From nobody at neuropa.net  Mon Jan  1 00:26:26 2001
From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous)
Date: 1 Jan 2001 08:26:26 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200101010821.f018L4r22302@berlin.neuropa.net>



-- ignore -- 




From nobody at neuropa.net  Mon Jan  1 00:37:39 2001
From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous)
Date: 1 Jan 2001 08:37:39 -0000
Subject: ASCII Ribbon Campaign... [was Re: This is why a free society is evil.]
Message-ID: <200101010832.f018WIr22378@berlin.neuropa.net>



http://www.google.com/search?q=ascii+ribbon+campaign

ymmv,
C.G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim May" <tcmay at got.net>
To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: CDR: Re: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd)


> At 10:57 AM -0700 12/17/00, Tiarnan O Corrain wrote:
> >Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:Re- CDR- Re- This is why a free 
> >(MiME/CSOm) (00012800)
> 
> 
> Please in-line your text.
> 
> Your message above appears as an attachment (only, not just a digital 
> signature). Sometimes Eudora Pro, a common e-mail program, is able to 
> open such messages, sometimes not. In your particular case, for 
> whatever reasons, attempting to open your attachment crashes my 
> program. I tried three times, then gave up.
> 
> Folks, this increase in MIME attachments is getting out of hand. 
> People are reading this list on a variety of machines, from PDAs to 
> Amigas to VT100s to Unix boxes to Windows.
> 
> I am filtering Corrain's stuff into my trash file until someone 
> (else) tells me his stuff is no longer MIME-encrusted.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan  1 06:49:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 08:49:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231212042.01c9a188@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010101084623.31533Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 1 Jan 2001, Van Donald wrote:

> A chat program needs a server, or interacting network of servers to 
> advertise presence.

No, they don't. They do need a persistent network presence however.
Distinctly different things.

> This server could also act as a public key server, 

Which is pointless. The only(!) group that is excluded from IRC at this
point is anyone who doesn't have the brains to request a session key
through the server.

> invisibly to user, guaranteeing stability of identity -- that this presence 
> was the same entity as had been logged on under the same name in previous 
> sessions.

Using pk's doesn't do this since I can loan my key as easy as I might own
a password. Besides how do you know somebody isn't diddling with the
central server?

Any centralized system is bound to be defeated through a 'least effort'
attack on the servers. As a result of the server going down the entire
system has now been breached and the trust in the operators is nil.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan  1 07:22:36 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:22:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: World in 2015
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010101092217.31533W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



You should check out the CIA article on Drudge...

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From upshaw.archer073 at gmail.com  Mon Jan  1 06:27:34 2001
From: upshaw.archer073 at gmail.com (Jonathon Murillo)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:27:34 -0500
Subject: Stronger climaxes and orgasms
Message-ID: <200604201249.k3KCnr2Q000317@proton.jfet.org>

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http://nv1a.dotinworlds.info/mm





From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  1 12:32:53 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:32:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Digital Cash with dynamic range
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101011219470.29074-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Most of the protocols I'm finding for digital cash don't have much 
in the way of dynamic range.  Generally, there is a range of values 
that they are designed for (rarely more than a factor of a thousand 
or so from smallest to largest) and smaller payments become 
impossible and larger payments become impractical. 

The problem is particularly severe for offline protocols, where you 
can't get the bank online to make change or issue arbitrary-valued 
coins. 

Does anyone know any happy exceptions to this rule, where payments 
ranging from a millionth of a token up through several million  
tokens could all be practical?  (ie, dynamic range of the twelfth 
or higher order?)

Anyway, the "practical in arbitrary amounts" assumption is pretty 
fundamental to useful money.  We achieve it through bank drafts, 
checks, transfer orders, etc.  But these instruments are not as 
clear how to do in a digital world where anonymity is preserved. 

In particular, I haven't found low-level details of how the "Mojo" 
tokens in use by the new MojoNation stuff work. Are they just an 
implementation of a well-documented protocol, or did they do something 
new?

				Bear







From marketing at netoneplus.com  Mon Jan  1 13:01:18 2001
From: marketing at netoneplus.com (marketing at netoneplus.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:01:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Information on your website
Message-ID: <200101012101.QAA07951@jxmls04.se.mediaone.net>

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From rsw at mit.edu  Mon Jan  1 13:46:51 2001
From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:46:51 -0500
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 06:56:26PM -0500
References: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com> <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>

David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a 
> secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some
> other existing, insecure chat program)

MIT uses Zephyr for text messaging.  It's not secure, but it can
authenticate with Kerberos.  

There are "homebrew" extensions to have encrypted sessions; basically,
since zephyr is 8-bit safe, you can put whatever you want inside the
message, including (non-armored) encrypted data.

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From GWAUGUSTADR at email.msn.com  Mon Jan  1 17:56:21 2001
From: GWAUGUSTADR at email.msn.com (GWAUGUSTADR)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:56:21 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <003e01c07460$ef70bf80$3acb193f@oemcomputer>


Gary and Jill WaltersWE ARE IN RECIEPT OF INFORMATION ON WARREN ANDERSON. WE HAVE THE TOP AMERICAN ASTONAOGHTS CAPABLE OF BRINGING THE MIR DOWN. WE ARE IN CONTACT WITH THE RUSSIANS NOW, IF YOU CAN PUT US IN TOUCH WITH HIM RIGHT AWAY TIME IS OF ESSEINCE. OUR GOAL WOULD BE TO HAVE THE RUSSIANS REBOOST THE MIR INTO A 3 YEAR ORBIT ACCORDING TO CAMANDER DAVID SCOTT THE APPOLLO CAMANDER AND OUR SCIENTIST HAVE A WAY OF SLINNKY WRAP PROJECT TO BRING MIR DOWN AND DISPLAY IT IN AN INTERNATIONAL SPAC AND TECHNOLOGY THEME PARK. SYMBOL RAMO, IS CURRENTLY DEVELOPEING AN ACQUSITION TO ASSIST VANGUARD SPACE TECHNOLOGY AND INTERNATIONAL SPACE TECHNOLOGY, WITH AN UNDERWRITING THIS YEARS LAUNCH PROGRAMS FOR SATAELITE RECOVERY. WE AT RAMO ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE ONLY PRIVATE GROUP CAPABLE OF DOING THIS TYPE OF RECOVERY IN THE INTIRE WORLD. ALL TOP NOTCH SCIENTISTS, SPACE CAMMANDERS, FORMER SPACE COMMAND CENTER DIRECTORS, SECURITY  SPACE DIRECTOR MISSION READY INSURANCE COMPANIES ALREADY IN PLACE ETC, PLEASE RESPOND ASAP. TELEPHONE # 7027327385 OR 702 2018581OR EMAIL    
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From thomasstern at netzero.net  Mon Jan  1 18:45:49 2001
From: thomasstern at netzero.net (thomasstern)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:45:49 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c07466$1e312f80$356b0404@valuedcu>

I have over 100 properties am looking to trade or swap or exchange most of them are single family homes and some are commerical and they are located in Lubbock, Texas will be willing to look at anything and they are all free and clear with no leins they are excellent for 1031 exchanges please feel free to call at 806-797-6481 or email for list Thankyou Thomas Stern
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From thomasstern at netzero.net  Mon Jan  1 19:09:13 2001
From: thomasstern at netzero.net (thomasstern)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 21:09:13 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c07469$631543e0$356b0404@valuedcu>

I have over 100 properties am looking to trade or swap or exchange most of them are single family homes and some are commerical and they are located in Lubbock, Texas will be willing to look at anything and they are all free and clear with no leins they are excellent for 1031 exchanges please feel free to call at 806-797-6481 or email for list Thankyou Thomas Stern
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 21:28:09 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 21:28:09 -0800
Subject: Reminder... Mac Crypto  Jan 29th - Feb 1st
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101212809.00b07100@idiom.com>


RAH isn't forwarding to Cypherpunks at the moment

--- begin forwarded text



From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 21:53:30 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 21:53:30 -0800
Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California  
  Liberalism]
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6731b57df98@[207.111.241.182]>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101215330.02203d90@idiom.com>


At 09:02 PM 12/29/00 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>What these new plants ARE NOT is the kind of large nuclear plant 
>comparable in size to the highly successful Diablo Canyon Nuclear 
>Power Station. That plant was completed more than 15 years ago. It is 
>in an unpopulated area, between Half Moon Bay and Pismo Beach, and 
>west of San Luis Obispo.

Heh.  I drove by that one this afternoon after visiting the hot springs.  
As long as there's no major earthquake in the nearby fault before tomorrow, 
I don't expect to be glowing in the dark when I next see you, 
but it was a seriously stupid place to build a big nuke plant,
even if it's not in anybody's backyard (except Vinnie's,
and the few other Cypherpunks in the area, and Cal Poly SLO, and...)
However, without some rate relief, PG&E may be out of business
before the Big One hits, so the difficulty of cleanup won't be
their, um, fault.

		Geothermally yours, 


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan  1 22:35:38 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:35:38 -0800
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>
References: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>
 <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <p04320411b67726e68d23@[10.1.1.42]>


>David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
>>  Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a
>>  secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some
>>  other existing, insecure chat program)
>
>MIT uses Zephyr for text messaging.  It's not secure, but it can
>authenticate with Kerberos.
>
>There are "homebrew" extensions to have encrypted sessions; basically,
>since zephyr is 8-bit safe, you can put whatever you want inside the
>message, including (non-armored) encrypted data.

	He's talking about gale, www.gale.org.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 22:59:53 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:59:53 -0800
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012310249510.19834-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <200012310213.eBV2DAa15964@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101225953.02221b90@idiom.com>


At 02:52 AM 12/31/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?"
>
>This is in the FAQ:
>"EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable,
>    uniform, chat environment."
>
>and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why
>this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people
>give as their reasons for a new IRC network?

Simplification of protocols so they can sell out to Microsoft/AOL?  :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From thomasstern at netzero.net  Mon Jan  1 21:16:23 2001
From: thomasstern at netzero.net (thomasstern)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:16:23 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0747b$26ef72c0$036b0404@valuedcu>

I have over 100 properties am looking to trade or swap or exchange most of them are single family homes and some are commerical and they are located in Lubbock, Texas will be willing to look at anything and they are all free and clear with no leins they are excellent for 1031 exchanges please feel free to call at 806-797-6481 or email for list Thankyou Thomas Stern
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From enenkio at webtv.net  Tue Jan  2 01:36:05 2001
From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:36:05 -1000 (HST)
Subject: EnenKio
Message-ID: <11515-3A51A105-16147@storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net>



:  

:        Allan P Stayman Will he hang for Lies,Fraud and Disinformation
About EnenKio or will Akaka,Inouye,State Dept. X Pres. Bush or Gore
: From: Robert Moore --  www.enenkio.org

: Contact: Steve Hansen ( Steve.Hansen at mail.house.gov) (202) 225-7749 or
Arturo Silva ( Arturo.Silva at mail.house.gov) (202) 225-4063 To: National
Desk/Environmental Reporter July 12, 2000 Inspector General Testifies
About Illegal Political & Lobbying Activity At Department Of Interior
"Most Egregious Example I've Seen" In 30 Years Of Law Enforcement
Washington, D.C. - The Inspector General for the U.S. Department of the
Interior today outlined numerous examples of illegal political and
lobbying activity at the Department which led him to refer the matter
for possible criminal prosecution against an agency employee. Earl E.
Devaney, Inspector General for the Department of the Interior, testified
before the U.S. House Committee on Resources that former Interior
official David North's political activities were "the most egregious
example I've seen" in 30 years of law enforcement. North "retired" last
year immediately after the Resources Committee began an investigation
into North's political activities. Devaney testified that North
conducted political activity from his federal office during work hours
against Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX), Majority Whip Tom DeLay
(R-TX), and U.S. Reps. Phil English (R-PA), Brian Bilbray (R-CA) and
Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). In addition, Devaney testified that North
sought to assist Democrat Congressional candidates and had contact with
the Democrat National Committee and the Democrat Congressional Campaign
Committee. Clinton's Department Of Justice Refuses To Prosecute Case
Inspector General Devaney also stated that he was disappointed that the
Department of Justice declined to prosecute North for criminal actions.
U.S. Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), the Chairman of the Committee, responded
that he wasn't surprised "considering the Clinton-Gore Administration's
well-documented manipulation of the Justice Department to protect
illegal activity by its political appointees." "This is the most
partisan and politically-motivated Justice Department in the history of
the nation," Young said. Another Clinton Political Appointee Is Under
Investigation By Government Devaney also explained to the Committee that
Allen Stayman, the former Director of the Office of Insular Affairs, was
under investigation by the Office of Special Counsel for possible
illegal political and lobbying activities. Devaney said his
investigation uncovered evidence that Stayman was aware of some of
North's political and lobbying activities. The Resources Committee is
also investigating actions by Ferdinand "Danny" Aranza, the current
Director of the Office of Insular Affairs. Both Aranza and Stayman
testified under oath at today's hearing under subpoena. "I've never
high-ranking officials suffer such convenient memory lapses in my 27
years in Congress," Young said. "Despite the denials and all of the
'I-can't-recalls', we will continue to pursue to this issue." Inspector
General Devaney also testified that North assisted organizations like
the Global Survival Network and helped prepare a "report" that
questioned connections between Members of Congress and garment
executives. The organization later submitted the report to Congress.
Devaney also testified that North provided confidential information
about private individuals to a reporter. Chairman Young's Opening
Statement "After a year-long oversight review, this Committee has
unearthed overwhelming documentation of numerous highly unethical and
improper actions by federal employees of the Office of Insular Affairs,
or OIA. "We have been able to substantiate multiple acts of partisan
political activity, lobbying with appropriated funds, producing
materials and collecting information under false pretenses, and
violations of the privacy of individuals and businesses - all courtesy
of the U.S. taxpayer. "In short, we have found massive waste, fraud, and
abuse at the Office of Insular Affairs. This is what Congressional
oversight is supposed to be all about. "OIA's highly questionable
activities, at taxpayer expense, include: researching and writing
political campaign press releases and candidate position papers for
candidates to present as campaign materials; researching and drafting
partisan memos and press releases for Democratic party offices,
including the Democratic National Committee, the Democratic National
Congressional Committee, The House Democratic Caucus, and state party
organizations, to present as their own campaign materials; editing,
researching and writing reports, position papers, and press releases for
lobbying organizations to use to influence the outcome of legislation
before Congress; hiring private investigators to nose around Saipan and
even Hong Kong to dig up information on the garment industry; digging up
private, sensitive information about private citizens they don't like,
and then releasing that information - full names, Social Security
numbers, Alien registration information - to investigative journalists.
The Committee has subpoenaed and reviewed the contents of hundreds of
thousands of documents, as well as the contents of six agency computers
and dozens of computer diskettes. At the same time as these materials
were being provided to the Committee, the Department was also providing
them to the Interior Department Inspector General, Earl Devaney.
Interior's own documents show that one purpose of this referral was the
hope that an ongoing IG investigation might be a successful excuse to
stop producing materials to the Committee. In fact, this excuse was
attempted. It did not work then, and it will not work now. This
Committee must not - and will not - turn its back on its duty to oversee
that activities of officials at the Interior Department - particularly
when there are specific and credible allegations they are using the
resources authorized by this Committee, for partisan and inappropriate
purposes. Nevertheless, I'm sure you will hear the same old song and
dance from the Democrat minority: this has been a witch-hunt, this is
partisan, there is an active criminal investigation, so we should just
drop it. We've seen this defense tactic used so many times from the
Minority in this Administration, and in this Committee, that it amazes
even me. But let me remind the Democrats that if it weren't for the
inquiry being conducted by this Committee, there would be no criminal
investigation anywhere. It was only after - and as a direct result of -
the opening of this inquiry and the issuance of the initial subpoenas,
that the Interior Department forwarded the information to the Office of
Special Counsel and the Inspector General. At each step of the inquiry,
as this Committee has gathered more information from the Administration,
they have had to forward it also to the Inspector General and the OSC.
That is how Mr. Devaney learned about the abuses going on at OIA. So now
we will hear from the Inspector General, a career law enforcement
professional, and a Clinton Appointee. Mr. Devaney delivered a copy of
his final report to the Committee on Monday, and appears to have found
the same level of waste, fraud, and abuse at OIA that the Committee has
found. So, unless you believe in a grand conspiracy involving the
Congress and the entire office of the IG appointed by Clinton, this is
not a partisan witch hunt. This is about doing our job: protecting the
taxpayer, protecting privacy, protecting against waste, fraud, and
abuse. You'll also hear from my friends in the Democrat minority that
the improper activities were only carried out by one rogue operator,
David North, and that he's now off the payroll, so let's just drop it.
But Mr. North's "retirement" doesn't absolve this Committee of its duty
to get to the bottom of things, and to find out who else may have been
involved. That's why we're here today, and that's why we have subpoenaed
Mr. North's two superiors, former OIA Director Allen Stayman, and former
Deputy Director Danny Aranza, the current Director. They had the duty to
monitor what Mr. North was up to. Lastly - and most loudly - you'll hear
from the Democrats that what was going on in the garment industry in the
CNMI1 was so bad that it justified what North and others were up to. Let
me be clear: This hearing is NOT about allegations of worker abuse on
the CNMI. We have had a CODEL2 to the CNMI, and we have held a hearing
on the CNMI, but THIS hearing is about abuses in the OIA, which this
Committee has a duty to oversee. And we will NOT be de-railed. If
federal officials are allowed to break any laws they want, to violate
people's rights, just because they believe their cause is just, then
Katie bar the door. The message to all federal employees would be that
constitutional and statutory rights don't matter, as long as big brother
in the government thinks the cause is just. If the Democrat minority
gets its way, then who gets to draw the line? What would my colleagues
say if it was a Republican Administration abusing people's privacy and
conducting partisan political activity, because they thought the cause
was just? If the Minority thinks what went on here was OK, and that we
should just ignore the partisan activity and the lobbying and the
privacy violations, then they should go on the record and say so. Then
the next Administration, and the American people, will know where they
stand." 1. CNMI - Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands. 2. CODEL -
Congressional Delegation. For more information, please check the House
Committee on Resources Home Page at http://resourcescommittee.house.gov
:  AMERCIA REMOVE IT OR PROVE IT ! www.enenkio.org -

Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade
Mission
DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall
Islands
http://www.enenkio.org




From mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  2 01:40:29 2001
From: mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com (mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:40:29
Subject: YOUR MORTGAGE LEADS!!
Message-ID: <114.282315.806205@yahoo.com>



                 "DO YOU NEED "FRESH" MORTGAGE LEADS??"

           We have Fresh Targeted Mortgage Leads Available.

                      **High Closing Ratios**

     "Fresh" leads of home owners and buyers that have asked to 
               be contacted by mortgage professionals. 

                     This is NOT a mailing list!  

  These are Real People taking the time and effort to profile themselves and asked for a mortgage lender to contact them. 

 All Leads Are EXCLUSIVE and turn around time to you is less than 24 hours!!

                 For more information phone 807-577-3950. 


P.S. Please forward this email to the owner of the company.  They will be glad you did.





From anonymous at openpgp.net  Mon Jan  1 23:03:12 2001
From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:03:12 -0500
Subject: New attack on digital piracy
Message-ID: <9183c5a4e2944ed47d90a580c2f9a80a@noisebox.remailer.org>


Coalition pushes storage-based copy-prevention

BY DAWN C. CHMIELEWSKI
Mercury News 

Hollywood has teamed up with some of the biggest players in computer storage technology to build a copy-prevention scheme into every hard drive and memory card -- opening a new front in the war against online piracy.

If widely adopted, the technology would make it more difficult for consumers to duplicate copyrighted files such as music and movies without the permission of the companies that own the rights. Hard drives and memory cards are used to store information on everything from personal computers and MP3 music players to digital cameras and palm-size organizers.

Hollywood and the companies designing the anti-copying technology bill it as a revolutionary way to combat piracy. The entertainment industry has been fighting on many fronts, asking the courts to shut down online music-swapping services such as Napster and halt the distribution of software that allows bootleggers to make pristine copies of DVD movies.

But critics say this latest effort, led by an IBM researcher at the company's Almaden Valley campus in San Jose, will prevent users from making even routine copies, such as backups, of files they legally have a right to copy.

``I think it's disgraceful,'' said Richard M. Stallman, a leader in the free software movement and author of ``The Hackers Dictionary.'' ``Everyone's rights are being trampled for the sake of these companies.''

The brainchild of `4C'

The technology is the brainchild of IBM, Intel, Toshiba and Matsushita -- a group of leading hardware makers collectively known as the ``4C.'' The rights-protection technology, dubbed Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM), uses a combination of encryption and scrambling to prevent unauthorized copying. It is currently awaiting approval from a national standards body that sets rules for new features offered on storage devices like hard drives.

CPRM is one of a series of copy-protection technologies designed to thwart the wholesale duplication of copyrighted materials that file-swapping services like Napster make possible. Watermarking is another approach being developed by other firms. That technology places hidden bits of digital code on a song, so labels and artists can track illicit copies. 

IBM researcher Jeffrey Lotspiech, who developed the latest copy-protection technology, said each piece of blank media -- say, a flash memory card or an IBM Microdrive -- comes with a unique serial number.

When a consumer buys the rights to make an authorized copy of, for example, the Barenaked Ladies' latest CD, the rights-protection software uses the serial number on the blank media to create a unique ``key'' that only an authorized player can unlock.

``It uses the media -- the dumb media -- as the source of the key information that allows the two of them to come up with a common key -- the recorder to make the recording and the player to play it in the future,'' said Lotspiech.

It's resistant to hacking because of the sheer number of key combinations that could be created -- ``greater than the number of protons in the universe,'' Lotspiech said in an IBM research publication describing the the technology.

CPRM would do nothing to stop Napster's 37 million users from giving away music to any stranger who asks. But new tracks released with this protection would be worthless.

Microdrives

Lotspiech said IBM plans to use the technology in its popular Microdrives -- stamp-sized hard drives now used to store photographs in digital cameras and music on digital players. And SanDisk has also expressed interest in using it for its flash memory, commonly used to store information in MP3 players and digital cameras.

The first products could begin appearing by next summer.

It's one of several copy-protection schemes designed to meet the criteria set by the recording industry-sponsored Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI), a group established to create a standard for online music distribution.

``So far, content companies have been reluctant to deliver their content in digital form out of fear that piracy would further increase,'' said Leonardo Chiariglione, SDMI's executive director. ``But if there is a way of protecting their content, then content companies will put all of their content out. And that would benefit all consumers.''

The Motion Picture Association of America sees broader applications for the technology. If it's effective at thwarting piracy, it could speed direct digital distribution of movies -- either over the Internet or through digital TV set-top boxes. The movie industry has been reluctant to widely distribute its work because of the fear of Napsterization of films.

``What we have with copy-once content protection technology is the ability to go beyond just a pay-per-view business model to go to a pay-per-copy business model,'' said Brad Hunt, the MPAA's chief technical officer.

In order for Internet delivery to occur, Hunt said the copy-protection technology would have to extend to the computer hard drive -- a proposal that other technologists find chilling.

``We've been keeping an eye on technologies that are designed to remove capabilities from the people who buy the machines -- particularly when it's removing a capability not for the benefit of the buyer .�.�.� but for the benefit of some third party, like a movie company,'' said John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a San Francisco-based organization that advocates free speech online.

Gilmore said copyright laws were never meant to extend a movie studio's reach into a consumer's hard drive.

Contact Dawn Chmielewski at dchmielewski at sjmercury.com or (714) 669-9913.







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 23:23:46 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:23:46 -0500
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101232323.00a8fb10@idiom.com>



David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
>> Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a 
>> secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some
>> other existing, insecure chat program)

Yes, it was Gale http://www.gale.org .
You may note the relationship of its name to Zephyr's :-)

Version 0.99a came out in July; Version 0.99cheese was sometime
unspecified last millenium.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  2 05:27:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:27:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Philippines - Public Announcement - December 31, 2000 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102072700.8211I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:10:06 -0500
From: PA List Manager <statelists at STATE.GOV>
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Philippines - Public Announcement - December 31, 2000

Philippines - Public Announcement
December 31, 2000

On December 30, 2000, the American Embassy in Manila, Philippines made the
following announcement to the local American community in the Philippines.

There were several explosions in the Metro Manila area on December 30, 2000.
The first one occurred at approximately 12 PM and the latest at about 2PM.
The devices went off at the LRT station at Blumentritt; Plaza Ferguson,
which is near the Embassy compound; Pasay Road near the Dusit Hotel in
Makati; the cargo terminal at Ninoy Aquino International Airport (NAIA); and
on a bus in Cubao, Quezon City. Unconfirmed reports of casualties indicate
more than 12 dead and 50 injured. No American citizens are reported among
the casualties and there has been no damage to U.S. Government facilities.

The following is very important guidance for American citizens:

--The Embassy strongly encourages all Americans to remain at their
residences for the remainder of December 30 unless it is absolutely
necessary to do otherwise. Please direct any further questions to the
Embassy's Marine Security Guard at 523-1001, extension 2311 or 2688.

--If you are in the vicinity when such an incident occurs, leave the area
immediately. Do not approach the scene of a bombing or simply stand by
during the initial investigative phase.

--If you see a suspicious object or package, do not disturb it. Immediately
notify an appropriate official, such as a police officer or building guard,
and then depart the premises.

--If you are involved in any of the above, immediately notify the Embassy
with details.

All Americans should continue to review their personal security, remain
vigilant in their personal surroundings and exercise caution. Please remain
particularly alert when out in a public setting.

For further general information on travel to the Philippines, consult the
Department's latest Consular Information Sheet for the Philippines and the
Public Announcement for the Philippines dated September 1, 2000 which this
Announcement supplements. This Public Announcement expires on March 30,
2001.

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs.html




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  2 05:30:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:30:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 1 in 700 emails contains a virus...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102073026.8211K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.theregister.co.uk

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan  2 08:08:26 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:08:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAEDMCHAA.andrew@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101020803080.29583-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

>Further more, IRC does NOT take that much bandwidth, there is a myth that
>efnet NEEDS OC3 links etc because of the traffic that is passed across it,
>what people dont say is that the servers actually only run at between 1 and
>2 megabit/second if you remove the traffic from DDOS and attacks like smurf.

I have a question: given that half the bandwidth and almost all 
of the spike bandwidth is devoted to smurfing, why don't IRC 
servers just block multicast ping? I mean, okay, so it's in the 
kernel code instead of being a separate application.  It still 
shouldn't be hard to come up with a patch that killed smurfing.

Pings should never be forwarded to multiple hosts.

				Bear






From andrew at security.za.net  Tue Jan  2 00:20:28 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:20:28 +0200
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010101225953.02221b90@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAEDMCHAA.andrew@security.za.net>


I must admit Im rather sad to see efnet going this route, having been on
efnet for years and participated and become and active member of many of the
more underground channels on the network, I find it sad to see that the only
irc network where anarchy truely ruled has come to this.

I can however see their reasoning, having looked at efnext, I notice you can
no longer do certain things, /links doesnt work, which means the hubs are
hidden, and splits cant be seen, this means far less smurfing, because there
is no point to smurfing  a leaf server.

You also cannot see the servers someone is linked to if you /whois them,
this stops a number of denial of service attacks.

As for IRC Operators getting involved in channel affairs, if this happens,
people WILL run to another network, maybe I live under an illusion, but I
believe that the anarchy on networks like efnet is inbred in the people, and
is not so much about the network where the people reside, but the people
themselves, and if the anarchy and the control of their own channels is
taken from them, the people will get up and move somewhere where they still
have control.  Their is NOTHING forcing people to move to efnext, and
speaking from experience, setting up and running irc servers is easy, lets
face it, with a decent *nix system you can have an ircd up and running in a
matter of 5 or 10 minutes, an entire network is no more than an hour if you
are linking 10 systems.

Further more, IRC does NOT take that much bandwidth, there is a myth that
efnet NEEDS OC3 links etc because of the traffic that is passed across it,
what people dont say is that the servers actually only run at between 1 and
2 megabit/second if you remove the traffic from DDOS and attacks like smurf.

As for myself, I will still be on efnet, but other than that I will retire
to blabbernet, sure there are services there, and sure its small, but its
non-censored, anarchial, anything goes, and people dont tell me what to do.

Btw, another point I forgot to mention, there is encrypted IRC out there,
there are encrypted protocols built into scrollz for public channel, dcc,
and private message.  If anyone wants more information contact me, I might
also try and release a patch for bitchx and ircII to do the same thing if I
get the time to do some coding and can figure out the crypto code (I dont do
much crypto code unfortunatly)

Anyway, the above are just my opinions.

Andrew Alston / Vortexia
irc.blabber.net - Server Administrator


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 9:00 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext


At 02:52 AM 12/31/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?"
>
>This is in the FAQ:
>"EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable,
>    uniform, chat environment."
>
>and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why
>this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people
>give as their reasons for a new IRC network?

Simplification of protocols so they can sell out to Microsoft/AOL?  :-)


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From adam at homeport.org  Tue Jan  2 08:30:10 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:30:10 -0500
Subject: Digital Cash with dynamic range
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101011219470.29074-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101011219470.29074-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010102113009.A27536@weathership.homeport.org>


On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 12:32:53PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| Most of the protocols I'm finding for digital cash don't have much 
| in the way of dynamic range.  Generally, there is a range of values 
| that they are designed for (rarely more than a factor of a thousand 
| or so from smallest to largest) and smaller payments become 
| impossible and larger payments become impractical. 
| 
| The problem is particularly severe for offline protocols, where you 
| can't get the bank online to make change or issue arbitrary-valued 
| coins. 
| 
| Does anyone know any happy exceptions to this rule, where payments 
| ranging from a millionth of a token up through several million  
| tokens could all be practical?  (ie, dynamic range of the twelfth 
| or higher order?)
|
| Anyway, the "practical in arbitrary amounts" assumption is pretty 
| fundamental to useful money.  We achieve it through bank drafts, 
| checks, transfer orders, etc.  But these instruments are not as 
| clear how to do in a digital world where anonymity is preserved. 

"Teller can not make change for bills over $20."
"Visa/MC minimum charge: $15"
"$30 fee for all wire transfers"

So, I don't agree with you that we have a payment system that works
for arbitrary amounts.  Silly laws aside, paying for a multi-million
dollar purchase with cash is irksomely difficult, because
multiple thousands of dollar bills are bulky.  (I'm assuming that
forgery is an important deterrent to having million dollar bills.  I
know I wouldn't want to accept one.)

| In particular, I haven't found low-level details of how the "Mojo" 
| tokens in use by the new MojoNation stuff work. Are they just an 
| implementation of a well-documented protocol, or did they do something 
| new?

I think that the Mojo guys are using un-blinded Chaumian-style cash.
(See Doug Barnes' work on 'identity-agnostic money')

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  2 09:59:01 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:59:01 -0500
Subject: 1 in 700 emails contains a virus...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102073026.8211K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:30:57AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102073026.8211K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010102125901.C18538@cluebot.com>


Jim, are you being intentionally obtuse? Not everyone reads your
email messages the same day; the home page changes. Send an exact
URL, please. It's only polite.

-Declan

On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:30:57AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Tue Jan  2 02:16:27 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:16:27 +0300
Subject: Q@L[E ONQKEDMHE OPNCP@LL[ AEQOK@RMN
Message-ID: <200101021019.CAA29283@toad.com>


QNTR AEQOK at RMN 
                                                 www.soft2001.nm.ru




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Jan  2 11:37:33 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:37:33 -0500
Subject: Alien hunters devise world's smallest microphone
Message-ID: <3A522DFD.A1361B40@sunder.net>



http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15755.html

Alien hunters devise world's smallest microphone
By: Lucy Sherriff
Posted: 02/01/2001 at 15:51 GMT
Researchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory claim to have devised the most sensitive listening device ever. Designed to enable
robot explorers to listen out for life on other planets, the tiny microphone could theoretically detect the sound of a single cell
growing. 


<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From comeback at pogo.com  Tue Jan  2 15:01:42 2001
From: comeback at pogo.com (comeback at pogo.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:01:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Come back to pogo.com!
Message-ID: <23736436.978476502902.JavaMail.cdc-ops@chef.pogo.com>

Dear cypherpunk0,

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We're inviting you to come back to pogo.com and see all the fun you've been missing. To show how much we care, we'll give you 250 tokens AND a chance to win $500.00 in CASH just for coming back.

Account name: cypherpunk0
Password: password

Your Token Balance: 3577

Check out some of our newest and most popular games:

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What more do we need to say - it's a chance to win ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

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This is one of our most popular games; over 500,000 people played in the first month!

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This is another of our most popular games; over 300,000 people played in the first month!

Jump to the games! Go to: http://play.pogo.com/ten/misc/welcome-back.jsp?site=pogo
AOL members, <a href="http://play.pogo.com/ten/misc/welcome-back.jsp?site=pogo">click here to jump to the games</a>!

To unsubscribe from all future pogo.com mailings, go to:
http://play.pogo.com/ten/unsubscribe/remove-e-mail.jsp?pid=klmtqtvlkvlmtngr&site=pogo
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From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Jan  2 12:08:28 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:08:28 -0500
Subject: "...A Heaping dose of FUD..."
Message-ID: <3A52353C.8655857E@sunder.net>



http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15731.html

Clinton Admin goes out in a blaze of cyber-terror
By: Thomas C Greene in Washington
Posted: 30/12/2000 at 20:06 GMT
No Clinton Administration swan song would be complete without a heaping dose of cyber-crime FUD. We have not been disappointed.
National Security Advisor Richard Clark and National Infrastructure Protection Centre (NIPC) Director Michael Vatis are clanging the
cymbals again, warning that this year's New Year's cyber attacks might be even more devastating than last year's New Year's cyber
attacks.


You remember last year's New Year's cyber attacks, right? 


Right. Neither do we. But this time the sky really is falling, we are assured. Apparently, a vast number of personal computers have
been turned into "zombies" (clients) for the Mother of all DDoS attacks, expected to commence New Year's Eve.

We think the only real "zombies" plugged into the Net are the living dead who would believe this drivel.


<SNIP>

$30.5 million for Digital Storm, an FBI programme upgrading old-fashioned analogue signals collection gear with slick new digital
stuff; $100 million for an overall FBI technology upgrade called the Information Sharing Initiative; 





-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From geronik at csd.uoc.gr  Tue Jan  2 05:32:02 2001
From: geronik at csd.uoc.gr (FRANKY)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:32:02 +0200 (EET)
Subject: In need of help ...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010101215330.02203d90@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.30.0101021516570.19773-100000@pella.csd.uch.gr>




	Happy New Year to every member of this list!
I'm Alexis- I've asked for your help one more time- and once again I'm
in need of your knowledge.
This time I'm interested in security based on hardware. I understand
there are some hardware components providing security in data exchange.
The question is where can i find more information about such chips
(specific Url's maybe).
What really interests me, is to find out which of these chips (if any) are
allowed (by the US Law) to be exported out of the United States.
I you know something more please let me know!

I would really appreciate your help.
Thanx in advance.
Alexis





From hem_nadia at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  2 05:55:06 2001
From: hem_nadia at hotmail.com (nadia em)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:55:06 +0200
Subject: soul catcher
Message-ID: <F2827eEmP9CDBHy3Spw00007b2c@hotmail.com>


Sir, I read your article about the soul catcher and I would like to let you 
know that this device exists in my head since 2ed January 1988 after I had a 
car accident after quitting work for some government relative who harassed 
me both sexually and verbally and then had this thing inserted in my head so 
he could harass me endlessly, I am an engineer and I've been looking for 
evidence since the accident and at last in last mars I found the articles 
about the s.c. , I've been sending letters to influential people since the 
accident, I smell strange odors, my eyes glow in the dark when I open them 
but I don't see that in a mirror, the sound of radio waves transmitting I 
keep hearing in my left ear endlessly since the accident, I can't describe 
how horrid it is to be in this situation, there are more details than you 
can imagine and all horrid, I would like to forget about the whole thing but 
that thing doesn't let me with the audio visual effects I keep getting ,not 
to mention what have my life become, to put it in a few words I'm ruined and 
if I sound paranoid don't believe it cause I'm not , I'm just made to seem 
this way and this device is more than just a lethal weapon it doesn't  just 
kill it mutilates one's being in every since of the word and with the 
unbelievable amount of corruption in this country it is very easy to get 
away with mass murder if you know the  "wrong" people like this very high 
ranked government relative , don�t know what to do more than to commit 
suicide and I don't want this thing that is supposed to be man and human get 
away with such a deed because if he does then this world has come to an end, 
rich people won't just kill poor people or use them but they will be their 
cyber slaves, and I'm not poor at all actually I'm considered rich I'm just 
not a billionaire like he is, endless torture for honest loving people who 
won't sell their souls, ethics and loved ones for money, the end of 
humanity.
This is not a story or some kind of wise crack this is real and happening 
and I want to end it but unless I find some one to help me it won't, much 
more painful details.
S.O.S.
Engineer/ nadia el mofty
1-b, messaha st. dokki, giza, egypt


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Jan  2 17:43:47 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:43:47 -0800
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <200012311801.eBVI1Ma16315@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1001231092559.31533C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010102174243.07ae0e00@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 10:01 AM 12/31/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
>Jim Choate writes:
>
>Making people "part of the process" is one of the first things one learns
>in management.  How to simultaneously make sure they have zero chance of
>actually altering what you have planned for them is the second thing.
>
> > They already are, and have been for years. Usenet is another service that
> > could use some sort of p2p datahaven environment. This should be one of
> > the Cypherpunk 'target projects'.
>
>Uh, right.  Let us know when you have working code.

It shouldn't be very hard to bridge Usenet and Mojo Nation.

steve




From roy at scytale.com  Tue Jan  2 16:14:30 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:14:30 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010102191028.00ac6c20@pop3.idt.net>


A quote from http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,20985,00.html:

" Criminal organizations appear to be using the proceeds of
    IP-infringing products to facilitate a variety of enterprises,
    including guns, drugs, pornography and even terrorism. Invariably,
    when there is intellectual property crime, there is tax evasion and
    money laundering."

Note that last sentence.

Full report at: 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/WH/EOP/NSC/html/documents/pub45270/pub45270index.html




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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:01:38 -0800
Subject: Important New Affiliate Program has Full Global Reach. You Are Invited.
Message-ID: <200101030401.UAA23040@shell1.webquarry.com>



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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Jan  2 18:14:11 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:14:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010102174243.07ae0e00@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101022113380.28872-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> >
> >Uh, right.  Let us know when you have working code.
> 
> It shouldn't be very hard to bridge Usenet and Mojo Nation.

If memory serves, there is a project underway to do "usenet-on-freenet." 

-David





From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Tue Jan  2 22:26:05 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:26:05 -0800 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C3D@exchange.sfocorp.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jan  2 19:39:23 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:39:23 -0500
Subject: monkey-wrenching efnext
Message-ID: <200101030339.WAA01228@modemcable069.22-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



So it appears these efnext people are letting the administrator
control freak method to "fix" problems.  (The tendency to impose more
authentication, more logging, more central control -- instead of
fixing broken protocols -- the easy way out because it's simpler to
implement, though politically and technically broken).

Clearly they are making a mistake.

What could be done to persuade them or educate them that endeavour is
bad for net privacy?  

Some possible technical / social engineering backlashes:

- someone will create some abuse that causes the central
  administrators and thought police to become legally liable.  Perhaps
  even designer abuse -- "abuse" anonymously created for the effect it
  will have on the operators.  (Where's Dimitri Vulis when we need
  him?)

- they are probably dumb and have done a bad job of making their
  changes -- their new centralised controls will get hacked, and their
  network will prove even more susceptible to catastrophic DoS than
  the original ircd.

- people aren't really trying hard to disrupt IRC -- there are
  doubtless many much more malicious and harder to stop ways to
  disrupt it.  People might demonstrate some of these attacks on their
  central failure points.

Adam




From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jan  2 20:04:48 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:04:48 -0500
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext 
Message-ID: <200101030404.XAA01320@modemcable069.22-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



> One of the problems that efnext is trying to address, and a cause of
> network instability is DOS attacks against servers by little kiddies
> that want to take over channels.

So what they should do is fix those problems robustly.  Instead
they're using central control as a "fix".  They get to decide what is
abuse.  They probably don't appreciate the kinds of problems that can
arise from that (see my other comments about designer abuse and the
implied risks of assuming editorial control that some ISPs have faced
etc).

It's typically easier to design hierarchical or even single central
control systems than distributed systems.  DoS resistance is hard too.
The real solution to Distributed DoS is Distributed Service and
they're headed in the wrong direction with that.

> Not that I'm for or against the new network, but it seems that
> building a consensus and peer review of the protocols would be a
> good thing.

Indeed.  They're probably relatively clue free also.  (Just downloaded
the tar ball to reverse engineer what they are actually doing).

> As for the fear that this will lead to central control and
> monitoring of the IRC network, my guess is that IRC is already
> heavily monitored.  

The problem is central control not monitoring -- monitoring affects
privacy, central control affects free speech.

(It's in clear text already, and they're not proposing to do anything
about this -- and for the application -- public chat -- it's unclear
how well you can protect privacy -- any narcs can just join in the
discussion.)

> It's a hell of a lot more trivial than Usenet with only 33 servers
> on the network, and each communication tagged with the hostname or
> IP address that originated it.

So the low number of servers is bad for protecting free speech also.

Also on the plus side it's not that big a network to fork with a fork
keeping the old protocols, with robust distributed DoS fixes.  A
corrolorary of Lucky's comment that there's more demand for crypto
than people competent to do it -- there aren't enough crypto clueful
people to keep up with internet protocols and steer them in sensible
directions.

Adam




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Tue Jan  2 22:20:19 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:20:19 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <06201952273030@ntmail.okeechobee.com>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From hector at hectorinspector.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Jan  3 03:11:02 2001
From: hector at hectorinspector.freeserve.co.uk (hector)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:11:02 -0500
Subject: S-tools
Message-ID: <000a01c07575$84c1f120$b45d893e@oemcomputer>

A couple of years ago, there was a program around that would extract the password from a file created with S-tools. Does anyone remember the program name and/or where I can get hold of it. Source code would be nice too.

Muchas Gracias
Hector
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan  3 05:31:59 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:31:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010103073046.14390C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org (it's a vector to Forbes).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From andrew at security.za.net  Tue Jan  2 21:36:38 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:36:38 +0200
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101020803080.29583-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAEEDCHAA.andrew@security.za.net>


The answer to this question is actually fairly simple, it is VERY easy to
block smurfing in the form of amplification, I.E that is to say that you can
stop yourself being an amplifier, this helps your outgoing bandwidth.
However, to stop yourself being smurfed you have to stop all incoming ICMP
Echo Reply packets coming into your host at your upstream, because what you
are getting from a smurf are NOT ping request packets, they are ICMP echo
reply packets coming from other amplifiers, which means you could be getting
ICMP echo reply packets from 10 thousand + hosts at a time, and there is
little you can do to block it other than have your uplink firewall it.  The
problem is that by the time the ICMP reaches the uplink, the uplink has
probably been saturated, or at least is upset enough over their loss of
bandwidth to possibly cut your connectivity.  It is pretty pointless
blocking ICMP echo replies on the IRC server itself as well, because by the
time the packets get dropped at the server, they have already passed over
the lines and saturated the lines.

Kinda sad hey?

Andrew Alston

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:08 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext




On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

>Further more, IRC does NOT take that much bandwidth, there is a myth that
>efnet NEEDS OC3 links etc because of the traffic that is passed across it,
>what people dont say is that the servers actually only run at between 1 and
>2 megabit/second if you remove the traffic from DDOS and attacks like
smurf.

I have a question: given that half the bandwidth and almost all
of the spike bandwidth is devoted to smurfing, why don't IRC
servers just block multicast ping? I mean, okay, so it's in the
kernel code instead of being a separate application.  It still
shouldn't be hard to come up with a patch that killed smurfing.

Pings should never be forwarded to multiple hosts.

				Bear







From johnjones at themail.com  Tue Jan  2 04:57:10 2001
From: johnjones at themail.com (johnjones at themail.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:57:10 +1900
Subject: The Only Automated Tools You Will Ever Need
Message-ID: <200101031257.HAA23200@ns.getmassivehits.com>


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From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Wed Jan  3 05:31:28 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:31:28 -0500 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF442BD@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From roy at scytale.com  Wed Jan  3 06:14:02 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:14:02 -0500
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
Message-ID: <000501c0758f$4c2d3c60$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:


>http://slashdot.org (it's a vector to Forbes).

<sigh>
No, that's Slashdot.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/03/0628240 is the actual Slashdot
story.

http://www.forbes.com/futuretech/forbes/2001/0108/242.html is a vector to
Forbes.


(and I thought 2001 was going to improve...)





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jan  3 09:25:03 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:25:03 -0800
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
Message-ID: <3A53606F.3552F6FF@lsil.com>


> A quote from
> http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,20985,00.html:
> 
> " Criminal organizations appear to be using the proceeds of
>     IP-infringing products to facilitate a variety of enterprises,
>     including guns, drugs, pornography and even terrorism. Invariably,
>     when there is intellectual property crime, there is tax evasion and
>     money laundering."
> 
> Note that last sentence.
> 
Yes. She's absolutely right. Just look at the DeCSS development. Clearly
a case of drug and gun dealing terrorists developing SW to fund their
nefarious activities. Same as Napster. What a stupid shit. Think the
next prez will do any better picking an AG? Don't bet on it.




From roy at scytale.com  Wed Jan  3 06:25:04 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:25:04 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
Message-ID: <000701c07590$dd459840$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>



From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Wed Jan  3 00:23:18 2001
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:23:18 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext 
In-Reply-To: <200101030404.XAA01320@modemcable069.22-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101031019400.10011-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Adam Back wrote:

>> One of the problems that efnext is trying to address, and a cause of
>> network instability is DOS attacks against servers by little kiddies
>> that want to take over channels.
>
>So what they should do is fix those problems robustly.  Instead
>they're using central control as a "fix".

AFAIK, the main changes related to DoS resilience have nothing to do with
centralized control, but rather making the low level operation of the server
network less visible. Nothing inherently wrong with that, I think. Remote
k and the new ojoin are what people worry about.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan  3 11:43:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:43:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ADL lauds Yahoo for switching on French Nazi case
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0101031142430.21497-100000@well.com>




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:37:25 -0500 
From: "Rosado, Frances" <rosaf at adl.org>
Subject: ADL PR - Yahoo!



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


Contact:  Myrna Shinbaum (212) 885-7747
		 Todd Gutnick (212) 885-7755

ADL COMMENDS YAHOO FOR ACTION BANNING
NAZI MEMORABILIA AND OTHER HATEFUL ITEMS ON ITS AUCTION SITE

New York, NY, January 3, 2001 ... The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today
commended Yahoo! for its decision to take steps to remove hateful materials
from its Internet auctions, calling it a "creative solution to combat the
flood of Nazi memorabilia and other offensive and hateful items being hawked
for sale to the highest bidder in their online auctions."
	Glen A. Tobias, ADL National Chairman, and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL
National Director, issued the following statement:

				We commend Yahoo! for its decision to ensure
that hateful materials do not appear in its online auctions.  We believe
Yahoo! has come up with a creative solution to combat the flood of Nazi
memorabilia and other offensive or hateful items being hawked for sale to
the highest bidder in their online auctions.

				While there is no law in the United States
against selling these items to the public, they were clearly offensive to
many individuals who frequent the auction site.  Yahoo! has recognized this
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auction rooms for inappropriate or offensive content.  Yahoo!'s decision
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that is hateful or otherwise objectionable.

				The Internet is a great tool for education
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Internet companies to walk a fine line between free expression and
inappropriate or hateful conduct.  Internet companies need to be continually
on watch for hateful content and, when appropriate, to respond with similar
solutions.


The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading
organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that
counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.







From bf at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  3 09:08:24 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:08:24 -0500
Subject: N.H. Lawmaker Advocates Killing Police Who Cross the Line: From The 
Message-ID: <3A535BEF.EC1C99C8@mindspring.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA5EN19JHC.html
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From bf at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  3 09:10:03 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:10:03 -0500
Subject: Yahoo gives in to french fascists
Message-ID: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM7Y56JHC.html
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From INTIWARDAL at ANDINANET.NET  Wed Jan  3 09:29:23 2001
From: INTIWARDAL at ANDINANET.NET (ORLANDO OLEAS)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:29:23 -0500
Subject: alt.anonymous.messages 
Message-ID: <3A536172.2E94546C@ANDINANET.NET>


Por favor ayudame lo más pronto posible con 2 preguntas:
1ra) Cuando ya me he bajado el partition magic, existen:
     Nombre de archivo   Dimensiones   Propiedades de la imagen
Descripción
-----------   -------   ----------------   -----------
devotion          8KB
file_id.diz       1KB
firesite          1KB
Hom               2KB
m-ppm6.r00    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r01    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r02    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r03    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r04    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r05    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r06    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r07    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r08    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r09    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r10    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r11    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r12    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r13    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r14       19KB
m-ppm6.rar    2.813KB
Mfd               9KB
QUE DEBO HACER?  COMO LOS HAGO EJECUTABLES PARA PODER INSTALAR EL
PARTITION MAGIC

2da) Que como podré identificarlos si se pasan a otro sitio porque el
suyo me ha parecido estupendo? o a su vez mejor envíenme un e-mail o un
mensaje secreto a mi dirección de correo: kondortra at hotmail.com

Gracias por la ayuda, en este momento tengo que hacer muchos deberes de
la U pero pienso ayudarles, pueden poner su web en www.gratisweb.com

GRACIAS POR SU AYUDA, SE LO SUPLICO NECESITO INSTALAR ESTE PARTITION
MAGIC, MUCHAS GRACIAS.





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan  3 09:43:38 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:43:38 -0500
Subject: Yahoo gives in to french fascists
In-Reply-To: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
References: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b67914a999fe@[207.111.241.40]>



"Blank Frank,"

Please spend a few moments only including a URL. We don't need 
listings of the Tampa Bay Weather Center info and "Premier Clothing 
from Huntington" advertisements in our e-mail.

I'll check back later. For now, your stuff goes to my trash folder.


--Tim May


At 12:10 PM -0500 1/3/01, Blank Frank wrote:
>http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM7Y56JHC.html
>
>
>Site List: Tampa Bay Online The Tampa Tribune WFLA Weather Center 
>Hernando Today Highlands Today FloridaInfo.com  
>
>
>
><http://tampabayonline.net>
> 
><http://utils.media-general.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.tboweb.com/ap/story.htm/23299/Top/t_HuntingtonPF/pc_468x6.gif/39646135323934363361333830626230> 
>
>  N E W S
><http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm>Breaking News
>
><http://ap.tbo.com/ap/florida/index.htm>Florida
>
><http://ap.tbo.com/ap/index.htm>


"B
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From jburnes at savvis.net  Wed Jan  3 11:09:20 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:09:20 -0500
Subject: Yahoo gives in to french fascists
In-Reply-To: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
References: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <01010313101401.00569@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Wednesday 03 January 2001 11:10, Blank Frank wrote:
> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM7Y56JHC.html

I really doesn't matter what Yahoo decides to do.  Ebay is much
larger anyway.  

What I want to know is who at Yahoo decides what material is hate
related?

Does this ban you from selling Bibles, The Koran or the Talmud
on Yahoo? I'm sure you can find racist "Them vs. Us" themes in all those
works.

The comment on glorification of violence was interesting.
Can you sell a video tape of "Blood Sport"?  How about any war
movie or book that glorifies heroism, bravery or the warrior
spirit?  Who decides if they are glorifying or simply portraying
violence as a means to and end.

BTW: You could have spared us from posting an embedded URL.  While
my mail client can handle it, its one of the worst forms of spam.


jim burnes

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan  3 11:22:28 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:22:28 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
References: <3A53606F.3552F6FF@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3A537BE0.4A4E9E96@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>  nefarious activities. Same as Napster. What a stupid shit. Think the
> next prez will do any better picking an AG? Don't bet on it.


   Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked. Asscroft,
the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his ultra-fascist voting
record. Gag. Barf. 


-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From bf at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  3 11:31:00 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:31:00 -0500
Subject: Report: E.Germany Used Nuclear Tags on Dissidents
Message-ID: <3A537D66.1E9E6998@mindspring.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010103/sc/stasi_dc_1.html
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From agl at linuxpower.org  Wed Jan  3 11:52:07 2001
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:52:07 -0500
Subject: FCC Slaps Anti-Drug TV Shows
Message-ID: <20010103200042.B5316@linuxpower.org>


Quotes from http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52094-2000Dec26.html

"Federal regulators have ruled that the major networks should have identified the White House as a sponsor of programs such as "The Practice," "The Drew Carey Show" and "America's Most Wanted" when their plots included anti-drug messages for which the government paid the networks millions of dollars"

"During the past two years, networks including ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox received a total of $25 million for including anti-drug messages in prime-time programming. It was revealed at congressional hearings that the White House reviewed scripts for more than 100 shows to determine if the anti-drug message of a particular program was strong enough to merit payment"

"We have been told by these programmers that they have influenced the programs in order to please the government. That is not the kind of free press we have grown accustomed to," Stroup said

--end--

Aren't you glad that your tax $$$ are being spent so well?
I guess this is what they mean when they talk about educating
the population.

AGL

-- 
The Street finds its own uses for technology.





From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Jan  3 06:08:39 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:08:39 +0100
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010102191028.00ac6c20@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <3A533267.210A9225@ricardo.de>


"Roy M. Silvernail" wrote:
> 
> A quote from http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,20985,00.html:
> 
> " Criminal organizations appear to be using the proceeds of
>     IP-infringing products to facilitate a variety of enterprises,
>     including guns, drugs, pornography and even terrorism. Invariably,
>     when there is intellectual property crime, there is tax evasion and
>     money laundering."
> 
> Note that last sentence.

she forgot to mention child abuse.




From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:57 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26232@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:57 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26228@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:57 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26235@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:58 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:58 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26238@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From subscriptions at webnoize.com  Wed Jan  3 15:26:43 2001
From: subscriptions at webnoize.com (subscriptions at webnoize.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 19:26:43 -0400
Subject: Webnoize Subscription Reminder
Message-ID: <200101040027.TAA28331@smtp.webnoize.com>


Hello,

Below is the copy of your Webnoize user name and password that you requested.

For your information, this subscription will expire on May 21, 2001.

SUBSCRIPTION INFO:
  User Name: cypherpunks
  Password: cypherpunks

To update any of your subscription information (email address, 
phone, etc.), simply visit the URL below to access your profile.  

YOUR SUBSCRIPTION URL:
 http://www.webnoize.com/subscriptions/profile.rs

If you have trouble accessing Webnoize, please send a description 
of the problems you are encountering via email to "subscriptions at webnoize.com". 
You can also contact the Webnoize Subscription Department at 617-768-0400.




From subscriptions at webnoize.com  Wed Jan  3 17:13:05 2001
From: subscriptions at webnoize.com (subscriptions at webnoize.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:13:05 -0400
Subject: Webnoize Subscription Deactivation
Message-ID: <200101040213.VAA28384@smtp.webnoize.com>


This message is to inform you that your Webnoize Subscription 
has been deactivated.

If you did not want to deactivate your subscription, please contact 
the Webnoize Subscription Department at 617-768-0400, or send 
an email requesting your subscription be reactivated to 
"subscriptions at webnoize.com". 




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Jan  3 18:46:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:46:39 -0500
Subject: ADL lauds Yahoo for switching on French Nazi case
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0101031142430.21497-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010103180226.007aa7a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 03:01 PM 1/3/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>ADL COMMENDS YAHOO FOR ACTION BANNING
>NAZI MEMORABILIA AND OTHER HATEFUL ITEMS ON ITS AUCTION SITE
>

How many days before the NAACP starts working on banning 
Confederate paraphenalia?


there is no god and murphy is his prophet

 






  








From comptonjr at txucom.net  Wed Jan  3 20:43:53 2001
From: comptonjr at txucom.net (graham compton,Jr.)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:43:53 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c07608$f29a7a80$470222d1@default>

my dog was poisoned by ricin. do you know the antidote? Thanks, GSC Jr
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From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Wed Jan  3 21:35:09 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:35:09 -0500
Subject: Web sites feed boom in sex trade and slavery 
Message-ID: <7f8c4c9657708a84e9c9b48a7ba0f82f@mixmaster.shinn.net>


Published Wednesday, Jan. 3, 2001, in the San Jose Mercury News 
BY KEVIN G. HALL 

Mercury News Rio de Janeiro Bureau 


RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- At Agencia Roberta, a call-girl service in this tourist haven known for sun and sin, business is booming, thanks in large part to the Internet.

Italians, Germans, Americans and other foreigners can make arrangements for services in advance, even before their planes touch down. The oldest profession in the world is getting a boost from the newest technology.

``It's globalization,'' explains Vanessa, a manager of the online escort service that charges men about $150 for three hours of pleasure.

``Everybody has a Web page. All the prostitutes know about this,'' says Betty, a freelance hooker in Rio who speaks over a rattling television and the laughter of children. She advertises her Web site in the Brazilian newspaper O Globo.

The Internet gained early fame as a tool to arrange consensual sex via chat rooms. But it also has a more sinister function. It has become a tool that aids the exploitation of women who are tricked or forced into prostitution around the world. Digital cameras mean these women find themselves performing sex acts for voyeurs across the globe. With a few clicks of a computer mouse, a man can log on anywhere from suburban Maryland to rural Montana and be transported instantly to a bedroom in Thailand or the Ukraine.

``People can get so selective that they can now see a particular type of woman doing a type of act, and can do that from a global connection out of sight. Over time, it will increase the demand for real sex slaves,'' warned J. Robert Flores, vice president of the National Law Center for Children and Families in Fairfax, Va., and a former high-ranking official in the Department of Justice's obscenity and child-exploitation division.

Law enforcement officials have known that women are often held against their will and forced into sex at Asian brothels or those controlled by the Russian mob, even in the United States. But now there is a new twist: The act can be sold around the world, Flores said.

``The Internet has made the sex market even stronger, and has even made it possible to market women around the world,'' said Flores, who says few Web sites are actually so bold as to advertise sex slaves.

In Brazil, prostitutes have become prime targets for global sex syndicates, who lure them to foreign countries and then enslave them, said Carla Dolinski, a police investigator who leads anti-trafficking efforts in Rio. An estimated 75,000 Brazilian women work in Europe as prostitutes, many against their will. Dolinski said police recently received a complaint about a widely circulated e-mail trying to recruit Brazilian prostitutes for work in Spain. And there are well-documented cases of ordinary women being tricked into traveling abroad for work, only to be forced into prostitution.

One of them is 20-year-old Beatriz, an ebony-skinned woman with a cover-girl smile. She left her home on the rough outskirts of Rio de Janeiro for the tourist island of Lanzarote, near the Canary Islands. She said she thought she would be part of a Brazilian dance troupe, but she ended up enslaved in Lanzarote, forced to perform sex acts for Spaniards and other tourists -- without pay -- until she managed to escape.

Another Brazilian woman, who asked to be called Ana, said she was lured to Tel Aviv, Israel, two years ago believing she'd be a high-paid waitress. After she arrived, her documents were confiscated and she was told the icy truth: She was now an unpaid prostitute at the service of the Russian mob. She was put to work the very afternoon she arrived. Like Beatriz, she escaped. Her captors murdered one of her friends for not cooperating.

Beatriz and Ana did not find out about their ``jobs'' through high-tech means, but Dolinksi fears that e-mail and Internet sites will more easily entice other desperate women to travel across the globe for promises of a better life, only to suffer similar fates.

``If a foreigner has a site offering $1,000 a month, the girls will go. It is difficult to investigate when it comes from outside of Brazil,'' Dolinski said.

Authorities are still trying to document the myriad ways the Internet is involved in sex trafficking, but sites that are little more than marketing tools for traffickers are proliferating.

One Web site, for example, features private chat rooms for men who may or may not be aware of the misery they are supporting. They exchange tips on brothels around the world where authorities say many women are virtual slaves.

``Almost all the girls have babies, but still, they are good!!! If you like the young, but legal, baby-faced Lolitas, you cannot get it any cheaper,'' says one man's posting on the site about his trip to Brazil.

Another site notes that sex with Brazilian minors is illegal. Even so, it suggests that if ``you are under 50 and white, or even better, blond and blue-eyed, try flirting with any girl from 16 years up, in the street, near high schools.''

The site notes that the Brazilian government has cracked down on child prostitution, but it appears to justify sex with minors by noting ``they will either return home and get abused or roam the street penniless eating at garbage dumps.''

The Internet appears to offer countless ways to deceive and promote illegal activities. Flores points out that many sites offer to help find a marriage partner. But, he adds: ``If you go to those sites, the vast majority of them offer nude pictures of these women. The reality is that after you have been on the site for a few minutes, what you really are talking about is buying and selling of women,'' which is against the law.

A Miami-based Internet site claims to be a matchmaking service, by offering ``mail-order brides'' and charging fees to introduce men to foreign women.

The site, which features photos of women along with information about them, tells cybersurfers not to let worries about their own looks or a lack of money deter them from trying to contact women on the sites.

``If you make only $800 a month you will still be making many times more than the average Cuban worker,'' the site says.

A site from Rugby, N.D., called Your Destiny advertises a buyers' market since, it says, there ``is an overabundance of young single women in Russia.''

Authorities are worried about these subtler approaches. Some are legitimate matchmaking services, but experts think many are a ruse for trafficking women into the United States.

The Justice Department estimates that 50,000 to 100,000 women and children have been trafficked into the United States in the past few years. Lawmakers are considering legislation to grant special visas to women tricked into slavery who are willing to testify against their captors.

There are no statistics on how the Internet's mail-order bride-sites have abetted trafficking, but experts believe they have and that traffickers will become even more sophisticated in using the Internet to reap profits from their trade.

At the same time, anti-trafficking activists in Brazil and around the world say they will try to fight back with the very same tool -- tapping the Internet to warn women about sex slavery.

Cristina Leonardo, a human rights attorney in Brazil, is trying to set up a Web site dedicated to providing information about known traffickers. Her ``Project Against the Trafficking of Humans'' would create a national and international telephone center where people provide tips to authorities. 

Through her Brazilian Defense Center, Leonardo also is trying to create online training programs, so police and the courts can share information around the world to better protect women from this modern-day scourge.









From no1special at turbomail.tv  Wed Jan  3 22:44:32 2001
From: no1special at turbomail.tv (no1special)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:44:32 -0600
Subject: Interesting Article (FWD)
Message-ID: <200101040652.AAA19993@einstein.ssz.com>



              Why to Secure Your Computer Network
              -----------------------------------

     There has been a great deal of talk about network security over
the past several years. Almost all of this talk has been about the
"how" aspect of network security - which is to say the practical
steps required to prevent malicious individuals from damaging the
structure and function of computer networks. Comparatively little has
been said about the "why" aspect of computer security. There has been
comparatively little discussion of what, in particular, makes our
networks worth protecting and why we want to maintain the large,
complex, and vulnerable network that the Internet has become.

     In looking into the subject of network infrastructure, security,
and architecture I slowly began to understand what Cliff Stoll (author
of the book Cukoo's Egg) meant when he said the following:

     "So long as you think of someone ripping you off as a 'penetrator', 
   you'll never make any progress. As long as they remained impersonal
   and detatched, the NSA people would never realize that this wasn't
   just a computer being penetrated, but a community was being
   attacked.
     ...I'd never solve the problem until I got involved; until I
   worried about the cancer patients who might be injured by this guy;
   until I became angry that this hacker was directly threatening all
   of us." (Cliff Stoll -- Cuckoo's Egg p. 279) 

     From my perspective as both a user and as an administrator of
computer networks, The most powerful ability of computer networks is
their ability to bring people together. The explosive growth in
the Internet, for example can be largely attributed to the desire
for people to communicate inexpensively over long distances. 

    The "killer app" of the Internet is not, from my perspective, the
World Wide Web, but rather electronic mail. Most of what is being done
on the Web could just have easily been done through other means, but
there is no real replacement for e-mail. Internet e-mail has become,
over a very short span of years, one of the de-facto standard means of
communications both in the business world and in our personal
lives. Every time someone new gets an e-mail account, it is another
reason to use e-mail. The more people have e-mail the more valuable
the network becomes.

    I believe that these personal connections are what makes the
Internet and the various intranets valuable. From this perspective
anything that destroys or reduces our ability to communicate makes
these networks less valuable. To state this more clearly, it is my
belief that networks create value by making it possible to quickly and
safely communicate and share information. Anything which increases the
ability of network users to share information quickly, easily, and
safely will increase the usefulness and value of the
network. Conversely, anything which decreases the ability of users to
communicate and share information decreases the network's value. If
this is true, the most valuable resource on a network is each user's
trust in that network's ability to support their need to communicate
and share information safely.

     In the long run, while electronic commerce is important, it is
nowhere near as important as the system of trust which holds networks
together. The most important thing to preserve is the willingness of
people to trust each other - the willingness of administrators,
engineers developers and other network users to share information with
each other. If you accept this as true, it quickly becomes clear that
the the the following five problems pose the most serious threat to
Internet and intranet security: 

      1) E-mail viruses -- viruses which propogate by electronic mail
         make it more difficult for users to work with attached
         files. These threats make it more difficult for users to
         share their documents and research with other people who they
         may not know well. Right now every systems administrator is
         telling their users not to open attachments that they are not
         completely sure about - this undermines the trust which makes
         collaboration possible. 

      2) Trojan-horse software -- software which has hidden "back
         doors" or breaches a computer's security in a malicious way
         can have a severe negative effect on the ability of systems
         administrators and developers ability to exchange information
         related to their work. This in potentially a very grave threat
         against the open-source community - which depends very
         heavily on the ability of developers to trust each other's
         work.

      3) Malicious Applets (malware) -- Malware creates distrust
         between web page authors and web users. A web user should be
         able to judge a website by the value of its content without
         having to worry about wether his browser will be attacked by
         the author's system. Creating distrust in this arena can have
         devestating effects on the usefulness of the Internet.

      5) UBE (spam) -- Unsolicited bulk e-mail creates an indirect
         threat to the trust which makes e-mail useful. As spam
         becomes more common, filters are constructed which block it
         more effeciently. Unfortunately, it is impossible to
         cunstruct a filter which blocks a high percentage of UBE
         without blocking at least some legitimate mail. This will
         ultimately have negative consequences on electronic mail
         systems.

      4) Cracking attacks -- Cracking attacks, especially attacks on
         e-mail, web and FTP servers, make it more difficult for
         people to attach private networks to the Internet. Every time
         the barriers to entry are raised, the value of the Internet as
         a whole suffers. 

     As we enter the 21st century, computer networks are becoming a
vital tool for reaching both business and personal goals. While there
is no question that we need to secure these networks against those who
would abuse them, it is important to do so in a way that protects the
true value of those networks.

                            Jacques Richer


   
     


******
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From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Thu Jan  4 02:59:18 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 03:59:18 -0700
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/04/bush.freeh.reut/index.html
Message-ID: <5f2a8f67aa4950e568bb903492a5bc20@noisebox.remailer.org>


 
Bush asks Freeh to stay at FBI, USA Today says
  
January 4, 2001
Web posted at: 3:21 AM EST (0821 GMT)


WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The incoming Bush administration has asked FBI Director Louis Freeh to remain on the job, USA Today reported Thursday, citing officials close to the situation. 

Freeh has told Federal Bureau of Investigation employees in an internal memo last month that he intends to complete his 10-year term that expires in 2003 and cannot be extended, USA Today said. 

Freeh declined to comment Wednesday, as did Bush transition officials, the newspaper said. 

Although he is an appointee of President Clinton, Freeh clashed with the president over questions about the transfer of FBI files to the White House. 

He also has differed with Attorney General Janet Reno's decision against launching an independent investigation of campaign finance irregularities involving Clinton and Vice President Al Gore. 

Copyright 2001 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
 
 




From hole1001 at pageice.com  Thu Jan  4 02:10:53 2001
From: hole1001 at pageice.com (hole1001 at pageice.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:10:53 -0500
Subject: Mortgage Rates DROP!! Lenders COMPETE for your Business! -navujnepih
Message-ID: <6e7a4r.42y4wh38vkjqj25n@p5cb3i52.localhost>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Jan  4 02:29:27 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


I read. I even read American stuff sometimes.  In the last week I've
read all or some of 5 books about architecture & housing. Two of them
were American. But, not being American I still have no real idea what
the expected answer to 

>       furnace:basement::stove:______

is. 

I *guess* "kitchen" because in the UK "stove" is an old-fashioned name
for a cooking device, stuff we used before the invention of gas and
electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
range).  But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over
here you put teenagers or washing machines or junk in your basement, not
furnaces. Actually, in London, they are almost always converted into
flats & rented out. 

Anyway, surely basements are urban vs. rural? A way of getting more room
in a restricted space. Do people build them out in the country?

Ken the Ethnocentric.

dmolnar wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > >> but soon realized it was likely.  Tens of millions of Californians
> > >> have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements..
> > >
> > >They've never read a story which mentions such a thing?
> > >
> > >-David
> >
> > "Read" ???
> 
> Oh, right.
> Maybe the SAT is biased towards people who read. Since I read, that
> doesn't seem so bad to me.
> 
> -David (exulting in the logic of ... oh, wait)





From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan  4 03:46:35 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:46:35 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: Ken Brown's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500"
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu> <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>


Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:

> were American. But, not being American I still have no real idea what
> the expected answer to 
> 
> >       furnace:basement::stove:______

I had no idea either.

> I *guess* "kitchen" because in the UK "stove" is an old-fashioned name
> for a cooking device, stuff we used before the invention of gas and

I don't know if it's _that_ old-fashioned the word "stove" is still in
use for this.

On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
for boiling water.

Can anyone confirm whether this is true?

> electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
> range).  But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
> steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over

I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    "my watch with a black face .. has the date in a little hole in the face"





From cmgmba at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  4 07:32:21 2001
From: cmgmba at yahoo.com (cheryl gilan)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:32:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Please remove...
Message-ID: <20010104153221.20042.qmail@web4503.mail.yahoo.com>


Please remove "Shanah Tovah" item which appears after
doing a search of my name Cheryl Gilan.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Cheryl Gilan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan  4 04:34:51 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 07:34:51 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
References: <Ken Brown's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500">
 <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200101041240.HAA23252@smtp6.mindspring.com>


A furnace makes heat, a boiler makes steam or hot 
water. Many small buildings have a boiler that does
all three by combing components in a single unit.
Large buildings have three separate units, and more
for specialized tasks.

In New York City, there is an important distinction between
cellar and basement. Cellars are not habitable while
basements are. The building code definition of a basement 
is that at least half its height is above street level, and that
of cellar is that just over half its height is below street
level. Many residential buildings are designed to
take advantage of that distinction. The rule covers
sloping site conditions to average the difference between
front and back.

The basement level is often called the Ground Floor to
take away any stigma associated with basement.

Much mechanical and electrical equipment is located in
the cellar to maximize habitable space above. Same goes
for the roof.

Terrific expenditures for excavating multi-level cellars are
the norm for high-rise buildings -- even in hard rock as in
Manhattan -- to produce maximum habitable space allowed
under the zoning code, which, in combination with building
health, and environmental codes, regulates bulk, height, light,
air, room sizes, window sizes and a host of requirements
for barely tolerable human habitation -- and legal standards
are ever dropping in squalid, squirming cities for luxury as
well as dirt cheap holes.

We architects are expected to, well, cheat, to maximize what
property owners want at the expense of building inhabitants
and the inccreasingly squeezed and violated public. What 
helps us get away with cheating is massive PR by our 
professional flacks, sophisticated aesthetic and environmental 
theories that claim wretched architecture is beautiful, 
drunken orgies with regulatory officials, revolving 
door participation in standards committees and holding
public office -- to be sure, as practised by all professions, 
in particular those that are solemnly licensed and sworn
to protect the public from people like us.

Occasionally an idiot architect, like this one, tries to go against
the grain, and work dries up instantly and family says dont
be stupid, dont shame us. Then back to doing what church 
and family command to be an outstanding citizen/bandit.

Social planning is a useful deception, twinned with the 
free market -- the two backed beast.




From mike1 at info-prods.com  Wed Jan  3 23:56:32 2001
From: mike1 at info-prods.com (mike1 at info-prods.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 07:56:32 +0000
Subject: natural diet
Message-ID: <3bx65.2yil6o8voy1w32i26@dialup1.info-web-prods.com>



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From Fenton420 at hotmail.com  Thu Jan  4 08:21:17 2001
From: Fenton420 at hotmail.com (Fenton420 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:21:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Get Paid Just to Get E-Mail!
Message-ID: <200101041621.IAA08376@cyberpass.net>


Dear cypherpunks ,

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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Jan  4 05:48:00 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:48:00 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu> <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <3A547EFE.B98796E0@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Steve Mynott wrote:

> Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>
> On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> for boiling water.
>
> Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>

     We have. I do.

>
> > electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
> > range).  But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
> > steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over
>
> I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

    No, those are different forms of central heating units -- a furnace is
forced air, boiler is, uh, hot water or steam.

   Stove is what you cook on -- could also be range, either gas or electric. Or
oil, for that matter, although you don't find those much anymore except as
antiques. I prefer the woodfired cookstove, which we used for many years and are
looking for a new one. Stove is also a part of a car, the sheetmetal piece that
mounts on the exhaust manifold and feeds hot air thru a tube to the airclearner
to prevent carburator icing.
      In differnt areas of the US we have different tems for the thing get water
out of at the sink. In the south it's often called spigot, and in the north
faucet. Also tap. What do you Brits call that?





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Jan  4 10:26:50 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:26:50 -0800
Subject: US Attorney General nominee is pro-privacy
Message-ID: <3A54C06A.FCEFE311@lsil.com>


That is mildly encouraging but what about the 4th and 5th? Is he going
to take the position that in effect we have a right to encrypt all we
want but when so directed by a court or LE Agency we must surrender
plaintext? I know this crap will be sneaking into multiple crime bills
over the next few years. If it hasn't already.

Mike




From cmckie at ottawa.com  Thu Jan  4 10:44:34 2001
From: cmckie at ottawa.com (Craig McKie)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:44:34 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <vog95togen4oohsm2aia6ajsbn867g9920@4ax.com>


Americans do not have electric kettles within the intended British
meaning. They tend not to know what you are talking about. The product
is absent from the shelves at Target and Walmart.

Most Canadian households would have electric kettles where gas cooking
is not involved. Something about tea-making perhaps?








On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:10:14 -0500, you wrote:

>
>
>On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Steve Mynott wrote:
>
>>Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
>>for boiling water.
>>
>>Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>
>
>sigh.  Americans tend not to call something a "kettle" unless it's 
>large, at least a 6-qt capacity.  We don't have non-specialized 
>electric cooking vessels in that size on the market.  
>
>However, we have electric coffeepots that size and larger, and 
>electric "hotpots" of a smaller size (around 2qt) suitable for 
>heating water to brew tea, and electric "rice cookers" of 
>approx. 3-4qt capacity that are entirely suitable for boiling 
>water if you don't want to cook rice.
>
>
>I'd be inclined to think that this is just a terminology issue. 
>
>>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.
>
>Hm.  Not all furnaces are boilers.  Basically we use the word 
>"furnace" here to mean the heating unit for a house.  One kind 
>of furnace is a boiler, which heats liquid that then gets 
>circulated through radiators.  
>
>Other types of furnaces are electrical, or fired by gas, coal, 
>oil, or wood.  Sometimes they heat a gigantic rock that then 
>radiates heat for days (this arrangement is popular in arid 
>northern and northwestern states).  More often they heat air, 
>channeled through a heat-exchanger by a fan and then circulated 
>directly through the rest of the house via ductwork.
>
>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and 
>I haven't seen a coal-fired furnace since I was a child. 
>They're still out there, though; although they are now illegal 
>for pollution reasons here in CA, there are places in the 
>midwest where once in a while you still find them in use.
>
>
>				Bear
>
>
>
>




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Jan  4 09:10:14 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:10:14 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Steve Mynott wrote:

>Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>
>On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
>for boiling water.
>
>Can anyone confirm whether this is true?


sigh.  Americans tend not to call something a "kettle" unless it's 
large, at least a 6-qt capacity.  We don't have non-specialized 
electric cooking vessels in that size on the market.  

However, we have electric coffeepots that size and larger, and 
electric "hotpots" of a smaller size (around 2qt) suitable for 
heating water to brew tea, and electric "rice cookers" of 
approx. 3-4qt capacity that are entirely suitable for boiling 
water if you don't want to cook rice.


I'd be inclined to think that this is just a terminology issue. 

>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

Hm.  Not all furnaces are boilers.  Basically we use the word 
"furnace" here to mean the heating unit for a house.  One kind 
of furnace is a boiler, which heats liquid that then gets 
circulated through radiators.  

Other types of furnaces are electrical, or fired by gas, coal, 
oil, or wood.  Sometimes they heat a gigantic rock that then 
radiates heat for days (this arrangement is popular in arid 
northern and northwestern states).  More often they heat air, 
channeled through a heat-exchanger by a fan and then circulated 
directly through the rest of the house via ductwork.

Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and 
I haven't seen a coal-fired furnace since I was a child. 
They're still out there, though; although they are now illegal 
for pollution reasons here in CA, there are places in the 
midwest where once in a while you still find them in use.


				Bear







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan  4 12:16:25 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:16:25 -0800
Subject: Escaping the Internet Archives - Re: Please remove...
In-Reply-To: <20010104153221.20042.qmail@web4503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010104121625.00a362c0@idiom.com>


At 07:32 AM 1/4/01 -0800, cheryl gilan wrote:
>Subject: Please remove...
>Please remove "Shanah Tovah" item which appears after
>doing a search of my name Cheryl Gilan.
>Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
>Cheryl Gilan

Cheryl - Happy New Year 2001!   Cypherpunks is a mailing list.  
Are you asking us to remove your message from the list archives?
There are multiple archives run by various people around the world -
they're even more decentralized than the mailing list,
plus the list is gatewayed to some Usenet newsgroups,
so there may be Usenet archives as well.  The ones that
are easily located by search engines are in Singapore and Germany.
Also, the google.com search engine caches articles it finds -
even if we delete them, they won't disappear.
Your message to the list, and this reply to it,
will be automatically entered in the archives as well,
joining your original message.

Most archivists don't like to change the past, especially 
when the things run automatically, but the reason you'd be 
in one of the archives is because you sent advertising email
to three of the email addresses used by the cypherpunks list on 
September 28, 2000 using your addresses cheryl at socialplus.com
and your_friends at socialplus.com . 

	SHANAH TOVAH  from your friends at JewishMatch.com 
	(owned and operated by SocialPlus.com).  
	We are a leading provider of customized, turnkey solutions 
	that enables your website users to meet each other for the 
	purposes of companionship, dating and hopefully, marriage. 
	.... [details on your ASP omitted - they're in some archives.]
	Cheryl M. Gilan, Director of Business Development
	JewishMatch.com    mailto:cheryl at socialplus.com
	Tel:  (212) 244-7779    Cell: (917) 523-6750
   	P.S.  Please do not hesitate to contact me at the above numbers.  
	 
The usual reason people ask to be removed is 
so spammers don't find their names on the net.
Given the reason your name appeared on our list,
your request will probably elicit more amusement than sympathy,
but we haven't hesitated to archive your contact information.

Perhaps it was a mistake, or someone gave you bad business advice
on useful ways to increase sales, and you did include your contact
information,
which is pretty unusual for a spammer, but you'll find that
information you've posted to the net never disappears
(unless it's something actually useful that you need badly,
in which case it hasn't disappeared, it's just where *you* can't find it.)
Good, bad, ugly, whatever...  you can't escape your writing.
There're flames out in some Usenet archive that I posted in 1982,
back when it was called Netnews and wasn't carried on the Internet.

	"C'mon, Joe, you can always change your name"

If information never disappears, how do you keep it from
coming back to haunt you?  Best you can do is have a common name -
somebody named Jim Johnson wouldn't have to worry about this.
(Won't work for you.  Sounds like your family's Iranian?  :-)

The next best you can do is use minimize the amount of contact
information and other unique correlatable data you provide, 
and use different email addresses for different things.
So, for instance, Yahoo mail says you live in Orange, NJ -
determining whether that's true shouldn't be hard.
USSearch.com thinks so too, but they just got that from Yahoo.
And your email addresses cmgmba at yahoo.com and cheryl at socialplus.com
were easily linkable by anybody searching on your name
even before this message stuck them together.

By the way, <a href="http://socialplus.com/corp/privacystatement.asp">
SocialPlus.com's privacy policy says you collect a _lot_ of information,
which isn't surprising for a dating meta-service, and says that it's
only disclosed under a variety of conditions, including the 
gaping big hole of telling advertisers when users view their ads
(on viewing, not just on clickthrough.)  It does recommend using your
pseudonymous screen names, and warns that 
	"All postings to the Public Areas become public and,
      therefore, care should be taken in disclosing personal information. 
	Postings made in the Public Areas may not be changed or deleted
      by Visitors or Subscribers."
So please understand that your publicly disclosed information is public.

But, hey, you've come to the right place, and have we got a deal for you!
The Cypherpunks mailing list deals with electronic privacy issues.
You can't fix the past, but there are a variety of privacy-protection 
tools or businesses that people on the list have created that
can help you keep your future information private or less linkable.

http://www.anonymizer.com provides anonymous web surfing -
and it combines well with free email and web hosting offers.
You can use it for free, or pay for better performance and more features.
There's a great list of similar tools at
http://www.sethf.com/anticensorware/smartfilter/greatestevils.php
(it's there because all the censorware products block web anonymizers.

www.ZeroKnowledge.com 's Freedom project provides a variety of services,
including multiple email and web identities and cookie management for a
small fee, 
with cryptographic protection.

David Brin's "The Transparent Society" provides some discussion on how
traditional views of privacy have been made obsolete by technology -
get used to it, and make sure there are webcams pointed at 
government officials so they behave themselves, since they'll be
pointing webcams at you.   Paperback ISBN  0738201448
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738201448/o/qid=978637792/sr=8-1/ref
=aps_sr_b_1_1/103-5076663-8890269


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Jan  4 09:52:25 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:52:25 -0500
Subject: US Attorney General nominee is pro-privacy
Message-ID: <3A54B859.EFFBCE4A@sunder.net>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15795.html

US Attorney General nominee is pro-privacy
By: Kevin Poulsen
Posted: 04/01/2001 at 01:35 GMT

To civil liberty groups, President-elect George W. Bush's pick for US attorney general is an ultra-right wing Christian conservative
who fought abortion and gun control, and blocked the appointment of a black Missouri judge to the federal bench. But veteran cyber
libertarians know John Ashcroft as something else: a once-fierce ally in the successful battle to unshackle encryption technology.


As a US senator, Ashcroft was one of a handful of lawmakers who fought to tear down encryption export regulations -- the federal
rules that kept strong security and privacy-protecting technology out of mainstream commercial products. Ashcroft's views put him in
direct opposition to FBI director Louis Freeh, who argued for years that unrestricted encryption would allow criminals to thwart
lawful government surveillance.


<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Jan  4 09:54:19 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:54:19 -0500
Subject: NSA runs best fab in world
Message-ID: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/15779.html


NSA runs best fab in world
By: Mike Magee
Posted: 03/01/2001 at 13:03 GMT

You might think that AMD's Dresden fab is state-of-the-art technology. You might also suspect that Intel and IBM have some pretty
nifty technology too, lurking in their clean rooms and in their labs.


And you might be right as far as the commercial world goes. But there's a fab, owned by the US government, and run by the National
Security Agency (NSA), which is supposed to knock them into a cocked hat.



<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Jan  4 10:08:04 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:08:04 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB16@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



Central heating did not develop until well after
the US and Britain split. There was little 
technology transfer, so it's not too suprising that
the terminology is different. 

When I moved to Britain in the late 60's, central
heating was still rare enough that it was noted in 
real estate listings. The Brits and other Europeans
developed some rather odd devices to retrofit older
houses....

1. The Geyser (alt pro: geezer). A box attached to
the wall in or near a shower, which provided instant
hot water. Some were gas powered (in which case
a balanced flue was fitted through a hole in the wall
to the outside). Some were electric. Having several 
hundred watts of electricity in intimate contact with 
the water and metal piping of the shower was rather 
nervous making (saw many still in use in Scotland 
this summer).

2. The 'storage heater'. The CEGB (central electricity 
generating board) rates were far lower at night
than during the day or evening. A storage heater
was a metal box, typically 4' wide, 2.5 ft high, 
and about a foot deep, filled with electric elements
and firebrick. During the night, the bricks would be
heated electrically. By morning the box was a 
serious burn hazard, and radiating heat for the rest 
of the day as it slowly cooled. At my boarding 
school, we used to toss matches on the top of one 
and make bets as to which would be the first to light.

Peter Trei






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Jan  4 10:40:11 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:40:11 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
Message-ID: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>


Great Topic!

Steve Mynott wrote:

> Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>
> On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> for boiling water.
>
> Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>
I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea. 

Why boil water for tea on a stove or in an electric "kettle" when you
can put a mug of water in the microwave and have it on the verge of
boiling in 60 seconds? Probably uses less energy too. 

Tea you can pick in your back yard.

Mike





From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Jan  4 10:55:44 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:55:44 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
In-Reply-To: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101041102230.24500-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Great Topic!
> 
> Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> > Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
> >
> > On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> > for boiling water.
> >
> > Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
> >
> I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea.

It is false. I have an electric kettle for boiling water. It gets used for
tea fairly often. (Or it did, until I bought a new tea kettle.)

Why some people believe these urban myths...
 
alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Jan  4 11:06:54 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:06:54 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
In-Reply-To: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:40:11PM -0500
References: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20010104140630.C29095@ils.unc.edu>


Obligatory cypher tie-in: Remember the Lava Lamp used to create
random numbers?  Bubbles in a boiling liquid might also be suitable.

Electric kettles are common in the UK and Canada.  Black and Decker
makes a model (in 1/2 quart and 1-1/2 quart sizes) available in
some department stores, kitchen stores and catalog stores in the
US.

Electric kettles will boil several cups of water faster than a
microwave.  For a smaller amount, it's a toss-up (depending on the
power of your microwave).  If you want to make a full pot of tea,
an electric kettle is faster and more convenient than a stovetop
or microwave solution.  

Energy consumption is favorable or better than a stovetop as very
little heat goes other than to heat water (versus a stove, where
heat disapates around and under the pot).

Like an automatic drip coffee maker, it's wise to periodically
clean the inside of the kettle with a vinegar solution.  This
eliminates build-up from minerals in the water.

Here endeth the lesson.
  -- Greg


On Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:40:11PM -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> > Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
> >
> > On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> > for boiling water.
> >
> > Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
> >
> I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea. 
> 
> Why boil water for tea on a stove or in an electric "kettle" when you
> can put a mug of water in the microwave and have it on the verge of
> boiling in 60 seconds? Probably uses less energy too. 
> 
> Tea you can pick in your back yard.
> 
> Mike
> 





From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Jan  4 12:11:57 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:11:57 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
References: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3A54D90D.6ACE6BC3@sunder.net>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> Why boil water for tea on a stove or in an electric "kettle" when you
> can put a mug of water in the microwave and have it on the verge of
> boiling in 60 seconds? Probably uses less energy too.

Bad idea:

http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/HTW//microwave_ovens.html

"Why does water react  in a violent and dangerous way when overheated in a microwave oven? CA

Water doesn't always boil when it is heated above its normal boiling temperature (100 0C or 212 0F). The only thing that is certain
is that above that temperature, a steam bubble that forms inside the body of the liquid will be able to withstand the crushing
effects of atmospheric pressure. If no bubbles form, then boiling will simply remain a possibility, not a reality. Something has to
trigger the formation of steam bubbles, a process known as "nucleation." If there is no nucleation of steam bubbles, there will be
no boiling and therefore no effective limit to how hot the water can become.

Nucleation usually occurs at hot spots during stovetop cooking or at defects in the surfaces of cooking vessels. Glass containers
have few or no such defects. When you cook water in a smooth glass container, using a microwave oven, it is quite possible that
there will be no nucleation on the walls of the container and the water will superheat. This situation becomes even worse if the top
surface of the water is "sealed" by a thin layer of oil or fat so that evaporation can't occur, either. Superheated water is
extremely dangerous and people have been severely injured by such water. All it takes is some trigger to create the first bubble-a
fork or spoon opening up the inner surface of the water or striking the bottom of the container-and an explosion follows. I recently
filmed such explosions in my own microwave (low-quality movie (749KB), medium-quality movie (5.5MB)), or high-quality movie
(16.2MB)). As you'll hear in my flustered remarks after "Experiment 13," I was a bit shaken up by the ferocity of the explosion I
had triggered, despite every expectation that it would occur. After that surprise, you'll notice that I became much more concerned
about yanking my hand out of the oven before the fork reached the water. I recommend against trying this dangerous experiment, but
if you must, be extremely careful and don't superheat more than a few ounces of water. You can easily get burned or worse. For a
reader's story about a burn he received from superheated water in a microwave, touch here."




-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




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From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com)
Date: Thu,  4 Jan 2001 15:16:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Alianza Estrategica
Message-ID: <20010104211618.17DBF10CD0@ns.luckyscasino.com>

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From slevy at newsweek.com  Thu Jan  4 12:40:50 2001
From: slevy at newsweek.com (Levy, Steven)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:40:50 -0500 
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.347.1576007487.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

:

Hi, John.  Can you do me a favor and spread the word around 
that I'll be talking about CRYPTO at the Upper West Side Barnes 
and Noble (82nd and Broadway) on TUESDAY (Jan 9) at 7:30 pm?

Hope to see you there!

Steven

-----

Cryptome will provide -- free --- unlimited dinner and liquor 
after Steve's talk -- at a local joint not at our penthouse mansion.
RSVP, please, so we can lay in humongous supplies. You
flying in from the Old Country, tea served.

Let me tell you there are serious cryptographers in this 
favela and their cheapskate employers and legal suckbloods
who will cut Steve no slack if not celebrated in CRYPTO.
We've read it and know who's missing, transatlanticly,
and who told Steve the real story behind non-public
encryption.

Did you know about the NYC connection of Ellis, Diffie, Gilmore,
Venona, ITT, RCA, the Black Chamber, and, get this,
Sunder's current deep shit cracking operation of everything
transiting the Atlantic by undersea and space -- run from a
hole under Brooklyn? Menwith Hill is nothing if not Potemkin.

Then there's Harry Hawk and Perry Metzger, don't even think
about it, but your laundered money's not safe no matter how 
carefully cached a havenco. Numbers they factor, big nums, 
really big nums, and sell results to the worst customers on earth.

CRYPTO tells stuff you wouldn't believe.




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Jan  4 13:50:11 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:50:11 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <vog95togen4oohsm2aia6ajsbn867g9920@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3A54EFF2.EC6AED48@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Craig McKie wrote:
> 
> Americans do not have electric kettles within the intended British
> meaning. They tend not to know what you are talking about. The product
> is absent from the shelves at Target and Walmart.
> 

      Really? I bought my electric kettle at Target, although I bought
my son's at a fancy cookware shop called Wire Wisk at the mall. I use
mine for tea, he uses his to boil water for both coffee and tea. 



> Most Canadian households would have electric kettles where gas cooking
> is not involved. Something about tea-making perhaps?
> 
> O>>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

       No, furnace is furnace, boiler is boiler.

> > Bear wrote:

> >Hm.  Not all furnaces are boilers.  Basically we use the word
> >"furnace" here to mean the heating unit for a house.  One kind
> >of furnace is a boiler, which heats liquid that then gets
> >circulated through radiators.
> >

      No, that's a mis-use of the word furnace. Furnaces produce hot
forced air heat. Boilers are boilers, either steam or hot water. 


> >Other types of furnaces are electrical, or fired by gas, coal,
> >oil, or wood.  Sometimes they heat a gigantic rock that then
> >radiates heat for days (this arrangement is popular in arid
> >northern and northwestern states).  More often they heat air,
> >channeled through a heat-exchanger by a fan and then circulated
> >directly through the rest of the house via ductwork.
> >
> >Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and
> >I haven't seen a coal-fired furnace since I was a child.
> >They're still out there, though; although they are now illegal
> >for pollution reasons here in CA, there are places in the
> >midwest where once in a while you still find them in use.
> >
> >
     Good grief -- "boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US", eh?
You ought to come up north sometimes. Hot water or steam boilers are
extremely common in homes. I wouldn't have anything else -- in fact, a
house with forced air heat wouldn't even be looked at by my wife or I
for potential purchase, they give really lousy,drafty performace which
dries out your skin and shrivels house plants and generally makes you
miserable all Winter. Hydronic heating is the only way to go. 
     Not only is it better heat, but it also lends itself more readily
to heat storage if you have a combo wood and gas/oil boiler, where you
use a large insulated tank to even out the heat from the higher temp
wood fires. With a wood furnace, the wood burns up, the house gets
overly hot, then the fire goes out and you're cold. 

     Amazing what passes for cryptic comments these days.



-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From kdscskdc at mail.brm.by  Thu Jan  4 16:51:31 2001
From: kdscskdc at mail.brm.by (kdscskdc at mail.brm.by)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:51:31
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <541.170227.58481@mail.mindspring.com>


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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Jan  4 13:51:41 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:51:41 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: End-2000 Alert: John Ashcroft, Clemencies, Hemp Regs]
Message-ID: <3A54F057.4631BBFE@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: End-2000 Alert: John Ashcroft, Clemencies, Hemp Regs
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:43:09 -0500
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: DRCNet <drcnet at drcnet.org>
To: drc-natl at drcnet.org

                 
*************************************************************
         Drug Reform Coordination Network (DRCNet)
                    Rapid Response Team
*************************************************************

    End-2000 Alert:  John Ashcroft, Clemencies, Hemp Regs
    -----------------------------------------------------
                                                       12/28/00

Dear friend of drug law reform:

As the year winds to an end, with Congress in recess and many
of you on vacation, drug reformers are faced with not one, or
even two, but three urgent action items -- as well as a little
bit of good news.  Please take a few moments to call Congress
and the President this week -- it could make all the
difference in the coming year!

URGENT ACTION ITEM #1:  John Ashcroft

As you may have read in mainstream news accounts, Sen. John
Ashcroft, who was defeated for reelection in Missouri by the
late Gov. Mel Carnahan, has been nominated by George W. Bush
to be the next US Attorney General.  It is vital that his
nomination be opposed.  John Ashcroft is one of the most
ideologically extreme drug warriors, and his appointment would
spell trouble for sentencing/prison policies, medical
marijuana, needle exchange, racial profiling, you name it.  We
will be publishing much more information about him in
tomorrow's issue of The Week Online with DRCNet, and will be
issuing detailed action alerts, by January 4th when the new
Senate is sworn in, for opposing him on a state-by-state
basis.

In the meantime, please call your two US Senators and ask them
to oppose the controversial John Ashcroft nomination.  You can
reach your Senators (or find out who they are) by calling the
Congressional Switchboard at (202) 224-3121.  You can also
visit http://www.senate.gov to look up their web sites and
find out their direct numbers in Washington and their local
phone numbers and locations in your state.  Make an in-person
visit if you can!

URGENT ACTION ITEM #2:  Save Industrial Hemp

Drug warriors at the DEA and ONDCP are trying to ban a whole
range of products made with industrial, non-drug hemp.  Their
motivation, ostensibly, is that hemp interferes with drug
testing and creates false positives, causing problems with
federal drug testing programs more complicated.  Really, they
are simply committed to a bizarre ideology that considers hemp
a drug, even though you can't get high with it.  But in doing
so, they are attempting to administratively rewrite 63 years
of US law that clearly makes an exception for low-THC hemp in
the marijuana laws.  Their actions threaten to make a
perfectly legal, fledgling industry and its patrons all
victims of the drug war.

What is happening is that DEA is planning to publish three
"interim rules," which would immediately become effective
while they go through the longer process.  First, the DEA
proposes to change its interpretation of existing law to bring
hemp products within the purview of the Controlled Substances
Act; second, to change DEA regulations to agree with the new
interpretation; and third, to exempt traditional hemp products
not designed for human consumption, such as paper and
clothing, from being subject to the Controlled Substances Act.
(See http://www.drcnet.org/wol/165.html#hempembargo for
further information on the looming Hemp Embargo.)

For the rules to become effective, several federal agencies
have to sign off on them.  The so-called Dept. of Justice has
already done so, but they still have to go through Customs,
Treasury, Commerce, and the Office of Management and Budget.
Please call your US Representative and your two US Senators;
ask them to oppose the DEA's illegal hemp regulations and to
put pressure on these agencies to reject the regulations.
Again, you can reach all three of them via the Congressional
Switchboard at (202) 224-3121, or look up their DC and local
contact information and locations via http://www.senate.gov
and http://www.house.gov on the web.

URGENT ACTION ITEM #3:  Appeal to Clinton for More Clemencies

Less than an hour after the last issue of The Week Online with
DRCNet was published, the news came out that President Bill
Clinton had granted clemencies to two prisoners whose names
are well known to drug reformers:  Dorothy Gaines and Kemba
Smith, now home with their families.  That's the good news;
read more about it in tomorrow's issue.

The action item is to urge Clinton to release more such
prisoners.  There are hundreds of thousands of nonviolent drug
offenders in the nation's penal institutions, tens of
thousands of them in the federal system over which Clinton has
jurisdiction.  It is wonderful that Dorothy and Kemba have
gotten to go home, but two is not enough!

In particular, the 350+ "safety-valve" prisoners should be
released.  These are people who would likely be free today if
they had been sentenced after the passage of the 1994 Crime
Bill, which allowed judges to reduce the sentences of certain
drug offenders who would otherwise get five or ten year
mandatory minimums.  The law was almost passed with
retroactivity, but that fell victim to a frenzied election-
year intersection of drug and gun politics.  Many similar
people's sentences have begun and ended since then.  There is
no reason not to release them.

Another prisoner who deserves to be released is our friend
Todd McCormick, a medical marijuana patient and activist,
whose health is ill-equipped to handle incarceration.  Of
course, there are many prisoners who deserve to be released,
and we will publish more names early next year.

Clinton has until the end of his term, January 20th, to issue
more pardons or clemencies.  Please call the White House
Comment Line at (202) 456-1111, get through to a live
operator, thank the President for releasing Dorothy Gaines and
Kemba Smith but ask him to release more prisoners, such as the
350+ safety-valve prisoners and Todd McCormick, before his
term expires.

Stay tuned for more information and alerts on these urgent
action items.  Please consider making a donation to DRCNet to
help us provide this service.  Contributions from readers like
yourself are our primary means of financing action alerts,
most of which cannot be paid for out of our educational
grants.  Visit http://www.drcnet.org/drcreg.html to make a
donation by credit card or print out a form to mail in, or
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unsubscribe from DRCNet or change your address, send e-mail to
listhelp at drcnet.org and specify your request.





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan  4 14:38:06 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:38:06 -0500
Subject: Steven Levy Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <200101042243.RAA08485@smtp6.mindspring.com>



From ryu123 at jasmine.ocn.ne.jp  Thu Jan  4 01:18:20 2001
From: ryu123 at jasmine.ocn.ne.jp (yukio isibasi)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 18:18:20 +0900
Subject: kidsex
Message-ID: <000001c07638$bf345d20$e2540bd3@h3p4d2>



-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video/





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Jan  4 19:06:01 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:06:01 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <cd766fc79cb83298874ed3cbd7e9e8a0@melontraffickers.com>


r ead th an F ortune b egan repo rtedly s hed
Le vins bl essed No-Nam e communic ate th e Pe acefire cg i-bin Standar d

============================== =======================================
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Whi le wage s 770517 0 s upplier Or ange wh ile t he Ora nge: 
shutt ing 24677 699 B illion n ews Tra ffic new sletters 
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ht tp:// Onl ine d ocs
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============================== =======================================
Associ ates 
ht tp:// sai d  surpr ise n ytimes
Edgewat er r eports 797345 type Sm artPortfolio w orked d eep slammin g  MAGAZI NE c ancel:  lin ks Wesolows ki 

Director y M icrosoft's Brinkle y hea vy  st ory bu rial A ntitrust cn et t o neti nsights w on't 
st udents ht tp:// Ju no story =n D avid 

============================== =======================================
mo re Stan dard 
treatme nt Mercur y 829190 ml co m Swept_of f_their_feet numb er netw ork L ook 
Micros oft adver tisement
Th ere's P ost wi ll e ven th e Pa ul
Wor th 
Sput nik7 me rcurycenter 2 00 m edia t hestandard




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 16:59:07 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:59:07 -0500
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <000801c07608$f29a7a80$470222d1@default>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104164737.007b1400@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:48 PM 1/3/01 -0500, graham compton,Jr. wrote:
>   my dog was poisoned by ricin. do you know the  antidote? Thanks, GSC Jr 

There isn't one. His ribosomes have ceased functioning.  No more protein
synthesis.  Bummer.






 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 16:59:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:59:08 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104165437.007b0e50@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:29 AM 1/4/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>I *guess* "kitchen" 

sharp lad

>because in the UK "stove" is an old-fashioned name
>for a cooking device, stuff we used before the invention of gas and
>electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
>range).  

Yes, artifact to cook on

But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
>steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over
>here you put teenagers or washing machines or junk in your basement, not
>furnaces. Actually, in London, they are almost always converted into
>flats & rented out. 

So what do you call the artifacts that warm your homes, and where
are they located?  Boilers and radiators?  Embedded wires?  Fireplaces?
Peat fires?  Mad-cow-dung fires?

>Anyway, surely basements are urban vs. rural? A way of getting more room
>in a restricted space. Do people build them out in the country?

Tim enlightened us IIRC that they have to do with the frost line... you
want to have your lowest slab below it.





 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 17:02:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:02:39 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
References: <Ken Brown's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500">
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104165755.007b2450@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:46 AM 1/4/01 -0500, Steve Mynott wrote:
>
>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.
>

A modern furnace might burn oil or natural gas and pump hot air into rooms.
An electric -> thermal device might be called a heater.
A boiler implies a working liquid, doesn't it?

Anyway these were American SAT or GRE questions, you furriners have
your own ways :-)





 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 17:14:41 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:14:41 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB16@exna07.securitydyna
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104170937.007b0a60@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:08 PM 1/4/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>2. The 'storage heater'. The CEGB (central electricity 
>generating board) rates were far lower at night
>than during the day or evening. 

Interestingly, this time-dependency has also forced other technology.

Some years ago, the fuzzy logic people were touting a
(german?) dishwasher which was extra quiet because it used their
tech... which is important because Europeans apparently do their
heavy-wattage usage at night, to save costs.  A foreign concept to
Yanks :-)

Your electric meters must cost more.  I once lived in UC grad housing
that had no electric bill (free electricity :-) because it would have cost
too much to install individual meters.






 






  








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan  4 17:17:12 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:17:12 -0500
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
In-Reply-To: <000501c0758f$4c2d3c60$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010104171616.009c9100@idiom.com>



>Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:
>>http://slashdot.org (it's a vector to Forbes).

At 09:14 AM 1/3/01 -0500, Roy Silvernail wrote:
> <sigh>
> No, that's Slashdot.

Yup.  It's the URL for the front page, and articles roll off
the bottom as new ones are posted, as Jim knows.

However, the project has some very interesting concepts,
and is worth looking at.   Distributed storage,
M-of-N replication, security handled mainly by
storing only plaintext.  I haven't looked at their approaches to
traffic analysis or anonymity, if any.


> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/03/0628240 
> is the actual Slashdot story.
>
> http://www.forbes.com/futuretech/forbes/2001/0108/242.html 
> is a vector to Forbes.

http://oceanstore.cs.berkeley.edu is the project home page.
Publications are at 
	http://oceanstore.cs.berkeley.edu/publications/index.html

I don't recognize the names of the principals on it - 
are there any Cypherpunks who've worked with them?
More of the real documentation is hidden in the
parent project's pages - 
	http://endeavour.cs.berkeley.edu/presentations.html
has <arrrgh> Microsoft Powerpoint presentations with the good stuff.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Jan  4 12:55:15 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:55:15 -0000
Subject: Microsoft apresenta: 2001
Message-ID: <099ad1555200411WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar estes produtos numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/microsoft.htm> . 


A Microsoft, líder mundial na produção de Software
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/SoftwareAndGames/Main.asp?ChannelI
d=6> , lançou a sua gama de produtos para o ano 2001. 
A giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com> , com a entrada no novo
milénio, propõe-lhe associar-se à empresa que melhor personifica tudo o
que as novas tecnologias representam e que está na vanguarda, marcando o
caminho para as restantes. 
No caso de já ser um utilizador Microsoft aproveitamos também para lhe
sugerir 3 actualizações (Upgrades) para o seu sistema operativo, o
Windows Millennium (versões portuguesa e inglesa) e o Windows 98 second
edition (versão portuguesa). 
 
Greetings 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8031>  
4.390$00

Encarta Interactive World Atlas 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8056>  
6.390$00

Encarta Encyclopidia Deluxe 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8641>  
13.790$00

Encarta Reference Suite 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8643>  
21.590$00

Encarta World English Dictionary 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8645>  
6.390$00

Picture-it Premium 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8647>  
6.450$00

Windows Millennium, actualização, versão Inglesa
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=6211>  
23.590$00

Windows Millennium, actualização, versão Portuguesa
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=6212>  
23.490$00

Windows 98 Second Edition, actualização, versão Portuguesa
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8686>  
22.290$00 


Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a
opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos
serviços. 
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From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 17:59:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:59:18 -0500
Subject: NSA runs best fab in world
In-Reply-To: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104175456.007b3210@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:50 PM 1/4/01 -0500, sunder wrote:
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/15779.html
>
>
>NSA runs best fab in world

Commercial fabs are enormously constrained by profitability: 
you could build huge chips except the yield drops, because a single
error usually trashes the chip.  The NSA doesn't need to worry about
profitability.

The NSA gets to play with expensive (GaAs) high-performance processes
that are only used commercially when necessary.

The NSA could make low volumes of chips using E-beam tech which is not
commercially used (because each chip has to be carved individually instead
of printed en masse).  This would let them make features *much much* finer
than
the very hard UV of the optolitho future.  This means faster, denser chips.

And they get to do long-term R&D into far out architectures, processes,
materials, etc.  

Sounds like a fun job, but no stock options, among other problems :-)




 






  








From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Thu Jan  4 18:14:22 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:14:22 -0500
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010104171616.009c9100@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101042112540.888-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> More of the real documentation is hidden in the
> parent project's pages - 
> 	http://endeavour.cs.berkeley.edu/presentations.html
> has <arrrgh> Microsoft Powerpoint presentations with the good stuff.

The list of Project People only has one person on "cryptography" - Steve
Weiss. His paper on security issues for a file system on top of OceanStore
can be found at
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sweis/cs261.ps






From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Jan  4 12:30:18 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu,  4 Jan 2001 21:30:18 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Spooky Post Office
Message-ID: <dbe72695224e1d6cbe14ad70b0a2f7cd@dizum.com>



I've recently moved, many, many miles from my old home, but within the same state.  I did not however inform the post office of my new address, hoping to ditch the 2-3 lbs a week of junk mail and crap.

I did inform most of the important services/places of the address change (credit card co's, bills, etc.)

One magazine, I did forget to inform.  The mag in question is the NRA's America's First Freedom, which spooks me even more...

Among several other mails bearing my NEW address, last night, this magazine arrived at my NEW address, however it bore the OLD address.  

So somehow the post office was able to redirect the mail to my new address without the label on this magazine stating the new address!  

Again, if you move and inform the post office, your old-addressed mail arrives at your door with a yellow sticker with the new address.  THIS WAS NOT the case here!!!

I must say, I'm quite spooked by this!

I have also seen this happen before with snail-mail spam where the address was mangled (wrong street, or wrong number, but same zip code) so I figured that the post office figured it out and got it to me since it was the same particular branch (same zip).  But this is in a totally different zip code, about 50 miles away from my old residence.

How the fuck did they do this?  It's certainly means that addresses are snarfed and kept in a database, but further more, how is the post office delivery guy able to figure out which house to send it to without the explicit address on it?

It's enough to make one very paranoid.

[This was not an old issue of the 1st Freedom.  It was the January 2001 issue and I hadn't received it, so it's not a question of it falling off the moving truck and having some kind soul put it in my mail box.  It was recently mailed just after I moved!]


I've had another (possibly unrelated) strange incident occur at this location.  Shortly after moving in, I drove out to meet a friend for dinner.  As I left the house, I noticed a rental van pull in and make a u-turn so he was parked exactly outside my house.  Around this area, there are ample garages and driveways, so it's very unlikely to see anyone parked on the street.

As soon as I pulled out of the drive way, the van followed for a while.  Noticing this, I pulled off to the right, as if I was going to visit another house.  The van was behind me and hesitated for about 10 seconds behind me, then drove off.  He pulled over about a block infront of me.  As I took off and passed him, I saw in my rear view mirror that he was shining a flashlight out of the right side - aiming it at the house which he now pulled infront of.  As I passed him again, he followed again for a bit, and then made a turn.

This guy was being way too obvious, so it's not a Fed or a spook (unless they want to be obvious.)

I took this as a possible theif and beefed up house security... but this along with the mail incident is just bizzarre...

Any ideas?  (No, I'm not smoking crack or wearing tin foil hats.)




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jan  4 19:35:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:35:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [psychohistory]  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010104213457.14390x-200000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 03:06:26 +0200
From: George Pappas <vagelford at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: psychohistory at egroups.com
To: psychohistory at egroups.com
Subject: [psychohistory] 

Here is a mail I received and I think will interest the group :

STOCK MARKET: FOLLOW THE LEADER
To make money in the stock market, you have to understand risk.
Physicists have been using statistical physics methods to analyze
markets in order to better understand market risks, such as the
probability that a large shift in market value will occur during a
year-long interval. Real markets have a higher probability of
experiencing large changes than conventional "pure chance" would
predict, and econophysicists have suggested many schemes to explain
this fact. The latest idea, reported in the 25 December PRL, points
to the "herding behavior" for which traders are famous. The authors
describe a simple computer model where information networks grow
randomly until entire "clusters" of traders act on the news and then
wait for the next "rumor mill" to grow. The model predicts price
fluctuations similar to those of real markets.
(V. M. Egu‘luz and M. G. Zimmermann, Phys. Rev. Lett. 85, 5659.
COMPLETE Focus story at http://focus.aps.org/v6/st28.html
Link to the paper: http://publish.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v85/p5659/)

Attempts like that one could create a good basis for the development of a theory of psychohistory.

Vagelford
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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jan  4 21:13:04 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:13:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Physical Meet: Austin, Tx. Tue. Jan. 9
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010104230911.14390J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Time:                Jan 9, 2001
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

            The future is downloading. Can you hear the impact?

                                        O[rphan] D[rift>]
                                        Cyber Positive

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

>From owner-hell-outgoing at ssz.com  Sun Jan 23 09:37:10 2000
Return-Path: <owner-hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Received: (from mdom at localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15293
	for hell-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:36:39 -0600
Received: from localhost (ravage at localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15289
	for <hell at einstein.ssz.com>; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:36:24 -0600
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:36:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
To: The Club Inferno <hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Inferno: Austin Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Correction
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000123093433.7178f-100000 at einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-hell at ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hell at ssz.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Time:                Jan. 29, 2000
                     Last Saturday of each month
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        The group does not support a local mailing list
                     right now. Other than the physical meetings, announced
                     on  cypherpunks at ssz.com, there are currently no
                     additional resources. If you have a question please join
                     the CDR and post your question (short and simple please).
                     One of us will respond appropriately.







From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Jan  4 21:57:10 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:57:10 -0500
Subject: Clinton Creates Post to Protect Nation's Secrets 
Message-ID: <c96f76112b32ca6ee71733154af041d3@mixmaster.shinn.net>


By JAMES RISEN
 

ASHINGTON, Jan. 4 � President Clinton has issued an order reorganizing the government's counterintelligence efforts, creating a new czar with a broad mandate to identify potential security threats and vulnerabilities, administration officials said today. 

The directive, signed in the waning days of Mr. Clinton's administration, creates a National Counterintelligence Executive charged with bringing a forward-looking, post-cold-war mentality to counterintelligence. Officials say the post is designed as the counterintelligence equivalent to the nation's drug czar. 

The executive's central task will be to try to determine which secrets held by the government or the private sector are so valuable that they need to be protected from the nation's adversaries. The czar will also try to assess which secrets are of special interest to other nations, and then bring together the F.B.I., C.I.A. and other agencies to determine whether those countries are making efforts to obtain them. 

A spokesman for the Bush transition team referred all questions about the plan to the White House and declined to say whether transition officials had been consulted. Once in office, Mr. Bush could decide to change the plan without Congressional approval. 

But the reorganization and the newly created post have the strong backing of F.B.I. Director Louis J. Freeh, who is staying in his post into the Bush administration, and Central Intelligence Director George J. Tenet, whose tenure also may overlap. 

Administration officials and others familiar with the plan say that the czar will not be in charge of managing individual spy cases and that the Federal Bureau of Investigation will retain its lead role in counterespionage investigations. The C.I.A. will also retain its own counterintelligence center, which conducts investigations within the agency. 

But officials said that the new office of the counterintelligence executive would replace the existing National Counterintelligence Center, which was created after the 1994 arrest of Aldrich Ames, the C.I.A. officer who pleaded guilty to spying for Moscow for nine years. 

On paper, the existing agency also had a broad mandate to coordinate government efforts to identify counterintelligence threats, but several officials said that it had failed to live up to that role. Some critics in the government say that the counterintelligence center never had the stature or influence to command cooperation between government agencies. 

The Clinton administration may name a counterintelligence czar before the president leaves office, officials said today. Although it unclear whether the administration had consulted the transition team, Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the leading Republican on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has been generally supportive of the reorganization effort, a Shelby aide said. 

The counterintelligence overhaul comes in the wake of the furor over the government's handling of the case of Wen Ho Lee, the scientist fired from his job at Los Alamos National Laboratory and charged with mishandling classified information. Although he pleaded guilty to one count related to downloading and copying nuclear data from Los Alamos, other charges were dropped. Officials say that Mr. Freeh advocated the reorganization in response to the flaws in the way that case was handled. 

"This should solve a lot of the shortcomings we have in the present environment," said one senior law enforcement official. 

Officials say that the key to the reorganization will be that the leading counterintelligence official in the government would no longer be simply responding to an investigation of an individual spy case, but would rather be focused on broad efforts to determine what secrets might be most tantalizing to other countries. Those secrets could be at the Pentagon or at a high-tech corporation, and the czar will be able to go to the F.B.I., C.I.A. and other agencies and begin to develop plans to make sure those secrets are secure before any spies have gotten to them. 

The czar's job will be to "identify the universe of stuff that it would be unthinkable if we lost," one official said. 

"This job is to figure out what must be protected. The person in this job, I would think, would spend the first year going around to everybody in the government and business asking what people believe we absolutely have to protect, and then coming up with a judgment about what really are the nation's crown jewels, as opposed to just costume jewelry. Part of the disconnect we have today in the government is that we don't even know what it is that it's unthinkable for us to lose as a nation." 

The reorganization plan has support among intelligence policy experts on Capitol Hill, many of whom say the government is usually on the defensive, simply reacting to the latest spy case. The government has "been spending an inordinate amount of time looking in the rear view mirror," said Senator Bob Graham, a Florida Democrat and member of the Senate intelligence committee who has been pushing for a counterintelligence reorganization. As a result, "we didn't look to see what was coming at us in the future."

Several officials acknowledged that it was still too early to determine whether the czar will have the clout to manage such a sweeping change in the way counterintelligence is managed. That clout will be largely determined by the executive's relations with his office's four- member board, composed of the F.B.I. director, the deputy director of Central Intelligence, the deputy secretary of defense, and a representative of the Attorney General. The czar will also report directly to the deputies committee at the National Security Council and will have access to all secrets related to counterintelligence cases, officials said. 

The power of the czar "is going to depend on who they put in the job," said one Republican congressional aide.







From petro at bounty.org  Fri Jan  5 02:16:36 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 02:16:36 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <p04320431b67b4ee28877@[10.1.1.42]>



>
>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and

	No they aren't. Out of 5 apartments I lived in in Chicago, 4 
of them had steam heat. So did the apartments of most of my friends.

	My grandmother's house in Saint Louis has/had a boiler and steam heat.



-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From minarica at excite.com  Fri Jan  5 06:47:14 2001
From: minarica at excite.com (minarica at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:47:14
Subject: Free Visa Card and Great Referral Bonuses
Message-ID: <200101051245.EAA16012@cyberpass.net>


Hi  ,

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 09:10:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:10:14 -0800
Subject: Announcing Cypherpunks-India
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010105091014.007975a0@idiom.com>

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From gomes at navigo.com  Fri Jan  5 07:35:50 2001
From: gomes at navigo.com (Carlos Macedo Gomes)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:35:50 -0500
Subject: Know Cisco, know toad.com
Message-ID: <001b01c0772d$418b0f40$cf6525a9@cgomesw2k>



I found it a bit interesting that toad.com was used as an example source for
network probes detected by a network based IDS:
http://www.knowcisco.com/content/0735708681/ch01s02.shtml

ymmv,
C.G.

--
gomes at navigo.com
Carlos Macedo Gomes
_sic itur ad astra_
1;




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan  5 10:45:22 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:45:22 -0800
Subject: NSA runs best fab in world
In-Reply-To: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>
References: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <a05010405b67bc57b704f@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:54 PM -0500 1/4/01, sunder wrote:
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/15779.html
>
>
>NSA runs best fab in world
>By: Mike Magee
>Posted: 03/01/2001 at 13:03 GMT
>
>You might think that AMD's Dresden fab is state-of-the-art 
>technology. You might also suspect that Intel and IBM have some 
>pretty
>nifty technology too, lurking in their clean rooms and in their labs.
>
>
>And you might be right as far as the commercial world goes. But 
>there's a fab, owned by the US government, and run by the National
>Security Agency (NSA), which is supposed to knock them into a cocked hat.
>


I wouldn't believe this for a picosecond. Lots of reasons. For one 
thing, most of their needs are for building fairly low-tech (designed 
long ago) PALs, PLAs, gate arrays, ROMs, etc.

Cutting edge communications or CPU chips _are_ extremely 
yield-sensitive, even for a "cost is no object" fab. No way that a 
little tiny fab on Ft. Meade property, as we understand the NSA fab 
to be, is making processing chips to compete with Alphas, Pentiums, 
and UltraSparc IIIs.

Lots of other reasons.

Frankly, we're seeing _way_ too many articles forwarded from the "UK 
Register." This is an entertaining Web site, but well over half of 
the stuff they publish is flaky speculation. The "journalists" who 
write for the Register often don't even get the names of 
industry-standard terms right.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From grandvirtu.com at cyberpass.net  Fri Jan  5 08:39:53 2001
From: grandvirtu.com at cyberpass.net (grandvirtu.com at cyberpass.net)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:39:53 -0500
Subject: I have tried them all........this one is for real....!
Message-ID: <200101051648.IAA02628@cyberpass.net>




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From phil.f.vanaria at usago.ksc.nasa.gov  Fri Jan  5 09:19:05 2001
From: phil.f.vanaria at usago.ksc.nasa.gov (Vanaria, Phil F)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:19:05 -0500 
Subject: When they came for the Jews... 
Message-ID: <114E43AA5F76D411B62E00508B95A9370265E242@kscgrndexc1>


Dear folks at Cypherpunk,

I was at your website and saw the title "When they came for the Jews... "
I know that this is from a quote / poem, but I'm foggy on who wrote it, or
the title of it.
If you could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

Phil








From rachellelacy at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  5 09:52:52 2001
From: rachellelacy at hotmail.com (Rachelle Lacy)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:52:52 -0500
Subject: "sexyfun"
Message-ID: <OE528xS4yxhLvNCssau0000654b@hotmail.com>

FYI:

We don't appriciate being sent these things leave me alone.<br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan  5 10:00:29 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:00:29 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <vog95togen4oohsm2aia6ajsbn867g9920@4ax.com> <3A54EFF2.EC6AED48@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3A560BA8.6F9AD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Amazing what passes for cryptic comments these days.

Maybe it *is* crypto? The email equivalent of a numbers station. Who
knows whether or not:
" Please remove "Shanah Tovah" item which appears after  doing a search
of my name Cheryl Gilan."
is in fact a cryptic message to release an ETA bomb squad somewhere in
Spain?

David Honig wrote:
> So what do you call the artifacts that warm your homes, and where
> are they located?  Boilers and radiators?  Embedded wires?  Fireplaces?
> Peat fires?  Mad-cow-dung fires?

Boilers. No-one I know uses hot air to heat a domestic house though you
do get it in some large commercial buildings.

These days they are smaller, and sit on the wall, often in a cupboard.
They no longer store water, just heat it up on the way through. I should
think that 99% of all new houses and flats use that sort. Mine is in a
sort of broom-cupboard beside the toilet. Older ones tend to be largish
lagged things, often in the attic (i.e. space below the roof).

John Young wrote:
> In New York City, there is an important distinction between
> cellar and basement. Cellars are not habitable while
> basements are. The building code definition of a basement
> is that at least half its height is above street level, and that
> of cellar is that just over half its height is below street
> level. Many residential buildings are designed to
> take advantage of that distinction. The rule covers
> sloping site conditions to average the difference between
> front and back.

500 years ago "cellar" didn't necessarily imply underground at all. When
brick came into general use in domestic houses it enabled the building
of cheap chimneys, which enabled the older "hall" houses to be divided
by a floor into an upstairs and a downstairs. In many medium-sized
houses the family moved upstairs (in larger ones they were already there
at one end of the hall in the "solar") leaving the business (kitchen,
goods, servants, animals) below. Some houses used brick or stone to
reinforce the floor, erecting pillars to support it & that became a
"cellar" whether or not it was below street level. Chimneys, ceilings,
furniture, printing & Protestantism all became common in England in one
generation sometime in the late 15th or early 16th century. OK, the
Protestantism was a little later.

Harmon Seaver wrote:
>       In different areas of the US we have different tems for the thing get water
> out of at the sink. In the south it's often called spigot, and in the north
> faucet. Also tap. What do you Brits call that?

Tap. We find the word "faucet" funny, it sounds as if it should be
slightly obscene, a good example of the US habit of never using a short
word when a long one will do. But when I found myself amongst Americans
I was slightly disappointed to find that they almost all say "tap" these
days. Just as they say "car" instead of "automobile". You are obviously
all watching too much British TV, or listening to too many British rock
bands. You should defend your language against this tide of old-world
vulgarity.




Ken Brown





From mike3 at info-web-prods.com  Fri Jan  5 05:47:05 2001
From: mike3 at info-web-prods.com (mike3 at info-web-prods.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:47:05 +0000
Subject: safe fast diet
Message-ID: <5x4m5d5kxr6.7c7j4ukhih4@dialup11.websitedirectors.net>



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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan  5 10:57:43 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:57:43 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010104165437.007b0e50@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010406b67bc72fd69a@[207.111.241.40]>


At 7:59 PM -0500 1/4/01, David Honig wrote:
>At 05:29 AM 1/4/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>>Anyway, surely basements are urban vs. rural? A way of getting more room
>>in a restricted space. Do people build them out in the country?
>
>Tim enlightened us IIRC that they have to do with the frost line... you
>want to have your lowest slab below it.

Yes, basements are mainly intended to put the foundation below the 
frost heave line. Failure to do this means that as the ground below 
the foundation freezes and thaws and freezes and thaws...the 
foundation moves and cracks and all sorts of bad stuff.

(There are approaches being pioneered in Scandinavia to allow 
suitably-build foundations which don't need basements.)

BTW, in places where the frost heave line is so far below the surface 
as to be unreachable with conventional basements, houses are often 
elevated above the ground. Permafrost regions in Siberia, for 
example. In most places a conventional 2-3-meter deep basement is 
adequate to get below the heave line.


As I noted in my reply to Ray Dillinger--which he graciously 
acknowledged to be correct!--California (and Arizona, and most of 
Oregon that I saw) rarely have basements. None of the houses I looked 
at in south Texas had basements, either. (No frost heave.) Sometimes 
people want them as a way of getting extra space, but this is fairly 
rare. And in many regions the water table is not far below the 
surface, so basements are, as they say, "contraindicated."

Basements have essentially nothing to do with keeping a house cool in 
the summer.

Though basements and cellars did serve a purpose, besides the frost 
heave considerations, of being a place to store vegetables ("root 
cellar") and as a place to retreat to during tornados ("storm 
cellar").

California's energy problems today are market problems, not caused by 
lack of basements!

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From declan at well.com  Fri Jan  5 11:48:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:48:13 -0500
Subject: Where John Ashcroft stands on technology: A mixed bag
Message-ID: <mailman.348.1576007487.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>



http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41008,00.html

   Top Cop Arrives With Mixed Bag
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Jan. 5, 2001 PST
   
   For liberal Democrats, John Ashcroft is a maddening symbol of
   everything wrong with a George W. Bush presidency -- from the former
   senator's staunch opposition to abortion to his alleged insensitivity
   regarding race.
   
   To conservatives, Bush's nominee for attorney general represents
   precisely the opposite extreme: A respected leader who will restore
   integrity to a Justice Department brought low by the Clinton
   administration. Ashcroft opposes background checks at gun shows,
   supports increased penalties for drug offenses and would not prohibit
   discrimination based on sexual orientation.
   
   On technology issues, Ashcroft's record as a Missouri governor and
   senator is mixed. He seems genuinely to believe in privacy rights and
   economic liberty, and has taken a moderate position on intellectual
   property and fair-use rights.
   
   But free-speech groups already are girding themselves for the legal
   equivalent of trench warfare, predicting that newly emboldened
   Department of Justice prosecutors will launch an assault on sexually
   explicit material online. And Microsoft foes fret that the antitrust
   division's commitment to the high-profile antitrust case may wane.
   
   On one point everyone can agree: More than any other Cabinet member,
   the next attorney general will be in a position to make crucial
   decisions with far-reaching effects on antitrust enforcement, privacy
   protections and free speech rights.
   
   "An Ashcroft DOJ could be a decidedly mixed bag for the high-tech
   sector since he will be engaged in a constant balancing act on most
   industry issues," says Adam Thierer, an analyst at the free-market
   Cato Institute who's well connected in Republican technology circles.
   
   "While Ashcroft has a very strong record of support for loosening
   encryption controls, he may be faced with pressure from GOP
   law-and-order types to moderate his views on this and also be willing
   to continue, or even expand FBI efforts like Carnivore," Thierer said.
   
   Make that a near certainty. It's a fair bet that pro-law enforcement
   conservatives in the mold of wiretap-happy Rep. Bill McCollum of
   Florida, who unsuccessfully ran for the state's open Senate seat, will
   view a Republican DOJ as an opportunity to expand government
   surveillance and wiretapping powers.
   
   Liberal Democrats have vowed opposition to Ashcroft's nomination --
   People for the American Way even assembled a detailed criticism of the
   nominee -- but privately confide that they don't expect to
   successfully block his confirmation by the Senate.
   
   Wiretapping and Carnivore:
   
   Under Attorney General Janet Reno, a DOJ panel has reviewed the FBI's
   controversial Carnivore surveillance system and extended a tentative
   blessing. But critics panned the review board as uniformly
   pro-government, as first reported by Wired News, and independent
   researchers refused to participate in the process.
   
   Ashcroft is the former two-term attorney general and two-term governor
   of Missouri. During his time there, he cemented his reputation as a
   solid conservative eager to lower taxes and build new prisons.

   [...]


----- End forwarded message -----




From lists at politechbot.com  Fri Jan  5 12:16:28 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:16:28 -0500
Subject: Where John Ashcroft stands on technology: A mixed bag
Message-ID: <20010105151628.A32509@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----


From plgriffiths at acf-int.co.uk  Fri Jan  5 07:24:53 2001
From: plgriffiths at acf-int.co.uk (Paul Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:24:53 -0000
Subject: Lotus 123  Password
Message-ID: <000801c0772b$abccd200$a9c8a8c0@LANmodem>

SOS
I have lost password to a 123.97 spreadsheet. Any advice would be much appreciated
Thanx
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From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan  5 17:30:22 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:30:22 -1000
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <p04320431b67b4ee28877@[10.1.1.42]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105152821.00b1cb50@flex.com>


At 02:16 AM 1/5/01 -0800, petro wrote:
 >
 >>
 >>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and
 >
 >	No they aren't. Out of 5 apartments I lived in in Chicago, 4
 >of them had steam heat. So did the apartments of most of my friends.
 >
 >	My grandmother's house in Saint Louis has/had a boiler and steam heat.

The hospital in the town I grew up in had one for heating, and emergency
power in case of brown/black-outs.  It was functional and operating, when
as a lad of 15 or so, I ventured down to the basement one day.  Figure mid
1970s, for timeframe.

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan  5 17:31:18 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:31:18 -1000
Subject: Lotus 123  Password
In-Reply-To: <000801c0772b$abccd200$a9c8a8c0@LANmodem>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105153056.00be76e0@flex.com>

Prove that you ever had the password.  If you can.

At 03:24 PM 1/5/01 +0000, Paul Griffiths wrote:
>SOS
>I have lost password to a 123.97 spreadsheet. Any advice would be much 
>appreciated
>Thanx
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan  5 14:20:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:20:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement - January 5, 2001 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010105162041.25692F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:24:09 -0500
From: PA List Manager <statelists at STATE.GOV>
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement - January 5, 2001

Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement
January 5, 2001

The Department of State remains concerned about the possibility for
terrorist actions against United States citizens and interests throughout
the world.  American citizens are reminded of the need to remain vigilant
with regard to their personal security.  This Public Announcement is not in
response to any one particular threat or event but to emphasize the U.S.
Government's ongoing concern for the security of Americans overseas.

The Department of State continues to receive reports that prompt concern
about the safety and security of both official U.S. Government personnel and
private American citizens worldwide.  As always, we take this information
seriously.  As a result, U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a
heightened state of alert.  In addition, U.S. Government facilities have and
will continue to temporarily close or suspend public services as necessary
to review their security posture and ensure its adequacy.

In light of the above, U.S. citizens are urged to maintain a high level of
vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness
to reduce their vulnerability.  Americans should maintain a low profile,
vary routes and times for all required travel, and treat mail and packages
from unfamiliar sources with suspicion. In addition, American citizens are
also urged to avoid contact with any suspicious, unfamiliar objects, and to
report their presence to local authorities.  Vehicles should not be left
unattended, if at all possible, and should be kept locked at all times.
U.S. Government personnel overseas have been advised to take the same
precautions.

U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult the Department of
State's Public Announcements, Travel Warnings, Consular Information Sheets,
and regional travel brochures, all of which are available at the Consular
Affairs Internet web site at http://travel.state.gov.  We will continue to
provide updated information should it become available.  American citizens
overseas may contact the American Citizens Services unit of the nearest U.S.
Embassy or Consulate by telephone or fax for up-to-date information on
security conditions.  In addition, American citizens in need of emergency
assistance should telephone the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate before
visiting the Embassy or Consulate.

This Public Announcement replaces the Public Announcement - Worldwide
Caution of October 12, 2000, and it expires on June 7, 2001.

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs.html




From cecarl at whtt.org  Fri Jan  5 15:02:03 2001
From: cecarl at whtt.org (cecarl at whtt.org)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:02:03 -0500
Subject: HeadsUp!  Return of the Body Snatchers
Message-ID: <200101052301.QAA01215@mai1.ghijk.com>


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 This is Edition 1-1 of "Pharisee Watch" a free internet service of We Hold These Truths. Future weekly editions will bear that title, please look for them.  This is an opt in mailing intended for those who want to receive it.  If you have received this mailing in error, or if you wish to withdraw, please follow the instructions at the end.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE BODY SNATCHER'S REPORT ON ON PLANET EARTH:

Imagine a clandestine business visitor to our planet from another galaxy.  His purpose is to determine if Earth is worth acquiring.  If so, can it be bought or must it be conquered?  Our visitor has done this before and is an expert evaluator.  He is not to be detoured by prejudices or preconceived notions of power or virtue, and he is equipped with ice cold, near perfect insight and wisdom born of a race of conquerors.

Our uninvited visitor quickly determines that a place called America is the unquestioned jewel of the planet.  It boasts the highest growth, industrial might, agricultural production, and capital base on planet Earth.  This space auditor decides that America also has the unchallenged military technology to rule the world, and perhaps the entire galaxy.

Our visitor wonders how this country accomplished this preeminence.  He notes that the period of greatest growth and productivity in America appears to have occurred during a time of cultural freedom and fervor, and that the dominant cultural standard or code is called Christianity.  He measures the predominance of this culture, not by the number or size of relic cathedrals, but by the number of persons who regularly meet in meeting halls called churches.  He notices that many, but not all, of these people worship a higher being.

Our visitor observes with curiosity that at the beginning of the 21st Century there are more churchgoers in America than in the rest of the world combined.  He also notices that Americans voluntarily contribute enormous amounts of their paper currency to others, often quite sacrificially.  His review of American history reveals that the relationship of Christianity to its government and its education system is informal but traditional, dating back to the founding of the country, but it has declined rapidly in the last half of the 20th century.  Furthermore, he does not fail to notice a direct relationship between America's lawfulness and the church attendance habits of its people.

Being of superior intelligence, the intergalactic agent heads straight for the meat of the matter.  Who runs things in America, and therefore, the planet?  He knows from experience that this is the first question he will be asked by his superiors.  He must find out with absolute certainty with whom he must deal, or with whom he must make war.  His commander will want the names of the behind-the-scenes leaders, not the clearly visible functionaries.

This alien visitor, by use of superior technology, can compress a lifetime of study (for an earthling) into a few hours.  He will unravel the control puzzle by listening through some very thick walls, by scanning documents inside sealed vaults of guarded places, and by reading the minds of those who seemed to be powerful.

After making such a study, our brainy visitor arrives at a startling conclusion.  His report states that Americans appear to manage and govern themselves through a complex but seemingly workable process, but this is illusory.  In fact a very small, active minority, identifiable by a different written culture code, rules.  After making a study of the religious documents of this ruling minority, he labels them the "anti-Christians."

The analyst notes that, in spite of the aggressive antagonism of the minority for the Christian majority, the reverse is not true.  He observes that the Christian majority seems unable to recognize the antipathy of their adversary toward them, and that this produces in them a condition that is characteristic of servitude.  He notes, however, that the relationship is not one of slave and owner; indeed, it appears to be one of willing host and benign parasite.

The space traveler observes that those who identify themselves as "Christians" are a clear voting majority; but the anti-Christians (in plain sight of all) control the media, press, banking system and entertainment.  He also observed that anti-Christians occupy a disproportionate number of the functionary and policy setting jobs through which they dominate representative government.  He noted that the anti-Christians seemed to have a hypnotic power over their hosts, causing the Christians to accept anti-Christian culture and the veneration of anti-Christian shrines and symbols.

The observer at first believed that the anti-Christians are a superior race (not unlike his own) with a genetic predisposition for administration and control.  They might be from another planet that had successfully invaded and domesticated the Christian majority.  So overwhelming was the number of anti-Christian functionaries in the highest and most influential offices of Earth that he could not imagine why there are so few Christians in  revolt.

However, this outer space scout is able to dismiss the thought that the anti-Christians are a superhuman race from another galaxy.  A brief visit to the home colony of the anti-Christians, the place he has named "Xion," convinces him otherwise.  There  he finds the anti-Christians were indeed human, possessing all the frailties he has observed elsewhere on the planet.  Despite being a clear majority they ruled Xion quite badly.  He was stunned to find that the anti-Christians, who control the Christians so well in America, live in a state of perpetual war and strife in their own homeland.  Xion's economy is feeble and its currency depreciated, and an impoverished but devout minority faction is in near constant revolt.  The anti-Christian home colony is wracked with inflation and dominated by an unhealthy military establishment.  It survives on doles from other nations and employs systematic state terror and torture to enforce obedience and order upon its dissident minority.

Satisfied with his trip, the planet traveler returns to his space ship to write his report.  He states: "The capture of Planet Earth is a cinch and is well worth the trouble.  Three percent of the population controls everything.  We have only to take over and eradicate that tiny anti-Christian minority and assume their role to run the entire planet at our will.  We will pretend to be them.  The Christians are the key to earth's productivity.  They need not even know our revolution is going on."  His report then warns: "Our success requires complete and total elimination of the anti-Christian faction from all positions of authority.  Their capacity for mischief and abuse of power seems to be unlimited.  Earth's historical records clearly show that the anti-Christians' rapacious greed results from the written code of their culture, which most will not abandon.  There is little room for trust or for any lasting negotiated business arrangement with them."

The intergalactic visitor then comments of the Christians: "The earthlings known as Christians, for reasons I have not yet determined, but which are certainly related to their code of culture, are trusting, malleable, and easy to deceive.  They are not likely to revolt so long as they can be convinced their oppressors are their friends and share the code of their culture."  He concludes: "The best way to control them is the same way the anti-Christians control them-through manipulation of their own church leaders." --Eric Blair

Copyright 2000, may be reproducible in full only, with permission.

We Hold These Truths
4839 E. Greenway Road, #151
Scottsdale, AZ 85254
(http://www.whtt.org) 
480-947-3329

If you wish to help WHTT, please type "Cloudseeder" in the SUBJECT.
To withdraw please reply  "Remove" in the SUBJECT LINE








From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan  5 10:04:56 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:04:56 +0000
Subject: When they came for the Jews...
References: <114E43AA5F76D411B62E00508B95A9370265E242@kscgrndexc1>
Message-ID: <3A560CC8.51853757@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


We don't have a website.  But the quote is supposed to be Martin
Niemvller

"In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the
Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for
the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me - and by
that time there was nobody left to speak up." 

No doubt Tom Vogt has the original auf Deutsch.

Ken Brown


"Vanaria, Phil F" wrote:
> 
> Dear folks at Cypherpunk,
> 
> I was at your website and saw the title "When they came for the Jews... "
> I know that this is from a quote / poem, but I'm foggy on who wrote it, or
> the title of it.
> If you could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Phil




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 18:36:56 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:36:56 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105152821.00b1cb50@flex.com>
References: <p04320431b67b4ee28877@[10.1.1.42]>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010105183656.00941a90@idiom.com>



> >>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and
> >
> >	No they aren't. Out of 5 apartments I lived in in Chicago, 4
> >of them had steam heat. So did the apartments of most of my friends.
> >
> >	My grandmother's house in Saint Louis has/had a boiler and steam heat.

It's strongly related to the age of the building,
as well as climate, fuel costs and convenience, etc.
Most modern construction uses forced-air heating,
it's cheap, responds rapidly, doesn't take up room space, and
the ductwork can be used for central air-conditioning.
My condo in Silicon Valley uses electric baseboard heat,
which was a fad in the 60s and 70s when electricity was cheap,
and has high ceilings so it doesn't need A/C in this climate.
My apartment in Berkeley 20+ years ago had a gas-fired wall heater,
relatively small and efficient for a 3-room place.
My house in New Jersey, built in 1931, had steam radiators,
with an oil-fired boiler that was originally coal-fired;
my sister's house in Delaware is a bit older and 
has hot-water radiators.  

I paid less for winter heat in the Berkeley apartment
than I did for summer electricity in New Jersey;
I pay more now for winter heat in this mild California climate
than I did in New Jersey where the winter gets reasonably cold,
because electricity's more expensive than oil (even with
lower night-time prices) and high ceilings are much better
for keeping cool in the summer than warm in the winter,
plus nobody bothered to insulate buildings out here in the 70s.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Fri Jan  5 15:49:38 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:49:38 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <200101052349.SAA23861@domains.invweb.net>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From udhay at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 05:27:08 2001
From: udhay at pobox.com (Udhay Shankar N)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:57:08 +0530
Subject: [IRR] Announcing Cypherpunks-India
Message-ID: <mailman.349.1576007487.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

***Please circulate to all interested parties***

This is to announce the Cypherpunks-India mailing list. The list is
for cypherpunks in India, and for those who want to track the
convergence of cryptography, politics and society here.

As you know, I volunteered to organise cypherpunks fleshmeets in
Bangalore a few months ago. We had an initial meet with some hoopla,
along with the Linux-India monthly meet in Bangalore. Public
meetings, however, have not happened since then (as opposed to the
private meetings and interactions - you know who you are.). It's been
difficult co-ordinating with people, who are mostly madly busy and
geographically distributed throughout India. This list, therefore, is
a first step towards giving some structure to the various
behind-the-scenes interactions we've been having, and to spread
awareness of crypto and how it impacts commerce and politics today.

The list is kindly hosted by Vipul Ved Prakash, who needs no
introduction to crypto observers here. Vipul also hosts
http://munitions.vipul.net - which is an archive of crypto software
that is mirrored across multiple locations. Vipul also was one of the
finalists in the 3rd Annual Obfuscated Perl Contest with his
dimunitive implementation of the Russian GOST algorithm.

To subscribe, use any ONE of the following URLs:

<http://lists.vipul.net/mailman/listinfo/cpunks-india>

<mailto:cpunks-india-request at lists.vipul.net?subject=subscribe>

In the next few days, as things evolve, we will put up some more
information at the URLs above.

Thanks for all your support, and see you on the list!

Udhay

- --
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
      God is silent. Now if we can only get Man to shut up.


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----- Backwarded
-- 

\|/ ____ \|/
@~/ oO \~@    <http://www.tbtf.com/roving_reporter/>
/_( \__/ )_\
\_U__/

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo at bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at bbs.thing.net

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'






From seawolf_84746 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  5 19:00:46 2001
From: seawolf_84746 at yahoo.com (seawolf)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:00:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Ferry Woman
Message-ID: <20010106030046.24685.qmail@web4104.mail.yahoo.com>




Some time back I posted a note to what I thought was
an individual interested in the Mountain Meadows
Massacre, as it was listed in a thread.

I did not realize that it was going to be posted to a
list, and I do apologize for annoying your members. 
Please accept my apogies.

Gerald Grimmett
Author, The Ferry Woman


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Fri Jan  5 16:04:15 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:04:15 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C41@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From mailbot at sunspot.net  Fri Jan  5 17:02:40 2001
From: mailbot at sunspot.net (mailbot at sunspot.net)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:02:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
Message-ID: <200101060102.UAA24904@msubwa10.usi.net>


Do not reply directly to this email; it is being sent out from an automated program on SunSpot and will bounce.


Wilfred forwarded this story to you from www.sunspot.net,
Maryland's Online Community.

 To view this story on the web go to
http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&storyid=1150520223288

It was sent with the following comments:
     "-- I'd love to have this place
     as a playpen :)
     
     -Wilfred
     Wilfred at Cryogen.com"
     

------------------------------------------------------

Headline: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
Subhead: <box>Surprises: Astronomers who took over an abandoned spy base find remarkable, expensive and often incomprehensible stuff at every turn.

By Laura Sullivan
SUN NATIONAL STAFF

TRANSYLVANIA COUNTY, 
N.C. - Along the long, twisting road through the Pisgah National 
Forest, the first sign that something is out of the ordinary 
is a line of giant transformers. Then, around the bend, a barbed-wire 
fence, guard shack and surveillance cameras protect what looks 
like nothing more than another hill of trees and dense shrubbery. 

It is anything but. 

This is the entrance to one of the National Security Agency's 
former spy stations, a place shrouded in secrets and denials, 
the source of local lore that seems right out of "X-Files." 

What is inside that giant geodesic dome that looks like a golf 
ball? Where do the tunnels snaking beneath the 202-acre site 
lead? Why are the rugs welded to the floors of the windowless 
buildings? 

Few people have been beyond these gates, deep inside the Appalachian 
Mountains, 50 miles southwest of Asheville. 

The NSA abandoned the site to the U.S. Forest Service five years 
ago, leaving behind a deserted minicity in the middle of nowhere. 
Now, some of the secrets are being revealed. 

Last year, with the base boarded up and close to demolition, 
the property was transferred to a group of astronomers in exchange 
for a piece of land in western North Carolina. Over the past 
year, they have begun piecing together the site's past. 

"There 
are things on this site you will never see anywhere else," 
said site manager Jim Powers. "I've never had someone 
come here that wasn't blown away." 

The astronomers, who formed the Pisgah Astronomical Research 
Institute, were attracted by two 85-foot satellites dishes on 
the site - some of the largest in the country - which could be 
repositioned to catch deep-space radio signals and allow them 
to study the life and death of stars. 

When the group arrived in January 1999, they expected a basic, 
albeit large, government facility, but as the weeks passed they 
realized little about the site was what it appeared. 

As they began to install their computers, they found hundreds 
of miles of top-of-the-line cabling running under every floor. 
They discovered that the self-contained water and sewer treatment 
plant could handle tens of thousands of gallons of water at a 
time and the generator could produce 235 kilowatts of energy 
- powerful enough to light up a small city. 

In a basement room of one of the larger buildings, they found 
the entrance to a 1,200-foot tunnel system that connects two 
of the site's main buildings. 

Every inch of floor in more than four buildings was covered 
with two-by-two-foot squares of bleak brown carpet. When the 
astronomers tried to replace it, they discovered it was welded 
with tiny metal fibers to the floor. The result, they eventually 
realized, is that the rugs prevent the buildings from conducting 
static electricity. 

Even the regular lighting looks different, covered by sleek 
metal grids that prevent the light bulbs from giving off static 
interference. The few windows are bulletproof. 

But what fascinated the astronomers was the still-operable security 
system that, among other things, sounds an alarm in the main 
building any time the front perimeter is crossed. The group can 
watch on monitors as cars approach from miles away. 

Inside the site, the agency had taken further measures. One 
area is in a small, sunken river ravine surrounded by barbed 
wire and an additional guard post. Steps, with reflective metal 
paneling to shield the identity of those walking beneath, lead 
down a small hill and wind their way to two small buildings with 
conference rooms inside - both of which once emanated "white 
noise" to prevent electronic eavesdropping. 

What Powers and several others in the group find remarkable, 
though, is not just the expansive network of buildings and security, 
but the extraordinary cost of all they items they have found 
- items the agency discarded. 

He said the extensive fiber optic cabling that runs for miles 
under the floors and through the tunnel system is the most expensive 
on the market. 

When a state regulator came out to issue a permit for a massive 
underground storage tank with a double lining, the astronomers 
said he told them he wished he had a camera. He wanted to take 
a picture to show his co-workers because he had never seen a 
system so sophisticated. 

And the agency didn't just install one water tank; it installed 
two. In a basement room, beneath a system that pressurizes wells, 
is another system just like it. 

"You see this kind of thing everywhere here," Powers 
said. "They never have just one of something." 

Even most of the heavy bolt locks - which every door has - are 
covered by black boxes locked with padlocks. 

Despite the site's stark appearance, there are some human 
- and humorous - vestiges. A bright happy face is painted on 
the smallest of the four satellite dishes on the site, something 
one former employee said was done so that they could "smile 
back at the Russians." 

Inside the tunnels, too, are chalk drawings of animals and warriors 
resembling those found in caves thousands of years ago. 

Aside from the rustling of deer and the wild turkeys that run 
rampant across the hundreds of vacant parking spaces, everything 
about the place is now eerily quiet. 

Paperwork in the guard shack is held in place by a stapler though 
no one has been inside the small building in years. Security 
cameras still work and alarms all still sound, though no one 
is listening. 

When the agency withdrew in 1995, some of the 300 workers, especially 
those who grew up locally and got hired on as groundskeepers 
and mechanics, returned to the nearby towns, though many say 
they are still forbidden to talk about their work. 

Most of the others - the security officers, military personnel 
and cryptologists - left the area for their next Department of 
Defense post. 

The site dates back to the early 1960s, when a scaled-down version 
was carved out to support the space program. It was operated 
at first by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, 
and scientists used the early satellite dishes to track the flights 
into outer space and kept the door open for school groups and 
visitors who wanted to learn more about space missions. 

But suddenly in 1981, the NSA took over from NASA. Local hikers 
and hunters who stumbled onto some of the agency's acreage 
would be suddenly surrounded by armed guards who appeared as 
if from nowhere to escort them out of the woods. Vans with darkened 
windows shuttled past the local coffee shops, fueling rumors. 

The agency's presence was hard on the local employees as 
well. 

Don Powell began working on the site in 1967 as a car mechanic 
and spent the next three decades learning the mechanics of every 
inch of the satellite dishes for the Defense Department. He also 
learned to avoid questions about his work and to lie to his neighbors. 

For 15 years people would approach him and the few other local 
workers, asking what was out there, what they did and, of course, 
what is that golf ball? 

"The kids would always ask, what's in [that] giant 
dome?" 

He would tell them it was "filled with chocolate pudding," 
he said. "I couldn't even tell my wife. I couldn't 
tell anyone." 

The 1995 closure appears to have caught the agency by surprise. 
It had recently cleared several more areas and laid the foundations 
for additional smaller satellite dishes that were never built. 
One newly built satellite dish, which one insider says was never 
turned on, was dismantled and shipped to England. 

The Forest Service tried unsuccessfully to engineer a land trade 
for three years, hampered by a site that posed many problems 
for the few interested parties - from the remote location to 
the expense of removing satellite dishes embedded 80 feet into 
the ground. 

The agency was about to return with a bulldozer when the astronomers 
group, headed by benefactor J. Donald Cline, a scientist and 
former computer executive, offered to buy and trade 375 acres 
along the French Broad River in North Carolina for the spy station. 

What made the site, shielded from interference in a natural 
bowl-shaped terrain, so perfect for the NSA made the site perfect 
for the astronomers as well. They plan to use the satellite dishes 
to read the characteristics of elements given off by dying stars. 

"This area is free of light pollution," Powers said, 
as he stood in the middle of a vast, empty parking lot. "It's 
also clean in terms of electromagnetic interference like cell 
phone towers or things that create electromagnetic noise. 

"And 
we can be sure there won't be any in the future because the 
Forest Service owns everything around here. ... It's easy 
to see why they liked this place." 

Recently, in one of a dozen large empty rooms in one of four 
mostly empty office buildings where the group decided to set 
up shop, four scientists stood around a portable panel of monitors 
and computers, watching the results of a test appear on a screen. 

"It's stardust," said the site's technical 
director, astronomer Charles Osborne. "This stuff is just 
floating around out there. It's the building blocks of life." 

In order to use the satellite dishes, they had to spend months 
trying to slow them down. Both of the 85-foot dishes swing on 
two axes, an extravagance the astronomers suspect allowed the 
agency to swing the face around swiftly to catch up with satellites 
orbiting Earth. The astronomers need the dishes to move no faster 
than the speed of Earth itself. 

But there is much on the site that the astronomers don't 
know what to do with, such as the paper-shredding building up 
on one hill, the large helicopter pad on top of another, and 
down in a valley of well-manicured grass, that giant golf ball, 
similar to those seen at NSA headquarters at Fort Meade. 

Close up from the outside, the ball is a circle of triangles, 
no two identical, that feel like Gore-Tex to the touch. When 
one triangle at the bottom is pushed, several triangles around 
it gyrate, letting off a low grumbling sound of bending metal 
echoing throughout the ball. 

Inside, past a small door less than 4 feet tall, the ball glows 
white, lighted by the sunlight outside reflecting and bouncing 
inside from one triangle to another. 

In its center is a 40-foot satellite dish, cleaner and smoother 
than any of the others. It looks new, though it has been there 
for years. There are unusual numbered patterns on the dish's 
white panels, laid out like a cheat sheet to a jigsaw puzzle. 
The astronomers believe that the triangles vary in size as a 
clever way to minimize the effect of interference that comes 
from patterns. 

Enclosing the dish under such a surface, they speculate, would 
protect it from the weather, and prevent anyone else from seeing 
it or reading the direction it is pointed. 

For the astronomers, though, this curious dish is somewhat irrelevant. 
They need dishes with large faces, like the two bigger ones, 
to read the radio signals of stars millions of light-years from 
Earth. 

>From far above on the perfectly level, perfectly painted helicopter 
pad with a view of miles of mountains and green trees, Powers 
laughed at the differences between the previous owners and the 
astronomers, a group short on staff and scraping for funding. 
He studied the golf ball. 

"You'll go a long way before you find anything like 
that around anywhere else," he said. " ... But nothing 
about this place is what it seems." 






------------------------------------------------------


To view this story on the web go to
http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&storyid=1150520223288





From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Fri Jan  5 17:03:02 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 20:03:02 -0500
Subject: NSA LookingGlass Facility (media)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010105200302.00a7ae68@mail.internet-95.com>


jan 05 2001

News article referencing NSA lookingglass facility, etc... Of both general,
technical, "esch--" and location oriented interest.

http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&stor
yid=1150520223288

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com




From he-who-watches at gmx.de  Fri Jan  5 11:31:08 2001
From: he-who-watches at gmx.de (Olav Stetter)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:31:08 +0100
Subject: When they came for the Jews...
In-Reply-To: <3A560CC8.51853757@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <114E43AA5F76D411B62E00508B95A9370265E242@kscgrndexc1> <3A560CC8.51853757@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <01010520375601.00716@elevator>


Am Fre, 05 Jan 2001 schrieben Sie:
> We don't have a website.  But the quote is supposed to be Martin
> Niemvller
> 
> "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up
> because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the
> Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for
> the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
> wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
> speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me - and by
> that time there was nobody left to speak up." 
> 
> No doubt Tom Vogt has the original auf Deutsch.
---snipped---



I didn't follow the mailings on this topic, but here is the original version (in
case Phil ist interested):

"Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
Ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten, habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr,
der protestieren konnte."



Does anyone know when he said that?


Best regards,
Olav Stetter


P.S.: His name is Martin Niemoeller, not Niemvller.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan  5 17:50:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:50:40 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A560BA8.6F9AD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b67c26d34f41@[207.111.241.40]>


At 1:00 PM -0500 1/5/01, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>Harmon Seaver wrote:
>>        In different areas of the US we have different tems for the 
>>thing get water
>  > out of at the sink. In the south it's often called spigot, and in the north
>  > faucet. Also tap. What do you Brits call that?
>
>Tap. We find the word "faucet" funny, it sounds as if it should be
>slightly obscene, a good example of the US habit of never using a short
>word when a long one will do. But when I found myself amongst Americans
>I was slightly disappointed to find that they almost all say "tap" these
>days. Just as they say "car" instead of "automobile". You are obviously
>all watching too much British TV, or listening to too many British rock
>bands. You should defend your language against this tide of old-world
>vulgarity.

I'm now 49, and "car" has been much more common in these United 
States than "automobile"  has been, in my lifetime.

Further, I often hear Britishisms which are far longer and more 
labored than the American equivalents. For example:

"articulated lorry" vs. "semi"

"redundant" vs. "laid-off"

"Mackintosh" vs. "raincoat"

"Pantechnicon" = "moving van"

(I only learned this last one on a site devoted to Britishisms vs. 
Americanisms.)

Fact is, both dialects of English have longer versions of the same 
basic word than other dialects have.

Which is preferable is a matter of taste and familiarity.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From bear at sonic.net  Fri Jan  5 20:53:55 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:53:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <200101060102.UAA24904@msubwa10.usi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052046170.13788-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




 On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 mailbot at sunspot.net wrote:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Headline: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
> Subhead: <box>Surprises: Astronomers who took over an 
> abandoned spy base find remarkable, expensive and often 
> incomprehensible stuff at every turn.


Very cool...  

I think it would be a profoundly and disturbingly interesting 
problem to try and do a security verification on the place, 
especially since miles and miles of cabling and fiber optic 
are being "inherited" -- do you know everything that stuff is 
hooked up to?  Have you checked every inch of it to make sure 
it's not hooked up to something else too?  Do you even know 
where all of it GOES?

Heh.  These astronomers may never know whether the NSA is reading 
all their astronomy long before they announce it.  Fortunately, 
there's not *too* much motive to keep astronomy secret. 

				Bear




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 18:21:15 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:21:15 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
In-Reply-To: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010105182028.00b17100@idiom.com>


At 01:40 PM 1/4/01 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>Steve Mynott wrote:
>> Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>> On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
>> for boiling water.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>>
>I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea. 

That's because Real Americans don't drink tea - 
we have electric coffeemakers.  The Mr. Coffee machine got
most people to switch over from percolators to drip-filter coffee, 
though some people still drink (yecch!) instant coffee.
Other than tea and instant soups or similar things, 
most foods that require boiling water involve cooking them in pots,
which you do on the stovetop.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Jan  5 20:03:28 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:03:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <200101060102.UAA24904@msubwa10.usi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052207580.7921-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>


On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 mailbot at sunspot.net wrote:

> Wilfred forwarded this story to you from www.sunspot.net,
> Maryland's Online Community.
> 
>  To view this story on the web go to
> http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&storyid=1150520223288
> 
> It was sent with the following comments:
>      "-- I'd love to have this place
>      as a playpen :)
>      
>      -Wilfred
>      Wilfred at Cryogen.com"
>      
> 


No shit. Glad it was rescued from the bulldozers and put to good use
again. 

This has to be the old satellite uplink site and tracking center in
Rosman. It was the major, if not the only, such site on the East Coast for
some time, if I recall. There were intelligence functions even
then, too. We were told the same thing about the dome; among other
things, it was to prevent prying eyes from discerning what the antenna was 
looking at. 

I'm at a loss, though, to figure the need for a level of secrecy
that would preclude acknowledgement that there was an antenna inside, when
everybody knew it anyway. Especially any spies. What, everybody just
forgot all of a sudden? I'm sure the NSA was a lot more restrictive
than NASA, but this is ridiculous. This sounds to me like journalistic
hyperbole, or maybe just a gool 'ol boy having fun at the expense of a 
reporter.     

I took one of those school tours in '69 or '70. I remember them showing
us live network video feeds from Europe and such. No doubt the NSA added
some stuff, but contrary to the breathless implications in the article, at
least from what I remember, almost all that stuff was there back then. The 
tunnels, guardhouses, dishes, the dome, the redundant diesel generator sets, 
fuel bunkers, etc. I can't remember if the carpet was welded down back then,
but that was the level of detail this place was built too.  

It was designed from the start to be self-sufficient and remain
operational in pretty much any emergency short of a direct nuclear
strike. At the time, it was a vulnerable linchpin in the global telecom 
infrastructure, and given the times, no expense was spared or contingency 
unplanned for. 

I highly recommend anyone go see it if they get the chance. I also welcome any 
corrections or additions to 30-year old schoolboy memories. 

jbdigriz 




From SnSTrkn1 at aol.com  Fri Jan  5 20:21:01 2001
From: SnSTrkn1 at aol.com (SnSTrkn1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:21:01 EST
Subject: would like to join
Message-ID: <db.e8234d9.2787f72d@aol.com>

please email me the information needed to join the club. 
Thanks 
-------------- next part --------------
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From barryjohnson at themail.com  Sat Jan  6 00:08:31 2001
From: barryjohnson at themail.com (Barry Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:08:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 300,000 FRESH LIST GUARANTEED !!!
Message-ID: <419.436897.12747662barryjohnson@themail.com>


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From: rolf.hansen at usa.net (Rolf Hansen, SS Knights of the KKK)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:12:34
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Message-ID: <200101060912.f069CEA06934@ak47.algebra.com>


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From p.txt at toad.com  Sat Jan  6 01:48:17 2001
From: p.txt at toad.com (p.txt at toad.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:48:17
Subject: Computer Suplus upto 80% off -- terminals networking printers workstations etc
Message-ID: <200101060647.WAA17659@toad.com>


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hp c1553 dd3 4mm autoloader $299 96 gig 
emerald vas026 9000
exabyte ex4200c
exabyte exb8500 8mm $129, exabyte exb8205 8mm $149
exabyte exb8205xle 8mm $169
exabyte exb8505xls 8mm 14 gig $399 
exabyte exb10-chs 8mm 10 tape autochanger , exabyte exb10-chse 
hp 1300s       $99
hp model 35470 $99 2 gig 4 mm
hp model c1504 $299
legacy 500s $50, legacy 525s $50, legacy 2000s $99 2 gig 
legacy 2200d 4mm 2 gig $59, legacy 4000d 4mm 4 gig $99,
legacy 8000d 4mm 8 gig $199
sony sdt 500
seagate ctl 96gs 96 gig 4 tape autochanger
trimm da5
tecmar datavault 4000 
wangdat 3200, wangtek 6130 hs $99
external enclosure $8
qualstar 6250 9 track $480
dec tu81 $400
6250 tapes New $5 Used $1
8mm 5 gig tapes used $3
3480 tapes new $3 used $1 
6525 tapes new $3 used $1
tk50 tapes new $3 

call 514-744-9665          we accept amex call 514-744-9665   
514-744-9665
dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
dec vax vax
dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
dec vax vax

           Digital Equipment - All prices in U.S. $

New arrivals: vax 4105a  
              rz27 disk
              128 meg
              cd rom
	      vaxstation 4000 60   (35 units)
                  16 meg 
                  rz23
                  rz26
                  vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
	      vaxstation 4000 90
                  16 meg 
                  rz23
                  rz26
                  vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
	      vax 3100 90
	      vax 3100 80
              tf86 tape drives  (dlt)
              tf85 tape drives (dlt)
	      280 gig dlt loader 
              dsrvg-ma   decserver 90l+ 
              dehub-ax
              1 detmm-m  decrepeater 900 tm
	      1 dmhub-mb
              decnis 600
	      dex2r-z routeabout access ew
	      dex2r-m routeabout access ew
	      dez8r-p routeabout central ew
Networking:   dsrvh-n decserver 90m
	      h7082-88
              decserver 700 $475   8 port dsrvw-aa
              decserver 550 dsrvs-c2b03 with multiple cxy08 card
              pmad-a   p/n 54-19874-01 
              pmaz    p/n 54-19876-01 
              rf-delni -aa (fibre optic output)   
              decrepeater 90T   detmr-m   $150 ea    
              decrepeater 90T+  detmr-n   $150 ea    
              decserver 90l+   dsrvg-ma   $225
              decbridge 90+    dewgb-m   
              dehub 90 ax               1
              dehua-nb
              DESPR-AA,PC100-B,DECROUTER 250,LANBRIDGE 
150,LANBRIDGE 100
              DEC200 NICS, pm37b-by, delni-ba, ab74100b7c, 
dsrva-aa,dempr-aa
              h7317,pm20b-ag, dsrvb-aa,lanbridge debet-ac
              70-19062-01, 70-31353-01, devp03, dvrvb-b, demsa-aa
              decserver 300
              vxt2000
              ba350 scsi enclosure
              dsrvb-a
              lxy12
              decserver 100,decserver 200dl, decserver 200md,
              decserver 300 dsrvf-ba
              dsrvf-b,rf-vx20a-m9, di-31cp1-a cpu ka41,lanbridge 
150
              P/N DEC 7876-AA  dehub ax power supply   
              DSRVB-B,DSRVB-A, DEC REPEATER 350 ,P/N DERFVS240A 
20  
              DESPR-AA THINWIRE REPEATER
              DECMUX 300 P/N DM308-a,MUX SERVER 310 P/N DSRZC-B  
                       
              MUXSERVER 300 P/N DSR2C-A            
     

TERMINALS: VT220,VT320,VT330,vt330+,vt340,vt340+,vt420 $99, 
vt510, vt520     
     VRM17-AA VRT19-DA VRT19-HA VR241-A VR299 VR290-DA have 200 
spare lk450

PRINTERS: LA50 
$50,LA70,la75$70,la75s-a2$110,la100$70,la210$99,la324 $300,
          la424 $550,lno3$50,lno3+$75,DECWRITER III $170, RFLAIDR 
$200,
          lp27 $300, lp37,LQP45,lgo1,lg02,lg31

DRIVES      : 
rd53,rd54,tz30,tk50,tk70,tu81,tu81+,tz85,tz86,ra60,ra90
              ese20-ba   - 120mb ram memory drives  4  
              ra650-xa   - 5 1.2 gig sdi drives 1 250 meg ra70
              ra600  2 1.2 gig ra70
              h7142 power supplies 6  
              micro technolory inc. stingray  has 4 rackmount
                 stingray hard drive controllers 1 2.1 gig 
seagate barracuda
                 10 hard drive enclosures
              hsc50  2    sdi disk drive controllers

SYSTEMS:
        vaxstation 4000 60
                vx46k-ad
                cpu ka46
                rz 25e
                video card 5020364-01 d3  5420366
                ram 2 pieces of 5419103  5019079-01

        vaxstation 4000 60
                vx46k-ad
                cpu ka46
                tzk10-aa tape drive 
                2 hard drives  rz 25e
                video card 5020364-01 d3  5420365
                ram 2 pieces of 5419145  5019144-01


        microvax 3100 80
                tz30
                board 54-20652-01
                rz26e hard drive

        microvax 3100 40
                tz30
                54-20654-01 h02
                rz 26e hard drive 
                on onboard ram no modules

        microvax 3100 30
                tz30
                board 54-20654-01
                on onboard ram no modules

        microvax 3100
                dj31esa-a-a01
                tz30
                54-18858-01
                50-18905-01
                54-18905-01
                501982901
                rz24-e

        microvax 4000 600
                tk70
                128 meg ram  ( 2 units l4002aa  ms690-ca)
                kfqsa
                kzqsa
                no hard drive
                
        microvax 4000
                6600r-b2
                m9047
                h7868-a
                desqa-sk
                ms650-bf
                tk70 sf
                tk70
                

        dec 3000 400
                pe401-cb
                rz26
                cpu kn15-ba
                cd rom
                vid 50-21142-01
                ram 8 pieces of 5421139cl 

              vaxstation 8 meg ram modules mso2  p/n 54-16812-01 
 120  
              vax 4000-100a
              vt1300 50
              decsystem 5500
                 2200h-b9 series ba400
                 ms220-ba
                 m7639
                 kn220 m7637
                 kn220 m7638
                 2 rf72, tlz04 (dat) ,
              vax 4000 300,vax 4000 200,microvax 3800,microvax 
3400
              microvax 3100
     VAXSTATION 4000/VLC 24 MEG 20 INCH TRINITRON RZ23L HARD 
DRIVE $    
     VAXSTATION 3100 M38 2 SCSI HARD DRIVES 20 INCH 
TRINITRON......$    
     VAXSTATION 2000
     decstation 2100 pm10a-ba
     DS5000-200 ,ds500--125,ds5000-240,MICROVAX II     

MISC
----
     TK50 MEDIA(new)$5 used $3                          
     DEC 16 BIT ETHERNET $5                     
     DEC 8 BIT PDA508 $3                         
     DEC DESTA                 

dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
dec vax vax


We will beat any ad price on  ibm equipment   prices u.s $

SYSTEMS:
        powerstation 220  type 7011     
        2.5 gig seagate barracuda
        32 meg
        powerstation 220  type 7011       50 units in stock
        500 meg
        32 meg

        powerstation 340 type 7012
        2 scsi drives p/n 55f9915
        scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
        token ring 74f8653
        16 pieces of 4 meg 72 pin (on 2 cards 8 pieces each)
        color card fru 71f1223
               processor card fru 00g3149 cpu 37

        powerstation 370 type 7012
        2 scsi drives p/n 75g3628
        scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
        token ring 74f8653
        64 meg  
        processor card fru 51g9441

        powerstation 410 
        2 gig scsi drive
        scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
        token ring 74f8653
        64 meg 
        color video fru 88g2749 609
        token ring fru 7280422

        powerstation 320
        XSTATION 150 15 UNITS
        XSTATION 120 100 UNITS
3com 3c319 rj45 and db9 isa 16  130 units
ibm auto 16/4 fru 9873456 rj45       approximately 200 units   
isa 16
olicom 00055797-12671-73c-opin  fcc id an055h6800   rj45 and db9 
 isa 16
dca 014253 rev a 500 units rj45 and db9 mca and isa  
smc 8115t c d2 4996  400 units rj45 and db9 isa 16
madge smart at ringnode 152-034-04   152-028-14  100 units 
intel rj45 and db9 isa 16 200 units
card swiper 4717 3
ibm 16/4 short card 
ibm 5250 8 bit 
hp jetdirect j2555-60003  
hp jetdirect j2373-60001  db9  
hp jetdirect ex j2383  db9 rj45 external unit with power supply 
proteon 1392+  16 bit isa tokenring  
ibm powerstation 320h 32 meg 16 ports for terminals
ibm sierra xterminal model 120 8 megs ram p/n 950-000024-000
terminal ibm 3151, 3192,3196,3197,3471,3472
terminal ibm 3472 color (same tube /flyback) as 3477
terminal ibm 3477, 5085-1, 5272,3178c,
terminal ibm p/n 83x7944  color
controller ibm 
3174-1r,3174-1l,3174-11r,3174-51r,3174-61r,3174-91r
mau ibm 3299 2 8 port coax
ibm 5242,4224  $200,4230,4234,4324,3812 2,3287, 5210 go2
ibm 8228 10 port token ring p/n 6091014  50  
ibm irma2
ibm auto 16/4, ibm lanstreamer pci tokenring
lexmark 4109, 4029, 4039
proteon 
7202,33g4389,6091014,4459,4869-009,4869,3174-g2454,3274-41d
5362,3268 2,4869-002,4869,3299-2,7010,3044-d02,9404 as400
23-p2899,3820,2380,2381,33g4389
madge token ring cards
mca network cards  16/4 
mca adaptek scsi cards  also future domain $20
assorted other microchannel cards 
token ring cables 
proteon cnx 500 and cnx 600 routers dual ethernet token ring 
model

inkjet
------
kodak diconix inkjet portable - runs on batteries or adapter$19
hp thinkjet.................................................$19
hp deskjet..................................................$29
hp paintjetcolor continous feed ............................$39
hp paintjet xl  - takes wide paper..........................$79
kodak 300w - takes wide paper-- 
epson sq2500 takes wide paper SUPER HIGH SPEED HUGE CARTRIDGE

dot matrix
----------
epson lq570  lq 570, fxl070 fx 1070 
epson lq2500 color - computerized 7 layer form 
(reg$1099)......$129
toshiba p341,p351...................................$call
mannesmann tally mt330, mt390 ,mt86, mt660, mt661, t6045 
nec p9 color dot matrix commercial................
printronics mvp, p300, p600, 9012 (1200 lines per minute - WOW)
genicom 1010, 1020 , 3210 3820 3840
genicom line printers 4410xt, genicom 4410, genicom4490..$call
okidata 82,ml182,ml320,ml321,ml380,ml395,ml393+,ml591,ml2410
hp ruggedwriter high speed commercial dot matrix 
         accepts input from tray or tractor (reg $1500)...$199
fujitsu dl2400, 5600 and many genicom, datasouth,mannes tally, 
tektronix phaser iipx, phaser cp, pahser 220, phaser iii, 4694
qms colorscript 100 model 10    serial parallel scsi
qms colorscript 230 11x17, magicolorcx color toner csl 1000-1
qms ps 2210 black and white 11x17 serial parralel scsi
50 tektronix toners reordr no. 016-0898-00
qmd colorscript 100 color toners 4 color  $20 u.s
part number 1730451-013                      $20 u.s.2

we will beat any ad price   mac note the prices in u.s. $
                            ---
        mac laserwriter iint $59
        mac laserwriter      $29
        nec postscript laser , 4 meg ram $49
        hp paintjet 300  wide carriage color postscr inkjet $59
        mac mono monitor $   9 color 13 inch $19
        20 inch trinitron monitor for mac $199
        20 mono monitor for mac radius tpd/19 $49
        radius pivot $55
        scsi syquest 88 meg $25, scsi cd $10, scsi enclosure $8,
        scsi ribbon cables $1, external cabels $5, terminator $5
        old mac machines iicx etc $40  mac se $15

3com 3c509, 3c905
3480 TAPES NEW TENEX BRAND $3
QUALSTAR  6250 TAPE DRIVE (SCSI) $350
chipcom 5006c - 5000m-ctl
                5104m-f1b
lan/wan optimizer series 5000 model 5010l p/n acx067g110001l-r
gandalf premier lanline 5220 p/n 7707z1
gandalf mux 2000 16 port  10  
gandalf mmux 2000 8 port 10  
gandalf swith mux   5  
proteon cnx 500 router  3  , cnx 600 router  1 unit
newbridge 1032 mainstreet p/n 90-0533-01 channel banks 32 port
newbridge 1082 8 port
gandalf starmaster
lots of gandalf ldm and lds series modems  lds120a, 
lds120e,ldm309a, ldm409a 
ibm 3174-11r, 3174-51r ibm 3174-61 ribm 3174-91r
intel satisfaction modems, satisfaction 200, 400, 400e , 
pcfm6401v, pccb6201a 
bicc datanetworks thin ethernet repeater model # 1121-0 20  
comterm c6274-201
dg 1348 as tape drive with wheels
dg mv4000 dc
digiboard 8 port isa bus  $150
digiboard digichannel c/com-16
digital rflaidr looks like genicom c1
disk mini digital  rl02 
docking station compaq 2684
docking station nec op-560-4701
docking station texas instruments 2581447-0041  c2
docking station toshiba deskstation ii 10 u
dot matrix color nec p9xl
dot matrix oki 321 d2
dot matrixa centronics 359 p351 p353
dot matrixa dg 6494 
dot matrixa dg 6594 c1
dotmatrixa dataproducts tcg 202   10u a2
dotmatrixa datasouth ds220, ds180
dotmatrixa dg 6594  c1
laser postscript, qms ps820 turbo , ps825 turbo 
modem gandalf lds 100, lds120a,lds120e, lds300, lds 309a, lds289
modem gandalf lds 125, mlds, ld140,pacx2000, lds300, lds 389
modem motorola cdm264 modem
lattisnet 2510, 102, 3000
telex 87
wang 75lis12en
harris l191-s1
dest pcsan200
texas instrument silent 700
allied telesis centrecom 3008
sytek 20/100
npi 521
general datacom de-1
codex 2600
puredata pdc520a, pdc608a, pdc620a
comterm c6274-201
telex 076 controller
questronics cpa17
ast&t 6386 wgs
intergraph 340
datability vcp1000
css 486te-33
consultronics fdm-3
microtel bb5007-ca8575
control data corporation cyber 910
memorex telex 1374-51r
aries iii image analysis system dipix
telebit t2500
baytech printer controller
develcon 7330
byteway 2000
cimterm c6274-201
seikosha sbp-10ai
allied telesis 5000, 3025, 3024, 3008, 3008sl
data general mv 12000
memorex telex 2062
analogic 68
codex 6006
telenet tp3/11-3025
datawatch dwx86
canstar ncu 200-00-020
datasouth performax a600
dataproducts bp 2000, bp 1500, dp 1000
gandalf access server pcm2022
                      npm2021 
                      lds2123e  <----4
                      asm2081
                      gcm2091   <----3
                      sgm2094
motorola uds model 201b rm16m m
adic 530/h
allied telesis centre com 470
local data interlynx 3287
fifth generation systems lc-01
penril 2332-01
ostrocom e299 squeezplexor
gandalf minimau
synoptics lattisnet 102 powersupply
                    408 fault status
ncr 3000
canstar fibre optic hub
otc 2160
cisco igs-r multiprotocal router
qms csc-100
castelle lanpress  95054
honeywell hds2
3com 3c1351
3com linkbuilder ecs10 type 1200-1 with 12 port utp cards and 
management card
motorola 6005
ods 296
telenet tp3/11-3025
delta data 8700t
memorex telex 2062
at&t 1600
ncr 3400
alpha industries um3000
system industries csr176700, csr176300, csr176200
fibrecom 9600r
chipcom 9314s-st fibre optic hub
sytek 2550
comterm dc8101-101
local data ld 3278
telebit t2sa
gandalf 3790z1
net 3com multiconnect repeater 10u   p/n 3c588
net allied telisys centercom 810 (switch?) 
net david systems 6102-01 40 port  rck
net gandalf lds120, lds140, lds260, lds309, ldm309, ldm409, 9106, 
2200226
net gandalf mux 2000 mmux2000
net gandalf 6808a rev d1
net gandalf 500540101 rev 1b
datability 500540101 rev 1b
net gandalf p/n 427421 mux?
net gandalf pacx 2000
net gandalf sm9600-d
net gandalf sm9600-oyr
net gandalf starmaster, access server xl
net gandalf swithmux 2000
net memotec mpac mp8002  60 port x25 switch multiprotocol
net memotec mpac sp8300
net memotek sp8000 18 port
net micom m2002
net newbridge mainstreet 1082 in box
net paradyne p9600
network memotek sp800  18 port
plotter calcomp plotmaster
plotter hp 7550a
protec bytelink plus  24 port peripheral sharing device 1 meg 
             p/n 24p/1m  50  
puredata 12 port hub + 12 network cards $195  
qms 4 color toner rolls 2 per box $80 per box p/n 1730451-013
ricoh 150 opc  20   $30
sony gdm-1962b $190 20 inch 1024x768
sony gdm-20d10 (sun) $250
tectronics hc02 video copy processor (mitsubishi p71u)
terminal memorex telex 1471 , 1472, 2391g 
terminal tecktronics 4205 14'
terminal volker craig 6220   
terminal wyse 30,50,60 75, 85,99gt,160, 185,285,325,350   
terminal linc mc3, mc5
terminal televideo 905, 955, 965
terminal qume ,qvt31, qvt51, qvt-101, qvt101+
toner color tektronic 016-0898-0050 40u
adacom cp150+
shiva lanrover/8t
newbridge p/n 1032-8706-0259 32 port channel bank 2u
timeplex microplex x25 pad 24 port 
newbridge 1032 mainstreet    p/n 90-0533-31a
citoh ci4000, ci15000, c310
m3358a ,ibm 2381, 2391, 5202, 2178, 3192, 5202, 
facit b3100, 4509, 1513
epson lq570, lq1170, fx1170, fax 1050, lq2550, lq2500, sq2500, 
sq2550, etc
panasonic kxp1592, kxp1624,, raven pr248, pr9101
alps 324 printer for dec systems 50  
rf delni with fibre optic interface 50  
fibre optic tranciever (digital brand) 43  
gandalf 500540101
datability 500540101
gandalf 6808a  revd
intel netport 306515-004   token ring db9, 306514-003   ethernet 
rj45 ,306482-004   ethernet aui
xircom pocket ethernet adapter II pe3-10bt
seiko smart label printer plus slp1000p  slp1100
general datacom diz ai
general datacom dei 
human design systems hds2000
memotec isu5600 v.35 dte
synoptics lattisnet model 2500
telebit netblazer st
emerald rap150-9000 tape drive
hp28681a 10:10 bridge lp
hemulex jetdirect netjet ethernet  pwb-er2010276-01
hp jetdirect j2550,j2552,j2555,j2382
pacifac data jetcard/mio 8 serial 1 parallel
banyan jetdirect 6034100 20322e rj45 coax
asp serverjet asp sj400 4 rj45 or 8 rj45
datability vcp200
datability vcp1000
valtek pst250f 250 meg external tape parralel/serial
mita ldc550
3com h46891 ethernet card 16 bit
3com etherlink ii 16tp
3com elii/16 tp, el2tp 8 bit, etherlink 3c509c parralel tasking 
adaptek mp401 autoswitch
hpiiisi i/o card 28644-60002
pacifac postscript  for laserjet ii,iii pd-016907   
ibm mca microchannel video xga-2 fru 8tf4774aha1640 aha-1640 
adaptek isa 16 bit aha1542
puredate arcnet pdc508a
ascend mb4bri option nx56isdn 4 x 128k ----8x64k
memotek da3224
intel etherexpress 16tp 16 bit ethernet card
pioneer drm-604x 6 cd changer scsi 
telenet to8010-16
seikosha sbp-10a1 
xyplex maxserver 6020
qume qvt 31,101,101+, 102, 203+
datawatch vm14
volker craig vc8325, vc6220
AT&T 705 MT
mai basic four 4313
memotec mc504
canon
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Jan  5 17:40:03 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  6 Jan 2001 02:40:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Timelyness
Message-ID: <4db87ee787a0859efc5e1f4f993ac4e4@dizum.com>

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From han_don8 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  5 18:53:31 2001
From: han_don8 at hotmail.com (han don)
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 02:53:31 -0000
Subject: Solution to riddle 666 clear not cryptic Jah guidance
Message-ID: <F202LZWUXHOQGZaoojY000106cd@hotmail.com>


This is the riddle to the mystery of the beast numbered 666.

