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To remove yourself from the mailing list, please log into Adultfriendfinder.com with your handle and password. *************************************************************** From bbrad25 at qwest.net Sun Jul 1 03:59:41 2001 From: bbrad25 at qwest.net (Brad Bradberry) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 04:59:41 -0600 Subject: Key West cops arrest editor Message-ID: How in hell did you move Key West to Cuba without the rest of the country finding out? You guys would make Fidel Castro proud. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Sun Jul 1 07:59:45 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 07:59:45 -0700 Subject: Prying Eyes Message-ID: Looks like we need to build some small radio-controlled blimps with paint spray guns to blind these suckers. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 06:21:40 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:21:40 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Prying Eyes of Tampa Police Message-ID: <3B3F23E4.FC432FB1@ssz.com> I think they're trying to make Reno feel at home and let her know she's got lots of support for the governorship... http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/01/0348226.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sun Jul 1 09:01:49 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:01:49 -0700 Subject: Prying Eyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:59 AM -0700 7/1/01, A. Melon wrote: >Looks like we need to build some small radio-controlled blimps >with paint spray guns to blind these suckers. I urge people, even melons and melon-traffickers, to include context for their comments. Many of us filter out some of the spammers here, so "one-line-repartee" a la chat rooms is not very useful. (Sadly, one-line repartee is becoming the norm for more and more fora.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From makir2 at home.com Sun Jul 1 08:32:12 2001 From: makir2 at home.com (Daniel Morin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:32:12 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000a01c10243$014136c0$0a794718@ss.shawcable.net> Yes I am an agent of Satan....but my duties are largely ceremonial.... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Jul 1 10:00:55 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:00:55 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" Message-ID: Here's an item about the Feds banning certain types of biological research. More evidence that government is flexing its muscles to interfere in research it has decided is not acceptable...or that it is not controlling for its own purposes. I wonder what Thomas Jefferson, a noted amateur scientist, would have thought of the federal government raiding labs and subpoening records when it decided it wanted to? His cryptography research, for example? So much for the real spirit of the First and Fourth, amongst others. (Note: I realize, for you lawyers, that the Fourth was technically met, in that a valid court order was issued for the subpoenas and raids. It still sucks, though, to use a nonlegal term. Warrants and orders are issued freely. Fishing expeditions is what they really are. There's not a single one of us who could not have our possessions and papers sifted through if one of tens of thousands of prosecutors and investigators decided they wanted to. So much for "secure in one's papers and possessions" and "a man's home is his castle.") I'll include a few paragraphs, marked with << >> enclosers. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/010709/usnews/clone.htm <> Comment: So, someone who _says_ they are interesting in human cloning can face a subpoenaing of records and documents. Interesting. So much for free scientific inquiry. And what's the significance of the "secret lab" language? Was it just the "U.S. News" reporter's take on the situation, or does having a "secret lab" enter into the gubment's case? How long before we see _crypto_ treated the same way? For example: "For Joe Cypherpunk, developing digital money isn't just good science, it's an imperative. Not surprising, Washington disagrees. A federal grand jury in Sunnyvale, CA has subpoenaed telephone records and other documents. FCC, SEC, and FBI agents visited the secret lab recently and ordered any digital money experiments to cease. Says one official: "There's a timeout in force."" (Oh, so now we have "timeouts" for banned research? So much for another of the rights enumerated in the BOR, the right to a trial. Yeah, I know about temporary injunctions and restraining orders, given exigent circumstances, blah blah. This sounds more like the harassment and road block issue, though. A "crackdown," as the reporter notes below.) << The crackdown marks the first time that investigators have uncovered a secret lab tied to human cloning in the United States, government sources say. >> Oooh, scary! A "secret lab"! What, all labs are supposed to be public, registering with the government? (There is no evidence the lab is using more dangerous chemicals than are normally found in any hardware store, for example, so "public safety" cannot be a justification.) The article goes on to talk about Clonaid and how they are not violating any laws, but how they plan to leave the U.S. to avoid this kind of "raid" harassment. << The federal investigation was prompted by statements Boisselier made this spring, when she said Clonaid was just weeks away from being ready to clone a human being. On March 27, Boisselier received a letter from the FDA, warning that the company might be in violation of FDA regulations. A similar letter was hand-delivered to the office of Panayiotis Zavos, a fertility expert from Lexington, Ky., who also says he plans to clone a human.>> Yeah, and if I "claim" that I am "just weeks away" from being ready to release a digital money system, can I expect a raid? Is there no consideration of common sense, or are prosecutors just flunkouts in science who can't separate speech acts from actual violations of the law? I can see there may be public safety issues in cases where, for example, a credible group--leave the definition of credible aside for now--makes a claim that they are weeks away from completing their own privately-funded atomic bomb, for example. Or weeks away from completing a batch of nerve gas. Some variants of libertarians and anarchists would disagree even with this, but at least the point is arguable. The issue of whether human cloning research is so intrinsically sensitive or dangerous that it requires preemptive raids and fishing expeditions is a topic worth discussing. For now, I'm pointing out some of the disturbing constitutional issues. << UFOs. But it was the Raelians who really got the FDA's attention. For months, Boisselier has told reporters that she has three scientists and a physician trying to resurrect an 11-month-old infant-the deceased son of a former state legislator, whom the Raelians refuse to identify-through genetic regeneration. >> Again, science flunkouts are running the investigations. << Clearly, the agency is trying to flex its regulatory muscle and show Congress that it hasn't been asleep at the switch. FDA investigators have been knocking on the doors of people like Richard Seed, a Chicago physicist who made headlines three years ago when he announced his intention to clone a human. "I think their purpose was to frighten me, and they did," says Seed. >> Yep. So much for the rule of law, and of valid laws. Consistent with crypto actions, as when NSA agents told Jim Bidzos that if he didn't play ball and adopt Big Brother's plans, they could just have him run over in his parking lot. (Threats like this, which are credible and violent threats, are not prosecuted. Meanwhile, Keith Henson faces a year in prison for a joking remark about a "Tom Cruise Missile" aimed at a Scientology compound. Some country we live in, eh?) << ... Alex Capron, professor of law and medicine at the University of Southern California told Congress last month. Capron points out that the FDA is charged with regulating safety concerns only. >> Indeed, and banning research or raiding "secret labs"--especially those with access to classified UFO data from the Greys living in Area 51!--is NOT a function of a regulatory agency devoted to the efficacy and safety of drugs and foodstuffs. << Even if a law were passed in the United States, it could prove difficult to enforce because cloning operations are easy to hide. Zavos, for example, says he knows of at least two other groups quietly trying to clone a human. Would-be cloners need only basic lab equipment. "It's not like it's a magical, secret thing," says Mark Westhusin of Texas A&M University, who works on cloning animals. A ban may also simply encourage scientists to pursue their work abroad, as Boisselier plans to. Zavos says his team has already set up two clandestine labs overseas. >> Yep. All predictable trends. Blacknet has had an active human cloning special interest section for several years. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 08:15:14 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:15:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Prying Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Looks like we need to build some small radio-controlled blimps > with paint spray guns to blind these suckers. http://www.robotgroup.org Look under 'Projects' and then 'Blimp History'. There is at least one company that sells RC Blimps, unfortunately I can't lay my hands on a link...:( -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 08:56:30 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:56:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Key length and stopping time Message-ID: Q: If it becomes possible, as some recent physics research indicates, that in some situations time can be stopped or eliminated what would the implication be with regard to estimating the time to resolve key lengths be? In other words if it becomes possible to have dynamic physical systems which operate at least in some sort of phase space with no time axis what does 'life of the universe' really mean? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 1 11:02:52 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" Message-ID: <20010701180252.19261.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> >this, but at least the point is arguable. The issue of whether human >cloning research is so intrinsically sensitive or dangerous that it >requires preemptive raids and fishing expeditions is a topic worth >discussing. For now, I'm pointing out some of the disturbing >constitutional issues. Cloning taboo, as all other taboos exist because of the influence they may have on the powers that be. Individual identity is a basis for so-called "legal system" and law enforcement in general. While corporations and governments (as in "powers that be") are allowed group/communal identities, mere citizen-units are not. I think that there is a generic fear that powerful individuals (cloning is off-limits to wage slaves) would somehow become more powerful if they can copy themselves. Also, lot of the System is based on the strict reproduction control, individuals coming out in unapproved manner would mess that up. Can you imagine Tim May *brought up* by Tim May ? Horrible. But I don't think that it can be stopped. There is a strong incentive for corporations to breed obedient workers and for the state to breed servile citizens. That is much more economical and less risky than having to brainwash each and every new generation. Soon you'll see middle-aged bald and impotent managers asking the meekest and lowest paid 10-hr/day workers if they will donate some stem cells for a day off. Same thing will happen in the voting booths. Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 09:04:45 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:04:45 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - NOW elects new president - July 1, 2001 Message-ID: <3B3F4A1D.B32DE0B3@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/01/NOW.gandy/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 09:26:30 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:26:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Filtering 'spammers', one line comments, and Tim May Message-ID: You reap what you sow. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Sun Jul 1 11:27:23 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:27:23 -0700 Subject: We shall fight ............. Message-ID: I am in the U.S.A. I have been here since 1989 ... I believe in the Communist Revolution. I am in Miami and in the process of recruiting more members to my Communist Party unit here. I do it very openly .. I am not afraid of death. We must fight ... AND FIGHT NOW ... let's be Satans and we must FIGHT NOW ! http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/international.ra http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/sovietnationalanthem.ra I have told my story on the USENET bulletin board: alt.politics.org.cia --- read my messages .. I am the main contributor. Please, email my message to all Communist Party representatives around the globe .... WE SHALL FIGHT ... WE SHALL FIGHT TO THE VERY LAST MOMENT OF OUR SOULS, HEARTS AND MINDS ... ! Markku J. Saarelainen Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From tcmay at got.net Sun Jul 1 11:36:55 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:36:55 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:00 AM -0700 7/1/01, Tim May wrote: >Here's an item about the Feds banning certain types of biological >research. More evidence that government is flexing its muscles to >interfere in research it has decided is not acceptable...or that it >is not controlling for its own purposes. I wonder what Thomas >Jefferson, a noted amateur scientist, would have thought of the >federal government raiding labs and subpoening records when it >decided it wanted to? His cryptography research, for example? So much >for the real spirit of the First and Fourth, amongst others. I discussed several different issues related tot his raid/ban/UFO cult/etc. To separate some of the issues: 1. The basic issue of the constitutionality in these united States of "bans" on research, qua research. Whether the research is about cloning or cryptography or nuclear science, the issue of whether government has the constitutional authority to _ban_ research (as opposed to, say, exploding nuclear weapons or manufacturing nerve agents) is a basic one. 1A: Congress surely has the authority to bar the use of government funding in human cloning. The issue above is not about government funding, but whether they may suppress scientific research by individuals, universities, corporations, and other non-federally funded entities. 2. The issue of how "raids" and "subpoenas" and "visits" and "crackdowns" occur. This is related to the issue of warrants and subpoenas being increasingly easy to obtain, with many judges pre-signing stacks of warrants/orders to be used as LEAs see fit. In the case of this "secret lab" being "visited." there are Fourth Amendment and trespassing issues. 2A: Trespassing on corporate property has long been the norm for regulatory agents, without them seeking specific court approval. OSHA visits corporations (and even private institutions) to check on the height of seat chairs and the placement of safety showers. Fire marshals check for fire extinguishers and safety posters. Perhaps worst of all, IMO, "Child Protective Services" has the apparent right, they claim, to show up at a house or apartment and demand to inspect the premises. These are all cases where the letter of the Fourth Amendment is certainly not being followed, and the spirit is being obliterated. There is very little difference between what the Founders were concerned about, that the King's Men would randomly enter homes looking for seditious materials and troublemakers, and the current situations where the new instances of the King's Men can enter homes, corporations, and other private properties to look for politically incorrect materials. 2B: Copyright and anti-piracy is a related issue. Surprise audits of corporations, for example. (Hey, if I _suspect_ my neighbor has illegally copied a tape I lent him just for viewing, can I demand to inspect his house?) 3. The "chilling effect" issue. These raids and "timeouts" (their language) are used to harass and slow down researchers and other politically incorrect persons. The language is telling: "send a message," "signal our unhappiness," "order a timeout," "a shot across the bow," etc. These raids and subpoenas and "visits" are designed to intimidate in an extra-constitutional way. The Founders would see this as another case of the King's Men throwing their weight around. (We have seen this in crypto, where labs get "visits" by Men in Black from the Office of Export Control, the NSA, etc. We see fewer reports, at least reported here, of researchers being warned that their research could land them in trouble, but it probably still happens. ) 4. Lastly, the science and pseudoscience issue. This UFO cult was visited/raided on the basis of bizarre claims about their desire to clone a dead baby, with some weird mix-in cult beliefs. Where's the scientific credibility that they have the means and knowledge to do a real clone? All of these issues are part of the slippery slope of banning research. We are seeing a move toward an era of Forbidden Knowledge. It started with some limited areas of military research and extended into cryptography in the 60s and 70s (maybe some classifications before the 60s, too). Now it is being extended into biology. Sen. Feinstein wants "bomb-making instructions" banned. Sen. Lieberman has his own list of things he wants banned. My reading of the U.S. Constitution says that government may not ban information or limit the reading (research, thinking) activities of the people. And it says the powers of law enforcement are not to be used outside of legitimate court-ordered actions, with public trials and juries of one's peers. Using law enforcement to "send messages" and "order timeouts" and "fire a shot across the bow" is just not part of our judicial or legislative system. But since the Supreme Court has not even dared to revisit the Second Amendment limitations (of Miller), they are unlikely to face up to this slippery slope of increasing Thought Police activities. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From jdd at vbc.net Sun Jul 1 03:46:26 2001 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:46:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <00c801c10164$dbcd3260$0300000a@espol.com.pl> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, [iso-8859-2] A. 嚙踝蕭czak wrote: > Excuse me, do you know the firm in Europe which istall internet via > electric lines? As I recall, Norweb in the UK offered this service, or talked about offering it, 3-4 years ago. The idea was that already having wiring into homes would give them a major advantage in the market. Then they found that they were having serious problems with EM emissions as they expanded the service -- I believe that transformers were radiating massive amounts of noise, breaking EU regulations -- and, uhm, they weren't very good as an ISP. Their accountants did some calculations and the whole enterprise disappeared. > Arek, Poland > telephone: +48 604 890 008. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From jdd at vbc.net Sun Jul 1 03:46:26 2001 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:46:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <00c801c10164$dbcd3260$0300000a@espol.com.pl> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, [iso-8859-2] A. #1czak wrote: > Excuse me, do you know the firm in Europe which istall internet via > electric lines? As I recall, Norweb in the UK offered this service, or talked about offering it, 3-4 years ago. The idea was that already having wiring into homes would give them a major advantage in the market. Then they found that they were having serious problems with EM emissions as they expanded the service -- I believe that transformers were radiating massive amounts of noise, breaking EU regulations -- and, uhm, they weren't very good as an ISP. Their accountants did some calculations and the whole enterprise disappeared. > Arek, Poland > telephone: +48 604 890 008. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 09:51:30 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:51:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Zero Knowledge Identity Proofs (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:00:26 -0700 From: Marc Branchaud To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Re: Zero Knowledge Identity Proofs Well, I can't be sure that I'm not misunderstanding something either. For the most part, I agree with Dimitrios that challenges with proof of origin are part of the solution to Mafia Fraud attacks. My main point is that I don't think simply signing the challenge is enough. Let me try to restate things symbolically. Nominally, in the naive case, Dave would present Alice with a challenge, X, and Alice would transform & return the challenge: X'. This, as we know, is vulnerable to the Mafia Fraud. What I believe Dimitrios is proposing is for Dave to present both the challenge and a signature on the challenge: {X, S_dave(X)}. Then, Alice would verify that the signature corresponds to the person she thinks she's talking to, and if so she can return the transformed challenge X'. I'm essentially contending that Dave needs to verify that Alice did indeed see the challenge & signature he presented. Consider Mafia Fraud against the above scenario. Dave presents {X, S_dave(X)} to Carol, who forwards it to Bob. Now, Bob can re-sign the challenge himself, and present {X, S_bob(X)} to Alice. Alice will happily verify that the challenge comes from Bob, and return X' to Bob, who then passes it to Carol & then on to Dave. The fraud is successful, because Dave can't tell that Alice saw Bob's signature on the challenge and not his own. So the X' that Alice computes must be a function f(X, S_dave(X)) on both the challenge and the signature. (If, in the naive case, X'=S_alice(X), then to truly prevent the fraud we need X'=S_alice(X,S_dave(X)).) Now the fraud fails because Alice would compute X'=f(X, S_bob(X)), and so Dave (not Alice) would detect the fraud. So it's not enough for Dave to simply sign the challenge & for Alice to verify that signature. Alice must prove to Dave that she saw his signature and not somebody else's. BTW, without giving it any thought, I believe this scheme is safe against replay attacks (because Dave generates a new challenge every time). Does anybody have any thoughts about that? Marc --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Jul 1 08:57:33 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aluminum underwear, pants, suitcases illegal in CO stores Message-ID: <200107011557.LAA16758@www6.aa.psiweb.com> That article on Florida cameras was horrifying. ---- Aluminized Pants, 15 ounce Rayon, Kevlar. Thread, Large, 32 inch Inseam Length: http://www.grainger.com/images/products/5t323.jpg http://www.grainger.com/images/products/5t338.jpg http://www.grainger.com/images/products/1e006.jpg You can pull up the main URL and type the '5t323' number in the search box for the full page. ---- http://www.gazette.com/archive/01-06-27/daily/top4.html # # Would-be shoplifters foiled # # Sporting aluminum underwear illegal under new law # By Bill McKeown/The Gazette # # If you're thinking about going to the mall in that snappy # aluminum-lined underwear in the back of your dresser drawer, # think again. # # Beginning Sunday, it will be illegal in Colorado to wear aluminum # underwear. # # OK, there's a caveat. You can wear aluminum briefs and lingerie # as long as it's for personal amusement - but not if it is to # help steal by foiling stores' anti-shoplifting devices. # # The new law, surely the oddest of the dozens coming out of this # season's legislative session, is no laughing matter ... really. # # "This is serious business," said Sen. Stephanie Takis, D-Aurora, # one of the bill's sponsors. "We have laws against using crowbars # as theft devices, but if you were lining your underwear with # aluminum foil, that was not a crime." # # And by golly, said Takis, it should be. She cited several # Denver-area malls that have caught shoplifters with aluminum-lined # shopping bags and even the so-called "iron pants" and could do # nothing to stop it. # # Steve Miller, an attorney with the Legislative Council, helped # draft the bill: "I don't know if it was the highlight of my # career, but I got the assignment." # # Miller said the bill went through several evolutions - "or # devolutions depending on your viewpoint" - before it received # Gov. Bill Owens' approval. # # Essentially, it makes it a misdemeanor to make, wear or know # others are wearing aluminum underwear if they intend to use it # to fool stores' theft-protection devices. Those devices # electronically sense when merchandise leaving the store hasn't # been handled by a cashier, and foil can interfere with that # detection. # # Miller said the new law also gives store employees civil and # criminal immunity if they stop shoppers who crackle when they # walk. ---- > Beginning Sunday, shoplifting should become a much riskier business in Colorado. > "Don't walk into a store with the idea you can shield and steal," says JoAnn Groff, > president of the Colorado Retail Council and an enthusiastic supporter of a new law to > crack down on shoplifters. > > Under House Bill 1221, anyone walking into a store with a bag or coat lined with aluminum > foil -- or any other device aimed at eluding anti-shoplifting devices -- can be charged > with a Class 1 misdemeanor carrying carries a penalty of up to 24 months in jail and a > $5,000 fine. > > "It gives us another very important tool in prosecuting shoplifters," Groff explained. > "With this law in effect, we don't have to wait until they take something out of a store." >... > But the law that Groff fought for during the past legislative session is one geared to > make life more difficult for shoplifters. > > Groff won't outline the devices used to trick anti-theft detectors at store doors... From bear at sonic.net Sun Jul 1 12:38:10 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >Yeah, and if I "claim" that I am "just weeks away" from being ready >to release a digital money system, can I expect a raid? Is there no >consideration of common sense, or are prosecutors just flunkouts in >science who can't separate speech acts from actual violations of the >law? Your point is well taken; however, it is simply pragmatic that when one is mere weeks away from releasing a digital money system, given the current legal environment, one MUST NOT say so. In order to maintain anonymity in the current legal environment, a digital money system will have to be independent of all nation states -- hence, not overtly tied to nor created by any known organization or person. This presents major logistical difficulties for the idea of a "unified" system with a single currency; it becomes very difficult for an issuing authority to "redeem on demand" without becoming known. The difficulties are different for the "every member a mint" model, but by no means less. Bear From f775175616 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 1 13:55:52 2001 From: f775175616 at hotmail.com (f775175616 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 告訴你如何打手機不計費！如何上網不用錢！！．．．．．．告訴你如何打手機不計告訴你如何打手機不計費！如何上網不用錢！！．告訴你如何打手機不計費！如何上網不用錢！！．． Message-ID: <200107012055.NAA15891@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 1 12:23:56 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 14:23:56 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Eco-Terrorism Message-ID: <3B3F78CC.E5237DA7@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/science/01/07/01/1634213.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Jul 1 13:04:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:04:22 -0400 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 10:00:55AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010701160422.A4441@cluebot.com> Also see this editorial: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1963-2001Jun29.html THOUGH STILL publicly wavering on whether to support funding for stem cell research, the Bush administration has begun wading into the tangle of issues that accompany the new reproductive technologies. A health official testifying before Congress last month signaled the administration's support for a bill to ban all human cloning. 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Sincerely, Sean Morry Otterho Marketing Group streamcurve at asus.net -------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Link Crafter. You can get info about how to get Link Crafter for free by emailing the sender of this message. From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Sun Jul 1 17:24:27 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 17:24:27 -0700 Subject: We shall fight ............. Message-ID: My flag ... the real story of this is that I had the large Red Soviet Flag on my wall in Lappeenranta, Finland, while studying, but some people stole it from me in 1987 .... I received it in the special delivery from Moscow in 1986 .. I am very proud of my flag ... Today .. my flag is being brought to places in Germany, Sweden, USA, Austria and around the world ... I love my flag .... and I proudly shall pull it up and let people see my real flag .. I have lived for 14 under cover ... I am the real KGB agent ... have been since my childhood ... http://www.multimediapalace.com/flags/s/su-flag1.gif http://www.okay.com/realmedia/sovanthm.ram Markku J. Saarelainen Miami, USA -- On Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:27:23 Markku Saarelainen wrote: > > I am in the U.S.A. I have been here since 1989 ... I believe in the Communist Revolution. > > I am in Miami and in the process of recruiting more members to my Communist Party unit here. I do it very openly .. I am not afraid of death. > > We must fight ... AND FIGHT NOW ... let's be Satans and we must FIGHT NOW ! > >http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/international.ra > > http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/sovietnationalanthem.ra > > I have told my story on the USENET bulletin board: alt.politics.org.cia --- read my messages .. I am the main contributor. > > Please, email my message to all Communist Party representatives around the globe .... WE SHALL FIGHT ... WE SHALL FIGHT TO THE VERY LAST MOMENT OF OUR SOULS, HEARTS AND MINDS ... ! > >Markku J. Saarelainen > > > > >Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Sun Jul 1 17:34:00 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 17:34:00 -0700 Subject: We shall fight ............. Message-ID: My advice to all demonstrator in Austria .. do not attack police forces protecting buildings ... attack panelist and their support groups before any of these events .... Read the Art of War by Sun Tzu .. attack their plans and strategies .. do it before events .... be the Satan ... cause the HELL .. Markku J. Saarelainen -- On Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:27:23 Markku Saarelainen wrote: > > I am in the U.S.A. I have been here since 1989 ... I believe in the Communist Revolution. > > I am in Miami and in the process of recruiting more members to my Communist Party unit here. I do it very openly .. I am not afraid of death. > > We must fight ... AND FIGHT NOW ... let's be Satans and we must FIGHT NOW ! > >http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/international.ra > > http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/sovietnationalanthem.ra > > I have told my story on the USENET bulletin board: alt.politics.org.cia --- read my messages .. I am the main contributor. > > Please, email my message to all Communist Party representatives around the globe .... WE SHALL FIGHT ... WE SHALL FIGHT TO THE VERY LAST MOMENT OF OUR SOULS, HEARTS AND MINDS ... ! > >Markku J. Saarelainen > > > > >Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Sun Jul 1 17:40:04 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 17:40:04 -0700 Subject: We shall fight against these bankers ... in all levels in Austria elsewhere .... Message-ID: Let's be the SATAN and CAUSE HELL ... THE REAL HELL .... .... Attack their plans ,... attack their support networks, attack their intelligence organizations .... forward your messages .... use guerilla warfare tactics and strategies ..... CAUSE HELL ... BE THE SATAN ..... TARGET STOCK MARKET .. MANIPULATE INFORMATION ... LIE, STEAL AND SO ON ... WE FIGHT TO WIN .... BE THE SATAN ... CAUSE HELL ... Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Sun Jul 1 17:44:12 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 17:44:12 -0700 Subject: We shall fight ............. Message-ID: I am willing to suggest that all demonstrators shall equip themselves with automatic rifles ... I have one .... and around 1500 bullets .... we shall fight ... WE SHALL WIN .... Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Sun Jul 1 17:53:57 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 17:53:57 -0700 Subject: My message to all these International Bankers .... I FIGHT AGAINST YOU !!!!! Message-ID: I am not afraid of death and I see it every day. I hope that you remember this, when you go to your bed every night or say "Night" to your children. I hope you remember people like me. I shall be the Satan ...... I do not care about you or your families in the same way you never cared about me or my 2-person family. Markku J. Saarelainen Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sun Jul 1 16:07:34 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 18:07:34 -0500 Subject: Aluminum underwear, pants, suitcases illegal in CO stores In-Reply-To: <200107011557.LAA16758@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: Regarding the criminalization of anti-surveillance devices aimed at thwarting retail theft protection systems....(foil-lined bags, etc.) There is a similar bill up in Texas. (I think I posted on this.) Actually, this was addressed by other state legislatures as far back as 1988. Meanwhile, DIY spyware is marketed on the Net with a clearly illusory alternative purpose. The security industry says it's a serious problem, but the criminalization of countermeasures gives me considerable pause. ~Aimee From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sun Jul 1 21:00:59 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:00:59 -0800 (PDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" Message-ID: <200107020302.UAA30739@user5.hushmail.com> >At 11:36 AM 7/1/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: >3. The "chilling effect" issue. These raids and "timeouts" (their language) are used to harass and slow down researchers and other politically incorrect persons. The language is telling: "send a message," "signal our unhappiness, " "order a timeout," "a shot across the bow," etc. These raids and subpoenas and "visits" are designed to intimidate in an extra-constitutional way. The Founders would see this as another case of the King's Men throwing their weight around. An eqally chilling response would be for a few terminally ill anarchists to wire up their home with explosives, announce they too intend to conduct human cloning experiments and wait for the no-know at the door. ks Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jul 1 20:40:24 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 20:40:24 -0700 Subject: compelled speech in texas In-Reply-To: <3B3D1100.B2C613B2@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010701204024.008cb6b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:36 PM 6/29/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Sec. 35.102. SOFTWARE OR SERVICES THAT RESTRICT ACCESS TO CERTAIN >MATERIAL ON INTERNET. > (a) A person who provides an interactive computer service to >another person for a fee shall provide free of charge to each subscriber >of the service in this state a > link leading to fully functional shareware, freeware, or >demonstration versions of software or to a service that, for at least >one operating system, enables the > subscriber to automatically block or screen material on the >Internet. You could simply tell them to edit their hosts table so that Evil domain names point nowhere. > (b) A provider is considered to be in compliance with this >section if the provider places, on the provider's first page of world >wide web text information accessible to > a subscriber, WTF is a "first" page in hyperlinked text? Unconstitutional *and* sloppy lawwriting. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jul 1 21:00:46 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:00:46 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: <20010701180252.19261.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010701210046.008cdb00@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:02 AM 7/1/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: >on the powers that be. Individual identity is a basis for so-called "legal >system" and law enforcement in general. While corporations and governments (as >in "powers that be") are allowed group/communal identities, mere citizen-units >are not. Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are natural clones. >I think that there is a generic fear that powerful individuals (cloning is >off-limits to wage slaves) would somehow become more powerful if they can copy >themselves. Its religious idiots for the most part, at least in the US. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jul 1 21:03:20 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:03:20 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010701210320.008d0640@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:36 AM 7/1/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >4. Lastly, the science and pseudoscience issue. This UFO cult was >visited/raided on the basis of bizarre claims about their desire to >clone a dead baby, with some weird mix-in cult beliefs. Where's the >scientific credibility that they have the means and knowledge to do a >real clone? A baby that died of a genetic defect well before the age of reproduction. They need a serious education in evolution... From tcmay at got.net Sun Jul 1 21:23:46 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 21:23:46 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010701210320.008d0640@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010701210320.008d0640@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:03 PM -0700 7/1/01, David Honig wrote: >At 11:36 AM 7/1/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >>4. Lastly, the science and pseudoscience issue. This UFO cult was >>visited/raided on the basis of bizarre claims about their desire to >>clone a dead baby, with some weird mix-in cult beliefs. Where's the >>scientific credibility that they have the means and knowledge to do a >>real clone? > >A baby that died of a genetic defect well before the age of >reproduction. They need a serious education in evolution... Sure. But not a raid by Big Brother. This is the crux. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From jd at fbi.gov Sun Jul 1 21:37:43 2001 From: jd at fbi.gov (John Doe #2) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:37:43 -0700 Subject: Aluminum underwear, pants, suitcases illegal in CO stores Message-ID: <3B3FFA91.6F62C9CF@fbi.gov> At 11:57 AM 7/1/01 -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >Aluminized Pants, 15 ounce Rayon, >Kevlar. Thread, Large, 32 inch Inseam Length: >http://www.grainger.com/images/products/5t323.jpg See also http://www.zapatopi.net/afdb.html And http://www.stopabductions.com/ ........ The great thing is they'll just think you're paranoid, chemically, instead of tempest/crypto paranoid. Unless you start talking. (Maybe even then :-) ........ Note that a simple magnet is capable of de-activating certain kinds of anti-theft tags. EDN has a recent article on how they (and other kinds) work. From jd at fbi.gov Sun Jul 1 21:54:05 2001 From: jd at fbi.gov (John Doe #2) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:54:05 -0700 Subject: National Association of Trucker/Guinea Pigs Message-ID: <3B3FFE69.E9EA7184@fbi.gov> At 11:36 PM 7/1/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Now this is highly cypherpunk-relevant. > >I hear the National Association of Truckers is electing a new >chief comptroller. Heh, the truckers beta-test the geographic surveillance gear before its pushed onto Joe Sixpack. (Their precious bodily fluids are also randomly sampled...) ...and the schoolchildren beta-test the video gear... The former tolerate it as conditions of work on public roads, the latter have no choice. From jd at fbi.gov Sun Jul 1 23:17:39 2001 From: jd at fbi.gov (John Doe #2) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 23:17:39 -0700 Subject: stop the person and determine their identity Message-ID: <3B401203.1D9D26BD@fbi.gov> http://www.sptimes.com/News/063001/TampaBay/Ybor_police_cameras_g.shtml Ybor police cameras go spy-tech If there is a resemblance, the computer will rate it from 1 to 10, giving out an audible "whoop whoop!" alarm for 8.5 and above. The officer will then contact others on the street by radio, Todd said, who will stop the person and determine their identity. If they are wanted, they will be arrested. If they are not, the situation will be explained to them and they are free to go. Since when can cops stop you on the street, when you're not committing a crime, and ask for ID? Because a computer gave them "probable cause"??? And in the 'needs organ harvesting' dept, from the same article "That's awesome," said Souders, 35, a caterer. "If you don't have anything to worry about, it won't bother you. As far as any invasion of rights -- if you're breaking the law, your rights are kind of dissolved." From declan at well.com Sun Jul 1 20:34:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:34:22 -0400 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: <20010701160422.A4441@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:04:22PM -0400 References: <20010701160422.A4441@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010701233422.B11904@cluebot.com> And a conservative view: For a Total Ban on Human Cloning Jun. 26, 2001 04:21 ET www.weeklystandard.com/magazine/mag_6_40_01/bottum_kristol_ed_6_40_01.asp -Declan On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:04:22PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Also see this editorial: > > http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1963-2001Jun29.html THOUGH > STILL publicly wavering on whether to support funding for stem cell > research, the Bush administration has begun wading into the tangle of > issues that accompany the new reproductive technologies. A health > official testifying before Congress last month signaled the > administration's support for a bill to ban all human cloning. [...] > > -Declan From declan at well.com Sun Jul 1 20:36:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:36:23 -0400 Subject: CNN.com - NOW elects new president - July 1, 2001 In-Reply-To: <3B3F4A1D.B32DE0B3@ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 11:04:45AM -0500 References: <3B3F4A1D.B32DE0B3@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010701233623.C11904@cluebot.com> Now this is highly cypherpunk-relevant. I hear the National Association of Truckers is electing a new chief comptroller. Perhaps Choate will be so kind as to oblige us with a link. -Declan On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 11:04:45AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/01/NOW.gandy/index.html > -- > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. > > Ludwig Wittgenstein > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 1 22:38:40 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:38:40 -0500 Subject: Tampabay: Ybor police cameras go spy-tech Message-ID: <3B4008E0.C557245D@ssz.com> http://www.sptimes.com/News/063001/TampaBay/Ybor_police_cameras_g.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Jul 1 22:39:08 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 01:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Misc Message-ID: <200107020539.BAA20513@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Choate on Eco-Terrorism: # http://slashdot.org/science/01/07/01/1634213.shtml While searching for 'fire unsolved "melt concrete"', I came across: http://www.landrights.org/ALRA.oregonian.eco-terrorism.htm The robotic blimp idea reminded me of a TV report I saw where someone is occasionally setting fires around the country using some sort of chemicals that burn very, very hot. It burned holes through some concrete building tops. A real mystery, and they didn't know what the chemicals were. No "cause" was involved, just the love of fire. But I don't remember the channel, and I can't find a trace of it using google. If anyone has heard of this let me know. Sounds like good blimp payload for radomes. ;-) ---- Found a lot of weird stuff while searching. ---- The melting point of concrete varies between 1800-25000C. Arcstarter: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/ Things to do with a 25000 Joule capacitor... Explode a hotdog using #24 copper wire and a large capacitor (pending) (did you know - a hotdog will dissipate 5 million watts at 20,000 volts???) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/jacko.html Melt a penny, WWW supported by NASA (USA military) http://wattwatchers.utep.edu/penny.html http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/06/13/speeder.DTL # # Speeder Clocked At -- 712 MPH?! # Wednesday, June 13, 2001 # # KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) -- A driver accused of going 712 # mph in a 56 zone says there must be some mistake that's nearly # the speed of sound. # # While he doesn't claim to be completely innocent, Lim Ang Hing # says his speedometer on his sedan goes only up to 161, The Star # newspaper reported Tuesday. # # In February, a taxi driver received a speeding ticket for # allegedly driving at 696 mph. Police said the problem is # probably a technical glitch. Barbicide: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1609480292 The Unix Haters Handbook http://catalog.com/hopkins/unix-haters/login.html There is this on the Department of Defense adopting StarOffice... http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2779806,00.html From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Jul 1 22:43:53 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 01:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jim Choate is a boob Message-ID: <200107020543.BAA06235@www3.aa.psiweb.com> %From: Jim Choate %Subject: Tampabay: Ybor police cameras go spy-tech # http://www.sptimes.com/News/063001/TampaBay/Ybor_police_cameras_g.shtml Listen, dodo, that was the main link in the slashdot article you linked to. Aren't you even reading the stuff you're posting here? From vab at cryptnet.net Sun Jul 1 22:47:00 2001 From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 01:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ANNC: Strong Distribution HOWTO Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cuirman at hotmail.com Sun Jul 1 19:23:25 2001 From: cuirman at hotmail.com (Jay Thomas) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 02:23:25 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 448 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amoles5066 at speedwayproducts.com Mon Jul 2 02:55:45 2001 From: amoles5066 at speedwayproducts.com (amoles5066 at speedwayproducts.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 02:55:45 Subject: Making $5K+ A Month Online? 5 Message-ID: <200107020557.NAA0000019911@www.gntalent.com.cn> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1234 bytes Desc: not available URL: From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 2 00:40:20 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 03:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Police photos Message-ID: <200107020740.DAA21018@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Found some funny stuff at funnysnaps.com. http://www.geocities.com/absea98/iphotopolewrap.html Great T-shirt! http://www.geocities.com/absea98/bombshirt.html From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 2 02:30:03 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 05:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Firms resisting the NSA's CALEA due to economy Message-ID: <200107020930.FAA01543@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Excerpt: # "In a packet world, somebody has to open the packet to look for # the information the FBI is seeking. Is the FBI going to do it? # We're not going to do it unless we are paid to do it. ---- http://www.zdnet.com/filters/printerfriendly/0,6061,2773783-35,00.html # # Unresolved Issues Dog Fed's Data-Tap Efforts # By Doug Brown, Interactive Week # June 13, 2001 8:33 AM PT # # # Rapid changes in communications technology threaten to make "a big mess" # out of the federal government's ambitious plans to weave wiretapping into # the fabric of the digital age, while a 1994 law grows increasingly # outdated. # # While parts of the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act # (CALEA) have already been implemented by phone and other communications # carriers, important areas of the law are being disputed in courtrooms and # mulled over by bureaucrats in the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the # Federal Communications Commission. # # One unresolved issue is how to handle packet data, a technology that was # in its infancy when the law was written, but has since emerged as the # leading method for transmitting voice and data in the Internet age. # # Communications companies carrying packet data have until Sept. 30 to # demonstrate that their systems will permit law enforcement officials to # conduct wiretaps. The industry has filed requests with the FCC to extend # the deadline. The FBI argues that extensions should not be granted. # Industry representatives say they need to figure out a way to separate # the packets' header data from content before they can implement any # standards, and the technological solution to the problem could take years # to figure out. It's up to the FCC to decide how to proceed. # # "We believe the packet issue is going to be around for a long time," said # Rodney Small, an economist in the FCC's office of engineering and # technology who handles CALEA. Industry has "decided it's too expensive to # do this, and they aren't sure what the privacy implications are," Small # said. "They are getting cold feet, legally and financially. Meanwhile, # these new technologies keep developing. . . . On the packet data 'issue', # there could be more petitions and it could be a big mess." # # An industry official agreed. "You will see more lawsuits or court # challenges. You'll certainly see carriers filing extensions on packet # data deadlines," said Grant Seiffert, vice president of external affairs # and global policy at the Telecommunications Industry Association, a trade # group representing many telecommunications carriers implicated in the # CALEA regulations. "In a packet world, somebody has to open the packet to # look for the information the FBI is seeking. Is the FBI going to do it? # We're not going to do it unless we are paid to do it. Who is going to be # looking over everyone's shoulders when we open up this information?" # # As the packet data issue looms, industry and civil liberties advocates # await signals from the Bush administration about how new regulators - # particularly FCC commissioners and the new FBI director - plan to # approach government surveillance issues. The agencies' decisions could # affect the depth of the debates. # # "Congress may be re-engaged," Seiffert said. "It's sort of a wait-and-see # game right now." # # "The FBI's credibility is at an all-time low here," said Barry # Steinhardt, associate director at the American Civil Liberties Union. # "Attorney General 'John' Ashcroft in the Senate expressed skepticism # about a number of government surveillance programs." # # An FBI spokesman defended work to date, saying: "There has been # significant progress made with the implementation of CALEA," and citing # technical solutions available for wireline and wireless segments of the # telecom industry. # # Some CALEA experts question some of what the FBI has managed to implement # already, charging that the agency installed sophisticated data collection # systems in communications networks that require expensive equipment to # decipher. # # "It's close to a scandal," said Stewart Baker, an attorney and former # general counsel at the National Security Agency who has been involved # with legal challenges to CALEA. "After industry has spent all of this # money, it turns out it's generating all of this data that has to be # translated by special-purpose machines that have to be bought by local # law enforcement. This may have the effect of pricing wiretaps out of the # market for a lot of smaller jurisdictions." # # Baker also said that while CALEA is supposed to apply only to voice # communications, the FBI has been "pretty aggressive" when it delves into # the packet data realm, "trying to persuade people who build data networks # that sooner or later they will have to provide wiretap capability." # # "A year ago, when times were good, everybody leaned towards the view that # it was better to not pick a fight with the FBI," Baker said. "Now it's # less clear that people have the funds to spend on development or to # purchase this stuff, so there could be a serious conflict over this and # there is certainly a difficult question for people who are building # Internet Protocol systems." 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This is the new Communist movement in Miami and I am leading it for success. http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/international.ra The proud owner of the Soviet flag .... Markku J. Saarelainen -- Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From alinewell at home.com Mon Jul 2 04:38:04 2001 From: alinewell at home.com (Networkers Together) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:38:04 -0400 Subject: With our TEAM, YOUR Selling Days are over! Message-ID: <28444200171211383940@home.com> Do you feel like you're ALONE on the NET? We have sponsors who teach you all the things that work the best and are always there for you to answer questions and help whenever you need them. If you are really SERIOUS about internet marketing and YOU want to make $6,000 in the next 30 days and $60,000 or more in the next 3 months, you can be on our winning TEAM. We'll tell you how to make $6,000 in 30 days and how to make AT LEAST $60,000 in the NEXT 3 months - WITHOUT selling, motivating, or "baby-sitting". YOU will work with QUALIFIED people who are just as committed as YOU are to succeeding without spending most of your day working online to get to the top. Click on: http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R39772_nms partner name: sailor Read the information and take the first step toward working with people who do THEIR part and let you do what YOU do best. Lets go to the top! Alli *************************************** -----------------------------------------------------------This email is NEVER sent unsolicited. THIS IS NOT "SPAM". You are receiving this email because you EXPLICITLY signed yourself up to our list with our online signup form or through use of our FFA Links Page and E-MailDOM systems, which have EXPLICIT terms of use which state that through its use you agree to receive our emailings. You may also be a member of a ZineDOM list or one of many numerous NetDOMINATION FREE Marketing Services and as such you agreed when you signed up for such list that you would also be receiving this emailing. Due to the above, this email message cannot be considered unsolicitated, or spam. ********************* From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 2 05:43:06 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:43:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > It would be fairly interesting to hear what those health risks are. If they > refer to risks to the people doing the experiments, I can't see any beyond > what normal parenting would bring. If they instead refer to the babies being > born/built, then we're seeing one serious extension of the concept of > "unborn babies". I believe this is an unclear reference to the fact that cloned animals have a significantly shorter life expectancy than their "parent". Of course, I may be [unknowingly] regurgitating the gubmint propaganda, and therefore be totally full of shit - who knows? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 2 05:52:27 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:52:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010701210046.008cdb00@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even > if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are > natural clones. Actually, I have been wondering about this statement. Does anyone have any data on whether identicals carry the same fingerprints? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Mon Jul 2 08:13:45 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: >Actually, I have been wondering about this statement. Does anyone have >any data on whether identicals carry the same fingerprints? Identical siblings do not carry the same fingerprints, nor retina scans. There are also larger-scale structures like ear cartilage that are nonidentical. Bear From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 06:27:26 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:27:26 -0500 Subject: ScienceNet - Do identical twins have identical fingerprints ? Message-ID: <3B4076BE.B1BBDB70@ssz.com> http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/Biology/9609/b00598d.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 06:28:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:28:14 -0500 Subject: Forensic-Evidence: Identification Evidence - Phenotype v. Genotype: Why Identical Twins Have Different Fingerprints Message-ID: <3B4076EE.1A05B579@ssz.com> http://www.forensic-evidence.com/site/ID/ID_Twins.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 2 08:38:11 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:38:11 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010702083811.007f2bf0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:59 AM 7/2/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >It would be fairly interesting to hear what those health risks are. If they Fucked up babies (manufacturing defective State property). I wonder what the error threshold was for using in-vitro on Louise Brown (IIRC) when that was first tried. From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 2 06:39:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:39:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ScienceNet - Do identical twins have identical fingerprints ? In-Reply-To: <3B4076BE.B1BBDB70@ssz.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/Biology/9609/b00598d.html Thanks! -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 06:39:21 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:39:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > I believe this is an unclear reference to the fact that cloned animals > have a significantly shorter life expectancy than their "parent". Of > course, I may be [unknowingly] regurgitating the gubmint propaganda, and > therefore be totally full of shit - who knows? They also tend to be larger than the original as well. Though there has been some progress in understanding why recently. Some other issues might be pointed at in the recent 'jellyfish monkey' experiments. Of the embryos, the only viable one didn't express the jellyfish gene, those that did - died. Take a look at Dougal Dixons 'Man After Man' book for some examples of what scares the hell out of them. A (mediocre) sci-fi book that has the social implications of 'adaptives' wended into the story is, Blueheart Alison Sinclair ISBN 0-06-105820-3 -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 2 08:48:09 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:48:09 -0700 Subject: Automated DB searches and the 1st In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010702084809.008d2ec0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:13 AM 7/2/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Amendment IV > >The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and >effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, >and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or >affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the >persons or things to be seized. > > >I contend that to run an automated search on a face taken by a >surveillance camera requires probable cause on each of the faces searched. >That there might be a criminal in a crowd is not sufficient probable cause >to run searches on all persons in the crowd. It violates their 'personal >security'. The counter to this perspective is that its been considered 'reasonable' to look at someone's face (in the optical) for a long time. It is not considered 'reasonable' (ergo, not constitutional in the US) to ask folks to remove their camoflage and attire, so the IVth protects citizens. Wear the groucho glasses as a protest. Whether active or passive observation using extra-optical radiation is a 'search' is currently a hot topic. (Passive, and typically civilian, observation includes checking out folks' underwear using IR sensitive cameras; Pol/mil observation includes active mm & xray irradiation and reception, and the recently disallowed passive IR observation of homes.) Would face-surveillance cams that snarfed IR and got your facial blood vessel patterns be unreasonably searching? From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 06:55:30 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:55:30 -0500 Subject: Alternative Zoology Message-ID: <3B407D52.5D43DAD9@ssz.com> http://www.roanoke.infi.net/~lhferree/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Mon Jul 2 08:55:31 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:55:31 -0700 Subject: My friend in Kremlin Tightens Grip on Gazprom Message-ID: http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/voices/realaudio/international.ra Kremlin Tightens Grip on Gazprom By Anna Raff Staff Writer The government grabbed control of Gazprom at a annual shareholders meeting Friday by securing a majority on the board of directors, a move that sets the stage for rapid and long-awaited reforms at the unwieldy gas giant. Government officials won six out of the 11 seats on Gazprom's board. Three seats went to company management, while Burkhard Bergmann, vice president of Germany's Ruhrgas, kept his seat, as did Boris Fyodorov, the outspoken representative of minority shareholders. The meeting also voted to effectively hand the government the power to fire the Gazprom chief executive, amending company bylaws to require only a simple board majority to force the CEO's departure. A unanimous board vote was previously required. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2001/07/02/001.html Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 06:56:30 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 08:56:30 -0500 Subject: Man After Man Message-ID: <3B407D8E.B4986EE8@ssz.com> http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/writing/afterman.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 2 09:02:02 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:02:02 -0700 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010702090202.008d5420@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:00 AM 7/2/01 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: >> >Cloning is far from a perfected technology - dozens of embryos are started >for >each one that comes to term, Actually this is true for most artificial fertilization techniques ---that's why they implant multiple embroyos, they expect a few to die. and many that are born have severe defects and >die young. A lot that don't die young are pretty darn unhealthy in various >ways. Of course, this is true for natural conception, where a lot of embroyos are resorbed, probably because they're fatal mutants. >The State has problems (heck - I have problems too!) with applying this >technology at a point in development where *most* of the resulting people >are likely to have severe physical and mental defects. Unlike animals, >you can't just slaughter the ones that don't work out. Bingo. >OTOH, the fact the State chose to stop a religious organization brings >chilling memories of Waco - "Is your religion FDA approved?". Yes. My earlier comments on just how wacky the religion is was not meant to minimize the fed visit. >then I have no problem with human cloning. Until then, I'd rather people >did not try it (though, unlike the State, I would not stop them). Agreed. Query: So if you were on the jury of a kid suing his rogue cloners for his defects, how would you decide? Would the religious aspect affect your judgement of liability? Criminal and/or civil liability? Can grown kids sue if they find their mother drank/smoke/snorted/etc and had reason to believe this bad? From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 07:07:29 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:07:29 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | The Dangers Of Protecting Free Speech Message-ID: <3B408021.512A9B4A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/07/02/1221209.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 07:13:20 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:13:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Automated DB searches and the 1st Message-ID: Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I contend that to run an automated search on a face taken by a surveillance camera requires probable cause on each of the faces searched. That there might be a criminal in a crowd is not sufficient probable cause to run searches on all persons in the crowd. It violates their 'personal security'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 07:41:11 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:41:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: <20010702101201.A5531@cluebot.com> Message-ID: > > On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > > > > > Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even > > > if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are > > > natural clones. All children are 'natural' clones (as if one could have an unnatural anything - creepy religous zealotry that), the only question is what percentage. Identical twins are 100% identical 'clones' but only 50% identical clones with each parent (and 25% for each grandparent). The entire 'clone' issue is nothing more than muddy religous thinking. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Mon Jul 2 09:46:08 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:46:08 -0700 Subject: Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews Message-ID: Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews ...... I believe that Iran and Iraq should unite against Jews and attack ... Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 07:47:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:47:44 -0500 Subject: Quantum Mechanics' New Horizons Message-ID: <3B408990.1900418A@ssz.com> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,44891,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 07:53:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:53:28 -0500 Subject: NEWS - Cause & Effect? Message-ID: <3B408AE8.47D9AADC@ssz.com> I've always said most people have no real understanding of 'cause and effect'... http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010602091304data_trunc_sys.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 07:55:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:55:24 -0500 Subject: OPT: Linux Today - NYTimes: The Land of Monopolies Message-ID: <3B408B5C.2914F628@ssz.com> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-07-01-011-21-OP-MS -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 1 23:59:18 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:59:18 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >Despite warnings from scientists who say such practices are fraught with >potential health risks, some Raelians have built a secret U.S. laboratory >and vowed to create the first human clone this year. It would be fairly interesting to hear what those health risks are. If they refer to risks to the people doing the experiments, I can't see any beyond what normal parenting would bring. If they instead refer to the babies being born/built, then we're seeing one serious extension of the concept of "unborn babies". The GE scare has religious morality, ignorance and fear of the unknown written all over it. >Food and Drug Administration agents visited the lab recently and ordered >any human cloning experiments to cease. Makes one wonder whether babies are Food or Drug. Just as one has a hard time telling which one religious sects are, Alcohol, Tobacco or Firearms. >Oooh, scary! A "secret lab"! What, all labs are supposed to be public, >registering with the government? (There is no evidence the lab is using >more dangerous chemicals than are normally found in any hardware store, >for example, so "public safety" cannot be a justification.) But see, once they've done with cloning, they'll crave for more. Soon they'll be doing gene splicing and whatnot. Then we'll have a swarm of newly born \bermenschen running around, wreaking havoc. The final days are coming, there will be Judgment... >Is there no consideration of common sense, or are prosecutors just >flunkouts in science who can't separate speech acts from actual violations >of the law? Actually I think the law prohibits research targeted at cloning in addition to cloning itself. All the same, it's bad law. >The issue of whether human cloning research is so intrinsically sensitive >or dangerous that it requires preemptive raids and fishing expeditions is >a topic worth discussing. The hysteria surrounding gene manipulation is weird all over. I've never even seen proper assessments of threats beyond the problems created by large monocultures of genetically engineered plant species, the effects on third world economies of patented crops and allergic reactions to unexpected foreign proteines in foodstuffs. This is hardly the sort of stuff to cause one to reach for the gun, and could be dealt with on the market. The only real threat I can see in cloning humans is the risk of fucking the baby up for good, and somehow it is quite difficult to see a) how that would happen if you're just doing a competent clone job and b) how one justifies preemption of the research since the mistakes have yet to be made. ><and a physician trying to resurrect an 11-month-old infant-the deceased >son of a former state legislator, whom the Raelians refuse to >identify-through genetic regeneration.>> "Resurrect"? That is one serious piece of loaded lingo -- the next thing they'll be doing now is slipping in spiritual advice. ><< Even if a law were passed in the United States, it could prove >difficult to enforce because cloning operations are easy to hide. It seems that they're making scientists into the bad guys. Science flunkouts indeed, having a fit of envy. They really should understand that in a free country, researchers have no reason to explicitly hide their operations, or to sneak around cloning babies. "Are you, or have you ever been, a Biologist?" Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From declan at well.com Mon Jul 2 07:12:01 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:12:01 -0400 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 07:52:27AM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20010701210046.008cdb00@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20010702101201.A5531@cluebot.com> Why not do a search? http://www.google.com/search?q=identical+twins+matching+fingerprints -Declan On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 07:52:27AM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > > > Get a grip. Any infant born is currently treated as an "individual", even > > if they are accompanied by identical siblings ---identical twins are > > natural clones. > > Actually, I have been wondering about this statement. Does anyone have > any data on whether identicals carry the same fingerprints? > > -- > Yours, > J.A. Terranson > sysadmin at mfn.org > > If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they > should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: > Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of > unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in > the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and > elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire > populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... > This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States > as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. > > The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, > associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of > those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the > first place... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 2 07:13:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:13:31 -0400 Subject: Jim Choate is a boob In-Reply-To: <200107020543.BAA06235@www3.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 01:43:53AM -0400 References: <200107020543.BAA06235@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010702101331.B5531@cluebot.com> This Subject: line is a trifle redundant. -Declan On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 01:43:53AM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > %From: Jim Choate > %Subject: Tampabay: Ybor police cameras go spy-tech > # http://www.sptimes.com/News/063001/TampaBay/Ybor_police_cameras_g.shtml > > Listen, dodo, that was the main link in the > slashdot article you linked to. > > Aren't you even reading the stuff you're posting here? From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Mon Jul 2 10:16:20 2001 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:16:20 -0700 Subject: USA IS TYRANNY Message-ID: When Chirac says .. this is the victory of law over tyranny ... let me tell you my story .. THE US GOVERNMENT ATTACKED ME, STOLE MY HOUSE, STOLE 70K USD AND HURT ME, ALTHOUGH I HAD NEVER DONE ENYTHING WRONG, BAD OR ILLEGAL .. ONLY COMMUNICATE ON THE INTERNET ... U.S GOVERNMENT IS CRIMINAL, TYRANNY AND VIOLENT ... I HATE THE USA ..... AND BY THE WAY .. WHY DO YOU NOT PUT THOSE VIETNAM WAR PEOPLE TO THE TRIAL WHO KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE IN VIETNAM AND COMMITTED WAR CRIMES ... WHY WHY AND ONCE MORE WHY .... USA JUST KILLS PEOPLE ... ! -------- Jacques Chirac, who was also at the press conference. "This is a victory of law over violence, of democracy over tyranny. It sounds hope for justice and freedom in the world," he said. Western leaders have all hailed the Serbian government's move to hand over Milosevic to the international court, with the decision unlocking more than $1bn in international aid. http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0702/yugoslavia.html Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 2 07:18:02 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:18:02 -0400 Subject: World's smallest engine Message-ID: Great, an micro Wankel engine. Did anyone else share my first thought, that this would be just right as the power source for a laptop version of Babbage's Analytical Engine? (My second thought was that an itty-bitty steam engine would be more appropriate). I wonder what the limiting factor would be? I suspect that the cube/squared law is involved - as the parts get smaller they cool down too quickly to operate as an engine. Peter Trei > Subject: World's smallest engine > > Way cool tiny rotary engine for powering computers, > whatever. > > http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2001/04/02_engin.html > > -- > Harmon Seaver, MLIS From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 08:39:18 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:39:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Crypto Quotations (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:44:46 -0500 From: Udhay Shankar N To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Crypto Quotations Some light(?) reading... http://www.amk.ca/quotations/cryptography/page-1.html Udhay _____________________________________________________________________ Udhay Shankar N Iponics India Pvt Ltd http://www.iponics.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 2 08:00:36 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:00:36 -0400 Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" Message-ID: > From: Sampo Syreeni[SMTP:decoy at iki.fi] > > > On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > >Despite warnings from scientists who say such practices are fraught with > >potential health risks, some Raelians have built a secret U.S. laboratory > >and vowed to create the first human clone this year. > > It would be fairly interesting to hear what those health risks are. If > they > refer to risks to the people doing the experiments, I can't see any beyond > what normal parenting would bring. If they instead refer to the babies > being > born/built, then we're seeing one serious extension of the concept of > "unborn babies". The GE scare has religious morality, ignorance and fear > of > the unknown written all over it. > Cloning is far from a perfected technology - dozens of embryos are started for each one that comes to term, and many that are born have severe defects and die young. A lot that don't die young are pretty darn unhealthy in various ways. The State has problems (heck - I have problems too!) with applying this technology at a point in development where *most* of the resulting people are likely to have severe physical and mental defects. Unlike animals, you can't just slaughter the ones that don't work out. OTOH, the fact the State chose to stop a religious organization brings chilling memories of Waco - "Is your religion FDA approved?". A lot of the rhetoric seems to be on the level of 'this is just soooo creepy'. It's worth remembering that the boundary of what's acceptable moves - back in the 60's Britain banned cornea transplants from cadavers, essentially for creepyness reasons (since repealed). When cloning has a high success rate, and embryos which are going to have problems after birth can be identified and culled at an early stage, then I have no problem with human cloning. Until then, I'd rather people did not try it (though, unlike the State, I would not stop them). Peter Trei From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 09:22:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Automated DB searches and the 1st In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010702084809.008d2ec0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > The counter to this perspective is that its been considered 'reasonable' to > look at someone's face (in the optical) for a long time. It is not > considered 'reasonable' > (ergo, not constitutional in the US) to ask folks to remove their camoflage > and attire, so the IVth protects citizens. Wear the groucho glasses as a > protest. It is only 'reasonable' if you have probably cause. Let's take the example of the cop standing on the corner with a photograph (obstensibly the same as computer searches). That photo is of a particular person who has particular characteristics. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the person in the photo is a white, blonde, male. The police officer isn't going to stop blacks, hispanics, women, children, etc. However, the automated system does exactly this. They are not searching for a 'particular person' as required by the 4th, they are searching everyone for instances in the police records. Clearly non-conformal to the wording of the 4th. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 2 08:27:28 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:27:28 -0400 Subject: Misc Message-ID: > From: George at Orwellian.Org[SMTP:George at Orwellian.Org] [...] > Found a lot of weird stuff while searching. > [...] > The Unix Haters Handbook > http://catalog.com/hopkins/unix-haters/login.html > [...] > I've got a copy of the book - it's actually a fairly well-written critique of Un*x worship (pre-Linux). It's worth reading to get some perspective (and no, it's not pro-MS either - it's idea of a competing OS is VMS). Peter Trei From alqaeda at hq.org Mon Jul 2 11:31:40 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 11:31:40 -0700 Subject: Anarchist Golfing Association Message-ID: <3B40BE0C.9FCB54D1@hq.org> oooh, oooh, domestic terrorism, squirt squirt July 1, 2001 S.U.V.'s, Golf, Even Peas Join Eco-Vandals' Hit List By SAM HOWE VERHOVEK EATTLE, June 30 The fire at Joe Romania Chevrolet in Eugene, Ore., started just before 2:45 one morning in the spring. Nearly 30 Chevrolet Suburbans and Tahoes were destroyed in the blaze, the second time in nine months that vehicles in the dealership's sport-utility lot had been set afire. The fire at Ray A. Schoppert Logging Inc., in Eagle Creek, Ore., also occurred between 2 and 3 a.m. This one, on June 1, near the site of a disputed timber sale in a federal forest, burned three logging trucks. Sometime in the night of June 10, someone broke into a research farm owned by Seminis Inc., near Twin Falls, Idaho, and ripped out hundreds of genetically altered pea plants. These incidents share more than the fact that none has resulted in an arrest. All three appear to be part of what federal authorities describe as a growing pattern of eco-sabotage, or vandalism, that its anonymous perpetrators claim to have carried out in defense of the environment. Many of these attacks, which the authorities say are especially prevalent here in the Pacific Northwest, are relatively small-scale and fail to attract much attention. Many go unreported, for the companies involved are often reluctant to generate publicity that might make them a target all over again. But even if less noticed than major acts of eco-sabotage like the recent fire at a University of Washington genetics research laboratory, the vandalism has quietly reshaped life for many small businesses, forcing a need for safety measures that would have once been unthinkable. "We've had to beef up security so it looks like a prison around our greenhouses," said Crystal Fricker, president of Pure-Seed Testing Company in Canby, Ore., which grows all kinds of grass seed. The company installed a chain-link fence with razor wire, motion sensors and an alarm system after vandals broke into greenhouses on its 110-acre property last June. The intruders destroyed several research projects, stomped on the grass, spray-painted slogans like "Nature bites back" and left behind golf balls marked with the letter A, the international anarchists' symbol. Pure-Seed was apparently singled out because of its experiments with a genetically modified form of grass that could be used for putting greens on golf courses. A few days after the incident, an e- mail message from a sender identifying itself as the Anarchist Golfing Association claimed responsibility for the vandalism, which caused roughly $500,000 in damage. "Grass, like industrial culture, is invasive and permeates every aspect of our lives," the message said. "While the golf trade journals claim that `golf courses provide suitable habitat for wildlife,' we see them as a destroyer of all things wild." http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/01/national/01ECO.html?pagewanted=all From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 10:05:29 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:05:29 -0500 Subject: The Register - Verified: you can get anybody you want kicked off Hotmail Message-ID: <3B40A9D9.ABA4316E@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20106.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 10:11:38 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:11:38 -0500 Subject: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Message-ID: <3B40AB4A.524D62E@ssz.com> http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/today/business_b3048022d12c103b0034.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From info at giganetstore.com Mon Jul 2 04:18:10 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:18:10 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Redes_em_casa_e_no_escrit=F3rio?= Message-ID: <007f61118110271WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Comunica癟瓊o com e/ou sem fios entre os seus PC織s Mais uma vez a giganetstore.com vem disponibiliza-lhe uma linha de produtos que poder瓊o optimnizar as comunica癟繭es entre os seus PC織s em casa e no escrit籀rio. Placa de Rede Adaptec SCSI 32 Bit 18.900 ($) Poupe 21% Card Bus 32 Bit 49.900 ($) Poupe 20% Airport Base Station 89.900 ($) Poupe 11% Compact Card 39.900 ($) Poupe 12% para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 10:20:18 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:20:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Press Release List] IBM and Zero-Knowledge Systems: A shared Vision For Privacy (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:42:08 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu, e$@vmeng.com, cryptography at wasabisystems.com, mac-crypto at vmeng.com Subject: [Press Release List] IBM and Zero-Knowledge Systems: A shared Vision For Privacy --- begin forwarded text From 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com Mon Jul 2 09:26:02 2001 From: 1.10198689.-13 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor) Date: 2 Jul 2001 12:26:02 -0400 Subject: Win $25,000 in the Multex Investor Challenge! Message-ID: <0d1210226160271MINLIST1@multexinvestornetwork.com> ********************************************************************* As a registered Multex Investor member, we will occasionally contact you with special opportunities. To unsubscribe to this or any other exclusive offers, please see the bottom of this message. ********************************************************************* Dear Multex Investor Member, The Multex Investor Challenge is gearing up for the Summer Edition. 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You may also unsubscribe on the account update page at: http://www.multexinvestor.com/edituinfo.asp =================================================================== Please email advertising inquiries to us at: mailto:advertise at multex.com. From jd at fbi.gov Mon Jul 2 12:41:49 2001 From: jd at fbi.gov (John Doe #2) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:41:49 -0700 Subject: Iran and Iraq has a common enemy Message-ID: <3B40CE7D.23D1EE46@fbi.gov> At 09:46 AM 7/2/01 -0700, Markku Saarelainen wrote: > >Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews ...... I believe that Iran and Iraq should unite against Jews and attack ... What an original geopolitical thinker you are, Mr S. Brilliant. What is the arabic for Trinitite? Keep your KI close by... Remember McVeigh was crucified (albeit horizontally) for your sins... From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 10:43:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:43:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Austin Cypherpunks - July Physical Meet Message-ID: Time: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 Second Tuesday of each month 7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later) Location: Central Market HEB Cafe 38th and N. Lamar Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables. If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside the building proper. Identification: Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography" book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick. Contact Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 11:18:45 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 13:18:45 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Data hub aims to unclog Latin American jam - July 2, 2001 Message-ID: <3B40BB05.2381B467@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/07/02/latam.hub.idg/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. 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Christina From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 13:09:13 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:09:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [alg] OPT: Cryptography Quotations, page 1 of 2 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:56:41 -0500 From: Mick Reply-To: alg at austinlug.org To: alg at austinlug.org Subject: Re: [alg] OPT: Cryptography Quotations, page 1 of 2 * Jim Choate [010702 13:13]: > http://www.amk.ca/quotations/cryptography/page-1.html Munged this into a small fortune file if anyone wants it. http://global-enforcement.com/t00lz/crypto.fortune -- -Mick-too_much_time_on_his_hands OpenPGP info is in the X-.* mail headers -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: URL: From hmt at gncom.com Mon Jul 2 13:17:08 2001 From: hmt at gncom.com (Harry Tod) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:17:08 -0400 Subject: screen name Message-ID: <3B40D6C4.5FF0D370@gncom.com> Please send me the name I used as a screen name, in my July 2,2001 registration, thank you, Harry Tod From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 2 07:27:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:27:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: World's smallest engine In-Reply-To: <"F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E907FA@exna07.securityd yn amics.com"> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > I wonder what the limiting factor would be? I suspect that the > cube/squared law is involved - as the parts get smaller they cool down > too quickly to operate as an engine. My bets are the Sandia folks will be there first, with their (whether SOS or plain silicon) MEMS microturbine generator. I think they mentioned they hoped to scale power density beyond 30 W in a cm^3 volume. Otoh, such technology is prime candidate for powering military hardware in the field, so maybe perhaps that's why they suddenly went mum on it. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 2 17:23:02 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:23:02 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:52 PM -0500 7/2/01, Aimee Farr wrote: >Visionic's FaceIt was just successfully tested on ViA's wearable computer. > >------------------------------------------------- >I asked this question elsewhere a few days ago... >------------------------------------------------- > >Biometric data is electronic code that is separate and distinct from >personal information. > >[ ] T >[ ] F > >Explain your answer: > One reason I mostly ignore you is this habit of never writing readable essays, just either blithering incoherently or asking others to answer "test questions." (I dip into the Trash folder every few weeks just to see if you've been visited by the Clue Fairy. Not yet.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 15:34:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:34:48 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - 'Song of Solomon' spurs debate - June 29, 2001 Message-ID: <3B40F708.5F8CD8C9@ssz.com> http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/06/29/song.of.solomon.ap/index.html If kids don't come to grips with this sort of stuff as kids, how does anyone excpect them to handle it as adults? -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 15:55:31 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:55:31 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Milosevic to face U.N. court alone - July 2, 2001 Message-ID: <3B40FBE3.94509F77@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/02/milosevic.trial/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kamal_d_jain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 18:08:59 2001 From: kamal_d_jain at yahoo.com (Kamal Jain) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:08:59 Subject: Win a free Luxury Cruise with your family Message-ID: <200107021222.f62CMdx07457@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Jul 2 10:25:27 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 18:25:27 +0100 Subject: What's up with cyberpass? References: Message-ID: <3B40AE87.E582A697@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> I'm getting readable mail from both lne and cyberpass. Ken Brown "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > For a few days now, a growing (and now 100) > percentage of my cpunks email has consisted > of blank messages from > owner at cypherpunks.cyberpass.net > > >From the number and time distribution of the > messages, I suspect I'm getting one for each > posting to cypherpunks. > > Am I the only one who is seeing this? > > (Reply directly, since I'm not getting > intelligable mail from the list). > > thanks, > > Peter Trei > ptrei at rsasecurity.com From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 2 16:52:00 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Visionic's FaceIt was just successfully tested on ViA's wearable computer. ------------------------------------------------- I asked this question elsewhere a few days ago... ------------------------------------------------- Biometric data is electronic code that is separate and distinct from personal information. [ ] T [ ] F Explain your answer: ~Aimee From tsuruta at insi.co.jp Mon Jul 2 03:26:45 2001 From: tsuruta at insi.co.jp (Masafumi Tsuruta) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:26:45 +0900 Subject: About replay attck to RADIUS. Message-ID: <004301c102e1$7f1c1ad0$8300a8c0@tsuruta> Hello all. I have a question about RADIUS, including portmaster, especially authentication system. How RADIUS system protects his system and user's information from sniffers when the NAS sends some information including user's password which has eccrypted with MD5. I want to know the system against "replay attack" from attackers. If you vave any infomation about my question, please tell me. Thank you. Masafumi Tsuruta (from Tokyo) tsuruta at insi.co.jp From FrogRemailer at NoReply.Invalid.com Mon Jul 2 12:27:22 2001 From: FrogRemailer at NoReply.Invalid.com (Frog2) Date: 2 Jul 2001 19:27:22 -0000 Subject: Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews Message-ID: <0874D3DI37074.8940046296@frog.nyarlatheotep.org> Markku Saarelainen wrote: > > > Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews ...... I believe that > Iran and Iraq should unite against Jews and attack ... > \|||/ (o o) |~~~~ooO~~(_)~~~~~~~| | Please | | don't feed the | | TROLL's ! | '~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ooo~~' |__|__| || || ooO Ooo From 8y285844 at ms22.tisnet.net.tw Mon Jul 2 04:54:11 2001 From: 8y285844 at ms22.tisnet.net.tw (Ruby) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:54:11 +0800 Subject: =?big5?B?p+Sko6jsvdCmXsLQ?= Message-ID: <001c01c102ed$b8232420$b0bddf8b@oemcomputer> ∠雯蝡曆啗閬 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 2 17:56:15 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:56:15 -0500 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim's C&D letter: > At 6:52 PM -0500 7/2/01, Aimee Farr wrote: > >Visionic's FaceIt was just successfully tested on ViA's wearable > computer. > > > >------------------------------------------------- > >I asked this question elsewhere a few days ago... > >------------------------------------------------- > > > >Biometric data is electronic code that is separate and distinct from > >personal information. > > > >[ ] T > >[ ] F > > > >Explain your answer: > > > > One reason I mostly ignore you is this habit of never writing > readable essays, just either blithering incoherently or asking others > to answer "test questions." That is quoting the biometric industry's policy position. When I ask that question, most people usually turn to the question of 'what is personal information,'or call it a "trick question." The comments are often illuminating, in light of the fact this is the biometric industry's policy statement. If I was to merely ask: "do you agree with the biometric industry that...." I would not come by the insight I was after, or the analysis. It "loads the question." So, I posed the question from an oblique. > (I dip into the Trash folder every few weeks just to see if you've > been visited by the Clue Fairy. Not yet.) I see you haven't been visited by the Fed Fairy. Not yet. Put a bullet under your pillow. ~Aimee From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 18:09:23 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:09:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > Visionic's FaceIt was just successfully tested on ViA's wearable computer. > > ------------------------------------------------- > I asked this question elsewhere a few days ago... > ------------------------------------------------- > > Biometric data is electronic code that is separate and distinct from > personal information. > > [ ] T > [ ] F > > Explain your answer: Neither. The wording of the question indicates a deep ignorance of data conversion and data set analysis. I suggest a good study course in A/D data conversion techniques as well as statistical correlation analysis. "Biometric Data" is the conversion of analog parameters converted to digital data and stored. It is used under the premise that by applying yet another algorithm (as opposed to the data conversion mechanism) the 1-to-1 correspondance between data set and individual can be proven. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From plgn2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 20:24:18 2001 From: plgn2001 at yahoo.com (plgn2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:24:18 Subject: FLORIDA BEACH HOME FOR $129.95 ?? Message-ID: <200107030135.UAA19608@einstein.ssz.com> Florida Beach home $129 To see how you can receive a three bedroom, 2 bath, Octa-structure beach home, click here. From nobody at dizum.com Mon Jul 2 11:30:09 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:30:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews Message-ID: <7d7bcd0cb8d2545859c5e093dd697001@dizum.com> Markku Saarelainen wrote: > > > Iran and Iraq has a common enemy: Jews ...... I believe that > Iran and Iraq should unite against Jews and attack ... > \|||/ (o o) |~~~~ooO~~(_)~~~~~~~| | Please | | don't feed the | | TROLL's ! | '~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ooo~~' |__|__| || || ooO Ooo From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 2 18:46:58 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:46:58 -0500 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Choate: > > Visionic's FaceIt was just successfully tested on ViA's > wearable computer. > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > I asked this question elsewhere a few days ago... > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Biometric data is electronic code that is separate and distinct from > > personal information. > > > > [ ] T > > [ ] F > > > > Explain your answer: > > Neither. The wording of the question indicates a deep ignorance of data > conversion and data set analysis. I suggest a good study course in A/D > data conversion techniques as well as statistical correlation analysis. Tell http://www.ibia.org/privacy.htm that. > "Biometric Data" is the conversion of analog parameters converted to > digital data and stored. It is used under the premise that by applying yet > another algorithm (as opposed to the data conversion mechanism) the 1-to-1 > correspondance between data set and individual can be proven. See? It worked on Choate. Yeah, I know... ~Aimee From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Mon Jul 2 21:52:04 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:52:04 -0800 (PDT) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: <200107030354.UAA13383@user5.hushmail.com> On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:26:12PM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Someone is Usenet wants to hassle the cameras > with paintball guns. This might be a good activity to introduce anonymous betting pools. Non- lethal, not too controversial and close enough to home to matter. ks Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 2 18:14:15 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: <200107030114.VAA27351@www9.aa.psiweb.com> So, how extensive is the database? Just locals? If the person was never arrested, do they use DMV photos? http://www.baynews9.com/newsstory.asp?storyname=2001/June/30/ybor # # YBOR CAMERA FOLLOW UP # # Monday, July 2, 2001 In a follow up to a story we brought you # about new surveillance cameras in Ybor City, Bay News 9 would # like to apologize for an error in the on-line script. # # Police, using pole-mounted, remotely-controlled surveillance # cameras, can now scan crowds of people and feed their digital # images into a databank with the purpose of finding a match on # anyone with an outstanding arrest warrant. # # In our original report, Bay News 9 inaccurately reported that # the Visionics Corporation maintained the database. # # According to the company, the database is maintained by the # Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office and Tampa Police Department # and only contains images of those wanted on outstanding warrants. # # We apologize and regret the error. ---- Declan, how did you find the Tampa story? From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Jul 2 21:19:01 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:19:01 -0700 Subject: Prying Eyes Message-ID: Paint ball guns are too big and noticeable. Anyone have any ideas on a high powered squirt gun in a small concealable package -- like maybe CO2 powered from the same little powerlets they use for paint ball, feeding a tank in a fanny pack, up a flex tube in your sleeve to a nozzle in your hand. Shooting a fine stream allows easy aim correction, and you could even use the thing inside buildings more easily. Make it all plastic if possible, so to evade metal dectors. Could also fill tank with DMSO and nicotene and have a deadly weapon. Or just a knockout weapon. From inspiration at vsnl.net Mon Jul 2 08:55:00 2001 From: inspiration at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:25:00 +0530 (IST) Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <20010702155500.04C3D17DE3@mmb1.vsnl.net.in> God,grant me the strength to change that which I need to change,the patience to accept that which I can not change, and above all, the wisdom to know the difference. --St Francis Of Assisi ********************************************************************************** Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. ----Director, Fountain of Joy From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 2 18:26:12 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: <200107030126.VAA23573@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Someone is Usenet wants to hassle the cameras with paintball guns. ---- http://www.baynews9.com/newsstory.asp?storyname=2001/June/30/ybor # # Orwell wrote 1984 warning for Britain. It is truly spooky how close he # was to the truth, though a bit late in the time frame. # # No one expected it to apply, too, to America. Yet, here it is. It is # far more sinister than people realize. As one reader already mentioned # in one thread: " this can readily be used for people carrying guns." # That, and the identification of members of the NRA, JPFO, GOA, North # Caucus, CCOPS, RKBA, and instant notification of the street cop in the # vicinity, and we have a far more THOROUGH Tyranny than even the North # Caucus envisioned when it began warning the people and government some # years ago. # # Our question, this time: "how accurate are paint guns? Seriously. # Could a # good shot peg these cameras from the street below?" We have similar # cameras # in a towns in Georgia, watching traffic for people running stop # lights. How long before those cameras are silently hooked into this # network for face recognition? # # It's time for civil disobedience. # 1) Arm yourselves in anticipation of a governmental advance on your # firearms. # 2) Get paint gun specialists to try these cameras. # 3) WARN the governments, local, state and national, that we won't stay # put # for such tyranny as they envision. # Our warning: # http://www.geocities.com/north_caucus [ an extremely alarmed over gun rights site ] # # Ben Waldo # North Caucus of America # Florida Section From rick at nationalserviceco.com Mon Jul 2 21:26:41 2001 From: rick at nationalserviceco.com (Rick) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:26:41 Subject: FREE ELECTRICITY for homes Message-ID: <200107030428.f634SIx07019@ak47.algebra.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you interested in FREE ELECTRICITY? Are you tired of paying electric bills? Would you be interested in receiving FREE ELECTRICITY from The International Tesla Electric Company? A limited amount of people can receive a FREE ELECTRICITY GENERATOR at their residence. Act NOW! First come First serve. For details, send an email to rick at nationalserviceco.com and make your Declaration of Energy Independence today. ________________________________________________________________________ UCSA---Advertisment From rick at nationalserviceco.com Mon Jul 2 21:36:44 2001 From: rick at nationalserviceco.com (Rick) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:36:44 Subject: FREE ELECTRICITY for homes Message-ID: <200107030438.f634cMx07475@ak47.algebra.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you interested in FREE ELECTRICITY? Are you tired of paying electric bills? Would you be interested in receiving FREE ELECTRICITY from The International Tesla Electric Company? A limited amount of people can receive a FREE ELECTRICITY GENERATOR at their residence. Act NOW! First come First serve. For details, send an email to rick at nationalserviceco.com and make your Declaration of Energy Independence today. ________________________________________________________________________ UCSA---Advertisment From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 19:46:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:46:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > Choate: You really should learn some manners. > > > Explain your answer: > > > > Neither. The wording of the question indicates a deep ignorance of data > > conversion and data set analysis. I suggest a good study course in A/D > > data conversion techniques as well as statistical correlation analysis. > > Tell http://www.ibia.org/privacy.htm that. No, you tell them. It was your question after all. > > "Biometric Data" is the conversion of analog parameters converted to > > digital data and stored. It is used under the premise that by applying yet > > another algorithm (as opposed to the data conversion mechanism) the 1-to-1 > > correspondance between data set and individual can be proven. > > See? It worked on Choate. Yeah, I know... See what? That you and they are playing games instead of getting to the point. Typical lawyer crap. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 2 18:56:57 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zero Intelligence policy strikes again Message-ID: <200107030156.VAA13428@www1.aa.psiweb.com> [snipped] http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/2001/departments/2001_06_28/upfront_1.html # # "This was leading up to the Columbine time," Young said, referring to # April 20, the two-year anniversary of the Colorado shooting. "So any # type of rumor, any kinds of threats of joking, jestering or kidding, we # were following up on. This was one of those cases. If the kid makes any # type of threat with a weapon, and he has access, whether (it) belongs to # the parent in the home or not, they are automatically takeninto # custody." # # School police also found in Joseph K.'s locker and backpack more # "evidence:" a class report he'd been writing about the Holocaust, he'd # written for another class, answering the question: What's the biggest # problem facing schools today? Joseph K.'s essay focused on school # violence. # # KANGAROO COURT # # During a family court hearing the next day, Joseph K. and his # grandparents were only told that the teen was being charged with # "harassment." They received no paperwork detailing what prompted the # charges: They weren't even allowed to have a copy of the paper that # listed "harassment" as the charge. ---- Sorry about any dup emails, that'll be fixed soon. From roach_s at intplsrv.net Mon Jul 2 19:59:25 2001 From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:59:25 -0500 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010702215544.00b07970@mail.intplsrv.net> Can the program be thrown off with masks? If so, how about making some of those advertisement fans with the pictures of random people wanted for parking tickets on them, then walk through that end of town. Possibly better yet would be fliers, balloons, and bumper stickers. These could be given away to people in areas that don't particulary trust the local police anyway, or simply applied to cars of people who frequent areas such as the employee parking of the local court house. Either could be distributed to bars. Can the things be fooled by using black markers to add shadows where there should be none? Will painted on faces become the new rage in Tampa? I can just see people wearing "war paint", some to avoid the cameras, the rest because it's fashionable. At 09:26 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Someone is Usenet wants to hassle the cameras >with paintball guns. > >---- > >http://www.baynews9.com/newsstory.asp?storyname=2001/June/30/ybor ># ># Orwell wrote 1984 warning for Britain. It is truly spooky how close he ># was to the truth, though a bit late in the time frame. ># ># No one expected it to apply, too, to America. Yet, here it is. It is ># far more sinister than people realize. As one reader already mentioned ># in one thread: " this can readily be used for people carrying guns." ># That, and the identification of members of the NRA, JPFO, GOA, North ># Caucus, CCOPS, RKBA, and instant notification of the street cop in the ># vicinity, and we have a far more THOROUGH Tyranny than even the North ># Caucus envisioned when it began warning the people and government some ># years ago. ># ># Our question, this time: "how accurate are paint guns? Seriously. ># Could a ># good shot peg these cameras from the street below?" We have similar ># cameras ># in a towns in Georgia, watching traffic for people running stop ># lights. How long before those cameras are silently hooked into this ># network for face recognition? ># ># It's time for civil disobedience. ># 1) Arm yourselves in anticipation of a governmental advance on your ># firearms. ># 2) Get paint gun specialists to try these cameras. ># 3) WARN the governments, local, state and national, that we won't stay ># put ># for such tyranny as they envision. ># Our warning: ># http://www.geocities.com/north_caucus >[ an extremely alarmed over gun rights site ] ># ># Ben Waldo ># North Caucus of America ># Florida Section From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 20:17:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:17:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: More on Feds, Raelian cloning lab, and trying to , stifle , research In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010702224742.0249ccf0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I encourage folks on this mini-discussion thread to copy > cypherpunks at cyberpass.net. I'm taking the liberty of adding it since by > copying politech, Nat seemed to intend his message for general distribution. > At 09:59 PM 7/2/01 -0400, Nat wrote: > >Lastly, as the authors cited point out, it doesn't seem to be possible to > >tell whether a viable infant cloned mammal will survive till adulthood (in > >good health). Genetically diseased parents, on the other hand, can have > >the fetus tested for this disease- and aborted, if necessary. At any > >rate, at least they know what they're facing. Irrelevant. That's true of ANY child. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 20:36:31 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:36:31 -0500 Subject: OPT: Slashdot | On the Definition of a Hostile Network Connection? Message-ID: <3B413DBF.36B2E1F7@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/07/02/2138212.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 20:38:49 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:38:49 -0500 Subject: Scientists Manufacture Human Eggs Message-ID: <3B413E49.A712834E@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010702/aponline165219_000.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 2 19:49:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:49:07 -0400 Subject: FC: More on Feds, Raelian cloning lab, and trying to stifle research In-Reply-To: References: <3B40D295.6090401@nihidyll.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010702224742.0249ccf0@mail.well.com> I encourage folks on this mini-discussion thread to copy cypherpunks at cyberpass.net. I'm taking the liberty of adding it since by copying politech, Nat seemed to intend his message for general distribution. -Declan At 09:59 PM 7/2/01 -0400, Nat wrote: > > No, it's not. The risk in cloning is that of creating a human being with > > serious genetic defects, not of injuring existing human beings. This is > > identical to the risk in "permitting" people with genetic defects to > > procreate. I'm sure you oppose forced sterilization, which means you > > think the risk is worth it in one case, and not the other -- for a > > variety of reasons, perhaps good ones -- but please don't demagogue. > >How am I being a demagogue? Tim framed this as an issue of scientific >research. Human cloning has yet to be accomplished; any attempts >(especially on the scale the Raelians seem to be after) at this date will >involve much trial and error (and dead babies). That's entirely different >from issues of procreation. It'd be better addressed in this case as one >of religious freedom (though I doubt they'd be on stronger ground there >either). Perhaps in 20 years this will not be an issue, but right now >it's still medical testing on humans. > >I refer you to this: >Jaenisch, R, and I. Wilmut. Science, Vol. 291, Issue 5513, 2552-2552, >March 30, 2001 >Ian Wilmut is the creator of Dolly, FYI. > >Lastly, as the authors cited point out, it doesn't seem to be possible to >tell whether a viable infant cloned mammal will survive till adulthood (in >good health). Genetically diseased parents, on the other hand, can have >the fetus tested for this disease- and aborted, if necessary. At any >rate, at least they know what they're facing. > >-Nat From declan at well.com Mon Jul 2 19:52:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:52:09 -0400 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <200107030126.VAA23573@www0.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:26:12PM -0400 References: <200107030126.VAA23573@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010702225209.A18966@cluebot.com> Got a cite? Sounds amusing. -Declan On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:26:12PM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Someone is Usenet wants to hassle the cameras > with paintball guns. > > ---- > > http://www.baynews9.com/newsstory.asp?storyname=2001/June/30/ybor > # > # Orwell wrote 1984 warning for Britain. It is truly spooky how close he > # was to the truth, though a bit late in the time frame. > # > # No one expected it to apply, too, to America. Yet, here it is. It is > # far more sinister than people realize. As one reader already mentioned > # in one thread: " this can readily be used for people carrying guns." > # That, and the identification of members of the NRA, JPFO, GOA, North > # Caucus, CCOPS, RKBA, and instant notification of the street cop in the > # vicinity, and we have a far more THOROUGH Tyranny than even the North > # Caucus envisioned when it began warning the people and government some > # years ago. > # > # Our question, this time: "how accurate are paint guns? Seriously. > # Could a > # good shot peg these cameras from the street below?" We have similar > # cameras > # in a towns in Georgia, watching traffic for people running stop > # lights. How long before those cameras are silently hooked into this > # network for face recognition? > # > # It's time for civil disobedience. > # 1) Arm yourselves in anticipation of a governmental advance on your > # firearms. > # 2) Get paint gun specialists to try these cameras. > # 3) WARN the governments, local, state and national, that we won't stay > # put > # for such tyranny as they envision. > # Our warning: > # http://www.geocities.com/north_caucus > [ an extremely alarmed over gun rights site ] > # > # Ben Waldo > # North Caucus of America > # Florida Section From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 20:53:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:53:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: WoW Message-ID: TEST TUBE BABIES ---------------- TEST TUBE BABIES BABY MUTATION MACHINE FEELS GOOD HOME OF THE WHOPPER BABY FASTER FASTER FEELS GOOD OH I LOVE YOU OH I LOVE YOU OH I LOVE YOU OH RATS EAT GARBAGE BABY CHROMASOME CHANGE FEELS GOOD PLASMIC ERUPTION BABY EXPLODING MY BRAIN PIG IS A PIG ------------ NOW THIS SONG IS DEDICATED TO A SPECIAL KIND OF PERSON THE KIND OF PERSON THAT'S HIDING UNDER ROCKS AND IN CLOSETS WHEREVER YOU GO HIDING BEHIND A GUISE OF RESPECTABILITY THE COWARDLY JOURNALIST WHO HIDES BEHIND HIS TYPEWRITER EXPLOITING PEOPLE WHO CAN'T FIGHT BACK THE ASSASSIN WHO STRIKES PEOPLE BY SURPRISE THE SICKIE SADIST WHO HIDES BEHIND HIS POLICE BADGE TO COMMIT CRIMES OF VIOLENCE AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE WHATEVER ROLE THEY ARE PLAYING THESE CREEPS ARE ALWAYS THE SAME BECAUSE A PIG IS A PIG AND THAT'S THAT (ICHI NI SAN SHI) YOUR STINKIN' LIES ARE SO LAME YOUR STUPID IDEAS ARE THE SAME A PIG IS A PIG AND THAT'S THAT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE YOUR PHONEY POSE IS SO OLD YOU'RE JUST A PRODUCT FROM THE MOLD A PIG IS A PIG AND THAT'S THAT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE I CAN PREDICT WHAT YOU'LL DO 'CAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS LIKE YOU A PIG IS A PIG AND THAT'S THAT STUPID MEAN AND UGLY DOWN IN THE DIRT WHERE YOU GO LOWER THAN YOU YOU CAN'T GO A PIG IS A PIG AND THAT'S THAT BIG BROTHER'S WATCHING YOU YOU CAN DRESS UP IN DISGUISES YOU CAN TRY TO MESMERIZE 'EM YOU CAN SURROUND YOURSELF WITH FRIENDS WHO TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR BUT IN THE END NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO YOU WILL COME SHINING THROUGH 12 NOON ------- AS OF 12 NOON TOMORROW SAY GOODBYE TO THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT SAY GOODBYE TO: NEUTRON BOMBS AND CHEMICAL FOOD COWBOY POLITICS MAN ON THE MOON MURDER AND RAPE AND CHEMICAL WASTE POLLUTION AND DEATH HOME OF THE BRAVE RACISM TELEVISION CORPORATE GOD POLYURETHANE BREAKFAST FORMICA LUNCH INSIPID IDEAS AND COMFORTING RULES COLLAPSING CITIES ARCHAIC SCHOOLS SMALL MINDED PEOPLE THEY KNOW IT ALL BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING THE KKK BALL BHA BHT PROPYL GALLATE MSG DRIED CORN SYRUP TBHO DIPOTASSIUM PHOSPHATE WHOLESOME PRODUCTS FOR YOU GUM ACACIA HYDROGINATED OIL POTATO STARCH BRING TO THE BOIL STOP ---- STOP WHILE YOU'VE STILL GOT THE TIME LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO YOURSELF STOP WHILE YOU'VE STILL GOT THE TIME LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO YOURSELF STOP WITH THE RAPE OF THE EARTH YOU WERE NOT MADE FOR THIS STOP WITH YOUR CAMPAIGN OF HATE STOP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE THE BELL TOLLS THE BELL TOLLS BRINGING THE MOMENT OF TRUTH RINGING ITS WARNING IT'S RINGING THE MOMENT OF TRUTH WAKE-UP WAKE-UP WAKE-UP WAKE-UP JUST LIKE ON TV --------------- BURNING FLAMES ON THE OCEAN SOLDIERS MARCHING ON LOS ANGELES GLACIERS COVER THE DESERT MICRO-ORGANISMS IN THE BREEZE GIANT APE-LIKE INVADERS SWIM THE RIVER TO NEW YORK MASSIVE GLOBAL ERUPTIONS PANIC SPREADING IT WILL NOT STOP HEY AIN'T IT JUST LIKE ON TV HEY AIN'T IT WHAT YOU WANTED TO SEE HEY NOW ALL YOUR DREAMS HAVE COME TRUE HEY AND ALL YOUR NIGHTMARES TOO THE DAMNED ---------- BLACK VISIONS FROM THE SATELLITE SKY DEAF EARS HEAR NOT THEIR CRIES FAT JACKALS HOWL AT THE MOON FLIES BUZZING PLAYING DEATH'S TUNE NIGHT ENDS BUT THE SUN IT DON'T RISE TOMBS OPEN AND THE DEAD THEY WILL RISE BLACK MARKET BUYS YOUR SOUL REAL CHEAP NO ESCAPING WHAT YOU SOW YOU WILL REAP PRISONERS OF THE DAMNED FIND ANOTHER LAND PLANET OF THE LOST LAND OF FIRE AND FROST PRISONERS OF THE DEAD FEAR THE UNKNOWN DREAD TIDAL WAVES AT SEA SET THE SERPENTS FREE COUP D'ETAT ON A GLOBAL SCALE OPPOSITION LOCKED UP IN JAIL DOMINATION THE GOONS ARE THE BOSS HUMAN RACE NAILED TO A CROSS -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 21:20:51 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:20:51 -0500 Subject: sacbee: Cal Report - Nevada hit with rolling blackouts, declares red alert Message-ID: <3B414823.245D928@ssz.com> http://www.sacbee.com/news/calreport/calrep_story.cgi?story=N2001-07-02-1700-1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Mon Jul 2 14:58:03 2001 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 23:58:03 +0200 Subject: CNN: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces Message-ID: Tampa is using high-tech security cameras to scan the city's streets for people wanted for crimes, a law enforcement tactic that some liken to Big Brother. [...] http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/02/high.tech.security.ap/index.html From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 2 22:03:04 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:03:04 -0500 Subject: O'Connor Questions Death Penalty Message-ID: <3B415208.865CACC5@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010702/aponline224901_000.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 3 01:25:18 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Not all that blitters is eGold. Message-ID: <200107030825.EAA16270@www3.aa.psiweb.com> [snipped] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/03/business/03PONZ.html?pagewanted=1 # # July 3, 2001 # # U.S. Charges Internet Operation Was a Huge Scam # # By KURT EICHENWALD # # OKLAHOMA CITY - By last September, life was getting rough for # Donald A. English. # # An unemployed single father, Mr. English was almost out of cash. # His family was threatened with eviction. Collection agencies # were at the door. His credit cards were mostly tapped out. # # With the walls closing in, Mr. English, 53, decided to grab for # a distinctly modern solution to his crumbling finances: He started # his own dot-com. # # But this was no ordinary Internet company. Instead, government # investigators said, it was the centerpiece of a huge scam. With # it, they said, this down-and-outer from Midwest City, Okla., # established one of history's fastest frauds, conning tens of # thousands of small investors out of as much as $50 million in # a matter of weeks, until the scheme collapsed early this year # in scandal. # [snip] # # Investigators have stumbled across imaginary banks hawking # nonexistent "digital" certificates of deposit, illusory # trillion-dollar government obligations and bogus business deals # to "lease" millions of dollars in cash. # [snip] # # In the case of EE-Biz, court records show, investors who signed # up opened an account with a legitimate company that functioned # like a bank, using an Internet currency known as e-gold. Then, # they transferred dollars in e-gold - a transaction known as a # spend, involving as little as $20 or as much as several thousand # - to an e-gold account, controlled by someone else. The early # investors received double their money back, with no explanation # of how it was done. As word spread of the payouts, investors # flocked to the site to participate. # # Mr. English himself had been a victim of a number of similar # schemes and decided to open up his own, according to transcripts # of chat room conversations. Those transcripts indicate that Mr. # English himself may not have completely understood the bogus # nature of the plan. # [snip] From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 06:12:16 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:12:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Of Art, Earthquakes, Image Processing And Restoration In-Reply-To: <20010703095551.A6921@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreativesolutions.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Wouter Slegers wrote: > I don't think this texture classification method is going to work on > normal printed text, as it has no real distinguishing texture. For Text is printed on paper. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 06:14:13 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:14:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > > >Cloning is far from a perfected technology - dozens of embryos are started > >for each one that comes to term, and many that are born have severe > >defects and die young. A lot that don't die young are pretty darn > >unhealthy in various ways. > > That I didn't know. I've been under the impression that most failed cloning > attempts result in a miscarriage. The point that Peter makes is as valid for normal sexual intercourse. It's a moot point. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 06:22:33 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:22:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st Message-ID: The fact is that if clonning research is stopped then the low success rate will continue. A self-fulfilling prophecy. If it is allowed to go forward in a very short time (a year perhaps) the problems will be ironed out and the success rate will exceed 'natural' (Grrrr Judeo-Christian ethics) rates of success. Eugenics - the management of reproductive choice by the state. What we need to do is outlaw the imposition of religious and political viewpoints from the discussion....wait.... Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 06:31:50 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:31:50 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal Message-ID: <3B41C946.928E1574@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/03/0423218.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 06:36:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:36:28 -0500 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th Message-ID: <3B41CA5C.5E304585@ssz.com> http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,44785,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl Tue Jul 3 00:55:51 2001 From: wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl (Wouter Slegers) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:55:51 +0200 Subject: Of Art, Earthquakes, Image Processing And Restoration In-Reply-To: <3B31E3AE.621CC52F@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 07:08:14AM -0500 References: <3B31E3AE.621CC52F@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010703095551.A6921@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreativesolutions.nl> On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 07:08:14AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > And you thought double shredding would save your privacy... > http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0621015.htm I recently got their paper and although it is very interesting for image classification, it seems of limited use for reconstruction of printed text from shredded documents. The authors describe a method for classification of textures to a compact representation (a 2NK long vector) and a way of determining the most likely texture class a given pixel is part of (by examining the pixels neighbours), with an error probability of 22% for 10 different textures. Although not described in the paper, I assume the pixels of the same class can be grouped into "patches" of the same texture, allow jigsaw-like problem solving. I don't think this texture classification method is going to work on normal printed text, as it has no real distinguishing texture. For shredded pictures the classification method will probably be effective in reducing the pictures of the shreds to smaller distinguishing values that can be used for a jigsaw solving algorithm. So as I see it, the real question is: how viable is the reconstruction of the complete "puzzle" given most/all of the pieces, some valueset indicating the probability two pieces are neigbours and maybe some information on the overall picture? Looks like a hard problem. With kind regards, Wouter Slegers From wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl Tue Jul 3 00:55:51 2001 From: wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl (Wouter Slegers) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:55:51 +0200 Subject: Of Art, Earthquakes, Image Processing And Restoration In-Reply-To: <3B31E3AE.621CC52F@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 07:08:14AM -0500 References: <3B31E3AE.621CC52F@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010703095551.A6921@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreatives olutions.nl> On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 07:08:14AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > And you thought double shredding would save your privacy... > http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0621015.htm I recently got their paper and although it is very interesting for image classification, it seems of limited use for reconstruction of printed text from shredded documents. The authors describe a method for classification of textures to a compact representation (a 2NK long vector) and a way of determining the most likely texture class a given pixel is part of (by examining the pixels neighbours), with an error probability of 22% for 10 different textures. Although not described in the paper, I assume the pixels of the same class can be grouped into "patches" of the same texture, allow jigsaw-like problem solving. I don't think this texture classification method is going to work on normal printed text, as it has no real distinguishing texture. For shredded pictures the classification method will probably be effective in reducing the pictures of the shreds to smaller distinguishing values that can be used for a jigsaw solving algorithm. So as I see it, the real question is: how viable is the reconstruction of the complete "puzzle" given most/all of the pieces, some valueset indicating the probability two pieces are neigbours and maybe some information on the overall picture? Looks like a hard problem. With kind regards, Wouter Slegers From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 08:13:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:13:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sender and receiver non-repudiation (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:48:31 +0300 (EET DST) From: Helger Lipmaa To: Panayiotis Kotzanikolaou Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Re: Sender and receiver non-repudiation On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Panayiotis Kotzanikolaou wrote: > The problem in this scheme is that Bob signs and sends the proof after > he has received M. Bob can receive M and never send a receipt. > > By using a trusted delivery service, it is easy to produce > non-repudiation evidence both for the sender and the receiver. > Is there any cryptographic protocol that "forces" Bob to produce > non-repudiation evidence during execution? Answering only to this concrete question: the kind of things you want are accomplished by contract signing protocols. A few recent papers: Optimistic Protocols for Fair Exchange(N. Asokan, Matthis Schunter, Michael Waidner, 1996) Optimal Efficiency of Optimistic Contract Signing(Birgit Pfitzmann, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner, PODC 98) Optimistic synchronous multi-party contract signing(N. Asokan, Birgit Baum-Waidner, Matthias Schunter, and Michael Waidner, dec 1998) Asynchronous protocols for optimistic fair exchange(N. Asokan, Victor Shoup, Michael Waidner, may 1998) Optimistic asynchronous multi-party contract signing(Birgit Baum-Waidner and Michael Waidner, nov 1998) Optimistic fair exchange of digital signatures(N. Askon, Victor Shoup, Michael Waidner, oct 1999) Abuse-free Optimistic Contract Signing(Juan Garay, Markus Jakobsson, Phil MacKenzie, CRYPTO '99) Abuse-free Multi-party Contract Signing( Juan Garay, Phil MacKenzie, DISC '99) Provable Secure Certified Mail(Birgit Pfitzmann, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner, 2000) Analysis of Abuse-Free Contract Signing( Vitaly Shmatikov, John C. Mitchell, 2000) 06/23/01 Optimistic Asynchronous Multi-Party Contract Signing with Reduced Number of Rounds(Birgit Baum-Waidner, eprint 2001/044) (you can find links to them at http://www.tml.hut.fi/~helger/crypto/link/protocols/contract.html) Answering more generally: it does not help you to get non-repudiation. Nothing does, unless Bob is able to prove that you signed this document consiously, being sober, and generally, that you MEANT to sign it. Helger --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Tue Jul 3 10:41:56 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:41:56 -0700 Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703103149.039a8df0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:22 AM 7/3/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >The fact is that if clonning research is stopped then the low success rate >will continue. A self-fulfilling prophecy. If it is allowed to go forward >in a very short time (a year perhaps) the problems will be ironed out and >the success rate will exceed 'natural' (Grrrr Judeo-Christian ethics) >rates of success. > >Eugenics - the management of reproductive choice by the state. > >What we need to do is outlaw the imposition of religious and political >viewpoints from the discussion....wait.... > > Amendment I > >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or >prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, >or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to >petition the Government for a redress of grievances. The problem with this argument is that despite the apparent religious agnosticism of the 1st, the moral basis upon which the SC has interpreted our laws is Judeo-Christian. Historically you've been protected from government intrusion unless your religion offends too many powerful people or presents political challenges. Consider the Mormons and shamanic drug rituals of the native Americans. Didn't Mao say something about all politics being, eventually, dispensed from the end of gun? steve From schear at lvcm.com Tue Jul 3 10:43:46 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:43:46 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <3B41C946.928E1574@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104317.039b2008@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:31 AM 7/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: >http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/03/0423218.shtml Somehow I feel we haven't heard the end of this.. steve From schear at lvcm.com Tue Jul 3 11:09:43 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:09:43 -0700 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does raise questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their observation while in public. After all one is permitted tinted windows on autos. Despite certain city/county ordinances why not masks or helmets with tinted faceplates. What if exoskeletons become practical? Shouldn't they be treated the same as an auto? steve From honig at sprynet.com Tue Jul 3 11:11:15 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:11:15 -0700 Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010703111115.008d9100@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:22 AM 7/3/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > >Eugenics - the management of reproductive choice by the state. > No. No more than your choice of reading materials is censorship. If I chose not to publish or buy text-X its not censorship. If the government interferes, it is. Now if I choose a spawning mate based on their apparent fitness (as judged by me), this is personal 'eugenics', and its fine morally. (Similarly with those who voluntarily delegate the choice to family members.) Now if the State does the choosing, its coercion by the state, which was pretty tainted by the German Socialists a generation or two ago, regardless of the possible future benefits, even if 'fitness' is agreed upon by all. Regardless of the benefits, its coercion. Private choice vs. Coercion by the State. Simple. Not all choice is censorship, or bad eugenics. ..... Aside: When the State enslaves 'fit' citizens as soldiers, some fraction of which are taken out of the gene pool, an indirect form of eugenics (animal husbandry) is taking place. Selection against 1As and carriers of patriotism traits, for instance. Evolution never sleeps. From urheal4727 at Flashmail.com Tue Jul 3 08:14:35 2001 From: urheal4727 at Flashmail.com (urheal4727 at Flashmail.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:14:35 -0400 Subject: Joint pain cure with chicken collagen fkprn Message-ID: <200106290409197.SM00215@www.eatseeds.com> JOINT HEAL If you have deteriorating joints of any kind, joint heal will help regenerate that loss. Joint Heal has chicken collagen in it as well as the famed glucosamine sulfate. It also has MSM in it along with Chondroitin Sulfate. One study quoted by chemist Robert Barefoot told of 387 chronic arthritic patients, half in wheelchairs, who were treated with crushed chicken collagen and gelatin. ALL were improved and all were out of their wheelchairs in six weeks. (i'm sure they were not completely c crippled but used the chairs just to make it easier for them) These types of stories do not get publicized as do medications which can not work. As the medications keep the individual in a gradual decline, people need to realize how simple the answer really is. Joint pain decreases within three days or sooner as regeneration begins. Joint Heal is 37.95 per bottle, 120 tablets. plus $5.95 shipping and handling. Call 800-395-7379 to order by credit card. For more info reply to this e-mail with the words "more info" in the subject line. Joint Heal is nothing like the normal joint products found in the Health food stores. Joint Heal was created by an individual whose mother had knotted up hands from arthritis. He worked years on a formula that finally helped straightened her hands and has been selling it throughout the world for 4 years. That product is Joint Heal. Glucosamine sulfate alone can do only a fraction of what the combination found in Joint Heal can do. Below is the unmatched combination of ingredients found in Joint Heal. Vitamin C 100mg, MSM (Methyl-Sulfonyl-Methane) 750mg, Chicken Collagen 250gm, Chondroitin Sulfate (from chicken sternal cartilage) Magnesium 200mg, Copper 500mcg, Manganese 5m, Sodium (as glucosamine sulfate) 60mg, Glucosamine Sulfate 750mg, Boron 750 mcg. Health R Us is an independent volunteer advertizing company bringing forth truth in healing. To subscribe, reply to this e-mail with "subscribe" in the subject line. We will bring you truths in healing concerning many types of sicknesses. To be removed reply to this e-mail with "remove" in the subject line. For more info reply to this e-mail with the words "more info" in the subject line. Call 800-395-7379 to order From frissell at panix.com Tue Jul 3 08:24:20 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:24:20 -0400 Subject: No legitimate reason for an American citizen to have an offshore account Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306123230.029cb6a0@popserver.panix.com> Better late than never... New York Times March 3, 2001 Citibank Admits to Lapses in Dealings With Offshore Shell Banks http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/03/business/03LAUN.html There is no legitimate reason for an American citizen to have an offshore account, the experts told the panel. "When you go offshore, you are doing so to evade rules, regulations, laws or taxes," said Jack Blum, a Washington lawyer with 30 years of experience in financial fraud, tax evasion and money laundering. Who's Jack you ask: Bio: http://www.ciba-imlc-rcmp-grc.org/pages_01/p_3_agen/3_age_5_e.html Provides cover for the CIA ducking drug smuggling charges: http://www.angelfire.com/id/ciadrugs/blumlive.html Works for a firm called in to defend the Clinton Secret Police: http://www.wired.com/news/lycos/0,1306,37022,00.html http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/act-investigation.html Supplies quotes for the IRS to tiptoe through credit card slips: http://personal.bellsouth.net/atl/d/b/dboddifo/Tax2.htm Isn't the Net convenient? As to the larger question of whether or not there are legitimate reasons for US citizens to have offshore accounts of various sorts, some of these reasons are "legitimate" and apply to US citizens: Offshore? US citizens 1. Tax avoidance/evasion (avoidance is legal) 2. Privacy preservation vis-a-vis government, family, creditors, enemies 3. Asset protection (seizure, litigation, etc) 4. Probate avoidance 5. Removal of assets from personal estate for qualification purposes (student aid, convalescent care, etc) 6. Access to accounts denominated in foreign currencies 7. Improved banking services for international business transactions Europeans 1. Access to Anglo-Saxon legal forms (ie Trusts) 2. Avoiding Forced Heirship 3. Expatiate financing & tax planning Other nationals 1. Country risk 2. Avoid exchange controls 3. Expatiate financing & tax planning From RonHolland at compuserve.com Tue Jul 3 08:30:11 2001 From: RonHolland at compuserve.com (Ron Holland) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:30:11 -0400 Subject: No legitimate reason for an American citizen to have an offshore account Message-ID: <200107031130_MC3-D7EA-39B1@compuserve.com> Re: Why I Can't Sing "The Star Spangled Banner" in Church This July 4th > Sunday > > Please take a moment & read the above short 800 word article for your > review, > consideration & linking at the following URL: > http://www.southerncaucus.org/nostarspangledbanner.htm > > Thank you, > Ron Holland, Editor > Dixie Daily News http://www.southerncaucus.org From 12th.BL.&.CL.Symposium at toad.com Tue Jul 3 12:16:01 2001 From: 12th.BL.&.CL.Symposium at toad.com (12th.BL.&.CL.Symposium at toad.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:16:01 Subject: Symposium, Cambridge, UK; April 2002 Message-ID: ===================================================== If you have received this email in error or do not wish to receive further information about the Symposium please reply to this message with the word REMOVE in the subject line. Please accept our apologies for troubling you. Thank you. ===================================================== FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT 12th International Symposium on Bioluminescence & Chemiluminescence Symposium website: http://www.lumiweb.com DATES: 5-9 April 2002 VENUE: Robinson College, University of Cambridge, UK This symposium, which is held in association with the International Society for Bioluminescence & Chemiluminescence (ISBC), is the next in the biennial series that was started in 1978. The content will again be broad, and include all aspects of fundamental and basic science as well as the wide range of applications that now depend on these technologies. The Symposium will be held in April 2002 at Robinson College, University of Cambridge, UK. Robinson College is well designed to host conferences and has excellent en suite accommodation. All Symposium activities will be held at the College. More details about Robinson College can be found at http://www.robinson.cam.ac.uk. The Symposium will start the evening of Friday 5 April and finish at midday Tuesday 9 April. Registration and accommodation details are available at http://www.lumiweb.com. Those who register for the Symposium by 19 November 2001 (this date is also the Abstract deadline date) will get a preferential rate and current Members of the ISBC are entitled to a further reduction. The Symposium will consist of presentations (both oral and poster). There will be also be an exhibition of equipment and reagents. Workshops are also planned. ENQUIRIES Email: symposium at lumiweb.com. ABSTRACTS Abstracts are invited for oral and poster presentations. Deadline for Abstracts: 19 November 2001. See http://www.lumiweb.com for further information. Accepted abstracts will be published in the journal "Luminescence" (publisher, John Wiley & Sons). SYMPOSIUM PUBLICATION Manuscripts will be invited from authors making presentations and these will be published in a Proceedings volume which will be sent after the Symposium and free-of-charge to each registered delegate. SYMPOSIUM PROGRAMME The International Society for Bioluminescence & Chemiluminescence (ISBC) is taking responsibility for the scientific programme (Programme Co-Chairs: Professor Tony Campbell (University of Wales College of Medicine), Dr Phil Hill (University of Nottingham, UK) and Professor Peter Herring (Southampton Oceanography Centre, UK) Past President of ISBC). TOPICS FOR THE SYMPOSIUM WILL INCLUDE (but are not restricted to) (A) BASIC SCIENCE OF BIOLUMINESCENCE & CHEMILUMINESCENCE: Chemiluminescence: >> Detection, measurement and imaging of luminescent reactions >> Chemistry of chemiluminescent reactions >> Reaction mechanisms >> Chemiluminescent labels, dioxetanes, acridans etc. >> Oxygen and other free radicals >> Standard light sources Bioluminescence: >> Biochemistry of luminous organisms [firefly, Vibrio, Beneckea, Renilla etc.] >> Luciferases and luciferins >> Photoproteins >> Quorum sensing and autoinducers >> Genetic engineering of bioluminescence enzymes >> Circadian phenomena Ultraweak luminescence: >> Phagocytosis >> Cellular luminescence Organisms: >> Oceanic bioluminescence >> Behaviour and ecology of luminous species (B) APPLICATIONS OF BIOLUMINESCENCE & CHEMILUMINESCENCE: >> Luminescent reporter genes including lux, luc and green fluorescent protein (GFP) >> High-throughput screening using luminescence >> Imaging techniques for cells, tissues and whole organisms >> Imaging of arrays >> Immunoassays >> Blot hybridisation with chemiluminescence detection >> Luminescence-coupled assays >> Luminescent biosensors >> Cellular luminescence in clinical medicine >> Phagocytosis and disease >> ATP assays (e.g. for hygiene of food, water, clinical samples) >> Green fluorescent protein applications >> Luminometers and instrumentation >> Imaging devices >> Chemiluminescence and fluorescence for in-situ hybridisation >> Use of luminescence as an educational tool >> Phagocytosis and cellular luminescence >> Ultra-weak chemiluminescence ===================================================== ===================================================== From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 10:35:58 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:35:58 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | The Poverty Of Attention Message-ID: <3B42027E.C00E8D5B@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/features/01/06/28/1522228.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 11:05:04 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:05:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703103149.039a8df0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > The problem with this argument is that despite the apparent religious > agnosticism of the 1st, the moral basis upon which the SC has interpreted > our laws is Judeo-Christian. Historically you've been protected from > government intrusion unless your religion offends too many powerful people > or presents political challenges. Consider the Mormons and shamanic drug > rituals of the native Americans. Didn't Mao say something about all > politics being, eventually, dispensed from the end of gun? Simple proof that my point is valid. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lisat at etransmail2.com Tue Jul 3 13:11:02 2001 From: lisat at etransmail2.com (Lisa Thornton) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:11:02 -0700 Subject: Become an Executive Member and Save! Message-ID: <200107032053.f63KrVx19237@ak47.algebra.com> TENASU RESEARCH CORP. You are subscribed as: cypherpunks at algebra.com Good Afternoon! Become an Executive Member and save on all your purchases of toner supplies, software and blank check paper! Click on the link below and then on the "Become a Member and Save" banner: http://www.g7ps.com ******************** Special Promotion for our subscribers: FREE Products (no other purchase required): a) eXpressForms "forms publisher" ($129.99 value) b) Fortune "relationship manager" ($149.99 value) c) DataScan "business card & contact list scanner" ($149.99 value) d) TransForm Suite "automatic form creation and text OCR" ($59.99 value) Pick up your FREE products at the web site specified below. Click on the following link for details and to order (or call the 800 number below) http://www.g7ps.com ********************* Please do not hesitate to call 800-303-2620 for any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Regards, Lisa Thornton Productivity Services Director G7 Productivity Systems, Inc. lisat at etransmail2.com 800-303-2620 To change your communication preference please click on: http://www.globalzon2k.com/scripts/mf_de.asp?e=cypherpunks at algebra.com or simply reply to this Email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 3 13:19:04 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:19:04 -0700 Subject: Forbidden Knowledge (Banned Research, Part II) Message-ID: Cypherpunks, A followup to my earlier items on banned research. People arguing about the validity or need or danger of cloning research are missing the basic point. Much of the discussion here, and from some "echoes" I've gotten back from a list Declan forwarded my article to (Politech, I presume), has focused on the _cloning_ issue, qua cloning. Some argue for why stem cell research should be "allowed," some argue that cloning is intrinsically dangerous, some argue that there are no particular hazards to cloning. This is an interesting technical area, but my article was about the basic issue of the state deciding that some knowledge is too dangerous to let non-approved persons and labs gain access to it. And, equally basic and important, the troubling issue of how non-judicial (not going through a court, through a jury of one's peers, a la the Fourth and Sixth) means of enforcement are being used: "visits" by regulatory agencies and worried burrowcrats, "we're ordering a timeout," "consider this a warning shot across their bow," and, in some cases, even predawn raids on those trafficking in forbidden knowledge. Some have said the issue is public safety. Well, I mentioned this, in the context of their perhaps being justification for stopping someone or some company from assembling a nuclear weapon in their facilities. More plausibly, manufacture of nerve gas and biological warfare agents. No one has persuasively argued that human cloning research justifies this kind of restriction based on imminent danger--there is no "danger" of clone mutants, for example, running amok in a neighborhood. There _might_ be a bunch of failed implant attempts, failed attempts to bring a fertilized egg to term. Ditto for various experiments with artificial insemination, fertility drugs, etc. But no particular "imminent danger" requiring police action to protect the safety of others. (Someone on the other list talked about that old chestnut "Shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater." I say chestnut for the obvious reasons: even Holmes concluded later in his life that it has been appropriated for all sorts of appeals to censorship and restrictions on basic rights. And of course that old chestnut had the modifier "falsely" in the equation. The connection with the Rael group's work on cloning is an exercise I'll leave for students and lawyers in Texas.) The real issue is about a move toward "permission requirements" for research. We came _this_ close to having such restrictions on crypto (examples familiar to Cypherpunks); whether such restrictions would have withstood a challenge reaching the Supreme Court is unclear. And we have seen the Felten/DMCA nonsense, where researchers cannot even do basic analysis of published specs! And nuclear, chemical, and biological weaponry work. (There are even restrictions on such established things as _gun research_. A hobbyist interested in building a better kind of rifle, or even building an old-fashioned kind of rifle or handgun, has committed various felonies merely by building such a thing without having all sorts of expensive licenses and "permission slips" from the BATF and probably other local, state, and federal agencies. Even if he never sells his handiwork he has violated BATF regs...essentially a licensing restriction on R & D. Not such a big deal to Ruger or Kahr or Smith and Wesson, perhaps, but a mighty big insult to the Constitution...and to the Founders, some of whom were gun makers.) Tangential to this issue, but intersecting it, is the issue of licensing in general. More and more employment requires that the state issue a permission slip. As with the cloning arguments seen here, the debate is usually couched in terms of "public safety." (Though how the licensing of fortune tellers, here in Santa Cruz, is a matter of public safety is quite mysterious.) The real issue, as readers of my stuff will know, is the creation and support of guilds: licensing is a rent-seeking mechanism. (I mention "readers of my stuff will know" because I expect that if Declan chooses to forward this article to his own list(s), I'll get the predictable mini-flurry of questions and arguments from people who basically are in other worlds of discourse, people with whom I have little points of principle in common. To "reach them," if I cared to, I'd have to explain many more points than I have the time to do in these articles sent out to Cypherpunks. Agree or not with me, Cypherpunks mostly have some idea of what is meant by various terms and ideas here.) To cut to the chase, we are seeing a transition to a world of: -- licensed and approved members of professions. Lawyers, doctors, accountants, geologists, tax preparers, fortune tellers, even engineers and programmers (in more and more states). At this rate, Uncle Sam will have to give his blessing for any activity other than purely amateur or leisure activity. This is NOT what the Constitution is about. (And please don't anybody cite the "commerce clause": the 1964 landmark case arguing that interstate commerce was affected by a rib joint not serving blacks--hence making their discrimination policies subject to Congressional rule--was pretty bogus even back then. Arguing that a programmer needs to be licensed, regulated, and controlled because he might sell a program across state lines is even more bogus. People often lose sight of the forest for the trees. -- to a world where broad areas of research are banned or restricted to controlled institutions. Seen with CBW research, and now cloning. How long before it carries over to other areas in biology? Why not restrict computer virus research? Or nanotech research? (Some of these areas are even "dangerous." Imagine Ben Franklin being arrested for "conducting banned research into electricity"? "We are ordering a timeout on Dr. Franklin's dangerous experiments with kites and keys. We have it on good authority from our own experts that Dr. Franklin might hurt himself. And, as we know, lightning causes fires. Man was not meant to know such things...unless we in government are doing the work. Dr. Franklin should consider this a warning shot." As an exercise, make up a list of all of the other kinds of research which might have been banned on the grounds that it might be dangerous to the researcher or, someday, to others. "But these flying contraptions will no doubt crash and kill many innocent people. All we are requiring is a "timeout" on this forbidden research by these Wright brothers.") -- the "ban on bomb-making instructions" proposed by the usual suspects is a variant on this issue. If such a ban is passed into law, and upheld, how long before it carries over to requiring encyclopedia editors excise articles on bombs, ANFO, and Astrolite? How long before court transcripts are censored to remove forbidden knowledge? (Ironically, Keith Henson recently reported to me that a key piece of evidence offered up the Scientologists, in their "friend of the Toronto court" brief, was an e-mail to Cypherpunks where I mentioned Keith telling us at a local party how the McVeigh transcript "got it right" on the real formation of Astrolite in the OKC bombing. Apparently my citing of Keith's citing of CNN's citing of the McVeigh trial testimony was enough to mark Keith as a dangerous criminal. Interested Cypherpunks can retrieve this article by using the obvious keywords in a search at Google, for example.) The next point shows where this takes us: -- and as with "precursor chemicals," chemicals which _could_ be made into methamphetamines or Sarin or other banned items, there will be bans on "precursor knowledge." This is probably exactly what is happening now with the Rael group and their early work on human cloning. Odds are excellent that they are at least several years away from actually attempting a human cloning. It's the groundwork, the precursor knowledge, that the government is now cracking down on. A very disturbing trend. -- fortunately, these "warning shots" will perhaps accelerate a transition into cypherspace. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 3 13:26:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:26:44 -0700 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 11:09 AM -0700 7/3/01, Steve Schear wrote: >Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does >raise questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their >observation while in public. After all one is permitted tinted >windows on autos. Not in many places. At least here in California, and probably in many other states, there are restrictions on which windows may be tinted, and by how much. Despite certain city/county ordinances why not masks or helmets with tinted faceplates. My motorcycle helmet has a tinted faceplate. Very darkly tinted, in fact. (So dark that the vehicle code requires it be removed at night and replaced by a clear plate, or lifted up.) The whole issue of "going masked" is a murky one, legally. We have had many discussions of this over the years. Women wearing veils, men wearing beards, sunglasses, Halloween or other party masks, etc. I believe that a major constitutional challenge to "going masked for the purpose of going masked" laws would, by a court faithful to the U.S.C. and the Founders, be struck down. The need of a traffic cop to check for a valid driver's license, for example, can be met in much less restrictive ways than throwing someone in prison for wearing a wig which some judge deems to be a "disguise." (Not that there are many, if any, people sitting in prison today for the crime of "going masked for the purpose of going masked." Time to take the laws off the books, though, lest they be applied to cyberspace or to public camera countermeasures, as we are discussing here.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 3 13:36:46 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:36:46 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104317.039b2008@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104317.039b2008@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 10:43 AM -0700 7/3/01, Steve Schear wrote: >At 08:31 AM 7/3/2001 -0500, you wrote: >>http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/03/0423218.shtml > >Somehow I feel we haven't heard the end of this.. I see people on Slashdot and various other fora cheering this. They don't understand the rights issues involved. The owner of a piece of property, such as a car, has the property and contract right to set up a contract as he sees fit. The first part of the ruling, that the contract was not clear enough, I can mostly accept. Future contracts will spell this out in more detail, in larger type fonts. And more people will have been exposed to the idea. There may be posters put up in rental offices. The second part of the ruling is an invalid attack on the property and contract rights of the owner of the property. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From dog3 at charc.net Tue Jul 3 10:44:07 2001 From: dog3 at charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Teach Me!!! In-Reply-To: <200106280101.VAA06932@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Steve Thompson wrote: > > Quoting Codi (cmardom at yahoo.com): > > HI, Please teach me how to hack!!! > > 1) Buy a computer and take it home from store. No no no, This is our way to secure computers, Remove Hard drive and Ram and Bios chips Smash the rest with sledge hammer Give the hd, ram, bios to subordinate supervise subordinate smashing hd, ram, bios with sledgehammer. Supervise subordinate gathering remaining dust and dumping in incinerator. supervise gathering ashes and dumping into ocean. Kill subordinate kill self. result, reasonably secure. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:00:40 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:00:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One other point... > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > The problem with this argument is that despite the apparent religious > > agnosticism of the 1st, the moral basis upon which the SC has interpreted > > our laws is Judeo-Christian. Historically you've been protected from Not 'protected' but 'granted at the King's behest'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:05:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:05:28 -0500 Subject: "Eugenics: Its Definition, Scope and Aims" by Francis Galton Message-ID: <3B421778.3585559A@ssz.com> http://www.mugu.com/galton/essays/eugenics-scope-aims.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:06:25 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:06:25 -0500 Subject: Glossary Definition: Eugenics Message-ID: <3B4217B1.3BC5303D@ssz.com> http://www.meta-library.net/gengloss/eugen-body.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:09:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:09:10 -0500 Subject: Eugenics: A discussion Message-ID: <3B421856.22E18FC1@ssz.com> http://homepages.tig.com.au/~kalon/eugenics/definition.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:13:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does raise > questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their observation > while in public. What has 'public' got to do with 'probable cause'? Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. > After all one is permitted tinted windows on autos. 'permitted' pretty much sinks your whole point. > Despite certain city/county ordinances why not masks or helmets > with tinted faceplates. What if exoskeletons become practical? Shouldn't > they be treated the same as an auto? You mean with license plates, and annual inspection? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:31:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:31:24 -0500 Subject: Eugenics History - Tony Message-ID: <3B421D8C.F05F70D7@ssz.com> http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mol3r/oldhistory.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 12:33:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:33:46 -0500 Subject: Eugenics Archive Message-ID: <3B421E1A.E3F24ABD@ssz.com> http://vector.cshl.org/eugenics/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From decoy at iki.fi Tue Jul 3 05:01:43 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:01:43 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Banned Research and Raids on "Secret Labs" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: >Cloning is far from a perfected technology - dozens of embryos are started >for each one that comes to term, and many that are born have severe >defects and die young. A lot that don't die young are pretty darn >unhealthy in various ways. That I didn't know. I've been under the impression that most failed cloning attempts result in a miscarriage. But, it really doesn't affect my point -- if we think that starting a pregnancy known to end in unhealthy babies gives the government a reason to intervene and incarcerate, then we also have to apply the same standard to those who smoke/use dope/live unhealthily during normal pregnancy. That is what I meant by the "unborn babies", the view that we should think of foetuses as first hand citizens with constitutional protection that is being violated when they're "made unhealthy". >A lot of the rhetoric seems to be on the level of 'this is just soooo >creepy'. Yep. That's even worse. >When cloning has a high success rate, and embryos which are going to >have problems after birth can be identified and culled at an early stage, >then I have no problem with human cloning. Until then, I'd rather people >did not try it (though, unlike the State, I would not stop them). That I can relate to. The point was less about whether cloning is ethical than about the right of the government to stop it. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 13:11:14 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:11:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Italy Public Announcement (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:50:15 -0400 From: PA List Manager To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV Subject: Italy Public Announcement ITALY Public Announcement July 3, 2001 >From July 20 to July 22, the city of Genoa in northwestern Italy will host the G-8 Summit, a meeting among heads of state and government from eight nations including the United States. There will be thousands of government officials, press representatives, and security personnel in Genoa. In addition, it is estimated that from fifty to eighty thousand or more demonstrators will be present before and during the Summit meeting period. As at past international meetings it is likely that some of the demonstrators will become disorderly or violent. If that occurs, clashes could result in injuries and/or arrests. Italian officials are working to minimize the potential for disruption. Access to many areas of the city, including well-known tourist sites, will be closed to the general public. Travelers to and through Genoa are likely to experience delays, detours, and limitations on their movement due to traffic and other restrictions. Travelers scheduled to arrive in or depart from Genoa via train, ferry, cruise ship, or plane during the Summit period should confirm with their companies whether there have been changes in their travel arrangements or instructions regarding travel to or from their points of arrival or departure. U.S. citizens, other than those with official Summit-related duties, should avoid travel to Genoa during the Summit period. Those who must travel to Genoa, should exercise caution, avoid any crowds or demonstrations, and monitor the local media to keep informed. The U.S. Embassy in Rome is located at Via Veneto 119A, telephone (24 hours) (39) 06-46741, fax (39) 06-4674-2217. The U.S. Consulate General in Milan is located at Via Principe Amadeo 2/10, telephone (39) 02-290351, fax (39) 02-2900-1165, and after-hours telephone (39) 02-2903-5928. For further information regarding travel to Italy, please consult the Department of State's latest Consular Information Sheet, which is available on the Internet at http://travel.state.gov. This Public Announcement expires on July 26, 2001. *********************************************************** See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for State Department Travel Warnings ************************************************************ To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 3 15:54:04 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:54:04 -0700 Subject: Italy Public Announcement (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:11 PM -0500 7/3/01, Jim Choate wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:50:15 -0400 >From: PA List Manager >To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV >Subject: Italy Public Announcement > >ITALY Public Announcement >July 3, 2001 > >>From July 20 to July 22, the city of Genoa in northwestern Italy will host >the G-8 Summit, a meeting among heads of state and government from eight >nations including the United States. There will be thousands of government >officials, press representatives, and security personnel in Genoa. Christ, Choate, it's bad enough that you spam us with whatever you think is of even slight technical interest, including stuff exported en masse from Slashdot. But could you _please_ knock of the spamming of us with junk from government announcement lists? I was doing some consolidating of very old documents, files, etc. from several of my older computers and I came across a tickler list I'd set to launch on my old Mac IIci when I booted it. The file was last edited in 1994, nearly 7 years ago. It had your name on it, along with half a dozen or so other names. "Jim Choate is clueless." Not much has changed in 7 years, except perhaps that you're more stridently clueless. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From dial911book at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 16:00:46 2001 From: dial911book at yahoo.com (Richard Stevens) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Matt -- we must protest when "our side" errs Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The July 2001 Issue of NRA's America's First Freedom magazine featured a cover picture of John Ashcroft and highlighted the story of Ashcroft's letter indicating that "the Constitution protects the private ownership of firearms for lawful purposes." The magazine (at pp. 35-37) exults in the reversal of Justice Department policy on the Second Amendment. That's great. On page 37, the NRA reprints Ashcroft's letter -- as though it were *in full* -- but omits the footnote that exists in Ashcroft's actual letter. As you know, Ashcroft also said in that footnote in his letter that the Constitution "does not prohibit Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms ownership for compelling state interests, such as prohibiting firearms ownership by convicted felons." The NRA omitted a key element of Ashcroft's position - -- and then published the letter as though it were complete. That omission is a terrible distortion -- and seriously damages NRA's credibility with those of us who know the whole truth. What else might the NRA choose to omit, where the omission serves a PR purpose? Are their reports from the UN correct? Their reports about lobbying efforts and the positions taken by NRA-backed candidates? I wonder who at the NRA thought it was a good idea to distort the facts, and conceal the somewhat negative truth, just to advance the appearance of NRA success? That's the conduct we came to expect from HCI & Co. ... now it has infected the NRA. Members like me should demand the NRA publish an accounting of this mistake, fire the person who made the mistake, apologize and repent from such conduct. - --Richard Stevens (my personal views only) ********************************************************************** **** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ********************************************************************** **** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO2VEUBj6oMyeDxZoEQKwzACgtgENpYvs3Oz6LEf2b04MDO6LMGUAmgPm FTy4IcWnLsgciXWgV25+IeDS =NOgR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C118EA.706C6390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: General Ashcroft make his move

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I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July issue also has
an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not quote the rather
lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible image of BOTH
pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of the footnote. This
is hardly the action of an organization bent on distorting Ashcroft's
view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the part of the
America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an organization-wide
conspiracy.

Jonathan Wienke

- -----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Gaylor [mailto:freematt at coil.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:01 PM
To: George at Orwellian.Org
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: General Ashcroft make his move


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  Richard Stevens is author of the recent
book "Dial 911 and Die" published by the Jews for the Preservation of
Firearms Ownership.   http://www.jpfo.org ]

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Stevens <dial911book at yahoo.com>
Subject: Matt -- we must protest when "our side" errs
To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt at coil.com>

Dear Colleagues,

The July 2001 Issue of NRA's America's First Freedom
magazine featured a cover picture of John Ashcroft and
highlighted the story of Ashcroft's letter indicating
that "the Constitution protects the private ownership
of firearms for lawful purposes."  The magazine (at
pp. 35-37) exults in the reversal of Justice
Department policy on the Second Amendment.

That's great.  On page 37, the NRA reprints Ashcroft's
letter -- as though it were *in full* -- but omits the
footnote that exists in Ashcroft's actual letter.

As you know, Ashcroft also said in that footnote in
his letter that the Constitution "does not prohibit
Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms
ownership for compelling state interests, such as
prohibiting firearms ownership by convicted felons."

The NRA omitted a key element of Ashcroft's position
- -- and then published the letter as though it were
complete.

That omission is a terrible distortion -- and
seriously damages NRA's credibility with those of us
who know the whole truth.  What else might the NRA
choose to omit, where the omission serves a PR
purpose?  Are their reports from the UN correct?
Their reports about lobbying efforts and the positions
taken by NRA-backed candidates?

I wonder who at the NRA thought it was a good idea to
distort the facts, and conceal the somewhat negative
truth, just to advance the appearance of NRA success?
That's the conduct we came to expect from HCI & Co.
... now it has infected the NRA.

Members like me should demand the NRA publish an
accounting of this mistake, fire the person who made
the mistake, apologize and repent from such conduct.

- --Richard Stevens
(my personal views only)

**********************************************************************
****
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe
FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per
week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**********************************************************************
****

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C118EA.706C6390-- From dial911book at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 16:00:46 2001 From: dial911book at yahoo.com (Richard Stevens) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Matt -- we must protest when "our side" errs Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The July 2001 Issue of NRA's America's First Freedom magazine featured a cover picture of John Ashcroft and highlighted the story of Ashcroft's letter indicating that "the Constitution protects the private ownership of firearms for lawful purposes." The magazine (at pp. 35-37) exults in the reversal of Justice Department policy on the Second Amendment. That's great. On page 37, the NRA reprints Ashcroft's letter -- as though it were *in full* -- but omits the footnote that exists in Ashcroft's actual letter. As you know, Ashcroft also said in that footnote in his letter that the Constitution "does not prohibit Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms ownership for compelling state interests, such as prohibiting firearms ownership by convicted felons." The NRA omitted a key element of Ashcroft's position -- and then published the letter as though it were complete. That omission is a terrible distortion -- and seriously damages NRA's credibility with those of us who know the whole truth. What else might the NRA choose to omit, where the omission serves a PR purpose? Are their reports from the UN correct? Their reports about lobbying efforts and the positions taken by NRA-backed candidates? I wonder who at the NRA thought it was a good idea to distort the facts, and conceal the somewhat negative truth, just to advance the appearance of NRA success? That's the conduct we came to expect from HCI & Co. ... now it has infected the NRA. Members like me should demand the NRA publish an accounting of this mistake, fire the person who made the mistake, apologize and repent from such conduct. --Richard Stevens (my personal views only) ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 14:10:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:10:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > The second part of the ruling is an invalid attack on the property > and contract rights of the owner of the property. The rental agency has no(!!!) authority under law to enforce speeding regulations. If they find that a leasee has violated a law by getting a ticket or whatever then they certainly have the right to protect their property by refusing or raising rates on future rentals, but to impose 'fines' is simply wrong, they do not represent the civil authority in charge of the road. It would certainly be sufficient evidence to bring charges of reckless driving or whatever, but the final determination of 'guilt' and the consequences thereof are up to the CIVIL authorities and not the owner of the property. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 14:16:53 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:16:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > The whole issue of "going masked" is a murky one, legally. No, it isn't. While police certainly need 'probably cause' to institute a search there are NO (zero, nadah, nil, nul, none) requirements on citizens to wear any particular part or type of clothing (or not wear it even). Any such law would violate the 1st. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 14:18:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:18:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A perfect example of what's wrong with modern legal thinking Message-ID: Milosevic claims that he won't enter a plea so the judge does it for him, instead of entering 'no plea on grounds of jurisdiction'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 3 16:26:22 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:26:22 -0700 Subject: Choatian Disorders Explained References: Message-ID: <002701c10417$931c0310$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: "Jim Choate" ; "The Club Inferno" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Italy Public Announcement (fwd) > At 3:11 PM -0500 7/3/01, Jim Choate wrote: [Absolutely nothing worth quoting.] Mr. May replied: > Christ, Choate, it's bad enough that you spam us with whatever you > think is of even slight technical interest, including stuff exported > en masse from Slashdot. > > But could you _please_ knock of the spamming of us with junk from > government announcement lists? > > I was doing some consolidating of very old documents, files, etc. > from several of my older computers and I came across a tickler list > I'd set to launch on my old Mac IIci when I booted it. The file was > last edited in 1994, nearly 7 years ago. It had your name on it, > along with half a dozen or so other names. > > "Jim Choate is clueless." > > Not much has changed in 7 years, except perhaps that you're more > stridently clueless. > > --Tim May I have all Choate's many addresses filtered but stuff coming from others discussing Choate still gets through. (Note to self: fix this). I'm pretty convinced that Mr. Choate just needs the attention so badly that he doesn't care. The more we complain about his nonsense the more determined he is to send more nonsense out. I was cleaning out my cypherpunk archives of all things Choate. I have a big folder called 'spam' that I USED to dump all Choatisms- along with the porn, get rich quick and penis enlargement solicitations, to for later quick review prior to disposal. Now I dump the Choate stuff directly to the trash. The penis enlargement solicitations still go into the 'spam' folder. They are far more entertaining than Choate. Anyhow, while cleaning these out I discovered this: (begin quote) From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 14:33:51 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:33:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Side effect of allowing car agencies to fine for speed violations Message-ID: Assume Tim's point is valid, that the owner of a vehicle may 'fine' a 'borrower' of their property for violations of the owners intent (eg follow the public speed laws). Since I own my private vehicle then I have the 'right by owner' to give myself amnesty for any speeding violations I might commit. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kurtbuff at lightmail.com Tue Jul 3 17:12:38 2001 From: kurtbuff at lightmail.com (Kurt Buff) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:12:38 -0700 Subject: How does a machine... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006c01c1041e$099b7ec0$1506050a@bfgapollo1> It doesn't. Do some investigation on forensics, and you'll find the obvious thing: People testify that they are expert at understanding how the machine in question operates, and are qualified understand the machine's output, and to interpret the results, summarizing them for the jury. Happens regularly in court. | | give an oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? | | | -- | | ____________________________________________________________________ | | Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. | | Ludwig Wittgenstein Looks like you haven't learned this lesson yet... From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 15:43:56 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:43:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another problem with 'automated enforcement' Message-ID: How do you call a video camera to the stand to give their deposition as to the situation in which the photo was taken? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 15:57:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:57:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Calling witnesses Message-ID: Can one call an animal as a witness? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 16:01:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:01:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Can a Message-ID: Gas Chromatograph or a DNA Sequencer in and of itself give testimony? Does the defendant have a right to cross examine any(!) 'entity' which provides evidence in a trial? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 16:03:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:03:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: How does a machine... Message-ID: give an oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 16:06:23 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 18:06:23 -0500 Subject: parrot Message-ID: <3B424FEF.405C3F@ssz.com> http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/~colin/Papers/parrot.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 3 15:13:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:13:30 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:10:27PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010703181330.A27644@cluebot.com> Huh? This is Choatian nonsense. If the speed limits were 85 mph and a rental car company decided it only wanted drivers to go 65 mph, they could put this in their contract and enforce if, if they so choose. If they misjudge and drivers really, really want to go 85 mph, they will lose business. Such are the gusting winds of the market. You may reasonably say that private companies should not be the enforcement arms of the state, but they should be allowed to make their own decisions when voluntarily choosing to do so. -Declan PS: Of more cypherpunk relevance, perhaps, is the greater role that insurance companies would play in the absence of government speed limits. You may have to pay more in insurance to drive faster, for instance. On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:10:27PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > The second part of the ruling is an invalid attack on the property > > and contract rights of the owner of the property. > > The rental agency has no(!!!) authority under law to enforce speeding > regulations. If they find that a leasee has violated a law by getting a > ticket or whatever then they certainly have the right to protect their > property by refusing or raising rates on future rentals, but to impose > 'fines' is simply wrong, they do not represent the civil authority in > charge of the road. It would certainly be sufficient evidence to bring > charges of reckless driving or whatever, but the final determination of > 'guilt' and the consequences thereof are up to the CIVIL authorities and > not the owner of the property. > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. > > Ludwig Wittgenstein > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 3 15:19:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:19:43 -0400 Subject: Side effect of allowing car agencies to fine for speed violations In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:33:51PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010703181943.D27644@cluebot.com> Well, yes, but only for violations of your own contract with yourself. -Declan On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:33:51PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Since I own my private vehicle then I have the 'right by owner' to give > myself amnesty for any speeding violations I might commit. From deposito at eastmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:19:59 2001 From: deposito at eastmail.com (deposito at eastmail.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REGISTRE EL SUYO AHORA Message-ID: <200107040119.SAA04630@toad.com> Si tiene una empresa en marcha, un proyecto o una idea registre su dominio en Internet AHORA, tal vez ma嚙窮na sea demasiado tarde. Proteja su nombre en Internet. Si tiene ya dominio y ha de renovarlo proximamente transfiera el dominio por solo 20$ lo tendra un a嚙緻 renovado (esta operacion no afecta al hospedaje, solo al registrador del dominio) Si conoce a alguien en esta situacion y no sabe que regalarle regalele un dominio, es original y quedara bien. Vea toda la informacion referente al registro de dominios en http://dom.4d2.net/ REGALE UN DOMINIO O REGISTRE EL SUYO Otros servicios: hospedaje, redireccion de dominio, ...etc 嚙瘡AS DE RENOVAR EL REGISTRO DE TU DOMINIO? PRECIO ESPECIAL POR TRANSFERENCIA DE DOMINIO (20$ A嚙瞌) PRECIO DE HOSTING IMBATIBLE -----------------------REMOVE------------------------------ SI NO QUIERE RECIBIR MAS MENSAJES DESDE ESTA DIRECCION VAYA AL LINK INDICADO Y SERA DADO DE BAJA INMEDIATAMENTE. DICHO LINK ES UN SERVICIO INDEPENDIENTE DEL ENVIO DE ESTE EMAIL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dar de baja de la lista de distribucion - remove distribution list http://borrame.fadlan.com/ RemovingNet. Cuentas gratuitas para el control de bajas. Free accounts for the control of "unsubscribes" RemovingNet nada tiene que ver con este email ni con su contenido RemovingNet nothing has to do with this email nor with contained his ---------------------------------------------------------------- IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RECEIVE MORE MESSAGES FROM US, PLEASE CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW. http://borrame.fadlan.com/ YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS WILL BE REMOVED FROM OUR DATA BASE IMMEDIATELY. REMOVING.NET IS AN INDEPENDENT SERVICE -----------------------REMOVE------------------------------ From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 3 18:44:59 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:44:59 -0700 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: >Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does >raise questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their >observation while in public. After all one is permitted tinted >windows on autos. Despite certain Not everywhere, and even then not all windows. >city/county ordinances why not masks or helmets with tinted >faceplates. What if exoskeletons become practical? Shouldn't they >be treated the same as an auto? > >steve -- -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 3 18:51:06 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:51:06 -0700 Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010703111115.008d9100@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010703111115.008d9100@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: >At 08:22 AM 7/3/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >> >>Eugenics - the management of reproductive choice by the state. >> > >No. No more than your choice of reading materials is censorship. > >If I chose not to publish or buy text-X its not censorship. >If the government interferes, it is. > >Now if I choose a spawning mate based on their apparent fitness >(as judged by me), this is personal 'eugenics', and its fine morally. >(Similarly with those who voluntarily delegate the choice to >family members.) > >Now if the State does the choosing, its coercion by the state, which >was pretty tainted by the German Socialists a generation or two >ago, regardless of the possible future benefits, even if 'fitness' is >agreed upon by all. Regardless of the benefits, its coercion. > >Private choice vs. Coercion by the State. Simple. Not all >choice is censorship, or bad eugenics. Huh? Did you read what he said? As much as I hate to stand up for Choate, you seem to be reiterating his point--that Eugenics is management of reproductive choice by the state. Normally enough, Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com both disagree. I tried the OED, but they want $550 a year for access. Sorry guys. >Aside: When the State enslaves 'fit' citizens as soldiers, some fraction of >which are taken out of the gene pool, an indirect form of eugenics >(animal husbandry) is taking place. Selection against 1As >and carriers of patriotism traits, for instance. But the *really* good ones, and the absolute cowards come back to breed. -- -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 17:16:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:16:24 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Quantum Mechanics Symposium Message-ID: <3B426058.83EAEE05@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/science/01/07/03/1248219.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 17:20:15 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:20:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: How does a machine... In-Reply-To: <006c01c1041e$099b7ec0$1506050a@bfgapollo1> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Kurt Buff wrote: > It doesn't. Do some investigation on forensics, and you'll find the obvious > thing: People testify that they are expert at understanding how the machine > in question operates, and are qualified understand the machine's output, and > to interpret the results, summarizing them for the jury. You're almost there, the key word is 'operate'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com Tue Jul 3 17:43:07 2001 From: YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com ('Your Membership' Editor) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange Message-ID: <20010704004307.5D6B43A398@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #425 (July 3, 2001) Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! You are a member in at least one of these programs
- You should be in them all!
BannersGoMLM.com
ProfitBanners.com
CashPromotions.com
MySiteInc.com
TimsHomeTownStories.com
FreeLinksNetwork.com
MyShoppingPlace.com
BannerCo-op.com
PutPEEL.com
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SELLinternetACCESS.com
Be-Your-Own-ISP.com
SeventhPower.com

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______________________________________________________

>> Moderator Comment

>> Q & A
   QUESTIONS:
     - Starting an ezine?
   ANSWERS:
     - Using pictures as links?
       C. Hall: Use alt tags for descriptions

>> MEMBER SHOWCASES

>> MEMBER *REVIEWS*
     - Sites to Review: #126, #127, #128 & #129!
     - Site #125 Reviewed!
     - Thanks for the helpful input!
______________________________________________________

>>>>>> Moderator Comment <<<<<<

Hello Everyone!
I just wanted to let you know the Your Membership Exchange
will not be sent on Wednesday, July 4th, and Thursday,
July 5, as we celebrate Independence Day here in the U.S.
and take a few days off.  I hope everyone has a safe and
enjoyable holiday, and I'll see you again next week!
 

>>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<<

QUESTIONS:

From: Truman D  - trumans at email.msn.com
Subject: Starting an ezine?

I have the content... now here's the question

Where do I go to learn HOW TO BUILD MY OWN EZINE..

EXAMPLE...
1.. I  turn on my computer..
2. NOW.. where do I go to start  building the ezine or
   newsletter???

Thanks for any help you may give me.

Trumans at email.msn.com
Keep it Honest..Keep it simple
Get Smarter..Faster...Now
http://www.newbieclub.com?zimmersell
 

ANSWERS:

From: Carol L S Hall  -  carol at floridarental.co.uk
Subject: Use alt tags for descriptions

>From: moviebuff at cliffhanger.com
>Subject: Using pictures as links? - Issue #423
>
- - > I'm changing my website and want to use pictures for the
links to other pages. But, someone told me I should still
put a 'click here' underneath all the pictures. How can
I get across that you click on the pictures to get to other
pages without coming right out and saying so? < - -

Hi -
You just need to use alt tags for your link pictures - when a
mouse is moved over the pics, the alt tags saying 'Click here
for.....' will come up and everyone will know they are links.

Carol Hall
All great Florida vacations start at
http://www.floridarental.co.uk
______________________________________________________
 

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______________________________________________________

>>>>>> MEMBER *REVIEWS* <<<<<<

Visit these sites, look for what you like and any suggestions
you can offer, and send your critique to MyInput
And, after reviewing three sites, your web site will be added to
the list! It's fun, easy, and it's a great opportunity to give
some help and receive an informative review of your own site.
Plus, you can also win a chance to have y our site chosen for
a free website redesign. One randomly drawn winner each month!
 

SITES TO REVIEW:

Site #126: http://www.EClassifiedshq.com
Carol Cohen
Opp0rtunity at aol.com

Site #127: http://www.allbizservices.com/win
Patty Baldwin
patty at allbizservices.com

Site #128: http://www.fabulousincome.com
Kay Strong
strongone at door.net

Site #129: http://www.mlmAnonymous.com
Tom Corbett
Tom.corbett at fuse.net

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SITE REVIEWED

Comments on Site #125: http://www.wedeliverparties.com
Dawn Clemons
dclemons7 at home.com
~~~~

The site looks nice and professional. I really like the
nav bar, it is helpful. The "What's Hot" page needs work.
It is all jumbled together. Some cell spacing, or cell
padding in a table will fix it all up.
~~~~

