From nobody at neuropa.net  Mon Jan  1 00:26:26 2001
From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous)
Date: 1 Jan 2001 08:26:26 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200101010821.f018L4r22302@berlin.neuropa.net>



-- ignore -- 




From nobody at neuropa.net  Mon Jan  1 00:37:39 2001
From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous)
Date: 1 Jan 2001 08:37:39 -0000
Subject: ASCII Ribbon Campaign... [was Re: This is why a free society is evil.]
Message-ID: <200101010832.f018WIr22378@berlin.neuropa.net>



http://www.google.com/search?q=ascii+ribbon+campaign

ymmv,
C.G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim May" <tcmay at got.net>
To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: CDR: Re: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd)


> At 10:57 AM -0700 12/17/00, Tiarnan O Corrain wrote:
> >Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:Re- CDR- Re- This is why a free 
> >(MiME/CSOm) (00012800)
> 
> 
> Please in-line your text.
> 
> Your message above appears as an attachment (only, not just a digital 
> signature). Sometimes Eudora Pro, a common e-mail program, is able to 
> open such messages, sometimes not. In your particular case, for 
> whatever reasons, attempting to open your attachment crashes my 
> program. I tried three times, then gave up.
> 
> Folks, this increase in MIME attachments is getting out of hand. 
> People are reading this list on a variety of machines, from PDAs to 
> Amigas to VT100s to Unix boxes to Windows.
> 
> I am filtering Corrain's stuff into my trash file until someone 
> (else) tells me his stuff is no longer MIME-encrusted.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan  1 06:49:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 08:49:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231212042.01c9a188@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010101084623.31533Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 1 Jan 2001, Van Donald wrote:

> A chat program needs a server, or interacting network of servers to 
> advertise presence.

No, they don't. They do need a persistent network presence however.
Distinctly different things.

> This server could also act as a public key server, 

Which is pointless. The only(!) group that is excluded from IRC at this
point is anyone who doesn't have the brains to request a session key
through the server.

> invisibly to user, guaranteeing stability of identity -- that this presence 
> was the same entity as had been logged on under the same name in previous 
> sessions.

Using pk's doesn't do this since I can loan my key as easy as I might own
a password. Besides how do you know somebody isn't diddling with the
central server?

Any centralized system is bound to be defeated through a 'least effort'
attack on the servers. As a result of the server going down the entire
system has now been breached and the trust in the operators is nil.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Jan  1 07:22:36 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:22:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: World in 2015
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010101092217.31533W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



You should check out the CIA article on Drudge...

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From upshaw.archer073 at gmail.com  Mon Jan  1 06:27:34 2001
From: upshaw.archer073 at gmail.com (Jonathon Murillo)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:27:34 -0500
Subject: Stronger climaxes and orgasms
Message-ID: <200604201249.k3KCnr2Q000317@proton.jfet.org>

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http://nv1a.dotinworlds.info/mm





From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  1 12:32:53 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:32:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Digital Cash with dynamic range
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101011219470.29074-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Most of the protocols I'm finding for digital cash don't have much 
in the way of dynamic range.  Generally, there is a range of values 
that they are designed for (rarely more than a factor of a thousand 
or so from smallest to largest) and smaller payments become 
impossible and larger payments become impractical. 

The problem is particularly severe for offline protocols, where you 
can't get the bank online to make change or issue arbitrary-valued 
coins. 

Does anyone know any happy exceptions to this rule, where payments 
ranging from a millionth of a token up through several million  
tokens could all be practical?  (ie, dynamic range of the twelfth 
or higher order?)

Anyway, the "practical in arbitrary amounts" assumption is pretty 
fundamental to useful money.  We achieve it through bank drafts, 
checks, transfer orders, etc.  But these instruments are not as 
clear how to do in a digital world where anonymity is preserved. 

In particular, I haven't found low-level details of how the "Mojo" 
tokens in use by the new MojoNation stuff work. Are they just an 
implementation of a well-documented protocol, or did they do something 
new?

				Bear







From marketing at netoneplus.com  Mon Jan  1 13:01:18 2001
From: marketing at netoneplus.com (marketing at netoneplus.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:01:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Information on your website
Message-ID: <200101012101.QAA07951@jxmls04.se.mediaone.net>

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From rsw at mit.edu  Mon Jan  1 13:46:51 2001
From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:46:51 -0500
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 06:56:26PM -0500
References: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com> <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>

David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a 
> secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some
> other existing, insecure chat program)

MIT uses Zephyr for text messaging.  It's not secure, but it can
authenticate with Kerberos.  

There are "homebrew" extensions to have encrypted sessions; basically,
since zephyr is 8-bit safe, you can put whatever you want inside the
message, including (non-armored) encrypted data.

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From GWAUGUSTADR at email.msn.com  Mon Jan  1 17:56:21 2001
From: GWAUGUSTADR at email.msn.com (GWAUGUSTADR)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:56:21 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <003e01c07460$ef70bf80$3acb193f@oemcomputer>


Gary and Jill WaltersWE ARE IN RECIEPT OF INFORMATION ON WARREN ANDERSON. WE HAVE THE TOP AMERICAN ASTONAOGHTS CAPABLE OF BRINGING THE MIR DOWN. WE ARE IN CONTACT WITH THE RUSSIANS NOW, IF YOU CAN PUT US IN TOUCH WITH HIM RIGHT AWAY TIME IS OF ESSEINCE. OUR GOAL WOULD BE TO HAVE THE RUSSIANS REBOOST THE MIR INTO A 3 YEAR ORBIT ACCORDING TO CAMANDER DAVID SCOTT THE APPOLLO CAMANDER AND OUR SCIENTIST HAVE A WAY OF SLINNKY WRAP PROJECT TO BRING MIR DOWN AND DISPLAY IT IN AN INTERNATIONAL SPAC AND TECHNOLOGY THEME PARK. SYMBOL RAMO, IS CURRENTLY DEVELOPEING AN ACQUSITION TO ASSIST VANGUARD SPACE TECHNOLOGY AND INTERNATIONAL SPACE TECHNOLOGY, WITH AN UNDERWRITING THIS YEARS LAUNCH PROGRAMS FOR SATAELITE RECOVERY. WE AT RAMO ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE ONLY PRIVATE GROUP CAPABLE OF DOING THIS TYPE OF RECOVERY IN THE INTIRE WORLD. ALL TOP NOTCH SCIENTISTS, SPACE CAMMANDERS, FORMER SPACE COMMAND CENTER DIRECTORS, SECURITY  SPACE DIRECTOR MISSION READY INSURANCE COMPANIES ALREADY IN PLACE ETC, PLEASE RESPOND ASAP. TELEPHONE # 7027327385 OR 702 2018581OR EMAIL    
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From thomasstern at netzero.net  Mon Jan  1 18:45:49 2001
From: thomasstern at netzero.net (thomasstern)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:45:49 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c07466$1e312f80$356b0404@valuedcu>

I have over 100 properties am looking to trade or swap or exchange most of them are single family homes and some are commerical and they are located in Lubbock, Texas will be willing to look at anything and they are all free and clear with no leins they are excellent for 1031 exchanges please feel free to call at 806-797-6481 or email for list Thankyou Thomas Stern
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From thomasstern at netzero.net  Mon Jan  1 19:09:13 2001
From: thomasstern at netzero.net (thomasstern)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 21:09:13 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c07469$631543e0$356b0404@valuedcu>

I have over 100 properties am looking to trade or swap or exchange most of them are single family homes and some are commerical and they are located in Lubbock, Texas will be willing to look at anything and they are all free and clear with no leins they are excellent for 1031 exchanges please feel free to call at 806-797-6481 or email for list Thankyou Thomas Stern
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 21:28:09 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 21:28:09 -0800
Subject: Reminder... Mac Crypto  Jan 29th - Feb 1st
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101212809.00b07100@idiom.com>


RAH isn't forwarding to Cypherpunks at the moment

--- begin forwarded text



From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 21:53:30 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 21:53:30 -0800
Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California  
  Liberalism]
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6731b57df98@[207.111.241.182]>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101215330.02203d90@idiom.com>


At 09:02 PM 12/29/00 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>What these new plants ARE NOT is the kind of large nuclear plant 
>comparable in size to the highly successful Diablo Canyon Nuclear 
>Power Station. That plant was completed more than 15 years ago. It is 
>in an unpopulated area, between Half Moon Bay and Pismo Beach, and 
>west of San Luis Obispo.

Heh.  I drove by that one this afternoon after visiting the hot springs.  
As long as there's no major earthquake in the nearby fault before tomorrow, 
I don't expect to be glowing in the dark when I next see you, 
but it was a seriously stupid place to build a big nuke plant,
even if it's not in anybody's backyard (except Vinnie's,
and the few other Cypherpunks in the area, and Cal Poly SLO, and...)
However, without some rate relief, PG&E may be out of business
before the Big One hits, so the difficulty of cleanup won't be
their, um, fault.

		Geothermally yours, 


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan  1 22:35:38 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:35:38 -0800
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>
References: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>
 <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <p04320411b67726e68d23@[10.1.1.42]>


>David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
>>  Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a
>>  secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some
>>  other existing, insecure chat program)
>
>MIT uses Zephyr for text messaging.  It's not secure, but it can
>authenticate with Kerberos.
>
>There are "homebrew" extensions to have encrypted sessions; basically,
>since zephyr is 8-bit safe, you can put whatever you want inside the
>message, including (non-armored) encrypted data.

	He's talking about gale, www.gale.org.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 22:59:53 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:59:53 -0800
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012310249510.19834-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <200012310213.eBV2DAa15964@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101225953.02221b90@idiom.com>


At 02:52 AM 12/31/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?"
>
>This is in the FAQ:
>"EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable,
>    uniform, chat environment."
>
>and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why
>this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people
>give as their reasons for a new IRC network?

Simplification of protocols so they can sell out to Microsoft/AOL?  :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From thomasstern at netzero.net  Mon Jan  1 21:16:23 2001
From: thomasstern at netzero.net (thomasstern)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:16:23 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0747b$26ef72c0$036b0404@valuedcu>

I have over 100 properties am looking to trade or swap or exchange most of them are single family homes and some are commerical and they are located in Lubbock, Texas will be willing to look at anything and they are all free and clear with no leins they are excellent for 1031 exchanges please feel free to call at 806-797-6481 or email for list Thankyou Thomas Stern
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From enenkio at webtv.net  Tue Jan  2 01:36:05 2001
From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:36:05 -1000 (HST)
Subject: EnenKio
Message-ID: <11515-3A51A105-16147@storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net>



:  

:        Allan P Stayman Will he hang for Lies,Fraud and Disinformation
About EnenKio or will Akaka,Inouye,State Dept. X Pres. Bush or Gore
: From: Robert Moore --  www.enenkio.org

: Contact: Steve Hansen ( Steve.Hansen at mail.house.gov) (202) 225-7749 or
Arturo Silva ( Arturo.Silva at mail.house.gov) (202) 225-4063 To: National
Desk/Environmental Reporter July 12, 2000 Inspector General Testifies
About Illegal Political & Lobbying Activity At Department Of Interior
"Most Egregious Example I've Seen" In 30 Years Of Law Enforcement
Washington, D.C. - The Inspector General for the U.S. Department of the
Interior today outlined numerous examples of illegal political and
lobbying activity at the Department which led him to refer the matter
for possible criminal prosecution against an agency employee. Earl E.
Devaney, Inspector General for the Department of the Interior, testified
before the U.S. House Committee on Resources that former Interior
official David North's political activities were "the most egregious
example I've seen" in 30 years of law enforcement. North "retired" last
year immediately after the Resources Committee began an investigation
into North's political activities. Devaney testified that North
conducted political activity from his federal office during work hours
against Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX), Majority Whip Tom DeLay
(R-TX), and U.S. Reps. Phil English (R-PA), Brian Bilbray (R-CA) and
Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). In addition, Devaney testified that North
sought to assist Democrat Congressional candidates and had contact with
the Democrat National Committee and the Democrat Congressional Campaign
Committee. Clinton's Department Of Justice Refuses To Prosecute Case
Inspector General Devaney also stated that he was disappointed that the
Department of Justice declined to prosecute North for criminal actions.
U.S. Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), the Chairman of the Committee, responded
that he wasn't surprised "considering the Clinton-Gore Administration's
well-documented manipulation of the Justice Department to protect
illegal activity by its political appointees." "This is the most
partisan and politically-motivated Justice Department in the history of
the nation," Young said. Another Clinton Political Appointee Is Under
Investigation By Government Devaney also explained to the Committee that
Allen Stayman, the former Director of the Office of Insular Affairs, was
under investigation by the Office of Special Counsel for possible
illegal political and lobbying activities. Devaney said his
investigation uncovered evidence that Stayman was aware of some of
North's political and lobbying activities. The Resources Committee is
also investigating actions by Ferdinand "Danny" Aranza, the current
Director of the Office of Insular Affairs. Both Aranza and Stayman
testified under oath at today's hearing under subpoena. "I've never
high-ranking officials suffer such convenient memory lapses in my 27
years in Congress," Young said. "Despite the denials and all of the
'I-can't-recalls', we will continue to pursue to this issue." Inspector
General Devaney also testified that North assisted organizations like
the Global Survival Network and helped prepare a "report" that
questioned connections between Members of Congress and garment
executives. The organization later submitted the report to Congress.
Devaney also testified that North provided confidential information
about private individuals to a reporter. Chairman Young's Opening
Statement "After a year-long oversight review, this Committee has
unearthed overwhelming documentation of numerous highly unethical and
improper actions by federal employees of the Office of Insular Affairs,
or OIA. "We have been able to substantiate multiple acts of partisan
political activity, lobbying with appropriated funds, producing
materials and collecting information under false pretenses, and
violations of the privacy of individuals and businesses - all courtesy
of the U.S. taxpayer. "In short, we have found massive waste, fraud, and
abuse at the Office of Insular Affairs. This is what Congressional
oversight is supposed to be all about. "OIA's highly questionable
activities, at taxpayer expense, include: researching and writing
political campaign press releases and candidate position papers for
candidates to present as campaign materials; researching and drafting
partisan memos and press releases for Democratic party offices,
including the Democratic National Committee, the Democratic National
Congressional Committee, The House Democratic Caucus, and state party
organizations, to present as their own campaign materials; editing,
researching and writing reports, position papers, and press releases for
lobbying organizations to use to influence the outcome of legislation
before Congress; hiring private investigators to nose around Saipan and
even Hong Kong to dig up information on the garment industry; digging up
private, sensitive information about private citizens they don't like,
and then releasing that information - full names, Social Security
numbers, Alien registration information - to investigative journalists.
The Committee has subpoenaed and reviewed the contents of hundreds of
thousands of documents, as well as the contents of six agency computers
and dozens of computer diskettes. At the same time as these materials
were being provided to the Committee, the Department was also providing
them to the Interior Department Inspector General, Earl Devaney.
Interior's own documents show that one purpose of this referral was the
hope that an ongoing IG investigation might be a successful excuse to
stop producing materials to the Committee. In fact, this excuse was
attempted. It did not work then, and it will not work now. This
Committee must not - and will not - turn its back on its duty to oversee
that activities of officials at the Interior Department - particularly
when there are specific and credible allegations they are using the
resources authorized by this Committee, for partisan and inappropriate
purposes. Nevertheless, I'm sure you will hear the same old song and
dance from the Democrat minority: this has been a witch-hunt, this is
partisan, there is an active criminal investigation, so we should just
drop it. We've seen this defense tactic used so many times from the
Minority in this Administration, and in this Committee, that it amazes
even me. But let me remind the Democrats that if it weren't for the
inquiry being conducted by this Committee, there would be no criminal
investigation anywhere. It was only after - and as a direct result of -
the opening of this inquiry and the issuance of the initial subpoenas,
that the Interior Department forwarded the information to the Office of
Special Counsel and the Inspector General. At each step of the inquiry,
as this Committee has gathered more information from the Administration,
they have had to forward it also to the Inspector General and the OSC.
That is how Mr. Devaney learned about the abuses going on at OIA. So now
we will hear from the Inspector General, a career law enforcement
professional, and a Clinton Appointee. Mr. Devaney delivered a copy of
his final report to the Committee on Monday, and appears to have found
the same level of waste, fraud, and abuse at OIA that the Committee has
found. So, unless you believe in a grand conspiracy involving the
Congress and the entire office of the IG appointed by Clinton, this is
not a partisan witch hunt. This is about doing our job: protecting the
taxpayer, protecting privacy, protecting against waste, fraud, and
abuse. You'll also hear from my friends in the Democrat minority that
the improper activities were only carried out by one rogue operator,
David North, and that he's now off the payroll, so let's just drop it.
But Mr. North's "retirement" doesn't absolve this Committee of its duty
to get to the bottom of things, and to find out who else may have been
involved. That's why we're here today, and that's why we have subpoenaed
Mr. North's two superiors, former OIA Director Allen Stayman, and former
Deputy Director Danny Aranza, the current Director. They had the duty to
monitor what Mr. North was up to. Lastly - and most loudly - you'll hear
from the Democrats that what was going on in the garment industry in the
CNMI1 was so bad that it justified what North and others were up to. Let
me be clear: This hearing is NOT about allegations of worker abuse on
the CNMI. We have had a CODEL2 to the CNMI, and we have held a hearing
on the CNMI, but THIS hearing is about abuses in the OIA, which this
Committee has a duty to oversee. And we will NOT be de-railed. If
federal officials are allowed to break any laws they want, to violate
people's rights, just because they believe their cause is just, then
Katie bar the door. The message to all federal employees would be that
constitutional and statutory rights don't matter, as long as big brother
in the government thinks the cause is just. If the Democrat minority
gets its way, then who gets to draw the line? What would my colleagues
say if it was a Republican Administration abusing people's privacy and
conducting partisan political activity, because they thought the cause
was just? If the Minority thinks what went on here was OK, and that we
should just ignore the partisan activity and the lobbying and the
privacy violations, then they should go on the record and say so. Then
the next Administration, and the American people, will know where they
stand." 1. CNMI - Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands. 2. CODEL -
Congressional Delegation. For more information, please check the House
Committee on Resources Home Page at http://resourcescommittee.house.gov
:  AMERCIA REMOVE IT OR PROVE IT ! www.enenkio.org -

Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade
Mission
DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall
Islands
http://www.enenkio.org




From mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  2 01:40:29 2001
From: mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com (mortgagepro55 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:40:29
Subject: YOUR MORTGAGE LEADS!!
Message-ID: <114.282315.806205@yahoo.com>



                 "DO YOU NEED "FRESH" MORTGAGE LEADS??"