In the Book of Kings (and 2nd ChronicleV9:13) Solomon counted out his gold 
and it measured 666 cubits.

The calf was the creature/beast made out of gold (and precious stones) at 
the foot of the mountain when Moses descended. The calf being symbolic of 
our unhealthy craving for unecessary commodities such as gold, gems, milk 
and blood.

The gold standard is used in the world economy ( no-one shall be able to buy 
or sell without the mark of the beast.)

The great whore is symbolic of individuals and institutions which perpetuate 
the myth/illusion that you somehow need gold or diamonds to sanctify a 
marriage, you don't. The vow is sacred and sanctified by our honour and 
faith in God. Bringing token payments of gold and gems into the act sustains 
the corrupt and exploitative jem and gold trade. Furthermore it is in 
essence the same principle as the prostitution act of material for 
affection.

The manifestation of all these false values display their destructive and 
corrupt nature. Rainforests and their irreplacable, incomparable beauty, 
housing Gods finest creations are being massacred at a frightening rate the 
main reason being to feed cattle and to prospect and exploit natural 
resources.

The gold and diamond industry creates a perverse and inhuman imbalance of 
wealth (Sierra Leone's bloody civil war was fought for control of the 
diamond trade.)
The world economy with its unfair trade policies and debt traps (using the 
gold standard) has created a world where 40,000 people AT LEAST die daily 
unnecessarily due to hunger.

This theory holds up in the Chinese Bible or 'I Ching' also where the 
number666 refers to the mother. As we know the cow acts as a mother to 
humans by suckling human children (a perversion of Gods laws of nature.) 
Here also the quality of the 666 reference is receptive again gold is 
receptive and the hexogram is bottomless symbolising the bottomless pit.

This is THE SOLUTION to the riddle. Whether you choose to believe or not is 
up to you but this is IT. If you have faith in God and the Bible the command 
therein is to withdraw and refuse to trade in such commodities. THis is not 
just religeous fervor it is the important realisation which is crucial to 
the survival of our species and the living planet itself which as it stands 
is on the brink of annhilation.
I dislike to use strong language but you are warned as of NOW!

This was confirmed to me when the 8 angels of the revelations appeared to me 
(and no I wasn't on drugs). Pass this info on and spread the solution.Don't 
be fooled into disbelieving because of the simplistic nature of this 
solution as it's simplicity is its greatest strenght.
May God guide and protect !
I urge you do not hesitate to pass this info on.
Amen.

(The fruit of the knowledge of good n evil in line with the fairly universal 
law  -actions which provide pleasure and nourishment to others are in 
essence healthy and nourishment to the self- excludes all true tree fruits, 
therefore the only fruit borne by a tree which is destructive must be the 
friuthead of parasitic fungi. This therefore is the fruit of knowledge and a 
warning to the use of fungi. From hallucinogens to yeast in bread (again all 
referred to in REV: maddening wine of impure passion -this also referring to 
the obvious 'bitter sex'). Note Christ never ate bread with yeast in fact 
all he ate was fruit and grains (unleavened). Not fish as is widely 
misconcieved in fact when he was being followed by the crowds he preached 
and then with the 'miraculous' catch gave people the option stay and eat of 
the flesh or come and follow him. AS for the feeding of the 5,000 with the 
few loaves and fishes he fed them with his words and satisfied them and the 
uneaten bread and fish was returned to the basket this then fed the fish 
keeping them at the shore while the boats fished hence no catch and some 
more snacks of food into the water as the boat resailed brought them out 
again into deep water- hence the miraculous catch.)
He holy grail has also been revealed to me but is too precious to reveal 
yet.
more info at-  http://realjesus.homestead.com
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com  Sat Jan  6 00:26:59 2001
From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:26:59 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
References: <200101052349.SAA23861@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <012901c077ba$dc4c8a80$eec11d97@seminole>


I have sent a copy of this message to a cyber crime officer in Tallahassee
FL.


----- Original Message -----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Hahaha" <hahaha at sexyfun.net>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:49 AM
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!


>
> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated
and
> polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a
> *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the
Seven
> Dwarfs enter...
>
>





From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan  6 00:37:31 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:37:31 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
In-Reply-To: <012901c077ba$dc4c8a80$eec11d97@seminole>
References: <200101052349.SAA23861@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105223559.00bd9a00@flex.com>


Why?  sexyfun.net traces to a .au domain, and Graeme Platt is already tired
of hearing from me.

At 03:26 AM 1/6/01 -0500, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote:
 >I have sent a copy of this message to a cyber crime officer in Tallahassee
 >FL.
 >
 >
 >----- Original Message -----
 >X-Loop: openpgp.net
 >From: "Hahaha" <hahaha at sexyfun.net>
 >To: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
 >Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:49 AM
 >Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
 >
 >
 >>
 >> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated
 >and
 >> polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a
 >> *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the
 >Seven
 >> Dwarfs enter...
 >>
 >>





From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Jan  5 18:40:09 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  6 Jan 2001 03:40:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Powdered Sugar
Message-ID: <d7879a56b9d8240b614c14581de7bcf3@dizum.com>

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From barryjohnson at themail.com  Sat Jan  6 06:07:07 2001
From: barryjohnson at themail.com (Barry Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 06:07:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: YOU WON'T GIVE UP !!!
Message-ID: <419.436897.37642269barryjohnson@themail.com>


Hello Friend,
       
In order to succeed in an on-line business, you need to know these 5 things:            

#1. In order to make SALES, you need TRAFFIC to your site.
#2. Success with SEARCH ENGINES and F.F.A. LINKS is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. 
#3. YOU are 1 of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who received this ad.
#4. It cost me NOTHING to reach you with this ad.
#5. This ad earns me a FULL SECOND INCOME.

                                         
                    ******* IT IS A FACT THAT E-MAIL MARKETING WORKS !!! ****** 

I have been working online now for about 3 years. I have tried everything from 
F.F.A. links to classified posts and banner exchange programs...all unsuccessfully.
Then it hit me. I needed people to FOCUS on my ad ALONE and without distraction. 
So I began to compile thousands of targeted e-mail addresses and I used a free 
bulk e-mail program to send my ad out. 
                                                                
                                                             $$$$ JACKPOT $$$$$
                              
                  IN ONE DAY I ACQUIRED OVER 3,000 HITS TO MY WEB SITE !!! 

                                  ++++++++++YOUR SEARCH IS OVER+++++++++

Last week, I successfully extracted over 300,000 FRESH EMAIL ADDRESSES from 
people all over the country, who have expressed interest in On-line Business 
Opportunities. 

         $$$$$ ((((((((( THAT'S OVER 300,000 TARGETED LEADS !!! ))))))) $$$$$$

Imagine how many hits you would get if only 1% of these people were interested in 
your offer. Lets see...

                                 300,000 x .01 = 3,000 HITS TO YOUR WEB SITE !!!!


{{{{{ STOP WAISTING YOUR TIME ON PROGRAMS THAT DON"T WORK !!! }}}}}
 
           
              ****** THESE PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR OFFER !!! ******
                                     
We not only believe that you will get thousands of hits to your website, we 
guarantee it !! It's easy to give a guarantee like this because these people want to 
do business with you !!!
                         
                                         Are you ready for a TRAFFIC EXPLOSION ???


                                                   http://emailexplosion.iwarp.com 


DISCLAIMER: This e-mail was sent to you because you or someone who uses 
your computer has expressed an interest in business opportunities. We apologize 
if you are not interested in our ad. To be permanantly removed from our database, 
kindly reply to this e-mail with the words "REMOVE ME" in the subject line. Your 
name will be promptly removed from our database. 

-God Bless !!!





From ichudov at algebra.com  Sat Jan  6 07:14:15 2001
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:14:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: remailers still operating?
Message-ID: <200101061514.f06FEGa03359@manifold.algebra.com>


I would like to have some fun on usenet, but I lost track of the current
state of anon remailers. Are they still operational?

	- Igor.




From chilibean6 at home.com  Sat Jan  6 07:28:06 2001
From: chilibean6 at home.com (Jose Lopez Jr.)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:28:06 -0600
Subject: SB3100 internal menu?
Message-ID: <000f01c077f5$44cdba40$a6ab0e18@hmmnd1.in.home.com>

Did you ever find out the program to acces the cable modem?

If so, can you email me the answer.
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan  6 07:52:11 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:52:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.519 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010106095208.25692X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:25:48 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.519

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 519  January 4, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
Stein          

PHYSICS NEWS STORIES OF THE YEAR.  Our top three
stories represent one definite sighting and two near misses: the
discovery of the tau neutrino (Update 495) and the report of
statistically-poor but fascinating evidence for quark-gluon plasma
(Update 470) and the Higgs boson (502).  Other top physics
events for the year 2000 include (in roughly chronological order
through the months) the resolution of the astrophysical x-ray
background into discrete sources (467); the ability to guide atoms
around "atom chips" (469, 486); all-optical NMR (472); quantum
entanglement of 4 ions in a trap (475); the fabrication of a "left-
handed" composite material, one possessing both a negative
electrical permittivity and a negative magnetic permeability (476);
the best map yet of the cosmic microwave background, showing
that the curvature of the universe is zero (479, 481); the
observation of quantum heat, particles of thermal energy moving
down wires (481); the best measurement, by a factor of 10, of the
gravitational constant G (482), with a corresponding adjustment in
the mass of the Earth; the first-time measurement of gravity at the
micron distance scale as part of the search for extra dimensions
(483); the quantum superposition of superfluid currents flowing in
both directions through a SQUID (492); a record number of
daughter particles made in heavy-ion collisions at RHIC (505);
numerous advances  in quantum cryptography (480); light slowed
to 1 mph (472); advances in delivering drugs and genes with
ultrasound-activated bubbles (487); and the discovery that
entangled photons can defeat the diffraction limit (503).

NONCLASSICAL LIGHT.  A feature of quantum theory is that
objects should have both particle and wave properties.  Thus,
things usually encountered as particles such as electrons or atoms
show their quantum, or nonclassical, nature in the form of
wavelike effects.  Conversely, light, which can usually be
described by a wave equation, shows its nonclassical side by
acting like a particle.  In most optics experiments, even those
involving lasers, the light produces only classical effects which
can be described using 19th century electromagnetism.  For
example, a grocery scanner diode laser emits about 10^15 photons
per second.  When such a stream encounters a half-silvered
mirror, half of the light will be reflected, and half transmitted. 
With so many photons, the individual particle nature is hidden
when the photons are detected at photodiodes sitting behind each
exit port of the beamsplitter. If the original laser beam is replaced
with a source of single photons, then the story is different: a lone
photon might well have an equal chance of going towards either
detector, but it will ultimately register in only one, a sure sign of
quantum behavior.  One can probe these issues more deeply by
using entangled photon pairs.  Kevin Resch, Jeff Lundeen, and
Aephraim Steinberg at the University of Toronto send ultraviolet
(UV) light into a special crystal in which a single UV photon can
produce two red photons in a process called down-conversion. 
One of the red photons is vertically polarized and the other is
horizontally polarized, and therefore the photons can be time-
delayed relative to one another by varying the thickness of
birefringent material (which can swivel a light wave's orientation)
traversed by the photon.  By adjusting the delay between the
photons, the researchers were able to change the number of
photon pairs emerging from an interferometer without changing
the intensity, or brightness, of the beam.  Owing to the intrinsic
nonlinear response of the detectors this quantum interference
effect then became apparent in the counting rate at a single
detector (an effect never before observed) and not just in the
coincidence rate between a pair of photodetectors.  The
researchers believe that the ability to observe such nonlinear
responses in photodetection at the single photon level may be
useful to the study of decoherence in photodetection and for
providing an experimental basis for developing a more accurate
theoretical description for photodetection.  (Physical Review A, 1
February 2001; Kevin Resch contact: 416-946-3162,
resch at physics.utoronto.ca.)




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Jan  6 07:14:58 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:14:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052207580.7921-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101060938430.24016-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>


On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> 
> I highly recommend anyone go see it if they get the chance. I also welcome any 
> corrections or additions to 30-year old schoolboy memories. 
> 
> jbdigriz 
> 

Ok, I'll correct myself then. It never was a commercial satellite
communications center, but the 85 ft. VHF dishes sure could pick up commercial 
traffic. It did do telemetry for a lot of vital birds, too. 

It was the 2nd of NASA's STDN (Spaceflight Tracking and Data Network) VHF
telemetry stations, opening in 1963. The first was outside Fairbanks,
Alaska. Mostly for unmanned LEO satellites like GEOS-3, but also used when 
needed on manned missions like Apollo-Soyuz. Data could be routed in real-time 
to other NASA telemetry stations like Wallops Flight Center for digitizing and
processing, or taped and mailed. So there were some serious phone lines 
running into the place even then. 

It was mainly used for NASA missions, then, and some DOD stuff. I'm
sure some other TLA's had some presence, as well. You can easily
see why the NSA would be interested in it, at any rate, given what we know
about Echelon now. And it was already built to the nines, isolated,
secluded, and crawling with security systems. 

Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute has a website at
http://www.pari.edu that has more informatation and lots of pictures. See
especially http://www.pari.edu/ToursHistory.htm.

jbdigriz    





From info at domain4u.st  Sat Jan  6 13:46:17 2001
From: info at domain4u.st (info at domain4u.st)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:46:17 -0600
Subject: Lock in your domain name now!
Message-ID: <200101062146.f06LkHA00504@ak47.algebra.com>




Register your domain name as a .ST domain too!

Just go to:  http://www.nic.st


.ST stands for:

.Strasse, .Street, .SiTe Domain ... etc.

- Take care of your trademark and your domain name!

Secure the domain name in a minute!

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3 year: $75 USD
5 year: $100 USD

Register at:

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option.


And remember - Domains are forever


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Anybody, for example any person, company or organization in the world
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country.

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******************************************************************
UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS NEWSLETTER
Please go to: http://www.nic.st/unsubscribe
******************************************************************

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From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Jan  6 07:43:57 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:43:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <200101060647.WAA17659@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101061643420.9677-100000@dns.interklub.pl>



Pozdrawiam 
Mateusz Ziolek

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001 p.txt at toad.com wrote:

> exporter deals systems 25cents/pound printers 12 cents/pound 
> we can supply you equipment by the piece/pallette or container 
> 
> DO NOT press reply to this email-for more info call 514-744-9665 
> or check our website at http www.merasel.com  which has a 
> downloadable catalog and an email option.
> 
> We will BEAT all ad prices on computer surplus -- give us a try
> 
>     A1 50 Stinson, Ville St. Laurent , 25,000 SQ FT wharehouse 
>     COMMERCIAL COMPUTER EQUIMENT SPECIALISTS  --- upto 80% off
>  terminals  - dat - lasers/ parts - line printers- networking
>  	COMPLETE UNITS -- PARTS -- REPAIRS DEC WYSE IBM HP
>                   W E----- A C C E P T----------A M E X
> Specials:
> ----------			
> HP laser $39   hp ruggedwriter 480cps (list $2000)  $139 
> OKI MICROLINE $49 2 meg matrox pci $6 scsi card $9 3com 3c509 $9
> WYSE ibm DEC qume HP terminals from $75 (over 5000 in stock)
> color tektronix $290 ($3000 REG)  QMS color $290 8mm dat $59
> fujitsu dl2300 $39 dl3400 $69 dl5600 $149 dl1100 $29 4mm dat $49
> epson lq570 $69 (reg $249)  epson lq1170 $79 (reg. $299)
> epson dfx 5000 $349  APC UPS $40 STAR reciept printer $59
> DEC HP GENICOM IBM FUJITSU EXABYTE PRINTRONICS LEXMARK WYSE OKI
> 
> REPAIRS -----> laser, monitor, printer repairs. Fusers $39       
>       
> 
> LASERS ---> OVER 1000 LASERS IN STOCK - SPARE PARTS/FUSERS/TRAYS
>             HP Jetdirects from $39 ($200 list) lexmark marknet
>             HP datasouth DEC oki LEXMARK ibm GENICOM qms etc
> 
> PRINTERS---> fujitsu ibm dec hp epson genicom lexmark OKI 182 $49
> 
> TERMINALS--> 5000 terminals in stock HP DEC IBM WYSE LINK NCD etc
> 
> NETWORKING-> DEC IBM HP CISCO Cabletron (120 port hub $200) 
>              8 port hub $19 3com 3c509 $9 ethernet tokenring 
>              fibreoptic routers wireless satelite etc
> 
> TAPE ------> dat dlt 6250 HP SEAGATE ARCHIVE IBM QUANTUM DLT $249
> 
> Workstation> IBM HP SUN DEC ibm rs6000 model 220 $149 etc
> 
> List is partial if you don't see it ask for it we have it or can 
> get it
> WE PROCESS 350 PALLETTES (SKIDS) OF COMPUTER EQUIPMENT PER MONTH
> COMMERCIAL EQUIPMENT--UP TO 80% off -OVER 5000 TERMINALS in STOCK
> 
> 
> NEW ARRIVALS:
> mylex cacheing raid level 5 pci card 72 pin ram 3 channel $225
> 2 meg matrox pci $12
> 500 3com 3c509
> cisco 2502 20 units 
> cisco ws-x3001 $500 u.s. (new in box)
> cisco igs 
> cisco lgs 
> intel es500mfx $380 new in box  2 port 100base-fx module f/500 
> series switch
> here is the baynetworks/nortel products.
>  
> 
> Model 5110 Supervisory Module  
> Model 5001 950W AC Power Supply 
> Model 5399
> model 5378-f
> Part# AD1004004 Model 5308PS 24-Port 10BASE-T 
> Part# CX1004019 48 Bay DSP Modem Upgrade Kit  North America (T1).
>  
>  We have 14 skids of current model cabletron networking
>  equipment.  List price of about $10,000,000 75% off of list 
>  All is the MMAC line there is ethernet , tokenring fibreoptic ,
>  rj45 and isdn. some part numbers are:
>  
>  irm, irm3 (over 500 units ),fdmmim, esxmim, emme, tprmim-22
>  emm-e6, fdcmim-08, efdmim,
>  sehi 34 24 port ten base t with lanview rs232 console(125 units)
>  tpmim-22 (over 500 units), tpmim 34 (over 500 units)
>  fot-f2 fibre optic tranceiver, tp-4 rj45 transceiver(over 500) 
>  tpt fj45 tranceiver     (over 500 units)
> 
>         ms-283 bar code gun (200 units) fits termial or pc.
>         cisco igs, ags lgs , 3640 , 2502, 2503
>         annex cm1009e47 
>         at&t comsphere 3000
>         bay networks cm1001070  mlb 360-084-901 option 1         
>     360-072-936 rev a5
>         36 port remote annex 4000
>         bay networks cv1001018 adv. remote node 100 base fx arn
>         bay networks cv0011013  token ring expansion
>         bay networks 450-1sr mda media dependent adapter module  
>                100 base sx
>         bay networks ae1001005 p/n 111375
>         baynetworks an flash card corporate suite p/n112639 rev a
>         bay networks ae1001010 p/n 113359
>         bay networks db1501e16   (MARLIN) ISDN ROUTER two channel 
>         bay networks model 800
>         memotec da3214
>         memotec netaccess 900
>         motorola mp router 6520 voice, data , fax
>         synoptics 3395a, 3308ba, 3313sa
>         teleglobe dm1000, dm2200, MP 9000
>         uds ddsmr64, ddsmrs,3266
>         xylogics clam na/d
>         xylogics 4002-pn1  (REMOTE ANNEX 4000)
> 	tec b-602-gs20-us label printer
> 
>  
>                                    HP items - all prices U.S.
> 
> laser trays over 2000 in stock --- fusers hp ii,iiisi,4si,4,ETC
> hp differential drive towers 4 x 4.3 gig barracuda 
> 			     4 x 2.2 gig fujitsu 
> 			     4 x 1.2 gig $249
> 
> HP D4943A NETRAID PCI RAID LEVEL 5 ADAPTER NEW IN THE BOX
> 
> hp 9000 e35
> hp9000 f20
> hp 9000 800/140 857s
>     (upgrade a2464a)
>     a1703-60022
>     28696-60001
>     28640-60001
>     gpib
>     802.3
>     scsi (se) parallel
>     c1504b 4mm dat drive
>     c2474s 2 units
>     1150-1865
> 
> advancestack 27288a router 430, ROUTER 230, ROUTER 440
> hp28673a bridge
> hp4995a lanprobe II
> hp2564b printer 
> hp 2563c
> hp 2563a
> jetdirect j2550 j2552 j2371 j2555 jetdirect ex etc 
> router 430, 440
> all jetdirect cards $100 except j2555 $60
> 27286a router tr (cisco 4000 equivalent)
> 27289a router fr
> 28682A  FIBRE OPTIC HUB
> 28674A BRIDGE
> 28688B HUB
> C2261A STORAGE ENC
> 27270A ROUTER
>     CARDS : ENET 27271
>    SYNC 27270
>    SYSI/O
> 
> hp 9000 series 700 128 meg  a1421x a2278b
> eisa card #1 (looks like a digiboard ) bit 3 computer corporation 
> model 487-1-201
> eisa card #2 fddi fibre optic transciever crescendo 
> communications model
>                                                              
> es-9211-xf
> eisa card #3 daughter board of above card
> hp ux 4 cd set release 9.0 part #b2826-13681
> $call     have 2   in stock
> 
> 20 inch trinitron for the above (manufactured sept 1994) $400
> 
> hp 28682a fibreoptic hub plus
> for hp dat drives and auotoloaders check our dat section
> 
> iiisi jetdirect for banyan rj45 and coax
> rj45 jetdirect for hp III
> coax jetdirect for hp III
> jetdircet combo for iiisi/ivsi 
> 
> !!!!!!!  HP RUGGEDWRITER  $190
> hp apollo 400 16 meg 425 hard drive $400
> hp 20inch and 17 inch trinitrons   
> 500 NEW hp II and III trays
> 60 NEW boxed HP IV multitrays
> 200 NEW HP 3si/4si trays
> hp under sheet feeder for hp IIP/IIIp
> Terminals HP 700/92,700/22, 700/94,700/96es  
> HP 98578
> DOT MATRIX HP 2631G
> DOT MATRIX HP2563A  
> HP 7958
> INKJET HP PAINTJET Xl
> PLOTTER HP 7550A plotter , 7475a, draftmaster, draftmaster ii
> PLOTTER PENS FOR HP (VACUUM SEALED SETS ) $5
> SYSTEM HP 7936
> SYSTEM HP MICRO X3 3000
> 
> TAPE DRIVE HP 9144
> TERMINAL HP 35731A 
> TERMINAL HPD1181E
> HP LASERJET I   $40 HP LASERJET II  $80 HP LASERJET IID $130
> HP LASERJET IIID $195 HP LASERJET IIISI 17PPM  $370
> HP ivSI 17PPM 600DPI HP LASERJET 2000 40 PPM 11x17
> 98546a
> draftmaster sx plotter
> draftmaster I plotter 7595
> draftmaster II plotter 7576a
> 2345a dtc
> 2463a
> laserjet 2000
> hp 4955a logic analyser
> 
>                    DAT and tape drives  Prices in U.S. $
>                   I WILL BEAT ALL AD PRICES ON DAT DRIVES !!!!
> 
> The following list is incomplete for items not listed please call 
> 514-744-9665
> 
> scsi ribbon cable $1
> scsi centronics to db25 $5
> scsi mini to mini $10
> scsi centronics to centronics $5
> 
>  SUPER SPECIAL EXABYTE EXB8200 8MM DAT $59 $u.s.
>  adaptek 1522 scsi controller $10
>  adaptek 1542 scsi controller $15
>  future domain scsi controller $10
> exabyte exb210 autochanger 600 gig !!!!!!!  $1900 u.s.
> dlt 20 gig               $350
> dlt 30 gig $450
> dlt loader 280 gig $4000
> hp 35470 4 gig 4mm dat $99
> 150 meg archive, wangtek (5150) $25         case $5 extra
> archive 150e, archive 2525s ,archive 4320nt,archive 
> 4324np,archive 4350xt
> conner ctd8000e-s
> hp c1553 dd3 4mm autoloader $299 96 gig 
> emerald vas026 9000
> exabyte ex4200c
> exabyte exb8500 8mm $129, exabyte exb8205 8mm $149
> exabyte exb8205xle 8mm $169
> exabyte exb8505xls 8mm 14 gig $399 
> exabyte exb10-chs 8mm 10 tape autochanger , exabyte exb10-chse 
> hp 1300s       $99
> hp model 35470 $99 2 gig 4 mm
> hp model c1504 $299
> legacy 500s $50, legacy 525s $50, legacy 2000s $99 2 gig 
> legacy 2200d 4mm 2 gig $59, legacy 4000d 4mm 4 gig $99,
> legacy 8000d 4mm 8 gig $199
> sony sdt 500
> seagate ctl 96gs 96 gig 4 tape autochanger
> trimm da5
> tecmar datavault 4000 
> wangdat 3200, wangtek 6130 hs $99
> external enclosure $8
> qualstar 6250 9 track $480
> dec tu81 $400
> 6250 tapes New $5 Used $1
> 8mm 5 gig tapes used $3
> 3480 tapes new $3 used $1 
> 6525 tapes new $3 used $1
> tk50 tapes new $3 
> 
> call 514-744-9665          we accept amex call 514-744-9665   
> 514-744-9665
> dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
> dec vax vax
> dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
> dec vax vax
> 
>            Digital Equipment - All prices in U.S. $
> 
> New arrivals: vax 4105a  
>               rz27 disk
>               128 meg
>               cd rom
> 	      vaxstation 4000 60   (35 units)
>                   16 meg 
>                   rz23
>                   rz26
>                   vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
> 	      vaxstation 4000 90
>                   16 meg 
>                   rz23
>                   rz26
>                   vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
> 	      vax 3100 90
> 	      vax 3100 80
>               tf86 tape drives  (dlt)
>               tf85 tape drives (dlt)
> 	      280 gig dlt loader 
>               dsrvg-ma   decserver 90l+ 
>               dehub-ax
>               1 detmm-m  decrepeater 900 tm
> 	      1 dmhub-mb
>               decnis 600
> 	      dex2r-z routeabout access ew
> 	      dex2r-m routeabout access ew
> 	      dez8r-p routeabout central ew
> Networking:   dsrvh-n decserver 90m
> 	      h7082-88
>               decserver 700 $475   8 port dsrvw-aa
>               decserver 550 dsrvs-c2b03 with multiple cxy08 card
>               pmad-a   p/n 54-19874-01 
>               pmaz    p/n 54-19876-01 
>               rf-delni -aa (fibre optic output)   
>               decrepeater 90T   detmr-m   $150 ea    
>               decrepeater 90T+  detmr-n   $150 ea    
>               decserver 90l+   dsrvg-ma   $225
>               decbridge 90+    dewgb-m   
>               dehub 90 ax               1
>               dehua-nb
>               DESPR-AA,PC100-B,DECROUTER 250,LANBRIDGE 
> 150,LANBRIDGE 100
>               DEC200 NICS, pm37b-by, delni-ba, ab74100b7c, 
> dsrva-aa,dempr-aa
>               h7317,pm20b-ag, dsrvb-aa,lanbridge debet-ac
>               70-19062-01, 70-31353-01, devp03, dvrvb-b, demsa-aa
>               decserver 300
>               vxt2000
>               ba350 scsi enclosure
>               dsrvb-a
>               lxy12
>               decserver 100,decserver 200dl, decserver 200md,
>               decserver 300 dsrvf-ba
>               dsrvf-b,rf-vx20a-m9, di-31cp1-a cpu ka41,lanbridge 
> 150
>               P/N DEC 7876-AA  dehub ax power supply   
>               DSRVB-B,DSRVB-A, DEC REPEATER 350 ,P/N DERFVS240A 
> 20  
>               DESPR-AA THINWIRE REPEATER
>               DECMUX 300 P/N DM308-a,MUX SERVER 310 P/N DSRZC-B  
>                        
>               MUXSERVER 300 P/N DSR2C-A            
>      
> 
> TERMINALS: VT220,VT320,VT330,vt330+,vt340,vt340+,vt420 $99, 
> vt510, vt520     
>      VRM17-AA VRT19-DA VRT19-HA VR241-A VR299 VR290-DA have 200 
> spare lk450
> 
> PRINTERS: LA50 
> $50,LA70,la75$70,la75s-a2$110,la100$70,la210$99,la324 $300,
>           la424 $550,lno3$50,lno3+$75,DECWRITER III $170, RFLAIDR 
> $200,
>           lp27 $300, lp37,LQP45,lgo1,lg02,lg31
> 
> DRIVES      : 
> rd53,rd54,tz30,tk50,tk70,tu81,tu81+,tz85,tz86,ra60,ra90
>               ese20-ba   - 120mb ram memory drives  4  
>               ra650-xa   - 5 1.2 gig sdi drives 1 250 meg ra70
>               ra600  2 1.2 gig ra70
>               h7142 power supplies 6  
>               micro technolory inc. stingray  has 4 rackmount
>                  stingray hard drive controllers 1 2.1 gig 
> seagate barracuda
>                  10 hard drive enclosures
>               hsc50  2    sdi disk drive controllers
> 
> SYSTEMS:
>         vaxstation 4000 60
>                 vx46k-ad
>                 cpu ka46
>                 rz 25e
>                 video card 5020364-01 d3  5420366
>                 ram 2 pieces of 5419103  5019079-01
> 
>         vaxstation 4000 60
>                 vx46k-ad
>                 cpu ka46
>                 tzk10-aa tape drive 
>                 2 hard drives  rz 25e
>                 video card 5020364-01 d3  5420365
>                 ram 2 pieces of 5419145  5019144-01
> 
> 
>         microvax 3100 80
>                 tz30
>                 board 54-20652-01
>                 rz26e hard drive
> 
>         microvax 3100 40
>                 tz30
>                 54-20654-01 h02
>                 rz 26e hard drive 
>                 on onboard ram no modules
> 
>         microvax 3100 30
>                 tz30
>                 board 54-20654-01
>                 on onboard ram no modules
> 
>         microvax 3100
>                 dj31esa-a-a01
>                 tz30
>                 54-18858-01
>                 50-18905-01
>                 54-18905-01
>                 501982901
>                 rz24-e
> 
>         microvax 4000 600
>                 tk70
>                 128 meg ram  ( 2 units l4002aa  ms690-ca)
>                 kfqsa
>                 kzqsa
>                 no hard drive
>                 
>         microvax 4000
>                 6600r-b2
>                 m9047
>                 h7868-a
>                 desqa-sk
>                 ms650-bf
>                 tk70 sf
>                 tk70
>                 
> 
>         dec 3000 400
>                 pe401-cb
>                 rz26
>                 cpu kn15-ba
>                 cd rom
>                 vid 50-21142-01
>                 ram 8 pieces of 5421139cl 
> 
>               vaxstation 8 meg ram modules mso2  p/n 54-16812-01 
>  120  
>               vax 4000-100a
>               vt1300 50
>               decsystem 5500
>                  2200h-b9 series ba400
>                  ms220-ba
>                  m7639
>                  kn220 m7637
>                  kn220 m7638
>                  2 rf72, tlz04 (dat) ,
>               vax 4000 300,vax 4000 200,microvax 3800,microvax 
> 3400
>               microvax 3100
>      VAXSTATION 4000/VLC 24 MEG 20 INCH TRINITRON RZ23L HARD 
> DRIVE $    
>      VAXSTATION 3100 M38 2 SCSI HARD DRIVES 20 INCH 
> TRINITRON......$    
>      VAXSTATION 2000
>      decstation 2100 pm10a-ba
>      DS5000-200 ,ds500--125,ds5000-240,MICROVAX II     
> 
> MISC
> ----
>      TK50 MEDIA(new)$5 used $3                          
>      DEC 16 BIT ETHERNET $5                     
>      DEC 8 BIT PDA508 $3                         
>      DEC DESTA                 
> 
> dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
> dec vax vax
> 
> 
> We will beat any ad price on  ibm equipment   prices u.s $
> 
> SYSTEMS:
>         powerstation 220  type 7011     
>         2.5 gig seagate barracuda
>         32 meg
>         powerstation 220  type 7011       50 units in stock
>         500 meg
>         32 meg
> 
>         powerstation 340 type 7012
>         2 scsi drives p/n 55f9915
>         scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
>         token ring 74f8653
>         16 pieces of 4 meg 72 pin (on 2 cards 8 pieces each)
>         color card fru 71f1223
>                processor card fru 00g3149 cpu 37
> 
>         powerstation 370 type 7012
>         2 scsi drives p/n 75g3628
>         scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
>         token ring 74f8653
>         64 meg  
>         processor card fru 51g9441
> 
>         powerstation 410 
>         2 gig scsi drive
>         scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
>         token ring 74f8653
>         64 meg 
>         color video fru 88g2749 609
>         token ring fru 7280422
> 
>         powerstation 320
>         XSTATION 150 15 UNITS
>         XSTATION 120 100 UNITS
> 3com 3c319 rj45 and db9 isa 16  130 units
> ibm auto 16/4 fru 9873456 rj45       approximately 200 units   
> isa 16
> olicom 00055797-12671-73c-opin  fcc id an055h6800   rj45 and db9 
>  isa 16
> dca 014253 rev a 500 units rj45 and db9 mca and isa  
> smc 8115t c d2 4996  400 units rj45 and db9 isa 16
> madge smart at ringnode 152-034-04   152-028-14  100 units 
> intel rj45 and db9 isa 16 200 units
> card swiper 4717 3
> ibm 16/4 short card 
> ibm 5250 8 bit 
> hp jetdirect j2555-60003  
> hp jetdirect j2373-60001  db9  
> hp jetdirect ex j2383  db9 rj45 external unit with power supply 
> proteon 1392+  16 bit isa tokenring  
> ibm powerstation 320h 32 meg 16 ports for terminals
> ibm sierra xterminal model 120 8 megs ram p/n 950-000024-000
> terminal ibm 3151, 3192,3196,3197,3471,3472
> terminal ibm 3472 color (same tube /flyback) as 3477
> terminal ibm 3477, 5085-1, 5272,3178c,
> terminal ibm p/n 83x7944  color
> controller ibm 
> 3174-1r,3174-1l,3174-11r,3174-51r,3174-61r,3174-91r
> mau ibm 3299 2 8 port coax
> ibm 5242,4224  $200,4230,4234,4324,3812 2,3287, 5210 go2
> ibm 8228 10 port token ring p/n 6091014  50  
> ibm irma2
> ibm auto 16/4, ibm lanstreamer pci tokenring
> lexmark 4109, 4029, 4039
> proteon 
> 7202,33g4389,6091014,4459,4869-009,4869,3174-g2454,3274-41d
> 5362,3268 2,4869-002,4869,3299-2,7010,3044-d02,9404 as400
> 23-p2899,3820,2380,2381,33g4389
> madge token ring cards
> mca network cards  16/4 
> mca adaptek scsi cards  also future domain $20
> assorted other microchannel cards 
> token ring cables 
> proteon cnx 500 and cnx 600 routers dual ethernet token ring 
> model
> 
> inkjet
> ------
> kodak diconix inkjet portable - runs on batteries or adapter$19
> hp thinkjet.................................................$19
> hp deskjet..................................................$29
> hp paintjetcolor continous feed ............................$39
> hp paintjet xl  - takes wide paper..........................$79
> kodak 300w - takes wide paper-- 
> epson sq2500 takes wide paper SUPER HIGH SPEED HUGE CARTRIDGE
> 
> dot matrix
> ----------
> epson lq570  lq 570, fxl070 fx 1070 
> epson lq2500 color - computerized 7 layer form 
> (reg$1099)......$129
> toshiba p341,p351...................................$call
> mannesmann tally mt330, mt390 ,mt86, mt660, mt661, t6045 
> nec p9 color dot matrix commercial................
> printronics mvp, p300, p600, 9012 (1200 lines per minute - WOW)
> genicom 1010, 1020 , 3210 3820 3840
> genicom line printers 4410xt, genicom 4410, genicom4490..$call
> okidata 82,ml182,ml320,ml321,ml380,ml395,ml393+,ml591,ml2410
> hp ruggedwriter high speed commercial dot matrix 
>          accepts input from tray or tractor (reg $1500)...$199
> fujitsu dl2400, 5600 and many genicom, datasouth,mannes tally, 
> tektronix phaser iipx, phaser cp, pahser 220, phaser iii, 4694
> qms colorscript 100 model 10    serial parallel scsi
> qms colorscript 230 11x17, magicolorcx color toner csl 1000-1
> qms ps 2210 black and white 11x17 serial parralel scsi
> 50 tektronix toners reordr no. 016-0898-00
> qmd colorscript 100 color toners 4 color  $20 u.s
> part number 1730451-013                      $20 u.s.2
> 
> we will beat any ad price   mac note the prices in u.s. $
>                             ---
>         mac laserwriter iint $59
>         mac laserwriter      $29
>         nec postscript laser , 4 meg ram $49
>         hp paintjet 300  wide carriage color postscr inkjet $59
>         mac mono monitor $   9 color 13 inch $19
>         20 inch trinitron monitor for mac $199
>         20 mono monitor for mac radius tpd/19 $49
>         radius pivot $55
>         scsi syquest 88 meg $25, scsi cd $10, scsi enclosure $8,
>         scsi ribbon cables $1, external cabels $5, terminator $5
>         old mac machines iicx etc $40  mac se $15
> 
> 3com 3c509, 3c905
> 3480 TAPES NEW TENEX BRAND $3
> QUALSTAR  6250 TAPE DRIVE (SCSI) $350
> chipcom 5006c - 5000m-ctl
>                 5104m-f1b
> lan/wan optimizer series 5000 model 5010l p/n acx067g110001l-r
> gandalf premier lanline 5220 p/n 7707z1
> gandalf mux 2000 16 port  10  
> gandalf mmux 2000 8 port 10  
> gandalf swith mux   5  
> proteon cnx 500 router  3  , cnx 600 router  1 unit
> newbridge 1032 mainstreet p/n 90-0533-01 channel banks 32 port
> newbridge 1082 8 port
> gandalf starmaster
> lots of gandalf ldm and lds series modems  lds120a, 
> lds120e,ldm309a, ldm409a 
> ibm 3174-11r, 3174-51r ibm 3174-61 ribm 3174-91r
> intel satisfaction modems, satisfaction 200, 400, 400e , 
> pcfm6401v, pccb6201a 
> bicc datanetworks thin ethernet repeater model # 1121-0 20  
> comterm c6274-201
> dg 1348 as tape drive with wheels
> dg mv4000 dc
> digiboard 8 port isa bus  $150
> digiboard digichannel c/com-16
> digital rflaidr looks like genicom c1
> disk mini digital  rl02 
> docking station compaq 2684
> docking station nec op-560-4701
> docking station texas instruments 2581447-0041  c2
> docking station toshiba deskstation ii 10 u
> dot matrix color nec p9xl
> dot matrix oki 321 d2
> dot matrixa centronics 359 p351 p353
> dot matrixa dg 6494 
> dot matrixa dg 6594 c1
> dotmatrixa dataproducts tcg 202   10u a2
> dotmatrixa datasouth ds220, ds180
> dotmatrixa dg 6594  c1
> laser postscript, qms ps820 turbo , ps825 turbo 
> modem gandalf lds 100, lds120a,lds120e, lds300, lds 309a, lds289
> modem gandalf lds 125, mlds, ld140,pacx2000, lds300, lds 389
> modem motorola cdm264 modem
> lattisnet 2510, 102, 3000
> telex 87
> wang 75lis12en
> harris l191-s1
> dest pcsan200
> texas instrument silent 700
> allied telesis centrecom 3008
> sytek 20/100
> npi 521
> general datacom de-1
> codex 2600
> puredata pdc520a, pdc608a, pdc620a
> comterm c6274-201
> telex 076 controller
> questronics cpa17
> ast&t 6386 wgs
> intergraph 340
> datability vcp1000
> css 486te-33
> consultronics fdm-3
> microtel bb5007-ca8575
> control data corporation cyber 910
> memorex telex 1374-51r
> aries iii image analysis system dipix
> telebit t2500
> baytech printer controller
> develcon 7330
> byteway 2000
> cimterm c6274-201
> seikosha sbp-10ai
> allied telesis 5000, 3025, 3024, 3008, 3008sl
> data general mv 12000
> memorex telex 2062
> analogic 68
> codex 6006
> telenet tp3/11-3025
> datawatch dwx86
> canstar ncu 200-00-020
> datasouth performax a600
> dataproducts bp 2000, bp 1500, dp 1000
> gandalf access server pcm2022
>                       npm2021 
>                       lds2123e  <----4
>                       asm2081
>                       gcm2091   <----3
>                       sgm2094
> motorola uds model 201b rm16m m
> adic 530/h
> allied telesis centre com 470
> local data interlynx 3287
> fifth generation systems lc-01
> penril 2332-01
> ostrocom e299 squeezplexor
> gandalf minimau
> synoptics lattisnet 102 powersupply
>                     408 fault status
> ncr 3000
> canstar fibre optic hub
> otc 2160
> cisco igs-r multiprotocal router
> qms csc-100
> castelle lanpress  95054
> honeywell hds2
> 3com 3c1351
> 3com linkbuilder ecs10 type 1200-1 with 12 port utp cards and 
> management card
> motorola 6005
> ods 296
> telenet tp3/11-3025
> delta data 8700t
> memorex telex 2062
> at&t 1600
> ncr 3400
> alpha industries um3000
> system industries csr176700, csr176300, csr176200
> fibrecom 9600r
> chipcom 9314s-st fibre optic hub
> sytek 2550
> comterm dc8101-101
> local data ld 3278
> telebit t2sa
> gandalf 3790z1
> net 3com multiconnect repeater 10u   p/n 3c588
> net allied telisys centercom 810 (switch?) 
> net david systems 6102-01 40 port  rck
> net gandalf lds120, lds140, lds260, lds309, ldm309, ldm409, 9106, 
> 2200226
> net gandalf mux 2000 mmux2000
> net gandalf 6808a rev d1
> net gandalf 500540101 rev 1b
> datability 500540101 rev 1b
> net gandalf p/n 427421 mux?
> net gandalf pacx 2000
> net gandalf sm9600-d
> net gandalf sm9600-oyr
> net gandalf starmaster, access server xl
> net gandalf swithmux 2000
> net memotec mpac mp8002  60 port x25 switch multiprotocol
> net memotec mpac sp8300
> net memotek sp8000 18 port
> net micom m2002
> net newbridge mainstreet 1082 in box
> net paradyne p9600
> network memotek sp800  18 port
> plotter calcomp plotmaster
> plotter hp 7550a
> protec bytelink plus  24 port peripheral sharing device 1 meg 
>              p/n 24p/1m  50  
> puredata 12 port hub + 12 network cards $195  
> qms 4 color toner rolls 2 per box $80 per box p/n 1730451-013
> ricoh 150 opc  20   $30
> sony gdm-1962b $190 20 inch 1024x768
> sony gdm-20d10 (sun) $250
> tectronics hc02 video copy processor (mitsubishi p71u)
> terminal memorex telex 1471 , 1472, 2391g 
> terminal tecktronics 4205 14'
> terminal volker craig 6220   
> terminal wyse 30,50,60 75, 85,99gt,160, 185,285,325,350   
> terminal linc mc3, mc5
> terminal televideo 905, 955, 965
> terminal qume ,qvt31, qvt51, qvt-101, qvt101+
> toner color tektronic 016-0898-0050 40u
> adacom cp150+
> shiva lanrover/8t
> newbridge p/n 1032-8706-0259 32 port channel bank 2u
> timeplex microplex x25 pad 24 port 
> newbridge 1032 mainstreet    p/n 90-0533-31a
> citoh ci4000, ci15000, c310
> m3358a ,ibm 2381, 2391, 5202, 2178, 3192, 5202, 
> facit b3100, 4509, 1513
> epson lq570, lq1170, fx1170, fax 1050, lq2550, lq2500, sq2500, 
> sq2550, etc
> panasonic kxp1592, kxp1624,, raven pr248, pr9101
> alps 324 printer for dec systems 50  
> rf delni with fibre optic interface 50  
> fibre optic tranciever (digital brand) 43  
> gandalf 500540101
> datability 500540101
> gandalf 6808a  revd
> intel netport 306515-004   token ring db9, 306514-003   ethernet 
> rj45 ,306482-004   ethernet aui
> xircom pocket ethernet adapter II pe3-10bt
> seiko smart label printer plus slp1000p  slp1100
> general datacom diz ai
> general datacom dei 
> human design systems hds2000
> memotec isu5600 v.35 dte
> synoptics lattisnet model 2500
> telebit netblazer st
> emerald rap150-9000 tape drive
> hp28681a 10:10 bridge lp
> hemulex jetdirect netjet ethernet  pwb-er2010276-01
> hp jetdirect j2550,j2552,j2555,j2382
> pacifac data jetcard/mio 8 serial 1 parallel
> banyan jetdirect 6034100 20322e rj45 coax
> asp serverjet asp sj400 4 rj45 or 8 rj45
> datability vcp200
> datability vcp1000
> valtek pst250f 250 meg external tape parralel/serial
> mita ldc550
> 3com h46891 ethernet card 16 bit
> 3com etherlink ii 16tp
> 3com elii/16 tp, el2tp 8 bit, etherlink 3c509c parralel tasking 
> adaptek mp401 autoswitch
> hpiiisi i/o card 28644-60002
> pacifac postscript  for laserjet ii,iii pd-016907   
> ibm mca microchannel video xga-2 fru 8tf4774aha1640 aha-1640 
> adaptek isa 16 bit aha1542
> puredate arcnet pdc508a
> ascend mb4bri option nx56isdn 4 x 128k ----8x64k
> memotek da3224
> intel etherexpress 16tp 16 bit ethernet card
> pioneer drm-604x 6 cd changer scsi 
> telenet to8010-16
> seikosha sbp-10a1 
> xyplex maxserver 6020
> qume qvt 31,101,101+, 102, 203+
> datawatch vm14
> volker craig vc8325, vc6220
> AT&T 705 MT
> mai basic four 4313
> memotec mc504
> canon
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Jan  6 07:44:21 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:44:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010105200302.00a7ae68@mail.internet-95.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101061644110.9677-100000@dns.interklub.pl>



Pozdrawiam 
Mateusz Ziolek

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Wilfred L. Guerin wrote:

> jan 05 2001
> 
> News article referencing NSA lookingglass facility, etc... Of both general,
> technical, "esch--" and location oriented interest.
> 
> http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&stor
> yid=1150520223288
> 
> -Wilfred
> Wilfred at Cryogen.com
> 




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Jan  6 07:45:08 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:45:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105153056.00be76e0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101061645000.9677-100000@dns.interklub.pl>



Pozdrawiam 
Mateusz Ziolek

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Reese wrote:

> Prove that you ever had the password.  If you can.
> 
> At 03:24 PM 1/5/01 +0000, Paul Griffiths wrote:
> >SOS
> >I have lost password to a 123.97 spreadsheet. Any advice would be much 
> >appreciated
> >Thanx
> 




From njf82 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  6 16:48:38 2001
From: njf82 at yahoo.com (Keyser Soze)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:48:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20010107004838.92339.qmail@web10410.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 

=====
Search Engines: http://gpcm.tripod.com/search.html

FREE: http://www.freebieclub.com/FC_myFreebies.asp?a=16942

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Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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From freesignup at earthlink.net  Sat Jan  6 14:24:15 2001
From: freesignup at earthlink.net (Boot Man)
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 17:24:15 EST
Subject: Are you a computer user?
Message-ID: <200101062354.PAA01521@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>


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(For problems with your order only. No salesmen will call.)

Email Address____________________________________


[  ] YES! Please rush my Ultimate Boot Disk.  I 
understand I have a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee and can return
my order for the purchase price at any time.

[  ] DOUBLE YES!  I am ordering before January 31st 2000!  
Please include the extra special bonuses!

Note - If ordering outside continental US, please add $2 to S&H

Get This Disk Now
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Secure Visa/MC through paypal.com





You are receiving this list because you were targeted as a person who prefers to pay through the online service paypal.com.  This email was not sent out by Paypal or endorsed by the company itself.  
To Remove Yourself From This List: reply to this email with the email
address that you would like removed and the word REMOVE in the subject heading.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Jan  6 14:27:05 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:27:05 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A560BA8.6F9AD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010106142649.007ba100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:00 PM 1/5/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
> a good example of the US habit of never using a short
>word when a long one will do. But when I found myself amongst Americans
>I was slightly disappointed to find that they almost all say "tap" these
>days. Just as they say "car" instead of "automobile". You are obviously
>all watching too much British TV, or listening to too many British rock
>bands. You should defend your language against this tide of old-world
>vulgarity.

Nah, we're simply Huffman-encoding.  A language has to be efficient
in this meme market :-) 




 






  








From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Sat Jan  6 16:17:53 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 19:17:53 -0500
Subject: FWD from W@C.c: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101060938430.24016-100000@dragonsweb.darkte
	ch.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052207580.7921-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010106191753.010788c0@mail.internet-95.com>



-=|[ NASA/NSA and PARI, etc ]|=-

Of first note, remind me not to use any fool 'send this to friend'
buttons... :) -- sorry for message weight above...

Secondly, has anyone done the simple mapping and can post a terraserver
link for the facility itself?

Additionally, although located off "Government Road" out in the forrest,
there are a number of other facilities in that area, due east, we have
lookingGlass mountain and whatnot (with related facilities), due west a
short distance is one of the new facilities (for nsa), within proximinity
are prooving and operations grounds for numerous other entities, and
although nicely centralized, if they are transfering the old nasa facility
to a private entity (although with logistic lockdown), it is
logical/feasible that other such facilities will be becoming available in
the near future? -- theres not much use for them now...

Has anyone compiled a 'theorhetical' list or set of basic maps that outline
the physical presence of various entities for public review? This would be
an interesting project now, especially with the open-ness of public
sat/aerial photography, as well as the availability and non-cold-war type
security and new potential for visitors to see the places...

Sidenote: article references an 'exchange' of the astronomers' previous
land to DOD/NSA, possibly such is an interesting facet for potential research?

I would though, like to see an archive and index/lookup of all facilities,
their operations, interactions, etc, just for education/ammusement,
especially with the most recent phase of declassification, im sure 'public
enlightenment' is a high priority of our grey-realm friends... Anyone want
to toss together a script, or provide a host for something i'll easily
build to accomodate the info?

Anyways, back to other ammusements :)

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com

-=|[.]|=-





At 10:14 AM 1/6/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:
>
>> 
>> I highly recommend anyone go see it if they get the chance. I also
welcome any 
>> corrections or additions to 30-year old schoolboy memories. 
http://www.pari.edu 


.
..




From rketchum at theriver.com  Sat Jan  6 18:33:45 2001
From: rketchum at theriver.com (Robert Ketchum)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:33:45 -0700
Subject: More Info
Message-ID: <000401c07852$42074d00$53c366ce@oemcomputer>


WE are interested in your services. We are looking for a cost effective way
to jump start our homepage. our number is 520.515.9809

Robert and Tanya Ketchum




From simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it  Sat Jan  6 13:40:18 2001
From: simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it (Simone)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:40:18 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <007901c07829$441fc960$03820b3e@host>


::
request-remailing-to: simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it

questa è una prova
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From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Sat Jan  6 20:06:59 2001
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:06:59 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
References: <012901c077ba$dc4c8a80$eec11d97@seminole>
Message-ID: <3A577AA5.17951.25128D5F@localhost>


> Why?  sexyfun.net traces to a .au domain, and Graeme Platt is already tired
> of hearing from me.
> 
> At 03:26 AM 1/6/01 -0500, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote:
>  >I have sent a copy of this message to a cyber crime officer in Tallahassee

There is a web site at http://www.sexyfun.net which gives some 
information on this virus.  Apparently the domain name sexyfun.net 
was registered after the virus spread in an attempt to help people.  
The owner of the domain appears to be located in North Carolina.

Once the virus inflects a system it sends out messages to everyone 
in the address book.  This virus manages to remove all indication of 
the sender except the IP address being used by the sender.  At this 
point the sender is a victim and abusing them is of little value other 
then they were so foolish to actually run the application when they 
received it.

An easy way to check if you are infected is to drop to a MS-DOS 
prompt and check for files with an extension of "vbs" in the windows 
and windows/system directories.  The www.sexyfun.net web site 
has lots of information and links to all the major anti-virus maker's 
web sites.  







Virtually


Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca
"The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" 
http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Sun Jan  7 04:56:17 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 04:56:17 -0800
Subject: remailers still operating?
Message-ID: <a453bcbe413145a5667842042c289f29@melontraffickers.com>


On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Igor Chudov wrote:

> I would like to have some fun on usenet, but I lost track of the current
> state of anon remailers. Are they still operational?
>
>       - Igor.
>


Yep.

http://anon.efga.org/Remailers is a good starting point.




From wolf at priori.net  Sun Jan  7 07:19:30 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:19:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107084438.25692m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <200101071326.IAA21222@Prometheus.schaefer.nu>

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From carlwebb at commie.zzn.com  Sun Jan  7 05:32:56 2001
From: carlwebb at commie.zzn.com (Carl Webb)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:32:56 -0600
Subject: Austin's 360 Summit
Message-ID: <4291D8B5984E4D11EA610005B88CF74E@carlwebb.commie.zzn.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 06:45:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 08:45:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107084438.25692m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.sciencedaily.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 06:57:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 08:57:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: What's up w/ CCC in Germany?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107085624.25692n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Anyone know why the ccc.de node is bouncing?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dakin at nationalpost.com  Sun Jan  7 06:14:27 2001
From: dakin at nationalpost.com (David Akin)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:14:27 -0500
Subject: CBC Undercurrents does privacy
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010106131212.027d3728@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <NEBBKOODCMLJIAIIKLPGMEOLDGAC.dakin@nationalpost.com>


"...this week's Undercurrents . . . tackles the issue of privacy in a wired
world and, frankly, she finds a future that looks bleak. "Nothing comes
free," says a man from Bell, explaining how the phone company makes money
from selling people the tools to protect their basic privacy." - John Doyle,
The Globe and Mail, Jan. 5

Undercurrents airs on CBC at 10:30 pm (EST) Sunday, Jan. 6

Details on Undercurrents (usually with streaming video of the broadcasts can
be be found at http://www.cbc.ca/undercurrents

David Akin / Senior technology reporter
National Post / http://www.nationalpost.com
300-1450 Don Mills Road, Don Mills, Ontario
CANADA / M3B 3R5
VOX: 416.383.2372 FAX: 416.383.2443
dakin at nationalpost.com / AIM: DavidAkin

Click to add my contact info to your organizer:
http://my.infotriever.com/DavidAkin




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 07:47:38 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:47:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <200101071326.IAA21222@Prometheus.schaefer.nu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107094601.25692p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Meyer,

Unfortunately there is no guarantee the URL is stable either.

The point being you've got the topic and they have a search engine.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com
> 
> Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> ever encountered. One would expect sciencedaily.com's website to change
> daily. Hence the name. Now, when someone reads this message of yours two
> weeks from now and wants to see what it is that you were talking about,
> they're not going to be able to find it. Quantum computing will have been
> replaced by stories of monkeys trading sexual favors for food in the front
> page headlines.
> 
> "Well, I have to do it this way or Tim will yell at me for posting HTML"
> you say.
> 
> Wrong. Post a direct link. Everyone's happy. You don't look stupid. We all
> win.
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010105075630.htm
> 
> Now, is that so hard?
> 
> 
> - -MW-
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> Comment: No comment.
> 
> iQEVAwUBOliJESsFU3q6vVI9AQETuAf+MFCuR1YIODPVWJT0u9jlUuxga/ICBIXB
> vOFEXMXfhWGGd1IERVHaUCr5cJFMD2apHJXYDqoWNOwFqUQyQWlk4pNog322kte0
> pJ9TDJT1Np5xRQB40okyjG1aYzoJ7NFCOdFmEBaTZXfvnKr+ho4npb9gW2MMX5xF
> e5JY4yn2Ex2im8wQDP2U80oDRW2GOxp10H0bF2cmQYMNt6gJBIa3RCFPVGpNAhuu
> +t6DfnvhwyU4DTagCwLiD2DR7BwRvr/CF17LR5DAeazWjT98NYHw5XNNKf+a/1S3
> WpLIQWT8qEb9VJCsdih+dB32twcBz+O5nbWTgwpBOsTb6kC1KvCZZw==
> =xByv
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From cels451 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  7 10:06:55 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>


Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
developed
world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
info,
such as address, telephone no, name, etc.

I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
UK and the rest of europe.

regards,



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From remove at mail.epay.sk  Sun Jan  7 11:02:52 2001
From: remove at mail.epay.sk (ePay Inc)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:02:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Does someone you love have dry skin or eczema?
Message-ID: <200101071902.LAA26214@toad.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jan  7 11:27:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 11:27:14 -0800
Subject: remailer test failed
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010107112714.02a31340@idiom.com>


Simone - your remailer test failed.   It looks like two things went wrong.
1) You mailed it to the cypherpunks mailing list itself,
	not to a remailer using the cypherpunks design.
	There's a list of remailers at 
	http://anon.efga.org/Remailers/TypeIList
2) Your message needs to be plain text.  You sent it using a 
	Microsoft X-HTML mail format.  I've attached a copy of what
	I received (in two pieces, since Eudora doesn't like to
	forward X-HTML without converting to plaintext.)
	So instead of seeing a line starting with :: ,
	the remailer sees a line starting with 
	<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>::</FONT></DIV>
	and doesn't know it's a remailer command.


>Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04405
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:39:59 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mail.tiscalinet.it (mail-4.tiscalinet.it [195.130.225.150])
by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04399 for
<cypherpunks at toad.com>; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:39:56 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from host (62.11.130.3) by mail.tiscalinet.it (5.5.015.5)
>        id 3A51DED4000E79E3 for cypherpunks at toad.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001
22:39:38 +0100
>Message-ID: <007901c07829$441fc960$03820b3e at host>
>From: "Simone" <simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it>
>To: <cypherpunks at toad.com>
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:40:18 +0100
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C07831.A52B8FC0"
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Precedence: first-class
>Reply-To: "Simone" <simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it>
>X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>X-UIDL: b7fc41f2ba40a8ad2e91a25ec82a7e0e

<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>::</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>request-remailing-to: <A 
href="mailto:simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it">simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it</A></FON
T></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>questa h una prova</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 09:48:46 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:48:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CPS-2 Broken
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107114830.25692t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 09:50:00 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:50:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Spam Re: Are you a computer user?
In-Reply-To: <000001c078ce$3665a100$3bc378d4@g8f8d4>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107114854.25692u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Alexandros Andreou wrote:

> Can't the admin do something about all this spam???
> 

Which admin? You must be a newbie, see the archives and

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Sun Jan  7 10:48:13 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:48:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <200101071848.f07ImDF02903@rebma.pro-ns.net>



On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:19:30AM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com
>
> Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> ever encountered.



Is that the regular OR, or do you mean XOR?




From amar at nde.vsnl.net.in  Sun Jan  7 01:34:30 2001
From: amar at nde.vsnl.net.in (Playnet)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:04:30 +0530
Subject: want to save my program ,page on my web site help me
Message-ID: <LPBBKNEKHNICHHMCMLBLIEFICAAA.amar@nde.vsnl.net.in>


want to creat login that no body can hack my password 
also want password protaction, creation of mirror file
amar at nde.vsnl.net.in




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Jan  7 12:51:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:51:27 -0500
Subject: Spam Re: Are you a computer user?
In-Reply-To: <000001c078ce$3665a100$3bc378d4@g8f8d4>
References: <200101062354.PAA01521@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010107123018.007c1150@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:37 PM 1/7/01 -0500, Alexandros Andreou wrote:
>Can't the admin do something about all this spam???

Probably, if there were one.



 






  








From ajenks at microsoft.com  Sun Jan  7 15:56:52 2001
From: ajenks at microsoft.com (Andrew Jenks)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:56:52 -0800 
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119461@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>


In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.

-----Original Message-----
From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: cell phone anonymity


Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
developed
world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
info,
such as address, telephone no, name, etc.

I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
UK and the rest of europe.

regards,



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From abuse at microsoft.com  Sun Jan  7 16:27:19 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 16:27:19 -0800
Subject: Confirmation Receipt
Message-ID: <200101080124.TAA12879@einstein.ssz.com>


Thank you for your inquiry to Abuse at Microsoft.com  

Your e-mail was received on Sun, Jan 7, 2001 at 4:25 PM and will be 
handled personally by one of our Customer Service Representatives within
12 hours. Our Customer Service Representatives can answer general policy
questions, validate your support eligibility, or refer you to the 
appropriate phone, e-mail, or Web resource.

To explore online support options, please visit 
http://support.microsoft.com/directory/default.asp.

Thank you, 
Microsoft Product Support Services




From sbrown249 at excite.com  Sun Jan  7 13:34:11 2001
From: sbrown249 at excite.com (sbrown249 at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:34:11 -0500
Subject: Take aim at e-commerce
Message-ID: <00003ebe4962$000036f7$00001598@209.162.52.75>

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From cels451 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  7 17:44:35 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:44:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <20010108014435.48950.qmail@web11404.mail.yahoo.com>


>To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards
and change
>frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not
counting the prepaid
>calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is
sending it's serial
>number (but who - except for deep insiders and
possibly Lucky Green -

Your belief is ... well, unfounded. Cell phones do
always
send the handset ID. You must exchange handsets with
SIM cards.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From vab at cryptnet.net  Sun Jan  7 15:00:05 2001
From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:00:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PGP Key Signing Party! (Gainesville, Fl)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101071753480.9170-100000@sovereign>

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From andreou at netexperts.gr  Sun Jan  7 08:27:31 2001
From: andreou at netexperts.gr (Alexandros Andreou)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:27:31 +0200
Subject: Spam Re: Are you a computer user?
References: <200101062354.PAA01521@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000001c078ce$3665a100$3bc378d4@g8f8d4>


Can't the admin do something about all this spam???




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jan  7 15:29:51 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 18:29:51 -0500
Subject: Steven Levy Book Tour
Message-ID: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Steven Levy writes:

Here is a link to some sites for a book tour:

   http://www.penguinputnam.com/stevenlevy/tour.htm

Not on there for some reason is a reading/discussion at Microsoft's Mountain
View (CA) campus on Jan 12 at 3:30 p.m. that's open to the public.  Another
public event is Jan. 16 at the University of Washington bookstore in
Seattle, at 7 pm. 

-----

Sorry I failed to mention previously the full title of Steve's new book
(first posted, I thnk, by Commando Hettinga):

"CRYPTO: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government - Saving 
Privacy in the Digital Age."

And more:

Endorsements for Crypto by Neal Stephenson, Kevin Kelly and David Kahn:

"You've got to hear this story of how renegade geniuses and unlikely heroes
liberated crypto from under the noses of spooks, and installed the code in
the dream servers of dot-coms. This book persuaded me that despite the
dangers of strong crypto (it gives a chance for evil to hide) providing it
to the public was a Very Good Thing. Crypto not only makes e-commerce
possible, it is also the first political movement in the digital era. Read
about the future here."
--Kevin Kelly, author of New Rules for the New Economy and Editor-at-Large,
Wired Magazine

"At last! The human story of the breakthroughs that gave us e-commerce and
privacy on the Internet. Steve Levy has written cryptography's Soul of a New
Machine.'"
--David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers

"Civilian crypto hardly existed three decades ago.  Now we can't get cash
from an ATM or buy something on the Net without it.  To tell the story
coherently is a service, and to tell it entertainingly is a favor to anyone
with a stake in crypto--which nowadays means all of us.  CRYPTO  is a book
that needed to be written and Steven Levy has written it. "
-- Neal Stephenson, author of Cryptonomicon

Author Bio

Steven Levy is also the author of Hackers and Insanely Great: The Life &
Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything. He is Newsweek's
chief technology writer, a former writer for Macworld, and a frequent
contributor to Wired.






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Sun Jan  7 15:34:43 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:34:43 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDOEBGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


RE: actual cell phone buying experiences in Europe...

In Greece you can purchase a GSM cell phone with smart card reader for cash
(sometimes free if you purchase a smart card along with the phone)...no
address, phone number, etc. required to receive the phone.  Smart cards with
pre-set values (usually $5, $10 and $25 worth in Greek drachmas) are
purchased in cash via the thousands of corner kiosks or at electronics
stores, etc.  Again, no name, phone number, address, etc. required to
purchase smart cards.

The Greek GSM cell phones are useable across all of Europe, including the UK
and Eastern Europe, Russia, etc.  Plus the phones can be modified to
interact with Voicestream's US GSM-type service (I've been told, not
experienced first hand).

Phillip Zakas

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of montag montag
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:07 PM
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: cell phone anonymity



Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
developed
world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
info,
such as address, telephone no, name, etc.

I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
UK and the rest of europe.

regards,



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/





From PaulMerrill at acm.org  Sun Jan  7 16:55:57 2001
From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:55:57 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
References: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119461@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>


But, the rates on the prepaid services are
exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
always, you don't get more than you pay for.

PHM

Andrew Jenks wrote:
> 
> In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
> computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
> locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
> done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
> available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
> Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> X-Loop: openpgp.net
> From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: cell phone anonymity
> 
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/

-- 
Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
PaulMerrill at ACM.Org





From commerce at home.com  Sun Jan  7 18:35:00 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:35:00 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
References: <3A53606F.3552F6FF@lsil.com> <3A537BE0.4A4E9E96@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <03fd01c0791b$99751940$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver"
> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> >  nefarious activities. Same as Napster. What a stupid shit.
Think the
> > next prez will do any better picking an AG? Don't bet on it.
>    Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked.
Asscroft,
> the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his
ultra-fascist voting
> record. Gag. Barf.

Yes, but I bet he will burn very few children to death in a
church during his first year.

Nothing short of him raping babies with a ricin dildo while
banning swear words on the internet as he runs naked through a
synagogue singing horst wessel could put him below Reno.

And what the hell is an ultra-fascist?





From George at Orwellian.Org  Sun Jan  7 19:35:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 22:35:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NZ Snoop Backlash
Message-ID: <200101080335.WAA16172@www6.aa.psiweb.com>


But first...

Butt-ugly KGB watches:

    http://www.russia2all.com/watches/military/watch_military_army.htm

Get yer KGB memorabilia before portals bans it.

----

Wouldn't it be at least something to have a U.S. cabinet level
position of Privacy Commissioner? NZ, Canada but not US.

(via slashdot)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=167151&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Police snooping needs tight rein says report

01/03/2001 By EUGENE BINGHAM political reporter

Plans to give police and spy agencies the power to hack into 
computers and intercept electronic communications will lead to 
unprecedented snooping, the Privacy Commissioner has warned.

In a report calling for limitations to be placed on law 
enforcement bodies, and greater accountability, Bruce Slane 
opposes the "pernicious" practice of police hacking into 
databases.

He has recommended that if police are allowed to hack into 
personal computers, they should need more than a search warrant.

A law change making hacking and other computer snooping illegal 
except when carried out by the Security Intelligence Service 
(SIS), the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) or 
the police is before the law and order select committee.

Associate Justice Minister Paul Swain introduced the legislation 
in November, saying the agencies needed the powers to battle 
crime and terrorism.

Mr Slane reported to the Government on the changes before 
Christmas, welcoming the clamp-down on unauthorised access to 
computer systems but questioning whether there would be enough 
controls on state agencies.

"It is easy to think of the interception of communications or 
the accessing of a computer as affecting only the target of police 
interest," he wrote.

"However ... many other people [are] affected by interceptions 
or computer-related searches.

"Trawling or browsing through a myriad of personal information 
[would be] authorised on an unprecedented scale.

"A single interception warrant can, for instance, authorise 
listening into hundreds of conversations involving scores of 
individuals beyond the targeted individuals."

The new law would clear the SIS to carry out a sting on a database 
once the agency had an interception warrant.

Police would need only a search warrant.

Mr Slane did not believe that a search warrant, issued by a 
justice of the peace, was strong enough.

"Search warrants are not designed for regulating covert 
investigations or surveillance," he said.

"Hacking into a person's computer should be, if allowed at all, 
very much a last resort.

"Search warrants, unlike interception warrants, do not require 
the intrusive technique to be used only as a last resort."

Mr Slane said yesterday that the police should have to obtain 
an interception warrant from a judge too.

Hacking into a computer and intercepting electronic communications 
was far more intrusive than police saying, "We have got some 
evidence this guy's got stolen property."

The report also calls for the GCSB to be omitted from the 
exemption clauses until it becomes a statutory body like the 
SIS.

Prime Minister Helen Clark has said the bureau would be written 
into law this year.

Mr Slane said it should not be given more rights until the public 
was aware of its accountability and powers.

"Unlike the SIS, any interceptions which may be carried out are 
not subject to a statutory warrant process.

"This will not be put right until the GCSB's establishment is 
set out in legislation."





From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Sun Jan  7 19:48:09 2001
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 22:48:09 -0500
Subject: Free FREEDOM REFRESHER COURSE
Message-ID: <200101080351.TAA10000@toad.com>

FREEDOM REFRESHER COURSE
author unknown

a. An armed person is a citizen. An unarmed person is a subject.

b. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

c. Six-shooter: The original point and click interface.

d. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

e. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

f. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

g. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

h. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

i. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

j. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

l. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.

m. 64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

n. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

o. Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety.

p. You don't shoot to kill; You shoot to stay alive.

q. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer.

r. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

s. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs safer.

t. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson.

u. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control
   them.

v. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

w. We don't enforce unconstitutional laws; we REPEAL them.

x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create
   slaves.

y. The American Revolution would never have happened with "gun
   control."

z. "....a government by the people, for the people....."



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From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:17:24 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:17:24 -0500
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107094601.25692p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 09:47:38AM -0600
References: <200101071326.IAA21222@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107094601.25692p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010107231724.A3882@cluebot.com>


Choate: Moron or obstinate?

The truth is somewhere in between. As Choate knows, many news sites
keep URLs active for quite a while. Wired.com URLs from 1995 still
work, for instance.

And search engines aren't always updated or don't always work that
well. Etc. Like I said, a little of both.

-Declan



On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 09:47:38AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi Meyer,
> 
> Unfortunately there is no guarantee the URL is stable either.
> 
> The point being you've got the topic and they have a search engine.
> 
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > > http://www.sciencedaily.com
> > 
> > Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> > ever encountered. One would expect sciencedaily.com's website to change
> > daily. Hence the name. Now, when someone reads this message of yours two
> > weeks from now and wants to see what it is that you were talking about,
> > they're not going to be able to find it. Quantum computing will have been
> > replaced by stories of monkeys trading sexual favors for food in the front
> > page headlines.
> > 
> > "Well, I have to do it this way or Tim will yell at me for posting HTML"
> > you say.
> > 
> > Wrong. Post a direct link. Everyone's happy. You don't look stupid. We all
> > win.
> > 
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010105075630.htm
> > 
> > Now, is that so hard?
> > 
> > 
> > - -MW-
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > Comment: No comment.
> > 
> > iQEVAwUBOliJESsFU3q6vVI9AQETuAf+MFCuR1YIODPVWJT0u9jlUuxga/ICBIXB
> > vOFEXMXfhWGGd1IERVHaUCr5cJFMD2apHJXYDqoWNOwFqUQyQWlk4pNog322kte0
> > pJ9TDJT1Np5xRQB40okyjG1aYzoJ7NFCOdFmEBaTZXfvnKr+ho4npb9gW2MMX5xF
> > e5JY4yn2Ex2im8wQDP2U80oDRW2GOxp10H0bF2cmQYMNt6gJBIa3RCFPVGpNAhuu
> > +t6DfnvhwyU4DTagCwLiD2DR7BwRvr/CF17LR5DAeazWjT98NYHw5XNNKf+a/1S3
> > WpLIQWT8qEb9VJCsdih+dB32twcBz+O5nbWTgwpBOsTb6kC1KvCZZw==
> > =xByv
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:18:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:18:20 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010107233126.00934100@zebra.swip.net>; from mob@mbox301.swipnet.se on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 11:49:10PM +0100
References: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com> <4.1.20010107233126.00934100@zebra.swip.net>
Message-ID: <20010107231819.B3882@cluebot.com>


Just got to your local cell phone dealer (even blockbuster here
in DC) and buy an AT&T prepaid cell phone for cash.

-Declan


On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 11:49:10PM +0100, Mats O. Bergstrom wrote:
> At 10:06 2001-01-07 -0800, montag montag wrote:
> >Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> >pre-paid cell phone
> 
> GSM/Europe
> 1) Buy a cell phone and pay cash
> 2) Buy a GSM cash-card and pay cash
> 3) Don4t send in the registration form to get that extra half hour!  :-)
> 
> To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards and change
> frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not counting the prepaid
> calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is sending it's serial
> number (but who - except for deep insiders and possibly Lucky Green -
> knows for sure?).
> 
> //Mob
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:18:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:18:59 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>; from cels451@yahoo.com on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 10:06:55AM -0800
References: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010107231859.C3882@cluebot.com>


Ah, sorry, my comments were US-specific.

-Declan

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 10:06:55AM -0800, montag montag wrote:
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:20:28 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:20:28 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>; from PaulMerrill@acm.org on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:55:57PM -0500
References: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119461@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>
Message-ID: <20010107231950.D3882@cluebot.com>


AT&T is $.40/minute, still very high, for larger units such as $100
purchases of minutes. --Declan


On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:55:57PM -0500, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> But, the rates on the prepaid services are
> exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
> smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
> always, you don't get more than you pay for.
> 
> PHM
> 
> Andrew Jenks wrote:
> > 
> > In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
> > computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
> > locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
> > done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
> > available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
> > Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > X-Loop: openpgp.net
> > From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
> > To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> > Subject: cell phone anonymity
> > 
> > Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> > pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> > developed
> > world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> > info,
> > such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> > 
> > I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> > UK and the rest of europe.
> > 
> > regards,
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> 
> -- 
> Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
> PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
> 
> 





From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:21:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:21:25 -0500
Subject: Steven Levy Book Tour
In-Reply-To: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:29:51PM -0500
References: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010107232125.E3882@cluebot.com>


I took a copy of Steven's book to Aruba and read most of it there.

Very worthwhile. I'll review it soon.

-Declan


On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:29:51PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Steven Levy writes:
> 
> Here is a link to some sites for a book tour:
> 
>    http://www.penguinputnam.com/stevenlevy/tour.htm
> 
> Not on there for some reason is a reading/discussion at Microsoft's Mountain
> View (CA) campus on Jan 12 at 3:30 p.m. that's open to the public.  Another
> public event is Jan. 16 at the University of Washington bookstore in
> Seattle, at 7 pm. 
> 
> -----
> 
> Sorry I failed to mention previously the full title of Steve's new book
> (first posted, I thnk, by Commando Hettinga):
> 
> "CRYPTO: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government - Saving 
> Privacy in the Digital Age."
> 
> And more:
> 
> Endorsements for Crypto by Neal Stephenson, Kevin Kelly and David Kahn:
> 
> "You've got to hear this story of how renegade geniuses and unlikely heroes
> liberated crypto from under the noses of spooks, and installed the code in
> the dream servers of dot-coms. This book persuaded me that despite the
> dangers of strong crypto (it gives a chance for evil to hide) providing it
> to the public was a Very Good Thing. Crypto not only makes e-commerce
> possible, it is also the first political movement in the digital era. Read
> about the future here."
> --Kevin Kelly, author of New Rules for the New Economy and Editor-at-Large,
> Wired Magazine
> 
> "At last! The human story of the breakthroughs that gave us e-commerce and
> privacy on the Internet. Steve Levy has written cryptography's Soul of a New
> Machine.'"
> --David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers
> 
> "Civilian crypto hardly existed three decades ago.  Now we can't get cash
> from an ATM or buy something on the Net without it.  To tell the story
> coherently is a service, and to tell it entertainingly is a favor to anyone
> with a stake in crypto--which nowadays means all of us.  CRYPTO  is a book
> that needed to be written and Steven Levy has written it. "
> -- Neal Stephenson, author of Cryptonomicon
> 
> Author Bio
> 
> Steven Levy is also the author of Hackers and Insanely Great: The Life &
> Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything. He is Newsweek's
> chief technology writer, a former writer for Macworld, and a frequent
> contributor to Wired.
> 
> 




From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se  Sun Jan  7 14:49:10 2001
From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mats O. Bergstrom)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:49:10 +0100
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20010107233126.00934100@zebra.swip.net>


At 10:06 2001-01-07 -0800, montag montag wrote:
>Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
>pre-paid cell phone

GSM/Europe
1) Buy a cell phone and pay cash
2) Buy a GSM cash-card and pay cash
3) Don´t send in the registration form to get that extra half hour!  :-)

To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards and change
frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not counting the prepaid
calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is sending it's serial
number (but who - except for deep insiders and possibly Lucky Green -
knows for sure?).

//Mob




From bear at sonic.net  Sun Jan  7 21:59:26 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 00:59:26 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>





On the larger purchases, the costs drop down to the forty-cents-a-minute 
range.  Totally worth it if you really *need* anonymity on the phone.  

Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips 
for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by 
a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for 
someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its 
exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.  (I don't 
know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether 
removing the main batteries will stop it).  So if you're into hard 
anonymity, keep it inside a faraday cage when you're not using it and 
don't use it from inside your own dwelling. 

Faraday cages don't have to be fancy; a fruitcake tin will usually do.

					Bear


On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

>But, the rates on the prepaid services are
>exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
>smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
>always, you don't get more than you pay for.
>
>PHM
>
>Andrew Jenks wrote:
>> 
>> In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
>> computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
>> locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
>> done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
>> available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
>> Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> X-Loop: openpgp.net
>> From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
>> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
>> Subject: cell phone anonymity
>> 
>> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
>> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
>> developed
>> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
>> info,
>> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
>> 
>> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
>> UK and the rest of europe.
>> 
>> regards,
>> 
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>-- 
>Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
>PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
>
>





From jbdreads at swbell.net  Mon Jan  8 03:10:18 2001
From: jbdreads at swbell.net (jbdreads at swbell.net)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:10:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Dreadlocks Are Easy to Get!"....The Hard Part Is.......
Message-ID: <200101081110.DAA17411@toad.com>

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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 00:10:55 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:10:55 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell sites
reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
from region to region.

GPS, as you know, relies on the satellite GPS system which requires special
electronics and antenna systems that neither US-based (cdma, tdma, etc.) nor
Europe-based (GSM) nor Japan based cell phone systems incorporate into cell
phones.  The only system which MAY have included GPS (but I don't think they
included it though they could have) was IRIDIUM, which is now used by the US
Navy and US Special Forces units for remote communications...yes IRIDIUM is
still alive and kicking.  Turns out their satellite-to-satellite
communication, which uses direct laser communication, is pretty secure. :)

IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
conversation.  Digital cell phones use padded encryption keys which
effectively dummy down overall encryption.  If you cryptanalyze a
transmission you'll find a nice, consistent pad of zeros in every key (how
thoughtful to make the padding so consistent!)

phillip zakas

-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 12:59 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: cell phone anonymity






On the larger purchases, the costs drop down to the forty-cents-a-minute
range.  Totally worth it if you really *need* anonymity on the phone.

Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips
for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by
a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for
someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its
exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.  (I don't
know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether
removing the main batteries will stop it).  So if you're into hard
anonymity, keep it inside a faraday cage when you're not using it and
don't use it from inside your own dwelling.

Faraday cages don't have to be fancy; a fruitcake tin will usually do.

					Bear


On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

>But, the rates on the prepaid services are
>exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
>smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
>always, you don't get more than you pay for.
>
>PHM
>
>Andrew Jenks wrote:
>>
>> In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
>> computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
>> locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and
you're
>> done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
>> available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
>> Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> X-Loop: openpgp.net
>> From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
>> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
>> Subject: cell phone anonymity
>>
>> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
>> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
>> developed
>> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
>> info,
>> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
>>
>> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
>> UK and the rest of europe.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>--
>Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
>PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
>
>







From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Jan  8 03:11:31 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:11:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SEC Investigation into VA Linux IPO
Message-ID: <200101081111.GAA07835@www9.aa.psiweb.com>


It's a "Front Page" article at wsj.com.

There is free 30-day registration for access to the site.




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Mon Jan  8 04:35:36 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:35:36 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <03fd01c0791b$99751940$0100a8c0@golem> from "Me" at Jan 07, 2001 09:34:29 PM
Message-ID: <200101081235.f08CZMR13000@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


> >    Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked.
> Asscroft,
> > the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his
> ultra-fascist voting
> > record. Gag. Barf.
> 
> Yes, but I bet he will burn very few children to death in a
> church during his first year.


    No, instead he'll probably burn pot smokers at the stake by the 
millions. 

> 
> Nothing short of him raping babies with a ricin dildo while
> banning swear words on the internet as he runs naked through a
> synagogue singing horst wessel could put him below Reno.
> 
     I'm sure he'll be right in there, maybe a trifle different, but on 
the same par. This is the New World Order after all, Reno\Asscroft -- 
Gush\Bore, what's the diff? Your ass will end up a slave either way.


> And what the hell is an ultra-fascist?

    Ummm -- you have a dictionary? He's certainly more fascist than David 
Duke, for instance. Or the average pig on the beat. 
 


-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From dtolbert at g2a.net  Mon Jan  8 07:41:40 2001
From: dtolbert at g2a.net (donald)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 07:41:40 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010108074140.00796650@pop.g2a.net>


send me photo free




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Jan  8 05:17:51 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:17:51 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <a05010400b67c26d34f41@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:
> 
 
> I'm now 49, and "car" has been much more common in these United
> States than "automobile"  has been, in my lifetime.
> 
> Further, I often hear Britishisms which are far longer and more
> labored than the American equivalents. For example:
> 
> "articulated lorry" vs. "semi"
> 
> "redundant" vs. "laid-off"
> 
> "Mackintosh" vs. "raincoat"

"redundant" which has a technical legal meaning that is different from
"laid-off" (which we also use).
"artic" & "mac" are both normal (though the second now old-fashioned -
who wears raincoats any more anyway?)

 
> "Pantechnicon" = "moving van"
> 
> (I only learned this last one on a site devoted to Britishisms vs.
> Americanisms.)

Don't believe all you read on the web :-)  I wouldn't have known
"pantechnicon" was a van if you'd asked me. And  we used to think you
didn't have the word "van"  - we thought you always said "truck" or
"pick-up". (Though when I went to Texas my colleagues seemed to use the
word "van" to include passenger vehicles - the large car/small bus sort
of thing that gets sold as a "people mover" over here. For us a "van" is
for carrying things more than people, though plenty of drivers use them
as cars)

Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
for a while)

As you said:

> Fact is, both dialects of English have longer versions of the same 
> basic word than other dialects have.
> Which is preferable is a matter of taste and familiarity.

and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
"Randy" is a name in the US, even if we snigger when we hear it, and any
American spending more than 5 minutes in Britain UK would find out that
a "fag" is a cigarette, so no harm done.

If there is any chance of confusion it is in the connotations of speech
rather than the denotations. "Homely" has the same literal meaning
(home-like, reminiscent of home) on both sides of the Atlantic but in
Britain it is emotionally slightly positive (Tolkien's "Last Homely
House") & in the US very negative,  mostly used as a euphemism for
"ugly". The same applies ot tone of voice.    Brits (& Australians) seem
mostly less sensitive to insult than Americans but more to sarcasm &
irony. So we can sometimes be rude to you & you don't notice - and we
can be friendly and you think we are being rude. And presumably it works
the other way round as well. The society that invented the breakfast
meeting must have developed many exquisite verbal tortures that us
plainspeaking Brits miss out on.

Ken





From segen at gmx.co.uk  Mon Jan  8 00:26:50 2001
From: segen at gmx.co.uk (Segen Tselalu)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:26:50 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Crypto Law in Eastern Europe
References: <4546.978940912@www37.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <24240.978942410@www37.gmx.net>


Subject: DES-3DES Encryption - Legal Restriction

Dear Sir-Madame

I am preparing a VPN solution for a Dessertation, using DES 56 bit
and 3DES 3x56 bit encryption . Therefore I would like to ask you if you
are aware of any local legal issues in the following countries. Please
could
you write beside each country, what the situation is.

> >  > Azherbeidshan
> >  >
> >  > Armenia
> >  >
> >  > Belarus
> >  >
> >  > Bosnia
> >  >
> >  > Bulgaria
> >  >
> >  > Croatia
> >  >
> >  > Czech Republic
> >  >
> >  > Estonia
> >  >
> >  > Georgia
> >  >
> >  > Greece
> >  >
> >  > Hungary
> >  >
> >  > Kazakstan
> >  >
> >  > Kyrgyzstan
> >  >
> >  > Lativa
> >  >
> >  > Lithuania
> >  >
> >  > Macedonia
> >  >
> >  > Poland
> >  >
> >  > Romania
> >  >
> >  > Russia
> >  >
> >  > Slovakia
> >  >
> >  > Turkey
> >  >
> >  > Ukraine
> >  >
> >  > Uzbekistan
> >  >
> >  > Yugoslavia
> >  >
> >  > Thanks in advance, and keep the good work up.
> >  >
> >  > Regards
> >  > Segen


-- 
Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From adam at homeport.org  Mon Jan  8 07:40:37 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:40:37 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010108104448.A15487@weathership.homeport.org>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 12:59:26AM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips 
| for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by 
| a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for 
| someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its 
| exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.  (I don't 
| know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether 
| removing the main batteries will stop it).  So if you're into hard 

There are a couple of location technologies in use.  GPS is not (as
far as I know) actually deployed.  Much more common is triangulation,
generally without the handset's cooperation.  New phones will have
tools in them to help with the triangulation process.  All of these
will work if the phone is switched on.  GSM phones talk to the network 
regularly for call-routing optimization purposes.

The E911 requirements in the US include a requirement for covert 
"authorized" querying of the phone's location.  Doubtless, this
message will be strongly authenticated by a police-only PKI, and your
phone will log it for later audit purposes.

You might want to look at 3GPP TS 22.071 or 23.171, which can be found
off of http://www.3gpp.org/3G_Specs/3G_Specs.htm

Also, I'll point out that it should be possible to combine the RF
fingerprinting techniques being used to combat cloning with
triangulation techniques, and track phones regardless of what crypto
they're using.  You are, after all, carrying around a broadcasting
radio.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From freeflow at themail.com  Sun Jan  7 18:57:03 2001
From: freeflow at themail.com (freeflow at themail.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:57:03 +0800
Subject: FREE...VisaCard Pays Up To 10 Levels!!!
Message-ID: <200101080257.KAA29741@smtp23.singnet.com.sg>



Hi,


Wishing you a happy and prosperous 2001!

Take a quick look at the Free Visa Card program.
They're giving away free Visa cards with free flight miles on any airline and paying MLM commissions to refer other Cardholders.
They pay out on a huge 10-level plan ($10 for the first level and $2 on the next nine).

You already know how many millions of dollars that kind of multiplication can generate. Nobody buys a thing. The money comes from the bank because of the value of cardholders. This thing is spreading like wildfire. Please check it out.

Request for info!
mailto:amzin at usa.com?subject=Vinfo pls!

Regards.

.................................................................
**This is a one-time mailing.  There is no need to remove yourself to stop further mailings.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jan  8 08:01:57 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:01:57 -0500
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB1F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.

Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on
just this issue over a post he sent telling us to look
at slashdot. He responded with obscenities, ordering
me to not send him any more private mail.

I took issue with the tone of his letter (most people
PREFER having their nettiquette lapses pointed out
privately), and responded (politely) to that effect. Jim 
evidently felt this was unacceptable, and attempted to
alert my management. I haven't heard from them, and
assume they gave his rant (he included the
corrospondance, with his obscenity laden missive
alternating with my civil language) all the attention it
merited.

Peter Trei

(I'm posting this to the list, as he would seem to
prefer).


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> Reply To: 	Jim Choate
> Sent: 	Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:47 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	CDR: Re: Functional quantum computer?
> 
> 
> Hi Meyer,
> 
> Unfortunately there is no guarantee the URL is stable either.
> 
> The point being you've got the topic and they have a search engine.
> 
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > > http://www.sciencedaily.com
> > 
> > Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> > ever encountered. One would expect sciencedaily.com's website to change
> > daily. Hence the name. Now, when someone reads this message of yours two
> > weeks from now and wants to see what it is that you were talking about,
> > they're not going to be able to find it. Quantum computing will have
> been
> > replaced by stories of monkeys trading sexual favors for food in the
> front
> > page headlines.
> > 
> > "Well, I have to do it this way or Tim will yell at me for posting HTML"
> > you say.
> > 
> > Wrong. Post a direct link. Everyone's happy. You don't look stupid. We
> all
> > win.
> > 
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010105075630.htm
> > 
> > Now, is that so hard?
> > 
> > 
> > - -MW-
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > Comment: No comment.
> > 
> > iQEVAwUBOliJESsFU3q6vVI9AQETuAf+MFCuR1YIODPVWJT0u9jlUuxga/ICBIXB
> > vOFEXMXfhWGGd1IERVHaUCr5cJFMD2apHJXYDqoWNOwFqUQyQWlk4pNog322kte0
> > pJ9TDJT1Np5xRQB40okyjG1aYzoJ7NFCOdFmEBaTZXfvnKr+ho4npb9gW2MMX5xF
> > e5JY4yn2Ex2im8wQDP2U80oDRW2GOxp10H0bF2cmQYMNt6gJBIa3RCFPVGpNAhuu
> > +t6DfnvhwyU4DTagCwLiD2DR7BwRvr/CF17LR5DAeazWjT98NYHw5XNNKf+a/1S3
> > WpLIQWT8qEb9VJCsdih+dB32twcBz+O5nbWTgwpBOsTb6kC1KvCZZw==
> > =xByv
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> 





From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 08:11:03 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:11:03 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:

>
>Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
>calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell sites
>reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
>good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
>believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
>(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
>from region to region.
>

Hm.  Okay.  I knew there were locators in them, and had assumed that 
they were GPS.  My mistake.  

Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be 
queried for their locations while not in use?


>IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
>conversation. 

Yes indeed.  Privacy is a tougher thing to achieve than anonymity, 
at least with cell phones. 

				Bear








From larsg at trustix.com  Mon Jan  8 02:30:42 2001
From: larsg at trustix.com (Lars Gaarden)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:30:42 +0100
Subject: Crypto Law in Eastern Europe
References: <4546.978940912@www37.gmx.net> <24240.978942410@www37.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3A5996D2.2682BC8E@trustix.com>


Segen Tselalu wrote:
> 
> Subject: DES-3DES Encryption - Legal Restriction
> 
> Dear Sir-Madame
> 
> I am preparing a VPN solution for a Dessertation, using DES 56 bit
> and 3DES 3x56 bit encryption . Therefore I would like to ask you if you
> are aware of any local legal issues in the following countries. Please
> could
> you write beside each country, what the situation is.

The following link should give you the answer to at
least a few of the countries.

http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm#toc

-- 
LarsG




From roy at scytale.com  Mon Jan  8 08:39:06 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:39:06 -0500
Subject: CPS-2 Broken
Message-ID: <000501c07991$569184d0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:17 AM
Subject: CPS-2 Broken


>
>http://slashdot.org


Christ, Choate!  Is it SO bloody hard to do a proper link?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/07/0246252

Note that 15 minutes after you posted this non-pointer, the story had
already slid off the Slashdot front page.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 08:39:50 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:39:50 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


Hi,

I don't believe cell phones can be queried while they're off.  The phone has
to xmit a pulse (to hear a pulse, crank up your PC speakers, turn on your
cell phone and place it within 3 inces of a speaker...you'll hear the
speakers produce static at a regular interval [about every 30 seconds or so
with my startac]).  In an unscientific study, I've placed my cell phone,
turned off, next to the speakers and not heard the familiar pulse.  Also
since you posed the question I ripped open my recently acquired Motorolla
Timeport.  Not seeing any activity in the xmit circuitry when the battery is
plugged in and the power is turned off.  Of course I'm having trouble
putting the case back on the phone correctly but I'll figure that out later
;)

phillip zakas




-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: Ray Dillinger [mailto:bear at sonic.net]
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 11:10 AM
To: Phillip Zakas
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: cell phone anonymity




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:

>
>Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
>calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell
sites
>reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
>good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
>believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
>(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
>from region to region.
>

Hm.  Okay.  I knew there were locators in them, and had assumed that
they were GPS.  My mistake.

Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be
queried for their locations while not in use?


>IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
>conversation.

Yes indeed.  Privacy is a tougher thing to achieve than anonymity,
at least with cell phones.

				Bear









From gbartoo at NYCAP.rr.com  Mon Jan  8 08:45:00 2001
From: gbartoo at NYCAP.rr.com (Gerald Bartoo)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:45:00 -0500
Subject: Echelon
Message-ID: <000a01c07992$58eeb940$f637a118@nycap.rr.com>

This piece about the Norwegian Police being able to monitor cellular phones is only part of the international conspiracy maintaiened by Governments to monitor all communications by those it considers to be subversive under ECHELON type activities.
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Jan  8 04:35:54 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 12:35:54 +0000
Subject: cell phone anonymity
References: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A59B42A.F5472FAB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Trivial in UK - walk into shop, pick one off shelves, walk to counter,
pay money. They sell them in supermarkets & video rental shops now.  

Last year's most common Christmas present. My Mum and my daughter both
got one. When you open the packet you can start talking within minutes.
The battery even had charge on it. There was bumf asking you to
"register" for which you got 5 pounds "free call time" but nothing to
stop you making calls without registering. 

Ken

montag montag wrote:
> 
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan  8 09:38:47 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:38:47 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <a05010406b67faa1e98b4@[207.111.241.161]>


At 8:17 AM -0500 1/8/01, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
>instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
>Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
>for a while)

The most interesting Britishism to suddenly invade our shores and 
spread rapidly is "gone missing." I'm now hearing this in American 
movies, t.v. shows, and, importantly, television news. "The hunt is 
on for the fugitives in Texas who have gone missing." This is 
definitely new to our shores; I'm surprised (and pleased) at how 
rapidly it has spread.

"At university" and "at hospital" have not become common (though "at 
college" and "at school" are fully equivalent and are common).

>
>As you said:
>
>>  Fact is, both dialects of English have longer versions of the same
>>  basic word than other dialects have.
>>  Which is preferable is a matter of taste and familiarity.
>
>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
>"Randy" is a name in the US, even if we snigger when we hear it, and any
>American spending more than 5 minutes in Britain UK would find out that
>a "fag" is a cigarette, so no harm done.

You must be a bum.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 10:07:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:07:03 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 03:10:55AM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <20010108123015.A27769@cluebot.com>




On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 03:10:55AM -0500, Phillip Zakas wrote:
> 
> Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
> calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell sites
> reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
> good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
> believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
> (where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies

For now; future trends include GPS. See an article I wrote below.

-Declan


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40623,00.html

Qualcomm, for instance, said that its gpsONE technology shifts the
choice to whomever is holding the handset. The user has three choices:
a default of always on or always off, the option of deciding every
time the device is used, or choosing which applications will reveal
the information.

The company argues that providing its customers with that flexibility
will give them even more options than they enjoy with landline phones,
which often reveal the subscription address of the person paying for
the service. The gpsONE technology, which uses both GPS technology and
base station triangulation, can locate a user within a diameter of 5
to 15 meters outdoors, and 30 to 60 meters indoors.





From jfoti at nist.gov  Mon Jan  8 10:20:18 2001
From: jfoti at nist.gov (Jim Foti)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 13:20:18 -0500
Subject: Update on NIST crypto standards
Message-ID: <mailman.350.1576007488.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Hello-

Here is a brief update on NIST's crypto standards efforts:

1.  On January 5, 2001, we announced a Draft FIPS for HMAC (Keyed-Hash 
Message Authentication Code) that is a generalization of HMAC as specified 
in Internet RFC 2104 and ANSI X9.71.  A 90-day public comment period ends 
April 5, 2001.  Details are available at <http://www.nist.gov/hmac>.

2.  On January 2, 2001, we posted a white paper that discusses our plans 
for developing standards and recommendations for public key-based key 
management.  This will be a two-part process, involving the development of 
1) a scheme definition document, and 2) a key management guideline.  This 
paper is available at <http://www.nist.gov/kms>.

3.  The Draft FIPS for the AES is anticipated for release for public review 
in the very near future.  Final approvals for the release of this document 
are pending.  When an announcement is made, information on the draft and 
for providing public comments will be available at <http://www.nist.gov/aes>.

Best regards and Happy New Year,

Jim

[This note is being sent to those people who have attended any of NIST's 
AES conferences, the Key Management Standard (KMS) workshop in February 
2000, the Modes of Operation workshop in October 2000, or who have 
expressed other interest in our efforts.  If you would not like to receive 
similar notices in the future (which should be infrequent), please let me 
know, and we will remove you from our email distribution list.]

*******************************************************************
Jim Foti

Computer Security Division
Information Technology Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
100 Bureau Drive, Mail Stop 8930
Gaithersburg, MD  20899-8930
USA

TEL: (301) 975-5237
FAX: (301) 948-1233
jfoti at nist.gov
*******************************************************************



------- End of Forwarded Message



		--Steve Bellovin






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jan  8 10:23:45 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:23:45 -0500 
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB22@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


Experience in Scotland this summer:

Walk into store.
Plunk down 40 pounds + VAT.
Pick up boxed phone.
Walk out.


> ----------
> From: 	montag montag[SMTP:cels451 at yahoo.com]
> Reply To: 	montag montag
> Sent: 	Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:06 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: 	cell phone anonymity
> 
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
> 




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 10:24:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:24:40 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010108104448.A15487@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 10:40:37AM -0500
References: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <20010108104448.A15487@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <20010108123208.B27769@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 10:40:37AM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> The E911 requirements in the US include a requirement for covert 
> "authorized" querying of the phone's location.  Doubtless, this
> message will be strongly authenticated by a police-only PKI, and your
> phone will log it for later audit purposes.

Yes. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,40623,00.html

Probably the biggest push toward including location information came,
ironically enough, from the federal government. In 1996 the Federal
Communications Commission began the lengthy process of requiring
cell-phone companies to build location-broadcasting

The justification: enhanced 911 service, which lets emergency workers
find you when you're on the road.

The FCC required that of all the handsets sold by carriers by December
2001, 25 percent must support location broadcasts, and 100 percent
must by December 2002. By December 2005, 95 percent of all handsets in
use must be able to broadcast location data, tNow that the regulations
are in place -- status reports were due last month -- businesses are
considering what else to do with the features.

-Declan





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan  8 10:44:14 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:44:14 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010408b67fb7fada6a@[207.111.241.161]>


At 12:59 AM -0500 1/8/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On the larger purchases, the costs drop down to the forty-cents-a-minute
>range.  Totally worth it if you really *need* anonymity on the phone. 
>
>Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips
>for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by

Which of these phones have built-in GPS? Gonna be a real shock to 
Trimble, Magellan, and Garmin that the GPS units they're still 
selling for $100 and up are competing with cellphones given out free 
with new accounts!


GPS is getting cheaper, and may someday appear in even inexpensive 
cellphones, but that day has not yet come.


>a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for
>someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its
>exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.

Why do you believe this to be so?

>(I don't
>know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether
>removing the main batteries will stop it).

A backup battery is likely only usable for the local storage of 
temporary parameters, and probably not even that. I don't recall any 
mention with either my Motorola Star-Tac or my current Nokia about 
backup batteries.

Which means that when the main battery pack is removed, the circuitry 
is "OFF." No power to transmit. (And forget passive sensing, as with 
some radio or t.v. tuning coils of old, as that required being very 
close to the coils to detect resonances. And no longer even 
applicable, what with digital tuners.)


>  So if you're into hard
>anonymity, keep it inside a faraday cage when you're not using it and
>don't use it from inside your own dwelling.
>
>Faraday cages don't have to be fancy; a fruitcake tin will usually do.

Removing the battery is easier. Turning the phone off is _probably_ 
(I am convinced of this, but haven't studied it in detail) enough to 
stop any location detection, at least with the current generations of 
cellphones.

(The very long battery life of a turned-off Nokia vs. a turned-on 
Nokia tells us a lot about what it could possibly be transmitting.)

As for Faraday cages, there are easier options that a fruitcake tin. 
Reception is bad enough in mountainous areas  like mine.

Ray, you seem knowledgeable in some areas. But your pontifications on 
California basements, cellphone GPS, etc., are very "Choatean" in 
nature. Something you might want to look at.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From bram at gawth.com  Mon Jan  8 14:03:37 2001
From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:03:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Steven Levy Book Tour
In-Reply-To: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081402240.23016-100000@ultra.gawth.com>


On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:

> "CRYPTO: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government - Saving 
> Privacy in the Digital Age."

Yeah, I can remember back in the days before almost all mail was
encrypted, and when nearly all online transactions were done via credit
card.

Boy am I glad those days are over.

-Bram Cohen

"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                        -- John Maynard Keynes




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 11:14:43 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:14:43 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



This pretty much kiboshes the idea that they might be continuously 
broadcasting; I'm more concerned about the idea that there may be 
some signal they're passively listening for, to which they will 
*respond* with a pulse signalling their location. 

			Bear



On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I don't believe cell phones can be queried while they're off.  The phone has
>to xmit a pulse (to hear a pulse, crank up your PC speakers, turn on your
>cell phone and place it within 3 inces of a speaker...you'll hear the
>speakers produce static at a regular interval [about every 30 seconds or so
>with my startac]).  In an unscientific study, I've placed my cell phone,
>turned off, next to the speakers and not heard the familiar pulse.  Also
>since you posed the question I ripped open my recently acquired Motorolla
>Timeport.  Not seeing any activity in the xmit circuitry when the battery is
>plugged in and the power is turned off.  Of course I'm having trouble
>putting the case back on the phone correctly but I'll figure that out later
>;)
>
>phillip zakas
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>X-Loop: openpgp.net
>From: Ray Dillinger [mailto:bear at sonic.net]
>Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 11:10 AM
>To: Phillip Zakas
>Cc: Multiple recipients of list
>Subject: RE: cell phone anonymity
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:
>
>>
>>Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
>>calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell
>sites
>>reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
>>good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
>>believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
>>(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
>>from region to region.
>>
>
>Hm.  Okay.  I knew there were locators in them, and had assumed that
>they were GPS.  My mistake.
>
>Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be
>queried for their locations while not in use?
>
>
>>IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
>>conversation.
>
>Yes indeed.  Privacy is a tougher thing to achieve than anonymity,
>at least with cell phones.
>
>				Bear
>
>
>
>
>
>





From adam at homeport.org  Mon Jan  8 11:17:45 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:17:45 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010108142146.A17321@weathership.homeport.org>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 11:11:03AM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be 
| queried for their locations while not in use?

Define use.

If your phone is on, it can be queried for location.  I strongly
recommend reading the fine specifications for this stuff.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Mon Jan  8 15:04:39 2001
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:04:39 -0800
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010108142422.A6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <20010108142422.A6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <p05001903b67ff6074763@[192.168.16.228]>


>Indeed, Motorola has done a good job building their pagers so that they'll
>run a long time on a relatively small battery, because they've got internal
>timers which shut down even the receive circuitry between transmission
>cycles; they wake up every so often to listen for pages, then go back to
>sleep - if they go outside a coverage area, the battery life drops
>substantially because the receive circuitry is active full-time waiting
>to find a familiar signal.
>
>I have no information that this technique has been used in cellphones - or
>will be - but it's already in consumer-grade technology that's been shipping
>in volume for years now. So it's certainly not difficult to build a
>wireless device which remains active on very low power, waiting for a
>signal from its Real Owner to wake up and do something.

The PCS cell phones that I have owned all had this property as well.
When there is no coverage, the battery life drops dramatically.

However, after about 15 minutes of this, the phone goes into "power save"
mode, in which it doesn't listen all the time.
-- 
-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Idio Software   <mailto:mclow at mailhost2.csusm.edu>

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 12:23:57 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:23:57 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010108123015.A27769@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMECNCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


Thanks for pointing out the article -- love learning new things.  Didn't
realize companies were moving so quickly to GPS.  Not sure how well it would
work in urban areas or buildings (hence I guess the two mode system of
triangulation and GPS in one).

phillip

-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 1:07 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: cell phone anonymity





On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 03:10:55AM -0500, Phillip Zakas wrote:
>
> Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
> calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell
sites
> reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
> good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
> believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated
areas
> (where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies

For now; future trends include GPS. See an article I wrote below.

-Declan


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40623,00.html

Qualcomm, for instance, said that its gpsONE technology shifts the
choice to whomever is holding the handset. The user has three choices:
a default of always on or always off, the option of deciding every
time the device is used, or choosing which applications will reveal
the information.

The company argues that providing its customers with that flexibility
will give them even more options than they enjoy with landline phones,
which often reveal the subscription address of the person paying for
the service. The gpsONE technology, which uses both GPS technology and
base station triangulation, can locate a user within a diameter of 5
to 15 meters outdoors, and 30 to 60 meters indoors.







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From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Jan  8 12:54:06 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:54:06 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b67faa1e98b4@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10101082027211.78693-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>


[Apologies for continuing this odd thread but ...]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> >Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
> >instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
> >Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
> >for a while)
> 
> The most interesting Britishism to suddenly invade our shores and 
> spread rapidly is "gone missing." I'm now hearing this in American 
> movies, t.v. shows, and, importantly, television news. "The hunt is 
> on for the fugitives in Texas who have gone missing." This is 
> definitely new to our shores; I'm surprised (and pleased) at how 
> rapidly it has spread.
> 
> "At university" and "at hospital" have not become common (though "at 

The more common British term is "in hospital".  I don't recall
ever hearing anyone say "at hospital".

There are innumerable small distinctions in usage .  If you are 
in hospital, you are ill, not a member of the staff.  

Your being ill may the result of an injury.  That is, the same
term covers both sicknesses and injuries.  If you are in hospital
because of a broken back, people will say that you are ill.

If you are sick, on the other hand, it means that you have vomited.

> college" and "at school" are fully equivalent and are common).

They aren't equivalent at all.  In the UK [young] children go to 
"school" and "college" generally refers to something very roughly 
equivalent to either an American senior high school or junior
college.  My company has university students spending a year or
so with us on placement; if you ask them when they are going back
to school, they tend to be offended, thinking you are poking fun at 
them.  Taking the mickey, that is.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015





From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Jan  8 13:02:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:02:38 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010108125838.007c7100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:17 AM 1/8/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know

The meaning of 'billion' differs by three orders of magnitude 
across the pond.  That's plenty of room for confusion :-) 



 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Jan  8 13:16:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:16:10 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b67faa1e98b4@[207.111.241.161]>
References: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010108131326.007d67a0@pop.sprynet.com>


>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. 

So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.




 






  








From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan  8 14:18:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:18:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB1F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108161701.25692X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.

By the bitching you and others are making it's not I who has the problem.
I have none (zero, nadah, null, nil).

> Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on

And I told you to stop, you didn't. Don't give me consideration then don't
bitch when you don't get it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





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From: k_quy at IVER.bighits.com (k_quy at IVER.bighits.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:49:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New MILL - time to make money with YOUR PC - cypherpunks! -XIVV
Message-ID: <200101090049.QAA07088@cyberpass.net>


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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Jan  8 13:57:49 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:57:49 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
Message-ID: <3A5A3897.6C5EC6F9@lsil.com>


>>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. 
>
>So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
>her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.
>
That's where technology can help : catch it on video.





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan  8 14:09:49 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:09:49 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
Message-ID: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew
Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, 
in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on 
January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the 
applicant. 

The agents asked no questions except to verify my identity. 
The principal agent, Mr. Jack, referred me to Special  Agent 
Jeff Gordon for questions if I had any, and presented a note 
with Jeff's name, title, Treasury office, and phone number.
Mr. Jack said they knew nothing about the case and were only 
serving the subpoena. I asked for Mr. McWhirr's name, borrowed
his pen to jot both names -- neither had cards, only badges to
show. Mr. Jack said they were with Treasury Inspector
General for Tax Adminstration (TIGTA), as is Jeff.

The date of the subpoena is December 27, 2000, and was
faxed to New York at 8:36 AM today. 

The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not 
disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a 
disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation."

The subpoena is one page, with two pages of attachments,
one titled "Information for Grand Jury Witnesses," the other
a description of arrangements for reimbursement of
expenses.

The subpoena orders:

  You are commanded to appear and testify before the Grand
  Jury at place, date and time (as given above).

And,

  You are also commanded to bring with you the following
  document(s) or object(s):

  Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
  disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
  in your possession or under your control, including electronically
  stored or computer records, which:

    1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
    Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or

    2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
    or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or

    3. Contain the names, addresses, license plate numbers, or any
    other identifying information involving any Government employees.

  This subpoena shall remain in effect until you are granted leave to
  depart by the court or by an officer acting on behalf of the court.

-----

We'll do a full transcription of the whole shebang to post on Cryptome 
tonight.

Nothing in the subpoena indicates that it is restricted to the current
interstate stalking charges against Jim. Those charges are
not mentioned.

Anybody else who got one of these, or other subpoenas, and 
wants to share send it over. Our fax: 212-787-6102. Delete any 
info you don't want to be public.





From Courses at raven-villages.net  Mon Jan  8 14:16:55 2001
From: Courses at raven-villages.net (webmaster)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:16:55 -0500
Subject: FREE COURSES JUST FOR YOU !!
Message-ID: <200101090432.UAA05099@toad.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan  8 15:18:24 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:18:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA

The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this about
it:

America's Most Secret Agency

The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic intelligence
information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the director,
Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is watching
you!






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Mon Jan  8 14:24:31 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:24:31 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 02:14:43PM -0500
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010108142422.A6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 02:14:43PM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> This pretty much kiboshes the idea that they might be continuously 
> broadcasting; I'm more concerned about the idea that there may be 
> some signal they're passively listening for, to which they will 
> *respond* with a pulse signalling their location. 

Indeed, Motorola has done a good job building their pagers so that they'll
run a long time on a relatively small battery, because they've got internal
timers which shut down even the receive circuitry between transmission
cycles; they wake up every so often to listen for pages, then go back to 
sleep - if they go outside a coverage area, the battery life drops 
substantially because the receive circuitry is active full-time waiting
to find a familiar signal.

I have no information that this technique has been used in cellphones - or
will be - but it's already in consumer-grade technology that's been shipping
in volume for years now. So it's certainly not difficult to build a 
wireless device which remains active on very low power, waiting for a 
signal from its Real Owner to wake up and do something. 

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604





From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 14:31:15 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:31:15 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010108125838.007c7100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081420310.17867-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

>At 08:17 AM 1/8/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
>
>The meaning of 'billion' differs by three orders of magnitude 
>across the pond.  That's plenty of room for confusion :-) 
>

And in the US, "billiards" is a game played with cues and balls 
on a felt-covered slate table.  In the UK, it's also a very large 
number.  Thankfully, so large that that definition rarely comes 
into conversation.  As I understand cross-pond conversions, it 
goes like this....

USA          UK           Scientific
Thousand     Thousand      1E3
Million      Million       1E6
Billion      Milliard      1E9
Trillion     Billion       1E12
Quadrillion  Billiard      1E15
Quintillion  Trillion      1E18
Sextillion   Trilliard     1E21
Septillion   Quadrillion   1E24
Octillion    Quadrilliard  1E27
etc          etc           etc


This silliness seems regular, and has no good reason not to 
extend indefinitely.  But perversely, both dialects use the 
same word for googols and larger quantities.

This is one reason why I tend to just say "screw it" and go to 
scientific notation when writing.  That way it's clear what I 
mean no matter where the reader is from.

				Bear






From jburnes at savvis.net  Mon Jan  8 15:35:09 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:35:09 -0600
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Monday 08 January 2001 16:09, John Young wrote:
>   You are also commanded to bring with you the following
>   document(s) or object(s):
>
>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>   in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>   stored or computer records, which:
>
>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>
>     2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
>     or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or

How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
had not been comprimised?

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From commerce at home.com  Mon Jan  8 15:10:08 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:10:08 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <015801c079c8$256aa4e0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Young" <jya at pipeline.com>
>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters,
computer
>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other
items
>   in your possession or under your control, including
electronically
>   stored or computer records, which:
>     3. Contain the names, addresses, license plate numbers, or
any
>     other identifying information involving any Government
employees.

Will they pay any transportation (airline) expenses before the
appearance?

If so, I have a large number of old newspapers and phone-books to
give you.





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From cels451 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  8 19:57:15 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:57:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena 
Message-ID: <20010109035715.20514.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com>


>The purpose of the alleged grand jury of my subpoena
is a 
>mystery, but it's surely ham sandwich bait of some
kind. An
>invitation to perjure or self-incriminate.

Look at the bright side - authugrities are afraid.
Using the
only "legal" recourse left - grand jury sub - to
silence and
intimidate is a clear sign of fear. These are good
times. In bad
times a pot joint would be discovered on JYA premises.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: wm5288 at yahoo.com (Wonka)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:00:00 -0600
Subject: Thousands Are Joining-Monthly for FREE
Message-ID: <200101080600.WAA12260@toad.com>



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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan  8 17:09:37 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:09:37 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101090117.UAA15684@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Jim burnes wrote:

>How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
>that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
>had not been comprimised?

Right. Nor could I know that "Jim Bell" who's was posting to cpunks
is Jim Bell or a Jim Bell being run by London/Gordon et cie.

Remember that a parallel grand jury investigation was announced 
during CJ's trial to spook those who might consider tampering with 
blind justice. Then nothing more was heard of that Robb shot, as 
far as I know.

The purpose of the alleged grand jury of my subpoena is a 
mystery, but it's surely ham sandwich bait of some kind. An
invitation to perjure or self-incriminate.

Jim Bell is, and has been, fed bait since he was released.
Whether he was that before his first bust, that's a reasonable
question. Bell's shit certainly bred to CJ's shafting.

WWA pack believe they've got a winning campaign to keep 
on trucking, using secret agents of persuasion.









From reeza at flex.com  Mon Jan  8 22:55:56 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:55:56 -1000
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108161701.25692X-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB1F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010108205524.00b00f00@flex.com>


Jimbo's a real piece of work, ain't he?

At 04:18 PM 1/8/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
 >
 >> Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.
 >
 >By the bitching you and others are making it's not I who has the problem.
 >I have none (zero, nadah, null, nil).
 >
 >> Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on
 >
 >And I told you to stop, you didn't. Don't give me consideration then don't
 >bitch when you don't get it.
 >
 >    ____________________________________________________________________
 >
 >           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
 >           smaller group must first understand it.
 >
 >                                           "Stranger Suns"
 >                                           George Zebrowski
 >
 >       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
 >       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
 >       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
 >                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
 >    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan  8 21:53:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:53:42 -0800
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010409b680564c0cdf@[207.111.241.161]>



(Choate's various lists, like Inferno and Sci-Tech, removed. We got 
rid of Hettinga's massive list profusion, so adding Choate's seems 
ill-advised.)

At 10:57 PM -0500 1/8/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters.

Ah, but we wired golden staters have satellite, which gives us PBS 
East. However, I was enjoying the warm temps in Santa Cruz, though 
nippy after dark, so you are, it turns out, correct.

>A
>definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
>the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
>with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
>ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
>horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
>for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.
>
>-Declan, channeling JYA

--Tim, reading about JYA's subpoena just after reading Levy's account 
of how we won the crypto war. Hmmmhhhh.

(and after having just caught the late afternoon matinee of 
"Traffic," the excellent film about the nonwinning of the War on Some 
Drugs)

BTW, no apparent subpoenas for moi, which is good. Ignoring both CJ 
Parker/Toto and Jim Bell, except for a couple of early responses, 
seems to have insulated me well.
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 19:57:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 22:57:25 -0500
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>


Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.

-Declan, channeling JYA



On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> To: cryptography at c2.net
> Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
> 
> The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this about
> it:
> 
> America's Most Secret Agency
> 
> The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic intelligence
> information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the director,
> Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is watching
> you!
> 
> 
> 




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan  8 23:09:50 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:09:50 -0800
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <200101081235.f08CZMR13000@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200101081235.f08CZMR13000@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <p04320409b68068948a0a@[10.1.1.42]>


>>  >    Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked.
>>  Asscroft,
>>  > the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his
>>  ultra-fascist voting
>>  > record. Gag. Barf.
>>
>>  Yes, but I bet he will burn very few children to death in a
>>  church during his first year.
>
>
>     No, instead he'll probably burn pot smokers at the stake by the
>millions.

	The main difference being that the Church Goers *think* that 
what they are doing is legal, while the pot smokers (for the most 
part) know that what they are doing is either illegal, or legally 
questionable.

	No, smoking pot *shouldn't* be illegal, but it is. If you get 
caught buying, selling, or smoking, it's you're own damn fault.

	I am not aware of any law against joining or attending a church.

	<I have no argument with the rest>
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From dorr at asc.upenn.edu  Mon Jan  8 20:13:21 2001
From: dorr at asc.upenn.edu (Daniel Orr)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:13:21 -0500 
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
Message-ID: <A1F1578A0269D2119C930008C7F48F48010071DD@ASC02>


 
I agree, most of it was like a bad history of cryptography in America. I
wish I had stuck watching Boston Public.

Last year (1999/early 2000) Congress tacked a requirement onto an
appropriations bill which required the NSA to report on Echelon and
monitoring of American citizens. This was shortly after the director plead
attorney client privilege with the NSA's Chief Counsel.

Does anyone know what happened with this report? Were there any sections not
classified?

-----Original Message-----
From: Declan McCullagh
To: Jim Choate
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; The Club Inferno;
austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
Sent: 1/8/01 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)


Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.

-Declan, channeling JYA



On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>
____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> To: cryptography at c2.net
> Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
> 
> The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this
about
> it:
> 
> America's Most Secret Agency
> 
> The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic
intelligence
> information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the
director,
> Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is
watching
> you!
> 
> 
> 




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan  8 23:18:19 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:18:19 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A5A3897.6C5EC6F9@lsil.com>
References: <3A5A3897.6C5EC6F9@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040ab6806ba5426c@[10.1.1.42]>


>>>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding.
>>
>>So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
>>her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.
>>
>That's where technology can help : catch it on video.

	I think I'm going to be sick...

-- 
Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the 
nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party).
The Ideal we strive for: http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh/bofh/bofh11.html




From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Mon Jan  8 20:59:49 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:59:49 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10101082027211.78693-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>
Message-ID: <B67FF6C6.552%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/8/01 2:54 PM, Jim Dixon at jdd at vbc.net wrote:

> 
> [Apologies for continuing this odd thread but ...]
> 
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:
> 
>>> Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
>>> instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
>>> Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
>>> for a while)
>> 
>> The most interesting Britishism to suddenly invade our shores and
>> spread rapidly is "gone missing." I'm now hearing this in American
>> movies, t.v. shows, and, importantly, television news. "The hunt is
>> on for the fugitives in Texas who have gone missing." This is
>> definitely new to our shores; I'm surprised (and pleased) at how
>> rapidly it has spread.
>> 
>> "At university" and "at hospital" have not become common (though "at
> 
> The more common British term is "in hospital".  I don't recall
> ever hearing anyone say "at hospital".
> 
> There are innumerable small distinctions in usage .  If you are
> in hospital, you are ill, not a member of the staff.
> 
> Your being ill may the result of an injury.  That is, the same
> term covers both sicknesses and injuries.  If you are in hospital
> because of a broken back, people will say that you are ill.
> 
> If you are sick, on the other hand, it means that you have vomited.
> 
>> college" and "at school" are fully equivalent and are common).
> 
> They aren't equivalent at all.  In the UK [young] children go to
> "school" and "college" generally refers to something very roughly
> equivalent to either an American senior high school or junior
> college.  My company has university students spending a year or
> so with us on placement; if you ask them when they are going back
> to school, they tend to be offended, thinking you are poking fun at
> them.  Taking the mickey, that is.
> 
> --
> Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
> tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015
> 
> 
> 
Actually, gone missing has been in common usage in my home area for the past
20 years at least.  My home area being southwestern Arkansas.  This may be
the reason that it has shown up on the news broadcasts for the Texas
fugitives.  Maybe it has already been in use in this small, little part of
the country for awhile.

Bryan Green





From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Mon Jan  8 21:22:26 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:22:26 -0500
Subject: Book Review: The secrets of cryptography
Message-ID: <812c65895e71032c648540dd03e36718@mixmaster.shinn.net>


by Joel Enos
January 08, 2001
J
At last, a book about secret codes that isn't boring or too technical! 


As any kid from any era knows, the pinnacle of privacy is the secret code (from decoder rings to James Bond to Harriet the Spy and beyond). So why is it that when most authors write about cryptography (or, as Steven Levy abbreviates it, "crypto") they leave out the fun factor and simply veer off into computer geek-speak about lines of data and whatnot? Who knows? And who cares now that Levy has written the definitive story of crypto so far, keeping all the excitement and drama surrounding the topic intact. 

Levy's latest work (he's also the author of "Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution," which, when it appeared, made the term a permanent part of our Silicon subculture) has a writing style that's a seamless blend of his other lives, chief technology writer for Newsweek (thus a brisk, to-the-point tone), freelance writer for Wired ("Crypto" is speculative and analytical as much as it is informative) and for Macworld (while the book isn't techie, it's obvious Levy is, and, when he has to, he can explain code, and what it takes to crack one, quickly and easily). 


The result is a riveting story that begins with the meeting of Mary Fischer and Whitfield Diffie in the late '70s and moves on to the present-day controversy surrounding the delicate Internet balance of privacy vs. freely available information. 


The story does explain the background you'll need to comprehend what cryptography is (divisions between public and private keys, where they came from, etc.) and why it's important (many of us may not realize we reap its benefits every day, on everything from ATMs to online shopping), but sticks to the human element of the tale rather than simply "the facts." 


In the end, you get a history lesson and a new set of questions to ponder (such as, where is this all going to go?) filtered through the people at the core of the controversy. Levy interviewed basically all the privacy luminaries, from Fischer and Diffie to Phil Zimmerman (head of Pretty Good Privacy). From them, he's managed to create what reads more like a novel than a history book -- and certainly comes off nothing like a computer history book. 


Empowering the people 

For those who want to jump right to the juicy bits, the best section of Crypto is "Crypto Anarchy" focusing on Zimmerman's "hatred of Big Brother" and his drive to "write his own public key encryption program -- for the people" and the subsequent government backlash. 


Levy includes just enough verbatim legislation from the infamous U.S. Senate Bill 266 from 1991 (as worded by then head of the Senate Judiciary Committee Sen. Joseph Biden) to strike fear in the hearts of all encryption nuts and privacy advocates. 


And his portrayal of Zimmerman as the freeware rebel flying around uploading PGP to the Net via a laptop, acoustic coupler and various pay phones is priceless. 


All in all, "Crypto" is a good introduction to a relatively young public policy issue (how private will the government allow us to be with our electronic communications?) that is only now starting to be addressed or even understood.






From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 21:32:32 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:32:32 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <a05010408b67fb7fada6a@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101082108550.11286-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>Ray, you seem knowledgeable in some areas. But your pontifications on 
>California basements, cellphone GPS, etc., are very "Choatean" in 
>nature. Something you might want to look at.

You can trust anything I say about Math or Programming (especially 
AI and LISP programming -- ie, my job).  A lot of my "rants" in 
fields like architecture, state government, etc, come from situations 
in Kansas, many of which do not apply to California, and I need to 
think twice before speaking once.  Much of the rest (including GPS 
chips in cell phones "within the next couple of years," heard a couple 
of years ago) is gleaned from mainstream media and evidently has its 
share of distortions. 

				Bear

An aside -- Contractors are now building uninsulated homes in Kansas 
(a climate where temperatures range from about 110 fahrenheit to 
-3 fahrenheit over the course of an average year) on floodplains, 
with slab foundations, not even buttressed down to the heave line 
and with no provision for airflow to mediate temperature - and 
people are buying them!  This monumental stupidity was a feature 
of the circus of fools around me for many years, and is still 
where my mind goes by reflex action whenever I hear about electricity 
supply difficulties, power costs and escalating home insurance prices -- 
however irrelevant it may be to the situation in California.  

California, it seems, has its own set of completely different acts 
in the circus of fools, and I'm still learning them....






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 21:45:25 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:45:25 -0500
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDMECGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I also watched the program.  Not very exciting.  The Puzzle Palace by James
Bamford, though dated, is probably the best insight I've read.

I've had a few direct experiences with the NSA over the past years because
of my crypto/tech background.  Strangest experiences: getting yelled at by
an NSA mathematician during several odd negotiations at Ft. Meade in '98; as
chief technologist for a large US online company's endeavors to export a
128-bit browser to its intl. users in '98 (worked with both FBI and NSA on
this -- came close to getting the license too); met with former heads of two
nsa groups who hinted interesting observations on Skipjack, intl crypto
products and relative strength of 128 bit crypto; finally, I was actually
trained in NSA's infosec methodology in 2000 (I even have a certificate from
them for passing the classes...the legal disclaimers on the thing are
priceless -- you can check out some of their classes at www.nsa.gov if you
want details).  ...blah blah some other stuff too which is not nearly as
interesting.  No, though I've been to ft. meade several times i've never
seen the "11 acres of super computers" and i've never seen operations rooms,
etc.  though i have seen some pretty boring cinderblocked conf. rooms in the
middle of upper floors where computers aren't networked at all, the doors
are made of steel and the walls emit a strange low hum; one door had a label
which said: "not much of anything, really".  there's lots of humer like that
all around the place...probably to help break the tension of not being able
to talk about what you do all day every day i imagine.

IMHO the NSA staff are overworked and still in search of a clear, cool and
patriotic uber-mission.  fighting drugs and hackers just isn't as sexy as
manipulating russian satellite image transmissions. Plus funding cuts means
they've scaled back on activities which have normally been the role of the
nsa...must be weird to work there where for years you had all the funding
you needed, and now you're losing funding and staff. Recently, for example,
they stopped performing infosec assessments for large US companies (like
Disney in 1997, clearly because mickey mouse is a national critical icon)
because they don't have enough people to perform the work and while NIST is
now responsible for such things, only the NSA has staff trained to do these
assessments (which is one reason I was trained, and no, i don't work for
nist). Now NSA only performs infosec assessments for US critical
infrastructure (mostly military and r&d sites). In fact the whole PDD-63/us
critical infrastructure thing is very big and right now no one other than
NIST/NSA is assumed to have the knowledge to carry out that mission.  Yet
there are seriously something like only 13 NSA staffers performing the
duties/leading red teams, etc.

I got the strong feeling that Red Team and IW efforts are hot topics of
interest at the NSA (and Army, Navy and AF too).  Thanks in part to
successes in manipulating Milosevic-and-friends banking records during the
Yugoslavia conflict, these areas are receiving a lot of attention.  Watch
for huge growth in activities here (in fact you can see some congressional
funding justifications for IW program using China's, Israel's and Russia's
own official IW ops activities).

BTW, has anyone heard of recent moves to push SS7 phone messaging traffic
over the internet in a bid to boost scalability and LNP resolution speeds?
Three effects: it'll work better than the current SS7 network alone;
improved eavesdropping on conversations which touch land lines (fyi only
phone-to-phone cell phone comms like nextel's two-way-radio feature don't
use land lines I believe); decreased need to try to decipher the message
while it's in the air (it's harder to intercept over the air transmissions).

sorry for the long posting, but thought i could share my small glimpse of
their vast activities.

phillip





-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:57 PM
To: Jim Choate
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; The Club Inferno;
austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)



Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.

-Declan, channeling JYA



On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> To: cryptography at c2.net
> Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
>
> The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this about
> it:
>
> America's Most Secret Agency
>
> The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic intelligence
> information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the director,
> Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is watching
> you!
>
>
>





From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 22:22:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:22:54 -0500
Subject: Anonymous Remailers cpunk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1001016230116.30086J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0500
References: <35ef637b5c366a720f012b20c2beb949@remailer.ch> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1001016230116.30086J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010109012254.A4269@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On 17 Oct 2000, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > Pipe the message into GPG and test the output on STDERR.
> > 
> > There was some perl code posted to the list not too long ago which does this.
> 
> So, now everyone has to use GPG. Why? How do you propose to answer the
> increased attacks on the protocol now that you've made it the monopoly?
> 
> I thought the point of anonymous remailers and commen crypto was to
> enhance liberty rather than enforce (coerce) another standard.

.

This is nonsense. GPG would in this situation not have a monopoly any
more (and in fact less) than SMTP or FTP would be.

Many free market economists believe there is no such thing as a
monopoly sans government intervention.  Even if they're wrong, it is
silly to describe protocols not owned by one entity as a
monopoly. (Who has the "monopoly power," for purposes of legal
analysis, for instance?)

The point of anonymous remailers and commonly-used crypto varies
depending on to whom you speak, but there are worse answers than
protecting liberty. And those who defend it know that coercion is done
by someone holding a gun to your head, not by someone suggestion
a protocol on a mailing list.

But of course this is Jim Choate.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 22:44:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:44:59 -0500
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <A1F1578A0269D2119C930008C7F48F48010071DD@ASC02>; from dorr@asc.upenn.edu on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 11:13:21PM -0500
References: <A1F1578A0269D2119C930008C7F48F48010071DD@ASC02>
Message-ID: <20010109014459.B4269@cluebot.com>


Ah, yes, I remember this. According to one article
(http://208.201.97.5/ref/hottopics/security/background/web-clinton-12-08-99.html) it was in FY2K appropriations, so report was long due.


---
According to language in a report on the bill, the CIA and NSA must
address the following in their report to congress:

The legal standards for interception of communications to or from
U.S. citizens.

The legal standards for intentional targeting of the communications to
or from U.S. citizens.

The legal standards for receipt from non-U.S. sources of information
pertaining to communications to or from U.S. citizens.

The legal standards for dissemination of information acquired through
the interception of the communications to or from U.S. citizens.
---

I recall it was sent to the relevant intel committees around Feb 00.

-Declan






On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 11:13:21PM -0500, Daniel Orr wrote:
>  
> I agree, most of it was like a bad history of cryptography in America. I
> wish I had stuck watching Boston Public.
> 
> Last year (1999/early 2000) Congress tacked a requirement onto an
> appropriations bill which required the NSA to report on Echelon and
> monitoring of American citizens. This was shortly after the director plead
> attorney client privilege with the NSA's Chief Counsel.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened with this report? Were there any sections not
> classified?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Declan McCullagh
> To: Jim Choate
> Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; The Club Inferno;
> austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
> Sent: 1/8/01 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
> 
> 
> Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
> definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
> the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
> with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
> ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
> horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
> for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.
> 
> -Declan, channeling JYA
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> > 
> >            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
> >            smaller group must first understand it.
> > 
> >                                            "Stranger Suns"
> >                                            George Zebrowski
> > 
> >        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> >        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> >        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> >                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> > From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> > To: cryptography at c2.net
> > Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
> > 
> > The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> > tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this
> about
> > it:
> > 
> > America's Most Secret Agency
> > 
> > The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> > agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic
> intelligence
> > information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> > only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> > cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the
> director,
> > Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> > issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is
> watching
> > you!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 




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From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan  9 01:40:29 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 04:40:29 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: Ray Dillinger's message of "Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:31:15 -0500"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081420310.17867-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <m2k885awtl.fsf@squack.com>


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> writes:

> On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> >At 08:17 AM 1/8/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
> >
> >The meaning of 'billion' differs by three orders of magnitude 
> >across the pond.  That's plenty of room for confusion :-) 

No it doesn't 1,000 million is in more common use now.

> And in the US, "billiards" is a game played with cues and balls 
> on a felt-covered slate table.  In the UK, it's also a very large 
> number.  Thankfully, so large that that definition rarely comes 

I have never heard "billiards" used as a number.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    whenever people agree with me i always feel i must be wrong.
        -- oscar wilde





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Jan  9 03:47:56 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:47:56 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010108131326.007d67a0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3A5AF9ED.53ADB91A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


David Honig wrote:
> 
> >>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding.
> 
> So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
> her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.

You've been listening to those old Max Miller records again, haven't
you?

And they are very old:


"Have you heard about the girl of eighteen who swallowed a pin, but
didn't feel the prick until she was twenty-one?"

"I was walking along this narrow mountain pass - so narrow that nobody
else could pass you, when I saw a beautiful blonde,     with not a
stitch on - yes, not a stitch on, lady. Cor blimey, I didn't know
whether to toss myself off or block her passage."

"Which would you like, the blue book or the white book? You like both
don't you. Listen, I was in Spain four years ago and all the girls wear
little  knives in the top of their stocking. I found that out.........
So I said to myself, I'll find exactly what's the idea in wearing a
knife on the top of the stocking and she said, that's to defend my
honour, I said, what, a little tiny knife like that...... I said that,
if you were in Brighton, you would need a set of carvers!"

et.c et.c et.c

So this woman walks into a pub and asks for a double entendre, and the
barman says "Do you want a large one?"





From davidjel at goingplatinum.com  Tue Jan  9 04:03:48 2001
From: davidjel at goingplatinum.com (davidjel at goingplatinum.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:03:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: An Invitation From David Lamb 
Message-ID: <6178853.979041828320.JavaMail.platweb@atl7mhfl0079>

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From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan  9 08:04:18 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:04:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB26@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

>[Jim: It's ok that you have no problem with
>your ineffective methods of giving pointers
>to articles, but your wasting your own and
>other's time - there's simply no reason for
>people to follow your links, since they are
>generally useless]

Actually, not *entirely* useless.  Usually right after jim 
talks about an article and posts a link that doesn't point 
at it, someone else will post a correct link.  If Jim 
just shut up, some of these stories probably would escape 
our notice.  In the course of correcting his errors, people 
do provide useful information.

			Bear





From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Jan  9 06:14:19 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:14:19 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101091421.JAA11938@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


We've completed transcription of the subpoena and attachments:

   http://cryptome.org/jdb-subpoena.htm

The Information for Grand Jury Witnesses says, 

  "The witness is required to answer all questions asked, 
  except to the extent that a truthful answer to a question 
  would tend to incriminate the witness. A knowingly false 
  answer to any question could be the basis for a prosecution 
  of the witness for perjury. Anything a Grand Jury witness 
  says which tends to incriminate him may be used against 
  him by the Grand Jury, or later used against him in Court."

That's good 5A advice to protect against coercion, intimidation,
squealing, fishing, entrapment, blindsiding, ham sandwiching,
and believing you're saving your ass by disbelieving what the
witness Information threatens:

  "The mere fact that this information accompanies your subpoena
  should not be taken as any indication or suggestion that you
  are under investigation or are likely to be charged with a crime."





From bo.elkjaer at eb.dk  Tue Jan  9 00:27:13 2001
From: bo.elkjaer at eb.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bo_Elkj=E6r?=)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:27:13 +0100 
Subject: GSM encryption. Reduction of algorithm. Interesting doc from GSM 
	Org.
Message-ID: <81485FE4A1E9D111847400805F592CF20347E987@mail.pol.dk>

 <<A5 algorithm key length.rtf>> 
Jørgen Bo Madsen
Fra:	James Moran [james.moran at gsm.org]
Sendt:	3. december 1999 12:02
Til:	Jørgen Erik Bo Madsen
Emne:	A5 algorithm key length

Prioritet:	Høj
Jorgen,

Below you will find the answers to the questions posed in your letter
dated 12th October.

1.	Is the implementation of European GSM encryption algorithm A5/1
reduced in strength to 54 bits?
	The key length of Kc used in the GSM encryption is 64 bits but
10 of the bits are set to 0. Therefore the effective key length is 54 bits.

2.	Is the implementation of the A5/1 encryption algorithm used in
one or more GSM systems in Denmark reduced in strength to 54 bits?
	I can confirm that A5 must be used by all GSM operators and that
all GSM operators in Denmark currently use the standard algorithm which has
the 54 bit effective key length.

3.	Why is the A5/1 algorithm reduced in strength?
	The key length is determined by control regulations that exist
in many countries regarding the use of encryption. As algorithms are treated
as dual use goods, similar to munitions, their movement and use is
regulated and certain countries place a limit on their strength. As GSM was
designed and developed to be used throughout Europe the design of the
algorithm had to take the restrictions of various countries into account.

4.	Who ordered the reduction of the A5 algorithm?
	The algorithm specifications were written by ETSI SAGE and this
group would have decided on the key length.

If you require anything further do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

James

================================================================

This e-mail is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. As this
e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information, if you are not a
named addressee, or the person responsible for delivering the message to the
named addressee, please telephone the Association immediately on the number
below. The contents should not be disclosed to any other person nor copies
taken.

James Moran
Fraud and Security Director
GSM Association Headquarters
Avoca Court, Temple Road, Blackrock, Co. Dublin, IRELAND.
Phone: +353 1 2091827;
Fax: +353 1 2695958
GSM: +353 86 8565124
Email: james.moran at gsm.org  Web: http://www.gsmworld.com/

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan  9 09:42:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:42:07 -0800
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a0501040cb680fcf033b8@[207.111.241.161]>


At 8:04 AM -0800 1/9/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>>[Jim: It's ok that you have no problem with
>>your ineffective methods of giving pointers
>>to articles, but your wasting your own and
>>other's time - there's simply no reason for
>>people to follow your links, since they are
>>generally useless]
>
>Actually, not *entirely* useless.  Usually right after jim
>talks about an article and posts a link that doesn't point
>at it, someone else will post a correct link.  If Jim
>just shut up, some of these stories probably would escape
>our notice.  In the course of correcting his errors, people
>do provide useful information.
>

Your definition of "useful" is different from mine. I believe lists 
like ours should primarily be about discussions and points of view, 
not a third-hand CNET or Register or Slashdot. There are many Web 
sources of breaking news (not that a lot of the "functional quantum 
computer" sorts of stories are usually breaking news...).

Personally, I like it when someone finds a news item, provides a 
detailed URL, even quotes (in ASCII, not MIME!) a paragraph or two, 
and then comments on it and connects it to Cypherpunks issues.

Merely dumping out "general science" items, with general URLs, is 
just plain abusing the list.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Jan  9 07:00:48 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:00:48 -0500 
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB26@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


He's an existance proof that people can be
intelligent in some areas, yet astoundingly
obtuse in others.

Peter

[Jim: It's ok that you have no problem with
your ineffective methods of giving pointers
to articles, but your wasting your own and
other's time - there's simply no reason for
people to follow your links, since they are
generally useless]

> ----------
> From: 	Reese[SMTP:reeza at flex.com]
> Reply To: 	Reese
> Sent: 	Tuesday, January 09, 2001 1:55 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: 	Re: Functional quantum computer?
> 
> Jimbo's a real piece of work, ain't he?
> 
> At 04:18 PM 1/8/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>  >
>  >On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>  >
>  >> Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.
>  >
>  >By the bitching you and others are making it's not I who has the
> problem.
>  >I have none (zero, nadah, null, nil).
>  >
>  >> Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on
>  >
>  >And I told you to stop, you didn't. Don't give me consideration then
> don't
>  >bitch when you don't get it.
>  >
>  >    ____________________________________________________________________
>  >
>  >           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>  >           smaller group must first understand it.
>  >
>  >                                           "Stranger Suns"
>  >                                           George Zebrowski
>  >
>  >       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>  >       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>  >       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>  >                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>  >    --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Jan  9 11:07:46 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:07:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IRC FUD: Chapter II
Message-ID: <200101091907.f09J7kD26559@artifact.psychedelic.net>


On the heels of the Efnext debacle, I just read this fascinating 
article in Wired News which purports to explain that Usenet is already
dead, and IRC will be next. 

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,41077,00.html

Methinks some people are just a teensy bit too eager to announce the
demise of certain Anarchistic parts of the Net as a forgone conclusion.

Particularly those parts which are used for Horsemen-related activities, 
and exist in a more supervised and LEA accessible form from providers
like AOL.

I'm not buying.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 08:40:50 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:40:50 -0500
Subject: Review of History Channel's NSA documentary
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114029.02473470@mail.well.com>


[The documentary aired again twice this morning on the History Channel, and 
it's a fair bet it'll show again later this week. --Declan


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41063,00.html

    History Looks at the NSA
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Jan. 9, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON -- As anyone who watched Enemy of the State knows, the
    National Security Agency is a rapacious beast with an appetite for
    data surpassed only by its disregard for Americans' privacy.

    Or is the opposite true, and the ex-No Such Agency staffed by ardent
    civil libertarians?

    To the NSA, of course, its devilish reputation is merely an
    unfortunate Hollywood fiction. Its director, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden,
    has taken every opportunity to say so, most recently on a History
    Channel documentary that aired for the first time Monday evening.

    "It's absolutely critical that (Americans) don't fear the power that
    we have," Hayden said on the show.

    He dismissed concerns about eavesdropping over-eagerness and all but
    said the NSA, far from being one of the most feared agencies, has
    become one of the most handicapped.

    One reason, long cited by agency officials: Encryption. The show's
    producers obligingly included stock footage of Saddam Hussein, saying
    that the dictator-for-life has been spotted chatting on a 900-channel
    encrypted cell phone.

    That's no surprise. The NSA, as Steven Levy documents in his new
    Crypto book (which the documentary overlooks), has spent the last 30
    years trying to suppress data-scrambling technology through export
    regulations, court battles, and even personal threats.

    Instead of exploring that controversial and timely subject that's tied
    to the ongoing debate over privacy online, "America's Most Secret
    Agency" instead spends the bulk of an hour on a history of
    cryptography starting in World War II. Most of the documentary could
    have aired two decades ago, and no critics are interviewed.

    One of the few surprises in the otherwise bland show is the NSA's new
    raison d'etre -- infowar.

    [...] 




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 08:41:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:41:06 -0500
Subject: Review of Steven Levy's "Crypto"
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114101.02473470@mail.well.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41071,00.html

    Crypto: Three Decades in Review
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    8:20 a.m. Jan. 9, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON --It took only a year or two for a pair of computer and
    math geeks to discover modern encryption technology in the 1970s. But
    it's taken three decades for the full story to be told.

    Transforming what is an unavoidably nerdy tale into the stuff of
    passion and politics is not a trivial business, but Steven Levy, the
    author of Crypto, proves himself more than up to the task.

    Crypto (Viking Penguin, $25.95), is Levy's compelling history of the
    personalities behind the development of data encryption, privacy and
    authentication: The mathematicians who thought up the idea, the
    businessmen who tried to sell it to an unsure public and the
    bureaucrats who tried to control it.

    Levy, a Newsweek writer and author of well-received technology
    histories such as Hackers and Insanely Great, begins his book in 1969
    with a profile of Whit Diffie, the tortured, quirky co-discoverer of
    public key cryptography. Other characters soon populate the stage: The
    MIT mathematicians eager to sign documents digitally; Jim Bidzos, the
    Greek-born dealmaker who led RSA Data Security from ruin to success;
    and Phil Zimmermann, the peace-activist-turned-programmer who gave the
    world Pretty Good Privacy.

    Until their contributions, the United States and other countries
    suffered from a virtual crypto-embargo, under which the technology to
    perform secure communications was carefully regulated as a munition
    and used primarily by soldiers and spies.

    But what about privacy and security? "On one side of the battle were
    relative nobodies: computer hackers, academics and wonky civil
    libertarians. On the other were some of the most powerful people in
    the world: spies, generals and even presidents. Guess who won," Levy
    writes.

    (Full disclosure: A few years ago, Levy asked this writer to help him
    research portions of the book. For whatever reason -- perhaps he found
    what he needed elsewhere -- discussions ceased.)

    Throughout Crypto's 356 pages, Levy takes the perspective of the
    outsiders -- and, in some cases, rebels -- who popularized the
    technology. Although he provides ample space for the U.S. government's
    views, he casts the struggle between crypto-buffs and their federal
    adversaries in terms familiar to foes of government control.

    [...]




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Jan  9 08:58:34 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:58:34 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A5AF9ED.53ADB91A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010109085520.007cdd30@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:45 AM 1/9/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> 
>> >>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding.
>> 
>> So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
>> her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.
>
>You've been listening to those old Max Miller records again, haven't
>you?

No, a british (Birmingham) cell biologist used it in casual conversation
in the early 1990s.  I was struck by the humor of it at the time.




 






  








From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  9 12:11:01 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 12:11:01 
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
Message-ID: <LAW-F36GWSa1aNEVJpj0000041c@hotmail.com>


Ray Dillinger writes:

>And in the US, "billiards" is a game played with cues and balls on a 
>felt-covered slate table.  In the UK, it's also a very large number.  
>Thankfully, so large that that definition rarely comes into conversation.  
>As I understand cross-pond conversions, it goes like this....
>
>USA          UK           Scientific
>Thousand     Thousand      1E3
>Million      Million       1E6
>Billion      Milliard      1E9
>Trillion     Billion       1E12
>Quadrillion  Billiard      1E15
>Quintillion  Trillion      1E18
>Sextillion   Trilliard     1E21
>Septillion   Quadrillion   1E24
>Octillion    Quadrilliard  1E27

See this table from Merriam-Webster:
    http://www.m-w.com/mw/table/number.htm


- GH

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




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Partner Manager
partners at getyourcasinonow.com
http://www.getyourcasinonow.com


From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan  9 12:33:11 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 12:33:11 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>


>On Monday 08 January 2001 16:09, John Young wrote:
>>   You are also commanded to bring with you the following
>>   document(s) or object(s):
>>
>>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>>   in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>>   stored or computer records, which:
>>
>>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>>
>>     2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
>>     or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>
>How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
>that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
>had not been comprimised?

I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
posted by Jim Bell.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ektarohra at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  8 23:22:58 2001
From: ektarohra at hotmail.com (ektarohra at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:52:58 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <OE24qoOH32s1OmUEyMQ00006674@hotmail.com>

Hi Id like to buy the book 
How To Meet & Win With Women

Please send me the name of the author and publisher - and would like to buy either the cd rom or the book
thanks
ekta
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From bf at mindspring.com  Tue Jan  9 11:26:42 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:26:42 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
Message-ID: <3A5B6559.F1C3C523@mindspring.com>


With all the hoopla over the release of the final version of the Linux
2.4.0 kernel last week, Microsoft Corp.'s delivery of an interim beta
version of its Windows 2000 successor, code-named Whistler, got lost in
the shuffle.

 But according to Whistler testers, Microsoft issued build 2410 of its
next version of Windows on Thursday. New in this build are many
user-interface tweaks, as well as the incorporation of new anti-piracy
code.

...
No more casual copying?
The most potentially controversial addition to Whistler 2410, however,
is anti-piracy code that Microsoft is calling "Microsoft Product
Activation for Windows," (WPA) according to testers. The technology is
similar to the Office Activation Wizard that's part of Office 2000.

WPA will tie a Windows product key to one specific PC in order to reduce
casual copying. In order to "activate" it, a customer will send data
about the installation, such as product ID number and hardware
identifier, to a Microsoft-run license clearinghouse. The clearinghouse
won't allow the use of the customer's product key on a PC different from
the one originally activated.

 Microsoft plans to deliver WPA in all 32-bit versions of Whistler
except those sold to volume-licensing customers and the so-called
"Royalty OEM initial install images" provided to PC makers, said sources
close to the company. Microsoft is expected to add similar anti-piracy
technology to Office 10 and Visual Studio .Net, sources said.

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2672131,00.html





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan  9 14:44:57 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:44:57 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6813e8d8dd4@[207.111.241.161]>


At 12:33 PM -0800 1/9/01, Bill Stewart wrote:
>  >On Monday 08 January 2001 16:09, John Young wrote:
>  >>   You are also commanded to bring with you the following
>>>    document(s) or object(s):
>>>
>>>    Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>>>    disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>>>    in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>>>    stored or computer records, which:
>>>
>  >>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>  >>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>>>
>>>      2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
>>>      or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>>
>>How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
>>that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
>>had not been comprimised?
>
>I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
>in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
>posted by Jim Bell.

ven a "From: Jim Bell" doesn't prove anything. Besides knowing this 
from first principles (about spoofing, signatures, etc.), we have 
seen this demonstrated on this very list. Recall that various posters 
were claiming to be "Toto" during the unfolding of that situation.

Recall that Detweiler (presumably) used to issue posts with my name 
attached, with Nick Szabo's name attached, with Eric Hughes' name 
attached, etc.

These points were never tested in the court cases of Bell or Parker.

John Young could quite easily show up in Seattle with _none_ of the 
items the subpoena calls for. If questioned, he could say he had no 
means of knowing if the articles, posts, etc. were in fact from Bell 
or were generated by Infowar cointelpro operatives in law enforcement 
or even by Detweiler or May or whomever.

Also, even if he chooses to comply and grep through his mail archives 
for "any and all documents...mention...discuss....Jim Bell," this 
would presumably turn up many hundreds of such documents. And the 
provenance will be unknown (an ordinary mail spool, or Eudora folder, 
or Outlook Express whatever, etc., being editable and alterable).

John Young (or anyone else) could have edited his mail spool to put 
words into "Bell"'s alleged mail.

I expect this upcoming trial will not be the case which hinges on 
these kinds of issues, but some court will someday have to contend 
with this utter malleability of received mail files. Unlike paper 
letters which can be forensically analyzed, e-mail is nearly 
meaningless.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jan  9 11:58:50 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:58:50 -0500
Subject: DCSB: Ted Byfield; ICANN, Intellectual Property, and Digital
 Commerce
Message-ID: <mailman.351.1576007488.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Note that the Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets
and ties... --RAH]


          The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                         Presents


                        Ted Byfield,
                     Moderator, Nettime
                   (among other things...)

               ICANN, Intellectual Property,
                    and Digital Commerce

                 Tuesday, February 6th, 2000
                         12 - 2 PM
              The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                One Federal Street, Boston, MA




Through an erratic process intended to "lessen the burdens of
government," the Clinton administration transferred governance of the
Internet's essential functions to the Internet Corporation for
Assigned Names and Numbers. In trying to cement its status, ICANN has
sought to transform the net's cooperative structures into a
hierarchical contractual regime geared toward expanding and enforcing
intellectual property claims. The result of ICANN's deviation from
its technical coordination mandate into a captured policy-making
proxy for an absent-minded US government is a centralized namespace
that privileges the demands of late-adopters over innovative
expansions of DNS. This talk will provide a survey of ICANN's
activities to date and how they may advance alternative models and
extensions of DNS as a decentralized, cooperative system that is more
secure and less subject to political whim.


After working for over a decade as decade as an editor focusing on
intellectual and cultural history, Ted Byfield joined the faculty of
Parsons School of Design in New York City, where he teaches about the
social and political aspects of design. In addition to writing and
lecturing about areas where the technical and cultural collide, he is
a member of the rump Boston Working Group, co-moderates the Nettime
mailing list, and serves as an boardmember and advisor for various
New York-area cultural organizations.



This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held
on Tuesday, February 6th, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown
Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The
price for lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental,
A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club
has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning
no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons
in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the
Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code.


We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we
*really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of
Boston", by Saturday, January 3rd, or you won't be on the list for
lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston
will have to be sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The
Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your
e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements
(we've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for
instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can
work something out.


Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

March 6     TBA
April 3     Scott Moskowitz  Watermarking and Bluespike


As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers.
If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a
principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation
to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee,
care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah at shipwright.com>.

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-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at reservoir.com
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at reservoir.com

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From pxiao at Liberate.com  Tue Jan  9 15:42:45 2001
From: pxiao at Liberate.com (Xiao, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:45 -0800 
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
Message-ID: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>


Hi,

I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
(I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

Thanks in advance!!

Peter




From izaac at setec.org  Tue Jan  9 12:42:46 2001
From: izaac at setec.org (Izaac)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:46 -0500
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from Ray Dillinger on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 08:04:18AM -0800
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB26@exna07.securitydynamics.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010109154246.A3015@setec.org>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 08:04:18AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Actually, not *entirely* useless.  Usually right after jim 
> talks about an article and posts a link that doesn't point 
> at it, someone else will post a correct link.  If Jim 
> just shut up, some of these stories probably would escape 
> our notice.  In the course of correcting his errors, people 
> do provide useful information.

Yeah in a: "Gee, if I didn't sideswipe that truck and crash into this
utility pole, I never would have noticed that quarter on the ground!"
sort of way.

-- 
___ ___  .   .  ___
 \    /  |\  |\ \
 _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  9 14:37:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:37:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [alg] gpg with gnome clients (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109163754.446G-101000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:27:26 -0600
From: geoffrey <monkey at blackhat.net>
Reply-To: alg at austinlug.org
To: alg at austinlug.org
Subject: [alg] gpg with gnome clients

Does anyone know of a good gnome email client ( ala balsa ) which has
strong support for gpg ( as does mutt)? I have some people from the
spoonfed MS world who have discovered the need/use for email crypto, and
they are having a horrible time getting pgp to work completely correctly
with anything: eudora/OE, etc. So, I felt that this might be the perfect
opportunity to wean them from the Redmond teat by showing them how that
job, plus all others they usually perform can be handily done in Linux.
Since they are from the Windows world I thought that I would soften the
transition by using gnome. I can't stand KDE; so, don't suggest kmail.

geoffrey
-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Santa Claus,
the Tooth Fairy,
Windows 2000 ...
Some things you just outgrow.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Key fingerprint ===> B83C C6E1 68F8 CEC9 8636  86B5 1F0E 9D33 E749 1BA6
Public key available upon request.
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From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Jan  9 16:55:41 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:55:41 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:33:11PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:33:11PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
> in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
> posted by Jim Bell.

Remember that the subpoena delivered to JYA is for a grand jury
appearance - not trial testimony (yet). Grand juries are supposed to
protect the accused (in that they're supposed to be an early review
of prosecution evidence) but have been twisted into investigatory 
tools where the production of secret testimony in an unstructured
environment (traditional rules like the rule against hearsay evidence
don't apply to grand jury proceedings) turn out to be very valuable
to the persec, er, prosecution. 

If witness testimony suggests that other evidence of crimes may be
available - say, maybe Witness X describes an email received from 
Person A, or produces a copy of that email - then investigators can
go forth and seek corroborative evidence to support (or replace)
Witness X's testimony at trial, perhaps with search warrants if they
believe the holders of that evidence are not inclined to cooperate
with subpoenas.

And, as Bill alludes above, the rule against hearsay evidence does 
not apply to statements purportedly made by the opposing party
(e.g., the defendant, in a criminal case), so messages allegedly from
Jim Bell are likely to be admitted into evidence - Jim and/or his
attorney will have an opportunity to argue that they should not be
considered reliable evidence, or that if reliable they do not
constitute criminal acts or elements of crime(s) charged. The mere
possibility that evidence might be fabricated or altered will not
keep it out of court, but only provide the basis for an argument
that it should not be trusted. The jury or judge is free to accept
or ignore that argument as their common sense or politics dictate.

The "you can't trust email headers because they might be forged"
argument didn't go far in CJ's trial, and they're not likely to
fare much better elsewhere. The criminal trial system is perfectly 
comfortable with evidence whose theoretical (or actual) perfection
and purity are less than ideal.

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  9 15:11:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:11:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DCSB: Ted Byfield; ICANN, Intellectual Property, and Digital  Commerce (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109171129.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Tue Jan  9 17:18:38 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
Message-ID: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>

As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S.,
Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
By MICHAEL ALLEN 
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


HAMILTON, Bermuda -- Operating out of a hurricane-proof command center in 
a former U.S. military base, Paven Bratch is a tax examiner's nightmare.

Although his Internet company, music and video merchant Playcentric.com 
(www.playcentric.com1), has just 10 employees, didn't go live until September 
and has yet to turn a profit, it has the structure of a major multinational. 
Its computer servers are located here, its operating unit is in Barbados,
 and it has a distribution deal with a big record-store chain in Toronto. 
The 36-year-old Mr. Bratch figures this setup will save him so much on corporate 
income taxes and other expenses that he'll be able to undercut Amazon.com 
Inc.'s prices by more than 45% and still make a bundle.

"One thing that always amazes me is, why would anyone who's planning on 
generating a profit locate themselves in a full-tax jurisdiction?" he says.

'First Generation'

Plenty of dot-coms are asking themselves the same question these days. Undaunted 
by their industry's growing ranks of flameouts and hoping to emerge as one 
of the profitable few, dozens of them are popping up in tax havens around 
the world.

In Bermuda, they range from tiny publisher ISI Publications Ltd., which 
sells hard-to-find business books under the domain name Booksonbiz.com (www.booksonbiz.com2),
 to E*Trade Group Inc., the big online stockbroker, which is locating its 
international trading operations here. Further south, on the Caribbean island 
of Antigua, an American trader has set up Indextrade.com (www.indextrade.com3) 
to allow small investors to bet on swings in market indexes, while in Cyprus,
 a former British jazz singer is doing a brisk business by listing vessels 
such as a Soviet-era submarine on Ships-for-sale.com (www.ships-for-sale.com4).

"These merchants are the first generation who can really domicile anywhere,
" says Andrea Wilson, chief executive of Bermuda-based First Atlantic Commerce 
Ltd. (www.firstatlanticcommerce.com5), which provides credit-card payment 
systems for e-businesses. "They can be a virtual corporation if they choose."

The trend started with Internet gambling companies, which fled to the Caribbean 
to avoid the long arm of U.S. law. But now, thanks to an explosion of new 
telecommunications links to places such as Bermuda and Britain's Channel 
Islands -- and an ambitious push by promoters in such countries as Panama 
to set up facilities capable of hosting hundreds or thousands of Web sites 
each -- more-legitimate Internet companies are starting to make the leap 
offshore.

A Wealth of Ambiguity

There are serious questions about whether some of the structures would pass 
muster with the Internal Revenue Service and its foreign counterparts. But 
many accountants figure there's enough ambiguity in the industrial world's 
offshore tax codes that e-commerce companies could, at least theoretically,
 rack up tax-free profits for years before the authorities sort things out.

The issues are often murkier than for a standard offshore tax shelter, because 
they involve technological innovations that the U.S. Treasury couldn't have 
anticipated when it began laying the ground rules for offshore taxation 
in the 1960s. For instance, nobody's entirely sure how to tax the earnings 
of a programmer who sells his software by allowing buyers to download it 
from a Web site hosted on a computer server in a zero-tax jurisdiction.

Some tax attorneys take the position that the sale takes place where the 
server is located, and that the business owes no corporate or sales tax 
in the buyer's home country. "It would be no different than you or I getting 
on a plane, flying to the Bahamas, and buying a T-shirt in the hotel," says 
Lazaro Mur, a Miami tax attorney.

New telecommunications options have brought Bermuda and much of the Caribbean 
even closer than a plane ride away. Cable & Wireless PLC's phone monopoly 
among former British colonies in the region is breaking up, and C&W's new 
competitors are starting to lace the seabed with modern fiber-optic lines,
 breaking down old technological barriers to working offshore.

At the same time, so-called server farms -- warehouses built to accommodate 
row upon row of computer servers -- are sprouting up to accommodate high-
tech newcomers. At Fort Clayton, a former U.S. military base in Panama, 
local entrepreneurs plan to open a 50,000-square-foot "high-tech hotel" 
later this month they say will be capable of hosting as many as 1.2 million 
Web sites.

HavenCo, a self-proclaimed "data haven," announced plans last year to host 
Web sites from an antiaircraft platform abandoned by the British after World 
War II. The North Sea platform has a colorful history: In 1966, a retired 
British army major seized control of it and has operated it for years as 
the sovereign "Principality of Sealand."

Ryan Lackey, HavenCo's chief technical officer, says the company, which 
spent the summer upgrading electrical power and air conditioning on Sealand,
 has more than 30 servers up and running, connected to the mainland by satellite 
and wireless service, and hopes to expand to as many as 5,000.

He says the company has fielded "several thousand" sales inquiries. "The 
big thing people really want is e-mail servers, because in the past people 
have been getting their e-mail servers subpoenaed," he says. He adds that 
HavenCo would only comply with subpoenas issued by the Court of Sealand. 
"But there's no Court of Sealand, so it's very unlikely."

Tax savings are the big selling point for many of the installations. "Offshore 
+ Ecommerce=Tax Free Heaven," screams a banner ad for Bahamas.net, which 
offers server facilities in the Bahamas for as low as $2,200 a month.

Bermuda, which has a rich history of helping foreigners shave taxes, also 
is doing its best to encourage the migration offshore. Its two biggest banks,
 Bank of Bermuda Ltd. and Bank of N.T. Butterfield & Son Ltd., have launched 
major e-commerce initiatives, establishing systems to allow online merchants 
to bill customers in several major currencies. A common refrain among business 
leaders on this tiny fishhook-shaped island is that Bill Gates would be 
a much-richer man today if he had originally established Microsoft here.

The pitch helped reel in Robert Edwards, an editorial cartoonist who lives 
in Canterbury, England. Not long ago he went looking for help in setting 
up a Web site to sell works by him and about 30 other artists from around 
the world. Tipped off to Bermuda by a visiting delegation of businesspeople,
 he registered his company online through Appleby, Spurling & Kempe, a local 
law firm here, and was quickly directed to Web designers, a hosting site 
and a credit-card intermediary, First Atlantic.

Late last year, at a total cost of less than $200,000, his Drawnandquartered.com 
(www.drawnandquartered.com6) went live, offering 4,000 artworks, which can 
be downloaded online with a credit card, for $200 and up. His company doesn't 
pay any income or sales taxes, and he only has to pay personal-income tax 
on the salary he draws. "I'm a perfect example of how it can be done," he 
says.

Playcentric's Mr. Bratch, a former Procter & Gamble Co. manager, says he 
relied on advice from an international tax attorney in structuring the online 
retailer, which will market its compact disks, videos and DVDs partly through 
packaged-goods makers who want to reward loyal customers. Mr. Bratch, a 
Canadian citizen, put his operating unit in Barbados, which, unlike Bermuda,
 has a tax treaty with Canada, in order to take advantage of the Caribbean 
nation's corporate income-tax rate of just 2%.

He says he located his computer operations in Bermuda because of its extensive 
banking and telecommunications infrastructure. Its attractions include a 
state-of-the-art server facility built in an old U.S. naval base by 360networks 
Inc.'s TeleBermuda International unit, which laid an undersea fiber-optic 
cable to the U.S. in 1997.

Tax considerations also helped lure Todd Middagh, chief executive of Originals 
Online Ltd., to Bermuda. His brainchild: a site that will allow importers,
 exporters and shipping companies to swap legally binding trade documents 
online, instead of wasting days with couriers. "It's a digital product, 
global in nature, 24-hours-a-day world-wide," says Mr. Middagh, who has 
already attracted the interest of several major grain companies, including 
Archer Daniels Midland Co.

"We're going to be in almost every jurisdiction over time," he says. Meanwhile,
 Mr. Middagh, a native of Canada, will be presiding over the company from 
his house here, which overlooks the Atlantic Ocean.

Scott Rubman, a Long Island, N.Y., real-estate attorney whose family has 
long been in the fur trade, is putting together Furs.com (www.furs.com7),
 a Bermuda-based site that plans to match mink farmers in, say, Norway, 
with fur-coat manufacturers in North America and China. As an American, 
Mr. Rubman may face a bigger hurdle in shielding any offshore profits from 
taxation. Unlike many other countries, the U.S. taxes its citizens on their 
income world-wide.

"If you move offshore strictly to evade taxes, that's something the U.S. 
will always look at," says Mr. Rubman, who is getting plenty of advice from 
U.S. tax experts. "When you have a legitimate business purpose to transact 
business offshore, I'd think the U.S. would be supportive of that."

And if the U.S. isn't supportive? Cryptographer Vince Cate thinks he has 
that covered. In 1998, the onetime Carnegie-Mellon University Ph.D candidate 
walked into the U.S. Embassy in Barbados and renounced his American citizenship,
 declaring that he was henceforth a citizen of Mozambique, thanks to a document 
he purchased for $5,000 over the Internet.

Then, he went back to the Caribbean island of Anguilla, where he had developed 
a reputation as a computer-encryption visionary. Among his many ventures,
 he has taken over the operations of an online marketer of driver's-license 
information that had run afoul of a new privacy law in Texas. Mr. Cate plans 
to build the business without paying a cent of taxes.

"Because I'm not a U.S. citizen, I'm not in the United States, and Anguilla 
has no taxes, I don't believe I have any problem," he says.

Write to Michael Allen at mike.allen at wsj.com8


From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan  9 14:23:26 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:23:26 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <3A5B6559.F1C3C523@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

> But according to Whistler testers, Microsoft issued build 2410 of its
>next version of Windows on Thursday. New in this build are many
>user-interface tweaks, as well as the incorporation of new anti-piracy
>code.

>...
>No more casual copying?
>The most potentially controversial addition to Whistler 2410, however,
>is anti-piracy code that Microsoft is calling "Microsoft Product
>Activation for Windows," 


Until now it has been easy for people to be hypocritical about 
software piracy - to claim they're not doing it and don't support 
it when in fact a fair number of their IT procedures would not be 
possible if it were not done, at least in some small and usually 
transient ways. Did anybody else temporarily create a "pirate" 
installation of Windows NT 3.51 when they discovered that the 
installer for NT 4.0 beta refused to delete the primary partition 
and they needed to repartition their hard drives? It lasted twenty 
minutes, but since for that twenty minutes it was on more than just 
the original machine, it was a violation of EULA.

But if Microsoft and its ilk do in fact successfully create systems 
that prevent "piracy", it won't be possible to be a hypocrite about 
it any more.  And with commercial software flatly refusing some 
kinds of use, perhaps a fair number of people who now *think* they 
are not doing any piracy will have to face some harsh facts. 

Perhaps they will eventually realize that the way to avoid piracy 
without sacrificing usability is to use open-source free software. 
We can hope so anyway. 

In that scenario, this anti-piracy stuff could be one of the nails 
in Microsoft's coffin. 

				Bear





From ericm at lne.com  Tue Jan  9 17:38:01 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:38:01 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@netbox.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 04:55:41PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com> <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20010109173801.E31672@slack.lne.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 04:55:41PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

> ... messages allegedly from
> Jim Bell are likely to be admitted into evidence - Jim and/or his
> attorney will have an opportunity to argue that they should not be
> considered reliable evidence, or that if reliable they do not
> constitute criminal acts or elements of crime(s) charged. The mere
> possibility that evidence might be fabricated or altered will not
> keep it out of court, but only provide the basis for an argument
> that it should not be trusted. The jury or judge is free to accept
> or ignore that argument as their common sense or politics dictate.


I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that, unless there is a very compelling
argument from expert witness which "proves" to the judge or jury that
the emails in a particular case are forged, emails would be accepted in
pretty much any (US) court.  I beleive that's how written evidence is
treated now, even though handwriting and signatures can be forged.  If a
handwriting expert is brought in and "proves" that there's a forgery, the
evidence is thrown out or the judge or jury disregard it as appropriate.

In this regard, security experts will be the handwriting experts of
the future.

(Greg, have there been any cases where email evidence has been shown
in a court to be forged?  Has this even been attempted, other than
Bell's case?)


-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Tue Jan  9 14:58:40 2001
From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:58:40 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <p05010411b6814701f590@[141.142.22.21]>


At 5:23 PM -0500 1/9/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>But if Microsoft and its ilk do in fact successfully create systems
>that prevent "piracy", it won't be possible to be a hypocrite about
>it any more.  And with commercial software flatly refusing some
>kinds of use, perhaps a fair number of people who now *think* they
>are not doing any piracy will have to face some harsh facts.

Or you can realize that you were exercising "fair use" and the software
companies are now going to use technical means to prevent you from
exercising your right on copyrighted works.

It will only me a matter of time before some hacker provides the necessary
tools to exercise our "fair use" right again.

-- 


Matt Elliott			High Performance Data Management Team
217-265-0257			<mailto:melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu>





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  9 16:15:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:15:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Update on NIST crypto standards (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109181456.446W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:18:15 -0500
From: Steve Bellovin <smb at research.att.com>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: Update on NIST crypto standards (fwd)

Forwarded with permission.  There is also going to be an announcement 
on modes of operation; http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/tkmodes.html 
should have the information within the next month or thereabouts.


------- Forwarded Message



From jrichard at cubicle.net  Tue Jan  9 18:20:36 2001
From: jrichard at cubicle.net (Josh Richards)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:20:36 -0800
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>; from pxiao@Liberate.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <20010109182036.B12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>

* Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
> 
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?  
It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't 
just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting
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From jrichard at cubicle.net  Tue Jan  9 18:34:50 2001
From: jrichard at cubicle.net (Josh Richards)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:34:50 -0800
Subject: SS7 over the Net (was Re: History Channel television show on NSA)
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDMECGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:45:25AM -0500
References: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com> <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDMECGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <20010109183450.C12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>

* Phillip Zakas <pzakas at toucancapital.com> [20010108 21:51]:
[..]
> BTW, has anyone heard of recent moves to push SS7 phone messaging traffic
> over the internet in a bid to boost scalability and LNP resolution speeds?

There are already carriers doing SS7 over IP via gateways.  Over the public
Internet is not a stretch from a technical standpoint but, in practice, 
I'd find it hard to believe too many LECs or IXCs going this route.  Private
IP networks, yes already in production even.  The public IP network, nobody 
serious is doing it.  Wait, well, if you just mean VoIP there are VoIP 
companies that are attempting things like this by partnering with regional 
and local ISPs to place voice gateways.  If you're talking governmental 
moves, there are easier ways.  The SS7 network isn't exactly encrypted.. 

> Three effects: it'll work better than the current SS7 network alone;
> improved eavesdropping on conversations which touch land lines (fyi only
> phone-to-phone cell phone comms like nextel's two-way-radio feature don't
> use land lines I believe); decreased need to try to decipher the message
> while it's in the air (it's harder to intercept over the air transmissions).

How does this improve eavesdropping?  SS7 is only signaling.  There is no
voice payload on the SS7 network.  SS7 simply passes signaling information
around.  Perhaps the knowledge of calling and called party since those
digits are passed via SS7 but the converstation is entirely distinct.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting
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From pxiao at Liberate.com  Tue Jan  9 19:12:43 2001
From: pxiao at Liberate.com (Xiao, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:12:43 -0800 
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
Message-ID: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F7@usscmail1.liberate.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Richards [mailto:jrichard at cubicle.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:21 PM
To: coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto implementation for small footprint devices


* Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
> 
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?  
It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't 
just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.

The device is a DCT2000 set-top box with very limited footprint. Since the
box needs to run a lot of other applications, 50K is the space that we would
like to spend on the security purpose. The platform supports C interface.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan  9 18:07:24 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:07:24 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDEEDACAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


what kind of platform? are you counting on an internal processor, or are you
just storing a key to be acted on via a second device?  need more info.
pz

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Xiao, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:43 PM
To: 'coderpunks at toad.com'; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices



Hi,

I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
(I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

Thanks in advance!!