I have no doubt that there are those who will use the
services of this website, but my question is, why, unless
you live in a remote area? Most of the things they list
can be obtained readily at such places as Wal-Mart, Paper
Warehouse, etc etc, and you see 'em when you buy 'em -
you don't have to wait to have things shipped to you.
Also, the triple-window effect is distracting.

~~~~

I find the color scheme not always very well chosen: it is
not easy to read white text on yellow background.

I would prefer to see more of the main page. The left border
is OK (a little smaller would be better), but the top border
takes up too much space (almost 1/2 of my screen, I use 800x600).

I suppose there is an error in the border of Party Planning,
the summing up makes no sense to me. Also when choosing the
FamilyPages, the contents of the border changes instead of
the main page.

The site is quite easy to navigate, there is (almost always)
a "Back to Main Page" button present. Personally I would
aim to have all sub-menus look the same (font, fontsize,
line spacing,..).

The site has a good "look", but I think it needs some more
checking for minor errors or broken links. I find consistency
in look and structure very important. In choosing some of
their product lines, once you get a new popup window with
a whole different look, at other times the (small)main page
gives you the information. Better go for one option and
apply this to all similar pages.

As my last remark, I personally like the color schemes of
the products pages better. The colors are much brighter.
These pages look more inviting and get you in the mood
for a party !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THANKS FOR REVIEW!

From: Shirley Turetsky  - interactiveopinions at email.com
Subject: Thanks for the helpful input

I just wanted to thank those who have visited my site and
took the time to review. All their comments were very helpful.

I changed the margins on my front page and I realized my index
needed some direction. Oh I did get rid of the second welcome.
Thanks for the suggestion. I also added how to get rid of the
pop-ups while searching my site. And I hope to be getting a
domain for my site soon.

Again, Thank You for all the helpful suggestions. This is my
first experience creating a site and your comments have helped
me make it better. You really don't know how helpful this has
been. What a great experience!

Mrs T
Interactive Opinions at: http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/mrstgifts
I am very happy that most did enjoy what I had to offer.

moderator: Amy Mossel  Moderator
posting:   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
______________________________________________________

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   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
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Copyright 2001 AEOpublishing

----- End of Your Membership Exchange ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ This email has been sent to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net at your request, by Your Membership Newsletter Services. Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.4btka567&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16345 bytes Desc: not available URL: From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Jul 3 20:49:45 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:49:45 -0700 Subject: Prying Eyes Message-ID: About what I thought --- there was talk on the cpunks list about using paintball guns to blind cameras such as those down in Tampa being used by the cops to scan everybody looking for people with outstanding warrants, but I'd think it would be difficult. Also it was suggested to use RC blimps with spray guns, a much better idea, I'd think. Also not so noticeable as pulling out a paint gun in public and blazing away, which might get you arrested. Or shot. A blimp could be easily controlled w/o anyone knowing who. It might even be made to just look like a bunch of mulitcolored ballons that escaped, complete with dangling strings. > > How accurate are paint ball guns? > > Not great. The ATS full auto gun I have is much better than the average > semi-auto, especially with the autosizer (paint from different > manufacturers comes in slightly different sizes which has a big effect > on accuracy). > > But even still, its not like shooting even a pellet gun - more like any > old daisy single pump. You can hit a fedex box at 30 ft pretty easy - > but you're just lobbing a paint ball - < 300fps, big fat wobbly thing, > frustrating really. From dave at farber.net Tue Jul 3 18:02:48 2001 From: dave at farber.net (David Farber) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 21:02:48 -0400 Subject: IP: Celebrating the Fourth Message-ID: >To: David Farber >From: Whitfield Diffie > > Tuesday 3 July 2001 at 17h45 > > In 1994, I sent the following message to the Cypherpunks" > > From: whitfield.diffie at Eng.Sun.COM > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Celebrating the 4th > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 at 13h01 > > On the 4th of July 1993, I walked out of my house and saw my > neighbor's flag flying from the porch. I thought: ``I have no flag > to fly; how shall I celebrate Independence Day?'' I went back > inside and got Gunther's Casebook in Constitutional Law. At > breakfast, I re-read the Constitution. A practice I recommend to > all of you. > > I subsequently acquired online copies of the Constitution, and the > even more appropriate Declaration of Independence from Danny Weitzner > at EFF. Plain TeX copies are attached below, separated by a > --- cut here --- line. > (snip) > >(It seemed corny but I couldn't figure out how to improve on it since it >was true.) Today the Constitution and the Declaration are readily >available on the web and still worth reading once a year. > > Whit For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From amaha at vsnl.net Tue Jul 3 09:25:53 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:55:53 +0530 (IST) Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <20010703162553.2A90B53D@mmb1.vsnl.net.in> PERCEPTION If you are distressed by anything external,the pain is not due to the thing itself but to your own estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment. --Marcus Aurelius ********************************************************************************** Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Joy (Non-religious Organisation) From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 3 21:59:42 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> The whole issue of "going masked" is a murky one, legally. > >No, it isn't. While police certainly need 'probably cause' to institute a >search there are NO (zero, nadah, nil, nul, none) requirements on citizens >to wear any particular part or type of clothing (or not wear it even). Any >such law would violate the 1st. So I can go out in public nude, and not expect to be arrested? Wrong. While, in absolute terms, the right to free expression ought to include the right to nudity, in practice it does not. As a male, I am *required*, by the state, to wear something that covers up the dangly bits when I go out in public. The state also refuses to license establishments to serve food unless those establishments have a clear policy refusing admittance to barefoot people. Does the state require me to wear shoes, or is it their puppets the shopkeepers who do so? Does it matter? NO. Shoes are also required for all riders of state-sponsored public transit. I support the right of antisocial people to smear themselves with green jello and run naked with scissors around the block flapping their arms and shouting "splee three frooks!" if they want to, but the state does not agree. There are also types of clothing that I am forbidden by the state to wear; I had a friend in Kansas City who cross-dressed once and got busted for -- I kid you not -- "Intent to defraud." Since he was wearing a full beard at the time, I don't know anyone who'd have fallen for his supposed fraud, but let us just say that if you are a man dressed in women's clothing, the law enforcement agencies of a lot of places will go out of their way to find a law to charge you with. Unconstitutional? Sure. Standard Practice? Absolutely. Don't go spouting off that these laws *don't* exist just because they *ought* not exist. Someone who doesn't know you may actually believe you and wind up in jail. Bear From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 3 22:08:15 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Side effect of allowing car agencies to fine for speed violations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >Assume Tim's point is valid, that the owner of a vehicle may 'fine' a >'borrower' of their property for violations of the owners intent (eg >follow the public speed laws). > >Since I own my private vehicle then I have the 'right by owner' to give >myself amnesty for any speeding violations I might commit. > As usual, you are confusing civil law with contract law. A contract may hold someone to penalties which are not part of civil law. This has no effect on whether there are also penalties for something in civil law. In your example, you as owner of the car may hold people who lease your car responsible to pay *you* $100 every time they spit out the window. If spitting out the window also happens to be illegal, then Officer Friendly can write them a ticket for it at the same time. The state penalty is separate from the contract obligation. If you then magnanimously exempt yourself from the civil obligation when you lease the car from yourself, Officer Friendly can still bust you for spitting out the window if you find yourself in a jurisdiction where that's illegal. The fact that you don't (or do) also owe yourself money has no bearing on the criminal case. Bear From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 3 22:18:49 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calling witnesses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >Can one call an animal as a witness? Bloodhounds were for a long time considered admissible in cases involving scent tracking, and may still be in some jurisdictions -- but I don't know whether they counted as "witnesses" or "evidence". Note that courtroom procedure calls for witnesses to be sworn in, and unless someone could convince a judge that the animal understood the concept of an oath and what was being sworn, that could probably be used to disqualify any animal "witness". Other than that though, the question is not interesting except in the case of language-using animals -- presently limited to apes and chimps trained to use sign language, and a few african Gray Parrots that seem to use speech in a symbolic rather than mimicking way. (Possibly also Dolphins and Orcas, but we're not sure yet and translation efforts have yielded limited results at best.) I've never heard of anyone attempting to call a language-using animal as a witness. When it happens, there will probably be a ruling. Bear From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 3 20:31:43 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:31:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IP: Celebrating the Fourth (fwd) Message-ID: Happy 4'th! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 21:43:33 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu, e$@vmeng.com, cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: IP: Celebrating the Fourth --- begin forwarded text From askusnow at getresponse.com Wed Jul 4 00:06:46 2001 From: askusnow at getresponse.com (askusnow at getresponse.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:06:46 -0700 Subject: I heard you were looking for a business opportunity Message-ID: <341720017347646830@alphadelta> Hello, If your like me, you've already deleted mail from dozens of "Get Rich Quick" schemes, chain letter offers, and LOTS of other absurd scams that promise to make you rich overnight with no investment and no work. 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--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dm128 at microconnect.net Tue Jul 3 23:11:10 2001 From: dm128 at microconnect.net (David) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 02:11:10 -0400 Subject: Calling witnesses--[On a tangent] References: Message-ID: <000d01c10450$2057e310$778d7c3f@Annabell> On a more or less off topic tangent, Do you think as far as the intelligence and competency of these language speaking and otherwise intelligent animals, If it was proven that they were equally or more so then ourself(the human race), could we admitt to that fact? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Dillinger" To: "Jim Choate" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 1:18 AM Subject: CDR: Re: Calling witnesses > > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > >Can one call an animal as a witness? > > Bloodhounds were for a long time considered admissible in cases > involving scent tracking, and may still be in some jurisdictions -- > but I don't know whether they counted as "witnesses" or "evidence". > > Note that courtroom procedure calls for witnesses to be sworn in, > and unless someone could convince a judge that the animal understood > the concept of an oath and what was being sworn, that could probably > be used to disqualify any animal "witness". > > Other than that though, the question is not interesting except > in the case of language-using animals -- presently limited to apes > and chimps trained to use sign language, and a few african Gray > Parrots that seem to use speech in a symbolic rather than mimicking > way. > > (Possibly also Dolphins and Orcas, but we're not sure yet and > translation efforts have yielded limited results at best.) > > I've never heard of anyone attempting to call a language-using > animal as a witness. When it happens, there will probably be > a ruling. > > Bear > > > > From summer357us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 05:10:23 2001 From: summer357us at yahoo.com (Making Money) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 05:10:23 Subject: Making Money By Sending E-mail ! Message-ID: <200107041212.f64CCZj16887@rigel.cyberpass.net> Hi , Looking to Make Money Go to www.emailmarketingrus.com Then call me or E-mail me and I will show you HOW !!!! timothy From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 06:58:49 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Of Art, Earthquakes, Image Processing And Restoration In-Reply-To: <20010704112204.C23178@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreativesolutions.nl> Message-ID: Look under a microscope some time. On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Wouter Slegers wrote: > Obviously. But to use the texture classification method for > 'deshredding', the paper must consist of multiple distinct textures or > else you will not get any information out of the method besides the type > of paper used. For deshredding, the likelyhood of two pieces of > paper being previously attached is needed. > So for this to be usable on paper, paper needs to have significantly > varying texture. For rice-paper, parchment and watermarks I can see this > work, but for normal paper?? Does anyone have experience in this or a > cite? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 07:01:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:01:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Happy 4th: A Cold War Observation Message-ID: The Communist learned capitalism. The Democrtist lost individual freedom. A happy middle of the road compromise. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 07:08:23 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 09:08:23 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Copyrights and Copywrongs Message-ID: <3B432357.FD220333@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/04/0026226.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 07:20:26 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:20:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A perfect example of what's wrong with modern legal thinking In-Reply-To: <20010704110234.B23178@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreative solutions.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Wouter Slegers wrote: > Hmmm, in the news here in the Netherlands a Dutch law professor > said that a guilty plea from Milosevic would obviate the "(dis)proving > of guilt"-part of the trial and everything would therefor move to > determining the measure of punishment. "disproving of guilt"...nothing more needs to be said. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Wed Jul 4 09:36:31 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 09:36:31 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010704093410.03a35008@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:10 PM 7/3/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > The second part of the ruling is an invalid attack on the property > > and contract rights of the owner of the property. > >The rental agency has no(!!!) authority under law to enforce speeding >regulations. If they find that a leasee has violated a law by getting a >ticket or whatever then they certainly have the right to protect their >property by refusing or raising rates on future rentals, but to impose >'fines' is simply wrong, they do not represent the civil authority in >charge of the road. It would certainly be sufficient evidence to bring >charges of reckless driving or whatever, but the final determination of >'guilt' and the consequences thereof are up to the CIVIL authorities and >not the owner of the property. They were not enforcing the state's speeding regulations. They were increasing the price of the rental to compensate for their increased exposure to costs due to accidents. steve From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 07:36:32 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:36:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Factors for matching paper Message-ID: from a shredder, that is... - handling marks (e.g. marks where a paper feeder impresses or moisture stains from handling) - paper fiber pattern extension across cuts - paper color shading across cuts - cut marks made by the cutting tools themselves - syntactic analysis (of the results, weak) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at ameritech.net Wed Jul 4 07:49:28 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 09:49:28 -0500 Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703103149.039a8df0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3B432CF4.C63F8597@ameritech.net> And not even really Judeo, just rednecked Christian. Ancient Judaism was polygamous, as anyone who can read the Old Testament knows. And it wasn't just the "shamanic drug rituals" of native americans that was banned -- *ALL* religious practices were banned for many decades. Many indigenous people were killed simply for engaging in religious dancing -- Sun Dance and Ghost Dance in particular, but all other spiritual worship was banned as well. Not only native americans, but many others are banned from practicing their religion -- Hindu and Rastafarian use of ganga, for example. Santeria, Vodun, and like african/earth based religions are regularly persecuted, likewise Wicca and Druidism. Don't even mention Satanism. None of the last few mentioned are allowed on military bases, for example, and Dubbya, asked about this during the campaign, said they weren't "real" religions. Police raid ceremonies in many localities. How anyone can actually believe that we have any semblance of "freedom of religion" in the US is mind boggling. Well, I guess the same can be said for any belief we have a constitutional government at all, or have had for a long, long time. Steve Schear wrote: > At 08:22 AM 7/3/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > Amendment I > > > >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or > >prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, > >or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to > >petition the Government for a redress of grievances. > > The problem with this argument is that despite the apparent religious > agnosticism of the 1st, the moral basis upon which the SC has interpreted > our laws is Judeo-Christian. Historically you've been protected from > government intrusion unless your religion offends too many powerful people > or presents political challenges. Consider the Mormons and shamanic drug > rituals of the native Americans. Didn't Mao say something about all > politics being, eventually, dispensed from the end of gun? -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net From pcapelli at nsec.net Wed Jul 4 07:26:48 2001 From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:26:48 -0400 Subject: Auto tracking at the airport Message-ID: <014901c10495$5c939aa0$01000100@diamondjoe> Of course, it's all to help you find you car if you can't remember where you parked it ... http://www.newsobserver.com/wednesday/news/triangle/Story/513349p-508917c.ht ml Pete Capelli pcapelli at nsec.net http://www.capelli.org PGP Key ID:0x829263B6 "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 08:38:49 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:38:49 -0500 Subject: The Register - Government, military scrambel for encryption technology Message-ID: <3B433889.1EA2E14B@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/20193.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 08:40:53 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:40:53 -0500 Subject: UFO Cult May Sue U.S. FDA Over Human Cloning Message-ID: <3B433905.1E5C2714@ssz.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010704/ts/science_cloning_dc_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 09:01:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 11:01:12 -0500 Subject: Legal Journals on the Web Message-ID: <3B433DC8.F3E5DC66@ssz.com> http://www.usc.edu/dept/law-lib/legal/journals.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl Wed Jul 4 02:02:34 2001 From: wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl (Wouter Slegers) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:02:34 +0200 Subject: A perfect example of what's wrong with modern legal thinking In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:18:24PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010704110234.B23178@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreative solutions.nl> On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:18:24PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Milosevic claims that he won't enter a plea so the judge does it for him, > instead of entering 'no plea on grounds of jurisdiction'. Hmmm, in the news here in the Netherlands a Dutch law professor said that a guilty plea from Milosevic would obviate the "(dis)proving of guilt"-part of the trial and everything would therefor move to determining the measure of punishment. A plea of not guilty means the trial can start immediately. If no plea is entered, the trial will proceed after a month without a guilty plea. This is not the same as recording it as a non-guilty plea, it's just giving the defendant a month the time to decide whether he wants to skip the part about proving he did it. Seem logically sound to me. Obviously, this is not in the interests of Milosevic. With kind regards, Wouter Slegers From wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl Wed Jul 4 02:02:34 2001 From: wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl (Wouter Slegers) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:02:34 +0200 Subject: A perfect example of what's wrong with modern legal thinking In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:18:24PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010704110234.B23178@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreativesolutions.nl> On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:18:24PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Milosevic claims that he won't enter a plea so the judge does it for him, > instead of entering 'no plea on grounds of jurisdiction'. Hmmm, in the news here in the Netherlands a Dutch law professor said that a guilty plea from Milosevic would obviate the "(dis)proving of guilt"-part of the trial and everything would therefor move to determining the measure of punishment. A plea of not guilty means the trial can start immediately. If no plea is entered, the trial will proceed after a month without a guilty plea. This is not the same as recording it as a non-guilty plea, it's just giving the defendant a month the time to decide whether he wants to skip the part about proving he did it. Seem logically sound to me. Obviously, this is not in the interests of Milosevic. With kind regards, Wouter Slegers From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 09:08:56 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:08:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: <3B432CF4.C63F8597@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > How anyone can actually believe that we have any semblance of "freedom of > religion" in the US is mind boggling. Well, I guess the same can be said for > any belief we have a constitutional government at all, or have had for a long, > long time. March 4, 1861. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Wed Jul 4 08:14:39 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:14:39 -0400 Subject: HAL2001 reminder; schedule; invitation Message-ID: <20010704111439.B7166@ils.unc.edu> About a month ago I sent the HAL 2001 call for participation to cypherpunks. This is a reminder to people who might be thinking of submitting a presentation. We're still looking for more in-depth sessions on crypto topics. The current list of speakers & subevents is online at http://www.hal2001.org/hal/03Topics/06program/index.html The call for participation, and how to submit (as well as how to register to attend) is also there. There had been a cypherpunks gathering subevent that seems to have dropped off the list. I'll try to revive it, but if anyone knows who was thinking of organizing this, please drop me a note. Brief facts: August 12-14 on the campus of the U. of Twente, in the south-east of The Netherlands. -- Greg From wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl Wed Jul 4 02:22:04 2001 From: wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl (Wouter Slegers) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:22:04 +0200 Subject: Of Art, Earthquakes, Image Processing And Restoration In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:12:16AM -0500 References: <20010703095551.A6921@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreatives olutions.nl> Message-ID: <20010704112204.C23178@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreative solutions.nl> On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:12:16AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Wouter Slegers wrote: > > I don't think this texture classification method is going to work on > > normal printed text, as it has no real distinguishing texture. For > Text is printed on paper. Obviously. But to use the texture classification method for 'deshredding', the paper must consist of multiple distinct textures or else you will not get any information out of the method besides the type of paper used. For deshredding, the likelyhood of two pieces of paper being previously attached is needed. So for this to be usable on paper, paper needs to have significantly varying texture. For rice-paper, parchment and watermarks I can see this work, but for normal paper?? Does anyone have experience in this or a cite? With kind regards, Wouter Slegers From wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl Wed Jul 4 02:22:04 2001 From: wouter at yourcreativesolutions.nl (Wouter Slegers) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:22:04 +0200 Subject: Of Art, Earthquakes, Image Processing And Restoration In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:12:16AM -0500 References: <20010703095551.A6921@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreativesolutions.nl> Message-ID: <20010704112204.C23178@tornado-openbsd.internal.yourcreativesolutions.nl> On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:12:16AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Wouter Slegers wrote: > > I don't think this texture classification method is going to work on > > normal printed text, as it has no real distinguishing texture. For > Text is printed on paper. Obviously. But to use the texture classification method for 'deshredding', the paper must consist of multiple distinct textures or else you will not get any information out of the method besides the type of paper used. For deshredding, the likelyhood of two pieces of paper being previously attached is needed. So for this to be usable on paper, paper needs to have significantly varying texture. For rice-paper, parchment and watermarks I can see this work, but for normal paper?? Does anyone have experience in this or a cite? With kind regards, Wouter Slegers From davidthompson at hushmail.com Wed Jul 4 12:26:53 2001 From: davidthompson at hushmail.com (davidthompson at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:26:53 -0800 (PDT) Subject: New Hushmail version Message-ID: <200107041824.LAA11037@user8.hushmail.com> Sounds like some neat stuff going on at Hushmail. OpenPGP keys? Will this mean I can sign my messages and have non-hush users verify them? That would be great. Plus the ability to store the Hush applet locally would answer one of the big objections people have had. I wonder, are the keys stored locally too? That seems important. But what's this about cutting back from 5MB to 2MB? Geez, a MB costs less than a penny these days. Can they really have so many users that saving 2 cents a user will matter? DT ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 03:50:55 -0700 Subject: Important V2 Notice From: support at hushmail.com To: Dear HushMail user, HushMail Version 2.0 will launch in early July! Please read the following instructions carefully to ensure a smooth transition to the enhanced service. * Logging on to Version 2.0 * 1. Enter your username as usual. 2. A pop-up box will advise you that a new Thawte certificate is validating the authenticity of the version 2.0 HushMail applet. - To proceed you must click Yes 嚙 3. Enter your passphrase as usual. Your next step is to upgrade your Hush key pairs. This involves generating new OpenPGP keys by moving your mouse randomly within a key-generation application. At no point in this process are your email, attachments, or private keys vulnerable. After you have upgraded to OpenPGP key pairs, you will be automatically transferred to the HushMail Version 2.0 login page. 4. You now have the option to install certain HushMail application files locally. In HushMail Version 2.0, users have the option to install the Hush applet Java嚙 class files on their hard drive. The Java applet that HushMail utilizes allows email messages to be encrypted before being sent to the Internet The implications of a local install are: *Faster access This will save time as it means users no longer have to wait for the download every time they log in. *Authentic code Hush delivers its Java classes in a signed archive. Until now the class files were delivered each time the user logged in. With Version 2 the class files may be installed locally, thus requiring the user to check the validity of the files only once. 5. Enter your passphrase as usual. Now check out the great new look and features of HushMail Version 2.0! * Important notice * - HushMail 2.0 allows you to manage your mail more efficiently, as the amount of disk space you have used is now displayed. In version 2.0 the disk storage space allotted to each free HushMail account is reduced from 5MB to 2MB. We have made this decision in order to continue to provide and to improve this free service. This reduction in storage space will take place on July 20. We advise you to delete mail in excess of the new 2MB limit to ensure a smooth migration to the upgraded service. Alternatively, you may take this opportunity to obtain a HushMail Premium account at a celebratory launch price from only US$2.49 per month. Go to http://www.hushmail.com/upgrade/ for more details. - In preparation for the launch, HushMail users must ensure that the mail in their HushMail folders is within their allotted disk storage space. If they are over the 2MB (HushMail free accounts) or 32MB (HushMail Premium accounts) limit during the migration period, archived mail in excess of the storage limit may be lost permanently. - Throughout the migration period, which will last about three weeks from launch, we will be transferring your email to a new, faster, even more robust storage system. During this time, your old email messages may not be available. Don嚙緣 worry. They are safe and will be transferred back into your email account. Premium account users and extremely frequent users will be given preference during this process. At no point in this process is encrypted email ever unencrypted. - Users may occasionally encounter some downtime over this migration period. The disruption to service will be minimal and we apologize in advance. * Troubleshooting * There will be a help link and a number of FAQs posted to assist you in resolving any issues you should encounter during migration to Version 2.0. * New Product Announcement * HushIdentity 嚙 secure Web-based email system for your business - Encrypted email @ your domain Experience the security of HushMail with your own business or personal domain email address. - Cost-effective managed PKI solution for your small business Register 10 email accounts from only US$19.99 per month Find out more at, http://www.hushidentity.com/ Thank you for using HushMail as your secure mailing solution. We appreciate your continued support and hope you will be pleased with this enhanced service. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 10:19:20 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:19:20 -0500 Subject: The Register - Money tracking by micro chip Message-ID: <3B435018.670B3270@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/20198.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Wed Jul 4 12:36:41 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:36:41 -0700 Subject: ScienceNet - Do identical twins have identical fingerprints ? In-Reply-To: <3B4076BE.B1BBDB70@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010704123452.03ab9f30@pop3.lvcm.com> From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 09:59:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:59:23 -0400 Subject: Another problem with 'automated enforcement' In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:43:56PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010704125923.C27788@cluebot.com> How do you call a radar gun or a 7-11 video camera or a fingerprint matching computer or an EZ-Pass that says someone was speeding? Answer: You don't. You call the technician who runs the device, or the person who developed the device, and try to establish that the facts are true. Defense can challenge, but don't be surprised if they're unsuccessful. -Declan On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:43:56PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > How do you call a video camera to the stand to give their deposition as > to the situation in which the photo was taken? > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. > > Ludwig Wittgenstein > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 11:31:30 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 13:31:30 -0500 Subject: The Register - Canadian Tire loses fight to call itself 'crap' Message-ID: <3B436102.7FC45EF6@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20197.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Wed Jul 4 13:54:52 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:54:52 -0700 Subject: Calling witnesses--[On a tangent] In-Reply-To: <000d01c10450$2057e310$778d7c3f@Annabell> References: <000d01c10450$2057e310$778d7c3f@Annabell> Message-ID: >On a more or less off topic tangent, Do you think as far as the intelligence >and competency of these language speaking and otherwise intelligent animals, >If it was proven that they were equally or more so then ourself(the human >race), could we admitt to that fact? Only if they invented money and digital watches. -- -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Jul 4 13:55:05 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Textual "Child Porn" Conviction in Ohio Message-ID: <200107042055.f64Kt6D08434@artifact.psychedelic.net> Here's some more screwing around with the First Amendment from our friends in the great state of Ohio. Ohio, as you may recall, brought us the Supreme Court decision permitting state laws to call anything they like "child porn," including mere nudity and mere text. It also brought us the Mapplethorpe Trial, the "Salo" gay bookstore arrest, the Larry Flynt trial, and served as the birthplace of the National Coalition Against Pornography. Now Ohio is again at the forefront of blue-nosed preoccupation with private conduct in the home. In a case the prosecutor calls a "breakthrough" in the war against child pornography, a Columbus man pleaded guilty to a single charge of pandering child pornography and got a 10 year prison sentence. His only crime was writing words in a personal journal, which he never showed to anyone, and which was discovered during a routine search of his home. Had he gone to trial and lost, he would have faced a 16 year prison sentence. The law in question makes it illegal to "create, reproduce, or publish any obscene material that has a minor as one of its participants or portrayed observers." Apparently, in Ohio, it's even illegal to write about a minor watching someone else have sex. I believe this to be the first successful US child porn prosecution for purely textual material created for private use. Civil Libertarians are, of course, unamused. I wonder how many of them have the balls to say so publicly, and risk getting labeled as supporting the sexual abuse of children. My guess is that the ACLU will keep silent on this one, and stick with defending the right of Jewish children not to be frightened by Santa. http://www.dispatch.com/news/news01/july01/755632.html ----- Brian Dalton wrote fictitious tales of sexually abusing and torturing children in his private journal, intending that no one else see them, he said. But when his probation officer found the journal during a routine search of Dalton's Columbus home, prosecutors charged him with pandering obscenity involving a minor. In Franklin County Common Pleas Court yesterday, the 22-year-old man's written words cost him 10 years in prison. The case worries civil-rights lawyer Benson Wolman, who said it has free-speech implications. "What you're saying is somebody can't, in essence, confess their fantasy into a personal journal for fear they have socially unacceptable fantasies, then ultimately they end up getting prosecuted,'' said Wolman, former director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Ohio. "This is the only case that I know of where we are talking about a journal -- just written words. It surprises and offends me that an action should be brought based on a journal.'' But Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Brien called the case a "breakthrough'' in the battle against child pornography. The journal came to light earlier this year when a probation officer discovered it during the search. Dalton was on probation from a 1998 pandering conviction involving photographs of child pornography. The journal contains the names and ages -- 10 and 11 -- of three children who had been placed in a cage in a basement. It details how the children were sexually molested and tortured. At first, police were concerned the accounts were real, prosecutors said. However, Dalton told authorities they were fictitious, and there was no evidence to the contrary, Assistant Prosecutor Christian Domis said. The 14-page journal was presented to a grand jury. The contents were so disturbing that jurors asked a detective to stop reading after about two pages, Domis said. "It was seriously the most disturbing thing I ever read,'' Domis said. "There was a woman on the grand jury who was crying.'' Domis said most pandering cases in Franklin County involve photographs of child pornography. "This is one of the first felony cases in Franklin County that involves the written word -- a writing somebody created on their own,'' he said. "Even without passing it on to anyone else, he committed a felony.'' The Feb. 23 indictment alleges that Dalton "did create, reproduce or publish any obscene material that has a minor as one of its participants or portrayed observers.'' Wolman said he cannot recall an obscenity case involving "mere words that were not disseminated.'' "It is just this kind of thing, I think, that is a misapplication of what the law intends,'' he said. But because Dalton pleaded guilty to the pandering charge, he cannot appeal the conviction or 10- year sentence -- seven for the pandering charge and three for violating probation. In exchange for his guilty plea, prosecutors withdrew a second pandering charge. He would have faced 16 years if convicted of both. "The law hasn't really been challenged and he would have had the opportunity to do that,'' defense attorney Isabella Dixon said. "But the cost to him is a lot of time in jail to challenge it.'' At yesterday's sentencing, Dalton told Judge Nodine Miller: "I know what I wrote was disturbing. "Over the past few months, I looked back at it and realized it was not something I could do. I don't know how I imagined to write anything like that.'' -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 05:10:07 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:10:07 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Pigdog] Freenet v. Bunkernet (Was: [EWAR] Top firms retreat intobunker toward off anarchists (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:12:33 -0700 (PDT) From: George J.P. Perry Reply-To: pigdog-l at bearfountain.com To: Character References Subject: [Pigdog] Freenet v. Bunkernet (Was: [EWAR] Top firms retreat into bunker toward off anarchists (fwd) Old news, yes, but I was thinking about models for durability... ... inocculation... v. quarantine... glasnost v. black ops... and I remembered this: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:08:22 -0700 From: MIKE SPITZER To: ewar at topica.com Subject: [EWAR] Top firms retreat into bunker to ward off anarchists "You have to understand. Future wars will be fought by capitalists and anti-capitalists as society polarises. When that happens, control of information will be as important as control of territory used to be in conventional conflicts. If you can stop your enemy from destroying your information, then you have a good chance of winning the war." http://news.independent.co.uk/digital/update/story.jsp?story=77374 13 June 2001 Top firms retreat into bunker to ward off anarchists By Steve Boggan 11 June 2001 Some of Britain's biggest companies are running their internet operations on systems installed in a 300ft-deep nuclear blast-proof bunker to protect customers from violent anti-capitalist campaigners. They are renting space in hermetically sealed rooms capable of withstanding a one Kiloton explosion, electro-magnetic "pulse bombs", electronic eavesdropping and chemical and biological warfare. Hundreds of companies have already installed systems in The Bunker - formerly known as RAF Ash, outside Sandwich in Kent - and dozens more are understood to be queuing up for space. They have been driven underground by the IRA bombings of Canary Wharf and Bishopsgate in London and, increasingly, by concerns over the operations of anarchists behind sophisticated protests such as the May Day anti-capitalist rallies. At stake is billions of pounds worth of business conducted over the internet. Companies are concerned that while electronic security - using increasingly sophisticated encryption codes - is gradually making customers feel more confident about conducting credit-card transactions over the internet, the physical side of e-business is still vulnerable. The fear is that servers, the small electronic boxes through which customer traffic and business transactions on the web are channelled, could be physically vulnerable to theft, damage or sabotage. For companies conducting business solely over the internet, the loss of a server could be catastrophic; while offline there can be no sales and no income, and customers will go elsewhere. Records, too, are vulnerable to attack, hacking or simple damage, resulting in shut-downs that could cost even traditional companies millions of pounds. Now organisations such as Scottish Widows, BTCellnet, Richer Sounds and the Bank Automated Clearance System - which deals with inter-bank transactions - have acted, putting their e-business and confidential dealings out of harm's way behind guards, barbed wire, dogs, electronic detection systems, millions of tons of earth, 4m of concrete, pressurised air locks and rows of steel doors up to 18in thick. "This isn't paranoia or fantasy, this is the future," said Dr Ian Angell, professor of information systems at the London School of Economics and author of The New Barbarian Manifesto. "There are sophisticated anti-capitalists out there who feel a great deal of resentment against the business world. These are the new Luddites and, given half a chance, they would smash the machine to pieces." Behind The Bunker is a company called AL Digital Communications, established by the brothers Adam and Ben Laurie and Dominic Hawken. Ben Laurie is already revered in the computing world as the man who co-wrote Apache-SSL, perhaps the best-known encryption technology available over the internet - a tool used by some anti-capitalists when arranging demonstrations. Three years ago, AL Digital heard that an RAF facility with state-of-the art electronics and communications systems was to be auctioned off. RAF Ash was one of four underground command and control centres at the heart of Britain's national air defence system. As part of a cost-cutting exercise, it was to be mothballed only seven years after undergoing a complete overhaul and upgrade. The AL Digital team made a sealed bid - still secret, according to the Ministry of Defence - and the 60,000sq ft bunker with 18 acres of land was theirs. "The facility was designed to withstand a nuclear attack without disrupting RAF computer systems," Dominic Hawken said. "Their computers were about radar, but there is little difference between that and hosting a website. Some people have argued that our defences are a little over the top, but they're here now ? what can we do, shave a little off the walls?" To enter, visitors must pass through security checks before being allowed through layer after layer of restricted access; of the 49 employees on site, only a handful are allowed into the bowels of the structure. Here, one finds doors that take two people to open and concrete grottoes called Faraday cages that act as electric buffers between the hostile outside and the environmentally pure, air-filtered inside. There are three back-up power systems big enough to fire up a small town - when busy, the National Grid buys energy from The Bunker's four turbines. There are dedicated telecommunications lines installed for the RAF but now available to customers at between 250 pounds a month for a single server on a shelf, to "several millions" of pounds a year for the kind of huge space being rented by a large - and unnamed - international computer company already inside The Bunker. There is also a fire station, vast underground fuel and water tanks and an array of cameras on corridors and servers - you can even have a camera pointed permanently at your little box to make sure no one tampers with it. Mr Hawken added: "Co-location is now the buzzword; if your records are destroyed, you want at least one back-up in another place so your business can keep operating. There are many reasons why companies are choosing the safety of a nuclear bunker, but I think the anti-capitalist threat is the most compelling. "That whole thing is about bringing down large companies and the weakest link is to get to where their information is stored and destroy it. Because of encryption, they can no longer interfere with data, so they may try to damage the hardware that physically contains or controls it. For companies operating over the internet, that means targeting their servers." None of The Bunker's customers contacted by The Independent would comment for security reasons. However, one, a large multinational computer corporation, said: "The Bunker provides us with a level of physical security and reliability unobtainable in the US. Experience taught us that digital security unaccompanied by physical security is worthless. The Bunker provides us with the highest levels of both." Other companies said they simply felt they could relax knowing their internet operations were physically safe from attack. Professor Angell said: "You have to understand. Future wars will be fought by capitalists and anti-capitalists as society polarises. When that happens, control of information will be as important as control of territory used to be in conventional conflicts. If you can stop your enemy from destroying your information, then you have a good chance of winning the war." ======================================================= Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT FROM THE DESK OF: *Michael Spitzer* The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends ======================================================= Post to: ewar at topica.com. Unsubscribe to: ewar-unsubscribe at topica.com. List info: www.topica.com/lists/ewar From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 05:10:07 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:10:07 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [Pigdog] Freenet v. Bunkernet (Was: [EWAR] Top firms retreat intobunker toward off anarchists (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:12:33 -0700 (PDT) From: George J.P. Perry To: Character References Subject: [Pigdog] Freenet v. Bunkernet (Was: [EWAR] Top firms retreat into bunker toward off anarchists (fwd) Old news, yes, but I was thinking about models for durability... ... inocculation... v. quarantine... glasnost v. black ops... and I remembered this: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:08:22 -0700 From: MIKE SPITZER To: ewar at topica.com Subject: [EWAR] Top firms retreat into bunker to ward off anarchists "You have to understand. Future wars will be fought by capitalists and anti-capitalists as society polarises. When that happens, control of information will be as important as control of territory used to be in conventional conflicts. If you can stop your enemy from destroying your information, then you have a good chance of winning the war." http://news.independent.co.uk/digital/update/story.jsp?story=77374 13 June 2001 Top firms retreat into bunker to ward off anarchists By Steve Boggan 11 June 2001 Some of Britain's biggest companies are running their internet operations on systems installed in a 300ft-deep nuclear blast-proof bunker to protect customers from violent anti-capitalist campaigners. They are renting space in hermetically sealed rooms capable of withstanding a one Kiloton explosion, electro-magnetic "pulse bombs", electronic eavesdropping and chemical and biological warfare. Hundreds of companies have already installed systems in The Bunker - formerly known as RAF Ash, outside Sandwich in Kent - and dozens more are understood to be queuing up for space. They have been driven underground by the IRA bombings of Canary Wharf and Bishopsgate in London and, increasingly, by concerns over the operations of anarchists behind sophisticated protests such as the May Day anti-capitalist rallies. At stake is billions of pounds worth of business conducted over the internet. Companies are concerned that while electronic security - using increasingly sophisticated encryption codes - is gradually making customers feel more confident about conducting credit-card transactions over the internet, the physical side of e-business is still vulnerable. The fear is that servers, the small electronic boxes through which customer traffic and business transactions on the web are channelled, could be physically vulnerable to theft, damage or sabotage. For companies conducting business solely over the internet, the loss of a server could be catastrophic; while offline there can be no sales and no income, and customers will go elsewhere. Records, too, are vulnerable to attack, hacking or simple damage, resulting in shut-downs that could cost even traditional companies millions of pounds. Now organisations such as Scottish Widows, BTCellnet, Richer Sounds and the Bank Automated Clearance System - which deals with inter-bank transactions - have acted, putting their e-business and confidential dealings out of harm's way behind guards, barbed wire, dogs, electronic detection systems, millions of tons of earth, 4m of concrete, pressurised air locks and rows of steel doors up to 18in thick. "This isn't paranoia or fantasy, this is the future," said Dr Ian Angell, professor of information systems at the London School of Economics and author of The New Barbarian Manifesto. "There are sophisticated anti-capitalists out there who feel a great deal of resentment against the business world. These are the new Luddites and, given half a chance, they would smash the machine to pieces." Behind The Bunker is a company called AL Digital Communications, established by the brothers Adam and Ben Laurie and Dominic Hawken. Ben Laurie is already revered in the computing world as the man who co-wrote Apache-SSL, perhaps the best-known encryption technology available over the internet - a tool used by some anti-capitalists when arranging demonstrations. Three years ago, AL Digital heard that an RAF facility with state-of-the art electronics and communications systems was to be auctioned off. RAF Ash was one of four underground command and control centres at the heart of Britain's national air defence system. As part of a cost-cutting exercise, it was to be mothballed only seven years after undergoing a complete overhaul and upgrade. The AL Digital team made a sealed bid - still secret, according to the Ministry of Defence - and the 60,000sq ft bunker with 18 acres of land was theirs. "The facility was designed to withstand a nuclear attack without disrupting RAF computer systems," Dominic Hawken said. "Their computers were about radar, but there is little difference between that and hosting a website. Some people have argued that our defences are a little over the top, but they're here now ? what can we do, shave a little off the walls?" To enter, visitors must pass through security checks before being allowed through layer after layer of restricted access; of the 49 employees on site, only a handful are allowed into the bowels of the structure. Here, one finds doors that take two people to open and concrete grottoes called Faraday cages that act as electric buffers between the hostile outside and the environmentally pure, air-filtered inside. There are three back-up power systems big enough to fire up a small town - when busy, the National Grid buys energy from The Bunker's four turbines. There are dedicated telecommunications lines installed for the RAF but now available to customers at between 250 pounds a month for a single server on a shelf, to "several millions" of pounds a year for the kind of huge space being rented by a large - and unnamed - international computer company already inside The Bunker. There is also a fire station, vast underground fuel and water tanks and an array of cameras on corridors and servers - you can even have a camera pointed permanently at your little box to make sure no one tampers with it. Mr Hawken added: "Co-location is now the buzzword; if your records are destroyed, you want at least one back-up in another place so your business can keep operating. There are many reasons why companies are choosing the safety of a nuclear bunker, but I think the anti-capitalist threat is the most compelling. "That whole thing is about bringing down large companies and the weakest link is to get to where their information is stored and destroy it. Because of encryption, they can no longer interfere with data, so they may try to damage the hardware that physically contains or controls it. For companies operating over the internet, that means targeting their servers." None of The Bunker's customers contacted by The Independent would comment for security reasons. However, one, a large multinational computer corporation, said: "The Bunker provides us with a level of physical security and reliability unobtainable in the US. Experience taught us that digital security unaccompanied by physical security is worthless. The Bunker provides us with the highest levels of both." Other companies said they simply felt they could relax knowing their internet operations were physically safe from attack. Professor Angell said: "You have to understand. Future wars will be fought by capitalists and anti-capitalists as society polarises. When that happens, control of information will be as important as control of territory used to be in conventional conflicts. If you can stop your enemy from destroying your information, then you have a good chance of winning the war." ======================================================= Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT FROM THE DESK OF: *Michael Spitzer* The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends ======================================================= Post to: ewar at topica.com. Unsubscribe to: ewar-unsubscribe at topica.com. List info: www.topica.com/lists/ewar From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 4 14:39:44 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:39:44 -0700 Subject: Textual "Child Porn" Conviction in Ohio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inchoate wrote: > 'routine search'? Remind me never > to go to Ohio. It's every state of the Union. Parolees are still prisoners. Just as you can search a prisoner's cell, a parole officer can search a parolee's house. S a n d y From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 05:45:57 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:45:57 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Complacency (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Tom To: Jeff Bone Cc: fork at xent.com Subject: Re: Complacency Big Brother by Popular Mandate? Seems many of our fellow citizens are all in favor of the BB knowing our faces , working day actions[1] and yet at the same time are willing to redo the rights of free speech in order to keep some things private[2]. Ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey. And the beat goes on across the globe[3] as some country's are forcing their ISPs to all access to any government searches while others rule against the use of certain devices in obtaining information. [1]http://www.shrm.org/surveys/privacy.htm [2]http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/04/06/privacy.poll/?s=10 [3]http://www.privacyinternational.org/ As seen on http://pleasant.blogspot.com/ http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 05:45:57 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:45:57 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Complacency (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Tom To: Jeff Bone Cc: fork at xent.com Subject: Re: Complacency Big Brother by Popular Mandate? Seems many of our fellow citizens are all in favor of the BB knowing our faces , working day actions[1] and yet at the same time are willing to redo the rights of free speech in order to keep some things private[2]. Ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey. And the beat goes on across the globe[3] as some country's are forcing their ISPs to all access to any government searches while others rule against the use of certain devices in obtaining information. [1]http://www.shrm.org/surveys/privacy.htm [2]http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/04/06/privacy.poll/?s=10 [3]http://www.privacyinternational.org/ As seen on http://pleasant.blogspot.com/ http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 4 14:50:21 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:50:21 -0700 Subject: Thoughtcrime (Re: Textual "Child Porn" Conviction in Ohio) In-Reply-To: <200107042055.f64Kt6D08434@artifact.psychedelic.net> References: <200107042055.f64Kt6D08434@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: At 1:55 PM -0700 7/4/01, Eric Cordian wrote: >Here's some more screwing around with the First Amendment from our friends >in the great state of Ohio. > >Ohio, as you may recall, brought us the Supreme Court decision permitting >state laws to call anything they like "child porn," including mere nudity >and mere text. It also brought us the Mapplethorpe Trial, the "Salo" gay >bookstore arrest, the Larry Flynt trial, and served as the birthplace of >the National Coalition Against Pornography. > >Now Ohio is again at the forefront of blue-nosed preoccupation with >private conduct in the home. > >In a case the prosecutor calls a "breakthrough" in the war against child >pornography, a Columbus man pleaded guilty to a single charge of pandering >child pornography and got a 10 year prison sentence. His only crime was >writing words in a personal journal, which he never showed to anyone, and >which was discovered during a routine search of his home. "During a routine search of his home." This is becoming more and more common. King George is no doubt laughing at how the foolish colonists have created a system worse than anything ever imagined during colonial days. >I believe this to be the first successful US child porn prosecution for >purely textual material created for private use. > >Civil Libertarians are, of course, unamused. I wonder how many of them >have the balls to say so publicly, and risk getting labeled as supporting >the sexual abuse of children. I say so. What a person _writes_ cannot be a crime, no matter how repugnant the thoughts may be to others. That we are sending people off to prison for 10 years for fantasies written in their journals shows what kind of society we now live in. That there is not an uproar over searching a man's journals "during a routine search of his home" shows the situation is probably hopeless. >My guess is that the ACLU will keep silent on this one, and stick with >defending the right of Jewish children not to be frightened by Santa. > Lot of Jews in the ACLU, and Jews are well-known to be censorious and hateful of liberty (Feinstein, Lieberman, Schumer, the whole qabal). >"What you're saying is somebody can't, in essence, confess their fantasy >into a personal journal for fear they have socially unacceptable >fantasies, then ultimately they end up getting prosecuted,'' said Wolman, >former director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Ohio. Already the case with shrinks, at least in many state. Confess a fantasy, even an absurd and non-credible fantasy, and "Tarasoff" requires the shrink to narc out his or her patient. Here in California, psychiatrists, counsellors, and family therapists are Agents of the State. >"This is one of the first felony cases in Franklin County that involves >the written word -- a writing somebody created on their own,'' he said. > >"Even without passing it on to anyone else, he committed a felony.'' Thoughtcrime. > >At yesterday's sentencing, Dalton told Judge Nodine Miller: "I know what I >wrote was disturbing. > >"Over the past few months, I looked back at it and realized it was not >something I could do. I don't know how I imagined to write anything like >that.'' "He came to realize that he _loved_ Big Brother." --Winston Smith From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 11:53:55 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 14:53:55 -0400 Subject: FC: FBI is investigating an alleged "Black Bloc" threat sent to Politech Message-ID: The FBI is investigating an alleged threat against the Cato Institute, the world's leading free-market think tank, sent to Politech. Chuck0 sent a message to Politech that I forwarded -- as part of an ongoing discussion about privacy and globalization -- on Monday: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02214.html The message said: "Cato's little insult of the black bloc means that we'll be paying Cato HQ a visit this coming September. People who work in glass buildings shouldn't throw the first rhetorical stones." The Cato Institute was reportedly vandalized in January during the Bush inauguration protests. (http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration-highlights.html) It is a prominent building with a huge glass atrium at 10th and Mass. Ave. in downtown Washington. The insult directed at the Black Bloc appeared in an article written by Aaron Lukas, an analyst at the Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies. It was published in the National Review and I reposted it to Politech with Aaron's permission. Aaron wrote that "vandalism, violence, and harassment are acceptable behavior for the Black Blockheads and Ruckus-Societarians of the world." (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02210.html) The Black Bloc is difficult to define, but it has been described as a revolutionary anti-capitalist action group, and also as a collective of black-masked anarchists who are the "special forces" of the movement. A Washington, DC "Anarchist Neighborhood" site (http://www.infoshop.org/hood/dc.html) that lists Chuck0 as a contact says World Bank/IMF protests are scheduled for the city in September. FBI Agent Dave Dawson in the agency's headquarters is investigating Chuck0's message sent to Politech. Politech is a journalistic enterprise protected by the First Amendment, and I generally treat email sent to me in confidence, as a news organization would treat a confidential source. When someone sends me mail and indicates they would like it redistributed to the list -- typically done by emailing both declan at well.com and the politech at politechbot.com list address, as Chuck0 did -- the relationship is akin to someone writing a letter to the editor of a newspaper and asking that it be published. While I do not countenance attacks on property, responsible journalists don't like to chat with law enforcement about people who talk to them or send letters to the editor. It makes their readers less likely to trust their independence in the future. I have not yet spoken with Agent Dawson. If we speak, my response will be: 1. I will not reveal information about Politech subscribers. Politech's privacy policy (http://www.politechbot.com/info/privacy.html) says: "We do not sell or rent information you provide us. We intend to challenge any subpoena or other legal process seeking access to the limited information we do store." 2. I will not reveal any other information I may or may not possess (such as complete headers of email messages or other correspondence that may or may not exist between me and Chuck0 or anyone else on this topic). 3. I will describe in general terms, such as I would at a speaking engagement, in an article or in conversation with a colleague, what Politech is and how long I have been editing it. -Declan Editor, Politech This message will be archived at: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02218.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 12:01:39 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:01:39 -0400 Subject: FBI is investigating an alleged "Black Bloc" threat sent to Politech Message-ID: <20010704150139.B29970@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From support at hotwire.com Wed Jul 4 15:05:43 2001 From: support at hotwire.com (support at hotwire.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Registration Confirmation Message-ID: <3301920.994284289516.JavaMail.weblogic@mx01.hotwire.com> Dear joe cypherpunk, Welcome and thank you for registering with Hotwire! Please note that you will need your user name and password to log in the next time you visit us. Remember, passwords are case-sensitive. You must enter your password exactly the same way, including capitalization, each time you log in. Now that you're registered, you can search Hotwire for the best prices on airline tickets (domestic and international), hotel reservations and rental cars. Tell us where and when you want to travel and we'll do the rest, offering you great deals in just minutes. With your Hotwire account, you can easily update your contact and credit card information; change your preferences; add favorite flight, room and car rental searches; or view your Hotwire purchases. Rest assured that your privacy is protected and all transactions involving personal information are done through a secure server. If you have any questions, please see the Customer Service section of our site. You may also contact us by sending an email to support at hotwire.com, or a fax to 1-701-280-5524. Our customer service associates are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at 1-888-362-1234. Thanks again for registering with Hotwire. http://www.hotwire.com P.S. Help us spread the word about Hotwire! The more customers we have, the better travel deals we can negotiate for you. From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 4 15:09:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:09:18 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:39 PM -0700 7/4/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Inchoate wrote: > >> 'routine search'? Remind me never >> to go to Ohio. > >It's every state of the Union. Parolees are still prisoners. Just as you >can search a prisoner's cell, a parole officer can search a parolee's house. The entire parole process is itself an open sore on our justice system. It's turned into a control system, a "force magnfication" scheme. Instead of actually having to _jail_ all of the people, they release them early, take away their key Bill of Rights protections (2nd, 4th, etc., including the vote) and have them as virtual slaves of the system. From an economic/libertarian point of view, what this has done is to alter the costs of making things criminal. Standard economic theory: making more people criminals doesn't cost much, and makes them more malleable. As so many people have said so pithily, "At the rate they're going, we'll _all_ be felons." And felons don't need no steenking constitutional rights. Were Orwell writing today, he'd probably replace his "proles" with "parolees." And the cameras in each room would merely be part of the parole process. One of the biggest concerns Keith Henson had in his probable 6-month sentence in his case (which is another issue) is that he was likely to receive a 5-year probation term, during which his house could (and likely would) be entered at any time, day or night, and during which period his private files and records would be scrutinized for any thoughtcrimes which could be used to send him back for a longer period. (Which happened with both Bell and Parker.) As a felon myself, and one who committed a dozen or so felonies each carrying 3-year terms just last week, I realize how the entire probation/parole process is what Big Brother really likes the most about our so-called justice system. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 4 15:34:45 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:34:45 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > The entire parole process is itself > an open sore on our justice system. Yes and no. I know I'd rather be on parole than in the slammer. (Of course, given the choice I'd go for "none of the above.") I have an acquaintance who just got out after being in for seven years. Even though she is required to live in a half-way house, cannot go anywhere but work nor may visit anyone without express permission of her parole officer, she's very happy to at least be out in the world and not locked up. The problem is not that parole exists--be thankful that it does. The problem is the criminalization of every area of life. S a n d y From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 4 15:43:33 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:43:33 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:34 PM -0700 7/4/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Tim May wrote: > >> The entire parole process is itself >> an open sore on our justice system. > >Yes and no. I know I'd rather be on parole than in the slammer. (Of >course, given the choice I'd go for "none of the above.") I have an >acquaintance who just got out after being in for seven years. Even though >she is required to live in a half-way house, cannot go anywhere but work nor >may visit anyone without express permission of her parole officer, she's >very happy to at least be out in the world and not locked up. > >The problem is not that parole exists--be thankful that it does. The >problem is the criminalization of every area of life. It's the very fact that so much probation exists that makes it economically feasible for so many behaviors to now be felonious. If residents of a local community had to actually _pay_ for the building of enough prisons to house the thoughtcriminals, there would be far fewer things classified as felonies. The parole machine _is_ what makes the criminalization of every area of life so attractive to the "it can't happen to me!" crowd. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From rick65 at kukamail.com Wed Jul 4 16:03:47 2001 From: rick65 at kukamail.com (rick65 at kukamail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:03:47 Subject: toner cartridges Message-ID: <871.223386.117251@kukamail.com> PLEASE FORWARD TO THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR PURCHASING YOUR LASER PRINTER SUPPLIES **** VORTEX SUPPLIES **** LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGES, COPIER AND FAX CARTRIDGES SAVE UP TO 30% FROM RETAIL ORDER BY PHONE:1-888-288-9043 ORDER BY FAX: 1-888-977-1577 CUSTOMER SERVICE: 1-888-248-2015 E-MAIL REMOVAL LINE: 1-888-248-4930 UNIVERSITY AND/OR SCHOOL PURCHASE ORDERS WELCOME. (NO CREDIT APPROVAL REQUIRED) ALL OTHER PURCHASE ORDER REQUESTS REQUIRE CREDIT APPROVAL. PAY BY CHECK (C.O.D), CREDIT CARD OR PURCHASE ORDER (NET 30 DAYS). 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ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 4 16:09:24 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:09:24 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sampo Syreeni > But just as Tim argues, the latter > always involves cost-effectiveness > too...There should always be a > sufficient, predictable cost > associated with putting people > away to guard against > criminalization for convenience, > prudence and political gain only. I'm sure that "cost-effectiveness" has a role to play here. I just don't agree that the cost savings of parole are all that big a factor. The US has more prisoners per capital than just about anyone (I think the US is surpassed by Russia and maybe South Africa). So we've already made the decision that we can afford to lock up a lot of people. Also, the assumption that locking up more people comes at some sort of linear increase in costs. One of the simplest answers is to just overcrowd the facilities "we" already have. No, I think Tim and Sampo have the cart before the horse. We have the criminal laws we have because that feeds the government, not because we save so much with parole. Eliminating parole by overcrowding or by building still more prisons would increase, not decrease human suffering. Honestly, would you rather wear a ankle transponder or be Bruno's bitch? S a n d y From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 07:24:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:24:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Black Hat Briefings 2001 Conference Speakers Release (fwd) Message-ID: (I guess I've been bitten by Choate. I hope the antidote is working). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:22:26 -0400 From: B.K. DeLong To: press at blackhat.com Subject: Black Hat Briefings 2001 Conference Speakers Release For Immediate Release Contacts B.K. DeLong press at blackhat.com +1.617.877.3271 BLACK HAT BRIEFINGS 2001 SESSIONS HIGHLIGHT NEW COMPUTER SECURITY TOOLS, TECHNOLOGIES AND TACTICS Top Industry Gurus will Talk About Key Problem and Offer Solutions to Todays Security Issues http://www.blackhat.com/ -- Black Hat Inc. announced today over 40 different speaker sessions for this summer's Black Hat Briefings and Training 2001, the annual conference and workshop designed to help computer professionals better understand the security risks to their computer and information infrastructures by potential threats. This year's show will focus on hot topics including Honey Pot servers, secure programming techniques, incident response, Web-based vulnerabilities and Distributed Denial of Service attacks at the Caesars Palace Hotel and Casino in the heart of Las Vegas, 11 through 12 July, 2001. Top-notch speakers will deliver to the conference's core audience of IT & network security experts, consultants and administrators the newest developments on the vital security issues facing organizations using large networks with a mix of operating systems. "Our goal is to present a vendor-neutral environment where conference attendees can receive key intelligence in a face-to-face environment with the people developing the tools used by and against hackers," says Jeff Moss, founder of Black Hat Inc. "Our speakers discuss the strategies involved in correcting existing problems and inform attendees on upcoming issues, preparing them for the future." The lineup of Black Hat Briefings presenters for 2001 include: -- James Bamford, author of NSA books "The Puzzle Palace" & "Body of Secrets", will discuss some of his key research tactics that lead to his exposes about the most secret government agency in the United States. -- Richard Clarke is the senior U.S. government official responsible for cyber security policy. He was appointed by the President as the first national coordinator for security, infrastructure protection and counter-terrorism. He chairs the U.S. government's committees on cyber security, continuity of operations, counter-terrorism, domestic preparedness and international crime. -- Steve Christey, Lead INFOSEC Engineer in the Security and Information Operations Division at The MITRE Corporation will discuss the Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures (CVE) concept (naming standard for computer security vulnerabilities that hackers exploit to break into systems) and the challenges that MITRE faced trying to meet the criteria created for the concept. -- Martin Roesch, founder of Sourcefire Inc and author of the open source "Snort" Network Intrusion Detection System will talk about the new features in version 1.8 of the system (including features to improve it's enterprise scalability, resistance to anti-NIDS attacks, and integration with other security products and protocols) as well as the architecture and evolution of the next-generation Snort 2.0 system, is currently in the planning stages. -- Lance Spitzner, founder of the Honey Net Project and the group's 25 members will present the resulting research from their endeavors and discuss the goals of the project, how they accomplished their research and what they have discovered. -- Jose Nazario, a Biochemistry Ph.D. student from Cleveland, Ohio will discuss the future of Internet worm viruses and how the current crop (Ramen, Melissa, ILoveYou) are just the tip of the iceberg. Nazario applies the morphing approaches of biological systems with computing, and shows how new threats and adaptive defense strategies emerge. -- Dr. Ian Goldberg from Zero Knowledge Systems (known for cracking the first RSA Secret Key Challenge in three and a half hours, breaking Netscape's implementation of SSL encryption, and breaking the cryptography in the GSM cellular phone standard) will be discussing the "highly flawed" Wired Equivalent Privacy in the 802.11 wireless network standard. -- Brian Martin, founder and staff member of Attrition.org will cover the lessons learned and insight gained from monitoring the world of Web site defacements including reactions from the defacers themselves, system administrators, law enforcement and journalists as well as identification and analysis of several trends and statistics. Cryptography expert Bruce Schneier and Technology Futurist Richard Thieme will be giving this year's lunchtime presentations. Black Hat Inc. will also conduct computer security training for several different topics the two days prior to the briefings - 9 through 10 July. Subjects include: -- NT Network Intrusion Workshop -- Complete Windows 2000 Security -- Advanced Scanning with ICMP -- Reverse Engineering and Security Auditing with IDA The instructors for the training segment of this year's Black Hat are some of the top experts in their field and are fully active in the computer security community. You won't find most of these speakers anywhere else and these handpicked security gurus will train participants in understanding the real threats to any network and how to keep them from being exploited. To register for BlackHat Briefings, visit the Web site at http://www.blackhat.com. Direct any conference-related questions to info at blackhat.com. For press registration, contact B.K. DeLong at +1.617.877.3271 or via email at press at blackhat.com. About Black Hat Inc. Black Hat Inc. was originally founded in 1997 by Jeff Moss to fill the need for computer security professionals to better understand the security risks and potential threats to their information infrastructures and computer systems. Black Hat accomplishes this by assembling a group of vendor-neutral security professionals and having them speak candidly about the problems businesses face and their solutions to those problems. Black Hat Inc. produces 5 briefing & training events a year on 3 different continents. Speakers and attendees travel from all over the world to meet and share in the latest advances in computer security. For more information, visit their Web site at http://www.blackhat.com ### -- B.K. DeLong Press Coordinator Black Hat Briefings +1.617.877.3271 bkdelong at blackhat.com http://www.blackhat.com http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 07:24:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:24:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Black Hat Briefings 2001 Conference Speakers Release (fwd) Message-ID: (I guess I've been bitten by Choate. I hope the antidote is working). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:22:26 -0400 From: B.K. DeLong To: press at blackhat.com Subject: Black Hat Briefings 2001 Conference Speakers Release For Immediate Release Contacts B.K. DeLong press at blackhat.com +1.617.877.3271 BLACK HAT BRIEFINGS 2001 SESSIONS HIGHLIGHT NEW COMPUTER SECURITY TOOLS, TECHNOLOGIES AND TACTICS Top Industry Gurus will Talk About Key Problem and Offer Solutions to Todays Security Issues http://www.blackhat.com/ -- Black Hat Inc. announced today over 40 different speaker sessions for this summer's Black Hat Briefings and Training 2001, the annual conference and workshop designed to help computer professionals better understand the security risks to their computer and information infrastructures by potential threats. This year's show will focus on hot topics including Honey Pot servers, secure programming techniques, incident response, Web-based vulnerabilities and Distributed Denial of Service attacks at the Caesars Palace Hotel and Casino in the heart of Las Vegas, 11 through 12 July, 2001. Top-notch speakers will deliver to the conference's core audience of IT & network security experts, consultants and administrators the newest developments on the vital security issues facing organizations using large networks with a mix of operating systems. "Our goal is to present a vendor-neutral environment where conference attendees can receive key intelligence in a face-to-face environment with the people developing the tools used by and against hackers," says Jeff Moss, founder of Black Hat Inc. "Our speakers discuss the strategies involved in correcting existing problems and inform attendees on upcoming issues, preparing them for the future." The lineup of Black Hat Briefings presenters for 2001 include: -- James Bamford, author of NSA books "The Puzzle Palace" & "Body of Secrets", will discuss some of his key research tactics that lead to his exposes about the most secret government agency in the United States. -- Richard Clarke is the senior U.S. government official responsible for cyber security policy. He was appointed by the President as the first national coordinator for security, infrastructure protection and counter-terrorism. He chairs the U.S. government's committees on cyber security, continuity of operations, counter-terrorism, domestic preparedness and international crime. -- Steve Christey, Lead INFOSEC Engineer in the Security and Information Operations Division at The MITRE Corporation will discuss the Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures (CVE) concept (naming standard for computer security vulnerabilities that hackers exploit to break into systems) and the challenges that MITRE faced trying to meet the criteria created for the concept. -- Martin Roesch, founder of Sourcefire Inc and author of the open source "Snort" Network Intrusion Detection System will talk about the new features in version 1.8 of the system (including features to improve it's enterprise scalability, resistance to anti-NIDS attacks, and integration with other security products and protocols) as well as the architecture and evolution of the next-generation Snort 2.0 system, is currently in the planning stages. -- Lance Spitzner, founder of the Honey Net Project and the group's 25 members will present the resulting research from their endeavors and discuss the goals of the project, how they accomplished their research and what they have discovered. -- Jose Nazario, a Biochemistry Ph.D. student from Cleveland, Ohio will discuss the future of Internet worm viruses and how the current crop (Ramen, Melissa, ILoveYou) are just the tip of the iceberg. Nazario applies the morphing approaches of biological systems with computing, and shows how new threats and adaptive defense strategies emerge. -- Dr. Ian Goldberg from Zero Knowledge Systems (known for cracking the first RSA Secret Key Challenge in three and a half hours, breaking Netscape's implementation of SSL encryption, and breaking the cryptography in the GSM cellular phone standard) will be discussing the "highly flawed" Wired Equivalent Privacy in the 802.11 wireless network standard. -- Brian Martin, founder and staff member of Attrition.org will cover the lessons learned and insight gained from monitoring the world of Web site defacements including reactions from the defacers themselves, system administrators, law enforcement and journalists as well as identification and analysis of several trends and statistics. Cryptography expert Bruce Schneier and Technology Futurist Richard Thieme will be giving this year's lunchtime presentations. Black Hat Inc. will also conduct computer security training for several different topics the two days prior to the briefings - 9 through 10 July. Subjects include: -- NT Network Intrusion Workshop -- Complete Windows 2000 Security -- Advanced Scanning with ICMP -- Reverse Engineering and Security Auditing with IDA The instructors for the training segment of this year's Black Hat are some of the top experts in their field and are fully active in the computer security community. You won't find most of these speakers anywhere else and these handpicked security gurus will train participants in understanding the real threats to any network and how to keep them from being exploited. To register for BlackHat Briefings, visit the Web site at http://www.blackhat.com. Direct any conference-related questions to info at blackhat.com. For press registration, contact B.K. DeLong at +1.617.877.3271 or via email at press at blackhat.com. About Black Hat Inc. Black Hat Inc. was originally founded in 1997 by Jeff Moss to fill the need for computer security professionals to better understand the security risks and potential threats to their information infrastructures and computer systems. Black Hat accomplishes this by assembling a group of vendor-neutral security professionals and having them speak candidly about the problems businesses face and their solutions to those problems. Black Hat Inc. produces 5 briefing & training events a year on 3 different continents. Speakers and attendees travel from all over the world to meet and share in the latest advances in computer security. For more information, visit their Web site at http://www.blackhat.com ### -- B.K. DeLong Press Coordinator Black Hat Briefings +1.617.877.3271 bkdelong at blackhat.com http://www.blackhat.com http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 4 16:25:22 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:25:22 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:09 PM -0700 7/4/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Sampo Syreeni > >> But just as Tim argues, the latter >> always involves cost-effectiveness >> too...There should always be a >> sufficient, predictable cost >> associated with putting people >> away to guard against >> criminalization for convenience, >> prudence and political gain only. > >I'm sure that "cost-effectiveness" has a role to play here. I just don't >agree that the cost savings of parole are all that big a factor. The US has >more prisoners per capital than just about anyone (I think the US is >surpassed by Russia and maybe South Africa). So we've already made the >decision that we can afford to lock up a lot of people. > >Also, the assumption that locking up more people comes at some sort of >linear increase in costs. One of the simplest answers is to just overcrowd >the facilities "we" already have. > >No, I think Tim and Sampo have the cart before the horse. We have the >criminal laws we have because that feeds the government, not because we save >so much with parole. Eliminating parole by overcrowding or by building >still more prisons would increase, not decrease human suffering. > >Honestly, would you rather wear a ankle transponder or be Bruno's bitch? This is that chestnut of a logical fallacy called "false alternatives." (Or "false dilemma.") The choice is not just between an ankle transponder and being Bruno's bitch. Sampo and I are both arguing that the costs of making things illegal is no longer as visible as it once was, especially as when local jurisdictions had to make a choice between building a school or a jail. These costs have been hidden from the voters and taxpayers in the usual ways: -- by bundling costs and shifting them great distances -- by hiding the costs in bond issues which fool people into thinking that new prison won't cost anything -- by not actually _needing_ the additional prison space. I'm not saying there is a simple cause-and-effect relationship between parole and criminalization, that parole caused more criminalization of activities. Things are more complicated and nuanced than that. But what I _am_ saying is that both trends have gone hand-in-hand, and the results are made _worse_ by having so many people on parole. And if things go on (another logical fallacy, I realize), we are heading towards a situation where a large chunk of the U.S. (and world, as other nations are copying our schemes) population is disenfranchised, can't own firearms, has no expectation of being secure in papers and possessions, and which may even be restricted in other ways in the future. The fact that your friend got out on parole after 7 years is nice, for her. (Jeez, even murderers rarely face more than a few years, and I know of an arsonist who is getting no prison time at all, just a very long period of "parole.") --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 14:26:13 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:26:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Re: DCchat program (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:29:37 -0800 (PDT) From: davidthompson at hushmail.com To: coderpunks at toad.com Subject: Re: DCchat program The DCchat program I wrote about a couple of weeks ago is ready for test now. It is available at http://www.geocities.com/cryptosw. It is written in Python and requires threads and Tkinter support built in. I ended up leaving out the "nym" feature, all messages are anonymous. Mostly at this point I want to know if it works with moderate numbers of users (3-20). Can the DC net scale? When does it fall apart? Any questions please feel free to ask. Perhaps people could agree on a time to try a chat? If you want to try chatting, first run the program once ahead of time and it will create your host key in a file hostkey.pub. You can post that and users can check to see if it is present in the list. Eventually I hope to automate this checking to some degree, a la ssh. DT Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 14:32:01 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:32:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Textual "Child Porn" Conviction in Ohio In-Reply-To: <200107042055.f64Kt6D08434@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > Here's some more screwing around with the First Amendment from our friends > in the great state of Ohio. > child pornography and got a 10 year prison sentence. His only crime was > writing words in a personal journal, which he never showed to anyone, and > which was discovered during a routine search of his home. Had he gone to 'routine search'? Remind me never to go to Ohio. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 4 16:49:49 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:49:49 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > At 4:09 PM -0700 7/4/01, Sandy > Sandfort wrote: > >... > >Honestly, would you rather wear > >a ankle transponder or be Bruno's > > bitch? > > This is that chestnut of a logical > fallacy called "false alternatives." > (Or "false dilemma.") The choice is > not just between an ankle transponder > and being Bruno's bitch. Yes that IS the choice. This is not a logical fallacy. This is the real choice real people have to make every day. "Changing the system" is not an individual option. Right now, in the real world, prisoners have to decide whether they are going to be "hard cases" and staying in the joint or of "going along" and getting out sooner, albeit on parole. Eliminating parole should be the LAST thing done to reform the system. Anything else merely compounds the evil. I'll go a bit further. To the extent a libertarian society had prisons, I think there would--and should--be a system of parole (i.e., "conditional release") to help released inmates re-enter society. S a n d y From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 4 17:01:21 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:01:21 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Yep, the US does lock a whole lot of > people up. But what about the constant > whining about "overflowing prisons", > then. Unfortunately, "whining" is just that. Not much is done about it. > Or the many instants where prisoners > are put on parole en masse to cut > costs and/or to free up prison real > estate? That's really a separate problem having to do with our insane mandatory sentencing laws (primarily for drug-related offenses). When they do release folks, they are usually the ones convicted of really vicious crimes. > There would be ways to control this > too. One way is to make it possible > for inmates to sue for damage due > to overcrowding and the violence it > causes. This would make for a > superlinear increase in cost, and > eventual balancing in the density > of inmates. Well that would be nice, but why not focus in on the real problem, too many laws? Forget suing, leave parole alone, just get rid of the myriad of laws. > From the standpoint of individual > freedom, one might argue that more > people are now hurting. Than what, Utopia? That isn't the choice now. It's between getting out or staying in a hell-hole prison. Nobody is hurt by parole. Get rid of the laws and the parole issue goes away by itself. > ...the cost of putting people away > should be high enough to become > prohibitive for anything but the > most serious of crimes. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. It's not, so why fantasize? Nobody is hurt by parole, itself. Eliminate the bad laws, they are the real problem. S a n d y From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Jul 4 17:25:08 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: from "Sandy Sandfort" at Jul 04, 2001 03:34:45 PM Message-ID: <200107050025.f650P8W08778@artifact.psychedelic.net> Sandy wrote: > Yes and no. I know I'd rather be on parole than in the slammer. (Of > course, given the choice I'd go for "none of the above.") I have an > acquaintance who just got out after being in for seven years. Even though > she is required to live in a half-way house, cannot go anywhere but work nor > may visit anyone without express permission of her parole officer, she's > very happy to at least be out in the world and not locked up. > The problem is not that parole exists--be thankful that it does. The > problem is the criminalization of every area of life. If everyone refused plea bargaining, and refused parole, the number of people who could be prosecuted and jailed would be a small fraction of those who are "in the system" today. Of course, no specific individual is going to volunteer to be Bubba's Bitch on principle, so the effect is that an unlimited number of people can be kept "in the system" at a cost asymptotically approaching zero as increasingly advanced monitoring technology gets mass produced. Since the only pretense a democracy can use for taking someones rights away is that they have been convicted of a crime, enough laws are made until everyone is guilty of something, and then they are selectively enforced. The first time someone annoys Big Brother, they are placed "in the system" and lose their right to be secure in their person and possessions, keep private journals, vote, work where they want, travel, own a firearm, and at no great cost to Big Brother either. "Parole" is the lubricant which makes this "democracy in name only" work effectively, and as Tim suggested, is a great force multiplier for oppressive governmental authority. Through plea bargaining, the sheep volunteer to be shorn, at no cost to Big Brother, and through parole, they voluntarily live with shorter chains and in smaller cages, for the privilege of a less painful hair removal process than sheep who protest. "Be thankful that parole exists" is not the way I would describe the above system. One should also bear in mind that in a system without parole, the government probably couldn't afford to make unimportant things illegal without bankrupting the taxpayers in the process, thus repairing your problem with the "criminalization of everyday life." It's not like Joe Sixpack is going to give up his Beernuts so we can give persons 10 year prison sentences for writing rude words in their diaries. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 15:33:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:33:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fw: [Ne-anarchists-d] Re: FBI is investigating an alleged "Black Bloc" threat sent toPolitech (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:01:11 -0400 From: Any Mouse Subject: Fw: [Ne-anarchists-d] Re: FBI is investigating an alleged "Black Bloc" threat sent toPolitech Chuck's response below... By the way the Black Bloc is a tactic of demonstration, not a "group". If I may use a very loose analogy it's like saying that cypherpunks are all about PGP encrypted emails. The work that Chuck and other anarchists are doing in the area goes beyond Black Bloc and, yes, it does include Black Bloc when appropriate. There are active discussions about the possible mis-use or abuse of Black Bloc tactics in several large scale and highly visible incidences (such as the anti-globalization protests) that are due in large to the explosive growth of visibility for the tactics without the necessary education and organization. An effective Black Bloc has an effective and clearly defined message/slogan, same w/ goal, and a visible restraint mechanism. It's a sledge hammer against a door not a molotov cocktail thrown anonymously into a crowd. But I'm just a fly on the wall making some observations and can't by any means consider myself a scholar on the topic... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck0" To: "Declan McCullagh" Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: [Ne-anarchists-d] Re: FBI is investigating an alleged "Black Bloc" threat sent toPolitech > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > The FBI is investigating an alleged threat against the Cato Institute, the > > world's leading free-market think tank, sent to Politech. > > > > Chuck0 sent a message to Politech that I forwarded -- as > > part of an ongoing discussion about privacy and globalization -- on Monday: > > http://www.politechbot.com/p-02214.html > > > > The message said: "Cato's little insult of the black bloc means that we'll > > be paying Cato HQ a visit this coming September. People who work in glass > > buildings shouldn't throw the first rhetorical stones." > > It's interesting that so-called "libertarians" would run to the FBI when they > can't take a joke. My response to Declan McCullagh concerning Aaron Lukas' > article, a journalist whose work I respect and read on a regular basis, was > meant for Declan's eyes only, not the entirety of the Politech list. > > My comment about the "black bloc means that we'll be paying Cato HQ a visit this > coming September" didn't say anything about what the black bloc would do once it > reached Cato. It's not like I can tell the black bloc what to do. I they chose > to do this, perhaps they would consense to smoking some weed with the > Libertarians, since we do see eye to eye on drug policy. Of course, there are > many things we don't see eye to eye on, including free markets, free trade, and > running to the FBI when we can't take a joke. > > << Chuck0 >> > > Infoshop.org -> http://www.infoshop.org/ > Alternative Press Review -> http://www.altpr.org/ > Practical Anarchy Online -> http://www.practicalanarchy.org/ > Homepage -> http://flag.blackened.net/chuck0/home/ > > INTERNATIONALISM IN PRACTICE > > An American soldier in a hospital explained how he was wounded: He said, "I was > told that the way to tell a hostile Vietnamese from a friendly Vietnamese was to > shout 'To hell with Ho Chi Minh!' If he shoots, he's unfriendly. So I saw this > dude and yelled 'To hell with Ho Chi Minh!' and he yelled back, 'To hell with > President Johnson!' We were shaking hands when a truck hit us." > > (from 1,001 Ways to Beat the Draft, by Tuli Kupferburg). > _______________________________________________ > Ne-anarchists-d mailing list > Ne-anarchists-d at lists.2wrongs.net > To (un)subscribe: http://www.2wrongs.net/mailman/listinfo/ne-anarchists-d > Free hosting by http://www.2wrongs.net From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 15:36:24 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:36:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fw: the masks we wear... [Fw: Autonomia and the Origin of the Black Bloc] (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:06:20 -0400 From: Any Mouse Subject: Fw: the masks we wear... [Fw: Autonomia and the Origin of the Black Bloc] More info on Black Bloc and some personal musings from sometime ago... ----- Original Message ----- From: Any Mouse Subject: the masks we wear... [Fw: Autonomia and the Origin of the Black Bloc] > Interesting read below. The problem w/ Black Bloc for those that don't advocate > violence or destruction (like myself) is that the larger the Black Bloc the more > likely you'll have rogue elements wanting to "fuck shit up". The mask is a > powerfull tool for solidarity and self defense- as can be seen in the Chiapas > example.... > > And more generally on masks... > > Milan Kundera wrote in _Immortality_ of a plane of existence after death where > the sentient forms had no faces. They visited the protagonist in life and > explained to her that faces are a primitive creation of man that are mearly > superficial and cosmetic in design and serve simply communicate via a visual > broadcast emotions in a raw and misinterpretable way to the eyes of others- > something the transient forms had outgrown after time and after having gained > the ability to share emotions through other, less mistakeable means. > > All absurd. > > There was another text who's author I can't remember who wrote of a species that > wore masks which bore memories of the individuals who previously work the masks. > The memories were encased in the mask by facial excretions that were a byproduct > of the centuries of ritualization of mask wearing. Most masks were handed down > generation to generation. The focus of the story was of one mask that was > passed down from a suspected serial rapist/murderer to his daughter after his > death. He died a natural death several years after being found innocent of the > alleged crimes by a jury of peers. His daughter put on the mask once and went > completely mad. > > The few. The proud. The Marines... > > I'll need to dig up some texts on Joseph Campbell and masks for the subway > rides... Just some passing thoughts... > ----- Original Message ----- > To: Any Mouse > Subject: FWD: Autonomia and the Origin of the Black Bloc > > > > Thought this was rather informative... > > > > > > >To: loveandrage , > > > Autopsy > > >Subject: AUT: aut and black blocking > > > > > >Autonomia and the Origin of the Black Bloc > > > > > >> Article by: Daniel Dylan Young > > >> Thursday 08 Feb 2001 > > >> > > >> Email: > > >> > > >> Summary:Whether the Black Bloc continues as a tactic or is abandoned, it > > >certainly has served its purpose. In certain places and times the Black Bloc > > >effectively empowered people to take action in collective solidarity against > > >the violence of state and capitalism. It is important that we neither cling > > >to it nostalgically as an outdated ritual or tradition, nor reject it > > >wholesale because it sometimes seems inappropriate. Rather we should > > >continue working pragmatically to fulfill our individual needs and desires > > >through various tactics and objectives, as they are appropriate at the > > >specific moment. Masking up in Black Bloc has its time and place, as do > > >other tactics which conflict with it. > > >> > > >> Article: > > >> \"Those in authority fear the mask for their power partly resides in > > >identifying, stamping and cataloguing: in knowing who you are...our masks > > >are not to conceal our identity but to reveal it...Today we shall give this > > >resistance a face; for by putting on our masks we reveal our unity; and by > > >raising our voices in the street together, we speak our anger at the > > >facelessness of power...\" > > >> > > >> --from a message printed on the inside of 9000 masks distributed at the > > >June 18th, 1999 Carnival Against Capital which destroyed the financial > > >district of central London > > >> > > >> At the WTO protests in Seattle last year, somewhere from 100 to 300 > > >anarchists and others dressed up in black and systematically trashed the > > >storefronts of odious multinational corporations. Since then the tactic of > > >the \"Black Bloc\" has been getting quite a bit of attention from different > > >people concerned with social change. All sorts of upper middle class, > > >trust-fund progressives and liberals have prattled on moralistically to > > >great length about how there is no room for such behavior in their movement. > > >At the same time, the Black Bloc in Seattle inspired a renewed interest in > > >militant protest tactics which do not placate authority or bow to its power. > > >The N30 Black Bloc, along with many other aspects of the events in Seattle, > > >has also inspired radical anarchists to stop hiding out inside liberal > > >activist groups with reformist agendas, and start being more vocal in their > > >demands for revolution and total social change. Besides the rapid > > >proliferation of anarchist publicatio! > > >> ns and organizations, clear evidence of this resurgence of anarchism in > > >the United States can be seen in the large Black Blocs which were present on > > >April 16th in Washington D.C., at the Democratic and Republican National > > >Conventions this summer, and at many other marches, protests and actions > > >from sea to shining sea. For good or ill, it seems that in the last year > > >the Black Bloc has become an American tradition, and it all started with > > >those brave kids back in Seattle. > > >> > > >> Or did it? In fact, November 30th was far from the first time that a large > > >group of radicals dressed up in black with black masks in order to engage in > > >militant protest in anonymity and solidarity. The Black Bloc as an agreed > > >upon protest tactic may be as much as 20 years old. Its origins in fact lie > > >with the European Autonomen or autonomists, a radical social movement that > > >didn\'t even necessarily proclaim itself anarchist, though many of its > > >tactics and ideas have become widely appreciated and adopted by > > >self-proclaimed anarchists. > > >> > > >> About Autonomy > > >> > > >> Autonomia, Autonomen, or autonomists have been the names used for various > > >popular social change and countercultural movements in Italy, Germany, > > >Denmark, Holland and other parts of Europe in the last 3 decades. All these > > >different movements have sought to radically oppose authority, domination > > >and violence anywhere that they exist in contemporary life (which is pretty > > >much everywhere). Autonomy in this case does not mean some kind of regional > > >superiority complex or isolationism, as with statist nationalism, nor does > > >it mean individual autonomy at the expense of the majority, as is the the > > >basis of capitalism. What autonomists value and desire is the freedom for > > >individuals to choose others with whom they share an affinity, and band > > >together with them to survive and fulfill all of their needs and desires > > >collectively, without interference from greedy, violent individuals or huge > > >inhuman bureaucracies. > > >> > > >> The first so-called autonomists were those individuals involved in the > > >Italian Autonomia movement that got its start during the Hot Autumn of 1969, > > >a time of intense social unrest. Throughout the 1970s in Italy a widespread > > >movement for total social change was initiated by autonomous groups of > > >factory workers, women and students. Capitalists, labor unions and the > > >statist Communist Party bureaucracy had nothing to do with this movement, > > >and in fact worked hard to repress and stop it. Yet the power structure was > > >often at a loss with how to deal with the near complete refusal of large > > >areas of the population to obey the rules and orders of authority. > > >> > > >> Despite the rapid proliferation of direct action, strikes, rent strikes, > > >mass squats, streetfighting, university occupations and other popularly > > >supported radical actions during the 1970s, the Italian movement eventually > > >subsided. This was partly due to violent attacks, imprisonment and murders > > >of radicals by the police and the Communist party-controlled central > > >government. At the same time the response to this escalation of state > > >violence was often an escalation of terrorism by elite radical urban > > >guerilla groups . This self-defensive terrorism often served to turn people > > >away from a large scale, public social change movement. Some chose to become > > >more militant and secretive, while others abandoned politics all together > > >for a seemingly more peaceful life of obedience to authority. > > >> > > >> Building Revolutionary Dual Power -- The Culture of the Autonomen > > >> > > >> Though the revolutionary potential of the Italian Autonomia in the 1970s > > >died down, their vibrance, confidence and empowerment was an inspiration to > > >young people in West Germany in the 1980s. Inspired also by the Amsterdam > > >squatters\' movements and youth organization in Switzerland, young Germans > > >in Berlin, Hamburg and other major cities began building their own > > >autonomous culture and social groups based upon radical resistance and > > >alternative ways of life. > > >> > > >> The direction and composition of radical organization in West Germany in > > >the 1980s was partly determined by the reigning economic recession and the > > >forms it took. Because of the well established connections between > > >industrial unions and the German government, the effects of this recession > > >were felt not so much by blue collar workers, but by young people who found > > >it increasingly impossible to secure jobs and housing and thereby move out > > >of their parents\' home and become socially and financially independent. > > >Therefore points for autonomous youth mobilization included the stifling > > >conformity of rural German society and the nuclear family, serious housing > > >shortages, high unemployment--as well as the continued illegal status of > > >abortion and government plans for a massive expansion of nuclear power. > > >> > > >> As a result of economic recession and flight to the suburbs, at the end of > > >the 1970s huge tracts of buildings in different German inner cities, > > >especially West Berlin, lay abandoned by developers or government agencies. > > >Squatting these buildings was a viable option for impoverished young people > > >looking for independence from the nuclear family home. Vibrant squatters\' > > >communities grew up in the Kreuzberg neighborhood of Berlin, the > > >Haffenstrasse squats of Hamburg and in other concentration points. The > > >cornerstone of these communities was communal living, and the creation of > > >radical social centers: infoshops, bookstores, coffeehouses, meeting halls, > > >bars, concert halls, art galleries, and other multi-use spaces where > > >grassroots political, artistic and social culture were developed as an > > >alternative to nuclear family life, TV dreams and mass-produced pop culture. > > >> > > >> >From these safe social spaces grew major grassroots initiatives to fight > > >nuclear power; to break down patriarchy and gender roles; to show solidarity > > >with oppressed people throughout the world by attacking the European-based > > >multinational corporations or financial institutions like the World Bank; > > >and after German reunification, to fight the rising tide of conservative > > >neo-Nazism. > > >> > > >> Similar initiatives for alternative living as resistance were percolating > > >in the 1980s (and in some places much earlier) in Holland, Denmark and > > >elsewhere throughout northern Europe. Eventually all of these northern > > >Europeans living in decentralized social groups dedicated to creating a > > >non-coercive, non-hierarchical society became collectively labeled as > > >\"Autonomen.\" Over time the autonomists\' ideas and tactics also migrated > > >throughout the reunited post-Iron Curtain Europe. I personally have visited > > >radical autonomous social centers in England, Spain, Italy, Croatia, > > >Slovenia, and the Czech Republic. > > >> > > >> Hardline Oppression, Militant Resistance, And the Origins of the Black > > >Bloc > > >> > > >> >From the beginning the West German state did not take kindly to young > > >Autonomen, whether they were occupying nuclear power plant building sites or > > >unused apartment buildings. In the winter of 1980 the Berlin city government > > >decided to take a hardline against the thousands of young people living in > > >squats throughout the city: they decided to criminalize, attack and evict > > >them into the cold winter streets. This was a much more shocking and unusual > > >action in Germany than it would be in the U.S., and created much popular > > >disgust and condemnation of the police and government. > > >> > > >> >From December 1980 on there was an escalating cycle of mass arrests, > > >street fighting, and new squatting in Berlin and throughout Germany. The > > >Autonomen were not to be cowed, and each eviction was responded to with > > >several new building occupations. When squatters in the south German city of > > >Freiburg were mass arrested, rallies and demonstrations supporting them and > > >condemning the police state\'s eviction policy took place in every major > > >city in Germany. In Berlin on that day, later dubbed \"Black Friday,\" > > >upwards of 15,000 to 20,000 people took to the streets and destroyed an > > >upper class shopping area.(1) > > >> > > >> This was the seething cauldron of oppression and resistance from which the > > >Black Bloc was birthed. In late 1981 the German government began legalizing > > >certain squats in an attempt to divide the counterculture and marginalize > > >more radical segments. But these tactics were slow to pacify the popular > > >radical movement--especially since the period of 1980-81 had seen not only a > > >brutal treatment of squatters but also the largest police mobilization in > > >Germany since the reign of the third Reich in order to attack non-violent, > > >sitting protesters at the \"Free Republic of Wendland,\" an encampment of > > >5000 activists blocking the construction of the Gorleben nuclear waste > > >dump.(2) Even formerly ardent pacifists had been radicalized by the > > >experience of sustained, violent police oppression against diverse squats > > >and activist occupations. > > >> > > >> In response to violent state oppression radical activists developed the > > >tactic of the Black Bloc: they went to protests and marches wearing black > > >motorcycle helmets and ski masks and dressing in uniform black clothing (or, > > >for the most prepared, wearing padding and steel-toed boots and bringing > > >their own shields and truncheons). In Black Bloc, autonomen and other > > >radicals could more effectively fend off police attacks, without being > > >singled out as individuals for arrest and harassment later on. And, as > > >everyone quickly figured out, having a massive group of people all dressed > > >the same with their faces covered not only helps in defending against the > > >police, but also makes it easier for saboteurs to take the offensive against > > >storefronts, banks and any other material symbols and power centers of > > >capitalism and the state. Masking up as a Black Bloc encouraged popular > > >participation in public property destruction and violence against the state > > >and capitalism. In this way the Blac! > > >> k Bloc is a form of militance that mitigates the problematic dichotomy > > >between popularly executed non-violent civil disobedience and elite, > > >secretive guerilla terrorism and sabotage. > > >> > > >> Autonomen Black Bloc Accomplishments > > >> > > >> Black Blocs, Autonomen militance, and popular resistance to the > > >police-state and the New World Order spread among European youth in the > > >1980s. > > >> > > >> Though Dutch radicals did not begin calling themselves \"Autonomen\" until > > >around 1986, earlier Dutch counterculture activists shared tactics, > > >organizing structures and militancy with self-proclaimed autonomists. > > >Holland\'s squatting movement really got started around 1968, and by 1981 > > >more then 10,000 houses and apartments were squatted in Amsterdam, and there > > >were around 15,000 squats in the rest of Holland. Squatted restaurants, > > >bars, cafes, and information centers were commonplace, and the organized > > >squatters (usually referred to as \"kraakers\") had their own council to > > >plan the movement\'s direction and their own newsradio station.(3) > > >> > > >> Although some Dutch autonomists rejected wearing ski masks while in Black > > >Bloc(4), the movement was no less militant. One book about the Dutch > > >squatters movement reports that \"Ever since the beginning there had been a > > >\'black helmet brigade\' which felt it had joined battle with municipal > > >social democracy.\"(5) > > >> > > >> Battles at the evictions of Amsterdam squats often featured the > > >construction of huge barricades and walled-in squatters tossing furniture > > >and other projectiles of all shapes and sizes out the window at riot police > > >below. In the early years there were certain limits to the violence which > > >Dutch squatters would use to retaliate against police attacks. However in > > >1985 when a squatter named Hans Kok died in police custody after being > > >arrested during a particularly brutal raid and eviction, the ante was upped. > > > > > >Following the news of his death a night of fiery destruction reigned in > > >Amsterdam, with even police cars set on fire in front of many different > > >precincts. Said one squatter: \"Everyone had the idea, now we\'ll use the > > >ultimate means, just before guns anyway: mollies...Everyone went around with > > >mollies in their pockets, everyone had full gasoline cans...it was the new > > >action method.\"(6) Though Hans Kok\'s death and the fiery retribution that > > >followed had a negative effect on! > > >> the popular squatters\' movement, the new militancy of tactics proved > > >useful in some activist circles. In 1985 the Dutch Anti-Racist Action Group > > >(RARA) mounted a successful campaign to force the Dutch supermarket chain > > >MARKO to divest from South Africa: the campaign was accomplished through a > > >series of extremely expensive and damaging firebombings of MARKO\'s stores > > >and offices.(7) > > >> > > >> In Germany in 1986 mounting police attacks and attempted evictions against > > >a complex of squatted houses in Hamburg called the Haffenstrasse were met > > >with the counteroffensive of a 10,000 person march surrounding at least 1500 > > >people in a Black Bloc, carrying a huge banner that read, \"Build > > >Revolutionary Dual Power!\" At the march\'s end, the Black Bloc was able to > > >successfully engage in street fighting that put the police on the retreat. > > >On the following day fires were set in 13 department stores in Hamburg, > > >causing nearly $10 million in damage.(8) > > >> > > >> That same year, the disaster at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant brought > > >new militance to demonstrations against nuclear power plants under > > >construction in Germany. Once account of these anti-nuclear demonstrations > > >reported, \"In scenes resembling \'civil war,\' helmeted, leather-clad > > >troops of the anarchist Autonomen armed with slingshots, Molotov cocktails > > >and flare guns clashed brutally with the police, who employed water cannons, > > >helicopters and CS gas (officially banned for use against civilians.\"(9) > > >> > > >> In June of 1987 when Ronald Reagan came to Berlin, around 50,000 people > > >demonstrated in the streets against this Cold War-mongering old man, > > >including a 3000 person Black Bloc.(10) A couple of months later police > > >antagonism against the Haffenstrasse intensified again. In November 1987 > > >residents and thousands of other Autonomen fortified the complex, built > > >barricades in the streets and fought off police for nearly 24 hours. In the > > >end the city chose to legalize the squatters\' residence.(11) > > >> > > >> Over ten years before Seattle and the American WTO protests, the Autonomen > > >mobilized a similar event with a greater number of resisters. In September > > >of 1988, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund met in Berlin. > > >Autonomen used this meeting as a focal point for worldwide resistance to > > >global corporate capitalism and government\'s destruction of grassroots > > >autonomy and community. Thousands of activists from throughout Europe and > > >the U.S. were mobilized, and 80,000 protesters met the bankers (at least > > >30,000 more than in Seattle).(12) The totally outnumbered police and private > > >security at the event attempted to maintain order by banning all > > >demonstrations and brutally attacking any public assembly, but riots still > > >ravaged fashionable upper class shopping areas (as was tradition). > > >> > > >> Pre-Seattle Black Blocs In the U.S.A. > > >> > > >> In November of 1999 the Black Bloc tactic seemed new to many Americans > > >partly because the actions and ideas of the autonomist movement in Europe > > >were mostly blacked out of the American media and have been barely written > > >about at all in English. However, ignorance of the Black Bloc also stems > > >from the fact that most Americans get news of domestic events from a > > >corporate-controlled media that ignores any happenings that don\'t fit their > > >view and purposes, and which represents every event that takes place as > > >singular spectacle disconnected from past and future, to be forgotten in a > > >blur even when it is only a few months old. > > >> > > >> Radicals in the U.S. have never been totally ignorant of the actions and > > >ideas of European autonomists, and the development of the punk rock > > >subculture in the U.S. throughout the 1980s in many ways mirrored that of > > >the autonomists. By the beginning of the 1990\'s anarchists and other > > >radicals in the U.S. were masking up at marches and protests to build > > >solidarity and create anonymity for militants. > > >> > > >> When the Gulf War was going one protest in the streets of Washington D.C. > > >included a Black Bloc that smashed in the windows of the World Bank > > >building. That same year on Columbus Day in San Francisco a Black Bloc > > >showed up to help show militant resistance to the continuing genocide of > > >North American domination by Europeans.(13) Personally, the largest Black > > >Bloc that I\'ve ever seen was at the Millions March For Mumia in > > >Philadelphia in April of 1999. I\'d say there were at least 500 dressed in > > >Black, masked up, and carrying banners such as \"Vegans For Mumia.\" Though > > >there was no street fighting and no particularly noticeable property > > >destruction, some kids did manage to get into a parking garage along the > > >march route, climb to the roof and wave the black flag. > > >> > > >> The Global Future of the Black Mask > > >> > > >> The symbol of the black-masked autonomist militant has spread to the third > > >world as well. As the North American Free Trade Agreement\'s destructive > > >neo-liberalalizing economic policies took effect on January 1st, 1994, a > > >guerilla uprising took place in Chiapas, a state in southern Mexico. The > > >uprising sought to create space for the development of autonomous social > > >organization among downtrodden Mayan indigenous peoples. The armed wing of > > >this struggle for community autonomy and direct democracy without coercion > > >or hierarchy has been and continues to be the Zapatistas, men and women who > > >wear black balaclavas (similar to ski masks) whenever they appear in public. > > >Many autonomists and anarchists have visited and tried to help them in their > > >struggles with knowledge, money, materials and by building inernational > > >awareness and solidarity of the situation in Chiapas. > > >> > > >> Back in Germany, the Autonomen are seeing dark days. It is said that in > > >the past squatters held at least 165 large, five-story apartment buildings > > >in eastern Berlin, but by late 1997 only 3 remained.(14) Legalizing some > > >squats while brutally evicting others has been an effective policy for the > > >police state. Many people living in legalized squats are unwilling to rock > > >the boat by encouraging or expressing solidarity with militant tactics > > >practiced by other squatters, and this marginalization makes it easier for > > >the squatters to lose out in street-fighting against an increasingly > > >militarized police force. > > >> > > >> The resurgence of neo-Nazism in what once was East Germany and other areas > > >of the country has meant no end of troubles for German Autonomen. They face > > >violence and death from neo-Nazi attacks, especially in most of eastern > > >Germany which neo-Nazi gangs police as a \"no-punk, no-foreigner zone.\" > > >Massive amounts of Autonomen time and effort goes into organizing to oppose > > >the spread of neo-Nazism, but this means neglecting the tasks of developing > > >new viable alternatives to authoritarian society, one of the main original > > >goals of autonomists. \"Antifa\" or anti-fascist organizing brings the > > >Autonomen into more and more violent confrontations with the German police, > > >who basically support neo-Nazi groups and their nationalist, racist > > >ideologies--when individual police officers aren\'t directly involved with > > >fascist groups. > > >> > > >> Rumour has it that many militants in areas of northern Europe where the > > >Black Bloc was a common demonstration tactic have been increasingly given it > > >up, as it has ceased to serve its purpose. The forces of state repression > > >have caught on, and use ever greater technological, legal and physical force > > >to observe, isolate, pursue and target those involved in Black Blocs. A > > >similar process is taking place in the U.S., with a resurgence of > > >COINTELPRO-style tactics aimed at radicals who oppose the global > > >capitalist-statist American empire. > > >> > > >> Whether the Black Bloc continues as a tactic or is abandoned, it certainly > > >has served its purpose. In certain places and times the Black Bloc > > >effectively empowered people to take action in collective solidarity against > > >the violence of state and capitalism. It is important that we neither cling > > >to it nostalgically as an outdated ritual or tradition, nor reject it > > >wholesale because it sometimes seems inappropriate. Rather we should > > >continue working pragmatically to fulfill our individual needs and desires > > >through various tactics and objectives, as they are appropriate at the > > >specific moment. Masking up in Black Bloc has its time and place, as do > > >other tactics which conflict with it. > > >> > > >> 1. Katsiaficas, George. The Subversion of Politics: European Autonomous > > >Social Movements And The Decolonization of Everyday Life. New Jersey: > > >Humanities Press International, Inc., 1997, p. 91. > > >> > > >> 2. Katsiaficas, p. 82 > > >> > > >> 3. Katsiaficas, p. 116 > > >> > > >> 4. Katsiaficas, p. 116. > > >> > > >> 5. ADILKNO. Cracking The Movement: Squatting Beyond the Media. Trans. > > >Laura Martz. New York: Autonomedia, 1990. p. 25. > > >> > > >> 6. ADILKNO, 123 > > >> > > >> 7. Katsiaficas, 119. > > >> > > >> 8. Katsiaficas, 128. > > >> > > >> 9. Katsiaficas, 211. > > >> > > >> 10. Katsiaficas, 131. > > >> > > >> 11. Katsiaficas, 130. > > >> > > >> 12. Katsiaficas, 131. > > >> > > >> 13. Mid-Atlantic Infoshop. \"Black Bloc For Dummies.\" > > > > > >> > > >> 14. Thompson, A. Clay. \"Street Battles--German Squatters Squeezed to Near > > >Extinction.\" > > > > > > From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 08:38:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:38:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [OT,long] "Zeroing" a machine / flashing from OS (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Arbaugh To: Peter Lister Cc: linuxbios at lanl.gov Subject: Re: [OT,long] "Zeroing" a machine / flashing from OS I essentially solved this problem with a prototype built using the 430HX chipset a few years ago. The project, AEGIS, used the boot block portion of the flash to hold intitialization and recovery code. Everything else had a digital signature paired with it. Prior to passing exec control to the next step- the signature is checked. If it's valid, then we pass control. If it's not, then we try to recover a valid version. Essentially, I built a prototype of the TCPA spec (www.trustedpc.org) before the TCPA was even a thought. That's history. Today, we've been funded by DARPA to add this same functionality to LinuxBIOS (or at least use the init routines from LinuxBIOS). We also will add crypto hardware support. We're just getting started, but we hope to have some results late summer early fall. We're also hoping to team up with a major manufacturer so that we can have the capability on their servers and laptops. Our biggest problem is that we don't want users to have to change their flash chip. That means that we can't use Linux as the loader. Instead, we need to use something along the lines of GRUB. We're looking at a number of alternatives now, and we'll let everyone know what we find. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Arbaugh www.cs.umd.edu/~waa University of Maryland waa at cs.umd.edu College Park 301.405.2774 ------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Peter Lister wrote: > James Finnie said... > > > Many boards do infact have a jumper on the board, which removes the > > ability to flash the BIOS without having physical access to reset > > the jumper - these mechanisms are completely secure, as they disable > > one of the flash chip write pins. And lets face it, if people have > > physical access to the machine, and want to do you some damage, > > there is little you can do about it. > > I'm thinking of cases where a hostile party can run any *software*, > including an arbitrary bootloader or OS, but can't get access to the > hardware to set a jumper or hit a switch (unless it's a software > controlled switch, of course - which includes the ATX "power switch"; > more of a polite hint to shut down). You tell me that the jumpers *do* > provide physical security. Fine - though it occurs to me that the > manufacturer's "secret" flash code might just look at the state > indicated by said jumper and refuse to flash, with no physical control. > Few people would know the difference. > > Yes, if someone has physical access, all bets are off - the question is > "How close can I get to physical access just via software?" and the > answer would appear to be "If I can flash system rom with an evil BIOS, > pretty close". > > > If a hacker has gained sufficient access to your mission critical > > datacenter systems through a trojan, in order to be able to run some > > arbitrary flashing code, I would say that was the least of your > > worries.... they already have access to whatever they could want, > > why would they bother implanting a trojan BIOS? > > Because it survives the scrubbing of magnetic media - even the complete > disassembly of the machine. Done well, it would be undetectable by any > current virus checker. You have to assume, for instance, that it could > pervert the disk controllers. I'm probably not interested in user A, > whose lax security gave me a root exploit (as you say, he's screwed > anyway) - I'll bide my time and wait until A has gone bankrupt and all > the computer systems are auctioned off to user B - whose system is > otherwise impregnable. > > I appreciate that commodity hardware is not designed for this sort of > security, since it is considered desirable to update in the field with > just a floppy. Most people consider a system board with BIOS as just a > component. Machines are being treated more as anonymous cluster members > than standalone systems with specific identities, so that it seems > likely that they will be moved between jobs quite dynamically. > > Given the stories of trivial "write protection", manufacturers > assurances of security seem generally worthless. :) Probably the best > defense would be a hardware "factory settings" switch which zaps all > nonvolatile storage back to a burned-in state, rather than relying on > "write protection". The machine could press its own button, since that > would be a guaranteed safe option, as even hostile software could do no > more than reinstate the trusted code. > > Don't be surprised when the first LinuxBIOS derived rom virus toolkit > gets into the hands of the script kiddies and the FBI arrests Ron. Of > course, this may be the best way to get the manufacturers to solve the > problem (a virus, not arresting Ron). > > -- > Peter Lister, Sychron Inc. - 1-866-SYCHRON > Intelligent Infrastructure - www.sychron.com From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 4 08:38:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:38:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [OT,long] "Zeroing" a machine / flashing from OS (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Arbaugh To: Peter Lister Cc: linuxbios at lanl.gov Subject: Re: [OT,long] "Zeroing" a machine / flashing from OS I essentially solved this problem with a prototype built using the 430HX chipset a few years ago. The project, AEGIS, used the boot block portion of the flash to hold intitialization and recovery code. Everything else had a digital signature paired with it. Prior to passing exec control to the next step- the signature is checked. If it's valid, then we pass control. If it's not, then we try to recover a valid version. Essentially, I built a prototype of the TCPA spec (www.trustedpc.org) before the TCPA was even a thought. That's history. Today, we've been funded by DARPA to add this same functionality to LinuxBIOS (or at least use the init routines from LinuxBIOS). We also will add crypto hardware support. We're just getting started, but we hope to have some results late summer early fall. We're also hoping to team up with a major manufacturer so that we can have the capability on their servers and laptops. Our biggest problem is that we don't want users to have to change their flash chip. That means that we can't use Linux as the loader. Instead, we need to use something along the lines of GRUB. We're looking at a number of alternatives now, and we'll let everyone know what we find. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Arbaugh www.cs.umd.edu/~waa University of Maryland waa at cs.umd.edu College Park 301.405.2774 ------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Peter Lister wrote: > James Finnie said... > > > Many boards do infact have a jumper on the board, which removes the > > ability to flash the BIOS without having physical access to reset > > the jumper - these mechanisms are completely secure, as they disable > > one of the flash chip write pins. And lets face it, if people have > > physical access to the machine, and want to do you some damage, > > there is little you can do about it. > > I'm thinking of cases where a hostile party can run any *software*, > including an arbitrary bootloader or OS, but can't get access to the > hardware to set a jumper or hit a switch (unless it's a software > controlled switch, of course - which includes the ATX "power switch"; > more of a polite hint to shut down). You tell me that the jumpers *do* > provide physical security. Fine - though it occurs to me that the > manufacturer's "secret" flash code might just look at the state > indicated by said jumper and refuse to flash, with no physical control. > Few people would know the difference. > > Yes, if someone has physical access, all bets are off - the question is > "How close can I get to physical access just via software?" and the > answer would appear to be "If I can flash system rom with an evil BIOS, > pretty close". > > > If a hacker has gained sufficient access to your mission critical > > datacenter systems through a trojan, in order to be able to run some > > arbitrary flashing code, I would say that was the least of your > > worries.... they already have access to whatever they could want, > > why would they bother implanting a trojan BIOS? > > Because it survives the scrubbing of magnetic media - even the complete > disassembly of the machine. Done well, it would be undetectable by any > current virus checker. You have to assume, for instance, that it could > pervert the disk controllers. I'm probably not interested in user A, > whose lax security gave me a root exploit (as you say, he's screwed > anyway) - I'll bide my time and wait until A has gone bankrupt and all > the computer systems are auctioned off to user B - whose system is > otherwise impregnable. > > I appreciate that commodity hardware is not designed for this sort of > security, since it is considered desirable to update in the field with > just a floppy. Most people consider a system board with BIOS as just a > component. Machines are being treated more as anonymous cluster members > than standalone systems with specific identities, so that it seems > likely that they will be moved between jobs quite dynamically. > > Given the stories of trivial "write protection", manufacturers > assurances of security seem generally worthless. :) Probably the best > defense would be a hardware "factory settings" switch which zaps all > nonvolatile storage back to a burned-in state, rather than relying on > "write protection". The machine could press its own button, since that > would be a guaranteed safe option, as even hostile software could do no > more than reinstate the trusted code. > > Don't be surprised when the first LinuxBIOS derived rom virus toolkit > gets into the hands of the script kiddies and the FBI arrests Ron. Of > course, this may be the best way to get the manufacturers to solve the > problem (a virus, not arresting Ron). > > -- > Peter Lister, Sychron Inc. - 1-866-SYCHRON > Intelligent Infrastructure - www.sychron.com > > > From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 4 17:55:05 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:55:05 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sampo Syreeni wrote: > The primary reason is that the > society simply isn't willing to > invest enough in prisons to carry > the load, contrary to what you > originally claimed. I don't think I claimed that. I said that the cost curve wasn't strictly linear. Before they release prisoners, the crowding must first become unbearable. So that means prisons are all running along the ragged edge of overcrowding. This makes parole a MUCH better deal for the prisoner, which was my point. > That's just the point -- you can't > [get rid of the laws]. The political > machine simply does not work that way, Well if so, it certainly doesn't allow for your solution. We have seen countries and jurisdictions relax their drug laws, for example. Remember, the US repealed an anti-drug constitutional amendment. If they can go through all the sturm und drang required to repeal an amendment, I don't see why mere statutes can't be undone. > >> From the standpoint of individual > >> freedom, one might argue that more > >> people are now hurting. > > > >Than what, Utopia? > > Than anywhere else in the world. Well, American prisoners are in American prisons. This discussion has been about the situation in the US vis-`-vis, parole. > Europeans' fairly humane attitudes > towards prison inmates largely serve > the purpose Tim and I are after with > the cost talk. The mechanism isn't > nearly as important as the underlying > necessity of imposing a real cost on > governments' harmful activities. That > is the only way that really works; > goodwill simply does not get things > done. So let me get this straight. You thing getting Americans (the majority of whom favor the death penalty) to buy "kinder, gentler" prisons is going to be easier than getting them to repeal bad laws? Yeah, that's going to happen. > >That isn't the choice now. It's > >between getting out or staying > >in a hell-hole prison. > > Not true. The same argument you use, > i.e. that habitual restrictions on > freedom can be traded for at least > /some/ freedom, can be used to argue > that you can always sacrifice your > freedom in order to stay out of jail > in the first place. You are correct, it can. Scary, huh? But my point is still true people WHO ARE ALREADY IN PRISON would prefer to be under restrictive parole than in some hell-hole prison. You said "not true," but do you really believe prison is preferable, even your "kindler, gentler" European prisons? > >Nobody is hurt by parole. > > I hope that was meant as a joke. Nope, dead serious when compared to the alternative. Did I need to make that explicit? So folks, I'm going off to celebrate my dwindling freedoms this Independence Day by going to a movie with a pretty girl. Please feel free to argue among yourselves in my absence. :-D S a n d y From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 16:04:15 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another problem with 'automated enforcement' In-Reply-To: <20010704125923.C27788@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > How do you call a radar gun or a 7-11 video camera or a fingerprint > matching computer or an EZ-Pass that says someone was speeding? > > Answer: You don't. You call the technician who runs the device, or the > person who developed the device, and try to establish that the facts > are true. Defense can challenge, but don't be surprised if they're > unsuccessful. There is a difference between 'evidence' and 'testimony' that is being lost when camera's can automatically mail tickets, or anytime a (non-sentient) machine can instigate legal proceedings or determine guilt with no human intervention or management. Not a good thing. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 16:32:25 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 18:32:25 -0500 Subject: US prison population to reach a record two million by year's end Message-ID: <3B43A789.B5DA56AC@ssz.com> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/mar2001/pris-m28.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 16:33:42 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:33:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > I'm sure that "cost-effectiveness" has a role to play here. I just don't > agree that the cost savings of parole are all that big a factor. The US has > more prisoners per capital than just about anyone (I think the US is > surpassed by Russia and maybe South Africa). So we've already made the > decision that we can afford to lock up a lot of people. Got any cites? Thought not (as usual you make the shit up as you go along). That's ok, I provided some.... We're 5% of the world population and we've got 25% of the prisoners. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 16:38:26 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:38:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010704093410.03a35008@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > They were not enforcing the state's speeding regulations. Yes, they are. > They were increasing the price of the rental to compensate for their > increased exposure to costs due to accidents. Alleged increased exposure. Nothing was proven. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 16:40:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 18:40:34 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Water Guns Message-ID: <3B43A972.C2AFA3D8@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/04/2112244.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 15:56:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:56:49 -0400 Subject: Forbidden Knowledge (Banned Research, Part II) In-Reply-To: ; from decoy@iki.fi on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:29:35AM +0300 References: Message-ID: <20010704185649.A1623@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:29:35AM +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Hasn't it been, already? If I'm not mistaken, people already go to prison > for writing viruses. Ditto for hacking tools, TPM circumvention software, > and soon probably spamming tools as well. Well put. See a bill in Congress to do just that: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01849.html -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 16:57:57 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:57:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Yes that IS the choice. This is not a logical fallacy. This is the real > choice real people have to make every day. "Changing the system" is not an > individual option. Not only is it a logical fallicy, but a legal one as well. It's all(!) a personal choice. Saying "I passed this law I knew was unconstitutional because it was the only thing I could think of" doesn't excuse the abuse. ONLY individuals have that right...it's a pity we've lost the true meaning of 'American Democracy'. Just too radical for most folks I guess. When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 17:06:56 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:06:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Unfortunately, "whining" is just that. Not much is done about it. Bull, see forward... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 17:08:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 19:08:00 -0500 Subject: Texas Prison Population Declining Message-ID: <3B43AFE0.186CA230@ssz.com> http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=389632&nav=0s3c -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From marilyn_western at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 19:14:05 2001 From: marilyn_western at yahoo.com (Marilyn) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:14:05 Subject: Win a free Luxury Cruise with your family Message-ID: <200107041620.f64GK4j24422@rigel.cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6009 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ashley.david at freemail.absa.co.za Wed Jul 4 19:48:58 2001 From: ashley.david at freemail.absa.co.za (ashley.david) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:48:58 -0700 Subject: pgp crack Message-ID: <000801c104fd$0db6b800$9df7cba3@x5p7p9> i have lost my private key can you help open my file -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 419 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 18:11:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:11:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010703181330.A27644@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > If the speed limits were 85 mph and a rental car company decided it > only wanted drivers to go 65 mph, they could put this in their contract > and enforce if, if they so choose. How? The only ethical way would be to either put a govenor on the vehicle or else have somebody ride along with you. Otherwise they'd just have to trust the civil authorities to catch speeders. > If they misjudge and drivers really, really want to go 85 mph, they > will lose business. Such are the gusting winds of the market. Not necessarily, there is an issue of cognisence and alternative. For example, let's say that the contract says 65 max, but somebody goes 85. How's the company going to know? > You may reasonably say that private companies should not be the > enforcement arms of the state, but they should be allowed to make their > own decisions when voluntarily choosing to do so. Within limits, yes. The question is where are the limits. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 18:12:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:12:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cloning, miscarriange, and the 1st In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, petro wrote: > Did you read what he said? As much as I hate to stand up for > Choate, you seem to be reiterating his point--that Eugenics is This is a perfect example of what's wrong with modern America, it's all about personalities - not issues, facts, and reason. Excuse me, I gotta go puke. What a dip-shit comment to make. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 4 20:26:38 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:26:38 -0700 Subject: Another problem with 'automated enforcement' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010704202638.00807520@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:43 PM 7/3/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >How do you call a video camera to the stand to give their deposition as >to the situation in which the photo was taken? Same way you query a radar 'gun' about the speed you were ticketed for. Calibration, for instance. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 4 20:29:56 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:29:56 -0700 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010704202956.00808880@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:44 PM 7/3/01 -0700, petro wrote: >>Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does >>raise questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their >>observation while in public. After all one is permitted tinted >>windows on autos. Despite certain > > Not everywhere, and even then not all windows. Forget windows. Noone tells bimbos to remove wigs, facepaint, sunglasses, gloves, various subdermal implants. You can, of course, *observe* them, but you can't force them to reveal (flash to Planet of the Apes sequel) their *true face*. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 19:11:19 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 21:11:19 -0500 Subject: Parole in America's criminal system Message-ID: <3B43CCC7.443683C9@ssz.com> http://www.allsands.com/History/Events/parolecriminal_xsa_gn.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 19:12:40 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 21:12:40 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Supercomputing and Climate Research Message-ID: <3B43CD18.E216D5A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/science/01/07/04/2311244.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Wed Jul 4 19:12:46 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 21:12:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [FREE] Sell a Glowstick, Go to Prison (fwd) Message-ID: ------------------------------------- Sell a Glowstick, Go to Prison http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11116 Authorities are shutting down 21st-century raves using 1980s crack-house laws -- and turning pacifiers and Vicks VapoRub into the new drug paraphernalia. ------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 19:42:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 21:42:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010704221121.A6210@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:11:06PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > > If the speed limits were 85 mph and a rental car company decided it > > > only wanted drivers to go 65 mph, they could put this in their contract > > > and enforce if, if they so choose. > > > > How? The only ethical way would be to either put a govenor on the vehicle > > or else have somebody ride along with you. Otherwise they'd just have to > > trust the civil authorities to catch speeders. > > 1. Notify renters you're going to GPS track the car to catch speeders > 2. GPS track the car to catch speeders > 3. Fine speeders > 4. Tell them you've fined them > > Perfectly ethical, though probably bad business practice. Actually it's not, it's a strawman to draw in more income. If the auto vendor was really concerned about their vehicle they'd install a govenor (like they did on the '64 1/2 Mustand for example) that would limit the RPM's of the engine. Quick, easy, simple. A lot(!!!) less expensive (about $20) and more reliable than a GPS receiver. It's the typical bait and switch (typical of capitalist/libertarian goals that is). What's an example of why this process won't work? Consider the GPS is set for 55MPH and the customer is doing exactly 50MPG (hence not being shown as a speeder) but is in a 30MPH zone. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Wed Jul 4 19:54:28 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 21:54:28 -0500 Subject: "smart cctv in use" (Tampa face-scanning CCTV) In-Reply-To: <200107030354.UAA13383@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: FROM VISIONICS PR DEPT: 7 Clear signage has been posted throughout the area indicating that Smart CCTV is in use; 7 The images in the database are those of known offenders; 7 Non-matching images are discarded from the system once the comparison has been conducted. "Smart CCTV" sign. Good enough to fool not only the average wanted criminal, but the average American. ~Aimee From amaha at vsnl.net Wed Jul 4 09:31:07 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:01:07 +0530 (IST) Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <20010704163107.F1E4824463@mmb1.vsnl.net.in> Never give in,never,never,never,never. --Winston Churchill ********************************************************************************** Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Joy (Non-religious Organisation) From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 19:11:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:11:22 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:11:06PM -0500 References: <20010703181330.A27644@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010704221121.A6210@cluebot.com> On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:11:06PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > If the speed limits were 85 mph and a rental car company decided it > > only wanted drivers to go 65 mph, they could put this in their contract > > and enforce if, if they so choose. > > How? The only ethical way would be to either put a govenor on the vehicle > or else have somebody ride along with you. Otherwise they'd just have to > trust the civil authorities to catch speeders. 1. Notify renters you're going to GPS track the car to catch speeders 2. GPS track the car to catch speeders 3. Fine speeders 4. Tell them you've fined them Perfectly ethical, though probably bad business practice. -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 20:16:49 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:16:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Why Auto-GPS speed regulation is doomed to fail Message-ID: Find the blue or black wire and pull the fuse. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 20:22:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 22:22:48 -0500 Subject: Stench warfare and stink bombs-U.S. secret weapon? Message-ID: <3B43DD88.3FFE5C4D@ssz.com> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010704/80/bxdin.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 20:33:13 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:33:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Libertarian Approach to Contracts (eg GPS Speed Regulation) Message-ID: Why is there no mention in the contract of: - Providing the customer the data upon return to the shop for review - A dispute mechanism (heavily used I predict) - Why should the auto manufacturer know all the places I've been in their car, what if the locations are business sensitive - Can the rental agency sell that data to others - Is it ethical to sell the data to the drivers regular insurance carrier even though there is no indication that the behaviour in the rental auto is comparable to behaviour in their own car (I know lots of people who figure 'I paid the insurance and it ain't my car, what the hell') - And who arbitrates the dispute, clearly it shouldn't be the rental agency as they have a vested interest The typical Libertarian approach is to support whatever puts the primary service provider (Libertarians almost always use producer-consumer examples, why is that?) in the primary profit making position and the service consumer in the least protected position. The typical Libertarian figures that if you can make a buck of the sucker, then any failure or harm in the contract by the provider is the dumb blind luck of the consumer. The concept of 'fair' is a pretty rare concept for most Libertarians. Then again, what is 'fair'? (Being a Pantheist the concept of 'absolute right/wrong' is foreign to me, only within the concept of human psychology and a specific social milieu is it definable) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 4 20:42:50 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:42:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A quote I love... Message-ID: "...: business and investors are scared of radical technology." pp. 239 Last Talons of the Eagle Secret Nazi Technology which could have changed the course of WWII G. Hyland, A. Gill ISBN 0-7472-5964-x -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From roach_s at intplsrv.net Wed Jul 4 20:53:23 2001 From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 22:53:23 -0500 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010704225303.00b109b0@mail.intplsrv.net> Can the program be thrown off with masks? If so, how about making some of those advertisement fans with the pictures of random people wanted for parking tickets on them, then walk through that end of town. Possibly better yet would be fliers, balloons, and bumper stickers. These could be given away to people in areas that don't particulary trust the local police anyway, or simply applied to cars of people who frequent areas such as the employee parking of the local court house. Either could be distributed to bars. Can the things be fooled by using black markers to add shadows where there should be none? Will painted on faces become the new rage in Tampa? I can just see people wearing "war paint", some to avoid the cameras, the rest because it's fashionable. At 09:26 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: Someone is Usenet wants to hassle the cameras with paintball guns. ---- http://www.baynews9.com/newsstory.asp?storyname=2001/June/30/ybor # # Orwell wrote 1984 warning for Britain. It is truly spooky how close he # was to the truth, though a bit late in the time frame. # # No one expected it to apply, too, to America. Yet, here it is. It is # far more sinister than people realize. As one reader already mentioned # in one thread: " this can readily be used for people carrying guns." # That, and the identification of members of the NRA, JPFO, GOA, North # Caucus, CCOPS, RKBA, and instant notification of the street cop in the # vicinity, and we have a far more THOROUGH Tyranny than even the North # Caucus envisioned when it began warning the people and government some # years ago. # # Our question, this time: "how accurate are paint guns? Seriously. # Could a # good shot peg these cameras from the street below?" We have similar # cameras # in a towns in Georgia, watching traffic for people running stop # lights. How long before those cameras are silently hooked into this # network for face recognition? # # It's time for civil disobedience. # 1) Arm yourselves in anticipation of a governmental advance on your # firearms. # 2) Get paint gun specialists to try these cameras. # 3) WARN the governments, local, state and national, that we won't stay # put # for such tyranny as they envision. # Our warning: # http://www.geocities.com/north_caucus [ an extremely alarmed over gun rights site ] # # Ben Waldo # North Caucus of America # Florida Section From maxinux at bigfoot.com Wed Jul 4 22:54:14 2001 From: maxinux at bigfoot.com (maxinux) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:54:14 -0700 Subject: Why Auto-GPS speed regulation is doomed to fail In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 10:16:49PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010704225414.A9073@spheno.jokeslayer.com> On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 10:16:49PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > Find the blue or black wire and pull the fuse. Until that enables an ignition lock. From measl at mfn.org Wed Jul 4 21:16:58 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:16:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010704235515.A29281@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > A speeder, in this discussion, is a person who breaks the speed limit > imposed by the _rental_contract_, not the state. If the company has > the technological ability to accurately (or inaccurately, although > that would probably be bad for business) measure the speed of the car, > they can tell if the person is exceeding their contractually > determined speed, that is, "speeding." If the contract says they can > charge $5000000 for each infraction, they can. Period. Even though it's likely irrelevent over the long term, I would expect that the contract would be somewhat self-destructive where it comes into conflict with State law, for example, where the vehicle is required by law to travel at some minimum speed (45mph on the highways around here), and the rental contract specifies something different. Obviously, I pulled this example out of my ass, and it is unlikely that any of these contracts would attempt to enforce such a low limit, however, it is descriptive as an example of public policy vs private contract interests. I am sure that the lawyercritters have given us any number of strange and not so wonderful laws which could find themselves in disagreement with these private contracts... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From registration at ifilm.com Wed Jul 4 23:17:38 2001 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Success! Your IFILM membership is confirmed! Message-ID: <200107050617.XAA91253@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Welcome to IFILM! Your membership is your ticket to IFILM: The Internet Movie Guide. >From "Some Like It Hot" to "Spider-Man" and "satire" to "swashbucklers," IFILM has what you want on every film ever released--and every new movie. It's the only place to find and watch all the movies online NOW. Be sure to check back daily for the latest movie info. 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ANNA KOURNICOVA CATHERINE ZETA JONES CINDY CRAWFORD ARE JUST A FEW OF THE BIG NAME STARS THAT WE HAVE ON OUR SITE EVER WONDERED WHAT YOUR FAVOURITE STAR LOOKED LIKE WITH A BIG COCK IN HER ASS HERE IS YOUR CHANCE http://www.geocities.com/superstarxxxpussy ****************************************************************** TO HAVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LISTS GO TO http://www.geocities.com/cancelxxcancel From rsw at MIT.EDU Wed Jul 4 20:55:16 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:55:16 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:42:48PM -0500 References: <20010704221121.A6210@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010704235515.A29281@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > What's an example of why this process won't work? Consider the GPS is set > for 55MPH and the customer is doing exactly 50MPG (hence not being shown > as a speeder) but is in a 30MPH zone. Squirrel definitions won't help you, Jim. Neither will the ridiculous straw men you're erecting. A speeder, in this discussion, is a person who breaks the speed limit imposed by the _rental_contract_, not the state. If the company has the technological ability to accurately (or inaccurately, although that would probably be bad for business) measure the speed of the car, they can tell if the person is exceeding their contractually determined speed, that is, "speeding." If the contract says they can charge $5000000 for each infraction, they can. Period. Like Declan and Steve point out, the consumer may not be happy with this. If they're not, they can go somewhere else. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From zenadmen at zenadmen.com Wed Jul 4 21:59:22 2001 From: zenadmen at zenadmen.com (zenadmen at zenadmen.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 23:59:22 -0500 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: <200107050025.f650P8W08778@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3B43ADDA.12641.C82DD6@localhost> On 5 Jul 2001, at 3:59, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > > >If everyone refused plea bargaining, and refused parole, the number of > >people who could be prosecuted and jailed would be a small fraction of > >those who are "in the system" today. > > I think the relative cost of parole vs. completing the sentence is the > pertinent question -- the parole system can be a wonderful thing, as Sandy > says, but the government should never be able to reduce costs by using it. > There should be paroles, but their cost should somehow be forced to the same > level as serving the time behind bars. After that the only reason to let > someone out would be the balance between the prospect of rehabilitation vs. > risk taken. If a non-expert may interject.. while I can't judge how realistic it would be to repeal laws or to do some of the other things mentioned in this thread, it seems to me that "making parole cost less" would be defeated by the simple economics of spending x to house someone, and not spending x not to. Like I say, I'm not intimate with the details of costs of prisons or of monitoring parolees - is there more to it than that? It seems like it would be too artificial to simply add costs where there aren't any. sparkane > > Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 > student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From rsw at MIT.EDU Wed Jul 4 21:04:52 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:04:52 -0400 Subject: The Libertarian Approach to Contracts (eg GPS Speed Regulation) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 10:33:13PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010705000452.B29281@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > The typical Libertarian approach is to support whatever puts the primary > service provider (Libertarians almost always use producer-consumer > examples, why is that?) in the primary profit making position and the > service consumer in the least protected position. The typical Libertarian > figures that if you can make a buck of the sucker, then any failure or > harm in the contract by the provider is the dumb blind luck of the > consumer. It is the responsibility of the consumer to make sure that the terms of the contract are agreeable prior to entering the contract. That doesn't leave them in an unprotected position, it leaves them in a position of power. If they don't like the contract, they leave. Easy. How could it possibly be any other way? "Oh, wait, I didn't know about that clause in the contract, so my obligation is null and void." That would be a great step forward for contract law, no? -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From thisis at awesome.com Wed Jul 4 23:01:04 2001 From: thisis at awesome.com (thisis at awesome.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:01:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: No more boredom! 9589 Message-ID: <200107050601.BAA28293@pinemtn.cpinternet.com> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (thisis at awesome.com) on Thursday, July 5, 2001 at 01:01:03 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- : Looking for new people to talk to? Find someone to share your interests with online or in person. Better yet find your soul mate! Stop being bored online. Click Here!!




1228 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From yesyesyes at aol.com Thu Jul 5 01:01:39 2001 From: yesyesyes at aol.com (yesyesyes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:01:39 Subject: YOURAWINNER Message-ID: <293.650974.817562@aol.com> 2 SEE THE BEST CUM SLURPING,BLOW SHOTS ON THE NET CHECK OUT THESE YOUNG LITTLE HONEY'S SMEARING THEMSELVES IN JISM http://www.geocities.com/xxxcumshooters CUM,CUM AND MORE CUM. THESE LITTLE WHORES ARE HERE TO EAT EVERY DROP OF YOUR LOAD AND MORE!!!!!!!!!! http://www.geocities.com/xxxcumshooters ****************************************************************** ALL MEMBERSHIPS RECIEVE ACCESS TO ALL OF OUR 32 SITES/LIMITED OFFER ------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR THE BEST ANAL FUCK SITE EVER TO BE RELEASED ON THE WEB!!! http://www.geocities.com/analxxxaction FUCK MY ASS UNTIL IT BLEEDS,PLEASE? THEN I'LL LICK THE SHIT OFF YOUR DICK. HOW I LOVE IT IN THE ASS, AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!!! 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In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Sampo Syreeni > >> But just as Tim argues, the latter >> always involves cost-effectiveness >> too...There should always be a >> sufficient, predictable cost >> associated with putting people >> away to guard against >> criminalization for convenience, >> prudence and political gain only. > >I'm sure that "cost-effectiveness" has a role to play here. I just don't >agree that the cost savings of parole are all that big a factor. The US has >more prisoners per capital than just about anyone (I think the US is >surpassed by Russia and maybe South Africa). So we've already made the >decision that we can afford to lock up a lot of people. The disparity in numbers is largely due to the way we treat the mentally ill. "They" (Russia, and most of europe) don't count the numbers of people forcebly institutionalized for "mental illness" as part of their prisoner counts, and here in the US the government *usually* doesn't forcibly institutionalize someone until after they've committed a crime, or at least been convicted of a crime of some sort, whether it really should be a crime. >Also, the assumption that locking up more people comes at some sort of >linear increase in costs. One of the simplest answers is to just overcrowd >the facilities "we" already have. Simple answers are for simple problems or simple people. This is not a simple problem. >No, I think Tim and Sampo have the cart before the horse. We have the >criminal laws we have because that feeds the government, not because we save >so much with parole. Eliminating parole by overcrowding or by building >still more prisons would increase, not decrease human suffering. I think you're both wrong. We have increasingly more laws because we don't have enough problems for our elected leaders to deal with, and in order to justify their pay checks they feel they need to "Be Doing Something", so they manufacture one crisis after another, propose and half-ass implement some nit-wit solution. The problem is that dimwitted idiots keep re-electing these rotten sonsabitches. >Honestly, would you rather wear a ankle transponder or be Bruno's bitch? CypherPrisonSluts? -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 4 15:29:35 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:29:35 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Forbidden Knowledge (Banned Research, Part II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >There _might_ be a bunch of failed implant attempts, failed attempts to >bring a fertilized egg to term. [...] But no particular "imminent danger" >requiring police action to protect the safety of others. This is of course just a part of a general tendency, the broadening of law to cover risk (e.g. mandatory seatbelts), indirect harm (e.g. the idea of currency transaction taxation to "stabilize" exchange rates), thought crime (e.g. hacking, copyright violation and the diaries-as-child-porn stuff), harm through inaction (e.g. not helping a suffocating person) and "injustice" (e.g. nondiscrimation statutes; my own views are in flux over this one). I.e., people increasingly consider law in terms of consequences, not actions. I can't see how this is a surprise to anyone on the list. >The real issue is about a move toward "permission requirements" for >research. And also the fact that people increasingly view such licencing as part of the government's legitimate sphere of influence, or even its responsibility. Somewhere along the line ordinary people seem to have lost the idea that by default everything is allowed, and have come to think that before one can do something, the state can, and so has to, guarantee that there are no unfortunate consequences (e.g. FDA requirements on new pharmaceuticals). Hence, regulation based on possibilities instead of outcomes. >The real issue, as readers of my stuff will know, is the creation and >support of guilds: licensing is a rent-seeking mechanism. One might extend that to people with at least some familiarity with libertarian theory. >How long before it carries over to other areas in biology? I think something similar to this is already happening, only indirectly through patents on basic bioresearch tools. It isn't legislation, but the centralization sure makes state control a helluva lot easier, plus gives tonnes of legitimate sounding excuses for the King's men to go over your possessions. >Why not restrict computer virus research? Hasn't it been, already? If I'm not mistaken, people already go to prison for writing viruses. Ditto for hacking tools, TPM circumvention software, and soon probably spamming tools as well. >Or nanotech research? We'll have to wait for that until the critters do something useful, or the general public believes that is an imminent "threat". >-- the "ban on bomb-making instructions" proposed by the usual suspects is >a variant on this issue. Mm. I've always thought of this sort of thing as more of a spinoff of the conventional censorship discourse. Might be there is a difference, though, as Plain Old Censorship is usually advocated because the material itself is "harmful", while we now operate on the added spin of "stuff that enables you to do Bad Things". That's obviously a bit broader in that it covers just about all functional science/technology, even if the stuff per se does not incite the reader to *do* anything. >-- and as with "precursor chemicals," chemicals which _could_ be made into >methamphetamines or Sarin or other banned items, there will be bans on >"precursor knowledge." The patent argument above ties nicely with this one. >It's the groundwork, the precursor knowledge, that the government is now >cracking down on. A very disturbing trend. I think the Rael crackdown is more a display of common irrationality than the kind of deviousness you attribute to it. "But we need to do *something* about it!" >-- fortunately, these "warning shots" will perhaps accelerate a transition >into cypherspace. Or, if you are right about the precursor knowledge bit, a fresh attack on crypto infrastructure. This time it would probably start by associating crypto with pedophiles -- lately national security seems to have lost its most corrosive appeal. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 4 15:44:35 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:44:35 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >The problem is not that parole exists--be thankful that it does. The >problem is the criminalization of every area of life. But just as Tim argues, the latter always involves cost-effectiveness too. All in all, constitutions should have adequate protections against black letter law and, more generally, "free" criminalization of any conduct. There should always be a sufficient, predictable cost associated with putting people away to guard against criminalization for convenience, prudence and political gain only. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From Alex at ecotone.toad.com Thu Jul 5 02:00:35 2001 From: Alex at ecotone.toad.com (Alex Wong) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 02:00:35 Subject: 3Com Volume Discount Message-ID: <200107041745.KAA10082@ecotone.toad.com> Dear Valued Customer, Re: Volume Discount 3C900-Combo refurbished / 1000pcs / usd8.5- 3C16704 4-ports refurbished / 1000pcs / usd25- 3C16592A 12-ports 10/100 brand new / 500pcs / usd150- 3C3594 PCI 56K V.90 Voice brand new / 10000pcs / pls check Best Regards Alex Wong Cleverway From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 23:16:42 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 02:16:42 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:42:48PM -0500 References: <20010704221121.A6210@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010705021642.A12123@cluebot.com> On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:42:48PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > If the auto vendor was really concerned about their vehicle they'd install > a govenor (like they did on the '64 1/2 Mustand for example) that would > limit the RPM's of the engine. Quick, easy, simple. A lot(!!!) less > expensive (about $20) and more reliable than a GPS receiver. Then you'd risk spurious lawsuits from someone who can't accelerate to get out of an accident situation, and you'd also lose the source of income you might get from all these speeding tickets you as the renter would levy. > It's the typical bait and switch (typical of capitalist/libertarian goals > that is). This is just insane. -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Jul 4 23:22:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 02:22:09 -0400 Subject: The Libertarian Approach to Contracts (eg GPS Speed Regulation) In-Reply-To: <20010705000452.B29281@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@mit.edu on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:04:52AM -0400 References: <20010705000452.B29281@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010705022209.B12123@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:04:52AM -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > It is the responsibility of the consumer to make sure that the terms > of the contract are agreeable prior to entering the contract. That > doesn't leave them in an unprotected position, it leaves them in a > position of power. If they don't like the contract, they leave. > Easy. The clarity of Riad's message above is a welcome reprive from the Choatian posts elsewhere in this thread. It is true that companies may offer us contracts we don't like. It is true that sometimes consumers will in fact have "little choice" (though in a modern society where starvation is not the norm, they'll always have some choice) when there's only one rental car firm in town, for instance. But if they dislike the policies of that rental car company to the extent they are willing to pay $100 for a cab to the next city, they can vote with their pocketbook. This may be an annoying situation on occasion, but nobody said capitalism was perfect -- just that it's better than statism. -Declan From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 4 16:27:38 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 02:27:38 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >I'm sure that "cost-effectiveness" has a role to play here. I just don't >agree that the cost savings of parole are all that big a factor. The US has >more prisoners per capital than just about anyone (I think the US is >surpassed by Russia and maybe South Africa). So we've already made the >decision that we can afford to lock up a lot of people. Yep, the US does lock a whole lot of people up. But what about the constant whining about "overflowing prisons", then. Or the many instants where prisoners are put on parole en masse to cut costs and/or to free up prison real estate? That sort of thing isn't about a decision to invest a lot into incarceration, but precisely the kind of thing that one day makes everyone a parolee. >Also, the assumption that locking up more people comes at some sort of >linear increase in costs. One of the simplest answers is to just >overcrowd the facilities "we" already have. There would be ways to control this too. One way is to make it possible for inmates to sue for damage due to overcrowding and the violence it causes. This would make for a superlinear increase in cost, and eventual balancing in the density of inmates. >No, I think Tim and Sampo have the cart before the horse. We have the >criminal laws we have because that feeds the government, not because we save >so much with parole. *Of course* parole isn't the initial cause, but it's one of the few enabling factors which allow excess criminalization of harmless conduct to be at least partially quenched. The usual reasons for legislative bloat stop us from pruning the code directly, but a strong strawman can be made for not letting people out of the slammer before their term is up. >Eliminating parole by overcrowding or by building still more prisons would >increase, not decrease human suffering. That's really just the age old question of whether two people suffering half as much each constitutes the same amount of total suffering. From the standpoint of individual freedom, one might argue that more people are now hurting. You would probably say the maximum harm/injustice done is now less. I still think that in the first case the probability of a given person being unjustly imprisoned is doubled, and this is bad. >Honestly, would you rather wear a ankle transponder or be Bruno's bitch? As you already put it, given a chance, neither. But the real point is that transponders shouldn't be an option *and* the cost of putting people away should be high enough to become prohibitive for anything but the most serious of crimes. If this was to come to pass, the question would instead become "would you rather be free with your rights intact than wear a tag?". Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 4 17:22:47 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 03:22:47 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> Or the many instants where prisoners are put on parole en masse to cut >> costs and/or to free up prison real estate? > >That's really a separate problem having to do with our insane mandatory >sentencing laws (primarily for drug-related offenses). When they do release >folks, they are usually the ones convicted of really vicious crimes. I agree that that too has a part in it, and that mandatory sentencing is a genuinely braindead idea. However, it has a lot more to do with who gets to walk than with somebody having to be let out in the first place. The primary reason is that the society simply isn't willing to invest enough in prisons to carry the load, contrary to what you originally claimed. >> One way is to make it possible for inmates to sue for damage due to >> overcrowding and the violence it causes. [...] > >Well that would be nice, but why not focus in on the real problem, too many >laws? Forget suing, leave parole alone, just get rid of the myriad of laws. That's just the point -- you can't. The political machine simply does not work that way, which is seen by the proportion of new laws passed to old ones stricken. The reasons are well known (one common way to lump the reasons is to call them "political suicide"), and are pretty difficult to get around without resorting to the kind of ass-backwards trickery we've been describing. >> From the standpoint of individual freedom, one might argue that more >> people are now hurting. > >Than what, Utopia? Than anywhere else in the world. Especially note that, even if it clearly doesn't lead to the most effective disincentive on crime, Europeans' fairly humane attitudes towards prison inmates largely serve the purpose Tim and I are after with the cost talk. The mechanism isn't nearly as important as the underlying necessity of imposing a real cost on governments' harmful activities. That is the only way that really works; goodwill simply does not get things done. >That isn't the choice now. It's between getting out or staying in a >hell-hole prison. Not true. The same argument you use, i.e. that habitual restrictions on freedom can be traded for at least /some/ freedom, can be used to argue that you can always sacrifice your freedom in order to stay out of jail in the first place. Just obey the law, however senseless it might be. It's /certainly/ better than being hauled into the hellhole. >Nobody is hurt by parole. I hope that was meant as a joke. >Get rid of the laws and the parole issue goes away by itself. Talk about Utopia... Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 4 17:59:45 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 03:59:45 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: <200107050025.f650P8W08778@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: >If everyone refused plea bargaining, and refused parole, the number of >people who could be prosecuted and jailed would be a small fraction of >those who are "in the system" today. I think the relative cost of parole vs. completing the sentence is the pertinent question -- the parole system can be a wonderful thing, as Sandy says, but the government should never be able to reduce costs by using it. There should be paroles, but their cost should somehow be forced to the same level as serving the time behind bars. After that the only reason to let someone out would be the balance between the prospect of rehabilitation vs. risk taken. 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So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ========================================================== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ========================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4 . $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ========================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ======================================================= Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. =========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ==================================================== REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" Order Report #1 from: Willie Farmer 2501 Horne Dr. Charlotte, NC 28206 USA ___________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" Order Report # 2 from: Monty Porter PO Box 1104 American Fork, Utah 84003 USA ___________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" Order Report # 3 from: Melvin Manigault 104 Miller Ave. Lindenwold, N. J. 08021 USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 4 from: Aaron Joseph P.O Box 21155 Columbia Heights, MN 55421 USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" Order Report # 5 from: Randall Williams 401 Stocks Dairy Road Leesburg, Georgia 31763 USA ____________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ====================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ====================================================== ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ======================================================= ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ======================================================= ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to Internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ======================================================= ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ***************************************************************** This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill section 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you. To be removed from our e-mail list please reply to request_off_list at bigmailbox.net with the word remove in the subject line. Thank you. List Management Services ***************************************************************** ********************************* From wjfarmer1 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 04:33:23 2001 From: wjfarmer1 at yahoo.com (wjfarmer1 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 04:33:23 Subject: High-Quality Gifts At Bargain Low Prices!!! Message-ID: <391.613142.477948@Server 02> Dear Preferred Customer, For great bargains on Gifts,Novelties,Garden Decor and Home Decor items etc.. check out samnwjfvm.giftworldnet.com This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill section 301. Per section 301. Paragraph (a) (2) (c) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of the email may be stopped at no cost to you. To be removed from our email list, please reply to SamandWJF at excite.com with the word remove in the subject line. From registration at ifilm.com Thu Jul 5 04:57:01 2001 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 04:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IFILM Lost Password Message-ID: <200107051157.EAA71501@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, We have created a new password to protect your IFILM account. Your username and password are currently recorded as follows: USERNAME: cypunks PASSWORD: 2TnVMq When you log back in, you will be prompted to personalize your password. If you have questions, or are experiencing any problems, please read our help section at http://www.ifilm.com/db/static_text/0,1699,14440,00.html. IFILM: The Internet Movie Guide http://www.ifilm.com ------------------------------------ IFILM has a strict anti-spamming policy. You are receiving this because you or someone registered on our site with this email address. If this is not correct and you wish to unsubscribe, please click here: http://www.ifilm.com/ifilm/unsubsribe. We sincerely apologize for any errors and will make every effort to correct them immediately. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 5 05:39:34 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 05:39:34 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010705053934.008e5640@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:55 PM 7/4/01 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: Remember, >the US repealed an anti-drug constitutional amendment. If they can go >through all the sturm und drang required to repeal an amendment, I don't see >why mere statutes can't be undone. > That was a different US. *That* US had to pass a constitutional amendment to control *that* drug in the first place. Different country. They actually respected the constitution then. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 5 05:43:32 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 05:43:32 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010704225303.00b109b0@mail.intplsrv.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010705054332.0080a7e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:53 PM 7/4/01 -0500, Sean Roach wrote: >Can the program be thrown off with masks? If so, how about making some of >those advertisement fans with the pictures of random people wanted for >parking tickets on them, then walk through that end of town. Parking tickets? Go to the local cop/FBI site, download the *Wanted* pix, fab a mask, have fun. From measl at mfn.org Thu Jul 5 05:38:01 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:38:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, petro pulled this right out of his ass... > The disparity in numbers is largely due to the way we treat > the mentally ill. "They" (Russia, and most of europe) don't count the > numbers of people forcebly institutionalized for "mental illness" as > part of their prisoner counts, and here in the US the government > *usually* doesn't forcibly institutionalize someone until after > they've committed a crime, or at least been convicted of a crime of > some sort, whether it really should be a crime. Total, unequivocal bullshit. You have anything to back up these absurd statements? (1) "Forcibly institutionalized" patients are *NOT* [legally] "prisoners", and therefore are not included in prisoner counts. Obviously, this statement excludes those persons committed to institutions by a court as "unfit to stand trial" - a microscopic percentage of the "patient" population in the U.S. (2) The "2-P.C." [2 Psychiatrist Committal] laws do NOT apply to someone *after* they have committed a crime. After they commit a crime, they are under the jurisdiction of a *court*, and they are no longer patients (and only _patients_ get 2-P.C.'d). (3) The 2.P.C. laws are in EVERY state specifically allow for, and in fact, REQUIRE, that a person be involuntarily committed if "they present an immenent danger to themselves or others". This is clearly not the same as "have committed a crime". First you claim that "nobody has ever survived a shot to the head with a .32", and now *this* -- Where do you get this shit from??? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 5 08:23:02 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forbidden Knowledge (Banned Research, Part II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: Tim May writes: >>Why not restrict computer virus research? > >Hasn't it been, already? If I'm not mistaken, people already go to prison >for writing viruses. Ditto for hacking tools, TPM circumvention software, >and soon probably spamming tools as well. Not quite yet. People have gone to prison for *releasing* viruses, not for *writing* them. Heck, I've written a dozen viruses myself, and not one has ever been run on a machine I didn't reformat within the week. An amusing pastime - not a crime. Bear From tcmay at got.net Thu Jul 5 08:36:57 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:36:57 -0700 Subject: Speed governors on rental cars In-Reply-To: <20010705021642.A12123@cluebot.com> References: <20010704221121.A6210@cluebot.com> <20010705021642.A12123@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:16 AM -0400 7/5/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:42:48PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >> If the auto vendor was really concerned about their vehicle they'd install >> a govenor (like they did on the '64 1/2 Mustand for example) that would >> limit the RPM's of the engine. Quick, easy, simple. A lot(!!!) less >> expensive (about $20) and more reliable than a GPS receiver. > >Then you'd risk spurious lawsuits from someone who can't accelerate >to get out of an accident situation, and you'd also lose the source of >income you might get from all these speeding tickets you as the >renter would levy. It apparently already happens, the installation of governors on rental cars. I rented a car at the Baltimore-Washington airport last summer and merrily got on the freeway (er, "parkway") connecting it with the Beltway. It was late at night, traffic was light, so I stepped on the gas. It just ran out of speed at about 65. Couldn't get it to go any faster, even with the pedal to the floor. Now it _could_ be that it was just a late American model, heavily-pollution-control-entangled econobox, but I've driven el cheapo Korean and Japanese models which had no problem reaching high speeds on straightaways. I figured at the time that the rental cars had indeed been equipped with RPM governors. I was only mildly annoyed and I didn't feel my safety was threatened, pace the above point about accelerating. Most traffic acceleration risks are at lower speeds, so a top-end speed governor isn't likely to pose a safety risk. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Thu Jul 5 08:47:38 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:47:38 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:09 PM +0200 7/5/01, Eugene Leitl wrote: >On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > >> Parking tickets? Go to the local cop/FBI site, download the >> *Wanted* pix, fab a mask, have fun. > >Hmm. It might work for the current generation of cams, but not for stuff >which actually measures the face topography. And, of course, you can't >hide the other biometrics. It seems, even plastic surgery has its limits. The archives, or a search engine, will turn up many past discussions we've had of face recognition and biometrics. One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best correlation features. Of course, to measure ear shape the camera has to have a good view, unobscured and at close enough range to get a decent number of pixels. (This makes sense, that ear shape would be a good metric. I've been noticing the variations in ear shapes since I heard about this scheme. Also, I can imagine the various conformal transformations--different angles of view, for example--preserve certain relationships well.) I can believe some kind of automated face recognition is being done with points of entry, such as international airport arrival points, but I find it hard to swallow that "crowd shots" from overhead cameras can do anything meaningful. The Tampa action may be mostly social engineering: "We're watching you!" --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From cupid at adultfriendfinder.com Thu Jul 5 09:33:08 2001 From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com) Date: 5 Jul 2001 09:33:08 -0700 Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo Message-ID: <20010705163308.18534.qmail@e114.friendfinder.com> Dear oddodoodo, The following are some of the recent members that match your Cupid search on the Adult Friend Finder web site located at http://adultfriendfinder.com Match #1 HANDLE: groupsrus6969 TITLE: "hello" PROFILE: http://adultfriendfinder.com/cupid/11474114_73653 LOCATION: canon city, Colorado, United States GENDER: AGE: 23 --------------------------- Match #2 HANDLE: aadu TITLE: "a dream man (definetly check it out)" PROFILE: http://adultfriendfinder.com/cupid/11472741_35220 LOCATION: Tallinn, Harju maakond, Estonia GENDER: AGE: 24 --------------------------- You have a total of 2 new matches on Adult Friend Finder! 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To remove yourself from the mailing list, please log into Adultfriendfinder.com with your handle and password. *************************************************************** From lizard at mrlizard.com Thu Jul 5 09:41:45 2001 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 09:41:45 -0700 Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his privatejournal References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010705112216.021106b0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3B4498C9.2640C9B0@mrlizard.com> Marc Rotenberg wrote: > > If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a State > has no business telling a man, sitting alone in his own house, > what books he may read or what films he may watch. Our whole > constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving > government the power to control men's minds. > > Stanley v. Georgia, 394 US 557, 566 (1969) (Marshall, J.) "Yeah, but that doesn't apply to perverts!":Any censor, any time, any place. From alqaeda at hq.org Thu Jul 5 09:48:10 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 09:48:10 -0700 Subject: Denver to use facial biometrics on drivers' licenses Message-ID: <3B449A4A.9F939DF7@hq.org> Colo. to 'map' faces of drivers http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,11%257E57823,00.html By Julia C. Martinez Denver Post Capitol Bureau Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - First it was the photo-radar vans snapping pictures of Denver-area speeders. Now, some fear Big Brother's roving eye soon will be watching all of Colorado with the arrival of a new European import called "face recognition." The Department of Motor Vehicles, in an effort to prevent identity theft and driver's license fraud, is buying cameras that will map every driver's facial characteristics like a three-dimensional land chart. The danger, critics say, is that the technology could eventually be expanded to monitor the comings and goings of ordinary Coloradans. This week, Tampa, Fla., became the first city in the United States to install similar high-tech security cameras on public streets to scan crowds in the city's nightlife district. Images will be compared against a database of mug shots of people with active warrants. "There is a danger," said Rep. Matt Smith, a Grand Junction lawmaker and attorney who serves on a statewide task force studying the issue of privacy. "The intended purpose of facial recognition is to help the state prevent the theft of identity. Now the question is, "What will its future use be?' "There has to be a point where the government doesn't have its nose over every shoulder," he said. Mug shots compared Old driver's license photos will be scanned into a computer database using the new technology. Then, starting next July, new mugs will be compared with those on file to make sure people are who they say they are when they go to get, or renew, a Colorado driver's license. It doesn't matter if you gain 200 pounds and go bald between photographs. Short of plastic surgery, the camera will recognize you. "Facial recognition deals with spatial details, where a nose is compared with the eyes," said Dorothy Dalquist, spokeswoman for the Colorado Department of Revenue. "Baldness doesn't count, and weight doesn't either. It's the basic facial structure." The state legislature authorized the technology during the last session. State officials won't disclose the cost of the system until they meet later this month with officials from Polaroid, one of the companies involved in making the system. In the beginning, face recognition will be used to try to prevent criminals from obtaining multiple driver licenses under others' names, Dalquist said. "We know of cases where individuals steal personal information from other people, forge documents and go to six or seven driver license offices getting licenses with their pictures and other people's identities. In theory, they have a legitimate license, but in actuality, they're not who they say they are," Dalquist said. "Now, we will be able to say after the first one, "No, you can't have another one.'" Or the police could be called in. "My guess is if we saw something that is an egregious misuse of the system, we might alert law enforcement to that," she said. The cameras can't prevent the types of fraud that now occur when people make their own driver's licenses using home computers and the Internet. However, as part of the new program, invisible markers will be added to each new license so stores or banks can scan the card to see if it's genuine. Privacy concerns The technology has raised concerns about privacy, ethics and government intrusion. Privacy advocates are concerned that a database of photographs could itself spill into the Orwellian realm. "We all want to catch as many criminals as we possibly can, but we also have to be concerned about the privacy issues," said Sen. Ken Gordon, D-Denver, a member of a state task force set up to craft legislation aimed at protecting privacy. "Information obtained for one purpose is sometimes used for reasons that were not contemplated by people who set up the system to begin with." Gordon said Colorado already sells driver records to insurance companies for $5 million a year. "If we're going to create a database of photographs of every driver in Colorado, will it be used only to protect against criminals?" Gordon asked. "Or will it be used for commercial purposes or marketing or to produce books of people's photos. We have to be careful." Colorado's new system could pave the way for expanded use, say for instance tapping into a criminal database and finding out if someone getting a driver license is a fugitive. "I'm sure law enforcement would appreciate it sometime in the future," Dalquist said. "Right now, we're not hooking into their data process. We're trying to protect citizens against identity fraud, and businesses, too." But some say this latest technology could continue to grow into a Tampa-like monitoring system. Last month, Denver police used low-tech, hand-held video cameras to catch rowdy partygoers celebrating the Colorado Avalanche's Stanley Cup victory. "We haven't discussed it," said Denver police Sgt. Tony Lombard, "not at this point." From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 5 07:18:22 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:18:22 -0400 Subject: [Pigdog] Freenet v. Bunkernet (Was: [EWAR] Top firms retreat intobunker toward off anarchists (fwd) Message-ID: > Eugene Leitl[SMTP:Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de] [...] > Some of Britain's biggest companies are running their internet > operations > on systems installed in a 300ft-deep nuclear blast-proof bunker to protect > customers from violent anti-capitalist campaigners. [much snippage] I met some of these guys at the RSA conference, and suggested that they set up live webcams on all their enterances, so colo customers could respond to an illegal raid in progress. I wonder if they did it - their site [www.thebunker.com] appears unavailable at the moment. Peter From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 5 07:18:22 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:18:22 -0400 Subject: [Pigdog] Freenet v. Bunkernet (Was: [EWAR] Top firms retreat intobunker toward off anarchists (fwd) Message-ID: > Eugene Leitl[SMTP:Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de] [...] > Some of Britain's biggest companies are running their internet > operations > on systems installed in a 300ft-deep nuclear blast-proof bunker to protect > customers from violent anti-capitalist campaigners. [much snippage] I met some of these guys at the RSA conference, and suggested that they set up live webcams on all their enterances, so colo customers could respond to an illegal raid in progress. I wonder if they did it - their site [www.thebunker.com] appears unavailable at the moment. Peter From newsletter at stocks.com Thu Jul 5 07:19:10 2001 From: newsletter at stocks.com (newsletter at stocks.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stocks.com Newsletter Message-ID: <20010705141910.C7426214202@server1.rockriverstar.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3705 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 5 08:24:57 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:24:57 -0500 Subject: The Times - American clinic selects babies sex Message-ID: <3B4486C9.922CD752@ssz.com> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001230966,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 5 10:30:58 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:30:58 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Passed on to us from Anonymous Coredump: > THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a > Black Bloc is that people wear all > black, and stay in a tight formation. Okay, so the Black Bloc "anarchists" have a uniform and march in lock-step formation. Hmm. Where do I get my "official" anarchist membership card? Oh, I know, I get it from the anarchists' leader. S a n d y From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 5 10:31:34 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote: >purpose of a Black Bloc is to provide anonymity for it's members. You >are not doing yourself or your comrades any service by dressing in a >distinct way. Individuality is great and all, but sometimes it's okay to >ditch it for a few hours in order to avoid jail time. It amuses me to see "anarchists" abandoning individuality. Bear From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 07:32:27 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:32:27 -0400 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:18:51AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010705103227.A25690@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:18:51AM -0700, petro wrote: > CypherPrisonSluts? Speaking of which, this is happening today: PRESS RELEASES The Bureau of Justice Statistics will issue a release (embargoed until Sunday) regarding HIV infection among prison inmates. (Miller) -Declan From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 5 07:40:18 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th Message-ID: > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com] > > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > The whole issue of "going masked" is a murky one, legally. > > No, it isn't. While police certainly need 'probably cause' to institute a > search there are NO (zero, nadah, nil, nul, none) requirements on citizens > to wear any particular part or type of clothing (or not wear it even). Any > such law would violate the 1st. > > James Choate > ---------------- Of course, Choate fails to check facts.... -------------------------------- City of Cincinnati section 910-17. "Wearing of masks or hoods" no person shall appear on any public way, public property or any place open to view by the general public wearing a mask, hood, regalia, paraphernalia or other device which partially or completely covers the face with purpose to conceal the identity of the wearer. The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (1) a person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) a person lawfully engaged in trade or employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession or sporting activity. (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production or at masquerade balls or for other entertainment purposes; (4) a person wearing a gas or medical mask as prescribed for emergencies or by current medical regulations. Whoever violates this section is guilty of wearing a mask or hood in public, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. ------------------------ Whether or not Jim thinks this is constitutional (and I and many others would agree that it is not), it is the law of the land and a requirement, at least in Cinicinnati. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 5 07:40:18 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th Message-ID: > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com] > > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > The whole issue of "going masked" is a murky one, legally. > > No, it isn't. While police certainly need 'probably cause' to institute a > search there are NO (zero, nadah, nil, nul, none) requirements on citizens > to wear any particular part or type of clothing (or not wear it even). Any > such law would violate the 1st. > > James Choate > ---------------- Of course, Choate fails to check facts.... -------------------------------- City of Cincinnati section 910-17. "Wearing of masks or hoods" no person shall appear on any public way, public property or any place open to view by the general public wearing a mask, hood, regalia, paraphernalia or other device which partially or completely covers the face with purpose to conceal the identity of the wearer. The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (1) a person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) a person lawfully engaged in trade or employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession or sporting activity. 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From alqaeda at hq.org Thu Jul 5 10:50:37 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:50:37 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: <3B44A8ED.B60CFDCA@hq.org> > but in order for a Black Bloc to truly > be effective, then that means that we should dress appropriately. Do Anarchists observe casual Fridays? From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jul 5 11:10:03 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:10:03 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B444B0B.12812.84620F@localhost> -- On 4 Jul 2001, at 16:49, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Eliminating parole > should be the LAST thing done to reform the system. Anything else merely > compounds the evil. Anyone who can be safely paroled, should probably not have been convicted. Parole is cheap way of punishing decent people. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG eeF6bWdGi6Nlilw20hDTBV02B16d1ESzbPeXnQJn 4UXpXu/jnduCgpY098KSl2dx7IXoLpBcMta+VJ/xz From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jul 5 11:10:03 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:10:03 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B444B0B.2443.846223@localhost> -- On 4 Jul 2001, at 16:09, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > I'm sure that "cost-effectiveness" has a role to play here. I just don't > agree that the cost savings of parole are all that big a factor. The US has > more prisoners per capital than just about anyone I am inclined to doubt this much touted statistic -- for example china is estimated to have executed a thousand people last month, not withstanding the fact that it is routinely claimed that the US leads the world in executions. There are more executions reported in a day in China than in a year in the US, and most go unreported. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG neI92PXMeEo+ptXtc+YRJz9i0lF53Zg8kfnOHDu/ 4uBqot95kQAC2bLElfCbSoo0OKuQMBfzYKirulFIW From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 08:22:46 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010705112216.021106b0@mail.well.com> [A followup to a cpunx thread, and a link to the statute.] >Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:15:01 -0400 >To: politech at politechbot.com >From: Declan McCullagh >Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal >Cc: tdoulin at dispatch.com > >This is an unusual case. The Ohio law -- a 1970s version of which Politech >member Bruce Taylor successfully defended before a federal appeals court >-- applies not only to dirty pictures, but also to written material: > >http://www.moralityinmedia.org/obsclawlinks.htm#oh >"No person, with knowledge of the character of the material or performance >involved, shall do any of the following... Create, reproduce, or publish >any obscene material that has a minor as one of its participants or >portrayed observers... Buy, procure, possess, or control any obscene >material, that has a minor as one of its participants..." > >Anyone who possesses such a visual or written description -- including a >diary entry or an erotic story -- is guilty of a felony. That means >Ohioans who have on their hard drive an "obscene" text file from >alt.sex.stories are felons. > >Other coverage: >http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-07-05/News_and_Views/Beyond_the_City/a-117267.asp >http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/07/05/loc_tristate_a_m_report.html > >-Declan > >********* > >From: "Robert V. Zwink" >To: >Subject: Man's journal ruled obscene >Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:24:08 -0400 >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >This is possibly one for your list. A 22-year old wrote extensively about >his pedophile delusions in a daily personal journal. Law enforcement found >the journal, today he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Seems he should >be in an addiction clinic not a prison. The journal was never published. > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > From The Columbus Dispatch >http://www.dispatch.com/news/news01/july01/755632.html > >Man's journal ruled obscene > >Wednesday, July 4, 2001 > >Tim Doulin >Dispatch Staff Reporter > >Brian Dalton wrote fictitious tales of sexually abusing and torturing >children in his private journal, intending that no one else see them, he >said. > >But when his probation officer found the journal during a routine search of >Dalton's Columbus home, prosecutors charged him with pandering obscenity >involving a minor. > >In Franklin County Common Pleas Court yesterday, the 22-year-old man's >written words cost him 10 years in prison. > >The case worries civil-rights lawyer Benson Wolman, who said it has >free-speech implications. > >"What you're saying is somebody can't, in essence, confess their fantasy >into a personal journal for fear they have socially unacceptable fantasies, >then ultimately they end up getting prosecuted,'' said Wolman, former >director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Ohio. > >"This is the only case that I know of where we are talking about a >journal -- just written words. It surprises and offends me that an action >should be brought based on a journal.'' > >But Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Brien called the case a "breakthrough'' >in the battle against child pornography. > >[...] > >"This is one of the first felony cases in Franklin County that involves the >written word -- a writing somebody created on their own,'' he said. > >"Even without passing it on to anyone else, he committed a felony.'' > >[...] From rotenberg at epic.org Thu Jul 5 08:34:54 2001 From: rotenberg at epic.org (Marc Rotenberg) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:34:54 -0400 Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010705112216.021106b0@mail.well.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010705112216.021106b0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a State has no business telling a man, sitting alone in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch. Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Stanley v. Georgia, 394 US 557, 566 (1969) (Marshall, J.) At 11:22 AM -0400 7/5/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[A followup to a cpunx thread, and a link to the statute.] > >>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:15:01 -0400 >>To: politech at politechbot.com >>From: Declan McCullagh >>Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal >>Cc: tdoulin at dispatch.com >> >>This is an unusual case. The Ohio law -- a 1970s version of which >>Politech member Bruce Taylor successfully defended before a federal >>appeals court -- applies not only to dirty pictures, but also to >>written material: >> >>http://www.moralityinmedia.org/obsclawlinks.htm#oh >>"No person, with knowledge of the character of the material or >>performance involved, shall do any of the following... Create, >>reproduce, or publish any obscene material that has a minor as one >>of its participants or portrayed observers... Buy, procure, >>possess, or control any obscene material, that has a minor as one >>of its participants..." >> >>Anyone who possesses such a visual or written description -- >>including a diary entry or an erotic story -- is guilty of a >>felony. That means Ohioans who have on their hard drive an >>"obscene" text file from alt.sex.stories are felons. >> >>Other coverage: >>http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-07-05/News_and_Views/Beyond_the_City >>/a-117267.asp >>http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/07/05/loc_tristate_a_m_report.html >> >>-Declan >> >>********* >> >>From: "Robert V. Zwink" >>To: >>Subject: Man's journal ruled obscene >>Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:24:08 -0400 >>Message-ID: >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> >>This is possibly one for your list. A 22-year old wrote extensively about >>his pedophile delusions in a daily personal journal. Law enforcement found >>the journal, today he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Seems he should >>be in an addiction clinic not a prison. The journal was never published. >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>From The Columbus Dispatch >>http://www.dispatch.com/news/news01/july01/755632.html >> >>Man's journal ruled obscene >> >>Wednesday, July 4, 2001 >> >>Tim Doulin >>Dispatch Staff Reporter >> >>Brian Dalton wrote fictitious tales of sexually abusing and torturing >>children in his private journal, intending that no one else see them, he >>said. >> >>But when his probation officer found the journal during a routine search of >>Dalton's Columbus home, prosecutors charged him with pandering obscenity >>involving a minor. >> >>In Franklin County Common Pleas Court yesterday, the 22-year-old man's >>written words cost him 10 years in prison. >> >>The case worries civil-rights lawyer Benson Wolman, who said it has >>free-speech implications. >> >>"What you're saying is somebody can't, in essence, confess their fantasy >>into a personal journal for fear they have socially unacceptable fantasies, >>then ultimately they end up getting prosecuted,'' said Wolman, former >>director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Ohio. >> >>"This is the only case that I know of where we are talking about a >>journal -- just written words. It surprises and offends me that an action >>should be brought based on a journal.'' >> >>But Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Brien called the case a "breakthrough'' >>in the battle against child pornography. >> >>[...] >> >>"This is one of the first felony cases in Franklin County that involves the >>written word -- a writing somebody created on their own,'' he said. >> >>"Even without passing it on to anyone else, he committed a felony.'' >> >>[...] From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 5 11:39:12 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:39:12 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: <3B444B0B.12812.84620F@localhost> Message-ID: jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Anyone who can be safely paroled, > should probably not have been > convicted. I don't see how that follows, but in any case, it is irrelevant to my point, that from the individual's point of view, parole is better than incarceration. > Parole is cheap way of punishing > decent people. Or guilty people for that matter. S a n d y From juicy at melontraffickers.com Thu Jul 5 11:54:55 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:54:55 -0700 Subject: Dropping out of the USA Message-ID: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the constitution. So my question is: where to go? I certainly don't want to leave behind all the neat toys in the US like widespread broadband internet access, massive bookstores, high paying tech jobs, etc. Is there any country that has the same technological benefits as the US without the government steadily encroaching into every sector of life? How does one 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become accustomed to? "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 08:57:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:57:50 -0400 Subject: Forbidden Knowledge (Banned Research, Part II) In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:23:02AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010705115750.B27848@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:23:02AM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > Not quite yet. People have gone to prison for *releasing* viruses, > not for *writing* them. Heck, I've written a dozen viruses myself, > and not one has ever been run on a machine I didn't reformat within > the week. An amusing pastime - not a crime. At least not yet. If it's illegal (under Goodlatte's bill) to distribute spam code, why not arguably more destructive viral code? After all, this congressional session is still young and there's plenty of time for them to get inventive. -Declan From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 02:59:40 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:59:40 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: ANN: TAZCon I, Sep. 1-Oct. 1, 2002 (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 22:31:32 -0500 From: Jeff Bone To: fork at xent.com Subject: ANN: TAZCon I, Sep. 1-Oct. 1, 2002 NoNewswire, 7/4/2000, Austin, TX: This is the first public non-announcement of TAZCon I, a non-conference devoted to autonomy in all its interpretations. TAZCon I will *not* be hosted in Austin from Sep. 1-Oct. 1, 2002, and is *not* open to any who wish to participate. There are no events planned, but if there were they would consist of BOFs, parties, and other events organized around the following, and any other conceivable, topics: privacy, IP law, organizational strategies against strategic monopolies and corporatocracies / hegemonies, legal remedies, illegal remedies, insurrection, subversion of existing political systems, co-option of existing political systems, bloodless revolution, public nudity, masked society, transparent society, Lockeian property rights, the 1st amendment, the 2nd amendment, the 4th amendment, colorblind law, genderless law, technology and the law, anti-trust in a network-effects context, post-modern economics, semiotics, competitive poetry, the arts, ontological terrorism, piss Christ, anti-collectivism, Linux, Zope and other Python development, asynchronous event notification, DNS alternatives, private ownership of ABC weapons, gray goo scenarios and how to prevent them, the ethics of AI, the GPL and other Open Source licenses, tribalism and antitribalism, anarchy, libertarianism, freedom, fairness, M$ alternatives in corporate IS infrastructure, censor-free networking, the sociodynamics of P2P networking, free speech, anonymity, strong contracts, strong drink, non-coercive social frameworks, and just about anything else. Anyone wishing *not* to host a particular topic, RFP, discussion, BOF, think-n-drink, theme rave, live music act, or other interesting event need not apply. (Boring events will be considered and summarily discarded.) Regardless, please *do not* contact the author, as I have nothing at all to do with this odious non-event. We will *not* take over the city of Austin, TX, for a month next year. Promise. Do not pass this message along to anyone, period. Peace, Love, and Evil Smileys, jb http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 02:59:40 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:59:40 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: ANN: TAZCon I, Sep. 1-Oct. 1, 2002 (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 22:31:32 -0500 From: Jeff Bone To: fork at xent.com Subject: ANN: TAZCon I, Sep. 1-Oct. 1, 2002 NoNewswire, 7/4/2000, Austin, TX: This is the first public non-announcement of TAZCon I, a non-conference devoted to autonomy in all its interpretations. TAZCon I will *not* be hosted in Austin from Sep. 1-Oct. 1, 2002, and is *not* open to any who wish to participate. There are no events planned, but if there were they would consist of BOFs, parties, and other events organized around the following, and any other conceivable, topics: privacy, IP law, organizational strategies against strategic monopolies and corporatocracies / hegemonies, legal remedies, illegal remedies, insurrection, subversion of existing political systems, co-option of existing political systems, bloodless revolution, public nudity, masked society, transparent society, Lockeian property rights, the 1st amendment, the 2nd amendment, the 4th amendment, colorblind law, genderless law, technology and the law, anti-trust in a network-effects context, post-modern economics, semiotics, competitive poetry, the arts, ontological terrorism, piss Christ, anti-collectivism, Linux, Zope and other Python development, asynchronous event notification, DNS alternatives, private ownership of ABC weapons, gray goo scenarios and how to prevent them, the ethics of AI, the GPL and other Open Source licenses, tribalism and antitribalism, anarchy, libertarianism, freedom, fairness, M$ alternatives in corporate IS infrastructure, censor-free networking, the sociodynamics of P2P networking, free speech, anonymity, strong contracts, strong drink, non-coercive social frameworks, and just about anything else. Anyone wishing *not* to host a particular topic, RFP, discussion, BOF, think-n-drink, theme rave, live music act, or other interesting event need not apply. (Boring events will be considered and summarily discarded.) Regardless, please *do not* contact the author, as I have nothing at all to do with this odious non-event. We will *not* take over the city of Austin, TX, for a month next year. Promise. Do not pass this message along to anyone, period. Peace, Love, and Evil Smileys, jb http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 03:11:01 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:11:01 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: Falun Gong, the Internet revolution (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 21:46:12 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Falun Gong, the Internet revolution >From: jod at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (James J. O'Donnell) >To: farber at cis.upenn.edu (Dave Farber) >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 21:32:16 -0400 (EDT) > > >Very interesting piece in the Times: > >http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/world/05FALU.html?pagewanted=all > >It reads like a chapter of *Neuromancer* at some points. > >Jim O'Donnell >Classics, U. of Penn >jod at ccat.sas.upenn.edu For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 03:11:01 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:11:01 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: Falun Gong, the Internet revolution (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 21:46:12 -0400 From: David Farber To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Falun Gong, the Internet revolution >From: jod at ccat.sas.upenn.edu (James J. O'Donnell) >To: farber at cis.upenn.edu (Dave Farber) >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 21:32:16 -0400 (EDT) > > >Very interesting piece in the Times: > >http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/world/05FALU.html?pagewanted=all > >It reads like a chapter of *Neuromancer* at some points. > >Jim O'Donnell >Classics, U. of Penn >jod at ccat.sas.upenn.edu For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 5 12:16:06 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:16:06 -0700 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: "A. Melon" wrote: > ...it seems the best options are > to simply leave the country.... > So my question is: where to go? > I certainly don't want to leave > behind all the neat toys in the > US like widespread broadband > internet access... StarBand (http://starband.com/) is expanding internationally. It will soon be available in Latin America, for example. Plus, broadband is available in many countries already. > ...massive bookstores... Amazon.com, plus massive bookstores are fairly common outside the US. Even Singapore has its MPH chain of bookstores. ...high paying tech jobs... You ARE telecommuting already, right? I have a friend who lives on a private island in Florida. He collects Silicon Valley wages while having a rural cost of living. There are extreme telecommuters working out of Bali. S a n d y From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 5 11:21:01 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:21:01 -0500 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Lone Ranger also wore a black mask. He also rode the same horse, hung around the same Indian, and manifested repetitive behavior patterns. I don't think he really fooled anybody. The FBI and PO-lice aren't the only ones interested in anarchists. ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Anonymous Coredump > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:46 AM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual > > > http://www.iprimus.ca/~dawnone/bbloc.htm > ----- > > excerpt: > > THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all > black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, > and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black > bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black. A black bloc requires > that people stay tight and stay alert. In Cincinnati, we did very well > with this idea. People (for the most part) stayed tight and alert, and > there were very few instances where gaps became a problem. In DC (IMF > Protests), this was a *huge* problem. The Bloc was very loose, and a lot > of times, it seemed like people were not alert to what was going on. > This luckily didn't turn too ugly, but if the cops didn't have their > heads so far up their ass, they could have used that opportunity to > divide us and make mass arrests. We cannot allow any opportunity for > them to do that, an injury to one is an injury to all, remember. > > BLACK BLOC ATTIRE Seattle was probably the most effective Black Bloc > we've seen in this country, and yet there was one glaring mistake that > the Black Bloc made. Their black bloc attire wasn't exactly anonymous. > It all boils down to this: Wearing a bandanna doesn't mean much if you > have blue hair and a huge "Aus Rotten" patch on your back. Part of the > purpose of a Black Bloc is to provide anonymity for it's members. You > are not doing yourself or your comrades any service by dressing in a > distinct way. Individuality is great and all, but sometimes it's okay to > ditch it for a few hours in order to avoid jail time. Cincinnati was > definitely better in this regard, but in order for a Black Bloc to truly > be effective, then that means that we should dress appropriately. This > means, black jeans or pants, black hooded sweatshirt, black shoes, and, > if necessary, plain black jackets. Face masks should be plain black, > whether bandannas or ski masks. Most black bandannas that are purchased > are black and white. This is not good. You're better off just cutting a > piece of plain black cloth into a bandanna shape.As the police and the > FBI learn more about anarchist culture, they're going to become much > better at singling people out based on patches or clothing. They didn't > have much experience with it in Seattle, which is why people were able > to get away with wearing patch-pants or other distinctive outfits, but > rest assured that they're getting better at it, which means that we're > going to have to get better at dressing properly. From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 5 13:30:06 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:30:06 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sampo Syreeni wrote: > The difference is that most of > the people around here seem to > be arguing from the societal > point of view. (Cheap) parole, > even if sheer bliss for the > felon, is a bad thing when > thought about with due respect > to what it does to whole > communities. Yes, that's correct. I am arguing against that collectivist viewpoint. It's the individual's suffering I'm most concerned with. I think it would be great to reform the whole shebang; let's do it, but let's not put the cart before the horse and harm the individual "for the greater good." Yeah, laws are tough to repeal, but that's where our efforts need to be placed, not on some indirect, "we'll really make it costly for the state" approach. Of course, as Cypherpunks we REALLY should be thinking how to make the laws irrelevant. And for what it's worth, that comes easier when we are dealing with someone who is relatively freer due to being on parole. Now let's put some Cypherpunk brain power towards those tattletale ankle transponders... S a n d y From account at acm.org Thu Jul 5 10:44:54 2001 From: account at acm.org (account at acm.org) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 13:44:54 -0400 Subject: Your ACM Web Account URL Message-ID: <00e3f4845170571KURTZ@maint4.acm.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 982 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 10:48:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:48:22 -0400 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:36:38PM +0200 References: Message-ID: <20010705134822.C29575@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:36:38PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > (Echelon is surely using these on targeted emails), gait and mannerisms > (not even in development, but sure to arrive some day). I sent a freelance reporter to a conference and edited her story that described NSA-funded research designed to do gait recognition, recognizing someone by the way they walk. See the Wired archives. -Declan From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Thu Jul 5 12:08:59 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:08:59 -0500 Subject: Sony's PlayStation 2: The 'Ultimate Weapon'? Message-ID: <007701c10585$f2599170$03d36b3f@pacer.com> I thought this was interesting... Jon Beets Pacer Communications -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 430 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Thu Jul 5 14:19:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:19:03 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:30 PM -0700 7/5/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Sampo Syreeni wrote: > >> The difference is that most of >> the people around here seem to >> be arguing from the societal >> point of view. (Cheap) parole, >> even if sheer bliss for the >> felon, is a bad thing when >> thought about with due respect >> to what it does to whole >> communities. > >Yes, that's correct. I am arguing against that collectivist viewpoint. Oh, puh-leeeze! My argument is not a collectivist viewpoint. It's just like any argument that drug laws are bad. (Being one of those who doesn't use drugs, and who never has, honest!, is any argument from me that drugs should not be illegal a "collectivist viewpoint"?) Ditto for thousands of other examples where the societal and legal and ethical implications dominate. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Jul 5 11:49:07 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:49:07 -0400 Subject: Declan misses the mark on ecash In-Reply-To: <20010614153303.D4202@cluebot.com>; from Declan McCullagh on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:33:03PM -0400 References: <20010614190021.32578.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20010614153303.D4202@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net> A little behind on mail, but I figure some of this is sufficiently misleading to dig up again: On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:33:03PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:00:21PM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > > It is a botched attempt to describe the "cut and choose" mechanism. > > Right, it was an attempt to describe "cut and choose" in three > sentences or so. It's a news article, not a technical paper. Deal. The point is Chaums ecash never did deploy cut and choose. So whether the description of cut and choose was unclear or not it was irrelevant, and confused to describe it at all. > > The article also contains a recap of the Chaum/Brands patent wars. > > It would have been more interesting if there were some reference > > to new approaches to ecash that avoid the patents, such as the > > Lucre software by Ben Laurie, based on David Wagner's blinding > > (http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/ > > The point of that section of the article was to talk about available > patents. Wagner's scheme appears to reply on Chaum's (original) > patents, so it wasn't relevant. According to who? You? Care to elaborate on your thinking? So far your analysis of the patent discussion around Wagner's scheme looks like just spurious uninformed dismisive comments. The point of Wagner's scheme is that it is not a blind signature but a MAC coupled with a zero-knowledge proof of non-coin marking. I'd say it's more accurate to say it's not clear whether it is covered by something in the patent minefield or not. There was a comment on dbs list that a lawyer at berkeley had offered the opinion that it was not. Chaum offers the opinion that it is covered by his blind signature patents. I find that unlikely as it is not a signature as it fails one of the main aspects of a signature -- that there is something that is verifiable by the holder and usually others relating to some message. There are of course other opinions also, but I find your dismissive comments misleading. Also this comment : > appears to be unpatented." Right. Whatever. > You can take that anonymous claim to the bank. I don't think anyone was claiming you would proceed in any patented area without legal advise. I don't think anonymous comments should hold less weight. Yet you were presuming to dismiss Wagner's approach as clearly covered by patents which appears to be an uninformed and probably incorrect opinion. Adam From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 5 12:01:36 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:01:36 -0400 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: > From: Aimee Farr[SMTP:aimee.farr at pobox.com] > > > The Lone Ranger also wore a black mask. He also rode the same horse, hung > around the same Indian, and manifested repetitive behavior patterns. I > don't > think he really fooled anybody. > > The FBI and PO-lice aren't the only ones interested in anarchists. > > ~Aimee > Duh. The Lone Ranger was interested in establishing an individual, persistant nym, unlinked a known person, not total anonymity. These 'blackbloc' vandals want to create confusion about which one of them commits which crime, thus using their Constitutional protections to protect them from successful prosecution. In a similar move, cops cover up their badge numbers when they plan to violate people's civil rights. Of course, this mechanism is very weak in the face of a reputation attack - an Agent Provocateur or a whole bloc of APs could easily destroy the credibility of the the blackbloc technique. Different goals, different methods. Peter Trei From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 06:09:33 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:09:33 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010705054332.0080a7e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > Parking tickets? Go to the local cop/FBI site, download the > *Wanted* pix, fab a mask, have fun. Hmm. It might work for the current generation of cams, but not for stuff which actually measures the face topography. And, of course, you can't hide the other biometrics. It seems, even plastic surgery has its limits. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 06:09:33 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:09:33 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010705054332.0080a7e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > Parking tickets? Go to the local cop/FBI site, download the > *Wanted* pix, fab a mask, have fun. Hmm. It might work for the current generation of cams, but not for stuff which actually measures the face topography. And, of course, you can't hide the other biometrics. It seems, even plastic surgery has its limits. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Thu Jul 5 13:15:28 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:15:28 -0500 Subject: Sony's PlayStation 2: The 'Ultimate Weapon'? References: <007701c10585$f2599170$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <022b01c1058f$3c203350$03d36b3f@pacer.com> It would probably be even more interesting if there was a link provided... LOL Sorry about that.. Here it is... http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/11736.html Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Beets To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: Sony's PlayStation 2: The 'Ultimate Weapon'? I thought this was interesting... Jon Beets Pacer Communications -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1721 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 12:28:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:28:09 -0400 Subject: Declan misses the mark on ecash In-Reply-To: <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:49:07PM -0400 References: <20010614190021.32578.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20010614153303.D4202@cluebot.com> <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <20010705152809.A31598@cluebot.com> Anonymous comments like the ones I dismissed can be dismissed easily enough. I never said the approach was "clearly covered," but I suspect it is probably covered. If you can point me to authority to the contrary, I would be delighted to read it. I suspect you can't. -Declan On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:49:07PM -0400, Adam Back wrote: > I don't think anyone was claiming you would proceed in any patented > area without legal advise. I don't think anonymous comments should > hold less weight. Yet you were presuming to dismiss Wagner's approach > as clearly covered by patents which appears to be an uninformed and > probably incorrect opinion. > > Adam From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 5 14:06:08 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:06:08 -0500 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Of course, this mechanism is very weak in the face of a > reputation attack - an Agent Provocateur or a whole bloc > of APs could easily destroy the credibility of the the > blackbloc technique. > > > Peter Trei Duh. :) No, my reference to the Lone Ranger mask was in regard to the fact it wasn't really effective concealment. Some of these groups have attracted the attention of sophisticated *private* interests. ~Aimee From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Jul 5 13:10:12 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:10:12 -0400 Subject: Declan misses the mark on ecash In-Reply-To: <20010705152809.A31598@cluebot.com>; from Declan McCullagh on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:28:09PM -0400 References: <20010614190021.32578.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20010614153303.D4202@cluebot.com> <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net> <20010705152809.A31598@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010705161012.A8485@economists.cryptohill.net> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:28:09PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I never said the approach was "clearly covered," but I suspect it is > probably covered. I am not sure why you suspect it is covered by Chaum's patents. You said in response to anonymous and I quote: | Wagner's scheme appears to reply on Chaum's (original) patents, so it | wasn't relevant. I explained to you in the post you are replying to why I don't think this claim is accurate. Wagner's scheme was designed explicitly to avoid being covered by Chaum's patents by people who have read Chaum's patents. Wagner's scheme is clearly not a signature, blind or otherwise. > If you can point me to authority to the contrary, I would be delighted to > read it. I suspect you can't. I have not personally asked a lawyer for an opinion. Neither have you I take it. This was why I suggested "unclear" was a better description of the current understanding than "appears to rely on Chaum's patents" which you appear to have made up. Perhaps the berkeley lawyers opinion could be tracked down? Adam From juicy at melontraffickers.com Thu Jul 5 16:27:06 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:27:06 -0700 Subject: Eli Lilly makes Prozac patients email addresses public. Message-ID: Hundreds of patients had signed up at a Lilly Web site for an automated e-mail reminding them to take their dose of the antidepressant. Lilly spokesman Jeff Newton said a message sent June 27 announcing the end of the service mistakenly included the e-mail addresses of all the subscribers in the message header. [...] http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/07/05/lilly.privacy.ap/index.html From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Jul 5 13:43:32 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Colorado to use facial recognition Message-ID: <200107052043.QAA10700@www9.aa.psiweb.com> In a slightly confused report, HNN said the state of Colorado would start using facial recognition software in a year. "Mainly to prevent duplicate driver's license issuances." "Where the cameras will be placed is secret." Well, if you were going to check for license dups, you'd use it in the DMV after taking the picture of the person wanting a license. If anyone finds a less confused report on this, please post. ---- (As previously posted to the list.) http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,28793,00.html # # Man Gets Ten Years in Prison for Pornographic Diary Entries # # An Ohio man has been sentenced to 10 years in prison after writing # fictitious stories about torturing and sexually abusing young # children. [snip] # # Still, Dalton was guilty of pandering obscenity because he "did # create, reproduce or publish any obscene material that has a # minor as one of its participants or portrayed observers," the # indictment said. # # "Even without passing it on to anyone else, he committed a # felony," Domis said. # # Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Brien called the case a # "breakthrough" in the battle against child pornography. Well, isn't that special. Thought crime in the first degree. Use google to search for: "erotic adventures of the brady bunch" 15 The Erotic Adventures of the Brady Bunch 16 [snip of 62 lines] 18 19 Bobby and Cindy were 14. While both had masturbated, neither was 20 really sure what sex was all about. That's why they were hiding in the 21 closet in Marcia's room. They had watched everything Greg and Marcia 22 had done, and were more than ready to give it a try. Bobby's almost 23 hairless cock had gotten hard before Greg had even mounted Marcia, and 24 it was still hard. Cindy's virgin pussy was so wet her panties were 25 soaked. As soon as Marcia and Greg were gone, they rushed out of the 26 closet and fell onto the bed. They had stripped while they watched, 27 but were too afraid of making noise to do anything. 28 29 Bobby pulled Cindy close, kissed her eyes and mouth the way he'd seen 30 Greg kiss Marcia. He moved down to Cindy's tiny, barely bulging 31 titties and began to lick and suck the nipples. They hardened even 32 more, which surprised him. He hadn't known that would happen. 33 34 Cindy held Bobby's cock gently. It was her first, and she wasn't sure 35 it wouldn't break. Bobby covered her hand with his and squeezed, then 36 stroked his shaft, showing her how to jack his dick. She stroked it a 37 few times on her own, liking the way it felt in her hand. 38 39 They skipped the rest of the foreplay they had seen. Both were eager 40 to fuck. But Cindy was a virgin, and they both knew a girls first fuck 41 could be painful. Cindy liked Bobby, trusted him, wanted him to be her 42 first. She lay on her back, her face framed by blond curls, her 43 lightly haired snatch a slightly darker blonde. She spread her legs 44 wide, fingered herself for a moment, letting Bobby look at her 45 pussy. Bobby stretched out above her, his knees between her legs, his 46 arms supporting his weight, his young, hard cock touching her 47 belly. Cindy took hold of his tool, guided it to her cunt, helped him 48 enter her. He entered slowly, stopping when Cindy flinched. He started 49 to backup, not wanting to hurt her. She grabbed his ass with both 50 hands, pulled him hard towards herself, felt a tearing pain in her 51 cunt. She buried her face in his shoulder, stifling a scream. She 52 told him not to move, told him that she had been told the pain would 53 go away in a few minutes. 54 [snip of 705 lines] And that's Google's WWW search. Then there's their Usenet search... From jya at pipeline.com Thu Jul 5 17:08:26 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:08:26 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200107052108.RAA18544@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Sandy proposes: >Now let's put some Cypherpunk brain power towards those >tattletale ankle transponders... What are other technological devices used to track parolees? Are there any limits on what can be used? Is the parolee less subject to pan-surveillance than the prisoner? Or is the parolee subject to greater surveillance than the prisoner due to being outside physical enclosure? The use of parolees as snitches is another issue, as with citizens who greatly fear prison, even more so the threat of prison, even more than that being seen as inadvertently swept up in an operation that lumps all in a heap. Pre-emptive ass-saving snitching by anyone subject to fear of authoritarian punishment: before and after a subpoena arrives, before and after a grand jury appearance, before and after appearing as a witness, before and after being named as an unindicted co-conspirator, before anda fter being named indiscriminately diffusely as a participant in an activity the government chooses to suspect of planning something that might become a chargeable offense which warrants pre-emptive spying and gathering pre-evidence by pre-legal means against those who need to watched closely, with purposeful clues left and rumors dropped to maximum self-policing effect. Did I leave anyone out the realm of suspicion which may well induce running to officials to relieve anxiety with a tale to tell? Even fabricating such tales if that pleasures the protectors ever able to spot a snitch aching to clear the record. A tall tale such as this one -- but how to tell who's quietly transponding beneath cover of technological simulators. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 5 17:26:51 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:26:51 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010705172651.0081aac0@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:30 PM 7/5/01 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >with someone who is relatively freer due to being on parole. Now let's put >some Cypherpunk brain power towards those tattletale ankle transponders... "Search the archives" for discussions about assuring that your server hasn't been moved. In the anklet case, you play the opposite role. dh From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 5 17:49:54 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:49:54 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Using GPS To Catch Speeders Found Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010705021642.A12123@cluebot.com> References: <20010704221121.A6210@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010705174352.04821008@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:16 AM 7/5/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:42:48PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > If the auto vendor was really concerned about their vehicle they'd install > > a govenor (like they did on the '64 1/2 Mustand for example) that would > > limit the RPM's of the engine. Quick, easy, simple. A lot(!!!) less > > expensive (about $20) and more reliable than a GPS receiver. > >Then you'd risk spurious lawsuits from someone who can't accelerate >to get out of an accident situation, and you'd also lose the source of >income you might get from all these speeding tickets you as the >renter would levy. I wonder how significant such GPS-based levies would influence the basic business model and competitiveness of an auto rental company. At first be might be used as a tactical revenue source to enable lower basic rates and attract new business, with the scofflaws paying for the difference between competitor's market rates and the lower rates afforded by the levies. Later, it might evolve into a sustainable advantage as those most likely to pay the levies avoid the agency the remaining customers may very well be much safer drivers enabling lower insurance premiums and costs of operation steve From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 5 17:56:51 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:56:51 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <20010705202231.A5886@cluebot.com> References: <20010705190827.B31247@positron.mit.edu> <20010705190827.B31247@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010705175158.04825ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:22 PM 7/5/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Ah, I found the article: > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38775,00.html >September 15, 2000 > >-Declan > > >On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 07:08:27PM -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > I sent a freelance reporter to a conference and edited her story > > > that described NSA-funded research designed to do gait recognition, > > > recognizing someone by the way they walk. > > > > Time to dig out those "Ministry of Silly Walks" episodes. :-) Reminds me of Kevin Spacey's extraordinary performance in "The Usual Suspects." I suspect this technology could be defeated simply by placing a small, uncomfortable, stone in you shoe, in much the same way others have reportedly thwarted polygraph tests using a tack in the shoe to mess up biometric baseline comparisons. steve From JanisC14 at excite.com Thu Jul 5 18:02:13 2001 From: JanisC14 at excite.com (JanisC14 at excite.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:02:13 Subject: It's all up to you! Message-ID: <248.483544.585218@server02> THIS IS THE ONLY TIME YOU WILL GET THIS E-MAIL FROM US. TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND SEE A WAY TO CHANGE YOUR LIFESTYLE!!.... 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We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER AND NAME ONLY... * Always send $5 cash (US currency only) for each report * Checks NOT accepted * Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. *On one of those sheets of paper, write: a. The Name and Number of the report that you are ordering b. Your e-mail address and c. Your name and postal address. (In case of e-mail difficulties) PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: REPORT #1 "THE INSIDER'S GUIDE TO ADVERTISING FREE ON THE NET" Order #1 from: D. James P.O. 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There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ========================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ================================================ ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ================================================= ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York,N.Y. ================================================== ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand =================================================== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ==================================================== About 50,000 new people get online every month! _______________________________________________________ FOR YOUR INFORMATION....If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. For automated removal and or comments/complaints >>>>JanisC14 at excite.com You will be automatically removed from the current list and any future lists. From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 15:29:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:29:18 -0400 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:30:06PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010705182918.A4633@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:30:06PM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Yes, that's correct. I am arguing against that collectivist viewpoint. > It's the individual's suffering I'm most concerned with. I think it would I haven't followed this discussion closely, and I am sympathetic to the position that far too many non-violent activities are crimes. But if someone is a violent offender, I don't see why we should be concerned at all with their "suffering" in prison. We can argue about mandatory minimums, rehabilitation, and whether violent crimes should be state or federal offenses, but my instinct is to say I'd far rather see violent criminals behind bars than on parole. Right? Or am I just going collectivist-conservative in my advancing old age? -Declan From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 5 09:36:38 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:36:38 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best > correlation features. There are a billion: skin pigmentation as seen in NIR illumination (my, do you look spotty), NIR laser scanning of body features (MEMS mirror galvanometers), including millimeter wave which penetrates clothing (in development still), voice fingerprint, person-specific word patterns (Echelon is surely using these on targeted emails), gait and mannerisms (not even in development, but sure to arrive some day). The only way to avoid radiating a fingerprint is to use anonymized teleoperated hardware as meatspace proxy. And of course you can outlaw these, unless teleoperated robotics becomes very common in the next few decades (possible, but I'm not counting on it). > Of course, to measure ear shape the camera has to have a good view, > unobscured and at close enough range to get a decent number of > pixels. (This makes sense, that ear shape would be a good metric. Sure there are limitations to the current state of technology. The biometrics are of lousy quality, take seconds to compute on a ~GHz CPU, and are not generated in an embedded device. Nevertheless, imaging technology makes good progress with embedding DSP cores and using hybrid architectures based on silicon retina technologies as pioneered by Mead. Because this is machine vision used on moving objects, it can tolerate dead pixels, allowing you to boost resolution (Information in a 640x480 30 fps is sure limited, but with CMOS tech like http://www.foveon.net/tech_f16.html and tolerance of ~5% dead pixels multimegapixel sensors plus active optics for tracking and feature extraction with parallel DSP cores integrated into the sensor you capture a lot of info, and process it in situ, too). As soon as the devices become sufficiently cheap you can integrate them into virtually anything (installation costs typically dwarf hardware costs), including street signs (OCR to read license plates is almost mature), lanterns, copers' wearables, etc. The extracted biometric alone is tiny, and can be readily transmitted using even current paltry 9.6 kBps wireless modems. > I've been noticing the variations in ear shapes since I heard about > this scheme. Also, I can imagine the various conformal > transformations--different angles of view, for example--preserve > certain relationships well.) > > I can believe some kind of automated face recognition is being done > with points of entry, such as international airport arrival points, > but I find it hard to swallow that "crowd shots" from overhead > cameras can do anything meaningful. With current tech the error rate is still high, but it's for real. The hardware is going to become better due to Moore alone, including silicon retina dedicated hardware, the economies of scale will apply, and of course the software will get better, so the capabilities will be ramping up very rapidly over the next few years. > The Tampa action may be mostly social engineering: "We're watching you!" Wehret den Anfaengen. The capabilities are still mostly vapour, and the coverage still spotty, but exponential processes have their counterintuitive dynamics. Twenty years more of those, and you'll be very, very surprised. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net Thu Jul 5 09:46:18 2001 From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:46:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: http://www.iprimus.ca/~dawnone/bbloc.htm ----- excerpt: THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black. A black bloc requires that people stay tight and stay alert. In Cincinnati, we did very well with this idea. People (for the most part) stayed tight and alert, and there were very few instances where gaps became a problem. In DC (IMF Protests), this was a *huge* problem. The Bloc was very loose, and a lot of times, it seemed like people were not alert to what was going on. This luckily didn't turn too ugly, but if the cops didn't have their heads so far up their ass, they could have used that opportunity to divide us and make mass arrests. We cannot allow any opportunity for them to do that, an injury to one is an injury to all, remember. BLACK BLOC ATTIRE Seattle was probably the most effective Black Bloc we've seen in this country, and yet there was one glaring mistake that the Black Bloc made. Their black bloc attire wasn't exactly anonymous. It all boils down to this: Wearing a bandanna doesn't mean much if you have blue hair and a huge "Aus Rotten" patch on your back. Part of the purpose of a Black Bloc is to provide anonymity for it's members. You are not doing yourself or your comrades any service by dressing in a distinct way. Individuality is great and all, but sometimes it's okay to ditch it for a few hours in order to avoid jail time. Cincinnati was definitely better in this regard, but in order for a Black Bloc to truly be effective, then that means that we should dress appropriately. This means, black jeans or pants, black hooded sweatshirt, black shoes, and, if necessary, plain black jackets. Face masks should be plain black, whether bandannas or ski masks. Most black bandannas that are purchased are black and white. This is not good. You're better off just cutting a piece of plain black cloth into a bandanna shape.As the police and the FBI learn more about anarchist culture, they're going to become much better at singling people out based on patches or clothing. They didn't have much experience with it in Seattle, which is why people were able to get away with wearing patch-pants or other distinctive outfits, but rest assured that they're getting better at it, which means that we're going to have to get better at dressing properly. From res02mg1 at gte.net Thu Jul 5 15:56:22 2001 From: res02mg1 at gte.net (David C. Dickson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:56:22 -0400 Subject: Network and Info Systems Security Training Conference - Wash DC, 16 July 2001 Message-ID: <217852001745225622140@EAGLE> To: CYPHERPUNKS at TOAD.COM NEW SPEAKERS ADDED PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO YOUR MANAGER OF SYSTEMS SECURITY, TRENDS, AND SECURITY TECHNOLOGIES GROUP. Market*Access International is proud to present .... NETWORK AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS SECURITY - TRAINING CONFERENCE AGENCY INTRUSION DETECTION REQUIREMENTS and TECHNOLOGY SOLUTIONS Date: July 16, 2001 Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington D.C. Atrium Ballroom Time: 7:30 AM Registration and Continental Breakfast Program Starts: 8:30 AM Wrap-up: 4:15 PM About this Conference: As government becomes more dependent on e-business, databases, information storehouses, mission critical information storage and information sharing, new risks are posed. These risks may come from student hackers, foreign governments or foreign military, terrorist organizations or even internal users. With the new e-Government applications and communications, computer security has emerged as a top issue and challenge. This conference will highlight the risks, opportunities and innovative management and technical approaches to the detection and response to unauthorized intrusions into agency data. The conference will focus on business and military applications and agency plans and programs for securing these applications. A highlight of this conference will be a section on AGENCY REQUIREMENTS AND NEW TECHNOLOGIES and strategies of coping with unauthorized attempts to compromise agency and DoD systems and data. SPEAKERS WILL REPRESENT THE FOLLOWING AGENCIES/COMPANIES: Navy NMCI 嚙 Mark Lavoie 嚙 Communications Officer, CDR, USNR PEO IT (Program Executive Office of Information Technology). Department of Transportation - Bonnie Fisher 嚙 Director, TASC Millennium Solutions Center National Science Foundation - Dara Murry 嚙 Director, ADP Security FBI - James Burrell 嚙 Acting Unit Chief, Computer Investigation Unit DARPA - Jim Webster 嚙 Manager, Information Assurance Office GSA/FedCIRC - Larry Hale 嚙 Liaison Director, Federal Computer Incident Response Center DOJ 嚙 TBD DISA 嚙 TBD Gartner 嚙 Keynote 嚙 TBD Guardant 嚙 Robert Lee 嚙 Director, Senior Principal Consultant Global Integrity - Errol Weiss, Bill Morgan Verizon, Federal Network Systems - Char Sample 嚙 Raytheon 嚙 Barton Abbott 嚙 Director, Information Assurance, Navy /USMC Intranet, Information Strike Force Symantec - TBD For more information on speakers and the conference agenda, please visit our web site at www.marketaccess.org. Who should attend: * Agency IT Executives, Managers, and Staff * Agency Security Executives, Managers and Staff * Agency information systems program managers * Agency Telecommunications Executives, Managers and Staff * Tele-work and Telecomm Directors, Managers, and Staff * Functional area managers * Systems integrators that support federal agency security requirements * Hardware and software solutions providers What you will learn: * Agency plans, programs and priorities * Successes and Lessons learned * Innovative government intrusion detection security approaches and applications * New technologies and strategies - what is on the drawing boards * How the military approaches network security and intrusion detection * Security of remote database management * How to structure intrusion detection solutions * Risks, sources of attacks... the internal risk * Commercial and government best practices Corporate Sponsors: * Symantec * Verizon * Market*Access .... others to be announced Organizational Sponsors: * Department of Transportation * INPUT Government ....other sponsors to be announced. Please register early. The conference area has limited seating available and we anticipate a sell out. Points of Contact: * For technical support with this web site, please contact Mr. Parrish Knight, 703/807-2748 * For general information about this event, please contact Ms. Kristen Brooks, 703/807-2745 * For information on sponsorship opportunities & exhibitor arrangements, please contact Ms. Cara Lombardi at 703/807-2743 The registration fee for this important training conference is: * Government Credit Card or Check in Advance: $395 * Government Training Forms/Invoice: $445 * Industry and Federal Contractors, Payment in Advance: $595 * Industry and Federal Contractors/Invoice: $645 We accept government training forms and government and commercial credit cards (VISA, MC, American Express). Options: [1] Phone: 703-807-2745 and speak with Ms. Kristen Brooks. [2] Email: kbrooks at marketaccess.org [3] Register online: Use our online booking form to register and pay by credit card electronically. To register, go to www.marketaccess.org. [4] Fax: registration form to 301-652-0914. [5] Mail: registration form to: Market*Access International, Inc. 4301 Wilson Blvd. #1003 Arlington, VA 22203 Sponsorships Available! For sponsorship information, please contact: Cara Lombardi Market*Access International 4301 Wilson Blvd. #1003 Arlington, VA 22203 Phone (703) 807-2743 Fax (703) 807-2728 clombardi at marketaccess.org If you wish to be REMOVED from this list, please REPLY and place REMOVE in the SUBJECT line. Thank you From yilmaz_yunus at hotmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:05:47 2001 From: yilmaz_yunus at hotmail.com (yunus) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:05:47 +0300 Subject: No subject Message-ID: hi i have a laptop which has toshiba 8 x dvd and it was locked region what can i do can you help me please thanks -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 614 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rsw at MIT.EDU Thu Jul 5 16:08:27 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:08:27 -0400 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <20010705134822.C29575@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:48:22PM -0400 References: <20010705134822.C29575@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010705190827.B31247@positron.mit.edu> Declan McCullagh wrote: > I sent a freelance reporter to a conference and edited her story > that described NSA-funded research designed to do gait recognition, > recognizing someone by the way they walk. Time to dig out those "Ministry of Silly Walks" episodes. :-) -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From gambliel at corp.earthlink.net Thu Jul 5 16:12:05 2001 From: gambliel at corp.earthlink.net (gambliel at corp.earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unsubscribe? (010705-20934097) Message-ID: <200107052312.TAA29083@mail.mindspring.com> how do you unsubscribe from this list? From PaulMerrill at acm.org Thu Jul 5 16:13:31 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 19:13:31 -0400 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? References: <20010705182918.A4633@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B44F49B.4DC23861@ACM.Org> There are two aspects which need to be considered. 1. Rehabilitation must be a goal that is worked toward, else we will need to give life sentences to all participants in every bar brawl, for where would we place the line over which one shan't cross. 2. Scaled punishment is necessary, else one may as well kill as punch. Rapists may as well kill the victim - no witnesses, etc. Between the two, "violent offended" becomes too vague a grouping. PHM Declan McCullagh wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 01:30:06PM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > Yes, that's correct. I am arguing against that collectivist viewpoint. > > It's the individual's suffering I'm most concerned with. I think it would > > I haven't followed this discussion closely, and I am sympathetic to > the position that far too many non-violent activities are crimes. But if > someone is a violent offender, I don't see why we should be concerned > at all with their "suffering" in prison. > > We can argue about mandatory minimums, rehabilitation, and whether > violent crimes should be state or federal offenses, but my instinct is > to say I'd far rather see violent criminals behind bars than on parole. > Right? > > Or am I just going collectivist-conservative in my advancing old age? > > -Declan -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 17:19:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:19:05 -0400 Subject: Liberal groups organize Congressional "Net-accountability" forum Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010705201748.02465ec0@mail.well.com> 7/10 State of the Net Forum : "Toward a Framework for Internet Accountability" 繚 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:28:14 -0400 繚 To: update at cdt.org 繚 Subject: 7/10 State of the Net Forum : "Toward a Framework for Internet Accountability" 繚 From: ari at cdt.org You are cordially invited to a luncheon discussion "Toward a Framework for Internet Accountability", Tuesday, July 10 beginning at 12:00 noon. This event, hosted by the Internet Education Foundation (IEF), will explore the Markle Foundation's new study, "Toward a Framework for Internet \Accountability." The study, to be released Tuesday morning, finds that at a time of intense debate over key Internet policy Americans are enthusiastic about the Internet, but that they are eager to have new forms of public, private, and non-profit governance of the Internet in order to give them more protection and control when they go online. WHAT: "Toward a Framework for Internet Accountability", IEF State of the Net Series WHO: Zoe Baird, Markle Foundation Stan Greenberg, Greenberg, Quinlan, and Rosner Research with appearances by Leaders of the Internet Caucus WHERE: Reserve Officers Association One Constitution Ave, NE, Across from Dirksen Senate Office Building WHEN: Tuesday, July 10, from 12 NOON to 1:30 pm (Lunch served) RSVP: If planning to attend RSVP at neted.org or via phone to Danielle 202-638-4370. About the State of the Net Series "Toward a Framework for Internet Accountability" is the second in a series of discussions on the "State of the Net" hosted by IEF. The "State of the Net" project seeks to examine the policy and governance framework needed to assure that the Internet reaches its fullest commercial, communications and democratic potential. IEF believes that an assessment of the "State of the Net" is long overdue. The goal of the project is to take a "snapshot" of where we are in the development of the Internet. This snapshot will serve as a benchmark for measuring progress or lack thereof - in Internet policy. More information about "The State of the Net" project can be found at http://www.Stateofthe.Net About the Markle Foundation The Markle Foundation works to realize the potential of emerging communications media and information technology to improve people's lives and recently unveiled a new program focus and $100 million commitment to do so. The foundation's work is focused in three primary areas: Policy for a Networked Society, Interactive Media for Children, and Information Technologies for Better Health. Markle pursues its goals through a range of activities including analysis, research, public information and the development of innovative media products and services. The foundation creates and operates many of its own projects-using not only grants but also investments and strategic alliances with non-profits and businesses. More information on the Markle Foundation can be found at www.markle.org. About the Internet Education Foundation The Internet Education Foundation (IEF) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to educating the public and policymakers about the potential of a decentralized global Internet to promote democracy, communications, and commerce. Since its founding in 1997, IEF has worked on many educational projects including the Congressional Internet Caucus Advisory Committee. IEF contributes the staffing, coordination, and funding for the Internet Caucus Advisory Committee administration, Web sites, publications and events. IEF also developed and hosts the GetNetWise child online safety campaign to help assure that children have safe and rewarding experiences online. IEF is located at http://www.NetEd.org. ---------------------------------- CDT Update Subscription Information E-mail questions, comments, or requests to subscribe or unsubscribe to ari at cdt.org or call (202) 637-9800. Detailed information about online civil liberties issues may be found at http://www.cdt.org/ ----------------------------------- Ari Schwartz Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20006 202 637 9800 fax 202 637 0968 ari at cdt.org http://www.cdt.org ----------------------------------- From njohnson at interl.net Thu Jul 5 18:22:30 2001 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:22:30 -0500 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <3.0.6.32.20010704202956.00808880@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <013d01c105ba$215ec740$e865a13f@moms> In Iowa, it is illegal to tint your windshield, and side and rear windows can only be tinted to a certain percent (They police have devices to measure opacity). The reasoning is that cops need to be able to see the driver's face for identification and when stopping a car to see if you are pulling a gun on them. -Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Honig" To: "petro" ; Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 10:29 PM Subject: CDR: Re: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th > At 06:44 PM 7/3/01 -0700, petro wrote: > >>Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does > >>raise questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their > >>observation while in public. After all one is permitted tinted > >>windows on autos. Despite certain > > > > Not everywhere, and even then not all windows. > > Forget windows. Noone tells bimbos to remove wigs, facepaint, sunglasses, > gloves, various subdermal implants. You can, of course, *observe* them, but > you can't force them to reveal (flash to Planet of the Apes sequel) their > *true face*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From declan at well.com Thu Jul 5 17:22:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:22:31 -0400 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: <20010705190827.B31247@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@mit.edu on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 07:08:27PM -0400 References: <20010705190827.B31247@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010705202231.A5886@cluebot.com> Ah, I found the article: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38775,00.html September 15, 2000 -Declan On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 07:08:27PM -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > I sent a freelance reporter to a conference and edited her story > > that described NSA-funded research designed to do gait recognition, > > recognizing someone by the way they walk. > > Time to dig out those "Ministry of Silly Walks" episodes. :-) > > -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at mit.edu > MIT VI-2/A 2002 > > 5105 From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 5 20:33:08 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:33:08 -0700 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: <013d01c105ba$215ec740$e865a13f@moms> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <3.0.6.32.20010704202956.00808880@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010705203004.0387df48@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:22 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote: >In Iowa, it is illegal to tint your windshield, and side and rear windows >can only be tinted to a certain percent (They police have devices to measure >opacity). > >The reasoning is that cops need to be able to see the driver's face for >identification and when stopping a car to see if you are pulling a gun on >them. I wouldn't be surprised if most or all outdoor cameras use a polarizer to reduce glare and improve image quality in sunny situations. If so, windshields with cross-polarized inner liners (invisive to the naked eye as they would appear to be just a slight added neutral tint) should make their job much harder. steve From a3495 at cotse.com Thu Jul 5 17:43:31 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? Message-ID: Declan wrote: > I haven't followed this discussion closely, and I am sympathetic to > the position that far too many non-violent activities are crimes. But if > someone is a violent offender, I don't see why we should be concerned > at all with their "suffering" in prison. Well, just because someone is a scumbag doesn't mean he automatically loses his humanity and therefore deserves whatever torture and rape anyone in the facility cares to dish out to him every day for the rest of his life. What happened to OUR humanity in not being concerned about that? No need for the quotes around "suffering" in far too many places in the US, either. You know as well as I do that labeling someone "potentially violent" is a quick and easy way to take away their rights. For that reason alone, not caring about the rights of "violent offenders" seems like the first step along a slippery slope into full-blown authoritarianism. In a sense, it all comes back to your idea of the nature and role of punishment in society. Here's an excerpt from a review of Foucault's 1975 work "Discipline and Punish: The Birth of Prison" which I found useful... ~Faustine. *** If punishment serves a social function in healthy societies, it stands to reason that the nature and character of punishment will change along with the society. Different societies will have different modes of punishment, and what counts as the legitimate exercise of violence by the state will change over time. That is to say, punishment has a history. Foucault examines the history of punishment in the West, concentrating specifically on the historical shift in the practice of punishment from the 18th to the 19th century. There is a movement from the public spectacle of dramatic torture to the rise of incarceration in the 19th century and the disappearance of spectacle. It is easy to see the spectacular punishments of old described by Foucault in the beginning of this section as a means of persuasion. The emphasis on publicity and on visibility shows clearly that the goal of punishment is to persuade society through spectacle. Modern forms of punishment still function persuasively, but somewhat differently, as the spectacle has disappeared from public view, and punishment has become a more pervasive and less overtly performative affair. Foucault finds two processes at work: disappearance of punishment as spectacle: punishment goes into hiding. It is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. An invisible yet ever present threat (even a certainty, an inevitability). "justice no longer takes public responsibility for the violence that is bound up with its practice," (9). loosening of punishment's hold on the body: with torture, pain is applied to the body directly and publicly. With the disciplinary society of the 19th century forward, the body still feels pain, but it is no longer the object of pain but the medium through which pain is applied as a corrective measure to something else - the soul. "Far from being an art of unbearable sensations, punishment has become an economy of suspended rights," (11). Of course, physical pain accompanies incarceration, but it is transformed in its purpose and object: "There remains, therefore, a trace of 'torture' [supplice] in the modern mechanisms of criminal justice - a trace that has not been entirely overcome, but which is enveloped, increasingly, by the non-corporeal nature of the penal system." (16) What is punished in the 19th century is not the body but the soul. A "substitution of objects" takes place - the idea of crime has changed fundamentally. Crime, the object of concern in the penal system, has profoundly changed in quality. We no longer punish criminal activity. We now punish criminal personalities and souls rather than behavior. Our judgment is not on the act but on the quality of person who commits the act. Our punishments teach us a lesson about who we are and about who the criminal is. "the sentence that condemns or acquits is not simply a judgement of guilt, a legal decision that lays down punishment; it bears within it an assessment of normality and a technical prescription for a possible normalization," (20-1). Foucault also notes the incorporation of medical and therapeutic discourses of the human sciences into criminal justice discourse. The law incorporates these discursive formations into criminal justice to remove human accountability from the process of judicial decisionmaking. Punishment becomes a function of the social machine rather than an action carried out by individuals against other individuals. This process tends both to give a scientific and rationalistic legitimacy to punishment as well as to make punishment (and its particular form) seem like something inevitable and unchangeable. Foucault's "genealogical methodology": situate "repression" and "punishment" within larger sociopolitical contexts. Punishment is treated as one phenomenon within a complex social function, a series of discourses about punishment and crime. punitive methods are analyzed as specific techniques of a general strategy. That general strategy is the exercise of power. Punishment is seen as one method of exercising power. Punishment is thus a political tactic; like war it is one way of exercising power. For Foucault, punishment and war belong to the same general discursive formation. look at the common matrix among discourses which are not normally considered coextensive -- e.g. punishment and war, or punishment and the human sciences. Penal law and human science are not different discourses that just happen to intersect; for Foucault they are manifestations of the same underlying discursive formation -- an "epistemologico-juridical" formation. Investigate whether the entrance of the soul into the terrain of criminal justice is not "the effect of a transformation of the way in which the body itself is invested by power relations," (24). Overall, Foucault argues that we must look at punishment with cognizance of its concrete (and positive) social functions. It is not just a way to prevent crime (negative); it is also a positive system that produces social effects which are desired by the social body. The individual body, Foucault posits, is invested with political power; it is the object of a complex of political repressions, tortures, markings, etc. What is more, these investments are symbolic. The body is forced to "emit signs," (25). The subjection of the body to pain is a means of making the body speak, just like a red "A" or a yellow star of David. The techniques of power - violence applied directly to the body, interrogation, arrest, detention, internment, etc. - may be coherent in their results. But the application of these techniques is disparate and pervasive - it cannot be localized in the state, the private sector, the church, the school, etc. Apparatus and institutions such as these all distribute the exercise of power -- they operate what Foucault calls a microphysics of power. Such a microphysical study of power requires a new understanding of power: Power is not a property but rather a strategy. It is not something people have or possess. It is a mode of operation - a matter of technique, tactics, maneuvers, etc. The model of power relations is a "perpetual battle" - power relations are constantly in motion and in flux. Power is exercised rather than possessed. power is not purely negative. Those who are dominated are not repressed or without power. In fact, power "invests them; it is transmitted by them and through them; it exerts pressure upon them, just as they themselves, in their struggle against it, resist the grip it has on them," (27). Power produces. power relations are "not univocal." They exist in myriad webs of the exercise of power, from the interactions in the supermarket or parking lot to the police station. Power says many different things; it is not a simple matter to "overthrow" it. Also, power relations cannot be localized in the state or in the police - power acts through us all. relation of power to knowledge: "power produces knowledge ... power and knowledge directly imply one another; ... there is no power relation without the correlative constitution of a field of knowledge, nor any knowledge that does not presuppose and constitute at the same time power relations." (27) Foucault's project, in the end, is a genealogy of the modern soul. The "soul" is understood not as a religious, ideological, or metaphysical myth, but rather as the "present correlative of a certain technology of power over the body," (29). The soul is understood materially as a product of penological discourse. "This real, non-corporal soul is not a substance; it is the element in which are articulated the effects of a certain type of power and the reference of a certain type of knowledge, the machinery by which the power relations give rise to a possible corpus of knowledge, and knowledge extends and reinforces the effects of this power.... The soul is the effect and instrument of a political anatomy; the soul is the prison of the body," (29-30). From petro at bounty.org Thu Jul 5 21:13:00 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:13:00 -0700 Subject: Kyllo: Taking the 5th on the 4th In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010704202956.00808880@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010703104644.04464fc0@pop3.lvcm.com> <3.0.6.32.20010704202956.00808880@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: >At 06:44 PM 7/3/01 -0700, petro wrote: >>>Although the ruling only appears to apply to one's home it does >>>raise questions whether citizens may have the right to prevent their >>>observation while in public. After all one is permitted tinted >>>windows on autos. Despite certain >> >> Not everywhere, and even then not all windows. > >Forget windows. Noone tells bimbos to remove wigs, facepaint, sunglasses, >gloves, various subdermal implants. You can, of course, *observe* them, but >you can't force them to reveal (flash to Planet of the Apes sequel) their >*true face*. But they, you usually don't want to. It is however a more accurate analogy. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Thu Jul 5 21:33:00 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:33:00 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? Message-ID: >On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, petro pulled this right out of his ass... > >> The disparity in numbers is largely due to the way we treat >> the mentally ill. "They" (Russia, and most of europe) don't count the >> numbers of people forcebly institutionalized for "mental illness" as >> part of their prisoner counts, and here in the US the government >> *usually* doesn't forcibly institutionalize someone until after >> they've committed a crime, or at least been convicted of a crime of >> some sort, whether it really should be a crime. > >Total, unequivocal bullshit. You have anything to back up these absurd >statements? > >(1) "Forcibly institutionalized" patients are *NOT* [legally] "prisoners", >and therefore are not included in prisoner counts. Obviously, this >statement excludes those persons committed to institutions by a court as >"unfit to stand trial" - a microscopic percentage of the >"patient" population in the U.S. > >(2) The "2-P.C." [2 Psychiatrist Committal] laws do NOT apply to someone >*after* they have committed a crime. After they commit a crime, they are >under the jurisdiction of a *court*, and they are no longer patients (and >only _patients_ get 2-P.C.'d). > Funny, you are accusing me of saying pretty much what you just said. Hmmm... Let me try to repeat myself is a way you might be able to understand it. In this country we *DO NOT INSTUTIONALIZE* many of our "mentally ill" like they do in other countries (Russia, Europe) Nor do we count those who are as "prisoners" (which many other countries do). What happens then is that a *significant number* of these mentally ill people commit crimes *FOR WHICH THEY ARE LOCKED UP AS CRIMINALS*. In otherwords, the numbers are skewed because we tend not to institutionalize people until the actually *DO* something (even if that something is "self-medicating" using non-prescription drugs) that violates the law. >(3) The 2.P.C. laws are in EVERY state specifically allow for, and in >fact, REQUIRE, that a person be involuntarily committed if "they present >an immenent danger to themselves or others". This is clearly not the same >as "have committed a crime". And those committals are often of a very short nature--most often 72 hours being the limit w/out an inquiry, usually leading to some sort of outpatient care (at least in the time I worked for a hospital with a large government funded mental institution attached), which puts the person back out on the street where they take their meds, or not, leading to... The claim I am making is simply that comparing criminal incarceration rates across countries is not valid unless you account for many other factors, such as (in this case) the way those societies/cultures deal with their mentally ill. We deal with ours by *giving them* the choice (modulo "imminent danger to themselves or others") of getting treatment or not, and if they choose not and break the law they are criminals and are dealt with accordingly. Many other countries don't give the mentally ill person the latitude of that choice. > First you claim that "nobody has ever survived a shot to the head >with a .32", and now *this* -- Where do you get this shit from??? My information is from some who has a professional interest in prison systems, and has studied them at length, as well as a bit of reading on my own. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Thu Jul 5 21:40:00 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:40:00 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: >One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best >correlation features. > >Of course, to measure ear shape the camera has to have a good view, >unobscured and at close enough range to get a decent number of >pixels. (This makes sense, that ear shape would be a good metric. >I've been noticing the variations in ear shapes since I heard about >this scheme. Also, I can imagine the various conformal >transformations--different angles of view, for example--preserve >certain relationships well.) Hmmm... Maybe it's time to market a line of Privacy Ear Jewelry. Shouldn't be hard with a couple piercing here, and some funny lumps there to distort the profile enough. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From enenkio at webtv.net Fri Jul 6 01:33:34 2001 From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:33:34 -1000 (HST) Subject: STOP UNITED STATES LIES, FRAUD AND DIS-INFORMATION www.enenkio.org Message-ID: <28162-3B4577DE-79@storefull-613.iap.bryant.webtv.net> - Present Status - EnenKio is a sovereign state The government of the Kingdom of EnenKio was established in 1994 under authority and by direction of Head of State and the hereditary Iroijlaplap (Paramount Chief) of the Northern Ratak atolls of the Marshall Islands. The Constitution of EnenKio established and set forth the authority and responsibility of the government and established duties and succession protocol of the Monarch and Royal Family. EnenKio is a Limited Constitutional Monarchy. Representative citizens, acting as Founding Fathers, ratified the Constitution, recognized His Majesty King Murjel Hermios as Head of State, affirmed their resolve in the Declaration of Sovereignty and determined the boundaries of the new Kingdom of EnenKio. Notice that EnenKio was a new sovereign state was sent to representatives of the Republic of the Marshall islands, United States, United Nations General Assembly, UN Security Council, South Pacific Commission, NATO, world media, Pacific Island nations and other nations. Legal action was then taken to set forth the claim against the foreign occupational forces of the United States, which failed to ever answer any actions and now stands in default with respect to demands for compensation and for illegally occupying of the king's ancestral lands. The effect of legal demands filed in U.S. federal court, unanswered complaints and failure to reply now have the force of law in commerce, under national and international laws and conventions. EnenKio is an "offshore haven for criminals and money launderers" Actually, the United States did reply not directly to EnenKio, but with an insidious merciless campaign of disinformation broadly dispersed across the Internet and to its trading partners. One glaring example is a U.S. Department of State Report which compares EnenKio to the likes of Thailand, Colombia and Russia under the topic of "Money Laundering and Financial Crimes". This official report International Narcotics Control Strategy, 1998 categorizes EnenKio as an Offshore Financial Center. This is a curious label as EnenKio has no bank, no financial center and no money to launder. It goes on to refer to another state and "Enenkio" (sic) as "...mere figments of fertile imaginations...", and as "...entirely fraudulent in intent and practice." The United States offers NO proof nor is it known to have ever found any. In fact, in February 2001, the Securities & Exchange Commission, together with other federal agencies of the United States, concluded an exhaustive investigation that failed to turn up even one shred (or hanging chad) of evidence of impropriety in intent or practice. EnenKio exists "only in cyberspace" Such a claim might be made for Yahoo, Windows Magazine or any number of "dot.coms". Why, the United States itself claims over 25,000 web sites hosting millions of pages. Is this not a criteria for existence in cyberspace? EnenKio as a state has its roots in a 1987 document, but really, it is founded upon more than 2000 years of historical lineage preceding the ascendancy of the Hermios Marshallese family to their rightful, recognized traditional post. The EnenKio web site did not appear until 1998. It is a mystery how any reasonable person could examine the few dozens of posted documents, laws and letters thousands of pages are not posted and then say: EnenKio exists only in cyberspace. Today's Challenge for Tomorrow's Future Every avenue is being explored to raise capital for projects described in the development plan. Bond, stamp and shipbuilding programs have commenced. Applications are invited for passports, business licenses and ship registration. For those qualified individuals who wish to join this effort or encourage us to gain recognition among states of the first order, we have a need for Consuls and Diplomatic representatives in foreign offices, Trade Missions and other diplomatic posts. Additional human resources and people knowledgeable in international policy, diplomatic protocol, spaceport and aircraft operations, telecommunications, shipping, manufacturing, chemical engineering and a host of other disciplines will be required to design and attract development projects and implement envisioned programs. Contractual arrangements for professional consultation and services in law, finance, commerce, economics and others are being actively sought. All who have an interest and are so moved, you are encouraged to submit a Personal Involvement form. By submitting the form, you will be advised of the latest developments, provided an outline of needs and may at some point be invited to actively participate in development and promotion of EnenKio and to become a citizen of the fledgling nation. Salutation On behalf of the Second Monarch, His Majesty King Remios Hermios, His Royal Highness Crown Prince Lobadreo Hermios and all representatives and citizens of EnenKio, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs sincerely acknowledges your involvement, interest, prayers and support. See also: Political Status Under Illegal Occupation by the United States Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade Mission DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall Islands http://www.enenkio.org From decoy at iki.fi Thu Jul 5 12:56:22 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:56:22 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote: >THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all >black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, >and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black >bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black. Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack of organization...but formations? Sheesh. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Thu Jul 5 12:56:22 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:56:22 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote: >THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all >black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, >and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black >bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black. Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack of organization...but formations? Sheesh. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 5 21:01:36 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 23:01:36 -0500 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Faustine wrote: > You know as well as I do that labeling someone "potentially violent" is a > quick and easy way to take away their rights. For that reason alone, not > caring about the rights of "violent offenders" seems like the first step > along a slippery slope into full-blown authoritarianism. http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/07/01/stinwenws01028.html July 1 2001 BRITAIN New police unit will spy on would-be killers > It is easy to see the spectacular punishments of old described by > Foucault > in the beginning of this section as a means of persuasion. The > emphasis on > publicity and on visibility shows clearly that the goal of > punishment is to > persuade society through spectacle. Modern forms of punishment still > function persuasively, but somewhat differently, as the spectacle has > disappeared from public view, and punishment has become a more pervasive > and less overtly performative affair. We have moved beyond surveillance as a criminal deterrent to surveillance as punishment. The Yoke in the Ye Ole' Commons. Sexual offender registration, et. al. A private company has started an email service to notify you when an offender moves into your area. In contrast to your author, I think you would agree that we are incorporating the criminal "spectacle," and an "overtly performative affair" in various contexts. Many of these designs go beyond the necessities of criminal monitoring and restraint. See also: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2001230213,00.html WEDNESDAY JULY 04 2001 Frenzied mob hacks 300 'witches' to death ("June is sorcerer elimination month.") > What is punished in the 19th century is not the body but the soul. > A "substitution of objects" takes place - the idea of crime has changed > fundamentally. Crime, the object of concern in the penal system, has > profoundly changed in quality. We no longer punish criminal activity. We > now punish criminal personalities and souls rather than behavior. Tim's comment about facial recognition ("Smart CCTV" on the signage) being a social mindgame does bring to mind predictions of a surveillance caste system and real-space criminal "blocks" or enclaves (i.e. Escape From New York). "We're watching you" = "Don't come here," pragmatically forcing undesirables outside legitimate transactional and social systems. ~Aimee From decoy at iki.fi Thu Jul 5 13:05:33 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 23:05:33 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> Anyone who can be safely paroled, should probably not have been >> convicted. > >I don't see how that follows, but in any case, it is irrelevant to my >point, that from the individual's point of view, parole is better than >incarceration. The difference is that most of the people around here seem to be arguing from the societal point of view. (Cheap) parole, even if sheer bliss for the felon, is a bad thing when thought about with due respect to what it does to whole communities. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From smbasche at execpc.com Thu Jul 5 21:25:25 2001 From: smbasche at execpc.com (Stephen Basche) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 23:25:25 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000a01c105d3$aedf6980$65cecfa9@execpc.com> This a complete and total violation of second amendment rights. THIS SHIT WILL END SOON!!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From craig at red-bean.com Thu Jul 5 22:26:30 2001 From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky) Date: 06 Jul 2001 00:26:30 -0500 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <874rsq8w6x.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com> Sampo Syreeni writes: > On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote: > > >THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all > >black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, > >and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black > >bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black. > > Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology > is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack > of organization...but formations? Sheesh. So are you being sarcastic or are you really failing to understand that Black Blocs are a short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police, and not some demonstrative symbol of anarchist philosophy representing their vision of society? -- Craig Brozefsky http://www.red-bean.com/~craig "Indifference is the dead weight of history." -- Antonio Gramsci From adsl at webko.it Fri Jul 6 01:10:28 2001 From: adsl at webko.it (adsl at webko.it) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: un portatile in omaggio Message-ID: <200107060810.BAA14243@toad.com> possibile navigare con una velocit嚙 10 volte ISDN con un portatile in omaggio ? www.webko.it/adsl Webko Italia Net Verona From amaha at vsnl.net Thu Jul 5 12:59:47 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:29:47 +0530 (IST) Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <20010705195947.1796E1BCAA@mmb1.vsnl.net.in> Prayer is the most powerful form of energy one can generate.Prayer is a force as real as terrestrial gravity. It supplies us with a flow of sustaining power in our daily lives. --Alexis Carrel,French Nobel Prize Winner ************************************************************************************** Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Joy (Non-religious Organisation) From cofor_d at wanadoo.es Thu Jul 5 17:17:27 2001 From: cofor_d at wanadoo.es (COFOR) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:17:27 +0200 Subject: TE INFORMAMOS Message-ID: <200107081300.f68D05E05704@ak47.algebra.com> Jacarilla 8.7.2001.Publicidad/Ense簽anza a Distancia Hola que tal: El motivo de la presente carta es informarte de la posibilidad de poder realizar alg繳n curso a distancia de tu inter矇s, cursos relacionados con tu trabajo inquietudes y ocio.ect.El conocimiento es el mayor patrimonio de que podemos disponer. Nos dedicamos desde 1996.a impartir cursos a distancia disponemos de una amplia variedad de cursos sencillos para poder seguirlos comodamente desde cualquier parte del mundo y a unos precios muy competitivos. NET ------------ Comercio Electr籀nico Redes y Sistemas Sistemas Servers Dise簽o Web Direccion Empresa Net Management Bussines BUSINESS ------------ Gestor Comercial y Marketing Marketing Mix Relaciones Publicas Direcci籀n Planificaci籀n de Empresa Recursos Humanos Comercio Exterior Direccion Comercial Gesti籀n Medio Ambiental Control de Calidad Management Bussines Direcci籀n de Restaurantes ---------------------------------- SALUD SUPERACION PERSONAL ------------------------------------- Superaci籀n de Estr矇s Psicoterapia Diet矇tica y Nutrici籀n Dieta Mediterr獺nea Nutr穩 terapia y Salud Nutrici籀n y Deporte Cocina Sana Monitor Aer籀bic-Fittnes Monitor Yoga Tai-Chi Hipnoterapia Quiromasaje y Reflexoterapia Aromaterapia Cosm矇tica Natural Hierbas Medicinales -------------------------------------- Los cursos son de 200.horas lectivas el precio standar por curso es de 35.000.pts.Espa簽a a plazos.Iberoamerica 150.usa dolar aplazados. 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From adsl at webko.it Fri Jul 6 01:10:25 2001 From: adsl at webko.it (adsl at webko.it) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 03:10:25 -0500 Subject: un portatile in omaggio Message-ID: <200107060810.f668APx23246@ak47.algebra.com> possibile navigare con una velocit嚙 10 volte ISDN con un portatile in omaggio ? www.webko.it/adsl Webko Italia Net Verona From adsl at webko.it Fri Jul 6 01:14:37 2001 From: adsl at webko.it (adsl at webko.it) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 03:14:37 -0500 Subject: un portatile in omaggio Message-ID: <200107060814.DAA31417@einstein.ssz.com> possibile navigare con una velocit嚙 10 volte ISDN con un portatile in omaggio ? www.webko.it/adsl Webko Italia Net Verona From adsl at webko.it Fri Jul 6 04:03:02 2001 From: adsl at webko.it (adsl at webko.it) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:03:02 -0700 Subject: un portatile in omaggio Message-ID: <200107061103.f66B31j25236@rigel.cyberpass.net> possibile navigare con una velocit嚙 10 volte ISDN con un portatile in omaggio ? www.webko.it/adsl Webko Italia Net Verona From YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com Fri Jul 6 01:56:53 2001 From: YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com ('Your Membership' Editor) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Community & Commentary, 07-06-01 Message-ID: <20010706085653.170AAE37E2@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Community & Commentary (July 6, 2001) It's All About Making Money Information to provide you with the absolute
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Persistence and personality.

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Clearly, it is not. It's not unknown. It's not unattainable.
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One thing that "gets to me" so often in my work as an
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Long-time friend and business associate Rick Beneteau
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http://www.roibot.com/bybb.cgi?IM7517_bybtb .
But, the reason I mention this is the fact that he talks
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And, yes, Rick & I come from the same school of
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Read his ebook & you'll see more of what I'm saying.

The matter at hand is that brick wall you might have
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What I'm telling you is, the only thing standing between
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Comments:
----------------------------
Our web site is initially designed to get leads, build branding, and provide information.......with a 12 month goal of selling our service more specifically via a shopping cart. We offer a service and at this time take deposits and payments via our site. Our site has been up less than 2 months and our expectation was that we would refer to our site for leads developed in traditional media and by referral for more information, and to make a professional impression on someone you may not meet before providing service. The growth of our customer base shopping on line has grown outside of anyone's expectations.......certainly mine and I've been in this business for 25 years. The Internet is not dead in the horse business, it is just getting it's legs, and the folks using it want to get all the ancillary services on-line as well. Our site (the first we've developed) has exceeded our expectations, and we aren't satisfied with it yet.......we just wanted to get it there for information!
Jeff and Rebecca Marks http://www.grand-champion.com

-------------------------------------------------
Branding. While quality customer service and product have been and will always be our top priority brand building Zesto is our most challenging task.
Zesto.com ranks very high and most often #1 or 2 on all major search engines and directories even Yahoo entering the keyword zesto. The problem is simply that,who if anyone would type the keyword zesto, therefore we must try to build our brand by ensuring that generic keywords associated with our products (citrus peel) are used throughout our site as well as search engine submissions.
Fortunately owning a non generic domain short, easy to remember and trademarked works in our favor because the marketability potential is limitless.
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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 22864 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Waziri.ahmed at rigel.cyberpass.net Fri Jul 6 07:20:29 2001 From: Waziri.ahmed at rigel.cyberpass.net (Waziri.ahmed at rigel.cyberpass.net) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 07:20:29 Subject: urgent Message-ID: <200107060812.f668Cpj19801@rigel.cyberpass.net> THE DIRECTOR WAZIRI AHMED ESQ. AHMED & ASSOCIATES BOOK SHOP BUILDING, 11TH FLOOR 23 BROAD STREET, LAGOS - NIGERIA fax 234 1 7596610 SIR, I AM WAZIRI AHMED ESQ (SAN) SENIOR PARTNER OF AHMED & ASSOCIATES LAW CHAMBERS, A LAWYER/ATTORNEY TO HAMZA AL MUSTAPHA WHO WAS THE FORMER CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER TO THE MILITARY DICTATOR OF NIGERIA, GENERAL SANI ABACHA. THE LATE GENERAL SANI ABACHA DIED UNEXPECTEDLY ON THE 8TH OF JUNE 1998. HIS COLLEAGUES IN THE ARMY POISONED HIM IN THE PRESIDENTIAL VILLA (ASOROCK) BECAUSE HE RULED NIGERIA WITH AN IRON HAND AND HE DID NOT WANT DEMOCRACY IN THE COUNTRY. WITH THE DEATH OF THE DICTATOR, ELECTIONS WERE HELD IN THE COUNTRY AND A CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATION WAS SWORN INTO POWER. WITH THE ADVENT OF THE NEW CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATION, A DECISION WAS TAKEN BY THE PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA TO PROBE AND PROSECUTE ALL MILITARY OFFICERS THAT SERVED IN THE LAST MILITARY REGIME OF THE LATE GENERAL SANI ABACHA. MY CLIENT, MAJOR HAMZA AL MUSTAPHA WAS SINGLED OUT BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY AS AN ARMY OFFICER THAT MUST BE PUNISHED BECAUSE OF HIS CLOSENESS TO THE LATE DICTATOR AND GROSS HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES ON THE CITIZENS OF NIGERIA. MY CLIENT AND I WERE BEST OF FRIENDS AND HE SHARED HIS SECRETS WITH ME. THE FORMER CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER TO THE LATE HEAD OF STATE MAJOR HAMZA AL MUSTAPHA HAD PRIVATE ACCOUNTS THAT ARE WORTH 100 MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS AROUND THE WORLD. PRESENTLY HE HAS BEEN ARRESTED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY AND IS PRESENTLY IN PRISON WAITING TO BE TAKEN TO COURT ON CHARGES OF GROSS HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES ON THE CITIZENS OF NIGERIA. I WAS DIRECTLY INFORMED BY MY CONTACTS AT THE PRESIDENTIAL VILLA, THAT HE WILL BE CONVICTED BECAUSE OF HIS POSITION AS THE FORMER CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER TO THE LATE DICTATOR. SHORTLY BEFORE THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT ARRESTED MY CLIENT, HE ENTRUSTED TO ME THE SUM OF TWENTY -SIX MILLION, FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS (us$26,400,000.00) FOR SAFEKEEPING. THIS AMOUNT WAS TO BE SENT TO HIS MISTRESS IN LEBANON TO LAUNDER FOR HIM. I HAVE SINCE HAD THIS AMOUNT WITH ME STASHED AWAY A PRIVATE SECURITY COMPANY IN NIGERIA. I CANNOT SEND THIS MONEY TO MY CLEINT'S MISTRESS ANY MORE BECAUSE OF THE SITUATION OF THINGS OVER HERE. AS A RESULT OF THIS I HAVE BEEN MANDATED BY MY CLIENT TO SOLICIT FOR A PARTNER ABROAD WHO IS WILLING AND READY TO ASSIST IN RECEIVING THE $26.4 MILLION. THEREFORE, I NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE IN MOVING AND SECURING THIS MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNT ABROAD. YOU WILL BE ADEQUATELY COMPENSATED WITH 15% OF THE TOTAL SUM FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE AND CO-OPERATION WITH ME TO MOVE THIS FUNDS OUT OF THE COUNTRY. I INTEND TO SAFEGUARD AND INVEST THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY ABROAD WITH A RELIABLE FOREIGN BUSINESS PARTNER SO THAT WE CAN INVEST THE FUNDS IN REAL ESTATE BUSINESS OR ANY VIABLE BUSINESS IN YOUR COUNTRY. THAT IS WHY I AM SOLICITING YOUR ASSISTANCE AND COOPERATION AS REGARDS THIS BUSINESS. ARRANGEMENTS HAVE BEEN CONCLUDED WITH A SECURITY COMPANY IN EUROPE TO RECEIVE THE MONEY IN CASH DEPENDING ON WHERE IS CONVENIENT FOR YOU. PLEASE INDICATE YOUR WILLINGNESS TO ASSIST US. I AM WAITING TO HEAR FROM YOU VERY SOON. BEST REGARDS, WAZIRI AHMED From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 6 08:55:01 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: >Tim's comment about facial recognition ("Smart CCTV" on the signage) being a >social mindgame does bring to mind predictions of a surveillance caste >system and real-space criminal "blocks" or enclaves (i.e. Escape From New >York). "We're watching you" = "Don't come here," pragmatically forcing >undesirables outside legitimate transactional and social systems. Right. Between all the "offender databases" and "surveillance for your (cough) protection" and so on, anyone who's got a record winds up so completely frozen out of normal society that it becomes impossible for them to get by without continuing as a part of criminal society. It's the twenty-first century. Nobody cares if you go straight anymore.... Bear From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 6 08:59:25 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Independent News - Human cloning 'will never be safe' In-Reply-To: <3B45CC4A.25CFF69F@ssz.com> Message-ID: Human cloning will never be safe, but then neither will natural childbirth. Nor just being alive, for that matter. Bear From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Jul 6 07:22:06 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:22:06 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Bringing Quantum Chips To The Assembly Line Message-ID: <3B45C98E.C91826E7@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/06/122246.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Jul 6 07:23:10 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:23:10 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Starship Troopers: Exoskeletons and Translators Message-ID: <3B45C9CE.FFC7404A@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/06/010217.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Jul 6 07:29:09 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:29:09 -0500 Subject: The Register - Phoenix BIOS phone-home questions addressed Message-ID: <3B45CB35.1459A43A@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/20226.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Jul 6 07:33:46 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:33:46 -0500 Subject: Independent News - Human cloning 'will never be safe' Message-ID: <3B45CC4A.25CFF69F@ssz.com> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/science/story.jsp?story=82064 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jd at fbi.gov Fri Jul 6 09:35:12 2001 From: jd at fbi.gov (John Doe #2) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:35:12 -0700 Subject: chilling speech Message-ID: <3B45E8C0.22910A8D@fbi.gov> http://www.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-TV-X!ArticleDetail-37671,00.html contains an article "After FCC Indecency Cases, Stations Are Playing It Safe" which describes the chilling effect of fed fines for thoughtcrimes on fed-licensed private corporations. WASHINGTON--Sure, they're concerned about a pair of recent cases in which the Federal Communications Commission fined radio stations for playing allegedly indecent songs. But radio executives in Los Angeles believe they're taking enough precautions to avoid trouble. From Results at TVEyes.com Fri Jul 6 06:39:28 2001 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:39:28 -0400 Subject: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D101B9582D@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on WNBC during Today. Friday, Jul 6 2001 at 09:39 AM ......bacteria are becoming immune to typical treatments like chlorine chlorine you need to protect yourself from those like crypto if you have a vulnerable person ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=3422958&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. For total control of your keywords, go to http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp Marriott and Renaissance Hotels Help You Stay Connected: By 2001 almost every room will have high-speed internet service powered by AT&T. This means you will have 50 times faster-than-typical Internet connection from the comfort of your room. And you get a full day of Internet access for one low price. Click here to make your reservation and stay connected! http://by.advertising.com/1/c/23066/9974//13882 AOL users click here From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 6 06:43:00 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:43:00 -0400 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: > From: petro[SMTP:petro at bounty.org] > > Mr. May: > > >One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best > >correlation features. > > Hmmm... > > Maybe it's time to market a line of Privacy Ear Jewelry. > Shouldn't be hard with a couple piercing here, and some funny lumps > there to distort the profile enough. > Or just return to 70's hair styles. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 6 06:43:00 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:43:00 -0400 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- Message-ID: > From: petro[SMTP:petro at bounty.org] > > Mr. May: > > >One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best > >correlation features. > > Hmmm... > > Maybe it's time to market a line of Privacy Ear Jewelry. > Shouldn't be hard with a couple piercing here, and some funny lumps > there to distort the profile enough. > Or just return to 70's hair styles. Peter Trei From declan at well.com Fri Jul 6 07:08:39 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:08:39 -0400 Subject: Feds give $30 million to states to create special "drug courts" Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010706100726.00a8dd80@mail.well.com> Next up: "software piracy courts" COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE RECEIVE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FUNDS FOR DRUG COURTS 繚 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:00:09 -0400 繚 Subject: COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE RECEIVE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FUNDS FOR DRUG COURTS 繚 From: "Biber, Kathryn" DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-AG FRIDAY, JULY 6, 2001 (202) 616-2777 WWW.USDOJ.GOV COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE RECEIVE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FUNDS FOR DRUG COURTS WASHINGTON, DC - Attorney General John Ashcroft announced today, $30.9 million to plan, establish, or improve drug courts for nonviolent offenders with drug problems. Eighty-nine jurisdictions in 38 states and territories will receive grants. (See attachment) The announcement comes at the request of President Bush, who pledged in May to increase funding to fight drug addiction through several programs, including drug courts. "Drug courts help communities by managing offenders' behavior and breaking the cycle of drug addiction and crime," said Attorney General Ashcroft. "Drug court judges are actively involved in holding substance-abusing offenders accountable while helping to rehabilitate them and reduce recidivism." Fifty-five jurisdictions will receive grants ranging from $166,000 up to $500,000 to implement new drug courts. Twenty courts will receive grants ranging from $31,222 up to $300,000 to enhance their existing programs or to support statewide drug court activity. Another 14 tribal jurisdictions will receive up to $30,000 to plan drug courts. Since 1995, the Justice Department's Drug Courts Program Office (DCPO) has made approximately 650 grants totaling more than $125 million. Nearly 700 drug courts are operating in the United States and more than 430 are being planned. All 50 states have drug courts in operation or in the planning stages. Thirty-two states have passed legislation supporting drug courts and six more are introducing legislation. The drug court concept has also expanded to juvenile and family drug courts, DUI/DWI and tribal courts. According to the Drug Court Clearinghouse at American University, more than 73,000 adults and 1,500 teens have graduated from drug court programs. Recidivism rates continue to drop for graduates, with rates reported by drug courts ranging from 2 to 20 percent. Also, in Portland, Oregon, it was found that for every $1 spent on a drug court, $2.50 is saved in standard criminal justice system costs, and when estimating broader cost savings, such as victimization and theft costs, $10 is saved. In addition to awarding grant funding, DCPO provides training on planning adult, juvenile or family drug courts. In FY 2001, DCPO expanded its training programs by nearly 300 percent to train more than 200 communities. From 1995 through 2000, 446 communities received planning support and have completed the training programs. Of these communities, 76 percent have implemented a drug court. DCPO expects to provide training to about 150 communities in FY 2002. Drug court participants must take frequent drug tests and meet regularly with their judges. Drug court judges monitor offenders' treatment regimens and impose graduated sanctions, including incarceration, on those who do not comply. Participants are expected to stay in treatment and may be ordered to participate in educational, vocational or community service activities. Offenders who graduate from drug court programs may have their charges dismissed or sentences reduced. About $50 million is available for drug courts in FY 2001. The President has requested $50 million for drug courts in FY 2002. More than 240 jurisdictions applied for funding this year: 129 were for first-time courts and 99 for enhancements. A list of grantees, contacts and the award amounts is attached. In addition, summaries are available describing how each grantee receiving an implementation or enhancement grant will use the funds. Additional information about the drug court program is available on the Drug Court Program Office's Website at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/dcpo or by calling the Drug Court Clearinghouse on 202/885-2875. The Clearinghouse's Website is www.american.edu/justice. ### 01-307 From declan at well.com Fri Jul 6 07:12:44 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:12:44 -0400 Subject: FC: Feds' "safe harbor" site displayed private info about U.S. firms Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,45031,00.html 'Secure' U.S. Site Wasn't Very By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. July 6, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- A U.S. government website devoted to helping businesses keep sensitive information private instead revealed confidential information about American firms. A Commerce Department privacy website exposed proprietary information -- such as revenue, number of employees, and the European countries with which the firm does business -- that U.S. companies provided to the government in strict confidence. This information has been publicly accessible since the site went online last year. Casual visitors even could modify information stored in the agency's database, permitting anyone to delete, for instance, Microsoft, Intel, or Procter & Gamble from a government-certified list of companies that can freely exchange information with European firms. In response to queries from Wired News, the Commerce Department plugged the security hole at 5 p.m. EDT on Wednesday. "We are aware of the concerns, and are taking all necessary steps to identify and resolve the issue," a department official said. The irony of gaping security holes in a Commerce Department "Safe Harbor" site established to aid U.S. firms in offering adequate privacy protection wasn't lost on some privacy advocates. "If the government can't control its own information, why is it asking the private sector to do any better?" says Jim Harper, editor of Privacilla.org. "When it comes to information management, government is the gang that couldn't shoot straight." [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 6 07:15:04 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:15:04 -0400 Subject: Declan misses the mark on ecash References: <20010614190021.32578.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net> <20010705152809.A31598@cluebot.com> <20010705161012.A8485@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: In article <20010705161012.A8485 at economists.cryptohill.net>, Adam Back wrote: >Perhaps the berkeley lawyers opinion could be tracked down? I personally don't remember the Berkeley lawyers ever getting involved. [Thank God. Dealing with that office is just Not Fun.] I think the OP of this factoid was confusing it with the position of Stanford's lawyers regarding SRP. - Ian From declan at well.com Fri Jul 6 07:33:46 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:33:46 -0400 Subject: FC: DigiGold sues software developer to keep currency servers online Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/ebiz/0,1272,44967,00.html Nothing That Glitters Is DigiGold By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. July 6, 2001 PDT Hurt feelings, financial disputes and bizarre sexual allegations have led to a legal tiff between a high-profile digital currency firm and its software developer. After the once-friendly relationship between DigiGold and Systemics soured this spring, DigiGold sued the software company in an attempt to keep its servers online. Systemics' computers, which maintain DigiGold's customer accounts, are located on the West Indies island of Anguilla. Systemics' Ian Grigg claims he wants to pull the plug on the server since DigiGold has paid only $370,000 of the $500,000 it owed him under a 1999 contract. But DigiGold says it was willing to pay the remaining cash, according to court documents that describe how a close personal relationship between Grigg and DigiGold investor Douglas Jackson led to the creation of Systemics, the invention of a remarkable digital currency, a spate of personnel disputes and an eventual estrangement. Making an odd situation even more unusual are allegations involving one of Jackson's business development employees, Wajiha Khan, who's described in internal e-mail messages as "a person who would use her physical attractiveness as a tool for manipulation of men." According to e-mail written by Grigg, another employee "was well and thoroughly seduced by Wajiha and her attractive younger sister." In response to DigiGold's lawsuit, a judge in Anguilla prohibited Grigg "from terminating support for the DigiGold project or from taking the server offline," according to documents provided by Systemics. On June 19, Judge Hariprashad Charles lifted her injunction, and the dispute currently is in arbitration. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Fri Jul 6 07:34:48 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:34:48 -0400 Subject: Feds' "safe harbor" site displayed private info about U.S. firms Message-ID: <20010706103447.C7489@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Fri Jul 6 07:35:04 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:35:04 -0400 Subject: DigiGold sues software developer to keep currency servers online Message-ID: <20010706103504.D7489@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 6 08:03:26 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:03:26 -0400 Subject: Spy vs Spy (US vs EU) Message-ID: [IRNA is the Islamic Republic News Agency (ie, Iranian). Adjust your predjudices appropriately.] The solution to European worries over Echelon is (wait for it!) more spies! This would be another step down the road towards a new bipolar world, with UKUSA vs the Continentals (the UK, for the moment, has an uncomfortable foot in both camps). Note that one of this article's base assumptions is that Echelon is primarily used for economic espionage. It would be interesting to find European takes on this issue. Peter Trei ----------------------------------------- http://www.irna.com/newshtm/eng/14193114.htm thr 073 EU-Spy /WRD/ MP announces plans for a European intelligence service Berlin, July 5, IRNA -- The European Union plans to create a European intelligence service, in an effort to counter the American economic espionage program 'Echelon', a deputy of the European Parliament was quoted saying Thursday in the German daily junge Welt. The German member of the European Parliament, Ilka Schroeder of the Green Party, referred to the latest report by the espionage committee, calling for the formation of a European intelligence service to protect European industries against US espionage. "It's hypocritical for the parliament to criticize the US Echelon surveillance techniques, while there are plans in work to promote a European secret service," Schroeder blasted the latest initiative. A recent report by a European parliamentary committee confirmed the existence of a controversial worldwide espionage network 'Echelon' which has caused between Dlrs 13 and 145 billion in financial damages to European companies. The study, presenting evidence that intelligence services from the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain are part of 'Echelon', called on European firms to guard themselves from this ultra-modern form of economic espionage. The United States had in the past repeatedly denied the existence of 'Echelon' which is reportedly capable of eavesdropping on every single telephone call, radio transmission, fax or e-mail message around the world. US officials had refused to meet with a visiting European parliamentary delegation a few weeks ago, wanting information on 'Echelon'. A member of the EU parliamentary committee, Gerhard Schmid said the evidence, consisting of photos, statements by intelligence officials working on the project and the results of internet research-proved conclusively and without a doubt that this was in fact the case. "Companies outside Europe getting hold of this information might gain huge advantages," Schmid added. The study suggested advanced coding techniques for companies when transmitting confidential messages. Schmid also referred to the close cooperation between the intelligence services of the US and EU member Great Britain, saying it might have serious repercussions for the EU's common foreign and security policies if the issue was not discussed. The worldwide espionage installations of 'Echelon', were created in 1947 and initially used for military purposes. OT/MHJ/JH END ::irna 19:31 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 6 08:03:26 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:03:26 -0400 Subject: Spy vs Spy (US vs EU) Message-ID: [IRNA is the Islamic Republic News Agency (ie, Iranian). Adjust your predjudices appropriately.] The solution to European worries over Echelon is (wait for it!) more spies! This would be another step down the road towards a new bipolar world, with UKUSA vs the Continentals (the UK, for the moment, has an uncomfortable foot in both camps). Note that one of this article's base assumptions is that Echelon is primarily used for economic espionage. It would be interesting to find European takes on this issue. Peter Trei ----------------------------------------- http://www.irna.com/newshtm/eng/14193114.htm thr 073 EU-Spy /WRD/ MP announces plans for a European intelligence service Berlin, July 5, IRNA -- The European Union plans to create a European intelligence service, in an effort to counter the American economic espionage program 'Echelon', a deputy of the European Parliament was quoted saying Thursday in the German daily junge Welt. The German member of the European Parliament, Ilka Schroeder of the Green Party, referred to the latest report by the espionage committee, calling for the formation of a European intelligence service to protect European industries against US espionage. "It's hypocritical for the parliament to criticize the US Echelon surveillance techniques, while there are plans in work to promote a European secret service," Schroeder blasted the latest initiative. A recent report by a European parliamentary committee confirmed the existence of a controversial worldwide espionage network 'Echelon' which has caused between Dlrs 13 and 145 billion in financial damages to European companies. The study, presenting evidence that intelligence services from the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain are part of 'Echelon', called on European firms to guard themselves from this ultra-modern form of economic espionage. The United States had in the past repeatedly denied the existence of 'Echelon' which is reportedly capable of eavesdropping on every single telephone call, radio transmission, fax or e-mail message around the world. US officials had refused to meet with a visiting European parliamentary delegation a few weeks ago, wanting information on 'Echelon'. A member of the EU parliamentary committee, Gerhard Schmid said the evidence, consisting of photos, statements by intelligence officials working on the project and the results of internet research-proved conclusively and without a doubt that this was in fact the case. "Companies outside Europe getting hold of this information might gain huge advantages," Schmid added. The study suggested advanced coding techniques for companies when transmitting confidential messages. Schmid also referred to the close cooperation between the intelligence services of the US and EU member Great Britain, saying it might have serious repercussions for the EU's common foreign and security policies if the issue was not discussed. The worldwide espionage installations of 'Echelon', were created in 1947 and initially used for military purposes. OT/MHJ/JH END ::irna 19:31 From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 6 11:12:26 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: >Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its >something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while >science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to >see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing >more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form >of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited >about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for >'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the >country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the >constitution. > >So my question is: where to go? I certainly don't want to leave behind >all the neat toys in the US like widespread broadband internet access, >massive bookstores, high paying tech jobs, etc. Is there any country >that has the same technological benefits as the US without the >government steadily encroaching into every sector of life? Honestly? I don't think so. Broadband is going to be planetwide in a couple of years, and massive bookstores can be found in major cities in every city on earth, or accessed remotely from anywhere if you just want to buy books. But government encroachment is also increasing planetwide as the cost of surveillence and restriction is driven down by new technology. If you're profoundly optimistic about such things, there's a dude who has renamed himself as 'Lazarus Long' who is trying to found a nation based on strictly libertarian principles and has gotten as far as getting national sovereignty over a tiny island that has basically zero natural resources. Personally I think it's going to be very marginal and isn't likely to last more than a dozen years -- leaving those who get mixed up in it at a risk of becoming stateless persons who may be shat upon by any government on the planet. Or you could try Nauru -- ten thousand people, more or less, on an island now ecologically ruined by mining -- but it's a republic and the citizens still have representation. And it's English-speaking. They are deliberately trying to cultivate an offshore-banking business, so there are opportunities for net-savvy people capable of tending server farms and caring for customer privacy there. But they may find that their close ties to Australia are strained if they take customer privacy too seriously. The problem with Nauru is they have to import all their food except for some fish caught locally, so if they refuse to cooperate with the systematic sheepshearing of citizens globally, they are likely to find themselves hungry, or spending all their banking profits paying blockade-runners for taking insane risks. If you feel so completely fed up that you want to do without government completely, there's always Somalia -- but you will need a gun, and if you have other property you'd like to keep, the will to use it. Bear From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 6 02:19:28 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:19:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <"Pine.SOL.4.30.0107052254200.12256-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI "> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology > is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack > of organization...but formations? Sheesh. I don't sympathize with the protesters, but their strategy and its success or lack thereof is worth studying. Reducing personal signature richness is an interesting approach, and likely to work at least at current level of recording and evaluation technology. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 6 02:19:28 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:19:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <"Pine.SOL.4.30.0107052254200.12256-100000@kruuna.Helsinki. FI "> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology > is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack > of organization...but formations? Sheesh. I don't sympathize with the protesters, but their strategy and its success or lack thereof is worth studying. Reducing personal signature richness is an interesting approach, and likely to work at least at current level of recording and evaluation technology. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From declan at well.com Fri Jul 6 09:47:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:47:58 -0400 Subject: chilling speech In-Reply-To: <3B45E8C0.22910A8D@fbi.gov>; from jd@fbi.gov on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:35:12AM -0700 References: <3B45E8C0.22910A8D@fbi.gov> Message-ID: <20010706124758.A11132@cluebot.com> see also: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=tristani On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:35:12AM -0700, John Doe #2 wrote: > http://www.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-TV-X!ArticleDetail-37671,00.html > > contains an article "After FCC Indecency Cases, Stations Are Playing It > Safe" > which describes the chilling effect of fed fines for thoughtcrimes on > fed-licensed private corporations. > > > > WASHINGTON--Sure, they're concerned about a > pair of recent cases in which the Federal > Communications Commission fined radio stations for > playing allegedly indecent songs. But radio executives in > Los Angeles believe they're taking enough precautions > to avoid trouble. > > From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Fri Jul 6 06:21:45 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: 6 Jul 2001 13:21:45 GMT Subject: Declan misses the mark on ecash References: <20010614190021.32578.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net> <20010705152809.A31598@cluebot.com> <20010705161012.A8485@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <9i4e19$igq$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <20010705161012.A8485 at economists.cryptohill.net>, Adam Back wrote: >Perhaps the berkeley lawyers opinion could be tracked down? I personally don't remember the Berkeley lawyers ever getting involved. [Thank God. Dealing with that office is just Not Fun.] I think the OP of this factoid was confusing it with the position of Stanford's lawyers regarding SRP. - Ian From petro at bounty.org Fri Jul 6 13:52:27 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:52:27 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, petro pulled this right out of his ass... >> >>> The disparity in numbers is largely due to the way we treat >>> the mentally ill. "They" (Russia, and most of europe) don't count the >>> numbers of people forcebly institutionalized for "mental illness" as >>> part of their prisoner counts, and here in the US the government >>> *usually* doesn't forcibly institutionalize someone until after >>> they've committed a crime, or at least been convicted of a crime of >>> some sort, whether it really should be a crime. >> >>Total, unequivocal bullshit. You have anything to back up these absurd >>statements? >> >>(1) "Forcibly institutionalized" patients are *NOT* [legally] "prisoners", >>and therefore are not included in prisoner counts. Obviously, this >>statement excludes those persons committed to institutions by a court as >>"unfit to stand trial" - a microscopic percentage of the >>"patient" population in the U.S. >> >>(2) The "2-P.C." [2 Psychiatrist Committal] laws do NOT apply to someone >>*after* they have committed a crime. After they commit a crime, they are >>under the jurisdiction of a *court*, and they are no longer patients (and >>only _patients_ get 2-P.C.'d). >> > > Funny, you are accusing me of saying pretty much what you just said. > > Hmmm... > > Let me try to repeat myself is a way you might be able to >understand it. > > In this country we *DO NOT INSTUTIONALIZE* many of our >"mentally ill" like they do in other countries (Russia, Europe) Nor >do we count those who are as "prisoners" (which many other countries >do). Change that last bit to "(which most other countries don't)". -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Fri Jul 6 13:53:40 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:53:40 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> From: petro[SMTP:petro at bounty.org] >> >> Mr. May: >> >> >One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best >> >correlation features. >> >> Hmmm... >> >> Maybe it's time to market a line of Privacy Ear Jewelry. >> Shouldn't be hard with a couple piercing here, and some funny lumps >> there to distort the profile enough. >> >Or just return to 70's hair styles. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. 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To stop additional follow up messages click below: http://www.aweber.com/r.php?i=hotfreshleads&e=cypherpunks%40ssz.com From srinivasan at netsol.co.in Fri Jul 6 02:34:03 2001 From: srinivasan at netsol.co.in (srinivasan at netsol.co.in) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:04:03 +0530 Subject: breaking encryption in microsoft word Message-ID: <20EFA813D4A7D411A4980008C733E7BD010A99D0@netsoldns01.netsol.co.in> Dear Sir I have got a few files in Microsoft Word 6 which is enabled with password for which i have forgotten. Please let me know if there is anyway that i can break though the password as it contains some important documents about my personal things. Thanx & regards 'Srini' Srinivasan Network Solutions Ltd B-7, Gems Court, 2nd Floor #14, Khader Nawaz Khan Road Nungambakkam, Chennai - 600 006 Ph : 044-8213082 / 8218353 Ext:106 Fx : 044-8237623 E-mail : srinivasan at netsol.co.in Web : http://www.netsol.co.in From decoy at iki.fi Fri Jul 6 05:10:19 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:10:19 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, petro wrote: >Maybe it's time to market a line of Privacy Ear Jewelry. Shouldn't be >hard with a couple piercing here, and some funny lumps there to distort >the profile enough. If you need a reason for more extensive covering of your lobes, just embed a cell phone and/or other funky electronic gear. Gives you compliance to laws mandating hands-free operation, as well. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From dialermania at terra.es Fri Jul 6 15:36:04 2001 From: dialermania at terra.es (dialermania at terra.es) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:36:04 Subject: Attention Adult Webmasters!!! Message-ID: <352.144045.91964@terra.es> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3496 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Jul 6 13:52:36 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: <1f3238b915617301adca843878b40548@freemail.cotse.com> Sampo Syreeni writes: > On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Anonymous Coredump wrote: > > >THE BLACK "BLOC" The whole idea of a Black Bloc is that people wear all > >black, and stay in a tight formation. If people don't stay in formation, > >and wander around with large gaps in-between, well, that's not a black > >bloc, that's a march of anarchists wearing black. > > Now, let me get this straight...anarchists whose primary display of ideology > is to stay in tight formation? I understand that anarchy does not imply lack > of organization...but formations? Sheesh. >So are you being sarcastic or are you really failing to understand >that Black Blocs are a short-term tactic for possibly illegal >operations on the street in an environment full of police, and not >some demonstrative symbol of anarchist philosophy representing their >vision of society? Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it. Making a few gestures pantomiming paramilitary operations is just plain suicidal. The bottom line is that in a protest-type situation, you're relying on the power of negative PR to keep the police from mowing you down any old time they feel like it. It doesn't matter what color you wear or how tight you march, you're still as vulnerable as anyone else if you don't have some serious, serious gear and training. And is that really the direction you're prepared to go? Think about it. A few acts of vandalism isn't exactly anything I'd call significant. And it's kind of sad that you really think anyone with real power and influence actually gives a damn about anything that happens at these protests to begin with. Sure, it keeps their PR spokesmen spinning, but otherwise it's laughed off as a total joke and annoyance. You don't have to like it to realize that's the way it is. So why not spend your time writing some useful and relevant software or books instead, something that really makes an impact. Creativity, not destruction. At any rate, it sure beats facing the prospect of rotting in jail as a political prisoner on trumped-up destruction of property charges--sending your whole life straight down the toilet for absolutely nothing. But it's your lives, do whatever you want. I'm sure you will. ~Faustine. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 6 15:30:40 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:30:40 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Bush proposal would cover fetuses - July 6, 2001 Message-ID: <3B463C10.52BFEA89@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/06/bush.fetus/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Jul 6 15:36:28 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:36:28 -0500 Subject: The Register - Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist violence, says WTO Message-ID: <3B463D6C.AF7990E@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20242.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Jul 6 15:56:38 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:56:38 -0500 Subject: Spy vs Spy (US vs EU) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Trei wrote: > [IRNA is the Islamic Republic News Agency > (ie, Iranian). Adjust your predjudices > appropriately.] > > The solution to European worries over Echelon is > (wait for it!) more spies! Their standard answer. > Note that one of this article's base assumptions > is that Echelon is primarily used for economic > espionage. It would be interesting to > find European takes on this issue. Indeed. European takes on the privatization of intelligence agencies are quite illuminating. ~Aimee > > Peter Trei > > ----------------------------------------- > http://www.irna.com/newshtm/eng/14193114.htm > > thr 073 > EU-Spy /WRD/ > MP announces plans for a European intelligence service > Berlin, July 5, IRNA -- The European Union plans to create a European > intelligence service, in an effort to counter the American economic > espionage program 'Echelon', a deputy of the European Parliament was > quoted saying Thursday in the German daily junge Welt. > The German member of the European Parliament, Ilka Schroeder of > the Green Party, referred to the latest report by the espionage > committee, calling for the formation of a European intelligence > service to protect European industries against US espionage. > "It's hypocritical for the parliament to criticize the US Echelon > surveillance techniques, while there are plans in work to promote > a European secret service," Schroeder blasted the latest initiative. > A recent report by a European parliamentary committee confirmed the > existence of a controversial worldwide espionage network 'Echelon' > which has caused between Dlrs 13 and 145 billion in financial > damages to European companies. > The study, presenting evidence that intelligence services from > the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain are part > of 'Echelon', called on European firms to guard themselves from this > ultra-modern form of economic espionage. > The United States had in the past repeatedly denied the existence > of 'Echelon' which is reportedly capable of eavesdropping on every > single telephone call, radio transmission, fax or e-mail message > around the world. > US officials had refused to meet with a visiting European > parliamentary delegation a few weeks ago, wanting information on > 'Echelon'. > A member of the EU parliamentary committee, Gerhard Schmid said the > evidence, consisting of photos, statements by intelligence officials > working on the project and the results of internet research-proved > conclusively and without a doubt that this was in fact the case. > "Companies outside Europe getting hold of this information might > gain huge advantages," Schmid added. > The study suggested advanced coding techniques for companies when > transmitting confidential messages. > Schmid also referred to the close cooperation between the > intelligence services of the US and EU member Great Britain, saying it > might have serious repercussions for the EU's common foreign and > security policies if the issue was not discussed. > The worldwide espionage installations of 'Echelon', were created > in 1947 and initially used for military purposes. > OT/MHJ/JH > END > ::irna 19:31 From therightdomains2002 at yahoo.ca Fri Jul 6 18:42:00 2001 From: therightdomains2002 at yahoo.ca (TheRightDomains.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:42:00 -0700 Subject: Domain Registration for $15 Message-ID: <200107070142.SAA17490@ecotone.toad.com> Subject: Domain Registration for Just $15 REGISTER .COM, .NET & .ORG NAMES Only $15 per year. REGISTER NOW !!! Go to http://www.TheRightDomains.com * No Hidden Charges * No Restrictions * No Surprises * 3 Easy Steps to Register - FREE Domain Name Search: Lets you obtain information about a domain name owner, look up your competitors and check if a domain is available! - FREE Primary & Secondary DNS: Allows you to register for many domain names without having it route to your existing ISP, which may cost you money and inconvenience when you switch providers! - FREE Domain Parking: Means you can place your domain(s) on our servers free, reserving them for later use! - FREE under Construction Page: Gives you an immediate web presence while you build your web site! Registration has never been easier! Visit http://www.TheRightDomains.com now! ####################################################################### This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill section 301. 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If you have received this mailing in error, or do not wish to receive any further mailings about this topic, simply click http://TheRightDomains.com/cgi-bin/remove.pl?email=cypherpunks at toad.com We respect all removal requests. ####################################################################### From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 6 15:54:06 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:54:06 -0400 Subject: Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist violence, says WTO Message-ID: > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] > Subject: The Register - Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist > violence, says WTO > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20242.html > -- > This one is actually worth looking at, so I'm going to do what Jim lacks the ability, intelligence, manners, social grace, and common decency to do: post a nicely formatted copy of the refered article (its short). Note what the Internet means to the WTO maximum leader. Peter Trei ----------------------------- Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist violence, says WTO boss By Andrew Orlowski Posted: 06/07/2001 at 22:12 GMT "Dot com types" are to blame for the violence at recent gatherings of the World Trade Organisation, according to WTO director general Mike Moore. Moore made his remarks in Geneva, in an appeal for citizens groups (NGOs) to distance themselves from "masked stone-throwers who claim to want more transparency, anti-globalization dot.com-types who trot out slogans that are trite, shallow and superficial," he said. Which came as news to us. We thought "dot com" types were too busy braying into mobile phones and snorting enormous quantities of Bolivian marching powder as they vandalised a communication infrastructure created at great public expense for research purposes, with marketing plans that would get a six year old suspended from kindergarten for frivolity. They'd certainly be the last group we'd suspect of complaining about capitalism. "Critics, who are not all mad or bad, frequently say we have too much power," Moore conceded generously. Moore then went on to propose a contract demanding "transparency from NGOs as to their membership, their finances, their rules of decision-making," which most citizens groups will find deliciously ironic. Alas, we suspect, he was being serious. A full text of Moore's speech can be found here http://www.wto.org/english/news_e/spmm_e/spmm67_e.htm From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 6 15:54:06 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:54:06 -0400 Subject: Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist violence, says WTO Message-ID: > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] > Subject: The Register - Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist > violence, says WTO > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20242.html > -- > This one is actually worth looking at, so I'm going to do what Jim lacks the ability, intelligence, manners, social grace, and common decency to do: post a nicely formatted copy of the refered article (its short). Note what the Internet means to the WTO maximum leader. Peter Trei ----------------------------- Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist violence, says WTO boss By Andrew Orlowski Posted: 06/07/2001 at 22:12 GMT "Dot com types" are to blame for the violence at recent gatherings of the World Trade Organisation, according to WTO director general Mike Moore. Moore made his remarks in Geneva, in an appeal for citizens groups (NGOs) to distance themselves from "masked stone-throwers who claim to want more transparency, anti-globalization dot.com-types who trot out slogans that are trite, shallow and superficial," he said. Which came as news to us. We thought "dot com" types were too busy braying into mobile phones and snorting enormous quantities of Bolivian marching powder as they vandalised a communication infrastructure created at great public expense for research purposes, with marketing plans that would get a six year old suspended from kindergarten for frivolity. They'd certainly be the last group we'd suspect of complaining about capitalism. "Critics, who are not all mad or bad, frequently say we have too much power," Moore conceded generously. Moore then went on to propose a contract demanding "transparency from NGOs as to their membership, their finances, their rules of decision-making," which most citizens groups will find deliciously ironic. Alas, we suspect, he was being serious. A full text of Moore's speech can be found here http://www.wto.org/english/news_e/spmm_e/spmm67_e.htm From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Jul 6 11:19:09 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 19:19:09 +0100 Subject: Dropping out of the USA References: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "A. Melon" wrote: > > Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its > something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while > science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to > see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing > more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form > of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited > about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for > 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the > country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the > constitution. > So my question is: where to go? You don't have a whole lot of choice. Few places in the world do even as well as the US in the broad range of things you might be interested in. > I certainly don't want to leave behind > all the neat toys in the US like > widespread broadband internet access, Any rich country has this, at least in towns, and enclaves in a lot of poor ones. > massive bookstores, Ditto. We probably have better ones over here in Britain than you guys do. But you might not like other things about us. > high paying tech jobs, If you are techy enough you can get these anywhere. You get paid less in poor places of course, but then things are cheaper. > Is there any country > that has the same technological benefits as the US without the > government steadily encroaching into every sector of life? Nope. Most European countries have more restrictive laws than you do, though in practice the difference isn't that great. Everywhere you will get government interference, it depends what you object to most. The kind of personal firearms that are common in the USA are illegal almost everywhere else. But then your crazy US alcohol laws are the laughing stock of the rest of the non-Muslim world. In Singapore you can get banged up for spitting in the street. > How does one > 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become > accustomed to? Maybe by being very rich and in effect living in a fortress? Or by making do with less money. From ming at planetmongo.net Fri Jul 6 20:51:36 2001 From: ming at planetmongo.net (ming) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Belize? Unless you're looking for somewhere that doesn't have extradition laws with the US? Sri Lanka, Arthur C. Clarke is there... Not sure if they extradite.. Of course they have terrorists. ming [This is a sig file] On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Ken Brown wrote: > "A. Melon" wrote: > > > > Well, this is not exactly on topic to any ongoing thread, but its > > something I'd like to get a few opinions on. It seems that while > > science is moving ahead at a such a rate that I'm constantly amazed to > > see science fiction becoming science fact, at the same time we're seeing > > more political(?)-fiction(nightmares?) becoming fact as well in the form > > of government censorship and persecution. As I'm not exactly excited > > about the prospect of being shot or winding up in jail indefinitely for > > 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the > > country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the > > constitution. > > > So my question is: where to go? > > You don't have a whole lot of choice. Few places in the world do even as > well as the US in the broad range of things you might be interested in. > > > I certainly don't want to leave behind > > all the neat toys in the US like > > > widespread broadband internet access, > > Any rich country has this, at least in towns, and enclaves in a lot of > poor ones. > > > massive bookstores, > > Ditto. We probably have better ones over here in Britain than you guys > do. But you might not like other things about us. > > > high paying tech jobs, > > If you are techy enough you can get these anywhere. You get paid less in > poor places of course, but then things are cheaper. > > > Is there any country > > that has the same technological benefits as the US without the > > government steadily encroaching into every sector of life? > > Nope. Most European countries have more restrictive laws than you do, > though in practice the difference isn't that great. Everywhere you will > get government interference, it depends what you object to most. The > kind of personal firearms that are common in the USA are illegal almost > everywhere else. But then your crazy US alcohol laws are the laughing > stock of the rest of the non-Muslim world. In Singapore you can get > banged up for spitting in the street. > > > How does one > > 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become > > accustomed to? > > Maybe by being very rich and in effect living in a fortress? > > Or by making do with less money. From emailoffer-reply at xoom.com Fri Jul 6 21:43:42 2001 From: emailoffer-reply at xoom.com (NBCi Email Support) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 21:43:42 -0700 Subject: (KMM20240288C0KM) Message-ID: <200107070344.UAA17912@ecotone.toad.com> This message is a computer-generated autoreply. Your request or inquiry could not be processed automatically and is being returned to you. E-mail sent to this address will not reach our support team. If you have a question or request, please resubmit it using one of the following links. To unsubscribe from NBCi newsletters: http://home.nbci.com/main/help/support/1,120,-0,00.html?area=uns OR mailto:subscriptions at nbci.com To contact the support team for other issues: http://home.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,home-223,00.html Thank you. --------Original Message-------- - st: cypherpunks at toad.com I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From matt at ragasreport.com Fri Jul 6 15:02:25 2001 From: matt at ragasreport.com (The RagasReport) Date: 6 Jul 2001 22:02:25 -0000 Subject: THE RAGAS REPORT - Learning Real Lessons From the eFront Message-ID: <994456945.94726.qmail@ech> "Now Read by Over 25,000 Next Economy Architects Weekly" Friday, July 6, 2001 By Editor: Matt Ragas IN THIS ISSUE============================================== ENTER TO WIN A FREE PALM VIIx! - www.LessonseFront.com Download the free Introduction to Lessons From the eFront, the new e-business battle guide by RagasReport editor Matt Ragas and enter to win a free Palm VIIx handheld. It's the book that no Next Economy leader should be without! Learn the secrets to e-business success now by visiting and sharing the link below: http://www.lessonsefront.com/webpage/download.htm THIS WEEK'S COMMENTARY===================================== An Insider's Look at the Next Economy Editor's Note: I hope that everyone had a great 4th of July with their families. Due to the holiday shortened week, the RagasReport decided to take a short nap this week and enjoy some of the beautiful sunshine here in Florida. Of course, the report will return next Friday with its regular dose of insider commentary and analysis of the tech sector. In the meantime, I thought I'd share with you some of the great endorsements that my new book - Lessons From the eFront - has recently received. Don't forget to visit the new website for Lessons From the eFront and enter to win a FREE Palm VIIx handheld. You can also download the Introduction to the book from the site. The future is now. The Next Economy is now - read about it! Buzz About Lessons From the E-Front "During a time when plenty of painful lessons are being learned, Lessons from the E-Front could become a battle guide for the walking wounded. It's a must-read for anyone who wants to profit from tech veterans' wins and losses." -Thom Calandra, Editor-in-Chief, CBS MarketWatch "A great book for people in the trenches." -Guy Kawasaki, CEO, Garage.com, and author of Rules for Revolutionaries "Matt Ragas captures the entrepreneurial spirit with real-life lessons and stories, but without the jargon and grand academic theory. His insightful analysis cuts to the core of running a business in a time of rapid technological change and market volatility." -Bill Martin, Founder, Raging Bull Inc. "Valuable reading for all would-be entrepreneurs as well as seasoned veterans." -David Bohnett, Founder, GeoCities "An excellent guide for entrepreneurs, full of thoughtful pragmatism." -Gary Rieschel, Executive Managing Director, Softbank Venture Capital "Reading Lessons from the E-Front won't make you rich, but it might help you figure out the next step. At the very least, you'll get a glimpse into the minds of ecommerce pioneers-the ones destined to make it and the ones with the arrows in their backs." -Larry Magid, Syndicated Columnist, Los Angeles Times "No longer will a cool idea and a PowerPoint presentation be enough to get your business off the ground. If you want to build a real business that lasts, read this book." -Tom Taulli, Internet Stock Analyst, Internet.com "The dot-com boom may be over, but the lessons from it endure. Lessons from the E-Front is full of valuable advice. Anybody looking to start a company should read this book." -Andy Wang, founder, Ironminds.com, and features editor, GEAR magazine "Anyone who thinks high-tech business operates on a wing and a prayer, with glib leaders and ephemeral business plans, will be enlightened by this book. Open it to any page, and you're certain to glean a diamond-cut nugget of hard-won insight." -Brad Hill, author of thirteen books including - Getting Started in Online Personal Finance "Matt Ragas was one of the first investment writers to realize that the New Economy is about more than just technology -- it's about how companies use technology, whatever their business." -Spencer Reiss, Vice President - Gilder Publishing and Editor of New Economy Watch p.s. Free is good, right? Well, then take the next thirty seconds or so to visit the website for Lessons From the eFront and enter to win a FREE PalmVIIx at: http://www.lessonsefront.com *********************************************************** Please feel free to share this free newsletter with a friend or colleague! Pass it on! Sign up instructions are below! *********************************************************** SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION: Share this report with your friends, associates and colleagues. The subscription to the report is always FREE so pass it on or signup below! TO SUBSCRIBE - Please sign-up by visiting: http://www.ragasreport.com and entering your email. TO UNSUBSCRIBE- Please click on the unsubscribe link that can be found at the end of this report. =========================================================== FOR ADVERTISING INFORMATION - Want to reach the movers and shakers of Web St. and Wall St. all in one place? Thousands of Next Economy leaders read our report weekly. Get your marketing message in front of leaders- not followers! For advertising information please contact: AdRates at RagasReport.com. Comments? Questions? Agree or disagree with our ramblings? In dire need of real e-strategy services? Email Matt Ragas (matt at ragasreport.com), President and Chief Analyst, Matthew Ragas & Associates. About Matthew W. Ragas: Ragas is President and Chief Analyst of Matthew Ragas & Associates, an Orlando, FL based strategic advisory and venture development firm. He was previously the founding editor of Raging Bull and is the author of the new e-business book Lessons From the E-Front from Prima Publishing. Disclaimer: Matthew Ragas & Associates and The Ragas Report is not a registered Investment Adviser or a Broker/Dealer. Readers are advised that the report is issued solely for informational purposes and is not to be construed as an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy. The opinions and analyses included herein are based from sources believed to be reliable and written in good faith, but no representation or warranty, expressed or implied is made as to their accuracy, completeness or correctness. Owners, employees and writers may have positions in the securities that are discussed in the newsletter. Please note that we are taking no compensation of any kind and will never take any compensation from any companies that we mention in this report. Copyright(c) 2000-2001, Matthew Ragas & Associates. (http://www.ragasreport.com) All Rights Reserved. _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs?customerid=7979&subid=469354371381A4CE&msgnum=171 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15375 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amaha at vsnl.net Fri Jul 6 10:07:12 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:37:12 +0530 (IST) Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <20010706170712.0F2F217F0F@mmb1.vsnl.net.in> I am grateful for all my problems.As each of them was overcome I became stronger and more able to meet those yet to come.I grew on difficulties. --J.C.Penney ***************************************************************************** Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (Non-religious Organisation) From WinBOMB.2.0.Beta at ecotone.toad.com Fri Jul 6 22:54:15 2001 From: WinBOMB.2.0.Beta at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB.2.0.Beta at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:54:15 PM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: <5pw3y1pprqyb7vg.070720010054@cvserver2> I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Jul 6 23:08:13 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:08:13 -0700 Subject: Dot-commers to blame for anti-capitalist violence, says WTO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B4644DD.11612.12EDB03@localhost> -- On 6 Jul 2001, at 18:54, Trei, Peter wrote: > Moore made his remarks in Geneva, in an appeal for citizens > groups (NGOs) to distance themselves from "masked > stone-throwers who claim to want more transparency, > anti-globalization dot.com-types who trot out slogans that > are trite, shallow and superficial," he said. > > Which came as news to us. We thought "dot com" types were > too busy braying into mobile phones and snorting enormous > quantities of Bolivian marching powder as they vandalised a > communication infrastructure created at great public expense > for research purposes, with marketing plans that would get a > six year old suspended from kindergarten for frivolity. The WTO is under attack both from anti capitalists and pro capitalists. The anti capitalists are attacking it physically, with stones. The pro capitalists are using more sophisticated weapons, the "trite, shallow and supercial" arguments he dismisses. The pro capitalists are arguing that the multilateral approach to freeing trade has failed, as now too many people are looking for a gravy train in international regulation, and the solution is unilateral free trade policies, like those implemented by Singapore and Hong Kong -- that the WTO is beginning to be harmful, rather than helpful, for free trade. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG /OS0clQxBlI8w2AmxGTqQdeAGTCLAL+gOHqiP4Qs 4g5HvgJ/YLgAVlaNOte9/E7VAOdw5nIc009qpLLAU From plgn2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 23:45:53 2001 From: plgn2001 at yahoo.com (plgn2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:45:53 Subject: FLORIDA BEACH HOME..... $129.95 ???? Message-ID: <200107070451.XAA06556@einstein.ssz.com> CONFIRMATION FOR YOUR POSTING: Thanks for submitting your ad to my DTL FFA Network page at: http://www.dailytargetedleads.com/members/YOUR USERNAME HERE This is confirmation that your ad was successfully posted. This is a ONE TIME "Confirmation" Message. Please feel free to submit your site anytime You wish. ************************************************************************************ ** Florida Beach home $129 To see how you can receive a three bedroom, 2 bath, Octa-structure beach home, click here. ************************************************************************************ ***This message is in full compliance with U.S. Federal requirements for commercial email under bill S.1618 and cannot be considered SPAM since it includes removal instructions. Remove requests honored promptly. Just reply with "remove" in the subject line. *** From 100free at bigmailbox.net Sat Jul 7 00:39:02 2001 From: 100free at bigmailbox.net (Free Free) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:39:02 -0700 Subject: All Free Message-ID: <200107070739.AAA13017@mail8.bigmailbox.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From 100free at bigmailbox.net Sat Jul 7 00:40:17 2001 From: 100free at bigmailbox.net (Free Free) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:40:17 -0700 Subject: All Free Message-ID: <200107070740.AAA13220@mail8.bigmailbox.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:06:26 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:06:26 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Jul 7 01:26:53 2001 From: WinBOMB at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (WinBOMB at EINSTEIN.ssz.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:26:53 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: <0fpni43bs0bk7qm.070720010327@cvserver2> I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:26:54 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:26:54 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:27:52 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:27:52 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:27:53 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:27:53 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:48:50 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:48:50 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:48:50 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:48:50 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: <7y4benm6hytblmv.070720010349@cvserver2> I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Jul 7 01:49:34 2001 From: WinBOMB at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (WinBOMB at EINSTEIN.ssz.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:49:34 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:49:34 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:49:34 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: <8j57pev3aa1sr10.070720010350@cvserver2> I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 01:49:35 2001 From: WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com (WinBOMB at ecotone.toad.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:49:35 AM Subject: Searching a mailbomber or spamutility? Message-ID: <0pd7wkska002a8l.070720010350@cvserver2> I just found the perfect one.. and that dude is giving it away for free :) Actually, I was just testing that application and thought you would know. Visit http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm Have phun! From dragon747ca at yahoo.ca Sat Jul 7 02:19:30 2001 From: dragon747ca at yahoo.ca (dragon747ca at yahoo.ca) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 02:19:30 Subject: i can't believe this Message-ID: <200107071026.f67AQLj13793@rigel.cyberpass.net> You already own a computer and have an internet connection. While you are online you may as well make some money right? This program really works, and while it takes some persistence anyone can do this! You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your emails and be on your way to financial freedom. AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! =============================================== Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. 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Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. One day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $768,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything . But like most of the people I was also a little skeptical and little worried about the legal aspect of it. So I checked it out with the U.S. Postal Service (1-800- 725 2161 = 24 hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed Legal ! I am now loving it !" Richard Templeton, Dallas, Texas. ---------------------------------------------------------------- More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $100,000 every 4 to 5 months legally, easily and comfortably, please read the following...then READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN and follow the simple instructions ! DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED ! The sooner you do it, the faster you start making money !!! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. **** IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= **** Take this entire letter ( with the modified list of names) and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. **** To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. (there are over 170 million people on the internet worldwide and about 30,000 more new customers signs up everyday). THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500+ 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ___________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS ___________________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in atleast 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT # 1 : "HOW TO MAKE$250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" Order Report # 1 from: HOT VACATIONS 59 Corliss Crescent Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2C 4S6 __________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : JF ENTERPRISES 356 Arthur Street Suite 2 E Freeport Harbor, NY 11520-5636 __________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: Wesco Information & Distribution 1017 Ash Ave Cottage Grove, Oregon 97424 U.S.A. __________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: P.S. MUSIC ENT. 34 MORGAN ST. NEW ROCHELLE, NY 10805-1225 U.S.A. ___________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Maria Z. BENITO'S 24 DIVISION ST. NEW ROCHELLE, NY 10801 U.S.A. ___________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your sucess: *** If you do not receive atleast 15 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. Your target should be to receive atleast 20 orders for Report # 1 within 2 - 3 weeks of your mailing to be on the safe side. Because some people will do nothing after they sent you $5 for Report # 1 due to lack of enthusiasm or lack of desire to become a millionaire by end of 2000. We suggest you continue sending e-mails until you have attained the basic goal. *** After you have received 15 - 20 orders for Report # 1, then 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive atleast 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue sending mails until you do. *** Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ______________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "" You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money ion the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it would'nt work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to atleast get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Pragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply with the word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washigton, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. E N D IMPORTANT: To Be removed please send a BLANK reply to: mailto:_money101_ at excite.ca?subject=remove From jd at fbi.gov Sat Jul 7 03:19:27 2001 From: jd at fbi.gov (John Doe #2) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 03:19:27 -0700 Subject: Black Bloc on Broadway Message-ID: <3B46E22F.12CAA4E4@black.org> At 04:52 PM 7/6/01 -0400, Faustine wrote: > >A few acts of vandalism isn't exactly anything I'd call significant. Yes the smells-like-teen-spirit-'anarchists' are good for little more than a laugh, though they're setting themselves up as the next domestic boogeymen after the militia fades from view. The Bloc is just a rung on the career ladder of an up and coming Fed. Easy meat, low hanging fruit, teenagers strung out from Robo sessions 'cause Jenna has their fake ID. The Earth First and ALF folks are a little more effective, and direct, and a lot less theatrical ---though leaving a golf ball with a circle-A on it after you torch a place is a cute, if risky, touch. They are more righteous, too; the anti-WTO folks are all about simple, dirty money. Yawn. EF/ALF can approach religious zealousness, though no one has intentionally self-martyr'd yet. >it's kind of sad that you really think anyone with real power and influence >actually gives a damn about anything that happens at these protests to >begin with. Its sadder actually to consider the mindset of the protesters who take themselves seriously. Maybe the Feds will arrange to have more entertaining MTV broadcast during the next Summits, to keep Biff & Buffy home. 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Also, the 'black bloc' tactic has 'premeditated' written all over it. I'd say these kids haven't provided more protection for themselves; on the contrary, they've raised the stakes. The cops will have to arrest *more* people in order to deal with the bloc, but the people arrested when it happens are going to be charged with more serious crimes, like racketeering, conspiracy, and membership in a corrupt organization, than if they'd stuck with the simpler tactics. And most of what they might otherwise have claimed as defenses are going to crumble under that 'premeditation' thing. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but this just looks like a silly mistake that's going to bite them in the butt to me. Bear From increaseyourpower at yahoo.com Sat Jul 7 11:43:36 2001 From: increaseyourpower at yahoo.com (Destiny) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:43:36 -0700 Subject: SIX FIGURE INCOME TRAINING FREE!!!!! No Fees!!! Just Advantages!!!!! Message-ID: <63342001767184336770@yahoo.com> TAKE BACK your LIFE!! FIRE your BOSS, and WORK from HOME!! Why Wait??? FREE Training!! NO FEES!! HUGE $$$$ POTENTIAL!! GREAT OPPORTUNITY!! Your OWN PERSONAL WEBSITE provided!!!!! No Obligation!! ACT NOW!! http://www.quickinfo247.com/1811913/FREE The WEBSITE your BOSS DOESN'T WANT you to KNOW ABOUT!!!!! From decoy at iki.fi Sat Jul 7 03:13:51 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:13:51 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <874rsq8w6x.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com> Message-ID: On 6 Jul 2001, Craig Brozefsky wrote: >So are you being sarcastic or are you really failing to understand that >Black Blocs are a short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the >street in an environment full of police, and not some demonstrative symbol >of anarchist philosophy representing their vision of society? I would have to be flatlining pretty bad in order not to see that. But as the protection afforded by Black Blocs is quite thin (just indict them under organized crime or gang laws), the excercise has publicity stunt written all over it, and they *are* still undeniably broadcasting a message telling Black Blockers are willing to operate in ways diametrically opposed to the core anachist ideology, the whole thing seems both clueless and untrustworthy. I think those are precisely the criteria sarcasm was invented to be applied by. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Sat Jul 7 03:13:51 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:13:51 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <874rsq8w6x.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com> Message-ID: On 6 Jul 2001, Craig Brozefsky wrote: >So are you being sarcastic or are you really failing to understand that >Black Blocs are a short-term tactic for possibly illegal operations on the >street in an environment full of police, and not some demonstrative symbol >of anarchist philosophy representing their vision of society? I would have to be flatlining pretty bad in order not to see that. But as the protection afforded by Black Blocs is quite thin (just indict them under organized crime or gang laws), the excercise has publicity stunt written all over it, and they *are* still undeniably broadcasting a message telling Black Blockers are willing to operate in ways diametrically opposed to the core anachist ideology, the whole thing seems both clueless and untrustworthy. I think those are precisely the criteria sarcasm was invented to be applied by. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 11:43:24 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:43:24 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107072126.f67LQQj01488@rigel.cyberpass.net> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 11:43:37 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:43:37 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071813.LAA20552@ecotone.toad.com> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 11:49:22 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:49:22 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071839.f67Idax09453@ak47.algebra.com> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From amaha at vsnl.net Sat Jul 7 11:49:36 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 13:49:36 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107071849.f67InZx11147@ak47.algebra.com> PROGRESS Little & often make much. Keep moving.Slower or faster does not matter as long as you do not stop. --Confucius ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A Non-religious Organisation) From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 12:15:35 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:15:35 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071905.f67J5nJ27100@spf6.us4.outblaze.com> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From lyris at listserv.winamp.com Sat Jul 7 11:20:28 2001 From: lyris at listserv.winamp.com (Lyris ListManager) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 14:20:28 -0400 Subject: Your membership on announce has been put on hold Message-ID: This email message is to notify you that your membership to announce has been put on "hold". This means that you will not receive mail from 'announce'. Your subscription has been held because at least 1 recent messages have been either bounced by your email system, or could not be delivered at all. Your membership can be restored to "normal", by sending the command "unhold" to lyris at listserv.winamp.com Note that if your email address continues to reject mail your subscription will once again be "held". You may want to contact the people responsible for your electronic mail to determine why your email address has been having trouble. ---For your information, a non-delivery report is included below: From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 12:37:08 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:37:08 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071927.MAA08945@sirius.infonex.com> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 12:40:15 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:40:15 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071930.MAA09044@sirius.infonex.com> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 12:48:29 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:48:29 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071938.f67Jchq05329@pax.minder.net> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From High_Profits at hotmail.com Sat Jul 7 12:48:58 2001 From: High_Profits at hotmail.com (High_Profits at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:48:58 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107071939.PAA11912@waste.minder.net> This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you read everything it has to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Here is the information you requested. This is not spam. You are receiving this e-mail because you or someone else requested this information. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR, OR HAVE NOT SIGNED UP TO RECIEVE OPT-IN EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT LINE. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SENDING OF UNSOLICITED E-MAILS. _________________________________________________________________________ WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 6 months sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... _________________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of this lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" _________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 6 months! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 6 months. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top of this document to your own. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!! REMEMBER DEAR READER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30 2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180 3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080 4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480 5th level-6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880 ..................................................$46,650 _________________________________________________________________________ Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! _________________________________________________________________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS _________________________________________________________________________ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. It's best to type this to avoid mistakes. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Stan LeFeber 1353 11th St. Slidell, LA 70458 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Mrs. Paula Bowen 207 North Carolina Circle Mocksville, NC 27028 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Kimberly Fleming #936 c/o Landbase Australia Locked Bag 25 Gosford NSW 2250 Australia ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Destiny 2001 1105 Amble Lane Clearwater, FL 33755 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Kevin Zonner 166 Sherman Road Beaver Falls, PA 15010-9724 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! ********************************************* ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN. DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS. _________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1(800) 827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or non-verifiable. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. _________________________________________________________________________ From rolick571 at duq.edu Sat Jul 7 12:22:07 2001 From: rolick571 at duq.edu (coldfire) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: <200107072126.f67LQQj01488@rigel.cyberpass.net> Message-ID: > This will only take a few minutes of your time to read. If you read > it and think it is a scam then delete this email and thank you for > your time. I, however, don't believe you will delete it once you > read everything it has to say. wrong ... deleted it about 2 lines in ... From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 7 16:00:43 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 16:00:43 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010707160043.00817330@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:36 AM 7/7/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >The similar clothing is enough to charge with gang membership and invoke >RICO. I love it. If my kid goes to public school, he'll be prohibited from wearing >= 50% black clothing as that would indicate sympathy with an UnAmerican Activity. From reeza at flex.com Sat Jul 7 20:31:02 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 17:31:02 -1000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010707173046.00ce36a0@flex.com> subscribe cypherpunks From CasinoXO.com at rigel.cyberpass.net Sat Jul 7 19:39:33 2001 From: CasinoXO.com at rigel.cyberpass.net (CasinoXO.com at rigel.cyberpass.net) Date: 07 Jul 2001 22:39:33 -0400 Subject: CasinoXO - 50% Bonus - 250$ Message-ID: <200107080533.f685XHj18456@rigel.cyberpass.net> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5792 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sat Jul 7 14:49:02 2001 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:49:02 +0200 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: >Black Blockers are willing to operate in ways diametrically opposed to the >core anachist ideology, the whole thing seems both clueless and Bullshit. The anarchist "ideology" (which is a stupid assertion in itself) does not comprise of standing on the road alone to be run over by the truck. Anarchists were organised quite well at times. And chastising anarchists for not following "their ideology" makes you the Idiot of the Month. Re: Black Bloc on Broadway >Yes the smells-like-teen-spirit-'anarchists' are good for little more than a laugh, >though they're setting themselves up as the next domestic boogeymen after the militia Any display of force against the establishment is a very serious business. Societal order is always based on force/guns and any real challenge comes through force. On some grand scale of things, teenage black blocing will influence society more than any intellectual discourse on any forum. That is why the pigs are there and not in Tim May's* place or Chomsky's lecture - the language and semantics of both of them do not represent a threat to the establishment, they are harmless and benign. So it is quite masturbatory (in the bad meaning of the word) to denigrate kid's actions on the streets. There is no record in the recent history (few thousand years) that any real change was effected without force. Everything else is pacifying farce. * This is purely stereotypical and has nothing to do with the actual TM. From "Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:07 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com ("Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:07 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:08 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com ("Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:08 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:09 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com ("Stock Survey " at ak47.algebra.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:09 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at rigel.cyberpass.net Sat Jul 7 16:19:11 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at rigel.cyberpass.net ("Stock Survey " at rigel.cyberpass.net) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:11 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at sirius.infonex.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:12 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at sirius.infonex.com ("Stock Survey " at sirius.infonex.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:12 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at ssz.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:13 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at ssz.com ("Stock Survey " at ssz.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:13 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:14 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at ecotone.toad.com ("Stock Survey " at ecotone.toad.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:14 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From "Stock Survey " at ecotone.toad.com Sat Jul 7 16:19:15 2001 From: "Stock Survey " at ecotone.toad.com ("Stock Survey " at ecotone.toad.com) Date: 08 Jul 2001 00:19:15 +0100 Subject: Internet Stock Survey Message-ID: Dear Sir/Madam, Please allow me to introduce my firm, Internet Stock Surveys. We are undertaking a survey for a syndicate of major financial institutions to determine what their customers want of them. If you could take 3 minutes of your time to complete the survey, not only would we be grateful but you will be entered into a prize draw to win one of five $10,000 online trading accounts at the online broker of your choice. Confidentiality statement: This survey is completely confidential. Your details will not be released to the participating financial institutions or anyone else. If you have any questions, please email us on info at internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Please click the following link to enter the 3 minute survey: http://www.internetstocksurvey.freeserve.co.uk Nigel Forde, President Internet Stock Surveys From craig at red-bean.com Sun Jul 8 00:07:19 2001 From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky) Date: 08 Jul 2001 02:07:19 -0500 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <1f3238b915617301adca843878b40548@freemail.cotse.com> References: <1f3238b915617301adca843878b40548@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <87ae2flx08.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com> "Faustine" writes: To make it clear, I'm not a member of the Black Blocs, associated with them in any way, nor do I think the tactic is effective. I was asking Sampo if he was being sarcastic in his association of this tactic with an anarchist ideology of any value. > Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly > illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" > could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these > "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a > statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it. Symbolically, not much good except for recruiting young males with visions of being the storm-troopers of revolution or something. I had an off-list discussion with someone about wether these actions were purely symbolic or not, my position is that they are not. My argument is based on what these people are writing in their calls-to-arms or whatever you call them. They are actually trying to develop tactics for these situations, not present an image to others. I can respect the desire to develop tactics for operating in situations like that (breaking barricades, evacuating downed marchers etc...), if only because I imagine that such tactics will be neccesarry to provide sufficient symbolic victories. A WTO protest that has people in turtle suits running around outside the fenced off area is one thing, a WTO protest that results in the storming and/or burning down of the hotel the conference was being held is another. Oops, I just put myself on some Fed list. -- Craig Brozefsky http://www.red-bean.com/~craig "Indifference is the dead weight of history." -- Antonio Gramsci From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Jul 8 00:32:55 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Condit cracks Message-ID: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Heh-heh-heh. Condit has admitted to fucking Levy again and again to the DC police and the FBI. But that she was missing taking only her keys makes it seem like someone in her building killed her. From newregistry at email.com Sun Jul 8 06:51:13 2001 From: newregistry at email.com (NewRegistryDomains.net) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 06:51:13 -0700 Subject: .BIZ .INFO domain extensions Message-ID: <200107081351.GAA23249@ecotone.toad.com> Attention: Internet Domain Registrant The new top level domain names with extensions .BIZ, .INFO, .PRO, and .NAME have just been approved by global internet authorities and will be released soon, but don't wait until then to register. These domains are available NOW for pre-registration at: http://www.NewRegistryDomains.net on a first come, first serve basis. "While .com names hold the most prestige, the next frontier is the new suffixes -.info, .biz, and .pro -likely to become available later this year..." -BUSINESSWEEK MAGAZINE, April 16, 2001. 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We respect all removal requests. ####################################################################### From lyris at listserv.winamp.com Sun Jul 8 06:24:43 2001 From: lyris at listserv.winamp.com (Lyris ListManager) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 09:24:43 -0400 Subject: Your membership on announce has been put on hold Message-ID: This email message is to notify you that your membership to announce has been put on "hold". This means that you will not receive mail from 'announce'. Your subscription has been held because at least 2 recent messages have been either bounced by your email system, or could not be delivered at all. Your membership can be restored to "normal", by sending the command "unhold" to lyris at listserv.winamp.com Note that if your email address continues to reject mail your subscription will once again be "held". You may want to contact the people responsible for your electronic mail to determine why your email address has been having trouble. ---For your information, a non-delivery report is included below: From enenkio at webtv.net Sun Jul 8 12:51:16 2001 From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 09:51:16 -1000 (HST) Subject: Thair back !!! SuperJap Sen.Inouye (one armed bandit) and SPOOKs Message-ID: <40-3B48B9B4-504@storefull-614.iap.bryant.webtv.net> "AL-GATE" By Charles P. Reyes Jr. SAIPAN, Northern Mariana Islands (August 18, 1999 Saipan Tribune)---John Del Rosario called it "The Pinto Boys Plumbers Unit." Bruce Lloyd called it "Al-Gate." We could also call it "North-Gate." But whatever it is called, it is clearly one of the biggest scandals to hit Washington since the Monica Lewinsky affair. Such a scandal merits much more mainland American media publicity than it is currently receiving--and not just from the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times and the Washington Post, but from the Reader's Digest, Inside Edition and 20/20 as well. Most especially from 20/20, since it was celebrated for its award-winning CNMI sweatshop/forced prostitution expos矇. After all, wouldn't 20/20 like to know how they served as willing dupes to David North, Global Exchange and other co-conspirators bent on discrediting the CNMI and its free market Republican allies? ABC's 20/20 should really produce this investigative story. ABC's Brian Ross owes it to professional, fair-minded, ethical journalism. Here is how such a show might go. Connie Chung: Good evening, America. And welcome to 20/20. A few months ago, we produced a special report called "The Shame of Saipan," detailing false charges of sweatshops and prostitution on "American soil." Well, today we would like to set the record straight and apologize for serving as the willing dupes of Mr. David North, formerly of the U.S. Interior Department, who flagrantly violated the Hatch Act in a shameless attempt to discredit Saipan and its Republican allies. Charles Gibson: That's right, Connie. There is compelling and convincing evidence to suggest that the U.S. Department of Interior, Office of Insular Affairs, under the auspices of Secretary Bruce Babbitt, former Director Allen Stayman and David North, waged a vicious campaign of political destruction against a tiny set of islands its office was specifically created to nurture, support and protect. Our reporter Brian Ross has more . . . Brian? Brian Ross: That's absolutely right, Charles. The U.S. Office of Insular Affairs clearly violated the Hatch Act through the direct actions Mr. North and possibly even Mr. Stayman. To this day, however, Mr. North still refuses to comment on the matter, as this video clip clearly shows. (Episode now switches to an ominous camera shot of Mr. North's House. Mr. North leaves his house and Brian Ross peppers him with questions.) Brian Ross: Mr. North, did you really violate the Hatch Act, and were you really out to destroy Tom Delay? Mr. North: (Covering his head and waving Mr. Ross away): No comment. No comment. I have no comment at this time. Please go away. Brian Ross: Which was why we sent an undercover Republican posing as a Democrat from the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee to speak to Mr. North prior to the scandal. It is all here on tape, and it's worse than the undercover buyer speaking to garment magnate Willie Tan. (Move to undercover film clip.) Undercover Republican (posing as a Democratic labor union supporter): Mr. North, what are we going to do about the CNMI? Mr. North: Don't worry, George Miller will never let them go. He will kill them. I am working on getting more Democrats to help George kill the CNMI and their evil Republican friends right now. Yes, this story ought to be produced; unfortunately, it will never happen--nothing even close. STAYMAN THE SCOUNDREL By Benhur C. Saladores SAIPAN, Northern Mariana Islands (August 19, 1999 Saipan Tribune)---We have a new name for Mr. Allen Stayman. From now on, Mr. Stayman will be known as "Stayman the scoundrel" in the Northern Marianas. This is not mere name-calling, since a scoundrel is officially defined as "a mean, worthless fellow; a rascal; a villain; a man without honor or virtue." Such a description fits Mr. Stayman's character perfectly. Consider the memo he wrote to Matt Angle, a former executive director of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC), suggesting that U.S. Democrats "repudiate" former Governor Froilan C. Tenorio. "Largely out of sight, there is a nominal Democrat, a Governor running for reelection, who scorns our President, who is in Washington this week playing footsie with the Republican House leadership, and who should be repudiated -- in writing -- by the Nation's Democrats," wrote Stayman the Scoundrel in an October 6, 1997 memo, according to Roll Call. According to the Saipan Tribune, "Stayman further suggested that the Democratic National Committee 'should repudiate these scoundrels.'" Exactly who are 'these scoundrels' Mr. Stayman refers to? Froilan Tenorio, of course--but not only the former governor: all of the indigenous people as well. That is, all of the indigenous people who refuse to be subjected to Mr. Scoundrel's program of federalization; who refuse to be deprived of their local self-government and economic self-sufficiency; who refuse to tolerate the lies Mr. Stayman, Mr. North and their labor union cronies tell about our home islands. Mr. Stayman is a scoundrel because he calls people who disagree with his politics "scoundrels," because his radical leftist ideology clouds his objectivity and drives him to violate federal laws (the Hatch Act) with impunity. Stayman is a bureaucratic federal bully who was out to destroy the CNMI's reputation and anybody who defends it. Mr. Scoundrel was out to destroy our garment industry and ravage our economy--just to serve his politics. He knew about David North's vicious campaign to unseat U.S. House Republicans all along--and yet he did absolutely nothing about it, probably because he was deeply involved in the anti-CNMI crusade himself. Mr. Stayman is a scoundrel--"a mean, worthless fellow; a rascal; a villain; a man without honor or virtue." That much is a fact = www.enenkio.org - Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade Mission DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall Islands http://www.enenkio.org From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 8 10:31:34 2001 From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (Brent) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 10:31:34 -0700 Subject: Who Said This? References: <05eb01c107f0$af6594a0$6cc1fea9@computer> Message-ID: voltaire ----- Original Message ----- From: Don White To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: CDR: Who Said This? Who said, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death . . . " Thanks, Don White -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1196 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sun Jul 8 08:47:24 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:47:24 -0400 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <1f3238b915617301adca843878b40548@freemail.cotse.com>; from a3495@cotse.com on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:52:36PM -0400 References: <1f3238b915617301adca843878b40548@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <20010708114724.A2140@cluebot.com> On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:52:36PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > Making a few gestures pantomiming paramilitary operations is just plain > suicidal. The bottom line is that in a protest-type situation, you're > relying on the power of negative PR to keep the police from mowing you down > any old time they feel like it. It doesn't matter what color you wear or > how tight you march, you're still as vulnerable as anyone else if you don't > have some serious, serious gear and training. And is that really the > direction you're prepared to go? Think about it. Perhaps some Black Block types and other Seattlish protesters do have such gear and training, but the ones I've run across (http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration-highlights.html) do not. Besides, the police will always have more resources and will probably be able to stop you from legally possessing the cooler gear you really need (http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/dem-protests-00.html). -Declan From declan at well.com Sun Jul 8 08:53:39 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:53:39 -0400 Subject: Condit cracks In-Reply-To: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 03:32:55AM -0400 References: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010708115339.C2140@cluebot.com> The sooner this is over with the better. There's been a camera truck parked a few doors down from my place in Adams Morgan for the last week. It has a telescoping roof-mounted camera that seems to be able to stretch up to about 60 feet, all the better to get a photo of Condit as he's fondling the next intern in his Adams Morgan pad. -Declan On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 03:32:55AM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Heh-heh-heh. Condit has admitted to fucking Levy again > and again to the DC police and the FBI. > > But that she was missing taking only her keys > makes it seem like someone in her building > killed her. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Jul 8 12:30:37 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 12:30:37 -0700 Subject: Condit cracks In-Reply-To: <20010708115339.C2140@cluebot.com> References: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <200107081631.MAA04453@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> So, Declan, what's the latest Beltway buzz about Levy, as with Lewinsky, working for Mossad, that is, FRU, to suck secrets from Condit and Clinton, if not directly then by extortion when the photos and recordings and confessions are bared to the stiffs. Get the license plate of that surveillance truck. Get the biometrics of its operators. Or spot the ice cream van snarfing the mucker's emissions. From Ramm85 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 8 11:54:06 2001 From: Ramm85 at hotmail.com (Ramm85 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 13:54:06 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107081854.f68Is6E07480@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sun Jul 8 11:08:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:08:26 -0400 Subject: Condit cracks In-Reply-To: <200107081631.MAA04453@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 12:30:37PM -0700 References: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <20010708115339.C2140@cluebot.com> <200107081631.MAA04453@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010708140826.A1123@cluebot.com> Okay, okay. I haven't been out yet today but will take my digital camera and see if I can photonab that blasted van. -Declan On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 12:30:37PM -0700, John Young wrote: > So, Declan, what's the latest Beltway buzz about Levy, as with > Lewinsky, working for Mossad, that is, FRU, to suck secrets from > Condit and Clinton, if not directly then by extortion when the photos > and recordings and confessions are bared to the stiffs. > > Get the license plate of that surveillance truck. Get the biometrics > of its operators. Or spot the ice cream van snarfing the mucker's > emissions. From dlw at cas-com.net Sun Jul 8 13:58:04 2001 From: dlw at cas-com.net (Don White) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 16:58:04 -0400 Subject: Who Said This? Message-ID: <05eb01c107f0$af6594a0$6cc1fea9@computer> Who said, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death . . . " Thanks, Don White -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Musthaveinfo at angelfire.com Sun Jul 8 17:13:34 2001 From: Musthaveinfo at angelfire.com (Musthaveinfo at angelfire.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 17:13:34 Subject: Great business opportunity Message-ID: <267.425247.848557@angelfire.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8287 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john at starta.org Sun Jul 8 19:58:00 2001 From: john at starta.org (John Starta) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 19:58:00 -0700 Subject: Who Said This? In-Reply-To: <05eb01c107f0$af6594a0$6cc1fea9@computer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010708195639.039744f0@popcorn> The quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is widely attributed to Voltaire, but cannot be found in his writings. The phrase was invented by a later author as an epitome of his attitude. It appeared in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the pseudonym S[tephen] G. Tallentyre. At 04:58 PM 7/8/01 -0400, Don White wrote: >Who said, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death . >. . " >Thanks, Don White From declan at well.com Sun Jul 8 16:58:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:58:18 -0400 Subject: Condit cracks In-Reply-To: <20010708140826.A1123@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 02:08:26PM -0400 References: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <20010708115339.C2140@cluebot.com> <200107081631.MAA04453@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <20010708140826.A1123@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010708195818.A5318@cluebot.com> The truck: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-23/gary-condit-chandra-levy-2.html The apartment and media stakeout: http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/gary-condit-stakeout-july01.html The media stakeout is both pathetic and hysterical: Condit has not been spotted within miles of his apartment in the last few weeks but they're outside anyway. I chatted with a New York Post photog who was philosophical when challenged by some passers-by -- he was getting paid by the hour, he said, and didn't mind the wait. Other residents of the apartment building are starting to take offense; around noon today one started screaming at and physically threatened some of the reporters, who are now clustered in clumps for safety. -Declan On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 02:08:26PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Okay, okay. I haven't been out yet today but will take my digital camera > and see if I can photonab that blasted van. > > -Declan > > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 12:30:37PM -0700, John Young wrote: > > So, Declan, what's the latest Beltway buzz about Levy, as with > > Lewinsky, working for Mossad, that is, FRU, to suck secrets from > > Condit and Clinton, if not directly then by extortion when the photos > > and recordings and confessions are bared to the stiffs. > > > > Get the license plate of that surveillance truck. Get the biometrics > > of its operators. Or spot the ice cream van snarfing the mucker's > > emissions. From YOUTALK at in-box.net Sun Jul 8 20:11:55 2001 From: YOUTALK at in-box.net (YOUTALK at in-box.net) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 20:11:55 Subject: UNLIMITED LONG DISTANCE! 100% Fiber Optic Network & Immediate Activation!! Message-ID: <448.807071.494164@www.inofspacedeliver.com> This is NOT VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) You Can Now Enjoy Unlimited Calling From A 100% Fiber Optic Network At A Flat Monthly Rate! * Call Anywhere In The USA! * 24 Hours 7 Days A Week! * Unlimited Use For 30 Days! How Does It Work? Just Contact Our 24 Hour Prepaid Hotline And For $79.95, Tax Included, We Will Issue You Your Access & PIN# Immediately! You Will Then Set Up Your Account By Dialing Your Access & PIN# Into The Phone You Have Selected And Begin Enjoying One Month Of UNLIMITED LONG DISTANCE! To Continue Service, Simply Call Our 24 Hour Hotline And Purchase A New PIN. 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( If you do not wish to receive further notices, please follow the easyremoval instructions .) Click here to be removed ========================================================= From ann_onomys at lineone.net Sun Jul 8 20:24:49 2001 From: ann_onomys at lineone.net (B.K. DeLongue) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 22:24:49 -0500 Subject: Def Con/Black Hat: Change of Venue Message-ID: Hi all - My name is B.K. DeLongue. Many of you may know me as Troy McClure from Infomercials such as "Might Makes Truth" and "Re-education Is Freedom". I am coordinating all press activities for Black Hat and DefCon and just wanted to drop everyone a cautionary note. If you know of other people not on this list attending the shows or other lists where this email may be relevant, please pass it on. As you may know, Defcon has traditionally been held in Las Vegas, a city known for its respect for total anonymity and utter lack of surveillance cameras. The remote locations chosen in the past have assured participants that there was absolutely no way that recording devices, video cameras or infrared monitoring devices could ever be installed in advance by three-letter agencies. My friends, we've made a few changes this year so that we r e a l l y know we'll be secure. As believers in freedom and open expression, Defcon will be shifting venue from Las Vegas to Pyongyang, effective immediately. By moving to North Korea, we will be assured that only Approved Journalists will be writing about Defcon and that their reports will be acceptable under the guidelines put forward in the XXVII Party Congress. Our consultants from the Church簧 of穢 Scientology have advised us that not only can we control the copyright of any and all news reports generated at Defcon, but we can charge them for the privilege of doing their job, too. Accordingly, ALL journalists will be charged $50 to attend Defcon. Feel free to talk to any and all Approved Journalists. Their words and images will be appropriately edited as-needed so as to ensure 100% compliance with Party directives. See you at the parade, Troy (B.K.) This year, as you may know, we are charging EVERYONE $50 to get into Def Con. This includes reporters, journalists, television producers etc. As such, many reporters have mentioned that they will be registering for the show as regular attendees. Because I do a rigorous review of the credentials for journalists applying for Def Con press passes, I HIGHLY CAUTION you NOT to speak with anyone claiming to be a journalist that is without a Def Con press badge. Those whom I will approve for press passes will be from grassroots or mainstream media that either cover computer security on a regular basis or report on general news for a very large media outlet. It's my job to weed out the frauds, charlatans, and freeloaders. While I CANNOT GUARANTEE that these "approved" reporters will write a favourable article if you choose to speak with them, I can say that they are relatively well-known, legitimate journalists and will have to suffer the ridicule and examination by their peers and the public if they write a bad article (and may show up in Attrition.org Errata - http://www.attrition.org/errata). We have posted a set of guidelines for "approved" press to the Def Con Web site at: http://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-9-media-sponsors.html Under the heading of "Def Con Registered Press Guidlines". As you can see, broadcast journalists will only be allowed free reign (ie film/record anywhere) in the public areas (the Capture the Flag areas, Vendor areas, and DJ / Rave rooms). If you don't want to be filmed, keep an eye out for the cameras and don't be in any of those rooms when filming might be going on. Speaker presentations, however, are a different ballgame. Anyone with a camera may ONLY film the speakers. Any quick shots of the crowd or filming while pretending the camera is off will result in the Goons taking action and removing the offender from the room. So like a favorite professor of mine says "CONSTANT VIGILANCE!" Remember that while there is a computer security conference going on, Federal law enforcement has been known to be in attendance (Spot the Fed!) as well as reporters (both "approved" and rogue) who have no qualms in printing any information you happen to give them - in some cases regardless if you say "background only" or not. So if you choose to talk to a reporter, make sure they're Def Con approved and make sure you don't say ANYTHING you wouldn't want to see in the media. It could result in your "dox" being dropped to the world or worse yet an raid and arrest by said attending law enforcement From listas at denio.eti.br Sun Jul 8 19:18:26 2001 From: listas at denio.eti.br (Denio Robson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:18:26 -0300 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <002f01c1081d$716b8470$708cccc8@delta> unsubscribe From listas at denio.eti.br Sun Jul 8 19:46:19 2001 From: listas at denio.eti.br (Denio Robson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:46:19 -0300 Subject: Remove Message-ID: <003101c10821$5542aae0$708cccc8@delta> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2484 bytes Desc: not available URL: From listas at denio.eti.br Sun Jul 8 20:07:48 2001 From: listas at denio.eti.br (Denio Robson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 00:07:48 -0300 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <003801c10824$55525af0$708cccc8@delta> Eu quero sair dessa droga. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From newextcen at email.com Mon Jul 9 04:06:10 2001 From: newextcen at email.com (NewExtensionCentral.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 04:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: .BIZ .INFO domain extensions Message-ID: <200107091106.EAA27367@sirius.infonex.com> Attention: Internet Domain Registrant The new top level domain names with extensions .BIZ, .INFO, .PRO, and .NAME have just been approved by global internet authorities and will be released soon, but don't wait until then to register. 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Go to http://www.NewExtensionCentral.com now to pre-register. ####################################################################### This message is sent in compliance with the new email bill section 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618 and is not intended for residents in the State of WA, NV, CA & VA. If you have received this mailing in error, or do not wish to receive any further mailings pertaining to this topic, simply send email to: off_list_tld at yahoo.com. We respect all removal requests. ####################################################################### From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Jul 9 06:32:06 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 06:32:06 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: <9d149bbb193cf7d9dfc6f754189c0aea@melontraffickers.com> Ray Dillinger wrote: On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >the protection afforded by Black Blocs is quite thin (just indict them under >organized crime or gang laws), > The similar clothing is enough to charge with gang membership and invoke > RICO. Also, the 'black bloc' tactic has 'premeditated' written all over > it. I'd say these kids haven't provided more protection for themselves; > on the contrary, they've raised the stakes. The cops will have to arrest > *more* people in order to deal with the bloc, but the people arrested > when it happens are going to be charged with more serious crimes, like > racketeering, conspiracy, and membership in a corrupt organization, than > if they'd stuck with the simpler tactics. And most of what they might > otherwise have claimed as defenses are going to crumble under that > 'premeditation' thing. That's irrelevant -- the fedz, and even state courts, are already giving the heaviest sentences to protesters of anytime in our history. And you obviousely have never taken part in any street actions. They've got a good idea -- one of the tactics used by cops for quite awhile is to have undercover agents in the crowd who spot the *real* troublemakers, leaders, etc. and then often an "affinity squad" will target that individual. By making it very difficult to differentiate any individuals, that whole cop tactic becomes useless. The other part of the bloc is that by staying together in a tight group, they can grab arrestees from the cops more easily. We used to have groups of two or three who worked together this way, more is better. From bear at sonic.net Mon Jul 9 09:20:32 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TV as an indicator... Message-ID: I turned on a television set last night, for the first time in many months. I was watching videotapes, but I caught fragments of shows while tapes were rewinding, etc. American TV has taken a definite turn for the vicious since I last watched. It's still pablum-and-opiates, but someone has spiked it. We're seeing an increasing focus on elitism, "survival of the fittest", etc -- shows that present the "elimination" of the weak as a virtue, and where game-show hosts masquerading as intellectuals intentionally humiliate contestants. We are seing a separation of moral responsibility from action and being conditioned to accept viciousness in authority figures. We are also being conditioned to accept the idea that some form of pseudo-intellectual "correctness" excuses viciousness. The tone is very similar to "entertainment" or "public education" films that were produced by the propaganda arm of the german National Socialist party in 1936-1938, which I remember from school but which folk in Germany, or those who attend current-day American schools, will not recognize due to censorship. We forget history, believing that this will prevent us from repeating it rather than the other way round.... The progression was reasonably simple, as I recall. First, the people are conditioned to accept "harsh reality", survival of the fittest, etc. Second, the people are conditioned to accept that, these things being inevitable, hurrying them along is a virtue. Third, some class of people are identified as being "inferior" and pseudoscience upholding the claim is advanced. The shows I saw last night were deep into the second stage, and universal public monitoring is now more pervasive here than it was then and there, and our schools are raising a generation of people who think monitoring and draconian weapons laws are normal, and ideas not "politically correct" are being persecuted as vigorously here as they were in Nazi Germany. The parallels continue... The "new media must be controlled" of that era was radio and television -- now it's the internet. Same basic debates going on -- most of the same outcomes happening. I am scared. Bear From amaha at vsnl.net Mon Jul 9 09:14:42 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:14:42 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107091614.f69GEfE16955@ak47.algebra.com> Do what you can,with what you have,where you are. --Theodore Roosevelt ===================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A Non-religious Organisation) From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Jul 9 09:03:55 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:03:55 -0400 Subject: Declan misses the mark on ecash In-Reply-To: ; from Ian Goldberg on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:15:04AM -0400 References: <20010614190021.32578.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20010705144907.A7219@economists.cryptohill.net> <20010705152809.A31598@cluebot.com> <20010705161012.A8485@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <20010709120355.A3364@economists.cryptohill.net> On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:15:04AM -0400, Ian Goldberg wrote: > Adam Back wrote: > >Perhaps the berkeley lawyers opinion could be tracked down? > > I personally don't remember the Berkeley lawyers ever getting involved. > [Thank God. Dealing with that office is just Not Fun.] > > I think the OP of this factoid was confusing it with the position of > Stanford's lawyers regarding SRP. So I asked Bob Hettinga as I thought I saw the comment on one of his lists, and with Ben Laurie who apparently made one of the comments and it appears there was confusion surrounding the comment by either Ben or Bob. Which doesn't alter my opinion about Declan's comments about Wagner's blinding method, but I thought I'd track it down and set the record straight on the mythical berkeley law prof. Adam From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 9 12:10:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:10:12 -0700 Subject: You ARE the weakest link. Good-bye! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:20 AM -0700 7/9/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >I turned on a television set last night, for the first time in many >months. I was watching videotapes, but I caught fragments of shows >while tapes were rewinding, etc. > >American TV has taken a definite turn for the vicious since I last >watched. It's still pablum-and-opiates, but someone has spiked it. > "Let's kick it up a notch!" >We're seeing an increasing focus on elitism, "survival of the fittest", >etc -- shows that present the "elimination" of the weak as a virtue, >and where game-show hosts masquerading as intellectuals intentionally >humiliate contestants. Yes, quite a refreshing trend. >We are seing a separation of moral responsibility >from action and being conditioned to accept viciousness in authority >figures. That British woman who says "You ARE the weakest link. Good-bye!" is not an authority figure by any sense of being a state functionary. People compete in the show, as in all of the other shows you are presumably catching snippets of, on a voluntary basis. (Note: I have never seen an episode of "Survivor," "Boot Camp," or "Weakest Link." I did watch the first episode of "Big Brother" last summer, figuring it might be germane to my interests in privacy and surveillance, but it was too boring to watch for a second hour.) >The tone is very similar to "entertainment" or "public education" >films that were produced by the propaganda arm of the german National >Socialist party in 1936-1938, which I remember from school but >which folk in Germany, or those who attend current-day American >schools, will not recognize due to censorship. We forget history, >believing that this will prevent us from repeating it rather than >the other way round.... Calling these shows comparable to what the Nazis did is ludicrous. > >The progression was reasonably simple, as I recall. > >First, the people are conditioned to accept "harsh reality", survival > of the fittest, etc. Teaching people this fact might do wonders for getting ten million leeches off the welfare rolls and state subsidy scams, so I applaud it. >Third, some class of people are identified as being "inferior" and > pseudoscience upholding the claim is advanced. The dull are just that, dull. Not pseudoscience, but fact. > >I am scared. > You ARE the weakest link. Good-bye! --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From vinayan_m at visualsoft-tech.com Mon Jul 9 00:05:05 2001 From: vinayan_m at visualsoft-tech.com (Vinay Menon) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:35:05 +0530 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <87ae2flx08.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com> Message-ID: Hi Can u tell me how I can unsubscribe from this mailing list ? Regards, Vinayan Menon System Analyst vinayan_m at visualsoft-tech.com Ph : 3412266 Ext: 2021 VisualSoft Technologies www.visualsoft-tech.com www.visualmart.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Craig Brozefsky Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:37 PM To: Faustine Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: Re: Meatspace anonymity manual "Faustine" writes: To make it clear, I'm not a member of the Black Blocs, associated with them in any way, nor do I think the tactic is effective. I was asking Sampo if he was being sarcastic in his association of this tactic with an anarchist ideology of any value. > Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly > illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" > could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these > "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a > statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it. Symbolically, not much good except for recruiting young males with visions of being the storm-troopers of revolution or something. I had an off-list discussion with someone about wether these actions were purely symbolic or not, my position is that they are not. My argument is based on what these people are writing in their calls-to-arms or whatever you call them. They are actually trying to develop tactics for these situations, not present an image to others. I can respect the desire to develop tactics for operating in situations like that (breaking barricades, evacuating downed marchers etc...), if only because I imagine that such tactics will be neccesarry to provide sufficient symbolic victories. A WTO protest that has people in turtle suits running around outside the fenced off area is one thing, a WTO protest that results in the storming and/or burning down of the hotel the conference was being held is another. Oops, I just put myself on some Fed list. -- Craig Brozefsky http://www.red-bean.com/~craig "Indifference is the dead weight of history." -- Antonio Gramsci From sylsi at hotbot.com Mon Jul 9 13:03:22 2001 From: sylsi at hotbot.com (sylsi at hotbot.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Low On Printer Ink? pjynn Message-ID: <200107092003.NAA18105@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6705 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Mon Jul 9 10:40:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 13:40:12 -0400 Subject: FC: U.N. security investigating irate email from U.S. gun owners Message-ID: Summary: Fewer than 100 angry email messages from American gun owners led U.N. conference organizers to turn over the correspondence to U.N. internal security forces. The U.N. gun-summit began today, and -- see below -- includes proposals for a global gun database, tracking of firearms, complaints about encryption and so on. What's interesting is that even this limited outcry was enough to prompt U.N. officials to make the appropriate "we're not trying to limit private ownership of guns," apparently backtracking from previous positions. Statement on U.N. meeting from Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms: http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/0601-139.html To see what kind of reaction the U.N. conference has provoked: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ae8ec916ace.htm http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2001/SmallArmsConfBrf.doc.htm >He said he had seen some of the nearly 100 letters and e-mails that had >been sent by gun-ownership advocates. They were mainly irate and "strongly >worded" protests, and allegations that the United Nations wanted to take >guns away from civilians in conflict with the constitutional rights of >United States citizens. While he would not characterize any of the letters >as explicitly threatening, they had been turned over to United Nations >security authorities. Mr. Honwana added that it was not for his Department >to determine whether the correspondence was threatening. It was up to the >Organization's security staff to make that determination. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2001/dc2782.doc.htm >A small arms and light weapons register could be established, adds the >report, at the national level to assist information-gathering and >information-sharing. One option could be to extend this register to the >regional level. While the option of a United Nations register was >discussed, significant opposition continues to exist to a global register >on the basis that it is premature and the provision of such sensitive >information could undermine, not enhance, national security. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2001/dc2746.doc.htm >On specific points to be included in the recommendations to the >Conference, the representative of Pakistan promoted a proper marking >system for numbering weapons... Some tracking system was in the interest >of both producers and governments, which should keep the information under >their authority at all times. http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/CAB/smallarms/files/2001conf2e.pdf >Furthermore, some of these activities are already >conducted by the brokers or other participants in the >chain of the illicit trade, by using e-commerce channels >and networks. This e-commerce is frequently encoded >or encrypted, thus placing an extra burden on the law >enforcement institutions to detect it. -Declan ******** United Nations opens gun conference The United Nations opens a special session in New York focusing on the international market for small arms. The UN has already angered proponents of freedom with proposals to limit or prohibit private ownership of small arms. (07/09/01) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,29062,00.html UN investigating email from gun owners as 'threat' The United Nations is investigating whether irate letters and email from American gun enthusiasts protesting an upcoming conference on illicit trade in small arms constitute a security threat. The body has received about 100 complaints from Americans "who erroneously believe the conference seeks to infringe on their right to bear arms," said a U.N. spokesman. (07/05/01) http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAFR56XSOC.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 9 10:41:01 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Condit cracks Message-ID: <200107091741.NAA05372@www4.aa.psiweb.com> One odd thing about the Condit affair: the leaks. Oh, the leaks themselves aren't surprising. But are leaks now so ubiquitous that there's no comment at all on them? He's been interviewed three times, and "police sources" kept us informed each time. This time the interview included the FBI, and we promptly got reports that Condit was indeed having an affair. And: he hadn't broken it off when she disappeared. Ain't intense media pressure great? ---- JYA, stay away from the corpse sniffing dogs so they don't get confused. ;-) ---- # Subject: TV as an indicator... # From: Ray Dillinger # # I turned on a television set last night, for the first time in # many months. I was watching videotapes, but I caught fragments # of shows while tapes were rewinding, etc. # # American TV has taken a definite turn for the vicious since I # last watched. It's still pablum-and-opiates, but someone has # spiked it. Oh, it's always been there. Once again it is that time of year when every sort of news show dumps the latest "running of the bulls" gore story on us. This year an American female got "a foot long gash in her thigh", and we found out bulls can't make a 90 degree turn on wet stones. 7/8/2001 Newt Gingrich on Judith Regan Tonight: When I was a teenager, Isaac Assimov's Foundation series changed my life. From declan at well.com Mon Jul 9 10:43:14 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:43:14 -0400 Subject: U.N. security investigating irate email from U.S. gun owners Message-ID: <20010709134313.A32450@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 9 10:47:00 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:47:00 -0400 Subject: TV as an indicator... In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:20:32AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010709134700.B32450@cluebot.com> I remember seeing the Nazi agitprop films during anthropology classes in college. I'm not saying that modern TV is particularly splendid. But at the producers are capitalists trying to maximize ratings (and sex and insults may do that), not murderous government officials trying to justify mass extinction. -Declan On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:20:32AM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > I turned on a television set last night, for the first time in many > months. I was watching videotapes, but I caught fragments of shows > while tapes were rewinding, etc. > > American TV has taken a definite turn for the vicious since I last > watched. It's still pablum-and-opiates, but someone has spiked it. > > We're seeing an increasing focus on elitism, "survival of the fittest", > etc -- shows that present the "elimination" of the weak as a virtue, > and where game-show hosts masquerading as intellectuals intentionally > humiliate contestants. We are seing a separation of moral responsibility > from action and being conditioned to accept viciousness in authority > figures. We are also being conditioned to accept the idea that some > form of pseudo-intellectual "correctness" excuses viciousness. > > The tone is very similar to "entertainment" or "public education" > films that were produced by the propaganda arm of the german National > Socialist party in 1936-1938, which I remember from school but > which folk in Germany, or those who attend current-day American > schools, will not recognize due to censorship. We forget history, > believing that this will prevent us from repeating it rather than > the other way round.... > > The progression was reasonably simple, as I recall. > > First, the people are conditioned to accept "harsh reality", survival > of the fittest, etc. > Second, the people are conditioned to accept that, these things being > inevitable, hurrying them along is a virtue. > Third, some class of people are identified as being "inferior" and > pseudoscience upholding the claim is advanced. > > The shows I saw last night were deep into the second stage, and > universal public monitoring is now more pervasive here than it was > then and there, and our schools are raising a generation of people > who think monitoring and draconian weapons laws are normal, and > ideas not "politically correct" are being persecuted as vigorously > here as they were in Nazi Germany. > > The parallels continue... The "new media must be controlled" of > that era was radio and television -- now it's the internet. Same > basic debates going on -- most of the same outcomes happening. > > I am scared. > > > Bear From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 9 14:32:30 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 14:32:30 -0700 Subject: Find Waldo now! Message-ID: <3B4A22EE.456974A1@lsil.com> In adopting the black outfit the Black Bloc has made themselves easier to single out. What about doing something a little more sophisticated like, say, everyone wears jeans and sneakers and rolls a die to choose : Baseball cap, bandana, t-shirt color. Limit the garb to a small set of colors. red white blue green yellow black If it becomes clear that automated techniques are being used to study regions of an image, up the list of colors. Wear a secondary shirt color under the first. Use a 7-Eleven cellphone in a baggie to keep saliva off. Use sounds to coordinate movements. Sounds are tough to pinpoint in a crowd and it's tough to prove who whistled or whose airhorn was dropped on the street. Want to intimidate? An entire crowd chanting some 3-word slogan in unison is probably as scary as the black outfit. Let's see observers identify the presence or location of the group, assign membership to a particular person or track a subgroup through a crowd. Who's going to get three colors correct during a pursuit when those colors can be lost or changed on the fly? A single color is not so anonymous. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 9 06:02:39 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:02:39 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <1f3238b915617301adca843878b40548@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly > illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" > could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these Frankly, I think you're missing the point. > "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a The point of the bloc noir attire is to attempt establishing anonymity in meatspace. This is the issue we're discussing, and it's strictly orthogonal to protester's other agenda. > statement? Serious question. I'm just not seeing it. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 9 16:10:22 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:10:22 -0700 Subject: TV as an indicator... Message-ID: <3B4A39DE.6B8E14D5@lsil.com> > I remember seeing the Nazi agitprop films during anthropology classes > in college. I'm not saying that modern TV is particularly splendid. > But at the producers are capitalists trying to maximize ratings (and > sex and insults may do that), not murderous government officials > trying to justify mass extinction. > > -Declan > yup, $ not gas, but it is not necessarily wrong to be looking for subtle themes that might inadvertently disclose a deeper illness. > > On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:20:32AM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > I turned on a television set last night, for the first time in many > > months. I was watching videotapes, but I caught fragments of shows > > while tapes were rewinding, etc. > > > >[snip] > > > > First, the people are conditioned to accept "harsh reality", survival > > of the fittest, etc. > > Second, the people are conditioned to accept that, these things being > > inevitable, hurrying them along is a virtue. > > Third, some class of people are identified as being "inferior" and > > pseudoscience upholding the claim is advanced. > > > > The shows I saw last night were deep into the second stage, and > > universal public monitoring is now more pervasive here than it was > > then and there, and our schools are raising a generation of people > > who think monitoring and draconian weapons laws are normal, and > > ideas not "politically correct" are being persecuted as vigorously > > here as they were in Nazi Germany. > > > > The parallels continue... The "new media must be controlled" of > > that era was radio and television -- now it's the internet. Same > > basic debates going on -- most of the same outcomes happening. > > > > I am scared. > > > > Bear > > Maybe these things exist as undercurrents in all societies and occasionally they swirl a bit, setting loose a bit of swamp gas. Sometimes the whole pond turns over bringing all sorts of stinking muck to the surface. Maybe it's disturbing to recognize these undercurrents in the smiling, happy place you call home but they've been there all along. Mike From jd at army-of-one.org Mon Jul 9 16:17:36 2001 From: jd at army-of-one.org (John Doe #N) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:17:36 -0700 Subject: 1st Amend: press gets book o' Johns; computer edited image is protected speech Message-ID: <3B4A3B90.B745647D@semtex.com> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA8EZYRYOC.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MGA8EZYRYOC.html Type: text/html Size: 31004 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dbob at semtex.com Mon Jul 9 16:22:56 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:22:56 -0700 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops Message-ID: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> Its illegal to lie to cops (though not to be mute to them). Will Condit get busted for lying about bonking his intern or are congresscritters special objects? From YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com Mon Jul 9 15:11:29 2001 From: YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com ('Your Membership' Editor) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange Message-ID: <20010709221129.6962328CD9@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #426 (July 9, 2001) Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! You are a member in at least one of these programs
- You should be in them all!
BannersGoMLM.com
ProfitBanners.com
CashPromotions.com
MySiteInc.com
TimsHomeTownStories.com
FreeLinksNetwork.com
MyShoppingPlace.com
BannerCo-op.com
PutPEEL.com
PutPEEL.net
SELLinternetACCESS.com
Be-Your-Own-ISP.com
SeventhPower.com

______________________________________________________

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______________________________________________________

>> Q & A
   QUESTIONS:
     - Connecting credit card payments to site?

>> MEMBER SHOWCASES

>> MEMBER *REVIEWS*
     - Sites to Review: #127, #128 & #129!
     - Site #126 Reviewed!

______________________________________________________

>>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<<

Do you a burning question about promoting your website, html design,
or anything that is hindering your online success? Submit your questions
to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
Are you net savvy? Have you learned from your own trials and errors
and are willing to share your experience? Look over the questions each
day, and if you have an answer or can provide help, post your answer to
MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Be sure to include your signature file so
you get credit (and exposure to your site).
 

QUESTIONS:

From: richard burgess - suwat54 at yahoo.com
Subject: Connecting credit card payments to site?

Hi!!

I have been enjoying and learning via your information -
thank you. Now I am almost ready to launch my internet
business, but as I am quite naive to this, I can't
seem to find a way to connect visa or other credit
cards for payment for my service.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Suwat
suwat54 at yahoo.com
______________________________________________________

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______________________________________________________

>>>>>> MEMBER *REVIEWS* <<<<<<

Visit these sites, look for what you like and any suggestions
you can offer, and send your critique to MyInput
And, after reviewing three sites, your web site will be added to
the list! It's fun, easy, and it's a great opportunity to give
some help and receive an informative review of your own site.
Plus, you can also win a chance to have y our site chosen for
a free website redesign. One randomly drawn winner each month!
 

SITES TO REVIEW:

Site #127: http://www.allbizservices.com/win
Patty Baldwin
patty at allbizservices.com

Site #128: http://www.fabulousincome.com
Kay Strong
strongone at door.net

Site #129: http://www.mlmAnonymous.com
Tom Corbett
Tom.corbett at fuse.net

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SITE REVIEWED

Comments on Site  #126: http://www.EClassifiedshq.com
Carol Cohen
Opp0rtunity at aol.com
~~~~

The site is wonderfully set up and well organized. There is
a graphic on most of all the pages at the bottom that will
not load.
~~~~

This is the kind of site that should be using extensive meta tags
for search engines to find it, and I didn't see any tags on some of
the pages.  The site is neatly laid out, but doesn't seem to be getting
the traffic it should have, with empty categories in a couple of areas.

I would recommend adding meta tags, and looking for information on
ranking high with search engines and incorporate it into all the pages.
Also, think about what makes this site unique and what benefits it
has over other classified sites - and then be sure to let your visitors
know what they are! Add an introduction. Add a links page and
exchange links with other classified sites. Maybe do something like
"Add your ad and we'll send you a copy of 'How to Make Headlines
Work' absolutely free" or some kind of report to help people write a
better ad.
~~~~

Looks and feels very professional. The pages are very well structured
and are fast loading. In browsing them, I have found not many pictures,
where there are pictures, they do not give a very good look. It must be
possible to have a bigger picture of e.g. a home for sale.

I think this will give a better chance at success: attracting not only
people who place their ad, but also pleasing the people who enjoy
browsing the ads. They usually want immediately want to access
important information (which for me in most cases includes a clear
picture).

There are also some graphics missing on the main page.

As for the content: I hope more categories will get filled quick. It
might be a good idea to have the fee structure available before one
has to subscribe. I have not been able to find this information
without subscribing.

Finally, I find the site very well structured and easy to navigate.
~~~~

The present site as its name suggests is a classifieds site. And it
is a free site that is open to anyone who is interesting in posting
his advertisement. There are altogether 12 categories that one can
host his ad and they range from announcements to automobiles
and from personals to professional services. If you have seen a
regular classified site there is hardly anything that will continue to
interest you in this site. It is a run-of-the-mill site that doesn't have
anything to set it apart. 
~~~~

This site is colorful without being overpowering with the small
graphics and colorful logo. It was very easy to navigate and find
the general area for what I was looking for, but didn't find a lot of
ads yet and a lot of empty categories.  The site looks great but it
looks like you need to work on getting traffic to your site now.
______________________________________________________
moderator: Amy Mossel  Moderator
posting:   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
______________________________________________________

Send posts and questions (or your answers) to:
   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
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Copyright 2001 AEOpublishing

----- End of Your Membership Exchange ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ This email has been sent to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net at your request, by Your Membership Newsletter Services. Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.hfvw8m57&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14896 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 9 18:21:33 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:21:33 -0700 Subject: Find Waldo now! In-Reply-To: <3B4A22EE.456974A1@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010709182133.00973a40@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:32 PM 7/9/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >Wear a secondary shirt color under the first. > Look up the CIA's guide to disguises, somewhere on cryptome.org >Use a 7-Eleven cellphone in a baggie to keep saliva off. > Picture Homer Simpson in black... From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Mon Jul 9 17:29:29 2001 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:29:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Who Said This? In-Reply-To: <05eb01c107f0$af6594a0$6cc1fea9@computer> Message-ID: Voltaire. On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, Don White wrote: >Who said, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death . . . " >Thanks, Don White > -- You have paid nothing for the preceding, therefore it's worth every penny you've paid for it: if you did pay for it, might I remind you of the immortal words of Phineas Taylor Barnum regarding fools and money? Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 9 18:37:02 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:37:02 -0700 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> References: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> Message-ID: At 4:22 PM -0700 7/9/01, Dynamite Bob wrote: >Its illegal to lie to cops (though not to be mute to them). > It depends on the specific phrasings used. And whether he was under oath (for a "perjury" charge). If the FBI was present, a so-called "1001" violation could have occurred, though it is difficult to prove such lies. >Will Condit get busted for lying about bonking >his intern or are congresscritters special objects? Unlikely, though he may well lose his next election. Clinton lied repeatedly before a grand jury and he skated. If Clinton, er, Condit, killed the slut and dumped her body, he may skate as well. Most bodies buried deep in the woods are never found. I'll bet Clinton now wishes he'd done to Monica what he probably did to a bunch of his other enemies. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From levitte at openssl.org Mon Jul 9 11:10:19 2001 From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:10:19 +0200 Subject: [ANNOUNCE] OpenSSL 0.9.6b Message-ID: <20010709201018.A29837@openssl.org> OpenSSL version 0.9.6a released =============================== OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS http://www.openssl.org/ The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version 0.9.6a of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS. This new OpenSSL version is mostly a bugfix release and incorporates at least 55 changes to the toolkit (for a complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES). The most significant changes are: o Security fix: PRNG improvements. o Security fix: RSA OAEP check. o Security fix: Reinsert and fix countermeasure to Bleichbacher's attack. o MIPS bug fix in BIGNUM. o Bug fix in "openssl enc". o Bug fix in X.509 printing routine. o Bug fix in DSA verification routine and DSA S/MIME verification. o Bug fix to make PRNG thread-safe. o Bug fix in RAND_file_name(). o Bug fix in compatibility mode trust settings. o Bug fix in blowfish EVP. o Increase default size for BIO buffering filter. o Compatibility fixes in some scripts. We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6a to be the best version of OpenSSL available and we strongly recommend that users of older versions, especially of old SSLeay versions, upgrade as soon as possible. OpenSSL 0.9.6a is available for download via HTTP and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html): o http://www.openssl.org/source/ o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/ [1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time. The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just yet. The distribution containing the external crypto device support is popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental. It's been fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof. If run on a system with no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution. The distribution file names are: o openssl-0.9.6a.tar.gz [normal] o openssl-engine-0.9.6a.tar.gz [engine] Yours, The OpenSSL Project Team... Mark J. Cox Richard Levitte Andy Polyakov Ralf S. Engelschall Bodo M繹ller Holger Reif Dr. Stephen Henson Ulf M繹ller Geoff Thorpe Ben Laurie Lutz J瓣nicke From levitte at openssl.org Mon Jul 9 11:42:20 2001 From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:42:20 +0200 Subject: [ANNOUNCE] OpenSSL 0.9.6b Message-ID: <20010709204216.A2010@openssl.org> As a few people noticed, not only was the announcement of OpenSSL 0.9.6b sent more than once (due to, eh, technical error...), but the version number was 0.9.6a everywhere in the message body! So, with my deepest appologies, here is the correct text: Z .- ..bREADMEi arcs bint tmp竄_ webx .bash_loginy.bashrcz.muttrc{.muttrc.aliases| .procmail.log} .procmailrc~ .signature .viminfo.vimrcswork .bash_history.ssh .muttrc.postponed public_htmlpod2manD1perlpodbnbug.c@ OpenSSL.beta2.announce#CVSRoot癟 Octbio.tgz work2.tmpf7 fooT openssl-web.diffopenssl-web.tar?$openssl-0.9.6a-beta1.tar.gz礎(openssl-0.9.6a-beta1.tar.gz.md5穡,"openssl-engine-0.9.6a-beta1.tar.gz穢0&openssl-engine-0.9.6a-beta1.tar.gz.md5NEWS OpenSSL-arch.zip root.savedN NEWS-diff.txt .viminfo.tmp穡.procmail.lock.muttrc.postponed.lockck OpenSSL version 0.9.6b released =============================== OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS http://www.openssl.org/ The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version 0.9.6b of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS. This new OpenSSL version is mostly a bugfix release and incorporates at least 55 changes to the toolkit (for a complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES). The most significant changes are: o Security fix: PRNG improvements. o Security fix: RSA OAEP check. o Security fix: Reinsert and fix countermeasure to Bleichbacher's attack. o MIPS bug fix in BIGNUM. o Bug fix in "openssl enc". o Bug fix in X.509 printing routine. o Bug fix in DSA verification routine and DSA S/MIME verification. o Bug fix to make PRNG thread-safe. o Bug fix in RAND_file_name(). o Bug fix in compatibility mode trust settings. o Bug fix in blowfish EVP. o Increase default size for BIO buffering filter. o Compatibility fixes in some scripts. We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6b to be the best version of OpenSSL available and we strongly recommend that users of older versions, especially of old SSLeay versions, upgrade as soon as possible. OpenSSL 0.9.6b is available for download via HTTP and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html): o http://www.openssl.org/source/ o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/ [1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time. The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just yet. The distribution containing the external crypto device support is popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental. It's been fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof. If run on a system with no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution. The distribution file names are: o openssl-0.9.6b.tar.gz [normal] o openssl-engine-0.9.6b.tar.gz [engine] Yours, The OpenSSL Project Team... Mark J. Cox Richard Levitte Andy Polyakov Ralf S. Engelschall Bodo M繹ller Holger Reif Dr. Stephen Henson Ulf M繹ller Geoff Thorpe Ben Laurie Lutz J瓣nicke --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 9 18:56:12 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:56:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: > Its illegal to lie to cops (though not to be mute to them). > > Will Condit get busted for lying about bonking > his intern or are congresscritters special objects? Congresscritters and other political vermin are most assuredly "special objects". Is there *anyone* who has not realized this yet? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 9 18:58:06 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:58:06 -0500 Subject: CA facial recognition bill Message-ID: FACIAL RECOGNITION: On July 5 Sen. Bowen introduced a revised bill removing all provisions to which IBIA objected, most notably the warrant requirement. The IBIA letter contains a discussion of the Katz, Dionisio and Kyllo decisions @ http://www.ibia.org/newslett.htm Arizona also has a CCTV notice-bill: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/45leg/1r/bills/hb2470p.pdf ~Aimee From levitte at openssl.org Mon Jul 9 12:10:48 2001 From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:10:48 +0200 Subject: [ANNOUNCE] OpenSSL 0.9.6b Message-ID: <20010709211046.A3889@openssl.org> As a few people noticed, not only was the announcement of OpenSSL 0.9.6b sent more than once (due to, eh, technical error...), but the version number was 0.9.6a everywhere in the message body! So, with my deepest appologies, here is the correct text: OpenSSL version 0.9.6b released =============================== OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS http://www.openssl.org/ The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version 0.9.6b of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS. This new OpenSSL version is mostly a bugfix release and incorporates at least 55 changes to the toolkit (for a complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES). The most significant changes are: o Security fix: PRNG improvements. o Security fix: RSA OAEP check. o Security fix: Reinsert and fix countermeasure to Bleichbacher's attack. o MIPS bug fix in BIGNUM. o Bug fix in "openssl enc". o Bug fix in X.509 printing routine. o Bug fix in DSA verification routine and DSA S/MIME verification. o Bug fix to make PRNG thread-safe. o Bug fix in RAND_file_name(). o Bug fix in compatibility mode trust settings. o Bug fix in blowfish EVP. o Increase default size for BIO buffering filter. o Compatibility fixes in some scripts. We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6b to be the best version of OpenSSL available and we strongly recommend that users of older versions, especially of old SSLeay versions, upgrade as soon as possible. OpenSSL 0.9.6b is available for download via HTTP and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html): o http://www.openssl.org/source/ o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/ [1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time. The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just yet. The distribution containing the external crypto device support is popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental. It's been fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof. If run on a system with no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution. The distribution file names are: o openssl-0.9.6b.tar.gz [normal] o openssl-engine-0.9.6b.tar.gz [engine] Yours, The OpenSSL Project Team... Mark J. Cox Richard Levitte Andy Polyakov Ralf S. Engelschall Bodo M繹ller Holger Reif Dr. Stephen Henson Ulf M繹ller Geoff Thorpe Ben Laurie Lutz J瓣nicke From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 9 19:12:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:12:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: <20010709220418.A12433@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Congresscritters and other political vermin are most assuredly "special > > objects". Is there *anyone* who has not realized this yet? > > Right. It was former AG Thornburgh who noted on a talk show yesterday > that the cops still hadn't searched the 'critter's home (see mccullagh.org > for photos, natch). Standard procedure in any other investigation, > he said. > > -Declan I'm sure the locals aren't looking forward to pissing off one of their potential "agents of funding" on something as inconsequential as a simple bimbo killing... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 9 19:04:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:04:18 -0400 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:56:12PM -0500 References: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> Message-ID: <20010709220418.A12433@cluebot.com> On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:56:12PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Congresscritters and other political vermin are most assuredly "special > objects". Is there *anyone* who has not realized this yet? Right. It was former AG Thornburgh who noted on a talk show yesterday that the cops still hadn't searched the 'critter's home (see mccullagh.org for photos, natch). Standard procedure in any other investigation, he said. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Jul 9 19:07:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:07:33 -0400 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 06:37:02PM -0700 References: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> Message-ID: <20010709220733.B12433@cluebot.com> On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 06:37:02PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > It depends on the specific phrasings used. And whether he was under > oath (for a "perjury" charge). If the FBI was present, a so-called > "1001" violation could have occurred, though it is difficult to prove > such lies. Then again, there's always obstruction of justice, a catch-all Bellsian offense. See: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/condit_smith010709.html Feds Explore Condit Obstruction Allegation > If Clinton, er, Condit, killed the slut and dumped her body, he may > skate as well. Most bodies buried deep in the woods are never found. > I'll bet Clinton now wishes he'd done to Monica what he probably did > to a bunch of his other enemies. Heh. If I were especially conspiratorial, I'd mention that White House intern who was murdered at a Georgetown Starbucks. Ah, here's a cite: http://www.copi.com/articles/goddard/murder.html -Declan From decoy at iki.fi Mon Jul 9 13:36:08 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:36:08 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <9d149bbb193cf7d9dfc6f754189c0aea@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: >They've got a good idea -- one of the tactics used by cops for quite >awhile is to have undercover agents in the crowd who spot the *real* >troublemakers, leaders, etc. and then often an "affinity squad" will >target that individual. By making it very difficult to differentiate any >individuals, that whole cop tactic becomes useless. So there will be joint prosecutions, with each of the Bloc-ers receiving indictments for *all* of the "operations" performed. I also think such aggressive demonstrations will make the police even more trigger-happy than they are now. >The other part of the bloc is that by staying together in a tight group, >they can grab arrestees from the cops more easily. We used to have groups >of two or three who worked together this way, more is better. The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless the Bloc actually has enough muscle to overthrow something before then, which I highly doubt, their raising the stakes seems fairly unwise. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From noreply at cnnimail9.cnn.com Mon Jul 9 20:38:32 2001 From: noreply at cnnimail9.cnn.com (myCNN) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Important Announcement about myCNN Message-ID: <20010710033832.4347C3D198@cnnimail9.cnn.com> Dear myCNN.com User, Thank you for subscribing to myCNN.com. We've enjoyed bringing you the best customized news coverage from across the world. Starting this month, we will be combining our product with My Netscape, Netscape.com's personalized service, to provide an even better experience. CNN's unmatched news coverage will still be available to you as a My Netscape user and you'll have access everything you need to handle your day-to-day activities like tracking your stock portfolio, daily horoscope, music and movie news, links to your favorite sites, local news, weather, and online shopping deals. Please take time to visit My Netscape and personalize your Internet experience. You will need to choose a screen name that you will use for all Netscape services including a free Mail account, online Calendar, Instant Messenger and more. On July 23, 2001, myCNN.com will be discontinued and My Netscape will continue to provide you with the latest CNN news. Best regards, CNN and Netscape NOTE: CNN will continue to maintain all information obtained related to your mycnn.com account in accordance with our privacy policy, located at http://www.cnn.com/privacy.html. From info at xenoform.net Mon Jul 9 13:56:43 2001 From: info at xenoform.net (XenoFORM team.) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:56:43 +0300 Subject: XenoFORM Message-ID: <001701c108b9$a8960320$0100a8c0@ceejay> Greetings ! We have noticed your presence from our friends and would like to offer our services to you. My name is Oleg, and I`m the lead artist of the XenoForm workgroup. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5453 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 10 00:06:26 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:06:26 -0700 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: <20010709220418.A12433@cluebot.com> References: <3B4A3CD0.2F6B1033@semtex.com> <20010709220418.A12433@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 10:04 PM -0400 7/9/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:56:12PM -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >> >> Congresscritters and other political vermin are most assuredly "special >> objects". Is there *anyone* who has not realized this yet? > >Right. It was former AG Thornburgh who noted on a talk show yesterday >that the cops still hadn't searched the 'critter's home (see mccullagh.org >for photos, natch). Standard procedure in any other investigation, >he said. Had Condit been an unemployed chemist living with his parents in Vancouver, Washington, his house would have been raided by ninjas and his house tossed. But Condit is not that shlub. Instead, 10 weeks after being the obvious suspect in a missing person case (*), Condit has had plenty of time to sanitize his place. And to let time cause the trail to go cold. (* Most missing persons cases involving adults are cases where the adult has vanished because he or she does not want to be found. Or because they took off to Atlantic City without telling others. This case is quite different. Chandra Levy is almost certainly rotting in a grave out past Winchester. Whether Condit did it, or his angry wife did it, or he hired a hitter to do it is unclear at this time, but the "hands off" treatment he has gotten is in shocking contrast to the dawn raids delivered to Bell. And so it goes.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 10 00:10:41 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:10:41 -0700 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:12 PM -0500 7/9/01, wrote: >On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> > Congresscritters and other political vermin are most assuredly "special >> > objects". Is there *anyone* who has not realized this yet? >> >> Right. It was former AG Thornburgh who noted on a talk show yesterday >> that the cops still hadn't searched the 'critter's home (see mccullagh.org >> for photos, natch). Standard procedure in any other investigation, >> he said. >> >> -Declan > >I'm sure the locals aren't looking forward to pissing off one of their >potential "agents of funding" on something as inconsequential as a simple >bimbo killing... You've got that right. Washington is worried about the chains and concrete blocks around Chandra's ankles not being enough to keep her down. The bloated bureaucracy fears the bloated body of another bimbo floating to the surface. A bimbo eruption, as it were. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 9 19:00:33 2001 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 10 Jul 2001 02:00:33 -0000 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual Message-ID: <20010710020033.3063.qmail@nym.alias.net> Sampo Syreeni wrote: > The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad > anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control > forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the > protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless > the Bloc actually has enough muscle to overthrow something before then, > which I highly doubt, their raising the stakes seems fairly unwise. Maybe that would be a GoodThing@ -- violence by the government always radicalizes more people, and more people need to become aware that all those cops need killing. And things won't change until enough people are willing to pick up a gun. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 02:18:27 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:18:27 -0700 Subject: You ARE the weakest link. Good-bye! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>The progression was reasonably simple, as I recall. >> >>First, the people are conditioned to accept "harsh reality", survival >> of the fittest, etc. > >Teaching people this fact might do wonders for getting ten million >leeches off the welfare rolls and state subsidy scams, so I applaud >it. No argument there. But: >>Third, some class of people are identified as being "inferior" and >> pseudoscience upholding the claim is advanced. > >The dull are just that, dull. Not pseudoscience, but fact. That depends on how characteristics one uses to classify people. If it is on the basis of "Dullness" (mental or otherwise), then it is not pseudoscience. If one were, however, to classify all gun owners as ignorant rednecks, white supremacists or gang bangers based on a "fully scientific study" carried out under the auspices of the Southern Poverty Law Center, and that these individuals needed re-education in order to be fully reintegrated into modern society, would you say the same thing? -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 02:20:34 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:20:34 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: > >>They've got a good idea -- one of the tactics used by cops for quite >>awhile is to have undercover agents in the crowd who spot the *real* >>troublemakers, leaders, etc. and then often an "affinity squad" will >>target that individual. By making it very difficult to differentiate any >>individuals, that whole cop tactic becomes useless. > >So there will be joint prosecutions, with each of the Bloc-ers receiving >indictments for *all* of the "operations" performed. I also think such >aggressive demonstrations will make the police even more trigger-happy than >they are now. They have probably discussed this, and are willing to deal with it. After all, given the state of the American Press, this would be P.R. Suicide for the Police. >>The other part of the bloc is that by staying together in a tight group, >>they can grab arrestees from the cops more easily. We used to have groups >>of two or three who worked together this way, more is better. > >The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad >anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control >forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the >protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless Maybe in Finland, but here in the US, the government official that gave the orders to shoot a crowd of protestors would *not* be working much longer. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. 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If you would like to be removed from this list Please let us know by emailing us at Products at tonerBuys.com From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 02:31:45 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:31:45 -0700 Subject: Find Waldo now! In-Reply-To: <3B4A22EE.456974A1@lsil.com> References: <3B4A22EE.456974A1@lsil.com> Message-ID: >In adopting the black outfit the Black Bloc has made themselves easier >to single out. > >What about doing something a little more sophisticated like, say, >everyone wears jeans and sneakers and rolls a die to choose : > >Baseball cap, bandana, t-shirt color. > >Limit the garb to a small set of colors. red white blue green yellow >black (1) Black is the "traditional" color of the Anarchists. (2) Black has societal connotations that none of those do. (3) Black (or any really dark green/brown/blue) has other properties like making the wearer look a little thinner, causeing some slight shifts in color perception etc. It is also harder to tell different tints and shades of black apart, while if you said "Where a red shirt", there will be 37 different shades of red. (3) The point is not to be anonymous from the crowd around you, but to be anonymous within the group. These people aren't worried about post-analysis of the images, they don't think that far ahead. If they did, they wouldn't be that kind of anarchist (which I am assuming is basically some variant on anarcho-syndicalism). >Want to intimidate? An entire crowd chanting some 3-word slogan in >unison is probably as scary as the black outfit. Want to *really* intimidate? Hack the police's CnC network. >Let's see observers identify the presence or location of the group, >assign membership to a particular person or track a subgroup through a >crowd. Who's going to get three colors correct during a pursuit when >those colors can be lost or changed on the fly? The goal is not to be part of the crowd during a protest, but to be able to accomplish specific actions with a reduced likelyhood of arrest. Given adequite warning, and the proper training it wouldn't be hard for police to cut this group out of the herd and arrest all of them. As another poster mentioned, RICO could probably be brought to bear on them. >A single color is not so anonymous. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From news at newsletter.com Tue Jul 10 00:03:22 2001 From: news at newsletter.com (news at newsletter.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:03:22 -0400 Subject: Win a VW Beetle Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3924 bytes Desc: not available URL: From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 10 01:30:28 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops Message-ID: <200107100830.EAA06510@www8.aa.psiweb.com> wrote: # # I'm sure the locals aren't looking forward to pissing off one # of their potential "agents of funding" on something as # inconsequential as a simple bimbo killing... Yes, that's a factoid not to be dismissed. Today on the news it was clearly stated that the DC police answer to their funders and bosses: Congress. Congress owns the DC police. Only now are Republicans are starting to talk negatively about Condit... Tim May wrote: # # Whether Condit did it, or his angry wife did it, His wife is suffering from encephalitis. Tim May wrote: # # Washington is worried about the chains and concrete blocks around # Chandra's ankles not being enough to keep her down. The bloated # bureaucracy fears the bloated body of another bimbo floating # to the surface. # # A bimbo eruption, as it were. Heh-heh-heh. From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 10 07:50:00 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, petro wrote: >>On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: >> > > After all, given the state of the American Press, this would >be P.R. Suicide for the Police. It would, unless enough fear of these people can be spread among the general population. If you can make the people scared enough of X (whether X is anarchists or anybody else), the people won't protest when you start killing X. The US government, and various police forces, have used this principle extensively in the last decade or so; whenever they want license to kill X, they first demonize X in the press hoping to get lots of people scared of X. The problem with this approach is that when a lot of people, or people whom the scared people know, have gotten killed, people start to get scared of X where X is the police and their bosses.... Bear From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 10 05:13:35 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Find Waldo now! Message-ID: <200107101213.IAA16225@www1.aa.psiweb.com> petro # (1) Black is the "traditional" color of the Anarchists. And there was the black-robed Thule society members of Japan, image of their swastika: http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html The original name of the mafia in the US was "Black Hand". http://www.cloudband.com/frames.mhtml/magazine/archive.html # # EASTERN SWASTIKA CAUSES RAGE IN GERMANY [snip] # Ironically, the swastika is now a sensitive issue in China, too, # as it is also the symbol of the banned Falun Gong meditation # cult. Recently, when Falun Gong protesters in New York carried # banners bearing Buddhist swastikas, outraged New Yorkers mistook # them for Nazis. Let's make a cypherpunk trivial pursuit game! From honig at sprynet.com Tue Jul 10 08:32:48 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:32:48 -0700 Subject: blight: biochemwomdterror in dc, south america In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010710094949.02466ca0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010710083248.00964190@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:50 AM 7/10/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE Biological Weapons National Security, >Veterans Affairs and International Relations Subcommittee oversight hearing >on "Biological Weapons Convention Protocol: Status and Implications." At 10:46 AM 7/10/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[Also see an article in the same issue about a photojournalist who shipped >his film to an agency -- then learned it was standard practice for the >State Department (in reality probably the CIA) to come in and review the >film. http://cryptome.org/bigwood.htm --Declan] Though you don't mention it, these are related. Bigwood has been researching the planned use of biowarfare agents by the US et al. (Trying to make things easier for future historians...) From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 10 07:17:30 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:17:30 -0500 Subject: Reversal of spin in an optical vortex now reported... Message-ID: http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0710012.htm James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From PLGN2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 09:19:05 2001 From: PLGN2001 at yahoo.com (PLGN2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:19:05 Subject: FLORIDA BEACH HOME ----- $129.00 --- ???? Message-ID: <200107101712.f6AHCh113970@rigel.cyberpass.net> Florida Beach home $129 To see how you can receive a three bedroom, 2 bath, Octa-structure beach home, click here. This message is in full compliance with U.S. Federal requirements for commercial email under bill S.1618 and cannot be considered SPAM since it includes removal instructions. Remove requests honored promptly. Just reply with "remove" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 06:50:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:50:03 -0400 Subject: biochemwomdterror in dc Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010710094949.02466ca0@mail.well.com> HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE Biological Weapons National Security, Veterans Affairs and International Relations Subcommittee oversight hearing on "Biological Weapons Convention Protocol: Status and Implications." (Previously scheduled for July 9.) Witnesses: Ambassador Donald Mahley, special negotiator, Chemical and Biological Arms Control, State Department; Ambassador Tibor Toth, chairman, Ad Hoc Group of the States Parties to the Biological Weapons Convention Location: 2154 Rayburn House Office Building. 2 p.m. Contact: 202-225-5074 http://www.house.gov/reform From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 06:51:39 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:51:39 -0400 Subject: more biochemwomdterror in dc Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010710095128.02461ec0@mail.well.com> HEALTH National Governor's Assn. and the National Emergency Management Assn. Executive-level policy summit on the challenges and decisionmaking difficulties confronted in detecting and identifying a public health emergency of a bioterrorism nature, July 10-11 Highlights: 8:30 a.m. - Opening Remarks and Overview of Agenda 9:15 a.m. - Attorney General John Ashcroft, "Justice Department Partnership with the States" 11:45 a.m. - Introduction of the Tabletop Bioterrorism Exercise Location: Omni Shoreham Hotel, 2500 Calvert St., NW. Contact: Valid media credentials required; Christine LaPaille or Catherine Sebold, 202-624-5334 **REVISED** From dbob at semtex.com Tue Jul 10 09:57:01 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:57:01 -0700 Subject: rent seeking behavior -the final frontier Message-ID: <3B4B33DD.D86D63DF@semtex.com> Tuesday July 10 10:11 AM EDT L.A. County Targets Satellites in Out-of-This-World Tax Plan By NANCY VOGEL, TIMES STAFF WRITER SACRAMENTO -- Los Angeles County officials, realizing that there is no tax collector in outer space, hope to fill the void. Reaching 22,300 miles above the equator, boldly going where no tax collector has gone before, Los Angeles County Assessor Rick Auerbach is angling to impose property taxes on several satellites. Though never done before in California, the move is legal, say state and county tax attorneys. That's because, they say, nobody else is taxing the satellites and they are valuable property owned by a Los Angeles County-based company. Worth as much as $100 million each to Hughes Electronics in El Segundo, the satellites could bring in millions of dollars a year in taxes to schools and government. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/latimes/20010710/lo/l_a_county_targets_satellites_in_out-of-this-world_tax_plan_1.html From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 10 10:01:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:01:45 -0700 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 7:19 PM +0100 7/6/01, Ken Brown wrote: >"A. Melon" wrote: ... >> 'political crimes', it seems the best options are to simply leave the >> country altogether or forget about the personal freedoms granted by the >> constitution. > >> So my question is: where to go? > >> How does one >> 'drop out' of the US and keep all the good things one has become >> accustomed to? > >Maybe by being very rich and in effect living in a fortress? > >Or by making do with less money. There seem to be two basic approaches: 1. Obscurity. Don't rock the boat. Hide assets (judgement-proofing). Don't become a visible target. 2. Active Defense. Hire lawyers. Protect assets (judgement-proofing). I believe the "living in a fortress" solution falls into the second category. However, it's not very effective. Lawsuits cross property lines very easily...ask Dennis Rodman, Donald Trump, etc. Likewise, Waco showed that if law enforcement decides to make an example out of someone or some group (over fairly trivial charges, never even really proved), even a fortress compound will not help. In fact, any such fortress brings in more firepower, and charges of "barricading." The first approach is favored by some. It has drawbacks. Only "A. Melon" knows what his or her situation is, so advice is not possible. I will say that there is no country out there that seems to be beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement, pace the points we discuss so often about drug warriors, freezing of accounts, extradition, etc. Even Yugoslavia has just bowed to U.S. financing pressures (sending Milosevic to the Hague for a show trial). While I've never been to Anguilla, any hope that it is some kind of libertarian paradise has always been nonsensical. (I said this half a dozen years ago, of course, upon hearing the list of banned items, including "Playboy," and about the rule by the "seven families.") I used to live near Monaco as a kid, and have been back a couple of times. A police state, in the sense that residents are surveilled by cameras mounted in public places. What Stephenson would call a "burbclave," except heavily urbanized. The residents don't mind being taped and scrutinized--cuts way down on street crime. But not a place for one of a dissident outlook. Residency (and tax advantages) does not come easy, and people like us need not apply. And so it goes. I have no plans to leave. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Jul 10 10:14:11 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pigs Drive Man to Suicide and Steal His Estate Message-ID: <200107101714.f6AHEBw19703@artifact.psychedelic.net> More great moments in civil forfeiture. Cops entrap person. Person kills himself in jail, or at least, that's what the cops are reporting. Cops make profit of $750,000 by seizing estate using civil forfeiture laws. No messy trial. Cash for everyone. Grieving parents in no mood to quibble. ----- NEW YORK (AP) -- The estate of a man who committed suicide in jail while being held on drug charges has been ordered to pay $750,000 to the Nassau County district attorney's office. The ruling, part of a settlement in a civil forfeiture case, was the first in the state in which a prosecutor sought assets from a dead person, Newsday reported Tuesday. State law allows prosecutors to seize money from convicted felons if it can be established that the money was obtained illegally, said Rick Henshaw, spokesman for District Attorney Denis Dillon. Robert Vorbeck, 38, was arrested July 2, 1999, for allegedly selling cocaine to undercover officers, and committed suicide in his county jail cell 11 days later. He had faced life in prison if convicted of felony drug charges. The attorney for his estate, Steven Kessler, said Vorbeck's parents wanted to settle. ''They just wanted to put this behind them, move on and grieve,'' Kessler said. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From dog3 at charc.net Tue Jul 10 07:26:49 2001 From: dog3 at charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > After all, given the state of the American Press, this would > >be P.R. Suicide for the Police. > > > It would, unless enough fear of these people can be spread among the > general population. If you can make the people scared enough of Naw, it still wouldn't matter. Who lost their job over the Waco massacre? Who was even repremanded? Took a while, but eventually the gov managed to gloss it all over. No problem. Well, maybe something of a problem, but nothing time wouldn't cure, and no one had to resign, or even get in hot water. The distant echos of Ruby Ridge still reverberate, but in the end, nothing is comming of that either. From dbob at semtex.com Tue Jul 10 10:54:18 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:54:18 -0700 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) Message-ID: <3B4B414A.72B2E86C@semtex.com> Get a load of this lawyer's physics: "The property in question here is geostationary," said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary satellites sit above the equator in a fixed position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So the satellites we're talking about here are not movable property." http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-000056553jul10.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dstate From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 08:00:42 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:00:42 -0400 Subject: Condit's false testimony to cops In-Reply-To: <200107100830.EAA06510@www8.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 04:30:28AM -0400 References: <200107100830.EAA06510@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010710110042.A11346@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 04:30:28AM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Today on the news it was clearly stated that the DC police > answer to their funders and bosses: Congress. > > Congress owns the DC police. > > Only now are Republicans are starting to talk > negatively about Condit... Yeah, but they're going to have to be careful. Condit is a Dem, and so was Clinton, and there are some succulent parallels. But we haven't heard trash-talking about the Dems from the Repubs for two reasons: 1. Look at Hyde, Gingrich, Burton. If extramarital affairs were crimes, the GOP would be equally felonious. 2. Condit is a conservative Dem who often votes with the GOP. One of my highly placed GOP sources sent me a Condit joke yesterday with this attachment: "All I know of Condit personally is his voting record, which I like, so this is meant as non-partisan black humor." -Declan From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 10 11:23:12 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:23:12 -0700 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) In-Reply-To: <3B4B414A.72B2E86C@semtex.com> Message-ID: "Dynamite Bob" wrote: > Get a load of this lawyer's physics: > > "Geostationary satellites sit above > the equator in a fixed position; > they do not rotate around the Earth. Maybe he was making a very sophisticated argument about "frame of reference" (or maybe not). :-D S a n d y So the traffic cop pulls Albert Einstein over for speeding. "Do you know how fast you were going back there, buddy?" the cop asks. Albert looks quizzical and responds, "In what reference frame, officer?" From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 10 11:36:24 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) In-Reply-To: <3B4B414A.72B2E86C@semtex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: >"The property in question here is geostationary," >said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney >representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary >satellites sit above the equator in a fixed >position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So >the satellites we're talking about here are not >movable property." Since the equator does not pass through California, it follows that any property hanging above a point on the equator is NOT within the borders of California -- no matter how far up you extend them. So I doubt the claim of jurisdiction. Hmmm. Maybe their theory is that because it's not within another nation's border, property owned by US citizens is subject to American Taxes. That would be bad. Or maybe they're attempting to establish a doctrine that Americans can be charged property tax on property they hold outside the borders of the US regardless of whether it's in the borders of another country. That would be worse. At the very least it would provide substantial disincentive to retaining American citizenship. Now, if Sri Lanka wanted to charge property taxes for some prime orbital real estate, it might be able to make a better case -- it actually *has* prime orbital real estate. Bear From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Jul 10 11:49:29 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:49:29 -0700 Subject: Satellite taxes Message-ID: <3B4B4E39.389D2B3B@lsil.com> Um, wouldn't a natural way to assess property taxes be to first decide in which jurisdiction the property rests? For instance project the boundary of jurisdictions into space from the geometrical center of the earth. In which case it would probably be Brazil that should be collecting the taxes and Hughes would be writing off the taxes as a cost thereby reducing the taxes collected in California. Look for the locations over international waters to get crowded. And what about the surveillance satellites or Russian television satellites with polar orbits? Should we set up manned toll booths to exact a fee and do the agricultural inspection as they pass the projected borders? Or should we say that the jurisdiction is that from which the property was launched? BTW where do they launch these things from? Just another useless publicity hound. I hope the idea gets permanently mired in the courts. From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 10 11:53:56 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:53:56 -0700 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ray Dillinger wrote: > Now, if Sri Lanka wanted to charge > property taxes for some prime > orbital real estate, it might be > able to make a better case -- it > actually *has* prime orbital real > estate. Only in Arthur C. Clarks science fiction. The equator does not cross Sri Lanka. Now Ecuador (duh)... S a n d y From amaha at vsnl.net Tue Jul 10 10:14:39 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:14:39 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107101714.f6AHEcE12157@ak47.algebra.com> Never underestimate yourself.You are the most important thing in the universe. --Edward L.Kramer ======================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A Non-religious Organisation) From lisat at etransmail2.com Tue Jul 10 12:48:51 2001 From: lisat at etransmail2.com (Lisa Thornton) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:48:51 -0700 Subject: Executive Membership Message-ID: <200107102032.f6AKWdE03427@ak47.algebra.com> TENASU RESEARCH CORP. You are subscribed as: cypherpunks at algebra.com Good Afternoon! Become an Executive Member and save on all your purchases of toner supplies, software and blank check paper! Click on the link below and then on the "Become a Member and Save" banner: http://www.g7ps.com ******************** Special Promotion for our subscribers: FREE Products (no other purchase required): a) eXpressForms "forms publisher" ($129.99 value) b) Fortune "relationship manager" ($149.99 value) c) DataScan "business card & contact list scanner" ($149.99 value) d) TransForm Suite "automatic form creation and text OCR" ($59.99 value) Pick up your FREE products at the web site specified below. Click on the following link for details and to order (or call the 800 number below) http://www.g7ps.com ********************* Please do not hesitate to call 800-303-2620 for any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Regards, Lisa Thornton Productivity Services Director G7 Productivity Systems, Inc. lisat at etransmail2.com 800-303-2620 To change your communication preference please click on: http://www.globalzon2k.com/scripts/mf_de.asp?e=cypherpunks at algebra.com or simply reply to this Email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Jul 10 13:04:00 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:04:00 -0700 Subject: Meatspace Message-ID: Faustine FUDed: >And IMHO the best way to achieve anonymity in meatspace? A great place to >start would be by not deliberately engaging in "possibly illegal operations >on the street in an environment full of police". You're doomed before you >ever get started. But I could be wrong. Don't say I didn't tell you so. Bitch, you really are a pig, aren't you? Oh, don't protest, don't be an activist, that's much too dangerous, you don't stand a chance they'll get you, blah, blah, blah. Just a little Tokyo Rose for the cyberage. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Jul 10 13:07:32 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:07:32 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <2ec029eadac3911d87b984ce468a274c@melontraffickers.com> I've some friends who have, for a long time, complained about being surveilled, specifically phone tapped and/or house bugged. At first I thought it was just paranoia, but recent events have made me think otherwise. i One thing that happens almost invariably is that when groups meet at their home, the phone will ring, they answer and just hear a click and the phone goes dead. Also quite often the phone company appears and works on the nearest phone box on the street. So I was thinking an infinity transmitter was installed on their phone -- but putting in a new phone should get rid of that, and also, from what I know from years ago, installing an infinity transmitter requires a black bag job on the house. Or does it? Are there any new developments in this area that don't require internal access or work despite buying a new phone? I'm not talking about just wire taps, although that too is likely, but of devices to listen in the house. We borrowed a frequency meter, and went around the house with it, but are unsure how to use it effectively. It doesn't have a signal strength meter, so I'm thinking that if a bug is broad- casting the meter should just stick on that frequency? Any other clues on how to deal with this, other than hiring a professional? These people aren't drug dealers, don't have a lot of money. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Jul 10 10:34:27 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:34:27 -0400 Subject: Pigs Drive Man to Suicide and Steal His Estate In-Reply-To: <200107101714.f6AHEBw19703@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:14:11AM -0700 References: <200107101714.f6AHEBw19703@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <20010710133427.A25806@ils.unc.edu> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:14:11AM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote: > ... > Robert Vorbeck, 38, was arrested July 2, 1999, for allegedly selling > cocaine to undercover officers, and committed suicide in his county jail > cell 11 days later. He had faced life in prison if convicted of felony > drug charges. Heh. Probably the dope just wasn't good enough for the cops. From bounce-investorsedge-1655339 at lyris.investorsedge.net Tue Jul 10 13:42:44 2001 From: bounce-investorsedge-1655339 at lyris.investorsedge.net (InvestorsEdge) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:42:44 -0700 Subject: Banyan Capital Initiates Coverage on NTUN Message-ID: [BG Capital Group] July 10, 2001 Volume 1 Issue 4 [Image] Dear Investor A top analyst at an equity research firm has initiated independent coverage on the Neptune Society and we at Investors Edge believe the Neptune story and the company's success is well worth a little investigation. Key among the analysts findings were: A 67 % Increase In Revenues Over The Same Period In The Prior Year A 55 % Increase In Gross Margins Over The Same Period In The Prior Year An $8 Target Price, $9 Takeover Price, And An 'Aggressive Buy' Recommendation The Neptune Society is a solid company with experienced management, predictable profits, 'Pre-Need' contracts that have an annual compound rate of 32.7% from 1998 to 2000, and a $40 million trust fund that is expected to exceed $74 million by 2004. The Neptune Society was recently relisted on the OTC BB with the trading symbol NTUN and is now seeking to be listed on the NASDAQ for higher visibility and broader market exposure. Banyan Capital Markets LLC, an equities research firm, has issued an in-depth report on the Neptune Society. Highlights of the report are listed below followed by Banyan's press release and contact information. [Image] ------------------------------------------------------------------ * * * H I G H L I G H T S * * * Of The Research Report And Key Investment Considerations * The Neptune Society簧 is the only public pure play in the cremation segment of the death-care services industry and the company benefits from extensive goodwill from its reputation and high visibility brand name built during its 27-year history. * The compelling value proposition for cremation is its simple, dignified, environmentally friendly and economical ($799 to $1,299) alternative to traditional burial service ($5,000+). The cremation industry is taking market share away from traditional burials, increasing from six percent in 1975 to 24 percent in 1998 (0.55 MM cremations) and projected to reach 38.2 percent by 2010 (1.0 MM cremations). The $15 billion annual death care services industry is highly fragmented with the top six companies having a 25% market share and numerous acquisition opportunities available. * The Neptune Society serves customers in 35 major metro areas with 16 offices located in 6 states (CA, FL, WA, OR, NY and IA), excluding the corporate offices and a dedicated call center with 20 telemarketers in Tempe, AZ. One part of the company's business model includes opening offices in new locations (that meet stringent growth criteria) and making selective acquisitions. * The Neptune Society's new management team, assembled since 1999, has substantial industry expertise. The management has implemented a multi-pronged marketing strategy focused on selling Pre-Need cremation plans. Including direct sales over their Web site, the strategy also includes direct mail of approximately six million pieces being sent in 2001 and the support of five sales managers with approximately 200 independent, commission- only sales representatives providing follow-up. ------------------------------------------------------------------ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE COMPANY CONTACT: Gary R. Loffredo, Director (800) 535-7935 BANYAN CAPITAL INITIATES COVERAGE ON THE NEPTUNE SOCIETY WITH AN $8 TARGET PRICE, $9 TAKEOVER PRICE AND AN AGGRESSIVE BUY RATING -Top Analyst Reports On Strong Brand Name, Effective Marketing And Growth In Cremation Demand- Deerfield Beach, FL, July 10, 2001 Banyan Capital Markets, LLC announced today that it has initiated coverage of The Neptune Society簧, (OTC BB: NTUN), with a 12-month, $8.00 per share target price, a $9.00 per share takeover price, and an Aggressive Buy rating. The Neptune Society is the only pure play public company focused solely on the cremation segment of the death care services industry, said Louis M. Fischler, CFA, and VP of Investment Banking And Research at Banyan. We feel that The Neptune Society簧 name has tremendous brand equity due to its industry leadership over its 27-year history. Also, Neptunes fiscal first quarter results showed strong revenue growth and a significant improvement in operating cash flow, net of non-recurring and non-cash expenses, versus last years first quarter. The Neptune Society has developed a highly-effective, multi-pronged marketing program for selling Pre-Need cremation contracts that consists of direct mail campaigns, telemarketing (using its own call center), direct sales by independent contractors, and a new Web site. The $15 billion death care services industry is highly fragmented with the top six companies holding only a 25 percent market share. Traditional burials, which actually declined in the first quarter of 2001, are losing market to cremations. The Cremation Association of North America estimates the market share for cremation will increase from approximately 26 percent to over 36 percent in 2010, or approximately 1 million cremations per year. This growth can be attributed, in large part, to the average cost of a cremation only being 15 to 25 percent of the average cost of a traditional burial, as well as to greater acceptance by the general public based upon religious, environmental and other considerations, said Mr. Fischler. According to the report, The Neptune Society achieved a 67 percent increase in revenues in Q1-2001 versus Q1-2000. As a percentage of revenue, the company also increased its gross profit margin by 55 percent and improved its EBITDA by $742,000. About Banyan Capital Banyan Capital Markets, LLC is an NASD member broker-dealer that provides investment-banking services to middle market and early stage private and public companies. It recently started a division to provide equity research for its clients including the portfolio companies of Banyan Capital Partners, Inc., an affiliated principal venture capital(TM) firm. About the Neptune Society Headquartered in Burbank, CA., The Neptune Society Inc. is one of North Americas largest cremation specialists, and is the only publicly traded company dealing solely in cremation services. The Neptune Society, operating for nearly three decades with locations in California, Florida, New York, Washington, Iowa, Oregon and Arizona has provided thousands of cremation services and currently has in excess of 60,000 active contracts and approximately $37 million in trust in its unique Pre-Need program. The Neptune Societys goal is to provide a simple, dignified and economic alternative to the traditional funeral burial service system. Safe Harbor This press release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Readers/Investors are cautioned that the forward- looking statements are inherently uncertain, including statements related to the Companys business strategy, success of its acquisitions, its ability to implement its current business and growth strategies, the ability to implement acquisitions and start up offices into its existing operations, its ability to obtain sufficient financing to fund its proposed growth, the Companys ability to develop its brand name and effectively market its services and the Companys expectations for future success. Actual performance and results of operations may differ materially from those projected or suggested. The forward-looking statements contained herein represent the Companys judgment as of the date of this release, and the Company cautions the reader not to place undue reliance on such statements. These forward-looking statements should not be reprinted, reiterated nor considered an inducement for investment. Neptune Society is a registered trademark of Neptune Society Inc. ### ------------------------------------------------------------------ For a complete copy of the research report Click Here or Banyan Capital Markets (954) 571-7900 12403 Rockledge Circle, Boca Raton, FL 33428 or Gary R. Loffredo (800) 535-7935 Corporate Investor Relations [Image] Contact The Neptune Society Corporate Headquarters 3500 W. Olive Suite # 1430 Burbank, CA 91505 Telephone: 888-637-8863 E-mail: info at neptunesociety.com Visit The Neptune Society on the Web: Click here We invite you to investigate the Neptune Society, trading symbol NTUN, by using the following links. Links to more information: Recent SEC Filings click here Click here for Financial Chart For Trading Technicals click here For current stock quote click here Disclaimer: The information contained herein is based on news releases or other reports written and disseminated entirely by the subject company. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which Investors Edge has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. Although Investors Edge has not been compensated for dissemination and posting of this information, Investors Edge, its owners, agents affiliates and employees may from time to time have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. This constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject company. Write or call Investors Edge for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. Investors Edge and its owners, agents and employees are not investment advisors and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Investors Edge (Copyright 2001.) Safe Harbor Statement: This press release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Readers/Investors are cautioned that the forward- looking statements are inherently uncertain, including statements related to the Companys business strategy, success of its acquisitions, its ability to integrate its current business strategies into its existing operations and the Companys expectations for future success. Actual performance and results of operations may differ materially from those projected or suggested. The forward-looking statements contained herein represent the Companys judgment as of the date of this release, and the Company cautions the reader not to place undue reliance on such statements. These forward-looking statements should not be reprinted, reiterated nor considered an inducement for investment. Copyright 穢 2001 Investors Edge --- You are currently subscribed to investorsedge as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-investorsedge-1655339N at lyris.investorsedge.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15337 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rsw at MIT.EDU Tue Jul 10 10:43:01 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:43:01 -0400 Subject: rent seeking behavior -the final frontier In-Reply-To: <3B4B33DD.D86D63DF@semtex.com>; from dbob@semtex.com on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 09:57:01AM -0700 References: <3B4B33DD.D86D63DF@semtex.com> Message-ID: <20010710134301.B14753@positron.mit.edu> Dynamite Bob wrote: > Los Angeles County Assessor Rick Auerbach is angling to impose > property taxes on several satellites. A friend of mine would be willing to pay $15000 to anyone who could accurately predict the day of Mr. Auerbach's demise. Oh, wait. No digital cash, no AP. No anonymity, no AP. Damnit. (To LEOs reading this: this is a _joke_. It is supposed to be a tounge-in-cheek reference to a paper with which I am certain you are familiar---well, unless you are the damn troll who keeps posting "HoW D0 I m at k3 Bombzzzz" messages, in which case, I don't expect you to have any clue at all. In any case, if I had $15000, I'd be paying bills right now.) -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From dispatchrobot at freedownloadscenter.com Tue Jul 10 07:10:52 2001 From: dispatchrobot at freedownloadscenter.com (Free Downloads Center) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:10:52 GMT Subject: Download link for ADfilter Message-ID: <200107101410.OAA19740@freedownloadcenter.com> Thank you for using Free Downloads Center This is the link you requested: http://www.adfilter.com/download/adfsetup.exe If you want to download programs directly from their pages at Free Downloads Center without necessity to enter your email address then, please, visit http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/noemail.htm You can learn about ADfilter updates at: http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Network_and_Internet/Misc__Web_Browser_Tools/ADfilter.html If you want to always be informed regarding our latest updates, get FastFDC at http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/fastfdc.exe (8 kb). Using this little program you can add a link to our site in your menu. Also it's possible to set your start page to Free Downloads Center, so each time entering internet you'll be informed about the lastest news of software world. With Best Regards, Victor Sazhin aka VicMan From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 10 11:30:42 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > >> Frankly, I don't see how any kind of "short-term tactic for possibly >> illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police" >> could be good for anything more than the symbolic. What did these > > Frankly, I think you're missing the point. > >> "illegal operations" really accomplish apart from getting out a > > The point of the bloc noir attire is to attempt establishing anonymity > in meatspace. Sure, but to what end? It's hardly an irrelevant question... >This is the issue we're discussing, and it's strictly > orthogonal to protester's other agenda. Fine. So how much anonymity do you anticipate having after the feds squirt a little of some new "nonlethal" substance straight down the middle of the thing and your vinegar hankies just aren't up to it? Go ahead, rack yourselves up like billiard balls for them--I'm sure they'll appreciate how much easier it is cleaning up the sticky foam afterwards. Speaking of which, here's a great quote about "nonlethals" from an awesome (and frightening) book on urban operations, "The City's Many Faces" by Russell W. Glenn, quoting someone from LASD: "When I was in Somalia we had issues with foams, particularly sticky foam. I recall a conversation with our staff Judge Advocate that went something like this: "Gunner, what happens if you shoot someone in the face?" I said, "Sir?" He says, "Will it stick their lips shut?" I replied "yes Sir, it'll stick their lips shut." He says, "Well, they'll die." I said "yes Sir, and that's why *we* dont call it nonlethal."" So much for that. The other emerging crowd control technologies might make you reconsider, too. Worth a look!! And think of what a person really needs to be fully prepared to go into a riot situation--you'd be outfitted and equipped just like a fed. That's a clue for you right there. Of course, I guess you could always spraypaint your class IV body armor, locking plates, aramid fiber helmets etc. etc. pink or something. Or green. Now *that* would be a turtle suit worth talking about. But since nobody thinks its worth explaining why the bloc noir is more than symbolic, I guess it's a moot point. And IMHO the best way to achieve anonymity in meatspace? A great place to start would be by not deliberately engaging in "possibly illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police". You're doomed before you ever get started. But I could be wrong. Don't say I didn't tell you so. Something to think about... ~Faustine. From decoy at iki.fi Tue Jul 10 04:35:11 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:35:11 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, petro wrote: >>The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad >>anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control >>forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the >>protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless > >Maybe in Finland, but here in the US, the government official that gave >the orders to shoot a crowd of protestors would *not* be working much >longer. (Actually the police here have far more stringent requirements for even drawing a gun than they do over there in the States. But that's not really the issue.) The issue is escalation, and we know entirely well that there's been a lot of that in the last twenty or thirty years. We already have riot control measures (such as promiscuous use of OC dispensers, barricading entire city centres, and watercannons) which couldn't have been applied a few decades ago. It also seems that some of those measures are now beginning to be applied to peaceful protestors, a worrysome and relatively new development probably motivated by tough-on-crime attitudes. The police are already given broad discretion in their use of force. (For instance, to stop a fleeing suspect.) I fear that the mechanisms which brought us dedicated riot control forces could very well grant the police a catch-all licence to kill when "threatened" by a group of protestors. The Bloc attire and their interest in direct action constitute a highly plausible threat. So could any larger crowd of angry people who refuse to disband, if people ever start to think of protestors merely as "anarchists" or "hooligans". Of course I'm fully aware that this has nothing to do with the way US law enforcement is supposed to work. But it seems that people care increasingly little about the Bill of Rights. At least the trend has certainly been for the worse, with bigger protests, lots of cops around, force being used more often, and intense, largely unfavorable media attention towards the protestors. Extrapolating from this to wider police powers is no great feat of the intellect. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Tue Jul 10 04:35:11 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:35:11 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, petro wrote: >>The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad >>anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control >>forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the >>protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless > >Maybe in Finland, but here in the US, the government official that gave >the orders to shoot a crowd of protestors would *not* be working much >longer. (Actually the police here have far more stringent requirements for even drawing a gun than they do over there in the States. But that's not really the issue.) The issue is escalation, and we know entirely well that there's been a lot of that in the last twenty or thirty years. We already have riot control measures (such as promiscuous use of OC dispensers, barricading entire city centres, and watercannons) which couldn't have been applied a few decades ago. It also seems that some of those measures are now beginning to be applied to peaceful protestors, a worrysome and relatively new development probably motivated by tough-on-crime attitudes. The police are already given broad discretion in their use of force. (For instance, to stop a fleeing suspect.) I fear that the mechanisms which brought us dedicated riot control forces could very well grant the police a catch-all licence to kill when "threatened" by a group of protestors. The Bloc attire and their interest in direct action constitute a highly plausible threat. So could any larger crowd of angry people who refuse to disband, if people ever start to think of protestors merely as "anarchists" or "hooligans". Of course I'm fully aware that this has nothing to do with the way US law enforcement is supposed to work. But it seems that people care increasingly little about the Bill of Rights. At least the trend has certainly been for the worse, with bigger protests, lots of cops around, force being used more often, and intense, largely unfavorable media attention towards the protestors. Extrapolating from this to wider police powers is no great feat of the intellect. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From dbob at semtex.com Tue Jul 10 14:51:50 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:51:50 -0700 Subject: freq meter vs. spectrum analyzer for sweeping Message-ID: <3B4B78F6.CEE20FCE@semtex.com> Some Melon wrote: > We borrowed a frequency meter, and went around the house with it, but are unsure how to use it effectively. It doesn't have a signal strength meter, so I'm thinking that if a bug is broad- casting the meter should just stick on that frequency?< You mean frequency counter. It counts the Hertz of the local strongest signal. You need a spectrum analyzer, which shows you signal strength vs. frequency. And you need to worry about intermittent ('burst') bugs. And WTF is an 'infinity' transmitter? From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Jul 10 12:05:37 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:05:37 -0400 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:36 PM > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: > > >"The property in question here is geostationary," > >said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney > >representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary > >satellites sit above the equator in a fixed > >position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So > >the satellites we're talking about here are not > >movable property." > Actually, there's a curious legal precedent which might help the satellite holders. One of the NASA probes (perhaps the atmospheric probe to Jupiter? Did we have a Venus probe?) had an instrument window made of diamond. The fairly large diamond used drew considerable import duty when it was brought into the US, but that duty was returned after the launch, since the diamond had been 're-exported'. This seems to my IANAL logic to set a precedent that an asset in space is not in the US. > Since the equator does not pass through California, it > follows that any property hanging above a point on the > equator is NOT within the borders of California -- no > matter how far up you extend them. So I doubt the > claim of jurisdiction. Hmmm. Maybe their theory is that > because it's not within another nation's border, property > owned by US citizens is subject to American Taxes. That > would be bad. > > Or maybe they're attempting to establish a doctrine that > Americans can be charged property tax on property they > hold outside the borders of the US regardless of whether > it's in the borders of another country. That would be > worse. At the very least it would provide substantial > disincentive to retaining American citizenship. [...] > Bear > Actually, the USG doesn't give a damn whether it's in the US, in another country , or neither. If they want to, they'll tax it. Expatriate US citizens have to pay income tax on foreign earned income to the US (I think only the US, Egypt, and the Phillipines do this). Even if you give up your US citizenship, the IRS expects to tax you for a further 10 years if your net worth is over $350k when you vacate your US citizenship. If you don't pay up, they might not be able to extradite you if you're now a foreigner, but they'll go after your assets in the US, or arrest you if you set foot on US soil. (13 years as an expatriate leads to some specialized knowledge :-) Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Jul 10 12:05:37 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:05:37 -0400 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:36 PM > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: > > >"The property in question here is geostationary," > >said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney > >representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary > >satellites sit above the equator in a fixed > >position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So > >the satellites we're talking about here are not > >movable property." > Actually, there's a curious legal precedent which might help the satellite holders. One of the NASA probes (perhaps the atmospheric probe to Jupiter? Did we have a Venus probe?) had an instrument window made of diamond. The fairly large diamond used drew considerable import duty when it was brought into the US, but that duty was returned after the launch, since the diamond had been 're-exported'. This seems to my IANAL logic to set a precedent that an asset in space is not in the US. > Since the equator does not pass through California, it > follows that any property hanging above a point on the > equator is NOT within the borders of California -- no > matter how far up you extend them. So I doubt the > claim of jurisdiction. Hmmm. Maybe their theory is that > because it's not within another nation's border, property > owned by US citizens is subject to American Taxes. That > would be bad. > > Or maybe they're attempting to establish a doctrine that > Americans can be charged property tax on property they > hold outside the borders of the US regardless of whether > it's in the borders of another country. That would be > worse. At the very least it would provide substantial > disincentive to retaining American citizenship. [...] > Bear > Actually, the USG doesn't give a damn whether it's in the US, in another country , or neither. If they want to, they'll tax it. Expatriate US citizens have to pay income tax on foreign earned income to the US (I think only the US, Egypt, and the Phillipines do this). Even if you give up your US citizenship, the IRS expects to tax you for a further 10 years if your net worth is over $350k when you vacate your US citizenship. If you don't pay up, they might not be able to extradite you if you're now a foreigner, but they'll go after your assets in the US, or arrest you if you set foot on US soil. (13 years as an expatriate leads to some specialized knowledge :-) Peter Trei From hseaver at ameritech.net Tue Jul 10 13:12:26 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:12:26 -0500 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) References: Message-ID: <3B4B619D.5E31CDB4@ameritech.net> Kalifornica charges property taxes on live-aboard boats which haven't been in their waters or registered in their state for years -- or tries to, on the basis that the owner *used* to live there, even if his current residence if elsewhere. Or so people on the boating lists complain. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Jul 10 12:24:20 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:24:20 -0400 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Trei, Peter > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:05 PM > To: 'Ray Dillinger' > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: RE: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > ---------- > > From: Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:36 PM > > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Subject: Re: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: > > > > >"The property in question here is geostationary," > > >said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney > > >representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary > > >satellites sit above the equator in a fixed > > >position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So > > >the satellites we're talking about here are not > > >movable property." > > > Actually, there's a curious legal precedent which might > help the satellite holders. One of the NASA probes (perhaps > the atmospheric probe to Jupiter? Did we have a Venus probe?) > had an instrument window made of diamond. The fairly large > diamond used drew considerable import duty when it was > brought into the US, but that duty was returned after the > launch, since the diamond had been 're-exported'. This > seems to my IANAL logic to set a precedent that an > asset in space is not in the US. > ...you can find anything on the net if you choose to look.... This was the Pionner Venus Orbiter, built by Hughes and launched in 1978. http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/diamond.txt ----------------- FROM: "Dr. Mark W. Lund" SUBJECT: Re: Who makes big diamond windows? DATE: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:11:44 -0600 ORGANIZATION: MOXTEK, Inc. NEWSGROUPS: sci.optics Nelson Wallace wrote: > "Big" meaning around 1 inch diameter, say 0.1" thick. > Regards, Nelson Wallace Wow, you TRW-government-contracting-no-holds-barred- success-at-any-cost-if-you-have-to-ask-you-can't-afford-it guys have all the fun. Hughes Aircraft bought the diamond window on the Venus probe nephelometer from DeBeers. I remember that it was suggested to the principle investigator that he could save a lot of money if he used two smaller windows, but he was worried that they might not be the same temperature, so he splurged. I also remember that when the probe landed on Venus the US Customs people refunded the customs duty, since the diamond had been re-exported. ------------------------------------ From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Jul 10 12:24:20 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:24:20 -0400 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Trei, Peter > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:05 PM > To: 'Ray Dillinger' > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: RE: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > ---------- > > From: Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:36 PM > > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Subject: Re: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: > > > > >"The property in question here is geostationary," > > >said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney > > >representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary > > >satellites sit above the equator in a fixed > > >position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So > > >the satellites we're talking about here are not > > >movable property." > > > Actually, there's a curious legal precedent which might > help the satellite holders. One of the NASA probes (perhaps > the atmospheric probe to Jupiter? Did we have a Venus probe?) > had an instrument window made of diamond. The fairly large > diamond used drew considerable import duty when it was > brought into the US, but that duty was returned after the > launch, since the diamond had been 're-exported'. This > seems to my IANAL logic to set a precedent that an > asset in space is not in the US. > ...you can find anything on the net if you choose to look.... This was the Pionner Venus Orbiter, built by Hughes and launched in 1978. http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/diamond.txt ----------------- FROM: "Dr. Mark W. Lund" SUBJECT: Re: Who makes big diamond windows? DATE: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:11:44 -0600 ORGANIZATION: MOXTEK, Inc. NEWSGROUPS: sci.optics Nelson Wallace wrote: > "Big" meaning around 1 inch diameter, say 0.1" thick. > Regards, Nelson Wallace Wow, you TRW-government-contracting-no-holds-barred- success-at-any-cost-if-you-have-to-ask-you-can't-afford-it guys have all the fun. Hughes Aircraft bought the diamond window on the Venus probe nephelometer from DeBeers. I remember that it was suggested to the principle investigator that he could save a lot of money if he used two smaller windows, but he was worried that they might not be the same temperature, so he splurged. I also remember that when the probe landed on Venus the US Customs people refunded the customs duty, since the diamond had been re-exported. ------------------------------------ From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 12:37:19 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:37:19 -0400 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: ; from a3495@cotse.com on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:30:42PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010710153719.A13130@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:30:42PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > Fine. So how much anonymity do you anticipate having after the feds squirt > a little of some new "nonlethal" substance straight down the middle of the > thing and your vinegar hankies just aren't up to it? Go ahead, rack Right. That's the problem with the Black Blockian protests: They're using 1960s technology against 2001 police arsenals. -Declan From pzakas at toucancapital.com Tue Jul 10 13:05:44 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:05:44 -0400 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: you know one of the things i'd like to do is go into the waste removal business in orbit. lots of junk up there...would like to launch a satellite with a long finger attached to it and poke stuff out of orbit. the "nudge". who'd pay? it would be quite an unfornate event if a satellite were mistaken as a piece of debris...or if debris suddenly appeared in a launch window ;) phillip > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Trei, Peter > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:24 PM > To: 'Ray Dillinger' > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: RE: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > ---------- > > From: Trei, Peter > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:05 PM > > To: 'Ray Dillinger' > > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Subject: RE: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:36 PM > > > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > > Subject: Re: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Dynamite Bob wrote: > > > > > > >"The property in question here is geostationary," > > > >said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney > > > >representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary > > > >satellites sit above the equator in a fixed > > > >position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So > > > >the satellites we're talking about here are not > > > >movable property." > > > > > Actually, there's a curious legal precedent which might > > help the satellite holders. One of the NASA probes (perhaps > > the atmospheric probe to Jupiter? Did we have a Venus probe?) > > had an instrument window made of diamond. The fairly large > > diamond used drew considerable import duty when it was > > brought into the US, but that duty was returned after the > > launch, since the diamond had been 're-exported'. This > > seems to my IANAL logic to set a precedent that an > > asset in space is not in the US. > > > ...you can find anything on the net if you choose to look.... > > This was the Pionner Venus Orbiter, built by Hughes and > launched in 1978. > > > http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/diamond.txt > ----------------- > FROM: "Dr. Mark W. Lund" > SUBJECT: Re: Who makes big diamond windows? > DATE: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:11:44 -0600 > ORGANIZATION: MOXTEK, Inc. > NEWSGROUPS: sci.optics > > Nelson Wallace wrote: > > > "Big" meaning around 1 inch diameter, say 0.1" thick. > > Regards, Nelson Wallace > > Wow, you TRW-government-contracting-no-holds-barred- > success-at-any-cost-if-you-have-to-ask-you-can't-afford-it guys > have all the > fun. > > Hughes Aircraft bought the diamond window on the Venus probe > nephelometer from DeBeers. I remember that it was suggested to > the principle investigator that he could save a lot of money if he > used two smaller windows, but he was worried that they might not > be the same temperature, so he splurged. I also remember that when > the probe landed on Venus the US Customs people refunded the > customs duty, since the diamond had been re-exported. > > > ------------------------------------ > From R-2-57866-2192399-2-28-US2-5757089C at xmr3.com Tue Jul 10 13:24:34 2001 From: R-2-57866-2192399-2-28-US2-5757089C at xmr3.com (Consumer Electronics Association -Communications) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:24:34 -0400 Subject: CEA Applauds Appeals Court Ruling in Over-the-Air Reception Devices Case Message-ID: FOR RELEASE Contact: Jeff Joseph or Jenny Miller tel: (703) 907-7664 tel: (703) 907-7079 e-mail: jjoseph at ce.org e-mail: jmiller at ce.org http://www.CE.org CEA Applauds Appeals Court Ruling in Over-the-Air Reception Devices Case Decision Upholds FCC Order Prohibiting Restrictions on Satellite Dish Placement Arlington, Va., July 10, 2001 - The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) applauded the U.S. Appeals Court ruling Friday, which upheld Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulations prohibiting restrictions on certain over-the-air television reception and direct-to-home satellite services. Petitioners in the case, including building owners and managers, had questioned the agency's statutory authority and had objected to the FCC's rules concerning over-the-air reception devices (OTARD) that were promulgated following enactment of the 1996 Telecommunications Act and amended in 1998 to extend to leaseholders. The three District of Columbia appellate court judges decidedly rejected the petitioners' claims, delivering a victory to the FCC. CEA celebrated the decision as a victory for consumers who may install satellite dishes and equipment despite landlord opposition in order to enjoy freely the benefits of digital access and entertainment. "This is a big win for consumers. The 'unambiguously expressed intent of Congress' was clear in Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996," said CEA President and CEO Gary Shapiro. "The Court has upheld the right of all Americans - including renters - to have access to the latest and best consumer technologies, such as direct-to-home satellite. As the original FCC Order recognized, full participation in the digital revolution shouldn't be conditioned on property ownership." The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) represents more than 650 U.S. companies involved in the design, development, manufacturing and distribution of audio, video, mobile electronics, wireless and landline communications, information technology, multimedia and accessory products, as well as related services that are sold through consumer channels. Combined, these companies account for more than $70 billion in annual sales. CEA also sponsors and manages the International CES - Your Source for Workstyle and Lifestyle Technology. All profits from CES are reinvested into industry services, including technical training and education, industry promotion, engineering standards development, market research and legislative advocacy. UPCOMING EVENTS DTV Summit - Is Laissez-Faire Fair? July 24, 2001, Washington, DC CEA Fall Conference and Industry Forum October 14-17, 2001, La Quinta CA Digital Car Conference and Exhibition October 16-18, 2001, Detroit, MI 2002 International CES - Your Source for Workstyle and Lifestyle Technology January 8-11, 2002, Las Vegas, NV ### I:\RELEASES\DTV & DTV SUMMIT\FCC.OTARD.doc Consumer Electronics Association -Communications 703-907-7041 Phone --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you would prefer not to receive further messages from this sender: 1. Click on the Reply button. 2. Replace the Subject field with the word REMOVE. 3. Click the Send button. You will receive one additional e-mail message confirming your removal. ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 13:25:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:25:47 -0400 Subject: [R-2-57866-2192399-2-28-US2-5757089C@xmr3.com: CEA Applauds Appeals Court Ruling in Over-the-Air Reception Devices Case] Message-ID: <20010710162547.A17172@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Consumer Electronics Association -Communications ----- From cofor_d at wanadoo.es Tue Jul 10 07:26:54 2001 From: cofor_d at wanadoo.es (cofor) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:26:54 +0200 Subject: TE INFORMAMOS Message-ID: <200107101714.f6AHE7114006@rigel.cyberpass.net> Jacarilla 8.7.2001.Publicidad/Enseanza a Distancia Hola que tal: El motivo de la presente carta es informarte de la posibilidad de poder realizar alg繳n curso a distancia de tu inter矇s, cursos relacionados con tu trabajo inquietudes y ocio.ect.El conocimiento es el mayor patrimonio de que podemos disponer. Nos dedicamos desde 1996.a impartir cursos a distancia disponemos de una amplia variedad de cursos sencillos para poder seguirlos comodamente desde cualquier parte del mundo y a unos precios muy competitivos. NET ------------ Comercio Electr籀nico Redes y Sistemas Sistemas Servers Diseo Web Direccion Empresa Net Management Business BUSINESS ------------ Gestor Comercial y Marketing Marketing Mix Relaciones Publicas Direcci籀n Planificaci籀n de Empresa Recursos Humanos Comercio Exterior Direccion Comercial Gesti籀n Medio Ambiental Control de Calidad Management Business Direcci籀n de Restaurantes ---------------------------------- SALUD SUPERACION PERSONAL ------------------------------------- Superaci籀n de Estr矇s Psicoterapia Diet矇tica y Nutrici籀n Dieta Mediterr獺nea Nutr穩 terapia y Salud Nutrici籀n y Deporte Cocina Sana Monitor Aer籀bic-Fittnes Monitor Yoga Tai-Chi Hipnoterapia Quiromasaje y Reflexoterapia Aromaterapia Cosm矇tica Natural Hierbas Medicinales -------------------------------------- Los cursos son de 200.horas lectivas el precio standar por curso es de 35.000.pts.Espaa a plazos.Iberoamerica 150.usa dolar aplazados. El Diploma: "T矇cnico Especialista" El tiempo aproximado por curso dependiendo de los conocimientos en areas similares de que se disponga,es entre 2-6.meses.aprox. Si desean que les ampliemos informaci籀n pueden enviar un e-mail les contestaremos con la mayor brevedad y les indicaremos nuestro espacio web que se encuentra en reformas. Envie e-mail: COFOTR at terra.es Sin otra que rogarte me envies un e-mail si estas interesado/a Te enviamos un saludo. Merce Sanchez Gesti籀n Integral 1.S.L C/ Virgen de Bel矇n, 30 03310 Jacarilla (Alicante)ESPAA Si desea no recibir mas e-mail.: MAIL_89 at terra.es From cofor_d at wanadoo.es Tue Jul 10 07:27:04 2001 From: cofor_d at wanadoo.es (cofor) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:27:04 +0200 Subject: TE INFORMAMOS Message-ID: <200107101421.f6AELQq20492@pax.minder.net> Jacarilla 8.7.2001.Publicidad/Enseanza a Distancia Hola que tal: El motivo de la presente carta es informarte de la posibilidad de poder realizar alg繳n curso a distancia de tu inter矇s, cursos relacionados con tu trabajo inquietudes y ocio.ect.El conocimiento es el mayor patrimonio de que podemos disponer. Nos dedicamos desde 1996.a impartir cursos a distancia disponemos de una amplia variedad de cursos sencillos para poder seguirlos comodamente desde cualquier parte del mundo y a unos precios muy competitivos. NET ------------ Comercio Electr籀nico Redes y Sistemas Sistemas Servers Diseo Web Direccion Empresa Net Management Business BUSINESS ------------ Gestor Comercial y Marketing Marketing Mix Relaciones Publicas Direcci籀n Planificaci籀n de Empresa Recursos Humanos Comercio Exterior Direccion Comercial Gesti籀n Medio Ambiental Control de Calidad Management Business Direcci籀n de Restaurantes ---------------------------------- SALUD SUPERACION PERSONAL ------------------------------------- Superaci籀n de Estr矇s Psicoterapia Diet矇tica y Nutrici籀n Dieta Mediterr獺nea Nutr穩 terapia y Salud Nutrici籀n y Deporte Cocina Sana Monitor Aer籀bic-Fittnes Monitor Yoga Tai-Chi Hipnoterapia Quiromasaje y Reflexoterapia Aromaterapia Cosm矇tica Natural Hierbas Medicinales -------------------------------------- Los cursos son de 200.horas lectivas el precio standar por curso es de 35.000.pts.Espaa a plazos.Iberoamerica 150.usa dolar aplazados. El Diploma: "T矇cnico Especialista" El tiempo aproximado por curso dependiendo de los conocimientos en areas similares de que se disponga,es entre 2-6.meses.aprox. Si desean que les ampliemos informaci籀n pueden enviar un e-mail les contestaremos con la mayor brevedad y les indicaremos nuestro espacio web que se encuentra en reformas. Envie e-mail: COFOTR at terra.es Sin otra que rogarte me envies un e-mail si estas interesado/a Te enviamos un saludo. Merce Sanchez Gesti籀n Integral 1.S.L C/ Virgen de Bel矇n, 30 03310 Jacarilla (Alicante)ESPAA Si desea no recibir mas e-mail.: MAIL_89 at terra.es From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 10 15:36:19 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:36:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <0ead56316de7ccd5606b03d376f0f6be@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Can you see a fundamental difference between activism/protest/resistance > that makes a difference and "illegal operations on the street in an > environment full of police"? > > What's the point of putting yourself into a situation where you have no > chance of accomplishing anything besides getting arrested(or killed)and > making some sort of symbolic statement--that doesn't fundamentally affect a > single soul beyond whoever gets their property damaged? > > Why does pointing out the myriad ways it's possible for unarmed people to > get swatted like flies by provoking people with superior gear and training > automatically mean one in any way identifies with the swatters? > > Do you really think being an idealist should preclude you from reasoning > like a realist? Ghandi. Womens Sufferage (US). Jim Crow Laws (US). Vietnam. Civil Rights in the 60's. The point being, there are plenty of historical precidence where this sort of behaviour has led directly to the change desired by the protestors against a much better armed and entrenched foe. Highly heirarchial defence mechanisms, such as you tout as invincible, work just fine when faced with that sort of competition. When faced with a more distributed and idealistic confrontation they eventualy fail. The question is not one of tactics, but of spirits. Sun-Tzu should be added to your summer reading list. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 10 15:51:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:51:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (Seattle Physical Meet) BOUNCE cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com: Header field too long (>1024) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:49:49 -0500 From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com: Header field too long (>1024) >From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com Tue Jul 10 17:49:46 2001 Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01125 for cypherpunks at ssz.com; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:49:46 -0500 Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [216.34.245.2]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01103 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:48:50 -0500 Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06816; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (cyberpass.net [216.34.245.6]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06790 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by rigel.cyberpass.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f6B1W2109043 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:32:02 -0700 Received: from codehead (user-uini6pg.dsl.mindspring.com [165.121.27.48]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12840; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107102238.SAA12840 at blount.mail.mindspring.net> From: seacypherpunks at ix.netcom.com To: 0belisk at www.alaskashops.net, albert at achtung.com, firegirl at drizzle.com, Bill at Healy.net, BitGeek , blanc at cnw.com, Brian Brewer , Bunnybait , carolmiller at alt.net, ccaputo at alt.net, codehead at ix.netcom.com, Computer Cryptology , Cypherpunks , torin at daft.com, Dennis Glatting , dickl at eskimo.com, libertydon43 at aol.com, "E. Shaun Russell" , Ethan Ackerman , gary at wlfnet.org, grs at binary.com, jack at netgate.net, jam at afn.org, jevans at solutionsIQ.com, cismic at msn.com, kgriff at swva.net, King County LP , larry at privacyteam.com, donriggs at centurytel.net, Leonard Janke , LPSeattle , "Marc V. Ridenour" , allyn at well.com, mra at pobox.com, Matt Thomlinson , freematt at coil.com, meetingpunks-planners at cryptorights.org, Metalhead , wolf at priori.net, Michael Hamilton , mcw at v6tech.net, mpd at cyberspace.org, pablos at shmoo.com, hades at elsewhere.org, rick.gallegos at gte.net, rodney at tillerman.to, Sandy Sandfort , Steve Phillips , tda at noc.santacruz.org, tboyle at rosehill.net, vince at weg.net, weidai at eskimo.com, William Sheehan Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:34:42 -0700 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Seattle Cypherpunks, July 14, 2001, Bellevue, WA Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Seattle Cypherpunks July 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement General Info: DATE: Saturday 14 July 2001 TIME: 1 - 5 PM (Pacific Time) LOCATION: Bellevue Public Library, 1111 110th Avenue NE, Bellevue, Meeting Room 4 Agenda "Our agenda is a widely-held secret." As usual, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited. The meeting typically is followed by dinner at a nearby restaurant. PRESENTATIONS Robert Leen -- Defense Counsel for James Dalton Bell Mr. Leen served as the court-appointed defense attorney in the recent federal trial of Jim Bell, who was charged in the most recent case with harassment of federal agents. Jim was a former subscriber and occasional contributor to the main cypherpunks list and was somewhat known in libertarian circles in southern Washington State. It's well known that the way that the federal courts are set up is biased toward prosecutors, but Robert Leen faced considerably higher barriers than normal in his defense of Jim Bell. This case gave a glimpse of what happens when cypherpunk philosophies come in contact with government, and has several enlightening lessons in prosecutorial tactics. Robert Leen will discuss the case in general and then will address specific questions from the audience. DIRECTIONS The Bellevue Library is immediately north of downtown Bellevue. Take the "8th St N" exit from 405 and head toward downtown. Turn right at 110th Ave. After approximately 3 blocks, look for the Bellevue Public Library on the left. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Jul 10 16:02:31 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:02:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Crypto hardware (fwd) Message-ID: Please reply to Mr. Crispin. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:28:08 -0700 From: Kent Crispin To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Crypto hardware A couple of years ago at the RSA conference one of the vendors was exhibiting a tamperproof that would keep a secret key and perform encryptions/signatures using the key. Since the key never left the box, in theory security reduced to physical security around the box. The intended use of the box was as a master for a CA. I thought the vendor was GTE, but I didn't find anything definitive on their site. Does this description trigger any recollection? Are there similar devices on the market from other sources? -- Kent Crispin "Be good, and you will be kent at songbird.com lonesome." -- Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 10 18:08:00 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:08:00 -0700 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peter Trei wrote: > Expatriate US citizens have to pay > income tax on foreign earned income > to the US...If you don't pay up, > they might not be able to extradite > you if you're now a foreigner, but > they'll go after your assets in the > US, or arrest you if you set foot > on US soil. > > (13 years as an expatriate leads to > some specialized knowledge :-) Maybe, but you got part of that wrong. (a) For expatiate US persons, the first $78,000 (or there about; they keep upping the amount) of income is exempt. (b) If you file, but do not pay, they can grab US assets, but they cannot extradite you nor arrest you if you come back, because no crime has been committed. Failure to file is a crime; failure to pay is a civil matter. S a n d y From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 10 15:22:12 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <0ead56316de7ccd5606b03d376f0f6be@freemail.cotse.com> somebody behind a remailer wrote: >And IMHO the best way to achieve anonymity in meatspace? A great place to >start would be by not deliberately engaging in "possibly illegal operations >on the street in an environment full of police". You're doomed before you >ever get started. But I could be wrong. Don't say I didn't tell you so. > Bitch, you really are a pig, aren't you? Oh, don't protest, don't >be an activist, that's much too dangerous, you don't stand a chance >they'll get you, blah, blah, blah. Just a little Tokyo Rose for the >cyberage. Nonsense, that's not what I said at all. I raised some serious issues--and all ad-hominem attacks aside, here are a few more for anyone who feels up for it: Can you see a fundamental difference between activism/protest/resistance that makes a difference and "illegal operations on the street in an environment full of police"? What's the point of putting yourself into a situation where you have no chance of accomplishing anything besides getting arrested(or killed)and making some sort of symbolic statement--that doesn't fundamentally affect a single soul beyond whoever gets their property damaged? Why does pointing out the myriad ways it's possible for unarmed people to get swatted like flies by provoking people with superior gear and training automatically mean one in any way identifies with the swatters? Do you really think being an idealist should preclude you from reasoning like a realist? Who's more likely to make a difference at the WTO: a) someone outside, throwing golf balls at the building b) someone inside, presenting compelling arguments to the assembly and individual delegates Can't you think of a better way to use your skills and talents than "fucking shit up" and getting arrested? Can't you even think of a better way to get across your message? I can, lots of people here can. But then, it could just be you're trying to troll me from behing that anonymous remailer of yours. agent provocateur (azhang provocater): "an agent employed to induce or incite a suspected person or group to commit an incriminating act." If you're not one, it's better than even money that you didn't know that the idea of the agent provocateur was invented by Czarist Russia over 100 years ago to stir the Serbs in the Balkans to a rebellion against the Turks, which Russia could use as a pretext to declare war. But its use was most prominent in combating the Socialists during the Russian Revolution of 1905. The Czars targeted young students for the operation of the "agents provocateurs" because students were deemed more impressionable and emotional. At one point 20 percent of all young Russian students were reported to be paid undercover agents who were to organize anti-government demonstrations and then lead the demonstrators straight into the fire of the Czarist police. Think about it. Given that, if you can't even keep a cool head posting to a message board, then you really ARE doomed. ~Faustine. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 10 18:33:52 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:33:52 -0700 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> References: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: At 7:59 PM -0400 7/10/01, Adam Back wrote: >I was thinking online obscurity (nyms, pseudonymous web pages etc) coupled >with a low tax jurisdiction like Anguilla wouldn't be one interesting >combination. > >But there are plenty of disadvantages too -- limited amenities - shops, >computer parts, the advantages being within reasonable travelling distance >of a large western city affords. The inconvenience and cost of travelling >from a remote locale such as Anguilla if you do much international >travelling to visit family, friends, conferences etc. > >Apparently there are some tax advantages to residing in some Swiss cantons. > >But as Tim says there aren't really any jurisdictions which offer >significant advantages in physical and financial privacy over general >western jurisdictions. I wasn't singling out Anguilla, just noting it is hardly a libertarian paradise. Having spent a week in Nassau in 1980, that's a close as I want to come to moving to the Bahamas or places like that. (The sandy beaches were O.K., but not significantly better than here in Carmel--though the water's warm enough to snorkel and scuba dive in. But the crimes by blacks against whites were horrific: living in a walled compound on Paradise Island or on one of the outlying islands was the only hope a white man had.) The "nym" approach to online obscurity is hardly sufficient, Adam. After all, I don't want to face hanging for having a firearm. Or 5 years in the local jail for having a copy of "Penthouse." Or deportation for offending the Seven Families. These little Carribean potentates are far, far, far worse than what we face in the U.S. But enough about Anguilla, Nevis, St. Barts, all of the other little rocks on the Caribbean. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com Tue Jul 10 15:35:23 2001 From: YourMembership2 at AEOpublishing.com ('Your Membership' Editor) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange Message-ID: <20010710223523.31449260EC@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #427 (July 10, 2001) Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________
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Do you a burning question about promoting your website, html design,
or anything that is hindering your online success? Submit your questions
to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
Are you net savvy? Have you learned from your own trials and errors
and are willing to share your experience? Look over the questions each
day, and if you have an answer or can provide help, post your answer to
MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Be sure to include your signature file so
you get credit (and exposure to your site).
 

QUESTIONS:

From: webmaster  - webmaster at rajasthanhandicrafts.com
Subject: How to find free targeted audience?

I have this website which was launched about a year ago. This
website features handcrafted products from the wonderful land
of Rajasthan and the range and quality of products are not only
unique but also very attractive.
 
The problem is that I have been submitting to search engines and
FFA, and I average about 15 to 20 hits per day, but this is not
translating into business. What I need is targeted email addresses
of the wholesalers, importers and those who are interested in such
products.
 
Further since I am based in India where remittance of US Dollars
are restricted and controlled, it becomes very difficult to rent or
buy targeted email lists or directories of relevant importers.I have
great faith in the products we carry and am sure that proper
exposure to the right audience will result in huge sales and
business, but this problem has tied me down. Even though I
am marketing incredible products, but in absence of right targeting,
it is little use.
 
Can you suggest how to go about it?
 
Looking forward to your positive reply. Thanks!
 
Jay Joshi
webmaster at rajasthanhandicrafts.com
 
 

ANSWERS:

From: Adam Jones  - im.living.in.the at usa.net
Subject:  Error messages can happen for lots of reasons

>From: NancyNastynan at aol.com
>Subject: Error messages - what can I do?  (Issue #424)
>
--> I keep getting an error 403 & 404 on internet explorer,
and I can't get in my hotmail account, and it says
that on napster to. Can someone help me? <--

Error messages can happen for lots of reasons, including
that you may be connecting too slowly to the web server
you are trying to reach. Or, the problem could be with your
computer hardware limitations or the version of explorer
you are using.

You would also need to mention if the problem just
started, if you've made any changes to your settings, or
if this is an ongoing problem.  Give some more details and
I might be able to be more specific.

Adam Jones
im.living.in.the at usa.net

______________________________________________________
 

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SITE REVIEWED

Comments on Site #127: http://www.allbizservices.com/win
Patty Baldwin
patty at allbizservices.com
~~~~

This is a very simple but effective site. Patty is selling her
sales copy services, and I think she does an excellent job
outlining her points, giving benefits, reasons, things to
look for, etc.

The only thing I'd suggest is the 'All Biz Services' at the top
could be made into a more memorable logo or graphic,
and I would have liked to see a photo of her.
~~~~

Straightforward site. You can't get more focused than this.
~~~~

I found the sales copy on this website very compelling, and
came away with the idea Patty knows what she's talking about.
But, she mentions asking for samples, and I think it would
have been appropriate to see samples (besides this page) of
her previous work.

Links are limited, and I felt led through the site up until the end.
At the end though, the highlighted email address took me to
another website instead of opening my email, I had forgotten
the description for the newsletter so still wasn't sure I wanted
to sign up, and almost missed the order information since I
had to read through to the end before I would think about
ordering.
~~~~

Nice site. Had all the right stuff - good sales copy that spoke
to me personally, complete contact information with an
explanation for using a PO box, no distracting graphics or
links. I would definitely consider using allbizservices in the
future.
______________________________________________________
moderator: Amy Mossel  Moderator
posting:   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
______________________________________________________

Send posts and questions (or your answers) to:
   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
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Copyright 2001 AEOpublishing

----- End of Your Membership Exchange ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ This email has been sent to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net at your request, by Your Membership Newsletter Services. Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.rhcppp57&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15009 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 15:59:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:59:23 -0400 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <0ead56316de7ccd5606b03d376f0f6be@freemail.cotse.com>; from a3495@cotse.com on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:22:12PM -0400 References: <0ead56316de7ccd5606b03d376f0f6be@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <20010710185923.C21541@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:22:12PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > Who's more likely to make a difference at the WTO: a) someone outside, > throwing golf balls at the building b) someone inside, presenting > compelling arguments to the assembly and individual delegates Of those two choices, probably the former, actually. Delegates won't change their positions based on oratory. Nor, in the case of a U.S. delegate who might actually grok free trade, would we want him to. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 10 19:26:15 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:26:15 -0700 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <49529dca79da922bec85b9d67b770659@remailer.privacy.at> References: <49529dca79da922bec85b9d67b770659@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: At 2:37 AM +0200 7/11/01, Anonymous wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> I will say that there is no country out there that seems to be >> beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement, pace the points we discuss >> so often about drug warriors, freezing of accounts, extradition, >> etc. Even Yugoslavia has just bowed to U.S. financing pressures >> (sending Milosevic to the Hague for a show trial). > >The cost is higher, though, especially the cost of figuring out what >you are doing. You are mostly out from under the footprint. For >example, it's much more difficult for the Feds to illegally tap your >phone in, say, Russia. Also, it will be harder for them to do their >thing without tipping you off. This begs the question: _which_ "Feds"? While it may be harder for America's Feds to tap phones in Russia (but don't count on this being true for long), the successors to the KGB and GRU are very active. Russia even has draconian laws against crypto use which America was unable to pass. In any case, it's absurd to think one would move to Russia to escape the problems of the U.S. > >The Feds have to use a certain amount of discretion when operating in >other countries. When Ames was meeting his Russian handlers in >Colombia, the FBI tried to catch him at it, but blew it because they >were there illegally and had to exercise caution. Ames and Hanssen were textbook cases in "old school" thinking. They literally used the old kind of dead drops: messages left in Coke cans left at the base of oak trees in parks, chalk marks on mailboxes. Jeesh. >While it's too bad that there isn't a single Libertarian government >out there, other countries may still have uses. Two risky investments >is a better deal than one big investment with the same risk. Whatever. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Jul 10 17:57:23 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:57:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <786004566dbbe298739141e9039944ef@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >Ghandi. Womens Sufferage (US). Jim Crow Laws (US). Vietnam. Civil Rights > >in the 60's. > >The point being, there are plenty of historical precidence where this sort > >of behaviour has led directly to the change desired by the protestors > >against a much better armed and entrenched foe. > > It depends on which sort of behavior you mean--none of these causes > believed in violence at all! Um, you should review the 60's groups like the SDS and such. And while Ghandi certainly didn't believe in violence the same can't be said for the rest of the Indian freedom movement (not all hailed to Ghandi). As to women sufferage, you need to do some more research there as well, not all women are pascifist. they burned more than bra's... You paint with too broad a brush (typical of the indoctrinating education of the day - going all the way back to when I was a kid in the 60's). > Back in the day, anarchists used to assasinate people. Every ilk assassinates every other ilk if given the oportunity and the personality. > What came of it? The Indians are a free country. You and blacks can vote. The reality is, your example of the 'troops in the street willing to gun 'em down' (a paraphrase) is apt. The only thing stopping them is knowing that the majority of people don't believe it. They still believe in the 'kindly policeman who's there to help you' of their youth. Want to see the other side? Kent State. > The Sacco and Vanzetti case. Here's an > uncomforably familiar bit on that--just fill in new details and it's as > contemporary as ever: One case does not a generalization make. > Ouch. There's a real lesson there! Yeah, you need to study history more. > Besides, I think a lot of the success of the symbolic protests you > mentioned were actually a logical result of what was going on behind the > scenes No shit? That is true of everything!!!! You're trying to sit on the fence and at the same time stand on both sides. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Jul 10 17:58:53 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:58:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Adam Back wrote: > I was thinking online obscurity (nyms, pseudonymous web pages etc) coupled > with a low tax jurisdiction like Anguilla wouldn't be one interesting > combination. > > But there are plenty of disadvantages too -- limited amenities - shops, > computer parts, the advantages being within reasonable travelling distance > of a large western city affords. The inconvenience and cost of travelling > from a remote locale such as Anguilla if you do much international > travelling to visit family, friends, conferences etc. > > Apparently there are some tax advantages to residing in some Swiss cantons. > > But as Tim says there aren't really any jurisdictions which offer > significant advantages in physical and financial privacy over general > western jurisdictions. I've thought this one out as well. Seems to me the only answer is to keep moving, don't settle in any one country (or store your possessions in any one jurisdiction) for a lengthy stay. A couple of years max. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Ludwig Wittgenstein The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Jul 10 16:59:23 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:59:23 -0400 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: ; from Tim May on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:01:45AM -0700 References: <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> I was thinking online obscurity (nyms, pseudonymous web pages etc) coupled with a low tax jurisdiction like Anguilla wouldn't be one interesting combination. But there are plenty of disadvantages too -- limited amenities - shops, computer parts, the advantages being within reasonable travelling distance of a large western city affords. The inconvenience and cost of travelling from a remote locale such as Anguilla if you do much international travelling to visit family, friends, conferences etc. Apparently there are some tax advantages to residing in some Swiss cantons. But as Tim says there aren't really any jurisdictions which offer significant advantages in physical and financial privacy over general western jurisdictions. Adam From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 10 17:01:27 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <786004566dbbe298739141e9039944ef@freemail.cotse.com> Jim wrote: >Ghandi. Womens Sufferage (US). Jim Crow Laws (US). Vietnam. Civil Rights >in the 60's. >The point being, there are plenty of historical precidence where this sort >of behaviour has led directly to the change desired by the protestors >against a much better armed and entrenched foe. It depends on which sort of behavior you mean--none of these causes believed in violence at all! Back in the day, anarchists used to assasinate people. What came of it? The Sacco and Vanzetti case. Here's an uncomforably familiar bit on that--just fill in new details and it's as contemporary as ever: "The arrest of Sacco and Vanzetti coincided with the period of the most intense political repression in American history, the "Red Scare" 1919-20. The police trap they had fallen into had been set for a comrade of theirs, suspected primarily because he was a foreign-born radical. While neither Sacco nor Vanzetti had any previous criminal record, they were long recognized by the authorities and their communities as anarchist militants who had been extensively involved in labor strikes, political agitation, and antiwar propaganda and who had had several serious confrontations with the law. They were also known to be dedicated supporters of Luigi Galleani's Italian-language journal Cronaca Sovversiva, the most influential anarchist journal in America, feared by the authorities for its militancy and its acceptance of revolutionary violence... During this period the government's acts of repression, often illegal, were met in turn by the anarchists' attempts to incite social revolution, and at times by retaliatory violence; the authorities and Cronaca were pitted against each other in a bitter social struggle just short of open warfare. A former editor of Cronaca was strongly suspected of having blown himself up during an attentat on Attorney General Palmer's home in Washington, D.C. on June 2, 1919, an act that led Congress to vote funds for anti-radical investigations and launch the career of J. Edgar Hoover as the director of the General Intelligence Division in the Department of Justice. The Sacco- Vanzetti case would become one of his first major responsibilities. In 1920, as the Italian anarchist movement was trying to regroup, Andrea Salsedo, a comrade of Sacco and Vanzetti, was detained and, while in custody of the Department of Justice, hurled to his death. On the night of their arrest, authorities found in Sacco's pocket a draft of a handbill for an anarchist meeting that featured Vanzetti as the main speaker. In this treacherous atmosphere, when initial questioning by the police focused on their radical activities and not on the specifics of the Braintree crime, the two men lied in response. These falsehoods created a "consciousness of guilt" in the minds of the authorities, but the implications of that phrase soon became a central issue in the Sacco-Vanzetti case: Did the lies of the two men signify criminal involvement in the Braintree murder and robbery, as the authorities claimed, or did they signify an understandable attempt to conceal their radicalism and protect their friends during a time of national hysteria concerning foreign-born radicals, as their supporters were to claim?" Ouch. There's a real lesson there! Besides, I think a lot of the success of the symbolic protests you mentioned were actually a logical result of what was going on behind the scenes--sure, they protests functioned as a PR-strategic push, but without very intelligent and dedicated people interfacing with the power structure, nothing ever would have happened at all. You remember the people who conceptualized, organized and signed the treaty, not the ones who threw the bombs. Elizabeth Cady Stanton didn't *need* the Pankhursts, if you get my drift. >Highly heirarchial defence mechanisms, such as you tout as invincible, >work just fine when faced with that sort of competition. When faced with a >more distributed and idealistic confrontation they eventualy fail. Maybe, but keep in mind asymmetry and idealism don't always go together. Also, define "idealistic". For instance, Mao appealed to the idealism of his followers, but his tactics were as hardcore as they come. And what happens when a repressive state starts to adopt asymmetric strategies to overcome asymmetric threats? That's the way it's moving, slowly but surely... >The question is not one of tactics, but of spirits. Hm. I still think you need both. >Sun-Tzu should be added to your summer reading list. Yep, it's certainly worth another look. Meanwhile here's a relevant quote of his I do remember: "The worst policy is to attack cities. Attack cities only when there is no alternative." So there you have it... ;) ~Faustine. From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 10 20:50:46 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >Seems to me the only answer is to keep moving, don't settle in any one >country (or store your possessions in any one jurisdiction) for a lengthy >stay. A couple of years max. Um, no. A couple of years would have been fine a decade ago, but these days if you piss off The People Who Must Not Be Pissed Off, extradition - from anywhere you'd remotely want to be - happens really fast. And getting faster, at least until the US sets off a backlash of sentiment among its current supporters. I guess it depends on what you're up to. If you really want to avoid attracting their attention -- then you're not posting to this list ever again and you're *definitely* not doing anything like Phil Zimmerman and several others we could name did. In short, you abandon cypherpunk ideas to all outward appearances and do not contribute anything to the freedom of our descendants. You just sit there like a nice little shitbag and quiver when they tell you to quiver, and they'll leave you alone. For now. At least until they run out of people who make them more nervous. On the other If you *do* attract their attention, then international travel will make them even more nervous about you -- and we all know (from Bell's case) what happens when Those Who Must Not Be Pissed Off get nervous about a particular person. A Kangaroo trial and a long sentence, natch. Same as anywhere else in the world. I think maybe the most effective path is a middle path; do things that help the situation of everybody, publish good subversive software if your talents run that way, and you'll definitely attract their attention. But as far as you can avoid it, never *frighten* them.... I guarantee that if Phil Zimmerman had had an impressive collection of guns or a stockpile of chemical reagents in his posession when he released PGP, he would be rotting in jail today and the rest of us wouldn't have PGP, nor its lineal descendants. Basically, you're allowed to piss them off a little, and they still need some kind of excuse to arrest you. But once you've pissed them off, any excuse will do, even (as Bell's case teaches us) the legal exercise of a constitutionally protected right. I think a lot of international travel would be more likely to give them the excuse they need to arrest you, if they were looking for one, than it would do to keep them off your back. And when you go travelling internationally, the opportunities for setups of various types multiply exponentially. What if somebody blackbags your luggage and a pound of dope shows up in turkish customs? Now add in a hefty bribe to the judge in the case and your innocent ass can be sitting in jail in Turkey for decades at no PR cost to the USA. Bear "I used to feel like a flea on the back of a dinosaur -- But lately, I've felt that that may have been a misassessment. Maybe I'm more like a small, yapping poodle on the back of a dinosaur...." -- Philip Zimmerman (paraphrased no doubt by my faulty memory) From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:21:25 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:21:25 -0700 Subject: Satellite taxes In-Reply-To: <3B4B4E39.389D2B3B@lsil.com> References: <3B4B4E39.389D2B3B@lsil.com> Message-ID: >Um, wouldn't a natural way to assess property taxes be to first decide >in which jurisdiction the property rests? For instance project the One of the points that L.A. County is using to assess these taxes is that it is property that owned by a (to them) local corporation that *isn't* in a taxable jurisdiction. Not that I think this is anything but a stupid idea. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:31:04 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:31:04 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <0ead56316de7ccd5606b03d376f0f6be@freemail.cotse.com> References: <0ead56316de7ccd5606b03d376f0f6be@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: >Nonsense, that's not what I said at all. I raised some serious issues--and >all ad-hominem attacks aside, here are a few more for anyone who feels up >for it: > >Can you see a fundamental difference between activism/protest/resistance >that makes a difference and "illegal operations on the street in an >environment full of police"? I can, that's why I don't do that stuff any more. (Not that I ever did it much). >What's the point of putting yourself into a situation where you have no >chance of accomplishing anything besides getting arrested(or killed)and >making some sort of symbolic statement--that doesn't fundamentally affect a >single soul beyond whoever gets their property damaged? We live in the Post Modern world where making a symbolic statement is equivalent to actually doing something about the problem. >Do you really think being an idealist should preclude you from reasoning >like a realist? By definition. >Who's more likely to make a difference at the WTO: a) someone outside, >throwing golf balls at the building b) someone inside, presenting >compelling arguments to the assembly and individual delegates (a). Because by the time the delegates meet, it's too late. >Can't you think of a better way to use your skills and talents >than "fucking shit up" and getting arrested? Can't you even think of a >better way to get across your message? I can, lots of people here can. I can think of a better way of using my talents, but then that's why I don't do that shit (Well, that and the fact that while I disagree with what the WTO is doing, I disagree for completely different and incompatible reasons than the "blank bloc"). >If you're not one, it's better than even money that you didn't know that >the idea of the agent provocateur was invented by Czarist Russia over 100 >years ago to stir the Serbs in the Balkans to a rebellion against the I doubt it was invented that recently. >Think about it. Given that, if you can't even keep a cool head posting to a >message board, then you really ARE doomed. Nonsense. There is virtually no risk (especially to someone behind a nym) in reacting hotheadedly on a mailing list (THIS IS NOT A MESSAGE BOARD). There are significant risks in doing it in real life. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:40:15 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:40:15 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <786004566dbbe298739141e9039944ef@freemail.cotse.com> References: <786004566dbbe298739141e9039944ef@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: >Jim wrote: > >>Ghandi. Womens Sufferage (US). Jim Crow Laws (US). Vietnam. Civil Rights >>in the 60's. >>The point being, there are plenty of historical precidence where this sort >>of behaviour has led directly to the change desired by the protestors >>against a much better armed and entrenched foe. > >It depends on which sort of behavior you mean--none of these causes >believed in violence at all! Back in the day, anarchists used to assasinate Oh, yes they did, they just didn't act violently. Ghandi used violence--the violence of the British Empire to call attention to his cause. Vietnam didn't end because a bunch of spoiled college kids were pouting in the streets, it ended because their *parents*, and those coming back from Vietnam wanted it to end, plus it was getting real expensive. As far as the Civil Rights movement in the 60's, ever notice how suddenly MLK jr. and friends got a *lot* more attention and action once the Black Panthers and associates started making threats? As well, while MLK jr. might have preached non-violence, there were plenty of armed individuals in that movement who weren't going to tolerate violence against them. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:42:05 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:42:05 -0700 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: <49529dca79da922bec85b9d67b770659@remailer.privacy.at> References: <49529dca79da922bec85b9d67b770659@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: >Tim May wrote: >> I will say that there is no country out there that seems to be >> beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement, pace the points we discuss >> so often about drug warriors, freezing of accounts, extradition, >> etc. Even Yugoslavia has just bowed to U.S. financing pressures >> (sending Milosevic to the Hague for a show trial). > >The cost is higher, though, especially the cost of figuring out what >you are doing. You are mostly out from under the footprint. For >example, it's much more difficult for the Feds to illegally tap your >phone in, say, Russia. Also, it will be harder for them to do their >thing without tipping you off. Um. What about the Russians tapping your phone? Once outside the borders of the US, your jurisdictional problems multiply, not only do you have to worry (at least a little bit) about the USG, you have to worry about the G of your host country. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:52:07 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:52:07 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, petro wrote: > >>>The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad >>>anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control >>>forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the >>>protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless >> >>Maybe in Finland, but here in the US, the government official that gave >>the orders to shoot a crowd of protestors would *not* be working much >>longer. > >(Actually the police here have far more stringent requirements for even >drawing a gun than they do over there in the States. But that's not really >the issue.) But is there as much scrutiny and backlash when they do? Here in the US, it is getting to the point where cops in larger cities won't even bother to deal with certain crimes in certain neighborhoods, as they are afraid that even if they do everything by the book, they will get fucked. From http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy/dunphy.shtml "One officer, 17-year veteran Eric Michl, put it this way: "Parking under a shady tree to work on a crossword puzzle is a great alternative to being labeled a racist and being dragged through an inquest, a review board, an FBI and U.S. Attorney's investigation and a lawsuit." And it is certainly the case that any one who gives the orders to fire into a crowd will face some sort of civil suit (whether right or wrong, when there is big bucks at stake, the suit will be brought). >The police are already given broad discretion in their use of force. (For >instance, to stop a fleeing suspect.) I fear that the mechanisms which >brought us dedicated riot control forces could very well grant the police a >catch-all licence to kill when "threatened" by a group of protestors. The >Bloc attire and their interest in direct action constitute a highly >plausible threat. So could any larger crowd of angry people who refuse to >disband, if people ever start to think of protestors merely as "anarchists" >or "hooligans". In this country, that discretion is being severely narrowed. There is a case in Seattle (IIRC) where a black man was (allegedly) *DRAGGING A COP WITH HIS CAR* and was shot dead. People got upset at the police for this. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:53:50 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:53:50 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> > After all, given the state of the American Press, this would >> >be P.R. Suicide for the Police. >> >> >> It would, unless enough fear of these people can be spread among the >> general population. If you can make the people scared enough of > > >Naw, it still wouldn't matter. > >Who lost their job over the Waco massacre? >Who was even repremanded? The biggest difference is that the WTO protesters are protesting a great evil, while the people at Waco *were* the great evil. (no, I don't believe that, but if you've got half a brain, you'll see my point). -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 10 21:58:16 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:58:16 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, petro wrote: > >>>On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: >>> >> >> After all, given the state of the American Press, this would >>be P.R. Suicide for the Police. > > >It would, unless enough fear of these people can be spread among the >general population. If you can make the people scared enough of >X (whether X is anarchists or anybody else), the people won't protest >when you start killing X. The US government, and various police >forces, have used this principle extensively in the last decade or >so; whenever they want license to kill X, they first demonize X in >the press hoping to get lots of people scared of X. The thing is, with the WTO protests, there isn't one X to demonize, and with anything from rifle-rounds to water cannons it isn't only the black bloc that's going to be hit. It's going to be the Pretty Little Hippy Chick who was Just Protesting Indonesian Sweat Shops. It's going to be the 40 something truck driver who was protesting the unsafe Mexican Trucks on the US highways. Sure, they'll get some of the Black Blockheads, but large crowds are chaos, and as soon as the shooting starts, things are going to get massively stochastic. -- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 10 22:00:27 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:00:27 -0700 Subject: Acts of God and Controlled De-Orbitings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200107110500.f6B50Gr23671@slack.lne.com> On Tuesday, July 10, 2001, at 09:44 PM, Jim Windle wrote: > There is lots of junk up there. Schemes to de-orbit satellites at the > end of their useful life have been put forward but they always fail on > the liability issue. Apparently if a satellite falls out of orbit it > is an "act of god" and the owner/insurer is not responsible for > damages, but if the satellite is deliberately de-orbitted the > owner/insurer is on the hook. No one, partiucularly the insurance > companies wants to try it. Five dozen Iridium satellites were on the verge of being de-orbited when a buyer could not be found. (Was this just jive? Possibly, but plans were underway and retro-rocket firing sequences were ready to go. Had the U.S.G. not arranged a deal to keep the system in operation for military/embassy/spook purposes, I expect the de-orbiting would have happened.) The "act of God" argument is a weak one, anyway. Had Motorola and the other Iridium partners simply said "We'll trust in God and just let them fall where they may," I expect they would have been hit with lawsuits as bits of wreckage made it to the ground. A controlled de-orbiting over the Pacific was seen by them as the wiser choice. --TIm May From honig at sprynet.com Tue Jul 10 22:22:57 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:22:57 -0700 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010710222257.0096a460@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:44 AM 7/11/01 -0400, Jim Windle wrote: >There is lots of junk up there. Schemes to de-orbit satellites at the end of their useful life have been put forward but they always fail on the liability issue. Apparently if a satellite falls out of orbit it is an "act of god" and the owner/insurer is not responsible for damages, but if the satellite is deliberately de-orbitted the owner/insurer is on the hook. No one, More importantly: you can't get sued if your space debris trashes someone else's mission. So why bother? From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 10 22:32:47 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:32:47 -0700 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) References: <3B4B414A.72B2E86C@semtex.com> Message-ID: <000a01c109ca$eb344680$d4972040@zug> The killer is that he's exactly right with respect to black letter law. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dynamite Bob" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:54 AM Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) > Get a load of this lawyer's physics: > > "The property in question here is geostationary," > said Larry Hoenig, a San Francisco attorney > representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary > satellites sit above the equator in a fixed > position; they do not rotate around the Earth. So > the satellites we're talking about here are not > movable property." > > http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-000056553jul10.story?coll=la%2Dne ws%2Dstate > From holim77 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 06:34:57 2001 From: holim77 at yahoo.com (Edward) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:34:57 +0900 Subject: ⅩⅩⅩNO CHAIN CYCLE 202ⅩⅩⅩ Message-ID: <355320017210133457690@yahoo.com> NO CHAIN CYCLE 202 http://www.geocities.com/cycle202/ Safety ! Speedly ! Convenient ! Lightly ! 1.PERFECT FREEDOM DANGER Preventing the injuries by the chain when bikes fall down (Especially,in the case of children`s we expect to be reduced 80 up to 90 percent of the dangers of injuries by the chain) 2.EASY HANDLING The handling is easy with the function of chainless three gears, and the reduction of mechanical troubles of the gearbox is remarkable compared with the bikes attached multi-gears on the ordinary chains. 3.DIRTY FREE. It`s the solution to the problem oof smeared over clothes going on a bicycle for leisure and salaried employee. 4.AFFINITY FOR ENVIRONMENT The ordinary chain bikes have to put frequently lubrication oil on the chain to prevent corrosion and abrasion.But,in the case of the cainless bikes,it is affinity for environment the reason why the mechanical parts built in the covered steel cap that the lubrication oil does not make environmental pollution. 5.EASY AND CONVENIENCE FOR CUSTODY AND MAINTENANCE It does not require troublesome handworks during custody,and worries about corrosion in a long term custody are reduced remarkably compared with the ordinary chain bikes. Otherwise,the chainless bike is convenience without missing chain from track. 6.MULTI-FUCNTION The chainless bike(Steals) 1)the function of 3th step of three gears emphasized on weight training. 2)the function of 2nd step of three gears for transportation of everyday life. 3)the fuction of 1st step of three gears for easy climbing acclivity. The mondems should spend money buying sporting goods and invest time for their health management by the lack of exercise. The STEALS,chainless bike is aiming at the unification of the double burden money and time,and offer the solution into the everyday working as the answer of it. HOW TO USE NO CHAIN CYCLE 1.The Chainless Bike does not require troublesome handworks that is the charater. 2.The gearbox shall be cleaned 1~2 time in a couple year and then, put in a small quantity of gears. 3.When you want changing rears (speed) while running the bike,stop the pedal and turn smoothly the gearbox. SPECIFICATION OF NO CHAIN CYCLE 1.Specification of gearbox (changing gears) a.Hi-Speed 3th step : 1 vs 3.5 b.Medium-Speed 2nd step : 1 vs 2.4 c.Low-speed 1st step : 1 vs 1.8 2.Comparative Table Chain Bike Chainless Bike Transmission Chain Gerar Life Span Short Long Against Impact Weak Strong Obstacles Hindrance Without Hindrance (spring & ropes) We are looking for buyer or dealer C&I International. http://www.geocities.com/cycle202/ Johnny Kim www.ffanet.nethop.com www.ffanet.nethop.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Jul 10 21:55:01 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:55:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bull. But to specifics... On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > >Seems to me the only answer is to keep moving, don't settle in any one > >country (or store your possessions in any one jurisdiction) for a lengthy > >stay. A couple of years max. > > Um, no. A couple of years would have been fine a decade ago, but > these days if you piss off The People Who Must Not Be Pissed Off, > extradition - from anywhere you'd remotely want to be - happens > really fast. Is the point to live your life or piss people off with impunity? If it's the latter then there is no hope for you because wherever you go you're going to piss the 'man' off. Trying to cover this up (a social pathology) with some lame ass excuse that you're just trying to get by won't cut the mustard. That's not indivuality, nor is it social responsibility. It's just plain mean and self-absorbed. However, if you're goal is to do what you want to do and not piss people off then moving around every couple of years is a viable strategy. By the time anyone figures out what it is you're doing, and get's pissed off you're already gone. In addition, if you're smart anonymity will prevent any 1-1 association (rather cypherpunkish) simply because you won't go around bragging about what a bad ass you are. Somehow I don't think 'cypherpunk' equals 'egotist' or 'rampant self promotion'. > And getting faster, at least until the US sets off > a backlash of sentiment among its current supporters. > > I guess it depends on what you're up to. If you really want to > avoid attracting their attention -- then you're not posting to this > list ever again and you're *definitely* not doing anything like > Phil Zimmerman and several others we could name did. Maybe, but then again we'll never know since Phil did it in the US and chose to live here. What happened to him actually is a good example of how not to do something like that. He'd been better served writing the software here but releasing it anonymously over-seas. He made a tactical error in that he not only wanted to help people but wanted credit for it also. Greed will get you killed. > In short, you abandon cypherpunk ideas to all outward appearances and do > not contribute anything to the freedom of our descendants. You > just sit there like a nice little shitbag and quiver when they > tell you to quiver, and they'll leave you alone. For now. At > least until they run out of people who make them more nervous. You're lack of imagination is in no way a boundary condition on mine. This omnipotent and omnipresent 'they' you speak of simply doesn't exist in the context you claim. If I were to live in England for a couple of years writing some nifty anonymity code, or perhaps in some less 'legaly diligant' clime for some more 'invasive' goal then it would only make sense to execute in a different place. Anonymity is likely to be much easier to manage in such an environment as well. > On the other If you *do* attract their attention, then international > travel will make them even more nervous about you -- and we all know > (from Bell's case) what happens when Those Who Must Not Be Pissed > Off get nervous about a particular person. A Kangaroo trial and > a long sentence, natch. Same as anywhere else in the world. If you do attract their attention you've already failed. Bell's case is not an acceptable example for a variety of reasons. > attract their attention. But as far as you can avoid it, never > *frighten* them.... They're inherently frightened, it's only a question of what now... > I guarantee that if Phil Zimmerman had had an impressive > collection of guns or a stockpile of chemical reagents in his > posession when he released PGP, he would be rotting in jail > today and the rest of us wouldn't have PGP, nor its lineal > descendants. He should have released PGP anonymously. It would not have been a difficult proposition. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 21:04:28 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:04:28 -0400 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: References: <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010711000044.02105400@mail.well.com> At 06:33 PM 7/10/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >These little Carribean potentates are far, far, far worse than what we >face in the U.S. The sad truth is that if you're a gun owner and like to have variety in what you collect, no "western democracy" is going to be a better fit than the U.S. Even some smaller countries that should know better (or not) are lining up behind the anti-gun nations, as we can see this week at the U.N. summit. >But enough about Anguilla, Nevis, St. Barts, all of the other little rocks >on the Caribbean. Some may be better than others. Bermuda (not truly in the Carribbean) is more British and less strained in terms of race relations. Aruba is also better than others. But even with the problems in modern America, we still have a stronger commitment to what remains of civil liberty. Which may not be saying much. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 21:12:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:12:26 -0400 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:50:46PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010711001225.A24563@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:50:46PM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > descendants. Basically, you're allowed to piss them off a > little, and they still need some kind of excuse to arrest > you. But once you've pissed them off, any excuse will do, > even (as Bell's case teaches us) the legal exercise of a > constitutionally protected right. At the risk of going against cypherpunkconvntionalwisdom, or what passes for it, I would be wary of using the Bell case as an example of a typical prosecution. First, Bell was so terribly unlikeable as a defendant that it's a wonder that he even got the jury to not convict on all counts. Second, he was loopy, whether for effect or for real, when accusing his attorney of making death threats against him and family. Third, he didn't just spew opinions on a mailing list -- he let all the Feds he could know that he was willing to devote his life to bringing them down. Fourth, there's the home addresses and "Say goodnight to Joshua" thang that put the jury over the edge. This is not to say that his prosecution was justified, that the law he was charged with violating is constitutional, that the Feds acted reasonably, or that his conviction is appropriate. But even among cypherpunks, Bell is an outlier. -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Jul 10 21:19:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:19:41 -0400 Subject: Condit cracks In-Reply-To: <20010708195818.A5318@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:58:18PM -0400 References: <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200107080732.DAA14133@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <20010708115339.C2140@cluebot.com> <200107081631.MAA04453@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <20010708140826.A1123@cluebot.com> <20010708195818.A5318@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010711001941.B24563@cluebot.com> More Condit! From this evening: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-23/gary-condit-chandra-levy-4.html http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-23/gary-condit-chandra-levy-5.html Hey, it's right around the corner. I can't resist. -Declan On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:58:18PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > The truck: > http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-23/gary-condit-chandra-levy-2.html > > The apartment and media stakeout: > http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/gary-condit-stakeout-july01.html > > The media stakeout is both pathetic and hysterical: Condit has not > been spotted within miles of his apartment in the last few weeks but > they're outside anyway. I chatted with a New York Post photog who was > philosophical when challenged by some passers-by -- he was getting > paid by the hour, he said, and didn't mind the wait. > > Other residents of the apartment building are starting to take > offense; around noon today one started screaming at and physically > threatened some of the reporters, who are now clustered in clumps for > safety. > > -Declan > > > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 02:08:26PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Okay, okay. I haven't been out yet today but will take my digital camera > > and see if I can photonab that blasted van. > > > > -Declan > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 12:30:37PM -0700, John Young wrote: > > > So, Declan, what's the latest Beltway buzz about Levy, as with > > > Lewinsky, working for Mossad, that is, FRU, to suck secrets from > > > Condit and Clinton, if not directly then by extortion when the photos > > > and recordings and confessions are bared to the stiffs. > > > > > > Get the license plate of that surveillance truck. Get the biometrics > > > of its operators. Or spot the ice cream van snarfing the mucker's > > > emissions. From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Jul 10 21:44:24 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:44:24 -0400 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:05:44 Phillip H. Zakas wrote: > > >you know one of the things i'd like to do is go into the waste removal >business in orbit. lots of junk up there...would like to launch a satellite >with a long finger attached to it and poke stuff out of orbit. the "nudge". >who'd pay? it would be quite an unfornate event if a satellite were >mistaken as a piece of debris...or if debris suddenly appeared in a launch >window ;) > >phillip > There is lots of junk up there. Schemes to de-orbit satellites at the end of their useful life have been put forward but they always fail on the liability issue. Apparently if a satellite falls out of orbit it is an "act of god" and the owner/insurer is not responsible for damages, but if the satellite is deliberately de-orbitted the owner/insurer is on the hook. No one, partiucularly the insurance companies wants to try it. This despite a high degree of confidence in being able to bring a satellite down in a hopefully empty patch of ocean. Insurance companies are very risk averse. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Jul 10 22:56:32 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:56:32 -0500 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Petro wrote: > Um. > > What about the Russians tapping your phone? > As an aside, headlines from Mexico have been interesting lately. *she fumbles around* Here's one. http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/world/docs/mexico08.htm (political wiretapping ring) ~Aimee From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Jul 10 22:52:36 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 01:52:36 -0400 Subject: Acts of God and Controlled De-Orbitings Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:00:27 Tim May wrote: > >Five dozen Iridium satellites were on the verge of being de-orbited when >a buyer could not be found. > Yes they were. I think Iridium is something of a special case. It was in bankruptcy and any damage claim would probably have been classified as a general unsecured claim and not likely to recover anything. The ability to go after Motorola is limited. Some of the subordinated debt still trades, in the low single digits last time I checked, on the theory they may get a recovery from Motorola in a lawsuit. Also to preserve the value of the estate, or in this case not to further increase expenses a judge could overrule an insurance company objection. I didn't follow the Iridium proceeding that closely so I don't remember the details. >(Was this just jive? Possibly, but plans were underway and retro-rocket >firing sequences were ready to go. Had the U.S.G. not arranged a deal to >keep the system in operation for military/embassy/spook purposes, I >expect the de-orbiting would have happened.) > >The "act of God" argument is a weak one, anyway. Had Motorola and the >other Iridium partners simply said "We'll trust in God and just let them >fall where they may," I expect they would have been hit with lawsuits as >bits of wreckage made it to the ground. > I recently read, and will look for the citiation, a proposal for an extendable tether which would be used to de-orbit satellites after their maneuvering fuel was used up. Apparently the insurance companies have shot it down for the "act of god" reason. The satellite operators could apparently use a controlled burn to bring it down with enough safety margin for some insurance companies to be comfortable but the fuel requirements are apparently substantial and appreciably shorten the satellite's life. Hence they choose to leave them up as junk rather than incur the costs necessary to bring them down in a fashion acceptable to the insurer who are on the hook if a controlled de-orbit hits something. Obviously in the case of Iridium the remaining life of the satellites was not a valuable asset until the buyer came forward. >A controlled de-orbiting over the Pacific was seen by them as the wiser >choice. > >--TIm May > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Tue Jul 10 17:37:01 2001 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:37:01 +0200 Subject: Dropping out of the USA Message-ID: <49529dca79da922bec85b9d67b770659@remailer.privacy.at> Tim May wrote: > I will say that there is no country out there that seems to be > beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement, pace the points we discuss > so often about drug warriors, freezing of accounts, extradition, > etc. Even Yugoslavia has just bowed to U.S. financing pressures > (sending Milosevic to the Hague for a show trial). The cost is higher, though, especially the cost of figuring out what you are doing. You are mostly out from under the footprint. For example, it's much more difficult for the Feds to illegally tap your phone in, say, Russia. Also, it will be harder for them to do their thing without tipping you off. The Feds have to use a certain amount of discretion when operating in other countries. When Ames was meeting his Russian handlers in Colombia, the FBI tried to catch him at it, but blew it because they were there illegally and had to exercise caution. Many countries are getting sensitive to violations of their sovereignty by the U.S., so there may be governments which would not cooperate readily, especially if they like your presence for, say, business reasons. Other countries may also not be locked into the same technophobic paranoid hysteria which seems to be gripping the folks in Washington these days. Somebody sending a lot of encrypted mail may seem pretty harmless in a more relaxed part of the world. While it's too bad that there isn't a single Libertarian government out there, other countries may still have uses. Two risky investments is a better deal than one big investment with the same risk. From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Jul 10 23:49:15 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:49:15 -0400 Subject: Acts of God and Controlled De-Orbitings Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 01:52:36 Jim Windle wrote: > >I recently read, and will look for the citiation, a proposal for an extendable tether which would be used to de-orbit satellites after their maneuvering fuel was used up. This is what I saw originally but a search turned it up and it does clarify the legal issue. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.01/mustread.html?pg=12 Jim Windle Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From 1support at microsoft.com Wed Jul 11 05:50:53 2001 From: 1support at microsoft.com (1support at microsoft.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:50:53 Subject: Information You Requested from Microsoft.com Message-ID: NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS E-MAIL. THIS E-MAIL IS NOT MONITORED. Welcome to Microsoft Online ID secure Internet environment! Below is your membership information. Please keep this confirmation mail as a record of your password. Consider this information confidential and treat accordingly. Your Microsoft Online ID Password is: cypherpunks A Microsoft Online ID provides access to various Microsoft secured programs. Please check the Frequently Asked Questions and/or Help page of the program you are accessing for questions. Sincerely, Microsoft Online ID Administrator From marketing at eyeclearing.com Wed Jul 11 06:15:48 2001 From: marketing at eyeclearing.com (marketing at eyeclearing.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eye stress ! or Stress eye ! Message-ID: <200107111315.GAA10277@sirius.infonex.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ppmsvcEN at microsoft.com Wed Jul 11 08:03:29 2001 From: ppmsvcEN at microsoft.com (Passport Member Services) Date: 11 Jul 2001 08:03:29 -0700 Subject: Welcome to Microsoft Passport--Making the Web Easier, Faster, and More Secure Message-ID: Hello cypherpunks at toad.com! Please do NOT reply to this message. To contact us, see the instructions below. You have received this message because this is the e-mail address you provided when you registered for a Microsoft簧 Passport at a site that participates in the Passport network. Your Passport is a single sign-in name, password, and wallet that you can use to sign in and make online purchases from a quickly growing number of Web sites. Check out the Passport Directory at http://www.passport.com/directory.asp to see where you can use your Passport. NOTE: The rest of this message contains important information about your Passport. You'll want to refer back to it periodically, so please save it or print it out. HOW TO USE YOUR NEW PASSPORT Your new Passport sign-in name is: cypherpunks at toad.com You'll need to provide your sign-in name and password whenever you sign in. (For your security, we won't remind you of your password here, but please make a mental note of it.) Passport is simple to use. To sign in, click the green Sign In link on any Passport site. Type your sign-in name and password. After you sign in to one participating site, you can sign in to any other participating site with just one click--without having to retype any information. To sign out of all sites you signed in to, click the purple Sign Out link on any of those sites. The wallet service is just as easy to use. You can store as many credit cards and shipping addresses in your wallet as you want, safely and securely. To make a purchase at a participating merchant, click a Passport wallet button or link, choose which credit card and shipping address you want to use, and your information is sent to the online merchant over a secure connection. You can create your wallet now at https://wallet.passport.com. IMPORTANT PASSPORT LINKS To learn about Passport, get assistance, and view or update your sign-in profile and wallet, visit Passport Member Services at http://www.passport.com/memberservices.asp. Finally, Microsoft is dedicated to protecting your privacy. We encourage you to review our Passport privacy policy at http://www.passport.com/privacypolicy.asp. Thank you for using your Passport! The Microsoft Passport Team For more information about Passport, see http://www.passport.com. From ppmsvcEN at microsoft.com Wed Jul 11 08:03:29 2001 From: ppmsvcEN at microsoft.com (Passport Member Services) Date: 11 Jul 2001 08:03:29 -0700 Subject: Please Verify Your Microsoft Passport E-mail Address Message-ID: Hello cypherpunks at toad.com, Please do NOT reply to this message. To contact us, see the instructions below. You have received this message because this is the e-mail address you provided as your preferred e-mail address for Microsoft簧 Passport. For your privacy and security, some participating Passport sites require you to verify that this is your e-mail address before allowing you to participate in certain activities at their sites. PLEASE VERIFY THAT THIS IS YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS by clicking this link: https://memberservices.passport.com/ppsecure/email.asp?nn=cypherpunks%40toad%2Ecom%40passport%2Ecom&dt=7%2F11%2F2001&ck=99b39c21c3879076bb53f87998ddae08 IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE IN ERROR, you can easily remove this e-mail address from our records by clicking this link: https://memberservices.passport.com/ppsecure/emailDelete.asp?fn=cypherpunks%40toad%2Ecom%40passport%2Ecom&ck=99b39c21c3879076bb53f87998ddae08 IF A LINK ABOVE DOES NOT WORK, use your mouse to select the entire link (starting with "https://" and going all the way to the end of the link), and then copy it (usually by clicking "Copy" in the "Edit" menu). Open your Internet browser, and click in the box where you usually see the Web page address. Paste the link (usually by clicking "Paste" in the "Edit" menu), and then press Enter or Return on your keyboard. TO CONTACT US, learn about Passport, get assistance, and view or update your sign-in profile and wallet, visit Passport Member Services at http://www.passport.com/memberservices.asp. Thank you for using your Passport! The Microsoft Passport Team For more information about Passport, see http://www.passport.com. From bear at sonic.net Wed Jul 11 08:03:48 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: >L.A. May Be Shot Down in Bid to Tax Satellites >By Dan Whitcomb >Auerbach insisted that he was not pushing for a tax on the satellites but >was simply doing his job and trying to determine whether they should be >taxed. > >``I'm neutral on the whole thing,'' he said. ``My job is to make sure all >property that's taxable gets assessed and I'm going to follow the law. If >the law says its not taxable it's not taxable. If it is taxable I will >assess it.'' Just imagine what things would be like if assessors were paid on commission. Tax Farming, anyone? Bear From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Jul 11 08:29:02 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:29:02 -0700 Subject: freq meter vs. spectrum analyzer for sweeping Message-ID: bob said: >You need a spectrum analyzer, which shows you signal strength vs. >frequency. > >And you need to worry about intermittent ('burst') bugs. > >And WTF is an 'infinity' transmitter? Umm, all the stuff being sold for counter surveillance are frequency counters of one sort or another. Infinity transmitter? I guess you don't know much about bugs if you don't know that -- try a web search on the term. From stephanie.key at etransmail2.com Wed Jul 11 08:38:48 2001 From: stephanie.key at etransmail2.com (Stephanie Key) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:38:48 -0700 Subject: Give Away - Take 5 ! 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Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Jul 11 08:58:28 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:58:28 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? Message-ID: <3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> > Auerbach insisted that he was not pushing for a tax on the satellites but > was simply doing his job and trying to determine whether they should be > taxed. > > ``I'm neutral on the whole thing,'' he said. ``My job is to make sure all > property that's taxable gets assessed and I'm going to follow the law. If > the law says its not taxable it's not taxable. If it is taxable I will > assess it.'' > I suppose, as with any racket, whoever has the ability to knock the satellites down or render them inoperable could levy a "tax" on them. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 06:28:21 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:28:21 -0400 Subject: Dropping out of the USA In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 11:55:01PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010711092821.B27983@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 11:55:01PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Bell's case is not an acceptable example for a variety of reasons. Wow. Jim Choate agrees with me, or I agree with him, or something like that. -Declan From T_Finney at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:52:31 2001 From: T_Finney at hotmail.com (T_Finney at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:52:31 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <200107111452.f6BEqUE29880@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 06:55:02 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:55:02 -0400 Subject: FC: House will vote on bill to regulate online campaign advertising Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45138,00.html Mulling Reins on Net Campaigns By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. July 11, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- The House of Representatives is scheduled to vote Thursday on a campaign finance bill that would, for the first time, regulate Internet advertisements and e-mails targeted at voters. The new rules aimed at online political activity are part of a Republican effort to overhaul U.S. election law that has received little scrutiny -- which, if enacted, would roil the fast-growing online campaign industry and impose obstacles on candidates' use of the Internet. Jonah Seiger, co-founder of Mindshare, a 16-person Internet consulting firm in Washington, said he understands why the legislation was written to cover "any communications" directed at voters, and not just traditional methods. "But I hope Congress would understand what they're doing," Seiger said. "The unintended consequences of sloppy legislation could make it more difficult to use the Internet and make it less effective as a political communications medium." On Thursday, the House will consider a campaign finance plan patterned after a bill backed by Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona) that the Senate has already approved. That proposal, H.R.2356, covers only political communications sent by broadcast, satellite, cable or the U.S. mail, and does not apply to the Internet. But the version that House Republicans will offer as an alternative is far broader in one important way: It regulates "any" paid communication -- including Internet communication -- that mentions a candidate for federal office. Anyone who makes such a communication, not just political parties or candidates, would be required to keep careful records and count online spending toward a $50,000 limit that would trigger a filing with the federal government. The bill's drafters say they intended to regulate the burgeoning world of Internet politics but predicted the legislation's impact would be limited. Roman Buhler, counsel to the House Administration Committee, said "when we thought about the Internet we doubted that the cost of Internet messages, such as bulk e-mails, would rise to that level.... It was our sense that bulk e-mails would not approach the $50,000 threshold." (The bill does count e-mail spending toward the $50,000 trigger point.) "A banner ad would be a form of mass communication, and they would have to disclose," Buhler said. Ken Nealy, a press secretary for bill sponsor Rep. Albert Wynn (D-Maryland), refused to speak on the record. When asked in person what effects the bill would have on the Internet, Nealy declared that the conversation was over and left the room. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From hseaver at ameritech.net Wed Jul 11 08:00:40 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:00:40 -0500 Subject: Dropping out of the USA References: <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> <53468f78f37d8008394b4902035e1087@melontraffickers.com> <3B46011D.B9F83211@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20010710195923.A6845@economists.cryptohill.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20010711000044.02105400@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3B4C6A15.E3670C34@ameritech.net> How about Costa Rica? I met some people from there who said the government there was very cool, no problems. OTOH, anyplace you go that you're a foreigner, you always stand out. But Costa Rica has always attracted me, both politically and geographically, because the upland weather is quite cool, like the political climate. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 07:13:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:13:56 -0400 Subject: House will vote on bill to regulate online campaign advertising Message-ID: <20010711101356.B29172@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 07:14:15 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:14:15 -0400 Subject: natsec in space Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010711101403.02109ec0@mail.well.com> SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE National Security Budget Strategic Subcommittee hearing on the budget request for national security space programs, policies, operations and strategic systems. Witnesses: General Ralph Eberhart, commander in chief, U.S. Space Command; Admiral Richard Mies, commander in chief, U.S. Strategic Command; Major General Franklin Blaisdell, director, Nuclear and Counter Proliferation Issues, USAF; Rear Admiral Dennis Dwyer, director, Strategic Systems Program Office, USN Location: 222 Russell Senate Office Building. 2 p.m. Contact: 202-224-3871 http://www.senate.gov/~armed_services **NEW** From rah at shipwright.com Wed Jul 11 08:44:45 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:44:45 -0400 Subject: DCSB: David Birch; European Wireless E-Commerce Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [The Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets and ties, but see below for details. While it lasts, anyway. Since last year's dot-bomb, the suit-ratio in the main dining room has been asymptotically approaching unity. :-). --RAH] The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents David G.W. Birch, Director, Consult Hyperion "M-Commerce and Wireless E-Commerce: A European Perspective" Tuesday, August 7th, 2001 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA Getting from the general view that m-commerce will be huge to the specifics of which business models will come to dominate the sector is difficult. First, no one knows anything about mobile data and so we have little to go on to make predictions. Second, the speed and unpredictability of technological evolution make it hard to stabilise the platform for services (especially when comparing North American wireless e-commerce with European m-commerce efforts). Third, there are legal, political and social issues yet to be resolved. Yet there have been some successes, and it is worth looking at them to try and understand the dynamics behind them. What are the real lessons to be learned from Japan's iMode? Why is business moving in on the text messaging boom? Is good old e-mail turning out to be the "killer app"? To what extent does the SIM shape the future? Does the French micropayments launch change anything? Do Australian Coca-Cola machines provide a window on the future or a diversion? Who will benefit most from E911 and the introduction of location-based services (my tip: lawyers). This presentation attempts an overview of these issues, against the backdrop of the 3G transition, and combines it with experience gained advising leaders in the m-commerce field to try and make some sensible predictions about the direction of the m-commerce sector. David G.W. Birch is a Director of Consult Hyperion, one of the UK's leading e-commerce consultancies, which he helped found after several years working as a consultant in Europe, the Far East and North America. Their clients -- ranging from Mastercard and Microsoft to Orange and NTT Data -- are working at the leading edge of commerce on line. A physicist by training, Dave has lectured on the impact of new communications technologies to MBA level. He has been on the editorial board of the Financial Times Virtual Finance Report and Microsoft's Finance on Windows, as well as the editorial advisory board for European Business Review. He chaired the Centre for the Study of Financial Innovation's first working group on the Internet and Retail Banking and is the moderator of First Tuesday's Wireless Wednesday resource for mobile entrepreneurs. He has written for publications ranging from The Guardian to the Parliamentary IT Review and is a media commentator on electronic commerce issues. He is the author, with payment systems consultant Mike Hendry, of last year's Informa report "Retail & Consumer Payments in Europe and North America". This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, August 7th, 2001, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $37.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, August 4th, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $37.50. Please include your e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (we've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Upcoming speakers for DCSB are: September Arnold Reinhold Product "Q"; Crypto Market Failures October Jean Camp Trust and Risk in Digital Commerce As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee, care of Robert Hettinga, . For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to . We look forward to seeing you there! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0 iQEVAwUBO0sACcUCGwxmWcHhAQEVkQf9HpIjgugwD8Gmr/OSeELJFLQ3PVh+B5I2 R78O4UfkGiauG2ye3wy14tP6/5f8Z0JwQyzuJpOcmgw0AwMXYUI1fGl5fkekTAZd pzVDjHrkJ5DrZb97XEi4PZh/KJ7mD3hlmFSzjaJS6+LkzLfRjJ6aKhazymy5O7mf /+IY8mc0KZTJKjszTo4cAXmAFK+ENvpLtgzqf3fWQam+cwNEB/pTWy544RYKLRix +eMSqW5baModyKxaEIWrSHc0P/VzBRAmquteEc9OEbhLoh9EwN9cK4eQOXhHFzkd th0rWTUcfiWoYDMv2aSAcN1edHwVh37Q30rn+htEvAPOIluh/youIQ== =axuG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Jul 11 11:51:37 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:51:37 -0700 Subject: freq meter vs. spectrum analyzer for sweeping Message-ID: <8e838f38d9e56664e07e1fee5c9b92a0@melontraffickers.com> Thanks a lot -- that's a great help. And no, we weren't looking for rf from the infinity tranmitter, I knew they run on the phone line, but we were looking for other bugs. And I'm also aware of the great number of telemarketer autodialers (used to have one myself with a hardwired voice mailbox but didn't use it for telemarketing), but it was the timing of these cals that aroused our suspicions. That and the really frequent phone company truck. Good to know about the possible out of the building, we'll have to start checking that out. From wamb2269 at wanadoo.be Wed Jul 11 02:56:56 2001 From: wamb2269 at wanadoo.be (wamb2269) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:56:56 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <007801c109ef$d7e494c0$1bb9e0d5@130.132.17.pandora.be> subscribe From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 11 03:56:02 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:56:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:45:13 -0400 From: Eliezer S. Yudkowsky Reply-To: extropians at extropy.org To: "extropians at extropy.org" Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010710/tc/life_satellites_dc_1.html == L.A. May Be Shot Down in Bid to Tax Satellites By Dan Whitcomb LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Los Angeles officials seeking to impose property taxes on space satellites were brought back down to Earth on Tuesday when a state board moved toward declaring satellites beyond the reach of even the tax collector. But Los Angeles County Assessor Rick Auerbach said he was not yet ready to scrap the proposed tax and would consider a court challenge if he finds that the California State Board of Equalization has circumvented state or federal law. It was Auerbach who determined that eight communications satellites owned by Hughes Electronics Corp.(NYSE:GMH - news) and currently in geostationary orbit 22,300 miles over Earth's equator were taxable as movable property that was currently out of state, similar to construction equipment. That decision prompted county officials to consider an assessment on the communications satellites, which are each worth up to $100 million new. But State Board of Equalization members appeared to short circuit that plan on Tuesday when they voted 5-0 to ``fast track'' a rule that satellites cannot be taxed, even though Hughes, a unit of GM (NYSE:GM - news), is based in Los Angeles. The decision came after presentations by Hughes and Auerbach and directs the board's staff to draft a rule declaring the satellites nontaxable. Board members would vote on that proposed rule in the coming months. George Jamison, a Hughes vice president, said the firm was relieved and pleased by what he called the ``good common sense'' of the board and said they considered the proposed tax a very bad idea from the start. HUGHES: TAX IS 'LUDICROUS' ``It's ludicrous, absolutely,'' Jamison said. ``It's the type of issue, quite frankly, that causes the company to consider relocating its base of operations to a more business-friendly environment.'' The satellites are not launched from California, do not pass over California while in orbit and will never return to the state, instead becoming space junk, he said. ``We think the ruling is important,'' Jamison said. ``These spacecraft are not be in the state of California, have never been in the state of California during their useful lives and will never be in the state of California in the future.'' Auerbach conceded that the board members ``have made up their mind already that the property is not taxable,'' but said the issue was not necessarily dead because he had researched the case and found legal opinions supporting his position. ``I'll have to see what basis they have for the rule,'' Auerbach said. ``If I believe it's improper (under the) U.S. Constitution and and state statutes my option is to go to Superior Court.'' ``I have to keep an open mind,'' Auerbach said. ``Based on the opinions I have I think it still looks taxable.'' Auerbach insisted that he was not pushing for a tax on the satellites but was simply doing his job and trying to determine whether they should be taxed. ``I'm neutral on the whole thing,'' he said. ``My job is to make sure all property that's taxable gets assessed and I'm going to follow the law. If the law says its not taxable it's not taxable. If it is taxable I will assess it.'' == From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 11 03:56:02 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:56:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 20:45:13 -0400 From: Eliezer S. Yudkowsky To: "extropians at extropy.org" Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010710/tc/life_satellites_dc_1.html == L.A. May Be Shot Down in Bid to Tax Satellites By Dan Whitcomb LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Los Angeles officials seeking to impose property taxes on space satellites were brought back down to Earth on Tuesday when a state board moved toward declaring satellites beyond the reach of even the tax collector. But Los Angeles County Assessor Rick Auerbach said he was not yet ready to scrap the proposed tax and would consider a court challenge if he finds that the California State Board of Equalization has circumvented state or federal law. It was Auerbach who determined that eight communications satellites owned by Hughes Electronics Corp.(NYSE:GMH - news) and currently in geostationary orbit 22,300 miles over Earth's equator were taxable as movable property that was currently out of state, similar to construction equipment. That decision prompted county officials to consider an assessment on the communications satellites, which are each worth up to $100 million new. But State Board of Equalization members appeared to short circuit that plan on Tuesday when they voted 5-0 to ``fast track'' a rule that satellites cannot be taxed, even though Hughes, a unit of GM (NYSE:GM - news), is based in Los Angeles. The decision came after presentations by Hughes and Auerbach and directs the board's staff to draft a rule declaring the satellites nontaxable. Board members would vote on that proposed rule in the coming months. George Jamison, a Hughes vice president, said the firm was relieved and pleased by what he called the ``good common sense'' of the board and said they considered the proposed tax a very bad idea from the start. HUGHES: TAX IS 'LUDICROUS' ``It's ludicrous, absolutely,'' Jamison said. ``It's the type of issue, quite frankly, that causes the company to consider relocating its base of operations to a more business-friendly environment.'' The satellites are not launched from California, do not pass over California while in orbit and will never return to the state, instead becoming space junk, he said. ``We think the ruling is important,'' Jamison said. ``These spacecraft are not be in the state of California, have never been in the state of California during their useful lives and will never be in the state of California in the future.'' Auerbach conceded that the board members ``have made up their mind already that the property is not taxable,'' but said the issue was not necessarily dead because he had researched the case and found legal opinions supporting his position. ``I'll have to see what basis they have for the rule,'' Auerbach said. ``If I believe it's improper (under the) U.S. Constitution and and state statutes my option is to go to Superior Court.'' ``I have to keep an open mind,'' Auerbach said. ``Based on the opinions I have I think it still looks taxable.'' Auerbach insisted that he was not pushing for a tax on the satellites but was simply doing his job and trying to determine whether they should be taxed. ``I'm neutral on the whole thing,'' he said. ``My job is to make sure all property that's taxable gets assessed and I'm going to follow the law. If the law says its not taxable it's not taxable. If it is taxable I will assess it.'' == From hotbizop at InfoGeneratorPRO.com Wed Jul 11 10:19:05 2001 From: hotbizop at InfoGeneratorPRO.com (hotbizop at InfoGeneratorPRO.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:19:05 -0400 Subject: Making SERIOUS MONEY has never been so EASY!!$$ Message-ID: <200107111719.NAA14378@www.infogeneratorpro.com> Wed Jul 11, 2001 Dear Friend, NEW CD ROM is helping to Create HUGE FORTUNES!! Free Info: * What if you could make a full time income handing/sending out a $1.25 CD ROM? * What if the company paid you EVERY DAY? * What if it was a New York Stock Exchange Company? * What if there was no "real" competition, and everybody needs our service? * What if you got paid when somebody goes to your website and views the hottest video presentation ever and signs up? IF you are the least bit curious about why this CD ROM is making us Fortunes All you need to do is simply: send an email to: sendmecdrom-12281 at infogeneratorpro.com and put "CD ROM" in the subject heading. 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By 'decentralized', I mean that NO central server, or subset of individual servers, controls access to any resource the system cannot work without; that there is no single point of failure. A consequence of this is that every ability that exists in any node, must exist in every node. So the whole problem of currency issue gets the slightly weird solution of "everybody has to be able to print their own money." The sticking point is that this basically means the system will be without any single universal "currency". A lot of E-cash techniques are usable, but what you wind up trading is certificates that represent goods or services offered by individuals in the system -- Alice the Farmer might issue certificates for bushels of wheat, while Bob the Carpenter might issue a bunch of certificates that say "collect a thousand of these and I'll redeem them for a new 10x10 meter deck on your house" and Carol the moneychanger might promise to redeem hers for one US dollar each, just for the amusement value of "redeeming" something in a system where hard currencies are the norm with a fiat currency. So these would be effectively a sort of digital merchants scrip, reducing back down to barter. Exchange rates between the currencies issued by different participants would fluctuate according to trust and commodity values, and I'm okay with that. Given the nature of the trust/reputation thing, I'd expect only a very small percentage of the participants to *actually* issue their own currency, as they wouldn't get good acceptance/exchange values until widely known, but everybody would have the ability. The problem I'm running into is that while all kinds of e-cash protocols exist that protect the anonymity of the buyer and a lot protect the anonymity of the seller, there are none that protect the anonymity of the currency issuer, which would be ideal in this circumstance. With the techniques I know of, the issuer can have only "Nym" protection. The basic problem with anonymizing the issuers (beyond technique alone) would be how the scrip gets redeemed when you don't necessarily know whom the issuer is. Can anybody recommend appropriate reading? Bear From amaha at vsnl.net Wed Jul 11 11:39:07 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:39:07 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107111839.f6BId2E18710@ak47.algebra.com> It is well go give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding. --Kahlil Gibran, 'On Giving,' The Prophet, 1923 ======================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Joy (A non-religious Organisation) From mhw at wittsend.com Wed Jul 11 11:04:33 2001 From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:04:33 -0400 Subject: freq meter vs. spectrum analyzer for sweeping In-Reply-To: ; from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 08:29:02AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010711140433.A27173@alcove.wittsend.com> On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 08:29:02AM -0700, A. Melon wrote: > bob said: > >You need a spectrum analyzer, which shows you signal strength vs. > >frequency. > > > >And you need to worry about intermittent ('burst') bugs. > > > >And WTF is an 'infinity' transmitter? > Umm, all the stuff being sold for counter surveillance are frequency > counters of one sort or another. > Infinity transmitter? I guess you don't know much about bugs > if you don't know that -- try a web search on the term. Amusing... And from what I can tell from the descriptions of the two types I saw, if you are looking for it with a frequency meter, grid dip oscilator, specturm analyzer, RF meters, or whatever, then you are barking up the wrong tree. Both of what I saw worked through the phone lines (one using the existing phone line and one using an additional phone line) and would not be emitting RF. Are you think of a third type that activates over the phone but transmitts on RF (Why? If it transmitts RF, why not activate it with RF and avoid the need for the telephone call in, entirely?) or were you just not thinking? I suppose that one might be led to the false conclusion that because someone put the word "transmitter" in the name that it must transmit RF. The mouthpiece of a telephone handset is also called a transmitter and doesn't emit a spec of RF. BTW... A voltmeter across tip and ring should detect the one type while the other type requires the installation of an additional phone line and wouldn't ring your phone. The former (single line) would also interfer with normal operation of the phone. Get a "call and hang-up", hang up, count to twenty, pick up, draw down a dial tone (which could, in theory be faked - classical modem callback trick) and call someone else, preferably someone with calling line ID who can verify your phone number (to avoid stupid loopthrough systems - another classic "man in the middle trick). The former also does not work well with ESS switches because it depends on "calling party disconnect" to hold the line open, which ESS will not do. The later (the two line system) was specifically advertised as working within ESS systems without requiring modification to the ESS system (obviously to work around the "called party disconnect"). From the desciptions I have seen for the "classic" ring-up single line infinity transmitter, it seems to be little more than the "classic" diode-bridge to hold a line off-hook where the calling party can still hear the called party phones after the called party hangs up. Lame... No transmitter, and you just have to install the bridge and controller anywhere on the POTS pair between the SLC and any of the phones, even outside the house on the drop line. If you have a few thousand feet of copper loop between you and the SLC, it doesn't even need to be in your subdivision. Nothing needs to be installed in the house at all to make that work. It's still lame and easy to detect (line voltage siting at off-hook voltage) and even a "busy line" detector you can get at Radio Shack (lits up to indicate when another extension is off hook) should detect it. But NOT with an RF detector. :-) Also wouldn't work with ISDN phones. As far as ring and hang up goes... We average about 2 of those per day, always from "out of area" and always tracks down to these moronic auto telemarketing boxes that overdial the number of operators. If you answer the phone and say "hello" and the autodialer doesn't have a free operator to had you off to, it hangs up the phone. Been discussions to make these illegal (since they don't give you an opportunity to tell them to add you to their "do not call list" they already violate FCC rules in theory) and to make the use of "out of area" CLID indicators by telemarketers illegal for the same reasons. I happen to know people who work for a company that designs and manufactures those devices. Some of these clowns configure them for dialing as many as 10 times as many numbers as people handling the calls. That way if you only get 1 out of 10 answering the phone, all your operators stay pretty much busy. If you get more than one out of ten answering the phone, you generate a lot of "call-and-hangup" calls. But you (the telemarketer) don't care about them because they can't identify you and they can't tell you to never call back and the extra calls don't interrupt your dinner. Mike -- Michael H. Warfield | (770) 985-6132 | mhw at WittsEnd.com (The Mad Wizard) | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/ NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471 | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! From grocha at neutraldomain.org Wed Jul 11 14:21:49 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:21:49 -0700 Subject: Digital Cash In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:30:44PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010711142149.A73282@neutraldomain.org> ,----[ On Wed, Jul 11, at 01:30PM, Ray Dillinger wrote: ]-------------- | Can anybody recommend appropriate reading? | | | Bear `----[ End Quote ]--------------------------- its not too much, in fact, it is not precisely what you are looking for. but check this paper out: http://freehaven.net/doc/mix-acc/mix-acc.pdf (also check out other papers on the freehaven project, they are working on prjects which, in theory are similar to what you just described.) http://freehaven.net/papers.html it is about reliabilty in mix net networks, describes a reliabilty system and (this is the part that might be of interest to you) it describes potential failures and weak points in a system that is theoretically similar to yours. hope that helps... --gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Jul 11 14:30:16 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:30:16 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? References: <3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> Message-ID: <000601c10a50$ae2694b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> No, the real question is who can knock down or render inoperable the OWNER of the satellite. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:58 AM Subject: Who can tax a satellite? > > ``I'm neutral on the whole thing,'' he said. ``My job is to make sure all > > property that's taxable gets assessed and I'm going to follow the law. If > > the law says its not taxable it's not taxable. If it is taxable I will > > assess it.'' > > > I suppose, as with any racket, whoever has the ability to knock the > satellites down or render them inoperable could levy a "tax" on them. From emailoffer-reply at xoom.com Wed Jul 11 14:39:00 2001 From: emailoffer-reply at xoom.com (NBCi Email Support) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:39:00 -0700 Subject: (KMM20276228C0KM) Message-ID: <200107112058.NAA12947@toad.com> This message is a computer-generated autoreply. Your request or inquiry could not be processed automatically and is being returned to you. E-mail sent to this address will not reach our support team. If you have a question or request, please resubmit it using one of the following links. To unsubscribe from NBCi newsletters: http://home.nbci.com/main/help/support/1,120,-0,00.html?area=uns OR mailto:subscriptions at nbci.com To contact the support team for other issues: http://home.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,home-223,00.html Thank you. --------Original Message-------- - st: cypherpunks at toad.com Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From dbob at semtex.com Wed Jul 11 14:49:59 2001 From: dbob at semtex.com (Dynamite Bob) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:49:59 -0700 Subject: why roasting Condit's weenie is delicious -watching the watchers Message-ID: <3B4CCA07.D3DC9385@semtex.com> from http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/iprs/20010711/cm/ten_commandments_sponsor_finds_demons_chasing_him_1.html Clearly Condit was declaiming against his own demons when he co-sponsored legislation calling for displaying the Ten Commandments in public buildings. How easy it is to forget the admonishment against adultery when it is not prominently posted at every turn in the Capitol. The argument typically advanced in support of the government's dabbling in religion is that the constitutional mandate of a separation of church and state erodes the power of religious truths and leads inevitably to a liberal, secular and amoral society. How then is one to explain Condit, who has been an evangelical Christian all his life? There's nothing liberal or secular about him. He's a strong pro-life, family values, Bible-quoting son of a Baptist minister who is rated highly by the Christian Coalition and flunks out with the ACLU. ... No more pearly white smile for photogs but the power haircut will look good when he does the perp walk in orange. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Jul 11 14:57:28 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:57:28 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? References: <3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> <000601c10a50$ae2694b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B4CCBC8.BF41AF0@lsil.com> The power to destroy is the power to tax. Did I get that backwards? I'm sorry. The power to tax is the power to destroy. I suppose it makes no difference. It's a statement of equivalence rather than implication. Nothing neutral about it, is there? Black Unicorn wrote: > > No, the real question is who can knock down or render inoperable the OWNER > of the satellite. > They're first cousins, I suppose. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:58 AM > Subject: Who can tax a satellite? > > > > ``I'm neutral on the whole thing,'' he said. ``My job is to make sure > all > > > property that's taxable gets assessed and I'm going to follow the law. > If > > > the law says its not taxable it's not taxable. If it is taxable I will > > > assess it.'' > > > > > I suppose, as with any racket, whoever has the ability to knock the > > satellites down or render them inoperable could levy a "tax" on them. From marketing at eyeclearing.com Wed Jul 11 15:03:47 2001 From: marketing at eyeclearing.com (marketing at eyeclearing.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:03:47 -0700 Subject: Eye stress ! or Stress eye ! Message-ID: <200107112203.PAA05914@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Jul 11 12:14:44 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <81a1e8c9bf48d92ae836ef306468bfe4@freemail.cotse.com> On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >Ghandi. Womens Sufferage (US). Jim Crow Laws (US). Vietnam. Civil Rights > >in the 60's. > >The point being, there are plenty of historical precidence where this sort > >of behaviour has led directly to the change desired by the protestors > >against a much better armed and entrenched foe. > > It depends on which sort of behavior you mean--none of these causes > believed in violence at all! >Um, you should review the 60's groups like the SDS and such. Exactly: those weren't the groups that made the real impact when it actually came to getting down to business and changing policy. Blame MKULTRA or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that they fell apart (and had their members killed or put in jail) whereas groups who didn't espouse violence continue to this day. And while >Ghandi certainly didn't believe in violence the same can't be said for the >rest of the Indian freedom movement (not all hailed to Ghandi). Without Ghandi, British policy would have taken a far different turn. Violence hasn't exactly been a stunning success for the IRA, has it. >As to >women sufferage, you need to do some more research there as well, not all >women are pascifist. they burned more than bra's... Guess you totally missed what I was trying to say about the Pankhursts. >You paint with too broad a brush (typical of the indoctrinating education >of the day - going all the way back to when I was a kid in the 60's) Oh come on. Address my points, don't insult me. We can get as specific as you like--there are too many issues here to cover them in adequate detail in a couple of posts. > Back in the day, anarchists used to assasinate people. >Every ilk assassinates every other ilk if given the oportunity and the >personality. Not Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Susan B. Anthony, Bobby Kennedy and and the vast majority of the people who espoused the causes you mentioned above. The ones who made the real difference--the ones who immediately come to mind every time we think of their cause--didn't espouse violence. If you want to talk about Che and Mao and Chairman Gonzalo, that's another story. > What came of it? >>The Indians are a free country. You and blacks can vote. Not because of the anarchists decision to espouse violence, which the point of the above question. If you want to talk about tactics of anarchists today, why not draw on examples from other groups who espoused violence, rather than comparing them to groups which largely used peaceful tactics. Apples and oranges. >The reality is, your example of the 'troops in the street willing to gun >'em down' (a paraphrase) is apt. The only thing stopping them is knowing >that the majority of people don't believe it. They still believe in the >'kindly policeman who's there to help you' of their youth. After Rodney King? the LAPD scandal? Abner Louima? Mumia? Patrick Dorismond? Not anymore. Ever see statistics on the way people perceive racial profiling? Maybe the "kindly cop" stereotype still holds in whitebread middle America, but the rest of the nation is getting a clue. >Want to see the other side? Kent State. True... > The Sacco and Vanzetti case. Here's an > uncomforably familiar bit on that--just fill in new details and it's as > contemporary as ever: >>One case does not a generalization make. Who said it did? I thought it was interesting to note how it paralells quite a few different cases today. Anyway, I certainly think it's more relevant to the effects of the tactics of anarchism than bringing up Ghandi. > Ouch. There's a real lesson there! >Yeah, you need to study history more. Who doesn't? Anyway, I wasn't bringing it up to score debate points or some childish thing like that, why counter it that way. Too bad you didnt see anything interesting there-- I really do think it's really worth considering, especially in light of the whole "counterterrorist mania". >You're trying to sit on the fence and at the same time stand on both sides. Not really, it's a complex set of issues. Why don't you say a little more in detail about why "spirit" is a more central issue than tactics, that ought to be interesting. ~Faustine. From john_galt at apexmail.com Wed Jul 11 16:44:07 2001 From: john_galt at apexmail.com (john galt) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:44:07 -0800 Subject: Creator of PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) To Speak in San Francisco Message-ID: <846930886994891447@apexmail.com> Phil Zimmermann, Creator of PGP (Pretty Good Privacy), and Leader in the OpenPGP Alliance, To Speak in San Francisco WHEN: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:30pm-8:30pm WHERE: ServOn 650 Townsend, Suite 252, San Francisco, CA; At the corner of 8th St. & Townsend St. Philip R. Zimmermann is the creator of Pretty Good Privacy. For that, he was the target of a three-year criminal investigation, because the government held that US export restrictions for cryptographic software were violated when PGP spread all around the world following its 1991 publication as freeware. Despite the lack of funding, the lack of any paid staff, the lack of a company to stand behind it, and despite government persecution, PGP nonetheless became the most widely used email encryption software in the world. After the government dropped its case in early 1996, Zimmermann founded PGP Inc. That company was acquired by Network Associates Inc (NAI) in December 1997, where he stayed on for three years as Senior Fellow. Zimmermann currently serves as Chief Cryptographer at Hush Communications, and is also consulting with a number of companies and industry organizations on matters cryptographic. BACKGROUND ON THIS EVENT: Over the past few years, the dot-com frenzy has created thousands of websites which together handle over billions of dollars in commerce each month. Now that growth-at-any-cost is over, what are the best strategies to protect what we've built? In the past twelve months, several of the top websites have been shut down, including Yahoo, Amazon, and eBay. Thieves stole 15,700 credit-card and debit-card numbers from a Western Union web site last fall. The FBI broke up a Russian theft ring that gained illegal access to 40 banks and e-commerce sites in 10 states by exploiting a well-known Windows NT vulnerability. Over a thousand web sites were defaced with expletives by a Chinese worm in the past two months. Most internet thefts and break-ins are never even reported in the media, because the victims are afraid of negative publicity. Security is an important piece of almost every web application delivered. Over the next few months, Software Developement Forum (http://www.sdforum.org) will be bringing in leading experts in many aspects of Internet Security and Privacy. They will explain which threats you should pay attention to first, and how to reduce risk. The non-profit Software Development Forum (SDForum) is the premiere Silicon Valley organization connecting software professionals, entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, industry experts and major technology companies. With a 10,000-person reach, 2000 individual members and 20-30 events each month, SDForum is a source of information, education and connection for people in Silicon Valley. MORE DETAILS AGENDA: 6:30-7:00pm registration/networking/pizza/refreshments (please arrive before 7:00 PM) 7:00-8:30pm presentation and discussion GETTING THERE: By car: Easy (for the city) street parking. Paid parking is available on the roof. By monoplized transit: Civic Center BART startion. Take the 19 bus, south on 8th street to the corner of Townsend and 8th street and you will be at the entrance of the building. You can walk from the BART station - it's a 6 block walk south. You may wait longer for the bus than it takes to walk. COST: $10 for non-SDForum Members No charge for SDForum members and students with ID To register for this event: https://www.123signup9.com/Member?PG=1854182300&P=185419116244800 If you would like to be a speaker at a security future event, or you know of someown who would, pleae reply to this message with 'speaker proposal' in the subject of the message. Much of this info is repeated here: http://www.sdforum.org/p/calEvent.asp?CID=429&mo=7&yr=2001 ApexMail now registers domains! www.apexmail.com From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 11 14:41:43 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:41:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Digital Cash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have you looked at Plan 9? It would allow you to run the 'mint' as a independent distributed service for all users that actually runs as no user. It would require a 'virtual filespace' so the requisite binaries and such don't reside on any one machine, not native but that's doable as well. Once started, as long as there were any Plan 9 process/file spaces available the service would 'live'. On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: > I've been attempting to design a decentralized auction/ > exchange system that permits pseudonymous participants. > By 'decentralized', I mean that NO central server, or > subset of individual servers, controls access to any > resource the system cannot work without; that there > is no single point of failure. > > A consequence of this is that every ability that exists > in any node, must exist in every node. So the whole > problem of currency issue gets the slightly weird > solution of "everybody has to be able to print their > own money." > > The sticking point is that this basically means the > system will be without any single universal "currency". > A lot of E-cash techniques are usable, but what you wind > up trading is certificates that represent goods or > services offered by individuals in the system -- Alice > the Farmer might issue certificates for bushels of > wheat, while Bob the Carpenter might issue a bunch of > certificates that say "collect a thousand of these and > I'll redeem them for a new 10x10 meter deck on your house" > and Carol the moneychanger might promise to redeem hers > for one US dollar each, just for the amusement value of > "redeeming" something in a system where hard currencies > are the norm with a fiat currency. So these would be > effectively a sort of digital merchants scrip, reducing > back down to barter. > > Exchange rates between the currencies issued by different > participants would fluctuate according to trust and > commodity values, and I'm okay with that. Given the > nature of the trust/reputation thing, I'd expect only > a very small percentage of the participants to *actually* > issue their own currency, as they wouldn't get good > acceptance/exchange values until widely known, but > everybody would have the ability. > > The problem I'm running into is that while all kinds of > e-cash protocols exist that protect the anonymity of > the buyer and a lot protect the anonymity of the seller, > there are none that protect the anonymity of the currency > issuer, which would be ideal in this circumstance. With > the techniques I know of, the issuer can have only "Nym" > protection. > > The basic problem with anonymizing the issuers (beyond > technique alone) would be how the scrip gets redeemed > when you don't necessarily know whom the issuer is. > > Can anybody recommend appropriate reading? > > > > Bear > From equitywatch at dbmaxpro.com Wed Jul 11 16:43:20 2001 From: equitywatch at dbmaxpro.com (equitywatch at dbmaxpro.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:43:20 Subject: Product Emerges in $Billion Industry Message-ID: <295.740889.209786@dbmaxpro.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5864 bytes Desc: not available URL: From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Jul 11 15:46:29 2001 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:46:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: screen name In-Reply-To: <3B40D6C4.5FF0D370@gncom.com> Message-ID: "fuckstain" HTH On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Harry Tod wrote: >Please send me the name I used as a screen name, in my July 2,2001 >registration, thank you, > Harry Tod > -- Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry. Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Jul 11 16:48:17 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:48:17 -0700 Subject: why roasting Condit's weenie is delicious -watching the watchers Message-ID: <3B4CE5C1.64687B7A@lsil.com> Gee who would've guessed he'd be a hypocrite? It never ceases to amaze me how the religions and their followers have convinced themselves and plenty of others that religion is the source of ethical thought, that they are the originators and keepers of the principles that arguably help people live together in groups. They're mere adopters and plagiarists and not for altruistic purposes either. > >from >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/iprs/20010711/cm/ten_commandments_sponsor_finds_demons_chasing_him_1.h>tml > > >Clearly Condit was declaiming against his own demons when he >co-sponsored legislation calling for displaying the Ten Commandments in >public buildings. How easy it is to forget the admonishment against >adultery >when it is not prominently posted at every turn in the Capitol. > >The argument typically advanced in support of the government's dabbling >in >religion is that the constitutional mandate of a separation of church >and state >erodes the power of religious truths and leads inevitably to a liberal, >secular >and amoral society. > >How then is one to explain Condit, who has been an evangelical Christian >all >his life? There's nothing liberal or secular about him. He's a strong >pro-life, >family values, Bible-quoting son of a Baptist minister who is rated >highly by >the Christian Coalition and flunks out with the ACLU. > >... >No more pearly white smile for photogs but the power haircut will look >good when he >does the perp walk in orange. > From measl at mfn.org Wed Jul 11 15:20:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:20:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: freq meter vs. spectrum analyzer for sweeping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Umm, all the stuff being sold for counter surveillance are frequency > counters of one sort or another. That's because Joe Sixpack can't even *hope* to afford a decent spectrum analyzer. My *nine year old* HP cost me just under $8,000.00 - _used_. If you are serious about sweeping, go rent one of these. Get one that covers at least up to 22ghz. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 17:21:48 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:21:48 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Wed Jul 11 14:29:46 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange Message-ID: <20010711212946.A82A62CB37@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #428 (July 11, 2001) Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________
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>> Q & A
   QUESTIONS:
     - Any help with Cold Fusion?
   ANSWERS:
     - Connecting credit card payments to site?
        H. Leach: Ways to accept credit cards

>> MEMBER SHOWCASES

>> MEMBER *REVIEWS*
     - Sites to Review: #128, #129, #130, #131 & #132!
     - Thanks for Review!