           We have Fresh Targeted Mortgage Leads Available.

                      **High Closing Ratios**

     "Fresh" leads of home owners and buyers that have asked to 
               be contacted by mortgage professionals. 

                     This is NOT a mailing list!  

  These are Real People taking the time and effort to profile themselves and asked for a mortgage lender to contact them. 

 All Leads Are EXCLUSIVE and turn around time to you is less than 24 hours!!

                 For more information phone 807-577-3950. 


P.S. Please forward this email to the owner of the company.  They will be glad you did.





From anonymous at openpgp.net  Mon Jan  1 23:03:12 2001
From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:03:12 -0500
Subject: New attack on digital piracy
Message-ID: <9183c5a4e2944ed47d90a580c2f9a80a@noisebox.remailer.org>


Coalition pushes storage-based copy-prevention

BY DAWN C. CHMIELEWSKI
Mercury News 

Hollywood has teamed up with some of the biggest players in computer storage technology to build a copy-prevention scheme into every hard drive and memory card -- opening a new front in the war against online piracy.

If widely adopted, the technology would make it more difficult for consumers to duplicate copyrighted files such as music and movies without the permission of the companies that own the rights. Hard drives and memory cards are used to store information on everything from personal computers and MP3 music players to digital cameras and palm-size organizers.

Hollywood and the companies designing the anti-copying technology bill it as a revolutionary way to combat piracy. The entertainment industry has been fighting on many fronts, asking the courts to shut down online music-swapping services such as Napster and halt the distribution of software that allows bootleggers to make pristine copies of DVD movies.

But critics say this latest effort, led by an IBM researcher at the company's Almaden Valley campus in San Jose, will prevent users from making even routine copies, such as backups, of files they legally have a right to copy.

``I think it's disgraceful,'' said Richard M. Stallman, a leader in the free software movement and author of ``The Hackers Dictionary.'' ``Everyone's rights are being trampled for the sake of these companies.''

The brainchild of `4C'

The technology is the brainchild of IBM, Intel, Toshiba and Matsushita -- a group of leading hardware makers collectively known as the ``4C.'' The rights-protection technology, dubbed Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM), uses a combination of encryption and scrambling to prevent unauthorized copying. It is currently awaiting approval from a national standards body that sets rules for new features offered on storage devices like hard drives.

CPRM is one of a series of copy-protection technologies designed to thwart the wholesale duplication of copyrighted materials that file-swapping services like Napster make possible. Watermarking is another approach being developed by other firms. That technology places hidden bits of digital code on a song, so labels and artists can track illicit copies. 

IBM researcher Jeffrey Lotspiech, who developed the latest copy-protection technology, said each piece of blank media -- say, a flash memory card or an IBM Microdrive -- comes with a unique serial number.

When a consumer buys the rights to make an authorized copy of, for example, the Barenaked Ladies' latest CD, the rights-protection software uses the serial number on the blank media to create a unique ``key'' that only an authorized player can unlock.

``It uses the media -- the dumb media -- as the source of the key information that allows the two of them to come up with a common key -- the recorder to make the recording and the player to play it in the future,'' said Lotspiech.

It's resistant to hacking because of the sheer number of key combinations that could be created -- ``greater than the number of protons in the universe,'' Lotspiech said in an IBM research publication describing the the technology.

CPRM would do nothing to stop Napster's 37 million users from giving away music to any stranger who asks. But new tracks released with this protection would be worthless.

Microdrives

Lotspiech said IBM plans to use the technology in its popular Microdrives -- stamp-sized hard drives now used to store photographs in digital cameras and music on digital players. And SanDisk has also expressed interest in using it for its flash memory, commonly used to store information in MP3 players and digital cameras.

The first products could begin appearing by next summer.

It's one of several copy-protection schemes designed to meet the criteria set by the recording industry-sponsored Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI), a group established to create a standard for online music distribution.

``So far, content companies have been reluctant to deliver their content in digital form out of fear that piracy would further increase,'' said Leonardo Chiariglione, SDMI's executive director. ``But if there is a way of protecting their content, then content companies will put all of their content out. And that would benefit all consumers.''

The Motion Picture Association of America sees broader applications for the technology. If it's effective at thwarting piracy, it could speed direct digital distribution of movies -- either over the Internet or through digital TV set-top boxes. The movie industry has been reluctant to widely distribute its work because of the fear of Napsterization of films.

``What we have with copy-once content protection technology is the ability to go beyond just a pay-per-view business model to go to a pay-per-copy business model,'' said Brad Hunt, the MPAA's chief technical officer.

In order for Internet delivery to occur, Hunt said the copy-protection technology would have to extend to the computer hard drive -- a proposal that other technologists find chilling.

``We've been keeping an eye on technologies that are designed to remove capabilities from the people who buy the machines -- particularly when it's removing a capability not for the benefit of the buyer .�.�.� but for the benefit of some third party, like a movie company,'' said John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a San Francisco-based organization that advocates free speech online.

Gilmore said copyright laws were never meant to extend a movie studio's reach into a consumer's hard drive.

Contact Dawn Chmielewski at dchmielewski at sjmercury.com or (714) 669-9913.







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan  1 23:23:46 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:23:46 -0500
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <20010101164651.B7707@positron.mit.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010101232323.00a8fb10@idiom.com>



David Honig <honig at sprynet.com> wrote:
>> Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a 
>> secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some
>> other existing, insecure chat program)

Yes, it was Gale http://www.gale.org .
You may note the relationship of its name to Zephyr's :-)

Version 0.99a came out in July; Version 0.99cheese was sometime
unspecified last millenium.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  2 05:27:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:27:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Philippines - Public Announcement - December 31, 2000 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102072700.8211I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:10:06 -0500
From: PA List Manager <statelists at STATE.GOV>
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Philippines - Public Announcement - December 31, 2000

Philippines - Public Announcement
December 31, 2000

On December 30, 2000, the American Embassy in Manila, Philippines made the
following announcement to the local American community in the Philippines.

There were several explosions in the Metro Manila area on December 30, 2000.
The first one occurred at approximately 12 PM and the latest at about 2PM.
The devices went off at the LRT station at Blumentritt; Plaza Ferguson,
which is near the Embassy compound; Pasay Road near the Dusit Hotel in
Makati; the cargo terminal at Ninoy Aquino International Airport (NAIA); and
on a bus in Cubao, Quezon City. Unconfirmed reports of casualties indicate
more than 12 dead and 50 injured. No American citizens are reported among
the casualties and there has been no damage to U.S. Government facilities.

The following is very important guidance for American citizens:

--The Embassy strongly encourages all Americans to remain at their
residences for the remainder of December 30 unless it is absolutely
necessary to do otherwise. Please direct any further questions to the
Embassy's Marine Security Guard at 523-1001, extension 2311 or 2688.

--If you are in the vicinity when such an incident occurs, leave the area
immediately. Do not approach the scene of a bombing or simply stand by
during the initial investigative phase.

--If you see a suspicious object or package, do not disturb it. Immediately
notify an appropriate official, such as a police officer or building guard,
and then depart the premises.

--If you are involved in any of the above, immediately notify the Embassy
with details.

All Americans should continue to review their personal security, remain
vigilant in their personal surroundings and exercise caution. Please remain
particularly alert when out in a public setting.

For further general information on travel to the Philippines, consult the
Department's latest Consular Information Sheet for the Philippines and the
Public Announcement for the Philippines dated September 1, 2000 which this
Announcement supplements. This Public Announcement expires on March 30,
2001.

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs.html




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  2 05:30:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:30:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 1 in 700 emails contains a virus...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102073026.8211K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.theregister.co.uk

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan  2 08:08:26 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:08:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAEDMCHAA.andrew@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101020803080.29583-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

>Further more, IRC does NOT take that much bandwidth, there is a myth that
>efnet NEEDS OC3 links etc because of the traffic that is passed across it,
>what people dont say is that the servers actually only run at between 1 and
>2 megabit/second if you remove the traffic from DDOS and attacks like smurf.

I have a question: given that half the bandwidth and almost all 
of the spike bandwidth is devoted to smurfing, why don't IRC 
servers just block multicast ping? I mean, okay, so it's in the 
kernel code instead of being a separate application.  It still 
shouldn't be hard to come up with a patch that killed smurfing.

Pings should never be forwarded to multiple hosts.

				Bear






From andrew at security.za.net  Tue Jan  2 00:20:28 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:20:28 +0200
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010101225953.02221b90@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAEDMCHAA.andrew@security.za.net>


I must admit Im rather sad to see efnet going this route, having been on
efnet for years and participated and become and active member of many of the
more underground channels on the network, I find it sad to see that the only
irc network where anarchy truely ruled has come to this.

I can however see their reasoning, having looked at efnext, I notice you can
no longer do certain things, /links doesnt work, which means the hubs are
hidden, and splits cant be seen, this means far less smurfing, because there
is no point to smurfing  a leaf server.

You also cannot see the servers someone is linked to if you /whois them,
this stops a number of denial of service attacks.

As for IRC Operators getting involved in channel affairs, if this happens,
people WILL run to another network, maybe I live under an illusion, but I
believe that the anarchy on networks like efnet is inbred in the people, and
is not so much about the network where the people reside, but the people
themselves, and if the anarchy and the control of their own channels is
taken from them, the people will get up and move somewhere where they still
have control.  Their is NOTHING forcing people to move to efnext, and
speaking from experience, setting up and running irc servers is easy, lets
face it, with a decent *nix system you can have an ircd up and running in a
matter of 5 or 10 minutes, an entire network is no more than an hour if you
are linking 10 systems.

Further more, IRC does NOT take that much bandwidth, there is a myth that
efnet NEEDS OC3 links etc because of the traffic that is passed across it,
what people dont say is that the servers actually only run at between 1 and
2 megabit/second if you remove the traffic from DDOS and attacks like smurf.

As for myself, I will still be on efnet, but other than that I will retire
to blabbernet, sure there are services there, and sure its small, but its
non-censored, anarchial, anything goes, and people dont tell me what to do.

Btw, another point I forgot to mention, there is encrypted IRC out there,
there are encrypted protocols built into scrollz for public channel, dcc,
and private message.  If anyone wants more information contact me, I might
also try and release a patch for bitchx and ircII to do the same thing if I
get the time to do some coding and can figure out the crypto code (I dont do
much crypto code unfortunatly)

Anyway, the above are just my opinions.

Andrew Alston / Vortexia
irc.blabber.net - Server Administrator


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 9:00 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext


At 02:52 AM 12/31/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?"
>
>This is in the FAQ:
>"EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable,
>    uniform, chat environment."
>
>and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why
>this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people
>give as their reasons for a new IRC network?

Simplification of protocols so they can sell out to Microsoft/AOL?  :-)


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From adam at homeport.org  Tue Jan  2 08:30:10 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:30:10 -0500
Subject: Digital Cash with dynamic range
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101011219470.29074-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101011219470.29074-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010102113009.A27536@weathership.homeport.org>


On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 12:32:53PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| Most of the protocols I'm finding for digital cash don't have much 
| in the way of dynamic range.  Generally, there is a range of values 
| that they are designed for (rarely more than a factor of a thousand 
| or so from smallest to largest) and smaller payments become 
| impossible and larger payments become impractical. 
| 
| The problem is particularly severe for offline protocols, where you 
| can't get the bank online to make change or issue arbitrary-valued 
| coins. 
| 
| Does anyone know any happy exceptions to this rule, where payments 
| ranging from a millionth of a token up through several million  
| tokens could all be practical?  (ie, dynamic range of the twelfth 
| or higher order?)
|
| Anyway, the "practical in arbitrary amounts" assumption is pretty 
| fundamental to useful money.  We achieve it through bank drafts, 
| checks, transfer orders, etc.  But these instruments are not as 
| clear how to do in a digital world where anonymity is preserved. 

"Teller can not make change for bills over $20."
"Visa/MC minimum charge: $15"
"$30 fee for all wire transfers"

So, I don't agree with you that we have a payment system that works
for arbitrary amounts.  Silly laws aside, paying for a multi-million
dollar purchase with cash is irksomely difficult, because
multiple thousands of dollar bills are bulky.  (I'm assuming that
forgery is an important deterrent to having million dollar bills.  I
know I wouldn't want to accept one.)

| In particular, I haven't found low-level details of how the "Mojo" 
| tokens in use by the new MojoNation stuff work. Are they just an 
| implementation of a well-documented protocol, or did they do something 
| new?

I think that the Mojo guys are using un-blinded Chaumian-style cash.
(See Doug Barnes' work on 'identity-agnostic money')

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  2 09:59:01 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:59:01 -0500
Subject: 1 in 700 emails contains a virus...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102073026.8211K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:30:57AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010102073026.8211K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010102125901.C18538@cluebot.com>


Jim, are you being intentionally obtuse? Not everyone reads your
email messages the same day; the home page changes. Send an exact
URL, please. It's only polite.

-Declan

On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:30:57AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Tue Jan  2 02:16:27 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:16:27 +0300
Subject: Q@L[E ONQKEDMHE OPNCP@LL[ AEQOK@RMN
Message-ID: <200101021019.CAA29283@toad.com>


QNTR AEQOK at RMN 
                                                 www.soft2001.nm.ru




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Jan  2 11:37:33 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:37:33 -0500
Subject: Alien hunters devise world's smallest microphone
Message-ID: <3A522DFD.A1361B40@sunder.net>



http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15755.html

Alien hunters devise world's smallest microphone
By: Lucy Sherriff
Posted: 02/01/2001 at 15:51 GMT
Researchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory claim to have devised the most sensitive listening device ever. Designed to enable
robot explorers to listen out for life on other planets, the tiny microphone could theoretically detect the sound of a single cell
growing. 


<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From comeback at pogo.com  Tue Jan  2 15:01:42 2001
From: comeback at pogo.com (comeback at pogo.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:01:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Come back to pogo.com!
Message-ID: <23736436.978476502902.JavaMail.cdc-ops@chef.pogo.com>

Dear cypherpunk0,

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We're inviting you to come back to pogo.com and see all the fun you've been missing. To show how much we care, we'll give you 250 tokens AND a chance to win $500.00 in CASH just for coming back.

Account name: cypherpunk0
Password: password

Your Token Balance: 3577

Check out some of our newest and most popular games:

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What more do we need to say - it's a chance to win ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

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This is one of our most popular games; over 500,000 people played in the first month!

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This is another of our most popular games; over 300,000 people played in the first month!

Jump to the games! Go to: http://play.pogo.com/ten/misc/welcome-back.jsp?site=pogo
AOL members, <a href="http://play.pogo.com/ten/misc/welcome-back.jsp?site=pogo">click here to jump to the games</a>!

To unsubscribe from all future pogo.com mailings, go to:
http://play.pogo.com/ten/unsubscribe/remove-e-mail.jsp?pid=klmtqtvlkvlmtngr&site=pogo
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From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Jan  2 12:08:28 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:08:28 -0500
Subject: "...A Heaping dose of FUD..."
Message-ID: <3A52353C.8655857E@sunder.net>



http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15731.html

Clinton Admin goes out in a blaze of cyber-terror
By: Thomas C Greene in Washington
Posted: 30/12/2000 at 20:06 GMT
No Clinton Administration swan song would be complete without a heaping dose of cyber-crime FUD. We have not been disappointed.
National Security Advisor Richard Clark and National Infrastructure Protection Centre (NIPC) Director Michael Vatis are clanging the
cymbals again, warning that this year's New Year's cyber attacks might be even more devastating than last year's New Year's cyber
attacks.


You remember last year's New Year's cyber attacks, right? 


Right. Neither do we. But this time the sky really is falling, we are assured. Apparently, a vast number of personal computers have
been turned into "zombies" (clients) for the Mother of all DDoS attacks, expected to commence New Year's Eve.

We think the only real "zombies" plugged into the Net are the living dead who would believe this drivel.


<SNIP>

$30.5 million for Digital Storm, an FBI programme upgrading old-fashioned analogue signals collection gear with slick new digital
stuff; $100 million for an overall FBI technology upgrade called the Information Sharing Initiative; 





-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From geronik at csd.uoc.gr  Tue Jan  2 05:32:02 2001
From: geronik at csd.uoc.gr (FRANKY)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:32:02 +0200 (EET)
Subject: In need of help ...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010101215330.02203d90@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.30.0101021516570.19773-100000@pella.csd.uch.gr>




	Happy New Year to every member of this list!
I'm Alexis- I've asked for your help one more time- and once again I'm
in need of your knowledge.
This time I'm interested in security based on hardware. I understand
there are some hardware components providing security in data exchange.
The question is where can i find more information about such chips
(specific Url's maybe).
What really interests me, is to find out which of these chips (if any) are
allowed (by the US Law) to be exported out of the United States.
I you know something more please let me know!