Peter





From jrichard at cubicle.net  Tue Jan  9 18:17:04 2001
From: jrichard at cubicle.net (Josh Richards)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:17:04 -0500
Subject: circus of fools (Re: cell phone anonymity)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101082108550.11286-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:32:32AM -0500
References: <a05010408b67fb7fada6a@[207.111.241.161]> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101082108550.11286-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010109181543.A12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>

* Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> [20010108 21:40]:
[..]
> ...  This monumental stupidity was a feature 
> of the circus of fools around me for many years, and is still 
> where my mind goes by reflex action whenever I hear about electricity 
> supply difficulties, power costs and escalating home insurance prices -- 
> however irrelevant it may be to the situation in California.  

Don't worry -- electricity supply difficulties are a problem here in 
sunny-but-raining-today California too.   In fact, it's a *big* PITA at the
moment here.  Super big.

> California, it seems, has its own set of completely different acts 
> in the circus of fools, and I'm still learning them....

They are not completely different.  Sure, there are some unique ones but 
there is plenty of overlap. :)  

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting
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From justinel at ms14.hinet.net  Tue Jan  9 05:47:06 2001
From: justinel at ms14.hinet.net (Sencera)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:47:06 +0800
Subject: offer sensor elements for .....
Message-ID: <200101091344.FAA13131@toad.com>


Dear sir,

We are the Manufacture of follow sensor elements:
- Own patent's shock sensor element for car alarm and lock.
- Own patent's tilt switch and sensor element. (instead of Mercury type)
- Shock detector model 201C type, for car alarm with VR sensitive adjust
- Shock detector model VB type, for security use such as window shock
 detecting.
- Ultrasonic transducer 40KHz for car security use.
- High power ultrasonic transducer from 28KHz to 1.0MHz for ultrasonic
  machine use.
-Air pollution sensor element
-Alcohol sensor element 
-Atmospheric pressure sensor element  
-Carbonate monoxide sensor element  
-LPG and Nature Gas sensor element  
-Capacitive humidity sensor element  
-Smoke sensor element  
-Temperature sensor element 
 measurement range from -40 C to +300 C, resolution:1%, 3%, 5%

Products design, OEM are available.

Any interesting, please contact
Sencera Co., Ltd.
Mr. Justine Lee
http://welcome.to/sencera
justinel at ms14.hinet.net
Fax:886-2-27041279
Tel:886-2-27046595
Thanks




From no1club at tds.net  Tue Jan  9 18:49:34 2001
From: no1club at tds.net (Rob)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 21:49:34 -0500
Subject: Work from Home! Minimum Income Guarantee!
Message-ID: <200101100253.UAA00998@serak.svc.tds.net>


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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan  9 19:25:27 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:25:27 -0500
Subject: SS7 over the Net (was Re: History Channel television show on NSA)
In-Reply-To: <20010109183450.C12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDOEDDCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Using SS7 one can redefine routes, gather number translation info via
Signalling Control Points (SCPs), etc. Rather than repeat boring details,
check out:

http://support.dialogic.com/ss7/SS7tutorial/tutorial.html

The link is a brief tutorial on SS7; it'll make possibilities more obvious.
What's the danger of SS7 over IP?  Lack of security features at gateways and
at the protocol level.
pz

>>>
How does this improve eavesdropping?  SS7 is only signaling.  There is no
voice payload on the SS7 network.  SS7 simply passes signaling information
around.  Perhaps the knowledge of calling and called party since those
digits are passed via SS7 but the converstation is entirely distinct.

-jr

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Josh Richards
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 9:35 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: SS7 over the Net (was Re: History Channel television show on
NSA)


* Phillip Zakas <pzakas at toucancapital.com> [20010108 21:51]:
[..]
> BTW, has anyone heard of recent moves to push SS7 phone messaging traffic
> over the internet in a bid to boost scalability and LNP resolution speeds?

There are already carriers doing SS7 over IP via gateways.  Over the public
Internet is not a stretch from a technical standpoint but, in practice,
I'd find it hard to believe too many LECs or IXCs going this route.  Private
IP networks, yes already in production even.  The public IP network, nobody
serious is doing it.  Wait, well, if you just mean VoIP there are VoIP
companies that are attempting things like this by partnering with regional
and local ISPs to place voice gateways.  If you're talking governmental
moves, there are easier ways.  The SS7 network isn't exactly encrypted..

> Three effects: it'll work better than the current SS7 network alone;
> improved eavesdropping on conversations which touch land lines (fyi only
> phone-to-phone cell phone comms like nextel's two-way-radio feature don't
> use land lines I believe); decreased need to try to decipher the message
> while it's in the air (it's harder to intercept over the air
transmissions).

How does this improve eavesdropping?  SS7 is only signaling.  There is no
voice payload on the SS7 network.  SS7 simply passes signaling information
around.  Perhaps the knowledge of calling and called party since those
digits are passed via SS7 but the converstation is entirely distinct.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Jan  9 22:31:46 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:31:46 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <20010109173801.E31672@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 05:38:01PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com> <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010109173801.E31672@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20010109223145.E6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 05:38:01PM -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that, unless there is a very compelling
> argument from expert witness which "proves" to the judge or jury that
> the emails in a particular case are forged, emails would be accepted in
> pretty much any (US) court.  I beleive that's how written evidence is
> treated now, even though handwriting and signatures can be forged.  If a
> handwriting expert is brought in and "proves" that there's a forgery, the
> evidence is thrown out or the judge or jury disregard it as appropriate.

I think this is right on. It's important to remember that evidence
(especially scientific or technical evidence) is subject to a two-step
vetting process - there's initial review by the judge, who must be
convinced that the evidence is potentially reliable and relevant; and
then the judge or jury must decide that they want to believe the 
evidence after it's been admitted. There's plenty of evidence which is
both admissible (and admitted) yet ignored by juries. 

> (Greg, have there been any cases where email evidence has been shown
> in a court to be forged?  Has this even been attempted, other than
> Bell's case?)

I don't have an appellate case or a cite at hand immediately - I do know
that there was a case here in Silicon Valley where an ex-employee and
ex-girlfriend of Larry Ellison (CEO of Oracle) falsified an email which
purported to prove that she was the victim of sexual harassment at
Oracle - she lost her lawsuit against Oracle and was subsequently
convicted of perjury. (See 4 J. Tech Law & Policy 1 at para 31;
<http://journal.law.ufl.edu/~techlaw/4/Dixon.html> or a Seattle 
Times article at
<http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/html98/love_092798.html>).

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan  9 19:53:30 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:53:30 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F7@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDKEDECAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


I know RSA B-Safe stuff is made to fit onto cell phones and pagers.  They
also are the public key vendor for DOCSIS cable boxes.  Maybe they can help
you.  www.rsa.com

pz


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Xiao, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:13 PM
To: 'Josh Richards'; coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: RE: crypto implementation for small footprint devices





-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Richards [mailto:jrichard at cubicle.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:21 PM
To: coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto implementation for small footprint devices


* Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
>
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?
It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't
just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.

The device is a DCT2000 set-top box with very limited footprint. Since the
box needs to run a lot of other applications, 50K is the space that we would
like to spend on the security purpose. The platform supports C interface.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting





From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan  9 23:15:55 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:15:55 -0800
Subject: Review of History Channel's NSA documentary
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114029.02473470@mail.well.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114029.02473470@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040ab681bc505bc4@[10.1.1.42]>


Declan:
>    "It's absolutely critical that (Americans) don't fear the power that
>    we have," Hayden said on the show.

	Of course it's critical. If "we" don't fear it, we won't do 
anything to reign it in.

	If we do fear it, then they have to step carefully. From 
Hayden's perspective, it is critical that we don't fear it.

	I believe that it is critical that we do.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan  9 23:20:05 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:20:05 -0800
Subject: [alg] gpg with gnome clients (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109163754.446G-101000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109163754.446G-101000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040bb681bd8ba609@[10.1.1.42]>


>Attachment converted: 9main:CDR- [alg] gpg with gnome clien 
>(MiME/CSOm) (00039B4A)

	The camel's back has just broken.


-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 22:29:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:29:54 -0500
Subject: Book Review: The secrets of cryptography
In-Reply-To: <812c65895e71032c648540dd03e36718@mixmaster.shinn.net>; from anmetet@mixmaster.shinn.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:22:26AM -0500
References: <812c65895e71032c648540dd03e36718@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <20010110015723.B19147@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:22:26AM -0500, An Metet wrote:
> by Joel Enos
> January 08, 2001
> Ê
> At last, a book about secret codes that isn't boring or too technical! 

And a book review that isn't accurate...


> In the end, you get a history lesson and a new set of questions to
ponder (such as, where is this all going to go?) filtered through the
people at the core of the controversy. Levy interviewed basically all
the privacy luminaries, from Fischer and Diffie to Phil Zimmerman
(head of Pretty Good Privacy). From them, he's managed to create what


With all due respect to Whit's very gracious and wonderful wife, I'm
not sure I'd call her a privacy luminary. Nor would I say Phil is head
of PGP.


> And his portrayal of Zimmerman as the freeware rebel flying around
uploading PGP to the Net via a laptop, acoustic coupler and various
pay phones is priceless.

This is not what Levy wrote.

-Declan





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan  9 22:43:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:43:28 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3A5B6559.F1C3C523@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010109214716.00b17af0@idiom.com>


>>No more casual copying?
>>The most potentially controversial addition to Whistler 2410, however,
>>is anti-piracy code that Microsoft is calling "Microsoft Product
>>Activation for Windows," 

Copy protection is annoying when you have only one machine.
It's much more annoying in the commercially interesting case,
which is when you have many machines and are
copying things legitimately.

I've got a lab with half a dozen year-old El Cheapo PCs
and half a dozen Genuine Antique AT&T Pentium 90s.
Then there's the stack of old-beater laptops,
which are very nice machines to put in a rack of routers
when you just want a Ping/FTP/Web target.

The El Cheapo PCs each came with a licensed Win98;
I've got the disks in a stack, and keeping track of which 
CD goes with which PC would be a serious annoyance.
It's actually worse, because the PCs are pieces of junk
that need to be have major chunks of Windows reloaded
every once in a while, though at least Win98 has less of the
"you have moved your mouse, please put in the Windows CD and reboot"
that Win95 had.  It's annoying enough to keep track of
which Win98 serial numbers go with which CDROMs -
writing the number on the CDROM helps, but you can't
read it when it's in the drive :-)

The P90s were covered by a site license; I never had
individual media for them (and most of them don't have CD players,
which makes the "Please put the Win95 CD in the drive" more annoying.)
The copy of Win95 I've got on CDROM was from somewhere else.
Many of them are happily running Linux now.  
N of them hang out on a DSL connection for doing firewall testing,
and they're named "Kenny" because they're targets for kiddies,
and it's nice not to mess with copy protection when I
reload the OS.

Some of the laptops still have their CDROMs; some don't,
and the ones that do often have funky drivers.
That's why they're still running Windows....
at least they don't crash very often, though you still
have to reboot them if you change static IP addresses.

And I paid cash money to upgrade the home machine to 
Win98 Second Edition specifically to get 
Internet Connection Service, which didn't work as promised
and trashed the DLLs used by several other commercial products
in ways that uninstalling didn't fix.
Will I feel guilty if I install WinME on two or three boxes?
(Skeptical, yes, but guilty?  No.)



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 22:47:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:47:34 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6813e8d8dd4@[207.111.241.161]>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 02:44:57PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com> <a05010400b6813e8d8dd4@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <20010110014734.A19147@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 02:44:57PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> I expect this upcoming trial will not be the case which hinges on 
> these kinds of issues, but some court will someday have to contend 
> with this utter malleability of received mail files. Unlike paper 
> letters which can be forensically analyzed, e-mail is nearly 
> meaningless.

Yes and no. Courts have figured out long ago how to deal with
malleable computer files, of which email is a special case. And notes
allegedly taken during a telephone call or meeting (which were
important during the MS antitrust trial) are equally malleable.

What the prosecution here is interested in is chain of custody, did
you receive this message, can you verify that Exhibit A is what you
received from someone at somewhere.com, etc. with perjury as a
deterrent. Then they can use phone records to show a defendant was
online then via a dialup connection...

It strikes me that this is a sort of link padding: If you're online
all the time, those phone records will be virtually useless.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 23:00:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:00:23 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDKEDECAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 10:53:30PM -0500
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F7@usscmail1.liberate.com> <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDKEDECAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <20010110020023.C19147@cluebot.com>

It also might be worth checking out the elliptic curve apps that run
on Palm OS. --Declan


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 10:53:30PM -0500, Phillip Zakas wrote:
> 
> I know RSA B-Safe stuff is made to fit onto cell phones and pagers.  They
> also are the public key vendor for DOCSIS cable boxes.  Maybe they can help
> you.  www.rsa.com
> 
> pz
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Xiao, Peter
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:13 PM
> To: 'Josh Richards'; coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: RE: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Richards [mailto:jrichard at cubicle.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:21 PM
> To: coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Re: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
> 
> 
> * Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
> >
> > I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> > footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> > protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> > within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> > alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> > about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> > smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> > (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> > the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> > anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> 
> How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
> a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
> of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?
> It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't
> just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
> How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.
> 
> The device is a DCT2000 set-top box with very limited footprint. Since the
> box needs to run a lot of other applications, 50K is the space that we would
> like to spend on the security purpose. The platform supports C interface.
> 
> -jr
> 
> ----
> Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
> <jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
> Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
> IP Network Engineering and Consulting
> 
> 




From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Jan  9 23:19:04 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:19:04 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010109214716.00b17af0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101092320070.14572-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> The El Cheapo PCs each came with a licensed Win98;
> I've got the disks in a stack, and keeping track of which 
> CD goes with which PC would be a serious annoyance.
> It's actually worse, because the PCs are pieces of junk
> that need to be have major chunks of Windows reloaded
> every once in a while, though at least Win98 has less of the
> "you have moved your mouse, please put in the Windows CD and reboot"
> that Win95 had.  It's annoying enough to keep track of
> which Win98 serial numbers go with which CDROMs -
> writing the number on the CDROM helps, but you can't
> read it when it's in the drive :-)

Whenever I install a copy of Windows (rare these days), I always copy the
install files to the hard drive.  The reason for this is that half the
time when Windows decides it needs something else, it cannot find the
CD-ROM drive.

This new policy guarantees that I will never buy a Microsoft OS again.

I actually upgrade the motherboards on home machines.  I cannot afford to
repurchace, replace and reinstall every piece of software on those
machines just to upgrade the hardware.

Fuck them! Not for a game machine. (Which is about all that Windows gets
used for around here. That and Eudora.)

This is going to make life HELL for every sysadmin who has to deal with
this crap.  I expect that you will see alot of admins printing the serial
numbers and taping them to the machines.

Microsoft is just trying to squeeze every last dollar from their
customers. Many of them are going to get tired of it and tell them where
to go.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From robinc at iu.net  Wed Jan 10 01:59:59 2001
From: robinc at iu.net (Robin Cushman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:59:59 -0500
Subject: sterno
Message-ID: <000801c07aec$189a2680$3829fea9@4d3m00b>


  Are you the one selling products such as the sterno?

If so I would like to bid on the cases of sterno

please email me

Robin
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From robinc at iu.net  Wed Jan 10 02:05:01 2001
From: robinc at iu.net (Robin Cushman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:05:01 -0500
Subject: Fw: sterno
Message-ID: <001101c07aec$cc5580c0$3829fea9@4d3m00b>

Sorry about this email. I am seriously looking for sterno and did not realize this was a joke - du!
  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin Cushman 
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net 
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 4:59 AM
Subject: sterno



  Are you the one selling products such as the sterno?

If so I would like to bid on the cases of sterno

please email me

Robin
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 10 03:55:45 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:55:45 -0500
Subject: "Crime plan targets phone thefts"
Message-ID: <3A5C4DA0.48735F47@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Crime plan targets phone thefts":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1109000/1109234.stm

Apparently, Jack Straw (famously authoritarian British Home Secretary)
wants the phone companies to do something about street robbery of mobile
phones - now a third of all robbery in London and very embarrassing for
the government because it totally masks the genuine underlying ongoing
reduction in crime. 

Straw:  "We have a shared interest with mobile telephone manufacturers
and the operators in making telephones              more secure, It's
difficult because many of the phones that are sold these days are the
pay-as-you-go phones, but there is more that can be done and this is all
about joining together in a partnership with industries, the public and
the police to help get these crimes down." 

So mugging is joined to the now 6 or 7 horsepersons of the infocalypse
as yet another reason to  ban anonymous phones? I wonder who is in
Straw's driving seat this time?

Something Must be Done is always a bad start to legislation. Do we get
the Dangerous Telephones Act 2001?


Ken (and not his employers who are law-abiding people who would do
nothing to annoy a Home Secretary)





From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Wed Jan 10 04:05:51 2001
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:05:51 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101101355060.106-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

>I don't believe cell phones can be queried while they're off.  The phone has
>to xmit a pulse

Quite right. In addition to this, the data used to triangulate a phone
usually originates in the phone itself - GSM phones periodically transmit
field strength measurements to the base station of all the cells they hear.
This is the basis of normal triangulation, as most GSM networks do not have
a triangulation capability built in.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 05:19:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:19:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a , Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110071703.446Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
> *aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
> up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
> colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army. 

You mean like Belize and it's tax free zones? You're thesis that these
small commenwealth countries aren't tax heavens is incorrect. There was an
article in Wired just a couple of months ago about two .com dipshits with
no clue who were down there trying to make a go of it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 05:35:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:35:58 -0600
Subject: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?
Message-ID: <3A5C653E.6D43F0BA@ssz.com>

The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books is willing to
put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the current IP argument
is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.

http://www.baen.com/library/header.htm

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From rguerra at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 10 04:53:42 2001
From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:53:42 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <20010110020023.C19147@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <39531.3188102022@hse-toronto-ppp262035.sympatico.ca>



--On Wednesday, January 10, 2001 2:00 AM -0500 Declan McCullagh 
<declan at well.com> wrote:

> It also might be worth checking out the elliptic curve apps that run
> on Palm OS. --Declan
>

Declan:

A Canadian company, Certicom <www.certicom.com> has been developping 
Elliptic curve crypto libraries for quite a while. Thier software is in 
many embedded devices and several PDA's including the palm.

hope it's of help

regards

robert






From ge at cobalt.com  Wed Jan 10 06:59:13 2001
From: ge at cobalt.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9_Weijers?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:59:13 -0700
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>; from pxiao@Liberate.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com>

On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!
> 
> Peter

It's not the public-key operations themselves that use the space. I've
managed to squeeze OAEP-formatted RSA encryption into less than
20K. The public key was hard-wired, though. You probably want to stay
away from ASN.1 formatted data if space is a concern.

Gé

-- 
--
Gé Weijers             Voice: (614)485-2900
Sun Microsystems         Fax: (614)485-2929
Server Appliance Business Unit
1160 Dublin Rd., Ste 100, Columbus OH 43215




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 06:08:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:08:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: to Jim. 
In-Reply-To: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGAELDCKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Kristen,

Please don't send me private email. If you would like to have a discussion
then please leave it on whatever 'list' you happen to be refering to. If
you find this request strange then perhaps you should go to jya.com and
ponder his current situation. Additionaly I join public mailing lists to
public conversation, not to foster further private ones.

As to the email, I will forward what is relevant and convenient for me to
submit at the time. I make no promises about format or attachments, only
that if you follow the URL it will be worth your time. Only you can judge
that value however. Do as you see fit.

Have a nice day.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Kristen Tsolis wrote:

> HeaderDear Jim,
> 
> Thank you for posting relevant and interesting articles to the list.
> 
> I cringe from rehashing what others have already written, but if you could
> paste both the URL and the text of interesting tidbits directly into your
> posts, I would probable read your posts more often.
> 
> I also prefer not to receive HTML in my email.
> 
> Thanks, Jim.
> 
> -Kristen
> 
> 
> 




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From: partners at getyourcasinonow.com (partners at getyourcasinonow.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:43:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Strategic Partnership Proposal
Message-ID: <20010110144340.B749111E8E@ns.luckyscasino.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:18:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:18:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: to Jim. 
In-Reply-To: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGGELECKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110090921.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Kristen Tsolis wrote:

> sigh.
> 
> As we have already hammered this thread to death (i.e. Jim's inconsideration
> in the guise of free speech) I will refrain from any further posts on the
> topic.
> 
> Have a nice day.

That's actually a misrepresentation. What you are proposing is nothing
more than more 'freedom for me, not for thee'. Why?

Simply, your argument is,

-	It's personaly inconvenient, I want it thusly.

-	Because it's inconvenient then it should conform
	(too much ST perhaps?)

-	So, let's move the 'inconvenience' off on another party so
	I'm not bothered.

-	Never mind the effect on them.

It's a bullshit line of reasoning. It's self-absorbed, rude, and
socialist (in the sense of coerced monotonic behaviour).

As to those who threaten to kill-file such participants, this says more
about the kill-filer than the kill-filee.

The only requirement ANY participant in this community or any other should
have is to be fair and considerate of others and a willingness to
participate in a dialectic. Conformity or consensus are not required (and
are really detrimental). Whether a particular post conforms to some
'format' is really a moot point.

This is supposed to be an anarchy, yet the leaders of the 'conformity
clique' are supposedly anarchist themselves. How odd...

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:29:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:29:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It has been proposed that forwarding a URL with a page attachment is
copyright infringement. Taint so.

The situation is equivalent to a group of friends sitting around a table
and only one paper among them. As they discuss a particular article they
pass it among themselves. This is fair use and this is what forwarding a
URL and content attachment to a mailing list is.

The copyright infringement issue arises when you SAVE that post. The real
question of copyright infringement is the archivist who saves it but
doesn't have permission to hold a copy of that material. It is the act of
archiving digital data that is infringement and not sharing of access.

Strictly speaking the ONLY group who has a legal requirement to strip
attachments is archive sites.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:30:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:30:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: to Jim.
In-Reply-To: <20010110104543.B23183@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092956.446g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Is it just me, or is Choate worth keeping around purely for 
> comedic value?
> 
> (And here I was thinking it would be worthwhile to set up a
> Choate-free node! We could send invitations to all the subscribers on
> his node and then refuse to peer with it until he dropped the CDR:
> silliness. But then we wouldn't see paranoid pearls like the below,
> so never mind.)

Go boy, go! Come on, you can do it!

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jan 10 09:39:44 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:39:44 -0800
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
  Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010110093801.03ecf890@pop3.lvcm.com>

At 10:54 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>On Wednesday 10 January 2001 05:29, Ken Brown wrote:
>...
> > The sun still doesn't set on the British Empire (not while we have
> > Pitcairn!), London is still the heart of darkness, it is is still the
> > place where the money is (most of the money in the world, by orders of
> > magnitude, is in meaninglessly large dollar accounts in databases owned
> > by London banks, representing currency trades), and if you think you can
> > trust these guys to do anything other than act in the interests of their
> > own profits you are making a big mistake.
>
>Their interests are in making capital grow and prosper.  These
>are diametrically opposed to the interests of high taxation and socialism.
>I don't think the Bermuda dot-coms are worried about these guys acting in
>their own interests.  I think they are banking on it....

Published Wednesday, Jan. 10, 2001, in the San Jose Mercury News

WORLD NEWS
offshore banking
Developed nations pushing to get rid of tax havens

Wealthy countries aiming to recover billions of dollars lost to offshore 
tax havens are trying to convince small countries to give up the banking 
secrecy that has helped their fragile economies survive.

Officials from about 40 countries and territories were to reconvene Tuesday 
in Barbados for a second and final day of discussion about what the 
Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development terms 
``harmful tax practices.''

The organization's 30 member nations, which include the world's wealthiest 
nations, have set up international standards that they want all nations to 
abide by. Countries that have no taxes or low taxes are being pushed to 
change their laws

steve
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:46:56 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:46:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110094128.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It's interesting that the current users of SSZ are free to express
their views now, by moving to an alternate node. Even one of the 'CDR:'
free ones (which realy makes the point moot, but it is insiteful).
Personaly, I can't fathom why somebody who was bothered by the 'CDR:' or
my views would participate through SSZ, so why would a strategy as
proposed work? Ignorance.

What I try to do is offer my users an alternate, a choice. The polar
opposite of ignorance. My goal is to treet them as a true peer.

Information is power (that't WHY it want's to be free). Wasn't it Stalin
who said something about books being stronger than guns?

The reality is that the issue isn't the CDR, attachments, or whatever.

Just another demonstration of why anarchy doesn't work. "Do it my way or I
won't play..." ;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jan 10 09:55:12 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:55:12 -0800
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com>; from ge@cobalt.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 07:59:13AM -0700
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 07:59:13AM -0700, Gé Weijers wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> > footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> > protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> > within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> > alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> > about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> > smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> > (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> > the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> > anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance!!
> > 
> > Peter
> 
> It's not the public-key operations themselves that use the space. I've
> managed to squeeze OAEP-formatted RSA encryption into less than
> 20K. The public key was hard-wired, though. You probably want to stay
> away from ASN.1 formatted data if space is a concern.


Unfortunately anything that uses X.509 (like SSL) will require it.
It's possible to write small X.509/ASN.1 decoding packages.  One that I
wrote for a small-device SSL package takes about 11k code (gcc on Intel
PIII) and it's not very optimized- there's lots of room to squeeze it
down farther than the original application required.

Encoding ASN.1 really eats space though, because of the nested nature
of complex ASN.1... unless you do some tricks like I did in US patent
6,111,660.   Using this trick, we were able to encode SET messages
(really ugly ASN.1) using only 4 bytes more than the size of the final
message.  So we could comfortably run client-side SET in less than 24k
of RAM.

-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 10:06:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:06:25 -0800
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>


At 12:22 PM -0500 1/10/01, John Young wrote:
>
>Steve at one point cited cypherpunks as a hopeless
>venture to overturn government with ideas of
>cryptoanarchy. And laughed at that. Then continued
>propounding the false idea that NSA is needed
>to protect US interests. Not a word about such interest
>being those of the USG.
>
>The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
>deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
>Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks
>not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
>access on the condition that . . .
>
>What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
>show?


But, John, weren't you just a week or two ago speculating that the 
very _origins_ of the Cypherpunks group and list in 1992 had 
something dark to do with NSA covert ops?

As one who was there, at all times, I can most assuredly tell you 
that neither Eric Hughes nor Hugh Daniel nor Arthur Abraham nor John 
Gilmore nor Jude Milhon had any links to the NSA or other TLAs. If 
you knew these folks, you would know, too.

As for writing a book, this is for book writers.

Remember when Brin's book came out a few years ago? I had some folks 
in Palo Alto pressuring me to join in on a "collective refutation" of 
the "bad memes" in Brin's book, with the idea of some kind of 
speaking tour or counter-book to follow Brin around as a kind of 
"truth squad." I declined to be part of such a collective effort, 
because:


a) better things to do with my time

b) I don't like committee or collective efforts

c) no such truth squad would get even a fraction of the "air time" 
that a published author like Brin would get

d) the sheeple really don't care, anyway

e) Brin's book would be just another drop in the ocean, anyway. His 
vision of the future is unlikely in the extreme (t.v. cameras in 
police offices...sure, whatever), so refuting his "bad memes" is just 
a waste of time

As it happens, I never heard a peep out of this group. Maybe they 
dropped the idea. Maybe they got no one to sign up for the Anti-Brin 
Brigade. Maybe they got no press coverage. Who cares, anyway?

As for Levy's new book, I've only read parts of it. My copy from 
Amazon hasn't arrived, so I only checked out a few pages in the local 
bookstore. What I saw looked accurate.

As for his views toward "crypto anarchy," what else would one expect? 
If the future many of us think is likely is in fact _actually_ 
likely, then what does it matter whether Levy makes dismissive 
comments on his book tour or not? I didn't find him making dismissive 
comments in his book, which is what will be read, anyway. (And even 
if he did, see previous point...)

Look, it was fairly clear to me back in 1987-88 what was going to 
happen. I have all of my notes from that period, as well as some 
published essays. Without going into details here, many of the things 
I thought would clearly happen have _already_ happened. (And, by the 
way, I made a lot of money by investing in companies based on my 
expectations.)

I've already written a _ton_ of stuff on these matters. Some essays 
collected into books by others. (Maybe even the new Vinge book, 
though the editor has been incommunicado with me for three or four 
years, so I don't even know if my piece will be in the long-delayed 
re-issue of "True Names.")

So count me out on some effort to Write Yet Another Refutation (of a 
book that doesn't, in my view, need refuting).

Others are welcome to. I hear Gary Jeffers is still kicking around, 
eager to be asked to write such a book. Jim Choate would probably 
like to be a part of it, too.


--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 10:20:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:20:25 -0800
Subject: Tales from an Alternate Reality
In-Reply-To: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b68256fd045c@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:23 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>It's amazing how Jim can be so earnest and so completely
>wrong. Actually, I've known him too long: It's not remarkable, but
>predictable.
>
>(Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
>an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:29:37AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>  It has been proposed that forwarding a URL with a page attachment is
>>  copyright infringement. Taint so.
>  >
>>  The situation is equivalent to a group of friends sitting around a table
>>  and only one paper among them. As they discuss a particular article they
>  > pass it among themselves. This is fair use and this is what forwarding a
>>  URL and content attachment to a mailing list is.
>>
>  > The copyright infringement issue arises when you SAVE that post. The real
>>  question of copyright infringement is the archivist who saves it but
>>  doesn't have permission to hold a copy of that material. It is the act of
>>  archiving digital data that is infringement and not sharing of access.
>>
>>  Strictly speaking the ONLY group who has a legal requirement to strip
>  > attachments is archive sites.


Declan,

Jim Choate is actually correct in what he says above.

The laws of physics, the history of the United States and Europe, 
even mathematics...all are as he describes them. In his world. In 
"Choate Prime," the parallel universe which he lives in, the 
Constitution is as he describes it, electromagnetics work as he 
describes it, prime numbers have the properties he has told us about, 
and copyright law works in the way he describes.

As a reporter yourself, you should be appreciative of these reports 
from Choate Prime, that parallel world off-kilter from our own.


--Klaus! von Future Prime

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 10:30:11 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:30:11 -0800
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
References: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <a05010402b68259e4b2bb@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:54 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Jim sent me the below message directly without any indication that 
>it was also sent to the list. But from past experience, I know 
>better. Another example of not-quite-adequate Choatian social norms.]
>
>Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of 
>IP with the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft 
>Word (or a Tom Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am 
>not liable.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>  > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
>>>  an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>>
>>Hint: WRONG.
>>
>>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>>them in stock can be charged accordingly.

So, if I tear the cover off of a paperback book that I legally own 
(bought, for example), Choate's claim is that this "is in fact a 
crime"?

Gee, so much for scienter. So much for proof of actual criminal 
action. So much for tort law.

Jim, please call the police, as I have just torn the cover off of a 
book I own. Worse, I just cut the tags off of a mattress. Call before 
I commit more crimes.

Fucking retard.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jan 10 10:32:12 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:32:12 -0800
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
  Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010110103046.07580990@pop3.lvcm.com>

At 12:22 PM 1/10/01 -0500, you wrote:
>NY Times has a story today about the offshores being pressured
>by the big nations to curtail tax evasion and avoidance. The islands
>first resisted assaults on their sovereignty, but have agreed to
>do a study of the issue.

1 )     Tax Havens, Wealthy Nations Face Off
By REUTERS
BRIDGETOWN, (Reuters) - The leader of Barbados, spearheading small nations´ 
fight against demands from developed countries to reform their offshore 
financial centers to thwart international tax evasion, proposed on Tuesday 
setting up a new working group to give all parties a voice in the 
contentious issue.
Date: January 09, 2001

2 ) Parties Agree in Tax Haven Debate
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
ST. MICHAEL, Barbados (AP) -- Leaders of a meeting between wealthy 
countries seeking to halt tax evasion and small countries with lucrative 
offshore banking industries said Tuesday that they had made headway toward 
resol ving their differences.
Date: January 10, 2001
Source: AP | Section: World

3 ) Nations Agree to Task Force on ´Tax Havens´
By REUTERS
Representatives of wealthy nations and of Caribbean and other small nations 
branded as "tax havens" agreed on Tuesday to set up a task force to devise 
ways to reform offshore financial centers used by criminals and tax dodgers.
Date: January 10, 2001
Source: The New York Times | Section: World

steve
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 08:45:35 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:45:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: remove (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110104519.446s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



See,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

for help.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:05 EST
From: KetraSaj at aol.com
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: CDR: remove

remove




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 07:45:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:45:43 -0500
Subject: to Jim.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 08:08:43AM -0600
References: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGAELDCKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110104543.B23183@cluebot.com>


Is it just me, or is Choate worth keeping around purely for 
comedic value?

(And here I was thinking it would be worthwhile to set up a
Choate-free node! We could send invitations to all the subscribers on
his node and then refuse to peer with it until he dropped the CDR:
silliness. But then we wouldn't see paranoid pearls like the below,
so never mind.)

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 08:08:43AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Please don't send me private email. If you would like to have a discussion
> then please leave it on whatever 'list' you happen to be refering to. If
> you find this request strange then perhaps you should go to jya.com and
> ponder his current situation. Additionaly I join public mailing lists to
> public conversation, not to foster further private ones.
> 
> As to the email, I will forward what is relevant and convenient for me to
> submit at the time. I make no promises about format or attachments, only
> that if you follow the URL it will be worth your time. Only you can judge
> that value however. Do as you see fit.
> 
> Have a nice day.




From jburnes at savvis.net  Wed Jan 10 08:54:37 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:54:37 -0600
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Wednesday 10 January 2001 05:29, Ken Brown wrote:
...
> The sun still doesn't set on the British Empire (not while we have
> Pitcairn!), London is still the heart of darkness, it is is still the
> place where the money is (most of the money in the world, by orders of
> magnitude, is in meaninglessly large dollar accounts in databases owned
> by London banks, representing currency trades), and if you think you can
> trust these guys to do anything other than act in the interests of their
> own profits you are making a big mistake.

Their interests are in making capital grow and prosper.  These
are diametrically opposed to the interests of high taxation and socialism.
I don't think the Bermuda dot-coms are worried about these guys acting in 
their own interests.  I think they are banking on it....

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 11:02:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:02:21 -0800
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b68260fd5dcd@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:47 PM -0600 1/10/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Blueheart
>Alison Sinclair
>Harper Science Fiction
>ISBN 0-06-105820-3
>$6.50 US
>
>I quote from the 'fly' (or whatever it's called), the facing page to the
>first page of chapter 1.
>
>"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
>book is stolen property."
>
>They've been doing this for at least 20 years.

And incorrectly. Calling something stolen doesn't make it so. I could 
tear the cover off a book I own and then sell it to Alice.

Publishers resort to FUD the same way TLAs do.


Be sure to notify my local Sheriff's Office, in Santa Cruz County, 
that I am committing a crime.


Nitwit.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 11:27:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:27:59 -0800
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <200101101857.NAA09370@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101101857.NAA09370@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010405b6826674a669@[207.111.241.40]>


At 1:49 PM -0500 1/10/01, John Young wrote:
>Well, yes, I owe the cypherpunks founders an apology,
>so apology sent.
>
>Our rump session after Steve's talk last night, to which
>he didn't come, put me face to face with 20 nyms and
>let me tell you online has its virtues -- the main one
>being never having to have people stare at your
>TLA forehead mark and you at theirs.
>
>Everybody in the room said they're working on a
>book, really, but what they needed was a writer to
>burnish the jewels. There was a writer there but
>incognito, knowing what happens in NYC at
>any gathering when pols, doctors, lawyers and thieves
>lock onto someone who has authentic literary skills.

Well, I went through my "working on a book" phase in 1988-91, when I 
was working feverishly for many hours a day on my Great Crypto 
Anarchic Novel. (At least many of the ideas for the novel turned out 
to be useful for the Next Phase, which was Cypherpunks.)

I, at least, never fell prey to the Usual Malarkey of thinking that 
all I needed to do was feed some ideas to a Real Writer who would 
then help me finish it, or collaborate.

Fact is, generating a book is hard work. In terms of lining up the 
publishers, editors, etc. The actual writing may not be too hard, 
based on some of the fluff I see out there. (Some of the 120-page 
pieces of fluff by Silicon Valley types, for example, which look like 
something easily generated by anyone with even modest writing skills. 
In fact, I'm sure most of these books by Valley CEOs are, naturally, 
ghost-written.)

>
>Even a total stranger at the bar up front had a story which
>he said makes the stuff in CRYPTO mere child's play.
>NSA-trained he claimed to be and a long time battler of
>corporate evildoing. Great piles of files to prove it, only
>a ghost writer needed.

See!

At least we don't hear this kind of tripe at Bay Area gatherings. 
People are too aware of how foolish this stuff sounds.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 10 03:29:02 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:29:02 +0000
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
References: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mean-green at hushmail.com posted:
> 
> As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S.,
> Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
> By MICHAEL ALLEN

[...]

> Plenty of dot-coms are asking themselves the same question these days. Undaunted
> by their industry's growing ranks of flameouts and hoping to emerge as one
> of the profitable few, dozens of them are popping up in tax havens around
> the world.

One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
*aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army. 

Britain has a good track record of supporting business in its little
island colonies & ex-colonies - most notably Hong Kong which at one time
had a GDP larger than that of the rest of China by some measures - but
does anyone seriously think that if businesses located in those places
were ever seen as a threat by the UK government/establishment/military,
or by their US handlers,  they wouldn't just move in and close them
down?  Even some of the ex-colonies rely on Britain  or (especially in
the the Caribbean) the USA for foreign aid and military protection (that
could be "protection" as in "protection racket") and their governments
aren't in a position to stand up to either the Mother Country or her
Bigger Brother.  And, on the whole, their ordinary citizens (never mind
resident aliens) don't even have the legal rights they would in Britain,
and nothing like those of the USA.

The very fact that such business are allowed to flourish is a Big Clue
that they aren't really causing the US or UK governments any hassle.
They are quite happy to have most people at home paying tax & a few
overseas not paying tax but doing business. But if they ever really
wanted to get an individual or a business, they would.

The sun still doesn't set on the British Empire (not while we have
Pitcairn!), London is still the heart of darkness, it is is still the
place where the money is (most of the money in the world, by orders of
magnitude, is in meaninglessly large dollar accounts in databases owned
by London banks, representing currency trades), and if you think you can
trust these guys to do anything other than act in the interests of their
own profits you are making a big mistake.

Ken




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 09:33:29 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:33:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
In-Reply-To: <20010110121848.A24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113023.446v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> If I were to take Choate seriously, I'd point out that most of us,
> when we talk about "crypto anarchy" (which is a chapter by itself in
> Crypto), are not talking about lack of rules. In fact, anarchy can
> include many rules: protocols, standards, and social routines. Instead,
> we're talking about lack of *government* rules instituted by force.

I never said there weren't rules. Anarchy means no central authority, no
'arch'. The distinction you gloss is that the rules and protocols are
TOTALLY VOLUNTARY. The decision to comply is left at the discretion of the
individual. Some do, some don't.

> But all of us know better than to take Choate seriously. So we can do
> what's appropriate in an anarchy, and simply ignore him. Shunning,
> after all, is more than appropriate: When it comes to loons, it's
> even necessary.

Just another example of 'freedom for me but not for thee'. You feel it's
ok to shun, but not ok to be shuned. What a hypocrite.

In ANY sort of anarchy the act of shunning must be for something more than
simply refusing to go along.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From KetraSaj at aol.com  Wed Jan 10 08:34:05 2001
From: KetraSaj at aol.com (KetraSaj at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:05 EST
Subject: remove
Message-ID: <38.1073b1ac.278de8fd@aol.com>


remove




From bf at farc.org  Wed Jan 10 08:34:53 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:53 -0500
Subject: to Jim.
Message-ID: <3A5C8EE6.DB9EE7DC@farc.org>


At 10:18 AM 1/10/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Is it just me, or is Choate worth keeping around purely for
>comedic value?

Well he does distract us from the "50% spam, 25% can't we do something
about this spam" content of the list.

Besides, rarely do we get visitors from alternate universes who are
articulate
about how theirs works.

Maybe he's just a secret low-growth Texas plan to deter the Bay from
migrating to cheaper housing.









From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 08:37:42 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:37:42 -0500
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110113734.00a05b10@mail.well.com>



>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:35:09 -0500
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
>
>
>*********
>
>I've put some photos of Ralph Nader, who is probably the least photogenic 
>person in Washington, and that's saying a lot, at:
>   http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/ralph-nader.html
>
>*********
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41106,00.html
>
>    Nader Wants Internet Control
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) and Nicholas Morehead
>
>    8:25 a.m. Jan. 10, 2001 PST
>    WASHINGTON -- To most people, the Internet is a way to communicate, an
>    untapped business opportunity, or a symbol of dot-com greed run amok.
>
>    Not so Ralph Nader. The former Green Party presidential candidate sees
>    an opportunity for a new global bureaucracy.
>
>    On Tuesday, Nader called for the creation of a "World Consumer
>    Protection Organization," comparable to the United Nations' World
>    Intellectual Property Organization, only "more democratically run."
>
>    Nader, at a National Press Club event, said the proposed WCPO would
>    focus on regulation of privacy, e-commerce, intellectual property,
>    antitrust and Internet governance -- areas he said affected consumers
>    directly.
>
>    "The technology of the Internet is far ahead of any legal framework,
>    any ethical framework or global framework," Nader said. "Are we going
>    to be left with self-regulatory standards set and implemented by
>    individual companies? Are we going to be left with standards set by
>    the Better Business Bureau as a last resort?"
>
>    Another justification: Fraud. During the panel discussion organized by
>    Forbes magazine, Nader said a recent Harris poll showed that 6 million
>    Americans felt that they were "somehow defrauded" on the Internet
>    during 2000.
>
>    The odds of a WCPO being created anytime soon, of course, range
>    between zero and infinitesimal.
>
>    [...]




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 08:37:55 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:37:55 -0500
Subject: Military survelliance program aims to detect biowar attack
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110113745.009fccf0@mail.well.com>



>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:24:51 -0500
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: Military survelliance program aims to detect biowar attack
>
>
>*******
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2671596,00.html
>
>Catching The Bug Before It Kills
>By Doug Brown, Interactive Week
>January 7, 2001 7:26 PM ET
>
>Web sites and a broad sweep of electronic databases are being targeted by 
>the military for a vast surveillance project aimed at detecting incidents 
>of bio-terrorism before it's too late.  [...]
>
>********
>
>Date: Tue,  9 Jan 2001 22:58:56 -0500
>Message-Id: <200101092258.AA586350668 at mail.cipherwar.com>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>From: " Scully at cipherwar.com" <Scully at mail.cipherwar.com>
>To: <declan at well.com>
>Subject: DARPA's new Bio-Surveillance program
>
>URL: http://cipherwar.com/news/01/darpa_baa0117.htm
>
>BAA 01-17: A Biological Defense System or an Infringement of Privacy? 
>....Jan.10.2001
>
>In addition to the usual threats against the United States' national 
>security, a relatively new threat has arisen - the threat of biological 
>terrorism. There have already been attacks using biological agents in 
>other countries and possibly against the US military but these have been 
>on relatively small scales. The possibility of a nation-wide or even 
>global attack is made possible by the relatively small doses of the agent 
>needed, the communicability of the resulting disease and the misdiagnosis 
>of disease as either the common cold or flu. For a comprehensive report 
>regarding the threat of biological terrorism and especially that of 
>anthrax, please read Cipherwar's article, entitled, "Anthrax: Are We 
>Prepared" by visiting http://www.cipherwar.com/news/00/anthrax_meta4.htm .
>
>To address this growing threat, the Defense Advanced Research Projects 
>Agency (DARPA) Information Systems Office (ISO) has issued a Broad Agency 
>Announcement (BAA) to solicit research proposals for a Bio-Surveillance 
>System project designated BAA 01-17. The initial proposal was published 
>December 27, 2000 in conjunction with a relatively detailed fact sheet. A 
>final report is currently being prepared by personnel at DARPA and is said 
>to be available shortly. The article that follows is not complete but 
>includes all the information that is currently available. Stay tuned in 
>the coming months for updates as they become available.
>
>The main objective of this Bio-Surveillance program is to mine information 
>from non-traditional sources in the hope that the combination of 
>information will alert officials to a biological attack faster than would 
>be possible relying solely on diagnoses made by medical personnel. Due to 
>the fact that several infections with biological agents manifest 
>themselves with initial symptoms resembling those of the flu or the common 
>cold, the possibility that a terrorist attack could go unnoticed for a 
>lengthy period of time is one of the biggest dangers associated with such 
>an attack.
>
>As time passes, those infected with the biological agent die and the 
>disease can continue to spread throughout the population without any 
>treatment, quarantine or vaccination systems intact. Traditional disease 
>surveillance has relied upon the watchful eye of medical professionals who 
>recognize a disease, order the appropriate tests to confirm or refute the 
>diagnosis and take the appropriate course of action to treat the illness. 
>However, during the aftermath of a terrorist attack, the inherent delays 
>in the lengthy process of diagnosis would result in countless deaths.
>
>A typical theoretical example follows. Within 24 hours following anthrax 
>infection, an individual begins to feel flu-like symptoms. If the infected 
>person actually visits a doctor and if the doctor does not know that there 
>has been a release of anthrax into the environment, the doctor would 
>diagnose the person as having the flu and send them home. Meanwhile, the 
>individual becomes sicker and sicker and soon becomes refractory to 
>antibiotics designed to treat anthrax. There is a short window of time 
>that the medication will actually work and once past that, the infected 
>individual has a 99% chance of dying. Thus, with the aid of a surveillance 
>system, the epic results of a biological terrorist attack could be 
>minimized by detecting the attack and taking appropriate measures before 
>many lives are lost.
>
>DARPA, in support of their proposal says that "surveillance for covert 
>biological warfare and biological terrorist activities is needed to 
>counter the threat. If an event occurs, surveillance is needed to identify 
>the presence of the pathogen or the initial indicators of disease as soon 
>as possible so that a rapid response can be implemented." In fact, DARPA 
>conducted a simulated project that showed that with proper 
>bio-surveillance, an abnormal health event caused by a terrorist attack 
>could be detected days before identification by the medical community. 
>These critical days could save an entire city's population.
>
>The Bio-Surveillance system will collect data from grocery stores' sales, 
>pharmacy databases, school absentee databases, animal surveillance 
>networks, veterinarian and health care records, and apply the information 
>to an abnormal disease detection algorithm that will be able to identify a 
>biological attack.
>The Bio-Surveillance System program intends to demonstrate that it is 
>feasible to 1) develop an integrated system using diverse military, 
>government (federal, state and local) and commercial databases from 
>geographically dispersed locations, 2) glean applicable data from these 
>databases while maintaining patient privacy privileges, 3) analyze the 
>data to discern abnormal biological events from normal epidemiology 
>patterns and 4) provide alerts to the appropriate DOD emergency response 
>infrastructure.
>BAA 01-17 is only in the initial planning stages. DARPA holds lofty goals 
>for their proposed surveillance system.
>The vision for the Bio-Surveillance Project is to develop the information 
>technology necessary to alert the DOD of any clandestine bio-agent release 
>within the CONUS, in time for adequate response. The envisioned network 
>would gather and integrate information from non-traditional health 
>information sources...and state-of-the-art bio-sensors for a city with a 
>large DOD population. The system would support real-time epidemiological 
>analysis and autonomous alerts of any anomalous or unusual health event in 
>the DOD military or civilian population. Once a possible anomalous event 
>is detected, the system would provide the capability for a medical expert 
>to quickly analyze the possible cause and isolate the infected population 
>for timely treatment.
>As for money, $24 million of taxpayers' money will fund the five-year 
>DARPA project that will be a system to protect primarily Department of 
>Defense military and civilian personnel. What about the rest of the public?
>
>The United States and its allies need some sort of counter to the very 
>real threat of biological terrorism. However, is the development of yet 
>another public surveillance program really the answer? Especially a public 
>surveillance program that holds as its primary objective to protect DoD 
>military and civilian personnel? Over the recent years, a few undercover 
>surveillance programs have been discovered and people in general seem 
>appalled at the notion that they are under the watchful eye of Big 
>Brother. BAA 01-17 may become the first "publicly-acknowledged" 
>surveillance system, one that is known about while it is in action. 
>Combing the currently available information on the Bio-Surveillance 
>System, there is very little mentioned about protecting the public's 
>privacy. Perhaps the issue of privacy is a lower priority or even an 
>afterthought to protecting the nation and especially DoD employees from a 
>terrorist attack. We should be weary of such a system and approach it with 
>extr!
>eme caution.
>
>Contributed by meta4 at cipherwar.com
>
>For More Information:
>http://www.darpa.mil/iso/bios/baa01-17..htm
>
>Sources:
>http://www.arpa.mil/iso/bios/baa01_17faq.html
>http://www.darpa.mil/baa/BAA01-17.htm
>http://www.darpa.mil/iso/bios/baa01-17..htm
>http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2671596,00.html
>
>--
>Founder
>Cipherwar: Information Warfare for Free Thinkers
>http://www.Cipherwar.com
>--




From donjrb at excite.com  Wed Jan 10 08:48:05 2001
From: donjrb at excite.com (donjrb at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:48:05 -0500
Subject: Pro Active Internet Marketing
Message-ID: <0000178a04a5$00007b45$0000228b@209.162.52.118>

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From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Jan 10 12:11:43 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101101206260.17413-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> "If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
> book is stolen property."
> 
> They've been doing this for at least 20 years.

The reason for this is that if the cover is ripped off the book in that
manner, it is usually one that has been "stripped".  That is when a
paperback is reported as "not sold" and instead of sending the books back,
they just send the front covers for a refund.  (Books are heavy and they
figure it is not worth the shipping.)  The books are then supposed to be
destroyed. Some dealers will then sell the books after they have been
refunded in this manner.  (Gotta get that extra profit!)

That is why that warning is there.  It is because the books have probably
already been claimed as destroyed to the publisher and a refund issued.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:18:48 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:18:48 -0500
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110094128.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:46:56AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110094128.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110121848.A24697@cluebot.com>


If I were to take Choate seriously, I'd point out that most of us,
when we talk about "crypto anarchy" (which is a chapter by itself in
Crypto), are not talking about lack of rules. In fact, anarchy can
include many rules: protocols, standards, and social routines. Instead,
we're talking about lack of *government* rules instituted by force.

But all of us know better than to take Choate seriously. So we can do
what's appropriate in an anarchy, and simply ignore him. Shunning,
after all, is more than appropriate: When it comes to loons, it's
even necessary.

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:46:56AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The reality is that the issue isn't the CDR, attachments, or whatever.
> 
> Just another demonstration of why anarchy doesn't work. "Do it my way or I
> won't play..." ;)




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 10:22:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:22:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [Jim sent me the below message directly without any indication that it was 
> also sent to the list. But from past experience, I know better. Another 
> example of not-quite-adequate Choatian social norms.]
> 
> Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of IP with 
> the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft Word (or a Tom 
> Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am not liable.

You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
rights.

In the case of the Tom Clancy novel, there's usually a clause about no
electronic storage so if you had such a novel then yes possession would in
fact be a crime.

I would have thought the .mp3 controversy would have made this point
clear.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jan 10 09:22:52 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:22:52 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
  Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


NY Times has a story today about the offshores being pressured
by the big nations to curtail tax evasion and avoidance. The islands
first resisted assaults on their sovereignty, but have agreed to
do a study of the issue.

On a related matter is the likelihood of nations and private interests
engaging in cyberwar over who controls financial and perhaps
intellectual property resources. Steve Levy last evening said he 
believes cyberwar is soon to come, and cryptography will play
a crucial role, but he said this would be between nations, whereas 
it is probably more likely that nations, utilizing their combined 
intelligence and law enforement agencies, will combat private 
interests not each other, in particular those parties attempting 
to run financial transactions outside government control.

The nations argue they must unite to protect their citizenry
against criminal businesses and outlaws, the othe side argues
the need to protect government invasion of private affairs.
What is lacking in Levy's CRYPTO is that it does not appear 
to consider that multiple governments will collude against their
citizenry, rather than each doing so. 

Steve at one point cited cypherpunks as a hopeless
venture to overturn government with ideas of 
cryptoanarchy. And laughed at that. Then continued
propounding the false idea that NSA is needed
to protect US interests. Not a word about such interest
being those of the USG.

The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks 
not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
access on the condition that . . .

What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
show?




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:23:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:23:35 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:29:37AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>


It's amazing how Jim can be so earnest and so completely
wrong. Actually, I've known him too long: It's not remarkable, but
predictable.

(Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:29:37AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> It has been proposed that forwarding a URL with a page attachment is
> copyright infringement. Taint so.
> 
> The situation is equivalent to a group of friends sitting around a table
> and only one paper among them. As they discuss a particular article they
> pass it among themselves. This is fair use and this is what forwarding a
> URL and content attachment to a mailing list is.
> 
> The copyright infringement issue arises when you SAVE that post. The real
> question of copyright infringement is the archivist who saves it but
> doesn't have permission to hold a copy of that material. It is the act of
> archiving digital data that is infringement and not sharing of access.
> 
> Strictly speaking the ONLY group who has a legal requirement to strip
> attachments is archive sites.
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 10:43:53 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:43:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b68259e4b2bb@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124157.446H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> So, if I tear the cover off of a paperback book that I legally own 
> (bought, for example), Choate's claim is that this "is in fact a 
> crime"?

No, Tim. That isn't. If a store, who takes it on concession, has not sold
it by the time it's display date expires the cover is torn off. The book
is entered into the accounting system as 'destroyed' and it goes on from
there. The key point being, at least to this conversation, is that no
royalty on the book was ever paid. It was legally bound for the trash
heap.

So, possession is in effect possession of stolen property.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 10:47:43 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:47:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Blueheart
Alison Sinclair
Harper Science Fiction
ISBN 0-06-105820-3
$6.50 US

I quote from the 'fly' (or whatever it's called), the facing page to the
first page of chapter 1.

"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
book is stolen property."

They've been doing this for at least 20 years.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:54:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:54:20 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113350.446w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>


[Jim sent me the below message directly without any indication that it was 
also sent to the list. But from past experience, I know better. Another 
example of not-quite-adequate Choatian social norms.]

Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of IP with 
the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft Word (or a Tom 
Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am not liable.

-Declan


At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
> > an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>
>Hint: WRONG.
>
>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>them in stock can be charged accordingly.
>
>The primary distinction USED TO BE whether there was intent to make money
>off the act. Now the simple desire to want to make copies and perhaps even
>share them is under review. It's not the copy of the book anymore but
>rather simple access to the ideas (which is what copyright isn't about).
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 12:57:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:57:31 -0800
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>
 <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>


At 3:52 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 10:06:25AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>  e) Brin's book would be just another drop in the ocean, anyway. His
>>  vision of the future is unlikely in the extreme (t.v. cameras in
>>  police offices...sure, whatever), so refuting his "bad memes" is just
>>  a waste of time
>
>Right. Everyone's forgotten it; books like that (and Crypto, and
>Database Nation)  have a short half-life.

And of course there are at least a _dozen_ books on the general issue 
of "privacy." One of the Kennedy's co-authored one (or at least 
agreed to have her name put on the cover, perhaps). Whit Diffie 
co-authored one. And so on. A dozen, at least. Nothing new, either.

There are even a bunch of recent popularizations of crypto, 
steganography, PGP, etc. Do they really matter? At the margins, sure. 
Some kid in junior high school is perhaps discovering Singh's book on 
"Secret Codes" (or whatever the exact title is) the same way Whit 
Diffie read one of those early crypto books when he was a kid.

Ditto for political books.

It's not that I'm jaded, it's that there are TOO MANY DAMNED BOOKS 
out there. I spend a lot of time in Borders and Bookshop Santa Cruz, 
two very large and well-stocked bookstores in my town. (Declan can 
confirm this, though he may not have seen the new Borders yet.) I 
browse, in the classical sense, the New Books section most times I'm 
in there. The turnover is incredible. The range of topics is 
incredible, from climbings of an obscure peak in the Himalayas, to 
what women want in their sociology classes, to what the AOL-Time 
Warner deals means for prospects of peace on the Korean peninsula. 
And, every month, new books on quantum weirdness, new books on online 
privacy, new books on the history of the Web, etc. A flood of 
writers, a flood of books. The topics get more specialized in the 
same way Ph.D. theses have gotten so specialized. The grand 
unifications are few and far between.

Who reads this stuff?

We are drowning in a sea of factoids and well-researched books on 
obscure Beat Generation poets and books on the impact of technology. 
Big deal.

Very few current books actually are _important_. (There are some, 
IMO. "The Elegant Universe," "Noah's Flood," "Emerging Viruses," in 
recent years. The novels of Stephenson, Vinge, Gibson, in past years. 
"Atlas Shrugged," whatever flaws it may have. Etc.)

With the reported declines in reading amongst school children 
(various reasons, from poor schooling to lots of other choices like 
videos and games), and this explosion of titles, and with bookstores 
bigger than they ever were when I was a kid....hmmmhhh, lots of 
interesting forces about to collide.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Jan 10 10:09:06 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:09:06 -0500
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110113734.00a05b10@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGEENCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Not to worry.  Ralph is only momentarily distracted.  Just wait for the new
administration to start chopping down thousand-year-old forests (and
squishing some photogenic "poster animal" in the process).

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 11:38 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos




>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:35:09 -0500
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
>
>
>*********
>
>I've put some photos of Ralph Nader, who is probably the least photogenic
>person in Washington, and that's saying a lot, at:
>   http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/ralph-nader.html
>
>*********
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41106,00.html
>
>    Nader Wants Internet Control
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) and Nicholas Morehead
>
>    8:25 a.m. Jan. 10, 2001 PST
>    WASHINGTON -- To most people, the Internet is a way to communicate, an
>    untapped business opportunity, or a symbol of dot-com greed run amok.
>
>    Not so Ralph Nader. The former Green Party presidential candidate sees
>    an opportunity for a new global bureaucracy.
>
>    On Tuesday, Nader called for the creation of a "World Consumer
>    Protection Organization," comparable to the United Nations' World
>    Intellectual Property Organization, only "more democratically run."
>
>    Nader, at a National Press Club event, said the proposed WCPO would
>    focus on regulation of privacy, e-commerce, intellectual property,
>    antitrust and Internet governance -- areas he said affected consumers
>    directly.
>
>    "The technology of the Internet is far ahead of any legal framework,
>    any ethical framework or global framework," Nader said. "Are we going
>    to be left with self-regulatory standards set and implemented by
>    individual companies? Are we going to be left with standards set by
>    the Better Business Bureau as a last resort?"
>
>    Another justification: Fraud. During the panel discussion organized by
>    Forbes magazine, Nader said a recent Harris poll showed that 6 million
>    Americans felt that they were "somehow defrauded" on the Internet
>    during 2000.
>
>    The odds of a WCPO being created anytime soon, of course, range
>    between zero and infinitesimal.
>
>    [...]





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 10:10:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:10:36 -0500
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <a0501040cb680fcf033b8@[207.111.241.161]>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 09:42:07AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <a0501040cb680fcf033b8@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <20010110131036.A25413@cluebot.com>


Right. Most news organizations nowadays provide some kind of "alert"
service. Wired News has one that lets readers choose to be alerted by
name of author or keyword:

http://www.wired.alerts.com/wired/add_alert.jsp

These, to buttress your point, are better mechanisms to be alerted to
relevant articles than the cpunks list is.

-Declan


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 09:42:07AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> Your definition of "useful" is different from mine. I believe lists 
> like ours should primarily be about discussions and points of view, 
> not a third-hand CNET or Register or Slashdot. There are many Web 
> sources of breaking news (not that a lot of the "functional quantum 
> computer" sorts of stories are usually breaking news...).
> 
> Personally, I like it when someone finds a news item, provides a 
> detailed URL, even quotes (in ASCII, not MIME!) a paragraph or two, 
> and then comments on it and connects it to Cypherpunks issues.
> 
> Merely dumping out "general science" items, with general URLs, is 
> just plain abusing the list.
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 13:11:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:11:01 -0800
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
 Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>


At 3:46 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
>>  The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
>>  deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
>>  Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks
>>  not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
>>  access on the condition that . . .
>
>True. As a journalist, I do my best to avoid those conditions. I think
>of them (probably not an original thought) as entangling alliances.
>
>I could easily cobble together a book proposal that would include
>chapters by cypherpunk types; I'd edit. I've been thinking of writing
>a book for a while -- even had meetings with publishers in '96 -- but
>it would take too much time. Editing would be far easier.

I hope you don't do this. There have been several of these kinds of 
collections--a guy at MIT has done at least a couple of them (I 
forget his name, though three of my short pieces are in one of his 
books: the books cost $40-60 or so, for a damned paperback, which is 
why I don't have my own copy. Even at this high price, they don't pay 
for submissions and they don't even give out copies to contributors!).

What you'd end up with is a printed collection of a bunch of 
mini-rants or survey articles, whose total verbiage is just a tiny 
snapshot of the field.

There's probably a role for a good book on, say, "digital money," 
with a mix of overview articles and detailed articles. This would be 
a _lot_ of work, and the editor would need to be well-versed in the 
field.

But not a book on "Cypherpunk" themes. Too many seemingly-unrelated 
areas, too much background to cover (ironically, compared to digital 
money, but I think this is so).

And Yog help you if you end up just putting together whatever junky 
stuff people are willing to submit.
>
>>  What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
>  > show?
>
>Ah, it was a lackluster show and not that important.
>

I didn't see it, but I assume it was like most of the past t.v. shows 
on the NSA and codes and such: Discovery Channel, History Channel, 
BBC "Horizon," CNN, etc. These shows are easy for producers to put 
together: lots of shots of radomes and antennas and NSA buildings, a 
tour of the Cryptologic Museum, some obligatory juicy stuff about 
Enigma and Turing, interviews with talking heads about the need for 
blah blah, and so on.

Feh.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 11:16:16 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:16:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b68260fd5dcd@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110131137.446J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Are you a bookseller taking the book on concession? Are you listing it as
'destroyed' and then taking it to a local bookstore to sell it? No? Didn't
think so. Did the book have a cover when you bought it? Your comparison is
moot, you are ignoring who actually owns the property, and arguing that
because on one non-similar case one can do one thing then by extension
that same freedom of action extends to all others.

That's nitwit Tim.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> At 12:47 PM -0600 1/10/01, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Blueheart
> >Alison Sinclair
> >Harper Science Fiction
> >ISBN 0-06-105820-3
> >$6.50 US
> >
> >I quote from the 'fly' (or whatever it's called), the facing page to the
> >first page of chapter 1.
> >
> >"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
> >book is stolen property."
> >
> >They've been doing this for at least 20 years.
> 
> And incorrectly. Calling something stolen doesn't make it so. I could 
> tear the cover off a book I own and then sell it to Alice.
> 
> Publishers resort to FUD the same way TLAs do.
> 
> 
> Be sure to notify my local Sheriff's Office, in Santa Cruz County, 
> that I am committing a crime.
> 
> 
> Nitwit.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 11:24:25 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:24:25 -0600
Subject: The Register - The Conscience of a Hacker
Message-ID: <3A5CB6E9.74556E5E@ssz.com>


The article written by "The Mentor" (If you see Loyd tell him ravage says
Hi!)has raised its head again...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15958.html


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jan 10 10:49:31 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:49:31 -0500
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>
References: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101101857.NAA09370@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Well, yes, I owe the cypherpunks founders an apology,
so apology sent.

Our rump session after Steve's talk last night, to which
he didn't come, put me face to face with 20 nyms and
let me tell you online has its virtues -- the main one
being never having to have people stare at your
TLA forehead mark and you at theirs.

Everybody in the room said they're working on a
book, really, but what they needed was a writer to
burnish the jewels. There was a writer there but
incognito, knowing what happens in NYC at 
any gathering when pols, doctors, lawyers and thieves
lock onto someone who has authentic literary skills.

Even a total stranger at the bar up front had a story which
he said makes the stuff in CRYPTO mere child's play.
NSA-trained he claimed to be and a long time battler of
corporate evildoing. Great piles of files to prove it, only
a ghost writer needed.

Now our secret meeting place was in a unisex dormitory 
building, and this gent was surely trolling with TLA crypto 
comsec pickup rap. 

It's as though the whole place was channeling Sandy's 
natsec-cryptoporn. Confirmed by an attendee who said
the Net is dead except for exchanging porn, as  in the
beginning, as it will ever be. I asked for a copy of his
essay, and he said, do you write.




From support at myspace.com  Wed Jan 10 14:13:54 2001
From: support at myspace.com (Myspace.com Support)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:13:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Urgent info re: your myspace InBox
Message-ID: <200101102213.OAA23949@toad.com>



Dear Valued myspace Member,

As part of our ongoing efforts to provide users with quality products 
and services, myspace will be temporarily removing InBox from the 
myspace site.  

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.  But, don't 
worry.  Inbox is not going away forever.  We will be reintroducing 
InBox in a short while as part of a premium myspace service that 
will include all of InBox's benefits, PLUS dedicated storage space 
and servers to ensure that our valuable customers receive the best 
service possible.

This change in service will take place in two phases.  1) Beginning 
on Friday, January 12, 2001, you will no longer be able to receive, 
send, or forward emails and files from your myspace InBox.  
2) On Friday, January 26, 2001, we will be temporarily removing InBox 
from the myspace site.  As of this date, you will no longer be able 
to access or retrieve files or emails previously stored in your 
myspace InBox.  

If you have files or emails in your InBox that you would like to 
use in the future, please move them into a folder within your 
myspace account or to another location prior to 
Friday, January 26, 2001.

Stay tuned for more news on the re-release of InBox and myspace 
premium services.

Sincerely,

The Myspace Team 


This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Jan 10 14:18:32 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:18:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101101356430.23209-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

>It's not that I'm jaded, it's that there are TOO MANY DAMNED BOOKS 
>out there. I spend a lot of time in Borders and Bookshop Santa Cruz, 
>two very large and well-stocked bookstores in my town. (Declan can 
>confirm this, though he may not have seen the new Borders yet.) I 
>browse, in the classical sense, the New Books section most times I'm 
>in there. The turnover is incredible. The range of topics is 
>incredible, from climbings of an obscure peak in the Himalayas, to 
>what women want in their sociology classes, to what the AOL-Time 
>Warner deals means for prospects of peace on the Korean peninsula. 
>And, every month, new books on quantum weirdness, new books on online 
>privacy, new books on the history of the Web, etc. A flood of 
>writers, a flood of books. The topics get more specialized in the 
>same way Ph.D. theses have gotten so specialized. The grand 
>unifications are few and far between.

Something in the way you write that reminds me of my brother.  He 
watches Television.  He doesn't watch actual shows.  He flips to 
a random channel, watches it for 15-30 seconds, flips to another 
random channel, watches *that* for 15-30 seconds, repeat for hours...
He's not interested in actual shows, but he is fascinated by 
Television - what kind of images people compose, what kind of ads 
different channels have, choices in background music and how 
they've changed over years of soap operas, fashions in body type 
represented by shows of different eras, etc. It forms some kind 
of gestalt to him, some fairly sensible idea of how the filters 
on human experience are and how they've been changing. 

Me, it just drives bugfuck.

>Who reads this stuff?

The literate subsection of society has clearly become more 
diverse, during the same period in which the aliterate have 
become less so.  This is interesting.

>Very few current books actually are _important_. 

Perhaps true, but no two people have the same list.

>With the reported declines in reading amongst school children 
>(various reasons, from poor schooling to lots of other choices like 
>videos and games), and this explosion of titles, and with bookstores 
>bigger than they ever were when I was a kid....hmmmhhh, lots of 
>interesting forces about to collide.

Collided, I'd have said, in the last ten years.  It's just that 
we can't fully see the consequences yet. 

				Bear





From j.fulton at juno.com  Wed Jan 10 14:52:01 2001
From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:52:01 -0800
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.]
Message-ID: <20010110.145202.319.17.j.fulton@juno.com>


Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  You're
wasting it.

On a related note, God gave you a brain. 

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:34:16 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
writes:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > You are confusing two distinct issues: Form and Content.
> 
> Your first mistake. They are not distinct. One can not have one 
> without
> the other.
> 
> > On the Content side, you are essentially correct. I and many 
> others
> > find the beliefs you espouse on physics, law, and mathematics 
> > idiosyncratic,  peculiar, and often just plain wrong.
> 
> And I challenge you to demonstrate the errors. To date not one of 
> these
> supposed failures has been demonstrated.
> 
> As to having ideas survive it is the reason I post in public forums,
> private forums are worthless for this.
> 
> > However, as to Form, you're mistaken. Cypherpunks is NOT an 
> > anarchy - it's a forum for communication. 'Communication'  shares 
> > roots with  'Common' and 'Community' . More than one party is 
> > involved. For effective communication to occur,  certain agreed 
> > (often tacitly or by default) protocols and standards are adhered 
> > to by the parties (note the plural) wishing to communicate.
> > 
> > This is where you are failing ('What we have here is a failure to
> > communicate' :-)
> 
> No, a failure to conform. To in fact conform to an arbitrary 
> standard with
> reason to its existance. The fact is if you refer to the archives 
> I've
> posted forwards in a variety of styles. Without fail each and every 
> one of
> them (some of them being suggested now as 'accepted' alternatives - 
> which
> is a hoot for me) has come under criticism. In many cases by the 
> same
> parties.
> 
> > To be specific, your methods of citation of outside sources are
> > both burdensome and ineffective.
> 
> In your opinion. You say 'potatoe' and I say 'potato'. They are in 
> fact
> standard accepted citations methods.
> 
> > Consider a very recent example. This morning, you posted an
> > note titled: 'CDR: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?
> > 
> > The message consisted of:
> > 
> > 1.  4 lines of message:
> > 
> > 	The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books 
> is willing
> > to
> > 	put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the 
> current IP
> > argument
> > 	is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.
> > 
> > ...which would have been greatly improved by the sentence: "Baen 
> is putting 
> > some of its books on the net for (cheap) downloads."
> 
> Get a fucking clue.
> 
> > 2. A one line URL (a useful one, BTW).
> > 
> > 3. 12 lines of sigfile, including a non-working hostname
> > (www.ssz.com).
> 
> Actually it does work just fine.
> 
> > 4. An attached HTML page, which does nothing but put up
> > a screen saying 'Baen Free LIbrary', along with a broken
> > image link. 
> 
> Shouldn't have been any attachment, just the URL. Oh well. Shit 
> happens.
> 
> > Jim: Can you explain why you did this?
> 
> Can you explain why I should? Why are your beliefs as to posting 
> style,
> content, what I or any other member of this find of particular 
> fucking
> interest? Demonstrate why any of my actions to date have caused you 
> ANY
> sort of harm? Because without harm you've no business asking, let 
> alone
> telling them what to be doing or how.
> 
> You're exactly the sort of person Cypherpunks are trying to stop.
> 
>     
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      
> ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Jan 10 11:56:10 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:56:10 -0500
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.] 
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB2F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com] wrote:
> That's actually a misrepresentation. What you are proposing is nothing
> more than more 'freedom for me, not for thee'. Why?
> 
> Simply, your argument is,
> 
> -	It's personaly inconvenient, I want it thusly.
> -	Because it's inconvenient then it should conform
> 	(too much ST perhaps?)
> -	So, let's move the 'inconvenience' off on another party so
> 	I'm not bothered.
> -	Never mind the effect on them.
> 
> It's a bullshit line of reasoning. It's self-absorbed, rude, and
> socialist (in the sense of coerced monotonic behaviour).
> 
[...]

> The only requirement ANY participant in this community or any other should
> have is to be fair and considerate of others and a willingness to
> participate in a dialectic. Conformity or consensus are not required (and
> are really detrimental). Whether a particular post conforms to some
> 'format' is really a moot point.
> 
> This is supposed to be an anarchy, yet the leaders of the 'conformity
> clique' are supposedly anarchist themselves. How odd...
> 
> 
[I'm posting this to the list since Jim appears to prefer that - most people
would rather receive criticism in private, but I'll accede to his wishes
here.]

Jim:

You are confusing two distinct issues: Form and Content.

On the Content side, you are essentially correct. I and many others
find the beliefs you espouse on physics, law, and mathematics 
idiosyncratic,  peculiar, and often just plain wrong. However, I think 
we'd all agree that you are free to post them. The list IS an anarchy
in that sense.

However, as to Form, you're mistaken. Cypherpunks is NOT an 
anarchy - it's a forum for communication. 'Communication'  shares 
roots with  'Common' and 'Community' . More than one party is 
involved. For effective communication to occur,  certain agreed 
(often tacitly or by default) protocols and standards are adhered 
to by the parties (note the plural) wishing to communicate.

This is where you are failing ('What we have here is a failure to
communicate' :-)

To be specific, your methods of citation of outside sources are
both burdensome and ineffective.

Consider a very recent example. This morning, you posted an
note titled: 'CDR: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?

The message consisted of:

1.  4 lines of message:

	The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books is willing
to
	put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the current IP
argument
	is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.

...which would have been greatly improved by the sentence: "Baen is putting 
some of its books on the net for (cheap) downloads."

2. A one line URL (a useful one, BTW).

3. 12 lines of sigfile, including a non-working hostname
(www.ssz.com).

4. An attached HTML page, which does nothing but put up
a screen saying 'Baen Free LIbrary', along with a broken
image link. Jim: Can you explain why you did this? It adds
zero, zip, nada to the usefullness of  your post, contains
no link, and takes up space. Don't you check your 
messages before you send them?

This is (a) ineffective, since you don't tell us *what* Baen
is doing which is interesting, and (b) burdensome, since you
tagged on a totally useless attachment. You tagged it on to
every single copy received by list members.

A couple questions:

1. If by expending one minute of your own time, you can 
save *each* of your (several hundred) recipients a minute 
of their's, is this an unreasonable burden to ask 
of you? You're asking hundreds of people to consider your
posting - isn't it reasonable for you to make it easy for
them to do so?[1] 

2. You say:

> The only requirement ANY participant in this community or any other should
> have is to be fair and considerate of others and a willingness to
> participate in a dialectic. Conformity or consensus are not required (and
> are really detrimental). Whether a particular post conforms to some
> 'format' is really a moot point.
> 
Are you being 'fair and considerate of others' when you burden every single
one of your recipients, to the extent of proposing that they use search 
engines to puzzle out to what you refer because you were too lazy to 
obtain a durable URL?

I'm not asking you to conform in your beliefs and positions. Others may 
criticize you there, but I don't think I have (crankish as I may consider 
them).  I am asking that you show 'a willingness to participate in a dialog'
by communicating in the common manner. To do this, the 'format' is far
from moot. If you posted entirely in uuencoded PDF files,  MIME-encoded
AVI's of your interpretative dances, or in Latin, your posts would go
unread.

To be read, considered, and appreciated - isn't that what you want? To
reach those goals, it's not good to post in such a way as to suggest
either contempt for your audience's needs, or technical incompetence 
on your own part.

Peter Trei

PS: You *have* been improving. You no longer post kilobytes of
included material. This is greatly appreciated.

-----------------------------
Footnote:

[1] For non-clued readers, Choate's reference to 'ST'
probably points to Star Trek and a quote from the
show: 'The needs fo the many outweigh the needs of the
few'.] 







 



 





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 14:59:33 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]>


At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
>Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew
>Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury,
>in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on
>January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the
>applicant.
>
>The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not
>disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a
>disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation."
>...
>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>   in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>   stored or computer records, which:
>
>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or


By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of 
Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the 
e-mail he copied the list on.


(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail 
to CD-Rs.)


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From j.fulton at juno.com  Wed Jan 10 15:24:03 2001
From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:24:03 -0800
Subject: Ravage.... A man... a mission.... a moron
Message-ID: <20010110.152404.319.18.j.fulton@juno.com>


Hey!  You're pretty witty, aren't you?  In the past two minutes, you've
posted an incredible amount of drivel.  (I say this objectively - only
you would think it wasn't drivel.  Rather fond of your own 'voice',
aren't you?)  
A real freedom fighter, aren't you?  One of those fearless crusaders who
have grown tired of living under a dictatorship?  The tyranny has finally
been enough!  Jim's fighting back!  All you book cover-rippers better
watch out.....?

What a moron.  Didn't your mother ever tell you that the point of
heckling was to make the *other* guy look like an idiot?  She certainly
must've told you never to get drunk before you email, didn't she?  I
mean, come'on.  Most of us are working here, we don't go to Burger King
and bug you while you're working, do we?  We're paying politicians to act
like fools, why do you bother doing it for free?

Crawl out from behind your terminal, putz.  It must suck having your
social life rise and fall with the price of electricity.

"I'm not interested in your body...."  tee-hee.... I guess the pen's only
mighter than the sword if someone other than Jimmy's wielding it.  

BTW, "Form" and "Content" are *not* one and the same.  Of course, unless
we agree on a basis of logic, it's difficult to argue an issue, isn't it?

(wait, wait.... let me guess.... your response is going to be, "No it
isn't.")


"Before a larger group can see the value of an idea, Jim has to stop
insisting that 1 + 1 = 3 for large values of '1' "

Joel


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:10:04 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
writes:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:
> 
> > Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  
> You're
> > wasting it.
> 
> I've told you before, I'm not interested in your body. As to your
> bandwidth and it's cost, that's a personal problem. Good luck with 
> it.
> 
>     
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      
> ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 12:46:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:46:45 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:52PM -0500
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
> deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
> Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks 
> not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
> access on the condition that . . .

True. As a journalist, I do my best to avoid those conditions. I think
of them (probably not an original thought) as entangling alliances.

I could easily cobble together a book proposal that would include
chapters by cypherpunk types; I'd edit. I've been thinking of writing
a book for a while -- even had meetings with publishers in '96 -- but
it would take too much time. Editing would be far easier.

> What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
> show?

Ah, it was a lackluster show and not that important.

-Declan




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 15:48:53 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:48:53 -0800
Subject: Declan's book
In-Reply-To: <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>
 <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>
 <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>


At 6:31 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 01:11:01PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>  I hope you don't do this. There have been several of these kinds of
>>  collections--a guy at MIT has done at least a couple of them (I
>>  forget his name, though three of my short pieces are in one of his
>>  books: the books cost $40-60 or so, for a damned paperback, which is
>>  why I don't have my own copy. Even at this high price, they don't pay
>>  for submissions and they don't even give out copies to contributors!).
>
>As someone who makes the vast bulk of his income from speaking fees, I
>wouldn't undertake such a project unless I could pay contributors and
>get a generous number of copies to hand out. Seems only fair.

"Pay contributors"...such a radical, but hokey, concept.

Without going into details about my financial situation, the prospect 
of a dollar a word, or three, or whatever it is publishers typically 
pay contributors these days, is not enticing in the slightest. The 
phrase "I don't get out of bed for less than..." comes to mind.

A share of the profits might be, though I expect there would be 
little in the way of profits for a non-bestseller.

It's true that I don't get paid a single dime for the things I write 
for Usenet, or mailing lists, even for the things others choose to 
include in their books (which I give permission for, when they 
contact me). But I also don't have a schedule to adhere to, I write 
about what interests me, and I don't have any obligation to do 
extensive research of the footnote variety.

If someone wants to pay me, say, $10,000 for whatever I can crank out 
in a couple of days, I guess I'd be willing to contribute something 
to such an edited book. If rewrites were called for, or more research 
were to be needed, then I'd want more money.

Colin Powell recently got paid $200,000 for a 30-minute off-the-cuff 
speech on some "why foreigh policy matters" b.s. topic. Of course, it 
was underwritten by a Lebanese "businessman" said in news reports to 
have close ties to Syrian intelligence, so do the math. A legal way 
to buy influence in our strange society. If Colin Powell can give N 
of these b.s. speeches a year, my thoughts are surely worth $10K for 
a day or two's worth of writing. Of course, this won't happen.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 12:52:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:52:53 -0500
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 10:06:25AM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>
Message-ID: <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 10:06:25AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> e) Brin's book would be just another drop in the ocean, anyway. His 
> vision of the future is unlikely in the extreme (t.v. cameras in 
> police offices...sure, whatever), so refuting his "bad memes" is just 
> a waste of time

Right. Everyone's forgotten it; books like that (and Crypto, and
Database Nation)  have a short half-life.

> As for his views toward "crypto anarchy," what else would one expect? 
> If the future many of us think is likely is in fact _actually_ 
> likely, then what does it matter whether Levy makes dismissive 
> comments on his book tour or not? I didn't find him making dismissive 
> comments in his book, which is what will be read, anyway. (And even 
> if he did, see previous point...)

He didn't make dismissive comments, and was actually more critical
(though mildly) when we had conversations about it in the past.

The thing, though, is that Crypto only spends a paragraph or two --
really -- on crypto anarchy. It's not a focus of the book, or even the
chapter, its name notwithstanding.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 12:56:46 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:56:46 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110155646.D27031@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
> especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
> rights.

Oh, certainly there are such cases, such as if you're part of the
infringement. But as a general rule, my point is valid, and I'd
challenge Choate to provide a cite to the U.S. code that suggests
otherwise.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 13:03:01 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:03:01 -0500
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113023.446v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 11:33:29AM -0600
References: <20010110121848.A24697@cluebot.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113023.446v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110160301.E27031@cluebot.com>


Oh, nobody's forcing you at gunpoint to follow any rules; thus,
there's no coercion involved, just social norms. Contrary to what you
say, shunning can take place for simply refusing to go along: If
someone repeatedly violates norms, it's a perfectly reasonable
response.

As for whether OK to be shunned, if folks want to shun me, I support
their right to do so. But, not being all that Choatian, I doubt they
will.

-Declan



On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 11:33:29AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > If I were to take Choate seriously, I'd point out that most of us,
> > when we talk about "crypto anarchy" (which is a chapter by itself in
> > Crypto), are not talking about lack of rules. In fact, anarchy can
> > include many rules: protocols, standards, and social routines. Instead,
> > we're talking about lack of *government* rules instituted by force.
> 
> I never said there weren't rules. Anarchy means no central authority, no
> 'arch'. The distinction you gloss is that the rules and protocols are
> TOTALLY VOLUNTARY. The decision to comply is left at the discretion of the
> individual. Some do, some don't.
> 
> > But all of us know better than to take Choate seriously. So we can do
> > what's appropriate in an anarchy, and simply ignore him. Shunning,
> > after all, is more than appropriate: When it comes to loons, it's
> > even necessary.
> 
> Just another example of 'freedom for me but not for thee'. You feel it's
> ok to shun, but not ok to be shuned. What a hypocrite.
> 
> In ANY sort of anarchy the act of shunning must be for something more than
> simply refusing to go along.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 14:34:16 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:34:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.] 
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB2F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110162519.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> You are confusing two distinct issues: Form and Content.

Your first mistake. They are not distinct. One can not have one without
the other.

> On the Content side, you are essentially correct. I and many others
> find the beliefs you espouse on physics, law, and mathematics 
> idiosyncratic,  peculiar, and often just plain wrong.

And I challenge you to demonstrate the errors. To date not one of these
supposed failures has been demonstrated.

As to having ideas survive it is the reason I post in public forums,
private forums are worthless for this.

> However, as to Form, you're mistaken. Cypherpunks is NOT an 
> anarchy - it's a forum for communication. 'Communication'  shares 
> roots with  'Common' and 'Community' . More than one party is 
> involved. For effective communication to occur,  certain agreed 
> (often tacitly or by default) protocols and standards are adhered 
> to by the parties (note the plural) wishing to communicate.
> 
> This is where you are failing ('What we have here is a failure to
> communicate' :-)

No, a failure to conform. To in fact conform to an arbitrary standard with
reason to its existance. The fact is if you refer to the archives I've
posted forwards in a variety of styles. Without fail each and every one of
them (some of them being suggested now as 'accepted' alternatives - which
is a hoot for me) has come under criticism. In many cases by the same
parties.

> To be specific, your methods of citation of outside sources are
> both burdensome and ineffective.

In your opinion. You say 'potatoe' and I say 'potato'. They are in fact
standard accepted citations methods.

> Consider a very recent example. This morning, you posted an
> note titled: 'CDR: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?
> 
> The message consisted of:
> 
> 1.  4 lines of message:
> 
> 	The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books is willing
> to
> 	put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the current IP
> argument
> 	is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.
> 
> ...which would have been greatly improved by the sentence: "Baen is putting 
> some of its books on the net for (cheap) downloads."

Get a fucking clue.

> 2. A one line URL (a useful one, BTW).
> 
> 3. 12 lines of sigfile, including a non-working hostname
> (www.ssz.com).

Actually it does work just fine.

> 4. An attached HTML page, which does nothing but put up
> a screen saying 'Baen Free LIbrary', along with a broken
> image link. 

Shouldn't have been any attachment, just the URL. Oh well. Shit happens.

> Jim: Can you explain why you did this?

Can you explain why I should? Why are your beliefs as to posting style,
content, what I or any other member of this find of particular fucking
interest? Demonstrate why any of my actions to date have caused you ANY
sort of harm? Because without harm you've no business asking, let alone
telling them what to be doing or how.

You're exactly the sort of person Cypherpunks are trying to stop.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 15:10:04 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:10:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.]
In-Reply-To: <20010110.145202.319.17.j.fulton@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110170857.446N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:

> Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  You're
> wasting it.

I've told you before, I'm not interested in your body. As to your
bandwidth and it's cost, that's a personal problem. Good luck with it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:04:02 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:04:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ravage.... A man... a mission.... a moron
In-Reply-To: <20010110.152404.319.18.j.fulton@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180148.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:

> BTW, "Form" and "Content" are *not* one and the same.  Of course, unless
> we agree on a basis of logic, it's difficult to argue an issue, isn't it?
> 
> (wait, wait.... let me guess.... your response is going to be, "No it
> isn't.")

No, it's going to be that I didn't say they were identical. I said they
weren't independent/seperate (ie you can't talk about the form of
something until you understand its function and so on), not the same thing
at all.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 15:05:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:05:31 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110165440.446L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010110155646.D27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110180351.0246b0b0@mail.well.com>


As a general rule, mere possession of infringing material is not a crime. 
There are some exceptions, such as stealing the printouts of Tom Clancy's 
unpublished novel, but they are narrow and not that interesting and do not 
advance our understanding, even in Choatian sense, of the topic. --Declan


At 04:57 PM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Oh, certainly there are such cases, such as if you're part of the
> > infringement. But as a general rule, my point is valid, and I'd
> > challenge Choate to provide a cite to the U.S. code that suggests
> > otherwise.
>
>That suggests what is otherwise?
>
>Your claim was that possession of copyright infringed material wasn't a
>crime. You made no (zero, none, nada, null) qualifications. In effect
>simply possessing the item wasn't a crime.
>
>I demonstrated a counter example, that in the case of 'stripped' books
>possession was in fact a crime. I also mentioned the .mp3 situation which
>is another example where possession is in fact considered a crime.
>
>You just want to fight.




From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Wed Jan 10 16:11:35 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:11:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
Message-ID: <200101110011.f0B0BZg24423@rebma.pro-ns.net>




I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
admit a simple mistake.

Go back through the archives and you'll see lots of examples where Choate
makes an error.  I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on many of them
and assume that he exaggerates to make a point.  When someone calls him
on it, rather than admitting that he overstated his case, he makes it
worse.  The quoted material at the bottom of this message is a good
example of the start of one of these.

If you read the archives, you'll find examples of pretty much every
frequent poster to this list over the years posting a retraction or
correction for some minor detail.  You won't find any from Choate.

In the past, I've plonked him, but I found that I missed the entertainment
value.  He's interesting, in the same way a car accident is: you have
no real desire for the victims to be involved, but if it's going to
happen right in front of you, you might as well observe it!



At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
> > an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>
>Hint: WRONG.
>
>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>them in stock can be charged accordingly.
>
>The primary distinction USED TO BE whether there was intent to make money
>off the act. Now the simple desire to want to make copies and perhaps even
>share them is under review. It's not the copy of the book anymore but
>rather simple access to the ideas (which is what copyright isn't about).




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:15:27 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:15:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180441.446R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

> >On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
> >> especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
> >> rights.
> 
> Interestingly, copyright and patent differ on 'unknowingly taking'.
> If (as was recently mentioned) someone dupes some content and gives
> you a copy, you are not responsible -the copier was violating copyright,
> not you.  The copier could 'unknowingly take' by simply mistaking the
> content for public domain.

Yes, you are responsible. Being in possession of a illegaly copied movie,
software, .mp3, CD, book, etc. is in fact a crime.

Copyright is the default, not public domain. So you're saying that if
somebody takes something with intent to steal (even though) it isn't
really stealable then they aren't guilty?

I suspect a jury will not accept the 'I thought it was free' defence.
 
> But patents are different.  If sell you a chip, and you build a board with
> it, and Joe build a system with your board, and that chip turns out to be
> infringing a patent, my chip, your board, Joe's system, everything that
> uses the infringing work is legal toast.  (And could be stopped at the
> border if imported, which happened to an American FPGA vendor who uses
> TSMC.) This is a major practical problem e.g., in the selling of 'cores'.

How is this different, it's still possession (or use) of property
illegaly. Simple ignorance isn't a defence.

> So anyway, its definately possible to 'unknowingly take' IP.

No it isn't. You either develop it independently or you don't. You can
however take it without malice, which is what you're talking about.
Not the same thing at all.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:17:48 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:17:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Declan's book
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110181702.446S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Colin Powell recently got paid $200,000 for a 30-minute off-the-cuff 
> speech on some "why foreigh policy matters" b.s. topic. Of course, it 
> was underwritten by a Lebanese "businessman" said in news reports to 
> have close ties to Syrian intelligence, so do the math. A legal way 
> to buy influence in our strange society. If Colin Powell can give N 
> of these b.s. speeches a year, my thoughts are surely worth $10K for 
> a day or two's worth of writing. Of course, this won't happen.

The market speaks, your time must not be worth the same as his after all.

That must be crushing.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 15:26:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:26:40 -0500
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:57:31PM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]> <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com> <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <20010110182640.A29167@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:57:31PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> And of course there are at least a _dozen_ books on the general issue 
> of "privacy." One of the Kennedy's co-authored one (or at least 
> agreed to have her name put on the cover, perhaps). Whit Diffie 
> co-authored one. And so on. A dozen, at least. Nothing new, either.

Yep. That was Caroline Kennedy, I recall. Good review of privacy
cases, little on tech stuff. I have probably a dozen privacy books on
my bookcases. EPIC publishes a few books (such as their review of
privacy regulations) a year.

> out there. I spend a lot of time in Borders and Bookshop Santa Cruz, 
> two very large and well-stocked bookstores in my town. (Declan can 
> confirm this, though he may not have seen the new Borders yet.) I 
> browse, in the classical sense, the New Books section most times I'm 

Yep. I have been in the new Borders, bought one of this micro-Perl
handbooks there. 

-Declan




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:29:14 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:29:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <200101110011.f0B0BZg24423@rebma.pro-ns.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110182503.446U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:

> I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
> a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> admit a simple mistake.

Example please.
 
> Go back through the archives and you'll see lots of examples where Choate
> makes an error.  I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on many of them
> and assume that he exaggerates to make a point.  When someone calls him
> on it, rather than admitting that he overstated his case, he makes it
> worse.  The quoted material at the bottom of this message is a good
> example of the start of one of these.

Give me an example of overstating my case. The reality is that I've in
good faith answered, or at least attempted, to the best of my ability.
I've explained my thinking in detail.

Where are your rebuttals? I wait with hesitant expectation of your
enlightenment...

> If you read the archives, you'll find examples of pretty much every
> frequent poster to this list over the years posting a retraction or
> correction for some minor detail.  You won't find any from Choate.

Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out to
be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
are others.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 15:31:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:31:58 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 01:11:01PM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com> <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 01:11:01PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> I hope you don't do this. There have been several of these kinds of 
> collections--a guy at MIT has done at least a couple of them (I 
> forget his name, though three of my short pieces are in one of his 
> books: the books cost $40-60 or so, for a damned paperback, which is 
> why I don't have my own copy. Even at this high price, they don't pay 
> for submissions and they don't even give out copies to contributors!).

As someone who makes the vast bulk of his income from speaking fees, I
wouldn't undertake such a project unless I could pay contributors and
get a generous number of copies to hand out. Seems only fair.

> There's probably a role for a good book on, say, "digital money," 
> with a mix of overview articles and detailed articles. This would be 
> a _lot_ of work, and the editor would need to be well-versed in the 
> field.

Yep, and not something that I'd be that interested in. But a limited
focus would be necessary. Maybe something titled "Crypto Anarchy." :)

-Declan




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 10 15:34:00 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:34:00 -0500
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <20010110155646.D27031@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com>


>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
>> especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
>> rights.

Interestingly, copyright and patent differ on 'unknowingly taking'.
If (as was recently mentioned) someone dupes some content and gives
you a copy, you are not responsible -the copier was violating copyright,
not you.  The copier could 'unknowingly take' by simply mistaking the
content for public domain.

But patents are different.  If sell you a chip, and you build a board with
it, and Joe build a system with your board, and that chip turns out to be
infringing a patent, my chip, your board, Joe's system, everything that
uses the infringing work is legal toast.  (And could be stopped at the
border if imported, which happened to an American FPGA vendor who uses
TSMC.) This is a major practical problem e.g., in the selling of 'cores'.

So anyway, its definately possible to 'unknowingly take' IP.




 






  








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 17:05:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:05:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: For fun
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110190524.446V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://geekt.org/

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 10 16:06:45 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:06:45 -0500
Subject: Crypto books
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>
References: <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010110160551.007e57c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:03 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>Very few current books actually are _important_. 

I've found the following two books to be good reading and
even appropriate to this list: The Irish War, Tony Geraghty (c) 2000;
and The Story of Magic by Frank Rowlett (c) 1998.  

_Magic_ is about the career of a high school math teacher who
got into crypto under Friedman, before computers.  He eventually used them,
and there is much discussion about hilariously archaic IBM equiptment,
tabulator plugboards, relay circuit design, a whole chapter devoted to
building a device that performed autoindexed addressing (without the IBM
dudes knowing about it... you're not supposed to hack on the rented stuff..)
They were tossing hollerith cards in front of fans to generate
randomness.  They end up reverse engineering and duplicating a Japanese
cipher machine without plans. 

The book, written from Rowlett's perspective, reads pretty well, 
better than Kahn.  Rowlett describes some of the methods of attack, both
pencil and paper and punched-cards; the punch card operations & recipes are
fascinating to read about and try to figure out the modern equivalent.
It is hard to imagine the tedium that was involved in old cryptanalysis.

Obviously you get more out of the book the more you can relate to
the problems he faced -perfect for readers here.  



_Irish War_ is about the past and present north irish independence 
movement.  Its pretty fascinating reading about how the IRA and
British continually refined their practices and tools.  There's some
tech meat about surveillance, running a network, and homemade
military tech.  The IRA had metalshops to make their own weapons and
propellants and explosives, and had made their own recoilless rocket 
and HEAT warheads.  You get the same sense of intricately fucked historical
hatreds that you do if you read a brief history of yugoslavia.

You learn that the Brit SS set up a clothing cleaning service (p 90)
and ran forensic analysis on the collected clothes before cleaning.
Shades of the FBI's covert house cleaning service...or Boris's computer
repair shop.  

As a result of the War, North Ireland is set up like a demo room
for Louie Freeh's wet dreams.  This book might be 'important' for
documenting that.





 






  








From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 16:24:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:24:07 -0500
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b682aab3e8eb@[207.111.241.18]>


At 6:34 PM -0500 1/10/01, David Honig wrote:
>  >On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>  You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
>>>  especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
>>>  rights.
>
>Interestingly, copyright and patent differ on 'unknowingly taking'.
>If (as was recently mentioned) someone dupes some content and gives
>you a copy, you are not responsible -the copier was violating copyright,
>not you.  The copier could 'unknowingly take' by simply mistaking the
>content for public domain.
>
>But patents are different.  If sell you a chip, and you build a board with
>it, and Joe build a system with your board, and that chip turns out to be
>infringing a patent, my chip, your board, Joe's system, everything that
>uses the infringing work is legal toast.  (And could be stopped at the
>border if imported, which happened to an American FPGA vendor who uses
>TSMC.) This is a major practical problem e.g., in the selling of 'cores'.
>
>So anyway, its definately possible to 'unknowingly take' IP.

As this isn't the Cyberia-L list, thankfully, I won't try to dig up 
legal cites (even those accessible with Google)..

Item: There _have_ been cases where copyrighted material resulted in 
"infringing works" becoming, in your words, "toast." For example, 
cases where entire runs of about-to-be-distributed or 
still-on-bookseller's-shelves books were recalled because the books 
contained the IP of others.

Item: Even more often reported are the cases where videos are seized 
because of copyright violations.

The fact that the "recipient" of the material didn't "know" the 
violations had occurred does not let him off the hook. A video 
distributor with 10,000 bootleg copies of "The Matrix" in his 
warehouses is not off the hook even if he didn't "know" the videos 
were pirated. If he really didn't know, he probably won't face 
prosecution, but he definitely faces the "toast" situation with 
regard to having the videos seized.

Item: In many ways, the case with _patent_ violations is actually 
_looser_. For example, consider the case of the Kodak instant 
photography system. Courts found that the Kodak product violated 
Polaroid's patents. Kodak withdrew the product line and offered 
compensation to those who bought the Kodak system. Did stores with 
inventories of the Kodak camera face seizure of their infringing 
inventory in the same way that stores with inventories of bootleg 
copies of a video face seizure? No. Nor were those who had purchased 
the Kodak system told that they were in possession of stolen property.

I'm not disputing the general tenor of your comments about copyright 
vs. patent law, just noting some interesting examples where the 
opposite seems to apply, where violations of copyright law face 
stronger sanctions than violators of patent law do.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Wed Jan 10 17:31:57 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:31:57 -0600
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:29:14 CST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110182503.446U-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <200101110131.f0B1Vvc25567@rebma.pro-ns.net>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
> > a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> > admit a simple mistake.
> 
> Example please.


No problem.  A good example was thoughtfully provided by you quite readily:

>  
> Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out to
> be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
> are others.





This is somewhat like feeding the trolls, so I'll be content to quit
here.  I didn't think Choate was dumb enough to step on his dick so
quickly.  I can see I overestimated him.


He's not nearly the sport that David Sternlight was.




From bpayne37 at home.com  Wed Jan 10 18:49:55 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:49:55 -0700
Subject: order of vazquez?
Message-ID: <3A5D1F53.CA1E029E@home.com>


cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

Each time a do a google seach on what you've posted about what we're up
to

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/
http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/
http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/

I cringe. Allahu Ahkbar?

I merely learned too much as a result of my jobs. As you might guess, I
don't like the creeps.

I can't get the forth link to work
http://209.211.36.9/users/billp/forth2.htm

I want to get on to other things now.  Up-wind, of course.

best
http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/menlo.html








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 18:08:17 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:08:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: <200101110131.f0B1Vvc25567@rebma.pro-ns.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
> > > a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> > > admit a simple mistake.
> > 
> > Example please.
> 
> 
> No problem.  A good example was thoughtfully provided by you quite readily:
> 
> >  
> > Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out to
> > be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
> > are others.

But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
.308) IS a .308 and not .223.

Now back to your point, your example please?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 19:12:54 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:12:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <3A5D1A03.363B49D2@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> > .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> 
>    I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
> What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
> (mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify, 
> Jim?

Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.

It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
gun).

Honestly, I never could figure out exactly what was going on there. That's
why I finally dropped it. I just did some searches on google and didn't
find anything helpful.

Hope that helps.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 10 18:27:35 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:27:35 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D1A03.363B49D2@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Jim Choate wrote:

> But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> .308) IS a .308 and not .223.

   I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
(mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify, Jim?





From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Wed Jan 10 20:00:13 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:00:13 -0600
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110170857.446N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B6828BED.5E5%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/10/01 5:10 PM, Jim Choate at ravage at ssz.com wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:
> 
>> Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  You're
>> wasting it.
> 
> I've told you before, I'm not interested in your body. As to your
> bandwidth and it's cost, that's a personal problem. Good luck with it.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
> smaller group must first understand it.
> 
> "Stranger Suns"
> George Zebrowski
> 
> The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
I have a suggestion:  Jim is free to ignore us and we are free to ignore
him.  If you don't like what he says....ignore him.  You can even set up a
rule to automatically delete any of his notes once it hits your mailbox.
How about posting something that has to do with cyphers?

Bryan Green  




From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Wed Jan 10 20:02:58 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:02:58 -0600
Subject: Ravage.... A man... a mission.... a moron
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180148.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B6828C92.5E6%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/10/01 6:04 PM, Jim Choate at ravage at ssz.com wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:
> 
>> BTW, "Form" and "Content" are *not* one and the same.  Of course, unless
>> we agree on a basis of logic, it's difficult to argue an issue, isn't it?
>> 
>> (wait, wait.... let me guess.... your response is going to be, "No it
>> isn't.")
> 
> No, it's going to be that I didn't say they were identical. I said they
> weren't independent/seperate (ie you can't talk about the form of
> something until you understand its function and so on), not the same thing
> at all.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
> smaller group must first understand it.
> 
> "Stranger Suns"
> George Zebrowski
> 
> The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
Actually, you can intelligently talk about form without function.  I assume
you must have never studied art or any eastern religion?

Bryan Green





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 20:22:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:22:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: G3 chatter...
In-Reply-To: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110221311.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>    Oh, god, that goes waaay back. That's right, the HK G3 is a clone of the 
> CETME. Although I think, IIRC, that the CETME used the bolt from the German 
> (WWII era) MG-38/42 series of light machine guns, so it's not that the 
> Spanish really invented it. And, as a matter of fact, most of the CETME 
> people were postwar Deutsch refugees protected by Franco anyway.

True enough. Most of the European weapons designed through the early 80's
were either German or Russian based it seems to me. I've been looking at
the FN P90 for a while.

>     Nice weapons, all of them. Did you ever see the CETME light-weight 
> version of the MG-3 in .223? What a sweetie! Dual drums.

I don't know. I'm familiar with the dual drum setup.

>    Gotta' hand it to the krauts -- best damn weapons in the world. I could 
> care less what Smith & Colt do, as long as HK, SIG, and Walther keep on 
> doin' what they do!

I certainly like HK. Sig makes nice pistols. Haven't kept up with the
latest Walther stuff.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 10 19:58:06 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:58:06 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


   Oh, god, that goes waaay back. That's right, the HK G3 is a clone of the CETME.
Although I think, IIRC, that the CETME used the bolt from the German (WWII era)
MG-38/42 series of light machine guns, so it's not that the Spanish really
invented it. And, as a matter of fact, most of the CETME people were postwar
Deutsch refugees protected by Franco anyway.
    Nice weapons, all of them. Did you ever see the CETME light-weight version of
the MG-3 in .223? What a sweetie! Dual drums.
   Gotta' hand it to the krauts -- best damn weapons in the world. I could care
less what Smith & Colt do, as long as HK, SIG, and Walther keep on doin' what they
do!



Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > > But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> > > .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> >
> >    I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
> > What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
> > (mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify,
> > Jim?
>
> Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
>
> It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
> used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
> standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
> selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
> reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
> pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
> gun).
>
> Honestly, I never could figure out exactly what was going on there. That's
> why I finally dropped it. I just did some searches on google and didn't
> find anything helpful.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------








From ktsolis at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 10 23:29:15 2001
From: ktsolis at mindspring.com (Kristen Tsolis)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 23:29:15 -0800
Subject: to Jim. 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGGELECKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com>


sigh.

As we have already hammered this thread to death (i.e. Jim's inconsideration
in the guise of free speech) I will refrain from any further posts on the
topic.

Have a nice day.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at ssz.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 6:09 AM
To: Kristen Tsolis
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: to Jim.



Hi Kristen,

Please don't send me private email. If you would like to have a discussion
then please leave it on whatever 'list' you happen to be refering to. If
you find this request strange then perhaps you should go to jya.com and
ponder his current situation. Additionaly I join public mailing lists to
public conversation, not to foster further private ones.

As to the email, I will forward what is relevant and convenient for me to
submit at the time. I make no promises about format or attachments, only
that if you follow the URL it will be worth your time. Only you can judge
that value however. Do as you see fit.

Have a nice day.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Kristen Tsolis wrote:

> HeaderDear Jim,
>
> Thank you for posting relevant and interesting articles to the list.
>
> I cringe from rehashing what others have already written, but if you could
> paste both the URL and the text of interesting tidbits directly into your
> posts, I would probable read your posts more often.
>
> I also prefer not to receive HTML in my email.
>
> Thanks, Jim.
>
> -Kristen
>
>
>




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 21:06:57 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:06:57 -0500
Subject: G3s and HK-91s and FALs
In-Reply-To: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010402b682e4be45e8@[207.111.241.45]>


At 10:58 PM -0500 1/10/01, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>    Oh, god, that goes waaay back. That's right, the HK G3 is a clone 
>of the CETME.
>Although I think, IIRC, that the CETME used the bolt from the German 
>(WWII era)
>MG-38/42 series of light machine guns, so it's not that the Spanish really
>invented it. And, as a matter of fact, most of the CETME people were postwar
>Deutsch refugees protected by Franco anyway.
>     Nice weapons, all of them. Did you ever see the CETME 
>light-weight version of
>the MG-3 in .223? What a sweetie! Dual drums.
>    Gotta' hand it to the krauts -- best damn weapons in the world. I 
>could care
>less what Smith & Colt do, as long as HK, SIG, and Walther keep on 
>doin' what they
>do!

I have no idea what the hell Choate is foaming about now.

The HK (or H-K, or Heckler and Koch, since quibblers are amongst us) 
G3 was their entry into the NATO standardization effort in the early 
50s. NATO was planning to standardize on the 7.62 mm NATO round for 
its main battle rifle. (The length was 54 mm, hence "7.62 x 54 NATO." 
Henceforth, I'll skip reporting the length. You can look it up if 
interested.)

Heckler and Koch submitted a model. As you say, based on the Spanish 
CETME rifle, itself based on one of the late-war Sturmgewehr efforts 
(G-43 or somesuch though don't bother quoting or correcting me...it's 
in the books).

It was introduced in 7.62 mm NATO, very, very close to .308 
Winchester. (Some say there are headspace differences, though I have 
used 7.62 mm NATO in my Remington 700 VSSF, ostensibly chambered for 
.308 Winchester, and I have used .308 Winchester in my Federal Arms 
FA-91/G3, ostensibly chambered for 7.62 mm NATO.

(By the way, the Brits had already done much work on a battle rifle 
to be used with a round somewhat smaller than the 7.62 mm. But the 
U.S. decided the 7.62 mm was to be the round, and what the U.S. 
wanted in those years was what happened. As it turns out, the U.S. 
decided only a decade or so later that the 7.62 mm was just too much 
of a round for most soldiers, and for intended uses, and so adopted 
the 5.56 mm in the form of the M-16. Some think it was too light. In 
hindsight, it's really too bad the British efforts were blocked by 
U.S. obstinacy. The 7 mm (roughly equivalent to the .270 Winchester 
in use today) would have made a good compromise.)

The G3 is, of course, the usual fully-automatic-capable rifle. In the 
United States, and perhaps in other countries, the 
semi-automatic-only version of the G3 was called the HK-91.

(I almost bought one in 1975, and now wish that I had. I could have 
bought one in California as late as 1987 or so, and I also wish I 
had. What once sold for $300 then sold for $600 and now is 
unobtainable in California, legally.)

In addition, HK developed a variant of the G3 chambered for the 5.56 
mm NATO (again, closely similar to the .223 Remington). They called 
this the HK-93 in the U.S.

And HK took the same roller-delayed action of the G3/HK-91/HK-93 and 
used it for a 9mm version which comes in various forms, such as the 
MP-5. In the U.S. the semi-automatic version of the MP-5 basic model 
came in two flavors: the HK-94 carbine and the SP-89 pistol, 
sometimes referred to as an "assault pistol." (A travesty of a name, 
but there you go.)

California made sales of the rifles and carbines impossible to 
civilian end-user buyers after the Stockton shootings of the late 
80s. The SP-89 was purchasable up until the mid-90s. I acquired one 
in 1991.

The Federal import bans of around 1994 made the prices of all of 
these skyrocket, to where a mint condition HK-91 is around $3500 and 
a mint condition SP-89 is around $2500-3000. Sales in California (and 
maybe New Jersey, Hawaii, and other such places) are not permitted to 
civilian end-users.

However, the way the California laws and Federal import ban laws were 
written allowed certain rifles and handguns to be built with many 
foreign-made parts (up to 7 such parts) with the remainer U.S.-made 
parts. And thus the "clone" was born.

(By the way, the post-Stockton ban in California only dealt with 
certain _named_ models. And thus a renamed Colt rifle could be sold 
as the "H-BAR" instead of the "AR-15." Likewise, Bushmasters and 
OlyArms and Armalites.)

Anyway, one of the clones of the HK-91 is the Federal Arms FA-91. 
Another is the Hesse G3. Both use receivers (the main part that holds 
the bolt carrier and the trigger group) made in the U.S., but barrels 
and other such parts from disassembled surplus G3s from numerous 
foreign countries. The Federal Arms variant uses an aluminum 
receiver, a la the AR-15/M-16 rifle, and the Hesse uses a sheet metal 
receiver, a la the actual G3.

I have one of the Federal Arms clones. Shoots very well, takes 
standard G3/HK-91 magazines (of which I have 20).

The same applies to the FAL, the astounding rifle built originally by 
Fabrique Nationale in Belgium and adopted by even more countries than 
the G3 was adopted by. (My recollection from my copy of "The FAL 
Book" is that the design of the FAL was originally designated the 
"G1." Something else was designated the "G2." And the HK design based 
on the CETME was designated the "G3." This was for the NATO trials. 
After the G1 won the trials and was selected as NATO's main battle 
rifle, Fabrique Nationale resumed calling it the FAL and HK just 
called their rifle the G3. While the FAL was preferred, the G3 was 
also considered acceptable. And the U.S. threw a spanner into the 
works by deciding to ignore the trial results and to adopt its own 
Springfield model as the M-14. And less than 10 years later, further 
confusing matters by switching to the 5.56 mm M-16.

FALs are being cloned as well, thus bypassing California's rules 
banning "the FAL." I have three of these, all based on Brazilian (or 
Argentinian, I forget which) receivers from IMBEL and enough U.S. 
made bits and pieces to make them legal.

Fucking burrowcrats were tearing their hair out over all of these 
clones evading their bullshit laws.

Oh, and I acquired 40 (yes, 40) magazines for my FAL clones. You see, 
we all knew that California had passed a ban on high-capacity mags, 
effective January 1, 2000. Gun dealers across the country were only 
too happy to help those who planned ahead. And since the FAL had been 
a main battle rifle in conflicts all around the world, from Zimbabwe 
to Viet Nam to Borneo, magazines were inexpensive. I paid $8 each for 
most of my magazines, mostly in "unused" condition.

Which brings us to the present. All such rifles are now impossible 
for Californians to buy legally. We even have to register them. I 
dutifully registered mine. It's bullshit, and perhaps someday those 
who violated the Second Amendment with these laws will be tried and 
convicted, but that's the way it goes.

As to what Choate was debating, only he and the other residents of 
Choate Prime (aka the Austin Halfway House for the Deeply Disturbed) 
know what is going on in his head.

The HK-91 has been an accepted name for the semi-automatic version of 
the G3 for nearly 30 years, perhaps longer. The G3 is often used as 
shorthand for the class of rifles, even if they're the semi-auto 
variants. The HK93 is the accepted name for the 5.56mm/.223 variant. 
Sometimes some people call both the "G3," due to the basic family 
type of both weapons.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 00:42:26 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:42:26 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010111004226.01a57e30@idiom.com>


At 04:55 PM 1/9/01 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:33:11PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
>> in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
>> posted by Jim Bell.
>
>Remember that the subpoena delivered to JYA is for a grand jury
>appearance - not trial testimony (yet). 

Oh, right, good point.

>The "you can't trust email headers because they might be forged"
>argument didn't go far in CJ's trial, and they're not likely to
>fare much better elsewhere. The criminal trial system is perfectly 
>comfortable with evidence whose theoretical (or actual) perfection
>and purity are less than ideal.

But haven't there been people actively forging Bell's headers?
I forget who was forging whom in the CJ mess.
(And even that's not counting Detweiler.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Wed Jan 10 22:57:36 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:57:36 -0600
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:08:17 CST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <200101110657.f0B6vac27124@rebma.pro-ns.net>




Allow me to summarize:

1) I claim you can't admit an error.
2) You disagree, and ask me for an example.
3) You provide an example yourself.
   3a) Your example dates back nearly three years.
   3b) In your example, you claim you were right all along, and Tim
       was wrong.


Let's take it from there.  Either a) You were right and Tim was wrong,
in which case your example isn't an example of admitting an error,
or b) You were wrong, and Tim was right, and right now, you're showing
yourself incapable of admitting that.

If you'd have left it at "Back in 1997, I admitted that Tim was
right about the G3", you'd have had me.  I claimed you never
admit a single error, and you'd have found a counter example to an
all-encompassing declaration.

But you COULDN'T leave it at that.
You were compelled to add "I turned out to be right"...

And that pretty much confirms what I was claiming to begin with.

If NOMAD here was any good at logic, we'd be beaming him out to
the minimum safe distance right now.


My old man was often heard to quip: "I made a mistake once....
I thought I was wrong, but I wasn't."  

That second sentence is the punch line, Choate.  Just FYI.



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features defin
e
> > > > a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> > > > admit a simple mistake.
> > > 
> > > Example please.
> > 
> > 
> > No problem.  A good example was thoughtfully provided by you quite readily:
> > 
> > >  
> > > Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out t
o
> > > be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
> > > are others.
> 
> But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> 
> Now back to your point, your example please?
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 21:58:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:58:39 -0500
Subject: Declan's book
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 03:48:53PM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com> <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]> <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com> <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>
Message-ID: <20010111005839.A455@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 03:48:53PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> Colin Powell recently got paid $200,000 for a 30-minute off-the-cuff 
> speech on some "why foreigh policy matters" b.s. topic. Of course, it 
> was underwritten by a Lebanese "businessman" said in news reports to 
> have close ties to Syrian intelligence, so do the math. A legal way 
> to buy influence in our strange society. If Colin Powell can give N 
> of these b.s. speeches a year, my thoughts are surely worth $10K for 
> a day or two's worth of writing. Of course, this won't happen.

Ah, your output for two days is not worth $10K, at least based on a
publisher's estimation of market value. Sadly, politics may not be as
rewarding as investing. *

-Declan

* Unless you're Colin Powell





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 22:00:36 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:00:36 -0500
Subject: G3s and HK-91s and FALs
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b682e4be45e8@[207.111.241.45]>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b682fa9e69a2@[207.111.241.45]>



I got curious about Choate's latest mention of the "G3" issue, so I 
did some searching of the archives. Then it all came back, how Choate 
was claiming the "G3" was the same as the HK-93 rather than the 
HK-91, and how it is the preferred sniper weapon.

(In fact, HK sells a version of the HK-91, or semi-auto-only G3, as 
the "PSG-1." Definitely a .308 Winchester (7.62x54 NATO), definitely 
NOT a .223 Remington.)

Here's the original response I wrote. It covers much the same ground 
I just wrote about in my post on this topic just before this one.

Of course, what Choate says may be true in Choate Prime, even if not 
true in _our_ universe.


--begin post from archives--


To: cypherpunks at ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
* Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
* From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
* Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:46:25 -0700
* In-Reply-To: <199712231551.JAA25031 at einstein.ssz.com>
* Sender: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

------------------------------------------------------------------------



At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>  Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
>>  From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>>  Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
>
>>   I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
>>  weapon.
>
>Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
>Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
>pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
>is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
>91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
>the H&K home page...

Not much point in arguing with Jim Choate on this one. The G3 is the
orginal name (Gewehr). The G3KA4 is one of the .308 models currentlt being
sold.

For the past couple of decades the naming system has also included "HK -9x"
names, with this breakdown by caliber:

HK-91, the .308 model, aka the G3-xx models. Also, the variants like the
SAR-9 from Springfield, the Argentine and Greek versions, etc.

HK-93, the .223 model, much less common than the HK-91.

HK-94, 9mm model (which becomes the MP-5 and all of its variants and the
SP-89 as changes are made to the barrel length, stock configuration, etc.

(I know these things quite well, having almost bought an HK-91 back before
they came under new restrictions, and then having bought an SP-89.)

But if Jim doesn't believe me, consider this quote from the rec.guns FAQ:

"The HK series of weapons commonly avaiable in the US consists of the HK-91
(7.62 Nato) HK-93 (5.56 Nato) and HK-94 (9mm Nato). All
these rifles share common features, namely, the locking system consists of
a roller locked inertial bolt, which operates as a delayed direct blow
back action."

>
>>  For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
>
>Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay
>particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the
>break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup
>or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only
>thing these shows are good for.

Getting one's knowledge from, as you say, silly police shows, is not such a
good idea. For one thing, _entry teams_ are NOT snipers!

Go to some actual sniping sources. Or try some of the Web pages, such as
http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/ or http://sniper-store.com/ for
insights. Also, as I mentioned John Plaster's excellent 1993 book, "The
Ultimate Sniper." He discusses semiautomatics and their disadvantages in
price and simplicity compared to bolt-actions.

Again, entry team work is limited to close range. Sniping is quite
different, with ranges from a hundred yards on up to a thousand yards,
sometimes even more. The average police sniper takes his shot at a hundred
yards or less (less is always better). But he'll want the most accurate
piece, not a semi-auto.

Lon Horiuchi, the sniper at Ruby Ridge, used a bolt-action to take his shot.



>Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point...
>

This'll be my last response to Jim on this issue. It appears he's talking
about a completely different thing than what I am calling, and what is
commonly called by others, sniping.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

--end post from archives--
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 22:00:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:00:36 -0500
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180441.446R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 06:15:27PM -0600
References: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180441.446R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010111010036.B455@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 06:15:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Yes, you are responsible. Being in possession of a illegaly copied movie,
> software, .mp3, CD, book, etc. is in fact a crime.
>
Cite, please, to the relevant section of federal criminal law?

Oh, wait. You're just a blowhard. Nevermind.

-Declan




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 01:01:13 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:01:13 -0800
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113350.446w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010111010113.01a57a90@idiom.com>


At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate replied to Declan's >> > post:
>> > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
>> > an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>>
>>Hint: WRONG.
>>
>>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>>them in stock can be charged accordingly.

At 12:54 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of IP with 
>the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft Word (or a Tom 
>Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am not liable.

The paperback book example has nothing to do with intellectual property -
it's about real property, the dead-tree portion of the book that's left
when the bookstore mails the front cover back to the distributor 
for credit and claims the rest of the book has been destroyed.
Somebody, I think Jim, incorrectly said this was an issue about royalties,
which would be IP-related, but it's not - royalties are what the 
publisher pays the author when the book gets sold, while this is about
what the bookstore does or doesn't pay the wholesaler when the book
does or doesn't get sold.  (I'm not sure which legal rules cover it -
fraud, tort, conversion, maybe theft by the store, so possibly
possession of stolen property by the purchaser or other recipient.)

However, that doesn't mean Declan's correct :-)
Before the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, he probably would have been,
but the DMCA is a vague ill-defined mess of evil intentions that
are increasingly being expanded (or at least people are attempting to
expand them; how much holds up in court remains to be seen.)
The DeCSS cases are a relatively direct use.  The Scientology claims
against E-Bay for using electronic tools (their auction system) to
violate their intellectual property constraints (by helping
ex-Scientologists sell used E-Meters to people who haven't paid
the Church of Scientology for their trade secret religious materials)
is a way blatant stretch, but seem to have been enough to intimidate E-Bay.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From aviz at bigfoot.com  Wed Jan 10 15:21:52 2001
From: aviz at bigfoot.com (avi)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:21:52 +0200
Subject: !MAKE $30,000 IN THE NEXT 40 TO 60 DAYS
Message-ID: <200101102321.AIW22321@odin.inter.net.il>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 10 22:29:41 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:29:41 -0500
Subject: [spam score 5.20/10.0 -pobox] Re: IP, forwarded posts, and
In-Reply-To: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010110222907.00b0f690@idiom.com>


Heh.  I'd been assuming the original 
	"Does the string 'G3' mean anything..."
question was going to be about Macintoshes or something :-)

Meanwhile, the spam filters at pobox.com suddenly decided
that almost everything posted to Cypherpunks or Cyberia-L
this evening rates a  [spam score 5.20/10.0 -pobox],
so in standard Choatean fashion, I figure I ought to leave it
in the mail headers like his CDR: internal-use fields.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 04:11:43 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:11:43 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3A5D1A03.363B49D2@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3A5DA262.46EE26B9@ricardo.de>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> > But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> > .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> 
>    I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
> What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
> (mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify, Jim?

"mutterland" would be the right german equivalent of "mother country",
but I don't think anyone's ever used it. eh, maybe a few feminists. :)

must correct that. I just put it on google to check, and the term does
seem to be in use actually. weird, I've never heard it in conversation
so far.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 05:20:51 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:20:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: <200101110657.f0B6vac27124@rebma.pro-ns.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111071909.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:

> Allow me to summarize:
> 
> 1) I claim you can't admit an error.
> 2) You disagree, and ask me for an example.
> 3) You provide an example yourself.
>    3a) Your example dates back nearly three years.
>    3b) In your example, you claim you were right all along, and Tim
>        was wrong.

I'm under no compulsion to prove YOUR case. You claim that I'm wrong much
of the time. Let's see one of my claimed failures. Demostrate why it is
incorrect.

This is your hypothesis, let's see your work.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 05:25:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:25:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111072333.446g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> kind of ammo they fire.

Thanks but don't put yourself out, it isn't the issue under question. The
only question of interest is who produced the non-HK 'G3' that the Germany
Army used for about a year back in the early 90's (say 90-92?). And it's
completely pedantic at this point.

Thanks for the offer.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From rsalz at caveosystems.com  Thu Jan 11 05:22:01 2001
From: rsalz at caveosystems.com (Rich Salz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:22:01 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com> <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com> <3A5D7B75.2C69D0E2@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DB379.E14E77EB@caveosystems.com>


> Similar experiences here, we have an ASN.1 encoder/decoder in 8k.

At CertCo we used a slightly modified version of the Umich BER decoder
that
can now be found within openldap.  I don't know how big it was, but it
fit
into a Chrysalis card with a whole bunch of other certco firmware.
	/r$




From rsalz at caveosystems.com  Thu Jan 11 05:34:55 2001
From: rsalz at caveosystems.com (Rich Salz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:55 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com> <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DB67F.158C4BB0@caveosystems.com>

> Encoding ASN.1 really eats space though, because of the nested nature
> of complex ASN.1... unless you do some tricks like I did in US patent
> 6,111,660.

It sure looks like the Umich LDAP library is prior art which invalidates
most, if not all, of the independant claims.  (At least 1 and 6, which
are the key ones.)  This library was documented in RFC 1823, published
in August 1995.
	/r$




From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Thu Jan 11 08:20:33 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:20:33 -0600
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:20:51 CST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111071909.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <200101111620.f0BGKXc30175@rebma.pro-ns.net>


On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> I'm under no compulsion to prove YOUR case. You claim that I'm wrong much
> of the time. Let's see one of my claimed failures. Demostrate why it is
> incorrect.
> 
> This is your hypothesis, let's see your work.


I've explained it twice, now.  You're just not getting it.

You're not even understanding what I claimed in the first place.




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Jan 11 07:23:59 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:23:59 -0500
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
In-Reply-To: <3A5D9C7E.61AC6E72@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEFNCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I respectfully submit to you:

1.  Ralph does not represent me or my own views.
2.  His 1960's views of the industrial society view of government, a nation
and corporations do not, imho, apply to the internet or information society.
3.  Number 1 and 2 are worth mentioning again :)

I do agree with you that in general most people are concerned with their own
day-to-day lives and cannot or don't care to understand how decisions made
in Europe or in Washington, DC regarding the internet do, or could, affect
themselves or those they know. I don't know how to solve this problem, but
my own observation is the media is quite capable of whipping people into a
frenzy (perhaps as a distraction to the daily chore of worrying about
whether there is enough or not there is enough jelly in the pantry).  I
certainly don't believe an 'egalitarian elitist' (is there such a thing?)
like Ralph can solve our problems.  Observations:

- in the case of standards and practices, corporations will charge through
and push standards and practices which enable the growth of their revenues.
In their perception they are filling the voids standards bodies and
legislative bodies leave open.  Shame on standards bodies for taking so long
to approve protocols, and creating the kind of research and peer review
environment which rivals even mathematics research (which involves years.)
Shame on legislative bodies who do not try to fully understand our new
society and rush to pass laws which are awkward and unworkable.
Corporations innovate and want to move forward; waiting years for peer
review is not realistic for many standards (I'm referring especially to
layer 4 protocols and above in the case of the ip stack).  Imagine if
Napster had waited for the RIAA to come around to a new way of music
distribution...or waited for the IETF to come up with a peer-reviewed method
of peer-to-peer file sharing.  In many ways Napster acted like a corporation
(albeit with a different motivation).
- corporations and lobbying groups represent not a single entity (the
corporation), but a group of people who are employed by the company and the
shareholders of the company.  Perhaps this is the .1% of the people you are
referring to.  Few things motivate people as much as money does.  Oh, and
free music is also apparently a great motivator.
- for the rest of us not necessarily motivated by money the key method of
influence is participation.  Participation through corporations (change from
within is sometimes not difficult to achieve); participation as a
significant contributer to a movement or project (linux for example); or
participation by creating a new kind of application which drives change.

Anyway i'm frightened that people who are supposed to get it (dyson, nader,
etc.) and don't are making the decisions.  At least with a corporation you
can buy shares, go to a shareholder meeting and speak your mind.  How do you
reverse poor judgement in an individual?
pz
btw I certainly don't think I get it any more than anyone else...I've just
not heard anyone who has presented a world view that makes sense from top to
bottom (maybe there is no comprehensive world view).

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 6:44 AM
To: Phillip H. Zakas
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos



"Phillip H. Zakas" wrote:
>
> Not to worry.  Ralph is only momentarily distracted.  Just wait for the
new
> administration to start chopping down thousand-year-old forests (and
> squishing some photogenic "poster animal" in the process).
>

as a matter of fact, he DOES have a point. consumers have become the
weaker part of the market food chain because they are not organized and
because they ARE sheep. they'll cry murder every time you steal
something from them, but never actually do something, and the few who do
are too isolated to be even noticed.
corporations, on the other hand, have been far more intelligent. from
MPAA/RIAA straight to WTO they understood that lobby groups can increase
their influence greatly and turn the playing field to their advantage.
it's only fair to reply in kind and organize the consumers. or rather:
the 0.1% of them who give a damn.





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 11 11:35:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:35:56 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <a05010407b683b765c3f7@[207.111.241.45]>


At 1:12 PM +0100 1/11/01, Tom wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>  Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
>>
>>  It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
>>  used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
>>  standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
>>  selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
>>  reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
>>  pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
>>  gun).
>
>a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
>(he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
>exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
>kind of ammo they fire.

On Choate's point above, it is not FAL (a rifle, but I assume Choate 
must mean the maker of the FAL, Fabrique Nationale, now owned by 
another company, IIRC) who are making a caseless ammo rifle. Rather, 
it is in fact H-K. The G11 has been in development for close to 30 
years now.

(H-K are _also_ owned by another company. Last I heard, a British 
company bought H-K, though the factories and design groups remain in 
Germany.)

Most NATO countries have now adopted some variant of the 5.56 mm 
cartridge, in either M-16-type variants or in bullpup designs like 
the excellent Steyr AUG or the newer HK G36 (with a civilian model, 
the SL8). Neither the caseless ammo of the H-K G11 not the 
flechette-firing prototypes are getting wide acceptance.

And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again 
recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62 
mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at 
least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate 
like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say 
"See, I was RIGHT!")

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From kaaneone at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 11 11:45:56 2001
From: kaaneone at yahoo.com (Kaane One)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:45:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Radius Hacks
Message-ID: <20010111194556.68469.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com>


Anyone know of any exploitable vulnerablilities in
Radius Server? I'm on a project and their looking into
deploying Radius, whereas I'm reccomending TACACS+...

TNKS

/kaan30n3

=====
kaaneone
t3knikal op3rativ3
d3pt. of mystikal awareness and overstanding
777 ahknaton plc
luxor, egypt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 03:43:58 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:43:58 +0100
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGEENCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D9C7E.61AC6E72@ricardo.de>


"Phillip H. Zakas" wrote:
> 
> Not to worry.  Ralph is only momentarily distracted.  Just wait for the new
> administration to start chopping down thousand-year-old forests (and
> squishing some photogenic "poster animal" in the process).
> 

as a matter of fact, he DOES have a point. consumers have become the
weaker part of the market food chain because they are not organized and
because they ARE sheep. they'll cry murder every time you steal
something from them, but never actually do something, and the few who do
are too isolated to be even noticed.
corporations, on the other hand, have been far more intelligent. from
MPAA/RIAA straight to WTO they understood that lobby groups can increase
their influence greatly and turn the playing field to their advantage.
it's only fair to reply in kind and organize the consumers. or rather:
the 0.1% of them who give a damn.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 03:49:24 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:49:24 +0100
Subject: The Register - The Conscience of a Hacker
References: <3A5CB6E9.74556E5E@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D9DC4.14225023@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The article written by "The Mentor" (If you see Loyd tell him ravage says
> Hi!)has raised its head again...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15958.html

almost ancient literatury, by the net's standards. as usual, the
register proves to be a mixture of total cluelessness and occasional
gems.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 04:12:00 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:12:00 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
> 
> It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
> used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
> standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
> selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
> reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
> pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
> gun).

a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
(he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
kind of ammo they fire.




From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 11 10:36:11 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:36:11 -0500
Subject: Napster, porno, oh my! more german fascism
Message-ID: <3A5DFC30.3D7FF3C1@mindspring.com>


German police in Napster child porn probe
                 By: Linda Harrison in New York
                 Posted: 10/01/2001 at 21:14 GMT

                 German police have launched a probe into whether
                 Napster is being used to swap child porn on the Net.

                 The investigation will also delve into other online
                 file-swapping services such as Gnutella and MyNapster,
                 and hopes to determine whether users have stored
illegal
                 material on their computers.

                 "We are conducting inquiries in connection with that,"
a
                 Munich police representative told IDG.net today,
                 although no further details were revealed.

                 Napster, which lets surfers share music MP3 or WMA
                 files through its Web site, threatened to ban users
using
                 the service to trade pornographic images.

                 "Any exchange of image or film files would violate
                 Napster's terms of service," it said in a statement.

                 "Under Napster's terms of service, users are
responsible
                 for complying with all federal and state laws
applicable
                 to shared content. User accounts that violate those
terms
                 will be blocked from the service as soon as Napster
                 learns of such violations."

                 In related news, seven Brits pleaded guilty today to
                 taking part in one of the world's biggest Net porn
rings.
                 The men were among 107 people arrested by police in
                 12 countries suspected of belonging to an Internet
                 paedophile ring. .





From opera at access7.net  Thu Jan 11 15:33:47 2001
From: opera at access7.net (opera at access7.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:33:47
Subject: Best New Trade Show Display by Opera Portables, Inc. adv
Message-ID: <701.169254.180517@unknown>

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From cels451 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 11 15:59:12 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:59:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: universal bullshit decryptor
Message-ID: <20010111235912.74115.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com>


Finally, a free service to see through linguistic
bullshit:

http://www.pornolize.com

Try your favourite web shit site, like
www.whitehouse.gov:

http://www.pornolize.com/cgi-bin/pornolize/pornolize.cgi?lang=en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whitehouse.gov



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Jan 11 08:16:07 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:16:07 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Quando_os_exames_batem_=E0_porta_._._.?=
Message-ID: <00baf0716160b11WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 15:56:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:56:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111175557.446q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Thanks for the feedback.

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100, Tom wrote:
> > a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> > (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> > exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> > kind of ammo they fire.
> 
> current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
> version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
> anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
> find out.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From abuse at microsoft.com  Thu Jan 11 18:34:08 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:34:08 -0800
Subject: Confirmation Receipt
Message-ID: <200101120327.VAA20159@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft.

We received your email, but other than a copy of the initial 
Confirmation Receipt we sent you previously, your email did not contain 
any information about your issue. If there is an issue we can assist you
with, please let us know.

Thank you,

Matt H.
Microsoft Online Customer Representative



Original Message Follows: 
-------------------------
From: Abuse at Microsoft <cypherpunks at ssz.com>
To:      Abuse at Microsoft <abuse at microsoft.com>
Subject: CDR: Confirmation Receipt

Thank you for your inquiry to Abuse at Microsoft.com  

Your e-mail was received on Sun, Jan 7, 2001 at 4:25 PM and will be 
handled personally by one of our Customer Service Representatives within
12 hours. Our Customer Service Representatives can answer general policy
questions, validate your support eligibility, or refer you to the 
appropriate phone, e-mail, or Web resource.

To explore online support options, please visit 
http://support.microsoft.com/directory/default.asp.

Thank you, 
Microsoft Product Support Services






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Jan 11 18:03:25 2001
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:03:25 -0700
Subject: learn web design
In-Reply-To: <2ow8jw.orvl2m524p7e05f33@beverly.babit.com>
Message-ID: <3A5E037D.21961.5A9E67@localhost>


To:             	$user at domain.com
Date sent:      	Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:36 +0000
From:           	jessicainf2 at spire.com
Subject:        	learn web design
Copies to:      	wardweb at infonex.com, c3 at infonex.com, cypherpunks at infonex.com,
       	agorist at infonex.com
Send reply to:  	jessicainf2 at spire.com

Internet/Web Page Design Training University
is seeking Commercial Web Design Specialists NOW!
Earn BIG $$$ while you learn!
Affordable Training From Home-New Internet Career!

We all are looking for better income AND personal freedom,
features that a "web based" internet business career can deliver!

What makes training with our institution the answer?
1) To begin with, a 1600 student track record and growing daily.
2) Hundreds of successful graduates earning in Internet activities now.
3) $100's of Dollars of FREE Trial Software
4) Career assistance and placement help just for the asking.
5) Conditional Money Back Guarantee!
6) Affordable and/or Subsidized Tuition (earn while you learn)
7) An enjoyable interactive, self-paced, self-taught, at-home system!
8) Teaches you how to effectively create high paying web sites quickly
9) Our University instructors become "Personal Trainers".

Our dynamic "Quick Start" trademarked program can teach you how
to build professional results-oriented commercial web sites
in hours instead of days!

Students receive a package including fully functional,
all-inclusive software for use in the class, along with essential
trialware and freeware added to enhance your education experience.
This package alone, has an estimated retail value to the student
of hundreds of dollars!  This allows our students to learn without
investing large amounts of cash.

Guaranteed placement assistance is part of the total philosophy too!
Students successfully finishing this intense, hands-on training
will be guaranteed assistance on THREE levels in finding
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Our Student Advisors can put you in touch with dozens and dozens of
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experiences and their new careers or part time lucrative businesses!

Call and see if you would qualify for a government grant for our school!

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(ask for more examples from admissions):

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"When I enrolled at The University I had little skills
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me with site work where I have earned from $400-$1000
in a 2-4 day period!  I've built a valuable portfolio that
I can market to potential clients or employees.  This school
was a big break for me."

Jennifer Den Adel said:
"The staff at The University has been great.
In fact, I started out as an intern, and through this
past year I've found flexible hours, an invaluable
work experience, and the ability to earn a great income.
The School has opened the doors for me!"

Paul Luecke mentioned:
"With the fantastic program at this school, I was able to pay for
my training in about two weeks worth of work for their clients!
To learn this skill was great....but to have a program where the
University basically paid me to learn was unbelievable!"

After your graduation you also receive FREE Web Hosting Space
to display your work, AND, as your client base begins to soar,
we will provide graduates with ADDITIONAL HOSTING SPACE
FOR YOUR CLIENTS at next-to-cost pricing! This is a direct profit
center for YOU, the web designer, resulting from your clients
monthly fees paid directly to you, for hosting their sites.

Think it through...
If you develop your own clientele and you net just $50 a\ month
from your hosting fees, 20 clients would bring you an
additional $1000 a month in hosting fees alone!  Now you see
why, as a Commercial Web Design Specialist...THERE ARE NO LIMITS!

Our staff of Student Counselors and Advisors will help to properly
structure your proposed curriculum, and answer any questions you
may have when your call is returned.

(So we may continue to maintain our highest level of service,
class size will be limited each session, to better serve motivated
prospective students.)

To speak with the Admissions Office about your needs and whether
you are the student we are looking for, please phone the following
number and leave the outlined responses shown below.

Please SPEAK SLOWLY and CLEARLY

>>>>>>>>> Call (303) 215-3062 <<<<<<<<<<<<
When you call we will need:
Your Full Name
Your Phone Number for the Interview
Best Weekday to Contact You
Your E-Mail Address



(REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS)
This mailing is done by an independent marketing company.
We respect your online privacy and apologize if you have
received this message in error. We do respect our remove lists!
Please do not use the reply to this e-mail, an e-mail reply
cannot be read! If you would like to be removed from our mailing
list just click below and send us a remove request email.

(To Be Removed)




From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Jan 11 18:04:02 2001
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:04:02 -0700
Subject: learn web design
In-Reply-To: <2ow8jw.orvl2m524p7e05f33@beverly.babit.com>
Message-ID: <3A5E03A2.15444.5B2CE8@localhost>


To:             	$user at domain.com
Date sent:      	Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:36 +0000
From:           	jessicainf2 at spire.com
Subject:        	learn web design
Copies to:      	wardweb at infonex.com, c3 at infonex.com, cypherpunks at infonex.com,
       	agorist at infonex.com
Send reply to:  	jessicainf2 at spire.com

Internet/Web Page Design Training University
is seeking Commercial Web Design Specialists NOW!
Earn BIG $$$ while you learn!
Affordable Training From Home-New Internet Career!

We all are looking for better income AND personal freedom,
features that a "web based" internet business career can deliver!

What makes training with our institution the answer?
1) To begin with, a 1600 student track record and growing daily.
2) Hundreds of successful graduates earning in Internet activities now.
3) $100's of Dollars of FREE Trial Software
4) Career assistance and placement help just for the asking.
5) Conditional Money Back Guarantee!
6) Affordable and/or Subsidized Tuition (earn while you learn)
7) An enjoyable interactive, self-paced, self-taught, at-home system!
8) Teaches you how to effectively create high paying web sites quickly
9) Our University instructors become "Personal Trainers".

Our dynamic "Quick Start" trademarked program can teach you how
to build professional results-oriented commercial web sites
in hours instead of days!

Students receive a package including fully functional,
all-inclusive software for use in the class, along with essential
trialware and freeware added to enhance your education experience.
This package alone, has an estimated retail value to the student
of hundreds of dollars!  This allows our students to learn without
investing large amounts of cash.

Guaranteed placement assistance is part of the total philosophy too!
Students successfully finishing this intense, hands-on training
will be guaranteed assistance on THREE levels in finding
work and employment for which they can be compensated for!

Our Student Advisors can put you in touch with dozens and dozens of
satisfied graduates who are glad to tell of their Design School
experiences and their new careers or part time lucrative businesses!

Call and see if you would qualify for a government grant for our school!

We point with pride to a few of our graduates
(ask for more examples from admissions):

Mark Mentzer says:
"When I enrolled at The University I had little skills
in the web process. Now six months later they are providing
me with site work where I have earned from $400-$1000
in a 2-4 day period!  I've built a valuable portfolio that
I can market to potential clients or employees.  This school
was a big break for me."

Jennifer Den Adel said:
"The staff at The University has been great.
In fact, I started out as an intern, and through this
past year I've found flexible hours, an invaluable
work experience, and the ability to earn a great income.
The School has opened the doors for me!"

Paul Luecke mentioned:
"With the fantastic program at this school, I was able to pay for
my training in about two weeks worth of work for their clients!
To learn this skill was great....but to have a program where the
University basically paid me to learn was unbelievable!"

After your graduation you also receive FREE Web Hosting Space
to display your work, AND, as your client base begins to soar,
we will provide graduates with ADDITIONAL HOSTING SPACE
FOR YOUR CLIENTS at next-to-cost pricing! This is a direct profit
center for YOU, the web designer, resulting from your clients
monthly fees paid directly to you, for hosting their sites.

Think it through...
If you develop your own clientele and you net just $50 a\ month
from your hosting fees, 20 clients would bring you an
additional $1000 a month in hosting fees alone!  Now you see
why, as a Commercial Web Design Specialist...THERE ARE NO LIMITS!

Our staff of Student Counselors and Advisors will help to properly
structure your proposed curriculum, and answer any questions you
may have when your call is returned.

(So we may continue to maintain our highest level of service,
class size will be limited each session, to better serve motivated
prospective students.)

To speak with the Admissions Office about your needs and whether
you are the student we are looking for, please phone the following
number and leave the outlined responses shown below.

Please SPEAK SLOWLY and CLEARLY

>>>>>>>>> Call (303) 215-3062 <<<<<<<<<<<<
When you call we will need:
Your Full Name
Your Phone Number for the Interview
Best Weekday to Contact You
Your E-Mail Address



(REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS)
This mailing is done by an independent marketing company.
We respect your online privacy and apologize if you have
received this message in error. We do respect our remove lists!
Please do not use the reply to this e-mail, an e-mail reply
cannot be read! If you would like to be removed from our mailing
list just click below and send us a remove request email.

(To Be Removed)




From eay at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 01:23:01 2001
From: eay at pobox.com (Eric Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:23:01 +1000
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com> <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D7B75.2C69D0E2@pobox.com>

Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 07:59:13AM -0700, Gé Weijers wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> > > footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> > > protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> > > within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> > > alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> > > about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> > > smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> > > (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> > > the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> > > anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> >
> > It's not the public-key operations themselves that use the space. I've
> > managed to squeeze OAEP-formatted RSA encryption into less than
> > 20K. The public key was hard-wired, though. You probably want to stay
> > away from ASN.1 formatted data if space is a concern.

I have been doing some work on this recently, and also have gotten good,
results, specifically, PKCS#1 RSA multi-prime on a Palm is 16.5k
(1024-2 17.63sec, 1024-3 9.6sec, palm IIIx (68xxx 20mhz)), or more
interestingly
18k on a Psion (ARM7 36mhz, 1024-3 private in 0.18sec and 1024-2 in 0.34sec).
I'm waiting for ARM (or SH3/4 or anything other than 68xxx) to take over
the world.  It make the choice of public key algorithm based on
CPU load less irrelevant when low end devices have this sort of grunt.

I am interested in knowing how small EC can be for both
public/private operations.  Any public information or peoples experiences?

> Unfortunately anything that uses X.509 (like SSL) will require it.
> It's possible to write small X.509/ASN.1 decoding packages.  One that I
> wrote for a small-device SSL package takes about 11k code (gcc on Intel
> PIII) and it's not very optimized- there's lots of room to squeeze it
> down farther than the original application required.

Similar experiences here, we have an ASN.1 encoder/decoder in 8k.
I have not tries the really complex stuff yet,
like SET (and hopefully never will :-).  It is nice to have an ASN.1 encoder
this small but rather obviously it requires a bit of work per
ASN.1 data type.

eric (who has a day job at eay at rsasecurity.com.au)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 19:46:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:46:28 -0800
Subject: [MEETINGPUNKS] Jan 2001 Cypherpunks SF -- "CRYPTO" author
  Steven Levy, DVD/DeCSS, Martin Minow Remembered
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010111194628.00b3f750@idiom.com>


From:  Dave Del Torto <meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org>
-------------------------

Greetings,

Cypherpunks/Meetingpunks Announcements for January 2001!

Every month they seem to doubt us and expect our early demise, but 
EVERY SECOND SATURDAY, rain or shine, we have ... wait for it ... 
that's right: a Cypherpunks Physical Meeting (that means you show 
up!) somewhere in the San Francisco Bay Area, and this coming Second 
Saturday is no different... no budget, no frills, no BS (just the way 
Martin would've liked it) we're not going away until the NSA does. 
Check out the complete scoop at:

  This Month in SF: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/2001/0113-SF.html>

  All Jan Meetings: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/2001/01.html>
   Admin/List Page: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html>
The Handy Shortcut: <http://cryptorights.org/meetingpunks>



January 2001/San Francisco Meeting Synopsis:
............................................................................

SF Bay Area Cypherpunks (80th Chairborne Regiment) 
January 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday 13 January 2001
TIME:   1:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  San Francisco Law Enforcement Regional Training Center
        (San Francisco Police Academy)
         Room 102  (or follow the cribs)

  This is the First Cypherpunks Meeting of the Millennium!

  The January 2001 Physical Meeting of the San Francisco Bay Area
  Cypherpunks will feature Steven Levy, author of the new 
  cypherpunk book "CRYPTO". If you haven't got your copy yet, buy one 
  and bring it to the meeting! We'll also spend some time catching up 
  with Cindy Cohn on the EFF's DVD/DeCSS case. At the end of 
  the meeting, we'll remember our departed friend Martin Minow 
  (who would have really enjoyed Steven's book).

  As always, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil and members of the
  Public are encouraged to attend, especially Martin's Friends and Family.


Meeting Agenda:      (all timings are approximate)

      "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."

  12:00 -  1:00 - Informal milling about, food & beverages.
   1:00 -  3:00 - General Meeting:
                  HAL2001 Planning
                  A Report from Burma!
                  CryptoRights Foundation News
                  MojoNation Update
                  (Possible Mystery Ph.D.: Vna Tbyqoret)
   3:00 -  4:30 - Special Guest: Steven Levy, author of "CRYPTO"
   4:30 -  5:15 - Cindy Cohn, EFF: Update on the DVD/DeCSS Case
   5:15 -  6:00 - "Remembering Martin Minow"
   6:00 -  ?    - Dinner at a nearby restaurant usually follows the
                   meeting.

FULL INFO: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/2001/0113-SF.html>

................................. end here .................................




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com  Thu Jan 11 15:53:00 2001
From: MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com (MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:53:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: Add photos to your account and save.
Message-ID: <200101120551.BAA23057@localhost.localdomain>

Email subject: Add photos to your account and save.

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From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 11 17:17:22 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:17:22 -0500
Subject: heavy handed feebs fuck 16 year old kid
Message-ID: <3A5E5A75.4F38E7A9@mindspring.com>



Feds link boy, 16, and plot to 'take
              down Internet'

              Agents seize youth's computer equipment; family says it's
              all a misunderstanding

              Thursday, January 11, 2001

              By SCOTT SUNDE
              SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

              To the FBI, a Snohomish County teenager is a suspected
              cyberterrorist who planned to join others in unleashing a
              program that could "take down the Internet."

              Agents swooped in days before the program was to be
              tested, seizing computer equipment at the 16-year-old
              boy's home north of Lynnwood on Dec. 22.

              To the boy and his family, it's all a big
misunderstanding.
              The FBI is making far too much of a little computer
              noodling and adolescent boasting, they say.

              "They got it totally wrong," the boy complained
              yesterday.

              An FBI spokesman said yesterday the agency is working
              closely with prosecutors and can say little about the
              international case.

              The FBI has made no arrests so far in the United States,
              said Matt McLaughlin, a spokesman at the bureau's Los
              Angeles office.

              The investigation began in October, according to
              documents used to obtain a warrant to search the youth's
              Alderwood Manor home.

              DALNet, a San Diego company that provides Internet
              chat networks, contacted the FBI and complained that
              several computer users had begun attacks on it. The
              hackers caused computers to become disabled and denied
              other users access to DALNet, according to an affidavit
              by John Pi, a computer expert and FBI agent in Los
              Angeles.

              Investigators traced the user names of the alleged
              hackers, leading them to the 16-year-old and computer
              users in California, Michigan and Israel.

              In an interview yesterday, the boy said he used DALNet
              but didn't attack it.

              When an administrator there accused him of attacks, he
              said he "flooded her with messages. That's not illegal."

              A DALNet systems operator told the FBI last fall that a
              person using the user name "Booterror" had created a
              program that could "take down the Internet on New
              Year's Eve," Pi wrote in the affidavit.

              Booterror planned to send test versions of the program
              to other computer users by Dec. 25, with the intent of
              then spreading it world-wide, according to Pi.

              "That's totally invalid," the 16-year-old said yesterday.

              The teen acknowledged that his computer nickname is
              Booterror but said it is pronounced "Boot-Error."

              "Boot" is a common computer term used when a system
              comes online.

              The FBI agents raiding his home made it sound more
              sinister -- pronouncing it "Boo-Terror," he said.

              He said he tried to create a "Trojan," a program that can
              be sent out and used to control someone's computer. But
              he folded the project two months ago, he said.

              "I was just playing around and learning something. I was
              just going to make a small Trojan, and I just got caught
              up in this."

              He started working with computers and surfing the
              Internet two years ago, he said. He built his own
              computers.

              The youth had been attending a community college to
              earn the equivalent of a high school diploma. But he
              hasn't shown much interest in that or much of anything
              else since the FBI paid a call, the boyfriend of the boy's

              mother said.

              He said the boy is guilty only of getting a little
"mouthy"
              over the Internet. "He's just 16 years old. That's all it
was
              -- bragging. He had no intention of doing all that crap."

              But federal authorities and DALNet are serious about
              the investigation.

              The company's Web page provided a link this week to
              news reports from Israel, where police arrested four
              17-year-old hackers suspected of planning an attack on
              U.S. computer systems on New Year's Eve.

              DALNet said in a prepared statement that it is
              cooperating with the FBI and law enforcement outside
              the U.S. and "will continue to pursue all individuals
              responsible for attacks upon our systems."

            http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/hack11.shtml





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 11 20:19:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:19:39 -0800
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de> <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <a05010401b68435bf60ec@[207.111.241.45]>


At 12:26 AM +0100 1/12/01, Tom wrote:
>On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100, Tom wrote:
>>  a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
>>  (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
>>  exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
>>  kind of ammo they fire.
>
>current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
>version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
>anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
>find out.
>

Much information on the G36 is readily available on the Web. It is 
not actually very similar to the G3, except for the roller-delayed 
action used by HK in most of their semi-automatic rifles.

The caliber is, as per current NATO expectations, 5.56 mm.

I sent out a note entitle "More on the G3" this morning, but it has 
not yet, 8-9 hours later, appeared in my mailbox. Could be delays and 
glitches due to the storms hitting California today. If I don't see 
it in the next several hours, I'll send it out again.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From SGBvsLei at aol.com  Thu Jan 11 17:40:44 2001
From: SGBvsLei at aol.com (SGBvsLei at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:40:44 EST
Subject: sup
Message-ID: <c8.f445a75.278fba9c@aol.com>


i saw ur name somewhere on a board,... u were talking about NORTON YOUR EYES 
ONLY,.. i was wondering if u knew where i could get the US version or if u 
could send,... thanx,...

       >:)




From info at bacalao.net  Thu Jan 11 12:09:55 2001
From: info at bacalao.net (BACALAO.NET)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:09:55 +0100
Subject: Newsletter from Bacalao.Net
Message-ID: <200101112000.VAA30845@odin.mimer.no>


For Seafood offers, check out 

http://bacalao.net

This is a website where 

-producers
-traders
-importers
-exporters 

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Try it out - it is totally free of charge. 

If you register account you will also be able to use your company logo and product pictures while posting at the tradeboard.

If you want to unsubscribe from this list, please go to http://bacalao.net
Click 'join mailinglist'
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Best regards,
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From trutheye at trutheye.com  Thu Jan 11 21:22:27 2001
From: trutheye at trutheye.com (TruthEye Astrology)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:22:27 -0800
Subject: I SEE YOUR FUTURE...
Message-ID: <200101120019918.SM00178@localhost>


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From trutheye at trutheye.com  Thu Jan 11 21:25:28 2001
From: trutheye at trutheye.com (TruthEye Astrology)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:25:28 -0800
Subject: I SEE YOUR FUTURE...
Message-ID: <200101120022519.SM00178@localhost>


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From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Jan 11 18:42:00 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:42:00 -0500
Subject: Security Firm Signs Ex-CIA Director, Ex-Microsoft President to Board 
Message-ID: <8c734650d200e1cd9d046807a1499074@mixmaster.shinn.net>


Jhttp://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,21412,00.html
January 11, 2001 

Security Firm Signs Ex-CIA Director, Ex-Microsoft President to Board 
Advanced Biometrics says it will look to Robert Gates and Michael Hallman to help develop an infrared identification system. 
By Laura Rohde 

Advanced Biometrics Inc., or ABI, has added a couple of heavyweights to its board of directors: former CIA Director Robert Gates and former Microsoft President and COO Michael Hallman have joined the biometric technology company, it announced Thursday.

Both Gates and Hallman are joining the board, in part, to help guide the development of the ABI's biometric technology LiveGrip, which will be used to identify individuals for security purposes, the company said in two separate statements. LiveGrip identifies a person using infrared light to measure the substructure of a person's hand, the privately held, Washington state-based company said.

Gates, who had a 27-year career with the CIA and served as its director under George Bush, is being looked to for his expertise in security and intelligence issues, while Hallman, Microsoft's president from April 1990 to March 1992, would seek investment opportunities for LiveGrip, ABI said.

Laura Rohde writes for the IDG News Service. 






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 11 22:06:05 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:06:05 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
Message-ID: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]>



[Sent this morning, 1/11, to algebra.com address. Not received as of 
11 hours later. So am sending out to cyberpass.net address.]


At 1:12 PM +0100 1/11/01, Tom wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>  Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
>>
>>  It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
>>  used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
>>  standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
>>  selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
>>  reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
>>  pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
>>  gun).
>
>a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
>(he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
>exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
>kind of ammo they fire.

On Choate's point above, it is not FAL (a rifle, but I assume Choate 
must mean the maker of the FAL, Fabrique Nationale, now owned by 
another company, IIRC) who are making a caseless ammo rifle. Rather, 
it is in fact H-K. The G11 has been in development for close to 30 
years now.

(H-K are _also_ owned by another company. Last I heard, a British 
company bought H-K, though the factories and design groups remain in 
Germany.)

Most NATO countries have now adopted some variant of the 5.56 mm 
cartridge, in either M-16-type variants or in bullpup designs like 
the excellent Steyr AUG or the newer HK G36 (with a civilian model, 
the SL8). Neither the caseless ammo of the H-K G11 not the 
flechette-firing prototypes are getting wide acceptance.

And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again 
recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62 
mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at 
least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate 
like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say 
"See, I was RIGHT!")

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From adam at cypherspace.org  Thu Jan 11 20:09:55 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (adam at cypherspace.org)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:09:55 -0500
Subject: copy protecttion doesn't work (Re: MS Product Activation for Windows)
Message-ID: <200101120409.XAA02290@modemcable101.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



Ray Dillinger wrote:
> But if Microsoft and its ilk do in fact successfully create systems
> that prevent "piracy", it won't be possible to be a hypocrite about
> it any more.  And with commercial software flatly refusing some
> kinds of use, perhaps a fair number of people who now *think* they
> are not doing any piracy will have to face some harsh facts.

Well I think the main reason no one bothered to write a license number
generator for win9x, win2k and the windows NT versions is because the
inconvenience factor is low right now -- most people have some license
numbers lying around.  People typically use the same code on all the
machines on their network just for convenience.

(Well probably someone has in fact written a crack for the different
windows versions, but my point is no one has an incentive to use such
work-arounds, because the copy protect code is not too much of a
nuisance).

The second they introduce this anti-piracy measure -- if they actually
go through with it -- the copy protect code check will be broken, with
a patch to disable it, or a program to generate licenses.  Everyone
will use it whether they paid for the windows CD, got it free with
their machine, or copied the OS.

So pretty much the only effect they'll have is to inconvenience their
users, and probably as Ray suggests make more people have negative
feelings about copy protection mechanisms because of the extra
inconvenience.

Adam




From George at Orwellian.Org  Thu Jan 11 21:19:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:19:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Two items
Message-ID: <200101120519.AAA27114@www4.aa.psiweb.com>


(via Wired)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15982.html
#    
#    German police in Napster child porn probe By: Linda Harrison 
#    in New York Posted: 10/01/2001 at 21:14 GMT
#    
#    German police have launched a probe into whether Napster is being 
#    used to swap child porn on the Net.
#    
#    The investigation will also delve into other online file-swapping 
#    services such as Gnutella and MyNapster, and hopes to determine 
#    whether users have stored illegal material on their computers.

----

[ugh, comic relief]

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/11/nyregion/11STAT.html
#    
#    January 11, 2001 [snipped; NYS sued for more education funds for NYC]
#    
#    The New York State will soon require every graduate to pass
#    college preparatory Regents exams in English, math, social studies
#    and science.
#    
#    The Court of Appeals had earlier defined New York's constitutional
#    right to a "sound basic education" as learning the competence
#    to vote and serve on a jury.
#    
#    The plaintiffs, the Campaign for Fiscal Equity, argued that new
#    Regents standards do include the cognitive skills to analyze 
#    complex ballot propositions and weigh statistical and other 
#    technical evidence in jury trials.
#    
#    But, the Campaign showed, the state does not appropriate enough
#    money to meet those standards.
#    
#    The state's witnesses, paradoxically, denied that the state's
#    own Regents standards were needed.
#    
#    After all, they said, jurors with trouble weighing complex
#    evidence can always ask other jurors for help.
#    
#    Voters with only eighth-grade literacy can make up their minds
#    by watching television advertisements.
#    
#    One state witness implied that New York City voters might be
#    constitutionally entitled to less education than others, because
#    the city has so many television outlets to inform the less
#    literate.

Yabba-Dabba-Doo!




From tom at lemuria.org  Thu Jan 11 15:26:25 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:26:25 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>; from tom@ricardo.de on Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>


On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100, Tom wrote:
> a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> kind of ammo they fire.

current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
find out.


-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--




From grandvirtu.com at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 21:46:47 2001
From: grandvirtu.com at einstein.ssz.com (grandvirtu.com at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:46:47 -0500
Subject: I have tried them all........this one is for real....!
Message-ID: <200101120559.XAA21266@einstein.ssz.com>




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Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:46:55 -0500
Subject: I have tried them all........this one is for real....!
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Subject: !!!!!Attention DoveBid Customer!!!!!!
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From dutch9 at xs4all.nl  Thu Jan 11 18:30:08 2001
From: dutch9 at xs4all.nl (dutch9)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:30:08 +0100
Subject: subscibe mailinglist
Message-ID: <3A5E6C30.3709FBAA@xs4all.nl>







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 05:45:28 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:45:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Another Tim May attempt at changing history. "No, it wasn't ME that made
that claim, it was Choate!, yeah, that's it. Blaim it on Choate." It's as
lame as his 'Choate claimed Gauss' Law didn't apply' when in fact it was
Tim who made the claim. Don't answer the question, complain about the
quoting practice, or that it has an attachment, anything but participating
as an EQUAL in a dialectic.

Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93) 
class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.

He went on and on about the '3 means .223' and that this applied to ALL
HK weapons.

Check the archives. At one point I forwared a HK hompage asking him to explain 
the page. He never responded. Though he did continue the ad hominim.

The rest of the points, who didn't make the 'other G3' or who happens to
own HK today are his typical strawman argument techniques. Don't answer
the question, it might be unfomfortable.

As to people trying to paint life with broad strokes and ignoring the
distinctions is another typicall May'ism. He's always making comparisons
that are flawed because of some 'minor' point that Tim 'overlooked'. It's
'minor' because it usually blows a hole the size of a grayhound bus in
whatever crank anarchist idea he's had today (crack induced is a
supposition at best).

Tim's general approach (Declan's as well) is "if they disagree with me
they must be stupid". What you'll find is Tim making argument after
argument but he never defends them. When questioned he simply attacks the
questioner and hopes nobody notices he slipped the real point in the
dialectic. He's always claiming how easy it would be to destroy this
argument or that, but when it comes down to it Timmy always comes up
short. He NEVER participates. He's quick to lay the challenge down but
he's never delivered. A perfect example of intellectus interruptus.

Look at the free market/economic equilibrium debate. He's quick to refer
to Hayek, though never by particular quote that is verifiable. And when he
is faced with Hayek quotes to the contrary he attacks the messenger. He's
quick to suggest this or that book but when questioned he never has a
responce. Sometimes I doubt he actually reads them. Just puts them on the
shelf so he can be somebody.

His backstroke isn't any better today than yesterday. Tim believe he
should be able to dictate from on high and that he has zero responsiblity
to other people with respect to treating them with respect or
consideration, let alone responding to questions about his claims.

Come on Tim, show us the email wher I (not you) claim Gauss's Law doesn't
apply? Show us the email where I (not you) claim the G3 is not .308. Or
that ESS's are real, or how the economic equilibrium is achieved in the
bullshit anarchic free market. Etc., etc., etc.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> On Choate's point above, it is not FAL (a rifle, but I assume Choate 
> must mean the maker of the FAL, Fabrique Nationale, now owned by 
> another company, IIRC) who are making a caseless ammo rifle. Rather, 
> it is in fact H-K. The G11 has been in development for close to 30 
> years now.
> 
> (H-K are _also_ owned by another company. Last I heard, a British 
> company bought H-K, though the factories and design groups remain in 
> Germany.)
> 
> Most NATO countries have now adopted some variant of the 5.56 mm 
> cartridge, in either M-16-type variants or in bullpup designs like 
> the excellent Steyr AUG or the newer HK G36 (with a civilian model, 
> the SL8). Neither the caseless ammo of the H-K G11 not the 
> flechette-firing prototypes are getting wide acceptance.
> 
> And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again 
> recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62 
> mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at 
> least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate 
> like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say 
> "See, I was RIGHT!")

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 05:55:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:55:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <3A5F0592.1A2F3C41@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....

What makes 'your friend' an authority? Why should we take your word for
it? How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
friend in collusion?

How do we authenticate your friend (ie pk management)?

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> should be no problem getting an authoritative answer on that. I'll call
> my friend again this evening. he's been using that weapon for a couple
> of years, he should definitely know which rounds go with it. :)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jessicainf2 at spire.com  Fri Jan 12 00:32:36 2001
From: jessicainf2 at spire.com (jessicainf2 at spire.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:36 +0000
Subject: learn web design
Message-ID: <2ow8jw.orvl2m524p7e05f33@beverly.babit.com>


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From rwindrem at msn.com  Fri Jan 12 05:35:41 2001
From: rwindrem at msn.com (Robert Windrem)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:35:41 -0500
Subject: Rosman's NSA role
Message-ID: <000a01c07c9c$8fb7be60$0ca40318@union1.nj.home.com>

I am a producer for NBC Nightly News in New York.  In 1986, I spent several days in Rosman and nearby Asheville researching Rosman and shooting it from the ground and the air.  The ground level shooting was mostly fruitless, but I still have video I shot from a helicopter.

At the time, Rosman had 14 dishes in a bowl like area in Pisgah.  It was quite secret as the Sun notes.  However, the FAA never instituted any restrictions over the site, as it did with other sites.

We included it in a two part series we did in 1986 called "The Eavesdropping War"--NBC having refused to kill the story, as requested by then-NSA director William Odom.   Odom threatened legal action if we ran the piece.  They are particularly concerned about Rosman.

We determined that Rosman had several missions. 

 One was intercepting communications from Soviet geosynchronous satellites, the Gorizont and Raduga.  We were told interception had two values: 1. the satellites were used to communicate with Russian forces in Cuba and 2. they were also used to communicate with Soviet SS-20 sites in Europe...several of which were in East Germany. The farthest Raduga, as I recall, was at 14 degrees west, putting it in range of both Rosman and East Germany.  It should be noted that Rosman is almost due north of the old Soviet headquarters in Lourdes, Cuba, southwest of Havana. Lourdes, of course, is also the largest satellite sigint base in the Russian equivalent of Echeon, which I just wrote about for msnbc.com.  I was told that Rosman was used in part to capture signals being sent between Lourdes and the Soviet sigint downlink at Vatutinki outside Moscow.

The other mission was intercepting signals from the agent satellite network the Soviet Union maintained to communicate with its agents worldwide.  A crude version of Iridium, it contained eight satellites in low earth orbit.

The property was ceded to the DoD from the General Services Administration in December 1980, at the close of the Carter administration, on the same day another smaller NASA site outside of London was turned over to DoD.  

At the end of the Cold War, with the signing of the INF Treaty and lessened tensions, it was shut down and some of its equipment sent to the NSA base in Sebana Seca, P.R.

I hope this was helpful to you.  If you need to call, give me a ring at 1-800-NBC-NEWS, ext. 7390.


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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 09:14:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:14:40 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b684ebbd99c9@[207.111.241.25]>


At 7:55 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....
>
>What makes 'your friend' an authority? Why should we take your word for
>it? How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
>friend in collusion?
>

So, Jim Choate has evolved to the "Tom is a tentacle of Tim" stage of dementia.


Hilarious.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Jan 12 09:28:15 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:28:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: heavy handed feebs fuck 16 year old kid
In-Reply-To: <3A5E5A75.4F38E7A9@mindspring.com> from "Blank Frank" at Jan 11, 2001 08:17:22 PM
Message-ID: <200101121728.f0CHSFt32085@artifact.psychedelic.net>



>               DALNet, a San Diego company that provides Internet
>               chat networks, contacted the FBI and complained that
>               several computer users had begun attacks on it. The
>               hackers caused computers to become disabled and denied
>               other users access to DALNet, according to an affidavit
>               by John Pi, a computer expert and FBI agent in Los
>               Angeles.

I never knew Dalnet was a commercial entity, much less one that cooperates
with the FBI in screwing over its users. 

I wonder if their servers log the chat traffic and index it for jackbooted
thug convenience.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 09:29:18 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:29:18 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b684ec90cb41@[207.111.241.176]>


At 7:45 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
>rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
>When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93)
>class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
>IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
>lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
>hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.

Nonsense. I have known what a 91 and a 93 (and a 94) were for many 
years. Almost bought a 91 in 1975, _did_ buy a clone.

You still haven't responded to what I sent out after my own search of 
the archives:

At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>  Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
>>  From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>>  Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
>
>>   I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
>>  weapon.
>
>Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
>Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
>pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
>is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
>91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
>the H&K home page...


This speaks for itself, especially:

"Your wording above would indicate the
91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect"


In fact, the 91 *is* a .308 and the 93 *is* a different caliber.

Do you still dispute this?


>
>He went on and on about the '3 means .223' and that this applied to ALL
>HK weapons.


I said no such thing. Please produce the message.

>
>
>Tim's general approach (Declan's as well) is "if they disagree with me
>they must be stupid". What you'll find is Tim making argument after
>argument but he never defends them.

Actually, many of us have wasted far more time on your crankish ideas 
than they deserve.


>
>Come on Tim, show us the email wher I (not you) claim Gauss's Law doesn't
>apply? Show us the email where I (not you) claim the G3 is not .308.


For example, your claim: "Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought 
they do share a lot of commen base pieces) that is the sniper rifle."

The 93 is a .223, not a .308, and it is _not_ the sniper rifle. 
Further, your phrase "G3 not the 91" shows your basic confusion. The 
G3 is the military version of the 91, not of the 93.

Trivial points, in some sense, but deeply illustrative of your mania 
for stating something that is incorrect and then never admitting your 
mistake, even years later.

Which is why even your co-workers acknowledge your crankishness.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 09:31:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:31:59 -0800
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010402b684efb8892f@[207.111.241.176]>


At 11:54 AM -0500 1/12/01, John Young wrote:
>One of the Tempest FOIA docs NSA released recently
>concerns NONSTOP, a term whose definition is classified
>as SECRET. About half of the document, NACSEM 5112,
>"NONSTOP Evaluation  Techniques," has been redacted,
>and we'll publish it soon.
>
>>From the clear text, NONSTOP appears to refer to
>protection against compromising emanations of cryptographic
>systems, and maybe in particular radio crypto systems.
>
>Another document refers to NONSTOP testing and protection
>being especially needed on vehicles, planes and ships.
>
>We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
>the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text
>below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on
>what NONSTOP means.

The Tandem Computers "NONSTOP" was a product line in use by various 
government agencies for secure (fault-tolerant) computing for a long 
time. I'd look there for starters.


--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Fri Jan 12 09:54:37 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:54:37 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C5F@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Jan 12 01:57:15 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 12 Jan 2001 09:57:15 -0000
Subject: Idea for tamper-resistant PC hardware
Message-ID: <20010112095715.3159.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



Here's something I would like to see: a harddrive that is
tamper-resistant.  The threat model is a server is deployed in an
untrusted machineroom, and recovery of plaintext from the system is
unacceptable.  One obvious attack, involving an encrypted hard drive,
is for the attackers to have a "power failure" and then remove the
encrypted hard drive from the server, and reinstall it in an
"instrumented" server which can recover key data.  I want to defeat
that attack.

One obvious way to do that would be to have a bunch of thermite, or
explosives, or whatever that trigger when the thing is tampered with.
That's fine, but as a general rule, if the solution to the problem
requires explosives, I would rather try to find a different problem.

So here's another solution.  The hard drive itself is encrypted, and
the encryption/decryption hardware is part of the hard drive chips,
and all are mounted within a tamper-resistant enclosure.  Also mounted
in this enclosure is a little battery which will last for the lifetime
of the harddrive, and a large-enough capacitor.  When the enclosure is
tampered with, the capacitor sends a jolt through the chip that holds
the encryption key.  This jolt is big enough to melt the silicon, so
no key bits could be recovered (this would not require much of a jolt,
I would think).  Then the attacker would have the hard drive, but no
way to decrypt it.  Obviously, it would need sensors to detect
tampering with the case, and tricks liking freezing the thing, using
radiation, whatever.

This allows us to have data be permenantly destroyed, and the hard
drive permenantly deactivated, without doing any crazy stuff involving
pyrotechnics which looks bad in the media.  "The computer exploded,
injuring the thieves" looks much worse than "The thieves tripped a
safety mechanism and were unable to recover any data from the
computer."  It would also allow everyhting to be done in a
normal-looking PC case.

So the total solution would be a computer case with sensors which
trigger the capacitor in the hard drive, and also sensors in the hard
drive enclosure which trigger destruction of the key.

It seems like this wouldn't be such a complicated thing to implement.
Any thoughts on this?




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Jan 12 07:03:23 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:03:23 -0500
Subject: Rosman's NSA role
In-Reply-To: <000a01c07c9c$8fb7be60$0ca40318@union1.nj.home.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEGKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


American federation of scientists maintain a list of facilities at the link
below.  The analysis looks pretty good to me.  Interesting point: there is a
limit to which satellites could be monitored from the area...for example I
believe european satellites and asian satellites are outside of 'view'
because of the curvature of the earth.  Could perhaps be pointed south and
at intra USA birds?
http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/nsafacil.html

pz
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Robert Windrem
  Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 8:36 AM
  To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
  Subject: Rosman's NSA role


  I am a producer for NBC Nightly News in New York.  In 1986, I spent
several days in Rosman and nearby Asheville researching Rosman and shooting
it from the ground and the air.  The ground level shooting was mostly
fruitless, but I still have video I shot from a helicopter.

  At the time, Rosman had 14 dishes in a bowl like area in Pisgah.  It was
quite secret as the Sun notes.  However, the FAA never instituted any
restrictions over the site, as it did with other sites.

  We included it in a two part series we did in 1986 called "The
Eavesdropping War"--NBC having refused to kill the story, as requested by
then-NSA director William Odom.   Odom threatened legal action if we ran the
piece.  They are particularly concerned about Rosman.

  We determined that Rosman had several missions.

   One was intercepting communications from Soviet geosynchronous
satellites, the Gorizont and Raduga.  We were told interception had two
values: 1. the satellites were used to communicate with Russian forces in
Cuba and 2. they were also used to communicate with Soviet SS-20 sites in
Europe...several of which were in East Germany. The farthest Raduga, as I
recall, was at 14 degrees west, putting it in range of both Rosman and East
Germany.  It should be noted that Rosman is almost due north of the old
Soviet headquarters in Lourdes, Cuba, southwest of Havana. Lourdes, of
course, is also the largest satellite sigint base in the Russian equivalent
of Echeon, which I just wrote about for msnbc.com.  I was told that Rosman
was used in part to capture signals being sent between Lourdes and the
Soviet sigint downlink at Vatutinki outside Moscow.

  The other mission was intercepting signals from the agent satellite
network the Soviet Union maintained to communicate with its agents
worldwide.  A crude version of Iridium, it contained eight satellites in low
earth orbit.

  The property was ceded to the DoD from the General Services Administration
in December 1980, at the close of the Carter administration, on the same day
another smaller NASA site outside of London was turned over to DoD.

  At the end of the Cold War, with the signing of the INF Treaty and
lessened tensions, it was shut down and some of its equipment sent to the
NSA base in Sebana Seca, P.R.

  I hope this was helpful to you.  If you need to call, give me a ring at
1-800-NBC-NEWS, ext. 7390.


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From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 12 07:10:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:10:04 -0500
Subject: DoJ publishes cybercrime manual, how much power cops have
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010112100930.00a23580@mail.well.com>



*******
See: http://www.cybercrime.gov/searchmanual.htm
*******

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41133,00.html

    The Feds'll Come A-Snoopin'
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Jan. 12, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON -- Ever wonder how much leeway federal agents have when
    snooping through your e-mail or computer files?

    The short answer: a lot.

    The U.S. Department of Justice this week published new guidelines for
    police and prosecutors in cases involving computer crimes.

    The 500 KB document includes a bevy of recent court cases and covers
    new topics such as encryption, PDAs and secret searches.

    It updates a 1994 manual, which the Electronic Privacy Information
    Center had to file a Freedom of Information Act request to obtain. No
    need to take such drastic steps this time: The Justice Department has
    placed the report on its cybercrime.gov site.

    PAGERS VS. PDAs: Anyone who's arrested will likely be patted down for
    guns, contraband and electronic devices.

    So be sure to yank the batteries if you're about to be nabbed. During
    an arrest, cops can scroll through the information on your pager
    without a warrant.

    What about PDAs? The latest word, oddly enough, might be a 1973
    Supreme Court case, United States v. Robinson, that permitted police
    officers to conduct searches of an arrestee's possessions. Lower
    courts have extended this rule to include pagers.

    But PDAs more closely resemble computers in processing speed and
    storage capacity.

    Concludes the DOJ: "Courts have not yet addressed whether Robinson
    will permit warrantless searches of electronic storage devices that
    contain more information than pagers. If agents can examine the
    contents of wallets, address books and briefcases without a warrant,
    it could be argued that they should be able to search their electronic
    counterparts (such as electronic organizers, floppy disks and Palm
    Pilots) as well."

    Not everyone agrees that an arrest can lead to a full search. "The
    search incident to arrest is less settled," says Jennifer Granick, a
    San Francisco attorney specializing in computer crime law.

    [...]

    "NO KNOCK" SEARCHES: Conservative activists may hate this, but "no
    knock" searches, where Kevlar-clad goons toting M-16s break through
    your front door without warning, aren't going away. If anything, the
    Justice Department seems to think they're even more necessary when
    dealing with computer crimes.

    "Technically adept computer hackers have been known to use 'hot keys,'
    computer programs that destroy evidence when a special button is
    pressed. If agents knock at the door to announce their search, the
    suspect can simply press the button and activate the program to
    destroy the evidence," the manual says.

    It doesn't end there: The Justice Department cites a 1997 case,
    Richards v. Wisconsin, in which the Supreme Court said agents can
    conduct a no knock search even if the judge granting the warrant
    didn't approve one. That's allowed when agents have a "reasonable
    suspicion" that the subject of the search could destroy evidence or
    obstruct the investigation.