______________________________________________________

>>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<<

Do you a burning question about promoting your website, html design,
or anything that is hindering your online success? Submit your questions
to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
Are you net savvy? Have you learned from your own trials and errors
and are willing to share your experience? Look over the questions each
day, and if you have an answer or can provide help, post your answer to
MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Be sure to include your signature file so
you get credit (and exposure to your site).
 

QUESTIONS:

From: LBailey   - lbailey at softwarescene.com
Subject: Any help with Cold Fusion?

One of the web sites I administer was developed with
Cold Fusion 4.0.  Unfortunately, the developer is no
longer around.

I need to know how to code the index.cfm pages, so that
the long path name does not display in the browser's
address box.  I often have links from advertisers to
this site that are long and ugly.

Ex: mydomain.com/sale/brand/index.cfm?source=goto

Can you help?  Any and all information will be greatly
appreciated.

Loren Bailey / MCSE MCP+I
MaxLabs
1-713-586-7777  ext.202
 

ANSWERS:

From: Silktat2  - silktat at dcsi.net
Subject:  Ways to accept credit cards

>From: richard burgess - suwat54 at yahoo.com
>Subject: Connecting credit card payments to site? (Issue #426)
>
-- >I have been enjoying and learning via your information -
thank you. Now I am almost ready to launch my internet
business, but as I am quite naive to this, I can't
seem to find a way to connect visa or other credit
cards for payment for my service. < --

Hello Richard,

There are quite a few ways to set up for credit cards.

1. CCNow, they do everything for you and send any sales you
have on the 1st and 15th of the month. All this for 9% of the sale,
go to their site at     http://www.ccnow.com/     I use them and
have been pretty happy with them so far.

2. PayPal is another option to be able to take credit card on your
website. Set up their shopping cart and for 2% and $.30 on each
transaction, don't think you can beat it,  if your going to be doing
business on E-Bay or one of the other auctions you will need
something like this.     http://www.paypal.com/

The above are for small business just starting out on the internet,
no monthly charges, no set up fees, just a percentage of each sale.
If you are actually doing a large volume business there are other
methods for monthly fees that are reasonable.

I have used both of the methods described above and been very
happy with both. The next update on my site will reflect the paypal
features I have just added.

Hope this helps

Howard E. Leach
silktat2 at silktattoo.com
http://www.silktattoo.com
Home of Tattoo's on T-shirts and more!

______________________________________________________
 

>>>>>> WEBSITE SHOWCASES <<<<<<

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there are many ways to build a successful business. Just look at
these successful sites/programs other members are involved in...
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______________________________________________________

>>>>>> MEMBER *REVIEWS* <<<<<<

Visit these sites, look for what you like and any suggestions
you can offer, and send your critique to MyInput
And, after reviewing three sites, your web site will be added to
the list! It's fun, easy, and it's a great opportunity to give
some help and receive an informative review of your own site.
Plus, you can also win a chance to have y our site chosen for
a free website redesign. One randomly drawn winner each month!
 

SITES TO REVIEW:

Site #128: http://www.fabulousincome.com
Kay Strong
strongone at door.net

Site #129: http://www.mlmAnonymous.com
Tom Corbett
Tom.corbett at fuse.net

Site #130:  http://hometown.aol.com/laurigal47/myhomepage/sale.html
LauriGal47 at aol.com

Site #131: http://www.webwitness.homestead.com
John Stitzel
oldstitz at yahoo.com

Site #132:  http://www.essjayar.co.uk/
Stuart
stuart.reid at ntlworld.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

THANKS FOR REVIEW!

From: All Biz Services   - patty at allbizservices.com
Subject: Thanks - already incorporating changes!

Thanks so much for the review, comments and suggestions!
Have changed a few things already, including the addition
of my photo (ugh!)  You are absolutely right, however,
people do buy from people, not machines!
 
I tried to make the Order Here process more prominent
and also changed the PPPS to an email forward with
an autoresponder.
 
The only thing left to do is to create a logo. This is
truly something I've been struggling with.  Not the
how, I can do that, it's the what?
 
Ah well, one step at a time, right?
 
Thanks again,
 
Patty Baldwin
Need "Winning Sales Copy"? Click below
http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R22199_win
______________________________________________________
moderator: Amy Mossel  Moderator
posting:   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
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Copyright 2001 AEOpublishing

----- End of Your Membership Exchange ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ This email has been sent to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net at your request, by Your Membership Newsletter Services. Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.6atd5r57&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15681 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 11 17:58:23 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:58:23 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:58 AM 7/11/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >I suppose, as with any racket, whoever has the ability to knock the >satellites down or render them inoperable could levy a "tax" on them. Heh, right on. But some dingleberry in LA is not about to violate an international space treaty without *really* needing the publicity. The treaty that says you don't fight in space. (Yes, I know its toast when next the US needs to perform a little orbital cleansing.) Besides, when multiple gangs see an untaxed (but coercable) resource, they'll fight amongst themselves first for the territory. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 11 17:59:31 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:59:31 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <000601c10a50$ae2694b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> References: <3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010711175931.0096ba20@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:30 PM 7/11/01 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: >No, the real question is who can knock down or render inoperable the OWNER >of the satellite. > Cable landfalls... satellite control centers.. MAE... ESS.. same thing. I suppose that is a plug for a fully distributed system like pipe/black/whateverNet... From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 18:06:03 2001 From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (Brent) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:06:03 -0700 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move References: <200107121501.LAA27562@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: I whole heartedly agree. In the article it berated Violence Policy center for excluding the quotes by the founding fathers, a mistake paltry in comparison to that statement alpha ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Gaylor" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: CDR: Re: General Ashcroft make his move > [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Richard Stevens is author of the recent > book "Dial 911 and Die" published by the Jews for the Preservation of > Firearms Ownership. http://www.jpfo.org ] > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) > From: Richard Stevens > Subject: Matt -- we must protest when "our side" errs > To: Matthew Gaylor > > Dear Colleagues, > > The July 2001 Issue of NRA's America's First Freedom > magazine featured a cover picture of John Ashcroft and > highlighted the story of Ashcroft's letter indicating > that "the Constitution protects the private ownership > of firearms for lawful purposes." The magazine (at > pp. 35-37) exults in the reversal of Justice > Department policy on the Second Amendment. > > That's great. On page 37, the NRA reprints Ashcroft's > letter -- as though it were *in full* -- but omits the > footnote that exists in Ashcroft's actual letter. > > As you know, Ashcroft also said in that footnote in > his letter that the Constitution "does not prohibit > Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms > ownership for compelling state interests, such as > prohibiting firearms ownership by convicted felons." > > The NRA omitted a key element of Ashcroft's position > -- and then published the letter as though it were > complete. > > That omission is a terrible distortion -- and > seriously damages NRA's credibility with those of us > who know the whole truth. What else might the NRA > choose to omit, where the omission serves a PR > purpose? Are their reports from the UN correct? > Their reports about lobbying efforts and the positions > taken by NRA-backed candidates? > > I wonder who at the NRA thought it was a good idea to > distort the facts, and conceal the somewhat negative > truth, just to advance the appearance of NRA success? > That's the conduct we came to expect from HCI & Co. > ... now it has infected the NRA. > > Members like me should demand the NRA publish an > accounting of this mistake, fire the person who made > the mistake, apologize and repent from such conduct. > > --Richard Stevens > (my personal views only) > > ************************************************************************** > Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues > Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA > on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) > Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ > ************************************************************************** > > From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:24:42 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:24:42 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: <2uko6nqneadxa1v.110720012025@cvserver2> Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at einstein.ssz.com Wed Jul 11 18:26:48 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at einstein.ssz.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at einstein.ssz.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:26:48 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:26:57 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:26:57 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:31:45 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:31:45 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:31:47 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:31:47 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:36:29 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:36:29 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:36:31 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:36:31 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:39:49 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:39:49 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com Wed Jul 11 18:39:56 2001 From: WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com (WinBOMB_2.0 at toad.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:39:56 PM Subject: Looking for a massmailer and / or mailbomber? Message-ID: Guess which application I used to write you this email? It's called WinBOMB 2.0 (Beta 4 is the latest release) and the guy is giving it away for free. You can download it at http://www.chatventure.com/marbus/mailbomb.htm .. it's the best mail application I have ever seen. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 11 16:07:38 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pocket Wang Watch Message-ID: <200107112307.TAA23650@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Apparently the Wisconsin Supreme Court (that's one of our states, right?) just ruled a man convicted of failure to pay child support justly has less rights than unconvicted people: if he has any more children they will jail him. ---- How much is an NYPD plunger up the ass worth? $9 million dollars. Plug me. ---- Subject: Re: Dropping out of the USA Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:26:15 -0700 From: Tim May # # In any case, it's absurd to think one would # move to Russia to escape the problems of the U.S. Didn't you post that it was when you saw billboards in the area where you lived in Spanish that you knew it was time to move? http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,27126,00.html Jun 13 2001 Recently, Angelina Jolie admitted she couldn't stop thinking about sex, and loves it when men look at her. From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 11 19:13:19 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:13:19 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 5:58 PM -0700 7/11/01, David Honig wrote: >At 08:58 AM 7/11/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>I suppose, as with any racket, whoever has the ability to knock the >>satellites down or render them inoperable could levy a "tax" on them. > >Heh, right on. But some dingleberry in LA is not about to violate an >international >space treaty without *really* needing the publicity. The treaty that >says you don't fight in space. (Yes, I know its toast when next the US >needs to perform a little orbital cleansing.) > >Besides, when multiple gangs see an untaxed (but coercable) resource, they'll >fight amongst themselves first for the territory. I'll bet good money that Washington is leaning on L.A. to drop this ridiculous claim. For several decades the U.S. (and presumably Russia/FSU) has convinced the nations of the world that fees need not be paid to India, Botswana, and Shakedownistan just because U.S. satellites pass overhead. If L.A. is able to shake down Hughes for some tax to be distributed to the welfare bums and crack hoes, then Botswana and Shakedownistan will be next in line. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From info at giganetstore.com Wed Jul 11 11:46:23 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:46:23 +0100 Subject: Giganetstore.com apresenta Dmail Message-ID: <00b302346180b71WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> IDEIAS TEIS E ORIGINAIS Caros Clientes! A Giganetstore.com estabeleceu uma parceria com a D-Mail, empresa participada pela Dmail.it especializada na venda de produtos por cat獺logo quer offline, quer online. Segundo este acordo os visitantes e clientes da Giganetstore.com passam a ter acesso aos produtos disponibilizados pela D-Mail. O acesso 矇 poss穩vel, atrav矇s de um clique no bot瓊o designado por "Ideias teis", colocado na p獺gina da Giganetstore.com . Ideias 繳teis e originais, produtos inovadores, de grande utilidade e a pre癟o imbat穩vel, constituem uma proposta irresist穩vel, respons獺vel pelo grande sucesso da D-Mail em It獺lia, desde h獺 cerca de 15 anos. O que aqui lhe sugerimos s瓊o ideias 繳teis e presentes originais, em condi癟繭es muito vantajosas, sempre com garantia de satisfa癟瓊o ou reembolso. APRESENTA... VENTILADOR DE AR FRESCO Este aparelho inovador n瓊o se limita a remover o ar, mas funciona com um sistema de evapora癟瓊o de 獺gua que permite a ventila癟瓊o de ar REALMENTE FRESCO! 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Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5839 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at flex.com Wed Jul 11 23:31:31 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:31:31 -1000 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> At 04:13 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: >At 5:58 PM -0700 7/11/01, David Honig wrote: >>At 08:58 AM 7/11/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>>I suppose, as with any racket, whoever has the ability to knock the >>>satellites down or render them inoperable could levy a "tax" on them. >> >>Heh, right on. But some dingleberry in LA is not about to violate an >>international >>space treaty without *really* needing the publicity. The treaty that >>says you don't fight in space. (Yes, I know its toast when next the US >>needs to perform a little orbital cleansing.) >> >>Besides, when multiple gangs see an untaxed (but coercable) resource, >>they'll fight amongst themselves first for the territory. > >I'll bet good money that Washington is leaning on L.A. to drop this >ridiculous claim. I doubt it, or it would already be a dead issue. >For several decades the U.S. (and presumably Russia/FSU) has >convinced the nations of the world that fees need not be paid to >India, Botswana, and Shakedownistan just because U.S. satellites pass >overhead. If L.A. is able to shake down Hughes for some tax to be >distributed to the welfare bums and crack hoes, then Botswana and >Shakedownistan will be next in line. They aren't talking about rotating satellites though, they are talking about geostationary ones, ones that hover over CA, or are property that is administered from CA - not quite the same thing as passing overhead, or every airline would end up owing to every nation and state it flies over _for the act of flying over_ also. Reese From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Wed Jul 11 11:37:31 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:37:31 +0200 Subject: Dropping out of the USA Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >At 2:37 AM +0200 7/11/01, Anonymous wrote: >>Tim May wrote: >>> I will say that there is no country out there that seems to be >>> beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement, pace the points we discuss >>> so often about drug warriors, freezing of accounts, extradition, >>> etc. Even Yugoslavia has just bowed to U.S. financing pressures >>> (sending Milosevic to the Hague for a show trial). >> >>The cost is higher, though, especially the cost of figuring out what >>you are doing. You are mostly out from under the footprint. For >>example, it's much more difficult for the Feds to illegally tap your >>phone in, say, Russia. Also, it will be harder for them to do their >>thing without tipping you off. > >This begs the question: _which_ "Feds"? While it may be harder for >America's Feds to tap phones in Russia (but don't count on this being >true for long), the successors to the KGB and GRU are very active. >Russia even has draconian laws against crypto use which America was >unable to pass. > >In any case, it's absurd to think one would move to Russia to escape >the problems of the U.S. Russia sucks. For one thing, it's damned cold. Still, if you are doing something which is annoying to the USG and not the Russians, Russia is a better deal. Maybe not the best deal. It's not the case that all world governments have perfectly synchronized their witch hunts. >>The Feds have to use a certain amount of discretion when operating in >>other countries. When Ames was meeting his Russian handlers in >>Colombia, the FBI tried to catch him at it, but blew it because they >>were there illegally and had to exercise caution. > >Ames and Hanssen were textbook cases in "old school" thinking. They >literally used the old kind of dead drops: messages left in Coke cans >left at the base of oak trees in parks, chalk marks on mailboxes. >Jeesh. The point is that even in the most important case the FBI handled in a decade, they couldn't do a basic surveillance job in a friendly foreign country. Implication: the same applies to less important people. Sheesh. Harmon Seaver wrote: > How about Costa Rica? I met some people from there who said the > government there was very cool, no problems. OTOH, anyplace you go > that you're a foreigner, you always stand out. But Costa Rica has > always attracted me, both politically and geographically, because > the upland weather is quite cool, like the political climate. No standing army, either. What's the tax system like? Can people shoot guns legally? Net connection? Will you visit soon? From equitywatch at dbmaxpro.com Wed Jul 11 20:48:13 2001 From: equitywatch at dbmaxpro.com (equitywatch at dbmaxpro.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:48:13 Subject: Product Emerges in $Billion Industry Message-ID: <893.439368.728317@dbmaxpro.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5864 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at flex.com Thu Jul 12 01:19:51 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:19:51 -1000 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> At 09:57 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: >At 8:31 PM -1000 7/11/01, Reese wrote: > >>I doubt it, or it would already be a dead issue. > >Sure. Things happen instantaneously. Oz is all powerful. Not what I meant and you know, or should know it. >>>For several decades the U.S. (and presumably Russia/FSU) has >>>convinced the nations of the world that fees need not be paid to >>>India, Botswana, and Shakedownistan just because U.S. satellites pass >>>overhead. If L.A. is able to shake down Hughes for some tax to be >>>distributed to the welfare bums and crack hoes, then Botswana and >>>Shakedownistan will be next in line. >> >>They aren't talking about rotating satellites though, they are talking >>about geostationary ones, ones that hover over CA, > >None of them hover _over_ CA. Physically impossible. The Clarke Belt >is well-defined. Look into it. Your quibble is noted, you didn't even address the middle clause. >> or are property that >>is administered from CA - not quite the same thing as passing overhead, >>or every airline would end up owing to every nation and state it flies >>over _for the act of flying over_ also. > >News flash to Reese: Airlines DO make payments or other >considerations to nations they fly over. Do they also land in those countries they make payments to, pick up and drop passengers off? Or are you saying "Zed Airlines" that has no offices and makes no stops in "Zilch" but flies over it, makes payments to it? One real world example of such. >Jeesh. Every summer brings the return of "Reese" and "Petro." I nub you too. Do the letters "F O" mean anything to you? Reese From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Jul 11 22:24:42 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:24:42 -0700 Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B4CD22A.23995.429A06@localhost> -- > > > > The only logical conclusion I can see to skirmishes between black-clad > > > > anarchists, going on "street operations", and governmental riot control > > > > forces, is that the police are eventually given the right to just gun the > > > > protestors down, irregardless of whether they have *done* anything. Unless > > > Maybe in Finland, but here in the US, the government official that gave > > > the orders to shoot a crowd of protestors would *not* be working much > > > longer. > > (Actually the police here have far more stringent requirements for even > > drawing a gun than they do over there in the States. But that's not really > > the issue.) In Sweden, Gothenburg, police fired into a crowd. Arguably they had just cause. But US police, facing similar circumstances in Seattle, did not fire into the crowd. I do not wish to suggest that Swedish police are a bunch of stormtroopers. They are not. But the general trend is that the more disarmed the population, the more apt the police are to open fire. That is not merely a matter of lawsuits and stuff, but an inevitable consequence of human nature. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 4iw0kec3tTganQD7q8TbMH65nUr1tb215CbMEpSe 4trpBI/H5aOzqrzz0E7uz8A4I3JaK7CESp34reD6j From aimee.farr at pobox.com Wed Jul 11 20:46:27 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:46:27 -0500 Subject: Of Mice and Men (forbidden knowledge) Message-ID: Tim wrote: > ...work on cloning is > an exercise I'll leave for ... lawyers in Texas. > Odds are excellent that they are at least several years away > from actually attempting a human cloning. It's the groundwork, the > precursor knowledge, that the government is now cracking down on. A > very disturbing trend. Sounds like a fertility researcher's work ON MICE has been sensationalized into a lesbian-couple-cloning issue. http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,2323873%255E11610,00.html Babies: no men needed By ANNA PATTY 12jul01 MEN may no longer be needed for human reproduction as a result of Australian research. Researchers from Monash University have developed a method of fertilising an egg using cells from any part of a body  regardless of whether the body is male or female. Theoretically, it means that lesbian couples could reproduce without any need for male sperm. ... The technique has been used to fertilise a normal mouse egg by using a cell taken from the body of another mouse. ... A spokeswoman for Federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams said proposed legislation to allow States to override sexual discrimination laws  enabling them to prevent lesbian couples from participating in IVF treatment  was before the Senate. But Senator Brian Harradine said the Monash research was nothing short of cloning. "The Monash researchers are engaging in asexual reproduction," he said. "These scientists are driven by the technological imperative  if it can be done it should be done." [...] ~Aimee "Whatever we ain't got, that's what you want." From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 20:03:35 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:03:35 -0400 Subject: FC: Privacy: Where's the Profit? event Thurs 7/12 in Mountain View Message-ID: [I was scheduled to participate in this event organized by the Silicon Valley Association of Startup Entrepreneurs but, alas, won't be able to make it. It promises to be an excellent discussion, and I urge Politech members in the area to stop by. --Declan] ********* http://www.svase.org/nextmeeting.htm THE MAIN EVENT: SVASE Monthly Meeting Privacy: Where's the Profit? Microsoft Campus, Mountain View Thursday, July 12, 2001, 6 pm Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of startup business plans are based on exploiting privacy technologies. Technologies that protect privacy --- as well as business plans based on those that undermine it --- seem to come out nearly every week. Existing or proposed federal privacy laws will have a huge impact on whether those plans ever succeed. This extraordinarily high-powered panel of experts will sort through the issues and tell you what they view as the key issues for entrepreneurs facing - or hoping to make money from - the rules and regulations of electronic privacy. Our keynote speaker and moderator JIM HARPER, based in Washington, DC, is one of the world's preeminent experts in privacy policy. He is the founder and principal of PolicyCounsel.Com, a lobbying and consulting firm focused on e-commerce, technology, and telecommunications. He is the founder of Privacilla.org, the only online think-tank devoted to privacy as a public policy issue. Mr. Harper served as counsel to committees in both the United States House of Representatives and the United States Senate. He now works to help Congress and regulators understand the New Economy. In his presentation to SVASE, Jim will unpack the complex concept of privacy and discuss the thinking and plans of legislators, regulators, and advocates. Progress & Freedom Foundation (http://www.pff.org/) recently named Jim as an Adjunct Fellow. MARK UNCAPHER is Vice President and Counsel of the Information Technology Association of America, responsible for ITAA s Internet Commerce & Communications Division. The more than 100 members of the division include: Amazon.com, AOLTime Warner, AT&T, Boeing, Cable & Wireless, Covad Communications, EDS, Exodus, Focal Communications, Fujitsu Limited, Global Crossings, IBM, MCI WorldCom, Metromedia Fiber Network, Microsoft, Nortel Networks, SunGard Data, Teligent, and Yahoo. Uncapher argues that the issue is not about whether to protect consumer privacy on the Internet -- that is what the public expects and what Internet companies are determined to provide -- the challenge is to identify the best and most profitable ways to do so. DAVE KRAMER is a litigation partner with the reknowned law firm Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati. On the privacy front, Kramer has worked extensively with technology pioneers such as Google and Netscape, developing startups such as Napster and Yodlee, and new online entrants like Orbitz, Cogit and Enviz. Mr. Kramer will discuss the biggest threats companies currently face in the privacy arena, including privacy regulation. DECLAN McCULLAGH is Washington Bureau Chief for Wired News. He has been writing about the Internet since 1990. McCullagh moderates politech, a mailing list looking broadly at politics and technology that was founded in 1994. He has appeared on CNN, CNN-fn, Court TV, NPR, ABC News, CNBC, CBC, CSPAN, Reuters TV, and Fox News. He is a member of the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences and has been a judge in the Webby awards, the Ars Electronica awards, the Internet Freedom journalism awards, and the Pacific Research Institute technology privatization awards. RAY EVERETT-CHURCH, is a Principal at PrivacyClue LLC. Called the "dean of corporate privacy officers" by Inter at ctive Week Magazine, Ray Everett-Church is an internationally recognized expert on privacy law and policy. In 1999, he became the world's first corporate Chief Privacy Officer, a ground-breaking position soon adopted by dozens of Fortune 500 firms. Founder of PrivacyClue LLC, a privacy-oriented consultancy, he advises firms on developing privacy measures consistent with existing laws, prevailing consumer attitudes, and acceptable industry practices. He was previously an attorney with the Washington, DC-area telecommunications law firm of Haley Bader & Potts, and has counseled America Online, Microsoft, and numerous start-up ventures. __________________ Meetings costs are as follows: PRE-REGISTERED RATES Member Meeting Only - FREE Member Meeting & Dinner - $25 Non-Member Meeting & Dinner - $45 New Membership & Meeting - $125 New Membership, Meeting & Dinner - $150 Sponsor or Sponsor's Guest - FREE Sponsor or Sponsor's Guest Meeting & Dinner - $25 Student Meeting Only - $10 WALK IN RATES Member Meeting & Dinner - $35 Non-Member Meeting & Dinner - $55 New Membership & Meeting - $125 New Membership, Meeting & Dinner - $160 Meeting Agenda: 6:00 - Buffet Opens (Time for Networking) 7:00 - Announcements and Reports 7:15 - Panel Begins 9:00 - Final Announcements and More Networking The July meeting is being held at: Microsoft Silicon Valley Campus - Building 1 1065 La Avenida (formerly L'avenida) Mountain View, CA 94043 Phone: 650-693-4000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From Dentist at Opt-In-Products.com Wed Jul 11 23:04:40 2001 From: Dentist at Opt-In-Products.com (Dentist at Opt-In-Products.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:04:40 Subject: Adv:Are you happy with your smile? Message-ID: <200107112312203.SM02236@208.38.149.160> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is never sent unsolicited. You have recently visited our web site, referral or affiliate sites which indicated that you were interested in services local to Huntington Beach. If this has reached you in error, we sincerely apologize. Just email RemoveMe at Opt-in-Products.com, place the word "remove" in the subject line and your address will be removed immediately. --.----------------------------------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<****>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research has proven that people who smile a lot are happier <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<****>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are often healthier, lead more productive lives, have a lot of friends, and generally, are just better off. So you have to ask yourself the question are you smiling enough? If youre not smiling because you dont like the way your teeth look then click here http://www.Opt-in-products.com/smile From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 20:05:11 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:05:11 -0400 Subject: Privacy: Where's the Profit? event Thurs 7/12 in Mountain View Message-ID: <20010711230511.A12451@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From easymoneyforu at home.com Wed Jul 11 23:29:16 2001 From: easymoneyforu at home.com (easymoneyforu at home.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:29:16 Subject: Easy Money Message-ID: <200107120445.f6C4j7E13993@ak47.algebra.com> Hello Friend, I want to show you what I do for fun, which will make me an ADDITIONAL $250,000 THIS YEAR ALONE....and it takes only a fraction of the time that you and I spend at our regular jobs. Basically, I send out as many of these emails as I can, then people send me cash in the mail for information that I just email back to them. Every day, I make a three minute drive to my P.O. Box knowing that there are at least a few hundred dollars waiting for me. And the best part, IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL. Just read the next few pages and see what you think. If you like what you read, great....If you don't, read it again because you must have missed something! ------------------------------------------------------------ DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 US Dollars expense one time. THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say Bull, please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are absolutely NO laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE (Or have it emailed to you-See Submit Button below) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following, THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ===========Order all 5 reports shown on the list below===== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING AND YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST... $ 5 X 5 = $ 25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. IMPORTANT: DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in each step 1 through 6 or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed, because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down to report # 5. 3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down to report # 4. 4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down to report # 3. 5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down to report # 2. 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ***Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails, only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people responding to and ordering Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e- mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $ 5 EACH = $ 500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1...$ 50 + 2...$ 500 + 3..$ 5,000 4... $ 50,000 + 5... $ 500,000... GRAND TOTAL = $ 555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $ 5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. AVAILABLE REPORTS ========================================= ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $ 5 cash (US CURRENCY) for each report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & NAME of the Report you are ordering., YOUR E- MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. ****************** PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: REPORT # 1: The Insider's Guide To Advertising For Free On The Net Order Report # 1 from: Scott Lyons P.O. Box 2368 Frisco, Tx 75034 Report #2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk E-Mail On The Net Order Report #2 from: David Oualline 14307 Brook Hollow Blvd San Antonio, TX 78232 Report # 3: The Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net Order Report # 3 from: Tony Diodato 4730 Levick Street Philadelphia PA, 19135 Report # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Utilizing MLM & The Net Order Report # 4 from: Robert Youngblood P.O. Box 425384 San Francisco, CA 94142 Report # 5: How To Send 1 Million E-Mails For Free Order Report # 5 from: Geoffrey Gimbel 160 East 38th Street, Apt 22A New York, NY 10016 $$$$$YOUR SUCCESS GUIDE$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report # 1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME, SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is no limit to the income you can generate from this business!!! FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report # 1 and moved others to # 2...# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ===================================================== If you believe this message has reached you in error, or if you wish to unsubscribe to this mailing list, please reply to the above email address with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 21:54:35 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:54:35 -0400 Subject: FC: Singapore orders political websites to register with government Message-ID: [I wrote this article before seeing the mail from the Singapore government to one political site. Note the site, sintercom, is not set up by political candidates -- it is intended for political discussions, much like Politech or Slashdot. See the text below. --Declan] ********* http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,44866,00.html Slinging Shots at Singapore By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. July 9, 2001 PDT SAN MATEO, California -- Singapore's most twisted, droll and insanely popular humor site launched quietly enough last year after one of its editors got dumped from a dying Internet company in the United States. "I was in a failed dot-com, and I was trying to figure out what to do after that," said Singapore expatriate K.K. Cheong, editor of TalkingCock. "A bunch of us got together and started brainstorming and decided that what Singapore really needs is a real humor magazine. Something edgy." One year later, TalkingCock has become the country's equivalent of The Onion or MadCowCulture -- a smart, savvy, and occasionally raunchy humor zine that delights in poking fun at Singaporean culture and politics. Some recent headlines include an undeniably funny mock interview with President Bush, an article entitled "Singapore's Worst Job Revealed: Wanking Elephants," and a report on helpful civil servants offering to impregnate Singaporean wives who have difficulty conceiving a child. [...] The Singapore Straits-Times reported last month that in addition to regulating how political parties may use the Web, the government also wants to enforce "responsible use" of the Internet by news organizations. ... A Singapore government source who is familiar with TalkingCock said on Wednesday it was too soon to tell how worried the site's writers should be. "It would be going after the content and not specific websites," said the source, who did not want to be identified. "It would not be the case that TalkingCock.com by its very nature would be subject to regulation. It would depend on its content." [...] ********* [This letter has been retyped from postal mail and is provided to me by a very reliable source. sintercom.org is not related to talkingcock.com other than they share a similar user base and both openly discuss issues about Singaporean life, making them something of a rarity. (sintercom is more serious and talkingcock is purely satire.) The sintercom editors are now reportedly considering options such as moving the site offshore, saying that an earlier legal exemption still applies, or allowing the Singapore government to censor whatever they like and replacing deleted content with a big "CENSORED BY SBA" logo. --Declan] 7 July 2001 Dear Mr Tan and Ms Goh Registration of Website - Sintercom 1. We note that your website www.sintercom.org engages in the propagation, promotion and discussion of political issues relating to Singapore. 2. Please be informed that under the Singapore Boradcasting Authority (class Licence) Notification 1996, any body of persons engaged in the propagation, promotion or discussion of political issues relating to Singapore on the Internet is required to register with the Authority. 3. Please complete the enclosed registration form B and form B2, and return the completed forms to me within 14 days fromthe date of this letter. 4. Do feel free to call me at 837 9385 should you have any queries. Thank you. Yours sincerely Paglar Yvonne Ann (Ms) Management executive (new media policy) for Chief executive officer SBA [Form B is entitled: Political parties ergistered in Singapre OR individuals/groups/organisations/corporations providing political or religious content] [Form B2 is a declaration: site agrees to accept full responsibility for the content on the abovementioned website, including the content of discussion groups carried on it.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From tcmay at got.net Thu Jul 12 00:57:30 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:57:30 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> Message-ID: At 8:31 PM -1000 7/11/01, Reese wrote: >I doubt it, or it would already be a dead issue. Sure. Things happen instantaneously. Oz is all powerful. > >>For several decades the U.S. (and presumably Russia/FSU) has >>convinced the nations of the world that fees need not be paid to >>India, Botswana, and Shakedownistan just because U.S. satellites pass >>overhead. If L.A. is able to shake down Hughes for some tax to be >>distributed to the welfare bums and crack hoes, then Botswana and >>Shakedownistan will be next in line. > >They aren't talking about rotating satellites though, they are talking >about geostationary ones, ones that hover over CA, None of them hover _over_ CA. Physically impossible. The Clarke Belt is well-defined. Look into it. > or are property that >is administered from CA - not quite the same thing as passing overhead, >or every airline would end up owing to every nation and state it flies >over _for the act of flying over_ also. News flash to Reese: Airlines DO make payments or other considerations to nations they fly over. Jeesh. Every summer brings the return of "Reese" and "Petro." --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From declan at well.com Wed Jul 11 21:59:10 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:59:10 -0400 Subject: Singapore orders political websites to register with government Message-ID: <20010712005909.A21035@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From ming at planetmongo.net Thu Jul 12 01:12:13 2001 From: ming at planetmongo.net (ming) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought it was sats of companies based in CA, not that the sat is "hovering" that's the comparison to off-shore property of CA corporations or individuals such as boats, etc? Also, about airlines. Not sure they pay countries they fly over without landing, wouldn't they only pay landing fees, customs fees, and taxs at an airport? When planes get routed through a sovereign nation's airspace is there any way to collect fees other than sending a bill back to its nation of origin? stu [This is a sig file] note: just expressing an opinion. Can I still do that in the 21st century? On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > At 8:31 PM -1000 7/11/01, Reese wrote: > > >I doubt it, or it would already be a dead issue. > > Sure. Things happen instantaneously. Oz is all powerful. > > > > >>For several decades the U.S. (and presumably Russia/FSU) has > >>convinced the nations of the world that fees need not be paid to > >>India, Botswana, and Shakedownistan just because U.S. satellites pass > >>overhead. If L.A. is able to shake down Hughes for some tax to be > >>distributed to the welfare bums and crack hoes, then Botswana and > >>Shakedownistan will be next in line. > > > >They aren't talking about rotating satellites though, they are talking > >about geostationary ones, ones that hover over CA, > > None of them hover _over_ CA. Physically impossible. The Clarke Belt > is well-defined. Look into it. > > > or are property that > >is administered from CA - not quite the same thing as passing overhead, > >or every airline would end up owing to every nation and state it flies > >over _for the act of flying over_ also. > > News flash to Reese: Airlines DO make payments or other > considerations to nations they fly over. > > Jeesh. Every summer brings the return of "Reese" and "Petro." > > --Tim May > > -- > Timothy C. 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If not, I am very sorry and your can please reply with title :Remove from list to remove your email: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Jul 11 22:23:14 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:23:14 -0400 Subject: Digital Cash In-Reply-To: ; from Ray Dillinger on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:30:44PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010712012314.A8352@economists.cryptohill.net> On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:30:44PM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > [Anonymous, everyone a mint, floating exchange rates problem...] > > The problem I'm running into is that while all kinds of > e-cash protocols exist that protect the anonymity of > the buyer and a lot protect the anonymity of the seller, > there are none that protect the anonymity of the currency > issuer, which would be ideal in this circumstance. With > the techniques I know of, the issuer can have only "Nym" > protection. > > The basic problem with anonymizing the issuers (beyond > technique alone) would be how the scrip gets redeemed > when you don't necessarily know whom the issuer is. Probably people would be willing to accept other issuers currencies even if they don't know the issuer so long as they had the reputation rating for the currency / issuer. But anonymous reptuations alone aren't any use as a rational issuer would refuse to redeem if the action didn't adversely affect his reputation -- you need to be assured that the rating of the anonymous issuer will be downrated if they refuse to redeem. So then perhaps you could proceed by having unlinkably anonymous credentials for reputation with a trap-door for the rating party so that the rating party can identify the pseudonym behind the unlinkable credential and downrate it. You also want the unlinkable rating credentials to need to be refreshed by the rating credential issuer in order to re-show. Brands' credentials have this property if you reshow without collaboration with the issuer, they are linkable (and hence would be linkable to the transaction gone bad which triggered the downrating). One might desire also that the rating credential issuer not be able to link general transactions, even with collusion from all parties except the issuer. However I'm not sure if this is going to be possible; the rating issuer must be able to link to the nym in event of foul play by the currency issuer, and clearly ability to link from unlinkable payments to a nym links the payments. The only avenue I see is if the foul play were mathematically encapsulatable and could be combined with the protocol so that the rating issuer is only able to link payments to nyms in the event of foul play. Do you think you can encapsulate foul play formally generally enough to be useful in your application? Adam From tcmay at got.net Thu Jul 12 01:43:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:43:12 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> Message-ID: At 10:19 PM -1000 7/11/01, Reese wrote: >At 09:57 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: >>At 8:31 PM -1000 7/11/01, Reese wrote: >>News flash to Reese: Airlines DO make payments or other >>considerations to nations they fly over. > >Do they also land in those countries they make payments to, pick up and >drop passengers off? Or are you saying "Zed Airlines" that has no offices >and makes no stops in "Zilch" but flies over it, makes payments to it? > >One real world example of such. Learn to use a search engine. Search on the obvious terms, like "airlines overflight payments." The first such hit you will find in Google, one of hundreds, is: "FAA ESTIMATES CUBA OWES US$1 MILLION FOR OVERFLIGHT FEES- Information obtained from an inquiry to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) within the United States Department of Transportation by the U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council shows that Republic of Cuba government-operated Cubana Airlines and Republic of Cuba government-operated AeroCaribbean Airlines were invoiced approximately US$1 million by the FAA for the period May 1997 to 31 January 1998 for overflight fees." Is this enough for the "one real world example"? Or, like many quibblers, do you claim that "one example" is not enough? 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Click here to be removed ========================================================= From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 12 07:29:34 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:29:34 -0500 Subject: UK manufacturer launches stool sampling cyber-loo Message-ID: I remember something like this already being done in Japan w/ regard to public toilets... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/20340.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Jul 12 09:52:26 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:52:26 -0700 Subject: Big Brother the toilet troll Message-ID: <3B4DD5CA.A576C865@lsil.com> Um, what would the price premium be for a toilet that operates as a stoolie? 10X? 20X? Don't hold your breath waiting for it to become a standard. Ever seen the commodes in Japan with all sorts of knobs and switches? Reminds me of a joke I heard about same long ago. Rather than take serious risks leave the bells and whistles alone and use the compatibility mode. Poop jokes on CP. Jeesh. Mike From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 12 07:54:21 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:54:21 -0500 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > > >Tim's comment about facial recognition ("Smart CCTV" on the > signage) being a > >social mindgame does bring to mind predictions of a surveillance caste > >system and real-space criminal "blocks" or enclaves (i.e. Escape From New > >York). "We're watching you" = "Don't come here," pragmatically forcing > >undesirables outside legitimate transactional and social systems. Bear wrote: > Right. Between all the "offender databases" and "surveillance > for your (cough) protection" and so on, anyone who's got a > record winds up so completely frozen out of normal society that > it becomes impossible for them to get by without continuing as > a part of criminal society. Some of Florida's convicted criminals are under constant supervision without being housed in prisons, thanks to the use of Global Positioning System (GPS). The system, which is currently monitoring 600 convicts in Florida, uses a satellite, and can be programmed to alert authorities when a sex offender, for instance, is going near a schoolyard. GPS tracking is more effective than the old electronic monitoring system, which many states still employ. The new technology can locate the offender from room to room within a house, or on a street corner. However, probation officers will still have to physically check on persons who are on the program, which lasts about two years. The new system costs $9.17 per day, compared to $50 a day for an state prison-housed inmate, or $3 per day for conventional electronic monitoring. (www.sunsentinel.com) Source: NLECTC Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary From tiffany at usenix.org Thu Jul 12 10:13:41 2001 From: tiffany at usenix.org (Tiffany Peoples) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:13:41 -0700 Subject: 10th USENIX SECURITY SYMPOSIUM Message-ID: <3B4DDAC3.44BFC944@usenix.org> Dear Cypherpunks: I was hoping you could forward the following security conference information (below) to your subscribers. Please let me know if you have a more appropriate method for submitting this information. (ie, a calendar of conferences/events page) Thank you for your assistance! Best Regards, Tiffany Peoples, Marketing Coordinator USENIX Association 2560 Ninth Street, Suite 215 Berkeley, CA. 94710 ph (510) 528-8649 x31 fx (510) 548-5738 ----------------------------------------------------------- 10th USENIX SECURITY SYMPOSIUM August 13-17, 2001 Washington, D.C. For more information and to register, visit: http://www.usenix.org/events/sec01 --------------------------------------------------------------- REGISTER BY JULY 20, 2001 AND SAVE UP TO $200! Join security professionals, system and network administrators, and researchers for a high-level, five-day tutorial and refereed technical program. * Keynote address by Richard M. Smith, CTO of the Privacy Foundation * 25 refereed papers on the best new research, including "Reading Between the Lines: Lessons from the SDMI Challenge" by Edward W. Felten, Princeton University, and his research team * Practical and immediately useful tutorials and Invited Talks by industry leaders. * Matt Blaze, AT&T Research Labs * Mark Eckenwiler, U.S. Department of Justice * Eric Murray, SecureDesign, LLC * John Young and Deborah Natsios, Cartome.org In depth, immediately useful TUTORIALS: * Wireless IP Security and Connectivity * Network Security * Intrusion Detection and Network Forensics * Hacking Exposed: Live! * Cryptographic Algorithms Revealed * VPN Architecture and Implementation =============================================================== The 2001 10th Security Symposium is sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association. www.usenix.org =============================================================== From roy at scytale.com Thu Jul 12 08:28:02 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:28:02 -0500 Subject: Soon Big Brother will know your shit... Message-ID: <3B4D7BB2.2507.7D0562@localhost> Spotted off Drudge: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1433000/1433904.stm Yes, sir, I sure want my toilet to decide that I need more roughage. The page describes a toilet with automated stool and urine analysis, which communicates over the net to a doctor or even a grocery store. Not much of a stretch to envision a remotely upgradeable system that can be instructed to run drug screens or collect DNA. Sure glad this is just a prototype. -- Roy M. Silvernail Proprietor, scytale.com roy at scytale.com From id-support at verisign.com Thu Jul 12 10:41:39 2001 From: id-support at verisign.com (VeriSign Customer Support Department) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID Message-ID: <200107121741.f6CHfdS16423@maguro-cm2.verisign.net> Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder: Thank you for obtaining a 60-Day Trial Digital ID from VeriSign! 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ID-support at verisign.com From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Jul 12 08:01:07 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move Message-ID: <200107121501.LAA27562@www0.aa.psiweb.com> General Ashcroft has announce the Second Amendment applies to individuals. This will apparently affect the case of a Tim Emerson, a Texas physician accused of violating a 1994 law barring people under restraining orders from having guns. The DOJ is currently appealing the case claiming the Second Amendment does not extend to an individual the right to guns. http://www.bradycampaign.org has filed an ethics complaint against Ashcroft. WWW illiterate: http://usdoj.gov doesn't work. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Thu Jul 12 11:30:12 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:30:12 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) Message-ID: <1db370c7a42928f2ad5ff5def690f0ab@melontraffickers.com> Bear saith: > >Right. Between all the "offender databases" and "surveillance >for your (cough) protection" and so on, anyone who's got a >record winds up so completely frozen out of normal society that >it becomes impossible for them to get by without continuing as >a part of criminal society. > >It's the twenty-first century. Nobody cares if you go straight >anymore.... Which brings this to mind again. This and the Where to go thread. So where and what are the disenfranchised to go and do? I'm a middle aged IT professional, recently downsized from a very good job. I also have a felony conviction for selling pot back in the 60's -- big deal, eh? Well it is now -- I've been turned down for three jobs because they did a background check. I no longer even bother to apply if they mention background or drug checks -- which rules out one hell of a lot of places these days and it's on the increase. I never had a background check before this for any job. What does that have to do with my ability to write code? I'm seriously considering taking up robbing banks -- what the hell, my health isn't too good, I have no insurance, can't get a job -- and fuck no, I won't work at Hardees. Why should I? What does my record have to do with my productivity -- my work record is excellent. I've also thought a lot about suicide, but figure if I'm going that far, I might as well give bank robbery a try -- I can always blow my brains out if I get caught. I had a lot of time to think about this, and I'm not finding many answers -- and like Bear and others have said, the future looks pretty bleak. Another thing that set me off on this rant was May's comments about "black hoes" etc. I guess I've come to understand quite well what it means to be black. Fuck it -- why not welfare if you can, why not sell drugs or rob? If the other option is working at a fast food place? Fuck that and fuck anybody who thinks you should. From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 12 11:33:03 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big Brother the toilet troll In-Reply-To: <3B4DD5CA.A576C865@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >Um, what would the price premium be for a toilet that operates as a >stoolie? 10X? 20X? Don't hold your breath waiting for it to become a >standard. The hell of it is, this provides a useful function. The only thing that makes it invasive is that it communicates with people OTHER than the one whose poop it's analyzing. I'd actually pay a substantial amount of money to have a "health monitor" system in place -- to alert *me* to any problems or parasites in my gut, so that *I* could take appropriate action (or not, as I choose). Why the hell does this guy want it to talk to people other than the one with the health interest? Bear From amaha at vsnl.net Thu Jul 12 10:14:48 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:14:48 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107121714.f6CHEmE08085@ak47.algebra.com> What is a friend? A single soul dwelling in two bodies. --Aristotle, from Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Joy (A Non-religious Organisation) From declan at well.com Thu Jul 12 09:44:40 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:44:40 -0400 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:19:51PM -1000 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> Message-ID: <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:19:51PM -1000, Reese wrote: > > I nub you too. Do the letters "F O" mean anything to you? Now this is certainly a new high point in cypherpunklian discourse. -Declan From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 12 04:11:46 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:11:46 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: WATCHING YOU WATCHING THEM: Edupage, July 11, 2001 (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:09:08 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: WATCHING YOU WATCHING THEM: Edupage, July 11, 2001 >WATCHING YOU WATCHING THEM >New tracking technology in cell phones, interactive TVs, and >GPS-enabled rental cars is raising privacy concerns. Already, >several companies are developing software to help track and make >use of data collected from TV set-top boxes. The Center for >Digital Democracy, an advocacy group for consumer privacy, is >currently lobbying for regulations on the use of such technology >that targets ads and gathers personal data. Aware of the possible >government restrictions, the Association for Interactive Media is >trying to outline privacy guidelines for interactive TV operations >such as Microsoft's UltimateTV and the TiVo recorder. Currently, >those companies are outside of cable regulations because they >make use of phone lines. A host of companies are rushing to take >advantage of a FCC deadline for wireless carriers to be able to >pinpoint the location of cell phone users. Besides being able to >locate users in 911-emergency cases, companies will be able to >send location-specific wireless ads to subscribers of wireless >Internet services. >(Boston Globe, 9 July 2001) For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Thu Jul 12 04:11:46 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:11:46 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: WATCHING YOU WATCHING THEM: Edupage, July 11, 2001 (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:09:08 -0400 From: David Farber To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: WATCHING YOU WATCHING THEM: Edupage, July 11, 2001 >WATCHING YOU WATCHING THEM >New tracking technology in cell phones, interactive TVs, and >GPS-enabled rental cars is raising privacy concerns. Already, >several companies are developing software to help track and make >use of data collected from TV set-top boxes. The Center for >Digital Democracy, an advocacy group for consumer privacy, is >currently lobbying for regulations on the use of such technology >that targets ads and gathers personal data. Aware of the possible >government restrictions, the Association for Interactive Media is >trying to outline privacy guidelines for interactive TV operations >such as Microsoft's UltimateTV and the TiVo recorder. Currently, >those companies are outside of cable regulations because they >make use of phone lines. A host of companies are rushing to take >advantage of a FCC deadline for wireless carriers to be able to >pinpoint the location of cell phone users. Besides being able to >locate users in 911-emergency cases, companies will be able to >send location-specific wireless ads to subscribers of wireless >Internet services. >(Boston Globe, 9 July 2001) For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From hseaver at ameritech.net Thu Jul 12 11:14:23 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:14:23 -0500 Subject: Big Brother the toilet troll References: <3B4DD5CA.A576C865@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3B4DE8E8.5596416C@ameritech.net> Funny, I just read a piece in a medical journal about these. They were talking about a approx. $1500 price tag, which is not too outrageous. mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Um, what would the price premium be for a toilet that operates as a > stoolie? 10X? 20X? Don't hold your breath waiting for it to become a > standard. Ever seen the commodes in Japan with all sorts of knobs and > switches? Reminds me of a joke I heard about same long ago. Rather than > take serious risks leave the bells and whistles alone and use the > compatibility mode. > > Poop jokes on CP. Jeesh. > > Mike -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 12 11:35:23 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:35:23 -0500 Subject: Appeals court sets guidelines for penetrating anonymity online Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/yro/01/07/12/1719229.shtml James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From freematt at coil.com Thu Jul 12 11:59:42 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:59:42 -0400 Subject: Proliferation of Surveillance Devices Threatens Privacy Message-ID: Proliferation of Surveillance Devices Threatens Privacy Joint Statement of House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-TX, And The American Civil Liberties Union FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Wednesday, July 11, 2001 WASHINGTON -- Over the past several days, a troubling expansion in the way technology is being used in the surveillance of ordinary Americans has come to light. In response, we are today joining together to call on all state and local governments to stop using these dangerous technologies now before privacy in America is so diminished that it becomes nothing more than a fond memory. Majority Leader Armey will ask the General Accounting Office to study the extent to which the federal government is funding facial-recognition technologies. In addition, he will ask the relevant House Committees to hold hearings on law enforcement use of surveillance technology. The ACLU supports these requests. Tampa, Florida drew attention to the importance of these issues with its highly publicized use of facial recognition technology during this year's "snooperbowl." The city recently took the next step by using the software to scan individuals in an entertainment district. Virginia Beach announced this week that it will seek state funding to install similar facial-recognition cameras in its oceanfront areas. In Colorado, the Department of Motor Vehicles is moving ahead with a plan approved by the Legislature to create a database containing computerized three-dimensional facial maps of all those applying for driver's licenses. There is an alarming potential for misuse of all of these systems. Used in conjunction with facial-recognition software, for example, the Colorado database could allow the public movements of every citizen in the state to be identified, tracked, recorded and stored. These surveillance systems are ineffective and will lead the police to stop people who have done nothing wrong. According to the Los Angeles Times, a recent study by the National Institute of Standards and Technology found that digital comparisons of posed photos of the same person taken 18 months apart triggered false rejection by computers 43 percent of the time. Police relying on this technology will be led too often to stop and question the innocent instead of the suspect. These cameras do not generate suspicion adequate to trigger a law enforcement stop. Instead, they may lead to high-tech "racial profiling" should surveillance cameras be placed in areas populated primarily by members of ethnic and racial minority groups. We are extremely troubled by this unprecedented expansion in high-tech surveillance in the United States. We believe that technology should not be used to create a "virtual line up" of Americans who are not suspected of having done anything wrong. The threats to privacy in America are all too real. We believe the privacy risk outweighs any benefits that these devices may offer. It's time to take notice of what has happened to privacy in America today. The ACLU of Florida has asked Tampa city officials for additional information about what its facial recognition program. For more information, see: http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/n070601a.html Copyright 2001, The American Civil Liberties Union ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From freematt at coil.com Thu Jul 12 12:01:03 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:01:03 -0400 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <200107121501.LAA27562@www0.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200107121501.LAA27562@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Richard Stevens is author of the recent book "Dial 911 and Die" published by the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. http://www.jpfo.org ] From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 12 13:31:54 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:31:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace anonymity manual In-Reply-To: <3B4CD22A.23995.429A06@localhost> Message-ID: So, the Seattle crowd was better armed than the Swedish crowd? It makes a nice theory, when do you present your argument behind it? On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > In Sweden, Gothenburg, police fired into a crowd. Arguably they had just > cause. > > But US police, facing similar circumstances in Seattle, did not fire into > the crowd. > > I do not wish to suggest that Swedish police are a bunch of stormtroopers. > They are not. But the general trend is that the more disarmed the > population, the more apt the police are to open fire. That is not > merely a matter of lawsuits and stuff, but an inevitable consequence of > human nature. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 15:41:57 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <20010712012314.A8352@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <20010712224157.19340.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> > Probably people would be willing to accept other issuers currencies even if > they don't know the issuer so long as they had the reputation rating for the > currency / issuer. > > But anonymous reptuations alone aren't any use as a rational issuer would > refuse to redeem if the action didn't adversely affect his reputation -- you > need to be assured that the rating of the anonymous issuer will be downrated > if they refuse to redeem. > > So then perhaps you could proceed by having unlinkably anonymous credentials > for reputation with a trap-door for the rating party so that the rating > party can identify the pseudonym behind the unlinkable credential and > downrate it. You also want the unlinkable rating credentials to need to be > refreshed by the rating credential issuer in order to re-show. Brands' This just shifting the issue without actually solving it - instead of mint visibility now we have credential issuer visibility. There goes credential issuer. The basic point here is that: a) most "public" (including me and the few that I talked with) will not "trust" money that is pure math, without actual *people* (who can be pulped if something goes wrong) behind it. Pulpability (in this special meaning) is a key ingredient in trust - you trust someone that agrees to be hurt if she misuses the trust. Fuck the math, new advances happen and most do not understand it any way. b) The competition (government) will pulp the pulpable mint. So, n-way blind e-cash will never happen. It may be a nice thing to bullshit about and to do PhD thesis and patents on and thus attract chicks, but it will never happen. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 14:03:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:03:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DCSB: David Birch; European Wireless E-Commerce (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 12 14:09:47 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:09:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: <1db370c7a42928f2ad5ff5def690f0ab@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Which brings this to mind again. This and the Where to go > thread. So where and what are the disenfranchised to go and do? [Long sorry tale deleted] Start your own company doing some sort of consulting/IT/technical support for small to medium sized businesses. One aspect I've found very succesful is to do 'on site' and not have an 'office' per se. Unless you live in BFE you should be able to bring in enough cash through that to keep the table and lights working. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 14:16:50 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:16:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > As you know, Ashcroft also said in that footnote in > his letter that the Constitution "does not prohibit > Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms > ownership for compelling state interests, such as > prohibiting firearms ownership by convicted felons." Where is that boundary condition in the amendment? Saying "felons may not own firearms" is certainly an infringment. Rights don't come from the state after all (see 1st two para's of the DoI). Amendment II A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 15:31:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:31:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <200107122209.SAA23884@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Gee, how pure and simple. Well see... > What is your position on the First Amendment and: > > o "obscenity" What is 'obscene'? > o child pornography What is 'pornography'? As to the 'child' part of that, any interaction with a minor in any way without parental consent should be grounds for immediate hanging (just kiddin'). > o generated non-child child pornography What two or more consenting adults do is between them and nobody else. Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Now a couple of questions for you... Where in the Constitution does it say the fed's are supposed to regulate pornography or sex? Where in the Constitution does it draw a distinction with regard to 'the people' between adults and minors? The 10'th Amendment clearly makes these issues STATE issues, not federal ones. Simply because a bunch of religious fascist/socialist wanna do it don't make it right. See first two para's of the DoI. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From georgemw at speakeasy.net Thu Jul 12 17:37:31 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:37:31 -0700 Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <20010712224157.19340.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010712012314.A8352@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <3B4DE05B.17622.1AE3F2A4@localhost> On 12 Jul 2001, at 15:41, Morlock Elloi wrote: > The basic point here is that: > > a) most "public" (including me and the few that I talked with) will not "trust" > money that is pure math, without actual *people* (who can be pulped if > something goes wrong) behind it. You say that now, but what if the day comes when digital currency schemes have been in successful operation for years, and there are goods or services you desire that can be had far cheaper (or only) if you use digital currency? YOU won't dive in with the stuff, but assuming it can be made to work at all, there may be enough brave/foolhardy people to bootstrap the system to the point where it has been demonstrated "safe". BTW, the usual term for what you call "pupability" is "accountability". Usually one speaks of people being "held accountable" rather than "pulped". I'm not criticizing your choice of terminology, but I think communication is facilitated if people stick tostandard terminology rather than making up their own. Also, bank officers caught defrauding their customers in the real world are more likely to be sent to minimum security prison rather than bludgeoned to death. > b) The competition (government) will pulp the pulpable mint. > Possibly. Or there's another possibility, that maybe the government officials who have "pulping" authority will become clients of digital cash systems themselves. > So, n-way blind e-cash will never happen. It may be a nice thing to bullshit > about and to do PhD thesis and patents on and thus attract chicks, but it will > never happen. > > Seldom say never. BTW, a PhD helps you get chicks? Where? George > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 18:03:24 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <20010712195030.B6465@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: <20010713010324.31739.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> > Then we have an issuer of one use (and hence unlinkable) credentials > representing the reputation of the mint. So these are reputation credential > issuers. My thought was that there would similarly be reputation credential > issuers -- (potentially) everyone a reputation credential issuer. *WHO* do you beat up if they lie ? If you *can* beat up someone, so can the government. We are back to the basic fallacy of cyberspace, that somehow crypto and networks will switch the address space under Men with Guns, so that they will be left in their own empty pages while we roam the virtual memory. This is an excellent example why some things need to be addressable in gov-pages (meatspace) and therefore pulpable. > This seems like a technology trust issue. It seems just to do with > branding, advertising and common acceptance. A mag-swipe card could fail, a > bank could empty your acount, their security could fail and someone else > empty your account via ATM. People trust the systems because their friends > trust them and seem to use them without incident and they want to use the This is patently false. If something goes wrong with my account I deal with meat in the bank. In US of A you are not liable for stolen card use. In US of A you can say "no, I did not withraw this cash" - EVEN IF YOU DID - and bank does not have much choice - some hoofed cpunks may know the exact case name. Technology in banking is just a tool, a helper. You can dispute any and all charges. Cards and ATMs are just tokens and machines with no property or ownership. Companies behind them, with very well known coordinates, are the ones you do the business with. > higher than purely as a immediately cleared payment mechanism. With the > reputation system you could even have insurance. Any e-cash system that has shared address space with Men with Guns will be run by Men with Guns. Take, for example, the Anon Mint Insurance Company. How would it assess the risk in order to determine the premium ? There are *no* established anon mints and there can be no insurance for anon startup mints(1). Unless you disclose some meatspace addresses, and then we have MwG, and so on. It's easy to bring life to moon by providing all support from Earth. But we have *no* "Earth" in anon e-cash, and MwG will take care that it remains so. Which is exactly why there is no anon e-cash today. (1) if there is, I'll become rich in no time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Jul 12 15:09:19 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move Message-ID: <200107122209.SAA23884@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Jimminy Critic wrote: # # Where is that boundary condition in the amendment? Saying "felons # may not own firearms" is certainly an infringment. Rights don't # come from the state after all (see 1st two para's of the DoI). # # Amendment II # # A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of # a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, # shall not be infringed. Gee, how pure and simple. What is your position on the First Amendment and: o "obscenity" o child pornography o generated non-child child pornography From submit-yahoo at globalexpresssubmit.com Thu Jul 12 18:14:21 2001 From: submit-yahoo at globalexpresssubmit.com (submit-yahoo at globalexpresssubmit.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't pay $199! Listed at Yahoo $50! Message-ID: <200107130114.SAA00534@svs46.virtualis.com> Join now and get listed at Yahoo and 13,500 + engines and directories nationally and internationally. We have been active in search engine placement for over two years. 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Again, thank you...." http://globalexpresssubmit.com/submit-yahoo/ http://globalexpresssubmit.com/submit-yahoo/ AOLers CLICK _________________________________________ Your email address will not be distributed to third parties. This is an automated response to your URL submission to our FFA Link Page. If you wish to be removed please reply with the subject "Remove" and you will automatically blocked from future mailings or simply click the email address below and send submit-yahoo at globalexpresssubmit.com. To report abuse please send a email to abuse at globalexpresssubmit.com From yourmom at family.com Thu Jul 12 09:17:44 2001 From: yourmom at family.com (yourmom at family.com) Date: 12 Jul 2001 18:17:44 +0200 Subject: Picture Message-ID: <0bcc74317160c71IECINET@iecinet> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4721 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 16:28:57 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:28:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <20010712224157.19340.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote: > b) The competition (government) will pulp the pulpable mint. Not if they can't find it. > So, n-way blind e-cash will never happen. It may be a nice thing to bullshit > about and to do PhD thesis and patents on and thus attract chicks, but it will > never happen. As long as we use the current OS and network models - yes. With other inherently distributed and anonymous models - maybe. http://plan9.bell-labs.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 16:33:01 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:33:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <200107122256.SAA17767@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Jimminy Critic wrote: > # > # Now a couple of questions for you... > > Yabut you gave cryptic replies, like > answering a question with a question. Some answers are question, even if one doesn't recognize, like, or want to accept it. > # Where in the Constitution does it say the fed's are supposed > # to regulate pornography or sex? > > Interstate commerce? It has to cross a state boundary. Prove that ALL pornography crosses state boundaries. Prove that one mans 'pornography' is the same as every other mans 'pornography', otherwise you're breaking the 1st by supporting specific 'religions'. > # Where in the Constitution does it draw a distinction with regard > # to 'the people' between adults and minors? > > You're right! The Constitution only applies to white males! You're an ass. > # The 10'th Amendment clearly makes these issues STATE issues, > # not federal ones. > > So, the SCOTUS has no jurisdiction to claim jurisdiction? Where in the Constitution does it give the SCOTUS the job of claiming ANY jurisdiction outside of the 10th? > # Simply because a bunch of religious fascist/socialist wanna do > # it don't make it right. > > SCOTUS or Congress? ANY... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 18:39:26 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <3B4DE05B.17622.1AE3F2A4@localhost> Message-ID: <20010713013926.49896.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> > You say that now, but what if the day comes when digital > currency schemes have been in successful operation for years, > and there are goods or services you desire that can be had far > cheaper (or only) if you use digital currency? Hmmm ... this sounds like a dot-com business plan :-)) > if people stick tostandard terminology rather than > making up their own. Also, bank officers caught defrauding their > customers in the real world are more likely to be sent to minimum > security prison rather than bludgeoned to death. I am talking about ideal world. Pulpability is exactly what I meant to say, it deals away with euphemisms. > Seldom say never. BTW, a PhD helps you get chicks? Where? Berkeley. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 16:41:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:41:37 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Violence flares again in N.Ireland - July 12, 2001 Message-ID: <3B4E35B1.8C877993@ssz.com> All that discipline and training didn't help these blokes... http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/12/nireland.portadown/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Jul 12 15:56:22 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move Message-ID: <200107122256.SAA17767@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Jimminy Critic wrote: # # Now a couple of questions for you... Yabut you gave cryptic replies, like answering a question with a question. # Where in the Constitution does it say the fed's are supposed # to regulate pornography or sex? Interstate commerce? # Where in the Constitution does it draw a distinction with regard # to 'the people' between adults and minors? You're right! The Constitution only applies to white males! # The 10'th Amendment clearly makes these issues STATE issues, # not federal ones. So, the SCOTUS has no jurisdiction to claim jurisdiction? # Simply because a bunch of religious fascist/socialist wanna do # it don't make it right. SCOTUS or Congress? From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 12 17:34:19 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:34:19 -0500 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: <20010712141611.F235@workstn.my.domain> Message-ID: Hey Lyn, I know, I know.... actually, I'm a baby privacy, surveillance law/policy and investigative law lawyer. I'm still in my first few years of practice, so I haven't advertised an area yet. (Choosing a practice area is a gut-wrenching decision, nailing yourself to it is even more difficult.) So, yeah...I hear how sucky the bumper beepers are. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ARE WE TO LET CPUNKS KNOW ABOUT MY PRACTICE INTERESTS, or I will get covered up in crazies. Raytheon, whatever... *laughter* ~Aimee Lyn Kennedy wrote: > And as usual, this was written by some PR flack without a clue. GPS needs > at least three satellites visible to determine location (not "a" sat). > Also it doesn't work inside most houses. The frequencies used are even > attenuated by trees. Much more by wood, bricks, etc. Even though there > might be some advantages, it's mostly a way to rip off the taxpayers for > more money. > > > BTW, one of your notes said you are in Waco. What kind of law do you > practice? Should I keep your number handy in case I get arrested for > watching planes at TSTC airport while munching my Whopper? Or do you > work for Raytheon? > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | 73, E-mail | lrkn at anet-dfw.com | > | Lyn Kennedy webpage | http://webusers.anet-dfw.com/~lrkn/ | > | K5QWB pony express = P.O. Box 5133, Ovilla, TX, USA 75154 | > ---Livin' on an information dirt road a few miles off the superhighway--- From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Thu Jul 12 16:40:37 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange Message-ID: <20010712234037.CF107239CE@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #429 (July 12, 2001) Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________
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>> Q & A
   ANSWERS:
     - Connecting credit card payments to site?
        T. Lee: Information on credit card processing for your site

>> MEMBER SHOWCASES

>> MEMBER *REVIEWS*
     - Sites to Review: #129, #130, #131 & #132!
     - Site #128 Reviewed!

______________________________________________________

>>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<<

Do you a burning question about promoting your website, html design,
or anything that is hindering your online success? Submit your questions
to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
Are you net savvy? Have you learned from your own trials and errors
and are willing to share your experience? Look over the questions each
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ANSWERS:

From: Teri S. Lee   - tslee at newz2me.com
Subject:  Information on credit card processing for your site

>From: richard burgess - suwat54 at yahoo.com
>Subject: Connecting credit card payments to site? (Issue #426)
>
-- >I have been enjoying and learning via your information -
thank you. Now I am almost ready to launch my internet
business, but as I am quite naive to this, I can't
seem to find a way to connect visa or other credit
cards for payment for my service. < --

I would like to help out with information on getting credit card
processing for a site.

First, check with your host and make sure they allow business
accounts on your server! Then if that is ok'd check the amount
of traffic you are allowed and be sure the server will handle
your customer traffic.

For the service itself, there are several ways to go. You can
set up a full merchant account (Just do a search for the words
"merchant Account" in any search engine and you will find plenty
of offerings.) Then do the research with each company to check
for fees, per sale charges, how it will be integrated into your site
(secure server or a link, etc.) and whether or not it will work with
your shopping cart software if you have one. Check with other
customers of the account provider and make sure they are happy
with the processing time, how the charge backs were handled,
the security of the server, etc.

There are several drawbacks to this method the first being cost.
Usually you have to pay a set up fee, a monthly fee, a per charge
fee, a charge back fee, and possibly a fee for equipment. You also
have to pass a credit check and wait for the account to be set up.

The second method is to sign up with a processing company that
processes your sale for you and then keeps a part (a percentage
ranging from 5% to as high as 45% that I've seen) of each sale to
process each order.

The customer just clicks on the "buy now" link on your site
and they are whisked away to the secure page the processing co.
has set up for your item. Each item usually has it's own page so
you don't usually have a shopping cart with this method.

A good example of this kind of provider is ClickBank.com or
iBill.com. ClickBank has a 49.00 set up fee (one time not per item)
and a $1 +7% fee per transaction. iBill has no set up fee but
charges 15% of each transaction.

The disadvantage to this method is that it is difficult to set up
a shopping cart system, so selling multiple items may be tough.
You could set up groups of items as single items though, and
work around it that way. The advantages are that you don't
have to pass a credit check or get seperate merchant accounts
for visa/mc, discover, and AX who all use different merchant set ups.

Click Bank and iBill will also will run an affiliate program for
you complete with tracking, paying the commissions and all of
the details such as stats, fraud tracking, and paying the affiliates
who only get $ for each sale- not click thru. This will increase
your sales exponentially!

The third method is a service like PayPal.com which is like iBill
and ClickBank but doesn't have the ability to run an affiliate program.
They have just started to offer a shopping cart feature and they
have no sign up fees, no monthly fees and only charge $3.00 + 3%
(the last time I checked) per transaction.

I hope this helps-

Your friend on the web,

Teri S. Lee
http://newz2me.com Internet Newsletter Directory. Free newsletters,
resources, tools and services. Free software, email accounts, and
more. Sign up for our free newsletter and get $100+ in thank you
gifts and a free ad!
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"Get All the News @ Newz2Me!"

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>>>>>> MEMBER *REVIEWS* <<<<<<

Visit these sites, look for what you like and any suggestions
you can offer, and send your critique to MyInput
And, after reviewing three sites, your web site will be added to
the list! It's fun, easy, and it's a great opportunity to give
some help and receive an informative review of your own site.
Plus, you can also win a chance to have y our site chosen for
a free website redesign. One randomly drawn winner each month!
 

SITES TO REVIEW:

Site #129: http://www.mlmAnonymous.com
Tom Corbett
Tom.corbett at fuse.net

Site #130:  http://hometown.aol.com/laurigal47/myhomepage/sale.html
LauriGal47 at aol.com

Site #131: http://www.webwitness.homestead.com
John Stitzel
oldstitz at yahoo.com

Site #132:  http://www.essjayar.co.uk/
Stuart
stuart.reid at ntlworld.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SITE  REVIEWED!

Comments on Site #128: http://www.fabulousincome.com
Kay Strong
strongone at door.net
~~~~

I think the site is very attractive but have a little bit of a bone
to pick with any MLM program that offers what they called
a "Partner Program" since I feel those terms to be generally
associated with affiliate programs and felt a bit misled when
I went over there and realized it was MLM.  However, as
MLM sites go, this one is done well.

It always helps me to see a picture of the business owners
and Kay and hubby look very nice.
~~~~

I liked the design of this site. The font was easy to read and
the information clear and easy to understand. For improvements
I do have some easy suggestions:
1- I did have to use the horizontal scroll bar with some of the pages
2- On the 'takeamoment' page the last sentence should have had
    a question mark before the enter link.
3- Sometimes the enter link or findoutmore link was blue, sometimes
    black. Always have it the same.
4- findout.html page, 3rd paragraph, 'ealth' should be 'wealth'
5- findout.html page, last paragraph, last sentence, 'committ' should
    be 'commit'
6- No contact information for Kay & Bob
~~~~

A typical biz op page. The product is health supplements.
The page is nice and clear, and the photo of the two of the
proprietors adds a personal touch. The information is all there,
but the buttons on the side bar open in new windows while
the links in the main frame open there. Not much to fault.
Does its job pretty well.
~~~~