I would really appreciate your help.
Thanx in advance.
Alexis





From hem_nadia at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  2 05:55:06 2001
From: hem_nadia at hotmail.com (nadia em)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:55:06 +0200
Subject: soul catcher
Message-ID: <F2827eEmP9CDBHy3Spw00007b2c@hotmail.com>


Sir, I read your article about the soul catcher and I would like to let you 
know that this device exists in my head since 2ed January 1988 after I had a 
car accident after quitting work for some government relative who harassed 
me both sexually and verbally and then had this thing inserted in my head so 
he could harass me endlessly, I am an engineer and I've been looking for 
evidence since the accident and at last in last mars I found the articles 
about the s.c. , I've been sending letters to influential people since the 
accident, I smell strange odors, my eyes glow in the dark when I open them 
but I don't see that in a mirror, the sound of radio waves transmitting I 
keep hearing in my left ear endlessly since the accident, I can't describe 
how horrid it is to be in this situation, there are more details than you 
can imagine and all horrid, I would like to forget about the whole thing but 
that thing doesn't let me with the audio visual effects I keep getting ,not 
to mention what have my life become, to put it in a few words I'm ruined and 
if I sound paranoid don't believe it cause I'm not , I'm just made to seem 
this way and this device is more than just a lethal weapon it doesn't  just 
kill it mutilates one's being in every since of the word and with the 
unbelievable amount of corruption in this country it is very easy to get 
away with mass murder if you know the  "wrong" people like this very high 
ranked government relative , don�t know what to do more than to commit 
suicide and I don't want this thing that is supposed to be man and human get 
away with such a deed because if he does then this world has come to an end, 
rich people won't just kill poor people or use them but they will be their 
cyber slaves, and I'm not poor at all actually I'm considered rich I'm just 
not a billionaire like he is, endless torture for honest loving people who 
won't sell their souls, ethics and loved ones for money, the end of 
humanity.
This is not a story or some kind of wise crack this is real and happening 
and I want to end it but unless I find some one to help me it won't, much 
more painful details.
S.O.S.
Engineer/ nadia el mofty
1-b, messaha st. dokki, giza, egypt


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Jan  2 17:43:47 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:43:47 -0800
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <200012311801.eBVI1Ma16315@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1001231092559.31533C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010102174243.07ae0e00@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 10:01 AM 12/31/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
>Jim Choate writes:
>
>Making people "part of the process" is one of the first things one learns
>in management.  How to simultaneously make sure they have zero chance of
>actually altering what you have planned for them is the second thing.
>
> > They already are, and have been for years. Usenet is another service that
> > could use some sort of p2p datahaven environment. This should be one of
> > the Cypherpunk 'target projects'.
>
>Uh, right.  Let us know when you have working code.

It shouldn't be very hard to bridge Usenet and Mojo Nation.

steve




From roy at scytale.com  Tue Jan  2 16:14:30 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:14:30 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010102191028.00ac6c20@pop3.idt.net>


A quote from http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,20985,00.html:

" Criminal organizations appear to be using the proceeds of
    IP-infringing products to facilitate a variety of enterprises,
    including guns, drugs, pornography and even terrorism. Invariably,
    when there is intellectual property crime, there is tax evasion and
    money laundering."

Note that last sentence.

Full report at: 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/WH/EOP/NSC/html/documents/pub45270/pub45270index.html




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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:01:38 -0800
Subject: Important New Affiliate Program has Full Global Reach. You Are Invited.
Message-ID: <200101030401.UAA23040@shell1.webquarry.com>



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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Jan  2 18:14:11 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:14:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010102174243.07ae0e00@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101022113380.28872-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> >
> >Uh, right.  Let us know when you have working code.
> 
> It shouldn't be very hard to bridge Usenet and Mojo Nation.

If memory serves, there is a project underway to do "usenet-on-freenet." 

-David





From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Tue Jan  2 22:26:05 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:26:05 -0800 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C3D@exchange.sfocorp.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jan  2 19:39:23 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:39:23 -0500
Subject: monkey-wrenching efnext
Message-ID: <200101030339.WAA01228@modemcable069.22-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



So it appears these efnext people are letting the administrator
control freak method to "fix" problems.  (The tendency to impose more
authentication, more logging, more central control -- instead of
fixing broken protocols -- the easy way out because it's simpler to
implement, though politically and technically broken).

Clearly they are making a mistake.

What could be done to persuade them or educate them that endeavour is
bad for net privacy?  

Some possible technical / social engineering backlashes:

- someone will create some abuse that causes the central
  administrators and thought police to become legally liable.  Perhaps
  even designer abuse -- "abuse" anonymously created for the effect it
  will have on the operators.  (Where's Dimitri Vulis when we need
  him?)

- they are probably dumb and have done a bad job of making their
  changes -- their new centralised controls will get hacked, and their
  network will prove even more susceptible to catastrophic DoS than
  the original ircd.

- people aren't really trying hard to disrupt IRC -- there are
  doubtless many much more malicious and harder to stop ways to
  disrupt it.  People might demonstrate some of these attacks on their
  central failure points.

Adam




From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jan  2 20:04:48 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:04:48 -0500
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext 
Message-ID: <200101030404.XAA01320@modemcable069.22-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



> One of the problems that efnext is trying to address, and a cause of
> network instability is DOS attacks against servers by little kiddies
> that want to take over channels.

So what they should do is fix those problems robustly.  Instead
they're using central control as a "fix".  They get to decide what is
abuse.  They probably don't appreciate the kinds of problems that can
arise from that (see my other comments about designer abuse and the
implied risks of assuming editorial control that some ISPs have faced
etc).

It's typically easier to design hierarchical or even single central
control systems than distributed systems.  DoS resistance is hard too.
The real solution to Distributed DoS is Distributed Service and
they're headed in the wrong direction with that.

> Not that I'm for or against the new network, but it seems that
> building a consensus and peer review of the protocols would be a
> good thing.

Indeed.  They're probably relatively clue free also.  (Just downloaded
the tar ball to reverse engineer what they are actually doing).

> As for the fear that this will lead to central control and
> monitoring of the IRC network, my guess is that IRC is already
> heavily monitored.  

The problem is central control not monitoring -- monitoring affects
privacy, central control affects free speech.

(It's in clear text already, and they're not proposing to do anything
about this -- and for the application -- public chat -- it's unclear
how well you can protect privacy -- any narcs can just join in the
discussion.)

> It's a hell of a lot more trivial than Usenet with only 33 servers
> on the network, and each communication tagged with the hostname or
> IP address that originated it.

So the low number of servers is bad for protecting free speech also.

Also on the plus side it's not that big a network to fork with a fork
keeping the old protocols, with robust distributed DoS fixes.  A
corrolorary of Lucky's comment that there's more demand for crypto
than people competent to do it -- there aren't enough crypto clueful
people to keep up with internet protocols and steer them in sensible
directions.

Adam




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Tue Jan  2 22:20:19 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:20:19 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <06201952273030@ntmail.okeechobee.com>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From hector at hectorinspector.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Jan  3 03:11:02 2001
From: hector at hectorinspector.freeserve.co.uk (hector)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:11:02 -0500
Subject: S-tools
Message-ID: <000a01c07575$84c1f120$b45d893e@oemcomputer>

A couple of years ago, there was a program around that would extract the password from a file created with S-tools. Does anyone remember the program name and/or where I can get hold of it. Source code would be nice too.

Muchas Gracias
Hector
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan  3 05:31:59 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:31:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010103073046.14390C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org (it's a vector to Forbes).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From andrew at security.za.net  Tue Jan  2 21:36:38 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:36:38 +0200
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101020803080.29583-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAEEDCHAA.andrew@security.za.net>


The answer to this question is actually fairly simple, it is VERY easy to
block smurfing in the form of amplification, I.E that is to say that you can
stop yourself being an amplifier, this helps your outgoing bandwidth.
However, to stop yourself being smurfed you have to stop all incoming ICMP
Echo Reply packets coming into your host at your upstream, because what you
are getting from a smurf are NOT ping request packets, they are ICMP echo
reply packets coming from other amplifiers, which means you could be getting
ICMP echo reply packets from 10 thousand + hosts at a time, and there is
little you can do to block it other than have your uplink firewall it.  The
problem is that by the time the ICMP reaches the uplink, the uplink has
probably been saturated, or at least is upset enough over their loss of
bandwidth to possibly cut your connectivity.  It is pretty pointless
blocking ICMP echo replies on the IRC server itself as well, because by the
time the packets get dropped at the server, they have already passed over
the lines and saturated the lines.

Kinda sad hey?

Andrew Alston

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:08 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: RE: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext




On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

>Further more, IRC does NOT take that much bandwidth, there is a myth that
>efnet NEEDS OC3 links etc because of the traffic that is passed across it,
>what people dont say is that the servers actually only run at between 1 and
>2 megabit/second if you remove the traffic from DDOS and attacks like
smurf.

I have a question: given that half the bandwidth and almost all
of the spike bandwidth is devoted to smurfing, why don't IRC
servers just block multicast ping? I mean, okay, so it's in the
kernel code instead of being a separate application.  It still
shouldn't be hard to come up with a patch that killed smurfing.

Pings should never be forwarded to multiple hosts.

				Bear







From johnjones at themail.com  Tue Jan  2 04:57:10 2001
From: johnjones at themail.com (johnjones at themail.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:57:10 +1900
Subject: The Only Automated Tools You Will Ever Need
Message-ID: <200101031257.HAA23200@ns.getmassivehits.com>


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From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Wed Jan  3 05:31:28 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:31:28 -0500 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF442BD@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From roy at scytale.com  Wed Jan  3 06:14:02 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:14:02 -0500
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
Message-ID: <000501c0758f$4c2d3c60$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:


>http://slashdot.org (it's a vector to Forbes).

<sigh>
No, that's Slashdot.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/03/0628240 is the actual Slashdot
story.

http://www.forbes.com/futuretech/forbes/2001/0108/242.html is a vector to
Forbes.


(and I thought 2001 was going to improve...)





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jan  3 09:25:03 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:25:03 -0800
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
Message-ID: <3A53606F.3552F6FF@lsil.com>


> A quote from
> http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,20985,00.html:
> 
> " Criminal organizations appear to be using the proceeds of
>     IP-infringing products to facilitate a variety of enterprises,
>     including guns, drugs, pornography and even terrorism. Invariably,
>     when there is intellectual property crime, there is tax evasion and
>     money laundering."
> 
> Note that last sentence.
> 
Yes. She's absolutely right. Just look at the DeCSS development. Clearly
a case of drug and gun dealing terrorists developing SW to fund their
nefarious activities. Same as Napster. What a stupid shit. Think the
next prez will do any better picking an AG? Don't bet on it.




From roy at scytale.com  Wed Jan  3 06:25:04 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:25:04 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
Message-ID: <000701c07590$dd459840$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>



From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Wed Jan  3 00:23:18 2001
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:23:18 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext 
In-Reply-To: <200101030404.XAA01320@modemcable069.22-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101031019400.10011-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Adam Back wrote:

>> One of the problems that efnext is trying to address, and a cause of
>> network instability is DOS attacks against servers by little kiddies
>> that want to take over channels.
>
>So what they should do is fix those problems robustly.  Instead
>they're using central control as a "fix".

AFAIK, the main changes related to DoS resilience have nothing to do with
centralized control, but rather making the low level operation of the server
network less visible. Nothing inherently wrong with that, I think. Remote
k and the new ojoin are what people worry about.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan  3 11:43:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:43:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ADL lauds Yahoo for switching on French Nazi case
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0101031142430.21497-100000@well.com>




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:37:25 -0500 
From: "Rosado, Frances" <rosaf at adl.org>
Subject: ADL PR - Yahoo!



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


Contact:  Myrna Shinbaum (212) 885-7747
		 Todd Gutnick (212) 885-7755

ADL COMMENDS YAHOO FOR ACTION BANNING
NAZI MEMORABILIA AND OTHER HATEFUL ITEMS ON ITS AUCTION SITE

New York, NY, January 3, 2001 ... The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today
commended Yahoo! for its decision to take steps to remove hateful materials
from its Internet auctions, calling it a "creative solution to combat the
flood of Nazi memorabilia and other offensive and hateful items being hawked
for sale to the highest bidder in their online auctions."
	Glen A. Tobias, ADL National Chairman, and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL
National Director, issued the following statement:

				We commend Yahoo! for its decision to ensure
that hateful materials do not appear in its online auctions.  We believe
Yahoo! has come up with a creative solution to combat the flood of Nazi
memorabilia and other offensive or hateful items being hawked for sale to
the highest bidder in their online auctions.

				While there is no law in the United States
against selling these items to the public, they were clearly offensive to
many individuals who frequent the auction site.  Yahoo! has recognized this
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auction rooms for inappropriate or offensive content.  Yahoo!'s decision
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that is hateful or otherwise objectionable.

				The Internet is a great tool for education
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Internet companies to walk a fine line between free expression and
inappropriate or hateful conduct.  Internet companies need to be continually
on watch for hateful content and, when appropriate, to respond with similar
solutions.


The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading
organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that
counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.







From bf at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  3 09:08:24 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:08:24 -0500
Subject: N.H. Lawmaker Advocates Killing Police Who Cross the Line: From The 
Message-ID: <3A535BEF.EC1C99C8@mindspring.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA5EN19JHC.html
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From bf at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  3 09:10:03 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:10:03 -0500
Subject: Yahoo gives in to french fascists
Message-ID: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM7Y56JHC.html
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From INTIWARDAL at ANDINANET.NET  Wed Jan  3 09:29:23 2001
From: INTIWARDAL at ANDINANET.NET (ORLANDO OLEAS)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:29:23 -0500
Subject: alt.anonymous.messages 
Message-ID: <3A536172.2E94546C@ANDINANET.NET>


Por favor ayudame lo más pronto posible con 2 preguntas:
1ra) Cuando ya me he bajado el partition magic, existen:
     Nombre de archivo   Dimensiones   Propiedades de la imagen
Descripción
-----------   -------   ----------------   -----------
devotion          8KB
file_id.diz       1KB
firesite          1KB
Hom               2KB
m-ppm6.r00    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r01    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r02    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r03    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r04    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r05    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r06    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r07    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r08    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r09    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r10    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r11    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r12    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r13    2.813KB
m-ppm6.r14       19KB
m-ppm6.rar    2.813KB
Mfd               9KB
QUE DEBO HACER?  COMO LOS HAGO EJECUTABLES PARA PODER INSTALAR EL
PARTITION MAGIC

2da) Que como podré identificarlos si se pasan a otro sitio porque el
suyo me ha parecido estupendo? o a su vez mejor envíenme un e-mail o un
mensaje secreto a mi dirección de correo: kondortra at hotmail.com

Gracias por la ayuda, en este momento tengo que hacer muchos deberes de
la U pero pienso ayudarles, pueden poner su web en www.gratisweb.com

GRACIAS POR SU AYUDA, SE LO SUPLICO NECESITO INSTALAR ESTE PARTITION
MAGIC, MUCHAS GRACIAS.





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan  3 09:43:38 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:43:38 -0500
Subject: Yahoo gives in to french fascists
In-Reply-To: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
References: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b67914a999fe@[207.111.241.40]>



"Blank Frank,"

Please spend a few moments only including a URL. We don't need 
listings of the Tampa Bay Weather Center info and "Premier Clothing 
from Huntington" advertisements in our e-mail.

I'll check back later. For now, your stuff goes to my trash folder.


--Tim May


At 12:10 PM -0500 1/3/01, Blank Frank wrote:
>http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM7Y56JHC.html
>
>
>Site List: Tampa Bay Online The Tampa Tribune WFLA Weather Center 
>Hernando Today Highlands Today FloridaInfo.com  
>
>
>
><http://tampabayonline.net>
> 
><http://utils.media-general.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.tboweb.com/ap/story.htm/23299/Top/t_HuntingtonPF/pc_468x6.gif/39646135323934363361333830626230> 
>
>  N E W S
><http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm>Breaking News
>
><http://ap.tbo.com/ap/florida/index.htm>Florida
>
><http://ap.tbo.com/ap/index.htm>


"B
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From jburnes at savvis.net  Wed Jan  3 11:09:20 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:09:20 -0500
Subject: Yahoo gives in to french fascists
In-Reply-To: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
References: <3A535C58.7D3D5907@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <01010313101401.00569@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Wednesday 03 January 2001 11:10, Blank Frank wrote:
> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAM7Y56JHC.html

I really doesn't matter what Yahoo decides to do.  Ebay is much
larger anyway.  

What I want to know is who at Yahoo decides what material is hate
related?

Does this ban you from selling Bibles, The Koran or the Talmud
on Yahoo? I'm sure you can find racist "Them vs. Us" themes in all those
works.

The comment on glorification of violence was interesting.
Can you sell a video tape of "Blood Sport"?  How about any war
movie or book that glorifies heroism, bravery or the warrior
spirit?  Who decides if they are glorifying or simply portraying
violence as a means to and end.

BTW: You could have spared us from posting an embedded URL.  While
my mail client can handle it, its one of the worst forms of spam.


jim burnes

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan  3 11:22:28 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:22:28 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
References: <3A53606F.3552F6FF@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3A537BE0.4A4E9E96@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>  nefarious activities. Same as Napster. What a stupid shit. Think the
> next prez will do any better picking an AG? Don't bet on it.


   Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked. Asscroft,
the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his ultra-fascist voting
record. Gag. Barf. 