    [...] 




From tom at lemuria.org  Fri Jan 12 01:46:08 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:46:08 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
Message-ID: <20010112104607.A20444@lemuria.org>


> a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> kind of ammo they fire.

current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
find out.


-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--



----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jan 12 08:04:19 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:04:19 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a
  Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110162653.047a5bf0@popserver.panix.com>


At 11:29 AM 1/10/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
>*aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
>up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
>colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army.

The British colonial possessions discussed in the article are, indeed, tax 
havens and have been described as such by every writer on the topic from 
the flakiest up to the Economist Intelligence Unit 
http://store.eiu.com/description/M727des.asp.

Red Tony's attempt to corral his colonies has been going on for a few years 
now.  The OECD has gotten into the act with its Financial Action Task Force 
(http://www.oecd.org/fatf/) handling Money Laundering and the OECD, itself, 
http://www.oecd.org/daf/fa/harm_tax/harmtax.htm handling what it calls 
"Harmful Tax Practices".  By the latter, it means evil countries that set 
their taxes too low.  It does not mean the harm involved in tax collection 
itself.

The Barbados meeting http://www.oecd.org/media/release/nw00-123a.htm was 
co-sponsored by the Commonwealth (formerly the British Commonwealth).  They 
released a hopeful closing statement of agreement and cooperation 
but  nothing is likely to come of it since the world's largest tax haven 
(the US) is never the subject of these talks.

After watching these activities since shortly after the US government 
started to crack down on trusts back in 1962, I have learned to ignore what 
governments say and watch what they (and the market) actually do.

More important than bank secrecy itself is the ability to easily create 
legal entities.  One of the reason that the US is a popular tax haven (for 
non-US persons) is because it is so easy to create various business and 
personal entities here.

The Net have only made things worse.  With a dozen P2P payment 
intermediaries created in the last 18 months or so and hundreds of online 
securities brokerages, it's rough for the control forces.

DCF

----
"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold 
justice and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of 
confidentiality, trust and basic decency between the banks and their 
clients."  Imelda Marcos' Prayer for the Swiss Banks - Manila - Sunday 25 
February 1996.




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Fri Jan 12 09:30:15 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:30:15 -0600
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <17301555316454@cyber2.powernet.org>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 12 08:32:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:32:47 -0500
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:45:28AM -0600
References: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010112113247.A19339@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:45:28AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Tim's general approach (Declan's as well) is "if they disagree with me
> they must be stupid". What you'll find is Tim making argument after

And you know what? We're usually right. :)

-Declan




From bf at farc.org  Fri Jan 12 08:39:43 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:39:43 -0500
Subject: SGBvsLei@aol.com 
Message-ID: <3A5F3322.CFF55736@farc.org>


At 08:52 PM 1/11/01 -0500, SGBvsLei at aol.com wrote:
>i saw ur name somewhere on a board,... u were talking about NORTON YOUR
EYES
>ONLY,.. i was wondering if u knew where i could get the US version or
if u
>could send,... thanx,...

Soliciting to steal software?  We've contacted the BSA and AOL.  Expect
a visit at home sometime soon.  You *do* have licenses for what's on
your hard drive, don't
you?

Chump.






From mnoche at usa.net  Fri Jan 12 10:40:41 2001
From: mnoche at usa.net (Mar�a Noche)
Date: 12 Jan 2001 11:40:41 MST
Subject: P.A.T.
Message-ID: <20010112184041.5530.qmail@nwcst319.netaddress.usa.net>


Dear Sirs,

We are a battery distributor company wide established in the Spanish territory
and we are interested in marketing a portable Alcohol tester, accurate and
lightweight, as the most important features.

We will be very pleased if you could send by answering to this e-mail more
information of your products, prices as well as pictures of them.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon,

M.Noche
Sales Mgr.

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jan 12 08:54:50 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:54:50 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
Message-ID: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


One of the Tempest FOIA docs NSA released recently 
concerns NONSTOP, a term whose definition is classified
as SECRET. About half of the document, NACSEM 5112, 
"NONSTOP Evaluation  Techniques," has been redacted,
and we'll publish it soon.

>From the clear text, NONSTOP appears to refer to 
protection against compromising emanations of cryptographic 
systems, and maybe in particular radio crypto systems.

Another document refers to NONSTOP testing and protection
being especially needed on vehicles, planes and ships.

We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text 
below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on 
what NONSTOP means. Joel McNamara has been searching
for NONSTOP info for some time: 

   http://eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html

We would also like to learn more about covert surveillance
by "resonance" technology. Peter Wright, in Spycatcher,
provides most interesting anecdotes about this. He writes
of remotely "radiating" specially-designed objects in a space 
to pick up signals, and tells of several covert operations
in which MI5 used this method.

Wright also describes the use of supersensitive microphones
to pick up the daily setting of rotors on cryptomachines of the 
time, in particular the Hagelins made by CryptoAG.

This loops back to NONSTOP and the question of what may 
be the signatures and compromising emanations of today's 
cryptosystems which reveal information in ways that go beyond 
known sniffers -- indeed, that known sniffers may divertingly 
camouflage. 

Along this line I mention for the nth time that the National Academy
of Science 1996 CRYPTO report, which advocated loosening 
crypto controls, also recommended increased funding for other 
surveillance technologies that have never been identified, although 
Carnivore may be one such, along with keyboard sniffers and who 
knows what else that has been passed to domestic law enforcement 
by the intelligence agencies to crack crypto protection.





From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 08:59:17 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:59:17 -0500
Subject: Idea for tamper-resistant PC hardware
In-Reply-To: <20010112095715.3159.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112085354.007e49a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:09 AM 1/12/01 -0500, drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
>So here's another solution.  The hard drive itself is encrypted, and
>the encryption/decryption hardware is part of the hard drive chips,
>and all are mounted within a tamper-resistant enclosure.  Also mounted
>in this enclosure is a little battery which will last for the lifetime
>of the harddrive, and a large-enough capacitor.  When the enclosure is
>tampered with, the capacitor sends a jolt through the chip that holds
>the encryption key.  This jolt is big enough to melt the silicon, so
>no key bits could be recovered (this would not require much of a jolt,
>I would think).  Then the attacker would have the hard drive, but no
>way to decrypt it.  Obviously, it would need sensors to detect
>tampering with the case, and tricks liking freezing the thing, using
>radiation, whatever.

That is how its done.  Tamper detect can look for voltages, freqs, 
temps out of range, pressure changes, acceleration, mechanical intrustion,
etc.  If you see tampering, you zeroize your key, your disk is suddently
filled with useless noise.  

There is a patent on thermite-like pastes you can build into a chip, which
helps against reverse engineering the circuitry, post-mortem.  For you,
simple zeroizing will probably be enough; though see the work on remenance
in RAMs for caveats.

>This allows us to have data be permenantly destroyed, and the hard
>drive permenantly deactivated, without doing any crazy stuff involving
>pyrotechnics which looks bad in the media.  

Worse than looking bad, you can't take energetic materials
on airplanes.

Check the archives, this gets discussed periodically, and there
are commercial tamper-resistant/detecting modules out there.

dh




 






  








From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Jan 12 09:07:41 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:07:41 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a  Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110162653.047a5bf0@popserver.panix.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNICEGMCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Just to add an interesting experience to this thread, I've flown to Bermuda
and to the Cayman Islands (not an attractive place, but great diving).  On
the flight to Bermuda the in-flight magazine had several articles discussing
Bermuda's aggressive moves against being a tax haven.  Saw the same kinds of
articles in the magazines while on the beach there.

In stark contrast, the in-flight magazine to the Caymans had several large
advertisements and one govt.-sponsored article promoting the fact that
banking transactions of less than $50,000 (per transaction) are never
reported to law enforcement inquiries unless it has been adquately proven
that the transaction was the result of a drug deal.  Other advertisements
stated the cost of starting a bank (as little as $5K if I remember
correctly) and of starting a private holding company (a little more than
starting your own bank).

Interestingly none of these islands/countries have the SA (societe anonamie
(sp?)) laws of French islands.  An SA company by definition never reveals
the board members, officers, founders, etc.

pz

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Duncan Frissell
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 11:04 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Re: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
Boomlet



At 11:29 AM 1/10/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
>*aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
>up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
>colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army.

The British colonial possessions discussed in the article are, indeed, tax
havens and have been described as such by every writer on the topic from
the flakiest up to the Economist Intelligence Unit
http://store.eiu.com/description/M727des.asp.

Red Tony's attempt to corral his colonies has been going on for a few years
now.  The OECD has gotten into the act with its Financial Action Task Force
(http://www.oecd.org/fatf/) handling Money Laundering and the OECD, itself,
http://www.oecd.org/daf/fa/harm_tax/harmtax.htm handling what it calls
"Harmful Tax Practices".  By the latter, it means evil countries that set
their taxes too low.  It does not mean the harm involved in tax collection
itself.

The Barbados meeting http://www.oecd.org/media/release/nw00-123a.htm was
co-sponsored by the Commonwealth (formerly the British Commonwealth).  They
released a hopeful closing statement of agreement and cooperation
but  nothing is likely to come of it since the world's largest tax haven
(the US) is never the subject of these talks.

After watching these activities since shortly after the US government
started to crack down on trusts back in 1962, I have learned to ignore what
governments say and watch what they (and the market) actually do.

More important than bank secrecy itself is the ability to easily create
legal entities.  One of the reason that the US is a popular tax haven (for
non-US persons) is because it is so easy to create various business and
personal entities here.

The Net have only made things worse.  With a dozen P2P payment
intermediaries created in the last 18 months or so and hundreds of online
securities brokerages, it's rough for the control forces.

DCF

----
"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold
justice and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of
confidentiality, trust and basic decency between the banks and their
clients."  Imelda Marcos' Prayer for the Swiss Banks - Manila - Sunday 25
February 1996.





From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Fri Jan 12 09:46:37 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:46:37 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF442D6@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Jan 12 10:27:41 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:27:41 -0500
Subject: Idea for tamper-resistant PC hardware
Message-ID: <3A5F4D80.F654222D@lsil.com>


I guess if your critical server is simply some sort of service provider
and the only data requiring security are the operating keys then your
hostile location is OK since rebuilding a system and restoring a few
keys ( which can be hidden just about anywhere ) is easily done.
Otherwise the loss of the data could be costly. 

If your data is static then it would be relatively easy to stash a copy
somewhere. If your data is dynamic then backups are necessary. Backups
can be tracked to their resting place. So their location needs to be (
physically and legally ) secure from the threat(s). Unless you can
readily hand carry the backups to the secure storage area it will need
to be connected in which case you might as well locate your server there
in the first place.





From socio at getyourcasino.com  Fri Jan 12 12:01:19 2001
From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:01:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Alianza Estrategica
Message-ID: <20010112200119.560F712801@ns.luckyscasino.com>

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From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 05:16:02 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:16:02 +0100
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEFNCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <3A5F0392.A2D69EB@ricardo.de>


"Phillip H. Zakas" wrote:
> I do agree with you that in general most people are concerned with their own
> day-to-day lives and cannot or don't care to understand how decisions made
> in Europe or in Washington, DC regarding the internet do, or could, affect
> themselves or those they know. 

right. an organization that helps them to find others of like mind and
can provide them with information and other help on making themselves
heard would be good. an organization that has an agenda of it's own to
push would not be good.

simple as that. just lowering the "barriers of entry" to the lobby
market.




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 05:22:27 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:22:27 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
	 <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de> <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org> <a05010401b68435bf60ec@[207.111.241.45]>
Message-ID: <3A5F0513.23A30ED1@ricardo.de>


Tim May wrote:
> >current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
> >version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
> >anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
> >find out.
> >
> 
> Much information on the G36 is readily available on the Web. It is
> not actually very similar to the G3, except for the roller-delayed
> action used by HK in most of their semi-automatic rifles.
> 
> The caliber is, as per current NATO expectations, 5.56 mm.

thanks for the update. I'm not much into weapons, so I only got the
model number and from there concluded - obviously wrong - that it was
based on the G3.




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 05:24:34 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:24:34 +0100
Subject: More on G3s
References: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]>
Message-ID: <3A5F0592.1A2F3C41@ricardo.de>


Tim May wrote:
> And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again
> recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62
> mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at
> least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate
> like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say
> "See, I was RIGHT!")

should be no problem getting an authoritative answer on that. I'll call
my friend again this evening. he's been using that weapon for a couple
of years, he should definitely know which rounds go with it. :)




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Jan 12 14:56:10 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:56:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101121427410.4561-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Are there any good general cryptographic protocols for groups 
taking group actions by formal consensus or voting rules?

I'm thinking of a "distributed agent" that is empowered to do 
various things but which is activated only by a vote of its 
owners.  This would be like a "Robo-moderator" for a newsgroup, 
or a "Robo-Personnel Administrator" for a company's Board of 
directors, or a "Robo-Rater" for a restaurant rating website, 
or....

Crucial facts about a protocol that does the right thing would be: 

1) DOES NOT create any single priveleged user or machine. 

2) Resistant to denial-of-service attacks and attempts to 
   "stack the vote." (Requires user authentication)

3) No altered versions of the agent ought to be able to gather
   enough information to force an action as long as at least 
   the majority of agents are unaltered.

4) Once a consensus is reached, a majority of the agents acting
   together should be able to take whatever action is found
   even if the dissenters' agents don't cooperate with them.
   (a consensus reassembles a key?  But then that key can't 
   be used again, what's the next key?)

				Bear








From Dialpad-att at hotel.Opt-InEmail.com  Fri Jan 12 15:01:11 2001
From: Dialpad-att at hotel.Opt-InEmail.com (Dialpad.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE Cell Phone With AT&T Wireless
Message-ID: <200101122301.PAA20851@cyberpass.net>

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From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 06:46:04 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:46:04 +0100
Subject: More on G3s
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5F18AC.80F15074@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....

ok, so let's play the game and assume you're not just trolling:

> What makes 'your friend' an authority? 

he had the weapon in question in hand pretty much every day for several
years. he trained new recruits on it. I bet he can disassemble, clean
and reassemble it blindfolded. is that enough authority to answer a
simple question on ammunition?


> Why should we take your word for it? 

because I have nothing to gain by stating anything false, while I do
have reputation capital to gain by making truthful statements based on
actual research.


> How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
> friend in collusion?

you are free to come over to germany and verify my existence in person.
in addition, I've been too long on this list to be a prank for this
unimportant issue. third, you can make a call to my company and ask to
be connected to me. ricardo.de happens to be a little too large for tim
to buy up just to create a fake account.


> How do we authenticate your friend (ie pk management)?

web-of-trust. I will authenticate my friend by having a face-to-face
meeting. you can authenticate my words via PGP if you want to, I can
sign the mail. which leaves only me as a possible instance of
introducing false facts, and that point has been answered above.

now as to how to authenticate whether or not my friend is what I claim
he is - well, I'm sure he has the appropriate documents that could be
checked for forgery, etc. if you insist (and pay the costs) that could
surely be arranged.




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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Jan 12 14:40:05 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:40:05 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


John Young wrote:
> We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
> the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text
> below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on
> what NONSTOP means. Joel McNamara has been searching
> for NONSTOP info for some time:
> 

    I happen to admin a Tandem "NonStop" K-200. Not sure how truly
secure they are, but from my experience I'd say it's more security thru
obscurity than anything else, i.e., almost nobody has any knowledge or
experience with the OS, unlike unix and windoze, so info doesn't get
shared around, etc. The OS is Guardian and is extremely primitive. They
don't run C or anything else known to mankind. Well, there is know a
"unix shell" that runs on top of Guardian, with an extremely limited
command set and functionality, which does allow C code to run, but it's
not accessing low-level stuff, no hardware calls, etc. 
     Tandem was/is used mostly in banks and the like. The "nonstop" is a
bit of a joke, really -- yes, the hardware is robust, everything is
hot-swapable, but the software (at least ours) crashes a lot. You could
have a much better and more robust system with a unix cluster. 
    And of course, Tandem was a dead horse on the verge of bankruptcy
when it was bought by Compaq, about the same time Compaq bought DEC. So
now they've got Tandem "NonStop" servers which run the DEC Alpha
processors and unix. I'm sure Compaq will kill off the old Tandem line
as soon as they can, just like they are with the DEC Vaxes. Support,
yes, but no further development. 
    So the bottom line here is this -- I'd really rather doubt that the
NONSTOP referred to above has anything to do with Tandems. Certainly
they aren't running Tandem stuff on planes and vehicles -- this is heavy
iron -- and if the fedz are depending upon anything as primitive as the
Tandem OS to protect secrets, I pity them. 



-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From gene at gene-haldeman.com  Fri Jan 12 14:56:28 2001
From: gene at gene-haldeman.com (Gene N Haldeman)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:56:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Dell, Unisys and Microsoft -- DUMvoting 1.0!
Message-ID: <mailman.352.1576007489.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

"This Message Can Not Be Considered Spam, Even Though It Is.  
Some Law That Never Was Enacted Says So."

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============================================================================
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Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bf at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 12 15:13:14 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:13:14 -0500
Subject: Crypto sci fi: The Talking Kit
Message-ID: <3A5F8EE5.613A00BD@mindspring.com>



Mary tried to ignore the sobbing of her sister in the next room.  It
had been two days since They came to her village and she was still in
shock.  Two days is the minimum time to wait, Alex had said, before
Talking.  Alex was the fellow from the Engineers Sans Frontiers who
had given her the Kit.  This was not first time she had to use it, but
it was over a year ago... she tried not to remember.

The ESF had come into her wartorn country, as they always did
whereever they saw the poverty that follows tyranny.  The Engineers,
Mary had heard, got their money from some anonymous group of
California Norte businessmen, from that place they called
Sallay-Vallay, but Mary knew little of such distant things.  They had
the geopolitical immunity of the Red Circle or Docteurs Sans Frontiers
agencies but were more like the Corps of Engineers.

The ESF had come to build (or rather, repair) the roads into the
villages.  This was permitted by the Rulers, it was after all free
help.  They could set up  generators but that was about all that the
Rulers wanted the peasants to have.  There were not enough trusted
police to monitor all the calls if every village had phones, after
all.

Besides the bulldozers, chainsaws, and other machinery for turning
jungle into road, the ESF brought equiptment that let them stay in
touch with their headquarters.  They had some kind of telephones, that
didn't need wires.  But their communications were as controlled as the
peasants.  Armed soldiers loitered around the engineers' base and kept
an ear towards the phone station.  The ESF were guests of the Rulers,
dismissable at their whims.  Much like the Soldiers dismissed
peasants in night raids, only with less permenance.

.......


During her regular chores, Mary snuck out to The Place where she had
buried It.  Under the jungle mould was an olive drab case that she
brushed off and lifted out onto the ground.  She unlatched it and took
out the metal box within.  Then she put the waterproof case back under
cover.  She moved away from that site, taking the metal box.

Sitting down, she took a key from around her neck and unlocked it.
Inside was a pocket-sized computer, a solar panel and some batteries,
and a small tin that originally held mints but now had electronics
inside and a pair of buttons and LEDs outside. There were some other
cables in there too.

Mary knew none of these words, indeed she could not read or write.
But Alex had explained to her how to use it, and made her demonstrate
what he had taught until she was confident.

Mary slid the little black stone on the side of the larger, silvery
slab with the shiny window.  It beeped, lit up, then pictures appeared
in the glowing window.  A little blue line at the bottom of the window
was  most of the width of the window, which was good: it
meant she wouldn't need to fill up the little yellow cylinders, which
took a day.  You had to put the cylinders into metal holders in the
back of the blue plate and then leave the plate in the sun for a day.
Blue side up.  And the cylinders had to be pointed the right way, though

there were little pictures near the holders to show you ---the
cylinders had a nipple on one end and were flat on the other.  The
ends had different markings, too, one like the cross worn by the
missionaries who occasionally visited, and one a single line.

It was also possible to make fuel by turning the handle of a little
gadget that Mary had seen, which was good because you didn't have to
wait for the sun, but she didn't have one of those.  One of her
neighbors had a radio that worked with such a handle; turning the
handle for a minute would play about half an hour's worth of music
from the one station that they could hear.  You could see inside this
radio, and there was a coiled spring in there, and it rapidly turned the

shaft of something that actually made the fuel for the cylinders.
Turning the handle coiled the spring, which then turned the
fuel-maker.  How spinning a shaft could make fuel was beyond Mary's
comprehension, but it worked.  The missionaries had been impressed by
Mary's ability to turn fur into fine thread with a spinning shaft, but
you could *see* that; making radio-fuel by spinning was invisible.
That radio had also been a gift from another fellow with the ESR.

The little window now showed a padlock, which told Mary that the box
had checked itself over and was healthy.  She also looked at the sides
of the box, and saw that the wax along its sides was unscratched.  It
wasn't wax exactly, it was wax that hardened into stone, "metal poxxi"
Alex had called it.  It made it very difficult to open the window-box
(except for where you put the cylinders into it), and nearly
impossible to open and put back together without it being evident.
But no one had found the buried case or opened the locked tin or
changed the insides of the window-box.  Alex had explained that she
was trusting the box to protect her secrets, and that if someone
tampered with it it might tell them.  Mary buried these gifts well when
she could not have them with her directly.

Mary studied the box in her hands.  The green thunderbolt of the ESF
was blinking in the window now.  She touched it, and recited a phrase
which she had spoken to the box when Alex had made the box "hers".
Alex had said to memorize that phrase, and tell no one.  And to speak
it only to the box, and only when you are alone with the box.  The
phrase itself made little sense, it was a rhyme her daughter had come
up with when she was younger.  The box, for its part, seemed to know
her voice, because she had to repeat here rhyme a few times when she
had that bad cold.  After a moment, the box chimed and flashed a
picture of Alex as a way of greeting her, then presented several
pictures.

She touched the picture of someone talking.  This caused the scene in
the window to change, presenting her with two little colored squares.
One of them would make the box remember what she said; the other went
back to the first set of window pictures.  Mary touched the first
square and began talking.  When she talked louder, the square was
brighter, and when she spoke softer, it was dim.  Finally she stopped
talking, and after a few seconds the box knew she was done.

Now the box showed her arrows which she knew let her listen to her
message, and decide to send it, save it, or forget it.

She listened to a few seconds of it to make sure it worked. She didn't
think she sounded like the voice she heard, but Alex had said that you
hear yourself differently, and the voice from the box was saying, in
her language, what she had just said.  She wiped away a tear, for she
had described what They had done to her sister's village.

....

Mary put the computer in one pocket, then remembered that the she had
to check that some of the cylinders had fuel for the tin.  Again, the
cylinders had to point in the right direction, but there were pictures
showing how.  She put some into the holders on the bottom of the tin
and pressed a red protrustion, which caused a red light to
light.  When she stopped pressing, the light went off.  This meant
that the tin had fuel too.  She put the tin, with cylinders still in
their holders, into a pocket on the other side, and trudged off
further into the forest.

Now she had to find one of the wires.

........

Which had she used before?  The one by the East Hill she remembered,
so this time she would go right at the Big Rock and use the wire on
the West Hill.  Alex had explained that when you use a wire, everyone
can hear you, so its important to use different wires and different
times, so anyone who'se trying to find you has a harder time of it.

........

She rested after she found the tree with the wire.  She ate some hard
bread
and cheese, and her mind drifted to the story Alex had told her.  The
window-box remembers what you said to it.  It makes what you said
"smaller" and hides it in a krypt ---the missionaries had mentioned
krypts, they apparently kept corpses in them, something that disgusted
her, but these were strangers, from far away, after all.  Maybe they
didn't have wood to burn to purify the bodies, so they *stored*
them... ick.  So the window box, picking up the train of thought,
takes my voice, shrinks it, hides it, then tells it to the tin...

Mary jerked, realizing that she might have forgotten to bring the
cables, but she had grabbed them without realizing it, they were in
the same pocket as the tin.  She didn't want to have to make the trip
out to the wire twice.

The tin uses the wire to shout my hidden voice, she mused.  How
ironic, They try to keep us silent, so we are forced to shout ---with
hidden voices.

And Alex, miles away, was able to hear the inaudible shout, unhide it,
and pass it on.  It was like the radio Mary's neighbor had, she
realized, only the radio shout was not hidden.  Alex had explained
that even if They were listening, they would not hear her voice on
their radios.

And while Mary could only talk to Alex, Alex explained that he could
talk (and write!) to people far away.  Many people; and all their
conversations could be private.  Mary didn't see how this was
possible, her Talker only worked with Alex in the field camp, but
that's all she needed and Alex said it made it easier to use if it
worked this way.

Mary pressed the red button again, and the light indicated the
batteries hadn't dislodged.  She found one cable and plugged one end
into the tin, attached the other to the wire which went up into the
tree.  Then she took another cable and connected the window box to the
tin.  The ends of the cables had different shapes and there was only
one way to fit them together.

Ok, now she was ready to shout.  She pressed a different, green button
on the tin, which caused a green light to glow.  This button stayed
pushed-in when she took her fingers away.

Then she went to the window-box, and found the picture of the letter.
She tapped this twice, and a picture of two gears turning was animated
on the screen.  There was also a short line displayed, which grew as
minutes passed.  This was like the fuel-line, the longer the line the
more voice had been shouted.  In fact, as Mary waited, she saw the
fuel-line shrink.

But the gears stopped and the picture changed back to the green
thunderbolt.  This meant that her voice had been sent.  She hoped Alex
would listen to it soon, because it was urgent.  She knew that Alex
didn't have to be listening, that his window-box would hold her voice
for him like it held it during the jungle-walk to the wire.

She pressed the green button again and the glow stopped.  She then
moved the stone on the window box and its window darkened.  Pulling
the cables loose, she slipped them into her pocket, hid the end of the
wire, and departed.



......

A lot had happened.  Their had been more fighting, and distant flashes
and booms, and talk that They had been replaced.  Mary had heard of no
more raids for some time, and people from the "new" goverment had
eventually visited and explained that Fear was over.  They even tried
to explain a list of "rights" or "freedoms" that Mary now had.  Mary
thought this was rather scary, perhaps a trap, but over the months
that followed she saw that one could speak, or travel, or meet freely
and that They did not roam at night any more.

There had been talk that the Gringos had helped the resistance, which
had been hopelessly weaker than the well armed Rulers had been.  There
was now talk that vehicles with the ESF's green thunderbolt had been
seen in the city, and so Mary found an excuse to travel there.

She stayed in a church there, which was accustomed to helping the
locals when they came to town, and had the priest there try to contact
Alex
through the ESF people in town.  During the last day she could stay
before returning, the priest explained that he had contacted Alex but
that he was unable to visit; but he had sent something for her.

The priest held a small black box in his hand, different from the ones
in her Talking kit, and led her to another room.  He turned on a large
box with a window that glowed, but showed no picture.  He slid the
black box into an opening in the large glowing box, and moving
pictures appeared in the big window.   There were rows of Outsiders,
dressed more like the missionaries than Alex's more jungle adapted
garb.  The priest explained.

"This is a movie of the Gringo Rulers, and they are deciding what to
do about the Tyrants they helped us evict.  Many of them distrusted
the Tyrants but had no evidence of his crimes ---did you know that all
our
telephones were listened to, back then?"

"Anyway, this is a real movie.  About four months ago.  The Gringos
are trying to deciding if the Atrocity stories have any truth.  This
was hard for them, because they are far away, you know, and They
controlled what the world thought about us.  But this is the meeting
where they decided to help us."

That is nice, Mary interrupted, somewhat hypnotized by the moving
pictures.  But what has this to do with me?

"Look there.  Do you recognize him?"  Alex was there, he was facing
the rows of people dressed like missionaries, and he was holding
something up.  Everyone was looking at him.  What an odd thing to send
me, Mary thought; I can't make out his face very well.

"Wait, dear, I have to turn the volume up." said the priest, twisting
a knob.  And Mary heard that voice.. the one that the window-box
repeats when she talked to it.. saying what Mary had said.. to the
Gringo
Rulers..

(c) 2000












From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 15:17:06 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:17:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101121427410.4561-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101121808110.8719-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> 
> 
> Are there any good general cryptographic protocols for groups 
> taking group actions by formal consensus or voting rules?

There are distributed signing protocols which could go partway towards
meeting this goal. For some details, you can look at the IBM project on
"Proactive Security" 
	http://www.hrl.il.ibm.com/Proactive/ 

They've implemented some of the protocols involved; there's a paper in ACM
CCS 5 I think which gives the API for their "Proactive Security Toolkit."
Java 1.1 implementation of distributed DSA signatures. Unfortunately, the
web page, which advertises a download for 8/99, seems to be out of date. 

	http://www.hrl.il.ibm.com/Proactive/project.html 

Now, if you could get your hands on this, then you could do what you want
by having each voter hold a share of the distributed secret key. The
voters agree amongst themselves however on what orders to sign, and then
execute distributed key signing to sign an order. The robot doesn't do
anything unless it receives a valid signed order. 

-David





From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jan 12 15:25:24 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:25:24 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101122333.SAA30321@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Joel McNamara first told me about NONSTOP and its commonly
associated classified codeword, HIJACK, both somehow related
to Tempest. 

When you do a search on either of them you get hundreds 
(or 1000s) of hits for the generic terms "non-stop" and "hi-jack" 
but few entries for the codewords, and then as standards in 
military security documents. 

It's as if the codewords were picked to be camouflaged by the 
generics. And, because codewords are usually set to have
no relation to the protected material, they probably are not 
descriptive -- but could be, just to outfox off the smarties.

The NONSTOP doc released to us was first issued in 1975 
and has gone through 4 reprintings, the latest in 1987. And 
it continues to be cited as still in effect, though usually such 
standards are updated at least every 5 years. So there may
be a later one which would account for the partial release
after first denial.

It's intriguing to read Spycatcher (1987) while reading the 
Tempest docs. I had not read Wright's most informative
book, and regret not having done so.

For those who have not read it, Peter Wright was MI5's
first scientist, and entered the service after WW2. He
specialized in the technology of counterintelligence and
with a few others cooked up a host of ingenious means
to spy on spies and suspects. A specialty was the
extraordinary use of electromagnetic devices -- radio, 
telephone, acoustic, resonance, and more -- applying 
scientific abilities well in advance of technicians and 
engineers. Some of his ideas were so advanced his
bosses said impossible, until he proved effectiveness. 
Then Wright quickly became the savior of bureaucrats 
who could not understand why Britain's enemies kept 
outsmarting them -- usually with advanced technological 
means. Wright changed that, but often got at odds with 
non-scientifically trained personnel.

Among others, he worked closely with GCHQ on occasion 
to provide technical attacks on cryptosystems which could 
not be broken by cryptanalysis. Thus his research on the 
cryptosecrets revealed by compromising emanations from 
devices, cabling, furniture, construction materials, and a host
of ordinary physical objects -- all of which emitted signals that
could be acquired and interpreted by careful tuning for 
comprehension. He writes of amazing methods of acquiring 
signals, and it is no wonder HMG fought to prevent publication 
of Spycatcher.

What he did not write about must be even more wondrous, 
and it makes you think he could pick up your brain waves
if you were part of particular triangulated antenna.

Maybe NONSTOP and HIJACK have nothing to do with
the stuff Wright excelled at. Still, reading Spycatcher
along with the Tempest docs -- and now Stephen
Budiansky's "Battle of Wits: The Complete Story of
Codebreaking in World War II," (2000) -- certainly
demonstrates how much of codebreaking has been
done by covert technical and physical means, even
as we are told misleading cover stories.

Are the crypto-revelations also disinformation?
Historically all have been.  Ha, ha, ha.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:18:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:18:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b684ebbd99c9@[207.111.241.25]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112191717.446U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> At 7:55 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....
> >
> >What makes 'your friend' an authority? Why should we take your word for
> >it? How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
> >friend in collusion?
> >
> 
> So, Jim Choate has evolved to the "Tom is a tentacle of Tim" stage of dementia.

No, simply pointing out that you've admitted to use this anonymously. No
reason to suspect you couldn't be this person either.

No claim for actuality, just an observation of potentiality.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 12 21:39:53 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:39:53 -1000
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b684ec90cb41@[207.111.241.176]>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>


At 09:29 AM 1/12/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
 >At 7:45 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
 >>Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
 >>rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
 >>When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93)
 >>class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
 >>IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
 >>lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
 >>hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.
 >
 >Nonsense. I have known what a 91 and a 93 (and a 94) were for many
 >years. Almost bought a 91 in 1975, _did_ buy a clone.
 >
 >You still haven't responded to what I sent out after my own search of
 >the archives:

More important (to me) than quibbles about model numbers,
and I've not yet seen it addressed in this forum;

At 12:06 AM 1/11/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:

 >NATO was planning to standardize on the 7.62 mm NATO round for
 >its main battle rifle. (The length was 54 mm, hence "7.62 x 54 NATO."

7.62 x 54?

54?

You wrote it twice, so don't claim it was a typo,,,

Reese




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:44:02 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:44:02 -0600
Subject: An example of Tim's confusion...
Message-ID: <3A5FB2E2.B13A6BD5@ssz.com>


Hey Tim,

Seems you felt the 91 came in other calibres than .308 too...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.18-1997.12.24/msg00390.html

Where's your correction?

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 16:47:00 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:47:00 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b684efb8892f@[207.111.241.176]>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:32 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>
>The Tandem Computers "NONSTOP" was a product line in use by various 
>government agencies for secure (fault-tolerant) computing for a long 
>time. I'd look there for starters.

(I thought this was too speculative, but given Tim's guess..)

I have also thought that NONSTOP refers to fault-tolerant under high-RF
conditions.   Also useful when flying (etc.) near your own antennas,
dishes, etc.

A sort of military version of the FCC standard for consumer electronics: 
doesn't emit bad (informative) radiation, accepts bad radiation without
interference.

Note that shielding that worked for tempest would also help nonstop;
and that some of the gear at a testing site (antennas) serves
both purposes.

(After reading  Harmon Seaver's piece) Since this is the NSA, maybe they
were testing that high-RF environments didn't cause info leakage -someone
else tests that the stuff simply works under field conditions.  Maybe the
thing they wanted not stopped was tempest protection.





 






  








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:50:15 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:50:15 -0600
Subject: Fuck you Tim.
Message-ID: <3A5FB457.304DCE07@ssz.com>

Yep, I never recognize my mistakes. Not once...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.25-1997.12.31/msg00100.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:53:22 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:53:22 -0600
Subject: And speaking of bad memory or intenional shit stirring...
Message-ID: <3A5FB512.F7900142@ssz.com>

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.25-1997.12.31/msg00119.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:02:25 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:02:25 -0600
Subject: And abou that Gauss thing...
Message-ID: <3A5FB731.5D598AAA@ssz.com>


What's that about Gauss's Law not operating on a sphere?...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.11.23-98.11.29/msg00038.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:03:35 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:03:35 -0600
Subject: Another genious on physics...
Message-ID: <3A5FB777.AB3D358A@ssz.com>

Like the sparks don't release charge that gets distributed via Gauss's Law
to the OUTSIDE of the sphere...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.11.09-98.11.15/msg00035.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 17:09:42 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:09:42 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101121427410.4561-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:01 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>Crucial facts about a protocol that does the right thing would be: 
>
>1) DOES NOT create any single priveleged user or machine. 
>
>2) Resistant to denial-of-service attacks and attempts to 
>   "stack the vote." (Requires user authentication)
>
>3) No altered versions of the agent ought to be able to gather
>   enough information to force an action as long as at least 
>   the majority of agents are unaltered.
>
>4) Once a consensus is reached, a majority of the agents acting
>   together should be able to take whatever action is found
>   even if the dissenters' agents don't cooperate with them.
>   (a consensus reassembles a key?  But then that key can't 
>   be used again, what's the next key?)
>

Interesting idea.  Starting with 1 user who can admit (by virtue 
of having 100% of the vote) and then letting the users vote
to add others.  

I don't think reassembling the key is the final stage.  I think
the server could simply use a voting protocol to get (or timeout) 
permission to do proposed actions.  We are assuming that the server
is trusted, right?  

The server could send signed PGP-encrypted email to all members saying: 
"The following script has been proposed to be run by GroupServer for your
Group.. to vote yes or no, sign a yes or no message and encrypt and send it
to GroupServer.  This vote closes in 3 days, and votes are acknowleged
immediately."


Perhaps I'm not clear on what constitutes an action that could
be distributed without relying on a trusted actor (server).  

(Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
of the DB?  




 






  








From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Fri Jan 12 17:10:15 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:10:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200101130110.UAA09403@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com>



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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:36:06 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:36:06 -0600
Subject: About those EM waves, Gauss's Law, and somebodies fucked up physics...& incomplete CH archives
Message-ID: <3A5FBF16.E3372576@ssz.com>


http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1998.11.02-1998.11.08/msg00169.html

If the waves aren't reflected where do they go? The Faraday Cage is the only
place since it's absorbing them. What happens when that happens? A charge
builds up on the cage. Then what happens? The charge leaks away to Earth.
What happens when a charge flows? A current you say? And then what? A EM
field you say?

Wow, and we build detectors for both static and dynamic fields. Imagine
that.

What happens is this:

EM field strikes ungrounded Faraday Cage. This induces a current in cage
conserving the energy of the EM Field. When that field goes away the
electrons in the cage now have energy over their ground state. So what does
a happy electron do when it has extra energy and wants to go to ground? It
gives it away. What do we call that? EM radiation or radio/light/heat.
Easily detectable. Don't ground the shield you're just making an antenna.
One kind of antenna like this is called a box antenna. It also happens to be
why they build stealth planes out of something other than conductors (ask
yourself how that flat plate 'reflects' the radar).

If an electron always seeks the shortest path (which it doesn't, it hops
around quantum like and is only probabilisticaly taking the shortest path,
this old wives tail ignores the 'like charges repel' rule) then how come
lightening branches?  How come lightening is several inches to a couple of
feet in diameter.
Are you saying a tube is a shorter path than a line? Are you saying that two
paths through the air have EXACTLY the same resistance? That's pretty
unlikely yet almost all lightening has branching.

And if a spark gap is actually conserving charge (it doesn't, if it did a
spark gap radio wouldn't work) then where does all that Ozone come from?
What do you thing happens when the ozone breaks down with the first UV
photon that comes bopping along? They break apart and make O2 and O (which
has a charge).

I did notice while tooling around the CH Archive that it's not complete.
There are at least two posts in the 'Gauss' discussion that were a responce
to emails later on in the discussion (graphics showing ways to build
'batteries' that had excess charge in contravention to the supposition
proposed that all batteries had to have no excess charge to distribute to
the sphere).


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________


           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:56:44 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:56:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: An example of Tim's confusion...
In-Reply-To: <01eb01c07d06$4a56eb60$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112205532.446i-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I didn't quote it, I sent the entire message. Tim says HO 91 (.308
calibre) as if there were others.

Moot point really. The real demonstration here is that even Tim gets
confused. So his throwing shit at others for behaviour he participates in
is just silly.

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Me wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
> > Hey Tim, seems you felt the 91 came in other calibres than .308
> too...
> >
> http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.18-1997.12.24/msg
> 00390.html
> > Where's your correction?
> 
> In that message, Tim appears to say that the HK-91 is .308,
> compared to the HK-93 which is .223.  This is correct.  It is
> clearer if you read his original post, instead of your message
> that quotes it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:57:52 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:57:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim on E&M
In-Reply-To: <3A5FBE40.9DC55B86@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112205706.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> When it comes to E&M you're really off in the tall grass.

Really? I've been damned succesful with it over the last 25 years.

If you really believe that grounding is NOT REQUIRED for sheilding then
it's not I who knows nothing about emissive EM.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From commerce at home.com  Fri Jan 12 18:12:32 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:12:32 -0500
Subject: An example of Tim's confusion...
References: <3A5FB2E2.B13A6BD5@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <01eb01c07d06$4a56eb60$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
> Hey Tim, seems you felt the 91 came in other calibres than .308
too...
>
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.18-1997.12.24/msg
00390.html
> Where's your correction?

In that message, Tim appears to say that the HK-91 is .308,
compared to the HK-93 which is .223.  This is correct.  It is
clearer if you read his original post, instead of your message
that quotes it.






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Jan 12 18:28:14 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:28:14 -0500
Subject: Jim on E&M
Message-ID: <3A5FBE40.9DC55B86@lsil.com>


Jim,

I remember that whole Faraday cage discussion - it was painful.

When it comes to E&M you're really off in the tall grass.

Mike





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From: brain0 at 371.net (brain0 at 371.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:17:07 +0000
Subject: Affrdable Vacation Packages
Message-ID: <vqkg8e6f.8ii44v0anw8yujerdd@beverly.babit.com>


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From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 12 19:28:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:28:58 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:47:00PM -0500
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net> <a05010402b684efb8892f@[207.111.241.176]> <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20010112225629.A26805@cluebot.com>


David's suggestion makes sense to me. But if NONSTOP is a codeword, it
would be classified at least secret, and manufacturers of such
products would be discouraged by their customers at NSA from labeling
their products with such a name.

-Declan


On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:47:00PM -0500, David Honig wrote:
> At 12:32 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
> >
> >The Tandem Computers "NONSTOP" was a product line in use by various 
> >government agencies for secure (fault-tolerant) computing for a long 
> >time. I'd look there for starters.
> 
> (I thought this was too speculative, but given Tim's guess..)
> 
> I have also thought that NONSTOP refers to fault-tolerant under high-RF
> conditions.   Also useful when flying (etc.) near your own antennas,
> dishes, etc.
> 
> A sort of military version of the FCC standard for consumer electronics: 
> doesn't emit bad (informative) radiation, accepts bad radiation without
> interference.
> 
> Note that shielding that worked for tempest would also help nonstop;
> and that some of the gear at a testing site (antennas) serves
> both purposes.
> 
> (After reading  Harmon Seaver's piece) Since this is the NSA, maybe they
> were testing that high-RF environments didn't cause info leakage -someone
> else tests that the stuff simply works under field conditions.  Maybe the
> thing they wanted not stopped was tempest protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 19:54:03 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:54:03 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <20010112225629.A26805@cluebot.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112195316.007dc7d0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:56 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>David's suggestion makes sense to me. But if NONSTOP is a codeword, it
>would be classified at least secret, and manufacturers of such
>products would be discouraged by their customers at NSA from labeling
>their products with such a name.
>
>-Declan

I agree... this remains a problem with my thesis.  Perhaps it is
from an earlier time, before they randomly chose short words or word-pairs
from lists as opaque labels?  

I just finished Rowlett's _Magic_ and in there, someone
had to point out to the SIS cryptanalysts that you shouldn't refer to what
the ca. WWII Japanese called "Cipher Machine, type A" in English as the
"type A machine".   Thus their arbitrary designators ("red", "purple") were
chosen.


------
The great thing about humans is they can come up with a theory for anything.






 






  








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 23:17:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:17:08 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b685b1347a49@[207.111.241.220]>


At 7:39 PM -1000 1/12/01, Reese wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 1/12/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>At 7:45 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
>>>rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
>>>When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93)
>>>class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
>>>IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
>>>lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
>>>hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.
>>
>>Nonsense. I have known what a 91 and a 93 (and a 94) were for many
>>years. Almost bought a 91 in 1975, _did_ buy a clone.
>>
>>You still haven't responded to what I sent out after my own search of
>>the archives:
>
>More important (to me) than quibbles about model numbers,
>and I've not yet seen it addressed in this forum;
>
>At 12:06 AM 1/11/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>
>>NATO was planning to standardize on the 7.62 mm NATO round for
>>its main battle rifle. (The length was 54 mm, hence "7.62 x 54 NATO."
>
>7.62 x 54?
>
>54?
>

51.

I acknowledge my mistake. Doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 21:23:14 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:23:14 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130010410.28940-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

> (Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
> N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
> reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
> of the DB?  

One way to address this problem is to use secret sharing. Everyone gets
a share. Only a certain threshold need to cooperate to reconstruct.
Everyone's secret counts the same, so in order to deny service you need to
have fewer than threshold non-cooperatives. 

You never reconstruct the database in one place. Instead, you figure out a
clever way to do a distributed query on the database shares, such that at
the end of the protocol, out pops the result. There are plausibility
results due to Ben-Or, Goldwasser, Goldreich, Wigderson, and others about
this under the name "secure multiparty computation." Briefly, if you can
express a boolean F function with n inputs, then n parties can get
together and evaluate F(x1,x2,...,xn) such that
	
	* everyone learns the output
	* no one learns anything about an xi not their own

So in particular you can build an F() which reconstructs a database from
shares x1,x2,...xn and then runs a query on the database. Only the results
of the query are output; the theorems tell you that the shares stay
secret.

"So is it practical?" The answer is NO. These protocols tell you how to
secure multiparty compute a function gate by gate. With nontrivial
computational overhead and communication per gate. But, hey, at least it's
possible!

-David





From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Fri Jan 12 21:25:18 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:25:18 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112195316.007dc7d0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <20010112225629.A26805@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010113002447.010bc880@ct2.nai.net>


-=|[ duuh... ]|=-

"NONSTOP" is moreso a protocol and general criteria for operations. It is
not soley restricted to physical, TEMPEST, hij/abduct, intel, crypto, or
any other specific protection mechanism.

NONSTOP is more a general idea and concept, with implications and
implementations across all interrelated elements which probibly 'shouldn't
stop'...

JYA has an email from me directly with more basic info/'theory'. (he will
review and use whatever content desired thereof)

You note NONSTOP"" with hijack type associated logic... Although these
phrases refer to some unknown ic/dod/etc protocols, it is also quite well
founded in reality... 

NONSTOP protections prevent hijack. End of point. How? Research this.

A previous cp CDR message about a year ago referenced HIJACK/NONSTOP
training at the afb in san-antonio TX... It had TEMPEST shielding protocol
as a parallel course to NONSTOP... 

Any logical speculation as to why?

-- With 'baaah' in mind,

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com


-=|[.]|=-





At 10:54 PM 1/12/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:56 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>David's suggestion makes sense to me. But if NONSTOP is a codeword, it
>>would be classified at least secret, and manufacturers of such
>>products would be discouraged by their customers at NSA from labeling
>>their products with such a name.
>>
>>-Declan
>






From bear at sonic.net  Fri Jan 12 21:30:23 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:30:23 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101122103330.18893-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

>the server could simply use a voting protocol to get (or timeout) 
>permission to do proposed actions.  We are assuming that the server
>is trusted, right?  

Actually, no.  That creates a single priveleged machine, which is 
also a point of failure, which is also a point of attack, which is 
also subject to subpeonas or outright theft.  Ideally, this is 
something that runs on the distributed machines of the participants.
I think that's the only way to be safe from the "lawsuit attack".


>Perhaps I'm not clear on what constitutes an action that could
>be distributed without relying on a trusted actor (server).  


For example, consider a robo-moderated mailing list formed by 
cat owners.  They have a "posting protocol" that requires you 
to submit a digital coin worth a dollar or two along with your 
letter.  If enough people click on the "this is spam" button, 
the group agents donate the coin to an animal shelter and you 
can't spend it. Otherwise, you get your coin back when your 
message expires.  

The posting protocols etc. are wrapped in scripts, of course; 
on your end you get a message box that says "Are you willing 
to post a two-dollar bond that says most of the people on the 
list don't think this is spam?"  and yes/no buttons.  The 
subscribers just have another little button on their mail 
reader - So it goes Next message, delete, reply, reply all, 
spam.

I'd really like it if somebody has figured out a way for a 
group to form consensus and act on that consensus as though 
it were a single individual -- capable of participating in 
general protocols.  

But individual solutions to problems like the above would 
be a great start. 

				Bear




>At 06:01 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>
>>Crucial facts about a protocol that does the right thing would be: 
>>
>>1) DOES NOT create any single priveleged user or machine. 
>>
>>2) Resistant to denial-of-service attacks and attempts to 
>>   "stack the vote." (Requires user authentication)
>>
>>3) No altered versions of the agent ought to be able to gather
>>   enough information to force an action as long as at least 
>>   the majority of agents are unaltered.
>>
>>4) Once a consensus is reached, a majority of the agents acting
>>   together should be able to take whatever action is found
>>   even if the dissenters' agents don't cooperate with them.
>>   (a consensus reassembles a key?  But then that key can't 
>>   be used again, what's the next key?)
>>
>
>Interesting idea.  Starting with 1 user who can admit (by virtue 
>of having 100% of the vote) and then letting the users vote
>to add others.  
>
>I don't think reassembling the key is the final stage.  I think
>the server could simply use a voting protocol to get (or timeout) 
>permission to do proposed actions.  We are assuming that the server
>is trusted, right?  

>The server could send signed PGP-encrypted email to all members saying: 
>"The following script has been proposed to be run by GroupServer for your
>Group.. to vote yes or no, sign a yes or no message and encrypt and send it
>to GroupServer.  This vote closes in 3 days, and votes are acknowleged
>immediately."
>
>
>(Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
>N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
>reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
>of the DB?  
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 22:01:59 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:01:59 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101122103330.18893-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130051060.16038-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> list don't think this is spam?"  and yes/no buttons.  The 
> subscribers just have another little button on their mail 
> reader - So it goes Next message, delete, reply, reply all, 
> spam.

Well, the totally trivial and stupid thing is for a list reader to
sign a message saying "I think message X is spam" and send it to the list
server. Actually, he doesn't even have to send the message; he can just
send the signature if the message is in some canonical format. 

The server can verify the signature, verify the user's ID, increment a
counter, and throw away the signature. When the counter passes a
threshold T, -chomp- the server eats the bond. 
The server can even keep the signatures around if it wants to prove to the
luser later that yes, lots of people really did think his message was
spam. 

This has at least two problems

	1) Identifies the user who says "I think this is spam." 
	Not a good idea in principle, possibly not a good idea in
	practice. A potential solution would be a way for a user
	to sign a message in such a way that

		* no one can determine which individual public key signed 
		the message 
	
		* yet anyone can determine that the signer's public key
		belongs to a specific set of public keys (chosen by the
		signer and fixed at signature time to avoid the problem
		with "well, remove one public key and try again!")
		in this case, the set of eligible list voters.

	There's probably some crypto voting paper which solves a problem
	much like this. I'm not up on that. 

	2) Keeping an audit trail so the server can prove that the
	majority really did think message X was spam. With this proposal
	audit trails consist of up to T signatures, where T is the 
	threshold used to trigger the spam alert. At like 1K per signature
	and many e-mails, this could be sizable. 

-David





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 22:38:04 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:38:04 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130051060.16038-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130127470.29069-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>



> 
> Well, the totally trivial and stupid thing is for a list reader to
> sign a message saying "I think message X is spam" and send it to the list

Sorry, I re-read your message and noted the requirement to ahve no central
server. How about this:

	1) To post a message, sender S takes a 2-dollar coin and then
	uses some kind of verifiable secret sharing protocol to split it
	into shares.

	2) S sends the shares to the group agents. 

	3) Each group agent verifies that it has a share consistent with
	the other group agents (see Byzantine Agreement for this one).
	If any share fails, then something bad happens (what?). The
	other problem is what happens if S just submitted a bunch of
	garbage; I'm not sure how to deal with this DoS attack. 

	4) If a group agent thinks the message is spam, it sends its
	share to Engineers Sans Frontiers or whoever. Otherwise it keeps
	mum.

Now if enough group agents (1/2, 1/3, whatever) think the message is spam,
enough shares collect at step 4) to reconstruct the 2-dollar coin.
Otherwise not enough shares collect and the coin is never reconstructed.
Presumably S kept a copy and can spend it later. 

No central server now, just needs a verifiable secret sharing scheme.
Pedersen has one, and another is part of the Proactive Security work I
mentioned previously. 

-David 







From drhabib at y.net.ye  Fri Jan 12 15:42:43 2001
From: drhabib at y.net.ye (dr.habib)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:42:43 +0300
Subject: FREE Memberships today! 
Message-ID: <000901c07cf1$6e2a4380$0c055ec3@habib>

 free membership 
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From dsokol at osnut.com  Sat Jan 13 05:41:53 2001
From: dsokol at osnut.com (dsokol at osnut.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:41:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Exciting New Nutraceutical Company- Promote your own ideas!
Message-ID: <200101131341.FAA14652@toad.com>

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From declan at well.com  Sat Jan 13 05:52:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:52:59 -0500
Subject: GOP hopes for more porn prosecutions; Bush to weigh MS case
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010113085248.00a35a00@mail.well.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41164,00.html

    As the Porn Peril Turns
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Jan. 13, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON -- The peril of online porn is why John Ashcroft should be
    the next attorney general, conservative organizations said on Friday.

    At a press conference organized to support Ashcroft's embattled
    nomination, the groups predicted that, among his other virtues, he
    would kick off a wave of Net-sex prosecutions.

    Beverly LaHaye of Concerned Women for America said that Ashcroft,
    unlike Attorney General Janet Reno, would enforce "laws against
    obscenity."

    Donna Rice-Hughes, the former Gary Hart gal pal turned antiporn
    activist, described herself as an "Internet safety advocate in support
    of John Ashcroft for attorney general."

    "The $1.5 billion online porn industry has continued to prosper with
    an anything-goes green light from the current Justice Department,"
    said Rice-Hughes, who founded Enough is Enough.

    "When George W. won, the porn industry lost," said Rice-Hughes, who
    claimed that online prurience "exploits women, preys on men and
    invades the innocence of (America's) children."

    [...]



http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41163,00.html

    DOJ Pushes Case Against MS
    by Declan McCullagh
    9:45 a.m. Jan. 12, 2001 PST

    President-elect George W. Bush and his cabinet will soon decide what
    to do about the Microsoft antitrust case, a spokesman said on Friday.

    "The incoming administration and the incoming attorney general will
    review them and make any decisions as necessary," Ari Fleischer,
    Bush-Cheney transition spokesman, said in response to a question about
    Microsoft and other lawsuits the Clinton administration has filed.

    Fleischer, at the daily transition press conference, said he would not
    comment further on the Microsoft case. But he said that in general,
    Bush believes that the feds "too often engage in litigation to solve
    problems."

    "The president-elect will not rush to litigate the way some folks in
    Washington enjoy litigating," Fleischer said.

    [...] 




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan 13 12:29:21 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:29:21 -1000
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b685b1347a49@[207.111.241.220]>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010113102845.00d49220@flex.com>


At 11:17 PM 1/12/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
 >At 7:39 PM -1000 1/12/01, Reese wrote:

 >>54?
 >>
 >
 >51.
 >
 >I acknowledge my mistake. Doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

I know, I'm just quibbling,,,  ;)

Reese




From hummertwo at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 13 12:16:17 2001
From: hummertwo at hotmail.com (hummertwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:16:17
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE!!! ....A Complete Maketing Package!!!
Message-ID: <150.304532.269529@mail.netidea.com>


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From sales at spyworld.co.uk  Sat Jan 13 13:41:33 2001
From: sales at spyworld.co.uk (Spyword)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:41:33
Subject: Surveillance and Counter Surveillance
Message-ID: <200101131340.FAA14605@toad.com>


 cypherpunks at toad.com recently visited Spyworld Ltd, Spyworld Ltd specialise in providing
surveillance  and counter surveillance equipment.

to find out more go to www.spyworld.co.uk

Regards,

Marketing Division
Spyworld Ltd




From sales at spyworld.co.uk  Sat Jan 13 13:41:41 2001
From: sales at spyworld.co.uk (Spyword)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:41:41
Subject: Surveillance and Counter Surveillance
Message-ID: <200101131343.FAA00396@cyberpass.net>


 cypherpunks at cyberpass.net recently visited Spyworld Ltd, Spyworld Ltd specialise in providing
surveillance  and counter surveillance equipment.

to find out more go to www.spyworld.co.uk

Regards,

Marketing Division
Spyworld Ltd




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Jan 13 10:42:44 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:42:44 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <NDBBIFGOKODBCKDGJDKLKEMPFDAA.shamrock@cypherpunks.to>


GSM phones do indeed broadcast their International Mobile Equipment Number
(IMEI). The IMIE is hardcoded into the firmware of each phone. Changing the
IMIE is possible, but not from the UI. Recently, the manufacturers have
announced that they will make it even more difficult to alter IMEI's in the
future.

--Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to>

  "Anytime you decrypt... its against the law".
   Jack Valenti, President, Motion Picture Association of America in
   a sworn deposition, 2000-06-06


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cypherpunks at openpgp.net [mailto:cypherpunks at openpgp.net]On Behalf
> Of Mats O. Bergstrom
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 14:53
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: cell phone anonymity
>
>
> At 10:06 2001-01-07 -0800, montag montag wrote:
> >Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> >pre-paid cell phone
>
> GSM/Europe
> 1) Buy a cell phone and pay cash
> 2) Buy a GSM cash-card and pay cash
> 3) Don4t send in the registration form to get that extra half hour!  :-)
>
> To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards and change
> frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not counting the prepaid
> calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is sending it's serial
> number (but who - except for deep insiders and possibly Lucky Green -
> knows for sure?).
>
> //Mob
>
>
>





From hummertwo at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 13 14:09:15 2001
From: hummertwo at hotmail.com (hummertwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:09:15
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE!!! ....A Complete Maketing Package!!!
Message-ID: <776.791635.876341@mail.netidea.com>


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*  FREE Internet Training! 
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*  FREE E-Book Creation Software! 
*  FREE HTML Editing Program!
*  FREE FFA's! 
*  FREE Autoresponders! 
*  FREE Report - Creating Profitable Ads! 
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From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Jan 13 12:01:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:01:27 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130010410.28940-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010113114410.007e8b80@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:23 AM 1/13/01 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>
>On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> (Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
>> N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
>> reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
>> of the DB?  
>
>One way to address this problem is to use secret sharing. Everyone gets
>a share. Only a certain threshold need to cooperate to reconstruct.
>Everyone's secret counts the same, so in order to deny service you need to
>have fewer than threshold non-cooperatives. 
>
>You never reconstruct the database in one place. Instead, you figure out a
>clever way to do a distributed query on the database shares, such that at
>the end of the protocol, out pops the result. There are plausibility
>results due to Ben-Or, Goldwasser, Goldreich, Wigderson, and others about
>this under the name "secure multiparty computation." Briefly, if you can
>express a boolean F function with n inputs, then n parties can get
>together and evaluate F(x1,x2,...,xn) such that
>	
>	* everyone learns the output
>	* no one learns anything about an xi not their own
>

Suppose the action to be voted on is an update of the distributed
DB [1].  How do you enforce an *update* on the shares?  Wouldn't
that require the cooperation of all shareholders?  I would think that
enough noncooperative shareholders could fork off their own
group, diverging from the point where they didn't update their shares.

[1] For instance, the DB could be the list of members, the
action could be to add or drop a member.

Also, some group actions might compromise the DB itself, and so it seems to
me that you'd often need a trusted server which accepts
votes on its actions.  Though I realize this implies a central
point of attack/control (the Napster problem).









 






  








From softwareplus at YLUY.algo.at  Sat Jan 13 16:10:33 2001
From: softwareplus at YLUY.algo.at (softwareplus at YLUY.algo.at)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:10:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Make Money Now! -WDLO
Message-ID: <200101140010.QAA17146@cyberpass.net>


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From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Jan 13 16:12:41 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:12:41 -0800
Subject: Vaccum propeller-head conference
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010113160836.03ee13c0@pop3.lvcm.com>

One of the first, perhaps the first, professional conference on massless 
drives for space exploration is being held shortly in England.

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/space-science/workshop/agendax.htm

steve
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From marina at bizoppalliance.MIT.EDU  Sat Jan 13 17:06:11 2001
From: marina at bizoppalliance.MIT.EDU (marina at bizoppalliance.MIT.EDU)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:06:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHECK THIS VISA CARD OUT!!!
Message-ID: <200101140106.RAA25757@toad.com>


VisaRebates.com is giving away FREE Visa cards with flight miles on any airline, 
merchandise points, and more - all FREE. And theyre giving away millions of dollars 
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Have a Great Day!!
Marina Newman

If you wish to be excluded from any more mailings please reply and put REMOVE in 
the subjuct line....







From alphabeta121 at hushmail.com  Sat Jan 13 18:46:16 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hushmail.com (alphabeta121 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 21:46:16 -0500 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200101140548.VAA29511@user1.hushmail.com>

Pardon me but was signing up for this list a joke, cause all I've recieved 
since i signed on is two kilos of spam for a gram of not-spam.

alpha

query:  what is best anonymous remailer?

From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sat Jan 13 19:03:41 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:03:41 -0500
Subject: (fwd) 'Rave' party organizers indicted under federal drug law
Message-ID: <200101140303.f0E33QD25542@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


-- forwarded message --
Path: newsfeed.slurp.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: nospam417 at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry,alt.drugs.hard,alt.drugs.pot,alt.drugs.psychedelics
Subject: 'Rave' party organizers indicted under federal drug law
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 06:34:37 GMT
Organization: Deja.com
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <93ostu$u23$1 at nnrp1.deja.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.58.46.166
X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 06:34:37 2001 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; sureseeker.com)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 142.58.46.166
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDnospam417
Xref: newsfeed.slurp.net alt.drugs.chemistry:89792 alt.drugs.hard:240476 alt.drugs.pot:367116 alt.drugs.psychedelics:197748

'Rave' party organizers indicted under federal drug law

January 12, 2001
Web posted at: 3:26 p.m. EST (2026 GMT)

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The U.S. Attorney for the Eastern
District of Louisiana and the Drug Enforcement Administration announced
the indictment Friday of three "rave" party organizers, marking the
first time the federal "crack house" law has been used for prosecuting
organizers of such events.

"Raves" are large dance parties often associated with the drug MDMA,
commonly called ecstasy.

The indictments were returned against Robert J. Brunet and James D.
Estobinal of Louisiana and Brian J. Brunett of Tampa. Florida as a
result of "Operation Rave Review," a joint investigation conducted the
DEA and the New Orleans Police Department.

The 1986 law, passed to combat crack cocaine, was designed to punish
the owners or operators of houses used for the manufacture, storage,
distribution or use of illegal drugs. Violators face a maximum penalty
20 years on prison and a $500,000 fine.

Users of ecstasy often describe a feeling of euphoria. Researchers have
reported the drug can cause brain damage by destroying neurons that
produce the neurotransmitter serotonin, responsible for controlling
mood, sleep, pain, sexual activity and violent behavior.


Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
-- end of forwarded message --

-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From bear at sonic.net  Sat Jan 13 23:46:36 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 23:46:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200101140548.VAA29511@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101132339230.31265-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 alphabeta121 at hushmail.com wrote:

>Pardon me but was signing up for this list a joke, cause all I've recieved 
>since i signed on is two kilos of spam for a gram of not-spam.

That's because you're on the toad.com node.  I'm going to send this 
note there because otherwise you probably won't see it; but you need 
to sign up for one of the other nodes and get off toad if you want to 
see much of anything that isn't spam.  Outside of toad, the ratio is 
closer to fifty-fifty.

>alpha
>
>query:  what is best anonymous remailer?

go to http://anon.efga.org/Remailers/ for recent updates.  Pick the 
ones you think are best from the information there.  I recommend a 
mixmaster remailer rather than a first-generation 'cypherpunk' 
remailer, but other than that you're on your own.  For different 
uses and different operations, different remailers will be more 
reliable. 

I also recommend never using only one remailer.  

				Bear






From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Sat Jan 13 21:01:53 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:01:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200101140501.AAA25337@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com>



Dear bad_andy,

Welcome to NYTimes.com! 

We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. 
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Your account information is listed below for future reference:

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please forward this e-mail to cancel at nytimes.com and write "cancel"
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From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Sat Jan 13 21:21:38 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:21:38 -0500
Subject: Article:  The coming backlash in privacy
Message-ID: <b2ccbcc038659a95a253835b57aa81f7@mixmaster.shinn.net>


[From The Economist magazine]

New privacy services will soon allow consumers to buy goods anonymously online�forcing web-based retailers to change the way they do business

OVER the past couple of months, a Dallas-based company called Digital Convergence has given away more than 1m bar-code scanners to computer users across America. If the company sticks to its business plan, it will have handed out some 40m by this time next year. The scanners cost around $10 apiece. So why the sudden generosity? Because the company expects to get its money back, and more, by selling information about the users� purchasing habits.

Scanning the bar codes on a packet of cornflakes, say, sends the user�s Internet browser to the manufacturer�s website. Each scanner, known as a CueCat, comes with its own unique identifier code and software to operate it. On installing the software, the user is required to register personal details such as name, e-mail address, age, sex and post code. Such details can then be correlated with the information that the CueCat gleans about the products a user scans. The company hopes that such marketing information will eventually be worth more than the $400m it plans to spend seeding the market with CueCats.

But the company had not reckoned with the ingenuity of users of Linux software. Noted for their programming skills and their contempt for Microsoft�s Windows, a group of Linux hackers decided to let CueCat work on computers that use the free Linux operating system instead of the ubiquitous Windows. Being a mischievous bunch, they wrote their software so that it would bypass Digital Convergence�s own computers. And for a laugh, they made a Windows version available as well. Just days after the CueCats were released, free scanning software started appearing on the Internet and was downloaded eagerly by countless users. Digital Convergence was not amused. For the company, every hacked CueCat was another $10 down the drain. 
Data mavens

A number of e-commerce ventures have been based on the proposition that retailers, manufacturers and advertisers are ready to pay large sums to get their hands on marketing data collected by online services that bribe users with some free offer to divulge their personal details. But, as the hacked CueCats show, companies that do this are likely, sooner or later, to be bitten by their own customers. Indeed, life is getting harder for online firms that try to survive by exploiting the marketing data they collect. Consumers have become far more concerned about invasions of their privacy, and they are now being given the technology to protect themselves. 

Recently, two controversial incidents have caused politicians and consumer groups to turn their attention to online privacy. After vociferous complaints, DoubleClick, an online advertising agency based in New York, aborted its plan to merge its records of people�s visits to websites with its database of users� names and addresses. And public opprobrium was heaped on Toysmart, a failed Internet start-up, for violating one of its own privacy pledges when it tried to sell its customer database to another retailer.

	

	

Soon, consumers will no longer have to rely solely on the integrity of online merchants to limit what advertisers glean about their web-surfing practices. A new breed of privacy-service provider, or �infomediary�, is learning to make money from protecting people�s privacy by short-circuiting the way that online retailers secretly accumulate information about visitors to their websites.

One infomediary that works with consumers, Lumeria, based in Berkeley, California, aims to let its users evade marketers selectively�and to earn money in the process. The company�s free software encrypts a user�s profile and stores it on its own computers. Whenever the user wants to access the Internet, he can use Lumeria�s computer as a proxy-server, to stop his personal details from being transmitted direct to any advertisers. The proxy-server intercedes between the user and every web page, allowing only those adverts that match the user�s interest profile to appear on his browser. Anonymous, aggregated information is then sold to marketers, with a royalty paid to the user.
The only survivors

For the more paranoid, iPrivacy of New York has come up with software that can shield a user�s activities so completely that not even the company itself has access to the information. In iPrivacy�s scheme, a user begins by downloading software from a company he knows and trusts�for instance, his credit-card company or bank. The software allows the user to browse in complete privacy. When he wishes to buy something, the program generates a new identity for him�complete with a fictitious name and e-mail address, a coded postal address, and a one-off credit-card number.

This fresh identity is passed, via the online merchant, back to the credit-card company, which matches the details with the user�s real identity and approves the transaction. Meanwhile, the post office is sent a decoded address label, but still a coded name, and ships the goods. The only entity that knows what is actually going on is the user�s original credit-card company, which had all the personal information already. Two added bonuses are that, because the fictitious identity is used only once, it is impossible for online marketers to develop a profile of the user�or for criminals to profit from its theft.

Ruvan Cohen, iPrivacy�s chief executive, has already made a contract with the United States Postal Service for decoding addresses. The company is also working with financial-services firms that want to license the software for their clients. The main reason such a firm might be interested is the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, passed in November 1999, which requires financial institutions to disclose details of who sees the private information they collect from customers. The first disclosure statements must be sent out by July 2001.

Not surprisingly, many financial institutions, anxious about their customers� reactions, are looking for ways to shore up their reputations for confidentiality. American Express has already launched a free one-off system of credit-card payment and intends to provide its customers with a private web-browsing service by the end of 2000. Other credit-card suppliers plan to test iPrivacy�s software early next year so as to be ready for the July deadline. If enough users take advantage of these online filters, the benefits for e-commerce could outweigh the costs. Forrester Research, a technology consultancy based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, reckons that privacy concerns stopped consumers from completing more than $12 billion of online purchases last year.

One worry, however, is that a privacy backlash by consumers could make it harder than ever for online retailers to turn a profit. Amazon.com, the world�s largest online retailer, relies heavily on its marketing database to �personalise� its interactions with its 20m customers. Loyal customers swear by Amazon�s uncanny ability to recommend genuinely useful purchases. But if enough users camouflage themselves, Amazon will no longer be able to send special offers of, say, toys to customers who have just bought some children�s books. And this kind of cross-marketing is a mainstay of Amazon�s business model.

Many online firms have played a zero-sum game that predicated their own profitability on their customers� loss of privacy. The balance may soon tip the other way. The danger is that it could tip too far in the consumer�s favour. Ironically, online consumers could then find themselves being treated rather like offline customers�with free offers and the rest becoming a thing of the past.

Copyright � 1995-2001 The Economist Newspaper Group Ltd. All rights reserved. 






From bear at sonic.net  Sat Jan 13 23:55:37 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 02:55:37 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130127470.29069-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101132350020.31265-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

>	1) To post a message, sender S takes a 2-dollar coin and then
>	uses some kind of verifiable secret sharing protocol to split it
>	into shares.
<snip>
>
>	4) If a group agent thinks the message is spam, it sends its
>	share to Engineers Sans Frontiers or whoever. 

>
>No central server now, just needs a verifiable secret sharing scheme.
>Pedersen has one, 

Cite, or URL?  A verifiable secret sharing protocol could solve a *LOT* 
of protocol problems and I want to read it closely. (Thanks in advance 
for any pointers...)

>and another is part of the Proactive Security work I
>mentioned previously. 

On Byzantine Agreements?  I have run into references to the topic, but 
it was never really clear what Byzantine Agreement really means.

				Bear






From jmp at iris.ocn.ne.jp  Sat Jan 13 10:00:30 2001
From: jmp at iris.ocn.ne.jp (Over Twenty)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:00:30 +0900 (JST)
Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPUshKiQ0QC4/TRsoQg==?=
Message-ID: <200101131800.DAA22428@iris.ocn.ne.jp>


ご成人オメデトウゴザイマス
http://www.gem.hi-ho.ne.jp/p-head/tobi/infdex.htm
成人以外は削除してください






From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Jan 14 06:12:11 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:12:11 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101132350020.31265-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101140859550.15548-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> >No central server now, just needs a verifiable secret sharing scheme.
> >Pedersen has one, 
> 
> Cite, or URL?  A verifiable secret sharing protocol could solve a *LOT* 
> of protocol problems and I want to read it closely. (Thanks in advance 
> for any pointers...)

Pedersen's verifiable secret sharing:
Non-interactive and information-theoretic secure verifiable secret
sharing. In J. Feigenbaum, editor, Advances in Cryptology -- CRYPTO '91,
volume 576 of Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pages 129-140, 11-15
August 1991. Springer-Verlag, 1992

Stadler's publically verifiable secret sharing:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/stadler96publicly.html

Schoenmakers' publically verifiable secret sharing:
http://www.win.tue.nl/math/dw/pp/berry/papers/crypto99.ps.gz

Wenbo Mao explains what "publically verifiable" or "universally
verifiable" means and why to use it:
http://www.hp.co.uk/people/wm/papers/oak98.ps

Rosario Gennaro's thesis on VSS:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/72839.html

Stinson's bibliography on secret sharing schemes:
http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/~dstinson/ssbib.html

> 
> >and another is part of the Proactive Security work I
> >mentioned previously. 
> 
> On Byzantine Agreements?  I have run into references to the topic, but 
> it was never really clear what Byzantine Agreement really means.
> 

Actually, I meant that a verifiable secret sharing scheme is used in the
proactive security work. 

Thanks,
-David





From agl at linuxpower.org  Sun Jan 14 06:30:49 2001
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:30:49 -0500
Subject: Article:  The coming backlash in privacy
In-Reply-To: <b2ccbcc038659a95a253835b57aa81f7@mixmaster.shinn.net>; from anmetet@mixmaster.shinn.net on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:21:38AM -0500
References: <b2ccbcc038659a95a253835b57aa81f7@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <20010114144038.C3427@linuxpower.org>


On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:21:38AM -0500, An Metet wrote:
> Amazon.com, the worldUs largest online retailer, relies heavily on its marketing database to RpersonaliseS its interactions with its 20m customers. Loyal customers swear by AmazonUs uncanny ability to recommend genuinely useful purchases. But if enough users camouflage themselves, Amazon will no longer be able to send special offers of, say, toys to customers who have just bought some childrenUs books. And this kind of cross-marketing is a mainstay of AmazonUs business model.

<sigh> Could someone please tell them about pseudonyms?

AGL

-- 
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan 14 08:49:19 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:49:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.520 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010114104856.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:50:22 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.520

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 520  January 12, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, James
Riordon, and Ben Stein   

PLANETARY OCTAVE.  Johannes Kepler succeeded in

[ SSZ: Text deleted ]

TILTING AT OPTICAL WINDMILLS. One of the greatest
challenges facing engineers who design tiny
microelectromechanical systems (MEMS) is finding ways to
power machines that often measure only microns across. The
answer, it seems, may be blowing in the optical wind. Researchers
at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences have built resin-based
structures that operate on principles similar to those that propel
windmills. Rather than extracting energy from wind, however, the
new devices are driven by beams of light. In one demonstration of
the potential for light-powered machinery, an optical vane turned a
series of interlinked cogwheels, each only 5 microns in diameter.  
The researchers (P�l Ormos, pali at everx.szbk.u-szeged.hu,
36-62-433-465) manufactured various shapes for their devices,
including helixes and propellers, by curing resin with focused laser
light. A particularly promising structure that resembles a common
lawn sprinkler (see figure at
http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics) spins at several revolutions
per second when illuminated by a 20 milliwatt laser beam. In
addition to providing torque to miniature gears, pumps, and other
micro-machines, the light-powered rotors could be used to measure
fluid properties on micrometer scales. Alternatively, it may be
possible to study the mechanical properties of certain molecules,
such as proteins or DNA, by fixing one end to a surface, attaching
a rotor to the other end, and using light to apply a twisting force.
(P�ter Galajda; P�l Ormos, Applied Physics Letters, 8 January
2001.)

ARRAYS OF LOW-TEMPERATURE SENSORS can now be
serviced by a single SQUID
detector operating in a multiplex mode for the first time. A
SQUID, short for superconducting quantum interference device,
can detect very small magnetic fields in the following way: a 
SQUID circuit consists basically of a superconducting loop
interrupted at two points by a thin insulator gap through which
pairs (Cooper pairs) of electrons must tunnel (that is, in their
wavelike capacity the electrons can pass through an otherwise
forbidden zone) to maintain a flowing current. This whole process
is sensitive to any magnetic flux threading the circuit. The addition
of more flux will cause a slight voltage increase across the gap.
Thus a SQUID operates as a flux-to-voltage converter, but can also
be used to read small currents. Physicists at UC Berkeley (contact
Jongsoo Yoon, 510-642-8809, yoon at cfpa.berkeley.edu) have now
developed a SQUID-based multiplexer which can interrogate
arrays of many low-temperature sensors all at once. This makes
possible arrays of a thousand or more sensors for
magnetoencephalography (which maps magnetic fields from brain
activity) and arrays of several thousands of a voltage-biased
superconducting bolometers,  or VSBs, employing tens of
multiplexers. Such large VSB arrays are being developed for the
next generation of spacecraft-based astronomical
observations to detect radiation from interstellar dust and to
explore the earliest history of the Universe by measuring the
cosmic microwave background radiation. The multiplexer is also
useful for arrays of sensors for the detection of ultraviolet light and
X-rays.(Yoon et al., Applied Physics Letters, 15 January 2000.)

CORRECTION.  The correct acronym for the rainfall measuring
satellite (Update 518) is TRMM (not TRIM), and its correct
website is http://trmm.gsfc.nasa.gov/  




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jan 14 09:40:59 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:40:59 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Doc Up
Message-ID: <200101141748.MAA00538@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


NSA's "NACSEM 5112 NONSTOP Evaluation Techniques,"
Reprinted July 1987, released under FOIA:

  http://cryptome.org/nacsem-5112.htm  (196K, 3 images)

About half of the >100-page document has been redacted, 
so brace for the mangle.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jan 14 15:04:42 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 15:04:42 -0800
Subject: FWD: Dell, Unisys and Microsoft -- DUMvoting 1.0!
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010114150442.0255eb00@idiom.com>


Forwarded from the RISKS Digest.
---------------------------------



From bzellner at socal.rr.com  Mon Jan 15 00:56:55 2001
From: bzellner at socal.rr.com (Bryan Zellner)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:56:55 -0800
Subject: <no subject>
Message-ID: <B687FB56.9D%bzellner@socal.rr.com>


I don't know if you will receive this, but you are a bunch of the sickest
motherfuckers out there. 




From asubmachinegun at mail777.net.cn  Sun Jan 14 17:33:15 2001
From: asubmachinegun at mail777.net.cn (asubmachinegun at mail777.net.cn)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 01:33:15 +0000
Subject: earn while you learn
Message-ID: <753h7a12x1fy4anlju8h.4d772uoq4r1uxk@nkyot.babit.com>


Internet/Web Page Design Training University
is seeking Commercial Web Design Specialists NOW!
Earn BIG $$$ while you learn!
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4) Career assistance and placement help just for the asking.
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7) An enjoyable interactive, self-paced, self-taught, at-home system!
8) Teaches you how to effectively create high paying web sites quickly
9) Our University instructors become "Personal Trainers".

Our dynamic "Quick Start" trademarked program can teach you how
to build professional results-oriented commercial web sites
in hours instead of days!

Students receive a package including fully functional,
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This package alone, has an estimated retail value to the student
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Guaranteed placement assistance is part of the total philosophy too!
Students successfully finishing this intense, hands-on training
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(REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS)
This mailing is done by an independent marketing company.
We respect your online privacy and apologize if you have
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Please do not use the reply to this e-mail, an e-mail reply
cannot be read! If you would like to be removed from our mailing
list just click below and send us a remove request email.

(To Be Removed)




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Jan 15 01:24:57 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:24:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: <no subject>
In-Reply-To: <B687FB56.9D%bzellner@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0101150324410.14194-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Bryan Zellner wrote:

> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:56:55 -0800
> From: Bryan Zellner <bzellner at socal.rr.com>
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: <no subject>
> 
> I don't know if you will receive this, but you are a bunch of the sickest
> motherfuckers out there. 

Well, Thank You! 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Jan 14 19:23:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 04:23:02 +0100
Subject: Patches to make PGP 6.58 compile (and work) under Redhat 6.2
Message-ID: <9b3fbe02996593cb4075fb1eeb7ff322@remailer.privacy.at>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 12 Jan 2001 21:46:51 GMT
From: Ian Goldberg <iang at cs.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp
Subject: Patches to make PGP 6.58 compile (and work) under Redhat 6.2

So I've spent quite a while tracking down why the source code for PGP 6.58
under Linux (Redhat 6.2):

a) doesn't compile, and
b) when I get it to compile, produces encrypted messages that the
   standard binary can't read

Len Sassaman and I finally got it working yesterday.  Here's a patch
to make PGP 6.58 both compile *and work* under Redhat 6.2:

diff -urN pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c
--- pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c	Mon Oct 13 21:48:14 1997
+++ pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c	Thu Jan 11 20:36:06 2001
@@ -275,6 +275,7 @@
 /* Some macros used in the encryption/decryption code */
 #define ROL(x,r) ((x)<<(r) | (x)>>(32-(r)))
 
+#ifdef USE_BROKEN_GCC_ASM
 #ifdef __GNUC__
 #if __i386__
 /* Redefine using GCC inline assembler */
@@ -284,6 +285,7 @@
 	__asm__("rol %%cl,%0" : "=g" (_y) : "0" (x), "c" (r)); _y;})
 #endif /* __i386__ */
 #endif /* __GNUC__ */
+#endif
 
 #define F1(x,xkey,i) (ROL((xkey)[2*(i)] + (x), (xkey)[2*(i)+1]))
 #define F2(x,xkey,i) (ROL((xkey)[2*(i)] ^ (x), (xkey)[2*(i)+1]))
diff -urN pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c
--- pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c	Fri Aug  6 16:56:49 1999
+++ pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c	Thu Jan 11 20:36:47 2001
@@ -424,7 +424,7 @@
  * #define UMULH_32(r,a,b) (r) = 0
  */
 #ifndef UMULH_32
-#if defined(__GNUC__) && defined(__i386__)
+#if defined(__GNUC__) && defined(__i386__) && defined(USE_BROKEN_GCC_ASM)
 /* Inline asm goodies */
 #define UMULH_32(r,a,b) __asm__("mull %2" : "=d"(r) : "%a"(a), "mr"(b) : "ax")
 #elif HAVE64
diff -urN pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp
--- pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp	Tue Mar  9 21:52:17 1999
+++ pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp	Thu Jan 11 20:43:33 2001
@@ -5,6 +5,7 @@
 	$Id: PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp,v 1.2 1999/03/10 02:52:17 heller Exp $
 ____________________________________________________________________________*/
 #include <string.h>
+#include <stdlib.h>
 
 #include "pgpDialogs.h"
 #include "pgpKeyServerDialogCommon.h"



And, as a bonus feature, here's a patch to fix a bug which prevented my
PGP scripts from working under 6.x.  The bug is this: even when +compat
and -force are given, PGP will ask you "are you sure you want to use this
key?" where 2.6 didn't.  This breaks scripts, of course.  Here's the
simple fix:


diff -urN pgpsrc-fixed/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c pgpsrc-ian1/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c
--- pgpsrc-fixed/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c	Thu Sep 30 20:10:21 1999
+++ pgpsrc-ian1/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c	Thu Jan 11 20:50:20 2001
@@ -283,6 +283,7 @@
     PGPBoolean batchmode = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_BATCHMODE, &pri, &err );
     PGPBoolean verbose = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_VERBOSE, &pri, &err );
     PGPBoolean quietmode = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_NOOUT, &pri, &err);
+    PGPBoolean force = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_FORCE, &pri, &err);
     PGPKeySetRef tmpset;
 
     err = PGPNewEmptyKeySet( toSet, &tmpset );
@@ -317,7 +318,7 @@
         if(verbose)
             pgpShowKeyValidity( filebPtr, key );
 
-        if( validity < kPGPValidity_Marginal ) {
+        if( validity < kPGPValidity_Marginal && !force) {
             char useridstr[ kPGPMaxUserIDSize ];
             PGPBoolean answer;
             err = pgpGetUserIDStringFromKey( key, useridstr );


Now all my scripts work again!  Yay!

   - Ian




From nobody at dizum.com  Sun Jan 14 19:50:08 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 04:50:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Mac OS X patch for PGP 6.5.8
Message-ID: <d0c5ab4004942d754292e7d9dd9700d9@dizum.com>


begin 600 pgp658-osxclient-patch.tar.gz
M'XL("-,(8#H``W!G<#8U."UO<WAC;&EE;G0M<&%T8V at N=&%R`.Q=>Y/:N++?
M?^%3Z&13.1`P8%XSPX2MD!DF89=YU,!L=N_NUI2Q!7@#-FN;>6Q.OOOMEFS\
MP`9IDCVW;M60"9:M_K4>W6JI)2-=]WNGY_W*Y>B7[_ZQ3TVMU=K-YG>U6DT]
M:!]$K_BIU]KU[VH']7JCW6HWFFV at 5YMJ\SM2^^>R%'[6KJ<YA'PW<4S-VD&W
M+_[_Z2>?)R![<K6>+$R=O*.>1E::I\_)U';(:K92VI56Y1"H3JE.EQ/JD(9:
M)G406R4/3Z_I7VO3H4MJ>6X'[N&C;#'\.!A_`/P=7=@KI"1CVUZXQ+2 at ZA<+
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MQ$.?]]I+C^SHK:[,%H^V-#+-9(YC.NV2=4RW\(EMX6T^-J'EGA at 3-?&&<JAZ
M*\FWG>6B".QG845HD#J=&2<TPZK at UA=0[Z1W"1T3#]XW/M[=-!EZU4>'P<)>
MTWL(DCTYL.?^(.=EN2*7CT!X^<I5Q?^)D"_*\I%<*12*5V4$:%\HE`I'3/['
M*/(!A-HX;8Z&EJX8">UVU?]/X>SD<J@;E_8DE3KC&Z;P!P\W:58P>V3I)C^@
M;?=^9O#@F>DC-M26BK-KBJ'V6'^$"-,&!*:RA#C3SB(&@Z/@V&#J6HJE:S:#
M.)WO*QIXKFIH3#%-P$E'OA*@@"6GS8>:!48T2^N-L=SPTS.2YPW%S/%,2HT0
M`7\#(R5=^BK-4;`UK'!8\#3R'.PLF_!W$PB#]P+M%@I_TRU\S)XHEH:<J)J+
M!_Z,9KIF\'>I+WF+G90%A.&B&LU5_+G=V1M)DE(D;)8S69[E9A#"2I>PF"4J
M3>$P\"AEZ@)/U#<*M27H"'5<NUMB))XI at W%5WC3C\@N)*[;I_J*)1Y$DDV"O
M_WK]"!`@0(```0($"!`@0(```0($"!`@0(```0($"!`@0(```0($"!`@0(``
1`0($"!#P;\*?J+I-W@#(````
`
end




From reeza at flex.com  Mon Jan 15 08:01:09 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:01:09 -1000
Subject: Safety issue:  7.62 NATO == .308 Win   NOT!!!
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b682e4be45e8@[207.111.241.45]>
References: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010115055249.00c73ee0@flex.com>


Another quibble.  This is a safety issue, so READ it.

One of our members wrote:

 >It was introduced in 7.62 mm NATO, very, very close to .308
 >Winchester. (Some say there are headspace differences, though I have
 >used 7.62 mm NATO in my Remington 700 VSSF, ostensibly chambered for
 >.308 Winchester, and I have used .308 Winchester in my Federal Arms
 >FA-91/G3, ostensibly chambered for 7.62 mm NATO.

Here's a 7.62 NATO gun that blew up with .308 Win ammo not long ago:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html


These two cartridges are NOT the same, more here:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm

Reese




From achameloen at toughsales.com  Mon Jan 15 05:06:55 2001
From: achameloen at toughsales.com (achameloen at toughsales.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:06:55 -0500
Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!!
Message-ID: <6gfltnd0wp3.48sy8v67446c@mx10.toughsales.com>

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From info1 at networkshosts.com  Mon Jan 15 07:09:49 2001
From: info1 at networkshosts.com (info1 at networkshosts.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:09:49 -0500
Subject: MAKE WINDOWS MORE RELIABLE!!!
Message-ID: <t7nnke35twt.5g2q3j0ln86v2gj3ml7@mx03.newsalesjob.net>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan 15 11:01:33 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:01:33 -0800
Subject: Voice over OTP during WW2. 
In-Reply-To: <20010115175508.A35B735DC2@smb.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010115110133.01b126f0@idiom.com>



>In message
<F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB3E at exna07.securitydynamics.com>
>, "Trei, Peter" writes:
>>http://www.nsa.gov/wwii/papers/start_of_digital_revolution.htm
....
At 12:55 PM 1/15/01 -0500, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
>There's an exhibit on this system in the War Room museum in London.

There's also one at the NSA museum in Fort Meade.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jan 15 08:51:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:51:55 -0500
Subject: Voice over OTP during WW2.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB3E@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


http://www.nsa.gov/wwii/papers/start_of_digital_revolution.htm

Fascinating article at the NSA site about the 
heroic efforts to provide long-distance secure voice 
communications over radio.

The good folks at Bell Labs essentially invented
digitized, compressed voice, and encrypted it
using synchronized pairs of records of
random data at each end. Each terminal site
had 55 *tons* of equipment!

Apparently this astounding - and apparently 
successful - effort was mostly declassified 
back in '76, but I first heard about it in 
Stevenson's Cryptonomicon last year.

A remarkable story.

Peter Trei




From achamele0n at toughsales.com  Mon Jan 15 09:30:01 2001
From: achamele0n at toughsales.com (achamele0n at toughsales.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:30:01 -0500
Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!!
Message-ID: <3ahy3e6dd5ec.16g64b7@mx06.toughsales.com>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan 15 09:50:47 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:50:47 -0500
Subject: Bell Update
Message-ID: <200101151758.MAA22605@smtp6.mindspring.com>


According to the Jim Bell court docket of January 11:

1. Innocent victim Jim (via attorney Robert Leen) has 
made motions:

1a. To suppress (unknown what).
1b. To dismiss the indictment.
1c. To continue the trial date.
1d. To change venue.
1e. To represent himself.

Though AUSA Robb has responded to these motions none
have been ruled on, as far as I can tell.

2. Judge Jack E. Tanner (who replaced J. Kelly
Arnold), has ordered a competency exam of Jim.

3. Jack has denied a Robb motion for Jim's handwriting 
sample until the competency report is submitted.

4. Jack has ordered that disovery materials not be shown
to Jim until further notice from Jack, because, according to 
Robb, Jim stated he intends to publish such materials on the 
Internet. The discovery materials, according to Robb,
contain "voluminous private information and personal 
addresses of various individuals."

There is no indication at that the trial date of January 22, 2001, 
set in December, has changed, though the competency
exam and other proceedings would appear to have 
affected that.





From smb at research.att.com  Mon Jan 15 09:55:01 2001
From: smb at research.att.com (Steven M. Bellovin)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:55:01 -0500
Subject: Voice over OTP during WW2. 
Message-ID: <20010115175508.A35B735DC2@smb.research.att.com>


In message <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB3E at exna07.securitydynamics.com>
, "Trei, Peter" writes:
>http://www.nsa.gov/wwii/papers/start_of_digital_revolution.htm
>
>Fascinating article at the NSA site about the 
>heroic efforts to provide long-distance secure voice 
>communications over radio.
>
>The good folks at Bell Labs essentially invented
>digitized, compressed voice, and encrypted it
>using synchronized pairs of records of
>random data at each end. Each terminal site
>had 55 *tons* of equipment!
>
>Apparently this astounding - and apparently 
>successful - effort was mostly declassified 
>back in '76, but I first heard about it in 
>Stevenson's Cryptonomicon last year.

There's an exhibit on this system in the War Room museum in London.


		--Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb





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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:44:49
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Message-ID: <651.297232.707506@postmaster.look.ca>


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From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Mon Jan 15 11:06:20 2001
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:06:20 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: Safety issue:  7.62 NATO == .308 Win   NOT!!!
Message-ID: <200101151909.f0FJ9Em27363@ak47.algebra.com>


Reply from a non CPunks friend:

==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
Hummmm !

I have loaded 7,62 and .308 cartridges in my L1A1 ( FN variant made by 
Lightgow ) and in my FR8 ( spanish bolt action carbine ) without any problems.

One thing though !

When you reload a military brass, you should always, always, reduce your first 
(tests) charges of about 10%.

Reason.  The military brass is thicker, so there is less space (volume) in the 
cartridge to accomodate the powder.

Not a problem when you are using BLC-2 or other similar powder, since the full 
charge that I was using was filling the cartridge up to the neck ( 52 grains 
of powder over a 125 grain softpoint bullet).  So, if by mistake, a military 
brass would have mixed with my "federal" brass, I would have had a big mess on 
my reloading press....  and not in my face.

I always used the same technique with all the calibers that I reload, and 
always developed powerfull but safe loads.

Apart from an empty case volume, I do not see any problem using 7,62 or .308 
ammo in the same rifle.

After taking a look at the M1A1 rifle that blew up, and especially at the 
split shell and almost ejected primer, the only conclusion that I can come 
with is :
  a.. The wrong type of powder was used ( faster burning rate like pistol 
powder ) ;
  b.. Something was blocking the barrel ( pine needle, small rock, forgotten 
(!!!) cleaning cloth, etc ) preventing the bullet from exiting, and causing 
the pressure inside the barrel to exit through the weakest point of the 
rifle....OUCH !
  c.. Looking at the primer, some extraordinary pressures develop in the 
barrell !
  d.. So, if the barrel started splitting apart near the chamber, that would 
explain the split case !
Glad it wasn't my rifle...and my face !  

Regards,

===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================






From casinopartners at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 15 14:55:45 2001
From: casinopartners at yahoo.com (Michael Brittingham)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:55:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: #1 Offshore Online Casino SportsBook Partnership (LLP) Forming now!
Message-ID: <20010115225545.58382.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com>


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From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Jan 15 06:07:42 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:07:42 +0100
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm)  [was: More on G3s]
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112184700.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A63042E.F2A6CCA@ricardo.de>



ok, let's try to tackle this problem seriously, for the crypto value (or
lack thereof):



Jim Choate wrote:
> > > What makes 'your friend' an authority?
> >
> > he had the weapon in question in hand pretty much every day for several
> > years.
> 
> Yeah, says who? Does your friend even exist? Even if he does how does one
> go about proving his assertions? And why should we trust whatever
> 'reference' he passes us to?

that is a different problem that has, in fact, been answered by me
below.




> Again, you're asking for 'trust' based on authority. How would one go
> about 'authenticating' who you are? If I 'trusted' you why would I want to
> authenticate you?

you will have to trust something. then you use that something to verify
something else, that is what:

> > web-of-trust.

means.

> 
> Which doesn't work since I don't already know you. If I have trust why am
> I using the encryption? How do I know that the key you gave Fred, and that
> Fred then gave me is the key you gave Fred or the key Fred gave me?

see above. or check what web-of-trust means. for for this problem, we
have the following steps (in no specific order):

1.) verify that my friend is an authority on the issue
2.) verify that my friend actually exists
3.) verify the information exchange between you and and my friend

everything else is parts of that. for example, my person only enters the
picture as a middle man between you and my friend. if you trust me
(which you don't) then I can make steps 1 and 2 for you and all that's
left is to make sure that you receive the correct information from me,
which could be solved by signing the mail cryptographically.

since you don't trust me, you will have to either establish trust to me,
or proceed to verify these steps on your own.



> > I will authenticate my friend by having a face-to-face
> > meeting.
> 
> Really? This is based upon your assumption that the person you are meeting
> is the person who you think you are. But how do you know a MITM attack
> wasn't executed prior to your first meeting? Have you known this person
> for many years, intimitely involved in their life? If you only know them
> from the occassional party, or weekend football game then you could be
> scammed.

I've known this person for over 10 years. I'm pretty confident that any
attempts to replace him with someone else in such a way as to fool me
would be several orders of magnitude more expensive than the gain is
worth.

how you do this depends mostly on your threat-model. for this example,
the threat is small - it's not like any TLA would throw a couple million
dollars at this in order to fool you, right? ergo I can assume that a
replacement by someone who can fool me for several hours is extremely
unlikely.



> > you can authenticate my words via PGP if you want to, I can
> > sign the mail.
> 
> Which means nothing, your PGP key is no more trustworthy than your words.

dumb jim. :)
it's not meant to be any more trustworthy than my words. in fact, it's
sole purpose (in this case) is to ensure that my words are really my
words. it's part of step 3 above.



> > now as to how to authenticate whether or not my friend is what I claim
> > he is - well, I'm sure he has the appropriate documents that could be
> > checked for forgery, etc. if you insist (and pay the costs) that could
> > surely be arranged.
> 
> Which again proves nothing. I have no way to tie a packet of documents to
> a person, even if they had a photograph on them. Even if they were stamped
> with an official seal. The only way they would prove anything is if I
> authenticated not only their source but the process by which they were
> generated.

if they are stamped with an official seal (which in the case of the
military I'm quite sure they are) then you can be sure that any of 3
cases is true:

a) they are valid
b) the government (or other place of origin of the seals) is in on the
conspiracy
c) a forger with more skill than your forgery-detection method is in on
the conspiracy

in the case of a question about ammunition, both b) and c) are highly
unlikely. again, you have applied the highest possible threat model to a
case where even a medium one would be paranoia.



> Bottem line, there is no fundamentally functional authentication protocol.
> They all require a level of trust that is not appropriate if one is
> already concerned enought to use encryption.

wrong. we can solve your problem IF you present us with a list of those
things that you DO trust. from there on, trust can be extended. e.g. if
you trust your own eyes, then visiting both Tim and me can assure you
that there are two DIFFERENT entities claiming to be Tim and Tom. you
can then verify whether they really are what they claim, the method of
verification again depending on what instances you trust. for example,
if you trust the german government to keep correct records, you could
check those on me (birth certificate, etc) to verify that I am who I
claim to be.

you have also got to take the threat model into account. in the worst
case, there is no trust because you're living in The Matrix and what you
see with your own eyes doesn't even exist.

in the end, trust and verification aren't binary if you meet real life.
you can never be 100% sure that I am who I claim to be. however, you can
gradually increase your verification/trust factor by any of the
processes outlined above and/or an unlimited number of other ones.




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan 15 14:26:49 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:26:49 -0500
Subject: Photos of high-security George W. Bush inaugural preparations
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010115172641.00a37e50@mail.well.com>


This weekend I wandered along the National Mall; here are some photos of 
the preparations for the George W. Bush inauguration on Saturday:
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration-setup.html

Note the high security in response to reports of protests planned:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-5/inaugural-fence.html
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-5/capitol-building-fence.html

A cop got out of his car to tell me not to take photos of police, when I 
was on a public sidewalk next to the Capitol building:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-5/capitol-police.html

Map of parade route and police checkpoints by the Mall:
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/daily/jan01/parade.htm

Washington Post article on protests, preparations:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57682-2001Jan13.html

Excerpt: "16 federal and local law enforcement agencies led by the Secret 
Service are taking unprecedented security steps. More officers than ever 
will be on duty -- at least 6,800 -- and it will be the first inaugural 
parade in American history for which those attending must pass through 
police checkpoints."

-Declan 




From bpayne37 at home.com  Mon Jan 15 16:32:41 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:32:41 -0700
Subject: response to iranian students
Message-ID: <051001c07f53$d87c1ec0$b5ecb618@cc1041323-b.sandia1.nm.home.com>


Peter and Kelly  http://www.insightmag.com/archive/200102061.shtml

I responded.

_______________________

I'll do it.

best
http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/dallas.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Iran Daneshjoo Organization <iranstudents at hotmail.com>
To: bpayne37 at home.com <bpayne37 at home.com>
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: spy sting


>Dear Friend,
>
>we saw some of these documents but we would like your commentary about what
>happened and all circumstances so we can post it on our website but as well
>as a report to the mailing lists.
>
>With thanks
>
>On behalf of SMCCDI
>
>A. Zoubin ( Information Committee)
>www.iran-daneshjoo.org
>
>>From: bill payne <bpayne37 at home.com>
>>To: iranstudents at hotmail.com
>>Subject: spy sting
>>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:20:39 -0700
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html
>>
>>Better things to do than this rotten spy stuff
>>
>>best
>>http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/
>>






From Mary_Ellen_Zurko at iris.com  Mon Jan 15 15:19:53 2001
From: Mary_Ellen_Zurko at iris.com (Mary_Ellen_Zurko at iris.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:19:53 -0500
Subject: NSPW 2001 CFP
Message-ID: <OF72D10CD1.6520A5DD-ON852569D5.007F5EC2@iris.com>


========================================================================
                            Call For Papers
                  New Security Paradigms Workshop 2001
                    An ACM/SIGSAC sponsored workshop
                         11 - 13 September 2001
                       Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA
                           http://www.nspw.org
========================================================================

2001 is the tenth anniversary of the New Security Paradigms Workshop
(NSPW), which has provided a productive and highly interactive forum for
innovative new approaches to computer security. The workshop offers a
constructive environment where experienced researchers and practitioners
work alongside newer participants in the field.  The result is a unique
opportunity to exchange ideas. NSPW 2001 will take place September 11 -
13, 2001 at the Cloudcroft Lodge, Cloudcroft, New Mexico, 20 miles from
Alamogordo/White Sands.

In order to preserve the small, focused nature of the workshop,
participation is limited to authors of accepted papers and conference
organizers. Because we expect new paradigms we accept wide-ranging
topics in information security. Any paper that presents a significant
shift in thinking about difficult security issues or builds on a
previous shift is welcomed.

NSPW is highly interactive in nature. Authors are encouraged to present
ideas that might be considered risky in some other forum. All
participants are charged with providing feedback in a constructive
manner. The resulting brainstorming environment has proven to be an
excellent medium for furthering the development of these ideas. Many
authors have mentioned that they received more useful feedback and ideas
than from any other conference. The proceedings, published after the
workshop, have consistently benefited from the inclusion of workshop
feedback.

What makes a paper acceptable for NSPW? While we reject plenty of
excellent papers that would do very well at other venues, our eclectic
program committee particularly looks for new paradigms, innovative
approaches to older problems, early thinking on new topics that are not
necessarily fully polished, and controversial issues that might not make
it into other conferences but deserve to have their try at shaking and
breaking the mold. Conversely, a great paper that does not have a new
paradigm, does not challenge the status quo, or does not critique an
older paradigm will almost certainly get rejected.

To participate, please submit your paper, justification, and attendance
statement, preferably via e-mail, to both Program Chairs -- Brenda
Timmerman <btimmer at ecs.csun.edu> and Darrell Kienzle <DKienzle at NAI.com>
-- by Friday, March 30, 2001 (hardcopy submissions must be received by
Friday, March 23, 2001). Further details on the required format of
submissions follow.

1 - Your Paper
You should submit either a research paper, a 5 - 10 page position paper,
or a discussion topic proposal. Submissions of any type must not have
been published elsewhere. Discussion topic proposals should include an
in-depth description of the topic to be discussed, a convincing argument
that the topic will lead to a lively discussion, and any other
supporting materials.

Softcopy submissions should be in Postscript, PDF, Word/RTF or ASCII
format. Papers may be submitted as hardcopy. To submit hardcopy, please
mail 5 (five) copies to Program Co-chair Brenda Timmerman. Please allow
adequate time for delivery.

2 - Justification
You should describe, in one page or less, why your paper is appropriate
for the New Security Paradigms Workshop. A good justification will
describe the new paradigm being proposed, explain how it is a departure
from existing theory or practice, and identify those aspects of the
status quo it challenges or rejects.

3 - Attendance Statement
You should state how many authors wish to attend the workshop. Accepted
papers require the attendance of at least one author. In order to ensure
that all papers receive equally strong feedback, all attendees are
expected to stay for the entire duration of the workshop.

The program committee will referee the papers and notify the authors of
acceptance status by June 8, 2000. We expect to be able to offer a
limited amount of financial aid to those who require it. More
information will be provided on our web site <http://www.nspw.org> as it
becomes available.


Workshop General and Vice Chairs

Steven J. Greenwald              Cristina Serban
Independent Consultant           AT&T Labs
2521 NE 135th Street             307 Middletown-Lincroft Rd.
North Miami, FL 33181 USA        Lincroft, NJ 07748 USA
Email: sjg6 at gate.net             Email: cserban at att.com
Voice: +1 (305) 944-7842         Voice: +1 (732) 576-3279
Fax: +1 (305) 489-8129           Fax: +1 (732) 576-6406


Program Committee Co-Chairs

Brenda Timmerman                 Darrell Kienzle
California State University      NAI Labs at Network Associates
18111 Nordhoff Street            8000 Westpark Dr. Suite 600
Northridge, CA 91330-8281 USA    McLean, VA 22102 USA
Email: btimmer at ecs.csun.edu      Email: DKienzle at NAI.com
Voice: +1 (818) 677-7341         Voice: 703-356-4938
Fax: +1 (818) 677-2140           Fax: 703-821-8426


Program Committee

Bob Blakley, Tivoli Systems
Thomas E. Daniels, CERIAS/Purdue University
Heather Hinton, Tivoli Systems
Jun Li, University of California, Los Angeles
Carla Marceau, Odyssey Research Associates
Cathy Meadows, Naval Research Laboratory
Ira Moskowitz, Naval Research Laboratory
Susan Pancho, University of Cambridge
Kai Rannenberg, Microsoft Research, Cambridge
Emilia Rosti, Universita` degli Studi di Milano
Sami Saydjari, SRI International
Abe Singer, University of California, San Diego
John Michael Williams, USA
Bradley J. Wood, SRI International

Local Arrangements
John McHugh, SEI/CERT, +1 (412) 268-7737 <jmchugh at cert.org>

Financial Aid
Hilary Hosmer, Data Security Inc., +1 (781) 275-8231
<hosmer at datasecinc.com>
John McHugh, SEI/CERT, +1 (412) 268-7737, <jmchugh at cert.org>

Publicity
Crispin Cowan (WireX Communications, Inc.) +1 (503) 241-6575

ACM-SIGSAC Chair
Ravi Sandhu (George Mason University) +1 (703) 993-1659

Steering Committee
Bob Blakley, Steven J. Greenwald, Hilary Hosmer, Darrell Kienzle,
Catherine Meadows, Cristina Serban, Brenda Timmerman, Mary Ellen Zurko




From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Jan 15 11:47:54 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:47:54 -0000
Subject: Aquecimento em sua casa !
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 15 18:05:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:05:53 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Playing an FPS for Money?
Message-ID: <3A63AC81.A1405D56@ssz.com>


Now, here's a micro-mint app if there ever was one...

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/15/1741238.shtml


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 15 18:27:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:27:15 -0600
Subject: The Register
Message-ID: <3A63B183.3D2C436E@ssz.com>


Where has America gone?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16107.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jogadmail at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 15 05:00:10 2001
From: jogadmail at yahoo.com (FBA systems)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:00:10 +0800
Subject: Introducing a New Trading System      13 January 2001
Message-ID: <200101151308.FAA04575@toad.com>

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From poorboy at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 15 22:00:50 2001
From: poorboy at hotmail.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:00:50
Subject: Save up to 40%
Message-ID: <200101160256.f0G2uHm03319@ak47.algebra.com>


Hi,
  
   You can save up to 40% on over 3,000 GREAT Gifts for your self,
or show the catalog to your friends, relatives, co-workers to make a
great profit for your self.  All kinds of bird houses, garden decor, hundreds
of glass creations, wildlife creations, contemporary sculptures, collect of 
dolls, porcelain humming birds, wild elphants, collection of angels, candle
holders, fine jewelry, wooden clocks, artistry of wood, and so much more.

Send $7.00 to cover cost of catalog and shipping, which is refundable on 
your first $50.00 order. 

Send to Richard Weaver , P.O. Box 67, St.Johnsville, NY 13452

This is for real, where you can save on Great Gifts for your self and anybody
you want to show your catalog to. 

I'am a single parent trying to stay home to be with my Two children, and not
shipping them off to a strange person each morning, not knowing if my children will
be alright when I pick them up. So I made a decision, drew out all my savings
and taking a chance that I can make a living at home and watch my children
grow up and be with their father. So if you find it in your heart, send for the catalog
and look to see if any of the 3000 Great Gifts you might like to buy., thank you.
And may God Bless you and your family.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 15 21:31:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:31:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: early registration deadline for Financial Cryptography '01 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010115233119.11798D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:01:09 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>, dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    e$@vmeng.com, mac-crypto at vmeng.com, cryptography at c2.net,
    coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: early registration deadline for Financial Cryptography '01


--- begin forwarded text



From info1 at networkshosts.com  Mon Jan 15 22:02:36 2001
From: info1 at networkshosts.com (info1 at networkshosts.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:02:36 -0500
Subject: BOOST WINDOWS OPERATING SYSTEM!
Message-ID: <gj0okt1ycsbh33j.1j280@mx16.newsalesjob.net>


Dear Windows User,

Now you can boost the reliability of ordinary Windows ME, 95 and 98 to
nearly the level of Windows NT or 2000, Microsoft's professional and 
industrial version of Windows.

The new WinFix 4.4 is a very effective way to improve the reliability of
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WinFix is very safe, because it operates completely independent of Windows.

http://www4.newsalesjob.net/comph to find out more about WinFix,
the safest, most effective way to keep you working, by keeping your PC
working non-stop.


Arlen Dixon, CEO

Westwood Software Marketing


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This announcement is being sent to PC users who asked to be kept
informed about new developments in Windows(tm) technology.

To be removed from our mailing list, go to the Email-us page


OR

To be removed

mailto:remove at www4.newsalesjob.net?Subject=REMOVE






From R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl  Mon Jan 15 17:40:21 2001
From: R.Hirschfeld at cwi.nl (R. Hirschfeld)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 02:40:21 +0100 (MET)
Subject: early registration deadline for Financial Cryptography '01
Message-ID: <mailman.353.1576007489.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Just a reminder that the next few hours are the last chance to
register for the FC01 conference for the early registration fee.
After that the price will increase by $150.

A preliminary program is available on the conference website,
http://fc01.ai.

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com  Tue Jan 16 03:33:08 2001
From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 03:33:08 -0800
Subject: Freeware barcode scanner utility
Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06766A@MISSERVER>

Many of you may be familiar with the cuecat barcode scanner being given away
at Radio Shack and elsewhere. It reads most types of barcodes including UPC,
ISBN and even the tracking numbers on UPS packages. The software that comes
with the cuecat is supposed to be snoopware--it is designed to send
everything you scan to an internet database, which points you to a web site
related to the product you just scanned. I never installed the driver
software, but instead wrote a VB program that reads the output of the
scanner, displays the data in a text box, and optionally automatically
copies it to the clipboard without generating any network traffic. Enjoy!

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From Tom.Gadd at telegraph-info.co.uk  Mon Jan 15 20:06:18 2001
From: Tom.Gadd at telegraph-info.co.uk (Sport)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 04:06:18 -0000
Subject: SPORT.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK IS GIVING AWAY PLAYSTATION 2 CONSOLES
Message-ID: <478A6CB58FE8D411BCA10002B31630B928E4A1@JENNA>

Dear Joe Cypherpunk

We have recently launched sport.telegraph.co.uk, our new sports channel
dedicated to providing the best online sports coverage from our team of
award-winning journalists.

The new channel will cover more than 50 sports, and has many new features to
provide even better coverage of sporting events from the UK and around the
world.

To celebrate our launch we are giving away four Sony PlayStation 2 consoles.

To win, simply follow this link to
<http://www.telegraph-info.co.uk/default.asp?S=297145&C=1001>
sport.telegraph.co.uk and register for our new services before February 12th
2001*. (*Terms and conditions apply)

Registering with
<http://www.telegraph-info.co.uk/default.asp?S=297145&C=1001>
sport.telegraph.co.uk will also give you access to:

	Email bulletins
Personalised headlines and content
Interactive statistics
Clipboard to save articles
Bookmarks for your favourite websites
Online Betting

Forthcoming attractions will include video and audio streaming of live
sporting events and celebrity interviews.

I hope you enjoy the many new features we have introduced and I look forward
to your comments.


Yours faithfully

Tom Gadd
Channel Head for sport.telegraph.co.uk

****************************************************************************
**********************
We apologise if you have received this email by mistake. To stop receiving
future emails from sport.telegraph.co.uk, please send an email to "
Unsubscribe at telegraph-info.co.uk <mailto:unsubscribe at telegraph-info.co.uk> "
with unsubscribe in the subject line.
****************************************************************************
**********************

 

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Jan 16 06:18:07 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:18:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm)
In-Reply-To: <3A643CA9.FCCC7038@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010116075229.11798N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> I love it when you conflict with yourself. :)

Then in general you must hate me...

> so you trust the proof. great. if you trust the proof, and the protocol
> has just been proven, then your trust extends to the protocol. and so
> on. web-of-trust.
> 
> please don't say you don't. because if a protocol that was just proven
> by a prove you trust has not earned your trust by that procedure, then
> obviously you lied when you said you'd trust the prove.

The 'proof' IS the 'protocol'. You act as if 'proof' and 'trust' are
equivalent. They're not. I 'trust' because I know the protocol won't
'lie'. That is the 'trust' and the heart of the 'proof'.

This of course, speaking of Real World (TM), raises the question of if a
protocol even exists. In most cases it doesn't. And in many cases even if
it did only Bill G. could afford it.

Here is the heart of commercial authentication services. Raise the cost of
tampering with the system while at the same time not raising the cost of
actually doing the system. Otherwise the customers can't afford it. It's a
horse race. And it will be until every iota of information is free (fat
chance).

For your assertion to be so you still need to prove:

A trust B, B trusts C, therefore A trusts C.

After all, simply because you and I trust the protocol still doesn't mean
I trust you. It only means I believe you haven't lied in this particular
case.

Another aspect is that the 'authentication' is good only for now. The fact
that we require the protocol to be repeated each time is a priori
admission of our trust. I mean if we've authenticated them once it should
be ok for now on if we 'trust' them.

You can't because it doesn't. This proof is central to your assertion.
It's fundamentally central of 'web-of-trust'. It's why this particular web
doesn't scale well.

I trust the protocol to fail if it is tampered with because of universal
access to its base components (ie isotropic and homogenious). Something
that no amount of money, time, or political influence can change.

I use the protocol not to decide my trust but to give me a reason to opt
out of the process. Fundamentally if you have to apply any of these sorts
of protocols to an exchange a reasonable person won't want to be involved
in the first place. There is a fundamental lack of trust already extant.
The key point however is to recognize the true function of any
authentication protocol, to stop now - to drop out.

Speaking of examples of trust,

In the made-for-tv SG-1 pilot movie they must identify if the stargate is
a trap. They do this with a simple empty cleanex box. This is a great
example of 'trust' and 'authentication'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Jan 16 11:27:14 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:27:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voice over OTP during WW2. 
In-Reply-To: <20010115175508.A35B735DC2@smb.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101161123440.9240-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:

> >Apparently this astounding - and apparently 
> >successful - effort was mostly declassified 
> >back in '76, but I first heard about it in 
> >Stevenson's Cryptonomicon last year.
> 
> There's an exhibit on this system in the War Room museum in London.

Why do I have this feeling that both statements are true?

Reminds me of the Iran Contra hearings where they had "country number one"
and so on.  (Meanwhile, in the background, the Pacifica announcer in a
golf announcer-type voice is saying things like "and because of <some
foriegn paper publication>, country number one is Saudi Arabia".)

Just because something is sitting in a museum on public display does not
mean its not classified!

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan 16 11:31:22 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:31:22 -0800
Subject: could you help me??
In-Reply-To: <20010116154930.20440.qmail@nwcst337.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010116113122.01937660@idiom.com>


The Cypherpunks archives are at www.inet-one.com.
There's been occasional discussion over the last 10 years;
you should be able to search for some of it.
Also look for anything about TEMPEST (if you can limit the search
to capital letters, that should help.)

At 06:49 PM 1/16/01 EAT, dhiraj gupta wrote:
>i am studing in college and working for a project on electromagnetic
>eavesdropping.
>please would you guide me on the cicuitry and the equipment required for
>getting a model for the appratus?
>
>i would really be grateful to you for the help.
>thanx in anticipation
>dhiraj
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>
>
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From jerry at rapid5.com  Tue Jan 16 11:34:47 2001
From: jerry at rapid5.com (Jerry Talesfore)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:34:47 -0800
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
Message-ID: <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIENFCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>


Hello-

I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this job?  If you
please feel free to provide me with the individuals information ASAP.

Here is the task at hand:
CDR Team Leader (Call Detail/Data Record)
(San Jose, CA)

Description: Design, develop, test, and release CDR generation applications
in the next generation multi protocol traffic switch. Help build voice and
data convergence applications. Help in developing the product roadmap for
Rapid5 in voice and data network convergence using the next generation multi
protocol switching router. Build teams, motivate them, and energize their
enthusiasm to complete the delivery of the first generation of products from
Rapid5 and beyond.

Requirements: Many years of management experience in building and directing
a team of software engineers. Proven track record of successful product
delivery and deployment in the telecom industry. Knowledge of several CDR
generation technologies: AMA, BAF, etc. Experience in developing CDR
generation application for new generation telecom switches. You will have a
distinct edge over the other candidates if you possess: Experience working
in a small company or a start-up.  Previous development experience for CDR
software integration for carrier-class telecommunications equipment.
Experience in evaluating and integrating 3rd party CDR generation tools.

Thanks,
Jerry Talesfore
Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
w(408)519-6753
c(408)464-1640




From jerry at rapid5.com  Tue Jan 16 11:34:48 2001
From: jerry at rapid5.com (Jerry Talesfore)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:34:48 -0800
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
Message-ID: <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDMENFCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>


Hello-

I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this job?  If you
please feel free to provide me with the individuals information ASAP.

Here is the task at hand:
CDR Team Leader (Call Detail/Data Record)
(San Jose, CA)

Description: Design, develop, test, and release CDR generation applications
in the next generation multi protocol traffic switch. Help build voice and
data convergence applications. Help in developing the product roadmap for
Rapid5 in voice and data network convergence using the next generation multi
protocol switching router. Build teams, motivate them, and energize their
enthusiasm to complete the delivery of the first generation of products from
Rapid5 and beyond.

Requirements: Many years of management experience in building and directing
a team of software engineers. Proven track record of successful product
delivery and deployment in the telecom industry. Knowledge of several CDR
generation technologies: AMA, BAF, etc. Experience in developing CDR
generation application for new generation telecom switches. You will have a
distinct edge over the other candidates if you possess: Experience working
in a small company or a start-up.  Previous development experience for CDR
software integration for carrier-class telecommunications equipment.
Experience in evaluating and integrating 3rd party CDR generation tools.

Thanks,
Jerry Talesfore
Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
w(408)519-6753
c(408)464-1640
www.rapid5.com
jerry at rapid5.com




From carskar at netsolve.net  Tue Jan 16 10:56:24 2001
From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:56:24 -0600
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm) - rhetorical bogosity
Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B4@cobra.netsolve.net>

>From a rhetorical standpoint, this argument is completely bogus. If you want
to be reckless with logic, then you might be able to say that in a perfect
world, trust of the proof may result in implicit trust of that's proof's
application to an ideal (though this is technically flawed), but the trust
is not transitive, nor commutative. Trust of a proof may result in trust of
a proven concept, but the two are not indistinguishable. Further, the
colloquial connotation of the word trust, which seems to me to be the major
rhetorical nightmare here, appears subjective, and thus hard as hell to do
anything with from a logical standpoint. Attempting to make a shaky logical
argument about someone else's trust (in the colloquial sense) of anything
may indicate some properties of the subject's method of assigning trust with
which I am not at all comfortable. Defining trust in this sense would
require a massive amount of data from the subject, which I (for one) am
unwilling to collect. Might we, instead, ask the subject how their trust
differs between proof and protocol, and inquire about the potential
differences in trust assignments? Granted, this list is a bogon sink.

Sorry Jim, the devil made me do it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom [mailto:tom at ricardo.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:14 AM
> Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Re: authenticating Real Life(tm)
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > > so you trust the proof. great. if you trust the proof, 
> and the protocol
> > > has just been proven, then your trust extends to the 
> protocol. and so
> > > on. web-of-trust.
> > >
> > > please don't say you don't. because if a protocol that 
> was just proven
> > > by a prove you trust has not earned your trust by that 
> procedure, then
> > > obviously you lied when you said you'd trust the prove.
> > 
> > The 'proof' IS the 'protocol'. You act as if 'proof' and 'trust' are
> > equivalent. They're not. I 'trust' because I know the protocol won't
> > 'lie'. That is the 'trust' and the heart of the 'proof'.
> 
> I don't say trust and proof are identical. what I do say is that proof
> extends trust. if you trust the proof, then you can trust whatever it
> proves.
> i.e. if you trust that you do have some method to determine the truth
> value of anything I say, then that means if your method says "he says
> the truth" you can trust in what I have said. not because I said it or
> because you trust me, but because you trust the method which says I'm
> saying the truth.
> on a crypto level: if you have a protocol that can verify whether or
> not, say, a given coin of a given cyber-money is "ok" (not already
> spent, of the value it claims to be, etc.) then you can 
> accept said coin
> from me. even if you do not trust me in any other thing, you just
> created a trust in that single coin. your trust in the protocol just
> extended to a trust in the coin, by application of the protocol. you
> didn't trust the coin before, you trust it afterwards. proof was just
> the method. there's a lot of trust that exists without proof (some of
> which you mentioned in your last mail).
> 
> 
> 
> > For your assertion to be so you still need to prove:
> > 
> > A trust B, B trusts C, therefore A trusts C.
> 
> while I did say that, I also wrote a lengthy clarification about it.
> please refer to the full claim, not a single, selective quote 
> which has
> a significantly different meaning.
> 
> the full claim was:
> 
> ===quote start===
> if A==B and B==C then A==C
> 
> if replace == with "trust". if A trusts B and B trusts C then A can
> trust C. that's a gross oversimplification, so please don't start any
> nitpicking. I said a couple of words about trust not being 
> binary in the
> last mail. in essence, the == should read "total, complete, absolute
> trust in everything", something that I doubt you'd see 
> anywhere in real
> life. the more precise formula would be:
> 
> A trusts B (minus margin of mistrust) 
> and B trusts C (minus margin of mistrust)
> therefore A trusts C (minus (margin of mistrust AB * margin 
> of mistrust
> BC) )
> ===quote end===
> 
> now that's a slightly different thing, don't you think? the 
> mistrust in
> the AC case can be quite large, not zero as your selective quote makes
> believe.
> 
> 
> > After all, simply because you and I trust the protocol 
> still doesn't mean
> > I trust you. It only means I believe you haven't lied in 
> this particular
> > case.
> 
> that is exactly what I mean by "margin of mistrust" above. 
> you may trust
> me with taking care of your dog for a week while you don't trust me
> taking care of your wife for an afternoon - that is EXACTLY 
> what I mean
> when I say that "trust in real life is not binary".
> 
> 
> > I use the protocol not to decide my trust but to give me a 
> reason to opt
> > out of the process. Fundamentally if you have to apply any 
> of these sorts
> > of protocols to an exchange a reasonable person won't want 
> to be involved
> > in the first place. There is a fundamental lack of trust 
> already extant.
> 
> bullshit. the protocol just needs to be simple enough. returning to my
> cyber-money example above, we DO have a protocol of verification of
> physical money in real life. it's not perfect, but it works reasonably
> well. it works by having specific coins or bills for money so that by
> visual identification and verification you can accept money 
> from a total
> stranger in good faith.
> yes, forgery does exist. as I've said a couple dozen times so 
> far: there
> are no perfect protocols and no absolute trust in real life. but guess
> what, civilization works more or less ok without, unless you 
> are jim and
> apply the maximum threat model to every step of your life.
> 
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From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Jan 16 04:20:57 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:20:57 +0100
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010115171857.446s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A643CA9.FCCC7038@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> > you will have to trust something. then you use that something to verify
> > something else, that is what:
> 
> No, I don't have to trust at all. I should have a protocol that I can
> PROVE (which is distinct from trust). I trust the proof. 

I love it when you conflict with yourself. :)
so you trust the proof. great. if you trust the proof, and the protocol
has just been proven, then your trust extends to the protocol. and so
on. web-of-trust.

please don't say you don't. because if a protocol that was just proven
by a prove you trust has not earned your trust by that procedure, then
obviously you lied when you said you'd trust the prove.



> > means.
> 
> Which means you feel comfortable enough with people you know to give them
> your key. That doesn't mean that because I know you and trust you that I
> should trust them. An enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend. And a friend of
> a friend is not my friend.

the PGP web-of-trust is a specialized version of the above. if you trust
me, and I say that key X really belongs to person Y, then your trust
extends to the validity of the key. not further, it doesn't mean you
trust person Y, it just means that because you trust me you decide to
believe that the key really belongs to that person, because I say so.


> But then again, sharing a key with somebody you wouldn't trust with your
> wallet is probably more than a tad problematic.

we're talking PUBLIC keys here. my public key is available to anyone who
knows what "finger" means.


> > see above. or check what web-of-trust means. for for this problem, we
> > have the following steps (in no specific order):
> 
> See what above? Your making statements and then self-referencing them as
> 'proof'. Not acceptable. Make an assertion and demonstrate the flow of
> dependence. Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more acceptable
> than the first time. And it's harder to tune out, familiarity breeds
> contempt.

still didn't get it? ok, so here's the same in math form:

if A==B and B==C then A==C

if replace == with "trust". if A trusts B and B trusts C then A can
trust C. that's a gross oversimplification, so please don't start any
nitpicking. I said a couple of words about trust not being binary in the
last mail. in essence, the == should read "total, complete, absolute
trust in everything", something that I doubt you'd see anywhere in real
life. the more precise formula would be:

A trusts B (minus margin of mistrust) 
and B trusts C (minus margin of mistrust)
therefore A trusts C (minus (margin of mistrust AB * margin of mistrust
BC) )




> Bottem line, if Bob trusts you, and you trust me, is no reason for Bob to
> trust me (or me to trust Bob). Trust/Reputation is NOT transitive (that's
> actually why it's worthless).

why not? please tell.



> > I've known this person for over 10 years. I'm pretty confident that any
> > attempts to replace him with someone else in such a way as to fool me
> > would be several orders of magnitude more expensive than the gain is
> > worth.
> 
> How do you know that he hasn't been undercover for 10 years? There are
> cases of undercover cops being submerged for years, spies for much longer.
> How would you KNOW. Maybe he's been making 1am burst transmissions to the
> 'enemy' for this entire time. Maybe his 'wife' or 'SO' is his contact
> point. How well do you know THEM? How well do you know his other friends?
> Would you trust them with your key? Does he trust them with access to the
> key? If so, even if you don't trust them, they've got it.

again, you're applying the wrong threat model. if this were about
whether or not I should tell him about the new superweapon that I've
been developing in my function as a super-secret scientist, your threat
model might apply. since we're talking about a simple question about
ammunition here, your threat model is way off.
in german, we say "mit kanonen auf spatzen schiessen" - roughly
translated as "firing cannons on sparrows". 


> > how you do this depends mostly on your threat-model. for this example,
> > the threat is small - it's not like any TLA would throw a couple million
> > dollars at this in order to fool you, right? ergo I can assume that a
> > replacement by someone who can fool me for several hours is extremely
> > unlikely.
> 
> How do yo know that THIS is their target? How do you know that you haven't
> just stumbled into it? How do you know they aren't using YOU for cover?
> How do you know that using you will not further the gain?

I don't. since I'm not omniscient, I can live with that fact. we're all
living our lifes on assumptions, or we'd be insane. maybe you should get
in touch with reality every once in a while?


> > > Which means nothing, your PGP key is no more trustworthy than your words.
> >
> > dumb jim. :)
> > it's not meant to be any more trustworthy than my words. in fact, it's
> > sole purpose (in this case) is to ensure that my words are really my
> > words. it's part of step 3 above.
> 
> If the key itself can't be trusted then I can't trust it to authenticate
> your words. If I can't trust your key any better than your words then why
> am I asking you to sign it? It clearly doesn't add security at any level.

excuse me? all the signature says is "these words were really written by
Tom". in short: it's "trust" is on a completely different level than
those of my words. I can sign a fictional story. you wouldn't trust my
words, but you could trust that they are, indeed, *my* words.



> > if they are stamped with an official seal (which in the case of the
> > military I'm quite sure they are) then you can be sure that any of 3
> > cases is true:
> 
> History is full of 'official seals' not being so official.

that would be case b) or c), depending on who's responsible.

> > a) they are valid
> > b) the government (or other place of origin of the seals) is in on the
> > conspiracy
> > c) a forger with more skill than your forgery-detection method is in on
> > the conspiracy
> 
> Or somebody stole it, or there is an accomplice with access to a
> legitimate seal to use for illegitimate uses. 

subcase of c).

> Or somebody has transient
> access to one without official access. And that ain't all the ways one
> could gain access to an 'official' seal besides the three you listed.

you're missing the point. this is not about a complete list of all
possible ways to get an official seal on some document.


> > wrong. we can solve your problem IF you present us with a list of those
> > things that you DO trust.
> 
> Who says trust has to be about 'things'? 

"things" in the broadest possible sense of "pretty much anything".


> I trust those things which can be
> independently verified by an arbitrary 3rd party or a process which I can
> impliment myself.
> 
> In short, things that can 'prove' other things must be at least isotropic
> and homogenious.
> 
> I trust the sun will rise, I trust that we'll all die. I trust that
> politicians are inherently crooked. I trust that what happend yesterday
> will not be exactly the same as today. I trust that people are both good
> and bad, as a result the most good person can in the right circumstances
> do the most heinous act (which on another line is ultimately the reason
> that the way we treat our prisoners is a moral and ethical failure of the
> 1st magnitude).

lots of that is not trust, but believe, but let's ignore that. :)


> Demonstrate how you authenticate your friend, his material, the channel
> he gave it to you with, that I should trust you, and the channel you
> provide it to me with. What sorts of things do YOU need to succesfully
> authenticate anything?

ok, let's focus:

the question was: what kind of ammunition does the G3 use?
the proposed solution was: I know someone who should know, I can ask him
and relay the answer.

your problem is: you trust neither me nor - should he even exist - the
one I proposed to ask.

solution to your problem: we need a protocol that you can verify
("prove") that will in return prove that the someone exists and does
know what he's supposed to know and that he is speaking the truth. I at
this stage ignore the "official document" crap and every other actual
means of verification, since you wouldn't trust them anyhow.

as a matter of fact, I think it would be much more simpler if you'd just
buy a G3 and check for yourself.


> 
> > from there on, trust can be extended. e.g. if
> 
> Demonstrate trust is transitive. That if I trust Bill and you trust me,
> then you should trust Bill.

correct if trust is binary. since it's not, the trust I have in you
would have to include a "grant option", i.e. if I trust you to have
friends that are trustworthy, then yes I would trust bill.


> I use PGP as a one-shot transaction security generator. I give you a key
> you're the only one who got it (unless you give/lose it to somebody) and I
> don't share keys and they retire in the short term (usually after the one
> shot use). I never send keys over the network.

secret keys - of course not, that's why they're called "secret".

you've never sent a public key over the network?




From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 16 12:23:03 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:23:03 -0500
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
References: <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIENFCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>
Message-ID: <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Talesfore" <jerry at rapid5.com>
> I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this
job?  If you
> please feel free to provide me with the individuals information
ASAP.

His name is Jim Choate; ravage at ssz.com.





From mean-green at hushmail.com  Tue Jan 16 16:06:54 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:06:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hatch Pledges to Keep Online Music Accessible
Message-ID: <200101170006.QAA18109@industry-sun-2.digisle.net>




======================================================================
This article from 
THE STANDARD, Intelligence for the Internet Economy,
has been sent to you on behalf of mean-green at hushmail.com
======================================================================


 Sender's comments: 


---------------------------------

"Hatch Pledges to Keep Online Music Accessible"
The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee vows to ensure that digital music won't be controlled by a few powerful distributors. 
By Elizabeth Wasserman 

http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,21388,00.html?mail





FREE NEWSLETTERS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From 007 at gala.net  Tue Jan 16 05:37:43 2001
From: 007 at gala.net (007)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:37:43 +0300
Subject: Data Cracer
Message-ID: <200101161340.FAA01976@toad.com>


_ dsl`~ bqel ono`d`khq| opncp`ll{, Jnrnp{e unrekh 
  p`anr`r| rnk|jn nopedekemmne jnkhweqrbn dmei. R`j 
bnr dk sqlhpemh r`jhu opncp`ll qsyeqrbser 
l`kem|j` opncp`llj` ............... 

ee lnfmn qj`w`r| bnr qdeq|



                     www.dowland23.newmail.ru




From cristina.navarro at algor.es  Tue Jan 16 07:55:35 2001
From: cristina.navarro at algor.es (Cristina Navarro)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:55:35 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <008c01c07fd5$15834560$660aa8c0@algor.es>


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From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Jan 16 08:14:00 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:14:00 +0100
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010116075229.11798N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A647348.412E9533@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> > so you trust the proof. great. if you trust the proof, and the protocol
> > has just been proven, then your trust extends to the protocol. and so
> > on. web-of-trust.
> >
> > please don't say you don't. because if a protocol that was just proven
> > by a prove you trust has not earned your trust by that procedure, then
> > obviously you lied when you said you'd trust the prove.
> 
> The 'proof' IS the 'protocol'. You act as if 'proof' and 'trust' are
> equivalent. They're not. I 'trust' because I know the protocol won't
> 'lie'. That is the 'trust' and the heart of the 'proof'.

I don't say trust and proof are identical. what I do say is that proof
extends trust. if you trust the proof, then you can trust whatever it
proves.
i.e. if you trust that you do have some method to determine the truth
value of anything I say, then that means if your method says "he says
the truth" you can trust in what I have said. not because I said it or
because you trust me, but because you trust the method which says I'm
saying the truth.
on a crypto level: if you have a protocol that can verify whether or
not, say, a given coin of a given cyber-money is "ok" (not already
spent, of the value it claims to be, etc.) then you can accept said coin
from me. even if you do not trust me in any other thing, you just
created a trust in that single coin. your trust in the protocol just
extended to a trust in the coin, by application of the protocol. you
didn't trust the coin before, you trust it afterwards. proof was just
the method. there's a lot of trust that exists without proof (some of
which you mentioned in your last mail).



> For your assertion to be so you still need to prove:
> 
> A trust B, B trusts C, therefore A trusts C.

while I did say that, I also wrote a lengthy clarification about it.
please refer to the full claim, not a single, selective quote which has
a significantly different meaning.

the full claim was:

===quote start===
if A==B and B==C then A==C

if replace == with "trust". if A trusts B and B trusts C then A can
trust C. that's a gross oversimplification, so please don't start any
nitpicking. I said a couple of words about trust not being binary in the
last mail. in essence, the == should read "total, complete, absolute
trust in everything", something that I doubt you'd see anywhere in real
life. the more precise formula would be:

A trusts B (minus margin of mistrust) 
and B trusts C (minus margin of mistrust)
therefore A trusts C (minus (margin of mistrust AB * margin of mistrust
BC) )
===quote end===

now that's a slightly different thing, don't you think? the mistrust in
the AC case can be quite large, not zero as your selective quote makes
believe.


> After all, simply because you and I trust the protocol still doesn't mean
> I trust you. It only means I believe you haven't lied in this particular
> case.

that is exactly what I mean by "margin of mistrust" above. you may trust
me with taking care of your dog for a week while you don't trust me
taking care of your wife for an afternoon - that is EXACTLY what I mean
when I say that "trust in real life is not binary".


> I use the protocol not to decide my trust but to give me a reason to opt
> out of the process. Fundamentally if you have to apply any of these sorts
> of protocols to an exchange a reasonable person won't want to be involved
> in the first place. There is a fundamental lack of trust already extant.

bullshit. the protocol just needs to be simple enough. returning to my
cyber-money example above, we DO have a protocol of verification of
physical money in real life. it's not perfect, but it works reasonably
well. it works by having specific coins or bills for money so that by
visual identification and verification you can accept money from a total
stranger in good faith.
yes, forgery does exist. as I've said a couple dozen times so far: there
are no perfect protocols and no absolute trust in real life. but guess
what, civilization works more or less ok without, unless you are jim and
apply the maximum threat model to every step of your life.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Jan 16 15:17:27 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:17:27 -0600
Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Computer Scientist Solves Old Salesman Problem
Message-ID: <3A64D687.F21A5FEF@ssz.com>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010116075125.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From carskar at netsolve.net  Tue Jan 16 15:30:28 2001
From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:30:28 -0600
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm) - rhetorical bogosity
Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B6@cobra.netsolve.net>

This still seems sketchy. I will take a stab at definition, and we can work
from there. Keep in mind that my definitions are rough draft and completely
off the cuff. 

Let us say that "trust" is the reliance of any existent upon the integrity
of any other existent.

Let us say that "integrity" is the state of subject when the value of each
element within the set of all observable elements of subject is a member of
the pre-determined element-respective statical set of values. 

Let us say that a "proof" is the evidence or argument by which an assertion
is shown to be true.

Are these definitions acceptable for the purposes of this discussion?
Suggestions?


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom [mailto:tom at ricardo.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 2:11 PM
> Cc: 'cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com'
> Subject: Re: RE: Re: authenticating Real Life(tm) - 
> rhetorical bogosity
> 
> 
> 
> "Carskadden, Rush" wrote:
> > 
> > From a rhetorical standpoint, this argument is completely bogus. If
> > you want to be reckless with logic, then you might be able 
> to say that
> > in a perfect world, trust of the proof may result in 
> implicit trust of
> > that's proof's application to an ideal (though this is technically
> > flawed), but the trust is not transitive, nor commutative. 
> Trust of a
> > proof may result in trust of a proven concept, but the two are not
> > indistinguishable. 
> 
> that is a good point, but I am not quite convinced. let's 
> first say that
> of course a proof does not create trust in anything but the subject of
> it. so if I prove that I am me that means you can trust THAT 
> part of my
> words, but not necessarily anything else.
> 
> 
> > Further, the colloquial connotation of the word
> > trust, which seems to me to be the major rhetorical nightmare here,
> > appears subjective, and thus hard as hell to do anything with from a
> > logical standpoint. 
> 
> yes, we should really define the words we are using first.
> 
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From mktgdatabase at sybase.com  Tue Jan 16 14:37:13 2001
From: mktgdatabase at sybase.com (Pamela George VP Corporate Marketing Sybase)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:37:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Updating Our Database
Message-ID: <68CR1851@OutgoingMessageIDHostname.Not.Defined>

We, at Sybase, are updating our marketing database and would like to verify if and how you would like us to communicate with you.  If you would prefer to not receive any further information about Sybase or its Enterprise Portal or Wireless products, please click here: http://woodchuck.sybase.com/sybase/www/Responsehandler?UID1=1079157643&UM=68&UID2=5 to immediately opt out of all further communications.

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From dhirajitis at usa.net  Tue Jan 16 18:49:30 2001
From: dhirajitis at usa.net (dhiraj gupta)
Date: 16 Jan 2001 18:49:30 EAT
Subject: could you help me??
Message-ID: <20010116154930.20440.qmail@nwcst337.netaddress.usa.net>


i am studing in college and working for a project on electromagnetic
eavesdropping.
please would you guide me on the cicuitry and the equipment required for
getting a model for the appratus?

i would really be grateful to you for the help.
thanx in anticipation
dhiraj


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From mean-green at hushmail.com  Tue Jan 16 19:02:52 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue Jan 16 19:02:52 2001
Subject: CanadaComputes.com - U.S. Web site operator wins court appeal against snooping airline
Message-ID: <200101170057.SAA04169@ollmai01.montreal.trader.net>


This message was forwarded to you from CanadaComputes.com (http://www.canadacomputes.com) by mean-green at hushmail.com.

Your friend's comments:


No comments were submitted by the user with this request.


The story referenced by your friend can be found on the CanadaComputes.com web site here:

U.S. Web site operator wins court appeal against snooping airline

Jan 11 2001 08:16:14:000AM

http://www.canadacomputes.com/v3/story/1,1017,5333,00.html







From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Jan 16 16:10:01 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:10:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: automatic security protocol generation
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101161908210.31669-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




This looks interesting, given the discussion here recently about the need
for "protocol building blocks." It's only at a basic stage, but still
promising. 

A First Step towards the Automatic Generation of Security Protocols
Adrian Perrig, Dawn Song. In Proc. of Network and Distributed System
Security NDSS 2000, February 2000. 
http://paris.cs.berkeley.edu/~perrig/projects/protgen/protgen.ps




From sparky at suba.com  Tue Jan 16 17:21:10 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:21:10 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <3A649F26.22445.210EFD@localhost>


If this is inappropriate for this list, I hope all participants will accept 
my apologies in advance, and let me know, and I will not post this 
sort of thing here again.

If any here are in opposition to the nomination of John Ashcroft to 
Attorney General, the following website allows citizens to sign a 
petition stating this: 

http://www.opposeashcroft.com

I'm not trying to get people into any arguments here.. I thought this 
might be appropriate since people here are concerned with civil 
rights. 

If this is inappropriate, again, my apologies.

sparkane




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Tue Jan 16 19:54:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:54 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <200101170355.TAA08898@sirius.infonex.com>


"Me" <commerce at home.com> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sparky" <sparky at suba.com>
> > http://www.opposeashcroft.com
> >
> > I'm not trying to get people into any arguments here.. I
> thought this
> > might be appropriate since people here are concerned with civil
> > rights.
>
> Quite right, I am very concerned.
>
> Lets examine the page:
>
> "He has voted against affirmative action and anti-discrimination
> laws, against a crucial AIDS provision."

Hmmmm... "Ashcroft has been hailed as an ally by the NRA, voting against
trigger locks and the assault weapons ban while supporting conceal and carry
laws and gun show loopholes to regulation."

> Excellent, he is clearly a firm supporter of civil liberties.

Might I second that, in this case.  Gee, maybe this website should be named
<http://www.supportashcroft.com/>; I was feeling kinda lukewarm about his
nomination until I saw it.  Thanks, sparky!

> Unfortunately, I don't see any place on your web page to voice my
> support for his nomination?

"In 1999, Ashcroft recorded radio ads urging Missouri voters to support an
NRA-sponsored ballot initiative that would have allowed almost anyone -
including convicted child molesters and stalkers - to carry concealed guns
in Missouri."

Maybe I should move to Missouri.  I've always wanted to shoot a
child molester.






From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 16 17:41:08 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:41:08 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <3A649F26.22445.210EFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <012501c08026$917bdbe0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "sparky" <sparky at suba.com>
> http://www.opposeashcroft.com
>
> I'm not trying to get people into any arguments here.. I
thought this
> might be appropriate since people here are concerned with civil
> rights.

Quite right, I am very concerned.

Lets examine the page:

"He has voted against affirmative action and anti-discrimination
laws, against a crucial AIDS provision."

Excellent, he is clearly a firm supporter of civil liberties.

Unfortunately, I don't see any place on your web page to voice my
support for his nomination?





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Tue Jan 16 18:51:43 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:51:43 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <3A649F26.22445.210EFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <3A6507B0.5009114B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


    Oh, absolutely appropriate! It's quite obvious that Asskroft is simply
step II, following Reno's step I, of our rather rapid march into the fascist
future. Sieg Heil, Herr Busch, Sieg Heil Herr Asskroft!


sparky wrote:

> If this is inappropriate for this list, I hope all participants will accept
> my apologies in advance, and let me know, and I will not post this
> sort of thing here again.
>
> If any here are in opposition to the nomination of John Ashcroft to
> Attorney General, the following website allows citizens to sign a
> petition stating this:
>
> http://www.opposeashcroft.com
>
> I'm not trying to get people into any arguments here.. I thought this
> might be appropriate since people here are concerned with civil
> rights.
>
> If this is inappropriate, again, my apologies.
>
> sparkane






From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Jan 16 12:11:18 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:11:18 +0100
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm) - rhetorical bogosity
References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B4@cobra.netsolve.net>
Message-ID: <3A64AAE6.BA312FF@ricardo.de>


"Carskadden, Rush" wrote:
> 
> From a rhetorical standpoint, this argument is completely bogus. If
> you want to be reckless with logic, then you might be able to say that
> in a perfect world, trust of the proof may result in implicit trust of
> that's proof's application to an ideal (though this is technically
> flawed), but the trust is not transitive, nor commutative. Trust of a
> proof may result in trust of a proven concept, but the two are not
> indistinguishable. 

that is a good point, but I am not quite convinced. let's first say that
of course a proof does not create trust in anything but the subject of
it. so if I prove that I am me that means you can trust THAT part of my
words, but not necessarily anything else.


> Further, the colloquial connotation of the word
> trust, which seems to me to be the major rhetorical nightmare here,
> appears subjective, and thus hard as hell to do anything with from a
> logical standpoint. 

yes, we should really define the words we are using first.




From sparky at suba.com  Tue Jan 16 21:15:03 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:15:03 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <200101170355.TAA08898@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost>


On 16 Jan 2001, at 19:54, Anonymous wrote: 

> "Me" <commerce at home.com> wrote: 
>  
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "sparky" <sparky at suba.com> 
> > > http://www.opposeashcroft.com 
> > > 
> > > I'm not trying to get people into any arguments here.. I 
> > thought this 
> > > might be appropriate since people here are concerned with 
civil 
> > > rights. 
> > 
> > Quite right, I am very concerned. 
> > 
> > Lets examine the page: 
> > 
> > "He has voted against affirmative action and anti-discrimination 
> > laws, against a crucial AIDS provision." 
>  
> Hmmmm... "Ashcroft has been hailed as an ally by the NRA, 
voting 
> against trigger locks and the assault weapons ban while 
supporting 
> conceal and carry laws and gun show loopholes to regulation." 
>  
> > Excellent, he is clearly a firm supporter of civil liberties. 
>  
> Might I second that, in this case.  Gee, maybe this website 
should be 
> named <http://www.supportashcroft.com/>; I was feeling kinda 
lukewarm 
> about his nomination until I saw it.  Thanks, sparky! 

Hey, don't mention it. But don't miss the other areas of his policies, 
like  women's rights, and such as the following: 

"He supports limits on free speech over the Internet. He supported  
legislation, later held unconstitutional, that sought to censor  
communications over the Internet. And he supported legislation to 
require  mandatory use of filtering on all computers used by 
schools and libraries  receiving federal e-rate assistance." 

Of course I realize that the freedom of citizens to bear arms is 
going to be  near and dear to many if not all participating in this 
list. But one has to  balance one issue against others. I feel that 
women's rights are especially  important in a democratic society, 
and I also feel that anyone who supports  the right to bear arms but 
also supports the removal of separation of church  and state, and 
the impositions against your speech over the internet to  which 
such a postion leads, is not worth your time. I personally would 
want  to find a better figure to symbolize and speak for my right to 
arm myself. 

sparkane 

>  
> > Unfortunately, I don't see any place on your web page to voice 
my 
> > support for his nomination? 
>  
> "In 1999, Ashcroft recorded radio ads urging Missouri voters to 
> support an NRA-sponsored ballot initiative that would have 
allowed 
> almost anyone - including convicted child molesters and stalkers 
- to 
> carry concealed guns in Missouri." 
>  
> Maybe I should move to Missouri.  I've always wanted to shoot a 
> child molester. 
>  
>  
>  
>  





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Tue Jan 16 21:23:24 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:23:24 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <3A649F26.22445.210EFD@localhost> <012501c08026$917bdbe0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <3A652B31.B5D1713B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Anonymous wrote:

> "Me" <commerce at home.com> wrote:
> Hmmmm... "Ashcroft has been hailed as an ally by the NRA, voting against
> trigger locks and the assault weapons ban while supporting conceal and carry
> laws and gun show loopholes to regulation."
>

     Anybody want to bet who will hold the title for building and filling the
most prisons --- Klinton/Reno or Busch/Asskroft?  I'm always amazed at how much
knee-jerking there is on this list, and how little thinking.
      These assholes are out to imprison all of us, the political rhetoric is
just a sham.




From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 16 22:29:46 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:29:46 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost>
Message-ID: <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "sparky" <sparky at suba.com>
> "He supports limits on free speech over the Internet. He
supported

This is bad.  But damage control is good.

If I recall, there were only 16 senators who voted against the
CDA, and most of them were in other ways broken (e.g. Ted K.).

Luckily these things keep getting tossed by the courts before the
first assault team can be assembled.

On the other hand, he has been a strong (as it gets) voice for
things such as encryption.


> also supports the removal of separation of church  and state,
and

Your separation of church and state is imaginary.  The 1st
Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

In two of the three anti-Ashcroft points listed on your website,
school vouchers and social service privitization/contracting, the
claim is silly; the ultimate recipients of funds may be
religious, but that occurs either by private choice or by judging
a religious organization by the same criteria as any other and
ignoring its theo-aspects.  Religion neutral.

Courtside, e.g.: Witters v. Washington D.S.B. or Zobrest v.
Catalina F.S.D., etc.

The third point is Ashcroft's support of a measure that would
allow individual students to, of their own choice, volition, and
organizing pray in school (or before a school football game?).

I can't understand how the courts can accept the gov't compelling
students to attend gov't educational installations for most of
the day for the first xx-years of their life by force of law, and
order them by the same to ignore the Great Pumpkin and stop that
free-exercise, without violating #1.

Go Ashcroft.

> I personally would want  to find a better figure to
> symbolize and speak for my right to arm myself.

The chance of getting John Lott nominated is pretty slim; roll
the dice again and we'll probably end up with the senior Senator
from Utah.

I've become resigned to speaking for my own right to bear arms,
symbolizing it would be good too.





From bela at goingplatinum.com  Tue Jan 16 22:43:35 2001
From: bela at goingplatinum.com (Bela Vass)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:43:35 -0500
Subject: NEW
Message-ID: <200101170644.WAA01024@toad.com>


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From abuse at microsoft.com  Wed Jan 17 02:48:34 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 02:48:34 -0800
Subject: Confirmation Receipt
Message-ID: <200101171057.EAA20632@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft.

Thank you for taking the time to report this issue to us. Microsoft 
takes internet forgeries very seriously. 

I am forwarding your issue to our Security team for investigation. There
is a possibility that they may contact you with follow-up questions. 

I appreciate your patience in this matter. 
 
 
If you have any additional questions, please let us know by replying to 
this message.

Thank you,

Leamon
Microsoft Online Customer Representative



Original Message Follows: 
-------------------------

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft.

We received your email, but other than a copy of the initial 
Confirmation Receipt we sent you previously, your email did not contain 
any information about your issue. If there is an issue we can assist you
with, please let us know.

Thank you,

Matt H.
Microsoft Online Customer Representative



Original Message Follows: 
-------------------------
From: Abuse at Microsoft <cypherpunks at ssz.com>
To:      Abuse at Microsoft <abuse at microsoft.com>
Subject: CDR: Confirmation Receipt

Thank you for your inquiry to Abuse at Microsoft.com  

Your e-mail was received on Sun, Jan 7, 2001 at 4:25 PM and will be 
handled personally by one of our Customer Service Representatives within
12 hours. Our Customer Service Representatives can answer general policy
questions, validate your support eligibility, or refer you to the 
appropriate phone, e-mail, or Web resource.

To explore online support options, please visit 
http://support.microsoft.com/directory/default.asp.

Thank you, 
Microsoft Product Support Services









From printplace2001 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 17 01:48:41 2001
From: printplace2001 at hotmail.com (Derek Sitz)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 03:48:41 -0600
Subject: 1,000 Flyers for $45.00 Free Delivery
Message-ID: <F271JWEsBk31TZ14eBa0000066f@hotmail.com>


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Thanks and Good Luck!
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_________________________________________________________________
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From cashbyfax22222 at aol.com  Tue Jan 16 12:05:13 2001
From: cashbyfax22222 at aol.com (cashbyfax22222 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 04:05:13 +0800
Subject: cash by fax info
Message-ID: <200101162127468.SM00185@fdfs908092sdf>



THIS IS THE NEW LINK.  TYPO IN THE LAST ONE.

http://www.geocities.com/cashbyfax22222/newest.html




From nexusst at email.com  Wed Jan 17 01:13:07 2001
From: nexusst at email.com (nexusst at email.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 04:13:07 -0500
Subject: send noise033
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010117041307.007c38d0@24.9.0.25>







From achamblin at linkusnow.net  Wed Jan 17 02:18:19 2001
From: achamblin at linkusnow.net (achamblin at linkusnow.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 05:18:19 -0500
Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!!
Message-ID: <85rv7ww8uktncdfa.6acd2k118i4a2m@mx13.linkusnow.net>

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From j.fulton at juno.com  Wed Jan 17 06:23:20 2001
From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 06:23:20 -0800
Subject: "REMOVE"
Message-ID: <20010117.062321.164.0.j.fulton@juno.com>



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From tigger554 at linkusnow.net  Wed Jan 17 03:38:22 2001
From: tigger554 at linkusnow.net (tigger554 at linkusnow.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 06:38:22 -0500
Subject: Miraculous Weight Loss Almost Over Night!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <6ajp5l.kyjifl7jfxgwbaya1t@mx01.linkusnow.net>

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From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jan 16 23:32:19 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 07:32:19 +0000
Subject: copyright: moral right or outdated convention
Message-ID: <E14In4t-0024T5-00@cronus.ex.ac.uk>



This is a response to Eric Flints comments in 

http://www.baen.com/library/home.htm

Eric:

While I agree with your conclusion -- that in the short term by
putting your books online that will not lose you sales, I disagree
with the statements you make to the effect that copying is immoral.
And I am not optimistic for short sighted publishers and distributors
financial well being in the longer term.  This applies more
immediately to digital media, or easily digitised media such as music,
software and video.

Firstly the issue of morailty.  You don't seem to hold borrowing or
libraries to be immoral.  The distinction between photocopying and
borrowing seems minor to me.  In both cases two people enjoy a book
that only one person paid for in a way which reimburses the author.
So photocopying is time-consuming, the result is not convenient, and
it's cheaper and more convenient for most people when they consider
their time to be worth anything to buy the book instead of copying it.
Which is why photocopying entire books is not common.  (I've seen cash
starved students do it to save a couple of bucks, though).

Copyright, and copyright enforcement (which is very patchy) are
societal conventions -- fairly recent ones too in the big picture.
They are not moral rights.

Practically, anything that is published (has left your control) is now
freely copyable.  This is clearly a statement of reality.  People pay
for convenience -- they prefer a paper copy -- and that is fine and it
will likely take some time and technological change to move away from
that.  But the coercion that the premise that copying is immoral and
must be prevented at gun point is immoral itself -- it's ultimately
threatening the copier with physical harm for copying defacto public
information.  Whether or not it's the current law -- a very weakly and
patchily enforced law -- or not is not the issue; the law is
unenforceable, and people can and will copy.  Anonymity, and privacy
technology and the distibuted and decentralised control of the
internet mean that people can do these things with impunity.

Unless we turn the internet into the biggest tracking and police state
in the history of man, where if you copy the wrong bits you'll get
hauled off to jail, the physics and economics of the internet mean
that free and convenient copying of copyrighted works will increase.

Consider for a moment what would be implied to have near 100%
electronic copy enforcement.  Privacy of any kind would have to be
outlawed on the internet.  Peoples computers and hardware would have
to be turned into paid informers against their interests.  The
escalation of copyright enforcement you talk about if it were to
happen would lead to a very undesirable society.

Another technological reality which acts against the concept of
copyright is that all attempts at computerised software and content
copyright enforcement are fundamentally flawed at a conceptual level:
if your computer can display a digital bit stream to you, it can be
recaptured and re-encoded in a format of the re-distributors
convenience.  This leads to preposterous suggestions like a monitor or
TV screen that decodes the content, or CPUs that run software that the
owner and user of the computer can't read.

Electronic copying will increase.  I don't see how it can be any other
way.  This applies especially to works which are convenient to use on
a computer: music, video.  And to works which are convenient to
digitise or are already digital.  Recreational books are more
convenient to read on paper.  Reference books perhaps more convenient
on computer (search functionality, frequent updates).  We don't see
many instances of electronic copying of books -- because it takes a
lot of time to scan, correct errors formatting etc, and the original
copier already has the book so has little incentive.  Were it to
become possible for the copier to make money from the subsequent
electronic copies made perhaps we would see it increase.

So the physics and economics of the internet space is that people will
copy and redistribute whatever they wish.  Anyone in the publishing
industries who wishes to survive and thrive in this environment needs
to adapt to this reality.  It will be entirely feasible to make money.
But the author and his distributors will need to aggresively strive to
provide their customers with convenience.  The content distributors
just have to compete with the competition -- electronic copying,
rather than viewing it as illegal pirating which they somehow have a
moral right to prevent.  And you can compete -- there are real costs
of copying (which vary depending on the type of work) -- bandwidth
costs, and the competition doesn't have unlimited bandwidth.  The
price will stabalise.  It will be possible to charge more based on
convenience as people value their time.  It may be possible to charge
a small amount more based on goodwill -- consumers willing to pay a
few cents more given equivalent convenience if they know some
proportion of that goes back to the author, producer etc.

So the distributor will need to provide fast bandwidth, make his
copies easy to find in search engines, have prominent domain names,
brand name, and negotiate deals for share of bandwidth cost,
advertising revenue with the competition.  So the key is not to fight
electronic copying, but to work with it, and use it to make money.  I
don't think many people understand this yet.  mojonation.com seem to,
but I haven't seen much indication that any other businesses does.
Certainly the music industry largely has their collective heads in the
sand at this point.  The movie industry hasn't felt the pressure much
yet due to bandwidth, but give it a bit of time.

It's clear that publishers should be able to make money in this
economic landscape, and those able to adapt and not let near sighted
views on copyright and outdated distribution stand in their way, will
win in this space.

It's all about user convenience vs cost.

Adam




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 17 06:41:43 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:41:43 -0600
Subject: Ayatollah Asskroft (was Re: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft)
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost> <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <3A65ADDF.970A26D4@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Me wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sparky" <sparky at suba.com>
> > also supports the removal of separation of church  and state,
> and
>
> Your separation of church and state is imaginary.  The 1st
> Amendment states:
>
> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
>

       Rastafarians, Hindus, Native Americans, and all followers of
shamanic religions are certainly persectired under the multitude of laws
now "prohibiting the free exercise thereof.", and being the reknowned,
rabid anti-drug warrior that AssKrof is, that will only escalate under
his hand.
       Asskroft is not only a confirmed fascist, but also a blatant
Kristian bigot as well. Son of a Pentacostal (Holy Roller) minister, he
himself is a Holy Roller minister. Ayatollah Asskroft.
       No doubt Ayatollah Asskroft will seek the guidance of his god, be
slain in the spirit (fall on the floor in a trance) and issue orders in
tongues when sending out his jackbooted thugs to burn witches and
rastas.





From bear at sonic.net  Wed Jan 17 09:10:54 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:10:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: copyright: moral right or outdated convention
In-Reply-To: <E14In4t-0024T5-00@cronus.ex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101170826210.16327-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




In the internet world, no publishers are needed - or if they are 
needed, it will only be as manufacturers of a physical commodity 
(bound printed pages) that people like better than what they can 
roll off their own printers.  And in fact, you find publishers 
living this way now -- I can still get recent printings of Mary 
Shelley's book _Frankenstein_, or Melville's _The Whale_, even 
though the copyrights on them are long gone.  So somebody out there 
is making a profit manufacturing bound volumes of public-domain 
words.  There's no reason the whole industry can't work that way.

A long time before there was copyright law, as it is now understood, 
there was literature.  

When Virgil sat down to write about what the Gods had been up to 
lately, he didn't have to worry about who owned the characters; 
the characters were clearly in the public domain.  (He did have 
to worry about what the priests would think, though - the practice 
of stoning heretics was well-established).  

But anyway, from the greeks forward, you get plays and works composed 
by many different authors, drawing upon characters and storylines 
and situations that had been dreamed up by earlier authors.  In 
Italy, characters like Scaramouche and Pantaloon emerged, and the 
entire Commedia Del Arte coalesced around them - written by dozens 
of different people, none of whom had to ask the others for any 
kind of permission.  In Germany, new stories were written about 
old characters like Tyll Eulenspeigel, each author developing 
something about the character that other authors had left out. 

And these people, acting in defiance of the principles that would 
later be enshrined as copyright law, created powerful, thoughtful 
literature.  How did this happen?

First, there were _Patrons_.  I use the word not in the sense of a 
movie watcher or theatre watcher today, but in the sense of its 
coinage.  At the time, a _Patron_ was someone who would underwrite 
the living expenses of an acting troupe or an author, in exchange 
for the right to have first access to any new work or new performance.
Sculptors and Painters also had their _Patrons_, but in those cases 
the works were non-copyable and the _Patron_ simply wound up owning 
it.  Today we would call such things "works for hire", or simply say 
that the _Patron_ had bought it and paid in advance.  But in the case 
of the acting troupes or the authors, the work the _Patron_ paid for 
would eventually be enjoyed by everyone.  You still find such people 
today, teaming up to support local ballet companies and theatre 
groups.  Considering that the incremental cost of copying bits is 
very near zero, I suppose that several _Patrons_ could easily 
support an author working on his next book, and then simply hand it 
off to public domain when it was finished.  With very few exceptions, 
the artist isn't going to get rich, but as someone who's seen 
publishing contracts, that doesn't really make a difference.  With 
very few exceptions, the artists don't get rich now.

The second reason such powerful literature was produced without the 
benefit of copyright, was because the characters themselves became 
Archetypes.  Each was formed not by a single quirky hand, but by 
hundreds of authors scattered by thousands of miles and many years. 
Innovations in an established character were either greeted with 
delight or shouted down, depending on whether they appealed to an 
audience's perception of the character.  And each author was free 
to develop new facets of the characters that hadn't been developed 
before.  Thus we see Scaramouche, in hundreds of plays, as the 
jester, the prankster, the happy-go-lucky ne'er-do-well.  But we 
also see him, a couple of times, as an old man, experiencing 
regrets, and as a sincere lover, striving to redeem himself, and 
so on...  These outlier plays, which would never have been dreamed 
up by the original author (whoever that might be) of Scaramouche, 
develop facets of the character that are a vital part of the whole. 
Without copyrights, characters and stories are free to grow beyond 
the vision of the artists who created them.

I don't think copyright is still necessary.  It existed for the 
sole reason of making new ideas profitable so that someone could 
afford to publish them.  But publishing new ideas is effectively 
free now, so it's become obsolete.  And our literature is sadly 
missing some of the things that copyrights destroyed. 

				Bear









From alex33taylor at mail777.net.cn  Wed Jan 17 02:01:03 2001
From: alex33taylor at mail777.net.cn (alex33taylor at mail777.net.cn)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:01:03 +0000
Subject: safe diet
Message-ID: <7fkjdh4ki.vchx0n8jmh5iqx6@ket.babit.com>



Dear Friend,


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http://www.nat-dat-info.com

My body resembled an oversized blimp that would takeoff should a heavy wind arise... it was HIDEOUS!  I had mirrors in my house but most of them were designed to only reflect from the waist up and I honestly hadn't noticed that my cheekbones had totally disappeared and that my face looked like a shapeless clump of flesh.

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http://www.nat-dat-info.com

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From BMowatt394 at aol.com  Wed Jan 17 07:58:17 2001
From: BMowatt394 at aol.com (BMowatt394 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:58:17 EST
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <2f.fb0c773.27971b19@aol.com>


 




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Jan 17 02:31:51 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:31:51 +0100
Subject: authenticating Real Life(tm) - rhetorical bogosity
References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B6@cobra.netsolve.net>
Message-ID: <3A657497.7CA06FAA@ricardo.de>


"Carskadden, Rush" wrote:
> 
> This still seems sketchy. I will take a stab at definition, and we can
> work from there. Keep in mind that my definitions are rough draft and
> completely off the cuff.
> 
> Let us say that "trust" is the reliance of any existent upon the
> integrity of any other existent.
> 
> Let us say that "integrity" is the state of subject when the value of
> each element within the set of all observable elements of subject is a
> member of the pre-determined element-respective statical set of
> values.
> 
> Let us say that a "proof" is the evidence or argument by which an
> assertion is shown to be true.
> 
> Are these definitions acceptable for the purposes of this discussion?
> Suggestions?

I agree on "proof". for trust, I would rather say:

trust is that state in which the subject matter of it is believed to be
true.




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 17 09:02:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:02:06 -0500
Subject: biochemcyberterror update
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010117120153.00a397b0@mail.well.com>


today...

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Potomac Institute for Policy Studies (PIPS)
News briefing on "Terrorism: Review of 2000 and Outlook for 2001."
A special report on Osama bin Laden will also be released
Location: National Press Club, Lisagor, White and Murrow
     Rooms, 14th and F St., NW. 1 p.m.
Contact: Erin O'Connell, 703-525-0770 ext 241




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 17 09:45:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:45:23 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <200101170355.TAA08898@sirius.infonex.com>; from anonymous@anonymizer.com on Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 07:54:00PM -0800
References: <200101170355.TAA08898@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <20010117124523.B10772@cluebot.com>


I've written about Ashcroft's mixed records on tech issues:

http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=ashcroft


On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 07:54:00PM -0800, Anonymous wrote:
> "Me" <commerce at home.com> wrote:
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sparky" <sparky at suba.com>
> > > http://www.opposeashcroft.com
> > >
> > > I'm not trying to get people into any arguments here.. I
> > thought this
> > > might be appropriate since people here are concerned with civil
> > > rights.
> >
> > Quite right, I am very concerned.
> >
> > Lets examine the page:
> >
> > "He has voted against affirmative action and anti-discrimination
> > laws, against a crucial AIDS provision."
> 
> Hmmmm... "Ashcroft has been hailed as an ally by the NRA, voting against
> trigger locks and the assault weapons ban while supporting conceal and carry
> laws and gun show loopholes to regulation."
> 
> > Excellent, he is clearly a firm supporter of civil liberties.
> 
> Might I second that, in this case.  Gee, maybe this website should be named
> <http://www.supportashcroft.com/>; I was feeling kinda lukewarm about his
> nomination until I saw it.  Thanks, sparky!
> 
> > Unfortunately, I don't see any place on your web page to voice my
> > support for his nomination?
> 
> "In 1999, Ashcroft recorded radio ads urging Missouri voters to support an
> NRA-sponsored ballot initiative that would have allowed almost anyone -
> including convicted child molesters and stalkers - to carry concealed guns
> in Missouri."
> 
> Maybe I should move to Missouri.  I've always wanted to shoot a
> child molester.
> 
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 17 09:47:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:47:06 -0500
Subject: weight loss
In-Reply-To: <3c6mdk5jv28tj02m5.1oa61w07@jim.babit.com>; from mose_thegreat@mail777.net.cn on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:56:35PM +0000
References: <3c6mdk5jv28tj02m5.1oa61w07@jim.babit.com>
Message-ID: <20010117124706.C10772@cluebot.com>


Dear Fat Friend,

Meet Photoshop.

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:56:35PM +0000, mose_thegreat at mail777.net.cn wrote:
> 

> In November, we got the proofs back so that we could pick our favorite Picture. Everybody looked wonderful and the background was spectacular but I could not Find myself in the picture. I looked and looked and finally got out a magnifying glass.To my horror, I found this woman with a face and body that looked like it was 100 Pounds overweight. I fell off the chair I was sitting on  and began to cry. 
> 
> http://www.nat-dat-info.com
> 
> My body resembled an oversized blimp that would takeoff should a heavy wind arise... it was HIDEOUS!  I had mirrors in my house but most of them were designed to only reflect from the waist up and I honestly hadn't noticed that my cheekbones had totally disappeared and that my face looked like a shapeless clump of flesh.
> 




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Wed Jan 17 13:18:32 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:18:32 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <3A65F13A.893E41DB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 01:29:28PM -0600
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost> <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem> <3A65F13A.893E41DB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 01:29:28PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>          Just heard Asskroft on the radio during the hearings affirming
> his support for the assault weapon ban ( and Herr Busch's support of
> same) and their intention to reimplement that ban when it sunsets. So
> much for his being against guncontrol -- he made it pretty clear that he
> believes the 2nd is about sporting arms, not military weapons.

Yeah, and they made him apologize for telling the tired old joke about
how the only thing found in the "middle of the road" are moderates and
dead skunks. Sounds like everyone's taking this process real seriously.
Confirmation is more like a ritual hazing and has absolutely nothing
to do with a candidate's fitness for the job. We've survived Ed Meese
and Janet Reno, we'll survive John Ashcroft, too. 

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 17 11:29:28 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:29:28 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost> <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <3A65F13A.893E41DB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Me wrote:

> > I personally would want  to find a better figure to
> > symbolize and speak for my right to arm myself.
>
> The chance of getting John Lott nominated is pretty slim; roll
> the dice again and we'll probably end up with the senior Senator
> from Utah.
>
> I've become resigned to speaking for my own right to bear arms,
> symbolizing it would be good too.

         Just heard Asskroft on the radio during the hearings affirming
his support for the assault weapon ban ( and Herr Busch's support of
same) and their intention to reimplement that ban when it sunsets. So
much for his being against guncontrol -- he made it pretty clear that he
believes the 2nd is about sporting arms, not military weapons.




From freematt at coil.com  Wed Jan 17 10:33:36 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:33:36 -0500
Subject: New Scientist (UK): Hand Over Your Keys
Message-ID: <v04220818b68b95c2390a@[198.4.94.231]>


"The Home Secretary says these powers are necessary for catching drug
dealers and paedophiles."

Pubdate:  Jan 13, 2001
Source: New Scientist (UK)
Page: 51
Copyright: New Scientist, RBI Limited 2001
Contact: letters at newscientist.com
Website: http://www.newscientist.com/
Author: Caspar Bowden

HAND OVER YOUR KEYS

Protecting privacy could soon be more difficult in Britain than anywhere in
the world, warns Caspar Bowden. Internet users may end up with fewer civil
rights than terrorists

[a review of]
"Crypto" by Steven Levy, Viking, $24.95, ISBN 0670859508

SINCE the Second World War, international communications have been hoovered
up from undersea cables and microwave links, and increasingly from computer
networks and mobile phones. Sorted and sanitised, they become the
intelligence reports intended for the eyes only of government ministers. In
Britain, the agency that performs this work is Government Communications
Headquarters (GCHQ) in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.

It was here in 1969 that the mercurial scientist James Ellis invented
"public key" cryptography, a revolutionary code that allows secret
communication without sharing a secret key. As a direct consequence,
Britain acquired a new law last year that compels the surrender of computer
passwords, even by people not suspected of any crime. It means two years in
jail if you refuse, and another five if you breach a secrecy order and
complain publicly.

The story of what's brought us to this extraordinary state of affairs is
told in Crypto. Written from an American viewpoint, it relegates GCHQ to an
appendix and begins instead with the independent rediscovery of public key
cryptography in 1975 by Whitfield Diffie, a Stanford computer scientist.
Ever since, Diffie has championed the public's right to use it to protect
individual privacy.

How is it possible to devise a code that does not require the sender's
choice of key to be shared with the receiver of the message? The answer,
realised by both Ellis and Diffie, is for the receiver to construct a kind
of puzzle that the sender uses to scramble messages in a way that cannot be
reversed unless you know the trick of the puzzle. GCHQ worked out the
details (which involve enormous prime numbers) a few years before Diffie
and others in the US. But it was the Americans who were granted patents on
the underlying mathematics.

These algorithms are now fundamental to Internet security and e-commerce.
Before you enter a credit-card number on the Web, there should be a padlock
in the corner of your browser to tell you that all transactions to the
website are now scrambled. In that case, all the computers of the US
National Security Agency (NSA) will not be able put the pieces back
together again.

Whitehall's confederacy of dunces simply did not know what to do with this
invention. Not only did it let the American patents go unchallenged, it
also kept the achievements of the GCHQ scientists an official secret until
1998. The US successfully prevented the proliferation of these techniques
for more than a decade, using export controls, until a computer program
called Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) found its way onto the Internet in 1991.
Its author, Phil Zimmerman, was arrested for "munitions smuggling", and
prolonged Kafkaesque investigations made him an Internet folk hero.
Ironically, he was motivated by worries about computer networks becoming
embedded in society, and the totalitarian consequences if these were
systematically exploited for surveillance.

Last year, Britain belatedly abandoned an Orwellian scheme for "key
escrow", which would have meant the prior deposit of everyone's keys with
government. But now it has the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (RIP) Act
2000. Any public authority can demand keys, and can even keep this a secret
by using a gagging order "to protect investigative methods". The only
redress will be through a complaints tribunal that can hear secret evidence
which cannot be cross-examined. These powers are due to be activated in
October 2001, when the next general election should be safely out of the way.

The RIP Act can also require Internet service providers to install "black
boxes" that relay Internet wiretaps direct to the MI5 building, home of the
British security service. The Home Secretary says these powers are
necessary for catching drug dealers and paedophiles. But this will leave
every Internet user with fewer civil rights and safeguards than are now
enjoyed by terrorist suspects or asylum seekers (and for this Home
Secretary that is saying something). Even more staggeringly, a leaked
submission from the police and intelligence agencies to the Home Office
recently revealed that they aspire to a seven-year computerised archive
logging all phone calls, e-mails and web browsing. When online, this
amounts to surveillance of your stream of consciousness without a warrant.

Crypto is a well-researched book. Its one flaw is its exclusively American
perspective, which means that it overlooks the most repressive Internet
legislation anywhere in the world: the RIP Act 2000.

Caspar Bowden is director of the
Foundation for Information Policy Research

**************************************************************************
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From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Wed Jan 17 11:39:46 2001
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:39:46 -0500
Subject: Fwd: "The Ten Cannots"
Message-ID: <200101171942.f0HJgtO13434@ak47.algebra.com>


==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
"The Ten Cannots" 
By William Boetchker 
(From a pamphlet, "Lincoln on Private Property," 1916) 

I. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.

II. You cannot strengthen the weak by destroying the strong.

III. You cannot help small men by tearing big men down.

IV. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.

V. You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage payer.

VI. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.

VII. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.

VIII. You cannot establish sound social security on borrowed money.

IX. You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative
and independence.

X. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and
should do for themselves.


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================






From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Wed Jan 17 12:09:46 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:09:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200101172009.PAA13782@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com>



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From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Jan 17 15:37:40 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:37:40 -0800
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <20010117170443.A14220@cluebot.com>
References: <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem>
 <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIENFCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>
 <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20010117153649.06710100@clueserver.org>


At 05:04 PM 1/17/01 -0500, you wrote:
>But be warned: He may stamp CDR on all your outgoing messages.

But he stamps them when their small.

"The Jim Choate on top of your server has just exploded."




>-Declan
>
>
>On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 03:23:03PM -0500, Me wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerry Talesfore" <jerry at rapid5.com>
> > > I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this
> > job?  If you
> > > please feel free to provide me with the individuals information
> > ASAP.
> >
> > His name is Jim Choate; ravage at ssz.com.
> >
> >

---
|             Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium.           |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|                                                  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|




From commerce at home.com  Wed Jan 17 12:47:18 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:47:18 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost> <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem> <3A65F13A.893E41DB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <01e201c080c6$af572de0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
>          Just heard Asskroft on the radio during the hearings
affirming
> his support for the assault weapon ban ( and Herr Busch's
support of
> same) and their intention to reimplement that ban when it
sunsets. So

Yep; he is a slimy bastard trying to get his nomination
confirmed.  Thankfully, he didn't hold these opinions when he was
a Senator.

Who is the absolutist and unwavering pro-drug, pro-economy,
pro-life, pro-2nd-amendment, pro-1st-amendment, pro-freedom
candidate that will be stepping in after Ashcroft is defeated?





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 17 14:04:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:04:43 -0500
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem>; from commerce@home.com on Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 03:23:03PM -0500
References: <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIENFCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com> <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <20010117170443.A14220@cluebot.com>


But be warned: He may stamp CDR on all your outgoing messages.

-Declan


On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 03:23:03PM -0500, Me wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Talesfore" <jerry at rapid5.com>
> > I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this
> job?  If you
> > please feel free to provide me with the individuals information
> ASAP.
> 
> His name is Jim Choate; ravage at ssz.com.
> 
> 




From jerry at rapid5.com  Wed Jan 17 17:25:14 2001
From: jerry at rapid5.com (Jerry Talesfore)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:25:14 -0800
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIEOLCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>


Do you have Jim's contact information beside the email address?

Jerry Talesfore
Recruting Manager
Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
w(408)519-6753
c(408)464-1640

-----Original Message-----
From: Me [mailto:commerce at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 12:23 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Talesfore" <jerry at rapid5.com>
> I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this
job?  If you
> please feel free to provide me with the individuals information
ASAP.

