oppose nomination of John Ashcroft

Declan McCullagh declan at well.com
Sun Jan 21 01:20:44 PST 2001


Sparring with Choate is about as useful as beating oneself with a
rubber baton, just far less rewarding.

I never said animals should be trained to fear an owner or any other
human; to say otherwise is simple Choatian exaggeration. But my "show
of force" point is perfectly reasonable, and I stand by it.

-Declan
PS: I don't have pets. I travel too much. I had a fish once.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:59:36AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> [ WARNING: Use of 3rd person referentials. Not necessarily meant as a
>            personal indicative.]
> 
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Mac Norton wrote:
> 
> > Well, I think animals fear the tone in your voice when you
> > say "NO!" as contrasted with the usual tone in your voice.
> 
> That's not fear, that's respect of the pecking order (I assume you
> speak of dogs since most other animals couldn't give a fuck less about
> your tone of voice unless you're yelling). Fear is an entirely different
> matter from respect.
> 
> More people should understand this distinction. Hell, most people
> shouldn't even have pets.
> 
> > That shouldn't be accompanied by a beating, but a smart
> > two-fingered tap on the muzzle during housebreaking, 
> > followed by promptly putting the pup outside or on the 
> > newspaper, is not abuse in my book.  Is it in yours?
> 
> Don't know about abuse but it's crappy training technique (and I say that 
> from raising dogs for 37 years). Also, abuse is about more than simply
> striking them. It includes negligence as well. It means not doing what you
> should be doing.
> 
> No, you shouldn't be tapping them on the nose or otherwise physically
> striking them. If you wait around until the animal has to take a crap in
> the floor then YOU have failed in the training. The goal is to teach the
> animal to ask to go out. That means YOU have to learn the animals schedule
> and use it to teach them the expected behaviour. That means YOU have to
> follow the feeding schedule and time the animals bowl rate. It means  YOU
> have to set the alarm clock to take the animal out (or on the paper, and
> sit there till IT's done not until your patience runs out) BEFORE they
> can't hold their bladder any longer (which is after all the true goal
> we're after here at least). That means it's YOUR responsibility to take
> them out regularly every 2-3 hours or so (and that means at nite when
> you'd rather be sleeping too) when they're puppies. Basically it means YOU
> have to get off your ass and quite asking the animal to do it for you. It
> means when the animal come at 4am and asks to go out you get your lazy
> butt out of bed and take them outside. Basically YOU need to be doing this
> before you ever give the puppy to the new owner (which shouldn't happen
> prior to 8 weeks anyway). YOU need to teach the new owner and if they show
> ANY hesitency then don't give them the animal, they'll only abuse it.
> 
> Dogs are genetically wired for this training. When young pups prior to eye
> opening use the bathroom the mother eats the crap and piss (hence pottie
> training a dog prior to ~8 weeks is a waste of time for all concerned).
> As they age she pays attention to their feeding cycle and physically takes
> them out of the den when she knows it's pottie time. They connect 'go
> outside den' with 'my bladder is uncomfortable'. When you first get your
> pup expect piss and shit everywhere for the first week. Take the dog out
> every two hours irrespective of badder/bowel movement. And don't react to
> the bowel/bladder movement at all with respect to 'punishing' (what a
> fucking power mad concept) the dog. Just clean it up. After that they'll
> start putting 2 and 2 together on their own. It usually take from between
> 3 and 6 weeks for them to figure it out and be reliable [there are
> exception, I have a wolf hybrid it took 6 months - wolves don't pottie
> train well at all. I was prepared for it to never learn. Really it
> doesn't care, another difference many miss. I have a domestic dog now who
> doesn't care for fences or gates. I have to keep her behind a 6ft fence on
> 3/4 in aircraft cable] and I was prepared to keep cleaning it up and to
> take it out every two hours irrespective. It has to do with a slightly
> different territory sense between wolves and domesticated dogs.).
> 
> Sticking their nose in piss, yelling at them because they couldn't hold
> their bladder (think of how you feel after a six hour car drive and no
> rest stop) or whacking them with a rolled up newspaper (I dare you to
> strike a wolf hybrid) ain't the way any more than sitting around on your
> ass drinking beer and watching TV until the animal shits in the floor and
> then you yell at it and drag it around pointing at newspaper (like a puppy
> has any clue what paper is) is the way or it's supposed to read your mind.
> (After all, if you're so smart how come you didn't recognize the pup was
> in distress in the first place?)
> 
> Now this should not be interpreted to mean that no physical contact is
> required. For example the best way to teach dogs not to rush the door is
> to pin them in it. If a dog pushes you and you don't want then push it
> away hard enough to put it on the ground (similar to a 'alpha roll', and
> if you don't know what a 'alpha roll' is or how to use it you know nothing
> about training dogs). If you teach them 'back up' and they don't you alpha
> roll them on their back.
> 
> As to demanding respect from dogs, you don't do it with your voice. You do
> it with your eyes (another sign of inexperience is this common mistake,
> even a lot of 'professionals' make it). In addition you shouldn't play
> 'tug of war' with it and you should NEVER let a puppy/dog get on top of a
> child or person, EVER!!!!!
> 
> There are some monks who raise German Shephards, they write some excellent
> books. Anyone raising any sort of canine should read at least one of them.
> 
> With cats the usual failure is insufficient handling in the first 4 weeks
> after birth (raised tradition, applehead, Siamese for nearly 20 years). If
> this isn't done the animal will never be settled. In the case of cats that
> don't receive any human contact in that first 4 weeks, they'll never be
> domesticated. And yelling 'NO' at a cat is a fruiteless exercise in ego.
> And Ferrets are a whole other ball of wax entirely. Yell at a cow or a
> sheep and you're just as likely to be sitting on your ass with a broken
> hip. Yell at or strike a horse and it'll shy from you till the day you
> die.
> 
> (And despite what a lot of 'trainers', really people who want to be well
> know in the competitive ring, might say; never keep your dog crated.)
> 
> Bottem line, if an animal fails in its behavior it rests on one set of
> shoulders and one set of shoulders only, the owner. It is NEVER the
> animals fault.
> 
> Raising a pet isn't about what you the owner want, it's about what the
> animal needs. It's about 'caring' not 'ownership' (which is one reason
> among many PETA is a bunch of fucked up assholes). And anyone who buys a
> pet after watching a movie, for a holiday present, or because they think
> it would be 'cool' needs to review this point in a serious fashion.
> 
> Anyway, good luck with your pet. Over and out.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





More information about the cypherpunks-legacy mailing list