-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From bf at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  3 11:31:00 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:31:00 -0500
Subject: Report: E.Germany Used Nuclear Tags on Dissidents
Message-ID: <3A537D66.1E9E6998@mindspring.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010103/sc/stasi_dc_1.html
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From agl at linuxpower.org  Wed Jan  3 11:52:07 2001
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:52:07 -0500
Subject: FCC Slaps Anti-Drug TV Shows
Message-ID: <20010103200042.B5316@linuxpower.org>


Quotes from http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52094-2000Dec26.html

"Federal regulators have ruled that the major networks should have identified the White House as a sponsor of programs such as "The Practice," "The Drew Carey Show" and "America's Most Wanted" when their plots included anti-drug messages for which the government paid the networks millions of dollars"

"During the past two years, networks including ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox received a total of $25 million for including anti-drug messages in prime-time programming. It was revealed at congressional hearings that the White House reviewed scripts for more than 100 shows to determine if the anti-drug message of a particular program was strong enough to merit payment"

"We have been told by these programmers that they have influenced the programs in order to please the government. That is not the kind of free press we have grown accustomed to," Stroup said

--end--

Aren't you glad that your tax $$$ are being spent so well?
I guess this is what they mean when they talk about educating
the population.

AGL

-- 
The Street finds its own uses for technology.





From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Jan  3 06:08:39 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:08:39 +0100
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010102191028.00ac6c20@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <3A533267.210A9225@ricardo.de>


"Roy M. Silvernail" wrote:
> 
> A quote from http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,20985,00.html:
> 
> " Criminal organizations appear to be using the proceeds of
>     IP-infringing products to facilitate a variety of enterprises,
>     including guns, drugs, pornography and even terrorism. Invariably,
>     when there is intellectual property crime, there is tax evasion and
>     money laundering."
> 
> Note that last sentence.

she forgot to mention child abuse.




From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:57 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26232@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:57 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26228@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:57 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:57 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26235@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From lolly at biperson.com  Wed Jan  3 18:18:58 2001
From: lolly at biperson.com (lolly at biperson.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:18:58 -0800
Subject: If you come only once, you've been cheated.
Message-ID: <200101040218.SAA26238@biperson.com>


Our motto: More tail for less money.

We've got whining, spoiled, American bitches getting what's coming to
them. And liking it!

Spum guzzling hose hogs who can't live without a white boy's jimmy or
a black boy's cactus in their mouths 24 hours a day! (We have to
punish them when they swallow instead of taking it on the face!)

Delicate, oriental beauties with tight cooters getting split down the
middle, lumberjack style! 

Sign me up Jack!!!

Gorgeous, buxom, chocolate wenches that will make your snicker caramel
its nuts!

Latin lovelies getting their tacos stuffed with the biggest beef in
Texas!

Remember that teacher with big knobs whose skirt you used to look up?
Yes? Well, we got her too!

Young? Old? Thick? Thin? Tall? Short? Whatever! If it's got a hole
and a temperature we've got it!

http://64.19.199.34/index.html





From subscriptions at webnoize.com  Wed Jan  3 15:26:43 2001
From: subscriptions at webnoize.com (subscriptions at webnoize.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 19:26:43 -0400
Subject: Webnoize Subscription Reminder
Message-ID: <200101040027.TAA28331@smtp.webnoize.com>


Hello,

Below is the copy of your Webnoize user name and password that you requested.

For your information, this subscription will expire on May 21, 2001.

SUBSCRIPTION INFO:
  User Name: cypherpunks
  Password: cypherpunks

To update any of your subscription information (email address, 
phone, etc.), simply visit the URL below to access your profile.  

YOUR SUBSCRIPTION URL:
 http://www.webnoize.com/subscriptions/profile.rs

If you have trouble accessing Webnoize, please send a description 
of the problems you are encountering via email to "subscriptions at webnoize.com". 
You can also contact the Webnoize Subscription Department at 617-768-0400.




From subscriptions at webnoize.com  Wed Jan  3 17:13:05 2001
From: subscriptions at webnoize.com (subscriptions at webnoize.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:13:05 -0400
Subject: Webnoize Subscription Deactivation
Message-ID: <200101040213.VAA28384@smtp.webnoize.com>


This message is to inform you that your Webnoize Subscription 
has been deactivated.

If you did not want to deactivate your subscription, please contact 
the Webnoize Subscription Department at 617-768-0400, or send 
an email requesting your subscription be reactivated to 
"subscriptions at webnoize.com". 




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Jan  3 18:46:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:46:39 -0500
Subject: ADL lauds Yahoo for switching on French Nazi case
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0101031142430.21497-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010103180226.007aa7a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 03:01 PM 1/3/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>ADL COMMENDS YAHOO FOR ACTION BANNING
>NAZI MEMORABILIA AND OTHER HATEFUL ITEMS ON ITS AUCTION SITE
>

How many days before the NAACP starts working on banning 
Confederate paraphenalia?


there is no god and murphy is his prophet

 






  








From comptonjr at txucom.net  Wed Jan  3 20:43:53 2001
From: comptonjr at txucom.net (graham compton,Jr.)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:43:53 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c07608$f29a7a80$470222d1@default>

my dog was poisoned by ricin. do you know the antidote? Thanks, GSC Jr
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From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Wed Jan  3 21:35:09 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:35:09 -0500
Subject: Web sites feed boom in sex trade and slavery 
Message-ID: <7f8c4c9657708a84e9c9b48a7ba0f82f@mixmaster.shinn.net>


Published Wednesday, Jan. 3, 2001, in the San Jose Mercury News 
BY KEVIN G. HALL 

Mercury News Rio de Janeiro Bureau 


RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- At Agencia Roberta, a call-girl service in this tourist haven known for sun and sin, business is booming, thanks in large part to the Internet.

Italians, Germans, Americans and other foreigners can make arrangements for services in advance, even before their planes touch down. The oldest profession in the world is getting a boost from the newest technology.

``It's globalization,'' explains Vanessa, a manager of the online escort service that charges men about $150 for three hours of pleasure.

``Everybody has a Web page. All the prostitutes know about this,'' says Betty, a freelance hooker in Rio who speaks over a rattling television and the laughter of children. She advertises her Web site in the Brazilian newspaper O Globo.

The Internet gained early fame as a tool to arrange consensual sex via chat rooms. But it also has a more sinister function. It has become a tool that aids the exploitation of women who are tricked or forced into prostitution around the world. Digital cameras mean these women find themselves performing sex acts for voyeurs across the globe. With a few clicks of a computer mouse, a man can log on anywhere from suburban Maryland to rural Montana and be transported instantly to a bedroom in Thailand or the Ukraine.

``People can get so selective that they can now see a particular type of woman doing a type of act, and can do that from a global connection out of sight. Over time, it will increase the demand for real sex slaves,'' warned J. Robert Flores, vice president of the National Law Center for Children and Families in Fairfax, Va., and a former high-ranking official in the Department of Justice's obscenity and child-exploitation division.

Law enforcement officials have known that women are often held against their will and forced into sex at Asian brothels or those controlled by the Russian mob, even in the United States. But now there is a new twist: The act can be sold around the world, Flores said.

``The Internet has made the sex market even stronger, and has even made it possible to market women around the world,'' said Flores, who says few Web sites are actually so bold as to advertise sex slaves.

In Brazil, prostitutes have become prime targets for global sex syndicates, who lure them to foreign countries and then enslave them, said Carla Dolinski, a police investigator who leads anti-trafficking efforts in Rio. An estimated 75,000 Brazilian women work in Europe as prostitutes, many against their will. Dolinski said police recently received a complaint about a widely circulated e-mail trying to recruit Brazilian prostitutes for work in Spain. And there are well-documented cases of ordinary women being tricked into traveling abroad for work, only to be forced into prostitution.

One of them is 20-year-old Beatriz, an ebony-skinned woman with a cover-girl smile. She left her home on the rough outskirts of Rio de Janeiro for the tourist island of Lanzarote, near the Canary Islands. She said she thought she would be part of a Brazilian dance troupe, but she ended up enslaved in Lanzarote, forced to perform sex acts for Spaniards and other tourists -- without pay -- until she managed to escape.

Another Brazilian woman, who asked to be called Ana, said she was lured to Tel Aviv, Israel, two years ago believing she'd be a high-paid waitress. After she arrived, her documents were confiscated and she was told the icy truth: She was now an unpaid prostitute at the service of the Russian mob. She was put to work the very afternoon she arrived. Like Beatriz, she escaped. Her captors murdered one of her friends for not cooperating.

Beatriz and Ana did not find out about their ``jobs'' through high-tech means, but Dolinksi fears that e-mail and Internet sites will more easily entice other desperate women to travel across the globe for promises of a better life, only to suffer similar fates.

``If a foreigner has a site offering $1,000 a month, the girls will go. It is difficult to investigate when it comes from outside of Brazil,'' Dolinski said.

Authorities are still trying to document the myriad ways the Internet is involved in sex trafficking, but sites that are little more than marketing tools for traffickers are proliferating.

One Web site, for example, features private chat rooms for men who may or may not be aware of the misery they are supporting. They exchange tips on brothels around the world where authorities say many women are virtual slaves.

``Almost all the girls have babies, but still, they are good!!! If you like the young, but legal, baby-faced Lolitas, you cannot get it any cheaper,'' says one man's posting on the site about his trip to Brazil.

Another site notes that sex with Brazilian minors is illegal. Even so, it suggests that if ``you are under 50 and white, or even better, blond and blue-eyed, try flirting with any girl from 16 years up, in the street, near high schools.''

The site notes that the Brazilian government has cracked down on child prostitution, but it appears to justify sex with minors by noting ``they will either return home and get abused or roam the street penniless eating at garbage dumps.''

The Internet appears to offer countless ways to deceive and promote illegal activities. Flores points out that many sites offer to help find a marriage partner. But, he adds: ``If you go to those sites, the vast majority of them offer nude pictures of these women. The reality is that after you have been on the site for a few minutes, what you really are talking about is buying and selling of women,'' which is against the law.

A Miami-based Internet site claims to be a matchmaking service, by offering ``mail-order brides'' and charging fees to introduce men to foreign women.

The site, which features photos of women along with information about them, tells cybersurfers not to let worries about their own looks or a lack of money deter them from trying to contact women on the sites.

``If you make only $800 a month you will still be making many times more than the average Cuban worker,'' the site says.

A site from Rugby, N.D., called Your Destiny advertises a buyers' market since, it says, there ``is an overabundance of young single women in Russia.''

Authorities are worried about these subtler approaches. Some are legitimate matchmaking services, but experts think many are a ruse for trafficking women into the United States.

The Justice Department estimates that 50,000 to 100,000 women and children have been trafficked into the United States in the past few years. Lawmakers are considering legislation to grant special visas to women tricked into slavery who are willing to testify against their captors.

There are no statistics on how the Internet's mail-order bride-sites have abetted trafficking, but experts believe they have and that traffickers will become even more sophisticated in using the Internet to reap profits from their trade.

At the same time, anti-trafficking activists in Brazil and around the world say they will try to fight back with the very same tool -- tapping the Internet to warn women about sex slavery.

Cristina Leonardo, a human rights attorney in Brazil, is trying to set up a Web site dedicated to providing information about known traffickers. Her ``Project Against the Trafficking of Humans'' would create a national and international telephone center where people provide tips to authorities. 

Through her Brazilian Defense Center, Leonardo also is trying to create online training programs, so police and the courts can share information around the world to better protect women from this modern-day scourge.









From no1special at turbomail.tv  Wed Jan  3 22:44:32 2001
From: no1special at turbomail.tv (no1special)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:44:32 -0600
Subject: Interesting Article (FWD)
Message-ID: <200101040652.AAA19993@einstein.ssz.com>



              Why to Secure Your Computer Network
              -----------------------------------

     There has been a great deal of talk about network security over
the past several years. Almost all of this talk has been about the
"how" aspect of network security - which is to say the practical
steps required to prevent malicious individuals from damaging the
structure and function of computer networks. Comparatively little has
been said about the "why" aspect of computer security. There has been
comparatively little discussion of what, in particular, makes our
networks worth protecting and why we want to maintain the large,
complex, and vulnerable network that the Internet has become.

     In looking into the subject of network infrastructure, security,
and architecture I slowly began to understand what Cliff Stoll (author
of the book Cukoo's Egg) meant when he said the following:

     "So long as you think of someone ripping you off as a 'penetrator', 
   you'll never make any progress. As long as they remained impersonal
   and detatched, the NSA people would never realize that this wasn't
   just a computer being penetrated, but a community was being
   attacked.
     ...I'd never solve the problem until I got involved; until I
   worried about the cancer patients who might be injured by this guy;
   until I became angry that this hacker was directly threatening all
   of us." (Cliff Stoll -- Cuckoo's Egg p. 279) 

     From my perspective as both a user and as an administrator of
computer networks, The most powerful ability of computer networks is
their ability to bring people together. The explosive growth in
the Internet, for example can be largely attributed to the desire
for people to communicate inexpensively over long distances. 

    The "killer app" of the Internet is not, from my perspective, the
World Wide Web, but rather electronic mail. Most of what is being done
on the Web could just have easily been done through other means, but
there is no real replacement for e-mail. Internet e-mail has become,
over a very short span of years, one of the de-facto standard means of
communications both in the business world and in our personal
lives. Every time someone new gets an e-mail account, it is another
reason to use e-mail. The more people have e-mail the more valuable
the network becomes.

    I believe that these personal connections are what makes the
Internet and the various intranets valuable. From this perspective
anything that destroys or reduces our ability to communicate makes
these networks less valuable. To state this more clearly, it is my
belief that networks create value by making it possible to quickly and
safely communicate and share information. Anything which increases the
ability of network users to share information quickly, easily, and
safely will increase the usefulness and value of the
network. Conversely, anything which decreases the ability of users to
communicate and share information decreases the network's value. If
this is true, the most valuable resource on a network is each user's
trust in that network's ability to support their need to communicate
and share information safely.

     In the long run, while electronic commerce is important, it is
nowhere near as important as the system of trust which holds networks
together. The most important thing to preserve is the willingness of
people to trust each other - the willingness of administrators,
engineers developers and other network users to share information with
each other. If you accept this as true, it quickly becomes clear that
the the the following five problems pose the most serious threat to
Internet and intranet security: 

      1) E-mail viruses -- viruses which propogate by electronic mail
         make it more difficult for users to work with attached
         files. These threats make it more difficult for users to
         share their documents and research with other people who they
         may not know well. Right now every systems administrator is
         telling their users not to open attachments that they are not
         completely sure about - this undermines the trust which makes
         collaboration possible. 

      2) Trojan-horse software -- software which has hidden "back
         doors" or breaches a computer's security in a malicious way
         can have a severe negative effect on the ability of systems
         administrators and developers ability to exchange information
         related to their work. This in potentially a very grave threat
         against the open-source community - which depends very
         heavily on the ability of developers to trust each other's
         work.

      3) Malicious Applets (malware) -- Malware creates distrust
         between web page authors and web users. A web user should be
         able to judge a website by the value of its content without
         having to worry about wether his browser will be attacked by
         the author's system. Creating distrust in this arena can have
         devestating effects on the usefulness of the Internet.

      5) UBE (spam) -- Unsolicited bulk e-mail creates an indirect
         threat to the trust which makes e-mail useful. As spam
         becomes more common, filters are constructed which block it
         more effeciently. Unfortunately, it is impossible to
         cunstruct a filter which blocks a high percentage of UBE
         without blocking at least some legitimate mail. This will
         ultimately have negative consequences on electronic mail
         systems.

      4) Cracking attacks -- Cracking attacks, especially attacks on
         e-mail, web and FTP servers, make it more difficult for
         people to attach private networks to the Internet. Every time
         the barriers to entry are raised, the value of the Internet as
         a whole suffers. 

     As we enter the 21st century, computer networks are becoming a
vital tool for reaching both business and personal goals. While there
is no question that we need to secure these networks against those who
would abuse them, it is important to do so in a way that protects the
true value of those networks.

                            Jacques Richer


   
     


******
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From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Thu Jan  4 02:59:18 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 03:59:18 -0700
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/04/bush.freeh.reut/index.html
Message-ID: <5f2a8f67aa4950e568bb903492a5bc20@noisebox.remailer.org>


 
Bush asks Freeh to stay at FBI, USA Today says
  
January 4, 2001
Web posted at: 3:21 AM EST (0821 GMT)


WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The incoming Bush administration has asked FBI Director Louis Freeh to remain on the job, USA Today reported Thursday, citing officials close to the situation. 

Freeh has told Federal Bureau of Investigation employees in an internal memo last month that he intends to complete his 10-year term that expires in 2003 and cannot be extended, USA Today said. 

Freeh declined to comment Wednesday, as did Bush transition officials, the newspaper said. 

Although he is an appointee of President Clinton, Freeh clashed with the president over questions about the transfer of FBI files to the White House. 

He also has differed with Attorney General Janet Reno's decision against launching an independent investigation of campaign finance irregularities involving Clinton and Vice President Al Gore. 

Copyright 2001 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
 
 




From hole1001 at pageice.com  Thu Jan  4 02:10:53 2001
From: hole1001 at pageice.com (hole1001 at pageice.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:10:53 -0500
Subject: Mortgage Rates DROP!! Lenders COMPETE for your Business! -navujnepih
Message-ID: <6e7a4r.42y4wh38vkjqj25n@p5cb3i52.localhost>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Jan  4 02:29:27 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


I read. I even read American stuff sometimes.  In the last week I've
read all or some of 5 books about architecture & housing. Two of them
were American. But, not being American I still have no real idea what
the expected answer to 

>       furnace:basement::stove:______

is. 

I *guess* "kitchen" because in the UK "stove" is an old-fashioned name
for a cooking device, stuff we used before the invention of gas and
electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
range).  But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over
here you put teenagers or washing machines or junk in your basement, not
furnaces. Actually, in London, they are almost always converted into
flats & rented out. 

Anyway, surely basements are urban vs. rural? A way of getting more room
in a restricted space. Do people build them out in the country?