His name is Jim Choate; ravage at ssz.com.






From bpayne37 at home.com  Wed Jan 17 16:43:43 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:43:43 -0700
Subject: democracy for zoubin and the information committee
Message-ID: <001a01c080e7$b6f3b700$b5ecb618@cc1041323-b.sandia1.nm.home.com>


A. Zoubin

I'm doing some research on internet.  http://www.tncrimlaw.com/foia/II.html

A popular Government without popular information or the means of acquiring
it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy or perhaps both. Knowledge
will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own
Governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives.--James
Madison \9\

THIS is why we are exchanging information.

BEST
bill


-----Original Message-----
From: Iran Daneshjoo Organization <iranstudents at hotmail.com>
To: bpayne37 at home.com <bpayne37 at home.com>
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: spy sting


>Dear Friend,
>
>we saw some of these documents but we would like your commentary about what
>happened and all circumstances so we can post it on our website but as well
>as a report to the mailing lists.
>
>With thanks
>
>On behalf of SMCCDI
>
>A. Zoubin ( Information Committee)
>www.iran-daneshjoo.org
>
>>From: bill payne <bpayne37 at home.com>
>>To: iranstudents at hotmail.com
>>Subject: spy sting
>>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:20:39 -0700
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html
>>
>>Better things to do than this rotten spy stuff
>>
>>best
>>http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>




From philbarlow at linkusnow.net  Wed Jan 17 15:00:39 2001
From: philbarlow at linkusnow.net (philbarlow at linkusnow.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:00:39 -0500
Subject: Miraculous Weight Loss Almost Over Night..
Message-ID: <2pdj6w6cw45h17jt2prg.5h2xswe3ov5h17hgfu3@mx04.linkusnow.net>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 17 18:07:56 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:07:56 -0800
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberat
 e.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010117180756.009cbd00@idiom.com>

At 03:42 PM 1/9/01 -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
>I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
>footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
>protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
>within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
>alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
>about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
>smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
>(I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
>the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
>anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

There's been a lot of work in the Smart Card community on
fitting crypto into small memory space - I don't know if the
"Independent Smart Card Developers' Organization" is still active
- probable address - https://scard.org
plus there are products from a number of smart card vendors.
Dallas Semiconductor's i-button includes a crypto version.
Certicom has the patents to many of the Elliptic Curve cryptosystem
versions, and they've done a lot of work on products for small environments.
ECC has an advantage over RSA and Diffie-Hellman public key methods
because the key lengths are much shorter, typically 160-256 bits
instead of 1024 or 512.  On the other hand, the math is much more complex
than the bignum modular multiply and exponentiation that RSA and DH use,
so the code space would be larger.  And 128 bytes may be large on a smartcard,
but it's not that big on anything else.

Is your space constraint RAM, or ROM/Flash code space?
It's easy to fit the data space for most crypto algorithms
into a few KB; the complexity is in the code space.
Some of the data transfer formats wrap a lot of header
and encoding around it, but some are simpler.
Unfortunately, ASN.1 and PGP both put lots of complexity
into data formats to squeeze out a few bits of space,
so the code tends to be bloatware.
If you're willing to do your own data formats, or use XDR,
you can eliminate most of this.  (Simple bignums, etc.)
On the other hand, if you want full browser capability,
you'll need to do real SSL, so you can't avoid them.

Most of the crypto algorithms themselves are relatively small -
RSA and Diffie-Hellman are each a few lines (plus a bignum handler).
The RC4 symmetric-key algorithm is extremely small,
and operates on 8-bit bytes rather than bignums or bit-twiddling,
and the 128-bit versions are very secure as long as you
follow a few simple rules about usage.
DES is ugly, and the hash functions are ugly,
but they're still not very large.
The 2-lines-of-perl versions are horrendously ugly,
	http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/rsa/
and drag in perl's hugeness, but most of the ugliness
is because Perl doesn't have native bignums and
because they were converting from decimal input instead of hex.
The Lisp and Python equivalents are pretty clean and still small :-)

Digital signatures themselves are generally more complex
because you need to handle the name of the thing that's being signed,
and any semantics that thing drags with it.  For instance,
are signatures fully general with N layers deep of key certification,
or are you just going to handle signatures from a built-in key
signing hashes of messages and code updates?  (Or signatures from
keys signed by a built-in key.)

What you need for space depends a lot on your objectives and on
how general you need to be.  Sometimes you can get by with
a few primitives to secure your communication to a central server
and do the more complex stuff on the server.

You're also going to have issues if you want to use the crypto
for protecting television content :-),
since that's typically a fast-moving target that changes
almost as fast as the pirates figure out how to crack it.
But even that crypto normally fits on smartcards.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 17 18:34:55 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:34:55 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <3A65F13A.893E41DB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost>
 <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010117183455.0093f100@idiom.com>


At 01:29 PM 1/17/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>         Just heard Asskroft on the radio during the hearings affirming
>his support for the assault weapon ban ( and Herr Busch's support of
>same) and their intention to reimplement that ban when it sunsets. So
>much for his being against guncontrol -- he made it pretty clear that he
>believes the 2nd is about sporting arms, not military weapons.

Remember - Republicans aren't against Gun Control or Wiretapping,
they're just against Democrats, so they've been using these things
as excuses to beat up Democrats.  Now that it's their turn in power,
of course they're in favor of things that will make it
harder to shoot people in power and easier to catch people who do...
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bbc at cal2.vsnl.net.in  Wed Jan 17 05:27:47 2001
From: bbc at cal2.vsnl.net.in (BLUE BIRD TECHNOLOGIES)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:57:47 +0530
Subject: "REMOVE"
Message-ID: <000601c0808a$79624760$1fa9c8cb@user>


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From mikefreeman at hushmail.com  Wed Jan 17 11:27:58 2001
From: mikefreeman at hushmail.com (mikefreeman at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:27:58 GMT
Subject: ZDNet UK News: Snooping code hits delays
Message-ID: <200101171927.TAA06160@www1.zdnet.co.uk>


This ZDNET UK News story has been forwarded to you by mikefreeman at hushmail.com
who has added these comments:
problems with RIP

Snooping code hits delays

Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:15:41 GMT  Gareth Morgan, IT Week

Draft document comes under fire for being too complex, delays ensue

A definitive code on email monitoring may be pushed back until after
Easter, as the Data Protection Commission (DPC) examines ways to
simplify the draft document following a barrage of criticism from
industry.

David Smith, the deputy data protection commissioner, told IT Week the
final version of the code of practice relating to employees' personal
data could be split into separate sections to cover areas such as
recruitment, monitoring and maintenance of records.

"[The draft version] was not as clear as it might have been," said
Smith, "so we are considering splitting the code into separate parts,
but this will require additional time to produce." The changes could
delay publication of the code - originally pencilled in for early
spring - until after Easter.

In the meantime, IT managers are being advised to continue to draw up
and implement their own codes of conduct.

Although industry is keen to have a code in place as soon as possible,
businesses agree it must be unambiguous and easy to enforce. The draft
version had been criticised by the Confederation of British Industry
(CBI) for being too long and complicated.

"Some parts of the code are clearly unworkable," said Rod Armitage, the
head of legal affairs at the CBI. "It is vital that we get this code
right." The CBI is also concerned that firms will not have the freedom
to determine their own guidelines on monitoring their employees.

Smith said he would meet the CBI and other interested parties over the
coming weeks to discuss the proposed code, and was well aware of the
importance being placed on the issue of monitoring. The bulk of the 70
responses to the consultation document which the DPC received had
focused on the issue of monitoring.

But the CBI is likely to be disappointed if it hopes the DPC will give
firms greater freedom to monitor their employees. The draft proposals
ruled that any monitoring of employee communications must be in
proportion to the business benefits that an organisation could hope to
achieve by it.

Smith said although there were areas where changes could be made to the
draft proposals, the 1998 Data Protection Act had to be adhered to:
"The code of practice is our interpretation of the Data Protection
Act."

The issue of email monitoring has resurfaced recently, with the TUC
describing incidents such as the sacking of ten workers at the Royal &
SunAlliance insurance company for forwarding lewd emails around the
office as out of proportion to the offence.

A spokeswoman for the TUC confirmed that the organisation had been
given special permission to provide feedback on the draft code a week
after the deadline. However, she was unable to provide further
comment.

Take me to ZDNet Enterprise
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/specials/2000/10/enterprise/)

They can see you... Read about how and why in Surveillance
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/specials/1999/09/surveillance/), a ZDNet
News Special

Have your say instantly, and see what others have said. Click on the
TalkBack
(http://forums.zdnet.co.uk/community/wwwthreads.cgi?forum=anchordesk#ZDNetNews)
button and go to the ZDNet News forum.

Let the editors know what you think in the Mailroom
(mailroomuk at zdnet.com). And read
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/mailroom.html) what others have said.


If you found this ZDNN news report valuable, why not sign up for the 
free daily ZDNN News Alert - and we'll email you our top five headlines 
every day.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/misc/newsletters/news.html

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http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/



Please report any abuse of this service to ukwebmaster at zdnet.com




From mose_thegreat at mail777.net.cn  Wed Jan 17 11:56:35 2001
From: mose_thegreat at mail777.net.cn (mose_thegreat at mail777.net.cn)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:56:35 +0000
Subject: weight loss
Message-ID: <3c6mdk5jv28tj02m5.1oa61w07@jim.babit.com>



Dear Friend,


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From promed at promed.isid.harvard.edu  Wed Jan 17 21:12:57 2001
From: promed at promed.isid.harvard.edu (ProMED-mail)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:12:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PRO/AH> Chronic wasting disease, elk: informing hunters
Message-ID: <200101180512.AAA13378@promed.harvard.edu>


CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE, ELK: INFORMING HUNTERS
***********************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

[see also:
Chronic wasting disease, wild deer - USA (Nebraska)    20010117.0140

2000
-----
Chronic wasting dis., elk - Canada (Saskatchewan)      20000425.0619
Chronic wasting dis., elk - Canada (Saskatchewan) (04) 20001218.2220
Chronic wasting disease, elk - USA (Montana)           20000112.0043
Chronic wasting disease, elk - USA (Montana) (04)      20000728.1252

1999
-----
Chronic wasting disease, deer & elk - USA  (western)   19991015.1830
Chronic wasting disease, deer & elk - USA (western...  19991016.1838
Chronic wasting disease, deer - USA (Maine)            19991027.1943
Chronic wasting disease, elk - USA (OK, MT) (02)       19991108.2000
Chronic wasting disease, elk - USA (Oklahoma, Mont...  19990629.1098

1998
-----
Chronic wasting dis., deer & elk - Canada (05)         19980723.1392
Chronic wasting dis., deer & elk - Canada: surveil...  19980210.0264
Chronic wasting dis., deer & elk - USA (Colorado) (04) 19980201.0205
Chronic wasting dis., deer & elk - USA (Colorado) (06) 19980314.0479

1997
-----
Chronic wasting dis., deer & elk - USA (Colorado) (03) 19971122.2346
Chronic wasting disease, deer & elk - USA (Colorad...  19971113.2296
Chronic wasting disease, deer & elk - USA (Colorado)   19970601.1122
TSE, native cervids - USA                              19970506.0938

1996
-----
Chronic wasting disease - Canada              19960501.0841
Chronic wasting disease - Canada & USA        19960613.1094
Chronic wasting disease - Canada & USA (2)    19960620.1132
Chronic wasting disease - Canada (2)          19960503.0853
Chronic wasting disease - Canada (2) [Repeat] 19960507.0872
Chronic wasting disease - USA                 19960503.0850
Chronic wasting disease - USA (3)             19960508.0890
Chronic wasting disease - USA [Repeat]        19960507.0870]

[ProMED-mail would like to apologize for the delay in posting of the
questions posed below.  It appears as though travel and holiday schedules
conspired to leave an opening for a final Y2K bug.  Drs. Williams, Miller
and Thorne were kind enough to respond to the questions raised by Dr.
Sauders. - Mod.MPP]

[1]
Date: Tue 19 Dec 2000 13:25:42 -0500
From: Brian D. Sauders <bds26 at cornell.edu>


Clearly we are in an era when surveillance for infectious diseases in
wildlife is an emerging field in itself.  While it is not always clear what
the implications of epidemic infectious diseases in wildlife are for human
populations, it is clear that humans are often "unlucky" victims of
parasites in search of new niches.  For public health officials this
creates the difficult task of deciding which diseases are important and
what to do about them.  Often diseases that have achieved a significant
morbidity and mortality among human or valuable livestock populations are
prioritized for public health intervention.

In the case of chronic wasting disease in elk, it would seem that despite
efforts to understand the epidemiology of this disease, there is quite a
lot that we do not know.  We do know that it is relatively rare, but it
would appear that (at the very least) we are detecting more cases among
domesticated elk herds in recent years.  While there are apparent public
health interventions to educate hunters about consumption of emaciated
animals, is anyone aware of how clearly and how often those messages are
given to hunters?  Obviously there is no direct evidence of
transmissibility to humans.  However, hunters are the most likely consumers
(other than coyotes, wolves, or buzzards) of wild elk.

Are hunters to suspect only animals with overt signs of disease? What would
those signs be?  Emaciation would seem a relatively vague term to a hunter
who just harvested an animal that they had spent thousands of dollars to
pursue.  Could subclinical or unrecognized CWD lead to transmission to humans?

Is information available to hunters at the time of hunter education or
licensure?  Those would seem the most appropriate times to train individual
hunters about what to look for.  Pictures of diseased animals with clear
clinical signs could be offered for reference.  Also, since the hunter
guiding industry is big business, consider requiring guides to obtain some
basic training in recognizing CWD.  Although this may be a difficult task,
educating guides to recognize clear signs of disease would provide
additional aid to the under-funded wildlife health programs.  These seem
like interventions that could have a significant impact on enhancing
surveillance for this disease in wild game.

As an avid hunter and professional in public health, it would be
interesting to know what the experts on CWD have to say.

--
Brian D. Sauders
Cornell University
Department of Food Science
<bds26 at cornell.edu>

(These comments do not necessarily  reflect those of Cornell University or
of the Department of Food Science)

******
[2]
Date: Tue 16 Jan 2001 16:47:24 -0700
From: Beth Williams <storm at uwyo.edu>


In response to Dr. Sauders request for information about how hunters are
informed about chronic wasting disease (CWD) we have the following comments:

Both the Colorado Division of Wildlife and the Wyoming Game and Fish
Department provide information to hunters about CWD in a variety of ways,
including press releases and interviews resulting in dissemination of
information about CWD in local newspapers (some of which have been picked
up and posted on-line by ProMED-mail); publication of information about CWD
in
agency magazines and newspapers; local radio spots and programs discussing
CWD; production of a video about CWD which has been shown to hunters at
expositions; posting information about CWD on the web sites of both
agencies; providing information about CWD in hunting license application
packets; individual letters to hunters providing information about CWD and
how to get harvested animals tested; contacts with hunters that harvest CWD
test positive animals; and publications in the scientific literature.

The recommendations to deer and elk hunters in the CWD endemic area
(limited to southeastern Wyoming and northeastern Colorado) are not
dependent upon their recognizing sick animals (though hunters are clearly
encouraged not to harvest animals sick animals -- whether they be in the
CWD endemic area or not).  Recommendations are based on prudence in the
face of some uncertainty and avoiding contact with tissues containing the
potentially infectious agent.  The recommendations include wearing latex or
rubber gloves when dressing harvested deer or elk and washing up
afterwards; avoiding contact with brain and spinal cord; discarding the
head, spine, spleen, and lymph nodes; and boning the meat when cutting and
packaging the venison.

A few additional comments. Chronic wasting disease is actually quite rare
in free-ranging elk (<1 percent of hunter harvested animals surveyed); it
is more
common in deer.  And although coyotes may well consume deer and elk in the
CWD endemic area, wolves are still quite a long way away from southeastern
Wyoming and northeastern Colorado.

--
Beth Williams
Department of Veterinary Sciences
University of Wyoming
Laramie, Wyoming
<storm at uwyo.edu>

Mike Miller
Colorado Division of Wildlife
Fort Collins, Colorado

Tom Thorne
Wyoming Game and Fish Department
Cheyenne, Wyoming
......................mpp/pg/es
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Message-ID: <20010118144806.24937.qmail@e43.friendfinder.com>


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From bravotwozero at goingplatinum.com  Thu Jan 18 04:23:36 2001
From: bravotwozero at goingplatinum.com (bravotwozero at goingplatinum.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:23:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: An Invitation From JJ Hughes 
Message-ID: <8110721.979820616807.JavaMail.platweb@atl7mhfl0079>

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From bravotwozero at goingplatinum.com  Thu Jan 18 04:23:36 2001
From: bravotwozero at goingplatinum.com (bravotwozero at goingplatinum.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:23:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: An Invitation From JJ Hughes 
Message-ID: <2013162.979820616885.JavaMail.platweb@atl7mhfl0079>

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From qcscr at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 17 20:55:31 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:55:31 +0300
Subject: =?koi8-r?B?98HbySDXz9rNz9bOz9PUySAgwsXax9LBzsneztkgIQ==?=
Message-ID: <324173541.20010118075531@yahoo.com>


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From proff at iq.org  Wed Jan 17 13:28:47 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 18 Jan 2001 08:28:47 +1100
Subject: Full text to the book ``Underground'' released.
Message-ID: <wxn1cp98c0.fsf@suburbia.net>



I very pleased to announce that thanks to Random House, Suelette
Dreyfus and myself the complete and unabridged electronic text to our
famed computer crime book ``Underground'' (approx 500 pp.) 
has been publically released.

+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Format         | Name                    | Size (bytes) |
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
| Text           | underground.txt         | 979993       |
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
| Text, ZIP      | underground.zip         | 357915       |
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
| Text, GZIP     | underground.txt.gz      | 355953       |
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
| Text, BZIP2    | underground.txt.bz2     | 265014       |
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
| Palm Basic Doc | underground.pdb         | 519140       |
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
| Palm Teal Doc  | underground-tealdoc.pdb | 520661       |
+---------------------------------------------------------+

The Palm formated files will allow you to read the book on
a Palm Pilot and various other handheld machines.

See http://www.underground-book.com/download.php3

Feel free to forward this message.

Julian.

--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Jan 18 10:54:53 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:54:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101181053400.17527-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> from fas:
> 
> 
> ASSASSINATION POLITICS
> 
> In a new bill introduced in the House of Representatives on January 3, Rep. 
> Bob Barr proposed to eliminate the longstanding official prohibition 
> against assassination.

Maybe this article is closer to fact than we realize:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3701/bush_nightmare.html

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Jan 18 07:55:10 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:55:10 -0500
Subject: John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]>


I happened to catch some of the confirmation hearings on CSPAN last 
night.  Of particular interest was John Ashcroft's responses to 
Dianne Feinstein's, (D-Calif.) questions.  Basically Ashcroft stated 
that both Brady and the assault weapon bill are constitutional and 
that he supported their continuance.  He said something to the effect 
that "We need to move forward on these issues". He also mentioned 
that he favored closing the "gun show loophole" (A view shared by 
Republican sellouts).

On both 1st and 4th amendment issues, John Ashcroft has one of the 
worst records on Capital Hill. Ashcroft sponsored the 
"Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation
Act" would have criminalized certain drug- and drug policy- related 
discussions on the Internet, and would have allowed police to conduct 
secret searches of homes, with the residents never being informed 
before or after that the police were there.

It is my opinion that Yale grad Ashcraft is a phony conservative 
(aside from the abortion issue) and phony constitutionalist.

Please visit http://www.StopJohnAshcroft.org today and help stop the 
appointment of John Ashcroft as Attorney General -- or, just call the 
Congressional Switchboard at (202) 224-3121, twice, have them 
transfer you to each of your two Senators in turn, and urge they vote 
"no" on the Ashcroft appointment.

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/
**************************************************************************




From declan at well.com  Thu Jan 18 08:12:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:12:29 -0500
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIEOLCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>; from jerry@rapid5.com on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 05:25:14PM -0800
References: <007601c07ffa$214140d0$0100a8c0@golem> <FJENJMJBDOOGIHGABFLDIEOLCHAA.jerry@rapid5.com>
Message-ID: <20010118111228.A23662@cluebot.com>


We think he exists only via email. None of us has ever seen him
in person. We theorize he could be a tentacle.

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 05:25:14PM -0800, Jerry Talesfore wrote:
> Do you have Jim's contact information beside the email address?
> 
> Jerry Talesfore
> Recruting Manager
> Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
> w(408)519-6753
> c(408)464-1640
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Me [mailto:commerce at home.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 12:23 PM
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Talesfore" <jerry at rapid5.com>
> > I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this
> job?  If you
> > please feel free to provide me with the individuals information
> ASAP.
> 
> His name is Jim Choate; ravage at ssz.com.
> 
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Thu Jan 18 08:15:44 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:15:44 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@netbox.com on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 01:18:32PM -0800
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost> <01d501c0804e$e364c390$0100a8c0@golem> <3A65F13A.893E41DB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>


Quite right. Ashcroft is objectionable, as is any candidate George W.
would propose, but he is arguably less objectionable than Reno.

Here's what he said yesterday about Microsoft:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41264,00.html

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 01:18:32PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 01:29:28PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >          Just heard Asskroft on the radio during the hearings affirming
> > his support for the assault weapon ban ( and Herr Busch's support of
> > same) and their intention to reimplement that ban when it sunsets. So
> > much for his being against guncontrol -- he made it pretty clear that he
> > believes the 2nd is about sporting arms, not military weapons.
> 
> Yeah, and they made him apologize for telling the tired old joke about
> how the only thing found in the "middle of the road" are moderates and
> dead skunks. Sounds like everyone's taking this process real seriously.
> Confirmation is more like a ritual hazing and has absolutely nothing
> to do with a candidate's fitness for the job. We've survived Ed Meese
> and Janet Reno, we'll survive John Ashcroft, too. 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
> PO Box 897
> Oakland CA 94604
> 




From carskar at netsolve.net  Thu Jan 18 09:21:51 2001
From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:21:51 -0600
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B8@cobra.netsolve.net>

This is not true. I know Jim in person. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 10:12 AM
> To: Jerry Talesfore
> Cc: Me; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: RE: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> We think he exists only via email. None of us has ever seen him
> in person. We theorize he could be a tentacle.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 05:25:14PM -0800, Jerry Talesfore wrote:
> > Do you have Jim's contact information beside the email address?
> > 
> > Jerry Talesfore
> > Recruting Manager
> > Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
> > w(408)519-6753
> > c(408)464-1640
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Me [mailto:commerce at home.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 12:23 PM
> > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> > Subject: Re: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerry Talesfore" <jerry at rapid5.com>
> > > I am looking for a CDR Team Lead.  Do you know who can do this
> > job?  If you
> > > please feel free to provide me with the individuals information
> > ASAP.
> > 
> > His name is Jim Choate; ravage at ssz.com.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
-------------- next part --------------
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From jburnes at savvis.net  Thu Jan 18 09:56:01 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:56:01 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
References: <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost> <20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <01011811560102.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Thursday 18 January 2001 10:15, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Quite right. Ashcroft is objectionable, as is any candidate George W.
> would propose, but he is arguably less objectionable than Reno.
>
> Here's what he said yesterday about Microsoft:
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41264,00.html
>

To all the people who find Ashcroft objectionable, let me concur
with Declan that there is no one they will not find objectionable.
In my opinion, anyone that doesn't burn little children in their
churches is at least an order of magnitude better than Janet
Reno.

I'd also like to point out that anything he says in the confirmation
hearings is likely to be whatever he thinks the questioner wants to
hear.

He will whisper sweet nothings into Dianne Feinstein's ear about his
new plans for the fascist state if he thinks it will turn Feinswein's
vote.

Do you really think Feinswein will vote for him?

Who cares.  Nothing short of a libertarian (small l) renessaince will
stop the tide of fascism that continues to reverberate through our body
politic.  Someone needs to register www.slavestate.org and have a
real time track of the level of subjugation on this land of ours.
(Hint: The DEA wants to put people in prison for possessing hemp soap.  Its
totally out of control.)

jim





From bear at sonic.net  Thu Jan 18 11:59:56 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:59:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101181155100.19117-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>
>from fas:
>
>
>ASSASSINATION POLITICS
>
>In a new bill introduced in the House of Representatives on January 3, Rep. 
>Bob Barr proposed to eliminate the longstanding official prohibition 
>against assassination.


Ew, ick. 

This seems to be devolving to the level of "Fear and Loathing".

Don't these clowns realize where political assassination goes 
once it gets started?  Do they just not read history books? 

I guess the thing is, there's not only the traditional pitfalls... 
In a world with widespread anonymous communication, there are 
scads of new pitfalls, too.  None of which makes assassination 
look like a good idea.  

				Bear





From declan at well.com  Thu Jan 18 09:19:37 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:19:37 -0500
Subject: REAL assassination politics
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com>



from fas:


ASSASSINATION POLITICS

In a new bill introduced in the House of Representatives on January 3, Rep. 
Bob Barr proposed to eliminate the longstanding official prohibition 
against assassination.

Executive Order 12333, issued by President Reagan and currently in effect, 
dictates that "No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United 
States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, 
assassination."  This restates similar prohibitions issued by the Ford and 
Carter Administrations.

According to Rep. Barr, however, "These Executive orders limit the swift, 
sure, and precise action needed by the United States to protect our 
national security."

Rep. Barr did not indicate exactly who he wants the Government to 
assassinate.  His bill does say, encouragingly, that assassination "is a 
remedy which should be used sparingly."

Moral considerations aside, the consensus of opinion among mainstream 
politicians of both parties has always been that the United States has more 
to lose than to gain by legitimizing assassination.

The text of the new bill, dubbed "The Terrorist Elimination Act of 2001," 
was posted by John Young on his outstanding site cryptome.org here:

         http://cryptome.org/hr19.txt


******************************




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan 18 10:06:38 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:06:38 -0500
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B8@cobra.netsolve.net>
Message-ID: <200101181814.NAA30771@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Rush steps into a bucket of:

>This is not true. I know Jim in person. 

Rush, get ready for a subpoena. Better, to plead, I don't
know anybody or anything that will not incriminate me.

Jim didn't say that, just one time, and from that came
the CDR mark of entrapment and forthwith acting on
behalf of the evildoers. Jim cannot eliminate the CDR
brand because it's the hidden hand doing it.

The Jim you met, Rush, ain't there anymore. Nor others
once known. 




From followup at cesinc.com  Thu Jan 18 11:32:12 2001
From: followup at cesinc.com (Cutting Edge Software)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:32:12 -0600
Subject: PALM USER: Office-style suite for your Palm handheld!
Message-ID: <831A918EBD8AD111935D006008BF04D60156B025@sprite.cesinc.com>


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http://www.cesinc.com/quickoffice/index.html




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Thu Jan 18 13:50:47 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:50:47 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C66@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From frissell at panix.com  Thu Jan 18 11:21:10 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:21:10 -0500
Subject: Stop Signs on the Web
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010117105945.04c908e0@popserver.panix.com>


http://www.economist.com/printedition/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=471742&CFID=301055&CFTOKEN=47471685

The Economist 11 Jan 2001

The Internet was supposed to be all about freedom. That is why governments 
want to regulate it. It is far from certain whether freedom, or government 
control, will win the day.

.....

"Both filtering and IP-address tracking are far from perfect. Filters 
generally block too much—and too little. And surfers can block IP-address 
tracking by using services such as Zero Knowledge’s Freedom or 
anonymizer.com. In any case, knowing where a user is is only part of the 
solution. In the case of Yahoo!, the firm would still have to work out 
which auctions to block.

But do these shortcomings matter? Jack Goldsmith, a law professor at the 
University of Chicago, argues that the real world is full of imperfect 
filtering and identification techniques: criminals crack safes, 
15-year-olds visit bars with fake IDs, secret information is leaked to the 
press. To Mr Goldsmith, there is little doubt that filtering and 
identification technologies will help to make cyberspace more regulated, 
because they will allow governments to raise the cost of getting certain 
information."

.....

Save that in the real world, I can't write and instantly distribute a 
program which will let anyone easily crack safes or accomplish other tasks 
that government may seek to block.  As we've seen, BTW, I *can* distribute 
fake ID's and fake ID technology easily and swiftly over the Net these days.

Since even the most casual Net surfer is using an incredibly complex suite 
of software and electronic communications protocols, we've established that 
complexity, alone, is not enough to block the use of technology.  Adding a 
new software/protocol layer designed to defeat new government control 
attempts is no more complex than what we are using already.

If motivated by the ability to acquire "free" content or "forbidden" 
content, people have already shown themselves willing to download and 
install software.  They will in the future.

.....

"The holy grail for e-commerce, however, would be a system in which users 
had permanent digital certificates on their computers containing details of 
age, citizenship, sex, professional credentials, and so on. Such technology 
would not only allow websites to aim their services at individuals, but 
would let governments reclaim their authority. These solutions to Internet 
regulation are far off, if they fly at all. But Lawrence Lessig, a law 
professor at Stanford University, warns that e-commerce firms will push for 
such certificates and that governments may one day require them."

.....

Require them, for what?  In the US, licensing of speech and the press is 
specifically prohibited, and anyone on earth can effectively become a US 
person by opening a telecoms account here.

Before the Internet "broke wide", we developed an international 
store-and-forward network (Fidonet) using the Plain Old Telephone Service 
(POTS).  The Internet is not one network but thousands.

If individuals choose to communicate, it is hard to stop them in the modern 
age.  And that is what we have, a choice.

Legally, the Net is a series of Virtual Private Networks (VPN's).  If one 
aspect of the Net becomes too restrictive, it is trivial to deploy a new 
VPN with the liberated character that users may prefer.  That is what the 
various peer-to-peer networks are.

.....

"On the Internet, the struggle between freedom and state control will rage 
for some time. But if recent trends in online regulation prove anything, it 
is that technology is being used by both sides in this battle and that 
freedom is by no means certain to win. The Internet could indeed become the 
most liberating technology since the printing press— but only if 
governments let it."

.....

Johannes Gutenberg (1398-1468) http://www.slip.net/~graphion/guten.html

The printing press was not liberating because governments decided to let it 
be liberating.  They didn't have a choice.  The technology made the 
communication of ideas easier and so it was easier.   The Reformation, the 
Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, etc. followed.

The printing press worked these changes not because it was impossible for 
governments to censor printing or even to jail printers.  It worked these 
changes because the technology let millions of individuals preserve and 
spread their ideas easily and cheaply.  In spite of controls.  It took from 
circa 1455 to 1776 for the changes allowed by printing to come to 
fruition.  It will be a bit faster for the Net.

The Net makes the communication of zeros and ones even easier than 
printing.  In addition, we have developed so many ephemeral goods and 
services since 1455 (money, video, audio, etc.) that in addition to mere 
ideas, the net can transfer actual value.  Trade.  This has obvious 
implications for attempts by states to control the economy.

It turns out that, in the case of communications technology, the ease of 
use and the wideness of its adoption are more important than the control 
desires of censors.  The reason that this is so is obvious.  If millions of 
people can easily do something, it is hard to stop them.  Governments can 
stop a few but that leaves thousands or millions of people still doing the 
forbidden thing.  Sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll proved that long ago.  In 
the case of the Nets, governments are faced with the problem of how to stop 
millions (soon billions) from hitting the Enter<--' key on their 
keyboards.  Big challenge.

Since totalitarianism turns out to be a non-stable state when individuals 
have physical power in the world, things continue to look difficult for the 
authorities.

DCF

----
"They believe that the Government is the problem and that what everyone 
needs is to be told, 'You're on your own; go out there into the tender 
mercies of the global economy; have a great time in cyberspace, and we'll 
get out of your way.'" -- William Jefferson Blythe Clinton in a speech to 
the AFSCME in Chicago June 21, 1996.




From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Thu Jan 18 12:53:04 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:53:04 -0600
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101181155100.19117-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <B68CB3D0.6DB%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/18/01 1:59 PM, Ray Dillinger at bear at sonic.net wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
>> 
>> from fas:
>> 
>> 
>> ASSASSINATION POLITICS
>> 
>> In a new bill introduced in the House of Representatives on January 3, Rep.
>> Bob Barr proposed to eliminate the longstanding official prohibition
>> against assassination.
> 
> 
> Ew, ick. 
> 
> This seems to be devolving to the level of "Fear and Loathing".
> 
> Don't these clowns realize where political assassination goes
> once it gets started?  Do they just not read history books?
> 
> I guess the thing is, there's not only the traditional pitfalls...
> In a world with widespread anonymous communication, there are
> scads of new pitfalls, too.  None of which makes assassination
> look like a good idea.
> 
> Bear
> 
> 
> 
Obviously, they are wanting to take care of the Iraq issue........




From cypherpunks at openpgp.net  Thu Jan 18 12:17:59 2001
From: cypherpunks at openpgp.net (cypherpunks at openpgp.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:17:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Recommended: "How much encryption do we need?"
Message-ID: <200101182017.PAA03871@www.csmonitor.com>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
cypherpunks at openpgp.net has recommended this article from 
The Christian Science Monitor's electronic edition.

CSM article about hushmail.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Click here to email this story to a friend: 
http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/send-story?2001/01/18/text/p17s1.txt

Click here to read this story online:
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/01/18/fp17s1-csm.shtml

Headline:  How much encryption do we need?
Byline:  
Date: 01/18/2001
(TORONTO)'Encryption" is the term for technologies that can be used to wrap your 
e-mail and your e-commerce and your Web-surfing in a veil of secrecy.

How much encryption do we need? And how do we get it? Those would seem 
to be the basic questions for Web surfers.

Many people hesitate to do business over the Internet because they're 
worried about hackers snatching up their credit-card numbers and 
electronic eavesdroppers listening in on their e-mail. And so you might 
think that there would be more public discussion about encryption - 
that it might be, well, a little less cryptic.

But from the beginning of mass use of the Internet, tension has existed 
in both Canada and the United States between cybernauts and law 
enforcement officials. The technology gurus argue that people need 
access to strong encryption if the Internet is to realize its full 
potential for electronic commerce. Law enforcement officials, 
especially in the US, see potential for online crime and want to be 
able to steam open, so to speak, people's e-mail.

And so strong encryption programs - the equivalent of a serious 
deadbolt lock - have over the years been classified as sensitive goods, 
like missiles or other armaments, subject to government export 
controls. Selling them abroad has often meant going through a 
cumbersome permit process - often hard for small firms, and even fatal 
to their contracts.

All this technology and regulation is changing so fast, that even 
people in the industry are hard-pressed to know what the law lets them 
do. 

HushMail, for instance, which provides a free, ad-supported Web-based 
e-mail service protected with very heavy duty 1,024-bit encryption, 
started up in Austin, Texas, in May 1999, but located its programmers 
in the British West Indies, where encryption law is much more relaxed 
than in the US. Now its corporate headquarters is in Dublin, and its 
e-mail servers are located in Vancouver. The decision to locate their 
servers in Canada, says HushMail spokeswoman Genevieve Van Cleve, was 
made "because of its friendly crypto laws and cheap bandwidth."

Ms. Van Cleve accentuates the positives when asked about a recent 
decision to locate in Ireland: a booming local economy, a strong 
information technology skills base within the labor force, access to 
the security-conscious European market.

"If the US were to change all its laws tomorrow, we wouldn't leave 
Ireland any more than we'd close the doors on our sales offices in 
Utah," she adds. But she says, "It's kind of hard to figure out what 
the [US] law is.... The law has never been tested. But it would not be 
a smart business move for us to try to test it. We'll leave that to the 
Microsofts of this world."

Similarly, a media official at a Canadian encryption firm often cited 
as a bright young comer in its field was unable to find anyone willing 
to discuss encryption regulation on the record. David Jones, a computer 
scientist at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, and the 
president of Electronic Frontier Canada, says that by threatening over 
the years to introduce domestic controls on encryption, US 
law-enforcement agencies have managed to distract privacy advocates 
from what he says should be the real issue: abolition of export 
controls. Export controls have had the general result of weakening the 
encryption standards available off the shelf in the US and Canada, in 
Dr. Jones's view.

This analysis is disputed, however, by Brian O'Higgins, founder and 
chief technology officer of Entrust in Ottawa. "We make it safe to do 
business on the Internet," he says, selling encryption, digital 
signatures, and strong authentication technology. "The US government 
zeroed out all controls on encryption in January 2000. It was a 
180-degree reversal," he says. "They decided e-commerce was more 
important than law enforcement."

The US decision has left Canada scrambling. Its crypto laws have at 
times given firms here an edge - as HushMail's servers in Vancouver 
attest. A year and a half ago, Industry Canada, the commerce ministry, 
announced that its policy would be to allow encryption as strong as 
anything available anywhere. 

"I called it a home run at the time," says Mr. O'Higgins. He 
acknowledges, though, that practice hasn't quite caught up with policy. 
If laws are less than crystal clear - and there's evidence that in the 
US, at least, regulations have been drafted with enough ambiguity to 
let regulators decide on permits case by case - there's also an 
apparent reluctance to explain why encryption matters.

Says Van Cleve: "I don't think anyone - in business or in government - 
has made the case for strong privacy and encryption: Consumers deserve 
to be protected, too."


(c) Copyright 2001 The Christian Science Monitor.  All rights reserved. 

Click here to email this story to a friend: 
http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/send-story?2001/01/18/text/p17s1.txt

The Christian Science Monitor-- an independent daily newspaper providing context and clarity on national and international news, peoples and cultures, and social trends.  Online at http://www.csmonitor.com

Click here to order a free sample copy of the print edition of the Monitor: 
http://www.csmonitor.com/advertising/order_page.html




From kingpin at atstake.com  Thu Jan 18 13:04:38 2001
From: kingpin at atstake.com (Kingpin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:04:38 -0500
Subject: Initial Cryptanalysis of the RSA SecurID Algorithm
Message-ID: <C5119AD12E92D311928E009027DE4CCA671661@babel>


Abstract:

Recently, I.C. Wiener published a reverse engineering effort of the RSA
SecurID algorithm. There were few speculations on the security ramifications
of the algorithm in I.C. Wiener's posting, so this note is an effort to
touch upon areas of concern. We have verified that I.C. Wiener's released
version of the proprietary algorithm is accurate by comparing it with our
own prior reverse engineering of the same
algorithm.

Due to the time sensitivity imposed by the public release of RSA's
proprietary algorithm, we felt it necessary to release this brief to help
people better understand and work toward reducing the risks to which they
might currently be exposed. The risk profile of token devices changes when
they are implemented in an uncontrolled environment, such as the Internet,
and the research in this paper aims to educate and to help manage those
risks. The primary concern is the possiblity to generate a complete cycle of
tokencode outputs given a known secret, which is equivilent to the cloning
of a token device.

This short paper will examine several discovered statistical irregularities
in functions used within the SecurID algorithm: the time computation and
final conversion routines. Where and how these irregularities can be
mitigated by usage and policy are explored. We are planning for the release
of a more thorough analysis in the near future. This paper does not present
methods of determining the secret component by viewing previously generated
or successive tokencodes.


Direct link to full paper:
http://www.atstake.com/research/reports/initial_securid_analysis.pdf

Additional reports:
http://www.atstake.com/research/reports/index.html


-kp




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Thu Jan 18 13:28:24 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:28:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <01JZ250MXNFA9C3I7D@SMTP00.InfoAve.Net>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Thu Jan 18 13:54:00 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:54:00 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF442F4@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From boxfun2 at lycos.com  Thu Jan 18 17:10:13 2001
From: boxfun2 at lycos.com (boxfun2 at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:10:13
Subject: Universal Cable Descrambler, Recieve all channels
Message-ID: <789.565905.562093@lycos.com>



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From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 18 15:10:16 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:10:16 -0600
Subject: we're listening: Tomlinson book deals
Message-ID: <3A6777D8.DAEA50D5@mindspring.com>




                     We have found a literary agent in Zurich, who
indicated the willingness to assist in
                     the negotiations between our company and Richard.
After several rounds of
                     negotiations, some of which happened to be by
non-encrypted e-mail, and a day
                     before the signing the actual contract, the agent
got the following very
                     strongly-worded letter in German language,
promising, in part, the prison sentense
                     for their assistance. 


                     Certainly, literary agent was not willing to risk
his freedom and promptly forgot
                     about the whole business. 

                     Why we are sure it was routine e-mail interception?
Very easy. While Richard
                     Tomlinson was in Italy, the particular department
of the Italian Ministry of Defence
                     (MoD) was executing the eavesdropping requests by
the MI-6 order. 

                     Eventually in the end of April 2000, something went
wrong with the Spagetti-based
                     email survelliance, and for several days in a row
we (along with other
                     correspondents) were receiving error messages, that
our particular letters and
                     Richard's replies to them were "unable to be
routed: Status 5.4.4" to the particular
                     email address, which traces to the Italian MoD
internal computer network. 

                     The Italian Eavesdroppers' email was
robi at ms.ash.interbusiness.it 

                     We will like to hear more details on the Italian
email eavesdropping in general and
                     this "robi" in particular and will gladly put them
on our web site. 



http://www.thebigbreach.com/legal/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 18 15:52:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:52:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SSZ CDR Node: Re: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <200101181814.NAA30771@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010118175056.5612C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



As usual, crap vitriole.

John, I think you've up'ed the med's too far this time.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:

> Rush steps into a bucket of:
> 
> >This is not true. I know Jim in person. 
> 
> Rush, get ready for a subpoena. Better, to plead, I don't
> know anybody or anything that will not incriminate me.
> 
> Jim didn't say that, just one time, and from that came
> the CDR mark of entrapment and forthwith acting on
> behalf of the evildoers. Jim cannot eliminate the CDR
> brand because it's the hidden hand doing it.
> 
> The Jim you met, Rush, ain't there anymore. Nor others
> once known. 

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan 18 14:58:23 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:58:23 -0500
Subject: Banned MI6 Book
Message-ID: <200101182306.SAA10277@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Ex-MI6 officer Richard Tomlinson's book, "The Big Breach:
>From Top Secret To Maximum Security," is available for
order on a Russian Web site:

   http://www.thebigbreach.com

Tomlinson has been hounded by MI6 for several years, 
after being jailed for allegedly revealing official secrets,
rather than embarrassing cockups and criminal acts which
his book describes.

Tomlinson was then booted from a half dozen countries 
where he sought refuge by the spook mafia -- including
the US. A major push is on in the UK to prevent his book 
appearing there by honking Official Secrets skyfall.

MI6 is yelping that the publisher of the book is a firm set 
by Russian spooks. Checkov the site design.




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Jan 18 10:10:37 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:10:37 -0000
Subject: Passatempo reporter 2001
Message-ID: <050de3710181211WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/reporter2001.htm> 
Passatempo Repórter 2001
Com o virar do século, todos nós temos as nossas perspectivas
relativamente ao futuro, e porque a giganetstore.com
<http://www.giganetstore.com/>  gosta que os seus clientes possam dar
azo à imaginação propomos-lhe o seguinte: 
Seja Repórter por um dia 
e envie-nos uma notícia original elaborada por si relativamente a um
acontecimento futuro.

Sabendo que nós temos como critério de escolha as seguintes
características: Imaginação, Criatividade, Originalidade e Humor.

Para participar neste passatempo só terá de fazer o seguinte: 

01. Fazer uma compra no valor igual ou superior a 3.000$00 
02. Elaborar uma noticia com o máximo de 100 palavras 

E poderá ganhar os seguintes prémios: 
1º Classificado - Uma Consola Dreamcast
2º Classificado - Jogo Diablo II (p/ PC)

Quer saber como participar?
Consulte a página oficial do Passatempo Repórter 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/reporter/reporter.htm> 
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição do seu
registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
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From reeza at flex.com  Thu Jan 18 21:00:05 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:00:05 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <01011811560102.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost>
 <20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>


At 11:56 AM 1/18/01 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
 >On Thursday 18 January 2001 10:15, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >> Quite right. Ashcroft is objectionable, as is any candidate George W.
 >> would propose, but he is arguably less objectionable than Reno.
 >>
 >> Here's what he said yesterday about Microsoft:
 >> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41264,00.html
 >>
 >
 >To all the people who find Ashcroft objectionable, let me concur
 >with Declan that there is no one they will not find objectionable.
 >In my opinion, anyone that doesn't burn little children in their
 >churches is at least an order of magnitude better than Janet
 >Reno.

Reno burned little kids in their church, because of the FIREARMS held
or believed to be held somewhere on or around the compound.

You might want to reappraise.

 >I'd also like to point out that anything he says in the confirmation
 >hearings is likely to be whatever he thinks the questioner wants to
 >hear.

Agree, but -

 >He will whisper sweet nothings into Dianne Feinstein's ear about his
 >new plans for the fascist state if he thinks it will turn Feinswein's
 >vote.
 >
 >Do you really think Feinswein will vote for him?

- asskrack is on record about firearms, elsewhere.  If firearms are as
large an issue to her as they are to others, probably.

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Jan 18 22:09:40 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:09:40 -1000
Subject: Node: Re: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010118175056.5612C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <200101181814.NAA30771@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118200830.00c83990@flex.com>


Is it?  Prove it.  Drop the CDR for a day, week or month, if you can.

At 05:52 PM 1/18/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >As usual, crap vitriole.
 >
 >John, I think you've up'ed the med's too far this time.
 >
 >On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:
 >
 >> Rush steps into a bucket of:
 >>
 >> >This is not true. I know Jim in person.
 >>
 >> Rush, get ready for a subpoena. Better, to plead, I don't
 >> know anybody or anything that will not incriminate me.
 >>
 >> Jim didn't say that, just one time, and from that came
 >> the CDR mark of entrapment and forthwith acting on
 >> behalf of the evildoers. Jim cannot eliminate the CDR
 >> brand because it's the hidden hand doing it.
 >>
 >> The Jim you met, Rush, ain't there anymore. Nor others
 >> once known.
 >
 >    ____________________________________________________________________
 >
 >           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
 >           smaller group must first understand it.
 >
 >                                           "Stranger Suns"
 >                                           George Zebrowski
 >
 >       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
 >       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
 >       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
 >                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
 >    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan 18 18:15:49 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:15:49 -0500
Subject: Kahn on Yardley
Message-ID: <200101190224.VAA13413@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Excuse my namedropping but I met David Kahn this evening
at Newsweek's book party for Steve Levy. Kahn said he's
working on a book about Herbert Yardley, after having studied
NSA's "complete" archive on Yardley as visiting scholar, along 
with other Yardley papers at Columbia University. He said he 
has indeed found new Yardley and Black Chamber material. 
He expects the book to be ready for publication in a year or so. 

Kahn said he would not agree to a secrecy agreement at NSA
as resident scholar, the first who refused to accept the condition. 
So he was given a desk outside the classified area and did not 
have access to any classified information during his stay.

He pointed to an article on Russian Tempest operations published 
in Cryptologia not long ago. Said the Russians intensely used 
Tempest for snooping, more so than most other countries.

He asked me my name and I said Matt Blaze. He said oh the
guy on the front page of the New York Times. That's me
I said, and Matt looking on said, yeah, and I'm John Perry
Barlow. And Barlow said if you're Barlow I'm John Gilmore.
Kahn crushed his wine glass, idiots.





From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 19 00:32:45 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:32:45 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <025501c081eb$f29ee090$0100a8c0@golem>
References: <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost>
 <20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118222856.00c0fef0@flex.com>


At 02:46 AM 1/19/01 -0500, Me wrote:
 >From: "Reese" <reeza at flex.com>

I hate Outlook, OExpress is worse.
Doesn't the below look much easier to read?

 >>>In my opinion, anyone that doesn't burn little children in their
 >>>churches is at least an order of magnitude better than Janet
 >>>Reno.
 >
 >> Reno burned little kids in their church, because of the FIREARMS
 >> held or believed to be held somewhere on or around the compound.
 >> You might want to reappraise.
 >
 >Well, as long as she had a good reason...

Now that we've established that you think there are good reasons to
burn children in their church, what do you recommend for a marinade?

Napalm?




From natalie at customers.MIT.EDU  Thu Jan 18 23:05:57 2001
From: natalie at customers.MIT.EDU (natalie at customers.MIT.EDU)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Adv; Work at home, have a fun MAKE $$$$$ -CTVQ
Message-ID: <200101190705.XAA13034@toad.com>


This really is worth your valuable time, so...
PLEASE PRINT THIS NOW FOR READING AT YOUR LEISURE, 
YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Friend,

You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending E-mail.
Seem impossible?  Read on for details.  Is there a catch?  NO!!!  
There is no catch. Just send your emails; and, You will be on your 
way to financial freedom.
AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION:
Thank you for your time and Interest.  This is the letter you've been 
reading about in the news Lately.
Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news 
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the 
program described below to see, if it really can make people money.
The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.  
Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no 
laws prohibiting the participation in the program.  This has helped to 
show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make 
some extra money at home.
The results of this show have been truly remarkable.  So many people 
are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever 
before.
Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very 
exciting to be a part of lately.
You will understand once you experience it.
"HERE IT IS BELOW."
================================================
*** Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future
Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and 
the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!
Please read the enclosed Program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY.
It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard 
work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get 
the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that 
you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true.  This 
Multi-level e-mail order-marketing program work perfectly, 100% of 
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage 
of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!
The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your 
business using e-mail.  Get what is rightfully yours.  Program yourself 
for success and dare to think BIG.
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  
It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% 
and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level 
methods by the mid to late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in 
the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years 
in MLM.  Moreover, statistics have show that 45 people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
You may have heard this story before, but over the summer, Donald 
Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman show.  Dave 
asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over 
from scratch.  Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good 
network marketing company and get to work.
The audience started to hoot and boo him.  He looked out at the 
audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up 
here; and, you are all sitting out there!"
With network marketing, you have two sources of income.
Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions 
from sales made by people you introduce to the business.
Residual income is the secret of the wealthy.
It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and 
again and again.  In network marketing, it also means getting paid for 
the work of others.
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.



My name is Jonathan Rourke.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over 
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just 
couldn't seem to make ends meet.
I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family 
and struggling business.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant 
happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes 
that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail.  Six 
months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I 
received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too 
difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much 
for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed that I 
would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to 
write a book to make it!
But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program.  I 
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  
THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT !!!  After reading it several times, to 
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here 
was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further 
into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at 
least get my money back.  But like most of you I was still a little 
skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all.  So I 
checked it out with the U.S.  Post Office p4-hrs) and they confirmed 
that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and 
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."
Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15 for my time 
on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money 
for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are 
fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time.  I am telling you like it 
is.  I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would 
not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me.
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  Your 
goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 
WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL 
YOU DO!"
My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done.

By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  Your goal 
is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU 
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I 
sat back and relaxed.  By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I 
received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car.
Please take time to read the attached program,
IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work 
if you don't try it.
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially 
the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It won't 
work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!
In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ 
orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will 
make $50,000 or more in 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT 
WORKS!!!
If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It really 
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to 
financial security.
If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I 
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I 
DID!
Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke
PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!
------------------------------------------------------
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program, you may have 
concluded that an amateur could not have created such a legal 
program that works.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for 10 
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.  
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had 
been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment 
rates...because many of you know from first hand experience.  There 
were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were 
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including 
those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down 
into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET 
RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of 
making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation 
will see to that.
You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE 
BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months 
than you have ever imagined.
I should also point out that I would not see a penny of this money, nor 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have 
already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the 
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several 
offices that do this program and several other programs here and over 
seas.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in 
any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to e-mail 
a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  One of 
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will 
be on every one of them!  Remember though, the more you send out 
the more potential customers you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!

******************************************************

THINK ABOUT IT:
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will definitely get 
back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your 
first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA

******************************************************

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU
THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$
INSTRUCTIONS:
This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  
I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 
days.
Before you say, "BULL...  ", please read this program carefully.  This 
is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.  
Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we 
build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our 
products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level 
business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.  
YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so 
you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your 
own home, store, or office.
This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
This is what you MUST do:
1.	Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if 
you don't order them).

For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & 
NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN 
ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose 
name appears on the list next to the report.

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS!
When you place your order, make sure you order each 
of the four reports.  You will need all four reports so that 
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of 
the four reports.
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to 
send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.
2.	IMPORTANTDO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way 
other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will 
lose out on the majority of your profits.  Once you understand the 
way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change 
it.  Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it 
will not work.

a.	Look below for the listing of available reports.
b.	After you've ordered the four reports, take this
Advertisement and remove the name and address under 
REPORT #4.  This person has made it through the cycle and 
is no doubt counting their $50,000!
c.	Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to 
REPORT #4.
d.	Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to 
REPORT #3.
e.	Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to 
REPORT #2.
f.	Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you copy every name and address 
ACCURATELY!
Copy and paste method works well.
3.	Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and 
save it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the Instruction 
portion of this letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can 
afford $20).  You obviously already have an Internet Connection and 
e-mail is FREE!
To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 4 
reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 
information which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find 
thousands of free classified ads and much, much more.
There are two primary methods of building your downline:
METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs 
each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. 
Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many 
people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 
2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 
programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT 
#1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each 
for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and 
order REPORT #2.
Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 
200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  
Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  
The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That 
amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 
for a total of $55,550!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 
PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND 
TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT 
WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 
PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do 
just that, and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is 
practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection 
and e-mail is FREE !!!
REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you 
where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail 
lists.
METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
1.	Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are 
HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise.
Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.  
Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first 
level.  (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a 
larger response).  Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR 
ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.
Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same 
as email example):
1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50
2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500
3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000
4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000
THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550
Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only 
recruits 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if 
they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of 
participants!
THINK ABOUT IT!
For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report 
they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY 
SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail 
THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can't advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***
Notes:
ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH 
REPORT
CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED
ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL
Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two 
sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE 
SEEN AGAINST LIGHT)
On one of those sheets of paper, include:
(a)	the number & name of the report you are ordering,
(b)	your e-mail address, and
(c)	your name & postal address (as return address in case the 
post office encounters problems).

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Internet."
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Natalie Kowalczyk
3595 Copernicus Dr.
Mississauga, ON
L5B 3L3
Canada
______________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the 
Internet."
Victor Verosta
1324 28th Ave.
Fairbanks, AK 99701

______________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet."
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Frai Roorda
127 Franklin Drive
Voorhees, NJ 08043

______________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of 
Multilevel Marketing and the Internet."
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Joe Bogdanovich
6331 Highland Estates Drive
St. Louis, MO 63129
______________________________________________________



About 50,000 new people get online every day!
******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******
TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, 
and follow the directions accurately.
Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them 
when the orders start coming in because:
When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report.
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS 
YOU RECEIVE.
Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the 
instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!
ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU 
WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.  Then, a couple 
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2.  
If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.
Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in!
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a DIFFERENT report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income, 
send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the 
whole process again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate 
from this business!
Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in 
this program.  Please answer one question.....  DO YOU WANT TO 
CHANGE YOUR LIFE?
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this 
program:
1.	YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST 
ANYTHING TO PRODUCE!
2.	YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST 
ANYTHING TO SHIP!
3.	YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST 
YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing cost)!
4.	YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE 
POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR 
PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD!
5.	YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 AND 
BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME!
6.	VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS 
PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT!
7.	THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER.

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially 
the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't 
work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it 
works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, 
with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the 
program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.
Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR
******************************************************

My name is Mitchell.  My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL.  I am a 
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money.  When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about 
receiving "junk mail."  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my 
knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it 
wouldn't work.  Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and 
jumped in  with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready 
to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, 
the laugh was on me!
Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 
days, she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!  I was shocked!  I 
was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a 
believer now.  I have joined Jody in her "hobby."  I did have seven 
more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for 
me.  We owe it all to MLM.
Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL
******************************************************


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is 
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount 
of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I 
checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return 
for the minimal effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I 
received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
Charles Morris, Esq.
***************************************************

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am, I decided 
that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy, was I 
surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with 
orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up 
my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 
years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return.
Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA
**************************************************

I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed 
another program.  Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete 
this one!!!  I made more than $41,000 on the first try!!
Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA
****************************************************

This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, 
and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our 
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you 
do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this 
golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY
***************************************************
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR 
ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS 
POWERFUL
RESULTS
______________________________________________________



FOR YOUR INFORMATION:
If you need help with starting a business, registering a business 
name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local 
office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-
(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the 
Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free 
seminars about business tax requirements.
IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU HOW!!!
CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY???

NOTICE: This is NOT SPAM
You have received this message because we are both members of 
the same opt-in mailing list(s).or you send me e-mail





From declan at well.com  Thu Jan 18 21:18:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:18:25 -0500
Subject: John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]>; from freematt@coil.com on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:55:10AM -0500
References: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]>
Message-ID: <20010119001825.E30501@cluebot.com>


More on Ashcroft's tech record:
http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=ashcroft

But I wonder who really believes Ashcroft is being absolutely genuine
in his responses to Feinstein?

-Declan


On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:55:10AM -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> I happened to catch some of the confirmation hearings on CSPAN last 
> night.  Of particular interest was John Ashcroft's responses to 
> Dianne Feinstein's, (D-Calif.) questions.  Basically Ashcroft stated 
> that both Brady and the assault weapon bill are constitutional and 
> that he supported their continuance.  He said something to the effect 
> that "We need to move forward on these issues". He also mentioned 
> that he favored closing the "gun show loophole" (A view shared by 
> Republican sellouts).
> 
> On both 1st and 4th amendment issues, John Ashcroft has one of the 
> worst records on Capital Hill. Ashcroft sponsored the 
> "Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation
> Act" would have criminalized certain drug- and drug policy- related 
> discussions on the Internet, and would have allowed police to conduct 
> secret searches of homes, with the residents never being informed 
> before or after that the police were there.
> 
> It is my opinion that Yale grad Ashcraft is a phony conservative 
> (aside from the abortion issue) and phony constitutionalist.
> 
> Please visit http://www.StopJohnAshcroft.org today and help stop the 
> appointment of John Ashcroft as Attorney General -- or, just call the 
> Congressional Switchboard at (202) 224-3121, twice, have them 
> transfer you to each of your two Senators in turn, and urge they vote 
> "no" on the Ashcroft appointment.
> 
> Regards,  Matt-
> 
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
> Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> (614) 313-5722     Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/
> **************************************************************************
> 




From wolf at priori.net  Fri Jan 19 01:15:29 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:15:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rapid5 Networks, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74B8@cobra.netsolve.net>
Message-ID: <200101190722.CAA14575@Prometheus.schaefer.nu>

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From natalie at customers.MIT.EDU  Fri Jan 19 02:01:49 2001
From: natalie at customers.MIT.EDU (natalie at customers.MIT.EDU)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:01:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Adv; Work at home, have a fun MAKE $$$$$ -FELW
Message-ID: <200101191001.CAA23104@cyberpass.net>


This really is worth your valuable time, so...
PLEASE PRINT THIS NOW FOR READING AT YOUR LEISURE, 
YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Friend,

You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending E-mail.
Seem impossible?  Read on for details.  Is there a catch?  NO!!!  
There is no catch. Just send your emails; and, You will be on your 
way to financial freedom.
AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION:
Thank you for your time and Interest.  This is the letter you've been 
reading about in the news Lately.
Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news 
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the 
program described below to see, if it really can make people money.
The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.  
Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no 
laws prohibiting the participation in the program.  This has helped to 
show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make 
some extra money at home.
The results of this show have been truly remarkable.  So many people 
are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever 
before.
Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very 
exciting to be a part of lately.
You will understand once you experience it.
"HERE IT IS BELOW."
================================================
*** Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future
Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and 
the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!
Please read the enclosed Program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY.
It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard 
work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get 
the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that 
you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true.  This 
Multi-level e-mail order-marketing program work perfectly, 100% of 
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage 
of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!
The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your 
business using e-mail.  Get what is rightfully yours.  Program yourself 
for success and dare to think BIG.
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  
It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% 
and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level 
methods by the mid to late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in 
the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years 
in MLM.  Moreover, statistics have show that 45 people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
You may have heard this story before, but over the summer, Donald 
Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman show.  Dave 
asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over 
from scratch.  Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good 
network marketing company and get to work.
The audience started to hoot and boo him.  He looked out at the 
audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up 
here; and, you are all sitting out there!"
With network marketing, you have two sources of income.
Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions 
from sales made by people you introduce to the business.
Residual income is the secret of the wealthy.
It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and 
again and again.  In network marketing, it also means getting paid for 
the work of others.
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.



My name is Jonathan Rourke.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over 
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just 
couldn't seem to make ends meet.
I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family 
and struggling business.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant 
happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes 
that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail.  Six 
months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I 
received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too 
difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much 
for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed that I 
would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to 
write a book to make it!
But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program.  I 
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  
THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT !!!  After reading it several times, to 
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here 
was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further 
into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at 
least get my money back.  But like most of you I was still a little 
skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all.  So I 
checked it out with the U.S.  Post Office p4-hrs) and they confirmed 
that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and 
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."
Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15 for my time 
on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money 
for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are 
fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time.  I am telling you like it 
is.  I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would 
not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me.
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  Your 
goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 
WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL 
YOU DO!"
My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done.

By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  Your goal 
is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU 
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I 
sat back and relaxed.  By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I 
received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car.
Please take time to read the attached program,
IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work 
if you don't try it.
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially 
the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It won't 
work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!
In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ 
orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will 
make $50,000 or more in 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT 
WORKS!!!
If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It really 
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to 
financial security.
If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I 
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I 
DID!
Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke
PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!
------------------------------------------------------
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program, you may have 
concluded that an amateur could not have created such a legal 
program that works.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for 10 
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.  
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had 
been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment 
rates...because many of you know from first hand experience.  There 
were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were 
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including 
those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down 
into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET 
RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The traditional methods of 
making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation 
will see to that.
You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE 
BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months 
than you have ever imagined.
I should also point out that I would not see a penny of this money, nor 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have 
already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the 
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several 
offices that do this program and several other programs here and over 
seas.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in 
any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to e-mail 
a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  One of 
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will 
be on every one of them!  Remember though, the more you send out 
the more potential customers you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!

******************************************************

THINK ABOUT IT:
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will definitely get 
back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your 
first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA

******************************************************

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU
THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$
INSTRUCTIONS:
This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  
I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 
days.
Before you say, "BULL...  ", please read this program carefully.  This 
is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.  
Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we 
build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our 
products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level 
business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.  
YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so 
you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your 
own home, store, or office.
This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
This is what you MUST do:
1.	Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if 
you don't order them).

For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & 
NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN 
ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose 
name appears on the list next to the report.

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS!
When you place your order, make sure you order each 
of the four reports.  You will need all four reports so that 
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of 
the four reports.
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to 
send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.
2.	IMPORTANTDO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way 
other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will 
lose out on the majority of your profits.  Once you understand the 
way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change 
it.  Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it 
will not work.

a.	Look below for the listing of available reports.
b.	After you've ordered the four reports, take this
Advertisement and remove the name and address under 
REPORT #4.  This person has made it through the cycle and 
is no doubt counting their $50,000!
c.	Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to 
REPORT #4.
d.	Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to 
REPORT #3.
e.	Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to 
REPORT #2.
f.	Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you copy every name and address 
ACCURATELY!
Copy and paste method works well.
3.	Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and 
save it to your computer.  Make NO changes to the Instruction 
portion of this letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can 
afford $20).  You obviously already have an Internet Connection and 
e-mail is FREE!
To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 4 
reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 
information which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find 
thousands of free classified ads and much, much more.
There are two primary methods of building your downline:
METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs 
each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. 
Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many 
people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 
2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 
programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT 
#1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each 
for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and 
order REPORT #2.
Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 
200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  
Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  
The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That 
amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 
for a total of $55,550!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 
PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND 
TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT 
WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 
PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do 
just that, and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is 
practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection 
and e-mail is FREE !!!
REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you 
where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail 
lists.
METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
1.	Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are 
HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise.
Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works.  
Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first 
level.  (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a 
larger response).  Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR 
ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.
Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same 
as email example):
1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50
2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500
3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000
4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000
THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550
Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only 
recruits 10 people each.  Think for a moment what would happen if 
they got 20 people to participate!  Most people get 100's of 
participants!
THINK ABOUT IT!
For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report 
they ordered.  THAT'S IT!  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY 
SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!  This will guarantee that the e-mail 
THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can't advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------
AVAILABLE REPORTS
------------------------------------------

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***
Notes:
ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH 
REPORT
CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED
ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL
Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two 
sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE 
SEEN AGAINST LIGHT)
On one of those sheets of paper, include:
(a)	the number & name of the report you are ordering,
(b)	your e-mail address, and
(c)	your name & postal address (as return address in case the 
post office encounters problems).

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
______________________________________________________
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Internet."
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Natalie Kowalczyk
3595 Copernicus Dr.
Mississauga, ON
L5B 3L3
Canada
______________________________________________________
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the 
Internet."
Victor Verosta
1324 28th Ave.
Fairbanks, AK 99701

______________________________________________________
REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet."
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Frai Roorda
127 Franklin Drive
Voorhees, NJ 08043

______________________________________________________
REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of 
Multilevel Marketing and the Internet."
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Joe Bogdanovich
6331 Highland Estates Drive
St. Louis, MO 63129
______________________________________________________



About 50,000 new people get online every day!
******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******
TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Be prompt, professional, 
and follow the directions accurately.
Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them 
when the orders start coming in because:
When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report.
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS 
YOU RECEIVE.
Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the 
instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!
ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU 
WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.  Then, a couple 
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2.  
If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.
Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in!
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a DIFFERENT report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you.  If you want to generate more income, 
send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the 
whole process again!  There is no limit to the income you will generate 
from this business!
Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in 
this program.  Please answer one question.....  DO YOU WANT TO 
CHANGE YOUR LIFE?
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this 
program:
1.	YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST 
ANYTHING TO PRODUCE!
2.	YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST 
ANYTHING TO SHIP!
3.	YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST 
YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing cost)!
4.	YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE 
POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR 
PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD!
5.	YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 AND 
BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME!
6.	VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS 
PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT!
7.	THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER.

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially 
the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't 
work and you'll lose a lot of potential income.  I'm living proof that it 
works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, 
with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the 
program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.
Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR
******************************************************

My name is Mitchell.  My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL.  I am a 
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money.  When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about 
receiving "junk mail."  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my 
knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it 
wouldn't work.  Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and 
jumped in  with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready 
to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, 
the laugh was on me!
Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 
days, she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills!  I was shocked!  I 
was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work.  I AM a 
believer now.  I have joined Jody in her "hobby."  I did have seven 
more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for 
me.  We owe it all to MLM.
Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL
******************************************************


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is 
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount 
of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I 
checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return 
for the minimal effort and money required.  To my astonishment, I 
received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
Charles Morris, Esq.
***************************************************

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am, I decided 
that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy, was I 
surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with 
orders!  For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up 
my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 
years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't 
matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a 
faster return.
Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA
**************************************************

I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed 
another program.  Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete 
this one!!!  I made more than $41,000 on the first try!!
Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA
****************************************************

This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, 
and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our 
money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you 
do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this 
golden opportunity.  Good luck and happy spending!
Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY
***************************************************
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR 
ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS 
POWERFUL
RESULTS
______________________________________________________



FOR YOUR INFORMATION:
If you need help with starting a business, registering a business 
name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local 
office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-
(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the 
Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free 
seminars about business tax requirements.
IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU HOW!!!
CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY???

NOTICE: This is NOT SPAM
You have received this message because we are both members of 
the same opt-in mailing list(s).or you send me e-mail





From commerce at home.com  Thu Jan 18 23:46:34 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:46:34 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
References: <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com><3A64D5F7.5886.F72F3B@localhost><20010117131831.D4050@ideath.parrhesia.com><20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <025501c081eb$f29ee090$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Reese" <reeza at flex.com>
>  >In my opinion, anyone that doesn't burn little children in
their
>  >churches is at least an order of magnitude better than Janet
>  >Reno.
> Reno burned little kids in their church, because of the
FIREARMS
> held or believed to be held somewhere on or around the
compound.
> You might want to reappraise.

Well, as long as she had a good reason...





From lineup at pd.jaring.my  Fri Jan 19 03:04:00 2001
From: lineup at pd.jaring.my (lineup at pd.jaring.my)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:04:00
Subject: Homeworker Needed
Message-ID: <200101181628.IAA18076@cyberpass.net>


Are you interested in earning more than $1200? We're seeking 
people to help  us with typing and data processing at home. Only  
serious applicants need to apply.







************************************************************
 This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: of S. 
 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email   
 may be stopped at no cost to you by sending  a reply to this    
email address with the word "remove" in the subject line."
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan 19 08:52:46 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:52:46 -0800
Subject: SpamCop authorization code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101191719130.26724-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
 I>
References: <200101191426.f0JEQIN07880@sam.julianhaight.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010119085246.00b84a90@idiom.com>


At 05:28 PM 1/19/01 +0200, Sampo A Syreeni wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 cypherpunks at toad.com wrote:
>
>Oh, the irony. Spam on this list thanking you for helping rid the Net of
>spam, a split second after telling you to share the included URL with no
>one. That one could be used to demonstrate anything from the effect of the
>human factor on access control schemes, to the futility of security through
>obscurity, through to the apparent omnipresence of Those Who Definitely Need
>Killing. Made my day...

It's not really spam - it's response mail from a site where
somebody registered with cypherpunks at wherever as their email.
The "Don't Share this with anyone" aspect is fun, though.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan 19 09:17:29 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:17:29 -0800
Subject: Yet another spam generator
In-Reply-To: <3A682943.7A13CD7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010119091729.00b80960@idiom.com>


At 11:47 AM 1/19/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>http://www.spammimic.com/encode.cgi supposedly encodes your short
>messages as imitation spam, postings designed to fail content filtering
>& so (the author claims) bypass Echelon. Hmmm.  Whoever put the site up
>doesn't seem to have a clear distinction between cryptography,
>stenography & obfuscation.  Does everyone have to reinvent the wheel
>every time? Are we going to go through it all *again* with mobile phone
>text messages?

You're missing the point - it's intended as a steganography system,
and like most such, it won't stop somebody who has the same system
from destegoing it, but it will stop or substantially reduce the
likelihood of Echelon or similar keyword systems from snarfing it.
(You could also do a terrorist-mimic version* if you want to
_increase_ the chances of Echelon picking it up.)

Of course if you need security, you need to stego cyphertext only.
The web site probably should emphasize this, but you can always
paste in PGP output.  (Obviously you'd really want to run the code on 
your own machine and those of your unindicted co-conspirators,
and use custom grammars.)

I have a friend who could have really used a program like this
a few years ago - he was working in Ethiopia, and he had enough trouble
keeping the local kleptocrats from stealing his computers
"they don't run without the passwords, so you can't resell them"
and the phone company yelled at him for making phone calls in Dutch,
which their eavesdroppers couldn't understand; French or Italian
or English would have been ok if he wasn't using a local language.
We got him a copy of PGP, but he didn't feel safe using it.

>It seems to be a version of Peter Wayner's bumf generator from way back
>when: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/11.71.html#subj2 

I think it _was_ Peter Wayner who posted it - this is an implementation
of his "mimic functions" paper from some years ago.

>(Which has a very funny bit in the style of a Neil Kinnock speech - 
>maybe you have to be in the Labour Party to get it...)

My former Senator, Joe Biden, got caught for plagiarizing Kinnock once -
it doesn't take a computer to generate bad speeches :-)

Does anybody have a copy of the Dilbert cartoon where
Dilbert's written a "Pointy-Haired-Boss-Speak" version of this?


~~~~~~~
Semtex Escobar Cocaine Radio Echelon TEMPEST 
Pablo Assassinate Semtex Semtex W Osama's Radio Directionfinding
~~~~~~
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From billybob at syringa.net  Fri Jan 19 09:18:47 2001
From: billybob at syringa.net (William Weinmann)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:18:47 -0800
Subject: What are you all about???
Message-ID: <3A6876F7.CC183C5C@syringa.net>







From cypherpunks at toad.com  Fri Jan 19 06:26:18 2001
From: cypherpunks at toad.com (cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:26:18 -0500
Subject: SpamCop authorization code
Message-ID: <200101191426.f0JEQIN07880@sam.julianhaight.com>


Someone (probably you) has requested that SpamCop email you an
authorization key.  You may use this key to send spam reports via
SpamCop.  Never post this URL publicly or share it with others.  If
you do, anyone who sees it will be able to impersonate you and send
email via SpamCop as if they were you.

Here is your authorization key:
http://spamcop.net/?code=z5c747f23d5862927192d12d5c51c900azcypherpunks%40toad.com

Put this URL into your web-browser.  Once you get to the SpamCop site,
bookmark that page.  Then just use the bookmark to return when you get
some spam.

If your system has somehow mangled the above URL, you may get an error
instead of the correct results.  If you do, you can complete the process
manually by visiting this page:
http://spamcop.net/manual_auth.shtml

And entering your authorization code manually:
z5c747f23d5862927192d12d5c51c900azcypherpunks at toad.com

If you have questions or problems, please read the FAQ on the site.

Thanks for helping rid the internet of spam!




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan 19 09:29:58 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:29:58 -0800
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010119092958.00b80bd0@idiom.com>


At 12:19 PM 1/18/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>According to Rep. Barr, however, "These Executive orders 
>limit the swift, sure, and precise action needed by the 
>United States to protect our national security."
>
>Rep. Barr did not indicate exactly who he wants the Government to 
>assassinate.  His bill does say, encouragingly, that assassination 
>"is a remedy which should be used sparingly."

It's obviously to prevent another Clinton administration,
just as it was used to prevent various Kennedy administrations :-)
Also takes care of any lingering Gore recount problems.

Constitutionally, before you assassinate someone, 
you have to propery indict the target and hold a trial in which
he or she is present, has a lawyer available, 
and is allowed to question the witnesses and appeal whether any
sentence of death is cruel or unusual punishment.
_Then_ you can sneak up on them and kill them,
or poison their cigars, or give them an Israeli cellphone
or a Ford Pinto.


	"You can't arrest him, he's a Sovereign"
	"So declare war on him"
	"That's a dumb move against someone with nuclear weapons"


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From shadow2468 at hotpop.com  Fri Jan 19 10:36:08 2001
From: shadow2468 at hotpop.com (shadow2468 at hotpop.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:36:08
Subject: Need a Vacation? It's Free!    
Message-ID: <200101191721.JAA22652@toad.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 2626 bytes
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URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks-legacy/attachments/20010119/d0aaf597/attachment.txt>

From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan 19 03:47:15 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:47:15 +0000
Subject: Yet another spam generator
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3A682943.7A13CD7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


http://www.spammimic.com/encode.cgi supposedly encodes your short
messages as imitation spam, postings designed to fail content filtering
& so (the author claims) bypass Echelon. Hmmm.  Whoever put the site up
doesn't seem to have a clear distinction between cryptography,
stenography & obfuscation.  Does everyone have to reinvent the wheel
every time? Are we going to go through it all *again* with mobile phone
text messages?

It seems to be a version of Peter Wayner's bumf generator from way back
when: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/11.71.html#subj2 (Which has a very
funny bit in the style of a Neil Kinnock speech - maybe you have to be
in the Labour Party to get it...)

I don't think it is going to cause NSA any headaches. What chance do
they have of knowing about a method which has only been described in
Byte and on Risks? Presumably if you  identify a posting as having been
through Mimic & you can get enough text to recover the model you can
retrieve plaintext reasonably easily - so the secure use should be based
on ciphertext, not plaintext & perhaps would avoid using models freely
available on the web. (there was some discussion on similar stuff on
coderpunks & cypherpunks a few years back)
http://privacy.nb.ca/cryptography/archives/coderpunks/new/1998-03/0214.html 

But it generates mildly amusing  parodies of spam. Not as good as the
Neil Kinnock though.

Ken Brown

"You will shortly be in communication with Otis" translates to:

Dear E-Commerce professional , Your email address has 
been submitted to us indicating your interest in our 
briefing . If you are not interested in our publications 
and wish to be removed from our lists, simply do NOT 
respond and ignore this mail . This mail is being sent 
in compliance with Senate bill 2516 , Title 1 , Section 
303 . This is not multi-level marketing ! Why work 
for somebody else when you can become rich within 16 
DAYS ! Have you ever noticed people love convenience 
and nearly every commercial on television has a .com 
on in it . Well, now is your chance to capitalize on 
this ! We will help you deliver goods right to the 
customer's doorstep & deliver goods right to the customer's 
doorstep ! You can begin at absolutely no cost to you 
! But don't believe us ! Ms Ames of Alabama tried us 
and says "I was skeptical but it worked for me" ! We 
are a BBB member in good standing ! We BESEECH you 
- act now ! Sign up a friend and you get half off ! 
Thank-you for your serious consideration of our offer 
! Dear Decision maker , This letter was specially selected 
to be sent to you . We will comply with all removal 
requests . This mail is being sent in compliance with 
Senate bill 1621 , Title 1 , Section 306 ! THIS IS 
NOT MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING . Why work for somebody else 
when you can become rich in 80 weeks ! Have you ever 
noticed people will do almost anything to avoid mailing 
their bills & society seems to be moving faster and 
faster . Well, now is your chance to capitalize on 
this ! We will help you turn your business into an 
E-BUSINESS plus turn your business into an E-BUSINESS 
. You can begin at absolutely no cost to you ! But 
don't believe us . Mr Simpson of New Mexico tried us 
and says "I was skeptical but it worked for me" ! We 
are a BBB member in good standing ! If not for you 
then for your loved ones - act now ! Sign up a friend 
and you get half off ! Thanks ! Dear Friend , Especially 
for you - this red-hot announcement ! We will comply 
with all removal requests . This mail is being sent 
in compliance with Senate bill 1816 ; Title 4 ; Section 
309 ! THIS IS NOT A GET RICH SCHEME ! Why work for 
somebody else when you can become rich within 61 MONTHS 
! Have you ever noticed people love convenience and 
nearly every commercial on television has a .com on 
in it . Well, now is your chance to capitalize on this 
! We will help you turn your business into an E-BUSINESS 
& SELL MORE . You are guaranteed to succeed because 
we take all the risk . But don't believe us ! Ms Anderson 
who resides in Utah tried us and says "My only problem 
now is where to park all my cars" ! This offer is 100% 
legal ! Because the Internet operates on "Internet 
time" you must hurry . Sign up a friend and you get 
half off . Thanks ! Dear Friend ; You made the right 
decision when you signed up for our directory . If 
you no longer wish to receive our publications simply 
reply with a Subject: of "REMOVE" and you will immediately 
be removed from our directory ! This mail is being 
sent in compliance with Senate bill 1624 , Title 1 
, Section 307 ! THIS IS NOT A GET RICH SCHEME . Why 
work for somebody else when you can become rich in 
48 MONTHS ! Have you ever noticed how long the line-ups 
are at bank machines and nearly every commercial on 
television has a .com on in it ! Well, now is your 
chance to capitalize on this ! WE will help YOU turn 
your business into an E-BUSINESS plus use credit cards 
on your website . You can begin at absolutely no cost 
to you . But don't believe us ! Mr Ames who resides 
in Nebraska tried us and says "Now I'm rich, Rich, 
RICH" . We are licensed to operate in all states ! 
For the sake of your family order now ! Sign up a friend 
and you get half off . Thank-you for your serious consideration 
of our offer !




From ganapathi_kr at visualsoft-tech.com  Thu Jan 18 22:37:38 2001
From: ganapathi_kr at visualsoft-tech.com (Ganapathi Reddy K)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:07:38 +0530
Subject: REMOVE A-04- 
References: <200110190630.BAA04599@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <001301c081e2$50f37b60$49050cbf@visualsofttech.com>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Garnet Jackson" <cuatdtopu2 at refercentral.com>
To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 11:58 AM
Subject: Life Is Like A Box Of Chocolates


> Dear Associate,
>
> My name is Garnet Jackson. We may have communicated in
> some way in the past or you are on a Safe Opt In List
> and your e-mail address is on my database.
>
> There are THREE kinds of people.
>
> There are people who own a home based business, people
> who had one, but quit, and people who are neither in
> one or who have never been in one...yet.
>
> You may be saying to yourself right at this moment, "Who
> do you think you are? I don't need a home-based business!
> I make great money now and I'm way too busy as it is."
>
> I submit that it's time to reconsider!. ;^)
>
> If you already make great coin, you need a home-based
> business purely for the write offs. It's also possible that
> your current state of income ecstasy could change at any
> moment. Life is like a box of chocolates you never know
> what you are gonna get!!!
>
> Planning is the accessible program for anyone to reach
> financial independence.
>
> Plan to make extra.
>
> Plan to save extra.
>
> Plan for unexpected catastrophes.
>
> What you don't need is a ball and chain.
>
> I'm talking about old-school home-based businesses that make
> a lot of false promises.
>
> Many opportunities sell you on spending more time at home
> with your family when in reality they take you away more
> often. If that was your image of home-based business, I would
> join you in your denial of my prophecy.
>
> If I told you that you could turn a $99.00 investment into
> a 7 figure income in 1 year, you probably would not believe
> it! But what if I could show you step by step how it is done?
> Would you be willing to take the time to review the program?
> You will be Amazed at how simple it is! And this is just the
> beginning...You will be in a position to earn more than you
> ever imagined because...OUR PRODUCT IS PROFIT!!!
>
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> LET US SHOW YOU THE MONEY!!!
>
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> ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD AND GET STARTED RIGHT AWAY!
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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> HAVE BEEN WASTING YOUR TIME! And I'M WILLING TO BET THEY
> HAVEN'T MADE YOU THE KIND OF MONEY YOU HAD HOPED FOR, EITHER.
>
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> rock your world! FORGET SELLING PRODUCTS AND SERVICES! FORGET
> ALL THE HYPE YOU'VE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE AND START
> PROMOTING PROFIT AS IN $$$
>
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> money-making system.
>
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> we have all been brainwashed on, folks! We are talking about
> TWO PEOPLE HERE! THAT'S RIGHT TWO PEOPLE WHO GET TWO PEOPLE!!
> WHEN THESE 2 FOLLOW YOU THRU THE 7 STEPS OF OUR PROGRAM......
> ...YOU MAKE BIG $$$ ....AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING!!!!!!
>
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> INCOME WITH ONLY 60 PEOPLE IN YOUR ENTIRE ORGANIZATION!!!
> Wouldn't that create Security for your precious loved ones
> by eliminating the burden of debt!
>
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> JOB and make your Boss rich!
>
> Contact me when you're ready to really make money that makes a difference!
>
> You'll be proud of what you are doing.
>
> Naturally you'll be wanting more information, so send a blank
> email to <actionj at mail.com> with 'SEND ME THE MANUAL' in the
> subject and your FIRST AND LAST NAME so I can address you
> properly.
>
> Garnet Jackson
>
> If you would like to remain on my database and have the
> occasional information or program details sent to you
> please do nothing.
>
> Should you wish to never receive mail from me again please
> click reply, put -REMOVE A-04- in the Subject and I will
> remove you from my database.
>
>




From Gerry_Inman at mony.com  Fri Jan 19 09:13:21 2001
From: Gerry_Inman at mony.com (Gerry_Inman at mony.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:13:21 -0500
Subject: SpamCop authorization code
Message-ID: <852569D9.005F0C80.00@snt-smtp-01.soc.mony.com>




I did not request this and I do not want it!! Please stop sending this S__T to
me .......Gerry Inman




|--------+----------------------->
|        |          cypherpunks at t|
|        |          oad.com      |
|        |                       |
|        |          01/19/01     |
|        |          09:26 AM     |
|        |                       |
|--------+----------------------->
  >--------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                        |
  |       To:     cypherpunks at toad.com                     |
  |       cc:     (bcc: Gerry Inman/IT/MONY)               |
  |       Subject:     SpamCop authorization code          |
  >--------------------------------------------------------|



Someone (probably you) has requested that SpamCop email you an
authorization key.  You may use this key to send spam reports via
SpamCop.  Never post this URL publicly or share it with others.  If
you do, anyone who sees it will be able to impersonate you and send
email via SpamCop as if they were you.

Here is your authorization key:
http://spamcop.net/?code=z5c747f23d5862927192d12d5c51c900azcypherpunks%40toad.com


Put this URL into your web-browser.  Once you get to the SpamCop site,
bookmark that page.  Then just use the bookmark to return when you get
some spam.

If your system has somehow mangled the above URL, you may get an error
instead of the correct results.  If you do, you can complete the process
manually by visiting this page:
http://spamcop.net/manual_auth.shtml

And entering your authorization code manually:
z5c747f23d5862927192d12d5c51c900azcypherpunks at toad.com

If you have questions or problems, please read the FAQ on the site.

Thanks for helping rid the internet of spam!








From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Jan 19 11:14:46 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:14:46 -0600
Subject: John Ashcroft
References: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]> <20010119001825.E30501@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3A688FDC.DB7AE628@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>



1. Cops and Robbers:  Exposés Find Ashcroft Encouraged
   Constitutional Violations in Missouri Asset Forfeiture Cases,
   Police Agencies Kept Funds Intended for Schools
   http://www.drcnet.org/wol/169.html#copsrobbers

An article by investigative journalist Dan Forbes, released
yesterday evening by the Progressive Review
(http://www.prorev.org), has confirmed something that drug war
observers had strongly suspected:  John Ashcroft, as Missouri
Governor, agreed to "look the other why" while state police
federalized asset forfeitures in order to keep money seized in
their agencies -- violating a Missouri constitutional requirement
that forfeiture funds instead go to the state's school system.

If this information receives the attention it merits, it will
raise serious questions about the AG nominee's willingness to
obey the spirit as well as the letter of the law.  Information
provided in recent weeks by DRCNet made the case that legislation
sponsored by John Ashcroft as Senator showed a disregard for the
1st and 4th amendments to the bill of rights of the US
Constitution (http://www.stopjohnashcroft.org).  Now, hard
evidence exists showing a disregard for the Missouri state
constitution as well, in Ashcroft's actual practice as the
state's chief executive.  Strongly suggestive evidence of the
same was also presented, earlier the same day, by syndicated
columnist Arianna Huffington.

Asset forfeiture reform is an issue that has recently received
bipartisan attention.  Legislation championed by Rep. Henry Hyde
(R-IL) to curb some excesses of federal asset forfeiture law was
passed by an overwhelming margin in the House of Representatives,
and unanimously in the Senate, last year.  The issue is drawing
increased scrutiny in state governments as well; for example,
forfeiture was a major topic at a recent conference of southern
state legislators, with action promised by some attendees
(http://www.drcnet.org/wol/161.html#southernforfeiture).

Some states have specifically addressed the issue of forfeiture
federalizations.  A ballot initiative passed by Utah voters this
November diverts asset forfeiture proceeds into education, a
similar initiative in Oregon into drug treatment.  The Missouri
Constitution requires that asset forfeiture funds be transferred
to the school system.  In Utah and Oregon, a court hearing would
be required before any funds are transferred to the federal
government, and would mandate that any funds returned would be
used as specified in the initiatives.

More than spending choices lies at the heart of such
requirements.  One of the harms of asset forfeiture is the
distortion of law enforcement priorities and standards -- police
agencies will sometimes choose cases that promise a lucrative
forfeiture take over other cases with greater bearing on public
safety -- and the lure of forfeited drug money provides an
incentive to take shortcuts with suspects' Constitutional rights.
Requiring that forfeited funds go to budgetary areas other than
law enforcement is intended to reduce those risks.

In order to circumvent state laws imposing such requirements,
however, police agencies will often turn forfeiture cases over to
the federal government, which in turn will return most of the
money back to the state or local police, rather than to the
places the state legislatures intended.  This is what happened in
Missouri -- where a provision of the state's Constitution,
affirmed by the courts and the legislature, directs that
forfeiture proceeds go to the schools instead.

The aiding and abetting, by a top state official and the US
Department of Justice, of a constitutional violation by that
state's police agencies to keep money that lawfully should have
gone to the state's schools, could well be seen as having bearing
on that official's suitability to head the Department of Justice.

Read Dan Forbes' detailed expose at http://www.prorev.com -- and
Arianna Huffington's column at
http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/011801.html -- and
decide for yourself.




From jburnes at savvis.net  Fri Jan 19 11:52:56 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:52:56 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
References: <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Thursday 18 January 2001 23:00, Reese wrote:
> At 11:56 AM 1/18/01 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>  >On Thursday 18 January 2001 10:15, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>  >> Quite right. Ashcroft is objectionable, as is any candidate George W.
>  >> would propose, but he is arguably less objectionable than Reno.
>  >>
>  >> Here's what he said yesterday about Microsoft:
>  >> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41264,00.html
>  >
>  >To all the people who find Ashcroft objectionable, let me concur
>  >with Declan that there is no one they will not find objectionable.
>  >In my opinion, anyone that doesn't burn little children in their
>  >churches is at least an order of magnitude better than Janet
>  >Reno.
>
> Reno burned little kids in their church, because of the FIREARMS held
> or believed to be held somewhere on or around the compound.
>
> You might want to reappraise.

I've appraised the Waco scenario more than most.  You might want to 
do a little digging before you trumpet the statist line.  I don't
know if you're a US citizen Reese, but owning firearms in Texas is
not a reason to burn and gas people alive.  Go get informed.

>
>  >I'd also like to point out that anything he says in the confirmation
>  >hearings is likely to be whatever he thinks the questioner wants to
>  >hear.
>
> Agree, but -
>
>  >He will whisper sweet nothings into Dianne Feinstein's ear about his
>  >new plans for the fascist state if he thinks it will turn Feinswein's
>  >vote.
>  >
>  >Do you really think Feinswein will vote for him?
>
> - asskrack is on record about firearms, elsewhere.  If firearms are as
> large an issue to her as they are to others, probably.

Unlikely.  My guess is that his so-called record, while not stellar A+
NRA material, is certainly a lot better than most.  He is almost certainly
telling Feinswein exactly what she wants to hear.  His most egregious 
downfall is his position on the drug war.  This is the most critical of
all positions and the one that the media is curiously un-interested in.

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From customerservice at speedreader.org  Fri Jan 19 11:11:02 2001
From: customerservice at speedreader.org (Customer Service)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:11:02 -0500
Subject: ADV: Learn this simple technique to improve your reading speed... Download Now!
Message-ID: <200101191911.f0JJBX520847@wormhole.bluestar.net>


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From shardy at verizonmail.com  Fri Jan 19 11:12:02 2001
From: shardy at verizonmail.com (shardy at verizonmail.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 14:12:02 EST
Subject: Fail-Safe Money-Making System!
Message-ID: <199912112040.MAA94626@addr5.addr.com>


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mailto:shardy20 at verizonmail.com?subject=Remove
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From rsw at mit.edu  Fri Jan 19 11:51:32 2001
From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:51:32 -0500
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010119092958.00b80bd0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:29:58AM -0800
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20010119092958.00b80bd0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010119145132.A5826@positron.mit.edu>

Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com> wrote:
> Constitutionally, before you assassinate someone, 
> you have to propery indict the target and hold a trial in which
> he or she is present, has a lawyer available, 
> and is allowed to question the witnesses and appeal whether any
> sentence of death is cruel or unusual punishment.
> _Then_ you can sneak up on them and kill them,
> or poison their cigars, or give them an Israeli cellphone
> or a Ford Pinto.

Isn't it easier to just give Israel some more military supplies to
help them defend themselves from Palestinians throwing rocks and, oh,
by the way, could you have the Mossad take care of so-and-so?

:-)

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Fri Jan 19 11:53:55 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:53:55 -0500
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010119092958.00b80bd0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:29:58AM -0800
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20010119092958.00b80bd0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010119145355.B5826@positron.mit.edu>


Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com> wrote:
> Constitutionally, before you assassinate someone, 
> you have to propery indict the target and hold a trial in which
> he or she is present, has a lawyer available, 
> and is allowed to question the witnesses and appeal whether any
> sentence of death is cruel or unusual punishment.
> _Then_ you can sneak up on them and kill them,
> or poison their cigars, or give them an Israeli cellphone
> or a Ford Pinto.

Isn't it easier to just give Israel some more military supplies to
help them defend themselves from Palestinians throwing rocks and, oh,
by the way, could you have the Mossad take care of so-and-so?

:-)

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Fri Jan 19 12:04:32 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:04:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200101192004.PAA11062@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com>



Dear cypherpunks0101,

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From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 19 18:13:32 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:13:32 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>


At 01:52 PM 1/19/01 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
 >On Thursday 18 January 2001 23:00, Reese wrote:
 >> At 11:56 AM 1/18/01 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
 >>  >On Thursday 18 January 2001 10:15, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >>  >> Quite right. Ashcroft is objectionable, as is any candidate George W.
 >>  >> would propose, but he is arguably less objectionable than Reno.
 >>  >>
 >>  >> Here's what he said yesterday about Microsoft:
 >>  >> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41264,00.html
 >>  >
 >>  >To all the people who find Ashcroft objectionable, let me concur
 >>  >with Declan that there is no one they will not find objectionable.
 >>  >In my opinion, anyone that doesn't burn little children in their
 >>  >churches is at least an order of magnitude better than Janet
 >>  >Reno.
 >>
 >> Reno burned little kids in their church, because of the FIREARMS held
 >> or believed to be held somewhere on or around the compound.
 >>
 >> You might want to reappraise.
 >
 >I've appraised the Waco scenario more than most.  You might want to
 >do a little digging before you trumpet the statist line.  I don't
 >know if you're a US citizen Reese, but owning firearms in Texas is
 >not a reason to burn and gas people alive.  Go get informed.

Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?

And _you_ think _I've_ bought into a statist line.

 >>  >I'd also like to point out that anything he says in the confirmation
 >>  >hearings is likely to be whatever he thinks the questioner wants to
 >>  >hear.
 >>
 >> Agree, but -
 >>
 >>  >He will whisper sweet nothings into Dianne Feinstein's ear about his
 >>  >new plans for the fascist state if he thinks it will turn Feinswein's
 >>  >vote.
 >>  >
 >>  >Do you really think Feinswein will vote for him?
 >>
 >> - asskrack is on record about firearms, elsewhere.  If firearms are as
 >> large an issue to her as they are to others, probably.
 >
 >Unlikely.  My guess is that his so-called record, while not stellar A+
 >NRA material, is certainly a lot better than most.  He is almost certainly
 >telling Feinswein exactly what she wants to hear.  His most egregious
 >downfall is his position on the drug war.  This is the most critical of
 >all positions and the one that the media is curiously un-interested in.

Indeed.

Reese




From pressroom at published.com  Fri Jan 19 16:15:28 2001
From: pressroom at published.com (The Press Room)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:15:28 -0800
Subject: Inaugural Bumper Stickers - Add yours...
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010119160748.00a38de0@pop3.amexol.net>


It's OKAY to question the legitimacy of the Bush presidency! Year's from now, history will reflect what the Supreme Court's decision triggered: The removal of Republican Congressional power in 2002, and the subsequent overhaul of our voting system, so that the true wishes of the people are expressed. 

The following bumper stickers are taken from http://MesaVistaPress.com You can order pro-Bush stickers, too, or make one that says ANYTHING YOU LIKE. Add to the following list there or in this forum...

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 19 15:18:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:18:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: openpgp.net & whgiii dropped
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119171758.5612H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

I've removed boht whgiii and openpgp.net from my subscriptions. They have
been bouncing continously for a couple of days now.

I guess they need a sys admin who knows what they're doing...

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Fri Jan 19 07:28:05 2001
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:28:05 +0200 (EET)
Subject: SpamCop authorization code
In-Reply-To: <200101191426.f0JEQIN07880@sam.julianhaight.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101191719130.26724-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 cypherpunks at toad.com wrote:

Oh, the irony. Spam on this list thanking you for helping rid the Net of
spam, a split second after telling you to share the included URL with no
one. That one could be used to demonstrate anything from the effect of the
human factor on access control schemes, to the futility of security through
obscurity, through to the apparent omnipresence of Those Who Definitely Need
Killing. Made my day...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From rda7451 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 19 17:48:04 2001
From: rda7451 at yahoo.com (rda7451 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:48:04
Subject: I WAS BROKE! Now I Earn Thousands Monthly...Here's How...
Message-ID: <629.428256.670369@mail.netidea.com>


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From member_update at mp3.com  Fri Jan 19 17:48:49 2001
From: member_update at mp3.com (member_update at mp3.com)
Date: Fri, 19  Jan  2001 17:48:49 -0800
Subject: Track Reactivations, Webcast & More!
Message-ID: <20010120014849.4299.qmail@cannon1.mp3.com>

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From void at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 19 15:42:53 2001
From: void at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:42:53 -0500
Subject: preemptive search based on chat talk
Message-ID: <3A6334DF.6502D50D@mindspring.com>


``The severity of the threat was such that it required a preemptive
search. It's just not
             worth allowing something like this to happen where there is
probable cause to
             believe it will. I say there was probable cause because a
federal search warrant was
             signed regarding this matter,'' McLaughlin said.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010114/wr/crime_dc_4.html





From whazzup101 at mail777.net.cn  Fri Jan 19 15:44:28 2001
From: whazzup101 at mail777.net.cn (whazzup101 at mail777.net.cn)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:44:28 -0500
Subject: lose weight
Message-ID: <y4ja5v1lfr0.7rwc8i6jjd7y1u2c@klet.babit.com>



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From void at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 19 15:44:31 2001
From: void at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:44:31 -0500
Subject: new spy museum
Message-ID: <3A63477B.1E0B575A@mindspring.com>


Jan 15, 2001 - 12:48 PM

            Cleveland Company's Spy Museum
            to Unravel Secrets of Espionage
            World
            By Amy Beth Graves
            Associated Press Writer

            CLEVELAND (AP) - The secret is out: Some of James
            Bond's biggest fans were KGB agents.

            But the Soviets weren't interested in how the fictional
            British spy liked his martinis or seduced femme fatales.
            The KGB thought Bond's goofy weapons were real and
            tried to keep pace by working on new gadgets like a
            lipstick gun.

            That's just one secret of the cloak-and-dagger trade that
            a Cleveland company is revealing as it enters the
            hush-hush world of espionage by opening the
            International Spy Museum in Washington in February
            2002.

            The museum will cost $29 million and showcase
            thousands of years espionage and international trickery,
            dating back to the Trojan horse.

            "The real stories are more interesting than fiction," said
            Dennis Barrie, president of Malrite Co., which focuses
            on starting new museums.

            Barrie, a former Smithsonian curator, was at the center
            of a controversy in 1990 when the Contemporary Arts
            Center in Cincinnati opened an exhibit by photographer
            Robert Mapplethorpe that included homoerotic shots.
            Prosecutors brought obscenity charges against the
            center and Barrie, but a jury acquitted them.

            Malrite founder Milton Maltz, who was on a board of
            directors that helped bring the Rock and Roll Hall of
            Fame and Museum to Cleveland, came up with the idea
            for the for-profit spy museum.

            Maltz worked for the National Security Agency while in
            the Navy. While he described his intelligence work as
            "pretty mundane," Maltz said he has always been
            fascinated by the espionage world. The popularity of
            history-based TV shows and greater willingness by spy
            agencies to reveal secrets of the trade helped convince
            him that a museum would sell.

            Barrie anticipates the museum will draw 500,000
            visitors the first year.

            "The world is mesmerized by spying. We've had even
            more interest in the subject than we anticipated," Maltz
            said.

            Even the Central Intelligence Agency has nice things to
            say about the museum, though it cannot endorse
            commercial projects.

            "We think that it's a good idea to better inform the public
            on the true mission of the CIA and intelligence
            gathering. Most of what's out there is Hollywood's
            perception and what you read in novels. The vast
            majority is not true," agency spokesman Tom Crispell
            said. "I think it will give individuals a more realistic
            understanding of what the intelligence business is all
            about."

            Many ideas for the museum came from an advisory
            board of historians and former spies with the FBI, CIA
            and KGB. A couple of years ago, the ex-spies gathered
            to swap stories, Maltz said.

            "Sometimes they would say, 'Is it still classified?' One
            side would tell their story and the other side's story
            would be different," Maltz said. "It was fabulous because
            it was spy versus spy."

            Malrite has been collecting artifacts for the museum by
            buying items on the Internet and asking former agents
            for souvenirs from their careers.

            Some of the material will come from H. Keith Melton, a
            historian who has a 6,000-piece collection of spy
            material. About 500 of Melton's items are at the CIA's
            headquarters, which has a small museum for
            employees and invited guests.

            The new museum's prized possession is an Enigma
            machine used by the Nazis to encrypt top-secret
            messages.

            Among the other attractions will be a "spy school,"
            where visitors can learn how to bug a room, try on
            disguises and use spy cameras. Another exhibit will
            recreate the Berlin tunnel where agents eavesdropped
            on the Russians during the Cold War, while yet another
            will be a World War II codebreaking room where visitors
            will see the role espionage played in helping the D-Day
            invasion.

            While the museum will address the careers of real-life
            spies such as Mata Hari and Julia Child (she did
            intelligence work in Asia during World War II), there will
            also be a nod to Bond and his colleagues from the
            world of movies and TV. That's because the real world
            influenced the entertainment industry and vice versa.

            Barrie said the director of the CIA in the 1960s often
            watched TV's "Mission Impossible." He said that the
            day after the week's episode, the director would call
            those in charge of coming up with spying gadgets and
            tactics and ask, "Can we do that?"
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAK4J6H0IC.html





From kbxic at mail.yahoo.co.jp  Fri Jan 19 15:48:22 2001
From: kbxic at mail.yahoo.co.jp (kbxic at mail.yahoo.co.jp)
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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Jan 19 15:48:25 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:48:25 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net> <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <3A62FAB5.E3B25860@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A62FF52.F994036@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Ken Brown wrote:

> > Certainly
> > they aren't running Tandem stuff on planes and vehicles -- this is heavy
> > iron --
>
> They certainly used to run IBM 370 (a lot  heavier than Tandems both in
> mass & power consumption!) in the air, probably to manage AWACS tape
> filestore (I vaguely think they may even have used UCC1). That is unless
> the US  & German airforce people I sometimes met on operating system
> training courses back in the early 1980s  were *very* good at pulling
> the wool over fellow-student's eyes.

       Bizarre -- but then I suppose 20 years ago the 370 was fairly small
compared to other computers. At any rate, I was thinking in today's terms,
and one would hope our glorious leaders would have a bit more on the
technical ball than to think they needed to drag mainframes around in planes,
eh? But then, probably they don't. So maybe John's "nonstop" is referring to
some weird intel op use of Tandems. Who knows?
      Come to think, my computer operator for the Tandem spent 20 years in
the AirForce, and he seems to think the Tandem is hot stuff. Of course, he
can't even set up his own PC, but what would you expect?  8-).







From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan 19 15:48:25 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:48:25 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net> <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3A62FAB5.E3B25860@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
 
> John Young wrote:
> > We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
> > the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text
> > below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on
> > what NONSTOP means. Joel McNamara has been searching
> > for NONSTOP info for some time:
> >
> 
>     I happen to admin a Tandem "NonStop" K-200

[...snip...]

>     So the bottom line here is this -- I'd really rather doubt that the
> NONSTOP referred to above has anything to do with Tandems. 

Agreed that John's "non-stop" doesn't sound anything like Tandem boxes
(which surely wouldn't be a secret code-wood anyway?)

> Certainly
> they aren't running Tandem stuff on planes and vehicles -- this is heavy
> iron --

They certainly used to run IBM 370 (a lot  heavier than Tandems both in
mass & power consumption!) in the air, probably to manage AWACS tape
filestore (I vaguely think they may even have used UCC1). That is unless
the US  & German airforce people I sometimes met on operating system
training courses back in the early 1980s  were *very* good at pulling
the wool over fellow-student's eyes.

Ken Brown





From wntmq at 371.net  Fri Jan 19 15:49:44 2001
From: wntmq at 371.net (wntmq at 371.net)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:49:44 -0500
Subject: Great Shirt                         14247
Message-ID: <000016a31878$00006b70$000037a7@371.net>


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From nonpoiiiiiiiiii at libertysurf.se  Fri Jan 19 15:50:19 2001
From: nonpoiiiiiiiiii at libertysurf.se (B-son)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:50:19 -0500
Subject: Earn 200 to 300 a day behind your computer!
Message-ID: <200101150241.UAA05882@einstein.ssz.com>


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From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Fri Jan 19 15:50:57 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:50:57 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: Lucky Green's message of "Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:42:44 -0500"
References: <NDBBIFGOKODBCKDGJDKLKEMPFDAA.shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <m2n1ctj0pz.fsf@squack.com>


Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:

> GSM phones do indeed broadcast their International Mobile Equipment Number
> (IMEI). The IMIE is hardcoded into the firmware of each phone. Changing the
> IMIE is possible, but not from the UI. Recently, the manufacturers have
> announced that they will make it even more difficult to alter IMEI's in the
> future.

The IMEI is displayed by *#06# on GSM phones and isn't broadcast.

GSM phones broadcast a temporary version of the IMEI called TMSI
(Temporary Mobile Subscriber Identity) rather than the IMEI directly
for privacy reasons (!)  The Nokia phones with Net Monitor mode will
display the current TMSI.

See for example,

GSM Security and Encryption

http://www3.l0pht.com/~oblivion/blkcrwl/cell/gsm/gsm-secur/gsm-secur.html

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and i'm
not sure about the former. --albert einstein





From bgep_feedback at boston.com  Fri Jan 19 15:50:59 2001
From: bgep_feedback at boston.com (bgep_feedback at boston.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:50:59 -0500
Subject: Email to Boston.com/Boston Globe
Message-ID: <200101141803.NAA25770@border-ai.invlogic.com>



Thank you for taking the time to send us your message. If your e-mail requires a response it is our goal to respond within 48 business hours. All messages, positive or negative, are read and reviewed very carefully.

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From bf at farc.org  Fri Jan 19 15:51:30 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:51:30 -0500
Subject: Police arrest teen for obscene Web site
Message-ID: <3A61E713.86019070@farc.org>


Police arrest teen for obscene Web site

            By Associated Press, 01/13/01
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/13/obscene.htm

            SALEM, N.H. -- Salem police have arrested a teen
            they say created several obscene Web sites that
            mocked the Salem Police Department.

            Christopher Hemmah, 19, was arrested Thursday
            night after a month-long investigation. He is charged
            with misuse of computer system information, a
            felony.

            In Hemmah's home, police say they found seven
            computers and how-to books on computer hacking.

            One of the obscene Web sites took information from
            the Salem Police Benevolent Association site and
            parodied it by changing words and downloading
            pictures from the site, police said. A second site
            mentioned the department and had random
            pornographic pictures attached to it, they said.

Behind the curtain:

Registrant:
        Brian Peddle (SALEMPOLICE-DOM)
           PO BOX 80131
           Stoneham, MA 02180
           US

Domain Name: SALEMPOLICE.ORG

           Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
              Peddle, Brian  (BP8222)  bpeddle at MASSCREATIONS.COM
              Mass Creations
              PO BOX 80131
              Stoneham , MA 02180
              781-279-2841

The project was
     coordinated by Officer
     Ron Peddle
http://www.salempolice.org/About%20The%20Salem%20Police%20Benevolent.htm





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Jan 19 16:09:13 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:09:13 -0500
Subject: Safety issue:  7.62 NATO == .308 Win   NOT!!!
References: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <4.3.2.7.2.20010115055249.00c73ee0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3A68D716.464E8D81@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


     Duh! Reese, you better learn to read. In the first place, the ammo
was clearly German 7.62 NATO military surplus, not commercial .308
Winchester ammo. Secondly, as a handloader who has done some wild
experiments with many calibres, rifle, pistol, and shotgun, over at least
35 years, there just ain't no way that a little headspace problem causes
anything like that -- in fact, I've had a number of rifles with excess
headspace and all that happens, even with hot loads, is you blow off the
back of the case. I've had literally hundreds of case head separations --
they don't blow up the gun.
     In fact, there is almost nothing that could do that sort of damage
except someone loading the shell with semtex or the like. And the article
also makes that *very* clear. They theorize that possible that shell got
loaded with .30 carbine powder which is a fast burning pistol powder, but
I really doubt that would explain it either. Bullseye powder, possibly,
but it had to be a deliberate thing. And it seems to me that I recall
somewhere someone writing about that sort of sabotage being done at
various times to make soldiers afraid to fire their weapons.



Reese wrote:

> Another quibble.  This is a safety issue, so READ it.
>
> One of our members wrote:
>
>  >It was introduced in 7.62 mm NATO, very, very close to .308
>  >Winchester. (Some say there are headspace differences, though I have
>  >used 7.62 mm NATO in my Remington 700 VSSF, ostensibly chambered for
>  >.308 Winchester, and I have used .308 Winchester in my Federal Arms
>  >FA-91/G3, ostensibly chambered for 7.62 mm NATO.
>
> Here's a 7.62 NATO gun that blew up with .308 Win ammo not long ago:
> http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html
>
> These two cartridges are NOT the same, more here:
> http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
>
> Reese





From kenny_maekit at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 19 11:36:38 2001
From: kenny_maekit at hotmail.com (Warren Piece)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:36:38 -0000
Subject: REAL assassination politics
Message-ID: <F43TpYmQz4lDPHpNwqe00001244@hotmail.com>


of course, there is a cynical side of me which says...hey, let 'em legalize 
it.  i mean, come on...do you really think the law against assassinations 
has ever stopped them?  did you know that gullible is not even in the 
dictionary?  at least if they legalize it we won't have to listen to the 
news and KNOW that a patsy was shamelessly used by those in power.  we won't 
have to sit by and watch the government execute "justice" on those who have 
been used.

_________________________________________________________________
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From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Fri Jan 19 16:43:56 2001
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:43:56 -0500
Subject: USA Saab supports anti hunting group
Message-ID: <200101200047.f0K0lZO05702@ak47.algebra.com>


==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:44:33 +1030
>From: SSAA <Sporting.Shooters.Association at adelaide.on.net>
>Subject: NEWS - USA Saab supports anti hunting group
>To: ssaa-news at adelaide.on.net

>From the NRA

ANOTHER ANTI-HUNTING "SAAB"-STORY

In 1999, we reported that Saab Cars USA had entered into a relationship
with the largest anti-hunting extremist organization in America the
Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). Two years ago, Saab was
promoting an HSUS anti-fur campaign, and the latest issue of Saab
Magazine indicates the relationship is still strong, as it includes an
ad promoting HSUS. But does Saab also support anti-gun extremism? In the
same issue of the magazine is a story about Carl Frederick Reuterswdrd,
the Swedish artist who designed Saab's new symbol. Reuterswdrd is
probably best known for his sculpture of a revolver with its barrel tied
into a knot (a photo of the artist with this sculpture is included in
the magazine), a sculpture that
is displayed in front of the UN headquarters. If you wish to contact
Saab to express your objection to its working with anti-hunting
extremists (especially if you are a hunter who owns a Saab), please
write:

Saab Cars USA
Attn. Daniel Chasins, Pres. and COO
4405-A International Blvd.
Norcross, GA 30093
Phone: 800-955-9007/770-279-0100
Fax: 770-279-6499
e-mail: custserv at saabusa.com (mailto:custserv at saabusa.com)
website: www.saabusa.com (http://www.saabusa.com)


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jan 19 17:02:48 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:02:48 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3A62FAB5.E3B25860@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <200101200111.UAA01419@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


This, from David Wagner on Cryptography, is most informative:

In a paper on side channel cryptanalysis by John Kelsey, Bruce Schneier,
Chris Hall, and I, we speculated on possible meanings of NONSTOP and HIJACK:

   [...]
   It is our belief that most operational cryptanalysis makes use of
   side-channel information.  [...]  And Peter Wright discussed data
   leaking onto a transmission line as a side channel used to break a
   French cryptographic device [Wri87].

   The (unclassified) military literature provides many examples of
   real-world side channels.  [...]  Peter Wright's crosstalk anecdote
   is probably what the HIJACK codeword refers to [USAF98]. Along
   similar lines, [USAF98] alludes to the possibility that crosstalk from
   sensitive hardware near a tape player might modulate the signal on the
   tape; [USAF98] recommends that tapes played in a classified facility be
   degaussed before they are removed, presumably to prevent side channels
   from leaking. Finally, one last example from the military literature
   is the NONSTOP attack [USAF98, Chapters 3-4]: after a careful reading
   of unclassified sources, we believe this refers to the side channel
   that results when cryptographic hardware is illuminated by a nearby
   radio transmitter (e.g. a cellphone), thereby modulating the return
   signal with information about what the crypto gear is doing [AK98].
   [...]

   [AK98] R. Anderson and M. Kuhn, "Soft Tempest: Hidden Data Transmission
          Using Electromagnetic Emanations," Proc. 2nd Workshop on
          Information Hiding, Springer, 1998.
   [USAF98] US Air Force, Air Force Systems Security Memorandum 7011--
          Emission Security Countermeasures Review, 1 May 1998.
   [Wri87] P. Wright, Spycatcher, Viking Penguin Inc., 1987.
   
The above is excerpted from the conclusions of
   J. Kelsey, B. Schneier, D. Wagner, C. Hall,
   "Side channel cryptanalysis of product ciphers",
   Journal of Computer Security, vol. 8, pp. 141--158, 2000.
   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/papers/sidechan-final.ps

Do remember, please, that these are just guesses.

Also, credit is due to Ross Anderson and Markus Kuhn for informative
discussions on this topic.

[End Wagner post]

--- 

Both the Anderson/Kuhn and USAF papers are online:

  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest.pdf

  http://www.jya.com/afssm-7011.htm





From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 19 23:19:03 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:19:03 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119211322.00cbade0@flex.com>


At 11:54 PM 1/19/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 >> Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
 >> snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?
 >
 >Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.

oh geez.  Why was it necessary to bring in tanks, special forces and
gunships for overflights?  Why, when if all they wanted was koresh,
all they had to do was wait for him to go to town again, and snatch
him off the street as he walked down the sidewalk?

Who benefited from this "necessary" show of how forcefully Reno et al.
could burn wooden buildings with people inside them?  Yeah-yeah, the
evidence is contested, re: who started the fires.  What isn't contested
is the armored vehicles poking gun muzzles through the walls.

Reese




From incomeopp4uathome at netzero.com  Fri Jan 19 21:24:52 2001
From: incomeopp4uathome at netzero.com (Income Opportunity)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:24:52 -0800
Subject: Turn Your Spare Time At Home Into Money - Home Workers Needed
Message-ID: <200101200556.VAA09986@toad.com>


Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly

Home Workers Needed Nationwide

Hundreds of companies are currently looking for
telecommuters.  There is no experience needed and
you can start right away.

This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program.
In fact, none of the companies require any special
fees to get started.  Many offer free training.

Start earning money in your spare time.  You set the
hours, you decide how much you want to make.

Email startpoint at earthlink.net with "Work At Home"
in the subject heading for complete details.

Best Wishes
Home Workers Directory

P.S.  Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over
the age of 18. 





From incomeopp4uathome at netzero.com  Fri Jan 19 21:24:57 2001
From: incomeopp4uathome at netzero.com (Income Opportunity)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:24:57 -0800
Subject: Turn Your Spare Time At Home Into Money - Home Workers Needed
Message-ID: <200101200559.VAA14602@cyberpass.net>


Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly

Home Workers Needed Nationwide

Hundreds of companies are currently looking for
telecommuters.  There is no experience needed and
you can start right away.

This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program.
In fact, none of the companies require any special
fees to get started.  Many offer free training.

Start earning money in your spare time.  You set the
hours, you decide how much you want to make.

Email startpoint at earthlink.net with "Work At Home"
in the subject heading for complete details.

Best Wishes
Home Workers Directory

P.S.  Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over
the age of 18. 





From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 19 23:30:51 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:30:51 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192252560.1001-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119224743.5612M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119212934.00c7daf0@flex.com>


One thing: who asked you?

At 10:56 PM 1/19/01 -0600, Mac Norton wrote:
 >Coupla things:
 >
 >a. What the hell has this got to do with John Ashcroft?
 >
 >b. Doncha think that reaction's a little strong to an
 >   offhand comment?
 >
 >c. Alright, three things: You've never said "NO!" to a pet?
 >
 >MacN
 >
 >On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >>
 >> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >>
 >> > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time. We do it to our pets
 >> > when teaching them a lesson. Why should cops be any different?
 >>
 >> You fucking self-centerd ego-maniacal animal abuser. You NEVER have to use
 >> fear with pets. If you have to use fear it is your failing, not the pets.
 >> Do the animal a favor get rid of the pet, you're not fit for it.
 >>
 >> I hope the next time you use fear on your pets somebody comes along and
 >> teaches you the lesson, a 2x4 up your ass seems suitable.
 >>
 >> Do your kids a favor, don't have any.
 >>
 >>     ____________________________________________________________________
 >>
 >>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
 >>            smaller group must first understand it.
 >>
 >>                                            "Stranger Suns"
 >>                                            George Zebrowski
 >>
 >>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
 >>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
 >>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
 >>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
 >>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
 >>
 >> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 19 20:50:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:50:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119224743.5612M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Heck, employers do it to employees all the time. We do it to our pets
> when teaching them a lesson. Why should cops be any different?

You fucking self-centerd ego-maniacal animal abuser. You NEVER have to use
fear with pets. If you have to use fear it is your failing, not the pets.
Do the animal a favor get rid of the pet, you're not fit for it.

I hope the next time you use fear on your pets somebody comes along and
teaches you the lesson, a 2x4 up your ass seems suitable.

Do your kids a favor, don't have any.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Fri Jan 19 20:56:50 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:56:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119224743.5612M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192252560.1001-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


Coupla things:

a. What the hell has this got to do with John Ashcroft?

b. Doncha think that reaction's a little strong to an
   offhand comment?

c. Alright, three things: You've never said "NO!" to a pet?

MacN

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time. We do it to our pets
> > when teaching them a lesson. Why should cops be any different?
> 
> You fucking self-centerd ego-maniacal animal abuser. You NEVER have to use
> fear with pets. If you have to use fear it is your failing, not the pets.
> Do the animal a favor get rid of the pet, you're not fit for it.
> 
> I hope the next time you use fear on your pets somebody comes along and
> teaches you the lesson, a 2x4 up your ass seems suitable.
> 
> Do your kids a favor, don't have any.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 19 21:10:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:10:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192252560.1001-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119230549.5612N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Mac Norton wrote:

> Coupla things:
> 
> a. What the hell has this got to do with John Ashcroft?

A thesis was made and an example to support it was offered. The example is
flawed (not to mention demonstrating a massive lack of emotional
maturity on the part of the author/animal abuser).

> b. Doncha think that reaction's a little strong to an
>    offhand comment?

Abusing animals is NEVER offhanded.
 
> c. Alright, three things: You've never said "NO!" to a pet?

Animals don't fear 'no', they fear what you'll do to them. And you don't
have to use it to teach them what it means either. How do you teach an
animal 'fear'? One way and one way only, abuse.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 19 21:13:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:13:30 -0600
Subject: Scientific American: By the Numbers: The Rich and Other Americans: February 2001
Message-ID: <3A691E7A.D49CF2D6@ssz.com>

So much for America being the tax boogie man...

http://www.sciam.com/2001/0201issue/0201numbers.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Fri Jan 19 21:33:37 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:33:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119230549.5612N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192324290.1702-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


Well, I think animals fear the tone in your voice when you
say "NO!" as contrasted with the usual tone in your voice.
That shouldn't be accompanied by a beating, but a smart
two-fingered tap on the muzzle during housebreaking, 
followed by promptly putting the pup outside or on the 
newspaper, is not abuse in my book.  Is it in yours?

Of course it's pretty well proven that reward works
better--as it does on humans--for more sophisticated
training but, again as with humans, it takes some
discipline to instill basic behaviors.
MacN 

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Mac Norton wrote:
> 
> > Coupla things:
> > 
> > a. What the hell has this got to do with John Ashcroft?
> 
> A thesis was made and an example to support it was offered. The example is
> flawed (not to mention demonstrating a massive lack of emotional
> maturity on the part of the author/animal abuser).
> 
> > b. Doncha think that reaction's a little strong to an
> >    offhand comment?
> 
> Abusing animals is NEVER offhanded.
>  
> > c. Alright, three things: You've never said "NO!" to a pet?
> 
> Animals don't fear 'no', they fear what you'll do to them. And you don't
> have to use it to teach them what it means either. How do you teach an
> animal 'fear'? One way and one way only, abuse.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 19 20:54:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:54:15 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com> <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com> <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
> snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?

Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.

Heck, employers do it to employees all the time. We do it to our pets
when teaching them a lesson. Why should cops be any different?

> And _you_ think _I've_ bought into a statist line.

Um, sure.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 19 20:55:41 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:55:41 -0500
Subject: John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <3A688FDC.DB7AE628@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:14:46PM -0600
References: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]> <20010119001825.E30501@cluebot.com> <3A688FDC.DB7AE628@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20010119235541.B10897@cluebot.com>


I agree with the below. But it is mistaken to treat civil asset
forfeiture as an issue marked by broad bipartisan condemnation.
Quite the opposite is true; hence, we still have it.

-Declan

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:14:46PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> 1. Cops and Robbers:  Exposis Find Ashcroft Encouraged
>    Constitutional Violations in Missouri Asset Forfeiture Cases,
>    Police Agencies Kept Funds Intended for Schools
>    http://www.drcnet.org/wol/169.html#copsrobbers
> 
> An article by investigative journalist Dan Forbes, released
> yesterday evening by the Progressive Review
> (http://www.prorev.org), has confirmed something that drug war
> observers had strongly suspected:  John Ashcroft, as Missouri
> Governor, agreed to "look the other why" while state police




From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 19 20:56:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:56:31 -0500
Subject: What are you all about???
In-Reply-To: <3A6876F7.CC183C5C@syringa.net>; from billybob@syringa.net on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:18:47AM -0800
References: <3A6876F7.CC183C5C@syringa.net>
Message-ID: <20010119235631.C10897@cluebot.com>


Where's Tim's old .sig when we need it?

-Declan


On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:18:47AM -0800, William Weinmann wrote:
> 
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 19 21:19:32 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:19:32 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3A62FF52.F994036@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010400b68ece765048@[207.111.241.220]>


At 6:48 PM -0500 1/19/01, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Ken Brown wrote:
>
>>  > Certainly
>>  > they aren't running Tandem stuff on planes and vehicles -- this is heavy
>>  > iron --
>>
>>  They certainly used to run IBM 370 (a lot  heavier than Tandems both in
>>  mass & power consumption!) in the air, probably to manage AWACS tape
>>  filestore (I vaguely think they may even have used UCC1). That is unless
>>  the US  & German airforce people I sometimes met on operating system
>>  training courses back in the early 1980s  were *very* good at pulling
>>  the wool over fellow-student's eyes.
>
>        Bizarre -- but then I suppose 20 years ago the 370 was fairly small
>compared to other computers.

Twenty years ago was when the "3081"/Sierra version of the 370 
architecture was out. Not a small machine compared to others. The 
3081 had those fancy thermoconduction modules with plungers 
contacting the ceramics and all. Not small at all.

I have no idea which 370 was put on a plane, but I expect more than 
one generation rode on planes.

>At any rate, I was thinking in today's terms,
>and one would hope our glorious leaders would have a bit more on the
>technical ball than to think they needed to drag mainframes around in planes,

It's fairly "tired" to deprecate "glorious leaders" by claiming that 
dragging mainframes around in planes is ipso fact a dumb idea. 
Reasons are left for you to figure out.


>eh? But then, probably they don't. So maybe John's "nonstop" is referring to
>some weird intel op use of Tandems. Who knows?
>       Come to think, my computer operator for the Tandem spent 20 years in
>the AirForce, and he seems to think the Tandem is hot stuff. Of course, he
>can't even set up his own PC, but what would you expect?  8-).


More of the same deprecation.

I was the one here who tossed out the idea, in response to John 
Young's request, that maybe a classified TEMPEST document on 
"NONSTOP" had something to do with the Tandem NonStop line.

Clearly not, based on his later transcribings of the partially-elided 
FOIAed document.


--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Jan 19 22:47:59 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:47:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: BugTraq: EFS Win 2000 flaw (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0101200047300.21622-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:29:50 +0100
From: Rickard Berglind <Rickard.Berglind at EIKNES.SE>
To: BUGTRAQ at SECURITYFOCUS.COM
Subject: BugTraq: EFS Win 2000 flaw

I have found a major problem with the encrypted filesystem
( EFS ) in Windows 2000 which shows that encrypted files  
are still very available for a thief or attacker.


The problem comes from how EFS works when the encryption
is done. When a user marks a file for encryption a
backup-file, called efs0.tmp, will be created. When
the copy is in place the orginal file will be deleted
and then recreated, now encrypted, from the efs0.tmp-
file.
And finally, when the new encrypted file is succesfully
created, the temporary-file ( which will never be shown
in the user interface ) will be deleted as well.

So far, so good. The only file remaining is the one
which is encrypted.


But the flaw is this: the temporary-file is deleted
in the same way any other file is "deleted" - i.e.
the entry in the $mft is marked as empty and the clusters
where the file was stored will be marked in the $Bitmap
as available, but the psysical file and the information it
contains will NOT be deleted. The information in the
file which the user have encrypted will be left in the backup
file efs0.tmp in total plaintext on the surface of the disk.

When new files are added to the partition will they
gradually overwrite the secret information, but if
the encrypted file was large - the information could
be left for months.

So how can this be exploited ?  If someone steals
a laptop or have psysical access to the disk it will
be easy to use any low level disk editor to search
for the information. For example, the Microsoft
Support Tool "dskprobe.exe" works fine for locating
old efs0.tmp-files and read information, in plain-text,
that the user thought was safe.	

In my opinion there should be a function in the EFS
which physically overwrites the efs0.tmp at least once
to make it a lot harder for an attacker to gain control 
over secret information.



Here is a description how to test this :

Use any version of Windows 2000.
Install the Support Tools from the Win2000 CD.

For demonstrating purposes - create a new partition with
the size of 7 MB.
Choose to format with NTFS.
Create a new small file ( easier to find ) with Notepad
and put some text in it. Save this file in the root of the
new partition.

Do not encrypt it yet.

Let us look at the file through DiskProbe before encryption-
start Diskprobe from Support Tools on the Start Menu.

A. Choose the "Drives"-menu and "Physical Drive" 
   Double click on "physical drive 0" ( or other drive you are using )
   Click "Set active" and then "OK"

B. Choose "Drives" again and this time "Logical Volume"
   Double click the drive letter for your new partition
   and then "Set active" and "OK"

C. Choose the "Sectors"-menu and "Read". For starting number
   type 80 and for the number - 35 perpaps.


Maximize the window and click the arrow for "Next sector".

At sector 86 you should see the name and contents of your
file ( assuming you made a new partition )

The file is obiously in plain text and easy to read for anyone
with physical access to this disk, regardless of permissions
in the ACL, which is ignored when using this kind of utiliy.
Better encrypt this file .. !


Now close the DiskProbe utility and open Explorer and locate
your new file. Choose Properties - Advanced - Encrypted - OK.
The file is now encrypted.

Wait a few moments to be sure the new data has been written
to the disk. 
Open Diskprobe again and repeat steps A, B and C.

When reaching sector 86 you should be able to see the name
of your file, but not be able to read the information - it
is now encrypted. 

But.. continue to click the Next Sector-Arrow and look carefully
at the information being displayed. A few sectors away from the
orginal file there should be a file called efs0.tmp - which is
the backup file EFS creats during encryption. You should ALSO
be able to see the contents of this efs0.tmp file - which will
be the data from the file you encrypted. The problem is just that
the data is in clear and plain text.
So again - anyone with physical access to this disk can read
the data you thought was safe.


/ Rickard Berglind




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 19 22:59:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:59:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192324290.1702-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119234321.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



[ WARNING: Use of 3rd person referentials. Not necessarily meant as a
           personal indicative.]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Mac Norton wrote:

> Well, I think animals fear the tone in your voice when you
> say "NO!" as contrasted with the usual tone in your voice.

That's not fear, that's respect of the pecking order (I assume you
speak of dogs since most other animals couldn't give a fuck less about
your tone of voice unless you're yelling). Fear is an entirely different
matter from respect.

More people should understand this distinction. Hell, most people
shouldn't even have pets.

> That shouldn't be accompanied by a beating, but a smart
> two-fingered tap on the muzzle during housebreaking, 
> followed by promptly putting the pup outside or on the 
> newspaper, is not abuse in my book.  Is it in yours?

Don't know about abuse but it's crappy training technique (and I say that 
from raising dogs for 37 years). Also, abuse is about more than simply
striking them. It includes negligence as well. It means not doing what you
should be doing.

No, you shouldn't be tapping them on the nose or otherwise physically
striking them. If you wait around until the animal has to take a crap in
the floor then YOU have failed in the training. The goal is to teach the
animal to ask to go out. That means YOU have to learn the animals schedule
and use it to teach them the expected behaviour. That means YOU have to
follow the feeding schedule and time the animals bowl rate. It means  YOU
have to set the alarm clock to take the animal out (or on the paper, and
sit there till IT's done not until your patience runs out) BEFORE they
can't hold their bladder any longer (which is after all the true goal
we're after here at least). That means it's YOUR responsibility to take
them out regularly every 2-3 hours or so (and that means at nite when
you'd rather be sleeping too) when they're puppies. Basically it means YOU
have to get off your ass and quite asking the animal to do it for you. It
means when the animal come at 4am and asks to go out you get your lazy
butt out of bed and take them outside. Basically YOU need to be doing this
before you ever give the puppy to the new owner (which shouldn't happen
prior to 8 weeks anyway). YOU need to teach the new owner and if they show
ANY hesitency then don't give them the animal, they'll only abuse it.

Dogs are genetically wired for this training. When young pups prior to eye
opening use the bathroom the mother eats the crap and piss (hence pottie
training a dog prior to ~8 weeks is a waste of time for all concerned).
As they age she pays attention to their feeding cycle and physically takes
them out of the den when she knows it's pottie time. They connect 'go
outside den' with 'my bladder is uncomfortable'. When you first get your
pup expect piss and shit everywhere for the first week. Take the dog out
every two hours irrespective of badder/bowel movement. And don't react to
the bowel/bladder movement at all with respect to 'punishing' (what a
fucking power mad concept) the dog. Just clean it up. After that they'll
start putting 2 and 2 together on their own. It usually take from between
3 and 6 weeks for them to figure it out and be reliable [there are
exception, I have a wolf hybrid it took 6 months - wolves don't pottie
train well at all. I was prepared for it to never learn. Really it
doesn't care, another difference many miss. I have a domestic dog now who
doesn't care for fences or gates. I have to keep her behind a 6ft fence on
3/4 in aircraft cable] and I was prepared to keep cleaning it up and to
take it out every two hours irrespective. It has to do with a slightly
different territory sense between wolves and domesticated dogs.).

Sticking their nose in piss, yelling at them because they couldn't hold
their bladder (think of how you feel after a six hour car drive and no
rest stop) or whacking them with a rolled up newspaper (I dare you to
strike a wolf hybrid) ain't the way any more than sitting around on your
ass drinking beer and watching TV until the animal shits in the floor and
then you yell at it and drag it around pointing at newspaper (like a puppy
has any clue what paper is) is the way or it's supposed to read your mind.
(After all, if you're so smart how come you didn't recognize the pup was
in distress in the first place?)

Now this should not be interpreted to mean that no physical contact is
required. For example the best way to teach dogs not to rush the door is
to pin them in it. If a dog pushes you and you don't want then push it
away hard enough to put it on the ground (similar to a 'alpha roll', and
if you don't know what a 'alpha roll' is or how to use it you know nothing
about training dogs). If you teach them 'back up' and they don't you alpha
roll them on their back.

As to demanding respect from dogs, you don't do it with your voice. You do
it with your eyes (another sign of inexperience is this common mistake,
even a lot of 'professionals' make it). In addition you shouldn't play
'tug of war' with it and you should NEVER let a puppy/dog get on top of a
child or person, EVER!!!!!

There are some monks who raise German Shephards, they write some excellent
books. Anyone raising any sort of canine should read at least one of them.

With cats the usual failure is insufficient handling in the first 4 weeks
after birth (raised tradition, applehead, Siamese for nearly 20 years). If
this isn't done the animal will never be settled. In the case of cats that
don't receive any human contact in that first 4 weeks, they'll never be
domesticated. And yelling 'NO' at a cat is a fruiteless exercise in ego.
And Ferrets are a whole other ball of wax entirely. Yell at a cow or a
sheep and you're just as likely to be sitting on your ass with a broken
hip. Yell at or strike a horse and it'll shy from you till the day you
die.

(And despite what a lot of 'trainers', really people who want to be well
know in the competitive ring, might say; never keep your dog crated.)

Bottem line, if an animal fails in its behavior it rests on one set of
shoulders and one set of shoulders only, the owner. It is NEVER the
animals fault.

Raising a pet isn't about what you the owner want, it's about what the
animal needs. It's about 'caring' not 'ownership' (which is one reason
among many PETA is a bunch of fucked up assholes). And anyone who buys a
pet after watching a movie, for a holiday present, or because they think
it would be 'cool' needs to review this point in a serious fashion.

Anyway, good luck with your pet. Over and out.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Sat Jan 20 01:06:43 2001
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:06:43 -0800
Subject: John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010119001825.E30501@cluebot.com>
References: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]>; from freematt@coil.com on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:55:10AM -0500
Message-ID: <3A68E4A2.10085.286A3F@localhost>


Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote

> But I wonder who really believes Ashcroft is being absolutely genuine
> in his responses to Feinstein?

In the last election in Texas when G.W. Bush was running for 
governor he was accused by his opponent of only using the 
governvorship of Texas as a base to run for the presidency of the 
US.  He promised to serve a full term.

If the boss doesn't live up to promises why should the troops??


Virtually


Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca
"The Physical Layer Experts" 
http://www.fbn.bc.ca/cable1.html




From forgot at lga2.nytimes.com  Sat Jan 20 00:08:52 2001
From: forgot at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:08:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NYT Account Request
Message-ID: <200101200808.DAA22604@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com>


You have requested your ID and password for The New York Times on the Web.
Please follow the instructions below.  If you have any questions or problems,
write to forgot at nytimes.com.  Please DO NOT REPLY to this message.

1.  Please make a note of your subscriber ID:

cypherpunks0101

2.  Next, to change the password for this account, using your Web browser go
to this unique URL:

http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=41558416_18208013

This page will allow you to choose a new password.  Make sure you have
copied the address EXACTLY as it appears here.  (If you're getting an
"Error" page, the address was probably entered incorrectly.  See "Help With
Copying and Pasting" at the bottom of this e-mail.)

3.  Follow the instructions on the screen to choose a new password.  After
you have entered a password you will automatically enter our Web site.


The New York Times on the Web
Customer Service
forgot at nytimes.com

********************

Help With Copying and Pasting

1.  Using the mouse, highlight the entire Web address, (e.g.
    http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=41558416_18208013)
    shown above in step 2.  It's essential to highlight the 
    entire address, even if it extends over two lines.
2.  Under the Edit menu at the top of your screen, select "Copy".
3.  Go into your Web browser (open it if it's not already opened).
4.  Click in the "Netsite" or "Address" bar -- the place in your 
    Web browser where it says what Web address you're currently 
    looking at -- and delete the address that's currently there.
5.  In the blank "Netsite" or "Address" bar, paste the address by 
    selecting the "Edit" menu at the top of your screen and 
    choosing "Paste".
6.  Press Enter.
7.  Follow the instructions to choose a new password.

********************

If you did not request your ID and password for your NYT Web registration,
someone has mistakenly entered your e-mail address when requesting their
password. Please simply ignore this message, or, if you wish, you may go to
the address above to select a new password for your account.




From cab8 at censored.org  Sat Jan 20 00:49:48 2001
From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol Braddock)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:49:48 -0500
Subject: ThePW
Message-ID: <LOBBLFPFEHKIMANNHFCFEEELDFAA.cab8@censored.org>


Your Subscriber ID is : cypherpunks0101.
Your Password is : cypherpunks.




From FRIEND at CUSTOMERS.MIT.EDU  Sat Jan 20 05:16:29 2001
From: FRIEND at CUSTOMERS.MIT.EDU (FRIEND at CUSTOMERS.MIT.EDU)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 05:16:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dear Friend -SBNL
Message-ID: <200101201316.FAA20189@toad.com>



Dear Friend:

As seen on National TV!!

"Make over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home
for an investment of only $25 U. S. expense one time"
THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!!

_________________________________________________________________

              E-WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!!

_________________________________________________________________
Before you say "Bull", please read the following.


                      "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V."

Thank you for your time and Interest.

This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately.

Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news
program recently
devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below,
to see if it really
can make people money.
The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.Their
findings proved once
and for all that there are, absolutely no Laws prohibiting the participation
in the program. This
has helped to Show people that this is a simple, harmless
and fun way
to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly
remarkable. So
many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better
than ever before.
Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, it's been
very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you
experience it.

                           "HERE IT IS BELOW"
_________________________________________________________________

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at. It can be
started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 90 days!

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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not
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This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY
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MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It
is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and the Wall
Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
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This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 Millionaires in
the WORLD, 20% (
700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover,
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over 100 people become millionaires everyday through
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You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A
MULTI-
BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on
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would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without
hesitating, Trump
said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The
audience started
to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and
deadpanned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all
sitting out there!"

With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct Commissions
from sales you
make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the
business.
Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means
investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In
network
marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others.

This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries
across the world.
The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately,
sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it.

My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for
the past twelve
years downsized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job
interviews, I decided
to open my own business. Over the past year, I
incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and
creditors over
$35,000.
The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet. I
had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and
struggling business.

AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER
FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to
receiving this program I
had been sending away for INF0RMATION on various business opportunities. All
of the
programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost
effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the
initial investment was too
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.
One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell
me I'd have to write a
book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this
program. I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to
make sure I
was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY
MAKING
PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start,
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further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I
would at least get my money
back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little
worried about the legal aspects
of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office
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Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time
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all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is
my time. I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-
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In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
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ORDERS FOR
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SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
My first step in making $46,000 in 90 days was done.
By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to
"RECEIVE AT
LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU
HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $46,000
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By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $58,000 with more coming
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Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
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Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you
must follow it
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100+ orders for
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If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a
great opportunity with
little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program
and you will be on your
way to financial security. If you are a fellow business
owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own
business, consider
this a sign.
I DID!
Sincerely,
Johnathon Rourke

         A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THISPROGRAM:

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have
concluded that
an amateur could, not have created such a program, and one that is legal.
Let me tell you a
little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years.
Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that
were previously
successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It
wasn't me, it was the
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economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because
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The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
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I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor
anyone else who has
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DOLLARS! I
have retired from the program after sending out over
1,600,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make this and several
other programs
here and over seas.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It
works
exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting
report to everyone you
can think of. One of the people you send this to may
send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on every one of them!
Remember though,
the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my
friend, I have given
you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!  "THINK
ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and
REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when
YOU
participate. Figure out the worst possible response and
no matter how you
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get
back what you invested.
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA.
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS
OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that
you could
use up to $46,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say, "BULL... ",
please read this
program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a
perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do:
As with all multi-level
businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our
products. Because
of the
global nature of the Internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level
business partners from all
over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS
COME BY
MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are
not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home,
store or office. This is the
GREATEST
Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you
don't order them).
a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE
ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of
a problem) to the person whose name
appears on the list next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL
PROBLEMS!
b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports.
You will need all
five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.
c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports.
Save them on your
computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them
from you.
2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or
their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in
steps "a" through "g" or
you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once
you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if
you change it.
Remember this method  has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not
work.
a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE
the name and
address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no
doubt
counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company,
the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the  top of this document to
your own.

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you
copy every
name and address ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save
it to your computer.
Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to
participate in this is
practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously
already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with
marketing your
business on the internet, the 5 Reports you purchase will provide you with
invaluable marketing
INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-
mails, where to find thousands of Free classified ads and much, much more.
In addition you will
be provided with INFORMATION on Internet

Marketing Clubs such as INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES(IMR): This is
one the Premiere Internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET. This club
provides a forum
where Internet marketers from all over the world can exchange ideas and
secrets on Internet
Marketing. In addition, members of this club are provided
free Internet
marketing tools and services for the Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketer. They
will provide you with
free bulk e-mail software and up to 1,000,000 fresh e-mail addresses each
week. This club will
provide you with hundreds of free resources which
include: How to obtain
free web sites, how to obtain top rankings in search engines for your
web-site, how to send
bulk e-mail into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on news
groups, free
classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads
and much more.
There are two primary methods of building your downline:
METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all
those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receives
a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be
much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of
programs instead of
2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.
With a 0.3%
response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out
of those 0.3%,
36 people respond and order
REPORT #2. Those 36 mails out 2,000 programs each for a total of  72,000.
The 0.3%
response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000
programs each for a
432,000 total. The 0.3%response to that is 1,296 orders
for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000
total. The 0.3%
response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for
you, CASH!!! Your
total income in this example is $30 + $180 +
$1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of  $46,650!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE
YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE
TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT
OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD
OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost
to participate in this
is practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection
and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods
for bulk emailing,
tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain
e-mail lists and show you
how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free.
METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS
of FREE
places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start  small just to see how
well it works. Assume
your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your
first level. (Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone
else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downlink members. Follow this example
to
achieve the STAGGERING results below.
1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x  6)........................$30
2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180
3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080
4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480
5th level--6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880
.................................................$46,650
_________________________________________________________________

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit
6 people each.
Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20  people to participate!
Many people will
get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!  For every
$5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered.
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!
This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and
address on it, will be
prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report!
_________________________________________________________________

AVAILABLE REPORTS
*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***
Notes:  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT
ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is
concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of paper.
On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the
report you are ordering,
(b) your e-mail address, and  (c)your name & postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
E. Bludworth
1982 St. Rd. 44 #113
New Smyrna Beach, Fl. 32168

REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
ZT Corp.
13237 Montfort, Ste. 301
Dallas, Tx, 75240

REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Gary Goldman
6476 Bellevue Dr.
Conyers, Ga. 30094

REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of
Multilevel Marketing and the Internet"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Richard R. Civil
1800 Laurel Rd., Apt. #1603
Lindenwold, NJ 08021

REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE"
ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:
Shawn Thomas
2013 Huntingdon Chase
Atlanta, Ga. 30350

There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide!
******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow
the directions accurately.

* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when
the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report.

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the
instructions exactly, your results
WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,continue
advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should
receive at least 100
orders for REPORT#2. If you don't,  continue advertising or
sending e-mails
until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
Continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in
front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want
to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue
placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit
to the income you will generate from this business!

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate
in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE
YOUR LIFE?
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program:
1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO
PRODUCE!

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP!

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT, WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO
ADVERTISE!
4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE
WORLD!
5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS
YOUR TIME!
6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE
PROFIT!
7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER.

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially
the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work and you'll lose a lot
of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great
opportunity to make
relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do
choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way
to financial
security.

Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a  cost
accountant with a
major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the
program I
grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the
whole thing,
spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew"
it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.
I made merciless
fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so"
on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two
weeks she had
received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in
$5 bills! I was
shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did
have seven more
years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me.
We owe it all to MLM.

Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely
profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I
was approached
several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see
what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.
To my astonishment,
I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours,
Pam Hedland Halmstad, Sweden

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this
plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was
so little that there was
just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at
least get my money back. I surprised when I  found my medium-size post
office box crammed
with orders! For a while, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking
up my mail at the
window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of
my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter
where people live. There
simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I
shouldn't have given it
a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had
to wait until I was
e-mailed another program,.11 months passed then it
came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first
try!!

Mohamed, Cairo, Egypt

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL
FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN.

DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS!!!!





From michael1 at emailchoice.com  Sat Jan 20 06:34:10 2001
From: michael1 at emailchoice.com (michael1 at emailchoice.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 06:34:10
Subject: Traders on the Floor
Message-ID: <267.861235.809018@unknown>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Jan 20 08:32:14 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:32:14 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 > > Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
 > > snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?

At 11:54 PM 1/19/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 > Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.
 >
 > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time.

I cannot recall any employer ever calling security to stick guns in my face.


     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      iCxkx21+FVbibGkdmGLg+GOp5FnkCEqa5WWtRYLx
      4gWZz2su4zhtKT0NT8JNfB8Wd7KuZUGecno53JZfh




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Jan 20 08:38:53 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:38:53 -0800
Subject: John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010119235541.B10897@cluebot.com>
References: <3A688FDC.DB7AE628@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
 <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]>
 <20010119001825.E30501@cluebot.com>
 <3A688FDC.DB7AE628@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083238.023a7a38@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 11:55 PM 1/19/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 > I agree with the below. But it is mistaken to treat civil asset
 > forfeiture as an issue marked by broad bipartisan condemnation.
 > Quite the opposite is true; hence, we still have it.

The capacity of police and bureaucrats to rob and kill does not depend on 
approval by judges and legislators.  Rather, the capability of judges and 
legislators to remain alive frequently depends on the good will of police 
and bureaucrats.

The legislature is in the same situation as a lion tamer.  If the lion 
tamer's whip should by some accident actually hit one of the lions, he 
would very likely be devoured.

I would argue that the the police did not start confiscating drugs because 
the legislature criminalized possession.  Rather, the legislature 
criminalized possession because drugs were small lightweight high value 
objects that were commonly in the possession of businessmen with little 
influence, and were thus frequently confiscated, much as the liontamer 
incorporates the spontaneous propensities of lions into his act, to make it 
appear they are doing things at his command.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      Inht5xskswIPxL9at9+l43p8TzImO2r00/ohsfH2
      4AXEsOjneNq4Ef6yHyR2BsqkfJa/0wsEFc10UTIct




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 20 06:43:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:43:21 -0600
Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Researchers Develop Liquid Form Of DNA
Message-ID: <3A69A409.6FCC9F9B@ssz.com>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010118064934.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Sat Jan 20 06:00:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:00:25 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119211322.00cbade0@flex.com>
References: <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>


Reno probably didn't expect the situation to, um, blow up in her face.

It is also undisputed that if they wanted to avoid a show of force, they 
could have nabbed Koresh during his jogs around the property line or 
whatnot in the morning. Reese, you blather too much.

-Declan


At 09:19 PM 1/19/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
>At 11:54 PM 1/19/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> >> Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
> >> snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?
> >
> >Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.
>
>oh geez.  Why was it necessary to bring in tanks, special forces and
>gunships for overflights?  Why, when if all they wanted was koresh,
>all they had to do was wait for him to go to town again, and snatch
>him off the street as he walked down the sidewalk?
>
>Who benefited from this "necessary" show of how forcefully Reno et al.
>could burn wooden buildings with people inside them?  Yeah-yeah, the
>evidence is contested, re: who started the fires.  What isn't contested
>is the armored vehicles poking gun muzzles through the walls.
>
>Reese
>




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Jan 20 09:02:41 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:02:41 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>
References: <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b68f72c6eb36@[207.111.241.171]>


At 9:00 AM -0500 1/20/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Reno probably didn't expect the situation to, um, blow up in her face.
>
>It is also undisputed that if they wanted to avoid a show of force, 
>they could have nabbed Koresh during his jogs around the property 
>line or whatnot in the morning. Reese, you blather too much.
>

I also believe that neither Waco nor Ruby Ridge were expected to go 
down as they did. Neither Reno nor Clinton gained anything from these 
debacles.

What I fault is the general trend toward "militarizing the police," 
especially the trend toward using federal police instead of local 
sheriffs and law enforcement. In both cases, Waco and Ruby Ridge, 
local law enforcement was bypassed, even "kept out of the loop." This 
should not be acceptable in a constitutional republic consisting of 
states.

There are also fundamental problems with the War on Some Weapons, the 
War on Some Drugs, and the War on Some Religions. Claims that Randy 
Weaver had sawed an inch or so off a shotgun, part of an entrapment 
by Feds who wanted his cooperation in other matters, tell us how 
close we are coming to being a police state (though we are not yet 
there in any plausible sense). Claims that David Koresh was mingling 
in unapproved ways with young women, or was selling weapons illegally 
(never proved, even after the ashes had been sifted), should have 
been handled locally, not by calling in federal ninjas.

As for Ashcroft, we'll see. Bush won, so Bush gets to appoint his 
staff. The whole "review by the Senate" thing is a relic of the 
McCarthy era, actually, and should be done away with.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 20 07:08:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:08:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.521 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120090833.5612u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:54:57 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.521

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 521  January 18, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, James
Riordon, and Ben Stein                         
            
AT LAST! LIGHT BROUGHT TO A HALT.  For the first time,
physicists in two separate laboratories have effectively brought a
light pulse to a stop.  In the process, physicists have accomplished
another first: the non-destructive and reversible conversion of the
information carried by light into a coherent atomic form. Sending a
light pulse into specially prepared rubidium (Rb) vapor, a group at
the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics led by Ron
Walsworth (617-495-7274) and Mikhail Lukin (617-496-7611) has
(1) slowed the pulse's "group velocity" to zero and (2) stored its
information in the form of an atomic "spin wave," a collective
excitation in the Rb atoms.  (A spin wave can be visualized as a
collective pattern in the orientation of the atoms, which spin like
tops and hence act like tiny bar magnets. "Spin" is merely the name
for the tiny magnetic vector in each of the atoms.)  The atomic spin
wave is coherent and long-lived, which enables the researchers to
store the light pulse's information and then convert it back into a
light pulse with the same properties as the original pulse.  This new
accomplishment in a simple system increases the promise for
quantum communication, which may someday be used to connect
potentially ultrafast quantum computers in a large network
analogous to the Internet.
   Usually photons (the quanta of light) are absorbed by atoms,
destroying the information carried by the light.  With the present
method, in principle, no information in the light pulse is lost. 
Previous efforts to slow light (such as Hau et al., Nature, 18
February 1999) have reduced the signal speed to about 1 mph
(Update 472) by using a process called electromagnetically
induced transparency (EIT; see Updates 37, 344 and Stephen
Harris's article in Physics Today, July 1997). Walsworth, Lukin
and colleagues have gone the rest of the way to a zero light-pulse
speed by using a novel technique which was recently proposed
theoretically (Lukin, Yelin and Fleischhauer, Phys. Rev. Lett. 1
May 2000; Fleischhauer and Lukin, Phys. Rev. Lett. 29 May
2000).
    The light storage experiment begins with the Harvard-
Smithsonian scientists shining a "control" laser beam into a glass
cell filled with rubidium vapor (about 70-90 degrees Celsius),
which puts the atoms into a conventional EIT state in which they
cannot absorb light in the traditional sense.  The scientists then
send in a "signal" pulse of light which contains the information
they want to store.  As the pulse enters the rubidium cell its
propagation speed is reduced to about 2,000 mph.  Since the front
edge of the signal pulse enters the cell (and hence is decelerated)
first, the pulse experiences dramatic spatial compression: from
several kilometers in free-space to a few centimeters inside the
rubidium vapor.  The light in the vapor cell interacts with the
atoms (see figure at http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics),
changing the atoms' spin states coherently and creating a joint
atom-photon system known as a polariton.  (For a nice descriptions
of polaritons see Phys Rev Focus, 26 April 2000:
http://focus.aps.org/v5/st19.html)
    The light-atom interaction causes the polaritons to act as if they
have an effective mass; so one way to understand the signal pulse's
reduced speed is that the mixture with atoms, in the form of a
polariton, effectively weighs down the otherwise massless photons.
Next, the Harvard-Smithsonian scientists stop the signal pulse of
light by gradually turning off the control beam, which causes more
atoms to be mixed with fewer photons, thereby increasing the
polariton mass and further reducing the signal pulse's speed.  When
the control beam is completely off the polariton is purely atomic,
the light pulse is effectively halted, and no signal pulse emerges
from the glass cell during the storage period.
    At this point there are no photons remaining in the cell.  The
light does not go into warming of the atoms, as is the usual case.  
Instead the photons are expended in the creation of the atomic spin
wave.  Thus, the information that the light pulse carried (all that
one can know about the photons) is stored in the atomic spin wave,
waiting to be released as a light pulse that is in principle identical
to the incident pulse. 
   An alternative way to understand the slowing of light is to think
of the signal pulse as a wave made of many different components,
each with a different frequency.  The Rb atoms bend or "refract"
the individual components of the light by different amounts
depending on each component's frequency.  The vapor cell's
frequency-dependent index of refraction causes the component
waves to add together in such a way that the group velocity, the
velocity of the composite pulse, slows appreciably.  The dimming
of the control beam makes the vapor's index of refraction more
sharply dependent on frequency, and this serves to reduce the
group velocity further.  The dimming causes the atoms to become
transparent to a narrower range of frequencies.  But
simultaneously, the light wave (or more precisely, the combination
of light wave and atomic spin wave) is continually slowing down,
maintaining its shape but narrowing its range of component
frequencies so that the atoms are still unable to absorb it.  After a
relatively long delay the control beam can be turned back on,
reverting the polariton to being a light wave by coaxing the atoms
to emit the exact signal light pulse that entered the medium.
    In brief: (1) the length of a light pulse is compressed from
kilometers to centimeters in a properly-prepared rubidium vapor;
(2) the information carried by the light pulse is then imprinted
upon the ensemble of rubidium atoms in the form of long-lived
spin waves; and (3) the light pulse can later be read out on demand. 
This new light storage method is robust because information is
maintained in collective atomic spin states, which are much less
sensitive to dissipation, losses, and quantum-computer-crashing
decoherence effects than are excited electronic states in atoms.
   Scientists believe that the light storage method is quite general
and that the simplicity of its implementation is a big advantage. 
They even speculate that the technique may be utilized in certain
solid-state materials.  The Harvard-Smithsonian demonstration
experiment is exciting news for scientists worried about preserving
the coherence of quantum information transfer.  With further work,
this technique should allow for the storage and transmission of
photon quantum states useful for quantum communication and
computation.  (Phillips et al., Physical Review Letters, 29 January
2001.)
    Walsworth and Lukin say that a very similar result has been
recently obtained by  Lene Hau's group (Harvard/Rowland Institute
of Science) in an ultra-cold atomic gas.  In addition, an upcoming
theory paper (Kocharavskaya et al., Phys Rev. Lett., 22 January)
discusses a novel technique for making a light beam not only stop
in its tracks but reverse its direction; this effect could be useful for
non-linear optics applications. 




From soft5000 at flashmail.com  Sat Jan 20 09:56:13 2001
From: soft5000 at flashmail.com (soft5000 at flashmail.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:56:13
Subject: Traders Make it Happen
Message-ID: <31.788822.616979@unknown>

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From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan 20 12:52:32 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:52:32 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119211322.00cbade0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120104952.00cc6300@flex.com>


At 09:00 AM 1/20/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >Reno probably didn't expect the situation to, um, blow up in her face.
 >
 >It is also undisputed that if they wanted to avoid a show of force, they
 >could have nabbed Koresh during his jogs around the property line or
 >whatnot in the morning.

I said something to that effect, yesterday.  Missed it, did'ja?

 > Reese, you blather too much.

Blather?  As opposed to what you do?  I think it's preferable.

Reese




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Sat Jan 20 09:42:21 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:42:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b68f72c6eb36@[207.111.241.171]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101201138580.29491-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:
> 
> As for Ashcroft, we'll see. Bush won, so Bush gets to appoint his 
> staff. The whole "review by the Senate" thing is a relic of the 
> McCarthy era, actually, and should be done away with.

Advice and consent of the Senate as to federal officers has been in the
Constitution from the outset, and the only time an appointee to an 
incoming President's cabinet was rejected was John Tower, long after
the McCarthy era. 
MacN




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 20 09:52:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:52:55 -0600
Subject: Heise News-Ticker: Windows aus zweiter Hand bei Waibel (In German, about selling old Win licenses to 3rd parties)
Message-ID: <3A69D077.693D1BF@ssz.com>


There's a link over on /. where they direct you to translation services.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/ps-19.01.01-000/
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From abs at squig.org  Sat Jan 20 12:40:06 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:40:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119224743.5612M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101201233530.2381-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time. We do it to our pets
> > when teaching them a lesson. Why should cops be any different?
> 
> You fucking self-centerd ego-maniacal animal abuser. You NEVER have to use
> fear with pets. If you have to use fear it is your failing, not the pets.
> Do the animal a favor get rid of the pet, you're not fit for it.

I think this is a bit overly broad. (Declan's statement was in reference
to "a show of force" which is what I think you are onjecting to here. With
that, I totally agree.) One should never use violence to instill fear; in
fact, instilling fear in an animal is simply a bad idea.

But, with higher intelligence animals such as dogs, you may find it
unavoidable. I've come home to find my dog slinking around the house,
avoiding eye-contact with me, and generally looking scared and
guilty. (Then I discover my slippers gnawed on or the trash turned over.)

I've never struck her. I rarely yell at her. She is, however, afraid of
making me mad.

It's all in how you want to structure your training of the animal. The
positive reinforcement approach requires more patience and time initially,
but the results are much better than if you use punishment.

Alex




From abs at squig.org  Sat Jan 20 13:00:11 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119234321.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101201240590.2381-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> your tone of voice unless you're yelling). Fear is an entirely different
> matter from respect.

As in my previous message, it depends on how you're defining fear in this
application. Can a dog not fear disappointing its owner?
 
> More people should understand this distinction. Hell, most people
> shouldn't even have pets.

With that, I agree.
 
> Don't know about abuse but it's crappy training technique (and I say that 
> from raising dogs for 37 years). Also, abuse is about more than simply
> striking them. It includes negligence as well. It means not doing what you
> should be doing.

I was always told that the only form of physical admonishment one should
ever employ with a dog is a swift jerk at the scruff of the neck
(apparently imitating mother/puppy behavior). I don't particularly see
this being useful, however. The urge to react physically to undesirable
behavior is a failing in the human trainer. (Likewise, when your child
accidently steps on your dog's tail, you want the dog to yelp rather than
bite.)

[snip accurate description of the ordeal of housebreaking dogs]

One method that has worked for me, in addition to everything you've said,
is the repetition of a phrase while waiting for the dog to do his
business. I've spent many a night standing in my back yard saying
"hurry-up" in the sweetest voice imaginable to my puppies, and then
telling them how much of a good dog they are when they pee. Makes the
neighbors think I am batty, but they eventually equate "hurry-up" with
"take a leak", and I can get them to urinate on command.
 
> then you yell at it and drag it around pointing at newspaper (like a puppy
> has any clue what paper is) is the way or it's supposed to read your mind.
> (After all, if you're so smart how come you didn't recognize the pup was
> in distress in the first place?)

"If you point at a dog, he'll look at your finger..."
 
> Now this should not be interpreted to mean that no physical contact is
> required. For example the best way to teach dogs not to rush the door is
> to pin them in it. If a dog pushes you and you don't want then push it
> away hard enough to put it on the ground (similar to a 'alpha roll', and
> if you don't know what a 'alpha roll' is or how to use it you know nothing
> about training dogs). If you teach them 'back up' and they don't you alpha
> roll them on their back.

Jim, most people on here won't know what an alpha roll is.
 
> As to demanding respect from dogs, you don't do it with your voice. You do
> it with your eyes (another sign of inexperience is this common mistake,
> even a lot of 'professionals' make it). In addition you shouldn't play
> 'tug of war' with it and you should NEVER let a puppy/dog get on top of a
> child or person, EVER!!!!!

By extension, if you're ever in a situation where you fear you may be
attacked by a dog, avert your eyes. A staring contest with a strange
dog may end up with bloodshed.
 
> There are some monks who raise German Shephards, they write some excellent
> books. Anyone raising any sort of canine should read at least one of them.

The Monks of New Skete.
 
> Bottom line, if an animal fails in its behavior it rests on one set of
> shoulders and one set of shoulders only, the owner. It is NEVER the
> animals fault.

Absolutely.


Alex




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 20 12:01:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:01:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <F88pgTFur2iz2Mb1s7n00001064@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Foobulus Baracades wrote:
 
> I would like to read worthwhile books in the cypherpunk genre! I have a few 
> questions:
> 
> Can you distinguish a "cypherpunk" genre from a "cyberpunk" genre, and is it 
> a worthwhile distinction, and what are the features ?

Yes, it is worthwhile. Good luck finding anything that is remotely
acceptable.

> What are the worthwhile books to read to learn about cryptography in the 
> future, and the culture of people "into" cryptography ("cryptoheads"!) ?

Start with 'Applied Cryptography'. There are some other books listed at,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#reading

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net  Sat Jan 20 11:36:34 2001
From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:36:34 -0500
Subject: Anti-Carnivore FUD or Brave New Internet?
Message-ID: <20010120192942.17673.qmail@nym.alias.net>


http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000713.html

    JULY 13, 2000

     Meet Eater
            The FBI's Plan for Digital Wiretaps Raises More Questions Than It 
            Answers

            By Robert X. Cringely


            There is this moment toward the otherwise forgettable end of "Star 
            Trek V: The Final Frontier" when this alien creature patterned after 
            the Wizard of Oz has even Spock convinced that it is God with a 
            capital "G." They are just about to fire-up the Enterprise and take 
            "God" back to Earth when Kirk -- probably hoping to avoid the 
            military protocol involved with having a deity on the bridge -- asks 
            a pivotal question: Why would God need a starship? Couldn't God just 
            blink and instantly be in Times Square looking up at the NASDAQ 
            sign, wondering why they cut windows into a video screen? 

            This scene of the skeptical Kirk flashed in my mind this week as I 
            read about Carnivore, the FBI's system for reading the e-mail of bad 
            guys. Carnivore is a sealed box that is installed at the network 
            operations center of an Internet Service Provider. It filters 
            packets, finds e-mail going to and from identified criminals, and 
            saves that e-mail for later decryption and analysis. What bothers 
            the Internet Service Providers is they have no control over the 
            Carnivore box, and no way of protecting the privacy of all the 
            customers who aren't drug lords or escaped felons. What bothers the 
            American Civil Liberties Union is the likelihood that individuals 
            will not only lose their right to privacy, but lose it in a new and 
            insidious way. 

            What bothers me is the damned box. Why would the FBI need a box? 
            Here's all the FBI will say about Carnivore. It sits on the network 
            at the ISP, is PC-based, is "a kind of a sniffer," identifies and 
            saves packets associated with suspected criminals, is installed 
            under a court order, and doesn't itself act as a decryption device. 
            There are supposed to be around 20 Carnivore boxes, and they have 
            been in use since early this year. You don't need a sealed box to do 
            any of these tasks, most of which are already being done for 
            completely legal reasons right inside the router at every ISP. 
            Routers look at every packet, determine what type of packet it is, 
            where it is coming from and where it is going to, then the router 
            delivers the packet to its intended destination. This is what 
            routers do. Adding the Carnivore task is a simple matter of blind 
            copying every packet to or from a bad guy to a third address at the 
            J. Edgar Hoover FBI Building in Washington, DC. It's at most a few 
            lines of code and requires no additional hardware. 

            So why the box? 

            The probable reason is because cops like to be in control. They LIKE 
            boxes, like delivering them in unmarked cars, like the satisfying 
            click of the RJ-45 connector as it slides home. Maybe they don't 
            know that it could all be done without a box. Heck, it IS being done 
            without a box all the time, and that's where the ACLU is missing the 
            point. Sniffers have been running on networks ever since Harry Saal 
            invented the device. Every packet at every ISP already goes through 
            a sniffer at least part of the time. An ISP could do at any time 
            what we fear the FBI might do with Carnivore read the e-mail and 
            follow the surfing habits of every pretty blonde customer. Good 
            ISPs, which is to say nearly all ISPs don't do this, of course, but 
            it happens. 

            So why doesn't the FBI just get a court order making the ISP do the 
            dirty work? That's what the ISPs wonder, too, especially since 
            that's how phone taps are handled. Cops don't really climb poles and 
            attach alligator clips to hear phone calls. That's all done at the 
            central office by telephone company technicians. 

            The FBI, through the use of Carnivore, is trying to grab a little 
            more power. And by doing it themselves with Carnivore, the FBI 
            doesn't have to reveal the identity of the bad guy or extent to 
            which it is using the box. Yeah, right. 

            But wait, it gets worse. There are aspects of this case that the 
            ACLU hasn't even considered. The Carnivore boxes are what's called 
            "co-located" at the ISP. This isn't a rare thing. Many organizations 
            like to control their own Web or mail servers and so co-locate them 
            at an ISP. Colocation puts your server closer to the Internet 
            backbone, eliminates typical T-1 line costs, allows the ISP to 
            monitor and reboot the server, and usually comes with nifty things 
            like redundant backbone connections and diesel generators in case 
            the power goes out. Companies in the co-location business include 
            well-known names like AT&T, IBM, and Intel. So there are tens of 
            thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of computers already 
            installed just like the FBI installs its Carnivore boxes. What keeps 
            those co-located computers from being sniffers, too? Nothing at all. 
            For $300 per month, you too could install your own Carnivore box at 
            the ISP of your choice. Co-location facilities don't really care 
            what you do with your co-located server as long as you keep paying 
            the bill. 

            More technically astute readers may take exception to this idea of 
            private Carnivore boxes since there are ways to isolate ISP traffic 
            and keep one box from seeing all the packets on the ISP network. But 
            at most ISPs, THOSE TECHNIQUES AREN'T USED. 

            This still leaves us wondering why the FBI insists on this program 
            that isn't really necessary to do what they say they want to do. 
            Beyond my overzealous cop theory, the most obvious possibility is 
            that Carnivore is actually intended to do something else, some 
            different task than the FBI is saying. Privacy advocates and the 
            ACLU seem fixated on the idea that the Feds will use Carnivore to 
            eavesdrop on non-criminals. It makes sense to worry about this, 
            given past FBI anti-privacy campaigns like the Clipper Chip fiasco 
            of several years ago that was supposed to have made it possible for 
            the FBI to tap up to 10 million simultaneous telephone 
            conversations, even though there are only an average of 1500 
            court-ordered phone taps each year in the U.S. 

            But I have my own theory about Carnivore. From a network 
            architecture standpoint, the best location for Carnivore is right 
            after the ISP's router. This puts Carnivore in the path of every 
            packet entering or leaving the ISP. It's also a major reason why 
            ISPs might not want to install Carnivore boxes -- it's the network's 
            point of greatest vulnerability. In this position, Carnivore can act 
            as a listening and recording device, OR IT CAN ACT AS A SWITCH. If 
            we ever hear a proposal from the FBI in which it plans to install 
            Carnivores at all 6000 ISPs in the U.S., we'll be giving the 
            government the power to do something it can't do right now. 

            Shut the Internet down. 



"We've got a Carnivore^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h ChildSavor box, we're using 
the case as a radio antenna, and we know that's not allowed!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May               | Shit Disturbing: Anarchy in the streets, 
Brain's Moral Compass        | digital money-laundering, zero-knowledge 
W.A.S.T.E.D - Proud Author of| gun purchases, collapse of Federal buildings
many prompt checks to the IRS| "Nuts like me give Orrin Hatch wet dreams"

"When the Revolution comes, they'll start working their way through Tim's Killfiles."






From foobar_2001 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 20 11:47:05 2001
From: foobar_2001 at hotmail.com (Foobulus Baracades)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:47:05 -0500
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
Message-ID: <F88pgTFur2iz2Mb1s7n00001064@hotmail.com>



I would like to read worthwhile books in the cypherpunk genre! I have a few 
questions:

Can you distinguish a "cypherpunk" genre from a "cyberpunk" genre, and is it 
a worthwhile distinction, and what are the features ?
What are the worthwhile books to read to learn about cryptography in the 
future, and the culture of people "into" cryptography ("cryptoheads"!) ?

Foobulus Barraculus

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From foobar_2001 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 20 12:26:54 2001
From: foobar_2001 at hotmail.com (Foobulus Baracculus)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:26:54 -0500
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
Message-ID: <F2438xKLVXfEFzotSkr00004c8e@hotmail.com>



>>Can you distinguish a "cypherpunk" genre from a "cyberpunk" genre, and is 
>>it a worthwhile distinction, and what are the features ?
>
>Yes, it is worthwhile. Good luck finding anything that is remotely 
>acceptable.

Perhaps I can offer a starting point:

First tier (works that are specifically focused on cryptographic 
technologies):

(1) - books on future worlds and spaces: in particular, those that explore 
social, moral, political, technical, ethical issues (to be science fiction), 
or those that merely explore worlds (to be fantasy)
(2) - books on cryptography theory and systems: from the basic theory 
(cryptography primitives), to the high level systems (public key 
infrastructure).
(3) - books on privacy, ethics and social questions: defining good and bad 
cryptography in the various contexts (low level technical, high level 
social), including politics (trade barriers).

Second tier (works that are more general and not specifically focused on 
cryptographic technologies):

- second tier to (1) - general science fiction and fantasy exploration of 
future worlds involving technology or otherwise, but not primarily focused 
on cryptography (technical, social or ethnographical)
- second tier to (2) - general mathematics, communications and computing, 
such as number theory, quantum computing, dna computing, internetworking 
systems, identity management.
- second tier to (3) - general computing and technology issues of privacy, 
ethics, sociology, ethology.

What I would enjoy reading:
- books on cryptoterrorism and cryptoliberation, where a major part of the 
plot revolves around the use of cryptography technologies in terrorism or 
liberation.
- books on cryptocommunities, where a major part of the plot revolves around 
people that are "cryptoheads" and for which cryptography and technology is a 
major part of their lifestyle (people who somewhat live, breathe and eat 
cryptography).


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sat Jan 20 13:37:15 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:37:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <F2438xKLVXfEFzotSkr00004c8e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101201540230.5190-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Foobulus Baracculus wrote:

> What I would enjoy reading:
> - books on cryptoterrorism and cryptoliberation, where a major part of the 
> plot revolves around the use of cryptography technologies in terrorism or 
> liberation.

Why? No, really - do we really need a book in which the majority of the
time is devoted to a minute analysis of how the Evil Terrorist screws up
his web of trust? Can you imagine the prose that would result?

-- 

"Sign it," Shirley said. 

As he popped the diskette into the drive of his laptop, he began to
reflect on the magnitude of the responsibility he had just undertaken. 
How could he know that Shirley was not actually working for one of Them? 
As the key display came up on his screen, he scanned the list of
signatures. Alfonse, Mohammed, Mummar - he quickly checked his mental map
of the Organization's web of trust. His signature was all she needed
before the Great Leader would accept her key as valid!

His blood turned to ice in his veins. He had made a terrible, terrible
mistake. 

"What's wrong?" Shirley breathed down his neck, "get on with it!" 

"OK," he finally said. And hit return. 

The disk drive whirred. A few seconds, and it was done. He popped out the
diskette, handed it to Shirley, and began to think of good ways to die. 

--

Maybe this is all right for a few pages or so, but an entire book? even an
entire story? It's hard for me to see how to pull it off without the story
being eaten alive by the details. 

Look, don't get me wrong, for a long time I wanted "stories about
CRYPTOgraphy, man!" too. Even tried writing one or two, but they never
made it anywhere. Why? Because if the story is about the cryptography
instead of about a story...it's not likely to be much of a story.

(Remind me to tell you about this idea for a guy beta-testing the first
spex-ware who becomes involved in a plot to re-elect President Flockhart
by forcing a hung election and then predicting the resulting coin-toss in
mid-air using a supremely powerful computer sometime...)

The danger that constantly threatens with this kind of thing seems to be
that any story is pushed aside in favor of a discussion of "101 Amazing
Things You Can Do With Cryptography." Then why read that instead of
Applied Cryptography?

The other extreme, of course, is the hollywood route. No real
understanding of cryptography, beyond "black boxes that break codes."
Hopefully I don't have to explain why this is unsatisfactory. 

I don't know of anything explicitly focused on cryptography which manages
to strike the right balance. "True Names" is what we always talk about as
The Cypherpunk Novella - but if you look at it, there's remarkably little
cryptography or discussion of technology. Much more about pseudonyms and
the ability to project control across computer networks. _Cryptonomicon_
separates the story and the expository parts; a strategy which prevents
disaster, but has its own cost.

> - books on cryptocommunities, where a major part of the plot revolves around 
> people that are "cryptoheads" and for which cryptography and technology is a 
> major part of their lifestyle (people who somewhat live, breathe and eat 
> cryptography).

Stephenson's "Drummers" in _The Diamond Age_ and the CryptNet loosely
associated with them seem to almost fit this bill. Except that we never do
find out much about how they work, as far as I recall. 

Again, I'd be a bit wary of a story written by someone who set out to
"write about crypto-heads." The truth is likely to be a bit stranger than
fiction. At least until the two are a bit closer than they are now.

On the other hand, there are gems like St. Jude's story about the
cypherpunks from 1992 (recently reposted here) which sparkle with wit,
brilliance, and razor language. All my doubts carried away. 

At least until I realize that the story was written in 1992, and here we
are nine years later...

-David





From barryjohnson55 at themail.com  Sat Jan 20 17:08:03 2001
From: barryjohnson55 at themail.com (Barry Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:08:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: * [Returned Mail] -{Unknown}
Message-ID: <419.436911.83532894barryjohnson55@themail.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 20 16:17:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:17:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <F2438xKLVXfEFzotSkr00004c8e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120155227.5612L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Foobulus Baracculus wrote:

> Perhaps I can offer a starting point:
> 
> First tier (works that are specifically focused on cryptographic 
> technologies):
> 
> (1) - books on future worlds and spaces: in particular, those that explore 
> social, moral, political, technical, ethical issues (to be science fiction), 
> or those that merely explore worlds (to be fantasy)

I see the utility in fiction to tell us what is most likely not to happen.

> (2) - books on cryptography theory and systems: from the basic theory 
> (cryptography primitives), to the high level systems (public key 
> infrastructure).
>
> (3) - books on privacy, ethics and social questions: defining good and bad 
> cryptography in the various contexts (low level technical, high level 
> social), including politics (trade barriers).

'defining good and bad'? Not possible, there are no absolute standards by
which to judge. I also think it is important that there be specific
identification and discussion on issues which aren't ameniable to
'technical means'.

There was a problem posed on the list in it's early years. I don't
remember it exactly and I'm not motivated to search, but I'll try to do it
justice.

Assume for a moment that you are a peasant in some country, say N. Korea.
There's no food, little work, nearly non-existant medicine, no free
speech/press, no right to try at the individual level to try to change
things (the hallmark of any enlightened society I suspect). The US flies a
plane over and drops everyone some sort of PDA widget. Now, assume in
addition your child is sick and you believe she may die. How do you use
the device to save her life?

> Second tier (works that are more general and not specifically focused on 
> cryptographic technologies):
> 
> - second tier to (1) - general science fiction and fantasy exploration of 
> future worlds involving technology or otherwise, but not primarily focused 
> on cryptography (technical, social or ethnographical)
>
> - second tier to (2) - general mathematics, communications and computing, 
> such as number theory, quantum computing, dna computing, internetworking 
> systems, identity management.
>
> - second tier to (3) - general computing and technology issues of privacy, 
> ethics, sociology, ethology.
> 
> What I would enjoy reading:
>
> - books on cryptoterrorism and cryptoliberation, where a major part of the 
> plot revolves around the use of cryptography technologies in terrorism or 
> liberation.

Not a lot, some about viruses and such. There's not a lot of glammer in
it.

> - books on cryptocommunities, where a major part of the plot revolves around 
> people that are "cryptoheads" and for which cryptography and technology is a 
> major part of their lifestyle (people who somewhat live, breathe and eat 
> cryptography).