This website seemed to be too big for my screen - a lot of
horizontal scrolling to read the text. Other than that I liked
this site, but on the Usana site it was linked to there were
missing graphics and some typos.
~~~~

I found the site fabulousincome to be targeted to people
new at network marketing.  The information was great for
them, but for me I would have liked to see a page with just
the facts, maybe a bullet point outline of the major benefits
and how joining with them would be good for me. I didn't
like having to go through page by page to get to a form to
get a report. Nice layout though.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
______________________________________________________
moderator: Amy Mossel  Moderator
posting:   MyInput at AEOpublishing.com
______________________________________________________

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Copyright 2001 AEOpublishing

----- End of Your Membership Exchange ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ This email has been sent to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net at your request, by Your Membership Newsletter Services. Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.j694xu57&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 17934 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alq at fbi.gov Thu Jul 12 19:41:34 2001 From: alq at fbi.gov (Alfred Qeada) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:41:34 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) Message-ID: <3B4E5FDD.6B2432AB@fbi.gov> At 11:30 AM 7/12/01 -0700, A. Melon wrote: >Bear saith: >> >>It's the twenty-first century. Nobody cares if you go straight >>anymore.... > > Which brings this to mind again. This and the Where to go >thread. So where and what are the disenfranchised to go and do? >I'm a middle aged IT professional, recently downsized from a >very good job. I also have a felony conviction for selling pot >back in the 60's -- big deal, eh? Well it is now -- I've been >turned down for three jobs because they did a background check. Please list the companies. What state are you in? In some states the evil weed is more evil than others. If you were squeaky clean since, and your friends were too, you could work for the NSA, so its funny that you should run into that much trouble. Have you looked into having this removed from your record? Sometimes judges will do that. For Jah's sake, tossing a dog into traffic only gets you probation... From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 12 19:47:44 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:47:44 -0700 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <200107122209.SAA23884@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010712194744.008aae20@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:09 PM 7/12/01 -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >What is your position on the First Amendment and: > > o "obscenity" > > o child pornography > > o generated non-child child pornography And synthetic images depicting *cloned* children... From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Jul 12 16:50:30 2001 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:50:30 -0400 Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <20010712224157.19340.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>; from Morlock Elloi on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:41:57PM -0700 References: <20010712012314.A8352@economists.cryptohill.net> <20010712224157.19340.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010712195030.B6465@economists.cryptohill.net> On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:41:57PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > > Probably people would be willing to accept other issuers currencies even if > > they don't know the issuer so long as they had the reputation rating for the > > currency / issuer. > > > > But anonymous reptuations alone aren't any use as a rational issuer would > > refuse to redeem if the action didn't adversely affect his reputation -- you > > need to be assured that the rating of the anonymous issuer will be downrated > > if they refuse to redeem. > > > > So then perhaps you could proceed by having unlinkably anonymous credentials > > for reputation with a trap-door for the rating party so that the rating > > party can identify the pseudonym behind the unlinkable credential and > > downrate it. You also want the unlinkable rating credentials to need to be > > refreshed by the rating credential issuer in order to re-show. Brands' > > This just shifting the issue without actually solving it - instead of mint > visibility now we have credential issuer visibility. There goes credential > issuer. So I have two types of issuer. The currency issuer (let's call them mints to avoid confusion). Ray has every one a mint (potentially, some users may choose to use other peoples mints to avoid having to manage the reputation of their own). Floating exchange rates based on reptuation of the mint. Then we have an issuer of one use (and hence unlinkable) credentials representing the reputation of the mint. So these are reputation credential issuers. My thought was that there would similarly be reputation credential issuers -- (potentially) everyone a reputation credential issuer. Also Stubblebine et al have a paper about abuse control with unlinkable anonymous credentials. They way they do this is to have one unlinkable credential which you can show only once. Then you can trade it for a fresh unlinkable credential if there have been no complaints against the current credential. Because the fresh credential is freshly blinded it's not linkable. And yet you retain some scope for abuse control, if the proof of misconduct arrives before you've handed over the new credential. (The Stubblebine paper doesn't say much more than that. Do a web search if you want the paper. It was in the context of unlinkable subscriptions to services, where you want to renew, but the service operator wants the ability to cancel abusers of their AUP's subscriptions.) Seems like this might be usable here. > The basic point here is that: > > a) most "public" (including me and the few that I talked with) will not > "trust" money that is pure math, without actual *people* (who can be > pulped if something goes wrong) behind it. Pulpability (in this special > meaning) is a key ingredient in trust - you trust someone that agrees to > be hurt if she misuses the trust. Fuck the math, new advances happen and > most do not understand it any way. This seems like a technology trust issue. It seems just to do with branding, advertising and common acceptance. A mag-swipe card could fail, a bank could empty your acount, their security could fail and someone else empty your account via ATM. People trust the systems because their friends trust them and seem to use them without incident and they want to use the system because of convenience or some other useful attribute. > b) The competition (government) will pulp the pulpable mint. > > So, n-way blind e-cash will never happen. It may be a nice thing to > bullshit about and to do PhD thesis and patents on and thus attract > chicks, but it will never happen. Ray's scheme sounds interesting because it's a computer mediated Letts scheme. Letts schemes seem to exist with manual book-keeping. Also trust levels needed to trust in something as a value store are much higher than purely as a immediately cleared payment mechanism. With the reputation system you could even have insurance. Adam From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 12 19:50:41 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:50:41 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: References: <20010712141611.F235@workstn.my.domain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010712195041.00975400@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:34 PM 7/12/01 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: >Hey Lyn, > >I know, I know.... actually, I'm a baby privacy, surveillance law/policy and >investigative law lawyer. My kid is 21 months old. Would you still take him on as a baby privacy client? He's getting concerned about the number of baby pictures I've put up on the web, and was talking about getting a lawyer. He'd probably have to pursue a judgement, not just a restraining order, against me in order to pay you. Are you licenced in Calif? :-) From reeza at flex.com Thu Jul 12 22:53:09 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:53:09 -1000 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> At 10:43 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: >>One real world example of such. > >Learn to use a search engine. Search on the obvious terms, like >"airlines overflight payments." > >The first such hit you will find in Google, one of hundreds, is: > >"FAA ESTIMATES CUBA OWES US$1 MILLION FOR OVERFLIGHT FEES- >Information obtained from an inquiry to the Federal Aviation >Administration (FAA) within the United States Department of >Transportation by the U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council shows that >Republic of Cuba government-operated Cubana Airlines and Republic of >Cuba government-operated AeroCaribbean Airlines were invoiced >approximately US$1 million by the FAA for the period May 1997 to 31 >January 1998 for overflight fees." > > >Is this enough for the "one real world example"? Is that datum from cubatrade.org or cubaonline.org? How about from a real website? >Or, like many quibblers, do you claim that "one example" is not enough? I specified one. Since you seem to cite the FAA interalia though, I shall require the one example be from the FAA and not from some pro-Cuba organization. Reese From reeza at flex.com Thu Jul 12 22:55:34 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:55:34 -1000 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <200107121501.LAA27562@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195349.00dbec70@flex.com> This makes it likely for Ashcrap's justice department to drop the case, which means a clear 2nd Amendment issue will not go to the SCoTUS, which means as soon as this case is out of the pipeline, they can "change" their policy just like they just did. Especially if the Dem's take over the House next year. We seem to be living in interesting times. At 05:01 AM 7/12/01, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >General Ashcroft has announce the Second Amendment >applies to individuals. > >This will apparently affect the case of a Tim Emerson, >a Texas physician accused of violating a 1994 law >barring people under restraining orders from having >guns. The DOJ is currently appealing the case claiming >the Second Amendment does not extend to an individual >the right to guns. > >http://www.bradycampaign.org has filed an ethics >complaint against Ashcroft. > > WWW illiterate: http://usdoj.gov doesn't work. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Thu Jul 12 19:55:36 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:55:36 -0700 Subject: General Ashcroft makes his move Message-ID: Those 3 things you mentioned violate the First on at least two counts, free speech and press, and also the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part --- the obscenity and kid porn stuff is pure Judeo-Christian bigotry. Whose to say other religions wouldn't teach the opposite? Like the worship of Ishtar (Easter) for instance, whose scriptures have Her saying "My father taught me the kissing of the phallus". Or read "Coming of Age in Somoa" by Margret Mead. George at Orwellian.Org wrote: Jimminy Critic wrote: # # Where is that boundary condition in the amendment? Saying "felons # may not own firearms" is certainly an infringment. Rights don't # come from the state after all (see 1st two para's of the DoI). # # Amendment II # # A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of # a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, # shall not be infringed. Gee, how pure and simple. What is your position on the First Amendment and: o "obscenity" o child pornography o generated non-child child pornography From reeza at flex.com Thu Jul 12 22:56:23 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:56:23 -1000 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> At 06:44 AM 7/12/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:19:51PM -1000, Reese wrote: >> >> I nub you too. Do the letters "F O" mean anything to you? > >Now this is certainly a new high point in cypherpunklian discourse. Aw, would you prefer I told him to Fuck Off, the way I always used to? From reeza at flex.com Thu Jul 12 23:17:39 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:17:39 -1000 Subject: overflight payments Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712201537.00dbf340@flex.com> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970616/special.flight_or_fri.html I acknowledge the point, as I am willing to place more value in Time than cubatrade.org or cubaonline.org - though I think you should have included a url while you were copying and pasting, or just the url itself. Reese From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 12 18:20:28 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:20:28 -0500 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops. :) From com0710 at excite.com Thu Jul 12 22:19:07 2001 From: com0710 at excite.com (B2B) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:19:07 Subject: B2B PORTAL Message-ID: Mind your business connections ! Is your company looking for new customers , sub contractors ,distributors , new suppliers ? BOOST purchasing and order tracking with www.americabestof.com the B2B PORTAL of the manufacturers the services and the distributors. Take a tour for a flourishing business on www.americabestof.com Thank you The team of americabestof Telephone 866mybusiness (8666928746) toll free US only Telephone other countries 0015165996662 Address PO BOX 3672 WANTAGH NY 11793 To be removed from our mailing list hit reply and type "remove" in the subject box From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 20:26:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:26:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Ashcroft makes his move In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another observation about our 'implimentation' of the Constitution... Since we live in a democracy based on 'consent' (1st 2 para's DoI) and the concept of 'life, liberty, pursuit of happiness' coupled with 'shall not interfere with others expression' as axiomatic concepts of American democracy it isn't too hard to understand that we don't live there. What we have is a system that is focused on ways around the Constitution based on 'good of society' concepts. The base problem with them is the a priori assumption that the Constitution doesn't work and needs to be worked around in the first place. People don't believe that a 'free market' social system like American Democracy doesn't work. This is not a new character however, as Jefferson said; I am not one of those who fear the people. Anyone who talks of 'idiots', 'sheep', 'naive', 'just don't understand', 'minimal economic impact', etc. are typical examples of those who fundamentaly don't believe in a 'free market' concept (and not paradoxically who'll sell your rights for profit - to reword Jefferson a tad). American democracy predicates axiomatically that, yes there are some really stupid people out there but whatever their performance level it's going to be better than you making decisions for them. What we have today is a rampant rush to 'security' not through free market social mechanisms but through a 'control economy' sort of society. You'd have thought all these (supposedly) bright people could look at the CCCP, China, Cuba, etc. examples and put 2 and 2 together. Alas, Jefferson was right, there are no angels...just a bunch of predatory assholes. (and people wonder why othe people who feel abused riot in the streets, I wonder how their attitude would change when the mop handle was up their butthole?) ....'the people' doesn't apply to the 'individual' indeed. What does that second para of the DoI say about a citizens duty? And on the topic of 'limiting felons rights', where in the Constitution does it give the federal government any regulatory action over rights? It gives them a bunch of jobs and directs them to comply with the laws and treaties made UNDER the Constitution (which has this nifty 9'th Amendment). Where in the Constitution is the word 'felon' (or a synonym thereof) even used? (if you can't find it, find the 10'th and ponder that baby for a moment) On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, A. Melon wrote: > Those 3 things you mentioned violate the First on at least two counts, > free speech and press, > and also the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of > religion, or > prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part --- the obscenity and kid porn > stuff is pure Judeo-Christian > bigotry. Whose to say other religions wouldn't teach the opposite? Like the > worship of Ishtar (Easter) > for instance, whose scriptures have Her saying "My father taught me the kissing > of the phallus". Or > read "Coming of Age in Somoa" by Margret Mead. > > > George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > Jimminy Critic wrote: > # > # Where is that boundary condition in the amendment? Saying "felons > # may not own firearms" is certainly an infringment. Rights don't > # come from the state after all (see 1st two para's of the DoI). > # > # Amendment II > # > # A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of > # a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, > # shall not be infringed. > > Gee, how pure and simple. > > What is your position on the First Amendment and: > > o "obscenity" > > o child pornography > > o generated non-child child pornography > -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 12 22:33:02 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Pulp Theorem (Re: Digital Cash) In-Reply-To: <20010712195030.B6465@economists.cryptohill.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Adam Back wrote: >Also trust levels needed to trust in something as a value store are much >higher than purely as a immediately cleared payment mechanism. With the >reputation system you could even have insurance. Uh, to clarify, at least in the current version of the design, the reputation system *is* insurance. Basically in a pseudonymous situation, the only kind of reputation system that could possibly matter is where the person providing the reputation certificates does so by offering to bet real money on someone's good behavior at easy odds. Otherwise you can just spoof the system with tentacle reputation agents that all recommend you (and each other). So, when alice-the-buyer wants some assurances that bob-the-seller won't rip her off, she goes to Carol-the-reputation-agent and says "What are the odds on Bob reneging in a five-hundred-buck deal?" And Carol's response is something like "I'll bet Bob does you a straight deal, five-hundred-to-one." Alice considers the rate and decides she wants insurance, pays Carol a buck for a "marker" to use in the contract, does a five-hundred-buck deal with bob (man, that's a lot of venison) and if Bob reneges, Alice gets to cash in Carol's five-hundred-buck marker - thus getting her money back. Carol instantly warns every other reputation agent in the system about Bob and how he reneged for five hundred bucks -- so that Nym is effectively trashed. If Bob doesn't renege, Carol makes a buck. Anyway; whether you call Carol a bookie or an insurance dealer is entirely negotiable. But in this scheme your "reputation" means neither more nor less than the cheapest insurance rates someone can get if they try to insure themselves against you reneging. Bear From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 20:39:54 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:39:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fundamental Theorems of Cliology (A Candidate List) In-Reply-To: <85256A87.004DE1A7.00@vgi4mail.vanguard.com> Message-ID: These are candidates only, they are intended to foster focused discussion. Fundamental Theorem of Cliology - Who get's to make the choices? - What are the permissible choices? - The first two are auto-catalytic Definition of Society - The cornerstones of any society are - toleration - self-defence - A set of rules, codified or not, and expectations, expressed or not, which regulate both the individual and inter-personal activities of same - Societies may be radically different in content and yet share the same geography - The statics and dynamics of a society are governed by the physics of reality and the psychology of the individual (and it's absolute range) - The expectations of societies can be in direct opposition - Violence does not ensue from opposition but from lack of toleration of opposition - This applies to all levels of societies and seems to be psychology independent (in other words, all life seems to follow it) - As a result, stability can be looked upon as a measure of tolerance Definition of 'crime' - Any act which harms a person, their property, or breaks a public trust without consent - What is a 'public trust'? - A contract entered voluntarily (at the point one questions the compliance but complies they have consented - no expectation of continued consent is implied) to provide service to the community or use a public resource - What is a 'public resource'? - A resource which is common to all and is required for basic individual survival or social operations Fundamental Axiom of Law - The codification of social rules, commonly called 'rule of law', is an extension of the right to self-defence - A defining characteristic of any society is to whom the 'right' falls to (ie some mix of individual or group) - A fundamental defining character is whether the rights of society extend from the individual, or rather the rights of the individual stem from the population Definition of Civil Liberty - The ability to make 'a choice' with respect to individual or classes of decisions - This is the primary defining character of any human society or relationship -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 12 20:40:26 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:40:26 -0500 Subject: Most of a nation on probation? (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010712195041.00975400@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: *laughter* You're a 'baby lawyer' for about 10-15 years. It's a permanent "state of being" if you are the offspring of a lawyer. :) ~Aimee David wrote: > > My kid is 21 months old. Would you still take him on as a baby privacy > client? He's getting concerned about the number of baby pictures I've > put up on the web, and was talking about getting a lawyer. He'd probably > have to pursue a judgement, not just a restraining order, against me > in order to pay you. Are you licenced in Calif? > > :-) From ravage at ssz.com Thu Jul 12 20:42:02 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:42:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Ashcroft makes his move (typo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry... On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > What we have is a system that is focused on ways around the Constitution > based on 'good of society' concepts. The base problem with them is the a > priori assumption that the Constitution doesn't work and needs to be > worked around in the first place. People don't believe that a 'free > market' social system like American Democracy doesn't work. ^^^ xxx -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Jul 12 22:51:21 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughtcrime in Australia Message-ID: <200107130551.f6D5pLu22611@artifact.psychedelic.net> No sooner has that guy in Ohio gone to the slammer for 10 years for his naughty diary, than some judge in Australia has fined a person $10k for downloading naughty text stories on the Internet. Will www.nifty.org and www.assgm.com survive? And in a very odd and cleverly worded op-ed piece... http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/34569.htm The New York Post has suggested that locking up Mr. Dalton was wrong because he didn't show his story to anyone, while observing in passing that such a sentence would have been just fine if Mr. Dalton had "posted his story on the Net", or "shown it to a friend." Goodness, we can't have that, can we? Kind of makes one side with those who believe that the solution to god-soaked religious cretins is an emergency lion-breeding program. ----- http://www.thewest.com.au/20010712/news/perth/tw-news-perth-home-sto15793.html July 12, 2001 Child porn fiction gets fine of $10,000 By Bronwyn Peace A MAN has been fined $10,000 for possessing stories about child pornography even though the judge said they were not as serious as pornographic pictures because they were fictional and there were no victims. ... Last month, prosecutor Gail Archer told the court that Keogh should be jailed for the pornographic stories, which were found on his home computer by his stepdaughter's boyfriend. She said the stories, which detailed gang rape, bestiality and incest, had titles such as Bonnie Goes Camping, The Little Homewrecker and Prince and His Princess. "All of the stories are quite detailed, quite graphic and incredibly unpleasant," she said. Ms Archer said Keogh admitted to police he owned the stories but said he did not know they were illegal and that they helped him cope with his past abuse. She said any downloading of child pornography encouraged the exploitation of children. ... The judge said Keogh, who until now had led a blameless life, deserved a significant fine. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From vwsteel at hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 13:58:31 2001 From: vwsteel at hotmail.com (Ryan Van Wyk) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:58:31 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Listen I want 2 know how 2 hack my mobile phone, that I can talk 4 free. I know alot about wires and everything, but need 2 know how 2 talk 4 free on a normal Telephone. Please come back 2 me as soon as possible. Email me by vwsteel at hotmail.com Thanx....... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From bounce at accipiter-marketing.com Thu Jul 12 23:20:06 2001 From: bounce at accipiter-marketing.com (IDT) Date: Thu Jul 12 23:20:06 2001 Subject: Long distance calls for just 5 cents a minute, 24/7! Message-ID: <2001723206.638724994994422@7> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2498 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at rearviewmirror.org Thu Jul 12 23:45:30 2001 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:45:30 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> Message-ID: <01071223453002.20067@minerva.rearviewmirror.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Jul 12 21:32:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:32:57 -0400 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: ; from freematt@coil.com on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:01:03PM -0400 References: <200107121501.LAA27562@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010713003257.B29328@cluebot.com> Matt, Thanks for posting this. I'm not sure why this should be a surprise. Groups that care about currying favor with Congress and the administration have a strong incentive to distort the truth to constitutents in hopes of persuading them that awful compromises are not. To use examples from the Net, the Center for Democracy and Technology circa 1995-1996 backed a bill that would criminalize "harmful to minors" material online. In part this was due to a desire to remain influential on Capitol Hill rather than taking a more extreme position. (http://www.epic.org/cda/hyde_letter.html) EFF cut a (bad) deal on CALEA and backed a flawed bill around the same time (http://cyberwerks.com/cyberwire/cwd/cwd.94.09.14.html). This is not to say those groups would do the same thing now, of course. The other approach is to hew to principle, with the understanding that you'll be less effective as a lobbyist. Deal-cutting is the currency of Washington politics, and if you don't do it you don't have much to spend. The ACLU's lobbyists take this approach. (So do groups like CEI, EPIC, and Cato, though they don't really lobby. I've seen Gun Owners of America take the same no-compromise stand.) The NRA doesn't see things the same way, and their approach does make them more influential. There may be other factors as well, but it should be no surprise that Fortune magazine's poll of Hill staffers reports that staffers from both major parties rank the NRA among the top five or so most influential groups. The no compromise groups don't make the list. Also, this issue may be part of a pretty complicated political analysis. For instance, the NRA may want the help of the Bush administration (a veto over a bad campaign finance bill) in one area so will laud them here even when the praise is undeserved. NRA lobbyists may be betting that a paean to Ashcroft now will let them bank political capital that can be spent against a gun bill later. Strategically, if the NRA takes the extreme step of later denouncing Ashcroft, this current pro-Ashcroft campaign will make the media take their later statements more seriously. Then again, it could be an honest mistake on the part of the NRA in leaving out that key footnote. Has anyone asked them? -Declan www.mccullagh.org On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:01:03PM -0400, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Richard Stevens is author of the recent > book "Dial 911 and Die" published by the Jews for the Preservation of > Firearms Ownership. http://www.jpfo.org ] > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) > From: Richard Stevens > Subject: Matt -- we must protest when "our side" errs > To: Matthew Gaylor > > Dear Colleagues, > > The July 2001 Issue of NRA's America's First Freedom > magazine featured a cover picture of John Ashcroft and > highlighted the story of Ashcroft's letter indicating > that "the Constitution protects the private ownership > of firearms for lawful purposes." The magazine (at > pp. 35-37) exults in the reversal of Justice > Department policy on the Second Amendment. > > That's great. On page 37, the NRA reprints Ashcroft's > letter -- as though it were *in full* -- but omits the > footnote that exists in Ashcroft's actual letter. > > As you know, Ashcroft also said in that footnote in > his letter that the Constitution "does not prohibit > Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms > ownership for compelling state interests, such as > prohibiting firearms ownership by convicted felons." > > The NRA omitted a key element of Ashcroft's position > -- and then published the letter as though it were > complete. > > That omission is a terrible distortion -- and > seriously damages NRA's credibility with those of us > who know the whole truth. What else might the NRA > choose to omit, where the omission serves a PR > purpose? Are their reports from the UN correct? > Their reports about lobbying efforts and the positions > taken by NRA-backed candidates? > > I wonder who at the NRA thought it was a good idea to > distort the facts, and conceal the somewhat negative > truth, just to advance the appearance of NRA success? > That's the conduct we came to expect from HCI & Co. > ... now it has infected the NRA. > > Members like me should demand the NRA publish an > accounting of this mistake, fire the person who made > the mistake, apologize and repent from such conduct. > > --Richard Stevens > (my personal views only) > > ************************************************************************** > Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues > Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA > on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) > Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ > ************************************************************************** From petro at lists.bounty.org Fri Jul 13 01:08:14 2001 From: petro at lists.bounty.org (petro at lists.bounty.org) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:08:14 -0700 Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010713010811.A7822@lists.bounty.org> On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:56:02PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Los Angeles officials seeking to impose property > taxes on space satellites were brought back down to Earth on Tuesday when > a state board moved toward declaring satellites beyond the reach of even > the tax collector. <...> > ``It's ludicrous, absolutely,'' Jamison said. ``It's the type of issue, > quite frankly, that causes the company to consider relocating its base of > operations to a more business-friendly environment.'' It would serve L.A., and the Peoples Republic right if Hughes moved. -- "Ponzi scheme: see FICA"--Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Jul 13 01:44:22 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:44:22 -0700 Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) References: <20010713010811.A7822@lists.bounty.org> Message-ID: <000c01c10b78$03d89070$d2972040@thinkpad574> Not at all a surprise. I loved Grove's comment when asked when Intel would put another Fab in Cali. "Right after it raises itself above the state of a Third World Nation." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 1:08 AM Subject: Re: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) > On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:56:02PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Los Angeles officials seeking to impose property > > taxes on space satellites were brought back down to Earth on Tuesday when > > a state board moved toward declaring satellites beyond the reach of even > > the tax collector. > > <...> > > > ``It's ludicrous, absolutely,'' Jamison said. ``It's the type of issue, > > quite frankly, that causes the company to consider relocating its base of > > operations to a more business-friendly environment.'' > > It would serve L.A., and the Peoples Republic right if Hughes > moved. 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In-Reply-To: <20010713104033.B31955@cluebot.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713051516.00dd0430@flex.com> At 04:40 AM 7/13/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >It doesn't bother me either way, so I have no real preference. (If such >juvenalia did bother me, I would have resigned from cpunx 6 years ago.) > >But you should know that it does make everyone feel a strong urge >to killfile you. Consider this a fair warning. Everyone? They've all told you? Whatever. I think anyone who objects to profanity spoken out loud in their home is within their rights to take action, but anyone who would censor the rest of America as well (on a list absent a declared religious overtone or theme especially) is possessed of a certain personal problem that goes beyond a simple decision to refrain from use of profanity. I'm not worried about being killfiled, it doesn't stop me from reading what others have to say and I am free to agree or disagree with what those others have to say. Free speech, even for the dumb (and censorious). Reese From mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net Thu Jul 12 21:11:53 2001 From: mixmaster at remailer.segfault.net (Anonymous Coredump) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 06:11:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) Message-ID: <2064f3f0f38e4b5b368004827f53f11f@remailer.segfault.net> On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Alfred Qeada wrote: > Please list the companies. > > What state are you in? In some states the evil weed is more evil than > others. Thank you. We will now begin contacting these companys and asking whom they have turned down for due to drug related convictions. We hope to have you under surveilance within a week. This is PROTECTIVE surviellance, mind you. We just don't want you to make any mistakes that you may regret later. Big Bro From ravage at ssz.com Fri Jul 13 05:24:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:24:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <81a1e8c9bf48d92ae836ef306468bfe4@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Exactly: those weren't the groups that made the real impact when it > actually came to getting down to business and changing policy. Blame > MKULTRA or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that they fell apart > (and had their members killed or put in jail) whereas groups who didn't > espouse violence continue to this day. ???? Black Panthers exist today... But they did provide a 'extreme viewpoint' and made it easier for the powers that be and more moderate groups to meet and make progress. A sort of implied 'or else'. > Without Ghandi, British policy would have taken a far different turn. In your opinion...opining on alternate futures is rife with problems you seem to blithefully to ignore (at your own peril). Claiming omniciance isn't a convincing argument. > Violence hasn't exactly been a stunning success for the IRA, has it. Actually I'd say it has, as a result of this civil war the chance of Ireland getting their independence sooner rather than later (how long do you figure the Brit's would have sat around if there had been no responce - till hell freezes over I'd suspect). Give a single example where absolute non-violence has worked...(there aren't any) It isn't in the human psyche to say "Well, we've oppressed them long enough, let them go free. We'll make our profits and express our civil authority some other way". -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Jul 13 05:28:40 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:28:40 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Last Month for Free MAPS Message-ID: <3B4EE978.83EE6059@ssz.com> More God $ Fascism... http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/13/0513251.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Fri Jul 13 07:47:38 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:47:38 -0700 Subject: save the children! Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010713074733.022784a0@mail.well.com> FOREIGN AFFAIRS Save the Children News conference to call upon the United States to accept limits on the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons. Participants: Christine Knudson, Save the Children; Jo Marie Griesgraber, Oxfam America; Lincoln Ndodoni, World Vision and Adotei Akwei, Amnensty international Location: National Press Club, Zenger Room, 14th and F St., NW. 9:30 a.m. Contact: 203-221-4187 **NEW** From georgemw at speakeasy.net Fri Jul 13 08:12:32 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:12:32 -0700 Subject: General Ashcroft makes his move In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B4EAD70.570.1E050AF6@localhost> On 12 Jul 2001, at 19:55, A. Melon wrote: > > Those 3 things you mentioned violate the First on at least two counts, > free speech and press, > and also the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of > religion, or > prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part --- the obscenity and kid porn > stuff is pure Judeo-Christian > bigotry. I don't think so. AFAIK the bible doesn't condemn pedophilia anywhere, and in any case basing laws on moral values that come from your religion is not at all the same as repecting the esatblishment of a religeon. > Whose to say other religions wouldn't teach the opposite? Like the > worship of Ishtar (Easter) > for instance, whose scriptures have Her saying "My father taught me the kissing > of the phallus". Or > read "Coming of Age in Somoa" by Margret Mead. > I don't know much about Ashtaroth, but but I do no that COAIS has been refuted as a total hoax. George From measl at mfn.org Fri Jul 13 06:15:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:15:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Last Month for Free MAPS In-Reply-To: <3B4EE978.83EE6059@ssz.com> Message-ID: Good. First Dorkslayers and now Vixie The Internet Nazi. Let em fucking DIE. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org Proudly ignoring the RBL and it's bastard bretheren for years and years... On Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:28:40 -0500 > From: Jim Choate > Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com > To: hell at einstein.ssz.com, cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Slashdot | Last Month for Free MAPS > > More God $ Fascism... > > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/13/0513251.shtml > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Jul 13 06:41:54 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:41:54 -0500 Subject: Meatspace, References: <81a1e8c9bf48d92ae836ef306468bfe4@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <3B4EFA9C.EE43190E@ameritech.net> Faustine wrote: > > >Um, you should review the 60's groups like the SDS and such. > > Exactly: those weren't the groups that made the real impact when it > actually came to getting down to business and changing policy. Blame > MKULTRA or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that they fell apart > (and had their members killed or put in jail) whereas groups who didn't > espouse violence continue to this day. > What? You are really a bit ignorant -- there are plenty of SDS and Black Panthers running around today, the vast majority never went to jail. > > And while > >Ghandi certainly didn't believe in violence the same can't be said for the > >rest of the Indian freedom movement (not all hailed to Ghandi). > > Without Ghandi, British policy would have taken a far different turn. Ghandi was also pissed because the Brits had confiscated all the privately owned firearms, and spoke out against this -- and from the sounds of it, would have advocated using those arm to fight the Brits. > > Violence hasn't exactly been a stunning success for the IRA, has it. Who do you think it was that kicked the Brits out of the most of Ireland, with a *lot* of violence? If it weren't for Irish picking up the gun, the whole country would still be a Brit colony. And they will succeed in driving the Brits out of the rest, and hopefully their progeny, the "Protestants" along with them. > > Not Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Susan B. Anthony, Bobby Kennedy and and the > vast majority of the people who espoused the causes you mentioned above. > The ones who made the real difference--the ones who immediately come to > mind every time we think of their cause--didn't espouse violence. If you > want to talk about Che and Mao and Chairman Gonzalo, that's another story. > God, what bullshit. MLK preached civil disobedience, not just "nonviolence" -- if he were doing this in today's repressive political climate, he would be getting exactly the same treatment as the WTO protesters. What stopped the war was explicity the growing violence (SDS's Bring the War Home campaign) and the fact that returning combat vets were joining the protests in throngs, and new draftees were fragging and shooting their officers and NCOs in Nam. What does Bobby Kennedy have to do with it? He and his brother were just another couple of politrixians who got what they deserved. > >The reality is, your example of the 'troops in the street willing to gun > >'em down' (a paraphrase) is apt. The only thing stopping them is knowing > >that the majority of people don't believe it. They still believe in the > The thing stopping them is knowing that they are vastly outnumbered, and if they escalate into using deadly force against the protesters, there are more than enough people who would come back with guns the next day and wipe them out. If Kent State had happened, for instance, at Berkley or Madison, there is no question of what would have happened next, and probably that very same day. Geez, just look at the what those Pakistani kids are doing to the cops in England. And they have no access to guns. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net From declan at well.com Fri Jul 13 08:48:46 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:48:46 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713051516.00dd0430@flex.com> References: <20010713104033.B31955@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010713084656.00a9e4a0@mail.well.com> Yes. Clearly killfiling is a concept coterminous with censorship. I urge Reese to expand this campaign to people who change the channel too. -Declan At 05:37 AM 7/13/01 -1000, Reese wrote: >At 04:40 AM 7/13/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >It doesn't bother me either way, so I have no real preference. (If such > >juvenalia did bother me, I would have resigned from cpunx 6 years ago.) > > > >But you should know that it does make everyone feel a strong urge > >to killfile you. Consider this a fair warning. > >Everyone? They've all told you? Whatever. > >I think anyone who objects to profanity spoken out loud in their home >is within their rights to take action, but anyone who would censor the >rest of America as well (on a list absent a declared religious overtone >or theme especially) is possessed of a certain personal problem that >goes beyond a simple decision to refrain from use of profanity. > >I'm not worried about being killfiled, it doesn't stop me from reading >what others have to say and I am free to agree or disagree with what >those others have to say. Free speech, even for the dumb (and censorious). > >Reese > > > From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 13 08:52:20 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:52:20 -0700 Subject: overflight payments In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712201537.00dbf340@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712201537.00dbf340@flex.com> Message-ID: At 8:17 PM -1000 7/12/01, Reese wrote: >http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970616/special.flight_or_fri.html > >I acknowledge the point, as I am willing to place more value in Time than >cubatrade.org or cubaonline.org - though I think you should have included >a url while you were copying and pasting, or just the url itself. > >Reese You're an insolent twit. I didn't give URLs because the simplest of searches in Google turned up hundreds of hits describing overflight fees. My point was not to prove that overflight fees exist--directly contradicting your denial that they exist--but to show a _lot_ of references. I picked two at random. And now you complain that I randomly picked one mentioning Cuba....but didn't give a URL. (Hint: add the word "Cuba" to the search if you are actually interested in retrieving the full article. But you are not, obviously. You just had to make a twittish quibble.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 13 09:31:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:31:34 -0700 Subject: Taxifornia becomes interplanetary menace (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010713010811.A7822@lists.bounty.org> References: <20010713010811.A7822@lists.bounty.org> Message-ID: At 1:08 AM -0700 7/13/01, petro at lists.bounty.org wrote: >On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:56:02PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Los Angeles officials seeking to impose property >> taxes on space satellites were brought back down to Earth on Tuesday when >> a state board moved toward declaring satellites beyond the reach of even >> the tax collector. > ><...> > >> ``It's ludicrous, absolutely,'' Jamison said. ``It's the type of issue, >> quite frankly, that causes the company to consider relocating its base of >> operations to a more business-friendly environment.'' > > It would serve L.A., and the Peoples Republic right if Hughes > moved. The tax thieves often ignore "moving." Americans who leave the U.S. and take their assets with them are liable for U.S. taxes for a decade or so after leaving (over the $70K or so waiver at the low end). California taxpayer-units who move to Nevada or Florida find California attempting to tax their pensions. I know of a guy who founded a software company, sold out, and moved to Switzerland. California is still trying to tax him. If Hughes decamps from L.A., which is possible, for multiple reasons, expect the tax grabbers to keep after them. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 13 09:34:12 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:34:12 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> Message-ID: At 7:53 PM -1000 7/12/01, Reese wrote: >At 10:43 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: > >>>One real world example of such. >> >>Learn to use a search engine. Search on the obvious terms, like >>"airlines overflight payments." >> >>The first such hit you will find in Google, one of hundreds, is: >>Or, like many quibblers, do you claim that "one example" is not enough? > >I specified one. Since you seem to cite the FAA interalia though, I shall >require the one example be from the FAA and not from some pro-Cuba >organization. "I shall require..." Well, then, require away! Twit. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From declan at well.com Fri Jul 13 07:40:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:40:33 -0400 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 07:56:23PM -1000 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> Message-ID: <20010713104033.B31955@cluebot.com> It doesn't bother me either way, so I have no real preference. (If such juvenalia did bother me, I would have resigned from cpunx 6 years ago.) But you should know that it does make everyone feel a strong urge to killfile you. Consider this a fair warning. -Declan On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 07:56:23PM -1000, Reese wrote: > At 06:44 AM 7/12/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:19:51PM -1000, Reese wrote: > >> > >> I nub you too. Do the letters "F O" mean anything to you? > > > >Now this is certainly a new high point in cypherpunklian discourse. > > Aw, would you prefer I told him to Fuck Off, the way I always used to? From jya at pipeline.com Fri Jul 13 10:58:42 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:58:42 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <20010713104033.B31955@cluebot.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> Message-ID: <200107131458.KAA30057@blount.mail.mindspring.net> The infallible archives show that the top users here of "fuck off" are ... well, not to provoke additional applications of the highly acceptable use term, check the archives yourself. Reese is no where near the top user, except at sea. This is not to suggest that heavy users of the term have not be killfiled, repeatedly, to no effect, as befits this foul-mouthed wonderland where killfiles are a joke of venerable shallowness. This is not to say that shallowness is not perfectly acceptable usage here. Otherwise there'd be nothing. Sure, that's what may be the best acceptable use but for christsakes this is the cornucopic of plenitude, negritude and FO attitude. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 13 08:21:40 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: China: the Olympic Ideal Message-ID: <200107131521.LAA17286@www4.aa.psiweb.com> China just got the next full Olympics. One of our (USA) congressman objected because the Olympic creed involves (I forget exactly) freedom/human dignity. The BUllSHit administration had no comment because "we don't get a vote anyway". Yeah, and Daddy Bush invaded Kuwait to protect democracy. From keytouch at 21cn.com Thu Jul 12 20:23:59 2001 From: keytouch at 21cn.com (keytouch) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:23:59 +0800 Subject: p-cad s/n no Message-ID: <000201c10b6f$27df3720$0600a8c0@tafu> 銝甈∠ pcad 2000 windows soft wave 瘝 s/n 銝賜 隢蝯行!!! 舀迤蝣箇摰鋆甇仿 雓雓 e-mail : keytouch at 21cn.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 600 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atek3 at gmx.net Fri Jul 13 11:45:08 2001 From: atek3 at gmx.net (Brent) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:45:08 -0700 Subject: violent antitax protest/riot in US References: <3.0.6.32.20010714111727.008fda10@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <001e01c10bcb$f2d88fb0$05fcb018@c1656070A> hurray, at least some americans don't lay down and wait for the government to sock it to them, as in Kalifornia atek3 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Honig" To: Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: violent antitax protest/riot in US > Friday July 13 6:33 AM ET > > Anti-Tax Protests at Tenn. Capitol > > By KARIN MILLER, Associated Press Writer > > NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Protesters hurled rocks through Capitol > windows, chanted ``no new tax!'' and banged on the locked doors of > the Senate chamber where Tennessee lawmakers were debating the > creation of a state income tax. > > The tax plan had died before the protesters arrived Thursday, but when > word spread that lawmakers had passed a no-tax budget, cheers went > up among the hundreds of protesters. > > ``The people are passionate when they say, 'no income tax','' said > Steve Gill, a Nashville radio talk show host who had called on tax > opponents to swarm the Capitol. > > Anti-tax protests have been frequent the past three years as lawmakers > considered implementing a state income tax, but the protests had > always been peaceful - until Thursday. > > Within hours of hearing that the Legislature was considering a > last-minute income tax plan, protesters swarmed into the area, honking > car horns, waving signs reading ``Tax Revolt!'' and bringing traffic > outside the Capitol to a standstill. > > The rock-throwers busted several windows, including one in the > governor's office. State troopers escorted lawmakers in the halls and > locked the doors to the Capitol. One state employee trying to lock a > side door was injured as the weight of the crowd pushed against him. > > No arrests were made and no other injuries were reported. > > ``I appreciate the right of all Americans to free speech and peaceful > protest. I do not, however, approve of those who advocate violence > and I regret that occurred at the Capitol,'' Gov. Don Sundquist said in > a statement. > > Sundquist has said he would veto any budget that didn't include a new > revenue plan. > > The budget the Legislature passed doesn't include the 3.5 percent > income tax lawmakers had discussed. It instead cuts $339 million from > the governor's $19.9 billion spending plan, requires state agencies to > save an additional $100 million, and uses $560 million in tobacco > settlement money - four years worth - to balance the budget. > > Sundquist wouldn't say if he would sign it. > > Tennessee is one of nine states without a broad-based income tax, but > it has one of the highest sales tax rates at 6 percent, with local > governments adding up to 2.75 percent. > > Sen. Bob Rochelle, a Democratic proponent of a state income tax, had > argued that the sales tax could be reduced if an income tax was > implemented. ``The day will come when we won't mistreat our citizens > any more with that tax,'' he said. > > Republican Sen. David Fowler, an opponent of the income tax, said > negotiations had already broken down by the time most of the > protesters arrived. > > One proposal discussed would have put plans for an income tax to a > statewide vote. Fowler said the protest may have ``effectively killed'' > that as an option. > > ``I don't know if they knew that's what they were doing, but that's what > they were doing,'' Fowler said. > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010713/us/tennessee_capitol_protest_8.html From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 13 08:48:08 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Chandra Levy Special Message-ID: <200107131548.LAA26020@www9.aa.psiweb.com> John Walsh is doing a one hour special tomorrow. His theory is that it's a serial killer. Apparently *two* other Washington interns have turned up dead. From crossetj at net-ronin.org Fri Jul 13 11:48:17 2001 From: crossetj at net-ronin.org (Trevor) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:48:17 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 07:53:09PM -1000 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> Message-ID: <20010713114817.A8157@net-ronin.org> On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 07:53:09PM -1000, Reese wrote: > At 10:43 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: > > >>One real world example of such. > > > >Learn to use a search engine. Search on the obvious terms, like > >"airlines overflight payments." > > > >Is this enough for the "one real world example"? > > Is that datum from cubatrade.org or cubaonline.org? > How about from a real website? > > >Or, like many quibblers, do you claim that "one example" is not enough? > > I specified one. Since you seem to cite the FAA interalia though, I shall > require the one example be from the FAA and not from some pro-Cuba > organization. > > Reese Perhaps like Tim suggested you should learn to use a search engine: http://www.google.com/search?num=50&q=overflight+fees Turns up the FAA's old page loads the FAA's NEW page from where you can easily find http://www.faa.gov/aba/html_overflight/index.html. A short quote: "...aircraft operators will be required to pay fees for air traffic control services provided to aircraft that operate in U.S. airspace, but do not take off or land in the United States." Stop being an ass. -- Trevor Crosse crossetj at net-ronin.org From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 13 15:22:02 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:22:02 -1000 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010713084656.00a9e4a0@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713051516.00dd0430@flex.com> <20010713104033.B31955@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <20010712124440.D15770@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195545.00dbe3f0@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713122130.00dec550@flex.com> How quaint. Do let us know when you move beyond strict technical definitions. At 05:48 AM 7/13/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Yes. Clearly killfiling is a concept coterminous with censorship. I urge >Reese to expand this campaign to people who change the channel too. > >-Declan > > >At 05:37 AM 7/13/01 -1000, Reese wrote: >>At 04:40 AM 7/13/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >It doesn't bother me either way, so I have no real preference. (If such >> >juvenalia did bother me, I would have resigned from cpunx 6 years ago.) >> > >> >But you should know that it does make everyone feel a strong urge >> >to killfile you. Consider this a fair warning. >> >>Everyone? They've all told you? Whatever. >> >>I think anyone who objects to profanity spoken out loud in their home >>is within their rights to take action, but anyone who would censor the >>rest of America as well (on a list absent a declared religious overtone >>or theme especially) is possessed of a certain personal problem that >>goes beyond a simple decision to refrain from use of profanity. >> >>I'm not worried about being killfiled, it doesn't stop me from reading >>what others have to say and I am free to agree or disagree with what >>those others have to say. Free speech, even for the dumb (and censorious). >> >>Reese > > From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 13 15:24:34 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:24:34 -1000 Subject: overflight payments In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712201537.00dbf340@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712201537.00dbf340@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713122229.00de7e60@flex.com> At 05:52 AM 7/13/01, Tim May wrote: >At 8:17 PM -1000 7/12/01, Reese wrote: >>http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970616/special.flight_or_fri.html >> >>I acknowledge the point, as I am willing to place more value in Time than >>cubatrade.org or cubaonline.org - though I think you should have included >>a url while you were copying and pasting, or just the url itself. >> >>Reese > >You're an insolent twit. Tim, you ignorant slut, >I didn't give URLs because the simplest of >searches in Google turned up hundreds of hits describing overflight >fees. Does your pussy hurt too? >My point was not to prove that overflight fees exist--directly >contradicting your denial that they exist--but to show a _lot_ of >references. I picked two at random. the url from a google search would have accomplished this. >And now you complain that I randomly picked one mentioning >Cuba....but didn't give a URL. (Hint: add the word "Cuba" to the >search if you are actually interested in retrieving the full article. I did, even without "cuba" the top returns are from cubatrade.org and cubaonline.org. >But you are not, obviously. You just had to make a twittish quibble.) tweet fucking tweet. From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 13 15:25:42 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:25:42 -1000 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <20010713114817.A8157@net-ronin.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713122514.00ddf3d0@flex.com> At 08:48 AM 7/13/01, Trevor wrote: >> Reese >Perhaps like Tim suggested you should learn to use a search engine: >http://www.google.com/search?num=50&q=overflight+fees > >Turns up the FAA's old page loads the FAA's NEW page from where you can >easily find http://www.faa.gov/aba/html_overflight/index.html. A short >quote: >"...aircraft operators will be required to pay fees for air traffic >control services provided to aircraft that operate in U.S. airspace, but >do not take off or land in the United States." > >Stop being an ass. Et tu? From info at giganetstore.com Fri Jul 13 05:14:25 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:14:25 +0100 Subject: A giganetstore.com sugere... Message-ID: <02c9b2514120d71WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> A giganetstore.com sugere o melhor bronzeado do Ver瓊o, na Republica Dominicana ... Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1806 bytes Desc: not available URL: From decoy at iki.fi Fri Jul 13 03:55:58 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:55:58 +0300 (EEST) Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <200107122209.SAA23884@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >What is your position on the First Amendment and: [...] > > o child pornography What's wrong with kiddyporn? It's just bits. They don't hurt you. The problem is child abuse, *if* that happened when the porn produced. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From amaha at vsnl.net Fri Jul 13 12:04:11 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:04:11 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107131904.f6DJ4Bp00990@ak47.algebra.com> California is a fine place to live--if you happen to be an orange. --Fred Allen ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Joy (A Non-religious Organisation) From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 13 05:25:43 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:25:43 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: MSFT and our nuclear arsenal (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:41:54 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: MSFT and our nuclear arsenal >Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:40:36 -0400 >Subject: MSFT and our nuclear arsenal >From: Kai Lui >To: Dave Farber > >An interesting piece from the Washington Post if you haven't already seen >it. Unfortunately (or fortunately), the specific MSFT software is not >identified. > >Kai Lui >------------------ > >Nukes: A Lesson From Russia >By Bruce G. Blair >Wednesday, July 11, 2001; Page A19 > >Although the United States spends nearly $1 billion every year to help >Russia protect its vast storehouse of nuclear weapons materials from theft >or sale on the black market, few Americans know how this aid helps >strengthen America's own nuclear safeguards. > >Russian experts at the Kurchatov Institute, the renowned nuclear research >center in Moscow, recently found what appears to be a critical deficiency in >the internal U.S. system for keeping track of all bomb-grade nuclear >materials held by the Energy Department -- enough material for tens of >thousands of nuclear bombs. > >Kurchatov scientists discovered a fatal flaw in the Microsoft software >donated to them by the Los Alamos National Laboratory. This same software >has been the backbone of America's nuclear materials control system for >years. The Russians found that over time, as the computer program is used, >some files become invisible and inaccessible to the nuclear accountants >using the system, even though the data still exist in netherworld of the >database. Any insider who understood the software could exploit this flaw by >tracking the "disappeared" files and then physically diverting, for a >profit, the materials themselves. > >Full article at: > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44053-2001Jul10.html For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 13 05:25:43 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:25:43 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: MSFT and our nuclear arsenal (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:41:54 -0400 From: David Farber To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: MSFT and our nuclear arsenal >Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:40:36 -0400 >Subject: MSFT and our nuclear arsenal >From: Kai Lui >To: Dave Farber > >An interesting piece from the Washington Post if you haven't already seen >it. Unfortunately (or fortunately), the specific MSFT software is not >identified. > >Kai Lui >------------------ > >Nukes: A Lesson From Russia >By Bruce G. Blair >Wednesday, July 11, 2001; Page A19 > >Although the United States spends nearly $1 billion every year to help >Russia protect its vast storehouse of nuclear weapons materials from theft >or sale on the black market, few Americans know how this aid helps >strengthen America's own nuclear safeguards. > >Russian experts at the Kurchatov Institute, the renowned nuclear research >center in Moscow, recently found what appears to be a critical deficiency in >the internal U.S. system for keeping track of all bomb-grade nuclear >materials held by the Energy Department -- enough material for tens of >thousands of nuclear bombs. > >Kurchatov scientists discovered a fatal flaw in the Microsoft software >donated to them by the Los Alamos National Laboratory. This same software >has been the backbone of America's nuclear materials control system for >years. The Russians found that over time, as the computer program is used, >some files become invisible and inaccessible to the nuclear accountants >using the system, even though the data still exist in netherworld of the >database. Any insider who understood the software could exploit this flaw by >tracking the "disappeared" files and then physically diverting, for a >profit, the materials themselves. > >Full article at: > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44053-2001Jul10.html For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Jul 13 13:46:53 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:46:53 -0500 Subject: Today's overflight decision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: July 13, 2001 DC Cir. ---- Air Transp. Ass'n Of Canada v. Fed. Aviation Admin. 49 USC 45301 (Federal Aviation Reauthorization Act of 1996) ---- The FAA failed to provide any record justification for the proposition that costs for servicing over- flights are the same as costs for servicing non-overflights. It simply assumed it was so. ... Because the FAA has failed to articulate the basis for its conclusion that "the unit costs of providing [air traffic control] services to overflights within each environment is [sic] identi- cal to the unit costs of providing [air traffic control] services to all air traffic within each environment," we vacate the 2000 Rule and remand to the FAA for further proceedings consistent with this opinion. So ordered. http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/200107/00-1334a.txt ~Aimee From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Jul 13 13:16:37 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 16:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <7e45ac1b22efadeed1ac5b1e27d97411@freemail.cotse.com> Faustine wrote: > > >Um, you should review the 60's groups like the SDS and such. > > Exactly: those weren't the groups that made the real impact when it > actually came to getting down to business and changing policy. Blame > MKULTRA or whatever you want, but the bottom line is that they fell apart > (and had their members killed or put in jail) whereas groups who didn't > espouse violence continue to this day. > > What? You are really a bit ignorant -- there are plenty of SDS and >Black Panthers running around today, the vast majority never went to jail. Of course they didn't. The bottom line is that their organizations were torn apart by operations conducted against them, I'm sure I don't need to give you a lecture about all that. Maybe the Panther party is making a comeback, but you can't deny they're a long way from where they were before the intel community went to work on them. Look what's happening to the radical environmentalists today, they're up for exactly the same kind of treatment. You declare open war on the state, and the state is going to declare open war on YOU as "a threat to public safety." > And while > >Ghandi certainly didn't believe in violence the same can't be said for the > >rest of the Indian freedom movement (not all hailed to Ghandi). > > Without Ghandi, British policy would have taken a far different turn. >Ghandi was also pissed because the Brits had confiscated all the privately >owned firearms, and spoke out against this -- and from the sounds of it, >would have advocated using those arm to fight the Brits. Maybe, maybe not, but it's a side issue when youre talking about what made his tactics a success. > Violence hasn't exactly been a stunning success for the IRA, has it. > Who do you think it was that kicked the Brits out of the most of >Ireland, with a *lot* of violence? If it weren't for Irish picking up the >gun, the whole country would still be a Brit colony. And they will succeed >in driving the Brits out of the rest, and hopefully their progeny, the >"Protestants" along with them. Of course!! Proof that violence only works when it's more than symbolic. I should have been more clear about what I meant: if they really engaged in an all-out prolonged conflict (the way the original Irish Republican Army did)it would have been a totally different issue than a march here, a bomb there etc. The government never just "gives in" out of the goodness of its heart in recognition of superior "spirits" or something vague like that. And at the very least, you have to admit they aren't relying on bloc noirs, vinegar hankies and catapults. > Not Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Susan B. Anthony, Bobby Kennedy and and the > vast majority of the people who espoused the causes you mentioned above. > The ones who made the real difference--the ones who immediately come to > mind every time we think of their cause--didn't espouse violence. If you > want to talk about Che and Mao and Chairman Gonzalo, that's another story. > God, what bullshit. MLK preached civil disobedience, not just >"nonviolence" -- if he were doing this in today's repressive political >climate, he would be getting exactly the same treatment as the WTO >protesters. But he wasn't an anarchist. My point is if you're out to overthrow the state (as opposed to fighting for your rights within the system like the causes above) you better have more than turtle suits and golf balls. >What stopped the war was explicity the growing violence (SDS's Bring the >War Home campaign) and the fact that returning combat vets were joining the >protests in throngs, and new draftees were fragging and shooting their >officers and NCOs in Nam. I still think it's too complex to boil it down to a single element like that. Have you heard the newest batch of Nixon tapes? The Kissinger transcripts from the National Archives? Worth a listen. >What does Bobby Kennedy have to do with it? I can't believe you don't think he had an impact... >He and his brother were just another couple of politrixians who got what they deserved. How can you even talk about civil rights (or rights at all) when you think something like that. > >The reality is, your example of the 'troops in the street willing to gun > >'em down' (a paraphrase) is apt. The only thing stopping them is knowing > >that the majority of people don't believe it. They still believe in the > The thing stopping them is knowing that they are vastly outnumbered, > and if they escalate into using deadly force against the protesters, > there aremore than enough people who would come back with guns the next >day and wipe them out. Dream on. This isnt the 60's anymore...read about preparations for urban operations (keyword MOUT) and see what you're in for. It's a whole new ball game. >If Kent State had happened, for instance, at Berkley or Madison, >there is no question of what would have happened next, and probably that >very same day. But it didn't. These days, people get a little pepper spray in the face and the next thing you know they're on TV gasping and whining about those nasty old cops. What the hell did they expect? Some revolution, when they think it's worth crying around about the terrible injustice of getting non- vegitarian baloney sandwiches in jail. Ten years from now, those weakminded fuckers are probably going to sell out just like their pothead stock- options smug yuppie parents did. Everybody pats themselves on the back about how great the 60s were, but things didn't fundamentally change all that much. If they were so successful, than why is the state more bloated, more repressive and more intrusive than ever? We got out of Vietnam, but turned right around and sent the same special ops people into Central America and a hundred other places we don't even know much about. And so it goes. Committing violence in the US isn't the answer, working within the system to change it from the inside is. What came out of the Church Committee in terms of congressional oversight, the creation of the Freedom of Information Act, writing PGP and developing other privacy enhancing technologies--they all made a difference. Wouldn't you rather look back and know you spent your time on something real? > Geez, just look at the what those Pakistani kids are doing to the cops >in England. And they have no access to guns. Not only is there a big difference between the US and the UK, there's a difference between local and federal approaches to handling conflict. And given the huge push toward federalizing law enforcement, there's nothing at all to rest easy about. ~Faustine. From ravage at ssz.com Fri Jul 13 15:39:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:39:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010713122130.00dec550@flex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > How quaint. Do let us know when you move beyond strict technical > definitions. > > At 05:48 AM 7/13/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Yes. Clearly killfiling is a concept coterminous with censorship. I urge > >Reese to expand this campaign to people who change the channel too. Actually 'killfiles' are the mechanism of censorship. They are the 'how' of the 'what'. Changing the channel is also censorship. However they are both consensual so no rational would consider consensual acts somehow 'wrong'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 13 08:57:40 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:57:40 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Acts of the Apostles, recommended. Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:23:44 -0700 From: glen mccready To: 0xdeadbeef at petting-zoo.net Subject: Acts of the Apostles, recommended. Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at petting-zoo.net Forwarded-by: Nev Dull From: Christopher Sandstrom Small At USENIX last week, just inside the door at the vendor exhibition, there was an apparent loony set up at a folding table with large, multi-colored, hand-printed signs on poster board inviting people to buy a copy of a book titled "Acts of the Apostles". The signs looked like standard (sic) psychotic ramblings: * Learn how Gulf War Syndrome was caused by collusion between Digital MicroSystems and Scientists working in the Bowels of MIT!!! * The Author of This Book is the recipient of the Society of Technical Communication's Award of Distinguished Technical Communication and Brazil's Rei do Lixo medal! (If you know any Portuguese, you'll note that "Rei do Lixo" translates as "King of Trash".) The bearded, disheveled looking guy sitting behind the table (John Sundman, the author) was saying to everyone who passed by "Buy my book! Buy my book! Only $15 for an autographed copy!" (OK, for the USENIX crowd he was not at all disheveled -- longish hair and beard, sure, but he was wearing a shirt with a collar.) So I figure he's probably not dangerous. I walk over, and see that the book has been reviewed on Slashdot, geek.com, newstrolls, and salon.com (!). It's compared positively with Neal Stephenson's work. I pick it up and start to skim through it. It looks pretty good. What the hell, it's only $15. I fork it over, he signs a copy for me, and hands it to me. After all, how often do you get to read a book inspired both by Vannevar Bush and Ted Kaczynsky? Or one that both Borders and Barnes and Noble mis-file under "Christian Theology"? My wife zips through the book in a couple of days, then I start to read it, and I discover that the damn thing is a good read. There _is_ a familial resemblance between his style and Stephenson's. It read very much line Interface, or Cryptonomicon, if Stephenson had written one of them as his first book. Sure, there are some problems. It definitely reads like a first book (see Stephenson's "The Big U" -- also recommended). It could use a copy editing pass, and some tightening up here and there. And some of the references to people and entities I know or know of are none too well concealed -- Ken Olson, Esther Dyson, Doug Engelbart, Xerox PARC, Digital Equipment Corp ("Digital Data"), Sun Microsystems ("Stanford Microsystems"). Mosaic Technologies ("Mosaic Technologies") (may it rest in peace) (or pieces -- you'll understand if you've ever seen any of the hardware we shipped). Even if I hadn't met the guy, and read about the torturous path he took from professional geek to self published author (see http://www.wetmachine.com/links/index.shtml), the book is well worth the $15 risk, especially if you liked Interface and Cryptonomicon. And after reading his personal story, I'm very tempted to send him a check for a dozen copies and give them out to all of my geek^WCryptonomicon-loving friends. (I'll at least be buying a copy for my father-in-law, a retired physicist and big Stephenson fan.) You can read the first 13 chapters on-line, at http://www.wetmachine.com/acts/index.shtml. You can read reviews at http://www.wetmachine.com/reviews/index.shtml. And if the above sounds good, you can order a copy from Amazon.com or the author directly, at http://www.wetmachine.com/order/index.shtml. (My guess is that he makes less money if you buy it from Amazon.com, but benefits from having documented sales figures.) - Chris (N.b. I have no financial interest in sales of this book. I'm motivated by enlightened altruism -- I'd like the guy to sell enough copies to write a second book.) -- Christopher Sandstrom Small | 781.442.8644 Network Storage Technology Office | Sun Microsystems From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 13 08:57:40 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:57:40 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Acts of the Apostles, recommended. Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:23:44 -0700 From: glen mccready To: 0xdeadbeef at petting-zoo.net Subject: Acts of the Apostles, recommended. Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: 0xdeadbeef at petting-zoo.net Forwarded-by: Nev Dull From: Christopher Sandstrom Small At USENIX last week, just inside the door at the vendor exhibition, there was an apparent loony set up at a folding table with large, multi-colored, hand-printed signs on poster board inviting people to buy a copy of a book titled "Acts of the Apostles". The signs looked like standard (sic) psychotic ramblings: * Learn how Gulf War Syndrome was caused by collusion between Digital MicroSystems and Scientists working in the Bowels of MIT!!! * The Author of This Book is the recipient of the Society of Technical Communication's Award of Distinguished Technical Communication and Brazil's Rei do Lixo medal! (If you know any Portuguese, you'll note that "Rei do Lixo" translates as "King of Trash".) The bearded, disheveled looking guy sitting behind the table (John Sundman, the author) was saying to everyone who passed by "Buy my book! Buy my book! Only $15 for an autographed copy!" (OK, for the USENIX crowd he was not at all disheveled -- longish hair and beard, sure, but he was wearing a shirt with a collar.) So I figure he's probably not dangerous. I walk over, and see that the book has been reviewed on Slashdot, geek.com, newstrolls, and salon.com (!). It's compared positively with Neal Stephenson's work. I pick it up and start to skim through it. It looks pretty good. What the hell, it's only $15. I fork it over, he signs a copy for me, and hands it to me. After all, how often do you get to read a book inspired both by Vannevar Bush and Ted Kaczynsky? Or one that both Borders and Barnes and Noble mis-file under "Christian Theology"? My wife zips through the book in a couple of days, then I start to read it, and I discover that the damn thing is a good read. There _is_ a familial resemblance between his style and Stephenson's. It read very much line Interface, or Cryptonomicon, if Stephenson had written one of them as his first book. Sure, there are some problems. It definitely reads like a first book (see Stephenson's "The Big U" -- also recommended). It could use a copy editing pass, and some tightening up here and there. And some of the references to people and entities I know or know of are none too well concealed -- Ken Olson, Esther Dyson, Doug Engelbart, Xerox PARC, Digital Equipment Corp ("Digital Data"), Sun Microsystems ("Stanford Microsystems"). Mosaic Technologies ("Mosaic Technologies") (may it rest in peace) (or pieces -- you'll understand if you've ever seen any of the hardware we shipped). Even if I hadn't met the guy, and read about the torturous path he took from professional geek to self published author (see http://www.wetmachine.com/links/index.shtml), the book is well worth the $15 risk, especially if you liked Interface and Cryptonomicon. And after reading his personal story, I'm very tempted to send him a check for a dozen copies and give them out to all of my geek^WCryptonomicon-loving friends. (I'll at least be buying a copy for my father-in-law, a retired physicist and big Stephenson fan.) You can read the first 13 chapters on-line, at http://www.wetmachine.com/acts/index.shtml. You can read reviews at http://www.wetmachine.com/reviews/index.shtml. And if the above sounds good, you can order a copy from Amazon.com or the author directly, at http://www.wetmachine.com/order/index.shtml. (My guess is that he makes less money if you buy it from Amazon.com, but benefits from having documented sales figures.) - Chris (N.b. I have no financial interest in sales of this book. I'm motivated by enlightened altruism -- I'd like the guy to sell enough copies to write a second book.) -- Christopher Sandstrom Small | 781.442.8644 Network Storage Technology Office | Sun Microsystems From hotbizop at InfoGeneratorPRO.com Fri Jul 13 15:20:16 2001 From: hotbizop at InfoGeneratorPRO.com (hotbizop at InfoGeneratorPRO.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:20:16 -0400 Subject: Friend- EARN big BUCKS $$ Make big BUCKS $$ Message-ID: <200107132220.SAA05313@www.infogeneratorpro.com> $$$ READY FOR UNLIMITED FLAT RATE LONG DISTANCE $$$ Talk as long as you like! No More Long Distance BILLS! One Monthly Rate! Do all the 3 ways you want! Build your Team! PLUS make $3 for any referral paid monthly! Sign Up Today- GET UNLIMITED LONG DISTANCE! Sign Up Today- Earn $3 Per Referral! Sign Up Today at: www.mlmwebguru.com/flatrate.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Discover A Revolutionary Email Marketing System! http://www.infogeneratorpro.com/index.cgi?affiliate_id=12281 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Removal Instructions: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Remove yourself from this list: mailto:hotbizop at infogeneratorpro.com?subject=unsubscribe Remove yourself from all lists at InfoGeneratorPRO: mailto:hotbizop at infogeneratorpro.com?subject=unsubscribe_all Friend Subscribed at cypherpunks#ssz.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 13 15:51:30 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Digital money problems for Schwab Message-ID: <200107132251.SAA17950@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Snipped. http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB995029046412389105.htm # # July 13, 2001 # # Federal and State Regulators Fine # Charles Schwab Unit $10 Million # # By PAUL BECKETT # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # Federal and state bank regulators fined Charles Schwab Corp.'s # U.S. Trust unit $10 million -- one of the largest fines levied # against a U.S. bank -- as part of a settlement of allegations # that its internal controls and record-keeping were inadequate. # # The hefty fine, $5 million of which was levied by the Federal # Reserve, $5 million by the New York State Banking Department, # was accompanied by a cease-and-desist order, the second-highest # level of bank enforcement action short of a license revocation. # # People familiar with the matter say that some of the alleged # offenses that caused the severe regulatory action concerned the # bank's failure to report to the federal government currency # transactions over $10,000, as required by a federal law designed # to aid in combating money-laundering. # # The bank also failed to report transactions that appeared designed # to skirt those thresholds, for instance, when a customer either # deposited or withdrew an amount just shy of $10,000, these people # said. One person familiar with the matter said there were such # transactions for $9,999. Another scenario involved customers # making a series of withdrawals close together that totaled more # than $10,000 but were not in keeping with the client's normal # pattern of activity, people familiar with the matter say. 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I visit various sites that are supposed to be selling a product or service and get various messages such as: > We'd like to let you know you don't have the latest version of IE or Netscape and we'd like to ask you to upgrade your browser at this time. > We're sorry but this site can only be viewed with Internet Explorer. > If you want to view our site you'll have to download the flash media software. > Sorry you need to download these plug ins before viewing our site. Well I have to admit I'm out of there when it comes to any of these sites. If I'm looking for a product or service and you want my money, don't ask me to jump through hoops to hand it to you. I'm not visiting your site so I can spend the rest of the night adding plug ins, upgrading browsers and being told I'm not welcome unless I do a "dog and pony" show for you. Maybe I'm wrong, but web surfers have a limited attention span when it comes to making a buying decision and I really don't think they're coming to be impressed by your site. They're stopping by to see if you have what they want, need or desire. I'm sure many of these sites are making nice sales, but how many more are they losing? There are sites with a sales letter and maybe one or two graphics making sales around the clock. You stop by, see what they have to offer, and either you buy or you don't. They're saying, "Hey come as you are, you're always welcome." I know that there are a lot of goodies out there to impress visitors with, but I'd rather feel comfortable and welcome. If you expect me to spend my money make it easy. I'm not looking to spend the rest of the night making upgrades and changing browsers etc. so I can hand you my money. I may be old fashioned, but if you want my money, make me feel comfortable. I don't need to be told I have to change to hand you my money. 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For our secure order form, click here: http://bannersgomlm.com/ezine =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Don't Just Get Sales; Get Affiliates in the 2nd Tier!" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Most affiliates get sales from the respective affiliate programs they belong to by selling directly to visitors. But what about the 2nd Tier? Many affiliates programs allow you to sign up affiliates under you so you can earn commissions from the sales that YOUR affiliates are making. This is commonly referred to as the 2nd tier. However it is often ignored. Many of the most successful affiliates have built a huge 2nd tier in their programs where they have hundreds of other people all earning commissions for them. This means they earn a lot of their commissions from the indirect sales. It also means they do not have to concentrate so much on the direct sales. This frees up more of their time to work on promoting some of their other affiliate programs. Think about the power of the 2nd tier. You do one piece of work - getting an affiliate signed up under you in one of your affiliate programs. Then each of those affiliates sell the particular product or service separately themselves. Any sales that they make, you make a commission. The commission you make for the 2nd tier is much less than the direct commission. But if you have hundreds of affiliates under you, these many small amounts dwarf the 1 larger amount. If they sell this week - You get paid. If they sell next week - You get paid again. And if they sell next month - You STILL get paid. You get paid each time they get paid. Some affiliate programs allow you to earn commissions from your affiliates for many years. So by doing a little work today you can be earning commissions for years to come. So do not just sell direct to your visitors. Entice your visitors to become affiliates as well. Show them the benefits of joining an affiliate program. Tell them how much money they could make. Motivate them to sign up as an affiliate under you. In the long run this strategy will prove to be very successful for you. Don't forget the 2nd tier. It may be more valuable than you think. ------------------------------------- About the Author... - Article by David McKenzie of http://www.brisney.com For great ideas on promoting your web site or marketing your affiliate programs subscribe to our Free twice monthly newsletter by sending a blank email to mailto:brisney at brisney.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Win A FREE Ad In Community & Commentary =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To keep this interesting, how about this, every month we'll draw a name from the replies and that person will win one Sponsorship Showcase in the Community & Commentary, for FREE. That's a value of over $700.00! Respond to each weekly survey, and increase your chances to win with four separate entries. QUESTION OF THE WEEK (07/13/01) No right or wrong answers, and just by answering you are entered to win a Showcase ad - Free! ~~~ How often do you update your website? ~~~ daily weekly monthly 1-4x a year never To make this as easy as possible for you, just click on the e-mail address that matches your answer - you do not need to enter any information in the subject or body of the message. ** ADD YOUR COMMENTS! Follow directions above and add your comments in the body of the message, and we'll post the best commentaries along with the responses. You will automatically be entered in our drawing for a free Sponsorship ad in the Community & Commentary. Please respond only one time per question. Multiple responses from the same individual will be discarded. Last Weeks's Survey Results (07/06/01) ~~~ Do you spend more or less time ~~~ ~~~ online in the summer months? ~~~ More --- 9% Less --- 26% Same --- 65% =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To change your subscribed address, send both new and old address to mailto:Submit at AEOpublishing.com See the link (below) for our Subscription Center to unsubscribe or edit your interests. Please send suggestions and comments to: mailto:Editor at AEOpublishing.com I invite you to send your real successes and showcase your strategies and techniques, or yes, even your total bombs, "Working Together We Can All Prosper." mailto:Submit at AEOpublishing.com For information on how to sponsor Your Membership Community & Commentary visit: http://bannersgomlm.com/ezine Copyright 2001 AEOpublishing.com ------------------------------------------------ web: http://www.AEOpublishing.com ------------------------------------------------ This email has been sent to cypherpunks at cyberpass.net at your request, by Your Membership Newsletter Services. Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.rh75sx57&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20152 bytes Desc: not available URL: From easymoneyforu at home.com Fri Jul 13 22:22:10 2001 From: easymoneyforu at home.com (easymoneyforu at home.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:22:10 Subject: Easy Money Message-ID: <200107140633.f6E6XB123957@rigel.cyberpass.net> Hello Friend, I want to show you what I do for fun, which will make me an ADDITIONAL $250,000 THIS YEAR ALONE....and it takes only a fraction of the time that you and I spend at our regular jobs. Basically, I send out as many of these emails as I can, then people send me cash in the mail for information that I just email back to them. Every day, I make a three minute drive to my P.O. Box knowing that there are at least a few hundred dollars waiting for me. And the best part, IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL. Just read the next few pages and see what you think. If you like what you read, great....If you don't, read it again because you must have missed something! ------------------------------------------------------------ DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 US Dollars expense one time. THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say Bull, please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are absolutely NO laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE (Or have it emailed to you-See Submit Button below) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following, THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ===========Order all 5 reports shown on the list below===== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING AND YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST... $ 5 X 5 = $ 25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. IMPORTANT: DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in each step 1 through 6 or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed, because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down to report # 5. 3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down to report # 4. 4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down to report # 3. 5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down to report # 2. 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ***Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails, only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people responding to and ordering Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e- mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $ 5 EACH = $ 500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1...$ 50 + 2...$ 500 + 3..$ 5,000 4... $ 50,000 + 5... $ 500,000... GRAND TOTAL = $ 555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $ 5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. AVAILABLE REPORTS ========================================= ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $ 5 cash (US CURRENCY) for each report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & NAME of the Report you are ordering., YOUR E- MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. ****************** PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: REPORT # 1: The Insider's Guide To Advertising For Free On The Net Order Report # 1 from: Scott Lyons P.O. Box 2368 Frisco, Tx 75034 Report #2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk E-Mail On The Net Order Report #2 from: David Oualline 14307 Brook Hollow Blvd San Antonio, TX 78232 Report # 3: The Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net Order Report # 3 from: Tony Diodato 4730 Levick Street Philadelphia PA, 19135 Report # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Utilizing MLM & The Net Order Report # 4 from: Robert Youngblood P.O. Box 425384 San Francisco, CA 94142 Report # 5: How To Send 1 Million E-Mails For Free Order Report # 5 from: Geoffrey Gimbel 160 East 38th Street, Apt 22A New York, NY 10016 $$$$$YOUR SUCCESS GUIDE$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report # 1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME, SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is no limit to the income you can generate from this business!!! FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report # 1 and moved others to # 2...# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ===================================================== If you believe this message has reached you in error, or if you wish to unsubscribe to this mailing list, please reply to the above email address with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 13 21:39:56 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:39:56 -0500 Subject: The Register - Afghanistan 'bans' the Internet Message-ID: <3B4FCD1C.6A6D93E0@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20381.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 14 01:26:37 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hash/reputation server Message-ID: <20010714082637.44725.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> These folks provide hash/tag directory for peer-to-peer file sharing. http://www.bitzi.com/ >From http://www.bitzi.com/developer/code : "Bitprint Definition Our distinctive bitprint is actually a combination of several nonproprietary cryptographic hash values. We take both the SHA1 hash of a file, and the "TigerTree" hash of a file. TigerTree is based on the Tiger hash algorithm, applied to each 1024-byte block of a file, then combined up through a binary hash tree to a final summary value. Such a composited hash tree value allows compact proofs that file fragments combine to form the full file - a useful quality for verifying or resuming downloads-in-progress from unreliable peers, among other applications. " __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From leinadmoolb at hotmail.com Sat Jul 14 01:55:15 2001 From: leinadmoolb at hotmail.com (Taiwan Calling!) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:55:15 -0000 Subject: URGENT..........major hoax may be spreading see below URLS Message-ID: Human-head transplant one step closer Medical breakthrough nears as quadraplygic agrees to operation 2001-07-14 / Reporter / Lance Laytner EDIT INTERNATIONAL Craig Vetovitz, center, pictured with Dr. Robert J. White, has agreed to undergo the first ever human-head transplant surgery. (Edit International) The final frontier in organ transplants is about to be crossed with a living human head transplanted to a new body. The historic operation will be performed by Dr. Robert J. White of the United States who is widely considered the greatest brain surgeon on earth. Dr. White, who teaches top brain surgeons around the world and is scientific adviser to the Pope and brain surgeon to the last three Popes is uniquely qualified to perform the astonishing operation. For more details, please see Taiwan News. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 14 11:17:27 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 11:17:27 -0700 Subject: violent antitax protest/riot in US Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010714111727.008fda10@pop.sprynet.com> Friday July 13 6:33 AM ET Anti-Tax Protests at Tenn. Capitol By KARIN MILLER, Associated Press Writer NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Protesters hurled rocks through Capitol windows, chanted ``no new tax!'' and banged on the locked doors of the Senate chamber where Tennessee lawmakers were debating the creation of a state income tax. The tax plan had died before the protesters arrived Thursday, but when word spread that lawmakers had passed a no-tax budget, cheers went up among the hundreds of protesters. ``The people are passionate when they say, 'no income tax','' said Steve Gill, a Nashville radio talk show host who had called on tax opponents to swarm the Capitol. Anti-tax protests have been frequent the past three years as lawmakers considered implementing a state income tax, but the protests had always been peaceful - until Thursday. Within hours of hearing that the Legislature was considering a last-minute income tax plan, protesters swarmed into the area, honking car horns, waving signs reading ``Tax Revolt!'' and bringing traffic outside the Capitol to a standstill. The rock-throwers busted several windows, including one in the governor's office. State troopers escorted lawmakers in the halls and locked the doors to the Capitol. One state employee trying to lock a side door was injured as the weight of the crowd pushed against him. No arrests were made and no other injuries were reported. ``I appreciate the right of all Americans to free speech and peaceful protest. I do not, however, approve of those who advocate violence and I regret that occurred at the Capitol,'' Gov. Don Sundquist said in a statement. Sundquist has said he would veto any budget that didn't include a new revenue plan. The budget the Legislature passed doesn't include the 3.5 percent income tax lawmakers had discussed. It instead cuts $339 million from the governor's $19.9 billion spending plan, requires state agencies to save an additional $100 million, and uses $560 million in tobacco settlement money - four years worth - to balance the budget. Sundquist wouldn't say if he would sign it. Tennessee is one of nine states without a broad-based income tax, but it has one of the highest sales tax rates at 6 percent, with local governments adding up to 2.75 percent. Sen. Bob Rochelle, a Democratic proponent of a state income tax, had argued that the sales tax could be reduced if an income tax was implemented. ``The day will come when we won't mistreat our citizens any more with that tax,'' he said. Republican Sen. David Fowler, an opponent of the income tax, said negotiations had already broken down by the time most of the protesters arrived. One proposal discussed would have put plans for an income tax to a statewide vote. Fowler said the protest may have ``effectively killed'' that as an option. ``I don't know if they knew that's what they were doing, but that's what they were doing,'' Fowler said. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010713/us/tennessee_capitol_protest_8.html From jbillingsby at optusnet.com.au Fri Jul 13 19:43:31 2001 From: jbillingsby at optusnet.com.au (jackie) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:43:31 +1000 Subject: anarchy Message-ID: <000001c11197$650a6b00$04000005@t9z0r1> y do u like cookin anarchists -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 352 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Jul 14 12:46:20 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Echols Sits on MCI/Worldcom Message-ID: <200107141946.f6EJkKf00313@artifact.psychedelic.net> As hysteria over imagined sexual predation and the criminalization of even thoughts and written words make headlines in the news, there's one individual who's reaping a bountiful harvest from the dancing Sheeple. He is, of course, everyones favorite Network Vigilante, convicted criminal and religious nut Walter Harlan "Mike" Echols, who runs BAM, the largest and most successful child advocacy scam on the Internet. Echols' latest wet dream is a plan to harrass tier one backbone providers into not carrying content he deems objectionable, and the rotund one, who is fond of labeling his dissenters as "Internet Child Sex Predators and Child Pronographers," has set his sights on MCI/Worldcom/uunet as his latest target. It will be interesting to see whether the resulting "Boycott and Hound" campaign will bear fruit, and whether a multinational corporation is as vulnerable to the same threats and harrassment tactics that have worked so well with smaller providers over the years, and have resulted in Echols presently being on probation for terrorism. According to Echols, ... <> BoyChat is one of the most heavily moderated and G-Rated forums of its type on the Internet, and also one of the most widely read. It is absurd to suggest that all its viewers are pedophiles, or even more silly, convicted child sex predators publicly plotting and scheming to commit shocking new crimes. Still, Echols' organization continues to grow, raking in sponsorship from companies like Gateway, MP3.com, and Kinkos. Self-declared child-advocacy seems to have a baptismal effect these days. Lengthy criminal records are instantly washed away with a simple declaration that one is devoting ones life to hate speech directed at "pervs." Some links, if anyone cares: BoyChat http://www.boychat.org/ BAM http://www.shadow-net.com/ My Echols Links http://artifact.psychedelic.net/~emc/echols.html -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jalbino at jwalbino.com Sat Jul 14 10:46:22 2001 From: jalbino at jwalbino.com (John Albino) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:46:22 -0400 Subject: Massachusetts Man Guilty of Wiretapping for Taping Police Harassment Message-ID: Declan, Here's an AP article which appeared in the Boston Globe Friday. http://www.boston.com/news/daily/13/police_recording.htm The Mass. Supreme Court essentially says that it is illegal wiretapping to secretly videotape police officers harassing someone during a traffic stop. Wonder if using a film camera would also be wiretapping? -- John Albino mailto:jalbino at jwalbino.com ********* The opinion is here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=sjcslip/8429&invol=1 >GREANEY, J. This case raises the issue whether a motorist may be >prosecuted for violating the Massachusetts electronic surveillance >statute, G. L. c. 272, 嚙 99, for secretly tape recording statements made >by police officers during a routine traffic stop. A jury in the District >Court convicted the defendant on four counts of a complaint charging him >with unlawfully intercepting the oral communications of another, in >violation of G. L. c. 272, 嚙 99 F. The defendant appealed, and we granted >his application for direct appellate review. We conclude that G. L. c. >272, 嚙 99, strictly prohibits the secret electronic recording by a private >individual of any oral communication, and makes no exception for a >motorist who, having been stopped by police officers, surreptitiously tape >records the encounter. Accordingly, we affirm the judgments of conviction. >[...] > >During the course of the stop, which lasted approximately fifteen to >twenty minutes, the defendant and his passenger, Daniel Hartesty, were >ordered out of the automobile, and Hartesty was pat frisked. One officer >reached into the automobile, picked up a plastic shopping bag that lay on >the floor by the passenger seat, and looked inside. (The bag contained >compact discs.) At one point, the defendant stated that the stop was "a >bunch of bullshit," and that he had been stopped because of his long hair. >One officer responded, "Don't lay that shit on me." Later, another officer >called the defendant "an asshole." The defendant was asked whether he had >any "blow" (cocaine) in the car. [...] ********* The text of the statute is here: http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/272%2D99.htm >Except as otherwise specifically provided in this section any person who嚙 >willfully commits an interception, attempts to commit an interception, or >procures any other person to commit an interception or to attempt to >commit an interception of any wire or oral ommunication shall be fined not >more than ten thousand dollars, or imprisoned in the state prison for not >more than five years, or imprisoned in a jail or house of correction for >not more than two and one half years, or both so fined and given one such >imprisonment. ********* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From amaha at vsnl.net Sat Jul 14 13:03:39 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:03:39 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107142003.f6EK3cp14759@ak47.algebra.com> Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration. -- Thomas A. Edison ======================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From healey at smyrnacable.net Sat Jul 14 13:40:55 2001 From: healey at smyrnacable.net (Vic_Healey) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:40:55 -0400 Subject: [4phun] Massachusetts electronic surveillance law upheld Message-ID: BOSTON (AP) A rock musician who was found guilty of wiretapping after he secretly recorded police during a traffic stop had his conviction upheld by the state's highest court. Michael Hyde, 33, said he turned on his tape recorder on Oct. 26, 1998, after being pulled over by Abington police because he believed he had been unfairly targeted because of his long hair, leather jacket and sports car. Hyde recorded officers using an obscenity, asking him if he had any cocaine in his car, and threatening to send him to jail. They let him go without a ticket, but several days later, Hyde brought the tape to police headquarters to try to prove he was harassed. Instead, he was charged and convicted of breaking the state's electronic surveillance law, getting six months of probation. Hyde said the Supreme Judicial Court's decision Friday "slapped the people of Massachusetts very hard in the face." At Hyde's trial, police testified they pulled him over because of the loud revving of his car's engine, a noisy muffler and a broken license plate light. The court rejected Hyde's argument that the surveillance law was not applicable because police were performing their public duties and therefore had no reasonable expectation of privacy. "We conclude that the Legislature intended (the law) strictly to prohibit all secret recordings by members of the public, including recordings of police officers or other public officials interacting with members of the public, when made without their permission or knowledge," Justice John M. Greaney wrote in the majority opinion. In a strongly worded dissent, the two justices said the wiretapping statute was not meant to prevent citizens from recording an encounter with police. Chief Justice Margaret Marshall and Justice Robert Cordy used the famous videotape of the Rodney King police beating in Los Angeles as an example of a recording that would have been prohibited under Massachusetts law. Prosecutor Robert Thompson said the language of the law explicitly protects the privacy rights of all individuals, whether they are private citizens or police officers. Hyde vowed to continue his fight. "Right now I am looking for an attorney who wants to take this to a federal court," he said. "If I drop this right now it could negatively affect a lot of people." Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From rguerra at yahoo.com Sat Jul 14 14:16:29 2001 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Community of Cyborgs Message-ID: The following might be of interest: http://www.existech.com/tpw/ http://www.eyetap.org/tpw/index2.php -- Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. "The Life of Reason," 1906, George Santayana (1863-1952) -- Robert Guerra PGP Keys To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: cpsr_privacy-unsubscribe at egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From jya at pipeline.com Sat Jul 14 17:26:03 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:26:03 -0700 Subject: CIA Wizardry Message-ID: <200107142125.RAA17087@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Robert Windrem, national security correspondent for NBC, reported on July 12 about Jeffrey Richelson's new book, "The Wizards of Langley," on the CIA's deceptive technologies: http://www.msnbc.com/news/599637.asp Blurb: "Intelligence historian Jeffrey Richelson's latest book focuses on four decades of innovation and inside secrets at the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology." Windrew describes one deception involving a faked satellite failure which apparently deceived Soviet experts but not amateurs who track sats. Publication date of Richelson's book is August 3 but copies are available early. MSNBC offers an informative series on "The Secret Empire: The U.S. Military in the 21st Century," which provides uncommon technological critique of the tools of war and espionage and their piggish industries. Far superior to the fluff being peddled by the agencies and their puff-ball hosts. Windrem is alleged to be the first to report on Echelon by name, purpose and field stations and fed earliest stuff to Duncan Campbell. He may someday republish his NBC reports of decades past on national security that are no longer available. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 14 16:46:54 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:46:54 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal Message-ID: <3B50D9EE.DA65ECA3@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/14/0834224.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Jul 14 16:55:23 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:55:23 -0500 Subject: Mass. bumper sticker: "Police Surveillance System On Board" Message-ID: The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld a motorist's conviction pursuant to their state electronic surveillance statute for the surreptitious audio recording of police officers during a "routine" traffic stop. I think the opinion speaks for itself. See especially FN 6 and 10. --- COMMONWEALTH vs. MICHAEL J. HYDE July 13, 2001 http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=sjcslip/8429&i nvol=1 GREANEY, J. ... The relevant facts are not in dispute. On October 26, 1998, just after 10:30 P.M., an Abington police officer stopped the defendant's white Porsche, because the automobile had an excessively loud exhaust system and an unlit rear registration plate light. Three other Abington police officers arrived shortly thereafter and the stop quickly became confrontational.(1) During the course of the stop, which lasted approximately fifteen to twenty minutes, the defendant and his passenger, Daniel Hartesty, were ordered out of the automobile, and Hartesty was pat frisked. One officer reached into the automobile, picked up a plastic shopping bag that lay on the floor by the passenger seat, and looked inside. (The bag contained compact discs.) At one point, the defendant stated that the stop was "a bunch of bullshit," and that he had been stopped because of his long hair. One officer responded, "Don't lay that shit on me." Later, another officer called the defendant "an asshole." The defendant was asked whether he had any "blow" (cocaine) in the car. At the conclusion of the stop, the defendant and Hartesty were allowed to leave. No traffic citation was issued to the defendant, and the defendant was not charged with any crime. According to the testimony of one police officer, the defendant was "almost out of control" and the stop "had gone so sour," that it was deemed in everyone's interest simply to give the defendant a verbal warning. Unbeknownst to the officers, however, the defendant had activated a hand-held tape recorder at the inception of the stop and had recorded the entire encounter. ... The judge (the same judge who had ordered that the complaint issue) rejected the defendant's argument and denied the motion to dismiss. The judge reasoned that the definition of "oral communication" under G. L. c. 272, ' 99 B 2 ("speech, except such speech as is transmitted over public air waves by radio or other similar device"), was clear, and, unlike the definition in the Federal electronic surveillance statute,(2) did not require an expectation of privacy by the speaker in order to make the statute applicable. He concluded that the Massachusetts statute prohibited the secret tape recording of the police officers' speech. The defendant was tried before a jury and convicted of four counts of violating G. L. c. 272, ' 99. ... The dissent reaches its conclusion by ignoring the unambiguous language and definitions of the statute and by relying on purported (and dubious) legislative history. The dissent suggests that the defendant's secret recording of the words of the police officers should be lawful, because such recording may tend to hold police officers accountable for improper behavior. Implicit in the dissent's position is the even broader suggestion that police officers routinely act illegally or abusively, to the degree that public policy strongly requires documentation of details of contacts between the police and members of the public to protect important rights. We doubt the validity of the dissent's major premise, and we are not convinced that the widespread clandestine recording of encounters between individuals and police officers would be desirable or even efficacious.(9) Nor do we think, as the dissent does, that police officers should be singled out for particular approbation to safeguard the integrity of the "Republic." Post at . Followed to its logical conclusion, the dissent would encourage drug manufacturers to mount hidden video cameras in their facilities so they can capture the moment of truth when the police execute a search warrant and would authorize drug dealers secretly to tape record conversations with suspected undercover officers or with informants in order to protect the dealers' rights against hypothetical police abuse. Numerous other examples exist. The point is an obvious one. Every police encounter would be available for secret recording; even meter maids would not be spared. The value of obtaining probative evidence of occasional official misconduct does not justify a failure to enforce the clear terms of the statute. See Commonwealth v. Blood, 400 Mass. 61, 74 (1987), and cases cited. ... Further, if the tape recording here is deemed proper on the ground that public officials are involved, then the door is opened even wider to electronic "bugging" or secret audio tape recording (both are prohibited by the statute and both are indistinguishable in the injury they inflict) of virtually every encounter or meeting between a person and a public official, whether the meeting or encounter is one that is stressful (like the one in this case or, perhaps, a session with a tax auditor) or nonstressful (like a routine meeting between a parent and a teacher in a public school to discuss a good student's progress). The door once opened would be hard to close, and the result would contravene the statute's broad purpose and the Legislature's clear prohibition of all secret interceptions and recordings by private citizens.... ... As discussed above, however, our Legislature chose not to follow those States whose statutes prohibit wiretapping or secret electronic recording based on privacy rights. See notes 5 and 6, supra. "If the Legislature had intended to [prohibit only secret recording where an individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy], the statute would have been written in terms similar to those used in the California eavesdropping statute . . . . Rather, it is apparent from the Report of the Special Commission on Electronic Eavesdropping, 1968 Senate Doc. No. 1132, that the legislative intent was to impose more stringent restrictions on the use of electronic surveillance devices by private individuals than is done in other States." ... (5) Every State, with the exception of Vermont, has some type of eavesdropping or wiretapping statute. The majority contain language that, to some degree, prohibits only the surreptitious recording of another's words when spoken with a reasonable expectation of privacy. See, e.g., Ala. Code ' 42.20.300 (Michie 1996) (Alabama; "private communication"); Ga. Code Ann. ' 16-11-60 (Michie 1996) (Georgia; "in private place"); Mich. Comp. Laws ' 750.539a (1996) (Michigan; "private discourse of others"); N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. ' 570-A: 1 (1995) (New Hampshire; "uttered by a person exhibiting an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation"). In addition, as recognized by the judge in his memorandum denying the defendant's motion to dismiss, the Federal electronic surveillance statute, see note 2, supra, similarly limits "oral communication" to the speech of a person who holds a justifiable expectation that it will not be subject to interception. For an extensive discussion of various State electronic surveillance statutes, see C. Bast, What's Bugging You? Inconsistencies and Irrationalities of the Law of Eavesdropping, 47 DePaul L. Rev. 837, 868-881 (1998). (6) The defendant cites State v. Flora, 68 Wash. App. 802, 806 (1992), in which the Court of Appeals of Washington held, on nearly identical facts, that an arrestee's attempt to use a tape recorder to record his arrest did not violate Washington's electronic surveillance statute, because the police officers had no reasonable expectation of privacy in their words. This case is inapposite, however, because the Washington electronic surveillance statute prohibits only the secret recording of private conversations, see Wash. Rev. Code Ann. ' 9.73.030 (1) (b) (2000). Accord Commonwealth v. Henlen, 522 Pa. 514, 517 (1989) (secret recording of interrogation by prison guard suspected of theft did not violate Pennsylvania's electronic surveillance statute, because interrogating officer had no justifiable expectation of privacy). See 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. ' 5702 (2000) (defining "oral communications" as "any oral communication uttered by a person possessing an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation"). Because our own statute broadly prohibits the interception of speech (except that which is transmitted over public air waves), see G. L. c. 272, ' 99 B 2, whether the police officers possessed privacy interests in their words spoken in the course of performing their public duties, or whether the encounter constituted a routine traffic stop or a custodial interrogation, as argued by the defendant, are issues that we need not address. Consideration of such issues would only be warranted in a civil suit for damages under G. L. c. 272, ' 99 Q, which allows actual and punitive damages, as well as attorneys fees, for: "any aggrieved person whose oral or wire communications were intercepted, disclosed, or used except as permitted or authorized by this section or whose personal or property interests or privacy were violated by means of an interception except as permitted or authorized by this section shall have a civil cause of action against any person who so intercepts, discloses or uses such communications or who so violates his personal, property or privacy interest . . . ." (Emphasis added). ... (9) Although we have stated that the electronic recording by the police of interrogations is a good practice, see Commonwealth v. Diaz, 422 Mass. 269, 271-273 (1996), by no stretch of the imagination did we suggest that it is desirable for citizens to intercept or record electronically the speech of others, including police officers, without their knowledge. We presume that, when police interrogations are electronically recorded, the suspect is aware that the interrogation is being preserved. (10) Although not cited by the parties, in People v. Beardsley, 115 Ill. 2d 47 (1986), a defendant appealed from his conviction of eavesdropping when, having been arrested and placed in the rear seat of a squad car, he secretly tape recorded the conversation of two police officers who sat in the front seat. See id. at 49. The Supreme Court of Illinois reversed the defendant's conviction, holding that, although the plain language of the Illinois eavesdropping statute prohibited the recording of "all or any part of any conversation" without consent, Ill. Ann. Stat. c. 38, ' 14-2 (a) (1) (1983), the statute must have been intended to protect individuals only from the surreptitious monitoring of conversations of a private nature. See id. at 53 (reasoning that, because officers were aware that the defendant was in a position to overhear, their conversation was not private). The Illinois Legislature, however, subsequently amended the statute to define "conversation" as "any oral communication between 2 or more persons regardless of whether one or more of the parties intended their communication to be of a private nature." 720 Ill. Comp. Stat. ' 5/14-1(d) (West 1996). See People v. Nestrock, 316 Ill. App. 3d 1, 7 (2000). ======================================================== MARSHALL, C.J. (dissenting, with whom Cordy, J., joins). ======================================================== ... Many States have wiretapping statutes similar to the one enacted in 1968 in Massachusetts.(10) In only one reported decision has a State attempted to indict a citizen in circumstances similar to those in this case. The attempt was summarily rejected. In State v. Flora, 68 Wash. App. 802 (1992), the court overturned a conviction obtained in circumstances nearly identical to these and under a wiretapping statute similar to the one at issue here. The Flora court rejected as "wholly without merit" the view now adopted by this court. Id. at 806. The court "decline[d] the State's invitation" to transform its wiretapping statute "into a sword available for use against individuals by public officers acting in their official capacity." Id. at 808.(11) ... The court suggests, ante at , that a different reading would permit "untrammeled interception of communications" of government officials by everyone and anyone. That concern is misplaced. There is a difference in kind, well recognized in our jurisprudence, between police officers, who have the authority to command citizens, take them into custody, and to use physical force against them, and other public officials who do not possess such awesome powers.(14) We hold police officers to a higher standard of conduct than other public employees, and their privacy interests are concomitantly reduced. See, e.g., O'Connor v. Police Comm'r of Boston, 408 Mass. 324, 328-329 (1990) ("public confidence in the police is a social necessity and is enhanced by procedures that deter [unlawful police conduct]"); Broderick v. Police Comm'r of Boston, 368 Mass. 33, 42 (1975), quoting Gardner v. Broderick, 392 U.S. 273, 277-278 (1968) (police officer "is a trustee of the public interest, bearing the burden of great and total responsibility to his public employer"). We hold officers to this higher standard of conduct, fully confident that, in most cases, they will meet that standard, and there is no "implicit" suggestion to the contrary. Ante at . It is the recognition of the potential for abuse of power that has caused our society, and law enforcement leadership, to insist that citizens have the right to demand the most of those who hold such awesome powers.(15) [...] ~Aimee From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Jul 14 17:16:36 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:16:36 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <3B50D9EE.DA65ECA3@ssz.com> Message-ID: Sorry Choate, didn't catch your "analysis" in time. ;) Your subj line is descriptive, but somewhat misleading. ~Aimee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Jim Choate > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:47 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; hell at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > > > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/14/0834224.shtml From die at die.com Sat Jul 14 18:43:36 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:43:36 -0400 Subject: [healey@smyrnacable.net: [4phun] Massachusetts electronic surveillance law upheld] Message-ID: <20010714214336.B30314@die.com> ----- Forwarded message from Vic_Healey ----- From rguerra at yahoo.com Sat Jul 14 18:50:54 2001 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:50:54 -0400 Subject: [Announcement] Nov 1-2, The Human Face of Privacy Technology Message-ID: I believe this announcement might be of interest to the folks on here. http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/conferences/2001/isw-eighth/announcement.html > 2001 Conferences 8th CACR Information Security Workshop 2nd Annual Privacy and Security Workshop The Human Face of Privacy Technology November 1 & 2, 2001 Centre for Applied Cryptographic Research (CACR) University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada This is the first announcement. Please pass this announcement to any colleagues who might be interested in attending. Updates, including the abstracts of talks and speaker bios, workshop program, and hotel information, will be posted to this web-site as the information becomes available. This information will also be included in the second announcement to be mailed on July 16, 2001. INTRODUCTION The 8th CACR Information Security Workshop: The Human Face of Privacy Technology will be held November 1 & 2, 2001, at the University of Toronto, Canada (exact location to be announced). This is the second annual conference jointly organized by the Information Privacy Commission of Ontario and the Center for Applied Cryptographic Research, University of Waterloo. WORKSHOP THEME: Cell phone users were recently outraged when their private conversations were streamed live over the Internet. Digital cell phone users became equally stressed when the wireless encryption standard - 802.11 they had been using to protect their conversations was cracked. Even more disconcerting, places such as Guatemala see human rights workers, using privacy technologies to protect other civil rights groups' identities and the information they report on civil rights abuses, experience daily threats of information theft as well as kidnappings. Within the last year those involved in developing and implementing technology have experienced a growing awareness of privacy risks within those technologies and a better understanding of privacy averse environments. This awareness has brought to the fore the need to further develop and implement technologies that are privacy protective. Parallel to this, around the globe, economic crime units and law enforcement agencies, governments, businesses and lawyers wrestle with the tools to combat the international specter of cyber crime, while often sidelining key privacy issues. The exploration of privacy and security issues is fundamental to understanding how the construction and implementation of privacy policies and technologies can be improved for the real world. This year's workshop will explore these and other privacy and security issues through a mix of traditional panel discussions and presentations as well as a Mock Cyber Crime Trial with audience participation and an interactive subject rights counter-surveillance event lead by Dr. Steve Mann, U of Toronto. The workshop builds on the comments and suggestions provided by last year's delegates and speakers who suggested a further exploration into both leading edge privacy and security technologies and an exploration of the context that these technologies work within. As a result, the conference has been expanded to cover two days, including parallel breakout sessions. Attendee spots have been increased to 210 to meet demand and more time for discussion and networking has been set-aside in the evenings. For early registrants a conference package will be sent out before the event that includes additional material on the conference objective, speakers/organizers and a detailed backgrounder for the scheduled Mock Cyber Crime Trial that will take place. The intended audience includes technology and security experts, CIO's, senior technology executives, cryptographers, engineers, law enforcement, academics, private sector leaders, privacy experts and students. Sponsors: * Alcatel Canada * Certicom Corp. * Communications Security Establishment, Canadian Federal Government * Information & Privacy Commission, Ontario * JetNet Managed Internet Services Inc. * MITACS * Pitney Bowes Organizers: ----------- * Mike Gurski (Conference Chair) Information & Privacy Commission, Ontario * Alfred Menezes Centre for Applied Cryptographic Research (CACR) University of Waterloo * Sherry Shannon Centre for Applied Cryptographic Research (CACR) and SVI Consulting Program Co-ordinators: ----------------------- * Pasha Peroff, Technology Policy Reseracher, Information & Privacy Commission, Ontario * Jason Young, Legal Dept., Information & Privacy Commission, Ontario * Robert Guerra, Director, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR) Speakers (Partial List): ------------------------ * Dave Banisar, Deputy Director, Privacy International * Dr. Ann Cavoukian, Information & Privacy Commission, Ontario * Jennifer Granick, Clinical Director - Center for Internet & Society, Stanford University * Scott Hutchinson, Sr. Prosecutor, Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General * Dr. Steven Mann, University of Toronto * Stephanie Perrin, Chief Privacy Officer, Zero Knowledge & Recipient of the 2001 Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award * Ron Ross, President, Jet Net * Ari Schwartz, Center for Democracy and Technology * Lawrence Surtees, IDC & Network World columnist * Kristen Tsolis, Cyber Terrorism Researcher, US Navy Postgraduate School * Dr. Scott Vanstone, Founder & Chief Cryptography, Certicom Corp. * Minky Worden, Electronic Media Director, Human Rights Watch Workshop Program Day One 8:00 - 9:00 AM Registration 8:00 - 9:00 Continental Breakfast 9:00 - 9:20 Welcome from the Chair Ann Cavoukian, Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario. (cf) 9:20 - 10:20 Keynote: Re-inventing Privacy: Imperative for Human Rights Protection Stephanie Perrin, Chief Privacy Officer, Zero-Knowledge Systems. (cf) 10:20 - 10:50 Refreshment Break 10:50 AM - 12:00 PM Panel Presentation: A More Transparent Society: Perspectives on subject rights Dr. Steve Mann, Professor, Computer Engineering Research Group, University of Toronto. (cf) 12:00 - 12:30 (Lunch break) 12:30 - 1:30 Lunch Speaker: Democracy and Limitations on Free Speech and Anonymity Lawrence Surtees, Reporter - telecommunications and high-technology, Globe & Mail. (cf) 1:30 - 2:10 JetNet Presentation: The Challenges of Turning a Security Company in to a Privacy & Security Company Ron Ross 2:10 - 4:30 Cybercrime Trial: Jennifer Granick, Clinical Director - Center for Internet & Society, Stanford. (cf) Scott Hutchison, Sr. Prosecutor, Ontario Ministry of Attorney General. (cf) Dave Banisar, Deputy Director, Privacy International (cf) Kristen Tsolis, Cyber-Terrorism Researcher, U.S. Navy Postgraduate School. (cf) Technological Crime Unit, Commercial Crime Section, RCMP. (uncf) Arni Stinnissen, Electronic Crime Team, Anti-Rackets Section, OPP. (uncf) Allan Manson, Professor of Law, Queen's University. (uncf) 4:30 - 5:30 Conference Adjourns 5:30 - 9:00 Dinner & Entertainment A night of hot jazz/downtempo grooves by a local band (venue undecided). (uncf) Day Two 8:00 - 9:00 AM Continental Breakfast 9:00 - 10:15 Breakout A: Panel: Latest developments in privacy and security technology IBM Labs/Tivoli (cf) Dr. Scott Vanstone, Chief Cryptographer, Certicom Corporation. (cf) Breakout B: Privacy in the Workplace Mary O'Donoghue, Information and Privacy Commissioner/Ontario (cf) 10:15 - 11:00 Refreshment Break 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM Panel Presentation: Wireless Privacy, the Do's and Don'ts of wireless Ari Schwartz, Sr. Policy Analyst, Center for Democracy & Technology, Washington, D.C. (cf) Mike Gurski, Sr. Technology Policy Advisor, Information and Privacy Commissioner/Ontario. (cf) 12:00 - 12:30 (Lunch break) 12:30 - 1:30 Lunch Speaker: Protecting Human Rights With Privacy Technology Minky Worden, Electronic Media Director, Human Rights Watch. (cf) Amnesty International (uncf) 1:30 - 3:00 Breakout C: Critical Analysis methods for the Future: A case study of the cracking of the 802.11 encryption code Speakers unconfirmed Breakout D: XXX Peter Hope-Tindall, dataPrivacy Partners. (cf) U8TV 3:00 - 4:30 Concluding Remarks: Challenging Complacence Brian Beamish, Director, Policy and Compliance, Information and Privacy Commissioner/Ontario (cf) Alfred Menezes, Professor, Department of Combinatorics and Optimization, University of Waterloo. (cf) 4:30 PM Conference Ends Registration There is no registration fee for guests invited by the sponsors (Certicom, Communications Security Establishment, Information & Privacy Commission, JetNet, MITACS, and Pitney Bowes). The registration fee for other participants is as follows: * Cdn $300 (US $150). * For participants affiliated with an academic institution: Cdn $100 (US $75). Please register as soon as possible as space is limited for this workshop; registration is on a first-come first-serve basis. Please note that there may be an additional banquet fee of Cdn $30 (US $20) for all registrants who wish to attend the workshop banquet on November 1. Details will be included in the second announcement. To register, complete, in full, the attached REGISTRATION FORM and return it along with your payment to: Mrs. Frances Hannigan, C&O Dept., University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1. You may also register by email (fhannigan at math.uwaterloo.ca) or by phone (Frances Hannigan: 519-888-4027). ------------------------cut from here--------------------------------- 8th CACR INFORMATION SECURITY WORKSHOP REGISTRATION FORM THE HUMAN FACE OF PRIVACY TECHNOLOGY Fullname: _________________________________________________________ Affiliation: _________________________________________________________ Address: _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ E-Mail Address: _________________________________________________________ Telephone #: _________________________________________________________ **Make Cheque/Money Order Payable in Cdn or US funds only to: CACR **Credit Card payments can now be accepted: [ ] Visa [ ] MasterCard Cardholder's Name: ____________________________________________ Card Number: __________________________________________________ Expiration Date: ______________________________________________ Signature: ____________________________________________________ -------------------------cut from here------------------------------- Accommodations The workshop will be held at The University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario. Each participant will arrange their own travel and accommodation for the meeting. There are many hotels close to The University of Toronto. A list of hotels will be provided in the second announcement. Travel The closest airport is Lester Pearson Airport (Toronto Airport). For further information or to return your Registration, please contact: Mrs. Frances Hannigan Department of Combinatorics & Optimization University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3G1 e-mail: fhannigan at math.uwaterloo.ca Fax: (519) 725-5441 Phone: (519) 888-4027 -- Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. "The Life of Reason," 1906, George Santayana (1863-1952) -- Robert Guerra PGP Keys From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 14 20:15:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:15:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's not mine. On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > Sorry Choate, didn't catch your "analysis" in time. ;) > > Your subj line is descriptive, but somewhat misleading. > > ~Aimee > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > > Behalf Of Jim Choate > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:47 PM > > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; hell at einstein.ssz.com > > Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > > > > > > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/14/0834224.shtml > -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Sat Jul 14 20:13:07 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:13:07 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: ; from aimee.farr@pobox.com on Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 07:16:36PM -0500 References: <3B50D9EE.DA65ECA3@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> I followed a link in the /. thread to http://policeabuse.com , highly recommended. They track episodes of police abuse, and do some quality-control on the procedures police departments to handle (or avoid) complaints. They contend that taping police (video and/or audio) is legal in most states, in most circumstances. An alleged lawyer posted to the /. discussion, saying the Mass. story the thread is about was actually narrower than simply "recording police is illegal." This is a good opportunity to urge cp's who haven't yet, to read David Brin's "Transparent Society." It's pie in the sky, but essentially advocates having cameras everywhere, so that anyone anywhere can tap into a video feed. -- Greg On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 07:16:36PM -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: > > Sorry Choate, didn't catch your "analysis" in time. ;) > > Your subj line is descriptive, but somewhat misleading. > > ~Aimee > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > > Behalf Of Jim Choate > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:47 PM > > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; hell at einstein.ssz.com > > Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > > > > > > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/14/0834224.shtml From Best231 at porn.com Sat Jul 14 14:59:55 2001 From: Best231 at porn.com (Best231 at porn.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:59:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: You Have Been Sent The Best Porn On The Net!!! Message-ID: <20010714215955.E4608B9CDF@server-007.to.com> Below is the result of your feedback form. 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Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM as long as I include a valid return address and the way to be removed. From freematt at coil.com Sun Jul 15 06:01:06 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:01:06 -0400 Subject: Free Media Tool Kit for Anti-Drug Action Message-ID: [Note from Matthew Gaylor: I recently received my copy of this slickly produced kit. The Feds must have spent a fortune developing it. It includes a CD-Rom with a textbook quality notebook with all sorts of useful information on how to deal with the media and what makes effective advertising for children, families and adults. It even includes camera ready artwork and ads. I plan to use the resources offered in my reverse engineering program. How useful to fight the war on drugs using material developed to fight the war on drugs. I recommend that everyone who reads this order their free, postage paid copy. 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You can also order the Tool Kit online at: http://www.mediacampaign.org/order/webordertoolkit.asp. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Jul 15 12:10:51 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:10:51 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <7e45ac1b22efadeed1ac5b1e27d97411@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <3B51884B.8606.87F411@localhost> -- > > there are plenty of SDS and > > Black Panthers running around today, the vast majority > > never went to jail. Faustine: > Of course they didn't. The bottom line is that their organizations were > torn apart by operations conducted against them, This is incorrect. The black panthers were torn apart because they murdered dissidents, and "dissidents" came to include anyone who wondered if Newton was snorting too much of the Black Panther funds. The same is true to a greater or lesser extent of most of the other communist armed communist organizations. The first target of those arms was always themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, though this was most dramatic and bloody in the case of the Black Panthers. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG rax/LEmSAJ/1lDsJD0WyRchBfAwYHpZx8LGyw1ay 4ghrBKwfqgrbykcDznKbpLIJbRBHeXvXWKT6ViOsc From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Jul 15 13:11:46 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:11:46 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: <1db370c7a42928f2ad5ff5def690f0ab@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <3B519692.3316.BFB82E@localhost> -- On 12 Jul 2001, at 11:30, A. Melon wrote: > Which brings this to mind again. This and the Where to go > thread. So where and what are the disenfranchised to go and do? > I'm a middle aged IT professional, recently downsized from a > very good job. I also have a felony conviction for selling pot > back in the 60's -- big deal, eh? Well it is now -- I've been > turned down for three jobs because they did a background check. > I no longer even bother to apply if they mention background > or drug checks -- which rules out one hell of a lot of places > these days and it's on the increase. I never had a background > check before this for any job. I have never had a background check until after I was hired at my current job. After I had been hired for a long time, suddenly they did background checks on everyone, though surely by then they knew everyone well enough to know that none of us were likely to run amuk and start shooting coworkers. Suddenly background checks are in. I do not know why. Guess I should ask. --digsig James A. 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On Sun, 15 Jul 2001, David Lojovik wrote: > Return-Path: > Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) > by cliff.mfn.org (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f6FI3KH11796 > for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:03:20 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from cypherpunks-errors at toad.com) > Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16704 > for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:47:30 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from cr310312-a (CacheFlowServer@[195.239.30.140]) by toad.com > (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16693 for ; Sun, > 15 Jul 2001 10:47:13 -0700 (PDT) > Message-Id: <200107151747.KAA16693 at toad.com> > From: David Lojovik > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Web Hosting for your site > Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:38:35 +0400 > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; > boundary="bcbb7384-7908-11d5-91eb-0080c6f0add3" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Precedence: bulk > > http://www.develophost.com :: Web Hosting starting from 3.95$ per month ... > > It doesn't matter if you're an skilled webmaster or > you are just setting up your first website, > DevelopHost will always help you. We provide superior > support, answering your questions and dealing with > your problems quickly and in a friendly manner. > > Our servers are located in a highly-secured Data Center > that is monitored 24 hours, 7 days a week for any problems > that may cause an interruption in service. > > If for any reason during your first 30 days of hosting you > are unsatisfied with our service we will refund all your > fees, no problems about it. > > http://www.develophost.com > David Lojovik > Email: support at develophost.com > Experience the Power of Web Hosting Solutions - DevelopHost.com > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Jul 15 14:35:22 2001 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 14:35:22 -0700 Subject: Web Hosting for your site In-Reply-To: <200107151747.KAA16693@toad.com> Message-ID: <3B51AA2A.12332.4331D56@localhost> On 15 Jul 2001, at 13:38, David Lojovik wrote: http://www.develophost.com :: Web Hosting starting from 3.95$ per month ... It doesn't matter if you're an skilled webmaster or you are just setting up your first website, DevelopHost will always help you. We provide superior support, answering your questions and dealing with your problems quickly and in a friendly manner. Our servers are located in a highly-secured Data Center that is monitored 24 hours, 7 days a week for any problems that may cause an interruption in service. If for any reason during your first 30 days of hosting you are unsatisfied with our service we will refund all your fees, no problems about it. http://www.develophost.com David Lojovik Email: support at develophost.com Experience the Power of Web Hosting Solutions - DevelopHost.com From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Jul 15 14:13:48 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <3B51884B.8606.87F411@localhost> References: <3B51884B.8606.87F411@localhost> Message-ID: Jim wrote: -- >> > there are plenty of SDS and >> > Black Panthers running around today, the vast majority >> > never went to jail. > > Faustine: >> Of course they didn't. The bottom line is that their organizations >> were torn apart by operations conducted against them, > > This is incorrect. The black panthers were torn apart because they > murdered dissidents, and "dissidents" came to include anyone who > wondered if Newton was snorting too much of the Black Panther funds. > > The same is true to a greater or lesser extent of most of the other > communist armed communist organizations. The first target of those > arms was always themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, though this > was most dramatic and bloody in the case of the Black Panthers. The FBI explioted this mindset to the hilt--COINTELPRO kept them all twitching like galvanic frogs. The merest stimulus and they exploded right on cue. Getting your enemies to destroy themselves, what a strategy. The whole thing is a depressing reminder of what happens when hot-headed idealism faces off against cold-blooded realism. Call me a fence sitter, but there's got to be another way. Here's a great link, if youre interested: The COINTELPRO Papers Documents from the FBI's Secret Wars Against Dissent in the United States by Ward Churchill & Jim Vander Wall South End Press ISBN 0-89608-359-4 http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointel.htm ~Faustine. From dauljio at yahoo.com Sun Jul 15 04:44:39 2001 From: dauljio at yahoo.com (Dauljio) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:14:39 +0530 Subject: TRANSLATE Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010715171346.00aace00@202.54.6.50> could somebody translate this for me Promozione Informativa ex art. 10 della legge 675/96 sul trattamento dei dati personali. La dopshop ha raccolto il suo indirizzo e-mail da fonte pubblica per trattarlo a scopo promozionale,comunque nel rispetto della legge 675/96 e quindi nelle misure di sicurezza e riservatezza dalla stessa previste.Secondo quanto previsto dall'art. 13 della legge,potete richiederne la cancellazione rispondendo a questa e-mail con ogg. reccessione _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rolick571 at duq.edu Sun Jul 15 14:21:27 2001 From: rolick571 at duq.edu (coldfire) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mass. bumper sticker: "Police Surveillance System On Board" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i have a similar story involving myself, suspected drug activity, and blue hair ... to skip a lot of the details .. the officer claimed to have gotten a strong smell of marijuana from m car as i drove past him (he was on foot) approximately 15 feet away. yeah .. after being pulled over and basically being told that i was definitely an offender .. several other officers showed up in another patrol car and surrounded my car with their hands on their pistols as if we were going to pull out the bazookas we had tucked under out seats. well, i said i'd skip the details .. not a single person in my car smoked weed and come to think of it .. weed has never been so much as transported in my car. damn blue haired kids. coldie From gqteam at yahoo.com Sun Jul 15 09:04:42 2001 From: gqteam at yahoo.com (Bernt Lovenberg) Date: 15 Jul 2001 18:04:42 +0200 Subject: You are Invited! Message-ID: <200107151600.JAA13385@toad.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 24793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Jul 15 15:05:02 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Libertarian links Message-ID: <200107152205.SAA01713@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Mary Lou Seymour # Liberty Activists # http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1797 Ooo, lots of interesting links, including Scott McDonald. I think I sent him $100 a couple years ago. Poor guy. Whups, the (second) link for "I am not a number" yields: http://www.laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=cu7878&aid=LA # # Error Occurred While Processing Request # # Error Diagnostic Information # # ODBC Error Code = S1000 (General error) # # [INTERSOLV][ODBC dBase driver]Access to file denied # '/export/home81/lfb/htdocs/sql/new_Categories_Table.DBF'. # # Data Source = "lfb-odbc" # # SQL = "SELECT C.* FROM new_Categories_Table C # WHERE C.parent IN ('1','3','4','5') ORDER BY C.cid" # # The error occurred while processing an element with a # general identifier of (CFQUERY), occupying document # position (37:1) to (37:114). ---- A book on buying and selling gold? What did you do for the Y2K scare? ;-) From cygne2 at mindspring.com Sun Jul 15 15:10:38 2001 From: cygne2 at mindspring.com (cygne2 at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:10:38 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: mailing list Message-ID: <3B5214DE.000005.23563@ibm2901> Please add me to your mailing list. Thanks. FAC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1259 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Jul 15 18:33:49 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:33:49 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: References: <3B51884B.8606.87F411@localhost> Message-ID: <3B51E20D.28725.1E68F9D@localhost> -- > > > > there are plenty of SDS and > > > > Black Panthers running around today, the vast majority never > > > > went to jail. Faustine: > >> Of course they didn't. The bottom line is that their > >> organizations were torn apart by operations conducted against > >> them, James A. Donald: > > This is incorrect. The black panthers were torn apart because > > they murdered dissidents, and "dissidents" came to include anyone > > who wondered if Newton was snorting too much of the Black Panther > > funds. The same is true to a greater or lesser extent of most of > > the other armed communist organizations. The first target of > > those arms was always themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, > > though this was most dramatic and bloody in the case of the Black > > Panthers. Faustine: > The FBI explioted this mindset to the hilt--COINTELPRO kept them all > twitching like galvanic frogs. To blame COINTELPRO for radical leftist internal violence is as silly as blaming Pol Pot and the Ukraine famine on the CIA. If those radicals were being murdered by the feds, the radical left would have been eager to have them investigated, instead of closing their eyes and looking the other way, and suddenly dropping vanished radicals down the memory hatch. The way we all reacted shows that we all knew full well who was doing it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Nj6L7D4+iqIYLrqePScZ1+RnIYBVbTSDAfIfAvK8 4jz/6Wo05VLuzxtUNNceNbo+ZirjyFUgSU4e1dUt5 From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sun Jul 15 20:27:30 2001 From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:27:30 -0700 Subject: Web Hosting for your site In-Reply-To: <200107151747.KAA16693@toad.com> Message-ID: <3B51FCB2.31459.5758D52@localhost> On 15 Jul 2001, at 13:38, David Lojovik wrote: http://www.develophost.com :: Web Hosting starting from 3.95$ per month ... It doesn't matter if you're an skilled webmaster or you are just setting up your first website, DevelopHost will always help you. We provide superior support, answering your questions and dealing with your problems quickly and in a friendly manner. Our servers are located in a highly-secured Data Center that is monitored 24 hours, 7 days a week for any problems that may cause an interruption in service. If for any reason during your first 30 days of hosting you are unsatisfied with our service we will refund all your fees, no problems about it. http://www.develophost.com David Lojovik Email: support at develophost.com Experience the Power of Web Hosting Solutions - DevelopHost.com From declan at well.com Sun Jul 15 18:40:53 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:40:53 -0400 Subject: violent antitax protest/riot in US In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010714111727.008fda10@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 11:17:27AM -0700 References: <3.0.6.32.20010714111727.008fda10@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20010715214053.A19454@cluebot.com> This is amazing. If anything like this was even attempted in DC, we'd have dozens of federal agencies, and perhaps armed troops, converging on the U.S. Capitol. -Declan On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 11:17:27AM -0700, David Honig wrote: > Friday July 13 6:33 AM ET > > Anti-Tax Protests at Tenn. Capitol > > By KARIN MILLER, Associated Press Writer > > NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Protesters hurled rocks through Capitol > windows, chanted ``no new tax!'' and banged on the locked doors of > the Senate chamber where Tennessee lawmakers were debating the > creation of a state income tax. > > The tax plan had died before the protesters arrived Thursday, but when > word spread that lawmakers had passed a no-tax budget, cheers went > up among the hundreds of protesters. > > ``The people are passionate when they say, 'no income tax','' said > Steve Gill, a Nashville radio talk show host who had called on tax > opponents to swarm the Capitol. > > Anti-tax protests have been frequent the past three years as lawmakers > considered implementing a state income tax, but the protests had > always been peaceful - until Thursday. > > Within hours of hearing that the Legislature was considering a > last-minute income tax plan, protesters swarmed into the area, honking > car horns, waving signs reading ``Tax Revolt!'' and bringing traffic > outside the Capitol to a standstill. > > The rock-throwers busted several windows, including one in the > governor's office. State troopers escorted lawmakers in the halls and > locked the doors to the Capitol. One state employee trying to lock a > side door was injured as the weight of the crowd pushed against him. > > No arrests were made and no other injuries were reported. > > ``I appreciate the right of all Americans to free speech and peaceful > protest. I do not, however, approve of those who advocate violence > and I regret that occurred at the Capitol,'' Gov. Don Sundquist said in > a statement. > > Sundquist has said he would veto any budget that didn't include a new > revenue plan. > > The budget the Legislature passed doesn't include the 3.5 percent > income tax lawmakers had discussed. It instead cuts $339 million from > the governor's $19.9 billion spending plan, requires state agencies to > save an additional $100 million, and uses $560 million in tobacco > settlement money - four years worth - to balance the budget. > > Sundquist wouldn't say if he would sign it. > > Tennessee is one of nine states without a broad-based income tax, but > it has one of the highest sales tax rates at 6 percent, with local > governments adding up to 2.75 percent. > > Sen. Bob Rochelle, a Democratic proponent of a state income tax, had > argued that the sales tax could be reduced if an income tax was > implemented. ``The day will come when we won't mistreat our citizens > any more with that tax,'' he said. > > Republican Sen. David Fowler, an opponent of the income tax, said > negotiations had already broken down by the time most of the > protesters arrived. > > One proposal discussed would have put plans for an income tax to a > statewide vote. Fowler said the protest may have ``effectively killed'' > that as an option. > > ``I don't know if they knew that's what they were doing, but that's what > they were doing,'' Fowler said. > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010713/us/tennessee_capitol_protest_8.html From declan at well.com Sun Jul 15 18:44:19 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:44:19 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 11:13:07PM -0400 References: <3B50D9EE.DA65ECA3@ssz.com> <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20010715214419.C19454@cluebot.com> I'm only catching up on this conversation now, but coincidentally, I asked the Feds during a "press conference" at Defcon what they'd think about such a project. The federal agents who showed up were anything but receptive at my suggestion that all interviews and correspondence be recorded via videocam etc. and released after the trial was over, at the latest. Hah. -Declan On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 11:13:07PM -0400, Greg Newby wrote: > I followed a link in the /. thread to http://policeabuse.com , > highly recommended. They track episodes of police abuse, and > do some quality-control on the procedures police departments > to handle (or avoid) complaints. > > They contend that taping police (video and/or audio) is legal in most > states, in most circumstances. An alleged lawyer posted > to the /. discussion, saying the Mass. story the thread > is about was actually narrower than simply "recording > police is illegal." > > This is a good opportunity to urge cp's who haven't yet, > to read David Brin's "Transparent Society." It's pie in the > sky, but essentially advocates having cameras everywhere, so > that anyone anywhere can tap into a video feed. > > -- Greg > > > On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 07:16:36PM -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: > > > > Sorry Choate, didn't catch your "analysis" in time. ;) > > > > Your subj line is descriptive, but somewhat misleading. > > > > ~Aimee > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > > > Behalf Of Jim Choate > > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:47 PM > > > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; hell at einstein.ssz.com > > > Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > > > > > > > > > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/14/0834224.shtml From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Jul 15 19:22:17 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace Message-ID: <200107160222.WAA15374@www6.aa.psiweb.com> jamesd at echeque.com # # If those radicals were being murdered by the feds, the radical # left would have been eager to have them investigated, instead # of closing their eyes and looking the other way, and suddenly # dropping vanished radicals down the memory hatch. Being subject to: o illegal "Echelon" monitoring o murderous attempts on the organization o a "grand scale" of FBI interference with civil rights orgs o FBI aiding false imprisonment ...doesn't exactly make for a peaceful democratic process. ---- : The Puzzle Palace : Inside the National Security Agency, : America's most secret intelligence organization : Author James Bamford, 1983 revision, ISBN 0-14-00.6748-5 # # P317: 1962. Now, for the first time, NSA had begun turning its massive ear # inward toward its own citizens. With no laws or legislative charter to # block its path, the ear continued to turn. # # # P319: The Secret Service, the CIA, the FBI and the DIA submitted entries # for the NSA's watch list. # # The names on the various watch lists ranged from members of radical political # groups to celebrities to ordinary citizens involved in protest against their # government. # # Included were such well-known figures as Jane Fonda, Joan Baez, Dr. Benjamin # Spock, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the Reverand Ralph Abernathy, Black # Panther leader Eldridge Cleaver, and Chicago Seven defendants Abbie Hoffman # and David T. Dellinger. * "The Rise of the Computer State", David Burnham, 1984 * * p128: Federal authorities were concerned that foreign governments MIGHT * try to influence civil rights leaders in the United States. The list * of Americans monitored ballooned as political groups, celebrities and * ordinary citizens were added to the 'watch lists'. The NSA surveillance * was illegal and was instantly stopped [years later] when it appeared * that Congress might learn about the eavesdropping. * Main Justice, by Jim McGee and Brian Duffy, 1996, ISBN 0-684-81135-9 * * The FBI had been spying on members of the civil rights movement * to discredit Martin Luther King and destroy the civil rights * movement, government files showed. There had been burglaries * and illegal wiretapping on a grand scale. At the same time Hoover was in power and developed the "Security Portfolio" and attacked civil rights movements in the United States, a Black Panther named Elmer "Geronimo" Pratt was framed for a murder he didn't commit by the FBI. * "Above the Law", by David Burnham, ISBN 0-684-80699-1, 1996 * * At 4:00 A.M. on December 4, 1969, for example, a special fourteen-man * squad of Chicago police officers raided a house used by the Black * Panther Party. During the shoot-first-ask-questions-later raid, police * fired at least ninety-eight rounds into the apartment. Illinois chairman * Fred Hampton and Peoria chairman Mark Clark were killed. * * An FBI informant gave the bureau specific information about where * Hampton was probably sleeping, and a detailed floor plan of the house * which the special squad used during its raid. * * Thirteen years later, in November 1982, District Court Judge John F. * Grady determined that there was sufficient evidence of an FBI-led * conspiracy to deprive the Panthers of their civil rights, and awarded * the plaintiffs $1.85 million in damages. : 5/30/97 MSNBC : : After more than a quarter of a century in prison, a Black Panther : activist has won the right to a new trial. A judge ruled there had : been prosecutorial misconduct. The judge overturned the conviction : when it was disclosed the government prosecutors withheld critical : evidence: : : o They never said the informer was working with and paid by : the FBI. : : o A former FBI agent also agrees with his alibi: that he was : in the Black Panther HQ at the time of the murder. That the : FBI knew this because they were monitoring the HQ. : : o And the jury never knew the eyewitness, who has since died, : had misidentified people in other cases. : : He has been turned down for parole 16 times, and had been in prison : longer than most murderers. : : : 6/10/97 MSNBC: Mr. Pratt has been freed over the U.S. Attorney's : objections. His first minutes of freedom were spent with his : 94-year-old mother. : : Court TV: : : Judge Dickey overturned the conviction last month, ruling that : prosecutors failed to tell the defense that the key witness against : Pratt was an infiltrator and paid informant for the FBI and police. : *** This primary "witness" had claimed Pratt confessed!!! *** : : "It's madness in there," Pratt said after walking out of jail : on $25,000 bail. "You have political prisoners on top of political : prisoners. I'm only one of a great many that should be exposed, : should be addressed." : : The same judge who presided over Pratt's original trial set him free. : Johnny Cochran said Pratt spent the first eight years of his sentence : in solitary confinement. That's a long time to sit in jail just because the FBI didn't want to reveal its monitoring operations, isn't it? 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Sign up FREE at: http://www.MintMail.com/?m=665373 AtoZ kl From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 05:06:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 05:06:50 -0700 Subject: Everyone gets to lobby Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010716050611.02055460@mail.well.com> Legislative Day == Lobby your members of Congress for pork, regulatory hurdles for competitors, etc. LOBBYING Professional Lawn Care Assn. of America (PLCAA) Fifth annual Renewal and Remembrance Project and Legislative Day activities, July 16-17. Highlights: 6:45 a.m. - Environmental Enhancement Program, Arlington National Cemetery and Old Congressional Cemetery, 1801 E St., SE 8 a.m. - Rep. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., guest speaker, and Bill Hoopes, president-elect, dedication of renovated garden site, Arlington National Cemetery 3:30 p.m. - Day on the Hill briefing 5 p.m. - Charlie Cook, Cook and Co., political analyst, reception/dinner speaker Location: Holiday Inn Capitol, 550 C St., SW. Contact: Karen Weber, 800-458-3466, or http://www.plcaa.org From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 05:52:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 05:52:03 -0700 Subject: FC: Massachusetts high court rules against man who taped abusive cops Message-ID: This is a fascinating case. The majority said that unless they ruled as they did, "every police encounter would be available for secret recording." (As if anything was wrong with that.) Welcome to the latest conflict between technology and the law. Technology will win this footrace, at least in the long run. As recording devices fall in price and size, they'll become increasingly commonplace. Perhaps a next-generation privacy company will build a device that streams its recording to a remote site wirelessly, so even if it's smashed by police or lawbreakers, its data will survive. Or perhaps a next-generation justicefiles.org will allow victims of police brutality to anonymously post their recordings of police misconduct next to other information about that particular law enforcement officer. At Defcon this weekend, I asked a group of four or five law enforcement officials what they thought about the idea of having shouldercams that they'd be required to wear when they interrogate suspects or conduct interviews or perform other official duties. The recordings would be released after five years or when the trial was over and appeals exhausted. Needless to say, they weren't very receptive to the idea. -Declan ********* From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 06:14:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 06:14:43 -0700 Subject: Congress in action: Hearing on "media violence" planned Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010716061400.02064e30@mail.well.com> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Ken Johnson or Jon Tripp Monday, July 16, 2001 202-225-5735 UPTON ANNOUNCES HEARING ON MEDIA VIOLENCE WASHINGTON (July 16) - Rep. Fred Upton (R-MI), Chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet, today announced a hearing on media violence for this Friday (July 20, 2001) at 9:30 a.m. in room 2123 of the Rayburn House Office Building. The hearing is entitled: "An Examination of the Entertainment Industry's Efforts to Curb Children's Exposure to Violent Content." A witness list has not been determined. From 1support at microsoft.com Mon Jul 16 07:21:05 2001 From: 1support at microsoft.com (1support at microsoft.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:21:05 Subject: Information You Requested from Microsoft.com Message-ID: NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS E-MAIL. THIS E-MAIL IS NOT MONITORED. Welcome to Microsoft Online ID secure Internet environment! Below is your membership information. Please keep this confirmation mail as a record of your password. Consider this information confidential and treat accordingly. Your Microsoft Online ID Password is: cypherpunks A Microsoft Online ID provides access to various Microsoft secured programs. Please check the Frequently Asked Questions and/or Help page of the program you are accessing for questions. Sincerely, Microsoft Online ID Administrator From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 16 05:48:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:48:46 -0500 Subject: Floridans Protest Street Cameras Message-ID: <3B52E2AE.58EEDB25@ssz.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010715/aponline173031_000.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 16 07:56:08 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:56:08 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: References: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010716075608.009003f0@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:20 PM 7/16/01 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Greg Newby wrote: > > Mann's "shooting back" is rapidly >getting outlawed. Heh, some of Mann's work involves pseudo-cameras (or dark acrylic plates on your shirt, or leds under domes on your backback), so can we look forward to laws against *fake* recording? On the other hand, perhaps its time to write "you may be recorded" on your driver's license, registration/insurance, or drivers's side door frame. A bumper sticker would serve two purposes, hmm... From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Jul 16 08:32:51 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:32:51 -0700 Subject: Meatspace In-Reply-To: <200107160222.WAA15374@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3B52A6B3.5925.37A7CA@localhost> -- jamesd at echeque.com > > If those radicals were being murdered by the feds, the radical > > left would have been eager to have them investigated, instead of > > closing their eyes and looking the other way, and suddenly > > dropping vanished radicals down the memory hatch. On 15 Jul 2001, at 22:22, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Being subject to: > > o illegal "Echelon" monitoring > o murderous attempts on the organization > o a "grand scale" of FBI interference with civil rights orgs > o FBI aiding false imprisonment > > ...doesn't exactly make for a peaceful democratic process. The blank panthers and the rest were opposed to the bourgeois democratic process. They did not require any pressure from the spooks to persuade them to deviate from it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG TWVsSmXlKGPgP5psBmekM8uQU/SiJ1zqTAZkuMPA 45fu5MBEuiwlzf2k7dIvi6XLnZh9ypkkByC7bJBkv From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 06:20:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:20:36 -0400 Subject: Recording cops, technology vs. the law, and Mass. court decision Message-ID: <20010716092036.B11289@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 16 07:51:22 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 10:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal Message-ID: <200107161451.KAA17553@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Eugene Leitl wrote: # # What we're getting (surprise, surprise) is that recording of # the public is allright but not recording *by* the public. Mann's # "shooting back" is rapidly getting outlawed. I'm not one to make apologies for this sort of thing, and perhaps I skimmed the article too fast, but... Isn't the ruling not specific to recording the police, but that MA has a two-party recording rule? Everyone has the same standard of "protection". From die at die.com Mon Jul 16 08:04:57 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:04:57 -0400 Subject: [rdcrisp@earthlink.net: the case of the forwarded email] Message-ID: <20010716110457.A16516@die.com> ----- Forwarded message from Richard Crisp ----- http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/07/13/museum_security_network/index.html The case of the forwarded e-mail Online allegations of Nazi-looted art inspire a suit that could test the limits of Internet libel law. - - - - - - - - - - - - By Jori Finkel July 13, 2001 | Tax attorney Ellen Batzel regrets the day she hired Bob Smith to work on her Asheville, N.C., home. "I hired him to be a handyman," she says. "I wanted someone to repaint and refinish the floors: odd jobs." At first, that's what she got: Smith did the floors in a few weeks in July 1999. But soon their relationship soured, leading first to a small-claims lawsuit over payment for the repairs, and ultimately to a multimillion dollar federal lawsuit that involves charges of Nazi war looting -- and raises fundamental questions about Internet libel law In an act that has legal repercussions today, Smith (who could not be reached for comment for this story, despite extensive efforts to reach him by phone and e-mail) apparently fired off an e-mail to Ton Cremers, the solo operator of the Museum Security Network, a Netherlands-based non-profit that tracks news of art theft, looting and forgery. Cremers' e-mail newsletter reaches about 1,000 readers worldwide -- a small but hardcore group of museum security professionals, curators, art historians, art dealers, art collectors, lawyers, law enforcement officials and journalists. In the e-mail, dated Sept. 8, 1999, Smith identified himself as a building contractor in Asheville, and Batzel as his client. The e-mail then linked Batzel to the Nazis. "[Batzel] bragged to me about being the grand daughter of 'one of Adolph Hitler's right-hand men.' At the time I was concentrating on performing my tasks, but upon reflection, I believe she said she was the descendant of Heinrich Himmler," it alleged, adding, "Ellen Batzel has hundreds of older European paintings hanging on her walls, all with heavy carved wooden frames. She told me she inherited them. I believe these paintings were looted during WWII and are the rightful legacy of the Jewish people." The e-mail included Batzel's address and Smith's phone number, information that Cremers left intact when he distributed the e-mail to Museum Security Network subscribers on Sept. 9. Several readers, outraged by the posting, shot off critical e-mails to Cremers. He promptly published them, beginning on Sept. 11 with a posting from Christopher Atkins, a media licensing coordinator at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston: "Mr. Smith is completely out of line for suggesting that some woman with old paintings in her home has amassed a collection of paintings from Nazi war booty. His claims, evidence and assumptions were ridiculous, and he was very disrespectful of this woman's privacy in offering this woman's address." Atkins concluded by admonishing Cremers: "I think it was wrong for you to take this man's story seriously. Please respond." Cremers replied in the same newsletter (and soon struck Batzel's address from the archived version of the e-mail). "I do share your opinion about the quite odd contents of this message," he wrote. "However, I am convinced that most of our subscribers have enough common sense to see the difference between sane and insane... In this case I have not chosen to behave as a censor. I hate to do that anyway. I must admit that my decision to forward Mr. Smith's message may have been wrong. What is worse: forwarding messages with strange contents or censor[ing] messages?" Another Museum Security Network reader, Earl Merkel, warned Cremers that he could be sued for libel. Merkel criticized Cremers for jeopardizing the credibility of the forum "by blithely passing along what are, without dispute, unsubstantiated rumors. You may also risk legal consequences, if your act of 'publishing' this woman's name and address causes her damage. By no definition is she a 'public figure' who can usually be libeled with impunity as long as no 'malice' can be proven. At the very least, you owe this woman an apology; at worst, you may end up owing her much of what you personally own." Merkel's warning was prophetic. Though Batzel says she and Smith eventually settled their dispute over the home repairs (she says she gave Smith $250, a ladder and some halogen lamps), the e-mail's allegations have led to a multimillion-dollar lawsuit. Batzel, who now lives in Los Angeles, is suing both Smith and Cremers in federal court for $10 million in defamation, invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress. And while the suit against Smith is relatively conventional, the one against Cremers -- which could reach court by the end of this year -- tests the cutting edge of Internet legislation. Should a Web site based in the Netherlands be subject to the laws of every country in which it has readers? Should the landmark 1996 Telecommunications Act, which protects Internet Service Providers like AOL from libel in the case of third-party postings, also cover an e-mail newsletter that publishes unedited letters and press clippings? And what future is there for a one-man publishing operation that may have just enough resources to make editorial judgments, and errors of judgment, but too few for legal safeguards like fact-checking? Batzel did not learn about the e-mail until four months after it was posted, but she says that the false statements damaged her career. According to her complaint, filed in September, 2000, Batzel has a Nazi-free lineage and an art collection acquired from "reputable dealers," but suffered from Smith's allegations to the contrary. She "lost as clients one prominent Jewish family" and was the victim of a letter-writing campaign to have her disbarred. (The campaign was unsuccessful and its author has not been identified.) "I had to sell my home in Asheville," says Batzel from Los Angeles. "Once this came out, I was afraid to be there. As someone in the district attorney's office told me: If the real neo-Nazis find you, we'll never find your body; if the wannabe neo-Nazis find you, we will find your body." Or, as Batzel's attorney Howard Fredman puts it, "Before taking this case I had to ask myself: Has my client really been hurt? Is this all going to go away if we just ignore it? Then she showed me the letters seeking to have her disbarred. One traditional reason for defamation suits is to clear your reputation." While Fredman seeks to clear his client's name, Stephen Newman of Latham and Watkins in Los Angeles, which represents Cremers on a pro bono basis, is trying to salvage his client's career. Cremers, who says he "does not make a penny" from the Museum Security Network, recently lost his salaried job as the security manager for the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. He was asked to leave in March, after 13 years of service. As Cremers recounted over the phone, in an energetic Dutch accent, "The museum director reacted very sympathetically when I first informed him about the possibility of libel, but the plaintiff has been harassing the museum, sending them letters, trying to involve them in the lawsuit. It's very intimidating." Batzel's attorney admits that his team, "under the impression that the Rijksmuseum was formally affiliated with and supported the Museum Security Network," contacted the Amsterdam museum at one point. But he stresses that the museum was not named in the suit. Cremers also says that cultural differences cloud the issue. "In our country we are not used to this sort of litigation. If this happened in the Netherlands, I don't think any court would accept the case. But if they did, I might be asked to apologize and fined $2." Cremers and his attorney have asked that the case be dismissed on four grounds, three of which have been denied. One argued, unsuccessfully, that Cremers, a citizen of the Netherlands with no real business in California, rests far outside the court's jurisdiction. Another failed attempt at dismissal asserted inconvenience of forum. The third, also denied by the judge, identified Cremers as an Internet service provider, which under the 1996 Telecommunications Act would protect him from libelous statements made by third-party "content providers" using his service. The final motion, and the only one still pending, uses a California free speech act known as "anti-SLAPP" to try to force the plaintiff to produce more evidence. A ruling is expected by August. If the suit does reach court, some pretrial arguments are likely to be revisited. First, there's the question of location: are U.S. libel laws applicable to an e-mail newsletter that's generated in the Netherlands but that reaches some U.S. readers? And, for that matter, are they enforceable? Then there's the issue of retraction, a common mitigator in defamation cases. After posting Smith's e-mail, did Cremers make a sufficient retraction and apology? But what really has the attorneys talking is a single point of law: whether the Museum Security Network qualifies as an Internet service provider, which would give it immunity from libel under the 1996 Telecommunications Act. A key precedent in this issue is Zeran vs. AOL, 1997. In a chat room operated by America Online, an unidentified visitor had posted a prank note identifying Kenneth Zeran as a seller of "Oklahoma City Bombing" T-shirts. After being barraged by angry phone calls, Zeran sued. AOL won, on the grounds that the allegedly libelous material was posted by a third party. Newman cites the ruling when discussing Batzel's suit against Cremers. "Even though AOL is a classic ISP in terms of connecting you to the Internet," he says, "it does a lot more: maintaining forums and channels. In this particular case, AOL had stepped out of the role of being pure ISP provider, but the court still applied statutory immunity." Newman completes the analogy by saying that the Museum Security Network too represents an "open forum for information" that deserves protection under the law. But Batzel's lawyer sees things differently. "My reading of the case is that if all you do is provide a bulletin board, it's unlikely that there's any liability," says Fredman. "On the other hand, if you are carefully deciding what goes on the newsletter and adding headlines and comments, there is no exoneration of responsibility." In other words, both sides recognize the legal distinction between a "content provider" (a publisher which is liable for content) and an "ISP" (a platform for third-party publishing which, so far, anyway, is not). The question is: Which category does the Museum Security Network fall into? Newman argues that the Museum Security Network qualifies as an ISP for legal purposes because it offers a neutral forum for the third-party exchange of news and information. Fredman counters that the Network is more of a content provider, since Cremers has a hand in the selection process and posts an occasional moderator's note. Along with testing the boundaries of Internet case law, this issue strikes at the heart of the Museum Security Network's enterprise. If Fredman is right, Cremers' involvement with the newsletter will leave him vulnerable in a court of law. But it's precisely this human touch that readers appreciate. Cremers was honored by the Smithsonian this year for launching the site; his involvement in the newsletter clearly adds value over the automatic news alert that, say, a software program could generate. Even Cremers' loudest critics, who were quick to question his publishing of Smith's letter, sound supportive. When contacted for this story, Atkins at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston said he used to read the Museum Security Network for "articles on art sales, art theft, art smuggling, art forgeries, etc. from all over the world. ... As an added bonus, I found that there was a lot of contribution from a cast of regular characters and others who happened upon the site for professional advice and suggestions. I thought that it was a great site and a friendly atmosphere." Merkel, a partner in a Chicago public relations firm who just sold a novel on Nazi-looted art to Penguin, agrees. While he reiterates his warning to the Museum Security Network about "serving as 'cop on the beat,'" he also praises the newsletter as "a valuable tool, particularly for helping alert museum security professionals to the ongoing news of art thefts -- more occur than you might think." Cremers himself received similar endorsements this March, when he asked his readers for feedback on the service. He was overwhelmed by the response: "Within two days, I heard from 176 subscribers from all over the world, from UNESCO to ICOM (International Council of Museums) in Paris," he says. Almost all comments were raves. Whether or not the endorsements help Cremers' case, they do underscore the ambitiousness, and vulnerability, of his project. The international black market for art and antiques is sprawling (recent estimates put it at $6 billion to $10 billion annually, almost as large as the legitimate art market), and tracking the stolen goods is no easy feat. A news bulletin about stolen art is the kind of service that the Internet in general, and the Museum Security Network in particular, was born to deliver. Now, saddled with the defamation lawsuit, the Museum Security Network's strengths have become liabilities. Cremers' involvement in the site could prove his Achilles' heel, suggesting that an automated service is safer. Likewise, the newsletter's international reach could pull the Netherlands citizen straight into U.S. federal court, suggesting that the Web venture would do better to keep its readership low and local. While the lawyers debate the definition of an ISP, the future of Cremers' newsletter -- and with it one model for online publishing -- hangs in the balance. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 16 08:05:56 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:05:56 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal Message-ID: Yes, this is correct. If you make a *sound* recording in this state, all the parties present have to consent (and, I think, consent). The issue is not that a recording was made, but that it was made secretly. No such limitation exists on video recordings. [FWIW, my opinion is that a police officer interacting in his official capacity with a private citizen is *always" in public, and has no reasonable expectation of privacy. The court refused arguments based on this, saying that the law did not provide an 'in public' exception. I wonder: If you were being questioned by the police, and told them you did NOT consent to being recorded, would they then be required to stop recording?] Here's the relevant state law: [start quote] Mass. Ann. Laws ch. 272 , ' 99 (1999): It is a crime to record any conversation, whether oral or wire, without the consent of all parties in Massachusetts. The penalty for violating the law is a fine of up to $10,000 and a jail sentence of up to five years. [end quote] (http://www.rcfp.org/taping/ is a useful resource) Similar laws exist in California, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oregon, Pennsylvania and Washington. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: George at Orwellian.Org[SMTP:George at Orwellian.Org] > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 10:51 AM > To: A bomb named 'Mike' > Subject: Re: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > > Eugene Leitl wrote: > # > # What we're getting (surprise, surprise) is that recording of > # the public is allright but not recording *by* the public. Mann's > # "shooting back" is rapidly getting outlawed. > > I'm not one to make apologies for this sort of thing, > and perhaps I skimmed the article too fast, but... > > Isn't the ruling not specific to recording the police, > but that MA has a two-party recording rule? > > Everyone has the same standard of "protection". From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 16 08:08:06 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:08:06 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal Message-ID: In MA, the law is not just against 'secret recording'; the wording states that the "consent" of all parties must exist. (It does not state what constitutes consent). PT > ---------- > From: David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com] > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 10:56 AM > To: Eugene Leitl; Greg Newby > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > > At 04:20 PM 7/16/01 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > >On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Greg Newby wrote: > > > > Mann's "shooting back" is rapidly > >getting outlawed. > > Heh, some of Mann's work involves pseudo-cameras (or dark acrylic plates > on your shirt, or leds under domes on your backback), so can we look > forward > to laws against *fake* recording? > > On the other hand, perhaps its time to write "you may be recorded" on > your driver's license, registration/insurance, or drivers's side door > frame. > A bumper sticker would serve two purposes, hmm... From amaha at vsnl.net Mon Jul 16 09:15:42 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:15:42 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107161615.f6GGFgp20841@ak47.algebra.com> A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer. --Ralph Waldo Emerson ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 16 09:20:25 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:20:25 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <200107161451.KAA17553@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: > Isn't the ruling not specific to recording the police, > but that MA has a two-party recording rule? Correct. You might find it interesting that a number of states are considering (or revisiting) visual recording statutes. One form has a privacy expectation and exceptions for prisons, security and "law enforcement engaged in investigation." Some include public CCTV notice requirements and privacy expectations defined by location. TX HB 1040 @ http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlo/billsrch/subject/77r/S2361.HTM Others are closer to this Arizona bill, addressing visual surveillance in public places. This is a bare statute with no mention of a privacy interest. It exempts "professional journalists," seemingly defined so as to exclude independent journalists. Bills like this could be construed to restrain the use of visual surveillance at protests, and in other situations that involve disparate bargaining power and government overreaching. AZ HB 2470 @ http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/45leg/1r/bills/hb2470p.pdf Critics of contemporary surveillance law point out that we increasingly live in a world where THEY can spy on you, but you can't spy on THEM. Governments, business and employers are like bad parents that say, "*I* can do it -- but you can't." Children learn quickly.... ~Aimee From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 16 11:40:40 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:40:40 -0700 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <003a01c10e24$3c32d3a0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: Jon Beets wrote: > police should not have the same > standards as regular citizens > when performing their public > duties...They work for the people > and therefore should be accountable > for the people just like any boss > should be able to monitor their > employees.... Some of you know Hugh Daniel, he helps maintain the toad.com list. He makes it a point to stop and watch any interactions on the street between cops and civilians. If a cop asks him, "Hey, what are you looking at?" Hugh responds, "I'm just monitoring my employee's on-the-job performance." S a n d y From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 16 09:06:28 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace Message-ID: <200107161606.MAA29926@www9.aa.psiweb.com> jamesd at echeque.com wrote: # # The blank panthers and the rest were opposed to the # bourgeois democratic process. Is that some sort of excuse for the treatment I listed? From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 16 09:16:41 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Floridans Protest Street Cameras Message-ID: <200107161616.MAA21247@www7.aa.psiweb.com> The Tampa Bay Action Group http://www.sptimes.com/News/071501/TampaBay/Masked_protesters_fig.shtml The Tampa Bay Business Journal editorial http://tampabay.bcentral.com/tampabay/stories/2001/07/16/editorial2.html?t=printable From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 16 10:17:30 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:17:30 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW, Mass. has always been "funny" about electronic surveillance. State history is very interesting, and so is the law. (Early on, their police wouldn't wiretap, it was not "gentlemanly." Ahem.) Consider the traditionalist two-party states and ponder on the true nature of the historical parallels at the time the recording statutes were enacted. Ignore the legislative testimony and history, because it will just confuse you. ~Aimee From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 16 09:46:45 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal Message-ID: <200107161646.MAA18333@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Gurly cypherpunk Aimee wrote: # # Critics of contemporary surveillance law point out that we # increasingly live in a world where THEY can spy on you, but you # can't spy on THEM. Governments, business and employers are like # bad parents that say, "*I* can do it -- but you can't." # # Children learn quickly.... For those of you who don't watch much TV, there is a PA by the Partnership for a Drug-Free America in heavy rotation right now. The approximate wording: [various children saying] You searched my room... You invaded my privacy... I hated you... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's Orwellian, if I do say so myself. From xbcxbc at 21cn.com Sun Jul 15 22:15:26 2001 From: xbcxbc at 21cn.com (xbcxbc) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:15:26 +0800 (CST) Subject: SSL Proxy Message-ID: ------------------------------- 嚙踝蕭蛁嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙褊嚙踝蕭硐嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙 http://enterprise.21cn.com/game/ From xbcxbc at 21cn.com Sun Jul 15 22:16:22 2001 From: xbcxbc at 21cn.com (xbcxbc) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:16:22 +0800 (CST) Subject: ssl proxy Message-ID: ------------------------------- 嚙踝蕭蛁嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙褊嚙踝蕭硐嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙 http://enterprise.21cn.com/game/ From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Mon Jul 16 11:22:13 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:22:13 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal References: <200107161451.KAA17553@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <003a01c10e24$3c32d3a0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> The main point I saw in the dissent and which I totally agree on, is the police should not have the same standards as regular citizens when performing their public duties since they alone have the power to force citizens to do their will.. They work for the people and therefore should be accountable for the people just like any boss should be able to monitor their employees.... If you can't record their activities then how do you police the police? I am a firefighter and I would have no problem with being recorded while doing my sworn duty... When I am off work though that is a different matter... I will give you an example of how the police in my town were not able to police themselves. However this does not have anything to do with recording conversations.. I really don't remember how it was found out but 7 off duty police officers (I believe we only have about 15 or 20 in our town of 30,000 people) had stolen property from a residence which was quoted in the newspaper as "an abandoned building" in another county.. When the police chief was going to fire them all the City Council said no they would not allow it. It was later reported in the paper that the council was pressured by some of the remaining officers. In the end the property was returned and no charges were filed and all the officers returned to work after about 4 weeks off-duty with no pay. Then they petitioned afterwards and won to get their lost pay back... The only honest person in the whole situation was the Police Chief and he was not able to do anything.... How can you trust someone to enforce the laws they are breaking? Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "A bomb named 'Mike'" Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal > Eugene Leitl wrote: > # > # What we're getting (surprise, surprise) is that recording of > # the public is allright but not recording *by* the public. Mann's > # "shooting back" is rapidly getting outlawed. > > I'm not one to make apologies for this sort of thing, > and perhaps I skimmed the article too fast, but... > > Isn't the ruling not specific to recording the police, > but that MA has a two-party recording rule? > > Everyone has the same standard of "protection". > > From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 16 11:59:43 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:59:43 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <200107161646.MAA18333@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On an adult level, companies that adopt "1984ish" employee monitoring policies know not what they do.... On a societal level, we are responding to feelings of pervasive surveillance. "THEY" got it - we don't. Do we feel threatened? What we you do? ANSWER: http://www.indymedia.org. That is more than independent collaborative media...that is the beginnings of The Surreptitious Militia Press. I'm writing an article on "surveillactivism" this very week. Bartnicki "changed things." Watch the state legislatures next session. ~Aimee > Gurly cypherpunk Aimee wrote: > # > # Critics of contemporary surveillance law point out that we > # increasingly live in a world where THEY can spy on you, but you > # can't spy on THEM. Governments, business and employers are like > # bad parents that say, "*I* can do it -- but you can't." > # > # Children learn quickly.... > > For those of you who don't watch much TV, there is a PA > by the Partnership for a Drug-Free America in heavy > rotation right now. > > The approximate wording: > > [various children saying] > You searched my room... > > You invaded my privacy... > > I hated you... > > Thank you. > Thank you. > Thank you. > > > It's Orwellian, if I do say so myself. From stevet at sendon.net Mon Jul 16 07:11:59 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:11:59 +0000 Subject: Meatspace References: <200107160222.WAA15374@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <200107161508.LAA20496@divert.sendon.net> Quoting George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org): > : After more than a quarter of a century in prison, a Black Panther > : activist has won the right to a new trial. A judge ruled there had > : been prosecutorial misconduct. The judge overturned the conviction > : when it was disclosed the government prosecutors withheld critical > : evidence: > > That's a long time to sit in jail just because the FBI didn't want to > reveal its monitoring operations, isn't it? What a surprise that the interests of State Officials trumps due process. It's also a shocking surprise that the individuals employed by the various agencies collectively remained silent. "Broken eggs and all that." Regards, Steve -- ``The pressure of society forces upon us conduct which later we discover to be necessary for our happiness and for the preservation of a society whose survival is a condition of our happiness.'' -- H. J. Paton, ``Can Reason Be Practical?'' From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 11:26:46 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:26:46 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010716075608.009003f0@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:56:08AM -0700 References: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> <3.0.6.32.20010716075608.009003f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20010716142646.A17742@cluebot.com> I was thinking along the same lines as David. Stickers in windshields would work. I've also seen folks selling the "these are my rights, cop" cards. Seems to be a market opportunity to add another line to them. -Declan On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:56:08AM -0700, David Honig wrote: > At 04:20 PM 7/16/01 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > >On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Greg Newby wrote: > > > > Mann's "shooting back" is rapidly > >getting outlawed. > > Heh, some of Mann's work involves pseudo-cameras (or dark acrylic plates > on your shirt, or leds under domes on your backback), so can we look forward > to laws against *fake* recording? > > On the other hand, perhaps its time to write "you may be recorded" on > your driver's license, registration/insurance, or drivers's side door frame. > A bumper sticker would serve two purposes, hmm... From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 11:27:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:27:41 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:20:56PM +0200 References: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20010716142741.B17742@cluebot.com> Keep in mind that the Mass. decision that started this thread only dealt with *surreptitious* recording. Mann's "shooting back" is still allowed even in Mass. as long as it's obvious what you're doing. -Declan On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:20:56PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Greg Newby wrote: > > > This is a good opportunity to urge cp's who haven't yet, to read David > > Brin's "Transparent Society." It's pie in the sky, but essentially > > advocates having cameras everywhere, so that anyone anywhere can tap > > into a video feed. > > Brin's scenario is symmetric. This is not what we're getting. What we're > getting (surprise, surprise) is that recording of the public is allright > but not recording *by* the public. Mann's "shooting back" is rapidly > getting outlawed. > > -- Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 > 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From codehead at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 16 14:29:16 2001 From: codehead at ix.netcom.com (codehead at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:29:16 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people Message-ID: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> I just got off the phone with one of the customer service people at NAI, who informed me that "Encrypted e-mails from certain countries aren't accepted in the US" and that accepting encrypted email from one of the "black list" (i.e., North Korea, Libya, Iran, Iraq, China, etc.) is illegal under US law. When queried about the issue of *accepting* encrypted e-mail from a "black-list" country, the customer rep stated that this is what he was told by higher-ups in the company. Never mind the issue of web-based email, mail originating from the dot-com, dot-edu, dot-net or dot-org TLDs, spoofed headers or open relays. It was impossible to resist quoting Tim May on the transparency of national borders, and to point out that so far, anyway, there was no ubiquitous filter at the borders. The rep backpedaled and stated that "some" ISPs, specifically AOL, were choosing not to accept such email. Anyone have any idea if any ISPs are refusing to accept encrypted email from "black-listed" countries? Or is this just a matter of NAI cluelessness? From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Mon Jul 16 11:50:00 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:50:00 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010716142646.A17742@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:26:46PM -0400 References: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> <20010716142646.A17742@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010716145000.A25316@ils.unc.edu> On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:26:46PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > I was thinking along the same lines as David. Stickers in windshields > would work. I've also seen folks selling the "these are my rights, > cop" cards. Seems to be a market opportunity to add another line to > them. See http://www.aclu.org/library/bustcard.html for the ACLU's version (it's free). It's pretty level-headed advice. -- Greg From info at giganetstore.com Mon Jul 16 07:03:12 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:03:12 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Electrodom=E9sticos_para_o_seu_ver=E3o?= Message-ID: <058da5203141071WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Electrodom矇sticos para o seu ver瓊o A giganetstore.com apresenta-lhe uma gama completa de electrodom矇sticos que ajudar-lhe-瓊o a desfrutar do seu ver瓊o com mais prazer. Sorveteira Geladiss穩ma 7.290 ($) 36,36 (€) Poupe 35% Grelhador Canyon 11.990 ($) 59,81 (€) Poupe 33% Grelhador Fun Grill Luxe 15.990 ($) 79,76 (€) Poupe 8% Liquidificadora AE9.R1 9.900 ($) 49,38 (€) Poupe 40% Frigobar Indesit 39.900 ($) 199 (€) Poupe 25% Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a3495 at cotse.com Mon Jul 16 12:52:58 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <0c339e5b94de056f75b5ed642d3c5f98@freemail.cotse.com> Jim wrote: >> > > > there are plenty of SDS and >> > > > Black Panthers running around today, the vast majority never >> > > > went to jail. > > Faustine: >> >> Of course they didn't. The bottom line is that their >> >> organizations were torn apart by operations conducted against >> >> them, > > James A. Donald: >> > This is incorrect. The black panthers were torn apart because they >> > murdered dissidents, and "dissidents" came to include anyone who >> > wondered if Newton was snorting too much of the Black Panther >> > funds. The same is true to a greater or lesser extent of most of >> > the other armed communist organizations. The first target of those >> > arms was always themselves, to a greater or lesser extent, though >> > this was most dramatic and bloody in the case of the Black >> > Panthers. > > Faustine: >> The FBI exploited this mindset to the hilt--COINTELPRO kept them all >> twitching like galvanic frogs. > > To blame COINTELPRO for radical leftist internal violence is as silly > as blaming Pol Pot and the Ukraine famine on the CIA. > > If those radicals were being murdered by the feds, the radical left > would have been eager to have them investigated, instead of closing > their eyes and looking the other way, and suddenly dropping vanished > radicals down the memory hatch. > > The way we all reacted shows that we all knew full well who was doing > it. My point was the feds didn't have to murder anybody--play them off each other and they do it to themselves. Without that extra "push"? You're probably right, chances are they would have self-destructed sooner or later. Though it's true Mao made it work-- no matter how many in his own cadre he killed. I guess hippies waving their little red books around in their stupid marches just wasn't enough, huh. Still, if you read the documentation, COINTELPRO was quite a formidable program. I don't see any reason why contemporary half-baked loopy radical groups who espouse violence should expect anything less. Especially now that the national security bureaucracy and their analytic institutions are getting "information warfare" and deception operations down to a science. Ignore it at your own peril... ~Faustine. From registration at mondaq.com Mon Jul 16 07:59:51 2001 From: registration at mondaq.com (registration at mondaq.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:59:51 +0100 Subject: Mondaq User Registration Message-ID: <00fa15159141071WEBIIS01@webiis01.mondaq.com> Dear Lord Ave Mercy, Thank you for registering with Mondaq. This will help us to provide you with the best possible service. 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State >history is very interesting, and so is the law. (Early on, their police >wouldn't wiretap, it was not "gentlemanly." Ahem.) In Ohio curiously enough, it is legal to record as long as one of the parties involved know that there is a recording being made. So in Ohio recording the police would be OK as long as you personally do the recording. However, this spring near the Ohio State University, there had been an on going problem with out of control drinking parties that spawned setting fires, turning over cars, and tossing bottles and rocks at the police. Over the years the police have responded with riot tactics, liberal use of pepper spray and giving students and residents free civic lessons on what happens when you're on the wrong side of a PR-24 or ASP baton. Which in turn has caused a plethora of civil rights lawsuits many being settled out of court and the city routinely hands out millions each year to settle claims. What I did find surprising this year was watching a TV news video of the police spraying pepper spray from a fire extinguisher size sprayer at residents filming the police in action. The police spokesperson said something to the effect that "The public has got to understand that it is just unacceptable to videotape the police from a porch in a riot situation." The resident got sprayed on his own porch, not doing anything more violent than filming the Police. This must be the latest technique to minimize another Rodney King episode from happening in the first place...Just think what might have happened if the King chronicler got peppered with a few large bursts. So I guess the moral of the story is that if you must record the police you should do so clandestinely. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 16 07:20:56 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:20:56 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Greg Newby wrote: > This is a good opportunity to urge cp's who haven't yet, to read David > Brin's "Transparent Society." It's pie in the sky, but essentially > advocates having cameras everywhere, so that anyone anywhere can tap > into a video feed. Brin's scenario is symmetric. This is not what we're getting. What we're getting (surprise, surprise) is that recording of the public is allright but not recording *by* the public. Mann's "shooting back" is rapidly getting outlawed. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From KCannedy at welbaum.com Mon Jul 16 13:29:35 2001 From: KCannedy at welbaum.com (Kay M. Cannedy) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:29:35 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <116F15D8E9B4D411A1C700508BFC9F7702C36A@WGHPDC> From ericm at lne.com Mon Jul 16 16:46:20 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:46:20 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: ; from aimee.farr@pobox.com on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:41:22PM -0500 References: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010716164620.A20586@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:41:22PM -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: > Companies with products or applications relevant to defense are wary of > email from certain sovereigns. This is because they don't want clueless reps > giving away bacon in an email pretext attack. The government has been > harping on it lately. Maybe the rep got a talkie and is confused ...or > something. > > I'm just guessing. > > What is the answer? > > ~Aimee It's a mis-interpretation of the US export laws. It's common for people to think that they limit sending (or receiving in this case) encrypted data in addition to encryption devices and info. Eric From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Jul 16 17:17:12 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:17:12 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010716171233.038a3880@idiom.com> At 02:29 PM 07/16/2001 -0700, codehead at ix.netcom.com wrote: >Anyone have any idea if any ISPs are refusing to accept encrypted >email from "black-listed" countries? > >Or is this just a matter of NAI cluelessness? The usual principle of "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity" applies here, though with governments having ample supplies of both commodities, you can't always be sure. NAI's US organizations can't sell directly to anyone in countries on the Yanqui Enemies List, be they freedom fighters, government thugs, or just everyday businessfolks, but even Official Enemies can still download freeware off the PGPi non-US-owned sites. From squid at panix.com Mon Jul 16 14:19:16 2001 From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu) Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:19:16 -0400 Subject: BayTSP: anti-digital piracy startup In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010716050611.02055460@mail.well.com> Message-ID: as seen in Red Herring, who observe that the 'automatic shutdown' of sites it doesn't like could be problematic, to say the least: BAYTSP, $3M San Jose, CA http://www.baytsp.com THE PITCH: "BayTSP is emerging with the leading technology solution to online piracy of digital media. The company has developed and deployed a sophisticated spidering and detection service that identifies infringing files by their digital 'DNA,' and proceeds to automatically investigate and shut down the offending sites. 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What do I do? >> MEMBER SHOWCASES >> MEMBER *REVIEWS* - Sites to Review: #130, #131 & #132! - Three New Sites to Review! - Site #129 Reviewed! ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<< Do you a burning question about promoting your website, html design, or anything that is hindering your online success? Submit your questions to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Are you net savvy? Have you learned from your own trials and errors and are willing to share your experience? Look over the questions each day, and if you have an answer or can provide help, post your answer to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Be sure to include your signature file so you get credit (and exposure to your site). QUESTIONS: From clemons2629 at earthlink.net Mon Jul 16 15:01:34 2001 From: clemons2629 at earthlink.net (Vicki Clemons) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:1:34 -0400 Subject: Is this offer still good?? Message-ID: <412001711622134250@earthlink.net> To whom it may concern, I seen your add online, and wondered if its till any good. I was considering a home based business for myself and this looked interesting. Thank you, Vicki Clemons --- Vicki Clemons --- clemons2629 at earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. From pzakas at toucancapital.com Mon Jul 16 15:12:07 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:12:07 -0400 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: none of the rep's claims are true. note that AOL-Hong Kong would be in violation if this were true. the rep is probably confusing laws regarding export of encryption/munitions. also note that it's nearly impossible to detect encrypted email anyway as the methods (obfuscation, steg., etc.) available outnumber detection techniques available to isps. phillip > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of > codehead at ix.netcom.com > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:29 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: What NAI is telling people > > > > I just got off the phone with one of the customer service people at > NAI, who informed me that "Encrypted e-mails from certain countries > aren't accepted in the US" and that accepting encrypted email from > one of the "black list" (i.e., North Korea, Libya, Iran, Iraq, China, > etc.) is illegal under US law. > > When queried about the issue of *accepting* encrypted e-mail from a > "black-list" country, the customer rep stated that this is what he > was told by higher-ups in the company. > > Never mind the issue of web-based email, mail originating from the > dot-com, dot-edu, dot-net or dot-org TLDs, spoofed headers or open > relays. It was impossible to resist quoting Tim May on the > transparency of national borders, and to point out that so far, > anyway, there was no ubiquitous filter at the borders. The rep > backpedaled and stated that "some" ISPs, specifically AOL, were > choosing not to accept such email. > > Anyone have any idea if any ISPs are refusing to accept encrypted > email from "black-listed" countries? > > Or is this just a matter of NAI cluelessness? From codehead at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 16 18:20:33 2001 From: codehead at ix.netcom.com (codehead at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:20:33 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <20010716164620.A20586@slack.lne.com> References: ; from aimee.farr@pobox.com on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:41:22PM -0500 Message-ID: <200107170117.VAA02028@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:46:20 -0700, Eric Murray wrote: > On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:41:22PM -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: > > Companies with products or applications relevant to defense are wary of > > email from certain sovereigns. This is because they don't want clueless reps > > giving away bacon in an email pretext attack. The government has been > > harping on it lately. Maybe the rep got a talkie and is confused ...or > > something. > > > > I'm just guessing. > > > > What is the answer? > > > > ~Aimee > > It's a mis-interpretation of the US export laws. It's common for > people to think that they limit sending (or receiving in this case) > encrypted data in addition to encryption devices and info. That's exactly what I insisted to the NAI rep. I suggested that he talk to their corporate attorneys, pointing out that there was nothing in the EARs that prevented reception of such encrypted email by anyone in the US; that the EARs specifically prohibited *export* of encrypting *software*--not encrypted messages--to the black-listed countries. He, however, kept falling back on the Nuremburg defense ("I'm just following orders."). No indication that he would make any attempt to ask in spite of several suggestions. (Employment must still be pretty good in Silicon Valley, I suppose, if such people can hold a job.) It's very disheartening to see what NAI is doing/has done to PGP. It's especially disgusting in light of the pride that Phil Zimmerman and PGP, Inc., once took in enabling communications for human-rights activists in such "black-listed" countries. Now such activists, according to the NAI rep, can no longer be heard in the US if they communicate by encrypted email--which, of course, may be the only means by which they can communicate safely. Back to the original question: It's obvious that NAI is operating under the belief that some ISPs are complying with some unspoken BXA idea/wannabe-law and blocking encrypted messages from "no-no" originating domains. Is this really the case, or is NAI also full of it on this one? 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This email is sent to you as this email address is associated with the opt-in member "oddodoodo" on http://adultfriendfinder.com. To remove yourself from the mailing list, please log into Adultfriendfinder.com with your handle and password. *************************************************************** From codehead at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 16 18:38:46 2001 From: codehead at ix.netcom.com (codehead at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:38:46 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <20010716210623.B27030@cluebot.com> References: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from codehead@ix.netcom.com on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:29:16PM -0700 Message-ID: <200107170135.VAA31090@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Well, you can try calling the NAI number at 972-308-9960, and see what kind of story you get. I'm still trying to get an upgrade, which is what I called about in the first place. I've been having trouble dealing with one of their resellers, so had to go back to the source. This matter came up when the rep told me that I had to answer "yes" to the three export questions, and I asked "Do you really think that such software can be kept out of the hands of those black-listed countires?" He told me that it could because even if the people in those countries got the software, that it would be useless to them because nobody in the US could receive encrypted messages from those countries. Why, I asked. There's nothing in the EARs to prohibit reception of encrypted messages. There's no big filter at the borders checking for messages. After all, (quoting Tim May) national borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway. He conceded that while there was no big filter at the border, ISPs wouldn't accept such email. Which ISPs, I asked. He mentioned AOL. Any others? He didn't know. I asked under what law they were required to filter such incoming messages. He didn't know, but replied this is what the customer support people had been told by NAI management. I suggested (more than once) that he ask the NAI legal department if this was indeed the case. Might be also worthwhile to call AOL corporate. This could evolve into a very interesting PR incident for them if they are indeed blocking such messages, when it's pointed out that PGP usage is essential to the work of human rights, relief, charitable, and even religious organizations in those countries. On the other hand, what's one more nasty PR incident to AOL? --CH > Of course there is no law or regulation that prohibits individuals > from accepting encrypted email from the blacklist countries (or > an ISP from forwarding it). > > Though perhaps government pressure or simple misunderstanding can > explain the situation you encountered. I'd be interested in any > verifiable info on this. > > -Declan > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:29:16PM -0700, codehead at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I just got off the phone with one of the customer service people at > > NAI, who informed me that "Encrypted e-mails from certain countries > > aren't accepted in the US" and that accepting encrypted email from > > one of the "black list" (i.e., North Korea, Libya, Iran, Iraq, China, > > etc.) is illegal under US law. > > > > When queried about the issue of *accepting* encrypted e-mail from a > > "black-list" country, the customer rep stated that this is what he > > was told by higher-ups in the company. > > > > Never mind the issue of web-based email, mail originating from the > > dot-com, dot-edu, dot-net or dot-org TLDs, spoofed headers or open > > relays. It was impossible to resist quoting Tim May on the > > transparency of national borders, and to point out that so far, > > anyway, there was no ubiquitous filter at the borders. The rep > > backpedaled and stated that "some" ISPs, specifically AOL, were > > choosing not to accept such email. > > > > Anyone have any idea if any ISPs are refusing to accept encrypted > > email from "black-listed" countries? > > > > Or is this just a matter of NAI cluelessness? From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 16 16:40:15 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:40:15 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt said: > So I guess the moral of the story is that if you must record the > police you should do so clandestinely. The Court addressed this: "Followed to its logical conclusion, the dissent would encourage drug manufacturers to mount hidden video cameras in their facilities so they can capture the moment of truth when the police execute a search warrant and would authorize drug dealers secretly to tape record conversations with suspected undercover officers or with informants in order to protect the dealers' rights against hypothetical police abuse.... Every police encounter would be available for secret recording; even meter maids would not be spared. The value of obtaining probative evidence of occasional official misconduct does not justify a failure to enforce the clear terms of the statute." ---- I can't suggest a client to do anything "against the law," even though I would argue nothing is deserving of greater "transparency" than acts of the government against its citizens, and by the government's own admission, surreptitious recording uncovers wrongdoing. I think the judiciary is capable of recognizing legitimate interests so as to avoid stalked meter maids, compromised investigations and endangering the lives of UC agents. As to the privacy interests of enforcement officers in acts of enforcement: "One of the costs associated with participation in public affairs is an attendant loss of privacy." @ As for bad guys recording... The REAL bad guys usually don't want to be recorded, which is why they have taken up bodywear countermeasures. At any rate, criminal laws are only a deterrent to law-abiders. (Our electronic surveillance statutes are, to a significant extent, the legacy of political espionage. They were protecting themselves -- against themselves.) Miniaturization, affordability and availability has made *covert* surveillance a viable protective strategy for citizens. (i.e., "Tape is the best testimony.") One-party recording statutes are in recognition of this protective interest. Recording statutes, especially the new visual recording and "paparazzi" bills are deserving of scrutiny, even though many are *extremely* well-intentioned. Not only do they increasingly implicate the First Amendment, they risk limiting the citizen-use of legitimate, protective covert surveillance in certain circumstances involving citizen/government conflict -- as seen in the Hyde case. You can protect privacy without depriving people of the right to protect themselves. ~Aimee From jya at pipeline.com Mon Jul 16 18:41:19 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:41:19 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: References: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200107162241.SAA00951@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Phillip Zakas wrote: >none of the rep's claims are true. note that AOL-Hong Kong would be in >violation if this were true. the rep is probably confusing laws regarding >export of encryption/munitions. also note that it's nearly impossible to >detect encrypted email anyway as the methods (obfuscation, steg., etc.) >available outnumber detection techniques available to isps. You may be right, but it would be most informative to learn if the major ISPs, telcomms, routers and so forth have been assigned a covert task to sift for encryption using tools supplied by TLAs. NSA, for one, has the ability to spot encrypted communications -- most if not all of them. Recall that crypto data is the singular type of data that NSA is permitted under law to acquire and retain indefinitely for future study no matter the source, even if the sources are otherwise proscribed communications of US persons. This is set forth in USSID18, the NSA guideline for electronic interception: http://cryptome.org/nsa-ussid18.htm As security wizards have long noted, if you use encrypted communications anywhere in the world you will be intercepted, stored and studied. That the global ISPs may be lending a hand with this should be no surprise, for that would be continuing the long history of commercial communications companies providing covert help to those who regulate them -- despite promises to customers of confidentiality (and the banks as well). The legal departments of ISPs are the principal means by which covert cooperation is arranged, oft-times without written orders, again as in the history of communications and banking. To be sure, your lovers may not know of your betrayals but your masters always will -- that's why the intelligence oversight committees were set up in the 1970s, to assure that your privacy is forever violable, as with banking oversight of your booty. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 16 16:41:22 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:41:22 -0500 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: Companies with products or applications relevant to defense are wary of email from certain sovereigns. This is because they don't want clueless reps giving away bacon in an email pretext attack. The government has been harping on it lately. Maybe the rep got a talkie and is confused ...or something. I'm just guessing. What is the answer? ~Aimee From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 16 16:51:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:51:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > You can protect privacy without depriving people of the right to protect > themselves. Only a lawyer, or crack head, could have thinking that fucked up. 'protect privacy' is equivalent to 'right to protect themselves'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 17:59:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:59:49 -0400 Subject: Slashdot | Recording Police Misconduct is Illegal In-Reply-To: <20010716145000.A25316@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:50:00PM -0400 References: <20010714231306.A29710@ils.unc.edu> <20010716142646.A17742@cluebot.com> <20010716145000.A25316@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20010716205949.A27030@cluebot.com> Ah, close but not the same. I was talking about cards that you hand to the cops who stop you. -Declan On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:50:00PM -0400, Greg Newby wrote: > On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:26:46PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > I was thinking along the same lines as David. Stickers in windshields > > would work. I've also seen folks selling the "these are my rights, > > cop" cards. Seems to be a market opportunity to add another line to > > them. > > See http://www.aclu.org/library/bustcard.html > for the ACLU's version (it's free). It's pretty level-headed > advice. > -- Greg From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 18:06:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:06:23 -0400 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from codehead@ix.netcom.com on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:29:16PM -0700 References: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010716210623.B27030@cluebot.com> Of course there is no law or regulation that prohibits individuals from accepting encrypted email from the blacklist countries (or an ISP from forwarding it). Though perhaps government pressure or simple misunderstanding can explain the situation you encountered. I'd be interested in any verifiable info on this. -Declan On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:29:16PM -0700, codehead at ix.netcom.com wrote: > I just got off the phone with one of the customer service people at > NAI, who informed me that "Encrypted e-mails from certain countries > aren't accepted in the US" and that accepting encrypted email from > one of the "black list" (i.e., North Korea, Libya, Iran, Iraq, China, > etc.) is illegal under US law. > > When queried about the issue of *accepting* encrypted e-mail from a > "black-list" country, the customer rep stated that this is what he > was told by higher-ups in the company. > > Never mind the issue of web-based email, mail originating from the > dot-com, dot-edu, dot-net or dot-org TLDs, spoofed headers or open > relays. It was impossible to resist quoting Tim May on the > transparency of national borders, and to point out that so far, > anyway, there was no ubiquitous filter at the borders. The rep > backpedaled and stated that "some" ISPs, specifically AOL, were > choosing not to accept such email. > > Anyone have any idea if any ISPs are refusing to accept encrypted > email from "black-listed" countries? > > Or is this just a matter of NAI cluelessness? From holim77 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 16 05:13:17 2001 From: holim77 at yahoo.com (s.somy) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:13:17 +0900 Subject: Get paid to read e.mail Message-ID: <236212001711612131770@yahoo.com> Get Paid to Read e.mail. Very easy to earn money,Just read mail. $2,000 a month guarantee. 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Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little notethat read, "Please send me report number XYX".This simple note made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. Here is the letter that the 15-year-old was sending out by E-mail, you can do the exact same thing he was doing, simply by following the instructions in this letter. Dear Friends & Future Millionaires: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time, THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! =================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. 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Pam Headland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ================================================== Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ===================================================== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ===================================================== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following.. THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!!!! INSTRUCTIONS: ============= Order all 5 reports shown on the list below For each report, send $5 CASH (US $), THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. 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But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ============================================== Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY =============================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE IT OUT ! THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ====================================================== REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ================================================ Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. AVAILABLE REPORTS ================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. Hint: If you wrap your $5 bill in card or tag weight paper, light cannot shine through and expose your money and will less likely to disappear in the mail. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ======================================== REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: G.WILSON 1564 E.58TH AVENUE VANCOUVER, B.C. V5P 2C2 CANADA ========================================== REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: B. RODIMON 125 PLACE ROAD EAST HINESBURG, VT. 05461 USA ========================================== REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: L. BEASTER PMB 528 3090 GAUSE BLVD. SLIDELL LA. 70461 USA =============================================== REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: D. Hand 278 N.E. Kirby Ave Roseburg, OR 97470 USA ================================================= REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: M. Biddle 15 Wilson Close Sylvan Lake, Alberta T4S 1G2 CANADA =================================================== Please remember that your $5 bills are going all around the world and delivery of report could take up to 2-4wks. ===================================================== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ======================================================= FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and havr moved the others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! Here are some MORE TESTIMONIALS: "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois =========================================================== ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ======================================================== ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks."Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ====================================================== ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to Internet. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ======================================================== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ========================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ---------------------------------------- Be Happy :-) :-) :-) From bear at sonic.net Mon Jul 16 21:41:23 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <200107170117.VAA02028@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 codehead at ix.netcom.com wrote: >Back to the original question: It's obvious that NAI is operating >under the belief that some ISPs are complying with some unspoken BXA >idea/wannabe-law and blocking encrypted messages from "no-no" >originating domains. Is this really the case, or is NAI also full of >it on this one? Well, the easy way to find out would be to spoof the headers of an encrypted email so it appears to originate from one of those countries, send it to a tentacle or an anonymous account, and see if it falls into a black hole somewhere. Bear From declan at well.com Mon Jul 16 18:49:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:49:47 -0400 Subject: Peekabooty coverage from Reuters In-Reply-To: <20010716212426.A9944@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 09:24:26PM -0400 References: <20010716212426.A9944@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20010716214947.B27794@cluebot.com> Yeah, Elinor was here at Defcon. Since there was no real news at the conference, reporters were reduced to writing that there was no news ("cDc suffers from vaporware problem"). --Declan On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 09:24:26PM -0400, Greg Newby wrote: > This just came up at Yahoo! news. It's nice to see such positive > mainstream coverage of the cDc. It makes me wonder whether > the cDc are working the spin, or if they just found some sympathetic > journalists. > > A quick Yahoo! search on Elinor Abreu yields some reasonably > competent reporting, I'd say. > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010716/tc/tech_censorship_dc_1.html > > ... > > Monday July 16 7:13 PM ET > > Hackers Developing Anti-Censorship Software > > By Elinor Abreu > > LAS VEGAS (Reuters) - A group of hackers is finishing work on software > that would enable human rights workers to access censored Web sites, > in a move that ratchets up the ``arms race'' between free speech > activists on the Internet and government censors in Asia and the > Middle East. > > The software, called ``Peekabooty,'' was scheduled to be unveiled this > past weekend but was pushed back to later this year to make sure it > adequately protects those using it, said Oxblood Ruffin, a leader in > the group. > > ... > > -- Greg From frissell at panix.com Mon Jul 16 19:24:40 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:24:40 -0400 Subject: What NAI is telling people In-Reply-To: <20010716210623.B27030@cluebot.com> References: <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> <200107162126.RAA19455@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010716221534.02a64cf0@frissell@brillig.panix.c om> At 09:06 PM 7/16/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Of course there is no law or regulation that prohibits individuals >from accepting encrypted email from the blacklist countries (or >an ISP from forwarding it). > >Though perhaps government pressure or simple misunderstanding can >explain the situation you encountered. I'd be interested in any >verifiable info on this. > >-Declan I did encounter a law firm in Bermuda who's server was set to block "binaries" that bounced PGP messages because they are "binary." It was allegedly concerned about bandwidth, viruses, and inappropriate content.. Not the same thing of course. DCF ---- You may argue that the government can guarantee the success of the vital institutions that it subsidies. But you cannot argue that government can guarantee their failure. Government has no mechanism for guaranteeing the failure of powerful politically-connected institutions. But these institutions *must* fail if From alqaeda at fbi.gov Mon Jul 16 22:56:36 2001 From: alqaeda at fbi.gov (Al Qaeda) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:56:36 -0700 Subject: a more gnutellish napster, overseas Message-ID: <3B53D394.778A0BB9@fbi.gov> from http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/07/16/fast.track.downloads.idg/index.html When you log on to the FastTrack network, you are routed by a FastTrack server to what are called SuperNodes that contain lists of user files you can search, connect to, and download. Members automatically host SuperNodes on their PCs when needed -- and the number of SuperNodes grows and shrinks relative to demand. SuperNode computers are clustered by the thousands, so one search for a file may be handled by a hundred PC SuperNodes that intelligently rout and distribute requests, according to FastTrack chief executive Niklas Zennstrom. Zennstrom says the number of users on its network has been doubling each month, from 200,000 in June to 440,000 today, even higher than Webnoize's estimates. According to FastTrack, one million files were downloaded from its network last week. It reports 3.5 million copies of its software have been downloaded through its largest customer, MusicCity. From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Mon Jul 16 20:05:05 2001 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:05:05 -0400 Subject: BUSINESS PROPOSAL(URGENT) Bullshit In-Reply-To: <20010717002726.34990.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010716230505.01467bd8@ct2.nai.net> Bullshit. Though the name, origin isp, info, sender, etc are all coherent. Too bad its highly implausible for such contact in reality... I wouldn't even be adverse to countering political usurption, regardless of party, benefits, and help out... Oh well. -WLG At 05:27 PM 7/16/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > > GOLDEN BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY > >I am an Attorney and close confidant of MRS. MARYAM > >ABACHA, the former first lady and wife of the late > >GEN. SANI ABACHA, the former head of state and > >commander in chief of the armed forces of the Federal > >Republic of Nigeria. > > > >She (MRS. M. ABACHA), has as a result of the trust and > >confidence she has in me mandated that I search for a > >reliable and trustworthy foreign partner, who > >will help receive some funds which she had in cash > >totaling US$45m (Forty Five Million United States > >Dollars Only) into a personal, company or any > >reliable foreign bank account for safe keeping for a > >short period of time, since her family bank accounts > >within and outside the country have all been > >frozen by the authorities. (I would refer you to the > >website of TELL WEEKLY MAGAZINE: WWW.tell.org. of > >November 23, 1998 page 25, for further information > >about these monies and the ABACHAS) > > > >This money in question has however, been carefully > >keptin defaced form and deposited with a security > >company that has branches in Europe and America. > >You may therefore be required to travel to any > >of the branches to collect the money on behalf of my > >client for safe keeping. > > > >It may also interest you to know that she (MRS. > >ABACHA) and her family have, since the inception of > >the present democratic government, been placed under > >partial house arrest, with their international > >traveler嚙編 passports withdrawn pending the resolution > >of current fund recovery face - off between them and > >the present RTD GEN. OBASANJO led Federal Government, > >which from all indications will not exceed this year. > > > >She has decided to offer anybody who will be willing > >to render this tremendous assistance 20% of the total > >sum, while 5% shall be set aside for incidental > >expenses. > > > >Note that this transaction involves no risks > >whatsoever, as you will have no dealing with my > >Country, Nigeria. Rather, you will deal directly with > >the security company, which is based where the money > >is right now. > > > >Let me have your confidential Tel/Fax Numbers in your > >response to this proposal. > > > >I shall let you into a complete picture of this > >mutually beneficial transaction when I have received > >your anticipated positive reply. This matter should be > >treated as urgent and confidential. This is very > >important. > > > >Regards, > > > >Dr. Paul Abela. > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Tue Jul 17 00:08:26 2001 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:08:26 -0800 (PDT) Subject: Sony, Warner Agree on Standard Aimed at Protecting Digital Content Message-ID: <200107170607.XAA28196@user5.hushmail.com> July 17, 2001 Tech Center Sony, Warner Agree on Standard Aimed at Protecting Digital Content By ANNA WILDE MATHEWS Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL Two big Hollywood studios reached agreements to back technology that protects digital content as it moves between home devices such as set-top boxes, computers and televisions. The accords, expected to be announced Tuesday, represent an early step toward the future of digital home-entertainment networks, in which consumers could make digital copies of programs and view them on several different devices. The agreements involve Sony Corp.'s Sony Pictures Entertainment and AOL Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Bros. studio. They reached the licensing agreements with the Digital Transmission Licensing Administrator, an alliance of five big manufacturers that is widely referred to as the 5C group: Intel Corp., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Toshiba Corp., Sony and Hitachi Ltd. The new agreements will one day allow consumers to make digital recordings of some content produced by the Sony and Warner Bros. studios, using their computers or digital video recorders. But the agreements fall far short of an industry consensus, as major entertainment giants such as Walt Disney Co. and Vivendi Universal SA have yet to endorse the standard. The biggest stumbling block is the security of free broadcast programming that is received through TV antennas. Negotiations over the issue have gone on for years. Consumer-products makers want to sell digital devices that will connect with each other in home networks, including digital video recorders. For their part, entertainment companies are worried about consumers making perfect, unauthorized digital copies of their most valuable programs, and zapping them around the world free of charge. More than 50 companies have already licensed the security technology, including makers of set-top cable boxes and consumer-electronics products. But Sony and Warner are the first major Hollywood studios to sign on. Entertainment companies won't let their movies and shows be used in the new home digital networks until they are satisfied with how they will be protected. Under the deals reached between the two studios and the electronics giants, certain instructions and restrictions could be embedded in digital content such as movies. The agreements essentially set up several classes of protection, according to people familiar with them. The most protected class includes pay-per-view movies, which the entertainment companies would be able to prevent consumers from copying without permission. Consumers would be able to record portions of pay-per-view movies, however. The second category includes pay-TV cable programming such as that available on ESPN and HBO. For that, consumers would be able to make a limited number of "first generation" digital copies. But entertainment companies could prevent consumers from duplicating those copies. The question of how to protect content that comes from over-the-air broadcasters is tricky. If consumers receive such broadcasts via cable set-top boxes or satellite dishes, the security technology will allow them to make several digital copies of programs, though consumers could be blocked from retransmitting that content over the Internet. But the new security technology is essentially powerless to stop consumers from copying and retransmitting such broadcasts if they receive them via antenna. In congressional testimony earlier this year, a Warner official told lawmakers that "today's technology can do little that is meaningful to actually prevent signals received over the air from appearing on the Internet. But we do not want to delay the rollout of other types of protectable digital TV until an as-yet-undeveloped solution comes into being." Nonetheless, Disney and other studios -- some of which own broadcast networks -- are holding out for something that would better protect programming that is broadcast over the air. Write to Anna Wilde Mathews at anna.mathews at wsj.com1 Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 16 22:29:10 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What NAI is telling people Message-ID: <200107170529.BAA11951@www1.aa.psiweb.com> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 codehead at ix.netcom.com wrote: > >Back to the original question: It's obvious that NAI is operating >under the belief that some ISPs are complying with some unspoken BXA >idea/wannabe-law and blocking encrypted messages from "no-no" >originating domains. Is this really the case, or is NAI also full of >it on this one? Bear replied: # # Well, the easy way to find out would be to spoof the headers # of an encrypted email so it appears to originate from one of # those countries, send it to a tentacle or an anonymous account, # and see if it falls into a black hole somewhere. The two times I've seen an IP address in the news for Saddam Hussein (I think via Pakistan), it never worked. It did when the reporter wrote up his article. Let's mirror his site in the U.S. Oh, wait, then we'd be a terrorist group. From bounty.org at bounty.org Tue Jul 17 01:46:26 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:46:26 -0700 Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) In-Reply-To: <3B4E5FDD.6B2432AB@fbi.gov> References: <3B4E5FDD.6B2432AB@fbi.gov> Message-ID: >For Jah's sake, tossing a dog into traffic only gets you probation... Huh? FWIR the Poodle Puncher got prison time. From nabenaholding1 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 02:48:44 2001 From: nabenaholding1 at yahoo.com (nabena holding) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: urgent ! Message-ID: <20010717094844.71324.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Sir, I would have preferred that this issue is discussed on telephone with you, but since time is not on my side, I decided to put it on a email transmission directly to you and hope it嚙編 still be kept confidential. I am DR NABENA.H.head of accounts department Nigeria telecommunications limited (NITEL) headquarters, I got your contact from Mr. Rasheed Muhammed who is working with the central bank of Nigeria and also a member of Polo Club. On one of our friendly chat, I told him about the need to have an American friend who would assist me in purchasing properties and hence he directed me to you. MY PURPOSE OF CONTACTING YOU: We have in your neighborhood the sum of US$250,000.00 (Two Hundred and Fifty Thousand United State Dollars Only) meant to be paid itno (NITEL) account with Chase Manhattan Bank, White Plains Road, Scarsdale, New York 10583 U.S.A. nut I want to divert this fund to my personal account, I am soliciting your assistance to receive this little fund in your account on my behalf since civil servants in Nigeria are prohibited from operating foreign account while still in office. This offer involves no risk of any kind and I have agreed to give you 30% for your assistance. Therefore, if this transaction is of interest to you, contact me on my private telephone number stated above or you can fax me with the same number above to enable me instruct the company in your neighborhood to contact your bank for the payment immediately. Waiting to hear from you. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Mon Jul 16 19:23:17 2001 From: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net (cypherpunks at cyberpass.net) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 05:23:17 +0300 Subject: S'X Portal - Erotic palace Message-ID: <200107170515.f6H5Fq105167@rigel.cyberpass.net> www.xlportal.f2s.com - The S'X Portal - palace of Erotic fantasies. Photos and pictures of hot brunette, sexual blonde, nude girls. Come in, look and choose !!! From cypherpunks at toad.com Mon Jul 16 19:23:45 2001 From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 05:23:45 +0300 Subject: S'X Portal - Erotic palace Message-ID: <200107170223.TAA11344@toad.com> www.xlportal.f2s.com - The S'X Portal - palace of Erotic fantasies. Photos and pictures of hot brunette, sexual blonde, nude girls. Come in, look and choose !!! 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To be removed from this list reply to nomorelist at bigfoot.com with the header of Delete From anthony.gallagher at mondaq.com Mon Jul 16 23:16:04 2001 From: anthony.gallagher at mondaq.com (Anthony Gallagher) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 07:16:04 +0100 Subject: Problem -Web Site Message-ID: <097BDD4F3564D211BB3800A0C9EC0ED2CE6DD3@mondaqint1.mondaq.com> I have had a look in our database and can see that you are not currently susbscibed to newsletters. I have also marked your profile with a "no email" flag. I also take your comment on board and will build a link from the "your profile" link on the top right navigation bar to the newletters manager page. Thank-you for using Mondaq. --webmaster. -----Original Message----- From: cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:cypherpunks at toad.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 12:53 AM To: feedback at mondaq.com Subject: Problem -Web Site UserName = Ave Mercy Email Address = cypherpunks at toad.com Comments that were made. ------------------------------------- Can't Find "Unsubscribe" or "Update Your Profile" except by dumb luck. Somebody gave the address of our mailing list as the email address for their subscription, and while it's interesting enough material, we don't want it automatically sent to our list. I tried to find the page to unsubscribe, but can't find one. We'd greatly appreciate it if you'd do two things - 1) Remove the user "cypherpunks" from your mailing lists 2) Change the main menu on your pages to include an entry about "manage your profile" or something similar, and ideally also add an unsubscribe capability (though I can fake that by just changing my email address to nobody at nowhere.com.) From david.g.bennett at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 17 07:40:32 2001 From: david.g.bennett at worldnet.att.net (David G Bennett) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 07:40:32 -0700 Subject: please remove me from your e-mail listserve Message-ID: <3B544E5F.67D70EF1@worldnet.att.net> From rick91 at hkg.net Tue Jul 17 08:44:02 2001 From: rick91 at hkg.net (rick91 at hkg.net) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:44:02 Subject: toner supplies Message-ID: <352.385489.302135@hkg.net> PLEASE FORWARD TO THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR PURCHASING YOUR LASER PRINTER SUPPLIES **** VORTEX SUPPLIES **** LASER PRINTER TONER CARTRIDGES, COPIER AND FAX CARTRIDGES SAVE UP TO 30% FROM RETAIL ORDER BY PHONE:1-888-288-9043 ORDER BY FAX: 1-888-977-1577 CUSTOMER SERVICE: 1-888-248-2015 E-MAIL REMOVAL LINE: 1-888-248-4930 UNIVERSITY AND/OR SCHOOL PURCHASE ORDERS WELCOME. (NO CREDIT APPROVAL REQUIRED) ALL OTHER PURCHASE ORDER REQUESTS REQUIRE CREDIT APPROVAL. PAY BY CHECK (C.O.D), CREDIT CARD OR PURCHASE ORDER (NET 30 DAYS). 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ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Jul 17 08:52:48 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:52:48 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <0c339e5b94de056f75b5ed642d3c5f98@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <3B53FCE0.9827.6711B6@localhost> -- On 16 Jul 2001, at 15:52, wrote: James A. Donald: > > > > The black panthers were torn apart because they murdered > > > > dissidents Faustine > My point was the feds didn't have to murder anybody--play them off > each other and they do it to themselves. If they were the kind of people who could so easily be tempted to murder dissidents, perhaps the spooks had the right idea. > Still, if you read the documentation, COINTELPRO was quite a formidable > program. Perhaps. The FBI by its very nature tends to do bad things, and we have seen some bad things done by the FBI to people who post on this list. I took a look at a few web pages reporting COINTELPRO, and found them long on unspecified rumors about things happening to unspecified people at unspecified places and times, and very short on any concrete evidence concerning specific people to which specific things had happened, much resembling web pages reporting widespread use of slaves, or widespread alien abductions. Now obviously we know of some real world activities that correspond to COINTELPRO, notably the attack on Randy Weaver, but it seems to me that there is absolutely zero evidence that the authoritarian and self destructive actions of the radical left during the late sixties, the seventies, and the eighties were the result of evil CIA mind rays. If such evidence existed, it would have been prominently displayed on some of the web pages I encountered. I find it much more plausible that commies did bad things, things characteristic of commies, because they were bad people. I did a web search for KGB and COINTELPRO, to find a web page that mentioned bad conduct by all such agencies. I found no relevant hits, from which I conclude that of all the people so vitally concerned about the bad things done by the FBI in the sixties and seventies, not a one is at all concerned about the bad things done by the KGB in the sixties and seventies. Of course it is reasonable for people in the US to be more concerned about US spies that Soviet spies, since the US spies mostly on US people, and the Soviet Union spied mostly on russian people, but still, zero relevant hits? I find that a little odd. This gives me reason to doubt the sincerity, and therefore the truthfulness, of those reporting COINTELPRO --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG CWUGSojScqdtb2OLwAmSDcwtXUw2BbiGQuFlO+64 4RIC9wK5YzoTa1WEOK1TCXmhoxiOg7zoB1ujHqbdZ From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Jul 17 09:17:03 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:17:03 -0700 Subject: Meatspace In-Reply-To: <200107161606.MAA29926@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3B54028F.31403.7D4500@localhost> -- > jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > # > # The blank panthers and the rest were opposed to the > # bourgeois democratic process. On 16 Jul 2001, at 12:06, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Is that some sort of excuse for the treatment I listed? It is a response to the claim was that the Panther's repression of internal dissent was somehow a result of CIA mindrays making them do evil things. They did evil things because they were bad people. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG qlDFQOxmMluDxFuqLdB9CLsJU/tO9Ae+Kj+5Sv4g 4fTsw4fPr/j4Vo7y1zRKq4rHFUfSM/EkcmYkfX4UK From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Jul 17 09:17:03 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:17:03 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <3B54028F.2757.7D450A@localhost> -- Faustine > Still, if you read the documentation, COINTELPRO was quite a > formidable program. According to the FBI documents, a major objective of the COINTELPRO program was to detect when the Panthers did bad things, and use those bad things to generate adverse publicity for the panthers. But we know the panthers often did bad things without getting any adverse publicity at the time, which would indicate the program was not very formidable at all. An organization like the FBI will always find threats to security, regardless of whether those threats exist, and will always take actions against those threats, regardless of whether the threat is real, or the means legitimate. We should not conclude from this that all alleged threats are unreal, any more than we should conclude them all to be real, nor should we expect the FBI's actions to be competent or effectual. The FBI is doubtless formidable when its resources are marshalled against a lone guy with no money and few friends, but it seems somewhat less effectual against more formidable targets. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG dejpk8/VC1gQ+BWcMYsPjabAau5ab5Ux6d4TvfaK 4XFYqIaMT1SgApEjCSCmpCaMCTvaB7yOldgC7IF8n From lisat at etransmail2.com Tue Jul 17 09:31:14 2001 From: lisat at etransmail2.com (Lisa Thornton) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:31:14 -0700 Subject: New Prestige & Premium Checks! Message-ID: <200107171956.f6HJuM611682@ak47.algebra.com> You are subscribed as: cypherpunks at algebra.com Good Afternoon! 1. New: highly attractive and secure Prestige & Premium check styles from G7 http://www.g7ps.com 2. Get your Executive Membership today and save on all your purchases of toner supplies, software and blank check paper! Click on the link below and then on the "Become a Member and Save" banner: http://www.g7ps.com 3. FREE Productivity Software in full retail packaging: ******************** a) eXpressForms "forms publisher" ($129.99 value) b) Fortune "relationship manager" ($149.99 value) c) DataScan "business card & contact list scanner" ($149.99 value) d) TransForm Suite "automatic form creation and text OCR" ($59.99 value) Pick up your FREE products at the web site specified below. Click on the following link for details and to order (or call the 800 number below) http://www.g7ps.com ********************* Please do not hesitate to call 800-303-2620 for any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Regards, Lisa Thornton Productivity Services Director G7 Productivity Systems, Inc. lisat at etransmail2.com 800-303-2620 To change your communication preference please click on: http://www.globalzon2k.com/scripts/mf_de.asp?e=cypherpunks at algebra.com or simply reply to this Email with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 17 10:18:42 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:18:42 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. References: <200107171628.MAA07432@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <004201c10ee4$88f403b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Ok. That's pretty much my limit. When a foreign national can be arrested for a bit of coding which was developed (I assume) outside the US and never, by his actions (I assume) hit US soil well it really is time for the DMCA to go. I'd be interested in talking to cypherpunks who actually would like to do something activist about eliminating this legislative scourge and hopefully doing something a bit more substantial than EFF or CPSR has been doing on the subject. Is there a legal fund developing for our wayward Russian or an anti-DMCA fund? Am I giving EFF and CPSR a bad rap? Should we be giving them money earmarked exclusively for anti-DMCA activities? Where is the usually outspoken John Gilmore after his landmark essay on the topic? ( http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html ) Where can reverse engineering be conducted in the world anymore without felonies being leveled? Does anyone care? 0x5EECF144 - 3072/1024 E1E1 3903 6880 62BE 7FAC 22BD 080C A545 5EEC F144 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "A bomb named 'Mike'" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: FBI arrests Russian hacker visiting U.S. for alleged DMCA breach > Declan McCullagh wrote: > # > # FBI agents have arrested a Russian programmer for giving > # away software that removes the restrictions on encrypted > # Adobe Acrobat files. > > > "Nuts!" > From sales at jrasecurity.com Tue Jul 17 10:28:34 2001 From: sales at jrasecurity.com (sales at jrasecurity.com) Date: 17 Jul 2001 10:28:34 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107171730.KAA01027@toad.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sales at jrasecurity.com Tue Jul 17 10:28:49 2001 From: sales at jrasecurity.com (sales at jrasecurity.com) Date: 17 Jul 2001 10:28:49 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107171734.MAA03454@einstein.ssz.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at black.org Tue Jul 17 10:56:28 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:56:28 -0700 Subject: What NAI is telling people Message-ID: <3B547C4B.ACFAF307@black.org> At 06:41 PM 7/16/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >to sift for encryption using tools supplied by TLAs. NSA, for one, has >the ability to spot encrypted communications -- most if not all of them. Probably not well-done stego posted to widely read lists. From declan at well.com Tue Jul 17 07:57:48 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:57:48 -0400 Subject: FC: FBI arrests Russian hacker visiting U.S. for alleged DMCA breach Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45298,00.html Russian Adobe Hacker Busted By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 7:04 a.m. July 17, 2001 PDT LAS VEGAS -- FBI agents have arrested a Russian programmer for giving away software that removes the restrictions on encrypted Adobe Acrobat files. Dmitry Sklyarov, a lead programmer for Russian software company ElcomSoft, was visiting the United States for the annual Defcon hacker convention, where he gave a talk on the often-flawed security of e-books. This would be the second known prosecution under the criminal sections of the controversial Digital Millennium Copyright Act, (DMCA) which took effect last year and makes it a crime to "manufacture" products that circumvent copy protection safeguards. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Tue Jul 17 08:01:13 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:01:13 -0400 Subject: FBI arrests Russian hacker visiting U.S. for alleged DMCA breach Message-ID: <20010717110112.B23705@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From honig at sprynet.com Tue Jul 17 11:05:38 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:05:38 -0700 Subject: Satellite taxes In-Reply-To: <3B5424FB.663DA81@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3B4B4E39.389D2B3B@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010717110538.00914a50@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:43 PM 7/17/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote: >Of course, as someone else pointed out in the parallel thread, the >diplomats thought of it as well, and limited airspace to a hundred >somethings (can't remember what. Kilometres I assume. If it was miles >some eccentric-orbit spy satellites might get into the airspace. Though >it is hard to imagine the CIA paying their Iraqi taxbill for >reconnaissance overflights). Yes and 'territorial waters' are defined by the range of ship to shore artillery (of past). 100 km was once ununattainable, ergo indefensable, ergo written off by the 'diplomats' Things change. There's rockets hitting rockets up there now. From amaha at vsnl.net Tue Jul 17 09:09:02 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:09:02 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107171609.f6HG92p17094@ak47.algebra.com> The cautious seldom err. --Confucius, The Confucian Analects ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From bob at black.org Tue Jul 17 11:40:05 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:40:05 -0700 Subject: burning down the house (russian adobe rev-eng jailed) Message-ID: <3B548684.FF6F4862@black.org> At 10:18 AM 7/17/01 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: >Ok. That's pretty much my limit. Concise understatement... >Where can reverse engineering be >conducted in the world anymore without felonies being leveled? Does anyone >care? We care intensely, we are still reeling. Anonymously coded Adobe e-book browser plug-in, anyone? How do you picket a virtual store? From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 09:25:44 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace Message-ID: <200107171625.MAA08101@www4.aa.psiweb.com> jamesd at echeque.com wrote: # # The blank panthers and the rest were opposed to the # bourgeois democratic process. # # On 16 Jul 2001, at 12:06, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: # > Is that some sort of excuse for the treatment I listed? # # It is a response to the [some other] claim [snip] I thought not. From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 09:28:00 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI arrests Russian hacker visiting U.S. for alleged DMCA breach Message-ID: <200107171628.MAA07432@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: # # FBI agents have arrested a Russian programmer for giving # away software that removes the restrictions on encrypted # Adobe Acrobat files. "Nuts!" From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Jul 17 04:34:16 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:34:16 +0100 Subject: lawyer physics (was taxing satellites) References: <3.0.6.32.20010710222257.0096a460@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3B5422B8.D0DBC7C2@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> > More importantly: you can't get sued if your space debris trashes someone > else's mission. A piece of law that will have to be re-assessed if there ever are any space colonists, or serious productive industry in LEO. You really wouldn't want to live somewhere where anyone who "accidentally" evacuates all the air from your house has no legal liability. Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Jul 17 04:43:56 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:43:56 +0100 Subject: Satellite taxes References: <3B4B4E39.389D2B3B@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3B5424FB.663DA81@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > Um, wouldn't a natural way to assess property taxes be to first decide > in which jurisdiction the property rests? No Virginia, "The Man who Sold the Moon" was not written by David Bowie. > For instance project the > boundary of jurisdictions into space from the geometrical center of the > earth. In which case it would probably be Brazil that should be > collecting the taxes and Hughes would be writing off the taxes as a cost > thereby reducing the taxes collected in California. Look for the > locations over international waters to get crowded. Hey, you almost make me feel like Tim May! Get with the program. Use those search engines. Everyone should read the works of Robert Heinlein. Not to mention half a dozen old sf hacks from the 1940s to the 1960s. If they had, they might not have an answer to the problem "who should tax a satellite", never mind the even harder problem "how do I stop my satellite being taxed", but they would at least have *thought* about it. And why the the Brazil option probably wouldn't work. Or has my gross British sense of humour failed to detect your subtle American sense of irony? Of course, as someone else pointed out in the parallel thread, the diplomats thought of it as well, and limited airspace to a hundred somethings (can't remember what. Kilometres I assume. If it was miles some eccentric-orbit spy satellites might get into the airspace. Though it is hard to imagine the CIA paying their Iraqi taxbill for reconnaissance overflights). In general sf is of no help in predicting the future. But it sometimes means that when the future comes the questions we have to answer don't take us quite as much by surprise as they do some of our neighbours. Even if we don't always agree on the answers. Anyway it is fun, so hie thee to the nearest bookshop and get into the backstory. Ken Brown From dennis_hughes at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 10:50:20 2001 From: dennis_hughes at hotmail.com (dennis_hughes at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:50:20 -0500 Subject: Forum: Curious Message-ID: <200107171750.MAA12559@zephyr.imagiware.com> That's a GREAT point about parole making it cheap to make something criminal. I never thought of it that way before! That being said, in a Libertarian society, I'd not mind parole, so long as the person voluntarily signed away the rights that were being disposed of in favor of physical freedom. In a Libertarian society though, you'd see a DAMNED lot fewer things that are illegal. Subbie I'm curious what types of felonies you've committed. If they're nothing more than drug use and the like, I don't care. : At 2:39 PM -0700 7/4/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: : >Inchoate wrote: : > : >> 'routine search'? Remind me never : >> to go to Ohio. : > : >It's every state of the Union. Parolees are still prisoners. Just as you : >can search a prisoner's cell, a parole officer can search a parolee's house. : : The entire parole process is itself an open sore on our justice system. It's turned into a control system, a "force magnfication" scheme. Instead of actually having to _jail_ all of the people, they release them early, take away their key Bill of Rights protections (2nd, 4th, etc., including the vote) and have them as virtual slaves of the system. : : From an economic/libertarian point of view, what this has done is to alter the costs of making things criminal. Standard economic theory: making more people criminals doesn't cost much, and makes them more malleable. As so many people have said so pithily, "At the rate they're going, we'll _all_ be felons." And felons don't need no steenking constitutional rights. : : Were Orwell writing today, he'd probably replace his "proles" with "parolees." And the cameras in each room would merely be part of the parole process. : : One of the biggest concerns Keith Henson had in his probable 6-month sentence in his case (which is another issue) is that he was likely to receive a 5-year probation term, during which his house could (and likely would) be entered at any time, day or night, and during which period his private files and records would be scrutinized for any thoughtcrimes which could be used to send him back for a longer period. (Which happened with both Bell and Parker.) : : As a felon myself, and one who committed a dozen or so felonies each carrying 3-year terms just last week, I realize how the entire probation/parole process is what Big Brother really likes the most about our so-called justice system. : : --Tim May : : : -- : Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California : Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon : Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go : Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns : From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 17 13:45:18 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:45:18 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. References: <200107172014.QAA07582@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <007b01c10f01$68b30070$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "A bomb named 'Mike'" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 1:14 PM Subject: Re: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. > Black Unicorn with the opalesque spike wrote: > # > # Ok. That's pretty much my limit. > # > # Where can reverse engineering be conducted in the > # world anymore without felonies being leveled? > # > # Does anyone care? george at orwellian.org replied: > Cypherpunks do something? > > Maybe start with the basics: a WWW site. > Doesn't Choate have a couple registered names for our use? Nevermind. I retract my request. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 17 13:55:19 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:55:19 -0700 Subject: Philip Morris, in the news In-Reply-To: <200107171815.OAA19015@www1.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200107171815.OAA19015@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 2:15 PM -0400 7/17/01, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > >MSNBC reports Philip Morris has advised the Czech government, >in writing, that they would save millions in retirement >benefits if they promoted more smoking. > >Philip Morris responded to a request for comment >by saying, "It was just an economic study." > >U.S. companies are just trying to be helpful. ;-) And truthful. I've been telling people this at parties for many years: since most smokers are productive up until the time they develop lung cancer (maybe more so, due to the nicotine high), and because they typically develop lung cancer after their most productive years but before their declining years, smoking should be REQUIRED. The fact that lung cancer typically is not expensive to treat is a plus. Press reports of the above story are, as usual, missing the essential truth of the point and are focusing on the "callousness" of the Giant Corporations. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 11:15:48 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Philip Morris, in the news Message-ID: <200107171815.OAA19015@www1.aa.psiweb.com> MSNBC reports Philip Morris has advised the Czech government, in writing, that they would save millions in retirement benefits if they promoted more smoking. Philip Morris responded to a request for comment by saying, "It was just an economic study." U.S. companies are just trying to be helpful. ;-) From alqaeda at fbi.gov Tue Jul 17 14:28:58 2001 From: alqaeda at fbi.gov (Al Qaeda) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:28:58 -0700 Subject: military pornography Message-ID: <3B54AE1A.ABCDE549@fbi.gov> "According to the military briefing Sgt. Holt received when she arrived, any visible skin below the neck is considered pornography." http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010717-4503880.htm And we're defending these Saudi pig-fuckers? From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 17 12:35:04 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:35:04 -0500 Subject: Computer detective talks about Levy evidence Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/17/levy.access.cnna/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From matt at rearviewmirror.org Tue Jul 17 14:40:38 2001 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:40:38 -0700 Subject: Satellite taxes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010717110538.00914a50@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3B4B4E39.389D2B3B@lsil.com> <3.0.6.32.20010717110538.00914a50@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <01071714403801.06227@minerva.rearviewmirror.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Jul 17 06:41:17 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:41:17 +0100 Subject: Most of a nation on probation (GPS convicts) References: <3B519692.3316.BFB82E@localhost> Message-ID: <3B54407D.11C8614@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> > I have never had a background check until after I was hired at my current job. After I had been hired for a long time, suddenly they did background checks on everyone, though surely by then they knew everyone well enough to know that none of us were likely to run amuk and start shooting > coworkers. > > Suddenly background checks are in. I do not know why. Guess I should ask. I think they are afraid of being sued if anyone anywhere in the USA claims to have been hurt or inconvenienced or discriminated against due to one of the company's products. "How can you say you are safe? You employ KNOWN DRUG ABUSERS!" At a previous employer of mine - a very large US company - checks for drugs & so on came in about 5 years ago. Also, to intense bad publicity, tests for HIV and other diseases (because of health insurance, supposedly). They didn't apply to existing employees except in safety related jobs. Very much the flavour of the month, because of news articles blaming drunk or drugged train drivers, machine operators & so on for causing accidents. As our company has lost or killed maybe couple of hundred people in industrial accidents in the previous decade or so we were sensitive to it. Though why they wanted to extend it to workers who didn't drive anything more lethal than a desk was beyond me. Here in the UK (things may be different in the US) it is probably easier for someone with a criminal record to get a job with government or public bodies, or with charities and non-profit organisations, than it would be with a private company. Though of course it depends on the nature of the record. I doubt if a 30 yearold record for hemp is going to lose anyone any job at the moment in Britain. It might even be a qualification fro getting elected to Parliament. For about 6 months now prominent politicians have been queuing up to "confess" to having smoked dope in their mis-spent youths. Ken Brown From hseaver at ameritech.net Tue Jul 17 12:56:57 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:56:57 -0500 Subject: Computer detective talks about Levy evidence References: Message-ID: <3B54987D.47CE9BE6@ameritech.net> I had just looked at that earlier -- lots of mis-information of course ("every email you ever got or sent is still on your computer"), and he alleges that computer seizure is now routinely done in all criminal cases no matter what the charge. Which is interesting if it's true. Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/17/levy.access.cnna/index.html > > James Choate > Product Certification - Operating Systems > Staff Engineer > 512-436-1062 > jchoate at tivoli.com -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Jul 17 06:57:00 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:57:00 +0100 Subject: BayTSP: anti-digital piracy startup References: Message-ID: <3B54442C.48F4CE31@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Their website doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Grindingly slow, almost contentless, no clues at all as to what they are proposing to actually do to shut down the sites, which is the hard part. No implication of automatic shutdown, they just say they will notify people. So all they are selling is a search engine really. They are just offering to search the web for files which you claim you own. There is some handwaving about timestamps and digital signatures - their very tedious Flash presentation implies that they copy, sign and timestamp the allegedly offending website and make two CDs of it, sending one to the ISP and one to their customer. Also screenshots. Dumb. No hint as to what to do if the "infringer" sues you for copying their website onto a CD. No hint as to what they do if two of their customers claim to own the same content. No hint as to what they do if I claim that I own some files just to sick them onto Disney or Murdoch. (Not that it is hard to guess - as always with these things, he who dies employing the most lawyers wins). Ken Brown Yeoh Yiu wrote: > > as seen in Red Herring, who observe that the > 'automatic shutdown' of sites it doesn't like could > be problematic, to say the least: > > BAYTSP, $3M > San Jose, CA > http://www.baytsp.com > THE PITCH: "BayTSP is emerging with the leading technology > solution to online piracy of digital media. The company has > developed and deployed a sophisticated spidering and > detection service that identifies infringing files by their > digital 'DNA,' and proceeds to automatically investigate and > shut down the offending sites. Customers in the pipeline > include Viacom, the NFL, and major record labels. With a > slim team, low burn, and virtually no marketing expense, > BayTSP has already attracted attention and interest from the > major record labels and music publisher organizations in > their fight against Napster and other peer-to-peer file > sharing networks." > WHY WE LIKE IT: Interest from major customers. > WHAT THEY'RE UP AGAINST: Automatic detection and shutdown > of infringement could lead to disaster if there's a mistake > made. > CONTACT: investor at baytsp.com From hseaver at ameritech.net Tue Jul 17 13:01:29 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:01:29 -0500 Subject: next, we ban cutlery References: <200107171939.MAA23076@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3B54998C.B9C285D6@ameritech.net> I was looking at archery sites this morning, looking for a light recurve targe bow, and hit an Australian page that also had crossbows -- was shocked to see that you need a permit to buy these "prohibited weapons" there. Doesn't take much to make a crossbow, folks. Must be those Aussies watched Mad Max movies a few times too many, eh? -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From alqaeda at fbi.gov Tue Jul 17 15:11:28 2001 From: alqaeda at fbi.gov (Al Qaeda) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:28 -0700 Subject: burning a flag is a hate crime Message-ID: <3B54B810.803860A0@fbi.gov> "Vandalizing a no-parking sign is a misdemeanor, but burning a flag is a hate crime" Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/washington/ap105.htm From ashwood at msn.com Tue Jul 17 13:16:21 2001 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:16:21 -0500 Subject: Computer detective talks about Levy evidence References: <3B54987D.47CE9BE6@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <010b01c10efd$62bdb880$908b273f@josephas> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harmon Seaver" Subject: CDR: Re: Computer detective talks about Levy evidence > he alleges that computer seizure is now routinely done in all > criminal cases no matter what the charge. Which is interesting if it's > true. I can tell you it is not true. I have a less than reputable brother (drugs), and he was recently accused of running a small meth lab within whatever the distance is of 2 school, so it's is a very serious accusation. The computer that sits not 20 feet from the alleged location of the alleged meth lab (sorry I honestly don't know the truth, all reports I get are at least second hand) has not been notably touched by law enforcement officials of any kind. So while I'm sure it is commonplace and perhaps standard protocol to confiscate the computer with most crimes, there are exceptions. Joe From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 17 13:32:30 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:32:30 -0500 Subject: Your kid's an asshole, and guess who's to blame? Message-ID: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/14/85942/3961 James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 17 15:52:24 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: next, we ban cutlery In-Reply-To: <3B54998C.B9C285D6@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > I was looking at archery sites this morning, looking for a >light recurve targe bow, and hit an Australian page that also had >crossbows -- was shocked to see that you need a permit to buy these >"prohibited weapons" there. Doesn't take much to make a crossbow, >folks. Must be those Aussies watched Mad Max movies a few times too >many, eh? > No fed statutes on crossbows, but does anybody know how many states have permit restrictions on them? Bear From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 13:14:17 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. Message-ID: <200107172014.QAA07582@www6.aa.psiweb.com> > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > FBI agents have arrested a Russian programmer for giving > away software that removes the restrictions on encrypted > Adobe Acrobat files. The Big O wrote: > > "Nuts!" Black Unicorn with the opalesque spike wrote: # # Ok. That's pretty much my limit. # # Where can reverse engineering be conducted in the # world anymore without felonies being leveled? # # Does anyone care? Cypherpunks do something? Maybe start with the basics: a WWW site. Doesn't Choate have a couple registered names for our use? Describe how to use encryption on each platform. The various options for sending/receiving encrypted email. Set up (I volunteer to figure out the software scripting if people are interested in using it) a clone of lne. Boy, has lne eliminated 99% of the crap that the other nodes get. Anyway, a clone that accepts only encrypted submissions, and sends encrypted output. Purely for slinging more encrypted traffic around, obviously. Just on principle. The encrypted list software might be useful to other people. Okay, to get back to the subject: an explanation on how to release these tools anonymously. Document why it is necessary. It's not the reverse engineering that needs to be moved to foreign outposts. Perhaps describe some methodologies for selling it anonymously. ---- Blacky wrote: # # I'd be interested in talking to cypherpunks who actually would # like to do something activist about eliminating this legislative # scourge and hopefully doing something a bit more substantial # than EFF or CPSR has been doing on the subject. That takes voters, right? We don't lob money, right? Maybe one of those "reach out to three others..." sequences, with an URL to tie everyone together to alerts to write letters. We'd provide a letter template for each alert that they could edit on our site, create a PDF or WWW page output for them to print and actually send in. Many places don't seem to react to email. ---- What was that Kurt Vonnegut book/movie (Jerry Lewis): Slapstick. Maybe we should start a movement of people who all change/set legally their middle name to 'Privacy'. Damn straight. From alqaeda at fbi.gov Tue Jul 17 17:00:26 2001 From: alqaeda at fbi.gov (Al Qaeda) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:00:26 -0700 Subject: Moscow Times on Adobe-DCMA-Atrocity Message-ID: <3B54D19A.783B36CB@fbi.gov> http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=1532 Moscow Times covers Adobe PDF eBook decryption -- in PDF ElcomSoft stops selling disputed software, makes limited demo freely available on Internet 8 July 2001 Adding a bit of an ironic twist to the brewing legal matter on alleged copyright infringement between Adobe Systems and Moscow-based ElcomSoft Ltd., The Moscow Times reported the latest events in its July 4 edition -- available in PDF. Meanwhile, Adobe Systems was closed the week of the national U.S. holiday. In a page 9 article titled "E-Book Duplicators Hit Barnes & Noble," the online, English-language newspaper quotes a Barnes & Noble VP as saying the company's Internet store "incurred considerable losses due to the pause in sales of new bestsellers." The company stopped sales for a day late last month to allow Adobe to release version (2.2) of its free Acrobat eBook Reader, an upgrade with enhanced security that could not be decrypted by ElcomSoft's commercially available Advanced Ebook Processor (AEBPR) product. The Times reports that -- as had previously been forewarned in coverage on our Planet eBook sister site -- in response to Adobe's threatened legal action for copyright infringement, ElcomSoft is now giving away an updated, reduced functionality version of AEBPR. According to the company's Web site, this free demo version of AEBPR 2.2 has been modified to support limited decryption -- 25 percent of the content -- "only to demonstrate that Adobe technology (used in Adobe Content Server, Adobe WebBuy and Acrobat eBook Reader) is still weak." "The electronic book world has produced its own Napster," Alexander Katalov, Elcomsoft's General Manager, told the Moscow Times. He also reportedly denied blame for any wrongdoing, pointing to PDF security as the real issue. In defending the company's initial development and sale of AEBPR, he told the Times that the product "was often purchased by people with poor eyesight, since Adobe's e-book software did not permit the use of programs for reading text out loud." In fact, Adobe's eBook Reader does allow ebooks to be read aloud (when using a computer with voice activation capabilities) -- *if* the publisher, not Adobe -- chooses to grant that permission. Adobe had threatened ElcomSoft with copyright infringement in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), specifically Section 1201 -- for circumventing its rights-protection designed to guard the rights of publishers and authors. In legal circles, there currently are debates taking place over the use of encryption systems for digital content that are more restrictive for users than laws dealing with printed books. For example, its commonplace -- and legal -- for someone to re-sell a printed book; as an ebook, with most current technologies, that would be considered a violation of copyright. The Moscow Times' article cites the operator of a Russian Web site on copyright as saying that by simply posting a URL where it now freely gives away AEBPR, ElcomSoft is safe from prosecution "according to current Russian judicial practice." Adobe Systems -- known in the industry for its strong anti-piracy litigation -- seems likely to put that notion to a test, while needing to take steps to further strengthen PDF security and to educate users on proper security implementation techniques -- keeping in mind there is no perfect, never-fail solution. Like The Moscow Times, part of Independent Media, The St. Petersburg Times newspaper also publishes English-language news from Russia -- also in PDF. The complete 31-page, July 4 issue is available online -- as a large PDF file [PDF: 6.2 MB] (and also in HTML). From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 14:05:29 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your kid's an asshole, and guess who's to blame? Message-ID: <200107172105.RAA10163@www6.aa.psiweb.com> # http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/14/85942/3961 % % The question is, how do basically good people % do such a great job of screwing up their kids? % % Again, the answer is MONEY. # # James Choate # Product Certification - Operating Systems # Staff Engineer # 512-436-1062 # jchoate at tivoli.com Well, that's brilliant. Is this part of your crackpot economic theories? Is that why you've posted it? From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 17 14:41:46 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <3B53FCE0.9827.6711B6@localhost> References: <3B53FCE0.9827.6711B6@localhost> Message-ID: > On 16 Jul 2001, at 15:52, wrote: James A. Donald: >> > > > The black panthers were torn apart because they murdered >> > > > dissidents > > Faustine >> My point was the feds didn't have to murder anybody--play them off >> each other and they do it to themselves. > > If they were the kind of people who could so easily be tempted to > murder dissidents, perhaps the spooks had the right idea. > >> Still, if you read the documentation, COINTELPRO was quite a >> formidable program. > > Perhaps. The FBI by its very nature tends to do bad things, and we > have seen some bad things done by the FBI to people who post on this > list. > > I took a look at a few web pages reporting COINTELPRO, and found them > long on unspecified rumors about things happening to unspecified people > at unspecified places and times, and very short on any concrete > evidence concerning specific people to which specific things had > happened, much resembling web pages reporting widespread use of > slaves, or widespread alien abductions. Sure, I agree that 98+% of what's out there is crap. That's why it's useful to examine sources (like the book I mentioned) consisting of primary documents. Ditch the nutcase exegesis and see for yourself: not perfectly reliable by any means but at least it circumvents a lot of the paranoid hype... > Now obviously we know of some real world activities that correspond to > COINTELPRO, notably the attack on Randy Weaver, but it seems to me that > there is absolutely zero evidence that the authoritarian and self > destructive actions of the radical left during the late sixties, the > seventies, and the eighties were the result of evil CIA mind rays. If > such evidence existed, it would have been prominently displayed on some > of the web pages I encountered. I think MK-ULTRA is the project the "evil CIA mind rays" people hang their hat on; you're even more unlikely to find reasonable commentary on that one. Embarassing, really. > I find it much more plausible that commies did bad things, things > characteristic of commies, because they were bad people. True: but then there's always the gray area of exactly what's done in the name of "what bad people deserve" that keeps me uneasy about the whole thing. Have you read Gordon Thomas' book about the Mossad, "Gideon's Spies"? He was allowed to interview all the top agency people, so you can be sure nothing got out the agency didn't want out. Even still, it's a fascinating, hard-hitting look at what happens when an organization of brilliant, ruthless people come to exist in a system with limited accountability: hardcore realpolitik at its most elemental. Interesting to compare to the way things get done (and don't get done)in the US. For instance, they don't have any qualms at all about using state-sponsored asassination a tool of policy--it gets the job done, but at what price? How much of a difference does it make that they face a near-immediate threat from all sides; if the same became true of the US would it somehow become a more appropriate strategy? No easy answers. > I did a web search for KGB and COINTELPRO, to find a web page that > mentioned bad conduct by all such agencies. I found no relevant hits, > from which I conclude that of all the people so vitally concerned about > the bad things done by the FBI in the sixties and seventies, not a one > is at all concerned about the bad things done by the KGB in the > sixties and seventies. Besides the obvious hypocricy, part of that comes from the unfortunate tendency to care about "what's close to home" at the expense of a more significant larger picture. Come to think of it, I can't believe more isn't on the web about the horrors of the Stasi; did you catch the stories about how they contaminated people with radiation as a form of tracking and had a huge collection of little jars containing scent samples of all dissidents, in case they needed to round them up? Horrible, check it out. > Of course it is reasonable for people in the US to be more concerned > about US spies that Soviet spies, since the US spies mostly on US > people, I don't know if that's really true of the US, I'm sure it depends on which agency you're talking about. Given that the NSA is so much larger than the rest of the agencies combined, it stands to reason that tips the scale toward "foreign", but I could be wrong. Not something you can really know without hard data. > and the Soviet Union spied mostly on russian people, but still, > zero relevant hits? I find that a little odd. This gives me reason to > doubt the sincerity, and therefore the truthfulness, of those > reporting COINTELPRO No doubt, chalk it up to the crap factor. The original documents say a lot though. ~Faustine. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Jul 17 17:44:22 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: burning a flag is a hate crime In-Reply-To: <3B54B810.803860A0@fbi.gov> from "Al Qaeda" at Jul 17, 2001 03:11:28 PM Message-ID: <200107180044.f6I0iM503777@artifact.psychedelic.net> > "Vandalizing a no-parking sign is a misdemeanor, but burning a flag is a > hate crime" > Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill Any flag, or just an AmeriKKKan flag? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Jul 17 16:07:39 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:07:39 -0500 Subject: Computer detective talks about Levy evidence In-Reply-To: <010b01c10efd$62bdb880$908b273f@josephas> Message-ID: > > he alleges that computer seizure is now routinely done in all > > criminal cases no matter what the charge. Which is interesting if it's > > true. Technical investigators are routinely called in to examine computers in civil suits, even employer-employee disputes (home computers). Sadly, it can be a pretextual porn hunt. ~Aimee From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 16:29:53 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:29:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Programmer arrested for Defcon talk? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 17 Jul 2001 12:40:29 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Programmer arrested for Defcon talk? According to slashdot (http://www.slashdot.org/) a programmer was arrested for (apparently -- details on the cited web sites are sketchy) giving a talk at Defcon in Las Vegas describing how to break the encryption in certain Adobe PDF files. It is (apparently) claimed by Adobe that this was a violation of the DMCA. See: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/17/130226&mode=thread I'm not a big fan of /. -- they aren't particularly good at the whole fact checking thing -- but the story sounds intriguing. The real details may very well be quite different from what is portrayed. If anyone knows real details, I'd appreciate them. -- Perry E. Metzger perry at wasabisystems.com -- NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 16:35:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [alg] alg gpg/pgp keysigning party on Thur 07-26-01 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:59:30 -0500 From: Paul Elliott Reply-To: alg at austinlug.org To: alg Subject: [alg] alg gpg/pgp keysigning party on Thur 07-26-01 The ALG key signing party will take place on Thursday July 26 2001. In order to participate in the party, please take the following steps: (A) if you have not done so already, generate a GPG/PGP key for yourself. The precise command for this varies with your version of GPG/PGP. Consult the documentation for your version. (B) email your public key to me by noon the day before the party July 25. Please indicate in your subject line the nature of the message. For example, Subject: KEY FOR KEY-SIGNING PARTY. If you use more that one key you can submit more than one, but be reasonable. I will use these keys to prepare a list of key IDs and fingerprints which will facilitate the party. I will Xerox this list. (C) Bring 2 things to the party: (a) your GPG/PGP key fingerprint(s) This will be used to verify that people are being asked to sign the public key that you want them to sign. (b) Identification, preferably picture identification to prove that you are you. The party will be run according to the non-coercion principle. No one is required to bring any particular form of ID. However, the non-coercion principle works two ways. If that ID that you bring does not persuade other people that you are you, then they are not required to sign your KEY! My advice, try a drivers license if possible. ================================================================ AFTER THE PARTY, everyone will have a list of public keys and key finger prints that they have decided it is OK to sign. I will have added all the public keys that were sent to me to the public key servers. I will also email the public keys used in the party to this list, in case anyone does not have access to the public key servers. You will be able to get the public keys that you wish to sign from any public key server. They should sign these public keys and make the signatures public. Please email the signed public keys to me and I will compile the signed public keys for the use of ALG. Please use the subject line: Subject: SIGNED PUBLIC KEY FROM KEY SIGNING PARTY. I will also add these now SIGNED keys to the GPG/PGP public key servers. If you wish, you can also send the signed public keys to the public key servers your own self. -:) For more information on key signing parties in general, see: http://www.cryptnet.net/fdp/crypto/gpg-party.html http://www.herrons.com/kb2nsx/keysign.html -- Paul Elliott 1(512)837-9345 1(512)837-1096 pelliott at io.com PMB 181, 11900 Metric Blvd Suite J http://www.io.com/~pelliott/pme/ Austin TX 78758-3117 -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: URL: From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 16:41:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:41:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <200107172014.QAA07582@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Cypherpunks do something? > > Maybe start with the basics: a WWW site. > Doesn't Choate have a couple registered names for our use? I have cpunks.org registered for Austin Cypherpunks use...do you live in Austin? Is there anyone in Austin working on this project? > Okay, to get back to the subject: an explanation on how > to release these tools anonymously. Document why it is > necessary. It's not the reverse engineering that needs > to be moved to foreign outposts. Perhaps describe some > methodologies for selling it anonymously. Get some Plan 9 boxes up and running sharing resources, impliment a distributed anonymizer, impliment a distributed e-cash scheme, and enjoy! http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18 http://plan9.bell-labs.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 16:44:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:44:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Your kid's an asshole, and guess who's to blame? In-Reply-To: <200107172105.RAA10163@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > # http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/14/85942/3961 > % > % The question is, how do basically good people > % do such a great job of screwing up their kids? > % > % Again, the answer is MONEY. > # > # James Choate > # Product Certification - Operating Systems > # Staff Engineer > # 512-436-1062 > # jchoate at tivoli.com > > Well, that's brilliant. > > Is this part of your crackpot economic theories? Free market economics are crackpot? Hmmm..... > Is that why you've posted it? I didn't post 'it'. All I posted was the URL, the 'extra commentary' along with your mis-assignment of authorship is all your horse doodoo. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 16:50:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Besides the obvious hypocricy, part of that comes from the unfortunate > tendency to care about "what's close to home" at the expense of a more > significant larger picture. Come to think of it, I can't believe more isn't > on the web about the horrors of the Stasi; Do some research on the US Army in the 50's... To hark back to a older topic, Black Box and illegal street activity. Consider the "Boston Tea Party". -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From malmoeksjo at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 09:53:31 2001 From: malmoeksjo at yahoo.com (LOVE nberg Bernt) Date: 17 Jul 2001 18:53:31 +0200 Subject: One Card Express Message-ID: <200107171649.JAA28788@toad.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- (This safeguard is not inserted when using the registered version) -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1053 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 17 19:00:08 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:00:08 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:55 AM +0300 7/18/01, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: > >>When a foreign national can be arrested for a bit of coding which was >>developed (I assume) outside the US and never, by his actions (I assume) >>hit US soil well it really is time for the DMCA to go. > >On a more general level, is US law to be construed as granting personal >jurisdiction over anyone on the US soil, regardless of where the actual >crime was committed? I.e., if I do something wrong according to the Code, >I'd better stay the hell out of US? Yes, just as an American who commits some crime under German law, while in the U.S., had better avoid travelling to Germany...or even to Denmark. (Case a few years ago of the American arrested in Copenhagen and extradited to Germany because he had published in America material deemed a thoughtcrime in Germany.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 19:07:48 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. Message-ID: <20010718020748.56311.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> >Is there a legal fund developing for our wayward Russian or an anti-DMCA >fund? Am I giving EFF and CPSR a bad rap? Should we be giving them money >earmarked exclusively for anti-DMCA activities? Where is the usually >outspoken John Gilmore after his landmark essay on the topic? ( >http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html ) Where can reverse engineering be >conducted in the world anymore without felonies being leveled? Does anyone >care? EFF is doing it's thing, which was semi-effective and is now not much effective at all - I just don't see advances, just declines in freedoms. On the other side, encryption and strong anonymity render DMCA ineffective, but after 10 years of PGP and mixmasters only few thousand use any. So we want thinking to be legal while visible. What is left to do ? Maybe some clever propaganda along the lines "End of the world: russian arrested in US of A for thought crime". Or make it desirable to be prosecuted for thought crimes: send money directly to the russian. Sort of inverse AP - whoever gets arrested for DMCA gets paid. Buy some ad space in papers and get the message out. Running decent-size ads will take many K$. Maybe if a number of contributors insist on this EFF would coordinate it ? How does one round up contributors in cpunkish environment ? The issue here is to not preach to the choir. Preaching to sheeple is *expensive*, and the gain ("more freedom") is far away and very few will commit actual cash to it. Anyway, I may know some that would - how do we get EFF to do directed campaign ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From honig at sprynet.com Tue Jul 17 19:13:55 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:13:55 -0700 Subject: next, we ban cutlery In-Reply-To: References: <3B54998C.B9C285D6@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010717191355.0083db40@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:52 PM 7/17/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > >> I was looking at archery sites this morning, looking for a >>light recurve targe bow, and hit an Australian page that also had >>crossbows -- was shocked to see that you need a permit to buy these >>"prohibited weapons" there. Doesn't take much to make a crossbow, >>folks. Must be those Aussies watched Mad Max movies a few times too >>many, eh? >> > >No fed statutes on crossbows, but does anybody know how many states >have permit restrictions on them? > > Bear I believe Calif. has crossbow restrictions. What a surprise. No sword-canes or nunchucks, either. From bob at black.org Tue Jul 17 19:27:08 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:27:08 -0700 Subject: binding keys to meat makes our job so much easier.. Message-ID: <3B54F3FB.874F71A4@black.org> >From: Paul Elliott >In order to participate in the party, please take the following >steps: >(B) email your public key to me by noon the day before the party July 25. > Please indicate in your subject line the nature of the message. Please do not include anything that may confuse the Carnivore box on my ISP. > I will use these keys to prepare a list of key IDs and > fingerprints which will facilitate the party. I will Xerox > this list. My FBI handler gets a copy, of course. >(C) Bring 2 things to the party: > (b) Identification, preferably picture identification to > prove that you are you. Why should you need State Paperwork to assert that some chunk of meat wishes to associate with some PK? > The party will be run according to the non-coercion > principle. No one is required to bring any particular > form of ID. > > However, the non-coercion principle works two ways. > If that ID that you bring does not persuade other people > that you are you, then they are not required to sign > your KEY! > > My advice, try a drivers license if possible. Preferably someone else's. Why not bring some Draft Registration cards from the Post Office, too. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 17 19:27:59 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:27:59 -0700 Subject: All your prime bases are belong to us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:02 PM -0500 7/17/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 Oliver7870 at aol.com wrote: > >> remove my email from mailing list > >No. > >You made the mistake of "suscriving", now we 0wn you, aol boy... > All your prime bases are belong to us. BTW, I was not receiving Cypherpunks mail for several days, courtesy of my ISP deciding to implement some new policy on reverse DNS addresses (all mail from lne.com, which uses Verio, and mail from Eric Hughes, who uses ricochet.net, bounced at my ISP...probably a lot of other mail also never made it to me..so much for e-mail subpoenas, eh?). My ISP has now decided not to enforce this policy, thankfully. Anyway, I looked at the Cypherpunks HyperArchive to see if the list was still active. Mama Mia! More spam and crud and juvenalia than ever before. An unbelievable amount of crap. The lne.com scheme, which I think I had something to do with getting going, is best. It passes all mail from subscribers, plus mail from all known anonymous remailers. This allows uncensored traffic from any subscriber, as well as anonymized posts through remailers. (Few spammers use remailers.) I'm happy with lne.com's approach (thanks, Eric M.!). --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From bob at black.org Tue Jul 17 19:33:30 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:33:30 -0700 Subject: more on tax protest Message-ID: <3B54F579.20905A80@black.org> http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2001/7/17/122855 Tuesday, July 17, 2001 1:27 p.m. EDT Tennessee Radio Talker Sets Record Straight on Tax Protest Over the weekend Tennessee newspapers were filled with reports of a near-riot at the State Capitol on Friday, after two Nashville talk radio hosts exhorted their listeners to march on the Legislature in protest over plans for a new statewide income tax. WLAC-AM's Phil Valentine and WWTN-FM's Steve Gill's call to arms prompted what the Memphis Commercial Appeal described as a "sometimes violent" altercation between police and up to 2,000 protesters, an episode legislators called "harrowing and intimidating." "I was in fear for my safety last night," state senator David Fowler later told Gill. "I was afraid someone might get shot." Reports of widespread window breaking made the protesters seem even more riotous. But Valentine tells NewsMax.com that the disruption, small as it was, was the result of police overreaction - more than 100 cops, some clad in riot gear, who were summoned to the scene by Gov. Don Sundquist, who backs the tax hike. "I began my remote broadcast in front of the Capitol and the people kept coming," the Tennessee radio talker explained. "Suddenly, the Nashville Police moved in. One motorcycle cop began ticketing motorists for horn honking. They brought in cops on horseback. The state police donned riot gear." Only later did Valentine learn that, as he put it, "some idiot had thrown a rock through the reception area window of the governor's office." The incident sent state troopers into overdrive, the radioman told NewsMax.com. "Two different people in cars were pulled from their vehicles and handcuffed," Valentine said. "One was a gentleman who dared ask a cop his name after he witnessed him verbally abusing a woman in her car. The second was a mother, riding with her husband and 3-year-old daughter." According to the afternoon-drive-time talker, when the officer told the woman to go home she replied that it was her "constitutional right to protest." He shot back, "I'll show you a constitutional right." In a flash, the officer swung into action. According to Valentine, he began to "pull the woman from the passenger side of the car, then handcuffed her and threw her in the back of a squad car in front of her hysterical little girl." After the altercation, Valentine had both protesters on his show to describe their ordeals. Besides the folks he interviewed, Valentine says a local television news station caught a state trooper on videotape "choking one protester, then throwing him to the ground and dragging him by one foot while the guy showed no resistance." Tennessee media reports painting the demonstrators as a rabble-rousing mob hell-bent on violence are a complete distortion, the popular Nashville host insisted. "I was right in the middle of it. We had everything from soccer moms to grandmas and kids of all ages. It was more of a patriotic Fourth of July-type atmosphere than anything else." --------- "Ok. That's pretty much my limit." ---Black Unicorn From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Tue Jul 17 16:50:49 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange Message-ID: <20010717235049.A801225E11@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #431 (July 17, 2001) ______________________________________________________ Your Membership Daily Exchange >>>>>>>>>>> Issue #431 <> 07-17-01 <<<<<<<<<<<< Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________ Removal/Unsubscribe instructions are included at the bottom for members who do not wish to receive additional issues of this publication. ______________________________________________________ You are a member in at least one of these programs - You should be in them all! http://www.BannersGoMLM.com http://www.ProfitBanners.com http://www.CashPromotions.com http://www.MySiteInc.com http://www.TimsHomeTownStories.com http://www.FreeLinksNetwork.com http://www.MyShoppingPlace.com http://www.BannerCo-op.com http://www.PutPEEL.com http://www.PutPEEL.net http://www.SELLinternetACCESS.com http://www.Be-Your-Own-ISP.com http://www.SeventhPower.com ______________________________________________________ Today's Special Announcement: THE STARTLING TRUTH ABOUT BRANDING!! ALL the BIG Internet Marketing 'Stars' have one thing in common - they make their fortunes because they've taken the time to Brand NOT just their products, but Themselves!! Rick Beneteau's new book teaches you how, and he also asked many of the top Internet personalities to share their success secrets with you. Click here to begin Branding YOU and Breaking the Bank!! http://www.roibot.com/w.cgi?R23376_zbb ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ >> Q & A QUESTIONS: - How can I get a response to my advertising? ANSWERS: - ScanDisk and Defrag aren't working. What do I do? B. Bilton: Conflicts w/ software can cause problems - Any help with Cold Fusion? D. Bridgewater: You can hide the query string >> MEMBER SHOWCASES >> MEMBER *REVIEWS* - Sites to Review: #131, #132, #133, #134 & #135! - Site #130 Reviewed! ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<< Do you a burning question about promoting your website, html design, or anything that is hindering your online success? Submit your questions to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Are you net savvy? Have you learned from your own trials and errors and are willing to share your experience? Look over the questions each day, and if you have an answer or can provide help, post your answer to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com Be sure to include your signature file so you get credit (and exposure to your site). QUESTIONS: From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 17 19:53:16 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:53:16 -0700 Subject: next, we ban cutlery In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010717191355.0083db40@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: David Honig wrote: > I believe Calif. has crossbow restrictions. > > What a surprise. > > No sword-canes or nunchucks, either. The VERY poorly designed California Statutes site can be found at: http://leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html Just click on "All," put your favorite weapon in the search window and search. (Try "dirk" or "snee.") S a n d y From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Jul 17 20:01:24 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:01:24 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: References: <004201c10ee4$88f403b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B549994.1167.2217E3A@localhost> -- On 18 Jul 2001, at 0:55, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > On a more general level, is US law to be construed as granting > personal jurisdiction over anyone on the US soil, regardless of > where the actual crime was committed? I.e., if I do something > wrong according to the Code, > I'd better stay the hell out of US? US law is often construed as encompassing the whole world. US judges tend to believe they can punish anyone anywhere for violating US law. This failing is not limited to the US. The french tend to the same delusion. It is quite difficult for government officials to comprehend the concept of dealing with equals, and often they just do not get it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 6gSy4Y0z9ue33pDKeFwyzeM5elboNp2slIKTcX4z 4ujXVIoMs+xOSrPo7Igk7A/xMOmINtm/7qMlVAVRH From cyr_francois at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 17:02:30 2001 From: cyr_francois at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?RnJhbudvaXMgQ3ly?=) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:02:30 -0400 Subject: remove my email from mailing list Message-ID: remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cyr_francois at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 17:02:41 2001 From: cyr_francois at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?RnJhbudvaXMgQ3ly?=) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:02:41 -0400 Subject: remove my email from mailing list Message-ID: remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cyr_francois at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 17:02:51 2001 From: cyr_francois at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?RnJhbudvaXMgQ3ly?=) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:02:51 -0400 Subject: remove my email from mailing list Message-ID: remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list remove my email from mailing list _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 17:05:05 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your kid's an asshole, and guess who's to blame? Message-ID: <200107180005.UAA29264@www3.aa.psiweb.com> # http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/14/85942/3961 % % The question is, how do basically good people % do such a great job of screwing up their kids? % % Again, the answer is MONEY. # # James Choate # Product Certification - Operating Systems # Staff Engineer # 512-436-1062 # jchoate at tivoli.com GO wrote: # # Well, that's brilliant. # # Is this part of your crackpot economic theories? KAOS wrote: # # Free market economics are crackpot? Once again, you can't answer a simple question. Once again, you responded with a cryptic question. You are the only person for whom it is not cryptic. No one knows what you're talking about, why you posted it, why you pester us. GO wrote: > Is that why you've posted it? KAOS wrote: # # I didn't post 'it'. All I posted was the URL, the 'extra # commentary' along with your mis-assignment of authorship # is all your horse doodoo. All your stuff was clearly attributed with a '#'. The central thesis of the article whose URL you posted was "MONEY" was responsible for screwed up kids. When asked about it, you utterly failed to communicate why your posted the URL, what your position was on the article you posted about. You are incoherent regarding the articles you yourself are posting. Is it any wonder you are hated? From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 18:11:50 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:11:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Burning a flag is a hate crime... Message-ID: Isn't making a law against burning the flag equally a demonstration of hate? The land of political and religious freedom indeed. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 18:23:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:23:35 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - FBI missing computers, weapons - July 17, 2001 Message-ID: <3B54E517.80431643@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/17/FBI.computers/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 17 18:30:21 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:30:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: How to manage the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (Really) Message-ID: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr [Note to admins: anyone interested in collaborating on a little cron'ed notice that has (un)sub dir's as well as brief blurbs about each of the nodes and their policies?] -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From r.duke at hushmail.com Tue Jul 17 13:38:40 2001 From: r.duke at hushmail.com (r.duke at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:38:40 +0000 (GMT+01:00) Subject: next, we ban cutlery Message-ID: <200107171939.MAA23076@user5.hushmail.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1280000/1280406.stm "A Liberal Democrat MP who was slashed by a Samurai sword has called for curbs on the weapons after a second attack in his constituency." That's the second in a year, mind you. I'd write more, but I have to get downstairs and chop some carrot sticks before they take away my kitchen knives. -- Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com From offers at snowball.ymc0.net Tue Jul 17 18:52:12 2001 From: offers at snowball.ymc0.net (Snowball.com Networks) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:52:12 -0500 Subject: Thank you for joining IGN.com Message-ID: <595ed01c10f2c$436625b0$3901d20a@yesmail.net> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message is brought to you by Snowball.com Networks. We appreciate your membership. To modify your account, please see *Member Services* below. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We have on record that you want to receive custom offers and information from IGN.com. Your account has been activated. Now you will receive great offers and information on subjects YOU choose. You can change your interests anytime, just click the link below. Your user ID and password are: Your user ID is: cypherpunks3316 Your password is: firmmath Your are on your way to getting the coolest offers and promotions, brought to you by IGN. Thank you Snowball.com Networks ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *MEMBER SERVICES* To access your account, change your interests or unsubscribe from Snowball.com Networks, just click on the following link http://your.yesmail.net/default.asp?PID=500331&SUBC=33JW55FJ5E&UID=509772717 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From hseaver at ameritech.net Tue Jul 17 18:56:50 2001 From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:56:50 -0500 Subject: next, we ban cutlery References: Message-ID: <3B54ECCB.6ECAAA2@ameritech.net> I see a notice in Cabela's catalogue that "The sale of bows and crossbows is restricted by law in the following area's: North Carolina, New Jersey, New York city and vicinity." Surprising about NC, but not the other two. Surprising also that CA isn't included. So you need a permit to buy a bow in NY? Somebody should develop a plan book of easy to make weaponry and dump a million copies on the streets of NY. We built one once with a car spring -- put a piece of re-rod through a concrete brick wall. Ray Dillinger wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > I was looking at archery sites this morning, looking for a > >light recurve targe bow, and hit an Australian page that also had > >crossbows -- was shocked to see that you need a permit to buy these > >"prohibited weapons" there. Doesn't take much to make a crossbow, > >folks. Must be those Aussies watched Mad Max movies a few times too > >many, eh? > > > > No fed statutes on crossbows, but does anybody know how many states > have permit restrictions on them? > > Bear -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html From measl at mfn.org Tue Jul 17 19:02:47 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:02:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: remove my email from mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 Oliver7870 at aol.com wrote: > remove my email from mailing list No. You made the mistake of "suscriving", now we 0wn you, aol boy... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From elvin-velez at home.com Tue Jul 17 18:20:11 2001 From: elvin-velez at home.com (elvin velez) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:20:11 -0400 Subject: remove my email from mailing list References: Message-ID: <000401c10f27$caedae40$b6192818@bens1.pa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran癟ois Cyr" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 20:02 Subject: remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > remove my email from mailing list > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Jul 17 18:34:00 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Philip Morris, in the news Message-ID: <200107180134.VAA25873@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Tim May wrote: # # I've been telling people this at parties for many years: since most # smokers are productive up until the time they develop lung cancer # (maybe more so, due to the nicotine high), and because they typically # develop lung cancer after their most productive years but before # their declining years, smoking should be REQUIRED. # # The fact that lung cancer typically is not expensive to treat is a plus. # # Press reports of the above story are, as usual, missing the essential # truth of the point and are focusing on the "callousness" of the Giant # Corporations. What struck me, and perhaps I should have said so explicitly, was the contradiction between this advice to the Czech gov, versus the sworn Congressional testimony by the heads of the tobacco companies that they believed there was not enough evidence to say smoking causes disease. From Oliver7870 at aol.com Tue Jul 17 18:43:25 2001 From: Oliver7870 at aol.com (Oliver7870 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:43:25 EDT Subject: remove my email from mailing list Message-ID: remove my email from mailing list From alqaeda at fbi.gov Tue Jul 17 23:29:30 2001 From: alqaeda at fbi.gov (Al Qaeda) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:29:30 -0700 Subject: Moscow Times 4 Jul 01 on Elcomsoft vs. Adobe Message-ID: <3B552CCA.53D2ABCC@fbi.gov> E-Book Duplicators Hit Barnes & Noble By Yury Granovsky VEDOMOSTI Barnes & Noble.com, the No. 1 U.S. online book store, halted the sale of electronic books after Russian company Elcomsoft began selling a program to illegally copy text. Under pressure from Adobe Systems, which created the protective software for the e-books, Elcomsoft was compelled to discontinue the sales of its hacker program. It is now distributing that program for free. Barnes & Noble.coms electronic book department was closed from June 26 to 27 until Adobe provided new protection for e-books. Mark Fagnitno, vice president of Barnes & Noble.com, said the Internet store incurred considerable losses due to the pause in sales of new bestsellers by Arthur C. Clark and Steven King, but he did not give any figures. A m a z o n . c o m , frightened by the actions of the Russian company, revamped all Adobe protective software a day later. There are several formats for electronic books with protection from unauthorized copying. The most popular formats belong to Adobe Systems, Microsoft and Gemstar. The user installs a free program into his computer Adobes eBook Reader, for example which generates a personal electronic certificate that is assigned to a particular personal computer. While buying a book via the Internet, the user sends the online store his certificate number. The store then makes a copy of the electronic text for the user which cannot be copied, printed or transferred to other computers. However, Elcomsoft developed Advanced eBook Processor software, which can convert purchased books into PDF, a widely disseminated format that makes books available to everyone and for any purpose without actually hacking the Internet stores servers. This software was offered for sale in late June at www.elcomsoft.com. Alexander Katalov, Elcomsofts general manager, said Adobe itself is to blame since it marketed a faulty product. Adobe is promoting an incomplete technology and isnt concerned about its safety. No wonder that in an analogy with the musical format MP3, the electronic book world has produced its own Napster and MP3.com, he said. Katalov added that his software people could crack the new Adobe ebook protection within half an hour maximum. Katalov does not consider his actions blameworthy. He says that Advanced eBook Processor, which sold for $100 each, was often purchased by people with poor eyesight since Adobes e-book software did not permit the use of programs for reading text out loud. Elcomsofts web site also offers programs for helping users recall the passwords of ICQ and of Microsoft Word documents in other words, for cracking the programs. Neither of the companies have brought a lawsuit against Elcomsoft. However, Verio a U.S. company that is Elcomsofts provider along with Digital River, the owner of RegNow, through which the Russian company conducts business took Adobes side after receiving a letter June 25 that described the situation. Verio has terminated the site of the company; later, www.elcomsoft.com had to shift to a new provider. Digital River has stopped taking orders for the disputed program. Under pressure, Elcomsoft has stopped marketing the software which is now available for free. We have published the web address from which the program can be taken for free, Katalov said, and in the future we will probably publish the cracking algorithm for eBook. In this case there could be no claims on the company whatsoever, said Viktor Mashchenkov, the operating partner of eBuro.ru, a juridical web site. According to current Russian judicial practice, one cant be tried for a web address. From alqaeda at fbi.gov Tue Jul 17 23:31:19 2001 From: alqaeda at fbi.gov (Al Qaeda) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:31:19 -0700 Subject: first net advert for hitman arrested (fwiw) Message-ID: <3B552D37.6845920F@fbi.gov> from Moscow Times 4 Jul 01 via http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=1532 Moscow police have arrested a contract killer who advertised his services via the Internet in the first such detention in Russia, Itar-Tass reported Tuesday. The Moscow police department for fighting high-technology crimes spotted the advertisement in May, department chief Dmitry Chepchugov was quoted as saying. Moscow agents disguised as potential clients corresponded with the alleged hit man, and when they established that he resided in Samara, about 900 kilometers southeast of Moscow, they alerted local police. The man, whose name was not disclosed, was handcuffed after undercover agents paid him several thousands of dollars and heard him stating the date of the assassination they pretended to be asking for, Chepchugov said. He added that the Internet was becoming increasingly popular with Russian criminals for financial frauds. He said law enforcement agencies of Russia and the United States were jointly investigating a case in which Russians allegedly hacked U.S. credit card information. The hacker group stole some $400 million from U.S. credit card holders just over the past few months, the officer said. Russian hackers have been involved in several high-profile computer- related crimes worldwide. Hitman Busted After Advertising on Internet From bounty.org at bounty.org Tue Jul 17 23:48:32 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:48:32 -0700 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195349.00dbec70@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712195349.00dbec70@flex.com> Message-ID: At 7:55 PM -1000 7/12/01, Reese wrote: >This makes it likely for Ashcrap's justice department to drop the case, >which means a clear 2nd Amendment issue will not go to the SCoTUS, which >means as soon as this case is out of the pipeline, they can "change" >their policy just like they just did. Especially if the Dem's take over >the House next year. Bingo. Score one for Reese. >We seem to be living in interesting times. Chinese curses I can live without. From bounty.org at bounty.org Tue Jul 17 23:53:31 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:53:31 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <01071223453002.20067@minerva.rearviewmirror.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> <01071223453002.20067@minerva.rearviewmirror.org> Message-ID: At 11:45 PM -0700 7/12/01, Matt Beland wrote: >It's a moot point anyway, but for the record, the Outer Space Treaty of 1967 >states that no nation may claim jurisdiction or territory beyond the limits >of Earth's atmosphere, which is spelled out in a separate treaty as being >100km altitude above mean sea level. > >So even if airlines do pay fees for overflying nations - which seems >rediculous but no more so than thousands of other laws - it wouldn't apply to >satellites. Not all nations are signatories to that treaty, and not all nations that did sign that treaty are the same country today. As soon as some socialist piece of shit (well, more like fascist, but why quibble over distinctions without a difference) aquires the ability to knock commercial sats out of orbit and convinces a significant portion of the population in his/her country that they can extort money from US companies, they're going to try. From alison.success at time.net.my Tue Jul 17 23:54:46 2001 From: alison.success at time.net.my (SFI SEEKER) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:54:46 -0700 Subject: $ 10 PROGM GIVES YOU $ 1130 EVERY MONTH Message-ID: <200107180654.XAA28381@ecotone.toad.com> Hello. >> Hundreds of thousands of people in business today, whether for themselves or others, need to KNOW THIS. >> 177 Million Internet Users now - NEED IT >> 377 Million Internet Users projected for 2003 - NEED IT >> Recession Proof ! >> Only US $ 10...which becomes US $ 1130 residual monthly income there is None Other...THIS IS IT! *********************************************************** To earn 4 figures per month with just $ 10 investment, reply to this email with "SEEKER" in the Subject Line. *********************************************************** Have A Great Day! Thank you & God Bless You! Alison P/S : Even if recession comes, protect yourself. ********************************************************** If you do not wish to receive any mail from me, please reply with "REMOVE" in the Subject Line. ********************************************************** From alison.success at time.net.my Tue Jul 17 23:54:47 2001 From: alison.success at time.net.my (SFI SEEKER) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:54:47 -0700 Subject: $ 10 PROGM GIVES YOU $ 1130 EVERY MONTH Message-ID: <200107180654.XAA28382@ecotone.toad.com> Hello. >> Hundreds of thousands of people in business today, whether for themselves or others, nto KNOW THIS. >> 177 Million Internet Users now - NEED IT >> 377 Million Internet Users projected for 2003 - NEED IT >> Recession Proof ! >> Only US $ 10...which becomes US $ 1130 residual monthly income there is None Other...THIS IS IT! *********************************************************** To earn 4 figures per month with just $ 10 investment, reply to this email with "SEEKER" in the Subject Line. *********************************************************** Have A Great Day! Thank you & God Bless You! Alison P/S : Even if recession comes, protect yourself. ********************************************************** If you do not wish to receive any mail from me, please reply with "REMOVE" in the Subject Line. ********************************************************** From bounty.org at bounty.org Wed Jul 18 00:10:10 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:10:10 -0700 Subject: violent antitax protest/riot in US In-Reply-To: <20010715214053.A19454@cluebot.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010714111727.008fda10@pop.sprynet.com> <20010715214053.A19454@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 9:40 PM -0400 7/15/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >This is amazing. If anything like this was even attempted in DC, >we'd have dozens of federal agencies, and perhaps armed troops, >converging on the U.S. Capitol. They had that happen in Nashville as well. The Cops showed up minutes into the demonstration and started arresting people. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Jul 18 00:20:16 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:20:16 -0700 Subject: Goodies To Go #139: Steganography Message-ID: From decoy at iki.fi Tue Jul 17 14:55:29 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:55:29 +0300 (EEST) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <004201c10ee4$88f403b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: >When a foreign national can be arrested for a bit of coding which was >developed (I assume) outside the US and never, by his actions (I assume) >hit US soil well it really is time for the DMCA to go. On a more general level, is US law to be construed as granting personal jurisdiction over anyone on the US soil, regardless of where the actual crime was committed? I.e., if I do something wrong according to the Code, I'd better stay the hell out of US? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Tue Jul 17 14:55:29 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:55:29 +0300 (EEST) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <004201c10ee4$88f403b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: >When a foreign national can be arrested for a bit of coding which was >developed (I assume) outside the US and never, by his actions (I assume) >hit US soil well it really is time for the DMCA to go. On a more general level, is US law to be construed as granting personal jurisdiction over anyone on the US soil, regardless of where the actual crime was committed? I.e., if I do something wrong according to the Code, I'd better stay the hell out of US? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From Alten at home.com Wed Jul 18 02:31:00 2001 From: Alten at home.com (Alex Alten) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:31:00 -0700 Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010718023100.012fcfc8@mail> Does anyone know where I could purchase or get the papers submitted to the Fast Software Encryption Workshop 2001? Springer-Verlag does not have it available for purchase yet. I looked at the Web site (url below) and emailed the 2 Japanese fellows apparently running it but they have yet to respond. Any pointers or help would be most appreciated. I'm cc'ing cyperpunks and cryptography mailing lists as well. http://www.venus.dti.ne.jp/~matsui/FSE2001/ Thanks, - Alex -- Alex Alten Alten at Home.Com From alison.success at time.net.my Wed Jul 18 03:28:15 2001 From: alison.success at time.net.my (SFI SEEKER) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:28:15 -0700 Subject: $ 10 PROGM GIVES YOU $ 1130 EVERY MONTH Message-ID: <200107181028.f6IASF121892@rigel.cyberpass.net> Hello. >> Hundreds of thousands of people in business today, whether for themselves or others, need to KNOW THIS. >> 177 Million Internet Users now - NEED IT >> 377 Million Internet Users projected for 2003 - NEED IT >> Recession Proof ! >> Only US $ 10...which becomes US $ 1130 residual monthly income there is None Other...THIS IS IT! *********************************************************** To earn 4 figures per month with just $ 10 investment, reply to this email with "SEEKER" in the Subject Line. *********************************************************** Have A Great Day! Thank you & God Bless You! Alison P/S : Even if recession comes, protect yourself. ********************************************************** If you do not wish to receive any mail from me, please reply with "REMOVE" in the Subject Line. ********************************************************** From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Tue Jul 17 18:31:08 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:31:08 +0200 Subject: Condit Censured, To Be Flogged Message-ID: WASHINGTON, D.C. July 17 (Reuters) - Rep. Gary Condit's popularity rating took another dip today when the U.S. House of Representatives voted to censure the errant Congressman and, in a surprise move, to have him publicly flogged next week at the George Washington Memorial Whipping Post in the Washington Mall. "We needed to send a message to the American people that we will no longer tolerate murderers in high public office in the United States. We hear what the American people is saying and we want to communicate in the clearest way possible that the Clinton Era is over." said House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R.). "Gary has been asking for this in so many different ways that I almost think he wants it. That is my only regret." Condit has not yet been convicted of murder, so the House acted under an obscure provision originally intended to keep minors out of the prison system. The Congressman will receive ten lashes from a trained employee of the Bureau of Prisons at high noon, July 23. After each stroke, one of the Ten Commandments will be read to, and then repeated by, Condit. Should any errors occur, the count will start again from the beginning. Government spokesmen were unsure whether the Commandments were to be read from the King James version of the Bible or in the original Hebrew. After the flogging, Condit will be confined to the public stocks for eight hours to be taunted by the crowd and pelted with rotten produce. "I don't like Mondays" was Condit's only comment on the sentence. The family of Chandra Levy, Condit's suspected victim, declined an invitation to VIP seating at the event. "We appreciate and empathize with the sentiment of the U.S. Congress in this matter, but we would prefer to see the process of law properly followed. Condit is being punished for being another lying Bible-thumping scumbag, but he should be tried and punished for his actual crime. We would like to know what happened to our daughter." said Levy's father. The Levy family has been critical of the handling of the case by the Washington, D.C. police who are widely seen as having treated it differently from others. A D.C. police spokesman has hotly denied that interpretation, stating "It is the standard practice of our department to delay searching the home of a prime murder suspect with political influence for two months and then try to pin the crime on some black guy, or possibly claim the victim killed him or herself. Nobody is receiving special treatment." Condit spokesmen maintain that Condit has been falsely accused and is the victim of mass hysteria. "It would be hard to murder any young attractive woman in this city without finding a squirrely Congressman somehow involved who would lie about his relationship with her." Civil libertarians have expressed concern that Condit's punishment erodes the division between Church and State, a treasured American tradition. The ACLU has proposed that the Bill of Rights be substituted for the Ten Commandments, but has declined to challenge the punishment in court. Said a spokesman, "We have defended Nazis, Klansmen, child molesters, and Communists, but Rep. Condit has sunk so low that not even the ACLU is willing to touch him no matter what the merits of the case." The ACLU is rumored to be considering a challenge on the grounds that it is "cruel" to permit the Congressman to keep his life. The Bill of Rights proposal received a cool reception on Capitol Hill amid suggestions that Condit is not the only Congressman who would benefit from learning its provisions in a like manner. From summer357us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 18 04:54:40 2001 From: summer357us at yahoo.com (Making Money) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 04:54:40 Subject: THE BEST BULK E-MAIL PROGRAM ON THE NET Message-ID: <200107181149.f6IBnq124914@rigel.cyberpass.net> Hello Everyone, I like to Keep it short and simple !!!!! If you like using your Computer and you want to start making money , I have the programs. you will be your own boss and make your own hours Please E-mail me back at summer357us at yahoo.com with your , Name : Address: Telephone: And the best time to call, Thank you Making Money PS, If you like to be remove from this mailing list , Please send a E-mail to undo at n2money.com With the word remove in the subject line. From kerugr at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 04:55:57 2001 From: kerugr at hotmail.com (r grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 04:55:57 -0700 Subject: nsa key Message-ID: know i'm late to the party but cryptonyms website needs password anymore -i've heard disabling active scripting will render the nsakey disabled,any idea? ......brady -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Wed Jul 18 07:43:11 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: military pornography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: >Hitting a US Marine with a stick is not smart thing to do. She >took the cane and gave him drubbing. Within hours she was >out of the country, on 'medical' grounds. Her health was at >stake - the Saudis wanted to have her executed. Jeez. One problem here is that there's not a damn thing else she could have done. Once she got through boot camp, responding to a physical attack by *AT LEAST* incapacitating the attacker is nothing but a reflex action. Not hitting soldiers is basic survival instincts, almost no matter who trained them. Of course, the saudi probably couldn't wrap his brain around the combination of "female" and "soldier", so didn't understand what the hell he was doing. Bear From measl at mfn.org Wed Jul 18 05:45:03 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:45:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Goodies To Go #139: Steganography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If you have privacy, so > does the person sending around terrorist documents. I think we can all > agree that no one wants that. Really? > How much of your privacy are you > willing to give up so that those searching for a terrorist have any > opportunity at all. None. Zero. Zip. > Joe Burns, Ph.D. Where does this asshole teach - I need to make sure my kids aren't attending that school... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 08:04:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:04:59 -0700 Subject: George W. Bush on biochemwomdterror Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010718080439.0214cb80@mail.well.com> >7/17. President Bush also touched on cyberterrorism in his speech on world >trade. He stated that "The United States and her allies will pursue a >balance of world power that favors human freedom. This requires a new >strategic framework that moves beyond Cold War doctrines and addresses the >threats of a new century such as cyberterrorism, weapons of mass >destruction, missiles in the hands of those for whom terror and blackmail >are a very way of life." From georgemw at speakeasy.net Wed Jul 18 08:05:12 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:05:12 -0700 Subject: next, we ban cutlery In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010717191355.0083db40@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3B554338.6302.37BD3530@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 977 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Wed Jul 18 08:07:01 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I keep looking at the whole stego thing. But the basic problem remains the same. Stego relies on the *method* being secret, which stands in stark contrast to kerchoff's principle. I mean, sure, you can stego encrypted stuff so nobody who recovers it can read it, but if you use any of the "available" programs, there will always be utilities that can detect your encrypted stuff and, usually, extract it. In a proper stego system, the stegotext must be *undetectable* by people who don't have the key -- even if they have the stego program used. I don't know of any which meet that criteria. For one thing they mostly work on lowest-significant-bits and leave the rest of the carrier text alone. It's pretty simple to detect that the LSB's have increased entropy, or represent inconsistent gradients of color on the smallest scales. One thing that is an absolute dead giveaway, and I see a lot of stegograms out there that have this built in, is that in graphic files, the number of pixels is increased by interpolation, either in the digital camera/scanner, or after the image is made by a graphics editor, before the steganography is done. The problem with this is that interpolation is done by highly predictable algorithms which dictate the relationships of each pixel (including the LSB) to its neighbors. When you take this regular system of linear-equations-with-a-simultaneous-solution and then impose your stegotext on it, it stands out like a sore thumb. *sigh*. I will not use a stego system unless I write it first and my recipient has the only other copy. Because it's a matter of keeping the *method* secret, that's really the only way. Bear From bear at sonic.net Wed Jul 18 08:22:13 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: George W. Bush on biochemwomdterror In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010718080439.0214cb80@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>7/17. President Bush also touched on cyberterrorism in his speech on world >>trade. He stated that "The United States and her allies will pursue a >>balance of world power that favors human freedom. This requires a new >>strategic framework that moves beyond Cold War doctrines and addresses the >>threats of a new century such as cyberterrorism, weapons of mass >>destruction, missiles in the hands of those for whom terror and blackmail >>are a very way of life." Hmmm. There's a missing conjunction in the list. That's a signature usage that his father was famous for. I haven't been paying much attention to him, but it might be worthwhile to do some text analysis and see how much of this crap is being written by his father. On the other hand, it may be a signature usage he learned *from* george senior when he was just a kid. Bear From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Wed Jul 18 06:35:09 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:35:09 -0500 Subject: The Web's true digital divide Message-ID: http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=203267 James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From freematt at coil.com Wed Jul 18 05:45:18 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:45:18 -0400 Subject: Narconews Legal Briefs Number 165 Message-ID: From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Wed Jul 18 06:51:59 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:51:59 -0500 Subject: Tighter measures needed [Bruce Schneier plugs Linux to Senate Message-ID: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-07-17-012-20-SC-CY-MS James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From bob at black.org Wed Jul 18 09:25:27 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:25:27 -0700 Subject: problem no. 1 Message-ID: <3B55B877.54CB8B1@black.org> At 12:20 AM 7/18/01 -0700, A. Melon wrote: >Problem number one is that the mail from a terrorist group will not be >labeled as such. I highly doubt you're going to find >"BinLaden036 at yahoo.com". That means that using Carnivore as a set wiretap >will be difficult. It may happen that the FBI only knows that somewhere on >a network, there may be a terrorist. Problem number one is folks like you who accept the state denigration 'terrorist' without thinking. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Wed Jul 18 07:30:33 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:30:33 -0500 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds like legal centralism has pushed you to your limit, because you're a legal pluralist. ~Aimee From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 18 09:34:15 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:34:15 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:07 AM 7/18/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >I keep looking at the whole stego thing. But the basic problem >remains the same. Stego relies on the *method* being secret, >which stands in stark contrast to kerchoff's principle. I mean, >sure, you can stego encrypted stuff so nobody who recovers it >can read it, but if you use any of the "available" programs, >there will always be utilities that can detect your encrypted >stuff and, usually, extract it. 1. encrypted data is indisttinguishable from uniformly distributed noise 2. LSBs in digitizations of analog signals are noise 3. ignoring the nuance of different LSB distributions, how can you distinguish a stego'd from unaltered file? Stego by itself is much less interesting than stego'd encrypted data (with idenntifying headers stripped of course) That spam, mp3, or image could be merely a transport for more privledged info. Posting /reading to a public newsgroup solves traffic-analysis issues too. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Jul 18 07:14:58 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:14:58 -0400 Subject: military pornography Message-ID: > From: Al Qaeda[SMTP:alqaeda at fbi.gov] > Subject: military pornography > > "According to the military briefing Sgt. Holt received when she arrived, > any visible skin below the neck is considered pornography." > > http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010717-4503880.htm > > And we're defending these Saudi pig-fuckers? > A guy in my office served as a reserve medic in Saudi during our War to Defend Cheap Gasoline. One night, they had to make up papers to get a female Marine onto a medical transport out of the country on zero notice - she had - in public - worn her uniform with the sleeves rolled up in the proper military manner. A religious cop hit her with his cane. Hitting a US Marine with a stick is not smart thing to do. She took the cane and gave him drubbing. Within hours she was out of the country, on 'medical' grounds. Her health was at stake - the Saudis wanted to have her executed. For all that we (with justification) worry about the USG's penchant for killing it's citizens in cold blood, the governments of Saudi and Singapore kill their citizens at 10x the rate of the US. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Jul 18 07:14:58 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:14:58 -0400 Subject: military pornography Message-ID: > From: Al Qaeda[SMTP:alqaeda at fbi.gov] > Subject: military pornography > > "According to the military briefing Sgt. Holt received when she arrived, > any visible skin below the neck is considered pornography." > > http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010717-4503880.htm > > And we're defending these Saudi pig-fuckers? > A guy in my office served as a reserve medic in Saudi during our War to Defend Cheap Gasoline. One night, they had to make up papers to get a female Marine onto a medical transport out of the country on zero notice - she had - in public - worn her uniform with the sleeves rolled up in the proper military manner. A religious cop hit her with his cane. Hitting a US Marine with a stick is not smart thing to do. She took the cane and gave him drubbing. Within hours she was out of the country, on 'medical' grounds. Her health was at stake - the Saudis wanted to have her executed. For all that we (with justification) worry about the USG's penchant for killing it's citizens in cold blood, the governments of Saudi and Singapore kill their citizens at 10x the rate of the US. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Jul 18 07:21:44 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:21:44 -0400 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. Message-ID: Well, if Pinochet can be arrested in London, on the request of a French (or was it Spanish?) judge, over acts allegedly committed in Chile, I'd say yes. .... and don't forget the Norwegian who was arrested in Oslo for the deCSS code. Peter > ---------- > From: Sampo Syreeni[SMTP:decoy at iki.fi] > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 5:55 PM > To: Black Unicorn > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. > > On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: > > >When a foreign national can be arrested for a bit of coding which was > >developed (I assume) outside the US and never, by his actions (I assume) > >hit US soil well it really is time for the DMCA to go. > > On a more general level, is US law to be construed as granting personal > jurisdiction over anyone on the US soil, regardless of where the actual > crime was committed? I.e., if I do something wrong according to the Code, > I'd better stay the hell out of US? > > Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 > student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 18 10:56:43 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:56:43 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010718105643.0083e2b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:56 PM 7/18/01 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > >> 1. encrypted data is indisttinguishable from uniformly distributed noise > >Yes, but which natural data sources have that signature? None. I was glossing over how you should measure your (e.g., camera's) LSB stats then shape your ciphertext distribution that way. I also didn't mention the work by [???] on detecting stego, and about countermeasures to this detection. I also didn't mention how some stego does not use raw LSBs but interstitial places in complex encodings (e.g., mp3). I was only explaining the principle of how you don't need a 'secret method' to hide the existence of messages. >> 2. LSBs in digitizations of analog signals are noise > >Not uniformly distributed noise, unfortunately. Perhaps somebody should >put hardware entropy generators mixing white noise into multimedia steam >LSBs. People should definitely package stegano decoys into Open Source >streaming multimedia warez. Of course not uniformly distributed, you have to cook any source of noise to distill the pure stuff we covet. >> Stego by itself is much less interesting than stego'd encrypted data >> (with idenntifying headers stripped of course) > >The point of stego is not leaking the information that you're sending >other information. Yes. And as you point out correctly, doing this requires knowing something *clever* about the covertext. But it does not require *secret* algorithms, which is well known for not being robust. From bob at black.org Wed Jul 18 11:18:18 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:18:18 -0700 Subject: Agit Spam and other Citizen Actions [Adobe vs. Rationality] Message-ID: <3B55D2EA.F077854E@black.org> At 07:23 PM 7/18/01 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > >> How do you picket a virtual store? > >DoS? Oh, I forgot, it's a "crime". Sure, that's harshing on infrastructure. Bad hacker, no coffee. But something like search-engine poisoning is not a crime. Regular ole boycotts are not yet Conspiracies to Interfere With Interstate Trade. Hell, spamming with negative comments is still legal; what if the spam seemed to come from Adobe? What if the agit-spam seemed to come from, say, a near-name like AdobeCo.com? How about a little anonymous stock price rumor mongering? Probably Adobe is resistant to change their course; they prefer to sleep with the likes of the Valenti Mafia... -------- "I'm apoplectic at the sheer chutzpah." ---Stanton McCandlish From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Wed Jul 18 08:26:53 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:26:53 -0400 Subject: George W. Bush on biochemwomdterror In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:22:13AM -0700 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010718080439.0214cb80@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20010718112653.A4750@ils.unc.edu> On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:22:13AM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > > On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > >>7/17. President Bush also touched on cyberterrorism in his speech on world > >>trade. He stated that "The United States and her allies will pursue a > >>balance of world power that favors human freedom. This requires a new > >>strategic framework that moves beyond Cold War doctrines and addresses the > >>threats of a new century such as cyberterrorism, weapons of mass > >>destruction, missiles in the hands of those for whom terror and blackmail > >>are a very way of life." > > Hmmm. There's a missing conjunction in the list. That's a signature > usage that his father was famous for. I haven't been paying much > attention to him, but it might be worthwhile to do some text analysis > and see how much of this crap is being written by his father. > > On the other hand, it may be a signature usage he learned *from* > george senior when he was just a kid. Lots of the White House support staff (speech writers, etc.) are from his father's admistration and/or Reagan (or Nixon, in a few cases). I think this is a likelier explanation, but who knows? The idea that GWB senior taught GWB junior how to read, write and speak makes some questionable assumptions (i.e., that GWB junior *can* read, write and speak). -- Greg From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Wed Jul 18 09:32:59 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:32:59 -0500 Subject: Bush plans new approach to cyber-protection Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/07/18/technology.security.ap/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From amaha at vsnl.net Wed Jul 18 09:36:06 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:36:06 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107181636.f6IGa5613878@ak47.algebra.com> =========================================================================== The wisdom of the wise & the experience of the ages are perpetuated by quotations----Benjamin Disraeli =========================================================================== Would you like your family members,relatives,friends,colleagues to receive Thought-A-Day, free-of-cost, during evaluation period? Gift them this joyous experience. Please recommend their email addresses. Thank you. Director Fountain Of Inspiration From narconews at yahoogroups.com Wed Jul 18 05:05:06 2001 From: narconews at yahoogroups.com (narconews at yahoogroups.com) Date: 18 Jul 2001 12:05:06 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: [narconews] Number 165 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are 2 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. EFF legal brief defends Narco News From: "Alberto M. Giordano" 2. New Legal Briefs: Friday's Hearing Heats Up From: "Alberto M. Giordano" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 09:09:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:09:47 -0400 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <004201c10ee4$88f403b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574>; from unicorn@schloss.li on Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:18:42AM -0700 References: <200107171628.MAA07432@www9.aa.psiweb.com> <004201c10ee4$88f403b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010718120947.B21272@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:18:42AM -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: > When a foreign national can be arrested for a bit of coding which was > developed (I assume) outside the US and never, by his actions (I assume) > hit US soil well it really is time for the DMCA to go. Without quibbling with your sentiment, this isn't unique to the DMCA. Holocaust revisionism is a crime in Germany, I understand. If I ran my naziswereswell.com website from the U.S. as a U.S. citizen and made the mistake of traveling to Germany, I could easily be arrested. Let's not even talk about what would happen if Rushdie wanted to visit Iran. Similarly, U.S. law prohibits money laundering. If a known Russian money launderer visited the U.S., he'd likely be arrested. This is unremarkable. That's not even talking about kidnappings by U.S. agents. As for the DMCA, it says: "No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that (does the good stuff)." Nowhere does it limit its scope to Americans. As I wrote in an article in April, all this means is that cutting-edge security conferences will be held overseas, or maybe in Canada. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 09:13:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:13:09 -0400 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <20010718020748.56311.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>; from morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:07:48PM -0700 References: <20010718020748.56311.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010718121309.C21272@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:07:48PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > Buy some ad space in papers and get the message out. Running decent-size ads > will take many K$. Maybe if a number of contributors insist on this EFF would > coordinate it ? How does one round up contributors in cpunkish environment ? > The issue here is to not preach to the choir. Preaching to sheeple is > *expensive*, and the gain ("more freedom") is far away and very few will commit > actual cash to it. None of this will, of course, happen. It will join in the bitbucket the tens of thousands of other "cypherpunks should do this" ideas posted over the better part of the last decade. > > Anyway, I may know some that would - how do we get EFF to do directed campaign > ? Give them the money for it? -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 09:13:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:13:59 -0400 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:21:44AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010718121359.D21272@cluebot.com> On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:21:44AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > Well, if Pinochet can be arrested in London, on the request of a > French (or was it Spanish?) judge, over acts allegedly > committed in Chile, I'd say yes. > > .... and don't forget the Norwegian who was arrested in Oslo for > the deCSS code. Actually, Johansen was just questioned, not arrested. ObPhotos: see mccullagh.org for his appearance in NYC. -Declan From amaha at vsnl.net Wed Jul 18 10:19:59 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:19:59 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107181719.f6IHJw622889@ak47.algebra.com> Be wiser than other people if you can; but do not tell them so. -- Lord Chesterfield ======================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 09:23:45 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:23:45 -0400 Subject: All your prime bases are belong to us In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:27:59PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010718122345.H21272@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:27:59PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > The lne.com scheme, which I think I had something to do with getting > going, is best. It passes all mail from subscribers, plus mail from > all known anonymous remailers. This allows uncensored traffic from > any subscriber, as well as anonymized posts through remailers. (Few > spammers use remailers.) And also subscribers (like me) that use multiple accounts to post to the list. That requires manual intervention, but has worked well. > I'm happy with lne.com's approach (thanks, Eric M.!). Same here. I wouldn't be here without it -- thanks! -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 09:27:23 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:27:23 -0400 Subject: George W. Bush on biochemwomdterror In-Reply-To: <20010718112653.A4750@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:26:53AM -0400 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010718080439.0214cb80@mail.well.com> <20010718112653.A4750@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20010718122723.I21272@cluebot.com> It even seems to be an accurate transcription: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/07/20010717-2.html On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:26:53AM -0400, Greg Newby wrote: > On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:22:13AM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > >>7/17. President Bush also touched on cyberterrorism in his speech on world > > >>trade. He stated that "The United States and her allies will pursue a > > >>balance of world power that favors human freedom. This requires a new > > >>strategic framework that moves beyond Cold War doctrines and addresses the > > >>threats of a new century such as cyberterrorism, weapons of mass > > >>destruction, missiles in the hands of those for whom terror and blackmail > > >>are a very way of life." > > > > Hmmm. There's a missing conjunction in the list. That's a signature > > usage that his father was famous for. I haven't been paying much > > attention to him, but it might be worthwhile to do some text analysis > > and see how much of this crap is being written by his father. > > > > On the other hand, it may be a signature usage he learned *from* > > george senior when he was just a kid. > > Lots of the White House support staff (speech writers, etc.) > are from his father's admistration and/or Reagan (or Nixon, > in a few cases). I think this is a likelier explanation, but > who knows? > > The idea that GWB senior taught GWB junior how to read, write > and speak makes some questionable assumptions (i.e., that > GWB junior *can* read, write and speak). > -- Greg From remailer at anon.xg.nu Wed Jul 18 10:53:11 2001 From: remailer at anon.xg.nu (Public ) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:53:11 -0500 Subject: This Adobe stupidity... Message-ID: <799d62a0dbc4073b98b45dafc130fe0a@anon.xg.nu> Seems someone has slipped up. The elcomsoft site and the Adobe eBook processing software is still entirely available. Someone probably better mirror it quickly before the thugs recognize their error. http://www.elcomsoft.com From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 04:15:00 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:15:00 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: remove my email from mailing list In-Reply-To: <000401c10f27$caedae40$b6192818@bens1.pa.home.com> Message-ID: Someone is asking for a mailbomb? On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, elvin velez wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frangois Cyr" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 20:02 > Subject: remove my email from mailing list > > > > > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 04:15:00 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:15:00 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: remove my email from mailing list In-Reply-To: <000401c10f27$caedae40$b6192818@bens1.pa.home.com> Message-ID: Someone is asking for a mailbomb? On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, elvin velez wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frangois Cyr" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 20:02 > Subject: remove my email from mailing list > > > > > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > remove my email from mailing list > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From pzakas at toucancapital.com Wed Jul 18 10:17:04 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:17:04 -0400 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: see this link for papers on steganalysis: http://ise.gmu.edu/~njohnson/Steganography/ essentially, the papers assert that given our knowledge of how images and music files are encoded, and given information about how some of the popular steg. programs work, it's possible to detect the presence of hidden information and perhaps extract that information. this is very early stage work, so it doesn't provide all of the answers... phillip > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of David Honig > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 12:34 PM > To: Ray Dillinger > Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: RE: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. > > > > At 08:07 AM 7/18/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >I keep looking at the whole stego thing. But the basic problem > >remains the same. Stego relies on the *method* being secret, > >which stands in stark contrast to kerchoff's principle. I mean, > >sure, you can stego encrypted stuff so nobody who recovers it > >can read it, but if you use any of the "available" programs, > >there will always be utilities that can detect your encrypted > >stuff and, usually, extract it. > > 1. encrypted data is indisttinguishable from uniformly distributed noise > 2. LSBs in digitizations of analog signals are noise > 3. ignoring the nuance of different LSB distributions, how can you > distinguish a stego'd from unaltered file? > > Stego by itself is much less interesting than stego'd encrypted data > (with idenntifying headers stripped of course) > > That spam, mp3, or image could be merely a transport for more privledged > info. Posting /reading to a public newsgroup solves traffic-analysis > issues too. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 10:18:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:18:58 -0400 Subject: first net advert for hitman arrested (fwiw) In-Reply-To: <3B552D37.6845920F@fbi.gov>; from alqaeda@fbi.gov on Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:31:19PM -0700 References: <3B552D37.6845920F@fbi.gov> Message-ID: <20010718131858.A22078@cluebot.com> That's not the right URL. On Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:31:19PM -0700, Al Qaeda wrote: > from Moscow Times 4 Jul 01 > via http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=1532 > > Moscow police have arrested a contract > killer who advertised his services > via the Internet in the first such detention > in Russia, Itar-Tass reported Tuesday. > > The Moscow police department for > fighting high-technology crimes spotted > the advertisement in May, department > chief Dmitry Chepchugov was > quoted as saying. > Moscow agents disguised as potential > clients corresponded with the alleged > hit man, and when they established > that he resided in Samara, about > 900 kilometers southeast of Moscow, > they alerted local police. > The man, whose name was not disclosed, > was handcuffed after undercover > agents paid him several thousands > of dollars and heard him stating > the date of the assassination they pretended > to be asking for, Chepchugov > said. > He added that the Internet was becoming > increasingly popular with Russian > criminals for financial frauds. > He said law enforcement agencies > of Russia and the United States were > jointly investigating a case in which > Russians allegedly hacked U.S. credit > card information. > The hacker group stole some $400 > million from U.S. credit card holders > just over the past few months, the officer > said. > Russian hackers have been involved > in several high-profile computer- > related crimes worldwide. > Hitman Busted After Advertising on Internet From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 10:20:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:20:36 -0400 Subject: first net advert for hitman arrested (fwiw) In-Reply-To: <3B552D37.6845920F@fbi.gov>; from alqaeda@fbi.gov on Tue, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:31:19PM -0700 References: <3B552D37.6845920F@fbi.gov> Message-ID: <20010718132036.B22078@cluebot.com> This is better: Russian hitman advertised on Net Jul. 3, 2001 17:10 ET ... May, department chief Dmitry Chepchugov was quot ... t chief Dmitry Chepchugov was quoted as saying. Moscow a ... news.ninemsn.com.au/sci_tech/story_15302.asp (cached article) (more info about article) Russian script wrinkly on hacking charges May. 25, 2001 08:35 ET ... it card transactions. Dmitry Chepchugov, chief o ... ctions. Dmitry Chepchugov, chief of the Moscow city poli ... www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/19200.html (cached article) (more info about article) Russian hackers arrested May. 24, 2001 13:40 ET ... uter crime unit said. Dmitry Chepchugov, quoted ... t said. Dmitry Chepchugov, quoted by The Associated Pres ... www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/05/24/russia.hackers/index.html (cached article) (more info about article) From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 04:25:05 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:25:05 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: burning a flag is a hate crime In-Reply-To: <200107180044.f6I0iM503777@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" Hmm. Does The Law also apply to lettuce? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 04:25:05 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:25:05 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: burning a flag is a hate crime In-Reply-To: <200107180044.f6I0iM503777@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" Hmm. Does The Law also apply to lettuce? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Jul 18 13:31:02 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:31:02 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010712194617.00dc1c70@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010711175823.00971c50@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711202845.032a9740@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010711221515.00dc2100@flex.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010718132819.035c9e40@idiom.com> So how much does Cuban Air Traffic Control charge for U2 overflight support? 1960 - 2001, with some reasonable interest rates for late payments.... At 07:53 PM 07/12/2001 -1000, Reese wrote: >At 10:43 PM 7/11/01, Tim May wrote: > > >>One real world example of such. > > > >Learn to use a search engine. Search on the obvious terms, like > >"airlines overflight payments." > > > >The first such hit you will find in Google, one of hundreds, is: > > > >"FAA ESTIMATES CUBA OWES US$1 MILLION FOR OVERFLIGHT FEES- > >Information obtained from an inquiry to the Federal Aviation > >Administration (FAA) within the United States Department of > >Transportation by the U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council shows that > >Republic of Cuba government-operated Cubana Airlines and Republic of > >Cuba government-operated AeroCaribbean Airlines were invoiced > >approximately US$1 million by the FAA for the period May 1997 to 31 > >January 1998 for overflight fees." > > > > > >Is this enough for the "one real world example"? > >Is that datum from cubatrade.org or cubaonline.org? >How about from a real website? From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Jul 18 13:47:33 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:47:33 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010711175931.0096ba20@pop.sprynet.com> References: <000601c10a50$ae2694b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010718133806.02da65f0@idiom.com> >At 02:30 PM 7/11/01 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: > >No, the real question is who can knock down or render inoperable the OWNER > >of the satellite. But ownership is easily fixed - a few magic words from a lawyer (ok, with a lot of expensive research into tax and accounting issues first), and the satellite is owned by a Caribbean corporation owned by Hughes, so it's no longer physical property subject to Los Angeles property taxes. That doesn't mean a tax collector can't try to attach one of Hughes's buildings near LAX, but it becomes a much different problem. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 18 10:50:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:50:43 -0400 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:34:15AM -0700 References: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20010718135043.A23473@cluebot.com> Ah, but your assumptions are not quite right. See my Wired News article on steganalysis. -Declan On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:34:15AM -0700, David Honig wrote: > At 08:07 AM 7/18/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >I keep looking at the whole stego thing. But the basic problem > >remains the same. Stego relies on the *method* being secret, > >which stands in stark contrast to kerchoff's principle. I mean, > >sure, you can stego encrypted stuff so nobody who recovers it > >can read it, but if you use any of the "available" programs, > >there will always be utilities that can detect your encrypted > >stuff and, usually, extract it. > > 1. encrypted data is indisttinguishable from uniformly distributed noise > 2. LSBs in digitizations of analog signals are noise > 3. ignoring the nuance of different LSB distributions, how can you > distinguish a stego'd from unaltered file? > > Stego by itself is much less interesting than stego'd encrypted data > (with idenntifying headers stripped of course) > > That spam, mp3, or image could be merely a transport for more privledged > info. Posting /reading to a public newsgroup solves traffic-analysis > issues too. From bounce-investorsedge-1655339 at lyris.investorsedge.net Wed Jul 18 14:05:08 2001 From: bounce-investorsedge-1655339 at lyris.investorsedge.net (InvestorsEdge) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:05:08 -0700 Subject: Investors Edge Newsletter Message-ID: [BG Capital Group] July 18, 2001 Volume 1 Issue 5 [Image] Dear Investor The CEO Of Apogee Companies, An Affiliated Group Of Companies Owned By Roy P. Disney, Will Join The Board Of Directors Of The Neptune Society Tom Camp, a prominent and nationally renowned leader in business, has accepted a position on the Neptune Society's Board of Directors effective immediately. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE COMPANY CONTACT: Gary R. Loffredo, Director (800) 535-7935 Tom Camp, CEO of the Apogee Companies, Owned By Roy P. Disney, Accepts a Position on The Neptune Society's Board of Directors BURBANK, Calif., July 18 /PRNewswire/ The Neptune Society, Inc. (OTC Bulletin Board: NTUN) one of the country's largest publicly traded cremation specialists, announced today that Tom Camp, Chief Executive Officer of The Apogee Companies, a group of affiliated companies owned by Roy P. Disney, has accepted a position on its Board of Directors, effective immediately. "The Board of Directors of any successful corporation must consist of people with diverse backgrounds, and complimentary skills that are needed to run an organization in today's competitive environment. For The Neptune Society, this includes Directors with financial, legal, business and marketing expertise. We are pleased to have Mr. Camp join our team. His previous experience in guiding companies to growth and development will be invaluable to us as we continue to lead The Neptune Society to new levels,'' said Marco Markin, Neptune's CEO and Chairman of the Board. Mr. Camp's professional background ranges from holding a position as the Director of Programs for the Nebraska Safety Counsel to working as an attorney for Gang, Tyre, Ramer & Brown, Inc., a premiere entertainment law firm, to his current position as CEO, Secretary and General Counsel of The Apogee Companies. Mr. Camp has been a part of the Apogee Companies, its predecessors and affiliates, since the company's formation in 1991. In addition to his current status at Apogee, Mr. Camp also currently serves as a Director of Hanna Car Wash Systems International, LLC. Mr. Camp has also previously served as a Director of Micromonitors, Inc. "His background as an attorney and business executive, as well as his experience in private equity investments from both a legal and business perspective make him an incredible choice for this position on Neptune's Board of Directors,'' said David Schroeder, Neptune Society's President. "We are looking forward to working with Tom in the future, and being able to make full use of the resources and knowledge that he can provide to us.'' About The Neptune Society Headquartered in Burbank, CA., The Neptune Society Inc. is one of North America's largest cremation specialists, and is the only publicly traded company dealing solely in cremation services. The Neptune Society, operating for nearly three decades with locations in California, Florida, New York, Washington, Iowa, Oregon and Arizona has provided thousands of cremation services and currently has close to 60,000 active contracts and nearly $40 million in trust in its unique Pre-Need program. The Neptune Society's goal is to provide a simple, dignified and economic alternative to the traditional funeral burial service system. Disclaimer: This press release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Readers/Investors are cautioned that the forward- looking statements are inherently uncertain, including statements related to the Company's business strategy, success of its acquisitions, its ability to integrate its current business strategies into its existing operations and the Company's expectations for future success. Actual performance and results of operations may differ materially from those projected or suggested. The forward-looking statements contained herein represent the Company's judgment as of the date of this release, and the Company cautions the reader not to place undue reliance on such statements. These forward-looking statements should not be reprinted, reiterated nor considered an inducement for investment. ### ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Neptune Society Highlights *** Key Investment Considerations *** The Neptune Society簧 is the only public pure play in the cremation segment of the death-care services industry and the company benefits from extensive goodwill from its reputation and high visibility brand name built during its 27-year history. The Neptune Society recently received an 'Aggressive Buy' recommendation from Banyan Capital Markets with an $8 target price. The compelling value proposition for cremation is its simple, dignified, environmentally friendly and economical ($799 to $1,299) compared to ($5,000+) for a traditional burial service . Cremation service revenues were $2,242,000 for the three months that ended March 31, 2001 compared to $1,328,000 in 2000, nearly double the same period last year. The Neptune Society provided 6,639 cremations in 2000 and has already provided 5,098 in the first five months of 2001, that is double the same period last year with a very conservative projected total for 2001 to be approximately 7,400. The Neptune Society's new management team, assembled since 1999, has substantial industry expertise. The management has implemented a multi-pronged marketing strategy focused on selling preened cremation plans. Including direct sales over their Web site, the strategy also includes direct mail of approximately six million pieces being sent in 2001 and the support of five sales managers with approximately 200 independent, commission-only sales representatives providing follow-up. The Neptune Society serves customers in 35 major metro areas with 16 offices located in 6 states (CA, FL, WA, OR, NY and IA), excluding the corporate offices and a dedicated call center with 20 telemarketers in Tempe, AZ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For more information, contact: Gary R. Loffredo (800) 535-7935 Corporate Investor Relations [Image] The Neptune Society Corporate Headquarters 3500 W. Olive Suite # 1430 Burbank, CA 91505 Telephone: 888-637-8863 E-mail: info at neptunesociety.com Visit The Neptune Society on the Web: Click here We invite you to investigate the Neptune Society, trading symbol NTUN, by using the following links. Links to more information: Recent SEC Filings click here Click here for Financial Chart For Trading Technicals click here For current stock quote click here Disclaimer: The information contained herein is based on news releases or other reports written and disseminated entirely by the subject company. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which Investors Edge has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. Although Investors Edge has not been compensated for dissemination and posting of this information, Investors Edge, its owners, agents affiliates and employees may from time to time have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. This constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject company. Write or call Investors Edge for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. Investors Edge and its owners, agents and employees are not investment advisors and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Investors Edge (Copyright 2001.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Safe Harbor Statement: This press release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Readers/Investors are cautioned that the forward- looking statements are inherently uncertain, including statements related to the Company's business strategy, success of its acquisitions, its ability to integrate its current business strategies into its existing operations and the Company's expectations for future success. Actual performance and results of operations may differ materially from those projected or suggested. The forward-looking statements contained herein represent the Company's judgment as of the date of this release, and the Company cautions the reader not to place undue reliance on such statements. These forward-looking statements should not be reprinted, reiterated nor considered an inducement for investment. Copyright 穢 2001 Investors Edge --- You are currently subscribed to investorsedge as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-investorsedge-1655339N at lyris.investorsedge.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13321 bytes Desc: not available URL: From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Jul 18 14:37:18 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:37:18 -0700 Subject: Who can tax a satellite? References: <000601c10a50$ae2694b0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574><3B4C77A4.99164A08@lsil.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010718133806.02da65f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <00d001c10fd1$d252d570$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Such a transfer would cause the entire value of the satellite to be taxed as income to the selling company in at the end of the fiscal year. Selling the satellite to an island managed firm for $1 isn't going to fly. Fair market value will be assessed at the IRS's sole discretion and subject only to an (expensive and normally futile) appeal to the U.S. Tax Court. Bad move. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stewart" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Who can tax a satellite? > >At 02:30 PM 7/11/01 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: > > >No, the real question is who can knock down or render inoperable the OWNER > > >of the satellite. Mr. Stewart replied: > But ownership is easily fixed - a few magic words from a lawyer > (ok, with a lot of expensive research into tax and accounting issues first), > and the satellite is owned by a Caribbean corporation owned by Hughes, > so it's no longer physical property subject to Los Angeles property taxes. > That doesn't mean a tax collector can't try to attach one of Hughes's > buildings near LAX, but it becomes a much different problem. From frissell at panix.com Wed Jul 18 11:48:05 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:48:05 -0400 Subject: The Downside of State Ownership Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010718144359.045e0c90@brillig.panix.com> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,29887,00.html 'Anarchy Express' to G8 Summit Canceled by French Railway Company Wednesday, July 18, 2001 by Helen Studd and Richard Owen GENOA, Italy A special train chartered by British anti-capitalist activists to transport them to the G8 summit of leading industrial nations in Italy has been cancelled, it emerged Tuesday night. The Globalize Resistance express, which was set to carry 450 protesters to the summit in Genoa, was cancelled by the French national railway, SNCF, protesters said. ****************** I guess they should have stuck with private transportation. DCF ---- Nuke 'em till they glow then shoot 'em in the dark. -- Courtesy of the National Commission for the Preservation of Ancient Right Wing Slogans. From balun_bong at free-tibet.net.cn Wed Jul 18 14:54:25 2001 From: balun_bong at free-tibet.net.cn (Mr. Falun Gong) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:54:25 -0700 Subject: thoughtcrime, doublestandards, mandatory youth education centers Message-ID: <3B560591.72845D1B@cnnic.cn> Murder Essay Homework Upsets Parent SPRINGFIELD, Pa. (AP) -- A high school student's father is calling for disciplinary action against a teacher who assigned his son's summer-school class to write a fictional first-person account of an armed robbery and murder. Students in the class were given two essay options, one of which was to write a 300-word essay on the following topic: ''We only meant to rob the store; we didn't want to kill him.'' ''I think the teacher should be suspended for three days and get some counseling,'' Tom Moore said. ''If they found that my son had written something like this on his own, that's what would happen to him.'' snip http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap554.htm From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Wed Jul 18 11:54:44 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: [isml] Facial-recognition tech has people pegged (fwd) Message-ID: There is a very interesting and pretty thorough article on iris recognition in the current (July-August) issue of "American Scientist". The site has an abstract of the article and some links: http://www.americanscientist.org/articles/01articles/Daugman.html Jim Windle -- On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:58:11 Eugene Leitl wrote: > >-- Eugen* Leitl leitl >______________________________________________________________ >ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 >57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:51:40 -0700 >From: DS2000 >To: isml >Subject: [isml] Facial-recognition tech has people pegged > >From CNN, >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/face.time.idg/index.html >- >Facial-recognition tech has people pegged > >July 17, 2001 Posted: 1:01 p.m. EDT (1701 GMT) > >By Emelie Rutherford > >(IDG) -- Forget ID badges, passwords and access cards. Pretty soon, to get >in and out of your office you might start using something you can't forget >or misplace: your face. > >Once the stuff of science fiction, facial recognition technology has started >to appear in real-life buildings and public places. Setups consist of >cameras that capture images of people who pose or simply walk by, and >software that matches those pictures with those stored in a database. > >Institutions of all kinds -- such as those that want to protect buildings or >internal networks and banks in need of greater security for ATMs -- have >recently begun to use facial recognition to verify users. Physical access >control will be the main source of revenue for biometrics companies over the >next five years, according to Marlene Bourne, a senior analyst for emerging >semiconductor applications at Scottsdale, Ariz.-based Cahners In-Stat Group. >Currently, though, it is being used most in casinos (more than 100 across >the country have facial recognition in operation) and neighborhoods (the >city of Tampa uses it in outdoor cameras to spot missing children and >lawbreakers). > >Facial recognition is a technology that has been around for a while. >University scientists have been working on facial recognition for over a >decade, with financial support from the U.S. Defense Department, in an >attempt to find a technology that can spot criminals at border crossings. >Companies began commercializing the technology in the mid 90s. It made >headlines last February, when word got out that authorities used it at Super >Bowl XXXV in Tampa to search for felons and terrorists among the crowd of >100,000 spectators. > >Facial recognition technology falls under the umbrella of biometrics, >technologies that identify people based on features such as faces, hands, >fingerprints and eyes. Electronic readers can be affixed to entryways, >keyboards, laptops and mobile phones. The biometrics market rose from $6.6 >million in 1990 to $63 million in 1999, according to the San Jose-based U.S. >National Biometrics Test Center. And pundits say it will continue to grow >substantially, fueled by companies in need of more advanced security >precautions. Cahners In-Stat Group predicts sales of biometrics will reach >$520 million by 2006. > >While other types of biometrics, such as iris scanning, are even more >accurate than facial recognition (which has a relatively low error rate; >just under 1 percent), facial recognition will probably be accepted more >widely because it is not intrusive. It does not require that the user push, >insert or click on anything. Companies often do not need to install anything >beyond the new software because most already have cameras in place and >pictures of employees on file -- making it cheaper than iris reading setups. > >"Unlike other biometrics, facial recognition provides for inherent human >backup because we naturally recognize one another," says Frances Zelazney, >the director of corporate communications at Visionics, a leading biometric >developer based in Jersey City. "If the system goes down, someone can pull >out an ID with a picture as backup, something you can't do with fingerprint >devices." > >How it works >Visionics' FaceIt software measures a face according to its peaks and >valleys -- such as the tip of the nose, the depth of the eye sockets --which >are known as nodal points. "While a human face has 80 nodal points," says >Zelazney, "we require only 14 to 22 to do the recognition. We concentrate on >the inner region of the face, which runs from temple to temple and just over >the lip, called the 'golden triangle.' This is the most stable because if >you grow beard, put on glasses, put on weight or age, that region tends no >to be affected, while places such as under chin would be." > >FaceIt plots the relative positions of these points and comes up with a long >string of numbers, called a faceprint. The software matches faceprints in >the existing file with those of the people passing in front of the cameras. >Faceprints can also be stored on a smart card that users swipe through a >door without looking into a camera. > >Visionics' main competitor, Littleton, Mass.-based Viisage Technology, has a >slightly different model. Its software compares faces to 128 archetypes it >has on record. Faces are then assigned numbers according to how they are >similar or different from these models. > >The use of facial recognition technology upsets some civil libertarians, who >call covertly scanning people's faces an invasion of privacy. Soon after >Tampa installed cameras in nightlife neighborhood Ybor City in June, House >Majority Leader Dick Armey issued a statement blasting the program's >Orwellian aspects. > >"The technology is blind as a bat if you're not in the database," counters >Zelazney. "It's not automatically adding people to the database. It's simply >matching faces in field-of-view against known criminals, or in the case of >access control, employees who have access. So no one's privacy is at stake, >except for the privacy of criminals and intruders." > >-- >Dan S > > >[ISML] Insane Science Mailing List > >- To subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/isml > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From newsletter at stocks.com Wed Jul 18 12:01:11 2001 From: newsletter at stocks.com (newsletter at stocks.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Special Alert from Stocks.com! Message-ID: <20010718190111.5FC1D2141FD@server1.rockriverstar.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From peopleperverts at ozemail.com.au Wed Jul 18 15:01:16 2001 From: peopleperverts at ozemail.com.au (peopleperverts at ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:01:16 Subject: SWEATY CUNTS Message-ID: <620.884663.813217@ozemail.com.au> FOR THE BEST ANAL FUCK SITE EVER TO BE RELEASED ON THE WEB!!! http://www.geocities.com/xxxanalrapexxx FUCK MY ASS UNTIL IT BLEEDS,PLEASE? THEN I'LL LICK THE SHIT OFF YOUR DICK. HOW I LOVE IT IN THE ASS, AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!!! COME AND ENJOY A FREE TOUR NOW!!!THIS IS HOT XXX RATED SHIT MY PERSONAL FAVOURITE!!!!!!! http://www.geocities.com/xxxanalrapexxx ------------------------------------------------------------------ IF YOU WANT THE YOUNGEST TEEN FUCK SITE ON THE NET!!!!! http://www.geocities.com/xxxxyoungpussyxxxx I AM A LOW SLUT, I WILL DO ANYTHING FOR CUM. ANYTHING!!!! 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TRUST ME I KNOW!!!!!!!!!! http://www.geocities.com/xxxcumswallowingsluts ****************************************************************** TO HAVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LISTS GO TO http://www.geocities.com/xxxxcancelxxxx From apowell at freedomforum.org Wed Jul 18 12:12:57 2001 From: apowell at freedomforum.org (Adam Powell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:12:57 -0400 Subject: Internet helps brutal governments retain control, paper says Message-ID: The subject line of this message is not supported by the paper. The full paper, posted at http://www.ceip.org/files/pdf/21KalathilBoas.pdf, says the Internet is not necessarily "an insurmountable threat to authoritarian rule." That is different from saying the Internet "helps brutal governments retain control." The paper begins by noting recent scholarship that has found a positive correlation between Net penetration and democratization -- and correctly noting that does not imply causality, any more than the crowing of a rooster causes the sun to rise. But by relying on official government data on computer *ownership* and on *registered* email accounts, the authors may have encountered a methodological problem that has skewed data for many countries around the world -- including the US. Throughout Asia and Africa and especially in China (I don't have first-hand knowledge of Cuba), relying on such data means you miss the vast majority of the online community that uses hotmail accounts, proxy servers and cybercafes or other non-owned machines for Net access. For every registered user we met in China, we met several who were not registered. So instead of the official Beijing number of 26.5 million people on line (that's the *official* number from China Internet Network Information Center reported today, up 56.8% from last year - details at http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14423) most experts we contacted said the ratio of unregistered to registered users is 4:1, yielding a total of well over 100 million. That's still a small percentage in a country of billions, but it is different from the paper's 17 million. Why lower than the official numbers? The citation in a footnote takes you to www.chinaoline.com, a Web site in Chicago. The page cited notes one "definition of Internet users rules out Web surfers in Internet cafis" - which would seem to be a problem in a country full of hotmail and yahoo email accounts. So instead they use another method to reach these new, lower numbers: they "conducted online and written surveys of each group to determine the proportion of Web users within each group. The total number of Chinese Internet users was then obtained by calculating the proportion of these groups in relation to the total Chinese population." These are people who go to great pains *not* to be counted or found by the government, but somehow they are expected to respond to an official survey. And if they do not complete the survey, these people do not exist. We also are receiving email from people in countries where, according to this paper, all such traffic is monitored and all users are registered. Not so. Students all seem to know how to use proxy servers and anonymizers and avoid official scrutiny -- and are not reported by those relying on official numbers. But more broadly, the problem is with the "one machine, one user" model of the Internet that most in North America and Europe assume is the standard worldwide. Not so: in Africa, Asia and South America, the standard is "one machine, many users." One example is at www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=11876 based on our first-hand observations and research on the ground, and there are many others on our site. This is not to say the Internet must inevitably topple undemocratic governments. That is the straw man addressed in this report's introduction. But this is to say that it is an important influence in totalitarian countries, enabling a still small but rapidly growing minority to access information directly from outside of their countries -- and to relay that information and their personal views via email to others. Otherwise, what are we to make of the reports by the BBC and the NY Times that China has been forced to change "official" versions of news stories because Chinese can send email to each other (and to those outside of China) with first-hand accounts of what actually happened? Cheers Adam ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From apowell at freedomforum.org Wed Jul 18 12:12:57 2001 From: apowell at freedomforum.org (Adam Powell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:12:57 -0400 Subject: Internet helps brutal governments retain control, paper says Message-ID: The subject line of this message is not supported by the paper. The full paper, posted at http://www.ceip.org/files/pdf/21KalathilBoas.pdf, says the Internet is not necessarily "an insurmountable threat to authoritarian rule." That is different from saying the Internet "helps brutal governments retain control." The paper begins by noting recent scholarship that has found a positive correlation between Net penetration and democratization -- and correctly noting that does not imply causality, any more than the crowing of a rooster causes the sun to rise. But by relying on official government data on computer *ownership* and on *registered* email accounts, the authors may have encountered a methodological problem that has skewed data for many countries around the world -- including the US. Throughout Asia and Africa and especially in China (I don't have first-hand knowledge of Cuba), relying on such data means you miss the vast majority of the online community that uses hotmail accounts, proxy servers and cybercafes or other non-owned machines for Net access. For every registered user we met in China, we met several who were not registered. So instead of the official Beijing number of 26.5 million people on line (that's the *official* number from China Internet Network Information Center reported today, up 56.8% from last year - details at http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14423) most experts we contacted said the ratio of unregistered to registered users is 4:1, yielding a total of well over 100 million. That's still a small percentage in a country of billions, but it is different from the paper's 17 million. Why lower than the official numbers? The citation in a footnote takes you to www.chinaoline.com, a Web site in Chicago. The page cited notes one "definition of Internet users rules out Web surfers in Internet caf嚙編" - which would seem to be a problem in a country full of hotmail and yahoo email accounts. So instead they use another method to reach these new, lower numbers: they "conducted online and written surveys of each group to determine the proportion of Web users within each group. The total number of Chinese Internet users was then obtained by calculating the proportion of these groups in relation to the total Chinese population." These are people who go to great pains *not* to be counted or found by the government, but somehow they are expected to respond to an official survey. And if they do not complete the survey, these people do not exist. We also are receiving email from people in countries where, according to this paper, all such traffic is monitored and all users are registered. Not so. Students all seem to know how to use proxy servers and anonymizers and avoid official scrutiny -- and are not reported by those relying on official numbers. But more broadly, the problem is with the "one machine, one user" model of the Internet that most in North America and Europe assume is the standard worldwide. Not so: in Africa, Asia and South America, the standard is "one machine, many users." One example is at www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=11876 based on our first-hand observations and research on the ground, and there are many others on our site. This is not to say the Internet must inevitably topple undemocratic governments. That is the straw man addressed in this report's introduction. But this is to say that it is an important influence in totalitarian countries, enabling a still small but rapidly growing minority to access information directly from outside of their countries -- and to relay that information and their personal views via email to others. Otherwise, what are we to make of the reports by the BBC and the NY Times that China has been forced to change "official" versions of news stories because Chinese can send email to each other (and to those outside of China) with first-hand accounts of what actually happened? Cheers Adam ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 18 16:10:39 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:10:39 -0700 Subject: Hey Kids: Revere Intellectual Property Rights In-Reply-To: <200107182035.QAA04622@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010718161039.0083e7c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:35 PM 7/18/01 -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: ># real to their 12- to 18-year-olds: "School children should ># recognize their own creativity by including the copyright symbol ># on their course work." Not necessary in the States, where Johnny's work is already copyrighted. Wearing a (c) on your person during the next Shoot Back event could just add to the fun. Bust your local 7-11 for copyright violation! If they make you take your mask off, bust them for DCMA-style circumvention! Wheee. ........ "If the law say that, the law is an ass." -- Charles Dickens From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 18 16:13:31 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:13:31 -0700 Subject: People's Republic of Scientology Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010718161331.008459a0@pop.sprynet.com> I bet sites in China would host some of them hassle-magnet Scientology docs... ......... The Falun Gong is not the only cult targeted by the exhibition. Other displays include the Japanese Aum Shinriyko, the Texas Branch Davidians, the Korean-based Reunification Church (the Moonies), the Church of Scientology and the Jehovah's Witnesses. http://www.smh.com.au/news/0107/19/world/world6.html From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Jul 18 16:15:16 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:15:16 -0700 Subject: TIME.com: Nation -- Supreme Court: Relax. The Heat is Off In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010718154937.02d96d90@idiom.com> At 05:02 PM 06/14/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, cubic-dog wrote [incorrectly--wcs] > > > This type of surveillence is allowed without warrent > > because it is non-invasive. > >How can any sort of search be 'non-invasive'? Looking in your car windows is non-invasive. Looking in your house windows with binoculars is non-invasive - you're shipping photons to the public outside world, and they're just picking them up the way they'd go through your garbage cans, which is also non-invasive. Shining bright spotlights in your windows at night to see through your curtains is probably invasive. Looking through your house walls with infrared goggles strikes me as really tacky but in some sense non-invasive. It's nice that the Supremes decided that seeing through walls without a warrant is not ok, because normal people can't see through walls, but it actually was a bit of a stretch. And technology has moved from night-vision goggles being used Russian military equipment at gun shows to $100 things you can buy at Fry's (which work outside but don't see through walls), but soon enough anybody will be able to see through walls if there's enough market. (Anybody can already do that just like police can now, but the hardware's expensive enough that most people don't bother. Steven Wright has a line about "I couldn't tell if they were cops or just people dressed up as cops, but that's really all that cops are anyway...") From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 18 13:35:18 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hey Kids: Revere Intellectual Property Rights Message-ID: <200107182035.QAA04622@www4.aa.psiweb.com> http://salon.com/tech/feature/2001/07/16/abc_ip/index.html # # Why can't Johnny respect copyrights? # # In Britain, elementary-school classrooms prepare to preach # reverence for intellectual property -- and to denounce the # evils of file-sharing. # # - - - - - - - - - - - - # # By Alan Docherty # # July 16, 2001 # # If members of the U.K.'s Creative Industries Task Force # [ http://www.culture.gov.uk/creative/creative_industries.html ] # have their way, British teenagers will soon be cramming # for tests on intellectual property law and the legal implications # of file-sharing. Schoolkids who download illicit MP3 files, cut # and paste newspaper articles or e-mail them, or exchange JPEG # files of Britney Spears will learn the error of their ways -- # at least according to the copyright officials. # # Classroom indoctrination is one way of targeting the Napster # demographic. But can it work? # # To get a glimpse of this possible future of British elementary # education, one must wade through a study produced by the task # force's Intellectual Property Group, which includes represent # atives from British broadcasting, the music industry, publishers # and others with an interest in protecting copyrighted material. # The Report of the Intellectual Property Group of the Creative # Industries Task Force # [ http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/notices/pdf/ipgroup.pdf ] # recommends, among other things, that copyright be brought into # the classroom -- not as a separate course, necessarily, but # integrated into the regular curriculum. # # "Copyright is relevant to music, art, information, technology, # and English; and patents and design rights are relevant to science # and design technology," reads the report. It goes on to recommend # specific ways teachers might make copyright issues a little more # real to their 12- to 18-year-olds: "School children should # recognize their own creativity by including the copyright symbol # on their course work." # # # Interest in bringing copyright into the classroom is growing # among government officials in Britain as well. Chris Smith, # secretary of state for culture, media and sport, recently said: # "Intellectual property rights are at the heart of the new # knowledge economy and are of vital importance to the creative # industries. Greater recognition by the public of the role and # importance of intellectual property rights must be encouraged." # # Intellectual property is already a part of the British school # system, but mostly in the higher grades. An "Intellectual Property # Pack Set," a CD-ROM designed to "Give Students Competitive Edge," # [ http://www.prowse.co.uk/O240500.html ] # is produced by the Patent Office in conjunction with Bournemouth # University and distributed to students across the country. # Meanwhile, officials at the Patent Office, which is responsible # for copyright, patents and trade marks in the U.K., are holding # regular meetings with officials at the Department for Education # and Skills to bring intellectual property issues into the # curriculum at an early age. # # So where does copyright fit in to the classroom fare of a British # 12-year-old? Teaching intellectual property is one of many # competing areas trying to be part of the "citizenship" subject, # which will become compulsory in U.K. secondary schools beginning # in September 2002. This new citizenship program aims to teach # pupils social and moral responsibility, political literacy, sex # education and the importance of marriage and family life. # # According to the Patent Office's director of copyright, Anthony # Murphy, a major proponent of the new program, understanding # intellectual property carries important social value: "By bringing # awareness of the importance of copyright into our schools, # tomorrow's consumers can take their place in a community which # understands, values and respects intellectual property." # # But even the program's proponents agree that teenagers may not # be receptive to a program that teaches them that trading MP3s # is morally wrong. Anthony Murphy acknowledges that: "The idea # that counterfeiting and piracy are victimless crimes is an all # too common perception." # # Jessica Litman, professor of law at Wayne State University and # author of "Digital Copyright," agrees. "Young people, and other # people, believe in a version of the copyright law that is # different from the one now on the books. Many of them believe, # for example, that if you buy a CD, you buy the right to share # it. " # # Some opponents also argue that it may be inappropriate to be # bringing intellectual property (I.P.) education into the classroom # when laws surrounding it are so hotly contested. Litman says # that educating children on the difference between "good" and # "bad" behavior is tough in a field that's in flux: "Any effort # to include I.P. in a moral education curriculum has to grapple # with the fact that the moral choices made in extant versions # of I.P. law are highly contested." # # Finally, if controversy over intellectual property can be managed # into a school curriculum, will students learn the lesson? As # with the American DARE program, will educators find that telling # students what decision to make might actually backfire? # [ http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/02/16/dare/print.html ] # # According to James Davison Hunter, professor of sociology and # religious studies at the University of Virginia and author of # "The Death of Character," "Moral education programs have little # or no positive effect upon moral behavior, achievement or anything # else." # # The desire to preach citizenship reflects a deep-rooted anxiety # about whether young people can grow into law-abiding citizens. # Copyright educators can only hope that students aren't immune # to their teachings. 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QUESTIONS: From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Wed Jul 18 14:19:04 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings In-Reply-To: <20010718182828.A8381@hyena.skygate.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Pete Chown wrote: > > to the Fast Software Encryption Workshop 2001? Springer-Verlag > > does not have it available for purchase yet. It also doesn't seem to be on Springer LINK yet. > It's annoying that crypto papers hardly ever seem to be made available > online. I wonder if there is any chance of crypto researchers joining > the scientific journal boycott... For what it's worth, this is not my experience. While not every paper is online, a large number of people make papers available from their web pages. Plus I'm very lucky in that my library subscribes to the online Springer LINK service. > Basically the researchers, who are currently mostly in the life > sciences, want papers published freely on the web after six months. It's been a while since looking at the Springer-Verlag copyright notice. I remember that it allows authors to publish papers on their web pages. Is this correct? What are the ACM and IEEE copyright terms like? Do they also allow publication on the web? Computer science might have it better than the life sciences in this regard. de facto if not de jure. -David From unsubs-2ndmember_emaila-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.xoom.com Wed Jul 18 10:44:15 2001 From: unsubs-2ndmember_emaila-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.xoom.com (NBCi) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:44:15 GMT Subject: Information for NBCi Members about www.nbci.com Message-ID: This is a second informational mailing regarding NBC Internet, Inc. You have received this e-mail because our records indicate that you are a registered user of www.nbci.com. NBCi is in the process of making certain changes to our portal offering that may affect the way you use the site. We are making these modifications in light of recent changes in the Internet advertising and financial markets. The following questions and answers will provide you with an update about upcoming changes. A. As mentioned in the previous e-mail, make sure you have a backup of all data stored on www.nbci.com (such as your web site, shared files, address books, and portfolio), as well as on Xoom.com and SNAP.com. Such a backup should be stored on your hard drive, on floppy disks or other web site hosting providers, but not on the NBCi site. Instructions for copying and printing the contents of your address book and portfolio are published at http://www.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,-5687,00.html. B. Uploads to member pages are no longer provided. Select an alternative web site hosting provider and ensure that your files are moved to the new provider before the end of the month. At the end of July, we anticipate that you will no longer be able to view member pages. NBCi has made arrangements with Homestead.com for web page hosting and XDrive.com for file storage to help make the transition a smooth one. -For more information about Homestead.com for your web page hosting needs, visit: http://homesteadannouncements.homestead.com/NBCI.html -For more information about Xdrive.com for your file storage needs, visit: http://plus.xdrive.com/target.html?path=signup.html,aff=nbci061301 C. Beginning July 18th, content currently supplied by some providers will be replaced with links that take you directly to the provider's web site and some content will be taken down. These changes affect several channels on the NBCi web site (e.g., Shopping, Travel, and Health). Please note, however, that the quality NBC content you expect, such as news from MSNBC as well as NBC TV highlights, will continue to be available at www.NBCi.com. And, as always, the www.nbc.com url takes you directly to programming information about the NBC Television Network. D. Effective July 26th, the following services will no longer be available: -Sharehouse -Clubs (with the exception of NBC TV clubs) -Calendar -Clipart -Sweepstakes How can you stay informed? -The contents of this e-mail as well as answers to frequently asked questions are located at: http://www.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,-5605,00.html -If you have specific questions about your e-mail account, contact mail.com (a separate company) directly using this form: http://www2.email.com/snap/supportform.jhtml. Note: If you use the NBCi site through one of our ISP distribution partners, such as PacBell, Verizon or Prodigy, please contact your ISP directly for additional information. General Disclaimer Please note that pursuant to our terms of service (which can be accessed from www.nbci.com), NBCi has the right to unilaterally stop all service and functionality to our web sites; however, we understand the importance of your information and desire to provide you with sufficient notice to allow you to act accordingly. Nothing contained in this mailing is intended to or shall supercede our terms of service. You can view our full terms of service if you have any questions at http://www.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,home-764,00.html?fd.ft.ts.h.s-764. For risks about NBCi's business, see its Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2000, as well as its other SEC filings. This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- From contactus at collectionsconsultant.com Wed Jul 18 18:03:20 2001 From: contactus at collectionsconsultant.com (AR Management Consultants) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:03:20 -0700 Subject: Collection Agencies and Collection Services: Gain National Exposure from a Global Network Message-ID: <200107190103.f6J138620132@ak47.algebra.com> Our Membership is Growing Rapidly and our Collection Agencies and Attorneys are Reaping the Benefits! * We have lowered our prices but this offer will not last!!! VISA / MC Now Accepted. Complete the On-line application at: http://www.collectionsconsultant.com/CollectionAgencyDirectory.htm Provide Payment Option and be sure to sign the Authorization. Fax application to (949) 360-9241 or call (949) 831-8755 for Phone orders. * Check out our site and give us your feedback. 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(Which states "A statement that further transmissions of unsolicited commercial electronic mail to the recipient by the person who initiates transmission of the message may be stopped at no cost to the recipient by sending a reply to the originating electronic mail address with the word 'remove' in the subject line.") From contactus at collectionsconsultant.com Wed Jul 18 18:03:26 2001 From: contactus at collectionsconsultant.com (AR Management Consultants) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:03:26 -0700 Subject: Collection Agencies and Collection Services: Gain National Exposure from a Global Network Message-ID: <200107190355.f6J3tm107154@rigel.cyberpass.net> Our Membership is Growing Rapidly and our Collection Agencies and Attorneys are Reaping the Benefits! * We have lowered our prices but this offer will not last!!! VISA / MC Now Accepted. Complete the On-line application at: http://www.collectionsconsultant.com/CollectionAgencyDirectory.htm Provide Payment Option and be sure to sign the Authorization. Fax application to (949) 360-9241 or call (949) 831-8755 for Phone orders. * Check out our site and give us your feedback. We would love to hear from you! http://www.collectionsconsultant.com/CollectionAgencyDirectory.htm * Directory Cost: Just $100.00 for the first Area Listing, $50.00 for each Additional Listing (For One Year's Service). Renewal for the following year at the same rate. * This Offer will not last! (Regular Price: $499.00 for first Listing, $199.99 for each additional listing) * Listing in our directory is fast, easy and hassle free. Just fill out the online application and fax to 949 360 9241 including your payment option. * Over 1,000 visitors to our site each month and growing!!! * We will list your company within 24 hours of receipt of payment. * Due to our expanded search engine status, we are now reaching a Global Network of Businesses. * Link to your Website or let us create a web page for you! (No extra charge for link to existing website. Creating a web page, reasonably priced) * Membership is free upon the purchase of first Listing. * Referrals are 100% Free * Project Consultant Engagements are Fee based and charged to the Client not the Agency. * Listings are by State, then City. Cost is Per Listing. You can be listed in one area or in every state, any combination. * Banner Advertising: Advertising your Business on our Site- now available at reasonable prices, call for details. * List Today and Start Tracking the Prospects! Call AR Management Consultants today (949) 831- 8755 http://www.collectionsconsultant.com/CollectionAgencyDirectory.htm "This email ad is being sent in full compliance with U.S. Senate Bill 1618, Title #3, Section 301." (Which states "A statement that further transmissions of unsolicited commercial electronic mail to the recipient by the person who initiates transmission of the message may be stopped at no cost to the recipient by sending a reply to the originating electronic mail address with the word 'remove' in the subject line.") From Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk Wed Jul 18 10:28:28 2001 From: Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk (Pete Chown) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:28:28 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010718023100.012fcfc8@mail>; from Alten@home.com on Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 02:31:00AM -0700 References: <3.0.3.32.20010718023100.012fcfc8@mail> Message-ID: <20010718182828.A8381@hyena.skygate.co.uk> Alex Alten wrote: > Does anyone know where I could purchase or get the papers submitted > to the Fast Software Encryption Workshop 2001? Springer-Verlag > does not have it available for purchase yet. It's annoying that crypto papers hardly ever seem to be made available online. I wonder if there is any chance of crypto researchers joining the scientific journal boycott... The boycott is described here among other places: http://www.scientificamerican.com/explorations/2001/042301publish/ http://slashdot.org/science/01/04/24/149257_F.shtml Basically the researchers, who are currently mostly in the life sciences, want papers published freely on the web after six months. So if you need completely up to date information, you buy the journal. If you aren't bothered you can look on the web. According to the Scientific American article they have 15,000 researchers including several Nobel prize winners. This wouldn't help Alex, though... :-( -- Pete From ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com Wed Jul 18 14:36:12 2001 From: ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com (ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:36:12 -0300 (ADT) Subject: Pantellic acquires PhotoPoint.com Message-ID: <200107182136.f6ILaCX04966@sdev10.photopoint.com> Please note, this email is being sent to inform you about important news at PhotoPoint.com. Even if you have opted out of promotional messages, we are required to contact you regarding this important change. Pantellic Acquires PhotoPoint.com *********************************************************** PHOTOPOINT.COM ACQUIRED BY ITS ORIGINAL CREATORS Dear Members, I am very pleased to announce some exciting changes at PhotoPoint.com. Many people have expressed fears about the future of PhotoPoint.com in light of the many closures, layoffs, and changes that are occurring at other photo sites. The recent changes at PhotoPoint.com ensure a long and stable future for the site and your photos. Until now, PhotoPoint.com has been owned and managed by PhotoPoint Corp (USA), but developed and maintained by Pantellic Software Inc. Pantellic was the original creator of the site, and back in 1999, sold the intellectual property of the site to PhotoPoint Corp. Pantellic Software is proud to announce that on July 17th, we re-acquired the rights to the site, allowing us to continue to develop and maintain the site as we have been, but also letting us set the future direction, based upon our daily contact with the membership. You can view our press release at: http://ads.photopoint.com/j/Gateway?source=mo20010718&uid=141965&id=bignews&redir=bignews I would like to apologize for any uncertainty that our members may have experienced during the transition of ownership. Your photos, albums, and memberships were never at any risk of loss. The safety and integrity of our members' photos has always been, and will continue to be, our number one priority. We understand how important your photos are to you. We want to assure our members that we will honour all existing paid memberships and trial accounts. In addition, in appreciation of your patience and loyalty during this period of uncertainty, we will be extending the term of existing paid memberships by two months. In the future, we plan to make the site even better. We know the success of the site hinges on the satisfaction of you, the members of PhotoPoint. We will be counting on your comments and suggestions about our features and services to help us make the right changes and enhancements to the site. We would encourage members to send any constructive feedback or suggestions to suggestions at photopoint.com. I apologize for our delays in communicating these events of the past week to you. As you can appreciate, the transition of ownership has been very hectic for us, and during private negotiations, one's ability to make public statements can be limited. I want to personally thank you for your loyalty. All of us in the Pantellic Family look forward to continuing to make PhotoPoint.com the greatest and safest place in the world to store and share your photos. Sincerely, Dale Gass CEO, Pantellic Software, Inc. *********************************************************** PHOTOPOINT HOME Share and store your photos in secure online albums. http://ads.photopoint.com/j/Gateway?source=mo20010718&uid=141965&id=mainpage&redir=mainpage VISIT MY ALBUMS View and share the photos in your albums today. http://ads.photopoint.com/j/Gateway?source=mo20010718&uid=141965&id=login&redir=login GALLERY Check out photos from PhotoPoint members around the world. http://ads.photopoint.com/j/Gateway?source=mo20010718&uid=141965&id=gallery&redir=gallery PHOTOTALK Learn about digital photography, get photo tips and tricks and more. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Gateway?source=mo20010718&uid=141965&id=phototalk&redir=phototalk ******************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14090 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 09:56:38 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:56:38 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > 1. encrypted data is indisttinguishable from uniformly distributed noise Yes, but which natural data sources have that signature? > 2. LSBs in digitizations of analog signals are noise Not uniformly distributed noise, unfortunately. Perhaps somebody should put hardware entropy generators mixing white noise into multimedia steam LSBs. People should definitely package stegano decoys into Open Source streaming multimedia warez. > 3. ignoring the nuance of different LSB distributions, how can you > distinguish a stego'd from unaltered file? By running a simple statistical test (most packages don't even pad, so you can vgrep for it). There is some pretty bulletproof stego out there, but 90% of it wouldn't stand a trace of scrutiny. Of course it limits the processivity of the screening. > Stego by itself is much less interesting than stego'd encrypted data > (with idenntifying headers stripped of course) The point of stego is not leaking the information that you're sending other information. > That spam, mp3, or image could be merely a transport for more privledged > info. Posting /reading to a public newsgroup solves traffic-analysis > issues too. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 09:58:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:58:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [isml] Facial-recognition tech has people pegged (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:51:40 -0700 From: DS2000 To: isml Subject: [isml] Facial-recognition tech has people pegged >From CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/face.time.idg/index.html - Facial-recognition tech has people pegged July 17, 2001 Posted: 1:01 p.m. EDT (1701 GMT) By Emelie Rutherford (IDG) -- Forget ID badges, passwords and access cards. Pretty soon, to get in and out of your office you might start using something you can't forget or misplace: your face. Once the stuff of science fiction, facial recognition technology has started to appear in real-life buildings and public places. Setups consist of cameras that capture images of people who pose or simply walk by, and software that matches those pictures with those stored in a database. Institutions of all kinds -- such as those that want to protect buildings or internal networks and banks in need of greater security for ATMs -- have recently begun to use facial recognition to verify users. Physical access control will be the main source of revenue for biometrics companies over the next five years, according to Marlene Bourne, a senior analyst for emerging semiconductor applications at Scottsdale, Ariz.-based Cahners In-Stat Group. Currently, though, it is being used most in casinos (more than 100 across the country have facial recognition in operation) and neighborhoods (the city of Tampa uses it in outdoor cameras to spot missing children and lawbreakers). Facial recognition is a technology that has been around for a while. University scientists have been working on facial recognition for over a decade, with financial support from the U.S. Defense Department, in an attempt to find a technology that can spot criminals at border crossings. Companies began commercializing the technology in the mid 90s. It made headlines last February, when word got out that authorities used it at Super Bowl XXXV in Tampa to search for felons and terrorists among the crowd of 100,000 spectators. Facial recognition technology falls under the umbrella of biometrics, technologies that identify people based on features such as faces, hands, fingerprints and eyes. Electronic readers can be affixed to entryways, keyboards, laptops and mobile phones. The biometrics market rose from $6.6 million in 1990 to $63 million in 1999, according to the San Jose-based U.S. National Biometrics Test Center. And pundits say it will continue to grow substantially, fueled by companies in need of more advanced security precautions. Cahners In-Stat Group predicts sales of biometrics will reach $520 million by 2006. While other types of biometrics, such as iris scanning, are even more accurate than facial recognition (which has a relatively low error rate; just under 1 percent), facial recognition will probably be accepted more widely because it is not intrusive. It does not require that the user push, insert or click on anything. Companies often do not need to install anything beyond the new software because most already have cameras in place and pictures of employees on file -- making it cheaper than iris reading setups. "Unlike other biometrics, facial recognition provides for inherent human backup because we naturally recognize one another," says Frances Zelazney, the director of corporate communications at Visionics, a leading biometric developer based in Jersey City. "If the system goes down, someone can pull out an ID with a picture as backup, something you can't do with fingerprint devices." How it works Visionics' FaceIt software measures a face according to its peaks and valleys -- such as the tip of the nose, the depth of the eye sockets --which are known as nodal points. "While a human face has 80 nodal points," says Zelazney, "we require only 14 to 22 to do the recognition. We concentrate on the inner region of the face, which runs from temple to temple and just over the lip, called the 'golden triangle.' This is the most stable because if you grow beard, put on glasses, put on weight or age, that region tends no to be affected, while places such as under chin would be." FaceIt plots the relative positions of these points and comes up with a long string of numbers, called a faceprint. The software matches faceprints in the existing file with those of the people passing in front of the cameras. Faceprints can also be stored on a smart card that users swipe through a door without looking into a camera. Visionics' main competitor, Littleton, Mass.-based Viisage Technology, has a slightly different model. Its software compares faces to 128 archetypes it has on record. Faces are then assigned numbers according to how they are similar or different from these models. The use of facial recognition technology upsets some civil libertarians, who call covertly scanning people's faces an invasion of privacy. Soon after Tampa installed cameras in nightlife neighborhood Ybor City in June, House Majority Leader Dick Armey issued a statement blasting the program's Orwellian aspects. "The technology is blind as a bat if you're not in the database," counters Zelazney. "It's not automatically adding people to the database. It's simply matching faces in field-of-view against known criminals, or in the case of access control, employees who have access. So no one's privacy is at stake, except for the privacy of criminals and intruders." -- Dan S [ISML] Insane Science Mailing List - To subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/isml Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 09:58:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:58:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [isml] Facial-recognition tech has people pegged (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:51:40 -0700 From: DS2000 Reply-To: isml at yahoogroups.com To: isml Subject: [isml] Facial-recognition tech has people pegged >From CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/07/17/face.time.idg/index.html - Facial-recognition tech has people pegged July 17, 2001 Posted: 1:01 p.m. EDT (1701 GMT) By Emelie Rutherford (IDG) -- Forget ID badges, passwords and access cards. Pretty soon, to get in and out of your office you might start using something you can't forget or misplace: your face. Once the stuff of science fiction, facial recognition technology has started to appear in real-life buildings and public places. Setups consist of cameras that capture images of people who pose or simply walk by, and software that matches those pictures with those stored in a database. Institutions of all kinds -- such as those that want to protect buildings or internal networks and banks in need of greater security for ATMs -- have recently begun to use facial recognition to verify users. Physical access control will be the main source of revenue for biometrics companies over the next five years, according to Marlene Bourne, a senior analyst for emerging semiconductor applications at Scottsdale, Ariz.-based Cahners In-Stat Group. Currently, though, it is being used most in casinos (more than 100 across the country have facial recognition in operation) and neighborhoods (the city of Tampa uses it in outdoor cameras to spot missing children and lawbreakers). Facial recognition is a technology that has been around for a while. University scientists have been working on facial recognition for over a decade, with financial support from the U.S. Defense Department, in an attempt to find a technology that can spot criminals at border crossings. Companies began commercializing the technology in the mid 90s. It made headlines last February, when word got out that authorities used it at Super Bowl XXXV in Tampa to search for felons and terrorists among the crowd of 100,000 spectators. Facial recognition technology falls under the umbrella of biometrics, technologies that identify people based on features such as faces, hands, fingerprints and eyes. Electronic readers can be affixed to entryways, keyboards, laptops and mobile phones. The biometrics market rose from $6.6 million in 1990 to $63 million in 1999, according to the San Jose-based U.S. National Biometrics Test Center. And pundits say it will continue to grow substantially, fueled by companies in need of more advanced security precautions. Cahners In-Stat Group predicts sales of biometrics will reach $520 million by 2006. While other types of biometrics, such as iris scanning, are even more accurate than facial recognition (which has a relatively low error rate; just under 1 percent), facial recognition will probably be accepted more widely because it is not intrusive. It does not require that the user push, insert or click on anything. Companies often do not need to install anything beyond the new software because most already have cameras in place and pictures of employees on file -- making it cheaper than iris reading setups. "Unlike other biometrics, facial recognition provides for inherent human backup because we naturally recognize one another," says Frances Zelazney, the director of corporate communications at Visionics, a leading biometric developer based in Jersey City. "If the system goes down, someone can pull out an ID with a picture as backup, something you can't do with fingerprint devices." How it works Visionics' FaceIt software measures a face according to its peaks and valleys -- such as the tip of the nose, the depth of the eye sockets --which are known as nodal points. "While a human face has 80 nodal points," says Zelazney, "we require only 14 to 22 to do the recognition. We concentrate on the inner region of the face, which runs from temple to temple and just over the lip, called the 'golden triangle.' This is the most stable because if you grow beard, put on glasses, put on weight or age, that region tends no to be affected, while places such as under chin would be." FaceIt plots the relative positions of these points and comes up with a long string of numbers, called a faceprint. The software matches faceprints in the existing file with those of the people passing in front of the cameras. Faceprints can also be stored on a smart card that users swipe through a door without looking into a camera. Visionics' main competitor, Littleton, Mass.-based Viisage Technology, has a slightly different model. Its software compares faces to 128 archetypes it has on record. Faces are then assigned numbers according to how they are similar or different from these models. The use of facial recognition technology upsets some civil libertarians, who call covertly scanning people's faces an invasion of privacy. Soon after Tampa installed cameras in nightlife neighborhood Ybor City in June, House Majority Leader Dick Armey issued a statement blasting the program's Orwellian aspects. "The technology is blind as a bat if you're not in the database," counters Zelazney. "It's not automatically adding people to the database. It's simply matching faces in field-of-view against known criminals, or in the case of access control, employees who have access. So no one's privacy is at stake, except for the privacy of criminals and intruders." -- Dan S [ISML] Insane Science Mailing List - To subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/isml Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Jul 18 17:13:57 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:13:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: TIME.com: Nation -- Supreme Court: Relax. The Heat is Off In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010718154937.02d96d90@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 05:02 PM 06/14/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > >On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, cubic-dog wrote [incorrectly--wcs] > > > > > This type of surveillence is allowed without warrent > > > because it is non-invasive. > > > >How can any sort of search be 'non-invasive'? > > Looking in your car windows is non-invasive. ^^ ^^^^^^^^ Then why do you use the word 'in'... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 18 10:23:58 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:23:58 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: burning down the house (russian adobe rev-eng jailed) In-Reply-To: <3B548684.FF6F4862@black.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > Anonymously coded Adobe e-book browser plug-in, anyone? Coders on cypherpunks@? How unusual. > How do you picket a virtual store? DoS? Oh, I forgot, it's a "crime". -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From webmaster at answerchase.com Wed Jul 18 17:24:05 2001 From: webmaster at answerchase.com (Announcement) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:24:05 -0500 Subject: Intelligence Monitoring Course from AnswerChase, Inc. Message-ID: <200107182321.XAA45320037@smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net> Intelligence Monitoring Training Course August 17, 2001, Open (limited seats) September 21, 2001, Open October 19, 2001, TBA This course will assist you to plan and implement Intelligence Monitoring (IM) technology in your organization. IM technology harvests Web content to help you discover hidden knowledge about your enemies, competitors, suppliers, creditors, investors, market trends, customers, clients, personnel, corporate visibility, and even about your own reputation. A new breed of IM software based on advanced language processing technology is now changing the IM landscape from "monitoring news clips by keywords" to "detecting intelligence by questions", a step closer to how IM professionals do the job themselves. Register now to reserve a seat. More information: http://www.answerchase.com/ytr1.html From webmaster at answerchase.com Wed Jul 18 17:24:05 2001 From: webmaster at answerchase.com (Announcement) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:24:05 -0500 Subject: Intelligence Monitoring Course from AnswerChase, Inc. Message-ID: <200107182321.XAA43934434@smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net> Intelligence Monitoring Training Course August 17, 2001, Open (limited seats) September 21, 2001, Open October 19, 2001, TBA This course will assist you to plan and implement Intelligence Monitoring (IM) technology in your organization. IM technology harvests Web content to help you discover hidden knowledge about your enemies, competitors, suppliers, creditors, investors, market trends, customers, clients, personnel, corporate visibility, and even about your own reputation. A new breed of IM software based on advanced language processing technology is now changing the IM landscape from "monitoring news clips by keywords" to "detecting intelligence by questions", a step closer to how IM professionals do the job themselves. Register now to reserve a seat. More information: http://www.answerchase.com/ytr1.html From webmaster at answerchase.com Wed Jul 18 17:24:05 2001 From: webmaster at answerchase.com (Announcement) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:24:05 -0500 Subject: Intelligence Monitoring Course from AnswerChase, Inc. Message-ID: <200107182321.XAA54682268@smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net> Intelligence Monitoring Training Course August 17, 2001, Open (limited seats) September 21, 2001, Open October 19, 2001, TBA This course will assist you to plan and implement Intelligence Monitoring (IM) technology in your organization. IM technology harvests Web content to help you discover hidden knowledge about your enemies, competitors, suppliers, creditors, investors, market trends, customers, clients, personnel, corporate visibility, and even about your own reputation. A new breed of IM software based on advanced language processing technology is now changing the IM landscape from "monitoring news clips by keywords" to "detecting intelligence by questions", a step closer to how IM professionals do the job themselves. Register now to reserve a seat. More information: http://www.answerchase.com/ytr1.html From free100 at ausi.com Wed Jul 18 20:12:11 2001 From: free100 at ausi.com (FREE ALL) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:12:11 -0700 Subject: 100% Free Message-ID: <200107190312.UAA11426@mail16.bigmailbox.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From free100 at ausi.com Wed Jul 18 20:13:25 2001 From: free100 at ausi.com (FREE ALL) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:13:25 -0700 Subject: 100% Free Message-ID: <200107190313.UAA11602@mail16.bigmailbox.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Wed Jul 18 18:23:29 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:23:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: George W. Bush on biochemwomdterror In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010718080439.0214cb80@mail.well.com> Message-ID: > ... missiles in the hands of those for whom terror and blackmail > >are a very way of life." Oh, you mean the United States. Yeah. I agree fully. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jei at cc.hut.fi Wed Jul 18 10:38:39 2001 From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:38:39 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: FC: FBI arrests Russian hacker visiting U.S. for alleged DMCA breach (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:57:48 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech at politechbot.com Subject: FC: FBI arrests Russian hacker visiting U.S. for alleged DMCA breach http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45298,00.html Russian Adobe Hacker Busted By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 7:04 a.m. July 17, 2001 PDT LAS VEGAS -- FBI agents have arrested a Russian programmer for giving away software that removes the restrictions on encrypted Adobe Acrobat files. Dmitry Sklyarov, a lead programmer for Russian software company ElcomSoft, was visiting the United States for the annual Defcon hacker convention, where he gave a talk on the often-flawed security of e-books. This would be the second known prosecution under the criminal sections of the controversial Digital Millennium Copyright Act, (DMCA) which took effect last year and makes it a crime to "manufacture" products that circumvent copy protection safeguards. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 18 18:05:07 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TIME.com: Nation -- Supreme Court: Relax. The Heat is Off Message-ID: <200107190105.VAA12041@www9.aa.psiweb.com> KAOS wrote: # On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Bill Stewart wrote: # > # > Looking in your car windows is non-invasive. # # ^^ ^^^^^^^^ # Then why do you use the word 'in'... "NumbNuts!" From cofor_d at wanadoo.es Wed Jul 18 12:52:44 2001 From: cofor_d at wanadoo.es (COFOR) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:52:44 +0200 Subject: Le interesara Message-ID: <200107210840.DAA14098@einstein.ssz.com> Jacarilla 20.7.2001.Publicidad/Ense簽anza a Distancia Hola que tal: El motivo de la presente carta es informarte de la posibilidad de poder realizar alg繳n curso a distancia de tu inter矇s, cursos relacionados con tu trabajo inquietudes y ocio.ect.El conocimiento es el mayor patrimonio de que podemos disponer. Nos dedicamos desde 1996.a impartir cursos a distancia disponemos de una amplia variedad de cursos sencillos para poder seguirlos comodamente desde cualquier parte del mundo y a unos precios muy competitivos. 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Si desean que les ampliemos informaci籀n pueden enviar un e-mail les contestaremos con la mayor brevedad y les indicaremos nuestro espacio web que se encuentra en reformas. Envie e-mail: COFTOR at terra.es distancia.20 at wanadoo.es cofor_b at wanadoo.es Sin otra que rogarte me envies un e-mail si estas interesado/a Te enviamos un saludo. Merce Sanchez Gesti籀n Integral 1.S.L C/ Virgen de Bel矇n, 30 03310 Jacarilla (Alicante)ESPAA Si desea no recibir mas e-mail. remove/mail animanatu at terra.es From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Jul 18 22:04:09 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:04:09 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: References: <3B53FCE0.9827.6711B6@localhost> Message-ID: <3B5607D9.6135.529F09@localhost> -- > > I find it much more plausible that commies did bad things, things > > characteristic of commies, because they were bad people. Faustine > True: but then there's always the gray area of exactly what's done in the > name of "what bad people deserve" that keeps me uneasy about the whole > thing. Have you read Gordon Thomas' book about the Mossad, "Gideon's > Spies"? He was allowed to interview all the top agency people, so you can > be sure nothing got out the agency didn't want out. Even still, it's a > fascinating, hard-hitting look at what happens when an organization of > brilliant, ruthless people come to exist in a system with limited > accountability: hardcore realpolitik at its most elemental. We know the spooks do bad things. They have done bad things to people who post on this list. We also know commies do bad things. The argument I object to is that all the bad behavior, the authoritarianism, the crimes, the repression, that we saw from the new left during the seventies is somehow the fault of the spooks, and somehow not the fault of the people who were doing it. --digsig James A. 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ALL TRADEMARKS AND BRAND NAMES LISTED ABOVE ARE PROPERTY OF THE RESPECTIVE HOLDERS AND USED FOR DESCRIPTIVE PURPOSES ONLY. From helger at tml.hut.fi Wed Jul 18 14:33:31 2001 From: helger at tml.hut.fi (Helger Lipmaa) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:33:31 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010718023100.012fcfc8@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Alex Alten wrote: > Does anyone know where I could purchase or get the papers submitted > to the Fast Software Encryption Workshop 2001? Springer-Verlag > does not have it available for purchase yet. I looked at the Web > site (url below) and emailed the 2 Japanese fellows apparently > running it but they have yet to respond. Any pointers or help > would be most appreciated. I'm cc'ing cyperpunks and cryptography > mailing lists as well. > > http://www.venus.dti.ne.jp/~matsui/FSE2001/ I am one of the authors of one of the papers there. As far as I know, only preproceedings are available until now - the deadline to send the final version to Matsui was at the end of May. It is no wonder it takes time to publish the final proceedings. On the other hand, preproceedings were (I think) printed in a small quantity and mostly for the conference participants. You may still inquery Matsumoto Matsui about their availability, but doubt in it. Moreover, preproceedings *really* contained *prefinal* versions of the papers. If you want to get final versions, contact the authors. It is also mostly up to them to put their papers on their homepages - some authors do, some don't: mind that not all of them have time or possibilities to maintain a homepage. Helger http://www.tcs.hut.fi/~helger From helger at tml.hut.fi Wed Jul 18 14:33:31 2001 From: helger at tml.hut.fi (Helger Lipmaa) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:33:31 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010718023100.012fcfc8@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Alex Alten wrote: > Does anyone know where I could purchase or get the papers submitted > to the Fast Software Encryption Workshop 2001? Springer-Verlag > does not have it available for purchase yet. I looked at the Web > site (url below) and emailed the 2 Japanese fellows apparently > running it but they have yet to respond. Any pointers or help > would be most appreciated. I'm cc'ing cyperpunks and cryptography > mailing lists as well. > > http://www.venus.dti.ne.jp/~matsui/FSE2001/ I am one of the authors of one of the papers there. As far as I know, only preproceedings are available until now - the deadline to send the final version to Matsui was at the end of May. It is no wonder it takes time to publish the final proceedings. On the other hand, preproceedings were (I think) printed in a small quantity and mostly for the conference participants. You may still inquery Matsumoto Matsui about their availability, but doubt in it. Moreover, preproceedings *really* contained *prefinal* versions of the papers. If you want to get final versions, contact the authors. It is also mostly up to them to put their papers on their homepages - some authors do, some don't: mind that not all of them have time or possibilities to maintain a homepage. 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For an information Pack Please send an email to... mediamakers2001us at yahoo.com Subject: "Request Media Information Pack" P.S. Could this be you in one year? Quote "This month, I will be making over $200,000, and it's been like that for over a year now. I finally can dabble in the things I like" David L.. New Zealand Thank You for taking the time to read this message. Please Note: UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGE This message is sent in compliance with all known local and International laws and it complies with the proposed United States Federal Requirements for commercial email. SENDER Mediamakers Mediamakers.com honors all REMOVE REQUESTS. If you wish to be permanently removed from any future mailings, simply reply at the link below and we assure you that you will not receive any further mailings mediamakers2001us at yahoo.com Subject REMOVE From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 19 05:10:15 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Plan Columbia Broadens (Plan Andean)... (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:51:25 -0400 Subject: Inferno: Plan Columbia Broadens (Plan Andean)... res ipsa loquitor... << But what did come as a shock was the discovery of language in the bill (apparently inserted late in the game by Foreign Operations subcommittee chairman Jim Kolbe) that not only gives the Bush Administration authority to send as many private military specialists as it wants to Colombia, but to send them in as heavily armed as they want--and with broad rules of engagement...>> << Entitled "Colombian Labryinth," the RAND report asserts that "drugs and insurgency are intertwined in complicated and changing ways but the former cannot be addressed without the latter," and concludes US-backed efforts to reduce the drug supply in Colombia have been ineffective, The reason, RAND says, is because the US has focused more on "counternarcotics" assistance (aid to anti-drug police and special military anti-drug units) rather than "counterinsurgency" (aid to Colombian military in its war with the left-wing FARC and ELN). While a number of investigative journalists and watchdog groups have demonstrated US aid and assistance has already crossed the line from counternarcotics to counterinsurgency, RAND recommends that the US once and for all dispense with the dubious notion that there's any difference between the two, and lays out an expansive proposal for increasing US military aid and assistance to Colombian government in its fight against leftist rebels. But use of US troops is something even the Bush Administration is leery of: at his confirmation hearing earlier this year, Peter Rodman, Bush's nominee to be Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs, told senators that " None of us wants to get into a war. The word 'counterinsurgency' scares the hell out of everybody." >> http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=special&s=vest20010717 -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 19 05:16:31 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:16:31 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Restricted CDs Quietly Distributed Message-ID: <3B56CF9F.C0FDBB35@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/19/007240.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sarengupta at yahoo.com Thu Jul 19 07:48:45 2001 From: sarengupta at yahoo.com (Ajay Gupta) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cryptography analysis Message-ID: <20010719144845.71768.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I am looking for someone to analyze a symmetric key encryption algorithm. Time frame for the analysis is 2-3 weeks. No report writing is necessary. Just analysis. If interested please reply to this message. Thank you, - Ajay Gupta --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Jul 19 05:32:13 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:32:13 -0400 Subject: HushMail 2.0 released, supports OpenPGP standard Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010719083206.00aafdc0@mail.well.com> From 100free at cgispy.com Thu Jul 19 01:54:43 2001 From: 100free at cgispy.com (100free at cgispy.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:54:43 GMT Subject: Subscription To List Message-ID: <200107190854.f6J8shY76543@dw2.danworld.net> You have been added to the mailing list. 100% Free at http://100free.coolfreehost.com 100% Free Membership ---Top site, Limited Time for Free. 100% Free Email Subscribe --- Delivered Daily, Direct to Your Email Box. 100% Free Pics ---- 40 Categories, Up to 4000+ Pics, All in One Site. 100% Free Fresh Daily Pics --- Update Every 24 Hours, Guarantee ! 100% Free personal profile --- Get Your Match. 100% Free Online Lesson --- How to Get a Top Pay site For Free. 100% Not Free --- Spend Your Money For ... ... Provided by CGISpy.com Free CGI Hosting From declan at well.com Thu Jul 19 06:07:46 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:07:46 -0400 Subject: Cloning and body armor Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010719090737.026fcb10@mail.well.com> today... HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE Cloning/Body Armor Crime Subcommittee markup immediately following Full committee on H.R.2505, the "Human Cloning Prohibition Act of 2001," and H.R.1007, the "James Guelff Body Armor Act of 2001." Location: 2141 Rayburn House Office Building. 10 a.m. Contact: 202-225-3951 http://www.house.gov/judiciary From ciara.hudson at hush.com Thu Jul 19 01:11:12 2001 From: ciara.hudson at hush.com (Ciara Hudson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:11:12 +0100 Subject: Major Breakthrough Successfully Completed by Hush Communications Message-ID: for Secure Technologies Good Morning, Please find the latest announcement from Hush Communications below. We are delighted to introduce HushMail Version 2.0 to our peers and other secure technology professionals. This marks major breakthrough with advancing ease of use and overcoming interoperability problems previously associated with PKI technologies. Please take the time to read through the advances and changes made to HushMail.com and contact press at hushmail.com if there are any comments or queries. We will be following up this announcement with a review program and welcome your involvement. Thanks for your continued interest in Hush services and we look forward to hearing from you soon. Regards, Ciara Hudson, Public Relations Hush Communications Dublin, Ireland Hush Communications Launch HushMail Version 2.0 Next generation of industry leading solutions now supports OpenPGP compliance Dublin Ireland - 20 July , 2000 - Hush Communications (www.hush.com), a leading global provider of managed security solutions and encryption key-serving technology, has launched HushMail Version 2.0, the latest version of its world premier secure Web-based email service. The upgrade now supports the OpenPGP standard, offers improved functionality, and exciting new features. Version 2's support for OpenPGP marks a major breakthrough in widening the appeal and usability of HushMail, as Version 2.0 is a major move toward achieving interoperability with the other member companies. Very soon Hush users will be able to communicate securely with PGP and other member company applications, creating a universal interoperable platform for secure digital technologies. PGP is the most widely used email security protocol and this new version opens up HushMail users to an estimated 8 million PGP users worldwide. Phil Zimmermann, Managing Director of the OpenPGP Alliance (www.openpgp.org) said, "I am very encouraged by the support given to the OpenPGP Alliance by founding members such as Hush Communications. As an early adopter of the OpenPGP standard, Hush is encouraging the widespread adoption of secure platforms and improvements with technical interoperability. I am confident that more users will quickly come to recognize and appreciate the added security benefits and ease of use that HushMail Version 2.0 offers." The OpenPGP standard has provided a welcome alternative to security infrastructure standards. Compared to existing standards, it has been rigorously tested, provides a more flexible trust model, has a larger user community, is cheaper to implement and more user friendly for its adopters. "Today's launch of HushMail Version 2.0 signifies a close co-operation between Hush Communications and the OpenPGP Alliance to build a reliable, easy to use, personal messaging solution for secure data exchange over the Internet," said Jon Matonis, President and CEO of Hush Communications. "Hush has a vision to advance secure communications worldwide. It is committed to developing and providing PKI-enabled complete solutions and services for both personal and business sectors without sacrificing ease of use." Existing Hush customers that will immediately migrate to the new platform include; Daytraders, iEnhance, Therapy Online, Security.nl and Napo.org. HushMail Version 2.0 provides a transparently managed PKI system that encrypts, decrypts, signs and verifies incoming and outgoing mails using keys retrieved from the Hush Key Server Network All the user needs to know is that they can send mail and that it goes out securely. A HushMail user never has to deal directly with key exchange making HushMail Version 2.0 the easiest form of secure communication available. In addition, HushMail Version 2.0 offers a new, enhanced Outlook style GUI and advanced service features, such as storage management, attachment management, and improved folder functionality. With the improved interface, users will be able to conveniently track the status of received and sent messages. The new version is tailored to meet important requirements of personal clients for secure on-line communication and cost-effective delivery of important documents over the Internet. To upgrade to the new version users will receive notification to their current account detailing simple instructions on how to re-register their keys. Jon Matonis concluded, "With the launch of HushMail Version 2.0, we aim to better meet the requirements of personal users for secure on-line communication and transmission of critical messages and time-sensitive documents. HushMail Version 2.0 and other upcoming PKI applications will help Hush maintain its competitive edge in today's digital world and give added impetus to the overall growth of secure communications." As a member of the OpenPGP alliance (www.openpgp.org), Hush products offer OpenPGP compliance. Additionally, Hush is offering the chance to review recently released new products. The features and benefits of HushMail Version 2.0, among other Hush products, are available for review. About Hush Communications Hush Communications is the leading global provider of managed security solutions and encryption key-serving technology. It was awarded the full five stars for secure messaging product by Secure Computing Magazine, the Best Internet Security Freeware Award from Firewallguide.com and voted best Webmail service for travelers' mails by the Net Internet magazine. Hush distributes its solutions to the financial, medical and legal markets, and to general portals and enterprises. These solutions include encryption products and management services in the secure communications industry. The company's SDK (Software Development Kit) allows other Web-based infrastructure companies and application providers to design product and service offerings that utilize the Hush Key Server Network. Hush has strategic alliances with NetNation Communications (www.netnation.com)(Nasdaq:NNCI), Security Portal (www.securityportal.com) and Worldport Communications (www.wrdp.com)(WRDP.OB). Its investors include Offroad Capital Corporation (www.offroadcapital.com). Hush Communications Corporation is incorporated in the U.S. with operating subsidiaries in Dublin, Ireland, Salt Lake City, Utah, Vancouver, Canada and Anguilla, BWI. Hush is the provider of HushMail.Com and HushMail Private Label, the worldwide standards in secure messaging. For more information, visit the corporate site at www.hush.com. Note to editors: Hush product names and logos are trademarks of Hush Communications Corporation. All rights reserved. For further information contact: Ciara Hudson press at hushmail.com + 353 1 4357 831 From bob at black.org Thu Jul 19 09:19:03 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:19:03 -0700 Subject: over a billion tax dollars and a broadcaster gets a monopoly on it... Message-ID: <3B570877.FA203A84@black.org> >the 2002 Winter Olympics in Utah (which has cost the U.S. taxpayer $1.3 billion to date and >counting). http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20010719.shtml For 1.3e9, and some broadcast co. gets exclusive rights? Stream this, mofo... From povey at dstc.qut.edu.au Wed Jul 18 17:29:28 2001 From: povey at dstc.qut.edu.au (Dean Povey) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:29:28 +1000 Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings In-Reply-To: Message from dmolnar of "Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:19:04 -0400." Message-ID: <200107190029.f6J0TSm00571@thunder.dstc.qut.edu.au> >It's been a while since looking at the Springer-Verlag copyright notice. I >remember that it allows authors to publish papers on their web pages. Is >this correct? > >What are the ACM and IEEE copyright terms like? Do they also allow >publication on the web? I believe these terms also apply for ACM publications (but you might want to check), not sure about IEEE. -- Dean Povey, | e-m: povey at dstc.edu.au | JCSI: Java Crypto Toolkit Research Scientist | ph: +61 7 3864 5120 | uPKI: C PKI toolkit for embedded Security Unit, DSTC | fax: +61 7 3864 1282 | systems Brisbane, Australia | www: security.dstc.com | From mtumma at pyxis.net Wed Jul 18 22:30:50 2001 From: mtumma at pyxis.net (Amar) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:00:50 +0530 Subject: Hi Message-ID: Hi Cypher, this is Amar from hyderbad working for a Commercial web project in ASP technololgy, wanted information on encrypting Credit card no and pushing in to data base and decrypting while getting it to inerface .I have seen your question asked to internet community,by hoping that you have got answer i am writing this mail.If you have answer for this please provide information. Regards Marreddy Thumma Systems Executive Pyxis International Hyderabad Phone:91+40+6310245/6 From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 19 11:22:00 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:22:00 -0700 Subject: This Adobe stupidity... In-Reply-To: <799d62a0dbc4073b98b45dafc130fe0a@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719112115.04052660@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:53 PM 7/18/2001 -0500, "Public " wrote: >Seems someone has slipped up. > >The elcomsoft site and the Adobe eBook processing software is still >entirely available. Yes the SW is available, but only as a demo which enable 25% of the document to be operated upon. steve From Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk Thu Jul 19 03:29:05 2001 From: Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk (Pete Chown) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:29:05 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for FSE2001 proceedings In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:19:04PM -0400 References: <20010718182828.A8381@hyena.skygate.co.uk> Message-ID: <20010719112905.E9097@hyena.skygate.co.uk> dmolnar wrote: > For what it's worth, this is not my experience. While not every paper is > online, a large number of people make papers available from their web > pages. I've been trying to get hold of Hans Dobbertin's results on MD4, which was the original reason for my comment. Are these available on the web anywhere? I can't find them. I've seen a simplified version of MD4 in use which I think is an interesting target for cryptanalysis. One assumes that since MD4 is not collision free the simplified version is not. I would like to see if preimage attacks are possible on the simplified version. (Collision resistance is not actually important for the application where the simplified MD4 is in use.) -- Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Jul 19 08:32:47 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Condit: long criminal history Message-ID: <200107191532.LAA01701@www6.aa.psiweb.com> The brother of Congressman Condit, Darrell Wayne Condit, a bad boy with a record of DUI, driving with suspended license, MJ possession, is wanted for a violation of probation. FoxNewsChannel: "One report also has him as a sex offender". ---- Congressman Condit is hiding something: no one takes a private polygraph and refuses to take a police one unless they are hiding something. The police poly is much tougher because the will ask questions whose answers they already know from investigating. From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 19 11:47:46 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:47:46 -0700 Subject: Newsflash! Sklyarov Denied Access To Russian Consul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719114700.04052660@pop3.lvcm.com> Another protest site has sprung up http://www.boycottadobe.org/ steve From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 19 11:52:09 2001 From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (Brent) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:52:09 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists References: Message-ID: where did you here that they had SMG's I was told they had Sig 551's (an assault rifle) alpha ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Sandfort" To: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:41 AM Subject: RE: Killing the G8 Anarchists > Tim May wrote: > > > And even in Switzerland, my > > understanding is that the rifles > > issued to each male head of > > household (maybe single moms, but > > I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, > > not in shops and businesses and > > factories. Some of them might have > > carried their rifles to their > > businesses, though. > > Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and > pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory > part is offensive, but the result is that military personnel are usually > issued submachine guns which they keep--along with ammo and the rest of > their gear--in their home so that they can be called up quickly if > necessary. > > In addition, the Swiss have a high level of ownership of personal weapons. > Kids regularly take their .22 rifles to school for approved shooting > activities and business owners are often armed to the teeth. (Ask Duncan > about an eye-opening visit to the back room of a Swiss restaurant. > > Have you ever hear of a bank robbery in Switzerland? In most Swiss banks, > tellers are armed. They consider it their duty to chase down any bank > robbers that make it out of the bank alive. Don't fuck with the Swiss. > > > S a n d y From declan at well.com Thu Jul 19 09:00:30 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:00:30 -0400 Subject: Condit: long criminal history In-Reply-To: <200107191532.LAA01701@www6.