Ken the Ethnocentric.

dmolnar wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > >> but soon realized it was likely.  Tens of millions of Californians
> > >> have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements..
> > >
> > >They've never read a story which mentions such a thing?
> > >
> > >-David
> >
> > "Read" ???
> 
> Oh, right.
> Maybe the SAT is biased towards people who read. Since I read, that
> doesn't seem so bad to me.
> 
> -David (exulting in the logic of ... oh, wait)





From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan  4 03:46:35 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:46:35 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: Ken Brown's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500"
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu> <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>


Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:

> were American. But, not being American I still have no real idea what
> the expected answer to 
> 
> >       furnace:basement::stove:______

I had no idea either.

> I *guess* "kitchen" because in the UK "stove" is an old-fashioned name
> for a cooking device, stuff we used before the invention of gas and

I don't know if it's _that_ old-fashioned the word "stove" is still in
use for this.

On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
for boiling water.

Can anyone confirm whether this is true?

> electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
> range).  But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
> steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over

I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    "my watch with a black face .. has the date in a little hole in the face"





From cmgmba at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  4 07:32:21 2001
From: cmgmba at yahoo.com (cheryl gilan)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:32:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Please remove...
Message-ID: <20010104153221.20042.qmail@web4503.mail.yahoo.com>


Please remove "Shanah Tovah" item which appears after
doing a search of my name Cheryl Gilan.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Cheryl Gilan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan  4 04:34:51 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 07:34:51 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
References: <Ken Brown's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500">
 <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
 <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200101041240.HAA23252@smtp6.mindspring.com>


A furnace makes heat, a boiler makes steam or hot 
water. Many small buildings have a boiler that does
all three by combing components in a single unit.
Large buildings have three separate units, and more
for specialized tasks.

In New York City, there is an important distinction between
cellar and basement. Cellars are not habitable while
basements are. The building code definition of a basement 
is that at least half its height is above street level, and that
of cellar is that just over half its height is below street
level. Many residential buildings are designed to
take advantage of that distinction. The rule covers
sloping site conditions to average the difference between
front and back.

The basement level is often called the Ground Floor to
take away any stigma associated with basement.

Much mechanical and electrical equipment is located in
the cellar to maximize habitable space above. Same goes
for the roof.

Terrific expenditures for excavating multi-level cellars are
the norm for high-rise buildings -- even in hard rock as in
Manhattan -- to produce maximum habitable space allowed
under the zoning code, which, in combination with building
health, and environmental codes, regulates bulk, height, light,
air, room sizes, window sizes and a host of requirements
for barely tolerable human habitation -- and legal standards
are ever dropping in squalid, squirming cities for luxury as
well as dirt cheap holes.

We architects are expected to, well, cheat, to maximize what
property owners want at the expense of building inhabitants
and the inccreasingly squeezed and violated public. What 
helps us get away with cheating is massive PR by our 
professional flacks, sophisticated aesthetic and environmental 
theories that claim wretched architecture is beautiful, 
drunken orgies with regulatory officials, revolving 
door participation in standards committees and holding
public office -- to be sure, as practised by all professions, 
in particular those that are solemnly licensed and sworn
to protect the public from people like us.

Occasionally an idiot architect, like this one, tries to go against
the grain, and work dries up instantly and family says dont
be stupid, dont shame us. Then back to doing what church 
and family command to be an outstanding citizen/bandit.

Social planning is a useful deception, twinned with the 
free market -- the two backed beast.




From mike1 at info-prods.com  Wed Jan  3 23:56:32 2001
From: mike1 at info-prods.com (mike1 at info-prods.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 07:56:32 +0000
Subject: natural diet
Message-ID: <3bx65.2yil6o8voy1w32i26@dialup1.info-web-prods.com>



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From Fenton420 at hotmail.com  Thu Jan  4 08:21:17 2001
From: Fenton420 at hotmail.com (Fenton420 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:21:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Get Paid Just to Get E-Mail!
Message-ID: <200101041621.IAA08376@cyberpass.net>


Dear cypherpunks ,

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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Jan  4 05:48:00 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:48:00 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu> <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <3A547EFE.B98796E0@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Steve Mynott wrote:

> Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>
> On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> for boiling water.
>
> Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>

     We have. I do.

>
> > electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
> > range).  But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
> > steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over
>
> I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

    No, those are different forms of central heating units -- a furnace is
forced air, boiler is, uh, hot water or steam.

   Stove is what you cook on -- could also be range, either gas or electric. Or
oil, for that matter, although you don't find those much anymore except as
antiques. I prefer the woodfired cookstove, which we used for many years and are
looking for a new one. Stove is also a part of a car, the sheetmetal piece that
mounts on the exhaust manifold and feeds hot air thru a tube to the airclearner
to prevent carburator icing.
      In differnt areas of the US we have different tems for the thing get water
out of at the sink. In the south it's often called spigot, and in the north
faucet. Also tap. What do you Brits call that?





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Jan  4 10:26:50 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:26:50 -0800
Subject: US Attorney General nominee is pro-privacy
Message-ID: <3A54C06A.FCEFE311@lsil.com>


That is mildly encouraging but what about the 4th and 5th? Is he going
to take the position that in effect we have a right to encrypt all we
want but when so directed by a court or LE Agency we must surrender
plaintext? I know this crap will be sneaking into multiple crime bills
over the next few years. If it hasn't already.

Mike




From cmckie at ottawa.com  Thu Jan  4 10:44:34 2001
From: cmckie at ottawa.com (Craig McKie)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:44:34 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <vog95togen4oohsm2aia6ajsbn867g9920@4ax.com>


Americans do not have electric kettles within the intended British
meaning. They tend not to know what you are talking about. The product
is absent from the shelves at Target and Walmart.

Most Canadian households would have electric kettles where gas cooking
is not involved. Something about tea-making perhaps?








On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:10:14 -0500, you wrote:

>
>
>On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Steve Mynott wrote:
>
>>Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
>>for boiling water.
>>
>>Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>
>
>sigh.  Americans tend not to call something a "kettle" unless it's 
>large, at least a 6-qt capacity.  We don't have non-specialized 
>electric cooking vessels in that size on the market.  
>
>However, we have electric coffeepots that size and larger, and 
>electric "hotpots" of a smaller size (around 2qt) suitable for 
>heating water to brew tea, and electric "rice cookers" of 
>approx. 3-4qt capacity that are entirely suitable for boiling 
>water if you don't want to cook rice.
>
>
>I'd be inclined to think that this is just a terminology issue. 
>
>>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.
>
>Hm.  Not all furnaces are boilers.  Basically we use the word 
>"furnace" here to mean the heating unit for a house.  One kind 
>of furnace is a boiler, which heats liquid that then gets 
>circulated through radiators.  
>
>Other types of furnaces are electrical, or fired by gas, coal, 
>oil, or wood.  Sometimes they heat a gigantic rock that then 
>radiates heat for days (this arrangement is popular in arid 
>northern and northwestern states).  More often they heat air, 
>channeled through a heat-exchanger by a fan and then circulated 
>directly through the rest of the house via ductwork.
>
>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and 
>I haven't seen a coal-fired furnace since I was a child. 
>They're still out there, though; although they are now illegal 
>for pollution reasons here in CA, there are places in the 
>midwest where once in a while you still find them in use.
>
>
>				Bear
>
>
>
>




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Jan  4 09:10:14 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:10:14 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Steve Mynott wrote:

>Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>
>On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
>for boiling water.
>
>Can anyone confirm whether this is true?


sigh.  Americans tend not to call something a "kettle" unless it's 
large, at least a 6-qt capacity.  We don't have non-specialized 
electric cooking vessels in that size on the market.  

However, we have electric coffeepots that size and larger, and 
electric "hotpots" of a smaller size (around 2qt) suitable for 
heating water to brew tea, and electric "rice cookers" of 
approx. 3-4qt capacity that are entirely suitable for boiling 
water if you don't want to cook rice.


I'd be inclined to think that this is just a terminology issue. 

>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

Hm.  Not all furnaces are boilers.  Basically we use the word 
"furnace" here to mean the heating unit for a house.  One kind 
of furnace is a boiler, which heats liquid that then gets 
circulated through radiators.  

Other types of furnaces are electrical, or fired by gas, coal, 
oil, or wood.  Sometimes they heat a gigantic rock that then 
radiates heat for days (this arrangement is popular in arid 
northern and northwestern states).  More often they heat air, 
channeled through a heat-exchanger by a fan and then circulated 
directly through the rest of the house via ductwork.

Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and 
I haven't seen a coal-fired furnace since I was a child. 
They're still out there, though; although they are now illegal 
for pollution reasons here in CA, there are places in the 
midwest where once in a while you still find them in use.


				Bear







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan  4 12:16:25 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:16:25 -0800
Subject: Escaping the Internet Archives - Re: Please remove...
In-Reply-To: <20010104153221.20042.qmail@web4503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010104121625.00a362c0@idiom.com>


At 07:32 AM 1/4/01 -0800, cheryl gilan wrote:
>Subject: Please remove...
>Please remove "Shanah Tovah" item which appears after
>doing a search of my name Cheryl Gilan.
>Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
>Cheryl Gilan

Cheryl - Happy New Year 2001!   Cypherpunks is a mailing list.  
Are you asking us to remove your message from the list archives?
There are multiple archives run by various people around the world -
they're even more decentralized than the mailing list,
plus the list is gatewayed to some Usenet newsgroups,
so there may be Usenet archives as well.  The ones that
are easily located by search engines are in Singapore and Germany.
Also, the google.com search engine caches articles it finds -
even if we delete them, they won't disappear.
Your message to the list, and this reply to it,
will be automatically entered in the archives as well,
joining your original message.

Most archivists don't like to change the past, especially 
when the things run automatically, but the reason you'd be 
in one of the archives is because you sent advertising email
to three of the email addresses used by the cypherpunks list on 
September 28, 2000 using your addresses cheryl at socialplus.com
and your_friends at socialplus.com . 

	SHANAH TOVAH  from your friends at JewishMatch.com 
	(owned and operated by SocialPlus.com).  
	We are a leading provider of customized, turnkey solutions 
	that enables your website users to meet each other for the 
	purposes of companionship, dating and hopefully, marriage. 
	.... [details on your ASP omitted - they're in some archives.]
	Cheryl M. Gilan, Director of Business Development
	JewishMatch.com    mailto:cheryl at socialplus.com
	Tel:  (212) 244-7779    Cell: (917) 523-6750
   	P.S.  Please do not hesitate to contact me at the above numbers.  
	 
The usual reason people ask to be removed is 
so spammers don't find their names on the net.
Given the reason your name appeared on our list,
your request will probably elicit more amusement than sympathy,
but we haven't hesitated to archive your contact information.

Perhaps it was a mistake, or someone gave you bad business advice
on useful ways to increase sales, and you did include your contact
information,
which is pretty unusual for a spammer, but you'll find that
information you've posted to the net never disappears
(unless it's something actually useful that you need badly,
in which case it hasn't disappeared, it's just where *you* can't find it.)
Good, bad, ugly, whatever...  you can't escape your writing.
There're flames out in some Usenet archive that I posted in 1982,
back when it was called Netnews and wasn't carried on the Internet.

	"C'mon, Joe, you can always change your name"

If information never disappears, how do you keep it from
coming back to haunt you?  Best you can do is have a common name -
somebody named Jim Johnson wouldn't have to worry about this.
(Won't work for you.  Sounds like your family's Iranian?  :-)

The next best you can do is use minimize the amount of contact
information and other unique correlatable data you provide, 
and use different email addresses for different things.
So, for instance, Yahoo mail says you live in Orange, NJ -
determining whether that's true shouldn't be hard.
USSearch.com thinks so too, but they just got that from Yahoo.
And your email addresses cmgmba at yahoo.com and cheryl at socialplus.com
were easily linkable by anybody searching on your name
even before this message stuck them together.

By the way, <a href="http://socialplus.com/corp/privacystatement.asp">
SocialPlus.com's privacy policy says you collect a _lot_ of information,
which isn't surprising for a dating meta-service, and says that it's
only disclosed under a variety of conditions, including the 
gaping big hole of telling advertisers when users view their ads
(on viewing, not just on clickthrough.)  It does recommend using your
pseudonymous screen names, and warns that 
	"All postings to the Public Areas become public and,
      therefore, care should be taken in disclosing personal information. 
	Postings made in the Public Areas may not be changed or deleted
      by Visitors or Subscribers."
So please understand that your publicly disclosed information is public.

But, hey, you've come to the right place, and have we got a deal for you!
The Cypherpunks mailing list deals with electronic privacy issues.
You can't fix the past, but there are a variety of privacy-protection 
tools or businesses that people on the list have created that
can help you keep your future information private or less linkable.

http://www.anonymizer.com provides anonymous web surfing -
and it combines well with free email and web hosting offers.
You can use it for free, or pay for better performance and more features.
There's a great list of similar tools at
http://www.sethf.com/anticensorware/smartfilter/greatestevils.php
(it's there because all the censorware products block web anonymizers.

www.ZeroKnowledge.com 's Freedom project provides a variety of services,
including multiple email and web identities and cookie management for a
small fee, 
with cryptographic protection.

David Brin's "The Transparent Society" provides some discussion on how
traditional views of privacy have been made obsolete by technology -
get used to it, and make sure there are webcams pointed at 
government officials so they behave themselves, since they'll be
pointing webcams at you.   Paperback ISBN  0738201448
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738201448/o/qid=978637792/sr=8-1/ref
=aps_sr_b_1_1/103-5076663-8890269


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Jan  4 09:52:25 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:52:25 -0500
Subject: US Attorney General nominee is pro-privacy
Message-ID: <3A54B859.EFFBCE4A@sunder.net>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15795.html

US Attorney General nominee is pro-privacy
By: Kevin Poulsen
Posted: 04/01/2001 at 01:35 GMT

To civil liberty groups, President-elect George W. Bush's pick for US attorney general is an ultra-right wing Christian conservative
who fought abortion and gun control, and blocked the appointment of a black Missouri judge to the federal bench. But veteran cyber
libertarians know John Ashcroft as something else: a once-fierce ally in the successful battle to unshackle encryption technology.


As a US senator, Ashcroft was one of a handful of lawmakers who fought to tear down encryption export regulations -- the federal
rules that kept strong security and privacy-protecting technology out of mainstream commercial products. Ashcroft's views put him in
direct opposition to FBI director Louis Freeh, who argued for years that unrestricted encryption would allow criminals to thwart
lawful government surveillance.


<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Jan  4 09:54:19 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:54:19 -0500
Subject: NSA runs best fab in world
Message-ID: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/15779.html


NSA runs best fab in world
By: Mike Magee
Posted: 03/01/2001 at 13:03 GMT

You might think that AMD's Dresden fab is state-of-the-art technology. You might also suspect that Intel and IBM have some pretty
nifty technology too, lurking in their clean rooms and in their labs.


And you might be right as far as the commercial world goes. But there's a fab, owned by the US government, and run by the National
Security Agency (NSA), which is supposed to knock them into a cocked hat.



<SNIP>

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Jan  4 10:08:04 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:08:04 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB16@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



Central heating did not develop until well after
the US and Britain split. There was little 
technology transfer, so it's not too suprising that
the terminology is different. 

When I moved to Britain in the late 60's, central
heating was still rare enough that it was noted in 
real estate listings. The Brits and other Europeans
developed some rather odd devices to retrofit older
houses....

1. The Geyser (alt pro: geezer). A box attached to
the wall in or near a shower, which provided instant
hot water. Some were gas powered (in which case
a balanced flue was fitted through a hole in the wall
to the outside). Some were electric. Having several 
hundred watts of electricity in intimate contact with 
the water and metal piping of the shower was rather 
nervous making (saw many still in use in Scotland 
this summer).

2. The 'storage heater'. The CEGB (central electricity 
generating board) rates were far lower at night
than during the day or evening. A storage heater
was a metal box, typically 4' wide, 2.5 ft high, 
and about a foot deep, filled with electric elements
and firebrick. During the night, the bricks would be
heated electrically. By morning the box was a 
serious burn hazard, and radiating heat for the rest 
of the day as it slowly cooled. At my boarding 
school, we used to toss matches on the top of one 
and make bets as to which would be the first to light.

Peter Trei






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Jan  4 10:40:11 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:40:11 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
Message-ID: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>


Great Topic!

Steve Mynott wrote:

> Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>
> On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> for boiling water.
>
> Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>
I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea. 

Why boil water for tea on a stove or in an electric "kettle" when you
can put a mug of water in the microwave and have it on the verge of
boiling in 60 seconds? Probably uses less energy too. 

Tea you can pick in your back yard.

Mike





From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Jan  4 10:55:44 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:55:44 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
In-Reply-To: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101041102230.24500-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> Great Topic!
> 
> Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> > Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
> >
> > On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> > for boiling water.
> >
> > Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
> >
> I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea.

It is false. I have an electric kettle for boiling water. It gets used for
tea fairly often. (Or it did, until I bought a new tea kettle.)

Why some people believe these urban myths...
 
alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Jan  4 11:06:54 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:06:54 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
In-Reply-To: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:40:11PM -0500
References: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20010104140630.C29095@ils.unc.edu>


Obligatory cypher tie-in: Remember the Lava Lamp used to create
random numbers?  Bubbles in a boiling liquid might also be suitable.

Electric kettles are common in the UK and Canada.  Black and Decker
makes a model (in 1/2 quart and 1-1/2 quart sizes) available in
some department stores, kitchen stores and catalog stores in the
US.

Electric kettles will boil several cups of water faster than a
microwave.  For a smaller amount, it's a toss-up (depending on the
power of your microwave).  If you want to make a full pot of tea,
an electric kettle is faster and more convenient than a stovetop
or microwave solution.  

Energy consumption is favorable or better than a stovetop as very
little heat goes other than to heat water (versus a stove, where
heat disapates around and under the pot).

Like an automatic drip coffee maker, it's wise to periodically
clean the inside of the kettle with a vinegar solution.  This
eliminates build-up from minerals in the water.