Ugh. The thought of a community that is so paranoid it exist through
ubiquitous crypto is a bit self-contradictory I think. Who would you trust
to make the technology? How would anyone have the time to make the horde
of technologies this sort of society requires? This aspect is one reason I
believe that the only way that the human race can survive is to get off
this mudball ASAP. To that end requires a ubiquitous technology of similar
scale and scope as that required for your hypothesis. I also believe that
this paranoia will eventually lead (rightly so I might add) society to
break into 'families' or 'arcologies'. You want have a job so much as
you'll be a member in a large family business. One of the major current
issues which I strongly believe is being completely overlooked is the
impact of the coming life extension/cloning technology will mean to
individual lifetimes. I contend that anyone is alive in 2020 will live to
be at least 150 years old. I'll further predict that within that 150 years
it will be further extended. The impact on human society of this will be
like nothing this species has faced before. It's at most 500 years away.

The society which comes out of this will also be like nothing that has
ever existed before. It will represent a true revolution in society.
Anarchist, Socialist, Democratist, Crypt-anarchist, whatever 'ist is your
favorite are all passe, dead as the Dodo. They just don't know it yet.

Technology will support the very first truely consensual society. I do
believe that 'privacy' will not exist as we understand it today. Economies
based on competition (ideal or real-world) will not exist either.
Economies of scale will swallow them up and spit out their bleached bones.
This means that in as little as a thousand years 'business' as we see them
today will cease to exist.

There is an alternative, inbreeding.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Sat Jan 20 15:53:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:53:00 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120104952.00cc6300@flex.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119211322.00cbade0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120185222.00a7d110@mail.well.com>


At 10:52 AM 1/20/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
> >It is also undisputed that if they wanted to avoid a show of force, they
> >could have nabbed Koresh during his jogs around the property line or
> >whatnot in the morning.
>
>I said something to that effect, yesterday.  Missed it, did'ja?

Pardon me if I don't pay terribly close attention to your deathless prose.

> > Reese, you blather too much.
>
>Blather?  As opposed to what you do?  I think it's preferable.

But I get paid by the word for mine, generally speaking.

-Declan




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jan 20 16:06:58 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:06:58 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120185222.00a7d110@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120104952.00cc6300@flex.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119211322.00cbade0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <200101210016.TAA11222@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


William Jennings McCullagh wrote:

>But I get paid by the word for mine, generally speaking.

Those are speaking words did you not say a few days ago,
now worth more than wired fool's nuggets. Who's your agent
for priceless yarp, and what's her cut? These questions are
aimed at learning how to peddle air, ragh, harrup, spittle to
the left, spittle to the right, pause, sip, shuffle notes, crack
a lame one, hunch your back, peer into the future, a thoughtful
wrinkle, lose your train, go blank, blink, cough, grind teeth,
stare at the blurred sheets, bowels rumble, pucker up,
gasp what was in that curry. A panicked recall: laptop left
in the loo, DeCSSed DVD XXX cropped to hit highspots.
Big ID blares: this belongs to Today's Speechifier, if found
dispose, do not, please, slashdot it.




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 00:10:02 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:10:02 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010120185222.00a7d110@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120104952.00cc6300@flex.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010120085942.00a6c3e0@mail.well.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119211322.00cbade0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120220750.00cd1ce0@flex.com>


At 06:53 PM 1/20/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:

 >Pardon me if I don't pay terribly close attention to your deathless prose.

It was in a post you replied to.  If you troubled yourself enough to reply,
one would think you were aware of what you were replying to.

 >But I get paid by the word for mine, generally speaking.

Know yourself, know your inner whore.

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 02:07:42 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:07:42 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010121042256.B24468@cluebot.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121000140.00ccfab0@flex.com>


At 04:22 AM 1/21/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 08:32:14AM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
 >>On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 >>>>Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
 >>>>snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?
 >>
 >>>Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.
 >>>
 >>>Heck, employers do it to employees all the time.
 >>
 >>I cannot recall any employer ever calling security to stick guns in my face.
 >
 >You're thinking too literally. Show of force: When an employer reminds
 >a slacker that having a job is not a right.

It wasn't a right for the what, 40,000 in flint michigan, either, was it?

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 02:21:10 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:21:10 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010121042044.A24468@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119234321.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192324290.1702-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119234321.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121001114.00cdb150@flex.com>


At 04:20 AM 1/21/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >Sparring with Choate is about as useful as beating oneself with a
 >rubber baton, just far less rewarding.

Strangely enough, I agree.  I thought he went to far.

 >I never said animals should be trained to fear an owner or any other
 >human; to say otherwise is simple Choatian exaggeration. But my "show
 >of force" point is perfectly reasonable, and I stand by it.

"Show of Force" is what one nation does for benefit of others.  Perhaps
you might recognize the phrase "sabre rattling".  "Great White Fleet"???
A religious wacko who might be taking liberties does not need a show of
force, he needs an expenses paid escort to a padded room.

Your "show of force" point is not reasonable, and you are a fool to stand
by it.

 >-Declan
 >PS: I don't have pets. I travel too much. I had a fish once.

Your loss.  You should settle down and get a cat.

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 02:27:20 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:27:20 -1000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <20010121042619.D24468@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <F88pgTFur2iz2Mb1s7n00001064@hotmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121002454.00cc7470@flex.com>


At 04:26 AM 1/21/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 02:01:23PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >> > Can you distinguish a "cypherpunk" genre from a "cyberpunk" genre, and
 >is it
 >> > a worthwhile distinction, and what are the features ?
 >>
 >> Yes, it is worthwhile. Good luck finding anything that is remotely
 >> acceptable.
 >
 >Quick tip: Anything that Choate recommends, avoid.
 >
 >You could search on politechbot.com for "cypherpunk," I presume. Or
 >wired.com.

Take anything Declan says with a grain of salt, too - he leaves the "CDR"
in the subject line.

Just do some searches on the two terms, and if you have two brain cells
to rub together, you'll figure it out in fairly short order.

Once you have a better idea what the difference between the two is, you'll
be in a better position to ask relevant questions.

Reese




From Results at TVEyes.com  Sat Jan 20 21:38:46 2001
From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:38:46 -0500
Subject: crypto
Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1012C17B6@maileyes.tveyes.com>


Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on WLS during Relic Hunter.

Sunday, Jan 21 2001 at 12:38 AM

......so  we still have to   go over avery ko and   derek lloyd i recognize
lloyd s   name for some reason and he s the only one   paris has got back to
me on so far kate    they can t   extract anything he s protected by a
crypto    secret classification what ......

For details, visit
http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2838175&Key=crypto

 
Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. 
For total control of your keywords, go to
http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp

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From George at Orwellian.Org  Sat Jan 20 22:38:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:38:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Reno rocks out
Message-ID: <200101210638.BAA11111@www6.aa.psiweb.com>


From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
#    
#    Twenty years ago was when the "3081"/Sierra version of the 370
#    architecture was out. Not a small machine compared to others.

Twenty years ago a 370/115 was a 16-bitter.


From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
#    
#    When I was standing on a sidewalk in front of the federal courthouse on
#    Pennsylvania Ave (of Monicagate and Microsoft trial fame), a deputy U.S.
#    Marshal told me I could not take a photo of the courthouse.

For the first time, the inauguration was designated a "National Security Event."

----

Heh. Reno showed up on SNL tonight, sketch "Reno's Dance Party."

She burst through a "brick" wall to confront Will Ferrel, who was
impersonating her in a blue dress.

You could tell she was itching to dance...she was a shakin'.




From declan at well.com  Sat Jan 20 23:11:42 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:11:42 -0500
Subject: Photos from George W. Bush inaugural protests, high security
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010121020823.00a6b410@mail.well.com>


So I covered President Bush's inauguration today, though from the streets 
instead of the bleachers. You can see the photos here:
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration-highlights.html
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration.html

On Thursday, I walked from the Capitol building to the White House via 
Pennsylvania Avenue and took some shots of the inaugural parade preparations:
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2001-bush-inauguration-setup-pa-ave.html

Note the high security and planned police checkpoints earlier in the week: 
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-5/pennsylvania-ave-setup-park.html 
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-5/pennsylvania-ave-setup-fbi.html

On Thursday, when I was standing on a sidewalk in front of the federal 
courthouse on Pennsylvania Ave (of Monicagate and Microsoft trial fame), a 
deputy U.S. Marshal told me I could not take a photo of the courthouse. It 
was a wide-angle shot of the front, and no people or security preparations 
appared to be visible. Here's him walking back to his van, which appears to 
have -- from another photo -- U.S. Government plate 60163:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-5/pennsylvania-ave-setup-cop.html

I covered the Microsoft trial in that courthouse, took photos of the 
exterior, and never had any problems from the marshals. Here's a photo I 
took from that same sidewalk last year when the atmosphere was much less 
tense:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/9/mike-pettit.html

Photos from even earlier in the week:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01636.html

I've allowed the Independent Media Center to run my photos from Saturday; 
you can see some highlights here:
http://www.dc.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=5389
http://www.dc.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=5394
http://www.dc.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=5391

Here's one of the Capitol building setup that Wired News ran, though they 
apparently compressed the JPG image too much with hardly optimal results:
http://www.wired.com/news/photo/0,1860,41317,00.html

-Declan




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Sat Jan 20 23:19:11 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:19:11 -0500
Subject: Fingerprints Replaces Lunch Money
Message-ID: <28bdeee0203d17f4ba4fdf07d597d96a@mixmaster.shinn.net>


Finger Food 
Q Students in Pennsylvania are giving the lunch lady the finger.

JJJJA new system which uses fingerprint scanners to let kids pay for school lunches is getting raves from students and school administrators, but is making privacy advocates nervous.

The scanners make stealable lunch money, lose-able swipe cards and the stigma of being known as the free-lunch kid things of the past, says Walter Curfman, superintendent of the Tussey Mountain School District in western Pennsylvania.

RYou always have your finger with you, unless you cut it off,S he said.

But Andrew Shen of the Electronic Privacy Information Center worries about how well the information will be protected from being spread around throughout the government.

ROnce you have a collection of fingerprints starting from such an early age, I can imagine this being used for other purposes in the futureS such as law enforcement, he said. 

Popular System

The system from Altoona, Penn.-based Food Service Solutions is currently being piloted in middle and high schools at Tussey Mountain and neighboring Penn Cambria School District in rural western Pennsylvania, and Lower Merion School District in suburban Philadelphia. So far, itUs unique to the Keystone state, FSS president Mitch Johns said.

It works on a debit account system Q parents put money in, and students order food. When the account runs low, a letter goes out to the parents. Parents can also restrict studentsU shopping Ra la carteS Q buying extra food not on the dayUs set menu. Students can also choose to buy items with cash.

So far, kids have taken to the new system, said Tussey Mountain cafeteria director Deb Stepisianos. Though the kids goof around a bit Q putting the wrong finger down and such Q so far only three sets of parents have opted out of the program, she said.

And as TusseyUs system was a beta test, theyUve had some trouble with the software, choking up lunch lines.

RWhen it works, itUs wonderful,S she said. 

Going Too Far?

The scanning system was developed in response to a federal regulation requiring that cafeterias hide whoUs getting free or reduced-price lunches, Curfman said.

But cafeterias that use swipe cards or PIN numbers and debit accounts fulfill the same requirement and are often cheaper to run, according to Dennis Waiter, national marketing director at ARAMARK, which operates cafeterias at 350 school districts across the nation.

FSSU system costs Tussey Mountain about $50,000 for its four schools plus $4,000-5,000 a year for maintenance, Curfman said. A swipe card system from SNAP Systems, the nationUs largest purveyor of such systems, would cost between $28,000-60,000 for a district that size, plus about $3,000-4,000 a year for maintenance, according to Gloria Calvo of SNAP. 

FSS wants to expand its fingerprint system for use in attendance taking and on school door locks, as the use of biometric scanners is spreading in U.S. schools. Eagen High School in St. Paul, Minn., for instance, has been using fingerprint scanners to check out books at the school library since last academic year.

Fingerprints have the stigma of criminality, privacy advocates said, and thereUs no guarantee the data wouldnUt get out to law enforcement authorities or other agencies later in the game.

RAt some point my bet is, somebodyUs parents are going to file some sort of a lawsuit,S said Anne Cavoukian, data privacy commissioner for the government of Ontario in Canada. RI think youUre going to have some litigation on your hands: Twhy are you treating our children like common criminals?US

StudentsU biometric data Q such as fingerprint records Q is considered a student record and falls under the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, a 1974 privacy law. In most cases, the law says parents have to give written permission every time a studentUs records are released to an organization other than the school system.

But there are exceptions to FERPA that are different for every school district in the nation. Usually, lawyers said, schools have to give up their records if a judge or a district attorney asks. Districts differ on whether private lawyers can also grab student records for use in lawsuits, and when the police can do it. 

No Clear Picture

Of course, thatUs if the police could even make use of the fingerprint scan data Q and whether they can is unclear.

FSS uses a fingerprint scanner from Groupe Sagem, a French company. The Sagem scanner doesnUt store images of fingerprints. Instead, it records a few dozen points on a fingerprint and turns the location of those points into a number. The way the system is currently configured, itUs more than 99 percent efficient for up to 3,000 kids, said Steve Ketcham, a programmer for Food Service Solutions.

You canUt recreate fingerprint images from the data in the system, but if law enforcement had a similar system, they could match up the numbers. And Ketcham said FSSU system is a Rstripped down version of the AFIS,S a fingerprint-recognition system used by law enforcement.

But Johns insists the numbers produced from the finger scanners canUt be used by any other system.

RI see no way for that process to be used by anybody else,S he said. 

Copyright ) 2001 ABC News Internet Ventures. 





From FRIEND at CUSTOMERS  Sun Jan 21 03:00:04 2001
From: FRIEND at CUSTOMERS (FRIEND at CUSTOMERS)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:00:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: DEAR FRIEND -YOWO
Message-ID: <200101211100.DAA18910@cyberpass.net>



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is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and the Wall
Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
services will be sold
through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.

This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 Millionaires in
the WORLD, 20% (
700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover,
statistics show that
over 100 people become millionaires everyday through
Multi-Level Marketing.

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A
MULTI-
BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on
the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he
would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without
hesitating, Trump
said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The
audience started
to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and
deadpanned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all
sitting out there!"

With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct Commissions
from sales you
make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the
business.
Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means
investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In
network
marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others.

This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries
across the world.
The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately,
sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it.

My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for
the past twelve
years downsized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job
interviews, I decided
to open my own business. Over the past year, I
incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and
creditors over
$35,000.
The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet. I
had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and
struggling business.

AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER
FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to
receiving this program I
had been sending away for INF0RMATION on various business opportunities. All
of the
programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost
effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the
initial investment was too
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.
One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell
me I'd have to write a
book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this
program. I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to
make sure I
was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY
MAKING
PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start,
without putting me
further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I
would at least get my money
back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little
worried about the legal aspects
of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office
(1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After
determining the
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time
on-line. The great thing
about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the
program, and because
all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is
my time. I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-
off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me.
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13, I had
received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20
ORDERS FOR
REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
My first step in making $46,000 in 90 days was done.
By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to
"RECEIVE AT
LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU
HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $46,000
GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat
back and
relaxed.
By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $58,000 with more coming
in every day. I
paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.
Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER!!!

Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you
must follow it
EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a
different place. It won't
work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this
program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders For REPORT #1, and
100+ orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make $46,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF
THAT IT
WORKS!!!
If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a
great opportunity with
little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program
and you will be on your
way to financial security. If you are a fellow business
owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own
business, consider
this a sign.
I DID!
Sincerely,
Johnathon Rourke

         A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THISPROGRAM:

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have
concluded that
an amateur could, not have created such a program, and one that is legal.
Let me tell you a
little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years.
Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that
were previously
successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It
wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable
economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because
many of you know
from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than
ever before. The
middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they
were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those
who never had
anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich",
inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give
you financial
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than
you have
ever imagined.
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor
anyone else who has
provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION
DOLLARS! I
have retired from the program after sending out over
1,600,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make this and several
other programs
here and over seas.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It
works
exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting
report to everyone you
can think of. One of the people you send this to may
send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on every one of them!
Remember though,
the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my
friend, I have given
you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!  "THINK
ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and
REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when
YOU
participate. Figure out the worst possible response and
no matter how you
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get
back what you invested.
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA.
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS
OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that
you could
use up to $46,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say, "BULL... ",
please read this
program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a
perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do:
As with all multi-level
businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our
products. Because
of the
global nature of the Internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level
business partners from all
over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS
COME BY
MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are
not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home,
store or office. This is the
GREATEST
Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. This is what you MUST do:
1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you
don't order them).
a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE
ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of
a problem) to the person whose name
appears on the list next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL
PROBLEMS!
b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports.
You will need all
five reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.
c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five reports.
Save them on your
computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them
from you.
2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to
each report, or
their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in
steps "a" through "g" or
you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once
you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if
you change it.
Remember this method  has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not
work.
a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and REM0VE
the name and
address under REPORT #5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no
doubt
counting their $46,000! Also, change the name of the company,
the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the  top of this document to
your own.

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you
copy every
name and address ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save
it to your computer.
Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to
participate in this is
practically nothing (surely you can afford $25). You obviously
already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with
marketing your
business on the internet, the 5 Reports you purchase will provide you with
invaluable marketing
INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-
mails, where to find thousands of Free classified ads and much, much more.
In addition you will
be provided with INFORMATION on Internet

Marketing Clubs such as INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES(IMR): This is
one the Premiere Internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET. This club
provides a forum
where Internet marketers from all over the world can exchange ideas and
secrets on Internet
Marketing. In addition, members of this club are provided
free Internet
marketing tools and services for the Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketer. They
will provide you with
free bulk e-mail software and up to 1,000,000 fresh e-mail addresses each
week. This club will
provide you with hundreds of free resources which
include: How to obtain
free web sites, how to obtain top rankings in search engines for your
web-site, how to send
bulk e-mail into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on news
groups, free
classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads
and much more.
There are two primary methods of building your downline:
METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all
those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receives
a 0.3% response. Using a good list the response could be
much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of
programs instead of
2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.
With a 0.3%
response, that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out
of those 0.3%,
36 people respond and order
REPORT #2. Those 36 mails out 2,000 programs each for a total of  72,000.
The 0.3%
response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. Those 216 send out 2,000
programs each for a
432,000 total. The 0.3%response to that is 1,296 orders
for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000
total. The 0.3%
response to that is 7,776 orders for REPORT #5. That's 7,776 $5 bills for
you, CASH!!! Your
total income in this example is $30 + $180 +
$1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of  $46,650!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE
YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE
TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT
OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD
OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost
to participate in this
is practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection
and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods
for bulk emailing,
tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain
e-mail lists and show you
how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free.
METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS
of FREE
places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start  small just to see how
well it works. Assume
your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to participate on your
first level. (Placing a
lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also
assume that everyone
else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downlink members. Follow this example
to
achieve the STAGGERING results below.
1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x  6)........................$30
2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180
3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080
4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480
5th level--6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880






.................................................$46,650
_________________________________________________________________

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit
6 people each.
Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20  people to participate!
Many people will
get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!  For every
$5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered.
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!
This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and
address on it, will be
prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report!
_________________________________________________________________

AVAILABLE REPORTS
*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***
Notes:  ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT
ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is
concealed by wrapping it in at least two
sheets of paper.
On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the
report you are ordering,
(b) your e-mail address, and  (c)your name & postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
E. Bludworth
1982 St. Rd. 44 #113
New Smyrna Beach, Fl. 32168

REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
ZT Corp.
13237 Montfort, Ste. 301
Dallas, Tx, 75240

REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Gary Goldman
6476 Bellevue Dr.
Conyers, Ga. 30094

REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of
Multilevel Marketing and the Internet"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Richard R. Civil
1800 Laurel Rd., Apt. #1603
Lindenwold, NJ 08021

REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE"
ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:
Shawn Thomas
2013 Huntingdon Chase
Atlanta, Ga. 30350

There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide!
******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow
the directions accurately.

* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when
the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report.

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the
instructions exactly, your results
WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks,continue
advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should
receive at least 100
orders for REPORT#2. If you don't,  continue advertising or
sending e-mails
until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will
Continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in
front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want
to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue
placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit
to the income you will generate from this business!

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate
in this program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE
YOUR LIFE?
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program:
1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO
PRODUCE!

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP!

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT, WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO
ADVERTISE!
4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE
WORLD!
5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $25 INVESTMENT IS
YOUR TIME!
6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE
PROFIT!
7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER.

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially
the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't
work and you'll lose a lot
of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great
opportunity to make
relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do
choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way
to financial
security.

Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a  cost
accountant with a
major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the
program I
grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the
whole thing,
spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew"
it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.
I made merciless
fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so"
on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two
weeks she had
received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in
$5 bills! I was
shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it
wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did
have seven more
years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me.
We owe it all to MLM.

Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely
profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I
was approached
several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see
what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.
To my astonishment,
I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours,
Pam Hedland Halmstad, Sweden

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this
plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was
so little that there was
just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at
least get my money back. I surprised when I  found my medium-size post
office box crammed
with orders! For a while, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking
up my mail at the
window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of
my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter
where people live. There
simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I
shouldn't have given it
a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had
to wait until I was
e-mailed another program,.11 months passed then it
came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first
try!!

Mohamed, Cairo, Egypt

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL
FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN.

DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS!!!!





From anonymous at openpgp.net  Sun Jan 21 00:42:08 2001
From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:42:08 -0500
Subject: UK: Police to get new powers on DNA testing
Message-ID: <32e6d150761abb474dd881c9dea6a694@noisebox.remailer.org>


http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000114832908976&rtmo=0xGisxNq&atmo=0xGisxNq&pg=/et/01/1/20/ndna20.html

By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor

THE prospect of routine DNA screening of the entire population drew nearer yesterday when the Government proposed to give the police the power to retain indefinitely samples taken from innocent people.

Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, said he would "proceed cautiously and proportionately" on extending the law further. But the measure would allow a tripling of the existing database of one million samples.

The proposal forms the centrepiece of the Criminal Justice and Police Bill, which also provides for a significant extension of police powers to control the streets and seize property. 

Officers will be able to issue fixed penalty notices for a long list of misdemeanours, ranging from drunkenness to throwing fireworks and making hoax 999 calls. The level of the fines has still to be fixed, but could be between �100 and �2,500.

Police will also be able to enforce curfews imposed on children up to the age of 16, stop people drinking in designated public places, arrest suspected kerb crawlers and close down unruly pubs. The Bill gives the police new powers to seize documents and computer disks even if they contain privileged legal information.

But the powers to retain DNA samples and fingerprints are the most controversial elements of the Bill. For the first time, police would be able to keep samples taken from volunteers, or from people later eliminated from inquiries for possible future use. At the moment, the samples must be destroyed if a suspect is not charged or not convicted.

The police called for additional powers after two cases in which convictions were quashed because guilt was proved with DNA evidence that should have been destroyed.

One was the case of Michael Weir, who was convicted of the murder of Leonard Harris, 79, on the basis of blood samples taken during a drugs investigation that was discontinued. As a result, his conviction was quashed by the Court of Appeal, although the Law Lords said later that this was "contrary to good sense".

Mr Straw said the new Bill would clarify the law in this area. He did not regard it as any more of an infringement of civil liberties than the widespread use of closed-circuit television cameras.

He said: "The public are more worried about the arrest and conviction of very serious criminals and persistent offenders through the use of this kind of evidence. They will widely welcome this change because it will greatly help the police and it will cut lots of costs."

Asked why he had not gone the whole way and introduced automatic screening of the population, Mr Straw said that the new measure was a "proportionate" response. He said: "You have to move cautiously in this area. I am clear that there is an overwhelming case for this change and there will be wide acceptance for it."

The Home Office hopes to build the national DNA database from one million samples to 3.5 million in the next three years. As well as retaining the samples and fingerprints of all suspects, those taken from volunteers in mass screenings will also be retained, provided they give written permission.

Ann Widdecombe, the shadow home secretary, said that the DNA and police seizure powers had "serious civil liberties implications". But she predicted that the legislation would run out of parliamentary time if an election were held in May.

She said: "This is yet another example of Labour's obsession with spin. It is little more than an attempt to grab headlines with spot fine and curfew powers that will overburden police forces when they are already at breaking point."

Simon Hughes, for the Liberal Democrats, said: "This is a typical mixture of useful reform and gimmickry. We are still to be convinced that fixed penalty notices will not turn into a bureaucratic mess."






From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 21 01:20:44 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:20:44 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119234321.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:59:36AM -0600
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10101192324290.1702-100000@cavern.uark.edu> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119234321.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010121042044.A24468@cluebot.com>


Sparring with Choate is about as useful as beating oneself with a
rubber baton, just far less rewarding.

I never said animals should be trained to fear an owner or any other
human; to say otherwise is simple Choatian exaggeration. But my "show
of force" point is perfectly reasonable, and I stand by it.

-Declan
PS: I don't have pets. I travel too much. I had a fish once.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:59:36AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> [ WARNING: Use of 3rd person referentials. Not necessarily meant as a
>            personal indicative.]
> 
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Mac Norton wrote:
> 
> > Well, I think animals fear the tone in your voice when you
> > say "NO!" as contrasted with the usual tone in your voice.
> 
> That's not fear, that's respect of the pecking order (I assume you
> speak of dogs since most other animals couldn't give a fuck less about
> your tone of voice unless you're yelling). Fear is an entirely different
> matter from respect.
> 
> More people should understand this distinction. Hell, most people
> shouldn't even have pets.
> 
> > That shouldn't be accompanied by a beating, but a smart
> > two-fingered tap on the muzzle during housebreaking, 
> > followed by promptly putting the pup outside or on the 
> > newspaper, is not abuse in my book.  Is it in yours?
> 
> Don't know about abuse but it's crappy training technique (and I say that 
> from raising dogs for 37 years). Also, abuse is about more than simply
> striking them. It includes negligence as well. It means not doing what you
> should be doing.
> 
> No, you shouldn't be tapping them on the nose or otherwise physically
> striking them. If you wait around until the animal has to take a crap in
> the floor then YOU have failed in the training. The goal is to teach the
> animal to ask to go out. That means YOU have to learn the animals schedule
> and use it to teach them the expected behaviour. That means YOU have to
> follow the feeding schedule and time the animals bowl rate. It means  YOU
> have to set the alarm clock to take the animal out (or on the paper, and
> sit there till IT's done not until your patience runs out) BEFORE they
> can't hold their bladder any longer (which is after all the true goal
> we're after here at least). That means it's YOUR responsibility to take
> them out regularly every 2-3 hours or so (and that means at nite when
> you'd rather be sleeping too) when they're puppies. Basically it means YOU
> have to get off your ass and quite asking the animal to do it for you. It
> means when the animal come at 4am and asks to go out you get your lazy
> butt out of bed and take them outside. Basically YOU need to be doing this
> before you ever give the puppy to the new owner (which shouldn't happen
> prior to 8 weeks anyway). YOU need to teach the new owner and if they show
> ANY hesitency then don't give them the animal, they'll only abuse it.
> 
> Dogs are genetically wired for this training. When young pups prior to eye
> opening use the bathroom the mother eats the crap and piss (hence pottie
> training a dog prior to ~8 weeks is a waste of time for all concerned).
> As they age she pays attention to their feeding cycle and physically takes
> them out of the den when she knows it's pottie time. They connect 'go
> outside den' with 'my bladder is uncomfortable'. When you first get your
> pup expect piss and shit everywhere for the first week. Take the dog out
> every two hours irrespective of badder/bowel movement. And don't react to
> the bowel/bladder movement at all with respect to 'punishing' (what a
> fucking power mad concept) the dog. Just clean it up. After that they'll
> start putting 2 and 2 together on their own. It usually take from between
> 3 and 6 weeks for them to figure it out and be reliable [there are
> exception, I have a wolf hybrid it took 6 months - wolves don't pottie
> train well at all. I was prepared for it to never learn. Really it
> doesn't care, another difference many miss. I have a domestic dog now who
> doesn't care for fences or gates. I have to keep her behind a 6ft fence on
> 3/4 in aircraft cable] and I was prepared to keep cleaning it up and to
> take it out every two hours irrespective. It has to do with a slightly
> different territory sense between wolves and domesticated dogs.).
> 
> Sticking their nose in piss, yelling at them because they couldn't hold
> their bladder (think of how you feel after a six hour car drive and no
> rest stop) or whacking them with a rolled up newspaper (I dare you to
> strike a wolf hybrid) ain't the way any more than sitting around on your
> ass drinking beer and watching TV until the animal shits in the floor and
> then you yell at it and drag it around pointing at newspaper (like a puppy
> has any clue what paper is) is the way or it's supposed to read your mind.
> (After all, if you're so smart how come you didn't recognize the pup was
> in distress in the first place?)
> 
> Now this should not be interpreted to mean that no physical contact is
> required. For example the best way to teach dogs not to rush the door is
> to pin them in it. If a dog pushes you and you don't want then push it
> away hard enough to put it on the ground (similar to a 'alpha roll', and
> if you don't know what a 'alpha roll' is or how to use it you know nothing
> about training dogs). If you teach them 'back up' and they don't you alpha
> roll them on their back.
> 
> As to demanding respect from dogs, you don't do it with your voice. You do
> it with your eyes (another sign of inexperience is this common mistake,
> even a lot of 'professionals' make it). In addition you shouldn't play
> 'tug of war' with it and you should NEVER let a puppy/dog get on top of a
> child or person, EVER!!!!!
> 
> There are some monks who raise German Shephards, they write some excellent
> books. Anyone raising any sort of canine should read at least one of them.
> 
> With cats the usual failure is insufficient handling in the first 4 weeks
> after birth (raised tradition, applehead, Siamese for nearly 20 years). If
> this isn't done the animal will never be settled. In the case of cats that
> don't receive any human contact in that first 4 weeks, they'll never be
> domesticated. And yelling 'NO' at a cat is a fruiteless exercise in ego.
> And Ferrets are a whole other ball of wax entirely. Yell at a cow or a
> sheep and you're just as likely to be sitting on your ass with a broken
> hip. Yell at or strike a horse and it'll shy from you till the day you
> die.
> 
> (And despite what a lot of 'trainers', really people who want to be well
> know in the competitive ring, might say; never keep your dog crated.)
> 
> Bottem line, if an animal fails in its behavior it rests on one set of
> shoulders and one set of shoulders only, the owner. It is NEVER the
> animals fault.
> 
> Raising a pet isn't about what you the owner want, it's about what the
> animal needs. It's about 'caring' not 'ownership' (which is one reason
> among many PETA is a bunch of fucked up assholes). And anyone who buys a
> pet after watching a movie, for a holiday present, or because they think
> it would be 'cool' needs to review this point in a serious fashion.
> 
> Anyway, good luck with your pet. Over and out.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 21 01:22:56 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:22:56 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 08:32:14AM -0800
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com> <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com> <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com> <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <20010121042256.B24468@cluebot.com>




On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 08:32:14AM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
>      --
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
>  > > Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
>  > > snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?
> 
> At 11:54 PM 1/19/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>  > Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.
>  >
>  > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time.
> 
> I cannot recall any employer ever calling security to stick guns in my face.

You're thinking too literally. Show of force: When an employer reminds
a slacker that having a job is not a right.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 21 01:23:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:23:33 -0500
Subject: John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <3A68E4A2.10085.286A3F@localhost>; from Raymond@fbn.bc.ca on Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 01:06:43AM -0800
References: <v0422080bb68cc213de0c@[198.4.94.186]>; <20010119001825.E30501@cluebot.com> <3A68E4A2.10085.286A3F@localhost>
Message-ID: <20010121042333.C24468@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 01:06:43AM -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:
> Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote
> 
> > But I wonder who really believes Ashcroft is being absolutely genuine
> > in his responses to Feinstein?
> 
> In the last election in Texas when G.W. Bush was running for 
> governor he was accused by his opponent of only using the 
> governvorship of Texas as a base to run for the presidency of the 
> US.  He promised to serve a full term.

So did Clinton.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 21 01:26:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:26:19 -0500
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 02:01:23PM -0600
References: <F88pgTFur2iz2Mb1s7n00001064@hotmail.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010121042619.D24468@cluebot.com>


On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 02:01:23PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Can you distinguish a "cypherpunk" genre from a "cyberpunk" genre, and is it 
> > a worthwhile distinction, and what are the features ?
> 
> Yes, it is worthwhile. Good luck finding anything that is remotely
> acceptable.

Quick tip: Anything that Choate recommends, avoid.

You could search on politechbot.com for "cypherpunk," I presume. Or
wired.com.

-Declan




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 02:49:25 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 05:49:25 -0500
Subject: Safety issue:  7.62 NATO == .308 Win   NOT!!!
In-Reply-To: <3A68D716.464E8D81@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121003419.00cd3c30@flex.com>


At 07:09 PM 1/19/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 >     Duh! Reese, you better learn to read.

Actually, I did read - the text at the top of the page, where it said
.308 Win and 7.62 NATO owners.  A quick look at the pictures, and I
then hit the <send>.  If anything, I'm guilty of haste.  Sue me.

I am not willing to place my life and extremities in the safety of your 
anecdotal experience.   I'll take the lumps and remain steadfast; owners
of arms chambered in 7.62 NATO should not be firing .308 Win ammo in
them, unless the unit in question has been headspaced and pronounced
"safe" for the comparatively flimsy-walled .308 Win ammo, per the .308
Win headspace specifications.

It'll be interesting to see what comes of the investigation Clint McKee
has offered to perform, and don't get me started on 7.62 CETME.

Reese

 >In the first place, the ammo
 >was clearly German 7.62 NATO military surplus, not commercial .308
 >Winchester ammo. Secondly, as a handloader who has done some wild
 >experiments with many calibres, rifle, pistol, and shotgun, over at least
 >35 years, there just ain't no way that a little headspace problem causes
 >anything like that -- in fact, I've had a number of rifles with excess
 >headspace and all that happens, even with hot loads, is you blow off the
 >back of the case. I've had literally hundreds of case head separations --
 >they don't blow up the gun.
 >     In fact, there is almost nothing that could do that sort of damage
 >except someone loading the shell with semtex or the like. And the article
 >also makes that *very* clear. They theorize that possible that shell got
 >loaded with .30 carbine powder which is a fast burning pistol powder, but
 >I really doubt that would explain it either. Bullseye powder, possibly,
 >but it had to be a deliberate thing. And it seems to me that I recall
 >somewhere someone writing about that sort of sabotage being done at
 >various times to make soldiers afraid to fire their weapons.
 >
 >
 >
 >Reese wrote:
 >
 >> Another quibble.  This is a safety issue, so READ it.
 >>
 >> One of our members wrote:
 >>
 >>  >It was introduced in 7.62 mm NATO, very, very close to .308
 >>  >Winchester. (Some say there are headspace differences, though I have
 >>  >used 7.62 mm NATO in my Remington 700 VSSF, ostensibly chambered for
 >>  >.308 Winchester, and I have used .308 Winchester in my Federal Arms
 >>  >FA-91/G3, ostensibly chambered for 7.62 mm NATO.
 >>
 >> Here's a 7.62 NATO gun that blew up with .308 Win ammo not long ago:
 >> http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html
 >>
 >> These two cartridges are NOT the same, more here:
 >> http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
 >>
 >> Reese





From moolah05 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 21 05:56:53 2001
From: moolah05 at yahoo.com (moolah05 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 05:56:53
Subject: I WAS BROKE!!! Now I Earn Thousands Monthly...Here's How...
Message-ID: <584.667563.871464@mail.netidea.com>


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From driving_records at mindspring.com  Sun Jan 21 07:40:43 2001
From: driving_records at mindspring.com (driving_records at mindspring.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 07:40:43
Subject: this is great            
Message-ID: <200101211236.f0LCaQC27425@cowboy.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jan 21 06:27:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 08:27:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cryptographic Tourism
In-Reply-To: <F212tMFNesyfN2BF23w0000552e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010121081658.5612P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Foobulus Baracculus wrote:

> I am to visit Russia soon: Moscow and St Petersburg, as a tourist. My 
> interest is to visit interest telecommunications, cryptographic, espionage 
> and related places. I have already visited GCHQ, MI5/MI6, NSA, DSD/ASIO on 
> my trips to the United States, Australia and Great Britain. Can readers 
> offer suggestions for a high-tech junky.

My suggestion is be very(!) careful (or skip it entirely, the crypto
search not Russia). I don't know of any crypto museums in Moscow (can't 
say for St Petersburg). Those folks are pretty scarry when it comes to
security and such. You are aware that private possession/use of crypto in
Russia is illegal? Also, you can't just get up and wander around the
countryside either.

I'd ask a favor, in your wandering around if you run across any russki 
WWII tactical (board) wargames please consider bringing a copy back for
me. I'd go as high as $100 US.

Da svidanya moi droog.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bear at sonic.net  Sun Jan 21 09:04:16 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:04:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010121042256.B24468@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101210858140.18527-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>You're thinking too literally. Show of force: When an employer reminds
>a slacker that having a job is not a right.

That's just shit rolling downhill.  How long is a manager going to have 
his job if he *doesn't* fire slackers?  Or how long can an employer 
continue to make a profit and thus remain in business if they never 
clear "dead-weight" employees out of the company?  

Reminding a slacker of this fact is merely a reality check.  

Now, if it were an attractive member of the appropriate sex who was 
refusing to have sex with the employer, *that* would be a pure show of 
force...  

				Bear






From foobar_2001 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 21 06:04:33 2001
From: foobar_2001 at hotmail.com (Foobulus Baracculus)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:04:33 -0500
Subject: Cryptographic Tourism
Message-ID: <F212tMFNesyfN2BF23w0000552e@hotmail.com>



I am to visit Russia soon: Moscow and St Petersburg, as a tourist. My 
interest is to visit interest telecommunications, cryptographic, espionage 
and related places. I have already visited GCHQ, MI5/MI6, NSA, DSD/ASIO on 
my trips to the United States, Australia and Great Britain. Can readers 
offer suggestions for a high-tech junky.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From wasahr at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 21 09:18:56 2001
From: wasahr at pacbell.net (Bill Sanchez)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:18:56 -0800
Subject: setup is a pain
Message-ID: <000c01c083ce$3c8a92b0$0100a8c0@willie>

Hi,
I know you've been able to get Vmware running and I was hoping to see if you would mind giving me a few tips on getting this up and running?
Bill
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jan 21 07:29:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:29:27 -0600
Subject: ifp - For fun
Message-ID: <3A6B0057.E3E0EE4A@ssz.com>


http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~hamblin/ifp.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jan 21 09:42:14 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:42:14 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010402b690c96069a0@[207.111.241.171]>


At 11:02 AM -0500 1/21/01, dmolnar wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>  > (1) - books on future worlds and spaces: in particular, those that explore
>>  > social, moral, political, technical, ethical issues (to be 
>>science fiction),
>>  > or those that merely explore worlds (to be fantasy)
>>
>>  I see the utility in fiction to tell us what is most likely not to happen.
>
>"If I name a future, then it won't happen" - ?
>
>This reminds me of the view that SF writers are trying to "predict the
>future." I don't think picturing "the future" and then being "wrong" or
>"right" about that is what fiction is usually about. More often about
>commenting on the present.

I used to read a _lot_ of science fiction. (Many reasons why I read 
much less now.)

What SF did for me was to "immerse me" in various 
possible-but-not-necessarily-probable alternative futures, a kind of 
way of allowing a person to think that computers might one day be 
ubiquitous, that national borders might be undermined by technology, 
that alternative social organizations might arise.

Heinlein and his editor, John Campbell, used to refer to this as "if 
those goes on..."

Take some trend and extrapolate it. "If this goes on..."

Highways, for example, in Heinlein's "The Roads Must Roll."

Vinge's "True Names," extrapolating trends already becoming apparent 
to some in the 1970s.

And so on.

The most important thing reading SF does for people, IMO, is to 
disabuse them of the notion that there is "a" future. "What will 
_the_ future look like?" seems silly when a sheaf of possible futures 
is "what really is." Those who read a lot of good SF are more likely 
to understand this point, that futures are made, not pre-ordained, 
and that futures may hinge on very subtle points. (Reading a lot of 
"what if" novels helps. A recent one I enjoyed a great deal is 
"Resurrection Day," where the Cuban Missile Crisis escalated on a 
single hinge point--attacking Cuban bases after the U-2 was shot down 
on Saturday--and a nuclear war followed. There's also a movie out in 
theaters now, "Thirteen Days," about these events.)

One reason I read very little SF these days is that much of it is 
repetitive, or is set so far in the future as to be non-interesting 
to me, etc. Plus, the usual effects of aging. SF novels are less 
interesting at age 30 than at age 15, even less so by age 40, etc.

Sometimes some gems still appear. Of course, each person has their 
own taste. For my taste, the best SF I have read in many years is by 
an obscure writer named David Zindell. "Neverness," "The Broken God," 
"The Wild," and "The War in Heaven." Each is a thick, dense novel. 
All set in the same distant future universe, much like "Dune," but 
better (IMO).

Unfortunately, all are out of print. I buy up copies of the 
paperbacks when they show up in my local used bookstore. (Amazon 
wants $18 plus some handling fee for used copies!)

Look for "Neverness" and/or "The Broken God." The latter builds on 
the developments of the former, but can be read on its own. The other 
two novels really need to have the foundations laid by the earlier 
novels.


>
>
>I am reminded of the Salon article "Twilight of the crypto-geeks."
>http://www.salonmag.com/tech/feature/2000/04/13/libertarians/index1.html

Well, what do you expect from Salon? They might as well have Paulina 
Borsook writing about the decline of capitalism and the selfishness 
of corporations. Or have David Brin expound on the need for cameras 
everywhere.

Declan can comment on this, too, but it's clear that editors like 
"Hegelian" set-ups of conflict (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). So 
phrases like "Twilight of the ...." resonate in various ways, both 
Hegelian and Wagnerian. The phrases suggest "end of an era" when in 
fact there is no such end.

So Zimmerman is not a libertarian? We knew this in 1991. So Bruce 
Schneier thinks crypto is overrated? It is, in many ways. And so on.

"Twilight of the crypto-geeks" indeed.

>
>  > > - books on cryptocommunities, where a major part of the plot 
>revolves around
>  > > people that are "cryptoheads" and for which cryptography and 
>technology is a
>>  > major part of their lifestyle (people who somewhat live, breathe and eat
>>  > cryptography).
>>
>>  Ugh. The thought of a community that is so paranoid it exist through
>>  ubiquitous crypto is a bit self-contradictory I think. Who would you trust
>>  to make the technology?
>
>Who said anything about the community being paranoid? You can use
>cryptography to do new things beyond hiding data, you know. Probably the
>most pressing would be authentication and controlling the data presented
>to the world about you. Digital signatures and credentials.

BTW, "True Names" was just such a book. The participants were unknown 
to each other. (Vinge chose not to discuss the crypto in detail, 
wisely.)

>
>Now you can go further and ask "what if a society had digital auction
>protools?" or "what if selling your CPU cycles was normal and easy?"
>or "what if everyone knew about time-lock puzzles and time-release crypto
>and could use it in everyday life?" or "what if the elections went
>according to protocol X?"
>
>Even further, what if a society had the will and the capability to use all
>of these crypto protocols just as soon as they were developed? (For
>instance, posit that the provable security problem and the protocol
>assembly problem are solved. You think of something you want to do, you
>can put it together yourself and have it work.)

These were some of the things I was putting into my Great American 
Unfinished Novel, between 1988 and 1991, when I finally abandoned it. 
(No, lest anyone ask, I _won't_ send copies or excerpts out. So don't 
even ask. :-) )

>
>  > How would anyone have the time to make the horde
>>  of technologies this sort of society requires?
>
>PGP is here now, though of course no one uses it. PKI seems to be driven
>by something, e-commerce maybe. Academics and corporate research are
>looking for new and fun things to do with math. Sometimes they hire
>students to implement those fun things. Sometimes other people read the
>papers and implement the fun things themselves.
>
>Where did anonymous remailers come from?
>

Indeed.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 21 06:47:32 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:47:32 -0500
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121000140.00ccfab0@flex.com>
References: <20010121042256.B24468@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
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Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010121094520.00a74ca0@mail.well.com>


At 12:07 AM 1/21/01 -1000, Reese wrote:

>It wasn't a right for the what, 40,000 in flint michigan, either, was it?

It's called at-will employment: You keep your employer happy, you get your 
job. (I'm starting to think you're not only very educated, but not very 
educable. I'd love for you to prove me wrong; that would likely involve 
refraining from mouthing off.)

-Declan




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jan 21 10:06:11 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:06:11 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b690c96069a0@[207.111.241.171]>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <a05010402b690c96069a0@[207.111.241.171]>
Message-ID: <a05010404b690d21f7788@[207.111.241.171]>



I want to expand on a point I made here:

At 9:42 AM -0800 1/21/01, Tim May wrote:
>At 11:02 AM -0500 1/21/01, dmolnar wrote:
>>
>>
>>I am reminded of the Salon article "Twilight of the crypto-geeks."
>>http://www.salonmag.com/tech/feature/2000/04/13/libertarians/index1.html
>
>Well, what do you expect from Salon? They might as well have Paulina 
>Borsook writing about the decline of capitalism and the selfishness 
>of corporations. Or have David Brin expound on the need for cameras 
>everywhere.
>
>Declan can comment on this, too, but it's clear that editors like 
>"Hegelian" set-ups of conflict (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). So 
>phrases like "Twilight of the ...." resonate in various ways, both 
>Hegelian and Wagnerian. The phrases suggest "end of an era" when in 
>fact there is no such end.


And of course this "thesis-anthesis-synthesis" viewpoint, or, more 
simply, the "battle" viewpoint, is precisely why "Wired" put 
Cypherpunks on the cover of their second issue. And why "the little 
offshore rig pirates who could" are featured in a more recent issue.

Conflict sells magazines. So small groups of people are characterized 
as the vanguard of a new revolutionary movement ("Crypto Rebels"), as 
the forward scouts, as revolutionaries. "Forbes" even put Sameer 
Parekh on the cover of their mag, full face, with some tag line about 
how "This man wants to overthrow the U.S. government." That's 
attention I'm happy _not_ to have gotten, frankly.

Dave Mandl, who used to be on the list in the beginning, called this 
the "freak of the week" effect. And people in movements use this 
media attention to get their message out. Both sides use each other. 
We all have heard the tales. (It's just useful to remind folks here 
on this list that the same thing happens with our kinds of interests.)

All of this has been seen many times before, in contexts ranging from 
protests about the Vietnam War to abortion rights marches and on and 
on. Phony conflicts are set up and a few ringleaders get a lot of 
ink. The more outrageous their comments, the more face time they get.

And such a story can segue nicely into a follow-up piece a few years 
later, about the "Twilight of the Crypto Geeks" or about how Vietnam 
War protestors are now making big bugs on Wall Street. Thesis, 
Antithesis, Synthesis.

The moral (all drama has a moral...)? Believe neither the initial 
hype nor the inevitable analysis of what went wrong, why the 
revolution never happened, now disillusionment set in, and so on.

Drama 101 as taught by Herr Doktor Professor Hegel, with dissenting 
comments from hs former sidekick, Fred N.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 21 07:26:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:26:07 -0500
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121002454.00cc7470@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:27:20AM -1000
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <F88pgTFur2iz2Mb1s7n00001064@hotmail.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <20010121042619.D24468@cluebot.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010121002454.00cc7470@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010121102607.A27440@cluebot.com>




On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:27:20AM -1000, Reese wrote:
> Take anything Declan says with a grain of salt, too - he leaves the "CDR"
> in the subject line.

Yawn. Some things are not worth my time, and editing Choatisms is one
of those. Flaming him is slightly more rewarding, but ranks as
pleasures about as high as watching George W. Bush be inaugurated:
It's more interesting for the reaction than the substance.

Similarly, if Reese is the best intellect that the cypherpunks list
offers nowadays, not only is that a damnable shame, but a strong
indicator that it's time to leave. Guess I'm starting to sound like Tim.

-Declan




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jan 21 10:29:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:29:42 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <a05010404b690d21f7788@[207.111.241.171]>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <a05010402b690c96069a0@[207.111.241.171]>
 <a05010404b690d21f7788@[207.111.241.171]>
Message-ID: <a05010405b690da736c99@[207.111.241.171]>


At 10:06 AM -0800 1/21/01, Tim May wrote:
>
>And such a story can segue nicely into a follow-up piece a few years 
>later, about the "Twilight of the Crypto Geeks" or about how Vietnam 
>War protestors are now making big bugs on Wall Street. Thesis, 
>Antithesis, Synthesis.

"Big _bucks_ on Wall Street." This was not some intentional pun, just 
some kind of weird mental slip. Strange.

(I sometimes make the usual homonym errors, such as using "their" for 
"there," even when I know full well the correct usage of each and 
spot the errors .)


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From Anchor335 at cs.com  Sun Jan 21 07:37:21 2001
From: Anchor335 at cs.com (Anchor335 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:37:21 EST
Subject: uunsescribe
Message-ID: <b2.102a518b.279c5c31@cs.com>

plaese take meoff the sexxxmailer.........thank you

HAVE A GREAT WEEK.......
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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sun Jan 21 08:41:33 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:41:33 -0600
Subject: Safety issue:  7.62 NATO == .308 Win   NOT!!!
References: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
	 <4.3.2.7.2.20010115055249.00c73ee0@flex.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010121003419.00cd3c30@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3A6B10F1.AE454CE4@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


   I can see you aren't a handloader. I'd be willing to bet that the
supposed amount of difference between 7.62 milspec and .308 Win
commercial is not nearly as great as the variation of chamber dimension
of either between various manufacturers. That is, if you went around
taking chamber casts of military production 7.62 rifles throughout the
world, the diff between min and max would be much greater than the
supposed diff between 7.62 and .308.
    This whole thing is rather hysterical -- emenating from a bunch of
nervous nellies with too much time on their hands. About the only reason
to be concerned at all is if you were in a combat situation and excess
headspace caused a case separation that jammed the gun (and, believe me,
getting the rest of the case out can be a *real* hassle if you don't
have a broken shell extractor tool) or if the headspace was so tight
that it caused high enough pressures to blow the primer (that's why the
military cases have crimped primers, right?) and that jammed the gun.
      I'd also bet that there is much greater variation between various
manufactured milspec 7.62 brass than there is between "7,62 vs .308".
Some brittle or thin or steel or thick necked or oversize bullet, or
whatever. And, of course, if you are firing mil surplus like the guy in
the article, what if you get a deliberately sabotaged round?
       All that happens normally if you've got a chamber that's a bit
large and a case that's a bit small if that that brass streches to fit.
This is called "fire-forming" by handloarders. The case then fits your
gun and won't stretch any further. If the excess stretching is a lot,
you won't get as many reloads before the case cracks. You look for a
bright ring on the brass near the base -- and use a paper clip with a
little hook on one end to probe the inside for thinness.
        Anyway, it's much ado about nothing.  -- Glad you mentioned the
7.62 CETME round -- look at that, all those flutes in the case wall.
hey, if you want fool around, take .45ACP ammo and fire it in your
7.62.... heh, heh, heh.  It works, won't hurt the gun. Or fire a .45
Colt thru a .410 shotgun.




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Jan 21 08:02:32 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:02:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120155227.5612L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> > (1) - books on future worlds and spaces: in particular, those that explore 
> > social, moral, political, technical, ethical issues (to be science fiction), 
> > or those that merely explore worlds (to be fantasy)
> 
> I see the utility in fiction to tell us what is most likely not to happen.

"If I name a future, then it won't happen" - ? 

This reminds me of the view that SF writers are trying to "predict the
future." I don't think picturing "the future" and then being "wrong" or
"right" about that is what fiction is usually about. More often about
commenting on the present. 

> 
> > (2) - books on cryptography theory and systems: from the basic theory 
> > (cryptography primitives), to the high level systems (public key 
> > infrastructure).

Just in passing, you may want to check out Stefan Brands' thesis -
depending on your background. If you're new to cryptography per se, then
_Applied Cryptography_ is a place to start. 


> > (3) - books on privacy, ethics and social questions: defining good and bad 
> > cryptography in the various contexts (low level technical, high level 
> > social), including politics (trade barriers).
> 
> 'defining good and bad'? Not possible, there are no absolute standards by
> which to judge.

The definition would assert some standard by which to judge. Not
necessarily grounded in any "absolute standard." You can reject that
standard, of course, but there are still people trying to formulate and
defend these standards.

One effort in this direction which comes to mind is the "communtarian"
approach applied to privacy by Amitai Etizoni. What I've heard of it I
don't like, but I don't know much more than a few basic things -
"community" above all, corporate invasions of privacy pure evil, state
intrusions less evil because subject to scrutiny. 

To this you could oppose the sort of libertarian standard more often seen
on cypherunks, with its familiar consequences. 


> I also think it is important that there be specific
> identification and discussion on issues which aren't ameniable to
> 'technical means'.

Yes. _Secrets and Lies_ is a start towards this in an information security
context.

I am reminded of the Salon article "Twilight of the crypto-geeks." 
http://www.salonmag.com/tech/feature/2000/04/13/libertarians/index1.html

I am also reminded of the phrase "technology is neutral" and how it seems
to polarize a debate. One side regards it as an argument that banning
technology is misguided. The other side as evidence of total naivete. I
don't suppose anyone has actually tried analysing where that phrase or
"technical vs. social means" pops up?

> things (the hallmark of any enlightened society I suspect). The US flies a
> plane over and drops everyone some sort of PDA widget. Now, assume in
> addition your child is sick and you believe she may die. How do you use
> the device to save her life?

Why, write a killer version of Solitaire and barter it for medicine!

Probably not. 

Does this thing have connections to the outside world? To other PDAs
within range? How much range? Who can you contact with this? Can you sell
the results of your computation to others? 

Now if you were the only one with a PDA, maybe you could figure out a way
to sell computation to other people just by doing arithmetic. Perform
parlor tricks and pass yourself off as a calculator. But everyone has a
PDA. So now you need to have skills...


> > - books on cryptoterrorism and cryptoliberation, where a major part of the 
> > plot revolves around the use of cryptography technologies in terrorism or 
> > liberation.
> 
> Not a lot, some about viruses and such. There's not a lot of glammer in
> it.

There's a bit more on computer security generally - _Terminal Compromise_
by Schwartau comes to mind. I think I owe him about $3.50...

> 
> > - books on cryptocommunities, where a major part of the plot revolves around 
> > people that are "cryptoheads" and for which cryptography and technology is a 
> > major part of their lifestyle (people who somewhat live, breathe and eat 
> > cryptography).
> 
> Ugh. The thought of a community that is so paranoid it exist through
> ubiquitous crypto is a bit self-contradictory I think. Who would you trust
> to make the technology?

Who said anything about the community being paranoid? You can use
cryptography to do new things beyond hiding data, you know. Probably the
most pressing would be authentication and controlling the data presented
to the world about you. Digital signatures and credentials.

If this PKI stuff works, then in 50 years it won't be the paranoids that
can exist only through ubiquitous crypto - it'll be *all* of us. Digital
driver's licenses and all. (Thanks to VeriSign for that awful phrase). 

Now you can go further and ask "what if a society had digital auction
protools?" or "what if selling your CPU cycles was normal and easy?" 
or "what if everyone knew about time-lock puzzles and time-release crypto
and could use it in everyday life?" or "what if the elections went
according to protocol X?" 

Even further, what if a society had the will and the capability to use all
of these crypto protocols just as soon as they were developed? (For
instance, posit that the provable security problem and the protocol
assembly problem are solved. You think of something you want to do, you
can put it together yourself and have it work.)

 > How would anyone have the time to make the horde
> of technologies this sort of society requires? 

PGP is here now, though of course no one uses it. PKI seems to be driven
by something, e-commerce maybe. Academics and corporate research are
looking for new and fun things to do with math. Sometimes they hire
students to implement those fun things. Sometimes other people read the
papers and implement the fun things themselves.

Where did anonymous remailers come from?

thanks, 
-David




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jan 21 09:36:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:36:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010121103458.5612R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > (1) - books on future worlds and spaces: in particular, those that explore 
> > > social, moral, political, technical, ethical issues (to be science fiction), 
> > > or those that merely explore worlds (to be fantasy)
> > 
> > I see the utility in fiction to tell us what is most likely not to happen.
> 
> "If I name a future, then it won't happen" - ? 
> 
> This reminds me of the view that SF writers are trying to "predict the
> future." I don't think picturing "the future" and then being "wrong" or
> "right" about that is what fiction is usually about. More often about
> commenting on the present. 

I'd say it's primarily about entertainment. Even if it's an intentional
social/technical commentary. There is also the point to be made that
society is effected more by those things which were unexpected (I don't
know if 'revolution' is the correct word here???) than evolutionary. The
change of electricity, the printing press, etc.

For some potential non-fictional ways to cast the problem:

The New Renaissance: Computers and the next level of civilization
D.S. Robertson
ISBN 0-19-512189-9

Technologies of knowing: A proposal for the human sciences
J. Willinsky
ISBN 0-8070-6106-9

Code and other laws of cyberspace
L. Lessig
ISBN 0-465-03912-x
 
> > 'defining good and bad'? Not possible, there are no absolute standards by
> > which to judge.
> 
> The definition would assert some standard by which to judge. Not
> necessarily grounded in any "absolute standard." You can reject that
> standard, of course, but there are still people trying to formulate and
> defend these standards.

But 'self-referential' is by no means equivalent to 'absolute'. As to your
last statement, I see we agree. The concept of 'good and bad' and any
consequent 'definitions' are a function of 'people'. It IS a relative
issue and therefore open to debate. This is a clear indicator that this
particular issue is not axiomatic. It is clearly an affect, no more.

> One effort in this direction which comes to mind is the "communtarian"
> approach applied to privacy by Amitai Etizoni. What I've heard of it I
> don't like, but I don't know much more than a few basic things -
> "community" above all, corporate invasions of privacy pure evil, state
> intrusions less evil because subject to scrutiny. 
> 
> To this you could oppose the sort of libertarian standard more often seen
> on cypherunks, with its familiar consequences. 

I've always considered 'communitarian' to be a branch of (wait for it),

socialism. It requires consistency of behaviour, down to the level of
trying to micro-manage individuals individual thoughts. Trying to reach
that utopian ESS of the human soul I suppose.

In defence of my criticism of ESS's applied to biology I offer (being a
dutiful Gaian Pantheist),

Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution
L. Margulis, D. Sagan (yes that Sagan, which should id that Margulis :)
ISBN 0-387-94927-5

> I am also reminded of the phrase "technology is neutral" and how it seems
> to polarize a debate. One side regards it as an argument that banning
> technology is misguided. The other side as evidence of total naivete. I
> don't suppose anyone has actually tried analysing where that phrase or
> "technical vs. social means" pops up?

The cosmos is certainly neutral. But since 'technology' exists only within
the context of a human society (ie humans build technology) trying to cast
that as 'neutral' (eg government funding & corporate research) is either
naive enthusiasm for reductionism or else intentional misdirection. I've
alwasy rankled at the concept that 'technical' and 'social' are not sides
of the same n-sided die called human psychology. Reductionism has its
place, it is not however, everyplace.

> Does this thing have connections to the outside world? To other PDAs
> within range? How much range? Who can you contact with this? Can you sell
> the results of your computation to others? 
> 
> Now if you were the only one with a PDA, maybe you could figure out a way
> to sell computation to other people just by doing arithmetic. Perform
> parlor tricks and pass yourself off as a calculator. But everyone has a
> PDA. So now you need to have skills...

<shrug> A lot of good questions I have no intention of answering :). Make
up your own set of rules, play them against each other...

If you find something interesting, share please.

> > Ugh. The thought of a community that is so paranoid it exist through
> > ubiquitous crypto is a bit self-contradictory I think. Who would you trust
> > to make the technology?
> 
> Who said anything about the community being paranoid? You can use
> cryptography to do new things beyond hiding data, you know. Probably the
> most pressing would be authentication and controlling the data presented
> to the world about you. Digital signatures and credentials.

There is a certain level of paranoia (recognition of a real threat
certainly qualifies as paranoia in my book) required to even conjure up
the concept of security and crypto as an instance...

Actually I susepect that society will advance to impliment crypto in the
background. It will be used to enforce the bounds of each indviduals
social boundaries. Yes, it does embody 'web-of-trust' but not as the only
or primary mechanism for society as a whole.

This again, is the reason I believe that the Open Source movement within
the context of Lessig's book has an opportunity to build a much more
humane and reasonable society. I also believe the odds are very low it
will come to pass. Human sollipsism.

> If this PKI stuff works, then in 50 years it won't be the paranoids that
> can exist only through ubiquitous crypto - it'll be *all* of us. Digital
> driver's licenses and all. (Thanks to VeriSign for that awful phrase). 

It'll work. But there are other factors which will be concommitent.
Consider the extension of the average human lifespan on insurance,
investment, business, etc. There are other factors at work which will
impact the society and the economy in a equally strong (potentialy much
stronger perhaps) but 'negative' way, and I don't mean bad, I mean in
opposite sign to way. These technologies are going to cause a period of
inflation, and that will cause various social and political changes, that
will be like nothing we've ever seen. This should limit the 'theoretical'
maximum change of technology over some reference (and arbitrary) period.
Once a new equilibrium is reached then there should be a rapid expansion
until the next 'big thing'. In our case the chance is there that we might
get to see it first person. It'd be like being alive when Guttenberg first
printed his book and surviving until today. What will be the effect on
'family' when 20 generations are alive and communicating at one time?
(coincidentally, there's a web-of-trust).

> Now you can go further and ask "what if a society had digital auction
> protools?" or "what if selling your CPU cycles was normal and easy?" 

I'm trying to get a Plan 9 network up and running to do just that now for 
Plan 9 users here in Austin. Offer a 'virtual community' workspace that
users can map into their personal namespace (ooh, another web-of-trust ;).

In support I offer,

Small Worlds: The dynamics of networks between order and randomness
D.J. Watts
ISBN 0-691-00541-9

Multi-agent Systems: An introduction to distributed AI
J. Ferber
ISBN 0-201-36048-9

If you're interested in using a OS that embodies a lot of the basic
requirements for distributed communities, distributed processing,
distributed file spaces, low level network encryption, distributed
anonymous remailers, distributed data havens, communal workspaces, 
etc. then check out Plan 9.

http://plan9.bell-labs.com

I also have a mailing list that is available,

Hangar 18

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18

> or "what if everyone knew about time-lock puzzles and time-release crypto
> and could use it in everyday life?" or "what if the elections went
> according to protocol X?" 

I believe the point would be that society would progress beyond the need
for such things. What this will engender will be a return to 'family' or
'zaibatsu' centered human societies. Economies based on competition won't
exist because each community will share the resources as required. It will
be a large barter commune. The interfaces between these 'arcologies' will
be very well defended and about the only place 'trade' will take place and
that will be through information exchange not the actual exchange of
goods. Why? Because each arcology will be self-suffient within the domain
of its ownings.

Remember you've got 20 generations alive at the same time. 'Family' is set
to return with a vengeance.

My guess is we've got a space of about 200 years to get off this mudball
and get out there. If we don't we'll drown in our own waste. The end
result will be that humans won't live on planets per se. And that's got
maybe 500 to a 1000 years to happen or else the proto-society will run out
of gas. The only real hope/good there is that pockets of humans will be
scattered about. That raises the odds of the phoenix arising.

>  > How would anyone have the time to make the horde
> > of technologies this sort of society requires? 
> 
> PGP is here now, though of course no one uses it. PKI seems to be driven
> by something, e-commerce maybe. Academics and corporate research are
> looking for new and fun things to do with math. Sometimes they hire
> students to implement those fun things. Sometimes other people read the
> papers and implement the fun things themselves.
> 
> Where did anonymous remailers come from?

But you're talking about developing a society, not a group of friends that
numbers in a few hundred...

I don't buy it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Jan 21 12:00:26 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:00:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <a05010404b690d21f7788@[207.111.241.171]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101211157030.29963-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> And such a story can segue nicely into a follow-up piece a few years 
> later, about the "Twilight of the Crypto Geeks" or about how Vietnam 
> War protestors are now making big bugs on Wall Street. Thesis, 
> Antithesis, Synthesis.

That would explain the rise of the biotech stocks.

Now if they would just start teaching the Mad Sciences in the schools
again.  We need more giant bugs with the brains of a great ape skittering
down the streets of Washington DC.  (Other than the congressmen.)

"Mad?? I'm not Mad! A little miffed maybe, but not *mad*! I am a miffed
scientist!"

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jan 21 11:23:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:23:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: A change of focus...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010121130027.5612W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Hangar 18 is a mailing list intended for Austin users of Plan 9.

I'm thinking of doing away with any sort of physical meet and also losing
the 'Austin' focus of Hangar 18. What I had in mind had several facets.

-	Institute 'virtual' meetings. At first this would be
	through an IRC server here on einstein under Linux. As soon as
	I can get a box running (#!?&@ 760XL!) I can impliment the same in
	Plan 9 (somebody has written an IRCd haven't they?).

	-	This has some technical challenges because to be really
		effective it must combine text, sound, video, etc.
		seamlessly. It should include some sort of 'whiteboard'
		that supports technical users by having embedded image
		processing and CAD capability (ala 3rd party loadable 
		application modules?)

	- 	I intend to allow other groups (eg Linux & crypto) to have
		channels on the server as well. Daily, weekly, and
		monthly scheduled events would be hosted on a web
		server.

-	A shared file space, the basis of a community.

	-	Consider a community library of mp3 data that was
		accessible to all.

	-	Newspaper morgue.

	-	A multi-media library.

-	A shared process space, the basis of distributed community
	services.

	-	distributed community e-cash protocols

	-	distributed and 'private' nameserver

	-	distributed mailing lists

	-	distributed anonymous remailers

	-	distributed data havens

	-	distributed IRC

- Other aspects and uses of Plan 9 in a 'real world' environment.

	- 	mobile access to ones 'home' workspace seamlessly

	-	process and filespace deamons to run on other OS'es
		to allow them to participate as a full peer.

	-	distributed robotics

	-	instrumentation and integration into real-time
		environments (Plan 9 isn't real-time)

	-	consider the distributed nature of Plan 9 and
		a grocery store or order entry business.

- I'd be interested in getting others to purchase 900MHz equipment
  in order to setup 'neighborhood' (hopefully city-wide) a 9600
  rf packet network (in the Austin area to start).

I'd be interested in hearing about some of your hopes for Plan 9. I'd also
like to ask you to pass this to anyone who might be interested. Plan 9 is
not necessarily a requirement.

More info (to join mailing list, haven't updated webpage on this yet),

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 16:36:55 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:36:55 -1000
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010121094520.00a74ca0@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121000140.00ccfab0@flex.com>
 <20010121042256.B24468@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121143146.00cd4780@flex.com>


At 09:47 AM 1/21/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >At 12:07 AM 1/21/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
 >
 >>It wasn't a right for the what, 40,000 in flint michigan, either, was it?
 >
 >It's called at-will employment: You keep your employer happy, you get your
 >job. (I'm starting to think you're not only very educated, but not very
 >educable. I'd love for you to prove me wrong; that would likely involve
 >refraining from mouthing off.)

I've encountered a number of people with education approaching, or beyond
their ability to comprehend.  They tend to be verbose, and nonsensical.

Take your statement above, for example.  I'm not only very educated, but 
not educable?  Well, knock me over with a feather.

As for what might be proved by remaining silent, fuck that.  Fuck you too.

Reese





From reeza at flex.com  Sun Jan 21 16:38:25 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:38:25 -1000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <20010121102607.A27440@cluebot.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121002454.00cc7470@flex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <F88pgTFur2iz2Mb1s7n00001064@hotmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120135746.5612K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010121042619.D24468@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010121002454.00cc7470@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121143813.00d0aa50@flex.com>


ROTFLMAO!!!

At 10:26 AM 1/21/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >
 >
 >On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:27:20AM -1000, Reese wrote:
 >> Take anything Declan says with a grain of salt, too - he leaves the "CDR"
 >> in the subject line.
 >
 >Yawn. Some things are not worth my time, and editing Choatisms is one
 >of those. Flaming him is slightly more rewarding, but ranks as
 >pleasures about as high as watching George W. Bush be inaugurated:
 >It's more interesting for the reaction than the substance.
 >
 >Similarly, if Reese is the best intellect that the cypherpunks list
 >offers nowadays, not only is that a damnable shame, but a strong
 >indicator that it's time to leave. Guess I'm starting to sound like Tim.
 >
 >-Declan




From eru1 at apexmail.com  Sun Jan 21 14:44:26 2001
From: eru1 at apexmail.com (eru1 at apexmail.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:44:26
Subject: FREE Offshore bank account and debit card!
Message-ID: <133.118860.120748@server01>


Hi,


Wishing you a happy and prosperous 2001!

Take a quick look at the Free Visa Card program.
They're giving away free Visa cards with free flight miles on any 
airline and paying MLM commissions to refer other Cardholders.
They pay out on a huge 10-level plan ($10 for the first level and 
$2 on the next nine).

You already know how many millions of dollars that kind of 
multiplication can generate. Nobody buys a thing. The money comes 
from the bank because of the value of cardholders. This thing is 
spreading like wildfire. Please check it out.

Request for info!
mailto:jona01 at excite.com?subject=Vinfo pls!

Regards.

................................................................
**This is a one-time mailing.  There is no need to remove 
yourself to stop further mailings.
 
 
 
 
 
 




From greyfox at globetrotter.net  Sun Jan 21 11:52:55 2001
From: greyfox at globetrotter.net (Bolduc)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:52:55 -0500
Subject: about...
Message-ID: <000a01c083e3$c0553b80$5866a98e@oemcomputer>

i would like to have easy bomb reciepe,please send me them.

thank you

                          call me GrayfoX

my private e-mail is grayfox002 at hotmail.com

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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sun Jan 21 13:11:12 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:11:12 -0500
Subject: This better be where to post anything up on the site!
References: <OE75jCRGryWtIIZS2TR000007c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A6B5064.3B99E5F3@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Lyle Richardson wrote:

> Yet Ireland was always English if you go far back enough, the First
> Irish where from England, the Irish Patron Saint, Patrick, was from
> England. Ireland was first properly civilised by the English and it
> goes on.

        Yea gods, what ignorant lamer garbage! "saint" patrick was some
asshole Catholic, who cares where he came from, he had nothing to do
with Gaelic civilization, just another bumfuck intruding papist sent
over to help destroy the glorius Celtic culture, and I'm glad you
mentioned the similarity to Native Americans becuase that's exactly what
transpired with the Beast of Rome imposed upon the Fair Isles by
successive waves of faggot frogs and dagos back 2000 years. What needs
be done is a Druidic rising of the clans, not just in Eirie, but on all
the Isles, with all the Celts, kicking the goddamened french-blooded
brits back to the continent once and for all, thus to bring about the
new Golden Dawn when Arthur will reign again with Meglin at his side.





From r_da7451 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 21 18:06:30 2001
From: r_da7451 at yahoo.com (r_da7451 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:06:30
Subject: I WAS BROKE!!! Now I Earn Thousands Monthly...Here's How...
Message-ID: <684.140724.703713@mail.netidea.com>


Really -- I WAS BROKE!!!  And not that long ago,
either.  Now I don't have to worry about money
ever again.  

Anyone can do what I'm doing and have success. 
I mean ANYONE!

What a difference that growing check for 
thousands of dollars every month makes! 

Find out how YOU can take advantage of this 
GREAT idea. I'll help you personally!  

Visit my web page and get your free membership, 
with no obligation

mailto:ragstworiches2006 at yahoo.com?Subject=Tell_Me_How

I'm thousands of dollars ahead every month now
and  I'm enjoying sharing this with others.  It's just
the right thing to do!

I encourage you to take this seriously. 
I did, and now I'll never be broke again!

Am I happy?  You bet!

Visit my web page now.  :-)

Best wishes to you and yours..

Karl
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From capnetn at FQEN.netscape.net  Sun Jan 21 19:16:33 2001
From: capnetn at FQEN.netscape.net (capnetn at FQEN.netscape.net)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:16:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How To Pay Off Loans Fast! -LPVR
Message-ID: <200101220316.TAA04573@toad.com>


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From lyle87 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 21 11:35:08 2001
From: lyle87 at hotmail.com (Lyle Richardson)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:35:08 -0000
Subject: This better be where to post anything up on the site!
Message-ID: <OE75jCRGryWtIIZS2TR000007c4@hotmail.com>

I disagree with what many say is the "Illegal Occupation" of Northern Ireland. England conquered Ireland over 800 years ago, just like the USA conquered the Indians of the Great Plains. What i'm getting at is that Countries Conquer.

Yet Ireland was always English if you go far back enough, the First Irish where from England, the Irish Patron Saint, Patrick, was from England. Ireland was first properly civilised by the English and it goes on.

People say the Army should pull out, well if they where never sent in, the troubles would have been long over! The Loyalists had "republicans and nationalists" on the run and would have kept Ulster or NI totally British, it was the Amry that was sent in to "protect" the Irish that stopped Loyalists and Unionists from winning the "war" in NI!

People seem oblivious to the fact that the "minority" cause the trouble in NI! What aboout in Corsica and Sardinia that have a MAJORITY that want independance from Italy and France, what about the Catalonia Region of Spain and the Basque they want Independance but no you never hear about it!

The IRA, ETA (Basque group) and other republican groups are a bit left wing paramilitary or in otherwords slightly communist and even if NI was given back to the republic, the IRA will want control of ALL of Ireland! They would have a bigger army than the Irish Republic have and so could beat them (like they almost done in the Irish Civil War around 1922, which was when it had already got independance in the south).

One final thing, if Ireland was reunited (pray to God it doesn't, for the safety of the Irish), the Loyalist Paramilitaries will go mad bombing anywhere they like as its the Irish money that is going to be used to rebuild almost everything, killing many more people and also will be demanding Independance FROM Ireland, and as the irish army do not have the money or resources to really prevent them, like the British could (the SAS should have been effective if used!) and the troubles in Ulster will go on, till all Catholics there are dead or all Protestants are!

Remember 1690! Londonderry, remember NO SURRENDER!
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From lists at politechbot.com  Sun Jan 21 18:16:48 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:16:48 -0500
Subject: Bush's whitehouse.gov launches with embarrassing errors, bugs
Message-ID: <20010121211648.C476@cluebot.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41319,00.html

   Anybody Home at Whitehouse.gov?
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   4:00 p.m. Jan. 21, 2001 PST
   
   WASHINGTON -- President Bush not only got the keys to the White House
   this weekend, but he also took over the official whitehouse.gov
   website.
   
   While the new president's speedily organized inaugural celebration
   concluded without incident in a chill rain, the launch of the Bush
   administration's Web presence was not as successful.
   
   Dozens of links return error messages, and the home page appears to
   have sported an unusual slogan on the left-hand rail when it first
   went up on Saturday: "Insert Something Meaningful Here."
   
   At high noon on Saturday, as Bush and Vice President Cheney took oaths
   of office on the Capitol building steps, the new administration
   officially took over the whitehouse.gov domain.
   
   Many of the text-only whitehouse.gov pages, designed for readers who
   are visually impaired or have low-bandwidth connections, return broken
   links. Clicking on the text-only option from the search page results
   in a malformed link with the title:
   "www.whitehouse.gov/--%20INTERFACE%20LINK%20."

   Links at the bottom of the White House History page -- including past
   first families, first ladies, or tour information -- return "404: The
   page cannot be found".
   
   In the children's area of whitehouse.gov, the Historic Moments page
   includes broken links to images of Abraham Lincoln and Franklin
   Roosevelt.

   On the home page, the placeholder message "Insert Something Meaningful
   Here" briefly appeared on the left side of the screen, according to a
   Wired News reader who saved a screen snapshot. The message, according
   to the snapshot, appeared under "President George W. Bush is
   Inaugurated as President of the United States" and above "Recent
   Additions."
   
   [...]

Remainder at:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41319,00.html

Snapshot of "insert something meaningful here" (also submitted by other
readers):
http://www.brianwestbrook.com/whitehousegov.html

Examples of pages with broken links:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/text/moments.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/tours/text/map.html

Or, for example, click on "text only" from the search page:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/search




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----- End forwarded message -----




From Gagler at Gagler.com  Sun Jan 21 19:23:02 2001
From: Gagler at Gagler.com (Gagler)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:23:02 -0600
Subject: Unsubscribe broken while you spam this address
References: <200101220118.RAA14632@dns.sersol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c08422$a1009ba0$8c011942@houston.rr.com>


Which one of our 8 lists could you not followthe instructions?

Thanks-

Gagler

----- Original Message -----
From: <cypherpunks at toad.com>
To: <problems at gagler.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 12:00 AM
Subject: Unsubscribe broken while you spam this address


> Your unsubscribe process, both the web page and the email
process are
> broken.  STOP SPAMMING THIS ADDRESS!!!
>
> SPAM IS THEFT OF SERVICE, NETWORK ABUSE, AND TRESPASSING!!!
>
> GO AWAY!!!!
>
> The next complaint goes to Paul Vixie at the MAPS Realtime
Blackhole List
> (RBL) and your upstream ISP's.
>
>




From weidai at eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 21:50:41 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:50:41 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:02:32AM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010120155227.5612L-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <20010121215040.A25543@eskimo.com>


It's strange that there are so few science fiction books that talk about
cryptography at all, except maybe at a very low level of detail and
sophistication. The only book I can remember that even mentions public-key
cryptography is Vernor Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Does anyone have
other examples?




From rguerra at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 21 19:21:46 2001
From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:21:46 -0500
Subject: Update About D.I.R.T. & email problems
Message-ID: <p05001902b69155fb42cb@[64.230.41.154]>



--- begin forwarded text


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Gober" <gobert at letu.edu>
To: "Lee Keohan" <leepk at surfbest.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 13:05
Subject: Re: [utmf] D.I.R.T. & email problems


i heard about that (DIRT)... i also heard its just a big hoax. Most 
anything of that nature will be shot down by the hacking community. 
Kinda like Carnivore. but anytime you're ever suspicious of anything 
"hacking" your system just drop by astalavista.box.sk and visit their 
new0rder section... you can have the anti-hack in just a few 
seconds... or goto eeye.com and get a copy of Retina Security 
scanner... it'll tell you exactly what your computer is saying to 
others and whether or not you're hackable. very nice tool to have if 
you're worried about security.


                              D.I.R.T. in the News

                Codex files 20 million dollar defamation suit
                             in U.S.Federal Court
                                pressrelease.txt
                               pressrelease.doc
                                  CDSsuit.pdf

     D.I.R.T. premieres June 5, 1998 at SpookTech98 in New York City

                          Network World - July 1998

                               DIRT Bugs Strike!
                              By Winn Schwartau

  "Imagine being able to monitor and intercept data from any PC in the
                           world anytime you want.

                             Then DIRT's for you.
DIRT stands for Data Interception by Remote Transmission, and if 
Codex Data Systems in Bardonia, New York has anything to say about 
it, will become the next law enforcement tool to help stop the bad 
guys.

  The cops are having a terrifically hard time dealing with 
cybercrime, and they all put on-line child pornography at the top of 
the list because of the emotional response to it. Suspected 
terrorists, drug traffickers, money launderers, are also potential 
targets for DIRT as are various criminal organizations which employ 
anonymity, remote control and encryption to hide themselves. DIRT 
represents a fabulous, but questionably legal/ethical means of 
information gathering by intelligence agencies as well as private 
investigators.


Thus Frank Jones and Codex Data Systems begat DIRT. "We have to give 
law enforcement the tools they need to get real criminals. So many of 
them are now using encryption, DIRT allows law enforcement to read 
encrypted messages."

DIRT operates surreptitiously like a Trojan Horse. It is transmitted 
secretly to a target via email in several ways: either as a 
proprietary protocol, self extracting executable, dummy segment 
fault, hidden ZIP file, application specific weakness, macro, a 
steganographic attachment or other methods the company's technical 
wizard, Eric Schneider will not divulge.

Once the DIRT-Bug is successfully embedded in the target machine, two 
things occur. One, all keystrokes at the keyboard are secretly 
captured and when the target machine is connected on-line, it will 
stealthily transmit the captured
contents to a remotely located DIRT-Control Central for analysis. 
This is how encryption keys are to be discovered and later used to 
develop evidence in criminal cases.

Secondly, when the target is on-line, his PC will invisibly behave 
like an anonymous FTP server, giving the folks at DIRT-Control Center 
100% access to all resources. So much for privacy!

Dave Banisar Staff Counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information 
Center in Washington, DC. said DIRT "Sounds like something the Stasi 
would have developed." The problem is enforcement and abuse he points 
out. "The only way to control this technology is after the fact, 
during the trial when the police have to show how they obtained 
evidence."

When I first saw DIRT demonstrated in New York (June 5, 1998), I 
thought, "What if this gets out to the entire Internet community. 
what will happen if we no longer ever trust our email?"

The vast majority of computer crime goes unrecognized, unreported and 
unprosecuted. Despite the fact that the use of DIRT or a DIRT-like 
clone developed by the computer underground violates the Computer 
Abuse Act of 1984 and an assortment of other laws, the ability to 
control it remains extremely slim. And the uses for DIRT-like 
software stagger the imagination.

All that someone with DIRT needs to know is your email address. 
Period. All he has to do is send you an email, with the embedded 
DIRT-Trojan Horse and he's home free, and you are a clueless victim.

Large organizations usually worry about hackers breaking and entering 
their networks. Now they have reason to worry that DIRT-Bugs could 
invade their networks as well; whether launched by an investigating 
law enforcement authority, international competitors or spies, or 
just hackers. The last thing in the world they want is for critical 
workstations to be broadcasting passwords, encryption codes and 
providing complete system access to whoever controls DIRT-Central.

Unfortunately, most firms with whom I deal have little implementation 
of the minor policies they have developed. Thus, defending against 
DIRT can be difficult. However, organizations which utilize NAT and 
proxies in their firewalls achieve some degree of confidence that 
DIRT's remote access capability will not function. Just the keyboard 
strokes (and associated private information) will be broadcast to 
DIRT-Central.

According to the developers at Codex Data Systems, if you are a 
solitary PC sitting on a dial-up or a cable modem, there is nothing - 
today - you can do except don't click on your email attachments. Of 
course, ignoring email from strangers is always a good idea. But, if 
I were a cop or a bad guy using DIRT, I would certainly go after your 
home PC as well as the one at work. It's a whole lot easier, and I am 
going to learn just as much.

With the advent of more and more powerful Trojans, such as DIRT 
(which only occupies 20K), the threat to our networked systems gets 
clearer and clearer. As Frank Jones, the inventor says, "There are no 
more secrets with DIRT."

                            TechWeek - Sept. 1998

                         Beware the Keystroke Cops
                              by Sarah Ellerman

                          Getting DIRT on criminals

"There is another powerful tool for surreptitiously intercepting 
data, but it is only available to law enforcement and the military. 
Called DIRT (Data Interception and Remote Transmission), it was 
released in June by Codex Data Systems, Inc. Investigators need only 
know your e-mail address to secretly install the program. Once they 
do, investigators can read your documents, view your images, download 
your files and intercept your encryption keys. DIRT was developed to 
assist law enforcement in pedophilia investigations, but future uses 
could include drug investigations, money laundering cases and 
information warfare.

How is DIRT different from Back Orifice? The sale of DIRT is 
restricted, while Back Orifice is

free for the downloading. Also, there are already fixes available for 
Back Orifice, but no way yet to defend against DIRT. "

Most feel secure when they encrypt their data, but it's an illusion 
of comfort if a keystroke monitor is involved. DIRT defeated Pretty 
Good Privacy in a matter of minutes at a recent conference simply by 
stealing the user's key as it was typed in."

Internet & Intranet Business & Technology Report - Oct. 1998

D.I.R.T. - The Ultimate Competitive Intelligence Tool by Deb Cameron

"Codex Data Systems, Inc. of New York has created Data Interception 
for Remote Transmission (DIRT), a surveillance tool designed for law 
enforcement professionals. DIRT is similar to BO in some respects, 
but it is smaller (less than 18K versus 120K for BO) and yet more 
stealthy. It runs as a much lower level process and is virtually 
undetectable. In addition, it cannot be stopped by firewalls.

DIRT was originally developed to aid in the investigation of child 
pornographers and other isolated criminals using standalone PCs. By 
becoming a spy in the user's computer, the law enforcement official 
can gather needed evidence to successfully prosecute a criminal case. 
Frank Jones, creator of DIRT, surveyed the market for computer 
surveillance tools to aid law enforcement professionals. When he 
found no suitable products, he began developing DIRT, which he 
continues to enhance.

DIRT logs all keystrokes on the target workstation and transmits them 
the next time that system is online. Because users type in their 
encryption pass phrases at the keyboard, which are then transmitted 
via DIRT, the product helps law enforcement officials decrypt 
documents and provides them with substantial evidence for criminal 
investigations. All DIRT communications are encrypted on their way 
back to the DIRT Control Center, protecting them in case they are 
intercepted by a random system administrator.

In the latest version of DIRT, the agency need not send the software 
as an e-mail message at all; the law enforcement agency needs only 
the e-mail address or the IP address of the target system. (At the 
very least, the variety of techniques described here should make 
users wary of dismissing the idea that a third party could install 
software without their knowledge.)

DIRT currently runs on Windows 95, 98, and NT systems and a Unix 
version is being developed. Only qualified law enforcement agencies 
can purchase DIRT; furthermore, Codex currently sells the software 
only to U.S. law enforcement agencies.

Jones emphasizes that surreptitious surveillance tools, such as Back 
Orifice and keystroke logging facilities, are illegal to develop or 
possess in the United States, according to U.S. code 2512. These 
tools are illegal even if they are used by network administrators 
unless each end user explicitly agrees to the monitoring.

DIRT is legal because it is a law enforcement tool that can only be 
sold to law enforcement agencies. DIRT itself is not a threat to the 
average corporate network, but the knowledge that such a tool exists 
should make users consider whether their networks are secure. 
Security is clearly a relative term, and organizations ignore 
security issues at their own risk."

Detailed Info & Pricing on D.I.R.T. ?

Sale of this technology is restricted to military, government and law 
enforcement agencies only... For additional information we require a 
written request on official letterhead signed by an authorized 
official...

Codex Data Systems, Inc. will be happy to provide a demonstration to 
any authorized agency



                          Codex Data Systems, Inc.
                                 167 Route 304
                       Bardonia, New York 10954 USA
                               Tel: 914-627-0011
                               Fax: 914-627-0211

-- 

--
Robert Guerra <rguerra at yahoo.com>, Fax: +1(303) 484-0302
WWW Page <http://pgp.greatvideo.com>, ICQ # 10266626
PGPKeys  <http://pgp.greatvideo.com/keys/rguerra/>




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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:47:32 -0800
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From weidai at eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 00:07:23 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:07:23 -0800
Subject: The Cypherpunk Movement by St. Jude
Message-ID: <20010122000723.A18245@eskimo.com>


This is a repost of the story by St. Jude that David Molnar mentioned
earlier. I found a copy of it at
http://www.wps.com/FidoNet/source/Fido-FidoNet/Fido-pre-12/chador.TXT. I'm
also archiving a copy of it at
http://www.weidai.com/the-cypherpunk-movement.txt for anyone
who wants to link to it.

Original Message Date: 25 Sep 92 03:06:35
From: Uucp on 1:125/555
To: Tom Jennings on 1:125/111
Subj: secretions
^AINTL 1:125/111 1:125/555
>From  kumr!well.sf.ca.us!stjude
From: stjude at well.sf.ca.us (Judith Milhon)
To:   cypherpunks at toad.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 03:01:26 -0700



"The alternative to mutual trust, which is indeed a risky gamble, is the
security of the police state."
                -- Alan Watts
   
This text may be published in MONDO2000 as my regular column, Irresponsible
Journalism. Eric Hughes suggested the coda with the toad address, adding
that it would be amusing to have it almost completely blotted by magic
marker, as if inadequately censored.

I don't want to be the venom in this toad. <I'd like to be one of the
jewels
it wears in its head -- I can't quote that precisely, but it's something
like, "the venomous toad, which yet in its head wears a precious
jewel"...>
the idea is to draw in other useful minds. we can assume the WRONG PEOPLE
already know the address.

lady ada won't apologize for the gonzo wrapping for the ideas; she is
concerned only that they be correct and clearly stated. clarifications,
expansions, corrections are welcome. also abuse and threats, for that
matter... any feedback, please feed me...


THE CYPHERPUNK MOVEMENT
by St. Jude

I don't face-to-face all that much.  And I don't like clubs.  I was in the
Black Hole for a reason: The Screamin' Memes were in town for one night
only -- Thursday, of course.  Thursday's the night, now that the weekend
has annexed Fri. and Mon.  I was lurking in the back, hoping not to see
anybody, when the Jones brothers staked me out.  Damn.  They are deep into
the street drugs.  Keeping up with the Joneses is nigh impossible; their
most trivial chitchat is an exercise in decryption.  Eddy -- or maybe he
was being Ellis that night -- was implying something about somebody when my
right foot detonated down to its steel toe.  I looked up -- way up -- to a
face that wasn't there at all.  Just a dome of black cloth, with goggles.
Three-eyed goggles.  Ah: a Chador.  I'd heard of that.  I screamed: "You
stomped my foot FLAT!"
   "Sorry."  "Are you okay?"  "Oh maaaang."  Many overlapping voices, all
of them synthesized, blurted from above.  Out of two tiny speakers hanging
like earrings off a basketweave headband like a cop's belt.  The head
bowed, bringing it almost within biting range.
   "Gah.  Ow.  Ooo."  Pretending to be demented with pain, I lurched deep
into the Chador.  But I was cool: I was rootling in there for clues.  Ha!
Male pheromones.  Hardish male torso.  I was jostling this lumpy equipment
hanging off him, trying to get a good feel of it without alerting him.  Nuh
uh: _I_ meant electronics... what did _you_ think?  Okay: I had some data
to work with.  Male with gadgets.  Quelle surprise.
        "What the hell have you got on your feet?  HORSESHOES?"
        A voice like rushing water: "Kothurni."  The Chador shifted a
little...
and under his full black skirts I saw them: big weighted club-foot boots
with concealed lifts, to disguise the wearer's height.  Wicked. 
   The pain and the espionage cleared my head.  I was ready to deal.
   "So you're protecting your meat identity, right?"
   The Chador seemed to teeter a little.  It goggled down at me as if I
were a smear on a slide.  Its third-eye goggle was a lens.  Check.  Out of
the ambient murk loomed another Chador.  Exactly the same height.  Right.
   "How come you guys are in full drag?"
   "We're here for a... uh... party."  The voice from the other Chador was
a flanged saxophone, but I could swear it had a Texas accent.
   "Rubbish.  You're having a cell meeting, right?  "
   The near Chador, the one I had groped, seemed to teeter again.  What
sounded like a tape player on fast-forward came faintly from its interior.
An earphone? 
   The saxophone honked:  "If I said I even understood what you meant, what
kind of a chump would that make me?" 
   "I could hazard a guess.  I think you're cryptoanarchists -- what I'd
call cypherpunks!"
   My Chador cracked up.  I could tell.  The farther one seemed to stiffen;
I think it was giving me a hate stare.  Hard to manage behind the whole 9
yards o' cloth. 
   "Is that clever or what?  I'm onto you like psilocybe on cowshit, dudes.
You want to take over the world.  Haha hahaha haaaaa."
   Both of them rocked back a little.  I went in after them. "You want to
talk encryption schemes?  Let's talk cryptic.  Tales from the cryp'ed.  But
make it fast: The Memes are comin' on."  Oh, I was bluffing.  I don't know
much about cryptography.  I was just 'tuding them from tech envy.  Damn:
Chadors.  And me without the first widget.
   From the far guy came a cello, very suave: "The world has already been
taken over.  You may have noticed this.  We're just trying to get some of
it back."  And the accent was -- Dutch?
   Bob's yr uncle.  Gotcha.  I hadn't been certain.  Maybe chadors were now
trendy club gear -- what do I know?  "Hey -- that cello's another guy?  How
many you PACKIN' in there?"
   Out of my Chador a sawtooth rasped:  "Variable.  People are ringing in
and out."
   "You're on line?"
   "This is a bridge.  International."  Sawtooth again.
   The cello resumed, an annoyed cello:  "We don't believe in takeovers.
In fact, we are working to make things UNTAKEOVERABLE."
   A theremin quivered, "And to make the world safe for anarchy.  _We want
the air-waves, baby_."  It snickered across many frequencies.
   The Tejana saxophone chuckled, (and an eerie treat that was, too):
"Problem is, how to guarantee privacy for pseudonyms.  So you can have a
pseudonymous economy."
   A toad croaked: "So, full-RSA encrypted EVERYTHING.  No back doors.
Secure digital money.  Swiss bank accounts for the millions."
   The theremin: "A global monetary system that makes governments obsolete.
Down come the governments.  Goodbye the feds."  It sang, whoopingly: "BYE
BYE, LAWWww."  Horrible broad-band snickering.
   The toad croaked: "Er... yes.  Real freedom of speech, too.
Libertech!"
   The Dutch cello was all business: "Okay, what does it take?  You need
real-time protocols to prove you own your pseudonym.  And your pseudonyms
have online reputations, via people you've done biz with -- like a
distributed credit rating system.  With maybe designated angels -- Fair
Witnesses."
   I was charmed.  "And you wear the chador when you face-to-face somebody
who knows your handle!" 
   The theremin wheeped: "Actually, unmasking your real identity could be
the ultimate collateral -- your killable, _torturable_ body.  Even without
kids, you've got a hostage to fortune -- your own meat."
   I was reeling.  "Oh yas yas.  As Dylan said: 'They asked me for some
collateral/ and I pulled down my pants'."
   Orchestral chuckles rained down on me.  Was I an international hit?
   But at that exact moment The Memes hit the stage.  The crowd did a 9.1
Richter lurch and the other Chador pitched onto my LEFT toe, maybe denting
the steel.
   "AAIEEeeee.  That's great COVERT GEAR you got there, guys.  You couldn't
sneak up on Helen Keller in a HAILSTORM."  I was trying to spin down.  "And
dudes -- this is not the neighborhood for flashing the hardware.  Getting
rolled by winos is pretty LOW TECH."
   A spike-knuckled glove slithered out of the farther guy, clutching what
looked, in the near-dark, like an electric razor.  "_Gonna menace 'em with
a clean shave_?"
   The sax: "Stunner.  Bottom of the line.  But."  A hot line of pure
energy cracked across its little trodes.  Of course.
   Rushing water: "See ya."  And they did a fade into the smoke.

   The Screamin' Memes were worthless.  To hell with clubs.  To hell with
lots o' things, maybe.  I am now sensing my roots, mahn; dey who are my
bredren.  Nerds.  
   Nerds as mainstreamed by the grainy but still fetching Robt Redford in
Sneakers...  Nerds who will have their revenge at last, by making the
online realer than our current regrettable reality...  No, I'm not quite
delusional.  I've heard the cypherpunks are already distributing their
encrypted email software, which is quick and slick.  I might even join the
revolution, which is, heh, already in progress.  
   Yeah.  Why not?  Give me libertech or give me... _DES_? 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
St. Jude, aka Lady Ada Lovelace, wrote "The Spook in the Machine" for MONDO
#1, describing the enforcement of DES, the Data Encryption Scam with the
handy backdoor.  She can be reached online as stjude at well.sf.ca.us.  Note:
a definitely false rumor is now circulating that the revolutionists can be
contacted via cypherpunks at toad.com.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

feed me?

>jude<





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan 22 00:10:45 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:10:45 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220055540.402-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220055540.402-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010406b6919786d8c9@[207.111.241.171]>


At 1:07 AM -0500 1/22/01, dmolnar wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Wei Dai wrote:
>
>>  It's strange that there are so few science fiction books that talk about
>>  cryptography at all, except maybe at a very low level of detail and
>>  sophistication. The only book I can remember that even mentions public-key
>
>It's also strange that there are relatively few science fiction books
>which talk about math. There are some noted short story collections (_The
>Mathematical Magpie_ and its sequel), short stories (Asimov's story about
>rediscovering "graphitics," Heinlein's "And He Built A Crooked House"),
>and authors (Rudy Rucker), but nowhere near the volume of SF based on
>physics.

Erik Nylund has at least two novels which are centered around 
mathematics: "Signal to Noise" and "A Signal Shattered." The novels 
by Zindell which I mentioned this morning are also mathcentric.

A collection of math SF and fantasy stories I read as a kid had a big 
influence on me. I don't recall the name of the collection, but it 
included some of Arthur C. Clarke's "Tales from the White Hart" 
stories involving a Moebius strip wall, for example. And a story 
about the Devil making a bet with a mathematician, and the bet 
involves Fermat's Last Theorem. The Devil ends up being hooked by the 
problem.

There's a good reason more SF stories are centered around physics. 
Reductionism aside, hysics is what gives us space ships, interstellar 
travel, colonies on other worlds, etc. The stories centered around 
math tend to be "gimmicky," like the "And He Built a Crooked House" 
story Dave mentions.

And most of the "physics" in most SF novels is of the most simplistic 
sort, e.g., nuclear reactors (in some old 40s stories), hyperspace 
(with the hoary "imagine two dots on this handkerchief" explanations 
such as we find in "Starman Jones" and dozens of other such novels). 
(And this handkerchief explanation of "jumps" is really more akin to 
Riemannian geometry and topology than to actual physics, so it 
arguably qualifies as "math."

Most of the physics is gotten through in a couple of paragraphs. 
Probably about the same coverage math gets. But the artifacts created 
with physics tend to be central players in novels and stories--being 
the space ships and lunar colonies and the like--and so the 
impression is natural that physics plays a larger role than math in 
SF.

Heinlein frequently threw in references to tensor calculus, log 
tables, slipsticks, etc.


--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan 22 00:29:28 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:29:28 -0800
Subject: REAL assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101181155100.19117-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101181155100.19117-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <p04320419b6919f278cc2@[10.1.1.42]>


>On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>
>>from fas:
>>
>>
>>ASSASSINATION POLITICS
>>
>>In a new bill introduced in the House of Representatives on January 3, Rep.
>>Bob Barr proposed to eliminate the longstanding official prohibition
>>against assassination.
>
>
>Ew, ick.
>
>This seems to be devolving to the level of "Fear and Loathing".
>
>Don't these clowns realize where political assassination goes
>once it gets started?  Do they just not read history books?

	I don't know, maybe it will thin the herd a little bit.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan 22 00:38:30 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:38:30 -0800
Subject: Banned MI6 Book
In-Reply-To: <200101182306.SAA10277@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101182306.SAA10277@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p0432041ab691a1e731f8@[10.1.1.42]>


>Ex-MI6 officer Richard Tomlinson's book, "The Big Breach:
>From Top Secret To Maximum Security," is available for
>order on a Russian Web site:
>
>    http://www.thebigbreach.com
>

	It also seems to be available at spAmazon.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From weidai at eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 00:50:45 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:50:45 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220055540.402-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:07:20AM -0500
References: <20010121215040.A25543@eskimo.com> <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220055540.402-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <20010122005045.B18245@eskimo.com>


On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:07:20AM -0500, dmolnar wrote:
> The obvious one would be Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_. I wonder if Greg
> Egan has written anything in this vein; he seems to have interests in
> computer science, and he even had an alternate history/worldline
> travelling story about Turing in Asimov's last year ("Oracle").

I've read almost all of Greg Egan's novels and collections, and don't
recall anything that talks about cryptography. Here's a link to the
Oracle story, btw:
http://www.netspace.net.au/~gregegan/MISC/ORACLE/Oracle.html.




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Jan 21 22:07:20 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:07:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <20010121215040.A25543@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220055540.402-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Wei Dai wrote:

> It's strange that there are so few science fiction books that talk about
> cryptography at all, except maybe at a very low level of detail and
> sophistication. The only book I can remember that even mentions public-key

It's also strange that there are relatively few science fiction books
which talk about math. There are some noted short story collections (_The
Mathematical Magpie_ and its sequel), short stories (Asimov's story about
rediscovering "graphitics," Heinlein's "And He Built A Crooked House"),
and authors (Rudy Rucker), but nowhere near the volume of SF based on
physics.

Perhaps it's that there are fewer people familiar with math than with
physics - which leads to fewer people writing such fiction and a smaller
market for it. The same is true for crypto, except more so. 

> cryptography is Vernor Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_. Does anyone have
> other examples?

The obvious one would be Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_. I wonder if Greg
Egan has written anything in this vein; he seems to have interests in
computer science, and he even had an alternate history/worldline
travelling story about Turing in Asimov's last year ("Oracle").

-David




From Anymouse  Mon Jan 22 01:05:45 2001
From: Anymouse (Anymouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 04:05:45 -0500
Subject: Globalization Divide special videobridge (Davos and Porto Alegre)
Message-ID: <mailman.354.1576007491.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

"THE GLOBALIZATION DIVIDE is a special videobridge, an interactive television
program linking Davos, Switzerland and Porto Alegre, Brazil, during the World
Economic and the World Social Forums (January 25-30, 2001). The two events,
planned in parallel, will be articulating two different visions of globalization
and its effects:/"
http://www.attac.org/live/indexen.htm

"The new century is starting in Porto Alegre. All kinds of people, each in their
own ways, have been contesting and critiquing neo-liberal globalisation, and
many of them will be gathering in this southern Brazilian city on 25-30 January
for the first World Social Forum (1). This time they won't just be protesting -
as they were in Seattle, Washington, Prague and elsewhere - against the
world-wide injustices, inequalities and disasters created by the excesses of
capitalism (see the article by Bernard Cassen). This time, in a positive and
constructive spirit, they will be working towards creating a practical and
theoretical framework for a new kind of globalisation. They are fired by a
belief in the possibility of a new world that is less inhumane, more inclined to
solidarity."
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/en/2001/01/01portoalegre

"For decades, these international financial institutions have been making
decisions that affect the lives of people all over the world, without being
subject to any sort of democratic control. People in Third World countries, as
well as the poor and excluded sectors of industrialized countries suffer the
devastating effects of economic globalization and the dictatorship of
international institutions such as the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO and the
governments that serve their interests.
We need to continue pressuring these institutions to be accountable to our
societies. Similarly, our governments must be made aware that this oversight
will be exercised with increasing intensity over their actions. Many of us have
struggled in our own countries, regions, or cities, thinking that we were
isolated. Recently, we have begun to realize that together we can constitute a
planetary archipelago of resistance. The World Social Forum represents a new
opportunity toward the construction of an international counter-power."
http://attac.org/geneve2000/textes/doc/fsmen.htm

Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
I, myself, like Butterflies
flapping their wings.





From sary.sary at libertysurf.fr  Mon Jan 22 03:32:30 2001
From: sary.sary at libertysurf.fr (Sary)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 06:32:30 -0500
Subject: EDTJ2000
Message-ID: <3A6C1556.E8686FB7@libertysurf.fr>


http://www.edtj2000.com/mail.asp
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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan 22 05:32:08 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:32:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220055540.402-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122071914.5612g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> It's also strange that there are relatively few science fiction books
> which talk about math. There are some noted short story collections (_The
> Mathematical Magpie_ and its sequel), short stories (Asimov's story about
> rediscovering "graphitics," Heinlein's "And He Built A Crooked House"),
> and authors (Rudy Rucker), but nowhere near the volume of SF based on
> physics.
> 
> Perhaps it's that there are fewer people familiar with math than with
> physics - which leads to fewer people writing such fiction and a smaller
> market for it. The same is true for crypto, except more so. 

Start with,

Mathenauts: Tales of Mathematical Wonder
ed. Rudy Rucker
ISBN 0-87795-891-2
     0-87795-890-4 (pbk.)

Stories by,

Rucker, Asimov, Kagan, Bear, Berman, Dnieprov, Gardner, Watson, Cramer,
Zebrowski, Hofstadter, Sakers, Orr, Laidlaw, Sheckley, Gross, Pohl, &
Benford.

There was supposed to be a second volume, don't know if it ever saw the
light of day...

Most of Ruckers fiction is related to math/physics,

Spacetime Donuts
White Light (What is Cantor's Continuum Problem?)
The Fifty-sixth Franz Kafka
The Sex Sphere
Master of Space and Time

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan 22 05:36:08 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:36:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Inferno: Globalization Divide special videobridge (Davos and Porto Alegre) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122073348.5612h-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


---------- Forwarded message ----------


From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan 22 05:38:54 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:38:54 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Gun 'fingerprints' found in Georgia lawman's murder - January 21, 2001
Message-ID: <3A6C37EE.D84D36B4@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/01/21/atlanta.sheriff/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jburnes at savvis.net  Mon Jan 22 07:29:37 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:29:37 -0600
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119224743.5612M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010119224743.5612M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <01012209293700.22281@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Friday 19 January 2001 22:50, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time. We do it to our pets
> > when teaching them a lesson. Why should cops be any different?
>
> You fucking self-centerd ego-maniacal animal abuser. You NEVER have to use
> fear with pets. If you have to use fear it is your failing, not the pets.
> Do the animal a favor get rid of the pet, you're not fit for it.
>
> I hope the next time you use fear on your pets somebody comes along and
> teaches you the lesson, a 2x4 up your ass seems suitable.
>
> Do your kids a favor, don't have any.
>

damn, choate.  Remember? Your pills!

jim




From jburnes at savvis.net  Mon Jan 22 07:42:58 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:42:58 -0600
Subject: Reno rocks out
In-Reply-To: <200101210638.BAA11111@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
References: <200101210638.BAA11111@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <01012209425802.22281@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Sunday 21 January 2001 00:38, George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
> #
> #    Twenty years ago was when the "3081"/Sierra version of the 370
> #    architecture was out. Not a small machine compared to others.
>
> Twenty years ago a 370/115 was a 16-bitter.
>
>
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
> #
> #    When I was standing on a sidewalk in front of the federal courthouse
> on #    Pennsylvania Ave (of Monicagate and Microsoft trial fame), a deputy
> U.S. #    Marshal told me I could not take a photo of the courthouse.
>
> For the first time, the inauguration was designated a "National Security
> Event."
>
> ----
>
> Heh. Reno showed up on SNL tonight, sketch "Reno's Dance Party."
>
> She burst through a "brick" wall to confront Will Ferrel, who was
> impersonating her in a blue dress.
>
> You could tell she was itching to dance...she was a shakin'.

I have a pretty decent sense of humor, but when I saw this it filled
me with revulsion.

They should have shown her dancing with effigies of charred corpses.

That would have been appropo.

jim




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan 22 10:04:33 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:04:33 -0800
Subject: Reno rocks out
In-Reply-To: <200101210638.BAA11111@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010122100433.009f6770@idiom.com>


At 01:38 AM 1/21/01 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote:
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>#    
>#    When I was standing on a sidewalk in front of the federal courthouse on
>#    Pennsylvania Ave (of Monicagate and Microsoft trial fame), a deputy U.S.
>#    Marshal told me I could not take a photo of the courthouse.
>
>For the first time, 
>the inauguration was designated a "National Security Event."

Unfortunately, national security was not protected,
and the vote-stealer did get inaugurated :-)




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From socio at getyourcasino.com  Mon Jan 22 08:17:09 2001
From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:17:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Alianza Estrategica
Message-ID: <20010122161709.297F6A7F@ns.luckyscasino.com>


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Directora Latinoamerica




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan 22 07:35:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:35:34 -0500
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b690c96069a0@[207.111.241.171]>; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:42:14AM -0800
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu> <a05010402b690c96069a0@[207.111.241.171]>
Message-ID: <20010122103534.C7041@cluebot.com>


On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:42:14AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Declan can comment on this, too, but it's clear that editors like 
> "Hegelian" set-ups of conflict (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). So 
> phrases like "Twilight of the ...." resonate in various ways, both 
> Hegelian and Wagnerian. The phrases suggest "end of an era" when in 
> fact there is no such end.
> 

All true, of course. It's even worse than that: The more a journalist
writes, the more he feels compelled to simplify conflicts and reporting
into what can be described in one short paragraph. Assignment editors
and copy editors generally encourage this trend, and let's face it:
We have a lot of smart people reading our stuff, but a lot of idiots
as well. Simplification sells -- and I'm not even talking about TV!

I find myself struggling against this, and occasionally have to make an
effort to unpack a sentence, to make it more descriptive.

All this is to say that I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about
that Salon article. Parts are true, but others are so simplified as to
be meaningless.

-Declan




From rusmin at telkom.net  Sun Jan 21 19:59:06 2001
From: rusmin at telkom.net (Rusmin)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:59:06 +0700
Subject: homeworker
Message-ID: <000701c08427$ad752360$0b51053d@edwin>

I want to give it atry, so please send me more information about this job. Thank You.


my email : egraldina at yahoo.com
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan 22 09:00:32 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:00:32 -0500
Subject: Cole BO
Message-ID: <200101221708.MAA09497@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>


>From a US Navy medical report on the USS Cole:

The explosion left a significant dusting of powder
aboard weather deck surfaces and a residual smell
(like fetrilizer) on the mess decks as well as in other
areas, including the starboard passageway leading
to Sick Bay. Smoke curtains helped to contain the
smell. The crew did not remove the substance from
the weather decks (where personnel slept on account
of the heat) because the FBI had not arrived to take
samples for testing. 12 fatalities could not be extricated
initially due to structural damage in the galley and mess
areas. As the temperature exceeded 100 degrees
daily, decomposition commenced rapidly. Crewmembers
and FBI agents used up supplies of oil of wintergreen
and eugenol during recovery efforts in order to minimize
decomposition odors. Vanilla extract was use for the
same purpose.

Excerpted from:


http://www.foia.navy.mil/usscole/ENCLOSE/enl140A5.pdf




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Jan 22 10:33:38 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:33:38 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Author Unknown
Message-ID: <3A6C7D02.3CE89AF6@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/books/00/12/26/2038233.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From bf at mindspring.com  Mon Jan 22 10:43:15 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:43:15 -0500
Subject: textual analysis 
Message-ID: <3A6C7EAA.81482BB5@mindspring.com>


Don Foster was asked to track down Ted Kaczynski by studying the
           Unabomber's own words (and uncovering fresh information about
his choice of
           victims). Foster, a Vassar prof who solved a centuries old
mystery involving a
           Shakespearean sonnet and unmasked the anonymous author of a
sensational Clinton
           campaign book, has written a book about science, words and
identity. You can run and hide,
           he says, but your words will always give you away. Author
Unknown is relevant to life
           online, where responsibility for words and anonymous
authorship is an everyday issue.

http://slashdot.org/books/00/12/26/2038233.shtml





From bf at mindspring.com  Mon Jan 22 10:47:17 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:47:17 -0500
Subject: supremes to discriminate reality from images, censorship
Message-ID: <3A6C7F87.90CB882A@mindspring.com>


Jan 22, 2001 - 10:29 AM

            Justices Will Review Ban on
            Virtual Kiddie Porn
            By Laurie Asseo
            Associated Press Writer

            WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court agreed
            Monday to decide whether Congress can attack
            child pornography by banning computer-altered
            pictures that only appear to show minors involved in
            sexual activity.

            The court said it will hear the government's argument
            that by banning sexual images that do not actually
            portray children, a 1996 law "helps to stamp out the
            market for child pornography involving real children."

            A coalition of adult-oriented businesses that
            challenged the ban says it violates free-speech
            rights, and a San Francisco-based federal appeals
            court agreed.

            The Child Pornography Prevention Act expanded a
            long-standing ban on child pornography to prohibit
            any image that "appears to be" or "conveys the
            impression" of someone under 18 engaged in
            sexually explicit conduct.

            The law targeted computer technology that can be
            used to alter an innocent picture of a child into a
            depiction of a child engaged in sex.

            The Free Speech Coalition, a California-based trade
            association of adult-oriented businesses, challenged
            the law in federal court. The group said it opposes
            child pornography, but that films and photos
            produced by its members could wrongly be deemed
            to show minors engaged in sexual conduct.

            The group did not challenge a section of the law that
            banned the use of identifiable children in
            computer-altered sexual images.

            A federal judge upheld the law, but the 9th U.S.
            Circuit Court of Appeals decided in December 1999
            the provisions challenged by the coalition violated the
            Constitution's free-speech protection. The court said
            the government did not show a connection between
            computer-generated child pornography and the
            exploitation of actual children.

            Several other appeals courts have upheld the
            provisions, and in the appeal acted on Monday,
            Justice Department lawyers asked the nation's
            highest court to resolve the conflict.

            The government has a compelling interest in
            preventing the sexual abuse and exploitation of
            children, government lawyers said, adding that
            pedophiles often use pictures to seduce other
            children into sexual activity.

            Because it is hard to distinguish computer-generated
            pictures from those actually portraying children
            involved in sex, "The government may find it
            impossible in many cases to prove that a
            pornographic image is of a real child," Justice
            Department lawyers said.

            The Free Speech Coalition's lawyers said that even
            without the disputed provisions, the 1996 law
            "remains a comprehensive and effective tool for
            fighting the real evils of child pornography."

            The case is Reno v. Free Speech Coalition, 00-795.





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Jan 22 05:49:24 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:49:24 +0000
Subject: [Fwd: TBTF Log, weeks of 2001-01-07 and 2001-01-14]
Message-ID: <3A6C3A64.6F91EDF7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Apologies for Choating  (at least there is no inline HTML in it) but
every single one of the articles in the most recent Tasty Bits log is
relevant to something or other that has been on the list recently. If
you don't already know of TBTF you should consider signing up to it.

Ken Brown

dawson at world.std.com wrote:
> 
> TBTF Log, weeks of 2001-01-07 and 2001-01-14
> 
>    These weeks' log entries:
> 
>    < http://tbtf.com/blog/2001-01-07.html >
>    < http://tbtf.com/blog/2001-01-14.html >
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Friday, 2001-01-19
> 
> ++ Light stopped in its tracks
>    9:47:41 am
> 
>    Now this is flat amazing. The scientist whose group last year slowed
>    light to a saunter [1] has now stopped it dead. Another group of
>    scientists, also in Cambridge, MA independently achieved the same
>    result. Frozen light. Turn on the laser and it starts up again. You
>    could even pick it up and carry it across town, if your supercooling
>    rig and laser setup were portable.
> 
>    The BBC coverage [2] is good, but the NY Times [3] outdoes the Beeb
>    with a handy illustration of how you encode a light beam in the
>    spins of chilled rubidium atoms.
> 
>    The research is to be published in forthcoming issues of the journal
>    Nature (Lene Vestergaard Hau et al., Rowland Institute for Science,
>    Cambridge) and the Physical Review Letters (Ronald L. Walsworth et
>    al., Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge). The
>    Times piece quotes extensively from the work of Walsworth's group;
>    Hau refused to discuss her work in detail because of restrictions
>    imposed by Nature.
> 
>    [1] http://tbtf.com/archive/0176.html#s11
>    [2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1124000/1124540.stm
>    [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/18/science/18LIGH.html?pagewanted=all
>    ____________________________________
> 
> Thursday, 2001-01-18
> 
> ++ Time to dump NSI
>    9:17:32 am
> 
>    Been waiting for the right moment to transfer your domain names
>    out of the control of Network Solutions? It may have arrived. This
>    morning I moved the last two domains in my stable to Dotster [1].
>    Until Feb. 18 this registrar is offering free transfers and a one-
>    year extension on the registration of any (.com, .net, .org) domain
>    name for $11.95 US.
> 
>    The last time I transferred a domain name, 6 months ago to the day,
>    the process involved faxing a registration form with a copy of my
>    driver's license. Today's transfers were initiated entirely online.
>    I already had a name registered with Dotster, so the process re-
>    quired only 5 steps and 5 minutes. If you need to set up a new
>    account, add another 5 minutes.
> 
>    Dotster's registration agreement [2] is middle-of-the-road. Like all
>    ICANN-affiliate agreements, it binds you to the Uniform Dispute
>    Resolution Policy. Unlike some, it names you as the "owner" of the
>    domain name, not its lessor. Dotster's prices are very good, but
>    bargain shoppers can find lower (for example at joker.com [3]).
> 
>    Go here [4] to initiate a domain-name transfer. I get no consider-
>    ation if you do. I looked into Dotster's affiliate program, but they
>    use something called Commission Junction [5], which asked for my
>    Social Security number and bank information (!) and had no privacy
>    policy that I could find. Welcome to the world of affiliate market-
>    ing. Life is too short. If you want to support TBTF, please visit
>    the Benefactors [6] page, and thanks.
> 
>    [1] http://www.dotster.com/
>    [2] http://www.dotster.com/Register/Agreement/
>    [3] https://joker.com/domain/index.html?lang=EN
>    [4] http://www.dotster.com/anniversary/
>    [5] http://www.cj.com/
>    [6] http://tbtf.com/the-benefactors.html
>    ____________
> 
> ++ Underground online
>    7:30:39 am
> 
>    By now the entire world knows that Suelette Dreyfus and Julian As-
>    sange, the authors of Underground: Hacking, madness and obsession
>    on the electronic frontier, have made available the full text of
>    the book online as "Literary Freeware: Not for Commercial Use." The
>    book's home [1] has been unavailable since the first moment I tried
>    -- surely before it was Slashdotted [2]. (The flash crowd will have
>    died down by now.)
> 
>    Julian Assange has sent a followup note pointing out some mirror
>    sites. I list a few here and reproduce Julian's note below.
> 
>      - (mirror) http://rubberhose.sourceforge.net/underground
> 
>      - (mirror) http://the.wiretapped.net/security/info/books/
> 
>      - (zip) http://demonstreet.com/underground.zip
> 
>      - (text) http://www.matthewmiller.net/underground.txt
>      - (Palm) http://www.matthewmiller.net/underground.pdb
> 
>      - (text) http://www.core.org.au/mystuff/underground.zip
>      - (Palm) http://www.core.org.au/mystuff/underground.pdb
>    ____________
> 
>      > Several people have noted that that www.underground-book.com has
>      > been slashdotted to kingdom-come (it doesn't even ping any more!) and
>      > have asked for mirrors.
> 
>      > There are a number listed in various slashdot replies, here:
> 
>      >         http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/18/0141232.shtml
> 
>      > Failing that, you can try http://rubberhose.sourceforge.net/underground,
>      > which is an officialish mirror of the download page.
> 
>      > Note that there are no mirrors of the web-site proper (just the
>      > download pages). But google has cached most of the site. A few
>      > of the more useful pages:
> 
>      >  Main page:
>      >    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.underground-book.com
>      >  Critical reviews:
>      >    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.underground-book.com/critics.php3
>      >  Reader reviews:
>      >    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.underground-book.com/readers.php3
>      >  Ordering hard-copy on-line from Australian university bookshops (note that
>      >  amazon.com does *not* stock books published by non-us publishers.. even
>      >  Random House Australia!):
>      >    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.underground-book.com/coop.php3
> 
>      >  Otherwise try http://www.underground-book.com/ in a few days when the deluge
>      >  is finally over.
> 
>      >  Cheers,
>      >  Julian
> 
>    [1] http://www.underground-book.com/
>    [2] http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/18/0141232.shtml
>    ____________________________________
> 
> Wednesday, 2001-01-17
> 
> ++ How many horseman?
>    11:38:51 am
> 
>    Salon runs a piece by Katharine Mieszkowski called "Turn Off the In-
>    ternet!" [1] in which she explores the tangled reasoning and shoddy
>    statistics behind the latest rap pinned on the Internet economy.
> 
>      > In addition to taking the heat for everything from kiddie porn
>      > to the gentrification of urban neighborhoods, the Net is now at
>      > fault for overloading our national power infrastructure.
> 
>    The blame-the-Internet meme seems to have originated with Mark Mills
>    and Peter Huber, two right-wing energy consultants frequently in the
>    pay of the coal industry. Their exaggerated numbers began seeping
>    into the mainstream with a Forbes article [2] last spring in which
>    they claimed that 8% of the nation's energy goes to power Internet
>    computers and infrastructure. This analysis [3] (note: PDF file) by
>    two UC Berkeley scientists says that Mills and Huber's numbers are
>    high by nearly an order of magnitude.
> 
>    Mieszkowski reports that energy usage went up by 2% a year in the
>    late 90s, but by 3.3% during the go-go late 80s. Paul Krugman re-
>    cently argued [4] that California's energy woes can be laid solidly
>    at the feet of the state's flawed deregulation scheme.
> 
>    [1] http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/01/17/net_power/print.html
>    [2] http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0531/6311070a.html
>    [3] http://enduse.lbl.gov/SharedData/IT/Forbescritique991209.pdf
>    [4] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/07/opinion/07KRUG.html
>    ____________________________________
> 
> Wednesday, 2001-01-10
> 
> ++ Memory slag
>    5:21:20 pm
> 
>    A couple of years ago, Rebecca Eisenberg offered some free advice to
>    PR folks on how not to waste the time of online journalists [1]
>    (cited in TBTF for 1999-09-11 [2]). Central to her advice was this
>    suggestion: don't send me MS Word attachments, send me URLs.
> 
>    But did they listen? Not hardly. Today I received a press release,
>    complete with attachments, that significantly upped the ante on this
>    poor PR practice.
> 
>    James Fallows's column in the Industry Standard this week, "No
>    Thanks for the Memories" [3], talks about what he calls memory slag:
>    leftover bits of data from a hard disk, or even from DRAM, that can
>    show up in documents. Fallows claims that such slag was very common
>    in Microsoft environments up to the middle of the last decade, but
>    that Microsoft made a big push starting after the release of Windows
>    95 to make sure its code zeros out memory that is supposed to be
>    blank. (Here's an explanatory page [4] on the site of the data-
>    recovery expert who opened Fallows's eyes.)
> 
>    Fallows's example concerns an obscure output format from MS Outlook,
>    which he guesses didn't draw the attention of the code cleaners. But
>    from the MS Word file I received today (apparently created in Word
>    98 on a Macintosh), it's clear that more mainstream formats are also
>    vulnerable to memory slag.
> 
>    The attachment was a two-page press release from a company I shall
>    not name. They had thoughtfully attached both .DOC and .PDF versions
>    of the release. Having just read the Fallows piece, I was curious to
>    note that the .DOC file was more than 10 times larger than the .PDF.
>    Instead of opening it using Microsoft Word, I dropped it onto BBEdit,
>    a Macintosh text editor that cheerfully showed the file's binary
>    content in all its glory.
> 
>    It quickly became clear that the extra 200K in the .DOC file con-
>    tained more than just Word's apparatus. I located several lengthy
>    lists of names -- apparently distribution lists -- and several
>    versions of what appeared to be a completely different press re-
>    lease. When I mailed these back to the sender in clear text, she was
>    rightly alarmed.
> 
>    Fallows quotes an employee of a computer-security company:
> 
>      > When we get a resume, in Word, from job applicants, we put it in
>      > the hex editor and go right to the end to see what else they've
>      > been writing.
> 
>    You have been warned.
> 
>    [1]  http://www.bossanova.com/rebeca/clips/prletter.html
>    [2]  http://tbtf.com/archive/1999-09-11.html#s09
>    [3]  http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,21271,00.html
>    [4]  http://www.crak.com/clinton.htm
>    ____________
> 
>    Updated 2001-01-11, 10:42 am: John Waterson, ITS, EC, SE writes:
> 
>      > It is quite alarming to think that non-zeroed blocks of
>      > malloc'ed memory might find their way into documents, but I
>      > figured it was worth mentioning that there is another -- more
>      > mundane and widely documented, although no less dangerous --
>      > explanation for the garbage you found in the press release.
> 
>      > Word includes a (mis)feature called *Fast Saves*, whereby text
>      > deleted from a document isn't actually removed from the file on
>      > disk when the user hits the Save button. Instead, Word just ap-
>      > pends any new text to the end of the file, and some flags are
>      > set which result in the "deleted" text being skipped by the
>      > document parser. This saves Word from having to rewrite the
>      > whole file, which appears to be a fairly disk-intensive oper-
>      > ation.
> 
>      > However, this becomes a very widespread problem when you con-
>      > sider how most non-technical people use a word processor. Not
>      > having much of a grasp of stylesheets, templates and the like,
>      > an average user will almost never create a new document from
>      > scratch. Instead, they'll pick a document from their personal
>      > archive that is broadly similar in format to the one they want
>      > to create, copy it, and start deleting the stuff that they want
>      > to change. I figure that this behaviour -- coupled with the Fast
>      > Saves feature -- is the most likely explanation for the detritus
>      > in your press release.
> 
>      > Anyway, the other thing that is worth mentioning about Fast
>      > Saves is that -- mercifully, and unlike the non-zeroed memory
>      > problem -- they are fairly easy to switch off. Have a look under
>      > the Save tab of the Tools, Options dialog, and just disable the
>      > relevant setting.
> 
>      > Also, for reference: Microsoft have released many a technote
>      > about the Fast Saves option in Word. Some samples: [5], [6],
>      > [7]. These all reference Word for Windows, but the Mac version
>      > definitely seems to incorporate the Fast Saves feature too, viz:
>      > [8].
> 
>    [5] http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q211/2/09.ASP
>    [6] http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q237/3/61.asp
>    [7] http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q197/9/78.ASP
>    [8] http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q51/8/40.ASP
>    ____________________________________
> 
> Tuesday, 2001-01-09
> 
> ++ Much ado about peering
>    7:04:31 pm
> 
>    The NANOG list has recently carried some close-to-the-ground mes-
>    sages on the murky and little-understood world of ISP peering.
>    Someone notified Dave Farber (the Paul Revere of the Internet [1]),
>    and readers of his IP list enjoyed this piece of apparent news [2].
>    Now unless the tech reporters read NANOG, the media will probably
>    pick up the story, reporting that UUNet has at last published its
>    requirements for peering and the world will be a better place.
> 
>    For the record, there's no news here.
> 
>    Background: in the earliest days of the commercial Net, at the point
>    when the phrase "Internet backbone" ceased to have a well-defined
>    meaning, the largest ISPs met at public exchange points [3] and
>    swapped traffic for free. Soon the largest of the large were ex-
>    changing for free only among themselves; they began charging to
>    take the traffic of smaller carriers. In 1997 TBTF marked [4] the
>    point at which the next smaller fish, tier-2 carriers, began to
>    charge exchange fees to the still smaller downstream regionals and
>    ISPs.
> 
>    In recent years, as Net traffic has continued its wild growth,
>    peering arrangements have gotten increasingly complicated. It used
>    not to be possible for a mid-sized carrier to discover anything
>    about the peering policies of the big guys without signing a non-
>    disclosure agreements and engaging in exhaustive price negotiations.
> 
>    The piece that caught Farber's eye was news of UUNet's publication
>    of its peering standards [5]. This event was neither the first of
>    its kind -- Genuity had published their standards [6] last fall, as
>    a Farber follow-up mentioned -- nor was it particularly meaningful
>    for mid-tier ISPs. As one of NANOG's stalwarts posted [7], knowing
>    what a tier-1's peering policies are is not the same as obtaining a
>    peering agreement with one of them. UUNet's publicly disclosed
>    policy will simply make it easier for smaller carriers to rule out
>    the possibility of ever peering with the giant.
> 
>    [1] http://www.privatesectorcouncil.org/imtw00.html
>    [2] http://www.interesting-people.org/200101/0015.html
>    [3] http://www.mae.net/east-contact.html
>    [4] http://tbtf.com/archive/1997-05-08.html#s07
>    [5] http://www.uu.net/peering/
>    [6] http://www.genuity.com/infrastructure/interconnection.htm
>    [7] http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/current/msg00693.html
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
>    TBTF Log home at http://tbtf.com/blog/ . To unsubscribe from this
>    list send the message "unsubscribe" to tbtf-log-request at tbtf.com, or
>    visit http://tbtf.com/blog/#subscribe .
> 
>    To subscribe to the TBTF newsletter, send the message "subscribe" to
>    tbtf-request at tbtf.com, or visit http://tbtf.com/#autosub .
> 
>    TBTF and the TBTF Log are Copyright 1994-2000 by Keith Dawson, daw-
>    son at world.std.com. Commercial use prohibited. For non-commercial
>    purposes please forward, post, and link as you see fit.
>    _______________________________________________
>    Keith Dawson               dawson at world.std.com
>    Layer of ash separates morning and evening milk.
> 
>    2000 -- TBTF named to Forbes Magazine's Best of the Web
>    1999 -- KD named Internet Freedom's Internet Journalist of the Year
>    1997, 1998 -- TBTF named to PC Magazine's Best Free Stuff on the Web




From SexyKiana at adultfriendfinder.com  Mon Jan 22 14:10:08 2001
From: SexyKiana at adultfriendfinder.com (SexyKiana at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:10:08 -0800
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <20010122221008.20489.qmail@e88.friendfinder.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan 22 14:18:29 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:18:29 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010121103458.5612R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010122141829.01b73ca0@idiom.com>


One of the major values to fiction is that it lets you think about
the social implications of technology, in most cases without
going deeply into the technology itself.  That's important for
cypherpunks, though the street finds its own uses for tech,
and it's easier to describe crypto non-bogusly than it is to
describe star-drive engines or brain-machine interfaces.

Neil Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is of course recommended,
and classics like Vinge's "True Names" and "A Fire Upon The Deep".
and Stephenson's "Snow Crash".  Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game"
has some nice treatment of reputation systems and pseudonymity -
unfortunately it's *much* harder to get the tech correct than it is
to write about what if feels like to use well-designed systems :-)
Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" and Sterling's "Islands in the Net"
hit some of the appropriate space.
"Trouble and Her Friends" has some good treatment of cryptographically
protected subcultures, though that's more as redeeming-social-value
for a book that's written for genre.  
"Idoru" by Gibson does some of the same.

Then there's "ruthless.com" by "whatever hack writer Tom Clancy's 
franchised his name out to these days" - Bad Tech, 1-dimensional characters,
but it's interesting to see whose political agenda he's selling out to.
Bring your barf bags, but read it....

>> One effort in this direction which comes to mind is the "communitarian"
>> approach applied to privacy by Amitai Etizoni. What I've heard of it I
>> don't like, but I don't know much more than a few basic things -
>> "community" above all, corporate invasions of privacy pure evil, state
>> intrusions less evil because subject to scrutiny. 

Etizoni is a very technical boy.  Unfortunately, his value system
led him to invent "Fair Cryptography" (that's "fair" as in "Fair Trade",
not "fair" as in "actually fair to anybody" :-), which covers a 
couple of variants on key escrow.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




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From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Jan 22 06:00:02 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:00:02 +0100
Subject: Yet another spam generator
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010118121924.00a609a0@mail.well.com> <3A682943.7A13CD7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A6C3CE2.92B457EE@ricardo.de>


Ken Brown wrote:
> & so (the author claims) bypass Echelon. Hmmm.  Whoever put the site up
> doesn't seem to have a clear distinction between cryptography,
> stenography & obfuscation.  Does everyone have to reinvent the wheel
> every time? Are we going to go through it all *again* with mobile phone
> text messages?

unlikely. 160 chars doesn't leave much room for a stego message.


> I don't think it is going to cause NSA any headaches. What chance do
> they have of knowing about a method which has only been described in
> Byte and on Risks? Presumably if you  identify a posting as having been
> through Mimic & you can get enough text to recover the model you can
> retrieve plaintext reasonably easily - 

it would probably be much cheaper and reliable to either infiltrate or
black job the company.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan 22 12:20:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:20:28 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b68ece765048@[207.111.241.220]>
References: <3A62FF52.F994036@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010122102059.009f6a40@idiom.com>


At 12:19 AM 1/20/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>I have no idea which 370 was put on a plane, but I expect more than 
>one generation rode on planes.
>
>>At any rate, I was thinking in today's terms,
>>and one would hope our glorious leaders would have a bit more on the
>>technical ball than to think they needed to drag mainframes around in
planes,
>
>It's fairly "tired" to deprecate "glorious leaders" by claiming that 
>dragging mainframes around in planes is ipso fact a dumb idea. 
>Reasons are left for you to figure out.

I don't know about mainframes, but it wouldn't surprise me,
though the cooling and power systems are a bit large.
I do know that there was a PBX on Looking Glass back in the 60s -
a friend of mine did telecom for SAC Offutt, and says that
one of the people on the plane once noticed that there were
two lines busy on the PBX, but nobody on the phone.
They tracked it down, and found that some guy in the barracks
had a 16-button Autovon phone, and had dialed the magic number
on the ground-based PBX to get forwarded up to the bird,
dialed across the PBX and back down, then dialed out on AUTOVON.
Needless to say, unlike barracks phones which couldn't call much of
anybody off-base without asking the operator to set up the call,
the PBX on Looking Glass was allowed to call anybody in the world
that it wants to, at any priority it needs, so the guy was doing
a reasonably high-priority call to his buddies in Guam.

(AUTOVON was the old DoD AUTOmatic VOice Network, which had
a 5-level priority system to make sure that important calls get through.
To some extent, the priority system was also used to allocate
expensive resources, e.g. voice calls across the Pacific 
were more likely to succeed at Priority level than Routine,
and probably wouldn't get knocked down before you finished.
The extra four Touch-Tone buttons were used to signal the
priority level, and specific phones and locations were limited
in the level of priority they could dial.  Alternatively,
if you only had a regular phone, such as most phones on base PBXs,
you could place a priority call by asking the operator to connect you.
As a friend of mine said "We were authorized to make Flash-level calls,
but only if we actually *saw* a nuclear explosion..."   That's level
4 out of 5.)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





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From: grubmike at hotmail.com (Mike Grub)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:06:00 -0700
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan 22 16:43:23 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:43:23 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101221908020.30849-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010122141829.01b73ca0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010122164323.01b84c70@idiom.com>


At 07:09 PM 1/22/01 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>> Etizoni is a very technical boy.  Unfortunately, his value system
>> led him to invent "Fair Cryptography" (that's "fair" as in "Fair Trade",
>> not "fair" as in "actually fair to anybody" :-), which covers a 
>> couple of variants on key escrow.
>
>Hmm. So this explains all those papers on "fair cryptosystems." Well, at
>least one paper (and patent!) by Micali...

Gak.  How did I spaz so badly on that one?  Of course it was Micali.
Ignore my whole paragraph!

I think Etizoni did something technical though, but maybe it was
some other privacy-degrading thing, or maybe I'm remembering him
commenting on fair cryptosystems.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From nikos_de at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 22 08:48:24 2001
From: nikos_de at hotmail.com (Nikolaos Dimitrakopoulos)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:48:24 -0000
Subject: remove
Message-ID: <F129ekVgKMy5KINzq6x00001ef2@hotmail.com>


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From maharrop at eisa.net.au  Sun Jan 21 22:11:17 2001
From: maharrop at eisa.net.au (Mark Harrop)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:11:17 +1100
Subject: nambla
In-Reply-To: <20001214200002.22602.qmail@box72.nightmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010122171103.02333ec0@mail.eisa.net.au>

ARE YOU SERIOUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


At 07:00 15/12/00, gary seven wrote:
>You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea 
>of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in 
>the presence of the HOLY Angels.  The seals are opened.  PREPARE FOR YOUR 
>DESTRUCTION
>
>CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION
>
>THE PLAGUES OF THE LORD FOR THE SIN OF THE "SEA OF BABIES" UPON ALL 
>NATIONS OF THE EARTH
>
>IAIAIAIAIOIOIOIOIO   I AM BEFORE ALL BUT THE FATHER; MELOCH HEL ALOKIM 
>TPHARET HOD JESAITH; BAHANDO HELESLOIR DEALZAT
>
>Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
>Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough.
>Cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the 
>increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock.
>Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
>"The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all 
>that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on 
>account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me.
>The LORD will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you 
>off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
>The LORD will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, 
>and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they 
>shall pursue you until you perish.
>And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you 
>shall be iron.
>The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it 
>shall come down upon you until you are destroyed.
>"The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go 
>out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them; and you shall 
>be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
>And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air, and for the 
>beasts of the earth; and there shall be no one to frighten them away.
>The LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt, and with the ulcers and 
>the scurvy and the itch, of which you cannot be healed.
>The LORD will smite you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind;
>and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you 
>shall not prosper in your ways; and you shall be only oppressed and robbed 
>continually, and there shall be no one to help you.
>You shall betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; you shall 
>build a house, and you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, 
>and you shall not use the fruit of it.
>Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it; your 
>ass shall be violently taken away before your face, and shall not be 
>restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and there 
>shall be no one to help you.
>Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your 
>eyes look on and fail with longing for them all the day; and it shall not 
>be in the power of your hand to prevent it.
>A nation which you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground 
>and of all your labors; and you shall be only oppressed and crushed 
>continually;
>so that you shall be driven mad by the sight which your eyes shall see.
>The LORD will smite you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils 
>of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of 
>your head.
>"The LORD will bring you, and your king whom you set over you, to a nation 
>that neither you nor your fathers have known; and there you shall serve 
>other gods, of wood and stone.
>And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword, among all the 
>peoples where the LORD will lead you away.
>You shall carry much seed into the field, and shall gather little in; for 
>the locust shall consume it.
>You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of 
>the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worm shall eat them.
>You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall 
>not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off.
>You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they 
>shall go into captivity.
>All your trees and the fruit of your ground the locust shall possess.
>The sojourner who is among you shall mount above you higher and higher; 
>and you shall come down lower and lower.
>He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, 
>and you shall be the tail.
>All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you, till 
>you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your 
>God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded you.
>They shall be upon you as a sign and a wonder, and upon your descendants 
>for ever.
>"Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness 
>of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things,
>therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against 
>you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and in want of all things; and he 
>will put a yoke of iron upon your neck, until he has destroyed you.
>The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the 
>earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you do not 
>understand,
>a nation of stern countenance, who shall not regard the person of the old 
>or show favor to the young,
>
>1Give ear, you heavens, and I will speak;
>Let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
>32:2My doctrine shall drop as the rain;
>My speech shall condense as the dew,
>As the small rain on the tender grass,
>As the showers on the herb.
>32:3For I will proclaim the name of Yahweh:
>Ascribe greatness to our God.
>32:4The Rock, his work is perfect;
>For all his ways are justice:
>A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
>Just and right is he.
>32:5They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is 
>their blemish;
>They are a perverse and crooked generation.
>32:6Do you thus requite Yahweh,
>Foolish people and unwise?
>Isn't he your father who has bought you?
>He has made you, and established you.
>32:7Remember the days of old,
>Consider the years of many generations:
>Ask your father, and he will show you;
>Your elders, and they will tell you.
>32:8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
>When he separated the children of men,
>He set the bounds of the peoples
>According to the number of the children of Israel.
>32:9For Yahweh's portion is his people;
>Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
>32:10He found him in a desert land,
>In the waste howling wilderness;
>He compassed him about, he cared for him,
>He kept him as the apple of his eye.
>32:11As an eagle that stirs up her nest,
>That flutters over her young,
>He spread abroad his wings, he took them,
>He bore them on his feathers.
>32:12Yahweh alone did lead him,
>There was no foreign god with him.
>32:13He made him ride on the high places of the earth,
>He ate the increase of the field;
>He made him to suck honey out of the rock,
>Oil out of the flinty rock;
>32:14Butter of the herd, and milk of the flock,
>With fat of lambs,
>Rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats,
>With the finest of the wheat;
>Of the blood of the grape you drank wine.
>32:15But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked:
>You have grown fat, you are grown thick, you are become sleek;
>Then he forsook God who made him,
>Lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
>32:16They moved him to jealousy with strange gods;
>With abominations provoked they him to anger.
>32:17They sacrificed to demons, which were no God,
>To gods that they didn't know,
>To new gods that came up of late,
>Which your fathers didn't dread.
>32:18Of the Rock that became your father, you are unmindful,
>Have forgotten God who gave you birth.
>32:19Yahweh saw it, and abhorred them,
>Because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.
>32:20He said, I will hide my face from them,
>I will see what their end shall be:
>For they are a very perverse generation,
>Children in whom is no faithfulness.
>32:21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
>They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
>I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people;
>I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
>32:22For a fire is kindled in my anger,
>Burns to the lowest Sheol,
>Devours the earth with its increase,
>Sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.
>32:23I will heap evils on them;
>I will spend my arrows on them:
>32:24They shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured with burning heat
>Bitter destruction;
>The teeth of animals will I send on them,
>With the poison of crawling things of the dust.
>32:25Outside shall the sword bereave,
>In the chambers terror;
>It shall destroy both young man and virgin,
>The suckling with the man of gray hairs.
>32:26I said, I would scatter them afar,
>I would make the memory of them to cease from among men;
>32:27Were it not that I feared the provocation of the enemy,
>Lest their adversaries should judge amiss,
>Lest they should say, Our hand is exalted,
>Yahweh has not done all this.
>32:28For they are a nation void of counsel,
>There is no understanding in them.
>32:29Oh that they were wise, that they understood this,
>That they would consider their latter end!
>32:30How should one chase a thousand,
>Two put ten thousand to flight,
>Except their Rock had sold them,
>Yahweh had delivered them up?
>32:31For their rock is not as our Rock,
>Even our enemies themselves being judges.
>32:32For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
>Of the fields of Gomorrah:
>Their grapes are grapes of gall,
>Their clusters are bitter:
>32:33Their wine is the poison of serpents,
>The cruel venom of asps.
>32:34Isn't this laid up in store with me,
>Sealed up among my treasures?
>32:35Vengeance is mine, and recompense,
>At the time when their foot shall slide:
>For the day of their calamity is at hand,
>The things that are to come on them shall make haste.
>32:36For Yahweh will judge his people,
>Repent himself for his servants;
>When he sees that their power is gone,
>There is none remaining, shut up or left at large.
>32:37He will say, Where are their gods,
>The rock in which they took refuge;
>32:38Which ate the fat of their sacrifices,
>And drank the wine of their drink-offering?
>Let them rise up and help you,
>Let them be your protection.
>32:39See now that I, even I, am he,
>There is no god with me:
>I kill, and I make alive;
>I wound, and I heal;
>There is none who can deliver out of my hand.
>32:40For I lift up my hand to heaven,
>And say, As I live forever,
>32:41If I whet my glittering sword,
>My hand take hold on judgment;
>I will render vengeance to my adversaries,
>Will recompense those who hate me.
>32:42I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
>My sword shall devour flesh;
>With the blood of the slain and the captives,
> >From the head of the leaders of the enemy.
>32:43Rejoice, you nations, with his people:
>For he will avenge the blood of his servants,
>Will render vengeance to his adversaries,
>Will make expiation for his land, for his people.
>
>
>
>1: Draw near, O nations, to hear,
>and hearken, O peoples!
>Let the earth listen, and all that fills it;
>the world, and all that comes from it.
>2:
>For the LORD is enraged against all the nations,
>and furious against all their host,
>he has doomed them, has given them over for slaughter.
>3:
>Their slain shall be cast out,
>and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
>the mountains shall flow with their blood.
>4:
>All the host of heaven shall rot away,
>and the skies roll up like a scroll.
>All their host shall fall,
>as leaves fall from the vine,
>like leaves falling from the fig tree.
>5:
>For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
>behold, it descends for judgment upon Earth,
>upon the people I have doomed.
>6:
>The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood,
>it is gorged with fat,
>with the blood of lambs and goats,
>with the fat of the kidneys of rams.
>For the LORD has a sacrifice in America,
>a great slaughter in the land of its allies.
>7:
>Wild oxen shall fall with them,
>and young steers with the mighty bulls.
>Their land shall be soaked with blood,
>and their soil made rich with fat.
>8:
>For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
>a year of recompense for the cause of Children.
>9:
>And the streams of America shall be turned into pitch,
>and her soil into brimstone;
>her land shall become burning pitch.
>10:
>Night and day it shall not be quenched;
>its smoke shall go up for ever.
> >From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
>none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
>11:
>But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it,
>the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
>He shall stretch the line of confusion over it,
>and the plummet of chaos over its nobles.
>12:
>They shall name it No Kingdom There,
>and all its princes shall be nothing.
>13:
>Thorns shall grow over its strongholds,
>nettles and thistles in its fortresses.
>It shall be the haunt of jackals,
>an abode for ostriches.
>14:
>And wild beasts shall meet with hyenas,
>the satyr shall cry to his fellow;
>yea, there shall the night hag alight,
>and find for herself a resting place.
>15:
>There shall the owl nest and lay
>and hatch and gather her young in her shadow;
>yea, there shall the kites be gathered,
>each one with her mate.
>16:
>Seek and read from the book of the LORD:
>Not one of these shall be missing;
>none shall be without her mate.
>For the mouth of the LORD has commanded,
>and his Spirit has gathered them.
>17:
>He has cast the lot for them,
>his hand has portioned it out to them with the line;
>they shall possess it for ever,
>from generation to generation they shall dwell in it.
>
>
>Come down and sit in the dust,
>O virgin daughter of Babylon;
>sit on the ground without a throne,
>O daughter of the Chalde'ans!
>For you shall no more be called
>tender and delicate.
>2:
>Take the millstones and grind meal,
>put off your veil,
>strip off your robe, uncover your legs,
>pass through the rivers.
>3:
>Your nakedness shall be uncovered,
>and your shame shall be seen.
>I will take vengeance,
>and I will spare no man.
>4:
>Our Redeemer -- the LORD of hosts is his name --
>is the Holy One of Israel.
>5:
>Sit in silence, and go into darkness,
>O daughter of the Chalde'ans;
>for you shall no more be called
>the mistress of kingdoms.
>6:
>I was angry with my people,
>I profaned my heritage;
>I gave them into your hand,
>you showed them no mercy;
>on the aged you made your yoke
>exceedingly heavy.
>7:
>You said, "I shall be mistress for ever,"
>so that you did not lay these things to heart
>or remember their end.
>8:
>Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures,
>who sit securely,
>who say in your heart,
>"I am, and there is no one besides me;
>I shall not sit as a widow
>or know the loss of children":
>9:
>These two things shall come to you
>in a moment, in one day;
>the loss of children and widowhood
>shall come upon you in full measure,
>in spite of your many sorceries
>and the great power of your enchantments.
>10:
>You felt secure in your wickedness,
>you said, "No one sees me";
>your wisdom and your knowledge
>led you astray,
>and you said in your heart,
>"I am, and there is no one besides me."
>11:
>But evil shall come upon you,
>for which you cannot atone;
>disaster shall fall upon you,
>which you will not be able to expiate;
>and ruin shall come on you suddenly,
>of which you know nothing.
>12:
>Stand fast in your enchantments
>and your many sorceries,
>with which you have labored from your youth;
>perhaps you may be able to succeed,
>perhaps you may inspire terror.
>13:
>You are wearied with your many counsels;
>let them stand forth and save you,
>those who divide the heavens,
>who gaze at the stars,
>who at the new moons predict
>what shall befall you.
>14:
>Behold, they are like stubble,
>the fire consumes them;
>they cannot deliver themselves
>from the power of the flame.
>No coal for warming oneself is this,
>no fire to sit before!
>15:
>Such to you are those with whom you have labored,
>who have trafficked with you from your youth;
>they wander about each in his own direction;
>there is no one to save you.
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________
>Get Your Free, Private Email at http://www.nightmail.com
>
>***********************************************************************
>
>   Nightmail is sponsored by Friend Finder Personals.  With over
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Cheers!
Mark Harrop
maharrop at eisa.net.au
maharrop at my-deja.com
mandhharrop at hotmail.com


Moderator  of the following Programming Lists:

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From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan 22 14:36:21 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:36:21 -0500
Subject: supremes to discriminate reality from images, censorship
In-Reply-To: <3A6C7F87.90CB882A@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101221345020.29044-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

>Jan 22, 2001 - 10:29 AM
>
>            Justices Will Review Ban on
>            Virtual Kiddie Porn
>
>            The court said it will hear the government's argument
>            that by banning sexual images that do not actually
>            portray children, a 1996 law "helps to stamp out the
>            market for child pornography involving real children."

Which, actually, I'm reasonably sure it does.  But only 
by making the posession of such pictures a very serious 
legal risk.  This argument says, "as long as we are jailing 
people for having these images (and subjecting them to public 
humiliation and ostracism via 'sex offender notification' 
laws when they get out), a fair number of people who might 
otherwise want to have them won't consider it worth the 
risk."  

Now that may be killing a *market*, but it doesn't have a 
damn thing to do with killing *demand*. 

This gets at something that I think is a very general 
principle; they wanted to get the suppliers who were abusing 
kids, fine.  They decided that in order to get the suppliers 
they'd have to destroy the market, so they made posession of 
kiddie porn illegal -- This is already overstepping bounds, 
because there were less restrictive methods available.  They 
could have made the posession of kiddie porn produced *after 
a particular year* illegal, for example.  

But then they got so eager to kill the market that they made 
posession of anything which *appears to be* kiddie porn 
illegal....  which had no effect whatsoever on the suppliers 
who were abusing kids in the first place. 

They lost sight of the fact that killing the market was a means 
to an end in the first place, and not an end in itself.  

Now, I think that there is a fundamental legal principle here, 
which is that every time you pass a law you ought to know 
exactly why you're passing it.  Every law ought to be passed 
pursuant to some clearly stated principle or set of principles, 
and the admission of new items to the set of principles that 
are considered just basis for law ought to be very carefully 
considered.  There's probably a fancy latin term for this, but 
I don't know what it would be.  

Anyway, what has happened here is that there was a law passed 
(against kiddie porn) on the principle that we ought not allow 
people to profit from abusing kids.  And then a second law was 
passed (against CG pseudo-kiddie porn) on the principle that 
we ought not allow kiddie porn (a simplification or wilful 
misinterpretation of the purpose of the original law).

Basically, a new principle got elevated into the set that laws 
can be passed to uphold, without anybody actually stopping and 
thinking about it and making a decision.  And a bad law resulted. 

There is a fundamental rule here, which is that in a society 
governed by law you have to make decisions about and keep track 
of what principles laws can be passed to uphold.  In the long run, 
given the availability of crypto, any laws against posessing some 
particular flavor or type of bits are doomed to be unenforceable.
But still, that rule will always be with us, and while it remains 
unrecognized (or unimplemented) by governments, "regulatory creep" 
will continue to advance by the passage of bad laws.


					Bear





From andreou at netexperts.gr  Mon Jan 22 07:44:27 2001
From: andreou at netexperts.gr (Alexandros Andreou)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:44:27 +0200
Subject: REMOVE
Message-ID: <00cc01c0848a$415ad900$f2c278d4@g8f8d4>


REMOVE




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 22 16:42:14 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:42:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Kneel!  A SUDS J20 Roundup (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122183941.5612j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:26:55 -0500
From: Any Mouse
Reply-To: ???
To: ???
Subject: Kneel!  A SUDS J20 Roundup

SUDS folks are a riot-- literally.  "We love Dick!  We love Bush" indeed...
Hah-larry-us mind fucking.  I can just imagine the confusion in the minds and
faces of all those easily confused...


----- Original Message -----
From: Another Mouse
To: <studentsforanundemocraticsociety at egroups.com>; <J20action at egroups.com>;
"NYC DAN" <NYC-DAN at topica.com>; "Reclaim Streets"
<reclaimthestreets at listbot.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 4:56 PM
Subject: Kneel! A SUDS J20 Roundup


> Reclaim the Streets NYC - http://reclaimthestreetsnyc.tao.ca
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you're baffled: http://www.freespeech.org/suds_unite
>
> Tender comrades:
>
> Hello to all.  I was going to individually thank everyone for your
> contributions to our SUDS-J20 project, and then I realized that I would end
> up going on and on and thanking just about everybody involved in the thing.
> And besides, there is something hierarchical about thank-yous, especially
> when one considers the collective nature of this project.  So if I may, I'd
> like to give a big, horizontal thank-you to the SUDS on behalf of the SUDS.
> We rocked.  I'd say that we were the best affinity group there, but from the
> footage I saw the Black Bloc had a pretty damn good day.
>
> Well, anyway, that was some fun, wasn't it?  We started the day in front of
> Union Station, donning our SUDS outfits, practicing chants, and conferencing
> about various things, as laughing protesters and bewildered Bush supporters
> streamed out of the station.  We performed our skit for the first time to an
> especially confused-looking group of Japanese tourists.  For about 20
> minutes a tall, middle-aged white man in a cowboy hat ranted at us about
> Jesus. He either wanted us to accept Jesus into our hearts or he was trying
> to get Jesus to fry us with a lightning bolt.  Hard to tell with these guys.
> Eventually he left in disgust, contemptuously spitting at us, "Government's
> not supposed to be fun."  We started chanting it: "Government's Not Supposed
> to Be Fun! Government's Not Supposed to Be Fun!"
>
> Therein lies the great thing about the SUDS concept: we got some of best
> material from the nutty Republicans wandering around DC, yelling at us.  And
> boy, did we confuse them. For almost four blocks two teenage Republican
> girls carried our signs until they caught on and threw them on the ground in
> disgust.
>
> Perhaps even funnier than the reactions of the loon-right were those of the
> REAL centers of Republican power, the fur-coated, hair-helmeted women and
> their tuxed-and-cowboy booted husbands, at once arrogantly elitist and
> defiantly unsophisticated.  They seemed to be scared shitless all weekend
> anyway*, but we really threw them for a loop.  Kneel before Bush!
>
> We walked off towards the Supreme Court with what seemed to be a completely
> random group of non-costumed high-school kids in tow who just thought we
> looked fun.  We arrived to a thin but awaiting crowd of Loud Citizens.  I
> think we actually saved their rally.  Despite how it looked, the speakers
> had shown up but had taken off by the time we got there (for more info,
> visit http://www.loudcitizen.com/million/pics.asp.  But even in these
> pictures the crowd looks pretty thin).
>
> Now, these guys were something else.  I was expecting a bunch of strident,
> maniacal brown-shirts or something, but they were more like agoraphobic,
> dorky AOL employees with bad teeth from suburban Virginia.  One got the
> feeling that if they weren't really into being Republican they'd be
> obsessively taping Howard Stern or putting together long spreadsheet
> documents for their fantasy baseball leagues.  Those kinds of guys.  One
> white-haired guy had made himself this wacky paper hat that I guess was
> supposed to represent "hanging chads."  They didn't seem to get that, even
> aside from the schtick, we weren't Gore supporters.  In fact, they didn't
> seem to understand much.  They would chant at us (they had some doozies:
> "Mean-Spirited, Arrogant, Condescending Liberals!"  and that
> "Nah-nah-hey-hey-goodbye" song).  And we would just start chanting the same
> thing and pretending we were with them.  Occasionally we would mutate their
> chants: their "President Bush" became our "Emperor Bush," their "Four More
> Years" became our "A Thousand More Years," and so on.  At one point I even
> hooked arms with a particularly excited LC and we did a little jig.
> Eventually they left  Some said we drove them away, but I think they just
> wanted to go to the parade route and sneak a peek at the Emperor.
>
> We proceeded to the parade route chanting "All Hail Bush," "No Justice, No
> Problem," "Idiot Boy-King," and other fun ditties, stopping on the way to do
> a show.  "Kneel before Bush!" I shouted to the SUDS and the puzzled/bemused
> crowd.  "Do we love George W. Bush with every fiber of our beings?  Would we
> die for him?  Say it!"  And the SUDS started yelling, "We Love Bush!"  "What
> about his retainer?  What about Dick Cheney?  Do we love him?  Say it!  We
> Love Dick!"  And we goose-stepped off, chanting "We Love Bush!  We Love
> Dick!"
>
> We wandered through the city until we hit the checkpoint closest to the NOW
> rally.  This is where we experienced our only real crisis of the day, when
> about half of us vanished (they had to pee and the back and front marshals
> didn't communicate about it).  But this gave us the opportunity to eat
> breakfast and we were reunited soon enough.  We did another performance on
> line as a gesture of good-will to all the people we had cut in front of,
> eventually being allowed in and putting on yet another show for the big NOW
> rally.  At this point we picked up some random liberal dude who wanted to do
> his own Lt. Gen. John Holy Cleansing Fire Smith act, which was fine with me
> because I was starting to lose my voice, but he kept bringing the
> conversation back to the whole vote-count thing, and he was neither in
> costume nor funny.  We continued along the parade route for a while,
> occasionally stopping and performing and trying to tailor the skit to
> whatever group we were performing for.  At one point we met up with a bunch
> of lefty student types with IAC signs who played along and did a goofy
> "counter-protest" thing with us.  They would shout real leftist slogans at
> us, and we would shout SUDS slogans back at them.  At one point they started
> shouting "La Puebla Unita (etc.)" at us and we shouted "Speak English!" back
> at them.
>
> Soon after this I started to lose my voice, and we decided that we didn't
> want to spent the whole day waiting for Bush and Dick to come down the pike
> (story of my life, ba-dum-bump), so we decided to squeeze out via a
> choke-point.  Republicans and protesters alike were being crushed behind
> some empty bleachers and a barricade that took up most of the sidewalk,
> squeezing through a two-foot-wide space as cops looked on, amused at our
> suffering.  "These protesters are so rude, taking up all this space," one
> hair-helmet woman said.  This took us close to a half-hour, and by that time
> I was about ready to collapse.  Then a bunch of us went to Chinatown for
> lunch.
>
> Well, that's my version.  I'd love to hear others'
>
> XO
> Jason, aka LGJHCFS
>
> *An aside: that morning, on the way to DC from Alexandria, we sat on a train
> with a bunch of these Republicans.  When we got into the city, an
> African-American man in his 30s entered the train, seething.  Finally,
> unable to hold himself back, he blurted out, "fuck George Bush."  He paused.
> It felt good.  He said it again.  The third time, we joined him, chanting,
> "Fuck George Bush!  Fuck George Bush!"  I thought the GOPers were going to
> shit themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to reclaimthestreets-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Jan 22 16:09:29 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:09:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010122141829.01b73ca0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101221908020.30849-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> "Trouble and Her Friends" has some good treatment of cryptographically
> protected subcultures, though that's more as redeeming-social-value
> for a book that's written for genre.  

Yes, that had been nagging at me. I haven't read it in years so didn't
want to speak up and find that I'd confused it with some other book...but
I remember it being really good.

> Etizoni is a very technical boy.  Unfortunately, his value system
> led him to invent "Fair Cryptography" (that's "fair" as in "Fair Trade",
> not "fair" as in "actually fair to anybody" :-), which covers a 
> couple of variants on key escrow.

Hmm. So this explains all those papers on "fair cryptosystems." Well, at
least one paper (and patent!) by Micali...

-David




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jan 22 19:58:46 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:58:46 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <20010121042256.B24468@cluebot.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <20010119235415.A10897@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010122195623.01f492c0@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
 > > > > Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead
 > > > > of snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips
 > > > > into town?

At 11:54 PM 1/19/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 > > > Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.
 > > >
 > > > Heck, employers do it to employees all the time.

James A. Donald:
 > > I cannot recall any employer ever calling security to stick guns
 > > in my face.

Declan McCullagh:
 > You're thinking too literally. Show of force: When an employer
 > reminds a slacker that having a job is not a right.

That is not force.  Should I accept that staying alive is not a right?

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      Hh0851UqR4pqR7U8SqUI15fO96OtxYw7dA3BzahK
      4iHD7AKFu9kHGsyJsnoeKKJZrzdhEgcXfErZYk9H2




From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jan 22 20:07:05 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:07:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122214728.5612n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101222004380.3031-100000@clueserver.org>



Another Crypto-related movie is:

A Day At The Races by the Marx Bros. (The code book scene demonstrates the
basis for the business plan of most of the crypto companies today!)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




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From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jan 22 20:21:58 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:21:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Some other less serious math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101222004380.3031-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101222016350.3031-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Another Crypto-related movie is:
> 
> A Day At The Races by the Marx Bros. (The code book scene demonstrates the
> basis for the business plan of most of the crypto companies today!)

Some would say the last few presidencies have been based upon the Marx
Bros. (Especially "Duck Soup".)

Another couple of "honorable mentions" that come to mind are the "Flint"
movies.  (_Our Man Flint_ and _In Like Flint_.)  Crypto plays a part in
most of the communications.  (Although the mathematical sequence is based
on a guessable series of numbers.)

Others will probably come to mind later...

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




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From: tnjinc at hotmail.com (Zigccess)
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Subject: Make $700- $7000 a Month!
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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan 22 19:53:24 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:53:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122214728.5612n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



9 Billion Names of God

Schismatrix (I liked the killer butterflies and vagina doors myself)

Damian (movie)

Pi (movie)

The Code (movie)

Stigmata (movie)

Sherlock Homes (remember the dancing men?)

And probably the best crypto/code/conspiricy fiction ever written,

Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco.

After thinking about this I realize there is much more
crypto/code/conspiracy in horror/evil/demon/kabala than sci-fi...

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 22 20:14:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:14:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: another math/crypto sci-fi movie
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122221435.5612p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



The Cube

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan 23 00:08:03 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:08:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Math, ethics, futurism, politics...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101222347260.12315-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

>
>
>Even so - in math class I am told "if two reasonable people start from
>the same premises, they should arrive at the same conclusion." In
>philosophy I find that Frege called a failure to apply the same laws of
>logic a "new form of madness." 
>
>In the ethics course, I am told "we always expect reasonable people to
>arrive at *different* conclusions." 
>
>Odd. 

No, it's not at all odd.  Your math prof neglected to mention that 
the two people must also start with the same objectives.  (In math, 
they always assume that people are all motivated to solve the same 
problem...) Your ethics prof neglected to mention that he assumes 
people's objectives, or values, differ in some way.  

If we had a sufficiently advanced model of economics and politics and 
technical advances, and adequate data, we could sit here and mechanically 
forecast the next 200 years. That's math.  Same premises, same value, 
same conclusion.  

But I might find the forecast future horrifying and you might like it. 
That's ethics; same premises, different values, different conclusions.

And the fact is that we don't have that sufficiently advanced model, 
so even if we accept *some* of the same premises, there are judgement 
calls and guesses we will make during the forecast that the two of us 
make differently.  These constitute different premises.  That's 
futurism.  Different premises, Different values, different conclusions.

However, even if we forecast completely different futures, and I see 
some law as being needed to stop the venusians from stealing our 
cattle in 2059 and you figure the same law will be needed to prevent 
banks from enslaving the last surviving mayan tribe under a mountain 
of debt in 2062, we can get together and work for the passage of that 
law.  That's politics.  Some Different premises, Some different values, 
Some of the same conclusions.


				Bear




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan 23 00:57:38 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:57:38 -0800
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010122214728.5612n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010123005738.01b8f8e0@idiom.com>


At 09:53 PM 1/22/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>And probably the best crypto/code/conspiricy fiction ever written,
>
>Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco.

It's worth reading the Illuminatus! trilogy first.
I tried finding that in used book stores a decade or so ago,
and for a while there was a Conspiracy to prevent me from
collecting the whole set....

But yes, Foucault's Pendulum was a howler as well as
having some deep material in it.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From Kronus at rpini.com  Mon Jan 22 17:15:02 2001
From: Kronus at rpini.com (Kronus at rpini.com)
Date: 23 Jan 2001 01:15:02 -0000
Subject: Reno rocks out
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010122100433.009f6770@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <b1b61a9e5fab1d65f43533dcc4d49290@remailer.ch>


At 10:04 AM 1/22/01 -0800, bill.stewart at pobox.com wrote:
>
> At 01:38 AM 1/21/01 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote:
>>
>> For the first time,
>> the inauguration was designated a "National Security Event."
>
> Unfortunately, national security was not protected,
> and the vote-stealer did get inaugurated :-)
>
>
>
>                                Thanks!
>                                        Bill
>

Did 'they' play "Hail to the thief" for our new Thief of State?




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Jan 22 22:27:06 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:27:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010121103458.5612R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




Hi Jim, 

> I'd say it's primarily about entertainment. Even if it's an intentional
> social/technical commentary. There is also the point to be made that
> society is effected more by those things which were unexpected (I don't
> know if 'revolution' is the correct word here???) than evolutionary. The
> change of electricity, the printing press, etc.

This suggests a tangent - If we look at works of fiction which were
politically or socially influential in their day, how many were
entertaining? how many were "good stories"? A lot of polemics end up
seeming transparent and thin today (I'm thinking in particular of
Bellamy's _Looking Backward_, but there are probably other examples). 
They had to capture their audience somehow, which seems to say something
about the audience of the time (or maybe just about the tendency people
have to overlook faults in a book which agrees with them). 

As for things unexpected - maybe it would be interesting to look at the
literature issued just after the possibility of the new invention becomes
known. Atomic power, for instance, was written about by H.G. Wells long
before the atomic bomb was built. Maybe atomic power is too extreme a
case, though. 

Bringing this back to "cypherpunk literature", such a look might provide
parallels with the emergence (or lack thereof) of crypto-oriented fiction. 

> But 'self-referential' is by no means equivalent to 'absolute'. As to your
> last statement, I see we agree. The concept of 'good and bad' and any
> consequent 'definitions' are a function of 'people'. It IS a relative
> issue and therefore open to debate. This is a clear indicator that this
> particular issue is not axiomatic. It is clearly an affect, no more.

Yes, it seems we agree. Except it seems that instead of dismissing
definitions of "good" and "evil" as "an affect, no more" (if I'm reading
you correctly?) - it seems to me that this is where the real battles are
fought. So instead of being dismissive, it seems like a better idea to
*pay attention*. (This may be a sign of youth). 

Even so - in math class I am told "if two reasonable people start from
the same premises, they should arrive at the same conclusion." In
philosophy I find that Frege called a failure to apply the same laws of
logic a "new form of madness." 

In the ethics course, I am told "we always expect reasonable people to
arrive at *different* conclusions." 

Odd. 

> I've always considered 'communitarian' to be a branch of (wait for it),
> 
> socialism. It requires consistency of behaviour, down to the level of

Here I thought you were going to say COMMUNISM! :-) 

I just came across a biography of Robespierre. In it he's mentioned as
writing an essay for a prize competition in the 1770s, in which "under the
influence of Montesquieu" he condemns the republican ideal of <<vertu>> as
requiring unnatural conformity of action and dishonourable actions. Before
turning around and reflecting that the monarchist alternative cannot be
justified on grounds of public utility...well, we know where he eventually 
ends up.  

Anyway, it seems that "community" has taken the place of the "general
will" or "will of the people" as the utopian abstraction of the day. This
is annoying, because there *does* seem to be some merit to talking about a
"community" (or "society" for that matter) as a unit for purposes of
analysis. Even anarchists (especially anarchists?) talk about community.
(Godwin's "public opinion more powerful than whips and chains.")  As soon
as you do so, however, suddenly you've accidentally imported all this
"communitarian" baggage...

> Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution
> L. Margulis, D. Sagan (yes that Sagan, which should id that Margulis :)
> ISBN 0-387-94927-5

Onto the to-skim pile - thanks. 


> alwasy rankled at the concept that 'technical' and 'social' are not sides
> of the same n-sided die called human psychology. Reductionism has its
> place, it is not however, everyplace.

Aren't they considered two sides of the die? I always thought that was the
point of the pervasive "Two Cultures" dichotomy - that you have a binary
opposition between "techs" on the one hand and "humanists" on the other.
Which, like many binary oppositions, fails to satisfy.


> <shrug> A lot of good questions I have no intention of answering :). Make
> up your own set of rules, play them against each other...

Sounds like an invitation to build a genetic algorithm. Heh. 

> There is a certain level of paranoia (recognition of a real threat
> certainly qualifies as paranoia in my book) required to even conjure up
> the concept of security and crypto as an instance...

OK, but this does not strike me as *absurdly* paranoid. I understood your
point to be that any society paranoid enough to use massive amounts of
cryptography would be absurdly paranoid (maybe unstable). Maybe there's a
question of degree here?

Plus not every member of the society must be equally paranoid, once the
infrastructure is in place. How paranoid are my parents when they use SSL
to send credit card info to a web site - without even realizing that
they're using SSL or how it works? Paranoia on the part of a few can
change the lives of many.


> 
> Actually I susepect that society will advance to impliment crypto in the
> background. It will be used to enforce the bounds of each indviduals
> social boundaries. Yes, it does embody 'web-of-trust' but not as the only

So you think we'll end up with "one citizen, one identity?" Do you think
this will be an explicit norm - that people will react to the idea of
having two distinct identities online the way we would to having two
distinct identities in "real life" today? 

It wasn't that long ago that Sherry Turkle's _Life on the Screen_ was
supposed to be *the* account of how "we" were going to relate in
cyberspace. Except that who uses MUDs anymore? Where do we find the open
vistas of text, the vast plains of meaning, the mirror-stage-online which
so beautifully "informed" Turkle's account? Is anyone still talking about
the liberatory power of multiple identity - instead of footnotes in books
about e-commerce noting that web polls can be easily pseudospoofed?

(Plus I found the book much less convincing than _The Second Self_ - maybe
because it strayed from the focus on cognitive development and questions
like "what is alive?" which made _The Second Self_ gripping. Last I heard,
Turkle is back asking kids "what is alive?" with respect to Furbies.
Should be intriguing to see what comes out. )


 > 
> This again, is the reason I believe that the Open Source movement within
> the context of Lessig's book has an opportunity to build a much more
> humane and reasonable society. I also believe the odds are very low it
> will come to pass. Human sollipsism.

"Humane" and "reasonable" ? I'm sure you're right, but those two words do
not inspire much confidence in me right now. (Coming out of a course on
French Social and Political Doctrines 1789-present will do that). 

Frankly, a "humane" and "reasonable" society issuing from Open Source
principles makes me think of a Committee on Public Safety run by Slashdot
readers. (Disclaimer: I am a Slashdot reader). This is no doubt unfair,
but the semi-political pronouncements I've seen from GNU have a nasty
could-be-called "communitarian" streak in them.

> I'm trying to get a Plan 9 network up and running to do just that now for 
> Plan 9 users here in Austin. Offer a 'virtual community' workspace that
> users can map into their personal namespace (ooh, another web-of-trust ;).

Oh, cool. Some friends of mine are working with Plan 9. I'll have to check
this out at some point...I've been too busy to pay much attention. 


> I believe the point would be that society would progress beyond the need
> for such things. What this will engender will be a return to 'family' or
> 'zaibatsu' centered human societies. Economies based on competition won't
> exist because each community will share the resources as required. It will
> be a large barter commune. The interfaces between these 'arcologies' will
> be very well defended and about the only place 'trade' will take place and
> that will be through information exchange not the actual exchange of
> goods. Why? Because each arcology will be self-suffient within the domain
> of its ownings.

Perhaps. I'm wary of making these kinds of pronouncements. It's a
curve-fitting problem. "Here are six events - build a trend around them." 
The rise of planned communities (including Summerlin, where I live in
Nevada) *could* point the way towards arcologies and master-planned
living. It could also engender a backlash which ends up with everyone
going back to live in the cities to create closer communities with their
fellow (wo)man. 

Can you imagine a latter-day Gandhi who exhorts people to move back to the
cities to live with each other again? No? Why? 

Yes? Why arcologies and not Gandhi? 

Then our entire deliberations are blown to bits by advances in
nanotechnology...

> 
> Remember you've got 20 generations alive at the same time. 'Family' is set
> to return with a vengeance.

It would provide large family-owned corporations with even more
interesting politics than they might currently posess, that's for sure.

An alternative may be that the generation gap asserts itself with a
vengeance. Dad and Jr. can't get along - what about Dad and the 17th?
Instead of isolating vertically, societies isolate horizontally. Lots of
parallel institutions with mandatory minimum and mandatory retirement
ages. Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
the society born before them. 

So all this is fine, but I dislike saying that this is what "will happen." 

> My guess is we've got a space of about 200 years to get off this mudball
> and get out there. If we don't we'll drown in our own waste. The end

I tend to agree with you - but I also remember that in the 70's we had
predictions of world disaster by the 00's. Not quite there yet. Still
Malthus has to be right in the long run...

Anyway, I want space for less easily justifiable reasons. Such as "what's
out there?" and "we can do it." Also I want to go (was into space before
ever heard of cryptography) :-). Unfortunately I'm too tall and too heavy
to make the trip on anything NASA has right now. Besides my family
history of heart trouble. 


> 
> But you're talking about developing a society, not a group of friends that
> numbers in a few hundred...

If the will is there, it will be developed. Look at what's going to happen
to electronic voting now. After Florida, people really seem to want it.
MIT and Cal Tech have announced an initiative to build a "real" system.
Build a market by building consensus and the technology will step up.

(I suppose I should dispute in passing the dichotomy between a society and
"a group of friends that numbers in a few hundred" - but the fundamental
point seems to be scaling. Which is a problem no matter what you call the
user.)

The reason why remailers are limited to a group of friends that numbers in
a few hundred is that no one has articulated a clear and compelling reason
to "everybody" why "everybody" needs to use them. People have argued why
"everybody" needs remailers *around* or why they're a good thing, or at
least why *not to ban them*, but this is different. 

No one is advertising for anonymous remailers on the radio. No one is on
the television talking about how we need a national network of anonymous
remailers. No one seems to be making any money off the things, *except*
maybe zks.net . Change this and we get the infrastructure for a society. 

-David 





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan 23 01:28:29 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:28:29 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010121103458.5612R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010123012829.01b89860@idiom.com>


At 01:27 AM 1/23/01 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>This suggests a tangent - If we look at works of fiction which were
>politically or socially influential in their day, how many were
>entertaining? how many were "good stories"? A lot of polemics end up
>seeming transparent and thin today (I'm thinking in particular of
>Bellamy's _Looking Backward_, but there are probably other examples). 
>They had to capture their audience somehow, which seems to say something
>about the audience of the time (or maybe just about the tendency people
>have to overlook faults in a book which agrees with them). 

There's always Ayn Rand - "The Fountainhead" has at least some
depth of characters, as opposed to her later and more polemic
	<fnord>"Telemachus Sneezed", with the 600-page speech
	by John Guilt</fnord>
"Atlas Shrugged", with its much thinner characters and
increased preachiness.

On the other hand, a lot of Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings haven't
passed the physical tests of time, and I gather geodesic domes
tend to leak even if they're not built as badly as 
those that Some Local Cypherpunks are living in - we'll see how
geodesic economies do...
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan 23 01:55:39 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:55:39 -0800
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <20010118111544.B23662@cluebot.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010118185429.038e5d50@flex.com>
 <01011913525606.14779@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010119160913.00c9cef0@flex.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010120083037.024d7f88@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <p04320426b6930532abcd@[10.1.1.42]>


>     --
>On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:13:32PM -1000, Reese wrote:
>>  > Then why were the troops laying siege to the compound, instead of
>>  > snatching koresh when he made one of his frequent trips into town?
>
>At 11:54 PM 1/19/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>  Because sometimes a show of force is perceved as necessary.
>>
>>  Heck, employers do it to employees all the time.
>
>I cannot recall any employer ever calling security to stick guns in my face.

	We did the reverse to the CEO today.

	He joking claimed he was going to fire the Ops and IT departments.

	The four of us, comprising about 1/2 the Ops/IT staff, 
including one of the directors cheered.

	The look on his face couldn't be purchased with MasterCard.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From ccerp at sapmea.asn.au  Tue Jan 23 02:07:16 2001
From: ccerp at sapmea.asn.au (ccerp at sapmea.asn.au)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:07:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Invitation to International Nursing & Midwifery Conference, Adelaide, November 2001
Message-ID: <200101231007.CAA16280@toad.com>


___________________________________________________________
        4th Biennial International Nursing and Midwifery Conference:
Contesting Conversations in Practice, Education, Research and Policy

          Adelaide Convention Centre, Adelaide, South Australia
                    Sunday 4th - Wednesday 7th November 2001

               Keynote Presenters:

                         Patricia Benner (USA)
                         Philip Darbyshire (Australia)
                         Cindy Shannon (Australia)
                         Paul Lewis (UK)
                         Gary Rolfe (UK)

Dear Colleague,

Since its inception in 1995, the International Connecting Conversations Conference series has become one of the most stimulating, interactive, enjoyable and valuable events in the nursing and midwifery calendar.