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:32:47AM -0400 References: <200107191532.LAA01701@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010719120030.B2624@cluebot.com> Here's the link... Gotta love the Post... http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/35316.htm LEVY KIN: INVESTIGATE CONDIT BRO 2001-07-19 05:25:16 -Declan On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:32:47AM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > The brother of Congressman Condit, Darrell Wayne Condit, > a bad boy with a record of DUI, driving with suspended > license, MJ possession, is wanted for a violation of probation. > > FoxNewsChannel: "One report also has him as a sex offender". > > ---- > > Congressman Condit is hiding something: no one takes > a private polygraph and refuses to take a police one > unless they are hiding something. The police poly > is much tougher because the will ask questions > whose answers they already know from investigating. From mshaw at wwisp.com Thu Jul 19 10:03:21 2001 From: mshaw at wwisp.com (Mike Shaw) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:03:21 -0500 Subject: CRC-32 forger? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719120129.03c13838@207.98.230.22> Does anyone know of an existing tool to forge a CRC-32 fingerprint? Meaning I can record the sig, edit the file, and then get this program to pad the file with junk to make an identical sig? I know this is a pretty easy thing to do, but I'm looking for a tool so that I can say "there are already existing tools to do this". Thanks -Mike From cyber5person at chattown.com Thu Jul 19 12:30:52 2001 From: cyber5person at chattown.com (cyber5person at chattown.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:30:52 -0700 Subject: BOY 15 MAKES $71K 5 WKS Message-ID: <200107200005.RAA03459@ecotone.toad.com> $$$"TRUE STORY" SEEN ON ABC 20-20 BOY 15 MAKES 71 THOUSAND IN 5 WKS!!! U CAN 2!! AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: This is the one! PARENTS OF 15 YEAR-OLD FINDS $71,000 CASH HIDDEN IN HIS CLOSET Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program (USA). His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet. Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labeled piles. "My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- that's more than my husband earns in a year". The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered. He came home right away and they drove together to the boys school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet. As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of "Report" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off of the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom. "I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever 15-year-old. The E-mail letter listed 5 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the others addresses Down , and finally to add your name to the top of the list. The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the top of the 5-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. "About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelops stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all". Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail."The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, barely had time for my homework".He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. "I didn't want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack. I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in [to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me. One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs)." Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid.The reporting news team examined and investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all. In fact, it was completely legal according to; US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little notethat read, "Please send me report number XYX".This simple note made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (A Report on how-to) for a five-dollar fee. Here is the letter that the 15-year-old was sending out by E-mail, you can do the exact same thing he was doing, simply by following the instructions in this letter. Dear Friends & Future Millionaires: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time, THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! =================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Headland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ================================================== Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ===================================================== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ===================================================== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following.. THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!!!! INSTRUCTIONS: ============= Order all 5 reports shown on the list below For each report, send $5 CASH (US $), THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the peoplewho are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ============================================== Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY =============================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE IT OUT ! THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ====================================================== REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ================================================ Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. AVAILABLE REPORTS ================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. Hint: If you wrap your $5 bill in card or tag weight paper, light cannot shine through and expose your money and will less likely to disappear in the mail. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ======================================== REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: G.WILSON 1564 E.58TH AVENUE VANCOUVER, B.C. V5P 2C2 CANADA ========================================== REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: B. RODIMON 125 PLACE ROAD EAST HINESBURG, VT. 05461 USA ========================================== REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: L. BEASTER PMB 528 3090 GAUSE BLVD. SLIDELL LA. 70461 USA =============================================== REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: D. Hand 278 N.E. Kirby Ave Roseburg, OR 97470 USA ================================================= REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: M. Biddle 15 Wilson Close Sylvan Lake, Alberta T4S 1G2 CANADA =================================================== Please remember that your $5 bills are going all around the world and delivery of report could take up to 2-4wks. ===================================================== If you have any questions regarding this program send e-mail to me, Guy: depthsounder at OperaMail.com I will be more than happy to answer your questions ======================================================= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ======================================================= FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and havr moved the others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! Here are some MORE TESTIMONIALS: "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois =========================================================== ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ======================================================== ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks."Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ====================================================== ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to Internet. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ======================================================== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ========================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ---------------------------------------- Be Happy :-) :-) :-) From lokkie at lokman.nu Thu Jul 19 04:05:49 2001 From: lokkie at lokman.nu (Lokman Tsui) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:05:49 +0200 Subject: thesis 'internet control and the chinese government' Message-ID: hi declan, i wanted to point you to my thesis about 'internet control and the chinese government'. The final draft of my thesis is available at http://www.lokman.nu/thesis it is in pdf format and about 800kb. The abstract is below. Abstract Initially, the internet was an open medium with certain characteristics that made it hard to control. According to Western journalists and politicians, the efforts of the Chinese government to control the internet are doomed to fail. This study attempts to counter this view and discusses to what degree the Chinese government can control the internet in China and, more than that, to what degree the internet can be used as a means for control. Methodologically, the four modalities of control (the law, architecture, social norms and the market), set forth by Lessig will be used. As a result, this study will offer a legal, technical, social and economical perspective in discussing the degree of internet control in China. Lessig further argues that the architecture of the internet is undergoing changes that continue to enable control. A prime example of using architecture as a means of control is the concept of the Panopticon prison, invented by Bentham and mediated by Foucault. The concept of the Panopticon will be used to show how the internet can be used as a means for control. The conclusions are that the Chinese government are quite capable of controlling the internet in China and that China has the perfect ingredients for deploying a digital Panopticon. This digital Panopticon will continue to improve and develop, driven by the market. These conclusions show that the internet, to contrary belief, can be controlled and even be used as a means for control. Keywords internet regulation, internet control, social control, political control, censorship, privacy, surveillance, panopticon, Lessig, internet in China, Chinese Internet, media. -- "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." http://www.lokman.nu [-silent dreams-] http://www.wongkarwai.net Because We Have Taste ********** [Adam is replying to this, and the Subject: line was mine, I admit: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02275.html --DBM] From lokkie at lokman.nu Thu Jul 19 04:05:49 2001 From: lokkie at lokman.nu (Lokman Tsui) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:05:49 +0200 Subject: thesis 'internet control and the chinese government' Message-ID: hi declan, i wanted to point you to my thesis about 'internet control and the chinese government'. The final draft of my thesis is available at http://www.lokman.nu/thesis it is in pdf format and about 800kb. The abstract is below. Abstract Initially, the internet was an open medium with certain characteristics that made it hard to control. According to Western journalists and politicians, the efforts of the Chinese government to control the internet are doomed to fail. This study attempts to counter this view and discusses to what degree the Chinese government can control the internet in China and, more than that, to what degree the internet can be used as a means for control. Methodologically, the four modalities of control (the law, architecture, social norms and the market), set forth by Lessig will be used. As a result, this study will offer a legal, technical, social and economical perspective in discussing the degree of internet control in China. Lessig further argues that the architecture of the internet is undergoing changes that continue to enable control. A prime example of using architecture as a means of control is the concept of the Panopticon prison, invented by Bentham and mediated by Foucault. The concept of the Panopticon will be used to show how the internet can be used as a means for control. The conclusions are that the Chinese government are quite capable of controlling the internet in China and that China has the perfect ingredients for deploying a digital Panopticon. This digital Panopticon will continue to improve and develop, driven by the market. These conclusions show that the internet, to contrary belief, can be controlled and even be used as a means for control. Keywords internet regulation, internet control, social control, political control, censorship, privacy, surveillance, panopticon, Lessig, internet in China, Chinese Internet, media. -- "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." http://www.lokman.nu [-silent dreams-] http://www.wongkarwai.net Because We Have Taste ********** [Adam is replying to this, and the Subject: line was mine, I admit: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02275.html --DBM] From jya at pipeline.com Thu Jul 19 14:40:58 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:40:58 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft to Spotlight Dmitry? Message-ID: <200107191840.OAA15356@blount.mail.mindspring.net> The Department of Justice has sent out today an embargoed announcement of John Ashcroft's appearance tomorrow in Mountain View, CA, to speak on cybercrime: ----- Department of Justice For Planning Purposes Only - Not For Release AG July 19, 2001 (202) 616-2777 www.usdoj.gov TDD (202) 514-1888 In CA: Lani Miller, (703) 395-4484 Washinton, DC -- Attorney General John Ashcroft will visit Northern California tomorrow, Friday, July 20, to discuss cybercrime issues. When: 11:115AM (Pacific Time), Friday, July 20 What: Attorney General News Conference Regarding Cybercrime Where: VeriSign Wordlwide Headquarters 487 East Middlefield Road Mountain View, CA ----- Dmirty Sklyarov is due to be transferred any time now from Las Vegas to somewhere in the Northern California District. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 19 12:45:52 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:45:52 -0500 Subject: Neighborhood pooper snooper acquitted... Message-ID: http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,11%257E70942,00.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From rabbi at quickie.net Thu Jul 19 15:12:46 2001 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Demonstation at Adobe Monday Message-ID: For those of you who aren't familiar with what's happening here, please see http://www.planetebook.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=170 for details. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:39:03 -0700 From: Don Marti To: free-sklyarov at zork.net Subject: [free-sklyarov] San Jose Monday: schedule and directions This is a summary of the plans for the demonstration at Adobe that we discussed at the meeting last night. We agreed to meet at the park and walk to Adobe together, and the snake is an obvious meeting place that is close to, but out of line of sight from, Adobe HQ. Free Dmitry March on Adobe Monday, July 23, 2001, 11AM-1PM Downtown San Jose, California, USA MEET AT THE SNAKE: We will be meeting in downtown San Jose at the snake sculpture, Quetzalcoatl, which is at the south end of Cesar de Chavez Park, at the corner of South Market St. and West San Carlos St. Cesar de Chavez Park is across San Carlos from the Hyatt St. Claire Hotel, near the San Jose Convention Center. >From the snake we will walk to Adobe together. DIRECTIONS >From VTA light rail: Take the Santa Teresa/Baypointe line to the Convention Center stop. Trains run approximately every 10 minutes. The convention center is on the south side of the street; walk 1/2 block east on W. San Carlos St. to the snake. >From Caltrain: Transfer from Caltrain to the Santa Teresa/Baypointe light rail line at the Tamien station. VTA light rail schedules: http://www.vta.org/schedules/SC_901.html Driving: Downtown San Jose is easily accessible from US 101, Interstate 280, and California 87. See the URL below for maps and recommended routes: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?addr=S+Market+St+and+W+San+Carlos+St&csz=San+Jose%2C+CA Parking: An inexpensive pay parking lot is available at the San Jose Convention Center, across San Carlos from the snake sculpture. The entrance is from Almaden Blvd., one block west. Please do not park at Adobe! WHAT TO BRING Please bring a sign or a U.S. or Russian flag, and a cell phone if you have one. Keep signs simple (4 words is ideal) so that they are easy to read for people passing by. "Adobe: drop the charges" and "Free Dmitry" are examples. Free event T-shirts to the first 50 attendees. _______________________________________________ free-sklyarov mailing list free-sklyarov at zork.net http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov From rabbi at quickie.net Thu Jul 19 15:12:46 2001 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Demonstation at Adobe Monday Message-ID: For those of you who aren't familiar with what's happening here, please see http://www.planetebook.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=170 for details. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:39:03 -0700 From: Don Marti To: free-sklyarov at zork.net Subject: [free-sklyarov] San Jose Monday: schedule and directions This is a summary of the plans for the demonstration at Adobe that we discussed at the meeting last night. We agreed to meet at the park and walk to Adobe together, and the snake is an obvious meeting place that is close to, but out of line of sight from, Adobe HQ. Free Dmitry March on Adobe Monday, July 23, 2001, 11AM-1PM Downtown San Jose, California, USA MEET AT THE SNAKE: We will be meeting in downtown San Jose at the snake sculpture, Quetzalcoatl, which is at the south end of Cesar de Chavez Park, at the corner of South Market St. and West San Carlos St. Cesar de Chavez Park is across San Carlos from the Hyatt St. Claire Hotel, near the San Jose Convention Center. >From the snake we will walk to Adobe together. DIRECTIONS >From VTA light rail: Take the Santa Teresa/Baypointe line to the Convention Center stop. Trains run approximately every 10 minutes. The convention center is on the south side of the street; walk 1/2 block east on W. San Carlos St. to the snake. >From Caltrain: Transfer from Caltrain to the Santa Teresa/Baypointe light rail line at the Tamien station. VTA light rail schedules: http://www.vta.org/schedules/SC_901.html Driving: Downtown San Jose is easily accessible from US 101, Interstate 280, and California 87. See the URL below for maps and recommended routes: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?addr=S+Market+St+and+W+San+Carlos+St&csz=San+Jose%2C+CA Parking: An inexpensive pay parking lot is available at the San Jose Convention Center, across San Carlos from the snake sculpture. The entrance is from Almaden Blvd., one block west. Please do not park at Adobe! WHAT TO BRING Please bring a sign or a U.S. or Russian flag, and a cell phone if you have one. Keep signs simple (4 words is ideal) so that they are easy to read for people passing by. "Adobe: drop the charges" and "Free Dmitry" are examples. Free event T-shirts to the first 50 attendees. _______________________________________________ free-sklyarov mailing list free-sklyarov at zork.net http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov From jya at pipeline.com Thu Jul 19 15:20:02 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:20:02 -0700 Subject: This Adobe stupidity... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719112115.04052660@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <799d62a0dbc4073b98b45dafc130fe0a@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <200107191919.PAA03537@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Mirror of the ElcomSoft AEBPR trial version: http://cryptome.org/aebpr/aebpr22.zip (746KB) For cryptographic scientific research allowed under the DMCA here is a key from Anonymous to boost the trial version to its 100% capability (though not verified): LEPR-T2K7-NA8Z-3DUE-EVDQS-TMPV-MBAUB Bear in mind that Dmitry and ElcomSoft need funds for legal defense and purchasing a key for $99 through www.regnow.com is recommended, or sending the fee to ElcomSoft to avoid US forfeiture, or, more immediately effective, send to EFF which is assembling a legal defense team. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 19 13:17:34 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:17:34 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444A7@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found INFORME 24-X AL 24 MAYO 2001.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: INFORME 24-X AL 24 MAYO 2001", was sent from Ing. Sa繳l Flaschner and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com Thu Jul 19 16:31:51 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:31:51 -0700 Subject: StockNight - Vizario Licenses New Software Technology Message-ID: [Stocknight.com] [Image] [Image] Issue 10 July 19, 2001 Editor's Note [Image] It's safe to assume that most of us, certainly most of us investors, are cell phone users and a large portion of that group are also PDA and Pocket PC users as well. If you use either cell phones or wireless computers, we think that today's issue of StockNight will be more than a little intriguing. In December of 2000, Bill Machrone, a contributing editor with PC Magazine, stated that "Streaming video to portable devices will change the world as much as cell phones have" and fantasized about the uses of such technology: "You may be getting a visual check on traffic at those troublesome bottlenecks as you walk to your car in the parking lot, doing a security sweep of your home in your absence, or viewing the relatives' visit to Sea World in real time, or surreptitiously catching up on your favorite soap opera while at your desk. Or any of a hundred applications that no one has thought of yet. " However, techies have worried for some time about the need to compress streaming video for wireless due to the present difficulties and constraints in sending wireless video applications to cell phones, PDAs and Pocket PCs, as well as low speed modems. Today our StockNight featured company has stated in their press release issued at 6:02 p.m. EST, that they have licensed new patent pending "technology that automatically reduces the size and bandwidth of digital video files" to be sent to wireless devices. Remember, this press release was issued AFTER THE BELL today so the market at large has not been able to react to this news yet. As part of the StockNight service we bring this information direct to your email as soon as it is made available to us. Breaking News (OTCBB: VZRO) [Image] [Image] Vizario Licenses New Patent Pending Digital Video Condensing Software Technology. Patent pending technology automatically and significantly reduces the size of digital video files for wireless video applications. SAN CARLOS, Calif.----July 19, 2001-- Moving to ease the strain that video files place on low-bandwidth wireless networks, Vizario(TM), Inc. (OTCBB: VZRO) www.vizario.com) today announced it is licensing new patent pending software technology that automatically reduces the size and bandwidth of digital video files. Later this year, Vizario will incorporate the new technology in its mobile handheld device software system, which is designed for wireless video applications on cell phones, PDAs and Pocket PCs, as well as for use on low speed modems. Vizario Director David Schwartz, Digital Video Systems Engineering Manager Mike Chin and Senior Engineer Mike Tanaka have applied for the U.S. patent on the digital video condensing technology. ``It is clear that many people want digital video over low bandwidth wireless networks,'' Schwartz explained, ``but the sheer size of almost any video over three minutes long makes even previewing them problematic. Our new methods will make it easy for viewers to decide what they want to view or download without wasting time or money.'' Schwartz added, ``For system operators, we can substantially reduce the burden video places on wireless networks.'' The new video condensing software technology is being developed by Imaginon, Inc., the parent company of Vizario. The exclusive rights to use the new technology in wireless networks are licensed to Vizario. Designed to put new capabilities into wireless mobile devices, Vizario offers both consumers and businesses a completely integrated, end-to-end wireless solution for finding and displaying data - especially rich media like audio and video. The Vizario consumer product features a client/server publishing tool allowing content carriers, promoters and content providers to distribute media assets to end users through the Vizario client. It also incorporates a Web interface where end users personalize their mobile Vizario further to add additional queries that deliver customized content. This solution offers unsurpassed ease of deployment in both Java and .Net-enabled handsets. As a vertical application suite, Vizario is a complete solution for companies that require distribution of image-intensive data to mobile devices wherever finding, encoding, decoding and displaying images for decision support in the field is considered critical to the mission's success. Vizario is a trademark of Vizario, Inc. The underlying technology is protected under U.S. Patents and a U.S. Patent pending. Except for the historical information presented herein, the matters set forth in this press release are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the ``safe harbor'' provision of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, or by the Securities and Exchange Commission in its rules, regulations, and releases. These forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially. These risks include acceptance of Vizario software by developers and users, the successful development of competitive software to Vizario's, competitive pricing pressures for software and services, and the availability of financing to complete management's plans and objectives. In addition, other risks are detailed in Vizario periodic reports, Form 8-K of Vizario, filed on 5 June, 2001, and Rule 14F-1 Information Statement of Gallagher Research Corporation filed on May 10, 2001. These forward-looking statements speak only as of the date hereof. Vizario disclaims any intent or obligation to update these forward-looking statements. Click here for the entire release online: VZRO BREAKING NEWS Addtional VZRO Links & Data Machrone's Story on Wireless Video More VZRO info All VZRO News Vizario Home Page Ask VZRO Investor Relations a Question Receive More VZRO Info & Updates by Email Question of the day: Should Greenspan Lower Rates Again? Click here to comment on this and other Issues! Disclaimer & Safe Harbor Statement: SafeHarbor: This fact sheet contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of the 1934. These forward-looking statements can be identified by the use of forward-looking terminology such as may, could, expected to and believes. Actual events or performance involve risks and uncertainties that could differ materially from those anticipated in such forward-looking statements. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those projected in forward-looking statements include competition, themanagement of our growth and the ability to deliver new products to market on time. Such forward-looking statements are subject to other risks and uncertainties, which are detailed in the Companys filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Disclaimer: StockNight.com is a property of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which StockNight.com has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. MP currently owns 20,000 shares of VZRO common stock for services provided in the preparation and distributiion of this mailer in addition to exposure of the corporate press release in various Internet and conventional mediums/forums. The shares have been provided by JTR Financial. This constitutes a conflict of interest as to MPs ability to remain objective in its communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP is not an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. MP and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated. Copyright 2001 MP --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-163101P at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 12724 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 19 18:37:46 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:37:46 -0700 Subject: HushMail 2.0 released, supports OpenPGP standard In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010719083206.00aafdc0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719183518.03cd41a8@pop3.lvcm.com> Are any of those on the list with HushMail accounts having trouble? I've gone through the upgrade procedure which leaves you on a page with no exit and no login prompt. If you go back to the home page to login you're sent right back to the "migration" page and round you go. steve From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 19 18:47:51 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:47:51 -0700 Subject: SRK Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719184239.03ce5938@pop3.lvcm.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1527 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ashwood at msn.com Thu Jul 19 17:26:49 2001 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:26:49 -0500 Subject: HushMail 2.0 released, supports OpenPGP standard References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719183518.03cd41a8@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <047101c110b2$fe953920$28622a3f@josephas> What probably happened is that you didn't see the other windows come up where it was gathering entropy and needed your mouse input. If you don't see that window I can see where you wouldn't be able to upgrade. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Schear" To: Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 8:37 PM Subject: CDR: Re: HushMail 2.0 released, supports OpenPGP standard > Are any of those on the list with HushMail accounts having trouble? I've > gone through the upgrade procedure which leaves you on a page with no exit > and no login prompt. If you go back to the home page to login you're sent > right back to the "migration" page and round you go. > > steve > > From salim at zerogravity.homechoice.co.uk Thu Jul 19 12:32:56 2001 From: salim at zerogravity.homechoice.co.uk (Salim Hasham) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 20:32:56 +0100 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at giganetstore.com Thu Jul 19 12:54:05 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 20:54:05 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Leil=F5es_ao_pre=E7o_da_Banana_em_gigaleilao.com.pt?= Message-ID: <008960554191371WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Os leil繭es ao pre癟o da Banana no Gigaleil瓊o.com.pt N瓊o perca estas oportunidades... Speed - Perigo A Alta Velocidade - DVD Agarrem-se bem para uma torrente de emo癟繭es fortes. Espectacular DVD, novo a estrear. Fecho 25/07 12:30 Base de licita癟瓊o 900$ ALIEN 3 - A Desforra - DVD O TERCEIRO CAPTULO DA PODEROSA E ASSUSTADORA SAGA ALIEN! Ao pre癟o da banana. Fecho 25/07 12:20 Base de licita癟瓊o 900$ Impressora Lexmark Z32 Impressora de qualidade nova e a pre癟o de saldo? A impressora Lexmark Z32. Um Grande neg籀cio! Fecho 25/07 12:25 Base de licita癟瓊o 9.500$ Natural Keyboard Elite Um teclado de excel礙ncia da Microsoft ao pre癟o da banana! Grande oportunidade Fecho 25/07 12:15 Base de licita癟瓊o 1.900$ E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com.pt . O novo servi癟o de leil繭es da giganetstore.com in矇dito e inovador no mercado online portugu礙s. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7706 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 19 21:03:22 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 21:03:22 -0700 Subject: Russian hacker nabbed by FBI lost in federal prison system In-Reply-To: <20010719211906.A15437@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010719210322.0084c610@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:19 PM 7/19/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > As a side note, the chief of security for the Alexis Park Hotel -- > where the Defcon convention took place and where Sklyarov was arrested > -- professed to know nothing. When asked about the arrest, he said: "I > have no idea." When pressed about contact with the FBI, he admitted: > "The FBI advises us if they are going to be on our property, but they > don't tell us why. The FBI did advise us they would be on our property > Monday morning." FWIW, Tomlinson in _The Big Breach_ asserts that many senior hotel security folks sleep with the spooks. From declan at well.com Thu Jul 19 18:19:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 21:19:06 -0400 Subject: Russian hacker nabbed by FBI lost in federal prison system Message-ID: <20010719211906.A15437@cluebot.com> http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/07/19/2332232 Russian Hacker Arrested by FBI Goes Missing posted by declan on Thursday July 19, @06:12PM from the where-is-dmitry-sklyarov dept. --- Dmitry Sklyarov is missing. The 27-year old Russian programmer and hacker who was arrested after Defcon was last spotted at 3 pm Monday, when he made a brief court appearance in Las Vegas. He's charged with violating the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Now he's adrift inside the federal prison bureaucracy. A managing director of ElcomSoft, Sklyarov's employer, says he has no idea where his colleague is. Says ElcomSoft's Vladimir Katalov: "Of course they really worry about him, because FBI/police didn't allow Dmit to talk to his family." An informed source in the U.S. Attorney's office in San Francisco said that after Sklyarov's court visit on Monday he was turned over to the U.S. Marshals. The source said Sklyarov is likely out of contact since he's in transit to California. Typically prisoners are moved to a holding facility in Oklahoma until there's a scheduled transport to San Francisco, much as FedEx routes packages through central hubs. The government source said prosecutors receive almost no warning from the marshals when prisoners will appear -- sometimes they get a phone call, and sometimes the marshals simply take the prisoner to the court with no notice. The U.S. Marshals did not return phone calls. The U.S. Attorney's offices in San Francisco and Las Vegas said they did not know where Sklyarov was. An assistant U.S. Attorney in Las Vegas said that he wasn't familiar with the details of the case, but in general meeting with a detainee isn't a big deal: "Anyone can meet with a prisoner, you just head up to the prison and ask to see him." (That supposes that you know where he is.) Rene Valladares is an assistant federal public defender in Las Vegas who represented Sklyarov during the hearing on Monday. He said Sklyarov would arrive in California between now and two weeks from now (at the latest), at which point a judge will decide if he needs a public defender. As a side note, the chief of security for the Alexis Park Hotel -- where the Defcon convention took place and where Sklyarov was arrested -- professed to know nothing. When asked about the arrest, he said: "I have no idea." When pressed about contact with the FBI, he admitted: "The FBI advises us if they are going to be on our property, but they don't tell us why. The FBI did advise us they would be on our property Monday morning." Background The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) says in section 1201 that: "No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof" that has as its primary use (or is marketed as) circumventing copy protection. Sklyarov is charged with one count of trafficking in illegal circumvention software. Section 1203 of the DMCA includes civil remedies, which is what the movie studios are using against 2600 magazine. 2600 distributed DeCSS via its website at no charge. Section 1204 of the DMCA lists the criminal penalties -- up to a $500,000 fine and five years in federal prison. Those apply to "any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain." This section took effect in October 2000. Because Dmitry's firm sold their software for "private financial gain," the Feds believe they can prosecute under the part of Sec. 1204 that would likely not have applied to 2600. A prediction: Because of the DMCA, U.S. conferences with cutting-edge technical content in this area likely will begin to move offshore or to Canada. If you present your paper at a U.S. conference and get paid to speak, you could be the next person nabbed by the FBI. Even if there's no "financial gain," you or the conference organizers could be sued civilly (see the threats against Ed Felten's abandoned presentation at the Information Hiding Workshop in April). _________________________________________________________________ Relevant links: Department of Justice press release (7/17/2001) free-sklyarov mailing list (7/18/2001) BoycottAdobe.com (7/18/2001) EFF notice on protests scheduled for July 23 (7/19/2001) PlanetEBook report on arrest (7/16/2001) Text of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act _________________________________________________________________ McCullagh.org photographs: Photos from mccullagh.org of DMCA appeal (5/2001) Photos from mccullagh.org of DMCA protest on Capitol Hill (4/2000) Photos from mccullagh.org of DMCA trial (7/2000) Photos from mccullagh.org of Defcon '00 (7/2000) _________________________________________________________________ Politech archives: Politech archive on U.S. v. Sklyarov Politech archive on DeCSS lawsuit against 2600 magazine Politech archive on Princeton University's Ed Felten's struggle with the recording industry Politech archive on the Digital Millennium Copyright Act _________________________________________________________________ News articles: (newest first) Civil Liberties Group Blasts Adobe For Aiding FBI In Arrest Jul. 19, 2001 19:35 ET www.newsbytes.com/news/01/168152.html Russian busted for breaking ebook code Jul. 19, 2001 16:02 ET www.taipeitimes.com/news/2001/07/19/story/0000094859 Russian computer programmer arrested at hacker conference Jul. 19, 2001 15:15 ET cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2001/07/19/hack_arrest010719 On the Net Jul. 19, 2001 14:14 ET www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=203955 Boycott Adobe campaign launches Jul. 19, 2001 12:35 ET www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/20499.html Russian accused of ebook violation Jul. 19, 2001 06:57 ET www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Jul-18-Wed-2001/news/16563325.html Hacker Arrest Stirs Protest Jul. 19, 2001 06:45 ET www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45342,00.html Arrest in e-book fraud case Jul. 19, 2001 05:51 ET www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/07/18/BU166008.DTL&type=business Arrest in e-book fraud case Jul. 19, 2001 05:50 ET www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/07/18/BU166008.DTL FBI arrests software writer Jul. 19, 2001 05:45 ET www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/nation/docs/hacker18.htm U.S. Arrests Russian Cryptographer as Copyright Violator Jul. 19, 2001 03:35 ET dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20010718/tc/u_s_arrests_russian_cryptographer_as_copyright_violator_1.html Adobe Alerted Government To Russian Software Crack Jul. 18, 2001 19:35 ET www.newsbytes.com/news/01/168098.html Russian to face US hacking charges Jul. 18, 2001 19:14 ET www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=203680 Russian faces e-book copying charges Jul. 18, 2001 17:15 ET afr.com/it/2001/07/19/FFXO62NZ9PC.html Russian Hacker Arrested After Las Vegas Convention Jul. 18, 2001 17:11 ET dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010718/tc/tech_hacker_arrest_dc_3.html Arrest fuels Adobe copyright fight Jul. 18, 2001 11:10 ET www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2790369,00.html?chkpt=zdnn_nbs_ hl FBI arrests software writer Jul. 18, 2001 05:45 ET www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/nation/docs/020263.htm Russian computer programmer arrested Jul. 18, 2001 05:45 ET www0.mercurycenter.com/business/top/011788.htm DMCA bust at Def Con Jul. 18, 2001 04:59 ET www.securityfocus.com/templates/article.html?id=225 FBI agents pounce on Defcon hacker Jul. 18, 2001 04:47 ET www.silicon.com/public/door?REQUNIQ=995446010&6004REQEVENT=&REQINT1=45819&REQSTR1=newsnow Russian Hacker Arrested After Las Vegas Convention Jul. 17, 2001 23:11 ET dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010717/tc/tech_hacker_arrest_dc_1.html FBI nabs Russian expert at Def Con Jul. 17, 2001 21:10 ET www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5094266,00.html?chkpt=zdnn_nbs_hl FBI Arrests Russian Creator Of E-Book-Decoding Software Jul. 17, 2001 17:35 ET www.newsbytes.com/news/01/168042.html Russian hacker arrested after convention Jul. 17, 2001 15:40 ET www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/07/17/hacker.arrest.reut/index.html eBook security debunker arrested by Feds Jul. 17, 2001 14:35 ET www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/20444.html Russian Adobe Hacker Busted Jul. 17, 2001 12:45 ET www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45298,00.html From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 19 22:13:02 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:13:02 -0700 Subject: "SPY" REALITY TV SHOW Message-ID: Any Cypherpunks interested in being "spies" for glory and cash prizes?: http://abc.go.com/primetime/spy/spy_casting.html S a n d y From amaha at vsnl.net Thu Jul 19 20:20:31 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:20:31 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107200320.f6K3KQq24183@ak47.algebra.com> As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live. --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ======================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. 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That was a sad day in U.S. history, though by modern standards the troops were positively restrained and cordial. -Declan On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 04:50:29AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Declan hypothesized: > > >This is amazing. If anything like this was even attempted in DC, > >we'd have dozens of federal agencies, and perhaps armed troops, > >converging on the U.S. Capitol. > > > >-Declan > > Something was attempted like that in DC -- The Bonus Marchers in 1932. > And although there weren't as many federal agencies back then, the armed > troops did show, including Patton, Eisenhower, MacArthur, cavalry, and some > tanks. From vavlap at yahoo.com Fri Jul 20 01:02:43 2001 From: vavlap at yahoo.com (Veselin Vladislavov Vavrek) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 01:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: remove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010720080243.84939.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! 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Other companies, products, or services may be trademarks or service marks of others and are referenced for informational purposes only. ======================================================================== $嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭P嚙x You have received this mailing because you have chosen to recieve Go!Zilla-related updates and newsletters. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, please click on the following link to be unsubscribed immediately. http://listserv.gozilla.com/users/unsubscribe.php?user_id=987912&email=cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com From nobody at dizum.com Thu Jul 19 19:50:29 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 04:50:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: violent antitax protest/riot in US Message-ID: Declan hypothesized: >This is amazing. If anything like this was even attempted in DC, >we'd have dozens of federal agencies, and perhaps armed troops, >converging on the U.S. Capitol. > >-Declan Something was attempted like that in DC -- The Bonus Marchers in 1932. And although there weren't as many federal agencies back then, the armed troops did show, including Patton, Eisenhower, MacArthur, cavalry, and some tanks. From balun_bong at cnnic.cn Fri Jul 20 06:36:05 2001 From: balun_bong at cnnic.cn (Mr. Falun Gong) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:36:05 -0700 Subject: Crypto waits for the next generation.. Message-ID: <3B5833C5.3BAC9EBF@cnnic.cn> As widely discussed here, Joe Sixpack just doesn't use crypto enough. But as Joe spies on his kids, his kids will learn the value of spending a little time to learn the tech. Private diaries, correspondence, browsing. Even non-deliquent teens crave privacy. And Joe *does* spy on his kids, as this irritating article shows: ................................................................................... http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19PARE.html July 19, 2001 Looking For Clues In Junior's Keystrokes By LISA GUERNSEY T was in the spring of last year when a divorced mother of two teenagers in Livingston, N.J., realized that her 14-year-old son's online habits called for drastic steps. For months he had been glued to the family computer at all hours, getting into online quarrels. His grades were sinking, and letters from America Online were piling up, citing violations of its policy against vulgar language in its forums. His mother tried parental-control software, but he circumvented it within minutes. She tried closing the family's America Online account several times; feigning her voice, he had it reopened. She installed hardware requiring a password to be entered to start the computer; he reconfigured the circuitry to get back in. One night, in desperation, she slept with the power cord under her pillow. So the mother who asked not to be identified for this article out of concern that her son's activities could affect custody arrangements took the computer away. For seven months she hid the computer tower in the trunk of her car, covered with blankets. In August, she said, "he got it back, with the explicit understanding that I have the passwords to all his screen names." Since then she has been vigilant in inspecting the cache of Web sites he has visited, checking the Recycle Bin for signs of trouble. "He certainly improved my computer skills," she said. Teenagers, the moment you have been dreading has arrived: Parents are starting to get a clue about the Internet, and they are more and more determined to gain control of where you go, what you read, whom you talk to and how you behave online. The Internet age is ushering in a new mode of parental oversight, one in which Mom and Dad draw Web-based boundaries, issue computer curfews and worry about whether their hack-happy youngsters are making trouble. Granted, many parents would still not know a motherboard from Mother Hubbard, but that doesn't mean they are not trying. In a recent survey by the Pew Internet and American Life Project, a nonprofit research center, more than 60 percent of parents reported that they checked to see which Web sites their teenagers had visited. About 60 percent of the 754 parents surveyed also said that they had set time limits for Internet use. In a survey of 774 parents conducted for Disney Online, 71 percent said they had set rules about what kinds of content their children could see online, and 88 percent said they had forbidden Internet access in the bedroom (a rule that the mother in Livingston swears by). In interviews for this article, some parents said they had no qualms about reading their children's e-mail by logging in under their screen names. Others reported that they had learned to distinguish between the pause-laden typing patterns that signal that their children are doing homework and the frenetic tap-tap-tap of instant messaging. It is the modern equivalent of listening furtively at the bathroom door after the teenager drags the phone in there for a private conversation. Roni Murillo, a mother in Syosset, N.Y., said she has "sneak-in times" when she tries to read the instant messages sent and received by her 15-year-old son, who once received a citation from AOL for posting a note containing profanity in a professional- wrestling forum. "I have to do it," she said, though abashedly. "I've seen other kids answer him with all these curses. There is no way to monitor that unless you are right there." The snooping, needless to say, does not sit well with those snooped upon. Checking e- mail In boxes is considered the most flagrant privacy violation. "That's just wrong," said Freddie Alvarez, a 16-year-old from Islip, N.Y., who said he bought his own computer so he can use it whenever he wants. Other teenagers liken the e-mail box to a diary in arguing for their right to privacy. Jen Albanese, 16, from Bergenfield, N.J., uses command keys to minimize her instant-messaging screen whenever her mother walks into the room. "She'll be like over my shoulder, saying: `Jen what are you doing? Why did you put that screen down?' " she said. The primary threats driving them to set rules, many parents say, are online pornography and child predators. But 45 percent of the parents surveyed by Pew said they also worried that their children might be the instigators of misbehavior like online threats or hacking. For some reason, many parents report, the boys seem more inclined than the girls to get into trouble. Recent surveys may validate their concerns. In an online poll conducted by Scholastic News Zone, an educational Web site, almost half of the 47,235 respondents, in grades one through eight, said they did not consider hacking a crime, even though unauthorized entry into computer networks is illegal. In Pew's study, about 9 percent of boys ages 15 to 17 reported that they had sent prank e-mail or an "e-mail bomb," which clogs people's e-mail In boxes with dozens or hundreds of copies of the same message. Even when their teenagers seem to have no inclination toward computer mischief, parents have another concern: the sheer amount of time the children spend online. Robert and Marilyn Pohn of Chicago require their 15-year-old daughter and 12- year-old son to seek permission before going online and constantly check to ensure that they are using the computer only for schoolwork. Lauren, their daughter, seems resigned to the restrictions, remarking that the situation could be worse: "I have a friend who has an hour on Fridays. That's it. She's not happy." David Blair, a software programmer and father of two teenagers in Fairfield, Iowa, decided that rules were not enough. He designed a shareware program called TooMuchPC that enables parents to set an automated timer that shuts down the computer at specific times or after a specified number of hours. In his house, where the computer is in the family office, a little window pops up on the screen when one of his children has been on the machine for an hour, to signal that it is the sibling's turn. His daughter, he said, "is addicted to ICQ," the instant-messaging tool, and used to fight over the computer with her brother, who wanted to play Soldier of Fortune. Now harmony reigns. "It is great," he said. "It eliminated all those arguments." From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 20 06:28:48 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:28:48 -0500 Subject: Tear gas fired in G8 clashes Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/20/genoa.protests/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 20 06:30:10 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:30:10 -0500 Subject: China shuts down 2,000 net cafes Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/07/20/china.internet.reut/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 20 07:06:24 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:06:24 -0500 Subject: City council splits on Ybor cameras, Greco to have last word Message-ID: http://24.94.156.250/newsstory.asp?storyname=2001/July/19/ybor James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 20 07:08:28 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:08:28 -0500 Subject: Genoa Summit: Anti-aircraft guns and 150,000 protestors await world leaders Message-ID: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/europe/story.jsp?story=84376 Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 20 06:28:16 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:28:16 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444AB@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found comunicaci籀n audiencia.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: comunicaci籀n audiencia", was sent from Cecilia Gonzalez Ferro and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 20 09:58:10 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:58:10 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists Message-ID: I've watched this list with bemusement as several of you have cheered on the G8 "Anti-Globalist" black-shirted twentysomethings. Watching the street riots in Genoa on CNN, watching the supermarkets and gas stations being torched and vandalized, all I can think is this: WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY? Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire? Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not like our Korean and white merchants in L.A., who used shotguns and AR-15s to kill the blacks and Mexicans who tried to burn down their stores. The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name. Seems to me that killing several dozen of them would send a good message. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From amaha at vsnl.net Fri Jul 20 08:04:19 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:04:19 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107201504.f6KF4Iq12077@ak47.algebra.com> As a well spent day brings happy sleep, so life well used brings happy death. --Leonardo da Vinci ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From schear at lvcm.com Fri Jul 20 10:07:38 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:07:38 -0700 Subject: FW: FW:Read this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010720100159.04021fe0@pop3.lvcm.com> >----- Original Message ----- >From: Teja Yalgi >To: VaniJayanthi ; CSN ; Deepta ; BV Ramakrishna ; >yatinder_n at dev.vsofti.stph.net ; gopi at dev.vsofti.stph.net ; >srraju at dev.vsofti.stph.net >Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 2:16 PM >Subject: FW:Read this... > > > Hi > > This is Jitendra Vaidya today I was visiting the > > official website of the > > government of the USA with a good intention of > > wishing them a happy > > independence day. While reading the profile of the > > president Bush, I could > > read that He has a cat & he has named it INDIA. > > > > Visit this URL to see this > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/ > > > > This is disgusting He must have done it on purpose, No he did it accidently. > > because nobody names > > their dogs or cats in the name of any country even > > by remote chance. Don't be so sure. I know several people who have named their dogs after locations. Wasn't "Indiana Jones" revealed as the name of the dog, by Sean Connery's character, in "The Last Crusade"? >I > > specially wanted to point it out to show that this > > does show what George > > Bush actually thinks of India What you really want to know is if he kicks the dog. steve From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Jul 20 11:01:21 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:01:21 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE > PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR > PROPERTY? > > Why are't shop owners spraying the > looters with automatic weapons fire? > > Because, of course, Europeans are > disarmed. Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists." S a n d y From ming at planetmongo.net Fri Jul 20 11:03:13 2001 From: ming at planetmongo.net (ming) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "SPY" REALITY TV SHOW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kind of like Snowcrash... [This is a sig file] On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Any Cypherpunks interested in being "spies" for glory and cash prizes?: > > http://abc.go.com/primetime/spy/spy_casting.html > > > S a n d y From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Jul 20 11:13:37 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:13:37 -0700 Subject: MY THREE SONS Message-ID: Isn't it interesting that all three of the Condit boys went bad? One's a freelance criminal, one's a cop and one's a congressman. Bad parenting or heredity? You be the judge. S a n d y From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 20 11:17:07 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:17:07 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0700 7/20/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Tim May wrote: > >> WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE >> PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR >> PROPERTY? >> >> Why are't shop owners spraying the >> looters with automatic weapons fire? >> >> Because, of course, Europeans are >> disarmed. > >Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral >damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm >sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having >their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists." True enough, though this in some sense is a quibble. I mean "nearly all Europeans." There are a few pockets where gun ownership is still permitted, but the trend in most of Europe is to disarmament of the citizen-units. (And as Declan pointed out in his message, the cops do what cops usually do: they pulled back, abandoned the citizen-units to the mobs, and munched on the Italian version of doughnuts (biscotti?). And even in Switzerland, my understanding is that the rifles issued to each male head of household (maybe single moms, but I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, not in shops and businesses and factories. Some of them might have carried their rifles to their businesses, though. (This is what the Korean merchants mostly did. They camped out in their stores all night and shot from rooftops as looters and arsonists approached. Interestingly, though t.v. cameras captured footage of rioters being shot by Koreans, even killed, there were no attempted prosecutions of these Koreans. Realpolitik meant the dead rioters were just part of the "57 killed in the L.A. riots." Which is as it should be.) I assume this will be the last such Public G8 Extravaganza held in a major city. Between Seattle, Gothenburg, and now Genoa, the costs are too high. The taxpayers of Genoa and Italy are stuck with a $110 million security bill, according to CNN. Probably higher. And the city has been shut down by the preparations. Probably not even much restaurant business, certainly nothing to compensate the actual taxpayers. Having these meetings in "securable" locations, like Davos, makes a lot more sense. "Twenty thousand blackshirt "Warriors Against Capitalism" caught in blizzard on march up to Davos...thousands feared frozen!" Of course, there is really no need for these kinds of meetings. Putin is there to beg for more handouts from the G7, the Gay Lobby is simpering about committing a billion dollars to AIDS research and needle exchange programs, and the corporate interests are seeking ways to reduce competition by upstart companies. The more things change.... --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From Lara at WirelessDeveloper.com Fri Jul 20 09:17:36 2001 From: Lara at WirelessDeveloper.com (Lara Croft) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:17:36 -0500 Subject: WirelessDeveloper 2001 - Registration just opened! Message-ID: <995645856.516@WirelessDeveloper.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 34297 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 20 11:24:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:24:29 -0700 Subject: MY THREE SONS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0700 7/20/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Isn't it interesting that all three of the Condit boys went bad? One's a >freelance criminal, one's a cop and one's a congressman. Bad parenting or >heredity? You be the judge. The cop is also, from news reports, a dirty cop, using his position of power in ways that citizen-units would be sent to jail for. According to news reports out of Modesto, the big brother (tm) Condit was involved in taking handguns out of the Modesto P.D. and selling them on the street to the usual suspects. As for the direction they all took, they all got into the same basic line of work. Shakedowns and rent-seeking. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Jul 20 11:41:57 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:41:57 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim May wrote: > And even in Switzerland, my > understanding is that the rifles > issued to each male head of > household (maybe single moms, but > I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, > not in shops and businesses and > factories. Some of them might have > carried their rifles to their > businesses, though. Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory part is offensive, but the result is that military personnel are usually issued submachine guns which they keep--along with ammo and the rest of their gear--in their home so that they can be called up quickly if necessary. In addition, the Swiss have a high level of ownership of personal weapons. Kids regularly take their .22 rifles to school for approved shooting activities and business owners are often armed to the teeth. (Ask Duncan about an eye-opening visit to the back room of a Swiss restaurant. Have you ever hear of a bank robbery in Switzerland? In most Swiss banks, tellers are armed. They consider it their duty to chase down any bank robbers that make it out of the bank alive. Don't fuck with the Swiss. S a n d y From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 20 11:56:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:56:03 -0700 Subject: Denmark bows to U.S., enacts anti-piracy search and seizure law In-Reply-To: <20010720140620.A26118@cluebot.com> References: <20010720140620.A26118@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:06 PM -0400 7/20/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/06/26/042210 > > Denmark Enacts Anti-Piracy Search and Seizure Law > posted by vergil on Friday July 20, @10:51AM > from the battering-ram-of-the-bsa dept. > > If you needed further proof of the U.S. software industry's global > muscle, keep reading. The U.S. government, acting on behalf of > American firms, has successfully pressured Denmark to change > its laws. A document unearthed by Cluebot.com describes how the new > law allows physical searches for supposed copyright infringements > "without prior notification." It's surprising to me that there has not been a major test case in the U.S. on the growing use of warrantless searches--searches of houses by the Child Protection Police, searches of businesses by the Microsoft Protection Police, etc. It's as if the Fourth Amendment is now "dead letter law" (to coin a phrase). And while we all know that Europe and Russia are not covered by the U.S. Constitution, it is unacceptable that the U.S. sends money and experts to Europe, Russia, and other parts of the world to teach them to spy on citizens (FBI assistance to Russian security services, for example), to kill citizens (CIA manuals), and to throw out any semblance of respect for property (copyright raids). --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 20 12:06:45 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:06:45 -0700 Subject: "panda huggers" vs. the new McCarthyism In-Reply-To: <04d830a7184890616f491e8d7db29823@freemail.cotse.com> References: <04d830a7184890616f491e8d7db29823@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: At 2:49 PM -0400 7/20/01, Faustine wrote: > >But there is another side to the story. As Rand held conferences with >experts and conducted its analysis, it seemed that the eventual report >would depict China as a growing military powerbut as no match for the >United States in the near future. The NICitself under pressure from >Republican hawks in Congressappeared to be looking for a different, more >alarming conclusion. At one point, for instance, the NIC pressured Rand to >add several specific China hard-liners to its conference roster, U.S. News >has learned. "They want China to be 10 feet tall," complains one analyst >familiar with the project. "They're cooking the books." Faced with >resistance from Rand, according to some sources, the NIC decided to seek a >more compliant contractor. A senior intelligence official denies that the >NIC was shopping for a predetermined result. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Forty years ago Rand was quite willing to "cook the books" to produce reports warning of the "missile gap" between the U.S.S.R. and the U.S. At a time when the Russians were still hauling artillery pieces around with horses, they were portrayed by Rand and other think tanks as 10-foot tall military geniuses with vast manufacturing plants. The buyers of Rand's product, the new Kennedy administration, was very happy with the product. >"Panda huggers." China looms as the biggest factor in U.S. defense policy >since the demise of the Soviet Union. A militarily aggressive China would >give defense planners a useful foil: an identifiable enemy. The military-industrial complex needs a major enemy to justify more Seawolf submarines (which the Navy doesn't want), more B2 bombers (which are too unwieldy to use in battle, too visible to radar to be called "stealth"), more aircraft carriers (to fight wars simultaneously all around the globe), and more sabers to rattle. There had been some idle chatter about "terrorism" being this Scary Enemy, but it turns out that not a lot of B2 bombers and Seawolf submarines get justified as part of the War on (Some) Freedom Fighters. So they're playing the China card. Same old same old. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 20 10:08:40 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: Protestor dies in G8 Summit clash Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/20/genoa.protests/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From balun_bong at cnnic.cn Fri Jul 20 12:10:48 2001 From: balun_bong at cnnic.cn (Mr. Falun Gong) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:10:48 -0700 Subject: copyright justice; What do you get if you cross Adobe with Jack Valenti Message-ID: <3B588238.D30DB6DC@cnnic.cn> What do you get if you cross Adobe with Jack Valenti? An asshole who jails the guy who sells patch cords to connect VCRs... Here's a video store owner doing time for profiting from illegally duped material. No circumvention devices needed. This is just, proper, and traditional use of the law. The man who sparked furious protests in Little Saigon by hanging a poster of Ho Chi Minh and flying a Vietnamese flag in his video store is scheduled to surrender to authorities today and begin serving a 90-day jail sentence. Truong Van Tran, 39, of Stanton was charged with video piracy under state law after police who were at his Bolsa Avenue store in 1999 to protect him spotted 147 videocassette recorders in his shop, Hi Tek TV & VCR, and later determined he had 17,000 bogus videos. He was convicted in August 1999 and sentenced to 90 days in jail and three years' probation. He has been free on bail while he appealed his conviction. The state Supreme Court refused to hear his case in May. http://latimes.com/news/local/orange/la-000059255jul20.story?coll=la%2Deditions%2Dorange%2Doc%5Fnews From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Jul 20 12:46:44 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:46:44 -0700 Subject: WHAT THE SWISS HAVE Message-ID: Folks, Here's a Swiss military museum site: http://www.cybershooters.org/morges_museum.htm Here's what they say about Swiss firearms ownership: One of the most common things you will find in Swiss homes, the SIG 90 assault rifle. The Swiss Army comprises 450,000 men who are given their service rifles and who have to complete a minimum of two weeks service each year, serving from the age of 18 until they are 50 (this age will be dropped to 45 soon). After completing their service, the fully-automatic capability of the rifle is permanently disabled, and the rifle is given back to the former soldier who may keep it. Soldiers are also issued a comprehensive cleaning kit, three 20-round magazines, and a "corn-beef can" of 50 rounds of 5.6mm ammunition, as well as a bayonet. Swiss soldiers must practice their marksmanship regularly under the terms of the Obligatory Rifle Shooting Programme. Switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, yet maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate. The part I like is that the wording suggests that the writer is surprises that a population can have a lot of guns and "yet maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate." Duh. S a n d y From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 20 04:13:08 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:13:08 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: FC: China can use Net for control; response from Adam Powell (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:29:58 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech at politechbot.com Cc: lokkie at lokman.nu Subject: FC: China can use Net for control; response from Adam Powell ******* From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 20 04:13:08 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:13:08 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: FC: China can use Net for control; response from Adam Powell (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:29:58 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech at politechbot.com Cc: lokkie at lokman.nu Subject: FC: China can use Net for control; response from Adam Powell ******* From declan at well.com Fri Jul 20 10:20:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:20:59 -0400 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 09:58:10AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010720132059.A24891@cluebot.com> On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 09:58:10AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not like our Korean and > white merchants in L.A., who used shotguns and AR-15s to kill the > blacks and Mexicans who tried to burn down their stores. Worse yet, apparently the shopkeepers of Genoa were strongly encouraged by the government to head out of town. Then the barricades went up around the "red zone" and shops and businesses not inside it seem to be receiving minimal, if any, police protection. In other words, the Europeans are disarmed, pressured to leave town, and then they can watch CNN with us as their shops are looted and smashed and the cops hunker down inside the red zone. -Declan From matt at rearviewmirror.org Fri Jul 20 13:24:25 2001 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:24:25 -0700 Subject: WHAT THE SWISS HAVE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:46:44 -0700 "Sandy Sandfort" wrote: > Folks, > > Here's a Swiss military museum site: > > http://www.cybershooters.org/morges_museum.htm > > Here's what they say about Swiss firearms ownership: > > One of the most common things you will find in Swiss > homes, the SIG 90 > assault rifle. The Swiss Army comprises 450,000 men who > are given their > service rifles and who have to complete a minimum of two > weeks service each > year, serving from the age of 18 until they are 50 (this > age will be dropped > to 45 soon). After completing their service, the > fully-automatic capability > of the rifle is permanently disabled, and the rifle is > given back to the > former soldier who may keep it. Soldiers are also issued > a comprehensive > cleaning kit, three 20-round magazines, and a "corn-beef > can" of 50 rounds > of 5.6mm ammunition, as well as a bayonet. Swiss > soldiers must practice > their marksmanship regularly under the terms of the > Obligatory Rifle > Shooting Programme. Switzerland has one of the highest > rates of gun > ownership in the world, yet maintains a remarkably low > homicide and armed > crime rate. > > The part I like is that the wording suggests that the > writer is surprises > that a population can have a lot of guns and "yet > maintains a remarkably low > homicide and armed crime rate." Duh. Hmm... my reading of the page, particularly given the domain the page is at and the banners at the bottom, is that the author is using irony. I doubt he or she is really surprised. 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From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Jul 20 13:31:56 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:31:56 -0700 Subject: Swiss and Firearms. was: Re: Killing the G8 Anarchists References: Message-ID: <003e01c1115b$053a0870$d2972040@thinkpad574> Let me make some minor (nitpicking) corrections. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Sandfort" To: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:41 AM Subject: RE: Killing the G8 Anarchists > Tim May wrote: > > > And even in Switzerland, my > > understanding is that the rifles > > issued to each male head of > > household (maybe single moms, but > > I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, > > not in shops and businesses and > > factories. Some of them might have > > carried their rifles to their > > businesses, though. > > Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and > pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory > part is offensive, but the result is that military personnel are usually > issued submachine guns which they keep--along with ammo and the rest of > their gear--in their home so that they can be called up quickly if > necessary. Mandatory is a flexible word in this case. It's pretty easy to avoid service if you really want to and are willing to pay a waiver fee or to substitute service. (The fee is returned if you make up the service). The latter is more difficult, but not impossible. There are provisions also for the exemption of 'conscience objectors.' One will have better luck in the French Cantons than the German on this point. Every reservist or regular must compete in compulsory shooting exercises yearly. It's not much of a chore. Over 200,000 citizens voluntarily compete in the national 300m long rifle contest each year. Women compose about 30% of the participants in recent years. Personally, I think mandatory service, when the requirements are as light as they are in Switzerland, is a good thing (tm). It's actually not "military personnel" but more like every household that is required to maintain firearms. It is true that each reservist or regular in the army is issued a service rifle and two boxes of nicely sealed ammunition. Most cantons, however- and particularly the German side- require every household to maintain a fully serviceable weapon and other supplies. Some cantons will even perform spot inspections and assess fines if the weapons are not in proper order and ammunition not properly stored in the right amount. The mobilization goal of Switzerland is to have their autonomous civil defense zones up and ready to fight in 48 hours or less. Most cantons and sub zones are tuned to mobilize in an afternoon. Places like Zurich and Geneva might have more extensive preparations and hence long mobilization times. The Swiss standard issue rifle is the outstanding Sig SG 550, but the Swiss call the service rifle the Stgw90 (Sturmgewehr 90). They also call the ammunition the GeweherPatronen 90. GP90. It's a 5.6mm round (to distance themselves from NATO) but entirely interchangeable with SS109 ammo. All the Sig 550's will take NATO 5.56 ammo without a hiccup. They even have 1 in 7 twists and will deal with heavy or light NATO ammo well. All service rifles for the military are manufactured exclusively at the Sig factory in Schaffhausen. Having visited there I can attest that I'd be happy to eat off the floor and ask for seconds. Substituting the SG 550 for the SG 552 Commando Carbine is an option. > In addition, the Swiss have a high level of ownership of personal weapons. > Kids regularly take their .22 rifles to school for approved shooting > activities and business owners are often armed to the teeth. (Ask Duncan > about an eye-opening visit to the back room of a Swiss restaurant. Outside of military service firearms are easy to come by and concealed carry permits equally easy (with exceptions in some cantons like Vaud). In most cantons a Swiss citizen is automatically considered a "collector" after his or her fifth weapon purchase. The application for a license was becoming such a rubber stamp process by 1996 that a proposal was made to pre-print application forms with "for collection purposes" under the reason for requesting a license. (That being the politically correct reason to request a firearm at the time). The police were not amused so you actually have to write that down now. I've never experienced a permit application that took longer than 30 days to approve, incidentally. Fully automatic weapons are obtainable if you are a collector. (i.e. have purchased 5 other weapons). There is no restriction, other than common sense, on the purchase of ammo. Individuals can freely import 500 rounds of ammo per instance, if they don't want to buy Swiss. I'm not sure why anyone would prefer not to buy Swiss ammo. > Have you ever hear of a bank robbery in Switzerland? In most Swiss banks, > tellers are armed. They consider it their duty to chase down any bank > robbers that make it out of the bank alive. Don't fuck with the Swiss. Not only that but the Swiss assign specific officers to bank duty on a given shift. They are generally armed with fully automatic weapons and have a poor sense of humor when on duty. I can relate from personal experience the plight of a French youth who attempted to rob a bank in Zurich. He held up the teller (a charming young woman) with a .22 pistol and demanded 100,000 CHF. The teller calmly reached into the bank drawer, placed a stack of bills on the counter. While the French youth gawked at the bills the teller calmly drew a 9mm pistol and deposited two rounds in the youth's collarbone and shoulder. The youth fell to the ground, dropped his pistol, recovered briefly, picked up the gun again (probably a fatal mistake) and fled the bank. Unfortunately for the youth the bank manager (wearing what must have been a $3500 suit) drew his own concealed handgun and gave chase. Outside of the bank the youth turned around on the street on hearing the shout of the manager, raised his weapon and was promptly dispatched by the bank manager with a chest-head double tap. Police arrived on the scene, (in about 30 seconds as a bank duty officer was across the street) took the report of the bank manager, asked for (and were refused) a copy of the bank surveillance tape (which was later provided to the head administrative officer reviewing the case) and left. The entire incident was cleared up and forgotten in 3 hours. The bank continued to transact business throughout the entire affair. Messing with a Swiss bank is like messing with a lion's dinner. Speaking of G8 nonsense- I suspect that if held in Switzerland most of the merchants and land owners would be asked to leave because the authorities would not want a bunch of dead foreigners. I can assure you that no shop owners would have been "spraying looters with automatic weapon fire." Instead they would have been surgically dispatching each and every participant with center mass three-round-bursts. While killing several dozen might send a good message, killing every single one of them with Swiss (read military) like precision would be bad press for a low-profile country. The Swiss are very stern- if politely so- if you break the rules. If you break them violently they are just as politely lethal and simply will not let you interefere with the conduct of business. From FrogRemailer at NoReply.Invalid.com Fri Jul 20 06:46:58 2001 From: FrogRemailer at NoReply.Invalid.com (Frog2) Date: 20 Jul 2001 13:46:58 -0000 Subject: Indian Cats - was: "Read this..." Message-ID: You stated: > [President Bush] has a cat & he has named it INDIA. > This is disgusting He must have done it on purpose, > because nobody names their dogs or cats in the name > of any country even by remote chance. I specially > wanted to point it out to show that this does show > what George Bush actually thinks of India. > Over & above this, look at their arrogance that they > post it on official website of Whitehouse. This is > really an insult of a country like us which has > history & civilisation of thousands of years as compared > to that of a nation born out of criminals like USA. [stuff] > Post a protest message... be a True Indian. > JITENDRA VAIDYA I am shocked and amazed! At first I thought Bush had named his cat for "India Crude" which is a kind of oil, since he was in the oil business. I see now how wrong I was! You are right of course, about the superiority of India. I recognize India's greatness in the cause of world water conservation as well, particularly the sacrifices Indians have made in the area of personal hygiene by showering only once every 15 days- all for the cause of world thirst! As such I am moved- near tears- to support your efforts. As a statement of dedication to your cause I have decided to rename my own cat, who I used to call "dothead" to "Jitendra" in your honor. Since that's pretty hard to say every time I want the cat to stop pissing on something I'm going to call him "Jizz" for short! Thanks for helping to keep this kind of country bashing under control! Hey, by the way, did you know that the British call bathrooms "the loo" ? I think Lulu's of the world need to unite and stop this kind of intentional slander! I know you Indians, who can't stand the colonialist scum who tried to build some kind of modern infrastructure in your country at their own expense and spoiled the natural state of the population in the process, will want to do anything you can to stick it to the Brits. How can we let this stand? I know I can count on your support by sending protest letters to the British Embassy! Thanks! From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Jul 20 14:01:58 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:01:58 -0700 Subject: What the Swiss have In-Reply-To: <200107202010.QAA02986@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: "George at Orwellian.Org" asserted: > A different society. > > It [a heavily armed population with > a low homicide/crime rate] wouldn't > work here. I'm not sure where George's "here" is, but in the US the facts say otherwise. Every state that has increased the availability of concealed carry permits has seen dramatic decreases in crime (a 40% decrease in the case of Florida). For the last score of years, crime has been decreasing per capital as the number of guns in the US has increased both per capita and absolutely. The state that has NO restrictions on concealed carry, Vermont, is one of the very safest states in the union. S a n d y From declan at well.com Fri Jul 20 11:03:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:03:47 -0400 Subject: FC: Denmark bows to U.S., enacts anti-piracy search and seizure law Message-ID: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/06/26/042210 Denmark Enacts Anti-Piracy Search and Seizure Law posted by vergil on Friday July 20, @10:51AM from the battering-ram-of-the-bsa dept. If you needed further proof of the U.S. software industry's global muscle, keep reading. The U.S. government, acting on behalf of American firms, has successfully pressured Denmark to change its laws. A document unearthed by Cluebot.com describes how the new law allows physical searches for supposed copyright infringements "without prior notification." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Fri Jul 20 11:06:20 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:06:20 -0400 Subject: Denmark bows to U.S., enacts anti-piracy search and seizure law Message-ID: <20010720140620.A26118@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From bille242001 at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 20 05:22:04 2001 From: bille242001 at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?CLAUDE=20BILLE?=) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:22:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: security on GSM (interception and crypto attacks). Message-ID: <20010720122204.54827.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> forward from anonymous Friday,20 jul 001 I read with a lot of interest your article(s) on interception and crypto attacks on GSM during the period of 8 oct 98 to 28 oct 98. I am a student engineer on telecommunications in Africa and I am writing an end of course dissertation on "the security of GSM communications".I would like to get more information on this topic. I would be most grateful if could send to me necessary information that would enable me show how a GSM phone call can be pirated or taped, as well as methods on how to detect such piracy, by the end of this month, given that my dissertation defence(presentation) is programmed for early next month. Yours sincerely. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Vos albums photos en ligne, Yahoo! Photos : http://fr.photos.yahoo.com From bille242001 at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 20 05:36:52 2001 From: bille242001 at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?CLAUDE=20BILLE?=) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:36:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: security on GSM (interception and crypto attacks). Message-ID: <20010720123652.31190.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> forward from anonymous Friday,20 jul 001 I read with a lot of interest your article(s) on interception and crypto attacks on GSM during the period of 8 oct 98 to 28 oct 98. I am a student engineer on telecommunications in Africa and I am writing an end of course dissertation on "the security of GSM communications".I would like to get more information on this topic. I would be most grateful if could send to me necessary information that would enable me show how a GSM phone call can be pirated or taped, as well as methods on how to detect such piracy, by the end of this month, given that my dissertation defence(presentation) is programmed for early next month. Yours sincerely. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Vos albums photos en ligne, Yahoo! Photos : http://fr.photos.yahoo.com From bille242001 at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 20 05:41:24 2001 From: bille242001 at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?CLAUDE=20BILLE?=) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:41:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: security on GSM (interception and crypto attacks). Message-ID: <20010720124124.13745.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Friday,20 jul 001 I read with a lot of interest your article(s) on interception and crypto attacks on GSM during the period of 8 oct 98 to 28 oct 98.I am a student engineer on telecommunications in Africa and I am writing an end of course dissertation on "the security of GSM communications".I would like to get more information on this topic. I would be most grateful if could send to me necessary information that would enable me show how a GSM phone call can be pirated or taped, as well as methods on how to detect such piracy, by the end of this month, given that my dissertation defence(presentation) is programmed for early next month. Yours sincerely. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Vos albums photos en ligne, Yahoo! Photos : http://fr.photos.yahoo.com From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Jul 20 11:49:48 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "panda huggers" vs. the new McCarthyism Message-ID: <04d830a7184890616f491e8d7db29823@freemail.cotse.com> US News & World Report 7/23/01 CHINA How big a threat? Inside the bitter fight over assessing China's intentions By Richard J. Newman and Kevin Whitelaw It was originally created by the U.S. Air Force and is now entrusted with some of the U.S. government's most sensitive and secretive national security studies. So executives at Rand, a think tank based in Santa Monica, Calif., were stunned when intelligence officials called on June 8 to say they were firing Rand from a classified project ordered by Congress to assess China's future military capabilities. The National Intelligence Council (NIC), a group that reports directly to CIA chief George Tenet, concluded that Rand was failing to do its job adequately and decided it needed to hire another contractor. But there is another side to the story. As Rand held conferences with experts and conducted its analysis, it seemed that the eventual report would depict China as a growing military powerbut as no match for the United States in the near future. The NICitself under pressure from Republican hawks in Congressappeared to be looking for a different, more alarming conclusion. At one point, for instance, the NIC pressured Rand to add several specific China hard-liners to its conference roster, U.S. News has learned. "They want China to be 10 feet tall," complains one analyst familiar with the project. "They're cooking the books." Faced with resistance from Rand, according to some sources, the NIC decided to seek a more compliant contractor. A senior intelligence official denies that the NIC was shopping for a predetermined result. Either way, the controversy provides a window into the battle underway in Washington over how great a threat China poses in the next decade or soa debate that has intensified since the arrival of the Bush administration with its agenda to increase military spending and build a missile defense system. In this instance, the full storylike the initial work performed by Randis hidden from public view by government secrecy. The outcome of the larger debate, however, will have huge ramifications for the future security posture of the United States and billions of dollars in defense spending. "Panda huggers." China looms as the biggest factor in U.S. defense policy since the demise of the Soviet Union. A militarily aggressive China would give defense planners a useful foil: an identifiable enemy. That's just what a self-styled "Blue Team" of conservatives foreseesa China intent on annexing Taiwan, by force if necessary, and dominating Japan and South Korea. That would put China on a collision course with the United States, thereby justifying a surge of U.S. spending on weapons ranging from Stealth bombers to the national missile shield. A docile and more democratic China, on the other hand, would undercut calls for higher defense spending. With a Communist government once again in the cross hairs, passions are ramping up to a Cold War pitch. Blue Teamers label those who disagree with them "panda huggers." Blue Teamers, in turn, have been derided as "the storm troopers." At meetings for the Rand study during the spring, project managers had to establish rules forbidding personal insults. Shouting erupted at several meetings, according to people who were present. Blue Team participants complained later of feeling ignored during conference sessions. Says one: "It was clear that they were just going through the motions." The raw emotions stem from more than personal disagreements. Over the past decade, many more members of Congress and their staffers have received access to the Central Intelligence Agency's classified intelligence. The GOP-controlled Congress, deeply distrustful of the Clinton administration's handling of defense and foreign policy, began asking for alternative assessments. "In recent years, there has been a lot of second-guessing of the CIA's analyses," says Steven Aftergood of the Federation of American Scientists. Congress's 1999 intelligence bill, for example, suggested that the China- Taiwan Issues Group in the CIA's Directorate of Intelligence was prone to "group think" and directed the CIA to expose its China analysts to "contrary thinking" to challenge their suppositions. Republican Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, says the intelligence community "was not rigorous in its analysis" of the future potential China threat. An external commission established by last year's intelligence bill, and chaired by retired Army Gen. John Tilelli, accused the CIA of an "institutional predisposition" to play down the China threat, in a classified report delivered to Congress last week. But intelligence analysts view Congress's new activism as an alarming effort to bully the CIA into producing analyses consistent with conservative ideology. "If you're on the inside, you feel like you're being pilloried," says a former intelligence official. "It's very McCarthyesque," adds another. A number of analysts involved with the scotched Rand report believe that this fiasco represents a rare instance when motives to generate evidence in support of predetermined conclusions were laid bare. "Coming from this Congress, it did worry me [from the beginning] that there was an intent on getting a specific answer," says one close observer. What makes China especially controversial is that Western intelligence agencies know so little about it. "We knew way more about the Soviet Union than we do about China," says one Pentagon official who has worked on several China studies. Influential Pentagon strategist Andrew Marshalla key adviser to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeldhas long argued that Pentagon planners need to focus more on Asia. No common ground. So little hard information leaves wide room for interpretation among analysts trying to puzzle out the enigmatic Asian nation. "No one disputes the basic fact of China's military buildup," says Arthur Waldron of the University of Pennsylvania. "The argument is about its significance." Hawks see a massive military buildup at a time when China has no discernible enemywhich can only mean its arsenal is directed at the United States. Others see a second-rate military power struggling to modernize a force with outdated tactics and ancient equipment. The rancor stemming from ideological differences seems to have hardened positions. "The middle ground is sparsely populated," observes one analyst. On paper, there seems to be a lot to worry about. The Pentagon estimates that China could build as many as 1,000 ballistic missiles per year over the next decade. Most of those would be designed to strike airfields, aircraft carriers, ports, and other key facilities in the event of a war over Taiwan. As many as 650 of those may be deployed near the coast opposite Taiwan and targeted directly at the renegade province. China is building space reconnaissance satellites that would be able to track U.S. aircraft carriers and other forces during a conflict. It will soon have a cruise missile like the U.S. Tomahawk. Participants at the Rand conferences raised other intriguing concerns. Several suggested that Chinese agents have penetrated U.S. bases in Okinawa, Japan, and perhaps elsewhere in the Pacific. That could help China gain key intelligence during a conflict and even conduct sabotage or terrorism. But China, with a decrepit industrial base and a risk-averse socialist bureaucracy, faces even more difficulty than advanced nations in developing high-tech weaponry. And China's leaders face handicaps other nations don't. For starters, Beijing's Communist leadership appears far more concerned about threats from inside China than about extending its military reach. China's People's Liberation Army includes 10 divisionsthe total number in the active-duty U.S. Armydedicated solely to maintaining internal order. China also faces a mounting financial crunch. While its economy is growing rapidly, the Chinese government still supports numerous Soviet-style, state- run businesses, which mostly lose money. "Just floating all these state- owned enterprises is almost driving them bankrupt," says Richard Dunn, a retired Army colonel and China specialist at defense contractor SAIC. Meanwhile, Chinese troops appear to be minor leaguers compared with their American counterparts. Many U.S. experts blamed the April collision between an EP-3 surveillance plane and a Chinese fighter jet on poor skills by the Chinese pilot. Chinese leaders are aware of their military limitations. That's why Chinese defense planners stress "asymmetrical" warfare rather than attempt to match the U.S. jet for jet and ship for ship. China's asymmetrical approach is to develop weapons and strategies that would most effectively counter U.S. strengths: lasers or jammers to disrupt U.S. satellites and other "eyes and ears"; submarines that might be able to sink a large U.S. ship and produce a disconcerting list of casualties; and, of course, hundreds of missiles that would be hard to shoot down and would force American forces to operate without access to many of the ports and airfields they typically rely on. But this capability does not yet exist. "Not only can't we predict which way they're going to go," says Dunn, "I think they can't predict which way they're going to go." Infighting. A much safer forecast is that the China slugfest will continue to rage among U.S. strategists and probably intensify. Armed with a critical Tilelli reportand perhaps a second damning report from whomever the CIA selects to replace RandCapitol Hill Republicans could call for a "Team B" reassessment of the China threat. That's what happened in the 1970s, when Congress appointed a second team of outsiders to re-examine the Soviet threat. That assessment portrayed a much more serious military buildup than previously thought, which triggered Ronald Reagan's huge boosts in defense spending in the 1980s. And in 1998 a commission headed by Rumsfeld reported that the ballistic missile threat to the United States was more serious than the CIA had been reporting. The CIA, in response, heightened its own estimate of the threat. Republicans hoping for a similar outcome on China may even find help from across the political aisle, where liberals decry China's labor and human- rights practices. Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia last year helped create the U.S.-China Security Review Commission, whose job is to gauge whether China's trade relationship is influencing U.S. national security decisions. The committee has $3 million for its work over the next several years. By then, perhaps it will be clearer whether China is public enemy No. 1 or just a public-relations ploy. From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Jul 20 12:01:43 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, Message-ID: <59b4ab0fa120609037ad0b48604e20b2@freemail.cotse.com> Jim wrote: >> > I find it much more plausible that commies did bad things, things >> > characteristic of commies, because they were bad people. > > Faustine >> True: but then there's always the gray area of exactly what's done in >> the name of "what bad people deserve" that keeps me uneasy about the >> whole thing. Have you read Gordon Thomas' book about the Mossad, >> "Gideon's Spies"? He was allowed to interview all the top agency >> people, so you can be sure nothing got out the agency didn't want >> out. Even still, it's a fascinating, hard-hitting look at what >> happens when an organization of brilliant, ruthless people come to >> exist in a system with limited accountability: hardcore realpolitik >> at its most elemental. > > We know the spooks do bad things. They have done bad things to people > who post on this list. We also know commies do bad things. > > The argument I object to is that all the bad behavior, the > authoritarianism, the crimes, the repression, that we saw from the new > left during the seventies is somehow the fault of the spooks, and > somehow not the fault of the people who were doing it. Point well taken. But the same could be said of the "crimes and bad behavior" at Waco and Ruby Ridge; it might have been their fault, but they sure as hell didn't deserve what ultimately happened to them any more than the commies did. I'm not out to defend any ideology, only the idea of government agents' accountability to the rule of law. ~Faustine. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 20 12:31:45 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Condit on crack Message-ID: <200107201931.PAA02981@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Condit was apparently caught throwing stuff out before the search of his apartment. Specifically, a box that held a pair of glasses. Someone saw him throwing it out, reported it to the DC police, they retreived it from the trash, tracked it down to another adulterous affair. And the [black] minister who said his daughter had an affair with Condit but wouldn't admit it because of threats, has now recanted, saying he made it up. Cheeyeah, right. From bounty.org at bounty.org Fri Jul 20 15:36:36 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:36:36 -0700 Subject: What the Swiss have In-Reply-To: <200107202118.RAA14914@www6.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200107202118.RAA14914@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0400 7/20/01, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Sandman wrote: ># ># I'm not sure where George's "here" is... > >New York City, Third Planet From the Sun. Try moving out of a socialist third-world country. From bounty.org at bounty.org Fri Jul 20 15:38:38 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:38:38 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:56 PM -0500 7/20/01, Jim Choate wrote: >On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >> Tim May wrote: >> >> > WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE >> > PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR >> > PROPERTY? >> > >> > Why are't shop owners spraying the >> > looters with automatic weapons fire? >> > >> > Because, of course, Europeans are >> > disarmed. >> >> Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral >> damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm >> sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having >> their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists." > >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). Most of those protesters are white Europeans. The only thing they are protesting is their own lack of understanding. From declan at well.com Fri Jul 20 12:51:29 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:51:29 -0400 Subject: Condit on crack In-Reply-To: <200107201931.PAA02981@www4.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 03:31:45PM -0400 References: <200107201931.PAA02981@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010720155129.A29596@cluebot.com> Watch case, actually. www.nydailynews.com/2001-07-20/News_and_Views/Beyond_the_City/a-118981.asp www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/29756.htm -Declan On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 03:31:45PM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Condit was apparently caught throwing stuff out before > the search of his apartment. Specifically, a box that > held a pair of glasses. Someone saw him throwing it > out, reported it to the DC police, they retreived it > from the trash, tracked it down to another adulterous > affair. > > And the [black] minister who said his daughter had > an affair with Condit but wouldn't admit it because > of threats, has now recanted, saying he made it up. > > Cheeyeah, right. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 20 13:10:12 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What the Swiss have Message-ID: <200107202010.QAA02986@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Sandman wrote: # # The part I like is that the wording suggests that the writer # is surprises that a population can have a lot of guns and "yet # maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate." Duh. A different society. It wouldn't work here. ---- If you have a dent on your car, your Swiss neighbors will turn you in to the police. Seriously. From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 20 16:19:00 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What the Swiss have In-Reply-To: <200107202010.QAA02986@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Sandman wrote: ># ># The part I like is that the wording suggests that the writer ># is surprises that a population can have a lot of guns and "yet ># maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate." Duh. > >A different society. > >It wouldn't work here. People are surprising. Even the most idiotic can show a grain of common sense once they realize that their accustomed prey is carrying. I'd bet that, after an initial few killings, an amazingly polite and civil society would develop. Bear From grocha at neutraldomain.org Fri Jul 20 16:44:40 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:44:40 -0700 Subject: WHAT THE SWISS HAVE Message-ID: <20010720164440.N20170@neutraldomain.org> "Shoot twice" - the caption on a Swiss postcard of 1914, depicting a Swiss militia man being asked by the Kaiser what the Swiss would do if he sent an army of half a million Germans against the quarter million Swiss Army. I like the attitude though. -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 14:54:37 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:54:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One of the points that Tim is missing is that these demonstraters are only protecting their property, in their view. As usual, Tim confuses 'God $ Fascist' with 'Anarchist'. On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > I've watched this list with bemusement as several of you have cheered > on the G8 "Anti-Globalist" black-shirted twentysomethings. > > Watching the street riots in Genoa on CNN, watching the supermarkets > and gas stations being torched and vandalized, all I can think is > this: > > WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY? > > Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire? > > Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not like our Korean and > white merchants in L.A., who used shotguns and AR-15s to kill the > blacks and Mexicans who tried to burn down their stores. > > The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name. > Seems to me that killing several dozen of them would send a good > message. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 14:56:10 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:56:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Tim May wrote: > > > WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE > > PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR > > PROPERTY? > > > > Why are't shop owners spraying the > > looters with automatic weapons fire? > > > > Because, of course, Europeans are > > disarmed. > > Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral > damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm > sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having > their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists." Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 14:57:59 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:57:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and > pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory > part is offensive, Just another example of why the C-A-C-L contingent doesn't have a clue, no concept of 'citizen' and 'responsibility' (outside of personal wealth). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Fri Jul 20 17:12:57 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:12:57 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists Message-ID: Inchoate sputtered: > ...The real reason they're not > sensitive to these particular > 'anarchist' is that they aren't > motivated by the alure of money. > They aspire to a higher calling > than crass commercialism or > puritanical ego fulfillment... Oh boy! If Jim REALLY believes this crap (where does he get this stuff?), I have some great seaside property in Florida, I think he should invest in. ;-D "Save the whales." (We'll eat them later.) S a n d y From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 20 14:18:25 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What the Swiss have Message-ID: <200107202118.RAA14914@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Sandman wrote: # # I'm not sure where George's "here" is... New York City, Third Planet From the Sun. From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Fri Jul 20 14:48:43 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Community & Commentary, 07-20-01 Message-ID: <20010720214843.316E724B11@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Community & Commentary (July 20, 2001) It's All About Making Money Information to provide you with the absolute best low and no cost ways of providing traffic to your site, helping you to capitalize on the power and potential the web brings to every Net-Preneur. --- This Issue Contains Sites Who Will Trade Links With You! --- ------------- IN THIS ISSUE ------------- Doin' It, Doin' It, Doin' It... and the only thing worse than a bad ad campaign Member Showcase Commentary Quick Tips Win A FREE Ad In Community & Commentary ||| =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>> Today's Special Announcement: ||| =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>> "NOTHING BUT NET" This is the success story of one guy working out of his parent's basement, who went from 0 to $750,000 in sales in his first year on the internet. 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To find out even more: http://activemarketplace.com/w.cgi?net-8886 ||| =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>> You are a member in at least one of these programs - You should be in them all! http://www.BannersGoMLM.com http://www.ProfitBanners.com http://www.CashPromotions.com http://www.MySiteInc.com http://www.TimsHomeTownStories.com http://www.FreeLinksNetwork.com http://www.MyShoppingPlace.com http://www.BannerCo-op.com http://www.PutPEEL.com http://www.PutPEEL.net http://www.SELLinternetACCESS.com http://www.Be-Your-Own-ISP.com http://www.SeventhPower.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Doin' It, Doin' It, Doin' It... and the only thing worse than a bad ad campaign =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dumber than a doornail - that's what he was - one of the richest home- based businessmen I have ever had the opportunity to know personally. For purposes of anonymity, lets call him Jack. Jack wasn't your typical sharp-as-a-tack businessman, nor was he what you might term a master marketer. Actually, he wasn't really even all that bright. He was one of those types that, though he dressed nicely, when he opened his mouth, you would grit your teeth hoping he wouldn't say something terribly foolish or offensive. About seven years ago, Jack approached my husband and me about providing a certain service for his expansive downline in a network marketing company. While we were not interested in network marketing, nor did we believe we would gain a significant number of customers through this business relationship, Jack convinced us to provide this service for his organization. What followed blew our minds. Once we had all things set up and customized to begin taking orders, Jack made an announcement to his downline. The orders immediately began to trickle in. Jack sent out reminders for several weeks. The orders came by the thousands. We had to hire more employees to take Jack's orders. Every month, orders increased and business was booming. Through many meetings over the next few months, we got to know Jack. One of his associates had put together a fairly unattractive executive summary for all distributors to use. We offered to redo it free of charge. Jack declined and said he wanted it up right away... as is. Surely, even not-so-bright Jack could see the importance of reworking this document that thousands of distributors would be using. Nevertheless, the executive summary went out "as is." We felt sure it would backfire. But, do you know that things actually picked up faster soon after it was distributed? My husband and I scratched our heads as we wondered what in the world Jack knew that we didn't. What was so fantastic about Jack that he could have such influence over so many people. He said, "Jump," and thousands of people asked, "How high?" Why? Jack invited us to accompany him to a conference he was putting together. We were to present our services to his audience. My husband and I went and took a small sales force with us. During Jack's lectures, we left our booth to peek in every so often. Throughout that whole three-day conference, I never heard Jack say anything of real consequence. Yes, there was a lot of hype, but there wasn't anything truly solid to the information he presented. In fact, Jack would inevitably say something, quite frankly, stupid right in the middle of his lectures. Yet, at Jack's suggestion, people continued to sign up for our services in droves. It wasn't until the end of the conference that we figured out what it was that made Jack so successful. Do you know what the secret to his success was? He actually practiced what he preached. You see, Jack understood two things quite well. 1) He knew that to get a desired outcome, he had to actually DO something to get there. 2) He understood the exponential power of leveraging. Each person in that room that he could get to DO something to work toward his goal would exponentially get him there that much faster. For purposes of this article, we're only going to take a look at the first item above... doing something. During those three days, Jack must have used the phrase, "Doin' It, Doin' It, Doin' It," several dozen times. It really was quite annoying. But, it didn't sink in until the end of the conference what he was trying to teach his audience... That if they would just do something - anything - every day toward their goals, they would get there. It's so simple, it sounds ridiculous. Yet, that is exactly what not-so- bright Jack did to get to his millions. He just started doing something. He didn't wait until he had enough money to start his business (he started flat broke with a young family). He didn't wait until the executive summary was perfect, nor did he wait until his company had a whole slew of products to sell. He knew where he wanted to be, simply started with what he had and DID SOMETHING - every day. How does the saying go? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." How about this one, "You can't wish your way into heaven." This is equally true of business dreams. A dream is nothing more than a dream until you do something to make it a reality. The plain and simple truth is that you can't wish your way to riches. You've got to do something about it. The problem most of us face is that, though we have an idea of what ultimate outcome we want, the process of getting there seems overwhelming. Taking off bite-size pieces each day is a much better way of getting there. And... it works! Not-so-bright Jack is living proof of this principle. Trust me, my saying that if Jack can do it, anyone can, is not just some trite phrase. Okay, let's take a break for a short quiz. Q: Do you know what's worse than a bad sales aid? A: No sales aid at all. You know, my husband and I feel like we really missed out on something at that conference. What did we miss out on? Opportunity. Sure, we took in plenty of orders. But, on our way home in the plane, we both realized that if we had taken one sales aid (a piece of equipment that would help those people with the service we were offering), we would have sold 100's of them at a $100 profit each. We wouldn't have had to stock any inventory or purchase the equipment up front. We just needed to provide the sample piece of equipment, an order form for taking orders, and then have them drop-shipped in order for us to have pocketed an additional $10,000 to $20,000 in those three days. It wouldn't have made a huge difference how perfectly formatted our order forms were. Simply having an order form - any order form - would have sold plenty. This is a concept that not-so-bright Jack understood very well. He was anxiously engaged in "doin' it, doin' it, doin' it," and in the process made his millions. We have tried to take Jack's advice over the years. It takes time and experience to come to understand the significance of this simple concept... doing something every day. His advice has made and is making a difference in our own business. Now, ask yourself if there is something you have thought about doing but have put off, a wish you would like... no... NEED to make a reality. Do you have an eBook you have been wanting to write but are afraid you won't have the time to finish before the market is saturated? Perhaps you are waiting to perfect it before releasing it? Are you afraid you won't know how to market it? Have you joined a company as a distributor, read over the materials, but just haven't brought yourself to making a call or two? Have you wanted to put up a website for your products or services, but the task seems too daunting or too expensive? Is there a business you would really like to start but are afraid of failure? Perhaps you feel you don't have the capital to get it going? If so, I challenge you to start now, today, to write down your desired outcome and make it a goal. Then, do something - anything toward that goal every day. Don't wait for perfect circumstances. Don't wait for the ideal sales aid. Don't wait for the money. Don't let self-doubt, fear, time-wasters or money keep you from doing some little thing each day. You may still have your doubts and fears, but by doing something every day and seeing your progress over time, you will soon find your doubts and fears fading away. Whether it be a simple phone call, an email, trading links, writing a few words, sketching an idea; do something every day. You will be surprised at the results. And, if you've got a few more smarts than not-so-bright Jack, you might just make an extra million or two. ------------------------------------- About the Author... Heidi Perry, the author of this article and a successful entrepreneur, is editor of HomeBizBytes and co-founder of HomeBusinessOnline.com. Sign up for her popular newsletter at http://www.HomeBusinessOnline.com/nsl.htm =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Member Showcase =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Examine carefully - Those with email addresses included WILL TRADE LINKS with you... You are encouraged to contact them. There Are Many Ways To Build A Successful Business - Just look at these successful sites & programs other members are involved in... ------------------------------------------------- OVER 12 MILLION DOLLARS PAID OUT IN 3 MONTHS TO MEMBERS The Worlds Best CASH generating opportunity. EASY-Make $100,000 in a matter of months. Join TODAY and your dreams will come true. 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Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.dga9ej47&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 15:51:26 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:51:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and > >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). > > Most of those protesters are white Europeans. The only thing they are > protesting is their own lack of understanding. Perhaps, this is a clear demonstration of your own lack however. It's interesting (and something I've commented on before, check the archives :) that the 'leaders' of the C-A-C-L viewpoint are always ready to bitch about how 'terrible' the government is and how it degrades their profits. And then when somebody actually gets up and acts on it they're the first ones to bail. The real reason they're not sensitive to these particular 'anarchist' is that they aren't motivated by the alure of money. They aspire to a higher calling than crass commercialism or puritanical ego fulfillment. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The majority of the C-A-C-L contingent, in particular their 'leaders', are a bunch of money hungry hypocrites. God $ Fascism. Just more of the same. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From res02mg1 at gte.net Fri Jul 20 15:01:27 2001 From: res02mg1 at gte.net (David C. Dickson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:01:27 -0400 Subject: 21st Century Commerce Int'l EXPO 2001 - Training Conference - Phoenix, AZ Message-ID: <49232001752022127430@EAGLE> To: CYPHERPUNKS at TOAD.COM TRAINING CONFERENCE: 21st Century Commerce International EXPO 2001 E-Business://Building Integrated Solutions September 10-13, 2001 Phoenix Civic Plaza Phoenix, Arizona Main Program: Registration: 7:30 a.m., September 11 Program Begins: 8:30 a.m., September 11 Wrap-up: 3:30 p.m., September 13 Continental Breakfast, Refreshments and Lunches included. About the Conference: The 21st Century Commerce International EXPO 2001 will be held in Phoenix, Arizona, September 10-13, 2001. The conference was created in 1987 as a conference and trade exhibition focused on IT solutions for the government marketplace and the Department of Defense. The EXPO has expanded to encompass commercial marketplace best business practices. EXPO offers you an opportunity to hear from some of the nations top business leaders who will discuss and examine all aspects of e-business, from infrastructure to enterprise architecture, to hardware and software, to security issues. On the trade show floor, you will see successful e-business in action: from government agencies to Fortune 500 companies to small- and medium-size enterprises making a difference for tomorrow's wired world. Who should attend: * Senior Managers (government and Industry) * Chief Information Officers * Knowledge Officers * International Business Leaders * eBusiness Architects * Information Technology Officers * Program Managers * Product Data Managers * Customer Relations Managers * Technology Providers * Small-Medium-Large Enterprises * Data Conversion Managers and Providers * Application Service Providers Among those areas that will be discussed in the tracks are: * Defining Requirements for Integrated Solutions * Strategy Focused Execution * Exploiting Value Chain Management * Electronic Enterprises-Broadening Your Space * Integrated Technologies * Electronic Government Enterprise-Governing Beyond Borders Key Presentations: * Mr. Robert D. Johnson, Executive Vice President and COO, Honeywell International and President and CEO, Honeywell Aerospace * Ms. Mary J. Mitchell, Program Executive for Electronic Government Policy, General Services Administration * Mr. Jack Garrison, Director of Integrated Logistics, Lockheed Martin * LTG Daniel G. Brown, Deputy Commander in Chief, US Transportation Command * LTG Charles S. Mahan, Jr., Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics, US Army * RADM Ray Archer, Defense Logistics Agency * Ms. Ariane Whittemore, Assistant Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, (Fleet Readiness and Logistics) * Dr. Palmer Smith, Director of Government Solutions, Sabre, Inc. * Mr. John F. Phillips, Vice President of Aftermarket Growth, Honeywell * Mr. Barry Lerner, Vice President of Government Sales, Exostar, LLC * Mr. Walt Kozak, PricewaterhouseCoopers * Mr. Pat Holcomb, CommerceOne * Mr. Craig York, Honeywell International Three ways to register: * On-line at www.21cc.org * By fax at 703-522-3192 * By mail: AFEI, 2111 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 400, Arlington, VA 22201 Register prior to August 31 for Early Bird rates! AFEI Members: $750 Government Employees: $825 Non-Member: $900 Tutorials: $100 (September 10) GSA (MOBIS/LOGWORLD Training): $75 (September 10) Tutorials Sessions Include: * Introduction to Supply Chain Management including practical steps in planning for implementation * How to conduct auctions on the Internet. Reverse auctions - how they work - how DoD is using reverse auctions to save money * Strategy Focused Execution including an introduction to Enterprise Resource Planning (ERP) and Customer Relationship Management (CRM) * XML with examples of the practical application of XML within Industry and Government * Introduction to Enterprise Application Integration (EAI) * Configuration Management (The transition to an Industry-wide standard) We are pleased to announce that GSA will be holding a LOGWORLD/ MOBIS training session during the EXPO this year. This year the General Services Administration's (GSA) procurement innovations will be presented at the 21st Century Commerce International EXPO 2001 on September 10. GSA will provide training at EXPO 2001 for contractors and Federal agencies interested in the Logistics Worldwide (LOGWORLD) and Management, Organizational and Business Improvement Services (MOBIS) schedule contracts. LOGWORLD enables Federal agencies to procure comprehensive logistics solutions to enhance or replace existing operations and capabilities. Examples of the type of services provided under this schedule include Supply and Value Chain Management; Acquisition Logistics; Distribution and Transportation Logistics; Deployment Logistics; Logistics training services, support products and new services. MOBIS provides Federal agencies with a tool to seek expert advice for improving management and organizational effectiveness. Examples of the type of services provided under the MOBIS schedule are consulting services; facilitation services; survey services; Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) services; A76 study support; project management services; training services and support products. www.northwest.gsa.gov/fss/msc Executive Roundtable: This years Executive Roundtable (ERT) theme is Returns on Business Investments in the New Reality. The ERT is a special session for senior management (CEO, COO, CIO, CTO, Sr. Vice Presidents, Presidents, Executive Directors) and is offered by invitation only. If you would like to request an invitation, please contact Michelle Bourke at mbourke at afei.org. Exhibit: Booth space will be reserved on a first-come, first-served basis. Reserve your preferred location as soon as possible. The floorplan has been configured to maximize traffic throughout the display area, and the program schedule will be designed to encourage attendee participation. For more information on available booth space and prices, go to http://www.21cc.org/01exhibits.htm. We have already sold 50% of our booth spaces! Sign up soon! Conference Sponsors: * EXOSTAR * Sprint E Solutions * CSC * Phoenix Business Journal * Government Computer News * National Defense Industrial Association * National Defense Magazine * Thomas Group * BidSource * The Greater Phoenix Chamber of Commerce To view sponsorship opportunities, please visit the website at www.21cc.org Contact: Michelle Beckner Bourke, EXPO Conference Manager, at (703) 247-9473, mbourke at afei.org; If you wish to be REMOVED from this list, please REPLY by placing REMOVE in the subject line. Thank you From rabbi at quickie.net Fri Jul 20 18:39:32 2001 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rallies on Monday Message-ID: http://www.boycottadobe.com/pages/rallies.html is now the home for the rally announcements. If you're planning on attending one, please visit this page for info. If you're holding one, please let us know so we can add it to the page. Thanks! -- Len Sassaman Security Architect | Technology Consultant | "Let be be finale of seem." | http://sion.quickie.net | --Wallace Stevens From rabbi at quickie.net Fri Jul 20 18:39:32 2001 From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rallies on Monday Message-ID: http://www.boycottadobe.com/pages/rallies.html is now the home for the rally announcements. If you're planning on attending one, please visit this page for info. If you're holding one, please let us know so we can add it to the page. Thanks! -- Len Sassaman Security Architect | Technology Consultant | "Let be be finale of seem." | http://sion.quickie.net | --Wallace Stevens From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Jul 20 18:49:06 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:49:06 -0700 Subject: Rallies on Monday References: Message-ID: <00fc01c11187$543e7100$d2972040@thinkpad574> Note: Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very paranoid. Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to taunting. (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Len Sassaman" To: ; ; ; Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:39 PM Subject: Rallies on Monday > http://www.boycottadobe.com/pages/rallies.html > > is now the home for the rally announcements. If you're planning on > attending one, please visit this page for info. If you're holding one, > please let us know so we can add it to the page. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Len Sassaman > > Security Architect | > Technology Consultant | "Let be be finale of seem." > | > http://sion.quickie.net | --Wallace Stevens > From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Jul 20 18:52:18 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Geek Profiling Upheld by Appeals Court Message-ID: <200107210152.f6L1qIG07568@artifact.psychedelic.net> The 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals has just upheld the right of schools to suspend or expel any student who speaks or writes about fictional violence, dresses differently, has a "disturbing" background, or "fits the profile" of a "homicidal student." The 9th circuit is supposed to be the liberal one, right? ----- SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A Washington state school district acted appropriately when it suspended a student for submitting a poem about a fictitious campus mass murder, a federal appeals court ruled Friday. The decision from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a lower court's ruling that the high school was wrong to suspend James LaVine, a 16-year-old junior, for 17 school days in 1998. LaVine submitted his poem, ''Last Words,'' to be critiqued by his English instructor at his school about 100 miles north of Seattle. Among the violent imagery was the phrase, ''I drew my gun and . . . Bang, Bang, Bang-Bang. When it was all over, 28 were, dead.'' In ordering the suspension, the school district had said LaVine had a ''disturbing'' background, dressed differently and ''fit the profile'' of a homicidal student. The student's attorney, Breean Beggs, said the court's decision could chill students' First Amendment right to free speech and give educators leverage to punish students for their ideas. ''I was hoping to have it made clear that students cannot be punished for the content of their work,'' Beggs said. The appeals panel said while the poem viewed by itself is protected speech, the school district had a right to suspend LaVine on fears he may have carried out what he had written. ''Parents and the public expect schools to protect their children and that is getting more and more difficult in modern times,'' said Tyna Ek, the lawyer for school district. ''This says that schools can act when there are danger signals.'' The circuit panel noted that, in hindsight, it may not have been necessary to expel the student -- given that it was later determined he had no violent intentions. Still, the court said, schools need to react to the potential for such violence. LaVine, who is now 19 and graduated last year, said he didn't know why he wrote the poem. ''When I write, I just get a feeling. Whatever comes out, comes out,'' LaVine said. ''There's not really any reason behind why I wrote it.'' -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 20 22:22:28 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:22:28 -1000 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010720191912.00c103b0@flex.com> At 02:23 PM 7/20/01, dumbGeEk wrote: > > >Just wondering (because maybe you don't live in the US). But why are you >all gonna protest because some Russian got arrested for breaking the law?? Try not to think of it as a Russian breaking the law. Try to think of it as a person on US soil breaking an unconstitutional law. Take two clue pills and try again tomorrow. 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Martin To be removed, just type " REMOVE " in the subject, and click REPLY From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 20 22:42:05 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:42:05 -1000 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010720192611.00bfa1b0@flex.com> At 02:23 PM 7/20/01, dumbGeEk wrote: >into blowing open the Gary Condit fuck up... ) > >I mean this ass hole fucked some Intern and then killed her... Your proof that he killed her? You've shared it with the D.C. police I take it? Condit is in custody now? Or should we downgrade this fantastically strong assertion to just your wild assed guess, and send the nice young men in clean white coats after you, to check you out? >maybe I'm a >little crazy here (which I have been told oftern that I am) but that seems >a hell of a lot more important then some fucking Commie. Anyone who cannot distinguish between Russian citizens who were victims under communism and Communists deserves to be treated like a Communist. You need more than two clue pills. >Just my 2 cents (after about 12 beers...) A little crazy? No. A lot drunk. Take two aspirin with the handful of clue pills, you'll need them. Oh, this is the last time I'm going to leave your To: and Cc: includes intact. If you don't have the style, grace or courtesy to send separate emails to different lists, you deserve the hangover you should wake up with and 10,000 more all at once too. Fuckhead. Reese From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 20 23:01:40 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:01:40 -1000 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010720192611.00bfa1b0@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010720195153.00e29ea0@flex.com> At 04:49 PM 7/20/01, GeEk wrote: > >Reese, GeEK, >I know there are things about the U.S govt that you can't or aren't >willing to understand. You have no clue what I know or suspect. >And if you really have such a small Brain that you >can't see Condit is part of the murder Murder? A crime. Again, you have some proof? You've shared it with the D.C. police? With any police? >then I really have nothing more to say to you.. It doesn't seem that you have much to say, just sling some accusations about and call it a day, eh? >once day you will learn more about the Media their filters, Try again? Make sense this time? >politics and Money... untill then continue to flame people for your >ignorance..... > >I won't respond to any more of you're flames.. I know the truth and if you >really belelive that "me" calling into the D.C police or anyone for that >matter is really going to mean anything you might want to reevaluate >your understanding of how the "System" works... it is't as it seems not >even close.. I lied, includes included. What you don't understand, we have a system in this country. Innocent until proven guilty. Sure Condit is guilty, he's a politician, right? But what is he guilty of? Where is the proof of that guilt? Go sleep it off. Reese From johnross-investigator at citlink.net Fri Jul 20 17:05:05 2001 From: johnross-investigator at citlink.net (John Ross) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:05:05 -0400 Subject: VAS pension Message-ID: <000001c11178$e51cc460$64e4d7aa@h48p6> I get $475 per month VA pension........What are the terms..... Thank You none -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gil at ateliermobile.de Fri Jul 20 11:15:52 2001 From: gil at ateliermobile.de (Gil Tucker [ateliermobile]) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:15:52 +0200 Subject: remove Message-ID: <000001c11152$8fd25040$6600a8c0@privat> remove From gil at ateliermobile.de Fri Jul 20 11:16:34 2001 From: gil at ateliermobile.de (Gil Tucker [ateliermobile]) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:16:34 +0200 Subject: remove Message-ID: <000101c11152$90b5ab60$6600a8c0@privat> remove From koolman at visi0n.net Fri Jul 20 17:23:10 2001 From: koolman at visi0n.net (GeEk) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just wondering (because maybe you don't live in the US). But why are you all gonna protest because some Russian got arrested for breaking the law?? Don't you have anything better to do with you're time??? (this isn't a flame but if that's how you want to take it be my guest, just wondering why we are soo concerned about some russian.. the principle?? If you want to protest something why not put you're effort into blowing open the Gary Condit fuck up... ) I mean this ass hole fucked some Intern and then killed her... maybe I'm a little crazy here (which I have been told oftern that I am) but that seems a hell of a lot more important then some fucking Commie. Just my 2 cents (after about 12 beers...) -- LinSys http://www.visi0n.net Unix / Security Online Info ----- When you die and your life flashes before your eyes does that include the part where your life flashes before your eyes? ----- On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Len Sassaman wrote: > > http://www.boycottadobe.com/pages/rallies.html > > is now the home for the rally announcements. If you're planning on > attending one, please visit this page for info. If you're holding one, > please let us know so we can add it to the page. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Len Sassaman > > Security Architect | > Technology Consultant | "Let be be finale of seem." > | > http://sion.quickie.net | --Wallace Stevens > > > > > > > > > > From fqgroup at attglobal.net Fri Jul 20 20:24:36 2001 From: fqgroup at attglobal.net (The Financial-Quest Group) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:24:36 -0700 Subject: JOIN AN INVESTMENT CLUB Message-ID: <200107210240.TAA09273@ecotone.toad.com> *** INVESTMENT CLUBS CAN BE FUN, EDUCATIONAL AND FINANCIALLY REWARDING. WHEN YOU INVEST WITH A GROUP, YOU'LL ALSO REDUCE THE RISK OF INVESTING ALONE. *** Be a member of an investment club that also invests in small businesses. An investment club is a small group of people who want to be better educated about investing their money; and they want to invest in businesses that can increase the value of their investment. Members agree to an affordable monthly investment ($10-$50) and share the responsibilities of researching investment opportunities. Through our e-mail course (Starting An Investment Club) you'll improve your understanding of investing and learn how to organize or join an investment club. You'll also learn about the benefits of our certification process and how to invest in small businesses. We'll deliver (5) e-mail lessons to you over five weeks and you complete them when it fits your schedule. THERE ARE NO TESTS! Lesson #1 is delivered FREE and you decide whether to complete the course by paying the affordable enrollment fee ($19.95). You can pay by check or credit card. We think this is important stuff, so we're doing what we can to assure maximum participation. ********** Get the KIDS started early! Enroll them, too. It's an ideal parents-children project. Children may even be active members of investment clubs. ********** Visit our website http://www.fqgroup.com and learn about The Financial-Quest Group. Complete a PROFILE if you're interested in our e-mail course. Click INVESTORS and submit at least Contact Information under ORGANIZE OR JOIN AN INVESTMENT CLUB. ********** If you'd like to be removed from our mailing list, please use your REPLY function and enter "REMOVE" in the subject line. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 18:29:01 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:29:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <7519a9519b116d17505b4b481f83ca77@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Speaking for myself, I'm not "owned" by anyone. I obey state and federal > laws though, if that's what you mean. Even when they're unconstitutional I bet... Some American. > You don't need a gun to enforce > ownership, what do you think contract and property law is all about. Which is worthless without the explicit and well advertised threat of violence. See G8 demonstrations today for a explicit example. > Sometimes words or a fist do just as well... What any of this has to do > with supporting the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is totally unclear. See G8 today. > By the way, why don't you think people have a right to defend their own > lives and property? Don't the people demonstrating have a right to defend their lives and properoty? Their claim is it is being abused and destroyed. Where is their spokesperson at the G8? Where is there forum? > When I'm attacked, why shouldn't I fight back? Hypocrite. Freedom for me, not for thee... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 18:43:43 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:43:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists (fwd) Message-ID: I assume from the tone that Msr. Sandfort meant to send it to the list... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:53:52 -0700 From: Sandy Sandfort To: Jim Choate Subject: RE: Killing the G8 Anarchists Inchoate sputtered: > ...The real reason they're not > sensitive to these particular > 'anarchist' is that they aren't > motivated by the alure of money. > They aspire to a higher calling > than crass commercialism or > puritanical ego fulfillment... Oh boy! If Jim REALLY believes this crap (where does he get this stuff?), I have some great seaside property in Florida, I think he should invest in. ;-D "Save the whales." (We'll eat them later.) S a n d y From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 20 17:46:59 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:46:59 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444AF@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found prince and the pauper.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: prince and the pauper", was sent from Jeff and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Jul 20 17:47:24 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists Message-ID: <7519a9519b116d17505b4b481f83ca77@freemail.cotse.com> Someone behind a remailer wrote: >You stupid american fuck, So it's an insult to be American, is it? Who's being bigoted now. If you really have something interesting to contribute, why not bypass the namecalling and stick to the issues. > ownership is very relative term and enforced by guns, like you are owned >by state of california and USG at the same time, and you do complain about >that, don't you? Huh? Speaking for myself, I'm not "owned" by anyone. I obey state and federal laws though, if that's what you mean. You don't need a gun to enforce ownership, what do you think contract and property law is all about. Sometimes words or a fist do just as well... What any of this has to do with supporting the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is totally unclear. By the way, why don't you think people have a right to defend their own lives and property? When I'm attacked, why shouldn't I fight back? A nation state that adopted a foreign policy based on "turning the other cheek" wouldn't last a month. So why should I as an individual citizen? Nobody said you have to relish the idea of mowing people down to believe in the principle of defending yourself. In fact, I don't think it's going too far to say that if you don't take reasonable measures to provide for your own safety, you're a contemptible fool and a coward. What would you do in a situation where no one from the state is around to help you? Run? Pray? Roll over and die? If you can't or won't defend yourself, those are about the only options you'll have. In my case, I'm lucky enough to be able to decide that "providing for my own safety" doesn't involve owning a gun at all. But who am I to make that decision for anyone else? Who are you? >You really whine only because you are not on top - Define "on top". No matter where you are intellectually or financially, the botttom line is that you deserve to defend yourself when people are trying to harm you. >you do not really have problem with those below you (I understand you live >on a farm .. must have some pigs there) suffering because they don't have >guns. Define "below". Let's see, who's "below" me, criminals? I think criminals realize better than most the advantages of superior firepower. So why not wake up, take the hint, and quit living like a lamb waiting for the slaughter. But go ahead, it's entirely your choice. ~Faustine. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 18:55:07 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:55:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Inferno: Fw: [free-sklyarov] bay area sign-making party on Sunday (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:47:37 -0400 From: Any Mouse Subject: Inferno: Fw: [free-sklyarov] bay area sign-making party on Sunday ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Fabrikant" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 8:36 PM Subject: [free-sklyarov] bay area sign-making party on Sunday > Some Berkeley people will be gathering on Sunday at about 4pm to make > signs, and "miscellaneous props", for the Monday protest in San Jose. > Anyone in the area is welcome to join us. The location is in the Wozniak > Lounge of Soda Hall on the UC Berkeley Campus. > > Bring your own materials, tools, and cool ideas (and certainly feel free > to bring extra stuff). We plan on being there until about 8pm. > > Directions to Soda Hall can be found at > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Campus/Directions/#soda. It's a big ugly > greenish building at the intersection of Hearst and Le Roy. You'll need to > approach the building from the Le Roy Ave side, and enter from the back > (from the patio above the volleyball court). > > Please drop me an email if you're planning on attending, just so I know > how many people to expect. > > This event is officially under the aegis of the Berkeley CSUA (Computer > Science Undergraduate Association). > > -- > Alex Fabrikant > alexf at {csua,hkn}.berkeley.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov at zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 20 18:16:47 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Killing the 8 Swiss Anarchists Message-ID: <200107210116.VAA06975@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Ghoat wrote: # One of the points that Tim is missing is that these demonstraters # are only protecting their property, in their view. In which case Bush just poked them in the eye, with the response to the demonstrators that they are hurting the very poor they claim to represent. He's as anti-green as you get. I wouldn't be surprised if there's an assassination attempt sometime. I'll be it'll happen on August... Oh, sorry, there are Feds listening with no sense of humor. ---- >Sandman wrote: ># ># The part I like is that the wording suggests that the writer ># is surprises that a population can have a lot of guns and "yet ># maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate." Duh. George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >A different society. > >It wouldn't work here. Bear wrote: # People are surprising. Even the most idiotic can show a grain # of common sense once they realize that their accustomed prey is # carrying. I'd bet that, after an initial few killings, an # amazingly polite and civil society would develop. No. A heat wave would be like a deadly jiffy-pop affair here. I'm sure Tim would envision that as a cool thing. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 19:18:26 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:18:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010720212533.02d4b660@frissell@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote: > At 04:56 PM 7/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and > >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). > > Presumably "their cultures" and "their planet" are the "property" they are > defending according to your prior post. I thought they didn't really > believe in property? Yes, property they have an interest in. An interest that is not measurable in economic metrics. Who didn't believe in property? Which group didn't believe in property. As a journalist who is supposedly well versed in this area it's surprising that you would try to attempt to show the many groups involved as having a single agenda or theme, when you know that isn't so. Some don't believe in a world government. Some don't believe in trans-national economics becoming the primary force in government. Some object to a combining of the two. Some object to the crass commercialism that has ravaged Afria with AIDS. Some object to the belief that pledging a $1B to 'fight AIDS' isn't sufficient when what is needed and what is required (though they don't want to do it) is to 'end AIDS', without turning the people into chatels of the state in some eco-socialist wet dream. No, there are many views and you're trying to lump them all into one category is nothing more than evidence to the strength (really complete lack thereof) of your case. > In any case, culture is something that exists in the minds of people and in > the choices those people make every day. Provided they're given the opportunity to even make that choice. This is another of the bitches. > One can only claim to "own" a culture if one claims to own the minds and > choices of others. One does not claim to own a culture (demonstrating your lack thereof), one IS a culture. To have a culture destroyed, especially for nothing more than profit, is rape. > A bit totalitarian and impossible for commie thugs to do these days since > even governments with nukes are having trouble controlling the minds and > choices of others. It's not just 'commie', again your single mindset reveals your shallow understanding. The lack of 'control' is exactly why they're so upset. Why they're so worried. It's exactly why they don't want it to get larger. It's why they don't want people to know what's going on. These are the same people, who when they want to search your home, who ask "what have you got to hide?" What have they got to hide? > As for the planet, a bit big to be owned at this point though people will > be able to own them later when we're richer and have access to more of > them. Though why one would want to own a gravity well is beyond me. You have a shallow sense of ownership if you believe it must be 1-to-1. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From frissell at panix.com Fri Jul 20 18:32:41 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:32:41 -0400 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010720212533.02d4b660@frissell@brillig.panix.com> At 04:56 PM 7/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). Presumably "their cultures" and "their planet" are the "property" they are defending according to your prior post. I thought they didn't really believe in property? In any case, culture is something that exists in the minds of people and in the choices those people make every day. One can only claim to "own" a culture if one claims to own the minds and choices of others. A bit totalitarian and impossible for commie thugs to do these days since even governments with nukes are having trouble controlling the minds and choices of others. As for the planet, a bit big to be owned at this point though people will be able to own them later when we're richer and have access to more of them. Though why one would want to own a gravity well is beyond me. DCF --- Statism, gravity, and death -- Mankind's three greatest enemies. From frissell at panix.com Fri Jul 20 18:32:41 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:32:41 -0400 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010720212533.02d4b660@frissell@brillig.panix.c om> At 04:56 PM 7/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). Presumably "their cultures" and "their planet" are the "property" they are defending according to your prior post. I thought they didn't really believe in property? In any case, culture is something that exists in the minds of people and in the choices those people make every day. One can only claim to "own" a culture if one claims to own the minds and choices of others. A bit totalitarian and impossible for commie thugs to do these days since even governments with nukes are having trouble controlling the minds and choices of others. As for the planet, a bit big to be owned at this point though people will be able to own them later when we're richer and have access to more of them. Though why one would want to own a gravity well is beyond me. DCF --- Statism, gravity, and death -- Mankind's three greatest enemies. From sethf at sethf.com Fri Jul 20 18:43:52 2001 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Story of the "8" in Jennifer 8. Lee Message-ID: http://www.girlhacker.com/2001_01_01_archive.html#1991206 Has the NY Times developed a quirky sense of humor? Or is the author of this article really named Jennifer 8. Lee? The article is about the demand for phone numbers with lucky digits in China. A man paid $2,500 for 8889988 at a charity auction. Cell phone stores advertise their best numbers. Discounted numbers (ending with unlucky 4s) are sold below cost. But there are customers who refuse to pay more for lucky numbers. At any rate, Jennifer 8. Lee is looking for prosperity in her byline, and it seems The Old Grey Lady is happy to play along. It's not so grey anymore anyway with the color photos that still take me by surprise. (Update: Turns out Jennifer just has very cool parents! They wanted to give her a unique name, Jennifer Lee being very popular. So 8. it was. I had done a search in the NY Times archives for "Jennifer Lee" when I wrote the post to see if she usually used the 8, but the search engine was too smart and didn't return any "Jennifer 8. Lee"s, just "Jennifer Lee" in a few places. But I should have searched for "Jennifer 8. Lee" to begin with. Actually I should have remembered I've read plenty of her 8. bylined articles already. Thanks for the info, Seth Gordon!) a http://members.aol.com/ogit1/eight.html NATE PARSONS, ANNAPOLIS, MD Some people have ask what is the deal with the Washinton Post's Metro reporter Jennifer 8 Lee. Well here it is... Jennifer's parents are from China, where there about 200 million people have the last name "Lee." To impart a sense of individuality they gave her the middle name "8," which has special meaning to the Chinese. It means luck, good fortune, security and strength. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 20 15:00:48 2001 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 20 Jul 2001 22:00:48 -0000 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists Message-ID: <20010720220048.19533.qmail@nym.alias.net> >WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY? > >Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire? Your bigotry got some boost this morning (cypherpunk readers may be amused to know what nazi methods you advocate for homeless). You stupid american fuck, ownership is very relative term and enforced by guns, like you are owned by state of california and USG at the same time, and you do complain about that, don't you ? You really whine only because you are not on top - you do not really have problem with those below you (I understand you live on a farm .. must have some pigs there) suffering because they don't have guns. From sethf at sethf.com Fri Jul 20 19:04:21 2001 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime Message-ID: Remember what I told you: "If you think Clinton was dismal, you're going to find out what dismal *is*, during a Bush administration." [And Matt's reply is: They're both dismal.] http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010720/pl/ashcroft_cybercrime_1.html Friday July 20 5:24 PM ET Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime By BRIAN BERGSTEIN, Associated Press Writer MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (AP) - Calling computer security one of the nation's top problems, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Friday that the government is forming nine special units to prosecute hacking and copyright violations. Ashcroft said the new specialists will bring to 48 the number of prosecutors working on cybercrime in U.S. attorneys' offices. ``There are many people of poor and evil motivations who are seeking to disrupt business and government and exploit any vulnerabilities in the digital universe,'' Ashcroft said after meeting with Silicon Valley executives and venture capitalists. When computer crimes go unpunished, he said, ``It impairs the ability of the United States of America to remain in its position of priority in leading the world in the digital age.'' The new prosecutors will work in cities with relatively high levels of cybercrime: Los Angeles, San Diego, Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Seattle, New York, Brooklyn, N.Y., and Alexandria, Va. The units will be modeled on the nation's first Computer Hacking and Intellectual Property squad, which began working out of the U.S. Attorney's office in San Francisco several years ago. That unit was created by U.S. Attorney Robert Mueller, whom President Bush has nominated for FBI director. Mueller attended Friday's news conference at the headquarters of VeriSign Inc., but did not comment. Ashcroft cited a study by PriceWaterhouseCoopers LLC that said businesses spent $300 billion fighting hackers and computer viruses last year. He said the government must be careful to help secure the Internet without hindering its development. ``There is perhaps nothing quite as distressing as the unintended consequences of well-intentioned government,'' Ashcroft said. While cybercrime is an expensive problem for the private sector, companies are often reluctant to report computer attacks to law enforcement authorities out of fear of negative publicity and concern that prosecutors don't have the technical savvy to solve the cases. Prosecutors in the nine units will try to forge relationships within the technology community, provide training for state and local prosecutors and encourage companies to come forward when they are hit by hackers, Justice Department officials said. Ashcroft would not comment on the case of Dmitry Sklyarov, a 26-year-old Russian arrested this week in Las Vegas and charged with writing a program that unlocked encrypted software designed by Adobe Systems Inc. (NasdaqNM:ADBE - news) to protect electronic books. The FBI contends that is a violation of the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Critics of the case say Sklyarov works for a legitimate company in Moscow that merely has a business dispute with Adobe. ``Taxpayer dollars are basically being used to do Adobe's dirty work,'' said Richard Smith, chief technology officer for the Privacy Foundation at the University of Denver. ``Frankly, I think they should be spending their time fixing the security problems he pointed out.'' - On the Net: Justice Department: http://www.usdoj.gov Copyright 嚙 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. __________________________________________________________________________ Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. --- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From freematt at coil.com Fri Jul 20 19:06:59 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:06:59 -0400 Subject: The Story of the "8" in Jennifer 8. Lee Message-ID: [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Several people asked me why New York Times reporter Jennifer 8. Lee had an "8" as her middle initial when I sent her story on Seth Finkelstein at: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html. I didn't know so I asked Seth and here is the answer.] From freematt at coil.com Fri Jul 20 19:18:25 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:18:25 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime Message-ID: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 20:39:06 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:39:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, GeEk wrote: > Just wondering (because maybe you don't live in the US). But why are you > all gonna protest because some Russian got arrested for breaking the law?? An unconstitutional law. A law which limits freedom in a country which is ultimately governed by "Congress shall make no law..." If you can't catch that clue, there is no hope. > Don't you have anything better to do with you're time??? It isn't 'my time' in the above situation, I've gotta go ask my master before I can answer your question. It is however a nicely gilded cage. > (this isn't a flame but if that's how you want to take it be my guest, > just wondering why we are soo concerned about some russian.. the > principle?? If you want to protest something why not put you're effort > into blowing open the Gary Condit fuck up... ) No accounting for taste. > I mean this ass hole fucked some Intern and then killed her... maybe I'm a > little crazy here (which I have been told oftern that I am) but that seems > a hell of a lot more important then some fucking Commie. If you got proof, run with it...nobody else seems to have any proof. > Just my 2 cents (after about 12 beers...) ;) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 20:46:23 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:46:23 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - G8 leaders in no-win situation - July 20, 2001 Message-ID: <3B58FB0F.B3D150AB@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/20/genoa.statement/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 20 20:49:11 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:49:11 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Dimitry's company sold password crackers to the FBI Message-ID: <3B58FBB7.9DC67A06@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/21/039257.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From koolman at visi0n.net Fri Jul 20 19:49:55 2001 From: koolman at visi0n.net (GeEk) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010720192611.00bfa1b0@flex.com> Message-ID: Reese, I know there are things about the U.S govt that you can't or aren't willing to understand. And if you really have such a small Brain that you can't see Condit is part of the murder then I really have nothing more to say to you.. once day you will learn more about the Media their filters, politics and Money... untill then continue to flame people for your ignorance..... I won't respond to any more of you're flames.. I know the truth and if you really belelive that "me" calling into the D.C police or anyone for that matter is really going to mean anything you might want to reevaluate your understanding of how the "System" works... it is't as it seems not even close.. -- LinSys http://www.visi0n.net Unix / Security Online Info ----- When you die and your life flashes before your eyes does that include the part where your life flashes before your eyes? ----- On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > At 02:23 PM 7/20/01, dumbGeEk wrote: > > >into blowing open the Gary Condit fuck up... ) > > > >I mean this ass hole fucked some Intern and then killed her... > > Your proof that he killed her? You've shared it with the D.C. police > I take it? Condit is in custody now? Or should we downgrade this > fantastically strong assertion to just your wild assed guess, and send > the nice young men in clean white coats after you, to check you out? > > >maybe I'm a > >little crazy here (which I have been told oftern that I am) but that seems > >a hell of a lot more important then some fucking Commie. > > Anyone who cannot distinguish between Russian citizens who were victims > under communism and Communists deserves to be treated like a Communist. > You need more than two clue pills. > > >Just my 2 cents (after about 12 beers...) > > A little crazy? No. A lot drunk. Take two aspirin with the handful of > clue pills, you'll need them. > > Oh, this is the last time I'm going to leave your To: and Cc: includes > intact. If you don't have the style, grace or courtesy to send separate > emails to different lists, you deserve the hangover you should wake up > with and 10,000 more all at once too. Fuckhead. > > Reese > From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Jul 20 20:17:27 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 23:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Chandra Levy's Hard Disk Message-ID: <200107210317.XAA18752@www3.aa.psiweb.com> The DC police have apparently released the *generic* URLs of where she visited during a three hour tour of cyberspace. A three hour tour. ( couldn't help myself ;-) They apparently said "Lycos.com" etc, without releasing the search criteria (the rest of the URL). What gives? How is the base name of a search engine going to be of use to anyone? This could be called, "Clue-less." From bounty.org at bounty.org Sat Jul 21 00:07:16 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:07:16 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:18 PM -0400 7/20/01, Matthew Gaylor wrote: >Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:04:21 -0400 (EDT) >From: Seth Finkelstein >To: freematt at coil.com >Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime > > Remember what I told you: "If you think Clinton was dismal, >you're going to find out what dismal *is*, during a Bush administration." > >[And Matt's reply is: They're both dismal.] > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010720/pl/ashcroft_cybercrime_1.html > > Friday July 20 5:24 PM ET > >Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime > > By BRIAN BERGSTEIN, Associated Press Writer > > MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (AP) - Calling computer security one of the > nation's top problems, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Friday that > the government is forming nine special units to prosecute hacking and > copyright violations. > > Ashcroft said the new specialists will bring to 48 the number of > prosecutors working on cybercrime in U.S. attorneys' offices. Gee, imagine that, the Attorney General wanting to enforce crimes. What *is* this world coming to? We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect the LEAs to enforce all laws that are on the books. If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the legislature and the Executive branch. From bounty.org at bounty.org Sat Jul 21 00:10:23 2001 From: bounty.org at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:10:23 -0700 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:23 PM -0400 7/20/01, GeEk wrote: >Just wondering (because maybe you don't live in the US). But why are you >all gonna protest because some Russian got arrested for breaking the law?? >\ Probably because he got arrested on American Soil, by American Cops for breaking an American law while living and working in Russia. It also happens to be a law that many disagree with. Clear things up for you? (note, trimmed the CC line) From schear at lvcm.com Sat Jul 21 00:13:14 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:13:14 -0700 Subject: Focus On What's Important in the Sklyarov Case Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010721001032.040fa698@pop3.lvcm.com> Focus On What's Important in the Sklyarov Case If you want to get Sklyarov out of jail, you need to focus on how the FBI has handled the case and not on the merits of the DMCA or what Sklyarov allegedly did. http://securitygeeks.shmoo.com/article.php?story=20010719141720141 From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 00:14:52 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010720212533.02d4b660@frissell@brillig.panix.c om> Message-ID: <20010721071452.95550.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> --- Duncan Frissell wrote: > defending according to your prior post. I thought they didn't really > believe in property? You are a ... "journalist" ??? Where, pray tell, did you divine that G8 protesters "don't believe in property" ? Or did you feel in your little brain that it's just the right thing to say ? > In any case, culture is something that exists in the minds of people and in > the choices those people make every day. One can only claim to "own" a This is nonsense. *All concepts* exist in minds of people, you don't mine for ethics or culture or modular algebra. > As for the planet, a bit big to be owned at this point though people will > be able to own them later when we're richer and have access to more of > them. Though why one would want to own a gravity well is beyond me. This is sooooo deep. Did you ever had anything but wrong generalisations to say ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From grifter4u at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 00:27:27 2001 From: grifter4u at yahoo.com (Grifter Guy) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Indian Cats - was: "Read this..." Message-ID: <20010721072727.7046.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> On 20 Jul 2001, at 13:46, Frog2 wrote: > You are right of course, about the superiority of India. I recognize > India's greatness in the cause of world water conservation as well, > particularly the sacrifices Indians have made in the area of personal > hygiene by showering only once every 15 days- all for the cause of > world thirst! As such I am moved- near tears- to support your efforts. > Hey, by the way, did you know that the British call bathrooms "the loo" > ? I think Lulu's of the world need to unite and stop this kind of > intentional slander! I know you Indians, who can't stand the > colonialist scum who tried to build some kind of modern infrastructure > in your country at their own expense and spoiled the natural state of > the population in the process, will want to do anything you can to > stick it to the Brits. How can we let this stand? While I can't help but agree with the idea that the people of India are being a touch sensitive in that the President has named his cat India, probably at the suggestion of one of his children who thought the name implied something exotic, I find your opinions somewhat racist and a statement of your limited knowledge of history. Do you know that the people of Northern India are defined as Arayans? They are Caucasians with dark skin. India today is considered a Hindu country but yet most of what you associate of India relates to the Moghuls who were Muslims. Like the good Muslims of today's Afghanistan the Muslims of India's yesteryear destroyed most of the Hindu monuments because of the images represented. An exception is the pornagraphic monuments of Khajuraho in Madhya Pradesh which is in the middle of a desert and the Moghuls never found them. The destruction of Hindu monuments was so complete in India that if you want historial examples you must look to Shwedagon temple in Rangoon Burma or Prambanan on the island of Java in Indonesia. For contemporary examples Singapore and Malaysia have some very good examples built by more current expatriates. My favorite was the Shwedagon temple plus other examples in Burma with the comptemporary examples in Malaysia and Singapore being very interesting. Much more interesting than any Christian church or any of the great cathedrals of Eurpore. When the British first arrived in India they were nothing more than a bunch of imperialistic thugs with superior weapons technology who manipulated and bullied their way into a dominant position. India had a civilization and the British influence was probably more of a downgrade than an upgrade which the writers of history have done their best to mask. Your references to the water conservation traits of Indian society don't jive with my experience of their country. I stayed in the same accommendations as the locals and some sort of private shower type facilities were available everywhere. While there is definitely a shortage of public toilet facilities which makes it seem relatively uncivilized by western standards I didn't find it a lot different than the pissing booths in Amsterdam. At least in India I could always duck behind a banana tree and it was better than the pissing wall in the Philippines. As to body odour I always northern climates where people bathed less often were more offensive than the tropics where people tended to bath daily, or more often, as part of the cooling down routine. I guess you were attempting to take some sort of cheap shot but your comments don't jive with reality. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From bob at black.org Sat Jul 21 02:50:58 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 02:50:58 -0700 Subject: excuse me, you're on my planet Message-ID: <3B595081.2749CF42@black.org> At 04:56 PM 7/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). > "their planet" ... thanks for the chuckle, Jim. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 21 02:59:09 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 02:59:09 -0700 Subject: What the Swiss have In-Reply-To: References: <200107202010.QAA02986@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010721025909.00853550@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:19 PM 7/20/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >People are surprising. Even the most idiotic can show a grain >of common sense once they realize that their accustomed prey is >carrying. I'd bet that, after an initial few killings, an >amazingly polite and civil society would develop. > > Bear Think of gun ownership as innoculation. Highly-vaccinated populations are not as succeptible to plagues as unvaccinated populations. There is a slight risk in getting innoculated, but (because of decreased populatiton permeability) there is also a network ('fax') effect where the more innoculated, the better for all (even the unvaccinated). Gun:Criminal::Vaccine:Pathogen From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Jul 21 03:10:20 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 03:10:20 -0700 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday References: <200107210839.f6L8dPg07825@moerbeke> Message-ID: <001101c111cd$59608470$d2972040@thinkpad574> > On 20 Jul, Black Unicorn wrote: > > Note: > > > > Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very > > paranoid. > > > > Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to > > taunting. > > > > (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). > > This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise > sorry. Unfortunately it's not. From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Jul 21 01:25:50 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime Message-ID: <200107210825.EAA05955@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Seth Finkelstein Nostradamused: > > Remember what I told you: "If you think Clinton was dismal, >you're going to find out what dismal *is*, during a Bush administration." By BRIAN BERGSTEIN, Associated Press Writer > > MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (AP) - Calling computer security one of the > nation's top problems, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Friday that > the government is forming nine special units to prosecute hacking and > copyright violations. Petrol fumed: # # Gee, imagine that, the Attorney General wanting to enforce crimes. # # What *is* this world coming to? Dude, the Feds just arrested someone for "copyright violations" when no complaint had been made. Think about this latest manifestation of General Ashcroft's righteous penis. ---- And if he thinks the government isn't keeping gun check records beyond any amount of time, he's fooling himself. He should study the history of the NSA. From proclus at iname.com Sat Jul 21 01:39:22 2001 From: proclus at iname.com (proclus at iname.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <00fc01c11187$543e7100$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <200107210839.f6L8dPg07825@moerbeke> On 20 Jul, Black Unicorn wrote: > Note: > > Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very > paranoid. > > Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to > taunting. > > (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise sorry. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Len Sassaman" > To: ; ; > ; > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:39 PM > Subject: Rallies on Monday > > >> http://www.boycottadobe.com/pages/rallies.html >> >> is now the home for the rally announcements. If you're planning on >> attending one, please visit this page for info. If you're holding one, >> please let us know so we can add it to the page. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> Len Sassaman >> >> Security Architect | >> Technology Consultant | "Let be be finale of seem." >> | >> http://sion.quickie.net | --Wallace Stevens >> > > > _______________________________________________ > free-sklyarov mailing list > free-sklyarov at zork.net > http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov > -- Visit proclus realm! http://www.proclus-realm.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBOULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 07:07:45 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:07:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > Gee, imagine that, the Attorney General wanting to enforce crimes. > > What *is* this world coming to? > > We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect > the LEAs to enforce all laws that are on the books. > > If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's > the legislature and the Executive branch. Actually they do share some of the blame. They are swore oaths to support the constitution and the ideals of the this country. Which in many cases is clearly not the intent or result of their actions. They are actively looking for methods to circumvent current laws that put a bridle on their activity. LEA's don's say "OK, we have a 4th so we have to have probable cause first", it's like "OK, we have a 4th. We need to find a way around it." In many cases it is the LEA's themselves which ask for these laws or a law that gives them the latitutude to get around other restraints. And LEA's are a part of the 'executive branch'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 07:11:25 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:11:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: excuse me, you're on my planet In-Reply-To: <3B595081.2749CF42@black.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > At 04:56 PM 7/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > > >Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and > >planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their > own). > > > > "their planet" ... thanks for the chuckle, Jim. It's part 'your' planet as well. Ok, poor wording. How about 'their share of the planet'. Your 'chuckle' is really nothing more than the result of believing that 'ownership' is 1-to-1. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From noreply at cnnimail9.cnn.com Sat Jul 21 06:19:58 2001 From: noreply at cnnimail9.cnn.com (myCNN) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Final Announcement about myCNN Message-ID: <20010721131958.8796A3B447@cnnimail9.cnn.com> Dear myCNN.com User, A notice was recently sent to you about myCNN.com's integration with My Netscape. We are sending you this second note to remind you that that myCNN.com will no longer be available after July 23, 2001. We encourage you to create a new personalized page with My Netscape so you can continue to get the latest news and information tailored to your interests. The next time you visit myCNN.com, you will see a page that directs you to My Netscape to build your page. You will be required to choose a screen name that you will use for all Netscape services including a free Mail account, online Calendar, Instant Messenger and more. Thank you for your continued support, CNN and Netscape From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 07:23:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:23:16 -0500 Subject: Condit Has an Alibi Message-ID: <3B599054.BA0A7097@ssz.com> http://www.msnbc.com/news/603082.asp?cp1=1#BODY -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schoen at loyalty.org Sat Jul 21 09:27:49 2001 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:27:49 -0700 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:11:35PM -0400 References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010721092749.H30157@zork.net> Declan McCullagh writes: > That's because the DMCA only makes commercial circumvention a crime: > > (a) In general. -- Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 > willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private > financial gain, (1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or > imprisoned for not more than 5 years or both, for the first offense > > Non-commercial circumvention may, of course, be a civil offense, as 2600 > found out in the New York case brought by the movie studios. > > This state of affairs creates a mild problem (to go back to the recent > topic of discussion on cypherpunks) for those who strongly believe in > the First Amendment when applied to nonprofit or not-for-profit speech > but less so when it comes to speech that's part of a commercial > transaction. > > For instance, a guy ranting on Usenet, they say, should have free > speech rights, but the tobacco companies or pharmaceutical companies > can properly be muzzled. Let's hope Dmitry, a budding capitalist, > doesn't fall into that same commercial-speech-can-be-regulated > catchall. I agree, and I fear that this is why StreamBox settled in the _Real Networks v. Streambox_ case. They didn't necessarily feel optimistic that their commercial speech would be protected in the view of the courts. The outcome of that case is certainly troubling for this one. For those who don't want to protest Adobe on Monday, why don't you go protest Real Networks? Goodness knows they could use it. :-) Streambox VCR is useful in some of the same ways as AEBPR, although there are perhaps more legal uses for AEBPR and more illegal uses for Streambox VCR. They are both proprietary commercial software and many people do argue that there is a free speech right to sell them (as there is a free speech right to sell books!). But it would be more immediately obvious if they were free/open source. Unfortunately, courts already seem to have a hard enough time believing that electronic publication of free/open source software is protected by the first amendment. -- Seth David Schoen | And do not say, I will study when I Temp. http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | have leisure; for perhaps you will down: http://www.loyalty.org/ (CAF) | not have leisure. -- Pirke Avot 2:5 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jul 21 00:51:44 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (COFOR) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:51:44 +0200 Subject: Cofor ense鎙nza Message-ID: <200107211041.f6LAfu117926@rigel.cyberpass.net> Jacarilla 20.7.2001.Publicidad/Ense簽anza a Distancia Hola que tal: El motivo de la presente carta es informarte de la posibilidad de poder realizar alg繳n curso a distancia de tu inter矇s, cursos relacionados con tu trabajo inquietudes y ocio.ect.El conocimiento es el mayor patrimonio de que podemos disponer. Nos dedicamos desde 1996.a impartir cursos a distancia disponemos de una amplia variedad de cursos sencillos para poder seguirlos comodamente desde cualquier parte del mundo y a unos precios muy competitivos. Cursos ceertificados F.A.D.E Diploma (MED) NET ------------ Redes y Sistemas Sistemas Servers Dise簽o Web BUSSINES ------------ Gestion Comercial y Marketing Relaciones Publicas Recursos Humanos Comercio Exterior Direccion Comercial Gesti籀n Medio Ambiental Direcci籀n de Restaurantes ---------------------------------- SALUD SUPERACION PERSONAL ------------------------------------- Psicoterapia Diet矇tica y Nutrici籀n Dieta Mediterr獺nea Nutr穩 terapia y Salud Monitor Yoga Tai-Chi Hipnoterapia Quiromasaje y Reflexoterapia Aromaterapia Cosm矇tica Natural Hierbas Medicinales -------------------------------------- Los cursos son de 200.horas lectivas el precio standar por curso es de 35.000.pts.Espa簽a a plazos.Iberoamerica 150.usa dolar aplazados. El Diploma: "T矇cnico Especialista" El tiempo aproximado por curso dependiendo de los conocimientos en areas similares de que se disponga,es entre 2-6.meses.aprox. Si desean que les ampliemos informaci籀n pueden enviar un e-mail les contestaremos con la mayor brevedad y les indicaremos nuestro espacio web que se encuentra en reformas. Envie e-mail: COFTOR at terra.es distancia.20 at wanadoo.es cofor_b at wanadoo.es Sin otra que rogarte me envies un e-mail si estas interesado/a Te enviamos un saludo. Merce Sanchez Gesti籀n Integral 1.S.L C/ Virgen de Bel矇n, 30 03310 Jacarilla (Alicante)ESPAA Si desea no recibir mas e-mail. remove/mail animanatu at terra.es From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jul 21 00:52:08 2001 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (COFOR) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:52:08 +0200 Subject: Cofor ense鎙nza Message-ID: <200107210749.DAA20735@waste.minder.net> Jacarilla 20.7.2001.Publicidad/Ense簽anza a Distancia Hola que tal: El motivo de la presente carta es informarte de la posibilidad de poder realizar alg繳n curso a distancia de tu inter矇s, cursos relacionados con tu trabajo inquietudes y ocio.ect.El conocimiento es el mayor patrimonio de que podemos disponer. Nos dedicamos desde 1996.a impartir cursos a distancia disponemos de una amplia variedad de cursos sencillos para poder seguirlos comodamente desde cualquier parte del mundo y a unos precios muy competitivos. Cursos ceertificados F.A.D.E Diploma (MED) NET ------------ Redes y Sistemas Sistemas Servers Dise簽o Web BUSSINES ------------ Gestion Comercial y Marketing Relaciones Publicas Recursos Humanos Comercio Exterior Direccion Comercial Gesti籀n Medio Ambiental Direcci籀n de Restaurantes ---------------------------------- SALUD SUPERACION PERSONAL ------------------------------------- Psicoterapia Diet矇tica y Nutrici籀n Dieta Mediterr獺nea Nutr穩 terapia y Salud Monitor Yoga Tai-Chi Hipnoterapia Quiromasaje y Reflexoterapia Aromaterapia Cosm矇tica Natural Hierbas Medicinales -------------------------------------- Los cursos son de 200.horas lectivas el precio standar por curso es de 35.000.pts.Espa簽a a plazos.Iberoamerica 150.usa dolar aplazados. El Diploma: "T矇cnico Especialista" El tiempo aproximado por curso dependiendo de los conocimientos en areas similares de que se disponga,es entre 2-6.meses.aprox. Si desean que les ampliemos informaci籀n pueden enviar un e-mail les contestaremos con la mayor brevedad y les indicaremos nuestro espacio web que se encuentra en reformas. Envie e-mail: COFTOR at terra.es distancia.20 at wanadoo.es cofor_b at wanadoo.es Sin otra que rogarte me envies un e-mail si estas interesado/a Te enviamos un saludo. Merce Sanchez Gesti籀n Integral 1.S.L C/ Virgen de Bel矇n, 30 03310 Jacarilla (Alicante)ESPAA Si desea no recibir mas e-mail. remove/mail animanatu at terra.es From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 10:03:38 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <001101c111cd$59608470$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010721170338.26392.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> > > > Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very > > > paranoid. > > > > > > Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to > > > taunting. > > > > > > (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). > > > > This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise > > sorry. > > Unfortunately it's not. So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software sweatshops ? What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds should be afraid of ? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From roy at scytale.com Sat Jul 21 08:19:39 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:19:39 -0500 Subject: What the Swiss have In-Reply-To: References: <200107202010.QAA02986@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3B59573B.30078.152DBD8F@localhost> On 20 Jul 2001, at 16:19, Ray Dillinger wrote: > People are surprising. Even the most idiotic can show a grain > of common sense once they realize that their accustomed prey is > carrying. I'd bet that, after an initial few killings, an > amazingly polite and civil society would develop. "An armed society is a polite society." - RAH -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy at scytale.com DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Key 0x1AF39331 : 71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569 D96B BD40 D926 C05E Key available from pubkey at scytale.com I charge to process unsolicited commercial email From amaha at vsnl.net Sat Jul 21 08:19:50 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:19:50 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107211519.f6LFJnq29166@ak47.algebra.com> It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle ***************************************************************************** Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 10:37:48 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721115829.A7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010721173748.92480.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> > Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, > their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this > point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list: Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda. Translating protesters' agenda to "anti-property" *is* pure propaganda designed to scare god-fearing middle class cypherpunks that somehow they will lose some of their property should G8 protesters seize the world government (BTW, it would be interesting to see what is the net worth of cpunkers and how that influences their positions :-) As the word "communist" loses its strength new words are needed to instill fear, and "anti-property" is a nice catchall. It's all in the language. You also enumerate ideologies with implicit assumption that they are "bad". So whatever can be labeled "marxist" or "socialist" is somehow horrible. You don't say WHAT is bad about it, you *assume* that everyone will jump to the bandwagon and agree that it's something bad. Kill the commies. This is a classic propaganda technique. I will not bother citing sources that have exactly the opposite PoV from Cato's - you can look them up yourself. The point of a discussion is not spamming each other with pre-digested, ready-to-wear, downloaded simplifications but to inject some of own experience and induction. Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 21 11:09:49 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:09:49 -0700 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010721110949.0085fbf0@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:11 PM 7/21/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >The interesting thing in this case is that Dmitry was not arrested for >discussing or revealing information about Adobe's arguably-sucky copy >protection system. If you read the FBI affidavit >(http://cryptome.org/usa-v-sklyarov.htm), you'll note that the FBI >seems only concerned about his commercial activities: And the FBI identifies him as the copyright holder. What would they have done if a group[1] was listed after the (C)? [1] registered corporation, anonymous coders, anonymous registered corporation (?) etc. From bear at sonic.net Sat Jul 21 11:14:15 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <20010721170338.26392.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote: >So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun >fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software >sweatshops ? > >What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds >should be afraid of ? The police, and possibly military presence, responding to Adobe executives panicked calls that they are "under attack by an armed mob of anarchists bent on the utter destruction of our building and grounds and possibly the murder of our employees and executives..." Adobe security guys behind a window on the third floor of the building, scanning the crowd with a high-resolution camera, and the $MILLIONS they are willing to spend to hire a private investigator to find out who each and every one of the people in the picture is so that police complaints can be filed against each and every one, and charges brought for criminal trespass, even if it takes months.... And of course the money spent tracking them all down will be on the bill of damages they try to recover.... Illegal "sweetheart deals" that have been worked out with police officials and/or private security whereby they've pretty much agreed in advance that if Adobe puts out the right codeword, a bunch of muscular men in riot gear will show up to HURT the "attackers" - this could involve the deployment of tear gas or pepper spray. Miscellaneous water cannon, rubber bullets, and, worst of all, thundering herds of lawyers both for attack and defense. I'm pretty sure attack dogs are effectively banned in California due to astronomical liability settlements, but otherwise you'd have to worry about that. Make no mistake, an american company with a really paranoid bent can make life sheer hell for any who have the temerity to show up protesting on its grounds. It costs them a lot of goodwill though -- if they pull out all the stops more than once every few years, it's going to seriously hurt their reputation and their business. I doubt that Adobe will go the whole route here: I bet they'll go as far as meeting the protesters with a full cordon of armed law officers, but if things stay peaceful, the two groups will probably be able to just stand a respectful distance apart and wave at each other politely. They'll probably scan the crowd with a high-res camera, but probably won't bother to file charges unless someone throws a rock or something. And we're not likely to see water cannon or pepper spray used unless someone actually gets inside one of the buildings. Bear From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 21 11:14:18 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:14:18 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010721111418.00851d70@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:27 PM 7/21/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > >Not all of us. In fact, if you look at the statistics, e.g. we Finnish >people are actually quite *well* armed. Just not with handguns, but hunting >rifles. I've read that the Finnish Surgeon General (equiv.) *recommends* the use of silencers; and the use is common for keeping peace with neighbors too. You can't imagine how amusing/twisted that is in the US, where silencers are linked with al capone, etc. From bob at black.org Sat Jul 21 11:20:34 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:20:34 -0700 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday Message-ID: <3B59C7F2.64E80357@black.org> At 10:03 AM 7/21/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: >> > > Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very >> > > paranoid. >> > > >> > > Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to >> > > taunting. >> > > >> > > (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). >> > >> > This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise >> > sorry. >> >> Unfortunately it's not. > >So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun >fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software >sweatshops ? > >What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds >should be afraid of ? M.E. is too conservative. Our psych-history-simulations reveal that you'will make a point by using the specific term "kidnapping", as in, Adobe Kidnapped Dmitri or Adobe Kidnaps Fair Use. ....... "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error" - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson From bob at black.org Sat Jul 21 11:20:46 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:20:46 -0700 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday Message-ID: <3B59C7FE.1696791F@black.org> At 10:03 AM 7/21/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: >> > > Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very >> > > paranoid. >> > > >> > > Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to >> > > taunting. >> > > >> > > (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). >> > >> > This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise >> > sorry. >> >> Unfortunately it's not. > >So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun >fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software >sweatshops ? > >What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds >should be afraid of ? M.E. is too conservative. Our psych-history-simulations reveal that you'will make a point by using the specific term "kidnapping", as in, Adobe Kidnapped Dmitri or Adobe Kidnaps Fair Use. ....... "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error" - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson From bob at black.org Sat Jul 21 11:31:03 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:31:03 -0700 Subject: Lawyer not charged for giving out police witnesses' addresses Message-ID: <3B59CA66.C363F9B8@black.org> Re: Kirkland police files, Jim Bell, cryptome, etc. Basically a lawyer gives the addresses of two police witnesses and gets off scott free. Well, a lil' fine from his guild. Are lawyers special objects now? http://latimes.com/news/local/la-000059505jul21.story LOS ANGELES Judge Dismisses Charges Against Olson Attorney By ANNA GORMAN, TIMES STAFF WRITER A Los Angeles County Superior Court judge dismissed criminal charges Friday against Tony Serra, a defense attorney in the bomb conspiracy trial of alleged Symbionese Liberation Army member Sara Jane Olson. Serra had faced trial on misdemeanor charges that he disclosed the addresses and phone numbers of two police witnesses in a court document for Olson's upcoming case. He was scheduled to be tried July 30. The Los Angeles city attorney's office moved to drop the case after Serra agreed to pay $5,000 to the Police Memorial Foundation, From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 08:58:29 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:58:29 -0400 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721071452.95550.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>; from morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:14:52AM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010720212533.02d4b660@frissell@brillig.panix. c om> <20010721071452.95550.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010721115829.A7990@cluebot.com> On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:14:52AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > You are a ... "journalist" ??? Everyone's a journalist nowadays. > Where, pray tell, did you divine that G8 protesters "don't believe in property" > ? Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02281.html -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 09:11:35 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:11:35 -0400 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 10:39:06PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 10:39:06PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > An unconstitutional law. A law which limits freedom in a country which is > ultimately governed by "Congress shall make no law..." > > If you can't catch that clue, there is no hope. The interesting thing in this case is that Dmitry was not arrested for discussing or revealing information about Adobe's arguably-sucky copy protection system. If you read the FBI affidavit (http://cryptome.org/usa-v-sklyarov.htm), you'll note that the FBI seems only concerned about his commercial activities: Diaz affirmed that he believes the Elcomsoft Software program, coupled with the Elcomsoft unlocking key, circumvents protection afforded by a technological measure developed by Adobe for its Acrobat eBook Reader either by avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactiviating, or otherwise impairing the technological measure. I believe Dmitry Sklyarov, employee of Elcomsoft and the individual listed on the Elcomsoft software products as the copyright holder of the program sold and produced by Elcomsoft, known as the Advanced eBook Processor, has willfully and for financial gain (etc.) That's because the DMCA only makes commercial circumvention a crime: (a) In general. -- Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, (1) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years or both, for the first offense Non-commercial circumvention may, of course, be a civil offense, as 2600 found out in the New York case brought by the movie studios. This state of affairs creates a mild problem (to go back to the recent topic of discussion on cypherpunks) for those who strongly believe in the First Amendment when applied to nonprofit or not-for-profit speech but less so when it comes to speech that's part of a commercial transaction. For instance, a guy ranting on Usenet, they say, should have free speech rights, but the tobacco companies or pharmaceutical companies can properly be muzzled. Let's hope Dmitry, a budding capitalist, doesn't fall into that same commercial-speech-can-be-regulated catchall. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 12:12:23 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:12:23 -0700 Subject: Free speech is for whisperers In-Reply-To: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 12:11 PM -0400 7/21/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >This state of affairs creates a mild problem (to go back to the recent >topic of discussion on cypherpunks) for those who strongly believe in >the First Amendment when applied to nonprofit or not-for-profit speech >but less so when it comes to speech that's part of a commercial >transaction. > >For instance, a guy ranting on Usenet, they say, should have free >speech rights, but the tobacco companies or pharmaceutical companies >can properly be muzzled. Let's hope Dmitry, a budding capitalist, >doesn't fall into that same commercial-speech-can-be-regulated >catchall. There should be no restrictions on the speech of the ranter on Usenet. There should be no restrictions on the speech of a political campaigner. Ergo, both the Republican and Democrat versions of "campaign reform" are slam dunk violations of the First. There should be no restrictions on the speech of a tobacco or pharmaceutical or any other company. Ergo, restrictions on advertising...you all know the drill. The cigarette advertising restrictions of the 1960s were a blatant violation of the First Amendment. Not even the so-called commerce clause of the Constitution gives government the power to stifle the speech of a cigarette seller. Sadly, this and many other restrictions (sometimes bringing in "interstate commerce" in farfetched ways as an excuse) were not challenged. Or the courts refused to face up to the real issues. Now we are in a precarious position of having many forms of speech, many utterances, subject to various laws. We are not very far away from banning actual utterances which are in support of unapproved-of activities. Advertising, advocating illegal substances, hate speech, dislike speech, speech harmful to children and companion animals, the list goes on and on. "You can urge your friends to vote for John McCain in 2004, but if you spend more than the amount that McCain-Feingold says you may spend you are a felon." Free speech is for whisperers, it seems. So much for "Congress shall make no law..." --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 09:19:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:19:47 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: ; from freematt@coil.com on Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 10:18:25PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010721121947.C7990@cluebot.com> On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 10:18:25PM -0400, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > Remember what I told you: "If you think Clinton was dismal, > you're going to find out what dismal *is*, during a Bush administration." This is too simplistic. > [And Matt's reply is: They're both dismal.] This is better. The truth is that they're dismal in different areas. We may not have a Waco under Ashcroft, and he may be mildly better on 2A rights, and he may not have same weird fixations that Reno did. But the obscenity "crackdown" is coming, that's for sure, and we'll have plenty more to complain about int he next year or so. Also, on the Sklyarov issue, it's a mistake to believe there's any substantial difference in the major parties. Clinton signed the DMCA with the appropriate fanfare; a motion to reconsider the DMCA in the House was tabled *without objection* and the DMCA was agreed to in the Senate *without objection* by unanimous consent. This was not a hotly-debated law, folks. Anyone who thinks there's a difference between the two major parties on this issue -- and I'm not saying Matt does, of course -- should get over it. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 12:22:36 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:22:36 -0700 Subject: Lawyer not charged for giving out police witnesses' addresses In-Reply-To: <3B59CA66.C363F9B8@black.org> References: <3B59CA66.C363F9B8@black.org> Message-ID: At 11:31 AM -0700 7/21/01, Subcommander Bob wrote: >Re: Kirkland police files, Jim Bell, cryptome, etc. > >Basically a lawyer gives the addresses of two police witnesses >and gets off scott free. Well, a lil' fine from his guild. > >Are lawyers special objects now? No, read the last line. In a shakedown state, donating to the donut fund is the way out of many a problem: >http://latimes.com/news/local/la-000059505jul21.story > The >Los Angeles city attorney's office > moved >to drop the case after Serra > >agreed to pay $5,000 to the Police > >Memorial Foundation, --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 12:26:07 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:26:07 -0700 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010721144038.02073db0@mail.well.com> References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010721144038.02073db0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 2:42 PM -0400 7/21/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >At 11:09 AM 7/21/01 -0700, David Honig wrote: >>And the FBI identifies him as the copyright holder. >> >>What would they have done if a group[1] was listed after the (C)? >>[1] registered corporation, anonymous coders, anonymous registered >>corporation (?) etc. > >Your guess is as good as mine, and I'll defer to the criminal >lawyers here, if there are any. My suspicion: In truly "criminal" >enterprises, I suspect they'd go after the officers of the >corporation. But in practice "trafficking" is a broad prohibition, >and the Feds will arrest anyone involved who sets foot in the U.S. Should be quite interesting in a tit-for-tat way when employees of certain U.S. chip companies set foot in, say, Germany. (Pace the Rambus /Infineon case, where charges and countercharges of copyright and patent infringement, even the DCMA, are flying.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From bensons at zero.neohaven.net Sat Jul 21 10:32:39 2001 From: bensons at zero.neohaven.net (Benson Schliesser) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:32:39 -0500 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime References: Message-ID: <003701c1120b$23a5e760$32595ad8@PANIC> > We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect the LEAs to enforce all laws that are on the books. > > If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the legislature and the Executive branch. And the Jewish population of Europe during WW2 had no right to complain about the Nazi soldiers just doing their job, right... From sethf at sethf.com Sat Jul 21 09:40:52 2001 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:40:52 -0400 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B59B094.595B2FF4@sethf.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > This state of affairs creates a mild problem (to go back to the recent > topic of discussion on cypherpunks) for those who strongly believe in > the First Amendment when applied to nonprofit or not-for-profit speech > but less so when it comes to speech that's part of a commercial > transaction. Heck, Declan, as far as I recall, you don't believe that the First Amendment applies to people who merely REPEAT (for profit) too many words you originally wrote as speech that's part of a certain commercial transaction (i.e. "copyrighted articles", which you are paid for). In fact, I can't look this up now, but I believe you've posted to the cypherpunks list on this very topic in the past. You want the government to punish people who simply say too many words that you originally said. Isn't that very inconsistent philosophically for you? By the way, as you know, this distinction is enshrined in copyright law: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html Sec. 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; > Let's hope Dmitry, a budding capitalist, doesn't fall > into that same commercial-speech-can-be-regulated catchall. But Declan, as a Libertarian proselytizer. how can you justify making your living from a government-granted monopoly which infringes on free speech? Note the above is not necessarily my view. But if you are going to try to use this tragedy to recruit people for silly Libertarian ideology, I think consistency demands you apply the same argument to your articles too. Have you changed your views on this topic since I last saw them discussed? -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf at sethf.com http://sethf.com http://www10.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From sandfort at mindspring.com Sat Jul 21 13:11:27 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:11:27 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Anonymous" wrote: > "Collateral damage" occurs in any > battle. If you hold the battle in > Switzerland the "collateral damage" > would simply include a higher "loss > of human life" content... > > The real issue is the fact that the > battle takes place. *IF* the battle takes place. What if they gave a war and nobody came? I really doubt there would be any greater loss of human life were the meeting held in Switzerland for reasons I'll get into below. > Protestors don't gather and put > their personal well-being at risk > for no reason... That's an interesting, but unsupported assumption. > ...In the case of those protesting > in Genoa, the reasons are varied > but centered around a single point: > globalization and big government > has not helped the people. Those may be their STATED reasons, but I submit that you have no idea what the "protestors" actual motivations are. If we all look back to our younger days, I think we can see a much more plausible explanation for their actions. Hell raising. For certain people at certain ages, it's FUN to riot, throw things at the cops, trash stores, overturn cars and burn stuff. It is exactly the real lack of coherent messages from the "protestors" that supports this obvious conclusion. At the University of Michigan, the riots were basically the same, only the justification was more banal--the outlawing of booze on campus. It should be obvious that these riots are not so much ideologically motivated (though that's the pseudo-rational), but testosterone motivated. Most of these monkeys couldn't spell anarchy let alone understand it philosophically. Let's not confuse the cover story with the real motive--fucking stuff up for the fun of it. Money doesn't matter; government doesn't matter; people > do matter. The people have not been helped by the forces of globalization. > The people have not been helped by the World Bank, IMF, G8. That is, the > people that populate the cities and farm the countryside. The > elite few % of > the people who control the world, via government and corporations, exploit > the rest of the world for their benefit. G8 is just one of their > tools. They > are helped by the World Bank. They are the ones being opposed by the > protestors. They will be made accountable for their actions--these battles > will not end. > > Revolutions and Civil Wars have occurred regularly for hundreds of years > over this very issue. This war has simply escalated to the scale > that is has > because the enemy has escalated to the scale that it has. It takes tens of > thousands or protestors to get a message out against a global governmental > organization. > > Contrary to the statements made by current "world leaders", this is > democracy in action. So, if the "protestors" were faced with a REAL opportunity to get hurt, other than the mostly fake danger of charging police lines, I doubt many would bother to show up. Hell, running with the bulls at Pamplona is a more dangerous rite of passage than torching a MacDonald's in Genoa. If you think these folks have deep ideological/philosophical support for their rioting, you have been duped. S a n d y From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 11:15:27 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:15:27 -0500 Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 Message-ID: <3B59C6BF.721741@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/21/genoa.protester/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sat Jul 21 13:16:21 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:16:21 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: John Young wrote: > But, to repeat, why the worker and > not his bosses? Is this a way for > Adobe/FBI/DoJ to signal the interest > of its own bosses? Maybe, but the reason to go after the underling is simple: He's far less likely to have the personal resources to do much about it. Cowardly? Sure, but it makes for easier arrests, incarcerations and convictions. Also, it inexpensively meets the criteria of the old Chinese saying, "To frighten a dragon, kill a chicken." S a n d y From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Jul 21 13:43:08 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:43:08 -0700 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) References: <3B59C7F2.64E80357@black.org> Message-ID: <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Subcommander Bob" To: Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday Black Unicorn Scribed: > >> > > Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is > >> > >very paranoid. > >> > > > >> > > Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact > >> > > to taunting. > >> > > > >> > > (Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat). Someone answered: > >> > This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but > >> > otherwise sorry. I replied: > >> Unfortunately it's not. > At 10:03 AM 7/21/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi replied: > >So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with > >machine-gun fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and > >cart them to software sweatshops ? > > > >What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public > >grounds should be afraid of ? Quite a lot actually. This is why I like most cypherpunks. They have the most charming naivet矇 about the real world. It's quaint. I see it most often in their propensity to argue to most obscure technical-legal points with the full expectation that a judge isn't just going to say "that's specious counselor, have any real arguments?" I love hearing things like: "Well if I just have the micromint transfer all its money to itself first then that's legally a transaction, right?" or "I'm not transferring the e-gold to the user, I'm transferring it to his key, so there are no taxes!" or "Sorry your honor, I used key splitting to put the key in 4 jurisdictions so I can't recover the critical financial data under subpoena. Now you have to send me home. Hee hee!" The second most frequent expression of this kind of sheltered thinking is in the political-societal belief that there is no such thing as "street justice" in the United States and that officers aren't prone to poke the odd protestor with a nightstick in any country except Mexico or India or the Middle East or some other far away and out of sight place. "But this is AMERICA!" or "But I'm an AMERICAN!" Good morning. How was your sleep? I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they have on the street is a good whack to opposing counsel's head and that about the most serious ramifications of this might be that the protestor gets off scott free after 48 hours in holding with the gang bangers. It's pretty easy to get arrested in a protest situation. Life is manifestly unfair to arrestees. You decide what you want to do about it. Adobe is a large and influential company in the Valley. It may very well be responsible for getting the Commissioner of Labor in California removed from office simply because they disagreed with his ruling on forced vacations for their employees. Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do in Adobe's place? (I know you are suddenly tempted to come up with a witty reply. It's a rhetorical question, smartass). Here is an article on the kidnapping of Adobe co-founder Chuck Geschke: http://www.losaltosonline.com/latc/arch/9742/Exclusiv/1adobe/1adobe.html An excerpt: It was supposed to be a normal day at the office for Adobe Systems president Charles "Chuck" Geschke when he pulled into the parking lot of his Mountain View headquarters on May 26, 1992. Instead, his kidnapping at gunpoint by two Arabic men began a five-day nightmare in which Geschke was blindfolded and unaware of his location. His frantic family, in the meantime, enlisted the help of the FBI in a search that was the biggest of its kind since the kidnapping of Patti Hearst. Chuck's rescue was triggered by daughter Kathy's drop-off of ransom money and her negotiations with the captors. The news of the kidnapping made headlines all over the world. The family, still, has not fully recovered from the emotional harm. [...] To this day, [Chuck] still has flashbacks when he drives into a parking lot void of cars or people. And he has replayed his capture dozens of times, both during and after captivity, questioning his decision to obey the armed stranger. The nightmares, which continue to this day, were just the start of a whole new deck of fears the family had to deal with once they returned to Los Altos after their month retreat. Chuck's insecurities about his safety invaded all aspects of his life. The 6-foot, 1-inch, 220-pound Chuck now scares easily. "I see someone walking or parking in front of the house and I try to notice if there is anything suspicious about it. I never, never had that feeling ever in my life before. I've always been a very open person, never felt any physical fear of any kind," he said. end excerpt. Following the kidnapping Adobe made such substantial changes to security that employees jokingly, and not so jokingly, refer to it as "Fortress Adobe" now. I think you're going to have to decide if it's a wise idea to provoke these people. Peaceful protest is a good thing. Still, be careful. Mr. Geschke and the FBI are awfully tight now. > M.E. is too conservative. Our psych-history-simulations reveal that > you'will make a point by using the specific term "kidnapping", as in, > Adobe Kidnapped Dmitri or Adobe Kidnaps Fair Use. A clever and subtle tactic. Exactly what I would expect from the more clever cypherpunks. (Even more clever to suggest its use to others, rather than using it yourself). Please use it carefully. It might send entirely the WRONG message. Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully. From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Sat Jul 21 11:45:35 2001 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:45:35 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral > damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. "Collateral damage" occurs in any battle. If you hold the battle in Switzerland the "collateral damage" would simply include a higher "loss of human life" content. (forshadowing of the coming WTO summit in Qatar?) The real issue is the fact that the battle takes place. Protestors don't gather and put their personal well-being at risk for no reason. In the case of those protesting in Genoa, the reasons are varied but centered around a single point: globalization and big government has not helped the people. Money doesn't matter; government doesn't matter; people do matter. The people have not been helped by the forces of globalization. The people have not been helped by the World Bank, IMF, G8. That is, the people that populate the cities and farm the countryside. The elite few % of the people who control the world, via government and corporations, exploit the rest of the world for their benefit. G8 is just one of their tools. They are helped by the World Bank. They are the ones being opposed by the protestors. They will be made accountable for their actions--these battles will not end. Revolutions and Civil Wars have occurred regularly for hundreds of years over this very issue. This war has simply escalated to the scale that is has because the enemy has escalated to the scale that it has. It takes tens of thousands or protestors to get a message out against a global governmental organization. Contrary to the statements made by current "world leaders", this is democracy in action. From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 13:47:50 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:47:50 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: At 4:01 PM -0700 7/21/01, John Young wrote: >Declan: > >>The problem with this analysis is that he does not have to be the >>main commercial beneficiary for the charges to stick. > >But, to repeat, why the worker and not his bosses? Is this a way >for Adobe/FBI/DoJ to signal the interest of its own bosses? > >And why are the protests limited to Adobe when the FBI and >DoJ are doing the dirty work -- well, actually, low-level FBI >and DoJ? Oops, that's right, don't fuck with workers-pissed- >at-their-bosses who have the guns which they'd like to turn >upstairs. What follows is mostly speculation, as I obviously don't know any of the people involved. When I first heard about the DefCon bust of the Russian, my first question was: "Had there been an arrest warrant issued, or did the Feds simply look at the list of who was presenting papers or had been identified otherwise (hotel register, nametags) and then try to find something to stick them with?" As for why they busted this Russian in Vegas and not the corporation owner who, we now hear, was in Seattle, there are several issues: 1. The above point, that maybe they just looked for someone to bust. 2. High profile. DefCon is a good place to bust an Evil Hacker D00d and get a lot of publicity for the already-scheduled "Cybercrime" shindig in Silicon Valley a few days later. Lots of press coverage, lots of guilt-by-association mileage out of it being the DefCon conference. 3. They probably had no idea the Russian company's owner/manager happened to be in Seattle. (Just speculation...after all, why would the FBI know where a corporate officer was? They guy in Vegas was where the action was.) There's no law against generating an arrest warrant _after_ a suspect is seen to be someplace, but it smacks of various unsavory things to show up a conference and "run the names" so as to look for things they could seek arrest warrants on. As Declan and others have said, this may be the last time a DefCon is held in the U.S. (Not that other countries are necessarily better. Attendees in Canada may face arrest by the Mounties for hate crimes, for violating the Teale-Homulka censorship, for working for a magazine which has broken Canadian laws, etc. And as the Henson case showed, the Canadian SWAT ninjas are perfectly willing to do a "take down" when their bosses to the south order it.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 10:50:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:50:47 -0400 Subject: State appeals court says ignorance no defense in wiretapping Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010721135015.02044530@mail.well.com> http://www.sunspot.net/news/printedition/bal-ar.deibler18jul18.story?coll=bal-pe-arundel 2001-07-18 05:35:39 Court boosts taping laws Appeals judges say ignorance no defense in wiretapping cases; 'Willfully' is key word; Decision stems from surveillance of Edgewater home By Andrea F. Siegel Sun Staff July 18, 2001 In a decision that will benefit prosecutors, the state's highest court ruled yesterday that a person need not know it is illegal to bug conversations to be convicted of wiretapping. The 5-2 Court of Appeals opinion sets aside what had been the prevailing interpretation, in which the lower appellate court said a person who violates the state wiretapping law must know that what he did was illegal. The standard in yesterday's ruling says a defendant can be convicted if the wiretap was done on purpose, not inadvertently. ... From sethf at sethf.com Sat Jul 21 10:52:50 2001 From: sethf at sethf.com (Seth Finkelstein) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:52:50 -0400 Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <20010721092749.H30157@zork.net> Message-ID: <3B59C172.C7FADE61@sethf.com> Seth David Schoen wrote: > Unfortunately, courts already seem to have a hard enough time > believing that electronic publication of free/open source software is > protected by the first amendment. While this is true, there's a very deep issue in the definition of "protected". The problem is better rendered that the courts have taken the view that the protection of (intellectual) *property rights* trumps the free-speech concerns here. There's a very revealing paragraph in the DeCSS decision concerning this: "Thus, even if one accepted defendants' argument that the anti-trafficking prohibition of the DMCA is content based because it regulates only code that "expresses" the programmer's "ideas" for circumventing access control measures, the question would remain whether such code--code designed to circumvent measures controlling access to private or legally protected data--nevertheless could be regulated on the basis of that content. For the reasons set forth in the text, the Court concludes that it may. Alternatively, even if such a categorical or definitional approach were eschewed, the Court would uphold the application of the DMCA now before it on the ground that this record establishes an imminent threat of danger flowing from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ dissemination of DeCSS that far outweighs the need for unfettered ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ communication of that program. See Landmark Communications, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Inc. v. Virginia, 435 U.S. 829, 842-43 (1978)." -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf at sethf.com http://sethf.com http://www10.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html From jya at pipeline.com Sat Jul 21 13:55:12 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:55:12 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Why bust Dmitry and not the head of ElcomSoft if the primary crime is commercial gain? That he is claimed to be the copyright holder is thin stuff, for that does not support his being the main commercial beneficiary (unless the FBI has evidence that was not revealed about Elcomsoft's internal finances). To be sure some of the officers of ElcomSoft have ties to the KGB and the FBI and the CIA are customers of the firm, as likely are other countries' TLAs. That Dmitry was busted has a stench of scapegoatism, and ElcomSoft may not be altogether innocent, not least for sending Dmitry into the lion's den. Read the statements made by ElcomSoft officers carefully about prior appearances at conferences outside of Russia. Protestations claiming the officers had no idea a bust was in the offing are a bit much. It may well be that the Dmitry bust is a ploy whose purpose will be revealed later as we learn more about cooperation among the globe's law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Would ElcomSoft shop Dmitry for closer ties with USG customers with fat budgets for fighting cybercrime? Perhaps not with initial intent to do so but could very well do so in order to close a deal and better deals to come. Ashcroft's talk about the new cybercrime initiative, and the new incoming FBI director's career advancement due to that cause, seems to point to somebody like Dmitry being busted at about the time he was -- if not him then another Defcon target. Who else was being similarly, is being, investigated will no doubt be announced as the new FBI's chief's approval by Congress works its way through the FBI-credibility-restoration mill. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 13:58:39 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721141017.A10338@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010721205839.11069.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> > So instead of responding to the text of the article, you rant about the I am not going to analyze adverts from your site - if you have to say something say it here - as I tried to explain in simple terms, spamming with canned stuff is not the point of a discussion. Or is it too expensive for you in cognitive terms to come up with arguments yourself ? > author. That's intellectual integrity about on the level of many of > those anti-property rights protests. Your perception is impaired. I never mentioned the author. *You* qualified author as "Cato's". Another granfallooning. I simply pointed that out and re-qualified what you implied about Cato, in your manner of using implied values to build a point out of nothing. > The problem is that the protesters have no coherent message. Take this > bit of silliness: This is not bad in itself. Single-mindedness is not really a quality I am looking for. Are they all supposed to be warriors for the same idea ? Where did you get that ? > Does anyone really think that breastfeeding is a right anytime, > anywhere? Don't I have a right to tell someone to leave my home if > they're doing it at a gathering I'm hosting on my property? (I > wouldn't, but that's not the point.) These are rhetorical questions. The answers are supposed to be, let me see ... "no" and "yes" ? The analogy is false, of course. Take a look at US propaganda shorts from 50-ties and learn what to avoid. > Yep. And it's also pretty accurate. The protesters have no coherent message, There it goes again. Is it too hard to understand that these people are not corporate employees adhering to company's policies ? Declan, you proved beyond any doubt that you have nothing to say. You just talk an re-shuffle buzzwords you deem popular. You are also incompetent propagandist - I do enjoy discussing with the skilled ones, though. Therefore I see no point in furthering this exchange. Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Jul 21 12:08:01 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:08:01 -0500 Subject: [spam score 10.00/10.0 -pobox] State appeals court says ignorance no defense in wiretapping In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010721135015.02044530@mail.well.com> Message-ID: Opinion at: http://www.courts.state.md.us/opinions/coa/2001/125a00.pdf "We are all familiar with the legend of Lady Godiva who, in response to a commitment by her husband, Leofric, Earl of Mercia, to repeal onerous taxes levied on the people of Coventry if she dared to ride naked through the town, supposedly did so. Part of that legend, added some 600 years after the event, was that one person in the town, a tailor named Tom, had the temerity to glance upon the noblewoman as she proceeded on her mission and was immediately struck either blind or dead. This probably-mythical tailor became known to history as Peeping Tom." "This case involves another peeping Tom  petitioner Thomas Deibler. Deibler gazed not upon a woman on horseback, but upon a woman taking a shower...." [...] Bawah. Thanks. ~Aimee From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 11:10:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:10:17 -0400 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721173748.92480.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>; from morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:37:48AM -0700 References: <20010721115829.A7990@cluebot.com> <20010721173748.92480.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010721141017.A10338@cluebot.com> On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:37:48AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of > the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda. So instead of responding to the text of the article, you rant about the author. That's intellectual integrity about on the level of many of those anti-property rights protests. > Translating protesters' agenda to "anti-property" *is* pure propaganda designed > to scare god-fearing middle class cypherpunks that somehow they will lose some > of their property should G8 protesters seize the world government (BTW, it The problem is that the protesters have no coherent message. Take this bit of silliness: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10/breastfeeding-is-your-right.html Does anyone really think that breastfeeding is a right anytime, anywhere? Don't I have a right to tell someone to leave my home if they're doing it at a gathering I'm hosting on my property? (I wouldn't, but that's not the point.) > As the word "communist" loses its strength new words are needed to instill > fear, and "anti-property" is a nice catchall. It's all in the language. Yep. And it's also pretty accurate. The protesters have no coherent message, but a disdain for property rights is about as close as they come to one. -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Sat Jul 21 12:11:04 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | SSH Secure Shell 3.0.0 Remote Hole Message-ID: <3B59D3C8.F86540E8@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/21/1811221.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 11:12:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:12:43 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:55:12PM -0700 References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010721141243.B10338@cluebot.com> On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:55:12PM -0700, John Young wrote: > Why bust Dmitry and not the head of ElcomSoft if the > primary crime is commercial gain? That he is claimed > to be the copyright holder is thin stuff, for that does not > support his being the main commercial beneficiary (unless > the FBI has evidence that was not revealed about Elcomsoft's > internal finances). The problem with this analysis is that he does not have to be the main commercial beneficiary for the charges to stick. -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 11:42:16 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:42:16 -0400 Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 In-Reply-To: <3B59C6BF.721741@ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:15:27PM -0500 References: <3B59C6BF.721741@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010721144216.B10879@cluebot.com> I'm sympathetic to the deceased's family. But it strikes me that if you assault a police vehicle with armed cops inside with the evident intent to do physical harm, you'd better be wearing a bulletproof vest. -Declan On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:15:27PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/21/genoa.protester/index.html > -- > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > B.A. Behrend > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 11:42:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:42:49 -0400 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010721110949.0085fbf0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010721144038.02073db0@mail.well.com> At 11:09 AM 7/21/01 -0700, David Honig wrote: >And the FBI identifies him as the copyright holder. > >What would they have done if a group[1] was listed after the (C)? >[1] registered corporation, anonymous coders, anonymous registered >corporation (?) etc. Your guess is as good as mine, and I'll defer to the criminal lawyers here, if there are any. My suspicion: In truly "criminal" enterprises, I suspect they'd go after the officers of the corporation. But in practice "trafficking" is a broad prohibition, and the Feds will arrest anyone involved who sets foot in the U.S. -Declan From jya at pipeline.com Sat Jul 21 15:00:29 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:00:29 -0700 Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010721144038.02073db0@mail.well.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010721110949.0085fbf0@pop.sprynet.com> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200107211900.PAA21753@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Declan: >Your guess is as good as mine, and I'll defer to the criminal lawyers here, >if there are any. My suspicion: In truly "criminal" enterprises, I suspect >they'd go after the officers of the corporation. But in practice >"trafficking" is a broad prohibition, and the Feds will arrest anyone >involved who sets foot in the U.S. But the ElcomSoft officers were not arrested, and it seems they are more responsible for the commercial exploitation of AEBPR than Dmitry. Now their arrest may be in the offing if they have not left the US or underground. Is Dmitry now bait for the ElcomSoft officers? From schear at lvcm.com Sat Jul 21 15:39:29 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:39:29 -0700 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> References: <3B59C7F2.64E80357@black.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010721151502.04556978@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:43 PM 7/21/2001 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Subcommander Bob" >To: >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 11:20 AM >Subject: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday > > >What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public > > >grounds should be afraid of ? > >Quite a lot actually. > >This is why I like most cypherpunks. They have the most charming naiveti >about the real world. It's quaint. I see it most often in their >propensity to argue to most obscure technical-legal points with the full >expectation that a judge isn't just going to say "that's specious >counselor, have any real arguments?" I love hearing things like: "Well if >I just have the micromint transfer all its money to itself first then >that's legally a transaction, right?" or "I'm not transferring the e-gold >to the user, I'm transferring it to his key, so there are no taxes!" or >"Sorry your honor, I used key splitting to put the key in 4 jurisdictions >so I can't recover the critical financial data under subpoena. Now you >have to send me home. Hee hee!" > >The second most frequent expression of this kind of sheltered thinking is >in the political-societal belief that there is no such thing as "street >justice" in the United States and that officers aren't prone to poke the >odd protestor with a nightstick in any country except Mexico or India or >the Middle East or some other far away and out of sight place. "But this >is AMERICA!" or "But I'm an AMERICAN!" Good morning. How was your sleep? > >I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real >encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they have >on the street is a good whack to opposing counsel's head and that about the >most serious ramifications of this might be that the protestor gets off >scott free after 48 hours in holding with the gang bangers. > >It's pretty easy to get arrested in a protest situation. Life is >manifestly unfair to arrestees. You decide what you want to do about it. A lesson not lost of The Founders, many who paid with their lives and their fortunes even if they did keep their sacred honor. Even if you are non-violently demonstrating BU is correct that you still may pay a heavy price. You need to decide before you demonstrate: how important this issue you're protesting is, how far you're willing to take your protests and what you may be risking in doing so. Then make preparations accordingly. All Western countries fear losing the support of their middle class, tax paying, citizens. To the extent that the Vietnam demonstrations succeeded it was because they were able to elicit "police riots" in response to what many felt were mostly non-violent (if not legal) demonstrations and swing public opinion. Of course, the release of the Pentagon Papers, which credibly confirmed \what many of the demonstrators had been saying of U.S. goals and involvement in S.E. Asia, didn't hurt either. steve From ravage at ssz.com Sat Jul 21 13:39:32 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:39:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: G8, issues, and familiarity Message-ID: CNN's poll is asking "Are you familiar with the issues behind the G8 summit". 58% said "No". Perhaps the protesting will help motivate more to educate themselves. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sat Jul 21 15:51:47 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:51:47 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: <093e77eb6345e94171d4fcf4be1db484@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: "Anonymous" wrote: > And so you propose that the protestors > travelled hundreds of miles, putting > themselves in direct danger of physical > harm, simply for fun? Yup. Though I'd disagree with the "in direct danger of physical harm" part. Only the most foolish or intoxicated rioters are right up front. Rioting at the WTO or whatever is statistically safer than running with the bulls at Pamplona and the looting is MUCH better. By the way, running with the bulls is something that folks also travel hundreds, even thousands, of miles to do). > Certainly the UofM riots don't > illustrate that mindset... I think you're wrong; they got the same essentials right: bait the cops, overturn cars and burn shit. > I would submit that you have no > idea what the protestors actual > motivations are. I have a very good idea, you're just to ideologically fixated to see the obvious correctness of it. S a n d y From jya at pipeline.com Sat Jul 21 16:01:39 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 16:01:39 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <20010721141243.B10338@cluebot.com> References: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Declan: >The problem with this analysis is that he does not have to be the >main commercial beneficiary for the charges to stick. But, to repeat, why the worker and not his bosses? Is this a way for Adobe/FBI/DoJ to signal the interest of its own bosses? And why are the protests limited to Adobe when the FBI and DoJ are doing the dirty work -- well, actually, low-level FBI and DoJ? Oops, that's right, don't fuck with workers-pissed- at-their-bosses who have the guns which they'd like to turn upstairs. 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Think Dot Com First!* If you have considered building a web site sometime in the future, you should reserve your dot com name today. Once you have your own dot com name, you will be able to use it for a matching web site address (www,YourName,com) later on. *Note: You will still require your ISP to host your email box. A dot com name ensures that you keep your email and web address no matter which ISP you are with. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 21 16:28:22 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 16:28:22 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010718093415.00841790@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3B59ADA6.27841.12ED9EB@localhost> On 18 Jul 2001, at 18:56, wrote: David Honig wrote: > > 1. encrypted data is indisttinguishable from uniformly distributed noise Eugene Leitl > Yes, but which natural data sources have that signature? Using the methods of arithemetic encoding, a uniformly distributed signal can be given any signature one desires. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 21 16:28:22 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 16:28:22 -0700 Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B59ADA6.25566.12ED9E1@localhost> -- On 18 Jul 2001, at 8:07, Ray Dillinger wrote: > *sigh*. I will not use a stego system unless I write it first and > my recipient has the only other copy. Because it's a matter of > keeping the *method* secret, that's really the only way. In principle, it should be possible to write a stego program that is undetectable, provided your enemy has no better models of noise sources in the medium than you have. As far as I know, no one has done this. It is probably easier to do this with sound than with video, as order and randomness in sound somewhat easier to specify. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG HLOnPv9zJA1q2Zr41Wx5MnpkvxVvkMotqjAxljYd 4xbdXut1GvHrT4ieHcWQ6Rs03UdDGm5f7o9Ch7CrS From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Sat Jul 21 14:35:14 2001 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 16:35:14 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <093e77eb6345e94171d4fcf4be1db484@remailer.xganon.com> > If we all look back to our younger > days, I think we can see a much more plausible explanation for their > actions. Hell raising. > > For certain people at certain ages, it's FUN to riot, throw things at the > cops, trash stores, overturn cars and burn stuff. It is exactly the real > lack of coherent messages from the "protestors" that supports this obvious > conclusion. At the University of Michigan, the riots were basically the > same, only the justification was more banal--the outlawing of booze on > campus. > > It should be obvious that these riots are not so much ideologically > motivated (though that's the pseudo-rational), but testosterone motivated. > Most of these monkeys couldn't spell anarchy let alone understand it > philosophically. Let's not confuse the cover story with the real > motive--fucking stuff up for the fun of it. And so you propose that the protestors travelled hundreds of miles, putting themselves in direct danger of physical harm, simply for fun? Certainly the UofM riots don't illustrate that mindset... I would submit that you have no idea what the protestors actual motivations are. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 21 16:48:14 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 16:48:14 -0700 Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <59b4ab0fa120609037ad0b48604e20b2@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <3B59B24E.12605.1410C56@localhost> -- James A. Donald: > > We know the spooks do bad things. They have done bad things to people > > who post on this list. We also know commies do bad things. > > > > The argument I object to is that all the bad behavior, the > > authoritarianism, the crimes, the repression, that we saw from the new > > left during the seventies is somehow the fault of the spooks, and > > somehow not the fault of the people who were doing it. Faustine: > Point well taken. But the same could be said of the "crimes and bad > behavior" at Waco and Ruby Ridge; it might have been their fault, but > they sure as hell didn't deserve what ultimately happened to them any > more than the commies did. Aryan nation was destroyed by the feds. Black panthers were destroyed by the black panthers. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG S0OsOWCmZlXsQxA3vOqVNy48twxfCqAtk3mQhxxw 4qP/2jAlvTkWMWpRDxAvRHTx4bzkM/LViaYeM56b8 From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 17:19:44 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:19:44 -0700 Subject: Ensuring that LSBs in Stego "look random enough" In-Reply-To: <3B59ADA6.25566.12ED9E1@localhost> References: <3B59ADA6.25566.12ED9E1@localhost> Message-ID: At 4:28 PM -0700 7/21/01, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- >On 18 Jul 2001, at 8:07, Ray Dillinger wrote: >> *sigh*. I will not use a stego system unless I write it first and >> my recipient has the only other copy. Because it's a matter of >> keeping the *method* secret, that's really the only way. > >In principle, it should be possible to write a stego program that is >undetectable, provided your enemy has no better models of noise >sources in the medium than you have. As far as I know, no one >has done this. > >It is probably easier to do this with sound than with video, as order >and randomness in sound somewhat easier to specify. Take a set of bits generated by a good PRNG. Use this set for the LSB of GIFs or other noncompressed image files. Anyone analyzing the LSBs sees a set with various spectral and statistical properties. To send a signal, a message, XOR the message with this set of PRNG-generated bits. One's recipient already has a copy of the PRNG-generated bits. (Remember, stego is not the same as public key crypto, so Alice and Bob can arrange in advance to use a particular entry point in an PRNG, or an entry point in a one-time pad, etc.) The resulting LSBs will have, "in almost cases," a set of spectral and statistical properties nearly identical with the original LSBs. Unless the message bits are somehow correlated with the PRNG-generated bits, the distribution will pass all tests for "randomness" that the orginal PRNG-generated bits passed. This is a kind of variant on von Neumann's scheme for ensuring even distributions of heads and tails in a message stream even with coins weighted unevenly towards heads and tails. The approach can be extended to have the distribution of LSBs look like that of a camera source, or whatever normal images or sound files typically have. (In this case, Alice and Bob exchange sets of LSBs from camera/microphone sources. Messages are then XORed with these sets. All statistical tests produce the same results as original camera/microphone sources produce.) (A "gotcha" left as an exercise if if the image or microphone source produces fixed patterns of bits in certain places. For example, if every image file begins with 16 fixed bits, or somesuch. In this case, XORing these fixed bits with the message bits would NOT preserve the statistical properties.) --Tim May --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From njohnson at interl.net Sat Jul 21 15:27:26 2001 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:27:26 -0500 Subject: Condit Has an Alibi References: <3B599054.BA0A7097@ssz.com> Message-ID: <028401c11234$52d6e920$d865a13f@moms> Is it just me, or did anybody consider the fact that someone else was using her laptop ? -Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: ; Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: CDR: Condit Has an Alibi > http://www.msnbc.com/news/603082.asp?cp1=1#BODY > -- > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > B.A. Behrend > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From decoy at iki.fi Sat Jul 21 07:27:43 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:27:43 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY? > >Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire? > >Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not all of us. In fact, if you look at the statistics, e.g. we Finnish people are actually quite *well* armed. Just not with handguns, but hunting rifles. If something like that were to happen here, there would be no shortage of firepower. However, over here the fact that they are torching your property isn't an excuse to shoot -- if you manage to kill one, it's murder, and probably not even in mitigating circumstances. The same applies doublefold to defending yourself against police brutality and co. People usually don't think about using firearms to defend themselves, even if they happen to own some. They know they'll get nailed for it, no matter how righteous the shooting might seem to be. Dunno... Seeing what went down in Gothenburg, and the shit that's going on now in Genoa, I too am beginning to think there is something very wrong with all this... >The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name. Agreed. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From adam at globalimpactmarketing.net Sat Jul 21 17:28:55 2001 From: adam at globalimpactmarketing.net (adam at globalimpactmarketing.net) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:28:55 Subject: Realtors Make More Money Message-ID: <200107211635.f6LGZtG10692@server1.mgci.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7859 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 15:11:54 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:11:54 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <20010721141243.B10338@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010721181029.021765f0@mail.well.com> At 04:01 PM 7/21/01 -0700, John Young wrote: >And why are the protests limited to Adobe when the FBI and >DoJ are doing the dirty work -- well, actually, low-level FBI >and DoJ? Oops, that's right, don't fuck with workers-pissed- >at-their-bosses who have the guns which they'd like to turn >upstairs. Agreed. In the end, it's not Adobe that's the problem. Many companies like the DMCA and many will use it to seek advantage in the market. Targeting Adobe misses the larger picture. A unanimous Congress enacted it and a grinning President Clinton signed it. They should be the proper targets of protest. -Declan From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 21 18:27:41 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:27:41 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:47 PM 7/21/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >As Declan and others have said, this may be the last time a DefCon is >held in the U.S. (Not that other countries are necessarily better. >Attendees in Canada may face arrest by the Mounties for hate crimes, >for violating the Teale-Homulka censorship, for working for a >magazine which has broken Canadian laws, etc. And as the Henson case >showed, the Canadian SWAT ninjas are perfectly willing to do a "take >down" when their bosses to the south order it.) > >--Tim May All this argues for anonymously coded projects, etc. But that means you can't get credit for novel research. This is one of the ways that the DCMA is counter to historically unimpeded research & innovation ---Its not rational for profs sans tenure to work without credit. Publish or perish, From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 16:30:23 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:30:23 -0500 Subject: OPT: Slashdot | Unsafe At Any Runlevel Message-ID: <3B5A108F.3F1CD025@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/21/2137243.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Sat Jul 21 15:31:23 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:31:23 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444B3@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found DUTY TO DIAGNOSE.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: DUTY TO DIAGNOSE", was sent from Dr.Christopher Kent and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Jul 21 15:38:18 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists, Message-ID: <21853b3efba39be5a8dddd0567302356@freemail.cotse.com> On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: Jim wrote: > Speaking for myself, I'm not "owned" by anyone. I obey state and federal > laws though, if that's what you mean. >>Even when they're unconstitutional I bet... >>Some American. ..so does this mean you're going to be the first to share with the readership exactly *which* state and federal laws you break on a regular basis? LOL ridiculous. > You don't need a gun to enforce ownership, what do you think contract and property law is all about. >>Which is worthless without the explicit and well advertised threat of >>violence. See G8 demonstrations today for a explicit example. "all power flows from the barrel of a gun?" Maybe so. But most people who sign contracts are more motivated by the threat of lawsuits, jail and fines than the direct threat of violence. > Sometimes words or a fist do just as well... What any of this has to do > with supporting the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is totally unclear. >>See G8 today. Nothing I see there really points to personal disarmament being a wise course of action. > By the way, why don't you think people have a right to defend their own > lives and property? >Don't the people demonstrating have a right to defend their lives and >property? Absolutely, no doubt about it. So how does it follow that this somehow makes it okay to harm other people and destroy their property without being held accountable for it by the people themselves? Legitimate protest is one thing, but the problem is, people who are out to "fuck shit up" aren't too discriminate about their targets. If your business was in the middle of a riot zone, would you just choose the "roll over and die" option? Somehow I think not. >>Their claim is it is being abused and destroyed. There are too many disparate groups under the umbrella of "anti- globalization" to be able to sum it up into a single claim like that. Abused and destroyed? What, how, when, by whom? How can you hope to make policy around some vague generalization. More analysis, less rhetoric. >>Where is >>their spokesperson at the G8? Where is there forum? That's what NGOs are for. There are some interesting books about their growing importance and the role of technology in making it happen that are really encouraging...have you seen a book by David Ronfeldt and John Arquilla called "The Zapatista Social Netwar in Mexico"? I don't know if you can get a online copy somewhere but it's worth a look. > When I'm attacked, why shouldn't I fight back? >>Hypocrite. >>Freedom for me, not for thee... Where did that come from, I believe 100% in the right to be left alone. Anyone on this earth can do whatever they want, but attack me and be prepared to PAY: what could be more honest and straightforward than that. It's just insane to expect people to put themselves at the mercy of anyone who comes along: what are you really saying here, feel free to fill me in! A great place to start might be defining "anti-globalism", the reasons behind the need for violent indiscriminate protest, and how any of that bears a relation to the second amendment. Sheesh... ~Faustine. From sarahr at msn.com Sat Jul 21 09:39:55 2001 From: sarahr at msn.com (sarahr at msn.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:39:55 +0200 Subject: Newsletter #54 Message-ID: <200107211639.SAA07814@mail.yahoo.com> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Welcome To UltimateTeens The only site dedicated 100% to pure teen action -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.hardcopy.com/ultimateteens (Signup today for only $1.95 for 3 days FULL ACCESS) How about HORNY SCHOOLGIRLS Fucking Sucking and Swallowing Your CUM. Well this is whats in store for you at UltimateTeens. These spunky teens just can't keep their clothes on and their hands off their pussies. Perky, natural breasts! Tight Virgin Pussies... These sex kittens will do the filthiest things and are always eagar to please. The cutest prettiest little angels just this side of legal age, sucking, screwing, and spreading their juicy pussies in the most taboo sex acts ever. * 150,000+ of Sexy High Quality Pictures * 10,000+ Hardcore Teen XXX Videos * Teen Cheerleaders * Sexy Student Amateurs * Fresh First Time Girls * Live Sexshows * Talk live with these Teen Centerfolds ! * Kinky interactive fantasies ! * Erotic stories * Weekly site updates * Unlimited Access ! http://www.hardcopy.com/ultimateteens (Signup today and get 100% free access to our schoolgirl gallery) This message was sent to cypherpunks at ssz.com . If you do not wish to receive more emails from me, just click on the link below. http://www.violationreport.com/cgi-bin/remove.cgi From evan at indymedia.org Sat Jul 21 15:39:56 2001 From: evan at indymedia.org (imc-news) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RIGHT NOW Police Raiding IMC in Genova Message-ID: Hey this is a story you might like to cover. Cops in Genova are currently in the process of raiding and conviscating computers, disks, tapes, and harrassing people at the Indymedia Center in Genova right now. The web radio station, www.radiogap.net is still live with reports of the cops in teh center and some people are still online explaining what is happening over irc. Here's some of logs from the irc: update 23:17 GMT July 21: Police have apparently entered the Radio Gap studios, reports have come in that police are searching people inside of the IMC-center. A cell phone report indicates that people have been split into two groups inside the IMC and are being agressive. We have conflicting reports as to what is actually transpiring. Those inside the center are requesting that people contact media and governments to dennounce the activities ly what is taking place right now because tense situation. ---------- There are also 5 European MP's on site who are denouncing the action as illegal. in solidarity, evan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 18:46:27 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:46:27 -0700 Subject: "Engineer for Haloid Corp. arrested for producing circumvention device" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 6:27 PM -0700 7/21/01, David Honig wrote: >At 01:47 PM 7/21/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >>As Declan and others have said, this may be the last time a DefCon is >>held in the U.S. (Not that other countries are necessarily better. >>Attendees in Canada may face arrest by the Mounties for hate crimes, >>for violating the Teale-Homulka censorship, for working for a >>magazine which has broken Canadian laws, etc. And as the Henson case >>showed, the Canadian SWAT ninjas are perfectly willing to do a "take >>down" when their bosses to the south order it.) >> >>--Tim May > >All this argues for anonymously coded projects, etc. But that >means you can't get credit for novel research. This is one >of the ways that the DCMA is counter to historically unimpeded >research & innovation ---Its not rational for profs sans tenure >to work without credit. DCMA, it seems to me, has always been about "freezing things in place." Large corporations like nothing more than having a powerful central government freeze the status quo. As I have written about several times, large chip companies _say_ they dislike the bureaucratic hoops they are forced to jump through, with OSHA and Labor and Justice and EPA and all the rest. But the fact is that a big chip company can easily hire the floors of people it takes to satisfy the bureaucrats, but a small upstart competitor cannot handle the blizzard of papers. And big companies love it when little competitors are frozen out. The DCMA is just another way to freeze out innovation. Those who try to do nearly any research on copy protection, crypto, locks, software tools face the likelihood that they are violating the DCMA in various ways. Hey, even *I* am in violation of the DCMA. Had the DCMA been in effect in the 1950s, the Xerox Corporation and its execs and engineers probably would have faced charges for producing a "circumvention device" for enabling copyright violators. What, really, is the difference between a Xerox machine and something that allows copies of electronic text? (Both have alternate uses besides pirating. Backups, for example.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at ssz.com Sat Jul 21 16:47:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:47:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107212323.TAA27618@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > "Neil Johnson" wrote: > # > # Is it just me, or did anybody consider the fact > # that someone else was using her laptop ? > > Spending three hours screwing around on her laptop? > > Printing out a coupon for ice cream? Great smoke screen. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bob at black.org Sat Jul 21 18:50:20 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:50:20 -0700 Subject: Adobe's Dentures (was Re: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday)) Message-ID: <3B5A315B.F4EC5BD7@black.org> >The nightmares, which continue to this day, were just the start of a whole >new deck of fears the family had to deal with once they returned to Los >Altos after their month retreat. Chuck's insecurities about his safety >invaded all aspects of his life. The 6-foot, 1-inch, 220-pound Chuck now >scares easily. Russians are usually skinnier. You think DS won't have post-traumatic fun? Nice of Chuckie to jail a guy with two small kids. Guess he didn't learn much about the appropriate use of force. Obviously protesters doing anything *physically* threatening is just stupid, opposite to the 'appropriate use of force' principle, and generally harmful for getting this engineer out of immediate hassle. As stupid as trying to toss a heavy metal cylinder at a riot cop who'se got a head shot at close range. From Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net Sat Jul 21 17:54:03 2001 From: Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net (Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:54:03 -0600 Subject: Press Release Message-ID: <200172168043cypherpunks@algebra.com> For Immediate Release Incline Village, Nevada Contact Corporate Communications www.sugarpinellc.com Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC is proud to announce 4 additional services, Sports Memorabilia, Hair Raisers, Financial Services and Worlds-Best-4 the worlds largest virtual shopping mall featuring over 2.2 million products! Save time! Save money! Make money!!! These services and products are now available to everyone. 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From Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net Sat Jul 21 17:54:04 2001 From: Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net (Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:54:04 -0600 Subject: Press Release Message-ID: <200172168044cypherpunks@toad.com> For Immediate Release Incline Village, Nevada Contact Corporate Communications www.sugarpinellc.com Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC is proud to announce 4 additional services, Sports Memorabilia, Hair Raisers, Financial Services and Worlds-Best-4 the worlds largest virtual shopping mall featuring over 2.2 million products! Save time! Save money! Make money!!! These services and products are now available to everyone. To view these tremendous opportunities, please visit our website. Sports Memorabilia may be viewed simply by clicking on its front-page banner. Hair Raisers may be viewed by visiting our web site, www.sugarpinellc.com, and select our associates嚙 link. Our Financial Services is linked and bannered on our home page. As you all may already know, Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC is at its heart an asset hosting company. Please don嚙緣 forget to look at our Asset Gallery to see some outstanding business and investment opportunities, as well as collectables and real estate. Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC would like to extend its sincere thanks and appreciation to all! Please visit us at our web site at: www.sugarpinellc.com. Corporate Communications: Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC Mr. Charles J. Armstrong II or Ms. Denise Pavlo Phone: 775-832-2552 E-Mail: info at sugarpinellc.com To be removed from our e-mail list, reply to this e-mail with "REMOVE" in the subject line of your reply. From Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net Sat Jul 21 17:54:04 2001 From: Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net (Sugarpine.Sierra.West at greatbasin.net) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:54:04 -0600 Subject: Press Release Message-ID: <200172168044cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> For Immediate Release Incline Village, Nevada Contact Corporate Communications www.sugarpinellc.com Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC is proud to announce 4 additional services, Sports Memorabilia, Hair Raisers, Financial Services and Worlds-Best-4 the worlds largest virtual shopping mall featuring over 2.2 million products! Save time! Save money! Make money!!! These services and products are now available to everyone. To view these tremendous opportunities, please visit our website. Sports Memorabilia may be viewed simply by clicking on its front-page banner. Hair Raisers may be viewed by visiting our web site, www.sugarpinellc.com, and select our associates嚙 link. Our Financial Services is linked and bannered on our home page. As you all may already know, Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC is at its heart an asset hosting company. Please don嚙緣 forget to look at our Asset Gallery to see some outstanding business and investment opportunities, as well as collectables and real estate. Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC would like to extend its sincere thanks and appreciation to all! Please visit us at our web site at: www.sugarpinellc.com. Corporate Communications: Sugarpine Sierra West, LLC Mr. Charles J. Armstrong II or Ms. Denise Pavlo Phone: 775-832-2552 E-Mail: info at sugarpinellc.com To be removed from our e-mail list, reply to this e-mail with "REMOVE" in the subject line of your reply. From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Sat Jul 21 16:03:27 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:03:27 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime Message-ID: <2a90fe59a4972698c325129429af2dc2@freedom.gmsociety.org> On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, John Young wrote: > Declan: > > >The problem with this analysis is that he does not have to be the > >main commercial beneficiary for the charges to stick. > > But, to repeat, why the worker and not his bosses? Is this a way > for Adobe/FBI/DoJ to signal the interest of its own bosses? Very good question. > And why are the protests limited to Adobe when the FBI and > DoJ are doing the dirty work -- well, actually, low-level FBI > and DoJ? Oops, that's right, don't fuck with workers-pissed- > at-their-bosses who have the guns which they'd like to turn > upstairs. The protests aren't limited to Adobe. In fact, some of the protests occuring Monday are taking place at DoJ buildings. On Friday, a cypherpunk and a 2600 member crashed Ashcroft's press conference at Versign, and put copies of the EFF's letter to Ashcroft into the hands of nearly all of the reporters present. The DoJ is not being ignored. As for the organized mass rallies, Adobe is first on the protest list, however, since it is clear that they are behind the FBI and DoJ's actions. And, if Adobe were to withdraw its complaint, it is likely that charges would be dropped and Dmitry freed. If Adobe withdraws its complaint and Dmitry is not returned to his family, we will turn our attention full-force toward the DoJ. "There is perhaps nothing quite as distressing as the unintended consequences of well-intentioned government." --Ashcroft. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 21 19:09:37 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:09:37 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010721190937.00866db0@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:46 PM 7/21/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > >> All this argues for anonymously coded projects, etc. But that >> means you can't get credit for novel research. This is one >> of the ways that the DCMA is counter to historically unimpeded >> research & innovation ---Its not rational for profs sans tenure >> to work without credit. >> >> Publish or perish, > >While it is of little real-world usefulness, it should be noted that such >annonymous publication can retain credit towards an individual author by >being published under a publicly published yet anonymous public key. > That doesn't work when you tell your department that you are the author associated with some (formerly) anonymous key. Yes, it does work in the world of building reputations associated with (anonymous or claimed-not-anonymous) keys, but not when you need meatspace credit --give the meat named "Prof Joe" tenure credit for work X. Cheers, From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 21 19:15:59 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:15:59 -0700 Subject: "Engineer for Haloid Corp. arrested for producing circumvention device" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010721191559.008681e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:46 PM 7/21/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >Had the DCMA been in effect in the 1950s, the Xerox Corporation and >its execs and engineers probably would have faced charges for >producing a "circumvention device" for enabling copyright violators. >What, really, is the difference between a Xerox machine and something >that allows copies of electronic text? > >(Both have alternate uses besides pirating. Backups, for example.) (Had the DCMA existed earlier:) Some publisher would have jailed the dude who noticed a property of selenium films exposed to light and applied it to copying documents. Even if he invented it in a foreign country. Reality is certainly more twisted than fiction. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 17:18:20 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:18:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: DMCA Protest on the Capitol steps, AUSTIN, Texas, MONDAY, 11am-12:30pm (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:49:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dkr. Armand Geddyn" Reply-To: austin-cpunks at ssz.com To: austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: DMCA Protest on the Capitol steps, AUSTIN, Texas, MONDAY, 11am-12:30pm "DMCA Protest on the Capitol steps, AUSTIN, Texas, MONDAY, 11am-12:30pm" FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Dkr. Armand Geddyn Michael Badnarik 2002 Libertarian Campaign LAS VEGAS - On July 16, the American FBI arrested Russian citizen and PhD candidate Dmitry Sklyarov, after his presentation on encryption techniques and standards of Adobe's popular "eBook" format. Sklyarov is the first programmer to be arrested under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), and is currently being held in a Las Vegas prison, awaiting extradition to California to face charges filed by Adobe. He has reportedly been denied contact with his employer, peers, or family. Sklyarov is, in short, a political prisoner as a result of the U.S.'s draconian copyright and intellectual property laws. What is the DMCA? Public Law No. 105-304 was signed into law by Congress October 28, 1998, and is often referred to as "the DMCA" or "the WIPO." In short, it is a fundamentally flawed and grossly unconstitutional act which, in part, makes it a federal crime to conduct and present otherwise legitimate cryptographic research. What does this mean? Imagine a toy secret decoder ring. Someone explains to you how to decode a secret message using that secret decoder ring. That person can be arrested for "trafficking in a product designed to circumvent copyright protection measures," if Adobe uses this simple encryption to "protect" its eBook content (which it does -- Adobe specifies ROT13 as part of its encryption standard). This is exactly what happened to Dmitry Sklyarov, when he explained a method for decrypting eBooks for legitimate, personal use. Another example is if Congress had passed a law banning the possession or sale of paper clips, hair pins and wire clothes hangers, because such insidious technologies could be used to pick locks, escape from handcuffs, or steal cars. In fact, they may as well have passed a law making it illegal to simply TALK about picking locks with hair pins. What can you do? Join Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik (www.badnarik.org), the Ministry of Truth, and the Austin Cypherpunks on MONDAY, July 23, at the Capitol steps to show your support for Dmitry Sklyarov's plight and your opposition to the grossly unconstitutional DMCA. We expect there to be TV news representatives on the scene, so please be prepared to explain the effects of the DMCA concisely and succinctly. Where can I learn more? Read up on the DMCA Legislative History, at: http://www.hrrc.org/html/DMCA-leg-hist.html Read the Department of Justice's press release: http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Sklyarov/20010717_doj_sklyarov_pr.html Read the Slashdot and Pigdog Journal reports, at: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/17/130226&mode=thread http://www.pigdog.org/auto/scary_tech/link/2155.html Michael Badnarik is expected to speak on this and other Libertarian issues on Austin's KLBJ 590 AM radio, Saturday, July 21, between 9 and 10pm. -- Dkr. Armand Geddyn | ageddyn at minitru.org "You can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than you can with just a kind word." - Ben Franklin From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Jul 21 17:22:00 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:22:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: G8, issues, and familiarity In-Reply-To: <567169e5bfd393e2d741a1262953df68@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >CNN's poll is asking "Are you familiar with the issues behind the G8 > >summit". > >58% said "No". > >Perhaps the protesting will help motivate more to educate themselves. > > > True, that would be great. But how many of the remaining 42 percent > consider themselves educated, but are nevertheless content to mindlessly > repeat mickey mouse platitudes and propaganda spoon-fed to them from on > high, and who couldn't pass a rudimentary econ 101 test if their lives > depended on it? That's a pretty simplistic view: If they don't know then it's their fault for not being educated. If they claim they do know then it must be platitudes and propoganda. > More analysis, less rhetoric. Analysis is rhetoric, just better organized. Lies, damn lies, statistics. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Jul 21 16:23:09 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime Message-ID: <200107212323.TAA27618@www3.aa.psiweb.com> "Neil Johnson" wrote: # # Is it just me, or did anybody consider the fact # that someone else was using her laptop ? Spending three hours screwing around on her laptop? Printing out a coupon for ice cream? ---- Jimmy Crick wrote: # # http://www.msnbc.com/news/603082.asp?cp1=1#BODY That's just fascinating, Choate. Only no one has accused Condit of personally making Levy disappear. No one. ---- Notes from Italy: the person who shot the protester was not a regular cop. He was a 20-year-old doing "national service". http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,30155,00.html # # Police said Saturday they were looking into bringing manslaughter # charges against the policeman who fired at Giuliani. They did # not release the officer's name but said he was a 20-year-old # drafted into Italy's Carabinieri, a unit that performs police # and military functions. Police said the officer was in shock # and had been hospitalized. ---- http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,30163,00.html # # IBM Develops Annoying "Passenger" to Keep Drivers Alert # # DETROIT - You're driving along and suddenly a voice starts # shouting personal questions at you: # # "Where did you go on your first date? What's your favorite song? # What's your mother's maiden name? Where'd you go to school? What's # your favorite food? Who won the ball game?" # # If you don't answer quickly enough, correctly or at all, then # the fun really begins. Windows start opening and closing, a buzzer # might sound and worse, you might get spritzed with a stream of # cold water. # # It's a cross between Stephen King's maniacal car Christine and # the yapping disembodied voice of Ann Sothern in the never-lamented # TV show "My Mother the Car." # # Indeed, IBM's "artificial passenger" is designed to be as annoying # as possible all in the name of safety, says David Nahamoo, IBM # senior manager for human language technology. # # "Essentially, the technology and the system relies on # conversational interaction as a mechanism for keeping a person # alert," says Nahamoo. But can you hump it? From psicologos at 007mundo.com Sat Jul 21 17:25:47 2001 From: psicologos at 007mundo.com (Psic鏊ogos Colombianos) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:25:47 -0500 Subject: cypherpunks: Participa en vigilia para defender la vida! Message-ID: Por favor, cypherpunks, toma nota de este mensaje urgente: Laicos colombianos lanzan gran vigilia para Defender la vida y la familia Como una respuesta a las medidas legales que han favorecido al aborto, la eutanasia y la bigamia en el pa嚙編, numerosas asociaciones laicales de Bogot嚙 han convocado a una gran "Vigilia por la Vida y la Familia" para la pr嚙綞ima semana. Esperamos tu participaci嚙緯, cypherpunks, con tu presencia, reenv嚙緻 de este mensaje y oraci嚙緯. Esta iniciativa de los laicos de la Arquidi嚙箱esis de Bogot嚙 se realizar嚙 en la Plaza de Bol嚙緞ar el 24 de julio de 6:30 a 8:30 p.m. y ser嚙 presidida por el Cardenal Pedro Rubiano S嚙箴nz, Arzobispo local. Entre los organizadores destacan la Fundaci嚙緯 Vida y Verdad `Vive', el Movimiento de la Renovaci嚙緯 Carism嚙緣ica Cat嚙締ica, el Consejo Arquidiocesano de Laicos, la Fundaci嚙緯 Derecho a Nacer, el Encuentro de Novios, Comuni嚙緯 y Liberaci嚙緯, Equipos de Nuestra Se嚙緻ra, Cooperadores Salesianos, la Fundaci嚙緯 Cultura de la Vida, Movimiento Secular Luis Variara, Laicos por Colombia, Movimientos Juveniles y los grupos de Pastoral Familiar de varias parroquias de la ciudad. Seg嚙緯 los responsables, se escogi嚙 esa fecha por ser el d嚙窮 establecido para la entrada en vigencia del nuevo C嚙範igo Penal que incluye una despenalizaci嚙緯 parcial del aborto. El objetivo de la vigilia, indicaron, es "que se acreciente en el Pueblo de Dios que peregrina en la Arquidi嚙箱esis de Bogot嚙, reunido en oraci嚙緯 a Dios, Creador y amante de la vida, el compromiso en favor de la causa de la vida y de la familia como un aporte en la consecuci嚙緯 de la anhelada paz". Adem嚙編, "que se reavive en la opini嚙緯 p嚙箭lica la conciencia sobre estos valores fundamentales; y, que se manifieste, en el 嚙練bito de la participaci嚙緯 democr嚙緣ica, la disconformidad ante decisiones estatales que han menoscabado la protecci嚙緯 integral debida por los poderes y la sociedad a la vida humana y a la familia". En este sentido, los organizadores agregaron la urgencia de "emprender acciones de profundo impacto en la conciencia colectiva y en la sensibilidad p嚙箭lica para renovar el compromiso, tambi嚙緯, con los derechos de los embriones y fetos, de los ancianos, enfermos incurables y de los agonizantes, dentro del empe嚙緻 por respetar, proteger y servir la vida de todo ser humano". Las mismas fuentes indicaron que la vigilia "ser嚙 un momento de oraci嚙緯 para poner en manos de Mar嚙窮, Madre de los vivientes, la causa de la vida, de ni嚙緻s a quienes se impide nacer, de pobres a quienes se hace dif嚙箱il vivir, de las v嚙箱timas de masacres, secuestros, desplazamientos y de otras formas de inhumana violencia, de ancianos y enfermos muertos a causa de la indiferencia o de una presunta piedad, de matrimonios desunidos y hogares destruidos por el divorcio". 嚙踝蕭嚙窯嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙 Mira el asesinato de los inocentes: http://www.aciprensa.com/foto-abo.htm 嚙踝蕭嚙窯嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭,嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙踝蕭嚙 Por favor dale 嚙磋EENVIAR嚙 para repartir este mensaje entre tus amigos y conocidos. 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Aprobado por el 105 congreso base de las normativas Internacionales sobre SPAM, un e-mail no podr嚙 ser considerado SPAM mientras incluya una forma de ser removido. Si usted desea ser removido de nuestra base de datos en forma definitiva por favor haga clic o env嚙箴 email a: psicologos at 007mundo.com y escriba "borrar" en el encabezado del mensaje. From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Jul 21 19:32:52 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:32:52 -0700 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) References: <3B59C7F2.64E80357@black.org> <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> <20010721222652.C18784@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <004201c11256$9beef220$d2972040@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Declan McCullagh" To: "Black Unicorn" Cc: "Subcommander Bob" ; Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) > On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:43:08PM -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: > > Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with > > violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. > > Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do > > in Adobe's place? (I know you are suddenly tempted to come up with a witty > > reply. It's a rhetorical question, smartass). > > All this may be true, but it fails to recognize that most > geek-protests (and I have covered many) don't result in high > turnouts. See this anti-DMCA protest, which drew eight marchers: > http://www.mccullagh.org/image/7/dmca-protesters-1.html > > Perhaps 15 were marching in front of the Supreme Court when the CDA > was being heard. Is the glass half empty, half full or 100% in excess of optimum volume, Mr. McCullagh? From a3495 at cotse.com Sat Jul 21 16:53:27 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: G8, issues, and familiarity Message-ID: <567169e5bfd393e2d741a1262953df68@freemail.cotse.com> Jim wrote: >CNN's poll is asking "Are you familiar with the issues behind the G8 >summit". >58% said "No". >Perhaps the protesting will help motivate more to educate themselves. True, that would be great. But how many of the remaining 42 percent consider themselves educated, but are nevertheless content to mindlessly repeat mickey mouse platitudes and propaganda spoon-fed to them from on high, and who couldn't pass a rudimentary econ 101 test if their lives depended on it? More analysis, less rhetoric. ~Faustine. From measl at mfn.org Sat Jul 21 18:28:48 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:28:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists, In-Reply-To: <21853b3efba39be5a8dddd0567302356@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > "all power flows from the barrel of a gun?" Maybe so. But most people who > sign contracts are more motivated by the threat of lawsuits, jail and fines > than the direct threat of violence. What you are missing here is that the threat of jail and fines are only a threat *beacuse* of the threat of the gun which stands as the alternative, i.e., submit to our sentence of jail, or we will shoot you. > Legitimate protest is one > thing, but the problem is, people who are out to "fuck shit up" aren't too > discriminate about their targets. If your business was in the middle of a > riot zone, would you just choose the "roll over and die" option? Somehow I > think not. Agreed, 100% Paradoxically, I also agree that the "fucking shit up" is often necessary to generate suffucient public recognition of the issues at hand. No, I don't have an answer to this paradox. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Sat Jul 21 18:46:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:46:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > All this argues for anonymously coded projects, etc. But that > means you can't get credit for novel research. This is one > of the ways that the DCMA is counter to historically unimpeded > research & innovation ---Its not rational for profs sans tenure > to work without credit. > > Publish or perish, While it is of little real-world usefulness, it should be noted that such annonymous publication can retain credit towards an individual author by being published under a publicly published yet anonymous public key. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 19:26:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:26:52 -0400 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574>; from unicorn@schloss.li on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:43:08PM -0700 References: <3B59C7F2.64E80357@black.org> <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010721222652.C18784@cluebot.com> On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:43:08PM -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: > Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with > violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. > Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do > in Adobe's place? (I know you are suddenly tempted to come up with a witty > reply. It's a rhetorical question, smartass). All this may be true, but it fails to recognize that most geek-protests (and I have covered many) don't result in high turnouts. See this anti-DMCA protest, which drew eight marchers: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/7/dmca-protesters-1.html Perhaps 15 were marching in front of the Supreme Court when the CDA was being heard. Oh, this might be larger, and I suspect it will be. And it makes sense to consider Adobe's mindset. But the Black Bloc (or the Black Panthers) this isn't. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Sat Jul 21 22:31:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:31:29 -0700 Subject: "Engineer for Haloid Corp. arrested for producing circumvention device" In-Reply-To: <20010721223736.D18784@cluebot.com> References: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> <20010721223736.D18784@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 10:37 PM -0400 7/21/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 06:46:27PM -0700, Tim May wrote: >> Had the DCMA been in effect in the 1950s, the Xerox Corporation and >> its execs and engineers probably would have faced charges for >> producing a "circumvention device" for enabling copyright violators. >> What, really, is the difference between a Xerox machine and something >> that allows copies of electronic text? >> >> (Both have alternate uses besides pirating. Backups, for example.) > >I realize Tim is making a general point, and I agree with his overall >analysis (it makes sense, how could I not?). > >But I'll play Devil's Advocate for a moment, and argue that the >DMCA does not make any distribution/sale of a circumvention device >verboten. It makes these three things illegal: Before we get to Declan's three things, let us all recall that the DCMA was cited by those who threatened Prof. Felten and his students and fellow researchers if they merely _presented_ their paper at the IHW. On to Declan's points: >`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of >circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that >effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in >a work or a portion thereof; Not to beat dead horse, but I think a compelling case could have been made in 1965, for instance, that nearly all uses of Xerox machines in public facilities were for circumventing copyright. At least this is what I saw nearly users doing with the Xerox machines in the libraries near my home and then at college. And of course there is the VCR. The "primarily designed or produced for" use of the Beta and VHS home machines in the late 70s was of course to tape t.v. shows and movies. (The Supremes accepted the unstoppability of the VCR, which had by the time they rendered a decision in Disney v. Sony become so ubiquitous that banning them would have caused a revolt. So the Supremes mumbled about time-shifting and alternate uses. The DCMA would probably not have allowed this "fig leaf"...and would have had the Sony engineers and execs facing jailing on _criminal_, not civil, charges.) > >`(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other >than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that >effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in >a work or a portion thereof; or One wonders how Prof. Felten's revelation of deep technical flaws in a cryptograhic scheme is construed to violate this clause. Was Felten in business to manufacture devices? Nope. No commercial role. In fact, pure science. (Well, not quite superstring theory, but applied cryptography.) > >`(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that >person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing >protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively >protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a >portion thereof. Felten and his co-workers were not "marketing" anything. It would be interesting to take another look at Disney v. Sony under the assumption that the DMCA was in place. The larger picture is of course that the Adobe/FBI bust is intended to have the desired chilling effect. My hunch is that Adobe will lose a small amount of business over this...but that this lost business will nevertheless dwarf the minuscule profits from their "e-books" micromarket. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 19:37:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:37:36 -0400 Subject: "Engineer for Haloid Corp. arrested for producing circumvention device" In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 06:46:27PM -0700 References: <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107212001.QAA21987@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.6.32.20010721182741.008588e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20010721223736.D18784@cluebot.com> On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 06:46:27PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Had the DCMA been in effect in the 1950s, the Xerox Corporation and > its execs and engineers probably would have faced charges for > producing a "circumvention device" for enabling copyright violators. > What, really, is the difference between a Xerox machine and something > that allows copies of electronic text? > > (Both have alternate uses besides pirating. Backups, for example.) I realize Tim is making a general point, and I agree with his overall analysis (it makes sense, how could I not?). But I'll play Devil's Advocate for a moment, and argue that the DMCA does not make any distribution/sale of a circumvention device verboten. It makes these three things illegal: `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; `(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or `(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof. That's broad, and unduly broad, but not as broad as it could be. -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 19:42:55 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:42:55 -0400 Subject: In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:11:27PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010721224255.E18784@cluebot.com> On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:11:27PM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > It should be obvious that these riots are not so much ideologically > motivated (though that's the pseudo-rational), but testosterone motivated. > Most of these monkeys couldn't spell anarchy let alone understand it > philosophically. Let's not confuse the cover story with the real > motive--fucking stuff up for the fun of it. Right. Moreover, from admittedly-incomplete news reports, this summit seems to have been plagued with a higher number and a higher percentage of "rioters" than previous gatherings. -Declan From jschultz at coin.org Sat Jul 21 21:26:48 2001 From: jschultz at coin.org (John Schultz) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 23:26:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107210825.EAA05955@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Dude, the Feds just arrested someone for "copyright violations" > when no complaint had been made. Dude, Adobe made a complaint about software produced by Sklyarov's employer, Elcomsoft. John Schultz jschultz at coin.org From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 20:27:58 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 23:27:58 -0400 Subject: FC: Italian police raid Genoa online journalist collective Message-ID: It's unclear what happened, but preliminary reports out of Genoa say that police armed with guns and search warrants raided "the headquarters of the umbrella group behind anti-capitalist riots against the Group of Eight summit" on Saturday evening. That apparently included the Independent Media Center, which was either was a target of the raid or swept up in it (the focus seems to have been on the "Genoa Social Forum," and they may have shared the same building). Often IMC reporters are activists who take part in street actions, though IMC organizers try to discourage this by advising reporters to hide their press pass when that happens. One sketchy AFP report, which alludes to a "brutal" raid: http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010722/world/afp/Police_in_brutal_raid_on_G8_protesters__press_centre.html And what appears to be a reproduced Reuters article: http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54267&group=webcast IMC reports saying police entered the newsroom: http://italia.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=5415&group=webcast http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54208&group=webcast http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54266&group=webcast http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54245&group=webcast http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54221&group=webcast CNN.com article from four days ago saying car bomb and letter bomb early this week put cops on high alert: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/17/genoa.amnesty/index.html Politech archive on Seattle IMC tussle with FBI over web logs: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=imc -Declan ********** From declan at well.com Sat Jul 21 20:32:13 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 23:32:13 -0400 Subject: Italian police raid Genoa online journalist collective Message-ID: <20010721233213.A19961@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From subscribers21 at alloymail.com Sat Jul 21 22:35:13 2001 From: subscribers21 at alloymail.com (subscribers21 at alloymail.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 00:35:13 -0500 Subject: Another "get rich quick" cliche. ....? 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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 06:58:43 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 08:58:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <3B53FCE0.9827.6711B6@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > > Still, if you read the documentation, COINTELPRO was quite a formidable > > program. > > Perhaps. The FBI by its very nature tends to do bad things, and we have > seen some bad things done by the FBI to people who post on this list. Really? Who? If you're refering to either Bell or CJ, in both cases the individual acted in a premeditated and intentional manner in order to provoke a responce. When you yank on a dogs chain, and the dog bites you. It isn't the dogs fault. But this isn't going to make much impact on somebody that thinks they're somehow above answering to others for their actions. Another example of how the C-A-C-L "I got a right to...." (eg kill people) is full of shit for the simple reason they forget the "...until it interferes with anothers expression of their rights". > I find it much more plausible that commies did bad things, > things characteristic of commies, because they were bad people. 'bad' to who? It certainly wasn't bad to them. Hitler thought he was doing a 'good' thing 'in the big picture'. More of that 'ends justifies the means' crap that seems so popular in C-A-C-L philosophy. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:01:28 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:01:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Meatspace In-Reply-To: <3B54028F.31403.7D4500@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > It is a response to the claim was that the Panther's repression of internal > dissent was somehow a result of CIA mindrays making them do evil things. > They did evil things because they were bad people. What a simplistic and self serving viewpoint. "What I do is ok because I'm a good person, what they do is bad because they're bad people." More angels among men crap. Got a newsflash bubba, people(!) do both good and bad things. There is no such thing as a 'good' or a bad 'person' per se. Just self-serving bigotry and self-justification, and nobody escapes either. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:10:17 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:10:17 -0500 Subject: Summit Protests Rage for Second Day Message-ID: <3B5ADEC9.9311F26C@ssz.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010721/wl/summit_protests_46.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:12:37 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:12:37 -0500 Subject: High-tech warfare -- The Washington Times Message-ID: <3B5ADF55.31379A0B@ssz.com> http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20010722-949860.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:13:39 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:13:39 -0500 Subject: G8 summit riot officer on murder charge - smh.com.au - World Message-ID: <3B5ADF93.4A206FD0@ssz.com> Kick-ass!!! http://www.smh.com.au/news/0107/22/world/world2.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:14:56 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:14:56 -0500 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <3B5ADFE0.895D1091@ssz.com> Point this baby at the ground... http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27248-2001Jul20.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:37:42 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:37:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721115829.A7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:14:52AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > > You are a ... "journalist" ??? > > Everyone's a journalist nowadays. They always were. The 'commercial' distinction about 'press' is a false and unconstitutional distinction. The Constitution speaks of 'the press', not as a bunch of fame and profit seeking opportunists, but as a free and available mechanism for individuals to discuss their views and desires (this mailing list is a perfect example as is a private mailbox. What todays modern press does is a bastardization of intent and a whoring for fame and profit; as opposed to fostering real discussion and change in our society. Some Jefferson quotes to demonstrate the distinction: No government ought to be without censors; and when the press is free, no one ever will. Nature has given to man no other means of sifting out the truth either in religion, law or politics. I think it as honorable to the government neither to know or notice its sycophants or censors as it would be undignified and criminal to pamper the former and persecute the latter. At a very early period in my life I determined never to put a sentence into any newspaper. I have religiously adhered to the resolution through my life and have great reason to be contented with it. Were I to undertake to answer the calumnies of the newspapers it would be more than all my time and twenty aids could effect. For, while I should be answering one, twenty new ones would be invented. I have thought it better to trust to the justice of my countrymen that they would judge me by what they see of my conduct on the stage they have placed me. > Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, > their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this > point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list: > http://www.politechbot.com/p-02281.html You lump the majority into a fraction. A prime example of the self-serving dellusion of cash and fame on the truth. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bob at black.org Sun Jul 22 09:39:18 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:39:18 -0700 Subject: Filetopia = gnutella + crypto Message-ID: <3B5B01B5.717A906F@black.org> FYI: a gnutellish distrib P2P/search tool *with crypto*. For Wintel. >From its doc: Filetopia is a free communications software that includes: instant messaging, chat, e-mail, a powerful file sharing system with a search engine, online friends list and message boards. What is unique to this software is the level of security and privacy that it provides. It uses a choice of strong ciphers and public key techniques for all communications and sophisticated techniques to protect your IP and thus make you truly anonymous and safe from attacks. ..... I've been running this P2P filesharer for a few days, its quite stable and fast even on a slow, old Win95 system (unlike many other P2P tools). I have no assoc. with Filetopia From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:40:41 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:40:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <20010721121135.B7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 10:39:06PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > An unconstitutional law. A law which limits freedom in a country which is > > ultimately governed by "Congress shall make no law..." > > > > If you can't catch that clue, there is no hope. > > The interesting thing in this case is that Dmitry was not arrested for > discussing or revealing information about Adobe's arguably-sucky copy > protection system. If you read the FBI affidavit > (http://cryptome.org/usa-v-sklyarov.htm), you'll note that the FBI > seems only concerned about his commercial activities: [ ... ] > That's because the DMCA only makes commercial circumvention a crime: > > (a) In general. -- Any person who violates section 1201 or 1202 > willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private > financial gain, Wrong. See that phrase 'private financial gain'? That means that any(!!!) activity, private or commercial, which reduces the cash flow INTO the corporation is a legitimate target. So simply talking about it is most definitely a crime. So, while in this case they may not have decided to go this route, the route is still there. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 02:43:41 2001 From: goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com (goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com) Date: 22 Jul 2001 09:43:41 -0000 Subject: EASY WAY TO GET A FLORIDA BEACH HOME Message-ID: <20010722094341.8900.qmail@hermes.getresponse.com> THE MOST RELIABLE AND EASIEST WAY TO GET A HOME FREE TODAY! Dear Friend, Please dont throw away what may be the only and greatest chance youll ever have to really, truly get ahead financially! I know that once you start using my money-making method, your life will improve 100 times! You will be able to spend more time with your family and doing what you really want. I know your e-mail box is full of offers from people who want to help you get rich quick. Ive seen them all. And its a shame when people unknowingly fall for them. Stocks, confusing business deals, sales strategies and all kinds of gimmicks that are unsafe and do NOT work. I guarantee this is different. Much, much different. With my proven method THE VERY WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN IS YOU MAKE YOUR MONEY BACK! I want to put my method in your hands soon so you can see for yourself how easy it is to write your own paycheck for thousands of dollars each and every month! So, do yourself a favor and have the courage to take hold of your future now! You have absolutely NOTHING to lose! I will show you how to get rich without back-breaking labor, or slaving away at a dead end job. PLEASE VISIT : http://www.expage.com/PlugIn2001 NOW --- To remove yourself from further mailings, visit this webpage: http://GetResponse.com/r.cgi?a=internetmarketingsolution&e=cypherpunks_Xyssz.com&i= From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:48:09 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:48:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Dunno... Seeing what went down in Gothenburg, and the shit that's going on > now in Genoa, I too am beginning to think there is something very wrong with > all this... Duh. What was your first clue? > >The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name. > > Agreed. Actually its a clear demonstration of the paucity of 'anarchist' solutions to social situations and how ill fit it is to human psychology. Some never learn, they keep hoping for angels among men. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:48:58 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:48:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <20010721170338.26392.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Morlock Elloi wrote: > So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun > fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software > sweatshops ? > > What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds > should be afraid of ? 911 -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:52:22 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:52:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <3B59C172.C7FADE61@sethf.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Seth Finkelstein wrote: > While this is true, there's a very deep issue in the > definition of "protected". No there isn't, it's just that '...no law...' is onconvenient for people who believe they are angels among men: Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. > The problem is better rendered that the courts have taken the view that the > protection of (intellectual) *property rights* trumps the free-speech > concerns here. The problem is that courts believe they can interpret the constitution instead of as actually worded, being limited to laws made 'under' the constutition. A major distinction. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sun Jul 22 09:54:35 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:54:35 -0700 Subject: A new record? 18 Choategrams this morning! Message-ID: After reading the handful of messages that made it through lne.com's filters, I double-checked my "trash" directory to see what my own filters had thrown away. Some kind of new record: 18 messages from Choate, posted during just a 2-hour period this morning. From the headers, most look to be Choategrams giving us pointers to what Yahoo or CNN make readily available. (One pulled at random: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010721/wl/summit_protests_46.html "Summit Protests Rage for Second Day") Gee, Choate, how would we know about yesterday's news, reported widely, discussed here, if you didn't pass on a pointer to Yahoo? Some would call it mail-bombing the list to disrupt it. Perhaps. But I expect it's just plain cluelessness. Some kind of "URL Tourette's Syndrome." Thank Baal for filtering tools. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:56:54 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:56:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [spam score 10.00/10.0 -pobox] State appeals court says ignorance no defense in wiretapping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > Opinion at: http://www.courts.state.md.us/opinions/coa/2001/125a00.pdf > > "We are all familiar with the legend of Lady Godiva who, in response to a Legend? Leofric, Earl of Mercia -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 07:58:54 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:58:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 In-Reply-To: <20010721144216.B10879@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I'm sympathetic to the deceased's family. But it strikes me that if > you assault a police vehicle with armed cops inside with the evident > intent to do physical harm, you'd better be wearing a bulletproof vest. That has yet to be proven. Simply tumping a vehicle over is not in and of itself 'intent to do physical harm'. You assume, without evidence, that the protestors even knew the van was occupied. Further, you assume that the protestor shot was actually involved. Further, you assume that the store the police stated is accurate. A lot of assumptions for somebody who is supposed to be unbiased as a journalist. (Of course we know you're neither) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 08:00:54 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:00:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721141017.A10338@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:37:48AM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > > Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of > > the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda. > > So instead of responding to the text of the article, you rant about the > author. That's intellectual integrity about on the level of many of > those anti-property rights protests. You fucking hypocrite. At least half the crap you spew is nothing more than ad hominims. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 08:01:36 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:01:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <20010721141243.B10338@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:55:12PM -0700, John Young wrote: > > Why bust Dmitry and not the head of ElcomSoft if the > > primary crime is commercial gain? That he is claimed > > to be the copyright holder is thin stuff, for that does not > > support his being the main commercial beneficiary (unless > > the FBI has evidence that was not revealed about Elcomsoft's > > internal finances). > > The problem with this analysis is that he does not have to be the > main commercial beneficiary for the charges to stick. The problem is that no 'beneficiary' is required, only 'intent'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 08:03:38 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:03:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Exactly, and democracy is as unpopular as always for those who believe they should somehow 'lead' others 'less able'. "I am not one who fears the people." Thomas Jefferson On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Anonymous wrote: > The real issue is the fact that the battle takes place. > Contrary to the statements made by current "world leaders", this is > democracy in action. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at flex.com Sun Jul 22 13:06:14 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:06:14 -1000 Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 In-Reply-To: References: <20010721144216.B10879@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010722100138.0311c9c0@flex.com> At 04:58 AM 7/22/01, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> I'm sympathetic to the deceased's family. But it strikes me that if >> you assault a police vehicle with armed cops inside with the evident >> intent to do physical harm, you'd better be wearing a bulletproof vest. The victim was reportedly shot in the head. >That has yet to be proven. Simply tumping a vehicle over is not in and of >itself 'intent to do physical harm'. You assume, without evidence, that >the protestors even knew the van was occupied. Further, you assume that >the protestor shot was actually involved. Further, you assume that the >store the police stated is accurate. A picture is worth a thousand words. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20010720/wl/imdf20072001155102a.html What is that board for, Jim? Any sign of tinted windows? Reese From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Jul 22 08:07:40 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:07:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > Agreed, 100% Paradoxically, I also agree that the "fucking shit up" is > often necessary to generate suffucient public recognition of the issues at > hand. > > No, I don't have an answer to this paradox. Paradoxes arise, usually, because the relationship is being viewed in the wrong context. Read the first two para's of the DoI for one solution to the 'paradox'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 08:10:44 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:10:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 In-Reply-To: <20010722105909.B12981@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > That has yet to be proven. Simply tumping a vehicle over is not in and of > > itself 'intent to do physical harm'. You assume, without evidence, that > > the protestors even knew the van was occupied. Further, you assume that > > the protestor shot was actually involved. Further, you assume that the > > store the police stated is accurate. > > A close look at the Reuters photo sequence shows that these "assumptions" > are in truth conclusions. Actually no, they don't. All they show is a group of people turning a van over. As to addressing their 'intent', especially with respect to 'harming the cops' they say nothing. Photo's don't capture the mind. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 08:55:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:55:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Geek Profiling Upheld by Appeals Court In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > (BTW, the poem was pretty evocative, as far as I can tell.) Irrelevant. Further, good poetry is supposed to be evocative. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 10:57:23 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:57:23 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matthew Gaylor wrote: > There is little difference [between > the two major parties]. Just > continuations of the police state. Last night, I attended a talk by science fiction writer and 2nd amendment activist, J. Neil Schulman. To distinguish between the two major parties, he refers to them as the "Mommy" party and the "Daddy" party. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine which parties they are. S a n d y From declan at well.com Sun Jul 22 07:59:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:59:09 -0400 Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:58:54AM -0500 References: <20010721144216.B10879@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010722105909.B12981@cluebot.com> On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:58:54AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > I'm sympathetic to the deceased's family. But it strikes me that if > > you assault a police vehicle with armed cops inside with the evident > > intent to do physical harm, you'd better be wearing a bulletproof vest. > > That has yet to be proven. Simply tumping a vehicle over is not in and of > itself 'intent to do physical harm'. You assume, without evidence, that > the protestors even knew the van was occupied. Further, you assume that > the protestor shot was actually involved. Further, you assume that the > store the police stated is accurate. A close look at the Reuters photo sequence shows that these "assumptions" are in truth conclusions. > A lot of assumptions for somebody who is supposed to be unbiased as a > journalist. Hahahahahahaha. -Declan From bear at sonic.net Sun Jul 22 12:13:42 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CNN.com - Family remembers G8 protester - July 21, 2001 In-Reply-To: <20010721144216.B10879@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >I'm sympathetic to the deceased's family. But it strikes me that if >you assault a police vehicle with armed cops inside with the evident >intent to do physical harm, you'd better be wearing a bulletproof vest. ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ I think you misspelled "Armored Personnel Carrier". Bear From izaac at setec.org Sun Jul 22 09:25:45 2001 From: izaac at setec.org (Izaac) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:25:45 -0400 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: ; from Jim Choate on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:00:54AM -0500 References: <20010721141017.A10338@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010722122545.D28387@setec.org> On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:00:54AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > You fucking hypocrite. At least half the crap you spew is nothing more > than ad hominims. In many a distant land, one can hear the laugher as it rolls over hills and into valleys; just as those gripped by hilarity at its source roll over papers and into furniture. -- ___ ___ . . ___ \ / |\ |\ \ _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__ From bear at sonic.net Sun Jul 22 12:37:33 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >It should be obvious that these riots are not so much ideologically >motivated (though that's the pseudo-rational), but testosterone motivated. >Most of these monkeys couldn't spell anarchy let alone understand it >philosophically. Let's not confuse the cover story with the real >motive--fucking stuff up for the fun of it. Hmmm. I was digging after this for a while, trying to figure out why these people were rioting. As you note, there's no real coherent message from the protesters, not even a thread of unifying platform or goals. But then, the information content of what comes out of the mouth of someone who's just hit his/her thumb with a hammer is pretty low, too. It doesn't mean s/he doesn't have a real concern. This is just a guess, but what *I* think motivates these people is frustration and disenfranchisement. It's not that any substantial group of them want any particular thing, it's just that the whole bunch of them feel that they don't have a voice in what's happening any more. The "globalization" people are consulting *each other* instead of the people affected by the laws to figure out what laws they should pass, and the people are pissed off because they don't feel that they have any input into the process. Also, the personal pressure on them is a little higher every year as the forces of capitalism get more ruthless and efficient at exploiting them as a market and as cheap labor - and the barriers to actually starting a business of one's own seem to be going nowhere but up - so they're also frustrated by the fact that even though they may be making more money, they're still working for other people and at the end of the day they're still poorer. Capitalism from the worker's perspective means working longer hours, getting paid more, and winding up under family pressure (because your family is an intensely and effectively targeted market) to spend it all on stupid stuff. Furbys, TV's, and barbie dolls, for god's sake. So at the end of the day they have more stupid crap but they're poorer and more tired and have less time to spend with their family - and after a while they get frustrated. But none, or few, of them see it in exactly those terms. They're just angry and frustrated and they don't really know why. The few issues they believe in are getting ignored, so they go protest about those few issues and it turns into a chaotic mess because everybody has different issues and different degrees of how pissed- off they really are. More frustration. Bear From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 10:37:46 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:37:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > >Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully. > > Not carefully. Wisely. And what pray tell is 'wisely'? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 13:18:44 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:18:44 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ray Dillinger wrote: > This is just a guess, but what *I* > think motivates these people is > frustration and disenfranchisement. > It's not that any substantial group > of them want any particular thing, > it's just that the whole bunch of > them feel that they don't have a > voice in what's happening any more. > The "globalization" people are > consulting *each other* instead of > the people affected by the laws to > figure out what laws they should > pass, and the people are pissed off > because they don't feel that they > have any input into the process. There are several possible answers to what you have written. First, at least theoretically, your "'globalization' people" were elected to represent the people. In a democratic system, the people's "input" into the process is the ballot box choice of their representatives. That's theory. Personally, I think the problem is the idea that we need laws (i.e., the threat of violence) to address the problems in question. > Also, the personal pressure on them > is a little higher every year as > the forces of capitalism get more > ruthless and efficient at exploiting > them as a market and as cheap labor... I'm not sure what you are talking about. What are the "forces of capitalism" to which you refer? Personally, I try to avoid the word "capitalism" at all. First, it's a pejorative Marxist term. Second, everybody seems to have a different definition. If you mean "free market economics" I totally disagree with you. If you mean government welfare for favored businesses, well, we might have some common ground there. Clear definitions make all the difference in the world. > Capitalism from the worker's > perspective means working longer > hours, getting paid more, and > winding up under family pressure > (because your family is an > intensely and effectively > targeted market) to spend it all > on stupid stuff. Furbys, TV's, > and barbie dolls, for god's sake. > So at the end of the day they > have more stupid crap but they're > poorer and more tired and have > less time to spend with their > family - and after a while they > get frustrated. I'm sorry, the Furby definition of capitalism isn't very cogent or helpful. > But none, or few, of them see it > in exactly those terms. They're > just angry and frustrated and they > don't really know why. Why don't they know why? Can't they read? I have so sympathy for militant ignorance when the world is awash in information about how things work. > The few issues they believe in > are getting ignored... Which issues are those? So far, I haven't heard of ANY issues raised by the rioters that are being ignored. Controversial/unproven issues such as "global warming" are being discussed ad nausea. The main reason the governments of the world aren't "doing something" is because no one knows what really needs to be done. Ignorant rioters THINK they know what needs to be done, but there is no reason to believe they know squat about the subject for which they claim to have such passion about. Opinions--and that's all we're talking about here--are like assholes; everyone has one. S a n d y From freematt at coil.com Sun Jul 22 10:46:52 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:46:52 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <20010721121947.C7990@cluebot.com> References: <20010721121947.C7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 12:19 PM -0400 7/21/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >This was not a hotly-debated law, folks. Anyone who thinks there's >a difference between the two major parties on this issue -- and I'm not >saying Matt does, of course -- should get over it. > >-Declan That is correct. There is little difference. Just continuations of the police state. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From declan at well.com Sun Jul 22 10:53:55 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:53:55 -0400 Subject: A new record? 18 Choategrams this morning! In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:54:35AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010722135355.B22610@cluebot.com> Coincidentally, before reading this, I finally decided to killfile Choate. I'm not sure whether it was the inane nuttiness, the weird quoting of the First Amendment with metronome regularity, or the loopy argument that protesters trying to trash a police van were really doing that by way of polite introduction before perhaps extending an invite to afternoon tea. Anyway, thanks to the graces of procmail, I now have a "trash" folder, and a sincere expectation that my cypherpunks traffic will fall in volume while rising in quality by 20 percent. -Declan On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:54:35AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > After reading the handful of messages that made it through lne.com's > filters, I double-checked my "trash" directory to see what my own > filters had thrown away. > > Some kind of new record: 18 messages from Choate, posted during just > a 2-hour period this morning. From the headers, most look to be > Choategrams giving us pointers to what Yahoo or CNN make readily > available. > > (One pulled at random: > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010721/wl/summit_protests_46.html > "Summit Protests Rage for Second Day") > > > Gee, Choate, how would we know about yesterday's news, reported > widely, discussed here, if you didn't pass on a pointer to Yahoo? > > Some would call it mail-bombing the list to disrupt it. Perhaps. But > I expect it's just plain cluelessness. Some kind of "URL Tourette's > Syndrome." > > Thank Baal for filtering tools. > > > --Tim May > > > > -- > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 14:09:58 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:09:58 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <003701c1120b$23a5e760$32595ad8@PANIC> References: <003701c1120b$23a5e760$32595ad8@PANIC> Message-ID: At 12:32 PM -0500 7/21/01, Benson Schliesser wrote: >> We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect the LEAs >to enforce all laws that are on the books. >> >> If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the >legislature and the Executive branch. > > >And the Jewish population of Europe during WW2 had no right to complain >about the Nazi soldiers just doing their job, right... If one can't distinguish between the enforcement of laws of questionable constitutional validity (yes, *questionable*) and genocide, then one should probably load the bong again, watch cartoons on TV and stay far, far away from the ballot box. In the grand scheme of things, Ashcroft believes (or appears to) in the Constitution. He may have some differences of opinion with many or most on this list, but he believes in it. That is better than we've had in at least 6 years, probably more. From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 14:15:28 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:15:28 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721173748.92480.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010721173748.92480.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:37 AM -0700 7/21/01, Morlock Elloi wrote: >> Their anti-property rights slogans, their disdain for private property, >> their embrace of socialist and Marxist ideology? See a nice writeup on this >> point that Cato's Aaron Lucas sent to my Politech list: > >Cato is the first place that I visit when curious about the current agenda of >the unique mix of libertarian/new world order propaganda. > >Translating protesters' agenda to "anti-property" *is* pure propaganda designed >to scare god-fearing middle class cypherpunks that somehow they will lose some >of their property should G8 protesters seize the world government (BTW, it >would be interesting to see what is the net worth of cpunkers and how that >influences their positions :-) > >As the word "communist" loses its strength new words are needed to instill >fear, and "anti-property" is a nice catchall. It's all in the language. > >You also enumerate ideologies with implicit assumption that they are "bad". So >whatever can be labeled "marxist" or "socialist" is somehow horrible. You don't >say WHAT is bad about it, you *assume* that everyone will jump to the bandwagon >and agree that it's something bad. Kill the commies. This is a classic >propaganda technique. Wanna bet? Marxist, socialist and communist ideologies are bad because at some level they assume that society has a *right* to the output of my labour above and beyond the level that I consume from society. That is slavery. (To put this another way, it is legitimate for society to force me to pay for what I consume, it has a "right" (tho' this word is meaningless when it comes to an abstraction like "society") to my productive labour *ONLY* to the point where it pays for what I use. Marxist, Socialists, communists, Nazis and Fascists have the further problem of believing (for the most part) in massively centralized planning structures. In societies of about 100k people, these fail miserably, and don't work all that well in smaller groups. > >I will not bother citing sources that have exactly the opposite PoV from Cato's >- you can look them up yourself. The point of a discussion is not spamming each >other with pre-digested, ready-to-wear, downloaded simplifications but to >inject some of own experience and induction. >Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger >http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 14:17:30 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:17:30 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: At 1:55 PM -0700 7/21/01, John Young wrote: >Why bust Dmitry and not the head of ElcomSoft if the Probably because Dmitry was in the country. Was the Head of ElcomSoft? >It may well be that the Dmitry bust is a ploy whose purpose >will be revealed later as we learn more about cooperation >among the globe's law enforcement and intelligence agencies. That's a bet i wouldn't take. From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 14:23:32 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:23:32 -0700 Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010721141017.A10338@cluebot.com> References: <20010721115829.A7990@cluebot.com> <20010721173748.92480.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> <20010721141017.A10338@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:10 PM -0400 7/21/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >The problem is that the protesters have no coherent message. Take this >bit of silliness: >http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10/breastfeeding-is-your-right.html > >Does anyone really think that breastfeeding is a right anytime, >anywhere? Don't I have a right to tell someone to leave my home if >they're doing it at a gathering I'm hosting on my property? (I >wouldn't, but that's not the point.) ??? Is it even something the government regulates? From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 14:30:38 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:30:38 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: <093e77eb6345e94171d4fcf4be1db484@remailer.xganon.com> References: <093e77eb6345e94171d4fcf4be1db484@remailer.xganon.com> Message-ID: At 4:35 PM -0500 7/21/01, Anonymous wrote: >> If we all look back to our younger >> days, I think we can see a much more plausible explanation for their >> actions. Hell raising. >> >> For certain people at certain ages, it's FUN to riot, throw things at the >> cops, trash stores, overturn cars and burn stuff. It is exactly the real >> lack of coherent messages from the "protestors" that supports this obvious >> conclusion. At the University of Michigan, the riots were basically the >> same, only the justification was more banal--the outlawing of booze on >> campus. >> >> It should be obvious that these riots are not so much ideologically >> motivated (though that's the pseudo-rational), but testosterone motivated. >> Most of these monkeys couldn't spell anarchy let alone understand it >> philosophically. Let's not confuse the cover story with the real >> motive--fucking stuff up for the fun of it. > >And so you propose that the protestors travelled hundreds of miles, putting >themselves in direct danger of physical harm, simply for fun? Yes. >I would submit that you have no idea what the protestors actual motivations >are. The point is neither do most of them. From maps at schloss.li Sun Jul 22 15:32:59 2001 From: maps at schloss.li (maps) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:32:59 -0700 Subject: Breaking Echelon for the Private Sector In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Faustine > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 2:16 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: NetCurrents: Echelon for the Private Sector > For example, if I were to write something on a message board > unfriendly to any given product or company, (say, for example, > NetCurrents and their bullshit privacy-invading Big Brother > monitoring services D:< ), it would likely assign my message > very low score indeed and log it in its entirety, along with > my e-mail address, into one of their databases to be > reviewed by some marketing hack (or ???) at a later date. It might be > interesting to find out who's using this, wouldn't it. Really, this sounds awfully whiny. The answer to this kind of silliness has always been anonymous posting/emailing. In the end if you can express your view on a bullshit privacy-invading Big Brother product and have the company get a summary of the public sentiment in a form even a dot-com CEO can read perhaps they might actually hear the winds of the market changing and adjust accordingly. Avoid repercussions in the usual fashion: Mixmaster and/or header spoofing. From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Jul 22 12:41:06 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: G8, issues, and familiarity Message-ID: <26c9b8735a878cfafd7172290ed9b9cd@freemail.cotse.com> On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > >CNN's poll is asking "Are you familiar with the issues behind the G8 > >summit". > >58% said "No". > >Perhaps the protesting will help motivate more to educate themselves. > True, that would be great. But how many of the remaining 42 percent > consider themselves educated, but are nevertheless content to mindlessly > repeat mickey mouse platitudes and propaganda spoon-fed to them from on > high, and who couldn't pass a rudimentary econ 101 test if their lives > depended on it? >>That's a pretty simplistic view: >>If they don't know then it's their fault for not being educated. Whose fault is it then? Anyone well-off enough to be reading CNN online hasn't got much of reason not to educate themselves. Nobody gets a free pass--I take responsibility for my own ignorance, and don't feel the need to be ashamed of it because I'm actively working to overcome it every day. Believe it or not, I went from being a high school dropout literally living on the street to a PhD student with a research job entirely on my own, with nothing to get me there but will and intelligence: why should I feel an ounce of sympathy for people with far more material advantages than I ever had who never made use of them? >>If they claim they do know then it must be platitudes and propoganda. No, I'm just disgusted with the majority of the great smug, lazy, and complacent middle class of America. I find their peculiar brand of mushheadded apathy to be beneath contempt. One of my hot buttons, I guess. > More analysis, less rhetoric. >>Analysis is rhetoric, just better organized. John von Neumann is spinning in his grave... >Lies, damn lies, statistics. Bah! How about this one: The fundamental difference between engineering with and without statistics boils down to the difference between the use of a scientific method based upon the concept of laws of nature that do not allow for chance or uncertainty and a scientific method based upon the concept of laws of probability as an attribute of nature. - W.A.Shewhart There!! :) ~Faustine. From We_The_People_ at webtv.net Sun Jul 22 12:50:30 2001 From: We_The_People_ at webtv.net (Patriots) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Message-ID: <25727-3B5B2E86-3047@storefull-231.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I am looking for a remailer that you can make the e-mail address from the sender what ever you want it to be. If you know of any, pass it on to us. Thanks ! Mike Sons of Liberty Militia Tim Stine 312 S. Wyomissing Ave. Shillington, Pa. 19607 U.N. Occupied U.S.A. 1-610-775-0497 We_The_People_ at webtv.net What is a Militia ? Defenders of Liberty & Freedom, and the Constitutional Republic. Against Tyrants ! Foreign and Domestic ! Resist the United Nations New World Order Global Government, and it's Global Socialism, actually a Evil Oligarchy of the Superrich. We must Declare our Independence from the U.N. New World Order ! Or forever lose our freedom. We_Must_Resist_For_God_And_Country. The_American_Revolution_Continues !!! http://community.webtv.net/We_The_People_/SonsofLibertyMilitia From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Jul 22 16:44:38 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:44:38 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010721190937.00866db0@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3B5B02F6.25872.1BD57A@localhost> -- > At 08:46 PM 7/21/01 -0500, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > > > >> All this argues for anonymously coded projects, etc. But that > >> means you can't get credit for novel research. This is one > >> of the ways that the DCMA is counter to historically unimpeded > >> research & innovation ---Its not rational for profs sans tenure > >> to work without credit. > >> > >> Publish or perish, > > > >While it is of little real-world usefulness, it should be noted that such > >annonymous publication can retain credit towards an individual author by > >being published under a publicly published yet anonymous public key. On 21 Jul 2001, at 19:09, David Honig wrote: > That doesn't work when you tell your department that you are the author > associated with some (formerly) anonymous key. > > Yes, it does work in the world of building reputations associated with > (anonymous > or claimed-not-anonymous) keys, but not when you need meatspace credit > --give the meat named "Prof Joe" tenure credit for work X. It is common for real world authors to publish under nom de plumes. Adding a key to a nom de plume gives added advantages to the nom de plume. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Eu8MhbQzxLzawwupANxUSdkz5ajpgUlCWGAmgHC6 4z2F9XsFvwx0oHd5o/xto/496sZij2Desy+NOTo42 From wcs at idiom.com Sun Jul 22 16:45:09 2001 From: wcs at idiom.com (bill.stewart@pobox.com , ) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ensuring that LSBs in Stego Message-ID: <200107222345.QAA17124@idiom.com> Tim is incorrect here, unless he's implicitly narrowing his argument to the case where the eavesdropper has no better model of noise than the sender, or if he's only concerned about the eavesdropper reading the message, not about the attacker detecting its presence. The problem is that a good stream of cyphertext will have a 50% ones density with no apparent correlation patterns, while the real noise may look much different, and XORing the two gives 50% uncorrelated. For two simple cases, consider "LSB is always 0" and "LSB has 75% of the bits = 1"; Tim's stegotext would be detected in both these cases. Real cases are more likely to resemble "noise limited to X kHz, Y dB", though they're of course much more computational effort to test for, and therefore less likely to be tested for. Peter Wayner's work on Mimic Functions provides some good methods for transforming messages into stegotext that meets arbitrary grammars, so you can pass automated tests for stego. That doesn't mean a human reader won't be able to detect that something's wrong, but if you've got human eavesdroppers trying to read every message you send or receive, you're probably under suspicion already. Audio is tough to use as stego cover, because it's usually compressed, removing much of the available noise and redundancy, either with a human speech model (cellphones, VOIP, etc.) or with MP3s for music, so hiding messages in it is likely to have a major impact on the sound. Doesn't mean you can't do it, or can't start your messages with "Hi, Bob, I'm calling from the subway" or label your music file "Live Phish concert, 1/1/01, audience tape from nosebleed seats", and you're better off using less aggressive compression (e.g. 32kbps ADPCM instead of 6.5kbps cellphone algorithms.) Bill On 07/21/2001 - 17:25, Tim May wrote: > At 4:28 PM -0700 7/21/01, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > > -- > >On 18 Jul 2001, at 8:07, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >> *sigh*. I will not use a stego system unless I write it first and > >> my recipient has the only other copy. Because it's a matter of > >> keeping the *method* secret, that's really the only way. > > > >In principle, it should be possible to write a stego program that is > >undetectable, provided your enemy has no better models of noise > >sources in the medium than you have. As far as I know, no one > >has done this. > > > >It is probably easier to do this with sound than with video, as order > >and randomness in sound somewhat easier to specify. > > Take a set of bits generated by a good PRNG. Use this set for the LSB > of GIFs or other noncompressed image files. Anyone analyzing the LSBs > sees a set with various spectral and statistical properties. > > To send a signal, a message, XOR the message with this set of > PRNG-generated bits. One's recipient already has a copy of the > PRNG-generated bits. (Remember, stego is not the same as public key > crypto, so Alice and Bob can arrange in advance to use a particular > entry point in an PRNG, or an entry point in a one-time pad, etc.) > > The resulting LSBs will have, "in almost cases," a set of spectral > and statistical properties nearly identical with the original LSBs. > Unless the message bits are somehow correlated with the > PRNG-generated bits, the distribution will pass all tests for > "randomness" that the orginal PRNG-generated bits passed. > > This is a kind of variant on von Neumann's scheme for ensuring even > distributions of heads and tails in a message stream even with coins > weighted unevenly towards heads and tails. > > The approach can be extended to have the distribution of LSBs look > like that of a camera source, or whatever normal images or sound > files typically have. (In this case, Alice and Bob exchange sets of > LSBs from camera/microphone sources. Messages are then XORed with > these sets. All statistical tests produce the same results as > original camera/microphone sources produce.) > > (A "gotcha" left as an exercise if if the image or microphone source > produces fixed patterns of bits in certain places. For example, if > every image file begins with 16 fixed bits, or somesuch. In this > case, XORing these fixed bits with the message bits would NOT > preserve the statistical properties.) > > --Tim May > > --Tim May > > > > > -- > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns > > X-Authenticated-User: idiom === Thanks; Bill Stewart Did you know that NetCurrents, which bills itself as "the Internet's Premiere Intelligence Agency", conducts real-time monitoring of message boards, chatrooms, and IRC channels, logging and producing reports on all occurences of particluar keywords for their clients? Echelon for the private sector, pure and simple. They even developed a kind of AI to assign a score to messages based on whether they are positive, neutral, or negative, even scoring emoticons. For example, if I were to write something on a message board unfriendly to any given product or company, (say, for example, NetCurrents and their bullshit privacy-invading Big Brother monitoring services D:< ), it would likely assign my message a very low score indeed and log it in its entirety, along with my e-mail address, into one of their databases to be reviewed by some marketing hack (or ???) at a later date. It might be interesting to find out who's using this, wouldn't it. Check out their Orwellian webpage: http://www.netcurrents.com The Internet is Talking...Are you listening? The Internet provides individuals with great opportunities to intentionally distort and mislead public perceptions about corporations, which can have a significant effect on a company's shareholder value and public image. Anonymous Internet postings have become a serious threat to companies - often requiring only a matter of minutes for their effects to be felt. 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From jya at pipeline.com Sun Jul 22 17:50:28 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:50:28 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200107222150.RAA15539@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Yes, the head of ElcomSoft and another senior officer were in the US when Dmitry was busted, Alexander Katalov and his brother Vladimir. I spoke to and e-mailed Vladimir a couple of days after the arrest and he was dismayed at being unable to speak to Dmitry and getting the runaround from the Las Vegas authorities. He was apprehensive that the whole ElcomSoft crew in the US would be busted, and didn't know who to turn to for advice. Vladimir was in Portland so I gave him Robb London's lovenest address and phone number. From wcs at idiom.com Sun Jul 22 18:02:26 2001 From: wcs at idiom.com (billstewart@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NetCurrents: Echelon for the Private Sector Message-ID: <200107230102.SAA54972@idiom.com> However, unlike Echelon, they're probably monitoring only conversations in public spaces, like an extended higher-priced version of Google/DejaNews. There's nothing there you wouldn't be able to find on Blacknet :-) John Doe > On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:15:53PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > > Did you know that NetCurrents, which bills itself as "the Internet's > > Premiere Intelligence Agency", conducts real-time monitoring of message > > boards, chatrooms, and IRC channels, logging and producing reports on all > > occurences of particluar keywords for their clients? > > > > Echelon for the private sector, pure and simple. On 07/22/2001 - 17:52, Declan McCullagh wrote: > And what we would expect the market to do. > If you don't like it, use a nym. X-Authenticated-User: idiom ~~~ Thanks; Bill Stewart From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 22 08:36:42 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:36:42 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Geek Profiling Upheld by Appeals Court In-Reply-To: <200107210152.f6L1qIG07568@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: >The 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals has just upheld the right of schools >to suspend or expel any student who speaks or writes about fictional >violence, dresses differently, has a "disturbing" background, or "fits the >profile" of a "homicidal student." I wonder whether this is a problem brought on by the ideas of students, or by the students expressing their ideas within the confines of the public school system. See next. >The appeals panel said while the poem viewed by itself is protected >speech, the school district had a right to suspend LaVine on fears he may >have carried out what he had written. This would be no problem if the school was private -- fear is good enough a excuse for expulsion if it is made explicit, beforehand, that explicit writing is not accepted. But when the student is forced to participate in the education, punishing for something that hasn't already transpired is certainly unjust. It clearly limits the breadth of thought the student is allowed. If one is frightened enough to think of poems written by teenagers as evidence of imminent violence, one should definitely have the option of enrolling one's children in a school where provocativeness is forbidden, stupid if that sort of move would be. But when people have no realistic choice of how to school their children, it is to be expected that the full spectrum of human literary talent will be present, too. The result is that some writings will certaily touch on controversial issues. Like the poem at issue here. The only problem here is that *all* children are being pressured to participate in education in an environment (public schools) where opinions and modes of expression that the more close-minded may perceive as threatening necessarily manifest. (BTW, the poem was pretty evocative, as far as I can tell.) Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 22 09:01:52 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:01:52 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Rallies on Monday In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010720192611.00bfa1b0@flex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: >>Just my 2 cents (after about 12 beers...) > >A little crazy? No. A lot drunk. Take two aspirin with the handful of >clue pills, you'll need them. Besides, being drunk is no excuse for beind stupid. I mean, I boast a good in-excess-of-1-per-mille alcohol intoxication at the moment, and still manage to write in a relatively rational manner. Being drunk does *not* mean one is exempt from displaying manners, or that one can safely switch off one's intellect. Then, if one really can't cope with drugs as strong as alcohol, but still wants take them, sure. One just shouldn't be surprised if that leads to behavior one might regret later. He really does seem to need a clue pill. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 22 09:52:37 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:52:37 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: >I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real >encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they >have on the street is a good whack to opposing counsel's head and that >about the most serious ramifications of this might be that the protestor >gets off scott free after 48 hours in holding with the gang bangers. True enough. It's easy to say things about policy when you don't have a personal interest. But don't forget that cypherpunks are doing a good job of implanting a 2nd Amendment, civil disobedience and personal morality positive views into anyone who comes by. It might well be that cops acting unconscionably will soon enough encounter deeply cypherpunkly offenders, who just blow the cop away if the going unjustifiably gets rough. >Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with >violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. >Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do >in Adobe's place? What they do, of course. That just means anyone opposed to their game had better prepare even better. How does one prepare for ideology driven hackers stealing one's intellectual assets? Guaranteeably anonymous slander, and inside rumour? Mass protests numbering in the tens of thousands? Snipers? A van-full of petroleum+nitrates parked outside one's office, or home, or one's children's school? Cleverly utilized discharges of nerve gas? I certainly do not advocate that sort of response, but that is what escalation is all about. It naturally happens when the going gets tough enough. Corporations better not escalate, or they will come up with something like the G8 protests, only with far less resources to combat the trouble. >Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully. Not carefully. Wisely. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From declan at well.com Sun Jul 22 17:12:55 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 20:12:55 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107222150.RAA15539@blount.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:50:28PM -0700 References: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <200107222150.RAA15539@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010722201255.A29900@cluebot.com> On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:50:28PM -0700, John Young wrote: > the runaround from the Las Vegas authorities. He was > apprehensive that the whole ElcomSoft crew in the US > would be busted, and didn't know who to turn to for > advice. At least this unfortunate situation has changed. EFF has given him office space, and I suspect he as all the legal advice he needs. -Declan From declan at well.com Sun Jul 22 17:14:40 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 20:14:40 -0400 Subject: NetCurrents: Echelon for the Private Sector In-Reply-To: ; from a3495@cotse.com on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:15:53PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010722201440.B29900@cluebot.com> On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:15:53PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > Did you know that NetCurrents, which bills itself as "the Internet's > Premiere Intelligence Agency", conducts real-time monitoring of message > boards, chatrooms, and IRC channels, logging and producing reports on all > occurences of particluar keywords for their clients? > > Echelon for the private sector, pure and simple. And what we would expect the market to do. If you don't like it, use a nym. -Declan From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 21:07:28 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:07:28 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER Message-ID: C'punks, Here's an excellent opportunity for our favorite resident buffoon to strut his lawyer-wannabe chops. The next LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test) will be administered on October 6, 2001. Jim, PLEASE take the test. I'd love to see your test score. And, hey, maybe you'll get a high enough score to tempt you to go to law school (unlikely, given your illogical thought processes, but even a blind chicken finds a seed now and then). It's only 96 bucks. Sign up for the test at: https://www5.lsac.org/reggie/cgi-bin/r.exe?To=tintro.htm&from=rint.htm S a n d y _____________________________________________________________ If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? W W \*\ /*/ The Road Kill Group |*| |*| /*////|\\\\*\ |\- (|||||||||||||\((x)\ -======-------------||---:> (|||||||||||||/((x)/ \*\\\\|////*/ |/- |*| |*| /*/ \*\ M M verbigeration (vuhr-bij-uh-RAY-shun) noun Obsessive repetition of meaningless words and phrases. [From Latin verbigerare, to talk, chat, from verbum word + gerere, to carry on + -ation.] From measl at mfn.org Sun Jul 22 19:21:13 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:21:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > At 12:32 PM -0500 7/21/01, Benson Schliesser wrote: > >> We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect the LEAs > >to enforce all laws that are on the books. > >> > >> If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the > >legislature and the Executive branch. > > > > > >And the Jewish population of Europe during WW2 had no right to complain > >about the Nazi soldiers just doing their job, right... > > If one can't distinguish between the enforcement of laws of > questionable constitutional validity (yes, *questionable*) and > genocide, then one should probably load the bong again, watch cartoons > on TV and stay far, far away from the ballot box. > > In the grand scheme of things, Ashcroft believes (or appears to) > in the Constitution. He may have some differences of opinion with many > or most on this list, but he believes in it. > > That is better than we've had in at least 6 years, probably more. You are arguing a mere degree of difference Petro. The fact that Ashcroft "believes in the constitution" (like YOU would have any way to be imbued with such knowledge!) is irrelevent. Even if we accept your assertion that Ashcroft believes, if he is willing to enforce clearly violative laws, then is the *enemy*. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From unicorn at schloss.li Sun Jul 22 21:41:44 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:41:44 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER References: Message-ID: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he presents a valid ETS score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Sandfort" To: "Cypherpunks" Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:07 PM Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > C'punks, > > Here's an excellent opportunity for our favorite resident buffoon to strut > his lawyer-wannabe chops. The next LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test) will be > administered on October 6, 2001. > > Jim, PLEASE take the test. I'd love to see your test score. And, hey, > maybe you'll get a high enough score to tempt you to go to law school > (unlikely, given your illogical thought processes, but even a blind chicken > finds a seed now and then). > > It's only 96 bucks. Sign up for the test at: > > https://www5.lsac.org/reggie/cgi-bin/r.exe?To=tintro.htm&from=rint.htm > > > S a n d y > _____________________________________________________________ > > If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed > by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? > > W W > \*\ /*/ > The Road Kill Group |*| |*| > /*////|\\\\*\ |\- > (|||||||||||||\((x)\ > -======-------------||---:> > (|||||||||||||/((x)/ > \*\\\\|////*/ |/- > |*| |*| > /*/ \*\ > M M > > verbigeration (vuhr-bij-uh-RAY-shun) noun > > Obsessive repetition of meaningless words and phrases. > > [From Latin verbigerare, to talk, chat, from verbum word + gerere, to carry > on + -ation.] > From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 21:51:25 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:51:25 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > Fucking trolls.... Thank you sir. May I have another? S a n d y From responder at join4free.com Sun Jul 22 14:54:22 2001 From: responder at join4free.com (Join4Free.Com) Date: 22 Jul 2001 21:54:22 -0000 Subject: Welcome to Join4Free.Com Message-ID: <20010722215422.15685.qmail@wwwb3.join4free.com> Thank you for signing up to Join4Free.Com. As a member of Join4Free.Com you will receive: 1) Unlimited Access to Join4Free.Com and all sister sites. 2) A daily adult newsletter with free photos and many other FREE & Special Offers. 3) Special promotional offers from our affiliates (Optinmail.cc). Your email address is secure with us and will only be used through our own network of promotional offers. We will never rent or sell your email to outside marketing agencies. Before your membership is active, please visit the following link so that we may verify this is your correct e-mail address: http://www.join4free.com/quickvalidate.html?c=Mg8xXYZWXuvw&i=3340484 Note: If clicking on the link does not work, please copy and paste it into your web browser. Below is your info: Username: cypherpunks at toad.com Password: cypherpunks IMPORTANT: Enter your username exactly as it appears above, it should be your complete email address. Once you validate your membership, you can visit our sister sites as well. Our sister sites include: * http://www.join4free.com/ * http://amateurs.join4free.com/ * http://asians.join4free.com/ * http://lesbians.join4free.com/ * http://gay.join4free.com/ * http://teens.join4free.com/ Sincerely, Join4Free.Com Staff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3633 bytes Desc: not available URL: From unicorn at schloss.li Sun Jul 22 22:02:11 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:02:11 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER References: Message-ID: <003601c11334$a23a4740$d2972040@thinkpad574> I'm not interested in funding your legal education, I'm interested in seeing your LSAT score. I will refund your registration fee in exchange for your valid ETS score report. What you do with it after that is up to you. No cost to you. Put up or shut up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Cc: "Sandy Sandfort" ; Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Re: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > How bad do you two drones want it? I don't work for free (as any > self-respecting C-A-C-L should respect). > > 3 months, at say $10k/month sounds fair to stroke your egos. > > When I get the check with cash up front you got it. > > Put up, or shut up. > > (and no, I wouldn't become a fucking lawyer under any circumstances. I got > more self respect.) From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 22:17:19 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:17:19 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <003601c11334$a23a4740$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: Black Unicorn wrote: > I will refund your registration > fee in exchange for your valid > ETS score report. > ... > No cost to you. Put up or shut up. And I'll match that amount if Inchoate's LSAT score exceeds mine. Put up or shut up, Jimbo. S a n d y From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 22:23:11 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:23:11 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> References: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: At 9:41 PM -0700 7/22/01, Black Unicorn wrote: >I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he presents a valid ETS >score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. Willing to make me the same offer? From schear at lvcm.com Sun Jul 22 22:34:06 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:34:06 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <3B5ADFE0.895D1091@ssz.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010722222913.0445d118@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:14 AM 7/22/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Point this baby at the ground... > >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27248-2001Jul20.html I wonder what the destructive mechanism is for this system? Heat by radiant absorption seems an obvious but impractical method. If it is, then as the article mentions there may be some inexpensive and practical countermeasures to such a system, such as making the exterior of the missile body into a multi-faceted mirror able to reflect both IR and radar energy (although doing the same for the nose cone might prove more difficult due to aerodynamics). steve From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 22:35:05 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:35:05 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chicken? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Jim Choate > Sent: 22 July, 2001 22:23 > To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com > Subject: RE: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > > On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > And I'll match that amount if Inchoate's LSAT score exceeds > mine. Put up > > or shut up, Jimbo. > > Why? I couldn't give a shit less what your score was on any test. Don't > care what your IQ is either. > > What's my motivation? Yours and the black horse petootie clearly have > nothing more than a ad hominim. > > You got nothing I want. > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > B.A. Behrend > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 22:41:26 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:41:26 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Petro wrote: > Willing to make me the same offer? No thanks, you're neither a horse's ass nor an intellectual lightweight like Jimbo. No fun there. :-D S a n d y From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 22:43:25 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:43:25 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:18 PM -0700 7/22/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Ray Dillinger wrote: > >> This is just a guess, but what *I* >> think motivates these people is >> frustration and disenfranchisement. >> It's not that any substantial group >> of them want any particular thing, >> it's just that the whole bunch of >> them feel that they don't have a >> voice in what's happening any more. >> The "globalization" people are >> consulting *each other* instead of >> the people affected by the laws to >> figure out what laws they should >> pass, and the people are pissed off >> because they don't feel that they >> have any input into the process. > >There are several possible answers to what you have written. First, at >least theoretically, your "'globalization' people" were elected to represent >the people. In a democratic system, the people's "input" into the process >is the ballot box choice of their representatives. Theoretically my ass. I'd bet my wife's next paycheck that at least 90% of those bastards are appointed. >That's theory. Personally, I think the problem is the idea that we need >laws (i.e., the threat of violence) to address the problems in question. The problem is that we've got a bunch of pansy ass fascists running this country, and they are willing to hand large parts of our sovereignty over to a committee made up mostly of other fascists and socialists. While I disagree with (what little) philosophy is behind these protestors, I have to agree that what is going on behind those doors is *not* in the best interests of America, nor IMO in the best interest of the "poorer" nations in this world. >> Capitalism from the worker's >> perspective means working longer >> hours, getting paid more, and >> winding up under family pressure >> (because your family is an >> intensely and effectively >> targeted market) to spend it all >> on stupid stuff. Furbys, TV's, >> and barbie dolls, for god's sake. >> So at the end of the day they >> have more stupid crap but they're >> poorer and more tired and have >> less time to spend with their >> family - and after a while they >> get frustrated. > >I'm sorry, the Furby definition of capitalism isn't very cogent or helpful. > >> But none, or few, of them see it >> in exactly those terms. They're >> just angry and frustrated and they >> don't really know why. > >Why don't they know why? Can't they read? I have so sympathy for militant >ignorance when the world is awash in information about how things work. The problem is that *most* of the information is wrong, and the stuff that is accurate says basically "Unless you are *really* lucky, *really* smart, or born rich, you are never going to be in the top 5%, and most likely you don't deserve to be there". This really annoys people who have been raised to think that they are brilliant, and really don't want to settle for working 40+ hours a week, forcing themselves to *not* buy stoopid trendy shit so as to save for their retirement, and then retire when they are too old to really enjoy it. They don't like that. They want to work a "fulfilling" job, make 100k a year, and have the government pay for their retirement when they don't feel like working any more. Life ain't like that. As much as I hate "bumper sticker" Philosophy, I saw one recently that these people need to take to heart: Life is not a beach, it's a mountain. And yes, I realize I'm painting with a broad brush. Many of these protestors simply don't like that their lifestyle/standard of living is changing becuase technology has made it possible for some uneducated (or undereducated) third worlder to do their job at 1/10th the price (or less). Some are genuinely concerned (I'm thinking back to the Seattle Protests) that NAFTA is allowing (supposedly, I don't know the truth) trucks and drivers into the country that have sub-standard safety inspections and sub-standard training (although I know that many of the American Trucks aren't exactly up to code). There are a plethora of reasons why people are protesting, and many more reasons that other people who aren't the kind to protest don't like what is going on. >> The few issues they believe in >> are getting ignored... >Which issues are those? So far, I haven't heard of ANY issues raised by the >rioters that are being ignored. Controversial/unproven issues such as >"global warming" are being discussed ad nausea. The main reason the >governments of the world aren't "doing something" is because no one knows >what really needs to be done. Ignorant rioters THINK they know what needs >to be done, but there is no reason to believe they know squat about the >subject for which they claim to have such passion about. Opinions--and >that's all we're talking about here--are like assholes; everyone has one. Come on, "global warming" is a fact. We've gotten about .6 degrees warmer in the last 100 years. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING BEFORE NEW YORK IS UNDER WATER. From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 22:51:21 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:51:21 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inchoate blurted: > I couldn't give a shit less what > your score was on any test. Don't > care what your IQ is either. Of course you do Jimbo, but I guess you already know your limits. > What's my motivation? $96 bucks and a good har har on poor old Sandy and arrogant young BU. > Yours and the black horse petootie > clearly have nothing more than a > ad hominim. > > You got nothing I want. Except a better understanding and use of the English language. ;-D The test is on October 6 at the University of Texas at Austin and Huston-Tillotson College. The LSAT (Law School Admission Test) is a half-day standardized test required for admission to all 197 law schools that are members of the Law School Admission Council (LSAC). It provides a standard measure of reading and verbal reasoning skills... "Reading and verbal reasoning"? Why it should be a walk in the park for a smart cookie like Jimbo. [Irony alert.] S a n d y From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Sun Jul 22 20:06:00 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:06:00 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444C8@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found ES.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: ES", was sent from David Ambrose and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From measl at mfn.org Sun Jul 22 21:21:34 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:21:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fucking trolls.... On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:07:28 -0700 > From: Sandy Sandfort > Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > To: Cypherpunks > Subject: CDR: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > C'punks, > > Here's an excellent opportunity for our favorite resident buffoon to strut > his lawyer-wannabe chops. The next LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test) will be > administered on October 6, 2001. > > Jim, PLEASE take the test. I'd love to see your test score. And, hey, > maybe you'll get a high enough score to tempt you to go to law school > (unlikely, given your illogical thought processes, but even a blind chicken > finds a seed now and then). > > It's only 96 bucks. Sign up for the test at: > > https://www5.lsac.org/reggie/cgi-bin/r.exe?To=tintro.htm&from=rint.htm > > > S a n d y > _____________________________________________________________ > > If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed > by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? > > W W > \*\ /*/ > The Road Kill Group |*| |*| > /*////|\\\\*\ |\- > (|||||||||||||\((x)\ > -======-------------||---:> > (|||||||||||||/((x)/ > \*\\\\|////*/ |/- > |*| |*| > /*/ \*\ > M M > > verbigeration (vuhr-bij-uh-RAY-shun) noun > > Obsessive repetition of meaningless words and phrases. > > [From Latin verbigerare, to talk, chat, from verbum word + gerere, to carry > on + -ation.] > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Sun Jul 22 23:28:41 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:28:41 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:21 PM -0500 7/22/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: >> At 12:32 PM -0500 7/21/01, Benson Schliesser wrote: >> >> We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect the LEAs >> >to enforce all laws that are on the books. >> >> >> >> If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the >> >legislature and the Executive branch. >> > >> > >> >And the Jewish population of Europe during WW2 had no right to complain >> >about the Nazi soldiers just doing their job, right... >> >> If one can't distinguish between the enforcement of laws of >> questionable constitutional validity (yes, *questionable*) and >> genocide, then one should probably load the bong again, watch cartoons >> on TV and stay far, far away from the ballot box. >> >> In the grand scheme of things, Ashcroft believes (or appears to) >> in the Constitution. He may have some differences of opinion with many >> or most on this list, but he believes in it. >> >> That is better than we've had in at least 6 years, probably more. > >You are arguing a mere degree of difference Petro. The fact that Ashcroft >"believes in the constitution" (like YOU would have any way to be imbued >with such knowledge!) is irrelevent. > >Even if we accept your assertion that Ashcroft believes, if he is willing >to enforce clearly violative laws, then is the *enemy*. My point, which I obviously did not make clearly enough, is that Ashcroft appears, unlike at least his immediate predecessor, to believe in rule of law, rather than rule by force. This is not "a mere degree of difference", it is a fundamental difference. Reno, by actions at least, demonstrated a clear lack of regard for the constitution and the concept of "rule of law". This lead to things like Waco, and the DoJ arguing that the sniper at Ruby Ridge couldn't be tried by the state since he was under Federal orders. Will Ashcroft prove to be any different? I don't know. Another point you bring up is that a LEO should not enforce laws that "clearly" violate the constitution. A LEO cannot do that *and still be a LEO*. He can refuse by resigning, but if he simply takes the position that he will only enforce laws he thinks are constitutional he causes a violation of one of the fundamental underpinnings of the constitution, that all people are equal under the law, and that the law is supposed to be equally applied. That may be less than clear, let me try it another way: One of the fundamental features of a society that is built around the concept of "rule of law" is that the law is knowable by the people, and that they have a reasonable expectation of the consequences should they break that law. When you have a situation where you give carte blanche to LEOs to decide for themselves what is constitutional, you violate that. What one LEO may decide is perfectly constitutional, another may believe is unconstitutional resulting in even more uneven application of the law than we have today. Let us take a constitutional amendment that is under debate, and one that Ashcroft has recently made a statement about. The 2nd. It states that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Now, this is, to some people, fairly clear. The government cannot infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. But it doesn't mean that the government cannot make any laws at all regarding firearms, does it? Where is the line? So then you have a situation where, for example, a County Sheriff could interpret the constitution in a very broad way, ordering his officers *not* to arrest anyone carrying a conceal weapon, even tho' it's nominally illegal in his state, while the various city and town police departments take a slightly narrower interpretation--that conceal weapons are illegal. Then you have a situation where what is considered legal and proper changes depending on who pulls you over for speeding. Furthermore, let's say that that Sheriff gets voted out of office, or is replaced for some other reason, and you get a new Sheriff who disagrees *slightly* with the old Sheriff, and orders his Deputies to start arresting people who violate that states (possibly perfectly constitutional) prohibition against carrying a concealed weapon. Now you have a situation where what was previously "legal" (in the sense that you weren't going to get arrested for it) change without (or with little) notice. I'm sure that with a little thought I could come up with a better scenario that more clearly elucidates the point. It's far better to expect, and in fact *insist* that LEOs enforce the law equally and to the letter than to insist that each one of them figure out for themselves what is right and proper for them to enforce. Then pressure the Courts and the Legislative/Executive branch to make the laws clear and rapidly judge them on their constitutionality. From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 23:29:27 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:29:27 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Petro wrote: > I'd bet my wife's next paycheck that > at least 90% of those bastards are > appointed. I wouldn't take that bet because I'm sure you are right. However, that just begs the question. Ultimately those bastards were appointed by someone who was elected democratically. (Now don't hang any signs on me. I'm not saying this is a "good thing" only that it still falls within the democratic paradigm.) > The problem is that we've got > a bunch of pansy ass fascists > running this country, and they > are willing to hand large parts > of our sovereignty over to a > committee made up mostly of > other fascists and socialists. No argument there, but I think the barbarians at the gate (the rioters) would be infinitely worse. > While I disagree with (what > little) philosophy is behind > these protestors, I have to > agree that what is going on > behind those doors is *not* > in the best interests of > America, nor IMO in the best > interest of the "poorer" > nations in this world. You are right again, but, as above, the rioters' "cure" would be worse than the disease. A plague on both there houses. > >I have so sympathy for militant > >ignorance when the world is awash > >in information about how things work. > > The problem is that *most* of the > information is wrong... Theodore Sturgeon once began a speech at a science fiction convention by saying, "90% of science fiction is crap." After the stunned silence he added, "90% of EVERYTHING is crap." Sure most of the information is wrong; so what? That's where critical thinking has to come in. The rioters are clearly on an emotional trip not an intellectual one. > They want to work a "fulfilling" > job, make 100k a year, and have > the government pay for their > retirement when they don't feel > like working any more. Yeah, and I want to fuck Claudia Schiffer. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. The world is as it is, not as how we would wish it to be. The Genoa rioters are throwing a childish tantrum. When (if) they grow up, maybe they will do what is really necessary to change the system. > Come on, "global warming" is a fact. > We've gotten about .6 degrees warmer > in the last 100 years. WE HAVE TO DO > SOMETHING BEFORE NEW YORK IS UNDER > WATER. Yup, I'm buying my beachfront property in the Sierras, even as we speak. My next door neighbor is Kevin Costner. :-D S a n d y From bear at sonic.net Sun Jul 22 23:30:38 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >There are several possible answers to what you have written. First, at >least theoretically, your "'globalization' people" were elected to represent >the people. In a democratic system, the people's "input" into the process >is the ballot box choice of their representatives. Unless faced with a "choice" between tweedledum and tweedledee. Which is the status quo these days at least in the US. In nations with proportional representation, things may be different. >> Also, the personal pressure on them >> is a little higher every year as >> the forces of capitalism get more >> ruthless and efficient at exploiting >> them as a market and as cheap labor... > >I'm not sure what you are talking about. What are the "forces of >capitalism" to which you refer? Personally, I try to avoid the word >"capitalism" at all. First, it's a pejorative Marxist term. Second, >everybody seems to have a different definition. Hmm. What I was referring to is the science of marketing, and the fact that the data available to do it is ever more precise and personal. When marketing and advertisement get sufficiently sophisticated, the "average" person feels more pressure to buy stuff. In the aggregate, we see a lower savings rate, but on the personal level, I think it's a source of stress -- a feeling of being on a treadmill. This is one of the main reasons I no longer indulge in advertising-supported media myself; I wasn't able to handle it and keep my tendency toward depression in check. >If you mean "free market economics" I totally disagree with you. If you >mean government welfare for favored businesses, well, we might have some >common ground there. Clear definitions make all the difference in the >world. Nah. Free market economics is fine, and necessary, the way water is fine and necessary. But lately it's seemed a lot like the water is boiling hot and under about ten atmospheres of pressure. It gets a little stifling when people can't or don't control how much pressure (as advertising etc) they are exposed to. >I'm sorry, the Furby definition of capitalism isn't very cogent or helpful. Let's put it this way; why would a rational person or even a sane person purchase a furby? It is useless; it is annoying; its expected lifespan is under five weeks; your kids will be unhappy when (not if) it breaks; and its price exceeds that of two good meals at a nice restaurant. I maintain that people buy furbys (and most other "fad" items) because of pressure and false expectations raised by carefully- designed advertising, and then fall into inevitable disappointment with the real item. In short, they are acting irrationally, and have given people a vested interest in maintaining their lack of mental health. I believe in capitalism where it meets real needs; where rational buyers meet rational sellers, where the customers know what they're buying and will in fact be well-served by it, I am delighted to be part of the transaction. But the science of marketing is increasingly about arresting the processes of rational thought, and even the processes of mental health, in order to induce people to buy crap which they don't need, won't or can't use, or can't get any real satisfaction from. Sometimes I wish I could grab people and shake them and yell, "no, the car will not come equipped with a bikini model. Make your decision about the car, not about the woman..." It's not *explicit* deception. But I believe that the marketer today, and particularly the marketer in posession of personal information, unfairly distorts people's perceptions to a point where the average consumer is no longer an equal rational agent in financial transactions. People are buying things that they later regret buying. On the one hand, you can call it "survival pressure" and hope that the next generation will be smarter. On the other hand, it's just one more example of the kind of things that make life suck if you're on the recieving end. And on the gripping hand, it's why some of us are concerned about the use of private information by marketers. This is why people feel exploited by "capitalism", giving rise to some of the "anti-capitalist" rhetoric that's come out of the protests. Bear From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Sun Jul 22 20:31:06 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:31:06 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444CA@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Rotary Monies Accounting.xls.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Rotary Monies Accounting", was sent from Marc Moreau and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 21:49:39 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:49:39 -0500 Subject: The Register - FBI becomes Copyright '911' Message-ID: <3B5BACE2.4E0232D1@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20548.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 21:54:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:54:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: How bad do you two drones want it? I don't work for free (as any self-respecting C-A-C-L should respect). 3 months, at say $10k/month sounds fair to stroke your egos. When I get the check with cash up front you got it. Put up, or shut up. (and no, I wouldn't become a fucking lawyer under any circumstances. I got more self respect.) On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: > I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he presents a valid ETS > score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandy Sandfort" > To: "Cypherpunks" > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:07 PM > Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > > > C'punks, > > > > Here's an excellent opportunity for our favorite resident buffoon to strut > > his lawyer-wannabe chops. The next LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test) will be > > administered on October 6, 2001. > > > > Jim, PLEASE take the test. I'd love to see your test score. And, hey, > > maybe you'll get a high enough score to tempt you to go to law school > > (unlikely, given your illogical thought processes, but even a blind chicken > > finds a seed now and then). > > > > It's only 96 bucks. Sign up for the test at: > > > > https://www5.lsac.org/reggie/cgi-bin/r.exe?To=tintro.htm&from=rint.htm > > > > > > S a n d y > > _____________________________________________________________ > > > > If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed > > by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? > > > > W W > > \*\ /*/ > > The Road Kill Group |*| |*| > > /*////|\\\\*\ |\- > > (|||||||||||||\((x)\ > > -======-------------||---:> > > (|||||||||||||/((x)/ > > \*\\\\|////*/ |/- > > |*| |*| > > /*/ \*\ > > M M > > > > verbigeration (vuhr-bij-uh-RAY-shun) noun > > > > Obsessive repetition of meaningless words and phrases. > > > > [From Latin verbigerare, to talk, chat, from verbum word + gerere, to carry > > on + -ation.] > > > -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Sun Jul 22 23:57:39 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:57:39 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ray Dillinger wrote: > What I was referring to [by the > term, "capitalism"] is the > science of marketing... Well that's a new one. First, I think referring to the "science" of marketing is a bit of an overstatement. Sort of what marketeers might like you to think they do. (Hmm, maybe it's working.) Second, this soi-disant "science" doesn't seem to work of me or thee. Of course you could take the elitist position, that we are better than the "average"... Third, it doesn't explain why so many businesses fail (1 in 12 in the US). If they are so good at selling us crap we don't need, why can't they stay in business? > Let's put it this way; why would > a rational person or even a sane > person purchase a furby? Because their kid wants it? > It is useless;... Not if it entertains. > it is annoying;... To some people. That's why there are horse races, differences of opinion. > its expected lifespan is under > five weeks;... So are porterhouse steaks and orgasms. I still like them both. > your kids will be unhappy when (not > if) it breaks;... Then I guess we shouldn't let them have ANY toys? > and its price exceeds that of two > good meals at a nice restaurant... See "horse race" comment above. > I maintain that people buy furbys > (and most other "fad" items) > because of pressure and false > expectations raised by carefully- > designed advertising... So why don't you have a furby? I guess it didn't work, huh? Assuming, arguendo, that this pressure is all that great, think of it as evolution in action. We are breeding a more advertising-resistant human. Or as you put it: > On the one hand, you can call it > "survival pressure" and hope that > the next generation will be smarter. > > ...This is why people feel exploited > by "capitalism", giving rise to some > of the "anti-capitalist" rhetoric > that's come out of the protests. Are you sure you aren't just projecting? ;-D S a n d y From petro at bounty.org Mon Jul 23 00:03:30 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:03:30 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:29 PM -0700 7/22/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Petro wrote: > >> I'd bet my wife's next paycheck that >> at least 90% of those bastards are >> appointed. > >I wouldn't take that bet because I'm sure you are right. However, that just >begs the question. Ultimately those bastards were appointed by someone who >was elected democratically. (Now don't hang any signs on me. I'm not >saying this is a "good thing" only that it still falls within the democratic >paradigm.) Not really (and that's not "begging the question"). Even if one assumes that the G8 reps from this country are directly appointed by elected officials (and it's not a bet I'd be willing to take), I'd bet that most of the others are not. And the people who advise this Rep are even less accountable to the electorate. >> The problem is that we've got >> a bunch of pansy ass fascists >> running this country, and they >> are willing to hand large parts >> of our sovereignty over to a >> committee made up mostly of >> other fascists and socialists. > >No argument there, but I think the barbarians at the gate (the rioters) >would be infinitely worse. Nah, most of them don't have guns. >> >I have so sympathy for militant >> >ignorance when the world is awash >> >in information about how things work. >> >> The problem is that *most* of the >> information is wrong... > >Theodore Sturgeon once began a speech at a science fiction convention by >saying, "90% of science fiction is crap." After the stunned silence he >added, "90% of EVERYTHING is crap." Oh, and optimist. >Sure most of the information is wrong; so what? That's where critical >thinking has to come in. The rioters are clearly on an emotional trip not >an intellectual one. > >> They want to work a "fulfilling" >> job, make 100k a year, and have >> the government pay for their >> retirement when they don't feel >> like working any more. > >Yeah, and I want to fuck Claudia Schiffer. If wishes were horses, beggars Who doesn't? >would ride. The world is as it is, not as how we would wish it to be. The >Genoa rioters are throwing a childish tantrum. When (if) they grow up, >maybe they will do what is really necessary to change the system. The system, at least the part that really bothers them, cannot be changed. The laws of physics, as near a we can tell are, outside of a black hole, fairly impervious to change. > >> Come on, "global warming" is a fact. >> We've gotten about .6 degrees warmer >> in the last 100 years. WE HAVE TO DO >> SOMETHING BEFORE NEW YORK IS UNDER >> WATER. > >Yup, I'm buying my beachfront property in the Sierras, even as we speak. My >next door neighbor is Kevin Costner. :-D Well, at least you have a moving target to shoot at. From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 00:07:54 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:07:54 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <20010723064131.1901.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: Dr. Evil wrote: > Wow, finally some entertainment > for us on the old c-punk list! > Maybe they could do a "reality > TV" show based on this. Well you know how it is. Every so often that old case of Schaden-freude kicks in and I've just gotta tease the monkey. BTW, do you think poor Jimbo ever gets laid? (Other than a rare mercy fuck or when he pays for it, that is). S a n d y From goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 17:15:02 2001 From: goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com (goin2winn2001 at yahoo.com) Date: 23 Jul 2001 00:15:02 -0000 Subject: EASY WAY TO GET A FLORIDA BEACH HOME Message-ID: <20010723001502.3958.qmail@intrepid.getresponse.com> THE MOST RELIABLE AND EASIEST WAY TO GET A HOME FREE TODAY! Dear Friend, Please dont throw away what may be the only and greatest chance youll ever have to really, truly get ahead financially! I know that once you start using my money-making method, your life will improve 100 times! You will be able to spend more time with your family and doing what you really want. I know your e-mail box is full of offers from people who want to help you get rich quick. Ive seen them all. 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PLEASE VISIT : http://%33%35%30%34%32%36%35%32%30%32/P%49%74%68r%65%65 NOW --- To remove yourself from further mailings, visit this webpage: http://GetResponse.com/r.cgi?a=internetmarketingsolution&e=cypherpunks_Xyssz.com&i=0 From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 22:21:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:21:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Engineer for Haloid Corp. arrested for producing circumvention device" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > Large corporations like nothing more than having a powerful central > government freeze the status quo. > And big companies love it when little competitors are frozen out. > The DCMA is just another way to freeze out innovation. Those who try So much for 'crypto anarchy' and 'anarcho capitalist' creating a better world with less 'coercion'. If they can't do it one way, they'd do it another. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 22:23:16 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:23:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > And I'll match that amount if Inchoate's LSAT score exceeds mine. Put up > or shut up, Jimbo. Why? I couldn't give a shit less what your score was on any test. Don't care what your IQ is either. What's my motivation? Yours and the black horse petootie clearly have nothing more than a ad hominim. You got nothing I want. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 00:39:36 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:39:36 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Petro wrote: > Even if one assumes that the > G8 reps from this country are > directly appointed by elected > officials (and it's not a bet > I'd be willing to take), I'd > bet that most of the others > are not. Maybe yes, maybe no, but the G8 are all nominally democratic. Anything to back up your assumption? Anyway, democracy is just the dictatorship of the proletariat. I'm against ALL dictatorships. As I've been saying, having either of those sets of monkeys at Genoa having any power over me is not my ideal. > >No argument there, but I think > >the barbarians at the gate (the > >rioters) would be infinitely worse. > > Nah, most of them don't have guns. It was a hypothetical statement. If the rioters were in charge they WOULD have the guns, by definition. Were that the case, I think they would be infinitely worse. > >..."90% of EVERYTHING is crap." > > Oh, and optimist. Yeah, I thought so too. > The system, at least the part that > really bothers them, cannot be > changed. > > The laws of physics, as near a we > can tell are, outside of a black > hole, fairly impervious to change. So your beef is against physics? Man, and I thought those rioters were wishful thinkers. What's at the top of your list, gravity? Rock on. S a n d y From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 22:40:42 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:40:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Chicken? No thanks, I had Pork Chops for dinner. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 23:28:08 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 01:28:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010722222913.0445d118@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > I wonder what the destructive mechanism is for this system? There was an article in IEEE Spectrum last year (I think) on one of the systems. The main failure mechanism is weakening of the aeroshell and due to increased loading the missile comes apart. The same sort of thing happened in Desert Storm with some of the Scuds that used plywood sheeting instead of aluminum. It's one of the primary factors of their high failure rate. > Heat by radiant absorption seems an obvious but impractical method. It's the one they use primarily. > If it is, then as the article mentions there may be some inexpensive > and practical countermeasures to such a system, such as making the exterior > of the missile body into a multi-faceted mirror able to reflect both IR and > radar energy (although doing the same for the nose cone might prove more > difficult due to aerodynamics). While reflecting the thermal energy is a good idea, doing the same for radar isn't since it allows more conventional systems to be used to track the missile, contrary to the goal of delivering large quantities time on target. Of course reflecting the IR allows one to use a 'dual component' system whereby another missile homes in on the reflected laser (standard IR designator sort of stuff). Another aspect is to beam the exhaust. By creating hydrodynamic shockwaves in the exhaust cone it should become possible to cause the engine to come apart due to back-pressure or simply creating ancillary thrust vectors and causing the guidance system to mis-calculate. Thrust attack like this must take place very early in the launch or at each stage seperation. You've probably got no more than 30-60 seconds out of a 30 minute flight (for a ICBM that isn't sub launched, then you've got single/double stage and about 15 minutes max). While the current systems won't do it, it should even be possible with high power short pulse width systems to heat the air in front of the rocket to cause turbulence. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 23:36:23 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 01:36:23 -0500 Subject: kuro5hin.org || Carlo Giuliani: From Lyncher to Martyr Message-ID: <3B5BC5E7.58D04432@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/22/91947/1305 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jul 22 23:42:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 01:42:48 -0500 Subject: kuro5hin.org || Jury Nullification: You Have the Power Message-ID: <3B5BC768.C476B978@ssz.com> http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/20/41642/3078 -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kenny_maekit at hotmail.com Sun Jul 22 18:54:12 2001 From: kenny_maekit at hotmail.com (Warren Piece) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 01:54:12 +0000 Subject: G8, issues, and familiarity Message-ID: Jim wrote: >CNN's poll is asking "Are you familiar with the issues behind the G8 >summit". >58% said "No". >Perhaps the protesting will help motivate more to educate themselves. if only that were the case. the exact opposite has already taken place. the protesting has done nothing more than take the focus off of the g8 talks and place it upon the riots/rioters. the g8 talks would have only been briefly mentioned in the media if there had been not rioting to sensationalize it. the riots only allow the reporters to give the public something that they will want to watch (read death, destruction, and mayhem). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From petro at bounty.org Mon Jul 23 04:15:49 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 04:15:49 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:30 PM -0700 7/22/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >>I'm not sure what you are talking about. What are the "forces of >>capitalism" to which you refer? Personally, I try to avoid the word >>"capitalism" at all. First, it's a pejorative Marxist term. Second, >>everybody seems to have a different definition. >Hmm. What I was referring to is the science of marketing, and >the fact that the data available to do it is ever more precise >and personal. When marketing and advertisement get sufficiently >sophisticated, the "average" person feels more pressure to buy >stuff. In the aggregate, we see a lower savings rate, but on >the personal level, I think it's a source of stress -- a feeling >of being on a treadmill. This is one of the main reasons I no >longer indulge in advertising-supported media myself; I wasn't >able to handle it and keep my tendency toward depression in check. I recently got into an argument with an (apparently) elderly lady on a Firearms rights mailing list who was incredibly annoyed that because of her arthritis she was going to have to "live with the pain" the rest of her life. She somehow thought that this was a new and unique thing. The only thing new about it was that *she didn't expect it*. My father grew up during the depression, he lived in what today would be called a ghetto, except most of the people there weren't black. He often went barefoot in the summer so that they wouldn't spend money on Shoes. His father died when he was 14, and his older brother supported him and their mother until my father dropped out of school (at 16) to work. There was a *lot* that the non-specialized, non-personalized media pushed in those days that many people couldn't afford, that they saw in the newspapers or heard about on the radio, or saw in the stores that they couldn't afford, and for the most part their parents *told them so*. They learned, as my parents taught me, that you can't always have what you want. The pressures of commercial advertising--in the sense of mass media--have been with us for as long as there has been mass media. You either deal with it as an adult, or you deal with it as a child. To complain that people are making you want something and they should stop is definitely in the realm of the latter. I say this as someone who has a bit more credit card debt than he really should, so I understand the consumeristic drive, but it's really all about self-disipline, now isn't it? Which is one of the things people who rail against capitalism are really complaining about. >>If you mean "free market economics" I totally disagree with you. If you >>mean government welfare for favored businesses, well, we might have some >>common ground there. Clear definitions make all the difference in the >>world. > >Nah. Free market economics is fine, and necessary, the way water >is fine and necessary. But lately it's seemed a lot like the water >is boiling hot and under about ten atmospheres of pressure. It >gets a little stifling when people can't or don't control how much >pressure (as advertising etc) they are exposed to. You left out one word in there. Won't. >>I'm sorry, the Furby definition of capitalism isn't very cogent or helpful. > >Let's put it this way; why would a rational person or even a sane >person purchase a furby? It is useless; it is annoying; its expected Mostly to stop their children from wailing about wanting one. Children are, almost by definition, not sane people. >lifespan is under five weeks; your kids will be unhappy when (not if) >it breaks; and its price exceeds that of two good meals at a nice >restaurant. I maintain that people buy furbys (and most other "fad" >items) because of pressure and false expectations raised by carefully- >designed advertising, and then fall into inevitable disappointment >with the real item. In short, they are acting irrationally, and >have given people a vested interest in maintaining their lack of >mental health. As someone who has 12 computers laying around his "office" along with innumerable parts, piles of half-read books, 2 motorcycles, 3 bicycles etc. I couldn't agree with you more. >I believe in capitalism where it meets real needs; where rational >buyers meet rational sellers, where the customers know what they're >buying and will in fact be well-served by it, I am delighted to be >part of the transaction. > >But the science of marketing is increasingly about arresting the >processes of rational thought, and even the processes of mental >health, in order to induce people to buy crap which they don't >need, won't or can't use, or can't get any real satisfaction from. Nonsense. Advertising only works on adults (or rather rational people) when it shows them something they already want. >Sometimes I wish I could grab people and shake them and yell, "no, >the car will not come equipped with a bikini model. Make your >decision about the car, not about the woman..." It's not *explicit* >deception. But I believe that the marketer today, and particularly >the marketer in posession of personal information, unfairly distorts >people's perceptions to a point where the average consumer is no >longer an equal rational agent in financial transactions. People >are buying things that they later regret buying. Marketing has not gotten anywhere near that personal. I don't receive car commercials with a picture of a buxom oriental woman wearing red PVC undergarments, while my neighbor get his with a picture of one of maplethorpe's models. Now, granted part of this is because it's not commercial feasible, and I doubt it ever will be. No, the most that "modern advertising science" has been able to do is to direct clients NOT to advertise in places where they won't get a ROI, in favor of places that WILL. That, and these days you rarely get mail addressed to "Dear Customer" as laser printers can now make that "Dear Mr. CypherPunk". If you can't see through something like that, you *deserve* to be deep in debt. >On the one hand, you can call it "survival pressure" and hope that >the next generation will be smarter. On the other hand, it's It's not a question of being "smarter", it's a question of self disipline. My generation (well, most of them) didn't need it, so we never learned it (like I said, most of them). From what I've seen, the generation following us doesn't have it either. >just one more example of the kind of things that make life suck >if you're on the recieving end. And on the gripping hand, it's >why some of us are concerned about the use of private information >by marketers. This is why people feel exploited by "capitalism", >giving rise to some of the "anti-capitalist" rhetoric that's come >out of the protests. Funny thing, one of the guys I work with, a reasonably competent Systems Administrator (meaning that he has the ability to think logically when pressed) rants about corporate greed and all that, but he's working at (at least) his second start-up, stock options and all. From petro at bounty.org Mon Jul 23 04:26:07 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 04:26:07 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Petro wrote: > >> Even if one assumes that the >> G8 reps from this country are >> directly appointed by elected >> officials (and it's not a bet >> I'd be willing to take), I'd >> bet that most of the others >> are not. > >Maybe yes, maybe no, but the G8 are all nominally democratic. Nominally being the key word. > Anything to >back up your assumption? Nothing I can point to, mostly vague rememberings of stuff I'd read. I may be wrong about the G8--I may have it a little confused with the WTO. It's all part of the same bullshit in my mind. > Anyway, democracy is just the dictatorship of the >proletariat. I'm against ALL dictatorships. As I've been saying, having >either of those sets of monkeys at Genoa having any power over me is not my >ideal. I'm not arguing that. > >> >No argument there, but I think >> >the barbarians at the gate (the >> >rioters) would be infinitely worse. >> >> Nah, most of them don't have guns. > >It was a hypothetical statement. If the rioters were in charge they WOULD >have the guns, by definition. Were that the case, I think they would be >infinitely worse. Well, given that the fascists we have in charge now are *relatively* rational and reading from pretty much the same playbook (meaning the are fairly well organized relatively speaking), you are probably right. With the protestors in charge we'd wind up in a war. >> >..."90% of EVERYTHING is crap." >> Oh, and optimist. >Yeah, I thought so too. I did time in Art School. It's more like 99%. > >> The system, at least the part that >> really bothers them, cannot be >> changed. >> >> The laws of physics, as near a we >> can tell are, outside of a black >> hole, fairly impervious to change. > >So your beef is against physics? Man, and I thought those rioters were >wishful thinkers. What's at the top of your list, gravity? Rock on. It's not my beef, personally I'm a big fan of gravity. And friction. It keeps my motorcycle (mostly) on the ground, and friction keeps me from sliding into cars as often. Besides, without gravity wheelies wouldn't be nearly as much fun. From drevil at sidereal.kz Sun Jul 22 23:41:31 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 23 Jul 2001 06:41:31 -0000 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: (message from Jim Choate on Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:40:42 -0500 (CDT)) References: Message-ID: <20010723064131.1901.qmail@sidereal.kz> > On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Chicken? > > No thanks, I had Pork Chops for dinner. Wow, finally some entertainment for us on the old c-punk list! Maybe they could do a "reality TV" show based on this. From dog3 at ns.charc.net Mon Jul 23 03:47:08 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 06:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What the Swiss have In-Reply-To: <200107202010.QAA02986@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Sandman wrote: > # > # The part I like is that the wording suggests that the writer > # is surprises that a population can have a lot of guns and "yet > # maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate." Duh. > > A different society. > > It wouldn't work here. It does work here, Here, there are a lot of guns in the population. In places "Here" where there aren't any idiotic gun laws, the law abiding peacable folks keep guns. In these places there are remarkably low homicide and armed crime rates. There is a direct correlation between the restrictive gun laws and crime, the higher the crime, the tighter the restriction on peacable citizens right to bear arms. The tighter the restriction on peaceable citizens right to bear arms, the higher the crime. Why this simple logic eludes the anti-gunners is a complete and total mystery to me. It can only be deleberate. From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 05:10:29 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:10:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Petro wrote: > > > Even if one assumes that the > > G8 reps from this country are > > directly appointed by elected > > officials (and it's not a bet > > I'd be willing to take), I'd > > bet that most of the others > > are not. > > Maybe yes, maybe no, but the G8 are all nominally democratic. Anything to > back up your assumption? Yes, the vast majority of government employees are not elected. > Anyway, democracy is just the dictatorship of the proletariat. How can a group be a dictator, which is by definition a single individual? > > >No argument there, but I think > > >the barbarians at the gate (the > > >rioters) would be infinitely worse. > > > > Nah, most of them don't have guns. > > It was a hypothetical statement. Spin doctor bullshit. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 05:14:58 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:14:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > You're saying it, "propaganda value". Missiles are only vulnerable during > boost phase, while they still have fuel onboard. Bull. Missiles are vulnerable to various assaults during their entire flight. The aerodynamic forces during boost and terminal flight operations, vacuum effects (rupture a fuel tank and watch that baby gyrate). > You need serious energy flux and tracking precision to terminate a > warhead. Which has been demonstrated to be extant since the mid-80's when they shot the first satellite down with a high altitude fighter. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From info at losangelescenter.org Mon Jul 23 07:34:18 2001 From: info at losangelescenter.org (info at losangelescenter.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:34:18 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107231437.HAA02668@toad.com> Dear Colleague, The Los Angeles Center for Traumatic Stress and Sudden Bereavement is pleased to present The Black Hole of Trauma featuring Bessel van der Kolk, M.D. This all day CE event will take place in Chicago on October 20, 2001. Dr. van der Kolk will be discussing the assessment, diagnosis and treatment of PTSD, including Childhood Trauma, EMDR and Pharmacological Interventions. Please visit our website www.losangelescenter.org for more information. Registration for this event is $155 before July 31 and $185 thereafter. To register, please call (800) 307-0470. Best regards, LAC-TSSB To be removed from this mail list, please respond with"Remove" in the subject line. From dog3 at ns.charc.net Mon Jul 23 04:35:55 2001 From: dog3 at ns.charc.net (cubic-dog) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meatspace, In-Reply-To: <3B59B24E.12605.1410C56@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > snip > > Aryan nation was destroyed by the feds. Black panthers were destroyed by the black panthers. > (add) -with a little help from the feds. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > S0OsOWCmZlXsQxA3vOqVNy48twxfCqAtk3mQhxxw > 4qP/2jAlvTkWMWpRDxAvRHTx4bzkM/LViaYeM56b8 From la095-001 at mail.ru Sun Jul 22 20:51:26 2001 From: la095-001 at mail.ru (ADMIN) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:51:26 +0400 Subject: 鏝襜禖 鐓謽 (沓齕瘔)... Message-ID: <200107230355.UAA23422@toad.com> ============================================================================ 苺赲訄迠訄迮邾迮 訄邾 邽 郋郈郋迡訄! 迮迡郅訄迣訄迮邾 訄迮邾 赲郇邽邾訄郇邽, 郈郋郅郇郋 迣郋郋赲迮 邽邾. 苤郋邽邾郋 郋迡郇郋邿 邽邾 400 . 迮. 苠迮郅迮郋郇 迡郅 郈訄赲郋郕: +7 (095) 238-4779, 782-2707. ============================================================================ 1. "苠苤" - 18 苤 2. "苤苠" - 18 苤 3. "苳-" - 18 苤 4. "-苠" - 18 苤 5. "苤" - 15 苤 6. "苠苤" - 15 苤 7. "" - 15 苤 8. "-苠" - 15 苤 9. "衩-苤苠" - 15 苤 ============================================================================ 苠迮郅迮郋郇 迡郅 郈訄赲郋郕: +7 (095) 238-4779, 782-2707. **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** P.S. - 訄郅郕訄 郈郋邽郱赲郋迡邽 迮迡邽郇郋迠迡 邽 郈郋赲郋 郇迮 訇迡迮. 郋 赲郕郋邾 郅訄迮, 郋 郇訄 邽 赲 郋邿 迮邾訄邽郕迮. 苺訇迮迡邽迮郅郇訄 郈郋訇訄 郇迮 郈邽郅訄 郈邽邾訄 郇訄 郈郋郋赲邿 邽郕, 訄郕 郕訄郕, 郕 郋邾 赲迮邾迮郇邽 郕訄郕 郈郋邽訄迮迮 郋 郈邽邾郋, 郈郋郋赲邿 邽郕 迠迮 邾迮赲邿, 郈郋 郈邽邽郇迮 "郈訄邾訄". 郋邽邾 邽郱赲邽郇迮郇邽 郱訄 郈邽邽郇迮郇郇迮 郇迮迡郋訇赲訄. **************************************************************************** From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 23 08:08:04 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:08:04 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <3B5B02F6.25872.1BD57A@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20010721190937.00866db0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010723080804.0098aba0@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:44 PM 7/22/01 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: >> Yes, it does work in the world of building reputations associated with >> (anonymous >> or claimed-not-anonymous) keys, but not when you need meatspace credit >> --give the meat named "Prof Joe" tenure credit for work X. > >It is common for real world authors to publish under nom de plumes. Adding a key to a nom de plume gives added advantages to the nom de plume. > A nom de plume which cannot be revealed to the folks one wants credit from (because you go to meatspace jail when the association is leaked) is useless for getting credit in meatspace. Yes the nym gets credit; but it doesn't help you get tenure, or a raise, or invitations to speak. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Jul 23 08:16:53 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:16:53 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010722222913.0445d118@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010723081653.0098dde0@pop.sprynet.com> >On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > >> I wonder what the destructive mechanism is for this system? > >There was an article in IEEE Spectrum last year (I think) on one of the >systems. The main failure mechanism is weakening of the aeroshell and due >to increased loading the missile comes apart. Many missile (propellants) are pressurized; weakening a bit of the skin will cause it to burst. From bear at sonic.net Mon Jul 23 08:46:18 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: >At 11:30 PM -0700 7/22/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > The pressures of commercial advertising--in the sense of mass media--have been with us for as long as there has been mass media. > > You either deal with it as an adult, or you deal with it as a child. To complain that people are making you want something and they should stop is definitely in the realm of the latter. > I was never really socialized enough for it to work all that well. But I had to just stop listening, because it made me angry day after day. > I say this as someone who has a bit more credit card debt than he really should, so I understand the consumeristic drive, but it's really all about self-disipline, now isn't it? > Self-discipline in an arms race with techniques designed to suppress or defeat it, yes. And that's only on the personal level. On the personal level, I'm now pretty insulated from most marketing campaigns, so that's not all that relevant to me. However, the societal effects are nasty, because the *widespread* suppression of self-discipline leads to a lot of stupid, wasteful, or harmful effects that are very widespread, and which I can't get away from. Personally, I am debt-free, and frankly loving it. It is hard to understand how much debt sucks until you get the opportunity to live without it. I highly recommend it. >>gets a little stifling when people can't or don't control how much >>pressure (as advertising etc) they are exposed to. > > You left out one word in there. > > Won't. Bingo. Won't. And are intentionally maintained in a condition where they won't, at least until they break away from the herd and strike out in their own direction. >>Let's put it this way; why would a rational person or even a sane >>person purchase a furby? It is useless; it is annoying; its expected > > Mostly to stop their children from wailing about wanting one. > > Children are, almost by definition, not sane people. Bingo. Family pressure, brought about by marketing. That's part of the whole crazy-making cycle. 'Mommy's not home for dinner, sweety, because she's working overtime to buy you a furby.... she's on the fucking treadmill, and you helped put her there. Want some pie?' >>But the science of marketing is increasingly about arresting the >>processes of rational thought, and even the processes of mental >>health, in order to induce people to buy crap which they don't >>need, won't or can't use, or can't get any real satisfaction from. > > > Advertising only works on adults (or rather rational people) when it shows them something they already want. > You are correct; and therefore, it is in the best interests of marketers to make sure that everything is as banal and bland as possible, and that all the ideas are prepackaged - specifically in order to prevent people from growing up emotionally, or becoming rational. They're doing an increasingly effective job of it and whether we're directly included/affected ourselves or not, whether we are consumerist zombies or critical-thinking adults, we have to live in the sick society that results from their handiwork. > Marketing has not gotten anywhere near that personal. Yes, it has. > I don't receive car commercials with a picture of a buxom oriental woman wearing red PVC undergarments, while my neighbor get his with a picture of one of maplethorpe's models. Now, granted part of this is because it's not commercial feasible, and I doubt it ever will be. Trust me on this; it will be. Men known to be gay are already getting car adverts featuring leather-clad men instead of the customary bikini babes, and offered accessories like rainbow stickers direct from the dealers. From here out, it's only a matter of refinement. Ultimately, if the car dealers find out enough, the question is only about whether the marginal sales to people who like busty oriental babes in red PVC underwear will pay for the photo shoot, ad composition, and printing costs. Digital imaging and "poser" software drives down the cost of the first, Expert Systems are driving down the cost of the second, and printing costs are already pretty damn minor. > No, the most that "modern advertising science" has been able to do is to direct clients NOT to advertise in places where they won't get a ROI, in favor of places that WILL. > With the result that practically *every* ad you see causes pressure, because all the ones that wouldn't get an ROI (which wouldn't cause pressure) are elsewhere. The total pressure on each and every consumer has dramatically increased. Bear From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 23 07:13:59 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:13:59 -0500 Subject: (NTK: Adobe) qba'g qrpbgr qurfr Message-ID: http://www.ntk.net/ James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 22 23:15:54 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:15:54 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <200107211755.NAA14355@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, John Young wrote: >Why bust Dmitry and not the head of ElcomSoft if the >primary crime is commercial gain? That he is claimed >to be the copyright holder is thin stuff, for that does not >support his being the main commercial beneficiary (unless >the FBI has evidence that was not revealed about Elcomsoft's >internal finances). To me, it seems quite consistent with the way the DMCA is crafted and currently applied. If you look at who's likely to present the most trouble with circumvention, it's all the individual coders out there, mostly open source people and recreational hackers, putting together decryption programs for fun/compatibility/fame. If you want to "send a clear signal" to these people, you bust one of their kind, not the head of the corporation. >That Dmitry was busted has a stench of scapegoatism, and ElcomSoft may not >be altogether innocent, not least for sending Dmitry into the lion's den. This would be another reasonable guess, of course. Who knows? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 22 23:32:38 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:32:38 +0300 (EEST) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <3B59ADA6.25566.12ED9E1@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: >In principle, it should be possible to write a stego program that is >undetectable, provided your enemy has no better models of noise sources in >the medium than you have. As far as I know, no one has done this. This is a point I raised on a watermarking list a while back -- most of the stego work today is aimed at watermarking/content protection applications, since that's where the money is. Those applications do not have the sort of strict demands on deniability that stego used for secret communication has. Instead of statistical transparency, they aim at perceptual. Instead of strict deniability, they go for robust detection and difficult removal, which imply easily caught redundancy in the output. Hence, most of the steganographic algorithms out there are completely unsuitable for cypherpunkly use, even when information theory posits steganography squarely as the kind of race-in-statistics you describe. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From d1tb at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 09:33:01 2001 From: d1tb at yahoo.com (D B) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010723081653.0098dde0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20010723163301.17525.qmail@web10201.mail.yahoo.com> First post - I hope it goes out Here's a link to the first story I saw about this technology in TechnologyReview. http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/jul01/freedmanall.asp --- David Honig wrote: > >On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > >> I wonder what the destructive mechanism is for > this system? > > > >There was an article in IEEE Spectrum last year (I > think) on one of the > >systems. The main failure mechanism is weakening of > the aeroshell and due > >to increased loading the missile comes apart. > > Many missile (propellants) are pressurized; > weakening a bit of the skin > will cause > it to burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From decoy at iki.fi Sun Jul 22 23:49:45 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:49:45 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <3B5ADFE0.895D1091@ssz.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >Point this baby at the ground... > >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27248-2001Jul20.html Seen some of this before. It's sexy, especially if one thinks of the propaganda value: it's basically "death from above". Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 07:17:42 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:17:42 -0400 Subject: biochemwomdterror in dc Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010723101728.024cd170@mail.well.com> today... SENATE GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE Bioterrorism International Security, Proliferation and Federal Services Subcommittee hearing to examine the role of the Federal Emergency Management Agency in managing a bioterrorist attack and the impact of public health concerns on bioterrorism preparedness. Witnesses: Bruce Baughman, director, Planning and Readiness, FEMA; Scott Lilibridge, director, Bioterrorism Preparedness and Response Program, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; Tara O'Toole, Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies; Dan Hanfling, FACEP, Inova Fairfax Hospital Location: 342 Dirksen Senate Office Building. 2 p.m. Contact: 202-224-2627 http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 07:18:12 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:18:12 -0400 Subject: more biochemwomdterror in DC Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010723101753.024d7630@mail.well.com> (a double-header!) HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE Biological Weapons National Security, Veterans Affairs and International Relations Subcommittee oversight hearing to focus on federal and state responses to a biological weapons attack within the United States. Witnesses: Frank Keating, governor, OK; Sam Nunn, chairman/CEO, Nuclear Threat Initiative; John Hamre, president/CEO, Center for Strategic and International Studies; Margaret Hamburg, vice president, Biological Programs for the Nuclear Threat Initiative; Jerome Hauer, managing director, Kroll Associates; Major General William Cugno, adjutant general, CT; Major General Ronald Harrison, adjutant general, FL; James Hughes, director, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; Patricia Quinlisk, medical director/state epidemiologist, Iowa Department of Public Health, former president counsel, State and Territorial Epidemiologists; Jeffrey Duchin, chief, Communicable Disease Control, Epidemiology and Immunization Section, Public Health, Seattle and King County, WA Location: 2154 Rayburn House Office Building. 2:30 p.m. Contact: 202-225-5074 http://www.house.gov/reform From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 23 10:20:26 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:20:26 -0700 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) References: Message-ID: <003301c1139b$c440e350$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trei, Peter" To: ; "'Black Unicorn'" Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:17 AM Subject: RE: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) > > From: Black Unicorn[SMTP:unicorn at schloss.li] > > > > Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully. > > > Use a spotter, protective equipment, and > enlist a trained coach. Translate as: Use a lawyer, anonymous remailer, and enlist a PR expert. Good advice in either example. From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 23 08:50:28 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:50:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > Willing to make me the same offer? Sure. But you'll have to learn how to read first. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 07:51:06 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:51:06 -0400 Subject: FC: "Free Dmitry" rally in DC, San Jose TODAY; B. Schneier on DMCA Message-ID: ********* > >"FREE DMITRY" PROTEST >JULY 23 -- WASHINGTON, DC > >WHEN: Monday, July 23, 2001, 12 noon >WHERE: FBI headquarters, south side > between 9-10th and Pennsylvania Avenue NW >WHO: You, and anyone who cares about the right to code freely >WHY: The FBI arrested a Russian cryptologist, Dmitry Sklyarov, on charges > of violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act last week > >CONTACT: David Merrill of the Linux Documentation Project > and volunteer organizer (david at lupercalia.net, 202.361.0681 cell) > >BACKGROUND AND OTHER PROTESTS: >http://www.boycottadobe.com/ >http://www.freedmitry.org/ > >MAILING LISTS: >http://www.lupercalia.net/pipermail/free-dmitry-dc/2001-July/thread.html >http://zork.net/mailman/listinfo/free-sklyarov ********* [Below is from Bruce Schneier --Declan] Russian Hacker Arrested On Monday in Las Vegas, the FBI arrested a Russian computer security researcher, because he presented a paper on the strengths and weaknesses of software used to protect electronic books. Because of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which makes publishing critical research on this technology more serious than publishing nuclear weapon design information, Dmitry Sklyarov (age 27) landed in jail. Just how did the United States of America end up with a law protecting the entertainment industry at the expense of freedom of speech? I've already written about the DMCA, and the futility of employing technical solutions to prevent digital copying. The specific DMCA provision at work here is the one which explicitly forbids the invention and distribution of "circumvention devices" and "reverse engineering of document protection." Basically, it is illegal to break--or show how to break--technology used to protect digital copyright. If you do, you go to jail (see above). Technically, the law only protects "effective" copy-protection technology. This is a wonderful piece of circular logic: surely if is has been broken, then it wasn't effective. The complaint against Sklyarov sidestepped this problem: "Nevertheless, because the book sold in encrypted form and only accessible through the eBook Reader and is not duplicatable, the copyright holder's interest in the book is protected." But if that were true, then there would no grounds for the case. There are also provisions in the DMCA to allow for security research, provisions that I and others fought hard to have included. But these provisions are being ignored, as we've seen in the DeCSS case against 2600 Magazine, the RIAA case against Ed Felton, and this arrest. What the DMCA has done is create a new controlled technology. In the United States there are several technologies that normal citizens are prohibited from owning: lock picks, fighter aircraft, pharmaceuticals, explosives. (Ignore guns, since the 2nd Amendment makes it impossible to generalize from their example.) In each of these cases, only people with the proper credentials can legally buy and sell these technologies. The DMCA goes one step further, though. Not only are circumvention tools controlled, but information about them are. 2600 Magazine merely described, and linked to implementations of, DeCSS. Ed Felton wanted to present a paper on the deficiencies of the RIAA's various watermark schemes. I attended Dmitry Sklyarov's talk at DefCon. What he did was legitimate security research. He determined the security of several popular E-Book reader products and then notified the respective firms of his findings. His company Elcomsoft published, in Russia, software that circumvented these ineffectual security systems. His DefCon talk was a clear and evenhanded presentation of the facts. He said, in effect: "This security is weak, and here's why." (One particular company he mentioned stored the password in plaintext inside the executable. So, anyone with Notepad and a few minutes of scrolling could have the book modified for easy distribution.) The FBI nabbed him at the request of Adobe Systems, Inc. for breaking the security on Acrobat's E-Reader API, and held him without bail. In 1979, "The Progressive" magazine tried to publish an article containing technical information on H-Bomb design. The government claimed publication of the would result in "grave, direct, immediate and irreparable harm to the national security of the United States." After six months of legal maneuvering, they published it. In 1971, the government tried to prevent "The New York Times" from publishing "The Pentagon Papers." The Supreme Court promptly voted 6-3 to reject the government's censorship attempt, with chief Justice Warren Burger declaring that "prior restraints on speech and publication are the most serious and least tolerable infringement on First Amendment rights." Welcome to 21st Century America, where the profits of the major record labels, movie houses, and publishing companies are more important than First Amendment rights. In many ways, we're seeing the legacy of the NSA's long war against cryptography and cryptographic information. Until the late 1990s, the NSA the threat of national security to prevent the dissemination of encryption technologies. When they could, they blocked the publication and dissemination of information. When that failed, they concentrated on products, using both legal and illegal methods to block encryption software. Many people believe the NSA's primary rubric, export controls, would not stand up to a constitutional challenge, but it was never tested. The NSA eventually gave up. During those debates I was often asked about the NSA's strategy. Wasn't it doomed? Yes, it would eventually fail. But from the NSA's point of view, every day they could delay the failure was a day of victory. Maybe the Export Control regulations (they were never laws) were unconstitutional. Maybe preventing publication of this and that was prior restraint. Maybe pressuring companies to install back doors into their software was illegal. But if it worked for a while, it was a win. The NSA was fighting a holding action, and they knew it. The entertainment industry is behaving in the same way. The DMCA is unconstitutional, but they don't care. Until it's ruled unconstitutional, they've won. The charges against Sklyarov won't stick, but the chilling effect it will have on other researchers will. The entertainment is fighting a holding action, and fear, uncertainty, and doubt are their weapons. We need to win this, and we need to win it quickly. Please support those who are fighting these cases in the courts: the EFF and others. Every day we don't win is a loss. Adobe's Technology and Elcomsoft's Products: Government documents: EFF support: News articles: Thoughtful analyses: Other DMCA cases: Protecting Copyright in the Digital World Every time I write about the impossibility of effectively protecting digital files on a general-purpose computer, I get responses from people decrying the death of copyright. "How will authors and artists get paid for their work," they ask me. Truth be told, I don't know. I feel sort of like the physicist who just explained relativity to a group of would-be interstellar travelers, only to be asked: "How do you expect us to get to the stars, then?" I'm sorry, but I don't know that, either. I am a scientist, and I explain the realities of the science. I apologize if you don't like the truth, but the truth doesn't change because people wish it would be something else. I don't know how authors and artists will make money in a world of easy copyability. I'm an author myself, personally concerned about protecting my own copyright, but I don't know. I can tell you what will and won't work, technically. You an argue whether my technical analysis is correct, but it just doesn't make sense to bring social arguments into the technical discussion. If I had to guess, I believe companies will find a way to make money despite the prevalence of digital copying. When radio was invented, people didn't bemoan the fact that radio signals could be listened to, for free, by any receiver tuned to the proper frequency. They figured out how to make money some other way. There are lots of financial models that don't require "selling the each" to make money: advertising, patronage, pay-for-performance, pay-for-timeliness, pay-for-interaction, public funding. I started Crypto-Gram when I was a consultant; I gave the newsletter away and charged for my time. The newsletter was free advertising. The Grateful Dead gave away concert recordings but charged for live performances. Stephen King kept writing chapters of his book as long as a sufficient percentage of his readers paid him to. I don't know what model will become the prevalent one in the digital world. But I do know that technical methods to prevent digital copying are doomed to fail. (This is not to say that social methods, or legal methods, won't work.) Those companies that have business models that accept this reality are more likely than those who have business models that reject it. Whine all you like, but reality is reality. My original analysis: ********* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 07:55:16 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:55:16 -0400 Subject: "Free Dmitry" rally in DC, San Jose TODAY; B. Schneier on DMCA Message-ID: <20010723105512.A31699@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 02:10:28 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:10:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Seen some of this before. It's sexy, especially if one thinks of the > propaganda value: it's basically "death from above". You're saying it, "propaganda value". Missiles are only vulnerable during boost phase, while they still have fuel onboard. Chemical lasers are expensive, have limited operation time, are cranky, and laser tracking is a nightmare. Mirroring the surface of the missile is a cheap countermeasure, requiring orders of magnitude larger critical flux and thus driving hardware costs at the other end. You need serious energy flux and tracking precision to terminate a warhead. LEO hardware might be able to do it, but not without much, much, much lower launch costs. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 02:10:28 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:10:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > Seen some of this before. It's sexy, especially if one thinks of the > propaganda value: it's basically "death from above". You're saying it, "propaganda value". Missiles are only vulnerable during boost phase, while they still have fuel onboard. Chemical lasers are expensive, have limited operation time, are cranky, and laser tracking is a nightmare. Mirroring the surface of the missile is a cheap countermeasure, requiring orders of magnitude larger critical flux and thus driving hardware costs at the other end. You need serious energy flux and tracking precision to terminate a warhead. LEO hardware might be able to do it, but not without much, much, much lower launch costs. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 23 09:24:23 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:24:23 -0500 Subject: Theoretical and practical considerations for a governmentless society Message-ID: http://www.wits.ac.za/economics/Journal/governmetless.htm James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From info at adslturk.com Mon Jul 23 01:35:32 2001 From: info at adslturk.com (ADSLTURK) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:35:32 +0300 Subject: ADSL... Super Hizli... Super Ucuz... Muthis Internet... 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Name: AlcatelSTProModem1.gif Type: image/gif Size: 423 bytes Desc: AlcatelSTProModem1.gif URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 08:50:09 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:50:09 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444CE@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found or10.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: or10", was sent from ByeByeNow.com Travel and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 08:50:38 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:50:38 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444D0@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found or10.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: or10", was sent from ByeByeNow.com Travel and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From amaha at vsnl.net Mon Jul 23 09:59:10 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:59:10 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107231659.f6NGx9q15754@ak47.algebra.com> Walking is man's best medicine. -- Hippocrates ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From balun_bong at cnnic.cn Mon Jul 23 12:02:51 2001 From: balun_bong at cnnic.cn (Mr. Falun Gong) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:02:51 -0700 Subject: Former KKK Strongholds Ban Hoods in Public; ACLU Objects on Free-Speech Grounds Message-ID: <3B5C74DB.DC920A4F@cnnic.cn> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGABWS1JIPC.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MGABWS1JIPC.html Type: text/html Size: 31572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From movie2000my at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 21:21:53 2001 From: movie2000my at yahoo.com (Pearl Harbor) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:21:53 +0800 Subject: The Movie - Pearl Harbor Message-ID: <200107230354.f6N3sNf14584@smtp.nasionet.net> Dear cypherpunks-unedited, Check out the history of World War II (Pearl Harbor) You will be able to get the Original VCD & DVD movie inside "Related site"!!! http://members.tripodasia.com.my/PearlHarbor_movie/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Removal Instructions: To be removed from our "in house" mailing list mailto: movie0012001 at yahoo.com and you will automatically be removed from future mailings. You have received this email by either requesting more information on one of our opportunities or someone may have used your email address. If you received this email in error, please accept our apologies. (Any attempts to disrupt the removal email address etc., will not allow us to be able to retrieve and process the remove requests.) From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 23 10:23:14 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:23:14 -0500 Subject: The Digital Millennium Rape Act Message-ID: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-07-23-002-20-OP-CY James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From izaac at setec.org Mon Jul 23 09:36:17 2001 From: izaac at setec.org (Izaac) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:36:17 -0400 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <3B5ADFE0.895D1091@ssz.com>; from Jim Choate on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:14:56AM -0500 References: <3B5ADFE0.895D1091@ssz.com> Message-ID: <20010723123617.A7802@setec.org> On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:14:56AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Point this baby at the ground... > > http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27248-2001Jul20.html That will result only in a very broken 747. -- ___ ___ . . ___ \ / |\ |\ \ _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__ From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 09:39:50 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:39:50 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444D4@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Book3.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Book3", was sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 23 10:17:21 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:17:21 -0400 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Mond ay) Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Black Unicorn[SMTP:unicorn at schloss.li] > > Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully. > Use a spotter, protective equipment, and enlist a trained coach. Do warm up exercises first.... :-) Peter From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 23 10:17:21 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:17:21 -0400 Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Mond ay) Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Black Unicorn[SMTP:unicorn at schloss.li] > > Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully. > Use a spotter, protective equipment, and enlist a trained coach. Do warm up exercises first.... :-) Peter From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 23 10:18:10 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:18:10 -0400 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonp ost.com) Message-ID: With high-powered lasers, one of the important destructive mechanisms is blast - the outer layer of the illuminated object vaporizes, and flies away from the rest of the target. The reactive force of this gives the target a hell of a kick. Kicking off strict alignment with it's flight path, or putting a big dent (or even better a hole) in the side of a missile under several G's of stress traveling at a high Mach number is not healthy for the missile. Laser's have problems though - as they heat the air the refractive index changes, leading to 'blooming' or beam expansion. At too high a power density they can also ionize the air, which makes it effectively opaque. Dust, haze, and clouds are also problems. Using *very* short pulses eliminates many of these problems. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Steve Schear[SMTP:schear at lvcm.com] > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 1:34 AM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser > (washingtonpost.com) > > At 09:14 AM 7/22/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >Point this baby at the ground... > > > >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27248-2001Jul20.html > > I wonder what the destructive mechanism is for this system? Heat by > radiant absorption seems an obvious but impractical method. If it is, > then > as the article mentions there may be some inexpensive and practical > countermeasures to such a system, such as making the exterior of the > missile body into a multi-faceted mirror able to reflect both IR and radar > > energy (although doing the same for the nose cone might prove more > difficult due to aerodynamics). > > steve From a3495 at cotse.com Mon Jul 23 10:50:09 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NetCurrents: Echelon for the Private Sector, Message-ID: Bill wrote: >However, unlike Echelon, they're probably monitoring only conversations >in public spaces, like an extended higher-priced version of >Google/DejaNews. >There's nothing there you wouldn't be able to find on Blacknet :-) John Doe Actually, it's used for whatever the client wants: there's nothing in the technology that prevents it from being applied to private e-mail accounts, or searching all the hard drives on a network. About the "no expectation of privacy in a public place" angle: do you really think two people talking solely to each other on IRC expect their throwaway comments to be monitored, logged, and made part of some lame marketing presentation? Once people know the technical capacity is there for that to happen, that's one thing. But otherwise it hardly seems right. > On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:15:53PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > > Did you know that NetCurrents, which bills itself as "the Internet's > > Premiere Intelligence Agency", conducts real-time monitoring of message > > boards, chatrooms, and IRC channels, logging and producing reports on all > > occurences of particluar keywords for their clients? > > > > Echelon for the private sector, pure and simple. On 07/22/2001 - 17:52, Declan McCullagh wrote: > And what we would expect the market to do. > If you don't like it, use a nym. Of course you're right, no one can expect to be handed privacy on a platter. How do you feel about web bugs and cookies--if it's part of the private sector, anything goes? I don't think legislation is the answer--educating people so they can take care of themselves makes sense to me. Hence my two cents about Private- sector Echelon. ~Faustine. From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jul 23 14:08:08 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:08:08 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonp ost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723140621.03c62d48@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:18 PM 7/23/2001 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: >With high-powered lasers, one of the important destructive mechanisms is >blast - the outer layer of the illuminated object vaporizes, and flies away >from >the rest of the target. The reactive force of this gives the target a hell >of a kick. >Kicking off strict alignment with it's flight path, or putting a big dent >(or even >better a hole) in the side of a missile under several G's of stress >traveling at >a high Mach number is not healthy for the missile. I have a hard time imagining that a mirrored and faceted vehicle exterior would provide enough absorption to enable this mechanism, otherwise the laser's own mirrors would like destruct from the same exposure. steve From stevet at sendon.net Mon Jul 23 07:23:03 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:23:03 +0000 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER References: <20010723064131.1901.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: <200107231519.LAA14033@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Dr. Evil (drevil at sidereal.kz): > > On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > > > Chicken? > > > > No thanks, I had Pork Chops for dinner. > > Wow, finally some entertainment for us on the old c-punk list! Maybe > they could do a "reality TV" show based on this. Yes they could, but who would bother to watch given the amusing side-show in Italy, for example. Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From stevet at sendon.net Mon Jul 23 07:36:48 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:36:48 +0000 Subject: References: Message-ID: <200107231532.LAA15059@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Sandy Sandfort (sandfort at mindspring.com): > > But none, or few, of them see it > > in exactly those terms. They're > > just angry and frustrated and they > > don't really know why. > > Why don't they know why? Can't they read? I have so sympathy for militant > ignorance when the world is awash in information about how things work. I can sympathise with taht sentiment somewhat, but the problem for everyone is that there is so much information that choosing a priori what might be useful to know is difficult. This is of course why technologies such as artificial intelligence and consequently, intelligent agents, may eventually demonstrate their usefulness. Until we have intelligent agents which can sift through the morass that is the info-sphere to locate truly useful and timely information, you might consider giving the ignorant masses something of a break on this point. A person without supplemental information sources may be effectively blind if he relies only on print and broadcast media -- even Usenet -- and may only have vague suspicions that something critical is missing from his information sources. Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 11:56:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:56:18 -0400 Subject: Killing the 8 Swiss Anarchists In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:08:25PM +0200 References: <200107210116.VAA06975@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010723145618.B4090@cluebot.com> On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:08:25PM +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > > Oh, sorry, there are Feds listening with no sense of humor. > > What makes you think cpunks is that important? (Besides, the person Don't be silly. We know from sworn testimony in at least one (probably two, but my memory fails me) criminal trials that there are a number of Feds who read cpunks in their official capacities. Whether they have a sense of humor or not as left as an exercise for the observer. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 12:00:47 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:00:47 -0400 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 11:28:41PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010723150047.C4090@cluebot.com> On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 11:28:41PM -0700, Petro wrote: > Will Ashcroft prove to be any different? I don't know. Don't underestimate institutional bureaucracy or the FBI's independence. >A LEO cannot do that *and still be a LEO*. He can refuse by resigning, but if he simply takes the position that he will only enforce laws he thinks are constitutional he causes a violation of one of the fundamental underpinnings of the constitution, that all people are equal under the law, and that the law is supposed to be equally applied. This is wrongheaded and silly. c.f. Reno's announcement that she would not prosecute under the "no distribution of abortion information" section of the CDA. Didn't hear anyone screaming then, did ya? -Declan From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jul 23 15:06:00 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:06:00 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010722222913.0445d118@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723150440.03e05848@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:28 AM 7/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > I wonder what the destructive mechanism is for this system? > >There was an article in IEEE Spectrum last year (I think) on one of the >systems. The main failure mechanism is weakening of the aeroshell and due >to increased loading the missile comes apart. The same sort of thing >happened in Desert Storm with some of the Scuds that used plywood sheeting >instead of aluminum. It's one of the primary factors of their high failure >rate. > > > Heat by radiant absorption seems an obvious but impractical method. > >It's the one they use primarily. Only because the rocket exterior has not been "stealthed" via high reflectivity and faceting. steve From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 12:16:48 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:16:48 -0400 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574>; from unicorn@schloss.li on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:41:44PM -0700 References: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010723151648.D4090@cluebot.com> I'll chip in. But can we increase the incentive, perhaps by boosting the reward if Choate reaches a certain minimum score? Hmm. It shouldn't take long for Choate to take it. Just a few hours, I'd imagine. Not much work, so there's little reason not to do so. -Declan On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:41:44PM -0700, Black Unicorn wrote: > I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he presents a valid ETS > score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandy Sandfort" > To: "Cypherpunks" > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:07 PM > Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > > > C'punks, > > > > Here's an excellent opportunity for our favorite resident buffoon to strut > > his lawyer-wannabe chops. The next LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test) will be > > administered on October 6, 2001. > > > > Jim, PLEASE take the test. I'd love to see your test score. And, hey, > > maybe you'll get a high enough score to tempt you to go to law school > > (unlikely, given your illogical thought processes, but even a blind chicken > > finds a seed now and then). > > > > It's only 96 bucks. Sign up for the test at: > > > > https://www5.lsac.org/reggie/cgi-bin/r.exe?To=tintro.htm&from=rint.htm > > > > > > S a n d y > > _____________________________________________________________ > > > > If the law of gravity is fundamental, why can't it be changed > > by Constitutional amendment since it's the primary authority? > > > > W W > > \*\ /*/ > > The Road Kill Group |*| |*| > > /*////|\\\\*\ |\- > > (|||||||||||||\((x)\ > > -======-------------||---:> > > (|||||||||||||/((x)/ > > \*\\\\|////*/ |/- > > |*| |*| > > /*/ \*\ > > M M > > > > verbigeration (vuhr-bij-uh-RAY-shun) noun > > > > Obsessive repetition of meaningless words and phrases. > > > > [From Latin verbigerare, to talk, chat, from verbum word + gerere, to carry > > on + -ation.] From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 12:19:09 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:19:09 -0400 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:23:11PM -0700 References: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010723151909.E4090@cluebot.com> By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, after expenses. That should be sufficient incentive. -Declan On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:23:11PM -0700, Petro wrote: > At 9:41 PM -0700 7/22/01, Black Unicorn wrote: > >I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he presents a valid ETS > >score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. > > Willing to make me the same offer? From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 12:25:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: DOJ information sharing press release In-Reply-To: References: <20010721121947.C7990@cluebot.com> <20010721121947.C7990@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010723152504.024f1620@mail.well.com> Matt, here's something you might be interested in (as might cpunx). --Declan JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROVIDES FUNDS TO 26 STATES FOR INFORMATION SHARING INITIATIVES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE BJA Monday, July 23, 2001 202/307-0703 JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROVIDES FUNDS TO 26 STATES FOR INFORMATION SHARING INITIATIVES WASHINGTON, D.C.-- Justice Department grants to 26 states totaling more than $16 million will help them share information across jurisdictional and criminal justice system component lines and lead to improving the way they do business. The funds will help states link key information systems that include crime and offender information that will lead to better sentencing decisions, enhanced public safety and other benefits derived from more comprehensive, better coordinated criminal justice information systems. "For too long, the different arms of the criminal justice system at the federal, state, and local levels have not known what the others were doing," said Office of Justice Programs (OJP) Acting Assistant Attorney General Mary Lou Leary. "By helping law enforcement, courts, probation and parole agencies, and other components of the criminal justice system to more effectively share information, we will exponentially enhance public safety." The grants are being made under a program authorized by the Crime Identification Technology Act of 1998-more commonly referred to as CITA. The program is being administered by the Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA), a component of OJP, in cooperation with the National Governors' Association's Center for Best Practices. (MORE) -2- In Fiscal Year 2000, BJA and NGA's Center for Best Practices provided Information Integration program planning grants of $25,000 to 42 states and hosted a series of information integration workshops that were attended by representatives of state implementation teams from 45 states. These 26 grants will allow selected states to build on that work and lay the groundwork for future national information integration efforts. "Rapid advances in technology have allowed police, prosecutors, courts, and corrections to build impressive information systems," said Leary. "The key is to allow these systems to share information. Judges who have reliable up-to-date arrest records will be able to make better sentencing decisions. In turn, police who have complete information about outstanding warrants and criminal histories will be in a better position to detain dangerous criminals, who do not belong back on the street." The projects being funded with the grants being announced today range from $40,000 to $1 million initiatives. The projects will last between 12 and 24 months and must contribute directly to improving information sharing among all or some of the law enforcement and criminal justice agencies at the state and local levels. Additional information about BJA is available at: www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bja Additional information about NGA's Center for Best Practices is available at: www.nga.org/center # # # BJA 01-164 After Hours Contact: Doug Johnson 202/353-5610 (cell) Office of Justice Programs (OJP) BJA/NGA FY 2001 Justice Information Technology Integration Implementation Project State Grantee Award Amount Contact Phone AZ Arizona Criminal Justice Commission $ 230,000 Michael D. Branham 602/728-0752 AR Arkansas Integrated Justice Information System Coordinating Council $ 910,563 Brenda Barber 501/682-0053 CO Colorado Department of Public Safety $ 700,000 C. Suzanne Menncer 303/239-4398 CT The State of Connecticut $ 705,000 Theron Schnure 860/418-6340 FL Florida Technology Office $1,000,000 Roy Cales 850/410-4777 HI State of Hawaii $1,000,000 Carla T. Poirier 808/586-5330 IL State of Illinois $ 973,660 Matt Bettenhausen 312/814-2121 KS Kansas Bureau of Investigation $ 239,000 Charles W. Sexson 785/296-8200 KY Commonwealth of Kentucky $1,000,000 Aldona Valicenti 502/564-1201 MD Maryland Criminal Justice Information Advisory Board $ 460,352 Stewart Simms 410/339-5000 MA Massachusetts Office of Public Safety $ 850,000 Jane Perlov 617/727-7775 MI Michigan Department of State Police $ 750,000 Nancy Becker 517/336-6641 MO State of Missouri $ 510,815 Gerry Wethington 573/526-7741 MT Montana Department of Justice $ 40,000 Wulbur Rehmann 406/444-6194 NE State of Nebraska $ 336,200 Michael Overton 402/471-3992 NJ New Jersey Dept. of Law and Public Safety $ 350,000 Steven Talpas 609/984-0634 State Grantee Award Amount Contact Phone NM Supreme Court of New Mexico $ 800,000 Bob Stafford 505/476-0400 NY New York Division of Criminal Justice Services $ 757,600 Clyde Deweese 518/485-2295 NC State of North Carolina $ 600,000 Robert Brinson 919/716-3501 ND State of North Dakota $ 310,000 Nancy Walz 701/328-1991 PA Pennsylvania Justice Network $ 795,000 Linda Rosenberg 717/705-0760 RI Rhode Island Justice Commission $ 150,000 Joseph Smith 401/222-2620 TN Tennessee Office for Criminal Justice Programs $1,000,000 Pat Dishman 615/741-8277 UT Utah Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice $ 650,000 Jennifer Hemingway 801/538-1055 WA Office of Financial Management $ 495,000 Gary Robinson 360/902-0528 WI State of Wisconsin $ 739,365 Annette Cruz 608/266-1736 From balun_bong at cnnic.cn Mon Jul 23 15:29:59 2001 From: balun_bong at cnnic.cn (Mr. Falun Gong) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:29:59 -0700 Subject: Sircam's accidental spying considered hilarious Message-ID: <3B5CA567.27F37CF6@cnnic.cn> Saving the infected files as e.g., txt and viewing them makes for amusing accidental spying. God *damn* randoms are stupid. E.g., from _Comprimise_ [sic] " I don't see important [sic] that we have the right to go and buy a fully automatic high caliber gun. We need to have gun control to regulate this. We cannot discriminate [sic] who gets the right to bare [sic] arms because that is what this country is all about" At least The Bells in _Synchronized Swimming_ can spell. It would have been hilarious if John Deutsch's home machine had gotten the bug, eh? Free Dmitri, Recall DCMA, Behead those who voted for it, From decoy at iki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:31:31 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:31:31 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Killing the G8 Anarchists In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010721111418.00851d70@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: >I've read that the Finnish Surgeon General (equiv.) *recommends* the use >of silencers; and the use is common for keeping peace with neighbors too. This was news to me, but it might well be. Perhaps it's just seen as practical in urban areas. I'd really like to get my hands on the reference, though. >You can't imagine how amusing/twisted that is in the US, where silencers are >linked with al capone, etc. So they are in Finland, they just do not generate the noise. Gun related crime really isn't much of an issue, here. A knife is the Finnish killer's weapon of choice, or in some cases, an axe. It's a redneck sorta deal, basically. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jul 23 15:43:20 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:43:20 -0700 Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010705112216.021106b0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723151348.03e0c430@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:22 AM 7/5/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[A followup to a cpunx thread, and a link to the statute.] > >>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:15:01 -0400 >>To: politech at politechbot.com >>From: Declan McCullagh >>Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal >>Cc: tdoulin at dispatch.com >> >>This is an unusual case. The Ohio law -- a 1970s version of which >>Politech member Bruce Taylor successfully defended before a federal >>appeals court -- applies not only to dirty pictures, but also to written >>material: >> >>http://www.moralityinmedia.org/obsclawlinks.htm#oh >>"No person, with knowledge of the character of the material or >>performance involved, shall do any of the following... Create, reproduce, >>or publish any obscene material that has a minor as one of its >>participants or portrayed observers... Buy, procure, possess, or control >>any obscene material, that has a minor as one of its participants..." >> >>Anyone who possesses such a visual or written description -- including a >>diary entry or an erotic story -- is guilty of a felony. That means >>Ohioans who have on their hard drive an "obscene" text file from >>alt.sex.stories are felons. >> >>Other coverage: >>http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-07-05/News_and_Views/Beyond_the_City/a-117267.asp >>http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/07/05/loc_tristate_a_m_report.html "What's the difference between the Russian Constitution and the American Constitution? They both guarantee freedom of speech, but the U.S. Constitution also guarantees freedom after the words are uttered." Dmitry Perevozhkin, "Anecdotes about Putin" From reeza at flex.com Mon Jul 23 18:48:03 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:48:03 -1000 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <001501c113c9$cfbb5700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723154751.03180ef0@flex.com> Protection money? At 12:50 PM 7/23/01, Black Unicorn wrote: >Perhaps we should just designate the funds, payable monthly, for every month >Choate doesn't post anything to the list? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Riad S. Wahby" >To: >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 3:07 PM >Subject: Re: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > >> Declan McCullagh wrote: >> > By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to >> > either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd >> > require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, >> > after expenses. >> >> Make that total $400. I'm willing to do my part to shut Choate up. >> >> :-) >> >> -- >> Riad Wahby >> rsw at mit.edu >> MIT VI-2/A 2002 >> >> 5105 From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 23 15:50:02 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:50:02 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER Message-ID: <001501c113c9$cfbb5700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Perhaps we should just designate the funds, payable monthly, for every month Choate doesn't post anything to the list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Riad S. Wahby" To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: Re: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to > > either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd > > require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, > > after expenses. > > Make that total $400. I'm willing to do my part to shut Choate up. > > :-) > > -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at mit.edu > MIT VI-2/A 2002 > > 5105 > From reeza at flex.com Mon Jul 23 18:54:58 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:54:58 -1000 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723154932.0317dbd0@flex.com> At 01:18 PM 7/23/01, Jim Choate wrote: >Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable >cause for lethal force in self-defence? > >No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. Safety glass isn't used in much of the rest of the world. Can your computer handle a powerpoint presentation? If yes, click on the link. Here are 15,000 words worth of how wrong you are, Choate: http://italy.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/giuliani_sequence.ppt Don't mind the propaganda at the bottom of the images, just look at the pictures and draw your own conclusions. The shooting occurred at the back of the vehicle, where not even US vehicles have safety glass (and the window was already broken out). Reese From reeza at flex.com Mon Jul 23 18:58:29 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:58:29 -1000 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <20010723211518.B12973@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723155738.0318d600@flex.com> At 03:15 PM 7/23/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:18:47PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >> Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable >> cause for lethal force in self-defence? >> >> No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. > >I second the call for Jim to volunteer his car for projectile testing. A-yup. >Besides, wasn't the window open? If not already broken, see the link I just sent. Reese From reeza at flex.com Mon Jul 23 19:05:10 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:05:10 -1000 Subject: A proletariat experiment... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> At 03:34 PM 7/23/01, Jim Choate wrote: >It looks like the G8 fire extinguisher was of the ~20lb variety. This is >the same weight class as the bags of dog food I buy for my dogs. Next time >you buy one get a friend to toss 'em back and forth. > >Then ask yourself, does that mass represent a deadly threat? Bags of dog food are soft, fire extinguishers aren't. Why don't you play full force catch with cans of dog food at 10 feet, instead - no glove, of course. >The reality is that unless they snuck up behind you and hit you in the >head a single might break a bone or arm but would not in any way be life >threatening. You really need to go take that exam. >If you've got access to skateboard wrist and elbow pads get a real fire >extinguisher and try to block it with your hand. It ain't that hard. The bottle is a little smaller than a 15 lb bottle, of course the 15 lb's refers to the weight of the bottle itself, it is closer to 50 lbs if it is fully charged with carbon dioxide (which we have no way to know whether it it was charged or what it was (once?) charged with). You really need to back down on this Choate. Reese From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 14:22:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > My comment was limited to radiant energy weapons. Even that's not sufficient since lasers have been demonstrated for mid-course assaults as well. > As to those, the critical vulnerability exists during launch and boost > phase. The target is slow, bright, large, has fuel on board and a > nonarmored hull, which (as other posters observed) can be weakened with > enough flux. All it really takes is to get it cocked a tad off senter and aerodynamic forces will take it apart, irrespective of hull weakness. > The warhead in transit is fast, small, silent, and very, very hard to hit > critically (well, it is designed to withstand reentry and nuclear > antimissile near-hits), especially if it has a high-albedo coating, and if > it is accompanied by a cloud of decoys. Either radiant energy weapon or > kinetic kill, you're on the losing side here. They've certainly managed to kill enough of them in tests starting as far back as the ASAT fighters from the 80's. The reality is that quite a lot of research goes on in attacking the warheads while in the mid-course phase. It's also worth mentioning that in general the individual (assuming MRV) warheads don't usually seperate until after mid-flight. This means a not-so-small target. > > operations, vacuum effects (rupture a fuel tank and watch that baby > > gyrate). > > True, but irrelevant. Actually not, if you strike the tanks (they are typically filled with Nitrogen to both provide strength, ala a plastic coke bottle with the top on and off, and to help move fuel to the engines. Approximately half the flight occurs in this phase. > > Which has been demonstrated to be extant since the mid-80's when they > > shot the first satellite down with a high altitude fighter. > > A missile in boost phase is not a satellite. A cloud of decoys is not a > satellite. An armored warhead is not a satellite. The satellite used was specifically chosen to mimic the characteristics of a re-entry vehicle. All I can say is google and 'anti-satellite aircraft'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 14:27:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:27:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: <003301c1139b$c440e350$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: > Translate as: > > Use a lawyer, anonymous remailer, and enlist a PR expert. > > Good advice in either example. That's pretty constrained 'free speech'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 16:33:19 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:33:19 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wannabe lawyer Jimbo wrote: > Does throwing a fire extenguisher > at a auto window constitution [sic] > probable cause for lethal force in > self-defence? > > No. Because the fire extenguisher > won't go through the safety glass. Oh really? Try that experiment on your own car. Side windows shatter into a thousand pieces at the touch of a center punch. A fire extinguisher is decidedly overkill for the job. In any event, the test--at least in the US--for the use of deadly force includes the concepts of reasonable fear of death OR GREAT BODILY INJURY. Believe it or not, being blinded by a swarm of glass shards is considered great bodily injury. Please, Jimbo, take the LSAT so we can see how much smarter you are than your posts otherwise indicate. S a n d y P.S. Any Austin Cypherpunks have a fire extinguisher and know where Inchoate parks his car? From grocha at neutraldomain.org Mon Jul 23 16:35:17 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:35:17 -0700 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <001501c113c9$cfbb5700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574>; from unicorn@schloss.li on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 03:50:02PM -0700 References: <001501c113c9$cfbb5700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010723163517.F36051@neutraldomain.org> ,----[ On Mon, Jul 23, at 03:50PM, Black Unicorn wrote: ]-------------- | Perhaps we should just designate the funds, payable monthly, for every month | Choate doesn't post anything to the list? `----[ End Quote ]--------------------------- Two ideas on this one; it wouldn't be anywhere as much fun as this thread has been (ok, maybe not everyone sees it that way) and procmail really is cheaper. --gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From info at giganetstore.com Mon Jul 23 08:47:15 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:47:15 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?V=E1_de_f=E9rias_no_seu_carro_em_seguran=E7a?= Message-ID: <00aba2647151771WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> V獺 de F矇rias no seu carro em seguran癟a A giganetstore.com disponibiliza-lhe uma gama completa de produtos para poder ir de f矇rias no seu autom籀vel em seguran癟a e com o m獺ximo conforto Tester de Alcool no Sangue 7.990 ($) Poupe 62% Cinto Bagagem 1.469 ($) Poupe 8% Porta Bicicletas 3.490 ($) Poupe 48% Kit Auto Espanha 2.290 ($) Poupe 13% Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 23 15:08:50 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:08:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Petro burbled upon us thusly: > Another point you bring up is that a LEO should not enforce laws > that "clearly" violate the constitution. > > A LEO cannot do that *and still be a LEO*. He can refuse by > resigning, but if he simply takes the position that he will only > enforce laws he thinks are constitutional he causes a violation of one > of the fundamental underpinnings of the constitution, that all people > are equal under the law, and that the law is supposed to be equally > applied. Maybe you should look at the oaths that are sworn to by all public employees, of which LEOs are but a small maggot in a big sewer. All of them contain a provision whereby there swear to uphold the constitution. Not to follow orders which may or may not be chain-of-command valid, and *hopefully* constitutional. As for refusing to enforce laws which are personally believed to be unconstitutional, this goes on all the time, both officially [Sherriff Blah refuses to enforce law X - publicly], and unofficially Officer Y refuses to enforce law X - privately]. How many weeks before middle schools reopen, anyway? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From balun_bong at cnnic.cn Mon Jul 23 17:11:22 2001 From: balun_bong at cnnic.cn (Mr. Falun Gong) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:11:22 -0700 Subject: Assasination Politics in the Middle East Message-ID: <3B5CBD2A.28E74048@cnnic.cn> Ok, the Subject line is a bit of a stretch, as there's no anon payment, but it is interesting nonetheless. Israel to look into Arafat murder ad Monday, 23 July 2001 12:32 (ET) Israel to look into Arafat murder ad By SAUD ABU RAMADAN GAZA, July 23 (UPI) -- Israel's attorney general on Monday said he would consider opening a criminal investigation into an advertisement that urged anyone who had the opportunity to murder Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, the Haaretz newspaper reported. The paper said that a leader of a group called Zo Artzeinu, Moshe Feiglin, and three movement colleagues signed the advertisement, published in the Makor Rishon newspaper by the right-wing group. The ad called on any Israeli to "point your rifle at his (Arafat's) plane when it flies over the Jewish settlement..." The ad also urged members of the Israeli secret service to "open fire immediately at Arafat's convoy whenever driving in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank." Legal officials said they doubted indictments could actually be submitted against either the Zo Artzeinu members or Makor Rishon's editors. Since a tougher anti-incitement law was recently defeated in the Knesset, said the paper, prosecutors lack the legal tools needed to indict the sponsors of the anti-Arafat message. But Member of Knesset Ran Cohen from Meretz Party urged Israel Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein to charge both the Zo Artzeinu members and Makor Rishon's editors. Rubinstein also ordered the Israeli army, the police and the Shin Bet security service to take firm, uncompromising action against "extremist Jewish settlers who harm innocent Arab civilians." Meanwhile, Rubinstein reportedly convened a secret meeting last week with top security officials to consider ways of clamping down on vigilante actions that harm Palestinian civilians, including women and children, said the paper. Officials at the meeting considered various legal steps against extremists, particularly in the Hebron area, such as banning their entry to flashpoints on the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Ha'aretz said that no decision had been reached regarding the imposition of such restraining orders on Jewish militants. http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=204957 From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 17:13:50 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:13:50 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jimbo backpedaled: > I doubt seriously anyone would be > blinded... Self-defense is justified on the reasonable fear of great bodily harm. Whether you in your lawyer wannabe mind set "doubt" it or not is irrelevant. Care to risk your other eye in an experiment? Even though you might "doubt" you would be blinded, I doubt you would run the risk. Neither would someone in a car were you threatening them with a fire extinguisher. > yes it's great bodily injury. It's > not justification for lethal force. As usual, you are wrong again. Under the laws of most--if not all--US jurisdictions, it is. If you don't think so, fine, just sit there like a jerk with you gun in your hand and let the nice rioter have a go at your car window. > ...I've seen windows break (and > broken my fair share) on cars > multiple times. Some from wrecks, > some from gunshot...I even once > had a D based rocket fired > directly into the windshield of > a 68 Cougar...I'm blind in one > eye from being struck with a 2x4... Wrecks, gunshots, rocket attacks and 2x4s, huh? Wake up Jimbo; can't you see that the universe is trying to tell you something? That ringing sound you keep ignoring is the clue-phone, Jimbo. S a n d y From reeza at flex.com Mon Jul 23 20:17:55 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:17:55 -1000 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723154932.0317dbd0@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723171017.031fa260@flex.com> At 04:24 PM 7/23/01, Jim Choate wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > >> Don't mind the propaganda at the bottom of the images, just look at the >> pictures and draw your own conclusions. The shooting occurred at the >> back of the vehicle, where not even US vehicles have safety glass (and >> the window was already broken out). I was thinking laminated safety glass, which is only used for windshields in the US. >Wrong, my Bronco has safety glass all around. So did my Mustang GT. My 86 >Isuzu Pup also has safety glass all around. But they do not have laminated safety glass all around. I'll quote Jon Beets: At 04:14 PM 7/23/01, Jon Beets wrote: > >There are two types of windows on most American cars... The first is >the front windshield.. It has a film in it that keeps it generally in >one piece unless enough force is put through it. As a firefighter we >like this windshield since it is easily removed with a sharp knife >around the seal (its gotta be removed before you can remove the top >of the car). The side windows are another matter, they are made to >shatter so that there are no large shards that may seriously injure >someone... And shatter they do, quite easily. I shattered a side window in a truck simply by slamming the door too hard, once. The window was fully up, btw. Reese From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jul 23 17:24:05 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:24:05 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723150440.03e05848@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723172107.03e33058@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:05 PM 7/23/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > > > >It's the one they use primarily. > > > > Only because the rocket exterior has not been "stealthed" via high > > reflectivity and faceting. > >Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've >got weight issues that this would entail. It's not like they've got a lot >of overhead for the job. I suspect that faceting wouldn't be any more >effective than a smoothly round body form, it could have aerodynamic >effects as well (ie sharp corners at the facet edges - and yes they could >be rounded - now you're moving back toward a round rocket planform). Ahhh but faceted exterior would deny the adversary less a visual or radar cross section to acquire and track (yeah I know about the tail plume). steve From jeffersgary at hotmail.com Mon Jul 23 15:24:46 2001 From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:24:46 -0500 Subject: Alternative Physics - Tom Bearden's site Message-ID: From grocha at neutraldomain.org Mon Jul 23 17:25:26 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:25:26 -0700 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:44:55PM -0700 References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> ,----[ On Mon, Jul 23, at 07:44PM, John Young wrote: ]-------------- | Adobe Systems Incorporated and the Electronic Frontier | Foundation today jointly recommend the release of Russian | programmer Dmitry Sklyarov from federal custody. | | Adobe is also withdrawing its support for the criminal | complaint against Dmitry Sklyarov. | | "We strongly support the DMCA and the enforcement of | copyright protection of digital content," said Colleen | Pouliot, Senior Vice President and General Counsel for | Adobe. "However, the prosecution of this individual in | this particular case is not conducive to the best | interests of any of the parties involved or the | industry. ElcomSoft's Advanced eBook Processor | software is no longer available in the United States, | and from that perspective the DMCA worked. Adobe will | continue to protect its copyright interests and those | of its customers." `----[ End Quote ]--------------------------- Sadly, this is but a small victory in a big war...The last paragraph makes it even more so. But it is a happy thing nonetheless. Perhaps the protests should/could continue? We are full steam ahead now, why not keep going? --gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From pzakas at toucancapital.com Mon Jul 23 14:26:32 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:26:32 -0400 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <20010723151909.E4090@cluebot.com> Message-ID: i'd front the expense of the test and a cab fare between his home and the nearest testing facility (not to exceed $50 total cab fare.) but let's make this interesting: 1. Choate will receive a $500 bonus if he scores above 97th percentile (eg. 97th percentile loses, but 97.01th percentile wins.) (I'll pitch in $100 in prize money, the rest from cpunks?) 2. ETS scores must be presented in original unmodified form to an approved cpunks reader within 72 hours of Choate's receipt of official test scores. 3. Choate pays the EFF $500 for any score less than 85 percentile. Choate must send this money via an approved cpunks reader to the EFF to verify the inevitable transfer of funds. 4. If the ETS scores aren't received by Choate and cpunks within a reasonable period of time (not to exceed eight weeks from the day of the test), Choate will not be eligible for the $500 bonus, and Choate must pay the EFF $250 as per point 4 above. 5. If Choate does not take the exam by September 30, 2001 he must pay the EFF $250 as per point 4 above. phillip > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 3:19 PM > To: Petro > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > > > By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to > either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd > require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, > after expenses. > > That should be sufficient incentive. > > -Declan > > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:23:11PM -0700, Petro wrote: > > At 9:41 PM -0700 7/22/01, Black Unicorn wrote: > > >I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he > presents a valid ETS > > >score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. > > > > Willing to make me the same offer? > From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 14:30:27 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:30:27 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444E2@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found synchronized swimming.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: synchronized swimming", was sent from The Bells and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 14:32:26 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:32:26 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444E4@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Comprimise.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Comprimise", was sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 08:33:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:33:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > Bull. Missiles are vulnerable to various assaults during their entire > flight. The aerodynamic forces during boost and terminal flight My comment was limited to radiant energy weapons. As to those, the critical vulnerability exists during launch and boost phase. The target is slow, bright, large, has fuel on board and a nonarmored hull, which (as other posters observed) can be weakened with enough flux. The warhead in transit is fast, small, silent, and very, very hard to hit critically (well, it is designed to withstand reentry and nuclear antimissile near-hits), especially if it has a high-albedo coating, and if it is accompanied by a cloud of decoys. Either radiant energy weapon or kinetic kill, you're on the losing side here. > operations, vacuum effects (rupture a fuel tank and watch that baby > gyrate). True, but irrelevant. > > You need serious energy flux and tracking precision to terminate a > > warhead. > > Which has been demonstrated to be extant since the mid-80's when they > shot the first satellite down with a high altitude fighter. A missile in boost phase is not a satellite. A cloud of decoys is not a satellite. An armored warhead is not a satellite. The problem assymetry makes star wars a very expensive proposition. Using airborne hardware instead of LEO is a good move, but it falls orders of magnitude short of the target. The demos are just that: demos. Given that a limited strike is best conducted with remotely operated civilian aircraft, or plain old UPS, star wars seems like effect of industrial lobby. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 08:33:11 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:33:11 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > Bull. Missiles are vulnerable to various assaults during their entire > flight. The aerodynamic forces during boost and terminal flight My comment was limited to radiant energy weapons. As to those, the critical vulnerability exists during launch and boost phase. The target is slow, bright, large, has fuel on board and a nonarmored hull, which (as other posters observed) can be weakened with enough flux. The warhead in transit is fast, small, silent, and very, very hard to hit critically (well, it is designed to withstand reentry and nuclear antimissile near-hits), especially if it has a high-albedo coating, and if it is accompanied by a cloud of decoys. Either radiant energy weapon or kinetic kill, you're on the losing side here. > operations, vacuum effects (rupture a fuel tank and watch that baby > gyrate). True, but irrelevant. > > You need serious energy flux and tracking precision to terminate a > > warhead. > > Which has been demonstrated to be extant since the mid-80's when they > shot the first satellite down with a high altitude fighter. A missile in boost phase is not a satellite. A cloud of decoys is not a satellite. An armored warhead is not a satellite. The problem assymetry makes star wars a very expensive proposition. Using airborne hardware instead of LEO is a good move, but it falls orders of magnitude short of the target. The demos are just that: demos. Given that a limited strike is best conducted with remotely operated civilian aircraft, or plain old UPS, star wars seems like effect of industrial lobby. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 14:41:30 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:41:30 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444E8@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Book1.xls.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Book1", was sent from zaifu and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 16:05:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723150440.03e05848@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > >It's the one they use primarily. > > Only because the rocket exterior has not been "stealthed" via high > reflectivity and faceting. Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've got weight issues that this would entail. It's not like they've got a lot of overhead for the job. I suspect that faceting wouldn't be any more effective than a smoothly round body form, it could have aerodynamic effects as well (ie sharp corners at the facet edges - and yes they could be rounded - now you're moving back toward a round rocket planform). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsw at MIT.EDU Mon Jul 23 15:07:31 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:07:31 -0400 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <20010723151909.E4090@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 03:19:09PM -0400 References: <002901c11331$c69b8250$d2972040@thinkpad574> <20010723151909.E4090@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010723180731.A8780@positron.mit.edu> Declan McCullagh wrote: > By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to > either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd > require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, > after expenses. Make that total $400. I'm willing to do my part to shut Choate up. :-) -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 16:09:05 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:09:05 -0500 Subject: The Exploding Dictionary - Dictator Message-ID: <3B5CAE91.BBF334E3@ssz.com> http://projects.ghostwheel.com/dictionary?define=dictator -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 16:18:47 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:18:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence Message-ID: Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable cause for lethal force in self-defence? No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 16:22:41 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:22:41 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | When "Security Through Obscurity" Isn't So Bad Message-ID: <3B5CB1C1.D2337583@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/23/2043209.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 16:24:25 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:24:25 -0500 Subject: OPT: Slashdot | Dmitry Protests Running Message-ID: <3B5CB229.467FF183@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/23/1956254.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 16:58:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:58:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Oh really? Try that experiment on your own car. Actually I've seen windows break (and broken my fair share) on cars multiple times. Some from wrecks, some from gunshot (a .38 will bounce off a windshield for example) some from other things. I even once had a D based rocket fired directly into the windshield of a 68 Cougar, it was much larger and going a hell of a lot faster than a fire exstinguisher. It didn't go through the window. Didn't even break it. > Side windows shatter into a thousand pieces at the touch of a center punch. > A fire extinguisher is decidedly overkill for the job. A center puch (which focuses the force into a small area) isn't a fire extstinguisher. And windows are DESIGNED to break into a thousand little pieces, it absorbs the force of the impact. That way you don't get the sorts of car accident results that were so common in the country up through the 60's when the safety(!!!!) glass was put in all cars (admittedly Genoa isn't in the US). Things like no heads, amputated arms, chopped off noses and ears, etc. You should dig up some of the old safety crash films from that time and compare them to what happens today. > In any event, the test--at least in the US--for the use of deadly force > includes the concepts of reasonable fear of death OR GREAT BODILY INJURY. A fire extinguisher stuck in a window does none of the above. > Believe it or not, being blinded by a swarm of glass shards is considered > great bodily injury. I doubt seriously anyone would be blinded (and I'm blind in one eye from being struck with a 2x4 so I can speak from 1st person, yes it's great bodily injury. It's not justification for lethal force). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 23 19:08:05 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:08:05 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> References: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: At 8:35 PM -0500 7/23/01, Jon Beets wrote: >Uhhh yes it will go through the safety glass.. Look at the pics.. One person >had already put piece of lumber through it.. That was about a 15lb >extinguisher... From what I can tell from the photos the protester DID >intend harm to the police. Of course none of us were there so its really >hard to know the truth.. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Choate" >To: >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:18 PM >Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > > >> >> Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable >> cause for lethal force in self-defence? >> >> No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. First, "safety glass" is said to be "safety" because it tends to hold together instead of shattering into shards. It's not Lexan. Second, anyone who has spent time in a wrecking yard knows things go through safety glass all the time. Third, those of us who are old enough remember that Jayne Mansfield's head went right through the safety glass. Fourth, disputing Choate about the physics of safety glass is as pointless as arguing with him over Gauss's Theorem, prime numbers, the First Amendment, the history of Europe, law, or anything else he has his peculiarly indisyncratic views about. Fifth, if someone is trying to throw a fire extinguisher through either my front window or my side windows, I'm going to defend myself. I expect no less from the carabinieri. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 10:08:25 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:08:25 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Killing the 8 Swiss Anarchists In-Reply-To: <200107210116.VAA06975@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Oh, sorry, there are Feds listening with no sense of humor. What makes you think cpunks is that important? (Besides, the person profile is self-selecting, and largely harmless, and in case they bother to listen, they of course know it). -- Eugene <-- largely harmless From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 17:09:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:09:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: High Test Scores == Intelligence Message-ID: Genome, the story of a species in 23 chapters Matt Ridley Chpt. 6 ("Intelligence") ISBN 0-06-019497-9 Especially recommended by you 'bell curvers' (you know who you are)... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 19:18:15 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:18:15 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not-a-lawyer wrote: > Sorry, no backpedaling here... > I stand behind my previous > statements on this topic. Good idea. If you were to stand in front of it, you'd probably lose the other eye. > We're not talking about > 'self-defence' here... No, we're talking 'self-defense', this is the US, not the UK. > ...we're talking 'deadly force'. > Not 1-to-1. Nice strawman though. Jimbo, you ignorant slut, do you even know what a "straw man" argument is? DEADLY FORCE may be used in SELF-DEFENSE when one is in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. That's black-letter law. (There are some refinements, such as "to oneself or another," but they are not germane to the instant hypothetical of someone trying to bash you with a fire extinguisher through your car window.) > Couldn't pay me to be a lawyer. Don't know about 'couldn't, but I certainly wouldn't. Your verbal reasoning skills suck. > I do know what sort of law I want > my country to have and... "...don't confuse me with the fact"? > I've really got better things to > do with my time than some silly > elementary school bully schtick > you're emotionally attached to. Yeah, we can see that by the quantity and quality of your posts. God, what a chicken shit way to turn tail. You've got all kinds of monetary offers to take the LSAT and you wimp out. > If you'll pay the bill and > somebody can identify the weight > of the extinguisher and the model > of the car... Cluck, cluck, cluck. The victim in the car doesn't get to know what sort of extinguisher the rioter will use. After take a long paragraph to blame the victim Jimbo asserts: > A broken arm or hand is not 'great > bodily harm' by any definition > (except a self-serving one perhaps). Actually, it would fall under the definition of "great bodily harm," whether you think so or not. This is not a self-serving definition, you idiot, just a legal one that you happen to disagree with. > Amateurs with no experience around > those sorts of environments really > should keep their mouths shut about > how that stuff works. Yup Jimbo, you're right about that. > No, the cops panicked... You really should become a lawyer or even a judge. You seem to already have figured this one out by ESP or something. Wow, I'm fucking impressed with your legal acumen. > And then there is the point that > at no time is the police officer > relieved of their sworn duty to > protect the citizens, including > the rioters. Is THAT what cops swear to? I'd like to see a citation on that piece of bullshit. There is established case law in the US that says the police have no specific duty to protect anyone. > Self-defence is NOT a sufficient > release (there is a term for this > policy but it escapes me, I know > where to find it though and I'll > share it tomorrow). How convenient. Now don't you forget to "share" that with us tomorrow Little Jimmie. > This is a perfect example of why > the standard police psych > requirement of 'likes to be in > charge'... Did you pull that out of your ass or someone else's? > A police officers primary > responsiblity is not to save > their own life but to spend > it to save another. This guy is a laugh riot. Where does he dig this stuff up? What a moron. S a n d y From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 10:36:02 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:36:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <"F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E90861@exna07.securityd yn amics.com"> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > With high-powered lasers, one of the important destructive mechanisms > is blast - the outer layer of the illuminated object vaporizes, and > flies away from the rest of the target. The reactive force of this You're orders of magnitude away from such fluxes. You're trying to hit a moving, rapidly accelerating (possibly flying random evasion maneuvres) high-albedo vehicle -- through the Mach cone, through the 100 km of atmosphere filled with clouds, haze, random fluctuations, etc. Once it's past boost phase, it's essentially invulnerable. Chemical lasers have a limited numbers of shots, every energy leaving the vehicle must pass through it's optics aperture (which must be damn transparent). The vehicle is very complicated and delicate, and expensive. Given that you have to make many kills during few 100 s window, it doesn't appear cost-effective. If it's in LEO, I just launch a bucket of tungsten or depleted uranium birdshot in countersense orbit. Given a few iterations, I can keep surprising amounts of orbital space clean of any operable machinery. > gives the target a hell of a kick. Kicking off strict alignment with > it's flight path, or putting a big dent (or even better a hole) in the If you ablate a bit of hull sufficient to change course, you've killed the vehicle, whether solid boosters, or cryogenic fuel tanks. > side of a missile under several G's of stress traveling at a high Mach > number is not healthy for the missile. > > Laser's have problems though - as they heat the air the refractive > index changes, leading to 'blooming' or beam expansion. At too high a > power density they can also ionize the air, which makes it effectively > opaque. Dust, haze, and clouds are also problems. > > Using *very* short pulses eliminates many of these problems. We're not talking about a fuel pellet in the focus of a NOVA laser. From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 19:41:56 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:41:56 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inchoate whined: > Panicking is not justification for > making a wrong decision. What's your excuse, Jimbo? S a n d y From jya at pipeline.com Mon Jul 23 19:44:55 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:44:55 -0700 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release Message-ID: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> >From a press release today: --- Adobe Systems Incorporated and the Electronic Frontier Foundation today jointly recommend the release of Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov from federal custody. Adobe is also withdrawing its support for the criminal complaint against Dmitry Sklyarov. "We strongly support the DMCA and the enforcement of copyright protection of digital content," said Colleen Pouliot, Senior Vice President and General Counsel for Adobe. "However, the prosecution of this individual in this particular case is not conducive to the best interests of any of the parties involved or the industry. ElcomSoft's Advanced eBook Processor software is no longer available in the United States, and from that perspective the DMCA worked. Adobe will continue to protect its copyright interests and those of its customers." -- From reeza at flex.com Mon Jul 23 22:46:08 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:46:08 -1000 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723194509.0318aef0@flex.com> At 07:34 PM 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org (aka J.A. Terranson wrote: >To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com >cc: cypherpunks at lne.com Why do you send to two lists? From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 18:12:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:12:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Jimbo backpedaled: Sorry, no backpedaling here (how are you liking your bike anyway?). I stand behind my previous statements on this topic. > > I doubt seriously anyone would be > > blinded... > > Self-defense is justified on the reasonable fear of great bodily harm. We're not talking about 'self-defence' here, we're talking 'deadly force'. Not 1-to-1. Nice strawman though. > Whether you in your lawyer wannabe mind set "doubt" it or not is irrelevant. Couldn't pay me to be a lawyer. I do know what sort of law I want my country to have and as a citizen I have a right and a responsibility to express that and to act toward those ends. If that pisses you off (or bruises your ego to the point of wanting to 'prove' how smart you are in comparison), well so be it. I've really got better things to do with my time than some silly elementary school bully schtick you're emotionally attached to. "I'm right because I made a 97'th percentile on my LSAT!"....yeah, right. > Care to risk your other eye in an experiment? Even though you might "doubt" > you would be blinded, I doubt you would run the risk. Neither would someone > in a car were you threatening them with a fire extinguisher. What experiment? You paying the bill? If you'll pay the bill and somebody can identify the weight of the extinguisher and the model of the car I'd be willing to locate one in a junkyard and throw a fire extinguisher through it. I figure it would be worth a giggle or two (pretty low key rush really). I have safety equipment and 5 acres to work on. From simple low-velocity KE interactions the odds of being blinded are nil with standard safety equipment (which is why I ended up blind in one eye, don't have to tell me twice no siree bob). I'm regularly exposed to low to medium velocity particulate flying through the air because of my hobbies (ever seen a plate glass capacitor go when it's driving a .5MV Tesla coil? Woo Woo!!!! Now there's 'deadly force'). I also get exposed to deafness, flame, heat prostration, asphyxiation, poisoning, etc. on a regular basis too. As well as drowning, falls from extreme heights (50 to 4,000+ feet), nitrogen narcosis, large autonomous robots and mechanicals, etc. I used to do 'traditional' full contact TKD also (which raises another point, if a 12 year old can succesfully block a 150+ lb. man in a leap with an arm deflection a 15-20lb. fire extinguisher is nothing). I get off on it. One caveat, Ctl. Tx. is in our regular summer burn ban so no explosives or fire. You should go to srl.org and look at the Austin show ('96) for examples of the sort of shit I like to play with. Or get in touch with one of the Austin Robot Group and ask them about some of the stuff that we used to do on a regular basis at Discovery Hall (they sponsored the SRL show). Don would be a good one. If you can find anybody from DH that still works at the Austin Childrens Museum (sponsored by Dell) they can tell you some stories I'm sure. Why the hell weren't those cops wearing eye protection with all that shit flying around, it was the middle of a riot (I'll bet they had their body armor on). Their stupidity should rest squarely on their shoulders. Why was a vehicle without safety wire allowed anywhere near a known riot location? Hell, putting your hand up would have nullified any 'great bodily harm' potential (eg putting it on the inside of the glass where the extinguisher struck). A broken arm or hand is not 'great bodily harm' by any definition (except a self-serving one perhaps). Amateurs with no experience around those sorts of environments really should keep their mouths shut about how that stuff works. No, the cops panicked. The evidence isn't that they shot the protestor, but rather that they drove over his body in their panic to 'escape'. They lost their composure, they failed as police officers when it really, really counted. I don't believe 'murder' is appropriate but 'manslaughter' and being thrown off the force seem equitable. And then there is the point that at no time is the police officer relieved of their sworn duty to protect the citizens, including the rioters. Self-defence is NOT a sufficient release (there is a term for this policy but it escapes me, I know where to find it though and I'll share it tomorrow). This is a perfect example of why the standard police psych requirement of 'likes to be in charge' is a poor choice for police forces. The instant one of them clearly isn't they have no clue what to do. They resort to the one strategy they need to avoid at all costs - initiating violence. It's like watching a squirrel when my dogs get 'em trapped...round and round she goes until it's vittles time. When you strap that badge on you volunteer to become cannon fodder, the first line of defence (not offence). It is better a police officer gives up their life to save another than to take a life to save their own, that is where the true honor of the badge comes from, not the pistol but rather the willingness NOT to use it. The gun is there for those rare cases when it's necessary to use force to save anothers(!!!) life, not ones own. A police officers primary responsiblity is not to save their own life but to spend it to save another. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 11:13:18 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:13:18 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:14:02 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You >Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 00:23:38 -0400 >To: Dave Farber >From: Monty Solomon >Subject: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You > >THE POSTAL SERVICE HAS ITS EYE ON YOU > >By John Berlau > >July 14, 2001 > >Since 1997, the U.S. Postal Service has been conducting a >customer-surveillance program, 'Under the Eagle's Eye,' and reporting >innocent activity to federal law enforcement. Could you already be a >victim? > >http://www.moreprivacy.com/editorials/postaleye.htm One thing that should set off alarms, the postal service says, is a customer objecting to filling out an 8105-A form that requests their date of birth, occupation and drivers license or other government-issued ID for a purchase of money orders of $3,000 or more. If they cancel the purchase or request a smaller amount, the clerk automatically should fill out Form 8105-B, the suspicious-activity report. Whatever the reason, any customer who switches from a transaction that requires an 8105-A form to one that doesnt should earn himself or herself the honor of being described on a B form, the training manual says. But the suspicious customers might just be concerned about privacy, says Solveig Singleton, a senior analyst at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. And a professional criminal likely would know that $3,000 was the reporting requirement before he walked into the post office. I think theres a lot of reasons that people might not want to fill out such forms; they may simply think its none of the post offices business, Singleton tells Insight. The presumption seems to be that from the standpoint of the post office and the Bank Secrecy regulators every citizen is a suspect. Both Singleton and Nojeim say Under the Eagles Eye unfairly targets the poor, minorities and immigrants people outside of the traditional banking system. A large proportion of the reports will be immigrants sending money back home, Nojeim says. Singleton adds, It lends itself to discrimination against people who are sort of marginally part of the ordinary banking system or who may not trust things like checks and credit cards. For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 11:13:18 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:13:18 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:14:02 -0400 From: David Farber To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You >Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 00:23:38 -0400 >To: Dave Farber >From: Monty Solomon >Subject: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You > >THE POSTAL SERVICE HAS ITS EYE ON YOU > >By John Berlau > >July 14, 2001 > >Since 1997, the U.S. Postal Service has been conducting a >customer-surveillance program, 'Under the Eagle's Eye,' and reporting >innocent activity to federal law enforcement. Could you already be a >victim? > >http://www.moreprivacy.com/editorials/postaleye.htm One thing that should set off alarms, the postal service says, is a customer objecting to filling out an 8105-A form that requests their date of birth, occupation and drivers license or other government-issued ID for a purchase of money orders of $3,000 or more. If they cancel the purchase or request a smaller amount, the clerk automatically should fill out Form 8105-B, the suspicious-activity report. Whatever the reason, any customer who switches from a transaction that requires an 8105-A form to one that doesnt should earn himself or herself the honor of being described on a B form, the training manual says. But the suspicious customers might just be concerned about privacy, says Solveig Singleton, a senior analyst at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. And a professional criminal likely would know that $3,000 was the reporting requirement before he walked into the post office. I think theres a lot of reasons that people might not want to fill out such forms; they may simply think its none of the post offices business, Singleton tells Insight. The presumption seems to be that from the standpoint of the post office and the Bank Secrecy regulators every citizen is a suspect. Both Singleton and Nojeim say Under the Eagles Eye unfairly targets the poor, minorities and immigrants  people outside of the traditional banking system. A large proportion of the reports will be immigrants sending money back home, Nojeim says. Singleton adds, It lends itself to discrimination against people who are sort of marginally part of the ordinary banking system or who may not trust things like checks and credit cards. For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From drevil at sidereal.kz Mon Jul 23 13:26:39 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 23 Jul 2001 20:26:39 -0000 Subject: Customer service at Anonymizer/Cyberpass/Infonex Message-ID: <20010723202639.23915.qmail@sidereal.kz> Given the fact that the Anonymizer often comes up in Cypherpunk contexts, and that many of you are probably reading this list from cyberpass.net, which is hosted by Infonex (which is the same company as the Anonymizer, all run by Lance Cottrell, I believe) some of you may be interested in what Infonex's attitude about customer service is, and how they conduct themselves as a business. First, take a look at what they say about themselves: At http://www.infonex.com/top/statement.html, they claim, "All of our services are not worth much if you are not making good use of them. That is why service is first priority at Infonex." I signed up with them several years ago (after c2net closed down its shell account service). I had my email address @cyberpass.net printed on business cards. I gave it out to everyone. At one point, they stopped offering new shell account services, and then one day, I found that I couldn't log in to my account. I called their customer service number, and found it to be eternally busy, with full voice-mail boxes. Finally, I got through to someone there who explained that there were no more shell accounts; I should get my files out by ftp. That was annoying, but what was worse was that I went to get my files off and found they were all gone. I didn't need them urgently at the time, and I thought, "maybe they're doing maintenance on the server, and they will be restored later." I went back in with ftp today, and they were still gone. I called up their customer service. They basically said that the server crashed and files were lost. Fine, that's no problem. Why not restore from tape? "All the files on /r2 were not backed up, and they are lost." Years worth of email and other files, all lost. As they say, "That is why service is first priority at Infonex." I don't expect an apology from them; there's really nothing which is a substitute for operating in a professional manner. Every time I have had to deal with their customer service, they have always been less than helpful (that is when I can get through to them). Think twice before you do business with them. On the Internet of today, there are plenty of places that do web hosting. Why not choose one that operates in a professional manner? You may say, "if they lose data, that's great for the Anonymizer service!" That would be a naive assumption. Companies which have a culture of sloppiness or unprofessionalism will end up hurting their customers in a variety of ways. If they don't know to use RAID or backup their servers, they probably also don't know to check the security of their code. Sloppy one wy, sloppy every way. Beware. From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 23 18:29:16 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FW: Internet Piracy of Planet of the Apes (fwd) Message-ID: Headers stripped to protect the source... -----Original Message----- From: Anti Piracy Sent: 7/23/01 7:01 PM Subject: Internet Piracy of Planet of the Apes July 23, 2001 Via E-Mail Re: Internet Piracy of Planet of the Apes Dear Colleagues: We at Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation ("Fox") are writing to ask for your help and cooperation in the protection of our upcoming highly-anticipated motion picture, Planet of the Apes. Fox is the copyright owner and owner of exclusive distribution rights in all media, including the Internet, to this motion picture, which is being released in the United States and certain other countries on July 27, 2001. Some pre-release screenings are already taking place. As you are likely aware, technological developments currently allow the seriously detrimental and widespread infringement of intellectual property via the unauthorized electronic dissemination of films over the Internet. As widely reported in the media, up to 1 million illegal copies of first-run movies are now available on the Internet. Fox, in cooperation with the Motion Picture Association of America ("MPAA"), the U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI, is working to combat piracy of films on the Internet. We hope to be able to count on your assistance as well. We anticipate a high volume of Internet piracy of Planet of the Apes. Illegal film footage posted and/or available for download on the Internet is usually sourced from video recordings made in movie theaters and digitally transferred into electronic video formats. As Fox is making every effort to aggressively battle Internet piracy, it is likely that you will notice an increase in the volume of correspondence which you receive from Fox and/or from the MPAA. Therefore, we would like to take this opportunity to introduce you to the department responsible for combating this issue at Fox which is authorized to act on behalf of Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation, the copyright owner of Planet of the Apes. Our contact information is: Fox Intellectual Property Department (310) 369-4260 antipiracy at fox.com Working with you and our other partners, we hope to be able to identify and remove infringing files quickly. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA") and other civil and criminal statutes provide for severe penalties (including prison sentences of up to 10 years, forfeiture of equipment, and fines of up to $2 million per incident) against persons who record and post pirated copies of films on the Internet. We intend to pursue and prosecute infringers to the fullest extent possible in conjunction with the MPAA, the FBI, the Department of Justice, and through civil lawsuits. Congress included mechanisms in the DMCA which are designed to allow copyright owners to prevent and prosecute infringement of their rights on the Internet. The DMCA requires copyright owners to notify you, as the Internet Service Provider, of infringing activities, and imposes the obligation on ISPs to act expeditiously to remove or disable access to infringing materials. This letter is intended, in part, to give you advance information that you will be receiving additional notices pursuant to the DMCA from Fox, its representatives or the MPAA. We trust that we will be able to count on your prompt action in response to such notices requesting you to disable such infringing postings and/or downloads and stop the infringement of our rights. The posting and/or dissemination of unauthorized copies/recordings of all or part of a copyrighted film on the Internet (excluding trailers authorized and licensed for such use) infringes the copyrights in both the motion picture and the soundtrack. Fox, as owner of all rights relating to Planet of the Apes, has not authorized any distribution of the motion picture or its soundtrack over the Internet. We, therefore, have a good faith belief that any Internet postings of such video and/or audio materials constitute infringement. As you become aware or are notified of them, please remove any such postings that are accessible on or through your system or network, accessed by users through your system or network, or located using your information location tools, and disable access to any sites fulfilling these criteria. This letter provides you with information regarding our rights and of the fact that we have not authorized any Internet distribution of Planet of the Apes or other films. We would greatly appreciate your assistance in our fight against Internet piracy. We hope that you will help us by using all information location tools available to you to identify such infringing material and that you will immediately remove any such postings or disable access to any location where the infringing activities described herein are or will be occurring. Please try to expeditiously remove infringing postings and/or disable access to infringing material of which you become or are made aware. We may contact you in the coming weeks, as specific examples of infringing activity accessible on or through your network or system come to our attention, and we will reiterate our request that such items be removed or disabled immediately. Please keep in mind that extremely prompt action is and will continue to be necessary in order to prevent the widespread proliferation of infringing copies of Planet of the Apes. Since Fox has not authorized the sale of any promotional items, including press kits, we may also need your assistance in stopping the sale of such items, as well as production items. The information provided in this letter is provided under penalty of perjury. We look forward to working with you. Please contact us if you have any questions, or to provide us with updated contact information for your company. Sincerely, Fox Group Intellectual Property Department cc: Motion Picture Association of America From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 18:34:54 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:34:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A proletariat experiment... Message-ID: It looks like the G8 fire extinguisher was of the ~20lb variety. This is the same weight class as the bags of dog food I buy for my dogs. Next time you buy one get a friend to toss 'em back and forth. Then ask yourself, does that mass represent a deadly threat? The reality is that unless they snuck up behind you and hit you in the head a single might break a bone or arm but would not in any way be life threatening. If you've got access to skateboard wrist and elbow pads get a real fire extinguisher and try to block it with your hand. It ain't that hard. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 17:35:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:35:05 -0400 Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: ; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:26:32PM -0400 References: <20010723151909.E4090@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010723203505.A12973@cluebot.com> So far we have at least $450 in pledges, then. I think the below is interesting, and makes it competitive, with an 85-97 safe harbor for Choate where he neither makes nor loses money. We could have a cpunx escrow service hold the money while the competition is taking place. Also, I'd want a way to verify with ETS directly, but that's just quibbling over the details. I've deprocmailed Choate for a while. -Declan On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:26:32PM -0400, Phillip H. Zakas wrote: > i'd front the expense of the test and a cab fare between his home and the > nearest testing facility (not to exceed $50 total cab fare.) but let's make > this interesting: > > 1. Choate will receive a $500 bonus if he scores above 97th percentile (eg. > 97th percentile loses, but 97.01th percentile wins.) (I'll pitch in $100 in > prize money, the rest from cpunks?) > 2. ETS scores must be presented in original unmodified form to an approved > cpunks reader within 72 hours of Choate's receipt of official test scores. > 3. Choate pays the EFF $500 for any score less than 85 percentile. Choate > must send this money via an approved cpunks reader to the EFF to verify the > inevitable transfer of funds. > 4. If the ETS scores aren't received by Choate and cpunks within a > reasonable period of time (not to exceed eight weeks from the day of the > test), Choate will not be eligible for the $500 bonus, and Choate must pay > the EFF $250 as per point 4 above. > 5. If Choate does not take the exam by September 30, 2001 he must pay the > EFF $250 as per point 4 above. > > phillip > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com > > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at algebra.com]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh > > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 3:19 PM > > To: Petro > > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Subject: Re: THE INCHOATE LAWYER > > > > > > > > By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to > > either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd > > require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, > > after expenses. > > > > That should be sufficient incentive. > > > > -Declan > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:23:11PM -0700, Petro wrote: > > > At 9:41 PM -0700 7/22/01, Black Unicorn wrote: > > > >I will personally refund the money to Mr. Choate when he > > presents a valid ETS > > > >score report for the test to me or Mr. Sandfort. > > > > > > Willing to make me the same offer? From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Mon Jul 23 18:35:55 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:35:55 -0500 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: Message-ID: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Uhhh yes it will go through the safety glass.. Look at the pics.. One person had already put piece of lumber through it.. That was about a 15lb extinguisher... From what I can tell from the photos the protester DID intend harm to the police. Of course none of us were there so its really hard to know the truth.. Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:18 PM Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > > Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable > cause for lethal force in self-defence? > > No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > B.A. Behrend > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From alberto.chavez at essalud.sld.pe Mon Jul 23 18:38:19 2001 From: alberto.chavez at essalud.sld.pe (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto=20Ch=E1vez=20Ojeda?=) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:38:19 -0500 Subject: Inf-17 Message-ID: <200107240146.UAA31803@moq.essalud.sld.pe> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 33 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Mon Jul 23 18:41:11 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:41:11 -0500 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <00d101c113e1$b7e03ca0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Sounds to me like Adobe doesn't really like the bad press. When will these companies understand that all this is going to do is cause the programmers to write even more adobe cracking programs and make them available all over the net. They cannot stop it.... Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Young" To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 9:44 PM Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release > >From a press release today: > > --- > > Adobe Systems Incorporated and the Electronic Frontier > Foundation today jointly recommend the release of Russian > programmer Dmitry Sklyarov from federal custody. > > Adobe is also withdrawing its support for the criminal > complaint against Dmitry Sklyarov. > > "We strongly support the DMCA and the enforcement of > copyright protection of digital content," said Colleen > Pouliot, Senior Vice President and General Counsel for > Adobe. "However, the prosecution of this individual in > this particular case is not conducive to the best > interests of any of the parties involved or the > industry. ElcomSoft's Advanced eBook Processor > software is no longer available in the United States, > and from that perspective the DMCA worked. Adobe will > continue to protect its copyright interests and those > of its customers." > > -- From matt at rearviewmirror.org Mon Jul 23 20:42:33 2001 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:42:33 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01072320423300.01335@minerva.rearviewmirror.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3615 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Mon Jul 23 19:14:57 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:14:57 -0500 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: Message-ID: <00d701c113e6$6f71a850$03d36b3f@pacer.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:58 PM Subject: RE: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Oh really? Try that experiment on your own car. > > Actually I've seen windows break (and broken my fair share) on cars > multiple times. Some from wrecks, some from gunshot (a .38 will bounce off > a windshield for example) some from other things. I even once had a D > based rocket fired directly into the windshield of a 68 Cougar, it was > much larger and going a hell of a lot faster than a fire exstinguisher. > It didn't go through the window. Didn't even break it. There are two types of windows on most American cars... The first is the front windshield.. It has a film in it that keeps it generally in one piece unless enough force is put through it. As a firefighter we like this windshield since it is easily removed with a sharp knife around the seal (its gotta be removed before you can remove the top of the car). The side windows are another matter, they are made to shatter so that there are no large shards that may seriously injure someone... A model rocket does not really count as a good test on the strength of the window since most model rockets do not have the weight needed to damage much anything even with a D engine.. A .38 will bounce off water if shot at the right angle.. However it will not bounce off a windows, at any fair distance, if shot perpendicular to the winshield... All that aside you are assuming that the Italian vehicles have the same type glass we do in our American cars.. > > Side windows shatter into a thousand pieces at the touch of a center punch. > > A fire extinguisher is decidedly overkill for the job. > > A center puch (which focuses the force into a small area) isn't a fire > extstinguisher. And windows are DESIGNED to break into a thousand little > pieces, it absorbs the force of the impact. That way you don't get the > sorts of car accident results that were so common in the country up > through the 60's when the safety(!!!!) glass was put in all cars > (admittedly Genoa isn't in the US). Things like no heads, amputated arms, > chopped off noses and ears, etc. No that was not why safety glass was put in cars.. It was put in cars stop flying glass.... http://www.howstuffworks.com/question508.htm > > You should dig up some of the old safety crash films from that time and > compare them to what happens today. I have probably seen all of the most popular ones.. I also have some videos of emeregencies that I actually responded too. > > In any event, the test--at least in the US--for the use of deadly force > > includes the concepts of reasonable fear of death OR GREAT BODILY INJURY. > > A fire extinguisher stuck in a window does none of the above. > > > Believe it or not, being blinded by a swarm of glass shards is considered > > great bodily injury. > > I doubt seriously anyone would be blinded (and I'm blind in one eye from > being struck with a 2x4 so I can speak from 1st person, yes it's great > bodily injury. It's not justification for lethal force). How did the police really know it was a fire extinguisher.. It could have been a bomb for all they knew.. However I can tell you this.. If someone was coming at me with a 15lb metal object with the intent to hurl it at my head and I had a gun in my hand I would not hesitate to shoot with intent to kill... These people went from being protestors to being criminals by their own actions..... Jon Beets Pacer Communications From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 18:15:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:15:18 -0400 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:18:47PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010723211518.B12973@cluebot.com> On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:18:47PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable > cause for lethal force in self-defence? > > No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. I second the call for Jim to volunteer his car for projectile testing. Besides, wasn't the window open? -Declan From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 23 12:17:56 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:17:56 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Killing the 8 Swiss Anarchists In-Reply-To: <20010723145618.B4090@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Don't be silly. We know from sworn testimony in at least one (probably Too late, they should have strangled me at birth. > two, but my memory fails me) criminal trials that there are a number > of Feds who read cpunks in their official capacities. Whether they Damn, so obviously I don't need to apply for any jobs requiring a security clearance. Should have used one of them newfangled 'nymous remailers, and stuff. > have a sense of humor or not as left as an exercise for the observer. Well, of *course* one best searches for the lost car key under a streetlight, especially if one can be observed in execution of one's sworn duties (namely, to surf & to protect). And, who knows, one *might* find a car key, if one would search long and hard enough. Your tax money at work, and all. Why am I not surprised. Hmm, so this means a have to find an accomplice who has never published anything online, thus being clear of an author fingerprint before revealing my nefarious plans for world domination. It was sure easier, back in the olden days... From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 19:21:59 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:21:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: While it's true the hole would have reduced the cushion impact of breaking the glass it would not have eliminated it. NATO says it takes a transfer of approx. 85 Joules to kill. Figure out the velocity that takes for 15 lbs.. Compare to the velocity possible in this incidence. In addition the fact that a previous protestor had put a board through the window only goes to demonstrate the high level of emotional disruption these officers were exposed to. Panicking is not justification for making a wrong decision. Deadly force was not in any way justified. On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jon Beets wrote: > Uhhh yes it will go through the safety glass.. Look at the pics.. One person > had already put piece of lumber through it.. That was about a 15lb > extinguisher... From what I can tell from the photos the protester DID > intend harm to the police. Of course none of us were there so its really > hard to know the truth.. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 19:24:33 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:24:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723154932.0317dbd0@flex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > Don't mind the propaganda at the bottom of the images, just look at the > pictures and draw your own conclusions. The shooting occurred at the > back of the vehicle, where not even US vehicles have safety glass (and > the window was already broken out). Wrong, my Bronco has safety glass all around. So did my Mustang GT. My 86 Isuzu Pup also has safety glass all around. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 19:26:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:26:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > Third, those of us who are old enough remember that Jayne Mansfield's > head went right through the safety glass. They didn't have safety glass in the 50's. Those sort of accidents that got worse into the 60's are the reason they put safety glass in cars. Back in those old days it was 'tempered' which means heat treated to be hard, not shock resistant. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 23 21:26:31 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:26:31 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <20010723234429.B16719@cluebot.com> References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <00d101c113e1$b7e03ca0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <20010723234429.B16719@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 11:44 PM -0400 7/23/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Another effect will be companies that wish to take advantage of the >criminal sections of the DMCA will be more likely to cover their >tracks when dealing with the Feds. The next Adobe won't be so quick to >admit they contacted the FBI, for instance. > Something's that interesting is the _speed_ and _strength_ of the reactions against companies when they cross some line. Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next spring to recruit. My old employer, Intel, has also caught the wrath of the community a couple of times. Notably when they briefly tried to add a "processor I.D." They retreated, though Microsoft was not deterred a few years later from planning their own "registration" features. ("This system has a different printer attached to it than when it was Officially Registered with the Borg Mothership. We have concluded that you are a possible software pirate. Windows XP, Microsoft Office, Outlook Express, and Internet Explorer have been disabled. Contact our office during normal business hours and attempt to explain why we should reauthorize you. Have a Microsoft day!") Like Niven's "flash crowd" effect, the slash dot, mailing list, and online news services are making the anger of the users a terrible swift sword. Adobe became a pariah in a matter of days. Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. (Note to our FBI monitors: This is NOT a threat against Adobe. Note to Cypherpunks: With feebs like the Feebs out there, one can never assume that ordinary figures of speech will be understood.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 18:36:16 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:36:16 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444EA@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found AFCS_seattle2001.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: AFCS_seattle2001", was sent from carl & danielle and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 19:38:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:38:06 -0500 Subject: Jayne Mansfield - Too Hot To Handle - Biography - Part Ten Message-ID: <3B5CDF8E.938AE18@ssz.com> She wasn't decapitated... http://www.bombshells.com/jayne/bio/index10.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 19:41:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:41:34 -0500 Subject: Howstuffworks "How does safety glass work?" Message-ID: <3B5CE05E.8B9F35E6@ssz.com> http://www.howstuffworks.com/question508.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 21:43:47 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:43:47 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: C'punks, Notice how reverently Inchoate argues the minutia of the "extinguisher" topic? The reason is obvious. That argument boils down to disputed facts and personal opinion. It's a lot more comfortable than confronting the objective LSAT challenge. Funny, how he can argue the relative impact of rockets and fire extinguishers ad nauseam, but is so uncharacteristically silent about the HUNDREDS of dollars he has been offered to show some nominal degree of verbal reasoning ability on an objective test. Gee, I'd have thought he would have jumped at the chance to humiliate his tormentors by acing that puppy. Well, I guess we all know why he won't take--or even really discuss--this true test of his thinking ability. S a n d y > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On > Behalf Of Jim Choate > Sent: 23 July, 2001 21:12 > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: RE: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self > defence > > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Matt Beland wrote: > > > A "D based rocket" is no great amount of force. If it was light > enough to go > > as fast as you say, then it wouldn't go through plate glass, > much less a > > windshield. > > 20 N-s for a D. Figure a rocket that weighs about a pound. It's about > .2s after launch (it was launched horizontaly and about 30 ft. away). > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > B.A. Behrend > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From die at die.com Mon Jul 23 18:43:48 2001 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:43:48 -0400 Subject: Customer service at Anonymizer/Cyberpass/Infonex In-Reply-To: <20010723202639.23915.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from drevil@sidereal.kz on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:26:39PM -0000 References: <20010723202639.23915.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: <20010723214348.A27344@die.com> On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:26:39PM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote: > Given the fact that the Anonymizer often comes up in Cypherpunk > contexts, and that many of you are probably reading this list from > cyberpass.net, which is hosted by Infonex (which is the same company > as the Anonymizer, all run by Lance Cottrell, I believe) some of you > may be interested in what Infonex's attitude about customer service > is, and how they conduct themselves as a business. > I have been having an interesting problem with my cypherpunks feed from sirius.infonex.net - twice in the last 3 weeks or so it has suddenly and without warning started sending me empty email messages (zero length body) with essentially null headers (none of the normal email envelope headers and no indication of where the message came from other than owner_cypherpunks at cyberpass.net). And all flow of actual cypherpunks list messages stopped when these anomalous messages started. I presume that each null message I got was really meant to be a cypherpunks list mailing that somehow got trashed - superficially this looks like an out of space condition in one of the spool queues. This condition persisted in one case for 4 or 5 days and in the most recent case for about 3. And then things suddently started working again. So indeed their system administration may leave a bit to be desired - perhaps they are barely afloat financially and can't pay someone to watch things like space on their server queue file systems and backups. -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jul 23 19:52:47 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:52:47 -0500 Subject: FW: [IMC-News] IMC PRESS RELEASE: RESPONSE TO POLICE RAID ON GENOA SOCIAL FORUM AND IMC ITALIA OFFICES Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: imc-news-admin at lists.indymedia.org > [mailto:imc-news-admin at lists.indymedia.org] > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 9:07 PM > To: imc-news at indymedia.org > Subject: [IMC-News] IMC PRESS RELEASE: RESPONSE TO POLICE RAID ON GENOA > SOCIAL FORUM AND IMC ITALIA OFFICES > > > > ------------ please distribute widely -------------- > > Independent Media Center > Ad hoc Genoa Solidarity Committee > www.indymedia.org > > RESPONSE TO POLICE RAID ON GENOA > SOCIAL FORUM AND IMC ITALIA OFFICES > > 23 JUNE 2001 > > CONTACT: > Han Soete, IMC-belgium member > han at skynet.be > + 32 476 533 188 > > Doug Morris, IMC-chicago member > eredgreen at yahoo.com > (847) 657-0182 > > Sheri Herndon, IMC-seattle member > sheri at speakeasy.org > 206.261.0184 > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > The Independent Media Center Network (IMC) (http://www.indymedia.org) > demands that independent journalism and journalists be protected > from state > repression. We also demand this incident of grave repression be given the > full investigation and scrutiny that it deserves. Reports indicate that > black clad provocateurs were working in conjunction with Italian Military > Police in a vicious attack on peaceful organizers. > > MIDNIGHT RAID IN GENOA > > On early Sunday morning, Italian Police stormed the IMC press office armed > with tear gas and batons. Italian military police and unknown provocateurs > simultaneously raided the school building across the street that > has hosted > various groups participating in the Genoa Social Forum (GSF) > (http://www.genoa-g8.org/). > > Persons in the IMC at the time of the raid were forced to stand > against the > wall with their hands up while police searched equipment and personal > effects. Reports vary on the number of injuries sustained by IMC staff. > IMC-Italia reports that one IMC reporter from the UK is hospitalized with > serious injuries from the attacks. Materials reportedly seized during the > raid include audio mini disks, video tapes and computer hard drives. Other > reports allege that telecommunications equipment was damaged and/or > destroyed during the raid. In the same building, the police also > raided the > Radio Gap radio station and forced it off the air for a short time. > > The neighboring school building hosting GSF organizers was where the worst > violence occurred. Eyewitnesses claim that around 50 black clad > provocateurs > first entered the street in front of the school overturning dumpsters and > creating chaos. They then removed their black sweatshirts and entered the > school and began beating those inside indiscriminately; "most of the most > savage beatings were again not done by uniformed police but by characters > dressed in jeans and bandanas and helmets with 'police' written on their > T-shirts...." Hundreds of Italian police sealed off the street and a > helicopter flew low overhead as if on a military operation. Press in > attendance was kept back at a distance. > > Many individuals were awoken from their sleep and lined up along walls, > hands over heads. The ensuing brutal assault lasted over 45 minutes... > Horrible screams from the building could be heard on the streets below. > Afterwards, the floors and walls were covered in blood. Twenty > wounded were > carried out, many on stretchers, and three were unconscious (according to > BBC reporter Bill Hayton who was present during the raid). The > injured were > taken to ambulances that arrived with the police; reports today indicate > over 50 injured. Police claimed to have authority to enter and search the > building for weapons under Article 41 (an anti-terrorist act). Later an > Italian MP, Luisa Morgantini, arrived and told the police they had no such > authority since the schools resided on state-owned property, it > was at this > point the Police and provocateurs left the building. > > The Genoa Social Forum held a press conference Sunday morning > concerning the > details of the raid. (see > http://italy.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=6282). Volunteer lawyers > for activists report that computers were destroyed and that police stole > information during the raid that related to their organizational work, > including the transcripts of testimonies. Materials were also confiscated > from the IMC offices that might have provided legal documentation > of police > abuses in the preceding days. One lawyer stated, "The police blitz is > contrary to a state based upon rights and brings in a climate of terror." > > Throughout the day Sunday , the IMC newswire contained reports of > continued > police beatings of activists in Genoa, both in the streets and in the > jails... Reports indicate that many injured demonstrators are fearful to > seek treatment in hospitals since the police have been removing > people with > unexplained wounds and taking them to jail. At present over 500 hundred > people are missing and unaccounted for. > > A full investigation is called for, concerning the use of violent > provocateurs by police. Reports all weekend in Genoa have > asserted that much > of the property destruction and violent provocations were carried out by > individuals apparently working in conjunction with police and dressed like > black clad anarchists. Similar reports have surfaced in past > demonstrations > in Prague, Quebec and elsewhere. This disturbing claim and the subsequent > violence and closing of the GSF and IMC demand full attention. > > > > --------------------------------------------- ADDITIONAL INFORMATION > ----------------------------------------------- > > IMC BACKGROUND: A FREE PRESS NETWORK > > The IMCs, or Indymedia, are a network of independent media > organizations and > hundreds of individual journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate > coverage. > > Indymedia is a democratic media outlet with the mission to create radical, > accurate, and passionate tellings of truth. The first IMC was initiated in > Seattle, in the fall of 1999, during the demonstrations against the World > Trade Organization. The center was created to ensure that diverse voices > could be heard with a clarity and focus beyond the usual chatter of the > commercial media soundbite. > > The Indymedia website is an unusual phenomenon in cyberspace: visited by > literally millions, the network has led to the creation of over fifty > collaborative sites in cities all over the world. > > For people in dozens of countries, indymedia.org is news: news > that they can > rely on, news that does not have the bias of information/entertainment > corporations who have a stake in maintaining the status quo. The open > publishing software of the web site enables anyone with a basic > computer and > modem to post immediately on the news wire, without an intervening editor. > Indymedia has created a model for collaborative work that makes a real > difference. The IMC organizes collaborations between various > types of media > (print, photo, video, radio and internet) and between diverse > organizations > and individuals. The IMCs are non-hierarchical in nature. The > decisionmaking is by consensus and all participants, including > those who can > freely post on the newswire from home, are themselves empowered. > > The growing global justice movement, which is against corporate control of > globalization and for a more democratic and inclusive process of > setting the > world's priorities and allocation of resources, has depended on, and > benefitted from, the IMCs to provide breaking and unfiltered coverage of > diverse views, conferences, and demonstrations. > > > HISTORY OF STATE SUPPRESSION OF IMC AND THE FUTURE > > The recent raid on the Indymedia Center in Genoa is the latest in a series > of intimidations and threats to this movement of independent > media centers. > > As the Indymedia movement has grown, it has been subject to increasing > repression. From the first days in Seattle, when the IMC received > a tear gas > attack, there have been indications that authorities identified the IMC > movement as a target to intimidate and silence. > > At the IMC in LA during the August 2000 Democratic National Convention, a > police raid closed down the satellite van that was scheduled to > uplink live > IMC television to a national grassroots community television network. In > Prague, the Czech police raided the IMC offices, harassing and > intimidating > journalists and others. During the days preceding the Bush > inauguration, DC > police sent spy/provocateur agents to IMC-DC meetings. > > More recently, during the FTAA protests, the FBI visited the Seattle IMC > with a request for all computer logs and a gag-order injunction demanding > that no news of the request be made public on the net. The IMC in Quebec > also suffered police harassment and an attack in which tear gas was fired > into the center. Less than a month later, shortly after the Cincinnati > uprising over police brutality last spring, police served an order on a > coordinator at the Ohio Valley IMC, also requesting records and tape logs > and to appear before a Grand Jury. > > The IMC gained a victory for the independent press community when these > injunctions were withdrawn by the FBI after The Electronic Frontier > Foundation, the Center for Constitutional Rights, and the > Electronic Privacy > Information Center intervened to support the IMCs. > > The IMC global network will continue to fight hard to protect the > rights of > independent journalists around the world and to ensure that the voices of > our many diverse communities are accurately and respectfully covered and > made available to the rest of the world. As stated in Article 19 of the > Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to the > freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold > opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information > and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." > > CONTINUING IMC COVERAGE > > For ongoing coverage of the Genoa protests, stay tuned to IMC-Italia > http://italia.indymedia.org, and global IMC, http://www.indymedia..org. > > Eyewitness accounts of the IMC and GSF raids. > http://sf.indymedia.org/display.php?id=102064 > http://la.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=8871 > > An IMC NEWS BLAST will be released Tuesday for summary, news and > updates on > the protests in Genoa. Here's the link to the first one: > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-news/2001-July/000228.html. > > Also see: > Indymedia radio broadcasts: http://radio.indymedia.org/ > Indymedia print summaries (in distributable newsletter/flier format): > http://print.indymedia.org > IMC sites are providing detailed coverage include (see global website Left > column for links): France, UK, Belgium, Barcelona, Switzerland, Germany, > Austria, IMC-Sweden, Brasil, Argentina, Chicago, and New York City. > > > > _______________________________________________ > imc-news mailing list > imc-news at lists.indymedia.org > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-news From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 18:53:23 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:53:23 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444EC@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found MEMO.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: MEMO", was sent from Jack Turk and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Jul 23 21:56:21 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: from "Tim May" at Jul 23, 2001 09:26:31 PM Message-ID: <200107240456.f6O4uLE12826@artifact.psychedelic.net> Tim writes: > Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their > own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be > forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they > eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers > and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next > spring to recruit. Adobe's pulling back on Dmitry doesn't change the fact that the company lied in saying what was being distributed was "copyrighted Adobe software." Despite the EFF's effusive praise of Adobe, I don't plan to use any Adobe software in the future. In other DMCA news, does Fox really think they can stop "Planet of the Apes" from being posted to Usenet? This should be an amusing test of Usenet routing around "damage," as Fox Intellectual Property attempts to spam every newsadmin in the world with takedown notices faster than the machines can talk to each other. Bailing with a teaspoon if you ask me. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 22:00:30 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:00:30 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <20010724004319.A24508@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Declan McCullagh wrote: > But the Feds won't back down as > readily as Adobe, I wager. They > don't have to worry about what > programmers think, they don't > have to worry about what Wall > Street thinks (at least DOJ > doesn't), they don't have to > worry about slipping revenue > in a soft economy and users > turning to non-Adobe tools. > In short, they have a different > incentive structure... True, it may be different, but it is an incentive structure (or, more accurately, a disincentive structure). For example, I don't thing the Federal Baby Incinerators really want to create another Wen Ho Lee or Richard Jewel fiasco. They already have enough egg on their face. S a n d y From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 22:23:10 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:23:10 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <20010724011157.A25089@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Declan McCullagh wrote: > Here's a prediction: This case will > never come close to generating the > same amount of publicity, by at > least two orders of magnitude. > > Folks on the Net have a bad habit > of overemphasizing how important > these cases are. This is not > important to the people in DC who > count. I couldn't agree with you more, nevertheless my point still stands that disincentives do exist and the Federal Baby Incinerators don't need yet another incrementally damaging error on their rap sheet. S a n d y From spam at nukewoody.com Mon Jul 23 22:38:57 2001 From: spam at nukewoody.com (Duncan Idaho) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:38:57 -0700 Subject: Jim Choate's shadow Message-ID: <200107240547.AAA22773@einstein.ssz.com> Long ago, I killfiled Mr CHoate. Once in a while, though, my inbox is filled with dreck, of which Jim in the indirect origin. Really guys, for the amount of noise Jim adds to the list, there are several of you who seem to amplify it nicely. I can "slot filter" Mr Choate via killfile, but the reverberation (which I can't filter) is becoming deafening. Woody (a lurker) ---------- >From: Tim May >To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com >Subject: CDR: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence >Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001, 7:08 PM > > At 8:35 PM -0500 7/23/01, Jon Beets wrote: >>Uhhh yes it will go through the safety glass.. Look at the pics.. One person >>had already put piece of lumber through it.. That was about a 15lb >>extinguisher... From what I can tell from the photos the protester DID >>intend harm to the police. Of course none of us were there so its really >>hard to know the truth.. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jim Choate" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:18 PM >>Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence >> >> >>> >>> Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable >>> cause for lethal force in self-defence? >>> >>> No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. > > First, "safety glass" is said to be "safety" because it tends to hold > together instead of shattering into shards. It's not Lexan. > > Second, anyone who has spent time in a wrecking yard knows things go > through safety glass all the time. > > Third, those of us who are old enough remember that Jayne Mansfield's > head went right through the safety glass. > > Fourth, disputing Choate about the physics of safety glass is as > pointless as arguing with him over Gauss's Theorem, prime numbers, > the First Amendment, the history of Europe, law, or anything else he > has his peculiarly indisyncratic views about. > > Fifth, if someone is trying to throw a fire extinguisher through > either my front window or my side windows, I'm going to defend > myself. I expect no less from the carabinieri. > > > --Tim May > > > > > > -- > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From sandfort at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 22:47:28 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:47:28 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > Do you *honestly* think they > [Federal Baby Incinerators] give > a shit? Are you really *that* > naive? Yeah, guess so. I think the Feebs really don't like to get called on the carpet. Their power and privilege are at stake. Of course they don't want that threatened. Do you *honestly* think they want to see their prerogatives reduced? I don't. S a n d y From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jul 23 21:11:48 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:11:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <01072320423300.01335@minerva.rearviewmirror.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Matt Beland wrote: > A "D based rocket" is no great amount of force. If it was light enough to go > as fast as you say, then it wouldn't go through plate glass, much less a > windshield. 20 N-s for a D. Figure a rocket that weighs about a pound. It's about .2s after launch (it was launched horizontaly and about 30 ft. away). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Mon Jul 23 21:24:39 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:24:39 -0500 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <20010723233944.A16719@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <003f01c113f8$8e056560$03d36b3f@pacer.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Declan McCullagh" To: "Jim Choate" Cc: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:39 PM Subject: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:21:59PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > NATO says it takes a transfer of approx. 85 Joules to kill. > > 1. It all depends on where and how it's applied. Give me a scalpel > and I suspect I can kill you with far less than 85 Joules. > > 2. Even if we dismiss point #1 above and assume for the same of > argument death was impossible, serious injury, blinding, etc. was > possible. And use of deadly force seems appropriate in cases where > you have a reasonable belief that you're about to be seriously > injured, even crippled. > > Although Choate does make one point, and that's the guy getting run > over once or twice. Once I can understand -- the police vehicle > seems like it's up against a wall in the front. Twice seems unusual > and worth an explanation. > > -Declan Absolutely.. People make mistakes... People also do things on purpose.. I am just not the kind of person that automatically assumes someone does anything on purpose... I have been in alot of intense situations in my career as a firefighter in the Air Force and I can honestly say people will do the most stupid things you would have ever imagined in intense situations. I would be interested to find out what the investigation turns up after this.. Jon Beets Pacer Communications From reeza at flex.com Tue Jul 24 02:28:48 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:28:48 -1000 Subject: A proletariat experiment... In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723231519.031a6570@flex.com> At 10:11 PM 7/23/01, Petro wrote: >>The bottle is a little smaller than a 15 lb bottle, of course the 15 lb's >>refers to the weight of the bottle itself, it is closer to 50 lbs if it is >>fully charged with carbon dioxide (which we have no way to know whether it >>it was charged or what it was (once?) charged with). > > Well, memory may be playing tricks on me, but from what I remember >from my fire fighting training in the Marine Corps, 15 pounds was the weight >of the agent. I spoke of a standard 15 lb CO2 bottle, fully charged with nozzle and horn they weigh 49.5 lbs in the US Navy, if you are trying to remember those same bottles then you are remembering incorrectly. The bottle was about the same diameter but shorter in height, so maybe PKP but I don't think the civilian community has a true equivalent to that. PKP bottles have 18 lbs of agent. > A 50 pound bottle would really defeat the purpose of a portable >fire extinguisher. Tell it to the numbskull who designed the FP-180. That number is supposed to represent the # of gallons per minute the device will flow, but is often jokingly associated with the weight of the "portable" piece of firefighting gear. Finally, the navy dispensed with them, outside of a few fixed-type installations where there was no pretense of "portability." >There are many people who would have trouble holding the >bottle in one had and pointing the nozzle with the other. Such people are weeded out in boot camp. There are many people who cannot pat their head and rub their tummy while chewing bubblegum, they are weeded out in boot camp too. Many of them cannot even look where they are walking, and so we find them walking in front of traffic and all manner of places they should not be. > Even a 35 pound (25 pounds agent, 10 pounds bottle) bottle is hard >to manage at times. No shit. So remember it being heavier, it was when fully charged. > Depending on the construction of the container you could add another >5 to 10 pounds for the bottle etc. 15 lbs bottle, 50 lbs total weight including agent. I'll check out the security classification on the PMS card and if it's unrestricted, scan one and post the url after I upload it. Reese From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 20:39:44 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:39:44 -0400 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:21:59PM -0500 References: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <20010723233944.A16719@cluebot.com> On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:21:59PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > NATO says it takes a transfer of approx. 85 Joules to kill. 1. It all depends on where and how it's applied. Give me a scalpel and I suspect I can kill you with far less than 85 Joules. 2. Even if we dismiss point #1 above and assume for the same of argument death was impossible, serious injury, blinding, etc. was possible. And use of deadly force seems appropriate in cases where you have a reasonable belief that you're about to be seriously injured, even crippled. Although Choate does make one point, and that's the guy getting run over once or twice. Once I can understand -- the police vehicle seems like it's up against a wall in the front. Twice seems unusual and worth an explanation. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 20:44:29 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:44:29 -0400 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: <00d101c113e1$b7e03ca0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>; from Jon.Beets@pacer.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:41:11PM -0500 References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <00d101c113e1$b7e03ca0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <20010723234429.B16719@cluebot.com> Another effect will be companies that wish to take advantage of the criminal sections of the DMCA will be more likely to cover their tracks when dealing with the Feds. The next Adobe won't be so quick to admit they contacted the FBI, for instance. Or, pace Blacknet, the next company that wants to use DMCA against a hacker will target the organizers of the protests and blackmail them anonymously. :) -Declan On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:41:11PM -0500, Jon Beets wrote: > Sounds to me like Adobe doesn't really like the bad press. When will these > companies understand that all this is going to do is cause the programmers > to write even more adobe cracking programs and make them available all over > the net. They cannot stop it.... > > Jon Beets > Pacer Communications > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Young" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 9:44 PM > Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release > > > > >From a press release today: > > > > --- > > > > Adobe Systems Incorporated and the Electronic Frontier > > Foundation today jointly recommend the release of Russian > > programmer Dmitry Sklyarov from federal custody. > > > > Adobe is also withdrawing its support for the criminal > > complaint against Dmitry Sklyarov. > > > > "We strongly support the DMCA and the enforcement of > > copyright protection of digital content," said Colleen > > Pouliot, Senior Vice President and General Counsel for > > Adobe. "However, the prosecution of this individual in > > this particular case is not conducive to the best > > interests of any of the parties involved or the > > industry. ElcomSoft's Advanced eBook Processor > > software is no longer available in the United States, > > and from that perspective the DMCA worked. Adobe will > > continue to protect its copyright interests and those > > of its customers." > > > > -- From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 23 21:47:31 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:47:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. While it is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I predict that the "backlash" will be gone in a mere matter of weeks, if not days. Let's face it: the people most likely to be Adobe *customers* are anything but hungry. A fat customer is an apathetic customer... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 23 23:48:55 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:48:55 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <20010724020505.A26225@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200107240648.f6O6msr08186@slack.lne.com> On Monday, July 23, 2001, at 11:05 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: > True. And I'll agree with you, this time -- I think the Feds > will, in the end, drop this case, if the protests continue. And I'll bet the Feds drop it because their corporate backer, Adobe, has abandoned them. They don't like to be left twisting slowly in the wind. And the more Adobe now tries to "spin" their role, the more the Feds are left twisting. The AG will likely say "Fuck that noise" (in his own Christian lingo) and the case will quietly go away. BTW, I certainly have never argued the case would receive even 1% of the attention the Wen Ho Lee or Richard Jewel cases got. But it seems to be getting about the same level of attention that Intel's "processor ID" proposal got (modulo differences in the issues). The more lasting effect is not what Joe and Alice Sixpack think of Adobe ("Huh?"), but how it energizes parts of the hacker community. A bunch of hackers are now likely to expand the cracking of Adobe's ebooks by leaps and bounds. It'll be a badge of honor.... --Tim May From wcs at idiom.com Tue Jul 24 00:04:17 2001 From: wcs at idiom.com (billstewart@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) Message-ID: <200107240704.AAA14296@idiom.com> > My comment was limited to radiant energy weapons. As to those, the > critical vulnerability exists during launch and boost phase. The target is > slow, bright, large, has fuel on board and a nonarmored hull, which (as > other posters observed) can be weakened with enough flux. At least one of the propaganda articles said the kill mechanism was to make a hole in the hull near the fuel tank. High albedo may help the missile here as well as the warhead, though it's probably harder to deploy decoys at launch and boost phase than re-entry. > The demos are just that: demos. Given that a limited strike is best > conducted with remotely operated civilian aircraft, or plain old UPS, star > wars seems like effect of industrial lobby. The primary purpose of demos is to create public pressure to get increased funding, plus to remind the public that we still have a nuclear-war-industrial-complex that's Protecting Our Country Against Somebody, so in case EastAsia ever becomes a credible threat to Oceania, Our Brave Military will have the infrastructure to do something about it. Meanwhile of course, any foreign terrorist that wants to nuke the US with a physically small weapon only needs to pack it in cocaine and bring it in with the regular shipments, while Rogue Nations that can only make large Fat Boy style weapons need cruder methods, like bribing a crane operator to load the wrong container on a ship bound for New York or Los Angelese harbor. X-Authenticated-User: idiom ~~~ Thanks; Bill Stewart From andrew at pokerspot.com Tue Jul 24 01:14:29 2001 From: andrew at pokerspot.com (Andrew Woods) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:14:29 -0800 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010723233902.00a70bf0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> If you look at the Reuters image of Carlo holding the fire extinguisher, he's holding it below head-level. In my opinion, that leaves three options: Carlo was going to chuck the extinguisher underhand (and sideways to the vehicle, so it would've bounced off) at a low velocity, or Carlo was holding the fire extinguisher out in front of him as DEFENSE, or he was merely holding a fire extinguisher. It's not clear how much time elapsed between the picture of Carlo alive, and the next image, which is him lying on the ground with his brains all over the ground. However, the gun is can be seen and it's pointed at his head, so I assume it wasn't very long. There's an image of Carlo under the land rover, with the cop who shot him covering or wiping his face. Neither man in the jeep were wearing gas masks with face shields, but every other carabinieri member seen in the series is wearing them. The other thing that may not have been mentioned is that there were Carabinieri within 30 feet of the land rover, and that Carlo was in the Green Zone, supposedly the safe area for protests. There are pictures of about 10 fellow members of law enforcement a short distance away, including one with both hands on his forehead area. He appears anguished. There's an image of Carlo under the land rover, with the cop who shot him covering or wiping his face. there's a PDF on indymedia.org with the pictures i'm talking about at http://italia.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/carlo-photofile.pdf. Most of this analysis is paraphrased from the pdf, but it seems reasonable. this may be a repeat of the powerpoint presentation post, but it's more cross-platform. At 05:35 PM Monday 07/23/2001, you wrote: >Uhhh yes it will go through the safety glass.. Look at the pics.. One person >had already put piece of lumber through it.. That was about a 15lb >extinguisher... From what I can tell from the photos the protester DID >intend harm to the police. Of course none of us were there so its really >hard to know the truth.. > >Jon Beets >Pacer Communications > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Choate" >To: >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:18 PM >Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > > > > > > Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable > > cause for lethal force in self-defence? > > > > No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. > > > > > > -- > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > > > B.A. Behrend > > > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- Andrew Woods Pokerspot.com Customer Support From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 23 22:22:54 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:22:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IP: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Whatever the reason, any > customer who switches from a transaction that requires an 8105-A form to > one that doesn嚙緣 should earn himself or herself the honor of being > described on a B form,嚙 the training manual says. Does anyone have a link to this "B" form, or more exact data on it's contents? It seems a little pointless to fill out a form saying that "Unknown person refused to ID for a transaction of $3000.00. This "suspect" was 5'8" and 125#, brn hair, brn eyes and wearing jeans and a tee-shirt" -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 00:31:08 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:31:08 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:08 PM -0500 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Petro burbled upon us thusly: > >> Another point you bring up is that a LEO should not enforce laws >> that "clearly" violate the constitution. >> >> A LEO cannot do that *and still be a LEO*. He can refuse by >> resigning, but if he simply takes the position that he will only >> enforce laws he thinks are constitutional he causes a violation of one >> of the fundamental underpinnings of the constitution, that all people >> are equal under the law, and that the law is supposed to be equally >> applied. > >Maybe you should look at the oaths that are sworn to by all public >employees, of which LEOs are but a small maggot in a big sewer. All of I took one of those 16 years ago as a US Marine, and again 5 years later as a member of the National Guard. I've also spent a fair amount of time thinking about that oath, and the ramifications of it. >them contain a provision whereby there swear to uphold the >constitution. Not to follow orders which may or may not be >chain-of-command valid, and *hopefully* constitutional. At the risk of going Choatien and stepping far beyond any degrees I may have, the position that each and every LEO in this country *should* (as opposed to does) decide for himself whether a law fits his understanding of the constitution before enforcing it is not only unworkable, but--if the LEO truly believes in the concepts of "Rule of Law", wrong headed. As a further disclaimer, let me say that I don't think "The Legal Community" agrees with me. They're agreement or not isn't a factor in my thinking. I already know (as Declan points out) that Reno doesn't agree with me, but from her actions it's quite clear she doesn't believe in the Rule Of Law--at least not in the sense I've been using it. Now, in an ideal world the constitution would be clearly worded and the semantics would be clearly understood by the people who live under it. However, "It ain't like that". English is by no means an ISO (or even ANSI) standard, and even reasonable people can disagree on the complexity generated by the various articles and sections of the constitution and the amendments. Look for example to the issue of the Second Amendment. The clearest plain word interpretation of that amendment is that the no one has the ability to infringe on the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms. Fairly simple. Does that then mean that just about every firearm law in the country is invalid on it's face? Well, no. See, the same constitution also grants Congress the power to regulate interstate trade, so as long as they don't "infringe" on the right, they have a wide latitude to set standards etc. Or do they? What are the limits of that particular clause? Further more, what is *constitutionally* an infringement? Is it acceptable for Congress to set (legitimate) product reliability standards? (e.g. to require a pistol must be capable of firing rounds between failures etc.) or certain safety guidelines (e.g. that every handgun be fitted with a safety device of some sort that keeps it from firing unless the trigger has been pulled). Let's get even finer. Do you *really* want your local beat cop to be making decisions on what does and doesn't fall into "protected speech" (or even whether there is a distinction there to be made?) Or how about certain laws of a very questionable nature that make it a crime for groups larger than to gather without a permit. On it's face these are unconstitutional, but if the vast majority of police in a district *don't* enforce these laws, but one or two do (under the belief that the constitution only applies restrictions to the state and federal government, not the city governments (there are people who believe this, and absent the explicit incorporation by the 14th (which even by the appellate courts is applied non-uniformly so far) they may have a legitimate argument) then you have a case where you are just hanging out with some 5 or 10 of your closest buddies as you do every day, and the normal beat-cop, who doesn't enforce this law because it's unconstitutional doesn't say anything, but his fill-in on a sick day rousts you all and takes you to jail. It's happened in Chicago, and worse (see below). There are at least 3 states a law can be in vis-a-vis constitutionality: (1) Adjudged unconstitutional. (2) Adjudged constitutional. (3) Not adjudged relative to it's constitutionality. Now, things get a little less clear. In the case of (1) and (2) there is the question, not only of exactly what the court upheld or didn't (see the recent case of the Oakland Cannibis decesion, widely reported to have the SC declare Medical Marijuana unconstitutional, but actually simply said that "No silly, of COURSE federal law trumps state law in a Federal Court"), but *which* court upheld or struck down a the law. For instance, in the Peoples Republic of California there is no right to keep and bear arms. Since it's not in the State Constitution, and the BoR only applies to the *collective*, not the individual, then there is no individual right. So here we have a fairly high level court saying we don't have a right which *most* people in this country say we do (the majority believes that the 2nd "gives" the individual the right to keep and bear arms, they just may not agree with that right). What is a LEO to do? In *his* belief, the court is wrong, but according to *THE COURT* there is no constitutional protection of firearm ownership, therefore just about any laws that don't run roughshod over other protections (that the court may or may not have spoken on). Let us then look at the case in the 5th district court--Emerson. By all appearances (and this is largely supposition at the moment) the justices in that case seem to be of the opinion that the 2nd does give an individual right to arms. But an officer in, say New Orleans doesn't agree, he is of the opinion that the 2nd *only* applies to organized militia members, and only to military firearms. So even after the court rules on Emerson (assuming for the sake of argument that they do rule strong in favor of an individual right) this member of NOs finest continues to arrest people like Dr. Emerson on weapons charges. Back to Chicago for a second. See, in Chicago, at least until 2 years ago, they had this "anti-gang" ordinance that (get this) prohibited loitering in public parks, and prohibited groups of more than (where was somewhere between 3 and 7, I think it was 5, but I can't remember exactly) from loitering on public property. This was a very, very sparsely enforced law, and was most often used by Police to harass people who were legitimately gang members. It was also occasionally used to harass kids who weren't gang members, but were black or hispanic and lived in less than middle class neighborhoods. Thing is, the Illinois Supreme Court had already declared it unconstitutional. But the CPD kept enforcing it. I guess that was Ok, because the CPD (at least a number of it's members) believed that, in their considered opinion, the law *was* constitutional, and the Courts Be Hanged. Of course, if you were white and/or "properly" dressed and/or in a decent neighborhood, you didn't have to worry. Yup. The kind of country I want to live in, one where the police get to decide the rules. The main thrust of the argument against this is that LEOs take an oath which in part instructs them to "protect and defend the constitution", and that from this they then get both the privilege and the responsibility of deciding on their own what is and isn't constitutional. But their very oath prevents this. See, in the constitution there is what is called "Separation of Powers". One branch to make the laws, One branch to enforce them, and one branch to judge. The police belong to the Executive branch. It is not only not their job--as officers of the law--to judge the law, they are not *as police officers* supposed to. They are supposed to carry out the dictates of the legislature, tempered by the courts. The common retort to this is "what if they are told to enforce a law they *know* is unconstitutional. The answer is, if the law falls into case (3) above, that being that the law is, as Dimitri is facing, a law that has not been tested, they don't know, and they have 2 options. The first option is to go ahead and enforce it, relying on the courts to sort it out, after all that is the courts job, and once the court renders it's decision (falling in to (1) or (2), then that tells them what they are supposed to do. The second option is, in the face of a law that is so obviously unconstitutional (for instance a law ordering a door to door search for and confiscation of firearms and the incarceration of the owner for example) is to hand in their badge. Now, those are the only two options *as LEOs*. Every LEO is also a citizen of this country (more or less, there may be some green card holders as police, I don't know), and as citizens, in fact people living in this country they have the right to speak out against things they find unconstitutional or wrong. They have the right to the soap box, the ballot box, and failing all those, the cartridge box. There is also the argument that there are occasionally orders that because of their immediacy it leaves the officer no time for one of those two options--for instance the case of being ordered to fire into a relatively peaceful gathering. That case has little to do with constitutionality and more to do with the legality of the order. No one is obligated to follow orders they belive are illegal, but they best be damn sure. >As for refusing to enforce laws which are personally believed to be >unconstitutional, this goes on all the time, both officially [Sherriff >Blah refuses to enforce law X - publicly], and unofficially Officer Y >refuses to enforce law X - privately]. And for the reasons I've outlined in this post, and in my previous post, I believe both of these cases the individuals are acting improperly. In the first, the Sherriff does his constituency a disservice. If he believes the law unconstitutional he should use his office to arrange a challenge of that law, otherwise he only "protects" those under his jurisdiction while he's in office (of course, this could simply be a ploy to retain office as in every county I've lived in the Sheriff was elected.). As to the individual police officer, they have to do as their conscience and beliefs guide them. I find more often than not LEOs tend to fall on the side of enforcing laws of questionable constitutionality and tend to ignore laws they find "silly" or "annoying" rather than question their constitutionality. >How many weeks before middle schools reopen, anyway? You and Reese good friends? From measl at mfn.org Mon Jul 23 22:34:53 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:34:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > I couldn't agree with you more, nevertheless my point still stands that > disincentives do exist and the Federal Baby Incinerators don't need yet > another incrementally damaging error on their rap sheet. Do you *honestly* think they give a shit? Are you really *that* naive? > S a n d y -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 00:37:32 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:37:32 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonp ost.com) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:43 AM +0300 7/24/01, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >But I also think the question Choate posed is a valid one: what happens when >the target is *not* a ballistic missile, but people, equipment and vehicles >on the ground, normal aircraft, or air-to-air missiles? One would think that >the lower velocity differentials and expected distance-to-target make aiming >much easier, and that effective counter-measures would be significantly more >difficult to erect, considering that such conventional targets have >properties very different from those of ballistic missiles (e.g. aircraft >raise questions of aerodynamics and payload efficiency, wearable materials >with albedos high enough are difficult to come up with, rotation and >aerodynamic engineering cannot be used to dissipate the heat generated by a >hit, people/cars/tanks/whathaveyou often need to be difficult to spot using >aerial and satellite imaging, and so on). > >Such weapons capability could be *quite* useful, especially if the 747 can >be effectively defended against anti-aircraft missiles, and the laser has a >range and targeting capability on par with anti-ballistic missile >applications. Hits on critical infrastructure, control over a nation's >airspace, death-from-above FUD, that sort of thing. > IANALS (laser specialist), but I am given to understand that with the high energy demands of these types of lasers, and the problems with getting good energy levels through airborne dust, clouds, etc (and especially in combat areas where dust and other airborne particles are rather common) make lasers less than ideal against ground or low flying targets. Against high flying aircraft, you may be right. From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 21:43:20 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:43:20 -0400 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:26:31PM -0700 References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <00d101c113e1$b7e03ca0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <20010723234429.B16719@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010724004319.A24508@cluebot.com> Right. The organizing tools available to activists nowadays are substantial. Free software including email-to-web gateways like mhonarc, front ends based on Slash, mailing lists running majordomo or mailman, back ends based on MySQL, launch-and-forget websites running Linux and Slash -- all these allow programmer-activists to launch online campaigns in minutes. But the Feds won't back down as readily as Adobe, I wager. They don't have to worry about what programmers think, they don't have to worry about what Wall Street thinks (at least DOJ doesn't), they don't have to worry about slipping revenue in a soft economy and users turning to non-Adobe tools. In short, they have a different incentive structure and it's one where programmer-types are much less influential. Sklyarov is still in jail, and not one legislator has called for a repeal of the DMCA (one, perhaps, has criticized it mildly). In my Wired article that will appear tomorrow, I write: That leaves the Free-Dmitry contingent wary of celebrating -- and free to target the U.S. government, which may not back down to pressure from irate programmers as quickly as a firm that's based in the heart of Silicon Valley. At least there's one consolation for Adobe: They're no alone, and can take a proud if somewhat humbled seat next to Intel and Microsoft. :) -Declan On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:26:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Something's that interesting is the _speed_ and _strength_ of the > reactions against companies when they cross some line. > > Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their > own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be > forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they > eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers > and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next > spring to recruit. > > My old employer, Intel, has also caught the wrath of the community a > couple of times. Notably when they briefly tried to add a "processor > I.D." They retreated, though Microsoft was not deterred a few years > later from planning their own "registration" features. > > ("This system has a different printer attached to it than when it was > Officially Registered with the Borg Mothership. We have concluded > that you are a possible software pirate. Windows XP, Microsoft > Office, Outlook Express, and Internet Explorer have been disabled. > Contact our office during normal business hours and attempt to > explain why we should reauthorize you. Have a Microsoft day!") > > Like Niven's "flash crowd" effect, the slash dot, mailing list, and > online news services are making the anger of the users a terrible > swift sword. Adobe became a pariah in a matter of days. > > Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. > > (Note to our FBI monitors: This is NOT a threat against Adobe. Note > to Cypherpunks: With feebs like the Feebs out there, one can never > assume that ordinary figures of speech will be understood.) > > --Tim May > > > -- > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 00:56:03 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:56:03 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:58 PM -0500 7/23/01, Jim Choate wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >> Oh really? Try that experiment on your own car. > >Actually I've seen windows break (and broken my fair share) on cars >multiple times. Some from wrecks, some from gunshot (a .38 will bounce off >a windshield for example) some from other things. I even once had a D >based rocket fired directly into the windshield of a 68 Cougar, it was >much larger and going a hell of a lot faster than a fire exstinguisher. >It didn't go through the window. Didn't even break it. It's not size, it's Mass. What size was the extinguisher? It wasn't mentioned in any of the reports I saw, but I was picturing a rather large (25 pound PKP or CO2 sized extinguishers) one. If that is the case, it contains rather more energy, even when thrown, than a .38. >> Side windows shatter into a thousand pieces at the touch of a center punch. >> A fire extinguisher is decidedly overkill for the job. > >A center puch (which focuses the force into a small area) isn't a fire >extstinguisher. And windows are DESIGNED to break into a thousand little No, it isn't. It's a lot less force concentrated into a small area. >> In any event, the test--at least in the US--for the use of deadly force >> includes the concepts of reasonable fear of death OR GREAT BODILY INJURY. > >A fire extinguisher stuck in a window does none of the above. Really. Ever been hit by one of them? Given the mass of one (assuming it was one of the bigger ones), it most certainly could cause bodily injury--but that isn't really the point. And let's not even talk about what could have happened would the neck of a pressurized extinguisher break. You are in a crowd of hostile people. You are there because you were ordered up by your government, not because it's part of your normal job. You are young. You are more than a little scared (ever been in the middle of a protest that is running up against police force? It's not a peaceful situation). Suddenly some masked nitwit throws something big and heavy at you. You don't know what it is. You've been hearing shit all day like "Revolution is the only solution", you have no idea what these people are up to. You've read shit on the internet about these "black blocks" and "street actions", and your nervous. And all of the sudden the window shatters (maybe you get hit with glass, maybe you don't, doesn't matter). Thing is, *you* didn't initiate force. The masked man did. And he's not wearing some sort of goofy holloween mask, he's dressed like a freaking bank robber. It is very easy to understand why a shit scared 20 year old started shooting. It's hard to understand why supposedly rational people condemn him and wish to excuse the actions of some idiot hooligan. Free speech stops with *THREATENING* others, much less any sort of initiation of violence. Did the kid in the Mask deserve to die? Yes. Not so much for throwing the extinguisher, but for terminal stupidity. >> Believe it or not, being blinded by a swarm of glass shards is considered >> great bodily injury. > >I doubt seriously anyone would be blinded (and I'm blind in one eye from >being struck with a 2x4 so I can speak from 1st person, yes it's great >bodily injury. It's not justification for lethal force). It is at minimum because once someone in a protest starts something like that, it usually grows. Further more, getting glass in ones eyes *CAN* blind you, depending on the force with which it hits gets in, etc. Glass, expecially in the eyes, is very difficult for a doctor to find and extract, and it's *really* sharp, so if it gets to the back of the eye (where the nerves are), I can see it doing a great deal of damage. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 00:59:01 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:59:01 -0700 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: At 5:25 PM -0700 7/23/01, Gabriel Rocha wrote: >,----[ On Mon, Jul 23, at 07:44PM, John Young wrote: ]-------------- >| Adobe Systems Incorporated and the Electronic Frontier >| Foundation today jointly recommend the release of Russian >| programmer Dmitry Sklyarov from federal custody. >| >| Adobe is also withdrawing its support for the criminal >| complaint against Dmitry Sklyarov. >| >| "We strongly support the DMCA and the enforcement of >| copyright protection of digital content," said Colleen >| Pouliot, Senior Vice President and General Counsel for >| Adobe. "However, the prosecution of this individual in >| this particular case is not conducive to the best >| interests of any of the parties involved or the >| industry. ElcomSoft's Advanced eBook Processor >| software is no longer available in the United States, >| and from that perspective the DMCA worked. Adobe will >| continue to protect its copyright interests and those >| of its customers." >`----[ End Quote ]--------------------------- > >Sadly, this is but a small victory in a big war...The last paragraph >makes it even more so. But it is a happy thing nonetheless. Perhaps the >protests should/could continue? We are full steam ahead now, why not >keep going? --gabe Not really. It's a victory for Dimitri, because he gets to go home, but the DMCA is still in effect, and until there are rulings from the courts, there will still be people harassed and arrested. And further, weak crypto will still spread commercially because people will be afraid to poke at it, and if they do poke they won't talk. From wcs at idiom.com Tue Jul 24 01:05:55 2001 From: wcs at idiom.com (billstewart@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FW: Internet Piracy of Planet of the Apes (fwd) Message-ID: <200107240805.BAA44204@idiom.com> Sorry Measl, but by posting this information on a computer system, you are providing a computerized mechanism that simplifies the pirating process for Potential Infringers who might not have realized that they could use your "Download Planet Of The Apes From The Internet" technique to pirate that movie. This is in violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, so you're busted! Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. And your Unindicted Co-Conspirator "Fox Anti-Piracy' too... On 07/23/2001 - 18:36, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > Headers stripped to protect the source... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anti Piracy > Sent: 7/23/01 7:01 PM > Subject: Internet Piracy of Planet of the Apes > > July 23, 2001 > > Via E-Mail > > Re: Internet Piracy of Planet of the Apes > > Dear Colleagues: > > We at Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation ("Fox") are writing to ask > for your help and cooperation in the protection of our upcoming > highly-anticipated motion picture, Planet of the Apes. Fox is the > copyright owner and owner of exclusive distribution rights in all media, > including the Internet, to this motion picture, which is being released > in the United States and certain other countries on July 27, 2001. Some > pre-release screenings are already taking place. > > As you are likely aware, technological developments currently allow the > seriously detrimental and widespread infringement of intellectual > property via the unauthorized electronic dissemination of films over the > Internet. As widely reported in the media, up to 1 million illegal > copies of first-run movies are now available on the Internet. Fox, in > cooperation with the Motion Picture Association of America ("MPAA"), the > U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI, is working to combat piracy of > films on the Internet. We hope to be able to count on your assistance > as well. > > We anticipate a high volume of Internet piracy of Planet of the Apes. > Illegal film footage posted and/or available for download on the > Internet is usually sourced from video recordings made in movie theaters > and digitally transferred into electronic video formats. As Fox is > making every effort to aggressively battle Internet piracy, it is likely > that you will notice an increase in the volume of correspondence which > you receive from Fox and/or from the MPAA. Therefore, we would like to > take this opportunity to introduce you to the department responsible for > combating this issue at Fox which is authorized to act on behalf of > Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation, the copyright owner of Planet of > the Apes. Our contact information is: > > Fox Intellectual Property Department > (310) 369-4260 > antipiracy at fox.com X-Authenticated-User: idiom ~~~ Thanks; Bill Stewart From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 01:11:20 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:11:20 -0700 Subject: A proletariat experiment... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> Message-ID: >The bottle is a little smaller than a 15 lb bottle, of course the 15 lb's >refers to the weight of the bottle itself, it is closer to 50 lbs if it is >fully charged with carbon dioxide (which we have no way to know whether it >it was charged or what it was (once?) charged with). Well, memory may be playing tricks on me, but from what I remember from my fire fighting training in the Marine Corps, 15 pounds was the weight of the agent. A 50 pound bottle would really defeat the purpose of a portable fire extinguisher. There are many people who would have trouble holding the bottle in one had and pointing the nozzle with the other. Even a 35 pound (25 pounds agent, 10 pounds bottle) bottle is hard to manage at times. Depending on the construction of the container you could add another 5 to 10 pounds for the bottle etc. From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 22:11:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:11:57 -0400 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:00:30PM -0700 References: <20010724004319.A24508@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010724011157.A25089@cluebot.com> Here's a prediction: This case will never come close to generating the same amount of publicity, by at least two orders of magnitude. Folks on the Net have a bad habit of overemphasizing how important these cases are. This is not important to the people in DC who count. It has never been mentioned in the WSJ, the Washington Post, the Washington Times. Even the SJMN -- the hometown paper! -- has been running largely wire copy in its news coverage. I did a quick L/N search and the only network/cable TV coverage seems to have been a brief mention on CNN. Compare that to the kind of publicity the other two cases received, and there's no contest. Face it: The DMCA was designed to punish precisely what Elcomsoft was doing. There's no comparison between that and WHL or RJ. -Declan On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:00:30PM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > But the Feds won't back down as > > readily as Adobe, I wager. They > > don't have to worry about what > > programmers think, they don't > > have to worry about what Wall > > Street thinks (at least DOJ > > doesn't), they don't have to > > worry about slipping revenue > > in a soft economy and users > > turning to non-Adobe tools. > > In short, they have a different > > incentive structure... > > True, it may be different, but it is an incentive structure (or, more > accurately, a disincentive structure). For example, I don't thing the > Federal Baby Incinerators really want to create another Wen Ho Lee or > Richard Jewel fiasco. They already have enough egg on their face. > > > S a n d y From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 01:20:20 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:20:20 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:18 PM -0700 7/23/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Not-a-lawyer wrote: > >> No, the cops panicked... > >You really should become a lawyer or even a judge. You seem to already have >figured this one out by ESP or something. Wow, I'm fucking impressed with >your legal acumen. > >> And then there is the point that >> at no time is the police officer >> relieved of their sworn duty to >> protect the citizens, including >> the rioters. > >Is THAT what cops swear to? I'd like to see a citation on that piece of >bullshit. There is established case law in the US that says the police have >no specific duty to protect anyone. The kid who fired was not a Cop. He was (near as I understand) the rough equivalent of a National Guardsman. >> Self-defence is NOT a sufficient >> release (there is a term for this >> policy but it escapes me, I know >> where to find it though and I'll >> share it tomorrow). > >How convenient. Now don't you forget to "share" that with us tomorrow >Little Jimmie. > >> This is a perfect example of why >> the standard police psych >> requirement of 'likes to be in >> charge'... > >Did you pull that out of your ass or someone else's? > >> A police officers primary >> responsiblity is not to save >> their own life but to spend >> it to save another. No Jim, the primary responsibility of a Police Officer is to enforce the law, which really isn't relevant in this case, since the shooter apparently wasn't a cop. He was a soldier. And what is the primary responsibility of a soldier? Well, in Basic Training I was informed that my basic task was to seek out the enemy and destroy him. Which is why using Soldiers in peace keeping missions is a really, really boneheaded move. >This guy is a laugh riot. Where does he dig this stuff up? What a moron. Tim calls it "Choatien Prime". From andrew at pokerspot.com Tue Jul 24 02:29:28 2001 From: andrew at pokerspot.com (Andrew Woods) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:29:28 -0800 Subject: The amazing victory of "protestor" bullshit. Was: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <00ab01c1141c$b94a0400$d2972040@thinkpad574> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010723233902.00a70bf0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010724012023.00a402f0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> I agree with your statements regarding confrontation of heavily armed militia men. The email was basically a response to the general conception that he was throwing the extinguisher, a conception which is somewhat contrary to the photographic evidence. The question, given the evidence, is whether the protestors were pounding on the Italian paramilitary, or the paramilitary came to pound on peaceful protestors who stayed in the designated area, and then something went awry. I agree with both Choate (oops) and Petro, that cops should not be trigger happy, and sending soldiers into "peacekeeping" actions is counter to the majority of their training and habits. How can you possibly know the intentions of "most of the protestors"? I suspect (but do not know) the intent of the rowdier 10% of protestors was to disrupt the meeting of the Group of 8 through their actions, not simply to fuck up the city of Genoa. I will ignore your useless ad hominem attack, because you know even less about me than what happened to Carlo Giuliani. At 12:43 AM Tuesday 07/24/2001, Black Unicorn wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Andrew Woods" >To: "Jon Beets" >Cc: >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:14 AM >Subject: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > > > > There are pictures of > > about 10 fellow members of law enforcement a short distance away, including > > one with both hands on his forehead area. He appears anguished. > >Wow, the propaganda in the .ppt was effective on SOMEONE anyhow. Give that PR >guy a cigar, or a raise. > >Bottom line, never, ever, ever, mess with armed thugs- in whatever form. Not >only will you die or be otherwise grievously injured but you will get zero >sympathy from anyone with a brain. Do, however, expect to be featured in >excellent propaganda- your consolation prize for being under 30 and dead >(brain-dead or deaddead). It may even sway the occasional Mr. "Armchair >Anarchist" Woods. Who knows, perhaps so much that he sends an e-mail, if he >manages to finish it before the evening stock reports come on and distract >him, or before the phone rings with some 20something begging him to switch to >AT&T because he can get $0.07 a minute on his long distance right this second >and at the station he's gotten to in life how could he deny that to himself? > >In the end it's evolution in action. And good evolution at that. > >Using any old excuse to pound on some armed Italian para-military types seems >more a demonstration to me that these people have nothing real to do than >anything else. > >Mother: "Where ya going Flavio?" >Son: "Oh, out with Juliano and Francisco. We're going to go to the mall, >maybe catch a movie and then try and catch the last couple hours of the >protests and pound on some pigs while we can before the Gwhatever summit >leaves." >Francisco: "Yeah, don't forget to bring your mask cause I want to smash that >damn Starbucks that Sylvia works at too, the one on the corner!" >Mom: "That's nice dear. Be home for supper." > >Many tears shed, many pictures taken, much hand wringing, then, in a month, >life goes on. Deal or don't protest violently near armed thugs. "C'mon, >shoot me, shoot me, I dare you, pig. Shoot me. Whatcha gonna do? C'mon, you >can't do it can you? Can you?" *Bang* -Surprised Look- > >What a worthless exercise. What a dumbass. > >The only thing that really upsets me to any degree is that most of the >protestors have come into town with the express intent of causing trouble. >This means they are generally burning down someone else's neighborhood, not >their own. Ah well. Can't have everything. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 22:34:19 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:34:19 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444F0@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found PC INFORMATION2.xls.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: PC INFORMATION2", was sent from Deepak Maheshwari and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From wcs at idiom.com Tue Jul 24 01:36:17 2001 From: wcs at idiom.com (billstewart@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe Message-ID: <200107240836.BAA59689@idiom.com> On 07/23/2001 - 23:55, Tim May wrote: > On Monday, July 23, 2001, at 11:05 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote > > True. And I'll agree with you, this time -- I think the Feds > > will, in the end, drop this case, if the protests continue. > > And I'll bet the Feds drop it because their corporate backer, Adobe, has > abandoned them. > They don't like to be left twisting slowly in the wind. And the more > Adobe now tries to "spin" their role, the more the Feds are left twisting. The Feds may be in a maze of twisty little press releases, all different, but if they drop it, I'd bet it's not Adobe 'abandoning" them, but Adobe *asking* them to drop it, quietly in the back room, trying to stop bad PR against Adobe. It doesn't really bother the Feds - they can get credit for being responsive to urgent requests, they've gotten publicity for busting yet another hacker copyright thief, and they don't have to take any heat for backing down because they can spin it all as "Adobe's Dropping Charges". If they *do* continue, it's because they're getting pressure from other DMCA pushers - they'll need to do a bit more spin, but they can handle it, and most of the people who would object already didn't respect them. Won't bother their public image much. My guess - a couple more days in custody, and they kick him out of the US. X-Authenticated-User: idiom ~~~ Thanks; Bill Stewart From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 24 01:43:33 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:43:33 -0700 Subject: The amazing victory of "protestor" bullshit. Was: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010723233902.00a70bf0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c1141c$b94a0400$d2972040@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Woods" To: "Jon Beets" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:14 AM Subject: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > There are pictures of > about 10 fellow members of law enforcement a short distance away, including > one with both hands on his forehead area. He appears anguished. Wow, the propaganda in the .ppt was effective on SOMEONE anyhow. Give that PR guy a cigar, or a raise. Bottom line, never, ever, ever, mess with armed thugs- in whatever form. Not only will you die or be otherwise grievously injured but you will get zero sympathy from anyone with a brain. Do, however, expect to be featured in excellent propaganda- your consolation prize for being under 30 and dead (brain-dead or deaddead). It may even sway the occasional Mr. "Armchair Anarchist" Woods. Who knows, perhaps so much that he sends an e-mail, if he manages to finish it before the evening stock reports come on and distract him, or before the phone rings with some 20something begging him to switch to AT&T because he can get $0.07 a minute on his long distance right this second and at the station he's gotten to in life how could he deny that to himself? In the end it's evolution in action. And good evolution at that. Using any old excuse to pound on some armed Italian para-military types seems more a demonstration to me that these people have nothing real to do than anything else. Mother: "Where ya going Flavio?" Son: "Oh, out with Juliano and Francisco. We're going to go to the mall, maybe catch a movie and then try and catch the last couple hours of the protests and pound on some pigs while we can before the Gwhatever summit leaves." Francisco: "Yeah, don't forget to bring your mask cause I want to smash that damn Starbucks that Sylvia works at too, the one on the corner!" Mom: "That's nice dear. Be home for supper." Many tears shed, many pictures taken, much hand wringing, then, in a month, life goes on. Deal or don't protest violently near armed thugs. "C'mon, shoot me, shoot me, I dare you, pig. Shoot me. Whatcha gonna do? C'mon, you can't do it can you? Can you?" *Bang* -Surprised Look- What a worthless exercise. What a dumbass. The only thing that really upsets me to any degree is that most of the protestors have come into town with the express intent of causing trouble. This means they are generally burning down someone else's neighborhood, not their own. Ah well. Can't have everything. From decoy at iki.fi Mon Jul 23 15:43:37 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:43:37 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonp ost.com) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723140621.03c62d48@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: >I have a hard time imagining that a mirrored and faceted vehicle exterior >would provide enough absorption to enable this mechanism, otherwise the >laser's own mirrors would like destruct from the same exposure. Not necessarily, if the beam is focused on the target but its intensity is lower at the source. If I'm not mistaken, the 747 stuff does precisely this, even incorporating adaptive optics to combat atmospheric distortion. But on the whole you're probably still probably -- this does sound more like starwars than efficient anti-missile technology. But I also think the question Choate posed is a valid one: what happens when the target is *not* a ballistic missile, but people, equipment and vehicles on the ground, normal aircraft, or air-to-air missiles? One would think that the lower velocity differentials and expected distance-to-target make aiming much easier, and that effective counter-measures would be significantly more difficult to erect, considering that such conventional targets have properties very different from those of ballistic missiles (e.g. aircraft raise questions of aerodynamics and payload efficiency, wearable materials with albedos high enough are difficult to come up with, rotation and aerodynamic engineering cannot be used to dissipate the heat generated by a hit, people/cars/tanks/whathaveyou often need to be difficult to spot using aerial and satellite imaging, and so on). Such weapons capability could be *quite* useful, especially if the 747 can be effectively defended against anti-aircraft missiles, and the laser has a range and targeting capability on par with anti-ballistic missile applications. Hits on critical infrastructure, control over a nation's airspace, death-from-above FUD, that sort of thing. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 01:47:09 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:47:09 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:21 PM -0500 7/23/01, Jim Choate wrote: >While it's true the hole would have reduced the cushion impact of breaking >the glass it would not have eliminated it. > >NATO says it takes a transfer of approx. 85 Joules to kill. That's ridiculous. There are far too many variables involved in delivering a fatal wound for anyone to be able to reduce it to a single number. 85 Joules delivered where and how? That seems to come to about 62-63 foot pounds, about the muzzle energy of a .22 long rifle out of a 2 inch barrel (65 pounds) and more than the energy of a .32 short-colt (54 pounds). I would say that neither is adequate to reliably do the job, nor is either "sub-lethal". > >Figure out the velocity that takes for 15 lbs.. Compare to the velocity >possible in this incidence. Assuming that the protestor can achieve 20 FPS with a 15 pound weight, he's generating 93+ foot pounds at terminus. That's 13 miles per hour. I'd bet he could get closer to 25-30 miles an hour which would be over 300 foot pounds, which puts it around the energy delivered by a 9mm Parabellum. Check my math, I'm not good at it. Now, as I indicated above, just because there is adequate energy to do the job if well placed, doesn't mean there's enough to do the job if it falls on your foot. As well, it may be nominally inadequate, but still be lethal if delivered *just* right. The .22LR has killed a lot of people, and I'd bet the .32 short has done one or two. >In addition the fact that a previous protestor had put a board through the >window only goes to demonstrate the high level of emotional disruption >these officers were exposed to. Panicking is not justification for making >a wrong decision. Huh? When one is in a panic state, one by definition is not thinking clearly, otherwise one would not be panicking. > >Deadly force was not in any way justified. It most certainly was. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 01:53:42 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:53:42 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <00d101c113e1$b7e03ca0$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <20010723234429.B16719@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 9:26 PM -0700 7/23/01, Tim May wrote: >At 11:44 PM -0400 7/23/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>Another effect will be companies that wish to take advantage of the >>criminal sections of the DMCA will be more likely to cover their >>tracks when dealing with the Feds. The next Adobe won't be so quick to >>admit they contacted the FBI, for instance. >> > >Something's that interesting is the _speed_ and _strength_ of the reactions against companies when they cross some line. > >Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next spring to recruit. One would hope, but I suspect that between now and next spring three or four things will come up that will distract the students attention from Adobe--it helps them that the got things sorted out rather quickly, before it got really big--so there wasn't a *lot* of mainstream coverage over many days to burn it into the publics mind. >Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. As much as I agree with the sentiment, I doubt it. From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 23 22:57:57 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CIA oversight Message-ID: <200107240557.BAA10195@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Excerpt: The congressional ire was triggered by the CIA's refusal to participate in a committee hearing on computer security at the Agency. "Neither I nor any CIA representative will testify," wrote DCI George J. Tenet bluntly on July 17. He noted that House Intelligence Committee chairman Porter Goss "urged me not to testify." ---- SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy July 19, 2001 ** INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT QUESTIONED ** FBI MANAGEMENT CRITICIZED INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT QUESTIONED "Is the CIA's refusal to cooperate with Congressional inquiries a threat to effective oversight of the operations of the Federal Government?" That rather leading question was the topic of an unusual hearing before two subcommittees of the House Government Reform Committee yesterday. The hearing was unusual because the established structures of intelligence oversight are rarely criticized within Congress itself, and Republican committee chairmen rarely speak of the CIA with anger and indignation. But yesterday they did. "The CIA is assaulting Congress's constitutional responsibility to oversee executive branch activities," said subcommittee chairman Rep. Stephen Horn (R-Calif.) "The CIA believes it is above that basic principle in our Constitution. We do not agree." "Tell me why I shouldn't be outraged," said Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.), also a subcommittee chair. "When faced with persistent institutionalized [CIA] resistance to legitimate inquiries, we're compelled to reassert our authority," The congressional ire was triggered by the CIA's refusal to participate in a committee hearing on computer security at the Agency. "Neither I nor any CIA representative will testify," wrote DCI George J. Tenet bluntly on July 17. He noted that House Intelligence Committee chairman Porter Goss "urged me not to testify." See Tenet's letter here: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/07/tenet.html This prompted a fascinating discussion at yesterday's hearing of the respective oversight roles of the House Intelligence Committee and the House Government Reform Committee; the adequacy of the House Intelligence Committee's performance; the definition of intelligence "sources and methods" (which, by House rule, are the exclusive purview of the Intelligence Committee); the need to limit oversight of sensitive intelligence matters; the role of the General Accounting Office in intelligence oversight; and other fundamental issues. The questions were generally better than the answers. Some of the testimony concerning national security classification was incorrect or misleading. But the official anger at the CIA was palpable, and may yet have policy consequences for the Agency. The witness statements from the hearing are posted here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_hr/index.html#oversight "It is important to curtail growing GAO initiatives to investigate intelligence activities," according to a 1994 CIA memorandum on CIA policy toward the General Accounting Office that was released yesterday. The memo, authored by Stanley M. Moskowitz (who went on to fame if not fortune as CIA station chief in Tel Aviv), is posted here: http://www.fas.org/irp/gao/ciapolicy.html From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 01:58:04 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:58:04 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:47 PM -0500 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. > >While it is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I predict that the >"backlash" will be gone in a mere matter of weeks, if not days. Let's >face it: the people most likely to be Adobe *customers* are anything but >hungry. A fat customer is an apathetic customer... Let us also be honest and admit that the very people Adobe products target are also the least likely to understand this whole thing, and often even less likely to care--or if they do, they might even agree with Adobe. After all, they are (mostly) content producers (Illustrator, Photoshop etc) who have intellectual property interests themselves. Let's face it, many if not most of the Free Software types are going to use The Gimp over Photoshop. kIllustrator over Illustrator, and well, I don't know what they'll use in place of Pagemaker, but I'd be happy to find out. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 01:59:15 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:59:15 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <200107240456.f6O4uLE12826@artifact.psychedelic.net> References: <200107240456.f6O4uLE12826@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0700 7/23/01, Eric Cordian wrote: >Tim writes: > >> Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their >> own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be >> forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they >> eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers >> and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next >> spring to recruit. > >Adobe's pulling back on Dmitry doesn't change the fact that the company >lied in saying what was being distributed was "copyrighted Adobe >software." > >Despite the EFF's effusive praise of Adobe, I don't plan to use any Adobe >software in the future. Is there a workable freeware alternative to Distiller? From declan at well.com Mon Jul 23 23:05:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 02:05:05 -0400 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:23:10PM -0700 References: <20010724011157.A25089@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010724020505.A26225@cluebot.com> True. And I'll agree with you, this time -- I think the Feds will, in the end, drop this case, if the protests continue. -Declan On Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:23:10PM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Here's a prediction: This case will > > never come close to generating the > > same amount of publicity, by at > > least two orders of magnitude. > > > > Folks on the Net have a bad habit > > of overemphasizing how important > > these cases are. This is not > > important to the people in DC who > > count. > > I couldn't agree with you more, nevertheless my point still stands that > disincentives do exist and the Federal Baby Incinerators don't need yet > another incrementally damaging error on their rap sheet. > > > S a n d y From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jul 23 23:13:14 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 02:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Canadian cameras Message-ID: <200107240613.CAA11751@www0.aa.psiweb.com> # SCAN THIS NEWS # 7.20.2001 # # ------------------------ # # Security Cameras In Banks, # Private Business Ruled # Illegal In Canada # By Jen Ross # The Ottawa Citizen # 7-18-1 # # http://www.ottawacitizen.com/national/010717/5007180.html # http://www.rense.com/general12/sec.htm # # Big Brother may want to watch you, but you are legally entitled # to flick the off switch. # # That is the implication of the Personal Information Protection # and Electronic Documents Act (PIPED), which makes it illegal # for any private company to collect personal information on an # individual without their expressed consent or a warrant. # # "I could walk into a bank and ask them to turn off the camera # because it violates my privacy rights," said Peter Mantas, a # technology lawyer in Ottawa for law firm Heenan and Blaikie. # # "That would certainly put them in a huff ... (but) it would be # against the law for the bank manager to decline." # # People can also request that a security camera in a convenience # store be turned off while they are in the premises. # # Last month, in the first decision under the act, which came into # effect Jan. 1, federal Privacy Commissioner George Radwanski # told a Yellowknife security company the installation of street # surveillance cameras is unlawful. # # "People have the right to go about their business without feeling # that their actions are being systematically observed and # monitored," said Mr. Radwanski. # # The privacy commissioner has since launched an investigation # into the issue of video surveillance monitoring and will not # comment on particular cases until that investigation is completed. # # Mr. Mantas says the act has broader implications for workplace # surveillance of employees and for the use of video for consumer # profiling than have yet to be realized. Moreover, although the # act would allow a security video to be handed over to police # if it showed evidence of criminal activity, in theory, if you # can shut off the bank camera and then commit a robbery, there # would be no proof to hand over. # # "It means a lot because it's going to compromise investigations," # said Sgt. Loretta Ronchin, of the Greater Sudbury Police Service. # "I'm going to be really interested to see what happens." # # Sudbury became the first Canadian city to use closed-circuit # television monitoring of public streets in 1996. Sgt. Ronchin # says in the five years since their "lion's eye in the sky" was # introduced, there has been a 38-per-cent reduction in robberies # and assaults. They have five cameras that feed into the Sudbury # police station. # # London, Ont., Winnipeg and Toronto also opted for such systems # and various cities, including Calgary and Kelowna, are currently # looking to install cameras in public areas. # # But Mr. Mantas suspects the PIPED Act may not be applied to street # monitoring done directly by police because the act covers private # organizations. Government bodies are covered by their own laws, # which Mr. Mantas characterized as much more relaxed. # # "I think it's quite troubling," said Mr. Mantas, of the # public-private divide. "Are we to see a situation where people's # privacy is being enhanced # # in the private sector, but it is being less protected at the # level of the state?" # # Mr. Radwanski ruled that both live and recorded video pictures # qualify as "personal information" under the act. However, he # did acknowledge there may be instances where it is appropriate # for public places to be monitored for public safety reasons, # but that such surveillance must be limited to instances where # there is a demonstrated need. # # "I would think that the invasion of privacy is dwarfed by the # crime prevention that video provides," said Steve Kelly, spokesman # for the Canadian Alarm and Security Association. "If you don't # have anything to hide, why should you be upset with someone taking # your picture?" From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Jul 23 23:29:58 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 02:29:58 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444F4@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found futur.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. 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Best Wishes, Kevin P.S HERE ARE SOME SHORTCUT URLS PAY OUT RATES - ON TIME EVERY TIME! http://www.easymoneynet.com/payratesen.html SALES TOOLS & RESOURCES http://www.easymoneynet.com/utilitiesen.html From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 24 03:28:57 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 03:28:57 -0700 Subject: The amazing victory of "protestor" bullshit. Was: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010723233902.00a70bf0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010724012023.00a402f0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c1142b$7305e540$d2972040@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Woods" To: "Black Unicorn" ; "Jon Beets" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 2:29 AM Subject: Re: The amazing victory of "protestor" bullshit. Was: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > I agree with your statements regarding confrontation of heavily armed > militia men What militia men? Hard to agree with a statement I didn't make. > The email was basically a response to the general conception > that he was throwing the extinguisher, a conception which is somewhat > contrary to the photographic evidence. You mean your interpretation of same. I shouldn't really need to go into asking why the protestor in question had picked the thing up and continued to hold it if not to throw it. Certainly he wasn't cleaning the streets or looking for a trash bin. Whatever the case, you are no more in his mind than I am and simply asserting that he wasn't going to throw the object doesn't make it so. > The question, given the evidence, is whether the protestors were pounding > on the Italian paramilitary, or the paramilitary came to pound on peaceful > protestors who stayed in the designated area, and then something went awry. I think that is hardly the issue. Who cares who started it? All of that presupposes that the protestors were there in the first place, fully aware that armed authorities would be present and that some protestors were likely (certain?) to get violent. After that decision it starts to matter less and less who did what when. I think the issue is that a masked man, who shows up with clear intention to cause at least disruption if not "trouble," probably earned his fate by being present while his comrades, associates or mere spatial neighbors, pounded on armed police men. Wearing a mask and carrying a heavy object probably didn't help much. The _very best_ interpretation is that our departed "protestor" was terminally stupid. Literally. > I agree with both Choate (oops) and Petro, that cops should not be trigger > happy, and sending soldiers into "peacekeeping" actions is counter to the > majority of their training and habits. Not sure I understand what the one has to do with the other. Given that the cops endured their vehicle being smashed at, even with weapons drawn, for some time before discharging a weapon, I'm not sure I would rule them "trigger happy" either. Again, "trigger happy" is subject to your personal interpretation and therefore more than somewhat useless. Incidentally, who said anything about soldiers? For the uneducated, the Carabinieri are in fact military police. They are empowered and sworn as officers and complete police training. All Italian police do some riot control training. Comes in handy for the football matches and the world cup. Also for the uneducated, a "peacekeeping action" is generally undertaken by the United Nations in an international conflict. This is "riot control" or "crowd control" an entirely domestic affair. > How can you possibly know the intentions of "most of the protestors"? I never claimed to know their intentions excepting the obvious- to cause trouble. (This is, of course, what even the most innocent protestors are there to do). Anything above that is your invention. Here was my quote: > The only thing that really upsets me to any degree is that most of the > protestors have come into town with the express intent of causing trouble. > This means they are generally burning down someone else's neighborhood, not > their own. Ah well. Can't have everything. As the common high school graduate will see, though perhaps the colleges in the valley are less up to snuff, I pointed out that most of them were not from Genoa (a fact widely echoed in media), they were there to cause trouble (i.e. protest) and that they had the effect, therefore, of generally burning down someone else's neighborhood. You don't actually dispute any of these facts, I notice. Only impose your own set of facts and claim, erroneously, that I alleged these instead. > I suspect (but do not know) the intent of the rowdier 10% of protestors was > to disrupt the meeting of the Group of 8 through their actions, not simply > to fuck up the city of Genoa. "Some protestors are stupider than other protestors" in other words? Even if so, what does that have to do with any of my points? And what is your point exactly...? That the intent of the other 90% was to sip Lattes and take in the warm Genoa breezes? I don't think so. It was also "to disrupt the meeting of the Group of 8 through their actions." Or at the very least "to smash some pigs while we have the excuse to be lawless." Did it have the effect of "fuck[ing] up the city of Genoa" ? Look at the pictures and tell me what you think. Extra points if you can put a number on the cost of the cleanup to this point. (I'll announce the correct answer in 48 hours to the list). > I will ignore your useless ad hominem attack, because you know even less > about me than what happened to Carlo Giuliani. That's strike four for you. You're striking out quite a lot today. In fact, I know substantially more about you than I know about Giuliani. In any event, I apologize for branding you as a classless armchair anarchist when in fact you probably have the highest tastes in the area of politically inactive seating. 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Hotel savings calculated against hotels' pre-tax published rate. Air and rental car prices shown include all taxes and fees. 穢 Hotwire 2000 - 2001. All rights reserved. Hotwire, Hot-Fares(sm), Hot-Rates(sm) and the Hotwire logo are servicemarks of Hotwire. J.Crew簧 and Travelocity簧 are the trademarks and/or servicemarks of their respective owners. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at flex.com Tue Jul 24 09:18:30 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:18:30 -1000 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723194509.0318aef0@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010724061428.031b02b0@flex.com> At 01:50 AM 7/24/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > >> At 07:34 PM 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org (aka J.A. Terranson wrote: >> >> >To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com >> >cc: cypherpunks at lne.com >> >> Why do you send to two lists? > >Why do you care? Because when you send to the node I subscribe to and another node, I receive two copies of what you write. One from the node I subscribe to, another as that same piece of your spew makes the X-loop rounds. >Fuck off Reese. Certainly, after you justify your idiotic redundancy. Or is some valid need satisfied by sending to two different lists? What is it? Or should I simply filter your redundancy in the manner it deserves? Reese From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 03:45:05 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:45:05 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444F8@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found aat e1n 1.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: aat e1n 1", was sent from Economics Department and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From measl at mfn.org Tue Jul 24 04:49:28 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:49:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > J.A. Terranson wrote: > > > Do you *honestly* think they > > [Federal Baby Incinerators] give > > a shit? Are you really *that* > > naive? > > Yeah, guess so. I think the Feebs really don't like to get called on the > carpet. Their power and privilege are at stake. Of course they don't want > that threatened. Do you *honestly* think they want to see their > prerogatives reduced? I don't. No., however, I also don't believe this is a credible risk, and I suspect that they have the same view. > > S a n d y > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Tue Jul 24 04:50:41 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723194509.0318aef0@flex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > At 07:34 PM 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org (aka J.A. Terranson wrote: > > >To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > >cc: cypherpunks at lne.com > > Why do you send to two lists? Why do you care? Fuck off Reese. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 05:20:10 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:20:10 -0500 Subject: The Register - SSH hits the fan for Unix admins Message-ID: <3B5D67FA.5EB38850@ssz.com> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/20594.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 05:22:49 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:22:49 -0500 Subject: US lawmakers warned of "dark winter" in case of bioterrorist attack Message-ID: <3B5D6899.4A0CB7B7@ssz.com> http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010724/world/afp/US_lawmakers_warned_of__dark_winter__in_case_of_bioterrorist_attack.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Tue Jul 24 05:39:40 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:39:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > At the risk of going Choatien and stepping far beyond any > degrees I may have, the position that each and every LEO in this > country *should* (as opposed to does) decide for himself whether a law > fits his understanding of the constitution before enforcing it is not > only unworkable, but--if the LEO truly believes in the concepts of > "Rule of Law", wrong headed. Wrong headed or not, LEOs are manufactured out of human beings, and because of this, the spend a considerable amount of time in the Maggot Academy (tm) being taught the fine points of this very issue. In fact, a great majority of an LEO's "education" time is spent instructing them on how to determine [decide] what is and is not constitutionally protected {speech, action}. If they did not use this "ability", they would have to arrest *everyone*, and let the courts sort out the mess. > As a further disclaimer, let me say that I don't think "The > Legal Community" agrees with me. They're agreement or not isn't a > factor in my thinking. I already know (as Declan points out) that Reno > doesn't agree with me, but from her actions it's quite clear she > doesn't believe in the Rule Of Law--at least not in the sense I've > been using it. Actually, she is the perfect example: she interpreted the constitution her way. The "Rule of Law" has to be implemented at the individual [enforcer] level: therefore, each enforcer is putin the position of having to make and act on their [constitutional] opinions on a moment to moment basis. The fact that you [and in this rare case] I agree that Reno is a fascist sack of shit is completely irrelevent. > Now, in an ideal world the constitution would be clearly worded > and the semantics would be clearly understood by the people who live > under it. However, "It ain't like that". English is by no means an ISO > (or even ANSI) standard, and even reasonable people can disagree on the > complexity generated by the various articles and sections of the > constitution and the amendments. > > Look for example to the issue of the Second Amendment. The > clearest plain word interpretation of that amendment is that the > no one has the ability to infringe on the right of "the people" to > keep and bear arms. > > Fairly simple. > > Does that then mean that just about every firearm law in the > country is invalid on it's face? Yes. And if you are at all familiar with the history of 2A case law, you will understand why the SCOTUS has been so meticulous in avoiding a ruling. Of course, our friends [hrmmm... Never thought I'd say THAT] in Texas may well put an end to the charade soon. > Well, no. See, the same constitution also grants Congress the > power to regulate interstate trade, so as long as they don't "infringe" > on the right, they have a wide latitude to set standards etc. Or do they? > What are the limits of that particular clause? Virtually the entire 2A ablating federal infrastructure is based on a truly scary "finding" that *any* firearm is the product of Intertate Commerce, regardless if it has been out of the state in which it was manufactured. In fact, IIRC, there is an early 1970's case where a felon was convicted under federal laws, even though the weapon he posessed was self-manufactured using components found completely within the state in which the manufacture took place. The ruling basically stated that since the manufacture of the weapon utilized federal notes, there was an interstate commerce nexus. Go look: there are *thousands* of these. > Further more, what is *constitutionally* an infringement? Als at the risk of going Choation, what part of "Shall not be infringed" don't you understand? > Is > it acceptable for Congress to set (legitimate) product reliability > standards? (e.g. to require a pistol must be capable of firing > rounds between failures etc.) No. This is a free market issue. > or certain safety guidelines (e.g. that > every handgun be fitted with a safety device of some sort that keeps it > from firing unless the trigger has been pulled). Again, no. The market will not support a gun manufacturer that does not produce reliable weapons. > Let's get even finer. > > Do you *really* want your local beat cop to be making decisions > on what does and doesn't fall into "protected speech" (or even whether > there is a distinction there to be made?) See above: it is by definition unavoidable. > Or how about certain laws > of a very questionable nature that make it a crime for groups larger > than to gather without a permit. On it's face these are > unconstitutional, but if the vast majority of police in a district > *don't* enforce these laws, but one or two do (under the belief that > the constitution only applies restrictions to the state and federal > government, not the city governments (there are people who believe this, > and absent the explicit incorporation by the 14th (which even by the > appellate courts is applied non-uniformly so far) they may have a > legitimate argument) then you have a case where you are just hanging out > with some 5 or 10 of your closest buddies as you do every day, and the > normal beat-cop, who doesn't enforce this law because it's > unconstitutional doesn't say anything, but his fill-in on a sick day > rousts you all and takes you to jail. I don't know what world *you* live in, but you have just described the world the *rest* of us live in. > It's happened in Chicago, and worse (see below). > > There are at least 3 states a law can be in vis-a-vis > constitutionality: > > (1) Adjudged unconstitutional. > (2) Adjudged constitutional. > (3) Not adjudged relative to it's constitutionality. Irrelevent. We are not discussing abstract legal theory, we are discussing factual implementation. > >As for refusing to enforce laws which are personally believed to be > >unconstitutional, this goes on all the time, both officially [Sherriff > >Blah refuses to enforce law X - publicly], and unofficially Officer Y > >refuses to enforce law X - privately]. > > And for the reasons I've outlined in this post, and in my > previous post, I believe both of these cases the individuals are > acting improperly. In the first, the Sherriff does his > constituency a disservice. If he believes the law unconstitutional he > should use his office to arrange a challenge of that law, otherwise he > only "protects" those under his jurisdiction while he's in office (of > course, this could simply be a ploy to retain office as in every > county I've lived in the Sheriff was elected.). Nevertheless, *this* is how the world works. > As to the individual police officer, they have to do as their > conscience and beliefs guide them. I find more often than not LEOs > tend to fall on the side of enforcing laws of questionable > constitutionality and tend to ignore laws they find "silly" or > "annoying" rather than question their constitutionality. Agreed. > >How many weeks before middle schools reopen, anyway? > > You and Reese good friends? Touche' -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 05:26:53 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:26:53 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444FA@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Dear Fred.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Dear Fred", was sent from Kathy Vignolo and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 06:33:29 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:33:29 -0500 Subject: Internet book publishing ruling breaks new ground Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20574.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 06:36:25 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:36:25 -0500 Subject: House approves proposed post to investigate FBI Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/fbi.oversight/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 08:47:19 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:47:19 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <3B5D5D24.D6167FD3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ken Brown wrote: > Sandy Sandfort wrote: > [...] > > No, we're talking 'self-defense', this is the US, not the UK. > > Actually Sandy, it was Italy. Right, but Jimbo lives in Texas where the word is spelled "defense" not "defence" as it is in England. Just teasing the (ignorant) monkey. > Whay are you arguing with himn? > We saw long ago that, for reasons > he may well understand but most > of us don't, Jim will never admit > that there may be a factual mistake > in anything he writes... It is educational (and it amuses me) to draw him out into parading his ignorance and intransigence for all to see. Of course, he won't admit he is wrong directly, but when his stupid notions are repeatedly challenged, he is forced to dig himself in deeper and deeper. This makes it crystal clear to all observers that his arguments have no merit. If he is unchallenged, a few folks might actually think he has something worthwhile to say. So think of it as a public service. Now the real question is, does Jimbo realize he's making an ass out of himself, or does he actually think he's scoring points? If the first alternative is true, it brands him as a detestable moral and intellectual coward. If the second is true, he's far stupider than I would have thought. Of course the two options are not mutually exclusive... The really sad thing about Jimbo is that he stands absolutely alone. Each time I, or someone else, gives him a real good ass kicking, taunt him, tease and humiliate him, NO ONE ever jumps to his defense (or defence, for that matter). I've been told not to feed the trolls, once or twice someone has agreed with a factual part of one of his statements and folks like you have said--in effect--why bother, but no one has ever said anything like, "play nice" or "cut the guy some slack, he's human too" or anything remotely SYMPATHETIC to Jim Choate as a human being. You have to be a pretty wretched human being to evoke that little sympathy However, as I think you realize, that would all change overnight if Jimbo were to show some humility or moral/intellectual honesty. If that were to happen, I would be the first to cut him some slack. As it is, though, I have zero respect or sympathy for him and I will continue to cut him off at the knees without remorse. > Ken Brown (who doesn't know why > he is joining the argument, when > he has work to do) What WERE you thinking? :-D S a n d y From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 09:04:23 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:04:23 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:58 AM -0700 7/24/01, Petro wrote: >At 11:47 PM -0500 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >>On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >> >>> Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. >> >>While it is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I predict that the >>"backlash" will be gone in a mere matter of weeks, if not days. Let's >>face it: the people most likely to be Adobe *customers* are anything but >>hungry. A fat customer is an apathetic customer... > > Let us also be honest and admit that the very people Adobe products >target are also the least likely to understand this whole thing, and often >even less likely to care--or if they do, they might even agree with Adobe. Let me be clear about something: I wasn't predicting a significant "boycott" against Adobe products. Most corporate purchasers pick their tools based on what they need, not based on ideology. If they need InDesign or Photoshop, that's what they'll buy. My comments were about Adobe's _recruiting_ efforts. I expect lingering effects of this episode to affect their ability to recruit. I stand by that prediction. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 09:19:53 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:19:53 -0700 Subject: Third rockhead from the sun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:20 AM -0700 7/24/01, Petro wrote: > > >>This guy is a laugh riot. Where does he dig this stuff up? What a moron. > > Tim calls it "Choatien Prime". Actually, "Choate Prime," the planet which exists askew of our own reality, and which Jim Choate channels. On Choate Prime, the laws of physics are as Jim Choate channels them to us, the nature of prime numbers is as he describes, law is different from our reality, and their history diverged from ours some centuries ago. (The point of divergence might have been longer ago, but I haven't heard Choate expound on Roman history, so I don't know for sure.) Perhaps Choate Prime only exists in Jim Choate's head...is a puzzlement. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From bob at black.org Tue Jul 24 09:55:10 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:55:10 -0700 Subject: RF toll transponders are debit cards (good for food fraud) Message-ID: <3B5DA86E.201FA95F@black.org> Thieves using stolen windshield toll transponders have charged about $4,000 worth of food at McDonald's, where the devices have been accepted as debit cards since April 2000, according to a Transportation Corridor Agencies spokeswoman. The transponders, which operate with a radio signal that credits tolls--and now cheeseburgers--to motorists' accounts, allows users to skip toll plazas. The agency receives 20 cents each time a McDonald's purchase is made with a FasTrak. Spokeswoman Clare Climaco said people should treat a transponder like a credit or debit card. "They should take it out of their windshield and put it in a glove compartment or purse when they're not using it," she said. http://latimes.com/news/local/state/la-000060199jul23.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dstate From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 10:02:29 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:02:29 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <20010724124758.A22615@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:47:19AM -0700, > Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > It is educational (and it amuses me) > > to draw him out into parading his > > ignorance and intransigence for all > > to see. Of course, he won't admit he is > > Educational? Only in the study > of aberrant thinking. I disagree. I think by ignore Jimbo's intellectual dishonesty and poor reasoning skills, to some extents gives the appearance of some validity. Only by calling him on his sloppy thinking can we remove the petina of plausibility. > I confess I've baited Choate more > than I care to remember, but I'm > not sure going out of your way to > taunt him is particularly > educational or worthwhile. Okay. We disagree on this subject. I can live with that. :-D S a n d y From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 07:12:02 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:12:02 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444FC@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found AFCS_seattle2001.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: AFCS_seattle2001", was sent from carl & danielle and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Tue Jul 24 08:14:12 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:14:12 -0500 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010723233902.00a70bf0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> Message-ID: <003b01c11453$4ba41490$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Yes I saw that pic too... Again we can't assume anything other than what we see in the pics.... But even below head level it can be thrown fairly hard like a medicine ball.... Or it could have been lifted over his head after the picture was taken... Or someone could even argue they thought it might be rigged explode... Etc... I still stand by my belief that the Police felt threatened and were justified..... Again basing all this on the little info we all have.... Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Woods" To: "Jon Beets" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 3:14 AM Subject: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > If you look at the Reuters image of Carlo holding the fire extinguisher, > he's holding it below head-level. In my opinion, that leaves three options: > Carlo was going to chuck the extinguisher underhand (and sideways to the > vehicle, so it would've bounced off) at a low velocity, or Carlo was > holding the fire extinguisher out in front of him as DEFENSE, or he was > merely holding a fire extinguisher. It's not clear how much time elapsed > between the picture of Carlo alive, and the next image, which is him lying > on the ground with his brains all over the ground. However, the gun is can > be seen and it's pointed at his head, so I assume it wasn't very long. > There's an image of Carlo under the land rover, with the cop who shot him > covering or wiping his face. Neither man in the jeep were wearing gas masks > with face shields, but every other carabinieri member seen in the series is > wearing them. > The other thing that may not have been mentioned is that there were > Carabinieri within 30 feet of the land rover, and that Carlo was in the > Green Zone, supposedly the safe area for protests. There are pictures of > about 10 fellow members of law enforcement a short distance away, including > one with both hands on his forehead area. He appears anguished. > There's an image of Carlo under the land rover, with the cop who shot him > covering or wiping his face. > there's a PDF on indymedia.org with the pictures i'm talking about at > http://italia.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/carlo-photofile.pdf. Most > of this analysis is paraphrased from the pdf, but it seems reasonable. > this may be a repeat of the powerpoint presentation post, but it's more > cross-platform. > > At 05:35 PM Monday 07/23/2001, you wrote: > >Uhhh yes it will go through the safety glass.. Look at the pics.. One person > >had already put piece of lumber through it.. That was about a 15lb > >extinguisher... From what I can tell from the photos the protester DID > >intend harm to the police. Of course none of us were there so its really > >hard to know the truth.. > > > >Jon Beets > >Pacer Communications > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jim Choate" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:18 PM > >Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > > > > > > > > > > Does throwing a fire extenguisher at a auto window constitution probable > > > cause for lethal force in self-defence? > > > > > > No. Because the fire extenguisher won't go through the safety glass. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > > > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > > > > > B.A. Behrend > > > > > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > > > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > > > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > > > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --------------------- > Andrew Woods > Pokerspot.com Customer Support From declan at well.com Tue Jul 24 07:20:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:20:36 -0400 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:59:01AM -0700 References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> Message-ID: <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> Really? Dmitri gets to go home? Tell that to the USAtty's office, which indicated to me yesterday they weren't inclined to drop charges. While you're at it, learn a little about criminal law. -Declan On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:59:01AM -0700, Petro wrote: > > Not really. It's a victory for Dimitri, because he gets to go > home, but the DMCA is still in effect, and until there are rulings > from the courts, there will still be people harassed and arrested. From neil.rogers at mscs.co.uk Tue Jul 24 02:21:56 2001 From: neil.rogers at mscs.co.uk (Bill Thomspon) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:21:56 +0100 Subject: albion Message-ID: <200107241210.f6OCAB119553@rigel.cyberpass.net> Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks "This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way and notify the sender immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of MSCS (NI) Ltd unless specifically stated". From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Tue Jul 24 08:29:21 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:29:21 -0500 Subject: Feds must fess up about Carnivore Message-ID: <00bd01c11455$69a5e520$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Good article.... http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-6649680.html?tag=mn_hd Jon Beets Pacer Communications -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 07:39:30 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:39:30 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF444FE@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found AFCS_seattle2001.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: AFCS_seattle2001", was sent from carl & danielle and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From gbroiles at speakeasy.org Tue Jul 24 10:43:23 2001 From: gbroiles at speakeasy.org (gbroiles at speakeasy.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:43:23 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Several years ago, there was discussion on the list about creating headless or throwaway remailers (likely hidden in some institution where they could get power and net access for a long time until they were discovered)- I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about that, because I thought that the necessary Ethernet (or other network) connection which would be made between the hidden machine and the host network would make it easy enough to detect and disable that it wasn't a productive direction for exploration. (There are also any number of legal issues related to trespass, unauthorized network use, etc., which may apply.) However, that limitation may be withering away, with the spread of 802.11b (or similar) wireless networks - the attached email describes a Seattle-area system apparently set up by Microsoft in a shopping mall providing free network access to people within the reach of its radio units. An old laptop, a solar panel, some auxiliary batteries, and an 802.11 network card might be able to stay online for a long, long time in that sort of environment. This also sounds like a good way to get casual, anonymous network access to upload or download email - once upon a time, bad people who wanted to send forbidden emails or browse hidden sites did that by going to public terminals in libraries or web cafes or [...] - now perhaps they'll do that at Starbucks or the mall, either for free or having paid cash for short-term access via 802.11b wireless. And, if you're the sort that's worried about permission, etc., the nice thing is that these networks are explicitly intended for the use of guests on the premises, so at least the first level of concerns about trespass or unauthorized use are addressed. These days, remailers aren't as exciting as they once were - perhaps the next important tools are going to be Freenet or Mojo Nation nodes - but the combination of wireless access plus anonymous access provides an interesting opportunity for network participants which are physically within a jurisdiction yet unavailable for punishment. >To: seasigi-list at eskimo.com >Cc: decentralization at yahoogroups.com >From: Todd Boyle >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:24:14 +0200 >Subject: [decentralization] Free wireless access at Crossroads > >Somehow I view this with the same sense of foreboding as the >spread of two different species of africanized honeybees. > >In business school we were taught that the incumbent in a >market generally wants to wait for upstarts to expend their >capital to deploy in specific places then, go to those >places and compete. Drawing on billions of reserves >from product X, the larger vendor can give away product Y >for free. > >Todd > > > >From: "Michael Codanti" >To: , >Subject: Crossroads Mall in Bellevue >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:36:13 -0700 >Organization: CIVIS Consulting > >I just thought I would drop a note to the lists about the Crossroads mall in >Bellevue, WA. This is the one that Micro$oft has installed their test >MSChoice network. We were on our way back from a trip to Canada and stopped >in at the mall. Within seconds we were on the ChoiceNet network and >according to my tests we had a full T1 to ourselves. (1132k down/1250k up) >They have 4 Cisco APs and coverage appeard to be very good. Their site says >you have to use the PANS client on Windows 2000, but I was using Windows XP >RC1 and it ever even asked me to authentidicate... The most interesting >thing is that the StarBucks in the mall has their MobileStar AP up, but >signal strength sucked. (I was fairly close to StarBucks) And considering >that ChoiceNet is free, and MobileStar wants $12/hour I don't know how much >business they will get... > > Michael From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Tue Jul 24 08:58:58 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:58:58 -0500 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c11459$8c74bc30$03d36b3f@pacer.com> This reminds me of complaints filed in the Air Force. If anyone files a complaint either by the one that was wronged or somone who saw a person being wronged the gears are then in motion... These complaints can range from sexual harrassment to sexual or racial discrimination, etc.. Essentially anything that is not of a criminal act. All criminal; acts are handled by the security police and AFOSI (Air Force Office of Special Investiagtions). Even if the complaintee wants to withdraw the complaint its too late and the investigation must go forward. The basis for this is 1) To stop people from using it as a threatening tool to get what they want since most likely the investigation will show the truth if they made a false statement 2) To ensure the complaintee hasn't been pressured to drop the complaint by their superiors or peers. The investigation is always performed by someone who does not have ties to the squadron of the people he is investigating. This is done to try to take out any partiallity.. Criminal acts are investigated the same way except the investigator is a law enforcement official. I like the idea of continuing the investigation no matter what.. While I think the DMCA sucks I think that the only way the feds can stay professional and look impartial in this incident is to continue to investigate, otherwise it comes down to pick and choose what they will enforce and when.. Jon Beets Pacer Communications ----- Original Message ----- From: "Declan McCullagh" To: "Petro" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release > Really? Dmitri gets to go home? Tell that to the USAtty's office, > which indicated to me yesterday they weren't inclined to drop charges. > While you're at it, learn a little about criminal law. > > -Declan > > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:59:01AM -0700, Petro wrote: > > > > Not really. It's a victory for Dimitri, because he gets to go > > home, but the DMCA is still in effect, and until there are rulings > > from the courts, there will still be people harassed and arrested. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Jul 24 07:58:59 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:58:59 -0400 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 10:20:36AM -0400 References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010724105858.A11911@ils.unc.edu> Copyright law is a weird thing. While the copyright holder needs to bring a case for normal infringement, the provisions of section 1201 for "trafficking" bump copyright violation to a federal crime. In other words, the feds prosecute, not Adobe. More details on this would be welcome -- it's hard to understand how the laws work when we have relatively few test cases (even for regular copyright, let alone digital). -- Greg On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 10:20:36AM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Really? Dmitri gets to go home? Tell that to the USAtty's office, > which indicated to me yesterday they weren't inclined to drop charges. > While you're at it, learn a little about criminal law. > > -Declan > > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:59:01AM -0700, Petro wrote: > > > > Not really. It's a victory for Dimitri, because he gets to go > > home, but the DMCA is still in effect, and until there are rulings > > from the courts, there will still be people harassed and arrested. From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 24 11:03:59 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > >While it is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I predict that the >"backlash" will be gone in a mere matter of weeks, if not days. Let's >face it: the people most likely to be Adobe *customers* are anything but >hungry. A fat customer is an apathetic customer... It would take a *lot* to alienate Adobe's customers on a substantial enough basis to affect Adobe. Most of them probably haven't even heard about this debacle and if they did, wouldn't care. But Adobe has one other check on its behavior -- it lives in the valley and *HAS TO* attract really bright geeks to work there. Really bright geeks have probably heard about this and are angry about it. This will hurt them in recruiting, and (unconfirmed rumor) maybe it has already cost them somebody they can't replace. Truly brilliant coders are different from normal people. They have something like a THOUSAND times the productivity of the merely competent professional and command only about three times the salary (Well, at least until they start their own companies, which about half of them eventually do). There is no other industry where three orders of magnitude separate the pros from the truly brilliant. Needless to say, brilliant coders can work wherever they damn well want, and I hear (unconfirmed) that one such individual has jumped ship from Adobe (or threatened to) over this. I'm still trying to confirm it, and if so, find out exactly who. Adobe's fine on the consumption side -- it's customers, as you say, are fat and happy. But on the production side, Adobe can't take very many really serious hits. At best, it only ever had about five truly brilliant coders at any one time, and in this industry there is just no making up for losing one. If it turns out to be true, their productivity is damaged for years to come. Bear From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 24 11:07:59 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IP: The Postal Service Has Its Eye on You (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: >Does anyone have a link to this "B" form, or more exact data on it's >contents? It seems a little pointless to fill out a form saying that >"Unknown person refused to ID for a transaction of $3000.00. This >"suspect" was 5'8" and 125#, brn hair, brn eyes and wearing jeans and a >tee-shirt" It probably notes time of day and gets submitted along with videotape from the cameras, so the lions can run it through their mugbooks. Bear From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 11:12:40 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:12:40 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0700 7/24/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > >> >>While it is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I predict that the >>"backlash" will be gone in a mere matter of weeks, if not days. Let's >>face it: the people most likely to be Adobe *customers* are anything but >>hungry. A fat customer is an apathetic customer... > >It would take a *lot* to alienate Adobe's customers on a substantial >enough basis to affect Adobe. Most of them probably haven't even >heard about this debacle and if they did, wouldn't care. > >But Adobe has one other check on its behavior -- it lives in the >valley and *HAS TO* attract really bright geeks to work there. > >Really bright geeks have probably heard about this and are angry >about it. This will hurt them in recruiting, and (unconfirmed >rumor) maybe it has already cost them somebody they can't replace. This, by the way, was exactly what I said in my articles: that Adobe's ability to _recruit_ will be affected by this P.R. black eye. Someone mutated the point into a claim that Adobe's product sales would be affected, which is doubtful. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Jul 24 11:16:21 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:16:21 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe Message-ID: <3B5DBB75.23A82CAB@lsil.com> >At 1:58 AM -0700 7/24/01, Petro wrote: >>At 11:47 PM -0500 7/23/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >>>On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >>> >>>> Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. >>> >>>While it is a consummation devoutly to be wished, I predict that the >>>"backlash" will be gone in a mere matter of weeks, if not days. Let's >>>face it: the people most likely to be Adobe *customers* are anything but >>>hungry. A fat customer is an apathetic customer... >> >> Let us also be honest and admit that the very people Adobe products >>target are also the least likely to understand this whole thing, and often >>even less likely to care--or if they do, they might even agree with Adobe. > >Let me be clear about something: I wasn't predicting a significant >"boycott" against Adobe products. Most corporate purchasers pick >their tools based on what they need, not based on ideology. If they >need InDesign or Photoshop, that's what they'll buy. > >My comments were about Adobe's _recruiting_ efforts. I expect >lingering effects of this episode to affect their ability to recruit. > >I stand by that prediction. > >--Tim May > A very sound prediction about the behavior of a subset of potential employees. I would bet that 40-50% of SW people haven't even heard of the DMCA and Sklyarov or don't see it as a problem. While I'd like to think Adobe's behavior will limit their access to people who fall on the high side of the curve, I've met plenty of bright people who just don't care about certain issues. Another counter-factor for your prediction would be continued economic decline and a scarcity of jobs which while not a certainty is certainly a possibility. The all-consuming Bay Area monkey-on-the-back mortgage might tend to eclipse the politics for all but the most stallwart technology freedom fighter. Mortgage low, politics intact, Mike PS - I can't fault Adobe for wanting to protect their business but the DMCA has got to go. It's the tech version of the war on drugs ain't it? An excuse to storm and destroy without even trespass to justify it. Pure evil. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 09:18:47 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:18:47 -0500 Subject: Travesty: Dmitry Skylarov's Arrest Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/features/01/07/23/2315228.shtml James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 11:29:36 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:29:36 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <3B5DBB75.23A82CAB@lsil.com> References: <3B5DBB75.23A82CAB@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 11:16 AM -0700 7/24/01, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >A very sound prediction about the behavior of a subset of potential >employees. I would bet that 40-50% of SW people haven't even heard of >the DMCA and Sklyarov or don't see it as a problem. > >While I'd like to think Adobe's behavior will limit their access to >people who fall on the high side of the curve, I've met plenty of bright >people who just don't care about certain issues. > >Another counter-factor for your prediction would be continued economic >decline and a scarcity of jobs which while not a certainty is certainly >a possibility. The all-consuming Bay Area monkey-on-the-back mortgage >might tend to eclipse the politics for all but the most stallwart >technology freedom fighter. I know of people who refuse to buy Intel-based machines "on principle." Some are Sun users, some are Mac users, some think they are bypassing Intel by using AMD Athlons. And the anti-Microsoft efforts are legendary. Alternative OSes, Star Office, etc. If some people will go to these lengths to avoid MS products, imagine the programmers they are missing out on. (I understand that there are still tens of thousands who work for MS. The interesting regime is at the margins, in the five sigmas zone.) Likewise, I know of even some Cypherpunks who have left their employers for ideological reasons. And if some have _left_ jobs, the effects are likely greater on the _recruiting_ side (where the costs of a decision are much less). No wonder Adobe is back-pedalling so furiously. (This, and fears that Adobe salesmen and engineers may be arrested for violating _Russian_ laws, e.g., the European laws (I have read about) that make it a crime to sell a software product which cannot be backed-up. And if not this law, they may find something else to arrest and Adobe person for. Trading cards. Adobe escalated the war. Now Adobe realizes what can of worms they have opened.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:04 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:04 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <243601c11423$3837dac0$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:09 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:09 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <243c01c11423$3b356350$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:14 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:14 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <244201c11423$3e32ebe0$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:24 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:24 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <244e01c11423$442e2410$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:34 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:34 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <245a01c11423$4a293530$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:39 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:39 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <246001c11423$4d26bdc0$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at patnet.it Tue Jul 24 02:30:44 2001 From: info at patnet.it (info at patnet.it) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:30:44 +0200 Subject: Newsletter di Patnet Message-ID: <246601c11423$50244650$800a0a0a@pcitto> IL PORTALE DELLA PROPRIETA' INTELLETTUALE Marted穫 24 Luglio 2001 Anno 1簞, release 1.2 _____ News Q&A Osservatorio Studio 3 Questions 2 簞 Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool 簞 Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit su CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste 簞 Le altre news... 簞 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio 簞 Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU 簞 Notizie dalla stampa scelte per voi 簞 Studio Barzan簷 & Zanardo di Roma, Milano e Torino Vedi la vetrina dello studio su Patnet 簞 Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, Presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) Il cognome come un marchio: latino 癡 cool dalla Redazione di Patnet Abbiamo pi羅 volte scritto su queste pagine di come il marchio stia assumendo sempre maggiore importanza anche per quelle realt che non sono tradizionalmente legate al commercio in senso proprio [si veda ad esempio il redazionale: Roma promuove il marchio della citt ]. La forza espansiva del marchio pare inarrestabile: ora anche le persone vogliono un loro marchio da difendere e promuovere! Ci venga perdonata la metafora, ma il nome di una persona (fisica) null'altro 癡 se non il suo marchio. Qualcosa che assume o perde valore con la notoriet positiva o negativa di chi lo porta. E' assai frequente infatti che i VIP registrino a dominio il loro nome, cos穫 come le aziende mettono a dominio i loro marchi pi羅 importanti: si pensi ad esempio ai siti www.alessiamerz.it (per citare anche un caso di cybersquatting) da una parte e www.barilla.it dall'altra... FULL STORY Subscribe Trovi interessanti queste informazioni? Allora iscriviti o iscrivi un amico alla NewsLetter di Patnet! Greenberg come Tasini: la riproducibilit di CDROM di foto pubblicate su riviste dalla Redazione di Patnet Le nuove tecnologie mettono a disposizione dei fruitori di contenuti innovatvi e comodissimi strumenti. E' innegabile che la ricerca ipertestuale all'interno delle enciclopedie su CDROM abbia creato un nuovo e rapidissimo modo di reperire le informazioni che, specie nel caso di ricerche a basso livello di approfondimento, ha soppiantato la scomoda e voluminosa (癡 proprio il caso di usare questo termine!) enciclopedia cartacea. La rapida diffusione dei PC multimediali ha causato la corsa delle case editrici tradizionali a ripubblicare nel nuovo formato contenuti cartacei, spesso ripresi senza alcuna modifica e con il solo valore aggiunto della comodit di consultazione e di ricerca. Il fenomeno ha riguardato un po' tutti i settori dell'editoria: ricordo come intorno alla met degli anni '90 guardavo con stupore quei CDROM contenenti intere annate de "Il corriere della sera" o di "Quattroruote" . Oggi tuttavia la rinnovata consapevolezza dei diritti d'autore sta mettendo in dubbio la liceit di tali opere di ripubblicazione. Gi in passato Patnet si 癡 occupato del problema [si vedano in particolare i redazionali La pubblicazione in forma digitale di contenuti tradizionali: quali prospettive? e Pubblicazione online di articoli di giornale: la Corte Suprema d ragione agli autori ] che, non avendo una chiara regolamentazione normativa, viene lentamente ma progressivamente affrontato per via giurisprudenziale dai giudici... FULL STORY La stampa 簞 Brevetti - Biotech da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Napster da L'Espresso Online del 23/07/01 簞 Copyright da The Industry Standard del 23/06/01 簞 Marchio da Il Sole 24 ore del 23/07/01 簞 Brevetti da Il Gazzettino Online del 23/07/01 I segni distintivi di Internet: i nomi di dominio da Servizi di Patnet Ciascun operatore del commercio elettronico realizza la propria attivit attraverso un sito, il cui indirizzo numerico 癡 strutturato in modo molto simile ad un comune indirizzo postale (invertendone l'ordine). Come quest' ultimo, da sinistra verso destra, contiene prima le informazioni pi羅 dettagliate (via e numero civico) e poi quelle pi羅 generali (la citt e lo Stato); cos穫 gli indirizzi di internet constano di quattro serie numeriche che, a partire da sinistra, indicano prima le informazioni pi羅 generali e poi quelle pi羅 dettagliate: la rete, la sottorete, i nodi ed il singolo host. L'assegnazione degli indirizzi di rete viene curata dal NIS (Network Information Service), un organismo internazionale che delega a sua volta la gestione degli indirizzi ad enti nazionali dei vari Paesi. In Italia, l'ente nazionale cos穫 delegato 癡 il GARR-NIS, un servizio dell'ente GARR con sede presso il CNUCE del CNR di PISA. FULL ANSWER Convey Il portale Patnet 癡 un'iniziativa di: Convey S.r.l. Sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) di Internet - Creazione del nome di dominio Internet di primo livello .EU da Osservatorio di Patnet 1. INTRODUZIONE La Commissione riceve da tempo richieste e iniziative a favore della creazione di un nome di dominio Internet di primo livello europeo. Tale indicatore di identit europea per i fornitori di servizi e di informazioni su Internet viene percepito come un prezioso incentivo al commercio elettronico e alla transizione alla societ dell'informazione su scala europea. Il vertice europeo di Lisbona ha sottolineato la necessit, per le imprese e per i cittadini, di avere accesso ad un'infrastruttura di comunicazioni di livello mondiale e a prezzi abbordabili, nonch矇 ad un'ampia gamma di servizi. La creazione del nome di dominio .EU, dedicato alle esigenze del commercio elettronico, dell'istruzione, dei servizi pubblici, delle biblioteche, delle istituzioni scientifiche e culturali e a vantaggio dell'utente finale, andr ad integrare altre politiche europee nel settore. Il nome di dominio .EU rientra nella recente iniziativa e-Europe della Commissione. Nel febbraio 2000 la Commissione ha avviato una consultazione pubblica basata su un documento che descrive le opportunit e pone una serie di domande sulla necessit e modalit di creazione del nome di dominio di primo livello .EU proposto. Pertanto, scopo della presente comunicazione 癡 di informare il Parlamento europeo e il Consiglio sugli elementi esposti qui di seguito: - i principali esiti della consultazione pubblica; - le conclusioni tratte dalla Commissione; - le prossime azioni da intraprendere ai fini della messa in atto della proposta. La presente comunicazione chiede inoltre al Consiglio e al Parlamento europeo di adottare tali azioni e di sostenere le iniziative da intraprendere per ottenere l'inserimento operativo del nome di dominio EU nel sistema dei nomi di dominio (DNS) globale... FULL DOCUMENT Le altre news Dalla Redazione di Patnet 簞 Il DMCI colpisce ancora. Un russo viola la crittazione degli e-book 簞 La nuova protezione per i CD compromette la qualit audio? 簞 Il Copyright Office considera webradio anche i servizi interattivi 簞 Corte d'Appello USA conferma brevetto sui download 簞 Cultura della Propriet Intellettuale nelle scuole inglesi 簞 Le biblioteche: covo di contraffattori? Intervista a Paolo Ardemagni, presidente della B.S.A. (Business Software Alliance) da Interviste di Patnet Paolo Ardemagni, dopo varie esperienze in Societ dell'Information Technology, culminate con la direzione della filiale Nord della Fast Itala, primo distributore di Novell in Italia, nel 1992 entra a far parte di Central Point Software in qualit di Country Manager Italia e Mediterraneo, posizione che mantiene fino al 1994, data della fusione della societ con Symantec , dove 癡 entrato con la posizione di Country Manager per l'Italia. Successivamente, Ardemagni ha ricoperto l'incarico di direttore vendite per l'Italia e la Francia, posizione mantenuta fino all'ottobre 1996, data in cui 癡 stato nominato Direttore vendite e marketing per l'Italia e i mercati emergenti. Dall'aprile 1999 con la funzione di Senior Regional Director Sales & Marketing, Ardemagni ha aperto per Symantec i mercati mediterranei e quelli emergenti con le filiali di Spagna, Israele, Emirati Arabi e Sud Africa. E' stato recentemente nominato Vice Presidente Sales & Marketing per il Sud Europa dopo una continua performance di crescita nei suoi territori. Dal Lugio del 2000 Paolo Ardemagni 癡 il nuovo presidente di BSA - Business Software Alliance, l'associazione internazionale senza fine di lucro contro la pirateria informatica. FULL INTERVIEW Scrivici Per qualsiasi informazione o suggerimento contatta l'indirizzo: info at patnet.it Se non desideri ricevere pi羅 questa newsletter, manda una email con subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" all'indirizzo: newsletter at patnet.it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 08:31:11 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:31:11 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44500@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found nicolesfairytale..doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: nicolesfairytale", was sent from Robert Zuk and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 08:32:47 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:32:47 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44504@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found My Dream Room.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: My Dream Room", was sent from Robert Zuk and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 08:33:06 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:33:06 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44506@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found fakstransfrontier.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: fakstransfrontier", was sent from Ave Poom and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From jya at pipeline.com Tue Jul 24 11:34:39 2001 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:34:39 -0700 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: <20010724105858.A11911@ils.unc.edu> References: <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200107241534.LAA07303@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> In follow-up to Adobe's claim in the press release that AEBPR is no longer available in the US we would appreciate pointers to sources for the program in the US or elsewhere (other than Elcomsoft's offerings of the trial versions). Full capability versions preferred but pointers to sources of the trial versions okay. PGP-ed answers preferred. JY PK below. Dave Touretzky at CMU has a call out for contributions to the technical study of of eBook protections: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/ --- ID: 0xC3207009 Fingerprint: 3791 CC39 66E8 EF1D CCA4 CA48 0C56 D974 C320 7009 -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use mQGiBDmpjpURBAD6LkFyCYrXyetmgvdjf2DXynnYsy1j8keHW7qbiVQ2y3SgrEp1 bz5OTnqZ/qmLDUQ45s1q3PxgP473bEqK8PeXllJ5kRzOwfdexv2VBlQLLEQGlcza Ke2vGXjWm5XGCIeVtYe2ToBh//6xkGn2tSp6U8Sj+NPYc0t8DvXyyIT7pQCg/0z1 y06zARLlS3fJn9W8gd6fJIED/1QUPbQS71kaS8zExgqzR716mMSD82yp3/qC6yOD nTbCPV/vFGeM8zUvEz+HzAEHtQ9JAYfSukamWPM0N2hrNzDb9wRaWoQ9dWZdBwep NlLW7vkwmhJsrTv+tabhCKYBM8b9XcWlM8aiwDtT8X/d5DoGTxSGTSk5tE3tMRng g/ZTA/9h/iSEXTcRug1qPsnIqcquLVFt9VVR3xTPnN1CqosLIv9oL3K4LkEvWzn/ j5TLQBxPPfPiNnYtk0JuXj/fRVbSVTvFZMawwp43+PCSVB0mtsulzmrTosqI568q Qp5/fM903AGdh2GGDV9IA22CX2BtMEAUXsc4ShwhH0dFh6fWZ7QdSm9obiBZb3Vu ZyA8anlhQHBpcGVsaW5lLmNvbT6JAE4EEBECAA4FAjmpjpUECwMCAQIZAQAKCRAM Vtl0wyBwCYBDAJ9H5kmH+Lzk/uF5C1o983nDh8Ll4gCfdtVIfGZ2nVIKPb+LzN9b A4Yh5K+5Ag0EOamOlRAIAPZCV7cIfwgXcqK61qlC8wXo+VMROU+28W65Szgg2gGn VqMU6Y9AVfPQB8bLQ6mUrfdMZIZJ+AyDvWXpF9Sh01D49Vlf3HZSTz09jdvOmeFX klnN/biudE/F/Ha8g8VHMGHOfMlm/xX5u/2RXscBqtNbno2gpXI61Brwv0YAWCvl 9Ij9WE5J280gtJ3kkQc2azNsOA1FHQ98iLMcfFstjvbzySPAQ/ClWxiNjrtVjLhd ONM0/XwXV0OjHRhs3jMhLLUq/zzhsSlAGBGNfISnCnLWhsQDGcgHKXrKlQzZlp+r 0ApQmwJG0wg9ZqRdQZ+cfL2JSyIZJrqrol7DVekyCzsAAgIH/i3wAsfX3gaaq21t eXKBv6YO85gUFa6CFzRZemwFW9n1RzAnYUCNoLSZ4pmGnWKs7t50zS9sie1fLHCA aZ6CuJNQOF8MAaxgX3DqQRnInKJyK+WSSH5YOG4N5Bq7CMvbLiMDVKOtJFxEX4Kq Dd+0nCkGce7uwoBzU+rbINEeEVZdo6Pr+J5dfm+4Ac8WQ/HeHlwUmkg0YXZPkkDD MdjrxoTvUEKECjk3Orwrymj/531hIKZDDme4LqjDbPCOon1WaKIBJEudXMESUiIW tdQNGCHEZKChfwuX7tq9SFfHlc5fzOqBfXxHvvMMgRk4IfZWI3ZPWdbSoGQ+9mFK 59AToVuJAEYEGBECAAYFAjmpjpUACgkQDFbZdMMgcAlX4QCgwjrFBkAq+Q6CvsLW I/Z8BY/ETR0AoOcddpzxnmLBjf97J4WUII7tNcZ4 =0rDn -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From decoy at iki.fi Tue Jul 24 01:39:57 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:39:57 +0300 (EEST) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <001501c113c9$cfbb5700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: >Perhaps we should just designate the funds, payable monthly, for every month >Choate doesn't post anything to the list? Coase at work, eh? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Jul 24 09:45:47 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:45:47 -0500 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anybody know how much grease Adobe has in Russia? ~Aimee From amaha at vsnl.net Tue Jul 24 09:49:37 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:49:37 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107241649.f6OGnbq10194@ak47.algebra.com> The ancestor of every action is a thought --Ralph Waldo Emerson ========================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 12:14:53 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (petro at bounty.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:14:53 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010724121453.A335@gamez.bounty.org> On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:03:59AM -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote: > Adobe's fine on the consumption side -- it's customers, as you say, > are fat and happy. But on the production side, Adobe can't take > very many really serious hits. At best, it only ever had about > five truly brilliant coders at any one time, and in this industry > there is just no making up for losing one. If it turns out to be > true, their productivity is damaged for years to come. One could suggest that a company doesn't need a stellar product to thrive in the software market place. For example there is Microsoft. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Jul 24 04:33:56 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:33:56 +0100 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: Message-ID: <3B5D5D24.D6167FD3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > Not-a-lawyer wrote: [...] > > We're not talking about > > 'self-defence' here... > > No, we're talking 'self-defense', this is the US, not the UK. Actually Sandy, it was Italy. I haven't got the faintest ideas what the laws on self-defence are in Italy. And I'm bloody-well sure Jim doesn't either. Whay are you arguing with himn? We saw long ago that, for reasons he may well understand but most of us don't, Jim will never admit that there may be a factual mistake in anything he writes. He always tries to redefine terms, bring up irrelevancies, alter emphases, to make something that looks factually wrong seem as if it might just about have been true in context. If Jim writes 20 things down, 19 of which are true and someone objects to the 1 that is false, any following thread turns into a ducking and weaving semantic flamewar about the one false statement. So a discussion about whether the Italian police were right to shoot someone in Genova turns into an argument about the momentum of model rockets - all because Jim can't bring himself to say something like: "I don't know, I wasn't there, I guess if the police account of what happened is true then they might have been in fear of their lives, so maybe we can't blame them for shooting. On the other hand, maybe the news accounts are faked or exagerated and they were just picking on the guy. I can't tell, I wasn't there and I haven't talked to anyone who was." But the words "I don't know" seem hard for some people to write down :-( Ken Brown (who doesn't know why he is joining the argument, when he has work to do) From declan at well.com Tue Jul 24 09:47:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:47:59 -0400 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:47:19AM -0700 References: <3B5D5D24.D6167FD3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20010724124758.A22615@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:47:19AM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > It is educational (and it amuses me) to draw him out into parading his > ignorance and intransigence for all to see. Of course, he won't admit he is Educational? Only in the study of aberrant thinking. I confess I've baited Choate more than I care to remember, but I'm not sure going out of your way to taunt him is particularly educational or worthwhile. Someone wrote to me yesterday with this note: "poor guy, i dont think he knows how to handle all the attention...and i think he will just ignore you guys and let it passby and continue being himself. too bad, it would in fact be fun to have cpunx mail reduced by that much." -Decan From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 09:52:20 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:52:20 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4450C@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Gorby Reeves Agreement Letter.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Gorby Reeves Agreement Letter", was sent from Lesha Harris and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From measl at mfn.org Tue Jul 24 10:58:25 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:58:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Seeking parnership In-Reply-To: <200107241205.QAA50082@ns.tl.ru> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Alexander wrote: > Dear Sir/Madam: > > We are Russian software development company. We are seeking for software > development projects that we could implement. I have a small pdf application you might be able to work on... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pzakas at toucancapital.com Tue Jul 24 10:18:31 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:18:31 -0400 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c11464$aa569290$9865fea9@chimera19> Whatever it was, it certainly is likely to have been mucked up now. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM] > On Behalf Of Aimee Farr > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 12:46 PM > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: RE: Vengeance Against Adobe > > > Anybody know how much grease Adobe has in Russia? > > ~Aimee From rsw at MIT.EDU Tue Jul 24 10:31:31 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:31:31 -0400 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <9jjv8v$1tr$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>; from iang@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu on Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 02:04:15PM +0000 References: <200107240456.f6O4uLE12826@artifact.psychedelic.net> <9jjv8v$1tr$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20010724133131.B10569@positron.mit.edu> Ian Goldberg wrote: > I've never used Distiller; is it more than a Postscript-to-PDF > converter? The free ps2pdf is part of ghostscript. It is just a ps to pdf converter, but it generates better PDFs than ps2pdf (that is, smaller, better font handling, etc). -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 13:34:04 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:34:04 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? Message-ID: C'punks, I'm concerned that something terribly wrong has happened to Inchoate. Even though he has been offered hundreds of dollars to take, and get a good score on, the LSAT, he hasn't risen to the bai...uh... occasion. It would appear that Jimbo has been secretly replaced by a random nonsense generating AI. (Hey, artificial intelligence is better than no intelligence at all.) Was Jimbo abducted by aliens? Congressman Condit? The ASPCA? Please join me in the Search for Jimbo (soon to be a FOX Special Report). Until he has proven that he is back by agreeing to take the LSAT challenge, let's keep the heat on by shouting from the highest hills (or at least from e-mail), "Where is Dildo?" S a n d y /| |/ \ / \ \ / \ \ / \ \ /_______\/ | | | | | o | | | //// | | | ||||| | | | (.)~(x) | | | | O | | | | (_=_) | | | |_| | | | | | |WHERE IS | | | DILDO? | | |_________|/ From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 24 10:37:30 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RAND Privacy Conference: pdf links Message-ID: RAND Privacy and Emerging Technologies Conference http://www.rand.org/hot/privconf/index.html "How do emerging technologies such as biotechnology, computer monitoring, and overhead imaging impact privacy and corresponding policy? As emerging technologies improve the private and public sectors' ability to gather individual information, policymakers must call into question: *The balance between security and privacy *The difference between perceived and legitimate privacy threats *The inter-linkages among emerging technologies and the impact on privacy *The roles of government and industry in regulating privacy Join RAND analysts, legal scholars, policymakers, executive and legislative branch officials and business leaders in examining these issues on July 23, 2001, at RAND's Washington Office. RAND's Privacy and Emerging Technologies Conference is sponsored by the Arroyo Center." Unfortunately, it was yesterday, but there are still lots of excellent online .pdf documents linked in the "related publications" page: http://www.rand.org/hot/privconf/relatedpubs.html From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 24 10:47:13 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ABC: "Exercise Exposes U.S. Vulnerability to Bio-terrorism" Message-ID: ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT ABC TV 7:00 PM JULY 23, 2001 EXERCISE EXPOSES U.S. VULNERABILITY TO BIO-TERRORISM: A recent exercise conducted at Andrews Air Force Base demonstrated clearly that neither U.S. political leaders, nor the American health care system, is prepared to respond adequately to any major bio-terrorist attack. Peter Jennings, John Yang, ABC. Exercise Exposes U.S. Vulnerability to Bio-terrorism PETER JENNINGS: In Washington today, there was a dramatic reminder the U.S. has a lot to do if it wants to be ready for a bio-terrorist attack on the country. A few weeks ago, at Andrews Air Force Base, former and current government officials participated in an exercise called "Dark Winter." It was designed to see how the U.S. might respond to a smallpox attack - not very well. Here's ABC's John Yang. JOHN YANG: This was the scenario - in Oklahoma City, twenty confirmed cases of smallpox. More suspected in Georgia and Pennsylvania. The White House is in crisis. Former senator Sam Nunn played the role of the president. SAM NUNN [Former Senator]: The enemy is invisible. The enemy is insidious and spreading everywhere, and you don't know how to contain it. YANG: Mr. Nunn had at his disposal a makeshift national security council of former federal officials. His first questions were about public health. The answers were grim there - is no cure and vaccine for only 12 million in the United States. Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating played himself. FRANK KEATING [Governor of Oklahoma]: It was one of those situations that got more horrific as more information rolled out. YANG: As they tried to limit the outbreak, tensions quickly arose between health officials and the military - who would get the vaccines? And between federal and local authorities - who was in charge? GOV. KEATING: I said, "I'm going to close the airports. I'm going to close all roads in and out of my state." One of the generals from the federal family said, "what authority do you have to do that?" And I said, "I just did it." YANG: It was too late. They were soon told the outbreak would spread to 25 states, and 300,000 people would be infected within two months. While the details of the smallpox outbreak were hypothetical, the participants say they came away with very real lessons. NUNN: I would like to tell you that the people sitting around the table were just amateurs, but these are the real players, and these are people who have the knowledge. And I can say without any question, this country is not prepared. YANG: The politicians are not prepared, and the public health system is certainly not prepared. John Yang, ABC News, Washington. From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Jul 24 10:53:50 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:53:50 -0400 Subject: Choate Testing His ASAT Again? Message-ID: Apparently there was an unanticipated meteor shower last evening visible from New York to Virginia. According to the story on Yahoo: "A Reuters reporter saw a tapered object shaped like a trumpet bell falling diagonally through the western sky near West Chester, Pennsylvania, 20 miles from Philadelphia at about 6:20. The object emitted a lustrous rainbow of colors ranging from bright yellow on its downward-pointing flared end to light green and finally rust-colored red at the upward pointing tapered end." http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010723/sc/life_sightings_dc_3.html Admittedly off topic, but did anyone see any of the meteors? Jim Windle Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 24 07:04:15 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: 24 Jul 2001 14:04:15 GMT Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe References: <200107240456.f6O4uLE12826@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <9jjv8v$1tr$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> In article , Petro wrote: >At 9:56 PM -0700 7/23/01, Eric Cordian wrote: >>Tim writes: >> >>> Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their >>> own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be >>> forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they >>> eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers >>> and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next >>> spring to recruit. >> >>Adobe's pulling back on Dmitry doesn't change the fact that the company >>lied in saying what was being distributed was "copyrighted Adobe >>software." >> >>Despite the EFF's effusive praise of Adobe, I don't plan to use any Adobe >>software in the future. > > Is there a workable freeware alternative to Distiller? I've never used Distiller; is it more than a Postscript-to-PDF converter? The free ps2pdf is part of ghostscript. - Ian From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Jul 24 05:46:32 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:46:32 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've Jim, why are you trying so hard to make a complete fool out of yourself, in a public forum? A chemical laser needs active optics to track your remote target. What do you think that optics is made from, unobtainium? Do you understand basic laws of optics? I recommend purchasing a 15 W laser (and a pair of matching protection goggles), and then use it to ignite a match from a close distance, and then over a few km, preferably during summer in your native Texas. You could target the beam towards a projection wall, and watch it with a pair of binoculars. It will be quite instructive. > got weight issues that this would entail. It's not like they've got a lot > of overhead for the job. I suspect that faceting wouldn't be any more > effective than a smoothly round body form, it could have aerodynamic > effects as well (ie sharp corners at the facet edges - and yes they could > be rounded - now you're moving back toward a round rocket planform). High albedo coating of the missile is *cheap*. Powerful lasers are that not, especially if you need to have several of them online in an area. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Jul 24 05:46:32 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:46:32 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've Jim, why are you trying so hard to make a complete fool out of yourself, in a public forum? A chemical laser needs active optics to track your remote target. What do you think that optics is made from, unobtainium? Do you understand basic laws of optics? I recommend purchasing a 15 W laser (and a pair of matching protection goggles), and then use it to ignite a match from a close distance, and then over a few km, preferably during summer in your native Texas. You could target the beam towards a projection wall, and watch it with a pair of binoculars. It will be quite instructive. > got weight issues that this would entail. It's not like they've got a lot > of overhead for the job. I suspect that faceting wouldn't be any more > effective than a smoothly round body form, it could have aerodynamic > effects as well (ie sharp corners at the facet edges - and yes they could > be rounded - now you're moving back toward a round rocket planform). High albedo coating of the missile is *cheap*. Powerful lasers are that not, especially if you need to have several of them online in an area. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 11:52:33 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:52:33 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4450E@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 罈繞羸瞻瞿竅y簡\.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 罈繞羸瞻瞿竅y簡\", was sent from 繒羹 and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 12:52:42 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:52:42 -0500 Subject: SciAm: Computing with light Message-ID: http://www.sciam.com/2001/0801issue/0801scicit6.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 12:55:38 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:55:38 -0500 Subject: SciAm: US Workers and the Law: Labor rights of Americans lag behind those of other nations Message-ID: http://www.sciam.com/2001/0801issue/0801numbers.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 11:57:14 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:57:14 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44510@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 罈繞羸瞻瞿竅y簡\.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 罈繞羸瞻瞿竅y簡\", was sent from 繒羹 and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From RequiresResponse at starmail.cc Tue Jul 24 15:13:20 2001 From: RequiresResponse at starmail.cc (RequiresResponse at starmail.cc) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:13:20 Subject: CASH Message-ID: <200107241957.PAA00940@snscoq.sscoquimbo.cl> CASH

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From R-8-726963-2422109-2-4582-US2-57D55812 at xmr3.com Tue Jul 24 12:15:06 2001 From: R-8-726963-2422109-2-4582-US2-57D55812 at xmr3.com (TechTarget.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:15:06 -0400 Subject: Free Training - Configuring Windows 2000 Network Protocols Message-ID: Featured Training - Windows 2000 Network Infrastructure: Configuring Network Protocols CD-ROM Duration: 5 Hours Price: Free! This course introduces you to some commonly used network protocols. You will learn to install and configure TCP/IP, NWLink, and Network Binding. You will also learn about IP addressing, default gateways, and host name and NETBIOS resolutions. The use of the Windows 2000 performance logs and alerts to view TCP/IP related counters and troubleshooting problems encountered while using TCP/IP are also covered in this course. Finally, the course discusses Internet Protocol Security (IPSec), in particular the functions, benefits, and the procedures for adding and managing IPSec policies and rules. Using this interactive-CD-ROM you will learn: * Installing and Configuring Network Protocols * Configuring TCP/IP * Monitoring Network Traffic * Configuring and Troubleshooting IPSec Learn more and order this free training course: http://whatis.gofcs.com/products/by_product/WT0280/index.html For more information or questions please mailto:learningzone at techtarget.com You are receiving this message because you have requested 3rd party email from TechTarget.com. If you prefer to not receive further 3rd party email, "Reply" to this message with REMOVE in the subject line. You will receive a confirmation email. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 12:23:39 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:23:39 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44512@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Ham and Swiss Stromboli.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Ham and Swiss Stromboli", was sent from JREIDINGER and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 12:27:16 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:27:16 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44514@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found D.reizen.soll.1.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: D", was sent from Paul De Freitas and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From reeza at flex.com Tue Jul 24 18:28:53 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:28:53 -1000 Subject: A proletariat experiment... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723231519.031a6570@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010723160050.0317fe90@flex.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010724152613.02b23b80@flex.com> At 11:28 PM 7/23/01, Reese wrote: >At 10:11 PM 7/23/01, Petro wrote: > > Depending on the construction of the container you could add another > >5 to 10 pounds for the bottle etc. > >15 lbs bottle, 50 lbs total weight including agent. I'll check out the >security classification on the PMS card and if it's unrestricted, scan >one and post the url after I upload it. It's restricted. What was once an R-7 is now an R-24, and what was once an across the board 49.5 lbs is now anywhere from 40 to 60 lbs, depending on size of bottle and the material the bottle is constructed from, there are four different weights listed. Sorry I cannot say more. Reese From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 13:42:51 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:42:51 -0500 Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor Message-ID: http://salon.com/news/feature/2001/07/23/genoa/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 24 13:51:22 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:51:22 -0500 Subject: MJ: Debt to Society - The real cost of prisons Message-ID: http://www.motherjones.com/prisons/ James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 15:52:08 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:52:08 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: A question of self-defence...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inchoate tried to dazzle us with his foot work: > The particular principle that is behind it is called, > > 'principium inculpatae tutelae' Yeah sure, the protector must be above reproach (loose translation of the idiom), but that doesn't say anything about self-sacrifice you twit. To be "without blame" (a more precise translation) only mean to have not acted in an unfair way. Shooting guys who are trying to bash you with a steel cylinder is not unfair, it's just good sense. S a n d y /| |/ \ / \ \ / \ \ / \ \ /_______\/ | | | | | o | | | //// | | | ||||| | | | (.)~(x) | | | | O | | | | (_=_) | | | |_| | | | | | |WHERE IS | | | DILDO? | | |_________|/ From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 24 15:57:41 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plan Message-ID: <20010724225741.63365.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Tasteless as it may sound (but this is home of cypherpranks anyway), it seems that Sklyarov's arrest advanced the anti-DMCA case more than anything else. And it will continue to advance it as long he remains in jail. Almost as if the whole thing was a clever setup. And it works. If feds release him they will prove that they are a corporate police in very clear terms. If they do not release him DMCA is facing a very real challenge. So I'd like to congratulate to whoever has masterminded this in Adobe. Excellent job. And when DMCA collapses the author should get public recognition. - ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 15:58:02 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:58:02 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Faustine wrote: > All free-market principles aside, > if you're just in it for the > paycheck, what's the point? I'd > rather do something I love that's > meaningful to me than just make a > pile. Even better not to have to > choose at all. (Not there yet, so > #1 it is...) Have faith. I think that you can have both in a manner analogous to the Robert Heinlein quote: "It may be better to be a live jackal then a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier." S a n d y From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Jul 24 16:05:44 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:05:44 -0700 Subject: mirrors and lasers Message-ID: <3B5DFF48.BD50EA91@lsil.com> >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > >> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >> >> > Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've >> >> Jim, why are you trying so hard to make a complete fool out of yourself, >> in a public forum? >> >> A chemical laser needs active optics to track your remote target. What do >> you think that optics is made from, unobtainium? Do you understand basic >> laws of optics? I recommend purchasing a 15 W laser (and a pair of >> matching protection goggles), and then use it to ignite a match from a >> close distance, and then over a few km, preferably during summer in your >> native Texas. You could target the beam towards a projection wall, and >> watch it with a pair of binoculars. It will be quite instructive. > Sure but take some dramamine first if you get motion sickness. > >The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) >transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is >required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, 100%, >reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror >interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Are you implying that the wavelength for incident photons changes upon interaction with the mirror? The energy loss at the mirror is lost photons not altered wavelengths. The lost photons have varying fates. Mike From inquiries at rambler.ru Tue Jul 24 05:07:04 2001 From: inquiries at rambler.ru (Alexander) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:07:04 +0400 Subject: Seeking parnership Message-ID: <200107241205.QAA50082@ns.tl.ru> Dear Sir/Madam: We are Russian software development company. We are seeking for software development projects that we could implement. Our offshore location alllows us to charge only 10 dollars per hour. Nonetheless, we provide competitive quality and reasonably short development terms. Our fields of development include Web sites, e-commerce systems, Internet programming and many more. You can assess our vast knowledge and expertise by looking at the brief summary of skills in the enclosure in the end of this letter. We can provide you with our references and previous projects. If interested, please send your offers and inquiries to inquiries at rambler.ru Sincerely yours, Alexander. Enclosure. Brief summary of our skills and expertise. Hardware: PC Operating systems: MS Windows 3.x/95/98/2000/NT, MS DOS, Linux DBMS: SQL Server, FoxPro, Interbase, MS Access, Oracle Languages: C/C++, Pascal, Java, SQL, Basic, Prolog, Assembler Internet technologies: HTML/DHTML, XML, JavaScript, VBScript, ASP, SSI, Windows Sockets, ColdFusion, CGI, Perl, PHP Other technologies: COM/OLE, ActiveX, ODBC, DAO, ADO, WinAPI Software: MS Visual C++, C++ Builder, Borland C++, Delphi, Borland Pascal, MS Visual J++, JBuilder, Visual Basic, VBA, PhotoShop, Turbo Assembler, IIS, MS Office From freematt at coil.com Tue Jul 24 13:16:39 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:16:39 -0400 Subject: The FBI and the X-Files Message-ID: THE FBI AND THE X-FILES The recent troubles of the Federal Bureau of Investigation are a far cry from the nearly unanimous praise the agency received from the federal government and the media for most of its life. Yet judging by the popularity of the Fox-TV show "The X-Files," the American public entertained doubts about the FBI years before it had heard about Robert Hanssen, Wen Ho Lee, or the agency's missing firearms and laptop computers. What a tidal change. Before the show debuted, Fox executives worried that the show's political undertones, implying that the FBI routinely withheld Important News from the public, would turn off too many viewers. Today, we know "The X-Files" was the hit that put Fox on the map. "One can see what an extraordinary development 'The X-Files' represents in American popular culture by concentrating on the fact that, for all its science-fiction and horror elements, it is fundamentally a series about the FBI," writes Paul Cantor in the summer issue of THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW. "As a TV advertiser might put it, however, this is not your father's FBI -- and certainly not J. Edgar Hoover's. Far from being the hero of the series, as one might expect on American television, the federal agency is virtually the villain." And the FBI's television villainy was not limited to bureaucratic incompetence, although that was one aspect. "As the series developed, it began to suggest that the opposition to [main characters] Mulder and Scully is the product of sinister forces working within the FBI or at least exerting pressure on it from other branches of the federal government. We gradually learn that this agency, which more than any other over the years has represented the federal government's ability to uncover threats to its citizens is being used as part of a plot to cover up the greatest threat the American people have ever faced -- a worldwide conspiracy to aid aliens in taking over the earth." "Alien takeover" aside, the reality of the FBI's problems may simply be inherent in the agency's operations as a government bureaucracy subject to political whims and pressures. See: "This Is Not Your Father's FBI: 'The X-Files' and the Delegitimation of the Nation-State" by Paul Cantor (THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW, Summer 2001), at: http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-29-4.html Also see: Bruce Benson's op-ed, "The Countervailing Trend to FBI Failures," at: http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-29-5.html TO SERVE AND PROTECT: Privatization and Community in Criminal Justice, by Bruce Benson (The Independent Institute/New York University Press, 1998) http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-29-6.html ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Tue Jul 24 13:19:06 2001 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:19:06 -0400 Subject: Persistance of [was: Urgent Business Proposal.] In-Reply-To: <200107241742.KAA10141@toad.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010724161906.009fd540@ct2.nai.net> This is like the 30th Nigerian bullshit solicitation in the last 2 weeks. I wish someone would just go down there and clear the assholes out so their country can regain some sort of integrity... Possibly when G8 is done, the forces can be sent to africa to bonk the fraudsters with canisters over the head or something. or, possibly, they can be led to solicit themselves to all fly to the us where they will be instantly arrested for doing ungood, as opposed to recent ruskiis who engage intellectual activities (which though are distasteful due to finances) and are now suppressed... Too bad... What a disgraceful world... -WLG At 06:43 PM 7/24/2001, you wrote: > FROM: Dr. Chukuma Okpara DATE: 24th July 2001 Dear Sir, URGENT >BUSINESS PROPOSAL: STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL I am Dr Chukuma Okpara Director >of procurement and contracts with Nigeria National Petroleum Corporation >(NNPC) of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Sometime ago, my corporation >(NNPC) awarded a contract to Total Oil International, to service Turn >Around Maintenance and rehabilitation work in Kaduna Refinery and >Petrol-chemical Company (KRPC) plant in Nigeria. This contract was >over-invoiced by us to the tune of US $75 Million (Seventy Five Million >Dollars). Some officials and myself reached a compromise to transfer the >fund into a foreign bank account that will accommodate this fund. For >providing the beneficiary's account you will be entitled to 25% of the >total sum, 70% for myself and partners, while 5% will be set aside to >offset any expenses that may be incurred by either party during the >transfer process. To enable us put up claims, we would require the >following information: (1). Name to be used as beneficiary, telephone/fax >number. (2). A written and signed letter of guarantee to confirm to us >that the said fund is safe when transferred and our share will be given to >us accordingly. After the successful completion of this deal, we intend to >use part of our share to invest into your corporation or any business as >may be advised by you. Please contact my financial adviser Mr. Yaya Ahmed >in the Netherlands who will give you brief details of this transaction. >His telephone numbers are +44 771 369 3506 or +31 612 309 149 and fax >number is +44 870 135 2749. Be advised that confidentiality is required >because we are civil servants and do not want any scandal. My email >address is yahammed at yahoo.co.uk. Yours Faithfully Dr. Chukuma Okpara. > ;' From bounce-investorsedge-1655339 at lyris.investorsedge.net Tue Jul 24 16:40:20 2001 From: bounce-investorsedge-1655339 at lyris.investorsedge.net (InvestorsEdge) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:40:20 -0700 Subject: Investors Edge Newsletter Message-ID: [BG Capital Group] July 24, 2001 Volume 1 Issue 6 [Image] Dear Investor: The Stewart Report, A Prestigious West Coast Newsletter, Initiates Coverage Of The Neptune Society And Issues A 'Strong Buy' Press Release The Stewart Report is a special situations financial newsletter that has been the focus of feature stories in Barron's, Money magazine, The New York Times, Investor's Business Daily, Entrepreneur magazine and Fortune. "We are excited to have garnered the attention of The Stewart Report." Marco Markin CEO & President of the Neptune Society -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE COMPANY CONTACT: Gary R. Loffredo, Director (800) 535-7935 Neptune Society Leads As Death-Care Stocks Buck Market Trend DANA POINT, Calif., July 24 /PRNewswire/ -- In recent weeks, one of the market's most progressive sectors has been the death-care industry with national mortuary chains such as Service Corp International, Carriage Services and Stewart Enterprises, Inc. having risen to within a few points of their 52-week highs. However, it's The Neptune Society (OTC Bulletin Board: NTUN), the nation's only cremation specialist and the only death-care provider with a brand name familiar to consumers nationwide that seems to be at the forefront of the latest move, allowing it to buck today's downdrafts in both the Dow Jones Industrial and Nasdaq Composite averages. Neptune's price resiliency and strong volume have been attributed by some observers to The Stewart Report, a West Coast research letter that initiated coverage on the stock this week. Moreover, Stewart believes expanding awareness of Neptune's intention to list on a senior exchange will carry the stock higher still. The Stewart Report's analysis of The Neptune Society highlights its niche opportunity in the marketing of pre-need cremation services, payments for which have generated a rapidly growing company trust fund that presently totals more than $40 million. Analyst J. David Stewart says the trust fund which has already endowed the Neptune network with a 13-year backlog of business in the midst of its best operating year ever, will likely grow to $99 million by year-end 2005. Stewart also sees a string of steadily improving operational years, thanks to a diverse set of socio-economic factors presently coming into play. These include the aging baby boomer population, the expanding geographical range of American families, new consumer attitudes towards land usage as it relates to traditional casket funerals, and an increasing cost consciousness in death-care planning. Safe Harbor This press release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Readers/Investors are cautioned that the forward-looking statements are inherently uncertain, including statements related to the Company's business strategy, success of its acquisitions, its ability to implement its current business and growth strategies, the ability to implement acquisitions and start up offices into its existing operations, its ability to obtain sufficient financing to fund its proposed growth, the Company's ability to develop its brand name and effectively market its services and the Company's expectations for future success. Actual performance and results of operations may differ materially from those projected or suggested. The forward-looking statements contained herein represent the Company's judgment as of the date of this release, and the Company cautions the reader not to place undue reliance on such statements. These forward-looking statements should not be reprinted, reiterated nor considered an inducement for investment. About The Neptune Society Headquartered in Burbank, CA., The Neptune Society Inc. is one of North America's largest cremation specialists, and is the only publicly traded company dealing solely in cremation services. The Neptune Society, operating for nearly three decades with locations in California, Florida, New York, Washington, Iowa, Oregon and Arizona has provided thousands of cremation services and currently has close to 60,000 active contracts and nearly $40 million in trust in its unique Pre-Need program. The Neptune Society's goal is to provide a simple, dignified and economic alternative to the traditional funeral burial service system. ### -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- Highlights Of The Stewart Report *** Key Investment Considerations *** The Neptune Society簧 is positioned for the market maturation of the "Baby Boomers" and the "Graying of America." A compelling value proposition for cremation is its simple; the average funeral runs from $10-15,000 and the average cremation runs $1-3,000. That's a $9-12,000 spread. The $15 billion death-care industry has recently survived a five-year shake-out by attrition, acquisition, or merger that has left the U.S. with only four publicly traded chains and 22,000 independent mortuary operators. The Neptune Society is the only public "pure play" in the cremation segment of the death-care services industry and the company benefits from extensive goodwill from its reputation and high visibility brand name built during its 27-year history. The Neptune Society received a 'Strong Buy' recommendation from J. David Stewart of The Stewart Report with the stock under $8 and a 6-12 month target price of $17.50. The Neptune Society has 18 locations in 7 states with strategic growth initiatives to add to those numbers in 2001 as they expand to meet demographic concentrations. The company also has a dedicated "call center" with 20 telemarketers in Tempe, AZ. The Neptune Trust Fund to facilitate 60,000 'Pre-Need' contracts sold and not fulfilled approximately $40 million strong. It is estimated the Trust will reach $99 million by 2005. "The Neptune Society offers the industry's best price leverage due to its petite market cap of less than $50 million." To date, 2001 is breaking all company records with estimated gross sales for the year at $18 million, new 'Pre-Need' contract sales estimated at 10,000, and 'At-Need' sales and administrative fees coming from an estimated 7,000 fulfillments. -------------------------------------------------------- Recent Events Of The Neptune Society Cremation service revenues were $2,242,000 for the three months that ended March 31, 2001 compared to $1,328,000 in 2000, nearly double the same period last year. The Neptune Society provided 6,639 cremations in 2000 and has already provided 5,098 in the first five months of 2001, that is double the same period last year with a very conservative projected total for 2001 to be approximately 7,400. The Neptune Society's new management team, assembled since 1999, has substantial industry expertise. The management has implemented a multi-pronged marketing strategy focused on selling "Pre-Need" cremation plans. Including direct sales over their Web site, the strategy also includes direct mail of approximately six million pieces being sent in 2001 and the support of five sales managers with approximately 200 independent, commission-only sales representatives providing follow-up. The Neptune Society recently received an 'Aggressive Buy' recommendation from Banyan Capital Markets with a target price of $8.00. The company has a guaranteed 13-year business backlog. Due to the nature of the company's business, it is virtually recession-proof. -------------------------------------------------------- For more information, contact: Gary R. Loffredo (800) 535-7935 Corporate Investor Relations [Image] The Neptune Society Corporate Headquarters 3500 W. Olive Suite # 1430 Burbank, CA 91505 Telephone: 888-637-8863 E-mail: info at neptunesociety.com Visit The Neptune Society on the Web: Click here We invite you to investigate the Neptune Society, trading symbol NTUN, by using the following links. Links to more information: Recent SEC Filings click here Click here for Financial Chart For Trading Technicals click here For current stock quote click here Disclaimer: The information contained herein is based on news releases or other reports written and disseminated entirely by the subject company. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which Investors Edge has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. Although Investors Edge has not been compensated for dissemination and posting of this information, Investors Edge, its owners, agents affiliates and employees may from time to time have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. This constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject company. Write or call Investors Edge for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. Investors Edge and its owners, agents and employees are not investment advisors and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Investors Edge (Copyright 2001.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Safe Harbor Statement: This press release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Readers/Investors are cautioned that the forward- looking statements are inherently uncertain, including statements related to the Company's business strategy, success of its acquisitions, its ability to integrate its current business strategies into its existing operations and the Company's expectations for future success. Actual performance and results of operations may differ materially from those projected or suggested. The forward-looking statements contained herein represent the Company's judgment as of the date of this release, and the Company cautions the reader not to place undue reliance on such statements. These forward-looking statements should not be reprinted, reiterated nor considered an inducement for investment. Copyright 穢 2001 Investors Edge --- You are currently subscribed to investorsedge as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-investorsedge-1655339N at lyris.investorsedge.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 14:43:04 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:43:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > > Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've > > Jim, why are you trying so hard to make a complete fool out of yourself, > in a public forum? > > A chemical laser needs active optics to track your remote target. What do > you think that optics is made from, unobtainium? Do you understand basic > laws of optics? I recommend purchasing a 15 W laser (and a pair of > matching protection goggles), and then use it to ignite a match from a > close distance, and then over a few km, preferably during summer in your > native Texas. You could target the beam towards a projection wall, and > watch it with a pair of binoculars. It will be quite instructive. The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, 100%, reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. I have a half dozen lasers, thank you very much. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 14:50:23 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:50:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Spirit, Blood, and Treasure The American cost of battle in the 21st century D. Vandegriff, ed. ISBN 0-89141-735-4 "Minimal Force: The mark of a skilled warrior" John Poole pp. 107 The particular principle that is behind it is called, 'principium inculpatae tutelae' -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 16:58:33 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:58:33 -0700 Subject: Job satisfaction and security clearances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0400 7/24/01, Faustine wrote: >Tim wrote: > >>Likewise, I know of even some Cypherpunks who have left their >>employers for ideological reasons. And if some have _left_ jobs, the >>effects are likely greater on the _recruiting_ side (where the costs >>of a decision are much less). > >Absolutely. More than that, I try to never take a job unless I'd be willing >to do it for free. All free-market principles aside, if you're just in it >for the paycheck, what's the point? I'd rather do something I love that's >meaningful to me than just make a pile. Even better not to have to choose >at all. (Not there yet, so #1 it is...) I liked, even greatly liked, some aspects of my job in the 70s and 80s, but there is no way I would have done it for "free." I was getting up at the crack of dawn, arriving by 8 or earlier every morning, working more or less continuously until 6 each night, often working on Saturdays, sometimes working on Sundays, to do what my bosses told me needed doing. While I could often innovate, the broad outlines of my "interests" were set by management. I believe this is mostly the case in 99% of all work environments, even ones "loved" by the workers. Very few jobs are of the form "Do what turns you on." What most people think of as "loving" the job is really just the result of adapting their own goals to that of the organization. It works for dogs, who also "love" their jobs, so why not for humans? And working "for free," when the employer is deriving value (presumably), is a losing proposition for multiple reasons. >This won't be too interesting to all the venerable greybeards out there, >but you'd be surprised what kind of work you can end up with by taking an >unpaid volunteer internship first. If there aren't any available, find >someone to talk to, create a work plan and propose one yourself. Only a nitwit works for free. > If you can >scrape by, trading your free labor for experience isn't always a bad >bargain...it's worked for me more than once, and I sometimes I eventually >ended up on the payroll. News flash: some of us were on the payroll from Day One. I have never worked a minute of "free labor," not counting helping friends move their stuff, and not counting the thousands, nay, tens of thousands, of hours I have spend on lists like this one. >Has anyone ever been in the position of turning down work because you >didn't want to apply for clearance? I seem to remember some people here >saying they already have it, was it a hard decision for you? I don't really >have a problem with the idea of facing a background check (though I don't >imagine anyone looks forward to it), it's the pre-publication review board >requirement that bothers me. If I had little history, I'd have no problem applying for a "clearance." Even now, if they wanted me to apply to apply for a clearance, I'd say "Yeah, right, whatever. Hand me the forms!" and then let the surprise be theirs. Would I let them in my house to look around? Of course not. Could they ask questions of my neighbors? Whatever, as I have no control over my neighbors (except to tell them absolutely nothing about my life). Could they check my Internet past? Presumably. Which is why I'd laugh if they said they wanted me to get a security clearance. (I've been in meetings on topics I _discovered_ where I was excluded from part of the meeting. In Washington in 1979, for example, where I outlined to DARPA, NRL, CIA, and NRO a system for knocking out satellites with particle beam weapons. I gave the kickoff talk, outlined the set of calculations, but was excluded from the afternoon classified sessions. No skin off my nose.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 17:15:35 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:15:35 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: Vengeance Against Adobe) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Dildo AI wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > Have faith. I think that you can have > > both in a manner analogous to the > > Robert Heinlein quote: > > > > "It may be better to be a live jackal > > then a dead lion, but it is better still > > to be a live lion. And usually easier." > > But Lions are primary hunters, scavengers, > and also eat each others young. Jimbo, you ignorant slut, the quote was offered metaphorically. "Metaphorical--not literal; figurative." Interestingly enough, the tendency to treat metaphors literally is one of the defining characteristics of schizophrenia. S a n d y /| |/ \ / \ \ / \ \ / \ \ /_______\/ | | | | | o | | | //// | | | ||||| | | | (.)~(x) | | | | O | | | | (_=_) | | | |_| | | | | | |WHERE IS | | | DILDO? | | |_________|/ From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 17:52:31 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:52:31 -0700 Subject: A Study into the Use of Laser Retroreflectors on a Small Satellite - M.Unwin In-Reply-To: <3B5E051E.D6FA2A6C@ssz.com> References: <3B5E051E.D6FA2A6C@ssz.com> Message-ID: At 6:30 PM -0500 7/24/01, Jim Choate wrote: >And these are reasonably low power lasers... > >http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/IJSSE/issue1/unwin/unwin.html > >The simple fact is that the thermodynamic impact of a laser beam that is >several feet across and emitting more photons than the surface of the sun >will not be easy to reflect unless immense cooling is taken. Cost/weight >factors alone argue it in the negative. "More photons than the surface of the sun" for HOW LONG? A minute? A second? A millisecond? A microsecond? You confuse fluence with flux, a classic mistake. (A pulse "brighter than the sun" but lasting only milliseconds will have far less heating effect than other flux level pulses lasting longer. Calculations matter. And, yes, I used to do these calculations when I was refuting Kosta Tsipis' calculations of the late 70s. Fluence matters.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 24 14:54:08 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe Message-ID: Tim wrote: >Likewise, I know of even some Cypherpunks who have left their >employers for ideological reasons. And if some have _left_ jobs, the >effects are likely greater on the _recruiting_ side (where the costs >of a decision are much less). Absolutely. More than that, I try to never take a job unless I'd be willing to do it for free. All free-market principles aside, if you're just in it for the paycheck, what's the point? I'd rather do something I love that's meaningful to me than just make a pile. Even better not to have to choose at all. (Not there yet, so #1 it is...) This won't be too interesting to all the venerable greybeards out there, but you'd be surprised what kind of work you can end up with by taking an unpaid volunteer internship first. If there aren't any available, find someone to talk to, create a work plan and propose one yourself. If you can scrape by, trading your free labor for experience isn't always a bad bargain...it's worked for me more than once, and I sometimes I eventually ended up on the payroll. And I know I never would have got where I am without building up my resume that way. Also, even if you find yourself unemployed or stuck in a 9 to 5 rut, sitting in on college classes to gain skills (programming, networking, higher math etc.) gets you experience that'll move you toward doing more of what you want. Most professors aren't too uptight about letting you sit in for free, it's probably a refreshing change to teach somebody who's there because they want to be. That's my two cents, anyway... Has anyone ever been in the position of turning down work because you didn't want to apply for clearance? I seem to remember some people here saying they already have it, was it a hard decision for you? I don't really have a problem with the idea of facing a background check (though I don't imagine anyone looks forward to it), it's the pre-publication review board requirement that bothers me. ~Faustine. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 15:02:03 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:02:03 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44518@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found OFFASSLT.XLS.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: OFFASSLT", was sent from Christopher Mitchell and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Tue Jul 24 18:21:05 2001 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:21:05 -0700 Subject: problem no. 1 Message-ID: <82a32e300270d9228ec0e3f7c9d60706@melontraffickers.com> Subcommander Bob pontificated: >At 12:20 AM 7/18/01 -0700, A. Melon wrote: >>Problem number one is that the mail from a terrorist group will not be >>labeled as such. I highly doubt you're going to find >>"BinLaden036 at yahoo.com". That means that using Carnivore as a set >>wiretap >>will be difficult. It may happen that the FBI only knows that >>somewhere on >>a network, there may be a terrorist. >Problem number one is folks like you who accept the state >denigration 'terrorist'without thinking. Subcommander Bob, You might get promoted to full commander if you'd learn to attribute quotes properly. The quote you attributed to me was excerpted from a newsletter written by Joe Burns, Ph.D. If you'd like to relate your wisdom to him, his contact information can be found at: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/ . My view is that BS like Burns is proposing precipitates the things he's whining about. From pzakas at toucancapital.com Tue Jul 24 15:26:44 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:26:44 -0400 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the newchotian philosophy: reductio ad absurdum. phillip > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 5:50 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: RE: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self > defence > > > > > Spirit, Blood, and Treasure > The American cost of battle in the 21st century > D. Vandegriff, ed. > ISBN 0-89141-735-4 > > "Minimal Force: The mark of a skilled warrior" > John Poole > pp. 107 > > The particular principle that is behind it is called, > > 'principium inculpatae tutelae' > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: > God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. > > B.A. Behrend > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 16:30:28 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:30:28 -0500 Subject: Sam's Laser FAQ - Laser Safety Message-ID: <3B5E0514.DFDD140B@ssz.com> Note comparison with sun, mirror, yeah, right... http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersaf.htm#safcils -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 16:30:38 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:30:38 -0500 Subject: A Study into the Use of Laser Retroreflectors on a Small Satellite - M.Unwin Message-ID: <3B5E051E.D6FA2A6C@ssz.com> And these are reasonably low power lasers... http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/IJSSE/issue1/unwin/unwin.html The simple fact is that the thermodynamic impact of a laser beam that is several feet across and emitting more photons than the surface of the sun will not be easy to reflect unless immense cooling is taken. Cost/weight factors alone argue it in the negative. Remember, that laser is hotter than the surface of the sun area for area. You'll need cooling systems comparible to the aircraft carrying the laser (consider the cooling of the main or final steering mirror alone in aircraft weight). Even the finest mirrors will not stand up to that uncooled, and even then not for long. Consider the expansive impact on the cryogenic fuel components. How much are they over-rated? -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 18:40:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:40:34 -0700 Subject: FBI not as incompetent as recent reports say Message-ID: Wen Ho Lee, Robert Hanssen, screwed-up lab tests, failure to detect Aldrich Ames, missing handguns, Waco, Ruby Ridge...the portrait of a dysfunctional agency, right? Far from it, from what I can see. Some of the examples are marginally silly, some are due to pressures from bureaucrats, some are things which virtually no organization on earth could have detected. I'm not a particular friend of the FBI, as the Seattle and Portland offices will probably acknowledge, but I seen no particular _decline_ in quality such as the article Matt Gaylor posted suggests. The spotlight is much brighter today, there are many more reporting outlets. And the Net magnifies conspiracy theories. (I believe Waco was mishandled badly--the preacher should have just been picked up by the local Sheriff or arrested on one of his many trips into town or walks along his fence. And I believe Ruby Ridge was an example of a barricade situation which didn' t need to happen. The "crime" of selling a long gun with a barrel one quarter of an inch too short was both a "set up" (to induce cooperation by Randy Weaver) and shouldn't have been a crime in the first place. These are mistakes, not evidence of a Bureau that has become incompetent or malevolent.) The Wen Ho Lee case is much more mysterious. Maybe he _was_ a Chinese spy...certainly China is an emerging superpower with the willingness to recruit spies. We do it, the Russians do it, the French and Germans do it, why not the Chinese? What about missing weapons? Well, large organizations lose all kinds of things. Including guns. Big deal. Hanssen? The Sovs knew that recruiting agents within the FBI's counter-spy division was the equivalent of recruiting agents at Los Alamos in the 1940s. Did the FBI miss some warning signs? Probably. Did Jim Bamford miss some warning signs? Yep. (Bamford was a friend of Hanssen's.) How about the bad lab results? Sure. Shit happens. But, all in all, I see no particular evidence that the FBI is in a state of moral or professional collapse. I think I'd rather have been working for Louis Freeh these past 10 years than a weirdo like J. Edgar Hoover and his queen Tolson. (I had and still have profound disagreement with Freeh and Jim Kellstrom (spelling? I used to know his name, but it escapes me right now) over things like Clipper, key escrow, and no knock raids, but I thought they were competent, professional, and intelligent adversaries. They never knew who I was, obviously, but we were in the same competency league. In my opinion, of course.) Thinking of the FBI as Keystone Kops is dangerous, which is why I am writing this note. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From alan at clueserver.org Tue Jul 24 18:40:52 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:40:52 -0700 Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723151348.03e0c430@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723151348.03e0c430@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20010725035450.A15C36E42@clueserver.org> On Monday 23 July 2001 15:43, Steve Schear wrote: > "What's the difference between the Russian Constitution and the American > Constitution? They both guarantee freedom of speech, but the U.S. > Constitution also guarantees freedom after the words are uttered." > > Dmitry Perevozhkin, "Anecdotes about Putin" "The constitution may have its problems, but it is better than what we have now." - Unknown From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 16:42:12 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:42:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Re: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18 Come join the Plan 9 party...(anybody got 16-bit ISA EIDE Controllers for sale? I've got two boxes I'll donate to the cause. One process, one file. I just can't find the #!*-]#@ controllers local). The PC-104 format is something I highly recommend if you want something specific like this. In particular, http://www.emjembedded.com 1-800-548-2319 Slap it in a NEMA box and you're a happy camper. It's one of the reasons I used 'small world networks' for my "Igor" remailer (Perl on Plan 9). In passing, if anyone is in Austin Thu. nite there is a key signing party at the Austin Linux Group, http://austinlug.org On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 gbroiles at speakeasy.org wrote: > Several years ago, there was discussion on the list about creating headless > or throwaway remailers (likely hidden in some institution where they could > get power and net access for a long time until they were discovered)- I > didn't spend a lot of time thinking about that, because I thought that the > necessary Ethernet (or other network) connection which would be made > between the hidden machine and the host network would make it easy enough > to detect and disable that it wasn't a productive direction for > exploration. (There are also any number of legal issues related to > trespass, unauthorized network use, etc., which may apply.) > > However, that limitation may be withering away, with the spread of 802.11b > (or similar) wireless networks - the attached email describes a > Seattle-area system apparently set up by Microsoft in a shopping mall > providing free network access to people within the reach of its radio units. > > An old laptop, a solar panel, some auxiliary batteries, and an 802.11 > network card might be able to stay > online for a long, long time in that sort of environment. > > This also sounds like a good way to get casual, anonymous network access to > upload or download email - once upon a time, bad people who wanted to send > forbidden emails or browse hidden sites did that by going to public > terminals in libraries or web cafes or [...] - now perhaps they'll do that > at Starbucks or the mall, either for free or having paid cash for > short-term access via 802.11b wireless. > > And, if you're the sort that's worried about permission, etc., the nice > thing is that these networks are explicitly intended for the use of guests > on the premises, so at least the first level of concerns about trespass or > unauthorized use are addressed. > > These days, remailers aren't as exciting as they once were - perhaps the > next important tools are going to be Freenet or Mojo Nation nodes - but the > combination of wireless access plus anonymous access provides an > interesting opportunity for network participants which are physically > within a jurisdiction yet unavailable for punishment. > > >To: seasigi-list at eskimo.com > >Cc: decentralization at yahoogroups.com > >From: Todd Boyle > >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:24:14 +0200 > >Subject: [decentralization] Free wireless access at Crossroads > > > >Somehow I view this with the same sense of foreboding as the > >spread of two different species of africanized honeybees. > > > >In business school we were taught that the incumbent in a > >market generally wants to wait for upstarts to expend their > >capital to deploy in specific places then, go to those > >places and compete. Drawing on billions of reserves > >from product X, the larger vendor can give away product Y > >for free. > > > >Todd > > > > > > > >From: "Michael Codanti" > >To: , > >Subject: Crossroads Mall in Bellevue > >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:36:13 -0700 > >Organization: CIVIS Consulting > > > >I just thought I would drop a note to the lists about the Crossroads mall in > >Bellevue, WA. This is the one that Micro$oft has installed their test > >MSChoice network. We were on our way back from a trip to Canada and stopped > >in at the mall. Within seconds we were on the ChoiceNet network and > >according to my tests we had a full T1 to ourselves. (1132k down/1250k up) > >They have 4 Cisco APs and coverage appeard to be very good. Their site says > >you have to use the PANS client on Windows 2000, but I was using Windows XP > >RC1 and it ever even asked me to authentidicate... The most interesting > >thing is that the StarBucks in the mall has their MobileStar AP up, but > >signal strength sucked. (I was fairly close to StarBucks) And considering > >that ChoiceNet is free, and MobileStar wants $12/hour I don't know how much > >business they will get... > > > > Michael > From yahammed2001 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 24 18:43:12 2001 From: yahammed2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Yaya Hammed) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:43:12 Subject: Urgent Business Proposal. Message-ID: <200107241742.KAA10141@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 16:44:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:44:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Have faith. I think that you can have both in a manner analogous to the > Robert Heinlein quote: > > "It may be better to be a live jackal then a dead lion, but it is better > still to be a live lion. And usually easier." But Lions are primary hunters, scavengers, and also eat each others young. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 16:47:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:47:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: mirrors and lasers In-Reply-To: <3B5DFF48.BD50EA91@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Are you implying that the wavelength for incident photons changes upon > interaction with the mirror? > > The energy loss at the mirror is lost photons not altered wavelengths. > The lost photons have varying fates. The ones absorbed by the mirror are turned into low-frequency (ie heat) photons. There will always be a 'bell curve' effect. Most won't be effected, some small few will. As the beam intensity goes up so does the total number of 'interactions' betwix the mirror atoms and the beam photons going in and exciting them little babies. At some point they fall in a variety of cascades (again statistically determinable at least) which again convert that intially mono-tonic photon into a variety of poly-tonic ones. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 16:49:17 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:49:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: stegdetect-0.2x (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:39:55 -0400 From: Niels Provos To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: stegdetect-0.2x A new version of stegdetect has been finished. It features improved detection of jsteg and jphide - unix and windows versions. It also detects content hidden by invisible secrets. This release also includes xsteg, a graphical front end to stegdetect that allows for easy manipulation of scanning parameters. You can download UNIX sources or Windows binaries from http://www.outguess.org/download.html Regards, Niels Provos. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 24 15:53:53 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor Message-ID: But there's no real meat here--it's the kind of thing that tells you just enough to make you feel like you know what you're talking about, but doesn't go nearly deep enough to be worth anything. So what's on my summer reading list? The Institute for National Strategic Studies and the National Defense University just came out with a monstrously long (1124 pp.)two-volume compendium of essays: "The Global Century: Globalization and National Security" that explores the implications of globalism in 49 essays from every angle you can think of by a collection of genuine heavy hitters. I think I'll certainly be better off for having invested the time in reading it. here's a link to the pdf: http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/GlobalCentury/globcencont.html and here's the table of contents: Introduction: Policies for a Globalized World Chapter 1 Meeting the Challenges of the Global Century Stephen J. Flanagan Part I. Globalization: Strategic Implications for the United States Chapter 2 Globalization and National Security: A Strategic Agenda Ellen L. Frost Chapter 3 Controlling Chaos: New Axial Strategic Principles Richard L. Kugler Chapter 4 Global Economics and Unsteady Regional Geopolitics Robert E. Hunter Chapter 5 Stability, Stasis, and Change: A Fragmegrating World James N. Rosenau Chapter 6 Military Power and Maritime Forces Seymour J. Deitchman Part II. U.S. National Security Policy: Emerging Priorities Chapter 7 A Global Agenda for Foreign and Defense Policy Jonathan T. Howe Chapter 8 Beyond Global-Regional Thinking Alan K. Henrikson Chapter 9 Foreign Policy in the Information Age David J. Rothkopf Chapter 10 Economics and National Security: The Dangers of Overcommitment David P.H. Denoon Chapter 11 Toward Alliance Reform Ronald D. Asmus Chapter 12 The Globalization of Energy Markets Martha Caldwell Harris Chapter 13 Dealing with Rogue States Kori N. Schake and Justin P. Bernier Chapter 14 Deterrence, Intervention, and Weapons of Mass Destruction William Miller Chapter 15 Peace Operations: Political?Military Coordination Michael J. Dziedzic Chapter 16 Export Controls: A Clash of Imperatives Charles B. Shotwell Part III. Military Power: The Challenges Ahead Chapter 17 Future U.S. Defense Strategy Richard L. Kugler Chapter 18 The Military in a New Era: Living with Complexity Anthony H. Cordesman Chapter 19 Transforming the Armed Forces: An Agenda for Change Paul K. Davis Chapter 20 The Navy and the New Strategic Environment Bradd C. Hayes Chapter 21 Security from the Oceans Sam J. Tangredi Chapter 22 Influencing Events Ashore Harlan K. Ullman Chapter 23 Formative and Operative Engagement Stephen Benson Chapter 24 The Navy and Globalization: Convergence of the Twain? Gwyn Prins Chapter 25 The Coast Guard: Past Catalyst, Future Tool Timothy L. Terriberry and Scott C. Truver Chapter 26 The Corporate Experience: Lessons for the Military Solveig Spielmann Volume II Introduction: Dealing with Diverse Trends Part IV. Global Trends: Unity or Fragmentation? Chapter 27 Alliances and Alignments in a Globalizing World Laurence Martin Chapter 28 The Net: Power and Policy in the 21st Century Leslie David Simon Chapter 29 Corporations in the World Economy: Dynamic Innovation Theodore Roosevelt Malloch Chapter 30 Developing Countries: Winners or Losers? Carol Lancaster Chapter 31 Religion and Culture: Human Dimensions of Globalization Douglas M. Johnston Chapter 32 Ideas Matter: A Diversity of Foreign Policies Esther A. Bacon and Colleen M. Herrmann Chapter 33 Facing Down the Global Village: The Media Impact Samuel Feist Chapter 34 Oil Resources: Markets, Politics, and Policies Patrick L. Clawson Chapter 35 The Sinister Underbelly: Organized Crime and Terrorism Kimberley L. Thachuk Chapter 36 International Law and Institutions: A Post-Westphalian Landscape Charles B. Shotwell Chapter 37 Proliferation of Advanced Weaponry: Threat to Stability William W. Keller and Janne E. Nolan Chapter 38 Global Networks and Security: How Dark Is the Dark Side? Martin C. Libicki Part V. Regional Trends: Promise or Peril? Chapter 39 The European Quest for Unity Richard L. Kugler Chapter 40 Russia and Its Neighbors: Integration or Disintegration? F. Stephen Larrabee Chapter 41 Latin American Economies: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Moisis Namm and Carlos Lozada Chapter 42 Latin America: Emerging Challenges Luis Bitencourt Chapter 43 The Arab World: Economic Progress and Struggle Kathleen Ridolfo Chapter 44 The Persian Gulf: Security, Politics, and Order Shahram Chubin Chapter 45 Asian Economies: The Dynamics of Progress Richard P. Cronin Chapter 46 Asia-Pacific Security Relations: Changes Ahead Thomas W. Robinson Chapter 47 Africa: Troubled Continent in a Globalizing World P. Frangois Hugo Chapter 48 The Balkans: Failing States and Ethnic Wars Laura Rozen Chapter 49 The Canadian Role in Human Security Brooke A. Smith-Windsor From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Tue Jul 24 16:12:19 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange, #435 Message-ID: <20010724231219.8CE3E24F4C@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #435 (July 24, 2001) ______________________________________________________ Your Membership Daily Exchange >>>>>>>>>>> Issue #435 <> 07-24-01 <<<<<<<<<<<< Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________ Removal/Unsubscribe instructions are included at the bottom for members who do not wish to receive additional issues of this publication. ______________________________________________________ You are a member in at least one of these programs - You should be in them all! http://www.BannersGoMLM.com http://www.ProfitBanners.com http://www.CashPromotions.com http://www.MySiteInc.com http://www.TimsHomeTownStories.com http://www.FreeLinksNetwork.com http://www.MyShoppingPlace.com http://www.BannerCo-op.com http://www.PutPEEL.com http://www.PutPEEL.net http://www.SELLinternetACCESS.com http://www.Be-Your-Own-ISP.com http://www.SeventhPower.com ______________________________________________________ Today's Special Announcement: I'll Put Your Ad on 2,000 Sites FREE! Free This Week Only, Just For Our Subscribers! Learn the secrets of marketing online on this global FREE teleseminar. Limited lines available, only three time slots available... reserve today. You will not be disappointed! I'll be your personal host. We operate several sites, all successful. I'll teach you what to do and how to do it! http://bannerco-op.com/freeseminar/ezine Michael T. Glaspie - Founder ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ >> Ideas, Tips, & Information P. Steeves: Software for pop-ups and anti-virus >> Q & A QUESTIONS: - Are forms possible in a cookie cutter website? ANSWERS: - html code for simple application/join form? L. 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Submit your ideas, tips and information to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com From bensons at zero.neohaven.net Tue Jul 24 17:20:21 2001 From: bensons at zero.neohaven.net (Benson Schliesser) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:20:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect the LEAs > >>to enforce all laws that are on the books. > >> > >> If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the > >>legislature and the Executive branch. > > > > > >And the Jewish population of Europe during WW2 had no right to complain > >about the Nazi soldiers just doing their job, right... > > If one can't distinguish between the enforcement of laws of > questionable constitutional validity (yes, *questionable*) and > genocide, then one should probably load the bong again, watch cartoons > on TV and stay far, far away from the ballot box. The question has nothing to do with the Constitution of the United States--it has to do with whether or not an individual is justified in acting in the name of "just doing my job" or "just following orders". I would suggest that LEAs are definitely at fault for executing and enforcing laws that are unjust. (I in no way intend to imply that the blame should be steered away from the originators, who are, as you point out, the legislature and executive branch. Nor am I making a recommendation as to what determines the fabric of "justice", although that would be an interesting topic for dicsussion.) Your assumption that the U.S. Constitution and system of Elections have anything to do with granting a mandate of rule to the law enforcement community is flawed. They don't even, for what it matters, grant a true mandate to the rest of the U.S. government anymore, with occasional exception. --bensons From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 16:40:55 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:40:55 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44522@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found ORD carlos del camp6o.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: ORD carlos del camp6o", was sent from Direccion de Educacion Municipal Santiago and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From bpayne37 at home.com Tue Jul 24 18:57:37 2001 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:57:37 -0600 Subject: judge downes rules Message-ID: <3B5E2791.BC135ECE@home.com> Instead of remanding, Downes rules. This means that Downes is going with the feds. We need some help guys. Please think some help up. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ We are working on this. So are they. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 17:06:17 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:06:17 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44524@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Hi Juniper.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Hi Juniper", was sent from Jan Lundberg and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From block at MessageREACH.com Tue Jul 24 13:18:06 2001 From: block at MessageREACH.com (MessageREACH Customer Service) Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:18:06 -0000 Subject: Future email from MessageREACH Message-ID: <20010724201806.1822.qmail@xmr3.com> The address: cypherpunks at toad.com will be blocked by the end of the day, and will no longer receive email sent from: TechTarget.com via the MessageREACH system. This change was made at the request of: david.g.bennett at worldnet.att.net If you believe that this change was made in error, please contact MessageREACH customer service at CustomerService at MessageREACH.com Thank you, MessageREACH From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Jul 24 17:18:15 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:18:15 -0400 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:43:23 gbroiles wrote: > > >This also sounds like a good way to get casual, anonymous network access to >upload or download email - once upon a time, bad people who wanted to send >forbidden emails or browse hidden sites did that by going to public >terminals in libraries or web cafes or [...] - now perhaps they'll do that >at Starbucks or the mall, either for free or having paid cash for >short-term access via 802.11b wireless. > One of the interesting ideas, though only relevant for the downtown areas fo big cities, is to use the zoning regulations to get 802.11b access included as one of the "public improvements" required in return for an easement allowing a taller (any other violation of the zoning code would work as well) than would otherwise be allowed. This is to say nothing of access points set up by individuals allowing broadband access to others, there are already 2 of those in my neighborhood. Jim Windle Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 20:19:09 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:19:09 -0700 Subject: Adobe, EFF Call for Dmitry Release In-Reply-To: <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> References: <200107232344.TAA16445@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <20010723172526.A39120@neutraldomain.org> <20010724102036.C18402@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 10:20 AM -0400 7/24/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Really? Dmitri gets to go home? Tell that to the USAtty's office, >which indicated to me yesterday they weren't inclined to drop charges. >While you're at it, learn a little about criminal law. The comment I made was based on a mis-reading. I *thought* that the short bit I read indicated that when adobe pull the complaint, the charges were dropped. > >-Declan > > >On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:59:01AM -0700, Petro wrote: >> >> Not really. It's a victory for Dimitri, because he gets to go >> home, but the DMCA is still in effect, and until there are rulings >> from the courts, there will still be people harassed and arrested. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 18:22:06 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:22:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A Study into the Use of Laser Retroreflectors on a Small Satellite - M.Unwin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > "More photons than the surface of the sun" for HOW LONG? Continous. If you look at the sun constantly a certain number of photons hit a given area of your retina. Stare at a 1 mW laser and an equal or great number strike that same area. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Jul 24 20:24:23 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:24:23 -0700 Subject: Attention to detail lacking Message-ID: <3B5E3BE7.C5584FF@lsil.com> Jim, I think you often don't word things carefully enough. The resulting discussions get pointless in a big hurry. >>> >>>The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) >>>transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is >>>required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, 100%, >>>reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror >>>interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> >>Are you implying that the wavelength for incident photons changes upon >>interaction with the mirror? >> >>The energy loss at the mirror is lost photons not altered wavelengths. >>The lost photons have varying fates. >> You stated that every photon interacts, loses energy and is re-emitted. I think the reflected beam has the same wavelength as the incident beam. Your blurb about absorption and cascades is only true for some fraction of the lost photons that constitute the inefficiency of the mirror. Others have a different fate. Maybe that's what you meant but you did say "every photon." And here's an exchange with Tim : >At 6:30 PM -0500 7/24/01, Jim Choate wrote: >>And these are reasonably low power lasers... >> >>http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/IJSSE/issue1/unwin/unwin.html >> >>The simple fact is that the thermodynamic impact of a laser beam that is >>several feet across and emitting more photons than the surface of the sun >>will not be easy to reflect unless immense cooling is taken. Cost/weight >>factors alone argue it in the negative. > >"More photons than the surface of the sun" for HOW LONG? > >A minute? A second? A millisecond? A microsecond? > >You confuse fluence with flux, a classic mistake. > >(A pulse "brighter than the sun" but lasting only milliseconds will >have far less heating effect than other flux level pulses lasting >longer. Calculations matter. And, yes, I used to do these >calculations when I was refuting Kosta Tsipis' calculations of the >late 70s. Fluence matters.) > >--Tim May > The sun produces shitloads ( check your CRC Handbook for conversions between the shitload and more familiar units ) of power : http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/sol.html says 386 billion billion megawatts If we know the spectral characteristics of the sun ( the black body spectrum perhaps? ) we could come up with a photon count. I'm not sure whether you mean to talk about photon counts and adjust the power and wavelength variables or you really mean to discuss something that operates somewhere between IR and UV. Let's assume the latter. It is after all a LASER. You did say "surface of the sun". To me that means integrate over 4 pi. 3.86E26 W regardless of the radius. I doubt if anyone has made a laser that operates at that power level even for one fs. Let's try the other approach... The power output from the sun is about 1350 W/m^2 as measured here. Maybe that was what you meant as a reference power level. Let's see, 1350 W/m^2 -> 1.35E-3 W/mm^2 so a 1 mW laser with a beam area of .74mm^2 is "as bright as the sun" at least in terms of gross energy density. That disregards spectral effects. Not too tough to be "brighter than the sun". I don't think you could even light a bucket of gasoline 1 m away with it no less knock down a rocket. It's also pretty easy to handle with a basic mirror. I'd say that's a pretty wussy power level for something that needs to melt a rocket in flight. Focussed to a spot that is 1/1000 the area of the parent beam it starts to get interesting but let's see you hold that spot steady from a 747 in turbulence long enough to burn a hole in a nice shiny casing going 8000kph 200km away. So if we're going to discuss physics let's do it with a bit of care. Maybe it will be more interesting. I'm no expert but I'm willing to try. Yawn, Mike From yahammed2001 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 24 20:33:12 2001 From: yahammed2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Yaya Hammed) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:33:12 Subject: Urgent Business Proposal. Message-ID: <200107241843.LAA23299@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Jul 24 20:33:38 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:33:38 -0700 Subject: Kallstrom Message-ID: <3B5E3E12.580F791A@lsil.com> Did an interview for Time "Digital" 2 or 3 years ago. Just threw my copy away. Equated limits on the effectiveness of domestic crypto with speed limits. Pretty much spewed the party line. Had quit to work for a bank. google it : james kallstrom fbi cryptography http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.07.13-98.07.19/msg00018.html From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 20:34:22 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:34:22 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0400 7/24/01, Faustine wrote: > >Has anyone ever been in the position of turning down work because you >didn't want to apply for clearance? I seem to remember some people here Not so much turning it down as making it clear ahead of time that I would. >saying they already have it, was it a hard decision for you? I don't really >have a problem with the idea of facing a background check (though I don't >imagine anyone looks forward to it), it's the pre-publication review board >requirement that bothers me. I won't take a Piss Test for a job. Not for fear of failing, but because I believe it's none of their business what's in there. I hesitate strongly to take jobs that require clearances for much the same reason. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 20:35:21 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:35:21 -0700 Subject: Attention to detail lacking In-Reply-To: <3B5E3BE7.C5584FF@lsil.com> References: <3B5E3BE7.C5584FF@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 8:24 PM -0700 7/24/01, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >You stated that every photon interacts, loses energy and is re-emitted. > >I think the reflected beam has the same wavelength as the incident beam. >Your blurb about absorption and cascades is only true for some fraction >of the lost photons that constitute the inefficiency of the mirror. >Others have a different fate. > >Maybe that's what you meant but you did say "every photon." > > >And here's an exchange with Tim : .... >So if we're going to discuss physics let's do it with a bit of care. >Maybe it will be more interesting. I'm no expert but I'm willing to try. > >Yawn, >Mike Yawn, indeed. Arguing physics with Choate is even worse than arguing math or history or law with him. He has peculiar notions of what energy, mass, reflectance, and a hundred other physics concepts are. Consult the archives for dozens of examples. Photons hitting a surface most definitely do not "lose some energy" and get "re-emitted." There are some very particular configurations that can act as wavelength doublers, but this is a particular, and hard to set up, configuration. Photons hitting a mirror either are re-emitted with the same energy as before or interact via the photoelectric effect and are thermalized (converted to phonons). That colors are preserved in mirrors, absent tints (special absorbers), is a Physics 1 clue that mirrors do not downshift photon energies!. I had a technician who once worked for me who had the same idiosyncratic grasp on physics concepts. Now I don't expect techs to have physics degrees, but I _do_ expect them not to develop their own personal notions of what a "semiconductor" is, or what a "Fermi level" is, and then reason with great confidence from these flawed concepts. My tech used to do just this. He even "corrected" some of the equations in the copy of the book he'd asked to borrow fro me, Andy Grove's "Physics and Technology of Semiconductor Devices." I told Frank, my tech, to knock it off, and to NEVER deface one of my books with his weird notions of how physics ought to work. I think Choate is much like this tech of mine: lacking a solid grounding and overly reliant on his own private notions of what "mass" and "energy" and "group velocity" and so on are. All the best cranks view the world this way. I don't know Choate's educational background, but I would not be at all surprised if he is self-taught and moved into computers out of some technician training school. (Not that college physics is needed. When I was in high school I knew enough about physics and math not to have made some of the boners Choate has come out with.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 20:38:20 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:38:20 -0700 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <20010724222144.29357.qmail@sidereal.kz> References: <3B5DBB75.23A82CAB@lsil.com> <20010724222144.29357.qmail@sidereal.kz> Message-ID: At 10:21 PM +0000 7/24/01, Dr. Evil wrote: >Photoshop? We have the gimp. Illustrator? We have Kontour. These >products are all as good as or better than the competing Adobe >products, and they're all free. I won't argue about Kontour, since I haven't used it yet, but xpdf still doesn't render was well as Acrobat, and there is no *WAY* the Gimp, as good as it is, can compete in Photoshops markets. It may be nice for dinking around with web pages, but when it comes to pantone color and process color work, well, last time I checked, it didn't do 4-color at all, much less "High Color" (6 color process). From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 17:46:26 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:46:26 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4452C@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found gASTOS DE ENVIO.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: gASTOS DE ENVIO", was sent from Calipo and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 24 20:59:26 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:59:26 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: At 10:43 AM -0700 7/24/01, gbroiles at speakeasy.org wrote: >Several years ago, there was discussion on the list about creating headless or throwaway remailers (likely hidden in some institution where they could get power and net access for a long time until they were discovered)- I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about that, because I thought that the necessary Ethernet (or other network) connection which would be made between the hidden machine and the host network would make it easy enough to detect and disable that it wasn't a productive direction for exploration. (There are also any number of legal issues related to trespass, unauthorized network use, etc., which may apply.) > >However, that limitation may be withering away, with the spread of 802.11b (or similar) wireless networks - the attached email describes a Seattle-area system apparently set up by Microsoft in a shopping mall providing free network access to people within the reach of its radio units. > >An old laptop, a solar panel, some auxiliary batteries, and an 802.11 network card might be able to stay >online for a long, long time in that sort of environment. There are several companies making embedded systems boards that use very little power and are capable of running linux. I don't know if any of them are quite low power enough to run off a solar panel yet, but some of the mips/arm designs might be. It would seem to me that if it's a box you don't expect to get back, it might be a better idea to build a special purpose machine--just the motherboard, 802.11 device and a reduced Linux installation running out of flash ram. >And, if you're the sort that's worried about permission, etc., the nice thing is that these networks are explicitly intended for the use of guests on the premises, so at least the first level of concerns about trespass or unauthorized use are addressed. Depending on the area covered, you wouldn't even need to trespass. If it's in a mall area, coverage would probably extend to certain areas of the outside of the building where it might be feasible to mount a small enough box that it wouldn't get noticed. Epoxy your box to the wall next to some other sort of electrical equipment (if the interference won't get in the way) and it will probably remain undiscovered for a while. >These days, remailers aren't as exciting as they once were - perhaps the next important tools are going to be Freenet or Mojo Nation nodes - but the combination of wireless access plus anonymous access provides an interesting opportunity for network participants which are physically within a jurisdiction yet unavailable for punishment. Another interesting possibility is "Public VPNs" (I'm sure someone else has come up with this concept and given it a different name) but use VPN software to establish a connection to a box as described above, and your home IP is lightly masked. It might, given a big enough network, be possible to do some sort of "anonymous packet forwarder" like remailers, only in real time. Well, no. I'm sure it's possible, it'll just take a lot of bandwidth. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 18:07:35 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:07:35 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4452E@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found HANDS.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: HANDS", was sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From declan at well.com Tue Jul 24 18:13:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:13:59 -0400 Subject: The Plan In-Reply-To: <20010724225741.63365.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>; from morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 03:57:41PM -0700 References: <20010724225741.63365.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010724211358.C1955@cluebot.com> This is true, of course. It's true in much the same way that a GOP administration/Congress is good for lefty groups in the sense that they can raise more money, and the converse when the Dems are in charge. Setup? Not a chance. The Feds don't like test cases unless they can win them. I wrote what I think is an interesting piece that'll be up on Wired tomorrow about what Congress thinks of the DMCA. Hint: They like it, and aren't gonna change it. -Declan On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 03:57:41PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote: > Tasteless as it may sound (but this is home of cypherpranks anyway), it seems > that Sklyarov's arrest advanced the anti-DMCA case more than anything else. > > And it will continue to advance it as long he remains in jail. > > Almost as if the whole thing was a clever setup. And it works. If feds release > him they will prove that they are a corporate police in very clear terms. If > they do not release him DMCA is facing a very real challenge. > > So I'd like to congratulate to whoever has masterminded this in Adobe. > Excellent job. And when DMCA collapses the author should get public > recognition. > > - > > > ===== > end > (of original message) > > Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Tue Jul 24 19:44:43 2001 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:44:43 -0500 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe Message-ID: <95579af11c0481084aff0b3b180ebd2d@remailer.xganon.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" > My comments were about Adobe's _recruiting_ efforts. I expect > lingering effects of this episode to affect their ability to recruit. That's gonna suck for them ..oh, wait, I forgot.. the economy sucks and nobody's hiring anyways! From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Jul 24 22:05:32 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:05:32 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010723080804.0098aba0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3B5B02F6.25872.1BD57A@localhost> Message-ID: <3B5DF12C.4018.366EC3@localhost> -- > > > Yes, it does work in the world of building reputations > > > associated with (anonymous or claimed-not-anonymous) keys, but > > > not when you need meatspace credit --give the meat named "Prof > > > Joe" tenure credit for work X. James A. Donald: > > It is common for real world authors to publish under nom de > > plumes. Adding a key to a nom de plume gives added advantages to > > the nom de plume. David Honig wrote: > A nom de plume which cannot be revealed to the folks one wants > credit from (because you go to meatspace jail when the association > is leaked) is useless for getting credit in meatspace. Yes the nym > gets credit; but it doesn't help you get tenure, or a raise, or > invitations to speak. The advantage of a nom de plume is that it can be selectively revealed, revealed to some people and not others, or revealed to everyone at a later date depending on how things turned out. Adding a public key to a nom de plume improves that advantage, The same is true of a nom de guerre, only even more so. To inopportunely reveal a nom de guerre is likely to be fatal. To be unable ot prove a nom de guerre may well result in the loss an personal gains resulting from victory. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG mkF3vClVh1ADZdWMKCRDtSJboD5GxB++yr8Wh4f1 4hd66T9IGIrYcT9RAm+JsBR1bEipLxfgpibdVoOpv From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 24 22:05:32 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:05:32 -0700 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:45 PM -0500 7/24/01, Jim Choate wrote: >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >> You stated that every photon interacts, loses energy and is re-emitted. > >Sure, it has it's momentum changed. Think about it. The photon comes in >from one direction and is absorbed/interacts with the atoms. As a result >they get re-emitted (reflected) in the exact opposite direction. The point >is the photons that get re-emitted ARE NOT THE SAME PHOTONS THAT WERE >ABSORBED. > >You can't do that without losing something. photons only have one thing, >energy as represented in their wavelength. The beam that gets re-emitted >is less energetic than the beam that came in. Even if it does have the >same phase and time coherence as the incident one. 2nd law of >thermodynamics. > >You're confusing the intermediate vector boson as the carrier of >information with the information itself. You're gibbering about things you have no clue about. Babbling about "the intermediate vector boson" when you clearly don't even understand high school physics is especially bizarre. Photons are _quanta_, as in quantum theory. Their energy is given by the usual E = hv (v is nu, frequency). They aren't "less energetic" when they scatter (i.e., are reflected). A photon fired at a surface will scatter/reflect with precisely the energy it had when it hit the surface, unless it is absorbed (in which case it knocks electrons out of atoms...the photoelectric effect in a vacuum, thermalized in ordinary solids). This is the essence of Planck's and Einstein's work in the first decade of the 20th century. Photons don't lose a "little" bit of their energy. They either get completely absorbed, aka the photoelectric effect, or they hold _all_ of their energy. Ironically, the key experiment was done with photons of varying energies striking (scattering) off of a metal plate. The photoelectric effect established that a photon only gives up its energy when it is energetic enough to knock an electric out of a orbital. Photons do not "give up some energy" except in this all or nothing way. The only way photons change their (apparent) energy is through Doppler shift, which is really a frame of reference situation. Red shift, for example. (Ditto the Mossbauer Effect, where gamma photons alter energies slightly.) Whether a photon moving through a medium is the "same" photon or a series of absorbed/emitted photons is an interesting topic to discuss. But the one thing we _know_ is that such photons do not "lose energy" in the way you describe. If they did, then blue light would turn into red light. It doesn't. A blue photon is a blue photon is a blue photon. It's not your ignorance of high school physics (or high school math, or high school history, etc.) that's annoying, it's your oracular pronouncements of flawed theory. This is why people call you a crank. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 20:11:35 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:11:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One article expressing one persons opinions 49 articles expressing 49 peoples opinions. On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > But there's no real meat here--it's the kind of thing that tells you just > enough to make you feel like you know what you're talking about, but > doesn't go nearly deep enough to be worth anything. > > So what's on my summer reading list? The Institute for National Strategic > Studies and the National Defense University just came out with a > monstrously long (1124 pp.)two-volume compendium of essays: "The Global > Century: Globalization and National Security" that explores the > implications of globalism in 49 essays from every angle you can think of by > a collection of genuine heavy hitters. I think I'll certainly be better off > for having invested the time in reading it. > > here's a link to the pdf: > > http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/GlobalCentury/globcencont.html > > and here's the table of contents: > > > Introduction: Policies for a Globalized World > Chapter 1 > Meeting the Challenges of the Global Century > Stephen J. Flanagan > Part I. Globalization: Strategic Implications for the United States > Chapter 2 > Globalization and National Security: A Strategic Agenda > Ellen L. Frost > Chapter 3 > Controlling Chaos: New Axial Strategic Principles > Richard L. Kugler > Chapter 4 > Global Economics and Unsteady Regional Geopolitics > Robert E. Hunter > Chapter 5 > Stability, Stasis, and Change: A Fragmegrating World > James N. Rosenau > Chapter 6 > Military Power and Maritime Forces > Seymour J. Deitchman > Part II. U.S. National Security Policy: Emerging Priorities > > Chapter 7 > A Global Agenda for Foreign and Defense Policy > Jonathan T. Howe > Chapter 8 > Beyond Global-Regional Thinking > Alan K. Henrikson > Chapter 9 > Foreign Policy in the Information Age > David J. Rothkopf > Chapter 10 > Economics and National Security: The Dangers of Overcommitment > David P.H. Denoon > Chapter 11 > Toward Alliance Reform > Ronald D. Asmus > Chapter 12 > The Globalization of Energy Markets > Martha Caldwell Harris > Chapter 13 > Dealing with Rogue States > Kori N. Schake and Justin P. Bernier > Chapter 14 > Deterrence, Intervention, and Weapons of Mass Destruction > William Miller > Chapter 15 > Peace Operations: Political?Military Coordination > Michael J. Dziedzic > Chapter 16 > Export Controls: A Clash of Imperatives > Charles B. Shotwell > Part III. Military Power: The Challenges Ahead > Chapter 17 > Future U.S. Defense Strategy > Richard L. Kugler > Chapter 18 > The Military in a New Era: Living with Complexity > Anthony H. Cordesman > Chapter 19 > Transforming the Armed Forces: An Agenda for Change > Paul K. Davis > Chapter 20 > The Navy and the New Strategic Environment > Bradd C. Hayes > Chapter 21 > Security from the Oceans > Sam J. Tangredi > Chapter 22 > Influencing Events Ashore > Harlan K. Ullman > Chapter 23 > Formative and Operative Engagement > Stephen Benson > Chapter 24 > The Navy and Globalization: Convergence of the Twain? > Gwyn Prins > Chapter 25 > The Coast Guard: Past Catalyst, Future Tool > Timothy L. Terriberry and Scott C. Truver > Chapter 26 > The Corporate Experience: Lessons for the Military > Solveig Spielmann > Volume II > Introduction: Dealing with Diverse Trends > Part IV. Global Trends: Unity or Fragmentation? > Chapter 27 > Alliances and Alignments in a Globalizing World > Laurence Martin > Chapter 28 > The Net: Power and Policy in the 21st Century > Leslie David Simon > Chapter 29 > Corporations in the World Economy: Dynamic Innovation > Theodore Roosevelt Malloch > Chapter 30 > Developing Countries: Winners or Losers? > Carol Lancaster > Chapter 31 > Religion and Culture: Human Dimensions of Globalization > Douglas M. Johnston > Chapter 32 > Ideas Matter: A Diversity of Foreign Policies > Esther A. Bacon and Colleen M. Herrmann > Chapter 33 > Facing Down the Global Village: The Media Impact > Samuel Feist > Chapter 34 > Oil Resources: Markets, Politics, and Policies > Patrick L. Clawson > Chapter 35 > The Sinister Underbelly: Organized Crime and Terrorism > Kimberley L. Thachuk > Chapter 36 > International Law and Institutions: A Post-Westphalian Landscape > Charles B. Shotwell > Chapter 37 > Proliferation of Advanced Weaponry: Threat to Stability > William W. Keller and Janne E. Nolan > Chapter 38 > Global Networks and Security: How Dark Is the Dark Side? > Martin C. Libicki > Part V. Regional Trends: Promise or Peril? > Chapter 39 > The European Quest for Unity > Richard L. Kugler > Chapter 40 > Russia and Its Neighbors: Integration or Disintegration? > F. Stephen Larrabee > Chapter 41 > Latin American Economies: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly > Moisis Namm and Carlos Lozada > Chapter 42 > Latin America: Emerging Challenges > Luis Bitencourt > Chapter 43 > The Arab World: Economic Progress and Struggle > Kathleen Ridolfo > Chapter 44 > The Persian Gulf: Security, Politics, and Order > Shahram Chubin > Chapter 45 > Asian Economies: The Dynamics of Progress > Richard P. Cronin > Chapter 46 > Asia-Pacific Security Relations: Changes Ahead > Thomas W. Robinson > Chapter 47 > Africa: Troubled Continent in a Globalizing World > P. Frangois Hugo > Chapter 48 > The Balkans: Failing States and Ethnic Wars > Laura Rozen > Chapter 49 > The Canadian Role in Human Security > Brooke A. Smith-Windsor > -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Tue Jul 24 20:12:20 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:12:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ohio man convicted for "obscene" stories in his private journal In-Reply-To: <20010725035450.A15C36E42@clueserver.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Alan wrote: > "The constitution may have its problems, but it is better than what we have > now." - Unknown That's *Classic*! -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From drevil at sidereal.kz Tue Jul 24 15:21:44 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 24 Jul 2001 22:21:44 -0000 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: (message from Tim May on Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:29:36 -0700) References: <3B5DBB75.23A82CAB@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20010724222144.29357.qmail@sidereal.kz> > I know of people who refuse to buy Intel-based machines "on > principle." Some are Sun users, some are Mac users, some think they > are bypassing Intel by using AMD Athlons. Yes, I'm one. AMD all the way. Anyway, it's cheaper and has better performance. > And the anti-Microsoft efforts are legendary. Alternative OSes, Star > Office, etc. If some people will go to these lengths to avoid MS > products, imagine the programmers they are missing out on. (I > understand that there are still tens of thousands who work for MS. > The interesting regime is at the margins, in the five sigmas zone.) Yes, I'm one. Linux or *BSD. It's cheaper and better than Windows. I admit that MS Office is the best office suite around, but I'm doing ok with Star Office and Koffice. Konqueror is a better browser than IE, too. Adobe products are much more replacable than MS products. Acroread? We have xpdf and some others. PS interpreter? We have gs. Photoshop? We have the gimp. Illustrator? We have Kontour. These products are all as good as or better than the competing Adobe products, and they're all free. They can all be modified in any way I need. xpdf and gs can be patched to ignore encryption (although I guess that's a felony now). Now, lets see, what did we need Adobe for again? I can't think of anything! > (This, and fears that Adobe salesmen and engineers may be arrested > for violating _Russian_ laws, e.g., the European laws (I have read > about) that make it a crime to sell a software product which cannot > be backed-up. And if not this law, they may find something else to > arrest and Adobe person for. Trading cards. Adobe escalated the war. > Now Adobe realizes what can of worms they have opened.) I would imagine that Dmitri has the "typical" geeky programmer personality (ok, making very broad stereotypes here), which tends more towards playful than vicious... but what if he doesn't? What if he is vicious, vengeful and irrational? Russia is quite a violent place. Adobe's people in Russia could be in a lot of danger from this. I hope not, because violence is bad and the people to blame are probably a few lawyers and executives and some FBI agents and a lot of legislators, none of whom are in Russia, but people act irrationally sometimes. From declan at well.com Tue Jul 24 19:30:20 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:30:20 -0400 Subject: FBI not as incompetent as recent reports say In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 06:40:34PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010724223020.B4728@cluebot.com> On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 06:40:34PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > (I had and still have profound disagreement with Freeh and Jim > Kellstrom (spelling? I used to know his name, but it escapes me right > now) over things like Clipper, key escrow, and no knock raids, but I Kallstrom, former head of the NYC office, now well-employed in the private sector. -Declan From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 20:45:00 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:45:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Attention to detail lacking In-Reply-To: <3B5E3BE7.C5584FF@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > You stated that every photon interacts, loses energy and is re-emitted. Sure, it has it's momentum changed. Think about it. The photon comes in from one direction and is absorbed/interacts with the atoms. As a result they get re-emitted (reflected) in the exact opposite direction. The point is the photons that get re-emitted ARE NOT THE SAME PHOTONS THAT WERE ABSORBED. You can't do that without losing something. photons only have one thing, energy as represented in their wavelength. The beam that gets re-emitted is less energetic than the beam that came in. Even if it does have the same phase and time coherence as the incident one. 2nd law of thermodynamics. You're confusing the intermediate vector boson as the carrier of information with the information itself. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Jul 24 20:00:55 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: THE INCHOATE LAWYER In-Reply-To: <20010723180731.A8780@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > By my count, we now have three or four people willing in principle to > > either chip in or refund the ~$100 cost. Depending on details (we'd > > require full disclosure, of course), Choate could make up to $300 on this, > > after expenses. > > Make that total $400. I'm willing to do my part to shut Choate up. You're assuming he'll "shut up." I'm not so sure of that. I think that the results, regardless of what they are, will generate plenty of conversation by themselves. Worse, the results will multiply conversations, and not in a good way; some argument will come up, and then the results will come up as a point of credibility. Then it will be back to the same old back and forth about the results and what they "mean." We might as well activate some infinite automata and leave the room for drinks. What's slightly pathetic about all of this is that it says that if only I, too, could gain the disrespect of my peers, maybe I, too, could have someone else pay for me to take the LSAT. Hey, at least that might make my parents happy. They sometimes tell me that maybe I should look into being an IP lawyer. Now there's a way to gain the disrespect of your peers. -David From schear at lvcm.com Tue Jul 24 23:31:55 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:31:55 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010724232047.036f1728@pop3.lvcm.com> >At 1:43 AM +0300 7/24/01, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > > >But I also think the question Choate posed is a valid one: what happens when > >the target is *not* a ballistic missile, but people, equipment and vehicles > >on the ground, normal aircraft, or air-to-air missiles? One would think that > >the lower velocity differentials and expected distance-to-target make aiming > >much easier, and that effective counter-measures would be significantly more > >difficult to erect, considering that such conventional targets have > >properties very different from those of ballistic missiles (e.g. aircraft > >raise questions of aerodynamics and payload efficiency, wearable materials > >with albedos high enough are difficult to come up with, rotation and > >aerodynamic engineering cannot be used to dissipate the heat generated by a > >hit, people/cars/tanks/whathaveyou often need to be difficult to spot using > >aerial and satellite imaging, and so on). > > > >Such weapons capability could be *quite* useful, especially if the 747 can > >be effectively defended against anti-aircraft missiles, and the laser has a > >range and targeting capability on par with anti-ballistic missile > >applications. Hits on critical infrastructure, control over a nation's > >airspace, death-from-above FUD, that sort of thing. > > > > IANALS (laser specialist), but I am given to understand that with >the high energy demands of these types of lasers, and the problems with >getting good energy levels through airborne dust, clouds, etc (and especially >in combat areas where dust and other airborne particles are rather common) >make lasers less than ideal against ground or low flying targets. ========================= From US Pat 5,345,238, Satellite signature suppression shield If a high energy laser (HEL) is being used to attack the shield, the laser must irradiate the cone with an energy above 10 watts per square centimeter normal for more than two minutes continuously to damage the gold coating. Occasional short term hits will do no damage except by lasers with a much higher energy than currently considered practical. Higher laser energy levels will do damage in less time, but the signature suppression levels are low enough, that closed loop tracking of the satellite is impractical at altitudes above 100 km. FIG. 6 shows the time required for vaporization of the metal film over the balloon skin as a function of the aspect angle. Direct irradiation with a 10 W/cm.sup.2 laser beam was used. The dotted line in the figure represents a 10 micron gold film over a 0.5 mm Kapton skin. The solid line represents a 10 micron aluminum film over a 0.5 mm Mylar skin. ========================== So if the exterior of the missile had characteristics similar to the shield above it might deter direct damage from a HEL. I haven't done the path loss calculations but suffice it to say acquiring and maintaining beam lock and delivering several Watts/cm at distances of 100 km is a daunting challenge. Due to Raleigh scattering some pretty big aperture mirrors are needed to keep beam divergence sufficiently small (non-Gaussian optics, for example second order Bessel, could also help but complicate optical design and efficiency.) steve From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Jul 24 20:32:49 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:32:49 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4453C@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found JJ.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: JJ", was sent from Stephen and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Tue Jul 24 20:34:16 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:34:16 -0400 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: Vengeance Against Adobe) Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:15:35 Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >The Dildo AI wrote: > Perhaps instead of offering "Jim Choate" money to take the LSAT, the money should be offered for "Jim Choate" passing a Turing test to be judged by contributors to the fund. Also other prizes could be given for things like figuring out what hardware "Jim Choate" is running on. Just a thought since he doesn't seem likely to take the LSAT. Jim Windle > > > S a n d y > > /| > |/ \ > / \ \ > / \ \ > / \ \ > /_______\/ | > | | | > | o | | > | //// | | > | ||||| | | > | (.)~(x) | | > | | O | | | > | (_=_) | | > | |_| | | > | | | > |WHERE IS | | > | DILDO? | | > |_________|/ > > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From schear at lvcm.com Tue Jul 24 23:38:22 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:38:22 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010724233418.03e64720@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:43 PM 7/24/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > > Maybe. But even mirrors can be burned through by a laser. And then we've > > > > Jim, why are you trying so hard to make a complete fool out of yourself, > > in a public forum? > > > > A chemical laser needs active optics to track your remote target. What do > > you think that optics is made from, unobtainium? Do you understand basic > > laws of optics? I recommend purchasing a 15 W laser (and a pair of > > matching protection goggles), and then use it to ignite a match from a > > close distance, and then over a few km, preferably during summer in your > > native Texas. You could target the beam towards a projection wall, and > > watch it with a pair of binoculars. It will be quite instructive. > >The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) >transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is >required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, 100%, >reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror >interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. The optics used for focusing are probably mirrors, one fully reflective and probably backed by piezo actuators to controllably distort for focus and adjust for atmospheric distortions, the other mostly reflecting (to keep the lasing process going) to "leak" the lethal beam. steve From manfredseibert at yahoo.com Tue Jul 24 23:44:00 2001 From: manfredseibert at yahoo.com (Millennium Shape Up) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:44:00 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107250153.SAA25519@ecotone.toad.com> Do you look in the mirror in the mornings and just wish you could lose those few extra pounds?If you have tried countless diets and weight loss programs that never work, THEN THIS IS FOR YOU! Big or fat, we are all human beings with feelings, and with my help, you can re-establish those confident feelings and feel good about yourself and your body. ************************** You may ask why you should read something on dieting from a complete stranger. Good question, who am I? 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After watching the program work for me, other people around me began to ask me what I did to lose all that weight. I put various people on the same diet program, adjusted the time schedules accordingly and it worked for every one of them. Even my boss, Mr. Billy Griffith, used it. He too lost 45lb. It was his idea I market the program, and so I turned the program into a book that will help you lose 4lb per month, and keep it off. The only disadvantage is spending a little more time in the supermarket looking for the low fat items and reading the labels. If you too would like to benefit from this program for just $10.00 plus $7.95 shipping worldwide please email me personally at manfredseibert at yahoo.com with delivery information. In addition please feel free to email me if you have any questions. Or visit my website for more information at www.millenniumshapeup.com GOOD LUCK! ________________________________________________________________ This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill:SECTION 301. Per section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(c) of s. 1618, Further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. From declan at well.com Tue Jul 24 20:44:04 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:44:04 -0400 Subject: Even law enforcement hearings in Congress now classified Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010724234331.02001040@mail.well.com> Title: 7/24/01 Media Advisory - Coast Guard Drug Interdiction Hearing To Be Closed To Public NEWS U.S. House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure U.S. Rep. Don Young, Chairman Contact: Steve Hansen (Communications Director) (202) 225-7749 Justin Harclerode (Communications Assistant) (202) 226-8767 To: National Desk July 24, 2001 * Media Advisory * Coast Guard Drug Interdiction Hearing To Be Closed To Public Washington, D.C. - The Thursday afternoon hearing by the U.S. House Subcommittee on the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation regarding the United States' drug interdiction strategy is expected to be closed to the public. The Subcommittee, chaired by U.S. Rep. Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ), is expected to vote to close the hearing to the public because sensitive law enforcement information will be discussed. Only Committee members, Committee staff, and essential personal staff will be allowed to remain in the hearing room after the hearing is closed. # # # From schear at lvcm.com Tue Jul 24 23:44:31 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:44:31 -0700 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010724234108.03ec2890@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:39 AM 7/25/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > You're gibbering about things you have no clue about. Babbling about > > "the intermediate vector boson" when you clearly don't even > > understand high school physics is especially bizarre. > > > > Photons are _quanta_, as in quantum theory. Their energy is given by > > the usual E = hv (v is nu, frequency). They aren't "less energetic" > > when they scatter (i.e., are reflected). A photon fired at a surface > > will scatter/reflect with precisely the energy it had when it hit the > > surface, unless it is absorbed (in which case it knocks electrons out > > of atoms...the photoelectric effect in a vacuum, thermalized in > > ordinary solids). > > > >Here is what actually happens. It's called "The Radiated Electric Field". > >Some 1st year engineering physics books will have it listed in the index >under 'mirror'. > >The incident photons strike the mirror. > >A current is induced. > >That current is electrons moving in a resistor. Making heat, losing >energy. Note, we are NOT talking about photons here but J/C. > >That current re-emits photons that retain both frequency and temporal/time >related coherence (see Maxwell's Equations for more detail). However, the >total number of photons MUST be reduced from the incident beam. This also >means the incident photons can not be the same as the emitted photons. > >The photons (as opposed to 'a photon') lose energy. The photons don't lose energy: the beam or flux is diminished in intensity. Your improper choice of terms is what's getting creating the misunderstandings. steve From sandfort at mindspring.com Tue Jul 24 23:47:22 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:47:22 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist) In-Reply-To: <3B5E63B5.3D7D0EBF@ssz.com> Message-ID: WHERE IS DILDO? The AI suggests Mars. Maybe Dildo has gone there to escape the LSAT challenge. > http://www.marsanarchy.org/MarsPrivSocAnarch.htm /| |/ \ / \ \ / \ \ / \ \ /_______\/ | | | | | o | | | //// | | | ||||| | | | (.)~(x) | | | | O | | | | (_=_) | | | |_| | | | | | |WHERE IS | | | DILDO? | | |_________|/ From declan at well.com Tue Jul 24 20:53:36 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:53:36 -0400 Subject: FBI not as incompetent as recent reports say In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010724231818.020af810@mail.well.com> A broader point can be made as well. The Lee-Hanssen-labtest ancedotes are just that. They may be important, but ancedotes do not by themselves provide evidence of a trend. To really evaluate the FBI, we'd need data like # of prosecutions, # of prosecutions thrown out of court because of bad evidence, # of employees, # of spies caught, and even more detailed info that would be tricky to collect. TRAC does a reasonable job. >But, all in all, I see no particular evidence that the FBI is in a state >of moral or professional collapse. I think I'd rather have been working for Right. They seem pretty much what they were a decade ago, when I first moved to DC. And even though they may still lack clue, they're nevertheless a lot smarter about computer "crimes" and what happens online. FLETC courses, training manuals, Defcon presentations, etc. -Declan From petro at bounty.org Wed Jul 25 00:04:20 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 00:04:20 -0700 Subject: Attention to detail lacking In-Reply-To: References: <3B5E3BE7.C5584FF@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 8:35 PM -0700 7/24/01, Tim May wrote: >At 8:24 PM -0700 7/24/01, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >I think Choate is much like this tech of mine: Have you ever seen the two of them together? > >(Not that college physics is needed. I should hope not, I've got a Fine Art degree with a smattering of philosophy and English. Which is why I work with computers for a living. > When I was in high school I knew enough about physics and math not to have made some of the boners Choate has come out with.) I don't know enough math, but I know that I don't, so where I get confused I ask. From sandfort at mindspring.com Wed Jul 25 00:37:00 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 00:37:00 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist) Message-ID: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: > Sandfort you have come back on this > list like Vulis the bitchy gay.Cut > it out use a filter. As I think I've demonstrated, filters don't work. Nevertheless, I'm getting tired of beating the crap out of Jimbo. There's no challenge any more; it's just too darned easy. So I think I'll back off for a while and just give him the occasional bloody nose along with Tim, Declan, Petro and a host of others. We return you to our regular programming, now in progress. S a n d y From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 22:39:34 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 00:39:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > You're gibbering about things you have no clue about. Babbling about > "the intermediate vector boson" when you clearly don't even > understand high school physics is especially bizarre. > > Photons are _quanta_, as in quantum theory. Their energy is given by > the usual E = hv (v is nu, frequency). They aren't "less energetic" > when they scatter (i.e., are reflected). A photon fired at a surface > will scatter/reflect with precisely the energy it had when it hit the > surface, unless it is absorbed (in which case it knocks electrons out > of atoms...the photoelectric effect in a vacuum, thermalized in > ordinary solids). Here is what actually happens. It's called "The Radiated Electric Field". Some 1st year engineering physics books will have it listed in the index under 'mirror'. The incident photons strike the mirror. A current is induced. That current is electrons moving in a resistor. Making heat, losing energy. Note, we are NOT talking about photons here but J/C. That current re-emits photons that retain both frequency and temporal/time related coherence (see Maxwell's Equations for more detail). However, the total number of photons MUST be reduced from the incident beam. This also means the incident photons can not be the same as the emitted photons. The photons (as opposed to 'a photon') lose energy. Blipverts strike again! Physics J. Orear ISBN 0-02-389460-1 In numbers, z_o is the area of the incident beam j_o is the surface current per unit distance I_o is the induced current I_o = (z_o)(j_o) j_o = (c * E_o)/(2 * 3.14159... * k_o) Go look those up yourself. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Jul 24 23:14:13 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 01:14:13 -0500 Subject: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist Message-ID: <3B5E63B5.3D7D0EBF@ssz.com> http://www.marsanarchy.org/MarsPrivSocAnarch.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aloha700 at usa.com Wed Jul 25 02:57:48 2001 From: aloha700 at usa.com (Aloha700) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 02:57:48 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107250957.f6P9vEq26588@ak47.algebra.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aloha700 at usa.com Wed Jul 25 02:57:48 2001 From: aloha700 at usa.com (Aloha700) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 02:57:48 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107251003.FAA12258@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aloha700 at usa.com Wed Jul 25 02:58:06 2001 From: aloha700 at usa.com (Aloha700) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 02:58:06 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107250906.CAA27415@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aloha700 at usa.com Wed Jul 25 02:58:13 2001 From: aloha700 at usa.com (Aloha700) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 02:58:13 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107251003.FAA12272@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 00:49:53 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 03:49:53 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44552@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Comprimise.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "Comprimise", was sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From roy at scytale.com Wed Jul 25 04:27:51 2001 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:27:51 -0500 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3B5E66E7.19729.1368F157@localhost> On 24 Jul 2001, at 20:59, Petro wrote: > There are several companies making embedded systems boards that use > very little power and are capable of running linux. I don't know if > any of them are quite low power enough to run off a solar panel yet, > but some of the mips/arm designs might be. My current new toy is a CerfCube. (http://www.intrinsyc.com/products/referencedesigns/cerfcube.html) The specs say max 1A @ 5VDC. I know that running a Compact Flash card makes it draw toward the upper limit, but the built in 32MB RAM + 16MB Flash should be enough to run a remailer. Maybe not quite disposable at $379, but it would be interesting to see what I can do in that area. With an adapter, I can run a 802.11 card from the CF socket, I think. (drivers might be tricky) Having fallen a little out of touch, what are the popular remailers in use? Can't seem to find my Mixmaster link anymore. > It would seem to me that if it's a box you don't expect to get back, > it might be a better idea to build a special purpose machine--just the > motherboard, 802.11 device and a reduced Linux installation running > out of flash ram. That sounds like the CerfCube (maybe without the stylish Al cube case). > Depending on the area covered, you wouldn't even need to trespass. If > it's in a mall area, coverage would probably extend to certain areas > of the outside of the building where it might be feasible to mount a > small enough box that it wouldn't get noticed. Epoxy your box to the > wall next to some other sort of electrical equipment (if the > interference won't get in the way) and it will probably remain > undiscovered for a while. Hmmm.... maybe an inductive parasite power tap? -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy at scytale.com DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Key 0x1AF39331 : 71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569 D96B BD40 D926 C05E Key available from pubkey at scytale.com I charge to process unsolicited commercial email From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:46:24 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251046.GAA01321@www4.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:46:55 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251046.GAA28792@www1.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:47:27 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251047.GAA23029@www0.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:47:58 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251047.GAA28835@www1.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:49:48 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251049.GAA28900@www1.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:50:19 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251050.GAA20500@www6.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:50:50 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251050.GAA15442@www7.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:51:21 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251051.GAA12055@www9.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:51:52 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:51:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251051.GAA13937@www2.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:52:57 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251052.GAA12171@www9.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:53:28 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251053.GAA23269@www0.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:53:59 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251053.GAA01605@www4.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:54:30 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251054.GAA14094@www2.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:55:01 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251055.GAA12283@www9.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Jul 25 03:55:33 2001 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen Message-ID: <200107251055.GAA23358@www0.aa.psiweb.com> [ my email is really fucked right now, gawd only knows how many copies this single transmission will result in. apologies in advance. ] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm # # July 25, 2001 # # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents # # By TED BRIDIS # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. # # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers # since its discovery last week. # # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. # # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between # the FBI and private-sector groups. # # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. # # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is # identified. # # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned # it would lose its warning responsibilities. # # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't # respond to a request for comment. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 25 05:29:52 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:29:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010724234108.03ec2890@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > The photons don't lose energy: the beam or flux is diminished in > intensity. Your improper choice of terms is what's getting creating the > misunderstandings. Really? I'd say that any distinction between the 'photons energy' and the 'current energy' is a false distinction. The 'current' is realy a 'virtual' current since it exists 'instantaniously' (ie there is no discernable delay between the incident photons and the emitted one) otherwise your 'mirror' wouldn't be a 'mirror' (ie the reflected image would not retain both phase and time coherence) as the reflected waves would be in-coherent. For a similar 'virtual' effect look at the current flow on the input of a op-amp (ie virtual ground). In either case, your distinction is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Will a mirror, even the most effective mirror on the planet, work as a defence against a high-level optical laser for a rocket (ie ICBM)? Answer, no. Even the small losses of such a perfect mirror at these beam intensities would be too great. There are three components to this failure. The first is the simple losses in the mirror itself, the second is the massive cooling it would require to compensate for these loses would completely destroy the ability of the rocket to deliver its warhead, and then some since it would be roughly equivalent to another rocket being strapped onto this one. The impact on Isp is catastrophic in this scenario. Then we can look at operational issues, will it even fit in a submarine now effectively? Will it fit on a mobile launcher? I doubt it considering the size changes that would need to take place. And thirdly, even if we allow that the mirroring worked, it is a moot point. The rocket is now too large and slow to deliver its warheads effectively because the increase in mass has so reduced its range and payload. By defeating the laser, you've created a missile that you can't launch. The goal of the laser operator is obtained, in either case. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 25 05:42:07 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:42:07 -0500 Subject: District gets OK on red light cameras -- The Washington Times Message-ID: <3B5EBE9F.3B43BF7A@ssz.com> Who else a few weeks ago was talking about 'right to face ones accuser'? That a distinction between 'witness' and 'evidence' was being lost? Check the archives ladies and gentlemen. http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20010725-91340800.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 25 05:43:27 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:43:27 -0500 Subject: Greco Says Ybor City Cameras Will Stay: From The Tampa Tribune Message-ID: <3B5EBEEF.C364E138@ssz.com> I predict that Greco will not win the next election. http://www.tampatrib.com/MGAVF7SIKPC.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Wed Jul 25 08:48:54 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:48:54 -0700 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washing tonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010725084626.03742298@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:05 AM 7/25/2001 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > Bill Stewart writes: > > > Meanwhile of course, any foreign terrorist that wants to nuke the US > > with a physically small weapon only needs to pack it in cocaine > > and bring it in with the regular shipments, > > while Rogue Nations that can only make large Fat Boy style weapons > > need cruder methods, like bribing a crane operator to load the wrong > > container on a ship bound for New York or Los Angelese harbor. > > > > >It may not be that easy. My understanding (based on various TV programs >broadcast back in the early 90's) is that there is a program called 'NEST', >which stands for something like Nuclear Emergency (mumble) Team, >tasked with dealing with this type of problem. > >One protection hinted is that strategically chosen points of transit >(bridges, >ports, tunnels, major highways, mail, baggage and freight facilities, etc) >have >detectors for nuclear materials. > >The thing is, while you can sheild a source to the point where it is not >a hazard, sheilding it to the point of *undetectability* is far harder task. > >If you detect even a single gamma ray of a certain frequency, or >betas or even alphas of certain energies, you *know* that a certain >isotope produced them. If the detectors note the presence of a >certain isotopes, they generate the appropriate alarms. > >There are also other detection systems - I've seen X-rays of entire >container trucks which were passing through the Chunnel - illegal >immigrants were quite visible inside the container. > >An attacker's best chance would be to place his weapon in a >container, heavily sheilded, and then to bury that in the middle of >a stack of other containers of heavy shielding in the hold of a >container ship, and plan to detonate it while still on board in a >target harbor. Or reduce the effectiveness of the detection system by clandestinely "salting" vessels entering our ports with radio active dust with the same energy signatures. Sort of a radio active chaff. steve From bob at black.org Wed Jul 25 09:04:26 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:04:26 -0700 Subject: where's dildo? if he's not white, at Texas Southern University Message-ID: <3B5EEE0A.87DAEEAA@black.org> Report: TSU Law School Admissions Too Easy The American Bar Association is asking Texas Southern University's law school to raise admission standards, effectively shutting the door to many black and Hispanic students that would likely not have been accepted at other state law schools. The request comes as part of a seven-year accreditation review of the Thurgood Marshall School of Law by the ABA. The law school, created in 1946 to allow blacks to attend a publicly funded law school, trains a majority of the state's black and Hispanic law students. Experts said that many TSU law students and graduates would likely not have been accepted at other state law schools because their college grade point averages and entrance exam scores were too low. "The attrition rate is unconscionably high, and the bar passage rate remains the lowest among all law schools in the state of Texas," the Chicago-based ABA said in a report obtained by the Houston Chronicle. The report, citing statistics from the July 2000 Texas bar exam, said that 52 percent of TSU law school graduates passed the test on their first attempt, and 33 percent passed on subsequent attempts. The state-passing rate for those taking the exam for the first time on the same date was 82 percent, and 42 percent on second attempts. Of the 331 students who entered the TSU law school in the fall of 1999, only 201 maintained the required 2.0 grade point average needed to stay at the school by the end of the 2000 academic year, the report said. That gave the school a first-year attrition rate of 40 percent, more than four times the national average of 8.9 percent. Admissions standards have already been raised slightly to meet ABA concerns, said John Brittain, dean of the law school. He expects the school to retain its ABA accreditation, which is required by the state. The school must submit a plan to the ABA by November. Brittain said that he believes it is possible to raise admission standards to weed out many students who would not graduate or pass, but still provide an opportunity to attend law school to minorities who otherwise might not qualify. "Raising admission standards presents a dilemma for the state of Texas because it has abolished affirmative action in higher education," Brittain said. "The Thurgood Marshall School of Law is performing a special mission for the state by allowing many students to attend law school who would not have gained admission to other law schools. "We want to continue fulfilling this historical mission of serving minorities. We have to do a little bit of both, raise admission standards and take educational risks." In the 1999-2000 academic year, TSU officials said that the school enrolled 92 percent of all black first-year law students attending the state's four public law schools and 52 percent of the first-year Hispanic students. In recent years, the average Law School Admissions Test score for students admitted to TSU has been 142, significantly below the national average of 150, the ABA said. The median grade point average for students admitted to TSU's law school has ranged from 2.67 to 2.76, compared with the national average of 3.06 to 3.10. The ABA report also said that TSU's law school does not have adequate resources to educate the large classes of approximately 300 students it has admitted in recent years. The ABA report said that the law building is too small, classes are crowded and that there is not enough space for clinical programs or student organizations. Brittain said that the university has pledged to spend $5 million to renovate the law school building and is considering spending another $5 million to build a new wing. He also said that the school will provide more training for the bar exam, strengthen its research and writing programs, and increase library funding. For more information, log onto the Thurgood Marshall School of Law Web site at www.tsulaw.edu. From rsw at MIT.EDU Wed Jul 25 06:10:00 2001 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:10:00 -0400 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 12:39:34AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010725091000.A13443@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > That current re-emits photons that retain both frequency and temporal/time > related coherence (see Maxwell's Equations for more detail). However, the > total number of photons MUST be reduced from the incident beam. This also > means the incident photons can not be the same as the emitted photons. > > The photons (as opposed to 'a photon') lose energy. That still means your original post was wrong. Jim Choate wrote: > The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) > transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is > required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, 100%, > reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror > interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. See? "Every photon that hits the mirror," etc. You were under the impression that each photon lost energy. You were wrong. It's not hard to admit it. C'mon. If you don't want to type it, you can just cut and paste the following into a message: ---Begin cut area--- I, James Choate, was wrong. My statements concerning the interactions of photons with mirrors showed a clear misunderstanding of the underlying physics. ---End cut area--- -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 25 09:26:55 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:26:55 -0700 Subject: Lasers and ICBMs Message-ID: Being older than most of you, I remember doing some of these calculations about burn times, laser intensities, etc. more than 20 years ago. (Although Reagan did not announce SDI until around 1983, the topic was widely discussed in the late '70s. "Scientific American" published articles by Prof. Kosta Tsipis, Richard Garwin, and others about the difficulty of intercepting ICBMs with lasers and particle beams. I remember some of these articles from circa 1977-79. I even used one of the them as the basis for a presentation I made to DARPA in Washington on a kill method for satellites.) A lot of the calculations being sketched out here, of watts/cm^2, dwell times, gold coatings, etc. are slightly off-base. We've known for 20+ years that the kill method is to use a short pulse to "push" (not from the photons' momentum) in the thin wall of an ICBM's fuel system. A very short pulse can produce enough ablative heating, a kind of "puff," to trigger buckling of the very thin wall of an ICBM. So the theory goes. Countermeasures to traditional "heating" are so easy to imagine (rapidly spinning the missile, deploying gold-plated shrouds once exoatmosheric, changing the missile coating at random intervals to foil laser frequencies, etc.) that the "punch" method was developed. I'm still skeptical, for the reasons many have outlined over the years. Bill Stewart, most recently, who pointed out that the Macedonian Liberation Army will simply smuggle in a bomb and then demand that the U.S. and NATO stop arming the Albanian terrorists. And so on. For knocking out satellites, particle beam weapons are the way to go. And don't believe Kosta Tsipis' 1978-79 article in Sci Am about how 50 loads of fuel in the space shuttle would be needed for every firing of a particle beam weapon. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 25 09:34:52 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:34:52 -0700 Subject: SirCam In-Reply-To: <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> References: <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: At 11:05 AM -0500 7/25/01, Jon Beets wrote: >I got my first SirCam hit today.. WOoohooo > I got about 30 of them on Saturday, more on Sunday, fewer on Monday, about the same on Tuesday, and a few so far today. One of my systems, my main one, handled the huge files with aplomb, as I have set it to not deliver files large than some threshold to my home machine unless I fetch them explicitly. My other system, a new OS X system I am experimenting with, was bogging down with a spinning cursor indicating massive system activity. It's my secondary mail system (just for experimenting) and I hadn't bothered to set the fetch thresholds. It turns out it (OS X "Mail") was busily downloading several of these 4000 KB (yes, 4 MB) attachments! While many of the "SirCam" attachments are "only" about 200-300 KB, the ones I got Monday and Tuesday were often megabytes in size. I fixed this in the obvious way. I also bounce them back to the senders, with the "abuse at domain.name" address added for good measure. Most never make it, as the "recipient's mailbox is full"! One of these domain names has threatened to have my account cancelled for this bouncing. So if I go off the air, this may be the reason. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 06:40:46 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:40:46 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44574@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 礎繫罈羅糧疆.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 礎繫罈羅糧疆", was sent from 糧簪罈織簫 and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Jul 25 10:18:59 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:18:59 -0700 Subject: Attention to detail lacking Message-ID: <3B5EFF83.BE530CFD@lsil.com> Tim, >>I think the reflected beam has the same wavelength as the incident beam. > >Photons hitting a surface most definitely do not "lose some energy" >and get "re-emitted." There are some very particular configurations >that can act as wavelength doublers, but this is a particular, and >hard to set up, configuration. > >Photons hitting a mirror either are re-emitted with the same energy >as before or interact via the photoelectric effect and are >thermalized (converted to phonons). > >That colors are preserved in mirrors, absent tints (special >absorbers), is a Physics 1 clue that mirrors do not downshift photon >energies!. > The reason for the weak statement "I think" is that I imagine you might make an argument that the momentum transfer from the photon to the "mirror" results in a very small doppler shift...I'm just not positive about it at the smallest level of interaction. >I think Choate is much like this tech of mine: lacking a solid >grounding and overly reliant on his own private notions of what >"mass" and "energy" and "group velocity" and so on are. All the best >cranks view the world this way. > >I don't know Choate's educational background, but I would not be at >all surprised if he is self-taught and moved into computers out of >some technician training school. > I've reached the same conclusion. I've known some very bright people who lacked access to a formal education. The results were some startling levels of understanding mixed right in with some mind blowing misconceptions and some outright gaps. Mike From mail at lct.uk.com Wed Jul 25 08:23:50 2001 From: mail at lct.uk.com (LCT) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:23:50 -0500 Subject: London C Training - poRusski Message-ID: <200107251523.KAA18626@einstein.ssz.com> Russia
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-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ENGLISH.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1569 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 07:24:10 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:24:10 -0400 Subject: FC: Geeks want to "Free Dmitry" -- but Congress says keep him in jail Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45522,00.html Congress No Haven for Hackers By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. July 25, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Even as the world's geeks march against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, key legislators and lobbyists are dismissing concerns about the controversial law as hyperbole. The law that led to the arrest of Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov last week and an immediate outcry among programmers continues to enjoy remarkably broad support on Capitol Hill. No bill has yet been introduced in Congress to amend the DMCA for one simple reason: Official Washington loves the law precisely as much as hackers and programmers despise it. "The law is performing the way we hoped," said Rep. Howard Coble (R-North Carolina), chairman of the House Judiciary subcommittee on intellectual property. The FBI arrested Sklyarov last week in Las Vegas for allegedly "trafficking" in software that circumvents the copy protection techniques that Adobe uses in its e-book format. Under the DMCA, selling such software is a federal felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of $500,000. "As far as I know there have been very few complaints from intellectual property holders," Coble, the chief sponsor of the DMCA, said in an interview Tuesday. "I am also encouraged by the Department of Justice's actions in this matter to enforce the law." When Congress approved the DMCA in October 1998 after about a year's worth of little-noticed debate and negotiations, it was hardly a controversial bill. The Senate agreed to it unanimously, and a unanimous House approved it by voice vote, then bypassed a procedural step that would have delayed the DMCA's enactment. Since the House procedure says attempts to rewrite copyright law must start in Coble's subcommittee, the odds of a DMCA rewrite in Congress' lower chamber seem remote. Coble's counterpart in the Senate, California Democrat Dianne Feinstein, feels the same way. "We need to protect copyrights and this law was designed to do that," said Howard Gantman, a spokesman for Feinstein, who chairs the Senate Judiciary subcommittee on technology. "She's not looking to change it." [...] But in the world of Washington politics, geektivists are woefully outnumbered by the natives who populate and influence confirmation hearings: Corporate, nonprofit and trade association lobbyists. "We believe that a careful effort was made by Congress to balance the rights of intellectual property owners and the rights of intellectual property consumers," says Allan Adler, vice president at the Association of American Publishers, which applauded Sklyarov's arrest last week. [...] The Free-Dmitry movement argues that programmers should not be prosecuted for creating software that can circumvent copyright protection -- since such tools have many legitimate uses, such as reading an e-book on another computer, as well. But DMCA aficionados say there are precedents for broad prohibitions on selling devices that can have both legitimate and illegitimate uses. Current federal law makes it a felony to own, distribute or advertise for sale bugging or wiretapping devices that are "primary useful for the purpose of surreptitious interception of wire, oral or electronic communications." That applies even to parents who might want to monitor what their young children are doing, or to other commonplace uses. You're also not allowed to possess hardware or software such as cell phone cloning devices that let you "obtain telecommunications service without authorization" -- even if your motives are pure. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 07:25:02 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:25:02 -0400 Subject: Geeks want to "Free Dmitry" -- but Congress says keep him in jail Message-ID: <20010725102501.B8972@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From pzakas at toucancapital.com Wed Jul 25 07:29:28 2001 From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:29:28 -0400 Subject: Attention to detail lacking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim May Wrote: > I think Choate is much like this tech of mine: lacking a solid > grounding and overly reliant on his own private notions of what > "mass" and "energy" and "group velocity" and so on are. All the best > cranks view the world this way. maybe Choate is the long lost son of oedipa maas. phillip From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 25 10:31:12 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:31:12 -0700 Subject: SirCam In-Reply-To: References: <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010725103112.009d7780@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:34 AM 7/25/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: >At 11:05 AM -0500 7/25/01, Jon Beets wrote: >>I got my first SirCam hit today.. WOoohooo >> > >I got about 30 of them on Saturday, more on Sunday, fewer on Monday, >about the same on Tuesday, and a few so far today. If you check the inet-one.com archive (derived from an unfiltered feed) you'll see them appear this week. inet-one.com saves the attaches as *.bin files. They are sometimes amusing to read, e.g., with Emacs; or run strings on it. "Jan" sounds like he was dicked around by "Juniper", pretty badly, from Jan's telling of it. There's also an "officers killed in action" spreadsheet from Portsmouth VA. One of my systems, >my main one, handled the huge files with aplomb, as I have set it to >not deliver files large than some threshold to my home machine unless >I fetch them explicitly. A fortunate side effect of conserving the b/width through your POTS modem. [same here] From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 07:31:52 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:31:52 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44578@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found MCB.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: MCB", was sent from Yatrik Shah and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 25 10:38:53 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:38:53 -0700 Subject: Fox & Rabbits, or Fox & Hounds (re: Fox's Ape Letter) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010725103853.009d9770@pop.sprynet.com> Fox & Rabbits implies an arms race. Fox & Hounds implies dead Fox. Here's a way to tickle the Fox. With a taser^H^H^H^HLinux. Copied from another list. On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 05:12:53PM -0700, David Honig wrote: > It would be amusing to create very large files named Planet_of_the_Apes > hosted on very slow servers ----servers slow enough to discourage actual > downloaders, but existent enough to annoy Fox. 'Servers' includes > numerous P2P tools, so you can do this at home. > > Extra credit if the very large files are uniformly distributed noise. > > Extra credit if the noise has the appropriate headers so it looks like > a Divx or whatever is a plausible format. trivial to accomplish, too. attached to this mail is an empty mpeg file (zipped). you can inflate it to any size you desire by doing (on Linux): unzip empty.zip dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1024 count=xxx >>empty.mpg where xxx is the number of KB you want to add. use 681574400 for 650 MB which is the size of a CD and would look very promising for a pirated movie. From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 25 10:39:02 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:39:02 -0700 Subject: Attention to detail lacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:29 AM -0400 7/25/01, Phillip H. Zakas wrote: >Tim May Wrote: > >> I think Choate is much like this tech of mine: lacking a solid >> grounding and overly reliant on his own private notions of what >> "mass" and "energy" and "group velocity" and so on are. All the best >> cranks view the world this way. > >maybe Choate is the long lost son of oedipa maas. What a w.a.s.t.e. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Wed Jul 25 07:49:17 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:49:17 -0400 Subject: Geeks want to "Free Dmitry" -- but Congress says keep him in jail In-Reply-To: <20010725102501.B8972@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 10:25:02AM -0400 References: <20010725102501.B8972@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010725104916.B8382@ils.unc.edu> On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 10:25:02AM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > ... > "We believe that a careful effort was made by Congress to balance the > rights of intellectual property owners and the rights of intellectual > property consumers," says Allan Adler, vice president at the > Association of American Publishers, which applauded Sklyarov's arrest > last week. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk...... As if anyone else's opinion matters but the industries that paid for the DMCA in the first place. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Jul 25 08:05:29 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:05:29 -0400 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washing tonpost.com) Message-ID: Bill Stewart writes: > Meanwhile of course, any foreign terrorist that wants to nuke the US > with a physically small weapon only needs to pack it in cocaine > and bring it in with the regular shipments, > while Rogue Nations that can only make large Fat Boy style weapons > need cruder methods, like bribing a crane operator to load the wrong > container on a ship bound for New York or Los Angelese harbor. > > It may not be that easy. My understanding (based on various TV programs broadcast back in the early 90's) is that there is a program called 'NEST', which stands for something like Nuclear Emergency (mumble) Team, tasked with dealing with this type of problem. One protection hinted is that strategically chosen points of transit (bridges, ports, tunnels, major highways, mail, baggage and freight facilities, etc) have detectors for nuclear materials. The thing is, while you can sheild a source to the point where it is not a hazard, sheilding it to the point of *undetectability* is far harder task. If you detect even a single gamma ray of a certain frequency, or betas or even alphas of certain energies, you *know* that a certain isotope produced them. If the detectors note the presence of a certain isotopes, they generate the appropriate alarms. There are also other detection systems - I've seen X-rays of entire container trucks which were passing through the Chunnel - illegal immigrants were quite visible inside the container. An attacker's best chance would be to place his weapon in a container, heavily sheilded, and then to bury that in the middle of a stack of other containers of heavy shielding in the hold of a container ship, and plan to detonate it while still on board in a target harbor. UPS probably would not work (besides, I think they have a limit of around 90 lbs). Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Jul 25 08:05:29 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:05:29 -0400 Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washing tonpost.com) Message-ID: Bill Stewart writes: > Meanwhile of course, any foreign terrorist that wants to nuke the US > with a physically small weapon only needs to pack it in cocaine > and bring it in with the regular shipments, > while Rogue Nations that can only make large Fat Boy style weapons > need cruder methods, like bribing a crane operator to load the wrong > container on a ship bound for New York or Los Angelese harbor. > > It may not be that easy. My understanding (based on various TV programs broadcast back in the early 90's) is that there is a program called 'NEST', which stands for something like Nuclear Emergency (mumble) Team, tasked with dealing with this type of problem. One protection hinted is that strategically chosen points of transit (bridges, ports, tunnels, major highways, mail, baggage and freight facilities, etc) have detectors for nuclear materials. The thing is, while you can sheild a source to the point where it is not a hazard, sheilding it to the point of *undetectability* is far harder task. If you detect even a single gamma ray of a certain frequency, or betas or even alphas of certain energies, you *know* that a certain isotope produced them. If the detectors note the presence of a certain isotopes, they generate the appropriate alarms. There are also other detection systems - I've seen X-rays of entire container trucks which were passing through the Chunnel - illegal immigrants were quite visible inside the container. An attacker's best chance would be to place his weapon in a container, heavily sheilded, and then to bury that in the middle of a stack of other containers of heavy shielding in the hold of a container ship, and plan to detonate it while still on board in a target harbor. UPS probably would not work (besides, I think they have a limit of around 90 lbs). Peter Trei From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Wed Jul 25 09:05:36 2001 From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:05:36 -0500 Subject: SirCam Message-ID: <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> I got my first SirCam hit today.. WOoohooo Jon Beets Pacer Communications -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ENGLISH.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1569 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 08:28:26 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:28:26 -0400 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: <20010725091000.A13443@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@mit.edu on Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 09:10:00AM -0400 References: <20010725091000.A13443@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20010725112825.A9648@cluebot.com> On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 09:10:00AM -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > ---Begin cut area--- > > I, James Choate, was wrong. My statements concerning the interactions > of photons with mirrors showed a clear misunderstanding of the > underlying physics. > > ---End cut area--- My working theory is that Choate is using the assembled, um, wisdom of the cypherpunks as an alternative to classical forms of education (note I'm not saying he's actually learning anything). Or, alternatively, Choate is simply a Markov chain that uses the cypherpunks archives, the U.S. Constitution, and a high school physics book as its base text. Perhaps eventually the Book of Choate will become as well known as the Book of Beak: http://www.talltree.net/~aad/beak.html -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 08:29:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:29:31 -0400 Subject: FBI: Keystone Gmen In-Reply-To: <200107251055.GAA12283@www9.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:55:01AM -0400 References: <200107251055.GAA12283@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20010725112931.B9648@cluebot.com> Answer: Too many! Moral: Don't post to cypherpunks with a screwy mail {delivery,transport} agent. -Declan On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:55:01AM -0400, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > [ my email is really fucked right now, > gawd only knows how many copies this > single transmission will result in. > apologies in advance. > ] > > http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB99601609210000000.htm > # > # July 25, 2001 > # > # FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus > # That E-Mails Private Agency Documents > # > # By TED BRIDIS > # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL > # > # WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investiga > # tion's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet > # virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all > # on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. > # > # Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at > # the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send > # at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about > # the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official > # use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers > # since its discovery last week. > # > # FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified > # information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. > # The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure > # under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. > # > # It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect > # their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing > # because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight > # hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were > # expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully > # with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between > # the FBI and private-sector groups. > # > # The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal > # investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective > # than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass > # anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said > # Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. > # > # Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new > # early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current > # system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. > # The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies > # -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning > # and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens > # of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is > # identified. > # > # The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI > # unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp > # criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. > # Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a > # "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability > # that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned > # it would lose its warning responsibilities. > # > # Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the > # FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert > # in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports > # on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince > # Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't > # respond to a request for comment. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 09:03:53 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:03:53 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44588@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Fax Cover Sheet.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Fax Cover Sheet", was sent from joe lynch and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From rubykase at austarnet.com.au Tue Jul 24 19:16:51 2001 From: rubykase at austarnet.com.au (Kase) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:16:51 +1000 Subject: TRAVEL INFORMATION web site Message-ID: <200107250220.ACH62227@gol-msw1.austar.net.au> ****************** Virus Warning Message (on gol-mro1.austar.net.au) Found virus TROJ_SIRCAM.A in file TRAVEL INFORMATION web site.doc.pif The uncleanable file is deleted. ********************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- ****************** Virus Warning Message (on gol-mro1.austar.net.au) TRAVEL INFORMATION web site.doc.pif is removed from here because it contains a virus. ********************************************************* From rubykase at austarnet.com.au Tue Jul 24 19:20:45 2001 From: rubykase at austarnet.com.au (Kase) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:20:45 +1000 Subject: TRAVEL INFORMATION web site Message-ID: <200107250224.ACH62336@gol-msw1.austar.net.au> ****************** Virus Warning Message (on gol-mro1.austar.net.au) Found virus TROJ_SIRCAM.A in file TRAVEL INFORMATION web site.doc.pif The uncleanable file is deleted. ********************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- ****************** Virus Warning Message (on gol-mro1.austar.net.au) TRAVEL INFORMATION web site.doc.pif is removed from here because it contains a virus. ********************************************************* From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Wed Jul 25 10:42:21 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:42:21 -0500 Subject: Are the digits of Pi random? A Berkley lab researcher may hold the key Message-ID: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/07/010725081838.htm James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From info at giganetstore.com Wed Jul 25 04:54:17 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:54:17 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Parab=E9ns!_Acabou_de_ganhar_1000$00?= Message-ID: <007be1854111971WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> CHEQUE DIGITAL A Dmail e a Giganetstore.com t礙m o prazer de lhe oferecer um cheque de Esc. 1.000,00 para utilizar em compras no nosso canal de Ideias teis. Escreva aqui abaixo o seu E-Mail e em poucos segundos receber獺 na sua caixa postal electr籀nica um CHEQUE DIGITAL absolutamente GRATUITO de Esc.1.000, utiliz獺vel imediatamente no nosso site. Escreva o seu E-Mail: Antes de continuar, certifique-se que digitou correctamente o seu E-Mail. IDEIAS TEIS E ORIGINAIS COLCHO INSUFLVEL Uma cama que aparece s籀 quando 矇 preciso! Parentes ou amigos que chegam de repente? N瓊o h獺 problema: em poucos minutos surge uma cama de casal, gra癟as a este colch瓊o insufl獺vel! Clique aqui! ----- CONJUNTO DE VIAGEM Para dormir confortavelmente, em qualquer lugar! Ideal no avi瓊o, no comboio, no carro e sempre que precise de repousar comodamente e n瓊o tenha oportunidade de se deitar. Clique aqui! ----- Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5849 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 04:25:31 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:25:31 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) Okay, a have a chemical laser, something which burns tons of fuel (deuterium/fluorine) in a second in a resonant cavity. It is hence a not very small cavity. The wavelength is IR, several microns. This is high-power optics with a giant aperture (because, you don't want your optics to suffer the fate of your target, and because the resonant cavity itself is huge). Lenses don't like giant fluxes, either. Even a ruby laser pulse can break optics, or the rod, if it has a blemish. Lenses are *HEAVY*. Lenses are not flexible, so you can't use them for tracking. Lenses don't do very well when we're talking about few um IR. So what that leaves you with is an active mirror optics. > transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is > required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, > 100%, reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror > interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. Jim, I fear that bullet accident you had took a chunk out of one of your frontal lobes. Or at least lead to a hemorrhage to a lesion in that area. Have you ever had a MRI screen done? I'm serious. > I have a half dozen lasers, thank you very much. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 04:25:31 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:25:31 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > The optics used for focusing are NOT mirrors, they are (hopefully) Okay, a have a chemical laser, something which burns tons of fuel (deuterium/fluorine) in a second in a resonant cavity. It is hence a not very small cavity. The wavelength is IR, several microns. This is high-power optics with a giant aperture (because, you don't want your optics to suffer the fate of your target, and because the resonant cavity itself is huge). Lenses don't like giant fluxes, either. Even a ruby laser pulse can break optics, or the rod, if it has a blemish. Lenses are *HEAVY*. Lenses are not flexible, so you can't use them for tracking. Lenses don't do very well when we're talking about few um IR. So what that leaves you with is an active mirror optics. > transparent at the frequency under use. A mirror on the other hand is > required to be OPAQUE with respect to transmission, we want full, > 100%, reflectivity. That means that every photon that hits that mirror > interacts, loses some energy, and gets re-emitted. Jim, I fear that bullet accident you had took a chunk out of one of your frontal lobes. Or at least lead to a hemorrhage to a lesion in that area. Have you ever had a MRI screen done? I'm serious. > I have a half dozen lasers, thank you very much. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 05:04:56 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:04:56 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Home Network Security (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:12:44 -0700 From: Joshua Stanley To: silent-tristero at world.std.com Subject: Re: Home Network Security At 04:50 PM 7/23/01 -0400, Andrew A. Gill heralded: >CERT recently released a list of home network security guidelines. If >you know anyone who is less than clued about this type of thing, send >them here: > > > >Pretty basic guidelines, but it's better than 3AM calls from cow-orkers. In the latest issue of 2600 Quarterly, a reader writes in to brag about how he recently drove around his neighborhood with the receiver-half of a wireless camera (a la the X-10 camera... you know, you've seen those relentless X-10 pop-up ads recently) connected to a portable TV, and discovered that many of his neighbors had spy cameras set up in all kinds of fun places. Apparently lots more people than you might think like to spy on other members of their own families... or themselves... or their pets... children... baby sitters, etcetera. And of course, that his activity, intercepting publicly broadcast, unencrypted video, (probably) isn't even illegal. Every one of those people was inadvertently entering the business of broadcast media. -Josh >-- >|Andrew A. Gill |I posted to Silent-Tristero and| >| |all I got was this stupid sig! | >|alt.tv.simpsons CBG-FAQ author | | >| (Report all obscene mail to Le Maitre Pots)| >| Temporary sig: -- > >Go CERT! For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 05:04:56 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:04:56 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Home Network Security (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:12:44 -0700 From: Joshua Stanley To: silent-tristero at world.std.com Subject: Re: Home Network Security At 04:50 PM 7/23/01 -0400, Andrew A. Gill heralded: >CERT recently released a list of home network security guidelines. If >you know anyone who is less than clued about this type of thing, send >them here: > > > >Pretty basic guidelines, but it's better than 3AM calls from cow-orkers. In the latest issue of 2600 Quarterly, a reader writes in to brag about how he recently drove around his neighborhood with the receiver-half of a wireless camera (a la the X-10 camera... you know, you've seen those relentless X-10 pop-up ads recently) connected to a portable TV, and discovered that many of his neighbors had spy cameras set up in all kinds of fun places. Apparently lots more people than you might think like to spy on other members of their own families... or themselves... or their pets... children... baby sitters, etcetera. And of course, that his activity, intercepting publicly broadcast, unencrypted video, (probably) isn't even illegal. Every one of those people was inadvertently entering the business of broadcast media. -Josh >-- >|Andrew A. Gill |I posted to Silent-Tristero and| >| |all I got was this stupid sig! | >|alt.tv.simpsons CBG-FAQ author | | >| (Report all obscene mail to Le Maitre Pots)| >| Temporary sig: -- > >Go CERT! For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken From amaha at vsnl.net Wed Jul 25 12:10:05 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:10:05 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107251910.f6PJA4q22367@ak47.algebra.com> I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. --Isaac Asimov ======================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From bear at sonic.net Wed Jul 25 14:13:18 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: So, what do the Russians think? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good point. A Russian cryptographer was grabbed, unable to talk to his consulate for at least three days, and the Russians don't say anything? I smell a rat. Perhaps Dmitry was sold down the river. (Note for non-USA readers: "sold down the river" is an americanism for betrayal. It dates from the days of slavery, where the conditions for slaves were worse the further down the (Mississippi) river they were. It was common for slaveowners to promise to sell their slaves upriver to gain their goodwill, and then sell them downriver for more money than they could get upriver. Since slaves' communication was tightly controlled, lying to the ones left about where their buds had gone was also common, and usually undetected. Parallels to the current situation are left as an exercise for the reader.) Bear From jono at microshaft.org Wed Jul 25 14:45:52 2001 From: jono at microshaft.org (Jon O .) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:45:52 -0700 Subject: cryptography license negotiation In-Reply-To: <2359ec23c7ff.23c7ff2359ec@homemail.nyu.edu>; from gmp216@nyu.edu on Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:11:32PM -0400 References: <2359ec23c7ff.23c7ff2359ec@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: <20010725144552.G16102@networkcommand.com> Check: http://www.anti-dmca.org On 25-Jul-2001, Gregory M Pomerantz wrote: > I am working on negotiating a licensing agreement for a large piece of > software that contains a cryptographic component. I am trying to > negotiate a warranty term that favors us in the event that the > algorithm or implementation should prove insecure. Ideally I would like > 1) disclosure of the algorithm and 2) a representation that > cryptographic experts consider the algorithm is considered secure or at > least appropriate to the use being made of it. > > Has anybody ever negotiated something like this with a software vendor? > Can anyone produce sample language from a licensing agreement? Is there > a better place I can ask this question? ("get a lawyer" is not a > helpful response. IAAL). Thanks for your help > > > gmp > From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 25 12:15:03 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:15:03 -0400 Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe References: <200107240456.f6O4uLE12826@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: In article , Petro wrote: >At 9:56 PM -0700 7/23/01, Eric Cordian wrote: >>Tim writes: >> >>> Adobe's use of police state measures to have a minor critic (by their >>> own later admission) yanked out of a conference is not likely to be >>> forgotten quickly. I expect this will have consequences when they >>> eventually resume college recruiting. Adobe will likely face sneers >>> and derisive laughter when it shows up on college campuses next >>> spring to recruit. >> >>Adobe's pulling back on Dmitry doesn't change the fact that the company >>lied in saying what was being distributed was "copyrighted Adobe >>software." >> >>Despite the EFF's effusive praise of Adobe, I don't plan to use any Adobe >>software in the future. > > Is there a workable freeware alternative to Distiller? I've never used Distiller; is it more than a Postscript-to-PDF converter? The free ps2pdf is part of ghostscript. - Ian From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Jul 25 12:25:49 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: So, what do the Russians think? Message-ID: One of the curious aspects of the whole Sklyarov affair is the silence of the Russians. I've not heard of any comment from the Russian government on the US news, the Novosti press agency has said nothing today or Tuesday (all I can check), and TASS has a couple of headlines, but (as far as I can tell) no editiorial material going either way (I can't read the TASS articles without a subscription). Most odd.... Peter Trei From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Jul 25 12:35:30 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Job satisfaction and security clearances Message-ID: <26375da7b1081a8fe5b6e6079f5ad928@freemail.cotse.com> At 5:54 PM -0400 7/24/01, Faustine wrote: >Tim wrote: > >>Likewise, I know of even some Cypherpunks who have left their >>employers for ideological reasons. And if some have _left_ jobs, the >>effects are likely greater on the _recruiting_ side (where the costs >>of a decision are much less). > >Absolutely. More than that, I try to never take a job unless I'd be willing >to do it for free. All free-market principles aside, if you're just in it >for the paycheck, what's the point? I'd rather do something I love that's >meaningful to me than just make a pile. Even better not to have to choose >at all. (Not there yet, so #1 it is...) >I liked, even greatly liked, some aspects of my job in the 70s and >80s, but there is no way I would have done it for "free." I was >getting up at the crack of dawn, arriving by 8 or earlier every >morning, working more or less continuously until 6 each night, often >working on Saturdays, sometimes working on Sundays, to do what my >bosses told me needed doing. While I could often innovate, the broad >outlines of my "interests" were set by management. >I believe this is mostly the case in 99% of all work environments, >even ones "loved" by the workers. Very few jobs are of the form "Do >what turns you on." True, I guess--this time around, I just happen to be in the extremely lucky 1%. Any work I have to do that's somewhat of a grind is a tiny, tiny price to pay for the rest of the time I have complete freedom to work on whatever projects I want while surrounded by excellent resources: my office is so private, comfortable and well-equipped, I usually stay late every night and come in on the weekends--researching, writing, coding, studying, absolutely anything I feel like doing. In a few weeks, it's back to a full graduate courseload on top of a flexible 40 hour workweek (we set our own hours), but since my employer is actually paying 100% of the tuition, and all the coursework dovetails nicely with the research I'm doing (for myself and for them), I couldn't be happier. I'd be a fool to let an opportunity to be in an environment like this pass me over in the name of "more leisure time." Even if I were unemployed and had my absolute choice, I'd still be researching, writing, coding, studying, etc. So the paycheck and free tuition is basically just icing on the cake. I never dreamed I'd get to the point I could say that, but there it is... >What most people think of as "loving" the job is >really just the result of adapting their own goals to that of the >organization. It works for dogs, who also "love" their jobs, so why >not for humans? Yep, good point. But then again, there's the question of the differences in work environment between academia/nonprofit/NGO/think tank-types of places and the private sector, small businesses/corporations. Each of these sectors has a different reason-for-being, which in turn attracts different types of people. For instance, no matter how much freedom I could possibly have at a widget factory, I don't think I could ever get over the fact that the bottom line is I'm just there to make money for someone else via widgets. Plenty of dissatisfation to go around. On the other hand, the first group of institutions is different in that respect because the "end" isn't a healthy profit, it's producing ideas or some other kind of service for the "good", (define as you will). Sure, there can be a lot of overlap between the public and private sectors, but in the best-case scenario that's a large part of the motivation. In fact, I think that blending the best of the nonprofit and for-profit worlds is the key to eliminating their respective drawbacks and getting rid of government intereference alltogether. I'd be glad to take this up further, if you don't find it utterly laughable. (snip) > If you can >scrape by, trading your free labor for experience isn't always a bad >bargain...it's worked for me more than once, and I sometimes I eventually >ended up on the payroll. >News flash: some of us were on the payroll from Day One. oh blah, blah: for the rest of us, it's just part of a strategy to get farther, faster on the continuum of doing what you want to do. If you want to be able to work at Prestegious Groups X Y or Z but they aren't hiring, what else can you do? Before you know it, you've got a resume with experience from X Y and Z on it. And since you had the guts to propose and design the internships yourself, you have better control over what you get experience in whereas Day One payrollees get stuck with the low-level stuff, longer. Use people's sense of self-interest to further your own, it's the easiest thing in the world. >I have never worked a minute of "free labor," not counting helping friends >move their stuff, you make it sound like volunteering is just busywork for dupes and suckers... >and not counting the thousands, nay, tens of thousands, of hours I have >spend on lists like this one. So when are you going to set up the Cypherpunks Mailing List 501(c)(3)? LOL! ~Faustine. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Jul 25 07:46:29 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:46:29 +0100 Subject: Choate Testing His ASAT Again? References: Message-ID: <3B5EDBC5.76B5E674@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> AAAAAAAAAARGH! The Colour Out of Space! Run away! Jim Windle wrote: > "A Reuters reporter saw a tapered object shaped like a trumpet bell falling diagonally through the western sky near West Chester, Pennsylvania, 20 miles from Philadelphia at about 6:20. The object emitted a lustrous rainbow of colors ranging from bright yellow on its downward-pointing flared end to light green and finally rust-colored red at the upward pointing tapered end." From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 25 05:53:17 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:53:17 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >The incident photons strike the mirror. > >A current is induced. > >That current is electrons moving in a resistor. Making heat, losing >energy. Note, we are NOT talking about photons here but J/C. > >That current re-emits photons that retain both frequency and temporal/time >related coherence (see Maxwell's Equations for more detail). However, the >total number of photons MUST be reduced from the incident beam. This also >means the incident photons can not be the same as the emitted photons. No. The electromagnetic field, as described by Maxwell's equations, is a statistical abstraction arising out of quantum electrodynamics, with strict limits on its applicability. When you try to deal with individual photons, you're going outside these limits, just as surely as you would be going outside the limits of classical thermodynamics if you e.g. tried to argue from the 2nd law in a simple enough quantum system like an isolated electron. The classical ED only gets you statistical results, and as such does not allow you to reason about the behavior of individual quanta. Reflection of light in a mirror happens at a scale beyond the reach of classical electrodynamics. The only thing that happens is that some photons are converted to heat, while others scatter as-is. (Besides, the above stuff is nonsense at its face, as one can clearly see from the fact that insulators can be reflective, and that an incident magnetic field does not visibly affect the reflectance of a conductive mirror.) Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Wed Jul 25 05:53:17 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:53:17 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Jim Choate wrote: >The incident photons strike the mirror. > >A current is induced. > >That current is electrons moving in a resistor. Making heat, losing >energy. Note, we are NOT talking about photons here but J/C. > >That current re-emits photons that retain both frequency and temporal/time >related coherence (see Maxwell's Equations for more detail). However, the >total number of photons MUST be reduced from the incident beam. This also >means the incident photons can not be the same as the emitted photons. No. The electromagnetic field, as described by Maxwell's equations, is a statistical abstraction arising out of quantum electrodynamics, with strict limits on its applicability. When you try to deal with individual photons, you're going outside these limits, just as surely as you would be going outside the limits of classical thermodynamics if you e.g. tried to argue from the 2nd law in a simple enough quantum system like an isolated electron. The classical ED only gets you statistical results, and as such does not allow you to reason about the behavior of individual quanta. Reflection of light in a mirror happens at a scale beyond the reach of classical electrodynamics. The only thing that happens is that some photons are converted to heat, while others scatter as-is. (Besides, the above stuff is nonsense at its face, as one can clearly see from the fact that insulators can be reflective, and that an incident magnetic field does not visibly affect the reflectance of a conductive mirror.) Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 07:14:49 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:14:49 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: > I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real > encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they The only serious encounter I would risk with anything, is by means of anonymized (including resistance to trace analysis) physical proxy. So the threshold is pretty high. Who do you think we are, marines? From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 07:14:49 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:14:49 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday) In-Reply-To: <002501c11225$c0877fc0$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote: > I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real > encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they The only serious encounter I would risk with anything, is by means of anonymized (including resistance to trace analysis) physical proxy. So the threshold is pretty high. Who do you think we are, marines? From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 13:16:33 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:16:33 -0400 Subject: Rep. Boucher says he wants to "Free Dmitry" and amend DMCA Message-ID: <20010725161633.B16729@cluebot.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45548,00.html Rep: Give Fair Use a Fair Shake By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 12:55 p.m. July 25, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Rep. Rick Boucher wants to spring a Russian programmer from jail. Boucher, a maverick Virginia Democrat, is hoping to rewrite a federal law that led FBI agents to arrest Dmitry Sklyarov in Las Vegas, Nevada, last week on copyright felony charges. "It's a broad overreach to have a person arrested under the federal criminal laws simply because they made software that circumvents a technological measure," Boucher said. Boucher said his office will draft a bill to be introduced later this year. The criminal law in question is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which was obscure enough when Congress enacted it in 1998, but has emerged as the one of the most important and far-reaching technology regulations. Sklyarov is charged with trafficking in a program to bypass Adobe's copy protection for e-books, a federal felony under the DMCA. "I think the current case adds impetus to the growing effort to fashion an amendment to the DMCA that would restore the classic balance (of fair use rights)," Boucher said. That promises to be anything but a trivial task. Leaders of the House and Senate subcommittees that oversee copyright law said Tuesday that they would not consider any changes to the DMCA. [...] From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Jul 25 13:23:30 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor Message-ID: Jim wrote: >One article expressing one persons opinions >49 articles expressing 49 peoples opinions. Yeah, I know it was a bit of a tangent. But read any one of them at random and I'll bet you'll come across a lot of things you didn't already know. And rather than taking one side "globalism is good" or "globalism is bad" (like the Salon piece), the ones I've read give plenty of justification for pros and cons of all kinds. The real enemy of the poor is complacency. ~Faustine. On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > But there's no real meat here--it's the kind of thing that tells you just > enough to make you feel like you know what you're talking about, but > doesn't go nearly deep enough to be worth anything. > > So what's on my summer reading list? The Institute for National Strategic > Studies and the National Defense University just came out with a > monstrously long (1124 pp.)two-volume compendium of essays: "The Global > Century: Globalization and National Security" that explores the > implications of globalism in 49 essays from every angle you can think of by > a collection of genuine heavy hitters. I think I'll certainly be better >off for having invested the time in reading it. > > here's a link to the pdf: > > http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/GlobalCentury/globcencont.html From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 25 16:27:50 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:27:50 -0700 Subject: So, what do the Russians think? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:25 PM -0400 7/25/01, Trei, Peter wrote: >One of the curious aspects of the whole Sklyarov >affair is the silence of the Russians. I've not heard >of any comment from the Russian government on >the US news, the Novosti press agency has >said nothing today or Tuesday (all I can check), >and TASS has a couple of headlines, but (as far >as I can tell) no editiorial material going either >way (I can't read the TASS articles without >a subscription). > >Most odd.... I'm not surprised that the Russian government is seemingly oblivious. Unless some crisis crosses a threshold to "infamy," like the arrest of Wen Ho Lee or the kid accused of being a spy in Russia, it's just "business as usual." (Though I was struck by how close the arrest of the "Russian hacker" was to the plot line of "Swordfish," where a Finnish hacker (who just happens to be named Torvalds) is arrested when he deplanes at LAX. Now if the Adobe hacker turns up dead and a microchip has been cut out of his arm, we'll know we're in a John Travolta movie.) Finally, it may be that the Russians just don't care. More arrests by the U.S. authorities means more chance of shaking down the Russian software industry for protection money. "You don't pay us, look what happens to you, comrade!" --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 13:41:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:41:17 -0400 Subject: Congress in action: Three years for "product tampering" Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010725164055.01ff9e10@mail.well.com> Title: Crime Subcommittee Hearing Thursday U.S. House of Representatives Committee on the Judiciary F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chairman News Advisory For immediate release Contact: Jeff Lungren/Terry Shawn July 25, 2001 (202) 225-2492 Crime Subcommittee Holds Hearing and Markup Thursday on Consumer Product Tampering Legislation What: Legislative hearing and markup on H.R. 2621, the "Consumer Product Protection Act of 2001" Who: Subcommittee on Crime - Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX), Chairman When: 2:00 p.m. Thursday, July 26, 2001 Where: 2237 Rayburn House Office Building Tracey Weaver was preparing her family a New Year's Eve dinner complete with dessert to be made from a box of cheesecake mix she had bought at the local market. When the box was opened, her husband found a coupon for a "Free Trip To Africa". It was really no coupon at all but a demand for all African- Americans to return to Africa and included racial slurs that understandably upset Mrs. Weaver's family. Under current law, tampering with a product's packaging is legal as long as the perpetrator does not cause the labeling to be false or misleading or adulterate the product. This legislation, H.R. 2621, would make tampering with a product's packaging a crime punishable by up to three years in jail. Problems... * Current consumer protection laws cover tampering which endangers the health or safety of consumers or renders the labeling of a product false or misleading. * Tampering which does not taint or contaminate the contents or the labeling of a product is not covered under federal criminal law. However, such tampering harms both the consumer and the manufacturer. * Package tampering has become more and more pervasive; Kraft Foods estimates that they have received nearly 100 complaints in the last five years but that many more cases are not reported to them. This Legislation will... * Make knowingly stamping, printing, placing or inserting writing in or on a consumer product prior to its sale a crime with penalties up three years imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $25,000 per offense. Witnesses: Rep. Melissa Hart (R-PA), sponsor of H.R. 2621; William Macleod, Partner, Collier Shannon Scott, PLLC, on behalf of the Grocery Manufacturers of America; David Zlotnick, Professor, Roger Williams University; and Tracey Weaver, Victim, Leavenworth, Washington. ###30### Terry A. Shawn Press Secretary Committee on the Judiciary 202.225.2498 From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 25 14:43:55 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:43:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washing tonpost.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tomorrow's Soldier David Alexander ISBN 0-380-79502-7 Chpt. 8 "War Beyond Tomorrow" On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > It may not be that easy. My understanding (based on various TV programs > broadcast back in the early 90's) is that there is a program called 'NEST', > which stands for something like Nuclear Emergency (mumble) Team, > tasked with dealing with this type of problem. > > One protection hinted is that strategically chosen points of transit > (bridges, > ports, tunnels, major highways, mail, baggage and freight facilities, etc) > have > detectors for nuclear materials. > > The thing is, while you can sheild a source to the point where it is not > a hazard, sheilding it to the point of *undetectability* is far harder task. > > If you detect even a single gamma ray of a certain frequency, or > betas or even alphas of certain energies, you *know* that a certain > isotope produced them. If the detectors note the presence of a > certain isotopes, they generate the appropriate alarms. > > There are also other detection systems - I've seen X-rays of entire > container trucks which were passing through the Chunnel - illegal > immigrants were quite visible inside the container. > > An attacker's best chance would be to place his weapon in a > container, heavily sheilded, and then to bury that in the middle of > a stack of other containers of heavy shielding in the hold of a > container ship, and plan to detonate it while still on board in a > target harbor. > > UPS probably would not work (besides, I think they have a > limit of around 90 lbs). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 25 14:45:11 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:45:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FBI SirCammed (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:21:35 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu, cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: FBI SirCammed http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB99601609210000000.djm July 25, 2001 Tech Center FBI Cyber Researcher Unleashes Virus That E-Mails Private Agency Documents By TED BRIDIS Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL WASHINGTON -- A researcher in the Federal Bureau of Investigation's cyber-protection unit unleashed a fast-spreading Internet virus that e-mailed private FBI documents to outsiders -- all on the eve of a Senate hearing into troubles at the unit. Although the Sircam virus didn't spread to other computers at the FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center, it did send at least eight documents to a number of outsiders. One, about the investigation into an unrelated virus, was marked "official use only." The Sircam virus has infected thousands of computers since its discovery last week. 1U.S. Pentagon Shuts Down Public Access to Web Sites (July 24) 2'Code Red' Web Virus May Attack Other Computers in Coming Weeks (July 23) FBI spokeswoman Deb Weierman said that no sensitive or classified information about continuing investigations was disclosed Tuesday. The "official use" designation protects documents from disclosure under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. It isn't uncommon for virus researchers to accidentally infect their own computers, but the mistake was particularly embarrassing because it occurred ahead of a Senate Judiciary panel's oversight hearing about the FBI cyber unit's effectiveness. Lawmakers were expected to focus on other agencies' failure to cooperate fully with the FBI center, and on a perceived lack of trust between the FBI and private-sector groups. The unit generally gets high remarks for its criminal investigations, and even critics say the unit is more effective than it was a year ago. "The effort here is not to embarrass anybody but to stress that a lot of work has to be done," said Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. Meanwhile, the White House has begun organizing a new early-warning network for Internet threats. But unlike the current system, it will be coordinated by the Pentagon, not the FBI. The mechanism for warning all U.S. military and civilian agencies -- and ultimately corporations -- will be dubbed the Cyber-Warning and Information Network, or "c-win." Organizers envision dozens of computer centers that could sound an alert when a threat is identified. The network is expected to begin operating in October. The FBI unit, which currently relays these warnings, came under sharp criticism from congressional auditors for issuing tardy alerts. Ms. Weierman, the FBI spokeswoman, called the new network a "useful mechanism" to offer the government a "technical capability that doesn't currently exist." The FBI, she said, wasn't concerned it would lose its warning responsibilities. Tuesday, at least three people said they received some of the FBI documents, including a 23-year-old Internet-security expert in Belgium, Niels Heinen. He operates a Web site that reports on Internet break-ins and speculated that the analyst, Vince Rowe, visited the site on the infected computer. Mr. Rowe didn't respond to a request for comment. Write to Ted Bridis at ted.bridis at wsj.com3 URL for this Article: http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB99601609210000000.djm Hyperlinks in this Article: (1) http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=e1-SB99601609210000000 (2) http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=e2-SB99601609210000000 (3) e3-SB99601609210000000 Copyright 嚙 2001 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Printing, distribution, and use of this material is governed by your Subscription Agreement and copyright laws. For information about subscribing, go to http://wsj.com -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 07:57:22 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:57:22 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: DMCA has pushed me to my limit. In-Reply-To: <3B59ADA6.27841.12ED9EB@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Using the methods of arithemetic encoding, a uniformly distributed > signal can be given any signature one desires. Using appropriate vehicles I can visit nearby planetary bodies. Have you, personally, written a piece of steganoware that will pass a statistical test suite in 90% of cases? From alqaeda at hq.org Wed Jul 25 17:03:51 2001 From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:03:51 -0700 Subject: Valenti: Music is for the ear. It's like words. Movies are not Message-ID: <3B5F5E67.F033B788@hq.org> >"We're dealing with vastly disparate art forms," said Jack Valenti, president of the Motion Picture Association of America. "Music is for the ear. It's like words. Movies are not."< Valenti is scum. *Dumbass* scum. But you knew that. >Pending bills by Lieberman and Rep. Steven Israel, D-N.Y., would prohibit as an "unfair or deceptive" practice, under regulations enforced by the Federal Trade Commission, the targeted marketing to minors of adult-oriented media products. Critics say the bill is unconstitutional.< Lieberman/Israel are scum giving Jews a bad name. Well, East Coasters, anyway. Oh shit, we have Feinstein. Oh well. Where's Buford when you really need him? http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA3Y90JLPC.html From stephanie.key at etransmail2.com Wed Jul 25 17:08:31 2001 From: stephanie.key at etransmail2.com (Stephanie Key) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:08:31 -0700 Subject: Product Give Away - Take 5 ! 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Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gmp216 at nyu.edu Wed Jul 25 14:11:32 2001 From: gmp216 at nyu.edu (Gregory M Pomerantz) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:11:32 -0400 Subject: cryptography license negotiation Message-ID: <2359ec23c7ff.23c7ff2359ec@homemail.nyu.edu> I am working on negotiating a licensing agreement for a large piece of software that contains a cryptographic component. I am trying to negotiate a warranty term that favors us in the event that the algorithm or implementation should prove insecure. Ideally I would like 1) disclosure of the algorithm and 2) a representation that cryptographic experts consider the algorithm is considered secure or at least appropriate to the use being made of it. Has anybody ever negotiated something like this with a software vendor? Can anyone produce sample language from a licensing agreement? Is there a better place I can ask this question? ("get a lawyer" is not a helpful response. IAAL). Thanks for your help gmp From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 08:20:09 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:20:09 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Choate Testing His ASAT Again? In-Reply-To: <3B5EDBC5.76B5E674@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Ken Brown wrote: > AAAAAAAAAARGH! The Colour Out of Space! Run away! Naw, only a High Triffid Alert. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 25 10:26:41 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: 25 Jul 2001 17:26:41 GMT Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3B5E66E7.19729.1368F157@localhost> Message-ID: <9jmvgh$mi5$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <3B5E66E7.19729.1368F157 at localhost>, Roy M. Silvernail wrote: >With an adapter, I can run a 802.11 >card from the CF socket, I think. (drivers might be tricky) You don't need an adapter: http://www.symbol.com/products/wireless/la4137.html It's an 802.11 card in a Compact Flash socket. - Ian From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 14:29:52 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:29:52 -0400 Subject: FC: GOP legislators to Supremes: Save our anti-Internet porn law! Message-ID: The amicus brief to be filed Friday: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/copa.congress.072501.html Politech archive on the Child Online Protection Act law and lawsuit: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=copa Supreme Court agrees to hear case: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02048.html Federal judge rules that COPA violates First Amendment: http://www.politechbot.com/p-00217.html Note from Bruce Taylor , who drafted the brief: >(we made changes to the cover and page 1 on Interest of Amici, since Senator >Coats cannot be an amicus because of his nomination to be Ambassador to >Germany) > >Attached is a corrected final Brief of Members of Congress in Ashcroft v >ACLU, No. 00-1293, to be filed Friday, July 27th, instead of tomorrow. > >We renamed it "COPA final USSC Cong amicus brief 7-27-01" > >Transmissions scrambled some formatting and we had to re-justify the margins >and re-send to the printer. This one should be fully justified, but >otherwise same text. If you copy or post, please use this one, which will >look like the printed one filed with the Court (hopefully). -Declan *********** http://www.politechbot.com/docs/copa.congress.072501.html Summary Of Argument The Court of Appeals committed clear error in its refusal to narrowly construe the Child Online Protection Act's definition of "Harmful To Minors," 47 U.S.C. 嚙 231 (e)(6), within a constitutionally valid scope and lend the necessary authoritative construction intended by Congress as a limitation on the test for what is "Obscene For Minors" to a constitutionally valid, non-geographic "adult" age community standard, rather than an unconstitutionally territorial geographic community standard. ACLU v. Reno, 217 F.3d 162, 173-78 (3d Cir. 2000), reh. denied (2000). Congress enacted COPA with specific recognition of this Court's mandate that the application of obscenity-related tests for separating pornography that may be regulated from First Amendment protected speech depends on the medium. FCC v. Pacifica Foundation, 438 U.S. 726, 750 (1978). The Congressional intent expressed in its Report of the House Committee on Commerce, H. Rept. No. 105-775, at 28 (1998) (House Report to accompany H.R. 3783, 105th Cong., 2d Sess.), was that COPA was to be adapted to the World Wide Web by using a "new" standard of what the American adult-age community as a whole would find prurient and offensive for minors in the probable recipient age group. The Third Circuit refused to adopt this Congressionally intended customization of the "harmful to minors" test and, by such refusal, interpreted the Act in an unconstitutional fashion. ACLU, 217 F.3d at 178. By doing so, that Court, as had the District Court below, failed in its duty to properly construe this federal statute so as to save it for valid application within constitutional boundaries. For these reasons, this Court should reverse the decision of the Court of Appeals, and remand the cause to the Third Circuit for a narrowing authoritative construction to guide the District Court in the trial on the merits. Remainder at: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/copa.congress.072501.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Jul 25 15:53:25 2001 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:53:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >One article expressing one persons opinions > >49 articles expressing 49 peoples opinions. > > Yeah, I know it was a bit of a tangent. But read any one of them at random > and I'll bet you'll come across a lot of things you didn't already know. Maybe, I read a shitload of 'books of articles' from this government agency or that contractor on a variety of issues. Most of them don't change except on a scale measured in decades. But at the same time I added it to my list because there were several subjects on there I'm very interested in (always good to throw more wood on the fire ;). What I found amusing is that you read the Salon article (probably w/o great enthusiasm considering it is Salon after all) and you had another text of articles you hadn't read but had already decided it was a worthy read and that you'd get something out of it. Especially since it was such 'weighty' material in two different contexts. I've got a math book I'm wading through that's like that. It's about 40 articles and I've been reading it for about a year now. I don't intend to repeat Tesla's mistake. He typically would read all books by an author in one sequence, and read nothing else. He considered it a measure of his discipline. He received a book by Virgil and found it likable. So he proceeded to order a complete set of works. Only to discover that it was over a 100 books. Needless to say he wasn't amused. He bought them, read them, and then swore to never read another book again without first finding out how many books the author had written. Probably not any more popular a viewpoint now than a tad over a hundred years ago. > And rather than taking one side "globalism is good" or "globalism is bad" > (like the Salon piece), the ones I've read give plenty of justification for > pros and cons of all kinds. I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global government or corporate enterprise. I want direct interaction of business in government to be prohibited. > The real enemy of the poor is complacency. The real enemy of all is death. Halt Passenger! As you are now, so once was I As I am now, so shall you be Prepare for death, and follow me! A New England Gravestone ;) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 15:05:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:05:56 -0400 Subject: GOP legislators to Supremes: Save our anti-Internet porn law! Message-ID: <20010725180556.A21459@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 09:12:50 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:12:50 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Air Force Turns 747 Into Holster for Giant Laser (washingtonpost.com) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010725084626.03742298@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > Or reduce the effectiveness of the detection system by clandestinely > "salting" vessels entering our ports with radio active dust with the > same energy signatures. Sort of a radio active chaff. The point of a clandestine WOMD attack is that there is no forewarning. Salting random vehicles will make some people way more paranoid that they already are. As to nukes, according to anecdotal evidence (a single former employee), UPS doesn't screen for fissible signatures. I very much doubt they screen for vanilla HE (which, unless well packaged, emanate telltale volatiles, and contain a high nitrogen concentration, which you could probably detect with proper activation spectrocopy, unless *very* well shielded, or packed with a shipment of nitrate fertilizer). Screening devices are expensive, and have a limited processvity -- but technology marches on, of course. If a country would want to nuke a country with few 10..100 devices, it will get them into the country, and there's jack you can do about that. The probability of detection would be very, very low. The reason it's not being done is 1) no point 2) basic milk of human kindness. Sooner or later some random ijit or random group of ijits is going to fry/poison/infect a few people, which will have some serious impact on security policy, and the style of living where people concentrate. I hope I'm not there when it happens. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Jul 25 18:17:15 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:17:15 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010725172956.037e20e0@idiom.com> I'm not sure which of the >s are Petro, Schliesser, Measl, or others, > >> >> We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect > the LEAs > >> >to enforce all laws that are on the books. I think this was Petro, who I think was a Marine, and therefore should know better. The Uniform Code of Military Justice *requires* soldiers to refuse to obey illegal orders. Police generally are required to uphold the Constitution, and no amount of weaseling about "I'm not the departmental legal counsel, I'm the guy with the blue suit" relieves them of that responsibility. There are substantial differences between these two situations - usually an illegal order to a soldier involves shooting people, while an unconstitutional action by a cop involves arresting people or serving warrants on them, which can be argued about later, so it's far more critical that a soldier individually do the right thing, even though an inappropriate refusal by a soldier can result in lots of dead people, while an incorrect refusal or inaction by a cop only results in somebody not getting arrested or the city's insurance company paying a bunch of lawyers for a lawsuit. > >> >> If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the > >> >legislature and the Executive branch. It's both. And enforcement of laws typically has a huge latitude - the DMCA doesn't say anything about refusing to give Dmitri a bail hearing, or whether to take every piece of electronics in a "hacker's" house. The "I know it when I see it" test for obscenity is very broad. And the property-forfeiture-for-drugs laws may allow police to steal anything nailed down or not if they think they can make a case that there might have been drugs around that the victim won't have the resources to successfully defend against, but don't require it, and enforcement seems suspiciously correlated with which police departments make a profit from doing it. > >> In the grand scheme of things, Ashcroft believes (or appears to) > >> in the Constitution. He may have some differences of opinion with many > >> or most on this list, but he believes in it. > >> That is better than we've had in at least 6 years, probably more. Certainly Janet Reno and Louis Freeh were a bad lot and we're well rid of them, but Ashcroft's belief in the Constitution certainly appears not to include the First Amendment. We'll see how much he likes the others as he goes along. > My point, which I obviously did not make clearly enough, >is that Ashcroft appears, unlike at least his immediate predecessor, >to believe in rule of law, rather than rule by force. > Another point you bring up is that a LEO should not enforce laws > that "clearly" violate the constitution. > > A LEO cannot do that *and still be a LEO*. He can refuse by > resigning, but if he simply takes the position that he will only enforce > laws he thinks are constitutional he causes a violation of one of the > fundamental underpinnings of the constitution, that all people are equal > under the law, and that the law is supposed to be equally applied. I strongly disagree. Let's start with a terminology rant - Cops used to call themselves "peace officers". Sure, it was propaganda, but the point is that they're there to "serve and protect" (at least for the upper classes.) Or they claimed they were in the "Justice" business. Now they're calling themselves "Law Enforcement", trying to use the culture's leftover respect for "law" as a protection of individual rights, rather than its current meaning of "whatever the legislature writes", whether that's special-interest support like the DMCA or religious/cultural preferences like the laws against some drugs, and trying to use this to justify the use of however much force it takes to force people to obey. No different from what an invading army does. If a cop believes that a law is unconstitutional or unjust, then if anything his job is not to resign and let someone else enforce it, but to prevent its enforcement, at least through inaction if not through active reorganization of the police force. If equal application of the law has a part to play here, it's in getting other cops NOT to impose injustice, not in copping out by imposing injustice himself or quitting. > That may be less than clear, let me try it another way: It was clear, just wrong - but go ahead :-) > One of the fundamental features of a society that is built around > the concept of "rule of law" is that the law is knowable by the people, > and that they have a reasonable expectation of the consequences should > they break that law. When you have a situation where you give carte > blanche to LEOs to decide for themselves what is constitutional, you > violate that. What one LEO may decide is perfectly constitutional, > another may believe is unconstitutional resulting in even more uneven > application of the law than we have today. [Example 1 - people don't know if they'll be pulled over by Good Cop or Bad Cop, especially near town border.] [Example 2 - Good Sheriff replaced by Officer Hardass. ] It's still wrong to enforce unjust laws, and also to enforce unconstitutional ones. If a law's on the books, the citizens have to decide individually whether to obey them. The examples given involved concealed handguns and searches for same - if police are doing unconstitutional searches, there are problems anyway. Problems with differing laws at borders are difficult anyway, but having a location where laws are enforced less strictly is certainly no risk for the neighbors, and we've already got enough laws that you're probably violating some of them without even realizing it. A friend of mine has a button that says "if the public were required to *know* all the laws, and not merely to obey them, there'd be a revolution tomorrow".... From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Jul 25 18:39:23 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:39:23 -0700 Subject: Assasination Politics in the Middle East In-Reply-To: <3B5CBD2A.28E74048@cnnic.cn> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010725181805.037e2940@idiom.com> At 05:11 PM 07/23/2001 -0700, Mr. Falun Gong wrote: >Ok, the Subject line is a bit of a stretch, as there's no anon payment, >but it is interesting nonetheless. > > Israel to look into Arafat murder ad > By SAUD ABU RAMADAN > > GAZA, July 23 (UPI) -- Israel's attorney general on Monday said he >would consider opening a criminal investigation into an advertisement that >urged anyone who had the opportunity to murder Palestinian leader Yasser >Arafat, the Haaretz newspaper reported. I saw a wire-service article the other day that said that Ariel Sharon's government had put out or endorsed a list of radical fanatic extremist Palestinian group leaders who were targets for assassination in revenge for the recent bombings in Israel. Perhaps the article got mangled in translation or I misread it because the train was noisy, but it sure looked that way. It didn't mention Arafat From tcmay at got.net Wed Jul 25 18:42:34 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:42:34 -0700 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" Message-ID: Cypherpunks, I've been getting anywhere from 10 to 30 "SirCam" worm messages a day. The volume is now declining. Most have attached files containing fragments of Microsoft Word documents, apparently extracted from the disk drive of the sender. Most are the usual garbage people write to each other, but some of the ones from corporations have been interesting. And this one, assuming it is real, seems to have orginated from within some department of the government called "NIPC." It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would send me something, so I expect a hoax. The attached filed, with the message, is 926 K, so I'm only enclosing a few tantalizing sections. I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages from some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason my e-mail address is in their address book. How could that happen? (BTW, many of the SirCam messages have clock dates which are wrong. This one is incorrectly dated "8/24/01".) At 2:39 PM -0400 8/24/01, NIPC Intern42 wrote: ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: message text Hi! How are you=3F I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later=2E Thanks ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary Content-Type: application/mixed; name="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" The NIPC and FedCIRC have recently received information on attempts to locate, obtain control of and plant new malicious code known as "W32-Leaves.worm" on computers previously infected with the SubSeven Trojan. The default ports for SubSeven to listen for network traffic are 16959/tcp and 27374/tcp, though the numbers can be changed. Full descriptions and removal instructions of a number of SubSeven variants can be found at various anti-virus firm Web sites, including the following: A computer security unit within the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation has detected a series of intrusions into U.S. government networks under an investigation code named Moonlight Maze, and the intrusions appear to have originated from Russia, an FBI official told Congress this week. A spokesman for the Russian embassy here today quoted the head of the press service for the Russian foreign intelligence service, Nikita Rabusov, as saying the Russian special services have "no relation whatsoever" to the theft of information from computer networks of the U.S. federal agencies. "American specialists have failed to establish from where this intrusion originated," the embassy official quoted Rabusov as saying in an interview with the Russian news agency Itar-Tass. "They only indicated that it comes from a software company said to be reverse-engineering the products of leading American software companies. Russian special services are not so stupid to undertake such an operation, in case the necessity arises, directly from Moscow." Please report computer crime to your local FBI office (www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or the NIPC, and to other appropriate authorities. Incidents may be reported online at www.nipc.gov/incident/cirr.htm. The NIPC Watch and Warning Unit also can be reached at (202) 323-3204/3205/3206, or nipc.watch at fbi.gov. References to ECONCOM are to be deleted ASAP from all departmental systems. SLAM DUNK cover to be vetted by NIPC for release to journalists. Oakland and Monterey offices to coordinate. Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of the public debate. Internal Memorandum. The FRENZY Conference was a fantastic showing of our capabilities for covert entry into target computers. PDs across the country are asking how they can get their own CARNIVORE systems. Here is one such request: "We've bought so many necessary items from vendors who attended the last FRENZY Conference ... the Conference was definitely one of the best I've attended. I was particularly impressed by how easy the Carnivore system was to set up." Rick Smithman, Criminalistics Bureau Administrator, Lodi Police Department With this thought in mind, The Laissez Faire City Times interviewed Ed Hertzog, editor of The Free Associator, an interesting e-zine that wants to facilitate Digital Anarchy. This interview is a little mirror of an underground, libertarian world, whose landmarks and standard-bearers are John Perry Barlow and Neal Stephenson, Nicholas Negroponte and Ayn Rand, Louis Rossetto and David Friedman. NIPC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. The take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as per AG Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be provided by NIPC. Plain clothes agents will be at the conference to render assistance. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 15:47:28 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:47:28 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445AD@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found sample service call.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: sample service call", was sent from Luc Kage and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 15:52:00 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:52:00 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445AF@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 礎繫罈羅糧疆.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 礎繫罈羅糧疆", was sent from 糧簪罈織簫 and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Wed Jul 25 10:06:52 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:06:52 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Lasers and ICBMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > A lot of the calculations being sketched out here, of watts/cm^2, > dwell times, gold coatings, etc. are slightly off-base. We've known > for 20+ years that the kill method is to use a short pulse to "push" > (not from the photons' momentum) in the thin wall of an ICBM's fuel Explosive ablation sounds like giant pulses, and chemicals lasers (the only ones known to provide lasing output in the ballpark) don't do these very well. So either you have to fire synchonously from many platforms, or have a veritable Death Star out there in LEO. Several of them, in fact, to maintain an umbrella at all times. > system. A very short pulse can produce enough ablative heating, a kind > of "puff," to trigger buckling of the very thin wall of an ICBM. During boost phase. Once past that, you need a kinetic kill or a nuke to damage a nuke (largely, by neutron flux, not the momentum due to explosive ablation). > So the theory goes. Countermeasures to traditional "heating" are so > easy to imagine (rapidly spinning the missile, deploying gold-plated > shrouds once exoatmosheric, changing the missile coating at random One would want to hide the real McCoys in metallized inflatable balloons anyway, to hide them in the decoy cloud. > intervals to foil laser frequencies, etc.) that the "punch" method > was developed. Gold or copper will do well for infrared, but aluminizing the hull will still do for a wide spectral window, and I haven't heard about FELs delivering the output necessary. > For knocking out satellites, particle beam weapons are the way to go. Do you think one could kill a hardened warhead in transit? > And don't believe Kosta Tsipis' 1978-79 article in Sci Am about how 50 > loads of fuel in the space shuttle would be needed for every firing of > a particle beam weapon. It would be interesting to see whether any of the proposed solar power satellites (which need realtime beamforming via a phased array to track the rectenna target on ground) could double as vehicle killers, if deployed massively. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Jul 25 17:08:31 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:08:31 -0500 Subject: Slashdot | Scientists Gearing Up to Publish Unrestricted Journals Message-ID: <3B5F5F7F.FBB590B6@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/science/01/07/25/2317215.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 16:09:10 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:09:10 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445B1@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found traffic regina CONSTABLE LIGHT WILL SAY.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: traffic regina CONSTABLE LIGHT WILL SAY", was sent from Les Poirier and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com Wed Jul 25 19:09:13 2001 From: cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com (cypherpunks-unedited at toad.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:09:13 Subject: Call me! Time:7:09:13 PM Message-ID: <200107252205.AAA16850@localhost.localdomain> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 487 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hilton at jam.rr.com Wed Jul 25 19:10:46 2001 From: hilton at jam.rr.com (biggerharddrive.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:10:46 Subject: LOTS OF DISK SPACE ON THE WEB Message-ID: <200107252317.QAA31494@ecotone.toad.com> GAIN ACCESS TO WEB DISK SPACE - NO TRANSFER COSTS - http://24.170.30.28 you get: 1. dedicated I.P. number ex. 201.201.201.13 2. dedicated disk drive to house your data 3. dedicated server to house your data 4. no (zilch / none / zero ) data transfer costs 5. free setup 6. available in 24 hours see cost details at: http://24.170.30.28 email us @ : mailto:sales at biggerharddrive.com?subject=more-information From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Wed Jul 25 16:21:29 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange, #436 Message-ID: <20010725232129.936E846A77@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #436 (July 25, 2001) ______________________________________________________ Your Membership Daily Exchange >>>>>>>>>>> Issue #436 <> 07-25-01 <<<<<<<<<<<< Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________ Removal/Unsubscribe instructions are included at the bottom for members who do not wish to receive additional issues of this publication. ______________________________________________________ You are a member in at least one of these programs - You should be in them all! http://www.BannersGoMLM.com http://www.ProfitBanners.com http://www.CashPromotions.com http://www.MySiteInc.com http://www.TimsHomeTownStories.com http://www.FreeLinksNetwork.com http://www.MyShoppingPlace.com http://www.BannerCo-op.com http://www.PutPEEL.com http://www.PutPEEL.net http://www.SELLinternetACCESS.com http://www.Be-Your-Own-ISP.com http://www.SeventhPower.com ______________________________________________________ Today's Special Announcement: I'll Put Your Ad on 2,000 Sites FREE! Free This Week Only, Just For Our Subscribers! Learn the secrets of marketing online on this global FREE teleseminar. Limited lines available, only three time slots available... reserve today. You will not be disappointed! I'll be your personal host. We operate several sites, all successful. I'll teach you what to do and how to do it! http://bannerco-op.com/freeseminar/ezine Michael T. Glaspie - Founder ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ >> Q & A QUESTIONS: - Can images be coded so they cannot be downloaded? ANSWERS: - Problems with my Beseen free hit counter? J. Shofstall: Work on your site without being online >> MEMBER SHOWCASES >> MEMBER *REVIEWS* - Sites to Review: #136, #137, & #138! - Site #135 Reviewed! ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<< Submit your questions & answers to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com QUESTIONS: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 16:46:53 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:46:53 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445B3@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Great deal of research is focused upon health and longevity.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Great deal of research is focused upon health and longevity", was sent from Yatrik Shah and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From a3495 at cotse.com Wed Jul 25 17:16:32 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor Message-ID: <29e05442450bf10c8a8342aa562322cc@freemail.cotse.com> Jim wrote: >What I found amusing is that you read the Salon article (probably w/o >great enthusiasm considering it is Salon after all) and you had another >text of articles you hadn't read but had already decided it was a worthy >read and that you'd get something out of it. Especially since it was such >'weighty' material in two different contexts. Hey now, I only got the hard copy last week...you can read a lot without having been through all 1124 pages!! What about the idea of "reputation capital" you people are always going on about, my prior knowledge of a couple of the authors makes me certain they wouldn't dream of putting their name on sloppy work... >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global >government or corporate enterprise. You mean global corporate enterprise, or corporate enterprise at all? >I want direct interaction of business in government to be prohibited. How? Any solution I can think of has the potential to be more problematic than the problem itself. ~Faustine. From schear at lvcm.com Wed Jul 25 20:52:24 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:52:24 -0700 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: <20010726024820.22702.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010725205050.037d3cc0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:48 AM 7/26/2001 +0000, Triffid Master wrote: >[ My PSINet email is history. ] > >Tim May wrote: ># ># I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages ># from some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason ># my e-mail address is in their address book. How could that happen? >I don't know, but I just got my first two mailings >from some poor sap, and it has the same intro. > "I send you this file in order to have your advice" >I emailed the person to let them know, asked >if they've visited my URL or anything. Gave >them the CERT URL. Again: > http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-22.html >---- >Tim May wrote: ># It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would ># send me something, so I expect a hoax. >No, it's real, and screamingly funny!!! >I received an executable ".xls.pif" version of >a spreadsheet called "2000 taxes". > From viewing *hundreds* of these using "strings" as >part of previous email monitoring duties, I can >tell just by looking at it that it's the real thing. >(If that showed anything interesting, I transferred >it to a PeeCee for further inspection.) >If anyone actually wants to run the "win32 executable", >email me for it. >Check it out: ># Salary ># David-AMD ># Lori-Dell ># Federal ># Withholding ># PAYROLL ># GMAC-Home Loan ># Bank One - Home Improvement ># HOUSE INTEREST ># Silver Lake-Time Share-2nd Home ># HOUSE - REAL ESTATE TAX ># GMAC ># Amount ># Taxes Paid @ Time of Withdrawal! ># Hartford was rolled to Dell-1099R: ># 1099R Shows Distribution Code "H" in Box 7 as rolled over. ># 401k WITHDRAWAL DELL ># INTEREST INCOME ># Bank One ># Bank of America ># CHARITY GIFTS ># Goodwill ># CAPITAL GAINS/LOSSES ># See Etrade Info >My experience says it is real. >---- >Tim May wrote: ># ># PC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile ># hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. ># ># The take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as ># per AG Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be ># provided by NIPC. Plain clothes agents will be at the conference ># to render assistance. >Holy Shit, Batman!!! >Too bad it didn't get out earlier! >Let me know if you want the whole thing put up on WWW. I've also gotten two such emailing. Fortunately (or unfortunately) the attachments were automatically detected by my system and deleted before I could read them. steve From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Jul 25 18:59:01 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:59:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: <29e05442450bf10c8a8342aa562322cc@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >What I found amusing is that you read the Salon article (probably w/o ^^^^^^^ > >great enthusiasm considering it is Salon after all) and you had another > >text of articles you hadn't read but had already decided it was a worthy > >read and that you'd get something out of it. Especially since it was such > >'weighty' material in two different contexts. > > Hey now, I only got the hard copy last week...you can read a lot without > having been through all 1124 pages!! I agree, I did say 'amusing'... > What about the idea of "reputation capital" you people are always going on > about, my prior knowledge of a couple of the authors makes me certain they > wouldn't dream of putting their name on sloppy work... I'm not one of those 'you people'. Arguments from authority are of no worth. Past performance is not a reliable metric for future performance. The ends never justify the means, each step must self-justify. > >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global > >government or corporate enterprise. > > You mean global corporate enterprise, or corporate enterprise at all? Actually both. The 1870 law which created the modern monster of a 'corporation' should be thrown out. Corporations, and other business organizations, should be able to sell to their like type across the relevant 'big pond'. A corporation should not be able to exist in two different countries as a single organization. > >I want direct interaction of business in government to be prohibited. > > How? Any solution I can think of has the potential to be more problematic > than the problem itself. So what solution(s) have you thought of? Quid pro Quo... Business is an expression of individual rights. Business should not be able to contribute in any way to the democratic process (there is a reason that business/commerce is mentioned the way it is in the Constitution... An observation that is sure to piss some C-A-C-L's off, but the reality is that in 'free market' economics ala Hayek or Von Mises the potential for 'Bill Gates' wealth is nil. A 'free market' system isn't about getting filthy rich. It's about participating in a 'community'. Bottom line, the world is the way it is because people make it that way. It is not an inviolate law of nature (or if you accept that then some other precepts become questionable; free will, rational, responsible, pre-meditation, etc. ). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From MakeMoneyNow at gmx.ch Wed Jul 25 07:12:13 2001 From: MakeMoneyNow at gmx.ch (Jerome Chapman) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:12:13 +0700 Subject: * Are You Too Busy Earning a Living to Make Any Money ? * Message-ID: <200107251704.f6PH4g108883@rigel.cyberpass.net> Simple Techniques YOU Can Use To Build An Internet Marketing Empire With Your Home PC ! *********************************************** Dear cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, Are you looking for a simple system that many online marketers (folks just like you) have used over the last several years to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars from their home PCs? A system that can literally be put into action within minutes and start earning you an Auto Pilot Income for years to come? 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From 1support at microsoft.com Wed Jul 25 21:40:34 2001 From: 1support at microsoft.com (1support at microsoft.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:40:34 Subject: Information You Requested from Microsoft.com Message-ID: NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THIS E-MAIL. THIS E-MAIL IS NOT MONITORED. Welcome to Microsoft Online ID secure Internet environment! Below is your membership information. Please keep this confirmation mail as a record of your password. Consider this information confidential and treat accordingly. Your Microsoft Online ID Password is: cypherpunks A Microsoft Online ID provides access to various Microsoft secured programs. Please check the Frequently Asked Questions and/or Help page of the program you are accessing for questions. Sincerely, Microsoft Online ID Administrator From subscriptions at mail2.npromotion.net Wed Jul 25 18:49:06 2001 From: subscriptions at mail2.npromotion.net (CDNut) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:49:06 -0400 Subject: Save on this week's HOT CDs and DVDs! Message-ID: <200107260149.f6Q1n6Q06379@mail2.npromotion.net> Notice: Video800.com's service and newsletter has been purchased by CDNUT. We would like to thank you for your support over the past few years. If you do not wish to receive the new CDNUT e-mail newsletter and special offer, please visit the link at the bottom of this message. A quick link is provided to remove you from the list. If on the other hand, you would like saving money on entertainment products. Please proceed to the www.cdnut.com and we will give you and additional 10% off our already great prices. Use coupon code: cdn20024 when checking out. ******************************************************************************* Check out what we have On Sale This Week! IN THIS EMAIL: ******************************************************************************* *And the winner is...Thanks to all of you who voted for our featured sale DVD *DVD, VHS and Music genre sale *Vote for next week's featured DVD sale *Register to win a chocolate dipped strawberry gift box from Shari's Berries *Check out our editor's Top 5 on DVD, VHS and in Music *Let us help you get in shape for summer with these great fitness titles OUR BIG WINNER FROM LAST WEEK'S EMAIL POLL WAS... ******************************************************************************** You asked for it, and were giving it to you...AKIRA on DVD for only $15.49, that's 38% off! Akira is slated to be the best release yet in Japanese Animation! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNPIO11538DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T ********************************************************************************** GENRE SALE ON SELECTED DVD, VHS AND MUSIC TITLES: ******************************************************************************* >>Horror: Valentine on DVD $14.99 Denise Richards and Marley Shelton star in this second slasher flick from Urban Legend (1998) director Jamie Blanks. Gruesome Valentine嚙編 Day cards forebode bloody retribution in this suspenseful horror. http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNWHV21187DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Drama: Pollock on DVD $19.99 Pollock was the first feature directed by actor Ed Harris, who also plays the title role. The movie also stars Val Kilmer and Jennifer Connelly and looks at the professional triumphs and personal tragedies of one of the art world嚙編 most important figures. http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNCTR6454DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Sci-Fi: Farscape #5 on DVD $16.99 SciFi and DVD go hand in hand嚙緣his award-winning show from the Sci-Fi Network contains two of the best episodes of the season: DNA Mad Scientist and They嚙緞e Got A Secret. http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNADVFDFS005DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Children: Thomas the Tank: Best of Percy on VHS $8.21 Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends: Best of Percy features the popular children嚙編 show star, Thomas the Tank Engine, in a series of episodes with his friend Percy. Kids love Thomas! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNANCH1252.3&Product=V&source=CDNUT0724T >>Rock/Pop/R&B: Cake "Comfort Eagle" on CD $13.49 Cake嚙編 all-purpose eclectic rock has a great vibe. 嚙磅hort Skirt/Long Jacket嚙 is the hot single from their latest release, Comfort Eagle. http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNSNY62132.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T >>Jazz: John Coltrane "Very Best of John Coltrane" on CD $13.99 Saxophonist John Coltrane was among the most important, and most controversial, figures in jazz. This new CD contains classic Coltrane plus a previously unreleased song. http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNUNIV549913.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T **************************************************************************************** THE VOTING (AND THE SALE) STARTS HERE *********************************************************************************** This is your chance to Vote again for the the DVD you want to see on sale in our next email. It's up to you to decide which item gets the biggest price slash. Your opinion counts, so vote today! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=poll&id=6&source=CDNUT0724T >>The Brothers, current price $19.99 SRP: $24.95, save 20% Romantic Comedy: Starring D.L. Hughley and Bill Bellamy http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNCTR6394DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>American Pie: Ultimate Edition, current price $24.99 SRP: $29.98, save 17%! Comedy: Starring Jason Biggs and Chris Klein http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNMHV21455DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Head Over Heels, current price $22.99 SRP: 26.98, save 15%! Comedy: Starring Freddie Prinze, Jr and Monica Potter http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNMHV20937DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Grey Gardens, current price $29.99 SRP: $39.95, save 25%! Criterion Collection: Documentary http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNCRRN300DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T *********************************************************************************** CHOCOLAT ON DVD AUGUST 8TH: ****************************************************************************************** >>Are you a chocolate lover? We have a prize just for you...To celebrate the release of the Academy Award Winning movie Chocolat, starring Johnny Depp and Juliette Binoche, we're giving away ten (10) fantastic chocolate dipped strawberry gift boxes from Shari's Berries. Winners will be selected on August 8th, so don't wait to enter! Enter the contest: http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=contest&c%5Fid=6&&source=CDNUT0724T Buy the DVD: http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&Product=D&sku=NSYNWD21682DVD&source=CDNUT0724T ******************************************************************************************** OUR EDITOR'S TOP PICKS: ******************************************************************************** >>Thirteen Days on DVD $19.18 Drama: Starring Kevin Costner and Steven Culp http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNNEWL5202DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Family Man on DVD $19.49 Comedy: Starring Nicholas Cage and Tea Leoni http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNMHV20941DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Die Hard 3-Pack Ultimate Edition on DVD $57.59 Action: Starring Bruce Willis http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNFOX2001261DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Jurassic Park & Lost World Collectors Edition on DVD $33.77 Sci-Fi: Starring Sam Neil, Laura Dern and Jeff Goldblum http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNMHV21113DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Sweet November on DVD $19.99 Romantic Drama: Starring Keanu Reeves and Charlize Theron http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNWHV18997DVD&Product=D&source=CDNUT0724T >>Dr. T & The Women on VHS $10.99 Comedy: Starring Richard Gere, Helen Hunt and Tara Reid http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNLIV11551.3&Product=V&source=CDNUT0724T >>Sex & The City: Complete Second Season (4-Pack Set) on VHS $34.99 Comedy: Starring Sarah Jessica Parker, Kristen Davis, Kim Cattrall and Cynthia Nixon http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNHBO99265.3&Product=V&source=CDNUT0724T >>Book of Pooh on VHS $16.99 Children: Starring non-other than Pooh, himself! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNWD22024.3&Product=V&source=CDNUT0724T >>Pilates: Mat Based Workout on VHS $10.33 Fitness: A great new way to get into shape! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNLTS1233.3&Product=V&source=CDNUT0724T >>Living Yoga - A.M./P.M. Yoga on VHS $12.99 Fitness and Well-being http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNLTS1065.3&Product=V&source=CDNUT0724T >>N-Sync "Celebrity" on CD $12.99 Pop: Features the hot single "Pop" - NEW RELEASE! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNJIV41758.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T >>Alicia Keys "Songs in A Minor" on CD $12.99 Pop & R&B: Features "Fallin'" http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNJRCD20002.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T >>Tracy Byrd "Ten Rounds" on CD $12.99 - NEW RELEASE! Country: Features 12 new songs plus a bonus track, "Keeper of the Stars" http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNRCA67009.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T >>Melissa Etheridge "Skin" on CD $13.29 Rock: Contains hot new hits from Melissa http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNUNIV548661.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T >>Enya "Day Without Rain" on CD $13.75 Pop: Features the hit "A Day Without Rain" http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=product&sku=NSYNWB47426.2&Product=M&source=CDNUT0724T ****************************************************************************************** THERE IS STILL TIME TO GET INTO SHAPE FOR SUMMER: ***************************************************************************************** With the summer season in full swing, there's isn't a better way to get in shape than with one of our fitness titles. We hand picked our most popular DVDs and videos to help you look your best this summer! http://www.cdnut.com/responsys.asp?page=specials&Product=U&Spec%5FName=26&&source=CDNUT0724T *********************************************************************************** ----------------------------- You are subscribed to the CDNut list as cypherpunks at toad.com . To unsubscribe go to this URL with your web browser: http://mail2.npromotion.net/unsub.php?nmuid=400953&em=cypherpunks59SVJ95toad.com From mail0719 at btamail.net.cn Wed Jul 25 22:05:06 2001 From: mail0719 at btamail.net.cn (James K) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:05:06 Subject: FINALLY!!! A REAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!!! Message-ID: <200107251941.f6PJfk118156@rigel.cyberpass.net> For a limited time, we are offering a FREE WEBSITE that will promote your service or product. This website will be custom designed for you and your needs. 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We make every effort to insure that the recipients of our direct marketing are those individuals who have asked to receive additional information on promotional offers from companies with whom we trade mailing list. If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please email us at removemyname at whereismysiteranked.com. You may also send us a remove request via snail mail at RemoveMyName 3747 Beltline Rd. # 225 Addison, TX 75001, or you may phone us at 972-614-1140. Again we apologize if this message has reached you in error. ************************* From mail0719 at btamail.net.cn Wed Jul 25 22:05:06 2001 From: mail0719 at btamail.net.cn (James K) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:05:06 Subject: FINALLY!!! A REAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!!! Message-ID: <200107251649.f6PGnKq04672@ak47.algebra.com> For a limited time, we are offering a FREE WEBSITE that will promote your service or product. This website will be custom designed for you and your needs. Our staff of graphic designers, web designers and our marketing team will work with you to design a site that will grab attention and get your product or service sold!!! If your FREE WEBSITE does not appear within the first 20 listings on the major search engines, you are not able to easily gain new clients for your business - because they can't find you!!! Our staff will get your FREE WEBSITE ranked in the top of the search engines so that when the estimated one million internet users today go shopping for what you sell, they will see your new website. They will buy from someone, shouldn't it be you? Millions of dollars are being spent on the Internet every day, What percentage of that do you want to receive??? Click on the link below to find out how to obtain your FREE WEBSITE!!! www.whereismysiteranked.com/freewebsite.htm Thank you again, James Kennsley III WhereIsMySiteRanked.com ************************* We apologize if you received this advertisement by mistake. We make every effort to insure that the recipients of our direct marketing are those individuals who have asked to receive additional information on promotional offers from companies with whom we trade mailing list. If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please email us at removemyname at whereismysiteranked.com. You may also send us a remove request via snail mail at RemoveMyName 3747 Beltline Rd. # 225 Addison, TX 75001, or you may phone us at 972-614-1140. Again we apologize if this message has reached you in error. ************************* From mail0719 at btamail.net.cn Wed Jul 25 22:05:06 2001 From: mail0719 at btamail.net.cn (James K) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:05:06 Subject: FINALLY!!! A REAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!!! Message-ID: <200107261247.FAA13185@toad.com> For a limited time, we are offering a FREE WEBSITE that will promote your service or product. This website will be custom designed for you and your needs. Our staff of graphic designers, web designers and our marketing team will work with you to design a site that will grab attention and get your product or service sold!!! If your FREE WEBSITE does not appear within the first 20 listings on the major search engines, you are not able to easily gain new clients for your business - because they can't find you!!! Our staff will get your FREE WEBSITE ranked in the top of the search engines so that when the estimated one million internet users today go shopping for what you sell, they will see your new website. They will buy from someone, shouldn't it be you? Millions of dollars are being spent on the Internet every day, What percentage of that do you want to receive??? Click on the link below to find out how to obtain your FREE WEBSITE!!! www.whereismysiteranked.com/freewebsite.htm Thank you again, James Kennsley III WhereIsMySiteRanked.com ************************* We apologize if you received this advertisement by mistake. 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Our staff of graphic designers, web designers and our marketing team will work with you to design a site that will grab attention and get your product or service sold!!! If your FREE WEBSITE does not appear within the first 20 listings on the major search engines, you are not able to easily gain new clients for your business - because they can't find you!!! Our staff will get your FREE WEBSITE ranked in the top of the search engines so that when the estimated one million internet users today go shopping for what you sell, they will see your new website. They will buy from someone, shouldn't it be you? Millions of dollars are being spent on the Internet every day, What percentage of that do you want to receive??? Click on the link below to find out how to obtain your FREE WEBSITE!!! www.whereismysiteranked.com/freewebsite.htm Thank you again, James Kennsley III WhereIsMySiteRanked.com ************************* We apologize if you received this advertisement by mistake. We make every effort to insure that the recipients of our direct marketing are those individuals who have asked to receive additional information on promotional offers from companies with whom we trade mailing list. If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please email us at removemyname at whereismysiteranked.com. You may also send us a remove request via snail mail at RemoveMyName 3747 Beltline Rd. # 225 Addison, TX 75001, or you may phone us at 972-614-1140. Again we apologize if this message has reached you in error. ************************* From mail0719 at btamail.net.cn Wed Jul 25 22:05:06 2001 From: mail0719 at btamail.net.cn (James K) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:05:06 Subject: FINALLY!!! A REAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!!! Message-ID: <200107251558.IAA29372@ecotone.toad.com> For a limited time, we are offering a FREE WEBSITE that will promote your service or product. This website will be custom designed for you and your needs. Our staff of graphic designers, web designers and our marketing team will work with you to design a site that will grab attention and get your product or service sold!!! If your FREE WEBSITE does not appear within the first 20 listings on the major search engines, you are not able to easily gain new clients for your business - because they can't find you!!! Our staff will get your FREE WEBSITE ranked in the top of the search engines so that when the estimated one million internet users today go shopping for what you sell, they will see your new website. They will buy from someone, shouldn't it be you? Millions of dollars are being spent on the Internet every day, What percentage of that do you want to receive??? Click on the link below to find out how to obtain your FREE WEBSITE!!! www.whereismysiteranked.com/freewebsite.htm Thank you again, James Kennsley III WhereIsMySiteRanked.com ************************* We apologize if you received this advertisement by mistake. We make every effort to insure that the recipients of our direct marketing are those individuals who have asked to receive additional information on promotional offers from companies with whom we trade mailing list. If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please email us at removemyname at whereismysiteranked.com. You may also send us a remove request via snail mail at RemoveMyName 3747 Beltline Rd. # 225 Addison, TX 75001, or you may phone us at 972-614-1140. Again we apologize if this message has reached you in error. ************************* From measl at mfn.org Wed Jul 25 20:15:38 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:15:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010725172956.037e20e0@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Bill Stewart wrote: > I'm not sure which of the >s are Petro, Schliesser, Measl, or others, These are not me (Measl), nor Schilesser, so that only leaves Petro :-) Thank you Bill, for a much clearer statement of what I was *trying* to impart. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysdmin at mfn.