Here endeth the lesson.
  -- Greg


On Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:40:11PM -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> > Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
> >
> > On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
> > for boiling water.
> >
> > Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
> >
> I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea. 
> 
> Why boil water for tea on a stove or in an electric "kettle" when you
> can put a mug of water in the microwave and have it on the verge of
> boiling in 60 seconds? Probably uses less energy too. 
> 
> Tea you can pick in your back yard.
> 
> Mike
> 





From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Jan  4 12:11:57 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:11:57 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
References: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3A54D90D.6ACE6BC3@sunder.net>


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> Why boil water for tea on a stove or in an electric "kettle" when you
> can put a mug of water in the microwave and have it on the verge of
> boiling in 60 seconds? Probably uses less energy too.

Bad idea:

http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/HTW//microwave_ovens.html

"Why does water react  in a violent and dangerous way when overheated in a microwave oven? CA

Water doesn't always boil when it is heated above its normal boiling temperature (100 0C or 212 0F). The only thing that is certain
is that above that temperature, a steam bubble that forms inside the body of the liquid will be able to withstand the crushing
effects of atmospheric pressure. If no bubbles form, then boiling will simply remain a possibility, not a reality. Something has to
trigger the formation of steam bubbles, a process known as "nucleation." If there is no nucleation of steam bubbles, there will be
no boiling and therefore no effective limit to how hot the water can become.

Nucleation usually occurs at hot spots during stovetop cooking or at defects in the surfaces of cooking vessels. Glass containers
have few or no such defects. When you cook water in a smooth glass container, using a microwave oven, it is quite possible that
there will be no nucleation on the walls of the container and the water will superheat. This situation becomes even worse if the top
surface of the water is "sealed" by a thin layer of oil or fat so that evaporation can't occur, either. Superheated water is
extremely dangerous and people have been severely injured by such water. All it takes is some trigger to create the first bubble-a
fork or spoon opening up the inner surface of the water or striking the bottom of the container-and an explosion follows. I recently
filmed such explosions in my own microwave (low-quality movie (749KB), medium-quality movie (5.5MB)), or high-quality movie
(16.2MB)). As you'll hear in my flustered remarks after "Experiment 13," I was a bit shaken up by the ferocity of the explosion I
had triggered, despite every expectation that it would occur. After that surprise, you'll notice that I became much more concerned
about yanking my hand out of the oven before the fork reached the water. I recommend against trying this dangerous experiment, but
if you must, be extremely careful and don't superheat more than a few ounces of water. You can easily get burned or worse. For a
reader's story about a burn he received from superheated water in a microwave, touch here."




-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




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From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com)
Date: Thu,  4 Jan 2001 15:16:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Alianza Estrategica
Message-ID: <20010104211618.17DBF10CD0@ns.luckyscasino.com>

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From slevy at newsweek.com  Thu Jan  4 12:40:50 2001
From: slevy at newsweek.com (Levy, Steven)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:40:50 -0500 
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.347.1576007487.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

:

Hi, John.  Can you do me a favor and spread the word around 
that I'll be talking about CRYPTO at the Upper West Side Barnes 
and Noble (82nd and Broadway) on TUESDAY (Jan 9) at 7:30 pm?

Hope to see you there!

Steven

-----

Cryptome will provide -- free --- unlimited dinner and liquor 
after Steve's talk -- at a local joint not at our penthouse mansion.
RSVP, please, so we can lay in humongous supplies. You
flying in from the Old Country, tea served.

Let me tell you there are serious cryptographers in this 
favela and their cheapskate employers and legal suckbloods
who will cut Steve no slack if not celebrated in CRYPTO.
We've read it and know who's missing, transatlanticly,
and who told Steve the real story behind non-public
encryption.

Did you know about the NYC connection of Ellis, Diffie, Gilmore,
Venona, ITT, RCA, the Black Chamber, and, get this,
Sunder's current deep shit cracking operation of everything
transiting the Atlantic by undersea and space -- run from a
hole under Brooklyn? Menwith Hill is nothing if not Potemkin.

Then there's Harry Hawk and Perry Metzger, don't even think
about it, but your laundered money's not safe no matter how 
carefully cached a havenco. Numbers they factor, big nums, 
really big nums, and sell results to the worst customers on earth.

CRYPTO tells stuff you wouldn't believe.




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Jan  4 13:50:11 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:50:11 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <vog95togen4oohsm2aia6ajsbn867g9920@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3A54EFF2.EC6AED48@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Craig McKie wrote:
> 
> Americans do not have electric kettles within the intended British
> meaning. They tend not to know what you are talking about. The product
> is absent from the shelves at Target and Walmart.
> 

      Really? I bought my electric kettle at Target, although I bought
my son's at a fancy cookware shop called Wire Wisk at the mall. I use
mine for tea, he uses his to boil water for both coffee and tea. 



> Most Canadian households would have electric kettles where gas cooking
> is not involved. Something about tea-making perhaps?
> 
> O>>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.

       No, furnace is furnace, boiler is boiler.

> > Bear wrote:

> >Hm.  Not all furnaces are boilers.  Basically we use the word
> >"furnace" here to mean the heating unit for a house.  One kind
> >of furnace is a boiler, which heats liquid that then gets
> >circulated through radiators.
> >

      No, that's a mis-use of the word furnace. Furnaces produce hot
forced air heat. Boilers are boilers, either steam or hot water. 


> >Other types of furnaces are electrical, or fired by gas, coal,
> >oil, or wood.  Sometimes they heat a gigantic rock that then
> >radiates heat for days (this arrangement is popular in arid
> >northern and northwestern states).  More often they heat air,
> >channeled through a heat-exchanger by a fan and then circulated
> >directly through the rest of the house via ductwork.
> >
> >Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and
> >I haven't seen a coal-fired furnace since I was a child.
> >They're still out there, though; although they are now illegal
> >for pollution reasons here in CA, there are places in the
> >midwest where once in a while you still find them in use.
> >
> >
     Good grief -- "boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US", eh?
You ought to come up north sometimes. Hot water or steam boilers are
extremely common in homes. I wouldn't have anything else -- in fact, a
house with forced air heat wouldn't even be looked at by my wife or I
for potential purchase, they give really lousy,drafty performace which
dries out your skin and shrivels house plants and generally makes you
miserable all Winter. Hydronic heating is the only way to go. 
     Not only is it better heat, but it also lends itself more readily
to heat storage if you have a combo wood and gas/oil boiler, where you
use a large insulated tank to even out the heat from the higher temp
wood fires. With a wood furnace, the wood burns up, the house gets
overly hot, then the fire goes out and you're cold. 

     Amazing what passes for cryptic comments these days.



-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From kdscskdc at mail.brm.by  Thu Jan  4 16:51:31 2001
From: kdscskdc at mail.brm.by (kdscskdc at mail.brm.by)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:51:31
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <541.170227.58481@mail.mindspring.com>


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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Jan  4 13:51:41 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:51:41 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: End-2000 Alert: John Ashcroft, Clemencies, Hemp Regs]
Message-ID: <3A54F057.4631BBFE@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: End-2000 Alert: John Ashcroft, Clemencies, Hemp Regs
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:43:09 -0500
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: DRCNet <drcnet at drcnet.org>
To: drc-natl at drcnet.org

                 
*************************************************************
         Drug Reform Coordination Network (DRCNet)
                    Rapid Response Team
*************************************************************

    End-2000 Alert:  John Ashcroft, Clemencies, Hemp Regs
    -----------------------------------------------------
                                                       12/28/00

Dear friend of drug law reform:

As the year winds to an end, with Congress in recess and many
of you on vacation, drug reformers are faced with not one, or
even two, but three urgent action items -- as well as a little
bit of good news.  Please take a few moments to call Congress
and the President this week -- it could make all the
difference in the coming year!

URGENT ACTION ITEM #1:  John Ashcroft

As you may have read in mainstream news accounts, Sen. John
Ashcroft, who was defeated for reelection in Missouri by the
late Gov. Mel Carnahan, has been nominated by George W. Bush
to be the next US Attorney General.  It is vital that his
nomination be opposed.  John Ashcroft is one of the most
ideologically extreme drug warriors, and his appointment would
spell trouble for sentencing/prison policies, medical
marijuana, needle exchange, racial profiling, you name it.  We
will be publishing much more information about him in
tomorrow's issue of The Week Online with DRCNet, and will be
issuing detailed action alerts, by January 4th when the new
Senate is sworn in, for opposing him on a state-by-state
basis.

In the meantime, please call your two US Senators and ask them
to oppose the controversial John Ashcroft nomination.  You can
reach your Senators (or find out who they are) by calling the
Congressional Switchboard at (202) 224-3121.  You can also
visit http://www.senate.gov to look up their web sites and
find out their direct numbers in Washington and their local
phone numbers and locations in your state.  Make an in-person
visit if you can!

URGENT ACTION ITEM #2:  Save Industrial Hemp

Drug warriors at the DEA and ONDCP are trying to ban a whole
range of products made with industrial, non-drug hemp.  Their
motivation, ostensibly, is that hemp interferes with drug
testing and creates false positives, causing problems with
federal drug testing programs more complicated.  Really, they
are simply committed to a bizarre ideology that considers hemp
a drug, even though you can't get high with it.  But in doing
so, they are attempting to administratively rewrite 63 years
of US law that clearly makes an exception for low-THC hemp in
the marijuana laws.  Their actions threaten to make a
perfectly legal, fledgling industry and its patrons all
victims of the drug war.

What is happening is that DEA is planning to publish three
"interim rules," which would immediately become effective
while they go through the longer process.  First, the DEA
proposes to change its interpretation of existing law to bring
hemp products within the purview of the Controlled Substances
Act; second, to change DEA regulations to agree with the new
interpretation; and third, to exempt traditional hemp products
not designed for human consumption, such as paper and
clothing, from being subject to the Controlled Substances Act.
(See http://www.drcnet.org/wol/165.html#hempembargo for
further information on the looming Hemp Embargo.)

For the rules to become effective, several federal agencies
have to sign off on them.  The so-called Dept. of Justice has
already done so, but they still have to go through Customs,
Treasury, Commerce, and the Office of Management and Budget.
Please call your US Representative and your two US Senators;
ask them to oppose the DEA's illegal hemp regulations and to
put pressure on these agencies to reject the regulations.
Again, you can reach all three of them via the Congressional
Switchboard at (202) 224-3121, or look up their DC and local
contact information and locations via http://www.senate.gov
and http://www.house.gov on the web.

URGENT ACTION ITEM #3:  Appeal to Clinton for More Clemencies

Less than an hour after the last issue of The Week Online with
DRCNet was published, the news came out that President Bill
Clinton had granted clemencies to two prisoners whose names
are well known to drug reformers:  Dorothy Gaines and Kemba
Smith, now home with their families.  That's the good news;
read more about it in tomorrow's issue.

The action item is to urge Clinton to release more such
prisoners.  There are hundreds of thousands of nonviolent drug
offenders in the nation's penal institutions, tens of
thousands of them in the federal system over which Clinton has
jurisdiction.  It is wonderful that Dorothy and Kemba have
gotten to go home, but two is not enough!

In particular, the 350+ "safety-valve" prisoners should be
released.  These are people who would likely be free today if
they had been sentenced after the passage of the 1994 Crime
Bill, which allowed judges to reduce the sentences of certain
drug offenders who would otherwise get five or ten year
mandatory minimums.  The law was almost passed with
retroactivity, but that fell victim to a frenzied election-
year intersection of drug and gun politics.  Many similar
people's sentences have begun and ended since then.  There is
no reason not to release them.

Another prisoner who deserves to be released is our friend
Todd McCormick, a medical marijuana patient and activist,
whose health is ill-equipped to handle incarceration.  Of
course, there are many prisoners who deserve to be released,
and we will publish more names early next year.

Clinton has until the end of his term, January 20th, to issue
more pardons or clemencies.  Please call the White House
Comment Line at (202) 456-1111, get through to a live
operator, thank the President for releasing Dorothy Gaines and
Kemba Smith but ask him to release more prisoners, such as the
350+ safety-valve prisoners and Todd McCormick, before his
term expires.

Stay tuned for more information and alerts on these urgent
action items.  Please consider making a donation to DRCNet to
help us provide this service.  Contributions from readers like
yourself are our primary means of financing action alerts,
most of which cannot be paid for out of our educational
grants.  Visit http://www.drcnet.org/drcreg.html to make a
donation by credit card or print out a form to mail in, or
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unsubscribe from DRCNet or change your address, send e-mail to
listhelp at drcnet.org and specify your request.





From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jan  4 14:38:06 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:38:06 -0500
Subject: Steven Levy Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <200101042243.RAA08485@smtp6.mindspring.com>



From ryu123 at jasmine.ocn.ne.jp  Thu Jan  4 01:18:20 2001
From: ryu123 at jasmine.ocn.ne.jp (yukio isibasi)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 18:18:20 +0900
Subject: kidsex
Message-ID: <000001c07638$bf345d20$e2540bd3@h3p4d2>



-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video/





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Jan  4 19:06:01 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:06:01 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <cd766fc79cb83298874ed3cbd7e9e8a0@melontraffickers.com>


r ead th an F ortune b egan repo rtedly s hed
Le vins bl essed No-Nam e communic ate th e Pe acefire cg i-bin Standar d

============================== =======================================
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Whi le wage s 770517 0 s upplier Or ange wh ile t he Ora nge: 
shutt ing 24677 699 B illion n ews Tra ffic new sletters 
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ht tp:// Onl ine d ocs
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============================== =======================================
Associ ates 
ht tp:// sai d  surpr ise n ytimes
Edgewat er r eports 797345 type Sm artPortfolio w orked d eep slammin g  MAGAZI NE c ancel:  lin ks Wesolows ki 

Director y M icrosoft's Brinkle y hea vy  st ory bu rial A ntitrust cn et t o neti nsights w on't 
st udents ht tp:// Ju no story =n D avid 

============================== =======================================
mo re Stan dard 
treatme nt Mercur y 829190 ml co m Swept_of f_their_feet numb er netw ork L ook 
Micros oft adver tisement
Th ere's P ost wi ll e ven th e Pa ul
Wor th 
Sput nik7 me rcurycenter 2 00 m edia t hestandard




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 16:59:07 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:59:07 -0500
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <000801c07608$f29a7a80$470222d1@default>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104164737.007b1400@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:48 PM 1/3/01 -0500, graham compton,Jr. wrote:
>   my dog was poisoned by ricin. do you know the  antidote? Thanks, GSC Jr 

There isn't one. His ribosomes have ceased functioning.  No more protein
synthesis.  Bummer.






 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 16:59:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:59:08 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <3A545075.3432B154@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104165437.007b0e50@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:29 AM 1/4/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>I *guess* "kitchen" 

sharp lad

>because in the UK "stove" is an old-fashioned name
>for a cooking device, stuff we used before the invention of gas and
>electric cookers (in fact, before the invention of the cast-iron
>range).  

Yes, artifact to cook on

But for us a "furnace" is an extremely large thing that you get
>steel out of...  not something anyone would find in a basement. Over
>here you put teenagers or washing machines or junk in your basement, not
>furnaces. Actually, in London, they are almost always converted into
>flats & rented out. 

So what do you call the artifacts that warm your homes, and where
are they located?  Boilers and radiators?  Embedded wires?  Fireplaces?
Peat fires?  Mad-cow-dung fires?

>Anyway, surely basements are urban vs. rural? A way of getting more room
>in a restricted space. Do people build them out in the country?

Tim enlightened us IIRC that they have to do with the frost line... you
want to have your lowest slab below it.





 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 17:02:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:02:39 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
References: <Ken Brown's message of "Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:29:27 -0500">
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104165755.007b2450@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:46 AM 1/4/01 -0500, Steve Mynott wrote:
>
>I think "furnace" is "boiler" in English.
>

A modern furnace might burn oil or natural gas and pump hot air into rooms.
An electric -> thermal device might be called a heater.
A boiler implies a working liquid, doesn't it?

Anyway these were American SAT or GRE questions, you furriners have
your own ways :-)





 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 17:14:41 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:14:41 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB16@exna07.securitydyna
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104170937.007b0a60@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:08 PM 1/4/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>2. The 'storage heater'. The CEGB (central electricity 
>generating board) rates were far lower at night
>than during the day or evening. 

Interestingly, this time-dependency has also forced other technology.

Some years ago, the fuzzy logic people were touting a
(german?) dishwasher which was extra quiet because it used their
tech... which is important because Europeans apparently do their
heavy-wattage usage at night, to save costs.  A foreign concept to
Yanks :-)

Your electric meters must cost more.  I once lived in UC grad housing
that had no electric bill (free electricity :-) because it would have cost
too much to install individual meters.






 






  








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan  4 17:17:12 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:17:12 -0500
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
In-Reply-To: <000501c0758f$4c2d3c60$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010104171616.009c9100@idiom.com>



>Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> said:
>>http://slashdot.org (it's a vector to Forbes).

At 09:14 AM 1/3/01 -0500, Roy Silvernail wrote:
> <sigh>
> No, that's Slashdot.

Yup.  It's the URL for the front page, and articles roll off
the bottom as new ones are posted, as Jim knows.

However, the project has some very interesting concepts,
and is worth looking at.   Distributed storage,
M-of-N replication, security handled mainly by
storing only plaintext.  I haven't looked at their approaches to
traffic analysis or anonymity, if any.


> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/03/0628240 
> is the actual Slashdot story.
>
> http://www.forbes.com/futuretech/forbes/2001/0108/242.html 
> is a vector to Forbes.

http://oceanstore.cs.berkeley.edu is the project home page.
Publications are at 
	http://oceanstore.cs.berkeley.edu/publications/index.html

I don't recognize the names of the principals on it - 
are there any Cypherpunks who've worked with them?
More of the real documentation is hidden in the
parent project's pages - 
	http://endeavour.cs.berkeley.edu/presentations.html
has <arrrgh> Microsoft Powerpoint presentations with the good stuff.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Jan  4 12:55:15 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:55:15 -0000
Subject: Microsoft apresenta: 2001
Message-ID: <099ad1555200411WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar estes produtos numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/microsoft.htm> . 