This year's conference in Adelaide, Australia will be no exception.  We once again bring together internationally renowned keynote presenters, and recognised expert pre and post conference workshop presenters, with nurses, midwives and other health care professionals to debate and discuss vital issues, to share new initiatives and exciting innovations in research, education and practice and to network with leading national and international colleagues.

On behalf of the Conference Organising Committee, I invite you to join us for this important event.  This is the ideal forum to present and discuss your research, showcase your practice initiative or clinical advance, highlight your educational innovation, or add your critique of a current health or professional issue.  

         The deadline for submission of abstracts is 5.00 pm, March 30th, 2001.

All of the contact details and information regarding abstract submission, travel and tourism are available on the conference web page at:

                 www.sapmea.asn.au/Conventions/CCERP/ccerp.htm 

Visit this page to register your interest or to request any information about the conference or about making that trip to Australia that you've been promising yourself.
We look forward very much to welcoming you to Adelaide in November.

Very best wishes

Professor Philip Darbyshire
CCERP Conference Organising Committee

NB:   I do apologise if this information has reached you in error.  This is a 'once only'
         message which will not be sent again.






From hole101 at msn.com  Mon Jan 22 23:15:26 2001
From: hole101 at msn.com (hole101 at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:15:26 -0500
Subject: !!!Mortgage Rates DROP! Lenders COMPETE for your Business!!! -garcf
Message-ID: <3rjwwv4c43xt8mot7i7.v8d52g00xe1g@xrrg3f87.localhost>

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From ccerp at sapmea.asn.au  Tue Jan 23 01:54:51 2001
From: ccerp at sapmea.asn.au (ccerp at sapmea.asn.au)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 03:54:51 -0600
Subject: Invitation to International Nursing & Midwifery Conference, Adelaide, November 2001
Message-ID: <200101230954.f0N9soO28593@ak47.algebra.com>


___________________________________________________________
        4th Biennial International Nursing and Midwifery Conference:
Contesting Conversations in Practice, Education, Research and Policy

          Adelaide Convention Centre, Adelaide, South Australia
                    Sunday 4th - Wednesday 7th November 2001

               Keynote Presenters:

                         Patricia Benner (USA)
                         Philip Darbyshire (Australia)
                         Cindy Shannon (Australia)
                         Paul Lewis (UK)
                         Gary Rolfe (UK)

Dear Colleague,

Since its inception in 1995, the International Connecting Conversations Conference series has become one of the most stimulating, interactive, enjoyable and valuable events in the nursing and midwifery calendar.

This year's conference in Adelaide, Australia will be no exception.  We once again bring together internationally renowned keynote presenters, and recognised expert pre and post conference workshop presenters, with nurses, midwives and other health care professionals to debate and discuss vital issues, to share new initiatives and exciting innovations in research, education and practice and to network with leading national and international colleagues.

On behalf of the Conference Organising Committee, I invite you to join us for this important event.  This is the ideal forum to present and discuss your research, showcase your practice initiative or clinical advance, highlight your educational innovation, or add your critique of a current health or professional issue.  

         The deadline for submission of abstracts is 5.00 pm, March 30th, 2001.

All of the contact details and information regarding abstract submission, travel and tourism are available on the conference web page at:

                 www.sapmea.asn.au/Conventions/CCERP/ccerp.htm 

Visit this page to register your interest or to request any information about the conference or about making that trip to Australia that you've been promising yourself.
We look forward very much to welcoming you to Adelaide in November.

Very best wishes

Professor Philip Darbyshire
CCERP Conference Organising Committee

NB:   I do apologise if this information has reached you in error.  This is a 'once only'
         message which will not be sent again.






From foobar_2001 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 23 02:14:17 2001
From: foobar_2001 at hotmail.com (Foobulus Baracculus)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 05:14:17 -0500
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi 
Message-ID: <F101CXRU6W5Kc5yraNi00000836@hotmail.com>



I enjoy a scene from a recent Bond film - where James is called on the 
telephone whilst he is in a compromising position with an academic at 
Cambridge University. He suavely navigates the telephone call, and when 
finished, his female companion remarks "James, you were always a such 
cunning linguist". My memory of the scene may differ slightly, but hopefully 
you pick up the play on words. The academic was a languages specialist, and 
if course, she was gorgeous.

Foobulus Barraculus

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan 23 05:22:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:22:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Some other less serious math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101222016350.3031-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123072124.5612q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Another couple of "honorable mentions" that come to mind are the "Flint"
> movies.  (_Our Man Flint_ and _In Like Flint_.)  Crypto plays a part in
> most of the communications.  (Although the mathematical sequence is based
> on a guessable series of numbers.)

Wimp! Matt Helm rules! (Flint's out on DVD now, I love his alarm clock
watch).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan 23 05:27:03 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:27:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010123005738.01b8f8e0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123072336.5612s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> It's worth reading the Illuminatus! trilogy first.
> I tried finding that in used book stores a decade or so ago,
> and for a while there was a Conspiracy to prevent me from
> collecting the whole set....

I just knew somebody was going to bring Wilson's trilogy up. I think
there are actually four books (a conspiracy by the Gnomes of Zurich I
bet), I've seen the first three bound together in pbk.

I found it tedious and much less than funny. To each their own. I did like
the card game that Steve Jackson Games did for it. It's still available
(do we have a new category, crypto/math games?).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From Lori at bornagn.com  Tue Jan 23 05:51:51 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:51:51 -0600
Subject: Hi.
Message-ID: <000b01c08543$a3824320$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>

I just read an interesting email that you sent concerning cracking .pwl files.  I have a need to crack a .pwl file, but I don't know how to make that program work.  I'm really not computer literate (if you can't tell).  I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is not good regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find out what these passwords are or how to work that program?  I downloaded some sort of password pwl program and it showed 17 passwords, but they are encrypted.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mrs. Banks
-------------- next part --------------
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Jan 23 08:14:13 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:14:13 -0800
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi 
Message-ID: <3A6DADD5.7508CCB9@lsil.com>


>Fubar wrote:
>
> I enjoy a scene from a recent Bond film - where James is called on the 
> telephone whilst he is in a compromising position with an academic at 
> Cambridge University. He suavely navigates the telephone call, and when 
> finished, his female companion remarks "James, you were always a such 
> cunning linguist". My memory of the scene may differ slightly, but hopefully 
> you pick up the play on words. The academic was a languages specialist, and 
> if course, she was gorgeous.
> 
That joke predates the Pierce Brosnan Bond movie by decades - making the
use of it stale and crusty.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan 23 09:24:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:24:40 -0800
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <3A6DADD5.7508CCB9@lsil.com>
References: <3A6DADD5.7508CCB9@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6936e4b6ca5@[207.111.241.38]>


At 8:14 AM -0800 1/23/01, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>  >Fubar wrote:
>>
>>  I enjoy a scene from a recent Bond film - where James is called on the
>>  telephone whilst he is in a compromising position with an academic at
>>  Cambridge University. He suavely navigates the telephone call, and when
>>  finished, his female companion remarks "James, you were always a such
>>  cunning linguist". My memory of the scene may differ slightly, but hopefully
>>  you pick up the play on words. The academic was a languages specialist, and
>>  if course, she was gorgeous.
>>
>That joke predates the Pierce Brosnan Bond movie by decades - making the
>use of it stale and crusty.

Indeed, we were using it as schoolkids some 30 years ago, and we 
weren't the first.

However, in that same Bond flick, if I am remembering correctly, 
there is a much fresher witticism.

Bond's boss, played by Judi Dench, comments on his late arrival.

Bond: "Don't ask..."

Dench: "Don't _tell_."



--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Jan 23 08:11:23 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:11:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123072336.5612s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101231110270.18907-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> I found it tedious and much less than funny. To each their own. I did like
> the card game that Steve Jackson Games did for it. It's still available
> (do we have a new category, crypto/math games?).

I've had the idea of "collectible algorithm trading cards" kicking around
for a while...

-David




From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Tue Jan 23 08:37:18 2001
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:37:18 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Federal government creates new secret ?Gun Police?
Message-ID: <200101231649.f0NGn7O08906@ak47.algebra.com>


==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>From: CILA / ICAL National Office <teebee at sprint.ca>
>To: 
>Subject: Federal government creates new secret ?Gun Police?
>Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:31:58 -0500

CILA / ICAL               
Defending Canada's Heritage

----------------------------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
----------------------------------------------

January 21, 2001

Federal government creates new secret "Gun Police"

The Federal government has secretly created a new federal police force in
Canada called the "National Firearms Enforcement Support Team (NFEST)".

This unit will be headed by Bob Frolic, formerly the leader of Ontario's
controversial "Provincial Weapons Enforcement Unit".  Mr. Frolic has headed
the PWEU for the last five years and has proven himself to be extremely
aggressive towards legitimate firearms owners.  Frolic first came to the 
attention of the public when his PWEU arrested ten legitimate firearms owners 
in Halton Region for neglecting to change their addresses on their firearms 
registrations.

More recently, several lawsuits have been filed against the Unit for
harassment and wrongful arrest.  The Unit has also been involved in several
questionable tactics such as the coercion of paid informants and the 
photographing and recording of license plate numbers at both Canadian and U.S. 
gun shows.  As well, the Unit routinely trains with the notorious U.S. Bureau 
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and conducts numerous undercover 
operations in legitimate activities such as gun shows.  The Unit also boasts 
an abysmal conviction record.

When questioned, a CFC Information Officer would only confirm the existence
of the new federal police unit.  The Officer was extremely evasive regarding
the following questions:

- What is the NWEST's mandate?
- How is NWEST funded and how much will it cost to operate?
- How many Agents (Officers?) will NWEST have?
- Why have these firearms enforcement duties been taken away from the RCMP?
- What relationship will this unit have with the BATF?
- Does the government have to pass legislation to create this new federal
  police force?
- Will information collected by NWEST be routinely shared with BATF?

BATF activity in Canada is on a steady increase, not only in training our
law enforcement community but also in the conducting of operations.  
Information regarding both law abiding Americans and Canadians is regularly 
exchanged.

Has the BATF "officially" come to Canada?

The NWEST Unit is yet another hidden cost of C-68.  Why do we need "Gun
Cops" in the first place?  Canada has one of the lowest incidents of firearms
crime in the free world and the setting up of a secret federal police force to
violate the lives of ordinary Canadians is an expensive, intrusive
undertaking our country can ill afford.


-30-

For more information contact:

Canadian Institute for Legislative Action / Institut Canadien pour l'Action
Législative

National Office:
P.O.Box 44030,  600 Grandview St. S.  Oshawa, ON.  L1H 8P4
Ph: (905) 571-2150 Fax: (905) 436-7721  e-mail:  teebee at sprint.ca

Administrative Services: (905) 725-1615

Ottawa Office:
27 Cedar Grove Crt.  Nepean, ON.  K2G 0M4
Ph: (613) 828-8805 Fax: (613) 828-6967  e-mail: aldorans at magma.ca

Legal Services
16 John St. Thornhill, ON  L3T 1X8
PH: (904)882-2422 Fax: (905) 882-2431 e-mail: e.burlew at cila.org

Home:   <http://www.cila.org/>http://www.cila.org

A proud member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities / 
Forum du Monde sur le Futur d'Activités des Sports des Armes à Feu  


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================









From bf at farc.org  Tue Jan 23 08:42:05 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:42:05 -0500
Subject: Lori Banks Necropedophile Spawn
Message-ID: <3A6DB426.99B70273@farc.org>


"Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com> writes:
>I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is not
good >regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find out
what these >passwords are or how to work that program?

We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a
homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin for
Osama.  He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in Semtex,
so chill out, bitch.  Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you just
talk to him?













From adturkze at emirates.net.ae  Tue Jan 23 00:20:49 2001
From: adturkze at emirates.net.ae (adturkze)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:20:49 +0400
Subject: free realplayer download
Message-ID: <NEBBIOGEGKDEOJCGMMEDIEIECAAA.adturkze@emirates.net.ae>






From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Jan 23 11:05:37 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:05:37 -0600
Subject: The Register - Top WWII Code Cracker Dead
Message-ID: <3A6DD601.8ADB52FD@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/16308.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Jan 23 14:08:00 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:08:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123150523.5612t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231406380.6394-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > (do we have a new category, crypto/math games?).
> > 
> > I've had the idea of "collectible algorithm trading cards" kicking around
> > for a while...
> 
> "Magic, the math edition!"...(somebody walking on grave)

You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now owned by
Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From John at bornagn.com  Tue Jan 23 12:11:32 2001
From: John at bornagn.com (John Banks)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:11:32 -0600
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <00cb01c0856f$324942e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net> <007f01c08589$9b2fd1b0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <016201c08578$ae713b80$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>


Just forget my request ... I'll find the help I need somewhere else.  Get a
life ... you're all sick.  Sincerely, Mrs. Banks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Me" <commerce at home.com>
To: <cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>; <Lori at bornagn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
> >If you are unable to help me, no response would
> >have been better than the one you sent.
>
> The response we sent is a narn bat sqaud, they should be arriving
> shortly.
>
> Additionally, accomodations are being made for your son at a
> Cypherpunks safe house, where he will will have all the privacy
> he wants as he views his kidporn.
>
>
>




From qcscr at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 23 04:47:12 2001
From: qcscr at yahoo.com (Anders)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:47:12 +0300
Subject: =?koi8-r?B?4snazsXTLiDywcLP1MEuIPvBztMu?=
Message-ID: <6917336228.20010123154712@yahoo.com>


zDRAWSTWUJTE dOROGOJ POLXZOWATELX iNTERNET!

dELAQ  PROSTYE BANKOWSKIE TRANZAKCII SO SWOEGO KOMPX at TERA, UVE SEGODNQ
wY  MOVETE  ZARABATYWATX  OT  $1000  W  MESQC.  nIKAKIH  MLM I PIRAMID.
lEGALXNO  I  ZAKONNO.

kAVDYJ  MILLIONER  I  BILLIONER  SEGODNQ ISPOLXZUET \TI PRINCIPY I \TU
SISTEMU DLQ SOZDANIQ BOGATSTWA I USPEHA. nE WAVNO KTO wY - DOMOHOZQJKA
ILI  STUDENT,  BEZRABOTNYJ ILI ZANQTYJ ^ELOWEK. dOSTATO^NO 1-GO ^ASA W
DENX.

mY  DAEM  WAM  W  RUKI  SAMU@  BYSTRU@, SAMU@ PROSTU@ TEHNIKU SOZDANIQ
BOGATSTWA, USPEHA I PROCWETANIQ. nA[A TEHNIKA O^ENX PROSTAQ, BYSTRAQ I
MO]NAQ!

mY PREDLAGAEM wAM TO, W ^EM UBEVDENY SAMI.
tO, ^TO DELAET DOSTOJNYH L at DEJ MILLIONERAMI.
oT wAS TREBUETSQ TOLXKO wa{e VELANIE:
http://zor.org/qc/

uDA^I I USPEHOW wAM
W nOWOM gODU!!!
bUDXTE s^ASTLIWY!

-- 
aNDERS l at TERMAN.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan 23 13:53:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:53:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101231110270.18907-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123150523.5612t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> > (do we have a new category, crypto/math games?).
> 
> I've had the idea of "collectible algorithm trading cards" kicking around
> for a while...

"Magic, the math edition!"...(somebody walking on grave)

That reminds me of a game called 'Equations' (I think) that I used to play
when I was in Jr. High and early High School. I've still got a copy but
can't put my hands on it for specifics...if I find it I'll pass info
along...but each player created 'equations' and played them off each other
like Scrabble. The game was challenging because the 'symbols' had to be
taken from a pile each player drew from, and equations had to be correct.
It covered basic algebra but calculus or number theory and such wouldn't
be that much more difficult to add. Though you'd need a larger symbol
pile/pull that might need some massaging.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------









From Lori at bornagn.com  Tue Jan 23 13:08:53 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:08:53 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
Message-ID: <00cb01c0856f$324942e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>

Mr. Blank Frank,

I simply asked for your assistance -- none of your repulsive filth was due me.  It's people like you -- or the perception that you tried to give me of you that I am trying to protect my son against.  When deception, filth, dishonesty, and the such as you have displayed rule this world ... when talking isn't the answer, a parent has the responsibilty to care for their child.  Perhaps you are not a parent, or you never had a parent that cared enough to protect -- but, I am one that will fight to the bitter end to protect the innocence of my children.  I simply asked for you assistance in cracking the .pwl file and your response was nothing to do with that request.  If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better than the one you sent.  I'm sorry that misery seems to emmanate from you -- there's a Peace that can be found in Your Creator ... may He bless you today.

Sincerely,
Mrs. Banks

> "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com> writes:
> >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is not
> good >regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find out
> what these >passwords are or how to work that program?
>
> We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a
> homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin for
> Osama.  He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in Semtex,
> so chill out, bitch.  Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you just
> talk to him?

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From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Jan 23 16:09:56 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:09:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <016201c08578$ae713b80$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231609320.6394-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, John Banks wrote:

> Just forget my request ... I'll find the help I need somewhere else.  Get a
> life ... you're all sick.  Sincerely, Mrs. Banks

Actually they are trying to piss you off.

And they have won.

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Me" <commerce at home.com>
> To: <cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com>; <Lori at bornagn.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
> 
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
> > >If you are unable to help me, no response would
> > >have been better than the one you sent.
> >
> > The response we sent is a narn bat sqaud, they should be arriving
> > shortly.
> >
> > Additionally, accomodations are being made for your son at a
> > Cypherpunks safe house, where he will will have all the privacy
> > he wants as he views his kidporn.
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Tue Jan 23 13:24:57 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:24:57 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <00cb01c0856f$324942e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <3A6DF6A3.17F075CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Ms. Banks, the sanctimonious slut who just asked us to commit a felony
for her, may be found at:
[whois.crsnic.net]

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Domain Name: BORNAGN.COM
   Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
   Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
   Referral URL: www.networksolutions.com
   Name Server: NS.IQTINC.COM
   Name Server: NS2.IQTINC.COM
   Updated Date: 22-jun-1999


>>> Last update of whois database: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:28:39 EST <<<

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
Registrars.


[whois.networksolutions.com]
The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network
Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining
information about or related to a domain name registration record.
Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy.  By submitting a
WHOIS query, you agree that you will use this Data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail
(spam); or  (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to Network Solutions (or its systems).  Network Solutions
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.  By submitting
this query, you agree to abide by this policy.

Registrant:
Bornagn Farms Food & Homestead Services (BORNAGN-DOM)
   4266 Old Rome Pike
   Lebanon, TN 37087
   US

   Domain Name: BORNAGN.COM

   Administrative Contact, Billing Contact:
      Banks, Lori  (LB10530)  bornaganusa at AOL.COM
      Bornagn Farms Food & Homestead Services
      4266 Old Rome Pike
      Lebanon , TN 37087
      615-449-8889
   Technical Contact:
      InfoQuest Technologies, Inc.  (IT97-ORG)  hostmaster at IQTINC.COM
      InfoQuest Technologies, Inc.
      6400 Flank Drive, Suite 900
      Harrisburg, PA 17112  US
      1-800-622-4403 Fax- 717-541-8325 Fax- - 717-541-8325

   Record last updated on 22-Jun-1999.
   Record expires on 22-Jun-2001.
   Record created on 22-Jun-1999.
   Database last updated on 23-Jan-2001 07:59:22 EST.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.IQTINC.COM                206.205.38.5
   NS2.IQTINC.COM               205.216.54.5





From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Jan 23 13:25:01 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:25:01 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0856f$324942e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231330320.6394-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:

> Mr. Blank Frank,
> 
> I simply asked for your assistance -- none of your repulsive filth was due me.  It's people like you -- or the perception that you tried to give me of you that I am trying to protect my son against.  When deception, filth, dishonesty, and the such as you have displayed rule this world ... when talking isn't the answer, a parent has the responsibilty to care for their child.  Perhaps you are not a parent, or you never had a parent that cared enough to protect -- but, I am one that will fight to the bitter end to protect the innocence of my children.  I simply asked for you assistance in cracking the .pwl file and your response was nothing to do with that request.  If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better than the one you sent.  I'm sorry that misery seems to emmanate from you -- there's a Peace that can be found in Your Creator ... may He bless you today.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mrs. Banks

Your children are less "innocent" than they appear.

By keeping them in a state of ignorance about the world you are doing them
an incredible disservice.  (When they leave your "protection", they will
be totally unable to cope with the world around them.)

If you don't want them exposed to "filth" (as you call it), you need to
not be connected to the net AT ALL.

Filters are based on fraud.  Pure and simple.

I feel more sorry for your kid at this point.  He will have to do a GREAT
deal of growing up AFTER he leaves home.  (Because he obviously is not
being allowed to do so now.)

> 
> > "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com> writes:
> > >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is not
> > good >regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find out
> > what these >passwords are or how to work that program?
> >
> > We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a
> > homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin for
> > Osama.  He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in Semtex,
> > so chill out, bitch.  Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you just
> > talk to him?
> 
> 

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From Lori at bornagn.com  Tue Jan 23 13:50:35 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:50:35 -0500
Subject: Fw: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
Message-ID: <012b01c08574$fe4e0380$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>



----- Original Message -----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
To: "Alan Olsen" <alan at clueserver.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> By the way, why are you sending our emails to a list of recipients
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net?  If you were the one that originally responded to
> me ... which I can't even tell ... first it's bf at farc.org , then it's
> alan at clueserver.org ... and who knows next .... or, are you all different
> people ... I'm just a concerned Mom ... and confused at this point. Any
> assistance will be greatly appreciated -- please don't give me the
> run-around.... remember the Golden Rule?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Olsen" <alan at clueserver.org>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> Cc: <lori at bornagn.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
>
>
> > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:
> >
> > > Mr. Blank Frank,
> > >
> > > I simply asked for your assistance -- none of your repulsive filth was
> due me.  It's people like you -- or the perception that you tried to give
me
> of you that I am trying to protect my son against.  When deception, filth,
> dishonesty, and the such as you have displayed rule this world ... when
> talking isn't the answer, a parent has the responsibilty to care for their
> child.  Perhaps you are not a parent, or you never had a parent that cared
> enough to protect -- but, I am one that will fight to the bitter end to
> protect the innocence of my children.  I simply asked for you assistance
in
> cracking the .pwl file and your response was nothing to do with that
> request.  If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better
> than the one you sent.  I'm sorry that misery seems to emmanate from
you --
> there's a Peace that can be found in Your Creator ... may He bless you
> today.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Mrs. Banks
> >
> > Your children are less "innocent" than they appear.
> >
> > By keeping them in a state of ignorance about the world you are doing
them
> > an incredible disservice.  (When they leave your "protection", they will
> > be totally unable to cope with the world around them.)
> >
> > If you don't want them exposed to "filth" (as you call it), you need to
> > not be connected to the net AT ALL.
> >
> > Filters are based on fraud.  Pure and simple.
> >
> > I feel more sorry for your kid at this point.  He will have to do a
GREAT
> > deal of growing up AFTER he leaves home.  (Because he obviously is not
> > being allowed to do so now.)
> >
> > >
> > > > "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com> writes:
> > > > >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is
> not
> > > > good >regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find
out
> > > > what these >passwords are or how to work that program?
> > > >
> > > > We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a
> > > > homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin
for
> > > > Osama.  He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in
> Semtex,
> > > > so chill out, bitch.  Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you
> just
> > > > talk to him?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
> > Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
> >     "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
> >
> >
>





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From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 23 14:12:41 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:12:41 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <00cb01c0856f$324942e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <007f01c08589$9b2fd1b0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
>If you are unable to help me, no response would
>have been better than the one you sent.

The response we sent is a narn bat sqaud, they should be arriving
shortly.

Additionally, accomodations are being made for your son at a
Cypherpunks safe house, where he will will have all the privacy
he wants as he views his kidporn.





From tmay at e-machines.net  Tue Jan 23 17:43:15 2001
From: tmay at e-machines.net (TROY MAY)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:43:15 -0800
Subject: Parents of 15 yr.old Find $71,000 cash hidden in his closet 
Message-ID: <008d01c085a7$07c72c20$7ca80e3f@oemcomputer>

Parents of 15 yr.old Find $71,000 cash hidden in his closet 
& "CASH JUST KEEPS COMING IN MY MAIL" ! ! 

Dear Friend, It Works, Its Legal, Its Easy, so Why Not? Parents of 15-year-old find $71,000 cash hidden in his closet. 

Does this headline look familiar? Of course it does. You most likely have just seen this story recently featured on a major nightly news program (USA). 

His mother was cleaning and putting laundry away when she came across a large brown paper bag that was suspiciously buried beneath some clothes and a skateboard in the back of her 15-year-old sons closet. Nothing could have prepared her for the shock she got when she opened the bag and found it was full of cash. Five-dollar bills, twenties, fifties and hundreds - all neatly rubber-banded in labeled piles. 

"My first thought was that he had robbed a bank", says the 41-year-old woman, "There was over $71,000 dollars in that bag -- thats more than my husband earns in a year". The woman immediately called her husband at the car-dealership where he worked to tell him what she had discovered. He came home right away and they drove together to the boys school and picked him up. Little did they suspect that where the money came from was more shocking than actually finding it in the closet. 

As it turns out, the boy had been sending out, via E-mail, a type of "chain-letter" to E-mail addresses that he obtained off of the Internet. Everyday after school for the past 2 months, he had been doing this right on his computer in his bedroom."I just got the E-mail one day and I figured what the heck, I put my name on it like the instructions said and I started sending it out", says the clever 15-year-old. 

The E-mail letter listed 3 addresses and contained instructions to send one $5 dollar bill to each person on the list, then delete the address at the top and move the other 2 addresses up, and finally to add your name to the bottom of the list. 

The letter goes on to state that you would receive several thousand dollars in five-dollar bills within 2 weeks if you sent out the letter with your name at the bottom of the 3-address list. "I get junk E-mail all the time, and I really did not think it was going to work", the boy continues. Within the first few days of sending out the E-mail, the Post Office Box that his parents had gotten him for his video-game magazine subscriptions began to fill up with not magazines, but envelopes containing $5 bills. 

"About a week later I rode [my bike] down to the post office and my box had 1 magazine and about 300 envelops stuffed in it. There was also a yellow slip that said I had to go up to the [post office] counter. I thought I was in trouble or something (laughs)". He goes on, "I went up to the counter and they had a whole box of more mail for me. I had to ride back home and empty out my backpack because I could not carry it all". 

Over the next few weeks, the boy continued sending out the E-mail. "The money just kept coming in and I just kept sorting it and stashing it in the closet, I barely had time for my homework". He had also been riding his bike to several of the banks in his area and exchanging the $5 bills for twenties, fifties and hundreds. 

"I didnt want the banks to get suspicious so I kept riding to different banks with like five thousand at a time in my backpack.I would usually tell the lady at the bank counter that my dad had sent me in [to exchange the money] and he was outside waiting for me. One time the lady gave me a really strange look and told me that she would not be able to do it for me and my dad would have to come in and do it, but I just rode to the next bank down the street (laughs)." 

Surprisingly, the boy did not have any reason to be afraid. The reporting news team examined and investigated the so-called "chain-letter" the boy was sending out and found that it was not a chain-letter at all. In fact, it was completely legal according to US Postal and Lottery Laws, Title 18, Section 1302 and 1341, or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US code, also in the code of federal regulations, Volume 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received. 

Every five-dollar bill that he received contained a little note that read, "Please add me to your mailing list". This simple note made the letter legal because he was exchanging a service (adding the purchasers name to his mailing list) for a five-dollar fee. 

Here is the letter that the 15-year-old was sending out by E-mail, you can do the exact same thing he was doing, simply by following the instructions in this letter. Here are instructions on how to make $10,000 US cash in the next 2 weeks: ("to help you with your mailing list") 

There are 3 addresses listed below. 

Send EACH PERSON on the list a $5 bill wrapped in 2 pieces of paper (to securely hide it), along with a note that says: "Please add me to your mailing list". 

Then delete the name at the top, move the other 2 up and put your name at the bottom. 

Now start sending this ENTIRE e-mail back out to people. When 20 people receive it, those 20 people will move your name up to the middle position and they will each send out 20. That totals 400 people that will receive this letter with your name in the middle. 

Then, those 400 people will move your name up to the top and they will each send out 20 E-mails. That totals 8,000 people that will receive this E-mail with your name on it and they will each send you a $5 bill, 

8,000 people each sending you a $5 bill = $40,000 cash, Thats if everyone responds to this E-mail, but not everyone will,so you can expect more realistically to receive about $10,000 cash $5 bills in your mailbox, 

This will work for anyone, anywhere in the world in any country, but send only US CASH $5 bill. 

The more E-mails you send out, the more cash you will receive, If each person sends out 100 E-mails, there will be 1,000,000 people that receive this letter with your name on it. If only 1% of those people respond, you will still get $50,000 cash, 

Here is the list: (Send US $5 bill to EACH PERSON on the list.Total= $15) 

#1.Mary jones P.O. Box 261 Norman, OK 73070

#2.Joyce Nattrass, 18 Wentworth Way, Hunmanby, Filey, North Yorkshire, UK YO14 OLA

#3.Troy May, 6131 OLD PLANK RD. WINSTON SALEM, NC 27106 

THERES NOTHING MORE TO DO. When you start sending this out within a few days, you will start receiving $5 bills from other people just like yourself, who are willing to invest three $5 bills to receive $10,000 cash, 

EVERYONE on this list gets Paid EVERY TIME invest $15 & get your name on the list, you will not regret it ! 

Just Think...If every person who got this did it the Results would be PHENOMENAL ! ! ! Try it, all you have to loose is $15 & the chances of you loosing the $15 are VERY,VERY,Slim. 

If you dont try it- you will never know. 

** Remember to send a $5 bill to EVERY PERSON on the list,=$15.SENDING THE MONEY is what makes this work. 

NOTICE: This is NOT a lottery,illegal chain-letter,or scheme.You are BUYING A SERVICE.(US Postal and Lottery Laws,Title 18,Section 1302 and 1341,or Title 18,Section 3005in the US code,also in the code of federal regulations,Volume16,Sections 255 and 436,which state a product or service must be exchanged for money received.) You are paying $15 to be added to 3 mailing lists($5 per list) The $15 is not refundable. 

This is the new way of the new millennium! God Bless You

 

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From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan 23 15:32:49 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:32:49 -0500
Subject: Fw: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <012b01c08574$fe4e0380$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101231434270.7349-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:

>> By the way, why are you sending our emails to a list of recipients
>> cypherpunks at openpgp.net?  If you were the one that originally responded to
>> me ... which I can't even tell ... first it's bf at farc.org , then it's
>> alan at clueserver.org ... and who knows next .... or, are you all different
>> people ... I'm just a concerned Mom ... and confused at this point. Any
>> assistance will be greatly appreciated -- please don't give me the
>> run-around.... remember the Golden Rule?


Ms. Banks; 

My Great-grandparents believed firmly in protecting their children 
from the evils of the money-dominated society and worldly hypocrisy 
they saw around them.  They refused electricity, plumbing, motorcars, 
and other modern conveniences in order to live a simpler lifestyle 
close to God and as part of a reality they understood. I have not 
much in common with them, but before they passed we at least learned 
to respect and understand one another and became friends.  So, I do 
understand your desire to "protect" your children from the set of 
influences that can be encountered in the wide world.  

However, I cannot condone your efforts to teach them anything useful 
or to protect them from anything threatening by cracking their 
password files.  First, it is rude to do so; in cryptographic 
discussions, people who undertake to break the security of others 
are referred to as "enemy" for a reason.  Second, it is cowardly. 
You are trying to avoid a confrontation by doing this covertly, but 
consider the consequences:  If you don't find anything, then you 
have invaded the privacy of innocents and cannot ask their forgiveness.
And if you do find something, then you will confront people with the 
knowledge that you committed a crime against them, and at the same 
time, try to treat that as a nonissue and give them guidance on 
another matter?  All that will teach them is that disrespect is 
acceptable behavior; something I hardly think you want them to 
learn. 

Now, I want to give you a page from my Amish Great-grandparents 
here; they are very intentional and very respectful toward one 
another, especially in matters of deciding what degree of 
protection from the world outside is appropriate.  They sit down 
and talk about it, with their kids and with their Elders, together. 
They talk about what's out there, about the influences it could 
have, about the consequences of changes in the degree or nature 
in which they set themselves apart.  And they don't hide it from 
the kids. They do not sneak around behind each others' backs, and 
after kids get to about the age of six, they don't search the kids' 
rooms unless the children ask them to.  In other words, they regard 
Trust as a high virtue and recognize it as the only way to build 
trustworthiness.  I happen to think that this approach is an 
excellent idea for people who want to protect children from 
evil influences, and recommend it to you.  

If you want to know what's in the file, ask your child.  If you're 
afraid of what *might* be in that file, talk about it with your 
child.  Explain that you're concerned, and explain why, and ask 
whether your child shares your concerns and what concerns the 
child has, and above all LISTEN to what the child says.  

As regards the cypherpunks list: "Blank Frank" is anonymous.  S/he 
could be anybody, or several different anybodies at the same time. 
You happened to catch it/him/her/them in a nasty mood, and at 
least one of it/him/her/them flamed you pretty hard.  Perhaps that 
particular persona of "Blank Frank" is all out of patience.  But 
try to understand why your intent would make someone angry; there 
are lots of people out here who are very bitter about being "protected" 
as children by authoritarian adults who refused us basic human trust - 
which seems to be your intent.  We find that intent repulsive.  

Perhaps that particular "Blank Frank" is one of the wounded.  
Try extending a little understanding for his/her pain, try to read 
past the vitriol, and try a little bit of that old fashioned 
Christian forgiveness, and you will see that even in his/her rage, 
"Blank Frank" was giving you basically the same advice I am giving 
you now. 


				Ray Dillinger

PS.  I fear I have spent far more time and effort on this message 
     than its likely reception will warrant -- but I feel it would 
     have been Wrong to fail to give you at least the chance to 
     understand what's going on here. 










From roy at scytale.com  Tue Jan 23 16:00:26 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:00:26 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231609320.6394-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <016201c08578$ae713b80$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010123185903.00abde40@mail.addr.com>


At 04:09 PM 1/23/01 -0800, you wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, John Banks wrote:
>
> > Just forget my request ... I'll find the help I need somewhere else.  Get a
> > life ... you're all sick.  Sincerely, Mrs. Banks
>
>Actually they are trying to piss you off.
>
>And they have won.

IIRC, the canonical response is

YHBT, YHL, HAND

(feeling acronymical today)




From gcelente at trendsresearch.com  Tue Jan 23 16:22:04 2001
From: gcelente at trendsresearch.com (Gerald Celente)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:22:04 -0500
Subject: Trademark registration
Message-ID: <000801c0859b$af617a00$61c01dd0@gcelente>

23 January 2001

To whom it may concern:

We are owner of a trademark registered on the principal register in the U.S. Patent and trademark Office for the mark "Trend Alert" No. 1776491, Registered June 15, 1993. 

It has come to our attention that you are using the same mark for related products and services. Such use by you is likely to induce confusion, or mistake, or deception in those familiar with our mark and we therefore hereby demand that you immediately cease all use of the mark and confirm this in writing. 

In the absence of cooperation, we are prepared to take such action as is necessary to enforce its substantial trademark rights. 

We look for your immediate response. 

Sincerely, 

Gerald Celente

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From mktg at hellobrain.com  Tue Jan 23 18:04:37 2001
From: mktg at hellobrain.com (HelloBrain.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:37 -0600
Subject: The latest developments at HelloBrain
Message-ID: <200101240405.UAA07576@toad.com>

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From ralph at centerone.com  Tue Jan 23 17:07:39 2001
From: ralph at centerone.com (Ralph Forsythe)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:07:39 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0856f$324942e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com>


While I almost always refrain from posting in petty flame wars, this is
something I feel pretty strongly about, so...

First, I agree that Frank's response was most likely NOT the most
professional or courteous response to your question.  However, you argue
that talking is not the answer here, and I most vehemently disagree.  I
was raised with good moral standing, and I do think I know right from
wrong.  However I did not learn these things by being completely isolated
from the things in the world which are damaging.

Deception, filth, and dishonesty come from silence.  Open communication,
by simple definition of the term, serves to counteract these things.
Perhaps the answer isn't total isolation or silence, but to simply
communicate your message differently.  I also believe that a parent's
*number one* responsiblity in caring for their child is to protect them.
However, what will happen when that child (no longer a child) enters the
real world, where these things are NOT isolated from him anymore?
Innocence only lasts as long as ignorance.  What *will* make your son
determine right from wrong is the knowledge you provide now, today and
tomorrow, about these things.

I'm not flaming you or telling you how to raise your son, anymore than I
would want someone telling me how to raise mine.  (FWIW I am not a parent)
But I cannot agree that this is the right approach.  I can see religion is
a strong force in your life.  I don't share similar beliefs personally,
but I will fight to the death to protect someone's right to believe what
they choose.  My suggestion is to perhaps teach your message in this
framework, the keyword being /teach/.  communicate.  Share what you know,
what you learned from experience in your life, with your son.  ONLY with
that kind of open teaching and leadership will your son have the ability
to make those moral decisions on his own.

Oh -- the general feeling you received from the list regarding hacking
your son's .pwl files come from most of us thinking it's wrong to do that.
We all were taught, and learned, because someone took the time to share
with us what they knew.  No one is suggesting you let your son run rampant
through porn sites and the like, just that we've been there and know from
personal experience that approach will accomplish nothing.

Anyway, some food for thought...

- Ralph Forsythe
ralph at centerone.com

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:

> Mr. Blank Frank,
> 
> I simply asked for your assistance -- none of your repulsive filth was
due me.  It's people like you -- or the perception that you tried to give
me of you that I am trying to protect my son against.  When deception, filth,
dishonesty, and the such as you have displayed rule this world ...
when talking isn't the answer, a parent has the responsibilty to care for
their child.  Perhaps you are not a parent, or you never had a parent that
cared enough to protect -- but, I am one that will fight to the bitter end to
protect the innocence of my children.  I simply asked for you assistance in
cracking the .pwl file and your response was nothing to do with that request.
  If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better than the
one you sent.  I'm sorry that misery seems to emmanate from you -- there's a
Peace that can be found in Your Creator ... may He bless you today.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mrs. Banks
> 
> > "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com> writes:
> > >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is not
> > good >regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find out
> > what these >passwords are or how to work that program?
> >
> > We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a
> > homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin for
> > Osama.  He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in Semtex,
> > so chill out, bitch.  Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you just
> > talk to him?
> 
> 





From Lori at bornagn.com  Tue Jan 23 17:10:10 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:10:10 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c08590$e3efc3e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>


Mr. Forsythe,

I couldn't agree with you more!  Thanks for your response ... I'm not sure
where anyone got the idea that I'm doing this behind my son's back, ...
because I am not ... we've discussed these issues at length .... thanks
again, Mrs. Banks

----- Original Message -----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Ralph Forsythe" <ralph at centerone.com>
To: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
Cc: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> While I almost always refrain from posting in petty flame wars, this is
> something I feel pretty strongly about, so...
>
> First, I agree that Frank's response was most likely NOT the most
> professional or courteous response to your question.  However, you argue
> that talking is not the answer here, and I most vehemently disagree.  I
> was raised with good moral standing, and I do think I know right from
> wrong.  However I did not learn these things by being completely isolated
> from the things in the world which are damaging.
>
> Deception, filth, and dishonesty come from silence.  Open communication,
> by simple definition of the term, serves to counteract these things.
> Perhaps the answer isn't total isolation or silence, but to simply
> communicate your message differently.  I also believe that a parent's
> *number one* responsiblity in caring for their child is to protect them.
> However, what will happen when that child (no longer a child) enters the
> real world, where these things are NOT isolated from him anymore?
> Innocence only lasts as long as ignorance.  What *will* make your son
> determine right from wrong is the knowledge you provide now, today and
> tomorrow, about these things.
>
> I'm not flaming you or telling you how to raise your son, anymore than I
> would want someone telling me how to raise mine.  (FWIW I am not a parent)
> But I cannot agree that this is the right approach.  I can see religion is
> a strong force in your life.  I don't share similar beliefs personally,
> but I will fight to the death to protect someone's right to believe what
> they choose.  My suggestion is to perhaps teach your message in this
> framework, the keyword being /teach/.  communicate.  Share what you know,
> what you learned from experience in your life, with your son.  ONLY with
> that kind of open teaching and leadership will your son have the ability
> to make those moral decisions on his own.
>
> Oh -- the general feeling you received from the list regarding hacking
> your son's .pwl files come from most of us thinking it's wrong to do that.
> We all were taught, and learned, because someone took the time to share
> with us what they knew.  No one is suggesting you let your son run rampant
> through porn sites and the like, just that we've been there and know from
> personal experience that approach will accomplish nothing.
>
> Anyway, some food for thought...
>
> - Ralph Forsythe
> ralph at centerone.com
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:
>
> > Mr. Blank Frank,
> >
> > I simply asked for your assistance -- none of your repulsive filth was
> due me.  It's people like you -- or the perception that you tried to give
> me of you that I am trying to protect my son against.  When deception,
filth,
> dishonesty, and the such as you have displayed rule this world ...
> when talking isn't the answer, a parent has the responsibilty to care for
> their child.  Perhaps you are not a parent, or you never had a parent that
> cared enough to protect -- but, I am one that will fight to the bitter end
to
> protect the innocence of my children.  I simply asked for you assistance
in
> cracking the .pwl file and your response was nothing to do with that
request.
>   If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better than
the
> one you sent.  I'm sorry that misery seems to emmanate from you -- there's
a
> Peace that can be found in Your Creator ... may He bless you today.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Mrs. Banks
> >
> > > "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com> writes:
> > > >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is
not
> > > good >regarding my teen and the Internet.  Could you help me find out
> > > what these >passwords are or how to work that program?
> > >
> > > We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a
> > > homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin for
> > > Osama.  He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in
Semtex,
> > > so chill out, bitch.  Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you
just
> > > talk to him?
> >
> >
>





From atek3 at gmx.net  Tue Jan 23 20:26:07 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:26:07 -0800
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com> <004a01c08590$e3efc3e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net> <a05010401b693e287ecbd@[207.111.241.195]> <005701c08596$e2fe9e60$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <001501c085bd$ca72acc0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


really it just sounds like your son is gay and is looking for attention, and
based upon the "bornagn" maybe coming out to you isn't his idea of a party.

bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 5:53 PM
Subject: CDR: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> Mr. May,
>
> Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he says
> that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being
> stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up ... must be a
> "Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ... I
> think that he's hiding something personally .... something that will hurt
> our relationship -- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried
dilligently
> to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally -- whatever he's got
> ... I'm in there for the long run and we'll be  better people when we
> resolve the conflict!!  ... I understand certain temptations, desires, ect
> ... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers website
in
> which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I
mean
> ... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I
> could do it" ... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I
> just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program" ... see,
I
> told you that he's very bright!! .... just want to see him use it for a
good
> purpose ... one that he can look back on and feel accomplishment.....  so
> does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts?
>
> Thanks again,
> Mrs. Banks
> ----- Original Message -----
> X-Loop: openpgp.net
> From: "Tim May" <tcmay at got.net>
> To: <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> Cc: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
>
>
> > At 8:10 PM -0500 1/23/01, Lori Banks wrote:
> > >Mr. Forsythe,
> > >
> > >I couldn't agree with you more!  Thanks for your response ... I'm not
> sure
> > >where anyone got the idea that I'm doing this behind my son's back, ...
> > >because I am not ... we've discussed these issues at length .... thanks
> > >again, Mrs. Banks
> >
> > Ah, your son _forgot_ his password. I see. As you are not doing
> > anything behind his back, you must be working with him on cracking
> > the password files which he has forgotten.
> >
> > Wouldn't want either of you to not have access to those files!
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> >
> > --Tim May
> > --
> > Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> >
>
>
>




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan 23 17:41:45 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:41:45 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <004a01c08590$e3efc3e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b693e287ecbd@[207.111.241.195]>


At 8:10 PM -0500 1/23/01, Lori Banks wrote:
>Mr. Forsythe,
>
>I couldn't agree with you more!  Thanks for your response ... I'm not sure
>where anyone got the idea that I'm doing this behind my son's back, ...
>because I am not ... we've discussed these issues at length .... thanks
>again, Mrs. Banks

Ah, your son _forgot_ his password. I see. As you are not doing 
anything behind his back, you must be working with him on cracking 
the password files which he has forgotten.

Wouldn't want either of you to not have access to those files!

Good luck,


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From Lori at bornagn.com  Tue Jan 23 17:53:17 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:53:17 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com> <004a01c08590$e3efc3e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net> <a05010401b693e287ecbd@[207.111.241.195]>
Message-ID: <005701c08596$e2fe9e60$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>


Mr. May,

Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he says
that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being
stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up ... must be a
"Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ... I
think that he's hiding something personally .... something that will hurt
our relationship -- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried dilligently
to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally -- whatever he's got
... I'm in there for the long run and we'll be  better people when we
resolve the conflict!!  ... I understand certain temptations, desires, ect
... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers website in
which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I mean
... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I
could do it" ... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I
just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program" ... see, I
told you that he's very bright!! .... just want to see him use it for a good
purpose ... one that he can look back on and feel accomplishment.....  so
does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts?

Thanks again,
Mrs. Banks
----- Original Message -----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Tim May" <tcmay at got.net>
To: <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Cc: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> At 8:10 PM -0500 1/23/01, Lori Banks wrote:
> >Mr. Forsythe,
> >
> >I couldn't agree with you more!  Thanks for your response ... I'm not
sure
> >where anyone got the idea that I'm doing this behind my son's back, ...
> >because I am not ... we've discussed these issues at length .... thanks
> >again, Mrs. Banks
>
> Ah, your son _forgot_ his password. I see. As you are not doing
> anything behind his back, you must be working with him on cracking
> the password files which he has forgotten.
>
> Wouldn't want either of you to not have access to those files!
>
> Good luck,
>
>
> --Tim May
> --
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
>





From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Tue Jan 23 18:48:56 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:48:56 -0500
Subject: Leo Marks Obituary
Message-ID: <83371bfa21f5a2c77eedadf14924a432@mixmaster.shinn.net>


www.dailytelegraph.com/obituary 

Leo Marks

LEO MARKS, who has died aged 80, was the chief cryptographer of Special Operations Executive during the Second World War; later he wrote the script for Peeping Tom, the film which destroyed the career of its director Michael Powell.

Between 1942, when he joined SOE, and 1946, when he rejected an offer of employment from MI6, Marks proved himself a code-maker and breaker of rare genius.

While still in his early twenties he revolutionised the construction and security of SOE's cyphers. And by his re-invention of the "one-time pad" he eventually influenced code systems used by secret services the world over.

In the latter stages of the war he was entrusted with devising encryption systems for, among others, the SAS and the Free French. Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked General de Gaulle's private cypher in a spare moment on the lavatory.

He began his career as a cryptographer at the age of eight in his father's antiquarian bookshop in London, Marks & Co, later the subject of Helen Hanff's memoir 84 Charing Cross Road (1971).

One morning his father Benjamin showed Leo a first edition of The Gold Bug by Edgar Allan Poe, which he had just bought for #6 10s. Knowing that it would interest American collectors, he intended to price it at #850.

The book's tale of hidden treasure the whereabouts of which was concealed by a cypher entranced Leo, and he set about breaking his father's own secret pricing code, a series of letters pencilled inside the cover of each book.

Within minutes he had found the key (the 10 letters of Marks Cohen, the two partners in the business, each corresponded to a number) and gained two ambitions: to become an expert on codes and, like Poe, to write horror stories.

In January 1942, Marks was called up and went to Bedford to train as a cryptographer, an opening secured for him by a godfather in Special Branch.

He was the only one of his intake not to be sent on to Bletchley Park; instead, having in an evening cracked a code intended to be spread as a group exercise across a week, he was labelled a misfit and dispatched to Baker Street, the headquarters of the recently formed Special Operations Executive.

Marks almost contrived to fail his interview, taking all day to break a cypher that he had been expected to decode in only 20 minutes with the help of a key. SOE's head of codes had forgotten to give him the necessary piece of paper, and in his memoir Between Silk and Cyanide (1998) Marks drew a vivid and often angry portrait of an organisation capable of both brilliance and lethal carelessness. It was also one in which Marks, as a quick-witted Jew, often felt an outsider.

The title of his book referred to the new codes Marks had devised and had had printed on silk squares, and the poison carried by agents - life and death. He had had to come up with new cyphers because when he inspected SOE's methods for communicating with its agents in the field he was horrified to discover that the traffic could be read by the Germans with ease.

The agents were using well-known poems as the cyphers for encoding their messages, and these could either be guessed by an enemy armed with reference books, or simply tortured out of captured operatives.

His initial solution was to use original poems instead as cyphers. Many of these he wrote himself, the best known being that which he gave to the agent Violette Szabo, The Life That I Have. He had actually written it for a girl with whom he was in love, the news of whose death in an air crash he heard on Christmas Eve 1943. 

The poem was subsequently used in the film made about Violette Szabo, Carve Her Name With Pride (1958), and generated an enormous response.

Marks took great pains to get to know the agents he briefed, among them his close friend Forest Yeo-Thomas - "The White Rabbit" - and Noor Inayat Khan, who suffered from the handicap for a spy of having been brought up never to lie.

It could be difficult, as happened to Marks, to brief a man and then hear two days later that the Gestapo had tortured him horribly. But it was vital for him to understand the temperament of each agent, as this helped him with the other important area of his work, deciphering the garbled messages transmitted by agents under stress.

It was vital that any such "indecipherables" - up to 20 per cent of the daily traffic - should be read as quickly as possible so that, with the Gestapo on the prowl, the agent need not risk his life to resend it.

As Marks knew the coding idiosyncrasies of each agent - an inability to spell a certain word or a habit of transposing two columns in a cypher - he was often able to decipher the signals himself, but he also recruited 400 young women from the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (Fany) to help him break indecipherables.

When interviewing these girls Marks did not look for mathematical ability but for an interest in music and an aptitude for crosswords, believing these were better pointers to cryptographic talent; he himself was already regularly setting crosswords for The Times.

Marks's helpers, based at Grendon Underwood in Buckinghamshire, proved immensely proficient and dedicated. One message was deciphered with seconds to spare after 650,000 separate attempts.

It was the lack of indecipherables in the traffic of SOE's Dutch section which first alerted Marks to the so-called Englandspiel, the most serious disaster to befall SOE.

Marks deduced that since no signals from Holland were ever corrupted, the Germans must have penetrated the network and be controlling the transmitters. He was right, but his suspicions fell on deaf ears - or on those playing a longer game - and up to 50 Dutch agents went unnecessarily to their deaths.

Thereafter Marks concentrated on perfecting codes that could not be discovered by the Germans. His solution was simple and brilliant - to use one-off cyphers, printed on silk which the agent then cut away and burnt so that he could not remember them.

These "worked-out keys" not only reduced the incidence of garbling but, being random in origin, were much harder for the Germans to crack. Silk also had the advantage of being easily hidden in the lining of clothes, and if they were caught each agent was given a method of letting SOE know that he was transmitting under duress.

By D-Day, when SOE's agents tied down thousands of German troops, Marks's silks were being used from Normandy to Sarawak. They were particularly gratefully received by the Free French, who routed all their traffic through SOE, allowing Marks to read politically sensitive material destined for de Gaulle. 

By then he had also refined the one-time pad, first invented by the Germans, in which a code was made by adding to numbers representing set phrases another pre-agreed series of numbers. The only copies of these were held by the agent and his masters, and used just once.

Marks, who needed no invitation to demonstrate his intelligence, adapted the system to use letters instead of numbers, an idea already being used independently at Bletchley.

But Marks's drive and determination ensured that the code became widely disseminated within the British secret services, and in time it became standard cryptographic technique.

He retained discreet informal links with the Intelligence Service after the war and devised several other important new types of code; indeed, so central did his wartime work remain to modern cypher practice that he was unable to disclose much of it in his autobiography, the publication of which was delayed by the authorities for more than a decade after he had completed it.

Leopold Samuel Marks was born in London on September 24 1920. An only child, he was educated at St Paul's and then helped out in his father's shop, where customers included Charlie Chaplin, Aleister Crowley and Sigmund Freud. 

After the war, Marks turned to writing for the stage and screen, and had some success in the West End with plays such as The Girl Who Couldn't Quite (1947) and The Best Damn Lie (1957), which made use of a lie detector.

Indeed much of his literary work, which in truth was largely forgettable, seemed to hark back to his previous career. Thus the film Cloudburst (1951) was about a vengeful codebreaker; Sebastian (1967), with John Gielgud, concerned an academic code expert turned spy.

Quite different from all these was Peeping Tom (1960). At its most superficial, it is the shocking story of a man, terrorised as a child by his father, who grows up obsessed with fear. He gets his kicks by filming young women as he murders them with a blade concealed within his camera.

At a deeper level, the film is a meditation on the voyeuristic nature of cinema. Since the man's crimes are seen by the audience through his lens, they are in effect asked to identify themselves with his murderous acts.

Marks's notably intelligent script, influenced by his lifelong interest in psychoanalysis, contains a number of in-jokes, notably that a director in the film is played by the blind actor Esmond Knight, and that the name Leo Marks gave his protagonist was Mark Lewis.

Although now recognised as a strange but serious work, at the time the film proved too disturbing for audiences and critics. It was described as "evil and pornographic" and the reaction against it ended the illustrious career of its director, Michael Powell.

Marks went on to work with the Boulting Brothers, whom he also almost finished with another film about a homicidal maniac, Twisted Nerve (1968). He never again reached the heights of Peeping Tom. So provocative is its reputation that it was not possible to show it on British television until 1997.

The film is the primary influence on the cinema of the director Martin Scorsese; he acknowledged his debt in 1988 when he asked Marks to play the voice of Satan in his similarly controversial The Last Temptation of Christ.

Marks's father died in 1968, but he was not tempted to take over the shop, living instead quietly in west London. He was good company, enjoyed showing that he knew more than he said, but kept secrets as well as any man. Though a natural cynic, he was also a romantic.

In person he was short and powerful, with a grip of iron and a voice like new velvet. He was an habitue of the Special Forces Club.

He married, in 1966 (dissolved 2000), the portrait painter Elena Gaussen.






From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Jan 23 19:56:54 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:56:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123200520.5612v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> This suggests a tangent - If we look at works of fiction which were
> politically or socially influential in their day, how many were
> entertaining? how many were "good stories"? A lot of polemics end up
> seeming transparent and thin today (I'm thinking in particular of
> Bellamy's _Looking Backward_, but there are probably other examples). 
> They had to capture their audience somehow, which seems to say something
> about the audience of the time (or maybe just about the tendency people
> have to overlook faults in a book which agrees with them). 

I think most, that entertainment value is what helped at least in part to
make their discussion palitable. After all it follows if the book is both
popular and influencial it is actually changing peoples mind.

> As for things unexpected - maybe it would be interesting to look at the
> literature issued just after the possibility of the new invention becomes
> known. Atomic power, for instance, was written about by H.G. Wells long
> before the atomic bomb was built. Maybe atomic power is too extreme a
> case, though. 

Wells was contemporanious with the growth of atomic physics. I think it's
more likely a cose of being too close.

> Yes, it seems we agree. Except it seems that instead of dismissing
> definitions of "good" and "evil" as "an affect, no more" (if I'm reading
> you correctly?) - it seems to me that this is where the real battles are
> fought. So instead of being dismissive, it seems like a better idea to
> *pay attention*. (This may be a sign of youth). 

Actualy it gives us a reason, both reasoned and emotional, to consider
alternatives like 'harm'. They're more pragmatic and easier to define
across social belief systems. Things like murder, rape, & theft are pretty
common. Then we include concepts like freedom of religion and speech and
we begin to see a framework where a multi-cultural society can exist. It
allows the keeping of local 'web-of-trusts' while at the same providing a
more general framework for commerce and human experession.

> Even so - in math class I am told "if two reasonable people start from
> the same premises, they should arrive at the same conclusion." In
> philosophy I find that Frege called a failure to apply the same laws of
> logic a "new form of madness." 

I think the operable point is 'same premises'. The true test of a theory
is when the parties start at different premises.

> Here I thought you were going to say COMMUNISM! :-) 

A more specific form of socialism.

> Aren't they considered two sides of the die? 

n-sided.

> OK, but this does not strike me as *absurdly* paranoid. I understood your
> point to be that any society paranoid enough to use massive amounts of
> cryptography would be absurdly paranoid (maybe unstable). Maybe there's a
> question of degree here?

Oh, not at all. I'm simply saying that considering human nature any
society that isn't paranoid isn't going to last long. Like it or not
(personaly I'm rather fond of it) the human animal is a predator. A damn
smart, ruthless, cold-blooded, determined killer. That is one of the prime
facts as to why we got to where we are. This realization is one of the
reasons I'm interested in the subject.

> So you think we'll end up with "one citizen, one identity?" Do you think
> this will be an explicit norm - that people will react to the idea of
> having two distinct identities online the way we would to having two
> distinct identities in "real life" today? 

No, I actually expect to see a growth in the desire for anonymity. As
people realize the true extend of data mining and the extent of both
commercial and government databases they will become more paranoid. People
will finaly come to realize explicitly that freedom IS security (which
I've always felt was the point behind Franklin's quote).

> the liberatory power of multiple identity - instead of footnotes in books
> about e-commerce noting that web polls can be easily pseudospoofed?

I've always felt these predictions didn't understand the fundamental
nature of the network requirements. The current internet and OS technology 
simply isn't up to it.
 
> "Humane" and "reasonable" ? I'm sure you're right, but those two words do
> not inspire much confidence in me right now. (Coming out of a course on
> French Social and Political Doctrines 1789-present will do that). 
> 
> Frankly, a "humane" and "reasonable" society issuing from Open Source
> principles makes me think of a Committee on Public Safety run by Slashdot
> readers.

Ok, I've spoken poorly. I'm not talking of the society per se but rather
the network that it is built upon. If we follow the current model Lessig's
point of regulation by compiler will come to pass. However, if instead we
have a network infrastructure that is end to end developed Open Source it
provides no room to regulate. Lawmakers can't as a matter of course pass a
law dictating what network stack you might use (at least in the US). That
would provide a base for a more humane and reasonable society. A society
where freedom of expression and social responsibility are balanced as they
should be (at least under the 4th).

> Oh, cool. Some friends of mine are working with Plan 9. I'll have to check
> this out at some point...I've been too busy to pay much attention. 

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18

> Perhaps. I'm wary of making these kinds of pronouncements. It's a
> curve-fitting problem. "Here are six events - build a trend around them." 
> The rise of planned communities (including Summerlin, where I live in
> Nevada) *could* point the way towards arcologies and master-planned
> living. It could also engender a backlash which ends up with everyone
> going back to live in the cities to create closer communities with their
> fellow (wo)man. 

I'll have to disagree, it's a statistical mechanical problem. Not
deterministic at all. One of the primary memes, and primary problems, is
this point. It's almost like talking to DeCarte.
 
> Can you imagine a latter-day Gandhi who exhorts people to move back to the
> cities to live with each other again? No? Why? 

I don't see the relevancy.

> Yes? Why arcologies and not Gandhi? 

Because within the arcology the society can set its own norms while at the
same time interacting with others. The question is what holds such an
arcology together? A strong common culture.

> Then our entire deliberations are blown to bits by advances in
> nanotechnology...

Actually for the arcology/zaibatsu to exist will require nanotechnology
and several other technologies to become practical. If we don't develop
then the entire process is fall down because the resource base won't
expand as fast as the need. Without the technology there is no way to
address the need.

> It would provide large family-owned corporations with even more
> interesting politics than they might currently posess, that's for sure.

Just remember, 20 generations is effectively billions. Consider that
society when it has moved off planet based societies and begun to process
extra-planetary resources. Lifetimes potentially moving toward the 500
year mark, genetic engineering to build custom chimeras. Consider the
potential for ark's with artificial wombs, stem cell management, and gene
banks.

> An alternative may be that the generation gap asserts itself with a
> vengeance. Dad and Jr. can't get along - what about Dad and the 17th?

Well that would depend on a family by family basis. In general what one
can say is that it will build a social structure where children visit
their grandparents for much farther than through their teens. And on for
the great grandparent...

> Instead of isolating vertically, societies isolate horizontally. Lots of
> parallel institutions with mandatory minimum and mandatory retirement
> ages.

Won't fly, but I'd like to hear your description of the driving forces...

> Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
> perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
> the society born before them. 

What 'large bumps'? Considering that most generations will be 20-30 years
apart in age (at least at first, expect the age between generations to
extend outward). In addition the additional storage of culture will act as
a mediating affect.

> So all this is fine, but I dislike saying that this is what "will happen." 

So be it. Remember, something must happen. It will happen as a result of
cause/effect and random events.

> I tend to agree with you - but I also remember that in the 70's we had
> predictions of world disaster by the 00's. Not quite there yet. Still
> Malthus has to be right in the long run...

I'm not predicting disaster, a slow lingering drown on ones own waste.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan 23 22:33:02 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:33:02 -0800
Subject: Fw: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101231434270.7349-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101231434270.7349-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <p0432042eb6942753d5a2@[10.1.1.42]>


nks list: "Blank Frank" is anonymous.  S/he
>could be anybody, or several different anybodies at the same time.
>You happened to catch it/him/her/them in a nasty mood, and at
>least one of it/him/her/them flamed you pretty hard.  Perhaps that
>particular persona of "Blank Frank" is all out of patience.  But
>try to understand why your intent would make someone angry; there
>are lots of people out here who are very bitter about being "protected"
>as children by authoritarian adults who refused us basic human trust -
>which seems to be your intent.  We find that intent repulsive.


	Alternatively that particular instance of "Blank Frank" is her kid.

	Isn't the internet wonderful.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From sparky at suba.com  Tue Jan 23 21:10:02 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:10:02 -0600
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010123185903.00abde40@mail.addr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231609320.6394-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3A6E0F4A.16477.D219B2@localhost>


On 23 Jan 2001, at 19:00, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> At 04:09 PM 1/23/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, John Banks wrote:
> >
> > > Just forget my request ... I'll find the help I need somewhere
> > > else.  Get a life ... you're all sick.  Sincerely, Mrs. Banks

Interesting that Senor Banks signs his email Mrs.. 

perhaps John IS Mrs Banks..?

This demands an Onion-type headline.. Whoever comes up with 
the best will have my, um, undying admiration. OK, OK, and my 
password cracking software. 

sparkane

> >
> >Actually they are trying to piss you off.
> >
> >And they have won.
> 
> IIRC, the canonical response is
> 
> YHBT, YHL, HAND
> 
> (feeling acronymical today)
> 
> 





From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 23 20:21:46 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:21:46 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com> <004a01c08590$e3efc3e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net> <a05010401b693e287ecbd@[207.111.241.195]> <005701c08596$e2fe9e60$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <016e01c085bd$2a521730$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>

>he says that he knows that he should allow me
>to have access, that he's being stubborn, and
> that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up

What he means, is that he doesn't want to share his password
because he feels it is none of your business.  He is also
reluctant to tell you to FOAD.

>must be a "Hackers Oath" or something that's
>not allowing him to divulge it ...

One of those 'or something's, probably.

>I think that he's hiding something personally

Duh.





From ralph at centerone.com  Tue Jan 23 20:28:41 2001
From: ralph at centerone.com (Ralph Forsythe)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:28:41 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
In-Reply-To: <005701c08596$e2fe9e60$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101232047050.23072-100000@centerone.com>


These programs are not what I'd consider to be hacking programs, per se.
They are not gaining illegal access on anything, or doing any damage.  He
might be royally annoying some people on the net, but that's about it.

Actually, kudos to your son ... You have to understand that most people
using the programs like your son's have never taken the time to learn how
they work, but just download them and use them.  Very few people take the
time to write the code themselves; to learn how the processes take place,
or why what's happening is the way it is.

I'd imagine quite a few people on this list have, at one time or another,
written programs that do things to piss people off, but in the end cause
no real harm.  Some of us have written programs to crack password files
even, just to "see if we can".  That doesn't mean we're out there
downloading passwords and breaking into sites worldwide.  (Well, most of
us anyway...)

To be honest, it's exactly because I was able to tinker and try these
things out that I have a good paying job in the computer security field,
am respected by my peers, and continue to accomplish new things.  I
*absolutely* look back on my past and feel accomplishment.  If your son
was posting script kiddie crap like "I 0wn j00 l0053r5" (I owned you
loosers, in english) on web sites that would be different.  He's already
above that.  And that "hackers oath" is also exactly what defines the line
between maliscious and constructive behavior.

I don't know you, and I don't know your son.  But at least in regards to
this, DEFINITELY encourage him to keep at it if he likes it.  He'll likely
land a great job someday because of it.  Just make sure he knows where to
draw the line between constructive learning and illegal activity that
tends to make cops come to your house...

(Man I just feel all warm and fuzzy all of a sudden....)

- Ralph

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:

> Mr. May,
> 
> Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he says
> that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being
> stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up ... must be a
> "Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ... I
> think that he's hiding something personally .... something that will hurt
> our relationship -- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried dilligently
> to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally -- whatever he's got
> ... I'm in there for the long run and we'll be  better people when we
> resolve the conflict!!  ... I understand certain temptations, desires, ect
> ... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers website in
> which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I mean
> ... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I
> could do it" ... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I
> just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program" ... see, I
> told you that he's very bright!! .... just want to see him use it for a good
> purpose ... one that he can look back on and feel accomplishment.....  so
> does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts?
> 





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan 23 21:32:49 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:32:49 -0500
Subject: using braid groups vs. number theory for pki
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101232047050.23072-100000@centerone.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEJECFAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I'm considering developing an asm prototype of a braid group-based
encryption/decryption pki engine.  The basic story behind braid group
mathematics seems to imply much faster encryption/decryption engines.
Before I spend the next month working through this, does anyone know of a
braid group-based encryption/decryption engine?  Did it work?  Any
cryptanalysis on this?

Also, does anyone have any stats on the performance of popular pki systems?
I'm specifically looking for #s regarding number of keys which can be
generated by one vendor vs. another vendor's products (on similar hw
platforms.) Any clue where I might find this info (other than by paying Giga
or Meta $3K for a research report)?

Cheers-
Phillip





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Jan 23 22:44:01 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 01:44:01 -0500
Subject: using braid groups vs. number theory for pki
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEJECFAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101240130420.14084-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:

> mathematics seems to imply much faster encryption/decryption engines.
> Before I spend the next month working through this, does anyone know of a
> braid group-based encryption/decryption engine?  Did it work?  Any
> cryptanalysis  on this?

Helger Lipmaa's truly amazing collection of links reveals

"Practical comparison of Fast Public-key Cryptosystems"
P. Karu, J. Loikkanen
http://www.tml.hut.fi/~pk/crypto/fast_pk_crypto.ps

which is an account of an implementation of braid group encryption and a
performance comparison to ECC and NTRU. The implementation was done in
C++, so I bet your assembly version would kill it - but of course you'd
have to do the same for NTRU to acheive proper comparison...
(I didn't see it available for download - maybe contact the authors)

The rest of the links are worth checking out as well.
http://www.tml.hut.fi/~helger/crypto/link/public/braid/

and include some cryptanalysis and other links. Be careful when reading
these - the "word problem" is not what you may think it is, and some of
the cryptosystems seem to depend on more than just the word problem for
their security. If you have a good library nearby, you may want to look
for Rotman's _Introduction to Combinatorial Group Theory_ as a guide; it's
the best introduction I've found so far to the general issues. 

Short answer to "is it secure" is "maybe." Keep in mind that all you need
these days is a very weak trapdoor function and then you can "boost" it to
create a full public key cryptosystem. So if we can find any "hardness" at
all, that may be enough. 

> 
> Also, does anyone have any stats on the performance of popular pki systems?

Sorry, don't know more here than "look for white papers." Most of which
probably won't help you.

-David






From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Jan 23 23:41:51 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 02:41:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Autodesk branches out
Message-ID: <200101240741.CAA12997@www6.aa.psiweb.com>


http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB980214103197095292.htm
#    
#    January 23, 2001
#    
#    Technology Briefs
#    
#    Autodesk to Market Location-Detection Software for Cellphones
#    
#    Autodesk Inc., a San Rafael, Calif., software company, created 
#    a new division to market location-detection software for use 
#    with wireless telephones. The software will allow wireless-te
#    lephone carriers to determine a cellphone's location and transmit 
#    information targeted to the phone's user, such as driving 
#    directions. The software is aimed at a new generation of 
#    cellphones being introduced this year and next in Europe and, 
#    in a few years, in the U.S. Autodesk said its customers include 
#    Telefon AB L.M. Ericsson, the Swedish mobile-phone maker,
#    Fiat SpA, the Italian car maker, and John Young Associates.





From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Jan 24 00:00:43 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:00:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: oppose nomination of John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <200101240800.DAA29876@www1.aa.psiweb.com>


Jim Burnes smoldered:
#    Reese wrote:
#    > Reno burned little kids in their church, because of the FIREARMS held
#    > or believed to be held somewhere on or around the compound.
#    >
#    > You might want to reappraise.
#    
#    I've appraised the Waco scenario more than most.  You might want to
#    do a little digging before you trumpet the statist line.  I don't
#    know if you're a US citizen Reese, but owning firearms in Texas is
#    not a reason to burn and gas people alive.  Go get informed.

Sure it is. The BATF was the lead agency:

    o The F.B.I., through the Department of Justice, requested that Texas
      Governor Ann Richards allow the use of helicopters from the Texas
      National Guard at Waco. Texas law forbids the use of the National
      Guard in police action against a citizen of the state, except when
      drugs are involved in a criminal action.

      But the BATF fabricated a drug charge ("ugh, they're operating a
      methamphetamine lab or something huh-huh-huh") to gain the use of the
      helicopters. Later, Governor Richards stated publicly that she had
      been lied to by the Department of Justice.

    Senator:   Did the FBI consider delivering Avalon fire-retardant gas?

    Reno/FBI:  No, how could we deliver it without getting shot?

It's called running another tube out the tank turret, just as was done
for delivering the highly flammable chemical-weapons grade tear gas in
the first place. Use another tank if necessary.

It was that simple.


   "We did not know the complex was on fire at first, but we started
    smelling smoke. We didn't know what to do.

    We were afraid that if we came out of the building, we would be shot.

    All of a sudden, the smoke came. I couldn't see my husband any more."

    After the whole thing was over, the BATF raised its own flag over
    the ruins.


Burn baby burn. 80 men, woman and children.

The official FBI fire plan [their own C-SPAN testimony], which they followed,
was letting them burn.

Janet "Barbecue" Reno. Who testified she would do nothing different again.


Law enforcement gun hysteria.


Like a scene from a nightmarish movie [such as Terry Gilliam's Brazil]
the Feds, while poking holes in the building with a tank snout and spraying
dangerous amounts of toxic tear gas, and while knocking down extended areas
of the compound (as shown and commented on by ABC news) with another tank in
the rear, blared 1984 Newspeak over loudspeakers at the hapless victims:

         "THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK. REPEAT THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK."






From Tom.Gadd at telegraph-info.co.uk  Tue Jan 23 19:25:35 2001
From: Tom.Gadd at telegraph-info.co.uk (Sport)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:25:35 -0000
Subject: SPORT.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK IS GIVING AWAY PLAYSTATION 2 CONSOLES
Message-ID: <478A6CB58FE8D411BCA10002B31630B947CF30@JENNA>

Dear Brad Pitt

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From roy at scytale.com  Wed Jan 24 03:13:54 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:13:54 -0500
Subject: Whither openpgp.net?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010124061349.00b2e280@pop3.idt.net>


Anyone know what the status of openpgp.net is?  The list reflector seems 
quite sporadic and I've been unable to get a response out of 
listproc at openpgp.net for over a month.  Mail to whgiii has also gone 
unacknowledged.




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Jan 24 05:31:21 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 07:31:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Whither openpgp.net?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010124061349.00b2e280@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010124073029.5612B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> Anyone know what the status of openpgp.net is?  The list reflector seems 
> quite sporadic and I've been unable to get a response out of 
> listproc at openpgp.net for over a month.  Mail to whgiii has also gone 
> unacknowledged.

I hit a thousand bounces last week and dropped them. Apparently the entire
domain is down not just the CDR node.

No clue as to why.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 24 05:34:41 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:34:41 -0500
Subject: Whither openpgp.net?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010124073029.5612B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A6ED9E5.F24F693D@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


      Actually, they've been back up for almost a week, since last Thurs.
anyway. This is the second time recently that they went down with no
explanation. In my more paranoid moments I wonder about some sort of fed
subversion/takeover/whatever.



Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>
> > Anyone know what the status of openpgp.net is?  The list reflector seems
> > quite sporadic and I've been unable to get a response out of
> > listproc at openpgp.net for over a month.  Mail to whgiii has also gone
> > unacknowledged.
>
> I hit a thousand bounces last week and dropped them. Apparently the entire
> domain is down not just the CDR node.
>
> No clue as to why.
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Jan 24 06:04:45 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:04:45 -0500
Subject: using braid groups vs. number theory for pki
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEJGCFAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


great info, thanks!

-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of dmolnar
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 1:44 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: using braid groups vs. number theory for pki





On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:

> mathematics seems to imply much faster encryption/decryption engines.
> Before I spend the next month working through this, does anyone know of a
> braid group-based encryption/decryption engine?  Did it work?  Any
> cryptanalysis  on this?

Helger Lipmaa's truly amazing collection of links reveals

"Practical comparison of Fast Public-key Cryptosystems"
P. Karu, J. Loikkanen
http://www.tml.hut.fi/~pk/crypto/fast_pk_crypto.ps

which is an account of an implementation of braid group encryption and a
performance comparison to ECC and NTRU. The implementation was done in
C++, so I bet your assembly version would kill it - but of course you'd
have to do the same for NTRU to acheive proper comparison...
(I didn't see it available for download - maybe contact the authors)

The rest of the links are worth checking out as well.
http://www.tml.hut.fi/~helger/crypto/link/public/braid/

and include some cryptanalysis and other links. Be careful when reading
these - the "word problem" is not what you may think it is, and some of
the cryptosystems seem to depend on more than just the word problem for
their security. If you have a good library nearby, you may want to look
for Rotman's _Introduction to Combinatorial Group Theory_ as a guide; it's
the best introduction I've found so far to the general issues.

Short answer to "is it secure" is "maybe." Keep in mind that all you need
these days is a very weak trapdoor function and then you can "boost" it to
create a full public key cryptosystem. So if we can find any "hardness" at
all, that may be enough.

>
> Also, does anyone have any stats on the performance of popular pki
systems?

Sorry, don't know more here than "look for white papers." Most of which
probably won't help you.

-David








From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Jan 24 07:51:31 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:51:31 -0600
Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- To Protect Data From Power Blackouts, Store On 
 Internet, Says UC Berkeley Researcher
Message-ID: <3A6EFA03.1B9FD91B@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010123074839.htm
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From foobar_2001 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 24 06:56:41 2001
From: foobar_2001 at hotmail.com (Foobulus Baracculus)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:56:41 -0500
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi 
Message-ID: <F696YEFmsQSktLxHbHu00002c7a@hotmail.com>



...

Alan Olsen:

wouldn't that be perfect? a "collectable patent card game", as a way to
criticise patents (by using the most ridiculous ones on the cards),
which in itself violates a patent... hm, I like the idea...

"combine the 'patent for display of blablah' with the 'method or device
for remote information acquisition' and you can cross-license that
against your enemie's 'global computer network patent' for 10 points."

...

This would be a fabulous way of introducing young children into the new 
emerging world.

One of the strategies of the game would be to build a patent portfolio. For 
example, you have developed an idea, and now you need to take out something 
like 250,000 patents on anything and everything possible and even likely to 
be tenously linked to protecting your idea, anything near your idea, and how 
to produce your idea, or sell your idea, or do anything likely to be 
possible with your idea. Your opponent pays the role of a patent lawyer, 
trying to navigate through every little crack in your patent portfolio 
armour. It would be a wonderful way of illustrating how one simple creative 
idea requires ten times as much creative ideas just to protect that original 
idea. An excellent introduction to the simplicity of the contemporary world.

Foobulus Barraculus

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From bf at farc.org  Wed Jan 24 07:37:58 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:37:58 -0500
Subject: Light my fire, Lori
Message-ID: <3A6EF695.16B8EC5F@farc.org>


At 08:53 PM 1/23/01 -0500, Lori Banks wrote:
>Mr. May,
>
>Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he
says
>that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being
>stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up

He does not want to tell you (to your face) that he is self-sovereign,
not your property any more.

... must be a
>"Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it

Sealed with blood & semen of course... have pets been disappearing in
your neighborhood recently?

... I >think that he's hiding something personally .... something that
will hurt >our relationship

Yeah maybe he's a control freak too.

-- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried dilligently
>to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally

Juss wike a widdle puppy...

>... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers
website in
>which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I
mean
>... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I

>could do it"

So he manufactures and distributes tools used for criminal denial of
service?
Do go on, dear lady..

>... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I
>just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program"

You'll let us in to search his computer, now, won't you?  We don't
need to bother with a nasty warrant now, do we?  You don't want to
be an accomplice, do you?  He might still be able to be treated as
a juvinile...

... see, I
>told you that he's very bright!!

Yes, intelligence isn't entirely hereditary dearie..

>.... just want to see him use it for a good >purpose ... one that he
can look back on and feel accomplishment.....  so
>does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts?
>
>Thanks again,
>Mrs. Banks

Oh yes, we like to light your fuel.  More, please.

Anything you say can and may be used against you.  Plus, its archived.
Forever.  Your Permenent Record, baby.







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 24 11:46:17 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:46:17 -0800
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <3A6ECA0E.F53C278E@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231406380.6394-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010124114617.01b84ae0@idiom.com>


At 01:26 PM 1/24/01 +0100, Tom wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
>> You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
>> idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now owned by
>> Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)
>
>wouldn't that be perfect? a "collectable patent card game", as a way to
>criticise patents (by using the most ridiculous ones on the cards),
>which in itself violates a patent... hm, I like the idea...
>
>"combine the 'patent for display of blablah' with the 'method or device
>for remote information acquisition' and you can cross-license that
>against your enemie's 'global computer network patent' for 10 points."
>

I'll take "Famous Patent Lawyers" for $200

...




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Jan 24 04:20:16 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:20:16 +0100
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010123072336.5612s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A6EC880.BCF6F626@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> > It's worth reading the Illuminatus! trilogy first.
> > I tried finding that in used book stores a decade or so ago,
> > and for a while there was a Conspiracy to prevent me from
> > collecting the whole set....
> 
> I just knew somebody was going to bring Wilson's trilogy up. I think
> there are actually four books (a conspiracy by the Gnomes of Zurich I
> bet), I've seen the first three bound together in pbk.

there's 3 books in the trilogy, but a couple of other ones which are
related to the topic. as the trilogy, quality varies widely within the
books. some pages are great, others aren't worth the dead tree.




From Lori at bornagn.com  Wed Jan 24 11:23:37 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:23:37 -0600
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101231741210.23072-100000@centerone.com> <004a01c08590$e3efc3e0$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net> <a05010401b693e287ecbd@[207.111.241.195]> <005701c08596$e2fe9e60$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net> <016e01c085bd$2a521730$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <006101c0863b$26e1d260$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>


Dear Me,
I'm his Mother ... he is my business-- thus, his business is my business to
a degree!!  I know that many people do not feel the same way ... it's easier
to let him hide behind the door than to confront the issue ... but his
health and welfare, spiritually, physically and emotionally are more
important to me than a little bit of conflict!  And ... just to let you know
... he respects me more than to tell me to ... whatever that means ... but,
I have a feeling it's not nice.  Thanks for your comments though ...
Blessings,
Mrs. Banks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Me" <commerce at home.com>
To: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>; <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
>
> >he says that he knows that he should allow me
> >to have access, that he's being stubborn, and
> > that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up
>
> What he means, is that he doesn't want to share his password
> because he feels it is none of your business.  He is also
> reluctant to tell you to FOAD.
>
> >must be a "Hackers Oath" or something that's
> >not allowing him to divulge it ...
>
> One of those 'or something's, probably.
>
> >I think that he's hiding something personally
>
> Duh.
>
>
>




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Jan 24 04:26:54 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:26:54 +0100
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231406380.6394-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3A6ECA0E.F53C278E@ricardo.de>


Alan Olsen wrote:
> You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
> idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now owned by
> Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)

wouldn't that be perfect? a "collectable patent card game", as a way to
criticise patents (by using the most ridiculous ones on the cards),
which in itself violates a patent... hm, I like the idea...


"combine the 'patent for display of blablah' with the 'method or device
for remote information acquisition' and you can cross-license that
against your enemie's 'global computer network patent' for 10 points."




From abs at squig.org  Wed Jan 24 13:36:17 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Archrives of cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101241334260.11595-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


Lori,

You are aware, aren't you, that everything you have sent to the
Cypherpunks list is viewable on the web?

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks

I wonder what your son will say when he sees this.

Enjoy! 




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Jan 24 12:16:27 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:16:27 -0600
Subject: Reason magazine - What the future holds...
Message-ID: <3A6F381B.CBBB4C8C@dev.tivoli.com>


http://reason.com/hod/rb110900.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 24 15:29:58 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:29:58 -0800
Subject: APM: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for
  (En/De)cryption Question (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010124171455.5612F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010124152958.00a0ce40@idiom.com>


Isn't this really equivalent to using Conventional-only encryption
instead of public-key encryption?  Or is there some reason you want
to keep a public key in the process?  As with any customer-chosen
passphrase, there's the wimpy-passphrase problem, but you could
do something with salt to help strengthen it.
And avoiding public key should speed up your protocol a good bit,
though you've still got a public-key phase in your SSL.

At 05:15 PM 1/24/01 -0600, Jim Choate Forwarded:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0600
>From: David Bluestein II <dbii at mudpuddle.com>
>To: austin-pm at pm.org
>Subject: APM: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for (En/De)cryption Question
>
>I have a question. I want to use GnuPG (or any suitable open source
>alternative) to encrypt a credit card to store in a database. The client
>wants to decrypt them on the server and view them over an SSL connection. I
>can encrypt without a problem, but to decrypt I know I at least need the
>passphrase, but then that makes me leave the private key on the server
>(bad!). Is there a way to send both the passphrase and private key to the
>Perl GnuPG interface and have it decrypted in memory to send via SSL?
>
>We're trying to avoid having the client install the decryption software on
>their desktop (client's being such as they are) and just provide either the
>private key or the passphrase/Private key.
>
>Thanks-
>
>David
>
>----------
>David H. Bluestein II                         President & Lead Developer
>dbii at mudpuddle.com                         ii, inc.
>
>http://www.interaction.net
>-        Specializing in Designing Interactive Websites        -
>-              and Searchable Internet Databases                   -
>
>
>
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Jan 24 12:41:28 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:41:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FC: Supreme Court agrees to hear morphed kiddie porn case
Message-ID: <200101242041.PAA09459@www7.aa.psiweb.com>


I hope there is a separate sub-challenge on someone being
caught with non-children-"child porno" being labeled a
sex offender.

Talk about thought crime...




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From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 24 Jan 2001 16:01:44 -0800
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20010125000144.5740.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com>


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From Lori at bornagn.com  Wed Jan 24 13:23:23 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:23:23 -0500
Subject: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank
References: <Pine.BSF.4.01.10101232047050.23072-100000@centerone.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c0863a$55ea0880$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>


----- Original Message ----- 
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Ralph Forsythe" <ralph at centerone.com>
To: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>
Cc: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank


> These programs are not what I'd consider to be hacking programs, per se.
> They are not gaining illegal access on anything, or doing any damage.  He
> might be royally annoying some people on the net, but that's about it.
I agree that it's not specifically hacking ... yet .... it's the principle behind it -- the gaming site sets up certain rules, he doesn't like the rules and goes around the rules to do what he wants .... not only does he do that for himself, but he then, puts his unban program on his website and invites other people to break the rules with him ... now, seriously, would you allow your daugther to participate in an activity that she's been banned from and then allow her to set the example before others and encourage them to do the same thing? .... I guess you wouldn't call it ... illegal ... here's another instance .... he actually boasts that he has "hacked" into other peoples' computers ..... isn't that computer space private property -- would you want someone snooping through your files??  Granted, he doesn't do it for destructive reasons ... I believe that he's just seeing if he can .... and ... actually, in the long run ... if he is to protect computing environments that he is responsible for ... it's good to know how the enemy attacks to prevent being attacked -- which is his defense .... but it's mostly the idea of ... trespassing into others' private space and the principle behind it..... what's your opinion on that, please?  OK --- I'm putting this in bold just so its' easy to read ... if, in cryptographic circles this means something (:0) ) ... no intent here ... gotta watch these guys on the list .... I'm coming in peace with a white flag ....
> 
> Actually, kudos to your son ... You have to understand that most people
> using the programs like your son's have never taken the time to learn how
> they work, but just download them and use them.  Very few people take the
> time to write the code themselves; to learn how the processes take place,
> or why what's happening is the way it is.
yes ... he's very motivated and for that I am encouraging him ... I do not want to crush his desire to learn and educate himself .... he's got a gift for computing and the curiosity to learn -- and, he's not involved with alot of the other junk out there that a majority of teens are these days ... for that I am very thankful.... I believe that has to do with his raising.  He knows that his life is special and wants to work towards what will benefit him and others most within the will of the Lord.
> 
> I'd imagine quite a few people on this list have, at one time or another,
> written programs that do things to piss people off, but in the end cause
> no real harm.  Some of us have written programs to crack password files
> even, just to "see if we can".  That doesn't mean we're out there
> downloading passwords and breaking into sites worldwide.  (Well, most of
> us anyway...)
... snicker, snicker .... I understand this .... I just happen to be one of those people that would rather serve others than cause them stress and such ... but the "if we can" ... is typically living on the edge ... cracking Pandora's box just to see what might be in there ....
> 
> To be honest, it's exactly because I was able to tinker and try these
> things out that I have a good paying job in the computer security field,
> am respected by my peers, and continue to accomplish new things.  I
> *absolutely* look back on my past and feel accomplishment.  If your son
> was posting script kiddie crap like "I 0wn j00 l0053r5" (I owned you
> loosers, in english) on web sites that would be different.  He's already
> above that.  And that "hackers oath" is also exactly what defines the line
> between maliscious and constructive behavior.
.... I want him to look back at what he does and feel that same accomplishment .... he did get the term "lamers" off of some of his zone friends ... are you familiar with that gaming website ... zone.net?  Any information one way or another about it's content, environment, etc ... what I've seen is not that great.

> 
> I don't know you, and I don't know your son.  But at least in regards to
> this, DEFINITELY encourage him to keep at it if he likes it.  He'll likely
> land a great job someday because of it.  Just make sure he knows where to
> draw the line between constructive learning and illegal activity that
> tends to make cops come to your house...
> 
> (Man I just feel all warm and fuzzy all of a sudden....)
.... thanks for the time .... I've enjoyed your comments .... 
Blessings,
Mrs. Banks

> 
> - Ralph
> 
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:
> 
> > Mr. May,
> > 
> > Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he says
> > that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being
> > stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up ... must be a
> > "Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ... I
> > think that he's hiding something personally .... something that will hurt
> > our relationship -- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried dilligently
> > to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally -- whatever he's got
> > ... I'm in there for the long run and we'll be  better people when we
> > resolve the conflict!!  ... I understand certain temptations, desires, ect
> > ... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers website in
> > which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I mean
> > ... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I
> > could do it" ... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I
> > just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program" ... see, I
> > told you that he's very bright!! .... just want to see him use it for a good
> > purpose ... one that he can look back on and feel accomplishment.....  so
> > does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts?
> > 
> 
> 
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From sportinggoods at excite.com  Wed Jan 24 13:32:25 2001
From: sportinggoods at excite.com (sportinggoods at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:32:25 -0500
Subject: don't miss out
Message-ID: <200101242139.PAA23250@einstein.ssz.com>

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From sportinggoods at excite.com  Wed Jan 24 13:38:07 2001
From: sportinggoods at excite.com (sportinggoods at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:38:07 -0500
Subject: own your own business within 24 hours
Message-ID: <200101242144.PAA23362@einstein.ssz.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 24 16:47:23 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:47:23 -0800
Subject: Microsoft DNS back up.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010124180823.00a90ad0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010124164723.01b4b9a0@idiom.com>


Declan - Microsoft's DNS is back up; the article in
The Register  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16340.html
says their problems were due to DNS issues, not security
or denial of service attacks.

Previous story about it being down
	http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16321.html

There's much discussion on Slashdot,
	http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/24/1455247&mode=thread
but not much of it's useful :-)

With Microsoft trying last year to push the term
"Digital Nervous System" to usurp the acronym DNS,
in spite of it being the third or fourth most important
aspect of the Internet (and one of the most controversial),
having a Digital Nervous Breakdown seems like poetic justice.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Jan 24 08:12:09 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:12:09 +0100
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
References: <F696YEFmsQSktLxHbHu00002c7a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A6EFED9.1C11E98A@ricardo.de>


Foobulus Baracculus wrote:
> Alan Olsen:

that was actually me. :)


> wouldn't that be perfect? a "collectable patent card game", as a way to
> criticise patents (by using the most ridiculous ones on the cards),
> which in itself violates a patent... hm, I like the idea...
> 
> "combine the 'patent for display of blablah' with the 'method or device
> for remote information acquisition' and you can cross-license that
> against your enemie's 'global computer network patent' for 10 points."
> 
> ...
> 
> This would be a fabulous way of introducing young children into the new
> emerging world.

plus make the issue easier to understand. well, since games is a hobby
of mine (both playing and creating), I'll give this some thought.




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Jan 24 15:15:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:15:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: APM: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for (En/De)cryption Question (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010124171455.5612F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0600
From: David Bluestein II <dbii at mudpuddle.com>
To: austin-pm at pm.org
Subject: APM: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for (En/De)cryption Question

I have a question. I want to use GnuPG (or any suitable open source
alternative) to encrypt a credit card to store in a database. The client
wants to decrypt them on the server and view them over an SSL connection. I
can encrypt without a problem, but to decrypt I know I at least need the
passphrase, but then that makes me leave the private key on the server
(bad!). Is there a way to send both the passphrase and private key to the
Perl GnuPG interface and have it decrypted in memory to send via SSL?

We're trying to avoid having the client install the decryption software on
their desktop (client's being such as they are) and just provide either the
private key or the passphrase/Private key.

Thanks-

David

----------
David H. Bluestein II                         President & Lead Developer
dbii at mudpuddle.com                         ii, inc.

http://www.interaction.net
-        Specializing in Designing Interactive Websites        -
-              and Searchable Internet Databases                   -





From Gagler at iml103.datareturn.com  Wed Jan 24 15:31:00 2001
From: Gagler at iml103.datareturn.com (Gagler)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:31:00 -0600
Subject: Unsubscribe broken while you spam this address
References: <NDBBIBIGNFLMCGPHDLKEGEJPCBAA.netsurf@sersol.com>
Message-ID: <002301c0865d$b65ecac0$8c01000a@worldbynet.local>


And I will tell each of you the same thing I sent to you earlier this week-

There is not an email address of cyberpunks at toad.com subscribed to Gagler's
Joke of the Day.

Now that we have that established (yet again), did you ever think about
this: could there be a different email address one of you subscribed under,
which automatically goes to your distribution list?  Is there a member of
the list's name/email who could be receiving one of our mailings as a
subscriber, and that email is automatically forwarded to your distribution
list?

Look, I asked for *one* copy of one of the daily emails so I can see how the
mail server has you subscribed so we can get this taken care of - strangely,
each of you would rather just send flame emails than try and correct your
problem.

When you feel like acting like an adult, please feel free to contact me.
Threatening someone who has 300,000+ people on a mailing list who will
generally do things as requested, such as myself, with spam is rather
stupid, don't you think?

Regards,

Michael



----- Original Message -----
From: "James Wilson" <netsurf at sersol.com>
To: "A. Melon" <juicy at melontraffickers.com>; <cypherpunks at toad.com>;
<gagler at gagler.com>; <ip.engineering at datareturn.com>; <abuse at datareturn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: Unsubscribe broken while you spam this address


> Send them the bounce messages that show that their unsubscribe script is
> broken.
>
> They also need a clue-by-four upside the head for their piss-poor
attitude.
>
> If everyone on the list sent complaints to abuse at datareturn.com,
> root at datareturn.com, ip.engineering at datareturn.com we might get some
action
> as well, since datareturn.com are the ISP who host the spammers website.
>
> Host info www.gagler.com 2/3000/50/0; 01/24/01 08:22:03
>
> Official name: gagler.com
> IP address: 216.46.248.162
> Aliases: www.gagler.com
>          www.gagler.com
>
> host is reachable at 216.46.248.162 with 60 millisecond round trip time
>
> ata Return (NETBLK-DATARETURN-1BLK)
>    222 W. Las Colinas Blvd. Suite 450
>    Irving, TX 75039
>    us
>
>    Netname: DATARETURN-1BLK
>    Netblock: 216.46.224.0 - 216.46.255.255
>    Maintainer: DATR
>
>    Coordinator:
>       Data Return  (ZD16-ARIN)  IP.Engineering at datareturn.com
>       972-869-0770
>
>    Domain System inverse mapping provided by:
>
>    NS1.DATARETURN.COM 209.12.95.2
>    NS2.DATARETURN.COM 209.12.95.102
>
>    Record last updated on 19-Jul-2000.
>    Database last updated on 24-Jan-2001 07:54:28 EDT.
>
> The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
> Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's.
> Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related
> Information and whois.nic.mil for NIPRNET Information.
>
> -
> James D. Wilson, CCDA, MCP
> "non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
> William of Ockham (1285-1347/49)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at toad.com]On
> Behalf Of A. Melon
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 1:09 AM
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com; gagler at gagler.com
> Subject: Re: Unsubscribe broken while you spam this address
>
>
> > Which one of our 8 lists could you not followthe instructions?
> >
> > Thanks-
> >
> > Gagler
>
> Why don't we subscribe Gagler at Gagler.com to the cypherpunks list? It is
> absurd that they haven't removed cypherpunks at toad.com from their jokes
> list, after being asked repeatedly.
>
>




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Jan 24 16:25:10 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:25:10 -0500
Subject: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for (En/De)cryption Question (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010124171455.5612F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEJLCFAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


Well here are two options:

The elegant but somewhat painful method:
1.  The client generates an encrypted credit card using the secret.  The
client opens an ssl session with the server and uploads the encrypted credit
card to the server (this proc can be automated at the client machine so your
client doesn't need to go through many steps).
2.  When retrieving information, the client to opens an ssl session with the
server, sends the private key manually (via ssl) to the server, and have the
server process the decryption in memory.
The above requires the client to both upload the credit card and the secret
key to the server.  The reference information you can use to locate the
correct credit card could be the client's name or login name or address,
etc. etc.

The no so elegant but works almost all of the time method:
1.  You enter the encrypted credit card number into the server database.
2.  Client opens an SSL session with the server and submits the secret key
(via ssl) to the server.  server decrypts the credit card in memory and
performs a Mod 10 check on the result (if it fails the mod 10, the decrypt
didn't work because it isn't a valid credit card #).  Another way to verify
decryption is to store the last 1 digit of the credit card number and verify
that against the decrypted card.  The best way, if you're attached to a
payment gateway, is to verify the validity of the card via the merchant bank
(this can be done at no charge to the customer, but it costs the merchant a
min. fee -- usually around $.25).

Of course the best thing to do is to authenticate the client to the server
and ask the server to retrieve only the record pertaining to that client via
a covert channel (the trusted information kind, not the cia/nsa kind).

Phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 6:15 PM
To: austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: APM: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for (En/De)cryption
Question (fwd)





    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0600
From: David Bluestein II <dbii at mudpuddle.com>
To: austin-pm at pm.org
Subject: APM: GnuPG and Perl GnuPG Interface for (En/De)cryption Question

I have a question. I want to use GnuPG (or any suitable open source
alternative) to encrypt a credit card to store in a database. The client
wants to decrypt them on the server and view them over an SSL connection. I
can encrypt without a problem, but to decrypt I know I at least need the
passphrase, but then that makes me leave the private key on the server
(bad!). Is there a way to send both the passphrase and private key to the
Perl GnuPG interface and have it decrypted in memory to send via SSL?

We're trying to avoid having the client install the decryption software on
their desktop (client's being such as they are) and just provide either the
private key or the passphrase/Private key.

Thanks-

David

----------
David H. Bluestein II                         President & Lead Developer
dbii at mudpuddle.com                         ii, inc.

http://www.interaction.net
-        Specializing in Designing Interactive Websites        -
-              and Searchable Internet Databases                   -






From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 24 16:45:11 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:45:11 -0500
Subject: Microsoft DNS back up.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010124164723.01b4b9a0@idiom.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010124180823.00a90ad0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010124194446.00a8d130@mail.well.com>


Yep, it's back up for me too. I noticed it at 7:33 pm ET.

I'm on the phone with MS right now getting the, sigh, runaround.

-Declan


At 04:47 PM 1/24/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Declan - Microsoft's DNS is back up; the article in
>The Register  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16340.html
>says their problems were due to DNS issues, not security
>or denial of service attacks.
>
>Previous story about it being down
>         http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16321.html
>
>There's much discussion on Slashdot,
>         http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/24/1455247&mode=thread
>but not much of it's useful :-)
>
>With Microsoft trying last year to push the term
>"Digital Nervous System" to usurp the acronym DNS,
>in spite of it being the third or fourth most important
>aspect of the Internet (and one of the most controversial),
>having a Digital Nervous Breakdown seems like poetic justice.
>
>
>                                 Thanks!
>                                         Bill
>Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
>PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bewell at rational.com  Wed Jan 24 23:05:16 2001
From: bewell at rational.com (Ewell, Barry)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:05:16 -0800
Subject: Include Your Java Applets in New Java Community
Message-ID: <80EFAAF22081214E95FC7DB9805F3ED9C82441@SUS-WA1IT01.rational.com>


I am Barry Ewell.  I am in the process of the developing an exciting new
Java Community with sponsors like Rational Software. It is scheduled to go
live in February.  

The site will focus on the needs of and desired resources of the entire Java
development team.  The site will be promoted monthly to the international
Java community. 

I would like to include your applets as part of the site.  If you have more
than one, that is great.   I will make sure you have a chance to preview the
site and your appletss before the site goes live to make sure that we have
represented them as you desire.

Would you be willing to place your applets on the site?  If so, please
return this e-mail with 

		1.	Your approval.
		2.	Title and Category
		3.	Download (If you have more than one that's fine)
			or link to the download.
		4.	Written description of the applet.
				*	One line overview.
				*	Short Overview.
				*	Any other information that is
important.
		5.	Any instructions.
			Do you want e-mails to come to you as to who
downloads them?
			And so on.


I look forward to working with you.

PS.  Are you a writer? Do you have articles, Whitepapers, FAQ's or other
writings about Java that you could share with the community?  Then please
send us the link , your instructions, and we will do the rest.



Rational
        the e-development company

Barry J. Ewell
Sr. Product Marketing Manager 
Visual Modeling and Developer Tools
425-556-3018 Direct Line
425-556-3001 Office Fax
206-910-4991 Cell Phone
bewell at rational.com  e-mail




From scout at k2net.cc  Wed Jan 24 20:25:10 2001
From: scout at k2net.cc (Adam Carleton)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:25:10 -0500
Subject: The resume you posted online
Message-ID: <20010124233121.SM01412@k2net.cc>


After seeing your resume, I feel that you could be an excellent candidate 
for at least one of the positions our company is currently seeking to fill. 
 
Please visit our website at www.efashionshowjobs.com, and go to the career 
opportunities section.  It will list the positions currently available, and 
a brief description of those positions.
 
If you feel you might qualify for one of the positions I would look forward 
to hearing from you. 
 
Adam Carleton
Director of Human Resources
EFashionshow


Note: To remove yourself from future mailings type "remove" in subject line 
and mail to remove at efashionshowjobs.com.




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Jan 24 23:31:19 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:31:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101250107430.9117-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101242328570.12101-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> > You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
> > idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now owned by
> > Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)
> 
> Wait, there are non-Hasbro collectable card games, aren't there? Do they
> all simply license from Hasbro? 

The WotC patent was recieved well after there were other card games in
production.

WotC said that they were not going to press the patent.  I have not heard
much more about it since the original flap over the patent being granted.

> In any case, simple collectible cards would be all right to start with. So
> what if they "happen" to fall into patterns. They're algorithms!
> 
> "I'll trade you a Floyd-Warshall for a Rabin-Miller, but only if you
> throw in a Nisan-Wigderson Derandomizing Pseudorandom Generator...I'm low
> on randomness." 
> 
> Instead of Mana, have "time," "space," "randomness," and other complexity
> measures. (Death to the first person who suggests "ink.") Trade off
> between the two as appropriate. Special cards ("Blum Speedup Theorem")
> affect resource consumption. Maybe offer other cards which give benefits
> at a cost ("Superstitious Mathematician" - halves time required to run
> algorithms, but doesn't believe in randomness so you lose all randomness
> counters...)

This could get quite silly very fast.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From renegade at texoma.net  Wed Jan 24 23:35:52 2001
From: renegade at texoma.net (Renegade)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:35:52 -0800
Subject: Cell phone snooping - Texas 7
In-Reply-To: <200101080351.TAA10000@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010124233552.007abac0@texoma.net>


Curious article about some cell phone snooping during the capture of the
Texas 7. Not enough details to figure it out, but it seems they were setup
at the roadblock to intecept cell calls.

<http://www.dallasnews.com/metro/270831_main_25met.ART.html>

What is the law on this? I thought they need a court order, and then it was
only good for the specific number(s) only, and had to go through the telco
switch. Didn't know they could just capture every number from a specific
cell site or location. Article implies they had their own little black box
at the site that recorded all calls at that location.




From gnaram at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 24 13:02:58 2001
From: gnaram at hotmail.com (Garam Naram)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:02:58 +0300
Subject: FREE LIVE SEX
Message-ID: <OE73wpGR881Np7vXee4000009e9@hotmail.com>

Give me more informationon how i can have free live sex
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From BHill1234 at aol.com  Wed Jan 24 08:30:22 2001
From: BHill1234 at aol.com (Betty Hill)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:30:22 +0800
Subject: Betty HilI has just sent you $200.00 with PayPal
Message-ID: <200101250828.AA16890@mimosa.singnet.com.sg>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 25 00:35:26 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:35:26 -0800
Subject: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
In-Reply-To: <000b01c08543$a3824320$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010125003526.01b45d30@idiom.com>


At 07:51 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Lori Banks wrote:
> I just read an interesting email that you sent concerning cracking .pwl
files.  
>I have a need to crack a .pwl file, but I don't know how to make that
program work. 
> I'm really not computer literate (if you can't tell).  
>I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is 
>not good regarding my teen and the Internet.  
>Could you help me find out what these passwords are or how to work that
program? 
> I downloaded some sort of password pwl program and it showed 17 passwords, 
>but they are encrypted. Any help would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks,
Mrs. Banks  

Mrs. Banks - Cypherpunks is a large, noisy mailing list.
In addition to talking about cryptography, privacy, and the effects
on economics and politics of being able to talk and conduct business
without government interference, and random other topics,
we end up receiving lots of mail from people pretending to be
teenagers asking us about bombs, hacking, credit cards, etc.
Some of them are clueless kiddies who think we'll tell them
how to steal stuff to make bombs so they can be rilly kewl d00ds,
some of them are annoying kiddies who've found they can stir up
lots of annoyed discussion by posting provocative or clueless questions,
and some are probably cops who think they can stir up business
by finding people doing stuff with Bombs and Computer Crime
that make good headline material.*

So don't be surprised if readers like Blank Frank take you for 
one of these three categories (start at the middle and work your way out),
and either gives you the flames you're looking for or
the abuse you deserve if you're one of the clueless types.
Your message could be perfectly legitimate, but it's just
dripping with troll bait....  We haven't had anybody
saying their somebody's Mom who wants to break into her kid's
machine before, but hey, there's a first time for everything.
On the other hand, many of us were once teenagers who had
parents who didn't understand us (what a surprise, eh?)
and a request saying "I don't trust my kid and I want to crack
his passwords to spy on him" isn't guaranteed to get more
sympathy for you than for your kid.

Anyway, that being said, there are only a few reasons for having
lots of Microsoft password files around.  One is that your son has created
lots of logins on your home computer, either for his friends to use
or because he's creating lots of different identities for himself.
The former is something you may want to talk to him about,
depending on how much control you want to have over that computer
(is it his bedroom game machine or are you running the family business on it?)
Another is that he has logins of his own on multiple machines using
Microsoft-style logins.   That's kind of odd - is he running a bunch
of web pages on FrontPage-based servers, or is he cracking into
corporate machines?

The "17 passwords" is pretty close to a magic number, which is the number
of "access devices" it takes for possessing stolen/cracked passwords
to become a US Federal crime.  I forget if the number is 15,
in which case by asking us to crack them you're asking us to
commit a Federal crime (remember the discussion about cops trying
to win friends and influence headlines through entrapment?),
depending on whether you have authorization to access the machines
that those passwords apply to (if you give us permission to crack the
passwords for your own machine, it's not a crime, but if they're
the passwords for your kid's publishing accounts on commercial porn sites,
that might be criminal, and if they're for accounts your kid's
trying to break into, or if you're really the kid or a cop,
it could be criminal.)  

So if you're thinking about breaking into your kid's machine,
because you don't trust him, yes, you've got some relationship
problems you'll have to deal with.  Not much different from asking
your kid where he went and having him say "Out" - either you go
ask all the neighbors where he went because he won't tell you,
or you work on the relationship, or you hire a private detective
to track him, just as you could probably hire Access Data or somebody
to break his password files, if you were willing to risk criminality.
I'd recommend going for the relationship....


===================
*  (Perhaps some are even good cops trying to do what they think is 
their job by stopping clueless kiddies from posting dangerous inaccurate 
information where more clueless kiddies will find it.  
We do have some cops and Feds on the list that are open about it, 
and they're good folks we go shooting with :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From abs at squig.org  Thu Jan 25 00:53:23 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:53:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Betty HilI has just sent you $200.00 with PayPal
In-Reply-To: <200101250828.AA16890@mimosa.singnet.com.sg>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101250051500.12166-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Betty Hill wrote:

> Simply click <a
> href=http://paypalregistration.cjb.net/>http://www.PayPal.com/links/uni</a>

Interesting scam. I wonder how many people are falling for this.

Alex




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 25 01:17:36 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 01:17:36 -0800
Subject: Spam attempting Paypal scam
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010125011736.01bed100@idiom.com>

The cypherpunks and coderpunks lists just received spam from
"Betty Hill" saying you've just been sent $200.  

	Simply click 
	<a
href=http://paypalregistration.cjb.net/>http://www.PayPal.com/links/uni</a> 
	and complete the one-page registration form to claim your money. 

CJB.net is a free URL redirection service - it would have pointed off
to somewhere (presumably a moving target) to snarf up some Paypal
account information and any other data it could.
The anonymizer couldn't display it, either because it's closed down
or just one of those things that the Anonymizer can't grok,
but it is an interesting scam.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Jan 24 22:17:57 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 01:17:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231406380.6394-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101250107430.9117-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
> idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now owned by
> Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)

Wait, there are non-Hasbro collectable card games, aren't there? Do they
all simply license from Hasbro? 

In any case, simple collectible cards would be all right to start with. So
what if they "happen" to fall into patterns. They're algorithms!

"I'll trade you a Floyd-Warshall for a Rabin-Miller, but only if you
throw in a Nisan-Wigderson Derandomizing Pseudorandom Generator...I'm low
on randomness." 

Instead of Mana, have "time," "space," "randomness," and other complexity
measures. (Death to the first person who suggests "ink.") Trade off
between the two as appropriate. Special cards ("Blum Speedup Theorem")
affect resource consumption. Maybe offer other cards which give benefits
at a cost ("Superstitious Mathematician" - halves time required to run
algorithms, but doesn't believe in randomness so you lose all randomness
counters...)

-David




From ajenks at microsoft.com  Thu Jan 25 01:18:40 2001
From: ajenks at microsoft.com (Andrew Jenks)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 01:18:40 -0800
Subject: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
Message-ID: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119566@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>


You can always chat with MS about "fixing" the password problems.  If
your child is a minor, you've got the right to access that information
(and depending upon your state, maybe even if he isn't).

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Stewart [mailto:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 12:35 AM
To: Lori Banks; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Blank Frank and Lori Banks


At 07:51 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Lori Banks wrote:
> I just read an interesting email that you sent concerning cracking
.pwl
files.  
>I have a need to crack a .pwl file, but I don't know how to make that
program work. 
> I'm really not computer literate (if you can't tell).  
>I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is 
>not good regarding my teen and the Internet.  
>Could you help me find out what these passwords are or how to work that
program? 
> I downloaded some sort of password pwl program and it showed 17
passwords, 
>but they are encrypted. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mrs. Banks  

Mrs. Banks - Cypherpunks is a large, noisy mailing list.
In addition to talking about cryptography, privacy, and the effects
on economics and politics of being able to talk and conduct business
without government interference, and random other topics,
we end up receiving lots of mail from people pretending to be
teenagers asking us about bombs, hacking, credit cards, etc.
Some of them are clueless kiddies who think we'll tell them
how to steal stuff to make bombs so they can be rilly kewl d00ds,
some of them are annoying kiddies who've found they can stir up
lots of annoyed discussion by posting provocative or clueless questions,
and some are probably cops who think they can stir up business
by finding people doing stuff with Bombs and Computer Crime
that make good headline material.*

So don't be surprised if readers like Blank Frank take you for 
one of these three categories (start at the middle and work your way
out),
and either gives you the flames you're looking for or
the abuse you deserve if you're one of the clueless types.
Your message could be perfectly legitimate, but it's just
dripping with troll bait....  We haven't had anybody
saying their somebody's Mom who wants to break into her kid's
machine before, but hey, there's a first time for everything.
On the other hand, many of us were once teenagers who had
parents who didn't understand us (what a surprise, eh?)
and a request saying "I don't trust my kid and I want to crack
his passwords to spy on him" isn't guaranteed to get more
sympathy for you than for your kid.

Anyway, that being said, there are only a few reasons for having
lots of Microsoft password files around.  One is that your son has
created
lots of logins on your home computer, either for his friends to use
or because he's creating lots of different identities for himself.
The former is something you may want to talk to him about,
depending on how much control you want to have over that computer
(is it his bedroom game machine or are you running the family business
on it?)
Another is that he has logins of his own on multiple machines using
Microsoft-style logins.   That's kind of odd - is he running a bunch
of web pages on FrontPage-based servers, or is he cracking into
corporate machines?

The "17 passwords" is pretty close to a magic number, which is the
number
of "access devices" it takes for possessing stolen/cracked passwords
to become a US Federal crime.  I forget if the number is 15,
in which case by asking us to crack them you're asking us to
commit a Federal crime (remember the discussion about cops trying
to win friends and influence headlines through entrapment?),
depending on whether you have authorization to access the machines
that those passwords apply to (if you give us permission to crack the
passwords for your own machine, it's not a crime, but if they're
the passwords for your kid's publishing accounts on commercial porn
sites,
that might be criminal, and if they're for accounts your kid's
trying to break into, or if you're really the kid or a cop,
it could be criminal.)  

So if you're thinking about breaking into your kid's machine,
because you don't trust him, yes, you've got some relationship
problems you'll have to deal with.  Not much different from asking
your kid where he went and having him say "Out" - either you go
ask all the neighbors where he went because he won't tell you,
or you work on the relationship, or you hire a private detective
to track him, just as you could probably hire Access Data or somebody
to break his password files, if you were willing to risk criminality.
I'd recommend going for the relationship....


===================
*  (Perhaps some are even good cops trying to do what they think is 
their job by stopping clueless kiddies from posting dangerous inaccurate

information where more clueless kiddies will find it.  
We do have some cops and Feds on the list that are open about it, 
and they're good folks we go shooting with :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Wed Jan 24 23:24:27 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:24:27 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <200101250723.CAA12914@domains.invweb.net>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Wed Jan 24 23:38:34 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:38:34 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C6A@exchange.sfocorp.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Wed Jan 24 23:52:36 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:52:36 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44301@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Jan 24 23:59:26 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:59:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101242328570.12101-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101250253390.16517-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:


> WotC said that they were not going to press the patent.  I have not heard
> much more about it since the original flap over the patent being granted.

That's a relief. 

> > between the two as appropriate. Special cards ("Blum Speedup Theorem")
> > affect resource consumption. Maybe offer other cards which give benefits
> > at a cost ("Superstitious Mathematician" - halves time required to run
> > algorithms, but doesn't believe in randomness so you lose all randomness
> > counters...)
> 
> This could get quite silly very fast.

Yup! That's a bad thing? 

OK, maybe it would lead to too many in-jokes...

-David




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Jan 25 05:41:36 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:41:36 -0600
Subject: Computer Soon May Be Able To Tell Who Wrote What
Message-ID: <3A702D10.BDD146AE@ssz.com>


http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0125016.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Lori at bornagn.com  Thu Jan 25 06:18:12 2001
From: Lori at bornagn.com (Lori Banks)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:18:12 -0600
Subject: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
References: <3.0.5.32.20010125003526.01b45d30@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <006601c086d9$a6b3cb80$8ab2933f@lebanon.totalweb.net>


Mr. Stewart,

I've just went out to the search engine I used to find the link that brought
me to a message from someone (Frank someone) who gave code for a cracking
the .pwl file program.  I merely sent a message to that person -- who I
guess was a patron of the cypherpunks list -- which, of course, IF I knew
that it would've been broadcast across the nation, I would not have asked
.... at any rate, I can see that I've made a grande mistake --
unfortunately, it was my first attempt at utilizing the Internet for
resources.  If there was any way possible to have my original request
removed and forgotten, I would do so.  I didn't find the original link, of
course ... I don't know why somone would post that out there and then not
help someone who's asking for assistance.  I have decided that I've wasted
entirely too much time trying to ask for assistance from people that do not
want to give the requested assistance, but their opinions.  I have gained
much from a few that have emailed me personally and I appreciate the time
and effort.  It just amazes me that people are so bored in their lives that
they find it necessary to... what's the word you use?  "Flame" ..... I have
made a mistake and have learned a lesson .... next time, I will be more
educated before I send anyone anything.  This cypherpunks list is much more
than I asked for  -- I am not some kiddie trying to do anything -- I can see
where people might do that .... on the otherhand, why would folks want to be
so *ugly* towards anyone?  I can see now why I do not want any of my
children to have access to the nation through the Internet.

In this process, the problem has solved itself, as I knew it would if I left
it in the hands of my Creator -- without the use of the Internet ... again,
thank you for your assistance -- God bless you all as you seek the path in
life that you must travel as I do the same.

Sincerely,
Mrs. Banks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Stewart" <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
To: "Lori Banks" <Lori at bornagn.com>; <cypherpunks at toad.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 2:35 AM
Subject: Re: Blank Frank and Lori Banks


> At 07:51 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Lori Banks wrote:
> > I just read an interesting email that you sent concerning cracking .pwl
> files.
> >I have a need to crack a .pwl file, but I don't know how to make that
> program work.
> > I'm really not computer literate (if you can't tell).
> >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is
> >not good regarding my teen and the Internet.
> >Could you help me find out what these passwords are or how to work that
> program?
> > I downloaded some sort of password pwl program and it showed 17
passwords,
> >but they are encrypted. Any help would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks,
> Mrs. Banks
>
> Mrs. Banks - Cypherpunks is a large, noisy mailing list.
> In addition to talking about cryptography, privacy, and the effects
> on economics and politics of being able to talk and conduct business
> without government interference, and random other topics,
> we end up receiving lots of mail from people pretending to be
> teenagers asking us about bombs, hacking, credit cards, etc.
> Some of them are clueless kiddies who think we'll tell them
> how to steal stuff to make bombs so they can be rilly kewl d00ds,
> some of them are annoying kiddies who've found they can stir up
> lots of annoyed discussion by posting provocative or clueless questions,
> and some are probably cops who think they can stir up business
> by finding people doing stuff with Bombs and Computer Crime
> that make good headline material.*
>
> So don't be surprised if readers like Blank Frank take you for
> one of these three categories (start at the middle and work your way out),
> and either gives you the flames you're looking for or
> the abuse you deserve if you're one of the clueless types.
> Your message could be perfectly legitimate, but it's just
> dripping with troll bait....  We haven't had anybody
> saying their somebody's Mom who wants to break into her kid's
> machine before, but hey, there's a first time for everything.
> On the other hand, many of us were once teenagers who had
> parents who didn't understand us (what a surprise, eh?)
> and a request saying "I don't trust my kid and I want to crack
> his passwords to spy on him" isn't guaranteed to get more
> sympathy for you than for your kid.
>
> Anyway, that being said, there are only a few reasons for having
> lots of Microsoft password files around.  One is that your son has created
> lots of logins on your home computer, either for his friends to use
> or because he's creating lots of different identities for himself.
> The former is something you may want to talk to him about,
> depending on how much control you want to have over that computer
> (is it his bedroom game machine or are you running the family business on
it?)
> Another is that he has logins of his own on multiple machines using
> Microsoft-style logins.   That's kind of odd - is he running a bunch
> of web pages on FrontPage-based servers, or is he cracking into
> corporate machines?
>
> The "17 passwords" is pretty close to a magic number, which is the number
> of "access devices" it takes for possessing stolen/cracked passwords
> to become a US Federal crime.  I forget if the number is 15,
> in which case by asking us to crack them you're asking us to
> commit a Federal crime (remember the discussion about cops trying
> to win friends and influence headlines through entrapment?),
> depending on whether you have authorization to access the machines
> that those passwords apply to (if you give us permission to crack the
> passwords for your own machine, it's not a crime, but if they're
> the passwords for your kid's publishing accounts on commercial porn sites,
> that might be criminal, and if they're for accounts your kid's
> trying to break into, or if you're really the kid or a cop,
> it could be criminal.)
>
> So if you're thinking about breaking into your kid's machine,
> because you don't trust him, yes, you've got some relationship
> problems you'll have to deal with.  Not much different from asking
> your kid where he went and having him say "Out" - either you go
> ask all the neighbors where he went because he won't tell you,
> or you work on the relationship, or you hire a private detective
> to track him, just as you could probably hire Access Data or somebody
> to break his password files, if you were willing to risk criminality.
> I'd recommend going for the relationship....
>
>
> ===================
> *  (Perhaps some are even good cops trying to do what they think is
> their job by stopping clueless kiddies from posting dangerous inaccurate
> information where more clueless kiddies will find it.
> We do have some cops and Feds on the list that are open about it,
> and they're good folks we go shooting with :-)
>
>
> Thanks!
> Bill
> Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
> PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 25 09:04:39 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:04:39 -0800
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <3A7013C8.AD368E5B@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231406380.6394-100000@clueserver.org>
 <3.0.5.32.20010124114617.01b84ae0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010125090439.00a6aa20@idiom.com>



>> >> You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
>> >> idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now
owned by
>> >> Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)

On a slightly more cypherpunkish theme, before Cryptonomicon had the
base-52 Solitaire encryption, there had been some people who'd done
256-card implementations of RC4.  That's a lot of cards -
a 64-card version would still be reasonably secure.
The Illuminati collectable-card-game cards from Steve Jackson Games
would do well (maybe there are 256?), but it's easier to do
something with suits and numbers on lots of the cards;
a Tarot deck has something like 79 cards, and an appropriate
amount of deliberate obfuscation.  
There's also the Silicon Valley Tarot (which first appeared on the web, 
www.svtarot.com, but SJG sells the cards) which has more localized archetypes,
like The Hacker, The Garage, The Ace of Cubicles, Bugs, Encryption.





				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From BHill1234 at aol.com  Wed Jan 24 17:17:12 2001
From: BHill1234 at aol.com (Betty Hill)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:17:12 +0800
Subject: Betty HilI has just sent you $200.00 with PayPal
Message-ID: <200101251715.AA27525@mimosa.singnet.com.sg>


You've got cash!

Betty Hill has just sent you money with PayPal.

Amount: $200.00


Simply click <a href=http://paypaladmin.cjb.net>http://www.PayPal.com/links/uni</a> and complete the one-page registration form to claim your money. For a limited time, if you sign up and activate your account, you will receive a $5 New Account Bonus.

You may withdraw your money at any time by requesting a check or making a direct deposit to your bank account. You can also send the money to your friends.

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Note: If you already have a PayPal account, be sure to log in at <a href=http://paypaladmin.cjb.net>http://www.PayPal.com/</a> and add this email address in the Profile subtab under My Account to collect your money.



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e-mail account at Yahoo! takes longer!"
- Internet.com




From bf at farc.org  Thu Jan 25 08:12:18 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:12:18 -0500
Subject: Closing in on Lori Banks' son
Message-ID: <3A70503A.B9C1485F@farc.org>


Ms Banks has confessed that her son:
* manufactures and distributes criminal DOS tools
* uses them against commercial establishments, probably across state
lines
* has broken into other computers, probably inserted and deleted
information
* has used crypto in the commission of these crimes

We are sure Ms. Banks will let our officers examine her son's computer
without the warrant she has supported.  When are you home, Ms. Banks?
Are there any firearms in the house?











From commerce at home.com  Thu Jan 25 08:59:53 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:59:53 -0500
Subject: Closing in on Lori Banks' son
References: <3A70503A.B9C1485F@farc.org>
Message-ID: <005601c086f0$4174f1b0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Blank Frank" <bf at farc.org>
>We are sure Ms. Banks will let our officers examine
>her son's computer without the warrant she has supported.
>When are you home, Ms. Banks? Are there any firearms in
>the house?

A warning, don't be shocked to find Ms. Banks desiccated cadaver
and lil-John in a wig and dress.





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 25 03:53:44 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:53:44 +0100
Subject: Some other math/crypto sci-fi
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101231406380.6394-100000@clueserver.org> <3.0.5.32.20010124114617.01b84ae0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3A7013C8.AD368E5B@ricardo.de>


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 01:26 PM 1/24/01 +0100, Tom wrote:
> >Alan Olsen wrote:
> >> You could do a collectable card game based on the patent mess, but the
> >> idea of a collectable card game has already been patented.  (Now owned by
> >> Hasbro now that they bought Wizards of the Cost.)
> >
> >wouldn't that be perfect? a "collectable patent card game", as a way to
> >criticise patents (by using the most ridiculous ones on the cards),
> >which in itself violates a patent... hm, I like the idea...
> >
> >"combine the 'patent for display of blablah' with the 'method or device
> >for remote information acquisition' and you can cross-license that
> >against your enemie's 'global computer network patent' for 10 points."
> >
> 
> I'll take "Famous Patent Lawyers" for $200

as a matter of fact, I do think that the game can be done as a variation
of a game called "lunch money". actually, even the theme is quite
compatable. I'll post it here soon.




From edheikki at flash.net  Thu Jan 25 09:58:49 2001
From: edheikki at flash.net (Ed Heikkila)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:58:49 -0500
Subject: Address book
Message-ID: <3A706959.6D7A667F@flash.net>


Some how the Netcenter address book keeps coming up when I select
address.  I would like to go back to the original address book.  I don't
want to loss the addresses in it.  How do I do this?

E. Heikkila

user name: eeheikkila




From team at adultfriendfinder.com  Thu Jan 25 13:42:06 2001
From: team at adultfriendfinder.com (team at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 25 Jan 2001 13:42:06 -0800
Subject: It's a Sexy New Year at Adult Friend Finder!
Message-ID: <20010125214206.18660.qmail@e43.friendfinder.com>


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From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 25 11:24:16 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:24:16 -0500
Subject: Gargoyling, harassment, free speech in Little 'Nam
Message-ID: <3A707ADC.C0C0B21D@mindspring.com>


Thursday, January 25, 2001 |  Print this

story


                                            Free Speech Limits Tested in
Little
                                            Saigon
                                              A judge will decide
whether videotaping
                                            of clients at 'communist'
doctor's office is
                                            harassment or political
protest.

                                            By MAI TRAN, Times Staff
Writer


                                                 For the last two
months, an
                                            anti-Communist demonstrator
has been
                                            videotaping patients as they
enter the
                                            offices of a prominent
Little Saigon doctor
                                            whom he considers a
communist for
                                            supporting normalized trade
with
                                            Vietnam.
                                                 The protest has sparked
a legal battle
                                            over where to draw the line
between free
                                            speech and privacy rights at
a time when
                                            anti-Communist protesters
are
                                            increasingly turning to
these tactics.
                                                 An Orange County judge
last week
                                            temporarily barred the
demonstrator, Duc
                                            Tran, from standing within
100 yards of
                                            the medical clinic. He is
expected to rule
                                            Feb. 3 whether Tran's
protest, which also
                                            includes shouting insults at
patients and
                                            holding signs, amounts to
harassment.
                                                 "He'd follow them
around with his
                                            video camera, screaming and
cursing," said
                                            Edward Susolik, an attorney
for doctor Co
                                            Pham. "He was highly
intimidating."
                                                 This is not the first
time protesters have
                                            used cameras as part of
their campaigns.
                                            Westminster City Councilman
Tony Lam's
                                            restaurant was the target of

                                            anti-Communist protesters
with video
                                            equipment two years ago over
what they
                                            considered his lack of
support for the their
                                            cause.
<snip>
http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20010125/t000007231.html





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan 25 13:06:53 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:06:53 -0500
Subject: Bell Grand Jury 
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20010125210653.00b94ff0@pop.pipeline.com>


This morning I testified before a Grand Jury in
Western Washington District Court, Seattle, which
is investigating Jim Bell for interstate stalking
of federal officials. 

The testimony concerned what I knew about alleged 
CIA employee Mueller and Jim's alleged gathering of 
personsal information about this person.

I provided the Grand Jury my messages to cypherpunks
about this topic which are the only documents I had
to offer in response to the subpoena.

AUSA Robb London conducted most of the questioning,
with some questions from the jury.

Robb said I was not a target of an investigation but
my testimony and/or perjury could change that.

I will attempt to get a transcript of my testimony
and put it on Cryptome. Robb said that is doable
but it will take a judge's order to release. 

Robb said Jim is still in evaluation to determine his 
fitness to represent himself. A trial date will not be 
set until the evaluation is completed and the judge
decides.

Jeff Gordon was in the grand jury suite but did
not attend the hearing.




From confirm at paypal.com  Thu Jan 25 08:27:03 2001
From: confirm at paypal.com (confirm at paypal.com)
Date: 25 Jan 2001 16:27:03 -0000
Subject: PayPal Email Confirmation
Message-ID: <980440023.24674.qmail@superfly.confinity.com>


You're almost done signing up for PayPal!

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click on the following link and enter your password:

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you may also confirm your email address by logging into
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address" and then enter the following confirmation number:


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your browser window begins with http://www.paypal.com or 
https://secure.paypal.com.

*********************************************************************





From mean-green at hushmail.com  Thu Jan 25 16:29:59 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:29:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Offshore Financial Centers Face New Regulatory Pressures
Message-ID: <200101260039.QAA15074@user5.hushmail.com>

Offshore Financial Centers Face New Regulatory Pressures 

BY CHARLES PIGGOTT


St. Peter Port in the Channel Islands  a self-governing crown dependency 
of Britain  is home to Guernsey's growing offshore financial services industry. 
Like most offshore financial centers, it has thrived on the back of the 
surging international wealth-management industry during the past decade. 
In this tranquil harbor town, the offices of large international private 
banks like Credit Suisse now jostle alongside the tourist shops looking 
out over the quayside yachts. This year, bank deposits in Guernsey banks 
topped #60 billion ($88 billion), 8% more than the year before. 

   

The neighboring Channel Island of Jersey, just 15 miles off the coast of 
France, has a similar story to tell. "Money is flowing in and this is very 
encouraging," says Richard Pratt, director-general of Jersey's Financial 
Services Commission. Deposits in Jersey's banks have grown to more than 
#115 billion, while Jersey-based investment funds reached #88 billion earlier 
this year, up 50% from the year before. 

Yet despite the healthy growth of offshore private banking, even well-regulated 
tax shelters like the Channel Islands face a difficult paradox: the more 
successful they become, the more pressure there is to close them down as 
large countries worry over lost tax revenue 

Larger countries want tax shelters to cooperate not just in the fight against 
money laundering and fraud, but in more routine matters of tax collection. 
On the other side of the debate, offshore jurisdictions with minimal tax 
and spending requirements resent outside interference in their internal 
affairs.

Laurie Morgan, Guernsey's most senior politician and president of the island's 
advisory and finance committee, says: "Nobody, not the EU nor the OECD, 
nor any other body is suggesting that we change our tax code, only that 
we apply it fairly to residents and non-residents alike. We have no quarrel 
with other countries taking steps to guarantee their tax revenues, but what 
we do object to is large countries grouping together to bully us into how 
to run our country.

  
 Offshore shelters like Guernsey in the Channel Islands are now confronted 
with calls for greater transparency.   


Since last spring, a series of international initiatives against money laundering,
 tax evasion and bank secrecy have stepped up the pressure on offshore financial 
centers. First, in April the Financial Stability Forum (FSF), a G-7 arm 
set up in the wake of the 1997 Asian financial crisis, published a report 
on offshore financial centers based on a survey of financial regulators. 

The report listed Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Singapore, Switzerland, Dublin 
(Ireland), Guernsey, Isle of Man and Jersey among the best-regulated centers. 
But among the 27 worst-regulated were European centers Cyprus and Liechtenstein.

The FSF report warned that in the event of continued nonadherence to international 
standards of regulation, transparency and cooperation, offshore centers 
could face sanctions including the withdrawal of aid from institutions like 
the International Monetary Fund and other multilateral development organizations. 
The report also suggested that regulators could stop domestic companies 
from doing business with or in problematic offshore financial centers.

In June another intergovernmental group, the Financial Action Task Force,
 published a list of 15 "noncooperative jurisdictions" whose "detrimental 
practices" hamper the fight against money laundering. Included in this list 
were Russia, Lebanon, Israel and Liechtenstein. 
Later that month, the OECD also published a list, this time of 35 "harmful" 
tax shelters. Included in the OECD list are European financial centers such 
as Andorra, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Liechtenstein and 
Monaco. Other centers, such as the Cayman Islands, Cyprus and Malta, missed 
out on inclusion only by promising to cooperate with initiatives to close 
tax loopholes. 

Frances Horner, head of the OECD's tax competition unit in Paris, says: 
"What we want is to stop the illegal nonreporting [of investment income]. 
In other words, we do not want the veil of secrecy in one jurisdiction to 
encourage citizens in any other to break the rules laid down by their own 
domestic authorities." . 

The OECD wants offshore centers to exchange information with overseas tax 
authorities not just in criminal investigations such as serious fraud and 
money laundering, but also in routine civil matters. Tax shelters included 
in the OECD list have until next summer to cooperate or face inclusion in 
a second definitive list of harmful tax shelters and the possibility of 
sanctions from OECD countries. 

Guernsey and Jersey were added to the OECD list after they refused to sign 
a letter of commitment, even though both were given a clean bill of health 
by the other recent reports into offshore financial centers. 

Guernsey politician Mr. Morgan explains: "The OECD wanted us to make the 
highest-level political commitment to do whatsoever it might require in 
the future. We wouldn't dream of signing such an open-ended agreement. So 
now we have 12 months in which to reach an accord." 

Some have complained that the OECD and other groups have given little guidance 
on how blacklisted financial centers can get themselves off the list. Jersey 
Financial Services' Mr. Pratt says: "None of these organizations designed 
a process through which [jurisdictions] can get themselves off these lists 
and they have yet to come up with an appropriate exit strategy." Multilateral 
negotiations between offshore financial centers and intergovernmental groups 
like the OECD and G7 are now likely, but little progress has been made so 
far. 

In addition to mounting pressure from the OECD and G7, low tax jurisdictions 
also need to convince the European Union that they pose no threat to EU 
plans to close tax loopholes on its own doorstep. Like the OECD, the EU 
also wants tax shelters to share information on private bank accounts.

Since 1997, EU member countries have been able to choose between implementing 
information-sharing agreements with other members, or charging a withholding 
tax on savings accounts. After 2010, however, all EU countries will be expected 
to implement information-sharing agreements. This will effect Luxembourg 
and Austria, whose secrecy laws forbid banks from handing over client information 
to foreign tax authorities in all but the most serious criminal investigations.

The abolition of bank-secrecy laws in Europe is still the subject of hot 
debate. Lucien Thiel, managing director of the Luxembourg Bankers' Association 
says: "The problem isn't bank secrecy, but the abuse of bank secrecy, where 
it is used to hide dirty or criminal money."

Both non-EU Switzerland and the EU's Luxembourg abstained from the OECD's 
recent recommendations that countries should loosen bank-secrecy codes. 
Meanwhile, Mr. Thiel says Luxembourg would only agree to EU plans on information 
sharing if non-EU countries accept the same conditions. Luxembourg fears 
that it will lose bank deposits to countries that preserve higher levels 
of confidentiality, particularly Switzerland, if it holds out for bank secrecy.

There are reports that private-bank clients are already reacting to increasing 
disclosure between high-and low-tax jurisdictions. Says Linda Foster, a 
partner at Andersen Consulting in London: "[Offshore] private banks are 
starting to encourage their clients to at least think about full disclosure. 
So yes, money is flowing back onshore, but not necessarily just because 
of tax."

Europe's tax shelters will have to walk a tightrope in the next 12 months 
between cooperating with larger governments and losing deposits to less 
scrupulous jurisdictions. "We must not chase money out of Europe. If other 
countries are not subject to the same conditions, money will simply go further 
afield," says Mr. Thiel, of the Luxembourg Bankers' Association. 


From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Thu Jan 25 14:47:22 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:47:22 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <200101252246.RAA07311@domains.invweb.net>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Thu Jan 25 15:06:56 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:06:56 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C6D@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Thu Jan 25 15:22:26 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:22:26 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44303@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 25 18:24:52 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:24:52 -0800
Subject: questions (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010125201257.28928E-200000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010125201257.28928E-200000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b6968fdaf0fd@[207.111.241.195]>


At 8:13 PM -0600 1/25/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Content-Type: TEXT/HTML; CHARSET=iso-8859-1
>Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010125201257.28928H at einstein.ssz.com>
>Content-Description:
>
>I ran across your site while searching for some type of 
>"bulk-friendly isp"--I am not exactly sure what you have to offer or 
>if you can help us at all.  What we're looking for is a 56k 
>connection, port 25 enabled, that will allow us to send email 
>out--without getting shut down.
>I also left a message on your voicemail.  Any help would be appreciated.
>Thank you,
>Jacob
>253-639-1337


It's bad enough that _you_ spam the list with junks, bad physics, 
HTML and MIME shit, etc., but why the fuck are you now "forwarding" 
requests for help on spamming to our list?


Get some kind of clue, Choate.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Jan 25 12:07:25 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:07:25 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?A_fonte_de_divers=E3o_na_Playstation_2?=
Message-ID: <0955d2507201911WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
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Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição do seu
registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Jan 25 18:13:28 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:13:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: questions (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010125201257.28928E-200000@einstein.ssz.com>


Anybody wanna roast a spammer?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:37:36 -0800
From: Freedom4us <freedom4us at surfree.com>
To: tag at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: questions

I ran across your site while searching for some type of "bulk-friendly isp"--I am not exactly sure what you have to offer or if you can help us at all.  What we're looking for is a 56k connection, port 25 enabled, that will allow us to send email out--without getting shut down.
I also left a message on your voicemail.  Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Jacob
253-639-1337
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From George at Orwellian.Org  Thu Jan 25 22:26:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:26:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
Message-ID: <200101260626.BAA26065@www3.aa.psiweb.com>


JYA wrote:
#    This morning I testified before a Grand Jury in
#    Western Washington District Court, Seattle, which
#    is investigating Jim Bell for interstate stalking
#    of federal officials.

Remind me, how did you get selected for this cash cow?


#    I will attempt to get a transcript of my testimony
#    and put it on Cryptome. Robb said that is doable
#    but it will take a judge's order to release.

And you might run into another person who
gets paid "by the word" - a court transcriber.

At least that's how it worked in Joisey.




From George at Orwellian.Org  Thu Jan 25 23:09:34 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 02:09:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Intra-state == Inter-state
Message-ID: <200101260709.CAA16455@www5.aa.psiweb.com>


I was searching for a story where a major auction house
won (defended against) a copyright complaint that the
image of what was being sold was copyrighted, and came
across this. It was probably posted before, but here
it is again.

If anyone can locate the above story, please let me know.
The old fart I photograph some stuff for on Sothebys had
some of his stuff taken down because of such a silly complaint.

----

http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/cls99/loundy09.html
#    
#    CYBERCRIME (E-MAIL HARASSMENT):  On December 11, a U.S. postal worker named 
#    John Murillo was convicted by a federal jury following a five-day trial 
#    conducted in Federal Court in Laredo, Texas.  The man was accused of 
#    sending an e-mail to a co-worker in which he threatened to "go postal" and 
#    to participate in a "shootout at the O.K. Corral."  The man was convicted 
#    of transporting a threat across state lines because the message passed 
#    through servers located in Tennessee, Georgia, and New Jersey before it 
#    reached its in-state destination.  The man reportedly faces five years in 
#    prison when he is sentenced.  See "Postal Worker Guilty in Threat Via 
#    E-Mail," N.Y. Times, Dec. 13, 1998, at 37, col. 1.  See also 
#    http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+150 
#    +0+wAAA+e-mail. 





From Tempmommy at aol.com  Fri Jan 26 01:03:05 2001
From: Tempmommy at aol.com (Tempmommy at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 04:03:05 EST
Subject: $300.Guaranteed Weekly Salary on Your Computer
Message-ID: <25.1079ab34.27a29749@aol.com>

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<A HREF="http://www.incomeamerica.com">http://www.incomeamerica.com</A>









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From renum2000 at rol.ro  Fri Jan 26 04:32:08 2001
From: renum2000 at rol.ro (renum2000 at rol.ro)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 04:32:08
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <200101260235.SAA13420@cyberpass.net>



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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:29:42 -0500
Subject: Now that you've won $25.00 USD......
Message-ID: <200101261227.EAA12653@toad.com>


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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 26 05:35:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:35:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <3A716AE3.D868B076@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010126072006.28928L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> > Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
> > perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
> > the society born before them.
> 
> That more or less happens these days - there is a sort of lost
> generation born between the late 1950s & about 1970 who  managed to be
> the first age cohort in 200 years who were poorer than their parents, at
> least in Britain (where else did punk rock come from?)

Actually punk rock came from Germany, look up Klaus Nomi and Nina Hagen,
and Canada, P. Orridge and Throbbing Gristle. Klaus is also the first
'famous' person to die from AIDS. Then it moved to NY & Cali. (The Germs
fuckin' rule!). It didn't get to Britian until it had already been
established a couple of years.


    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Jan 26 08:51:15 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:51:15 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Paper Handsets or on Their Way
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010126085024.03e9feb0@pop3.lvcm.com>


Imagine the possibilities...

>Paper Handsets or on Their Way
>
>8:28:04 AM 1/24/2001 Believe it or not a paper mobile phone is due to be 
>land on the market later this year, making an appearance in retail stores, 
>fast food restaurants and vending machines. A U.S. investor has backed the 
>disposable devices, which were created by Randice-Lisa Altschul, and plans 
>to sell them for $10 a pop. Dubbed the Phone-Card-Phone, the paper phone 
>is as thick as three credit cards and is constructed from recycled paper 
>products. The phones will come with 60 minutes of calling time and a 
>hands-free attachment. The phones can be thrown out once the minutes are 
>used, or more minutes can be added. Altschul, who has 22 patents on the 
>technology, says her business, Dieceland Tech Corp., has 100 million units 
>on order. Reported by The Feature.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Jan 26 09:48:58 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:48:58 -0800
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
Message-ID: <3A71B88A.30D5C0D9@lsil.com>


I wonder what's the budget to date for chasing down one apparently not
so dangerous guy? They may be creating, at great expense ( is there
another way for a government to create? ), what it is they want to find.
If they push him over the edge, in 5 years or so they can have a real
manhunt with bullets and everything. What's the saying? 'The race is not
always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to
bet.' Good for The Department ultimately.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Jan 26 10:20:08 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:20:08 -0800
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
Message-ID: <39feb946a733f4d1444c0bd17d5735f8@melontraffickers.com>


mmotyka said:

> I wonder what's the budget to date for chasing down one apparently not
> so dangerous guy? They may be creating, at great expense ( is there
> another way for a government to create? ), what it is they want to find.
> If they push him over the edge, in 5 years or so they can have a real
> manhunt with bullets and everything. What's the saying? 'The race is not
> always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to
> bet.' Good for The Department ultimately.


    Well, what would you expect, really? Jeff Gordon and all the others
of his ilk are just a bunch of low-life, degenerate morons or they would
not be working at the jobs they do. There isn't anything of the slightest
redeeming value in *anything* they do -- their role in life is to create
as many victims as possible, destroy as many lives as possible, make as 
many decent people as miserable as possible, while they suck away at the
public tit, and generally burn up as many resources as possible.
    I was really disappointed that those 7 guys from Texas got caught
so easily -- it really would have been nice if they could have wasted
a politician or two or three, or at the very least greased a few more
cops. 




From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 26 07:52:12 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:52:12 -0500
Subject: DeCSS ruling in DVD case must be reversed, eight amicus briefs
  say
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010126105203.00a9d9a0@mail.well.com>


Eight different coalitions -- from cryptographers to journalist groups -- 
are filing amicus briefs in the DVD/DeCSS case. The briefs -- an unusually 
high number -- urge that the Second Circuit Court of Appeals overturn the 
district court's ruling of last August.

Wired News article on the briefs being filed today:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41441,00.html

The journalist/media brief, which focuses on the right to link:
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/linking-amicus.012601.html
The computer scientists' brief (the only one filed earlier in the week):
http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-bac.htm

Photos from trial, protests, anti-DMCA march:
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/dvd-2600-trial.html
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/2600.html
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/dmca-protest.html
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-5/tshirt-cssscramble.html

Other briefs include one by the ACLU, one by the ACM, one by law 
professors, and one by Ernest Miller, Siva Vaidhyanathan et al. that says 
"to be governed by the District Court's version of the DMCA is to be 
stripped of the right to make the valuable fair uses of copyrighted 
materials upon which new contributions to the field are so often based."

Judge Lewis Kaplan's ruling last August:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38287,00.html

EFF is funding 2600 magazine's defense and appeal. The appeal brief to the 
circuit court, filed last Friday, is here:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/MPAA_DVD_cases/20010119_ny_eff_appeal_pressrel.html
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/MPAA_DVD_cases/20010119_ny_eff_appeal_brief.html

Brief of MPAA member companies is due February 19. Their amici must file a 
week later.

Some of the briefs, including ones I've perused, are still in draft form. 
EFF promises to have all of them online shortly. ACLU says their brief -- 
still in draft form -- will be up on their site by noon.

-Declan




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jan 26 08:14:31 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:14:31 -0500
Subject: Grand Jury Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20010126161431.00b9aebc@pop.pipeline.com>


We offer two documents on federal grand juries,
Rule 6 of the Federal Rules for Criminal Procedure,
and the US Attorney Manual section on Grand Jury:

   http://cryptome.org/grand-jury.htm





From mean-green at hushmail.com  Fri Jan 26 11:36:46 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web war rages over DVD-cracking site
Message-ID: <200101261941.LAA17424@user5.hushmail.com>

[Wherein John Young finds a powerful commercial ally]

Web war rages over DVD-cracking site

By Lisa M. Bowman, ZDNet News

In a move that free-speech activists hope will be trendsetting, Internet 
service provider Verio is standing up to the movie industry by refusing 
to remove a Web site the Motion Picture Association of America says is illegal.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/zd/zd4.htm

From wfsel at coiinc.com  Fri Jan 26 09:50:25 2001
From: wfsel at coiinc.com (W.F. Sellers)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:50:25 -0600
Subject: Dixie Chavera
Message-ID: <3A71B8E1.2C1D0848@coiinc.com>


I am interested in earning some extra money and came across your ad for
stuffing envelopes. Can you give me some information on this.

Thank You
Dixie Chavera




From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 26 09:09:26 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:09:26 -0500
Subject: Microsoft DNS back up.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010124194446.00a8d130@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 07:45:11PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010124180823.00a90ad0@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20010124164723.01b4b9a0@idiom.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010124194446.00a8d130@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20010126120926.A1569@cluebot.com>


BTW in case y'all haven't seen this yet:

http://www.mccullagh.org/bin/msmon.html



On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 07:45:11PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Yep, it's back up for me too. I noticed it at 7:33 pm ET.
> 
> I'm on the phone with MS right now getting the, sigh, runaround.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> At 04:47 PM 1/24/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >Declan - Microsoft's DNS is back up; the article in
> >The Register  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16340.html
> >says their problems were due to DNS issues, not security
> >or denial of service attacks.
> >
> >Previous story about it being down
> >         http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16321.html
> >
> >There's much discussion on Slashdot,
> >         http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/24/1455247&mode=thread
> >but not much of it's useful :-)
> >
> >With Microsoft trying last year to push the term
> >"Digital Nervous System" to usurp the acronym DNS,
> >in spite of it being the third or fourth most important
> >aspect of the Internet (and one of the most controversial),
> >having a Digital Nervous Breakdown seems like poetic justice.
> >
> >
> >                                 Thanks!
> >                                         Bill
> >Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
> >PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
> 




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 26 03:10:30 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:10:30 +0100
Subject: anonymous internet - a right?
Message-ID: <3A715B26.BE4F6404@ricardo.de>


a good (german) article in telepolis today:

http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/te/4774/1.html

an interview with the green speaker for media-politics (the green party
is currently in a coalition with the social democratics, thus part of
the german government). highlights: anonymous internet usage is
considered very important, nobody should be forces to reveal any
personal data and electronic signatures should be available to
pseudonyms and have equal rank than those made with a real name.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan 26 04:17:39 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:17:39 +0000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3A716AE3.D868B076@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


dmolnar wrote:

> > Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution
> > L. Margulis, D. Sagan (yes that Sagan, which should id that Margulis :)
> > ISBN 0-387-94927-5
> 
> Onto the to-skim pile - thanks.

Margulis is always worth reading. "Symbiosis and the cell evolution" was
a huge eyeopener for me when I read it about 3 years ago - not so much
for the symbiotic origin of Eukaryotes (which is pretty much orthodoxy
these days & was taught to me as the standard idea back in the 1970s) as
for all the biogeochemical implications. "Five Kingdoms" is a fun
overview of LAWKI - a good read.

> It wasn't that long ago that Sherry Turkle's _Life on the Screen_ was
> supposed to be *the* account of how "we" were going to relate in
> cyberspace. Except that who uses MUDs anymore? 

My daughter sometimes! She's 11 now - but bumped into them a year or so
ago. A few days after that I found her installing a telnet server on our
W98 machine...

 
> Can you imagine a latter-day Gandhi who exhorts people to move back to the
> cities to live with each other again? No? Why?

I can easily imagine that - somewhere between Jane Jacobs and Paolo
Soleri and Bill Mollison.
 
> Yes? Why arcologies and not Gandhi?

Why not both? See  "Life and Death of the Great American Cities",
"Arcologies" and "Permaculture" by the authors mentioned above (Of
course nearly all contributors to Cypherpunks would find Soleri &
Mollison to be evil wimpish leftites - but they ought to like Jacobs).
 
> An alternative may be that the generation gap asserts itself with a
> vengeance. Dad and Jr. can't get along - what about Dad and the 17th?
> Instead of isolating vertically, societies isolate horizontally. Lots of
> parallel institutions with mandatory minimum and mandatory retirement
> ages.

Remember, if we manage to get ourselves an indefinite lifespan (as
opposed to a mildly stretched one) then old people won't be *old* any
more.

> Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
> perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
> the society born before them.

That more or less happens these days - there is a sort of lost
generation born between the late 1950s & about 1970 who  managed to be
the first age cohort in 200 years who were poorer than their parents, at
least in Britain (where else did punk rock come from?)

Ken




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan 26 04:47:27 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:47:27 +0000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101211020040.9860-100000@hcs.harvard.edu> <3.0.5.32.20010122141829.01b73ca0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3A7171DF.41D5F456@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Bill Stewart wrote:

[...] 

> Neil Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is of course recommended,
> and classics like Vinge's "True Names" and "A Fire Upon The Deep".
> and Stephenson's "Snow Crash".  Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game"
> has some nice treatment of reputation systems and pseudonymity -
> unfortunately it's *much* harder to get the tech correct than it is
> to write about what if feels like to use well-designed systems :-)
> Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" and Sterling's "Islands in the Net"
> hit some of the appropriate space.
> "Trouble and Her Friends" has some good treatment of cryptographically
> protected subcultures, though that's more as redeeming-social-value
> for a book that's written for genre.
> "Idoru" by Gibson does some of the same.
 
[...] 

Brunner seconded, and a bid for Ken MacLeod. "Stone Canal" is probably
the one most cypherpunks would like the most - set in a well-described
crypto-anarchic polity where "information wants to be free" and is
willing to fight for it.  CPs ought to love the trial scene.  In an
anarchy you start by agreeing on what law you will be judged by and who
is to be the judge.

Reading them in order is best - "Star Fraction" is basically
old-fashioned 1980s-style cyberpunk (but he knows his stuff & is serious
about AI & cryptography, then "Stone Canal", "The Cassini Division" (my
favourite), then "Sky Road".

Some of the best sf of the last 5 years.

Ken (not him - the other one)




From bf at farc.org  Fri Jan 26 09:50:09 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:50:09 -0500
Subject: numbers stations 
Message-ID: <3A71B897.5AE47F8D@farc.org>



I thought some of you might be interested in this. "The Conet
Project" is a 4 CD collection of recordings of the so-called "numbers
stations" which are purported to be one way short wave communications
from intelligence agencies to their people in the field. The
recordings (just re-released) are really quite amazing. Intelligence
communication as art? Who knew? More information can be found here:

http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~irdial/conet.htm

And a review, here:

http://www.salon.com/people/feature/1999/09/16/numbers/index.html







From bf at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 26 10:17:43 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:17:43 -0500
Subject: hardware store surv. cam. nabs ELF
Message-ID: <3A71BE9E.492B1B85@mindspring.com>


Jan 26, 2001 - 10:07 AM

            Man Accused of Spiking Trees
            for Radical Environmental
            Group
            The Associated Press

            BLOOMINGTON, Ind. (AP) - An alleged member of a
            radical environmental group connected to a series of
            arsons and other crimes has been arrested for
            putting spikes in trees to destroy logging equipment.

            Frank B. Ambrose, 26, is accused of driving 10-inch
            spikes into trees last June in an area of the
            Morgan-Monroe State Forest slated for logging.

            Authorities believe Ambrose is affiliated with the
            Earth Liberation Front, a loosely knit group that
            claimed responsibility for spiking the trees.

            The ELF has claimed responsibility for 22 major
            crimes, including arson attacks and other acts of
            sabotage across the country. The FBI has attributed
            $37 million in damage since 1996 to the group.

            In a statement released Thursday, Ambrose denied
            spiking the trees. After his arrest, he refused to
            answer questions, including whether he's affiliated
            with the ELF.

            Ambrose told The Herald-Times of Bloomington he
            was targeted by authorities for publicly refusing to
            condemn destroying property to prevent harm to the
            environment.

            "Is it illegal to say that? It may not be popular with
            some people, but it doesn't mean I was involved in it,"
            he said.

            A six-month investigation by state conservation
            officers and the FBI traced the spiking nails to
            Ambrose through store surveillance tapes. According
            to an affidavit, Abrose's car was spotted outside the
            forest at the time of the incident, and police found
            hammering and metal-cutting tools and cotton gloves
            with a residue similar to that from the spikes in
            Ambrose's apartment.

            Ambrose is the Midwest coordinator for the
            American Lands Alliance, a mainstream
            environmental group headed by former Indiana
            congressman Jim Jontz.

            "American Lands doesn't support tree spiking," Jontz
            said from his Portland, Ore., office. "Of course, I
            hope that these allegations aren't true."

            Ambrose was released on $2,000 bond and is
            scheduled to appear in court Feb. 2. Tree spiking is
            a felony in Indiana punishable with up to three years
            in prison and a $10,000 fine.

            Leslie Pickering, a spokesman for the North
            American Earth Liberation Front, said he is not sure
            if Ambrose is a member of the ELF.

            Conservation officer Marlin Dodge said it is hard to
            prove involvement in the group.

            "There's no way you'll ever prove who an ELF is," he
            said. "However, we're prepared to show that he did a
            criminal act that ELF took responsibility for."





From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 26 15:20:42 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:20:42 -1000
Subject: search engine attack on GWB
In-Reply-To: <3A71C4EA.B1702F73@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010126131912.00e1f6a0@flex.com>


Formatting fixed

At 01:44 PM 1/26/01 -0500, Blank Frank wrote:
 >If you type "dumb motherfucker" (unquoted) in Google, the first hit is
 >http://www.georgewbushstore.com/
 >
 >which is not a parody site and includes this:
 >
 > (Note: If you have arrived at this site through
 > inappropriate references via a search engine, please
 > be assured that we did not utilize this language in our
 > site, our HTML,  nor in our internet promotion of
 > this site. What happened was the result of a malicious
 > act and we are pursuing remedies through the efforts
 > of our staff and attorneys.)
 >
 >Anyone have any idea how that was done?

<paste>

<http://www.hugedisk.com/story.asp?ar_id=57>

                      You ain't huge. You ain't nothin'!

          ) 2000 HugeDisk Enterprises. All rights reserved.

HugeDisk Helps Confirm G.W. Bush's Reputation

     The on-line reputation of a celebrity -- from a television star to a
     high-stakes politician -- can have a dramatic effect on that person's
     career. Hate and worship sites, a slanted news media, or on-line
     chat-style commentary can all have either a positive or negative
     influence. Because an on-line reputation is something that's created
     through the mass consciousness of the Internet, it can often be
     difficult to judge exactly what a celebrity's on-line reputation may
     be. Every once in a while, however, something magical happens that
     makes it possible for a reputation to be validated through the simple
     click of a button.

                         Press Generated By This Story

                              Wired Magazine[1]
                            The Register (UK)[2]

       [1] http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,41401,00.html
       [2] http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16334.html

     We at HugeDisk Men's Magazine are proud to report that, although
     entirely unwittingly, we have done our part to cement Texas Governor
     George W. Bush's on-line reputation as that of a "dumb motherfucker".

     How did we contribute to so dubious an achievement? It was easy! On
     the first installment of our Ask Hester HugeDisk column we innocently
     ran a link from the words "dumb motherfucker" to George W. Bush's
     on-line campaign store. The search engines noticed that we, along with
     a few other websites, endorsed George as a "dumb motherfucker" and
     adjusted George's search engine rankings accordingly.

     Follow the directions below to see proof that George W. Bush is the
     Internet's premier dumb motherfucker.

      1. Click here[3] to open the Yahoo! search engine in a separate window.

      2. Type the words "dumb motherfucker" into Yahoo!'s search term box.

      3. Click Search, or press Enter.

       [3] http://www.yahoo.com/

     Who owns the first site listed there? The Internet's most popular dumb
     motherfucker, that's who. Thank you America!

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo at bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at bbs.thing.net




From bf at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 26 10:44:18 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:44:18 -0500
Subject: search engine attack on GWB
Message-ID: <3A71C4EA.B1702F73@mindspring.com>


If you type "dumb motherfucker" (unquoted) in Google, the first hit is
http://www.georgewbushstore.com/

which is not a parody site and includes this:

                                    (Note: If you have arrived at this
site through
                                    inappropriate references via a
search engine, please
                                    be assured that we did not utilize
this language in our
                                    site, our HTML,  nor in our internet
promotion of
                                    this site. What happened was the
result of a malicious
                                    act and we are pursuing remedies
through the efforts
                                    of our staff and attorneys.)

Anyone have any idea how that was done?







From sendxmewfiven900r at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 26 12:28:27 2001
From: sendxmewfiven900r at yahoo.com (DanjoKon)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:28:27 -0600
Subject: ADV: As Seen on TV - YOU DESERVE MORE INCOME NOW!
Message-ID: <200101262029.MAA03173@cyberpass.net>


_______________________________________________________________________

YOU DESERVE MORE INCOME NOW AND YOU HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE IT USING YOUR 
COMPUTER AT HOME!!!

You can earn $46,000 or more in the next 90 days sending e-mail. Seem 
impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")...

_______________________________________________________________________

"AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V."

Thank you for your time and Interest.

This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately.

Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news 
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program 
described below, to see if it really can make people money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their 
findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no Laws 
prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to Show 
people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money 
at home.

The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are 
participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. 
Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting 
to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it.

"HERE IT IS BELOW"
_________________________________________________________________

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a 
look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income 
return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 90 days!

Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require 
you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, 
you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe 
that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS 
IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true.

This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100% 
EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this 
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the 
more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this 
action!!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being 
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the 
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and 
services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 
1990's.

This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 Millionaires 
in the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years 
in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires 
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A 
MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an 
appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if 
he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, 
Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. 
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and 
dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all 
sitting out there!"

With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct Commissions 
from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you 
introduce to the business.

Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or 
money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network 
marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others.

This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different 
countries across the world.

The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through my fingers. 
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and 
study to it.

My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for 
the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.

After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over 
the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my 
family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll 
on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to 
refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling 
business.

AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing 
to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER 
FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to 
receiving this program I had been sending away for INF0RMATION on various 
business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were 
not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or 
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would 
work or not.

One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't 
tell me I'd have to write a book to make it!

But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I 
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing 
list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make 
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a 
MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, 
without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and 
figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I 
was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects 
of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 
24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time 
on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for 
printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are 
fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it 
is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not 
"rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By 
January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to 
"RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"

My first step in making $46,000 in 90 days was done.

By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to 
"RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND 
OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, 
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $46,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT 
#2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed.

By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $58,000 with more coming 
in every day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.

Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!!!

Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but 
you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place 
your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of 
money!

In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders. 
For REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $46,000 or 
more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is 
a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial 
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, 
or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. 

I DID!

Sincerely,
Johnathon Rourke


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have 
concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been 
created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same 
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.

Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and 
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.

I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate... because 
many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and 
bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing 
invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never 
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the 
poor.

As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The 
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or 
"get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for 
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already 
made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending 
out over 1,600,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make this and 
several other programs here and over seas.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It 
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this 
exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send 
this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of 
them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers 
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials And 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a 
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure 
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of 
money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have 
will vanish when your first orders come in. 

IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA.

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$

INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that 
you could use up to $46,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say 
"BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, 
but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you 
do:

As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new 
partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature of the 
internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business partners 
from all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR 
ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in 
personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. 
This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere.

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 5 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you 
don't order them).

a. For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU 
ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case 
of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the 
report.

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL 
PROBLEMS!

b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five reports. 
You will need all five reports so that you can save them on your computer 
and resell them.

c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the five 
reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to 
send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to 
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is 
instructed below in steps "a" through "g" or you will lose out on the 
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll 
also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has 
been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work.

a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've ordered the five reports, take this advertisement and 
REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #5. This person has made it 
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $46,000! Also, change the 
name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE e-mail address on the top 
of this document to your own.

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #4 down to REPORT #5.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

f. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

g. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save 
it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this 
letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can 
afford $25). You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail 
is FREE!

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 Reports 
you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 
INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find 
thousands of Free classified ads and much, much more.

In addition you will be provided with INFORMATION on Internet Marketing 
Clubs such as INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES(IMR): This is one the Premiere 
internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET. This club provides a forum where 
internet marketers from all over the world can exchange ideas and secrets 
on Internet Marketing. In addition, members of this club are provided free 
internet marketing tools and services for the 
Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketeer.

They will provide you with free bulk e-mail software and up to 1,000,000 
fresh e-mail addresses each week. This club will provide you with hundreds 
of free resources which include: How to obtain free web sites, how to 
obtain top rankings in search engines for your web-site, how to send bulk 
e-mail into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on news groups, 
free classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads and much 
more.

There are two primary methods of building your downline:

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and 
we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each.

Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.3% response.

Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will 
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing 
with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.3% response, 
that is only 6 orders for REPORT #1. Those 6 people respond by sending out 
2,000 programs each for a total of 12,000. Out of those 0.3%, 36 people 
respond and order REPORT #2. Those 36 mail out 2,000 programs each for a 
total of 72,000. The 0.3% response to that is 216 orders for REPORT #3. 
Those 216 send out 2,000 programs each for a 432,000 total. The 
0.3%response to that is 1,296 orders for REPORT #4. Those 1,296 send out 
2,000 programs each for a 2,592,000 total. The 0.3% response to that is 
7,776 orders for REPORT #5.

That's 7,776 $5 bills for you, CASH!!! Your total income in this example is 
$30 + $180 + $1,080+ $6,480 + $38,880 for a total of $46,650!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO 
WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A 
MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS 
INSTEAD OF 2,000.

Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost 
to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have 
an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!

REPORT #2 and #5 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing, tell you 
where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists 
and show you how to send out 1,000,000 e-mails for free.

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are 
HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small 
just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 6 people to 
participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet 
will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR 
ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 6 downline members. Follow this example to achieve 
the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 6 members with $5 ($5 x 6)........................$30
2nd level--6 members from those 6 ($5 x 36)....................$180
3rd level--6 members from those 36 ($5 x 216)............ $1,080
4th level--6 members from those 216 ($5 x 1,296)....... $6,480
5th level--6 members from those 1,296 ($5 x 7,776)... $38,880
................................................$46,650
_________________________________________________________________

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 
6 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people 
to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants!

THINK ABOUT IT!
For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they 
ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!

This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they 
receive the report!
_________________________________________________________________

AVAILABLE REPORTS

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***

Notes:

ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED 
ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed 
by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of 
paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) 
your e-mail address, and (c)your name & postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:

REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Dan Konrady
253 Parkside Lane
Lincoln, NE 68521


REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Marcia Souza
Los Cipreses 017
Rocas de Santo Domingo
Chile


REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Peter Wadsworth
Casilla 31
San Antonio - Chile


REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel 
Marketing and the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Gary Goldman
6476 Bellevue Drive
Conyers, GA 30094


REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE"

ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:
Richard R. Civil
1800 Laurel Road Apt#1603
Lindenwold, NJ 08021


There currently more than 175,000,000 people online worldwide!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the 
directions accurately.

* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the 
orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report.

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later 
you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, 
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will Continue 
to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of 
a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which 
report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, 
send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole 
process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this 
business!

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this 
program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE?

If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this 
program:

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE!

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP!

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE!

4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL 
MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD!

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan 26 06:53:57 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:53:57 +0000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010126072006.28928L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A718F85.EE0BD566@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Right of course about Nina Hagen et al. Though the argument about an age
cohort still works (& in fact could be extended to include the German
industrial rock bands & their artier (& much funnier) US followers from
Akron (*) 

But then I could argue that a lot of British punk rock from 1976/7
actually sounded very, very different from the continental & North
American precursors. A lot less sophisticated, less art-school (although
a lot of the practitioners were at art schools!), less pills & more
beer, and they actually used English accents and working-class
south-of-England accents at that. In fact that summed up a lot of the
impact of the Clash, the Damned, the Sex Pistols & all the hundreds of
less-well-remembered bands - they sounded working-class, which in those
days just Wasn't Done if you came from within a hundred miles of London.

And I could also argue that the musical roots of that kind of British
"punk" didn't include those guys so much as the noisy, thrashy, stomping
heavy bands of the early 1970s (people like Sweet & Slade who never got
to the US I guess), Reggae (especially in its early Ska mode),  football
chants, oddities like Screaming Lord Sutch (his "L-O-N-D-O-N London!"
from the late 60s isn't punk but it sounds like punk) and of course
Hawkwind (honestly, just listen to the basslines). If there is a
transatlantic component other than R&B (which is always there of course)
back in the mid-1970s it was more likely to be Patti Smith or their
older brother's Velvet's records.

And of course you could quite truthfully remind me that a significant
number of those famous punks were in fact middle-class
university-educated fine-arts types who did just as many of the wrong
sort of pills as their windy stadium rock predecessors (talking of
which, how come you Americans still pay money to listen to that stuff ?
:-)

Ken Brown


(*) and for that matter some of the kind of people who listened to Bruce
Springsteen in his more depressing moments... before the Republican's
irony module was unplugged & they started to think "Born in the USA" was
some sort of anthem. Or the kind of people who listened to various noisy
southern rock bands.



Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
> 
> > > Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
> > > perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
> > > the society born before them.
> >
> > That more or less happens these days - there is a sort of lost
> > generation born between the late 1950s & about 1970 who  managed to be
> > the first age cohort in 200 years who were poorer than their parents, at
> > least in Britain (where else did punk rock come from?)
> 
> Actually punk rock came from Germany, look up Klaus Nomi and Nina Hagen,
> and Canada, P. Orridge and Throbbing Gristle. Klaus is also the first
> 'famous' person to die from AIDS. Then it moved to NY & Cali. (The Germs
> fuckin' rule!). It didn't get to Britian until it had already been
> established a couple of years.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 26 13:26:53 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:26:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <3A718F85.EE0BD566@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010126150152.28928S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> But then I could argue that a lot of British punk rock from 1976/7
> actually sounded very, very different from the continental & North
> American precursors. A lot less sophisticated, less art-school (although
> a lot of the practitioners were at art schools!), less pills & more
> beer,

And Heroin. Yes, British music in general has a different 'timbre' to it.

> impact of the Clash

Come on baby tell me, should I stay or should I go?

> the Damned,

Yawn.

> the Sex Pistols

Anarchy in the UK!, if don't mind the puke in the pocket...

> days just Wasn't Done if you came from within a hundred miles of London.

You should listen to Social D's last live album. There's a comment in
there about the Whiskey's parking lot and pussie piercings that's
hilarious. Describes my experience in S. Texas in Houston to a T.

> from the late 60s isn't punk but it sounds like punk) and of course
> Hawkwind (honestly, just listen to the basslines). If there is a

So, you're the one who stole my Orgone Accumulator? You know they started
out as a front band for a sci-fi writer?

> which, how come you Americans still pay money to listen to that stuff ?

I don't listen to the old stuff as much as the new stuff, Mindless Self
Indulgence, DRI, CoC, Butthole Surfers (from here in Austin!), The
Exploited (speaking of England), The Union Underground (though this is
very industrial), or Mephisto Odyssey (ditto), Surf Punks, Sex Gang
Children, Fugazi, Newlydeads, Napalm Death, The Cramps, Bush Tetra's, or
GWAR for example. I also like Cirith Ungol but they're more head-banging.
Though I still do have all those albums and break 'em out at parties. I
find a lot of the under 25's have never heard this stuff (though they've
heard of it).

My fucking favorite punk band bar none is, Plastmatics. Wendy O. takes no 
prisoners (and clearly won't become one). May 'Rauls' rest in peace'.

Americans are pack-rat's.

As to The Boss and southern rock bands of any sort, I'll keep my peace. :)

Tres Hombres.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 26 13:42:11 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:42:11 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The ASCII Cam - A good source of RNG for crypto?
Message-ID: <3A71EF33.E9F11E78@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/26/1617217.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 26 13:46:45 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:46:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: numbers stations 
In-Reply-To: <3A71B897.5AE47F8D@farc.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010126154530.28928W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



When distributed file/process space becomes the norm there will be a
variety of applications for numbers stations and nonce servers.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bela400 at lycos.com  Fri Jan 26 18:23:19 2001
From: bela400 at lycos.com (bela nagy)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:23:19 -0800
Subject: web design, desktop publishing
Message-ID: <20010126232312.FVPU10080.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@excite.com>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan 26 21:03:48 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:03:48 -0800
Subject: search engine attack on GWB
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010126131912.00e1f6a0@flex.com>
References: <3A71C4EA.B1702F73@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010126210348.01ad1100@idiom.com>


At 01:20 PM 1/26/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
>Formatting fixed
>
>At 01:44 PM 1/26/01 -0500, Blank Frank wrote:
> >If you type "dumb motherfucker" (unquoted) in Google, the first hit is
> >http://www.georgewbushstore.com/
> >
> >which is not a parody site and includes this:
> >
> > (Note: If you have arrived at this site through
> > inappropriate references via a search engine, please
> > be assured that we did not utilize this language in our
> > site, our HTML,  nor in our internet promotion of
> > this site. What happened was the result of a malicious
> > act and we are pursuing remedies through the efforts
> > of our staff and attorneys.)
> >
> >Anyone have any idea how that was done?

I'll leave discussion of whether the term is actually
inappropriate for GWB to those who are better informed ;-)

Google's search engines do weight their responses based on
how many web pages link to a given page - there's probably
some minor trick involved in getting the keywords into a 
page that doesn't use it (or at least perceived by Google to be.)

But it's not that hard to develop an HTTP server that will
serve up large numbers of "different" web pages that all reference
the page you're trying to push - the server can go pretty fast
when it doesn't need to read an actual file or search directories, 
just output a bunch of cached strings in some slightly random order that
keeps google happy.   Depending on google's search algorithms,
there may be optimal mixtures of different domain names,
IP addresses, and file names to encourage google's spiders to
come back as fast as possible, and it's highly probable that
somebody's been experimenting with that precisely to
promote their commercial site.  It helps to have high bandwidth,
and it may help to piggyback on an existing web server just to
include pointers to the fake-site-pool to increase the number of
real links coming in from the outside world.

Is google already trying to track hacks like this?  Probably :-)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




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From: fred at hiendmedia.com (fred at hiendmedia.com)
Date: 26 Jan 2001 22:27:03 -0000
Subject: content
Message-ID: <20010126222703.87723.qmail@mail.way2fast.com>


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From George at Orwellian.Org  Fri Jan 26 21:55:00 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:55:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Web war rages over DVD-cracking site
Message-ID: <200101270555.AAA10433@www1.aa.psiweb.com>


Congrats to John on his current luck.

Well, not the visit to WAy out there.

----

Declan, nice photos.

Now check these out:

    http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0104/conaway.shtml

Heh-heh-heh.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jan 27 04:39:50 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:39:50 -0500
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
Message-ID: <200101271249.HAA20426@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


During the grand jury questioning I was asked about only
one person besides Jim Bell and the CIA-fictional "Mueller" 
and this was someone whose name I did not know. The
name could have been as fictional as the other two.

Do not send me private email or snail mail or telephone 
or visit. Consider me a target for indictment, hanging in
the wind, a warning to others, a Kafka character, PR
for L&O.

Do not bite "John Young" bait.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 27 06:07:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 08:07:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <200101271249.HAA20426@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010127080718.28928c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



How the wind changes...

On Sat, 27 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:

> Do not send me private email or snail mail or telephone 

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan 27 11:15:53 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:15:53 -1000
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <200101271249.HAA20426@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010127091337.00d73250@flex.com>


Bummer.  I wonder if last-minute updates for cryptome might be offered,
for the legal defense fund?

Reese

At 07:39 AM 1/27/01 -0500, John Young wrote:
 >During the grand jury questioning I was asked about only
 >one person besides Jim Bell and the CIA-fictional "Mueller"
 >and this was someone whose name I did not know. The
 >name could have been as fictional as the other two.
 >
 >Do not send me private email or snail mail or telephone
 >or visit. Consider me a target for indictment, hanging in
 >the wind, a warning to others, a Kafka character, PR
 >for L&O.
 >
 >Do not bite "John Young" bait.




From bear at sonic.net  Sat Jan 27 09:27:17 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:27:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <200101271533.KAA20079@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101270910590.7797-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 27 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:

>Choate wrote:
>
>>How the wind changes...
>
>The point, hardhead, is to keep communications public.
>Private stuff can be leveraged into a subpoena. Not 
>your own private stuff, somebody else's. Like your CDR
>rat.

It's flatly weird to me to see which people are getting 
dragged into this and which ones aren't and which ones 
aren't *yet*. Something in the back of my brain is going, 
There's a Pattern Here.  And I even think the pattern is 
based on public communications. And I think the pattern 
applies in such a way that there are people it requires 
to get dragged into this, that haven't gotten dragged into 
it yet.  But I can't quite put my finger on what the pattern 
is.  So I've been digging through the cypherpunks archives 
trying to figure it out.  

Nothing yet.  Just a feeling.  And it could be purely 
subjective at that. It's a weird feeling, like trying to 
solve a really short vignere cryptogram; not really enough 
information to use anything but intuition, but something is 
there, right beneath the surface, that shows a pattern if 
you can only figure out what the pattern is. 

				Bear














From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan 27 07:55:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:55:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <200101271533.KAA20079@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010127095050.28928i-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sat, 27 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:

> Choate wrote:
> 
> >How the wind changes...
> 
> The point, hardhead, is to keep communications public.
> Private stuff can be leveraged into a subpoena. Not 
> your own private stuff, somebody else's. Like your CDR
> rat.

The point of keeping communications public was mine long before you jumped
on the bandwagon John. Until now you've always held the position it was
'paranoid'.

'your own private stuff' is just as open to subpoena. Simple private
contact could potentially be enough to incriminate, and that doesn't have
to be from your initiation either.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jan 27 07:25:08 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:25:08 -0500
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010127080718.28928c-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
References: <200101271249.HAA20426@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101271533.KAA20079@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Choate wrote:

>How the wind changes...

The point, hardhead, is to keep communications public.
Private stuff can be leveraged into a subpoena. Not 
your own private stuff, somebody else's. Like your CDR
rat.

I handed my subpoenaed material (public messages to 
cpunks and the HTML subpoena on Cryptome) to the grand
jury foreman after being told by London that it was an
informal procedure to give subpoenaed material to him
or Capt. Jeff Gordon, the "case's lead investigator." Robb
didn't know what was in the package during his 
questioning, nor did the grand jury.

I referred to the material several times to buttress my
testimony, and only near the end did Robb say, "are
you saying you only provided public information?" 
That's right, I answered. 

And I told him and Jeff beforehand I wanted to publish
my testimony, and told the jury I intended to report on the
process: To help the public understand how government
works, especially the secret part.

One juror said, you're not going to publish our names
are you? Robb hastened to testify, no way.

Anyway, this could be a pack of lies, and more filthy
secrets about how government works, and how you get
snared by artful bargains for personal protection and 
national security, on the jury and off, by folks who
preach that faith.

Which comes back to the CDR forehead mark. And
how you get pariahed by contact with the feds no matter 
what you do obey their commands or to wash away the 
dirt. They're addicted to that secret sadistic pleasure,
and aim to addict juries.




From achamblin at wickedspeed.net  Sat Jan 27 07:48:01 2001
From: achamblin at wickedspeed.net (achamblin at wickedspeed.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:48:01 -0500
Subject: New Internet Casino page. $10 free on signup!!!!!
Message-ID: <1dmp6m23m1n.lc8gwx83m10@mx08.wickedspeed.net>

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From: cruise_center at yahoo.com (TAMI LYNN)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:52:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cruise Request
Message-ID: <20010127185242.26313.qmail@web4603.mail.yahoo.com>



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From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan 27 13:32:50 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:32:50 -1000
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <200101271747.MAA30590@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101270910590.7797-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <200101271533.KAA20079@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010127112152.00d8edf0@flex.com>


At 12:39 PM 1/27/01 -0500, John Young wrote:
 >Bear wrote:

 >>There's a Pattern Here.  And I even think the pattern is
 >>based on public communications.