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >> We still live in a country that has laws, and we *should* expect > > the LEAs > > >> >to enforce all laws that are on the books. > > I think this was Petro, who I think was a Marine, and therefore should know > better. > The Uniform Code of Military Justice *requires* soldiers to > refuse to obey illegal orders. > Police generally are required to uphold the Constitution, > and no amount of weaseling about "I'm not the departmental legal counsel, > I'm the guy with the blue suit" relieves them of that responsibility. > There are substantial differences between these two situations - > usually an illegal order to a soldier involves shooting people, > while an unconstitutional action by a cop involves arresting people > or serving warrants on them, which can be argued about later, > so it's far more critical that a soldier individually do the right thing, > even though an inappropriate refusal by a soldier can result in lots of > dead people, while an incorrect refusal or inaction by a cop > only results in somebody not getting arrested or the > city's insurance company paying a bunch of lawyers for a lawsuit. > > > >> >> If you have a problem with the laws, it's not the LEAs fault, it's the > > >> >legislature and the Executive branch. > > It's both. And enforcement of laws typically has a huge latitude - > the DMCA doesn't say anything about refusing to give Dmitri a bail hearing, > or whether to take every piece of electronics in a "hacker's" house. > The "I know it when I see it" test for obscenity is very broad. > And the property-forfeiture-for-drugs laws may allow police to > steal anything nailed down or not if they think they can make a case > that there might have been drugs around that the victim won't have > the resources to successfully defend against, but don't require it, > and enforcement seems suspiciously correlated with which police > departments make a profit from doing it. > > > >> In the grand scheme of things, Ashcroft believes (or appears to) > > >> in the Constitution. He may have some differences of opinion with many > > >> or most on this list, but he believes in it. > > >> That is better than we've had in at least 6 years, probably more. > > Certainly Janet Reno and Louis Freeh were a bad lot and we're well rid of them, > but Ashcroft's belief in the Constitution certainly appears not to > include the First Amendment. We'll see how much he likes the others > as he goes along. > > > My point, which I obviously did not make clearly enough, > >is that Ashcroft appears, unlike at least his immediate predecessor, > >to believe in rule of law, rather than rule by force. > > > > > Another point you bring up is that a LEO should not enforce laws > > that "clearly" violate the constitution. > > > > A LEO cannot do that *and still be a LEO*. He can refuse by > > resigning, but if he simply takes the position that he will only enforce > > laws he thinks are constitutional he causes a violation of one of the > > fundamental underpinnings of the constitution, that all people are equal > > under the law, and that the law is supposed to be equally applied. > > I strongly disagree. > Let's start with a terminology rant - > Cops used to call themselves "peace officers". Sure, it was propaganda, > but the point is that they're there to "serve and protect" (at least for > the upper classes.) > Or they claimed they were in the "Justice" business. > Now they're calling themselves "Law Enforcement", trying to use the > culture's leftover respect for "law" as a protection of individual rights, > rather than its current meaning of "whatever the legislature writes", > whether that's special-interest support like the DMCA or > religious/cultural preferences like the laws against some drugs, > and trying to use this to justify the use of however much force it takes > to force people to obey. No different from what an invading army does. > > If a cop believes that a law is unconstitutional or unjust, > then if anything his job is not to resign and let someone else enforce it, > but to prevent its enforcement, at least through inaction > if not through active reorganization of the police force. > If equal application of the law has a part to play here, > it's in getting other cops NOT to impose injustice, > not in copping out by imposing injustice himself or quitting. > > > > > That may be less than clear, let me try it another way: > > It was clear, just wrong - but go ahead :-) > > > One of the fundamental features of a society that is built around > > the concept of "rule of law" is that the law is knowable by the people, > > and that they have a reasonable expectation of the consequences should > > they break that law. When you have a situation where you give carte > > blanche to LEOs to decide for themselves what is constitutional, you > > violate that. What one LEO may decide is perfectly constitutional, > > another may believe is unconstitutional resulting in even more uneven > > application of the law than we have today. > > [Example 1 - people don't know if they'll be pulled over by Good > Cop or Bad Cop, especially near town border.] > [Example 2 - Good Sheriff replaced by Officer Hardass. ] > > It's still wrong to enforce unjust laws, and also to enforce > unconstitutional ones. > If a law's on the books, the citizens have to decide individually whether > to obey them. > The examples given involved concealed handguns and searches for same - > if police are doing unconstitutional searches, there are problems anyway. > Problems with differing laws at borders are difficult anyway, > but having a location where laws are enforced less strictly is certainly > no risk for the neighbors, and we've already got enough laws that you're > probably violating some of them without even realizing it. > > A friend of mine has a button that says "if the public were required to > *know* all the laws, and not merely to obey them, there'd be a revolution > tomorrow".... > > > > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Wed Jul 25 19:16:53 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:16:53 -0400 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" Message-ID: NIPC=National Infrastructure Protection Center -- On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:42:34 Tim May wrote: > >Cypherpunks, > >I've been getting anywhere from 10 to 30 "SirCam" worm messages a >day. The volume is now declining. Most have attached files containing >fragments of Microsoft Word documents, apparently extracted from the >disk drive of the sender. Most are the usual garbage people write to >each other, but some of the ones from corporations have been >interesting. And this one, assuming it is real, seems to have >orginated from within some department of the government called "NIPC." > >It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would send >me something, so I expect a hoax. > >The attached filed, with the message, is 926 K, so I'm only enclosing >a few tantalizing sections. > >I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages from >some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason my e-mail >address is in their address book. How could that happen? > >(BTW, many of the SirCam messages have clock dates which are wrong. >This one is incorrectly dated "8/24/01".) > >At 2:39 PM -0400 8/24/01, NIPC Intern42 wrote: >------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Content-Disposition: message text > >Hi! How are you=3F > >I send you this file in order to have your advice > >See you later=2E Thanks > >------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary >Content-Type: application/mixed; name="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" > > >The NIPC and FedCIRC have recently received information on attempts >to locate, obtain control of and plant new malicious code known as >"W32-Leaves.worm" on computers previously infected with the SubSeven >Trojan. > >The default ports for SubSeven to listen for network traffic are >16959/tcp and 27374/tcp, though the numbers can be changed. Full >descriptions and removal instructions of a number of SubSeven >variants can be found at various anti-virus firm Web sites, including >the following: > > > >A computer security unit within the U.S. Federal Bureau of >Investigation has detected a series of intrusions into U.S. >government networks under an investigation code named Moonlight Maze, >and the intrusions appear to have originated from Russia, an FBI >official told Congress this week. A spokesman for the Russian embassy >here today quoted the head of the press service for the Russian >foreign intelligence service, Nikita Rabusov, as saying the Russian >special services have "no relation whatsoever" to the theft of >information from computer networks of the U.S. federal agencies. > >"American specialists have failed to establish from where this >intrusion originated," the embassy official quoted Rabusov as saying >in an interview with the Russian news agency Itar-Tass. "They only >indicated that it comes from a software company said to be >reverse-engineering the products of leading American software >companies. Russian special services are not so stupid to undertake >such an operation, in case the necessity arises, directly from >Moscow." > >Please report computer crime to your local FBI office >(www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or the NIPC, and to other appropriate >authorities. Incidents may be reported online at >www.nipc.gov/incident/cirr.htm. The NIPC Watch and Warning Unit also >can be reached at (202) 323-3204/3205/3206, or nipc.watch at fbi.gov. > >References to ECONCOM are to be deleted ASAP from all departmental >systems. SLAM DUNK cover to be vetted by NIPC for release to >journalists. Oakland and Monterey offices to coordinate. > > >Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal >Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center >(NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary >Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June >29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final >exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." >Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of >the public debate. > > >Internal Memorandum. The FRENZY Conference was a fantastic showing of >our capabilities for covert entry into target computers. PDs across >the country are asking how they can get their own CARNIVORE systems. >Here is one such request: > >"We've bought so many necessary items from vendors who attended the >last FRENZY Conference ... the Conference was definitely one of the >best I've attended. I was particularly impressed by how easy the >Carnivore system was to set up." > >Rick Smithman, Criminalistics Bureau Administrator, Lodi Police Department > > > >With this thought in mind, The Laissez Faire City Times interviewed >Ed Hertzog, editor of The Free Associator, an interesting e-zine that >wants to facilitate Digital Anarchy. This interview is a little >mirror of an underground, libertarian world, whose landmarks and >standard-bearers are John Perry Barlow and Neal Stephenson, Nicholas >Negroponte and Ayn Rand, Louis Rossetto and David Friedman. > > >NIPC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile >hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. The >take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as per AG >Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be provided by NIPC. >Plain clothes agents will be at the conference to render assistance. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 19:39:00 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:39:00 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445B9@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found fakstransfrontier.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "fakstransfrontier", was sent from Ave Poom and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From frissell at panix.com Wed Jul 25 19:44:11 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:44:11 -0400 Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010725223953.036c3ec0@frissell@brillig.panix.c om> At 05:53 PM 7/25/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global >government or corporate enterprise. I want direct interaction of business >in government to be prohibited. Great idea. As Frank Chodorov suggested during the McCarthy Era. "Worried about communists in government jobs? Just get rid of the government jobs." If we get rid of the government, no business involvement. Only practical way of accomplishing same. DCF ---- "The government is just people." "People, my eye, they're Democrats." --The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) From frissell at panix.com Wed Jul 25 19:44:11 2001 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:44:11 -0400 Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010725223953.036c3ec0@frissell@brillig.panix.com> At 05:53 PM 7/25/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global >government or corporate enterprise. I want direct interaction of business >in government to be prohibited. Great idea. As Frank Chodorov suggested during the McCarthy Era. "Worried about communists in government jobs? Just get rid of the government jobs." If we get rid of the government, no business involvement. Only practical way of accomplishing same. DCF ---- "The government is just people." "People, my eye, they're Democrats." --The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Wed Jul 25 19:50:30 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:50:30 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445BB@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found MEDIDAS-PESOS-PRESIONES.xls.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: MEDIDAS-PESOS-PRESIONES", was sent from Benicio Molina Delgado and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 25 23:10:14 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 23:10:14 -0700 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: <20010726011520.A2642@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010725231014.009f7c10@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:15 AM 7/26/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >There seem to be three explanations. Yes. But we can assume that TM knows who NIPC are. (And vice-versa :-) Ergo, this is Tim's humor. But it almost caught me too. >1. Tim is having some fun with us. It would be easy for him to do so, and >NIPC (an FBI subagency) has been in the news today, with a WSJ article >this morning posted to the list and a Senate hearing this afternoon. >Tim's written similar things before and posted them straight-faced: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01332.html > >2. Someone is spoofing NIPC email and having fun with Tim. > >3. This really did originate from within NIPC and is a major >cypherpunk intelligence find. The WSJ article >(http://www.politechbot.com/p-02306.html) says NIPC has been hit by >Sircam, which scans hard drives for email addresses in documents and >mail archives, according to descriptions I've read. Reports say Sircam >emails working documents (in My Documents or whatnot folder) and this >could have happened. > >-Declan > > > >On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:42:34PM -0700, Tim May wrote: >> Cypherpunks, >> >> I've been getting anywhere from 10 to 30 "SirCam" worm messages a >> day. The volume is now declining. Most have attached files containing >> fragments of Microsoft Word documents, apparently extracted from the >> disk drive of the sender. Most are the usual garbage people write to >> each other, but some of the ones from corporations have been >> interesting. And this one, assuming it is real, seems to have >> orginated from within some department of the government called "NIPC." >> >> It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would send >> me something, so I expect a hoax. >> >> The attached filed, with the message, is 926 K, so I'm only enclosing >> a few tantalizing sections. >> >> I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages from >> some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason my e-mail >> address is in their address book. How could that happen? >> >> (BTW, many of the SirCam messages have clock dates which are wrong. >> This one is incorrectly dated "8/24/01".) >> >> At 2:39 PM -0400 8/24/01, NIPC Intern42 wrote: >> ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Content-Disposition: message text >> >> Hi! How are you=3F >> >> I send you this file in order to have your advice >> >> See you later=2E Thanks >> >> ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary >> Content-Type: application/mixed; name="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 >> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" >> >> >> The NIPC and FedCIRC have recently received information on attempts >> to locate, obtain control of and plant new malicious code known as >> "W32-Leaves.worm" on computers previously infected with the SubSeven >> Trojan. >> >> The default ports for SubSeven to listen for network traffic are >> 16959/tcp and 27374/tcp, though the numbers can be changed. Full >> descriptions and removal instructions of a number of SubSeven >> variants can be found at various anti-virus firm Web sites, including >> the following: >> >> >> >> A computer security unit within the U.S. Federal Bureau of >> Investigation has detected a series of intrusions into U.S. >> government networks under an investigation code named Moonlight Maze, >> and the intrusions appear to have originated from Russia, an FBI >> official told Congress this week. A spokesman for the Russian embassy >> here today quoted the head of the press service for the Russian >> foreign intelligence service, Nikita Rabusov, as saying the Russian >> special services have "no relation whatsoever" to the theft of >> information from computer networks of the U.S. federal agencies. >> >> "American specialists have failed to establish from where this >> intrusion originated," the embassy official quoted Rabusov as saying >> in an interview with the Russian news agency Itar-Tass. "They only >> indicated that it comes from a software company said to be >> reverse-engineering the products of leading American software >> companies. Russian special services are not so stupid to undertake >> such an operation, in case the necessity arises, directly from >> Moscow." >> >> Please report computer crime to your local FBI office >> (www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or the NIPC, and to other appropriate >> authorities. Incidents may be reported online at >> www.nipc.gov/incident/cirr.htm. The NIPC Watch and Warning Unit also >> can be reached at (202) 323-3204/3205/3206, or nipc.watch at fbi.gov. >> >> References to ECONCOM are to be deleted ASAP from all departmental >> systems. SLAM DUNK cover to be vetted by NIPC for release to >> journalists. Oakland and Monterey offices to coordinate. >> >> >> Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal >> Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center >> (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary >> Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June >> 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final >> exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." >> Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of >> the public debate. >> >> >> Internal Memorandum. The FRENZY Conference was a fantastic showing of >> our capabilities for covert entry into target computers. PDs across >> the country are asking how they can get their own CARNIVORE systems. >> Here is one such request: >> >> "We've bought so many necessary items from vendors who attended the >> last FRENZY Conference ... the Conference was definitely one of the >> best I've attended. I was particularly impressed by how easy the >> Carnivore system was to set up." >> >> Rick Smithman, Criminalistics Bureau Administrator, Lodi Police Department >> >> >> >> With this thought in mind, The Laissez Faire City Times interviewed >> Ed Hertzog, editor of The Free Associator, an interesting e-zine that >> wants to facilitate Digital Anarchy. This interview is a little >> mirror of an underground, libertarian world, whose landmarks and >> standard-bearers are John Perry Barlow and Neal Stephenson, Nicholas >> Negroponte and Ayn Rand, Louis Rossetto and David Friedman. >> >> >> NIPC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile >> hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. The >> take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as per AG >> Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be provided by NIPC. >> Plain clothes agents will be at the conference to render assistance. From lauramalves at netvisao.pt Wed Jul 25 15:16:05 2001 From: lauramalves at netvisao.pt (Laura Alves) Date: 25 Jul 2001 23:16:05 +0100 Subject: Turn $25 into unlimited CASH income. Easy & Legal Message-ID: <200107260036.TAA24113@einstein.ssz.com> (This is a ONE TIME EMAIL, please click delete and accept my apologies if you are not interested in making a legal CASH income by investing a small amount of time and money) Dear Entrepreneur: If you've read this far, chances are you're currently working in a home business, or have in the past. Unfortunately, there's also a 90% or better chance that you aren't seeing the kind of income you had hoped for either. If you're honest with yourself, you know exactly what I'm saying. You did everything you were told to do, but it just hasn't happened for you, time and time again. Sound familiar? Spend a fraction of the time you would at most day jobs or home businesses and make some cold, hard, CASH!!!! I send out these emails, as many as I can, and people send me cash in the mail for information that I just email back to them. It is all completely legal, and I get to make that walk to the mailbox every day knowing that it is full of $5 bills for me!! What you are about to read is very exciting. Prepare to be amazed. It will explain how almost anyone can legally make a lot of money, in CASH!!! You don't need to have a lot of experience, time, or money to do this, but if you do - all the better! The most important thing you need is the desire to get ahead, a bit of spare time, and an entrepreneurial spirit. Have you been disappointed with a lot of so-called "opportunities" or all the hassles associated with selling on online auctions? This is different! I'm sure you've heard that before, but please take a few minutes to go through the plan, and make sure you read all of the information. Make this the one you act on! ================================================== DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: "Making over half a million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time" THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost." DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610, 470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ================================================================ Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and voila ... 3 weeks later the money started to come in! First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290, 000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything." More testimonials later but first, ============ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ======== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. =========== For each report, send $5 CASH (US CURRENCY), THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS (plus an alternate email address, at a different domain name if possible, if you have one, in case of unforeseen problems) to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25. === Within a few days you will receive, via email, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a copy on a floppy disk of these reports and keep it somewhere safe in case something happens to your computer. === IMPORTANT!!! DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in steps "1 through 6" or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So DO NOT try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! (Using the cut & paste feature makes it easy) =============================================================== *** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. Once you see the reports, you will no doubt agree that $25 is a bargain. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: =============================================================== METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY =============================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume that you and those involved send out only 5,000 emails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands emails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 emails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 email each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders.That's 100 people who responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 emails each for a total of 500,000 e- mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 emails each for a total of 5 million e- mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 emails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) emails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1... $50 + 2... $500 + 3... $5,000 + 4... $50,000 + 5... $500,000.... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! ================================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO WILL PARTICIPATE. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! ============================================================= METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ============================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. This is an excellent way to get started if you are low on cash! You will, however, have a little less work if you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD# 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is email them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the email they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ===================== AVAILABLE REPORTS==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, NEATLY print or type the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS (plus an alternate one if available) plus your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: (Remember to check online or at your post office for the postal rate for sending letters outside your country when applicable) ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" Order Report # 1 from: Laura Alves Apartado 5002 1070-020 LISBOA PORTUGAL ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" Order Report # 2 from : Paula Azevedo Rua de Fez, 728 4150-326 PORTO PORTUGAL ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : "The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net" Order Report # 3 from: Fernside Lima Apartado 5598 4027-001 PORTO PORTUGAL _______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : "How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 4 from: Wendy Dock 4930 St. Jean Blvd. P.O. Box 46519 Pierrefonds, P.Q. H9H 5G9 CANADA _______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : "HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE" Order Report # 5 from: Pete R. Douglas 5122 Cote-des-Neiges CP 49643 Montreal, QC H3T 2A5 CANADA _______________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF EMAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ================================================================= THE FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in anyway. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ......# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! =================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ...... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ================================================================ "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least "get my money back. " I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada =============================================================== "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed again by someone else.... 11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, NY ================================================================ "It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, thanks to internet." Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ================================================================ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ============================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ==========================THE END====================== This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html This is a ONE TIME EMAIL, you need not reply, as there will be no further emails. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Jul 25 23:18:04 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 23:18:04 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010725231804.009ebb90@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:52 AM 7/26/01 -0400, dmolnar wrote: >will be sending and receiving several messages each day. You might try >to get around this by developing a protocol in which there are many, many >remailers, each of which only speaks once in a very long while. I don't >know how easy or hard it is exactly to do this kind of tracking, however, >which makes it difficult to say what such a protocol would look like. > >Perhaps mobile remailers might be more useful or more difficult to track >to their physical implementation. The only problem with a mobile remailer >is the question of "who's moving it?" (or what). I can imagine a mobile >remailer the size of a Walkman without too much difficulty; I can also >imagine that if I were to wear such a remailer and walk around in the >wrong kind of environment, I'd be asking for a "mugging." or worse. When "cell phones" get more programmable, and handle text, an interesting "app" could be guerilla-net-like "routing". If everyone's "phone" is a RF repeater/router, its not impossible. Battery life would probably be the worst impact. A few airline bottles of vodka will keep the fuel cells humming (for the future phone, I mean). Lots of mil apps for fully distributed RF nets, too. From jamesnicolson at yahoo.com Wed Jul 25 23:18:41 2001 From: jamesnicolson at yahoo.com (Jamie Nicolson) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 23:18:41 -0700 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" References: <20010726011520.A2642@cluebot.com> <20010726015030.F2642@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B5FB640.8F55600@yahoo.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > Now that I've actually read through some of what Tim posted, I think > it's clear what it is. Hint: Vatis wasn't in charge of NIPC by June > 29, and I don't recall any such hearing, and his reported comments > are a little, well, unusual. --Declan I thought they were supposed to keep classified and unclassified material on separate machines and networks. The information in this document would presumably be classified, and the machine it was on shouldn't have had internet access. The rules are there to prevent just this sort of thing. Of course, as we saw in the case of John Deutch, these rules are broken. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Wed Jul 25 22:05:23 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 00:05:23 -0500 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? Message-ID: In RE to the DMCA/Dmitry affair, private enforcement, new intellectual property enforcement divisions, etc. -- We are increasingly holding individuals criminally responsible for crimes against corporations and many feel an imbalance, or even a double-standard, in terms of corporate accountability for crimes against people. I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author of _Corporate Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted them to visit the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2001/000081.html ~Aimee From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 22:15:21 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:15:21 -0400 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:42:34PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010726011520.A2642@cluebot.com> There seem to be three explanations. 1. Tim is having some fun with us. It would be easy for him to do so, and NIPC (an FBI subagency) has been in the news today, with a WSJ article this morning posted to the list and a Senate hearing this afternoon. Tim's written similar things before and posted them straight-faced: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01332.html 2. Someone is spoofing NIPC email and having fun with Tim. 3. This really did originate from within NIPC and is a major cypherpunk intelligence find. The WSJ article (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02306.html) says NIPC has been hit by Sircam, which scans hard drives for email addresses in documents and mail archives, according to descriptions I've read. Reports say Sircam emails working documents (in My Documents or whatnot folder) and this could have happened. -Declan On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:42:34PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > Cypherpunks, > > I've been getting anywhere from 10 to 30 "SirCam" worm messages a > day. The volume is now declining. Most have attached files containing > fragments of Microsoft Word documents, apparently extracted from the > disk drive of the sender. Most are the usual garbage people write to > each other, but some of the ones from corporations have been > interesting. And this one, assuming it is real, seems to have > orginated from within some department of the government called "NIPC." > > It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would send > me something, so I expect a hoax. > > The attached filed, with the message, is 926 K, so I'm only enclosing > a few tantalizing sections. > > I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages from > some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason my e-mail > address is in their address book. How could that happen? > > (BTW, many of the SirCam messages have clock dates which are wrong. > This one is incorrectly dated "8/24/01".) > > At 2:39 PM -0400 8/24/01, NIPC Intern42 wrote: > ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: message text > > Hi! How are you=3F > > I send you this file in order to have your advice > > See you later=2E Thanks > > ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary > Content-Type: application/mixed; name="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" > > > The NIPC and FedCIRC have recently received information on attempts > to locate, obtain control of and plant new malicious code known as > "W32-Leaves.worm" on computers previously infected with the SubSeven > Trojan. > > The default ports for SubSeven to listen for network traffic are > 16959/tcp and 27374/tcp, though the numbers can be changed. Full > descriptions and removal instructions of a number of SubSeven > variants can be found at various anti-virus firm Web sites, including > the following: > > > > A computer security unit within the U.S. Federal Bureau of > Investigation has detected a series of intrusions into U.S. > government networks under an investigation code named Moonlight Maze, > and the intrusions appear to have originated from Russia, an FBI > official told Congress this week. A spokesman for the Russian embassy > here today quoted the head of the press service for the Russian > foreign intelligence service, Nikita Rabusov, as saying the Russian > special services have "no relation whatsoever" to the theft of > information from computer networks of the U.S. federal agencies. > > "American specialists have failed to establish from where this > intrusion originated," the embassy official quoted Rabusov as saying > in an interview with the Russian news agency Itar-Tass. "They only > indicated that it comes from a software company said to be > reverse-engineering the products of leading American software > companies. Russian special services are not so stupid to undertake > such an operation, in case the necessity arises, directly from > Moscow." > > Please report computer crime to your local FBI office > (www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or the NIPC, and to other appropriate > authorities. Incidents may be reported online at > www.nipc.gov/incident/cirr.htm. The NIPC Watch and Warning Unit also > can be reached at (202) 323-3204/3205/3206, or nipc.watch at fbi.gov. > > References to ECONCOM are to be deleted ASAP from all departmental > systems. SLAM DUNK cover to be vetted by NIPC for release to > journalists. Oakland and Monterey offices to coordinate. > > > Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal > Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center > (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary > Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June > 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final > exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." > Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of > the public debate. > > > Internal Memorandum. The FRENZY Conference was a fantastic showing of > our capabilities for covert entry into target computers. PDs across > the country are asking how they can get their own CARNIVORE systems. > Here is one such request: > > "We've bought so many necessary items from vendors who attended the > last FRENZY Conference ... the Conference was definitely one of the > best I've attended. I was particularly impressed by how easy the > Carnivore system was to set up." > > Rick Smithman, Criminalistics Bureau Administrator, Lodi Police Department > > > > With this thought in mind, The Laissez Faire City Times interviewed > Ed Hertzog, editor of The Free Associator, an interesting e-zine that > wants to facilitate Digital Anarchy. This interview is a little > mirror of an underground, libertarian world, whose landmarks and > standard-bearers are John Perry Barlow and Neal Stephenson, Nicholas > Negroponte and Ayn Rand, Louis Rossetto and David Friedman. > > > NIPC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile > hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. The > take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as per AG > Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be provided by NIPC. > Plain clothes agents will be at the conference to render assistance. From declan at well.com Wed Jul 25 22:50:31 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:50:31 -0400 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: <20010726011520.A2642@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 01:15:21AM -0400 References: <20010726011520.A2642@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010726015030.F2642@cluebot.com> Now that I've actually read through some of what Tim posted, I think it's clear what it is. Hint: Vatis wasn't in charge of NIPC by June 29, and I don't recall any such hearing, and his reported comments are a little, well, unusual. --Declan On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 01:15:21AM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > There seem to be three explanations. > > 1. Tim is having some fun with us. It would be easy for him to do so, and > NIPC (an FBI subagency) has been in the news today, with a WSJ article > this morning posted to the list and a Senate hearing this afternoon. > Tim's written similar things before and posted them straight-faced: > http://www.politechbot.com/p-01332.html > > 2. Someone is spoofing NIPC email and having fun with Tim. > > 3. This really did originate from within NIPC and is a major > cypherpunk intelligence find. The WSJ article > (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02306.html) says NIPC has been hit by > Sircam, which scans hard drives for email addresses in documents and > mail archives, according to descriptions I've read. Reports say Sircam > emails working documents (in My Documents or whatnot folder) and this > could have happened. > > -Declan > > > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:42:34PM -0700, Tim May wrote: > > Cypherpunks, > > > > I've been getting anywhere from 10 to 30 "SirCam" worm messages a > > day. The volume is now declining. Most have attached files containing > > fragments of Microsoft Word documents, apparently extracted from the > > disk drive of the sender. Most are the usual garbage people write to > > each other, but some of the ones from corporations have been > > interesting. And this one, assuming it is real, seems to have > > orginated from within some department of the government called "NIPC." > > > > It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would send > > me something, so I expect a hoax. > > > > The attached filed, with the message, is 926 K, so I'm only enclosing > > a few tantalizing sections. > > > > I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages from > > some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason my e-mail > > address is in their address book. How could that happen? > > > > (BTW, many of the SirCam messages have clock dates which are wrong. > > This one is incorrectly dated "8/24/01".) > > > > At 2:39 PM -0400 8/24/01, NIPC Intern42 wrote: > > ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Content-Disposition: message text > > > > Hi! How are you=3F > > > > I send you this file in order to have your advice > > > > See you later=2E Thanks > > > > ------017B5BE9_Outlook_Express_message_boundary > > Content-Type: application/mixed; name="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > > Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DC TOOLZ.zip.bat" > > > > > > The NIPC and FedCIRC have recently received information on attempts > > to locate, obtain control of and plant new malicious code known as > > "W32-Leaves.worm" on computers previously infected with the SubSeven > > Trojan. > > > > The default ports for SubSeven to listen for network traffic are > > 16959/tcp and 27374/tcp, though the numbers can be changed. Full > > descriptions and removal instructions of a number of SubSeven > > variants can be found at various anti-virus firm Web sites, including > > the following: > > > > > > > > A computer security unit within the U.S. Federal Bureau of > > Investigation has detected a series of intrusions into U.S. > > government networks under an investigation code named Moonlight Maze, > > and the intrusions appear to have originated from Russia, an FBI > > official told Congress this week. A spokesman for the Russian embassy > > here today quoted the head of the press service for the Russian > > foreign intelligence service, Nikita Rabusov, as saying the Russian > > special services have "no relation whatsoever" to the theft of > > information from computer networks of the U.S. federal agencies. > > > > "American specialists have failed to establish from where this > > intrusion originated," the embassy official quoted Rabusov as saying > > in an interview with the Russian news agency Itar-Tass. "They only > > indicated that it comes from a software company said to be > > reverse-engineering the products of leading American software > > companies. Russian special services are not so stupid to undertake > > such an operation, in case the necessity arises, directly from > > Moscow." > > > > Please report computer crime to your local FBI office > > (www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or the NIPC, and to other appropriate > > authorities. Incidents may be reported online at > > www.nipc.gov/incident/cirr.htm. The NIPC Watch and Warning Unit also > > can be reached at (202) 323-3204/3205/3206, or nipc.watch at fbi.gov. > > > > References to ECONCOM are to be deleted ASAP from all departmental > > systems. SLAM DUNK cover to be vetted by NIPC for release to > > journalists. Oakland and Monterey offices to coordinate. > > > > > > Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal > > Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center > > (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary > > Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June > > 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final > > exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." > > Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of > > the public debate. > > > > > > Internal Memorandum. The FRENZY Conference was a fantastic showing of > > our capabilities for covert entry into target computers. PDs across > > the country are asking how they can get their own CARNIVORE systems. > > Here is one such request: > > > > "We've bought so many necessary items from vendors who attended the > > last FRENZY Conference ... the Conference was definitely one of the > > best I've attended. I was particularly impressed by how easy the > > Carnivore system was to set up." > > > > Rick Smithman, Criminalistics Bureau Administrator, Lodi Police Department > > > > > > > > With this thought in mind, The Laissez Faire City Times interviewed > > Ed Hertzog, editor of The Free Associator, an interesting e-zine that > > wants to facilitate Digital Anarchy. This interview is a little > > mirror of an underground, libertarian world, whose landmarks and > > standard-bearers are John Perry Barlow and Neal Stephenson, Nicholas > > Negroponte and Ayn Rand, Louis Rossetto and David Friedman. > > > > > > NIPC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile > > hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. The > > take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as per AG > > Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be provided by NIPC. > > Plain clothes agents will be at the conference to render assistance. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Wed Jul 25 22:52:53 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 gbroiles at speakeasy.org wrote: > forbidden emails or browse hidden sites did that by going to public > terminals in libraries or web cafes or [...] - now perhaps they'll do that > at Starbucks or the mall, either for free or having paid cash for > short-term access via 802.11b wireless. I heard recently that Starbucks is piloting 802.11b access in selected Manhattan locations. The issue is support, of course - they need to see if they'll have to hire a sysadmin for every Starbucks before rolling it out. I haven't taken my laptop and tried to verify this yet. Matthew Skala had some material on his web page concerning "community wireless" networks, as well, in which people offer free wireless connectivity as a public service. Presumably this too would offer opportunities for anonymous net access. I would be less willing to trust a static box connected to one of these networks, though. Once identified as a remailer, it seems that it might be too easy to track it to its physical location, at which point it can be borged or destroyed. After all, if it's going to be an active remailer, it will be sending and receiving several messages each day. You might try to get around this by developing a protocol in which there are many, many remailers, each of which only speaks once in a very long while. I don't know how easy or hard it is exactly to do this kind of tracking, however, which makes it difficult to say what such a protocol would look like. Perhaps mobile remailers might be more useful or more difficult to track to their physical implementation. The only problem with a mobile remailer is the question of "who's moving it?" (or what). I can imagine a mobile remailer the size of a Walkman without too much difficulty; I can also imagine that if I were to wear such a remailer and walk around in the wrong kind of environment, I'd be asking for a "mugging." or worse. Now that I think about it, it's not clear that wireless actually buys us more than obscurity of physical location. The real win, as you point out, is ease of access and ease of setup. Maybe less dependence on upstream connections, as well, so you can get around the problem of ISPs shutting down remailers for spam. Plus mobile remailers seem to require either a global address space or developing the notion of remailer confederations which allow dynamic leave and join of remailer nodes. I recall that the notion of dynamic collections of remailers came up in at least one previous discussion of disposable remailers. I don't remember that too many conclusions were reached, but it was a while abck. One problem is that an adversary can show up with polynomially many of its closest friends and have them all try to join a remailer confederation at once. While the MIX protocol is theoretically OK as long as even one MIX is honest, this may have bad implications for traffic analysis. Perhaps one thing we could do would be to borrow Levien's advogato metric. Let anyone who wants to start a remailer confederation. They form the root set of the trust metric for that confederation. Anyone can join the confederation's address space, but will start out with no trust links between them and the root set. Nodes can rate each other, establishing trust links. This way you can develop a trust metric / reputation system local to that particular remailer confederation. Now the issues are how the ratings are set up and maybe more important, how routing of messages is influenced by the trust metric. Ratings could be manual. We know how well that works from the PGP web of trust experiment - and here life is harder since remops usually will not know each other personally nor want to. Another issue is dealing with nodes which leave the confederation. What if all the confederation founders leave? what happens to the root set then? Also, building up trust may require time, which makes this unsuitable for nodes which want to pop in for 20 ins and then leave (say their owner is on the freeway). -David From George at orwellian.org Wed Jul 25 19:48:20 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (Triffid Master) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 02:48:20 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726024820.22702.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> [ My PSINet email is history. ] Tim May wrote: # # I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages # from some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason # my e-mail address is in their address book. How could that happen? I don't know, but I just got my first two mailings from some poor sap, and it has the same intro. "I send you this file in order to have your advice" I emailed the person to let them know, asked if they've visited my URL or anything. Gave them the CERT URL. Again: http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-22.html ---- Tim May wrote: # It must be bogus.This does not seem plausible, that they would # send me something, so I expect a hoax. No, it's real, and screamingly funny!!! I received an executable ".xls.pif" version of a spreadsheet called "2000 taxes". From viewing *hundreds* of these using "strings" as part of previous email monitoring duties, I can tell just by looking at it that it's the real thing. (If that showed anything interesting, I transferred it to a PeeCee for further inspection.) If anyone actually wants to run the "win32 executable", email me for it. Check it out: # Salary # David-AMD # Lori-Dell # Federal # Withholding # PAYROLL # GMAC-Home Loan # Bank One - Home Improvement # HOUSE INTEREST # Silver Lake-Time Share-2nd Home # HOUSE - REAL ESTATE TAX # GMAC # Amount # Taxes Paid @ Time of Withdrawal! # Hartford was rolled to Dell-1099R: # 1099R Shows Distribution Code "H" in Box 7 as rolled over. # 401k WITHDRAWAL DELL # INTEREST INCOME # Bank One # Bank of America # CHARITY GIFTS # Goodwill # CAPITAL GAINS/LOSSES # See Etrade Info My experience says it is real. ---- Tim May wrote: # # PC has been tasked to assist in the take-down of a high-profile # hacker terrorist at the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. # # The take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, as # per AG Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be # provided by NIPC. Plain clothes agents will be at the conference # to render assistance. Holy Shit, Batman!!! Too bad it didn't get out earlier! Let me know if you want the whole thing put up on WWW. From freehits45 at redhotant.com Thu Jul 26 03:20:51 2001 From: freehits45 at redhotant.com (freehits45 at redhotant.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:20:51 Subject: Free Hits Message-ID: <200107252228.PAA31410@ecotone.toad.com> Hello There, I have discovered an extremely important new website and wanted to pass the information on to you: This is a very interesting new free traffic building system. I could go on about how impressed I am about this, but it's so easy that you should really try it yourself. I assure you this is the real-deal. In fact, this is probably the most powerful traffic building tool ever created. I just hope it stays FREE... You should get it now while it still is. Anyway, please email back by clicking on the link below to know more. mailto:joh at mailer.instant-net.co.uk?subject=show_me Please do not use you Reply button. Take Care and thank you for your time. John. From petro at bounty.org Thu Jul 26 03:27:09 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:27:09 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:39 AM -0500 7/24/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >> At the risk of going Choatien and stepping far beyond any >> degrees I may have, the position that each and every LEO in this >> country *should* (as opposed to does) decide for himself whether a law >> fits his understanding of the constitution before enforcing it is not >> only unworkable, but--if the LEO truly believes in the concepts of >> "Rule of Law", wrong headed. > >Wrong headed or not, LEOs are manufactured out of human beings, and >because of this, the spend a considerable amount of time in the Maggot >Academy (tm) being taught the fine points of this very issue. In fact, No, they don't. Spoke with an officer this evening about it. The cover (at least the academy he went to here in SillyCon valley) 4 amendment issues, and only from the practical standpoint, not the philosphical standpoint, and mostly was "scenario" based. >a great majority of an LEO's "education" time is spent instructing them on >how to determine [decide] what is and is not constitutionally protected >{speech, action}. If they did not use this "ability", they would have to >arrest *everyone*, and let the courts sort out the mess. No, they would have to arrest everyone they witnessed (or knew) committed an act that violated the law. Other than said 4th amendment issues, street cops *rarely* get involved in constitutional issues. >> As a further disclaimer, let me say that I don't think "The >> Legal Community" agrees with me. They're agreement or not isn't a >> factor in my thinking. I already know (as Declan points out) that Reno >> doesn't agree with me, but from her actions it's quite clear she >> doesn't believe in the Rule Of Law--at least not in the sense I've >> been using it. > >Actually, she is the perfect example: she interpreted the constitution her >way. The "Rule of Law" has to be implemented at the individual [enforcer] >level: therefore, each enforcer is putin the position of having to make >and act on their [constitutional] opinions on a moment to moment basis. Uh. No. From her *ACTIONS* she did not believe in the "Rule Of Law", but believed strongly in the long arm and mailed fist of the law. Witness her actions, and the actions of departments under her. The FBI was, in direct violation of the brady law, retaining the information about firearm purchases. Witness how quickly the Waco crime scene was bulldozed. Witness DOJ lawyers arguing in the Ruby Ridge case that Lon H. was not touchable by state law because he was a Fed acting under orders. >The fact that you [and in this rare case] I agree that Reno is a fascist >sack of shit is completely irrelevent. Well, it's nice to see we agree about something. >> Now, in an ideal world the constitution would be clearly worded >> and the semantics would be clearly understood by the people who live >> under it. However, "It ain't like that". English is by no means an ISO >> (or even ANSI) standard, and even reasonable people can disagree on the >> complexity generated by the various articles and sections of the >> constitution and the amendments. >> >> Look for example to the issue of the Second Amendment. The >> clearest plain word interpretation of that amendment is that the >> no one has the ability to infringe on the right of "the people" to >> keep and bear arms. >> >> Fairly simple. >> >> Does that then mean that just about every firearm law in the >> country is invalid on it's face? >Yes. No. > >And if you are at all familiar with the history of 2A case law, you >will understand why the SCOTUS has been so meticulous in avoiding a >ruling. Of course, our friends [hrmmm... Never thought I'd say THAT] in >Texas may well put an end to the charade soon. Still waiting to hear about the Emerson case (and the 5th is in New Orleans IIRC). >> Well, no. See, the same constitution also grants Congress the >> power to regulate interstate trade, so as long as they don't "infringe" >> on the right, they have a wide latitude to set standards etc. Or do they? >> What are the limits of that particular clause? > >Virtually the entire 2A ablating federal infrastructure is based on a >truly scary "finding" that *any* firearm is the product of Intertate >Commerce, regardless if it has been out of the state in which it was Well, no. Only about 1/2 of the ablating. The other half is Congresses power to tax. (At the federal level a good number of firearms cases are on charges of failing to file and or pay the class 2 or 3 weapons tax stamp). > >> Further more, what is *constitutionally* an infringement? > >Als at the risk of going Choation, what part of "Shall not be >infringed" don't you understand? I understand "shall not", it's the "infringed" I'm asking about. Is it *really* an infringement on your rights to require firearms manufacturers to meet reasonable standards of functioning? In fact, given the basis of the second amendment--that arms are to be available for self-defense, defense of the community and defense of or from the Nation, it could easily be argued that government legislation standardizing a reasonable level of functionality and safety (minimum rounds between malfunctions, drop tests) are not only not infringements, but are enhancements--the guarantee (as much as legislation can) that the arm you buy at the Walmart store will be useful in it's constitutional indicated manner. I'm not arguing for such laws, IMO they aren't needed, but they still would mostly like *not* be considered an infringement. > >> Is >> it acceptable for Congress to set (legitimate) product reliability >> standards? (e.g. to require a pistol must be capable of firing >> rounds between failures etc.) > >No. This is a free market issue. Whether the free market can provide this or not is orthagonal to the question. >> Let's get even finer. >> >> Do you *really* want your local beat cop to be making decisions >> on what does and doesn't fall into "protected speech" (or even whether >> there is a distinction there to be made?) >See above: it is by definition unavoidable. There are a lot of things that in a society are unavoidable. The question is whether those things should be encouraged or discouraged. My contention is that encouraging a LEO to decide for himself whether a law is constitutional or not is both wrong, and counter productive. >> It's happened in Chicago, and worse (see below). >> >> There are at least 3 states a law can be in vis-a-vis >> constitutionality: >> >> (1) Adjudged unconstitutional. >> (2) Adjudged constitutional. >> (3) Not adjudged relative to it's constitutionality. > >Irrelevent. We are not discussing abstract legal theory, we are >discussing factual implementation. Factual implementation, outside of dot-coms, should descend from theory. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Jul 26 00:38:50 2001 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010725231804.009ebb90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > When "cell phones" get more programmable, and handle text, an interesting > "app" could be guerilla-net-like "routing". If everyone's "phone" is > a RF repeater/router, its not impossible. You could probably hack this up now, if you were willing to lose the cell phone functionality of your cell phone. Maybe you could even get by with just replacing the web browser on your cell phone. (I still can't make head or tails out of my phone's browser, but apparently people use them.) cell phones do handle text. In fact people are trying to make a business out of cell phone mailing lists. see www.upoc.com You'd have to add would be some kind of scripting language for forwarding text messages on the phone. > > Battery life would probably be the worst impact. A few airline bottles > of vodka will keep the fuel cells humming (for the future phone, I mean). Heh. "One for me, one for my phone." Batch transmissions every hour on the hour might help with this. No reason to be up all the time for sending e-mail. You could also play games in which every phone picks a different minute each hour, then wakes up during that minute for transmission. Your chance of being in the same minute as your destination isn't great, but you could transmit the packet to each of your neighbors in that minute, each of whom tries to relay the packet in different minutes during the next hour. One issue with that, though, is how to stop packets from flying around long after they've been first delivered. A gnutella/freenet-style limit on the number of tries might help. So might announcements of packets received; i.e. a phone says "I've received packet X, so you can drop it." You'd have to be careful about an adversary trying to create packets which live forever (i.e. the hop limit should not live in the packet, unless the packet is signed and these announcements had better have some way of proving they come from the 'intented' sender) (but at the same time, we should avoid any protocol which requires a PKI for phones or even public-key crypto on efficiency and speed grounds; it takes 20 seconds for my phone to negotiate one RSA key exchange). In order to prevent what Anderson calls "sleep deprivation" attacks, you'd also want that the number of minutes the phone is up depends weakly or not at all on parameters under the control of an adversary. like how many packets received during the previous minute up. Random dropping of incoming packets might be a way to get around this, since I'm thinking that every phone broadcasts to every other phone in the same minute anyway. (I keep thinking of _Dayworld_ through all of this, but I don't yet see a good joke or a useful metaphor -- phones are not assigned set minutes for life, unlike in _Dayworld_, so what's a "dayworld breaker"? a phone that continues to relay during the entire hour? that would be a good thing, since it'd speed up packet relay.) I'd be pretty surprised if people haven't already looked at these sorts of schemes and come up with much better ones. Although maybe they haven't been considered with adversaries in mind. Anyone know of references? > > Lots of mil apps for fully distributed RF nets, too. That's where spread-spectrum came from, isn't it? How much is publically known about the toys they already have? -David From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 02:00:28 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:00:28 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445C5@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found DEVELOPMENT PLAN FY 2002.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: DEVELOPMENT PLAN FY 2002", was sent from Keith Recker and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 02:08:38 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:08:38 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445C7@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Agere-Ron.zip.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Agere-Ron", was sent from Ron B and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From George at orwellian.org Wed Jul 25 23:34:56 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (John Ashcroft's Persecuting Penis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:34:56 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726063456.31635.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Tim May forwarded SirCam output: # # Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal # Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center # (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary # Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June # 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final # exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of # the public debate. Declan the Wired Reporter wrote: # # Now that I've actually read through some of # what Tim posted, I think it's clear what it is. # # Hint: Vatis wasn't in charge of NIPC by June 29 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Declan, this IS REAL STUFF. June 1998 !!! http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/12915.html # # US' 'Soft, Digital Underbelly' # Reuters # # 1:10pm 11.Jun.98.PDT # # WASHINGTON -- The head of a new US cyber law-enforcement agency # says a half dozen substantial attacks have been launched against # government computer systems since February. # # "A good percentage of the incidents we see ... involve [the # Department of Defense], because DOD is such a prime target for # even individual hackers who want to test their skills," said # Michael Vatis, the chief of the National Infrastructure Protection # Center of the FBI. "They see the Department of Defense as the # big banana, the final exam, the ultimate challenge to test their # skills." The casual (or otherwise) surveillance of cypherpunk traffic has now backfired in conjunction with this virus-trojan! What wonderful things did Tim May get and flush, not knowing the potential??? Tim, quick send Declan, JYA, and me a text extract! HOT DAMN!!! # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing # these persons out of the public debate FUCKING FEDS!!! # The take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, # as per AG Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. Let them have it with both barrels, Declan! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 26 05:14:33 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:14:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010725223953.036c3ec0@frissell@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote: > At 05:53 PM 7/25/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global > >government or corporate enterprise. I want direct interaction of business > >in government to be prohibited. > > Great idea. As Frank Chodorov suggested during the McCarthy Era. "Worried > about communists in government jobs? Just get rid of the government jobs." > > If we get rid of the government, no business involvement. Only practical > way of accomplishing same. Prohibiting direct business interaction with government isn't the same as getting rid of government. And no, getting rid of government isn't practical. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 26 05:19:16 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:19:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: <20010726011520.A2642@cluebot.com> Message-ID: 4. It's another one of those 'hahaha' virus trolls that has been going on for a while now. And you guys are the 'techno-elite'.... On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > There seem to be three explanations. > > 1. Tim is having some fun with us. It would be easy for him to do so, and > NIPC (an FBI subagency) has been in the news today, with a WSJ article > this morning posted to the list and a Senate hearing this afternoon. > Tim's written similar things before and posted them straight-faced: > http://www.politechbot.com/p-01332.html > > 2. Someone is spoofing NIPC email and having fun with Tim. > > 3. This really did originate from within NIPC and is a major > cypherpunk intelligence find. The WSJ article > (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02306.html) says NIPC has been hit by > Sircam, which scans hard drives for email addresses in documents and > mail archives, according to descriptions I've read. Reports say Sircam > emails working documents (in My Documents or whatnot folder) and this > could have happened. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From measl at mfn.org Thu Jul 26 05:20:45 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:20:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > >Wrong headed or not, LEOs are manufactured out of human beings, and > >because of this, the spend a considerable amount of time in the Maggot > >Academy (tm) being taught the fine points of this very issue. In fact, > > No, they don't. Spoke with an officer this evening about it. > > The cover (at least the academy he went to here in SillyCon > valley) 4 amendment issues, and only from the practical standpoint, > not the philosphical standpoint, and mostly was "scenario" based. That explains a lot about the California SS. Down in the United States, or at least in the few areas I have personal knowledge of, New York (City PD and State Trooper) and New Mexico, there is a great deal of constitutional education. This education is seen as necessary to "properly" interpret *when* (not if, sadly enough) an LEO may take certain actions. > > >a great majority of an LEO's "education" time is spent instructing them on > >how to determine [decide] what is and is not constitutionally protected > >{speech, action}. If they did not use this "ability", they would have to > >arrest *everyone*, and let the courts sort out the mess. > > KNo, they would have to arrest everyone they witnessed (or knew) committed an act that violated the law. You are confusing "civilians" and LEOs. Only civilians are held to the personal knowledge standard. Leos are held to profoundly lower probablity models. > Other than said 4th amendment issues, street cops *rarely* get > involved in constitutional issues. If you honestly believe this, then someone needs to beat the shit out of you with a clueclub. By definition, LEOs are [daily] involved in all issues, from 1-ad to no-ad... > >And if you are at all familiar with the history of 2A case law, you > >will understand why the SCOTUS has been so meticulous in avoiding a > >ruling. Of course, our friends [hrmmm... Never thought I'd say THAT] in > >Texas may well put an end to the charade soon. > > Still waiting to hear about the Emerson case (and the 5th is in > New Orleans IIRC). > > > >> Well, no. See, the same constitution also grants Congress the > >> power to regulate interstate trade, so as long as they don't "infringe" > >> on the right, they have a wide latitude to set standards etc. Or do they? > >> What are the limits of that particular clause? > > > >Virtually the entire 2A ablating federal infrastructure is based on a > >truly scary "finding" that *any* firearm is the product of Intertate > >Commerce, regardless if it has been out of the state in which it was > > Well, no. Only about 1/2 of the ablating. The other half is > Congresses power to tax. (At the federal level a good number of > firearms cases are on charges of failing to file and or pay the class > 2 or 3 weapons tax stamp). Please document this assertion. 1/2 is just plain *wrong*. The tax issues are restrictive, but not ablating, i.e., if you can afford the tax, then, *in theory*, you have no problem. I am talking about totally [2A] destructive laws, such as felons losing their RIGHT to ownership of firearms, civilians losing their RIGHT to own "assault weapons" (interesting note: it is still legal to collect missiles, but not certain types of rifles - the idiocy continues). > > > > >> Further more, what is *constitutionally* an infringement? > > > >Als at the risk of going Choation, what part of "Shall not be > >infringed" don't you understand? > > I understand "shall not", it's the "infringed" I'm asking about. > > Is it *really* an infringement on your rights to require > firearms manufacturers to meet reasonable standards of functioning? Yes. Period. > Whether the free market can provide this or not is orthagonal to > the question. No it is not: it is directly on point. There is NO constituional basis for the government to be able to regulate firearms. Period. Whether for "good", "bad", or indifferent. There is a very clear constitutional mandate that any and all firearms be available to "the people" - period. Any infringement, even if it is "for my own good" is unconstituional on it's face. > > > >> Let's get even finer. > >> > >> Do you *really* want your local beat cop to be making decisions > >> on what does and doesn't fall into "protected speech" (or even whether > >> there is a distinction there to be made?) > >See above: it is by definition unavoidable. > > There are a lot of things that in a society are unavoidable. The > question is whether those things should be encouraged or discouraged. > > My contention is that encouraging a LEO to decide for himself > whether a law is constitutional or not is both wrong, and counter > productive. Again, returning to the oath of office taken by LEOs: their FIRST responsibility is to defend the CONSTITUTION. Not to follow orders. You want mindless droids enforcing laws, you get the kind of defacto police state we are living in now. You *should* be looking for THINKING *humans* to be filling this position. > >> It's happened in Chicago, and worse (see below). > >> > >> There are at least 3 states a law can be in vis-a-vis > >> constitutionality: > >> > >> (1) Adjudged unconstitutional. > >> (2) Adjudged constitutional. > >> (3) Not adjudged relative to it's constitutionality. > > > >Irrelevent. We are not discussing abstract legal theory, we are > >discussing factual implementation. > > Factual implementation, outside of dot-coms, should descend from > theory. This is a nice academic pretence, but you are now dealing with The Real World (tm). Things like the abstract "Reasonable Man" and "Common Good", and the thousands of other interjections you could assert here, simply do not apply. Save this shit for Philosophy Club. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 26 05:27:42 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:27:42 -0500 Subject: CNN Programs - Presents - The hunt for Eric Rudolph Message-ID: <3B600CBE.D7B87997@ssz.com> http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/ -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DaiShogun at bogonflux.net Thu Jul 26 08:30:47 2001 From: DaiShogun at bogonflux.net (DS) Date: 26 Jul 2001 08:30:47 -0700 Subject: spam & new user Message-ID: <20010726153047.25948.cpmta@c004.sfo.cp.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 05:32:29 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:32:29 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445CD@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Agere-Ron.zip.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Agere-Ron", was sent from Ron B and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 01:42:39 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (John Ashcroft's Persecuting Penis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:42:39 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726084239.25177.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Declan, I finally realized what you were talking about when you wrote this: DM wrote: # # [Vatis'] reported comments are a little, well, unusual. This was apparently what you were referring to: Tim May receives NIPC internal notes: # # Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal # Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center # (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary # Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June # 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final # exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of # the public debate. Notice the closing quotes on Vatis's testimony. I immediately read and attributed that last sentence to another voice. We are looking at an FBI agent's internal notes, recounting events. Who said this: # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of # the public debate. General Ashcroft, of course. Here, I'll combine it with the smoking gun: # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these crypto # anarchists out of the public debate. NIPC has been tasked to # assist in the take-down of a high-profile hacker terrorist at # the DefCon conference next week in Las Vegas. The take-down is # being planned for maximal public impact, as per AG Ashcroft's # memo of 24JUN01. Full assistance will be provided by NIPC. Plain # clothes agents will be at the conference to render assistance. Oh my gawd, he's a "terrorist"!!! ---- All that boring traffic Tim got.net, that is what most traffic is: boring. Don't believe my "traffic analysis"? Ask Tim what the SMTP headers say. You've got a major story on your hands. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Sat in your lap. Why didn't cypherpunks think of this virus? I guess we're not predatory, like the DOJ. "Watch carefully those you lend power to." ---Newt Gingrich From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 05:52:01 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:52:01 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445CF@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found SOCIETE PAR ACTIONS SIMPLIFIEE.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: SOCIETE PAR ACTIONS SIMPLIFIEE", was sent from Anne Fr矇chette and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 05:52:40 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:52:40 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445D1@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found june-99-checks.xls.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: june-99-checks", was sent from David Hosmer and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 26 08:56:33 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:56:33 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010725231804.009ebb90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726085633.00877e70@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:38 AM 7/26/01 -0400, dmolnar wrote: >> Lots of mil apps for fully distributed RF nets, too. > >That's where spread-spectrum came from, isn't it? How much is publically >known about the toys they already have? > >-David Spread spectrum and freq hopping are separate. They make jamming/finding harder. But they don't change the topology. What I meant is if each soldier's radio relays messages, you don't need a big succeptible basestation. Similarly with sensor nets, robot swarms, etc. ..... Did you know that NEC is selling a .4 x .4 mm x 60 micron chip that has a 128-bit ROM and an RF interface? For embedding into security docs. Externally powered, 30 cm range. Add sensors, solar power storage, longer range, and relay messages. Like dust in the wind. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 26 09:07:44 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:07:44 -0700 Subject: Congress in action: Three years for "product tampering" In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010725164055.01ff9e10@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726090744.00879480@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:41 PM 7/25/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >* Make knowingly stamping, printing, placing or inserting writing in or on >a consumer product prior to its sale a crime with penalties up three years >imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $25,000 per offense. > So will musicians be able to sue Tipper Wh^H^H Gore and her ilk for the Parental Advisory stickers added to their product? From declan at well.com Thu Jul 26 06:12:29 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:12:29 -0400 Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: <20010726063456.31635.qmail@vpop1.superb.net>; from George@orwellian.org on Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 06:34:56AM +0000 References: <20010726063456.31635.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Message-ID: <20010726091229.B27191@cluebot.com> Yes, clearly I was wrong and this must be the real thing. I urge you to start an online campaign straightaway! -Declan On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 06:34:56AM +0000, John Ashcroft's Persecuting Penis wrote: > Tim May forwarded SirCam output: > # > # Michael Vatis, deputy assistant director and chief of the Federal > # Bureau of Investigation's National Infrastructure Protection Center > # (NIPC) created February 26, 1998, told the Senate Judiciary > # Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information June > # 29 that 'crypto anarchists" see Washington's computers as "the final > # exam, the ultimate challenge, the enemy which must be destroyed." > # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of > # the public debate. > > Declan the Wired Reporter wrote: > # > # Now that I've actually read through some of > # what Tim posted, I think it's clear what it is. > # > # Hint: Vatis wasn't in charge of NIPC by June 29 > > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! > > Declan, this IS REAL STUFF. > > June 1998 !!! > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/12915.html > # > # US' 'Soft, Digital Underbelly' > # Reuters > # > # 1:10pm 11.Jun.98.PDT > # > # WASHINGTON -- The head of a new US cyber law-enforcement agency > # says a half dozen substantial attacks have been launched against > # government computer systems since February. > # > # "A good percentage of the incidents we see ... involve [the > # Department of Defense], because DOD is such a prime target for > # even individual hackers who want to test their skills," said > # Michael Vatis, the chief of the National Infrastructure Protection > # Center of the FBI. "They see the Department of Defense as the > # big banana, the final exam, the ultimate challenge to test their > # skills." > > > The casual (or otherwise) surveillance of cypherpunk > traffic has now backfired in conjunction with this > virus-trojan! > > What wonderful things did Tim May get and flush, > not knowing the potential??? > > Tim, quick send Declan, JYA, and me a text extract! > > HOT DAMN!!! > > # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing > # these persons out of the public debate > > FUCKING FEDS!!! > > # The take-down is being planned for maximal public impact, > # as per AG Ashcroft's memo of 24JUN01. > > Let them have it with both barrels, Declan! From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 06:14:46 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:14:46 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445D3@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Socail.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Socail", was sent from Al & Jen Long and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 02:15:47 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (John Ashcroft's Persecuting Penis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:15:47 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone =?iso-8859-1?Q?named=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726091547.31623.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Previously: Tim May wrote: # # I really cannot imagine why I am getting these SirCam messages # from some government agency named "NIPC," unless for some reason # my e-mail address is in their address book. How could that happen? SlowBrain wrote: # # I don't know... I do now. It's in the CERT advisory: http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-22.html # # W32/Sircam includes its own SMTP client capabilities, which it # uses to propagate via email. It determines its recipient list # by recursively searching for email addresses contained in all # *.wab (Windows Address Book) files in the %SYSTEM% folder. # # Additionally, it searches the folders referred to by # # HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ # CurrentVersion\Explorer\Shell Folders\Cache # # HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ # CurrentVersion\Explorer\Shell Folders\Desktop # # for files containing email addresses. All they had to have done was pull up a WWW page with your address on it. An NIPC computer, an FBI (NIPC) agent investigating "terrorists". Not too surprising Tim "they need killing" May was addressed. Tim has certainly gotten a lot of SirCams! It's like an HTML WWW bug gift to Tim, to see all the companies who were pulling him up. From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Jul 26 09:16:05 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:16:05 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers Message-ID: <3B604245.DE06F99F@lsil.com> dmolnar wrote: > When "cell phones" get more programmable, and handle text, an interesting > "app" could be guerilla-net-like "routing". If everyone's "phone" is > a RF repeater/router, its not impossible. > > Battery life would probably be the worst impact. A few airline bottles > of vodka will keep the fuel cells humming (for the future phone, I mean). > > Lots of mil apps for fully distributed RF nets, too. > There are multiple SBIR solicitations for this sort of thing. From ericm at lne.com Thu Jul 26 09:26:48 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:26:48 -0700 Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 11:47:03AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010726092648.A4503@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 11:47:03AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > When cyberpass started messing up a few weeks ago, > I unsubbed there and resubbed at minder.net > > Several times, I've noticed that messages I sent were > replied to long before I ever saw the original message > come back. > > Yesterday I sent a message around 11AM, and just > got the original back, over 24 hours later. > > I'm used to a delay of an hour or so, but this is > ridiculous.... > > Here are the headers showing the delay taking > place at minder (I've obscured some local nodes). > > Received: from minder.net-gate.com ([xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]) by > AAAAA.securitydynamics.com > via smtpd (for BBBBB.securitydynamics.com [xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]) with > SMTP; 26 Jul 2001 15:22:40 UT > > 4+ hours between pax.m.n and RSA. > > Received: from waste.minder.net (root at waste.minder.net [64.80.76.82]) > by pax.minder.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f6QBagP81775; > Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:36:42 -0400 (EDT) > (envelope-from bmm at waste.minder.net) > > 20 hours holdup between waste.m.n and pax.m.n > > Received: (from majordom at localhost) > by waste.minder.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00895 > for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:07:58 -0400 > > > Anyone else seen this? The CDRs are busy passing LOTS of copies of Sircam between themselves. It got so bad that I had to limit the size of incoming mail to lne. I'm also having problems getting CDR mail into minder.net. I expect that they're swamped. Eric From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 26 09:35:28 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= In-Reply-To: <20010726131847.11427.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 George at orwellian.org wrote: >Declan wrote: ># ># Yes, clearly I was wrong and this must be the real thing. ># I urge you to start an online campaign straightaway! > >I'm stunned you think this is a joke. ^^^^ You misspelled "hoax". Think about it. You know how secure SMTP isn't? Go read the RFC, then you can telnet to the SMTP port of any open relay and create a message that appears to come from anywhere or anyone you like. Choate even still runs an open relay for your convenience. There is *NO* evidence that this isn't a hoax. Making a hoax would be so damn easy it isn't even funny. All that has to happen is for some monkey out there to read the "sircam" story and the "dmitry" story and decide he wants to yank the cypherpunks' collective chain (and/or discredit a reporter). There is a (remote) possibility that it could be real. But if so it is totally deniable and reporting it would cause a loss of credibility. The only way to find out if it's real is to save it, wait for more facts about FBI operations and structures to come out, and then the "smoking gun" would point at it only if it refers to or confirms any things that are true at this time but wouldn't be known to a hoaxer at this time. Bear From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Jul 26 09:53:50 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:53:50 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" Message-ID: <3B604B1E.10D07051@lsil.com> Declan, Here's a #4 #4 - NIPC is looking for high profile missions to back up up next year's request for a massive appropriations increase and is hoping to stir up the malcontents with incendiary leaks authenticated by a press release about NIPC internal virus troubles. The negative effects of the current report about internal virus infections will more than be offset by the praise when this sophisticated strategy is revealed. :Occam() it and place your bets $20 on #1 to win > There seem to be three explanations. > > 1. Tim is having some fun with us. It would be easy for him to do so, and > NIPC (an FBI subagency) has been in the news today, with a WSJ article > this morning posted to the list and a Senate hearing this afternoon. > Tim's written similar things before and posted them straight-faced: > http://www.politechbot.com/p-01332.html > > 2. Someone is spoofing NIPC email and having fun with Tim. > > 3. This really did originate from within NIPC and is a major > cypherpunk intelligence find. The WSJ article > (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02306.html) says NIPC has been hit by > Sircam, which scans hard drives for email addresses in documents and > mail archives, according to descriptions I've read. Reports say Sircam > emails working documents (in My Documents or whatnot folder) and this > could have happened. > > -Declan From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 26 07:58:34 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:58:34 -0500 Subject: Navajo Codetalkers to Receive Congressional Medal Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/26/code.talkers/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 26 08:03:49 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:03:49 -0500 Subject: Kuro5hin - A passel of articles of interest... Message-ID: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/ James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From tcmay at got.net Thu Jul 26 10:09:08 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:09:08 -0700 Subject: Attention to detail slacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:54 PM -0400 7/26/01, Trei, Peter wrote: >Careful, or you'll be W.A.S.T.E.d > >Oedipa was perfectly sane - it was the people around >her who were "interesting". > >TCOL49 was my first introduction to conspiracy theory >and the notion of 'hidden history'. I remember it fondly. > >Peter > Amusingly, Robert Anton Wilson claims in his book "Everything is Under Control: Conspiracies, Cults, and Cover-Ups," the following: "It has even been suggested that Pynchon is a pen name for T.C. May (see Crypto Anarchy)." The fact that both TRP and myself lived in the small coastal town of Aptos during the same years is mere coinci-dance. The fact that Wilson lives in a nearby town, Capitola, is another coinci-dance. The fact that his daughters live on the ridge opposite mine is also coinci-dance. The fact that Dr. Bob Newport, one of the original slackers, lives nearby is also just an example of there being a lot of slack in this area. (The true site for much of "Vineland," not the Mendocino forests so often claimed. Wanda Tinasky lives!) --Tyrone Slothrop -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 03:11:49 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (John Ashcroft's Powerful Penis of Punishment) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:11:49 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726101150.8607.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Oh, well, depending on how Tim might have cut and pasted, this quote: # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these persons out of # the public debate. ...could well have been Lou Freeh's directive. Good night. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 07:24:17 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:24:17 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445DA@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Hi Juniper.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "Hi Juniper", was sent from Jan Lundberg and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 26 10:40:14 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010726085633.00877e70@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: >What I meant is if each soldier's radio relays messages, you don't >need a big succeptible basestation. Problem: if each soldier's radio relays messages, it becomes relatively easy to create a soldier-seeking bullet. Just home in on the source of that radio noise, and blam. Bear From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 26 08:58:29 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:58:29 -0500 Subject: /.: Are games turning kids into jocks? Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/features/01/07/23/0321226.shtml James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From info at giganetstore.com Thu Jul 26 03:25:44 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:25:44 +0100 Subject: Construa o seu PC e tire um curso de fotografia HP Message-ID: <031304425101a71WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Construa o seu PC e tire 1 curso de Fotografia HP A giganetstore.com ajuda-o a ir de f矇rias com a hp e a ganhar um mini-curso de fotografia digital. 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Photosmart C215 49.900 ($) 248,9 (€) M獺quina Fotogr獺fica Digital C618 114.900 ($) 573,12 (€) M獺quina Fotogr獺fica Digital C912 207.900 ($) 1037,00 (€) Bandle HP C315 + P1000 119.900 ($) 598,06 (€) Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Jul 26 11:40:12 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:40:12 -0700 Subject: Attentively slacking Message-ID: <3B60640C.52EBD1B0@lsil.com> > Amusingly, Robert Anton Wilson claims in his book "Everything is > Under Control: Conspiracies, Cults, and Cover-Ups," the following: > > "It has even been suggested that Pynchon is a pen name for T.C. May > (see Crypto Anarchy)." > That would put you in your sixties. Off by more than ten years I'd guess. Though I can picture you stealing a tray from the Straight and sliding down the hill. A little harmless youthful anarchy. Wouldn't the permutation be equally likely? "It has even been suggested that T.C. May is a pseudonym for Pynchon" Fess up already! To this and the NIPC e-mail! From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 26 08:47:03 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:47:03 -0400 Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? Message-ID: When cyberpass started messing up a few weeks ago, I unsubbed there and resubbed at minder.net Several times, I've noticed that messages I sent were replied to long before I ever saw the original message come back. Yesterday I sent a message around 11AM, and just got the original back, over 24 hours later. I'm used to a delay of an hour or so, but this is ridiculous.... Here are the headers showing the delay taking place at minder (I've obscured some local nodes). Received: from minder.net-gate.com ([xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]) by AAAAA.securitydynamics.com via smtpd (for BBBBB.securitydynamics.com [xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx]) with SMTP; 26 Jul 2001 15:22:40 UT 4+ hours between pax.m.n and RSA. Received: from waste.minder.net (root at waste.minder.net [64.80.76.82]) by pax.minder.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f6QBagP81775; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:36:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bmm at waste.minder.net) 20 hours holdup between waste.m.n and pax.m.n Received: (from majordom at localhost) by waste.minder.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00895 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:07:58 -0400 Anyone else seen this? Peter Trei From sales at estokz.com Thu Jul 26 00:48:44 2001 From: sales at estokz.com (Sales) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:48:44 +0400 Subject: Award Winning Automated Daytrading Software Helps you Trade the Market Swings everyday Message-ID: <200107261454.HAA01716@ecotone.toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 27902 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Jul 26 08:49:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:49:50 -0400 Subject: Congress gives federal bureaucrats 4.6 percent raise Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010726114934.020b0ec0@mail.well.com> 2. House approves 4.6 percent pay raise The House voted overwhelmingly Wednesday night to give civilian federal employees a 4.6 percent average pay raise next year. On a 334-94 vote, the House passed the $32.7 billion fiscal 2002 Treasury-Postal appropriations bill, (H.R. 2590), which contained language approving the raise. Earlier this week, the Bush administration issued a statement opposing the 4.6 percent increase, arguing that it "would divert critical resources from programs across the government." The administration proposed a 3.6 percent raise for civilian federal employees in its fiscal 2002 budget. Bush has proposed an across-the-board 4.6 percent military raise along with additional targeted raises that would boost increases to between 5 percent and 10 percent for service members, depending on their rank. "I remain hopeful that the administration will drop its insistence on a lower raise for federal workers," Rep. James Moran, D-Va., said in a statement. Military and civilian raises have been equal in 17 of the last 20 years. Click here for related stories and links: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0701/072601pay.htm ________________________________________________________________ From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 08:57:03 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:57:03 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445E1@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found HANDS.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "HANDS", was sent from owner-cypherpunks at sirius.infonex.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From bob at black.org Thu Jul 26 12:02:58 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:02:58 -0700 Subject: SirCam exposes telecom monopolist John Wehrung, Florida's Fast Net Now Message-ID: <3B606962.A58387E8@black.org> "John Wehrung" and SirCam volunteered to this list the script of an advert *against opening comm monopolies to others*, excerpted below. JW, your "communication network" was built using the State's Eminent Domain 'powers'. Therefore the historical monopoly company must open its racks to whoever wants to hook up. Buy a clue. Extracted Script: Attached are two scripts currently in production and a New script idea for a :60 second TV spot. Please let me know what you think. Thanks! IN ENGLISH & SPANISH-- The following :30 second Spot is being cut in English & Spanish by the Univision folks sometime before tomorrow @ noon. Imagine Government Taking your Car. Sound Ridiculous? :05:23 SECONDS OR LESS [Pause HASTA LAVISTA FRED] TIME:05 Seconds The County is considering Internet regulation, Which forces one company to hand over its communication network to competitors Its a bad idea that government just shouldnt do. :10:23 SECONDS OR LESS NEW RADIO :60 Second in English & Spanish-- This spot has been cut in English and a cassette will be here tomorrow. The Spanish version will be cut also sometime tomorrow and be available for us Wednesday. Imagine if you had a company that gave people a product they liked at a price they could afford. You invest your time and money. Your company creates jobs & helps the economy. Thats what American Free Enterprise is all about. But what if the government forced you to surrender your business to your competition, so your competitors could make and sell their products at your company. Would that be fair? Of course not. But local Government is talking about taking one Companies communication network and handing it over to competitors. Its called the Open access plan & its a bad idea that will slow down high speed internet access and will raise prices. Call the Miami-Dade County commission today @ 305/375-5124 375-5124 and tell them the Open Access plan is a bad idea that Government Just shouldnt do. This message is brought to you by Florida Fast Net Now, committed to keeping government toll booths and roadblocks off the Information Super Highway. This is a BRAND NEW :60 Second Spot for TV that incorporates all changes up to date. CAR SCENARIO--#19 TUESDAY 9/2811:30AM :60 SECOND TV :07--THIS MESSAGE IS BROUGHT TO FLORIDA FAST NET NOW YOU BY FLORIDA FAST NET NOW DEDICATED TO KEEPING GOVERNMENT OFF THE INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY. :12--CAR SCENE: Full Beginning-- [Up to Imagine] :06--Imagine government taking your car. Would that be fair? Of course not. :05--HASTA LA VISTA FRED :10--But the County Commission is being lobbied on an Internet Regulation that would force one company to hand over its INTERNET TAKE OVER IS UNFAIR communication network to competitors. :05Its an unfair take over that will slow down Internet Access & raise prices. TV & INTERNET PRICES WILL GO UP :07--Call the County Commission Today and CONTACT MIAMI-DADE COUNTY tell them the Internet Take Over is a bad COMMISSION @ 305/375-5124 idea that Government just shouldnt do. SAY NO TO INTERNET TAKE OVER :06--CAR SCENE: End With car peeling out. John Wehrung 200 West College Avenue, Suite 308 Tallahassee, FL 32301 Voice: 850.681.6400 Fax: 850.681.7080 Email: jwehrung at tidewaterinc.com FAX MEMORANDUM TO: STEVE WILKERSON (681-9676) FROM: JOHN WEHRUNG DATE: SEPTEMBER 27, 1999 SUBJECT: 3 SCRIPTS From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Jul 26 12:04:21 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" Message-ID: <200107261904.f6QJ4Mr18277@artifact.psychedelic.net> Declan writes: > There seem to be three explanations. > 1. Tim is having some fun with us. Does anyone seriously think this is not the case? The alleged message mentions far too many Cypherpunk-interest topical news items in one place, and I seriously doubt the NIPC has suddenly adopted Tim's rather recognizable style of parody in its internal documents. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 09:04:29 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:04:29 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445E3@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found SAWTOOTH.DOC.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: SAWTOOTH", was sent from hkatamba and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 09:08:40 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:08:40 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445E5@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found gASTOS DE ENVIO.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "gASTOS DE ENVIO", was sent from Calipo and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 05:28:53 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (Language is a virus and the U.S. government is arresting those responsible) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:28:53 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726122853.32038.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Jim Choate, Tivoli Engineer of Quality Assurance wrote: # # 4. It's another one of those 'hahaha' virus trolls # that has been going on for a while now. # # And you guys are the 'techno-elite'.... It's official: you're dumber than a rock. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 09:36:45 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:36:45 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445E6@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found kellyres.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: kellyres", was sent from THOMAS CRAWFORD and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From reeza at flex.com Thu Jul 26 15:40:58 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:40:58 -1000 Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010726123453.00d52d10@flex.com> At 05:47 AM 7/26/01, Trei, Peter wrote: >When cyberpass started messing up a few weeks ago, >I unsubbed there and resubbed at minder.net Ditto, but at lne.com. >Anyone else seen this? No, but I received a couple of these: >From: CDR Hub Account >Message-Id: <200107261318.IAA01203 at einstein.ssz.com> >Approved: LISTMEMBER CPUNK >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com >Precedence: bulk >X-Loop: cypherpunks at lne.com With a completely blank message body. Once again, with full headers: >Return-Path: >Received: from slack.lne.com (dns.lne.com [209.157.136.81]) > by flex.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6QDJKC04445 > for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:19:20 -1000 (HST) >Received: (from majordom at localhost) > by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f6QDDGc31813 > for cypherpunks-goingout; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:13:16 -0700 >X-Authentication-Warning: slack.lne.com: majordom set sender to >owner-cypherpunks at lne.com using -f >Received: (from cpunk at localhost) by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id > f6QDDFu31791 for cypherpunks at lne.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:13:15 -0700 >Received: from hq.pro-ns.net (hq.pro-ns.net [208.200.182.20]) by > slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6QDDEx31781 for > ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:13:14 -0700 >Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by hq.pro-ns.net (8.11.3/8.11.1) id > f6QDDJR83218 for cpunk at lne.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:13:19 -0500 (CDT) >Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99]) by > hq.pro-ns.net (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f6QDCh182868 for > ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:12:44 -0500 (CDT) >Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id > IAA01203 for cypherpunks at ds.pro-ns.net; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:18:58 > -0500 >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:18:58 -0500 >From: CDR Hub Account >Message-Id: <200107261318.IAA01203 at einstein.ssz.com> >Approved: LISTMEMBER CPUNK >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com >Precedence: bulk >X-Loop: cypherpunks at lne.com >X-UIDL: Fh[!!"R*"!;),!!F0~"! Eric, is this also because of the Sircam junque? Reese From jet at tivo.com Thu Jul 26 12:43:04 2001 From: jet at tivo.com (j eric townsend) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:43:04 -0700 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:05 AM -0500 7/26/01, Aimee Farr wrote: >In RE to the DMCA/Dmitry affair, private enforcement, new intellectual >property enforcement divisions, etc. -- > >We are increasingly holding individuals criminally responsible for crimes >against corporations and many feel an imbalance, or even a double-standard, >in terms of corporate accountability for crimes against people. Isn't this the real meaning of fascism, as implemented by those wacky Axis powers and and supported by the likes of Henry Ford? -- jet at tivo.com 408.519.9509 0x19D3BAF5, 5CCF 2251 5B45 0ABA B91D AD81 4A60 3401 19D3 BAF5 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Jul 26 09:54:20 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:54:20 -0400 Subject: Attention to detail lacking Message-ID: Careful, or you'll be W.A.S.T.E.d Oedipa was perfectly sane - it was the people around her who were "interesting". TCOL49 was my first introduction to conspiracy theory and the notion of 'hidden history'. I remember it fondly. Peter > ---------- > From: Phillip H. Zakas[SMTP:pzakas at toucancapital.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 10:29 AM > To: Tim May; cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: RE: Attention to detail lacking > > Tim May Wrote: > > > I think Choate is much like this tech of mine: lacking a solid > > grounding and overly reliant on his own private notions of what > > "mass" and "energy" and "group velocity" and so on are. All the best > > cranks view the world this way. > > maybe Choate is the long lost son of oedipa maas. > > phillip From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Jul 26 05:03:48 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:03:48 +0100 Subject: Persistance of [was: Urgent Business Proposal.] References: <3.0.3.32.20010724161906.009fd540@ct2.nai.net> Message-ID: <3B600723.6D983010@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "Wilfred L. Guerin" wrote: > > This is like the 30th Nigerian bullshit solicitation in the last 2 weeks. It's been going on for years. Before there was the Internet they used to use faxes, and before that ordinary mailshots. Actually, quite a lot of this activity comes from the UK. :-) And I think Germany as well. Though it was Nigerians who started it. > I wish someone would just go down there and clear the assholes out so their > country can regain some sort of integrity... Actually I think it's kind of funny, all those clever Africans making a living out of exploiting the stupidity and greed of Europeans. It is such an egregiously obvious scam. The sort of message with "This is a trap!" written all over it in big, friendly subtextual letters. But enough people fall for it to make it worth their while. > Possibly when G8 is done, the forces can be sent to africa to bonk the > fraudsters with canisters over the head or something. People have been arrested for it in both Britain and Nigeria. There is a good chance that at least some of the spam is in fact trawling by LEOs. [...] > What a disgraceful world... Think of it as evolution in action. The only people who fall for it (and there are some) are both very criminal and VERY stupid. I mean, if someone you had never met in your life came up to you in the street and said "give me 100 dollars, and I will go away and steal 1000 dollars from some defenceless poor people and them I'll come back and give you half"... I've got no problem with freedom of speech. If some nasty man wants to make a criminal suggestion to me, that's his business. I don't need to answer if I don't want to. Neither do you. Live with it. I've got mild problems with the spam but this one is way down the list of current irritations, well below "Credit card limits" and "US wives" and those odd messages in Spanish with the crappy HTML that hangs my browser for 10 seconds. Ken Brown From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 26 11:13:10 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:13:10 -0500 Subject: Airline passengers, revisited Message-ID: Passenger Processing Using Biometrics To Be Unveiled EyeTicket Corporation, the leader in high volume public processing and access control using biometric identification, will hold a news conference on Thursday, July 26, to announce a groundbreaking new program to expedite airline passenger processing. This announcement represents the first large-scale application of passenger processing relying solely on biometrics. Details of the evaluation program, being conducted in cooperation with BAA, British Airways, UK Immigration Service and Virgin Atlantic Airways, will be unveiled during the news conference. Source: Biometric Digest ~Aimee From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 06:18:47 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:18:47 GMT Subject: Weird message from someone named =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22NIPC=22?= Message-ID: <20010726131847.11427.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Declan wrote: # # Yes, clearly I was wrong and this must be the real thing. # I urge you to start an online campaign straightaway! I'm stunned you think this is a joke. Okay, Tim, show us the SMTP header. Your ISP received it from...? From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 06:22:40 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:22:40 GMT Subject: Illegal government surveillance programs Message-ID: <20010726132240.12467.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> OH OH OH I am soooo pissed off, I'm gonna flame for the fire of it. ---- One of the most stunningly vile attempts to attack an individual occurred just a couple years ago, in 1995. The attack was itself a throwback to the old days of COINTELPRO, (Counter- Intelligence Program), a massive unconstitutional FBI operation --- one of it's most abusive ever --- to discredit the politically incorrect. * Main Justice, by Jim McGee and Brian Duffy, 1996, ISBN 0-684-81135-9 * * And it was not just the FBI. The CIA, the Pentagon and the National * Security Agency [Military] had all turned their intelligence-gathering * capabilities on American citizens. And who was targeted? Qubilah Shabazz, second oldest daughter of Malcom X. * Both Sides in Shabazz Case Say Tapes Prove Their Point * by Don Terry, The New York Times, April 1995 * * Ms. Shabazz was indicted on Jan 11 on nine counts of using the telephones * and travelling across state lines to hire a hit man to kill Mr. Farrakhan. * Eight of the counts involved taped telephone calls between Ms. Shabazz and * Mr. Fitzpatrick, a cocaine addict who faces a possible five-year prison * sentence in an unrelated drug case. [read: blackmailed] * * Of the 40 recorded conversations, 38 were initiated by Mr. Fitzpatrick. * "Most of the conversations during these calls consisted primarily of * remarks by Mr. Fitzpatrick." said defense lawyer William M. Kunstler. * [Kunstler was a silvered haired angel even while still on Earth] * * The Government had a statement initialed from Ms. Shabazz. * * "I jokingly asked Fitzpatrick if he would kill Louis Farrakhan." * * The statement was written by two FBI agents, who did not advise her of * her right to remain silent and have a lawyer present. * * Federal officials in Washington and Minneapolis say Ms. Shabazz was * 'obsessed' with killing Mr. Farrakhan, and they had enough on her to * put her away for 90 years. * * Mr. Fitzpatrick prodded her: "I'm willing to do whatever you want me to * do, this feels righteous." Ms. Shabazz replied "I don't really know * what you're asking me." Mr. Fitzpatrick later told her "I'm just going * to proceed." Qubilah Shabazz was 4 when she saw her father die in a hail of bullets in 1965. She has been a trouble woman ever since. * "...Shabazz...", The New York Times, June 8 1997 (front page) * * In telephone conversations taped by Federal prosecutors, Ms. Shabazz * acknowledged she had psychological problems and had spent time at Bellevue. Her mother long asserted Mr. Farrakhan played a role in the death of her husband. Three members of Mr. Farrakhan's Nation of Islam were convicted. And just what was so extraordinarily vile about this case? Its purpose was to tear the black community apart. Mr. Farrakhan, no fool when it comes to manipulation, joined in her defense. And: Mr. Fitzpatrick had been a high school classmate of Qubilah Shabazz. In courting her lifetime of anger at Mr. Farrakhan, he also courted her. Love. "A vile and evil seducer," said William Kunstler to the court. He had proposed to her. * "Always the Violence", The New York Times, by Bob Herbert, June 9 1997 * * Percy Sutton, a close friend of the Shabazz family for more then three * decades, said "It was so sad. This little kid [Qubilah's son Malcolm, 10] * he ended up feeling guilty because he tried to persuade his mother to * marry this guy [Fitzpatrick told the son about his marriage proposal]. * The guy told him 'We'll have our own house.' And Malcolm got all excited * and he said, 'I'll have my own bedroom?' And the guy said 'Yes, you will.'" It is safe to say this directly contributed to the burning and subsequent death of Betty Shabazz. A distraught, torn, ten-year-old suffering the effects of this persecution. He had been taken away from his mother because of Fitzpatrick. NBC Newschannel 4 NY, on the death of Betty Shabazz: "Police say the boy was upset he couldn't live with his mother." Kunstler forced the Government to drop its case... * "...Shabazz...", The New York Times, June 8 1997 * * Prosecutors dropped the case when it became * clear she had NOT committed to the crime. ...and instead settle for her getting professional counseling. Mainly to recover from what Mr. Fitzpatrick and the FBI did to her. Mr. Fitzpatrick was paid $45,000 of our tax money for his services. Mr. Fitzpatrick is a cocaine addict. Remember, it's the 1990s now: same as it ever was. ---- Tim May wrote: # # I believe Ruby Ridge was an example of a barricade situation # which didn' t need to happen. The "crime" of selling a long gun # with a barrel one quarter of an inch too short was both a "set # up" (to induce cooperation by Randy Weaver) and shouldn't have # been a crime in the first place. These are mistakes, not evidence # of a Bureau that has become incompetent or malevolent.) Not malevolent? Not malevolent? Tim, they targetted him solely to help them with one of their surveillance programs. Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge. Persisting, a BATF informant persuaded Weaver, a DECORATED GREEN BERET VETERAN of Vietnam with NO CRIMINAL RECORD, to sell him two shotguns, but insisted that Weaver saw the barrels off one-quarter inch short of the legal limit. Monitoring him, they knew Mr. Weaver needed money for his family. Why did the government target Mr. Weaver? Blackmail. One of the FBI's favorite activities is spying on political organizations. They wanted to use him to infiltrate white supremacists groups for the government. Or face prosecution. When Weaver refused, he was indicted on guns charges. He was sent two conflicting court appearance dates. He became paranoid the Government was out to get him, so he didn't show up. [He was eventually acquitted of all charges except the original not showing up in court!] To justify a militaristic retaliation, BATF agents lied to the U.S. attorney's office. BATF agents claimed that Weaver had a criminal record and that he was a suspect in several bank robberies. Both charges were fabrications, even according to BATF Director John Magaw, who admitted the accusations were "inexcusable" in testimony before Congress. THREE HUNDRED armed federal agents conducted a siege of the Weavers' mountain home, first killing Randy Weaver's dog, then his son, then his wife. A law enforcement wilding. * The CATO Institute, "Congressional Testimony", May 24, 1995 * http://www.cato.org * * The Marshals, wearing camouflage and carrying silenced machine guns, did * not identify themselves or their purpose, but they did shoot one of the * dogs. Sammy Weaver, fourteen-years-old, returned fire, and was promptly * shot by a Marshal. * * Sammy turned and fled, with his nearly severed arm flopping as he ran. * * Sammy was promptly shot dead in the back. An FBI sniper, Lon T. Horiuchi, testified he could hit a quarter at 200 yards. * The CATO Institute, "Congressional Testimony", May 24, 1995 * * An FBI psychological profile, prepared before the attack, called Vicki * Weaver the "dominant member" of the family, thus implying that if she * were "neutralized" everyone else might surrender. Horiuchi shot Weaver's wife in the head while she held her baby. Her head exploded. Her dead body was laid out on the cabin floor, covered with a blanket: [ Tim, this rates as 9 out of 10 on the malevolent scale: ] * The CATO Institute, "Congressional Testimony", May 24, 1995 * * During the next week, "the FBI used megaphones to taunt the family. * 'Good Morning Mrs. Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did * you have?'" asked the FBI agents in at least one exchange. * * Weaver's daughter, Sarah, 16, said the baby, Elisheba, was often * crying for her mother's milk when the FBI messages were heard. The Justice Department's own report recommended criminal prosecution of federal agents; the surviving Weavers won $3.1 million in civil damages from U.S. taxpayers. Deval Patrick, the Assistant Attorney General for civil rights, and Louis Freeh, Director of the FBI, took no serious action. Larry Potts was the senior official in charge of the operation. Not only was he not prosecuted, Freeh promoted him to acting deputy FBI director. * "Documents Were Destroyed as FBI Resisted Siege Investigation, Report Says" * By David Johnston, July 16, 1995 * * Mr. Pott's former subordinate Michael Kahoe admitted he destroyed key * documents on the Ruby Ridge assault. The Justice department reports * documents were destroyed and missing. "We are troubled by the apparent * lack of a system to preserve such critical records." * * The Justice Department, in a March 18, 1993 memo stated, "the FBI's * intransigence appears to EMANATE from Larry Potts level OR ABOVE." Larry Potts was a buddy of Louis Freeh. Within the FBI, these special people are called "FOL" - Friends of Louie. [NYT 5/11/97] Janet Reno (who had veto power over the promotion) testified what happened at Ruby Ridge wasn't enough to cause her to veto the promotion, foreshadowing her actions at Waco. After two months, controversy (as opposed to events) over Potts' role in Ruby Ridge prompted Freeh to remove him from the position, to politically cover his own tush. Potts and four other top FBI officials have been suspended while a federal criminal probe investigates the destruction of documents related to the incident. A total of twelve agents were disciplined. None have yet been prosecuted. The Federal government subsequently named after a U.S. Marshal who was killed, but who also shot Randy Weaver's son dead in the back: a new Marshals training center. The Federal government's behavior in the incident can only be described as sickening: targeting a citizen (a veteran, no less) who committed no crime AND EVEN HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD (but had politically incorrect views) for blackmail, then acting vengefully when he wouldn't act as their rat fink. Shoot-to-kill. Sniper team. Military fatigues. A terrorizing organization: how else to explain the cruel cruel taunting. A terrorist organization by virtue of shoot-to-kill orders. ---- What did that one thing say again? * Main Justice, by Jim McGee and Brian Duffy, 1996, ISBN 0-684-81135-9 * * And it was not just the FBI. The CIA, the Pentagon and the National * Security Agency [Military] had all turned their intelligence-gathering * capabilities on American citizens. Who are the lead team members is this new surveillance unit? http://www.infowar.com/law/01/law_050701b_j.shtml # # The center (NIPC) coordinates the cyber-terrorism fighting efforts # of the federal government, including the Justice Department, # the Pentagon, the CIA, the National Security Agency... Who is targeted by this surveillance program? # Agents are advised to seek out means of forcing these [crypto # anarchists] out of the public debate. Tim, know of anyone who would call themselves a "crypto anarchist"? Someone the government considered dangerous and was actively [yea SirCam intelligence] targeted by this latest government surveillance program of politically incorrect citizens? A U.S. government surveillance program with marching orders to squash citizens and their public debate. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 26 11:22:49 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:22:49 -0500 Subject: Business wants a new, profitable internet Message-ID: Yep, the root of all evil is 'government', unrestrained economic trade will save us all...not http://slashdot.org/yro/01/07/26/1553257.shtml James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 26 13:41:27 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:41:27 -0700 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726133647.040499b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:24 PM 7/26/2001 +0000, Steve Thompson wrote: >Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com): > > I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author of _Corporate > > Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park > > Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted them to visit > > the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' > >How strange. It's always individuals working within a corporation who should >be culpable for offences committed as a result of its business practices. >Will this not have the effect of divorcing personal responsibility further >from the executive and employees of a company? > >Furthermore, might not the `death' of a company in some cases penalise other >companies which depend on the products or services of the `offender' leading >to a reluctance to prosecute the largest and arguably the worst criminals? > >At least when the responsible individuals are prosecuted, there is an >opportunity to `clean house' and reform the offending institution, as it >were. Would holding both the corporation and its executives libel for the same crime constitute a form of double jeopardy ;-) Is it possible for the injured parties to criminally prosecute the alleged offenders under federal law (i.e., substitute for the DOJ)? If not, then that is what is needed. The govenment should not enjoy a privileged position on enforcement of criminal statutes. steve From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 26 13:54:18 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible Internet Split (plan D) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/yro/01/07/26/1553257.shtml These are a bunch of people who want to make fundamental architectural changes to the internet, to make it so they can prevent people from getting services unless they are paid money. Oddly enough, this comes at a time when I've been thinking very seriously about some of the implications of "Plan D." Basically, we need to think very hard about the infrastructure, if we intend to build something that is truly censorship-proof (as opposed to merely content-neutral). Mojo nation and freenet are current appoximations, but they work over the Internet, and that may be their downfall. The problem with Plan D, if implemented over the current Internet, is that the low levels of the internet are a tree rather than a proper network. There are choke points and listening points at which all of a particular person's traffic can be guaranteed to be intercepted. Every packet that traverses the internet can be queried to see where it's going, where it came from, how many hops it has left to live, etc. Most are associated with particular applications, and easily identifiable by a port number contained in the packet headers. Encrypted traffic stands out. Mixes are complicated by the absence of true broadcast (radio, ethernet in promiscuous mode, anything...) anywhere in the infrastructure, with the result that while you may not be able to tell which of the Mixers are responsible for a particular packet, but you can damn sure tell who the Mixers are, and if the Mix becomes enough of a problem you can outlaw it and stomp anybody who traffics in its characteristic packets. Every "solution" to these problems requires identifiable nodes to traffic in detectable types of packets over an increasingly monitored and controlled infrastructure. And the business types, as well as the pols, who haven't been able to cope with the internet's chaotic nature, want the infrastructure *more* monitored and *more* controlled. Since these are the groups that have the money and the power, respectively, they *will* get their way. Most cypherpunkish "dream" applications don't stand a chance of actually surviving full-out censorship and the descendants of the DMCA, in this network or the network that these people want to build. So, while these guys want to make the Internet into some kind of centrally-controlled monopoly, I've been wanting to create something that goes completely the other direction -- a "chaos web" with its own routing and switching and content-migration algorithms, designed specifically to facilitate the desire of some or all nodes and operators to remain impenetrable, uncensorable, and content-unlinkable to any unauthorized listener or would-be spoofer, regardless of the resources (including government) the would-be attacker has available. Characteristics of a "chaos web" include mobile content -- an idea already espoused by mojo nation and freenet -- but that means you can't hook up the database servers on the other end of your website and monitor where the people go, so mainstream businesses will probably not use a chaos web. ultimately though, it comes down to some kind of alternate infrastructure. Bear From bmm at minder.net Thu Jul 26 11:05:44 2001 From: bmm at minder.net (Brian Minder) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? In-Reply-To: <20010726092648.A4503@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: Sircam is indeed the culprit. minder.net usually delivers from 10^5 to 10^6 messages a day. Since this latest worm the average has risen by an order of magnitude, though things have slowed down quite a bit in the last 24 hours. We're working though the backlog. As some of the mail I deliver is for paying, privacy oriented customers I'm obliged not to peek or filter to mitigate the situation as Eric has done. Thanks, -Brian On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Eric Murray wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 11:47:03AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > > When cyberpass started messing up a few weeks ago, > > I unsubbed there and resubbed at minder.net > > > > Several times, I've noticed that messages I sent were > > replied to long before I ever saw the original message > > come back. > > > > Yesterday I sent a message around 11AM, and just > > got the original back, over 24 hours later. > > > > I'm used to a delay of an hour or so, but this is > > ridiculous.... > > The CDRs are busy passing LOTS of copies of Sircam between themselves. > It got so bad that I had to limit the size of incoming mail to lne. > > I'm also having problems getting CDR mail into minder.net. I expect > that they're swamped. > > > Eric From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 11:10:31 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:10:31 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445EC@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found WehrungMemo.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: WehrungMemo", was sent from John Wehrung and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ichudov at Algebra.COM Thu Jul 26 12:10:54 2001 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:10:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus In-Reply-To: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445EC@bambi.pc.cognex.com> from "ANTIGEN_BAMBI" at Jul 26, 2001 02:10:31 PM Message-ID: <200107261910.f6QJAtp20168@manifold.algebra.com> all antigen bambi messages will be filtered out at algebra.com igor ANTIGEN_BAMBI wrote: > > > Antigen for Exchange found WehrungMemo.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A > (Sophos) virus. > The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: WehrungMemo", was > sent from John Wehrung and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound > located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. > - Igor. From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 26 14:28:18 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:28:18 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Dr." measl at mfn.org wrote: > What is this pseudo-macho crap? It's an explanation of why I'm turning down the rhetoric. Where were you (and your pseudo-psychological crap) when I was turning UP the rhetoric? > You have some kind of serious > personality problem Sandfort. WHAT kind and HOW serious, oh wise one? Your clearly reasoned, diplomatically phrased and thoughtful missive has both touched and concerned me. :-( S a n d y /| |/ \ / \ \ / \ \ / \ \ /_______\/ | | | | | o | | | //// | | | ||||| | | | (.)~(x) | | | | O | | | | (_=_) | | | |_| | | | | | |WHERE IS | | | DILDO? | | |_________|/ From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Thu Jul 26 12:42:09 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:42:09 -0500 Subject: Camera fines may top $160M Message-ID: http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20010726-98590728.htm James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 12:01:31 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:01:31 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445EE@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 20000301FrPatterson.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 20000301FrPatterson", was sent from Christine Burns and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 12:08:35 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:08:35 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445F0@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 20000301FrPatterson.doc.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 20000301FrPatterson", was sent from Christine Burns and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From stevet at sendon.net Thu Jul 26 08:24:44 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:24:44 +0000 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? References: Message-ID: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com): > I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author of _Corporate > Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park > Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted them to visit > the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' How strange. It's always individuals working within a corporation who should be culpable for offences committed as a result of its business practices. Will this not have the effect of divorcing personal responsibility further from the executive and employees of a company? Furthermore, might not the `death' of a company in some cases penalise other companies which depend on the products or services of the `offender' leading to a reluctance to prosecute the largest and arguably the worst criminals? At least when the responsible individuals are prosecuted, there is an opportunity to `clean house' and reform the offending institution, as it were. > http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2001/000081.html It might be amusing to consider how many deaths Microsoft has caused. You know, all the strokes, heart-attacks, and anurysms resulting directly from the frustration of having to re-install Windows after the n-th crash or virus infection and the concomitant loss of data. Let's have a two minute hate. Chant "Lynch Bill Gates!" with your nearest Party comrades when ready. Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From measl at mfn.org Thu Jul 26 13:29:13 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:29:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What is this pseudo-macho crap? You have some kind of serious personality problem Sandfort. On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > As I think I've demonstrated, filters don't work. Nevertheless, I'm getting > tired of beating the crap out of Jimbo. There's no challenge any more; it's > just too darned easy. So I think I'll back off for a while and just give > him the occasional bloody nose along with Tim, Declan, Petro and a host of > others. > > We return you to our regular programming, now in progress. > > > S a n d y > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From aimee.farr at pobox.com Thu Jul 26 13:56:53 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:56:53 -0500 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: > Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com): > > I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author > of _Corporate > > Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park > > Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted > them to visit > > the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' > > How strange. It's always individuals working within a > corporation who should > be culpable for offences committed as a result of its business practices. > Will this not have the effect of divorcing personal responsibility further > from the executive and employees of a company? Pht. Doan' ask me, I have law school programming. Just us sheeple reporting in. ~FLUFFY From Dmitry_Rubinstein at icomverse.com Thu Jul 26 06:16:31 2001 From: Dmitry_Rubinstein at icomverse.com (Rubinstein, Dmitry) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:16:31 +0300 Subject: spam & new user Message-ID: <767720C6032ED511AE8C00508BE3518E011CB451@ISMAILWEB> Hello, dear cypherpunks! I subscribed to this mailing list after having read the "Cryptonomicon" novel by Neal Stephenson (which some of you may be familiar with). I've read that this mailing list audience is supposedly similar to the "Secret Admirers" list depicted in the book. While subscribing I've been warned that this is a high volume list. So, I've been on the list for 3 days now. All I got is 3 spams (one in a language I don't understand but suspect to be either Spanish or Portuguese) and a single request for help with a single response. Now, my question is, is this a typical phenomenon or are all cypherpunks happen to be on holidays these days? (Correction, it's 4 spams now. Seems to be high volume indeeed). And, while at it, a question on topic: does anyone here has any idea about how widespread the secure e-mail is? By secure e-mail I mean: 1. SSL over IMAP/POP/SMTP 2. S/MIME vs. PGP 3. All kinds of web based secure e-mail systems, such as hushmail. How much is this all "power user" stuff, do the "regular people" use these communication means? -- Dmitry Rubinstein -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu Thu Jul 26 14:30:03 2001 From: iang at abraham.cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:30:03 -0400 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010724102659.03558860@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3B5E66E7.19729.1368F157@localhost> Message-ID: In article <3B5E66E7.19729.1368F157 at localhost>, Roy M. Silvernail wrote: >With an adapter, I can run a 802.11 >card from the CF socket, I think. (drivers might be tricky) You don't need an adapter: http://www.symbol.com/products/wireless/la4137.html It's an 802.11 card in a Compact Flash socket. - Ian From virus at exchange.waldonet.net.mt Thu Jul 26 08:38:15 2001 From: virus at exchange.waldonet.net.mt (virus at exchange.waldonet.net.mt) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:38:15 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time) Subject: InterScan NT Alert Message-ID: <200107261612.JAA29915@toad.com> Receiver, InterScan has detected virus(es) in the e-mail attachment. Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:38:15 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time) Method: Mail From: To: File: POLICY FOR GROUP BOOKINGS.doc.pif Action: clean failed - deleted Virus: TROJ_SIRCAM.A From info at xarapalace.com.mt Thu Jul 26 08:38:49 2001 From: info at xarapalace.com.mt (Xara Palace) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:38:49 +0200 Subject: POLICY FOR GROUP BOOKINGS Message-ID: Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: InterScan_Disclaimer.txt URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 14:44:30 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:44:30 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF445FD@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found MEDIDAS-PESOS-PRESIONES.xls.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: MEDIDAS-PESOS-PRESIONES", was sent from Benicio Molina Delgado and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 26 18:38:27 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:38:27 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010726085633.00877e70@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726183827.0088b340@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:40 AM 7/26/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > >>What I meant is if each soldier's radio relays messages, you don't >>need a big succeptible basestation. > > >Problem: if each soldier's radio relays messages, it becomes >relatively easy to create a soldier-seeking bullet. Just home >in on the source of that radio noise, and blam. > > Bear 1. ok, soldiers are cheap, if CNN isn't there to watch 2. think intermittent. like the russian bug in the wall. 3. if you toast a mil base station, all your fodder are toast dh From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 26 18:43:57 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:43:57 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726184357.00881370@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:19 PM 7/26/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >>Problem: if each soldier's radio relays messages, it becomes >>relatively easy to create a soldier-seeking bullet. Just home >>in on the source of that radio noise, and blam. > >Hence, LPI. Spread-spectrum, UWB, directed transmissions in the high >microwave bands, and so on. Dunno how useful the latter are for portable >equipment, though, or in the battlefield conditions. Bear has a point; no matter how you spread or hop, you're an emitter. Shoot anything that radiates from 50 Mhz-IR. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Jul 26 18:50:27 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:50:27 -0700 Subject: Possible Internet Split (plan D) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726185027.0088f400@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:54 PM 7/26/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Oddly enough, this comes at a time when I've been thinking very >seriously about some of the implications of "Plan D." Basically, >we need to think very hard about the infrastructure, if we intend >to build something that is truly censorship-proof (as opposed to >merely content-neutral). Mojo nation and freenet are current >appoximations, but they work over the Internet, and that may be >their downfall. All your comments are correct, but forget replacing the IPv6 protos for about 50 years. From bob at black.org Thu Jul 26 18:55:01 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:55:01 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist) Message-ID: <3B60C9F4.BF032A2@black.org> At 02:28 PM 7/26/01 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >"Dr." measl at mfn.org wrote: > >> What is this pseudo-macho crap? > >It's an explanation of why I'm turning down the rhetoric. Where were you >(and your pseudo-psychological crap) when I was turning UP the rhetoric? > >> You have some kind of serious >> personality problem Sandfort. > >WHAT kind and HOW serious, oh wise one? Your clearly reasoned, >diplomatically phrased and thoughtful missive has both touched and concerned >me. :-( Don't worry Sandy, he's not using cypherpunks as the control population... From bob at black.org Thu Jul 26 18:58:18 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:58:18 -0700 Subject: FC: Example of confidential email accidentally sent from FBI'S NIPC Message-ID: <3B60CABA.56A43336@black.org> At 09:48 PM 7/26/01 GMT, George at orwellian.org wrote: > >Tim's request for help was an elaborately detailed lie. > And your point is? >Tim didn't post for a couple weeks. > >When he was back, it was a new Tim. You need a med adjustment. >I can handle all the Choate crap. I rest my case. From sandfort at mindspring.com Thu Jul 26 19:10:54 2001 From: sandfort at mindspring.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:10:54 -0700 Subject: WHERE IS DILDO? (was: The Martian Private-Socialist-Anarchist) In-Reply-To: <3B60C9F4.BF032A2@black.org> Message-ID: "Subcommander Bob" wrote: > >"Dr." measl at mfn.org wrote: > >... > >> You have some kind of serious > >> personality problem Sandfort. > >... > Don't worry Sandy, he's not using > cypherpunks as the control > population... Yeah, around here, my quirks are lost in the background noise. :-D S a n d y /| |/ \ / \ \ / \ \ / \ \ /_______\/ | | | | | o | | | //// | | | ||||| | | | (.)~(x) | | | | O | | | | (_=_) | | | |_| | | | | | |WHERE IS | | | DILDO? | | |_________|/ From bob at black.org Thu Jul 26 19:25:41 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:25:41 -0700 Subject: Assasination Politics in the Middle East Message-ID: <3B60D124.D1C17393@black.org> At 06:39 PM 7/25/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 05:11 PM 07/23/2001 -0700, Mr. Falun Gong wrote: > >>Ok, the Subject line is a bit of a stretch, as there's no anon payment, >>but it is interesting nonetheless. >> >> Israel to look into Arafat murder ad >> By SAUD ABU RAMADAN >> >> GAZA, July 23 (UPI) -- Israel's attorney general on Monday said he >>would consider opening a criminal investigation into an advertisement that >>urged anyone who had the opportunity to murder Palestinian leader Yasser >>Arafat, the Haaretz newspaper reported. > >I saw a wire-service article the other day that said that >Ariel Sharon's government had put out or endorsed a list of >radical fanatic extremist Palestinian group leaders who were targets for >assassination in revenge for the recent bombings in Israel. >Perhaps the article got mangled in translation or >I misread it because the train was noisy, >but it sure looked that way. It didn't mention Arafat You're confusing two reports. FG wrote about *private citizens* calling for a whack via newspaper ad, which pisses off Israel the Govt as much as the Arizonans sniping immigrants on their own. Or taking out an ad calling for the whacking of Vincente Fox, fer instance. Recently, both Israel and the Palestinians gave lists of people they want to whack/imprison to the CIA (who is playing fnord nanny). These latter are official "gummint" actions. That's what you read about most recently. ....... PS: Lets hope "Mr. Falun Gong" amuses the folks at cnnic.cn.... From schear at lvcm.com Thu Jul 26 19:26:34 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:26:34 -0700 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: <200107262227.SAA24714@divert.sendon.net> References: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726133647.040499b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726192120.0406cb58@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:07 PM 7/26/2001 +0000, Steve Thompson wrote: >Quoting Steve Schear (schear at lvcm.com): > > Would holding both the corporation and its executives libel for the same > > crime constitute a form of double jeopardy ;-) > >I don't see how that could be. Blame and punitive sanctions are, if I am not >mistaken, apportioned according to degree of culpability. > > > Is it possible for the injured parties to criminally prosecute the alleged > >But is it practical to do so? Grand Juries could be required to equally consider law enforcement and independent prosecutions. From a economic standpoint, if the aggrieved parties first win a big civil judgement against the companies it could fund a substantial criminal prosecution effort. It also might serve to reduce the degree of discretionary prosecutions so many decry. > > offenders under federal law (i.e., substitute for the DOJ)? If not, then > > that is what is needed. The govenment should not enjoy a privileged > > position on enforcement of criminal statutes. From bob at black.org Thu Jul 26 19:27:44 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:27:44 -0700 Subject: turning off your computer turns away hackers Message-ID: <3B60D1A0.E1E799DF@black.org> "turning off your computer turns away hackers" ---from the banner ad of the 'privacy leadership initiative' as seen on drudgereport.com "Yep" From declan at well.com Thu Jul 26 16:44:55 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:44:55 -0400 Subject: FC: Example of confidential email accidentally sent from FBI'S NIPC In-Reply-To: <20010726214854.3699.qmail@vpop1.superb.net>; from George@orwellian.org on Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 09:48:54PM +0000 References: <20010726214854.3699.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Message-ID: <20010726194455.A8993@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 09:48:54PM +0000, George at orwellian.org wrote: > Tim's request for help was an elaborately detailed lie. Oh, it's humor. I took it half-seriously until I actually read it through. > Politech will do for me from now on, anything really > important will be echoed there. True! :) > I can't handle a cypherpunks list without the real Tim May. Same here, but I don't think Tim has changed at all. -Declan From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 17:47:48 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:47:48 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44601@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found xip02.zip.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: xip02", was sent from h and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From phelix at nowhere.invalid Thu Jul 26 18:58:08 2001 From: phelix at nowhere.invalid (phelix at nowhere.invalid) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:58:08 -0500 Subject: SirCam References: <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <00d601c11523$a4073920$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <3.0.6.32.20010725103112.009d7780@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On 26 Jul 2001 17:07:29 -0500, David Honig wrote: > >"Jan" sounds like he was dicked around by "Juniper", pretty badly, from >Jan's telling of it. There's also an "officers killed in action" >spreadsheet from Portsmouth VA. This could be bad for some folks. The first one I got today had someone's financial records in it (one month of their checkbook in an excel spreadsheet). 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Over and over again? - My Strategy Works Month After Month. No Chance Or Luck Needed. - I've Used It To Make $1,200,000+ In Online Sales. Hugely scalable. Free report, CLICK HERE: http://www.banneradmagic.com/mtg.htm ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ >> Moderator Comments >> Q & A QUESTIONS: - My computer is asking for a .vxd file? ANSWERS: - Can images be coded so they cannot be downloaded? L. Seider: Simple java script will eliminate the right click function >> MEMBER SHOWCASES >> MEMBER *REVIEWS* - Sites to Review: #137, & #138! - Three new sites to review! - Site #136 Reviewed! ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> Moderator Comments <<<<<< Hello All Subscribers, First, I want to thank you for your participation and the great input I'm receiving in answers to questions, on the Member Reviews, and tips and information. I'm impressed with the knowledge out there and the willingness to help out your fellow subscribers. Second, I also wanted to let you know, we are growing so fast that we have already outgrown our current list hosting system. Because of this, you may have experienced problems with editing your information or unsubscribing, or a delay in receiving our publications. So, over the weekend we will be moving. This new system will allow for easier subscribing, editing of your information, and unsubscribing. Also, we will have changes to the layout, including sending the Your Membership Exchange in text format to cut down on the size. Your Membership Community & Commentary will still be delivered in html format (if you can receive it this way) on Fridays. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at mailto:Moderator at AEOpublishing.com Thank you for your patience through these changes! Amy Mossel Moderator ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<< Submit your questions & answers to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com QUESTIONS: From davida at tctwest.net Thu Jul 26 21:02:07 2001 From: davida at tctwest.net (David & Kim Angell) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:02:07 Subject: Turn $25.00 into $500,000 Message-ID: <200107270559.f6R5xCJ07315@rigel.cyberpass.net> > Like you, I have probably deleted more of these get rich quick mails than > I could care to remember! > > However, I read about this program in the newspaper and then saw it on TV > and thought why not give it a try? Someone is going to make money out of > this, why shouldn't it be me? > > This program claims that people can make over half a million dollars ever > every 4 to 5 months from their home for a one-time investment of only $25 > U.S. Dollars. > > Yeah right? That was my reaction too but if you do the math you can see > where they are coming from. > > Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly > news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the > program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The > show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.Their findings > proved once and for all that there are "absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the > participation in the program and if people can follow the simple > instructions, they are bound to make a lot of money with only $25 out of > pocket cost". > > DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY AND RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS > ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. > > This is what existing users had to say: > > "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before > but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see > what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. > To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money > still coming in". > > Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. > > Here is another testimonial: > > "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. > But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my > $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa... 3 weeks later > the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next > 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 > months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am > playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the > simple steps and to NOT change anything. > > More testimonials later but first, > > ** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ** > > FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME > TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: > > Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. For each report, send $5 > CASH, THE NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to > the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE > YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN THE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of > any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of > the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on > your computer and resell them. > > YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. Within a few days you will receive, via > e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save > them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the > 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also, make a floppy of > these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your > computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed > next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than > what is instructed below in step "1 through 6" or you will loose out on > the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you > will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method > has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried > to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get > all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have > tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So, do not try to change > anything other than what is instructed. If you do, it will not work for > you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! > > 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and > REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. (This person has > made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting his fortune.) > > 2. Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT #5. > > 3. Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4. > > 4. Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3. > > 5. Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2 > > 6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position. > > ** VERY IMPORTANT: PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU COPY EVERY NAME AND ADDRESS > ACCURATELY! > > Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on > your Computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well > just in case if you lose any data. > > To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports > you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which > includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free > classified ads and much more. > > THERE ARE 2 PRIMARY METHODS TO GET THIS VENTURE GOING: > > METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY > > Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we > will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's > also assume that the mailing receives only a 0.2% response (the response > could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people > will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 > each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With > a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for Report #1. Those 10 people > responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. Out of > those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people > responded and ordered Report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails > each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 > orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a > total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 > orders for Report #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for > a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is > 100,000 orders for Report #5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = > $500,000.00 (half million). > > Your total income in this example is: > > $50+ > > $500+ > > $5,000 + > > $50,000+ > > $500,000 > > Grand Total = $555,550.00 > > NUMBERS DO NOT LIE.GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE > RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF > MONEY! REMEMBER, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU > MAILED TO. > > Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half, or even > one quarter of those people, mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There > are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. > Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! > > METHOD #2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET > > Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE > places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily > get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method #1 and > add METHOD #2 as you go along. > > For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they > ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This > will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address > on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive > the report. > > ___________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________ > > ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. > > Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks are NOT > accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 > sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBERand NAME > of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and > postal address. > > PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: > > Report #1:"The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" > Order Report #1 from: > > Kimberly Angell > 4 Image Drive > Lovell, Wy 82431 > USA > > Report #2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Net" > Order Report #2 from: > > J. Warne > P. O. Box 310 > Lakeside, CA 92040-9998 > USA > > Report #3:"The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" > Order Report #3 from: > > Colt Hall > P.O. Box 2812 > Midland, TX 79702-2812 > USA > > Report #4:"How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" > Order Report #4 from: > > Bernadine Bohmbach > 6501 87th St. NW > Burlington, ND 58722 > USA > > Report #5:"How to Send 1 Million E-mails For Free" > Order Report #5 from: > > Kimik > P. O. Box 175 > Alta Loma, CA 91701-0175 > USA > > Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: > > * If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, > continue sending e-mails until you do. > > * After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should > receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2.If you did not, continue > advertising or sending e-mails until you do. > > * Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, > because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue > to roll in! > > THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: > > * Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front > of a different report. You can keep track of your progress by watching > whichreport people are ordering from you. > > * IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E- MAILS AND > START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can > generate from this business!!! > > THE FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: > > "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom > for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. > You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have > ever imagined. > > Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.It > works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this > exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 > andmoved others to #2.... #5 as instructed above. One of the people you > send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on > every one of them.Remember though, the more you send out the more > potential customers you will reach.So my friend, I have given you the > ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially > independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! > > ********** MORE TESTIMONIALS*********** > > "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an > accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. > When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk > mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the > population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody > totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in > with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old > "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on > me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days > she had received a total of $147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have > joined Jody in her "hobby". > > Mitchell Wolf, M.D., Chicago, Illinois > > "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind > to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that > the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I > wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised > when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made > $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that > it does not matter where people live. > > There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big". > > Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada > > "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if > I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to > get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone > else...11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not delete > this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came > within 22 weeks". > > Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. > > "It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with > little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and > within 10 days the money started to come in. In my first month I made $ > 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ > 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to Internet". > > Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand > > ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON OUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! > > If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the > Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade > Commission, Bureau of > > Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. > > ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE > > This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. Per > Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you > by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by replying > to this email with the word "Remove" in the subject line. > > This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, > screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. From bmm at minder.net Thu Jul 26 18:05:39 2001 From: bmm at minder.net (Brian Minder) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010726123453.00d52d10@flex.com> Message-ID: These are likely due to disks filling up at ssz (due to SirCam). Thanks, -Brian On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Reese wrote: > No, but I received a couple of these: > > >From: CDR Hub Account > >Message-Id: <200107261318.IAA01203 at einstein.ssz.com> > >Approved: LISTMEMBER CPUNK > >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > >Precedence: bulk > >X-Loop: cypherpunks at lne.com > > With a completely blank message body. > > Once again, with full headers: > > >Return-Path: > >Received: from slack.lne.com (dns.lne.com [209.157.136.81]) > > by flex.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6QDJKC04445 > > for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:19:20 -1000 (HST) > >Received: (from majordom at localhost) > > by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f6QDDGc31813 > > for cypherpunks-goingout; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:13:16 -0700 > >X-Authentication-Warning: slack.lne.com: majordom set sender to > >owner-cypherpunks at lne.com using -f > >Received: (from cpunk at localhost) by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id > > f6QDDFu31791 for cypherpunks at lne.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:13:15 -0700 > >Received: from hq.pro-ns.net (hq.pro-ns.net [208.200.182.20]) by > > slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f6QDDEx31781 for > > ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:13:14 -0700 > >Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by hq.pro-ns.net (8.11.3/8.11.1) id > > f6QDDJR83218 for cpunk at lne.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:13:19 -0500 (CDT) > >Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99]) by > > hq.pro-ns.net (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f6QDCh182868 for > > ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:12:44 -0500 (CDT) > >Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id > > IAA01203 for cypherpunks at ds.pro-ns.net; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:18:58 > > -0500 > >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:18:58 -0500 > >From: CDR Hub Account > >Message-Id: <200107261318.IAA01203 at einstein.ssz.com> > >Approved: LISTMEMBER CPUNK > >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com > >Precedence: bulk > >X-Loop: cypherpunks at lne.com > >X-UIDL: Fh[!!"R*"!;),!!F0~"! > > Eric, is this also because of the Sircam junque? > > Reese From stevet at sendon.net Thu Jul 26 14:07:54 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:07:54 +0000 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? References: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726133647.040499b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <200107262227.SAA24714@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Steve Schear (schear at lvcm.com): > Would holding both the corporation and its executives libel for the same > crime constitute a form of double jeopardy ;-) I don't see how that could be. Blame and punitive sanctions are, if I am not mistaken, apportioned according to degree of culpability. > Is it possible for the injured parties to criminally prosecute the alleged But is it practical to do so? > offenders under federal law (i.e., substitute for the DOJ)? If not, then > that is what is needed. The govenment should not enjoy a privileged > position on enforcement of criminal statutes. Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From aal55757 at cfe.gob.mx Thu Jul 26 19:19:28 2001 From: aal55757 at cfe.gob.mx (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?adanal=40uidgn=2Ecfemex=2Ecom?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:19:28 -0500 Subject: Regularizaciones Message-ID: <200107261324.f6QDOS829934@uidgn.cfemex.com> Hola como estas ? Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista Nos vemos pronto, gracias. -------------- next part -------------- ------------------ Virus Warning Message (on the network) Regularizaciones.xls.bat is removed from here because it contains a virus. --------------------------------------------------------- From decoy at iki.fi Thu Jul 26 11:19:38 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:19:38 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Problem: if each soldier's radio relays messages, it becomes >relatively easy to create a soldier-seeking bullet. Just home >in on the source of that radio noise, and blam. Hence, LPI. Spread-spectrum, UWB, directed transmissions in the high microwave bands, and so on. Dunno how useful the latter are for portable equipment, though, or in the battlefield conditions. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From George at orwellian.org Thu Jul 26 14:48:54 2001 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:48:54 GMT Subject: FC: Example of confidential email accidentally sent from FBI'S NIPC Message-ID: <20010726214854.3699.qmail@vpop1.superb.net> Declan wrote: % % [unfortunately, or fortunately, this is a joke] # From: Tim May # Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" # To: cypherpunks at lne.com # Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:42:34 -0700 # # Cypherpunks, # # I've been getting anywhere from 10 to 30 "SirCam" worm messages a # day. The volume is now declining. Most have attached files containing # fragments of Microsoft Word documents, apparently extracted from the # disk drive of the sender. Most are the usual garbage people write to # each other, but some of the ones from corporations have been # interesting. Tim's request for help was an elaborately detailed lie. I presumed he had the non-forgeable IP [extremely hard to forge] recorded by his ISP to backup receipt of the email from an appropriate .gov address. Politech will do for me from now on, anything really important will be echoed there. ---- Tim didn't post for a couple weeks. When he was back, it was a new Tim. One who: o said the FBI wasn't malevolent in the Weaver case o acted like a wimp regarding saying Adobe would suffer recruiting problems despite having extensively posted "needs killing" before [ Adobe will be suffering for a long time to come. (Note to our FBI monitors: This is NOT a threat against Adobe. Note to Cypherpunks: With feebs like the Feebs out there, one can never assume that ordinary figures of speech will be understood.) ] o posted an elaborate "Agent Provocateur" lie regarding receipt of NIPC traffic I can handle all the Choate crap. I can't handle a cypherpunks list without the real Tim May. Let Dmitry rot in jail with a lightbulb on 24/7, I no longer care. I'm unsubscriving, don't let the door hit me in the ass and all that. Enjoy your Choate, y'all, that's all that's left. From bear at sonic.net Thu Jul 26 21:50:33 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: where's dildo? if he's not white, at Texas Southern University In-Reply-To: <3B5EEE0A.87DAEEAA@black.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: >Report: TSU Law School Admissions Too Easy You know, I don't have a problem with a school that's easy to get into. Heck, I graduated from one. It is right and proper that there should be schools easy to get into. It is also right and proper that the graduating classes at such schools are about a quarter or a third the size of the incoming classes (and that after a bunch of people transfer in as sophomores or juniors from community colleges). I say let the people try. If they truly can do the work, then let them graduate. If not, well, at least they had the chance. If they're paying their own way, it's no skin off anybody else's nose, and I'd say it's their right to hire teachers if they can. It's graduations that should be hard, not admissions. Bear From bmoeller at hrzpub.tu-darmstadt.de Thu Jul 26 13:25:39 2001 From: bmoeller at hrzpub.tu-darmstadt.de (Bodo Moeller) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Vengeance Against Adobe In-Reply-To: <20010724133131.B10569@positron.mit.edu> References: <9jjv8v$1tr$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <20010724133131.B10569@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: Riad S. Wahby : > Ian Goldberg wrote: >> I've never used Distiller; is it more than a Postscript-to-PDF >> converter? The free ps2pdf is part of ghostscript. > It is just a ps to pdf converter, but it generates better PDFs than > ps2pdf (that is, smaller, better font handling, etc). In recent ghostscript version, ps2pdf has become much better than it used to be. And for LaTeX stuff you can totally avoid PostScript by using pdflatex, which should be part of every good TeX distribution these days. From alan at clueserver.org Thu Jul 26 22:35:02 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird message from someone named "NIPC" In-Reply-To: <20010726015030.F2642@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Now that I've actually read through some of what Tim posted, I think > it's clear what it is. Hint: Vatis wasn't in charge of NIPC by June > 29, and I don't recall any such hearing, and his reported comments > are a little, well, unusual. --Declan "A mind-fuck is a terrible thing to waste." alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "All power is derived from the barrel of a gnu." - Mao Tse Stallman From stevet at sendon.net Thu Jul 26 15:39:20 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:39:20 +0000 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? References: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: <200107262336.TAA27285@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com): > Pht. Doan' ask me, I have law school programming. In cobol, perchance? > Just us sheeple reporting in. As you were. > ~FLUFFY Regards, B1FF -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Jul 26 20:49:46 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:49:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Criminalizing crypto criticism (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:53:02 -0400 From: David Jablon To: Matt Blaze Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism At 07:13 PM 7/25/01 -0400, Matt Blaze wrote: >(Fortunately, as far as I know WEP isn't used for copy protection, >so it's still legal to disseminate and traffic in this kind >of information...) > >-matt A strange thought, With these great new laws, there is no longer any risk of being legally criticised for using even the most glaringly flawed cryptography -- just use it for Copy Protection, and TADA! Negative criticism magically disappears. Almost by definition. Flaws can only be exposed by those who won't show their work, or from anonymous sources, who nobody will trust without confirmation from named reputable sources, or from those who risk going to jail, who all must surely be disreputable crackpots. So, I suppose we should be happy that we've removed those nasty costs associated with developing, marketing, and deploying absolutely perfect crypto, and on a shoestring budget, to boot. It's a no brainer. Everything works! You say it's broken? You must be mistaken. I dare you to show me how. Yet, on a sad note, public crypto research has to stop. One might think it could survive in purely academic circles. But no, you'd have to be a fool to criticise even an academic paper. Anybody, perhaps the resentful author, could co-opt the work for Copy Protection, and off to jail you go. We seem to be entering the twilight zone -- the end of an exciting, but brief era -- of public cryptography. -- David --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jul 26 23:13:55 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:13:55 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <3B60A433.4798.169FA19@localhost> -- > In addition the fact that a previous protestor had put a board through the > window only goes to demonstrate the high level of emotional disruption > these officers were exposed to. Panicking is not justification for making > a wrong decision. > > Deadly force was not in any way justified. A well armed cop had just been slammed twice by a two by four and once by a four inch steel pipe. A protester was about to hurl a fire extinguisher at him. He shot the guy Justified or not, would not you have done the same? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG DwNy9Z3xWH7jI3ImfeUlX3wCsnPfQLmLguxcpDQl 4iR1ONYmJc10dQINKL0u1En/dpYJkbOFxzZY9pANT From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jul 26 23:13:55 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:13:55 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010723233902.00a70bf0@wildcard.pokerspot.com> References: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <3B60A433.13725.169FA19@localhost> -- On 24 Jul 2001, at 0:14, Andrew Woods wrote: > If you look at the Reuters image of Carlo holding the fire extinguisher, > he's holding it below head-level. In my opinion, that leaves three options: > Carlo was going to chuck the extinguisher underhand (and sideways to the > vehicle, so it would've bounced off) at a low velocity The rear window had been smashed in when they whacked the cop with the four inch steel pipe, or when they whacked the cop with the two by four timber. so there was no problem with chucking it underhand and sideways. Plenty of room. One is naturally inclined to chuck large heary objects in this fashion, because it is difficult to sling them overhand. In order to sling it in frontwards, he would have had to chuck it in one handed, and it was too heavy for that. In order to chuck it, he needed both hands, and in order to chuck it with both hands, he needed to chuck it sideways. You try chucking a great big fire extinguisher. Unless you are Arnold, you will chuck it in the same fashion. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG TrErF0pXmwrM9VpPj44NvC5XyHEaFb8NY20PqtIO 4NZ8BtIOAhWgajGsJGnMuLUi9Wlme6GjBMRTJfIya From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jul 26 23:35:29 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:35:29 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B60A941.19466.17DB761@localhost> -- On 24 Jul 2001, at 1:20, Petro wrote: > And what is the primary responsibility of a soldier? Well, in > Basic Training I was informed that my basic task was to seek > out the enemy and destroy him. > > Whch is why using Soldiers in peace keeping missions is a > really, really boneheaded move. But not however as bone headed as throwing a fire extinguisher at a soldier, missing, then picking up the fire extinguisher to have another go just after one guy has whacked the soldier with a two by four, and another has whacked him with a four inch steel pipe. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 9WO/DF4M7KEFuERCw12la6FrYdJn2JC2eH8zHWgG 4dgHHLJm6v5oLAnpniC37IYnynq9xpNZvRc4pvJfD From alan at clueserver.org Thu Jul 26 23:39:39 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lasers and ICBMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > A lot of the calculations being sketched out here, of watts/cm^2, > > dwell times, gold coatings, etc. are slightly off-base. We've known > > for 20+ years that the kill method is to use a short pulse to "push" > > (not from the photons' momentum) in the thin wall of an ICBM's fuel > > Explosive ablation sounds like giant pulses, and chemicals lasers (the > only ones known to provide lasing output in the ballpark) don't do these > very well. So either you have to fire synchonously from many platforms, or > have a veritable Death Star out there in LEO. Several of them, in fact, to > maintain an umbrella at all times. Why is this reminding me of some of the activities of local Law enforcement? All of this talk of multiple shots fired, but no mention of what happens to those that miss or continue on past the target after hitting it. I expect that if they ever do test this thing in low earth orbit or any other space bound platform, we may see a few "accidents" that were not counted on. "Oops! Accidently hit that communications satilite. Sorry!" "Oops! Accidently hit that densely populated urban area!" Oops! "Accidently" hit Tim May's house!" alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "All power is derived from the barrel of a gnu." - Mao Tse Stallman From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 20:57:03 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:57:03 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4460B@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Agere-Ron.zip.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "Agere-Ron", was sent from Ron B and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From petro at bounty.org Fri Jul 27 00:29:28 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 00:29:28 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <3B60A941.19466.17DB761@localhost> References: <3B60A941.19466.17DB761@localhost> Message-ID: At 11:35 PM -0700 7/26/01, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- >On 24 Jul 2001, at 1:20, Petro wrote: >> And what is the primary responsibility of a soldier? Well, in >> Basic Training I was informed that my basic task was to seek >> out the enemy and destroy him. >> >> Whch is why using Soldiers in peace keeping missions is a >> really, really boneheaded move. > >But not however as bone headed as throwing a fire extinguisher at a soldier, missing, then picking up the fire extinguisher to have another go just after one guy has whacked the soldier with a two by four, and another has whacked him with a four inch steel pipe. You'll find no disagreement from me on that. From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Fri Jul 27 01:41:54 2001 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 00:41:54 -0800 Subject: Camera fines may top $160M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B60B84E.4510.12A7DEBD@localhost> On 26 Jul 2001, at 14:42, Jim Choate wrote: > http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20010726-98590728.htm > The District expects to collect more than $160 million in traffic > fines by 2004 from automated law-enforcement cameras designed to nab > red-light runners and speeders, according to contracts obtained by The > Washington Times. This appears to be an overly optimistic estimate of revenue whether it is 3 or 4 years. They tried photo radar in Ontario and they had very high estimates of revenue which were never achieved. People slowed down for the photo radar locations as they were typically easy to spot. The Ontario program was cancelled within a short period of time after a change in provincial (state) government. The photo radar program in British Columbia was very recently cancelled as it was not considered a success. It failed to meet its revenue forecasts and the managers of the program demanded a major increase in the number of vans (photo radar units) to enable the program to be a success. The government of the time cancelled the expansion plans. The program had many problems other than enforcing arbitrary speed limits imposed for political reasons. The government which initiated the program promised not to run speed traps, ie - place the units at the bottom of hills or within 200 meters of a speed zone change other than school and playground zones. The biggest issue working against the program was most drivers learned to recognize the vans and were alert to their presence. Another issue was legally serving a ticket on the owner of the offending vehicle. If you are stopped by a police office and issued a ticket you are legally served with the appropriate documentation in the eyes of the law. The BC photo radar program mailed tickets to the offenders. This is not considered being legally served so many people threw the tickets out. Initially a local police office would then serve the ticket to your door but this didn't last long as the volume grew. Process servers were then used which worked in small towns and rural areas as everyone knew each other. In the big cities a process server had very little luck as people learned all they to do was tell the process server the intended recipient was not home. Even if the process server catches you getting into the same vehicle as pictured by the photo radar you state you are not the recipient as you are just using the vehicle. Next the government tried denying driver's license renewal or license tags or insurance if you had outstanding fines. That didn't work either as they can't penalize you for something you are not aware of in a legal sense. The front counter folks would hard line you on this one but all you had to do was ask for a supervisor. > The citations will cost speeders from $30 to $200, with $29 of each > paid ticket going to Lockheed. For red-light violations, Lockheed > receives $32 for each $75 ticket that is paid, with the red-light > camera contract assuming a 75 percent payment rate. What is interesting in this article is the the assumed 75% payment rate. If you break the law and you are fined you would expect an almost 100% payment rate, its a Law & Order issue. If the motivation is revenue generation it would appear a lower payment rate may be acceptable. A personal statement - While photo radar is just an easy way for law enforcement to go throw the motions red-light cameras may be a necessary evil. Within this urban area people running red-lights has gotten totally out of hand. I see people running lights 5 or more seconds after my light turns green, even passing cars stopped in nearby lanes. If you are first in line at a light you must look both ways before proceeding on a green. If red-light cameras are done right and can accurately pin-point the offending vehicle, done with a another photo one second or so after the first, they may what is required to get people to play by the necessary rules. I did read a previous article where it was mentioned the existing cameras, and associated system, were not setup properly and wrongly sent tickets to folks who were not guilty of any traffic violations. Like I mentioned above, it must be done right where there is no doubt on who is guilty and who is not. > D.C. police officials said the units are being rotated at about half > that many sites, but police spokesman Kevin P. Morison said the > 80,000-citations-per-month figure cited in the contract is an accurate > estimate. > > The District issued a total of about 10,000 speeding tickets last > year, according to police traffic coordinator Lt. Patrick Burke. I doubt very much Washington will go from issuing 10,000 traffic citations to 80,000 citations per month. Drivers will get a ticket or two and change their ways, or learn where the photo units are located. If the process rules are as loose as they are in BC people would have no reason to pay other than to eliminate some hassle. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbntech.com FBN - Offering LAST, Large Array of Stale Technology http://www.fbntech.com/product.html From declan at well.com Thu Jul 26 22:56:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:56:56 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com>; from dpj@world.std.com on Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:53:02PM -0400 References: <200107252313.f6PNDTc00814@fbi.crypto.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:53:02PM -0400, David Jablon wrote: > With these great new laws, there is no longer any risk of being legally > criticised for using even the most glaringly flawed cryptography -- just use it > for Copy Protection, and TADA! Negative criticism magically disappears. > Almost by definition. > > Flaws can only be exposed by those who won't show their work, > or from anonymous sources, who nobody will trust without confirmation [...] [...] > We seem to be entering the twilight zone -- the end of an exciting, > but brief era -- of public cryptography. The DMCA may be bad, but it's not *that* bad. It contains a broad prohibition against circumvention ("No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access") and then has a bunch of exceptions. One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of sorts. See below. -Declan PS: Some background on Sklyarov case: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=sklyarov PPS: Note you only get the exemption if you make "a good faith effort to obtain authorization before the circumvention." Gotta love Congress, eh? http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: `(g) ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- `(1) DEFINITIONS- For purposes of this subsection-- `(A) the term `encryption research' means activities necessary to identify and analyze flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption technologies applied to copyrighted works, if these activities are conducted to advance the state of knowledge in the field of encryption technology or to assist in the development of encryption products; and `(B) the term `encryption technology' means the scrambling and descrambling of information using mathematical formulas or algorithms. `(2) PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if-- `(A) the person lawfully obtained the encrypted copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of the published work; `(B) such act is necessary to conduct such encryption research; `(C) the person made a good faith effort to obtain authorization before the circumvention; and `(D) such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including section 1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be considered shall include-- `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development of encryption technology, versus whether it was disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security; `(B) whether the person is engaged in a legitimate course of study, is employed, or is appropriately trained or experienced, in the field of encryption technology; and `(C) whether the person provides the copyright owner of the work to which the technological measure is applied with notice of the findings and documentation of the research, and the time when such notice is provided. `(4) USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to-- `(A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); and `(B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 23:25:32 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:25:32 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44611@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 穡罈T.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 穡罈T", was sent from MYChang and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Thu Jul 26 23:26:03 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:26:03 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44613@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 穡罈T.doc.com infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: 穡罈T", was sent from MYChang and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From T_Finney12 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 27 04:13:41 2001 From: T_Finney12 at hotmail.com (T_Finney12 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 04:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hi again! Message-ID: <200107271113.EAA00137@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From intmarketing2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 27 05:01:00 2001 From: intmarketing2002 at yahoo.com (MCIMarketing) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 05:01:00 Subject: As seen on TV Message-ID: <200107270707.AAA03642@ecotone.toad.com> * Have you ever thought or uttered the words.... > * "If only I could find an easier way to make money" > * Or.... * "If I had more money, I could spend more time with my family, and less time at work" > * Or even... * "I sure could use more money so I could pay off all my bills once and for all" IT WILL HAPPEN WITH THIS * PROGRAM!!!!!!!!!!!! > * Well its possible we haven't actually met before but you did not receive this letter by mistake, I just felt that * everyone in the world deserves to know about, and should be given a chance to get in on this amazing * program. I think every one can spare $25. Please read this letter and you will see what I'm talking about. * Thanks so much... > > Dear Friend, > * When you start to read this letter I want you to read it slowly, sit * down, and then read it again. The first time I read this letter I didn't believe a word it said, the second time it * started to set in just how much money someone can really make with this program. Well, about 5 months * ago I decided to give it a try. My total investment was $110.00. That covered the five, $5 bills I sent as * outlined below, and a bulk e-mailer. From that $110 I have made over $17,000. That may not seem like a * lot of money to some people but it sure helped me out this year. Now you don't have to take my path your * total investment can be $25 and with the reports from those listed below, they will direct you to free ad * sites, the best targeted e-mailers and a lot more. All in all I believe this business is the best one on the * Internet...Please read on.... > > * Success Stories, > > * Hopefully my name is still on the list. I am a retired attorney. * Approximately, two years ago a man came to me with a letter similar to * this one. He asked me to verify the fact that this letter was legal. I told him I would review it and get it back * to him. When I first read the letter a week and a half later, we met in my office to discuss the letter. I told * him that the letter he originally brought me was not 100% legal and I advised him to make a small change in * the letter so it would be. > * I was still curious about the letter, so he proceeded to explain how the letter works. I thought it was a long * shot and decided against * participating. However, before my client left, I asked him to keep me * updated as to his results. About two months later, he called to tell me * he had received over $25,000 in cash. I did not believe him. He suggested that I try his idea and find out for * myself. I thought about it for a couple of days and then I realized I had nothing to lose only some money to * gain. If nothing else I would make my investment back, so I asked him for a copy of the letter. I followed the * instructions exactly, mailed out 100,000 e-mails and sure enough, the money started arriving. It came * slowly at first, but after three weeks I was getting more mail in than I could open in a day. After about 3 * months, the money stopped coming in. I kept a precise record of my earnings and at the end they totaled * $38,495. > > * I was earning a good living as an attorney. However, as anyone in the * legal profession will tell you, there is a lot of stress that comes with the job. I told myself that if things really * started working out, I could retire from my practice and play golf with in a few years. I decided to try the * letter again, but this time I sent out 500,000 e-mails. Well, three months later, my earnings totaled $69,180. I * just couldn't believe it. I met with my old client for lunch to find out why or even how this letter was * working so well. He told me that there are five names on the list instead of six and with this program your * only sending $5 to those five people instead of $10 each. That fact alone resulted in many more returns. * The other part was guaranteeing that the whole program was legal since no one wants to risk * participating in something illegal. > * I'll assume by now you are curious to know what little change I told him to make. Well, if you sent a letter * like this out, to be legal you must actually sell something if you expect to receive a dollar. I told him that * anyone sending a dollar to him must expect to receive something in return. So, when you send a dollar to * each of the 5 people on the list, youmust include a slip of paper with the words, "Please put my name on * your mailing list-this is the key to the program!" > * FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOWEXACTLY, and in less than three months you will receive * over $20,000 or more! > > * Instructions: > * 1. Send $5.00 cash to each of the five names listed below, and remember to include a note requesting * each individual report so the people on the list know which one to send you. > * 2. Then send $5 placed between a sheet of paper to each one. Make sure you give your correct email * address so they can send you the report. Please print it legibly. > * 3. Remove the name in the number five position and move each of the other names and addresses down * one place-number one becomes number two, two becomes three, three becomes four, and four * becomes five. Put your name and address in the first position. > * 4. Start sending out e-mails so you can start receiving orders. This is very simple and if you don't want to * do it yourself, there are several companies on the internet that will send out thousands for you very * inexpensive. > * 5. Finally, save this letter so you can use it over and over again. > * Once again, this letter is not a chain letter, but perfectly legal way to make money. Refer to Title 18 * sections 1302 and 1342 of the United * States Postal and Lottery Laws > * The Names: > > ________________________________________________ * REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" * Order Report #1 from: > * Mark Collins * Apt 3 Garden Grove * 99 South Road * Paget, Bermuda * PG BX > ________________________________________________ * REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" * Order Report # 2 from: > * StephanieFox * 1515 W. Bethel Ave Apt #2 * Muncie, IN 47304 > > _________________________________________________ * REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" > * Order Report # 3 from: > * Charles Nelson * 1952 Chalcedony St. * Pacific Beach, CA 92109 > > ___________________________________ * REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" > * Order Report # 4 from: > * Kristin Butler * 32 McCullough Rd. * Cody, WY 82414 > > ________________________________________________ * REPORT #5: How to Send Out one Million e-mails for Free" * Order Report # 5 from: > * Brandon Bradley * 5433 Cotton Bay Dr. West * Indianapolis, IN 46254 > > > * Last Thoughts * We waste money in lotteries, enter sweepstakes and clip coupons. We need to invest in one another. * Perhaps you are not in need of money. Then do it for someone else! Do it for a friend, a neighbor, college * student, endowment fund, camp, etc. Let's help to fulfill everyone's dreams! > * Just think how much money you can make with this program, instead of just throwing this letter away keep * it, save the $25 up and invest. If everyone gets involved we can all make our financial dreams come to life!! > * When you start receiving orders for Report #5, you will be making money quicker than ever!! > * Many say, "God has given us the knowledge to prosper", but you will only prosper when you use the * knowledge. > * Thank You and Good Luck! > > >_______________________________________________________________________ > >This message is sent in compliance with the new email: SECTON 301. per section 301 * paragraph (a)(2)(c) of S. 1618 > >Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "REMOVE" in the subject line From amaha at vsnl.net Fri Jul 27 04:40:21 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Inspiration) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 06:40:21 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107271140.f6RBeIq16291@ak47.algebra.com> Forget injuries, never forget kindnesses. -- Confucius ======================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Jul 27 05:15:00 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:15:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Brian Minder wrote: > These are likely due to disks filling up at ssz (due to SirCam). Nope. Next wild ass guess... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sklyarev at fbi.net Thu Jul 26 22:48:51 2001 From: sklyarev at fbi.net (sklyarev at fbi.net) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:48:51 +0200 Subject: TELEPOLIS: Genoa: 蓉hese Things Happen Message-ID: <200107270548.HAA09773@octo04.heise.de> Dieser TELEPOLIS Artikel wurde Ihnen von gesandt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymity and authentication in meatspace. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Genoa: 罈These Things Happen竄 John Barker 24.07.2001 Escalation and normalization of police violence You would have to be deaf and blind not to have feared Death in Genoa. In Gothenberg just a few weeks ago, a young man was shot and critically injured with live bullets and, despite the initial shocked disbelief of one or two mainstream media people, it was normalized from the next day onwards. Regrettably these things happen, was the message. In Genoa the death of Carlo Giulliani was for Tony Blair, "tragic but." This 'but' has normalized brutal repression one step further, was one of many green lights shone out for Sunday morning's police attack on the Independent Media Centre where young people 'shook with fear', and everyone else beaten shitless, dragged to armoured hospitals and then hospitalized jails with their injuries, These things happen. As if anyone who talks civil rights was just a boring fanatic or just never reached adulthood. This is the tone for the world set by the way Bush and the Texan Dictatorship seized power on Florida. A fait accompli accomplished, and anyone who argued the point, just the whinger. Dodgy polling machines, blacks not on the register? These things happen. These things happen. You would have to have no knowledge of how the Italian state operates under right wing governments not to have feared Death in Genoa. These guys, the 'secret state' are experts at creating situations in which the innocent get the blame, or end up dead. Fascist bombings at crowded stations presented as the work of the left, handshakes with the mafia, murders, lots of money and infiltration specialisation; original training supplied by the USA. They are experts too, at making what happened become obscure, complicated and dragged out. Scandals are buried in dust before they emerge to be dismissed as something that happened a long time ago. Or as in the case of the present Prime Minister Berlusconi, ones that the judiciary does not have the power to pursue against him. His deputy is a self-proclaimed fascist. Starhawk reports a young protester taken by the police into 'a room covered with pictures of Mussolini and pornography, and alternately slapped around and then stroked with affection." It is co-incidence that it should be Italy's turn to host the G8, as it now is, so soon after the coming to power of Bush and Berlusconi, no doubt the rota had been arranged a long time ago, but they were the guys for the job. For the job? What is this conspiracy theory? What job? The job of scaring people, of saying, see how brutal we can be if we want to. And this scaring of people is strategic, it aims to put off the idealistic, creative young people who have lived largely safe lives in relatively comfortable Europe, from protesting in any immediate way against the monologue of the rich and powerful, of saying anything different. The beatings at the Genoa Social Forum and of the independent media had this aim. A one journalist there for the beatings but relatively unscarred said, 'the Italian state made us realize that all the rules of the game had been thrown out the window', just as Bush has done at a global level from Kyoto onwards. In relatively safe Britain (safe since the systematic beatings of coal miners in 1984), present state tactics with the same aim have involved an unprecedented media campaign to scare people from this year's MayDay demonstration, and the discomfort obtained by surrounding protestors for hours on end and humiliating them with their powerlesness. These tactics will be easier to carry out since a clearer example was shown in Genoa. The job of creating situations, of agent provocateurs, of infiltration. Bring on the Italian state, where fascist bombings become left wing ones, and the leftist terrorist group of the 1970s, the Red Brigades, was more infiltrated than perhaps any similar group anywhere. There is at present a body of anecdotal and photographic evidence that many of the most stupid actions pinned on the Black bloc of anarchists-the trashing of ordinary people's shops and cars, the attacks on other demonstrators ostensibly in the name of super-militancy, were the work of people either of, or in collusion with the police. A possible British Nazi suipporter named Liam 'Doggy' Stevens is quoted as saying the Italian 'brothers' had invited him and that they had a free hand. There are accounts of 'black blocers' coming out of carbinieri vans, of being given crowbars by them, of attacks on real comrades in the Piazza Kennedy. The mainstrean media in its various allotted roles say what they might be expected to say. The New York Daily Post, a Murdoch paper, says Carlo Giulianni deserved to die and only lily-livered European Social Democrats have feebly expressed regret, a full-blooded These Things Happen. In the UK, broadsheet newspapers do not report what happen and there is no fearless investigative journalism into agents provocateurs but instead have a string of commentators who, like St Augustine who wanted to stop sinning but not yet, worry that they are giving the oxygen of publicity to violent rioters, or well-known protesters deploring the violence of their own side. The Black blocers would appear not to be 'mindless' but selective in targets for attack. On the other hand, their essentially vanguardist nature is bound to allow the space for provocations by the provocation experts. It is the evidence on this matter which it now appears, the police were so keen to destroy when the attacked the independent media centre, alarmed by reports from one or two courageous mainstream reporters. As in Gothenberg in the hours immediately after this attack Agence France Presse, Starhawk and even the BBC were able to give accounts of that attack, one that scared people so much because the violence used was 'beyond reason'. For the state at that moment fear brings its own reward, but the fury of the attack was aimed at the information on the whole gamut of police violence held on computer disks and videos. Perhaps the greatest provocation, and the most revealing was the fence itself, the elite getting on with its serious work (and how they suffer in the process as Tony Blair so eloquently puts it) for the good of humanity, not understood by peaceful protestors (stupid), or violent ones (criminals). The flim-flam is immense, the results, in relation to all the initiatives and treaties Bush will not sign, a mouse. And the fence necessary precisely because people are not stupid. The fence and the violence of the carbinieri necessary because people are not stupid, can see that despite the immense social wealth created by technological and other creativities, present global capitalism is more voracious than ever before, must find profits in health care and education; must sell more armaments, enclose more land. More voracious, it must be more violent. And well, these things happen. Or are opposed. Links Artikel-URL: http://www.telepolis.de/english/inhalt/co/9152/1.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 穢 1996-2001 All Rights Reserved. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Verlag Heinz Heise, Hannover From reeza at flex.com Fri Jul 27 11:00:19 2001 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:00:19 -1000 Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010727075751.00e2d100@flex.com> At 02:15 AM 7/27/01, Jim Choate wrote: >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Brian Minder wrote: > >> These are likely due to disks filling up at ssz (due to SirCam). > >Nope. Next wild ass guess... As the reigning authority on ssz, why don't you either give us your wild-assed guess, or get off your ass and fix it. Reese From bob at black.org Fri Jul 27 08:08:13 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:08:13 -0700 Subject: When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? Message-ID: <3B6183DC.ABC87762@black.org> When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 27 08:26:53 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <3B60A433.13725.169FA19@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > >The rear window had been smashed in when they whacked the cop with the four inch steel pipe, or when they whacked the cop with the two by four timber. so there was no problem with chucking it underhand and sideways. Plenty of room. One is naturally inclined to chuck large heary objects in this >fashion, because it is difficult to sling them overhand. In order to sling it in frontwards, he would have had to chuck it in one handed, and it was too heavy for that. In order to chuck it, he needed both hands, and in order to chuck it with both hands, he needed to chuck it sideways. > >You try chucking a great big fire extinguisher. Unless you are Arnold, you will chuck it in the same fashion. I have two brothers. Early in their college career, one of them got drunk, and for the sheer hell of it started bowling overhand. The manager of the lanes at the student union was disinclined to try kicking him out personally, so he called my other brother to come get him out... This was possible because at that time all three of us had a lot of experience chucking large heavy objects (and the arms/shoulders to prove it) because we had been operating a firewood business to pay for tuition. If you can get a grip on a large, heavy object which is long (like a chunk of a log, or a fire extinguisher) You can often throw it further and harder one-handed and underhand than you can two-handed and sideways, because the swing gets the far end going a lot faster and that translates into a lot of power for the throw. You can also throw the sucker overhand, but you have to start by lifting it high in front of you, then swinging it down, turning sideways, bringing it up behind you, and releasing it over your head - as my brother discovered he could do with bowling balls. This guy holding up the fire extinguisher two handed, on the other hand, looks like he was intent on using it for a battering ram -- to push in someone's face with it or something. He didn't have room for the big underhand swing, nor the full-circle followed by overhand release, nor even really for the sideways chuck. One thing that his arms and posture suggest to me is that it's actually lighter than you've been guessing -- if it were heavy I'd expect to see a little more tension. Perhaps it was already discharged, thus only about 5-7 pounds? Bear From honig at sprynet.com Fri Jul 27 08:41:53 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:41:53 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com> <200107252313.f6PNDTc00814@fbi.crypto.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010727084153.00893260@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:56 AM 7/27/01 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >The DMCA may be bad, but it's not *that* bad. It contains a broad >prohibition against circumvention ("No person shall circumvent a >technological measure that effectively controls access") and then has >a bunch of exceptions. I'm getting sick of calling *legal bypass* "circumvention" as if this were a dirty word. If I lose a key to my house it is not illegal to circumvent the lock. If I need to make a backup of licensed data its not illegal to bypass obstacles. "Circumvention", literally "to go around", is not illegal. Only unlicensed copying is. Period. Any prohibition on this is "overbroad" to the point of being dead at birth. (Not picking on Declan. Mostly venting.) >One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my >legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption >research. So who arbitrates who gets to be called a "researcher"?? "We are all special objects." From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 27 08:46:23 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? In-Reply-To: <3B6183DC.ABC87762@black.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: >When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? > A more appropriate question might be "when is the author of sircam going to be prosecuted for the millions or billions of dollars of damage his creation has done, and hopefully convicted?" Oh, I forgot. He works for the FBI, so he's immune... Bear From scott at thefruitcompany.com Fri Jul 27 08:47:35 2001 From: scott at thefruitcompany.com (Scott Webster) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:47:35 -0700 Subject: Question Message-ID: I am getting messages from Sasalisu Guei. They seem to be the same msg. with various alterations that you had received. Do you have any advice? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 468 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 27 05:48:36 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:48:36 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44619@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found MAPA FERIAS .xls.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: MAPA FERIAS ", was sent from T and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Jul 27 09:18:38 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:18:38 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access Message-ID: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> Declan, It's pretty bad. The exemption (2) only applies if the intent is to advance the state of the art in general or in the development of products. The means to negate the exemption look like they're deeply embedded in the code. (2)(A) is certainly easy to meet - woohoo. (2)(B) is not too bad unless someone decides that your intent goes beyond pure research (3)(A) makes it easier to call the intent impure, especially if the dissemination is general rather than confined to the guild (3)(B) is another thin end of the wedge to get a guild system up and running (3)(C) is not too bad unless it is determined that partial disclosure might indicate a non-research intent (4)(A) is redundant (4)(B) looks like it can be used to severely restrict dissemination to anyone not closely associated with the researcher All in all it's pretty shitty because it looks ( to a non-lawyer ) like it defines the exemptions in such a way as to make it easy to prosectute a person who decides to follow their curiosity and distributes widely. What the fuck is a "legitimate course of study?" Whatever congress and your local prosecutor say it is, right? The carpetbaggers are in control. Rapid, broad, anonymous publishing is the only way to fight it. Re: the Starbucks/MS Wallet access points - big surprise. Who here expected the ideal gateway for anonymity to be handed to us on a silver plater? Wilde was right and life is looking very much like a Gibson novel. Mike On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:53:02PM -0400, David Jablon wrote: > With these great new laws, there is no longer any risk of being legally > criticised for using even the most glaringly flawed cryptography -- just use it > for Copy Protection, and TADA! Negative criticism magically disappears. > Almost by definition. > > Flaws can only be exposed by those who won't show their work, > or from anonymous sources, who nobody will trust without confirmation [...] [...] > We seem to be entering the twilight zone -- the end of an exciting, > but brief era -- of public cryptography. The DMCA may be bad, but it's not *that* bad. It contains a broad prohibition against circumvention ("No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access") and then has a bunch of exceptions. One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of sorts. See below. -Declan PS: Some background on Sklyarov case: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=sklyarov PPS: Note you only get the exemption if you make "a good faith effort to obtain authorization before the circumvention." Gotta love Congress, eh? http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: `(g) ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- `(1) DEFINITIONS- For purposes of this subsection-- `(A) the term `encryption research' means activities necessary to identify and analyze flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption technologies applied to copyrighted works, if these activities are conducted to advance the state of knowledge in the field of encryption technology or to assist in the development of encryption products; and `(B) the term `encryption technology' means the scrambling and descrambling of information using mathematical formulas or algorithms. `(2) PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if-- `(A) the person lawfully obtained the encrypted copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of the published work; `(B) such act is necessary to conduct such encryption research; `(C) the person made a good faith effort to obtain authorization before the circumvention; and `(D) such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including section 1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be considered shall include-- `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development of encryption technology, versus whether it was disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security; `(B) whether the person is engaged in a legitimate course of study, is employed, or is appropriately trained or experienced, in the field of encryption technology; and `(C) whether the person provides the copyright owner of the work to which the technological measure is applied with notice of the findings and documentation of the research, and the time when such notice is provided. `(4) USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to-- `(A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); and `(B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 27 06:20:36 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:20:36 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4461D@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found mapa de variaable.doc.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: mapa de variaable", was sent from maritza and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From bob at black.org Fri Jul 27 09:24:12 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:24:12 -0700 Subject: Congressmen tell kids how to find P2P porn Message-ID: <3B6195AC.FF90563E@black.org> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010727/tc/online_pornography_2.html Friday July 27 11:08 AM ET Congressmen Warn About Online Porn By D. IAN HOPPER, AP Technology Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - The same technology that allowed Internet users to swap music can be used by children to locate hard-core pornography, and two congressmen are providing parents with some tips to keep it from happening. The programs, which have become popular since the legally embattled Napster (news - web sites) began its decline and was finally knocked offline, can transfer much more than the music files that Napster was famous for. They can help users share any type of file, including pornographic movies. Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Steve Largent, R-Okla., released a report Friday alerting parents. ``It's not a question of gratuitous violence or bad language or bad taste,'' Waxman said. ``It's an explosion of the most demeaning and dehumanizing exhibitions imaginable, and it can appear on our children's computer screens whether they ask for it or not.'' Waxman and Largent aren't yet calling for legislation, but want parents to be aware of the programs and realize that most Internet filtering software doesn't stop them. Internet filters are designed to block Web pages, but most can't scan movies or block sharing programs. The design of sharing networks like BearShare, Aimster and LimeWire complicates the matter further. Unlike Napster, the individual users contact directly, instead of using a central computer. This is also a headache for copyright holders including the music and movie industries, which can't file suit to close down the network because in many cases no company exists to sue. Since Napster's fall, the upstart decentralized file-sharing networks have flourished. They are some of the most downloaded programs on the Internet, dwarfing Napster's popularity during its heyday. The lawmakers said parents shouldn't rely on the effectiveness of filters and should talk frequently with their children about how they use the computer. Putting the children's computer in a common room may also help, they said. The report, prepared by a House committee, says pornography is both popular and prevalent on the networks, and that children may accidentally stumble upon it when looking for something else. The search term ``porn'' ranks second only to a word for pirated movies on the Gnutella (news - web sites) network, and various other adult terms dominate the Top 30 list. Even if children search for other popular downloads, like typing in the names of pop stars Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera, they can find surprising results. ``When the Special Investigations Division used the popular file-sharing program Aimster to search for videos of Britney Spears, over 70 percent of the results were pornographic files,'' the report states. From ericm at lne.com Fri Jul 27 09:34:23 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:34:23 -0700 Subject: CDR-admin stuff Message-ID: <20010727093422.A16593@slack.lne.com> I've been seeing some duplicate messages from some of the CDRs. I suspect that the massive increase in traffic has caused one or more CDRs to overflow their procmail msgid cache. I have been using formail -D 12800 msgid.cache (cache size = 1280). Should we raise that? Eric From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 27 06:40:31 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:40:31 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44621@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found Projektbeschreibung 30.doc.bat infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: Projektbeschreibung 30", was sent from Galerie Grita Insam and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 27 06:41:16 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:41:16 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44623@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found WCDANXT1.XLS.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: WCDANXT1", was sent from arthurite and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 27 06:41:37 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:41:37 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44625@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found WCDANXT1.XLS.pif infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: WCDANXT1", was sent from arthurite and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Jul 27 06:58:32 2001 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:58:32 -0400 Subject: Antigen found W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44627@bambi.pc.cognex.com> Antigen for Exchange found 穩癡瓊1.xls.lnk infected with W32/Sircam-A (Sophos) virus. The file is currently Removed. The message, "CDR: ?????1", was sent from E. Starostina and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From honig at sprynet.com Fri Jul 27 10:07:07 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:07:07 -0700 Subject: When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? In-Reply-To: References: <3B6183DC.ABC87762@black.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010727100707.007e51e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:46 AM 7/27/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > >>When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? >> > >A more appropriate question might be "when is the author >of sircam going to be prosecuted for the millions or >billions of dollars of damage his creation has done, and >hopefully convicted?" You mean "Microsoft Corp" not "the author", right? :-) You aren't responsible for others' use of your creations. Despite the idiotic recent lawsuits against gun makers, publishers of hit-man books, AOL for helping sell kitty prawn, tobacco manuf, etc. The number of such lawsuits is a symptom of the decline. Besides, the author probably doesn't have the Deep Pockets that motivates these abuses. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 27 08:08:09 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:08:09 -0500 Subject: Anarchism, a real alternative to capitalism and state socialism Message-ID: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/25/163633/383 James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From amaha at vsnl.net Fri Jul 27 08:09:56 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:09:56 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107271509.f6RF9uq03011@ak47.algebra.com> No one knows what he can do till he tries. --Publius Syrus ======================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From 100free at cgispy.com Fri Jul 27 03:11:32 2001 From: 100free at cgispy.com (100free at cgispy.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:11:32 GMT Subject: Remove Message-ID: <200107271011.f6RABWd41082@dw2.danworld.net> ------------------------------- Get Your Own Free Mailing List! http://www.cgispy.com From 100free at cgispy.com Fri Jul 27 03:11:58 2001 From: 100free at cgispy.com (100free at cgispy.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:11:58 GMT Subject: Remove Message-ID: <200107271011.f6RABw942077@dw2.danworld.net> Your Email address was deleted from this list. This list was closed. ------------------------------- Get Your Own Free Mailing List! http://www.cgispy.com From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Jul 27 10:15:06 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:15:06 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3B61A19A.5C75965A@lsil.com> Declan, What are today's options for anonymous publication? A good summary might be instructive. Regards, Mike From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 27 07:18:16 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:18:16 -0400 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers Message-ID: Two points: People interested in finding wireless access points, and tech info about the same, should look at GAWD: http://www.shmoo.com/gawd/ BAWUG: http://www.bawug.org The Starbucks access points will apparently require Microsoft Wallet, and some kind of charge-per-minute software. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Eugene Leitl[SMTP:Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de] > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:37 AM > To: David Honig > Cc: Sampo Syreeni; Ray Dillinger; cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers > > On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > > > Bear has a point; no matter how you spread or hop, you're an emitter. > > Shoot anything that radiates from 50 Mhz-IR. > > Ultrabroadband is currently hard to triangulate, unless you're part of the > network, where TOF mutual triangulation is part of service. > > You could triangulate ultrabroadband with an antenna array, but in real > life the reflexion and multipath will make it difficult. From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Jul 27 10:24:01 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:24:01 -0700 Subject: where's dildo? if he's not white, at Texas Southern University References: Message-ID: <002701c116c0$ee397780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aimee Farr" To: "Ray Dillinger" Cc: Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 10:12 AM Subject: RE: where's dildo? if he's not white, at Texas Southern University > > It's graduations that should be hard, not admissions. > > > > Bear > > 1. But check out TSU's bar exam passage rate. > > 2. That's what they say....but that's not how it works. > > Law schools "teach the test" (the bar exam), most of which is "multiple > choice... Uh. Not the one I took. Blue books and more blue books. Three days of blue books. Not only that but not all schools "teach the test." Most "national" law schools don't teach bar stuff at all. The passage rate for Harvard or University of Chicago is much lower than the Law School at De Paul University, for example. Some schools have an academic program focused on the law in the state you are in. Some don't. From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 27 10:25:42 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:25:42 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 12:30 PM -0400 7/27/01, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Like I said, I'm not defending the DMCA. I was merely correcting >the fellow who didn't know the exemption (of sorts) existed. > Not being an expert on the DCMA, I'm still trying to square the notion of an "exemption for research" (my words, summarizing my understanding of the various clauses) and the fear of the Felten gang that presenting their _research_ paper on the weaknesses in the new Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI) scheme could expose them to prosecution. Felten wasn't building commercial devices for sale, he wasn't marketing a product to enable bypassing the SDMI...he and his group were doing standard cryptographic analysis of an algorithm...the bread and butter of determining the strenghts of ciphers and security methods. I think the threatened suit under the terms of the DCMA goes to the point the original poster made: that the way to stop cryptanalysis of a cipher ("Digital Snake Oil Bass-O-Mattic Encryptator 1.0"), or at least the publication of any results, is to do what was done to Felten. I just don't see how if a Princeton professor is not exempted from the DCMA that a guy in a lab in Sunnyvale would be. And so the chilling effect on research is in fact accomlished. The courts will no doubt have their say, but right now the DCMA sure looks to be a ban on publication of research. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Jul 27 10:31:59 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:31:59 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010727131105.02099ab0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3B61A58F.D5A96728@lsil.com> Un-yikes yourself. Since the mail goes to a list I wasn't necessarily asking you to do the job - I'm interested enough that if tips filter in I'll check them out and package them nicely in an FAQ. That is assuming one does not already exist. Mike Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Yikes, editors pay me a few dollars a word to research and write this kinda > stuff. Why don't you ask for tips and compile them, if you're interested? > > -Declan > > At 10:15 AM 7/27/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > >Declan, > > > >What are today's options for anonymous publication? A good summary might > >be instructive. > > > >Regards, > >Mike From dspitz at voyager.net Fri Jul 27 10:46:44 2001 From: dspitz at voyager.net (dspitz at voyager.net) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:46:44 Subject: remove Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20010727104644.320f2866@pop.voyager.net> From bob at black.org Fri Jul 27 10:48:54 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:48:54 -0700 Subject: ref on DNA databases Message-ID: <3B61A986.81B06ED2@black.org> Estonia, a country of 1.5 million in Northern Europe, launches a project building a national health and DNA database (see Science, Oct. 6 2000, Nature Biotech Nov 2000). This database will bring direct benefits to the Estonian people and to their healthcare. In addition to that, at the global level, it will offer a tremendously valuable tool for datamining to find disease susceptibility markers or disease genes. Above all, these databases could serve as an example of emerging foundations of the future personalized medicine through the use of information and gene technologies in the healthcare. I would like to introduce you the project, the legal, ethical and educational homework that has been done during the past one and a half years. Furthermore, I would like to draw your attention to technological requirements concerning information technology (incl. Databases) and genotyping that still need to addressed to make a full use of that information. http://www-smi.stanford.edu/events/abstracts/abstract_2000111393000563.html From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jul 27 07:50:17 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:50:17 -0400 Subject: Is minder.net really screwed up? Message-ID: Thanks for the explanations. I deliberately picked minder over lne because I don't support filtering by anyone but the final recipient. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Brian Minder[SMTP:bmm at minder.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 2:05 PM > To: Eric Murray > Cc: Trei, Peter; 'cypherpunks at lne.com' > Subject: Re: Is minder.net really screwed up? > > Sircam is indeed the culprit. minder.net usually delivers from 10^5 to > 10^6 messages a day. Since this latest worm the average has risen by > an order of magnitude, though things have slowed down quite a bit in the > last 24 hours. We're working though the backlog. > > As some of the mail I deliver is for paying, privacy oriented customers > I'm obliged not to peek or filter to mitigate the situation as Eric has > done. > > Thanks, > > -Brian > > On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Eric Murray wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 11:47:03AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > When cyberpass started messing up a few weeks ago, > > > I unsubbed there and resubbed at minder.net > > > > > > Several times, I've noticed that messages I sent were > > > replied to long before I ever saw the original message > > > come back. > > > > > > Yesterday I sent a message around 11AM, and just > > > got the original back, over 24 hours later. > [...] From bob at black.org Fri Jul 27 10:52:15 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:52:15 -0700 Subject: not just iceland: more refs on more countries w/ DNA db Message-ID: <3B61AA4F.F9022B98@black.org> http://www.genomics.ee/media/scientprindi.html A good gene pool, like love, is where you find it. Now genomics researchers have two new ones to swoon over: one from Estonia, a crossroads of Scandinavian cultures and the northernmost of the former Soviet Union's Baltic republics; and from Tonga, an island kingdom half a world away where a Polynesian people has lived in near-perfect isolation se to 3,500 years. Tonga and Estonia laid final plans last November and December, respectively, for national gene pool exploration programs aimed at discovering disease-associated genes and developing therapies based on the discoveries. 

They follow the trail blazed by Iceland,1 where for several years the gene pool of 275,000 Icelanders has been the fishing preserve of Reykjavik-based deCODE Genetics which is hunting for gene variants that affect serious, often chronic diseases by finding statistical links between Icelanders' genotypes and their inherited illnesses. The Tongan project will be a commercial affair run by AutoGen Ltd. of Melbourne, Australia, with permission of the Tongan Ministry of Health. Two organizations, one nonprofit, the other for-profit, will control Estonia's project; both are property of the Estonian government. 

Eesti Geenivaramu
Prior to the Estonian parliament's action of December 13, only the nonprofit Eesti Geenikeskus (the Estonian Genome Center Foundation) was in place; now it will be joined by Eesti Geenivaramu (the Estonian Genebank Foundation), the engine of the venture. Eesti Geenivaramu will carry out the project; Eesti Geenikeskus will own the data. 

The project enjoys enormous popular support. A poll indicates 90 percent of 1.4 million Estonians like the idea of a big project with potential benefits to themselves, and that also helps the country's fledgling biotech industry. Individuals may freely access their own data, otherwise strictly secret, and get word if project research yields treatments that might be beneficial. If 1 million Estonians are genotyped within five years, as officials predict, Estonia will own the behemoth of population genotyping projects, the only one with a database sized in terabytes. 

Andres Metspalu

The Estonian Genebank Foundation officially opens in March in the city of Tartu. Kickoff money of 20 million kroons (US$1.3 million) funds a pilot genotyping project scheduled to begin in the fall. But the real money--$100-150 million over five years--will come from payments for nonexclusive licenses for data access and intellectual property rights to drugs and diagnostics resulting from research. Part of the genebank foundation's mission is to sign up international partners, chiefly research institutes and biotech and pharmaceutical companies.

Which diseases the 10,000-patient pilot project will focus on hasn't been decided, but the search for volunteers will take advantage of patient group registries for cancer, Parkinson's disease, osteoporosis, and diabetes. Patients in for checkups will be invited to participate (strictly on a voluntary basis) by filling out extensive health questionnaires and donating 50 ml blood samples for DNA extraction. 

When many genes influence an illness, as in heart disease, cancer, and diabetes, population genotyping is preferable to family studies. Family studies work well when a single gene underlies a disease. They rely on linkage analysis, where researchers find genetic markers matching disease inheritance patterns, and then use the markers to map the chromosomal region containing the gene as the first step toward its isolation. With polygenic diseases, where individual alleles seldom sharply increase the relative risk of disease, correlating genetic markers and inherited predisposition to disease requires genotyping hundreds or thousands of people. When gene hunting becomes a game of sifting through massive amounts of data, the Estonian project "will show strength through numbers," says Andres Metspalu, the driving force of Estonia's gene pool expedition. 

Estonians (average life span: 70 years) see themselves as representative westerners; they suffer the same diseases prevalent elsewhere in the West, in similar proportions. Ensconced by the Baltic Sea for some 5,000 years, they have not been isolated; crisscrossing contacts with neighboring nations have made their gene pool more heterogeneous than Iceland's or Tonga's. "Estonia has been sort of a highway," says Kalev Kask, a Stanford neuroscientist who acts as the project's U.S. representative, "Everybody has come and downloaded their genotype there." 

 deCODE navigates the Icelandic gene pool aided by the country's unprecedented genealogies, recorded meticulously for more than a thousand years, back to days when lineages were set down in blood on scraps of leather. "Though many Estonian genealogies go back to the 1600s, we'll take a more ad hoc approach using them," Metspalu says. De-emphasizing those records is in part because nearly 30 percent of Estonia is Russian speaking, reflecting recent era immigration and family records carrying back only a generation or two. 

Finding genes exerting relatively small effects on diseases means scanning the entire genome. Estonian genotyping will employ single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) assays, where SNP oligonucleotide hybridization probes detect single base sequence differences between DNA molecules. (deCODE genotypes with microsatellites.) There is no lack of SNPs to choose from--Public databases span the genome with hundreds of thousands of SNP sequences. What is lacking is consensus on which ones to use, a matter of economic as well as scientific importance. 

Depending on how completely the chosen SNPs cover the genome, genotyping most of Estonia could conceivably require billions of assays. Even at a penny apiece (Metspalu estimates a SNP assay now costs about 20 cents), that could send the project's cost soaring into hundreds of millions of dollars. So automated, high-speed SNP testing must drastically cut per-assay price, and judicious choices will have to be made about which SNPs to use. These decisions will depend heavily on the preferences and resources of the eventual commercial partners. 
 
 

Greg Collier

Genes in Paradise

A South Pacific archipelago situated just west of where the international dateline cuts across the Tropic of Capricorn, Tonga's only significant immigration occurred when it became the home of the Polynesians who first found it centuries before the appearance of Alexander, Caesar, and Christ. AutoGen's project in Tonga grows out of the diabetes studies it has done there for several years. The primary thrust of its research will be discovery of genes involved in diabetes and obesity, major health concerns among Tonga's 108,000 inhabitants.

AutoGen will establish a research lab at a hospital in Nuku'Alofa, the constitutional monarchy's capital, provide annual research funding to the health ministry, and pay royalties to the government if any drugs are developed as a result of the project. 
 As in Estonia, research participation is purely voluntary. DNA samples will belong to Tonga; AutoGen may use the data to create new therapies. "Initially we'll use traditional genome scans with microsatellites to localize areas of interest, and then use SNP approaches for fine mapping," says Greg Collier, AutoGen's chief scientific officer. The Tongan family structure should make correlating genotypes and phenotypes somewhat easier; in most small Tongan villages inhabitants are blood relatives. 

The project comes just as some researchers have changed their minds about the advantages of studying isolated homogenous gene pools instead of heterogeneous gene pools in America and Europe. A few years ago, it was believed that disease-associated genes would stand out more clearly against the simpler genetic backgrounds of isolated populations such as those of Tonga and Iceland. But standing out depends on the frequency of the allele and how much it raises the relative risk of disease. Recent theoretical and experimental results suggest genes with weak effects on relative risk may be no easier to find in a small isolated population than in a large heterogeneous one. 

This finding may bear on scientific and financial decisions about which gene pools to explore next. Undoubtedly, so will deCODE's demonstration that isolated gene pools yield rich finds. Over the past year, deCODE isolated a gene linked to schizophrenia, mapped genes linked to stroke and late-onset Alzheimer's disease, and pinpointed chromosomal regions containing genes contributing to osteoporosis and peripheral arterial occlusive disease. 

In any event, once a population has been chosen and monetary commitments made, what counts are results--and getting them before anyone else. Pressure to set a breakneck pace is mounting as new competitors join in; for this is not a three-way race. Last year, Newfound Genomics began to study Newfoundland Canadians for genes contributing to psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, and diabetes. Myriad Genetics is at work in Utah, Sardinia, and Quebec. One thing they all know is that finding a gene connected to an important disease can be a tremendous thrill, but little more if it turns out that somebody else found it first.  From gbroiles at well.com Fri Jul 27 11:10:38 2001 From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:10:38 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: References: <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010727105232.03682670@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:25 AM 7/27/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: >I think the threatened suit under the terms of the DCMA goes to the point >the original poster made: that the way to stop cryptanalysis of a cipher >("Digital Snake Oil Bass-O-Mattic Encryptator 1.0"), or at least the >publication of any results, is to do what was done to Felten. To further illustrate this effect, a brief summary of the background for the Felten suit might be of interest: 1. RIAA/SDMI invite people to break their new copy protection 2. Copy protection breaks are identified in peer-reviewed academic paper 3. Attorney who is Sr VP at RIAA and Secretary of SDMI threatens suit against researchers after seeing pre-press copy of paper 4. Paper is withdrawn from conference, not published 5. Researchers sue for declaratory relief that they *can* publish 6. RIAA/SDMI says they weren't going to sue, tries to dismiss researchers' suit due to lack of controversy for court to adjudicate -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids From alan at clueserver.org Fri Jul 27 11:24:46 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Airline passengers, revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > Passenger Processing Using Biometrics To Be Unveiled > > EyeTicket Corporation, the leader in high volume public processing and > access control using biometric identification, will hold a news conference > on Thursday, July 26, to announce a groundbreaking new program to expedite > airline passenger processing. This announcement represents the first > large-scale application of passenger processing relying solely on > biometrics. Details of the evaluation program, being conducted in > cooperation with BAA, British Airways, UK Immigration Service and Virgin > Atlantic Airways, will be unveiled during the news conference. > > Source: Biometric Digest "To offset the ever rising price of fuel, in conformance with the biometric registration act, the airline will be exchanging biometric information with the proper authorities and favored trading partners. To opt out of this program, just poke your eyes out with the tool provided at the desk." alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "All power is derived from the barrel of a gnu." - Mao Tse Stallman From schear at lvcm.com Fri Jul 27 11:25:21 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:25:21 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <3B60A941.19466.17DB761@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010727112113.0459f418@pop3.lvcm.com> >On 24 Jul 2001, at 1:20, Petro wrote: > > And what is the primary responsibility of a soldier? Well, in > > Basic Training I was informed that my basic task was to seek > > out the enemy and destroy him. The primary, perhaps only, effective purpose of a military is to "break things and kill people." I seem to recall a book about the Marine Corp with a Fedex satire motto along the lines of "When it absolutely has to be destroyed overnight!" steve From alan at clueserver.org Fri Jul 27 11:25:35 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: turning off your computer turns away hackers In-Reply-To: <3B60D1A0.E1E799DF@black.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > "turning off your computer turns away hackers" Not if I have an axe. ]:> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "All power is derived from the barrel of a gnu." - Mao Tse Stallman From reinhold at world.std.com Fri Jul 27 08:33:08 2001 From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:33:08 -0400 Subject: Attention CipherSaber Users!! Message-ID: A draft paper by Scott Fluhrer, Itsik Mantin and Adi Shamir was released on July 25, 2001 and announces new attacks on the RC4 cipher that is the basis for CipherSaber-1. Some of these attacks specifically involve the use of an IV with a secret key, the very scheme used in CipherSaber. Prof. Shamir states in an e-mail accompanying the release: "Attached you will find a new paper which describes a truly practical direct attack on WEP's cryptography. It is an extremely powerful attack which can be applied even when WEP's RC4 stream cipher uses a 2048 bit secret key (its maximal size) and 128 bit IV modifiers (as proposed in WEP2). The attacker can be a completely passive eavesdropper (i.e., he does not have to inject packets, monitor responses, or use accomplices) and thus his existence is essentially undetectable. It is a pure known-ciphertext attack (i.e., the attacker need not know or choose their corresponding plaintexts). After scanning several hundred thousand packets, the attacker can completely recover the secret key and thus decrypt all the ciphertexts. The running time of the attack grows linearly instead of exponentially with the key size, and thus it is negligible even for 2048 bit keys." The paper itself, titled "Weaknesses in the Key Scheduling Algorithm of RC4," has been posted at http://www.eyetap.org/~rguerra/toronto2001/rc4_ksaproc.pdf (in PDF format) and at http://www.crypto.com/papers/others/rc4_ksaproc.ps (in Postscript). WEP is an encryption system used with 802.11 wireless Ethernet that employs RC4, but the attack affects CipherSaber as well. Note that "several hundred thousand" separate CipherSaber messages encrypted with the same key would have to be collected for this attack to succeed. None the less, from a cryptographic standpoint, this is too close for comfort. Accordingly I recommend that CipherSaber users switch to CipherSaber-2 with a parameter N=20 or larger. The RC4 state vector will thus be mixed 20 times instead of once. This large a value for N is probably overkill, but until there is time to fully digest the implications of this paper, it is better to err on the safe side. If this is impractical for any reason, I recommend changing keys on a regular basis to limit the amount of traffic encrypted with any one CipherSaber key (even though the IVs differ). If and when a consensus develops on the best way to fix RC4, I will announce a corresponding version of CipherSaber. Visit the CipherSaber page http://ciphersaber.gurus.com periodically for updated information. Arnold Reinhold From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 02:37:21 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:37:21 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010726184357.00881370@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > Bear has a point; no matter how you spread or hop, you're an emitter. > Shoot anything that radiates from 50 Mhz-IR. Ultrabroadband is currently hard to triangulate, unless you're part of the network, where TOF mutual triangulation is part of service. You could triangulate ultrabroadband with an antenna array, but in real life the reflexion and multipath will make it difficult. From schear at lvcm.com Fri Jul 27 11:38:40 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:38:40 -0700 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010726184357.00881370@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010727113410.0447fec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:37 AM 7/27/2001 +0200, Eugene Leitl wrote: >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > > > Bear has a point; no matter how you spread or hop, you're an emitter. > > Shoot anything that radiates from 50 Mhz-IR. > >Ultrabroadband is currently hard to triangulate, unless you're part of the >network, where TOF mutual triangulation is part of service. > >You could triangulate ultrabroadband with an antenna array, but in real >life the reflexion and multipath will make it difficult. In particular see : http://www.aetherwire.com/Aether_Wire/Integrated_CMOS_Ultra-Wideband_Localizers.pdf steve From rohitc_ch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 27 11:51:58 2001 From: rohitc_ch at yahoo.com (chugh rohit) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: remove Message-ID: <20010727185158.61794.qmail@web9604.mail.yahoo.com> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From rohitc_ch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 27 11:52:17 2001 From: rohitc_ch at yahoo.com (chugh rohit) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <20010727185217.88912.qmail@web9607.mail.yahoo.com> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From ichudov at Algebra.COM Fri Jul 27 10:08:56 2001 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:08:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR-admin stuff In-Reply-To: <20010727093422.A16593@slack.lne.com> from "Eric Murray" at Jul 27, 2001 09:34:23 AM Message-ID: <200107271708.f6RH8ub12448@manifold.algebra.com> i had it set to 128000, changed to 1280000 (1 meg). igor Eric Murray wrote: > > > I've been seeing some duplicate messages from some of the CDRs. > > I suspect that the massive increase in traffic has caused > one or more CDRs to overflow their procmail msgid cache. > I have been using formail -D 12800 msgid.cache > (cache size = 1280). Should we raise that? > > Eric > - Igor. From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Jul 27 10:12:47 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:12:47 -0500 Subject: where's dildo? if he's not white, at Texas Southern University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It's graduations that should be hard, not admissions. > > Bear 1. But check out TSU's bar exam passage rate. 2. That's what they say....but that's not how it works. Law schools "teach the test" (the bar exam), most of which is "multiple choice." In many law schools, law professors prepare students for "multiple choice practice." Most were forced to abandon the Socratic method by sheer numbers. I had one 3L trial prof that was a semester in hell. He taught the way law school USED to be taught. When he retired, everybody knew that it was the end of an era. At the end, his class filled the lecture hall to capacity. He didn't know everybody's names. It horrified him. When my father attended law school, the people on either side of him did not make it past the first year. His 3L class filled up the first two rows of that same lecture hall, with an empty chair in-between. Once again, the people on either side of him.... There was no "seating chart." Back then, they looked at you, and they would ask if they wanted you to be a lawyer. The answer was usually no. When you graduated, you went to a firm where you were honed like an axe. I have my father's law school notes and another family member's notes from UT Law c. 1900. When you add my own materials -- you come to a disturbing conclusion. I am always complaining that I don't have a "form" for something. My father will pull up a chair, sigh, and start dictating. ~Aimee From bob at black.org Fri Jul 27 12:16:41 2001 From: bob at black.org (Subcommander Bob) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:16:41 -0700 Subject: On the turning away of hackers Message-ID: <3B61BE19.67B80383@black.org> At 11:25 AM 7/27/01 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote: >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > >> "turning off your computer turns away hackers" > >Not if I have an axe. ]:> Damnit, Alan, if you had prompted Leitl to say that you could have had the retort: "Careful with that axe, Eugene." From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Jul 27 04:20:19 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:20:19 +0100 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? References: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: <3B614E73.D1F40D6B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Steve Thompson wrote: > > Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com): > > I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author of _Corporate > > Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park > > Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted them to visit > > the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' Over here in t he UK there is a company called Railtrack that about 20 million people would be happy to see executed :-) > How strange. It's always individuals working within a corporation who should > be culpable for offences committed as a result of its business practices. There is surely no suggestion that the individuals cease to be liable, just that the whole company is as well? > Will this not have the effect of divorcing personal responsibility further > from the executive and employees of a company? But if the corporation as a whole is killed the shareholders lose their investment. XYZ inc no longer exists, there are no shares, no dividends. Presumably the assets of the company get sold off at public auction like houses with unpaid mortgages, or cars picked up off the street. > Furthermore, might not the `death' of a company in some cases penalise other > companies which depend on the products or services of the `offender' leading > to a reluctance to prosecute the largest and arguably the worst criminals? Most businesses have competitors, who will no doubt be happy to pick up the sales. Along with the assets, sold off cheap. It will penalise the workers, which might be more important to government, because they will have votes and a large company will have many votes, which might be very concentrated. Not much of a problem in a big city, where there are always other jobs, but in a small town or semi-rural area a single employer might be a huge part of the local economy. > At least when the responsible individuals are prosecuted, there is an > opportunity to `clean house' and reform the offending institution, as it > were. Shareholder pressure should do that very effectively. If the managers break the law, you lose your investment. A big boost to corporate ethics. My previous employer's business directly killed about 200 people during the years I worked there. I mean directly, in industrial accidents, I'm not talking about pollution or product liability. But shareholder pressure would have been very effective in helping keep things safe. Ken Brown From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Fri Jul 27 10:21:54 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:21:54 -0500 Subject: The most ridiculous computer application in the world Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/20703.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 09:29:43 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:29:43 -0400 Subject: Privacy rights protected in western Australia Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010727122920.02095290@mail.well.com> Western Australian authorities persecute gun owners ---------- Police in West Australia will force gun owners to bring their weapons and ID to police stations in an effort to track down illegal firearms. There's no word yet on how harassing registered and cooperative gun owners will turn up black market guns. (07/26/01) http://www.thewest.com.au/20010725/news/state/tw-news-state-home-sto17350.html From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 09:30:53 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:30:53 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:18:38AM -0700 References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> Like I said, I'm not defending the DMCA. I was merely correcting the fellow who didn't know the exemption (of sorts) existed. -Declan On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:18:38AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Declan, > > It's pretty bad. > > The exemption (2) only applies if the intent is to advance the state of > the art in general or in the development of products. The means to > negate the exemption look like they're deeply embedded in the code. > > (2)(A) is certainly easy to meet - woohoo. > (2)(B) is not too bad unless someone decides > that your intent goes beyond pure research > (3)(A) makes it easier to call the intent > impure, especially if the dissemination > is general rather than confined to the > guild > (3)(B) is another thin end of the wedge to get > a guild system up and running > (3)(C) is not too bad unless it is determined > that partial disclosure might indicate > a non-research intent > (4)(A) is redundant > (4)(B) looks like it can be used to severely > restrict dissemination to anyone not > closely associated with the researcher > > > All in all it's pretty shitty because it looks ( to a non-lawyer ) like > it defines the exemptions in such a way as to make it easy to prosectute > a person who decides to follow their curiosity and distributes widely. > What the fuck is a "legitimate course of study?" Whatever congress and > your local prosecutor say it is, right? The carpetbaggers are in > control. > > Rapid, broad, anonymous publishing is the only way to fight it. > > Re: the Starbucks/MS Wallet access points - big surprise. Who here > expected the ideal gateway for anonymity to be handed to us on a silver > plater? > > Wilde was right and life is looking very much like a Gibson novel. > > Mike > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:53:02PM -0400, David Jablon wrote: > > With these great new laws, there is no longer any risk of being legally > > criticised for using even the most glaringly flawed cryptography -- just use it > > for Copy Protection, and TADA! Negative criticism magically disappears. > > Almost by definition. > > > > Flaws can only be exposed by those who won't show their work, > > or from anonymous sources, who nobody will trust without confirmation [...] > [...] > > We seem to be entering the twilight zone -- the end of an exciting, > > but brief era -- of public cryptography. > > The DMCA may be bad, but it's not *that* bad. It contains a broad > prohibition against circumvention ("No person shall circumvent a > technological measure that effectively controls access") and then has > a bunch of exceptions. > > One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my > legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption > research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad > enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge > wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of > sorts. See below. > > -Declan > > PS: Some background on Sklyarov case: > http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=sklyarov > > PPS: Note you only get the exemption if you make "a good faith effort > to obtain authorization before the circumvention." Gotta love > Congress, eh? > > > > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: > > `(g) ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- > > `(1) DEFINITIONS- For purposes of this subsection-- > > `(A) the term `encryption research' means activities necessary to > identify and analyze flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption > technologies applied to copyrighted works, if these activities are > conducted to advance the state of knowledge in the field of encryption > technology or to assist in the development of encryption products; and > > `(B) the term `encryption technology' means the scrambling and > descrambling of information using mathematical formulas or algorithms. > > `(2) PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the > provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that > subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as > applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published > work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if-- > > `(A) the person lawfully obtained the encrypted copy, phonorecord, > performance, or display of the published work; > > `(B) such act is necessary to conduct such encryption research; > > `(C) the person made a good faith effort to obtain authorization > before the circumvention; and > > `(D) such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a > violation of applicable law other than this section, including section > 1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the > Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. > > `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person > qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be > considered shall include-- > > `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was > disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner > reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development > of encryption technology, versus whether it was disseminated in a > manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation > of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of > privacy or breach of security; > > `(B) whether the person is engaged in a legitimate course of study, is > employed, or is appropriately trained or experienced, in the field of > encryption technology; and > > `(C) whether the person provides the copyright owner of the work to > which the technological measure is applied with notice of the findings > and documentation of the research, and the time when such notice is > provided. > > `(4) USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- > Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a > violation of that subsection for a person to-- > > `(A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a > technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing > the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); > and > > `(B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or > she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts > of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for > the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good > faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). From bmm at minder.net Fri Jul 27 10:09:12 2001 From: bmm at minder.net (Brian Minder) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDR-admin stuff In-Reply-To: <20010727093422.A16593@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: I've been using 128000 for some time, as this sort of problem has arisen in the past. The overhead looks negligible. Also, it seems like long message-id's sometimes get munged at lne.com just enough to fool formail. Any thoughts? Thanks, -Brian On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Eric Murray wrote: > I've been seeing some duplicate messages from some of the CDRs. > > I suspect that the massive increase in traffic has caused > one or more CDRs to overflow their procmail msgid cache. > I have been using formail -D 12800 msgid.cache > (cache size = 1280). Should we raise that? > > Eric From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 10:12:22 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:12:22 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3B61A19A.5C75965A@lsil.com> References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010727131105.02099ab0@mail.well.com> Yikes, editors pay me a few dollars a word to research and write this kinda stuff. Why don't you ask for tips and compile them, if you're interested? -Declan At 10:15 AM 7/27/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >Declan, > >What are today's options for anonymous publication? A good summary might >be instructive. > >Regards, >Mike From georgemw at speakeasy.net Fri Jul 27 13:18:38 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:18:38 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <20010727140918.A22946@cluebot.com> References: ; from tcmay@got.net on Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:25:42AM -0700 Message-ID: <3B616A2E.16692.6735636E@localhost> > `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person > qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be > considered shall include-- > `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was > disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner > reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development > of encryption technology, versus whether it was whether it was > disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this > title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, > including a violation of privacy or breach of security; > > -Declan > > I've been rereading this a bunch of times trying to figure out what, if anything, it's supposed to mean. I've come up with two slightly different interpretations: 1) If you release your results at a university-sponsored conference you're an exempt researcher, but if you release identical results at Defcon you're a criminal. 2) Anyone with the financial resources or legal background to get this law overturned on Constitutional grounds is not to be prosecuted in the first place. I think 2 is actually the more accurate reading. George From aimee.farr at pobox.com Fri Jul 27 11:20:22 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:20:22 -0500 Subject: where's dildo? if he's not white, at Texas Southern University In-Reply-To: <002701c116c0$ee397780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: > > > It's graduations that should be hard, not admissions. > > > > > > Bear > > > > 1. But check out TSU's bar exam passage rate. > > > > 2. That's what they say....but that's not how it works. > > > > Law schools "teach the test" (the bar exam), most of which is "multiple > > choice... > > Uh. Not the one I took. Blue books and more blue books. Three > days of blue > books. Yes, I had three days of blue book doodling. I did not know they had changed 4+ essay subjects. I was somewhat startled. If anybody does attend law school, the bar review course is worth taking, because of important tips like that. > Not only that but not all schools "teach the test." Most "national" law > schools don't teach bar stuff at all. The passage rate for Harvard or > University of Chicago is much lower than the Law School at De > Paul University, > for example. Some schools have an academic program focused on > the law in the > state you are in. Some don't. True. Obviously, I was just whining. I won't do it again. ~Aimee From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 10:28:27 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:28:27 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3B61A58F.D5A96728@lsil.com> References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010727131105.02099ab0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010727132614.02004820@mail.well.com> If you say "Declan, what is the answer to this question?" it is reasonable to conclude you're asking me. I'm happy to participate in debate, but if you want me to perform research, evaluate performance, and compile results, that's closer to real work. TANSTAAFL. -Declan At 10:31 AM 7/27/01 -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >Un-yikes yourself. Since the mail goes to a list I wasn't necessarily >asking you to do the job - I'm interested enough that if tips filter in >I'll check them out and package them nicely in an FAQ. That is assuming >one does not already exist. From stevet at sendon.net Fri Jul 27 06:31:21 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:31:21 +0000 Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? References: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> <3B614E73.D1F40D6B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200107271442.KAA29544@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Ken Brown (k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk): > > Steve Thompson wrote: > > > > Quoting Aimee Farr (aimee.farr at pobox.com): > > > I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author of _Corporate > > > Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park > > > Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted them to visit > > > the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' > > Over here in t he UK there is a company called Railtrack that about 20 > million people would be happy to see executed :-) Heh. > > How strange. It's always individuals working within a corporation who should > > be culpable for offences committed as a result of its business practices. > > There is surely no suggestion that the individuals cease to be liable, > just that the whole company is as well? It doesn't seem reasonable to legitimise the legal fiction of "corporation as person" at all. A corporation is really nothing more than the aggregate of its employees skills and assets (which are already considered to be `owned' by the corporation as opposed to its principals.) > > Will this not have the effect of divorcing personal responsibility further > > from the executive and employees of a company? > > But if the corporation as a whole is killed the shareholders lose their > investment. XYZ inc no longer exists, there are no shares, no dividends. > Presumably the assets of the company get sold off at public auction like > houses with unpaid mortgages, or cars picked up off the street. Which _could_ incentivize the shareholders to pressure the board of directors to ensure the corporations actions don't result in a loss. However, individuals working within a corporation will know that if they cause the corporation to commit an offence, their personal risk will be less for the reason that the `corporation' can take the fall for them. > > Furthermore, might not the `death' of a company in some cases penalise other > > companies which depend on the products or services of the `offender' leading > > to a reluctance to prosecute the largest and arguably the worst criminals? > > Most businesses have competitors, who will no doubt be happy to pick up > the sales. Along with the assets, sold off cheap. Which incentivizes a new type of piracy. Install provocateurs in the employ of a competitor, have them `set-up' the company for a fall. The law then convicts and breaks up the company. End result: you no longer have a competitor and the true offenders get off with minimal punishment and collect large deposits in their off-shore accounts. > It will penalise the workers, which might be more important to Who gives a shit about the workers? Certainly not the governement, and the major shareholders won't either. > government, because they will have votes and a large company will have > many votes, which might be very concentrated. Not much of a problem in a > big city, where there are always other jobs, but in a small town or > semi-rural area a single employer might be a huge part of the local > economy. Which justifies what? Besides, the power of, say, the UAW will ensure that Ford or GM will never be held culpable for any major offenses. Same thing goes with Oil companies, Union Carbides, and the rest. > > At least when the responsible individuals are prosecuted, there is an > > opportunity to `clean house' and reform the offending institution, as it > > were. > > Shareholder pressure should do that very effectively. If the managers > break the law, you lose your investment. A big boost to corporate > ethics. I doubt it. > My previous employer's business directly killed about 200 people during > the years I worked there. I mean directly, in industrial accidents, I'm > not talking about pollution or product liability. But shareholder > pressure would have been very effective in helping keep things safe. For those responsible for ensuring workplace safety? > Ken Brown Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From sobel at epic.org Fri Jul 27 10:31:25 2001 From: sobel at epic.org (David Sobel) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:31:25 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ============================================================== [Electronic Privacy Information Center] July 26, 2001 Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman Sen. Orrin G. Hatch, Ranking Member Senate Judiciary Committee United States Senate 224 Dirksen Office Building Washington, DC 20510 Re: Nomination of Robert S. Mueller Dear Chairman Leahy, Senator Hatch and Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee: As the Committee prepares to consider the nomination of Robert S. Mueller to be Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), we are writing to urge the Committee to include privacy protection and compliance with the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) in its inquiry. As we set forth below, these issues include FBI use of new surveillance and investigative technologies, including the Carnivore system; FBI access to personal information contained in private sector databases; and full and timely compliance with the disclosure requirements of the FOIA. New Technologies Given the increased public concern over the use of new and potentially invasive technologies by law enforcement agencies, it would be appropriate to solicit Mr. Mueller's views on this issue. While the FBI's use of the Carnivore Internet surveillance system properly has been the subject of much public discussion, other technologies increasingly are being employed by the FBI and the law enforcement community. These include video surveillance systems, sophisticated imaging devices and a wide range of biometric applications such as facial recognition and retinal scans. As the Supreme Court recently recognized in Kyllo v. United States, 533 U.S. ____ (2001), "[i]t would be foolish to contend that the degree of privacy secured to citizens by the Fourth Amendment has been entirely unaffected by the advance of technology." When law enforcement employs invasive technology that is not in "general public use," it must do so in a manner that "assures preservation of that degree of privacy against government that existed when the Fourth Amendment was adopted." In light of the Kyllo decision, we believe it is imperative that Mr. Mueller address this issue, which he will clearly confront as Director of the FBI. With respect to the Carnivore system (now designated within the Bureau as DCS 1000), many questions remain unanswered since the FBI's use of the system came to light over a year ago. Through our pending FOIA litigation concerning Carnivore, it appears that neither the FBI nor the Justice Department conducted an analysis of the legality or constitutionality of the surveillance technique prior to its deployment. Despite the fact that the independent technical review team retained by the Justice Department recommended modifications to Carnivore last December, those changes have not yet been implemented. In addition to the recommendations of the technical review team, EPIC and other privacy groups have urged Attorney General Ashcroft to cure Carnivore's fundamental constitutional defect by placing the system in the control of the relevant Internet service provider rather than the FBI. While the Attorney General recently announced that a new review of Carnivore is now underway, we believe that Mr. Mueller's views on this matter should be explored. Access to Private Sector Databases One of the most troubling law enforcement developments to arise in recent years is the increased reliance of investigative agencies on personal information contained in databases compiled by the private sector. Through their access to these systems, the FBI and other agencies routinely obtain a vast range of personal data, the direct collection of which would appear to be prohibited by the Privacy Act of 1974. As the Wall Street Journal reported earlier this year, private data vendors "specialize in doing what the law discourages the government from doing on its own -- culling, sorting and packaging data on individuals from scores of sources, including credit bureaus, marketers and regulatory agencies." (See attached article). One such company, ChoicePoint, Inc., has a particularly close relationship with the FBI. The company maintains a specialized website, "ChoicePoint Online for the FBI" (www.cpfbi.com), to process data queries from the Bureau. Last year, the Justice Department's contract with the company reportedly grew to $8 million. We urge the Committee to seek Mr. Mueller's opinions on the propriety of such arrangements. FOIA Compliance As frequent users of the Freedom of Information Act, we have a particular interest in Mr. Mueller's familiarity with and commitment to the Act's disclosure requirements. The FBI's problems with FOIA compliance are legendary, and it is not at all uncommon for information requests to languish at the Bureau for many years. The FBI's resistance to public disclosure and oversight appears to be deeply ingrained. Norman J. Rabkin of the General Accounting Office recently testified before this Committee concerning the GAO's experience with the Bureau. While over time we have experienced access-to-records problems at different federal agencies, our experience at the FBI is by far our most contentious among law enforcement agencies. The FBI's reluctance to consistently honor our statutory rights of access has forced us to expend significant energy and resources. The FBI has also limited our ability to respond to our clients -- congressional committees and individual Members of Congress -- in a timely and efficient way. Prepared Statement of Norman J. Rabkin, General Accounting Office, Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, June 20, 2001. When the GAO has such problems, the Committee can well imagine the difficulty that average citizens, journalists and public interest organizations encounter when attempting to utilize FOIA's access provisions to learn about FBI activities. As Director of the Bureau, Mr. Mueller would be uniquely situated to remedy this chronic deficiency. We strongly urge the Committee to elicit a commitment from Mr. Mueller to address this issue quickly and decisively. We appreciate your consideration of the foregoing suggestions and would be pleased to assist the Committee in its ongoing oversight of the FBI. Sincerely, Marc Rotenberg David L. Sobel Executive Director General Counsel Enclosure: "If the FBI Hopes to Get the Goods on You, It May Ask ChoicePoint," Wall Street Journal, pg. 1, April 13, 2001. cc: Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From decoy at iki.fi Fri Jul 27 03:48:48 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:48:48 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Possible Internet Split (plan D) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Characteristics of a "chaos web" include mobile content -- an idea >already espoused by mojo nation and freenet -- but that means you >can't hook up the database servers on the other end of your website >and monitor where the people go, so mainstream businesses will probably >not use a chaos web. ultimately though, it comes down to some kind of >alternate infrastructure. That won't happen, of course. Far too few care enough to pay for it. What you'd probably want is a VPN sorta configuration layered on top of the existing Net, with some killer application the normal network infrastructure cannot support. I.e. you need to carve out your own space much in the way Big Business intends to. Some of the stuff the IETF routing people are coming up with might be useful. I'm thinking Cisco's MPLS (for VPN sorta configurations and QoS guarantees), what the manet WG is doing (for decentralized routing infra), and broadcast/multicast routing (for replication and anonymity). Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From decoy at iki.fi Fri Jul 27 03:48:48 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:48:48 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Possible Internet Split (plan D) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Characteristics of a "chaos web" include mobile content -- an idea >already espoused by mojo nation and freenet -- but that means you >can't hook up the database servers on the other end of your website >and monitor where the people go, so mainstream businesses will probably >not use a chaos web. ultimately though, it comes down to some kind of >alternate infrastructure. That won't happen, of course. Far too few care enough to pay for it. What you'd probably want is a VPN sorta configuration layered on top of the existing Net, with some killer application the normal network infrastructure cannot support. I.e. you need to carve out your own space much in the way Big Business intends to. Some of the stuff the IETF routing people are coming up with might be useful. I'm thinking Cisco's MPLS (for VPN sorta configurations and QoS guarantees), what the manet WG is doing (for decentralized routing infra), and broadcast/multicast routing (for replication and anonymity). Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Jul 27 05:48:55 2001 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:48:55 +0100 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: <00a901c113e0$fbcc0b20$03d36b3f@pacer.com> <20010723233944.A16719@cluebot.com> <003f01c113f8$8e056560$03d36b3f@pacer.com> Message-ID: <3B616337.6C24A4C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Over here in Europe, the Carabinieri are still big news. People aren't so much focussing on the dead man (maybe because it does look like self-defence) but on what the apparent revenge taken by the police and/or carabinieri on others after the main business was over. The IMC is getting the most attention. There are supposed eye-witness reports from people associated with various Christian and Green organisations, who claim they were no-where near the violence, in fact avoided the streets because of the violence, yet were picked on by the cops afterwards. BBC account: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1459000/1459466.stm There has been a radio interview, broadcast a number of times, with a man who claims that the cops lined up to take kicks at him as he lay on the floor. Very effective, as he breaks down and cries part way through as he says he was convinced he was going to die. Says he blacked out, and woke up again, only to be kicked in the head again. Is still in hospital with a punctured lung amongst other things. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1458000/1458347.stm) These guys are not young thugs out for a fight, most of them are thirties, some older, and they are mostly well-educated people with jobs. In other words they probably have friends who are lawyers and journalists (well, some of them are journalists themselves). So they probably know how to make a fuss that their own governments will notice. Whether or not the Italian government will pay any attention is another matter (Although the city government in Genova itself seems to now be objecting to what went on). There are also rumours (maybe no more than that - http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalisation/story/0,7369,528210,00.html)) about collaboration between police, right-wing organisations, and the Italian government. If you believe all this then there seems to have been an element of Italian military who took the opportunity to put the frighteners on just about anyone they didn't like - Greens, pacifists, trade unions, socialists, whatever. Berlusconi is a famously dubious piece of work - friends with fascists (real ones, not just the ordinary authoritarian conservatives that lefties like me love to call "fascists" as an insult); and he has an egregious monopoly on Italian broadcasting. How independent are "private" TV stations and newspapers when the guy who runs them is also the man in charge of the government? Big government (and big business, which is always in bed with big government and often has more in common with big government than it does with small business) need protests to keep them awake. Without protest they become managerial, think they can make decisions for everyone else and just get away with it. At best they like to "consult", in other words, they call a meeting, send some minor bureaucrats to take minutes, let the people say what they want, then do what they were going to do anyway. The protest, the demonstration, if necessary the riot, is the other side of the democratic coin. If the people just take orders, then the government will carry on just giving orders. Of course in Italy nowadays big government and big business are the same people. Ken While we're at it, http://www.lanterna.provincia.genova.it/eng/realizzazione/index.htm is a webcam on a lighthouse at the entrance to the harbour at Genova, just in case you fancy some Mediterranean sunshine :-) From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 10:53:21 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:53:21 -0400 Subject: FC: Senate should ask FBI nominee Mueller about privacy, EPIC says Message-ID: Robert Mueller, FBI director-designate, will be before the Senate Judiciary committee on Monday. EPIC's letter is a worthy effort to raise the topic of privacy, and will (I hope) get Mueller's views in the public record. EPIC's Marc Rotenberg correctly says that as the first FBI director of the 21st century, Mueller will have access to more sophisticated surveillance technologies than his predecessors. (Carnivore may get the most attention, but I'm more concerned about automated face recognition systems, and I hope that comes up on Monday.) Background on Robert Mueller, FBI director-designate: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02233.html Senate hearing notice: http://judiciary.senate.gov/hr073001f.htm Politech archive on Carnivore: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=carnivore Politech archive on Kyllo decision: http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=kyllo -Declan ********* From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 10:58:35 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:58:35 -0400 Subject: Senate should ask FBI nominee Mueller about privacy, EPIC says Message-ID: <20010727135833.A22387@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Fri Jul 27 11:09:18 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:09:18 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:25:42AM -0700 References: <3B61945E.83878D44@lsil.com> <20010727123053.A20100@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010727140918.A22946@cluebot.com> On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:25:42AM -0700, Tim May wrote: > The courts will no doubt have their say, but right now the DCMA sure > looks to be a ban on publication of research. Yeah. Felten could have gone forward and almost certainly not been sued, but his co-authors were far more skittish. The DMCA inclues another exemption for reverse engineering, but let's go back to the research one, which really does seem to limit publication: `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be considered shall include-- `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development of encryption technology, versus whether it was whether it was disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security; -Declan From smb at research.att.com Fri Jul 27 11:13:40 2001 From: smb at research.att.com (Steven M. Bellovin) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:13:40 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism Message-ID: <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> In message <20010727015656.A22910 at cluebot.com>, Declan McCullagh writes: > >One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my >legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption >research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad >enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge >wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of >sorts. See below. It's certainly not broad enough -- it protects "encryption" research, and the definition of "encryption" in the law is meant to cover just that, not "cryptography". And the good-faith effort to get permission is really an invitation to harrassment, since you don't have to actually get permission, merely seek it. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb From bear at sonic.net Fri Jul 27 14:16:31 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3B616A2E.16692.6735636E@localhost> Message-ID: >> `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person >> qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be >> considered shall include-- >> `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was >> disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner >> reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development >> of encryption technology, versus whether it was whether it was >> disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this >> title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, >> including a violation of privacy or breach of security; My reading of these paragraphs is that basically, you don't start out by releasing a program that script kiddies can download and use to break stuff. You can present your paper at defcon, as long as there's not an executable. You can create an executable, with source code, package it up and send it to the copyright owner with a note that says "your protection is broken: here's the proof." You can shout at the top of your lungs that their crypto is broken, on all kinds of forums. You can engage in your right to fair use using your own executable, ie, taking a five-second clip and using it in an original work where it's seen in the background as your protagonists stroll by arguing about the new sushi restaurant. But what it looks like is, you cannot publish that executable, nor make it possible for anybody else to engage in their right to fair use. Something may appear in an anonymous channel, and if it's not traceable to you -- or downloadable from your website, etc -- then they may sue you for having done the research that made it possible, but they will lose. Of course, there is life outside the USA, and I'm sure some kid in Italy or Finland or Russia will cheerfully read your paper and implement the thing you describe and release it. But that kid better not visit the USA anytime real soon unless that kid publishes anonymously. I think a lot of the flaws with the DMCA could be fixed by allowing an exemption for a "notice period" -- one year after you notify them that their crypto is broken, they've had enough time to fix it -- and if they haven't fixed it, they deserve what they get. Bear From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com Fri Jul 27 14:38:05 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:38:05 -0700 Subject: StockUpTicks Newsletter Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue 9 -July 27, 2001 [Image] [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] *** BREAKING NEWS *** ***BREAKING[Image] NEWS*** [Image] In response to investors requesting that more of our coverage come after the market closes, we are providing this Breaking News, which gives our members maximum time to review this company and respond. StockUpTicks endeavors to bring you information about under-followed companies that may be of particular interest to investors in "discovery" and emerging growth stocks. Touchstone Resources Ltd. (TUT.V) based in Houston, Texas, is an aggressive oil and gas exploration company targeting high-potential assets through a focused strategy of utilizing industry relationships, world class contract consultants and the most modern industry technologies. [Image] Touchstone announced today that an open-hole drill-stem test in the Devonian formation in Winkler County, Texas by Schlumberger produced a calculated rate of 2,400 barrels a day on Touchstone's Wink project field. "This is a significant, high-impact discovery," said EVP Wes Franklin. During the weekend ahead, Touchstone will further evaluate production output by open-hole testing in the Devonian. Investors should bookmark the stock and watch for news early this week on the test results. [Image] *** BREAKING NEWS *** ***BREAKING[Image] NEWS*** Editor's note: This release was issued after market meaning that no one, as yet, has been able to react. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 27, 2001 WINK PROSPECT DEVONIAN PRODUCTION TESTING Touchstone Resources USA, Inc. is pleased to announce that the Wink prospect, Morton/Halley 23/24#1, which is located in Winkler County, Texas, is currently being evaluated by open-hole testing in the Devonian formation at approximately 14,000 feet. The Morton/Halley 23/24#1 was drilled to a total depth of 17,636 feet. After evaluating the deeper Ellenburger formation, the Company has commenced a plug-back operation to the Devonian. The Devonian was open-hole drilled drill-stem tested by Schlumberger at a calculated rate of 2,400 barrels of oil per a day (BOPD). A production facility has already been installed at this location and production is scheduled to start on August 1, 2001. Wes Franklin, Executive Vice President for Touchstone Resources, states The Company is very excited with this discovery in the Devonian. This is a very significant high impact discovery, which enhances the real value of our development in the Wink prospect. The size of this discovery could be quite large by todays on-shore U.S. standards. We anticipate continued success in other wells in this region. Mr. Franklin further states, The Morton 23 #3 is drilling over 10,000 feet on its way to a proposed total depth of 15,000 feet. The well is a Devonian delineation/development well down-dipped from the Morton/Halley 23/24 #1 and will provide an indication of the size of the Devonian reservoir. The Company is also pleased to announce that an additional field discovery has been made at the Wink project. The Morton 11 #2 was deepened to 11,000 feet and is currently testing the Devonian chert at approximately 10,700 feet. Mr. Franklin added, the Devonian here is in a separate fault block 2 miles north of the Morton/Halley 23/24 #1, which is testing the same formation 3,000 feet deeper. The Morton 11 #2 well has tested at a daily rate of 1.2 million cubic feet of gas per day (MMCFGPD) and 4 BOPD. Following bottom hole pressure testing, the well will be placed on production immediately. The Canadian Venture Exchange has not reviewed and does not accept responsibility for the adequacy or accuracy of this release. SOURCE: Touchstone Resources USA, Inc. [Image]CONTACT INFORMATION & LINKS [Image] Touchstone Resources USA, Inc. David Daniels 5858 Westheimer, Suite 708 Houston, Texas 77057 Telephone: (713) 784-1113 Facsimile:(713) 785-8530 Toll Free: (877) 829-0357 E-mail: ddaniels at touchstonetexas.com Website: www.touchstonetexas.com Click TUT.V here for stock quote. Click here to view latest news. [Image]About The Canadian Venture Exchange [Image] The performance of the Canadian Venture Exchange (CDNX) can best be measured by comparing it with the U.S. Nasdaq Composite 100. The CDNX began with its indices value set at 2000 on November 11, 1999. The main index closed trading on June 1, 2001 at 3,251. That's a 62% increase. In comparison, during the same time period the Nasdaq Composite suffered a 38% decline, from 3,421 on November 11, 1999 to close at 2,149 on June 1, 2001. [Image]Disclaimer and Safe Harbor Statement: [Image] Safe Harbor Statement: Statements contained in this document, including those pertaining to acquisitions, earnings estimates and related commercial plans other than statements of historical fact, are forward-looking statements subject to a number of uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from statements made. Disclaimer: StockUpTicks.com is a property of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information, opinions and analysis contained herein are based on sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. MP has been compensated by Godwin Financial (a shareholder) 15,000 shares of stock to prepare and disseminate this report. This compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to MPs ability to remain objective in its communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP is not an investment advisor and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. Information contained herein contains forward-looking statements and is subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which will affect the results. The opinions contained herein reflect our current judgment and are subject to change without notice. MP and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated. [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] 穢 Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-163101P at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13837 bytes Desc: not available URL: From root at david15.dallas.nationwide.net Fri Jul 27 12:43:00 2001 From: root at david15.dallas.nationwide.net (drs) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:43:00 -0500 Subject: Choate Prime Physics Message-ID: <200107271943.OAA24326@david15.dallas.nationwide.net> >> 12:39 AM 7/25/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: IAAP, so let me make a suggestion. Don't argue about physics. The winner comes down to the person or persons least wrong since every description given so far is an attempt to extend some part of an incomplete picture in a way that is _WRONG_, leading to arguments about misstatements. > > > You're gibbering about things you have no clue about. Babbling about > > "the intermediate vector boson" when you clearly don't even > > understand high school physics is especially bizarre. > > > > Photons are _quanta_, as in quantum theory. Their energy is given by > > the usual E = hv (v is nu, frequency). They aren't "less energetic" > > when they scatter (i.e., are reflected). A photon fired at a surface > > will scatter/reflect with precisely the energy it had when it hit the > > surface, unless it is absorbed (in which case it knocks electrons out > > of atoms...the photoelectric effect in a vacuum, thermalized in > > ordinary solids). Scattering is not reflection. In fact, photons do lose energy scattering and the first experiments that demonstrated this is where scattering gets its name: Compton scattering. The compton scattering formula is easily derived from conservation of 4-momentum. Reflection from a mirror is easily described by maxwell's equations, but is more difficult in terms of photons. While the description of the photoelectric effect is more or less ok, the term "thermalize" means applies to contimuum scattering of electrons in the conduction band through collisions with other electrons, not to discrete transitions. Describing a reflection as scattering can be done, but not in the length of this response. > > > > > >Here is what actually happens. It's called "The Radiated Electric Field". > > > >Some 1st year engineering physics books will have it listed in the index > >under 'mirror'. Let me suggest that everyone defer to "Classical Electrodynamics" by Jackson, as a definitive reference. It's the canonical physics text on the subject and is practically universal as the text for a first year graduate course in any physics program. If you know anyone that's a physicist, they should have a copy. > >The incident photons strike the mirror. > > > >A current is induced. This mixes terminology in a bad way. First of all, any _SINGLE_ photon scattering from a surface will be scattered in an arbitrary direction with the appropriate change in energy. A _reflection_ is the collective behaviour of photons with particular energies that particular interact with the conduction electrons in a way which is easy to describe with maxwell's equatiions, but not very easy to describe photon by photon, since from a miscroscopic view, reflection is a statisitical phenomena. For example, gold which is fairly thin, will be transparent in the UV, not reflective. > > >That current is electrons moving in a resistor. Making heat, losing > >energy. Note, we are NOT talking about photons here but J/C. The energy radiated from a resistor is no different than the energy radiated from a blackbody, except perhaps in how ideal it is. > >That current re-emits photons Currents don't emit photons. Accelerated charges do. > >that retain both frequency and temporal/time If free charges behaved this way (i.e., had memories of what changed their momenta), it would violate both relativity and quantum mechanics. A charge is at rest in its own rest frame before the absorption and after the absorption. How would it retain any knowledge of its previous state without (hint) communicating with neighboring charges? > >related coherence (see Maxwell's Equations for more detail). However, the Maxwell's equations do not describe photons. > >total number of photons MUST be reduced from the incident beam. This also The number of photons is irrelavent, since you cannot count them by virtue of the uncertainty principle between the number of photons and the phases. The ones you count are the properly symmetrized linear combination that produces the signal in the detector and that is always equivalent to a single photon. So the above statement is meaningless. > >means the incident photons can not be the same as the emitted photons. They are identical. Or not. Depends on how you write the wavefunctions in any of an infinite number of equivalent ways. See bose-einstein statistics. > >The photons (as opposed to 'a photon') lose energy. >The photons don't lose energy: the beam or flux is diminished in >intensity. Your improper choice of terms is what's getting creating the >misunderstandings. This is closer to correct, but still doesn't contain the idea that it's meaningless to talk in terms of photon numbers except in a very specific context where one recognizes the limitations and applicability of the picture. -- drs From QuTi0 at aol.com Fri Jul 27 12:01:57 2001 From: QuTi0 at aol.com (QuTi0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:01:57 EDT Subject: remove Message-ID: <94.17723cb4.289314a5@aol.com> From jim_windle at eudoramail.com Fri Jul 27 12:04:03 2001 From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:04:03 -0400 Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers Message-ID: In addition people looking for AP maps and technical info can also try: http://www.personaltelco.net By agreement among some of the local groups around the country this site is supposed to act as a clearing house for the different groups. It has a fairly good section with AP maps for different areas. http://nocat.net This is the Sonoma County group. I beleive some of the people involved work at O'Reilly so they have emphasized writing technical papers many of which are posted on the site, including the amazingly wonderful Pringles Potato Chip can antenna (be sure to throw the chips outs, don't eat them they taste like cardboard). Jim Windle -- On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:18:16 Trei, Peter wrote: > >Two points: > >People interested in finding wireless access points, and >tech info about the same, should look at > >GAWD: http://www.shmoo.com/gawd/ >BAWUG: http://www.bawug.org > >The Starbucks access points will apparently require Microsoft >Wallet, and some kind of charge-per-minute software. > >Peter Trei > > > >> ---------- >> From: Eugene Leitl[SMTP:Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de] >> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:37 AM >> To: David Honig >> Cc: Sampo Syreeni; Ray Dillinger; cypherpunks at lne.com >> Subject: Re: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers >> >> On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: >> >> > Bear has a point; no matter how you spread or hop, you're an emitter. >> > Shoot anything that radiates from 50 Mhz-IR. >> >> Ultrabroadband is currently hard to triangulate, unless you're part of the >> network, where TOF mutual triangulation is part of service. >> >> You could triangulate ultrabroadband with an antenna array, but in real >> life the reflexion and multipath will make it difficult. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From a3495 at cotse.com Fri Jul 27 12:53:47 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Salon: The real enemies of the poor Message-ID: <76dd678420fcd09ea4564185d1309b1c@freemail.cotse.com> Salon: The real enemies of the poor On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > What about the idea of "reputation capital" you people are always going >on about, my prior knowledge of a couple of the authors makes me certain >they wouldn't dream of putting their name on sloppy work... >I'm not one of those 'you people'. Arguments from authority are of no >worth. Past performance is not a reliable metric for future performance. >The ends never justify the means, each step must self-justify. What argument from authority? Barring the sudden onset of senility or insanity, familiarity with past work gives you a general indication of whether or not you want to read something. Even reading this list, I'm sure there are people you read first and people you skip totally...And how likely is it that the first 15 essays are excellent but they saved the crappy ones for 16 on? ha! True story: several months ago I went as a "fly on the wall" to a roundtable-type meeting, sort of a gathering of the experts to discuss an issue. As the meeting went on, I noticed one man totally rose to the occasion and dominated the entire conversation: he knew the subject better than absolutely anyone there, and countered every objection with a dissection of such wit and precision he pretty much annihilated them. Even more impressive, while the others were as arrogant, blustering and pompous as you might expect, he was incredibly soft spoken and did it all without even raising his voice once: the very archetype of cool, quick, impartiality. Incredible! When I left the meeting, I had no idea who this amazing old wizard was or the slightest thing about his background--just that it was worth it to find out and read his research. All I'm saying is that his background credentials and published work was every bit as impressive the performance at the meeting...and that one of his essays is on the list. :) Now with a backstory like that, you actually mean to tell me I don't have a good reason to look forward to reading it? HA! > >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global > >government or corporate enterprise. > You mean global corporate enterprise, or corporate enterprise at all? >Actually both. The 1870 law which created the modern monster of a >'corporation' should be thrown out. Replaced with what, though. That's the hard part. > Corporations, and other business organizations, should be able to sell to >their like type across the >relevant 'big pond'. A corporation should not be able to exist in two >different countries as a single organization. So the answer is to break them up and create more paperwork and bureacracy? Even if your last point is the "right answer" in theory, I don't see how the implementation of it would get you the results you're after, in terms of effects on society. > >I want direct interaction of business in government to be prohibited. > How? Any solution I can think of has the potential to be more problematic > than the problem itself. >So what solution(s) have you thought of? Quid pro Quo... The obvious first step would be to limit government to its constitutionally proscribed role: get them out of activities best left to the private sector. But without the incentives for a thriving nonprofit sector in place (yes, 501(c)(3)s are international corporations too), it can't happen in a way people could be comfortable with enough to accept. Nonprofits are the key to creating a civil society, and in my opinion it's a huge mistake to ignore their role in taking over services that the private sector can't or won't. How could voluntary collective action be anything BUT good..? Oh well. >Business is an expression of individual rights. Business should not be >able to contribute in any way to the democratic process (there is a reason >that business/commerce is mentioned the way it is in the Constitution... Realistically speaking, even if the entire US government collapsed tomorrow and you had "complete anarchy", it wouldn't be complete because large corporations have enough capital, resources, and sufficient organization to stay together to the point that they could maintain some semblance of order in their local area. Look at the way the oil companies function in Africa; look at the way drug cartels (an international business operation if ever there was one) influence policy in Columbia. Not that there's anything good or desirable about it--it's just that Joe Blow the Democracy Advocate doesn't have the slightest bit of influence over them one way or the other, government or not. So given that, you're faced with the prospect of massive legislation as the only alternative. That doesn't seem too promising either. >An observation that is sure to piss some C-A-C-L's off, but the reality is >that in 'free market' economics ala Hayek or Von Mises the potential for >'Bill Gates' wealth is nil. A 'free market' system isn't about getting >filthy rich. It's about participating in a 'community'. Unfortunately, this involves a confusion between capitalism and democracy. But unlike you, I don't think there's any contradiction in being pro-free market and anti-consumptionism. I hate the idea that so many people seem to think accumulating material goods is an acceptable substitute for an inner life. But just because I choose to live simply and don't drive in favor of commuting, recycle, etc. doesn't give me the right to demand others do the same. >Bottom line, the world is the way it is because people make it that way. >It is not an inviolate law of nature (or if you accept that then some >other precepts become questionable; free will, rational, responsible, >pre-meditation, etc. ). But the examples I gave above point to the idea that pure democratic anarchy is every bit as bound to fail as the ideal of pure democratic communism was (what's the real difference, when you think about it?) precisely because of the way people tend to make things, given the chance. What's to keep the strong and clever from ganging up on the weak and stupid? The amoral from ripping off the principled and pious? Anywhere, ever? The Constitution and the rule of law is the best chance we have... ~Faustine. From responder at join4free.com Fri Jul 27 09:07:04 2001 From: responder at join4free.com (Join4Free.Com) Date: 27 Jul 2001 16:07:04 -0000 Subject: Welcome to Join4Free.Com Message-ID: <20010727160704.25502.qmail@wwwb3.join4free.com> Thank you for signing up to Join4Free.Com. As a member of Join4Free.Com you will receive: 1) Unlimited Access to Join4Free.Com and all sister sites. 2) A daily adult newsletter with free photos and many other FREE & Special Offers. 3) Special promotional offers from our affiliates (Optinmail.cc). Your email address is secure with us and will only be used through our own network of promotional offers. We will never rent or sell your email to outside marketing agencies. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3633 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ericm at lne.com Fri Jul 27 16:26:59 2001 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:26:59 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: ; from reinhold@world.std.com on Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 06:36:53PM -0400 References: <200107252313.f6PNDTc00814@fbi.crypto.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com> <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20010727162659.C19865@slack.lne.com> On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 06:36:53PM -0400, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: [..] > > If you read the language carefully, you will see that 1201g only > permits *circumvention* as part of cryptographic research (and then > only under limited circumstances). There is nothing in the law that > allows publication of results. > > Even the recent Shamir, et. al. paper on RC4 and WEP could arguably > violate DMCA. WEP could be considered a TPM since it protects > copyrighted works (e.g. e-mail). More importantly RC4 could be used > in some other copy protection system that we don't know about Like an Adobe product- PDF uses RC4 for it's "password protection". Eric From info at tlavideo.com Fri Jul 27 13:54:42 2001 From: info at tlavideo.com (info at tlavideo.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:54:42 -0400 Subject: Movie News From TLAVIDEO.COM Message-ID: Movie News From TLAVIDEO.COM Friday July 26, 2001 We received your e-mail address from a movie website that got lost in the internet shakedown and would love to become your on-line source for VHS/DVD. TLA is an industry leader and we are here to stay! Everything is always on sale, and our reviews are original and honest. TLAVideo.com has been recognized as "Best of the Web" by Forbes Magazine and "Retailer of the Year" from video trade magazines and groups. 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Call us at 1-800-333-8521 (7 days a week, 8:30AM-12MID, ET) or email us at customer-service at tlavideo.com ================================================================================ You can place an order with TLA Video by: 1. Clicking on any of the links above and following all steps to the shopping cart. 2. Calling our toll free number 8AM to 12 Midnight (ET) 7 days a week 800-333-8521 3. Visiting www.tlavideo.com ================================================================================ --- You are currently subscribed to movie-madness as: cypherpunks at toad.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-movie-madness-59328A at lyris.tlavideo.com To change your mailing options go to http://lyris.tlavideo.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=movie-madness From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Jul 27 17:04:39 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:04:39 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism Message-ID: <3B620197.DF410C16@lsil.com> George wrote : >> `(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person >> qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be >> considered shall include-- >> `(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was >> disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner >> reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development >> of encryption technology, versus whether it was whether it was >> disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this >> title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, >> including a violation of privacy or breach of security; >> >> -Declan >> >> >I've been rereading this a bunch of times trying to figure out >what, if anything, it's supposed to mean. I've come up with two >slightly different interpretations: > >1) If you release your results at a university-sponsored conference >you're an exempt researcher, but if you release identical results at >Defcon you're a criminal. > >2) Anyone with the financial resources or legal background to get >this law overturned on Constitutional grounds is not to be >prosecuted in the first place. > >I think 2 is actually the more accurate reading. > >George > It's pretty odd. That is to say, aren't most academic results eventually available to the world at large? The more interesting or applicable they are the faster they spread. So what's the difference where and how the information is released? It is either part of the public forum or it is not. Are we going to split academic publications into two classes now? Will you need a license to hear certain lectures and be prohibited from passing on what you've learned? (3)(A) is an unfairly arbitrary criterion for assigning criminal culpability. Also, what is the relevance of the "or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security" bit? Are they trying to apply the DMCA to anyone who publishes information that makes it easier to develop exploits against OS bugs? That piece seems out of place. There must be a reason it was included. As for George's #2, DMCA does have that flavor. I suppose that it will retain its value as a means for intimidation, Constitutional or otherwise, as long as it is not tested. Then there's the nightmare scenario in which it is upheld. Let's not go there. DMCA is ***not that bad***, at least there is a research exemption but if you want to be a pessimist it looks as though you could be screwed for communicating your knowledge to anyone but a partner or the owner of the copyright protection system. Free labor for the copyright holder. The satisfaction of a job well done for the laboror. Somehow the information derived from study belongs to the owner of the thing studied. Why not apply the same principal to the studies of the human genome? As for Mr. Felton's run-in with this abomination, did he sign any sort of contract with the music guys to get the materials he needed to do his work? That might change how we view his situation relative to DMCA. Mike From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Jul 27 17:17:57 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:17:57 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism References: Message-ID: <3B6204B5.5E0CB96C@lsil.com> freenet. Unless I'm mistaken a node keeps a reference ( even if only temorarily ) to the originating node when data is added. So if I publish sooper-infringer.tar.gz and the neighboring node that gets it is a narc I'm screwed. Identify your dissidents and put in informants as neighbors. Admittedly I didn't read everything yet. What did I miss? Mike Eugene Leitl wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > > What are today's options for anonymous publication? A good summary > > might be instructive. > > Is there anything new on the horizont, apart from the canonical two? > > http://freenet.sourceforge.net/ > http://www.mojonation.net/ From honig at sprynet.com Fri Jul 27 17:32:02 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:32:02 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: References: <3B616A2E.16692.6735636E@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010727173202.00893ab0@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:16 PM 7/27/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >You can present your paper at defcon, as long as there's not an >executable. > No executable, but source. Source code is how some people communicate. Building an executable is another (intentional) behavior. Using that executable is another. Using that executable for *unlicensed* copying is a crime. Nothing else is. >You can create an executable, with source code, package it up and >send it to the copyright owner with a note that says "your protection >is broken: here's the proof." How about dropping them a note to send an engineer to DefCon? >You can shout at the top of your lungs that their crypto is broken, >on all kinds of forums. Might be libel if not true. From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 08:33:16 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:33:16 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? In-Reply-To: <3B6183DC.ABC87762@black.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? It would be actually very nice to infect machines in opressive regimes with well-behaved anonymous publishing remixers, with web gateways. MojoNation can be hacked to be essentially unfilterable, and only make connections into different legal compartments (which would probably not always be a good idea, e.g. due to the Great Chinese Firewall). From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 08:33:16 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:33:16 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? In-Reply-To: <3B6183DC.ABC87762@black.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > When is Sircam source going to be put on Sourceforge? It would be actually very nice to infect machines in opressive regimes with well-behaved anonymous publishing remixers, with web gateways. MojoNation can be hacked to be essentially unfilterable, and only make connections into different legal compartments (which would probably not always be a good idea, e.g. due to the Great Chinese Firewall). 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Visit our Subscription Center to edit your interests or unsubscribe. http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&id=bd7n7877.8csig847&m=bd7n7877&ea=cypherpunks at cyberpass.net View our privacy policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 21493 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Jul 27 18:31:25 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:31:25 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access Message-ID: <3B6215ED.1C211612@lsil.com> > I think a lot of the flaws with the DMCA could be fixed by allowing > an exemption for a "notice period" -- one year after you notify them > that their crypto is broken, they've had enough time to fix it -- > and if they haven't fixed it, they deserve what they get. > > Bear > Not acceptable. DMCA is too one-sided. It is an unjust evolutionary dead-end. How would this play out : Hello Clay and Hay Brick Corp, sorry to rain on your hacienda but I've figured out a way to compromise your new eContent system. You might as well tell us, we'll have the FBI kick your ass if you tell anyone else. It was a lot of work and I'm really clever, I should get paid for my efforts. Sounds like cyber-terrorist threats to me. You'd better factor the likely scenarios into your backup policy. I suppose the only bright spot is that 99.99% of the content that is "protected" by DMCA is not worth consuming in the first place. Mike From reinhold at world.std.com Fri Jul 27 15:36:53 2001 From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:36:53 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> References: <200107252313.f6PNDTc00814@fbi.crypto.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com> <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:56 AM -0400 7/27/2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:53:02PM -0400, David Jablon wrote: >> With these great new laws, there is no longer any risk of being legally >> criticised for using even the most glaringly flawed cryptography >>-- just use it >> for Copy Protection, and TADA! Negative criticism magically disappears. >> Almost by definition. >> >> Flaws can only be exposed by those who won't show their work, >> or from anonymous sources, who nobody will trust without confirmation [...] >[...] >> We seem to be entering the twilight zone -- the end of an exciting, >> but brief era -- of public cryptography. > >The DMCA may be bad, but it's not *that* bad. It contains a broad >prohibition against circumvention ("No person shall circumvent a >technological measure that effectively controls access") and then has >a bunch of exceptions. > >One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my >legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption >research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad >enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge >wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of >sorts. See below. If you read the language carefully, you will see that 1201g only permits *circumvention* as part of cryptographic research (and then only under limited circumstances). There is nothing in the law that allows publication of results. Even the recent Shamir, et. al. paper on RC4 and WEP could arguably violate DMCA. WEP could be considered a TPM since it protects copyrighted works (e.g. e-mail). More importantly RC4 could be used in some other copy protection system that we don't know about -- it's use might even be a trade secret. There is simply no way to guarantee that a given cryptoanalytic result doesn't compromise some TPM. Even software that breaks Ceaser ciphers could be actionable. DCMA is *that* bad. Arnold Reinhold > >-Declan > >PS: Some background on Sklyarov case: >http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=sklyarov > >PPS: Note you only get the exemption if you make "a good faith effort >to obtain authorization before the circumvention." Gotta love >Congress, eh? > > > >http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: > >`(g) ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- > >`(1) DEFINITIONS- For purposes of this subsection-- > >`(A) the term `encryption research' means activities necessary to >identify and analyze flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption >technologies applied to copyrighted works, if these activities are >conducted to advance the state of knowledge in the field of encryption >technology or to assist in the development of encryption products; and > >`(B) the term `encryption technology' means the scrambling and >descrambling of information using mathematical formulas or algorithms. > >`(2) PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the >provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that >subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as >applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published >work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if-- > >`(A) the person lawfully obtained the encrypted copy, phonorecord, >performance, or display of the published work; > >`(B) such act is necessary to conduct such encryption research; > >`(C) the person made a good faith effort to obtain authorization >before the circumvention; and > >`(D) such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a >violation of applicable law other than this section, including section >1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the >Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. > >`(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person >qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be >considered shall include-- > >`(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was >disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner >reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development >of encryption technology, versus whether it was disseminated in a >manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation >of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of >privacy or breach of security; > >`(B) whether the person is engaged in a legitimate course of study, is >employed, or is appropriately trained or experienced, in the field of >encryption technology; and > >`(C) whether the person provides the copyright owner of the work to >which the technological measure is applied with notice of the findings >and documentation of the research, and the time when such notice is >provided. > >`(4) USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- >Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a >violation of that subsection for a person to-- > >`(A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a >technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing >the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); >and > >`(B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or >she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts >of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for >the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good >faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Cryptography Mailing List >Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to >majordomo at wasabisystems.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 10:01:26 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:01:26 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: File-trading pressure mounts on ISPs Message-ID: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/cn/20010725/tc/file-trading_pressure_mounts_on_isps_1.html Wednesday July 25 05:00 PM EDT File-trading pressure mounts on ISPs By John Borland CNET News.com Record companies have joined the movie industry in trying to root out post-Napster file trading, putting new pressure on ISPs to clamp down on subscribers' actions. ISPs say the last few weeks have seen a sharp uptick in the number of requests they're getting to pull the plug on subscribers who are using file-trading software such as Gnutella or iMesh. Driven by a combination of high-profile summer movie releases and a growth in the business of independent piracy hunters, these requests are putting service providers in an awkward position. Even as they avoid facing media-industry lawyers, these ISPs risk losing their customers to competing Internet access companies that may be less aggressive about curtailing the use of file-trading software. High-speed Internet provider Adelphia, a cable company based in Pennsylvania, is one of the latest to join the list of ISPs cracking down on file swapping in the post-Napster world. Like many other ISPs, it has started suspending accounts of people who have been identified by record companies or movie studios as file swappers. "Over the past several weeks the Adelphia Internet Abuse Investigation Team has seen a dramatic increase in the number of reports of copyright infringement," Michael Healy, the company's senior Internet abuse investigator, wrote in an e-mail to CNET News.com. "While Adelphia values its relationship with our customers, we must also take appropriate action when necessary to safeguard our interests in the global Internet community." Adelphia, like other ISPs offering high-speed Net service, is increasingly caught in a bind between protecting their customers and responding to the growing demands of copyright holders. Privately, ISP executives say that Napster and its rivals have been one of the biggest drivers of high-speed Internet use, a part of their business that most big ISPs are desperately trying to improve. But as decentralized swapping services like Gnutella, Music City's Morpheus and Kazaa emerge, copyright holders are leaning on ISPs to cut off file swapping at the source. Rise of the bounty hunters ISPs have long received letters from record companies or movie studios about pirated works on their networks. But until the rise of Napster and similar services, the way to handle these was clearer. Under federal copyright law, an ISP is not liable for any copyright content posted on its network as long as it removes the content as soon as the owner points it out. Traditionally, movies, songs and software have been posted on the ISP's servers in the forms of pirate FTP sites or Web sites, and the ISP could simply pull these down. In the file-swapping world, the law has become murkier. People using Napster, Gnutella or the others keep all content on their hard drives, and the only way to block their actions is to turn off their connections. Some ISPs, such as Verizon Communications (NYSE:VZ - news), have refused to go this far, calling it a "drastic remedy that infringes on people's rights and speech." The Motion Picture Association of America has been one of the biggest forces using these tactics. But individual studios are also boosting their efforts with ISPs. Twentieth Century Fox, for example, recently sent a notice telling service providers that distribution of any "Planet of the Apes" movie clips would be unauthorized, and that ISPs should pull them down. ISPs say this kind of announcement before the release of a movie is unusual, indicating just how seriously Hollywood is beginning to take online piracy. But the recent growth in threatening letters from the media industry is also coming from independent piracy hunters, such as MediaForce and Copyright.net, which contract with individual artists, labels or studios to hunt down versions of copyrighted works online. "We've sent out substantially more letters over the last several weeks, as more customers are interested in protecting their copyrights online," said MediaForce Chief Executive Aaron Fessler. He declined to give his customers' names, saying that most wanted to keep their involvement "hush-hush," leery of the backlash that met rock band Metallica after it publicly took a stand against Napster. But he said that one of the five largest major record labels has recently begun using his company's services. These independent companies operate automated systems that can troll file-swapping networks looking for their clients' work. Once they find it, it is a simple task to figure out the Internet address of the computer that is offering the content to the world. The companies then cross-reference this information with the ISP that owns that Internet address and send a letter showing exactly which files are being shared, demanding that the subscriber be stopped. Using this information, ISPs can figure out who was using that address at that time. Some, like Verizon, are resisting the demands, saying that copyright law does not force them to monitor or respond directly to content that is on their subscribers' hard drives. Others, like Adelphia, quickly cut off their subscribers' connections. Many, including DirecTV Broadband and Excite at Home, issue warning letters to their subscribers. If there is a second violation, the subscribers' accounts may be terminated for violating the ISPs' terms-of-service agreements, which generally bar using the networks for copyright violations. Excite at Home says most cases have stopped short of pulling the plug, and that only one person has been terminated. "It turns into an education opportunity," said Harris Schwartz, director of network policy and standards for Excite at Home. "In many cases subscribers had no idea that they were doing anything wrong." Adelphia's Healy said the Recording Industry Association of America, the trade group that has pursued Napster and its rivals most vigorously in court, has not been as visible as the independent piracy hunters. But subscribers are nevertheless being targeted for trading songs. Former Adelphia customer Tyrone Martin was one of those targets. He had used Bearshare, a popular program that taps into the Gnutella network, to trade audio files online. Two weeks ago he found his connection turned off and got a letter from his ISP saying the service had been suspended. Like many other customers receiving similar notices, Martin simply went elsewhere. "I told them where they could stick their modem and cable equipment and proceeded to cancel my cable TV and modem accounts," Martin wrote in an e-mail to CNET News.com. "They are a communications provider. They are not censors or a government agency! Adelphia will never get another penny from me and I hope others follow suit." From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 10:01:26 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:01:26 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: File-trading pressure mounts on ISPs Message-ID: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/cn/20010725/tc/file-trading_pressure_mounts_on_isps_1.html Wednesday July 25 05:00 PM EDT File-trading pressure mounts on ISPs By John Borland CNET News.com Record companies have joined the movie industry in trying to root out post-Napster file trading, putting new pressure on ISPs to clamp down on subscribers' actions. ISPs say the last few weeks have seen a sharp uptick in the number of requests they're getting to pull the plug on subscribers who are using file-trading software such as Gnutella or iMesh. Driven by a combination of high-profile summer movie releases and a growth in the business of independent piracy hunters, these requests are putting service providers in an awkward position. Even as they avoid facing media-industry lawyers, these ISPs risk losing their customers to competing Internet access companies that may be less aggressive about curtailing the use of file-trading software. High-speed Internet provider Adelphia, a cable company based in Pennsylvania, is one of the latest to join the list of ISPs cracking down on file swapping in the post-Napster world. Like many other ISPs, it has started suspending accounts of people who have been identified by record companies or movie studios as file swappers. "Over the past several weeks the Adelphia Internet Abuse Investigation Team has seen a dramatic increase in the number of reports of copyright infringement," Michael Healy, the company's senior Internet abuse investigator, wrote in an e-mail to CNET News.com. "While Adelphia values its relationship with our customers, we must also take appropriate action when necessary to safeguard our interests in the global Internet community." Adelphia, like other ISPs offering high-speed Net service, is increasingly caught in a bind between protecting their customers and responding to the growing demands of copyright holders. Privately, ISP executives say that Napster and its rivals have been one of the biggest drivers of high-speed Internet use, a part of their business that most big ISPs are desperately trying to improve. But as decentralized swapping services like Gnutella, Music City's Morpheus and Kazaa emerge, copyright holders are leaning on ISPs to cut off file swapping at the source. Rise of the bounty hunters ISPs have long received letters from record companies or movie studios about pirated works on their networks. But until the rise of Napster and similar services, the way to handle these was clearer. Under federal copyright law, an ISP is not liable for any copyright content posted on its network as long as it removes the content as soon as the owner points it out. Traditionally, movies, songs and software have been posted on the ISP's servers in the forms of pirate FTP sites or Web sites, and the ISP could simply pull these down. In the file-swapping world, the law has become murkier. People using Napster, Gnutella or the others keep all content on their hard drives, and the only way to block their actions is to turn off their connections. Some ISPs, such as Verizon Communications (NYSE:VZ - news), have refused to go this far, calling it a "drastic remedy that infringes on people's rights and speech." The Motion Picture Association of America has been one of the biggest forces using these tactics. But individual studios are also boosting their efforts with ISPs. Twentieth Century Fox, for example, recently sent a notice telling service providers that distribution of any "Planet of the Apes" movie clips would be unauthorized, and that ISPs should pull them down. ISPs say this kind of announcement before the release of a movie is unusual, indicating just how seriously Hollywood is beginning to take online piracy. But the recent growth in threatening letters from the media industry is also coming from independent piracy hunters, such as MediaForce and Copyright.net, which contract with individual artists, labels or studios to hunt down versions of copyrighted works online. "We've sent out substantially more letters over the last several weeks, as more customers are interested in protecting their copyrights online," said MediaForce Chief Executive Aaron Fessler. He declined to give his customers' names, saying that most wanted to keep their involvement "hush-hush," leery of the backlash that met rock band Metallica after it publicly took a stand against Napster. But he said that one of the five largest major record labels has recently begun using his company's services. These independent companies operate automated systems that can troll file-swapping networks looking for their clients' work. Once they find it, it is a simple task to figure out the Internet address of the computer that is offering the content to the world. The companies then cross-reference this information with the ISP that owns that Internet address and send a letter showing exactly which files are being shared, demanding that the subscriber be stopped. Using this information, ISPs can figure out who was using that address at that time. Some, like Verizon, are resisting the demands, saying that copyright law does not force them to monitor or respond directly to content that is on their subscribers' hard drives. Others, like Adelphia, quickly cut off their subscribers' connections. Many, including DirecTV Broadband and Excite at Home, issue warning letters to their subscribers. If there is a second violation, the subscribers' accounts may be terminated for violating the ISPs' terms-of-service agreements, which generally bar using the networks for copyright violations. Excite at Home says most cases have stopped short of pulling the plug, and that only one person has been terminated. "It turns into an education opportunity," said Harris Schwartz, director of network policy and standards for Excite at Home. "In many cases subscribers had no idea that they were doing anything wrong." Adelphia's Healy said the Recording Industry Association of America, the trade group that has pursued Napster and its rivals most vigorously in court, has not been as visible as the independent piracy hunters. But subscribers are nevertheless being targeted for trading songs. Former Adelphia customer Tyrone Martin was one of those targets. He had used Bearshare, a popular program that taps into the Gnutella network, to trade audio files online. Two weeks ago he found his connection turned off and got a letter from his ISP saying the service had been suspended. Like many other customers receiving similar notices, Martin simply went elsewhere. "I told them where they could stick their modem and cable equipment and proceeded to cancel my cable TV and modem accounts," Martin wrote in an e-mail to CNET News.com. "They are a communications provider. They are not censors or a government agency! Adelphia will never get another penny from me and I hope others follow suit." From honig at sprynet.com Fri Jul 27 19:05:48 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:05:48 -0700 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: <200107271943.OAA24326@david15.dallas.nationwide.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010727190548.0089f970@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:43 PM 7/27/01 -0500, drs wrote: > Let me suggest that everyone defer to "Classical Electrodynamics" >by Jackson, as a definitive reference. It's the canonical physics text on Tim May has also suggested Jackson. What flavor of anarcho-radical subversive discontent is Jackson? ;-P From dpj at world.std.com Fri Jul 27 16:11:10 2001 From: dpj at world.std.com (David Jablon) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:11:10 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: References: <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> <200107252313.f6PNDTc00814@fbi.crypto.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010726220131.04f17e30@world.std.com> <20010727015656.A22910@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010727184705.045325e0@world.std.com> ... not especially crypto related, but ... There is a serious problem with a law that broadly encroaches on freedom of speech, patched-up with vague and complex exceptions that only a lawyer can decipher. Worse still, interpretation here seems to require as-yet-undetermined case law. A patchwork of exceptions, tailored to satisfy special interest groups, is a very sloppy and incomplete way to deal with a fundamental problem. I suppose my years of exposure to bad software have sensitized me to bad law, so sorry for the rant. -- David At 06:36 PM 7/27/01 -0400, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: >At 1:56 AM -0400 7/27/2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:53:02PM -0400, David Jablon wrote: >>>[...] We seem to be entering the twilight zone -- the end of an exciting, >>>but brief era -- of public cryptography. >> >>The DMCA may be bad, but it's not *that* bad. It contains a broad >>prohibition against circumvention ("No person shall circumvent a >>technological measure that effectively controls access") and then has >>a bunch of exceptions. >> >>One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my >>legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption >>research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad >>enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge >>wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of >>sorts. See below. > >If you read the language carefully, you will see that 1201g only permits *circumvention* as part of cryptographic research (and then only under limited circumstances). There is nothing in the law that allows publication of results. > >Even the recent Shamir, et. al. paper on RC4 and WEP could arguably violate DMCA. WEP could be considered a TPM since it protects copyrighted works (e.g. e-mail). More importantly RC4 could be used in some other copy protection system that we don't know about -- it's use might even be a trade secret. There is simply no way to guarantee that a given cryptoanalytic result doesn't compromise some TPM. Even software that breaks Ceaser ciphers could be actionable. DCMA is *that* bad. > >Arnold Reinhold > > >> >>-Declan >> >>PS: Some background on Sklyarov case: >>http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=sklyarov >> >>PPS: Note you only get the exemption if you make "a good faith effort >>to obtain authorization before the circumvention." Gotta love >>Congress, eh? >> >> >> >>http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: >> >>`(g) ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- >> >>`(1) DEFINITIONS- For purposes of this subsection-- >> >>`(A) the term `encryption research' means activities necessary to >>identify and analyze flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption >>technologies applied to copyrighted works, if these activities are >>conducted to advance the state of knowledge in the field of encryption >>technology or to assist in the development of encryption products; and >> >>`(B) the term `encryption technology' means the scrambling and >>descrambling of information using mathematical formulas or algorithms. >> >>`(2) PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the >>provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that >>subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as >>applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published >>work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if-- >> >>`(A) the person lawfully obtained the encrypted copy, phonorecord, >>performance, or display of the published work; >> >>`(B) such act is necessary to conduct such encryption research; >> >>`(C) the person made a good faith effort to obtain authorization >>before the circumvention; and >> >>`(D) such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a >>violation of applicable law other than this section, including section >>1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the >>Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. >> >>`(3) FACTORS IN DETERMINING EXEMPTION- In determining whether a person >>qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be >>considered shall include-- >> >>`(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was >>disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner >>reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development >>of encryption technology, versus whether it was disseminated in a >>manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation >>of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of >>privacy or breach of security; >> >>`(B) whether the person is engaged in a legitimate course of study, is >>employed, or is appropriately trained or experienced, in the field of >>encryption technology; and >> >>`(C) whether the person provides the copyright owner of the work to >>which the technological measure is applied with notice of the findings >>and documentation of the research, and the time when such notice is >>provided. >> >>`(4) USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- >>Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a >>violation of that subsection for a person to-- >> >>`(A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a >>technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing >>the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); >>and >> >>`(B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or >>she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts >>of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for >>the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good >>faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 27 19:16:14 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:16:14 -0700 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: <200107271943.OAA24326@david15.dallas.nationwide.net> References: <200107271943.OAA24326@david15.dallas.nationwide.net> Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0500 7/27/01, drs wrote: > >> 12:39 AM 7/25/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > > > IAAP, so let me make a suggestion. Don't argue about physics. The >winner comes down to the person or persons least wrong since every >description given so far is an attempt to extend some part of an >incomplete picture in a way that is _WRONG_, leading to arguments >about misstatements. > You're a twerp worse in many ways than Choate is. I expect he will embrace you as his new ally. After this message, you will reside in my kill file. > Scattering is not reflection. In fact, photons do lose energy >scattering and the first experiments that demonstrated this is where >scattering gets its name: Compton scattering. The compton scattering >formula is easily derived from conservation of 4-momentum. Reflection >from a mirror is easily described by maxwell's equations, but is more >difficult in terms of photons. While the description of the photoelectric >effect is more or less ok, the term "thermalize" means applies to >contimuum scattering of electrons in the conduction band through collisions >with other electrons, not to discrete transitions. Describing a reflection >as scattering can be done, but not in the length of this response. Yeah, and not in the length of _my_ response. I used "scattering" as the shorthand name for all of the physics of incident photons being returned or thermalized: pure reflections, reflections off of asperities, and even absorbtion in the target. There are at least three major domains for discussing Choate's claim that photons hit a target, "lose some energy," and are then re-emitted at some lower energy: * Domain 1: Newtonian physics. Light of some color is reflected at the same color, minus absorbed frequencies. (Blue light reflects as blue light, never as red light.) Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection, etc. * Domain 2: Maxwell's equations. Same basic physics, but more nuanced in terms of E and H fields, more details about how conductors and dielectrics respond to incident photons. Nevertheless, same results predicted as in Domain 1. * Domain 3: Semi-philosophical stuff about whether the incident photon is the "same" as the returned photon. Issues of whether photons are really waves or corpuscles. Again, no deviation from Domain. Regardless of which domain one spends time in, the notion that a "blue photon" loses energy and is downshifted in frequency is SIMPLY NOT OBSERVED. Whether one cites just the observations, that reflections do do NOT shift the frequencies of monochromatic light (what I call in shorthand "blue photons"), or one cites quauntum theory (no partial losses of photon energy, basically), the fact is that Choate is incorrect in claiming that photons lose energy (frequency) when reflecting or scattering off of mirrors. Beams may lose _intensity_, as some photons scatter at wide angles (not with the main angle of reflection, in other words), or are absorbed and thermalized by the mirror itself. But the photons DO NOT lose energy due to the "resistance" and the "induced currents." A naive reading of some physics texts, even Jackson's "Classical Electrodynamics," might suggest to the naive reader that some weird interaction and ohmic loss might "downshift" the frequency of photons, but experiments show no such downshift, In fact, Einstein got the Nobel for explaining why photons don't lose ANY energy except when they lose ALL of their energy via the photoelectic effect. > > Let me suggest that everyone defer to "Classical Electrodynamics" >by Jackson, as a definitive reference. It's the canonical physics text on >the subject and is practically universal as the text for a first year >graduate course in any physics program. If you know anyone that's >a physicist, they should have a copy. Which I used in 1973. As for your sentiments about how _both_ of us are wrong, you're an ass. P L O N K. Have fun with Jim Choate as your new best friend. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Fri Jul 27 19:21:39 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:21:39 -0700 Subject: Choate Prime Physics In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010727190548.0089f970@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010727190548.0089f970@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 PM -0700 7/27/01, David Honig wrote: >At 02:43 PM 7/27/01 -0500, drs wrote: >> Let me suggest that everyone defer to "Classical Electrodynamics" >>by Jackson, as a definitive reference. It's the canonical physics text on > >Tim May has also suggested Jackson. What flavor of anarcho-radical >subversive discontent is Jackson? Jackson, who probably is not still alive, would laugh uproariously at Choate's notion that a photon which strikes/scatters off of a surface loses some of its energy through some kind of ohmic dissipation of energy in the target. See my other article, a few minutes earlier than this one. This "drs" character has apparently learned in his kolletch classes that saying "You're both wrong" is the path toward harmony. Fucking twit. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 10:25:42 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:25:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3B61A19A.5C75965A@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > What are today's options for anonymous publication? A good summary > might be instructive. Is there anything new on the horizont, apart from the canonical two? http://freenet.sourceforge.net/ http://www.mojonation.net/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Fri Jul 27 10:25:42 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:25:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3B61A19A.5C75965A@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > What are today's options for anonymous publication? A good summary > might be instructive. Is there anything new on the horizont, apart from the canonical two? http://freenet.sourceforge.net/ http://www.mojonation.net/ From mail0710 at btamail.net.cn Fri Jul 27 19:33:38 2001 From: mail0710 at btamail.net.cn (Dora) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:33:38 Subject: Is This The Right Time? Message-ID: <200107271429.f6RETYq30368@ak47.algebra.com> Hello, Is this the right time to talk to you about a 2nd income? Do you have leadership skills? 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Lawrence - Seven Pillars of Wisdom ~ ------------------------------------------------ To be removed from our list please send a blank message here: mailto:mail0719 at btamail.net.cn?subject=remove From georgemw at speakeasy.net Fri Jul 27 20:27:41 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:27:41 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <3B620197.DF410C16@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3B61CEBD.30496.68BE32AD@localhost> On 27 Jul 2001, at 17:04, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > George wrote : > As for Mr. Felton's run-in with this abomination, did he sign any sort > of contract with the music guys to get the materials he needed to do his > work? That might change how we view his situation relative to DMCA. > > Mike > > Well, maybe. As I recall, one of the things mentioned in the complaint is that he violated the click-through license agreement by publishing his results. My understanding is that it has not been thoroughly resolved how binding these things are. I think it's only in Dilbert that you can click on one of these without reading it and wind up as Bill Gates' towelboy, but IANAL. ObPuzzle: You are in a room with three monkeys. One has a banana, one has a stick, one has nothing. Which primate is the smartest? George From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Jul 27 20:59:42 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:59:42 -0700 Subject: Inadvertently appropriate spam from TLAVIDEO.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010727204750.032b1da0@idiom.com> TLA Video. So *many* possibilities :-) We've got your FBI surveillance videos, your NRO satellite photos, CIA spy movies, KGB spy movies with similar plots, OMB fantasies, IRS S&M flix, FCC bootlegs of "Seven dirty words you can't say on TV", movies about chocolate from the FDA and NEA, science fiction from the DOE and EPA (and the Warren Commission), even a few old black&white WPA films. And an 800 number just waiting for some 2600 kiddie to have fun with it.... At 04:54 PM 07/27/2001 -0400, info at tlavideo.com wrote: >Movie News From TLAVIDEO.COM > >Friday July 26, 2001 > >We received your e-mail address from a movie website that got lost in the >internet shakedown and would love to become your on-line source for >VHS/DVD. TLA is an industry leader and we are here to stay! Everything is >always on sale, and our reviews are original and honest. TLAVideo.com has >been recognized as "Best of the Web" by Forbes Magazine and "Retailer of >the Year" from video trade magazines and groups. 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Visiting www.tlavideo.com > >================================================================================ > > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to movie-madness as: cypherpunks at toad.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to >leave-movie-madness-59328A at lyris.tlavideo.com >To change your mailing options go to >http://lyris.tlavideo.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=movie-madness From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 27 21:32:15 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On the turning away of hackers In-Reply-To: <3B61BE19.67B80383@black.org> Message-ID: <20010728043215.86021.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> > "Careful with that axe, Eugene." One of these days I'm gonna filter you out into pieces ... ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! 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Click here to visit our web site. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 27 19:00:02 2001 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:00:02 -0000 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism Message-ID: <20010728020002.31010.qmail@nym.alias.net> Arnold Reinhold writes: > If you read the language carefully, you will see that 1201g only > permits *circumvention* as part of cryptographic research (and then > only under limited circumstances). There is nothing in the law that > allows publication of results. Not true. Look closely at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: (note that the final colon is part of the URL). 1201(a)(1)(A): No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. This is the basic provision which outlaws circumvention. 1201(g)(2): PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if-- [Various provisions, including making a good faith effort to get permission] And this is the provision which allows encryption research even when that involves circumvention. Neither of these addresses publication. This is possibly covered in the following: 1201(a)(2): No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that-- (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. It is not at all clear that publishing a research result relating to a cryptographic problem in a copyright protecting technology would fall into any of these categories. First, such a publication is clearly not a "product, service, device, component, or part thereof". Conceivably it could be a "technology" although most cryptographic papers are a long way from an actual technology. Second, the primary purpose of such a publication is not to enable circumvention, but to advance the state of the art in science. Hence it is not covered by provision (a)(2)(A), and not by (B) or (C) either. Nevertheless if publication were to be interpreted as being covered by this provision, there is a further exception in 1201(g): 1201(g)(4): USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to-- (A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); and (B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). Again, this appears to be interpreted in the context of (A)(2) forbidding the actual construction of devices which are are developed, employed, and distributed. Even if we interpret (A)(2) to include cryptographic publications, however, the provision still applies. Note in particular the language in (B) which allows another person to verify the act of good faith encryption research. This is one of the main purposes of publication, to allow verification of the results by others. Hence publications which show cryptographic holes in deployed encryption systems are exempt. This provision also allows the distribution of circumvention software for legitimate research purposes. Note too the additional provision: 1201(c)(4): Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing products. Clearly publication of cryptographic results is a fundamental part of free speech and will not be infringed by the DMCA. Much of the hysteria regarding the DMCA's supposed ability to quash free speech by cryptographic researchers is being whipped up by opponents to the DMCA who are misrepresenting the DMCA in a calculated fashion in order to promote opposition. Consider two recent cases. Dmitry Sklyarov of Russia has been arrested for violating the DMCA. Many DMCA opponents initially claimed that he had been arrested for discussing problems in Adobe's ebook software. This claim was false and has been largely abandoned now, but it has served its pupose of giving the impression that DMCA will criminalize publication. Princeton Professor Edward Felten and his research team were prevented from presenting their results regarding flaws in SDMI at the Information Hiding Workshop, based on a letter from the Recording Industry Association of America which claimed that such publication would violate the DMCA. In this case, the RIAA was mistaken about the application of the DMCA, as the above analysis makes clear. In fact the RIAA takes that same position now, as seen in http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/Felten_v_RIAA/20010606_riaa_statement.html. The decision to pull out of the conference was made jointly by Felten, his team, and conference organizers. If they made the decision based on fears of the DMCA, their decision was mistaken. Again, anti-DMCA forces have used this case as an example of how the DMCA supposedly prevents free speech. In fact it is more an example of how the misinformation spread by DMCA opponents is preventing free speech. Had the true facts about the DMCA been widely known and disseminated, Felten et al would have presented their paper and the RIAA's letter would have been seen at the empty threat it was. (Yes, lawyers issue letters with empty threats and bluffs all the time. It's called the real world, folks.) There are many problems with the DMCA, but opponents will serve their cause best by being honest and straightforward about what the measure does and does not do. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From daniel at aol.com Sat Jul 28 02:11:46 2001 From: daniel at aol.com (daniel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:11:46 Subject: WIN WORLD TRAVEL Message-ID: <334.640881.545403@aol.com> SEE ANNA KORNICOVA GETTING HER ASS REAMED IN PICTURES NEVER SEEN BEFORE BY THE PUBLIC. 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HOT ASIAN PUSSY NOW. 4 THE HOTTEST XXX ASIAN/ORIENTAL ANAL FUCKING, COCK SUCKING, CUM SWALLOWING, DOWN RIGHT MIND BLOWING ASIAN PORN SITE EVER TO BE RELEASED GO TO : http://www.leohost.com/clients/nuke/ot/index.html ################################################################## GAY TRANNY BISEXUAL.GAY TRANNY BISEXUAL.GAY TRANNY BISEXUAL SICK OF POOR QUALITY HALF ASS GAY SITES?WELL LOOK NO FURTHER OUR BOYS ARE THE BEST IN THS WORLD.THESE YOUNG BOYS OOZE SEX APPEAL.THOUSANDS OF HOT SWEATY GUYS ARE JUST A CLICK AWAY JOIN THE PARTY AND CUM TO :http://www.leohost.com/clients/nuke/st/index.html ################################################################## TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LIST GO TO: http://www.geocities.com/xxcancelxx From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 00:32:57 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:32:57 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010728020002.31010.qmail@nym.alias.net>; from mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu on Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 02:00:02AM -0000 References: <20010728020002.31010.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <20010728033257.B20057@cluebot.com> This is a reasonable post, based on my quick read of it. The DMCA may be bad, but there are far worse things that Congress could do. I may write a more detailed analysis tomorrow. -Declan On Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 02:00:02AM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > Arnold Reinhold writes: > > > If you read the language carefully, you will see that 1201g only > > permits *circumvention* as part of cryptographic research (and then > > only under limited circumstances). There is nothing in the law that > > allows publication of results. > > Not true. Look closely at > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR: (note that > the final colon is part of the URL). > > 1201(a)(1)(A): > No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively > controls access to a work protected under this title. > > This is the basic provision which outlaws circumvention. > > 1201(g)(2): > PERMISSIBLE ACTS OF ENCRYPTION RESEARCH- Notwithstanding the provisions > of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for > a person to circumvent a technological measure as applied to a copy, > phonorecord, performance, or display of a published work in the course > of an act of good faith encryption research if-- > [Various provisions, including making a good faith effort to get > permission] > > And this is the provision which allows encryption research even when that > involves circumvention. > > Neither of these addresses publication. This is possibly covered in > the following: > > 1201(a)(2): > No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, > or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, > component, or part thereof, that-- > (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of > circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls > access to a work protected under this title; > > (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other > than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls > access to a work protected under this title; or > > (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with > that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing > a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work > protected under this title. > > It is not at all clear that publishing a research result relating to a > cryptographic problem in a copyright protecting technology would fall > into any of these categories. First, such a publication is clearly not a > "product, service, device, component, or part thereof". Conceivably it > could be a "technology" although most cryptographic papers are a long > way from an actual technology. > > Second, the primary purpose of such a publication is not to enable > circumvention, but to advance the state of the art in science. Hence it > is not covered by provision (a)(2)(A), and not by (B) or (C) either. > > Nevertheless if publication were to be interpreted as being covered by > this provision, there is a further exception in 1201(g): > > 1201(g)(4): > USE OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEANS FOR RESEARCH ACTIVITIES- Notwithstanding > the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a violation of that > subsection for a person to-- > > (A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a > technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing > the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph > (2); and > > (B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he > or she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the > acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) > or for the purpose of having that other person verify his or her > acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2). > > Again, this appears to be interpreted in the context of (A)(2) forbidding > the actual construction of devices which are are developed, employed, > and distributed. Even if we interpret (A)(2) to include cryptographic > publications, however, the provision still applies. Note in particular > the language in (B) which allows another person to verify the act of > good faith encryption research. This is one of the main purposes of > publication, to allow verification of the results by others. > > Hence publications which show cryptographic holes in deployed encryption > systems are exempt. This provision also allows the distribution of > circumvention software for legitimate research purposes. > > Note too the additional provision: > > 1201(c)(4): > Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of > free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, > telecommunications, or computing products. > > Clearly publication of cryptographic results is a fundamental part of > free speech and will not be infringed by the DMCA. > > > Much of the hysteria regarding the DMCA's supposed ability to quash free > speech by cryptographic researchers is being whipped up by opponents > to the DMCA who are misrepresenting the DMCA in a calculated fashion in > order to promote opposition. Consider two recent cases. > > Dmitry Sklyarov of Russia has been arrested for violating the DMCA. > Many DMCA opponents initially claimed that he had been arrested for > discussing problems in Adobe's ebook software. This claim was false and > has been largely abandoned now, but it has served its pupose of giving > the impression that DMCA will criminalize publication. > > Princeton Professor Edward Felten and his research team were prevented > from presenting their results regarding flaws in SDMI at the Information > Hiding Workshop, based on a letter from the Recording Industry Association > of America which claimed that such publication would violate the DMCA. > > In this case, the RIAA was mistaken about the application of the DMCA, > as the above analysis makes clear. In fact the RIAA takes that same > position now, as seen in > http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/Felten_v_RIAA/20010606_riaa_statement.html. > The decision to pull out of the conference was made jointly by Felten, > his team, and conference organizers. If they made the decision based > on fears of the DMCA, their decision was mistaken. > > Again, anti-DMCA forces have used this case as an example of how the DMCA > supposedly prevents free speech. In fact it is more an example of how > the misinformation spread by DMCA opponents is preventing free speech. > Had the true facts about the DMCA been widely known and disseminated, > Felten et al would have presented their paper and the RIAA's letter > would have been seen at the empty threat it was. (Yes, lawyers issue > letters with empty threats and bluffs all the time. It's called the > real world, folks.) > > There are many problems with the DMCA, but opponents will serve their > cause best by being honest and straightforward about what the measure > does and does not do. From root at david15.dallas.nationwide.net Sat Jul 28 01:44:42 2001 From: root at david15.dallas.nationwide.net (drs) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:44:42 -0500 Subject: Choate Prime Physics Message-ID: <200107280844.DAA28644@david15.dallas.nationwide.net> > You're a twerp worse in many ways than Choate is. I expect he will > embrace you as his new ally. Not knowing exactly what that is supposed to mean, I can only assume that it means "not politically correct" or "scientifically accurate." If that's supposed to be an insult - well ok. > After this message, you will reside in > my kill file. Someone should tell him not to go to a lot of effort on my account. Apparently, scientific accuracy is not the thrust of the posts, I'm not particularly good at being politically correct and since I thought this had something to do with cryptography, there's not much reason for me to interrupt any more squabbles. From bear at sonic.net Sat Jul 28 07:08:52 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010727173202.00893ab0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: >>You can create an executable, with source code, package it up and >>send it to the copyright owner with a note that says "your protection >>is broken: here's the proof." > >How about dropping them a note to send an engineer to DefCon? Not a problem -- as long as what you're making available to the public at DefCon is not a program that script kiddies can download and use to break stuff. >>You can shout at the top of your lungs that their crypto is broken, >>on all kinds of forums. > >Might be libel if not true. Oh, yeah, feature them suing you for libel, and then watching aghast as you enter "exhibit A" -- the source code -- into the trial and the public record. If it successfully decrypts their stuff, it proves that what you said is true. It also goes all over the internet within about twenty minutes. Bear in mind that these people are not dealing from a position of strength, as long as their crypto is actually broken. The only evidence you need is precisely the evidence they don't want on the public record. And if it's produced for the first time in your own defense, in a court of law, I don't think they can press criminal charges on you for producing it. Bear From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 28 06:22:35 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:22:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Repeal the 1870 corporation law that created this nightmare. On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Aimee Farr wrote: > In RE to the DMCA/Dmitry affair, private enforcement, new intellectual > property enforcement divisions, etc. -- > > We are increasingly holding individuals criminally responsible for crimes > against corporations and many feel an imbalance, or even a double-standard, > in terms of corporate accountability for crimes against people. > > I received the following today, by Robert Weissman, co-author of _Corporate > Predators_, (corporatepredators.org) in regard to the Sara Lee Ball Park > Frank Hot Dog incident, in which 21 people died. It prompted them to visit > the White House to inquire as to 'a corporate death penalty.' > > http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2001/000081.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pamela at globalexpresssubmit.com Sat Jul 28 08:25:56 2001 From: pamela at globalexpresssubmit.com (pamela at globalexpresssubmit.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: guaranteed top 30 positions Message-ID: <200107281525.IAA11751@svs46.virtualis.com> => guaranteed top 30 positions in major engines => web site promotion by optimization => url submission service http://www.globalexpresssubmit.com/top30/ http://www.globalexpresssubmit.com/top30/ AOLers CLICK Read the feedback from our clients: "I registered with VERICA!'s promotion service and increased my site hits from maybe 50 to 100 a day to a massive 1,500 a day!" Chris Stevens, USA "I'm faxing you this letter to thank you. As you know when I first found your services I thought I would give your company a go. Well, all I can say is thank you for the excellent service you have given to my company. The hit rate to my site has increased from nothing to over 3,000 hits on some days. The rest of the time I am averaging 2,000 hits a day. Your marketing is first class...." JOHNSON'S LTD, UK ___________________________________________ Your email address will not be distributed to third parties. This is an automated response to your URL submission to our FFA Link Page. If you wish to be removed please reply with the subject "Remove" and you will automatically blocked from future mailings or simply click the email address below and send pamela at globalexpresssubmit.com. To report abuse please send a email to abuse at globalexpresssubmit.com From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Jul 28 06:32:40 2001 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:32:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: <200107261828.OAA13251@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Steve Thompson wrote: > How strange. It's always individuals working within a corporation who should > be culpable for offences committed as a result of its business practices. > Will this not have the effect of divorcing personal responsibility further > from the executive and employees of a company? > > Furthermore, might not the `death' of a company in some cases penalise other > companies which depend on the products or services of the `offender' leading > to a reluctance to prosecute the largest and arguably the worst criminals? > > At least when the responsible individuals are prosecuted, there is an > opportunity to `clean house' and reform the offending institution, as it > were. The only way to 'clean house' is to remove humans from the equation, not reasonable. What happens instead is that the business practice of the business changes so the previous chain of evidence is destroyed in a timely fashion or else doesn't exist. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jul 28 06:34:10 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:34:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Corporate totalitarianism? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726133647.040499b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: > Would holding both the corporation and its executives libel for the same > crime constitute a form of double jeopardy ;-) Drawing the distinction in the first place is schizophrenic. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jul 28 08:57:33 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:57:33 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010727173202.00893ab0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010728085733.008985a0@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:08 AM 7/28/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > >>>You can create an executable, with source code, package it up and >>>send it to the copyright owner with a note that says "your protection >>>is broken: here's the proof." >> >>How about dropping them a note to send an engineer to DefCon? > >Not a problem -- as long as what you're making available to the >public at DefCon is not a program that script kiddies can download >and use to break stuff. What's a 'program' in the above sentence? Is source a program? Source without the main() and #includes? Source with an intentionally missing ';'? Precise english description of an algorithm? Math? What exactly are the limits of a 'script kiddie'? > >>>You can shout at the top of your lungs that their crypto is broken, >>>on all kinds of forums. >> >>Might be libel if not true. > >Oh, yeah, feature them suing you for libel, and then watching aghast >as you enter "exhibit A" -- the source code -- into the trial and the >public record. If it successfully decrypts their stuff, it proves that >what you said is true. It also goes all over the internet within >about twenty minutes. So they get Mr. Judge to seal the docs. >Bear in mind that these people are not dealing from a position of >strength, as long as their crypto is actually broken. Tell that to Dmitri. :-< From wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net Sat Jul 28 08:07:36 2001 From: wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:07:36 -0500 Subject: CDR-admin stuff In-Reply-To: <200107271708.f6RH8ub12448@manifold.algebra.com> References: <20010727093422.A16593@slack.lne.com> <200107271708.f6RH8ub12448@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <20010728100735.A932@rebma.pro-ns.net> I've set mine to 1280000. It had been 12800. I see duplicates from certain people very consistently. I've suspected that they address their mail to multiple CDRs and are getting unique Message-IDs for each, but I've never checked into it. On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:08:56PM -0500, Igor Chudov wrote: > > > i had it set to 128000, changed to 1280000 (1 meg). > > igor > > Eric Murray wrote: > > > > > > I've been seeing some duplicate messages from some of the CDRs. > > > > I suspect that the massive increase in traffic has caused > > one or more CDRs to overflow their procmail msgid cache. > > I have been using formail -D 12800 msgid.cache > > (cache size = 1280). Should we raise that? > > > > Eric > > > > > > - Igor. From wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net Sat Jul 28 08:18:33 2001 From: wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:18:33 -0500 Subject: CDR-admin stuff In-Reply-To: <20010728100735.A932@rebma.pro-ns.net> References: <20010727093422.A16593@slack.lne.com> <200107271708.f6RH8ub12448@manifold.algebra.com> <20010728100735.A932@rebma.pro-ns.net> Message-ID: <20010728101833.B932@rebma.pro-ns.net> And, following up my own post: The next two messages I read were from Eugene Leitl, who is someone that I see duplicates from on every post. His Message-Ids were technically the same, but they are long, and someone's server is splitting them into two lines: Message-Id: Message-Id: I think formail should be concatenating the lines before making the check, but I see that it has a -c option that may help. -Bill On Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 10:07:36AM -0500, Bill O'Hanlon wrote: > > > I've set mine to 1280000. It had been 12800. > > I see duplicates from certain people very consistently. I've > suspected that they address their mail to multiple CDRs and are > getting unique Message-IDs for each, but I've never checked into > it. > > > On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:08:56PM -0500, Igor Chudov wrote: > > > > > > i had it set to 128000, changed to 1280000 (1 meg). > > > > igor > > > > Eric Murray wrote: > > > > > > > > > I've been seeing some duplicate messages from some of the CDRs. > > > > > > I suspect that the massive increase in traffic has caused > > > one or more CDRs to overflow their procmail msgid cache. > > > I have been using formail -D 12800 msgid.cache > > > (cache size = 1280). Should we raise that? > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > - Igor. From decoy at iki.fi Sat Jul 28 01:58:33 2001 From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:58:33 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010727113410.0447fec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Steve Schear wrote: >>You could triangulate ultrabroadband with an antenna array, but in real >>life the reflexion and multipath will make it difficult. > >In particular see : >http://www.aetherwire.com/Aether_Wire/Integrated_CMOS_Ultra-Wideband_Localizers.pdf True, but even that application requires cooperation on behalf of the sender -- like most such architectures, it uses sliding correlation and agreed upon pseudorandom sequences to get a considerable process gain in the detection stage. Asynch UWB pulses should be considerably more difficult to deal with, although I don't think that multipath will be the reason: UWB pulses are time-localized enough to make direct separation of the directly propagated one from the echoes feasible. Rather I'd think that the asynchrony and the low power requirements for short-range hops would make remote detection troublesome. Still, I'm more a fan of direct sequence spread-spectrum. How easy is it to detect and/or triangulate that when the spreading sequence is not known, is secure, and we can assume the widest bandwidths to date achieved for DSSS? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy at iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Jul 28 12:10:22 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:10:22 -0700 Subject: Character Assassination Politics: www.torricellideathwatch.com Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010728120931.032c21e0@idiom.com> >Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: "Stephen T. Middlebrook" >Subject: www.torricellideathwatch.com >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >Republican "pranksters" have put up a www.torricellideathwatch.com web site >letting readers predict the day Sen. Torricelli will be indicted. The prizes >look pretty good. > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41269-2001Jun24.html > >Gee, if the Barney parody site is cybersquatting, what's this? > >stm > > >********************************************************************** >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com >********************************************************************** From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 28 12:20:21 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:20:21 -0700 Subject: Possible Internet Split (plan D) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B62AE05.15771.37C5FA1@localhost> -- On 26 Jul 2001, at 13:54, Ray Dillinger wrote: > The problem with Plan D, if implemented over the current Internet, > is that the low levels of the internet are a tree rather than a > proper network. There are choke points and listening points at > which all of a particular person's traffic can be guaranteed to > be intercepted. That is true of the typical home connection. It certainly is not true of many of the networks I have access to. To crack down on the internet, the government has to construct a mapping from packets to true names. In general that is hard, even though it is easily doable for lots of packets and lots of true names. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG RLqtJ72UcIIsUjZOwHNOsz/YzK+IpZPk8CuF2Jti 4ePgVwggx855XmBvPnEuSTEGX+J9Etf0m+xAq4qLa From amaha at vsnl.net Sat Jul 28 10:31:59 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:31:59 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107281731.f6SHVwq21889@ak47.algebra.com> Decision making has five distinct phases: Defining the problem Analysing the problem Developing alternate solutions Deciding upon the best solution Converting the decision into effective action --Peter F.Drucker ====================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 28 13:20:30 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:20:30 -0700 Subject: Attention CipherSaber Users!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B62BC1E.18015.3B36DE1@localhost> -- On 27 Jul 2001, at 11:33, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > A draft paper by Scott Fluhrer, Itsik Mantin and Adi Shamir was > released on July 25, 2001 and announces new attacks on the RC4 cipher > that is the basis for CipherSaber-1. Some of these attacks > specifically involve the use of an IV with a secret key, the very > scheme used in CipherSaber. Prof. Shamir states in an e-mail > accompanying the release: If I understand the paper http://www.eyetap.org/~rguerra/toronto2001/rc4_ksaproc.pdf correctly, Cybersabre and WEP would be fixed if instead of making the RC4 initialization by concatenating a permanent and unchanging secret key, and an ever changing visible random value, they instead constructed the RC4 key by doing several different SHA hashes of the unchanging secret key, and the ever changing visible random value, and concatenated those hashes, and also discarded some substantial number of initial bytes from the RC4 output. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG xXgj5w0VTwI81xCh6amG5KOaB6nNDXD/mS2s7VXR 4vvEsQrjo5uE2RHZQa/1atZPduIFyneZNWgzOS40c --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 28 13:20:30 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:20:30 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: References: <3B60A433.13725.169FA19@localhost> Message-ID: <3B62BC1E.13837.3B36DD7@localhost> -- On 27 Jul 2001, at 8:26, Ray Dillinger wrote: > This guy holding up the fire extinguisher two handed, on the other > hand, looks like he was intent on using it for a battering ram -- > to push in someone's face with it or something. There is a photograph of the fire extinguisher flying through the air at slightly above the level of the window of the police car. Looks to me as if it was intended to go through the rear window, but is in fact about to bounce off the upper edge of the rear window. I interpret this as a photograph of a previous throw from longer range, though one poster has claimed it reflects the fire extinguisher flying OUT of the police car. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG ckoZYS4R5Mj+swwHPvwEN/QzQK7HXXjSj5/ZFOp8 4TQIqT1Gm/H7HMvVY53JamctRbOyCOp5nNPtAQpdH From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 10:29:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:29:41 -0400 Subject: FC: FBI gets cash to spend on anti-encryption, broadband snooping Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,45632,00.html According to the report accompanying a spending bill that's awaiting a floor vote in the Senate: * The FBI will receive an extra $7 million for technology to thwart encryption. The appropriations committee intends for it to be spent on: "(1) analysis/exploitation of systems to allow access to data pre-encryption, (2) recognition/decryption of data hidden in plain sight, and (3) decryption of encrypted data." * Another $7 million goes to a plan to improve "intercept capabilities." The fed-speak for this is "developing broadband capabilities, and procuring prototypes capable of intercepting transmissions outside of the FBI's technical reach." Translation: Create better ways to eavesdrop on cable modems and DSL connections. * Antitrust enforcement gets a boost. The division, best known recently for its dogged pursuit of Microsoft, receives $3.6 million extra, but $10 million less than the Bush administration requested. The committee predicts a slew of mergers because of "the collapse of high technology stocks, and the resultant downward pressure on all stock prices." * Las Vegas, St. Louis, Charleston and Kansas City will split $6 million earmarked for gun surveillance technology. The plan is to spend it on acoustic sensors scattered around downtown areas so the location of a gunshot can be triangulated and located. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From gnu at toad.com Sat Jul 28 13:34:00 2001 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:34:00 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010728020002.31010.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <200107282034.NAA18518@toad.com> > Much of the hysteria regarding the DMCA's supposed ability to quash free > speech by cryptographic researchers is being whipped up by opponents > to the DMCA who are misrepresenting the DMCA in a calculated fashion in > order to promote opposition. The anonymous poster's legal analysis was not particularly novel. It states that the "exemptions" in the DMCA actually cover the things that they were supposedly intended to cover. That would be a refreshing change if it were true, but the law is full of weasel words and exemptions to the exemptions. Only accredited researchers, not cypherpunks, can do research, for example. And you're only exempt if you tell the company first, so they know to sue you before you do the research, rather than after the results are leaking out to the public. Neither my opinion nor the poster's opinion controls, though. What matters is what the judges will say, and how expensive it is to ordinary researchers to find out. In the 2600 case, what the judge said is that even if Jon Johansen might have been able to reverse- engineer DVD players under an exemption (an issue that he didn't decide), 2600 Magazine was unable, under the statute, to publish even *A LINK* to Jon's results. The judge swept aside all the clauses like: > 1201(c)(4): > Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of > free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, > telecommunications, or computing products. > > Clearly publication of cryptographic results is a fundamental part of > free speech and will not be infringed by the DMCA. The other side argued in the 2600 appeal that this was a standard "savings clause" inserted in the legislation and was not intended to mean anything. It goes like this: either the law is constitutional or it isn't. If it is constitutional, this clause is inoperative, since clearly those Constitutional rights weren't diminished. If the law violates the Constitution, then the Constitution, not the statute, controls what rights the public has; again this clause doesn't. The judge agreed with the government and Hollywood that it was clearly put in there to "buy off" some opponents of the DMCA and didn't have any legal effect. The only minor issue is that THOSE SUCKERS ACTUALLY BELIEVED IT, dropped their opposition, and let the DMCA become law. But that wasn't the judge's problem -- only the defendant's. > In fact the RIAA takes that same position now, as seen in > http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/Felten_v_RIAA/20010606_riaa_statement.html. Because the Felten case so clearly shows what's wrong with the DMCA, RIAA is desparately trying to convince the court that it need not, indeed cannot, make any decision in the Felten case. Therefore SDMI/RIAA is lying to the public and the court by saying that it never, *ever*, intended to sue or threaten. It was merely informing people about their rights, you see. They have moved to dismiss the case on the grounds that "we agree with the other side's legal analysis, so there's no issue for a court to decide." They only agree long enough to get out of that courtroom, then they'll find some way to be disagreeable again. The judge will decide whether to believe them or not; the papers are still being filed about that. > Princeton Professor Edward Felten and his research team were prevented > from presenting their results regarding flaws in SDMI at the Information > Hiding Workshop, based on a letter from the Recording Industry Association > of America which claimed that such publication would violate the DMCA. > In this case, the RIAA was mistaken about the application of the DMCA, > as the above analysis makes clear. Their mistakenness didn't prevent the RIAA from sending legal threats to every author of the Felten paper, every member of the conference committee that had decided to publish it, AND ALL OF THEIR BOSSES (one of whom, a US Navy commander, shamefully abandoned the soldier-under- fire who was reporting to him). It didn't prevent Adobe from getting its competitor Elcomsoft kicked off of four different spineless ISPs, by sending lawyer letters alleging copyright infringement TO THE ISP, when there was no copyright infringement going on. Mistakes in analysis, reconsidered a week later by Adobe, didn't prevent a US Attorney's office from bringing charges against Dmitry. Attorney General Ashcroft just announced that they're setting up a dozen more similar computer-and-copyright-prosecution task forces around the country -- none of which will have any practical experience with the DMCA yet. Their mistakes are your problem, not their problem, until YOU sue THEM. Will everyone in the infrastructure on whom you depend be as strong as you are in protecting your rights? After you lose your job, your Internet access, and your freedom of motion, because your scientific work threatened some lawyer-infested company's business model, if you have lots of spare money or raise lots of money somehow, you can have your day in court, "as the above analysis makes clear". And then maybe your judge will agree with the 2600 judge, or maybe he'll agree with the anonymous poster. Maybe the anonymous poster IS Judge Kaplan and he's changed his mind. I'll see you in court. John PS: EFF won't be able to take every case that comes along. The community's donations to EFF have been gratifying, useful, indeed essential. But there is far more money going into rabid company lawyers than is going into EFF or anywhere else for DMCA legal defense. It's classic public choice economics -- the benefit of the DMCA is concentrated in big profits to small numbers of companies, while the harm of the DMCA is spread widely through society. The companies will spend a lot to get those profits, while relatively few people will want to spend much to defend against them. EFF will have to pick which cases to focus on: ones where we can set precedents and get good leverage that will ultimately help the most people. But some people -- I predict many people -- are going to twist in the wind or in prison for years, before the courts or Congress are pushed into fixing the havoc caused by rabid copyright maximalists. So what if it decimates our profession? We're a tiny minority of society, and we don't bribe any legislators. They'll only notice that we matter after we're gone, when their security infrastructures fall to bits. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From janieh66 at msn.com Sat Jul 28 12:47:36 2001 From: janieh66 at msn.com (XANTHE HASTINGS) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:47:36 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: How honest are you? Xanthe J. HastingsGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 263 bytes Desc: not available URL: From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Jul 28 14:02:11 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 14:02:11 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence References: <3B60A433.13725.169FA19@localhost> <3B62BC1E.13837.3B36DD7@localhost> Message-ID: <001701c117a8$92c197f0$d2972040@thinkpad574> Cite to the photo please? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ray Dillinger" Cc: Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence > -- > On 27 Jul 2001, at 8:26, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > This guy holding up the fire extinguisher two handed, on the other > > hand, looks like he was intent on using it for a battering ram -- > > to push in someone's face with it or something. > > There is a photograph of the fire extinguisher flying through the air at slightly above the level of the window of the police car. Looks to me as if it was intended to go through the rear window, but is in fact about to bounce off the upper edge of the rear window. I interpret this as a > photograph of a previous throw from longer range, though one poster has claimed it reflects the fire extinguisher flying OUT of the police car. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > ckoZYS4R5Mj+swwHPvwEN/QzQK7HXXjSj5/ZFOp8 > 4TQIqT1Gm/H7HMvVY53JamctRbOyCOp5nNPtAQpdH > From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 12:32:56 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:32:56 -0400 Subject: FBI gets cash to spend on anti-encryption, broadband snooping Message-ID: <20010728153256.A14221@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 12:42:05 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:42:05 -0400 Subject: Congress is more than doubling number of federal copyright cops Message-ID: <20010728154205.C14221@cluebot.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,45608,00.html Congress Covets Copyright Cops By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. July 28, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- If you've ever contemplated violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, be warned: Congress is set to more than double the number of federal copyright cops. A draft of next year's budget includes plans to hire far more Justice Department attorneys and FBI agents who are charged with placing more pirates in prison. This comes one week after Attorney General John Ashcroft spoke in Mountain View, California, about the threat of online piracy. In the same week, geek protesters demanded the release of Dmitry Sklyarov, a Russian programmer arrested on felony copyright charges. That's exactly what should be happening, according to a Senate committee report. In an apparent reference to the prosecution, it says: "The committee is aware that the FBI has launched an initiative to investigate violations of federal copyright laws protecting certain marketed software applications. The committee supports FBI efforts..." The Senate has earmarked $10 million for copyright prosecutions, enough money for 155 agents and attorneys in the fiscal year starting in October. That's up from a current $4 million allocated for 75 positions. Copyright holders, who applauded the prosecution of Sklyarov on charges of violating the controversial DMCA, said they hoped the additional cash will put more DMCA pirates and copyright thieves behind bars. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Jul 28 17:21:16 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:21:16 -0700 Subject: FBI Scarfs up Scarfo's PGP passphrase, Federal Court Case Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010728171526.032cd350@idiom.com> The article's somewhat long, and has quotes by David Sobel of EPIC and various Feds. The Feds didn't have a wiretap warrant, only a search warrant, and black-bagged Scarfo's computer. "Armed only with a search warrant, the FBI broke into Scarfo's business and put either a program on his computer or an electronic bug in his keyboard - officials will not say which - and recorded everything typed by the son of the jailed former boss of the Philadelphia mob." >Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:51:46 -0500 >Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications >From: Robert Helmer >Subject: FBI Surveillance of Computer Use > >"By bugging a keyboard or using special software, FBI agents can >remotely capture a computer user's every keystroke. > >"With a black box, they can intercept e-mail from miles away. > >"In a van parked outside, they secretly can recreate the pictures on a >computer screen from its electromagnetic energy. > >"The legal limits for these new investigative tools will get a test >Monday when a federal court in New Jersey examines an allegedly >mob-related case in which agents, without a wiretap order, recorded a >suspect's computer keystrokes. > >"Privacy experts are watching the case of Nicodemo S. Scarfo Jr. with >great interest because it could bring major changes to investigative >tactics in the online age." > > http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,303859-412,00.shtml > >Bob Helmer >Webmaster >Daily Rotation >http://www.dailyrotation.com >Shell Extension City >http://www.shellcity.net >St. Louis, Missouri > > >********************************************************************** >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com >********************************************************************** From xeni at xeni.net Sat Jul 28 17:33:14 2001 From: xeni at xeni.net (Xeni Jardin) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:33:14 -0700 Subject: subscribe cypherpunks Message-ID: subscribe cypherpunks xeni at xeni.net From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Jul 28 17:38:51 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:38:51 -0700 Subject: Tampa using cameras to scan for wanted faces-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010728173808.02f429f0@idiom.com> At 09:43 AM 07/06/2001 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > > >One of the interesting things is that _ear shape_ is one of the best > > >correlation features. > > > > Hmmm... > > Maybe it's time to market a line of Privacy Ear Jewelry. > > Shouldn't be hard with a couple piercing here, and some funny lumps > > there to distort the profile enough. > > >Or just return to 70's hair styles. Some of y'all still have enough hair to do that :-) From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 28 19:31:08 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <200107282034.NAA18518@toad.com> Message-ID: <20010729023108.19968.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> >get good leverage that will ultimately help the most people. But some >people -- I predict many people -- are going to twist in the wind or >in prison for years, before the courts or Congress are pushed into >fixing the havoc caused by rabid copyright maximalists. So what if it It was never and never will be in the interest of the government and its concessionees to have crypto-educated general public (EU commission called for more crypto solely because they were pissed off that US agencies can snoop EU subjects better than EU agencies themselves - this is a temporary aberration). There is no money to "push courts or Congress". Unlike alcohol Prohibition bad crypto is much harder to explain - do not expect mass rallies. Those 80 in San Jose and maybe another hundred or two worldwide is the total number. If the logic of late sixties still holds, few hundred protesters is far below the Congress influence threshold. >decimates our profession? We're a tiny minority of society, and we >don't bribe any legislators. They'll only notice that we matter after >we're gone, when their security infrastructures fall to bits. It seems to me that the thesis about the *value* of cypherpunks' enhancement of security by breaking weak solutions needs to be qualified. Those advances (so far) tend to help "general public" realise what the state of security is (GSM, 802.11, DeCSS, Deep Crack, eBook) and tend to hurt corporations and government. This charity service *costs* those two a lot - real money is lost because of it. Replacement of 56-bit DES costs tons of cash and fucks up echelonning. I wouldn't hold my breath for "courts or Congress" to appreciate it. This should stay a pure thought-crime and freedom of speech issue. Maybe we should engage in "Fahrenheit 451"-like solutions: memorizing banned code and saying it aloud. A simple program that adds redundancy to C so that spoken version can be correctly transliterated into the working code would do. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jul 28 19:50:48 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:50:48 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defence In-Reply-To: <001701c117a8$92c197f0$d2972040@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B631798.18367.518C44B@localhost> -- On 27 Jul 2001, at 8:26, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > This guy holding up the fire extinguisher two handed, on > > > the other hand, looks like he was intent on using it for a > > > battering ram -- to push in someone's face with it or > > > something. James A. Donald: > > There is a photograph of the fire extinguisher flying through > > the air at slightly above the level of the window of the > > police car. Looks to me as if it was intended to go through > > the rear window, but is in fact about to bounce off the upper > > edge of the rear window. I interpret this as a photograph of > > a previous throw from longer range, though one poster has > > claimed it reflects the fire extinguisher flying OUT of the > > police car. On 28 Jul 2001, at 14:02, Black Unicorn wrote: > Cite to the photo please? http://www.ballhausplatz.at/genua.htm --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG DQAI7wHPPTS3z1c83acoWE4SNB9/B7KNA/BH5R5 4HKiDZjqXDVtSBbRm7qA9d8apsdQoQ+TaTxxCYqCf From mail0721 at 1chn.com Sat Jul 28 20:09:30 2001 From: mail0721 at 1chn.com (Alice) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:09:30 Subject: CONGRATULATIONS !!! YOU WON !! Message-ID: <200107282332.SAA00692@einstein.ssz.com> YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.1chn.com/dhs/ The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? One that WILL bring steady, dependable monthly checks EVERY month and in the shortest amount of time ?? 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DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.1chn.com/dhs/ --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0721 at 1chn.com?subject=Please_Remove From mail0721 at 1chn.com Sat Jul 28 20:09:30 2001 From: mail0721 at 1chn.com (Alice) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:09:30 Subject: CONGRATULATIONS !!! YOU WON !! Message-ID: <200107281411.HAA13179@toad.com> YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!! CHECK IT OUT! http://www.1chn.com/dhs/ The Fastest Way To Earn $2000+ EVERY Month Online !!! Looking for a secure and legitimate online home business? One that WILL bring steady, dependable monthly checks EVERY month and in the shortest amount of time ?? We can share with you a way to earn $1000's per month on the Internet and receive GUARANTEED monthly checks that will continue to grow. No Hype Here ! - We Can PROVE It !! Free To Join - Means Instant Growth ! Can YOU give away FREE memberships? Most Certainly !! All day long in fact, AND earn an explosive income in doing so ! No pre-launch here! Four year old company with proven system - that works !! Making money on the Internet has never been EASIER ! Join Free and get your own free web site where you can watch your downline grow before your eyes !! Check it daily then you decide !! See why thousands of people from all over the world are joining - FREE ! Lock in Your Position Today and we'll also give you promotional software that will increase traffic to ANY web site !! See for Yourself ! Grab your ID Here ! DON"T MISS OUT !! http://www.1chn.com/dhs/ --------------------------------------------------------- This is a one time mailing and you will not be contacted again and though it is not necessary to request removal, you may do so by sending an email to: mailto:mail0721 at 1chn.com?subject=Please_Remove From Smart_Oherein at prontomail.com Sat Jul 28 13:11:05 2001 From: Smart_Oherein at prontomail.com (Daniel Oherein) Date: 28 Jul 2001 20:11:05 -0000 Subject: eBook Review: We PAY YOU US$5 - U$187.5/per review Message-ID: <20010728201105.18339.qmail@web26.iuinc.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7738 bytes Desc: not available URL: From onebraveone at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 20:38:49 2001 From: onebraveone at hotmail.com (dixie) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:38:49 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107290034.TAA01733@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Friend, The following is Part I of a two part program sent to me. This new program will cost you NOTHING to join!! We will be using the same multi-level principles as the $5 program, but you will not have to send $5 to anyone. In fact, we'll be using as a vehicle a company already in existence which pays you $2 to sign up! You have the potential to make a $16,000 easily and legally, using the compensation plan of an already existing internet company. The program has been divided into two parts so as to minimize the risk of damage due to spam (did I mention don't spam?? :)). Email me immediately that you're interested and I will send you Part II which contains the real meat of the program. My friend from my upline warns it will be to your best advantage if you join immediately because this new company will take off fast! I am REALLY excited about this one!! I hope to hear from you soon! Dixie The program introduction and instructions start below the line: _____________________________________________________ ___________________________ BEGINNING NOTE: Save a copy of this email because you will use it later on when you join the program. *********************************************************** ***THIS IS PART I OF OUR 2-PART PROGRAM*** *********************************************************** Introducing... "THE MOTHER OF ALL FREE AFFILIATE $$$ MAKING IDEAS!" "Chain Letter" type programs have a BAD REPUTATION! They break down for several reasons, but the primary one is the fear of being "ripped off" when you are asked to send money to total strangers. Also, a secondary fear...you might just be doing something illegal or unethical. And lastly, just one spamming entrant to a list will cause ALL accounts on the list to be cancelled by their respective service providers. Consequently, the program runs of all participants on the list are aborted...stopped dead on their tracks! Thus you will hear the most common snide remark against chain- letter programs: "I tried it...but it NEVER worked!" Our answer to the first 2 concerns is in the cost of the program... ************************************ Make it ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! ************************************ *~ NO Sign-up Fees! *~ NO Postage and Handling Fees! *~ NO Backorders of Delivery Delays! *~ NO Meetings! *~ NO "Now you have to Upgrade to make your $$$!" *~ NO One loses one cent! Because it is FREE, it is legal, moral and ethical. As for the last concern, the present program now contains... ***************************************** BUILT-IN SECURITY MEASURES ***************************************** BONUS!!! Participation in the program will generate for you 3 safe lists corresponding to 3 different levels in the program. MORE BONUS!!! Get 4 FREE SOFTWARE PROGRAMS that you can use for this program. OK! Send me Part II so that I will know how to... **************************************** GET $16,000 in just a few weeks!!! **************************************** TO JOIN THE PROGRAM, JUST REPLY TO THIS EMAIL with the subject "I AM JOINING". (When replying, it is required that you quote the entire text of this email. Set your email client's "Reply Setting" to automatically quote the original message. Then just click the"reply" button, change the subject to "I AM JOINING" and finally click the "send" button.) TRY IT... You have NOTHING to lose, and a LOT of money to gain. IMPORTANT: This is a private downline club. As a condition for participation, each participant must agree to the conditions set forth in the Pledge of Honor below. PLEDGE OF HONOR By replying to this email, I do hereby make known to one and all that: --- I am joining the program voluntarily; --- I will do the program responsibly; --- I will not reveal the contents of Part II of this program to anyone unless he/she has first read Part I and consents to the conditions set forth in this Pledge of Honor; --- I will not engage in spam or do anything that will harm the program or my fellow participants in the program. May you be blessed with peace, joy, prosperity, happiness and good health! From onebraveone at hotmail.com Sat Jul 28 20:38:50 2001 From: onebraveone at hotmail.com (dixie) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:38:50 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107290034.TAA01737@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Friend, The following is Part I of a two part program sent to me. This new program will cost you NOTHING to join!! We will be using the same multi-level principles as the $5 program, but you will not have to send $5 to anyone. In fact, we'll be using as a vehicle a company already in existence which pays you $2 to sign up! You have the potential to make a $16,000 easily and legally, using the compensation plan of an already existing internet company. The program has been divided into two parts so as to minimize the risk of damage due to spam (did I mention don't spam?? :)). Email me immediately that you're interested and I will send you Part II which contains the real meat of the program. My friend from my upline warns it will be to your best advantage if you join immediately because this new company will take off fast! I am REALLY excited about this one!! I hope to hear from you soon! Dixie The program introduction and instructions start below the line: _____________________________________________________ ___________________________ BEGINNING NOTE: Save a copy of this email because you will use it later on when you join the program. *********************************************************** ***THIS IS PART I OF OUR 2-PART PROGRAM*** *********************************************************** Introducing... "THE MOTHER OF ALL FREE AFFILIATE $$$ MAKING IDEAS!" "Chain Letter" type programs have a BAD REPUTATION! They break down for several reasons, but the primary one is the fear of being "ripped off" when you are asked to send money to total strangers. Also, a secondary fear...you might just be doing something illegal or unethical. And lastly, just one spamming entrant to a list will cause ALL accounts on the list to be cancelled by their respective service providers. Consequently, the program runs of all participants on the list are aborted...stopped dead on their tracks! Thus you will hear the most common snide remark against chain- letter programs: "I tried it...but it NEVER worked!" Our answer to the first 2 concerns is in the cost of the program... ************************************ Make it ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! ************************************ *~ NO Sign-up Fees! *~ NO Postage and Handling Fees! *~ NO Backorders of Delivery Delays! *~ NO Meetings! *~ NO "Now you have to Upgrade to make your $$$!" *~ NO One loses one cent! Because it is FREE, it is legal, moral and ethical. As for the last concern, the present program now contains... ***************************************** BUILT-IN SECURITY MEASURES ***************************************** BONUS!!! Participation in the program will generate for you 3 safe lists corresponding to 3 different levels in the program. MORE BONUS!!! Get 4 FREE SOFTWARE PROGRAMS that you can use for this program. OK! Send me Part II so that I will know how to... **************************************** GET $16,000 in just a few weeks!!! **************************************** TO JOIN THE PROGRAM, JUST REPLY TO THIS EMAIL with the subject "I AM JOINING". (When replying, it is required that you quote the entire text of this email. Set your email client's "Reply Setting" to automatically quote the original message. Then just click the"reply" button, change the subject to "I AM JOINING" and finally click the "send" button.) TRY IT... You have NOTHING to lose, and a LOT of money to gain. IMPORTANT: This is a private downline club. As a condition for participation, each participant must agree to the conditions set forth in the Pledge of Honor below. PLEDGE OF HONOR By replying to this email, I do hereby make known to one and all that: --- I am joining the program voluntarily; --- I will do the program responsibly; --- I will not reveal the contents of Part II of this program to anyone unless he/she has first read Part I and consents to the conditions set forth in this Pledge of Honor; --- I will not engage in spam or do anything that will harm the program or my fellow participants in the program. May you be blessed with peace, joy, prosperity, happiness and good health! From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 17:51:49 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:51:49 -0400 Subject: FC: U.K. anti-terrorism law imperils hackers, privacy, property Message-ID: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/07/28/2336239&mode=nested U.K. Anti-Terrorism Law Imperils Hackers, Privacy posted by cicero on Saturday July 28, @06:34PM from the how-nice-that-hackers-are-covered-too dept. A U.K. law that took effect this year gives police far-ranging powers to make warrantless arrests, enter buildings without court orders, and punish people for having information that could be useful to terrorists. The measure, called the Terrorism Act of 2000, received royal assent in July 2000. It became law in February 2001. Parliament, after lengthy debate, defined "terrorism" as any threat to influence any government (U.K. or other) or group "for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause." Actions that are punishable include those that threaten or carry out "serious damage to property," endanger public safety, or are are "designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system." If you think that covers hackers, well, you're right. And it's no accident. A ZDNET article reports that: "Computer hackers could be classed as terrorists under a U.K. law." So does this Register writeup. An IDG article in February confirmed that the Home Office plans to prosecute hackers under the Terrorism Act. Unfortunately, the reporter never mentioned some of the more disturbing aspects of the law. It allows police to randomly stop people on streets, who are then required to give their names (so much for anonymity) or go to prison. Cops can seize any cash that they believe "is intended to be used for the purposes of terrorism," with no court authorization required. Gone is the traditional burden of proof: Judges are required to assume that contraband in the same building as the accused is owned by the accused "unless he proves that he did not know of its presence on the premises or that he had no control over it." Perhaps the most fascinating section restricts even owning information that could be useful to "a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism." If hackers are terrorists, better delete your copy of Back Orifice and bugtraq archives now. This Draconian law can be explained by the uneasy situation in Northern Ireland, which has been marked by recent car bombs and grenade attacks reportedly performed by IRA factions. (The law is, according to the Home Office, designed to be one uniform measure "to replace the existing, separate pieces of temporary legislation for Northern Ireland and Great Britain.") Americans, be warned. Congress is spending more and more time talking about bio-chem, Internet, and nuclear attacks. Soon you could be facing the same invasions of privacy and property. At least the spirit of John Locke isn't completely dead in his native land. "The legislation which gives the authorities extra powers should have to be renewed by parliament regularly rather than being permanent legislation. The definition of terrorism is also far too wide, in spite of significant efforts by Liberal Democrats and others in parliament to improve it," Simon Hughes, Liberal Democrat Shadow Home Secretary, said in a statement. The Liberal Democrats are the third largest political party. In a discussion on a U.K. mailing list, Ross Anderson of Cambridge University said that the law was written so broadly that it could imperil his computer security work. Predicted Anderson: "So now we know. We are all terrorists now!" Another list member chimed in: "So interfering with an electronic system in order to advance a political cause seems to me to be covered, or at least it could be argued that it was covered. Is defacing a website 'terrorism?' Or distributing a stupid word macro by email? It looks as if, had the 'love bug' mail message contain a political or religious slogan it could be defined as terrorism by this standard. Below are some excerpts from the law. You can find the complete text at www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/20000011.htm, and a protest site at http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/index.htm. _________________________________________________________________ EXCERPTS FROM TERRORISM ACT: Arrest of suspected terrorists power of entry. 81. A constable may enter and search any premises if he reasonably suspects that a terrorist, within the meaning of section 40(1)(b), is to be found there. Terrorist information. 103. - (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he collects, makes a record of, publishes, communicates or attempts to elicit information about a person to whom this section applies which is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or (b) he possesses a document or record containing information of that kind. Arrest without warrant. 41. - (1) A constable may arrest without a warrant a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist. (2) Where a person is arrested under this section the provisions of Schedule 8 (detention treatment, review and extension) shall apply. Search of persons. 43. - (1) A constable may stop and search a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist to discover whether he has in his possession anything which may constitute evidence that he is a terrorist. Power to stop and search Authorisations. 44. - (1) An authorisation under this subsection authorises any constable in uniform to stop a vehicle in an area or at a place specified in the authorisation and to search [vehicle, driver, passenger, etc.] Possession onus of proof. 77. - (1) This section applies to a trial on indictment for a scheduled offence where the accused is charged with possessing an article in such circumstances as to constitute an offence under any of the enactments listed in subsection (3). (2) If it is proved that the article- (a) was on any premises at the same time as the accused, or (b) was on premises of which the accused was the occupier or which he habitually used otherwise than as a member of the public, the court may assume that the accused possessed (and, if relevant, knowingly possessed) the article, unless he proves that he did not know of its presence on the premises or that he had no control over it. Explosives inspectors. 85. - (1) An explosives inspector may enter and search any premises for the purpose of ascertaining whether any explosive is unlawfully there. (2) The power under subsection (1) may not be exercised in relation to a dwelling. Power of entry. 90. - (1) An officer may enter any premises if he considers it necessary in the course of operations for the preservation of the peace or the maintenance of order. Penalties. 22. A person guilty of an offence under any of sections 15 to 18 shall be liable- (a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, to a fine or to both, or (b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both. Seizure and detention. 25. - (1) An authorised officer may seize and detain any cash to which this section applies if he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that- (a) it is intended to be used for the purposes of terrorism, Weapons training. 54. - (1) A person commits an offence if he provides instruction or training in the making or use of- (a) firearms, (b) explosives, or (c) chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section in relation to instruction or training to prove that his action or involvement was wholly for a purpose other than assisting, preparing for or participating in terrorism. Collection of information. 58. - (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or (b) he possesses a document or record containing information of that kind. (2) In this section "record" includes a photographic or electronic record. (3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had a reasonable excuse for his action or possession. Power to stop and question. 89. - (1) An officer may stop a person for so long as is necessary to question him to ascertain- (a) his identity and movements; (b) what he knows about a recent explosion or another recent incident endangering life; (c) what he knows about a person killed or injured in a recent explosion or incident. (2) A person commits an offence if he- (a) fails to stop when required to do so under this section, (b) refuses to answer a question addressed to him under this section, or (c) fails to answer to the best of his knowledge and ability a question addressed to him under this section. (3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale. (4) In this section "officer" means- (a) a member of Her Majesty's forces on duty, or (b) a constable. ### ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 17:58:17 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:58:17 -0400 Subject: U.K. anti-terrorism law imperils hackers, privacy, property Message-ID: <20010728205816.A20465@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From joesz at beer.com Sat Jul 28 21:42:48 2001 From: joesz at beer.com (joesz) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:42:48 Subject: Best #1 Money on the Internet Message-ID: <200107290250.VAA03369@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: YOU REALLY OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO LOOK AT THIS!! AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !! Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO. Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything .'' More testimonials later but first, *** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE *** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5.00 U.S CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports from the person whose name is next to the REPORT. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. ****.IMPORTANT -DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. Move the name & address in REPORT #4down TO REPORT #5. Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4. Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3. Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2 Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names (with your name now in position #1, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 REPORTS you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING TARGETED BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only targeted 5,000 e-mails each. Targeted email is to persons interested in business opportunities. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million)e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for REPORT # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: $50+ $500+ $5,000 + $50,000+ $500,000.........Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. Study the REPORTS (#1-5) to help with your marketing. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _______________ AVAILABLE REPORTS__________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #1:"The Bulk Email Survival Guide #1 from: JD P.O.Box 1114 Des Plaines, Illinois 60017 U.S.A -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #2: "Inside Secrets To Wealth On The Web #2 from: R. P. P.O. Box 191 St-Calixte, Quebec Canada J0K1Z0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #3:"The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net" Order REPORT #3 from: J Santi 833 Walter Ave Des Plaines, IL 60016 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #4:"How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net" Order REPORT #4 from: Aaron Croft 1037 Charlela Ln. #206 Elk Grove Village, IL 60007 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #5:"HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE" Order REPORT #5 from: Cris Ardeleanu 5571 Dove Trace Norcross, Ga. 30093 USA $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ (A note on mailing to Canada. It's just as easy as to the US. Follow same procedure but use 60 cents postage) Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. DO NOT QUIT, you do not know how close you are to success if you quit, it may be the next mailing. THIS IS YOUR WINNING LOTTERY. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER :Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP Track of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAIL SAND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...........#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! JUST DO IT!!!!!! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS**************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash!I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e- mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to Internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON OUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to: cashmachine at netcourrier.com with the word "REMOVE" in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. --- From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 19:39:50 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:39:50 -0400 Subject: FBI Scarfs up Scarfo's PGP passphrase, Federal Court Case In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010728171526.032cd350@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:21:16PM -0700 References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010728171526.032cd350@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20010728223950.B21154@cluebot.com> The Scarfo case came up last December. Here's the background: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01545.html http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/12/06/0138246 http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40541,00.html http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,33779,00.html -Declan On Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:21:16PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > The article's somewhat long, and has quotes by David Sobel of EPIC > and various Feds. The Feds didn't have a wiretap warrant, > only a search warrant, and black-bagged Scarfo's computer. > > "Armed only with a search warrant, the FBI broke into Scarfo's > business > and put either a program on his computer or an electronic bug in > his keyboard - > officials will not say which - and recorded everything typed by > the son > of the jailed former boss of the Philadelphia mob." > > >Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:51:46 -0500 > >Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications > >From: Robert Helmer > >Subject: FBI Surveillance of Computer Use > > > >"By bugging a keyboard or using special software, FBI agents can > >remotely capture a computer user's every keystroke. > > > >"With a black box, they can intercept e-mail from miles away. > > > >"In a van parked outside, they secretly can recreate the pictures on a > >computer screen from its electromagnetic energy. > > > >"The legal limits for these new investigative tools will get a test > >Monday when a federal court in New Jersey examines an allegedly > >mob-related case in which agents, without a wiretap order, recorded a > >suspect's computer keystrokes. > > > >"Privacy experts are watching the case of Nicodemo S. Scarfo Jr. with > >great interest because it could bring major changes to investigative > >tactics in the online age." > > > > http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,303859-412,00.shtml > > > >Bob Helmer > >Webmaster > >Daily Rotation > >http://www.dailyrotation.com > >Shell Extension City > >http://www.shellcity.net > >St. Louis, Missouri > > > > > >********************************************************************** > >For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia > >Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot > >Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com > >********************************************************************** From remailer at remailer.xganon.com Sat Jul 28 20:52:35 2001 From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:52:35 -0500 Subject: SirCam contribution Message-ID: This is a strings-processed portion of a recent SirCam post on cypherpunks. Note that SS number seems to be embedded in microshit document - is this a standard practice ? ############## Social Security Number: 326-70-5214 Prompt Number 1 Angry Inside and No One Cares If an American has turned on a TV in the last few years, they should have noticed that school shootings are on a rise. A plausible explanation could be that todays youth do not have the ability to release aggression on a day-to-day basis. Children need to have the ability to vent their anger and now see gun related violence as a more spectacular form of violence. When I was young most children exhibited hostility through fighting or watching others fight. Today the punishments for fighting are suspension or expulsion, while in the past the children we forced to complete an activity to waste their time or energy. With the severe pressure to get along children are holding in their aggression more. Most children are able to handle this or let their anger out through sports or active hobbies. Look at the children of two recent shootings. One was a young child who was not involved in sports and was constantly picked on, the other was a four or five member group who were said to be outcasts in their school and were also not involved in sports. In both these cases the youths had active friends, but were not involved in any active activities. Youths are also going through a stage in their life were they need people to pay attention, yet today society is trying to turn children into robots and statistics. Looking at the rule books for a local grade school you would think they are supposed to replace a bible. Children today are even restricted in what games they play, who they talk to, and how to dress. At the same time children are hearing about how to their community they are just numbers. They spend over a month preparing and taking tests so they can show the authority how much they know. Children desire to be involved and paid attention to. A third factor to the rise in school shootings could be that before youths would try to commit acts of extreme violence by suicide, small bombs, or destroying property. Today children see that shootings and gun related violence are a huge media hype events. They feel that by shooting another kid they could gain an extreme amount of attention to themselves or their situation. They know that people will remember their actions. Their horrible acts are more easily recalled then state capitals. Where was the last shooting? What is the capital of Alabama? Society must learn that children will be aggressive. They will release their anger, but it does not have to be in such a spectacular fashion. Parents need to talk to their children and play a ACTIVE role in their life. Society needs to stop treating children as a collective group of autonomous beings, but as a diverse group of individuals. And we as a nation need to show then that yes, we care for you as an individual. 8$45STR 48d`$da$d8 1h/ =!"#$%i8 at 8NormalCJ_HaJmH sH tH At 08:58 PM 7/28/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: . . . Unfortunately, the reporter never mentioned some of the more disturbing aspects of the law. It allows police to randomly stop people on streets, who are then required to give their names (so much for anonymity) or go to prison. Cops can seize any cash that they believe "is intended to be used for the purposes of terrorism," with no court authorization required. Gone is the traditional burden of proof: Judges are required to assume that contraband in the same building as the accused is owned by the accused "unless he proves that he did not know of its presence on the premises or that he had no control over it." Perhaps the most fascinating section restricts even owning information that could be useful to "a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism." If hackers are terrorists, better delete your copy of Back Orifice and bugtraq archives now. Looks like freedom loving people in the U.K. need to start considering just how acceptable the downsides an Initial Political Load of Parliment might be. Same goes for those weasels in D.C. Free, secure Web-based email, now OpenPGP compliant - www.hushmail.com From cyberfiat at yahoo.com Sun Jul 29 01:24:24 2001 From: cyberfiat at yahoo.com (cyberfiat at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 01:24:24 -0700 Subject: Permission to send info on Global Pre-Launch Message-ID: <200107290824.BAA09605@ecotone.toad.com> Hello, Global business opportunity in PRE-LAUNCH right now. Yes, Send Me Info: mailto:global3 at infogeneratorpro.com?subject=yes_more_info Thanks, Mike Gaudin 877-778-8826 ____________________________________________________ Remove Me From List mailto:cyberfiat at yahoo.com?subject=remove_from_list ____________________________________________________ From declan at well.com Sat Jul 28 23:16:03 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 02:16:03 -0400 Subject: Sham FBI conference used as cover for party for Ruby Ridge agent Message-ID: <20010729021603.H21900@cluebot.com> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010726-92356793.htm Washington Times July 26, 2001 Sham FBI conference used as cover for party By Jerry Seper THE WASHINGTON TIMES Senior FBI executives scheduled a sham conference at the bureau's Virginia training academy to allow colleagues to attend at taxpayers' expense a 1997 retirement party for a top FBI official, an internal report shows. While the "Integrity in Law Enforcement" conference was later found to have been cover for senior FBI managers to obtain improper reimbursements for personal travel to Washington, no one was disciplined other than to receive letters of censure. Similar actions by rank-and-file FBI agents would have led to their firing. The report was given last week to Senate investigators looking into recent FBI mismanagement and questions concerning such investigations as the Timothy McVeigh case and the arrest as a spy of agent Robert P. Hanssen. More than 140 persons, including as many as nine FBI executives and special-agents-in-charge (SACs) of bureau field offices, attended the Oct. 9, 1997, party in Arlington for veteran agent Larry A. Potts, while only five persons showed up for the Oct. 10, 1997, conference in Quantico, Va., -- which lasted about 90 minutes, including lunch. Two months before the party, Mr. Potts -- a onetime FBI deputy director -- was under criminal investigation over his questionable handling of a standoff at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, during which three persons died. According to a September 1999 report by the Law Enforcement Ethics Unit (LEEU) at the FBI Academy, an inquiry into the Potts party began Oct. 22, 1997, and focused on whether the Quantico conference was illegally used to justify travel reimbursements to senior agents, who otherwise would have been on personal business. ... From guval at elsitio.com Sat Jul 28 23:56:48 2001 From: guval at elsitio.com (C. Sarabia.) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 02:56:48 -0400 Subject: Tus Creencias determinan lo que lograras Message-ID: <200107290657.f6T6vMq23211@ak47.algebra.com> Estimado Amigo: No permitas que nadie te diga lo contrario. TU PUEDES GANAR DINERO EN INTERNET, SI SABES COMO HACERLO. Tanto si piensa que puede, como si piensa que no puede, de cualquier modo, est獺 en lo cierto. (Henry Ford) Desde este momento, usted, tiene dos opciones, o se molesta a morir por este correo no solicitado, o abre su mente para captar la increible verdad, que el le trae. Tomese su tiempo, pero decida en conciencia, cuanto puede perder si acepta leer este mensaje hasta el final, o cuanto puede ganar si lo que le mostramos es verdad. La verdad es que Ud. esta a punto de conocer una de las oportunidades economicas mas fascinantes y lucrativas que se estan desarrollando actualmente en Internet. "Lo que usted esta a punto de leer los dejara asombrado con su simplicidad y su poder para generar rapidamente una enorme cantidad de dinero para Ud. La carta de ventas que Ud. Lee ahora contiene un completo plan de mercadeo para desarrollar. La simplicidad de este programa es el secreto de su poder lucrativo. Usted no tiene que crear nada, no hay ningun complicado plan de mercadeo que estudiar. No hay que implementar un complicado sistema en l穩nea, para que este programa funcione. Solo tiene que tomar la decision de hacerlo y despues de unos pocos y sencillos pasos, comenzara a recibir el dinero generado por este poderoso sistema. Creame,...realmente funciona. Solo hay que seguir al pie de la letra las indicaciones. Este es un programa de mercadeo generado correctamente, y aplicado una y otra vez, produce los mismos e increibles resultados ... UNA Y OTRA VEZ. S穩, ya s矇, ya s矇... Al igual que a todos nosotros, al principio, nos preocupa la legalidad y la etica del sistema. THE MONEY MAKER PROGRAM, no es una carta en cadena, o un sistema de piramide ilegal. Es un producto informatico, comercializado a traves de la metrodologia del multinivel, utilizando la tecnologia de internet y el correo electronico. Usted no esta pidiendo dinero por nada. No esta especulando con la buena voluntad de las personas,... Usted, esta comercializando 5 valiosos informes comerciales, que puede utilizar para implementar cualquier sistema de comercializacion a traves de Internet. Tan solo siguiendo unas sencillas instrucciones, e invirtiendo solamente $ 25.00 dolares USA, puedes lograr increibles resultados economicos. Un testimonio: "Doy gracias de haber aprovechado esta oportunidad. Anteriormente habia recibido varias veces este mail - pero nunca le habia prestado atencion. Cuando intente saber que sucedia y me acople al emprendimiento invirtiendo $.25.00 y sin esperar demasiado por el esfuerzo que debia hacer - quede asombrado. Ya recibi un total de $.610.470,00 dolares USA en 21 semanas y aun continua llegando dinero... " Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, NJ Otro: " Este programa me habia estado llegando a mi casilla de e-mail durante algun tiempo pero nunca crei en el. Sin embargo un dia me decidi a invertir mis $.25,00 dolares USA. Segui las instrucciones simples y ... 3 semanas mas tarde el correo comenzo a llegar con dinero real. El primer mes solo recibi $.240.00 dolares USA, pero en los siguientes dos meses recibi un total de $.290.000,00 dolares USA y hasta ahora cuando solo han pasado ocho meses desde que realice mis primeros envios he recibido $.710.000,00 dolares USA - estoy ingresando nuevamente. La clave del 矇xito de este programa es seguir los pasos progresivos sin introducir cambios..." John Carper, Los Angeles, CA Mas adelante encontrara otros testimonios, pero ahora le sugiero: IMPRIMA ESTE MAIL PARA SU REFERENCIA EN EL FUTURO - puede cambiar su vida! Si a Vd le gustaria ganar por lo menos $. 500.000,00 dolares USA cada 4/5 meses lea atentamente lo siguiente - y si es necesario: LEALO UNA y OTRA VEZ!!!! SIGA LAS SIMPLES INSTRUCCIONES QUE SE DETALLAN MAS ABAJO Y SUS SUEOS SE HARAN REALIDAD - TOTALMENTE GARANTIZADO!!!!!!!! INSTRUCCIONES: Solicite los CINCO informes que se detallan mas adelante - constituyen la llave de este negocio. Envie $. 5.00 dolares USA por correo - en efectivo [coloque el billete dentro de un papel carbonico y/o envielo como valor declarado, por cada informe solicitado con una nota dirigida a la persona cuyo nombre y datos figuran al lado de cada informe, Indicando: Numero y Nombre del informe que esta solicitando Su direccion de e-mail [por favor clara y legible] Su direccion postal Su nombre Por cualquier problema con el sistema de correos cerciorese de colocar tambien el remitente en la esquina superior izquierda del sobre. Vd necesitara los 5 informes para continuar su negocio - y estos son la parte mas importante del mismo. Los recibira por e-mail de cada una de las personas a las que les envio los $.5.00 dolares USA y debera salvarlos en el disco duro de su PC para luego poder enviarlos a los cientos de personas que despues de 2/3 semanas se los iran pidiendo - cuando Vd comienze a recibir las ordenes con sus $. 5.00 dolares USA. MUY IMPORTANTE: no altere los nombres de las persona que se detallan en cada informe, ni su secuencia en la lista, ni introduzca ninguna variante que quiebre la progresion estipulada - hacerlo solo disminuira sus beneficios futuros. Si Vd comprende como funciona este sistema vera que cualquier alteracion solo disminuira sus ganancias - recuerde, este metodo esta totalmente probado y FUNCIONA - no lo altere, creame que perdera beneficios. Alguna gente ha intentado poner a amigos o familiares en los cinco lugares de la lista pensando que asi obtendrian mas ganancias - sencillamente NO FUNCIONA, las ganancias disminuyen. Si Vd procede honradamente y sigue el programa sus beneficios estan garantizados, entonces NO INTENTE CAMBIAR NADA y RECIBIRA SU RECOMPENSA!!!!! Despues de haber solicitado los 5 informes - tome este e-mail y proceda de la siguiente forma: QUITE el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 5 Esta persona ya ha completado su ciclo en el programa y seguramente esta contando su dinero MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 4 al INFORME # 5 MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 3 al INFORME # 4 MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 2 al INFORME # 3 MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 1 al INFORME # 2 y ahora: INTRODUZCA su nombre y su direccion postal al lado del INFORME#1 Por favor: PRESTE MUCHA ATENCION AL COPIAR NOMBRES Y DIRECCIONES - un error produce un quiebre en el sistema, por lo tanto: COPIE CADA NOMBRE Y DIRECCION CON TOTAL EXACTITUD!!!!!!!! AHORA: una vez que Vd ha modificado la lista con los datos y las direcciones y HA INTRODUCIDO LA SUYA al lado del reporte # 1 - no haga ningun otro cambio!!!!!! GUARDE el mail modificado en su disco rigido - tambien es aconsejable que haga una copia en diskette, por cualquier problema. Los 5 reportes que Vd compra a $. 5,00 dolares USA cada uno seran su producto y le ayudaran con inestimable informacion para la comercializacion a traves de Internet. Los reportes incluyen como enviar e-mail masivos en forma legal, donde encontrar millares de direcciones de todo el mundo, como anunciar en los sitios de avisos clasificados gratuitos y MUCHO MAS!!!! En principio existen dos metodos primarios para comenzar a generar este emprendimiento. METODO # 1: envio de bulk-mail [mails masivos] Pensemos que Vd decide hacer solo un peque簽o esfuerzo, y que posteriormente sus contactos tambien decidan hacer ese peque簽o esfuerzo - enviando solamente 5000 e-mails cada uno - y asumamos que el promedio de respuesta es del 0,2% [SI -solo 2 de cada 1000] En verdad la tasa de respuesta podria ser mucho mejor, pero dejemosla en el 0,2% - aunque quizas mucha gente enviara bastante mas de 5000 e-mails. Continuando con este ejemplo: Vd envia 5000 e-mails y obtiene una tasa de respuesta del 0,2% = 10 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 1 Estas 10 personas tambien envian 5000 e-mails cada uno = 50000 e-mails y en este caso, tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron =100 personas que solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 2 Si las 100 personas solo enviaran 5000 e-mails cada uno = 500000 e- mails y en este caso tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron = 1000 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 3 Si las 1000 personas envian solo 5000 e-mails cada uno = 5000000 e- mails y en este caso tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron = 10000 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 4 Y finalmente: Si las 10000 personas envian solo 5000 e-mails cada uno = 50000000 e- mails y en este caso tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron = 100000 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 5 y le estaran mandando $. 5.00 dolares USA cada una con lo que su renta sera: NADA MENOS QUE: $. 555.550,00 dolares USA LOS NUMEROS NO MIENTEN: tome lapiz y papel y haga la cuenta SI VD CREE QUE LAS TASAS DE RESPUESTA SERAN MUCHO PEORES Y NO VALDRA EL ESFUERZO piense: "MIENTRAS VD LO CONSIDERA IMPOSIBLE MUCHOS ESTAN YA GANANDO DINERO!!!!! Estimado Amigo: Recuerde que estamos hablando de enviar solo 5000 e-mails con una tasa de respuesta tan baja como el 0,2% que produce nada mas que 10 ordenes - ATREVASE a pensar por un momento en que sucederia si cada uno, o la mitad de sus contactos, o tan solo la cuarta parte se decide a enviar 100000 e-mails o mas: Hoy en dia ya hay mas de350 millones de personas conectadas a Internet en todo el mundo... Y el numero crece dia a dia.... METODO # 2: colocando avisos gratuitos en Internet La publicidad en la web es muy barata y existen centenares de lugares GRATUITOS en donde anunciar. La colocacion de avisos gratuitos en la red produce una mayor respuesta y aumenta las posibilidades de lograr tasas de respuesta mayores - por ello le sugerimos que comienze con el METODO # 1 [envio de e-mails masivos - no menos de 5000, o hasta tener 10 ordenes] y luego seguir con el METODO # 2 para incrementar los resultados. Aplique los dos metodos en forma consecutiva y VERA LOS RESULTADOS!!!! Ahora, por cada $. 5.00 dolares USA que Vd recibe debera enviar un e-mail al remitente adjuntando el informe ordenado - hagalo siempre el mismo dia en que recibio la orden y el dinero esto garantizara que quien remite la orden pueda empezar su trabajo en forma inmediata y aumenta la generacion de BENEFICIOS PARA VD!!!!!!! Tenga en cuenta que hasta no recibir los reportes no podra empezar a anunciar y trabajar. IMPORTANTE: Envie siempre los $. 5.00 dolares USA [en billetes americanos] para cada reporte. Cheques no son aceptados. Cerciorese de que el billete este cubierto de por lo menos 2 hojas de papel [si una es carbonico mejor]. En una de las hojas escriba: NUMERO y NOMBRE del informe que esta ordenando SU DIRECCION de E-MAIL SU NOMBRE COMPLETO SU DIRECCION POSTAL Y AHORA: simplemente ordene los reportes: -------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: C. Sarabia. Casilla de Correo N繙 719 Curico Chile No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT # 2 FROM: G.Leone C.Correo N繙 89 - Suc. 028 Buenos Aires [1428] Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: E.Fernandez Quesada 1517 Buenos Aires [1429] Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Maria Tome De la Cruz 488 Lanus [1826] Pcia. Buenos Aires Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #5 "How to send 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Adhelma Fernandez Libertad 138 Martinez [1640] Pcia.Buenos Aires Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TENGA EN CUENTA: hay actualmente mas de 350,000,000 millones de personas en linea en la Web - siga estas lineas de ayuda para GARANTIZAR SU XITO y RECIBIR SU DINERO!!! PROGRAMA PARA EL XITO: Si Vd no recibe por lo menos 10 ordenes para el REPORT # 1 en el plazo de 2 semanas, continue enviando e-mails hasta que tenga al menos esas primeras 10 ordenes. Una vez que haya recibido las 10 ordenes para el REPORT # 1, debera recibir al menos 100 ordenes para el REPORT # 2 en el plazo de las 2/3 semanas posteriores - sugerimos que comienze a publicar avisos en los sitios gratuitos, pero si Vd no recibe al menos 100 ordenes en ese plazo - continue enviando e-mails y colocando anuncios hasta lograr un minimo de 100 ordenes del REPORT # 2. Si logro las 100 ordenes para el REPORT # 2 puede comenzar a relajarse -el sistema ya ha comenzado a trabajar para Vd y el efectivo comenzara a llegar en buena cantidad!!!!!! ES MUY IMPORTANTE RECORDAR: Cada vez que su nombre cambia de posicion en la lista debera enviar un informe diferente - Vd puede medir el progreso de su trabajo viendo que report le estan solicitando - si Vd necesita generar MAS RENTA... solo tiene que seguir enviando mails y anunciando en los sitios gratuitos y comenzar una y otra vez... NO HAY LIMITE: puede seguir haciendolo todo el tiempo que quiera y generar MAS y MAS DINERO!!!! LO QUE SIGUE ES UNA NOTA FINAL DEL INICIADOR DE ESTE PROGRAMA: "Vd acaba de recibir la informaci籀n que le puede brindar la libertad financiera para el resto de su vida, sin RIESGO y APENAS UN POCO DE ESFUERZO. Usted puede hacer m獺s dinero en las semanas y los meses pr籀ximos que lo que alguna vez pudo imaginar. Siga el programa EXACTAMENTE SEGN LO ESTABLECIDO. No lo cambie de ninguna manera. Todo ha sido comprobado una y otra vez y esta funcionando realmente bien tal como Vd lo recibio. Le sugiero imprima una copia de este mail y lo guarde en su disco rigido una vez que usted haya puesto su nombre y direccion en el REPORT # 1 y movi籀 los otros a # 2 - # 5 seg繳n lo estipulado mas arriba. Cualquiera de las personas a las que usted env穩e esto puede decidirse a enviar 100.000 o m獺s E-mails y su nombre estar獺 posiconado en cada uno de ellos. Recuerde sin embargo, que cuantos mas e-mails Vd envia m獺s clientes potenciales generara y cualquiera de ellos puede ser el que envie 100,000 mails o mas. Estimado amigo, le he dado las ideas, la informaci籀n, el producto, los materiales y la oportunidad de llegar a ser financieramente independiente. EL RESTO AHORA ESTA EN USTED! ********************************************************************* MAS TESTIMONIOS: "mi nombre es Mitchell. Mi esposa, Jody y yo vivimos en Chicago, yo soy gerente contable en una importante corporaci籀n de los E.E.U.U. y gano un buen dinero. Cuando recib穩 este programa lo primero que hice fue quejarme y comentarle a Jody sobre la recepci籀n de "correo basura - spam" que inundaba mi casilla de mail. Me causo gracia todo el programa, y echando mano a mi conocimiento de la poblaci籀n y de los porcentajes implicados - " sab穩a que " el programa no funcionariaa. Jody no hizo ningun caso a todos mis argumentosa supuestamente inteligentes y dio los primeros pasos algunos d穩as m獺s adelante. Me diverti sin piedad con ella, y por supuesto estaba listo a decir el viejo " yo te lo dije " cuando la cosa no funcionara. Bien, para mi era todo risa! En el plazo de 3 semanas ella hab穩a recibido 50 respuestas. En el plazo de los 45 d穩as pr籀ximos ella hab穩a recibido a total de $147.200,00 todo en efectivo! Me dio una shock. Ahora trato de asociarme a Jody " Wolf De Mitchell, Chicago, Illinois " no siendo aficionado a este tipo de juego, me tom籀 varias semanas decidirme a participar en este plan. Pero como buen conservador que soy, decidi que la inversi籀n inicial era tan peque簽a que era casi imposible que no consiguiera bastantes 籀rdenes para recuperar por lo menos mi dinero invertido. Quede totalmente sorprendido cuando encontr矇 mi apartado de correos de tama簽o mediano abarrotado con 籀rdenes. Hice $319.210,00 de las primeras 12 semanas. La mejor sobre esto del reparto es que no importa donde vive la gente. No hay simplemente a una inversi籀n con una vuelta m獺s r獺pida y tan grande." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canad獺 Mi testimonio personal: Una carta similar a esta, llego en varias ocasiones a mi email, e invariablemente yo la eliminaba, por que me parecia una estupidez la oferta de hacernos ricos casi sin esfuerzo. Sin embargo, un dia, en que disponia de mucho tiempo estaba tranquilamente revisando mi correo elecronico, y me encuentro nuevamente, con este email, casi por curiosidad, decidi leerla completa, para ver que decia exactamente. Mientras leia, se fueron formando imagenes en mi mente, sobre las posibilidades que se me presentaba, si esto fuera verdad. me imaginaba como seria mi vida, si lograba obtener los ingresos que el email ofrecia, so簽e por algunos minutos, con las cosas que lograria. Finalmente decidi imprimirla, para volver a leerla. Durante varios dias, la leia, y releia, en mis ratos libres, y en las noches antes de dormirme. Finalmente tome la desicion, de invertir los U$ 25.00, y solicite los 5 informes. Que podia perder. No es una gran cantidad de dinero. Yo conocia claramente la potencia del marketing de multinivel. El dinero lo recibiria directamente en mi correo, sin intermediarios. No tenia que pagar ningun cargo adicional. Y si las personas que recibian mis email llegaban a las mismas conclusiones que yo, entonces el resultado del emprendimiento estaba asegurado. Asi es que comence a enviar email. Pasaron 2, luego 3 semanas y nada aun. Un dia de la cuarta semana, aparecieron dos sobres en mi buzon. Un par de dias despues llegaron otros. Ahora no se cuando dejaran de llegar sobres de distintos paises, conteniendo U$ 5.00 dolares para mi. C. Sarabia, Curico, Chile. PIDA SUS INFORMES HOY Y COMENZARA SU CAMINO HACIA LA LIBERTAD FINANCIERA!!!!!! Si usted tiene cualquier cuestion sobre la legalidad de este programa, entre en contacto con la Oficina del director para las pr獺cticas de la comercializaci籀n, comercio federal del asociado Comisi籀n, oficina de la protecci籀n al consumidor, Washington, C.C.. Esto es una transmisi籀n del E-mail de una vez. NO ES NECESARIO SOLICITAR REMOVERLO - Su direccion fue obtenida en un sitio de libre acceso y/o guia publica de e-mails y/o board de avisos clasificados y no forma parte de ninguna lista de distribucion. From guval at elsitio.com Sat Jul 28 23:56:50 2001 From: guval at elsitio.com (C. Sarabia.) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 02:56:50 -0400 Subject: Tus Creencias determinan lo que lograras Message-ID: <200107290949.f6T9nsJ05895@rigel.cyberpass.net> Estimado Amigo: No permitas que nadie te diga lo contrario. TU PUEDES GANAR DINERO EN INTERNET, SI SABES COMO HACERLO. Tanto si piensa que puede, como si piensa que no puede, de cualquier modo, est獺 en lo cierto. (Henry Ford) Desde este momento, usted, tiene dos opciones, o se molesta a morir por este correo no solicitado, o abre su mente para captar la increible verdad, que el le trae. Tomese su tiempo, pero decida en conciencia, cuanto puede perder si acepta leer este mensaje hasta el final, o cuanto puede ganar si lo que le mostramos es verdad. La verdad es que Ud. esta a punto de conocer una de las oportunidades economicas mas fascinantes y lucrativas que se estan desarrollando actualmente en Internet. "Lo que usted esta a punto de leer los dejara asombrado con su simplicidad y su poder para generar rapidamente una enorme cantidad de dinero para Ud. La carta de ventas que Ud. Lee ahora contiene un completo plan de mercadeo para desarrollar. La simplicidad de este programa es el secreto de su poder lucrativo. Usted no tiene que crear nada, no hay ningun complicado plan de mercadeo que estudiar. No hay que implementar un complicado sistema en l穩nea, para que este programa funcione. Solo tiene que tomar la decision de hacerlo y despues de unos pocos y sencillos pasos, comenzara a recibir el dinero generado por este poderoso sistema. Creame,...realmente funciona. Solo hay que seguir al pie de la letra las indicaciones. Este es un programa de mercadeo generado correctamente, y aplicado una y otra vez, produce los mismos e increibles resultados ... UNA Y OTRA VEZ. S穩, ya s矇, ya s矇... Al igual que a todos nosotros, al principio, nos preocupa la legalidad y la etica del sistema. THE MONEY MAKER PROGRAM, no es una carta en cadena, o un sistema de piramide ilegal. Es un producto informatico, comercializado a traves de la metrodologia del multinivel, utilizando la tecnologia de internet y el correo electronico. Usted no esta pidiendo dinero por nada. No esta especulando con la buena voluntad de las personas,... Usted, esta comercializando 5 valiosos informes comerciales, que puede utilizar para implementar cualquier sistema de comercializacion a traves de Internet. Tan solo siguiendo unas sencillas instrucciones, e invirtiendo solamente $ 25.00 dolares USA, puedes lograr increibles resultados economicos. Un testimonio: "Doy gracias de haber aprovechado esta oportunidad. Anteriormente habia recibido varias veces este mail - pero nunca le habia prestado atencion. Cuando intente saber que sucedia y me acople al emprendimiento invirtiendo $.25.00 y sin esperar demasiado por el esfuerzo que debia hacer - quede asombrado. Ya recibi un total de $.610.470,00 dolares USA en 21 semanas y aun continua llegando dinero... " Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, NJ Otro: " Este programa me habia estado llegando a mi casilla de e-mail durante algun tiempo pero nunca crei en el. Sin embargo un dia me decidi a invertir mis $.25,00 dolares USA. Segui las instrucciones simples y ... 3 semanas mas tarde el correo comenzo a llegar con dinero real. El primer mes solo recibi $.240.00 dolares USA, pero en los siguientes dos meses recibi un total de $.290.000,00 dolares USA y hasta ahora cuando solo han pasado ocho meses desde que realice mis primeros envios he recibido $.710.000,00 dolares USA - estoy ingresando nuevamente. La clave del 矇xito de este programa es seguir los pasos progresivos sin introducir cambios..." John Carper, Los Angeles, CA Mas adelante encontrara otros testimonios, pero ahora le sugiero: IMPRIMA ESTE MAIL PARA SU REFERENCIA EN EL FUTURO - puede cambiar su vida! Si a Vd le gustaria ganar por lo menos $. 500.000,00 dolares USA cada 4/5 meses lea atentamente lo siguiente - y si es necesario: LEALO UNA y OTRA VEZ!!!! SIGA LAS SIMPLES INSTRUCCIONES QUE SE DETALLAN MAS ABAJO Y SUS SUEOS SE HARAN REALIDAD - TOTALMENTE GARANTIZADO!!!!!!!! INSTRUCCIONES: Solicite los CINCO informes que se detallan mas adelante - constituyen la llave de este negocio. Envie $. 5.00 dolares USA por correo - en efectivo [coloque el billete dentro de un papel carbonico y/o envielo como valor declarado, por cada informe solicitado con una nota dirigida a la persona cuyo nombre y datos figuran al lado de cada informe, Indicando: Numero y Nombre del informe que esta solicitando Su direccion de e-mail [por favor clara y legible] Su direccion postal Su nombre Por cualquier problema con el sistema de correos cerciorese de colocar tambien el remitente en la esquina superior izquierda del sobre. Vd necesitara los 5 informes para continuar su negocio - y estos son la parte mas importante del mismo. Los recibira por e-mail de cada una de las personas a las que les envio los $.5.00 dolares USA y debera salvarlos en el disco duro de su PC para luego poder enviarlos a los cientos de personas que despues de 2/3 semanas se los iran pidiendo - cuando Vd comienze a recibir las ordenes con sus $. 5.00 dolares USA. MUY IMPORTANTE: no altere los nombres de las persona que se detallan en cada informe, ni su secuencia en la lista, ni introduzca ninguna variante que quiebre la progresion estipulada - hacerlo solo disminuira sus beneficios futuros. Si Vd comprende como funciona este sistema vera que cualquier alteracion solo disminuira sus ganancias - recuerde, este metodo esta totalmente probado y FUNCIONA - no lo altere, creame que perdera beneficios. Alguna gente ha intentado poner a amigos o familiares en los cinco lugares de la lista pensando que asi obtendrian mas ganancias - sencillamente NO FUNCIONA, las ganancias disminuyen. Si Vd procede honradamente y sigue el programa sus beneficios estan garantizados, entonces NO INTENTE CAMBIAR NADA y RECIBIRA SU RECOMPENSA!!!!! Despues de haber solicitado los 5 informes - tome este e-mail y proceda de la siguiente forma: QUITE el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 5 Esta persona ya ha completado su ciclo en el programa y seguramente esta contando su dinero MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 4 al INFORME # 5 MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 3 al INFORME # 4 MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 2 al INFORME # 3 MUEVA el nombre y la direccion de la persona que figura en el INFORME # 1 al INFORME # 2 y ahora: INTRODUZCA su nombre y su direccion postal al lado del INFORME#1 Por favor: PRESTE MUCHA ATENCION AL COPIAR NOMBRES Y DIRECCIONES - un error produce un quiebre en el sistema, por lo tanto: COPIE CADA NOMBRE Y DIRECCION CON TOTAL EXACTITUD!!!!!!!! AHORA: una vez que Vd ha modificado la lista con los datos y las direcciones y HA INTRODUCIDO LA SUYA al lado del reporte # 1 - no haga ningun otro cambio!!!!!! GUARDE el mail modificado en su disco rigido - tambien es aconsejable que haga una copia en diskette, por cualquier problema. Los 5 reportes que Vd compra a $. 5,00 dolares USA cada uno seran su producto y le ayudaran con inestimable informacion para la comercializacion a traves de Internet. Los reportes incluyen como enviar e-mail masivos en forma legal, donde encontrar millares de direcciones de todo el mundo, como anunciar en los sitios de avisos clasificados gratuitos y MUCHO MAS!!!! En principio existen dos metodos primarios para comenzar a generar este emprendimiento. METODO # 1: envio de bulk-mail [mails masivos] Pensemos que Vd decide hacer solo un peque簽o esfuerzo, y que posteriormente sus contactos tambien decidan hacer ese peque簽o esfuerzo - enviando solamente 5000 e-mails cada uno - y asumamos que el promedio de respuesta es del 0,2% [SI -solo 2 de cada 1000] En verdad la tasa de respuesta podria ser mucho mejor, pero dejemosla en el 0,2% - aunque quizas mucha gente enviara bastante mas de 5000 e-mails. Continuando con este ejemplo: Vd envia 5000 e-mails y obtiene una tasa de respuesta del 0,2% = 10 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 1 Estas 10 personas tambien envian 5000 e-mails cada uno = 50000 e-mails y en este caso, tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron =100 personas que solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 2 Si las 100 personas solo enviaran 5000 e-mails cada uno = 500000 e- mails y en este caso tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron = 1000 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 3 Si las 1000 personas envian solo 5000 e-mails cada uno = 5000000 e- mails y en este caso tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron = 10000 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 4 Y finalmente: Si las 10000 personas envian solo 5000 e-mails cada uno = 50000000 e- mails y en este caso tambien recibieron ordenes de solo el 0,2% de los mails que enviaron = 100000 personas que le solicitaran a Vd el reporte # 5 y le estaran mandando $. 5.00 dolares USA cada una con lo que su renta sera: NADA MENOS QUE: $. 555.550,00 dolares USA LOS NUMEROS NO MIENTEN: tome lapiz y papel y haga la cuenta SI VD CREE QUE LAS TASAS DE RESPUESTA SERAN MUCHO PEORES Y NO VALDRA EL ESFUERZO piense: "MIENTRAS VD LO CONSIDERA IMPOSIBLE MUCHOS ESTAN YA GANANDO DINERO!!!!! Estimado Amigo: Recuerde que estamos hablando de enviar solo 5000 e-mails con una tasa de respuesta tan baja como el 0,2% que produce nada mas que 10 ordenes - ATREVASE a pensar por un momento en que sucederia si cada uno, o la mitad de sus contactos, o tan solo la cuarta parte se decide a enviar 100000 e-mails o mas: Hoy en dia ya hay mas de350 millones de personas conectadas a Internet en todo el mundo... Y el numero crece dia a dia.... METODO # 2: colocando avisos gratuitos en Internet La publicidad en la web es muy barata y existen centenares de lugares GRATUITOS en donde anunciar. La colocacion de avisos gratuitos en la red produce una mayor respuesta y aumenta las posibilidades de lograr tasas de respuesta mayores - por ello le sugerimos que comienze con el METODO # 1 [envio de e-mails masivos - no menos de 5000, o hasta tener 10 ordenes] y luego seguir con el METODO # 2 para incrementar los resultados. Aplique los dos metodos en forma consecutiva y VERA LOS RESULTADOS!!!! Ahora, por cada $. 5.00 dolares USA que Vd recibe debera enviar un e-mail al remitente adjuntando el informe ordenado - hagalo siempre el mismo dia en que recibio la orden y el dinero esto garantizara que quien remite la orden pueda empezar su trabajo en forma inmediata y aumenta la generacion de BENEFICIOS PARA VD!!!!!!! Tenga en cuenta que hasta no recibir los reportes no podra empezar a anunciar y trabajar. IMPORTANTE: Envie siempre los $. 5.00 dolares USA [en billetes americanos] para cada reporte. Cheques no son aceptados. Cerciorese de que el billete este cubierto de por lo menos 2 hojas de papel [si una es carbonico mejor]. En una de las hojas escriba: NUMERO y NOMBRE del informe que esta ordenando SU DIRECCION de E-MAIL SU NOMBRE COMPLETO SU DIRECCION POSTAL Y AHORA: simplemente ordene los reportes: -------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: C. Sarabia. Casilla de Correo N繙 719 Curico Chile No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT # 2 FROM: G.Leone C.Correo N繙 89 - Suc. 028 Buenos Aires [1428] Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: E.Fernandez Quesada 1517 Buenos Aires [1429] Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Maria Tome De la Cruz 488 Lanus [1826] Pcia. Buenos Aires Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #5 "How to send 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Adhelma Fernandez Libertad 138 Martinez [1640] Pcia.Buenos Aires Argentina No se olvide de proporcionar a un email address verdadero (legible por favor) para recibir los informes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TENGA EN CUENTA: hay actualmente mas de 350,000,000 millones de personas en linea en la Web - siga estas lineas de ayuda para GARANTIZAR SU XITO y RECIBIR SU DINERO!!! PROGRAMA PARA EL XITO: Si Vd no recibe por lo menos 10 ordenes para el REPORT # 1 en el plazo de 2 semanas, continue enviando e-mails hasta que tenga al menos esas primeras 10 ordenes. Una vez que haya recibido las 10 ordenes para el REPORT # 1, debera recibir al menos 100 ordenes para el REPORT # 2 en el plazo de las 2/3 semanas posteriores - sugerimos que comienze a publicar avisos en los sitios gratuitos, pero si Vd no recibe al menos 100 ordenes en ese plazo - continue enviando e-mails y colocando anuncios hasta lograr un minimo de 100 ordenes del REPORT # 2. Si logro las 100 ordenes para el REPORT # 2 puede comenzar a relajarse -el sistema ya ha comenzado a trabajar para Vd y el efectivo comenzara a llegar en buena cantidad!!!!!! ES MUY IMPORTANTE RECORDAR: Cada vez que su nombre cambia de posicion en la lista debera enviar un informe diferente - Vd puede medir el progreso de su trabajo viendo que report le estan solicitando - si Vd necesita generar MAS RENTA... solo tiene que seguir enviando mails y anunciando en los sitios gratuitos y comenzar una y otra vez... NO HAY LIMITE: puede seguir haciendolo todo el tiempo que quiera y generar MAS y MAS DINERO!!!! LO QUE SIGUE ES UNA NOTA FINAL DEL INICIADOR DE ESTE PROGRAMA: "Vd acaba de recibir la informaci籀n que le puede brindar la libertad financiera para el resto de su vida, sin RIESGO y APENAS UN POCO DE ESFUERZO. Usted puede hacer m獺s dinero en las semanas y los meses pr籀ximos que lo que alguna vez pudo imaginar. Siga el programa EXACTAMENTE SEGN LO ESTABLECIDO. No lo cambie de ninguna manera. Todo ha sido comprobado una y otra vez y esta funcionando realmente bien tal como Vd lo recibio. Le sugiero imprima una copia de este mail y lo guarde en su disco rigido una vez que usted haya puesto su nombre y direccion en el REPORT # 1 y movi籀 los otros a # 2 - # 5 seg繳n lo estipulado mas arriba. Cualquiera de las personas a las que usted env穩e esto puede decidirse a enviar 100.000 o m獺s E-mails y su nombre estar獺 posiconado en cada uno de ellos. Recuerde sin embargo, que cuantos mas e-mails Vd envia m獺s clientes potenciales generara y cualquiera de ellos puede ser el que envie 100,000 mails o mas. Estimado amigo, le he dado las ideas, la informaci籀n, el producto, los materiales y la oportunidad de llegar a ser financieramente independiente. EL RESTO AHORA ESTA EN USTED! ********************************************************************* MAS TESTIMONIOS: "mi nombre es Mitchell. Mi esposa, Jody y yo vivimos en Chicago, yo soy gerente contable en una importante corporaci籀n de los E.E.U.U. y gano un buen dinero. Cuando recib穩 este programa lo primero que hice fue quejarme y comentarle a Jody sobre la recepci籀n de "correo basura - spam" que inundaba mi casilla de mail. Me causo gracia todo el programa, y echando mano a mi conocimiento de la poblaci籀n y de los porcentajes implicados - " sab穩a que " el programa no funcionariaa. Jody no hizo ningun caso a todos mis argumentosa supuestamente inteligentes y dio los primeros pasos algunos d穩as m獺s adelante. Me diverti sin piedad con ella, y por supuesto estaba listo a decir el viejo " yo te lo dije " cuando la cosa no funcionara. Bien, para mi era todo risa! En el plazo de 3 semanas ella hab穩a recibido 50 respuestas. En el plazo de los 45 d穩as pr籀ximos ella hab穩a recibido a total de $147.200,00 todo en efectivo! Me dio una shock. Ahora trato de asociarme a Jody " Wolf De Mitchell, Chicago, Illinois " no siendo aficionado a este tipo de juego, me tom籀 varias semanas decidirme a participar en este plan. Pero como buen conservador que soy, decidi que la inversi籀n inicial era tan peque簽a que era casi imposible que no consiguiera bastantes 籀rdenes para recuperar por lo menos mi dinero invertido. Quede totalmente sorprendido cuando encontr矇 mi apartado de correos de tama簽o mediano abarrotado con 籀rdenes. Hice $319.210,00 de las primeras 12 semanas. La mejor sobre esto del reparto es que no importa donde vive la gente. No hay simplemente a una inversi籀n con una vuelta m獺s r獺pida y tan grande." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canad獺 Mi testimonio personal: Una carta similar a esta, llego en varias ocasiones a mi email, e invariablemente yo la eliminaba, por que me parecia una estupidez la oferta de hacernos ricos casi sin esfuerzo. Sin embargo, un dia, en que disponia de mucho tiempo estaba tranquilamente revisando mi correo elecronico, y me encuentro nuevamente, con este email, casi por curiosidad, decidi leerla completa, para ver que decia exactamente. Mientras leia, se fueron formando imagenes en mi mente, sobre las posibilidades que se me presentaba, si esto fuera verdad. me imaginaba como seria mi vida, si lograba obtener los ingresos que el email ofrecia, so簽e por algunos minutos, con las cosas que lograria. Finalmente decidi imprimirla, para volver a leerla. Durante varios dias, la leia, y releia, en mis ratos libres, y en las noches antes de dormirme. Finalmente tome la desicion, de invertir los U$ 25.00, y solicite los 5 informes. Que podia perder. No es una gran cantidad de dinero. Yo conocia claramente la potencia del marketing de multinivel. El dinero lo recibiria directamente en mi correo, sin intermediarios. No tenia que pagar ningun cargo adicional. Y si las personas que recibian mis email llegaban a las mismas conclusiones que yo, entonces el resultado del emprendimiento estaba asegurado. Asi es que comence a enviar email. Pasaron 2, luego 3 semanas y nada aun. Un dia de la cuarta semana, aparecieron dos sobres en mi buzon. Un par de dias despues llegaron otros. Ahora no se cuando dejaran de llegar sobres de distintos paises, conteniendo U$ 5.00 dolares para mi. C. Sarabia, Curico, Chile. PIDA SUS INFORMES HOY Y COMENZARA SU CAMINO HACIA LA LIBERTAD FINANCIERA!!!!!! Si usted tiene cualquier cuestion sobre la legalidad de este programa, entre en contacto con la Oficina del director para las pr獺cticas de la comercializaci籀n, comercio federal del asociado Comisi籀n, oficina de la protecci籀n al consumidor, Washington, C.C.. Esto es una transmisi籀n del E-mail de una vez. NO ES NECESARIO SOLICITAR REMOVERLO - Su direccion fue obtenida en un sitio de libre acceso y/o guia publica de e-mails y/o board de avisos clasificados y no forma parte de ninguna lista de distribucion. From ggr at qualcomm.com Sat Jul 28 15:09:32 2001 From: ggr at qualcomm.com (Greg Rose) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:09:32 +1000 Subject: Fix for RC4 (was: Re: Attention CipherSaber Users!!) In-Reply-To: <3B62BC1E.18015.3B36DE1@localhost> References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20010729080204.00b96638@203.30.171.11> The fix that's been suggested for some time in the common wisdom about RC4, namely discarding the first 256 bytes of output, would seem to be entirely adequate to address the problems discovered. If this is considered to be part of the key setup, it slightly less than doubles the time, and it's extremely simple. I have always felt that folding in the key with only a single pass was a bit "close to the edge". Note that the RC5 *key schedule* does at least three passes! (Not strictly comparable, of course.) Another alternative suggests itself, which would be to continue the key-based randomisation for a second pass over the state array. I'd worry about weak keys that somehow undid their own actions, though, so I think I still prefer just letting the randomisation-through-generation continue. Greg. At 01:20 PM 7/28/2001 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- >On 27 Jul 2001, at 11:33, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > > A draft paper by Scott Fluhrer, Itsik Mantin and Adi Shamir was > > released on July 25, 2001 and announces new attacks on the RC4 cipher > > that is the basis for CipherSaber-1. Some of these attacks > > specifically involve the use of an IV with a secret key, the very > > scheme used in CipherSaber. Prof. Shamir states in an e-mail > > accompanying the release: > >If I understand the paper >http://www.eyetap.org/~rguerra/toronto2001/rc4_ksaproc.pdf correctly, >Cybersabre and WEP would be fixed if instead of making the RC4 >initialization by concatenating a permanent and unchanging secret key, and >an ever changing visible random value, they instead constructed >the RC4 key by doing several different SHA hashes of the unchanging secret >key, and the ever changing visible random value, and concatenated those >hashes, and also discarded some substantial number of initial bytes from >the RC4 output. > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > xXgj5w0VTwI81xCh6amG5KOaB6nNDXD/mS2s7VXR > 4vvEsQrjo5uE2RHZQa/1atZPduIFyneZNWgzOS40c > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Cryptography Mailing List >Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to >majordomo at wasabisystems.com Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr at qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 29 06:20:36 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:20:36 -0500 Subject: Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage Message-ID: <3B640DA4.F47FE10F@ssz.com> http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 29 06:34:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:34:48 -0500 Subject: Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | Bush plans 'space bomber' Message-ID: <3B6410F8.E352B696@ssz.com> http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,529208,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From stevet at sendon.net Sun Jul 29 01:49:16 2001 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:49:16 +0000 Subject: U.K. anti-terrorism law imperils hackers, privacy, property References: <20010728205816.A20465@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200107291014.GAA27615@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com): [snip] > Americans, be warned. Congress is spending more and more time talking > about bio-chem, Internet, and nuclear attacks. Soon you could be > facing the same invasions of privacy and property. A good exercise for the students would be to discuss how legislative initiatives such as this will affect non-institutional research into molecular and biological sciences and related fields. > In a discussion on a U.K. mailing list, Ross Anderson of Cambridge > University said that the law was written so broadly that it could > imperil his computer security work. Predicted Anderson: "So now we > know. We are all terrorists now!" All scientists are potential terrorists. > EXCERPTS FROM TERRORISM ACT: > > > Arrest of suspected terrorists power of entry. 81. A constable may > enter and search any premises if he reasonably suspects that a > terrorist, within the meaning of section 40(1)(b), is to be found > there. Terrorist (n.), Any person or expert system (excepting registered corporations) which acts in such a manner as to make a police officer suspicious that he, she, or it might engage in or think about engaging in terrorist activates. > Terrorist information. 103. - (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) > he collects, makes a record of, publishes, communicates or attempts to > elicit information about a person to whom this section applies which > is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing > an act of terrorism, or (b) he possesses a document or record > containing information of that kind. So the U.K. Government will no doubt apply to have the principles of google.com extradited for prosecution. > Arrest without warrant. 41. - (1) A constable may arrest without a > warrant a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist. (2) > Where a person is arrested under this section the provisions of > Schedule 8 (detention treatment, review and extension) shall apply. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Those wacky politicians. [snip] Regards, Steve -- ``If religion were nothing but an illusion and a sham, there could be no philosophy of it. The study of it would belong to abnormal psychology.... Religion cannot afford to claim exemption from philosophical enquiry. If it attempts to do so on the grounds of sanctity, it can only draw upon itself suspicion that it is afraid to face the music.'' -- H. J. Paton, "The Modern Predicament" From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 29 07:14:44 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:14:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010726184357.00881370@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: Micro-lite (aerobody) burst transmitters will solve the problem handily. On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > At 09:19 PM 7/26/01 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > >>Problem: if each soldier's radio relays messages, it becomes > >>relatively easy to create a soldier-seeking bullet. Just home > >>in on the source of that radio noise, and blam. > > > >Hence, LPI. Spread-spectrum, UWB, directed transmissions in the high > >microwave bands, and so on. Dunno how useful the latter are for portable > >equipment, though, or in the battlefield conditions. > > Bear has a point; no matter how you spread or hop, you're an emitter. > Shoot anything that radiates from 50 Mhz-IR. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 29 07:19:00 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:19:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OPT: Re: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers (fwd) Message-ID: "Small World" network models resolve almost all of these issues...the failure with all these models is the concept of 'root' (or more generaly 'heirarchy'). It's not needed. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: dmolnar Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: gbroiles at speakeasy.org Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: CDR: Re: Open 802.11b wireless access points and remailers On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 gbroiles at speakeasy.org wrote: > forbidden emails or browse hidden sites did that by going to public > terminals in libraries or web cafes or [...] - now perhaps they'll do that > at Starbucks or the mall, either for free or having paid cash for > short-term access via 802.11b wireless. I heard recently that Starbucks is piloting 802.11b access in selected Manhattan locations. The issue is support, of course - they need to see if they'll have to hire a sysadmin for every Starbucks before rolling it out. I haven't taken my laptop and tried to verify this yet. Matthew Skala had some material on his web page concerning "community wireless" networks, as well, in which people offer free wireless connectivity as a public service. Presumably this too would offer opportunities for anonymous net access. I would be less willing to trust a static box connected to one of these networks, though. Once identified as a remailer, it seems that it might be too easy to track it to its physical location, at which point it can be borged or destroyed. After all, if it's going to be an active remailer, it will be sending and receiving several messages each day. You might try to get around this by developing a protocol in which there are many, many remailers, each of which only speaks once in a very long while. I don't know how easy or hard it is exactly to do this kind of tracking, however, which makes it difficult to say what such a protocol would look like. Perhaps mobile remailers might be more useful or more difficult to track to their physical implementation. The only problem with a mobile remailer is the question of "who's moving it?" (or what). I can imagine a mobile remailer the size of a Walkman without too much difficulty; I can also imagine that if I were to wear such a remailer and walk around in the wrong kind of environment, I'd be asking for a "mugging." or worse. Now that I think about it, it's not clear that wireless actually buys us more than obscurity of physical location. The real win, as you point out, is ease of access and ease of setup. Maybe less dependence on upstream connections, as well, so you can get around the problem of ISPs shutting down remailers for spam. Plus mobile remailers seem to require either a global address space or developing the notion of remailer confederations which allow dynamic leave and join of remailer nodes. I recall that the notion of dynamic collections of remailers came up in at least one previous discussion of disposable remailers. I don't remember that too many conclusions were reached, but it was a while abck. One problem is that an adversary can show up with polynomially many of its closest friends and have them all try to join a remailer confederation at once. While the MIX protocol is theoretically OK as long as even one MIX is honest, this may have bad implications for traffic analysis. Perhaps one thing we could do would be to borrow Levien's advogato metric. Let anyone who wants to start a remailer confederation. They form the root set of the trust metric for that confederation. Anyone can join the confederation's address space, but will start out with no trust links between them and the root set. Nodes can rate each other, establishing trust links. This way you can develop a trust metric / reputation system local to that particular remailer confederation. Now the issues are how the ratings are set up and maybe more important, how routing of messages is influenced by the trust metric. Ratings could be manual. We know how well that works from the PGP web of trust experiment - and here life is harder since remops usually will not know each other personally nor want to. Another issue is dealing with nodes which leave the confederation. What if all the confederation founders leave? what happens to the root set then? Also, building up trust may require time, which makes this unsuitable for nodes which want to pop in for 20 ins and then leave (say their owner is on the freeway). -David -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sun Jul 29 07:00:55 2001 From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 10:00:55 -0400 Subject: SirCam contribution References: Message-ID: <3B641717.1B38A65C@ACM.Org> No, MS Word just takes the first line as the default Title. Changeable if you want. It also uses it for the default filename. PHM Anonymous wrote: > > This is a strings-processed portion of a recent SirCam post on cypherpunks. > > Note that SS number seems to be embedded in microshit document - is this a standard practice ? > > ############## > > Social Security Number: 326-70-5214 > Prompt Number 1 > <> > 8$45STR > 48d`$da$d8 1h/ =!"#$%i8 at 8NormalCJ_HaJmH sH tH x$Social Security Number: 326-70-5214ociValued Sony Customerr: alualuNormalSValued Sony Customerr: 1luMicrosoft Word 9.0r@@ > @@ .+,0hp > SonyS\ $Social Security Number: 326-70-5214Title !"#$'Root Entry Fs0)1Table > WordDocument"SummaryInformation(DocumentSummaryInformation8CompObjjObjectPools0s0 FMicrosoft Word DocumentMSWordDocWord.Document -- Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP PaulMerrill at ACM.Org From hostmaster at dot-god.com Sun Jul 29 10:49:04 2001 From: hostmaster at dot-god.com (The dot.GOD Registry, Limited) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 10:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Validation of BAZOOKA.GOD Domain Message-ID: <200107291749.f6THn4H98213@dot-god.dot-god.COM> Hello: This email will confirm that we have processed your domain registration request for: BAZOOKA.GOD. Someone, hopefully you, has registered this domain with us. If not please let us know. You must now visit our web site to validate your domain and enter your validation ticket number. TICKET: 8575abcbe99642177301 Please click on the following URL to activate your new domain name now. https://secure.dot-god.com/god.nic/validate.cgi?bazooka=8575abcbe99642177301 Or if the above URL does not work (some email systems may crop the URL) then please visit: https://secure.dot-god.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi and enter the following information manually at the prompt: DOMAIN: bazooka TICKET: 8575abcbe99642177301 Regards hostmaster at dot-god.com http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Sreet New York, New York, 10019 US From hostmaster at dot-god.com Sun Jul 29 10:49:08 2001 From: hostmaster at dot-god.com (The dot.GOD Registry, Limited) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 10:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Validation of BIGMAMA.GOD Domain Message-ID: <200107291749.f6THn8S98248@dot-god.dot-god.COM> Hello: This email will confirm that we have processed your domain registration request for: BIGMAMA.GOD. Someone, hopefully you, has registered this domain with us. If not please let us know. You must now visit our web site to validate your domain and enter your validation ticket number. TICKET: 8694bebe899642174499 Please click on the following URL to activate your new domain name now. https://secure.dot-god.com/god.nic/validate.cgi?bigmama=8694bebe899642174499 Or if the above URL does not work (some email systems may crop the URL) then please visit: https://secure.dot-god.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi and enter the following information manually at the prompt: DOMAIN: bigmama TICKET: 8694bebe899642174499 Regards hostmaster at dot-god.com http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Sreet New York, New York, 10019 US From salim at zerogravity.homechoice.co.uk Sun Jul 29 03:06:14 2001 From: salim at zerogravity.homechoice.co.uk (Salim Hasham) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:06:14 +0100 Subject: remove Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From salim at zerogravity.homechoice.co.uk Sun Jul 29 03:06:29 2001 From: salim at zerogravity.homechoice.co.uk (Salim Hasham) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:06:29 +0100 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 29 09:29:22 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:29:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The real enemies of the poor In-Reply-To: <76dd678420fcd09ea4564185d1309b1c@freemail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > What argument from authority? Barring the sudden onset of senility or > insanity, familiarity with past work gives you a general indication of > whether or not you want to read something. Your question is your own answer. Your belief in their consistency, and it's acceptability by your sensibilities, is an 'authority'. You've given them trust a priori. I prefer they earn it each and every time anew. A personal note, I hate sequels. > Even reading this list, I'm sure there are people you read first and people > you skip totally...And how likely is it that the first 15 essays are > excellent but they saved the crappy ones for 16 on? ha! Actualy I read just about every submission to the list, I don't in general pick viewpoints based on personality. The whole 'cult of personality' crap makes me queezy. As to essays, I find it a rare author who writes 15 pages, let alone 15 essays, I don't find problems with. If you can read a book and go through an entire chapter without saying "wait just a damn minute..." then you're either not absorbing what is being said, you are reading material that is already in line with your views/expectations, or else it's 'fluff'. I'll make an observation, at the risk of offending sensibilities, from your past commentary you look for work that goes along with what you believe/want. Myself, I tend to go places where I'm the minority (this mailing list being an example) because the dialog is much more invigorating than sitting in a bunch of people who already agree with me. > All I'm saying is that his background credentials and published work was > every bit as impressive the performance at the meeting...and that one of > his essays is on the list. :) Now with a backstory like that, you actually > mean to tell me I don't have a good reason to look forward to reading it? > HA! Actually it demostrates my thesis above. You had a view, you found his view to be complementary (you agreed with everything he said), and now you pursue that. Me, I'd hunt for the holes in his theory/argument (and I guarantee they are there). You read what you sow. > > >I strongly want global trade and cultural exchange. I do not want global > > >government or corporate enterprise. > > You mean global corporate enterprise, or corporate enterprise at all? > >Actually both. The 1870 law which created the modern monster of a > >'corporation' should be thrown out. > > Replaced with what, though. That's the hard part. Nothing. There is no need. The reality is that 'business' is nothing more than 'pursuit of happiness'. If a company, any human enterprise, commits a crime then the people who are responsible as well as the people who executed the crime should pay. If that means the company goes down, so be it. Another will rise in its place...phoenix like. The fact that people are out of work is irrelevant. The market (ie out of work people and other businesses that don't have enough workers) will correct. You have a right to 'try', no guarantee to 'succeed'. > > Corporations, and other business organizations, should be able to sell to > >their like type across the > >relevant 'big pond'. A corporation should not be able to exist in two > >different countries as a single organization. > > So the answer is to break them up and create more paperwork and bureacracy? Prove that such a move would create either...you made the assertion and I am not willing to take it at face value. It doesn't create more paperwork or beurocracy, it reduces it (considerably). > Even if your last point is the "right answer" in theory, I don't see how > the implementation of it would get you the results you're after, in terms > of effects on society. Explain your doubts more clearly (ie emulate that author you were proud of above)... A democratic government should consist of two broad components, the elected and the voters (corporations can do neither, and recognizing the elected are also voters). By eliminating the 'big money' effects on democracy we remove the largest component of its abuse, influence by non-participants. > > >I want direct interaction of business in government to be prohibited. > > How? Any solution I can think of has the potential to be more problematic > > than the problem itself. > >So what solution(s) have you thought of? Quid pro Quo... > > The obvious first step would be to limit government to its constitutionally > proscribed role: get them out of activities best left to the private > sector. No, the obvious first step is to get big business (really any business) out of government. To eliminate the ability of 'business' as a independent agent (equivalent to a person with natural rights, which they ain't - they are the expression of natural rights - not the same thing) to participate in government will do a great deal toward putting our country back on the right track (ie serving the people and their 'pursuit of happiness' directly). > But without the incentives for a thriving nonprofit sector in place > (yes, 501(c)(3)s are international corporations too), it can't happen in a > way people could be comfortable with enough to accept. Nonprofits are the > key to creating a civil society, and in my opinion it's a huge mistake to > ignore their role in taking over services that the private sector can't or > won't. How could voluntary collective action be anything BUT good..? Oh > well. ??? People are the key to a civil society. Non-profits allow a group of like minded individuals to participate in ways that are prohibited to government (because government per se is not any more the solution to all human problems than 'economics' is). 'private sector' has 'non-profit' as a component. You draw a false distinction. You speak double-speak quite well, you're hard work has paid off... 'voluntary collective action' has caused quite a bit of damage in history. Look at religion, politics (eg socialism), etc. Simply because people volunteer to some act does not, and is not sufficient even in theory, make it a 'good' thing. Only popular. Never confuse the two. Might does not make right. > Realistically speaking, even if the entire US government collapsed tomorrow > and you had "complete anarchy", it wouldn't be complete because large > corporations have enough capital, resources, and sufficient organization to > stay together to the point that they could maintain some semblance of order > in their local area. Bullshit. If the government collapsed tomorrow the last thing I'd be worried about (and so would 90% of the rest of the population) would be going to work tomorrow morning. The small factor that would be running around worried about their 'profit margin' are simply sticking their heads in the sand. The reason there wouldn't be complete anarchy isn't economics, its politics and shared culture. The state and local governments would still be operating. This is the real strength of a multi-tiered distributed authority democracy. It's well nigh impossible to destroy short of a total scorched earth approach. Look at the collapse of the CCCP for a real world example of how your belief in the 'saviour of economics' will act. It won't save anything, it will corrupt and abuse with the best of 'em. > Look at the way the oil companies function in Africa; And exactly how do you propose they function? In large parts of Africa the oil industry is nationalised. > look at the way drug cartels (an international business operation if ever > there was one) influence policy in Columbia. Not that there's anything good > or desirable about it--it's just that Joe Blow the Democracy Advocate > doesn't have the slightest bit of influence over them one way or the other, > government or not. Really? I wonder how long those drug cartels would exist if their bases in the US were all of a sunded removed. I wonder how they'd take it when they discovered they could no longer gain access to US resources because of their behaviour? > So given that, you're faced with the prospect of massive > legislation as the only alternative. That doesn't seem too promising > either. Actually I'm not. Limits of your imagination are not limits of mine thank you very much. The answer isn't more legislation. It's less, more rational, principled legislation. Coupled with strict enforcement. I'd hypothesize that a functioning American democracy could exist with less than 2000 individual laws (I suspect considerably less actually). The answer is not to make it more complicated and more 'exception based' but to make it 'principle based'. > >An observation that is sure to piss some C-A-C-L's off, but the reality is > >that in 'free market' economics ala Hayek or Von Mises the potential for > >'Bill Gates' wealth is nil. A 'free market' system isn't about getting > >filthy rich. It's about participating in a 'community'. > > Unfortunately, this involves a confusion between capitalism and democracy. Perhaps on your part. I'm quite clear on the distinction. But I"ll humor you, what confusion might that entail? > But unlike you, I don't think there's any contradiction in being pro-free > market and anti-consumptionism. I didn't say there was a contradiction (in fact I said the opposite). A free market isn't about consumption, it's about choice and allowing the individual to make it. Consuptionism is clearly contrary to that. > I hate the idea that so many people seem to think accumulating material > goods is an acceptable substitute for an inner life. But just because I > choose to live simply and don't drive in favor of commuting, recycle, etc. > doesn't give me the right to demand others do the same. Clearly, however if their refusal to be responsible with the consequences of their acts interfere with me then I have a right to act in self-defence. You have a right to pursue happiness, you don't have a right to interfere or stop others in their pursuite. And 'living simply' does not equate to 'inner life'. To say that one rejects physical things because others pursue them isn't a moral view point. It's just as much 'living up to the Joneses' as the consumerist. A rich 'inner life' is about doing what you think is right, not a reference to what other people think. You are What you do When it counts The Msao > But the examples I gave above point to the idea that pure democratic > anarchy is every bit as bound to fail as the ideal of pure democratic > communism was (what's the real difference, when you think about it?) Communism is about heirarchical (ie communes) structures. Democracy is about individual choice. Not the same thing. Anarchy is about not having a 'leader' even a philisophical one. Clearly contrary to both communism and democracy. > precisely because of the way people tend to make things, given the chance. > What's to keep the strong and clever from ganging up on the weak and > stupid? The amoral from ripping off the principled and pious? Anywhere, > ever? The Constitution and the rule of law is the best chance we have... There is no such thing as 'democratic anarchy' or 'democratic communism'. That you would even stick them together indicates your fundamental misunderstanding of the true concepts and your acceptance of the status quo as defined by others. Congratulations, you're a full blown subscriber to the consumerism party: Baffle 'em with bullshit, by the time they figure it out we'll be long gone with the goods.... -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Jul 29 09:56:59 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Possible Internet Split (plan D) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote: > The problem with Plan D, if implemented over the current Internet, > is that the low levels of the internet are a tree rather than a > proper network. Which is where a distributed grass roots wire-less network based on 'small world networks' comes into play. In general this new network layer will have two components. The first are 'static' within a region. This includes both fixed point and mobile users in that locale. The second, and to date pretty much ignored aspect, is long-distance long-haul. The answer here is automobiles using the same sort of technology as above but tied to highways and byways. Small Worlds: The dynamics of networks between order and randomness. D.J. Watts ISBN 0-691-00541-9 > There are choke points and listening points at > which all of a particular person's traffic can be guaranteed to > be intercepted. Every packet that traverses the internet can be > queried to see where it's going, where it came from, how many hops > it has left to live, etc. Only if we keep letting 'them' take the lead in the standards definition and implimentation. This is the true power of Open Source software, it allows the individual to select what they will use, as opposed to some dicta from 'them'. > Every "solution" to these problems requires identifiable nodes to > traffic in detectable types of packets over an increasingly monitored > and controlled infrastructure. Beep, wrong answer. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From news at real-net.net Sun Jul 29 12:11:11 2001 From: news at real-net.net (Real.com Games) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:11:11 -0700 Subject: Hot New Game - Free Demo! Message-ID: <200107291911.MAA25753@fmailg2.real-net.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s54s at yahoo.com Sun Jul 29 14:19:04 2001 From: s54s at yahoo.com (Trim Life) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:19:04 Subject: Lose 10 pounds in one week, GUARANTEED! Message-ID: <200107292111.f6TLBhJ21556@rigel.cyberpass.net> FREE SAMPLE! 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From julie14291 at freevibrator.com Sun Jul 29 11:50:30 2001 From: julie14291 at freevibrator.com (julie14291 at freevibrator.com) Date: 29 Jul 2001 14:50:30 -0400 Subject: e-mail confirmation #63814291 Message-ID: This is a confirmation e-mail for your request. You can come anytime and claim your FREE Sex Toys at http://www.freevibrator.com All Free Sex Toys we feature are absolutly free with no purchase necessary whatsoever. (Small reasonable shipping charges apply) Thank You for subscribing to FreeSexToys updates list. This Is OPT-IN list. To make sure that we won't send anything to you in ERROR - You HAVE TO CONFIRM that you would like to be added to our list. To confirm that you want to be added send e-mail to: add at freevibrator.com If you received this e-mail in error (my apologies) or do not wish to be added to our list DO NOTHING. You will NOT be added to our list without Your Confirmation. Freely Yours Julie Aston Julie at freevibrator.com message confirmation ID#1210763814291105787702800 From freematt at coil.com Sun Jul 29 12:43:27 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 15:43:27 -0400 Subject: EVENT: Phil Zimmermann Palo Alto 7-31-01 Tuesday @7pm Message-ID: Palo Alto: Community Room at the Lucie Stern Community Center in Palo Alto (1305 Middlefield Rd.) San Francisco: ServOn at 8th & Townsend in San Francisco (650 Townsend, Suite 252). Parking is available on the roof. Meetings begin at 6:30 with pizza and mingling. At 7:00 everyone has an opportunity to ask questions of the group or to make brief announcements, followed by Phil Zimmermann. PGP's creator speaks from the perspective of its 10th anniversary. The OpenPGP alliance, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and free speech. There is a $10 fee for non-SDForum Members, and no charge for SDForum members or students with ID Internet Security and Privacy Special Events Software Development Forum Special Events July 31st Event A decade ago, Philip R. Zimmermann released an encryption program, Pretty Good Privacy (PGP). For that, the Federal government charged him with violations of the Arms Export Control Act for munitions trafficking. The government held that U.S. national security was jeopardized when PGP was spread around the world as free encryption software. The case against Phil Zimmermann continued for three years. Without a paid staff, without a company to stand behind it, without sufficient funding, and despite government persecution, PGP became the most widely used email encryption software in the world. The feds eventually dropped their case against Phil Zimmermann. Phil Zimmermann will make a rare appearance on Tuesday, July 31st in San Francisco to talk about encryption and the federal government's attempts to control the free speech of programmers through the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Mr. Zimmermann will also discuss the OpenPGP email encryption standard alliance, the future of public key encryption, and answer questions from the audience. Purpose We are bringing in leading experts in many aspects of Internet Security and Privacy to discuss how to protect yourself and your customers against attacks over the Internet. They will explain which threats you should pay attention to first, and how to reduce your risk. Organized by Montebello Partners and PaperlessInvoice, our three special events will focus on the technologies for public key infrastructure, securing credit card information and transactions, and securing your network against intrusion with firewalls and virtual private networks. Our speakers will provide a top-level view of best security practices, as well as practical technical advice on designing, implementing, and managing secure systems. In addition, these events are a great opportunity to meet your colleagues who are also building and administering the latest Internet systems. Find out what malicious activity others have encountered, and what they're doing about it. Please join us, and bring your questions and experiences to share. For further information, visit our web page, or email our organizers Ames Cornish (ames at montebellopartners.com) or Ira Victor (irav at degrees.com) with questions, comments, or suggestions. Event Calendar Where When Speakers Topic SF Tuesday July 31 Phil Zimmermann PGP's creator speaks from the perspective of its 10th anniversary. The OpenPGP alliance, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and free speech. Palo Alto Monday Sep 17 VISA Best practices in preventing credit card fraud and protecting cardholder information. SF Tuesday Oct 30 tba Securing your network against intrusion with firewalls and VPN's. Meetings begin at 6:30 with pizza and mingling. At 7:00 everyone has an opportunity to ask questions of the group or to make brief announcements, followed by the main presentation by our featured speaker. There is a $10 fee for non-SDForum Members, and no charge for SDForum members or students with ID Location and Directions Palo Alto: Community Room at the Lucie Stern Community Center in Palo Alto (1305 Middlefield Rd.) San Francisco: ServOn at 8th & Townsend in San Francisco (650 Townsend, Suite 252). Parking is available on the roof. 穢 1999-2000 Montebello Partners. All rights reserved. http://www.montebellopartners.com/Security/Events.asp ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Sun Jul 29 16:15:34 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:15:34 -0700 Subject: A question of self-defence - Fire extinguishers & self defenc e Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E067796@MISSERVER> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1961 bytes Desc: not available URL: From RGR at bigplanet.com Sun Jul 29 15:32:26 2001 From: RGR at bigplanet.com (RGR at bigplanet.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:32:26 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Ground Floor Home-Based Business Message-ID: <200107292232.QAA00756@loaf2.bigplanet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1913 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Sun Jul 29 16:35:27 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A pattern emerges... Message-ID: Consider the DMCA (US law) as compared to the Terrorism Act of 2000 (UK law). Both make it effectively illegal for ordinary citizens to own, use, or distribute any software capable of performing decrypts by exploiting a weak cryptographic system. The US and UK, not coincidentally, are the two governments with the largest known investments in SIGINT -- the famous Echelon System. If people started using strong cryptographic systems, Echelon would be effectively useless. Therefore it is in the best interests of these two governments to make weak cryptographic systems the norm insofar as they are able. This is possible by providing an additional layer of legal protection to users of weak cryptographic systems -- with software capable of exploiting such weaknesses effectively illegal to own or use, the developers of such products have drastically reduced incentive to develop strong cryptographic systems to replace them. The DMCA and the Terrorism Act appear to provide exactly such laws. What has been passed recently by the other signatories to the UKUSA agreement that created Echelon? Bear --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From RGR at bigplanet.com Sun Jul 29 15:42:55 2001 From: RGR at bigplanet.com (RGR at bigplanet.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:42:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Ground Floor Home-Based Business Message-ID: <200107292242.QAA01973@loaf2.bigplanet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1913 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freematt at coil.com Sun Jul 29 13:58:19 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:58:19 -0400 Subject: CORRECTION Phil Zimmermann EVENT In San Francisco 7-31-01 Tuesday @7pm Message-ID: >San Francisco: ServOn at 8th & Townsend in San Francisco (650 >Townsend, Suite 252). Parking is available on the roof. > >Meetings begin at 6:30 with pizza and mingling. At 7:00 everyone >has an opportunity to ask questions of the group or to make brief >announcements, followed by Phil Zimmermann. PGP's creator speaks >from the perspective of its 10th anniversary. The OpenPGP alliance, >the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and free speech. There is a >$10 fee for non-SDForum Members, and no charge for SDForum members >or students with ID Please note that the Zimmermann talk is in SF at the address above. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From 100free at cgispy.com Sun Jul 29 11:38:06 2001 From: 100free at cgispy.com (100free at cgispy.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 18:38:06 GMT Subject: JULY Specials Message-ID: <200107291838.f6TIc6P06797@dw2.danworld.net> JULY Specials: Video $2.95 Each ------------------------------- Get Your Own Free Mailing List! http://www.cgispy.com From market at siamspecial.com Sat Jul 28 18:52:33 2001 From: market at siamspecial.com (Walailuk) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 18:52:33 1700 Subject: Get Free Garnet Silver Ring Or Toumaline Gemstone Message-ID: <996457953.227@154.5.50> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13503 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Sun Jul 29 16:05:45 2001 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:05:45 -0400 Subject: CORRECTION Phil Zimmermann EVENT In San Francisco 7-31-01 Tuesday @7pm In-Reply-To: ; from freematt@coil.com on Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 04:58:19PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010729190545.A21180@ils.unc.edu> Zimmerman will be speaking at HAL 2001 a few days later (http://www.hal2001.org), in the Netherlands. Greg On Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 04:58:19PM -0400, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > > >San Francisco: ServOn at 8th & Townsend in San Francisco (650 > >Townsend, Suite 252). Parking is available on the roof. > > > >Meetings begin at 6:30 with pizza and mingling. At 7:00 everyone > >has an opportunity to ask questions of the group or to make brief > >announcements, followed by Phil Zimmermann. PGP's creator speaks > >from the perspective of its 10th anniversary. The OpenPGP alliance, > >the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and free speech. There is a > >$10 fee for non-SDForum Members, and no charge for SDForum members > >or students with ID > > > Please note that the Zimmermann talk is in SF at the address above. > > Regards, Matt- From a3495 at cotse.com Sun Jul 29 16:08:21 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The real enemies of the poor Message-ID: <3e932d40c2e7e42a3274729db01a749f@a3495.freemail.cotse.com> Jim worte: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Faustine wrote: > What argument from authority? Barring the sudden onset of senility or > insanity, familiarity with past work gives you a general indication of > whether or not you want to read something. >>Your question is your own answer. Your belief in their consistency, and >>it's acceptability by your sensibilities, is an 'authority'. You've given >>them trust a priori. I prefer they earn it each and every time anew. No, that's not it: the only "trust" you give them comes with getting you on the first page in the first place, not what you come to think of it afterward. Surely you dont mean to say you never make choices of what to read based on something's potential value to you. Haven't you ever picked up a book because you anticipated enjoying it, started reading it, and put it down when you realized the methodology was flawed or the scholarship was poor after all? If not, maybe you need to be more discriminate... I bet you have though, and aren't quite the non-judgemental tabula rasa your comments indicate. >>A personal note, I hate sequels. > Even reading this list, I'm sure there are people you read first and >people you skip totally...And how likely is it that the first 15 essays are excellent but they saved the crappy ones for 16 on? ha! >>Actualy I read just about every submission to the list, I don't in general >>pick viewpoints based on personality. The whole 'cult of personality' crap >>makes me queezy. Agh, not personality, it comes back to the matter of not wasting time: Some people seldom have anything to say that I find remotely interesting, so I've learned it's in my best interest to skip them. On the other hand, some people put really put some effort into their contributions and write in a relevant and thoughtful way--so when I'm pressed for time, (as I usually am) I read them first. If the subject is important enough I'll read all the comments, but otherwise it gets prioritized, like everything else. And none of this has the slightest thing to do with whether or not I agree with or like someone. Jeez, who haven't I argued with here... >As to essays, I find it a rare author who writes 15 pages, let alone 15 >essays, I don't find problems with. If you can read a >book and go through an entire chapter without saying "wait just a damn >minute..." then you're either not absorbing what is being said, you are >reading material that is already in line with your views/expectations, or >else it's 'fluff'. Absolutely. I just happen to think you can have the highest degree of respect for someone's work you don't agree with, and that people you do agree with shouldn't get a free pass. Check the archives, that's basically what I've said all along. >I'll make an observation, at the risk of offending sensibilities, from >your past commentary you look for work that goes along with what you >believe/want. Look for? There's reading and then there's recommending. ;) > Myself, I tend to go places where I'm the minority (this >mailing list being an example) because the dialog is much more >invigorating than sitting in a bunch of people who already agree with me. Oy vey, that's what I've already said... I don't think anyone would exactly characterize my views as representative of the list as a whole either. Or maybe you don't see it, being focused on your own "me versus the list" dynamic, eh? > All I'm saying is that his background credentials and published work was > every bit as impressive the performance at the meeting...and that one of > his essays is on the list. :) Now with a backstory like that, you > actually mean to tell me I don't have a good reason to look forward to > reading it? HA! >Actually it demostrates my thesis above. You had a view, you found his >view to be complementary (you agreed with everything he said), No, not at all actually. Believe it or not, I'm not so arrogant and self- assured that I have to agree with someone to be able to admit when they've got their opposition thoroughly outclassed in terms of sheer knowledge of the subject. Unlike other people in the room, the topic wasn't something I was heavily invested in in terms of reputation, career etc: anyone who tries to deny that makes a difference in how open-minded they are is fooling themselves. But everthing about the way he conducted himself presenting his arguments merited respect. If you can't change your mind in the face of new evidence, you're too dogmatic, not intellectually flexible enough. Sure, he influenced me, where's the shame in admitting that. Learning from someone doesnt mean you gave up your own independent judgement. And I'd rather change my mind than be an ignorant blockhead stuck in an ideological rut. Like far too many I'm sure we both could name. >and now you pursue that. Me, I'd hunt for the holes in his theory/argument >(and I guarantee they are there). Of course. And if it were my main area of interest, you can bet he'd be the first person I'd go to to argue with and sound my own theories out on. I'll save the second half for tomorrow... ~Faustine. From movwater at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 29 17:39:39 2001 From: movwater at bellsouth.net (Neal J. Lang) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:39:39 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <01C1186E.975E66A0.movwater@bellsouth.net> E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang Hi, Pete, I was forwarded your e-mail on the above subject by Pete Mancus. As I was not an original recipient, I hope you don't consider my response impertinent. I read with interest (and sadness) your July 27th letter satirically belittling the National Rifle Association for celebrating arguably the "most important" political coup on behalf of the "individual right to keep and bear arms" in the last 8 years. I hope you don't find my corrective reply to be a flame, as I do not intend it to be taken as such. I respect you and your efforts on behalf of "the cause" too much. This current epistle, while I believe errant, evidences the "passions" and "wit" that make all your correspondence a "joy" for those "true believers" who clearly see the "truth and the light". However, the underlying concept that the NRA is "counter-productive" (and thereby, by implication, undeserving of our support) is wrong. I'll tell you why. First, your position (along with others) seems to suggest that the battle to restore our "unalienable rights" can be won without compromise. This position suggests that our Federal government and its Constitution were founded on "principles" that could never be compromised. Obviously, Dave, history tells a different story. After all, our founders, after engaging in a desperate struggle with the most powerful empire on earth over "principles" eloquently expressed in the "Declaration of Independence" instituted a government by ratifying a Constitution that codifies a "compromise" allowing slavery. A Nation born on the idea that "all men our created equal" allowed a government based on the "constitutional principle" that certain "man" count only a as "3/5th persons" and "untaxed" Native Americans don't count at all. Compared to the founders' "constitutional compromise" on "slavery", the NRA's giving ground on "Brady" in order to demand an "Insta-Check" and a "ban" on the government retaining records of purchasers is really quite minor. Interestingly, by including these provisions in "Brady", we have today a situation whereby America's chief lawman, General Ashcroft, can insist that records illegally retained by the FBI for 180 (or more) days, must be destroyed with 24 hours under the "rule of law". I see this as a "glass half-full", Dave, not "half-empty". If the NRA did not have a place at the table to get demand this compromise, we would today be "truly" experiencing "totally unacceptable delays" in firearms purchases, along with a "permanent registry" of firearms buyers. To think that "Brady" would not have passed, despite NRA opposition, without these important compromises is quite delusional, IMMHO. The assault on Attorney General Ashcroft by "Constitutional zealots" is also quite delusional as well, IMMHO. To say that one believes in the "infallibility" of the U.S. Constitution and therefore I condemn the Nation's highest law enforcement officer for saying that he will serve his constitutional role by enforcing the law, is really quite illogical. If you understand the Constitution, you will see that it did nothing more the "institute a government". The form of government instituted was a "republic", a where everyone, "the People" as well as the "magistrates" must obey the law. Our constitution established three distinct branches, each with different authority and responsibility. Article. I. Section. 1. - "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." Article. II. Section. 3. - "(H)e (the President) shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed..." Article III. Section. 1. - "The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish." Article III. Section. 2. - "(T)he supreme Court shall have appellate Jur isdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make." The Executive branch, of which General Ashcroft is a member, must "faithfully execute" the laws that are passed by the Legislative Branch and adjudicated by Judicial branch. When one of President Clinton's "White House Counsels" gleefully exclaimed, "Stroke of the pen, force of law, NEAT!" - we, the believers of Constitutional law, were justifiably horrified. Why than are we so quick to object to the Attorney General when he states the obvious. He MUST uphold the law. He cannot on his own usurp the authority of either the Congress or the Courts. In this he is living his oath of office and serving as an example of the kind of "true Original Intent" that has not been seen in Washington in at least 12 years, if not longer. The fact that he bravely committed his Department to the "true" meaning of the 2nd Amendment as an "individual right" should be the cause of great celebrations throughout our country by those of us who believe that "the People" in fact means individuals. Instead we "parse" his words and de-ride him for keeping his oath of office by "faithfully executing" the Federal code he inherited. Shooting organizations should be today renaming "Practical Shooting Matches" after this courageous American and hero of the 2nd Amendment. Dave, the undermining of our rights begins when governmental officials forget we have a government of laws. Our founders thought that Congress, not the Attorney General should make the laws of our country. General Ashcroft agrees. Historically, the Courts determine the Constitutionality our laws, not the Attorney General. General Ashcroft agrees. I think you should celebrate this victory, not commiserate when a public official recognizes it. I am glade you still retain your "life membership" in the NRA. However, as a member, I am not sure you can see how this GREAT organization fits in the scheme of the defense of our "unalienable rights" in the reality of 21st America. Personally, I believe neither the NRA, the Constitution, POTUS, the Attorney General, Congress, nor the Supreme Court have any bearing on the actual existence of any my "unalienable rights". I sleep peacefully every night in the knowledge that while my government may have the "power" to kill me, it does not have the "authority" to "separate me from these rights". In fact, I, myself, cannot even "give away" these "unalienable rights" if I wanted to - else they would not be "unalienable". The struggle to insure these rights "politically" in the "good old" U.S. of A. must be fought on at least three fronts. These fronts are: 1. The Judicial - overturning existing "bad laws" in the Courts. This requires the nomination of good judges that understand the meaning of republic and the simple plan English of the U.S. Constitution. 2. The Legislative - passing new laws that correct existing "bad laws" and promote expansion of our 2nd Amendment rights to the States and local governments. This would be similar to the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960. This requires electing good Representatives that understand the Constitutional limits imposed on Congress. 3. The Promotional - to insure the appropriate "public relations" climate to insure items 1. and 2. This involves also election the "right" public officials to nominate the "right" kind of Justices and to pass the "right" kind of legislation. I submit, Dave, that the NRA is carrying the battle on these three most effectively. After all, being rated the "Most Influential" lobby in Washington indicates to me that the NRA is nothing if it is not effective. To fault the NRA in the absence of a more effective means of defending our rights is quite easy. If you analyze the "political" battlefield were meaning and effect of the 2nd Amendment as it stands today is being determined, you will find that: 1. Congress, as a whole, does not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the NRA, for that matter. For this reason the NRA legislative strategy since 1968 has been a "rear guard" action. Through "political compromise" they attempted (and for the most part succeeded) to blunt the more onerous Federal and State laws invading our 2nd Amendment rights. 2. The Courts, in general, and the U.S. Supreme Court, in particular, do not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the NRA, for that matter. Through lifetime, "good Behaviour" tenure, most judges are "immune" to "politics". However, before their confirmations, the NRA can and does have some influence in the selection, nomination and confirmation of these Judges. Additionally, in very well prepared and persuasive "Amicus Briefs", the NRA helps promote an "unalienable, individual" 2nd Amendment Right in the courts. In fact, a fair reading of their Amicus Curiae in Emerson would indicate that NRA position on Lautenberg parallels mine (and maybe yours?) - (it can be read at: http://www.saf.org/NRAbrief.htm ) - despite how you have painted it in your letter. 3. The public at large ("the People" of the Constitution) generally does not see the 2nd Amendment the same as you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the NRA, for that matter. This is our "PR gap". I think the NRA has been most effective on this front in the "battle", as well. While accepting their inevitable defeat in Congressional on the "Assault Weapons Ban", in 1994 the NRA came back with a "vengeance" that helped account for one of the most historic political "turnarounds" in U.S. history, giving control of Congress to the more "2nd Amendment friendly" Republicans. This caused our "true" enemies to institute those IRS audits about which you write in revenge for NRA part in their worse 20th Century political loss. Do I wish we lived in a utopia where all gun owners truly understood their rights and voted? You bet. But the sad truth is, Dave, many gun owners haven't a clue, and many of those that do, don't bother to vote. This is the "real world" in which the NRA is attempting to "hold the line". Do they make mistakes? Of course they do. But on balance, IMMHO, without NRA we would be today looking at British-like total bans on all firearms. If you are fair, I think you will agree. While we need to help this organization to "stay on the mark", we also must recognize their tremendous contribution. As such we must be careful not to destroy this truly effective and necessary organization, as we attempt to promote the "true" meaning of "unalienable rights". I fear, my friend, that sometimes passionate words, even amongst friends and "true believers", can also be damaging and counter-productive. One reason, Dave, I enjoy so much your "in your face" correspondence directed at the real "forces of evil" is the passion you display in "fighting the good fight". I love the way you verbally "hold them by their nose while you kick their ass". However, that said, I also think when addressing the "choir", some check on passion in the direction of presenting the "all the facts" might be the "order of the day". While "tearing down" is sometimes necessary in order to "build-up", care must be used when instructing on "enemy recognition". A fair reading of this latest epistle of yours has the NRA as the "enemy". IMMHO, Dave, they are not. If enough of NRA members that truly respect you take you at your word, serious damage will be done to the NRA and also to our "right to keep and bear arms". If that happens, the opportunity to re-take our "rights" on the three fronts of the Legislative; the Judiciary and the Public Opinion will be lost leaving only one "Civil War" as the only available option. I don't think I need to remind you, my friend, that the last "Civil War", killed more Americans that all the conflicts we were involved in - combined. Remember, Dave, when it comes to "2nd Amendment rights", we will, in fact, "all hang separately, if we can't hang together". Keep the Faith, Neal Neal J. Lang (Signed) E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net From hostmaster at dot-god.com Sun Jul 29 21:14:01 2001 From: hostmaster at dot-god.com (The dot.GOD Registry, Limited) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 21:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Information requested for .GOD Domain Message-ID: <200107300414.f6U4E1t26600@dot-god.dot-god.COM> Someone, hopefully you, has requested all passwords for GOD domains associated with the email address cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com. You must now visit our web site to pickup your password(s). Your will need your email address and the validation ticket number provided here to complete that task. EMAIL: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com TICKET: 60008b7b299646194702 Please click on the following URL to activate get your password(s) now. https://secure.dot-god.com/god.nic/getpassword.cgi?cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com=60008b7b299646194702 Or if the above URL does not work (some email systems may crop the URL) then please visit: https://secure.dot-god.com/cgi-bin/getpassword.cgi and enter the following information manually at the prompt: EMAIL: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com TICKET: 60008b7b299646194702 IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN SECURITY THE ABOVE URL AND TICKET NUMBER WILL ONLY WORK ONCE. If you need to pickup passwords again you must visit: https://secure.dot-god.com/god.nic/lostpassword.cgi Regards hostmaster at dot-god.com http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Sreet New York, New York, 10019 US From declan at well.com Sun Jul 29 19:06:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:06:07 -0400 Subject: FC: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas Message-ID: Politechnicals may remember that Attorney General Ashcroft personally approved my subpoena in the Jim Bell case. Federal prosecutor Robb London threatened to subpoena other reporters writing about developments in U.S. v. Bell (such as interviewing the defendant) in an apparent and reprehensible attempt to dissuade them from covering the trial. Background: http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/ Other coverage of this case: http://www.rcfp.org/news/2001/0725inregr.html Excerpt from USA Today article: >The hearing was closed to the public at the government's request. The >transcript remains sealed. Even the name of the judge who sentenced her >for contempt of court has not been made public. --- Declan, I thought that the politech mailing list would be interested in this. If you have already discussed please disregard. Also please keep this mailbox anon if you post it. Thanks for your great work! http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/july01/2001-07-27-ashcroft-journalists-usat.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- From declan at well.com Sun Jul 29 19:13:41 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:13:41 -0400 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas Message-ID: <20010729221341.A6487@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From mikeeduzit at haretoday.com Sun Jul 29 19:45:40 2001 From: mikeeduzit at haretoday.com (mikeeduzit at haretoday.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:45:40 -0400 Subject: The Scale Moved........ 29352 Message-ID: <000047514662$0000479f$000072a8@mail2.haretoday.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4907 bytes Desc: not available URL: From codrea4 at home.com Sun Jul 29 22:47:34 2001 From: codrea4 at home.com (David and Maureen Codrea) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:47:34 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? References: <01C1186E.975E66A0.movwater@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <009301c118bb$24e4a600$d9200518@rdondo1.ca.home.com> Hi Neal, Lemme get a few disclaimers out of the way before I begin: #1- I don't know everyone on your list. I went ahead and "replied to all" because I am assuming there is interest, and because it is my shady virtue that is being questioned here...:-) If any of you have no desire to be part of this exchange, please accept my apologies for intruding into your e-lives. Let me know and I will see that you are not included in further discussions. #2- I have added a couple other folks who I think may have an interest in this. Again, if I am being presumptuous, please just send me a "drop dead" flame and throw a brick through my window, and I will leave you off any future exchange. #3- I generally don't have a lot of time for back-and-forth one-on-one debating- I find my time more productively spent on my own agenda items, and what with all the other limitations and demands, I may or may not be able to get back to rebuttals or additional emails from others in a timely or comprehensive manner. I sure don't want to get into an endless exchange over this, as there are so many productive venues. ---- Let me begin by saying I do not consider your legitimate concerns to be a flame. I'm a big boy and can take my lumps, and you have been most...ummm...politic in stating your reservations and explaining the reasoning behind them. You have a right to your say. I'm also sorry if I made you "sad." I don't know if it's gonna be productive to take ALL the points of my piece and ALL the points of your reply and interlineate comments and rebuttals. I especially don't think it would be a very interesting read- I think, instead, it would quickly devolve into something fragmented, and very hard to follow. So I'd like to address this in generalities, with the further qualification that I'm not out to try and score points at your expense, or even to convince you that I am right and you are wrong; I can walk away from this knowing that we disagree and still think highly of you. In fact, I have heard the arguments you pose, in one form or another, before, so I don't think my mind is going to change on this- and I cede to you the same. I began talking about NRA ratings. I think it has been pretty well documented that they have on occasion given high ratings to politicians who haven't necessarily earned them in the hope of establishing good will. I have also seen the opposite occur, that is, a 2nd Amendment champion like Ron Paul being downgraded NOT for his stance on 2A purity, but rather because he opposed legislation being promoted by NRA. Surely, Neal, you will not argue that Mary Bono is the equal to Ron Paul in terms of Constitutional fidelity? Pragmatism aside, which rating system do you think best exemplifies original intent: NRA's or GOA's? And would you at least acknowledge describing Trent Lott as "stalwart" on the 2A is, at best, hyperbole? In re Mr. Ashcroft, I believe if you look again, you will see that I did not mention him at all, but rather, composed my rant in response to a thread that did. I think the omission of his qualifying statement in re "compelling state interest" in the official NRA journal has one of two credible explanations: incompetence, or suppression of information. As I don't "know" why it happened, I really cannot speculate further in any fairness. That said, I do stipulate that he is no Janet Reno, and I am encouraged by some of his statements, as well as disappointed by others. You are correct that his proper function is to enforce the law; I would submit that the supreme law of the land is clear, and that precedent established in Marbury v Madison relegates anything in conflict with this null and void. In re NRA practices and tactics, I have never seen a stockholders' report or a proxy ballot where management urged owners to vote AGAINST a slate of candidates. That such ads were paid for by private parties does not diminish the fact that they appeared alongside official ballots. In re gun laws that have been passed on the "winning team's" watch, you may be right that we would have seen much more draconian increments had the NRA monolith not provided a breakwater. Then again, one can only speculate had overreaching socialists tried compressing 25 years of citizen disarmament into a shorter period; perhaps it would have horrified sleeping gun owners and galvanized them into individual, spirited activism, and to organize behind a fiercely uncompromising banner. Perhaps this would have scared our attackers off. But we will never know- all we can see is what has transpired, and I fear the heat has been turned up so slowly that the frog may never escape the pot. In re "Project Exile," I have not seen a substantiated rebuttal to any of the points I made, especially in re the activist I cited urging that they instead adopt "enforce existing violent crime laws". So I'll just ask a simple question or four: Where in the Constitution has the fedgov been delegated the enumerated power to enforce ANY gun laws? Wouldn't the Constitutionally-consistent position be to repeal these laws? Isn't such enforcement precisely what precipitated Waco and Ruby Ridge? And if phrased more precisely, would you and NRA management advocate enforcing existing CITIZEN DISARMAMENT laws? In re your premise on pragmatism and compromise, as you have pointed out, our Constitution was ratified through exactly that means. But the compromise already happened. I hear you about the Civil War, but have to ask you at what point would you say such rebellion might be justified, and a preferable alternative to tyranny? Believe me, I do understand compromise and do it every day, as do we all; I think the difference here is one of tolerance threshold more than principle. And please don't think I am offering my poor self up for comparison, but we need people to speak loudly on uncompromised principle; you would not have urged Samuel Adams or Patrick Henry to moderate, would you, Neal? And we know that the Republic we got was nowhere near the ideal these men strived for, due to compromise, but wit hout their strident voices stirring sentiment in a sufficiently critical mass, how much more might it have been compromised? I don't know where your line in the sand would be to engage in civil disobedience, or to physically resist, and I certainly would never presume to challenge your convictions on that- but I am curious as to where exactly you would say there can be no more compromise? If you have read my stuff, you'll see I'm pretty consistent at advising that a time for physical engagement is not (yet) upon us, as there are still means of redress available; I therefore urge people to work within our system, not only because it is pragmatic, but because it is a moral imperative that we exhaust available resources before resorting to more drastic measures. But as much of a firebrand as you think my rant made me appear, it is not I who held a gun up in front of a crowd and challenged "From my cold dead hands!" What do you think Mr. Heston meant by that? Was it entirely symbolic, or do you think he would urge NRA management supporters to shoot and kill government agents attempting to disarm them? By the same token, where I have engaged in civil defiance, I have done so because the chances of such recourse are questionable, and the violation of rights by "officials" has been so blatant and repugnant: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397d8e1c3a66.htm I believe, Neal, that right now, under certain circumstances, civil resistance is warranted, and California's "assault weapons" ban certainly seems to be a "reasonable" place to just say "no." I don't so much see this position as one of civil diobedience as much as obedience to the supreme law of the land over an unconstitutional, thus null and void, perversion of the law. Yet it was NRA presenting the DoJ reps as people they can work with, proud of their cordial relations, and mindful that the reps did not "have" to come and address us- the folks whose leader holds up a musket and dares you to kill him were facilitating our surrender without a fight. But of course the DoJ did have to be there- because they were there to dictate the terms of our surrender, and they wanted desperately to convince us that they were serious about enforcing this "law"- after all, they, again, desperately, didn't want to see transpire exactly what has- massive noncompliance, making them look impotent. I am proud to have added my voice to this, and would be pleased no end to think that it may have given others some sense that they were not alone, that there is strength in numbers, and that we must steel ourselves from caving. Anyway, that's about all I'm good for on this- I wrote way more than I set out to- I really don't like working this way, as I'm pretty anal about revising and rewriting my stuff a jillion times before releasing it- a rule I broke in the rant that precipitated this- but you posed some fair observations and deserve to have your concerns at least addressed, if not resolved. I really don't know if I'll be up to another long rebuttal, so I may or may not be able to give you satisfaction on future installments of this thread- there is only so much time in my day for this, and I've just exhausted it- tomorrow brings a new set of priorities. But this has been good for me- extemporaneous responses help to hone our skills against our mutual opponents. Thanks for your thoughtful correspondence and best regards. I look forward to our continued communications, and to hanging together, but not hanging together, if ya get my drift... Cordially, David Codrea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal J. Lang" To: "David Codrea (E-mail)" Cc: "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 5:39 PM Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang > > Hi, Pete, > I was forwarded your e-mail on the above subject by Pete Mancus. As I was > not an original recipient, I hope you don't consider my response > impertinent. > I read with interest (and sadness) your July 27th letter satirically > belittling the National Rifle Association for celebrating arguably the > "most important" political coup on behalf of the "individual right to keep > and bear arms" in the last 8 years. > I hope you don't find my corrective reply to be a flame, as I do not intend > it to be taken as such. I respect you and your efforts on behalf of "the > cause" too much. > This current epistle, while I believe errant, evidences the "passions" and > "wit" that make all your correspondence a "joy" for those "true believers" > who clearly see the "truth and the light". However, the underlying concept > that the NRA is "counter-productive" (and thereby, by implication, > undeserving of our support) is wrong. I'll tell you why. > First, your position (along with others) seems to suggest that the battle > to restore our "unalienable rights" can be won without compromise. This > position suggests that our Federal government and its Constitution were > founded on "principles" that could never be compromised. > Obviously, Dave, history tells a different story. After all, our > founders, after engaging in a desperate struggle with the most powerful > empire on earth over "principles" eloquently expressed in the "Declaration > of Independence" instituted a government by ratifying a Constitution that > codifies a "compromise" allowing slavery. A Nation born on the idea that > "all men our created equal" allowed a government based on the > "constitutional principle" that certain "man" count only a as "3/5th > persons" and "untaxed" Native Americans don't count at all. > Compared to the founders' "constitutional compromise" on "slavery", the > NRA's giving ground on "Brady" in order to demand an "Insta-Check" and a > "ban" on the government retaining records of purchasers is really quite > minor. Interestingly, by including these provisions in "Brady", we have > today a situation whereby America's chief lawman, General Ashcroft, can > insist that records illegally retained by the FBI for 180 (or more) days, > must be destroyed with 24 hours under the "rule of law". I see this as a > "glass half-full", Dave, not "half-empty". If the NRA did not have a place > at the table to get demand this compromise, we would today be "truly" > experiencing "totally unacceptable delays" in firearms purchases, along > with a "permanent registry" of firearms buyers. To think that "Brady" > would not have passed, despite NRA opposition, without these important > compromises is quite delusional, IMMHO. > The assault on Attorney General Ashcroft by "Constitutional zealots" is > also quite delusional as well, IMMHO. To say that one believes in the > "infallibility" of the U.S. Constitution and therefore I condemn the > Nation's highest law enforcement officer for saying that he will serve his > constitutional role by enforcing the law, is really quite illogical. If > you understand the Constitution, you will see that it did nothing more the > "institute a government". The form of government instituted was a > "republic", a where everyone, "the People" as well as the "magistrates" > must obey the law. > Our constitution established three distinct branches, each with different > authority and responsibility. > Article. I. Section. 1. - "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be > vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate > and House of Representatives." > Article. II. Section. 3. - "(H)e (the President) shall take Care that the > Laws be faithfully executed..." > Article III. Section. 1. - "The judicial Power of the United States shall > be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress > may from time to time ordain and establish." > Article III. Section. 2. - "(T)he supreme Court shall have appellate Jur > isdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such > Regulations as the Congress shall make." > The Executive branch, of which General Ashcroft is a member, must > "faithfully execute" the laws that are passed by the Legislative Branch and > adjudicated by Judicial branch. When one of President Clinton's "White > House Counsels" gleefully exclaimed, "Stroke of the pen, force of law, > NEAT!" - we, the believers of Constitutional law, were justifiably > horrified. Why than are we so quick to object to the Attorney General when > he states the obvious. He MUST uphold the law. He cannot on his own usurp > the authority of either the Congress or the Courts. In this he is living > his oath of office and serving as an example of the kind of "true Original > Intent" that has not been seen in Washington in at least 12 years, if not > longer. > The fact that he bravely committed his Department to the "true" meaning of > the 2nd Amendment as an "individual right" should be the cause of great > celebrations throughout our country by those of us who believe that "the > People" in fact means individuals. Instead we "parse" his words and > de-ride him for keeping his oath of office by "faithfully executing" the > Federal code he inherited. Shooting organizations should be today renaming > "Practical Shooting Matches" after this courageous American and hero of the > 2nd Amendment. > Dave, the undermining of our rights begins when governmental officials > forget we have a government of laws. Our founders thought that Congress, > not the Attorney General should make the laws of our country. General > Ashcroft agrees. Historically, the Courts determine the Constitutionality > our laws, not the Attorney General. General Ashcroft agrees. I think you > should celebrate this victory, not commiserate when a public official > recognizes it. > I am glade you still retain your "life membership" in the NRA. However, as > a member, I am not sure you can see how this GREAT organization fits in the > scheme of the defense of our "unalienable rights" in the reality of 21st > America. > Personally, I believe neither the NRA, the Constitution, POTUS, the > Attorney General, Congress, nor the Supreme Court have any bearing on the > actual existence of any my "unalienable rights". I sleep peacefully every > night in the knowledge that while my government may have the "power" to > kill me, it does not have the "authority" to "separate me from these > rights". In fact, I, myself, cannot even "give away" these "unalienable > rights" if I wanted to - else they would not be "unalienable". > The struggle to insure these rights "politically" in the "good old" U.S. of > A. must be fought on at least three fronts. These fronts are: > 1. The Judicial - overturning existing "bad laws" in the Courts. This > requires the nomination of good judges that understand the meaning of > republic and the simple plan English of the U.S. Constitution. > 2. The Legislative - passing new laws that correct existing "bad laws" and > promote expansion of our 2nd Amendment rights to the States and local > governments. This would be similar to the Civil Rights legislation of the > 1960. This requires electing good Representatives that understand the > Constitutional limits imposed on Congress. > 3. The Promotional - to insure the appropriate "public relations" climate > to insure items 1. and 2. This involves also election the "right" public > officials to nominate the "right" kind of Justices and to pass the "right" > kind of legislation. > I submit, Dave, that the NRA is carrying the battle on these three most > effectively. After all, being rated the "Most Influential" lobby in > Washington indicates to me that the NRA is nothing if it is not effective. > To fault the NRA in the absence of a more effective means of defending our > rights is quite easy. If you analyze the "political" battlefield were > meaning and effect of the 2nd Amendment as it stands today is being > determined, you will find that: > 1. Congress, as a whole, does not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or > the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the NRA, for that matter. For this reason the NRA > legislative strategy since 1968 has been a "rear guard" action. Through > "political compromise" they attempted (and for the most part succeeded) to > blunt the more onerous Federal and State laws invading our 2nd Amendment > rights. > 2. The Courts, in general, and the U.S. Supreme Court, in particular, do > not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the > NRA, for that matter. Through lifetime, "good Behaviour" tenure, most > judges are "immune" to "politics". However, before their confirmations, > the NRA can and does have some influence in the selection, nomination and > confirmation of these Judges. Additionally, in very well prepared and > persuasive "Amicus Briefs", the NRA helps promote an "unalienable, > individual" 2nd Amendment Right in the courts. In fact, a fair reading of > their Amicus Curiae in Emerson would indicate that NRA position on > Lautenberg parallels mine (and maybe yours?) - (it can be read at: > http://www.saf.org/NRAbrief.htm ) - despite how you have painted it in your > letter. > 3. The public at large ("the People" of the Constitution) generally does > not see the 2nd Amendment the same as you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or > the NRA, for that matter. This is our "PR gap". I think the NRA has been > most effective on this front in the "battle", as well. While accepting > their inevitable defeat in Congressional on the "Assault Weapons Ban", in > 1994 the NRA came back with a "vengeance" that helped account for one of > the most historic political "turnarounds" in U.S. history, giving control > of Congress to the more "2nd Amendment friendly" Republicans. This caused > our "true" enemies to institute those IRS audits about which you write in > revenge for NRA part in their worse 20th Century political loss. > Do I wish we lived in a utopia where all gun owners truly understood their > rights and voted? You bet. But the sad truth is, Dave, many gun owners > haven't a clue, and many of those that do, don't bother to vote. This is > the "real world" in which the NRA is attempting to "hold the line". Do > they make mistakes? Of course they do. But on balance, IMMHO, without NRA > we would be today looking at British-like total bans on all firearms. If > you are fair, I think you will agree. > While we need to help this organization to "stay on the mark", we also must > recognize their tremendous contribution. As such we must be careful not to > destroy this truly effective and necessary organization, as we attempt to > promote the "true" meaning of "unalienable rights". I fear, my friend, > that sometimes passionate words, even amongst friends and "true believers", > can also be damaging and counter-productive. > One reason, Dave, I enjoy so much your "in your face" correspondence > directed at the real "forces of evil" is the passion you display in > "fighting the good fight". I love the way you verbally "hold them by their > nose while you kick their ass". However, that said, I also think when > addressing the "choir", some check on passion in the direction of > presenting the "all the facts" might be the "order of the day". While > "tearing down" is sometimes necessary in order to "build-up", care must be > used when instructing on "enemy recognition". > A fair reading of this latest epistle of yours has the NRA as the "enemy". > IMMHO, Dave, they are not. If enough of NRA members that truly respect > you take you at your word, serious damage will be done to the NRA and also > to our "right to keep and bear arms". If that happens, the opportunity to > re-take our "rights" on the three fronts of the Legislative; the Judiciary > and the Public Opinion will be lost leaving only one "Civil War" as the > only available option. I don't think I need to remind you, my friend, that > the last "Civil War", killed more Americans that all the conflicts we were > involved in - combined. > Remember, Dave, when it comes to "2nd Amendment rights", we will, in fact, > "all hang separately, if we can't hang together". > Keep the Faith, > > Neal > Neal J. Lang (Signed) > E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net > > > From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Jul 29 23:03:16 2001 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 23:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Ohio "Thought Crime?" In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Gaylor" at Jul 30, 2001 12:46:23 AM Message-ID: <200107300603.f6U63GS22960@artifact.psychedelic.net> Matt writes: > An Ohio man, a convicted child molester, has been sent to prison for > seven years for writing fantasies of torturing children in his > personal journal. I thought his prior conviction was for the same thing, "pandering child pornography," which given that Ohio also criminalizes all nude pictures, as well as textual "depictions" of the sexual activity of minors, may also be largely bullshit. > By all accounts, these writings were repulsive. By the local community standards of Ohio, perhaps. I doubt Nifty needs to worry about the competition. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From freematt at coil.com Sun Jul 29 21:46:23 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:46:23 -0400 Subject: POLL: Ohio "Thought Crime?" Message-ID: From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Mon Jul 30 04:26:13 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 04:26:13 -0700 Subject: General Ashcroft make his move Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E067797@MISSERVER> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July issue also has an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not quote the rather lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible image of BOTH pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of the footnote. This is hardly the action of an organization bent on distorting Ashcroft's view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the part of the America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an organization-wide conspiracy. Jonathan Wienke - -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Gaylor [mailto:freematt at coil.com] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:01 PM To: George at Orwellian.Org Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: General Ashcroft make his move [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Richard Stevens is author of the recent book "Dial 911 and Die" published by the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. http://www.jpfo.org ] From jacke_t_fost at hotmail.com Sun Jul 29 19:50:13 2001 From: jacke_t_fost at hotmail.com (Switty Williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:50:13 +0300 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200107300544.f6U5iaJ03343@rigel.cyberpass.net> Hello my dear Love!!! I'm lost You email, but i'm find with help of my brother, he's cool hacker :)) You can find gallery of photos that I offered here: http://www.geocities.com/spxpdroid/index.html Bye chmok.... love, Switty...... From MakeMoneyNow at gmx.ch Sun Jul 29 16:09:26 2001 From: MakeMoneyNow at gmx.ch (BulletProofMarketing) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:09:26 +0700 Subject: Tired of KILLING yourself promoting programs that pay just once ? Message-ID: <200107292309.QAA14773@toad.com> Hi cypherpunks at toad.com, Are you ready to hear the cold hard facts about internet marketing? http://BulletProofMarketing.IsTheBe.st The TRUTH is sometimes hard to swallow and is in VERY short supply on the internet! Now you can put this to an end and RETIRE in 6 months! * Want to make $5,000/mo. within 60 days using proven methods that work? NO BULL! * Tired of KILLING yourself promoting programs that pay just once? * Want to make MORE and MORE while you do LESS and LESS? * Want to live worry free while THOUSANDS of other people build YOUR business? * Want to send out 20,000 TARGETED up-to-date emails DAILY? Click here when you're ready for some real money! http://BulletProofMarketing.IsTheBe.st Don't be left behind... ACT NOW! Sincerely, Jerome Chapman BulletProof Marketing Direct Consulting for the home-biz entrepreneurial type. From dial911book at yahoo.com Mon Jul 30 07:51:00 2001 From: dial911book at yahoo.com (Richard Stevens) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E067799@MISSERVER> Message-ID: <20010730145100.58844.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July > issue also has > an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not > quote the rather > lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible > image of BOTH > pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of > the footnote. This > is hardly the action of an organization bent on > distorting Ashcroft's > view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the > part of the > America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an > organization-wide > conspiracy. > > Jonathan Wienke > Mr. Wienke, I paged through the entire July 2001 issue of American Rifleman, and maybe I'm just blind as the proverbial bat, but I don't see the article to which you refer that quotes the entire Ashcroft letter. On what page is it? The July 2001 issue of First Freedom is the one featuring the Ashcroft letter -- that I have received thus far. On the point you raise: maybe it was merely a bad editorial decision for the one magazine. Fine, and we can forgive that. But, ask this question: in what kind of workplace environment could this kind of editing decision be made? Remember that more than one editor had to approve the final copy. This is not just a typo. More than one person had to consciously decide to omit relevant material without telling the reader. I have to wonder if other sorts of "editing decisions" that massage the facts and distort the truth are being made ... and we readers don't know it. Maybe it was entirely innocent. Then NRA should promptly apologize, correct it and publish the full text in the following issue. Let's see if they do. --Richard Stevens __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 30 06:44:50 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:44:50 -0500 Subject: Russians test new missile (re Anti-ICBM Laser Aircraft) Message-ID: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20010730-13752166.htm James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From bear at sonic.net Mon Jul 30 09:09:57 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism + 802.11b access In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010728085733.008985a0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: >>Not a problem -- as long as what you're making available to the >>public at DefCon is not a program that script kiddies can download >>and use to break stuff. > >What's a 'program' in the above sentence? Is source a program? Source >without the main() and #includes? Source with an intentionally missing ';'? >Precise english description of an algorithm? Math? What exactly >are the limits of a 'script kiddie'? Oh, please, let's not get into specious crap. I'm totally familiar with the concept that "source code" is considered by some to be a gray area. To me, the distinction is relatively clear. Source code is what enables someone to do X whether or not they understand X. You don't have to understand the weaknesses in a cryptosystem to correct a few syntax errors, figure out what standard libraries to include, or do a conversion between different forms of the source with a perl script. I mean, the code could *help* you understand it, if you were inclined to read it for content -- but if you can get it working without understanding what it does, it probably violates the law. Communication, on the other hand, is what enables someone to *understand* X. And yes, a lot of people, myself included, can and do use source code to communicate ideas. Does it piss me off that this mode of communication is made unavailable by this law? Yes. Am I stupid enough to not figure out what the law means? No. >>Bear in mind that these people are not dealing from a position of >>strength, as long as their crypto is actually broken. > >Tell that to Dmitri. :-< Dmitri released an executable *before* he had the excuse of being required to produce it as evidence. Plus he's a foreign national on US soil, whose government is willing to be anally raped with a two-by-four if they think it will get them more US financial aid. They have evidently left him twisting in the wind. That is not a position of strength. Bear From petro at bounty.org Mon Jul 30 09:53:49 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:53:49 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:20 AM -0500 7/26/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > >> >> >a great majority of an LEO's "education" time is spent instructing them on >> >how to determine [decide] what is and is not constitutionally protected >> >{speech, action}. If they did not use this "ability", they would have to >> >arrest *everyone*, and let the courts sort out the mess. >> >> KNo, they would have to arrest everyone they witnessed (or >knew) committed an act that violated the law. > >You are confusing "civilians" and LEOs. Only civilians are held to the >personal knowledge standard. Leos are held to profoundly lower probablity >models. In order to arrest someone they have to have some sort of evidence that not only was a crime committed, but that the person they arrested has some reasonable probability of actually having committed that crime. Maybe "know" is a little strong, "suspect" is probably a better way of putting it. >> Other than said 4th amendment issues, street cops *rarely* get >> involved in constitutional issues. > >If you honestly believe this, then someone needs to beat the shit out of >you with a clueclub. By definition, LEOs are [daily] involved in all >issues, from 1-ad to no-ad... Nonsense. In a LARGE percentage of the stuff a police officer deals with, there are no constitutional issues (other than the 4th). Robbery, murder, drunk driving, and the vast majority of traffic violations there aren't many constitutional issues involved in the laws the enforce, there may be some issues in *how* they enforce them (4th, 5th, and 6th) but little on what they enforce. Rarely will you find a street cop, on his on initiative, making arrests in questionable areas (1st and 2nd). >> >And if you are at all familiar with the history of 2A case law, you >> >will understand why the SCOTUS has been so meticulous in avoiding a >> >ruling. Of course, our friends [hrmmm... Never thought I'd say THAT] in >> >Texas may well put an end to the charade soon. >> >> Still waiting to hear about the Emerson case (and the 5th is in >> New Orleans IIRC). Interesting "rumor" on this front. Don Kates spoke to a group of us on Thursday. He wrote an amicus brief for the Emerson case, and I asked him what if he'd heard anything about what was going on. According to him, rumor has it that one of the judges in that case is writing a long (150 pages was mentioned) decision. >> >> Well, no. See, the same constitution also grants Congress the >> >> power to regulate interstate trade, so as long as they don't "infringe" >> >> on the right, they have a wide latitude to set standards etc. Or do they? >> >> What are the limits of that particular clause? >> > >> >Virtually the entire 2A ablating federal infrastructure is based on a >> >truly scary "finding" that *any* firearm is the product of Intertate >> >Commerce, regardless if it has been out of the state in which it was >> >> Well, no. Only about 1/2 of the ablating. The other half is >> Congresses power to tax. (At the federal level a good number of >> firearms cases are on charges of failing to file and or pay the class >> 2 or 3 weapons tax stamp). > >Please document this assertion. 1/2 is just plain *wrong*. The tax >issues are restrictive, but not ablating, i.e., if you can afford the tax, >then, *in theory*, you have no problem. I am talking about totally [2A] >destructive laws, such as felons losing their RIGHT to ownership of >firearms, civilians losing their RIGHT to own "assault >weapons" (interesting note: it is still legal to collect missiles, but not >certain types of rifles - the idiocy continues). Here's how it works (and there is a case going on right now about this). The government says "you have to have a tax stamp to own ". Then doesn't provide you any mechanism to actually *get* that stamp. A portion (and I don't have the percentages, this comes from discussions with a local attorney active in Firearms Rights) of the firearms cases prosecuted at the federal level are prosecuted as tax violations. It is (allegedly) done this way to avoid second amendment issues. Since the Government has the constitutional power to tax, there is no problem. It may not be 1/2 of all cases, but it's 1/2 of all justifications, and a signigificant number of cases. > > > > > > > >> Further >more, what is *constitutionally* an infringement? > > >> >Als at the risk of going Choation, what part of "Shall not be >> >infringed" don't you understand? >> >> I understand "shall not", it's the "infringed" I'm asking about. >> >> Is it *really* an infringement on your rights to require >> firearms manufacturers to meet reasonable standards of functioning? > >Yes. Period. Now who's being Choatian? > >> Whether the free market can provide this or not is orthagonal to >> the question. > >No it is not: it is directly on point. There is NO constituional basis >for the government to be able to regulate firearms. Period. Whether for >"good", "bad", or indifferent. There is a very clear constitutional >mandate that any and all firearms be available to "the people" - >period. Any infringement, even if it is "for my own good" is >unconstituional on it's face. Nonsense. The second prevents *infringement* of the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't prevent *regulation*. It doesn't prohibit the setting of standards, or any one of a number of piddly little regulations. There is no mandate that any and all firearms be available. The second amendment was intended to insure that the citizens had the tools at their disposal to defend themselves and their land/town/city/state, and to provide a (somewhat final) check against a tyrannical government forming. It is not necessarily "any and all" firearms, just firearms that would be useful for those things (which amounts effectively to almost all firearms). It would probably not be unconstitutional for the Federal Government to insist that all arms produced or imported meet reliability standards so that anything you buy *can* be used such. Look at voting--it is perfectly legal and constitutional in most places to force someone to register before voting. To provide "is a real person" type ID. > > > > > >> Let's get even finer. > >> >> >> Do you *really* want your local beat cop to be making decisions >> >> on what does and doesn't fall into "protected speech" (or even whether >> >> there is a distinction there to be made?) >> >See above: it is by definition unavoidable. >> >> There are a lot of things that in a society are unavoidable. The >> question is whether those things should be encouraged or discouraged. >> >> My contention is that encouraging a LEO to decide for himself >> whether a law is constitutional or not is both wrong, and counter >> productive. > >Again, returning to the oath of office taken by LEOs: their FIRST >responsibility is to defend the CONSTITUTION. Not to follow orders. You >want mindless droids enforcing laws, you get the kind of defacto police >state we are living in now. You *should* be looking for THINKING *humans* >to be filling this position. Oh, I do want thinking humans in most positions. Given a choice, I'd rather have thinking people in the Legislature, where they laws they write protect our rights. Right? (sorry). I also want police who are going to provide--as much as possible--for uniform enforcement of the laws. There are times and places where an officer has to worry about whether his actions are going to violate someones rights--usually 4th and 5th (search and seizure, as well as self-incrimination) but it is my contention that this is only in *how* the laws are enforced, not *which* laws. >> >> It's happened in Chicago, and worse (see below). >> >> >> >> There are at least 3 states a law can be in vis-a-vis >> >> constitutionality: >> >> >> >> (1) Adjudged unconstitutional. >> >> (2) Adjudged constitutional. >> >> (3) Not adjudged relative to it's constitutionality. >> > >> >Irrelevent. We are not discussing abstract legal theory, we are >> >discussing factual implementation. >> >> Factual implementation, outside of dot-coms, should descend from >> theory. > >This is a nice academic pretence, but you are now dealing with The Real >World (tm). Things like the abstract "Reasonable Man" and "Common Good", >and the thousands of other interjections you could assert here, simply do >not apply. Save this shit for Philosophy Club. I never claimed that what I am arguing *is* real world, only that it *should* be. From tcmay at got.net Mon Jul 30 10:28:28 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:28:28 -0700 Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists Message-ID: I've noticed that about 90% of traffic to the Cypherpunks list, at least the slightly-filtered list at lne.com, is now one-line pointers to news on Yahoo, CNN, ABC, LA Times, and to articles on Slashdot, Politech, Extropians, Cryptography, and other such Net outlets. If I wanted to subscribed to Perrypunks, I'd do so. If I wanted to subscribe to Declanpunks, I'd do so. (In fact, I subscribe to one of Declan's lists, the Nym list. Alas, it seems to be mostly forwarded news items and pointers.) If I wanted to subscribe to Gaylorpunks, I'd do so. And I already see more Yahoo, ZDNet, CNET, and similar headlines and stories than the NSA has bits. Having dozens of other lists is all well and good, but there is no point in bouncing their stuff around. There are exceptions, as when some particularly urgent or clueful point is made. And even then it is best for the forwarder to at least take a few minutes to introduce the post and to comment on it. This shows that he's not just dumping pointers. (And when one of my articles is "helpfully forwarded" to one of these other of the dozens of such lists, I tend to get strange personal mail from people asking me what it is I'm talking about. Sometimes I bounce them info on subscribing to the Cypherpunks list, sometimes I just give them a couple of lines of explanation. And often I don't reply at all. I think most of the "pointers" are just symptoms of laziness. It looks like people just think "cross-pollinating" without analysis is the thing to do. My solution is to add more and more of you who do this to my filter files. When the average list traffic, minus advertising, spam, pointers to Yahoo, forwarded Politech items, etc. drops to less than 3 per day, then I can finally unsubscribe completely. --Tim May P.S. The worst situation is when N different lists are copied, many of them open for posting only to subscribers. Nothing worse than having an e-mail conversation spanning N different lists. -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 30 10:29:27 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:29:27 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime References: Message-ID: <001001c1191d$2fb21330$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petro" To: ; Cc: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime > At 7:20 AM -0500 7/26/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > > > >> > >> >a great majority of an LEO's "education" time is spent instructing them on > >> >how to determine [decide] what is and is not constitutionally protected > >> >{speech, action}. If they did not use this "ability", they would have to > >> >arrest *everyone*, and let the courts sort out the mess. > >> > >> KNo, they would have to arrest everyone they witnessed (or > >knew) committed an act that violated the law. > > > >You are confusing "civilians" and LEOs. Only civilians are held to the > >personal knowledge standard. Leos are held to profoundly lower probablity > >models. > > In order to arrest someone they have to have some sort of evidence that not only was a crime committed, but that the person they arrested has some reasonable probability of actually having committed that crime. Uh, no. If I were a duly appointed law enforcement official I could arrest you for the kind of shoes you were wearing. You'll have recourse eventually, but it will be after a 24 hour (or so) stay in the pokey and posting bail and hiring an attorney, and.... > Maybe "know" is a little strong, "suspect" is probably a better way of putting it. You're reaching for the criteria by which the legitimacy of the arrest will be judged ex post. The terms you are grappling to find are "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause." The point you are missing is that typically the only downside for the officer in making an "illegal arrest" is that the case will get tossed. Big deal. Probable cause to arrest exists where facts and circumstances within officers' knowledge and of which they had reasonably trustworthy information are sufficient in themselves to warrant a person of reasonable caution in the belief that an offense has been or is being committed; it is not necessary that the officer possess knowledge of acts sufficient to establish guilt, but more than mere suspicion is required. I suggest you attend 3 years of law school or otherwise educate yourself in the matter before presenting yourself as an authority on the issue and blathering off for paragraphs on end about nothing in particular. Sheesh, at least invest in a copy of black's law dictionary or something. It's common respect for the rest of the list members. > >> Other than said 4th amendment issues, street cops *rarely* get > >> involved in constitutional issues. > > > >If you honestly believe this, then someone needs to beat the shit out of > >you with a clueclub. By definition, LEOs are [daily] involved in all > >issues, from 1-ad to no-ad... > > Nonsense. In a LARGE percentage of the stuff a police officer deals with, there are no constitutional issues (other than the 4th). Robbery, murder, drunk driving, and the vast majority of traffic violations there aren't many constitutional issues involved in the laws the enforce, there may be some issues in *how* they enforce them (4th, 5th, and 6th) but little on what they enforce. There are constitutional issues in every interaction with police and citizens. The question is if they are raised or significant enough to be regarded in the judicial system. Probable cause to make an arrest is but one of the issues that is triggered on every arrest or other police action. > Rarely will you find a street cop, on his on initiative, making arrests in questionable areas (1st and 2nd). To you the only "questionable" areas are the 1st and 2nd amendments? Interesting. > >> >And if you are at all familiar with the history of 2A case law, you > >> >will understand why the SCOTUS has been so meticulous in avoiding a > >> >ruling. Of course, our friends [hrmmm... Never thought I'd say THAT] in > >> >Texas may well put an end to the charade soon. > >> > >> Still waiting to hear about the Emerson case (and the 5th is in > >> New Orleans IIRC). > > Interesting "rumor" on this front. Don Kates spoke to a group of us on Thursday. He wrote an amicus brief for the Emerson case, and I asked him what if he'd heard anything about what was going on. According to him, rumor has it that one of the judges in that case is writing a long (150 pages was mentioned) decision. [Firearms rights are being taken away by the power to tax... The power to tax is the power to destroy... McCulloch v. Maryland blah blah blah] > Here's how it works (and there is a case going on right now about this). The government says "you have to have a tax stamp to own ". Then doesn't provide you any mechanism to actually *get* that stamp. Chicago does this. It requires registration for all handguns. No registrations have been issued since the early 70s or so. It's been challenged over and over. It stands. And will. The rest of this drivel deleted. (Is Detweiller back or what? If so, he's violating his consent decree). From Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com Mon Jul 30 01:33:23 2001 From: Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com (Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:33:23 +0200 Subject: remove Message-ID: Un saludo Ignacio L獺zaro Fern獺ndez Tfno: 91-202 6052 ignacio.lazaro at quierotv.com Quiero Televisi籀n, S.A. From Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com Mon Jul 30 01:33:49 2001 From: Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com (Ignacio.Lazaro at quierotv.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:33:49 +0200 Subject: remove Message-ID: From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 30 10:42:01 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:42:01 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism References: Message-ID: <3B659C69.3B344CF6@lsil.com> I'm really not completely clued-in to all of the publishing options but my gut instinct says that the more rapid and widespread the dispersal the better. The originator of proscribed information needs to be anonymous but it seems that if the recipients are many and diverse then the level of guilt associated with reception can be ameliorated. A mixmaster chain firing the info off into a whole shitload of lists looks like a pretty good way to ensure that information is not made extinct. If a DeCSS source+bin zip had been anonymously mailed to 40 million people the terrain for the legal fight might have been different. I think JQPublic hasn't yet grasped the absurdity of "illegal information" and might react unpredictably if told that possessing or forwarding certain e-mails was a crime. Non-techie people I've spoken with about the state of affairs flat out didn't believe me. Eugene Leitl wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > > Unless I'm mistaken a node keeps a reference ( even if only temorarily > > ) to the originating node when data is added. So if I publish > > sooper-infringer.tar.gz and the neighboring node that gets it is a > > narc I'm screwed. Identify your dissidents and put in informants as > > Aye, that's the rub. Even if you're acting as a relay, even if you're just > serving out a sliver of the content, even if it's sitting there encrypted > on your hard drive, even if it's ephemeral -- if you serve a packet (while > not spoofing your IP), and legislation makes that prosecutable, yer goose > is cooked ("Your Honour, he's a part of a global terrorist network!"). > > I'm not sure how you can prevent that, apart from the spoofing or > legislation changing business. Oh, and only making links into legal > compartments guaranteeing maximum persecution friction. So, if your > traffic is unfilterable (it looks like a SSL session), and it comes from > Cuba, the guilty party seems to be more or less immune. > > > neighbors. Admittedly I didn't read everything yet. What did I miss? From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 30 08:49:29 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:49:29 -0500 Subject: Defending the net with sarcasm Message-ID: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/27/221046/624 James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 30 08:50:30 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:50:30 -0500 Subject: The decline of our nation and the pinnacle of our arrogance Message-ID: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/29/19223/2566 James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 30 10:57:54 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:57:54 -0700 Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists References: Message-ID: <001801c11921$292f85c0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Maybe we should form cypherarticles at lne.com ? cypherlinks at lne.com? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:28 AM Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists > I've noticed that about 90% of traffic to the Cypherpunks list, at > least the slightly-filtered list at lne.com, is now one-line pointers > to news on Yahoo, CNN, ABC, LA Times, and to articles on Slashdot, > Politech, Extropians, Cryptography, and other such Net outlets. > > If I wanted to subscribed to Perrypunks, I'd do so. If I wanted to > subscribe to Declanpunks, I'd do so. (In fact, I subscribe to one of > Declan's lists, the Nym list. Alas, it seems to be mostly forwarded > news items and pointers.) If I wanted to subscribe to Gaylorpunks, > I'd do so. And I already see more Yahoo, ZDNet, CNET, and similar > headlines and stories than the NSA has bits. Having dozens of other > lists is all well and good, but there is no point in bouncing their > stuff around. There are exceptions, as when some particularly urgent > or clueful point is made. And even then it is best for the forwarder > to at least take a few minutes to introduce the post and to comment > on it. This shows that he's not just dumping pointers. > > (And when one of my articles is "helpfully forwarded" to one of these > other of the dozens of such lists, I tend to get strange personal > mail from people asking me what it is I'm talking about. Sometimes I > bounce them info on subscribing to the Cypherpunks list, sometimes I > just give them a couple of lines of explanation. And often I don't > reply at all. > > I think most of the "pointers" are just symptoms of laziness. It > looks like people just think "cross-pollinating" without analysis is > the thing to do. > > My solution is to add more and more of you who do this to my filter files. > > When the average list traffic, minus advertising, spam, pointers to > Yahoo, forwarded Politech items, etc. drops to less than 3 per day, > then I can finally unsubscribe completely. > > --Tim May > > P.S. The worst situation is when N different lists are copied, many > of them open for posting only to subscribers. Nothing worse than > having an e-mail conversation spanning N different lists. > > > -- > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns > From ggr at qualcomm.com Sun Jul 29 18:09:52 2001 From: ggr at qualcomm.com (Greg Rose) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:09:52 +1000 Subject: A pattern emerges... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20010730110421.02352b50@203.30.171.11> Well, Australia is also looking at (and probably soon to pass) similarly draconian legislation. The EFA is Electronic Frontiers Australia -- see http://www.efa.org.au/Campaigns/cybercrime.html >EFA lodged a submission with the Inquiry into The Law Enforcement >Implications of New Technology being conducted by the Joint Committee on >the National Crime Authority. EFA is very concerned about proposals put >forward by several law enforcement agencies for legislation to require >Australian ISPs to retain transaction logs of all user activities. We >consider the monitoring or data warehousing of Internet traffic or content >on a mass scale to be highly privacy-invasive and an infringement of the >human rights of Internet users. This proposal, if not strongly opposed by >Internet users, is likely to foreshadow a move towards a Bill similar to >the draconian Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill (R.I.P.) recently >passed in the U.K. The submission will be made available on EFA's website >as soon as the Committee has granted permission for it to be made publicly >available (this is normal prodecure in accord with Parliamentary inquiry >rules/procedures). The Committee's report is likely to be tabled in the >Winter sittings of Parliament. Greg. At 04:35 PM 7/29/2001 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >The DMCA and the Terrorism Act appear to provide exactly such laws. >What has been passed recently by the other signatories to the UKUSA >agreement that created Echelon? Greg Rose INTERNET: ggr at qualcomm.com Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199 Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/ Gladesville NSW 2111 232B EC8F 44C6 C853 D68F E107 E6BF CD2F 1081 A37C --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From pape at ctv.es Mon Jul 30 02:10:38 2001 From: pape at ctv.es (pape) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:10:38 +0200 Subject: remove Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010730111025.0458fb50@clunia.csa.es> From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 30 09:20:38 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:20:38 -0500 Subject: red-light camera backlash brings city efforts to a halt Message-ID: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/communities/la-000061757jul29.story James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jul 30 11:59:46 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:59:46 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: [e-gold-list] Re: The CRISIS!!! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010730115913.0402dfc8@pop3.lvcm.com> >At 03:02 AM 7/31/2001 +1000, Ben Legume wrote: >>These are strange days. Has anyone else noticed how the far left >>(bomb-throwing anarchists, social activists etc) are now getting very >>upset and demonstrating about the things the extreme right (the John >>Birchers etc.) have been complaining about (globalism, multinational >>banks etc.) for decades? From hostmaster at dot-god.com Mon Jul 30 12:09:01 2001 From: hostmaster at dot-god.com (The dot.GOD Registry, Limited) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Validation of DURGA.GOD Domain Message-ID: <200107301909.f6UJ91S45707@dot-god.dot-god.COM> Hello: This email will confirm that we have processed your domain registration request for: DURGA.GOD. Someone, hopefully you, has registered this domain with us. If not please let us know. You must now visit our web site to validate your domain and enter your validation ticket number. TICKET: 9759f7bc399651198620 Please click on the following URL to activate your new domain name now. https://secure.dot-god.com/god.nic/validate.cgi?durga=9759f7bc399651198620 Or if the above URL does not work (some email systems may crop the URL) then please visit: https://secure.dot-god.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi and enter the following information manually at the prompt: DOMAIN: durga TICKET: 9759f7bc399651198620 Regards hostmaster at dot-god.com http://www.dot-god.com/ The dot.GOD Registry, Limited Executive Plaza, Suite 908 150 West 51st Sreet New York, New York, 10019 US From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jul 30 12:40:47 2001 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:40:47 -0700 Subject: Findlaw: The New York Times and Napster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010730123809.041fbec8@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:29 PM 7/30/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20010730_chander.html It will be very interesting if Napster decides to take Mr. Chander's suggestion and ask the court to force copyright holder's back to the table and compel them to negotiate or face an arbitrated result based on New York Times v. 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Ed: Two different ways to protect your images >> MEMBER SHOWCASES >> MEMBER *REVIEWS* - Sites to Review: #138, #139, #140 & #141! - Site #137 Reviewed! - Thanks! ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<< Submit your questions & answers to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com QUESTIONS: From freematt at coil.com Mon Jul 30 10:08:48 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:08:48 -0400 Subject: POLL: Ohio "Thought Crime?" Message-ID: At 7:56 AM -0400 7/30/01, Paul McMasters wrote: >From: Paul McMasters >To: "'Matthew Gaylor'" , fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu >Subject: RE: POLL: Ohio "Thought Crime?" >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 07:56:58 -0400 > >Brian Dalton, as I understand it, was convicted of pandering child >pornography. I don't believe he was a child molester, as the poll question >indicates. > >-pkm > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Matthew Gaylor [mailto:freematt at coil.com] >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 12:46 AM >To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu >Subject: POLL: Ohio "Thought Crime?" > > >From: JPFO Alerts >Subject: ALERT: New CCOPS Poll -- your opinion needed > >July 29, 2001 > >ALERT: New CCOPS Poll -- your opinion needed > >CCOPS: Concerned Citizens Opposed to Police States has a new poll >with the following question: > >An Ohio man, a convicted child molester, has been sent to prison for >seven years for writing fantasies of torturing children in his >personal journal. By all accounts, these writings were repulsive. >Should people be sent to prison for recording private thoughts in the >privacy of their own home, when the activities described are illegal >and/or violent, but there is no indication the person intended to act >on them? > >You can vote yes or no. > >CCOPS has a new poll: "Thought Crime?" >Express your opinion, go to: > > http://www.ccops.org/ > >and tell us YOUR opinion on this complex issue. > >NOTE: This poll will be up for 10 days. Give your opinion now >and check back soon to view poll results and comments. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 04:12:30 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:12:30 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: On the turning away of hackers In-Reply-To: <3B61BE19.67B80383@black.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > Damnit, Alan, if you had prompted Leitl to say that you could have had > the retort: > "Careful with that axe, Eugene." I will. (Hey, it's my favourite). From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 04:12:30 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:12:30 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: On the turning away of hackers In-Reply-To: <3B61BE19.67B80383@black.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Subcommander Bob wrote: > Damnit, Alan, if you had prompted Leitl to say that you could have had > the retort: > "Careful with that axe, Eugene." I will. (Hey, it's my favourite). From info at giganetstore.com Mon Jul 30 05:21:34 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:21:34 +0100 Subject: Os Melhores Componentes para o seu PC Message-ID: <05b993521121e71WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Os melhores Componentes para o seu PC A giganetstore.com coloca ao seu dispor uma vasta gama de produtos de harware que lhe podem ajudar a melhorar a performance do seu PC. 3D Blaster Geforce 75.900 ($) Poupe 7% Card Bus 32 Bit 49.900 ($) Poupe 20% Sound Blaster 1024 17.900 ($) Poupe 7% Compact Card 39.900 ($) Poupe 12% Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list dever獺 entrar no nosso site http:\\www.giganetstore.com , ir edi癟瓊o do seu registo e retirar a op癟瓊o de receber informa癟瓊o acerca das nossas promo癟繭es e novos servi癟os. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6042 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 30 13:23:35 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:23:35 -0700 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas Message-ID: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> Declan, The larger problem notwithstanding there's at least one little bit of language in this piece that is odd : "He said the government is seeking all of Leggett's material, including all originals and copies." Even if we make the extreme assumption that there is some pressing and justifiable need for federal prosecutors to have access to her materials how do you explain the need to possess "all originals and copies?" It doesn't make sense. Why should she not be allowed to keep a copy of her work? How does the existence of an uncontrolled copy lower the value of the original in the case of a recording? Or in the case of her own notes why would a copy not suffice. Looks like a reporter ( or anyone else for that matter ) should keep well hidden backups of their notes and work so that they can comply with Napolean complexes, fishing expeditions and spin control operations and not lose their life's work. Mike From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 30 13:25:12 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:25:12 -0700 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> Message-ID: <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas > Declan, > > The larger problem notwithstanding there's at least one little bit of > language in this piece that is odd : > > "He said the government is > seeking all of Leggett's > material, including all > originals and copies." > > Even if we make the extreme assumption that there is some pressing and > justifiable need for federal prosecutors to have access to her materials > how do you explain the need to possess "all originals and copies?" It > doesn't make sense. Why should she not be allowed to keep a copy of her > work? How does the existence of an uncontrolled copy lower the value of > the original in the case of a recording? Or in the case of her own notes > why would a copy not suffice. > > Looks like a reporter ( or anyone else for that matter ) should keep > well hidden backups of their notes and work so that they can comply with > Napolean complexes, fishing expeditions and spin control operations and > not lose their life's work. No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such documents with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Mon Jul 30 11:29:39 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: Findlaw: The New York Times and Napster Message-ID: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20010730_chander.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From rms at privacyfoundation.org Mon Jul 30 10:39:11 2001 From: rms at privacyfoundation.org (Richard M. Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:39:11 -0400 Subject: Why the DMCA is anti-security and anti-privacy Message-ID: Hi, The Privacy Foundation has just posted an article of mine on why the DMCA is bad for security and privacy research. The URL for the article is: http://www.privacyfoundation.org/commentary/tipsheet.asp?id=47&action=0 The same article should also appear on the MSNBC Web site later in day. Richard M. Smith CTO, Privacy Foundation http://www.privacyfoundation.org ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 30 13:47:23 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:47:23 -0700 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B65C7DB.883E512A@lsil.com> Black Unicorn wrote: > > Looks like a reporter ( or anyone else for that matter ) should keep > > well hidden backups of their notes and work so that they can comply with > > Napolean complexes, fishing expeditions and spin control operations and > > not lose their life's work. > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such documents > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). > That is one method of "well hidden" How about placing blocks of data on a safe site? A petit Napoleon would be able to subpoena a plaintext copy of the data and possibly make a fight about getting the keys but would not be able to deprive the owner of the data. That is, to me, the strangest and most disturbing part of this story considering how easy and cheap it is to make decent copies of almost anything written or taped. Why should an owner not be allowed to retain a copy? Mike From free at greatbabes.gz.ee Mon Jul 30 04:51:46 2001 From: free at greatbabes.gz.ee (free at greatbabes.gz.ee) Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:51:46 +0200 Subject: Special Deal This Week Only !!! 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6103 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 04:54:42 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:54:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <3B6204B5.5E0CB96C@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Unless I'm mistaken a node keeps a reference ( even if only temorarily > ) to the originating node when data is added. So if I publish > sooper-infringer.tar.gz and the neighboring node that gets it is a > narc I'm screwed. Identify your dissidents and put in informants as Aye, that's the rub. Even if you're acting as a relay, even if you're just serving out a sliver of the content, even if it's sitting there encrypted on your hard drive, even if it's ephemeral -- if you serve a packet (while not spoofing your IP), and legislation makes that prosecutable, yer goose is cooked ("Your Honour, he's a part of a global terrorist network!"). I'm not sure how you can prevent that, apart from the spoofing or legislation changing business. Oh, and only making links into legal compartments guaranteeing maximum persecution friction. So, if your traffic is unfilterable (it looks like a SSL session), and it comes from Cuba, the guilty party seems to be more or less immune. > neighbors. Admittedly I didn't read everything yet. What did I miss? From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 04:54:42 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:54:42 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <3B6204B5.5E0CB96C@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > Unless I'm mistaken a node keeps a reference ( even if only temorarily > ) to the originating node when data is added. So if I publish > sooper-infringer.tar.gz and the neighboring node that gets it is a > narc I'm screwed. Identify your dissidents and put in informants as Aye, that's the rub. Even if you're acting as a relay, even if you're just serving out a sliver of the content, even if it's sitting there encrypted on your hard drive, even if it's ephemeral -- if you serve a packet (while not spoofing your IP), and legislation makes that prosecutable, yer goose is cooked ("Your Honour, he's a part of a global terrorist network!"). I'm not sure how you can prevent that, apart from the spoofing or legislation changing business. Oh, and only making links into legal compartments guaranteeing maximum persecution friction. So, if your traffic is unfilterable (it looks like a SSL session), and it comes from Cuba, the guilty party seems to be more or less immune. > neighbors. Admittedly I didn't read everything yet. What did I miss? From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 30 14:31:06 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:31:06 -0700 Subject: Forced disclosures, document seizures, that kind of stuff. Was: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: Message-ID: <007201c1193e$f5111a10$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trei, Peter" To: ; ; ; "'Black Unicorn'" Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: RE: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas > >From: wrote > > > Declan, > > > The larger problem notwithstanding there's at least one little bit of > > > language in this piece that is odd : > > > > > > "He said the government is > > > seeking all of Leggett's > > > material, including all > > > originals and copies." [...] > > > Looks like a reporter ( or anyone else for that matter ) should keep > > > well hidden backups of their notes and work so that they can comply with > > > Napolean complexes, fishing expeditions and spin control operations and > > > not lose their life's work. I said: > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such > > documents > > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). Mr. Trei replied: > I'm curious what the term 'copy' refers to when the Internet and encryption > gets involved. If a reporter posted an encrypted copy of her notes > to usenet on a regular basis, she could recover them anytime, > anywhere, from etin.com, dejanews, or any of the other news > archiving services. > > However, if ordered to 'turn over all originals and copies', what can she > do? Ask deja to dismount a drive and send it to the court? Ask the > NSA to please gather up all their tapes which had copies and send > them? Here is some text from an order I was a party to some time ago: Further, [someone who was kind of naughty] is hereby ordered to produce and disclose all copies, originals, reproductions, derivations, translations or other documents related to [a certain document] _within his direct or indirect control_. (Emphasis mine). That's pretty typical, the control part. > Isn't there an implied and anachronistic assumption here that a > requested private document is physically seperable from other > private documents, and that to be private a document has to be > under the authors physical control? And that there is a meaningful > distinction between an 'original' and a 'copy'? Copy is an old term of art. "A transcript, double, imitation, or reproduction of an original writing, painting, instrument, or the like." As distinguished from original: "As applied to documents the original is the first copy or archetype; that from which another instrument is transcribed, copied, or imitated." Part of the confusion is because "copies" and "originals" bear different evidentiary weights. Copies can only be submitted as evidence in lieu of originals under certain circumstances (because of the risk of alteration or forgery or suchlike) and blah blah blah. "Copy" started to see the use you are describing because of the following kinds of exchanges: Prosecutor: And do you still have this document? Witness: No. (Thinks: but I have a xerox in my briefcase- ha ha ha). > This comes of a the same problem we find with so much of the > IP arguement, that information exists only bound to some > physical object, and shares it's limitations. Very true. Consider: "An original of a writing or recording is the writing or recording itself or any counterpart intended to have the same effect by a person executing or issuing it. An 'original' or a photograph includes the negative or any print therefrom. If the data are stored in a computer or similar device, any printout or other output readable by sight shown to reflect the data accurately, is an 'original.'" This leads to the very strange situation where data on a disk (not readable by sight) is not an original or a copy but a sort of "quasi-original." A meta-original if you will, capable of spawning infinite originals- as it were. It's curious to me that no one has pursued this kind of argument in a copyright/MPAA type case. It's not readable by sight is it? Might be too technical an argument. > I can only assume that the court, for reasons which seem unclear > but which seem to amount to punishment, wish to deny her > access to her own work. If many copies exist which are > readable only by her, but not under her control, how can > she be so deprived? (I suppose the court could order her to > forget her passphrase :-) I don't know the details but I suspect that they are trying to control evidence that might compromise an investigation or otherwise collect all the evidence to be sure that everything is covered? It doesn't sound THAT unusual. Courts generally try to grab everything to make sure nothing is destroyed, lost, stolen, tampered with... etc. > [I'm not addressing the issue of forced exposure of keys, just > the information-theoretic notion of destroying or sequestering > widely distributed information, and how that collides with the > assumptions of ill-educated or maleific judges] Since such a prospect is impossible it's a good tactic. Never try to outsmart forced disclosures. Make it impossible for you to comply with them in good faith. Outsmarting them just makes prosecutors mad. Making such disclosures/surrenders impossible makes them frustrated (i.e. mad but unable to do anything about it). From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 30 14:38:02 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:38:02 -0700 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65C7DB.883E512A@lsil.com> Message-ID: <007301c11940$47b26700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Black Unicorn" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 1:47 PM Subject: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas > Black Unicorn wrote: > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such documents > > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). > > > That is one method of "well hidden" No, that's not hidden. > How about placing blocks of data on a safe site? A petit Napoleon would > be able to subpoena a plaintext copy of the data and possibly make a > fight about getting the keys but would not be able to deprive the owner > of the data. Nope. Compare: Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? Witness: Yes. Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoenaed by the court? Witness: Yes. Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? Witness: I won't answer that. (Oops) with: Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? Witness: Yes. Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoened by the court? Witness: Yes. Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? [Witness: I placed blocks of data on a safe site so they would be accessible.] [Witness: I split a cryptographic key and spread it among my friends and encrypted the document to it.] [Witness: I (insert clever but legally naive cypherpunk solution here) the document.] (Oops) with: Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? Witness: No. Prosecutor: You have none of these documents in your possession or control? Witness: No. Prosecutor: Are you aware of any other copies of this document? Witness: Yes. Prosecutor: Where are they? Witness: An attorney representing the ABC trust bought a copy of the document before I knew about these proceedings. Prosecutor: Why didn't you instruct this attorney to turn over the documents? Witness: I have here a copy of the agreement assigning all my rights to the document over to this Isle of Man trust under control of the attorney listed here. I understand Simon and Schuster has expressed interest in the manuscript but since I no longer have the power to influence the fate of the document I cannot produce it, or I most certainly would comply with the court's most legitimate wishes and interest in effecting justice. > Why should an owner not be allowed to retain a copy? Cause the court says so. > Mike From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 05:51:37 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:51:37 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: FBI gets cash to spend on anti-encryption research (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:28:29 -0400 From: David Farber To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: FBI gets cash to spend on anti-encryption research > >Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:37:43 -0400 >From: Declan McCullagh >To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com > >Anyone want to speculate on what the quote in the first bullet >point means? > >You can find a smidgen more info here (search for encryption), >which is the report I was quoting from: > ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/cp107/sr042.txt > >-Declan > > >http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,45632,00.html > > According to the report accompanying a spending bill that's awaiting a > floor vote in the Senate: > > * The FBI will receive an extra $7 million for technology to thwart > encryption. The appropriations committee intends for it to be > spent on: "(1) analysis/exploitation of systems to allow access to > data pre-encryption, (2) recognition/decryption of data hidden in > plain sight, and (3) decryption of encrypted data." > * Another $7 million goes to a plan to improve "intercept > capabilities." The fed-speak for this is "developing broadband > capabilities, and procuring prototypes capable of intercepting > transmissions outside of the FBI's technical reach." Translation: > Create better ways to eavesdrop on cable modems and DSL > connections. > * Antitrust enforcement gets a boost. The division, best known > recently for its dogged pursuit of Microsoft, receives $3.6 > million extra, but $10 million less than the Bush administration > requested. The committee predicts a slew of mergers because of > "the collapse of high technology stocks, and the resultant > downward pressure on all stock prices." > * Las Vegas, St. Louis, Charleston and Kansas City will split $6 > million earmarked for gun surveillance technology. The plan is to > spend it on acoustic sensors scattered around downtown areas so > the location of a gunshot can be triangulated and located. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Cryptography Mailing List >Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to >majordomo at wasabisystems.com For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 05:51:37 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:51:37 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: IP: FBI gets cash to spend on anti-encryption research (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:28:29 -0400 From: David Farber Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: FBI gets cash to spend on anti-encryption research > >Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:37:43 -0400 >From: Declan McCullagh >To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com > >Anyone want to speculate on what the quote in the first bullet >point means? > >You can find a smidgen more info here (search for encryption), >which is the report I was quoting from: > ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/cp107/sr042.txt > >-Declan > > >http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,45632,00.html > > According to the report accompanying a spending bill that's awaiting a > floor vote in the Senate: > > * The FBI will receive an extra $7 million for technology to thwart > encryption. The appropriations committee intends for it to be > spent on: "(1) analysis/exploitation of systems to allow access to > data pre-encryption, (2) recognition/decryption of data hidden in > plain sight, and (3) decryption of encrypted data." > * Another $7 million goes to a plan to improve "intercept > capabilities." The fed-speak for this is "developing broadband > capabilities, and procuring prototypes capable of intercepting > transmissions outside of the FBI's technical reach." Translation: > Create better ways to eavesdrop on cable modems and DSL > connections. > * Antitrust enforcement gets a boost. The division, best known > recently for its dogged pursuit of Microsoft, receives $3.6 > million extra, but $10 million less than the Bush administration > requested. The committee predicts a slew of mergers because of > "the collapse of high technology stocks, and the resultant > downward pressure on all stock prices." > * Las Vegas, St. Louis, Charleston and Kansas City will split $6 > million earmarked for gun surveillance technology. The plan is to > spend it on acoustic sensors scattered around downtown areas so > the location of a gunshot can be triangulated and located. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >The Cryptography Mailing List >Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to >majordomo at wasabisystems.com For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/ From fortucast at lisco.com Mon Jul 30 12:56:08 2001 From: fortucast at lisco.com (www.fortucast.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:56:08 -0500 Subject: Free 2-Week Trial of Fortucast Daily Market Timers Message-ID: <200107301956.MAA15308@toad.com> Free 2-Week Trial of Fortucast Daily Market Timers Plus Free S & P Intraday Hotline* thru Aug 3rd Major stock market low into late October? Find out where to get short from the market timing perspective. We believe access to a reliable market timer can be a key component in successful futures trading. That's why we are pleased to offer you an extended FREE TRIAL of Barry Rosen's FORTUCAST DAILY MARKET TIMERS--one of the best such products in the field. Fortucast has been serving futures traders since 1987 and currently covers 20 major markets. Fortucast's Financial or Agricultural Daily Timers are delivered nightly by e-mail for markets of the next day. You can get these daily timers FREE every market day for TWO WEEKS when you click on the "Order Free Trial Link" below. CLICK HERE TO ORDER FORTUCAST FREE TRIAL MORE ABOUT FORTUCAST: As the name suggests, Fortucast specializes in market timing--knowing WHEN to execute a trade. Accurate timing is difficult to come by because the volatility of today's markets is creating false signals that wreak havoc with traditional timing models. 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There is substantial risk of loss in futures trading. If you are on this list by accident and would like to be removed for this list, please reply back and put "Remove" in the message area. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3301 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corran__horn at corranhorn.dyndns.org Mon Jul 30 14:04:18 2001 From: corran__horn at corranhorn.dyndns.org (john domain) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:04:18 -0600 Subject: SirCam contribution References: Message-ID: <3B65CBD1.744B2D23@corranhorn.dyndns.org> This looks like a college essay prompt, and because most if not all colleges use your S.S. number as an ID#, the poor sucker had it released. Anonymous wrote: > This is a strings-processed portion of a recent SirCam post on cypherpunks. > > Note that SS number seems to be embedded in microshit document - is this a standard practice ? > > ############## > > Social Security Number: 326-70-5214 > Prompt Number 1 > > Angry Inside and No One Cares > > If an American has turned on a TV in the last few years, they should have noticed that school shootings are on a rise. A plausible explanation could be that todays youth do not have the ability to release aggression on a day-to-day basis. Children need to have the ability to vent their anger and now see gun related violence as a more spectacular form of violence. > When I was young most children exhibited hostility through fighting or watching others fight. Today the punishments for fighting are suspension or expulsion, while in the past the children we forced to complete an activity to waste their time or energy. With the severe pressure to get along children are holding in their aggression more. Most children are able to handle this or let their anger out through sports or active hobbies. > Look at the children of two recent shootings. One was a young child who was not involved in sports and was constantly picked on, the other was a four or five member group who were said to be outcasts in their school and were also not involved in sports. In both these cases the youths had active friends, but were not involved in any active activities. > Youths are also going through a stage in their life were they need people to pay attention, yet today society is trying to turn children into robots and statistics. Looking at the rule books for a local grade school you would think they are supposed to replace a bible. Children today are even restricted in what games they play, who they talk to, and how to dress. At the same time children are hearing about how to their community they are just numbers. They spend over a month preparing and taking tests so they can show the authority how much they know. Children desire to be involved and paid attention to. > A third factor to the rise in school shootings could be that before youths would try to commit acts of extreme violence by suicide, small bombs, or destroying property. Today children see that shootings and gun related violence are a huge media hype events. They feel that by shooting another kid they could gain an extreme amount of attention to themselves or their situation. They know that people will remember their actions. Their horrible acts are more easily recalled then state capitals. Where was the last shooting? What is the capital of Alabama? > Society must learn that children will be aggressive. They will release their anger, but it does not have to be in such a spectacular fashion. Parents need to talk to their children and play a ACTIVE role in their life. Society needs to stop treating children as a collective group of autonomous beings, but as a diverse group of individuals. And we as a nation need to show then that yes, we care for you as an individual. > > 8$45STR > 48d`$da$d8 1h/ =!"#$%i8 at 8NormalCJ_HaJmH sH tH x$Social Security Number: 326-70-5214ociValued Sony Customerr: alualuNormalSValued Sony Customerr: 1luMicrosoft Word 9.0r@@ > @@ .+,0hp > SonyS\ $Social Security Number: 326-70-5214Title !"#$'Root Entry Fs0)1Table > WordDocument"SummaryInformation(DocumentSummaryInformation8CompObjjObjectPools0s0 FMicrosoft Word DocumentMSWordDocWord.Document From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 06:04:22 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:04:22 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: New Singapore surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour(fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:40:36 -0400 From: Matthew Gaylor To: extropians at extropy.org Subject: New Singapore surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour Surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour Friday July 27 7:38 AM ET New Singapore Software Can Beef Up Surveillance http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010727/tc/tech_singapore_software_dc_1.html SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Singapore scientists have created new software which may beef up surveillance efforts in the future by distinguishing between a person's normal activities and suspicious behavior. The software created by researchers at the Nanyang Technological University can tell the difference between people walking, talking and acting normally, and abnormal behavior such as a fight or someone collapsing. The Singapore team recorded and classified 73 features of human movement, such as speed, direction, shape and pattern. The features were then used with existing ``neural network'' software, which can learn and remember patterns, to create a new program. ``Each of the features is actually generated from a formula ...then the learning software will be able to classify certain motion as normal or abnormal,'' associate professor Maylor Leung told Reuters on Friday. ``It's something new. No one has tried (developing it) and so far we are successful,'' he said. Images fed to the software, such as from a surveillance camera, are analyzed almost instantly and with 96 percent accuracy, Leung said. The software can trigger an alarm when unusual movements are detected, making it well suited for surveillance. Creating the artificial intelligence needed to recognize complex human motion has been a challenge, Leung said. It is difficult for the human eye to accurately judge motion, such as speed, and even harder for a software program to do so, he said. Leung is looking for partners to commercialize the software. The research, which took two and a half years, is pending publication in several technical journals. __________________________________________________________________________ Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. --- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Mon Jul 30 06:04:22 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:04:22 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: New Singapore surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour(fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:40:36 -0400 From: Matthew Gaylor Reply-To: extropians at extropy.org To: extropians at extropy.org Subject: New Singapore surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour Surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour Friday July 27 7:38 AM ET New Singapore Software Can Beef Up Surveillance http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010727/tc/tech_singapore_software_dc_1.html SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Singapore scientists have created new software which may beef up surveillance efforts in the future by distinguishing between a person's normal activities and suspicious behavior. The software created by researchers at the Nanyang Technological University can tell the difference between people walking, talking and acting normally, and abnormal behavior such as a fight or someone collapsing. The Singapore team recorded and classified 73 features of human movement, such as speed, direction, shape and pattern. The features were then used with existing ``neural network'' software, which can learn and remember patterns, to create a new program. ``Each of the features is actually generated from a formula ...then the learning software will be able to classify certain motion as normal or abnormal,'' associate professor Maylor Leung told Reuters on Friday. ``It's something new. No one has tried (developing it) and so far we are successful,'' he said. Images fed to the software, such as from a surveillance camera, are analyzed almost instantly and with 96 percent accuracy, Leung said. The software can trigger an alarm when unusual movements are detected, making it well suited for surveillance. Creating the artificial intelligence needed to recognize complex human motion has been a challenge, Leung said. It is difficult for the human eye to accurately judge motion, such as speed, and even harder for a software program to do so, he said. Leung is looking for partners to commercialize the software. The research, which took two and a half years, is pending publication in several technical journals. __________________________________________________________________________ Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. --- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************** From amaha at vsnl.net Mon Jul 30 13:06:11 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:06:11 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107302006.f6UK68q19009@ak47.algebra.com> Nothing can bring you peace but yourself. --Ralph Waldo Emerson ======================================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. 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Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 30 16:01:11 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:01:11 -0700 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65C7DB.883E512A@lsil.com> <007301c11940$47b26700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B65E737.E621DE0B@lsil.com> Black Unicorn wrote: > > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > > > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such > documents > > > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > > > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). > > IANAL but it looks to me like obstruction relates to hindering the court's access to information not its total control of information. > > > > > That is one method of "well hidden" > > No, that's not hidden. > OKOKOK - stored, not hidden. > > How about placing blocks of data on a safe site? A petit Napoleon would > > be able to subpoena a plaintext copy of the data and possibly make a > > fight about getting the keys but would not be able to deprive the owner > > of the data. > > Nope. > > Compare: > > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoenaed by > the court? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? > Witness: I won't answer that. > > (Oops) > #1 - This is her current predicament - she refused to produce physical "evidence" > with: > > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoened by the > court? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? > [Witness: I placed blocks of data on a safe site so they would be > accessible.] > [Witness: I split a cryptographic key and spread it among my friends and > encrypted the document to it.] > [Witness: I (insert clever but legally naive cypherpunk solution here) the > document.] > > (Oops) > #2 - Doesn't look so bad - she can produce all physical copies and still get access to her safe site. Safe is pretty generic, meaning possibly out of the jurisdiction, out of her control and visible to herself and possibly others as plaintext or otherwise. Not sure how it is possible to hassle her if she produces all physical copies as ordered but has taken steps to maintain future accessibility for her own purposes. Pardon me for being sloppy about "safe site". If the motherfuckers want all of the copies they can achieve that goal assymptotically by downloading the data repeatedly. Disks are cheap. > with: > > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > Witness: No. > Prosecutor: You have none of these documents in your possession or control? > Witness: No. > Prosecutor: Are you aware of any other copies of this document? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: Where are they? > Witness: An attorney representing the ABC trust bought a copy of the document > before I knew about these proceedings. > Prosecutor: Why didn't you instruct this attorney to turn over the documents? > Witness: I have here a copy of the agreement assigning all my rights to the > document over to this Isle of Man trust under control of the attorney listed > here. I understand Simon and Schuster has expressed interest in the > manuscript but since I no longer have the power to influence the fate of the > document I cannot produce it, or I most certainly would comply with the > court's most legitimate wishes and interest in effecting justice. > #3 - not entirely unlike #2 really - the data is out of her control. Only difference I can see is that there is a record of a transfer with a date prior to the subpoena. #2 admits of this same solution if blocks of data are mailed to some safe location on a regular basis. I don't see why some official type of escrow is required as long as the unsquelchable distribution predates the subpoena. BTW - would a subpoena such as the one served on the journalist specify that the contents of the records were not to be communicated to anyone? > > Why should an owner not be allowed to retain a copy? > > Cause the court says so. > Not a particularly useful answer and not necessarily justifiable on the part of the court. I think eventually a better answer would have to be produced, one that justified the censorship. We're back to what originally struck me as odd, and wrong, about this item. Whoever has her stuff should copy it and move the copy offshore because something is very wrong on the part of the court. Mike From fortucast at lisco.com Mon Jul 30 14:04:10 2001 From: fortucast at lisco.com (www.fortucast.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:04:10 -0500 Subject: Free 2-Week Trial of Fortucast Daily Market Timers Message-ID: Free 2-Week Trial of Fortucast Daily Market Timers Plus Free S & P Intraday Hotline* thru Aug 3rd Major stock market low into late October? 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There is substantial risk of loss in futures trading. If you are on this list by accident and would like to be removed for this list, please reply back and put "Remove" in the message area. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3301 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Jul 30 01:13:06 2001 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:13:06 +0800 Subject: locks Message-ID: <200107310714.AAA16148@ecotone.toad.com> DEAR SIR OUR FACTORY (JINYUN LOCKS FACTORY) ARE SPECILIZING IN THE PRODUCING OF THE MANY KINDS OF IRON AND BRASS PADLOCKS. NOW, WE MAINLY CAN SUPPLY THE "A88"; "AA88"; "TRI-NINE"; "PANDA" AND SO ON BRANDS PADLOCKS. WE ALSO CAN SUPPLY THE PADLOCKS ACCORDING TO YOUR DRAWING AND BRAND NAMES. ABOUT OUR PADLOCKS, AS THEIR GOOD QUALITY AND COMPETITIVE PRICES, THEY HAVE BEEN WELCOMED ALL OVER THE WORLD. 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MR.ZHU JIAN-JIN E-MAIL: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Http: WWW.CHINA-PADLOCK.COM From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 30 13:54:42 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:54:42 -0400 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Black Unicorn[SMTP:unicorn at schloss.li] >From: wrote > > Declan, > > The larger problem notwithstanding there's at least one little bit of > > language in this piece that is odd : > > > > "He said the government is > > seeking all of Leggett's > > material, including all > > originals and copies." [...] > > > > Looks like a reporter ( or anyone else for that matter ) should keep > > well hidden backups of their notes and work so that they can comply with > > Napolean complexes, fishing expeditions and spin control operations and > > not lose their life's work. > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such > documents > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). > I'm curious what the term 'copy' refers to when the Internet and encryption gets involved. If a reporter posted an encrypted copy of her notes to usenet on a regular basis, she could recover them anytime, anywhere, from etin.com, dejanews, or any of the other news archiving services. However, if ordered to 'turn over all originals and copies', what can she do? Ask deja to dismount a drive and send it to the court? Ask the NSA to please gather up all their tapes which had copies and send them? Isn't there an implied and anachronistic assumption here that a requested private document is physically seperable from other private documents, and that to be private a document has to be under the authors physical control? And that there is a meaningful distinction between an 'original' and a 'copy'? This comes of a the same problem we find with so much of the IP arguement, that information exists only bound to some physical object, and shares it's limitations. I can only assume that the court, for reasons which seem unclear but which seem to amount to punishment, wish to deny her access to her own work. If many copies exist which are readable only by her, but not under her control, how can she be so deprived? (I suppose the court could order her to forget her passphrase :-) [I'm not addressing the issue of forced exposure of keys, just the information-theoretic notion of destroying or sequestering widely distributed information, and how that collides with the assumptions of ill-educated or maleific judges] Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jul 30 13:54:42 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:54:42 -0400 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Black Unicorn[SMTP:unicorn at schloss.li] >From: wrote > > Declan, > > The larger problem notwithstanding there's at least one little bit of > > language in this piece that is odd : > > > > "He said the government is > > seeking all of Leggett's > > material, including all > > originals and copies." [...] > > > > Looks like a reporter ( or anyone else for that matter ) should keep > > well hidden backups of their notes and work so that they can comply with > > Napolean complexes, fishing expeditions and spin control operations and > > not lose their life's work. > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such > documents > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). > I'm curious what the term 'copy' refers to when the Internet and encryption gets involved. If a reporter posted an encrypted copy of her notes to usenet on a regular basis, she could recover them anytime, anywhere, from etin.com, dejanews, or any of the other news archiving services. However, if ordered to 'turn over all originals and copies', what can she do? Ask deja to dismount a drive and send it to the court? Ask the NSA to please gather up all their tapes which had copies and send them? Isn't there an implied and anachronistic assumption here that a requested private document is physically seperable from other private documents, and that to be private a document has to be under the authors physical control? And that there is a meaningful distinction between an 'original' and a 'copy'? This comes of a the same problem we find with so much of the IP arguement, that information exists only bound to some physical object, and shares it's limitations. I can only assume that the court, for reasons which seem unclear but which seem to amount to punishment, wish to deny her access to her own work. If many copies exist which are readable only by her, but not under her control, how can she be so deprived? (I suppose the court could order her to forget her passphrase :-) [I'm not addressing the issue of forced exposure of keys, just the information-theoretic notion of destroying or sequestering widely distributed information, and how that collides with the assumptions of ill-educated or maleific judges] Peter Trei From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Jul 30 17:07:44 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:07:44 -0700 Subject: Do not taunt happy-fun-court. Was: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65C7DB.883E512A@lsil.com> <007301c11940$47b26700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65E737.E621DE0B@lsil.com> Message-ID: <008701c11954$d3dabe80$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Black Unicorn" Cc: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 4:01 PM Subject: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas > Black Unicorn wrote: > > > > > No. Well hidden backups would put the reporter in a position of contempt, > > > > committing obstruction of justice or perjury. Better to escrow such > > documents > > > > with an attorney in a jurisdiction not likely to cooperate with the United > > > > States. (I can suggest several to interested parties privately). > > > > IANAL but it looks to me like obstruction relates to hindering the court's access to information not its total control of information. Well, IAAL and today seems to be legal terminology 101 day. If only I billed for these hours... I can only assume you pulled this from some odd orifice or Perry Mason re-run because it bears little relation to fact. Obstruction of Justice- Impeding or obstructing those who seek justice in a court, or those who have duties or powers of administering justice therein. The act by which one or more persons attempt to prevent, or do prevent, _the execution of lawful process_. The term applies also to obstructing the administration of justice in any way- as by hindering witnesses for appearing, assaulting process servers, influencing jurors, _obstructing court orders_ or criminal investigations... (emphasis mine). In this case, such of it that I know, it's going to be contempt of court that's going to be more onerous in any event, but if you have been irritating enough you can probably expect an obstruction charge too, particularly as your refusals begin to look more like actions and not mere inaction. Also remember the recourse of the unjustly incarcerated contempt sufferer- an expensive, slow and usually useless appeal. > > > That is one method of "well hidden" > > > > No, that's not hidden. > > > OKOKOK - stored, not hidden. Same problem. > > > How about placing blocks of data on a safe site? A petit Napoleon would > > > be able to subpoena a plaintext copy of the data and possibly make a > > > fight about getting the keys but would not be able to deprive the owner > > > of the data. > > > > Nope. [stuff] > > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > > Witness: Yes. > > Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoened by the > > court? > > Witness: Yes. > > Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? > > [Witness: I placed blocks of data on a safe site so they would be > > accessible.] > > [Witness: I split a cryptographic key and spread it among my friends and > > encrypted the document to it.] > > [Witness: I (insert clever but legally naive cypherpunk solution here) the > > document.] > > > > (Oops) > > > #2 - Doesn't look so bad - she can produce all physical copies and still > get access to her safe site. Safe is pretty generic, meaning possibly > out of the jurisdiction, out of her control and visible to herself and > possibly others as plaintext or otherwise. Not sure how it is possible > to hassle her if she produces all physical copies as ordered but has > taken steps to maintain future accessibility for her own purposes. > Pardon me for being sloppy about "safe site". I suppose if I wanted to stifle it as a judge I'd also order the production of all "media, machinery, computer equipment or other tangibles containing the content.... blah blah blah." Again, it's all evidence. It's all within the court's power to grab. It's an entirely legitimate act of the court to attempt to control and otherwise restrict the distribution of evidence or to protect it from destruction or distribution (such as in a libel case). Remember the mystery implement inside the envelope in the OJ case and all the expert imagery wonks analyzing the shadows and contours of the envelope to determine that it might be a big knife? By involving third party system administrators you've done nothing but make it more expensive for third parties who are going to lose the stuff if its seized or otherwise subject to discovery. There are a few cypherpunks probably listening to this who've been smacked with subpoenas for running remailers. I think you'll find that the government is pretty persuasive to third parties like these. The only defense (which one administrator of a remailer I won't name was clever enough to set himself up with) is to say (my paraphrasing) "I don't have access to those logs or any of that data. I don't keep such logs and I never have because it's too much overhead and work." > If the motherfuckers want all of the copies they can achieve that goal > assymptotically by downloading the data repeatedly. Disks are cheap. You miss the point. They don't have to do diddily. By this point you've been ordered by the court to produce such documents. So produce them or direct the court to them or pay the price and have the court get them anyhow. > > with: > > > > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > > Witness: No. > > Prosecutor: You have none of these documents in your possession or control? > > Witness: No. > > Prosecutor: Are you aware of any other copies of this document? > > Witness: Yes. > > Prosecutor: Where are they? > > Witness: An attorney representing the ABC trust bought a copy of the document > > before I knew about these proceedings. > > Prosecutor: Why didn't you instruct this attorney to turn over the documents? > > Witness: I have here a copy of the agreement assigning all my rights to the > > document over to this Isle of Man trust under control of the attorney listed > > here. I understand Simon and Schuster has expressed interest in the > > manuscript but since I no longer have the power to influence the fate of the > > document I cannot produce it, or I most certainly would comply with the > > court's most legitimate wishes and interest in effecting justice. > > > #3 - not entirely unlike #2 really - the data is out of her control. > Only difference I can see is that there is a record of a transfer with a > date prior to the subpoena. The difference is that in #3 the witness does not have physical or logical control of the evidence and cannot, even if she or he wanted to, produce it or otherwise allow the court to put its hands on it or prevent its distribution. I disagree that the data is "out of her control" in example #2. Courts aren't fond of leaks. > #2 admits of this same solution if blocks of data are mailed to some > safe location on a regular basis. I don't see why some official type of > escrow is required as long as the unsquelchable distribution predates > the subpoena. Ask the question: Can the witness produce the document? If the answer is yes, then the witness will have to. Ask the question: Can the court prevent the distribution of the data (via gag order). If the answer is yes then you can expect it to be prevented. The time of the mailing is unimportant. If the data is known or should have been known to be the probable subject of an investigation you're still on the hook. > BTW - would a subpoena such as the one served on the journalist specify > that the contents of the records were not to be communicated to anyone? That's implicit in the "all copies and reproductions" language. Ask yourself how amused the court is going to be with your clever arguments. (Jim Bell transcripts are probably a good indication of how courts are going to treat mouthy geeks). > > > Why should an owner not be allowed to retain a copy? > > > > Cause the court says so. > > > Not a particularly useful answer and not necessarily justifiable on the > part of the court. Totally false. The court has made an order. It involved the production of documents or other potentially exculpatory and material evidence. You pretty much have to comply because the court says so. Well, let me rephrase that. You can refuse and spend some time in lockup until you decide maybe you want to comply. (That can be a long wait. Years is not unheard of). > I think eventually a better answer would have to be > produced, one that justified the censorship. We're back to what > originally struck me as odd, and wrong, about this item. Whoever has her > stuff should copy it and move the copy offshore because something is > very wrong on the part of the court. That person is pretty clearly obstructing justice. I'd suggest they not hang about the U.S. if they decide to knowingly distribute material that is under subpoena or a gag order or somesuch. Very naughty. If I were a judge I'd certainly encourage the prosecutor to order marshals to apprehend that individual and bring them before me for some special attention. > Mike I do wish people would just do their homework before making these kinds of assertions. There is a wealth of information on gag orders, restriction of publication, court ordered seizures of manuscripts and etc. Just spend some time on your own rather than being lazy enough to have someone else explain it all to you. (I suppose I encourage this behavior by responding to this silliness). Really the acronym "IANAL" bothers me because it's effectively a stone cold certainty that the author is about to render some legal advice and expects to be taken seriously. Like some kind of magic talisman for people to be stupid and still contribute their blather to the conversation. A certain blowhard used ascii "smileys" to do the same thing, as if the magic effect of a :) allowed him blanket license to be a complete wad of ear cheese whenever he liked. No one would take "I am not a doctor but if you whack that lump down with the claw side of a hammer a few times it should go right away" seriously, why does IANAL seem to give carte blanche to armchair members of the Court TV Bar? From info at giganetstore.com Mon Jul 30 09:18:28 2001 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:18:28 +0100 Subject: Novas Modalidades de Pagamento Giganetstore.com Message-ID: <080b42818161e71WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Estimado Cliente, Vimos por este meio inform獺-lo que as modalidades de pagamento via cart瓊o de cr矇dito e cart瓊o de d矇bito j獺 est瓊o dispon穩veis na nossa loja. 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Defensores de Chaves, 73-B 1000-114 Lisboa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2085 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Mon Jul 30 17:56:41 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:56:41 -0700 Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft m ake his move Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06779A@MISSERVER> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I don't have the magazine in front of me, but if you'd like, I could scan the page and send you a JPEG or something like that of it. I don't think the NRA is as good a defender of the Second Amendment as it could be, and ditto with John Ashcroft, but at least they aren't trying to totally nuke our freedoms like Clinton, Janet Reno & Handgun Control Incorporated. Jonathan Wienke - -----Original Message----- From: Richard Stevens [mailto:dial911book at yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM To: Jonathan Wienke; freematt at coil.com Cc: George at Orwellian.Org; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; Director at KeepAndBearArms.com; air.man at att.net; brian at citizensofamerica.org Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft make his move - --- Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July > issue also has > an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not > quote the rather > lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible > image of BOTH > pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of > the footnote. This > is hardly the action of an organization bent on > distorting Ashcroft's > view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the > part of the > America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an > organization-wide > conspiracy. > > Jonathan Wienke > Mr. Wienke, I paged through the entire July 2001 issue of American Rifleman, and maybe I'm just blind as the proverbial bat, but I don't see the article to which you refer that quotes the entire Ashcroft letter. On what page is it? The July 2001 issue of First Freedom is the one featuring the Ashcroft letter -- that I have received thus far. On the point you raise: maybe it was merely a bad editorial decision for the one magazine. Fine, and we can forgive that. But, ask this question: in what kind of workplace environment could this kind of editing decision be made? Remember that more than one editor had to approve the final copy. This is not just a typo. More than one person had to consciously decide to omit relevant material without telling the reader. I have to wonder if other sorts of "editing decisions" that massage the facts and distort the truth are being made ... and we readers don't know it. Maybe it was entirely innocent. Then NRA should promptly apologize, correct it and publish the full text in the following issue. Let's see if they do. - --Richard Stevens __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO2YCRxj6oMyeDxZoEQIcBgCfd2QPu23wfwj56en49EF9Aoou6OsAoJdJ PLKWKsFtG76jnEqK2G6sGBZA =xyd4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5373 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com Mon Jul 30 18:39:47 2001 From: bounce-stocknight-163101 at lyris.stocknight.com (Stocknight ListServer) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:39:47 -0700 Subject: ** Breaking News ** Aqua Vie Ships to Albertson's Message-ID: [Stockupticks.com] [Image] [Image] Welcome to Stockupticks.com Newsletter Issue 10 - July 30, 2001 [Image] [Image][Image] [Image] e-Blast [Image] *** Breaking News Breaking News *** [Image] In response to investors requesting that more of our coverage come after the market closes, we are providing this Breaking News, which gives our members maximum time to review this company and respond. Stockupticks endeavors to bring you information about under-followed companies that may be of particular interest to investors in "discovery" and emerging growth stocks. Aqua Vie (OTC BB: AVBC) has been steadily gaining ground in the distribution of its product lines. The company is well on its way to becoming a major competitor in the bottled water market. We believe the following news release from today will be of significant interest to investors. [Image] [Image] [Image] Aqua Vie "Winner" The American Tasting Institute's Award of Excellence [Image] AQUA VIE (Nasdaq: AVBC) [Image] Aqua Vie Hydrators(TM) Shipments to Additional Albertson's Stores Underway -Having Received Additional Authorizations for Product Placement, Company will Continue to Build Western Region Presence- KETCHUM, Idaho, July 30 /PRNewswire/ -- Aqua Vie Beverage Corporation (OTC Bulletin Board: AVBC) announced today that shipments of the company's all-natural Hydrator(TM) line of beverages continues to Northern California and Arizona Albertson's stores. Recent shipments will bring the total number of Albertson's stores stocking Aqua Vie to over 600 stores throughout northern and southern California, Nevada, and Arizona. Additionally, during the past week, Aqua Vie Hydrators were shipped to over 130 Raley's Supermarkets and Drug Centers, Bel Air Markets, Nob Hill Foods and Food Source warehouse stores throughout California, as well as 90 Save-Mart stores, with product availability expected within the next ten days. "Throughout the past several weeks, the company has continued to receive authorizations for placement of product from key retail chains. We look forward to expanding our presence considerably in the western region during August and September," said Gillespie. Aqua Vie Beverage Corporation develops and markets all-natural, lightly flavored, still (non-carbonated) bottled spring water. The company's low-calorie alternative beverages are bacteria-free and contain no preservatives. Aqua Vie produces and markets the Hydrator(TM) line of beverages in the United States and Europe. This beverage line, comprised of seven low-calorie, all-natural beverages that are lightly flavored and packaged in half-liter bottles, is designed to increase one's personal consumption of water, naturally. The underlying technology also serves as the delivery system for Aqua Vie's new line of children's Hydrators(TM), PurePlay(TM), and Eau Vin(TM), Aqua Vie's line of nonalcoholic wine and champagnes made from spring water. For further information about Aqua Vie Beverage Corporation, visit the company's web site at http://www.aquavie.com. NOTE: Statements contained in this news release that are not strictly historical are forward-looking within the meaning of the safe harbor clause of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. The company makes these statements based on information available to it as of the date of this news release and it assumes no responsibility to update or revise such forward-looking statements. Editors and investors are cautioned that such forward-looking statements invoke risk and uncertainties that may cause the company's actual results to differ materially from such forward-looking statements. These risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, demand for the company's product both domestically and abroad, the company's ability to continue to develop its market, general economic conditions, and other factors that may be more fully described in the company's literature and any periodic filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. SOURCE: Aqua Vie Beverage Corporation ----------------------------------------------------------------- Recent Price (01-07-30): $0.07 Avg. Closing Price (30 days): $0.11 60 Week High Volume (12-29-00): 2,317,600 60 Week Low Volume (05-31-00): 13,500 [Image] Quarterly Revenues 01/31/01: $647,808 Market Cap (05-17-01) $6,602,299 Shares Outstanding: 47,159,285 Registered Shareholders: 10,000 [Image]Profiles [Image] About Albertson's Founded in 1939, Albertson's (NYSE: ABS) operates a chain of grocery stores in 37 states served by 22 distribution centers strategically located throughout its operating area in Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Texas and Utah. About Aqua Vie Aqua Vie Beverage Corporation develops and markets all-natural, lightly flavored, still (non-carbonated) bottled spring water. The company's low-calorie alternative beverages are bacteria-free and contain no preservatives. Aqua Vie produces and markets the Hydrator(TM) line of beverages in the United States and Europe. This beverage line, comprised of seven low-calorie, all-natural beverages that are lightly flavored and packaged in half-liter bottles, is designed to increase one's personal consumption of water, naturally. The underlying technology also serves as the delivery system for Aqua Vie's new line of children's Hydrators(TM), PurePlay(TM), and Eau Vin(TM), Aqua Vie's line of non-alcoholic wine and champagnes made from spring water. [SunTea Hydrators by case] [SunTea Hydrators by case][SunTea Hydrators by case] [Image]Contact Information [Image] Aqua Vie, Inc. 333 South Main Street Ketchum, Idaho, 83340 Tel: 888-744-7500 Fax: 208-622-8829 [Image]Safe Harbor Statement [Image] Statements regarding financial matters in above referenced press release other than historical facts are ``forward-looking statements'' within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and as that term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. The Company intends that such statements about the Company's future expectations, including future revenues and earnings, anticipated events and all other forward-looking statements, be subject to the safe harbors created thereby. Since these statements (future operational results and sales) involve risks and uncertainties and are subject to change at any time, the Company's actual results may differ materially from expected results. Disclaimer: Stockupticks.com is owned by Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (MP). The information contained herein is based on a news release or other report written and disseminated by the subject company. Any information, opinions or analysis regarding the subject company to which Stockupticks.com has provided a link or other detail are provided by sources believed to be reliable but no representation, expressed or implied, is made as to its accuracy, completeness or correctness. This report is for information purposes only and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. While MP has not been compensated specifically for producing or disseminating this Newsletter, MP has been retained by Aqua Vie to assist in its on-going investor relations efforts. Aqua Vie has granted MP 1.5 million shares of its restricted common stock as payment for continuing financial public relations services. This compensation constitutes a conflict of interest as to our ability to remain objective in our communication regarding the subject company. Write or call MP for detailed disclosure as required by Rule 17b of the Securities Act of 1933/1934. MP and Stockupticks.com and its owners, agents and employees are not investment advisors and this report is not investment advice. This information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. MP and Stockupticks.com and/or its affiliates, associates and employees from time to time may have either a long or short position in securities mentioned. Information contained herein may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the express written consent of Market Pathways Financial Relations Incorporated (Copyright 2001.) [Image][Image] [Image] [Image] 穢 Stockupticks 2001, All rights reserved [Image] --- You are currently subscribed to stocknight as: cypherpunks at algebra.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stocknight-163101P at lyris.stocknight.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 17284 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Jul 30 18:53:25 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:53:25 -0700 Subject: Do not taunt happy-fun-court. References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65C7DB.883E512A@lsil.com> <007301c11940$47b26700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65E737.E621DE0B@lsil.com> <008701c11954$d3dabe80$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B660F95.1D89071B@lsil.com> Oh pointy one, I suppose you feel the same way about discussions of law as I feel about discussions of physics. I think if we studied the archives we'd find that my physics is pretty well on target. I try to stay out of it but sometimes I just can't help myself. It's not necessarily a bad thing. When I said IANAL I did not offer legal advice - I only offered what I think is right. Maybe that's what IANAL means. Shake loose a little of your own earfudge and try reading it that way. Right and wrong are not strictly the same as what is legal and what is not. That imperfect alignment is the topic of many of the discussions on this list. It may be idealistic and out of line with reality but no more so than is the idea that the law defines right and wrong, is absolute and in control. Besides, without a little idealism we'd all be eating the King's shit three times a day and telling ourselves it's delicious. SO, thanks bunches for your time. When I need legal advice I'll certainly hire a lawyer and not someone who prefaces his statements with IANAL. When I want to discuss opinions of what is right and what is wrong I already know enough to take what a lawyer says cum grano salis. Mike From codrea4 at home.com Mon Jul 30 19:16:04 2001 From: codrea4 at home.com (David and Maureen Codrea) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:16:04 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? References: <01C1193E.A7DF98C0.movwater@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <003501c11966$c82aeee0$d9200518@rdondo1.ca.home.com> Just a quick and abbreviated response: In re what Ashcroft can do as head of the DoJ: same thing they did after the 14th Am- protect rkba and other rights, albeit they did it there selectively. I'd like to see the DoJ prosecute a gov. agency for denying a citizen their 2A rights. You can bet THAT case would make it up to SCOTUS post-haste. Don't think that's likely, due to "pragmatism" and "compromise". I am heartened to see Metaja denied advancement- we shall see how they continue with Emerson, and if they pursue the current DoJ position... In re Project Exile, sorry, but you did not really answer my questions. While you don't mind if the fedgov usurps powers not enumerated to them if the cause is 'worthwhile', ie, taking a gangbanger off the streets, I am concerned more with the gov assuming powers that are not theirs- as heinous as the criminals are, they wreak nowhere near the human carnage and misery that governments unbound do- how much further down this slope are YOU willing to tolerate our descent? And, again, yeah, I know NRA says they are only to use such laws against really really REALLY bad guys- but my point is, and you have not refuted it, they CAN be applied to anyone. To think that a government, already operating extra-Constitutionally, is going to be ever bound by the niceties of interpreting the application of their "illegal" laws according to how the NRA wants them to do it, does not compute with me. I think your good intentions may just be paving the road to Hell here- probably not under Bush, but what about under Pres. Hillary? Sorry, no matter the motive, I just don't think the ends justify the means here. I don't recall advocating political firing squads, but as long as you bring it up, let me add one qualifier- I hope you agree with me that their jury of peers should be fully informed triers of law as well as fact? That's it for me on this. "Uncle!" Best, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal J. Lang" To: "David Codrea (E-mail)" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 6:29 PM Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang > > Hi, Dave, > Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. Sorry about the salutation > mix-up. > NRA Candidate Ratings: > Rep. Ron Paul: Aside from reiterating that politics is based on the art of > compromise, let me state that I was unaware of Congressman Ron Paul's (whom > I consider a giant in the area of all rights, not just the 2A) NRA "B" > rating. I will of course query the NRA (as I do whenever I learn of such > inconsistencies). Not wishing to be seen as an apologist, I suppose they > might suggest that Rep. Paul's opposition to a NRA supported Bill earned > him such a grade. After all, it is the NRA's rating system, so I suppose > they can provide the criteria. Again, being unaware of the particulars > (what Bill did Rep. Paul oppose? why? and why it was so important to the > NRA?) would help my evaluation of this specific situation. On its face, let > me express my disappointment (might I say sadness) in the NRA's chevalier > treatment of someone I consider a hero. > Rep. Mary Bono: In the Rep. Mary Bono rating, maybe I would chalk that one > up to wishful thinking. I believe her vote was reliable in Congress. So, > while perfection is reserved only for God and his Son, I might not be too > worried about this particular rating. > Senate Trent Lott: Here we agree, as I have long advocated the Senator > from Mississippi be replace as GOP Senate Leader with the senior Senator > from Texas. I personally blame Senator Lott for the loss of Republican > control of the Senate. Not because he didn't "kiss Senator Jeffords' > butt", but because he did. A stronger performance on his part in > leadership from 1996 - 2000 would have left less Republican carcasses on > the ground after the last election, IMMHO. That said, you don't get to be > the "Most Influential Lobby in Washington" without "kissing some butt". I > guess a case could be made that the Majority Leader of the Senate is as > good as any, if you really must "kiss butt". > Now, on balance, my friend, "like making sausage", effective politics > "ain't very pretty". I concede that sometimes the NRA "ratings scope" > might beg for some "fine tuning". However, to "rate" the NRA as the moral > equivalent to HCI, BCPGV, or whatever "alphabet soup" the "forces of evil" > have most recently metastasized into, really ventures way beyond > "hyperbole", IMMHO. > IN RE Mr. Ashcroft: > I agree that you did not mention Mr. Ashcroft, while your "rant" (your word > not mine - I prefer "passioned appeal") was at the end of a chain of > e-mails that did (see cc:'s to my e-mail). I, myself, do not know why the > Editors at the NRA decided to leave out General Ashcroft's footnotes when > they published his GREAT letter. I concur it would have been much better > to include said footnotes. > However, while you attribute this (oversight?) to some "dastardly plot" or > "total incompetence", I am a little more charitable. Maybe the journalists > at the NRA thought including that the "Attorney General commits to uphold > the law" was a little like publishing a story about a "dog biting a man". > I note that you loving cite "Marbury v. Madison" as establishing the > supremacy of the Fed Law over all else (by the way, did you know some > observers reference this case as the beginning of the "slippery slope" we > are rapidly descending today). Interestingly the phraseology "compelling > state interest" comes from a long line of Supreme Court cases (mostly on > free speech). So the accusation against General Ashcroft seems to be that > he is somehow violating Marbury vs. Madison by adhering to say Victoria > Buckley, Secretary of State of Colorado v. American Constitution Law > Foundation, Inc., et al. (1999). This "free political speech" case turns > on "compelling state interest". Justice Clarence Thomas' concurring > opinion uses that exact phraseology in its opening paragraph: > Justice Thomas , concurring in the judgment. When considering the constitutionality of a state election regulation that > restricts core political speech or imposes "severe burdens" on speech or > association, we have generally required that the law be narrowly tailored > to serve a compelling state interest. But if the law imposes "lesser > burdens," we have said that the State's important regulatory interests are > generally sufficient to justify reasonable, nondiscriminatory restrictions. > The Court today appears to depart from this now-settled approach. In my > view, Colorado's badge, registration, and reporting requirements each must > be evaluated under strict scrutiny. Judged by that exacting standard, I > agree with the majority that each of the challenged regulations violates > the First and Fourteenth Amendments, and accordingly concur only in the > judgment. (See the complete opinion at: > http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&c > ase=/us/000/97%2D930.html ) > I suppose in your U.S. of A. the Executive Branch officer, in this case the > A.G. makes the call on Constitutionality despite opinions from the Supremes > right on point. I think that would violate the "Original Intent" big time, > IMMHO. I (politely) suggest that you re-read Articles I through III and > see exactly what General Ashcroft took an oath to defend and preserve. > I think Karl Marx envisioned that wonderful utopia where everyone makes his > own laws. I believe they call it anarchy. Going back to the basics, Dave, > we must first understand why "men institute governments". According to the > "Declaration of Independence" it is to "secure these Rights". What rights? > The "Natural Rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". > That is the only reason for governments to exist (at least according to > our founders). Soooo! The only acceptable "compelling state interest" > must be related to securing these "Natural Rights". Nothing else can be > "compelling", IMMHO. IMMHO, both Justice Thomas and General Ashcroft feel > the same. > Would a future Supreme Court Associate Justice Ashcroft have adjudicated a > future Miller v. U.S. differently than the 1939 Supremes? I truly believe > he would. Will we ever get to find out? No, that letter causing all the > "weeping and gnashing of teeth" he wrote and shared with World probably > ended any chance for his nomination to the bench, much less his > confirmation. Can you say BORKING! What's more, I believe he knew it, but > wrote the letter anyway, because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO. That is > courage, IMMHO. Something we should be celebrating, not disparaging. > IN RE NRA practices and tactics: > Organizational politics are the pits, I agree. When (way back in '06) I > was State VP for the NJ Jaycees, I had a losing battle with one of my best > friend (at the time President of my local Jaycees Chapter) over the State > Presidential candidate to support. He ended up having our Chapter support > the WRONG (IMMHO) candidate, who lost, and thereby reduced the > effectiveness of our Chapter in Jaycee State politics. He promised to, and > then reneged on, allowing me to address the Chapter's delegates before > making the final decision on which candidate to support. I haven't spoken > to him since. But as Chapter President he had the "power" to call the > shots. > One of the reasons that the NRA is an effective organization, is because > they know how to play "hardball politics". Just ask Bill Clinton and Al > Gore. While it would be nice if "Robert's Rules of Order" applied to > organizational "power" (control) politics, the fact is that they don't. > "Can't all we just get along?" > IN RE gun laws that have been passed on the "winning team's" watch: > Dave, the worst "Gun Law" passed in the 20th Century was the "Gun Control > Act of 1968". That passed in the form that it did because the NRA at the > time (I was a member because I liked their magazine) was asleep. After > that wakeup call they have been pretty much on top of the game. They know > how to count votes as well (maybe better) than any party's "floor whip". > They know when to fight, and they know when to negotiate a "better deal". > "Galvanizing the gun owners" can be done, but I submit that it is BEST DONE > BY THE NRA, IMMHO. For example please see the 1994 Election. Now if you > are fair, Dave, you will agree that as far getting "gun owners" to the > polls, the NRA is the real 800 lb. gorilla. Getting the 80 million or so > "gun owners" seems to be a real challenge. After 8 years of the President, > the AG (General Janet "Judge Dredd - I am da law" Reno) and their cast of > thousands crapping all over the 2nd Amendment, I submit that in 2000 > "gun-owner voter turn-out" was quite "under-whelming". Possibly a large > number of them voted for Gore figuring he was just a "good ole boy from > Tennessee. > IN RE "Project Exile": > I have yet to see any NRA article, infomercial, advertisement, position > paper or statement stating that "Project Exile" should "target" > Lautenberg-type "firearms regulation violators". If you know of any, > please provide them to me. When I queried the NRA on that very subject > they stated that they believe that the purpose of "Project Exile" is to > crack-down on felons illegally possessing "firearms". I agree. If there > are felons working my neighborhood, illegally carrying a firearm, I would > prefer them put-away, thank you very much. Does the State have "compelling > interest" in do just that? IMMHO, YES. After all the first "Natural > Right" that government is "instituted to secure" is the "Right to Life". > If Mr. Felon is plying his "B & E" trade in my neighborhood "packing > heat", I would be most appreciative of "Boca's finest" taking him "off the > street" (on a gun violation) before he is surprised by my wife returning > from the mall unexpectedly, and he shoots her to death. > I have no problem with that type of "Project Exile", Dave. If you do, I > guess we agree to disagree. According to everything I have read about the > NRA's position that is exactly the way they see "Project Exile" working. > CRIMINAL, not CITIZEN DISARMAMENT, Dave. > An indication that this tact on the NRA's part has been effective is the > change seen in the opposition. It's hard to find today calls for more "gun > regulation" based on criminal miss-use from the anti-rights folks. The new > manta is "Firearms Safety". Why? Because the NRA has been so effective in > undermining the illogic of new gun control legislation based on "criminal > use" when current "criminal gun laws" on the books are not being enforced. > Americans can be quite logical sometimes, as polls on this very issue have > shown. Quite a clever and effective ploy on the part of the NRA, IMMHO. > As for Ruby Ridge and Waco, I believe that both cases centered on the > "Firearms Act of 1934". Pretty much a "tax evasion case". The only case > on the Act to reach the Supremes was Miller v. U.S. The court did not > exactly find the 1934 Act Constitutional, merely opining that the Feds > could tax firearms of "no militia value" (in Miller's case a short-barreled > shotgun). I wonder how the decision would come out had Miller been caught > with a Thompson? Hmmm! Of course that is the very thing Randy Weaver was > indicted for - possession of an Untaxed (and Registered) short-barreled > shotgun. The Branch Davidians case may have also involved the 1980's ban > on new "fully auto weapons", however, even though I believe they had a > Class 3 firearms dealer license. Personally, I think in both cases the > government was trying to "take out" the suspects in order to avoid a > possible challenge before the Supremes of these laws. > Allowing that the Miller Court never even looked at exactly where, under > "Commerce Cause", the "Firearms Act of 1934" might fit, I would love to see > the current Supremes take a case on this federal law. Justice Thomas' > opinion (either for the majority, in dissent or in concurrence) should be > priceless, IMMHO. > IN RE your premise on pragmatism and compromise: > Dave, it real tough to talk about rebellion, when we can't even get our > "forces" to polls. Lets look at both "slavery" and the "right to keep and > bear arms". One reason the 2nd Amendment was proposed and finally accepted > to the Constitution is the concept that "you cannot make slaves of armed > men". This concept goes back at least to Aristotle and possibly further. > How does one justify a "unalienable right to keep and bear arms" for all > men, based in part as a bulwark against "slavery", being included in a > document that institutes a government that condones that very institution? > If anyone can answer that question for me, I would sincerely appreciate > it. > The fact is, Dave, whether I would ask them or not, both Patrick Henry and > Samuel Adams (as well as Tom Jefferson, and James Madison, and George > Washington, and John Adams, et. al.) did compromise. The "Declaration of > Independence" was a compromise (Tom Jefferson wanted an anti-slavery > statement but didn't get it from the Continental Congress). The > Constitution of the United States was a compromise. (Read the Debates of > the Federal Convention at: http://www.constitution.org/dfc/dfc_0000.htm - > to see how much a compromise.) The "Bill of Rights" was a compromise. > James Madison didn't want them added to his Constitution, even after he > proposed them. (See Madison Proposal to Congress for a Bill of Rights at: > http://www.jmu.edu/madison/madprobll.htm# - to see how much its author > compromised.) > I, too, consider myself a "purest" when comes to both "fly-fishing" (dry > flies only, if the trout wont take dries - screw them) and "Natural > Rights". While governments are (should be) instituted only for the purpose > of "securing the People's Natural Rights" they seldom, if ever, met this > goal. "Natural Rights" are not capable of being compromised, IMMHO. Why? > "Unalienable" means that even you cannot give-up your "right to Life, > Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". How then can you compromise an > absolute? It would be like compromising on "gravity". You or I just > can't. > Where the compromise comes into play is in politics. If the founders did > not want politics (and compromise) to be part of the equation, the > Constitution would have instituted a government based on a King or > dictator, rather than giving all the power to the most political body - the > legislature. The question is where to draw the line. Apparently the > founders decided that the line could be drawn on the other side of slavery, > because that is what they did. This then begs the question, if the > "institution" (slavery) can be compromised on, why can't the defenses > against "slavery" - such as the "right to keep and bear arms"? Again, we > are confronted with a conundrum. It is a political conundrum from a > political document, the U.S. Constitution. > Being an absolutist on "Natural Rights" (as found in the "Declaration of > Independence") helps. But don't look for your "rock" in the > "Constitution". It ain't there in that "political" document. That is why > I have always contended that our "right to keep and bear arms" cannot > solely rely on the "Parchment Defence" of the Constitution and the 2nd > Amendment. IMMHO, our strongest defence is in the words of Jefferson, not > Madison. We need to use our "Natural Rights" as the reason we must enjoy > the "right to keep and bear arms". > As for "Civil Disobedience", the essence of which is, as both Gandhi and > King would tell you, if you are prepared to be jailed for your beliefs. I > suppose I am. I haven't been confronted with the opportunity, so I do not > know how I would react. It's "seeing the elephant". I haven't seen war > (civil or otherwise) so I really don't know how I would react when the > bullets are flying, shells are bursting, and my friends are dying around > me. I like to think I would be brave, a hero even - but, in truth, I just > don't know. > I concur (wholeheartedly) about continuing to work within the system. > After all, one of the "biggies" for the founders was "taxation without > representation". So far we can still vote for those guys that tax us > beyond the "Medieval Serfs". IMMHO, the "showdown" if (or when) it comes > will not be over the "right to keep and bear arms" but over some other item > (items) of individual rights. You will note that none of the items > included in King George's indictment in the "Declaration of Independence" > includes "citizen disarmament" (although we know such took place). The > real challenge for us "gun nuts" is to insure that sufficiently numerous > armed citizens exist if (when) the "scat hits the bladed cooling device". > As for Chuck Heston's (Moses?) gesture with a "musket", obviously it was > symbolic. Is he a true hero? I think so. His ideas and mine are pretty > close, at least based on his speeches and his book (I have an autographed > copy - To: "Smokewagon" From: "Chuck Heston"). I think he believes in > freedom, Dave, no matter what he thinks about the AK47. I believe many > "pro-rights" people have attacked him unfairly. It took real courage, > IMMHO, for someone from Hollywood to get so involved in 2nd Amendment > rights. I think he did "the cause" a whole lot of good. I say, "God bless > him." Would he "go to the mattresses" if the need arose? I really think > he would. He was, after all, already arrested for "civil disobedience" > during "civil rights marches" in the 1960's. > As for "civil disobedience" regarding California's "assault weapon" ban, I > suggest you use the General Ashcroft test for the Constitutionality of "Gun > Control Laws". That is does the State of California have a "compelling > interest" in banning certain semi-automatic and ugly (in the eyes of the > beholder) firearms. Unless the Government of the State of California > (Republic of California actually - see the U.S. Constitution) can show > where such a ban helps "secure the People's Life, Liberty and the Pursuit > of Happiness", such a law could be and should be the cause of "Civil > Disobedience". Go ahead, Dave, "Dump the tea in the harbor". But be > prepared, as the "Sons of Liberty" were, to "pay the piper". > Remember, however, Dave, based on the Constitution and Jurisprudence > starting even before Marbury v. Madison, that only what the Supremes deem > as unconstitutional is unconstitutional. Remember, also, that the Supremes > believe that privacy (arguably a civil right) trumps "Life" which is a > "Natural Right", at least according to the "Declaration of Independence". > I would not be surprised that the Supremes might find that the State > (especially Style-conscious California) would have a "state compelling > interest" in banning "ugly firearms". After all, they clash with so much > of the really hip beachwear don't they? > While I really feel sorry for you guys in the "Republic (Peoples?) of > California", I note that in the 2000 Election cycle "the People" (sheeple) > of California decided (overwhelmingly) instead for throwing "the > Oppressors" out - they would make rather us all suffer their same fate. > Hardly encouraging when you are planning a political turn-around, much > less a successful rebellion, IMMHO. > Dave, while I am "four square" by your side in the idea that some > "politicians" (oppressors) probably should be tried (due process by all > means) and then executed, I am merely trying to raise the fact that > "circular firing squad formations" may be hazardous to your health. > Please stay the course, my friend. I will continue to read with much > pleasure (and usually much amusement) your excellent verbal rockets. > Keep the Faith, > > Neal > Neal J. Lang (Signed) > E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net > > > From pmancus at prodigy.net Mon Jul 30 19:35:36 2001 From: pmancus at prodigy.net (Peter Mancus) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:35:36 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? References: <01C1186E.975E66A0.movwater@bellsouth.net> <009301c118bb$24e4a600$d9200518@rdondo1.ca.home.com> Message-ID: <007b01c11973$09015420$a97a6f40@peterman> Dear David and Neal: David, you continue to amaze me in a positive manner. For cotemporaneous, spontaneous writing that is not polished by a guy who is busy, you excel at manifesting the King's English, being a diplomat and expressing a clear appreciation for complex subtelties. I find the exchange between you and Neal to be most interesting reading. If the Gun Prohibitionists were to read your exchange they would have to conclude that each of you are most thoughtful citizens who certainly appear to be worthy of unregistered firearms. There is great truth in both of your viewpoints. There is no point in taking the time to split hairs in minutia. Please, I urge you, include me in all future such exchanges on any topic. I love being exposed to fine minds at work. --Peter Mancus ----- Original Message ----- From: "David and Maureen Codrea" To: Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 10:47 PM Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > Hi Neal, > > Lemme get a few disclaimers out of the way before I begin: > > #1- I don't know everyone on your list. I went ahead and "replied to all" > because I am assuming there is interest, and because it is my shady virtue > that is being questioned here...:-) If any of you have no desire to be part > of this exchange, please accept my apologies for intruding into your > e-lives. Let me know and I will see that you are not included in further > discussions. > > #2- I have added a couple other folks who I think may have an interest in > this. Again, if I am being presumptuous, please just send me a "drop dead" > flame and throw a brick through my window, and I will leave you off any > future exchange. > > #3- I generally don't have a lot of time for back-and-forth one-on-one > debating- I find my time more productively spent on my own agenda items, and > what with all the other limitations and demands, I may or may not be able to > get back to rebuttals or additional emails from others in a timely or > comprehensive manner. I sure don't want to get into an endless exchange > over this, as there are so many productive venues. > > ---- > > Let me begin by saying I do not consider your legitimate concerns to be a > flame. I'm a big boy and can take my lumps, and you have been > most...ummm...politic in stating your reservations and explaining the > reasoning behind them. You have a right to your say. I'm also sorry if I > made you "sad." > > I don't know if it's gonna be productive to take ALL the points of my piece > and ALL the points of your reply and interlineate comments and rebuttals. I > especially don't think it would be a very interesting read- I think, > instead, it would quickly devolve into something fragmented, and very hard > to follow. So I'd like to address this in generalities, with the further > qualification that I'm not out to try and score points at your expense, or > even to convince you that I am right and you are wrong; I can walk away > from this knowing that we disagree and still think highly of you. In fact, > I have heard the arguments you pose, in one form or another, before, so I > don't think my mind is going to change on this- and I cede to you the same. > > I began talking about NRA ratings. I think it has been pretty well > documented that they have on occasion given high ratings to politicians who > haven't necessarily earned them in the hope of establishing good will. I > have also seen the opposite occur, that is, a 2nd Amendment champion like > Ron Paul being downgraded NOT for his stance on 2A purity, but rather > because he opposed legislation being promoted by NRA. Surely, Neal, you > will not argue that Mary Bono is the equal to Ron Paul in terms of > Constitutional fidelity? Pragmatism aside, which rating system do you think > best exemplifies original intent: NRA's or GOA's? And would you at least > acknowledge describing Trent Lott as "stalwart" on the 2A is, at best, > hyperbole? > > In re Mr. Ashcroft, I believe if you look again, you will see that I did not > mention him at all, but rather, composed my rant in response to a thread > that did. I think the omission of his qualifying statement in re > "compelling state interest" in the official NRA journal has one of two > credible explanations: incompetence, or suppression of information. As I > don't "know" why it happened, I really cannot speculate further in any > fairness. That said, I do stipulate that he is no Janet Reno, and I am > encouraged by some of his statements, as well as disappointed by others. > You are correct that his proper function is to enforce the law; I would > submit that the supreme law of the land is clear, and that precedent > established in Marbury v Madison relegates anything in conflict with this > null and void. > > In re NRA practices and tactics, I have never seen a stockholders' report or > a proxy ballot where management urged owners to vote AGAINST a slate of > candidates. That such ads were paid for by private parties does not > diminish the fact that they appeared alongside official ballots. > > In re gun laws that have been passed on the "winning team's" watch, you may > be right that we would have seen much more draconian increments had the NRA > monolith not provided a breakwater. Then again, one can only speculate had > overreaching socialists tried compressing 25 years of citizen disarmament > into a shorter period; perhaps it would have horrified sleeping gun owners > and galvanized them into individual, spirited activism, and to organize > behind a fiercely uncompromising banner. Perhaps this would have scared our > attackers off. But we will never know- all we can see is what has > transpired, and I fear the heat has been turned up so slowly that the frog > may never escape the pot. > > In re "Project Exile," I have not seen a substantiated rebuttal to any of > the points I made, especially in re the activist I cited urging that they > instead adopt "enforce existing violent crime laws". So I'll just ask a > simple question or four: Where in the Constitution has the fedgov been > delegated the enumerated power to enforce ANY gun laws? Wouldn't the > Constitutionally-consistent position be to repeal these laws? Isn't such > enforcement precisely what precipitated Waco and Ruby Ridge? And if phrased > more precisely, would you and NRA management advocate enforcing existing > CITIZEN DISARMAMENT laws? > > In re your premise on pragmatism and compromise, as you have pointed out, > our Constitution was ratified through exactly that means. But the > compromise already happened. I hear you about the Civil War, but have to > ask you at what point would you say such rebellion might be justified, and a > preferable alternative to tyranny? Believe me, I do understand compromise > and do it every day, as do we all; I think the difference here is one of > tolerance threshold more than principle. And please don't think I am > offering my poor self up for comparison, but we need people to speak loudly > on uncompromised principle; you would not have urged Samuel Adams or Patrick > Henry to moderate, would you, Neal? And we know that the Republic we got > was nowhere near the ideal these men strived for, due to compromise, but wit > hout their strident voices stirring sentiment in a sufficiently critical > mass, how much more might it have been compromised? > > I don't know where your line in the sand would be to engage in civil > disobedience, or to physically resist, and I certainly would never presume > to challenge your convictions on that- but I am curious as to where exactly > you would say there can be no more compromise? If you have read my stuff, > you'll see I'm pretty consistent at advising that a time for physical > engagement is not (yet) upon us, as there are still means of redress > available; I therefore urge people to work within our system, not only > because it is pragmatic, but because it is a moral imperative that we > exhaust available resources before resorting to more drastic measures. > > But as much of a firebrand as you think my rant made me appear, it is not I > who held a gun up in front of a crowd and challenged "From my cold dead > hands!" What do you think Mr. Heston meant by that? Was it entirely > symbolic, or do you think he would urge NRA management supporters to shoot > and kill government agents attempting to disarm them? > > By the same token, where I have engaged in civil defiance, I have done so > because the chances of such recourse are questionable, and the violation of > rights by "officials" has been so blatant and repugnant: > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397d8e1c3a66.htm > > I believe, Neal, that right now, under certain circumstances, civil > resistance is warranted, and California's "assault weapons" ban certainly > seems to be a "reasonable" place to just say "no." I don't so much see this > position as one of civil diobedience as much as obedience to the supreme law > of the land over an unconstitutional, thus null and void, perversion of the > law. Yet it was NRA presenting the DoJ reps as people they can work with, > proud of their cordial relations, and mindful that the reps did not "have" > to come and address us- the folks whose leader holds up a musket and dares > you to kill him were facilitating our surrender without a fight. But of > course the DoJ did have to be there- because they were there to dictate the > terms of our surrender, and they wanted desperately to convince us that they > were serious about enforcing this "law"- after all, they, again, > desperately, didn't want to see transpire exactly what has- massive > noncompliance, making them look impotent. I am proud to have added my voice > to this, and would be pleased no end to think that it may have given others > some sense that they were not alone, that there is strength in numbers, and > that we must steel ourselves from caving. > > Anyway, that's about all I'm good for on this- I wrote way more than I set > out to- I really don't like working this way, as I'm pretty anal about > revising and rewriting my stuff a jillion times before releasing it- a rule > I broke in the rant that precipitated this- but you posed some fair > observations and deserve to have your concerns at least addressed, if not > resolved. I really don't know if I'll be up to another long rebuttal, so I > may or may not be able to give you satisfaction on future installments of > this thread- there is only so much time in my day for this, and I've just > exhausted it- tomorrow brings a new set of priorities. > > But this has been good for me- extemporaneous responses help to hone our > skills against our mutual opponents. Thanks for your thoughtful > correspondence and best regards. I look forward to our continued > communications, and to hanging together, but not hanging together, if ya get > my drift... > > Cordially, > David Codrea > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Neal J. Lang" > To: "David Codrea (E-mail)" > Cc: "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" ; ; > ; ; ; > ; > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 5:39 PM > Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > > > > E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang > > > > Hi, Pete, > > I was forwarded your e-mail on the above subject by Pete Mancus. As I was > > not an original recipient, I hope you don't consider my response > > impertinent. > > I read with interest (and sadness) your July 27th letter satirically > > belittling the National Rifle Association for celebrating arguably the > > "most important" political coup on behalf of the "individual right to keep > > and bear arms" in the last 8 years. > > I hope you don't find my corrective reply to be a flame, as I do not > intend > > it to be taken as such. I respect you and your efforts on behalf of "the > > cause" too much. > > This current epistle, while I believe errant, evidences the "passions" and > > "wit" that make all your correspondence a "joy" for those "true believers" > > who clearly see the "truth and the light". However, the underlying > concept > > that the NRA is "counter-productive" (and thereby, by implication, > > undeserving of our support) is wrong. I'll tell you why. > > First, your position (along with others) seems to suggest that the battle > > to restore our "unalienable rights" can be won without compromise. This > > position suggests that our Federal government and its Constitution were > > founded on "principles" that could never be compromised. > > Obviously, Dave, history tells a different story. After all, our > > founders, after engaging in a desperate struggle with the most powerful > > empire on earth over "principles" eloquently expressed in the "Declaration > > of Independence" instituted a government by ratifying a Constitution that > > codifies a "compromise" allowing slavery. A Nation born on the idea that > > "all men our created equal" allowed a government based on the > > "constitutional principle" that certain "man" count only a as "3/5th > > persons" and "untaxed" Native Americans don't count at all. > > Compared to the founders' "constitutional compromise" on "slavery", the > > NRA's giving ground on "Brady" in order to demand an "Insta-Check" and a > > "ban" on the government retaining records of purchasers is really quite > > minor. Interestingly, by including these provisions in "Brady", we have > > today a situation whereby America's chief lawman, General Ashcroft, can > > insist that records illegally retained by the FBI for 180 (or more) days, > > must be destroyed with 24 hours under the "rule of law". I see this as a > > "glass half-full", Dave, not "half-empty". If the NRA did not have a > place > > at the table to get demand this compromise, we would today be "truly" > > experiencing "totally unacceptable delays" in firearms purchases, along > > with a "permanent registry" of firearms buyers. To think that "Brady" > > would not have passed, despite NRA opposition, without these important > > compromises is quite delusional, IMMHO. > > The assault on Attorney General Ashcroft by "Constitutional zealots" is > > also quite delusional as well, IMMHO. To say that one believes in the > > "infallibility" of the U.S. Constitution and therefore I condemn the > > Nation's highest law enforcement officer for saying that he will serve his > > constitutional role by enforcing the law, is really quite illogical. If > > you understand the Constitution, you will see that it did nothing more the > > "institute a government". The form of government instituted was a > > "republic", a where everyone, "the People" as well as the "magistrates" > > must obey the law. > > Our constitution established three distinct branches, each with different > > authority and responsibility. > > Article. I. Section. 1. - "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be > > vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate > > and House of Representatives." > > Article. II. Section. 3. - "(H)e (the President) shall take Care that the > > Laws be faithfully executed..." > > Article III. Section. 1. - "The judicial Power of the United States shall > > be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the > Congress > > may from time to time ordain and establish." > > Article III. Section. 2. - "(T)he supreme Court shall have appellate Jur > > isdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such > > Regulations as the Congress shall make." > > The Executive branch, of which General Ashcroft is a member, must > > "faithfully execute" the laws that are passed by the Legislative Branch > and > > adjudicated by Judicial branch. When one of President Clinton's "White > > House Counsels" gleefully exclaimed, "Stroke of the pen, force of law, > > NEAT!" - we, the believers of Constitutional law, were justifiably > > horrified. Why than are we so quick to object to the Attorney General > when > > he states the obvious. He MUST uphold the law. He cannot on his own > usurp > > the authority of either the Congress or the Courts. In this he is living > > his oath of office and serving as an example of the kind of "true Original > > Intent" that has not been seen in Washington in at least 12 years, if not > > longer. > > The fact that he bravely committed his Department to the "true" meaning of > > the 2nd Amendment as an "individual right" should be the cause of great > > celebrations throughout our country by those of us who believe that "the > > People" in fact means individuals. Instead we "parse" his words and > > de-ride him for keeping his oath of office by "faithfully executing" the > > Federal code he inherited. Shooting organizations should be today > renaming > > "Practical Shooting Matches" after this courageous American and hero of > the > > 2nd Amendment. > > Dave, the undermining of our rights begins when governmental officials > > forget we have a government of laws. Our founders thought that Congress, > > not the Attorney General should make the laws of our country. General > > Ashcroft agrees. Historically, the Courts determine the Constitutionality > > our laws, not the Attorney General. General Ashcroft agrees. I think you > > should celebrate this victory, not commiserate when a public official > > recognizes it. > > I am glade you still retain your "life membership" in the NRA. However, > as > > a member, I am not sure you can see how this GREAT organization fits in > the > > scheme of the defense of our "unalienable rights" in the reality of 21st > > America. > > Personally, I believe neither the NRA, the Constitution, POTUS, the > > Attorney General, Congress, nor the Supreme Court have any bearing on the > > actual existence of any my "unalienable rights". I sleep peacefully every > > night in the knowledge that while my government may have the "power" to > > kill me, it does not have the "authority" to "separate me from these > > rights". In fact, I, myself, cannot even "give away" these "unalienable > > rights" if I wanted to - else they would not be "unalienable". > > The struggle to insure these rights "politically" in the "good old" U.S. > of > > A. must be fought on at least three fronts. These fronts are: > > 1. The Judicial - overturning existing "bad laws" in the Courts. This > > requires the nomination of good judges that understand the meaning of > > republic and the simple plan English of the U.S. Constitution. > > 2. The Legislative - passing new laws that correct existing "bad laws" and > > promote expansion of our 2nd Amendment rights to the States and local > > governments. This would be similar to the Civil Rights legislation of the > > 1960. This requires electing good Representatives that understand the > > Constitutional limits imposed on Congress. > > 3. The Promotional - to insure the appropriate "public relations" climate > > to insure items 1. and 2. This involves also election the "right" public > > officials to nominate the "right" kind of Justices and to pass the "right" > > kind of legislation. > > I submit, Dave, that the NRA is carrying the battle on these three most > > effectively. After all, being rated the "Most Influential" lobby in > > Washington indicates to me that the NRA is nothing if it is not effective. > > To fault the NRA in the absence of a more effective means of defending our > > rights is quite easy. If you analyze the "political" battlefield were > > meaning and effect of the 2nd Amendment as it stands today is being > > determined, you will find that: > > 1. Congress, as a whole, does not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or > > the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the NRA, for that matter. For this reason the NRA > > legislative strategy since 1968 has been a "rear guard" action. Through > > "political compromise" they attempted (and for the most part succeeded) to > > blunt the more onerous Federal and State laws invading our 2nd Amendment > > rights. > > 2. The Courts, in general, and the U.S. Supreme Court, in particular, do > > not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the > > NRA, for that matter. Through lifetime, "good Behaviour" tenure, most > > judges are "immune" to "politics". However, before their confirmations, > > the NRA can and does have some influence in the selection, nomination and > > confirmation of these Judges. Additionally, in very well prepared and > > persuasive "Amicus Briefs", the NRA helps promote an "unalienable, > > individual" 2nd Amendment Right in the courts. In fact, a fair reading > of > > their Amicus Curiae in Emerson would indicate that NRA position on > > Lautenberg parallels mine (and maybe yours?) - (it can be read at: > > http://www.saf.org/NRAbrief.htm ) - despite how you have painted it in > your > > letter. > > 3. The public at large ("the People" of the Constitution) generally does > > not see the 2nd Amendment the same as you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or > > the NRA, for that matter. This is our "PR gap". I think the NRA has been > > most effective on this front in the "battle", as well. While accepting > > their inevitable defeat in Congressional on the "Assault Weapons Ban", in > > 1994 the NRA came back with a "vengeance" that helped account for one of > > the most historic political "turnarounds" in U.S. history, giving control > > of Congress to the more "2nd Amendment friendly" Republicans. This caused > > our "true" enemies to institute those IRS audits about which you write in > > revenge for NRA part in their worse 20th Century political loss. > > Do I wish we lived in a utopia where all gun owners truly understood their > > rights and voted? You bet. But the sad truth is, Dave, many gun owners > > haven't a clue, and many of those that do, don't bother to vote. This is > > the "real world" in which the NRA is attempting to "hold the line". Do > > they make mistakes? Of course they do. But on balance, IMMHO, without > NRA > > we would be today looking at British-like total bans on all firearms. If > > you are fair, I think you will agree. > > While we need to help this organization to "stay on the mark", we also > must > > recognize their tremendous contribution. As such we must be careful not > to > > destroy this truly effective and necessary organization, as we attempt to > > promote the "true" meaning of "unalienable rights". I fear, my friend, > > that sometimes passionate words, even amongst friends and "true > believers", > > can also be damaging and counter-productive. > > One reason, Dave, I enjoy so much your "in your face" correspondence > > directed at the real "forces of evil" is the passion you display in > > "fighting the good fight". I love the way you verbally "hold them by > their > > nose while you kick their ass". However, that said, I also think when > > addressing the "choir", some check on passion in the direction of > > presenting the "all the facts" might be the "order of the day". While > > "tearing down" is sometimes necessary in order to "build-up", care must be > > used when instructing on "enemy recognition". > > A fair reading of this latest epistle of yours has the NRA as the "enemy". > > IMMHO, Dave, they are not. If enough of NRA members that truly respect > > you take you at your word, serious damage will be done to the NRA and also > > to our "right to keep and bear arms". If that happens, the opportunity > to > > re-take our "rights" on the three fronts of the Legislative; the Judiciary > > and the Public Opinion will be lost leaving only one "Civil War" as the > > only available option. I don't think I need to remind you, my friend, > that > > the last "Civil War", killed more Americans that all the conflicts we were > > involved in - combined. > > Remember, Dave, when it comes to "2nd Amendment rights", we will, in fact, > > "all hang separately, if we can't hang together". > > Keep the Faith, > > > > Neal > > Neal J. Lang (Signed) > > E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net > > > > > > > From movwater at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 30 17:59:54 2001 From: movwater at bellsouth.net (Neal J. Lang) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:59:54 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <01C1193A.95DA6500.movwater@bellsouth.net> Hi, Dave, First the disclaimers. #1- I don't know everyone on your list. I went ahead and "replied to all" because I am assuming there is interest, and because it is my shady virtue that is being questioned here...:-) If any of you have no desire to be part of this exchange, please accept my apologies for intruding into your e-lives. Let me know and I will see that you are not included in further discussions. Frankly, neither do I. They were all associated with the e-mails attached to your correspondence that I received from Pete. I cc:'ed Angel just to see if he was awake - he was! I really don't mine letting everyone in on our thoughts, but only if you feel the same. #2- I have added a couple other folks who I think may have an interest in this. Again, if I am being presumptuous, please just send me a "drop dead" flame and throw a brick through my window, and I will leave you off any future exchange. Please do, by all means. IMMHO, the more the merrier. #3- I generally don't have a lot of time for back-and-forth one-on-one debating- I find my time more productively spent on my own agenda items, and what with all the other limitations and demands, I may or may not be able to get back to rebuttals or additional emails from others in a timely or comprehensive manner. I sure don't want to get into an endless exchange over this, as there are so many productive venues. I can readily understand, Dave. It is a petty though, as you debate so well. Please participate (or not) at a pace that makes sense to you. I will always enjoy reading your correspondence, whether directed to me, or to other (more worthy) targets. I am not "blowing smoke", Dave, I do so enjoy your passionate epistles. My response follows. Keep the Faith, Neal ---- Let me begin by saying I do not consider your legitimate concerns to be a flame. I'm a big boy and can take my lumps, and you have been most...ummm...politic in stating your reservations and explaining the reasoning behind them. You have a right to your say. I'm also sorry if I made you "sad." I don't know if it's gonna be productive to take ALL the points of my piece and ALL the points of your reply and interlineate comments and rebuttals. I especially don't think it would be a very interesting read- I think, instead, it would quickly devolve into something fragmented, and very hard to follow. So I'd like to address this in generalities, with the further qualification that I'm not out to try and score points at your expense, or even to convince you that I am right and you are wrong; I can walk away from this knowing that we disagree and still think highly of you. In fact, I have heard the arguments you pose, in one form or another, before, so I don't think my mind is going to change on this- and I cede to you the same. I began talking about NRA ratings. I think it has been pretty well documented that they have on occasion given high ratings to politicians who haven't necessarily earned them in the hope of establishing good will. I have also seen the opposite occur, that is, a 2nd Amendment champion like Ron Paul being downgraded NOT for his stance on 2A purity, but rather because he opposed legislation being promoted by NRA. Surely, Neal, you will not argue that Mary Bono is the equal to Ron Paul in terms of Constitutional fidelity? Pragmatism aside, which rating system do you think best exemplifies original intent: NRA's or GOA's? And would you at least acknowledge describing Trent Lott as "stalwart" on the 2A is, at best, hyperbole? In re Mr. Ashcroft, I believe if you look again, you will see that I did not mention him at all, but rather, composed my rant in response to a thread that did. I think the omission of his qualifying statement in re "compelling state interest" in the official NRA journal has one of two credible explanations: incompetence, or suppression of information. As I don't "know" why it happened, I really cannot speculate further in any fairness. That said, I do stipulate that he is no Janet Reno, and I am encouraged by some of his statements, as well as disappointed by others. You are correct that his proper function is to enforce the law; I would submit that the supreme law of the land is clear, and that precedent established in Marbury v Madison relegates anything in conflict with this null and void. In re NRA practices and tactics, I have never seen a stockholders' report or a proxy ballot where management urged owners to vote AGAINST a slate of candidates. That such ads were paid for by private parties does not diminish the fact that they appeared alongside official ballots. In re gun laws that have been passed on the "winning team's" watch, you may be right that we would have seen much more draconian increments had the NRA monolith not provided a breakwater. Then again, one can only speculate had overreaching socialists tried compressing 25 years of citizen disarmament into a shorter period; perhaps it would have horrified sleeping gun owners and galvanized them into individual, spirited activism, and to organize behind a fiercely uncompromising banner. Perhaps this would have scared our attackers off. But we will never know- all we can see is what has transpired, and I fear the heat has been turned up so slowly that the frog may never escape the pot. In re "Project Exile," I have not seen a substantiated rebuttal to any of the points I made, especially in re the activist I cited urging that they instead adopt "enforce existing violent crime laws". So I'll just ask a simple question or four: Where in the Constitution has the fedgov been delegated the enumerated power to enforce ANY gun laws? Wouldn't the Constitutionally-consistent position be to repeal these laws? Isn't such enforcement precisely what precipitated Waco and Ruby Ridge? And if phrased more precisely, would you and NRA management advocate enforcing existing CITIZEN DISARMAMENT laws? In re your premise on pragmatism and compromise, as you have pointed out, our Constitution was ratified through exactly that means. But the compromise already happened. I hear you about the Civil War, but have to ask you at what point would you say such rebellion might be justified, and a preferable alternative to tyranny? Believe me, I do understand compromise and do it every day, as do we all; I think the difference here is one of tolerance threshold more than principle. And please don't think I am offering my poor self up for comparison, but we need people to speak loudly on uncompromised principle; you would not have urged Samuel Adams or Patrick Henry to moderate, would you, Neal? And we know that the Republic we got was nowhere near the ideal these men strived for, due to compromise, but wit hout their strident voices stirring sentiment in a sufficiently critical mass, how much more might it have been compromised? I don't know where your line in the sand would be to engage in civil disobedience, or to physically resist, and I certainly would never presume to challenge your convictions on that- but I am curious as to where exactly you would say there can be no more compromise? If you have read my stuff, you'll see I'm pretty consistent at advising that a time for physical engagement is not (yet) upon us, as there are still means of redress available; I therefore urge people to work within our system, not only because it is pragmatic, but because it is a moral imperative that we exhaust available resources before resorting to more drastic measures. But as much of a firebrand as you think my rant made me appear, it is not I who held a gun up in front of a crowd and challenged "From my cold dead hands!" What do you think Mr. Heston meant by that? Was it entirely symbolic, or do you think he would urge NRA management supporters to shoot and kill government agents attempting to disarm them? By the same token, where I have engaged in civil defiance, I have done so because the chances of such recourse are questionable, and the violation of rights by "officials" has been so blatant and repugnant: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397d8e1c3a66.htm I believe, Neal, that right now, under certain circumstances, civil resistance is warranted, and California's "assault weapons" ban certainly seems to be a "reasonable" place to just say "no." I don't so much see this position as one of civil diobedience as much as obedience to the supreme law of the land over an unconstitutional, thus null and void, perversion of the law. Yet it was NRA presenting the DoJ reps as people they can work with, proud of their cordial relations, and mindful that the reps did not "have" to come and address us- the folks whose leader holds up a musket and dares you to kill him were facilitating our surrender without a fight. But of course the DoJ did have to be there- because they were there to dictate the terms of our surrender, and they wanted desperately to convince us that they were serious about enforcing this "law"- after all, they, again, desperately, didn't want to see transpire exactly what has- massive noncompliance, making them look impotent. I am proud to have added my voice to this, and would be pleased no end to think that it may have given others some sense that they were not alone, that there is strength in numbers, and that we must steel ourselves from caving. Anyway, that's about all I'm good for on this- I wrote way more than I set out to- I really don't like working this way, as I'm pretty anal about revising and rewriting my stuff a jillion times before releasing it- a rule I broke in the rant that precipitated this- but you posed some fair observations and deserve to have your concerns at least addressed, if not resolved. I really don't know if I'll be up to another long rebuttal, so I may or may not be able to give you satisfaction on future installments of this thread- there is only so much time in my day for this, and I've just exhausted it- tomorrow brings a new set of priorities. But this has been good for me- extemporaneous responses help to hone our skills against our mutual opponents. Thanks for your thoughtful correspondence and best regards. I look forward to our continued communications, and to hanging together, but not hanging together, if ya get my drift... Cordially, David Codrea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal J. Lang" To: "David Codrea (E-mail)" Cc: "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 5:39 PM Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang > > Hi, Pete, > I was forwarded your e-mail on the above subject by Pete Mancus. As I was > not an original recipient, I hope you don't consider my response > impertinent. > I read with interest (and sadness) your July 27th letter satirically > belittling the National Rifle Association for celebrating arguably the > "most important" political coup on behalf of the "individual right to keep > and bear arms" in the last 8 years. > I hope you don't find my corrective reply to be a flame, as I do not intend > it to be taken as such. I respect you and your efforts on behalf of "the > cause" too much. > This current epistle, while I believe errant, evidences the "passions" and > "wit" that make all your correspondence a "joy" for those "true believers" > who clearly see the "truth and the light". However, the underlying concept > that the NRA is "counter-productive" (and thereby, by implication, > undeserving of our support) is wrong. I'll tell you why. > First, your position (along with others) seems to suggest that the battle > to restore our "unalienable rights" can be won without compromise. This > position suggests that our Federal government and its Constitution were > founded on "principles" that could never be compromised. > Obviously, Dave, history tells a different story. After all, our > founders, after engaging in a desperate struggle with the most powerful > empire on earth over "principles" eloquently expressed in the "Declaration > of Independence" instituted a government by ratifying a Constitution that > codifies a "compromise" allowing slavery. A Nation born on the idea that > "all men our created equal" allowed a government based on the > "constitutional principle" that certain "man" count only a as "3/5th > persons" and "untaxed" Native Americans don't count at all. > Compared to the founders' "constitutional compromise" on "slavery", the > NRA's giving ground on "Brady" in order to demand an "Insta-Check" and a > "ban" on the government retaining records of purchasers is really quite > minor. Interestingly, by including these provisions in "Brady", we have > today a situation whereby America's chief lawman, General Ashcroft, can > insist that records illegally retained by the FBI for 180 (or more) days, > must be destroyed with 24 hours under the "rule of law". I see this as a > "glass half-full", Dave, not "half-empty". If the NRA did not have a place > at the table to get demand this compromise, we would today be "truly" > experiencing "totally unacceptable delays" in firearms purchases, along > with a "permanent registry" of firearms buyers. To think that "Brady" > would not have passed, despite NRA opposition, without these important > compromises is quite delusional, IMMHO. > The assault on Attorney General Ashcroft by "Constitutional zealots" is > also quite delusional as well, IMMHO. To say that one believes in the > "infallibility" of the U.S. Constitution and therefore I condemn the > Nation's highest law enforcement officer for saying that he will serve his > constitutional role by enforcing the law, is really quite illogical. If > you understand the Constitution, you will see that it did nothing more the > "institute a government". The form of government instituted was a > "republic", a where everyone, "the People" as well as the "magistrates" > must obey the law. > Our constitution established three distinct branches, each with different > authority and responsibility. > Article. I. Section. 1. - "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be > vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate > and House of Representatives." > Article. II. Section. 3. - "(H)e (the President) shall take Care that the > Laws be faithfully executed..." > Article III. Section. 1. - "The judicial Power of the United States shall > be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress > may from time to time ordain and establish." > Article III. Section. 2. - "(T)he supreme Court shall have appellate Jur > isdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such > Regulations as the Congress shall make." > The Executive branch, of which General Ashcroft is a member, must > "faithfully execute" the laws that are passed by the Legislative Branch and > adjudicated by Judicial branch. When one of President Clinton's "White > House Counsels" gleefully exclaimed, "Stroke of the pen, force of law, > NEAT!" - we, the believers of Constitutional law, were justifiably > horrified. Why than are we so quick to object to the Attorney General when > he states the obvious. He MUST uphold the law. He cannot on his own usurp > the authority of either the Congress or the Courts. In this he is living > his oath of office and serving as an example of the kind of "true Original > Intent" that has not been seen in Washington in at least 12 years, if not > longer. > The fact that he bravely committed his Department to the "true" meaning of > the 2nd Amendment as an "individual right" should be the cause of great > celebrations throughout our country by those of us who believe that "the > People" in fact means individuals. Instead we "parse" his words and > de-ride him for keeping his oath of office by "faithfully executing" the > Federal code he inherited. Shooting organizations should be today renaming > "Practical Shooting Matches" after this courageous American and hero of the > 2nd Amendment. > Dave, the undermining of our rights begins when governmental officials > forget we have a government of laws. Our founders thought that Congress, > not the Attorney General should make the laws of our country. General > Ashcroft agrees. Historically, the Courts determine the Constitutionality > our laws, not the Attorney General. General Ashcroft agrees. I think you > should celebrate this victory, not commiserate when a public official > recognizes it. > I am glade you still retain your "life membership" in the NRA. However, as > a member, I am not sure you can see how this GREAT organization fits in the > scheme of the defense of our "unalienable rights" in the reality of 21st > America. > Personally, I believe neither the NRA, the Constitution, POTUS, the > Attorney General, Congress, nor the Supreme Court have any bearing on the > actual existence of any my "unalienable rights". I sleep peacefully every > night in the knowledge that while my government may have the "power" to > kill me, it does not have the "authority" to "separate me from these > rights". In fact, I, myself, cannot even "give away" these "unalienable > rights" if I wanted to - else they would not be "unalienable". > The struggle to insure these rights "politically" in the "good old" U.S. of > A. must be fought on at least three fronts. These fronts are: > 1. The Judicial - overturning existing "bad laws" in the Courts. This > requires the nomination of good judges that understand the meaning of > republic and the simple plan English of the U.S. Constitution. > 2. The Legislative - passing new laws that correct existing "bad laws" and > promote expansion of our 2nd Amendment rights to the States and local > governments. This would be similar to the Civil Rights legislation of the > 1960. This requires electing good Representatives that understand the > Constitutional limits imposed on Congress. > 3. The Promotional - to insure the appropriate "public relations" climate > to insure items 1. and 2. This involves also election the "right" public > officials to nominate the "right" kind of Justices and to pass the "right" > kind of legislation. > I submit, Dave, that the NRA is carrying the battle on these three most > effectively. After all, being rated the "Most Influential" lobby in > Washington indicates to me that the NRA is nothing if it is not effective. > To fault the NRA in the absence of a more effective means of defending our > rights is quite easy. If you analyze the "political" battlefield were > meaning and effect of the 2nd Amendment as it stands today is being > determined, you will find that: > 1. Congress, as a whole, does not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or > the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the NRA, for that matter. For this reason the NRA > legislative strategy since 1968 has been a "rear guard" action. Through > "political compromise" they attempted (and for the most part succeeded) to > blunt the more onerous Federal and State laws invading our 2nd Amendment > rights. > 2. The Courts, in general, and the U.S. Supreme Court, in particular, do > not see the 2nd Amendment as do you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or the > NRA, for that matter. Through lifetime, "good Behaviour" tenure, most > judges are "immune" to "politics". However, before their confirmations, > the NRA can and does have some influence in the selection, nomination and > confirmation of these Judges. Additionally, in very well prepared and > persuasive "Amicus Briefs", the NRA helps promote an "unalienable, > individual" 2nd Amendment Right in the courts. In fact, a fair reading of > their Amicus Curiae in Emerson would indicate that NRA position on > Lautenberg parallels mine (and maybe yours?) - (it can be read at: > http://www.saf.org/NRAbrief.htm ) - despite how you have painted it in your > letter. > 3. The public at large ("the People" of the Constitution) generally does > not see the 2nd Amendment the same as you or I, or the GOA, JPFO, COA, or > the NRA, for that matter. This is our "PR gap". I think the NRA has been > most effective on this front in the "battle", as well. While accepting > their inevitable defeat in Congressional on the "Assault Weapons Ban", in > 1994 the NRA came back with a "vengeance" that helped account for one of > the most historic political "turnarounds" in U.S. history, giving control > of Congress to the more "2nd Amendment friendly" Republicans. This caused > our "true" enemies to institute those IRS audits about which you write in > revenge for NRA part in their worse 20th Century political loss. > Do I wish we lived in a utopia where all gun owners truly understood their > rights and voted? You bet. But the sad truth is, Dave, many gun owners > haven't a clue, and many of those that do, don't bother to vote. This is > the "real world" in which the NRA is attempting to "hold the line". Do > they make mistakes? Of course they do. But on balance, IMMHO, without NRA > we would be today looking at British-like total bans on all firearms. If > you are fair, I think you will agree. > While we need to help this organization to "stay on the mark", we also must > recognize their tremendous contribution. As such we must be careful not to > destroy this truly effective and necessary organization, as we attempt to > promote the "true" meaning of "unalienable rights". I fear, my friend, > that sometimes passionate words, even amongst friends and "true believers", > can also be damaging and counter-productive. > One reason, Dave, I enjoy so much your "in your face" correspondence > directed at the real "forces of evil" is the passion you display in > "fighting the good fight". I love the way you verbally "hold them by their > nose while you kick their ass". However, that said, I also think when > addressing the "choir", some check on passion in the direction of > presenting the "all the facts" might be the "order of the day". While > "tearing down" is sometimes necessary in order to "build-up", care must be > used when instructing on "enemy recognition". > A fair reading of this latest epistle of yours has the NRA as the "enemy". > IMMHO, Dave, they are not. If enough of NRA members that truly respect > you take you at your word, serious damage will be done to the NRA and also > to our "right to keep and bear arms". If that happens, the opportunity to > re-take our "rights" on the three fronts of the Legislative; the Judiciary > and the Public Opinion will be lost leaving only one "Civil War" as the > only available option. I don't think I need to remind you, my friend, that > the last "Civil War", killed more Americans that all the conflicts we were > involved in - combined. > Remember, Dave, when it comes to "2nd Amendment rights", we will, in fact, > "all hang separately, if we can't hang together". > Keep the Faith, > > Neal > Neal J. Lang (Signed) > E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net > > > From dial911book at yahoo.com Mon Jul 30 21:00:56 2001 From: dial911book at yahoo.com (Richard Stevens) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please Mr. Wienke, help me out on this In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06779A@MISSERVER> Message-ID: <20010731040056.56415.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Wienke, Please -- I don't need a copy of the page -- I subscribe to the magazine and have the July 2001 issue in my possession. Just give me the page number where that material might be found in the American Rifleman. --Richard Stevens --- Jonathan Wienke wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I don't have the magazine in front of me, but if > you'd like, I could > scan the page and send you a JPEG or something like > that of it. I > don't think the NRA is as good a defender of the > Second Amendment as > it could be, and ditto with John Ashcroft, but at > least they aren't > trying to totally nuke our freedoms like Clinton, > Janet Reno & > Handgun Control Incorporated. > > Jonathan Wienke > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From movwater at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 30 18:29:02 2001 From: movwater at bellsouth.net (Neal J. Lang) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:29:02 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <01C1193E.A7DF98C0.movwater@bellsouth.net> E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang Hi, Dave, Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. Sorry about the salutation mix-up. NRA Candidate Ratings: Rep. Ron Paul: Aside from reiterating that politics is based on the art of compromise, let me state that I was unaware of Congressman Ron Paul's (whom I consider a giant in the area of all rights, not just the 2A) NRA "B" rating. I will of course query the NRA (as I do whenever I learn of such inconsistencies). Not wishing to be seen as an apologist, I suppose they might suggest that Rep. Paul's opposition to a NRA supported Bill earned him such a grade. After all, it is the NRA's rating system, so I suppose they can provide the criteria. Again, being unaware of the particulars (what Bill did Rep. Paul oppose? why? and why it was so important to the NRA?) would help my evaluation of this specific situation. On its face, let me express my disappointment (might I say sadness) in the NRA's chevalier treatment of someone I consider a hero. Rep. Mary Bono: In the Rep. Mary Bono rating, maybe I would chalk that one up to wishful thinking. I believe her vote was reliable in Congress. So, while perfection is reserved only for God and his Son, I might not be too worried about this particular rating. Senate Trent Lott: Here we agree, as I have long advocated the Senator from Mississippi be replace as GOP Senate Leader with the senior Senator from Texas. I personally blame Senator Lott for the loss of Republican control of the Senate. Not because he didn't "kiss Senator Jeffords' butt", but because he did. A stronger performance on his part in leadership from 1996 - 2000 would have left less Republican carcasses on the ground after the last election, IMMHO. That said, you don't get to be the "Most Influential Lobby in Washington" without "kissing some butt". I guess a case could be made that the Majority Leader of the Senate is as good as any, if you really must "kiss butt". Now, on balance, my friend, "like making sausage", effective politics "ain't very pretty". I concede that sometimes the NRA "ratings scope" might beg for some "fine tuning". However, to "rate" the NRA as the moral equivalent to HCI, BCPGV, or whatever "alphabet soup" the "forces of evil" have most recently metastasized into, really ventures way beyond "hyperbole", IMMHO. IN RE Mr. Ashcroft: I agree that you did not mention Mr. Ashcroft, while your "rant" (your word not mine - I prefer "passioned appeal") was at the end of a chain of e-mails that did (see cc:'s to my e-mail). I, myself, do not know why the Editors at the NRA decided to leave out General Ashcroft's footnotes when they published his GREAT letter. I concur it would have been much better to include said footnotes. However, while you attribute this (oversight?) to some "dastardly plot" or "total incompetence", I am a little more charitable. Maybe the journalists at the NRA thought including that the "Attorney General commits to uphold the law" was a little like publishing a story about a "dog biting a man". I note that you loving cite "Marbury v. Madison" as establishing the supremacy of the Fed Law over all else (by the way, did you know some observers reference this case as the beginning of the "slippery slope" we are rapidly descending today). Interestingly the phraseology "compelling state interest" comes from a long line of Supreme Court cases (mostly on free speech). So the accusation against General Ashcroft seems to be that he is somehow violating Marbury vs. Madison by adhering to say Victoria Buckley, Secretary of State of Colorado v. American Constitution Law Foundation, Inc., et al. (1999). This "free political speech" case turns on "compelling state interest". Justice Clarence Thomas' concurring opinion uses that exact phraseology in its opening paragraph: Justice Thomas , concurring in the judgment. When considering the constitutionality of a state election regulation that restricts core political speech or imposes "severe burdens" on speech or association, we have generally required that the law be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest. But if the law imposes "lesser burdens," we have said that the State's important regulatory interests are generally sufficient to justify reasonable, nondiscriminatory restrictions. The Court today appears to depart from this now-settled approach. In my view, Colorado's badge, registration, and reporting requirements each must be evaluated under strict scrutiny. Judged by that exacting standard, I agree with the majority that each of the challenged regulations violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments, and accordingly concur only in the judgment. (See the complete opinion at: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&c ase=/us/000/97%2D930.html ) I suppose in your U.S. of A. the Executive Branch officer, in this case the A.G. makes the call on Constitutionality despite opinions from the Supremes right on point. I think that would violate the "Original Intent" big time, IMMHO. I (politely) suggest that you re-read Articles I through III and see exactly what General Ashcroft took an oath to defend and preserve. I think Karl Marx envisioned that wonderful utopia where everyone makes his own laws. I believe they call it anarchy. Going back to the basics, Dave, we must first understand why "men institute governments". According to the "Declaration of Independence" it is to "secure these Rights". What rights? The "Natural Rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". That is the only reason for governments to exist (at least according to our founders). Soooo! The only acceptable "compelling state interest" must be related to securing these "Natural Rights". Nothing else can be "compelling", IMMHO. IMMHO, both Justice Thomas and General Ashcroft feel the same. Would a future Supreme Court Associate Justice Ashcroft have adjudicated a future Miller v. U.S. differently than the 1939 Supremes? I truly believe he would. Will we ever get to find out? No, that letter causing all the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" he wrote and shared with World probably ended any chance for his nomination to the bench, much less his confirmation. Can you say BORKING! What's more, I believe he knew it, but wrote the letter anyway, because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO. That is courage, IMMHO. Something we should be celebrating, not disparaging. IN RE NRA practices and tactics: Organizational politics are the pits, I agree. When (way back in '06) I was State VP for the NJ Jaycees, I had a losing battle with one of my best friend (at the time President of my local Jaycees Chapter) over the State Presidential candidate to support. He ended up having our Chapter support the WRONG (IMMHO) candidate, who lost, and thereby reduced the effectiveness of our Chapter in Jaycee State politics. He promised to, and then reneged on, allowing me to address the Chapter's delegates before making the final decision on which candidate to support. I haven't spoken to him since. But as Chapter President he had the "power" to call the shots. One of the reasons that the NRA is an effective organization, is because they know how to play "hardball politics". Just ask Bill Clinton and Al Gore. While it would be nice if "Robert's Rules of Order" applied to organizational "power" (control) politics, the fact is that they don't. "Can't all we just get along?" IN RE gun laws that have been passed on the "winning team's" watch: Dave, the worst "Gun Law" passed in the 20th Century was the "Gun Control Act of 1968". That passed in the form that it did because the NRA at the time (I was a member because I liked their magazine) was asleep. After that wakeup call they have been pretty much on top of the game. They know how to count votes as well (maybe better) than any party's "floor whip". They know when to fight, and they know when to negotiate a "better deal". "Galvanizing the gun owners" can be done, but I submit that it is BEST DONE BY THE NRA, IMMHO. For example please see the 1994 Election. Now if you are fair, Dave, you will agree that as far getting "gun owners" to the polls, the NRA is the real 800 lb. gorilla. Getting the 80 million or so "gun owners" seems to be a real challenge. After 8 years of the President, the AG (General Janet "Judge Dredd - I am da law" Reno) and their cast of thousands crapping all over the 2nd Amendment, I submit that in 2000 "gun-owner voter turn-out" was quite "under-whelming". Possibly a large number of them voted for Gore figuring he was just a "good ole boy from Tennessee. IN RE "Project Exile": I have yet to see any NRA article, infomercial, advertisement, position paper or statement stating that "Project Exile" should "target" Lautenberg-type "firearms regulation violators". If you know of any, please provide them to me. When I queried the NRA on that very subject they stated that they believe that the purpose of "Project Exile" is to crack-down on felons illegally possessing "firearms". I agree. If there are felons working my neighborhood, illegally carrying a firearm, I would prefer them put-away, thank you very much. Does the State have "compelling interest" in do just that? IMMHO, YES. After all the first "Natural Right" that government is "instituted to secure" is the "Right to Life". If Mr. Felon is plying his "B & E" trade in my neighborhood "packing heat", I would be most appreciative of "Boca's finest" taking him "off the street" (on a gun violation) before he is surprised by my wife returning from the mall unexpectedly, and he shoots her to death. I have no problem with that type of "Project Exile", Dave. If you do, I guess we agree to disagree. According to everything I have read about the NRA's position that is exactly the way they see "Project Exile" working. CRIMINAL, not CITIZEN DISARMAMENT, Dave. An indication that this tact on the NRA's part has been effective is the change seen in the opposition. It's hard to find today calls for more "gun regulation" based on criminal miss-use from the anti-rights folks. The new manta is "Firearms Safety". Why? Because the NRA has been so effective in undermining the illogic of new gun control legislation based on "criminal use" when current "criminal gun laws" on the books are not being enforced. Americans can be quite logical sometimes, as polls on this very issue have shown. Quite a clever and effective ploy on the part of the NRA, IMMHO. As for Ruby Ridge and Waco, I believe that both cases centered on the "Firearms Act of 1934". Pretty much a "tax evasion case". The only case on the Act to reach the Supremes was Miller v. U.S. The court did not exactly find the 1934 Act Constitutional, merely opining that the Feds could tax firearms of "no militia value" (in Miller's case a short-barreled shotgun). I wonder how the decision would come out had Miller been caught with a Thompson? Hmmm! Of course that is the very thing Randy Weaver was indicted for - possession of an Untaxed (and Registered) short-barreled shotgun. The Branch Davidians case may have also involved the 1980's ban on new "fully auto weapons", however, even though I believe they had a Class 3 firearms dealer license. Personally, I think in both cases the government was trying to "take out" the suspects in order to avoid a possible challenge before the Supremes of these laws. Allowing that the Miller Court never even looked at exactly where, under "Commerce Cause", the "Firearms Act of 1934" might fit, I would love to see the current Supremes take a case on this federal law. Justice Thomas' opinion (either for the majority, in dissent or in concurrence) should be priceless, IMMHO. IN RE your premise on pragmatism and compromise: Dave, it real tough to talk about rebellion, when we can't even get our "forces" to polls. Lets look at both "slavery" and the "right to keep and bear arms". One reason the 2nd Amendment was proposed and finally accepted to the Constitution is the concept that "you cannot make slaves of armed men". This concept goes back at least to Aristotle and possibly further. How does one justify a "unalienable right to keep and bear arms" for all men, based in part as a bulwark against "slavery", being included in a document that institutes a government that condones that very institution? If anyone can answer that question for me, I would sincerely appreciate it. The fact is, Dave, whether I would ask them or not, both Patrick Henry and Samuel Adams (as well as Tom Jefferson, and James Madison, and George Washington, and John Adams, et. al.) did compromise. The "Declaration of Independence" was a compromise (Tom Jefferson wanted an anti-slavery statement but didn't get it from the Continental Congress). The Constitution of the United States was a compromise. (Read the Debates of the Federal Convention at: http://www.constitution.org/dfc/dfc_0000.htm - to see how much a compromise.) The "Bill of Rights" was a compromise. James Madison didn't want them added to his Constitution, even after he proposed them. (See Madison Proposal to Congress for a Bill of Rights at: http://www.jmu.edu/madison/madprobll.htm# - to see how much its author compromised.) I, too, consider myself a "purest" when comes to both "fly-fishing" (dry flies only, if the trout wont take dries - screw them) and "Natural Rights". While governments are (should be) instituted only for the purpose of "securing the People's Natural Rights" they seldom, if ever, met this goal. "Natural Rights" are not capable of being compromised, IMMHO. Why? "Unalienable" means that even you cannot give-up your "right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". How then can you compromise an absolute? It would be like compromising on "gravity". You or I just can't. Where the compromise comes into play is in politics. If the founders did not want politics (and compromise) to be part of the equation, the Constitution would have instituted a government based on a King or dictator, rather than giving all the power to the most political body - the legislature. The question is where to draw the line. Apparently the founders decided that the line could be drawn on the other side of slavery, because that is what they did. This then begs the question, if the "institution" (slavery) can be compromised on, why can't the defenses against "slavery" - such as the "right to keep and bear arms"? Again, we are confronted with a conundrum. It is a political conundrum from a political document, the U.S. Constitution. Being an absolutist on "Natural Rights" (as found in the "Declaration of Independence") helps. But don't look for your "rock" in the "Constitution". It ain't there in that "political" document. That is why I have always contended that our "right to keep and bear arms" cannot solely rely on the "Parchment Defence" of the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment. IMMHO, our strongest defence is in the words of Jefferson, not Madison. We need to use our "Natural Rights" as the reason we must enjoy the "right to keep and bear arms". As for "Civil Disobedience", the essence of which is, as both Gandhi and King would tell you, if you are prepared to be jailed for your beliefs. I suppose I am. I haven't been confronted with the opportunity, so I do not know how I would react. It's "seeing the elephant". I haven't seen war (civil or otherwise) so I really don't know how I would react when the bullets are flying, shells are bursting, and my friends are dying around me. I like to think I would be brave, a hero even - but, in truth, I just don't know. I concur (wholeheartedly) about continuing to work within the system. After all, one of the "biggies" for the founders was "taxation without representation". So far we can still vote for those guys that tax us beyond the "Medieval Serfs". IMMHO, the "showdown" if (or when) it comes will not be over the "right to keep and bear arms" but over some other item (items) of individual rights. You will note that none of the items included in King George's indictment in the "Declaration of Independence" includes "citizen disarmament" (although we know such took place). The real challenge for us "gun nuts" is to insure that sufficiently numerous armed citizens exist if (when) the "scat hits the bladed cooling device". As for Chuck Heston's (Moses?) gesture with a "musket", obviously it was symbolic. Is he a true hero? I think so. His ideas and mine are pretty close, at least based on his speeches and his book (I have an autographed copy - To: "Smokewagon" From: "Chuck Heston"). I think he believes in freedom, Dave, no matter what he thinks about the AK47. I believe many "pro-rights" people have attacked him unfairly. It took real courage, IMMHO, for someone from Hollywood to get so involved in 2nd Amendment rights. I think he did "the cause" a whole lot of good. I say, "God bless him." Would he "go to the mattresses" if the need arose? I really think he would. He was, after all, already arrested for "civil disobedience" during "civil rights marches" in the 1960's. As for "civil disobedience" regarding California's "assault weapon" ban, I suggest you use the General Ashcroft test for the Constitutionality of "Gun Control Laws". That is does the State of California have a "compelling interest" in banning certain semi-automatic and ugly (in the eyes of the beholder) firearms. Unless the Government of the State of California (Republic of California actually - see the U.S. Constitution) can show where such a ban helps "secure the People's Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", such a law could be and should be the cause of "Civil Disobedience". Go ahead, Dave, "Dump the tea in the harbor". But be prepared, as the "Sons of Liberty" were, to "pay the piper". Remember, however, Dave, based on the Constitution and Jurisprudence starting even before Marbury v. Madison, that only what the Supremes deem as unconstitutional is unconstitutional. Remember, also, that the Supremes believe that privacy (arguably a civil right) trumps "Life" which is a "Natural Right", at least according to the "Declaration of Independence". I would not be surprised that the Supremes might find that the State (especially Style-conscious California) would have a "state compelling interest" in banning "ugly firearms". After all, they clash with so much of the really hip beachwear don't they? While I really feel sorry for you guys in the "Republic (Peoples?) of California", I note that in the 2000 Election cycle "the People" (sheeple) of California decided (overwhelmingly) instead for throwing "the Oppressors" out - they would make rather us all suffer their same fate. Hardly encouraging when you are planning a political turn-around, much less a successful rebellion, IMMHO. Dave, while I am "four square" by your side in the idea that some "politicians" (oppressors) probably should be tried (due process by all means) and then executed, I am merely trying to raise the fact that "circular firing squad formations" may be hazardous to your health. Please stay the course, my friend. I will continue to read with much pleasure (and usually much amusement) your excellent verbal rockets. Keep the Faith, Neal Neal J. Lang (Signed) E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net From lopes at mexico.com Mon Jul 30 21:45:34 2001 From: lopes at mexico.com (Dolores) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:45:34 Subject: 50 SEX Sites in ONE Affiliate Portal................. Message-ID: <200107302335.f6UNZBJ04260@rigel.cyberpass.net> Ask yourself these questions: Would a few thousand dollars extra each month make a difference? Can you spare a few hours each week to earn the extra dollars? If the answer is yes to these simple questions, and you have a PC with Internet access, then you can get involved with the 40 BILLION Dollar Adult Entertainment Industry. *** FREE Hosted Web Site *** *** FREE Help & Promotional programs *** In fact - ALL you will EVER need to get involved in this business at the HIGHEST level IMMEDIATELY. For more information click on the following link: mailto: freereply at ultimateresponder.com?subject=More_Info If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please do NOT reply to this message. From lopes at mexico.com Mon Jul 30 21:45:39 2001 From: lopes at mexico.com (Dolores) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:45:39 Subject: 50 SEX Sites in ONE Affiliate Portal................. Message-ID: <200107301944.MAA13741@ecotone.toad.com> Ask yourself these questions: Would a few thousand dollars extra each month make a difference? Can you spare a few hours each week to earn the extra dollars? If the answer is yes to these simple questions, and you have a PC with Internet access, then you can get involved with the 40 BILLION Dollar Adult Entertainment Industry. *** FREE Hosted Web Site *** *** FREE Help & Promotional programs *** In fact - ALL you will EVER need to get involved in this business at the HIGHEST level IMMEDIATELY. For more information click on the following link: mailto: freereply at ultimateresponder.com?subject=More_Info If you do not wish to receive further mailings, please do NOT reply to this message. From alan at clueserver.org Mon Jul 30 23:33:11 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:33:11 -0700 Subject: New Singapore surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour(fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010731084750.9EF516E42@clueserver.org> Am I the only one reminded of the story "Agent of Chaos" by Norman Spinrad? And Singapore would be just the type of place to make violation of the unusual action protocol a capital offense. On Monday 30 July 2001 06:04, Eugene Leitl wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:40:36 -0400 > From: Matthew Gaylor > Reply-To: extropians at extropy.org > To: extropians at extropy.org > Subject: New Singapore surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour > > Surveillance software can detect abnormal behaviour > > Friday July 27 7:38 AM ET > > New Singapore Software Can Beef Up Surveillance > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010727/tc/tech_singapore_software_dc_1.ht >ml > > SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Singapore scientists have created new software which > may beef up surveillance efforts in the future by distinguishing between a > person's normal activities and suspicious behavior. > > The software created by researchers at the Nanyang Technological University > can tell the difference between people walking, talking and acting > normally, and abnormal behavior such as a fight or someone collapsing. > > The Singapore team recorded and classified 73 features of human movement, > such as speed, direction, shape and pattern. > > The features were then used with existing ``neural network'' software, > which can learn and remember patterns, to create a new program. > > ``Each of the features is actually generated from a formula ...then the > learning software will be able to classify certain motion as normal or > abnormal,'' associate professor Maylor Leung told Reuters on Friday. > > ``It's something new. No one has tried (developing it) and so far we are > successful,'' he said. > > Images fed to the software, such as from a surveillance camera, are > analyzed almost instantly and with 96 percent accuracy, Leung said. > > The software can trigger an alarm when unusual movements are detected, > making it well suited for surveillance. > > Creating the artificial intelligence needed to recognize complex human > motion has been a challenge, Leung said. > > It is difficult for the human eye to accurately judge motion, such as > speed, and even harder for a software program to do so, he said. > > Leung is looking for partners to commercialize the software. The research, > which took two and a half years, is pending publication in several > technical journals. > > __________________________________________________________________________ > Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in > receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. > --- > > ************************************************************************** > Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues > Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA > on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) > Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ > ************************************************************************** From codrea4 at home.com Mon Jul 30 23:35:55 2001 From: codrea4 at home.com (David and Maureen Codrea) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:35:55 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? References: <01C1195B.8DD8D280.movwater@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <011301c1198b$10dc34e0$d9200518@rdondo1.ca.home.com> Jeez, I can't let this one go by... First- I dropped that guy what-his-name from distribution because he wanted off. Plenty of stuff on 14A by Kopel and Halbrook pointing out how 2A was integral to it, and how the incorporation doctrine flies in the face of its framers. We can speak theoretically of how it may not have been properly ratified, but it is legally recognized in the here and now, and until it is overturned or repealed, it is something the AG, as you point out, is compelled to uphold. I have never claimed to be a big Marbury fan- I merely cited one important quotation from it that had relevance to the topic. That quotation could have come from Dred Scott as far as I'm concerned and it would still be true, even though the decision of that case was repellant. Nowhere have I ever maintained that a felon should be able to use a gun in a crime and not get punished big time. This is a misinterpretation of my arguments, as my concern was for people like you and I getting caught up in the enforcement of existing gun laws, which are and remain, as I pointed out earlier, EXISTING CIVILIAN DISARMAMENT laws. I didn't say PE WAS taking honest citizens off the street, I said that once you open the door to these kinds of laws, enforcement can reflect the policies of the administration in power, and that once you tolerate usurpations of power, important checks against abuse have been ceded. Yes, we must have strong laws to punish violent criminals; I merely suggest that we can do this without violating the Constitution. For starters, we can all; be safer against predators if we repeal, instead of enforce, unconstitutional gun control laws, as all they do is make it safer for the criminals to operate- isn't that superior to eroding our mutual (and as you pointed out) inalienable rights? Personally, I think your wife OUGHT to be able to have a firearm on school grounds, and concealed on her person, and that it should be able to hold more than 10 rounds and be semiautomatic, and even be newly purchased even though it is on a federal "ban" list. I think she ought to be able to have a gun even if she got in a fight and was convicted of misdemeanor assault. These are existing gun laws, and if she violates them, they can carry federal penalties. I don't want to infringe on her right to keep and bear arms, nor allow the feds to have that power, especially when the proscription against them doing this could not be more clear. Can you guarantee that Project Exile can NEVER be abused to do this? If so, I will surrender on this point and shut up. I know that NRA INTENDS that PE will only affect "those people", but you have failed to demonstrate how NRA will have any say in the matter should political power shift dramatically to the Democrats. And I totally reject your assertion that "my" fight (where the heck did you get THAT impression?) against Project Exile is either hopeless or useless, especially judging from the gun rights leaders who have signed the denouncement statement on keepandbeararms.com. https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=720 They represent some of the finest intellects and activists in the rkba community, and you cannot ignore them or their concerns if you hope to be either effective and innovative. Why on earth would you want to? Here's the problem, Neal- there ain't no light at the end of this tunnel. There will be more back-and-forth and more debating, and more time composing answers and rebuttals and counter-arguments and "gotcha's", but I don't see either one of us budging from our original stance. I suppose I could continue spending time each day on this doing point-counterpoint with you, but I don't see where it's gonna get us. It takes time away from too many other things that I have already prioritized. So I hope you understand that I need to back off of this- I think I was pretty up front about that from the start. I don't think anyone can accuse me of ducking anything, but I'd appreciate it if we could just agree to disagree on this and call a truce. Feel free to have the last word on this, but I just GOTTA drop this for now. Best, David p.s.- not "Dave"- call it a snotty affectation on my part, but I just never cared for it...:-) p.s.s.- the following from Merrill Gibson addresses "compelling state interest"- it is on topic, and this you'll like, Neal, it defends Ashcroft's position. Merrill makes some good points- I ain't totally on board with it, but that's probably just because I'm so stiff-necked and ornery. --- -----Original Message----- From: Merrill Gibson [mailto:merrill at infosuper.com] Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 4:26 PM To: West LA MC Subject: compelling state interest There has been quite a bit of concern expressed on the net lately by pro-freedom individuals concerning John Ashcroft's use of the phrase "compelling state interest" in a footnote to a letter he wrote to the NRA. In this letter which has been the subject of much nationwide commentary, Ashcroft expresses his strong belief (which was later described by his office as official Justice Department policy) that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. However in this letter, he added a footnote that said that he felt that laws which restrict firearm usage were acceptable as long as they were for a "compelling state interest." This phrase does have a rather Stalinist ring to it, but in fact it represents a good thing for us, not a bad thing, as I explain below. "Compelling state interest" is not a phrase that Ashcroft chose just because he felt the literal meaning of the three words best expressed his belief. "Compelling state interest" is a legal term with a rather precise and specialized legal meaning. In the US legal system, laws can be challenged based on the charge that they violate a right. There are various levels of scrutiny, or tests, that a law must pass in order to be ruled constitutional. The very highest level of scrutiny, the hardest test for a law to pass, is called "strict scrutiny," and this is the level that is associated with "compelling state interest." A law must be shown to have a "compelling state interest" before it passes the "strict scrutiny" test. I want to emphasize that none of our rights are protected at any higher level than this. This is the level that free speech, the right to avoid self incrimination, and other of our most sacred rights are protected at. It would be comforting to many people if there were such a thing as a right that was absolutely protected, so that no law could be passed that even appeared to violate it, but there is just no such thing in the US legal system. Note that it is this "compelling state interest" test that some of our enemies are most concerned about. Read Charles Schumer or Dianne Feinstein's comments on Ashcroft's letter and you will see that this part of the letter is what scares them the most. They know that "compelling state interest" is a very high bar, and that many existing laws, let alone the new laws they want, won't pass it. I don't mean to suggest that those who are worried about this phrase have NOTHING to be concerned about. When they describe it as a "loophole" they are still right, although it is the smallest loophole possible under the US legal system. If the Supreme Court should unequivocally declare the Second Amendment an individual right, and thus firmly establish "compelling state interest" as a test for all gun laws, our enemies will immediately then begin trying to prove that there is a "compelling state interest" in their schemes. They'll have a whole lot harder time of it than they do now, but the fight will go on. Merrill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal J. Lang" To: "David Codrea (E-mail)" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang > > Hi, Dave, > Again thanks for the prompt and thoughtful reply. > >In re what Ashcroft can do as head of the DoJ: same thing they did after > the 14th Am- protect rkba and other rights, albeit they did it there > selectively. I'd like to see the DoJ prosecute a gov. agency for denying a > citizen their 2A rights. You can bet THAT case would make it up to SCOTUS > post-haste. Don't think that's likely, due to "pragmatism" and > "compromise". I am heartened to see Metaja denied advancement- we shall > see how they continue with Emerson, and if they pursue the current DoJ > position... > Is the 14th Amendment even valid? I have seen some interesting evidence > that says maybe not. (See the Unconstitutional 14th Amendment at: > http://www.barefootsworld.net/14uncon.html - for some real interesting > stuff. Apparently Herr Reno wasn't the first with the "jack-booted > thugs"?) ("Jack-booted thugs?" Hmmm! Didn't Wayne LaPierre of the NRA > make the phrase a National Cause Celeb? Didn't George I burn his Life > Member NRA card because of Wayne's use of that expression to describe our > friends at ATF? Hmmm! Not bad for a HCI clone!) Anyway, assuming it was > correctly passed and ratified - now what? > According to the Supremes, Dave, apparently the rkba was not included in > the "privileges and immunities" of the 14th Amendment (See U.S. v. > Cruikshank at: > http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=92&invol=542 > - this 1875 (post 14th Amendment) case recognizes the rkba, but not for > blacks in Louisiana.) You being such big a Supremes fan (e.g. Marbury v. > Madison) this of must be the definitive answer for you. All General > Ashcroft can do is enforce the law, Dave. > The Congress must pass the laws; the Courts determine the constitutional > limits of the law; and the Executive, through the AG, sees that the laws > are "faithfully executed". In order to prosecute, Dave, General Ashcroft > needs a violation of the Federal Code. Please provide the Federal Code > cite, point out the errant governmental agency, and let's get the ball > rolling. I'll bet General Ashcroft will prosecute in a heart-beat if the > facts are there to indict. > As for Emerson, if the 5th Circuit finds for Dr. Emerson (upholds the > District Court decision) I hope DoJ pushes it to the Supremes, who must > take the case, IMMHO, as the Circuits will then be disjointed on > Lauternberg. > Worst scenario - the 5th Circuit overturns (I don't like the delay). > Next worst - the 5th Circuit upholds the District Court decision, and DoJ > decides to drop the case. If so, only those lucky folks in the 5th (Texas > and Louisiana) can stop worrying about Lautenberg, the rest of us still > will have it over our heads. > Best scenario - the 5th Circuit upholds the District Court decision, and > DoJ (General Ashcroft) decides to push the case to the Supremes. Of course > this a "crap shoot" but I believe Justice Thomas will be writing a 2nd > Amendment decision that will make Sister Brady find Jesus, IMMHO. This > would be the current DoJ position. If General Ashcroft pushes it, I hope > you cut him some slack because it will be almost impossible for the > Supremes to duck this one. > >In re Project Exile, sorry, but you did not really answer my questions. > Sorry, I must have missed it. Did you include an interrogatory sign? > >While you don't mind if the fedgov usurps powers not enumerated to them if > the cause is 'worthwhile', ie, taking a gangbanger off the streets, I am > concerned more with the gov assuming powers that are not theirs- as heinous > as the criminals are, they wreak nowhere near the human carnage and misery > that governments unbound do- how much further down this slope are YOU > willing to tolerate our descent? > Actually I do worry about Federalism, Dave, but you brought up Marbury v. > Madison, not me. Frankly I believe a good case could be made that once "the > People's right to keep and bear arms" was added to the Constitution, the > "power" was "enumerated" then and there. I believe this is exactly what > Madison was so afraid of in adding the "Bill of Rights" in the first place. > It opened areas to the Federal government he never intended they would be > allowed. The originally limited Federal government now obviously has > something to say about "the People's speech, religion, homes, papers, guns, > presses, assemblies, etc., etc., etc." - there are Articles now addressing > each of these areas. Just look at the Federal Court cases now addressing > these areas. You (the big Marbury v. Madison fan) can't honestly say the > Feds aren't SUPREME. Be careful what you wish for, my friend, it might be > granted. We may not be able to put the genie back in the bottle, my > friend. > Personally, like Madison, I believe the slope started with the "Bill of > Rights", was greased by Marbury v. Madison and many of Justice Marshall's > decisions, and really got into full descent with the Civil War and the 14th > Amendment, followed closely by Sherman Anti-trust, et. al. By the time the > "New Deal" arrived, we already had an income tax, Dave, and we were pretty > well "bagged and tagged". > Actually your idea of "Guns for Felons" will not make the top 10 of Pro-gun > PR programs, IMMHO, my friend. If the Constitution says "the People's > right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", there is also a > corollary - that there just might be some (prisoners in Federal prisons, > for example) that this could logically be exclude. So the Federal > government makes laws to enforce same. Once this begins, as it did in > 1793, then obviously felons might also be logically excluded. That is, of > course, unless you wish to promote a system "responsibility-free rights". > A convicted felon, Dave, displays a certain lack of responsibility, IMMHO. > I think that there just might be some "compelling state interest" in > disarming such an irresponsible person. Of course, "due process" should be > the arbiter in establishing felonious behavior. Also, I have no problem > with a convicted felon having his rights restored. Again, only following > appropriate "due process". > A "compelling state interest" insists that if one is to have the "right to > keep and bear arms", they should exercise same responsibly. I think you > will agree that irresponsible firearms use could prove dangerous to my, or > your, or anyone's "Natural Right to Life". Walla! The States has > "compelling interest". > >And, again, yeah, I know NRA says they are only to use such laws against > really really REALLY bad guys- but my point is, and you have not refuted > it, they CAN be applied to anyone. > I believe Emerson shows that there are limits. Can the government > (Federal, State, and Local) disarm citizens? Yes, Dave, it happens every > day, with or without "Project Exile". However, you seem to be concerned > more about felons rights than you are about my wife rights. She has a > "Natural Right to Life". > The last time my house was "invaded" my wife arrived while the perp was > still in the house. He was armed. Fortunately he bugged out the back door > from our bed-room, while my wife was putting groceries away in the kitchen. > Apparently all my NRA paraphernalia laying around the house induced him to > "beat feet". As much as you think this crack addict deserves the rkba, > Dave, I can't see it. The vast majority of "the People", including most > gun-owners, feel the same way, I believe. Your fight against "Project > Exile" is really hopeless and totally counter-productive, IMMHO. Worst of > all it doesn't move the ball one inch forward. > >To think that a government, already operating extra-Constitutionally, is > going to be ever bound by the niceties of interpreting the application of > their "illegal" laws according to how the NRA wants them to do it, does not > compute with me. I think your good intentions may just be paving the road > to Hell here- probably not under Bush, but what about under Pres. Hillary? > Sorry, no matter the motive, I just don't think the ends justify the means > here. > If you continue to champion "gun rights for felons", Dave, we will probably > see President Hillary. Jumping up and down and shouting the government > acts unconstitutionally is really not making your case. To my knowledge > "Project Exile" is a designed to take "armed felons" off the street. > Personally I like the idea. If you have proof that "Project Exile" is > really taking "honest citizens" off the street, by all means, please, > present your evidence. I will then join you in "jumping up and down and > shouting". But without such evidence, you have "No Sale" here, my friend. > Sorry! > >I don't recall advocating political firing squads, but as long as you > bring it up, let me add one qualifier- I hope you agree with me that their > jury of peers should be fully informed triers of law as well as fact? > Just my, obviously poor, attempt a satire. "Circular Firing Squads!" Get > the picture? Everyone gets in a circle and shoots at the bad guys in the > middle, but instead, causes many "friendly fire casualties". I was > alluding to how we can easily destroy our friends by such tactics. > Actually, Dave, equating the NRA to HCI is such a tactic, IMMHO. > I, too, agree in "jury nullification" of bad laws, Dave, as did our > founders. > >That's it for me on this. "Uncle!" > Shame, Dave, just when I saw the "light at the end of the tunnel". > Keep the Faith, > > Neal > > > > > > Neal J. Lang (Signed) > E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net > > > From alan at clueserver.org Tue Jul 31 00:00:18 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:00:18 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> References: <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> Message-ID: <20010731091457.0F4486E42@clueserver.org> On Friday 27 July 2001 11:13, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > In message <20010727015656.A22910 at cluebot.com>, Declan McCullagh writes: > >One of those -- and you can thank groups like ACM for this, if my > >legislative memory is correct -- explicitly permits encryption > >research. You can argue fairly persuasively that it's not broad > >enough, and certainly 2600 found in the DeCSS case that the judge > >wasn't convinced by their arguments, but at least it's a shield of > >sorts. See below. > > It's certainly not broad enough -- it protects "encryption" research, > and the definition of "encryption" in the law is meant to cover just > that, not "cryptography". And the good-faith effort to get permission > is really an invitation to harrassment, since you don't have to > actually get permission, merely seek it. Even worse is if the "encryption" is in bad faith to begin with. (i.e. They know it is broken and/or worthless, but don't want the general public to find out.) Imagine some of the usual snake-oil cryto-schemes applied to copyrighted material. Then imagine that they use the same bunch of lawyers as the Scientologists. This could work out to be a great money-making scam! Invent a bogus copy protection scheme. Con a bunch of suckers to buy it for their products. Sue anyone who breaks it or tries to expose you as a fraud for damages. I mean if they can go after people for breaking things that use ROT-13 (eBooks) and 22 bit encryption (or whatever CSS actually uses), then you can go after just about anyone who threatens your business model. I guess we *do* have the best government money can buy. We just were not the ones writing the checks... --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From drevil at sidereal.kz Mon Jul 30 17:12:04 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 31 Jul 2001 00:12:04 -0000 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas In-Reply-To: <3B65E737.E621DE0B@lsil.com> (mmotyka@lsil.com) References: <3B65C247.127FFF39@lsil.com> <004701c11935$c950c780$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65C7DB.883E512A@lsil.com> <007301c11940$47b26700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <3B65E737.E621DE0B@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20010731001204.5377.qmail@sidereal.kz> > Not a particularly useful answer and not necessarily justifiable on the > part of the court. I think eventually a better answer would have to be > produced, one that justified the censorship. We're back to what > originally struck me as odd, and wrong, about this item. Whoever has her > stuff should copy it and move the copy offshore because something is > very wrong on the part of the court. Just because they're wrong and you're right doesn't benefit you at all when you are in jail for contempt, losing your ass-cherry. The belief to the contrary is what M. Unicorn would call a "classic Cypherpunk fallacy". M. Unicorn is absolutely right here. Trusts are a great thing which, in this case, allow you to completely achieve what you're trying to achieve, while complying all of the court's instructions. Use them! Why waste time being an outlaw? From Director at KeepAndBearArms.com Tue Jul 31 00:19:14 2001 From: Director at KeepAndBearArms.com (Angel Shamaya) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:19:14 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? In-Reply-To: <011301c1198b$10dc34e0$d9200518@rdondo1.ca.home.com> Message-ID: <3B65F982.12568.25E1804@localhost> From: "David and Maureen Codrea" Date sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:35:55 -0700 > And I totally reject your assertion that "my" fight (where the heck > did you get THAT impression?) against Project Exile is either hopeless > or useless, especially judging from the gun rights leaders who have > signed the denouncement statement on keepandbeararms.com. > https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=720 > They represent some of the finest intellects and activists in the rkba > community, and you cannot ignore them or their concerns if you hope to > be either effective and innovative. Why on earth would you want to? David, use this link when sharing the Project Exile Condemnation Coalition's statement: http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/exile2 ...so it doesn't wrap to a second line. I am intrigued by the fact that NRA's Board of Coalition Builders has yet to respond to that statement; considering how many longtime dedicated leaders and proven patriots have signed it, one would think they'd have at least said "something." I guess the fact that gun rights groups whose memberships collectively represent a large segment of their own membership aren't important. Kinda reminds me of those who say we're wrong but have never taken direct exerpts and challenged them in a ready-for-publication article so they can be converted by KABAnators in private emails and then come back to us with gratitude for being patient with them while they were busy being right. By the way, Lao Tzu said, "Brevity is the root of all grace." Shamaya Longwind From albeca at eresmas.com Mon Jul 30 15:26:56 2001 From: albeca at eresmas.com (_^[KAPO]^_) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:26:56 +0200 Subject: Phreaking Message-ID: Hola ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- En 1er lugar me voy a presentar, soy _^[KAPO]^_ un newbie de irc.terra.es, fundador del canal #eurohack y webmaster de www.eurohack.cjb.net, soy principiante en esto del hacking, cracking, phreaking... me chifla todo este mundo, pero en especial el del hacking y el de phreaking, pero tengo un problema, en Internet hay miles de textos de hacking, mejores y peores, pero de phreaking no he visto muchos, he visto uno tuyo y otro del wardialer que ahora no recuerdo su autor, te escribo para ver si me haces el favor de facilitarme url's de p獺ginas en las que pueda encontrar textos buenos sobre phreaking, si me hiciese ese favor se lo agradecer穩a. Tambi矇n le escribo para hacerle una proposici籀n, estoy fundando un portal con un amigo que tambi矇n es newbie, el portal trata principalmente de Hacking, Cracking, Phreaking, Sistemas Operativos, Seguridad Inform獺tica, etc y luego tiene temas secundarios como musica, rol... en estos temas secundarios se aceptan todo tipo de temas. Tengo un problema de personal, al igual que me pasa con los textos de phreaking me pasa con la gente que se encargue de la secci籀n phreaking de mi portal, hasta ahora no he encontrado a nadie que controle realmente de phreaking y leyendo tu textos del caller ID pues me pregunto si le gustar穩a participar en esta secci籀n de mi portal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Espero su respuesta, saludos. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- -- By _^[KAPO]^_ -- albeca at eresmas.com kapotnt at hotmail.com Puedes encontrarme en el irc.terra.es canal #EuroHack al cual puedes acceder desde el acceso a chat que tengo instalado en mi p獺gina www.eurohack.cjb.net (la p獺gina del canal) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2591 bytes Desc: not available URL: From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 31 00:31:52 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:31:52 -0700 Subject: Lasers and ICBMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:39 PM -0700 7/26/01, Alan Olsen wrote: >On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote: >> On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >> > A lot of the calculations being sketched out here, of watts/cm^2, >> > dwell times, gold coatings, etc. are slightly off-base. We've known >> > for 20+ years that the kill method is to use a short pulse to "push" >> > (not from the photons' momentum) in the thin wall of an ICBM's fuel >> Explosive ablation sounds like giant pulses, and chemicals lasers (the >> only ones known to provide lasing output in the ballpark) don't do these >> very well. So either you have to fire synchonously from many platforms, or >> have a veritable Death Star out there in LEO. Several of them, in fact, to >> maintain an umbrella at all times. >Why is this reminding me of some of the activities of local Law >enforcement? >All of this talk of multiple shots fired, but no mention of what happens >to those that miss or continue on past the target after hitting it. >I expect that if they ever do test this thing in low earth orbit or any >other space bound platform, we may see a few "accidents" that were not >counted on. >"Oops! Accidently hit that communications satilite. Sorry!" >"Oops! Accidently hit that densely populated urban area!" >Oops! "Accidently" hit Tim May's house!" Big sky, little bullet. Meaning those will happen, but won't be accidents. From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 00:39:25 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:39:25 -0700 Subject: Lasers and ICBMs References: Message-ID: <006301c11993$ec9be090$d2972040@thinkpad574> > >Oops! "Accidentally" hit Tim May's house!" Probably not an accident. From movwater at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 30 21:55:54 2001 From: movwater at bellsouth.net (Neal J. Lang) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:55:54 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <01C1195B.8DD8D280.movwater@bellsouth.net> E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang Hi, Dave, Again thanks for the prompt and thoughtful reply. >In re what Ashcroft can do as head of the DoJ: same thing they did after the 14th Am- protect rkba and other rights, albeit they did it there selectively. I'd like to see the DoJ prosecute a gov. agency for denying a citizen their 2A rights. You can bet THAT case would make it up to SCOTUS post-haste. Don't think that's likely, due to "pragmatism" and "compromise". I am heartened to see Metaja denied advancement- we shall see how they continue with Emerson, and if they pursue the current DoJ position... Is the 14th Amendment even valid? I have seen some interesting evidence that says maybe not. (See the Unconstitutional 14th Amendment at: http://www.barefootsworld.net/14uncon.html - for some real interesting stuff. Apparently Herr Reno wasn't the first with the "jack-booted thugs"?) ("Jack-booted thugs?" Hmmm! Didn't Wayne LaPierre of the NRA make the phrase a National Cause Celeb? Didn't George I burn his Life Member NRA card because of Wayne's use of that expression to describe our friends at ATF? Hmmm! Not bad for a HCI clone!) Anyway, assuming it was correctly passed and ratified - now what? According to the Supremes, Dave, apparently the rkba was not included in the "privileges and immunities" of the 14th Amendment (See U.S. v. Cruikshank at: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=92&invol=542 - this 1875 (post 14th Amendment) case recognizes the rkba, but not for blacks in Louisiana.) You being such big a Supremes fan (e.g. Marbury v. Madison) this of must be the definitive answer for you. All General Ashcroft can do is enforce the law, Dave. The Congress must pass the laws; the Courts determine the constitutional limits of the law; and the Executive, through the AG, sees that the laws are "faithfully executed". In order to prosecute, Dave, General Ashcroft needs a violation of the Federal Code. Please provide the Federal Code cite, point out the errant governmental agency, and let's get the ball rolling. I'll bet General Ashcroft will prosecute in a heart-beat if the facts are there to indict. As for Emerson, if the 5th Circuit finds for Dr. Emerson (upholds the District Court decision) I hope DoJ pushes it to the Supremes, who must take the case, IMMHO, as the Circuits will then be disjointed on Lauternberg. Worst scenario - the 5th Circuit overturns (I don't like the delay). Next worst - the 5th Circuit upholds the District Court decision, and DoJ decides to drop the case. If so, only those lucky folks in the 5th (Texas and Louisiana) can stop worrying about Lautenberg, the rest of us still will have it over our heads. Best scenario - the 5th Circuit upholds the District Court decision, and DoJ (General Ashcroft) decides to push the case to the Supremes. Of course this a "crap shoot" but I believe Justice Thomas will be writing a 2nd Amendment decision that will make Sister Brady find Jesus, IMMHO. This would be the current DoJ position. If General Ashcroft pushes it, I hope you cut him some slack because it will be almost impossible for the Supremes to duck this one. >In re Project Exile, sorry, but you did not really answer my questions. Sorry, I must have missed it. Did you include an interrogatory sign? >While you don't mind if the fedgov usurps powers not enumerated to them if the cause is 'worthwhile', ie, taking a gangbanger off the streets, I am concerned more with the gov assuming powers that are not theirs- as heinous as the criminals are, they wreak nowhere near the human carnage and misery that governments unbound do- how much further down this slope are YOU willing to tolerate our descent? Actually I do worry about Federalism, Dave, but you brought up Marbury v. Madison, not me. Frankly I believe a good case could be made that once "the People's right to keep and bear arms" was added to the Constitution, the "power" was "enumerated" then and there. I believe this is exactly what Madison was so afraid of in adding the "Bill of Rights" in the first place. It opened areas to the Federal government he never intended they would be allowed. The originally limited Federal government now obviously has something to say about "the People's speech, religion, homes, papers, guns, presses, assemblies, etc., etc., etc." - there are Articles now addressing each of these areas. Just look at the Federal Court cases now addressing these areas. You (the big Marbury v. Madison fan) can't honestly say the Feds aren't SUPREME. Be careful what you wish for, my friend, it might be granted. We may not be able to put the genie back in the bottle, my friend. Personally, like Madison, I believe the slope started with the "Bill of Rights", was greased by Marbury v. Madison and many of Justice Marshall's decisions, and really got into full descent with the Civil War and the 14th Amendment, followed closely by Sherman Anti-trust, et. al. By the time the "New Deal" arrived, we already had an income tax, Dave, and we were pretty well "bagged and tagged". Actually your idea of "Guns for Felons" will not make the top 10 of Pro-gun PR programs, IMMHO, my friend. If the Constitution says "the People's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", there is also a corollary - that there just might be some (prisoners in Federal prisons, for example) that this could logically be exclude. So the Federal government makes laws to enforce same. Once this begins, as it did in 1793, then obviously felons might also be logically excluded. That is, of course, unless you wish to promote a system "responsibility-free rights". A convicted felon, Dave, displays a certain lack of responsibility, IMMHO. I think that there just might be some "compelling state interest" in disarming such an irresponsible person. Of course, "due process" should be the arbiter in establishing felonious behavior. Also, I have no problem with a convicted felon having his rights restored. Again, only following appropriate "due process". A "compelling state interest" insists that if one is to have the "right to keep and bear arms", they should exercise same responsibly. I think you will agree that irresponsible firearms use could prove dangerous to my, or your, or anyone's "Natural Right to Life". Walla! The States has "compelling interest". >And, again, yeah, I know NRA says they are only to use such laws against really really REALLY bad guys- but my point is, and you have not refuted it, they CAN be applied to anyone. I believe Emerson shows that there are limits. Can the government (Federal, State, and Local) disarm citizens? Yes, Dave, it happens every day, with or without "Project Exile". However, you seem to be concerned more about felons rights than you are about my wife rights. She has a "Natural Right to Life". The last time my house was "invaded" my wife arrived while the perp was still in the house. He was armed. Fortunately he bugged out the back door from our bed-room, while my wife was putting groceries away in the kitchen. Apparently all my NRA paraphernalia laying around the house induced him to "beat feet". As much as you think this crack addict deserves the rkba, Dave, I can't see it. The vast majority of "the People", including most gun-owners, feel the same way, I believe. Your fight against "Project Exile" is really hopeless and totally counter-productive, IMMHO. Worst of all it doesn't move the ball one inch forward. >To think that a government, already operating extra-Constitutionally, is going to be ever bound by the niceties of interpreting the application of their "illegal" laws according to how the NRA wants them to do it, does not compute with me. I think your good intentions may just be paving the road to Hell here- probably not under Bush, but what about under Pres. Hillary? Sorry, no matter the motive, I just don't think the ends justify the means here. If you continue to champion "gun rights for felons", Dave, we will probably see President Hillary. Jumping up and down and shouting the government acts unconstitutionally is really not making your case. To my knowledge "Project Exile" is a designed to take "armed felons" off the street. Personally I like the idea. If you have proof that "Project Exile" is really taking "honest citizens" off the street, by all means, please, present your evidence. I will then join you in "jumping up and down and shouting". But without such evidence, you have "No Sale" here, my friend. Sorry! >I don't recall advocating political firing squads, but as long as you bring it up, let me add one qualifier- I hope you agree with me that their jury of peers should be fully informed triers of law as well as fact? Just my, obviously poor, attempt a satire. "Circular Firing Squads!" Get the picture? Everyone gets in a circle and shoots at the bad guys in the middle, but instead, causes many "friendly fire casualties". I was alluding to how we can easily destroy our friends by such tactics. Actually, Dave, equating the NRA to HCI is such a tactic, IMMHO. I, too, agree in "jury nullification" of bad laws, Dave, as did our founders. >That's it for me on this. "Uncle!" Shame, Dave, just when I saw the "light at the end of the tunnel". Keep the Faith, Neal Neal J. Lang (Signed) E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net From declan at well.com Mon Jul 30 22:09:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:09:07 -0400 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <3B659C69.3B344CF6@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:42:01AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010731010907.B3632@cluebot.com> On Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:42:01AM -0700, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > If a DeCSS source+bin zip had been anonymously mailed to 40 million > people the terrain for the legal fight might have been different. I That's pretty much what happened. Your hypothetical wouldn't have changed the legal fight. -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Jul 31 02:13:40 2001 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 02:13:40 -0700 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010731091457.0F4486E42@clueserver.org> References: <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010731020738.02d8f2e0@idiom.com> At 12:00 AM 07/31/2001 -0700, Alan wrote: >I guess we *do* have the best government money can buy. We just were not the >ones writing the checks... Naahhh... You ought to be able to buy a much better government than that. :-) That actually is part of the problem - governments writing laws about things they don't really understand. It's most obvious in high-tech areas, but even something as potentially simple as the tax code confuses them, because there are thousands of pages of special cases designed mostly independently to attempt to achieve various social goals or help various special interests, too many for anyone to keep track of when trying to band-aid the code to achieve the next social or political objective. And the special interests who are successful in getting them to do things generally aren't much more competent about it, and the unexpected consequences may or may not help them. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 31 02:57:41 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 02:57:41 -0700 Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft make his move In-Reply-To: <20010730145100.58844.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010730145100.58844.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:51 AM -0700 7/30/01, Richard Stevens wrote: >--- Jonathan Wienke wrote: >> >> I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July >> issue also has >> an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not >> quote the rather >> lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible >> image of BOTH >> pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of >> the footnote. This >> is hardly the action of an organization bent on >> distorting Ashcroft's >> view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the >> part of the >> America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an >> organization-wide >> conspiracy. >> >> Jonathan Wienke >> > >Mr. Wienke, > >I paged through the entire July 2001 issue of American >Rifleman, and maybe I'm just blind as the proverbial >bat, but I don't see the article to which you refer >that quotes the entire Ashcroft letter. On what page >is it? > >The July 2001 issue of First Freedom is the one >featuring the Ashcroft letter -- that I have received >thus far. > >On the point you raise: maybe it was merely a bad >editorial decision for the one magazine. Fine, and we >can forgive that. But, ask this question: in what >kind of workplace environment could this kind of >editing decision be made? I used to work for a mid-sized and rather famous magazine as technical support for the designers and editors, as well I was (by training and work experience) a graphic designer. To answer your question, the kind of workplace where something like this can happen is, for a magazine, a very "normal" kind of work place. Stories crop up late, or changes get made at the last minute. You're a bit under length so you scramble for filler, or you're a bit over, so you cut. Something happens to the server, so you're waiting to restore from backup and hope you haven't lost too much. Or one of a hundred different things. >Remember that more than one editor had to approve the >final copy. This is not just a typo. More than one >person had to consciously decide to omit relevant >material without telling the reader. No, only one person had to make the *conscious* decision. All the other people simply had to not notice the lack. >I have to wonder if other sorts of "editing decisions" >that massage the facts and distort the truth are being >made ... and we readers don't know it. If you read First Freedom (and my copy is currently on the tank awaiting further perusal) with a critical eye, and have an understanding of the underlying issues and numbers, it's often quite obvious that that magazine, while it may tell the truth, it does not tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But it's not supposed to. It's a propaganda rag for the NRA. All we should expect is that they don't deliberately lie. >Maybe it was entirely innocent. Then NRA should >promptly apologize, correct it and publish the full >text in the following issue. Let's see if they do. From petro at bounty.org Tue Jul 31 03:38:59 2001 From: petro at bounty.org (Petro) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:38:59 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime In-Reply-To: <001001c1191d$2fb21330$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> References: <001001c1191d$2fb21330$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: At 10:29 AM -0700 7/30/01, Black Unicorn wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >> At 7:20 AM -0500 7/26/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: >> >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: >> >You are confusing "civilians" and LEOs. Only civilians are held to the >> >personal knowledge standard. Leos are held to profoundly lower probablity >> >models. >> >> In order to arrest someone they have to have some sort of evidence that not >only was a crime committed, but that the person they arrested has some >reasonable probability of actually having committed that crime. >Uh, no. >If I were a duly appointed law enforcement official I could arrest you for the >kind of shoes you were wearing. You'll have recourse eventually, but it will >be after a 24 hour (or so) stay in the pokey and posting bail and hiring an >attorney, and.... As a lawyer (and I strongly suspect based on your writing here over the years that you're not this kind of lawyer) if someone came to you wanting to sue the NYPD over whatever the legalese is for "false imprisonment" and had documents to prove that they'd been arrested for wearing purple oxfords on blue flue tuesday, would you buy a new BMW or a Mercedes? >> Maybe "know" is a little strong, "suspect" is probably a better way of >putting it. > >You're reaching for the criteria by which the legitimacy of the arrest will be >judged ex post. The terms you are grappling to find are "reasonable >suspicion" and "probable cause." The point you are missing is that typically >the only downside for the officer in making an "illegal arrest" is that the >case will get tossed. Big deal. I was trying to stay away from "terms of art" where possible, since while I know what the english words "reasonable suspicion" mean, I know they are also used in a lot of cop and lawyer shows, as well as by cops and lawyers, therefore they are overloaded terms and not always in scope. >I suggest you attend 3 years of law school or otherwise educate yourself in >the matter before presenting yourself as an authority on the issue and >blathering off for paragraphs on end about nothing in particular. Sheesh, at >least invest in a copy of black's law dictionary or something. It's common >respect for the rest of the list members. I am seriously thinking about Law School, and several times during this "conversation" I have made it clear that (1) I am not a lawyer. (2) I am not speaking from a position of educated authority. I am speaking from *my* reading of the Constitution and discussions with lawyers and Cops, as well as other stuff I've read and thought about over the years. I've made it evident that I do not believe this is the way things *are*, but rather what *I* believe would work better. >> >> Other than said 4th amendment issues, street cops *rarely* get >> >> involved in constitutional issues. >> > >> >If you honestly believe this, then someone needs to beat the shit out of >> >you with a clueclub. By definition, LEOs are [daily] involved in all >> >issues, from 1-ad to no-ad... >> >> Nonsense. In a LARGE percentage of the stuff a police officer deals with, >there are no constitutional issues (other than the 4th). Robbery, murder, >drunk driving, and the vast majority of traffic violations there aren't many >constitutional issues involved in the laws the enforce, there may be some >issues in *how* they enforce them (4th, 5th, and 6th) but little on what they >enforce. > >There are constitutional issues in every interaction with police and citizens. >The question is if they are raised or significant enough to be regarded in the >judicial system. Probable cause to make an arrest is but one of the issues >that is triggered on every arrest or other police action. In any interaction between the long arm of the law and the citizenry, there is the how, and the why. You are talking about how the police interact with the citizenry, which is mostly 4th (search, seizure, cause for warrants etc), 5th (due process, double jeopardy), 6th (speedy public trial etc). These all come into effect (usually) after there is suspicion that a crime has been committed (absent "fishing expeditions"). We were talking about the why of the interaction, whether LEOs should decide for themselves what laws were constitutional and should be enforced. >> Rarely will you find a street cop, on his on initiative, making arrests in >questionable areas (1st and 2nd). > >To you the only "questionable" areas are the 1st and 2nd amendments? >Interesting. Within the constraints of the discussion, yes. There are constitutional questions in law enforcement about the 4th, 5th, and 6th, but these are procedural issues, and procedural laws. I see many laws that are questionable under the 1st and 2nd (via the 14th) but I see few laws that can be violated outside the court system that are questionable under the 4th, 5th, and 6th. To my limited knowledge there has been very few cases (I've heard of one, but I admit to not having done the research) dealing with the 3rd, the 7th deals with Civil courts (although the 20 dollar limit is probably a little low these days), the 8th is only in effect after you've been arrested. The 9th and 10th do not enumerate specific rights, only state that there are rights not listed, and that those belong to the states and the people. State constitutions are another matter, and I'll admit that until I wrote this sentence I hadn't even been thinking about them. So yeah, in the context of whether LEOs should decide for themselves which laws are constitutional, and hence enforceable, it's really only the 1st and 2nd that cause most of the questions. >> Here's how it works (and there is a case going on right now about this). The >government says "you have to have a tax stamp to own ". Then doesn't >provide you any mechanism to actually *get* that stamp. > >Chicago does this. It requires registration for all handguns. No >registrations have been issued since the early 70s or so. It's been >challenged over and over. It stands. And will. Really? You mean *that's* why I couldn't find a gun store in Chicago the whole 7 years I lived there? And it was the early 80s during the Byrne administration that new firearms registrations were halted (although rumor had it that if you knew the right people, or had a good enough reason you could still get one registered. Of course, that is normal for Chicago). Registration started in 1968, the law stoping registration apparently came into effect in 1982. http://user.mc.net/~chevelle/handgunbans.htm >The rest of this drivel deleted. (Is Detweiller back or what? If so, he's >violating his consent decree). From FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com Tue Jul 31 01:51:44 2001 From: FLN-Community at FreeLinksNetwork.com (Your Membership Newsletter) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 04:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your Membership Exchange, #439 Message-ID: <20010731085144.0F673249B4@rovdb001.roving.com> Your Membership Exchange, Issue #439 (July 31, 2001) ______________________________________________________ Your Membership Daily Exchange >>>>>>>>>>> Issue #439 <> 07-31-01 <<<<<<<<<<<< Your place to exchange ideas, ask questions, swap links, and share your skills! ______________________________________________________ Removal/Unsubscribe instructions are included at the bottom for members who do not wish to receive additional issues of this publication. ______________________________________________________ You are a member in at least one of these programs - You should be in them all! http://www.BannersGoMLM.com http://www.ProfitBanners.com http://www.CashPromotions.com http://www.MySiteInc.com http://www.TimsHomeTownStories.com http://www.FreeLinksNetwork.com http://www.MyShoppingPlace.com http://www.BannerCo-op.com http://www.PutPEEL.com http://www.PutPEEL.net http://www.SELLinternetACCESS.com http://www.Be-Your-Own-ISP.com http://www.SeventhPower.com ______________________________________________________ Today's Special Announcement: ANNOUNCING NEW TRAINING PROGRAM FOR NETWORK MARKETERS! Discover the cash generating secrets a 26-year old used to build a downline of over 25,347 people and more than $15 million in sales! This 100% generic MLM training program goes deep behind the scenes to give you the step-by-step blueprint to solving your most pressing problems - retention, attrition, prospecting, presentations, cashflow crunches and more! With over 200 pages of secrets, strategies, techniques, ads scripts, forms and over 4 hours of instructional audio, you will have the unfair advantage over your competition! Create the MLM income you deserve. Never struggle with small checks again. CLICK HERE--> http://www.ilovemlm.com/cgi-bin/at.cgi?a=151448 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ >> Q & A QUESTIONS: - What can I do about my computer freezing? ANSWERS: - Can images be coded so they cannot be downloaded? M. Cote: No, you can download anything on the net >> MEMBER SHOWCASES >> MEMBER *REVIEWS* - Sites to Review: #139, #140 & #141! - Three new sites to review! - Site #138 Reviewed! ______________________________________________________ >>>>>> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS <<<<<< Submit your questions & answers to MyInput at AEOpublishing.com QUESTIONS: From NealL at mwicorp.com Tue Jul 31 05:12:58 2001 From: NealL at mwicorp.com (Neal Lang) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:12:58 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: By the way, Lao Tzu said, "Brevity is the root of all grace." Shamaya Longwind Hi, Angel, Sure, Angel, but look where that got the Chinese people today. To paraphrase a great American: "Brevity it the face of tyranny is no virtue. Verbosity in defence of freedom is no vice." Keep the Faith, Neal From fugar_3 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 31 08:23:40 2001 From: fugar_3 at yahoo.com (fidelis aloye) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BUSINESS PROPOSAL Message-ID: <20010731152340.19335.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> > FROM: MR.FIDELIS ALOYE. > TEL: 234 1 759 1549; FAX: 234 1 759 0379. > E-MAIL:aloyede at yahoo.com > > > BUSINESS PROPOSAL > > ATTN: PRESIDENT/CEO, > > My name is FIDELIS ALOYE, a member of the > Presidential > Task Force on Oil Spillage Clean-up. Early last year > there was a major oil spillage in the Niger Delta > Region of Nigeria which rendered over 70% of the > communities homeless.The contract was handled by a > foreign firm but because of the huge monetary profit > we envisaged we decided to over-invoice the contract > sum. > > Now the contract has been completed and the original > contractor has since been paid,but the contract > balance of US$38 million,which resulted from the > over > invoiced contract sum that has been left in a > suspense > account with the CENTRAL BANK of NIGERIA,is what me > and my partners are planning to take out of the > country for ourselves.The problem is as government > officials,we are not suppose to own fat bank > accounts,talk less of having foreign ones. > > To this end, we are soliciting your assistance as a > foreign partner who can assist us and receive this > amount into your account. We are ready to share this > money with you on the basis of participation. We > also > have plans to invest part of this money in any > viable > business in your country under your care,as we are > nearing our retirement age. > > In any case, I received a reference of > you/organization from the Nigeria Chambers of > Commerce > and Industry 嚙瘤oreign Trade Division嚙 as a reputable > organ that can assist us on this transaction. Please > if you accept my proposal do not hesitate to send me > a > fax on 234 1 759 0379 or send me an e-mail on: > aloyede at yahoo.com , so that I can provide you with > the basic procedures for the release of the fund. > > It does not matter whether you or your company does > contract project of the nature described here, the > assumption is that you won a major contract and > subcontracted it to another company, more often than > not, big trading companies or individuals of > unrelated > field win major contracts here in Nigeria and > subcontracts same to more specialized firms for > execution. > > BENEFIT: For providing the account where we shall > remit this money, you will be entitled to 25% of the > entire funds, 70% will be for me and my > partners,while > 5% has been set aside to cover any expenses that may > be incurred by both parties during this transaction, > both local and international. > > Please I enjoin you to handle this transaction with > utmost degree of maturity and confidentiality > because > I am still in active government service with the > 嚙瞇IGERIAN NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION嚙. If I > receive your response on time, this whole > transaction > could be accomplished within the shortest possible > time based on your interest and determination,since > the money is already in transit. > > Please, try to call me up to confirm the receipt of > your fax or e-mail.The lines may be busy,but keep > trying till you get through. > > Yours faithfully, > > MR. FIDELIS ALOYE (MNIM). > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From fugar_3 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 31 08:24:29 2001 From: fugar_3 at yahoo.com (fidelis aloye) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BUSINESS PROPOSAL Message-ID: <20010731152429.19500.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> > FROM: MR.FIDELIS ALOYE. > TEL: 234 1 759 1549; FAX: 234 1 759 0379. > E-MAIL:aloyede at yahoo.com > > > BUSINESS PROPOSAL > > ATTN: PRESIDENT/CEO, > > My name is FIDELIS ALOYE, a member of the > Presidential > Task Force on Oil Spillage Clean-up. Early last year > there was a major oil spillage in the Niger Delta > Region of Nigeria which rendered over 70% of the > communities homeless.The contract was handled by a > foreign firm but because of the huge monetary profit > we envisaged we decided to over-invoice the contract > sum. > > Now the contract has been completed and the original > contractor has since been paid,but the contract > balance of US$38 million,which resulted from the > over > invoiced contract sum that has been left in a > suspense > account with the CENTRAL BANK of NIGERIA,is what me > and my partners are planning to take out of the > country for ourselves.The problem is as government > officials,we are not suppose to own fat bank > accounts,talk less of having foreign ones. > > To this end, we are soliciting your assistance as a > foreign partner who can assist us and receive this > amount into your account. We are ready to share this > money with you on the basis of participation. We > also > have plans to invest part of this money in any > viable > business in your country under your care,as we are > nearing our retirement age. > > In any case, I received a reference of > you/organization from the Nigeria Chambers of > Commerce > and Industry 嚙瘤oreign Trade Division嚙 as a reputable > organ that can assist us on this transaction. Please > if you accept my proposal do not hesitate to send me > a > fax on 234 1 759 0379 or send me an e-mail on: > aloyede at yahoo.com , so that I can provide you with > the basic procedures for the release of the fund. > > It does not matter whether you or your company does > contract project of the nature described here, the > assumption is that you won a major contract and > subcontracted it to another company, more often than > not, big trading companies or individuals of > unrelated > field win major contracts here in Nigeria and > subcontracts same to more specialized firms for > execution. > > BENEFIT: For providing the account where we shall > remit this money, you will be entitled to 25% of the > entire funds, 70% will be for me and my > partners,while > 5% has been set aside to cover any expenses that may > be incurred by both parties during this transaction, > both local and international. > > Please I enjoin you to handle this transaction with > utmost degree of maturity and confidentiality > because > I am still in active government service with the > 嚙瞇IGERIAN NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION嚙. If I > receive your response on time, this whole > transaction > could be accomplished within the shortest possible > time based on your interest and determination,since > the money is already in transit. > > Please, try to call me up to confirm the receipt of > your fax or e-mail.The lines may be busy,but keep > trying till you get through. > > Yours faithfully, > > MR. FIDELIS ALOYE (MNIM). > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From fugar_3 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 31 08:26:19 2001 From: fugar_3 at yahoo.com (fidelis aloye) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BUSINESS PROPOSAL Message-ID: <20010731152619.89238.qmail@web14708.mail.yahoo.com> > FROM: MR.FIDELIS ALOYE. > TEL: 234 1 759 1549; FAX: 234 1 759 0379. > E-MAIL:aloyede at yahoo.com > > > BUSINESS PROPOSAL > > ATTN: PRESIDENT/CEO, > > My name is FIDELIS ALOYE, a member of the > Presidential > Task Force on Oil Spillage Clean-up. Early last year > there was a major oil spillage in the Niger Delta > Region of Nigeria which rendered over 70% of the > communities homeless.The contract was handled by a > foreign firm but because of the huge monetary profit > we envisaged we decided to over-invoice the contract > sum. > > Now the contract has been completed and the original > contractor has since been paid,but the contract > balance of US$38 million,which resulted from the > over > invoiced contract sum that has been left in a > suspense > account with the CENTRAL BANK of NIGERIA,is what me > and my partners are planning to take out of the > country for ourselves.The problem is as government > officials,we are not suppose to own fat bank > accounts,talk less of having foreign ones. > > To this end, we are soliciting your assistance as a > foreign partner who can assist us and receive this > amount into your account. We are ready to share this > money with you on the basis of participation. We > also > have plans to invest part of this money in any > viable > business in your country under your care,as we are > nearing our retirement age. > > In any case, I received a reference of > you/organization from the Nigeria Chambers of > Commerce > and Industry 嚙瘤oreign Trade Division嚙 as a reputable > organ that can assist us on this transaction. Please > if you accept my proposal do not hesitate to send me > a > fax on 234 1 759 0379 or send me an e-mail on: > aloyede at yahoo.com , so that I can provide you with > the basic procedures for the release of the fund. > > It does not matter whether you or your company does > contract project of the nature described here, the > assumption is that you won a major contract and > subcontracted it to another company, more often than > not, big trading companies or individuals of > unrelated > field win major contracts here in Nigeria and > subcontracts same to more specialized firms for > execution. > > BENEFIT: For providing the account where we shall > remit this money, you will be entitled to 25% of the > entire funds, 70% will be for me and my > partners,while > 5% has been set aside to cover any expenses that may > be incurred by both parties during this transaction, > both local and international. > > Please I enjoin you to handle this transaction with > utmost degree of maturity and confidentiality > because > I am still in active government service with the > 嚙瞇IGERIAN NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION嚙. If I > receive your response on time, this whole > transaction > could be accomplished within the shortest possible > time based on your interest and determination,since > the money is already in transit. > > Please, try to call me up to confirm the receipt of > your fax or e-mail.The lines may be busy,but keep > trying till you get through. > > Yours faithfully, > > MR. FIDELIS ALOYE (MNIM). > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From GeorgeAndStephanie at bigpond.com Mon Jul 30 18:51:11 2001 From: GeorgeAndStephanie at bigpond.com (George Papanaoum) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:51:11 +0800 Subject: Home Typist Message-ID: <01e401c11963$4a592f20$076c8a90@oemcomputer> I am interested in your Home Typist Position. I am an Australian resident. I have extensive data entry experience and am proficient on all versions of MS Word, Excel & PowerPoint. My current speed in 12000 ks/hr. Please mail me if you are still seeking employees. Best Regards, Stephanie Papanaoum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From georgemw at speakeasy.net Tue Jul 31 09:55:38 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:55:38 -0700 Subject: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas In-Reply-To: <007301c11940$47b26700$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> On 30 Jul 2001, at 14:38, Black Unicorn wrote: > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoened by the > court? > Witness: Yes. > Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? > [Witness: I placed blocks of data on a safe site so they would be > accessible.] > [Witness: I split a cryptographic key and spread it among my friends and > encrypted the document to it.] > [Witness: I (insert clever but legally naive cypherpunk solution here) the > document.] > > (Oops) > Forgive me for being naive wrt the law, but as I interpret what you have written, the critical distinction is, if you refuse to comply with a judge's orders (for whatever reason) you'll get cited for contempt, but if you cannot comply with his orders you're ok. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you. So it seems to me that if you, say, publish documents to freenet (encypted or not) then you're ok; it's right there in the spec, docments cannot be removed, even by the original author. If your life depends on removing the document, then you die. How is this wrong? If it's a crime to take actions specifically for the purpose of later rendering you unable to comply with a judge's order (is it?), how is escrowing it on the isle of man any different? Thanks, George From cbouchard at ars.qc.ca Tue Jul 31 07:01:39 2001 From: cbouchard at ars.qc.ca (Claudine Bouchard) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:01:39 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c119c9$555c0760$cf8ca8c0@ken.ars.qc.ca> Hello, I am looking for a simple tracking device to put in my wife`s car so that I can trail her and find out where she is going each day. Thanks for any help that you can give me. kenholt at iname.com. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 496 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Jul 31 07:53:49 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:53:49 -0400 Subject: Forced disclosures, document seizures, Right and Wrong. Message-ID: Thanks for your response. The 'in his direct or indirect control' bit is the part that got lost in the article. I hope it was clear that I was not looking for ways to deny a court *access* to a piece of information, but rather using the net (prior to a subpoena) as an way to make *sequestration* of a piece of info impossible, by placing copies permanently outside 'his direct or indirect control'. --------------- I hope you read Mike's 'Oh pointy one' note carefully; it points out one of the great problems most of us IANAL have with IAAL types - the confusion of laws and court action with right and justice, and actions which are simply unlawful at a given time and place with wrong and injustice. Laws and courts are or should be an attempt to map the behaviour of governments to right and justice, but lawyers so often seemed to have been conditioned into thinking they are one and the same, rather than a (very) rough approximation. [Case to point: Canter and Siegel claiming that there was nothing wrong with them sending their Green Card spam, since there was no law against it.] It's possible - indeed essential - for people to argue over right and wrong, justice and injustice without regard for what a given legal and court system says; even a court and legal system which can send Men With Guns after them. Laws do not define Right and Wrong. Courts and Legal Systems do not define Justice. They are better than nothing at all, but we should never imbue them with divine wisdom. That way lies Tyranny. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Jul 31 07:53:49 2001 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:53:49 -0400 Subject: Forced disclosures, document seizures, Right and Wrong. Message-ID: Thanks for your response. The 'in his direct or indirect control' bit is the part that got lost in the article. I hope it was clear that I was not looking for ways to deny a court *access* to a piece of information, but rather using the net (prior to a subpoena) as an way to make *sequestration* of a piece of info impossible, by placing copies permanently outside 'his direct or indirect control'. --------------- I hope you read Mike's 'Oh pointy one' note carefully; it points out one of the great problems most of us IANAL have with IAAL types - the confusion of laws and court action with right and justice, and actions which are simply unlawful at a given time and place with wrong and injustice. Laws and courts are or should be an attempt to map the behaviour of governments to right and justice, but lawyers so often seemed to have been conditioned into thinking they are one and the same, rather than a (very) rough approximation. [Case to point: Canter and Siegel claiming that there was nothing wrong with them sending their Green Card spam, since there was no law against it.] It's possible - indeed essential - for people to argue over right and wrong, justice and injustice without regard for what a given legal and court system says; even a court and legal system which can send Men With Guns after them. Laws do not define Right and Wrong. Courts and Legal Systems do not define Justice. They are better than nothing at all, but we should never imbue them with divine wisdom. That way lies Tyranny. Peter Trei From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 11:00:03 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:00:03 -0700 Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:27 AM +0200 7/31/01, Eugene Leitl wrote: >On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > >> I think most of the "pointers" are just symptoms of laziness. It >> looks like people just think "cross-pollinating" without analysis is >> the thing to do. > >Some of the pointers are also symptoms of a bad connectivity. I've got >only a very lagged ssh link at *work*, zero connection at home. > >I think there's definitely value in a dedicated cpunx news sink >(Choategrams included), so if you have no objections, I'll go ahead, and >make one at yahoogroups. First, you will of course find that no one but yourself will check the "yahoogroups" ghetto site. (If you are not familiar with the history of such ghettoes, "alt.cypherpunks" was an example of such a ghetto created half a dozen years ago. Someone even created "alt.cypherpunks.technical" and a few other sub-ghettoes. I don't think they got much propagation, even in a world of 80,000 newsgroups, and they may have been pulled...haven't seen mention of them in years. Yahoo is just the latest place for such ghettoes, where a handful of people will ask "Why isn't there any discussion here?") Second, I'm confused. You say you have bad connectivity at work and no connection at home. If you can take Choate's URL pointers and follow them, why can you not go directly to the source (Yahoo, Slashdot, CNET, Wired, etc.)? And how will you access Yahoo groups with poor/zero connectivity? (I assume you're not saying that your connections are so bad that you are counting on Choate to pre-screen material for you? The math doesn't work out, not to mention the aesthetics.) In any case, the larger issue is not whether you have good connectivity, or are counting on Choate to keep you informed on Martian microbes and Teslas physics or whatever. The larger issue is that Cypherpunks cannot survive as a mere dumping ground for URLs. Asking Choate to dump his URL pointers into a Yahoo chat room is a worthy thing, but not likely to make him change his evil ways. And the problem goes beyond Choate. With many here subscribed to a dozen or more heavily-overlapping groups (covering crypto, copyright, etc. issues), the tendency is strong to simply bounce pointers around. In fact, the motivation for my article was seeing _your_ posting of several messages yesterday with nothing more than URLs. "Oh, no, Eugene's gone Choatian on us!" If you connectivity is so bad, why are you sending _us_ URL pointers? Careful with that ASCII, Eugene. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From codrea4 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 31 11:11:10 2001 From: codrea4 at earthlink.net (David and Maureen Codrea) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:11:10 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? References: Message-ID: <00eb01c119ec$2f0f6980$d9200518@rdondo1.ca.home.com> ["Ah! But that is exactly why you are so loveable, IMMHO, David."] As I understand "Beloved" is the Hebrew translation of the name "David", it seems we are both in agreement on the one essential point by which all others pale: I am loveable. Peace. DC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal Lang" To: "David Codrea (E-mail)" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "Peter Mancus (E-mail)" ; "Merrill Gibson (E-mail)" Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:40 AM Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang > > Hi, David, > Thank you for so generously allowing me more of your > valuable time. > >Jeez, I can't let this one go by... > I thought so. "Don't you just love it when a plan comes > together?" > >First- I dropped that guy what-his-name from distribution > because he wanted off. > "A mind is a terrible thing to lose!" > >Plenty of stuff on 14A by Kopel and Halbrook pointing out > how 2A was integral to it, and how the incorporation doctrine flies in the > face of its framers. We can speak theoretically of how it may not have been > properly ratified, but it is legally recognized in the here and now, and > until it is overturned or repealed, it is something the AG, as you point > out, is compelled to uphold. > "(B)ut it is legally recognized in the here and now" - As is > "compelling state interest". I get the impression, David, that you like to > "pick and choose" your principles of established law. I am afraid while you > can General Ashcroft can't. > >I have never claimed to be a big Marbury fan- I merely > cited one important quotation from it that had relevance to the topic. That > quotation could have come from Dred Scott as far as I'm concerned and it > would still be true, even though the decision of that case was repellant. > The problem with using Supreme Court decisions to make your > points, David, is that when you cite one you really need to be prepared to > defend it. Chief Justice Taney's decision in Dred Scott, for example, would > not have been possible but for the political compromise that was the U.S. > Constitution. (See Dave Kopel's "Dread the Dred Scott Reference" at: > http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121400.shtml > - for more > information on citing the Supremes.) Once you have established an > anti-Natural Right premise that man can be chattel, then any Court decision > is possible and likely, IMMHO. > >Nowhere have I ever maintained that a felon should be able > to use a gun in a crime and not get punished big time. This is a > misinterpretation of my arguments, as my concern was for people like you and > I getting caught up in the enforcement of existing gun laws, which are and > remain, as I pointed out earlier, EXISTING CIVILIAN DISARMAMENT laws. I > didn't say PE WAS taking honest citizens off the street, I said that once > you open the door to these kinds of laws, enforcement can reflect the > policies of the administration in power, and that once you tolerate > usurpations of power, important checks against abuse have been ceded. > Never did I accuse you of such nonsense. I merely observed > how you seemed to have no problem with "heat packing" felons. Obviously I > see now that you would prefer that they must leave them home when they go to > work. Possibly I mistook your passionate attack against using the existing > the Federal Criminal Code's prohibiting felons from possessing firearms to > mean more to you than it does. Of course this begs the question, "Can the > government (Federal or State) prohibit felons from possessing firearms at > all?" Exactly where do you stand, David, on the issue and why? If you > agree that the State can and should, why not use such existing laws to > separate these felons, who infringe on our rights, IMMHO, from society? If > not, than it logically follows that you favor the right of felons to "keep > and bear arms", doesn't it? If there is a third (or more possibilities), > please enlighten me. Oh, sorry, you did say you wouldn't be back, didn't > you? I suppose this burning question will hang there unanswered for > eternity. > >Yes, we must have strong laws to punish violent criminals; > I merely suggest that we can do this without violating the Constitution. > For starters, we can all; be safer against predators if we repeal, instead > of enforce, unconstitutional gun control laws, as all they do is make it > safer for the criminals to operate- isn't that superior to eroding our > mutual (and as you pointed out) inalienable rights? > I agree. Strong punishment for irresponsible members of > society after Constitutionally acceptable "due process". Repeal all those > DUMB "gun control laws" that infringe on the right of "responsible" people > "to keep and bear arms". Now, that agreed, exactly where do we differ from > the "gospel according to Moses"? > >Personally, I think your wife OUGHT to be able to have a > firearm on school grounds, and concealed on her person, > While my wife at one time taught(?) infants in a Day Care > School, its my daughter-in-law, who teaches in a inter-city public school, > that I am most concerned about in regards to the so-called "Safe Schools > Act". This Christmas I got her petite Berretta small caliber pistol for > self-defence. I advised her to carry it (if possible) and worry later about > "being judged by 12, instead of being carried by six". Interestingly, the > Federal "Safe School Act" was properly disposed of by the Supremes > (over-reaching commerce clause application instead of 2nd Amendment, but it > works for me). The Florida statute cover the same issue is still in affect. > However, juries and judges in Palm Beach County (believe or not), where both > my daughter-in-law and I live have had enough good sense to "jury nullify" > this State law in cases involving obvious self-defence situations. > >and that it should be able to hold more than 10 rounds and > be semiautomatic, and even be newly purchased even though it is on a federal > "ban" list. > Absolutely! I feel "Full Auto" (a.k.a. real "Assault > Rifles" and "Trench Brooms") and "crew served" weapons are not > "unreasonable", as well. After all, just how are we propose to effectively > operate under a Congressionally granted "Letters of Marque and Reprisal" > (U.S. Constitution - Article I Section 9 Paragraph 3) if our privately owned > vessel don't "sport" privately owned "crew served" weapons? (See: > http://hartungpress.com/news/columns/baldwin/letters_of_marque_clause.htm > > - for the 2nd Amendment implications.) > >I think she ought to be able to have a gun even if she got > in a fight and was convicted of misdemeanor assault. > Here we might find some disagreement, as I am not so sure > that certain irresponsible conduct might not limit the exercise of rights in > specific cases. You seem to be ready to disconnect responsible behavior > from the "right to be armed". I am not ready to go so far. I believe that > a "blanket recognition" that the rkba can be suspended for persons that > demonstrate irrational or irresponsible behavior is possible. This could > possibly reach the level of "compelling state interest", IMMHO. Would I be > upset if such laws, especially any Federal laws, should be over-turned or > legislatively repeal? Most likely not. However, I believe all "Civil > Rights" require a moral people to exercise them responsibly. > >These are existing gun laws, and if she violates them, they > can carry federal penalties. I don't want to infringe on her right to keep > and bear arms, nor allow the feds to have that power, especially when the > proscription against them doing this could not be more clear. > Well the School thing is pretty much a State concern now. > That said, I too believe in an "unalienable right to keep and bear arms" as > long as it is done responsibly by responsible people. James Madison would > agree with me on this, David, I think. > >Can you guarantee that Project Exile can NEVER be abused to > do this? > I note with sadness you ignored my challenge to show > evidence of government abuse in existing "Project Exile" efforts. Instead > you have elected to challenge me to "prove a negative". Which, of course, > is quite impossible, as I am sure you are aware. While I understand that > "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance" and that the Russians > (Chinese?) might in fact be coming, I do not plan on leaving work today and > going home to load-up my "trusty .06" and head for the beach with my > entrenching tool. > Truthfully, David, I think your animosity towards "Project > Exile" appears to bordering on real paranoia. You being an "inmate" of > California I can possibly understand why. Can governments abuse their > power, sure, it happens all the time. However, carrying this logic to YOUR > CONCLUSION I guess we need to disband our armed forces because they may be > (have been) "used to abuse" by our evil government. > I believe a corollary (possibly posed by Sarah Brady) to > your above challenge, David, might be - "If the government lets the People > keep and bear arms, can you guarantee the People will NEVER abuse this > right?" > >If so, I will surrender on this point and shut up. I know > that NRA INTENDS that PE will only affect "those people", but you have > failed to demonstrate how NRA will have any say in the matter should > political power shift dramatically to the Democrats. > Well I truly appreciate your concession. As for the NRA > having a say should the power shift, I think your efforts to undermine the > NRA may be your self fulfilling prophesy (fantasy?). Keep trying to weaken > the NRA and you may one day be able to say - "See, Neal, I told you so, > those Socialist are in power and all our rights are history." Personally, > while they may have some warts, I believe that the NRA is best and "Most > Effective and Influential" game in town when it comes to protecting my > "right to keep and bear arms." > >And I totally reject your assertion that "my" fight (where > the heck did you get THAT impression?) against Project Exile is either > hopeless or useless, especially judging from the gun rights leaders who have > signed the denouncement statement on keepandbeararms.com. > https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=720 > They > represent some of the finest intellects and activists in the rkba community, > and you cannot ignore them or their concerns if you hope to be either > effective and innovative. Why on earth would you want to? > I get the impression, David, of the "circled firing squad", > actually. Even the founders where sometimes wrong, my friend. I submit as > proof the Constitutional's enshrining of the institution of "slavery". I > don't ignore you or them, David, and I do respect all your opinions. I just > believe you (and they) have been blinded by a paranoia that might be > justified, however, I see no proof of the any alleged abuses forthcoming. > Can "Project Exile" be useful in our on-going struggle to "secure these > rights"? Yes, I truly think so. As a matter of fact - rather than continue > our dialog where I ask you questions you wont answer, and you ask me > questions that no one can answer, possibly an essay extolling the virtues of > "Project Exile" is in order. > >Here's the problem, Neal- there ain't no light at the end > of this tunnel. There will be more back-and-forth and more debating, and > more time composing answers and rebuttals and counter-arguments and > "gotcha's", but I don't see either one of us budging from our original > stance. > I suppose I could continue spending time each day on this > doing point-counterpoint with you, but I don't see where it's gonna get us. > It takes time away from too many other things that I have already > prioritized. So I hope you understand that I need to back off of this- I > think I was pretty up front about that from the start. I don't think anyone > can accuse me of ducking anything, but I'd appreciate it if we could just > agree to disagree on this and call a truce. > Ah! David, I empathize with your problem - "So much > ignorance and so little time." I guess you're right - honest and open > debate never settled anything. Just look how badly those dastardly > "Federalist Papers" mucked things up for us. > I think the problem might just be our separate perceptions > of the "glass". I see it as "half-full". While you, my friend, see it as > "half-empty" (or maybe "completely empty"?). I suppose this defines the > perspective of the "Classical Liberal" versus the "Libertarian". Oh Well! > Such is life. I just hope you feel, as do I, that despite our disagreement, > we remain friends dedicated to my grandkids' freedom. > >Feel free to have the last word on this, but I just GOTTA > drop this for now. > "Feel free" - as in: "By your leave?" I was going to > anyway, but then I guess I am "stiff-necked and ornery" as well. :-) > >p.s.- not "Dave"- call it a snotty affectation on my part, > but I just never cared for it...:-) > Sorry, I had no idea. You should have mentioned it sooner. > No offense intended. "Snotty affectation" - COOL! > >p.s.s.- the following from Merrill Gibson addresses > "compelling state interest"- it is on topic, and this you'll like, Neal, it > defends Ashcroft's position. Merrill makes some good points- > Thanks, it is indeed excellent. Not Ashcroft's position, > David - the CORRECT position. > >I ain't totally on board with it, but that's probably just > because I'm so stiff-necked and ornery. > Ah! But that is exactly why you are so loveable, IMMHO, > David. > Keep the Faith, > > Neal > <<...>> > Neal J. Lang (Signed) > E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net > > From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 11:15:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:15:51 -0700 Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:00 AM -0700 7/31/01, Tim May wrote: > >Second, I'm confused. You say you have bad connectivity at work and >no connection at home. If you can take Choate's URL pointers and >follow them, why can you not go directly to the source (Yahoo, >Slashdot, CNET, Wired, etc.)? And how will you access Yahoo groups >with poor/zero connectivity? >And the problem goes beyond Choate. With many here subscribed to a >dozen or more heavily-overlapping groups (covering crypto, >copyright, etc. issues), the tendency is strong to simply bounce >pointers around. In fact, the motivation for my article was seeing >_your_ posting of several messages yesterday with nothing more than >URLs. "Oh, no, Eugene's gone Choatian on us!" > >If you connectivity is so bad, why are you sending _us_ URL pointers? > >Careful with that ASCII, Eugene. OK, I checked what you sent to us yesterday and last week, and you posted more than just URLs. I was wrong about that. But you forwarded articles (and URLs) from other lists, other news sources. I saw one from the Extropians list, another from Yahoo/CNET, one from Dave Farber, etc. This is in some sense better than just dumping URLs on us, but it's not needed. We can read Yahoo to read about Singapore cameras. And so on. Unless there is some new twist for Cypherpunks, or some urgency, why make the CP list a dumping ground for what is better read with browsers? As I said, I'm confused about how you say you're doing this because you have poor connectivity at work and zero at home? And yet you clearly found these articles in the first place, so how does mailing them out to Cypherpunks help you with connectivity problems? Puzzled, --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From NealL at mwicorp.com Tue Jul 31 08:19:45 2001 From: NealL at mwicorp.com (Neal Lang) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:19:45 -0400 Subject: You really got to love the new AG Message-ID: ** John Soat: IT Confidential Attorney General John Ashcroft last week appointed a chief privacy officer for the Justice Department and said that person will take a hard look at Carnivore, the FBI's electronic E-mail eavesdropping device. Ashcroft tapped associate deputy attorney general Dan Collins to serve as CPO for Justice, to "provide advice to senior department officials on privacy-related legal and policy issues," according to a statement. Collins will examine issues such as the privacy implications of law-enforcement technology, the Justice Department's obligation to protect the privacy of the information it acquires in its operations, its responsibility to protect personal privacy from unlawful invasion, and new legislation or regulations regarding privacy. Also, Collins will study DCS1000--the official name for Carnivore-and make recommendations about the need for modifications to the system. This guy's no slouch: He graduated from Harvard summa cum laude, got his law degree from Stanford, clerked for Supreme Court Justice Anthony Scalia, and served as assistant U.S. attorney in Los Angeles prior to working at Justice. You think Carnivore's bad? Compare that with a study released last week by security service provider Vigilinx about the risks of doing business in Russia. According to what Vigilinx describes as a "threatscape" assessment of a three-year period, security risks in Russia have escalated since 1996, when then-president Boris Yeltsin ordered top state officials to close the technology gap with the West. According to Vigilinx CEO Bruce Murphy, the Russian government "advocates industrial espionage to close the technological gap with Western economies." The report says highly developed espionage and sabotage techniques are a Cold War legacy. The government controls almost all electronic paths in and out of Russia, the study says, and electronic monitoring is a fact of life. That means "the possibility that U.S. firms are already under active surveillance by Russian special services is very real." From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Tue Jul 31 02:27:04 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:27:04 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: > I think most of the "pointers" are just symptoms of laziness. It > looks like people just think "cross-pollinating" without analysis is > the thing to do. Some of the pointers are also symptoms of a bad connectivity. I've got only a very lagged ssh link at *work*, zero connection at home. I think there's definitely value in a dedicated cpunx news sink (Choategrams included), so if you have no objections, I'll go ahead, and make one at yahoogroups. Unless any of you people already run such a newsticker? No point in reinventing the wheel. > My solution is to add more and more of you who do this to my filter files. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 11:30:16 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:30:16 -0700 Subject: Crypto instructions = Bomb-making instructions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:09 AM -0700 7/30/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Sat, 28 Jul 2001, David Honig wrote: > >>>Not a problem -- as long as what you're making available to the >>>public at DefCon is not a program that script kiddies can download >>>and use to break stuff. >> >>What's a 'program' in the above sentence? Is source a program? Source >>without the main() and #includes? Source with an intentionally missing ';'? >>Precise english description of an algorithm? Math? What exactly >>are the limits of a 'script kiddie'? > >Oh, please, let's not get into specious crap. I'm totally familiar >with the concept that "source code" is considered by some to be a >gray area. > >To me, the distinction is relatively clear. Source code is what >enables someone to do X whether or not they understand X. You don't >have to understand the weaknesses in a cryptosystem to correct a >few syntax errors, figure out what standard libraries to include, >or do a conversion between different forms of the source with a >perl script. I mean, the code could *help* you understand it, if >you were inclined to read it for content -- but if you can get it >working without understanding what it does, it probably violates >the law. Translate this semantic debate into "bomb-making instructions." There are various forms of the recipes for making a bomb, ranging from a very high-level description to a highly-detailed recipe that nearly any moron could follow. At which point is the description illegal under the Feinstein type of proposal? And where does Felten fit into this spectrum? Felten and his co-workers say they were threatened with a DMCA suit (civil, I presume) if they went ahead and presented their research. (The recording industry claims they had no plans to sue...) The language of the DMCA, which several people have been debating here for the past week or so, certainly suggests that Felten and Co. could have been sued, even prosecuted criminally, under the DMCA. This is my reading. To get back to the "high level" (source code) vs. "low level" (executable) point, there is no meaningful difference between the two. Just a mapping, via either "knowledge" or a "compiler." If detailed bomb-making instructions are banned, then the law will have to "back up" into more general instructions and then back further. The critical point is that Congress is now in the business of criminalizing mere speech. mere research. Whether one quibbles about whether hackers "understand" the instructions on how to bypass crypto protections, or whether bombz d00dz "understand" the chemistry and physics of their bombs, the new outlawing of crypto instructions and bomb-making instructions is the issue. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 31 09:30:16 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:30:16 -0500 Subject: Election panel calls for voting holiday Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/31/election.laws/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From rick_smith at securecomputing.com Tue Jul 31 09:31:37 2001 From: rick_smith at securecomputing.com (Rick Smith at Secure Computing) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:31:37 -0500 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> Message-ID: <20010731165950.B386736D4A@mononoke.wasabisystems.com> At 01:13 PM 7/27/2001, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: >It's certainly not broad enough -- it protects "encryption" research, >and the definition of "encryption" in the law is meant to cover just >that, not "cryptography". And the good-faith effort to get permission >is really an invitation to harrassment, since you don't have to >actually get permission, merely seek it. Hmmm. What would happen if every "legitimate" cryptography researcher routinely transmitted an announcement to every vendor of copy protection telling them that the researcher was going to be 'researching' the vendor's products? Research is such a wonderful term. I suppose I'm doing some sort of "cryptography research" just by looking at the bits that encode some sort of protected content. I must guiltily confess that I've been doing security long enough that I look with a skeptical eye at every "security implementation" I see, even if it's just a security camera or a string of barbed wire. There are probably enough "cryptography researchers" out there that even a large vendor won't feel tempted to harass them all proactively. Rick. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From rick_smith at securecomputing.com Tue Jul 31 09:31:37 2001 From: rick_smith at securecomputing.com (Rick Smith at Secure Computing) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:31:37 -0500 Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010727181340.915F07B59@berkshire.research.att.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010731112046.00b859a8@STPNTMX03.sctc.com> At 01:13 PM 7/27/2001, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: >It's certainly not broad enough -- it protects "encryption" research, >and the definition of "encryption" in the law is meant to cover just >that, not "cryptography". And the good-faith effort to get permission >is really an invitation to harrassment, since you don't have to >actually get permission, merely seek it. Hmmm. What would happen if every "legitimate" cryptography researcher routinely transmitted an announcement to every vendor of copy protection telling them that the researcher was going to be 'researching' the vendor's products? Research is such a wonderful term. I suppose I'm doing some sort of "cryptography research" just by looking at the bits that encode some sort of protected content. I must guiltily confess that I've been doing security long enough that I look with a skeptical eye at every "security implementation" I see, even if it's just a security camera or a string of barbed wire. There are probably enough "cryptography researchers" out there that even a large vendor won't feel tempted to harass them all proactively. Rick. From amaha at vsnl.net Tue Jul 31 09:48:57 2001 From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:48:57 -0500 Subject: Thought-A-Day Message-ID: <200107311648.f6VGmuZ10339@ak47.algebra.com> Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none. --Benjamin Franklin ======================================================================= Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Inspiration. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will help to make your life peaceful,successful & happy. However, if you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line. Director, Fountain of Inspiration (A non-religious Organisation) From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 31 11:52:05 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stegotext in usenet as offsite backup In-Reply-To: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >If it's a crime to take actions specifically for the purpose of later >rendering you unable to comply with a judge's order (is it?), >how is escrowing it on the isle of man any different? Oddly, I've been watching this one with some interest. The other day I got worried about potential disk drive crashes, since with one thing and another I'm starting to accumulate a lot of unreleased original source code on my main machine. After the work I've put into it, I'd hate to lose it. But it's not an application that does anything useful yet. It would be handy, from my point of view, to use usenet as an "offsite backup" solution -- posting encrypted source for work-in-progress on binary newsgroups so I could just go back and nab it out of the archives if I ever have a disk crash or in case the computer gets stolen. If I want to increase the odds of its getting archived, I would just embed it in a sound file or a movie file using stego (original sound and movies, so as to avoid DMCA hassles, of course). Stegograms present an interesting copyright question for the legally inclined; if I'm using usenet archives as offsite backup via stegograms, I'm okay with the release and public use of the stegogram, which most folks will interpret as being the same as the covertext. But would that entangle the copyright on the stegotext as well? Or if somebody took the stegogram and figured it out, would I have legal recourse to stop them from doing anything with my code? (I was considering going to a lawyer with this one, but since the odds against anyone hacking the password on the encrypted data in the stegotext are literally astronomical, I figure the point is sufficiently moot to be not worth answering except as an intellectual curiosity.) Bear From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 11:53:46 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:53:46 -0700 Subject: Forced disclosures, document seizures, Right and Wrong. References: Message-ID: <002a01c119f2$219c3570$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trei, Peter" To: "'Black Unicorn'" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:53 AM Subject: RE: Forced disclosures, document seizures, Right and Wrong. > Thanks for your response. The 'in his direct or indirect > control' bit is the part that got lost in the article. Sure. News articles are the WORST source for legal analysis. > I hope it was clear that I was not looking for ways to > deny a court *access* to a piece of information, but > rather using the net (prior to a subpoena) as an way > to make *sequestration* of a piece of info impossible, > by placing copies permanently outside 'his direct or > indirect control'. It was clear. I wanted to make sure to correct the common misconception among cypherpunks that you can just thumb your nose at a court with impunity. I didn't believe that you were exhibiting this behavior, but failing to clear things up often leads to misconceptions by others, who then cite the erroniously intrepreted stuff to support their silly ideas about legal-immune key escrow and etc. > I hope you read Mike's 'Oh pointy one' note carefully; > it points out one of the great problems most of us IANAL > have with IAAL types - the confusion of laws and court > action with right and justice, and actions which are > simply unlawful at a given time and place with wrong > and injustice. It's a base conflict. A legal education is the ultimate dose of practical cynicism. It quickly becomes apparent not that the law isn't perfect, but that it is often pretty damn screwed up. American jurisprudence is about _fairness of process_, not justice, or right, or wrong. The frustration that IAAL types usually have is that IANAL types tend to cross the line from criticzing the law to giving legal advice which is more derrived from their dislike for the state of the law than a recognition of what it really is. > Laws and courts are or should be an attempt to map > the behaviour of governments to right and justice, but > lawyers so often seemed to have been conditioned > into thinking they are one and the same, rather than > a (very) rough approximation. Well, again, the legal education process is designed around navigating through the system, not mapping the behavior of governments. > [Case to point: Canter and Siegel claiming that there > was nothing wrong with them sending their Green Card > spam, since there was no law against it.] > > It's possible - indeed essential - for people to argue > over right and wrong, justice and injustice without > regard for what a given legal and court system says; > even a court and legal system which can send Men > With Guns after them. Oh, I wholly agree. And I believe this is a fully valid function for cypherpunks. Unfortunately, it often shifts into "you should design this technical solution" - typically a technical solution which will end the operated in jail. To me the important distinction is to recognize what we want the ideal to be, but avoid running afoul of the law in the process. > Laws do not define Right and Wrong. > Courts and Legal Systems do not define Justice. > > They are better than nothing at all, but we should > never imbue them with divine wisdom. That way > lies Tyranny. Agreed. > Peter Trei > From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 12:02:24 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:02:24 -0700 Subject: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime References: <001001c1191d$2fb21330$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <003101c119f3$56961bf0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petro" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:38 AM Subject: Re: Ashcroft Targets U.S. Cybercrime > At 10:29 AM -0700 7/30/01, Black Unicorn wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >> At 7:20 AM -0500 7/26/01, measl at mfn.org wrote: > >> >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Petro wrote: > >> >You are confusing "civilians" and LEOs. Only civilians are held to the > >> >personal knowledge standard. Leos are held to profoundly lower probablity > >> >models. > >> > >> In order to arrest someone they have to have some sort of evidence that not > >only was a crime committed, but that the person they arrested has some > >reasonable probability of actually having committed that crime. > > >Uh, no. > > >If I were a duly appointed law enforcement official I could arrest you for the > >kind of shoes you were wearing. You'll have recourse eventually, but it will > >be after a 24 hour (or so) stay in the pokey and posting bail and hiring an > >attorney, and.... > > As a lawyer (and I strongly suspect based on your writing here over the years that you're not this kind of lawyer) if someone came to you wanting to sue the NYPD over whatever the legalese is for "false imprisonment" and had documents to prove that they'd been arrested for wearing purple oxfords on blue flue tuesday, would you buy a new BMW or a Mercedes? Neither, because that case would be unlikely to net much more than $10,000 in settlement. Hell, the guy who was violated with a baton and has effectively no colon anymore got a measely few million from the city. I have done white collar crime work, some related to forced disclosures, but false imprisonment cases are usually civil cases against private defendants. It's very hard to get a jurisdiction to pay for "injusticies" committed where duly sworn law enforcement officials were acting in an official capacity. > >> Maybe "know" is a little strong, "suspect" is probably a better way of > >putting it. > > > >You're reaching for the criteria by which the legitimacy of the arrest will be > >judged ex post. The terms you are grappling to find are "reasonable > >suspicion" and "probable cause." The point you are missing is that typically > >the only downside for the officer in making an "illegal arrest" is that the > >case will get tossed. Big deal. > > I was trying to stay away from "terms of art" where possible, since while I know what the english words "reasonable suspicion" mean, I know they are also used in a lot of cop and lawyer shows, as well as by cops and lawyers, therefore they are overloaded terms and not always in scope. Granted. > > >I suggest you attend 3 years of law school or otherwise educate yourself in > >the matter before presenting yourself as an authority on the issue and > >blathering off for paragraphs on end about nothing in particular. Sheesh, at > >least invest in a copy of black's law dictionary or something. It's common > >respect for the rest of the list members. > > I am seriously thinking about Law School, and several times during this "conversation" I have made it clear that (1) I am not a lawyer. (2) I am not speaking from a position of educated authority. I am speaking from *my* reading of the Constitution and discussions with lawyers and Cops, as well as other stuff I've read and thought about over the years. I've made it evident that I do not believe this is the way things *are*, but rather what *I* believe would work better. You overestimate the average contextual awareness level of the typical cypherpunk reader I think. [...] > >> Here's how it works (and there is a case going on right now about this). The > >government says "you have to have a tax stamp to own ". Then doesn't > >provide you any mechanism to actually *get* that stamp. > > > >Chicago does this. It requires registration for all handguns. No > >registrations have been issued since the early 70s or so. It's been > >challenged over and over. It stands. And will. > > Really? You mean *that's* why I couldn't find a gun store in Chicago the whole 7 years I lived there? > > And it was the early 80s during the Byrne administration that new firearms registrations were halted (although rumor had it that if you knew the right people, or had a good enough reason you could still get one registered. Of course, that is normal for Chicago). Registration started in 1968, the law stoping registration apparently came into effect in 1982. http://user.mc.net/~chevelle/handgunbans.htm I stand corrected. I had confused the 1968 date with the cesasation of registration issuances. From bear at sonic.net Tue Jul 31 12:05:33 2001 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crypto instructions = Bomb-making instructions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote: >The critical point is that Congress is now in the business of >criminalizing mere speech. mere research. Whether one quibbles about >whether hackers "understand" the instructions on how to bypass crypto >protections, or whether bombz d00dz "understand" the chemistry and >physics of their bombs, the new outlawing of crypto instructions and >bomb-making instructions is the issue. You are absolutely correct. From a human-rights point of view, that is exactly the problem. There are now thought-crimes. However, just because the law happens to be wrong, does not mean that specious crap can prevent a conviction on it in court. It says that "circumvention devices" are illegal, and the opinion of the court is that code -- source *or* executable -- is a "device". At the same time, it says that other information, which promotes *understanding*, but which is not a "device", is legal. At least for now. You can argue about gray areas and fine points all you want in this forum, but if your butt lands in court it will be dismissed as specious crap. Bear From lisat at etransmail2.com Tue Jul 31 12:10:45 2001 From: lisat at etransmail2.com (Lisa Thornton) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:10:45 -0700 Subject: New Prestige & Premium Checks! Message-ID: <200107311903.f6VJ3cZ28450@ak47.algebra.com> You are subscribed as: cypherpunks at algebra.com Good Afternoon! 1. New: highly attractive and secure Prestige & Premium check styles from G7 http://www.g7ps.com 2. Get your Executive Membership today and save on all your purchases of toner supplies, software and blank check paper! Click on the link below and then on the "Become a Member and Save" banner: http://www.g7ps.com 3. FREE Productivity Software in full retail packaging: ******************** a) eXpressForms "forms publisher" ($129.99 value) b) Fortune "relationship manager" ($149.99 value) c) DataScan "business card & contact list scanner" ($149.99 value) d) TransForm Suite "automatic form creation and text OCR" ($59.99 value) Pick up your FREE products at the web site specified below. 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From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 31 10:15:39 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: Text to speech copies any human voice Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/articles/01/07/31/1333253.shtml James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 12:22:16 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:22:16 -0700 Subject: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. Was: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas References: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> Message-ID: <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas > On 30 Jul 2001, at 14:38, Black Unicorn wrote: > > > Prosecutor: You retained copies of this document? > > Witness: Yes. > > Prosecutor: You were aware that all copies and original were subpoened by the > > court? > > Witness: Yes. > > Prosecutor: Where are these documents located? > > [Witness: I placed blocks of data on a safe site so they would be > > accessible.] > > [Witness: I split a cryptographic key and spread it among my friends and > > encrypted the document to it.] > > [Witness: I (insert clever but legally naive cypherpunk solution here) the > > document.] > > > > (Oops) > > > > Forgive me for being naive wrt the law, but as I interpret what you > have written, the critical distinction is, if you refuse to comply > with a judge's orders (for whatever reason) you'll get cited for > contempt, but if you cannot comply with his orders you're ok. > Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you. Pretty close I think. > So it seems to me that if you, say, publish documents to freenet > (encrypted or not) then you're ok; it's right there in the spec, > documents cannot be removed, even by the original author. If your > life depends on removing the document, then you die. > How is this wrong? Not being intimately familiar with the spec of freenet I can't really comment on that aspect or what a court will consider "impossible." What will not amuse a court is the appearance of an ex ante concealment or disclosure in anticipation of court action. If it looks like you knew it was going to be a court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble. Not only that but if you encrypt the stuff and it doesn't appear to be recoverable it almost sounds tantamount to destruction of evidence or spoliation (much more serious). ("The intentional destruction of evidence... The destruction, or the significant and meaningful alteration of a document or instrument...") I've never seen a case play out like that but I would certainly make the argument as a prosecutor. Encrypting the stuff sure _looks_ like spoliation, particularly if it seemed likely that the evidence would be the subject of a judicial action. "Knew or should have known" will likely be the standard with respect to the stuff being the subject of judicial action and they can use actions to demonstrate intent. In this light freenet might be the _worst_ place to put it because its only purpose is (I believe) to avoid censorship or seizure of the data. Why would you have used this relatively obscure and very specialized service if not in anticipation of court action which would later prevent the distribution of the data? Who else was threatening the manuscript, document, etc. to such a degree to require you to use freenet? (Not only that but spoliation carries with it the permissible inference that the data was detrimental to you and the jury gets to hear that). > If it's a crime to take actions specifically for the purpose of later > rendering you unable to comply with a judge's order (is it?), > how is escrowing it on the isle of man any different? There are legitimate purposes for escrowing it on the Isle of Man over and above keeping it out of a court's hands. The key is to have _some_ leg to stand on when asked "if not trying to thwart the authority of this court, why did you do that." Good answers might sound like: "I wanted the proceeds of the manuscripts sale protected in trust for my grandchildren." "I wanted the negotiations to be handled by the same attorney that manages my spendthrift trust" (You do have one, right?) "I wanted to publish it anonymously, and needed a good attorney in a jurisdiction with strong confidentiality statutes to accomplish that end. I had no idea that the irrevocable trust was so far reaching that it would deny access to a legitimate judicial proceeding, your honor..." I'm not sure there are many arguments for using freenet other than "I knew you pigs were going to try and grab it so I sent it far, far away." > Thanks, > George Sure. From jchoate at us.tivoli.com Tue Jul 31 10:51:55 2001 From: jchoate at us.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:51:55 -0500 Subject: Panel: Restore vote to felons Message-ID: http://salon.com/politics/wire/2001/07/31/felon/index.html James Choate Product Certification - Operating Systems Staff Engineer 512-436-1062 jchoate at tivoli.com From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Tue Jul 31 09:53:42 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:53:42 -0400 Subject: NYT: Organized Crime Case Raises Privacy Issues Message-ID: <579ce80b7d0a523e7e1e35a36ccbc865@anonymous> By JOHN SCHWARTZ icodemo S. Scarfo Jr. might seem an unlikely champion of civil liberties in the high-tech age. Mr. Scarfo, the son of the jailed mob boss "Little Nicky" Scarfo, has been awaiting trial on charges of running gambling and loan sharking operations for the Gambino crime family. But like so many businessmen today, Mr. Scarfo kept his data on his personal computer; and like many other businessmen, he encrypted the sensitive stuff to protect it from prying eyes. Today, a federal judge in Newark will hear defense motions to throw out evidence gathered by a controversial new law enforcement technology: a system that recorded every keystroke typed on Mr. Scarfo's computer, including the password that investigators used to unscramble Mr. Scarfo's files. That wrinkle in the case makes the United States v. Scarfo the latest battleground in a growing struggle to determine the proper balance between the government's ability to conduct surveillance and a citizen's right to privacy. "It raises a whole issue of invasive law enforcement technology that really hasn't been considered by the courts yet," said David L. Sobel, who has followed the case closely as the general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. The Scarfo case comes at a time of rising concern about the government's power to snoop. In other cases, the Federal Bureau of Investigation's use of an Internet wiretap system initially known as Carnivore ignited opposition from privacy advocates and a number of Republican lawmakers, who said the technology sampled the communications of many customers of an Internet provider, not just the suspects. Similarly, public uproar accompanied the announcement that Tampa had installed surveillance cameras with facial recognition technology to spot criminal suspects in the city's Ybor entertainment district. The courts are paying attention. The Supreme Court, in a case known as Kyllo v. the United States, which was decided in June, restricted the ability of police to use thermal imaging cameras to look inside houses without a search warrant. In the majority opinion, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote that the court was confronting a fundamental question about the Fourth Amendment: "what limits there are upon this power of technology to shrink the realm of guaranteed privacy." When the police raided Mr. Scarfo's business, Merchant Services of Essex County in Belleville, N.J., in January 1999, they found a computer and copied the contents of its hard drive. But investigators could not read one file on the machine, because it had been encrypted using a common program, PGP, which stands for Pretty Good Privacy. Encryption has become an essential part of doing business on the Internet for companies and consumers alike. And the rising use of encryption technology has long been a concern of the F.B.I., which has said the technology could be devastating to criminal investigations. The Scarfo case shows one way the F.B.I. has tried to address the problem. Agents went back into Mr. Scarfo's business under court order and surreptitiously installed what court papers identify only as a "key logger system" on the target PC. The F.B.I. would not say whether the system was a hardware device or purely software, or give any details about how it worked, except to say that it recorded every keystroke entered into the machine. Agents returned to Mr. Scarfo's business over the following months to retrieve data recorded by the system. Ultimately, the logger captured a password, nds09813-050. Mr. Scarfo had apparently changed his password, however, because it did not decrypt the original file. But investigators found new versions of the file on floppy disks in Mr. Scarfo's home, and the password worked to unscramble the file, which prosecutors say contained accounts of gambling and loan activities. (The annual interest rate on the loans, as calculated by the F.B.I., was 152 percent.) In briefs presented to Judge Nicholas H. Politan of United States District Court, who will preside over today's hearing, Mr. Scarfo and his lawyers assert that any evidence collected with the help of the keyboard logger should be thrown out because the technology was not used in ways that passed Constitutional muster. They say that because the keyboard logger collected everything Mr. Scarfo typed, the court order permitting its use violated longstanding constitutional rules that search warrants and evidence collection should be as narrow as possible. They also assert that the technology is like a wiretap, and that therefore the relatively difficult process of obtaining an electronic communications wiretap order, known in law enforcement as a "Title III" order, should have been followed, instead of the more basic search warrant procedure. Mr. Scarfo's lawyers have demanded full technical details of the key logger system. The assistant United States attorney on the case, Ronald D. Wigler, said in his court response to Mr. Scarfo that the technology was used in full compliance with the law. In the brief, he refused to discuss technical details of the "sensitive law enforcement technique," saying that to do so would tip the hand of law enforcement in future cases. Mr. Wigler also said that the system did not record any e-mail communications and so the requirements for a wiretap warrant did not apply: "Letters do not become `electronic communications' subject to Title III merely because they happen to have been typed on a computer." All lawyers involved with the case are under court order not to speak about the case. Mr. Sobel said the use of keyboard loggers was a new area of surveillance that posed a threat to personal privacy. "If what this case means is we are about to see an explosion in the number of surreptitious police entries," he said, "that's a troubling development." Mr. Sobel, who has advised Mr. Scarfo's lawyers in the case and has followed it closely, said, "It's a very serious precedent." As people's computers become their mailboxes, home shopping malls, entertainment centers and more, he said, technologies like the key logger system give law enforcement "a secret means of monitoring all of that activity." Mark Rasch, an expert in government surveillance, said he was concerned about the use of the key logger before its constitutional implications have been thoroughly considered by policy makers. "What I want to know is the extent to which government believes it is entitled to invade privacy within the bounds of the law," said Mr. Rasch, a vice president of Predictive Systems (news/quote), a network consulting firm. He is also a former Justice Department lawyer who has consulted with a civil liberties group following the case. Philip R. Zimmermann, the creator of the program used by Mr. Scarfo and millions of other people worldwide, said, "I knew PGP would be used by criminals; I felt bad about that." He also said, however, that "the good uses to which PGP is put are so compelling that we have to factor that into the whole equation." He recalled inventing the program 10 years ago with goals like promoting privacy and protecting political dissidents around the world. But most powerful technologies, like automobiles, "have mixed effects on society," he said. "The fact that criminals use cars doesn't mean that the rest of us shouldn't have cars." Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company From freematt at coil.com Tue Jul 31 10:08:06 2001 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:08:06 -0400 Subject: Why the DMCA is anti-security and anti-privacy Message-ID: From honig at sprynet.com Tue Jul 31 13:12:37 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:12:37 -0700 Subject: Stegotext in usenet as offsite backup In-Reply-To: References: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010731131237.008b0e90@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:52 AM 7/31/01 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote: >If I want to increase the odds of its getting archived, I >would just embed it in a sound file or a movie file using >stego (original sound and movies, so as to avoid DMCA >hassles, of course). Porn would be a good carrier, as few actually 'rip' the originals (eg from analog tape) and they are widely duplicated. >Stegograms present an interesting copyright question for >the legally inclined; if I'm using usenet archives as offsite >backup via stegograms, I'm okay with the release and public >use of the stegogram, which most folks will interpret as >being the same as the covertext. But would that entangle >the copyright on the stegotext as well? When you put out an image you took, you own the copy rights to it; you also own the rights to the same perceptually-unchanged image with all the LSBs altered. Now if you start using creative manipulations, at some point the new creator owns a new creation. (Ie, a song or picture with the watermark removed is still copyrighted; but a processed sample can be used in your own works.) Or if somebody took >the stegogram and figured it out, would I have legal recourse >to stop them from doing anything with my code? Of course, if you can prove you wrote the code first. *Proving* the release date and giving the key and stego program could convince others. Presenting a one-time-pad which generates some contested-code from some picture is not convincing :-) >(I was considering going to a lawyer with this one, but >since the odds against anyone hacking the password on the >encrypted data in the stegotext are literally astronomical, >I figure the point is sufficiently moot to be not worth >answering except as an intellectual curiosity.) > > Bear Maybe a colleage lifted the plaintext. There's a dude from Avanti going to San Quentin for lifting code. Cost over $100e6 to Avanti, too. You'd be better off just encrypting the whole tarball and putting it up on a geocities (etc) site ---Tomlinson style. From 100free at cgispy.com Tue Jul 31 06:23:53 2001 From: 100free at cgispy.com (100free at cgispy.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:23:53 GMT Subject: JULY SPECIAL OFFERS: Videocassette $2.95 Each Message-ID: <200107311323.f6VDNrX18661@dw2.danworld.net> JULY SPECIAL OFFERS: XXX Videocassette $2.95 Each >From http://100free.coolfreehost.com/ goto http://www.1stfreexxx.com ------------------------------- Get Your Own Free Mailing List! http://www.cgispy.com From NealL at mwicorp.com Tue Jul 31 10:40:14 2001 From: NealL at mwicorp.com (Neal Lang) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:40:14 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: E-mail From the Desk of Neal Lang Hi, David, Thank you for so generously allowing me more of your valuable time. >Jeez, I can't let this one go by... I thought so. "Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?" >First- I dropped that guy what-his-name from distribution because he wanted off. "A mind is a terrible thing to lose!" >Plenty of stuff on 14A by Kopel and Halbrook pointing out how 2A was integral to it, and how the incorporation doctrine flies in the face of its framers. We can speak theoretically of how it may not have been properly ratified, but it is legally recognized in the here and now, and until it is overturned or repealed, it is something the AG, as you point out, is compelled to uphold. "(B)ut it is legally recognized in the here and now" - As is "compelling state interest". I get the impression, David, that you like to "pick and choose" your principles of established law. I am afraid while you can General Ashcroft can't. >I have never claimed to be a big Marbury fan- I merely cited one important quotation from it that had relevance to the topic. That quotation could have come from Dred Scott as far as I'm concerned and it would still be true, even though the decision of that case was repellant. The problem with using Supreme Court decisions to make your points, David, is that when you cite one you really need to be prepared to defend it. Chief Justice Taney's decision in Dred Scott, for example, would not have been possible but for the political compromise that was the U.S. Constitution. (See Dave Kopel's "Dread the Dred Scott Reference" at: http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121400.shtml - for more information on citing the Supremes.) Once you have established an anti-Natural Right premise that man can be chattel, then any Court decision is possible and likely, IMMHO. >Nowhere have I ever maintained that a felon should be able to use a gun in a crime and not get punished big time. This is a misinterpretation of my arguments, as my concern was for people like you and I getting caught up in the enforcement of existing gun laws, which are and remain, as I pointed out earlier, EXISTING CIVILIAN DISARMAMENT laws. I didn't say PE WAS taking honest citizens off the street, I said that once you open the door to these kinds of laws, enforcement can reflect the policies of the administration in power, and that once you tolerate usurpations of power, important checks against abuse have been ceded. Never did I accuse you of such nonsense. I merely observed how you seemed to have no problem with "heat packing" felons. Obviously I see now that you would prefer that they must leave them home when they go to work. Possibly I mistook your passionate attack against using the existing the Federal Criminal Code's prohibiting felons from possessing firearms to mean more to you than it does. Of course this begs the question, "Can the government (Federal or State) prohibit felons from possessing firearms at all?" Exactly where do you stand, David, on the issue and why? If you agree that the State can and should, why not use such existing laws to separate these felons, who infringe on our rights, IMMHO, from society? If not, than it logically follows that you favor the right of felons to "keep and bear arms", doesn't it? If there is a third (or more possibilities), please enlighten me. Oh, sorry, you did say you wouldn't be back, didn't you? I suppose this burning question will hang there unanswered for eternity. >Yes, we must have strong laws to punish violent criminals; I merely suggest that we can do this without violating the Constitution. For starters, we can all; be safer against predators if we repeal, instead of enforce, unconstitutional gun control laws, as all they do is make it safer for the criminals to operate- isn't that superior to eroding our mutual (and as you pointed out) inalienable rights? I agree. Strong punishment for irresponsible members of society after Constitutionally acceptable "due process". Repeal all those DUMB "gun control laws" that infringe on the right of "responsible" people "to keep and bear arms". Now, that agreed, exactly where do we differ from the "gospel according to Moses"? >Personally, I think your wife OUGHT to be able to have a firearm on school grounds, and concealed on her person, While my wife at one time taught(?) infants in a Day Care School, its my daughter-in-law, who teaches in a inter-city public school, that I am most concerned about in regards to the so-called "Safe Schools Act". This Christmas I got her petite Berretta small caliber pistol for self-defence. I advised her to carry it (if possible) and worry later about "being judged by 12, instead of being carried by six". Interestingly, the Federal "Safe School Act" was properly disposed of by the Supremes (over-reaching commerce clause application instead of 2nd Amendment, but it works for me). The Florida statute cover the same issue is still in affect. However, juries and judges in Palm Beach County (believe or not), where both my daughter-in-law and I live have had enough good sense to "jury nullify" this State law in cases involving obvious self-defence situations. >and that it should be able to hold more than 10 rounds and be semiautomatic, and even be newly purchased even though it is on a federal "ban" list. Absolutely! I feel "Full Auto" (a.k.a. real "Assault Rifles" and "Trench Brooms") and "crew served" weapons are not "unreasonable", as well. After all, just how are we propose to effectively operate under a Congressionally granted "Letters of Marque and Reprisal" (U.S. Constitution - Article I Section 9 Paragraph 3) if our privately owned vessel don't "sport" privately owned "crew served" weapons? (See: http://hartungpress.com/news/columns/baldwin/letters_of_marque_clause.htm - for the 2nd Amendment implications.) >I think she ought to be able to have a gun even if she got in a fight and was convicted of misdemeanor assault. Here we might find some disagreement, as I am not so sure that certain irresponsible conduct might not limit the exercise of rights in specific cases. You seem to be ready to disconnect responsible behavior from the "right to be armed". I am not ready to go so far. I believe that a "blanket recognition" that the rkba can be suspended for persons that demonstrate irrational or irresponsible behavior is possible. This could possibly reach the level of "compelling state interest", IMMHO. Would I be upset if such laws, especially any Federal laws, should be over-turned or legislatively repeal? Most likely not. However, I believe all "Civil Rights" require a moral people to exercise them responsibly. >These are existing gun laws, and if she violates them, they can carry federal penalties. I don't want to infringe on her right to keep and bear arms, nor allow the feds to have that power, especially when the proscription against them doing this could not be more clear. Well the School thing is pretty much a State concern now. That said, I too believe in an "unalienable right to keep and bear arms" as long as it is done responsibly by responsible people. James Madison would agree with me on this, David, I think. >Can you guarantee that Project Exile can NEVER be abused to do this? I note with sadness you ignored my challenge to show evidence of government abuse in existing "Project Exile" efforts. Instead you have elected to challenge me to "prove a negative". Which, of course, is quite impossible, as I am sure you are aware. While I understand that "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance" and that the Russians (Chinese?) might in fact be coming, I do not plan on leaving work today and going home to load-up my "trusty .06" and head for the beach with my entrenching tool. Truthfully, David, I think your animosity towards "Project Exile" appears to bordering on real paranoia. You being an "inmate" of California I can possibly understand why. Can governments abuse their power, sure, it happens all the time. However, carrying this logic to YOUR CONCLUSION I guess we need to disband our armed forces because they may be (have been) "used to abuse" by our evil government. I believe a corollary (possibly posed by Sarah Brady) to your above challenge, David, might be - "If the government lets the People keep and bear arms, can you guarantee the People will NEVER abuse this right?" >If so, I will surrender on this point and shut up. I know that NRA INTENDS that PE will only affect "those people", but you have failed to demonstrate how NRA will have any say in the matter should political power shift dramatically to the Democrats. Well I truly appreciate your concession. As for the NRA having a say should the power shift, I think your efforts to undermine the NRA may be your self fulfilling prophesy (fantasy?). Keep trying to weaken the NRA and you may one day be able to say - "See, Neal, I told you so, those Socialist are in power and all our rights are history." Personally, while they may have some warts, I believe that the NRA is best and "Most Effective and Influential" game in town when it comes to protecting my "right to keep and bear arms." >And I totally reject your assertion that "my" fight (where the heck did you get THAT impression?) against Project Exile is either hopeless or useless, especially judging from the gun rights leaders who have signed the denouncement statement on keepandbeararms.com. https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=720 They represent some of the finest intellects and activists in the rkba community, and you cannot ignore them or their concerns if you hope to be either effective and innovative. Why on earth would you want to? I get the impression, David, of the "circled firing squad", actually. Even the founders where sometimes wrong, my friend. I submit as proof the Constitutional's enshrining of the institution of "slavery". I don't ignore you or them, David, and I do respect all your opinions. I just believe you (and they) have been blinded by a paranoia that might be justified, however, I see no proof of the any alleged abuses forthcoming. Can "Project Exile" be useful in our on-going struggle to "secure these rights"? Yes, I truly think so. As a matter of fact - rather than continue our dialog where I ask you questions you wont answer, and you ask me questions that no one can answer, possibly an essay extolling the virtues of "Project Exile" is in order. >Here's the problem, Neal- there ain't no light at the end of this tunnel. There will be more back-and-forth and more debating, and more time composing answers and rebuttals and counter-arguments and "gotcha's", but I don't see either one of us budging from our original stance. I suppose I could continue spending time each day on this doing point-counterpoint with you, but I don't see where it's gonna get us. It takes time away from too many other things that I have already prioritized. So I hope you understand that I need to back off of this- I think I was pretty up front about that from the start. I don't think anyone can accuse me of ducking anything, but I'd appreciate it if we could just agree to disagree on this and call a truce. Ah! David, I empathize with your problem - "So much ignorance and so little time." I guess you're right - honest and open debate never settled anything. Just look how badly those dastardly "Federalist Papers" mucked things up for us. I think the problem might just be our separate perceptions of the "glass". I see it as "half-full". While you, my friend, see it as "half-empty" (or maybe "completely empty"?). I suppose this defines the perspective of the "Classical Liberal" versus the "Libertarian". Oh Well! Such is life. I just hope you feel, as do I, that despite our disagreement, we remain friends dedicated to my grandkids' freedom. >Feel free to have the last word on this, but I just GOTTA drop this for now. "Feel free" - as in: "By your leave?" I was going to anyway, but then I guess I am "stiff-necked and ornery" as well. :-) >p.s.- not "Dave"- call it a snotty affectation on my part, but I just never cared for it...:-) Sorry, I had no idea. You should have mentioned it sooner. No offense intended. "Snotty affectation" - COOL! >p.s.s.- the following from Merrill Gibson addresses "compelling state interest"- it is on topic, and this you'll like, Neal, it defends Ashcroft's position. Merrill makes some good points- Thanks, it is indeed excellent. Not Ashcroft's position, David - the CORRECT position. >I ain't totally on board with it, but that's probably just because I'm so stiff-necked and ornery. Ah! But that is exactly why you are so loveable, IMMHO, David. Keep the Faith, Neal <<...>> Neal J. Lang (Signed) E-mail: movwater at bellsouth.net From Director at KeepAndBearArms.com Tue Jul 31 13:48:34 2001 From: Director at KeepAndBearArms.com (Angel Shamaya) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:48:34 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B66B732.6148.5432CC7@localhost> From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Tue Jul 31 14:19:02 2001 From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:19:02 -0700 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06779D@MISSERVER> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The American Rifleman article with the complete text of the John Ashcroft letter re the second amendment is in the August 2001 issue on pages 62 and 63, not the July issue. My apologies for the mix-up. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO2cgtRj6oMyeDxZoEQLiTwCeNiFXMzVKO5N9h9eZwwk+UEivIRwAoP7g AM5g1whjNGCmXdwpVe5iMGK8 =H+CZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1114 bytes Desc: not available URL: From NealL at mwicorp.com Tue Jul 31 12:34:30 2001 From: NealL at mwicorp.com (Neal Lang) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:34:30 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: ["Ah! But that is exactly why you are so loveable, IMMHO, David."] As I understand "Beloved" is the Hebrew translation of the name "David", it seems we are both in agreement on the one essential point by which all others pale: I am loveable. Peace. But Naturally! Keep the Faith, Neal (a.k.a. Cornelius - Latin for "the Horn" - Hmmm! - However I am neither "snotty" nor "affectation" enough to insist on being so called. Actually I might refuse answer to such if you did.) From alan at clueserver.org Tue Jul 31 15:43:12 2001 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Criminalizing crypto criticism In-Reply-To: <20010731165950.B386736D4A@mononoke.wasabisystems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Rick Smith at Secure Computing wrote: > There are probably enough "cryptography researchers" out there that even a > large vendor won't feel tempted to harass them all proactively. All they have to do is make a messy example out of one or two. (It also helps if you can get a prosecutor that is working on a promotion to help out.) alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "All power is derived from the barrel of a gnu." - Mao Tse Stallman From NealL at mwicorp.com Tue Jul 31 12:51:26 2001 From: NealL at mwicorp.com (Neal Lang) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: Hi, Angel, If I get real ambitious and write the definitive expose' on why "Project Exile" is the best thing for the "right to keep and bear arms" since the discovery of smokeless powder, would you have the "good sense" publish same on your site? Keep the Faith, Neal -----Original Message----- From: Angel Shamaya [SMTP:Director at KeepAndBearArms.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:19 AM To: movwater at bellsouth.net; David and Maureen Codrea Cc: Director at KeepAndBearArms.com; air.man at att.net; brian at citizensofamerica.org; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; George at Orwellian.Org; freematt at coil.com; dial911book at yahoo.com; lrrankin at silcom.com; Peter Mancus EE-mail" Subject: Re: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? From: "David and Maureen Codrea" > Date sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:35:55 -0700 > And I totally reject your assertion that "my" fight (where the heck > did you get THAT impression?) against Project Exile is either hopeless > or useless, especially judging from the gun rights leaders who have > signed the denouncement statement on keepandbeararms.com. > https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=720 > They represent some of the finest intellects and activists in the rkba > community, and you cannot ignore them or their concerns if you hope to > be either effective and innovative. Why on earth would you want to? David, use this link when sharing the Project Exile Condemnation Coalition's statement: http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/exile2 ...so it doesn't wrap to a second line. I am intrigued by the fact that NRA's Board of Coalition Builders has yet to respond to that statement; considering how many longtime dedicated leaders and proven patriots have signed it, one would think they'd have at least said "something." I guess the fact that gun rights groups whose memberships collectively represent a large segment of their own membership aren't important. Kinda reminds me of those who say we're wrong but have never taken direct exerpts and challenged them in a ready-for-publication article so they can be converted by KABAnators in private emails and then come back to us with gratitude for being patient with them while they were busy being right. By the way, Lao Tzu said, "Brevity is the root of all grace." Shamaya Longwind From colorjet at mailpromopack.net Tue Jul 31 16:24:58 2001 From: colorjet at mailpromopack.net (2for1 InkJet) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:24:58 Subject: Save 50% on Ink Jet Cartridges Message-ID: <417.493107.182241@mailpromopack.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2893 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Jul 31 16:34:33 2001 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:34:33 -0700 Subject: Spoliation, escrows, courts etc. Message-ID: <3B674089.DFD1C674@lsil.com> I think there are several actions and states mixed up here and it makes it difficult to extract the most pertinent opinions. I'm as guilty as anyone of mixing the stuff together. I'll try to be more specific this time. Let's start with the type of information the TX reporter might have. This information might be divisible into four classes : A) documents freely given by their owners B) documents of dubious provenance C) documentary works D) editorial works For information let's stick with C) and D). No real need to muddy the waters. The sense of outrage is most keen when it comes to works created by the reporter. There are a fairly small set of states to be accounted for : 1) unaware that the information could become the object of a court action 2) aware that the information could become the object of a court action 3) aware that the information was in fact the object of a court action Now my sense of right and wrong says states 1) and 2) are equivalent and that only state 3), awareness of a subpoena, is potentially relevant but our relevant pro bono guy says not. There are a few actions that are of interest i) disclosure ii) destruction iii) revocable storage of copies iv) public distribution of copies v) irrevocable storage of copies Whether it was clear or not, and despite it's being a frequent topic, I don't think anyone was all that interested in the destruction of evidence or the withholding of information, so that leaves iii), iv) and v). Another frequent element of discussions here is the ease and accuracy with which digital information can be copied and distributed but I think most would agree that iii) is not interesting legally or technically since like i) and ii) it comes down to can you conceal information or not - a plain old ordinary fight. We're really left with three states : Perception and awareness of the court's degree of interest none, potential, forceful and two actions : irrevocable storage of a copy as public or private that are interesting. Narrowed down in this way my sense of right and wrong says the author of the information can do as they choose and should not have to rely on officially approved excuses to avoid incarceration. I feel this way pretty much across the board for all types of works but for the moment let's stick with non-software items such as a reporter is likely to author. It seems as though, in the interest of justice, a court should not have the power to confiscate or suppress an author's own work. Examine it prior to publication? Possibly, but seriously debatable. Aren't there any limits or controls on the actions of the court with respect to an author? Aren't there some things that a court is simply not allowed to do and will never even attempt? Is the only recourse in the case of genuine abuse a long expensive losing battle against the forces of darkness? To allow a court to punish the publication or distribution of one's own works, even under subpoena, seems like an open invitation to abuse. Oddly, thinking about this topic has made me remember some interesting discussions with the person responsible for forcibly shutting down the radio stations, television stations and newspapers as part of a ( successful and longstanding ) coup. It's a bit scary. I don't think the power to destory^H^H^Hroy the press should be a fundamental part of the structure here. Maybe we accept the actions of a police state more peacefully when they're neatly clothed in formalities and done by baby steps but that doesn't alter their underlying nature. As with a coup, let's require full-blown military intervention to shut down the press. At least then we'll have no doubts about where we stand. Mike BTW - it will be interesting to actually find out detailed facts in the case of this TX reporter. I'm sure Jim will graciously forward a link. >Not being intimately familiar with the spec of freenet I can't really comment >on that aspect or what a court will consider "impossible." What will not >amuse a court is the appearance of an ex ante concealment or disclosure in >anticipation of court action. If it looks like you knew it was going to be a >court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble. >Not only that but if you encrypt the stuff and it doesn't appear to be >recoverable it almost sounds tantamount to destruction of evidence or >spoliation (much more serious). ("The intentional destruction of evidence... >The destruction, or the significant and meaningful alteration of a document or >instrument...") I've never seen a case play out like that but I would >certainly make the argument as a prosecutor. Encrypting the stuff sure >_looks_ like spoliation, particularly if it seemed likely that the evidence >would be the subject of a judicial action. "Knew or should have known" will >likely be the standard with respect to the stuff being the subject of judicial >action and they can use actions to demonstrate intent. In this light freenet >might be the _worst_ place to put it because its only purpose is (I believe) >to avoid censorship or seizure of the data. Why would you have used this >relatively obscure and very specialized service if not in anticipation of >court action which would later prevent the distribution of the data? Who else >was threatening the manuscript, document, etc. to such a degree to require you >to use freenet? (Not only that but spoliation carries with it the permissible >inference that the data was detrimental to you and the jury gets to hear >that). > From blancw at cnw.com Tue Jul 31 16:38:10 2001 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:38:10 -0700 Subject: Forced disclosures, document seizures, Right and Wrong. Message-ID: >From Black Unicorn: >To me the important distinction is to recognize what we want the ideal to be, >but avoid running afoul of the law in the process. --------------------------------------------- If one does recognize what the ideal is to be, and it happens to be contrary to existing law, how can running afoul of it be prevented? Are you speaking stealth, evasion, secrecy, etc., in the use of technological means, or in addition to them? .. Blanc From Alten at home.com Tue Jul 31 16:49:26 2001 From: Alten at home.com (Alex Alten) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:49:26 -0700 Subject: Fix for RC4 (was: Re: Attention CipherSaber Users!!) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20010729080204.00b96638@203.30.171.11> References: <3B62BC1E.18015.3B36DE1@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010731164926.010c2ca0@mail> Rumor has it that it does cross over the edge. - Alex At 08:09 AM 7/29/2001 +1000, Greg Rose wrote: ... > >I have always felt that folding in the key with only a single pass was a >bit "close to the edge". Note that the RC5 *key schedule* does at least >three passes! (Not strictly comparable, of course.) > ... -- Alex Alten Alten at Home.Com From declan at well.com Tue Jul 31 14:37:44 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:37:44 -0400 Subject: DOJ press conf on DNA analysis Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010731173710.02139860@mail.well.com> TUESDAY, JULY 31, 2001 (202) 514-2007 ATTORNEY GENERAL ASHCROFT TO HOLD NEWS CONFERENCE REGARDING IMPLEMENTATION OF THE DNA ANALYSIS BACKLOG ELIMINATION ACT OF 2000 WASHINGTON, D.C.-- Attorney General John Ashcroft will hold a news conference regarding the implementation of the DNA Analysis Backlog Elimination Act of 2000 TOMORROW, Wednesday, August 1st, at 12:15 p.m. in the Attorney General's conference room on the fifth floor at Main Justice. A background briefing conducted by Department staff will follow in the Public Affairs conference room on the first floor. TIME: 12:15 p.m., TOMORROW, August 1st EVENT: Attorney General News Conference PLACE: Main Justice 950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW Attorney General's Conference Room Reporters interested in attending the press conference should enter the Department through the 950 entrance on Pennsylvania Avenue, between 9th and 10th Streets, NW, no earlier than 11:15 a.m. ### From a3495 at cotse.com Tue Jul 31 15:50:13 2001 From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists Message-ID: Eugene wrote: >Unless any of you people already run such a newsticker? No point in reinventing the wheel. The best security/crypto/privacy news ticker I've seen is at http://www.infosyssec.com, a portal which bills itself as "The most comprehensive computer and network security resource on the Internet for Information System Security Professionals". If you don't feel like waiting for the ticker to scroll through, try http://www.infosyssec.com/infosyssec/infosecnews.html. If some of the the links don't work, the whole story is usually mirrored at http://www.securitynewsportal.com/. None finer, IMHO... ~Faustine. From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 19:15:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:15:29 -0700 Subject: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. In-Reply-To: <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> References: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: At 12:22 PM -0700 7/31/01, Black Unicorn wrote: >Not being intimately familiar with the spec of freenet I can't really comment >on that aspect or what a court will consider "impossible." What will not >amuse a court is the appearance of an ex ante concealment or disclosure in >anticipation of court action. If it looks like you knew it was going to be a >court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble. I think the cops will _someday_ come to rip my place apart. So? Show me exactly which law I am breaking by placing some of my documents or files in a place even I cannot "turn over all copies from." I have never heard of such a law. You talk a lot about "courts not being amused" but I can find no evidence that such laws exist. Nor can I find any case where a Mafia don was prosecuted for "spoliating" a future prosecution by whispering. Do you have such examples? And an appeals court assessment of the examples? >Not only that but if you encrypt the stuff and it doesn't appear to be >recoverable it almost sounds tantamount to destruction of evidence or >spoliation (much more serious). Cites? Remember, the hypo involves placing material in irrecoverable forms prior to any actual court case. ("The intentional destruction of evidence... >The destruction, or the significant and meaningful alteration of a document or >instrument...") I've never seen a case play out like that but I would >certainly make the argument as a prosecutor. Encrypting the stuff sure >_looks_ like spoliation, particularly if it seemed likely that the evidence >would be the subject of a judicial action. "Knew or should have known" will >likely be the standard with respect to the stuff being the subject of judicial >action and they can use actions to demonstrate intent. And I think you're way off-base. "Known or should have known" that I, for example, will eventually be raided by the TP means that it is a crime for me to place files beyond the reach of those same TP? I know you believe yourself to be a Real Lawyer. I cheerfully admit that IANAL. But I say you are full of it. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From georgemw at speakeasy.net Tue Jul 31 19:34:58 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:34:58 -0700 Subject: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. In-Reply-To: <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <3B670862.14260.69CE338@localhost> On 31 Jul 2001, at 12:22, Black Unicorn wrote: > > So it seems to me that if you, say, publish documents to freenet > > (encrypted or not) then you're ok; it's right there in the spec, > > documents cannot be removed, even by the original author. If your > > life depends on removing the document, then you die. > > How is this wrong? > > Not being intimately familiar with the spec of freenet I can't really comment > on that aspect or what a court will consider "impossible." What will not > amuse a court is the appearance of an ex ante concealment or disclosure in > anticipation of court action. If it looks like you knew it was going to be a > court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble. OK, but is there a legal distinction between ex ante disclosure in anticipation of a specific court action vs. anticipation of court action in general? I mean, if I had spent a lot of time on a particular piece of code, and the potential existed that a judge might order me to turn over all copies, I might want to take precautions against this, even if there were no particular case pending where this was likely, and the possibility itself seemed rather remote. > Not only that but if you encrypt the stuff and it doesn't appear to be > recoverable it almost sounds tantamount to destruction of evidence or > spoliation (much more serious). Just to clarify, I suggested possibly encrypting it just because I might not want it leaking without my consent. I wouldn't expect a judge to be dumb enough to buy the argument that "I just can't remember that damn key, but I probably will once this trial is over". > "Knew or should have known" will > likely be the standard with respect to the stuff being the subject of judicial > action and they can use actions to demonstrate intent. In this light freenet > might be the _worst_ place to put it because its only purpose is (I believe) > to avoid censorship or seizure of the data. Why would you have used this > relatively obscure and very specialized service if not in anticipation of > court action which would later prevent the distribution of the data? Who else > was threatening the manuscript, document, etc. to such a degree to require you > to use freenet? It's not THAT obscure. If i were in the habit of putting all my source code on freenet, the argument that I must have put a particular piece of it on freenet to avoid complying with a legitimate judicial order seems to me to be pretty weak. What I'm concerned with here is the possibility (which I consider monstrous) that a judge might be able to force me to surrender ALL copies of my work, leaving me incapable of accessing it. I fully understand that there's no way I can get a judge to accept the claim that I can't give him A copy of my work, even though I can still access it myself. > (Not only that but spoliation carries with it the permissible > inference that the data was detrimental to you and the jury gets to hear > that). > Thanks, I'll remember that, it could come in handy some day. > I'm not sure there are many arguments for using freenet other than > "I knew you pigs were going to try and grab it so I sent it far, far away." > "Knew" is too strong a word in this case, "suspected" or "feared" would be more accurate. And even I know better than to refer to a judge as a "pig" in his own courtroom. In the immortal words of Mae West, "No your honor, I'm doing my best to conceal it." George From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 19:52:28 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:52:28 -0700 Subject: Spoliation, escrows, courts, pigs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:35 PM -0500 7/31/01, Aimee Farr wrote: >in another thread, either the one dealing with timed-key memoirs (Tim called >this a "beacon") or logs, but the conversation was soon whittled to dribble. "drivel" >Which is the idea expressed the following paper, but "Tim May said..." (Mr. >May inferred this was an old idea, and that it was better to use traditional >means.) "implied," not "inferred." Actually, I didn't "imply" it was an old idea, I _said_ it was an old idea. Seeing all you high-power lawyers here humbles me. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From air.man at att.net Tue Jul 31 13:56:03 2001 From: air.man at att.net (air.man at att.net) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:56:03 +0000 Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this; General Ashcroft m ake his move Message-ID: <20010731205604.OGNG12706.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> How long do you think NRA management's "Winning" Team could continue suckering gun rights supporters into sending them $200 MILLION a year if they came out and frontally assaulted the right to keep and bear arms, rather than gradually undermining it while appearing to fight the good fight? I wish you were right. I wish it was just incompetence. Russ Howard www.keepandbeararms.com/howard > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I don't have the magazine in front of me, but if you'd like, I could > scan the page and send you a JPEG or something like that of it. I > don't think the NRA is as good a defender of the Second Amendment as > it could be, and ditto with John Ashcroft, but at least they aren't > trying to totally nuke our freedoms like Clinton, Janet Reno & > Handgun Control Incorporated. > > Jonathan Wienke > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Stevens [mailto:dial911book at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM > To: Jonathan Wienke; freematt at coil.com > Cc: George at Orwellian.Org; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; > Director at KeepAndBearArms.com; air.man at att.net; > brian at citizensofamerica.org > Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft > make his move > > > - --- Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > > > I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July > > issue also has > > an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not > > quote the rather > > lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible > > image of BOTH > > pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of > > the footnote. This > > is hardly the action of an organization bent on > > distorting Ashcroft's > > view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the > > part of the > > America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an > > organization-wide > > conspiracy. > > > > Jonathan Wienke > > > > Mr. Wienke, > > I paged through the entire July 2001 issue of American > Rifleman, and maybe I'm just blind as the proverbial > bat, but I don't see the article to which you refer > that quotes the entire Ashcroft letter. On what page > is it? > > The July 2001 issue of First Freedom is the one > featuring the Ashcroft letter -- that I have received > thus far. > > On the point you raise: maybe it was merely a bad > editorial decision for the one magazine. Fine, and we > can forgive that. But, ask this question: in what > kind of workplace environment could this kind of > editing decision be made? > > Remember that more than one editor had to approve the > final copy. This is not just a typo. More than one > person had to consciously decide to omit relevant > material without telling the reader. > > I have to wonder if other sorts of "editing decisions" > that massage the facts and distort the truth are being > made ... and we readers don't know it. > > Maybe it was entirely innocent. Then NRA should > promptly apologize, correct it and publish the full > text in the following issue. Let's see if they do. > > - --Richard Stevens > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use > > iQA/AwUBO2YCRxj6oMyeDxZoEQIcBgCfd2QPu23wfwj56en49EF9Aoou6OsAoJdJ > PLKWKsFtG76jnEqK2G6sGBZA > =xyd4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jsimmons at transvirtual.com Tue Jul 31 21:14:41 2001 From: jsimmons at transvirtual.com (James Simmons) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] DMCA loop hole Message-ID: Sorry this is off topic but this was way to good :-) Virus writers can use the DMCA in a perverse way. Because computer viruses are programs, they can be copyrighted just like a book, song, or movie. If a virus writer were to use encryption to hide the code of a virus, an anti-virus company could be forbidden by the DMCA to see how the virus works without first getting the permission of the virus writer. If they didn't, a virus writer could sue the anti-virus company under the DMCA! [snip] - ----- End forwarded message ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO2e1qxj6oMyeDxZoEQISbACeNXywQ+K5UGwSRjW9IK54HmQ+meoAnRs4 a115/sRQP86IFDbGQjDN1udu =8ZUs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jsimmons at transvirtual.com Tue Jul 31 21:14:41 2001 From: jsimmons at transvirtual.com (James Simmons) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] DMCA loop hole Message-ID: Sorry this is off topic but this was way to good :-) Virus writers can use the DMCA in a perverse way. Because computer viruses are programs, they can be copyrighted just like a book, song, or movie. If a virus writer were to use encryption to hide the code of a virus, an anti-virus company could be forbidden by the DMCA to see how the virus works without first getting the permission of the virus writer. If they didn't, a virus writer could sue the anti-virus company under the DMCA! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessary a good idea. [ Alexander Viro on linux-kernel ] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo at vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." From aimee.farr at pobox.com Tue Jul 31 19:35:25 2001 From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: Spoliation, escrows, courts, pigs. Was: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas In-Reply-To: <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: Unicorn wrote: > Not being intimately familiar with the spec of freenet I can't > really comment > on that aspect or what a court will consider "impossible." What will not > amuse a court is the appearance of an ex ante concealment or disclosure in > anticipation of court action. If it looks like you knew it was > going to be a > court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble. > Not only that but if you encrypt the stuff and it doesn't appear to be > recoverable it almost sounds tantamount to destruction of evidence or > spoliation (much more serious). ("The intentional destruction of > evidence... > The destruction, or the significant and meaningful alteration of > a document or > instrument...") I've never seen a case play out like that but I would > certainly make the argument as a prosecutor. I think the courts will reach for spoliation, too. (Sanctions, penalties, legal presumptions -- all the way to a default judgment.) I brought this up in another thread, either the one dealing with timed-key memoirs (Tim called this a "beacon") or logs, but the conversation was soon whittled to dribble. > There are legitimate purposes for escrowing it on the Isle of Man over and > above keeping it out of a court's hands. The key is to have _some_ leg to > stand on when asked "if not trying to thwart the authority of > this court, why > did you do that." Good answers might sound like: "I wanted the > proceeds of > the manuscripts sale protected in trust for my grandchildren." *gaf* :-) In another digital datahaven (not Freenet), security and anonymity are legitimate purposes standing by themselves. As you noted, the one-time involvement of offshore counsel suggests sophistication. Do any of the IAALs think the courts would recognize a written, good faith "datahavening" policy (for business), or a consistent personal practice (for individuals), and engage in the legal fiction of permissible destruction by unavailability? Seems like that is the rationale underlying the spoliation cases - consistency and good faith (legitimacy). D: "I datahaven (however you do it) with X all my [data] weekly as a matter of regular practice." D: "I did so prior to having any knowledge of the relevance of this data or the likelihood of litigation." (nor should I have) X: "X is a digital information privacy trust, managed by Y, allowing individuals to datahaven their personal papers for posterity and WorldGood -- for the benefit of future researchers, and their blood descendants. Clients include members of the United States Congress, world political figures, members of the intelligence community, journalists, human rights activists, and everyday individual diary-keepers." X: "X uses timed encryption and biometric identification." (Sorry, no passwords.) Which is the idea expressed the following paper, but "Tim May said..." (Mr. May inferred this was an old idea, and that it was better to use traditional means.) @ http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=266153 (some discussion of the erosion of the 4th and 5th Amendments in regard to the protection of personal papers, as well as contemporary commentary on the chilling effects of keeping personal diaries, "flammable materials," etc.) I am also reminded of those e-death comz (if they aren't dead themselves by now). You compose your goodbye email, and when your nominee notifies the company of death --- everybody finds out what you really thought of them. The hard part is coming up with "good faith" arguments. (I know Mr. Unicorn was speaking off the cuff -- and still came up with some really good ones. No doubt he could do better.) Still, posterity would seem to be a weighty argument, and a sincere one. ~Aimee From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 21:36:27 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:36:27 -0700 Subject: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists References: Message-ID: <002001c11a44$80162dc0$00010a0a@thinkpad574> Oh great. Now every news story on this thing will be echoed by Mr. Choate directly to the list without any introductory commentary. Don't you see how this stuff backfires? Ugh. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Faustine" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Pointers to news sources and other mailing lists > Eugene wrote: > > >Unless any of you people already run such a newsticker? No point in > reinventing the wheel. > > The best security/crypto/privacy news ticker I've seen is at > http://www.infosyssec.com, a portal which bills itself as "The most > comprehensive computer and network security resource on the Internet for > Information System Security Professionals". If you don't feel like waiting > for the ticker to scroll through, try > http://www.infosyssec.com/infosyssec/infosecnews.html. > > If some of the the links don't work, the whole story is usually mirrored at > http://www.securitynewsportal.com/. > > None finer, IMHO... > > ~Faustine. > From moscowworkshops at email.com Tue Jul 31 11:13:17 2001 From: moscowworkshops at email.com (MOSCOW WORKSHOPS) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:13:17 +0400 Subject: Increase business with wealthy Russian clients Message-ID: <200107311837.f6VIbMr29778@addr21.addr.com> MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL WINTER WORKSHOP 06 September 2001 The Russian travel market continues to expand with many destinations posting increases of more than 15% this summer. The Russian Travel market is a lucrative market and the Travel Companies are looking for new offers for their clients. Doing business with Russia is often perceived of being difficult and complicated but this is not true. The Russian Travel companies are better organised, payments are always made on time and the clients enjoy spending and are generous to staff. The Moscow International Winter Workshop will take place in Moscow on September 6th and is the best opportunity to meet with the Russian Travel Trade as they prepare their winter programs. Strategically planned 6 weeks prior to the winter exhibition participation at the Workshop will ensure that your offers are included in the Russian travel companies winter programs. Winter Sun. 40% of all Vacations booked are during the winter season. Wealthy Russian clients are looking for exotic destinations, warmth, attractions and activities. Business Travel. Russian business people are prolific travellers. 64% of the Russian companies travel on business up to 10 times a year and 29% take between 10 and 50 trips a year! Meetings & Incentives. 28% of Russian companies organised Incentive Tours and more than a quarter organise International Meetings & Incentives. More than half book these travel arrangements through Travel Agents. Skiing. Russians are keen skiers and are always looking for special accommodation and new ski destinations. Summer 2002. Many Russian companies are starting to plan their next summer programs much earlier than in the past. Contact with Travel Companies in September will ensure your position for next summer. The Moscow international Workshop on September 6th, is THE event to make contact with the Russian Travel Trade. Please contact us for more details. MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL WINTER WORKSHOP www.MoscowWorkshop.com We do apologise if we have contacted you in error. Please use the delete link if you wish to be removed from this list. Please delete. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3534 bytes Desc: not available URL: From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 22:19:06 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:19:06 -0700 Subject: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. References: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <002501c11a49$7e78b820$00010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. > At 12:22 PM -0700 7/31/01, Black Unicorn wrote: > > >Not being intimately familiar with the spec of freenet I can't really comment > >on that aspect or what a court will consider "impossible." What will not > >amuse a court is the appearance of an ex ante concealment or disclosure in > >anticipation of court action. If it looks like you knew it was going to be a > >court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble. > > I think the cops will _someday_ come to rip my place apart. So? Hardly "knew or should have known" unless... well Mr. May you'll know better than I will how naughty you've been. > Show me exactly which law I am breaking by placing some of my > documents or files in a place even I cannot "turn over all copies > from." > > I have never heard of such a law. If you know you've committed some kind of weapons violations or some such and you have reason to believe you have come to the attention of the authorities, burning the record of those bulk AK-74 purchases might be a bad idea- if you got caught. I've seen more of this in the white collar world, where billing records, transaction records and such were destroyed but the principal holds. Still, based on what you seem to have read me as saying we probably lost a good deal of the context of the discussion. The original question, as I understood it, was what an individual who was faced with a clearly pending court action (or an existing court order) could to do frustrate that order and prevent certain materials from being distributed- _without consequences_. My discussion was limited to that context, though I did not probably clarify that sufficiently. I also made some speculative suggestions about what encrypting such data might look like in a test case extending the facts to be a bit more edgy just to see where the limits were. Such a test case (of which there are none to my knowledge) would easily present a close issue to argue if a savvy prosecutor were around. I'm not sure anyone could tell how it would come out. Consider it a cautionary note for cypherpunks designing evidence destroying (concealing, whatever) systems. I never asserted a the kind of law you describe above existed. A careful re-reading of my post will reflect that. > You talk a lot about "courts not being amused" but I can find no > evidence that such laws exist. Nor can I find any case where a Mafia > don was prosecuted for "spoliation" a future prosecution by > whispering. Spoliation is usually used in specific reference to evidence, not a case or prosecution. Again, I think the context got lost after my fifth post on the subject or so. > Do you have such examples? And an appeals court assessment of the examples? I could cite any number of obstruction and contempt examples, two from personal experience. One in which the defendant wished to prevent the disclosure of certain financial documents and other information to the court, all of which were secreted away before any proceedings began, but when it was clear the improprieties were going to come to light. One in which the defendant wished to disclose certain information (for not in my view the most kosher reasons) to the public which was the subject of a case and also the subject of a judicial gag order. Both efforts landed both defendants in confinement for a period of time- both times on contempt rulings. I can cite some case law if you really want or if there is some legitimate need for more clarification, but we are a bit far afield of the original discussion now, and that was not intended to allege anything close to the kind of prohibition you seem to be talking about. > >Not only that but if you encrypt the stuff and it doesn't appear to be > >recoverable it almost sounds tantamount to destruction of evidence or > >spoliation (much more serious). > > Cites? I don't have any. This was my theory. Hence my language: "It almost sounds tantamount..." Hence my cite of the definition of spoliation below, for comparison. Hence my discussion of a prosecutor's likely tactic in making the argument. Encrypting to an "irrecoverable" key certainly comes close to if not outright meets the technical definition of spoliation in Black's Law Dictionary. What "irrecoverable" means will depend on the judge probably. > Remember, the hypo involves placing material in irrecoverable forms > prior to any actual court case. Well, that's not the hypo I remember but in any event the case doesn't need to have been called, the defendant merely needed to "know or should have known" that the material in question was likely to be the subject of a legal proceeding or material evidence to same. (Given that some states might have different standards- this is pretty close to what you can expect generally). The burden of proving that aside, that's the standard. Burning the offshore account statements on the morn before your indictment for bank fraud is going to get you a spoliation/destruction of evidence charge. Encrypting the statements to some (unrecoverable?) key looks very much like the same thing, doesn't it? The effect to the court is certainly the same. Again, if I were a prosecutor I would at least make this argument. Its success would probably be 100% dependent on how much cotton the judge has in his ears at that particular moment, how badly he wanted to get out of court and meet the call girl he just reserved (ever wonder why Friday's are always "motion days"?) and how "unamused" he is with the defendant. I talk a lot about how "not amused" a court is because, frankly, that has a substantial impact on the way rulings go. At least in my experience judges are very unlikely to be receptive to motions by a defendant that has pissed them off. > ("The intentional destruction of evidence... > >The destruction, or the significant and meaningful alteration of a document or > >instrument...") I've never seen a case play out like that but I would > >certainly make the argument as a prosecutor. Encrypting the stuff sure > >_looks_ like spoliation, particularly if it seemed likely that the evidence > >would be the subject of a judicial action. "Knew or should have known" will > >likely be the standard with respect to the stuff being the subject of judicial > >action and they can use actions to demonstrate intent. > > And I think you're way off-base. "Known or should have known" that I, > for example, will eventually be raided by the TP means that it is a > crime for me to place files beyond the reach of those same TP? (Sorry- TP?) Absolutely. If you know that something is or will be evidence to a crime and you destroy it knowing full well that a judicial proceeding is imminent, or knowing that an investigation is being considered, you've committed a felony in most states. It wouldn't take much effort for you to look up the California statute on destruction of evidence or spoliation. > I know you believe yourself to be a Real Lawyer. I cheerfully admit that IANAL. Depends on your definition of "real lawyer." I hold the degree. I'm licensed to practice somewhere or another. I've probably made 15 or more motions before courts in various proceedings in various jurisdictions. I don't practice anymore so perhaps that disqualifies me. Still, all of this is academic- just as this discussion is. My qualifications are irrelevant. You got my opinion for free. I think I can fairly say you got more than you paid for. Look up the statutes for yourself. > But I say you are full of it. Keeping to the contextual caveats above- I reassert my position. You can't simply knowingly deny a court access to evidence or testimony and not expect to get bit. Hard. > --Tim May From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Jul 31 22:22:59 2001 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:22:59 -0700 Subject: Spoliation, escrows, courts, pigs. References: Message-ID: <003501c11a4a$0952d4d0$00010a0a@thinkpad574> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:52 PM Subject: RE: Spoliation, escrows, courts, pigs. > Seeing all you high-power lawyers here humbles me. Even when your grumpy, Mr. May, sometimes you just make me smile despite myself. From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Jul 31 22:38:46 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:38:46 -0700 Subject: How would this work? Would it work at all? [jsimmons@transvirtual.com: [OT] DMCA loop hole] Message-ID: <20010731223846.B24124@neutraldomain.org> How plausible would this idea be? --gabe -- "It's not brave, if you're not scared." [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type message/rfc822] From drevil at sidereal.kz Tue Jul 31 15:51:44 2001 From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil) Date: 31 Jul 2001 22:51:44 -0000 Subject: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. Was: Re: DOJ jails reporter, Ashcroft allows more journalist subpoenas In-Reply-To: <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> (unicorn@schloss.li) References: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: <20010731225144.5724.qmail@sidereal.kz> > There are legitimate purposes for escrowing it on the Isle of Man > over and above keeping it out of a court's hands. The key is to > have _some_ leg to stand on when asked "if not trying to thwart the > authority of this court, why did you do that." Good answers might > sound like: "I wanted the proceeds of the manuscripts sale protected > in trust for my grandchildren." "I wanted the negotiations to be > handled by the same attorney that manages my spendthrift trust" (You > do have one, right?) "I wanted to publish it anonymously, and > needed a good attorney in a jurisdiction with strong confidentiality > statutes to accomplish that end. I had no idea that the irrevocable > trust was so far reaching that it would deny access to a legitimate > judicial proceeding, your honor..." I'm not sure there are many > arguments for using freenet other than "I knew you pigs were going > to try and grab it so I sent it far, far away." Some reasonable legal advice on the c'punk list! Amazing! M. Unicorn, I could sugest a few valid reasons for posting it on freenet: "Your honor, freenet is a system which backs up data on multiple servers. I thought the document was extremely important, and that was the most reasonable way I could find to ensure that it is not lost." "Your honor, this document describes the situation in Tibet/democracy in Taiwan/Falun Gong, and I wanted to make it available to the citizens of China, and Freenet seemed like the most reasonable way." "I wanted to publish it. Freenet is an alternative to using a more expensive or difficult web server." Would some of these be convincing to a judge? Btw, if the defendant had any reason to believe that the document might soon be the subject of a court proceeding, and he then placed it out of his control in a trust, he would be in just as much trouble as if he had used any c'punk methods. It would be called a "fradulent conveyance", right? From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 23:19:18 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:19:18 -0700 Subject: Spoilation, escrows, courts, pigs. In-Reply-To: <002501c11a49$7e78b820$00010a0a@thinkpad574> References: <3B66809A.6842.48A7CE7@localhost> <003c01c119f6$1d0439f0$2d010a0a@thinkpad574> <002501c11a49$7e78b820$00010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: At 10:19 PM -0700 7/31/01, Black Unicorn wrote: >> Show me exactly which law I am breaking by placing some of my >> documents or files in a place even I cannot "turn over all copies >> from." >> >> I have never heard of such a law. > >If you know you've committed some kind of weapons violations or some such and >you have reason to believe you have come to the attention of the authorities, >burning the record of those bulk AK-74 purchases might be a bad idea- if you >got caught. Show me the cites. I commit felonies on a weekly, even daily, basis. > >I've seen more of this in the white collar world, where billing records, >transaction records and such were destroyed but the principal holds. IBM instructed employees to destroy records. At Intel, we destroyed records--I did so as part of the "Crush" program (to drive several competitors out of business). So long as we were not being ordered to turn over evidence, not any kind of crime. A bookstore is not "spoliating" for failing to keep records of who bought which books. Cop: "We have a court order requiring you to turn over all records concerning who bought the book "Applied Cryptography."" Store: "We don't keep records." Cop: "Why not?" Store: "None of your business." (Interjection by Black Unicorn: "The court is not amused.") Cop: "We could charge you with spoliation!" Store: "Go right ahead." (Interjection by Black Unicorn: "It's not nice to fool with Mr. Happy Fun Court.") > >Still, based on what you seem to have read me as saying we probably lost a >good deal of the context of the discussion. The original question, as I >understood it, was what an individual who was faced with a clearly pending >court action (or an existing court order) could to do frustrate that order and >prevent certain materials from being distributed- _without consequences_. >My discussion was limited to that context, though I did not probably clarify >that sufficiently. The discussion included claims that those who use remailers, or who run remailers, may be guilty of spoliation. And it included comments that using offshore/unreachable methods if one ever expects to be charged is spoliation. I say this is bullshit. By your vague (no plausible cites, just some 1L literatlisms), whispering is spoliation. Failure to archive tape recordings of conversations is spoliation. Use of encryption is spoliation. Drawing the curtains is spoliation. >I can cite some case law if you really want or if there is some legitimate >need for more clarification, but we are a bit far afield of the original >discussion now, and that was not intended to allege anything close to the kind >of prohibition you seem to be talking about. But you said, more than once, "If it looks like you knew it was going to be a court issue and you put it on freenet for that purpose, you're in trouble." And why would it be a crime for John Gotti to make his communications inaccessible or irretrievable or unrecallable? How aboutL "If it looks like you knew it was going to be a court issue and you whispered so that the FBI could not understand your words , you're in trouble."? Isn't this spoliation by your broad standards? >> Cites? > >I don't have any. This was my theory. Hence my language: "It almost sounds >tantamount..." Hence my cite of the definition of spoliation below, for >comparison. Hence my discussion of a prosecutor's likely tactic in making the >argument. Encrypting to an "irrecoverable" key certainly comes close to if >not outright meets the technical definition of spoliation in Black's Law >Dictionary. What "irrecoverable" means will depend on the judge probably. But, Black Unicorn, you're the one who chose to lecture all the children here. I have asked for a cite that shows that higher courts, up to the Supreme Court, have held that using Freenet or encryption would constitute spoliation, which you brought into the discussion as a reason why Cypherpunks had better not count on using encryption, or offshore storage, or any other means that might cause the court to "not be amused." They didn't get John Gotti for whispering, so I doubt "spoliation" is nearly the tool you and Aimee Farr seem to think it is. >> Remember, the hypo involves placing material in irrecoverable forms >> prior to any actual court case. > >Well, that's not the hypo I remember but in any event the case doesn't need to >have been called, the defendant merely needed to "know or should have known" >that the material in question was likely to be the subject of a legal >proceeding or material evidence to same. John Gotti "knew or should have known" that prosecutors would have loved to have had his tape-recorded conversations. Was he then obligated by "spoliation" standards to have neatly archived them or could he re-use his answering machine tapes the way everyone else does/ (Again, he is not in Marion for spoliation.) And so on. I could give a dozen examples off-hand of cases where records were not kept, where whispering or coded messages were used. No prosecutions on spoliation that I know of. Cites from you? >Depends on your definition of "real lawyer." I hold the degree. I'm licensed >to practice somewhere or another. I've probably made 15 or more motions >before courts in various proceedings in various jurisdictions. I don't >practice anymore so perhaps that disqualifies me. Still, all of this is >academic- just as this discussion is. My qualifications are irrelevant. You >got my opinion for free. I think I can fairly say you got more than you paid >for. Look up the statutes for yourself. I'm asking for some cites that your broad interpretation, which you have even extended to saying that remailer operators may be running afoul of the spoliation law merely for not keeping records of who used their services, is at all in the ballpark of plausibility. A person under indictment or called as a witness who throws a gun into a river, or who burns diaries, may be said to be tampering with or destroying evidence. Maybe "spoliation" is the Black's Law term. Who cares? But this is a far cry from saying that anyone "who knows or has reason to expect" that he will someday be charged with some crime is committing spoliation by using remailers, offshore accounts,whispering, using secure phone lines, etc. Saying I should "look up the statute" is a cop-out. In fact, I did some Findlaw searches and found nothing to support your broad claim that using a remailer or an offshore storage site exposes one to spoliation charges. In the real world, that is, not the 1L simplicities of reading statutes overly literally. If you're going to try to scare remailer operators with the claim that they may already be violating the spoliation laws, at least provide some strong evidence. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Tue Jul 31 23:24:29 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:24:29 -0700 Subject: Spoliation, escrows, courts, pigs. In-Reply-To: <003501c11a4a$0952d4d0$00010a0a@thinkpad574> References: <003501c11a4a$0952d4d0$00010a0a@thinkpad574> Message-ID: At 10:22 PM -0700 7/31/01, Black Unicorn wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim May" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:52 PM >Subject: RE: Spoliation, escrows, courts, pigs. > >> Seeing all you high-power lawyers here humbles me. > >Even when your grumpy, Mr. May, sometimes you just make me smile despite >myself. I'm not grumpy. I rankle at seeing you in this "princely lecturing" mode, telling all the children what a fine lawyer you are and how foolish we all are. --Tim -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From grocha at neutraldomain.org Tue Jul 31 23:24:56 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:24:56 -0700 Subject: Trying again...[jsimmons@transvirtual.com: [OT] DMCA loop hole] Message-ID: <20010731232456.A26735@neutraldomain.org> ok, let me try this again... sorry about that. --gabe ----- Forwarded message from James Simmons ----- From air.man at att.net Tue Jul 31 16:56:17 2001 From: air.man at att.net (air.man at att.net) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:56:17 +0000 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <20010731235617.RFBB15499.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Hmm. Let me get this straight. Project Gulag is the best thing for RKBA since, what was it, I don't know, the Nazi Gun Control Act of 1938? ENFORCE ALL EXISTING GUN LAWS WITH ZERO TOLERANCE. That's the core Project Gulag mantra, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to predict that the overt enemy, HCI et al., would accept it with open arms, make it their own program, and run with it. Why do you think NRA now holds press conferences with HCI to support it? Do you really think the anti-gunners are that stupid? Sometimes the "Winning" Team adds a mumble or two about aiming Project Gulag against "criminals." Well what the hell do you think most of us already are who refuse to comply with those existing gun laws we tried to stop from being enacted in the first place? And don't tell me NRA management's "Winning" Team gives a rat's ass about putting potential felons like me and most other gun rights activists in prison. That's why their infomercial says "then he did what any decent, law- abiding citizen would do, and turned in his guns." That quote reveals the mindset of NRA's "Winning" Team management. It's a pro-police-state, authority worshipping team. If Feinstein passes a law, they expect you to obey it. And if you don't, they'll help send you up the river right along with the murderers, convenience store robbers, serial rapists, and child molesters. All you have to do is get caught ignoring an existing gun law, or a new one. I wish it was just incompetence, but it's not. And I wish I didn't know about it. Life was happier when I could believe NRA was run by more or less well- intentioned, if not totally competent people. But it isn't, and having served on the board, I bear the burden of first hand knowledge. It's not pleasant to have to tell grown men there's no gun rights tooth fairy. Too many folks are compelled by nature to believe that everything NRA does is by definition right, and if it doesn't appear to be right, than somehow it must be part of a diabolically good plan hatched by masterminds that'll work out for us in the end. I was once one of those folks, and I'm here to urge you to get over it. Do the movement a favor; cut the tribalistic worship routine and stop treating NRA like a sacred cow, immutable in nature. It's not. It's run by real people, increasingly those who are helping destroy our heritage of freedom. There's a Wizard of Oz behind the drapes, and he's not on our side. Yes, most of us need something to believe in. But the NRA is important only because of the good or harm it can do to our heritage. Loyalty to the Constitution is vastly more important than blind loyalty to the NRA. And being loyal to the rightful mission of the NRA, which I am, has long been dangerously inconsistent with blind loyalty to NRA management, especially the current "Winning" Team Junta. Russ Howard www.keepandbeararms.com/howard > From: Neal Lang > Subject: RE: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? > Date sent: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:51:26 -0400 > > > Hi, Angel, > > > > If I get real ambitious and write the definitive expose' on why > > "Project Exile" is the best thing for the "right to keep and bear > > arms" since the discovery of smokeless powder, would you have the > > "good sense" publish same on your site? > > > > Keep the Faith, > > > > Neal > > > Sure. If you don't mind publishing your eddress so I don't have to > invest hours on end listening to people shotgun your false > assumptions, oversights and miscalcualtions. :-) > > Knock yourself out. Stick it here: > https://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNPAdd.asp > > Better yet, and much preferred, be the first to challenge exact excerpts > from the Project Exile Condemnation Coalition's statement -- so you > can heal us poor, misguided fools of our afflictions: > http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/exile2 > > Shamaya Smartaleck > > > From air.man at att.net Tue Jul 31 16:58:34 2001 From: air.man at att.net (air.man at att.net) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:58:34 +0000 Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft m ake his move Message-ID: <20010731235834.TOQZ18077.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Oops. Forgot to cc this: How long do you think NRA management's "Winning" Team could continue suckering gun rights supporters into sending them $200 MILLION a year if they came out and frontally assaulted the right to keep and bear arms, rather than gradually undermining it while appearing to fight the good fight? I wish you were right. I wish it was just incompetence. Russ Howard www.keepandbeararms.com/howard > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I don't have the magazine in front of me, but if you'd like, I could > scan the page and send you a JPEG or something like that of it. I > don't think the NRA is as good a defender of the Second Amendment as > it could be, and ditto with John Ashcroft, but at least they aren't > trying to totally nuke our freedoms like Clinton, Janet Reno & > Handgun Control Incorporated. > > Jonathan Wienke > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Stevens [mailto:dial911book at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM > To: Jonathan Wienke; freematt at coil.com > Cc: George at Orwellian.Org; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; > Director at KeepAndBearArms.com; air.man at att.net; > brian at citizensofamerica.org > Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft > make his move > > > - --- Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > > > I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July > > issue also has > > an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not > > quote the rather > > lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible > > image of BOTH > > pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of > > the footnote. This > > is hardly the action of an organization bent on > > distorting Ashcroft's > > view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the > > part of the > > America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an > > organization-wide > > conspiracy. > > > > Jonathan Wienke > > > > Mr. Wienke, > > I paged through the entire July 2001 issue of American > Rifleman, and maybe I'm just blind as the proverbial > bat, but I don't see the article to which you refer > that quotes the entire Ashcroft letter. On what page > is it? > > The July 2001 issue of First Freedom is the one > featuring the Ashcroft letter -- that I have received > thus far. > > On the point you raise: maybe it was merely a bad > editorial decision for the one magazine. Fine, and we > can forgive that. But, ask this question: in what > kind of workplace environment could this kind of > editing decision be made? > > Remember that more than one editor had to approve the > final copy. This is not just a typo. More than one > person had to consciously decide to omit relevant > material without telling the reader. > > I have to wonder if other sorts of "editing decisions" > that massage the facts and distort the truth are being > made ... and we readers don't know it. > > Maybe it was entirely innocent. Then NRA should > promptly apologize, correct it and publish the full > text in the following issue. Let's see if they do. > > - --Richard Stevens > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use > > iQA/AwUBO2YCRxj6oMyeDxZoEQIcBgCfd2QPu23wfwj56en49EF9Aoou6OsAoJdJ > PLKWKsFtG76jnEqK2G6sGBZA > =xyd4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From air.man at att.net Tue Jul 31 16:59:25 2001 From: air.man at att.net (air.man at att.net) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:59:25 +0000 Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft m ake his move Message-ID: <20010731235926.RGUG15499.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Oops. Forgot to cc this. How long do you think NRA management's "Winning" Team could continue suckering gun rights supporters into sending them $200 MILLION a year if they came out and frontally assaulted the right to keep and bear arms, rather than gradually undermining it while appearing to fight the good fight? I wish you were right. I wish it was just incompetence. Russ Howard www.keepandbeararms.com/howard > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I don't have the magazine in front of me, but if you'd like, I could > scan the page and send you a JPEG or something like that of it. I > don't think the NRA is as good a defender of the Second Amendment as > it could be, and ditto with John Ashcroft, but at least they aren't > trying to totally nuke our freedoms like Clinton, Janet Reno & > Handgun Control Incorporated. > > Jonathan Wienke > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Stevens [mailto:dial911book at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM > To: Jonathan Wienke; freematt at coil.com > Cc: George at Orwellian.Org; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; > Director at KeepAndBearArms.com; air.man at att.net; > brian at citizensofamerica.org > Subject: Mr. Wienke, help me out on this -- Re: FW: General Ashcroft > make his move > > > - --- Jonathan Wienke wrote: > > > > I get the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. The July > > issue also has > > an article about Ashcroft's letter, which does not > > quote the rather > > lengthy footnote. However, it does contain a legible > > image of BOTH > > pages of the letter, including the ENTIRE text of > > the footnote. This > > is hardly the action of an organization bent on > > distorting Ashcroft's > > view on the Second Amendment. Stupid editing on the > > part of the > > America's First Freedom team, perhaps, but not an > > organization-wide > > conspiracy. > > > > Jonathan Wienke > > > > Mr. Wienke, > > I paged through the entire July 2001 issue of American > Rifleman, and maybe I'm just blind as the proverbial > bat, but I don't see the article to which you refer > that quotes the entire Ashcroft letter. On what page > is it? > > The July 2001 issue of First Freedom is the one > featuring the Ashcroft letter -- that I have received > thus far. > > On the point you raise: maybe it was merely a bad > editorial decision for the one magazine. Fine, and we > can forgive that. But, ask this question: in what > kind of workplace environment could this kind of > editing decision be made? > > Remember that more than one editor had to approve the > final copy. This is not just a typo. More than one > person had to consciously decide to omit relevant > material without telling the reader. > > I have to wonder if other sorts of "editing decisions" > that massage the facts and distort the truth are being > made ... and we readers don't know it. > > Maybe it was entirely innocent. Then NRA should > promptly apologize, correct it and publish the full > text in the following issue. Let's see if they do. > > - --Richard Stevens > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use > > iQA/AwUBO2YCRxj6oMyeDxZoEQIcBgCfd2QPu23wfwj56en49EF9Aoou6OsAoJdJ > PLKWKsFtG76jnEqK2G6sGBZA > =xyd4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at dizum.com Tue Jul 31 15:10:17 2001 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 00:10:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Book Review: The Trial of Henry Kissinger Message-ID: "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens ISBN 1-85984-631-9 It is commonly stated on this list that the term "terrorism" is selectively used. The enemies of the United States Government are "terrorists" and its friends "freedom fighters." Nobody who reads this book can doubt this belief, except to observe that many (even most?) labelled "terrorist" are not terrorists at all. They are nothing more than dissidents. Hitchens persuasively argues that Henry Kissinger is documentably guilty of a variety of prosecutable crimes. Both war crimes and crimes which are fully covered by existing U.S. law are listed. The book has a fair amount of information about the Nixon and Ford administrations which will probably be new to most readers. Kissinger wielded more power than many may realize, as he chaired something called the "40 Committee" from 1969 to 1976. The "40 Committee", whose name has changed repeatedly over the years, oversaw all U.S. foreign, and possibly domestic, covert actions. Kissinger also benefitted from the mental instability of Richard Nixon. At least three times Kissinger and others ordered the Joint Chiefs of Staff to disregard Nixon's orders for varying periods of time as it was feared that Nixon might start a nuclear war. These were commendable acts, but illustrate how much influence Kissinger had - with great power comes great responsibility. The most horrific crime discussed is the secret (and illegal) bombings of Cambodia and Laos. While I had been familiar with this as a legal and Constitutional issue, I was unaware of the full extent of civilian casualties. The bombings were apparently motivated by information that North Vietnam was supplying southern rebels through Cambodia and Laos. The bombings were carried out by B-52s flying at high altitude, which meant they could drop a large quantity of explosive, but not with any accuracy. The loss of accuracy appeared not to matter, as there were no real targets identified. Perhaps one million (!!!) civilians died in these indiscriminate bombings. Many of the victims were small children who are said to be less resistent to the shockwave of high explosives. Less complicated, and likely most prosecutable, is Kissinger's instigation of the murder of Gen. Rene Schneider, Chief of the Chilean General Staff. In 1970, Salvador Allende was legally elected President of Chile with a minority of the popular vote. (Much as William Clinton was elected to the U.S. Presidency in 1992.) Chile was of limited importance, but Nixon had close ties to people who worked for corporations which feared theft of their assets. Nixon made Allende's removal a top priority. Chile was a democratic country with 150 years of elected government behind it. Gen. Schneider supported Constitutional government and was the main obstacle to a military coup. A few days before Allende took office, Schneider was murdered by anti-democratic military officers supported by the CIA and directed by Kissinger. Hitchens: "Here one must pause for a recapitulation. An unelected official in the United States is meeting with others, without the knowledge or authorization of Congress, to plan the kidnapping of a constitution-minded senior officer in a democratic country with which the United States is not at war, and with which it maintains cordial diplomatic relations. The minutes of the meetings may have an official look to them (though they were hidden from the light of day for long enough) but what we are reviewing is a 'hit' - a piece of state-supported terrorism." While it is hardly defensible to murder any political dissident, what is especially disturbing about the Schneider case is that he was nominally on the same team as Kissinger and his cronies and does not appear to have been a dissident in any way other than his respect for the rule of law. The case of Elias P. Demetracopoulos further illustrates Kissinger's fundamentally criminal nature. Mr. Demetracopoulos is a Greek journalist who was opposed to the military regime which controlled his country from 1967 to 1974. During this time he lived in the United States and lobbied Congress to support democracy in Greece. After the Greek dictatorship fell, documents became available which showed there had been repeated extensive plans, in collusion with the USG, to kidnap the journalist from the United States and return him to Greece. There is reason to believe that their plan was to torture and then kill him. It is also known that an index of various NSC documents refers to a document from 1970 with keywords "RE MR DEMETRACOPOULOS DEATH IN ATHENS PRISON". (The document itself remains unavailable.) Not only was this kidnapping to occur inside the United States, indeed probably in Washington, D.C., but Demetracopoulos was very well connected in the Republican and Democratic parties. For example, one of his close friends introduced Nixon and Agnew. He is personally known to Kissinger. Other chapters, well worth reading, cover criminal activities with respect to East Timor, Bangladesh, and Cyprus. At the end of the book Hutchins evaluates the prospects for a trial and suggests that Kissinger may be facing a variety of indictments in several countries. Even in the event that he is not tried in the United States, this would at least have the effect of limiting his travel and tarnish his "elder statesman" image. Hitchens argues that the U.S. might as well prosecute now so as not to be shamed in the eyes of the world. Indeed, every day this criminal is allowed to walk free is an indictment of the ability - and willingness - of the U.S. legal system to exercise justice. And, any time anybody wants to know why strong crypto is a good idea for a free society the answer is simple: It makes it harder for murderers like Henry Kissinger and his friends to eliminate their political opponents. From movwater at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 31 22:13:03 2001 From: movwater at bellsouth.net (Neal J. Lang) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 01:13:03 -0400 Subject: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? Message-ID: <01C11A27.1DACDFC0.movwater@bellsouth.net> Hi, Jonathan, It takes a "big man" to see and then admit to his mistakes. Now, if I only can get some of my other friends to see the light. Thanks, Neal -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Wienke [SMTP:JonathanW at gbgcorp.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:19 PM To: Director at KeepAndBearArms.com; air.man at att.net; brian at citizensofamerica.org; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; George at Orwellian.Org; freematt at coil.com; dial911book at yahoo.com; lrrankin at silcom.com; Peter Mancus (E-mail); Merrill Gibson (E-mail); 'Neal Lang'; David Codrea (E-mail) Subject: RE: NRA Prints HALF Of The Story (Barniskis)? << File: ATT00000.html >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The American Rifleman article with the complete text of the John Ashcroft letter re the second amendment is in the August 2001 issue on pages 62 and 63, not the July issue. My apologies for the mix-up. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBO2cgtRj6oMyeDxZoEQLiTwCeNiFXMzVKO5N9h9eZwwk+UEivIRwAoP7g AM5g1whjNGCmXdwpVe5iMGK8 =H+CZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Info at medicinehorizons.com Tue Jul 31 19:30:48 2001 From: Info at medicinehorizons.com (Medicine Horizons) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 04:30:48 +0200 Subject: New Branche of Medicine Message-ID: <200108010655.f716t1E21178@benhur.iserver.com> MEDICINE HORIZONS - newsletter Integration of Ancient Wisdom and Modern Scientific Technologies Leading to a New Branch of Medicine No innovation has gained such a fast foothold and recognition among medical experts as the utilisation of the natural laws of harmony. When one considers that the term Medical Resonance Therapy Music was only coined 14 years ago, and then looks at the present level of documentation on research and developments in this new branch of medicine, and the statements of leading medical experts from many fields such as hormone research, gynaecology, paediatrics, dermatology, research into headaches, intensive care medicine etc. right up to international recognition as the most successful "anti-stress remedy in the world" at the International Conference "Society, Stress and Health" of the World Health Organisation (WHO), then it is also worthwhile examining the causes for such enormous medical success more closely. Interesting links: Medical Resonance Therapy Music http://www.medicalresonancetherapymusic.com Scientific Music Therapy - Research http://www.scientificmusictherapy.com Music as Data Carrier of the Laws of Harmony Nature織s Laws of Harmony in the Microcosm of Music Chronobiological Aspects of Music Physiology International Experts http://www.digipharm.com Micro Music Laboratories http://www.micromusiclaboratories.com MEDICINE HORIZONS http://www.medicinehorizons.com p.s.: this message was sent to you in the genuine belief that it is of professional interest to you. If you do not want to receive further information please simply send us an email: mailto:remove at medicinehorizons.com From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com Tue Jul 31 20:28:09 2001 From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 05:28:09 +0200 Subject: Do not taunt happy-fun-court. Message-ID: <027680d6da1d5ceefdf52e004889ccb3@mix.winterorbit.com> Black Unicorn said: There are a few cypherpunks probably listening to this who've been smacked with subpoenas for running remailers. I think you'll find that the government is pretty persuasive to third parties like these. The only defense (which one administrator of a remailer I won't name was clever enough to set himself up with) is to say (my paraphrasing) "I don't have access to those logs or any of that data. I don't keep such logs and I never have because it's too much overhead and work." -- I suspect I'm the remop being referred to here, so I'll comment: That defense is valid because it is true. It isn't a contrived excuse for not keeping logs that I conveniently pull out of the wings to protect the anonymity of my users. Keeping logs really is too much of a resource drain on my system. At some point I will probably begin keeping logs that expire after a period of several hours, so that I can identify and block spammers. I'm interested in your thoughts on this, Uni. Is the defense "I never retain logs longer than 2 hours; they are automatically deleted out of disk space considerations" as string as the first one? (This is how many remailers are configured. But even if the remailers all kept logs, if users are chaining their messages through multiple remailers, anonymity should still be preserved.) Regardless, I haven't had the time to implement such a system anyway. My point here is that, if you are going to be using the "off-shore attorney" system of preserving your data, I think it would be helpful if there was a legitimate reason for placing your information in the hands of this other entity (other than protection from the US courts.)