A Microsoft, líder mundial na produção de Software
<http://www.giganetstore.com/Channels/SoftwareAndGames/Main.asp?ChannelI
d=6> , lançou a sua gama de produtos para o ano 2001. 
A giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com> , com a entrada no novo
milénio, propõe-lhe associar-se à empresa que melhor personifica tudo o
que as novas tecnologias representam e que está na vanguarda, marcando o
caminho para as restantes. 
No caso de já ser um utilizador Microsoft aproveitamos também para lhe
sugerir 3 actualizações (Upgrades) para o seu sistema operativo, o
Windows Millennium (versões portuguesa e inglesa) e o Windows 98 second
edition (versão portuguesa). 
 
Greetings 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8031>  
4.390$00

Encarta Interactive World Atlas 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8056>  
6.390$00

Encarta Encyclopidia Deluxe 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8641>  
13.790$00

Encarta Reference Suite 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8643>  
21.590$00

Encarta World English Dictionary 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8645>  
6.390$00

Picture-it Premium 2001
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8647>  
6.450$00

Windows Millennium, actualização, versão Inglesa
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=6211>  
23.590$00

Windows Millennium, actualização, versão Portuguesa
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=6212>  
23.490$00

Windows 98 Second Edition, actualização, versão Portuguesa
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=8686>  
22.290$00 


Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a
opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos
serviços. 
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From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Jan  4 17:59:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:59:18 -0500
Subject: NSA runs best fab in world
In-Reply-To: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010104175456.007b3210@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:50 PM 1/4/01 -0500, sunder wrote:
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/15779.html
>
>
>NSA runs best fab in world

Commercial fabs are enormously constrained by profitability: 
you could build huge chips except the yield drops, because a single
error usually trashes the chip.  The NSA doesn't need to worry about
profitability.

The NSA gets to play with expensive (GaAs) high-performance processes
that are only used commercially when necessary.

The NSA could make low volumes of chips using E-beam tech which is not
commercially used (because each chip has to be carved individually instead
of printed en masse).  This would let them make features *much much* finer
than
the very hard UV of the optolitho future.  This means faster, denser chips.

And they get to do long-term R&D into far out architectures, processes,
materials, etc.  

Sounds like a fun job, but no stock options, among other problems :-)




 






  








From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Thu Jan  4 18:14:22 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:14:22 -0500
Subject: OceanStore - anonymous and distributed data storage?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010104171616.009c9100@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101042112540.888-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> More of the real documentation is hidden in the
> parent project's pages - 
> 	http://endeavour.cs.berkeley.edu/presentations.html
> has <arrrgh> Microsoft Powerpoint presentations with the good stuff.

The list of Project People only has one person on "cryptography" - Steve
Weiss. His paper on security issues for a file system on top of OceanStore
can be found at
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sweis/cs261.ps






From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Jan  4 12:30:18 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu,  4 Jan 2001 21:30:18 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Spooky Post Office
Message-ID: <dbe72695224e1d6cbe14ad70b0a2f7cd@dizum.com>



I've recently moved, many, many miles from my old home, but within the same state.  I did not however inform the post office of my new address, hoping to ditch the 2-3 lbs a week of junk mail and crap.

I did inform most of the important services/places of the address change (credit card co's, bills, etc.)

One magazine, I did forget to inform.  The mag in question is the NRA's America's First Freedom, which spooks me even more...

Among several other mails bearing my NEW address, last night, this magazine arrived at my NEW address, however it bore the OLD address.  

So somehow the post office was able to redirect the mail to my new address without the label on this magazine stating the new address!  

Again, if you move and inform the post office, your old-addressed mail arrives at your door with a yellow sticker with the new address.  THIS WAS NOT the case here!!!

I must say, I'm quite spooked by this!

I have also seen this happen before with snail-mail spam where the address was mangled (wrong street, or wrong number, but same zip code) so I figured that the post office figured it out and got it to me since it was the same particular branch (same zip).  But this is in a totally different zip code, about 50 miles away from my old residence.

How the fuck did they do this?  It's certainly means that addresses are snarfed and kept in a database, but further more, how is the post office delivery guy able to figure out which house to send it to without the explicit address on it?

It's enough to make one very paranoid.

[This was not an old issue of the 1st Freedom.  It was the January 2001 issue and I hadn't received it, so it's not a question of it falling off the moving truck and having some kind soul put it in my mail box.  It was recently mailed just after I moved!]


I've had another (possibly unrelated) strange incident occur at this location.  Shortly after moving in, I drove out to meet a friend for dinner.  As I left the house, I noticed a rental van pull in and make a u-turn so he was parked exactly outside my house.  Around this area, there are ample garages and driveways, so it's very unlikely to see anyone parked on the street.

As soon as I pulled out of the drive way, the van followed for a while.  Noticing this, I pulled off to the right, as if I was going to visit another house.  The van was behind me and hesitated for about 10 seconds behind me, then drove off.  He pulled over about a block infront of me.  As I took off and passed him, I saw in my rear view mirror that he was shining a flashlight out of the right side - aiming it at the house which he now pulled infront of.  As I passed him again, he followed again for a bit, and then made a turn.

This guy was being way too obvious, so it's not a Fed or a spook (unless they want to be obvious.)

I took this as a possible theif and beefed up house security... but this along with the mail incident is just bizzarre...

Any ideas?  (No, I'm not smoking crack or wearing tin foil hats.)




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jan  4 19:35:03 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:35:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [psychohistory]  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010104213457.14390x-200000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 03:06:26 +0200
From: George Pappas <vagelford at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: psychohistory at egroups.com
To: psychohistory at egroups.com
Subject: [psychohistory] 

Here is a mail I received and I think will interest the group :

STOCK MARKET: FOLLOW THE LEADER
To make money in the stock market, you have to understand risk.
Physicists have been using statistical physics methods to analyze
markets in order to better understand market risks, such as the
probability that a large shift in market value will occur during a
year-long interval. Real markets have a higher probability of
experiencing large changes than conventional "pure chance" would
predict, and econophysicists have suggested many schemes to explain
this fact. The latest idea, reported in the 25 December PRL, points
to the "herding behavior" for which traders are famous. The authors
describe a simple computer model where information networks grow
randomly until entire "clusters" of traders act on the news and then
wait for the next "rumor mill" to grow. The model predicts price
fluctuations similar to those of real markets.
(V. M. Egu‘luz and M. G. Zimmermann, Phys. Rev. Lett. 85, 5659.
COMPLETE Focus story at http://focus.aps.org/v6/st28.html
Link to the paper: http://publish.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v85/p5659/)

Attempts like that one could create a good basis for the development of a theory of psychohistory.

Vagelford
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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Jan  4 21:13:04 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:13:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Physical Meet: Austin, Tx. Tue. Jan. 9
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010104230911.14390J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Time:                Jan 9, 2001
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

            The future is downloading. Can you hear the impact?

                                        O[rphan] D[rift>]
                                        Cyber Positive

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

>From owner-hell-outgoing at ssz.com  Sun Jan 23 09:37:10 2000
Return-Path: <owner-hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Received: (from mdom at localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15293
	for hell-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:36:39 -0600
Received: from localhost (ravage at localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15289
	for <hell at einstein.ssz.com>; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:36:24 -0600
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:36:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
To: The Club Inferno <hell at einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Inferno: Austin Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Correction
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000123093433.7178f-100000 at einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-hell at ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: hell at ssz.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Time:                Jan. 29, 2000
                     Last Saturday of each month
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        The group does not support a local mailing list
                     right now. Other than the physical meetings, announced
                     on  cypherpunks at ssz.com, there are currently no
                     additional resources. If you have a question please join
                     the CDR and post your question (short and simple please).
                     One of us will respond appropriately.







From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Jan  4 21:57:10 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:57:10 -0500
Subject: Clinton Creates Post to Protect Nation's Secrets 
Message-ID: <c96f76112b32ca6ee71733154af041d3@mixmaster.shinn.net>


By JAMES RISEN
 

ASHINGTON, Jan. 4 � President Clinton has issued an order reorganizing the government's counterintelligence efforts, creating a new czar with a broad mandate to identify potential security threats and vulnerabilities, administration officials said today. 

The directive, signed in the waning days of Mr. Clinton's administration, creates a National Counterintelligence Executive charged with bringing a forward-looking, post-cold-war mentality to counterintelligence. Officials say the post is designed as the counterintelligence equivalent to the nation's drug czar. 

The executive's central task will be to try to determine which secrets held by the government or the private sector are so valuable that they need to be protected from the nation's adversaries. The czar will also try to assess which secrets are of special interest to other nations, and then bring together the F.B.I., C.I.A. and other agencies to determine whether those countries are making efforts to obtain them. 

A spokesman for the Bush transition team referred all questions about the plan to the White House and declined to say whether transition officials had been consulted. Once in office, Mr. Bush could decide to change the plan without Congressional approval. 

But the reorganization and the newly created post have the strong backing of F.B.I. Director Louis J. Freeh, who is staying in his post into the Bush administration, and Central Intelligence Director George J. Tenet, whose tenure also may overlap. 

Administration officials and others familiar with the plan say that the czar will not be in charge of managing individual spy cases and that the Federal Bureau of Investigation will retain its lead role in counterespionage investigations. The C.I.A. will also retain its own counterintelligence center, which conducts investigations within the agency. 

But officials said that the new office of the counterintelligence executive would replace the existing National Counterintelligence Center, which was created after the 1994 arrest of Aldrich Ames, the C.I.A. officer who pleaded guilty to spying for Moscow for nine years. 

On paper, the existing agency also had a broad mandate to coordinate government efforts to identify counterintelligence threats, but several officials said that it had failed to live up to that role. Some critics in the government say that the counterintelligence center never had the stature or influence to command cooperation between government agencies. 

The Clinton administration may name a counterintelligence czar before the president leaves office, officials said today. Although it unclear whether the administration had consulted the transition team, Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the leading Republican on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has been generally supportive of the reorganization effort, a Shelby aide said. 

The counterintelligence overhaul comes in the wake of the furor over the government's handling of the case of Wen Ho Lee, the scientist fired from his job at Los Alamos National Laboratory and charged with mishandling classified information. Although he pleaded guilty to one count related to downloading and copying nuclear data from Los Alamos, other charges were dropped. Officials say that Mr. Freeh advocated the reorganization in response to the flaws in the way that case was handled. 

"This should solve a lot of the shortcomings we have in the present environment," said one senior law enforcement official. 

Officials say that the key to the reorganization will be that the leading counterintelligence official in the government would no longer be simply responding to an investigation of an individual spy case, but would rather be focused on broad efforts to determine what secrets might be most tantalizing to other countries. Those secrets could be at the Pentagon or at a high-tech corporation, and the czar will be able to go to the F.B.I., C.I.A. and other agencies and begin to develop plans to make sure those secrets are secure before any spies have gotten to them. 

The czar's job will be to "identify the universe of stuff that it would be unthinkable if we lost," one official said. 

"This job is to figure out what must be protected. The person in this job, I would think, would spend the first year going around to everybody in the government and business asking what people believe we absolutely have to protect, and then coming up with a judgment about what really are the nation's crown jewels, as opposed to just costume jewelry. Part of the disconnect we have today in the government is that we don't even know what it is that it's unthinkable for us to lose as a nation." 

The reorganization plan has support among intelligence policy experts on Capitol Hill, many of whom say the government is usually on the defensive, simply reacting to the latest spy case. The government has "been spending an inordinate amount of time looking in the rear view mirror," said Senator Bob Graham, a Florida Democrat and member of the Senate intelligence committee who has been pushing for a counterintelligence reorganization. As a result, "we didn't look to see what was coming at us in the future."

Several officials acknowledged that it was still too early to determine whether the czar will have the clout to manage such a sweeping change in the way counterintelligence is managed. That clout will be largely determined by the executive's relations with his office's four- member board, composed of the F.B.I. director, the deputy director of Central Intelligence, the deputy secretary of defense, and a representative of the Attorney General. The czar will also report directly to the deputies committee at the National Security Council and will have access to all secrets related to counterintelligence cases, officials said. 

The power of the czar "is going to depend on who they put in the job," said one Republican congressional aide.







From petro at bounty.org  Fri Jan  5 02:16:36 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 02:16:36 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <p04320431b67b4ee28877@[10.1.1.42]>



>
>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and

	No they aren't. Out of 5 apartments I lived in in Chicago, 4 
of them had steam heat. So did the apartments of most of my friends.

	My grandmother's house in Saint Louis has/had a boiler and steam heat.



-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From minarica at excite.com  Fri Jan  5 06:47:14 2001
From: minarica at excite.com (minarica at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:47:14
Subject: Free Visa Card and Great Referral Bonuses
Message-ID: <200101051245.EAA16012@cyberpass.net>


Hi  ,

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 09:10:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:10:14 -0800
Subject: Announcing Cypherpunks-India
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010105091014.007975a0@idiom.com>

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From gomes at navigo.com  Fri Jan  5 07:35:50 2001
From: gomes at navigo.com (Carlos Macedo Gomes)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:35:50 -0500
Subject: Know Cisco, know toad.com
Message-ID: <001b01c0772d$418b0f40$cf6525a9@cgomesw2k>



I found it a bit interesting that toad.com was used as an example source for
network probes detected by a network based IDS:
http://www.knowcisco.com/content/0735708681/ch01s02.shtml

ymmv,
C.G.

--
gomes at navigo.com
Carlos Macedo Gomes
_sic itur ad astra_
1;




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan  5 10:45:22 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:45:22 -0800
Subject: NSA runs best fab in world
In-Reply-To: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>
References: <3A54B8CB.3B880BDA@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <a05010405b67bc57b704f@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:54 PM -0500 1/4/01, sunder wrote:
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/15779.html
>
>
>NSA runs best fab in world
>By: Mike Magee
>Posted: 03/01/2001 at 13:03 GMT
>
>You might think that AMD's Dresden fab is state-of-the-art 
>technology. You might also suspect that Intel and IBM have some 
>pretty
>nifty technology too, lurking in their clean rooms and in their labs.
>
>
>And you might be right as far as the commercial world goes. But 
>there's a fab, owned by the US government, and run by the National
>Security Agency (NSA), which is supposed to knock them into a cocked hat.
>


I wouldn't believe this for a picosecond. Lots of reasons. For one 
thing, most of their needs are for building fairly low-tech (designed 
long ago) PALs, PLAs, gate arrays, ROMs, etc.

Cutting edge communications or CPU chips _are_ extremely 
yield-sensitive, even for a "cost is no object" fab. No way that a 
little tiny fab on Ft. Meade property, as we understand the NSA fab 
to be, is making processing chips to compete with Alphas, Pentiums, 
and UltraSparc IIIs.

Lots of other reasons.

Frankly, we're seeing _way_ too many articles forwarded from the "UK 
Register." This is an entertaining Web site, but well over half of 
the stuff they publish is flaky speculation. The "journalists" who 
write for the Register often don't even get the names of 
industry-standard terms right.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From grandvirtu.com at cyberpass.net  Fri Jan  5 08:39:53 2001
From: grandvirtu.com at cyberpass.net (grandvirtu.com at cyberpass.net)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:39:53 -0500
Subject: I have tried them all........this one is for real....!
Message-ID: <200101051648.IAA02628@cyberpass.net>




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From phil.f.vanaria at usago.ksc.nasa.gov  Fri Jan  5 09:19:05 2001
From: phil.f.vanaria at usago.ksc.nasa.gov (Vanaria, Phil F)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:19:05 -0500 
Subject: When they came for the Jews... 
Message-ID: <114E43AA5F76D411B62E00508B95A9370265E242@kscgrndexc1>


Dear folks at Cypherpunk,

I was at your website and saw the title "When they came for the Jews... "
I know that this is from a quote / poem, but I'm foggy on who wrote it, or
the title of it.
If you could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

Phil








From rachellelacy at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  5 09:52:52 2001
From: rachellelacy at hotmail.com (Rachelle Lacy)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:52:52 -0500
Subject: "sexyfun"
Message-ID: <OE528xS4yxhLvNCssau0000654b@hotmail.com>

FYI:

We don't appriciate being sent these things leave me alone.<br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan  5 10:00:29 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:00:29 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <vog95togen4oohsm2aia6ajsbn867g9920@4ax.com> <3A54EFF2.EC6AED48@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3A560BA8.6F9AD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
>      Amazing what passes for cryptic comments these days.

Maybe it *is* crypto? The email equivalent of a numbers station. Who
knows whether or not:
" Please remove "Shanah Tovah" item which appears after  doing a search
of my name Cheryl Gilan."
is in fact a cryptic message to release an ETA bomb squad somewhere in
Spain?

David Honig wrote:
> So what do you call the artifacts that warm your homes, and where
> are they located?  Boilers and radiators?  Embedded wires?  Fireplaces?
> Peat fires?  Mad-cow-dung fires?

Boilers. No-one I know uses hot air to heat a domestic house though you
do get it in some large commercial buildings.

These days they are smaller, and sit on the wall, often in a cupboard.
They no longer store water, just heat it up on the way through. I should
think that 99% of all new houses and flats use that sort. Mine is in a
sort of broom-cupboard beside the toilet. Older ones tend to be largish
lagged things, often in the attic (i.e. space below the roof).

John Young wrote:
> In New York City, there is an important distinction between
> cellar and basement. Cellars are not habitable while
> basements are. The building code definition of a basement
> is that at least half its height is above street level, and that
> of cellar is that just over half its height is below street
> level. Many residential buildings are designed to
> take advantage of that distinction. The rule covers
> sloping site conditions to average the difference between
> front and back.