I've been pondering that.  I wonder if Jeff's significant other might be 
willing to provide some critical dimensions, and if those dimensions
might be a, err, a public key of sorts, for decrypting the pattern,,,

 >One point: Robb London kept referring to posts to cypherpunks
 >as if they were between individuals, say me and Jim Bell.
 >I had to point out that the messages were to the cypherpunks
 >list not between individuals. And that I had not sent mail to
 >Jim directly and that Jim's messages were not to me but to
 >a public list. That distinction may not have been absorbed
 >by the jury, especically if they had already been briefed
 >about mail between Jim and me, despite there having been
 >none.
 >
 >This confusion is caused by the way return messages are
 >addressed. In my Eurora mailer, if you just hit return to a
 >cpunk message, the writer's address pops up, or it does
 >in my configuration. To avoid that I have to manually add
 >the cpunk address.

That's why I use Reply-All, to see who is in the To: and Cc: fields, and 
remove stuff I don't want there.

 >Moreover, responders often send two or more messages,
 >to the writer, to cpunks, and, in some cases, to previous
 >responders. I try to avoid that by sending only to the list.
 >
 >The thing is, an outsider who sees the messages, say in
 >the archives or as a subscriber, may interpret what you
 >think is public mail as private, especially when the To:
 >is to an individual not the list.

Anyone who thinks this is a private email just because I left John's addy
in the To: line needs to learn more about mailing lists, and how easy it
is to manipulate and forge electronic documents.

John, be sure to note this email, and if any part of it is used as evidence,
be sure it is complete.

 >Moreover, responders often send two or more messages,
 >to the writer, to cpunks, and, in some cases, to previous
 >responders. I try to avoid that by sending only to the list.
 >
 >The thing is, an outsider who sees the messages, say in
 >the archives or as a subscriber, may interpret what you
 >think is public mail as private, especially when the To:
 >is to an individual not the list.

If incomplete data is presented, yeah, that would be an easy conclusion.
Hence this post, to call attention to such things.

Reese




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jan 27 09:39:17 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:39:17 -0500
Subject: Bell Grand Jury
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101270910590.7797-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <200101271533.KAA20079@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101271747.MAA30590@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Bear wrote:

>There's a Pattern Here.  And I even think the pattern is 
>based on public communications.

One point: Robb London kept referring to posts to cypherpunks
as if they were between individuals, say me and Jim Bell.
I had to point out that the messages were to the cypherpunks
list not between individuals. And that I had not sent mail to
Jim directly and that Jim's messages were not to me but to
a public list. That distinction may not have been absorbed
by the jury, especically if they had already been briefed
about mail between Jim and me, despite there having been
none.

This confusion is caused by the way return messages are
addressed. In my Eurora mailer, if you just hit return to a 
cpunk message, the writer's address pops up, or it does 
in my configuration. To avoid that I have to manually add 
the cpunk address.

Moreover, responders often send two or more messages,
to the writer, to cpunks, and, in some cases, to previous
responders. I try to avoid that by sending only to the list.

The thing is, an outsider who sees the messages, say in
the archives or as a subscriber, may interpret what you
think is public mail as private, especially when the To:
is to an individual not the list.







From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Sat Jan 27 13:29:32 2001
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:29:32 -0800
Subject: Whois Database Hacked for Microsoft.com
Message-ID: <3A72CD5F.12316.106738F6@localhost>


It would appear this is not a good week for Microsoft.  It appears 
the Network Solutions whois database has been hacked.  This is 
what I get when I do a fwhois on a Linux system. 

whois.crsnic.net]

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

MICROSOFT.COM.WILL.LIVE.FOREVER.BUT.LUNIX.SUCKS-BYBIRTH.ARTISTICCHEESE.COM

MICROSOFT.COM.WAS.HACKED.TODAY.BY.JAMESSMALL.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.TOLD.ME.TO.KILL.UR.PC.LIVE-EVIL.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.SHOULD.GIVE.UP.BECAUSE.LINUXISGOD.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.SE.FAIT.HAX0RIZER.PAR.TOUT.LE.ZOY.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.OWNED.BY.MAT.HACKSWARE.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.N-AIME.BILL.QUE.QUAND.IL.N-EST.PAS.NU
MICROSOFT.COM.MUST.STOP.TAKEDRUGS.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.ISNT.THIS.SILLY.AND.DONT.YOU.WANT.YOUR.OWN.808.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.SOON.GOING.TO.THE.DEATHCORPORATION.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.SO.VERY.SKANKY.NET
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.SECRETLY.RUN.BY.ILLUMINATI.TERRORISTS.NET
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.NOTHING.BUT.A.MONSTER.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.NO.MATCH.FOR.THE.WANNABE.TERRORISTS.AT.JIMPHILLIPS.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.GOD.BUT.LINUX.SUCKS-FOREVER.ARTISTICCHEESE.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.BORING.COMPARED.TO.TEENEXTREME.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.IS.AT.THE.MERCY.OF.DETRIMENT.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.INSPIRES.COPYCAT.WANNABE.SUBVERSIVES.NET
MICROSOFT.COM.HAS.NO.LINUXCLUE.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.HACKED.BY.PSYKOJOKO.ON.A.ROOT-NETWORK.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.HACKED.BY.HACKSWARE.COM
MICROSOFT.COM.GUTS.NL
MICROSOFT.COM.FAIT.VRAIMENT.DES.LOGICIELS.A.TROIS.FRANCS.DOUZE.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM.ER.IKKE.NO.I.FORHOLD.TIL.LATHANS.NET
MICROSOFT.COM.AINT.WORTH.SHIT.KLUGE.ORG
MICROSOFT.COM

To single out one record, look it up with "xxx", where xxx is one of the

of the records displayed above. If the records are the same, look them
up with "=xxx" to receive a full display for each record.

>>> Last update of whois database: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:06:00 EST <<<

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
Registrars.






Virtually


Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca
"The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" 
http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html




From money2000 at charter.net  Sat Jan 27 11:45:59 2001
From: money2000 at charter.net (B Swanson)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:45:59 -0600
Subject: WOULD YOU LIKE TO WORK FROM HOME?
Message-ID: <auto-000038578533@front002.cluster1.charter.net>






Hello-



I am an e-bay seller making $75,000+ per year, but I want to show 
you what I
took a skeptical chance on, which I have come to realize has made 
our family
at least
an ADDITIONAL $252,000 THIS YEAR to date! This is a project and 
business
that takes dedication, however it has ultilized only a fraction 
of the time
that my regular
selling does, without the costly fees that Ebay charges.



There are countless different concepts of multi-level marketing, 
but sound
marketing strategies are the key to secure financial success. In 
the summer
of 1999 Donald  Trump (A Multi-Millionaire touted by Forbes 
Magazine as one
of the wealthiest men in the country) made an appearance on the 
David
Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if  he lost 
everything and
had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating,  Trump said 
he would
find a good network marketing company and get to work.  The 
audience started
to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and  
dead-panned his
response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting 
out there!"



In this program I send out emails just like this one, as many as 
I can, and
people send me cash in the mail for marketing information that I 
email back
to them upon receipt of funds. Being a service, it is all 
completely legal,
and I get to make that walk to the mailbox every day knowing that 
it is full
of $5 bills for me!!



Do the math... If you send out 100,000 emails (which you can do 
for free,
the reports will show you how) and only 1 in 1000 people 
participates, you
just made $500...and that was only on the first level!!!



At the fifth level, you have a realistic chance to be at over 
$500,000! And
that is ONLY ONE person participating out of 1000 at each level!



Report #2 will even show you where you can get One MILLION e-Bay 
email
addresses and all of the software you will need to send emails to 
them, and
HOW!!



This is not just a mail about marketing, and obtaining 
information, however.


Realize FAST how much money there is to be made, and how EASY it 
is to do
over and over... Then act. Make this the one email like this you 
decide to
act on.



Do you HONESTLY think you wont see your meager, one-time $25 
returned to you
a hundredfold AT LEAST?? PLUS, look at the value of the 
informational
reports you are getting for your money, and understand that you 
will be able
to sell them over and over forever, even AFTER you have used them 
for your
own monetary gain!!!



And then you can run the whole program over and over for free!! 
If you
have been looking for a little fun in your life, wait till you 
try THIS
fun...the kind that puts cash in your mailbox!!



Good Luck!!!



Matt Farruggio



                
==================================================



DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES:



 AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV :  (Reportedly on 48 Hours, in a 1999 
feature
report.)



''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your 
home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time''



THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !



                 
==================================================



BECOMING A MILLIONAIRE WITHIN A YEAR!!!



Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the 
letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity 
of this
letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program, reportedly "48 
hours",
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this 
program
described below, to see if it really can make people money.  The 
show also
investigated whether or not the program was legal.



Their findings proved once and for all that there are 
''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can 
-follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with 
only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & 
RESPECT
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN 
EVER.



Here is what Pam Hedland, from Fort Lee, New Jersey had to say: 
'' Thanks to
this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before 
but each
time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally  joined just to see 
what one
could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. 
To my
astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still
coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.




===============================================================



Here is another testimonial: ''' This program has been around for 
a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this 
again in
the
mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 
instructions
and
voila' ... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First 
month I only
made $240.00  but the next 2 months after that I made a total of
$290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the 
program, I have
made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to 
success in this
program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' 
More
testimonials later but first.




=======PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ==========



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
easily and
comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN and 
AGAIN !!!



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



 FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS 
WILL COME
TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS:





======== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.===========



For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears 
ON THAT
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR 
ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.



=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00.



 === Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 
5 reports
from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so 
they will
be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will 
order them
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your 
desk in
case something happen to your computer.



=== IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than 
what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out 
on majority
of your profits.



Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it 
does not
work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and 
if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their 
friends/relatives
names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it 
does not
work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and 
then nothing
happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what  is 
instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty 
reaps the
reward!!!



1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement 
and REMOVE
the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has 
made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.



 2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.



3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.



4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.



5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2



6.. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE
you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!



===============================================================



*** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and 
save it on
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.



Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To 
assist you
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you 
purchase
will provide you with invaluable marketing information which 
includes how to
send
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified 
ads and
much  more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture 
going:



METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
            
===============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails 
each. Let's
also
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the 
response could be
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send
out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).



Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.



With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. 
Those 10 people
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. 
Out of
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 
people
responded and ordered Report # 2.



Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.



Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 
million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for 
Report # 4.



Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000
(50  million) e-mails.  The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 
orders for
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half 
million).



Your total income in this example is: 1... $50 + 2... $500 + 3...
$5,000 + 4... $50,000 + 5... $500,000 .... Grand Total= 
$555,550.00



NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST 
POSSIBLE
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE 
A LOT OF
MONEY !
           
===============================================================



REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if 
everyone or half
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or 
more? There
are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and 
counting. Believe
me, many people will do just that, and more!




METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
=============================================================



Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are 
hundreds of
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the 
Internet will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with 
Method # 1
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all 
you must
do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always 
provide same
day service on all orders.



This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name 
and
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise 
until they
receive the report.




 ===================== AVAILABLE REPORTS====================



ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send 
$5 cash
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure 
the cash is
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of 
those
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you 
are ordering,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.



PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :




===============================================================
______________________________________________________________



REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net''


Order Report #1 from:


Brad Swanson
4920 204th St W
Farmington, MN  55024
USA



____________



REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net''



Order Report # 2 from :


Matt Farruggio
6890 East Sunrise Dr
Suite #120
PMB 351
Tucson, Arizona 85750


 ________________________________________________________________



REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net''



Order Report # 3 from:


Mike Nichols
PO Box 270061
Flower Mound, TX 75027
USA


 ________________________________________________________________



REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the 
Net''



Order Report # 4 from:

Jack Zampell
4511 Rockford Ln.
Chattanooga, TN 37411
USA

 ________________________________________________________________



REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE''



Order Report # 5 from:

Heidi Bohm
1095 Osceola Ave #103
St Paul, MN  55105
USA

______________________________________________________________




     $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$



Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:



=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 
2 weeks,
continue sending e-mails until you do.



=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that 
you should
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.



=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will 
continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is 
moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.



 You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND 
ANOTHER BATCH OF
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to 
the income
you can generate from this business !!!



         
===============================================================



FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:



You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for
the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can
make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have 
ever
imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change 
it in
anyway. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to 
e-mail a copy of
this exciting report after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1
and moved others to #2 ......# 5 as instructed above. One of the 
people you
send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name 
will be on
every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the 
more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the 
ideas,
information, materials and opportunity to become financially 
independent. IT
IS UP TO YOU NOW!



   =================== MORE TESTIMONIALS======================



'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am 
an
accountant  with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money. When
I received this  program I grumbled to Jody about receiving 
''junk mail''. I
made fun of the whole  thing, spouting my knowledge of the 
population and
percentages involved. I ''knew''  it wouldn't work. Jody totally 
ignored my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both 
feet.  I
made  merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told 
you so''
on her when  the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! 
Within 3
weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she 
had
received total $ 147,200.00 ...... all cash! I was shocked. I 
have joined
Jody in her ''hobby''.



Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois



=============================================================



'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make 
up my mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I 
decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that 
I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made 
$319,210.00
in the first 12 weeks.  The nice thing about this deal is that it 
does not
matter where people live.  There simply isn't a better investment 
with a
faster return and so big''.



Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada



===============================================================



'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to get
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by 
someone
else.....11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not 
delete
this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the 
money came
within 22 weeks''.



Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.



===============================================================



'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money 
with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully 
and within
10 days
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 
and by the
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is
beautiful, Thanx to internet''.



Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand



==============================================================



ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM !



           
==============================================================



If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade
Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.




==========================THE END======================



This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: 
SECTION 301. Per
Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618,



http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html



This is a one time only unsolicited commercial email. Further 
transmissions
to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to 
you by
sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in 
the subject
line.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





From money2000 at charter.net  Sat Jan 27 11:46:01 2001
From: money2000 at charter.net (B Swanson)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:46:01 -0600
Subject: WOULD YOU LIKE TO WORK FROM HOME?
Message-ID: <auto-000017147181@front001.cluster1.charter.net>






Hello-



I am an e-bay seller making $75,000+ per year, but I want to show 
you what I
took a skeptical chance on, which I have come to realize has made 
our family
at least
an ADDITIONAL $252,000 THIS YEAR to date! This is a project and 
business
that takes dedication, however it has ultilized only a fraction 
of the time
that my regular
selling does, without the costly fees that Ebay charges.



There are countless different concepts of multi-level marketing, 
but sound
marketing strategies are the key to secure financial success. In 
the summer
of 1999 Donald  Trump (A Multi-Millionaire touted by Forbes 
Magazine as one
of the wealthiest men in the country) made an appearance on the 
David
Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if  he lost 
everything and
had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating,  Trump said 
he would
find a good network marketing company and get to work.  The 
audience started
to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and  
dead-panned his
response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting 
out there!"



In this program I send out emails just like this one, as many as 
I can, and
people send me cash in the mail for marketing information that I 
email back
to them upon receipt of funds. Being a service, it is all 
completely legal,
and I get to make that walk to the mailbox every day knowing that 
it is full
of $5 bills for me!!



Do the math... If you send out 100,000 emails (which you can do 
for free,
the reports will show you how) and only 1 in 1000 people 
participates, you
just made $500...and that was only on the first level!!!



At the fifth level, you have a realistic chance to be at over 
$500,000! And
that is ONLY ONE person participating out of 1000 at each level!



Report #2 will even show you where you can get One MILLION e-Bay 
email
addresses and all of the software you will need to send emails to 
them, and
HOW!!



This is not just a mail about marketing, and obtaining 
information, however.


Realize FAST how much money there is to be made, and how EASY it 
is to do
over and over... Then act. Make this the one email like this you 
decide to
act on.



Do you HONESTLY think you wont see your meager, one-time $25 
returned to you
a hundredfold AT LEAST?? PLUS, look at the value of the 
informational
reports you are getting for your money, and understand that you 
will be able
to sell them over and over forever, even AFTER you have used them 
for your
own monetary gain!!!



And then you can run the whole program over and over for free!! 
If you
have been looking for a little fun in your life, wait till you 
try THIS
fun...the kind that puts cash in your mailbox!!



Good Luck!!!



Matt Farruggio



                
==================================================



DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES:



 AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV :  (Reportedly on 48 Hours, in a 1999 
feature
report.)



''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your 
home for an
investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time''



THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !



                 
==================================================



BECOMING A MILLIONAIRE WITHIN A YEAR!!!



Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the 
letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity 
of this
letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program, reportedly "48 
hours",
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this 
program
described below, to see if it really can make people money.  The 
show also
investigated whether or not the program was legal.



Their findings proved once and for all that there are 
''absolutely NO Laws
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can 
-follow the
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with 
only $25
out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & 
RESPECT
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN 
EVER.



Here is what Pam Hedland, from Fort Lee, New Jersey had to say: 
'' Thanks to
this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before 
but each
time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally  joined just to see 
what one
could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. 
To my
astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still
coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.




===============================================================



Here is another testimonial: ''' This program has been around for 
a long
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this 
again in
the
mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 
instructions
and
voila' ... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First 
month I only
made $240.00  but the next 2 months after that I made a total of
$290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the 
program, I have
made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to 
success in this
program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' 
More
testimonials later but first.




=======PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ==========



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months 
easily and
comfortably, please read the following. THEN READ IT AGAIN and 
AGAIN !!!



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



 FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS 
WILL COME
TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS:





======== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.===========



For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE
ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears 
ON THAT
LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR 
ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.



=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and
resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00.



 === Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 
5 reports
from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so 
they will
be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will 
order them
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your 
desk in
case something happen to your computer.



=== IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than 
what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out 
on majority
of your profits.



Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it 
does not
work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and 
if you
alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their 
friends/relatives
names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it 
does not
work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and 
then nothing
happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what  is 
instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty 
reaps the
reward!!!



1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement 
and REMOVE
the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has 
made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.



 2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.



3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.



4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.



5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2



6.. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE 
MAKE SURE
you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!



===============================================================



*** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and 
save it on
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.



Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To 
assist you
with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you 
purchase
will provide you with invaluable marketing information which 
includes how to
send
bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified 
ads and
much  more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture 
going:



METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
            
===============================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails 
each. Let's
also
assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the 
response could be
much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send
out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).



Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.



With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. 
Those 10 people
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. 
Out of
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 
people
responded and ordered Report # 2.



Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.



Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 
million
e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for 
Report # 4.



Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
50,000,000
(50  million) e-mails.  The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 
orders for
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half 
million).



Your total income in this example is: 1... $50 + 2... $500 + 3...
$5,000 + 4... $50,000 + 5... $500,000 .... Grand Total= 
$555,550.00



NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST 
POSSIBLE
RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE 
A LOT OF
MONEY !
           
===============================================================



REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU
MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if 
everyone or half
or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or 
more? There
are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and 
counting. Believe
me, many people will do just that, and more!




METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
=============================================================



Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are 
hundreds of
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the 
Internet will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with 
Method # 1
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all 
you must
do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always 
provide same
day service on all orders.



This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name 
and
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise 
until they
receive the report.




 ===================== AVAILABLE REPORTS====================



ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send 
$5 cash
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure 
the cash is
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of 
those
sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you 
are ordering,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.



PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :




===============================================================
______________________________________________________________



REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net''


Order Report #1 from:


Brad Swanson
4920 204th St W
Farmington, MN  55024
USA



____________



REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net''



Order Report # 2 from :


Matt Farruggio
6890 East Sunrise Dr
Suite #120
PMB 351
Tucson, Arizona 85750


 ________________________________________________________________



REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net''



Order Report # 3 from:


Mike Nichols
PO Box 270061
Flower Mound, TX 75027
USA


 ________________________________________________________________



REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the 
Net''



Order Report # 4 from:

Jack Zampell
4511 Rockford Ln.
Chattanooga, TN 37411
USA

 ________________________________________________________________



REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE''



Order Report # 5 from:

Heidi Bohm
1095 Osceola Ave #103
St Paul, MN  55105
USA

______________________________________________________________




     $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$



Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:



=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 
2 weeks,
continue sending e-mails until you do.



=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that 
you should
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.



=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will 
continue to
roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is 
moved down
on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.



 You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND 
ANOTHER BATCH OF
E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to 
the income
you can generate from this business !!!



         
===============================================================



FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:



You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for
the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can
make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have 
ever
imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change 
it in
anyway. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to 
e-mail a copy of
this exciting report after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1
and moved others to #2 ......# 5 as instructed above. One of the 
people you
send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name 
will be on
every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the 
more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the 
ideas,
information, materials and opportunity to become financially 
independent. IT
IS UP TO YOU NOW!



   =================== MORE TESTIMONIALS======================



'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am 
an
accountant  with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money. When
I received this  program I grumbled to Jody about receiving 
''junk mail''. I
made fun of the whole  thing, spouting my knowledge of the 
population and
percentages involved. I ''knew''  it wouldn't work. Jody totally 
ignored my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both 
feet.  I
made  merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told 
you so''
on her when  the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! 
Within 3
weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she 
had
received total $ 147,200.00 ...... all cash! I was shocked. I 
have joined
Jody in her ''hobby''.



Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois



=============================================================



'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make 
up my mind
to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I 
decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that 
I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I
found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made 
$319,210.00
in the first 12 weeks.  The nice thing about this deal is that it 
does not
matter where people live.  There simply isn't a better investment 
with a
faster return and so big''.



Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada



===============================================================



'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to get
another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by 
someone
else.....11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not 
delete
this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the 
money came
within 22 weeks''.



Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.



===============================================================



'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money 
with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully 
and within
10 days
the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 
and by the
end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is
beautiful, Thanx to internet''.



Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand



==============================================================



ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL FREEDOM !



           
==============================================================



If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade
Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.




==========================THE END======================



This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: 
SECTION 301. Per
Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618,



http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html



This is a one time only unsolicited commercial email. Further 
transmissions
to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to 
you by
sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in 
the subject
line.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





From inkjets2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 27 15:56:08 2001
From: inkjets2001 at yahoo.com (vincent)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:56:08
Subject: Epson, Canon, Lexmark & H.P. inkjets
Message-ID: <200101272057.MAA00304@toad.com>



SAME DAY SHIPPING WORLDWIDE $5.00 PER ORDER
THESE ARE OEM COMPATIBLE CARTRIDGES NOT REFILLS

EPSON 1 BLACK & 1 COLOR $10.00 us

EPSON 4 BLACK & 3 COLORS $30.00 us

EPSON 3000/5000 ALL 4 COLORS $50.00 us
Epson stylus photo 700, 750, 700EX --4 blk & 3 color for $35.00 us

CANON BCI-21 --6 BLACK  & 6 COLOR $30.00 us

CANON 3000/5000/6000 BCI-3 ALSO AVAILABLE

EPSON 480 AND 900/980 ALSO AVAILABLE

EPSON 777  EMAIL FOR DETAILS

LEXMARK AND HP BLACK INKJETS $20.00

LEXMARK AND HP COLOR INKJETS $25.00

COMPATIBLE AND NEW OEM TONER CARTRIDGES AVAILABLE ALSO.

TO ORDER --SEND NAME -ADDRESS -PHONE NUMBER --MODEL OF MACHINE AND 
QUANTITY

Epson Compatibility--Model 2, pro, pro xl 
200,400,440,480,500,580,600,640,660,670,700,740,740i,760,800,820,850,860, 
1000,1160,1520 
email is only sent once -this is a business e-mail offering inkjets -and will be removed 






From inkjets2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 27 15:56:14 2001
From: inkjets2001 at yahoo.com (vincent)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:56:14
Subject: Epson, Canon, Lexmark & H.P. inkjets
Message-ID: <200101272108.PAA04830@einstein.ssz.com>



SAME DAY SHIPPING WORLDWIDE $5.00 PER ORDER
THESE ARE OEM COMPATIBLE CARTRIDGES NOT REFILLS

EPSON 1 BLACK & 1 COLOR $10.00 us

EPSON 4 BLACK & 3 COLORS $30.00 us

EPSON 3000/5000 ALL 4 COLORS $50.00 us
Epson stylus photo 700, 750, 700EX --4 blk & 3 color for $35.00 us

CANON BCI-21 --6 BLACK  & 6 COLOR $30.00 us

CANON 3000/5000/6000 BCI-3 ALSO AVAILABLE

EPSON 480 AND 900/980 ALSO AVAILABLE

EPSON 777  EMAIL FOR DETAILS

LEXMARK AND HP BLACK INKJETS $20.00

LEXMARK AND HP COLOR INKJETS $25.00

COMPATIBLE AND NEW OEM TONER CARTRIDGES AVAILABLE ALSO.

TO ORDER --SEND NAME -ADDRESS -PHONE NUMBER --MODEL OF MACHINE AND 
QUANTITY

Epson Compatibility--Model 2, pro, pro xl 
200,400,440,480,500,580,600,640,660,670,700,740,740i,760,800,820,850,860, 
1000,1160,1520 
email is only sent once -this is a business e-mail offering inkjets -and will be removed 






From inkjets2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 27 15:56:14 2001
From: inkjets2001 at yahoo.com (vincent)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:56:14
Subject: Epson, Canon, Lexmark & H.P. inkjets
Message-ID: <200101272057.f0RKvhO22817@ak47.algebra.com>



SAME DAY SHIPPING WORLDWIDE $5.00 PER ORDER
THESE ARE OEM COMPATIBLE CARTRIDGES NOT REFILLS

EPSON 1 BLACK & 1 COLOR $10.00 us

EPSON 4 BLACK & 3 COLORS $30.00 us

EPSON 3000/5000 ALL 4 COLORS $50.00 us
Epson stylus photo 700, 750, 700EX --4 blk & 3 color for $35.00 us

CANON BCI-21 --6 BLACK  & 6 COLOR $30.00 us

CANON 3000/5000/6000 BCI-3 ALSO AVAILABLE

EPSON 480 AND 900/980 ALSO AVAILABLE

EPSON 777  EMAIL FOR DETAILS

LEXMARK AND HP BLACK INKJETS $20.00

LEXMARK AND HP COLOR INKJETS $25.00

COMPATIBLE AND NEW OEM TONER CARTRIDGES AVAILABLE ALSO.

TO ORDER --SEND NAME -ADDRESS -PHONE NUMBER --MODEL OF MACHINE AND 
QUANTITY

Epson Compatibility--Model 2, pro, pro xl 
200,400,440,480,500,580,600,640,660,670,700,740,740i,760,800,820,850,860, 
1000,1160,1520 
email is only sent once -this is a business e-mail offering inkjets -and will be removed 






From extreme at chello.nl  Sat Jan 27 07:54:37 2001
From: extreme at chello.nl (P. Leurink)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:54:37 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <019501c08879$744ede40$0100a8c0@main>


Dear webmaster

We are the biggest telecom provider in Europe. we sell our phonelines to
GIB, TC, Nocc etc etc

we started now our own dialer program. We provide 250 countries (99% of the
world) and we
have the highest rates you can find on the web.
we make monthly 200 million minutes.

If you want beter rates reply and i send you our rates.

you can also vissit our home page (no rates on the site)
http://www.xldialer.com

Regards

Paul




From extreme at chello.nl  Sat Jan 27 07:54:46 2001
From: extreme at chello.nl (P. Leurink)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:54:46 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <019e01c08879$7a3492a0$0100a8c0@main>


Dear webmaster

We are the biggest telecom provider in Europe. we sell our phonelines to
GIB, TC, Nocc etc etc

we started now our own dialer program. We provide 250 countries (99% of the
world) and we
have the highest rates you can find on the web.
we make monthly 200 million minutes.

If you want beter rates reply and i send you our rates.

you can also vissit our home page (no rates on the site)
http://www.xldialer.com

Regards

Paul




From jhh2001 at msn.com  Sat Jan 27 15:01:48 2001
From: jhh2001 at msn.com (Webmaster)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:01:48 -0500
Subject: Tried Selling Something People Actually BUY?
Message-ID: <0c35f2801231b11CPIMSSMTPU10@email.msn.com>



The number of webmasters and other Internet marketers
is in  the dozens of millions. *Most* would benefit from
membership  in The Success Arsenal!  (They have joined
by the hundreds  and are joining as you read.)

                   Now they can get that FROM YOU.

     * A proven, free sales website
     * $40.00 for each sale
     * Quarterly bonuses for top producers
     * Real-time hit and sales statistics
     * Ads, banners, articles, and assistance
     * S O M E T H I N G   P E O P L E   A C T U A L L Y   B U Y


      http://successarsenal.com/wow/reprt3982a/index.html 




Success To You!!

Marketing Resource Group.

Start your business today - Make money tonight!
Four instant sites that make you money!
http://successarsenal.com/wow/reprt3982a/index.html
                                                         







From jhh2001 at msn.com  Sat Jan 27 15:01:49 2001
From: jhh2001 at msn.com (Webmaster)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:01:49 -0500
Subject: Tried Selling Something People Actually BUY?
Message-ID: <0f89d2901231b11CPIMSSMTPU09@email.msn.com>



The number of webmasters and other Internet marketers
is in  the dozens of millions. *Most* would benefit from
membership  in The Success Arsenal!  (They have joined
by the hundreds  and are joining as you read.)

                   Now they can get that FROM YOU.

     * A proven, free sales website
     * $40.00 for each sale
     * Quarterly bonuses for top producers
     * Real-time hit and sales statistics
     * Ads, banners, articles, and assistance
     * S O M E T H I N G   P E O P L E   A C T U A L L Y   B U Y


      http://successarsenal.com/wow/reprt3982a/index.html 




Success To You!!

Marketing Resource Group.

Start your business today - Make money tonight!
Four instant sites that make you money!
http://successarsenal.com/wow/reprt3982a/index.html
                                                         







From RUNTTOYBOX at aol.com  Sat Jan 27 16:55:17 2001
From: RUNTTOYBOX at aol.com (RUNTTOYBOX at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:55:17 EST
Subject: STUFFING ENVELOPES
Message-ID: <da.190f9a4.27a4c7f5@aol.com>


THIS E-MAIL IS FOR ANDREW AEVORE ( PRESIDENT)?
I MAIL YOU A MONEY ORDER FOR $27.50  ON 1-2-2001 I'AM STILL WAITING TO HEAR 
FROM YOU ABOUT STUFFING ENVELOPES. IF I DON'T HEAR FROM YOU SOON I'LL PUT A 
TRACE ON THE MONEY ORDER JUST IN CASE IT'S LOST.
                             THANK YOU.  BERNICE REED

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From auto129994 at hushmail.com  Sat Jan 27 16:56:05 2001
From: auto129994 at hushmail.com (auto129994 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:56:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Whois Database Hacked for Microsoft.com
Message-ID: <200101280058.QAA26194@user7.hushmail.com>

<snort>  When will people stop falling for this?

Remember that when you register a second-level domain, you can assign any
subdomains you want through your own DNS service.  The owners of KLUGE.ORG,
for example, could add RAYMOND.D.MERENIUK.IS.A.MORON.KLUGE.ORG.  If
Microsoft itself had such a juvenile sense of humor, it could strike back
with LINUS.SUCKS.DONKEY.BALLS.MICROSOFT.COM.  A few hours to propagate, 
and
it's visible to everyone.

Duh.

"Raymond D. Mereniuk" <Raymond at fbn.bc.ca> babbled:

> It would appear this is not a good week for Microsoft.  It appears
> the Network Solutions whois database has been hacked.  This is
> what I get when I do a fwhois on a Linux system.
>
> whois.crsnic.net]
>
> Whois Server Version 1.3
>
> Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
> with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
> for detailed information.
>
> MICROSOFT.COM.WILL.LIVE.FOREVER.BUT.LUNIX.SUCKS-BYBIRTH.ARTISTICCHEESE.COM
>
> MICROSOFT.COM.WAS.HACKED.TODAY.BY.JAMESSMALL.COM
[...]
> MICROSOFT.COM.AINT.WORTH.SHIT.KLUGE.ORG
> MICROSOFT.COM
>
[...]


From declan at well.com  Sat Jan 27 17:48:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:48:58 -0500
Subject: FC: Ashcroft's replies to questions about Carnivore, MS antitrust
Message-ID: <mailman.355.1576007492.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

John Ashcroft has replied to written questions sent to him by members
of the Senate Judiciary committee, a procedure extended at the behest
of Democratic senators.

Below are his responses on technology-related questions. You can see
the complete Q&A at:
  http://www.politechbot.com/docs/ashcroft.012701.html

In his response to a Carnivore question, Ashcroft seems not to know
that Carnivore is already in use. And, as EPIC's Marc Rotenberg points
out, Ashcroft did not pledge to work with outside experts on a
technical review of Carnivore.

-Declan
 

                    QUESTIONS FROM SENATOR LEAHY

   Q. Do you believe that there is such a thing as constitutional right
   to privacy - not specifying if, for example, such a right includes the
   right to terminate a pregnancy - but, more broadly, is there a
   constitutionally protected right to privacy? If so, which provision of
   the Constitution is the source of that right to privacy? 
   
   A: I believe in the right to privacy. The Supreme Court has held that
   there is a constitutional right to privacy, that finds its genesis in
   the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments. I also
   believe that the Third Amendment embodies a constitutional right to
   privacy.
   
   Q. Are you satisfied with thrust of the current antitrust laws or do
   you intend to recommend that the new Administration review these laws
   with the intent of proposing some significant changes? 
   
   A: The basic structure of the antitrust laws has been in place for
   decades. Although there may be a need for targeted reform, I do not
   personally perceive a need for a comprehensive overall of the
   antitrust laws. Before providing any recommendations concerning any
   concrete proposal, I would certainly consult with the President, the
   Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust and Members of this
   Committee, as appropriate.
   
   Q. Last year, Congress passed a Sense of Congress resolution regarding
   post-conviction DNA testing and competent counsel. Specifically,
   Congress declared that it should condition forensic science-related
   grants to States on the States' agreement to ensure post-conviction
   DNA testing in appropriate cases. Congress also declared that it
   should work with the States to improve the quality of legal
   representation in capital cases through the establishment of
   standards. Do you agree with this bipartisan Sense of Congress
   resolution, and as Attorney General, would you work with me to ensure
   that post-conviction DNA testing and competent legal representation
   are available in all States? 
   
   A: I believe that there is no greater injustice than to execute an
   innocent person. The Sixth Amendment provides constitutional
   protections for the right to counsel for criminal defendants, a right
   that is particularly precious in capital cases. I will work with the
   President and the Congress to help ensure that no innocent person is
   executed in America and that capital defendants have access to DNA
   technology to confirm guilt or innocence.
   
   Q. During the campaign, President-elect Bush said: "Any time DNA
   evidence, in the context of all the evidence, is deemed to be relevant
   in the guilt or innocence of a person on Death Row, I believe we need
   to use it." Do you agree that DNA evidence should be available to
   death row inmates any time that it is deemed to be relevant to the
   issue of guilt or innocence? Would you agree that DNA evidence should
   also be available to other inmates, such as inmates serving life
   sentences? 
   
   A: I believe DNA evidence has great promise for making our criminal
   justice system fairer and more accurate, and would be happy to work
   with the President and the Congress to expand its availability to
   prosecutors and criminal defendants, especially in capital cases.

   Q. In June 1999, the Supreme Court issued two decisions in Florida
   Prepaid and College Savings Bank that effectively immunized the States
   from damages liability for violations of intellectual property rights.
   Would you support my legislative effort to restore effective federal
   protection for intellectual property as against the States, in a
   manner that avoids any conflict with the Constitution as interpreted
   by the U.S. Supreme Court? 
   
   A: Although I have not studied this issue closely, any resolution of it
   must involve a delicate balancing of the needs to protect intellectual
   property with the constitutional mandate of federalism. I look forward
   to working with the Committee to assist in ensuring that intellectual
   property is fully protected in the modern age, in a manner consistent
   with the U.S. Constitution.
   
   Q. You are a strong advocate of the Tenth Amendment as protecting
   liberty by preserving States' rights against the Federal Government.
   The Ninth Amendment also protects liberty, by preserving individual
   rights against the Government. What is your understanding of the Ninth
   Amendment? 
   
   A: There have been few opinions of the Supreme Court interpreting the
   Ninth Amendment, but its plain text adverts to the "rights . . .
   retained by the people." I believe it is incumbent upon the Department
   of Justice to enforce the law and protect the constitutional rights of
   all Americans.

   Q. The Justice Department provides agency-wide guidance on
   implementing the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). Janet Reno made
   significant reforms in implementing this Act by calling upon agencies
   to exercise discretion where possible and to grant requests unless
   disclosure would cause actual harm and by making FOIA implementation
   part of every employee's job performance evaluation. Would you (a)
   consider FOIA enforcement an important part of an Attorney General's
   responsibilities; (b) ensure that FOIA activities get adequate budget
   allocation at Justice and encourage adequate funds for enforcement of
   FOIA at other agencies; (c) support and personally endorse
   government-wide training in FOIA responsibilities; and (d) advocate
   sanctions against government employees who deliberately withhold
   records from FOIA processing? 
   
   A: Appropriate public access to governmental records is an important
   check on arbitrary government action. If I am fortunate enough to be
   confirmed as Attorney General, I will fully and faithfully enforce the
   Freedom of Information Act and ensure that the Department of Justice
   does the same.

   Q. In September 1998, when you chaired a subcommittee hearing on the
   intent of the Second Amendment, you stated: "I believe it is time that
   we once again recognize the Second Amendment for what it is. It is a
   protection of individual liberty." Given your view of the Second
   Amendment, do you believe that all gun control laws are
   unconstitutional? As Attorney General, would you urge the Supreme
   Court to accept your interpretation of the Second Amendment? 
   
   A: I do not believe that the Second Amendment prohibits common-sense gun
   control measures, and if confirmed, as Attorney General I will
   vigorously defend federal gun control statutes passed by Congress
   whenever there is a good-faith and conscientious basis for doing so.


                        QUESTIONS FROM SENATOR KOHL
                                      
   ANTITRUST - MCI WORLDCOM/SPRINT
   
   Q. A little more than a year ago, the Judiciary Committee held a
   hearing on the competitive implications of the then-pending merger
   between MCI WorldCom and Sprint, a merger which was ultimately
   abandoned when the Justice Department opposed it. The merger would
   have combined the second and third largest long distance phone
   companies and would have resulted in two companies capturing nearly 80
   percent of the long distance market. Despite these large market
   shares, you said that "I am strongly inclined to support the proposed
   merger." 
   
   While you acknowledged that the competitive implications of the merger
   needed to be examined, they were secondary to "my largest concern" -
   "the jobs of the hard working and talented people of the State of
   Missouri." Finally, you argued that in examining this merger, "the
   current landscape is not the landscape to be considered - instead it
   should be analyzed based on the possible future of the marketplace." 
   
   Are your statements at the MCI WorldCom/Sprint merger hearings
   indicative of the approach you believe the Justice Department's
   Antitrust Division should take when reviewing mergers? Under the
   Department's Merger Guidelines, the competitive implications of the
   proposed merger are paramount and the merger is analyzed with regard
   to the current state of the marketplace. Would you make any changes to
   the Antitrust Division's standards for reviewing mergers such as
   paying more attention to factors other than the merger's likely
   effects on competition? 
   
   Do you think the Justice Department was mistaken to oppose the now
   abandoned MCI WorldCom/Sprint merger? If yes, why? Should we be
   worried when a merger leads to such high concentration as this one -
   which would have resulted in two companies controlling nearly 80% of
   the market - could lead to higher prices for consumers? 
   
   A: In the area of antitrust enforcement, the competitive implications of
   any proposed merger are of paramount importance. Thus, I would
   approach any proposed merger with an eye towards ensuring open
   competition in the marketplace. I would be open to considering
   modifications to the Antitrust Division's standards for reviewing
   mergers, but would do so in consultation with the antitrust experts in
   the Department of Justice. With respect to the MCI WorldCom/Sprint
   merger in particular, I believe it would be imprudent to comment on
   the specifics of this transaction, or any transaction, without the
   benefit of the full knowledge of the Antitrust Division.
   
   ANTITRUST - SHERMAN ACT
   
   Q. The fundamental antitrust law - the Sherman Act - was enacted more
   than a hundred years ago. For more than a century, it has protected
   the principles we hold most important - competition, consumer choice,
   fairness, and equality. 
   
   The antitrust laws are significant because they ensure that
   competition among businesses of any size will be fair and that
   consumers will pay low prices for all sorts of goods and services. And
   these laws have a proud tradition of being supported in a non-partisan
   manner - they've been vigorously enforced over the years by both
   Republicans and Democrats. 
   
   What role do you think antitrust laws have had in shaping our economy
   and preserving competition? 
   
   How should we use antitrust laws to protect against consolidation of
   economic power - to make sure that consumers aren't charged high
   prices by large companies that have swallowed up their competition? 
   
   A: The antitrust laws have been a vital part of ensuring a free and open
   marketplace in this country and, in my view, should continue to serve
   this role. By ensuring that any proposed merger promotes competition,
   and that an undue consolidation of monopolistic power does not accrue
   in the hands of a single business entity, I would help ensure the
   existence of free and open markets. This, in turn, would help ensure
   that consumers are not charged prices above free market levels.
   
   ANTITRUST - ENFORCEMENT
   
   Q. In the last few years, the Antitrust Division has been very active
   in antitrust enforcement, bringing prominent cases, such as the
   Microsoft case, and challenging many large mergers, such as MCI
   WorldCom/Sprint and Lockheed Martin/Northrup Grumman, to name a few. 
   
   How would you evaluate the performance of the Justice Department in
   dealing with the MCI WorldCom/Sprint merger and the Lockheed
   Martin/Northrup Grumman merger? Do you believe that the Antitrust
   Division has been appropriately enforcing our nation's antitrust laws?
   Is there any change in approach or philosophy of antitrust enforcement
   we can expect should you be confirmed as Attorney General? 
   
   A: I believe that it would be imprudent to comment on how the Justice
   Department has dealt with the MCI WorldCom/Sprint and the Lockheed
   Martin/Northrup mergers in particular, as I have not had the benefit
   of the Antitrust Division's full learning on these matters. For the
   same reason, it would be imprudent for me to comment upon the
   Antitrust Division's enforcement of the antitrust laws in any
   particular cases. With respect to the philosophy of antitrust
   enforcement that I would follow should I be confirmed as Attorney
   General, I can assure you that I will fully enforce the antitrust laws
   to help ensure free and open competition in the marketplace.
   
   ANTITRUST - FUTURE OF THE ANTITRUST LAWS
   
   Q. Some have argued that our nation's antitrust laws, many written
   over a hundred years ago, are outmoded and need to be updated before
   they can be applied to today's high-tech industries. Others believe
   that the antitrust laws apply equally well to modern economic problems
   and high-tech industries as they did to problems of economic
   concentration in the railroad, oil and other industries when they were
   first written. 
   
   What is your view? Do you think our antitrust laws are outmoded and in
   need of revision? 
   
   A: The antitrust laws have proven to be flexible enough to adopt to many
   new situations. That being said, one should always be open to the
   possibility that improvements could be made, particularly where
   fundamental economic shifts have occurred. If confirmed as Attorney
   General, I will seek the advice of experts in this field, including
   those in the Antitrust Division, before making any determination as to
   whether are antitrust laws are in need of any revision.
   
   ANTITRUST - EUROPEAN REVIEW

   PRIVACY
   
   Q. Last year on the Judiciary Committee, we explored the FBI's
   "Carnivore" system - an e-mail surveillance program designed to track
   and monitor a suspect's online communications. This is a powerful law
   enforcement tool - perhaps too powerful - and we must be sure that it
   is not misused. If, as we are now learning, "Carnivore" is able to
   capture all e-mail traffic channeled through an Internet Service
   Provider (ISP), then the fear of innocent civilians being subject to
   search without cause is justified. Such a "fishing expedition"
   wouldn't be right. 
   
   How important do you think it is that we protect the privacy rights of
   civilians, and how serious a threat to privacy would "Carnivore" be if
   it's misused or inadvertently "captures" information other than the
   suspect's? 
   
   A: The Internet has obviously grown to be a vibrant part of our modern
   economy. It is the Justice Department's responsibility to ensure that
   those who conduct research or business on line can do so in a safe,
   secure environment. At the same time, however, we must take care that
   the government does not become too heavy handed in its online law
   enforcement activities in order to protect the privacy rights of
   law-abiding citizens. As you know, when I was in the Senate, I
   convened hearings on the importance of respecting privacy rights in
   the digital age. If confirmed, I will conduct a thorough review of
   Carnivore and its technical capabilities, and work closely with law
   enforcement to ensure that adequate measures are taken to secure
   personal privacy before the program is deployed. I would look forward
   to working with you to ensure that a proper balance is struck in this
   respect.

                      QUESTIONS FROM SENATOR FEINGOLD

   Q. The FBI, in increasing isolation from the rest of the nation's law
   enforcement agencies, refuses to make electronic recordings of
   interrogations that produce confessions. Do you agree that this
   practice makes subsequent scrutiny of the legality and reliability of
   such interrogations more difficult? 
   
   I have not reviewed the details of this specific FBI policy, and would
   need to consult with the professionals at the FBI before making an
   assessment. I assure you that I will take all reasonable steps to help
   ensure that all criminal defendants receive the full protection of Due
   Process.
   
   Q. Do you have any objection to changing this practice? 
   
   I have an open mind on this issue. Not yet having had the opportunity
   to conduct a full and fair review of the policy, I cannot currently
   make a reasonable assessment.

Complete Q&A at:
  http://www.politechbot.com/docs/ashcroft.012701.html



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----- End forwarded message -----




From kevinbaldwin at bigpond.com  Sat Jan 27 07:26:59 2001
From: kevinbaldwin at bigpond.com (kevin baldwin)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:26:59 +1000
Subject: show me whatu have
Message-ID: <000d01c08875$99a74000$ad7d36cb@1406900055>


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From atek3 at gmx.net  Sun Jan 28 02:46:25 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:46:25 -0800
Subject: Fw: Update your address.
Message-ID: <002701c08917$91fcf0a0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


YA FUCKING RIGHT.  RESPOND TO THIS AND YOUR ASS WILL BE SUPER-SPAMMED.
I hate these cocksucking pig fuckers who try this bullshit

atek3
----- Original Message -----
From: <update2001 at zxmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:36 AM
Subject: CDR: Update your address.


>
> We are updating our email address file.
>
> If you do not want to receive special promotions and Internet offers
please push reply and put your email address within the subject line to be
removed. Please put your email address within the subject line or  the
system will not be able to receive it.
>
> Thank you.
>
>




From cormin at wickedspeed.net  Sat Jan 27 23:51:19 2001
From: cormin at wickedspeed.net (cormin at wickedspeed.net)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:51:19 -0500
Subject: Play Vegas in your own House!!!!
Message-ID: <d8v07df7667.05m23j1mwh4k@mx10.wickedspeed.net>

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From webmaster at circes-isle.com  Sun Jan 28 02:52:47 2001
From: webmaster at circes-isle.com (LolitaXXX)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:52:47 -0800
Subject: are you STILL renting Adult videos from the store?
Message-ID: <20010128105225514.AAM91@server01.concentric.net@[207.171.201.2]>


if so ...  then www.Circes-Isle.com is waiting for you:)  Streaming FULL-LENGTH videos of your favorite HOT SEXY porn stars just waiting for your viewing pleasure!  SEE the BEST of the XXX movies TONIGHT in the comfort of your own home ...  NEVER AGAIN rent tapes from stores !!!!   many MANY titles to be posted ....    www.Circes-Isle.com  for FULL LENGTH MOVIES ONLINE !!!




From cypherpunks at cyberpass.net  Sun Jan 28 00:48:51 2001
From: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net (sane person)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:48:51 -0500
Subject: DEA getting close to *banning* hemp foods and cosmetic products!
Message-ID: <200101280848.DAA30651@raq2.potomacnet.com>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEA getting close to *banning* hemp foods and cosmetic products!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To help, please visit http://www.SaveHemp.org


Dear Friend,

The DEA has now officially announced
that it intends to ban most hemp
products in the United States,
including food made from sterile
(non-psychoactive) hemp seeds and
hemp-based personal-care products.

Whether or not you expressed your
outrage in October when we first
heard about the DEA's plans, please
visit http://www.SaveHemp.org now to
send an updated pre-written letter to
all of your elected officials and the
DEA.

(Many legislators who are now in
office were not in office in October.
In addition, legislators who
contacted the DEA in October on
behalf of their constituents were
told that there wasn't any official
proposal to ban hemp -- which is no
longer true. Please visit
http://www.SaveHemp.org to send your
second round of letters today!)

Under the DEA's proposed regulation,
literally millions of Americans will
be criminalized for possessing
shampoos, lotions, and soaps that
have the slightest amount of
naturally occurring THC, the primary
active ingredient in marijuana. (It
is impossible to get a psychoactive
effect from hemp-based shampoos and
soaps, but the DEA is proposing to
ban them nevertheless.)

Those who are arrested for shampoo
or soap will face up to one year in
federal prison and a $10,000 fine --
the same penalties they would face if
they were arrested for possessing a
small amount of marijuana.

If someone is arrested with a
stockpile of (currently legal) hemp
products that weighs hundreds of
pounds, it stands to reason that the
defendant would face a 5- or 10-year
mandatory minimum prison sentence --
or even the death penalty -- under
federal law.

There are already 700,000 arrests
every year in the U.S. for marijuana
offenses. Our nation's beleaguered
criminal justice system doesn't need
the additional strain of processing
100,000's of additional arrests that
will result from the illegal
possession of non-psychoactive
shampoos and soaps.

We don't need another front in our
nation's failed war on drugs. Please
oppose the DEA's hemp ban before it
is allowed to take effect.

Please visit http://www.SaveHemp.org
right away. Thank you.





From grobusc at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 28 06:41:27 2001
From: grobusc at yahoo.com (grobusc at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:41:27 -0600
Subject: I've got a feeling
Message-ID: <36919.362129282406400.9802689@localhost>


..somebody's trying to sneak in our frat and it ain't gonna be
nothing like that!!  As a member of the same subscriber club YOU
JUST GOTTA SEE THIS FRAT MOVIE at http://www.frat-movie.com 

I personally think each and every one of us must see it!  SUPPORT
BLACK MOVIES!  This one IS A MUST SEE!


1Luv
Grob






From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 28 08:56:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:56:23 -0500
Subject: Whois Database Hacked for Microsoft.com
In-Reply-To: <200101280058.QAA26194@user7.hushmail.com>; from auto129994@hushmail.com on Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 07:56:05PM -0500
References: <200101280058.QAA26194@user7.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010128115623.A28658@cluebot.com>


Yes, this continued lack of clue is annoying. I get people
"pointing" this out to me even though I explained it in an article.

-Declan



On Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 07:56:05PM -0500, auto129994 at hushmail.com wrote:
> <snort>  When will people stop falling for this?
> 
> Remember that when you register a second-level domain, you can assign any
> subdomains you want through your own DNS service.  The owners of KLUGE.ORG,
> for example, could add RAYMOND.D.MERENIUK.IS.A.MORON.KLUGE.ORG.  If
> Microsoft itself had such a juvenile sense of humor, it could strike back
> with LINUS.SUCKS.DONKEY.BALLS.MICROSOFT.COM.  A few hours to propagate, 
> and
> it's visible to everyone.
> 
> Duh.
> 
> "Raymond D. Mereniuk" <Raymond at fbn.bc.ca> babbled:
> 
> > It would appear this is not a good week for Microsoft.  It appears
> > the Network Solutions whois database has been hacked.  This is
> > what I get when I do a fwhois on a Linux system.
> >
> > whois.crsnic.net]
> >
> > Whois Server Version 1.3
> >
> > Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
> > with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
> > for detailed information.
> >
> > MICROSOFT.COM.WILL.LIVE.FOREVER.BUT.LUNIX.SUCKS-BYBIRTH.ARTISTICCHEESE.COM
> >
> > MICROSOFT.COM.WAS.HACKED.TODAY.BY.JAMESSMALL.COM
> [...]
> > MICROSOFT.COM.AINT.WORTH.SHIT.KLUGE.ORG
> > MICROSOFT.COM
> >
> [...]
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 28 08:57:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:57:19 -0500
Subject: More info about FBI's bug of mafios keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <20010128143400.5342.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>; from drevil@sidereal.kz on Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 02:34:00PM -0000
References: <20010128143400.5342.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20010128115719.B28658@cluebot.com>


See documents on cluebot.com.

-Declan


On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 02:34:00PM -0000, drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
> 
> A few months ago, it was revealed that the FBI broke into some
> mafiosos house and installed some keysniffing software on his
> computer, because he was using PGP.  Apparently the software was very
> hlpeful to the prosecution in the trial.
> 
> Does anyone have any more technical info about this?  How did they
> physically get in?  What kind of software did they use?  How do they
> get the data which the software collects?
> 
> Curious.  Thanks
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 28 09:07:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:07:34 -0500
Subject: What Powell and Ashcroft think of crypto and Carnivore
Message-ID: <20010128120734.D28658@cluebot.com>


Here's something on where Powell stands on crypto export regs,
and what Reno thought of them during her farewell press conference:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41452,00.html

Also, John Ashcroft has replied to written questions sent to him by
members of the Senate Judiciary committee.

His responses to technology-related questions including Carnivore:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01673.html

The complete Q&A:
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/ashcroft.012701.html

-Declan




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Jan 28 12:18:52 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:18:52 -0800
Subject: Ashcroft's replies to questions about Carnivore, MS
  antitrust
In-Reply-To: <20010128122743.A28983@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010128121539.00a6af78@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 12:27 PM 1/28/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 > And, as EPIC's Marc Rotenberg points
 > out, Ashcroft did not pledge to work with outside experts on a
 > technical review of Carnivore.

This is somewhat unfair.  Ashcroft's answers were as bland and 
uninformative as possible, because he is being borked.  No matter what he 
said, it will be used against him, so the best bet is to say as little as 
possible.

If he said any good things on privacy, it would be used against him as gun 
issue is.  If he said bad things on privacy, it would be used against him 
as the abortion issue is.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      /tXG2cjQknaj3guzBoXHaXgEdjUu9dP29NN4CFjJ
      40SkwzT1aewZ7nv1Nj2pxRvVK5f3diTSnD9SGQ7tb




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 28 09:22:51 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:22:51 -0500
Subject: questions (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <a05010404b6968fdaf0fd@[207.111.241.195]>; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:24:52PM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010125201257.28928E-200000@einstein.ssz.com> <a05010404b6968fdaf0fd@[207.111.241.195]>
Message-ID: <20010128122251.F28658@cluebot.com>




On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:24:52PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> It's bad enough that _you_ spam the list with junks, bad physics, 
> HTML and MIME shit, etc., but why the fuck are you now "forwarding" 
> requests for help on spamming to our list?
> 
> Get some kind of clue, Choate.

It's bad enough when spammers find our list, but when list members
aid and abet spammers, we've reached a disturbing new low.

Clearly some people need k------.

-Declan




From lists at politechbot.com  Sun Jan 28 09:27:43 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:27:43 -0500
Subject: Ashcroft's replies to questions about Carnivore, MS antitrust
Message-ID: <20010128122743.A28983@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----


From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jan 28 10:19:27 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:19:27 -0500
Subject: Bell Grand Jury Experience
Message-ID: <200101281827.NAA05394@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


I've written up notes on the Bell grand jury experience,
a bit too long, too entrapping in this tar pit, to post here:

  http://cryptome.org/jdg-gje.htm

Others have told me about being warned by Robb London
about perjury and self-incrimination during testimony. Lawyers
say this is standard, but possibly lethal.

I didn't know that you can submit a sworn statement beforehand
that all questions will go unanswered to avoid self-incrimination
and that the US Attorneys Manual recommends excusing a
grand jury witness who does that. See the USAM on this:

   http://cryptome.org/grand-jury.htm





From Mikegrossb at aol.com  Sun Jan 28 11:28:17 2001
From: Mikegrossb at aol.com (Mikegrossb at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:28:17 EST
Subject: News update about Libertarian Futurist Society conference
Message-ID: <mailman.356.1576007492.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Jan. 28, 2001

Libertarian Futurist Society announces first national conference
(Reply to mikegrossb at aol.com)

     The Libertarian Futurist Society will celebrate its 20th anniversary by
sponsoring its first national conference May 25-27 at Marcon 36 at the Hyatt
Regency hotel and Columbus Convention Center in Columbus, Ohio.

      LFScon will be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to hear Prometheus Award
winners and LFS leaders explore the future of freedom and the potential of
libertarian science fiction to shape a more rational, diverse, tolerant and
optimistic vision of what is possible in the 21st and coming centuries.

     The Libertarian Futurist Society will present its 2001 Prometheus Hall of
Fame awards ceremony before an audience of more than 1,500 people during the
intermission of Marcon's Saturday night masquerade-- its most popular event.

     LFScon will feature more Prometheus Awardwinning novelists than any other
sf convention or libertarian conference in history.  So far, the LFS has
confirmed eight Prometheus Awardwinners, who collectively have won 11 Best
Novel awards and five Hall of Fame awards: special LFScon Guest of Honor L.
Neil Smith (The Probability Broach, Pallas), Poul Anderson (Trader to the
Stars, The Stars are Also Fire, The Star Fox), F. Paul Wilson (Healer, Wheels
within Wheels, An Enemy of the State), James Hogan (Voyage From Yesteryear,
The Multiplex Man), Vernor Vinge (Marooned in Realtime, A Deepness in the
Sky), J. Neil Schulman (Alongside Night, The Rainbow Cadenza), Brad
Linaweaver (Moon of Ice) and Victor Milan (The Cybernetic Samurai.)

      Marcon and LFScon are jointly planning a major LFScon program track,
with a dozen major panels on libertarian themes, including:
* Heinlein's Children: The Libertarian Writers of Science Fiction.� with a
full panel of our Prometheus Awardwinners;
* Will the Future Be More or Less Free?
* Who Wants to Be a Zillionaire in Space?- A Free Market Approach to
Exploring, Industrializing and Colonizing the Solar System
* Intelligent Self-Defense, the 2nd Amendment and the Hi-Tech Weaponry of the
Future
* The Internet & the First Amendment� Electronic Frontiers
* Illuminati! -- Conspiracies, Real and Imagined
* Cloning & Artificial intelligence: The Freedom Issues
* Freedom Filk:  A Filk (sf folksinging) Concert in Honor of Liberty, with
filking pioneer Karen Anderson, Poul Anderson's wife.

    As Ohio's oldest and largest sf/fantasy convention, Marcon annually
attracts more than 3,000 people (3,400 last year), including authors,
artists, editors, scientists, costumers, gamers and fans from more than 30
states and Canada.  There's something for everyone, including autographing
sessions (with all  Prometheus Awardwinners); author readings; dances;
parties (including an LFS Friday night bash in a Hyatt Hotel suite); art show
& auction; charity auction; panel discussions on separate program tracks
about literature, science, animation, art, children's programming and more;
and a large dealer's room (with 120 tables, including a large Libertarian
Futurist Society exhibit/book-sale.)

     Besides freedom, Marcon's other 2001 program themes will be intelligence
(in honor of  2001: A Space Odyssey's and "2001" guest star Gary
Lockwood) and heroic fantasy (in honor of Marcon fantasy guest Robert
Jordan.)  Other featured Marcon/LFScon guests include � Babylon 5's actor
Peter Woodward,  libertarian sf authors Steven Burgauer ("The Grandfather
Paradox,�The Last American) and Joseph Martino (author of  "Science
Funding: Politics & Porkbarrel" and  "Analog" short stories); First
Amendment/Internet advocate Matt Gaylor; and LFS leaders Victoria Varga, Amy
Rule, Chris Hibbert and Lynn Maners.

      Deadline is March 10 for advance-discount LFScon/Marcon
registrations--with a special offer of $75/person for non-members, including
a trial-year Basic LFS membership, and $60/person for new LFS members's
guests. Mail your name, address, email, phone number and guest names along
with your check (make checks to Libertarian Futurist Society) to LFScon, c/o
R.W. Coffin, 3164 Plymouth Place, Columbus OH 43213.
For more information, explore the website at www.lfs.org, email
mikegrossb at aol.com, or call 614-236-5040.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Sun Jan 28 06:34:00 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 28 Jan 2001 14:34:00 -0000
Subject: More info about FBI's bug of mafios keyboard?
Message-ID: <20010128143400.5342.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



A few months ago, it was revealed that the FBI broke into some
mafiosos house and installed some keysniffing software on his
computer, because he was using PGP.  Apparently the software was very
hlpeful to the prosecution in the trial.

Does anyone have any more technical info about this?  How did they
physically get in?  What kind of software did they use?  How do they
get the data which the software collects?

Curious.  Thanks




From randy at iris.ocn.ne.jp  Sat Jan 27 22:35:50 2001
From: randy at iris.ocn.ne.jp (Randy Amores)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 15:35:50 +0900 (JST)
Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJCpDTiRpJDskRyQ5GyhC?=
Message-ID: <200101280635.PAA14428@iris.ocn.ne.jp>



-------
$B-j#J#M#P$N!X#E%a!<%k#D#M!Y$r$*FO$1CW$7$^$9!#(B
-------

--------------------------
http://www2.snowman.ne.jp/~nnet/
 $B%N!<%9%M%C%H(B
 $B!&#C#G#IL5NA%@%&%s%m!<%I%Z!<%8(B
 $B!&7G<(HD!"%A%c%C%H!"%"%/%;%9%m%0!"%+%&%s%?!<!"%U%)!<%`%G%3!<%I(B
$B!!$=$NB>B??t$"$j(B
 $B!&%*!<%@!<#C#G#I$b<u$1IU$1$F$$$^$9!#(B
 $B!&%I%3%b$,1?1D$9$k%I%3%M%C%H%l%s%?%k%5!<%P!<%5!<%S%9!#(B
$B!!%G%#%l%/%H%jMFNL(B500$B#M#B!'(B8000$B1_!A(B

http://www2.snowman.ne.jp/~nnet/
--------------------------

-------
$B$3$N%a!<%k$O>pJsDs6!4k6H$+$i$N0MMj$K$h$j(B
JMP$B$+$iG[?.$7$F$*$j$^$9!#(B
$B-j%8%'%$%(%`%T!<(B   randy at iris.ocn.ne.jp




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Sun Jan 28 19:21:23 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 19:21:23 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C74@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From retiring32 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 28 19:24:50 2001
From: retiring32 at yahoo.com (#1 Online Business)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:24:50 -0700
Subject: partners wanted!
Message-ID: <200101290334.VAA10305@einstein.ssz.com>


January 28, 2001


Hello Entrepreneur minded,

Are you still interested in looking at a financial opportunity? Not long ago, 
you mentioned that you were trying to find a great opportunity to change your 
life.

Well, I've recently found one that might be just the thing. It's exactly what 
I was hoping for - great products that people want, a top-quality company I can 
trust, and a compensation plan that makes it all worthwhile.

Still interested in looking at an opportunity? Please reply with "NNP" in the 
subject line to me and I'll enclosed some information that will help you understand 
a little more about the opportunity. Plus, I'd love to speak with you more about 
it to answer any questions you might have.

I'll email you more information and how to get started soon!

Or you can get all the detail by email my autoresponder at: retiring32 at freeautobot.com


Sincerely,


Kevin K. Her
Together we can succeed more in life...
*******************************************************

You're receiving this email because you have requested.
Or you have email me your offer recently.  If you wish 
to be remove, reply with remove in the subject to us!

All removal requests will be handled immediately.

This message is sent in compliance of the new E-mail bill, 
SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S. 1618. Transmissions 
to you by the sender of this email will be stopped promptly 
by sending an e-mail with REMOVE in the subject Line.

*******************************************************





From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Sun Jan 28 19:05:04 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:05:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <0G7W00EGZLW5U2@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From rufhouz1 at home.com  Sun Jan 28 20:00:58 2001
From: rufhouz1 at home.com (ed womack)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:00:58 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200101290358.TAA02216@toad.com>


Dear Friend: 

Maybe I havent told you yet, but I get paid to be online.  Really! 

I recently joined UniqueSurf.com, a new company that pays its members to go 
online - and they will be paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars to 
members. 

This is not just a one time shot! As long as you and your friends stay 
online, you will get pay months after months and years after years. Isn't 
that GREAT!!! 

What's the catch? There is no catch. Membership is totally free and 
private.  

The sooner you join, the sooner you'll get paid. Please use my referral ID 
number (rufhouz), because I get paid when you sign up and go online. Be 
sure to tell all your friends who use the Internet -- the more referrals we 
get, the more money we can earn. You can sign up with UniqueSurf.com now at 
http://www.UniqueSurf.com/default.asp?rid=rufhouz 

This is a really great deal with no strings attached! 

Sincerely,
Ed Womack
Member ID# rufhouz




From anonymous at anonymizer.com  Sun Jan 28 22:20:00 2001
From: anonymous at anonymizer.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:20 -0800
Subject: the usual suspects
Message-ID: <200101290621.WAA15091@sirius.infonex.com>


60 Minutes tonite on ELF.  All your usual "terrorist" propaganda
spin and mind control.  Chomsky would be proud.

They use Anonymizer to pass around
secret messages.  The FBI is listening.

Jeff - whatcha think?




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Sun Jan 28 19:20:45 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:20:45 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4430B@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan 28 20:12:37 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:12:37 -0500
Subject: Ashcroft's replies to questions about Carnivore, MS antitrust
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010128121539.00a6af78@shell11.ba.best.com>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 12:18:52PM -0800
References: <20010128122743.A28983@cluebot.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010128121539.00a6af78@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <20010128231237.A1962@cluebot.com>




On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 12:18:52PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
>      --
> At 12:27 PM 1/28/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>  > And, as EPIC's Marc Rotenberg points
>  > out, Ashcroft did not pledge to work with outside experts on a
>  > technical review of Carnivore.
> 
> This is somewhat unfair.  Ashcroft's answers were as bland and 
> uninformative as possible, because he is being borked.  No matter what he 
> said, it will be used against him, so the best bet is to say as little as 
> possible.

Yes, and no. I agree that tactically, he is being smart. Almost too smart:
His lapses of memory, if you read the full Q&A, are both frequent
and useful.

But what's good politics is not necessarily what's right, as is true
in this case. If the nation's top l.e. officer is asked about what
rights Americans should have under the law, I don't expect him
to hedge or quibble or made nice-nice noises to please the Democrats.

-Declan




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jan 28 23:16:47 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:16:47 -0800
Subject: test message to cypherpunks@toad.com - please ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010128231647.01ac0990@idiom.com>


majordomo at toad.com seems to think the list doesn't exist.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bear at sonic.net  Sun Jan 28 23:40:31 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:40:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ashcroft's replies to questions about Carnivore, MS antitrust
In-Reply-To: <20010128231237.A1962@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101282339230.25275-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>But what's good politics is not necessarily what's right, as is true
>in this case. If the nation's top l.e. officer is asked about what
>rights Americans should have under the law, I don't expect him
>to hedge or quibble or made nice-nice noises to please the Democrats.

This may be a litmus test for cynicism.  I expect him to do exactly 
that; I just wish he would not.

				Bear






From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jan 29 00:35:00 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:35:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: test message to cypherpunks@toad.com - please ignore
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010128231647.01ac0990@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101290033530.28816-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> majordomo at toad.com seems to think the list doesn't exist.

Shhhh! Don't tell it. 

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From studiogold4392 at Netbusiness.com  Mon Jan 29 01:17:37 2001
From: studiogold4392 at Netbusiness.com (studiogold4392 at Netbusiness.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:17:37
Subject: SMALL INVESTMENT:  BIG RETURNS!!!!
Message-ID: <647.845601.792452@etbusiness.com>



 

 Dear Friend:

 

 AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

 

 "Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your
 home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time"

 

 THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!

 ===============================================

 

 BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !!

 

 Before you say "Bull" , please read the following. This is the
letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money.

  The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.

 Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost".

 

 DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT
 THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING
 BETTER THAN EVER.

 
 This is what one had to say:

 
 "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached
 many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad
 I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
 for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in".
 Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

 

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 Here is another testimonial:

  "This program has been around for a long time but I never
 believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
 the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
 simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
 started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but
 the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
 So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I
 have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
 The key to success in this program is to follow the simple
 steps and NOT change anything ."

 

 More testimonials later but first,
 

 ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE *******

 

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months

 easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ

 IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!!

 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
 FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

  INSTRUCTIONS:

  **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

  **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE
 REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS
 to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.

 MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE
 TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

 

 **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

  **** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer.

 

 ****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
 listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
 any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through
 6 or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you
 understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it.

 Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it
 will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened.



 So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!



 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement

 and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This

 person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting

 their fortune.



 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

 
 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

 
 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

 
 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

 
 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

 
 PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY !

 =========================================================

 

 Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

 Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.
 

 To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the

 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable

 marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally,

 where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more.

  There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

 
 METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY

 ============================================

 let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it

 goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only

 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

 

 Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.
 With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.
 Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail
 each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded
 and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000
 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response
 to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send
 out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out.

 The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.
 Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
 100,000 orders for Report # 5.

 

 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).
 

 Your total income in this example is:

 1..... $50 +

 2..... $500 +

 3..... $5,000 +

 4..... $50,000 +

 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00

 

 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE

 OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER

 HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF

 MONEY !

 

 ----------------------------------------------------------------

 REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
 ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for
 a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th
 of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
 over 250 million people on the internet worldwide and counting.
 Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

 

 METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

 ===================================================

 Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
 hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads
 on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly
 suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go
 along.
 

 For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report.



 _____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

 

 ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

 

 Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.

 Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.
 

 PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :

 ==============================================

 REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

 

 Michelle Lake
 PO Box 13533
 Tauranga  3030
 New Zealand


 don't forget to provide a real e-mail address, printed clearly, to receive the reports.

 ==============================================

 REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the
 Internet"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

 
 VisionWerks
 2539 Lewisville Clemmons Rd,  #315
 Clemmons, NC 27012
 USA

 

 ==============================================

 REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

 
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 PO Box 33555
 San Diego, CA 92163-3555
 USA

 ==============================================

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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Jan 28 23:52:03 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 02:52:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "Cryptography and Evidence," philosophy, and ZKPs
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101290215030.13409-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




I just came across this PhD thesis in philosophy:

"Cryptography and Evidence" 
Michael Roe
http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/mroe/THESIS.PDF

I have just started to read it. The thesis aims to give a careful account
of just what a protocol can and can *not* establish in the context of
repudiation. I'm pretty excited to see it, because I know of little
material on ZKPs from a "philosophical" point of view (besides Cypherpunks
archives).

What's more, the discussions I have seen with friends and such tend too
often to focus on the probabilistic nature of ZKPs, most often questioning
whether a probabilistic "proof" is a contradiction in terms. This isn't
interesting to me - not least because you can make perfectly rigorous
statements about the soundness of ZKPs. In the end, no matter what you
call it, it must convince you. 

Better, but still short of the discussion I'd like, is that found in 
"The Ongoing Value of Proof"
Gila Hanna
http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~ghanna/pme96prf.html

which shows an understanding of what ZKPs are, but regretfully limits
itself only to a brief comment that 

"..the most significant feature of the zero-knowledge method is that it is
entirely at odds with the traditional view of proof as a demonstration
open to inspection. This clearly thwarts the exchange of opinion among
mathematicians by which a proof has traditionally come to be accepted."

I wish the author had commented more, because as it stands I do *not*
think that it is so clear that a ZKP is "entirely at odds" with the
traditional view of proof. The interaction in a ZKP is certainly a
"demonstration," and every round is open to inspection. Perhaps you could
argue that the commitments used in ZKPs create a part of a ZKP "not open
to inspection," but the commitment values and decommits certainly are open
to inspection, so how far can you push this?

If you're familiar with Wittgenstein's "say vs. show" distinction, this is
how I might put it as a rough guide -- a ZKP's transcript is simulable,
therefore "says nothing," but the interaction "shows" the truth of a
proposition. (To some bounded probability of error.) 

Does anyone know of other works which comment on ZKPs from standpoints in
philosophy? (or otherwise outside the usual standpoint of trying to
develop new technical results about ZKPs?)

Thanks, 
-David 




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Mon Jan 29 03:34:21 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 03:34:21 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C76@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From: contact at 1000bosses.com (Wendell Wong)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:06:27 -0180
Subject: Rejuvenate your body to highest levels
Message-ID: <200609152034.k8FKY63a011754@proton.jfet.org>

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soon!don't receive more
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From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Mon Jan 29 03:51:11 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 06:51:11 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4430D@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan 29 07:47:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:47:35 -0500
Subject: Ashcroft's replies to questions about Carnivore, MS antitrust
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101282339230.25275-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 11:40:31PM -0800
References: <20010128231237.A1962@cluebot.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101282339230.25275-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010129104735.A7713@cluebot.com>


Again, I seem to be unclear in my use of language, or I'm being
misread.

I expect someone who wants to be the top le official to act with dignity.

I predict, however, they will not.

-Declan



On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 11:40:31PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >But what's good politics is not necessarily what's right, as is true
> >in this case. If the nation's top l.e. officer is asked about what
> >rights Americans should have under the law, I don't expect him
> >to hedge or quibble or made nice-nice noises to please the Democrats.
> 
> This may be a litmus test for cynicism.  I expect him to do exactly 
> that; I just wish he would not.
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 
> 




From been73 at wickedspeed.net  Mon Jan 29 08:31:48 2001
From: been73 at wickedspeed.net (been73 at wickedspeed.net)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:31:48 -0500
Subject: I LOVE YOU AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE!!!!!!
Message-ID: <5lp51jrxktdh0pt18t.kl6v0x2@mx20.wickedspeed.net>

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From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jan 29 11:47:49 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:47:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Captain Crunch
In-Reply-To: <v04220802b69b7293705f@[198.4.94.244]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101291142480.30886-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

>  From Outlaw to Consultant
> 
> January 29, 2001
> 
> By JOHN MARKOFF
> 
> Widely known as Captain Crunch, the notorious &quot;phone
> phreak&quot; hacker John T. Draper is starting an Internet security
> software and consulting firm aimed at protecting the online
> property of corporations.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/technology/29CAP.html?pagewanted=3?e 
> x=981794759&ei=1&en=d1a454985b392f0d

Considering that John Draper is one of the most bizzare and annoying
people I have ever met, I hope he has someone else to do the P.R. work.

The last time I talked to John (about 1995) he was a burn-out case who
could barely operate his Mac and was living on the streets. I am wondering
if someone is using him as a figurehead to do business under a well known
name.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan 29 11:55:52 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:55:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Captain Crunch
In-Reply-To: <v04220802b69b7293705f@[198.4.94.244]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101291152450.21925-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/technology/29CAP.html?pagewanted=3?e 
>x=981794759&ei=1&en=d1a454985b392f0d
>
>Regards,  Matt-


Let us know when somebody who doesn't require a name and password 
carries the story.


		Boycotting all sites that require a login
		For no useful reason,

				Bear





From invite at eviplist.com  Mon Jan 29 10:14:21 2001
From: invite at eviplist.com (eVIPlist.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:14:21 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <E14NIpo-0002iK-00@smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>

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From atek3 at gmx.net  Mon Jan 29 13:20:56 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:20:56 -0800
Subject: what is up with the virus asshole
Message-ID: <004801c08a39$6273d060$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

why is HAHAHA sending the same virus over and over to the list?

atek
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From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jan 29 13:45:13 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:45:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: what is up with the virus asshole
In-Reply-To: <004801c08a39$6273d060$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101291341180.31258-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, atek3 wrote:

> why is HAHAHA sending the same virus over and over to the list?

it is different people each time.

That virus replicates by sending itself out to everyone in a victim's
Outlook address book.  It forges the "From:" address to
"HaHaHa at sexyfun.net".

It is a pain, but nothing can be done until the underlying problem is
resolved in Outlook.  (And that won't happen any time soon. Microsoft has
absolved themselves of all blame in regards to macro viruses.)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Jan 29 11:19:02 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:19:02 -0500
Subject: Captain Crunch
Message-ID: <v04220802b69b7293705f@[198.4.94.244]>


 From Outlaw to Consultant

January 29, 2001

By JOHN MARKOFF

Widely known as Captain Crunch, the notorious &quot;phone
phreak&quot; hacker John T. Draper is starting an Internet security
software and consulting firm aimed at protecting the online
property of corporations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/technology/29CAP.html?pagewanted=3?e 
x=981794759&ei=1&en=d1a454985b392f0d

Regards,  Matt-

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/
**************************************************************************




From carskar at netsolve.net  Mon Jan 29 12:37:47 2001
From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:37:47 -0600
Subject: Captain Crunch
Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74F9@cobra.netsolve.net>

Surely you aren't suggesting that Mr. Draper is qualified to consult on
issues regarding hygiene? Have you met the man?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Me [mailto:commerce at home.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 2:19 PM
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Captain Crunch
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew Gaylor" <freematt at coil.com>
> >Widely known as Captain Crunch, the notorious "phone
> >phreak" hacker John T. Draper is starting an Internet security
> >software and consulting firm aimed at protecting the online
> >property of corporations.
> 
> I guess there is no market in being a personal hygene consultant.
> 
> Odd, though, I would have thought this guy's level of hax0r
> technical skill would have made him more suited to being a music
> teacher than a security advisor.
> 
> 
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From carskar at netsolve.net  Mon Jan 29 12:44:47 2001
From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:44:47 -0600
Subject: Captain Crunch
Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C74FA@cobra.netsolve.net>

Oh, come on. The article was written by Markoff. I am more inclined to take
tea leaf readings seriously than Markoff's scribblings. 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Olsen [mailto:alan at clueserver.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 1:48 PM
> To: Matthew Gaylor
> Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: Re: Captain Crunch
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> 
> >  From Outlaw to Consultant
> > 
> > January 29, 2001
> > 
> > By JOHN MARKOFF
> > 
> > Widely known as Captain Crunch, the notorious &quot;phone
> > phreak&quot; hacker John T. Draper is starting an Internet security
> > software and consulting firm aimed at protecting the online
> > property of corporations.
> > 
> > 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/technology/29CAP.html?pagewa
nted=3?e 
> x=981794759&ei=1&en=d1a454985b392f0d

Considering that John Draper is one of the most bizzare and annoying
people I have ever met, I hope he has someone else to do the P.R. work.

The last time I talked to John (about 1995) he was a burn-out case who
could barely operate his Mac and was living on the streets. I am wondering
if someone is using him as a figurehead to do business under a well known
name.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
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From treetrunk at e247.com  Mon Jan 29 12:06:28 2001
From: treetrunk at e247.com (treetrunk at e247.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:06:28 -0500
Subject: ADV: ===>> FREE 1 yr. USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-200+
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Message-ID: <B69B3774.13068A3@[216.179.3.187]>


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overseas, the only charge on the freebie would be for the FPH (foreign
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Their president has been in the magazine subscription business since 1973
and they are very customer-service oriented.   They will even help you with
address changes on your magazines, even if you move from one country to
another country.   They have thousands of happy customers in over 59
countries.

Their price guarantee is very simple:       they guarantee that their
subscription prices are the lowest available and they will BEAT any
legitimate, verifiable offer before you pay them or match it afterwards, by
refunding you the difference in price PLUS the cost of the postage stamp
you would use sending in the special offer to them, even 6 months after you
pay them, as long as it was current at the time of your offer.    Does that
sound fair?       Wouldn't it be great if everything you bought came with
that price guarantee?  

Sometimes they are less than half of the next best deal out there,
sometimes just a little cheaper, but always you get the lowest rates
without having to shop around.     With 1,100+ titles on their list, they
would like to think that they have also the best selection around!

Within the USA, for their USA customers, they are cheaper than all their
competitors and even the publishers themselves.  This is their price
guarantee.         The 1 yr. freebie that you get with your first order is
completely free!   

Overseas, (even after you factor in the cost of the FPH (foreign postage &
handling) and the conversion from USA Dollars to your currency), on the
average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half of what the
newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines.  On some titles they
are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge.  They are also
the cheapest subscription source for delivery overseas, including directly
from the publishers themselves!   Some publishers don't even offer
subscriptions overseas.........but overseas subscriptions are this
company's specialty!  They feel that magazines should not be a luxury
overseas.   In the USA, people buy magazines and then toss them after
reading them for just a few minutes or hours.  They are so cheap in the
USA!   Well, this company would like to make it the same way for their
overseas customers.  They are also cheaper than all their competitors in
the USA and overseas, including the publishers themselves!   It is also
*highly unlikely* you will find any of their USA competitors calling you
overseas, in order to offer that personal touch, just to sell you a couple
of magazines!  But that is what this company specializes in and loves
doing!     Around one-half their business comes from overseas, so they are
very patient with new customers who only speak limited English as a 2nd
language.    Subscription prices quoted for overseas consist of the
subscription price, plus the FPH.   You add the two together and that is
your total cost.   The exception is the 1 yr. freebie you get with your
first order.   On that title, you pay *only* the FPH for the 1 yr. term.

Their prices are so cheap because when you deal with them, you cut-out all
the middlemen.


HERE IS HOW YOU CAN GET MORE INFO AND GET STARTED WITH THEM:

Simply email, fax or smail back to us the reply form listed at the top of
this message.   We will then forward your form on to the subscription
agency.  They will then email their "big and juicy" catalogue to you, in
whichever of the two formats you chose.   The catalogue is FREE and makes
for hours of fascinating reading, on its own. It includes the complete list
of freebies, a complete list of all the titles they sell, as well as
detailed descriptions on most of the titles, along with lists of titles by
category of interest and their terms of sale.    

They will then give you a friendly, no-pressure, no obligation, 5-minute
call to go over how they work and to answer any questions that you might
have, as well as give you up-to-the minute price quotes on any titles you
might be considering.     They will call you in whatever country you live
in, taking the time difference into account.        As they like to
emphasize the personal touch they give to each new customer, all first-time
orders can only be done via phone, so they can answer all your questions
completely and personally.   Once you have placed your first order via
phone, you will be able to place future orders and make inquiries on your
account, get price quotes, etc., all via email, if that is most convenient
for you.

Within the USA, they accept payment via check over the phone, Mastercard,
Visa, American Express, Diner's Club and Carte Blanche.    Overseas, they
accept Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Diner's Club and Carte Blanche,
even if your credit card is a local one in local currency (that most
merchants in the USA would not normally be willing to accept).

That's our introduction of our client that we represent.   We hope that we
have piqued your interest and that you will take the next step to get their
free catalogue!   Thank you for your time and interest.

--
Tempting Tear-Outs.
For more info on marketing & consulting rates, please write us on your
company letterhead, w/business card, via smail to:   Tempting Tear-Outs,
PMB 200, 3835 Richmond Ave., Staten Island NY  10312-3828, USA.     

This email message has been sent to you by:  Tempting Tear-Outs, PMB 200,
3835 Richmond Ave., Staten Island NY  10312-3828, USA.




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Jan 29 12:10:34 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:10:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: John Ashcroft's hard erect nipples
Message-ID: <200101292010.PAA08615@www4.aa.psiweb.com>


http://computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47_STO57039,00.html
#    
#    Brit accuses U.S. of snooping
#    
#    Europe admits it too taps corporate nets
#    
#    BY DAN VERTON (January 29, 2001) The European Parliament received 
#    a detailed report last week that contains evidence of a 10-year 
#    effort by the U.S. government to use its intelligence technology 
#    to help U.S. companies win commercial contracts. The report was 
#    by a British journalist hired by the European Parliament to 
#    investigate a global electronic eavesdropping network.
#    
#    The so-called Echelon network is run by an alliance among the 
#    U.S., the U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The report 
#    came as a panel of experts testified in Europe last week that 
#    the U.S. isn't the only country plucking sensitive corporate 
#    and economic data from the Internet and airwaves.
#    
#    "I referred many times [in the report] to the fact that European 
#    countries ran satellite [signal intelligence] systems to collect 
#    intelligence," Duncan Campbell, the author of the report, told 
#    Computerworld.
#    
#    France and Germany are also known to employ modern technologies 
#    designed to collect economic intelligence that would help firms 
#    in those countries. Europeans are "open-minded and readily accept 
#    that our companies and governments - like [the U.S.]" spy, bribe 
#    and cheat on occasions, Campbell said. "The European inquiry 
#    is going ahead on that basis."
#    
#    In his study, Campbell accused Lexington, Mass.-based Raytheon 
#    Co. of receiving information from Echelon that allowed it to 
#    outbid two French firms in 1994 for a $1.4 billion contract with 
#    the Brazilian government for a system to monitor any environmental 
#    changes in the rain forests there. A Raytheon official called 
#    the charges groundless.
#    
#    "Raytheon won the [contract] because it had the best technical 
#    solution and the lowest price and best financial proposal," a 
#    company spokesman said.
#    
#    Neil MacCormick, a vice chairman of the European Parliament's 
#    special commission on Echelon, called Campbell's testimony sober 
#    and balanced. The use of Echelon, particularly its Advocacy 
#    Center, which helps U.S. businesses overcome unfair trading 
#    practices, is well documented, said MacCormick.
#    
#    "It therefore follows that some of the output of Echelon is used 
#    in contexts of economic intelligence affecting the interests 
#    of non-U.S. businesses," he said.
#    
#    "Many European nations should look into the mirror before 
#    complaining about economic espionage by other nations," said 
#    Cees Wiebes, a professor at the University of Amsterdam who 
#    testified last week before the parliament of the Netherlands.
#    
#    According to Wiebes, many Dutch multinationals - including Philips 
#    Electronics NV and Royal Dutch/Shell Group - have received 
#    intelligence gathered by the Dutch equivalent of the U.S. National 
#    Security Agency (NSA) to support construction projects at airports 
#    and seaports.
#    
#    But U.S. intelligence officials insisted that Echelon isn't used 
#    to covertly assist U.S. companies in their efforts to win 
#    contracts around the world. They said Echelon is used to uncover 
#    international fraud schemes, criminal activity and terrorist 
#    groups.
#    
#    A spokesman for the NSA, which manages the Echelon network, said 
#    the agency operates in strict accordance with U.S. laws that 
#    prohibit the agency from providing "intelligence information 
#    to private firms for their economic advantage."
#    
#    A former CIA official familiar with NSA operations who spoke 
#    on the condition of anonymity said he finds the claims of 
#    assistance to U.S. firms by the NSA hard to believe - except 
#    in cases involving specific military technologies. Campbell and 
#    the European Union are "overplaying the economic espionage aspect 
#    of Echelon," he said.
#    
#    Executives in the U.S. also discounted claims made during a 
#    European Parliament hearing last November that U.S.-produced 
#    software such as Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating system 
#    contains back doors that support Echelon activities.
#    
#    Steve Lipner, manager of Microsoft's Security Response Center, 
#    said the best example of Microsoft's position on Echelon and 
#    of not allowing back doors to be implanted in its software is 
#    evident in its opposition to legislation that would require 
#    companies to share encryption keys with federal law enforcement.





From sorrin at lockstar.com  Mon Jan 29 12:17:15 2001
From: sorrin at lockstar.com (Steve Orrin)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:17:15 -0500
Subject: Captain Crunch
Message-ID: <002d01c08a30$96de0590$0300000a@lithium.lockstar>


This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by sorrin at lockstar.com.



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>From Outlaw to Consultant

January 29, 2001

By JOHN MARKOFF

MENLO PARK, Calif.  There are many legendary figures here in Silicon
Valley. There are men like Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak, Bill
Hewlett and . There are stories of brilliance and innovation and
avarice.

But there may be no tale so poignant as that of John T. Draper,
the mythical "phone phreak" who became a national figure in 1971
after being one of the first to discover that a toy whistle in the
Cap'n Crunch cereal box could trick the telephone network into
giving free telephone calls.

Widely known as Captain Crunch, Mr. Draper has had a remarkable
career since then. He was arrested and sent to prison for his
telephone exploits several times and graduated from phones to
computers.

He did the early design from a jail cell for EasyWriter, the word
processing program that came with the first I.B.M. PC in 1981.

In the intervening decades he was for a while a millionaire who
owned a house in Hawaii. But he has also lost jobs and been
homeless more than once. He hacked into computer networks, using
some of the same skills he honed on the telephone system. His back
was permanently injured in a prison beating in Pennsylvania. He was
robbed on a Texas highway where he lost a notebook computer
containing the only copy of his autobiography. For years he
wandered the world working where he could as a high-tech hobo 
including the Goa coast in India, where in 1999 he spent six months
coding Web sites for an Indian entrepreneur.

Throughout all of his travels and travails, however, Mr. Draper
has maintained an almost childlike sense of optimism, and now he is
trying to start over.

With a small group of partners  and perhaps a little late to the
game  Mr. Draper is seeking to take part in the Internet boom. In
a venture that will no doubt raise concerns for some, he and his
confederates have set up an Internet security software and
consulting firm, aimed at protecting the online property of
corporations.

The company, which has been self- financed but is not soliciting
venture capital, is called ShopIP. Mr. Draper, 57, describes
himself as a "white-hat hacker" these days and sees his new venture
as his way of repaying society for his misadventures three decades
ago.

Mr. Draper vows that his hacking days are behind him. In the last
year, he says, he has thrown himself into the study of computer
security techniques with the same passion with which he once
studied the intricacies of the nation's phone system.

"My eyes were opened, and this has been a real change in direction
in my life," he said in an interview at a coffee house here, just a
mile from the telephone booth where a government informer once
cornered him for his antics with a so-called blue box  an
electronic device that could generate the tones necessary for
commanding the phone network. "It made me realize that I could pay
back society for my deeds in the past," he added.

After starting to develop a type of network-security software
program known as a fire wall in 1999, Mr. Draper met a young
businessman, Daniel Baggett, now 29, who had known the older man by
reputation and who now takes a sheltering stance toward him.

"Part of my mission is to protect Crunch; I respect him," Mr.
Baggett said. "He played a huge role in the early days of the
personal computer industry, and it's a crime he hasn't been able to
reap the rewards."

And yet, the issue of white-hat vs. black-hat hackers has long
been a thorny ethical debate in the computer security world, where
some people have argued that there is no room for outlaws 
reformed or otherwise. Others respond that the people who can best
protect network computer systems are those with the most experience
at testing their weaknesses.

"Whether black hats can become white hats is not a black-and-white
question," said Peter Neumann, a computer security expert at SRI
International, a research firm here. "In general, there are quite a
few black hats who have gone straight and become very effective.
But the simplistic idea that hiring overtly black-hat folks will
increase your security is clearly a myth."

Mr. Draper's past was largely defined by a widely read article by
Ron Rosenbaum, "Secrets of the Little Blue Box," which appeared in
the October 1971 issue of Esquire.

The article described the activities of a small group of telephone
"hobbyists," including Mr. Draper, who had learned how to control
and misuse the nation's telephone network.

In an essay in The New York Observer this month, Mr. Rosenbaum
wrote that Captain Crunch became an American antihero and a
cultural icon in the intervening years.

Two young men who devoured the 1971 article were Steven Jobs and
Stephen Wozniak. At the time Mr. Wozniak was a student at the
University of California at Berkeley. He and Mr. Jobs spent several
weeks frantically searching for Mr. Draper, who then lived in the
San Jose area.

After they contacted him, Mr. Draper arrived at Mr. Wozniak's dorm
room. Mr. Jobs recalls an outlandish character with moustache and
horn- rim glasses who walked in and announced with a flourish, "It
is I."

Mr. Draper tutored Mr. Wozniak and Mr. Jobs in the art of
programming their own blue boxes, capable of gaining free  and
illegal  access to the phone network. The two novice entrepreneurs
sold the blue boxes door-to-door on the Berkeley campus, several
years before they founded Apple Computer.

Things turned out less favorably for Mr. Draper. After the Esquire
article he became a target of the F.B.I. and in 1972 was arrested
and spent a short while in jail before being sentenced to five
years probation.

Around this time he discovered Call Computer, a tiny company in
Mountain View, Calif., that provided computer time-sharing
services. Mr. Draper was still a student at a local community
college, but the owner of Call Computer discovered that Mr. Draper
had a flair for programming and offered him a job. Later, the
programming tools Mr. Draper had developed while working at Call
Computer were widely used by many of the first personal computer
designers.

And while he did not entirely end his phone activities, he became
a regular at the potluck dinners at the People's Computer Company,
a counterculture educational organization in Menlo Park dedicated
to making computers widely available.

Mr. Draper's new passion was computing, but he was a phone- phreak
recidivist. In fact, it was at a pay phone across the street from
the People's Computer office near here where a government informer
caught him in the act of telephone fraud.

This time, Mr. Draper went to prison, spending October 1976 to
February 1977 at the federal prison in Lompoc, Calif. For the final
portion of his sentence he was in a work- release program back in
the San Francisco Bay Area, where he began developing his
EasyWriter program.

During the day, he recalled, he would write the code. Then, at
night, after returning to jail, he would study the paper list of
programming commands, looking for errors. "It was an ideal
situation," he said. "It forced me to get off the computer and
think and debug my program."

Shortly after leaving prison, Mr. Draper was hired by Apple
Computer, at a time when the company had only 15 employees. He
developed a telephone-dialing card for the original Apple II
computer. But Apple never marketed it for fear that it could be
used as a powerful computer-controlled blue box.

In an online posting a number of years ago Mr. Draper described
the antics during Apple's early period, which may help explain the
company's hesitation to put his modem on the market. "I can
remember Woz programming it to repeatedly call Steve Jobs's
parents' phone over and over again (in those days, there were very
few answering machines). I got blamed for what Woz did."

He also was blamed, by federal authorities, for a parole violation
later that year for associating with known phone phreaks, and was
sent to a federal penitentiary in Pennsylvania. There, as Mr.
Draper recalls the episode, a fellow inmate asked for instructions
on hacking into the telephone network. Suspecting the man to be an
informer, he gave him bogus information. Unfortunately, when the
inmate could not get the free phone calls he was expecting, he beat
up Mr. Draper, who still has several damaged vertebrae from the
run-in.

Despite his prison stints, Mr. Draper enjoyed an unaccustomed
affluence in the early 80's, after Easy- Writer hit it big on the
early I.B.M. PC's. But his life lacked the structure and discipline
to make his comfort last.

He drifted in and out of jobs, the most promising one with Ted
Nelson, a social scientist and software designer at Autodesk, in
Sausalito, Calif. Mr. Nelson was trying to perfect his hypertext
software, a forerunner of the World Wide Web.

But all too soon, Mr. Draper lost his job. He spent the mid-1990's
kicking about, winding up in San Diego in September 1996. There, he
lived in an artists' collective known as the Loft, which had a
high-speed Internet connection.

When the Loft fell apart, Mr. Draper was homeless. He spent time
in Tijuana, then decided to move to Florida, where he had heard of
an opportunity to work in Web-site development. It was on the road
to Florida, at a roadside rest area in Texas, that the manuscript
for his autobiography which he had worked on for four years was
stolen from his car as he slept.

But things started looking up in Florida, where he showed a
natural aptitude as a Web programmer and his work came to the
attention of an Indian businessman. That contact resulted in Mr.
Draper's spending six months on the Goa coast, designing Web pages
for companies there that were anxious to be on the Internet.

After returning from India in late 1999, Mr. Draper settled in
Fremont, across the San Francisco Bay from Palo Alto. Sharing a
cramped apartment with several friends, he began work on his
software company.

Today, Mr. Draper still lives a largely hand-to-mouth existence.
Known for his manic intensity and insistent curiosity, he has the
distinction of being one of the few people to lose his invitation
to the Hackers Conference, the annual gathering of the pioneers of
the personal computing industry, where social graces are not
usually a criterion for admission.

But there are those who have loyally stuck by Mr. Draper 
including Mr. Wozniak, who gave him an Apple Macintosh PowerBook
for Christmas.

For his part, Mr. Draper is enthusiastic about his new venture and
conveys a true believer's faith in the strength of his security
software, which ShopIP plans to release to a group of test
customers next month.

Yet he acknowledged the difficulties of living down the Captain
Crunch legend. "I'm not a bad guy," he said. "But I'm being treated
like a fox trying to guard the hen house."




http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/technology/29CAP.html?ex=981799181&ei=1&en
=5647f14cb6ae2919

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Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company







From commerce at home.com  Mon Jan 29 12:18:45 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:18:45 -0500
Subject: Captain Crunch
References: <v04220802b69b7293705f@[198.4.94.244]>
Message-ID: <010901c08a30$b6083b70$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Gaylor" <freematt at coil.com>
>Widely known as Captain Crunch, the notorious "phone
>phreak" hacker John T. Draper is starting an Internet security
>software and consulting firm aimed at protecting the online
>property of corporations.

I guess there is no market in being a personal hygene consultant.

Odd, though, I would have thought this guy's level of hax0r
technical skill would have made him more suited to being a music
teacher than a security advisor.





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Jan 29 08:13:40 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:13:40 +0000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010126150152.28928S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A7596B4.5D6CCC88@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote:
 
> > from the late 60s isn't punk but it sounds like punk) and of course
> > Hawkwind (honestly, just listen to the basslines). If there is a
> 
> So, you're the one who stole my Orgone Accumulator? You know they started
> out as a front band for a sci-fi writer?

("sci-fi"? what is this "sci-fi"? We know of no "sci-fi"?)

If you mean Michael Moorcock I think they were fans of his and he wrote
some lyrics for them & later on he did go on stage with them now and
again but I don't think it's true to say they *started* that way or that
they were just a "front band" for him.  (Unlike the short-lived and
semi-fictional Deep Fix, which may have included a lot of Hawkwind
members but was Moorcock's band)

Mike Moorcock's living in Texas now. 

And writing cowboy stories.

Well, they are as much like cowboy stories as some of the his other
stuff was like sf

Some reviews at: http://sfsite.com/~silverag/texas.html

And a not-at-all spellchecked interview with Colin Greenland at:
http://freespace.virgin.net/g.hurry/mm_int.htm

Michael Moorcock:  The part of Texas I'm moving to is more like
Califonia, its full of old hippies and mad computer people. In fact our
entire estate is run by  old hippies. All of them are lunitics, sort of
rolling up joints and telling you how they dug New Worlds in the 60s. I
mean its amazing to  me. I find the people who are most interested -
they got it from the SF and theyre trying to make it real thats what
interests me. Theres a story that the Americans never quite got the
space ship they wanted right because they were trying to make it look
like a  Buck Rogers space ship. Which I believe because thats how a
space ship should look.

Colin Greenland:   So science fiction does predict the future?

Michael Moorcock:  No, it creates it which is slightly different. Its
full of looney SF fans. When I went up to see 2001, 2001 ways to fall
asleap!, and the NASA people were out there and this is probably what
was wrong with the film - the NASA people were out there and they were
deeply  interested in the science, as if they would really land a space
ship on Jupiter. I cant do with all that.

PSFG :  In the early days you used to do a lot of stuff with certain
bands, like Hawkwind and Blue Oyster Cult. How did that come about?

Michael Moorcock:  It just happened

PSFG :  So did they like approach you or did you go there or what?

Michael Moorcock: Hawkwind based their title on the Hawkmoon books that
was the start of it and I didnt meet them for the first few months. I
lived in Ladbrook Grove, everything happened in Ladbrook Grove in the
sixties and seventies. I mean it was just nice and I happened to live in
Ladbrook Grove and it all happened around me. You couldnt actually move
for bloody Rock and Roll bands.


Ken Brown




From sparky at suba.com  Mon Jan 29 14:43:40 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:43:40 -0600
Subject: what is up with the virus asshole
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101291341180.31258-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <004801c08a39$6273d060$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3A759DBC.13631.19B0FD2@localhost>


This virus is generated by alt.comp.virus too (I think that's the 
correct list, haven't looked at it in a while). From what I've heard, 
the virus is almost impossible to get off the list as it's programmed 
to repost itself, and also update itself.

Is it possible that cypherpunks is on alt.comp.virus?

sparky

On 29 Jan 2001, at 13:45, Alan Olsen wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, atek3 wrote:
> 
> > why is HAHAHA sending the same virus over and over to the list?
> 
> it is different people each time.
> 
> That virus replicates by sending itself out to everyone in a victim's
> Outlook address book.  It forges the "From:" address to
> "HaHaHa at sexyfun.net".
> 
> It is a pain, but nothing can be done until the underlying problem is
> resolved in Outlook.  (And that won't happen any time soon. Microsoft
> has absolved themselves of all blame in regards to macro viruses.)
> 
> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to
> reply Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and
> del keys.
>     "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
> 
> 





From events at match.com  Mon Jan 29 15:27:38 2001
From: events at match.com (events at match.com)
Date: 29 Jan 2001 17:27:38 -0600
Subject: Match.com wine tasting
Message-ID: <0709a3827231d11MASSMAIL1@onlymail4.oneandonly.com>


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To RSVP and get more details on this event, click on the link below:
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From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Jan 29 10:02:47 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:02:47 -0000
Subject: Os seus filmes preferidos
Message-ID: <0b8eb4702181d11WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/promo_dvd.htm> . 
Os seus filmes preferidos
Esta semana a giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/>
propõe-lhe 20 dos melhores filmes a um preço muito especial. 

Estas são algumas das nossas sugestões. 
007 - O Mundo não Chega - DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&productId=4956> 

O Caso de Thomas Crown - DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&productId=4394> 
O Último Tango em Paris - DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&productId=5384> 
Estado de Sítio - DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&productId=5355> 
Sol Nascente - DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&productId=5357> 
Vulcão - DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&productId=4412> 
 
Aproveitamos também para o relembrar que a nossa categoria de Filmes
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/BooksMusicAndVideos/Main.asp?Chann
elId=3&CategoryId=42&SubCategoryId=0>  foi reformulada de forma a que
consiga, mais facilmente escolher o filme que deseja. A partir de agora
pode fazer a sua busca nas 4 seguintes categorias:
Novidades DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/BooksMusicAndVideos/Main.asp?Chann
elId=3&CategoryId=42&SubCategoryId=84> 
Novidades VHS
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/BooksMusicAndVideos/Main.asp?Chann
elId=3&CategoryId=42&SubCategoryId=85> 
DVD
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/BooksMusicAndVideos/Main.asp?Chann
elId=3&CategoryId=42&SubCategoryId=86> 
VHS
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/BooksMusicAndVideos/Main.asp?Chann
elId=3&CategoryId=42&SubCategoryId=87>  
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição do seu
registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
 
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From wk1250 at korea.com  Mon Jan 29 01:09:41 2001
From: wk1250 at korea.com (wk1250)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:09:41 +0900
Subject: inquiry
Message-ID: <000a01c089d3$370a4aa0$4e22bad3@seocho.thrunet.com>

Attn: Import Manager or To whom may it concern
Fm: WK Choi
E-Mail: wk1250 at korea.com

Dear Sir,

I would like to introduce myself to you. I am a free-lancer and working fo collecting  stock apparels from alll nation wide. And then I try to export to other country now.
I am asking you that I want to enter into business with you for the mutual benefit.
Because, I could buy cheap price with good quality and you could make good merit of
benefit for those goods.
Also alll stock goods should be pay by cash but L/C basis is no problem to settle up for
payment matter.

If you agree, We could try to find above goods for every weekly or monthly basis when you need. If you are interesting of my proposal, please give us your reply by returm e-mail asap.

We am looking forward to hearing from you soon. We remain in the meantime.
regards,

WK Choi
Phone: 822-521-0738
Fax: 822-881-6141
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 29 16:24:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:24:57 -0600
Subject: NEWS - Societal Collapse Caused By Climate Change
Message-ID: <3A7609D9.A976BBF3@ssz.com>


http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010027175151data_trunc_sys.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM  Mon Jan 29 18:44:13 2001
From: INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM (INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:44:13
Subject: Opportunity
Message-ID: <200101300147.RAA29789@cyberpass.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 29 19:05:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:05:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <3A7596B4.5D6CCC88@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010129205932.9448O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> If you mean Michael Moorcock I think they were fans of his and he wrote
> some lyrics for them & later on he did go on stage with them now and
> again but I don't think it's true to say they *started* that way or that
> they were just a "front band" for him.  (Unlike the short-lived and
> semi-fictional Deep Fix, which may have included a lot of Hawkwind
> members but was Moorcock's band)

In Michaels own words...

http://www.thing.de/projekte/future/moorcin.htm

(or go to google using 'hawkwind michael moorcock' and take 2nd link)

The only book of his I ever read was the Hawkwind one. It was ok if you
were stoned enough :)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From expr18 at uole.com  Mon Jan 29 21:25:03 2001
From: expr18 at uole.com (expr18 at uole.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:25:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fresh Quality Mortgage Leads
Message-ID: <200101300525.VAA24088@toad.com>



Deal directly with the source..... No middleman!

We can offer you fresh pre-qualified mortgage leads on a daily basis.

Our quality mortgage leads are generated daily from homeowners interested in second mortgages,
refinancing, debt consolidation, home improvement loans, etc.

You can now purchase leads based on your criteria and requirements.

All leads are within one business day old. Ten leads per week is our minimum.

Our supply is limited. to a first come first served bases.

Please email us your name and phone number so we can contact you.

email: expr19 at uole.com

mailto:expr19 at uole.com?subject=Fresh Mortgage Leads


Thank you,



Internet Mortgage Leads Service

Reply with delete-mort in the subject to be excluded from further communication.




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Mon Jan 29 21:34:41 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:34:41 -0800
Subject: Antigen found JS/Kak@m.Worm virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C78@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found Unknown infected with JS/Kak at m.Worm virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: hi", was
sent from David Arguelles  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Mon Jan 29 03:17:49 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:47:49 +1030
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <11174900097002@203.58.175.182>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan 29 20:10:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:10:20 -0600
Subject: Consultants Design Showcase - 900MHz @ 1M bit
Message-ID: <3A763EAC.93BA0D8F@ssz.com>


http://www.maxim-ic.com/showcase_2463.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Jan 29 23:58:37 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:58:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: hi
In-Reply-To: <01cf01c08a83$624b1310$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101292355020.849-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Me wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Arguelles" <davida at bevisco.com.au>
> >i have a virus called 'W32/Hybris-B'  how do i get it
> >off my computer?
> 
> You also have a bug called Kakworm.
> 
> Head to Symantec to get a program to fix this problem, and then
> to Microsoft to get a patch for Outlook to block the horrible
> evil gaping security hole that this nasty proggy came in through.

I thought that involved removing Outlook.  (Microsoft has pretty much
absolved themselves of any responsibility for the scripting hols that
allow this kind of crap.  I don't think that they ever fixed the preview
mode so that it would auto-run this kind of virus if you just look at a
message, for example.)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan 30 00:23:51 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:23:51 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <3A716AE3.D868B076@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <3A716AE3.D868B076@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p04320409b69c2a79cc47@[10.1.1.42]>



>>  Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
>>  perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
>>  the society born before them.
>
>That more or less happens these days - there is a sort of lost
>generation born between the late 1950s & about 1970 who  managed to be
>the first age cohort in 200 years who were poorer than their parents, at
>least in Britain (where else did punk rock come from?)

	Long Island.

	The Ramones.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan 30 00:26:46 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:26:46 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <3A718F85.EE0BD566@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010126072006.28928L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <3A718F85.EE0BD566@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p0432040ab69c2aece730@[10.1.1.42]>



>And I could also argue that the musical roots of that kind of British
>"punk" didn't include those guys so much as the noisy, thrashy, stomping
>heavy bands of the early 1970s (people like Sweet & Slade who never got

	Sweet made it here. As did Slade.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Mon Jan 29 21:45:15 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:45:15 -0500
Subject: Antigen found Mid/Kakworm virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4430F@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found Unknown infected with Mid/Kakworm virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: hi", was
sent from David Arguelles  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From commerce at home.com  Mon Jan 29 22:10:38 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:10:38 -0500
Subject: hi
References: <00e101c08a7e$7f50fba0$0c00000a@bevisco.com.au>
Message-ID: <01cf01c08a83$624b1310$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Arguelles" <davida at bevisco.com.au>
>i have a virus called 'W32/Hybris-B'  how do i get it
>off my computer?

You also have a bug called Kakworm.

Head to Symantec to get a program to fix this problem, and then
to Microsoft to get a patch for Outlook to block the horrible
evil gaping security hole that this nasty proggy came in through.





From auto129994 at hushmail.com  Mon Jan 29 22:16:43 2001
From: auto129994 at hushmail.com (auto129994 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:16:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: hi (This e-mail is virus-free!)
Message-ID: <200101300621.WAA03610@user7.hushmail.com>

"David Arguelles" <davida at bevisco.com.au> wrote in a virus-infected message:

[snip HTML, ActiveX, Mid/Kakworm, Ebola, and the common cold]

> i have a virus called 'W32/Hybris-B'  how do i get it off my computer?
>
> Help!!!
> Regards David

Hybris is almost impossible to get rid of.  According to the security department 
of Network Affiliates, Inc., a leading vendor of anti-virus software, the 
only known method of removing Hybris is as follows:

 1.)  Unplug your computer
 2.)  Remove all hard disks
 3.)  Douse hard disks with kerosene
 4.)  Ignite with matches or Bic(r) lighter.  Zippos not advised due to 
Flash incompatibility.

After you allow them to cool, your hard disks will once again be safe for 
use.  Don't worry -- this won't damage them; hard disk drives are made with 
heat-resistant aluminum platters, and some more modern ones use ceramic 
technologies.  Note that Hybris uses photoelectric quantum nanoscopy to 
infect all magnetic and optical media within approximately 20 feet of the 
infected computer; you should include any media such as floppies, CD-ROMs,
 data tapes, and VHS cassettes in the above procedure, and wipe down all 
integrated circuits such as RAM and CPU chips with a chlorine bleach solution. 
 Otherwise, you will be re-infected.

Since Hybris is currently in the process of destroying the entire Internet,
 the U.S. Department of Security (DoS) has decided to close down the Internet 
for cleaning and administration.  This process will involve high-voltage 
shocks to all servers and high-intensity laser pulses over backbone fibers. 
 For your own protection, disconnect from the Internet and do not reconnect 
until you receive an e-mail telling you that it is safe to do so.

I would advise you to check on the CERT advisory regarding this situation,
 but I really do think that you should disconnect immediately.

Hope that this helps.

P.S. -- Was that Snow White and Seven Dwarves program really seeexxxxy?



From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan 30 07:28:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:28:38 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Leader of anti-Semitic church walks out of his kidnapping trial - January 30, 2001
Message-ID: <3A76DDA6.123176F@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/01/30/supremacist.pastor.ap/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan 30 07:31:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:31:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: APM: Crypt::RC4 module (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010130093016.9448W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:13:14 -0600
From: David Bluestein II <dbii at mudpuddle.com>
To: austin-pm at pm.org
Subject: APM: Crypt::RC4 module

Okay-

I've progressed, but aren't understanding something. I tested the 4-line
perl implementation of RC4 algorighm and it was an asymetric cypher (give
it encrypt key and value n and in encrypts, give it decrypt key and n and
it decrypts). Yet the Crypt::RC4 only takes a passphrase, which I gave it
the encrypt key and it decrypts with the encrypt key also.

Does anyone know how to give it the encrypt key and n to encrypt so that
the decrypt key and n works properly? The man page and perldocs for this
module are lacking in that information, I understand the algorithm, but not
how to combine the keyparts to make it work. The one example I found on the
net obviously read the docs and didn't run it, since they used just the
encrypt and decrypt keys, which doesn't work.

Thanks-

David

----------
David H. Bluestein II                         President & Lead Developer
dbii at mudpuddle.com                         ii, inc.

http://www.interaction.net
-        Specializing in Designing Interactive Websites        -
-              and Searchable Internet Databases                   -








From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan 30 09:31:34 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:31:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: hi
In-Reply-To: <00e101c08a7e$7f50fba0$0c00000a@bevisco.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, David Arguelles wrote:

>i have a virus called 'W32/Hybris-B'  how do i get it off my computer?
>
>Help!!!
>Regards David

Before you start, save all the important stuff you're working on. 
But don't save it in any format (such as .doc, .xls, etc) that 
can include executable code.  Just go for plain text or comma-
delimited ascii.  Put that on a floppy disk.  Once you've done 
that: 

1) Run out and buy a Linux distribution.
2) Stick the bootable CD in your hard drive. 
3) turn the machine off and then back on. 
4) follow the prompts.  Answer "Yes" when it asks whether you 
   want to repartition/reformat your hard drive. BE SURE you 
   tell it to use the whole drive.

This will not only get rid of your virii (plural), it will 
make your machine run faster and make it more stable.

PS. You realize that attached to the message you sent was 
another Macrovirus, don't you?

				Bear




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan 30 07:32:34 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:32:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - Leader of anti-Semitic church walks out of his kidnapping trial - January 30, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3A76DDA6.123176F@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010130093124.9448X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Now what I'd like to know is why the lawyers aren't screaming 1st
amendment speech violations...

This pastor or whatever has a right to have his say in court and the court
has a directive to prevent inteference thereof, this should prevent them
as well but it doesn't.

So much for 'equality under the law'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From cecil.estler at ntlworld.com  Tue Jan 30 02:48:20 2001
From: cecil.estler at ntlworld.com (cecil.estler)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:48:20 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c08aaa$2a127520$4a27fe3e@o9t6u6>


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From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 30 07:52:03 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:52:03 -0500
Subject: hi
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101292355020.849-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <004901c08ad4$a0967a50$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Olsen" <alan at clueserver.org>
> I thought that involved removing Outlook.  (Microsoft has
pretty much
> absolved themselves of any responsibility for the scripting
hols that
> allow this kind of crap.  I don't think that they ever fixed
the preview
> mode so that it would auto-run this kind of virus if you just
look at a
> message, for example.)

Microsoft did release a patch for this, which can be found here:

http://www.microsoft.com/TechNet/security/bulletin/ms99-032.asp

When I view his message on my patched machine, Windows pops up a
'You crazy?' dialogue box as the script starts to run.

OTOH, Microsoft can't be trusted too far, so please let me know
if I am sending out a snippet of evil code with this message. :)





From frissell at panix.com  Tue Jan 30 07:58:36 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:58:36 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Leader of anti-Semitic church walks out of
  his kidnapping trial - January 30, 2001
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010130093124.9448X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <3A76DDA6.123176F@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010130105530.052e17d0@popserver.panix.com>


At 09:32 AM 1/30/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>Now what I'd like to know is why the lawyers aren't screaming 1st
>amendment speech violations...
>
>This pastor or whatever has a right to have his say in court and the court
>has a directive to prevent inteference thereof, this should prevent them
>as well but it doesn't.
>
>So much for 'equality under the law'.

Trials are no forums for free speech (unfortunately).  They are scripted 
dramatic presentations and anyone who tries to get too creative will find 
himself held in contempt of court.  You can't even make the legal arguments 
you want.  They have to meet with the approval of the judge.

DCF

----
"I swear by Almighty God that I have not given any cryptographic keys or 
other electronic access devices under my control to any other person or 
entity including government employees." -- Suggested oath from the 
forthcoming paper "Religious Oaths for Computer Security and Digital 
Commerce Applications" by Duncan Frissell, JD and Robert Bader, DD.




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan 30 11:45:43 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301128410.3379-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Me wrote:

>Of course it will be faster and more stable, he will never run a single
>program on it.
>
>I'm sure your message was a joke, but, he won't get it and everyone else first
>heard it years ago.

Not a joke:  I was dead serious.  Windows/Outlook is the preferred 
platform for viruses.  If he wants to run a virus free system, he 
should get a system that is not the preferred platform for viruses.

Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for 
law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system, 
broken security programs that leave unencrypted temp files lying 
around, "encrypted" systems that just XOR the plaintext with a 
short repeating key, etc ad nauseam.  And this is just the stuff 
that auditors have been able to find without recourse to source 
code. If you want secure systems, get a system that you can read 
the source code for and *see* what the hell is going on -- or *fix* 
it if you find something broken.

Finally, it's really nice to have a comprehensive system of permissions, 
etc -- that way some idiot running zork can't trash out anything that 
the system actually depends on, even if he runs a virus-infected zork.

And let's not forget the "autoregister" feature in Whistler.  Isn't 
it nice that I'll be able to upgrade hardware without buying a new 
operating system?

>Also, if you are running W2K and are suffering regular crashes the problem is
>operator error, not Windows.

>>
bear at bolt~>uptime
11:27am up 46 days, 21:30, 76 users, load average: 0.31, 0.28, 0.16
<<

The last downtime, a month and a half ago, was for a hard drive upgrade.
The one before that was four months prior, and that was for physically 
relocating the machine.  I don't even remember the last time it crashed; 
I don't think it ever has in the five years I've been using it.

			Bear






From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 30 10:05:29 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:05:29 -0500
Subject: hi
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Dillinger" <bear at sonic.net>
>>i have a virus called 'W32/Hybris-B'  how do i get it off my computer?
>1) Run out and buy a Linux distribution.
>This will not only get rid of your virii (plural), it will
>make your machine run faster and make it more stable.

Of course it will be faster and more stable, he will never run a single
program on it.

I'm sure your message was a joke, but, he won't get it and everyone else first
heard it years ago.

Also, if you are running W2K and are suffering regular crashes the problem is
operator error, not Windows.

I have been running it for a bit more than a year, and have never had a box
crash or had to reboot for a problem that wasn't related to electricity.  I
can't say either of those things about a single one of the comps running Linux
here.





From rsw at mit.edu  Tue Jan 30 11:01:26 2001
From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:01:26 -0500
Subject: hi
In-Reply-To: <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem>; from commerce@home.com on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:05:29PM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <20010130140126.A31759@positron.mit.edu>

Me <commerce at home.com> wrote:
> Of course it will be faster and more stable, he will never run a single
> program on it.
> 
> I'm sure your message was a joke, but, he won't get it and everyone else first
> heard it years ago.
> 
> Also, if you are running W2K and are suffering regular crashes the problem is
> operator error, not Windows.
> 
> I have been running it for a bit more than a year, and have never had a box
> crash or had to reboot for a problem that wasn't related to electricity.  I
> can't say either of those things about a single one of the comps running Linux
> here.

#!/usr/bin/perl

$str = "Also, if you are running W2K and are suffering regular crashes the problem
is operator error, not Windows.";

$str =~ s/W2K/Linux/; $str =~ s/Windows/Linux/;

print $str;
exit;

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From pdck at cuba.xs4all.nl  Tue Jan 30 05:51:54 2001
From: pdck at cuba.xs4all.nl (Pdck)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:51:54 +0100
Subject: PrePlay - Hacking Prepaid Phone Cards
Message-ID: <20010130145154.A87964@cuba.xs4all.nl>


Cyperpunks,

In the Netherlands you can buy a so called "Hi PrePay Phone". This is a GSM phone based 
on the prepay-system. In order to upgrade your calling balance, you can do multiple things. 
One of the things you can do is buying a yellow prepay card at one of the numerous stores. 

On this card you find a 15-digit- long number, you need to type in to upgrade your balance. 
We will denote this upgrade-number as U. On the same card you will also find a 11-digit-long 
serial number, which we will denote as S. In front of every serial number you can find a 
letter, which is the same for a batch of serial-numbers. We collected some of these cards and 
put them into a database. 

A Comma Seperated File of this database can be found at 
http://bigdaddy.webcriminals.com/~bastiaan/prepay/getCodesCSV.php3
[amount, batch letter, serial number S,upgrade number U, 
person who entered it into the database, when it was entered]

The obvious relation between U and S is that they both share the same first 6 digits. We will 
call the last 5 digits of S (serial number) Sx, and the last 9 digits of U (upgrade-number) Ux. 
If you put them into a graph, then it looks like a linear graph, but if you look closer you see 
it is not completely linear. 

Graphs can be found at http://bigdaddy.webcriminals.com/~bastiaan/prepay/linear.php3

This made us curious, so we started  investigating. Unfortunately we didn't figure it out yet, 
so we want to ask you guys to help us. We hope you find some new insights with a fresh memory.

Questions, Comments, and ideas are welcome. The official research website is located at
http://hi.precalc.net/ but we still have to update the site.

Paulus De Cyber Kabouter <pdck at cuba.xs4all.nl>
Bastiaan Bakker <bastiaan.bakker at lifeline.nl>
Tim TimeWaster <tim at cuba.xs4all.nl>




From greatofferlist at usa.net  Tue Jan 30 11:59:21 2001
From: greatofferlist at usa.net (greatofferlist at usa.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:59:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Hi, Just for you. Bonus for opening this Email!!!
Message-ID: <200101301959.OAA28457@briar.org>

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From dshyken at 1pdc.com  Tue Jan 30 15:05:39 2001
From: dshyken at 1pdc.com (Daniel Shyken)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:05:39 -0800
Subject: PDC Newsletter  - Pre Valentines' Day Special
Message-ID: <81C25B579A82D31192BE00105A8120840262EACC@AUGUSTA>

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From staym at accessdata.com  Tue Jan 30 14:07:36 2001
From: staym at accessdata.com (staym at accessdata.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:07:36 -0700
Subject: Known-plaintext attack on Encrypted Magic Folders
Message-ID: <3A773B28.58A2@accessdata.com>


Encrypted Magic Folders is a very popular shareware title from PC-Magic.
Magic Folders, its predecessor, was designed to intercept file IO
requests in Windows and return "File Not Found" if the file was in a
marked folder. It does this reasonably well, although booting into DOS
exposes all the files. To solve this problem, PC-Magic chose to roll
their own encryption. Reading the documentation about EMF's encryption
is frightening: as one cypherpunk put it, "Smells like snake oil, looks
like snake oil, it even has bits of snake scales in it." Here we show
that EMF is susceptible to a known-plaintext attack that needs as few as
768 bytes. 

http://www.accessdata.com/emf_cryptanalysis.html
-- 
Mike Stay
Programmer / Crypto guy
AccessData Corp.
staym at accessdata.com




From commerce at home.com  Tue Jan 30 12:24:31 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:24:31 -0500
Subject: hi
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem> <20010130140126.A31759@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <00fd01c08afa$b0900720$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at mit.edu>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
>
> $str = "Also, if you are running W2K and are suffering regular crashes the
problem
> is operator error, not Windows.";
>
> $str =~ s/W2K/Linux/; $str =~ s/Windows/Linux/;
>
> print $str;
> exit;

Yes, that is fairly accurate.  Not particularly relevant though, since he was
only knocking Windows.  I wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to express it,
either.




From sorrin at lockstar.com  Tue Jan 30 12:57:23 2001
From: sorrin at lockstar.com (Steve Orrin)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:57:23 -0500
Subject: Whats NOOS?
Message-ID: <005701c08aff$44535760$0300000a@lithium.lockstar>


Military Sealift Command (N) Code NOOS, 
Bldg 210, Rm 419 
Washington Navy Yard 20398-5100 
Tel :202-433-0009 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bo Elkjaer <boo at datashopper.dk>
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 3:23 PM
Subject: Whats NOOS?


>Hi list
>Does anyone have any idea what NOOS stands for in connection with the US
>Department of Commerce?
>
>The letters NOOS was spotted in a round badge -- NOOS in the middle, US
>Department of Commerce along the circle in the bottom - four words in the
>top -- but I don't know which.
>
>Any help?
>
>Yours
>Bo Elkjaer, Denmark
>




From davida at bevisco.com.au  Mon Jan 29 21:35:47 2001
From: davida at bevisco.com.au (David Arguelles)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:35:47 +1100
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <00e101c08a7e$7f50fba0$0c00000a@bevisco.com.au>

i have a virus called 'W32/Hybris-B'  how do i get it off my computer?

Help!!!
Regards David

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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan 30 14:03:11 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:03:11 -0500
Subject: Whats NOOS?
In-Reply-To: <005701c08aff$44535760$0300000a@lithium.lockstar>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGELCCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



If it was a dept. of commerce gathering, it could also mean NOOS Ukraine, a
computer manufacturer in the Ukraine.  DOC sponsors events that connect,
say, computer manufacturers from around the world.

if not that, it could be a network operations badge.  I don't think they
have round badges though (but I've only seen the US PTO badges and they're
not round).
phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Steve Orrin
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 3:57 PM
To: Bo Elkjaer; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Whats NOOS?



Military Sealift Command (N) Code NOOS,
Bldg 210, Rm 419
Washington Navy Yard 20398-5100
Tel :202-433-0009

-----Original Message-----
From: Bo Elkjaer <boo at datashopper.dk>
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 3:23 PM
Subject: Whats NOOS?


>Hi list
>Does anyone have any idea what NOOS stands for in connection with the US
>Department of Commerce?
>
>The letters NOOS was spotted in a round badge -- NOOS in the middle, US
>Department of Commerce along the circle in the bottom - four words in the
>top -- but I don't know which.
>
>Any help?
>
>Yours
>Bo Elkjaer, Denmark
>





From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan 30 17:55:56 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:55:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <20010130192918.B31267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301746170.28753-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>> Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for 
>> law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system, 
>
>Everything else is true, but I'm not sure about the above.
>You're talking about the NSA key, I assume.

Yes:  Windows has one documented public key that it uses to 
check software that gets, eg, mailed to it via outlook, or 
downloads in a webpage via Explorer, or etc, to decide whether 
it is "trusted" software or not.  If it is trusted software 
(presumably from Microsoft) then it can be run without 
popping up a dialog box and getting the user's attention/
permission. Otherwise, "normal" security methods apply. 

People with debuggers long since discovered that there is more 
than one key ( though there are conflicting reports about 
whether there are two or three), but had no idea why there 
would be more than one unless  Microsoft wanted to enable 
some third party to create "trusted" applications without 
Microsoft's knowledge or review.

Recently when a windows system was made available in a debug 
build (ie, with the symbolic names etc still in the code), it 
was discovered that one of the "extra" keys was named NSA_key, 
which gives at least a strong hint as to who else is allowed 
to create "trusted" downloadable software.

				Bear






From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Jan 30 10:28:42 2001
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:28:42 +0000
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010129205932.9448O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:05:28PM -0600
References: <3A7596B4.5D6CCC88@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010129205932.9448O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010130182842.A6072@aurelius>


Choate:> 
> The only book of his I ever read was the Hawkwind one. It was ok if you
> were stoned enough :)

'Dancers at the end of time' is his best, far as I'm concerned. Don't
know if it requires psychotropic substances. 'Spose it could't do any
harm.

Tiarnan




From gregreynolds at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 30 15:32:29 2001
From: gregreynolds at earthlink.net (Greg Reynolds)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:32:29 -0500
Subject: Whats NOOS?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010130211413.1178A-100000@apollon.datashopper.dk>
Message-ID: <3A774F0D.7F8D5492@earthlink.net>


They're not listed in the department's acronym list and site search
reveals very little relating to NOOS (doubt they're NOS - National Ocean
Service). 

"National Ocean Service (NOS)--conducts research on health of the
coastal environment, which translates into healthy coastal economics.
>From gathering data about the coast to producing marine and aeronautical
charts for safe navigation, NOS is at the forefront of merging coastal
resources with a forward-moving economy." 

http://osecnt13.osec.doc.gov/public.nsf/docs/bureau-acronyms

http://www.fedworld.gov/

I'd be more afraid they were these guys:

Agency: Military Sealift Command
Office: B-210 Washington Navy Yard Room 241, Code NOOS
Washington DC 20378-5100
(202) 433-0061

Any enlightenment available on circumstances?

Bo Elkjaer wrote:
> 
> Hi list
> Does anyone have any idea what NOOS stands for in connection with the US
> Department of Commerce?
> 
> The letters NOOS was spotted in a round badge -- NOOS in the middle, US
> Department of Commerce along the circle in the bottom - four words in the
> top -- but I don't know which.
> 
> Any help?
> 
> Yours
> Bo Elkjaer, Denmark




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From: geplastics at mf01.net (geplastics at mf01.net)
Date: 30 Jan 2001 19:21:26 GMT
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ABAAPEPEABBACPHNABDADAIBIADACPPE-
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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Tue Jan 30 19:23:22 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:23:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bell Grand Jury Experience
Message-ID: <200101310327.TAA26363@user5.hushmail.com>

John,


>Others have told me about being warned by Robb London
about perjury and self-incrimination during testimony. Lawyers
say this is standard, but possibly lethal.

>I didn't know that you can submit a sworn statement beforehand
that all questions will go unanswered to avoid self-incrimination
and that the US Attorneys Manual recommends excusing a
grand jury witness who does that. See the USAM on this:

>   http://cryptome.org/grand-jury.htm

Interesting.  This seems considerably at odds with the position taken by 
courts regarding use of 5th Amendment in IRS cases, which restrict the right 
of those testifying (information on tax forms is sworn and therefore treated 
as testimony) to specific items of inquiry and do not permit wholesale use 
of the 5th.

>From U.S. vs. Sullivan.

"If the form of return provided called for answers that the defendant was 
privileged from making he could have raised the objection in the return,
 but could not on that account refuse to make any return at all. We are 
not called on to decide what, if anything, he might have withheld. Most 
of the items warranted no compaint. It would be an extreme if not an extravagant 
application [274 U.S. 259, 264] of the Fifth Amendment to say that it authorized 
a man to refuse to state the amount of his income because it had been made 
in crime. But if the defendant desired to test that or any other point he 
should have tested it in the return so that it could be passed upon. He 
could not draw a conjurer's circle around the whole matter by his own declaration 
that to write any word upon the government blank would bring him into danger 
of the law. Mason v. United States, 244 U.S. 362 , 37 S. Ct. 621; United 
States ex rel. Vajtauer v. Commissioner of Immigration ( January 3, 1927) 
273 U.S. 103 , 47 S. Ct. 302. In this case the defendant did not even make 
a declaration, he simply abstained from making a return. See further the 
decision of the Privy Council, Minister of Finance v. Smith (1927) A. C. 
193."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=274&page=259

From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan 30 19:25:37 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:25:37 -0800
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <p04320409b69c2a79cc47@[10.1.1.42]>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <3A716AE3.D868B076@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <p04320409b69c2a79cc47@[10.1.1.42]>
Message-ID: <a05010400b69d35ba9934@[207.111.241.239]>


At 12:23 AM -0800 1/30/01, petro wrote:
>>>  Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
>>>  perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
>>>  the society born before them.
>>
>>That more or less happens these days - there is a sort of lost
>>generation born between the late 1950s & about 1970 who  managed to be
>>the first age cohort in 200 years who were poorer than their parents, at
>>least in Britain (where else did punk rock come from?)
>
>	Long Island.
>
>	The Ramones.

The explanation for this came from a band that is not primarily punk, 
The Tubes:

"White punks on dope."


--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan 30 16:27:56 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:27:56 -0500
Subject: hi
In-Reply-To: <20010130140126.A31759@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@mit.edu on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:01:26PM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem> <20010130140126.A31759@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20010130192756.A31267@cluebot.com>


My uptime on my Linux server is 112 days, and that's just because I
had to install memory. My uptime on my Windows 98 laptop is about 1
day.

My previous Windows laptop was even worse. My previous Unix box
was the same.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan 30 16:29:18 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:29:18 -0500
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301128410.3379-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800
References: <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301128410.3379-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010130192918.B31267@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for 
> law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system, 

Everything else is true, but I'm not sure about the above.
You're talking about the NSA key, I assume.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan 30 17:58:52 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:58:52 -0500
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301746170.28753-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <20010130192918.B31267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010130205741.0211b2b0@mail.well.com>


Yes, I remember all that. And I'm as paranoid as anyone.

But this once, the official MS/NSA explanation may be correct: That it's 
related to export approval, and does not in any way work as you describe.

-Declan


At 05:55 PM 1/30/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:


>On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> >On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >> Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for
> >> law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system,
> >
> >Everything else is true, but I'm not sure about the above.
> >You're talking about the NSA key, I assume.
>
>Yes:  Windows has one documented public key that it uses to
>check software that gets, eg, mailed to it via outlook, or
>downloads in a webpage via Explorer, or etc, to decide whether
>it is "trusted" software or not.  If it is trusted software
>(presumably from Microsoft) then it can be run without
>popping up a dialog box and getting the user's attention/
>permission. Otherwise, "normal" security methods apply.
>
>People with debuggers long since discovered that there is more
>than one key ( though there are conflicting reports about
>whether there are two or three), but had no idea why there
>would be more than one unless  Microsoft wanted to enable
>some third party to create "trusted" applications without
>Microsoft's knowledge or review.
>
>Recently when a windows system was made available in a debug
>build (ie, with the symbolic names etc still in the code), it
>was discovered that one of the "extra" keys was named NSA_key,
>which gives at least a strong hint as to who else is allowed
>to create "trusted" downloadable software.
>
>                                 Bear




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan 30 18:02:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:02:45 -0500
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301746170.28753-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <20010130192918.B31267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010130210234.0211a440@mail.well.com>


Background:

http://www.politechbot.com/p-00590.html

-Declan

At 05:55 PM 1/30/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>Yes:  Windows has one documented public key that it uses to
>check software that gets, eg, mailed to it via outlook, or
>downloads in a webpage via Explorer, or etc, to decide whether




From ab&c at bestss.com  Tue Jan 30 21:04:35 2001
From: ab&c at bestss.com (bets)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:04:35
Subject: do you want a visa .with no deposit?
Message-ID: <200101310203.SAA06980@cyberpass.net>


  This company is offering a visa card with no annual fee, no deposit and 
will pay you for the people you refer.Just request the web address by
replying to :          
                    
                   hhd22us at yahoo.com          

 Insert "request " in the subject line
                                                        Thank you




From boo at datashopper.dk  Tue Jan 30 12:17:11 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:17:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Whats NOOS?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010130211413.1178A-100000@apollon.datashopper.dk>


Hi list
Does anyone have any idea what NOOS stands for in connection with the US
Department of Commerce?

The letters NOOS was spotted in a round badge -- NOOS in the middle, US
Department of Commerce along the circle in the bottom - four words in the
top -- but I don't know which.

Any help?

Yours
Bo Elkjaer, Denmark




From MarioC at computer.org  Tue Jan 30 18:30:05 2001
From: MarioC at computer.org (Mario Contestabile)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:30:05 -0500
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
References: <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301128410.3379-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <20010130192918.B31267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c08b2d$b90781c0$a25ac818@fu>


> On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> > Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for 
> > law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system, 
> 
> Everything else is true, but I'm not sure about the above.
> You're talking about the NSA key, I assume.

Don't encourage this freak and his mis-information Declan....




From member_update at mp3.com  Tue Jan 30 21:44:21 2001
From: member_update at mp3.com (member_update at mp3.com)
Date: Tue, 30  Jan  2001 21:44:21 -0800
Subject: My.MP3 Chart Toppers, Free MP3s & More!
Message-ID: <20010131054421.29336.qmail@cannon14.mp3.com>

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From atek3 at gmx.net  Tue Jan 30 21:45:38 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:45:38 -0800
Subject: pgpfone?
Message-ID: <004301c08b49$102f9080$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

how secure is pgpfone?  also how do i improve the sound quality, i'm on an athlon 850 mhz to a t3 and he's on a shitty computer?

atek3
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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan 30 21:11:10 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:11:10 -0500
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101301746170.28753-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJIEONCEAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I'm not sure re: the 'trusted download applications' scenario.  I have not
stepped-through the microsoft capi code material, but I believe a more
reasonable assumption is that law enforcement is more interested in
"dummying-down" the strength of ssl (and e-mail, and .pst file key) sessions
rather than trying to mask a trojan.

Here's why I think this: your isp is capable of delivering a trojan, already
provides updates to dialer apps, etc. and isp downloads are generally
unchecked by end users.  And, your isp is very likely to respond to a
warrant to download a trojan to a user machine (this happens every day.)  In
contrast, Microsoft is unable to comply with a warrant to enable such a
download on demand...the alternative is to purposefully lie to the entire
world about pre-weakend 128-bit key strength, easily attracting lawsuits...I
seriously doubt any rational us company would accept this level of exposure
just to comply with a warrant (don't forget the #1 opponents of us crypto
export laws are us companies, not individuals...shows us companies are more
money driven than 'gee lets help law enforcement at the expense of our
business' driven).  Plus, microsoft doesn't have a huge session-tracking
system which enables them to detect when a particular user logs into the
net, etc....an isp does have this kind of info though and could target
specific users in response to a warrant.  I think the scenario I've outlined
above is probably a legal and reasonable explanation (though I'm not a
lawyer).

As for multiple keys in the microsoft crypto stuff, don't forget about
server-gated crypto.  that particular technology, created by microsoft,
relies on a different set of key generation/management rules than normal
ssl.  this is probably where the 'extra keys' come from.

Phillip



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 8:56 PM
To: Declan McCullagh
Cc: Me; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Absolutely not a joke.





On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>> Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for
>> law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system,
>
>Everything else is true, but I'm not sure about the above.
>You're talking about the NSA key, I assume.

Yes:  Windows has one documented public key that it uses to
check software that gets, eg, mailed to it via outlook, or
downloads in a webpage via Explorer, or etc, to decide whether
it is "trusted" software or not.  If it is trusted software
(presumably from Microsoft) then it can be run without
popping up a dialog box and getting the user's attention/
permission. Otherwise, "normal" security methods apply.

People with debuggers long since discovered that there is more
than one key ( though there are conflicting reports about
whether there are two or three), but had no idea why there
would be more than one unless  Microsoft wanted to enable
some third party to create "trusted" applications without
Microsoft's knowledge or review.

Recently when a windows system was made available in a debug
build (ie, with the symbolic names etc still in the code), it
was discovered that one of the "extra" keys was named NSA_key,
which gives at least a strong hint as to who else is allowed
to create "trusted" downloadable software.

				Bear







From petro at bounty.org  Wed Jan 31 00:57:28 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:57:28 -0800
Subject: hi
In-Reply-To: <20010130192756.A31267@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem>
 <20010130140126.A31759@positron.mit.edu>
 <20010130192756.A31267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <p04320400b69d832aa917@[10.1.1.42]>


>My uptime on my Linux server is 112 days, and that's just because I
>had to install memory. My uptime on my Windows 98 laptop is about 1
>day.

	We had--until the middle of december--a linux box running 
mysql that served as the solitary authentication DB for our (the 
company I work for) website. Approximately 500k users in the 
database. About 200k active in a given week.

	The *mysql* instance had been running for 246 days. The 
machine under it for a little longer. It had run for several months 
before that, but it was moved from one building to another.

	For space and saftey reasons we moved it to a Sun 420 with a 
big disk cluster with Veratas.

	It crashed and burned within a month.

	Never fuck with a working box.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Wed Jan 31 00:24:29 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 01:24:29 -0700
Subject: "Ginger" inventor appears at Davos, stays mum
Message-ID: <6649c170f81c0c2c9ec796c1dd3005da@noisebox.remailer.org>


"Ginger" inventor appears at Davos, stays mum

DAVOS, Switzerland, Jan 30 (Reuters) - You just can't keep a good idea like "Ginger" down. Even if no one is quite sure what the idea in question is.

Not hordes of instant Internet fans bent on finding out. Not media pundits so ready to comment on the purportedly revolutionary technology. And, apparently, not even the inventor himself.

``Ginger'' is said to be the code name of an invention under development by U.S. inventor Dean Kamen. The technology, also referred to as ``IT,'' is thought to be some sort of personal hovercraft or radical new transportation device.

``I'm working on ten different projects,'' Kamen said. ``I don't even know which one they were talking about,'' he told Reuters when asked about the armchair speculation that has swept up everyone from computer industry leaders to news anchors to the neighbor next door.

Kamen declined to comment further on his work, saying he was bound by a confidentiality agreement.

Kamen was at the World Economic Business Forum in Davos, appearing in public for the first time since speculation about the invention began spreading over the Internet and into broadcast and print media.

Word leaked out two weeks ago in a report on a book proposal presented to Harvard Business School Press about Kamen's secretive project. Computer industry leaders such as Apple founder Steve Jobs and top venture capitalist John Doerr were said to back the project.

But no one who knows anything is saying, leaving anyone who doesn't know to wonder.

Popular fascination with the endless possibilities has inspired a variety of Web sites devoted to discovering the inventor's secret, including GingerPoll (http://www.gingerpoll.com), the IT question (http://theITquestion.com) and links to various patent applications filed by Kamen.

Kamen joined a panel with Michael Dell, founder and chairman of Dell Computer Corp., to discuss ``Completing the Technology Revolution.'' During the panel discussion, Kamen again declined to comment on his work.

Other technology industry leaders appearing at the six-day meeting of global poltical and economic leaders were happy to join the high-tech world's latest parlor game and indulge their own guesses at what Kamen's mystery project might be about.

``I don't know what IT is. I think it stands for Individual Transporter, a scooter of some sort,'' said Michael Dertouzos, director of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Lab for Computer Science.

Bill Joy, chief scientist at Sun Microsystems Inc. (NasdaqNM:SUNW - news) guessed it was a low- or zero-smog emission vehicle, built from carbon fiber and containing fuel cells as an energy generator.

The mystery continue




From kwalker2 at gte.net  Tue Jan 30 23:00:15 2001
From: kwalker2 at gte.net (snit)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:00:15 -0500
Subject: Recommendations for Cypherpunks Books
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b69d35ba9934@[207.111.241.239]>
References: <p04320409b69c2a79cc47@[10.1.1.42]>
 <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101220015020.2408-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <3A716AE3.D868B076@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <p04320409b69c2a79cc47@[10.1.1.42]>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010131015306.00a90da0@mail.gte.net>



>At 12:23 AM -0800 1/30/01, petro wrote:
>>>>  Kids born in years between large bumps end up caught on the edge -
>>>>  perpetually too old for the ones behind, too young to ever be accepted in
>>>>  the society born before them.
>>>
>>>That more or less happens these days - there is a sort of lost
>>>generation born between the late 1950s & about 1970 who  managed to be
>>>the first age cohort in 200 years who were poorer than their parents, at
>>>least in Britain (where else did punk rock come from?)
>>
>>         Long Island.
>>
>>         The Ramones.
>

German Garage punk, late 60s.  they were influencing the US and UK around 
the same time.  




From weidai at eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 02:10:26 2001
From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:10:26 -0800
Subject: plausible deniability
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101290215030.13409-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:52:03AM -0500
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101290215030.13409-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <20010131021026.C1507@eskimo.com>


On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:52:03AM -0500, dmolnar wrote:
> I just came across this PhD thesis in philosophy:
> 
> "Cryptography and Evidence" 
> Michael Roe
> http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/mroe/THESIS.PDF

Are you sure this is a thesis in philosophy? It seems to talk about the
rather practical concerns of non-repudiation and its converse, plausible
deniability. The paper reminds me of something I was wondering about: are
there any email security programs that offer plausible deniability as an
option? Sometimes you want to MAC a message with an authenticated
symmetric key instead of signing it in order to preserve plausible
deniability, but PGP for example doesn't seem to offer this.




From omc at cam.org  Wed Jan 31 01:37:55 2001
From: omc at cam.org (OMC)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 04:37:55 -0500
Subject: Saw your post.Need help
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20010131093755.008d09c4@pop.hip.cam.org>


Is there any way to track down someones address from ip number.Someone is
sending me malicious email and i want to identify who he is.
I have his basic information.Can you help me?
Thanks
Gerry Ross

514 6304518




From greatofferlist at usa.net  Wed Jan 31 05:46:06 2001
From: greatofferlist at usa.net (greatofferlist at usa.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 05:46:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hi, Just for you. Bonus for opening this Email!!!
Message-ID: <200101311346.FAA06933@toad.com>

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From greatofferlist at usa.net  Wed Jan 31 05:48:52 2001
From: greatofferlist at usa.net (greatofferlist at usa.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 05:48:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hi, Just for you. Bonus for opening this Email!!!
Message-ID: <200101311348.FAA02018@cyberpass.net>

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From jajom at lava.net  Wed Jan 31 09:10:45 2001
From: jajom at lava.net (Jim McQueeney)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:10:45 -1000
Subject: NetScan Tools Pro 2000
References: <J4B08OAJ36922.3566203704@anonymous.poster>
Message-ID: <3A784715.4FEEEC26@lava.net>


<http://www.extralan.co.uk/products/Diagnostic-Tools/NetScan-Tools-Pro.htm> (?)

Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where to find "NetScan Tools Pro 2000"?

-- 
*Jim McQueeney <jajom at lava.net> ***
****** PGP ** RSA: 0x45A3FB5D *****
****** Keys * DH.: 0xA82248FD *****




From greatofferlist at usa.net  Wed Jan 31 05:46:12 2001
From: greatofferlist at usa.net (greatofferlist at usa.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:46:12 -0600
Subject: Hi, Just for you. Bonus for opening this Email!!!
Message-ID: <200101311346.f0VDkBV05885@ak47.algebra.com>

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From greatofferlist at usa.net  Wed Jan 31 05:57:34 2001
From: greatofferlist at usa.net (greatofferlist at usa.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:57:34 -0600
Subject: Hi, Just for you. Bonus for opening this Email!!!
Message-ID: <200101311357.HAA24213@einstein.ssz.com>

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From greatofferlist at usa.net  Wed Jan 31 05:46:33 2001
From: greatofferlist at usa.net (greatofferlist at usa.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:46:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Hi, Just for you. Bonus for opening this Email!!!
Message-ID: <200101311346.IAA29542@ohbmx0.ohb.com>

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From boo at datashopper.dk  Wed Jan 31 00:03:20 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:03:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Whats NOOS?
In-Reply-To: <3A774F0D.7F8D5492@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010131085332.7557B-100000@apollon.datashopper.dk>


On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Greg Reynolds wrote:

> Any enlightenment available on circumstances?

Last thursday a friend and colleague of mine visited the danish SIGINT
site Skibsbylejren, which is under reconstruction and enhancement. They're
building new 23 meters tall, 30 meters wide radomes. Three radomes are
more or less finished by now, three more are planned to be built soon.

My friend visited the site with a local politician.

So they went in on the enclosed area (through the unlocked gate) and
knocked on the door of a trailer parked near one of the radomes. This guy
jumps up inside the trailer, rushes to the door blocking their access, and
tells them 'you're not supposed to be here'. He's obviously american,
wearing overalls and a blue workmans shirt with a round printed badge on
left pocket: NOOS in the middle, US Department of Commerce along the
circle.

NOOS is short for four words - which also were printed in the badge, but
they didn't get the time to read the words before the american ran away
and eight danish military intelligence officers showed up and threw my
friend and the politician out.

My friend works for national radio, and they were visiting the site so she
could interview the politician for a news-piece on signals intelligence in
Denmark. The story about the american broke big time this morning and will
be discussed in parliament later today.

Yours


> 
> Bo Elkjaer wrote:
> > 
> > Hi list
> > Does anyone have any idea what NOOS stands for in connection with the US
> > Department of Commerce?
> > 
> > The letters NOOS was spotted in a round badge -- NOOS in the middle, US
> > Department of Commerce along the circle in the bottom - four words in the
> > top -- but I don't know which.
> > 
> > Any help?
> > 
> > Yours
> > Bo Elkjaer, Denmark
> 

--
[ --> I'm Bo Elkjaer. Reach me here: bo.elkjaer at eb.dk,            ]
[ boo at datashopper.dk, phone: (+45)86132744, fax (+45)86132721.    ]
[ Read me here: www.eb.dk/nettet/, www.datashopper.dk/~boo/       ]
[            ... Bevar naturen: Sylt et egern...              <-- ]




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jan 31 09:53:47 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:53:47 -0800
Subject: Absolutely not a joke. 
Message-ID: <3A78512B.9F485916@lsil.com>


>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:45:43AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>> > Windows is also built to be insecure; there are backdoor keys for 
>> > law-enforcement types to stick "trusted" trojans on the system, 
>> 
>> Everything else is true, but I'm not sure about the above.
>> You're talking about the NSA key, I assume.
>
>Don't encourage this freak and his mis-information Declan....
>
The basic concept seems probable, likely or at the very least on
someone's wishlist depending on your degree of paranoia. It is not
necessarily misinformation. Unfortunately it remains unsupported by
examples. Unidentified Execution Objects so to speak. That
notwithstanding, I wouldn't do anything on a Win platform that I wanted
to keep absolutely secure.

Mike




From aolivieri at ehrbar.com  Wed Jan 31 06:55:22 2001
From: aolivieri at ehrbar.com (Anthony Olivieri)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:55:22 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c08b95$d6ee3fe0$0f0101c0@uu.net>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 31 08:14:11 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:14:11 -0600
Subject: O'Reilly Network: Code + Law: An Interview with Lawrence Lessig [Jan. 29, 2001]
Message-ID: <3A7839D3.A3B3A74@ssz.com>


http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/p2p/2001/01/30/lessig.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Jan 31 08:05:23 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:05:23 -0500
Subject: Whats NOOS?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB78@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


I love these scavenger hunts.
It's possible (probable!) that none of these are
what you want. 

A Google search turns up:
-----------------
NOOS Space Technologies Limited
is a Russian Satcom group:
http://www.fas.org/spp/civil/russia/nst.htm
This looks like a possibility, though what
they'd be doing in Dennmark is anyones
guess. The presence of an American does
not mean much - he could be a contractor.

Links from that site are intriguing.

------------------
http://www.vnh.org/Admin/Afloat/Afloat01.html
This looks interesting. The document appears to
deal with handling accidents in the US Navy. It
contains lines such as 

" a.COMSC Safety Office (NOOS) shall"

the OS in NOOS could be Operational or Occupational 
Safety. NOOS appears to be a title for a US Naval officer
with safety responsibilities.
----------

Noos is apparently the name of a cable operator/ISP? of Suez 
Lyonnaise des Eaux,  partially owned by Morgan Stanley 
Dean Witter, an American company.

http://www.francetelecomna.com/nr/nr_prre/nr_prre_08-07-00_noos.htm
http://www.apec.asso.fr/entreprise/32910827800048-noos/
http://noos.free.fr seems to be an independent group for users of
NOOS

This also looks like a good possibility
-------------
Sillier ones:

Network of Objectivist Scholars (http://www.objectivist-scholars.net/)
Nah, I don't think the Randites are building radomes in Dennmark 
(sounds like something out of Illuminatus!)
-------------
Nigi Nigi Nu Noos e Nu Nu Noos is the name of a resort at
Balabag, Boracay Island, Malaya
http://www.bridgestravel.com/nigi-nigi/index.htm
(I know that's not it, but could not resist the temptation to
type Nigi Nigi Nu Noos e Nu Nu Noos :-)
-----------
Noos is of course, ancient Greek for 'mind'.
-----------
Nasda Ocean Observation System
http://www.ioccg.org/thailand/noos.html




> ----------
> From: 	Bo Elkjaer[SMTP:boo at datashopper.dk]
> Reply To: 	Bo Elkjaer
> Sent: 	Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:03 AM
> To: 	Greg Reynolds
> Cc: 	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; dc-stuff at dis.org
> Subject: 	Re: Whats NOOS?
> 
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Greg Reynolds wrote:
> 
> > Any enlightenment available on circumstances?
> 
> Last thursday a friend and colleague of mine visited the danish SIGINT
> site Skibsbylejren, which is under reconstruction and enhancement. They're
> building new 23 meters tall, 30 meters wide radomes. Three radomes are
> more or less finished by now, three more are planned to be built soon.
> 
> My friend visited the site with a local politician.
> 
> So they went in on the enclosed area (through the unlocked gate) and
> knocked on the door of a trailer parked near one of the radomes. This guy
> jumps up inside the trailer, rushes to the door blocking their access, and
> tells them 'you're not supposed to be here'. He's obviously american,
> wearing overalls and a blue workmans shirt with a round printed badge on
> left pocket: NOOS in the middle, US Department of Commerce along the
> circle.
> 
> NOOS is short for four words - which also were printed in the badge, but
> they didn't get the time to read the words before the american ran away
> and eight danish military intelligence officers showed up and threw my
> friend and the politician out.
> 
> My friend works for national radio, and they were visiting the site so she
> could interview the politician for a news-piece on signals intelligence in
> Denmark. The story about the american broke big time this morning and will
> be discussed in parliament later today.
> 
> Yours
> 
> 
> > 
> > Bo Elkjaer wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi list
> > > Does anyone have any idea what NOOS stands for in connection with the
> US
> > > Department of Commerce?
> > > 
> > > The letters NOOS was spotted in a round badge -- NOOS in the middle,
> US
> > > Department of Commerce along the circle in the bottom - four words in
> the
> > > top -- but I don't know which.
> > > 
> > > Any help?
> > > 
> > > Yours
> > > Bo Elkjaer, Denmark
> > 
> 
> --
> [ --> I'm Bo Elkjaer. Reach me here: bo.elkjaer at eb.dk,            ]
> [ boo at datashopper.dk, phone: (+45)86132744, fax (+45)86132721.    ]
> [ Read me here: www.eb.dk/nettet/, www.datashopper.dk/~boo/       ]
> [            ... Bevar naturen: Sylt et egern...              <-- ]
> 




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 31 03:26:05 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:26:05 +0000
Subject: Whats NOOS?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010130211413.1178A-100000@apollon.datashopper.dk> <3A774F0D.7F8D5492@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3A77F64D.B200F97D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Greg Reynolds posted some jargon purporting to be from the US National
Ocean Service:

> "NOS is at the forefront of merging coastal
> resources with a forward-moving economy."

What a wonderful way of putting it. Corporate dont-sue-me-please
on-message toe-the-line vision-and-values mission-statement blandness
meets military-official Haigspeak and together they produce such a
charmingly inoffensive little phrase.

If you are a "coastal resource" you will be merged. You will be
*assimilated*  It's for your own good you know. None of that stitting
around uselessly somewhere between the sea and the land. That cannot be
tolerated.  You will be merged.

And don't think you are going to get a piece of the coast if you aren't
a part of the "forward-moving economy". Backward-movers need not apply.
And as for sideways-movers, we know how to deal with those little
crablets. Trust me, I'm from the Fisheries Protection Agency, and I'm
here to merge you.

All those starfish had better co-operate too. They can crawl but they
can't hide. They *will* be assimilated. Merged. A seamless geodesically
forward-moving economic network encompassing all right-thinking coastal
entities.  I have seen the future and it writhes. 

Ken Brown




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 31 03:44:04 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:44:04 +0000
Subject: hi
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300924160.30525-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <00c401c08ae7$3fcf1bb0$0100a8c0@golem> <20010130140126.A31759@positron.mit.edu> <20010130192756.A31267@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3A77FA84.D39F03AE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> My uptime on my Linux server is 112 days, and that's just because I
> had to install memory. My uptime on my Windows 98 laptop is about 1
> day.
> 
> My previous Windows laptop was even worse. My previous Unix box
> was the same.

Roughly my experience. My Windows 98 can stay up for a week if I don't
use it but I tend to do a reboot at least daily under real use (email &
word-processing mainly - my daughter plays  games & that's worse)
Windows 3.1 used to be far less reliable &  my iBook is pretty bad as
well.  I doubt if I've ever had 8 hours uninterrupted service from it.

Linux is about the same as Solaris - I've seen it up for a year, though
not on a machine that was doing much, and I'd be upset if one had to be
restarted as often as once a month for bugfixes or maintenance.  I have
seen some unpleasant memory problems on Solaris though not on Linux, but
I've used Linux less (just one box at work & another at home at the
moment - but at a previous place of employment we managed to keep
Linux-based firewalls and web caches going for 24/7 3 weeks out of 4)  

I guess Linux is maybe 100 times as reliable as Windows 98?

I've had over a year's continuous online operation, with heavy use, 
from some of the more robust Unices, especially AIX & DGUX (I've known
AIX systems continue to run quite happily after the system disk was
totally trashed with an rm -fR *, also I've seen them carry on for
months with real hardware errors on disks, screens and even memory)

To be fair to Microsoft I have seen dedicated servers based on DOS that
just ran one program all the time stay up for a very long time indeed.
But as soon as Windows gets into the picture, reliability goes through
the floor. NT can stand for weeks provided you don't use it as an IIS
web server or Exchange server, that tends to kill it, as does MS Word of
all things.  I've been using NT since beta releases of 3.1 & I am very
familiar with the way it hangs. I've also installed literally dozens, if
not hundreds, of NT systems. It really is far, far, more reliable than
W98 and far, far, less than a decent Unix (don't ask me about SCO
though)


Ken (who lost count of how many different OS he's installed & worked on
at about 19. Systems that is, not years.)




From sampo.syreeni at helsinki.fi  Wed Jan 31 04:02:59 2001
From: sampo.syreeni at helsinki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:02:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Absolutely not a joke.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010130205741.0211b2b0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101311400460.18751-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>But this once, the official MS/NSA explanation may be correct: That it's
>related to export approval, and does not in any way work as you describe.

But does that really matter if the key is there and makes it possible for
the NSA to produce 'secure' software?

(Of course, I haven't seen any verified report that says the key is actually
present in current non-debug builds, or that it is used in parallel with the
m$ one. I'm assuming.)

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Jan 31 11:54:40 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:54:40 -0500
Subject: slingshot anonymous access?
In-Reply-To: <3A7839D3.A3B3A74@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOELLCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Has anyone tried a slingshot subscription yet?  It's a US-based ISP
providing anonymous internet access (anonymous because it's pre-paid...no
credit card required, you buy a cd from a store, use an enclosed code for
access, and get 600 local dial-up minutes [or 200 ld minutes]).  It's being
sold at Staples and Compusa.  Their URL is www.slingshot.com.  I really like
this idea of 'anonymous' dial-up access...very similar to pre-paid isp
access ideas in europe.  Are these business models going to survive long
enough to invest my time/hassle to try this out?  I know AOL, Earthlink,
MSN, etc. rely heavily on knowing a little about their customers to drive
higher CPM revenues (difficult to make money on sub revenues only).

phillip




From atek3 at gmx.net  Wed Jan 31 16:04:26 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:04:26 -0800
Subject: slingshot anonymous access?
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOELLCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c08be2$8ecddde0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


whoa, they aren't anonymous at all!
they gather
>cookie technology
>IP addresses
>dial-in phone number

boom all they need to watch you and come after you!

atek3

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip H. Zakas" <pzakas at toucancapital.com>
To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; <hell at einstein.ssz.com>;
<austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 11:54 AM
Subject: CDR: slingshot anonymous access?


>
> Has anyone tried a slingshot subscription yet?  It's a US-based ISP
> providing anonymous internet access (anonymous because it's pre-paid...no
> credit card required, you buy a cd from a store, use an enclosed code for
> access, and get 600 local dial-up minutes [or 200 ld minutes]).  It's
being
> sold at Staples and Compusa.  Their URL is www.slingshot.com.  I really
like
> this idea of 'anonymous' dial-up access...very similar to pre-paid isp
> access ideas in europe.  Are these business models going to survive long
> enough to invest my time/hassle to try this out?  I know AOL, Earthlink,
> MSN, etc. rely heavily on knowing a little about their customers to drive
> higher CPM revenues (difficult to make money on sub revenues only).
>
> phillip
>
>




From somebody at someplace.on.the.net  Wed Jan 31 08:33:32 2001
From: somebody at someplace.on.the.net (Anonymous Remailer)
Date: 31 Jan 2001 16:33:32 -0000
Subject: NetScan Tools Pro 2000
Message-ID: <J4B08OAJ36922.3566203704@anonymous.poster>


Does anyone know where to find "NetScan Tools Pro 2000"?






From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jan 31 14:19:07 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:19:07 -0500
Subject: New Bell Charges
Message-ID: <200101312227.RAA21803@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


According to the court docket new charges against Jim Bell 
have been added:

  1/25/01  39      SUPERSEDING indictment  James Dalton Bell (1) count(s)
                 1s-2s, 3s, 4s-5s (car) [Entry date 01/26/01] fv

Current charges:

  18:2261.F Interstate Stalking (1 - 2)

  18:2261.F Interstate Stalking (1s - 2s)

  18:2261.F Using Facilities of Interstate Commerce of Interstate Stalking
(3s)

  18:2261.F Interstate Stalking (4s - 5s)

January 25 is the date of my grand jury appearance. Still have not
received a transcript of my testimony. 




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 31 09:35:20 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:35:20 +0000
Subject: Whats NOOS?
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB78@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <3A784CD8.599116E2@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Trei, Peter" wrote:
> 
> I love these scavenger hunts.
> It's possible (probable!) that none of these are
> what you want.
> 
> A Google search turns up:
> -----------------
> NOOS Space Technologies Limited
> is a Russian Satcom group:
> http://www.fas.org/spp/civil/russia/nst.htm
> This looks like a possibility, though what
> they'd be doing in Dennmark is anyones
> guess. The presence of an American does
> not mean much - he could be a contractor.
> 
> Links from that site are intriguing.
 

Alta Vista, as always is richer if not faster than Googol. The first hit
on Alta Vista is to an Italian translation of TS Eliot's Little Gidding
(wa wonderful poem :-)

There are some computer resellers in Kiev: http://www.noos.kiev.ua/


> ------------------
> http://www.vnh.org/Admin/Afloat/Afloat01.html
> This looks interesting. The document appears to
> deal with handling accidents in the US Navy. It
> contains lines such as
> 
> " a.COMSC Safety Office (NOOS) shall"
> 
> the OS in NOOS could be Operational or Occupational
> Safety. NOOS appears to be a title for a US Naval officer
> with safety responsibilities.


There are links suggested to  http://www.norva.navy.mil/navosh/ which is
some sort of training college  ("industrial hygiene"is one of the
courses) - perhaps it is to do with the COMSC (NOOS) Peter already
mentioned at  http://www.vnh.org/Admin/Afloat/Afloat03.html  - which is
I guess back to the original sealift idea.


> Noos is apparently the name of a cable operator/ISP? of Suez
> Lyonnaise des Eaux,  partially owned by Morgan Stanley
> Dean Witter, an American company.
> 
> http://www.francetelecomna.com/nr/nr_prre/nr_prre_08-07-00_noos.htm
> http://www.apec.asso.fr/entreprise/32910827800048-noos/
> http://noos.free.fr seems to be an independent group for users of
> NOOS
> 
> This also looks like a good possibility
> -------------
> Sillier ones:
> 
> Network of Objectivist Scholars (http://www.objectivist-scholars.net/)
> Nah, I don't think the Randites are building radomes in Dennmark
> (sounds like something out of Illuminatus!)
> -------------
> Nigi Nigi Nu Noos e Nu Nu Noos is the name of a resort at
> Balabag, Boracay Island, Malaya
> http://www.bridgestravel.com/nigi-nigi/index.htm
> (I know that's not it, but could not resist the temptation to
> type Nigi Nigi Nu Noos e Nu Nu Noos :-)
> -----------
> Noos is of course, ancient Greek for 'mind'.

Or they could be clammies - the Prophet Elron explained the origins of
the word "Dianetics" as "Dia - through, noos - mind".

Ken Brown


> Nasda Ocean Observation System
> http://www.ioccg.org/thailand/noos.html
http://www.aic.nrl.navy.mil/~aha/research/old/iccbr-95-summary.txt has a
reference to "Cases as feature values in the NOOS language" - unlikely
toi be relevant.

But True Conspiracy theorists  will want to connect it to "Summer Noos"
on Blackhawk Helicopters at:
http://www.nvctc.commnet.edu/conncap/page2.htm
Obviously a paramilitary training camp designed to indoctrinate American
Youth into the statist grasp of the enforcers of the New World Order.

My guess is the Nasda lot. They seem to be into GIS & remote sensing &
also work with Unesco & some UK universities, so I guess they could turn
up more or less anywhere - though in that case why the heavies?  Danes
are usually a lot less hassled by tourists wandering around uninvited
than, say Russians. Or even Americans.


Ken Brown




And I thought lawyers were jargon-ridden:

Trying this URL:
http://searchpdf2.adobe.com:9000/cgi-bin/query?mss=simple&pg=q&what=web&user=searchintranet&enc=iso88591&site=main&filter=intranet&kl=XX&q=hq+MILSTAMP+af+DLMSO+navy+BELVOIR+hqamc+alexandria+COMSC+WASHINGTON+DC+DA+WASHINGTON+DC+HQ+DECA+FT+HQ+USAF+WASHINGTON+DLMSO+FT+BELVOIR+DLA+FT+BELVOIR+DFAS+HQ+WASHINGTON+FM+DLMSO+FT

reveals > 40,000 documents more or less like:


Please note, the transfer of MILSTAMP to TRANSCOM is the primary agenda
item for both segments (Vol 1 and Vol 2) of the meeting. McLean, VA
22101- 3403 (703) 275- 5225(703) 275- 5606 (Fax) DSN =235 Website:
http:// www. dlmso. hq. dla. mil/ ===== eFollows===== ROUTINE R 112009Z
FEB 99 FM PTC EMAIL SYSTEM WASH DC TO DA EMAIL CUSTOMER// DLATCC// R
111737Z FEB 99 INFO DA WASHINGTON DC// DALO-TSD// HQ USAF WASHINGTON
DC// LGTT// CDRMTMC FALLS CHURCH VA// MTOP- CD/- OS/ MTRM/ MTAQ// HQ AMC
SCOTT AFB IL// SONC/ DOJC/ FM/ DAO DE FA// COMSC WASHINGTON DC// N83//
DFAS OPLOC NORFOLK VA// FP UNCLAS SUBJECT:  MILSTAMP MEETINGS REF: (A)
DLMSO E- MAILS OF 01/ 08/ 1999 (VOLUME 1) AND 01/ 13/  1999 (VOLUME 2);
SAME SUBJECT AS REQUESTED IN THE E- MAIL, WE WOULD  APPRECIATE
ATTENDANCE BY THE MILSTAMP FOCAL POINT PRIMARY AND/ OR ALTERNATE, AND
YOUR SERVICE/ AGENCY TRANSPORTATION PRINCIPAL. PLEASE  PROVIDE THE NAME
AND RANK/ GRADE OF YOUR ATTENDEES TO DLMSO NO LATER  THAN 16 FEBRUARY
1999. AGENDA FOR MILSTAMP VOLUME I: 0800 - INTRODUCTIONS  AND
ADMINISTRATIVE REMARKS 0815 - REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF PREVIOUS  MEETINGS
MINUTES 0830 - REVIEW OF PMCLS 0915 - BREAK 0930 - REVIEW OF AMCLS  1000
- OTHER VOLUME I ISSUES 1030 - USTRANSCOM (FUTURE OF MILSTAMP VOLUME  1)
(OTHER ISSUES TO BE DISSEMINATED SEPARATELY) 1130 - LUNCH POINTS OF
 CONTACT FOR THESE MEETINGS ARE WILLIE FITZHUGH, MILSTAMP VOLUME I,
(703) 275- 5243, DSN 235, FAX 5606, E- MAIL: WILLIAM_ FITZHUGH@ HQ. DLA.
MIL; FOR MILSTAMP  VOLUME II, DENNIS THOMAS, (703) 275- 5225, DSN 235,
FAX 5606, E- MAIL: DENNIS_  THOMAS@ HQ. DLA. MIL  Keywords: hq,
MILSTAMP, af, DLMSO, navy, BELVOIR, hqamc, alexandria, COMSC WASHINGTON
DC, DA WASHINGTON DC, HQ DECA FT, HQ USAF WASHINGTON, DLMSO FT BELVOIR,
DLA FT BELVOIR, DFAS HQ WASHINGTON, FM DLMSO FT 


And as for this - where is Echelon when you need it?

Summary:  CRYPTOLOGIC TECHNICIAN TRAINING COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322) SE
RIES, MOD 3,  AUTOMATED COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS\ INTRODUCTION TO DATA
COMMUNICATION  NAVEDTRA A95- 03- 44- 89 CRYPTOLOGIC TECHNICIAN TRAINING
SERIES, MOD 9, FLEET  OPERATIONS TACTICAL CRYPTOLOGIC MANAGEMENT
NAVEDTRA A95- 09- 00- 87  COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322 COMNAVSECGRU (CODE
G1322) COMNAVSECGRU  (CODE G1322) COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322) COMNAVSECGRU
(CODE G1322)  CRYPTOIOGIC TECHNICIAN TRAINING COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322)
SERIES, MOD 10,  FLEET OPERATIONS - FOREIGN NAVAL STUDIES; WARSAW PA~;
GUIDE TO THE SOVIET  NAVY NAVEDTRA A95- 10- OO- 87 Enclosure (1) 2 --
COURBE TITLE/ NAVEDTRA  NUMBER CRYPTOLOGIC TECHNICIAN TRAINING SERIES,
MOD 11, CTM ORGANIZATION AND ADMINISTRATION NAVEDTRA A95- 11- 44- 88
COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322)  COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322) CONMAVSECGRU (CODE
G1322) BUMED BUMED  BUMED CNO (OP- 39) COMNAVCOMTELCOM (Code N- 121B
HISTORY OF THE CHAPLAIN  CORPS, PART I NAVEDTRA 10906- 4 4 Enclosure (1)
gOURSE SPONSOR BUMED BUMED  CNO (OP- 151) BUMED NAVACCTGFINCEN (NAFC- 3)
BUMED COMNAVAIRSYSCOM (PMA  205- 41) BUMED COMNAVINTCOM (NIC- 01)
NAVPETOFF NAVOCEANO CNET BUMED  BUMED CNO (OP- 097 BUMED CNO (OP- 39)
BUMED CNO (OP- 39) CNO (OP- 39) CNO (OP-  354G) CNO (OP- 39) CNO (OP-
152) CNO (OP- 39) BUMED COMNAVFACENGCOM CNO  (OP- 39) CNO (OP- 09N) CNo
(OP- 39) COMSPAWARSYSCOM (003- 244) 8 Enclosure (1)  L. COURSE TITLE/
NA= DTRA NUMBER SHIPHANDLING NAVEDTRA 10738- B1 COURSE SPONSOR CNO (OP-
39) COMNAVSUPSYSCOM (SUP OP- 31) BUMED CNO (OP- 09B) COMNAVSUPSYSCOM
(SUP OP- 31) COMNAVSUPSYSCOM (SUP OP- 31) COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322)
COMNAVSECGRU (CODE G1322) CNO (OP- 39) CNTECHTRA (CODE N613) BUMED NAVY
JAG (CODE 20   Keywords: MATERIAL, ADPSO, COMSC, CORPS, CRYPTOLOGIC,
SPONSORSHIP, Support, JAG, CNO,  NAFC, TRAINING COURSES COURSE, COURSE
SPONSOR COMNAVAIRSYSCOM, COURSE  SPONSOR CNO, BUMED COMNAVFACENGCOM CNO,
BUMED BUMED  COMNAVCOMTELCOM, NAVY NAVEDTRA A95, BUMED BUMED BUMED, 

Presumably an obsolete list of US navy training courses from 20 years
ago.

So that was what the FOIA was for - swamping the activists in a sea of
irrelevant data.

Ken Brown




From DwainPowers at post.com  Wed Jan 31 17:45:17 2001
From: DwainPowers at post.com (DwainPowers at post.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:45:17 -0800
Subject: Guaranteed Traffic to Your Site!
Message-ID: <6e6x7hampm6.5wvm2hcfsl@earthlink.net>




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From sadsakld at impsat.net.co  Wed Jan 31 18:20:50 2001
From: sadsakld at impsat.net.co (sadsakld at impsat.net.co)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:20:50
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <553.151182.603025@mail.wpgsun.com>


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From hlndr at freemail.ru  Wed Jan 31 16:09:46 2001
From: hlndr at freemail.ru (Loan Officer)
Date: 31 Jan 2001 19:09:46 -0500
Subject: Mortgage Rates Fall Again
Message-ID: <HADESh19KZ9aBd5Gj6m0001f3b2@hades.webcreations4biz.net>


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From hlndr at freemail.ru  Wed Jan 31 16:09:53 2001
From: hlndr at freemail.ru (Loan Officer)
Date: 31 Jan 2001 19:09:53 -0500
Subject: Mortgage Rates Fall Again
Message-ID: <HADEShAiVFyRM26B7nw0001f3bf@hades.webcreations4biz.net>


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From hlndr at freemail.ru  Wed Jan 31 16:10:12 2001
From: hlndr at freemail.ru (Loan Officer)
Date: 31 Jan 2001 19:10:12 -0500
Subject: Mortgage Rates Fall Again
Message-ID: <HADES3fNTdJ37ZSEo7E0001f3e4@hades.webcreations4biz.net>


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From hlndr at freemail.ru  Wed Jan 31 16:10:24 2001
From: hlndr at freemail.ru (Loan Officer)
Date: 31 Jan 2001 19:10:24 -0500
Subject: Mortgage Rates Fall Again
Message-ID: <HADESHhU7GK2PvfIPlm0001f3fd@hades.webcreations4biz.net>


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From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Wed Jan 31 19:15:22 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:15:22 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C80@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Wed Jan 31 19:05:03 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:05:03 -0600
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <03050310910241@[216.170.51.208]>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Jan 31 12:20:25 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:20:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: NetScan Tools Pro 2000
Message-ID: <f93da462ad3b4d688bd474410a88de03@dizum.com>


Does anyone know where to find "NetScan Tools Pro 2000"?






From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Jan 31 12:40:03 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:40:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: NetScan Tools Pro 2000
Message-ID: <72018f3918c6ed80ca8b835fda83febe@dizum.com>


Does anyone know where to find "NetScan Tools Pro 2000"?








From qalhaty1 at omantel.net.om  Wed Jan 31 10:23:40 2001
From: qalhaty1 at omantel.net.om (sultan)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:23:40 +0400
Subject: request for sexy items
Message-ID: <MABBLFNBJGOFJPHGOEBLKEHPCAAA.qalhaty1@omantel.net.om>


HI I AM INTERSTING IN SEX ,I AM LOOKING
FOR SIXY ITEMS ABOUT BOYS FROM 7 -- 15
YEARS OLD, PLEASE SEND TO ME ANY WEBSITES ,PICTURES ,E -MAIL OR ANY ITEMS
THAT CONTAIN SIX OF BOYS 7 -- 15 YEARS OLD.my e -mail is
QALHATY at yahoo.com
thanks a lot
note: i will pay for that items so please send urgent.




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Wed Jan 31 19:26:27 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:26:27 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44318@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From Kevin.Cousins at reuters.com  Wed Jan 31 15:11:43 2001
From: Kevin.Cousins at reuters.com (Kevin Cousins)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:11:43 +1000
Subject: Saw your post.Need help
Message-ID: <B0011791193@euvig1.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com>






On 31/01/2001 08:37:55 PM OMC wrote:
> Is there any way to track down someones address from ip number.  Someone is
> sending me malicious email and i want to identify who he is.

> I have his basic information.  Can you help me?

Your request arrived on the cypherpunks maimling list, a general discussion
forum for cryptology, so I don't quite see how your query is particularly
relevant to that topic.

That aside, assuming you're asking about /machine names and web addresses/, then
you're asking about fundamental domain name system operating issues, and as
such, you should be able to find the answer to your question in any of dozens of
texts, or else a quick web search will reveal all you need to know.  Focus your
query on "DNS reverse lookup" or similar.  Note: for some long time, Microsoft,
in their (questionable) wisdom, released severely incomplete implementations of
DNS tools, effectively making reverse lookup infeasible.  I'm almost certain
that they've now had to bow to peer pressure and implement it properly, so to
some extent, your success will depend on how current your Microsoft installation
actually is.

Alternatively, if you're instead asking how to determine someone's street
address given only an IP address, then you seek an answer as daft as the one
you'd get if you asked "How do I determine someone's street address given only a
malicious letter (which presumably has no return address) that they've sent to
me".  I suppose it might be doable in some sense (you might be able to find the
postal address of the ISP used by your malicious correspondent), but to attempt
such an investigation would mark you as a great prat.

--
Kevin.


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