oppose nomination of John Ashcroft

[Jim Choate]

[ WARNING: Use of 3rd person referentials. Not necessarily meant as a
           personal indicative.]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Mac Norton wrote:

> Well, I think animals fear the tone in your voice when you
> say "NO!" as contrasted with the usual tone in your voice.

That's not fear, that's respect of the pecking order (I assume you
speak of dogs since most other animals couldn't give a fuck less about
your tone of voice unless you're yelling). Fear is an entirely different
matter from respect.

More people should understand this distinction. Hell, most people
shouldn't even have pets.

> That shouldn't be accompanied by a beating, but a smart
> two-fingered tap on the muzzle during housebreaking, 
> followed by promptly putting the pup outside or on the 
> newspaper, is not abuse in my book.  Is it in yours?

Don't know about abuse but it's crappy training technique (and I say that 
from raising dogs for 37 years). Also, abuse is about more than simply
striking them. It includes negligence as well. It means not doing what you
should be doing.

No, you shouldn't be tapping them on the nose or otherwise physically
striking them. If you wait around until the animal has to take a crap in
the floor then YOU have failed in the training. The goal is to teach the
animal to ask to go out. That means YOU have to learn the animals schedule
and use it to teach them the expected behaviour. That means YOU have to
follow the feeding schedule and time the animals bowl rate. It means  YOU
have to set the alarm clock to take the animal out (or on the paper, and
sit there till IT's done not until your patience runs out) BEFORE they
can't hold their bladder any longer (which is after all the true goal
we're after here at least). That means it's YOUR responsibility to take
them out regularly every 2-3 hours or so (and that means at nite when
you'd rather be sleeping too) when they're puppies. Basically it means YOU
have to get off your ass and quite asking the animal to do it for you. It
means when the animal come at 4am and asks to go out you get your lazy
butt out of bed and take them outside. Basically YOU need to be doing this
before you ever give the puppy to the new owner (which shouldn't happen
prior to 8 weeks anyway). YOU need to teach the new owner and if they show
ANY hesitency then don't give them the animal, they'll only abuse it.

Dogs are genetically wired for this training. When young pups prior to eye
opening use the bathroom the mother eats the crap and piss (hence pottie
training a dog prior to ~8 weeks is a waste of time for all concerned).
As they age she pays attention to their feeding cycle and physically takes
them out of the den when she knows it's pottie time. They connect 'go
outside den' with 'my bladder is uncomfortable'. When you first get your
pup expect piss and shit everywhere for the first week. Take the dog out
every two hours irrespective of badder/bowel movement. And don't react to
the bowel/bladder movement at all with respect to 'punishing' (what a
fucking power mad concept) the dog. Just clean it up. After that they'll
start putting 2 and 2 together on their own. It usually take from between
3 and 6 weeks for them to figure it out and be reliable [there are
exception, I have a wolf hybrid it took 6 months - wolves don't pottie
train well at all. I was prepared for it to never learn. Really it
doesn't care, another difference many miss. I have a domestic dog now who
doesn't care for fences or gates. I have to keep her behind a 6ft fence on
3/4 in aircraft cable] and I was prepared to keep cleaning it up and to
take it out every two hours irrespective. It has to do with a slightly
different territory sense between wolves and domesticated dogs.).

Sticking their nose in piss, yelling at them because they couldn't hold
their bladder (think of how you feel after a six hour car drive and no
rest stop) or whacking them with a rolled up newspaper (I dare you to
strike a wolf hybrid) ain't the way any more than sitting around on your
ass drinking beer and watching TV until the animal shits in the floor and
then you yell at it and drag it around pointing at newspaper (like a puppy
has any clue what paper is) is the way or it's supposed to read your mind.
(After all, if you're so smart how come you didn't recognize the pup was
in distress in the first place?)

Now this should not be interpreted to mean that no physical contact is
required. For example the best way to teach dogs not to rush the door is
to pin them in it. If a dog pushes you and you don't want then push it
away hard enough to put it on the ground (similar to a 'alpha roll', and
if you don't know what a 'alpha roll' is or how to use it you know nothing
about training dogs). If you teach them 'back up' and they don't you alpha
roll them on their back.

As to demanding respect from dogs, you don't do it with your voice. You do
it with your eyes (another sign of inexperience is this common mistake,
even a lot of 'professionals' make it). In addition you shouldn't play
'tug of war' with it and you should NEVER let a puppy/dog get on top of a
child or person, EVER!!!!!

There are some monks who raise German Shephards, they write some excellent
books. Anyone raising any sort of canine should read at least one of them.

With cats the usual failure is insufficient handling in the first 4 weeks
after birth (raised tradition, applehead, Siamese for nearly 20 years). If
this isn't done the animal will never be settled. In the case of cats that
don't receive any human contact in that first 4 weeks, they'll never be
domesticated. And yelling 'NO' at a cat is a fruiteless exercise in ego.
And Ferrets are a whole other ball of wax entirely. Yell at a cow or a
sheep and you're just as likely to be sitting on your ass with a broken
hip. Yell at or strike a horse and it'll shy from you till the day you
die.

(And despite what a lot of 'trainers', really people who want to be well
know in the competitive ring, might say; never keep your dog crated.)

Bottem line, if an animal fails in its behavior it rests on one set of
shoulders and one set of shoulders only, the owner. It is NEVER the
animals fault.

Raising a pet isn't about what you the owner want, it's about what the
animal needs. It's about 'caring' not 'ownership' (which is one reason
among many PETA is a bunch of fucked up assholes). And anyone who buys a
pet after watching a movie, for a holiday present, or because they think
it would be 'cool' needs to review this point in a serious fashion.

Anyway, good luck with your pet. Over and out.

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           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
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                                           George Zebrowski

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