500 years ago "cellar" didn't necessarily imply underground at all. When
brick came into general use in domestic houses it enabled the building
of cheap chimneys, which enabled the older "hall" houses to be divided
by a floor into an upstairs and a downstairs. In many medium-sized
houses the family moved upstairs (in larger ones they were already there
at one end of the hall in the "solar") leaving the business (kitchen,
goods, servants, animals) below. Some houses used brick or stone to
reinforce the floor, erecting pillars to support it & that became a
"cellar" whether or not it was below street level. Chimneys, ceilings,
furniture, printing & Protestantism all became common in England in one
generation sometime in the late 15th or early 16th century. OK, the
Protestantism was a little later.

Harmon Seaver wrote:
>       In different areas of the US we have different tems for the thing get water
> out of at the sink. In the south it's often called spigot, and in the north
> faucet. Also tap. What do you Brits call that?

Tap. We find the word "faucet" funny, it sounds as if it should be
slightly obscene, a good example of the US habit of never using a short
word when a long one will do. But when I found myself amongst Americans
I was slightly disappointed to find that they almost all say "tap" these
days. Just as they say "car" instead of "automobile". You are obviously
all watching too much British TV, or listening to too many British rock
bands. You should defend your language against this tide of old-world
vulgarity.




Ken Brown





From mike3 at info-web-prods.com  Fri Jan  5 05:47:05 2001
From: mike3 at info-web-prods.com (mike3 at info-web-prods.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:47:05 +0000
Subject: safe fast diet
Message-ID: <5x4m5d5kxr6.7c7j4ukhih4@dialup11.websitedirectors.net>



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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan  5 10:57:43 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:57:43 -0500
Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010104165437.007b0e50@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10012260154280.20225-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010406b67bc72fd69a@[207.111.241.40]>


At 7:59 PM -0500 1/4/01, David Honig wrote:
>At 05:29 AM 1/4/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>>Anyway, surely basements are urban vs. rural? A way of getting more room
>>in a restricted space. Do people build them out in the country?
>
>Tim enlightened us IIRC that they have to do with the frost line... you
>want to have your lowest slab below it.

Yes, basements are mainly intended to put the foundation below the 
frost heave line. Failure to do this means that as the ground below 
the foundation freezes and thaws and freezes and thaws...the 
foundation moves and cracks and all sorts of bad stuff.

(There are approaches being pioneered in Scandinavia to allow 
suitably-build foundations which don't need basements.)

BTW, in places where the frost heave line is so far below the surface 
as to be unreachable with conventional basements, houses are often 
elevated above the ground. Permafrost regions in Siberia, for 
example. In most places a conventional 2-3-meter deep basement is 
adequate to get below the heave line.


As I noted in my reply to Ray Dillinger--which he graciously 
acknowledged to be correct!--California (and Arizona, and most of 
Oregon that I saw) rarely have basements. None of the houses I looked 
at in south Texas had basements, either. (No frost heave.) Sometimes 
people want them as a way of getting extra space, but this is fairly 
rare. And in many regions the water table is not far below the 
surface, so basements are, as they say, "contraindicated."

Basements have essentially nothing to do with keeping a house cool in 
the summer.

Though basements and cellars did serve a purpose, besides the frost 
heave considerations, of being a place to store vegetables ("root 
cellar") and as a place to retreat to during tornados ("storm 
cellar").

California's energy problems today are market problems, not caused by 
lack of basements!

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From declan at well.com  Fri Jan  5 11:48:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:48:13 -0500
Subject: Where John Ashcroft stands on technology: A mixed bag
Message-ID: <mailman.348.1576007487.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>



http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41008,00.html

   Top Cop Arrives With Mixed Bag
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Jan. 5, 2001 PST
   
   For liberal Democrats, John Ashcroft is a maddening symbol of
   everything wrong with a George W. Bush presidency -- from the former
   senator's staunch opposition to abortion to his alleged insensitivity
   regarding race.
   
   To conservatives, Bush's nominee for attorney general represents
   precisely the opposite extreme: A respected leader who will restore
   integrity to a Justice Department brought low by the Clinton
   administration. Ashcroft opposes background checks at gun shows,
   supports increased penalties for drug offenses and would not prohibit
   discrimination based on sexual orientation.
   
   On technology issues, Ashcroft's record as a Missouri governor and
   senator is mixed. He seems genuinely to believe in privacy rights and
   economic liberty, and has taken a moderate position on intellectual
   property and fair-use rights.
   
   But free-speech groups already are girding themselves for the legal
   equivalent of trench warfare, predicting that newly emboldened
   Department of Justice prosecutors will launch an assault on sexually
   explicit material online. And Microsoft foes fret that the antitrust
   division's commitment to the high-profile antitrust case may wane.
   
   On one point everyone can agree: More than any other Cabinet member,
   the next attorney general will be in a position to make crucial
   decisions with far-reaching effects on antitrust enforcement, privacy
   protections and free speech rights.
   
   "An Ashcroft DOJ could be a decidedly mixed bag for the high-tech
   sector since he will be engaged in a constant balancing act on most
   industry issues," says Adam Thierer, an analyst at the free-market
   Cato Institute who's well connected in Republican technology circles.
   
   "While Ashcroft has a very strong record of support for loosening
   encryption controls, he may be faced with pressure from GOP
   law-and-order types to moderate his views on this and also be willing
   to continue, or even expand FBI efforts like Carnivore," Thierer said.
   
   Make that a near certainty. It's a fair bet that pro-law enforcement
   conservatives in the mold of wiretap-happy Rep. Bill McCollum of
   Florida, who unsuccessfully ran for the state's open Senate seat, will
   view a Republican DOJ as an opportunity to expand government
   surveillance and wiretapping powers.
   
   Liberal Democrats have vowed opposition to Ashcroft's nomination --
   People for the American Way even assembled a detailed criticism of the
   nominee -- but privately confide that they don't expect to
   successfully block his confirmation by the Senate.
   
   Wiretapping and Carnivore:
   
   Under Attorney General Janet Reno, a DOJ panel has reviewed the FBI's
   controversial Carnivore surveillance system and extended a tentative
   blessing. But critics panned the review board as uniformly
   pro-government, as first reported by Wired News, and independent
   researchers refused to participate in the process.
   
   Ashcroft is the former two-term attorney general and two-term governor
   of Missouri. During his time there, he cemented his reputation as a
   solid conservative eager to lower taxes and build new prisons.

   [...]


----- End forwarded message -----




From lists at politechbot.com  Fri Jan  5 12:16:28 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:16:28 -0500
Subject: Where John Ashcroft stands on technology: A mixed bag
Message-ID: <20010105151628.A32509@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----


From plgriffiths at acf-int.co.uk  Fri Jan  5 07:24:53 2001
From: plgriffiths at acf-int.co.uk (Paul Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:24:53 -0000
Subject: Lotus 123  Password
Message-ID: <000801c0772b$abccd200$a9c8a8c0@LANmodem>

SOS
I have lost password to a 123.97 spreadsheet. Any advice would be much appreciated
Thanx
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From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan  5 17:30:22 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:30:22 -1000
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <p04320431b67b4ee28877@[10.1.1.42]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105152821.00b1cb50@flex.com>


At 02:16 AM 1/5/01 -0800, petro wrote:
 >
 >>
 >>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and
 >
 >	No they aren't. Out of 5 apartments I lived in in Chicago, 4
 >of them had steam heat. So did the apartments of most of my friends.
 >
 >	My grandmother's house in Saint Louis has/had a boiler and steam heat.

The hospital in the town I grew up in had one for heating, and emergency
power in case of brown/black-outs.  It was functional and operating, when
as a lad of 15 or so, I ventured down to the basement one day.  Figure mid
1970s, for timeframe.

Reese




From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan  5 17:31:18 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:31:18 -1000
Subject: Lotus 123  Password
In-Reply-To: <000801c0772b$abccd200$a9c8a8c0@LANmodem>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105153056.00be76e0@flex.com>

Prove that you ever had the password.  If you can.

At 03:24 PM 1/5/01 +0000, Paul Griffiths wrote:
>SOS
>I have lost password to a 123.97 spreadsheet. Any advice would be much 
>appreciated
>Thanx
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan  5 14:20:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:20:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement - January 5, 2001 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010105162041.25692F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:24:09 -0500
From: PA List Manager <statelists at STATE.GOV>
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement - January 5, 2001

Worldwide Caution - Public Announcement
January 5, 2001

The Department of State remains concerned about the possibility for
terrorist actions against United States citizens and interests throughout
the world.  American citizens are reminded of the need to remain vigilant
with regard to their personal security.  This Public Announcement is not in
response to any one particular threat or event but to emphasize the U.S.
Government's ongoing concern for the security of Americans overseas.

The Department of State continues to receive reports that prompt concern
about the safety and security of both official U.S. Government personnel and
private American citizens worldwide.  As always, we take this information
seriously.  As a result, U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a
heightened state of alert.  In addition, U.S. Government facilities have and
will continue to temporarily close or suspend public services as necessary
to review their security posture and ensure its adequacy.

In light of the above, U.S. citizens are urged to maintain a high level of
vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness
to reduce their vulnerability.  Americans should maintain a low profile,
vary routes and times for all required travel, and treat mail and packages
from unfamiliar sources with suspicion. In addition, American citizens are
also urged to avoid contact with any suspicious, unfamiliar objects, and to
report their presence to local authorities.  Vehicles should not be left
unattended, if at all possible, and should be kept locked at all times.
U.S. Government personnel overseas have been advised to take the same
precautions.

U.S. citizens planning to travel abroad should consult the Department of
State's Public Announcements, Travel Warnings, Consular Information Sheets,
and regional travel brochures, all of which are available at the Consular
Affairs Internet web site at http://travel.state.gov.  We will continue to
provide updated information should it become available.  American citizens
overseas may contact the American Citizens Services unit of the nearest U.S.
Embassy or Consulate by telephone or fax for up-to-date information on
security conditions.  In addition, American citizens in need of emergency
assistance should telephone the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate before
visiting the Embassy or Consulate.

This Public Announcement replaces the Public Announcement - Worldwide
Caution of October 12, 2000, and it expires on June 7, 2001.

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
State Department Travel Warnings
************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs.html




From cecarl at whtt.org  Fri Jan  5 15:02:03 2001
From: cecarl at whtt.org (cecarl at whtt.org)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:02:03 -0500
Subject: HeadsUp!  Return of the Body Snatchers
Message-ID: <200101052301.QAA01215@mai1.ghijk.com>


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 This is Edition 1-1 of "Pharisee Watch" a free internet service of We Hold These Truths. Future weekly editions will bear that title, please look for them.  This is an opt in mailing intended for those who want to receive it.  If you have received this mailing in error, or if you wish to withdraw, please follow the instructions at the end.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE BODY SNATCHER'S REPORT ON ON PLANET EARTH:

Imagine a clandestine business visitor to our planet from another galaxy.  His purpose is to determine if Earth is worth acquiring.  If so, can it be bought or must it be conquered?  Our visitor has done this before and is an expert evaluator.  He is not to be detoured by prejudices or preconceived notions of power or virtue, and he is equipped with ice cold, near perfect insight and wisdom born of a race of conquerors.

Our uninvited visitor quickly determines that a place called America is the unquestioned jewel of the planet.  It boasts the highest growth, industrial might, agricultural production, and capital base on planet Earth.  This space auditor decides that America also has the unchallenged military technology to rule the world, and perhaps the entire galaxy.

Our visitor wonders how this country accomplished this preeminence.  He notes that the period of greatest growth and productivity in America appears to have occurred during a time of cultural freedom and fervor, and that the dominant cultural standard or code is called Christianity.  He measures the predominance of this culture, not by the number or size of relic cathedrals, but by the number of persons who regularly meet in meeting halls called churches.  He notices that many, but not all, of these people worship a higher being.

Our visitor observes with curiosity that at the beginning of the 21st Century there are more churchgoers in America than in the rest of the world combined.  He also notices that Americans voluntarily contribute enormous amounts of their paper currency to others, often quite sacrificially.  His review of American history reveals that the relationship of Christianity to its government and its education system is informal but traditional, dating back to the founding of the country, but it has declined rapidly in the last half of the 20th century.  Furthermore, he does not fail to notice a direct relationship between America's lawfulness and the church attendance habits of its people.

Being of superior intelligence, the intergalactic agent heads straight for the meat of the matter.  Who runs things in America, and therefore, the planet?  He knows from experience that this is the first question he will be asked by his superiors.  He must find out with absolute certainty with whom he must deal, or with whom he must make war.  His commander will want the names of the behind-the-scenes leaders, not the clearly visible functionaries.

This alien visitor, by use of superior technology, can compress a lifetime of study (for an earthling) into a few hours.  He will unravel the control puzzle by listening through some very thick walls, by scanning documents inside sealed vaults of guarded places, and by reading the minds of those who seemed to be powerful.

After making such a study, our brainy visitor arrives at a startling conclusion.  His report states that Americans appear to manage and govern themselves through a complex but seemingly workable process, but this is illusory.  In fact a very small, active minority, identifiable by a different written culture code, rules.  After making a study of the religious documents of this ruling minority, he labels them the "anti-Christians."

The analyst notes that, in spite of the aggressive antagonism of the minority for the Christian majority, the reverse is not true.  He observes that the Christian majority seems unable to recognize the antipathy of their adversary toward them, and that this produces in them a condition that is characteristic of servitude.  He notes, however, that the relationship is not one of slave and owner; indeed, it appears to be one of willing host and benign parasite.

The space traveler observes that those who identify themselves as "Christians" are a clear voting majority; but the anti-Christians (in plain sight of all) control the media, press, banking system and entertainment.  He also observed that anti-Christians occupy a disproportionate number of the functionary and policy setting jobs through which they dominate representative government.  He noted that the anti-Christians seemed to have a hypnotic power over their hosts, causing the Christians to accept anti-Christian culture and the veneration of anti-Christian shrines and symbols.

The observer at first believed that the anti-Christians are a superior race (not unlike his own) with a genetic predisposition for administration and control.  They might be from another planet that had successfully invaded and domesticated the Christian majority.  So overwhelming was the number of anti-Christian functionaries in the highest and most influential offices of Earth that he could not imagine why there are so few Christians in  revolt.

However, this outer space scout is able to dismiss the thought that the anti-Christians are a superhuman race from another galaxy.  A brief visit to the home colony of the anti-Christians, the place he has named "Xion," convinces him otherwise.  There  he finds the anti-Christians were indeed human, possessing all the frailties he has observed elsewhere on the planet.  Despite being a clear majority they ruled Xion quite badly.  He was stunned to find that the anti-Christians, who control the Christians so well in America, live in a state of perpetual war and strife in their own homeland.  Xion's economy is feeble and its currency depreciated, and an impoverished but devout minority faction is in near constant revolt.  The anti-Christian home colony is wracked with inflation and dominated by an unhealthy military establishment.  It survives on doles from other nations and employs systematic state terror and torture to enforce obedience and order upon its dissident minority.

Satisfied with his trip, the planet traveler returns to his space ship to write his report.  He states: "The capture of Planet Earth is a cinch and is well worth the trouble.  Three percent of the population controls everything.  We have only to take over and eradicate that tiny anti-Christian minority and assume their role to run the entire planet at our will.  We will pretend to be them.  The Christians are the key to earth's productivity.  They need not even know our revolution is going on."  His report then warns: "Our success requires complete and total elimination of the anti-Christian faction from all positions of authority.  Their capacity for mischief and abuse of power seems to be unlimited.  Earth's historical records clearly show that the anti-Christians' rapacious greed results from the written code of their culture, which most will not abandon.  There is little room for trust or for any lasting negotiated business arrangement with them."

The intergalactic visitor then comments of the Christians: "The earthlings known as Christians, for reasons I have not yet determined, but which are certainly related to their code of culture, are trusting, malleable, and easy to deceive.  They are not likely to revolt so long as they can be convinced their oppressors are their friends and share the code of their culture."  He concludes: "The best way to control them is the same way the anti-Christians control them-through manipulation of their own church leaders." --Eric Blair

Copyright 2000, may be reproducible in full only, with permission.

We Hold These Truths
4839 E. Greenway Road, #151
Scottsdale, AZ 85254
(http://www.whtt.org) 
480-947-3329

If you wish to help WHTT, please type "Cloudseeder" in the SUBJECT.
To withdraw please reply  "Remove" in the SUBJECT LINE








From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jan  5 10:04:56 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:04:56 +0000
Subject: When they came for the Jews...
References: <114E43AA5F76D411B62E00508B95A9370265E242@kscgrndexc1>
Message-ID: <3A560CC8.51853757@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


We don't have a website.  But the quote is supposed to be Martin
Niemvller

"In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the
Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for
the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me - and by
that time there was nobody left to speak up." 

No doubt Tom Vogt has the original auf Deutsch.

Ken Brown


"Vanaria, Phil F" wrote:
> 
> Dear folks at Cypherpunk,
> 
> I was at your website and saw the title "When they came for the Jews... "
> I know that this is from a quote / poem, but I'm foggy on who wrote it, or
> the title of it.
> If you could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Phil




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 18:36:56 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:36:56 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105152821.00b1cb50@flex.com>
References: <p04320431b67b4ee28877@[10.1.1.42]>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101040851440.10588-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010105183656.00941a90@idiom.com>



> >>Actual boiler-type furnaces are quite rare in the US, and
> >
> >	No they aren't. Out of 5 apartments I lived in in Chicago, 4
> >of them had steam heat. So did the apartments of most of my friends.
> >
> >	My grandmother's house in Saint Louis has/had a boiler and steam heat.

It's strongly related to the age of the building,
as well as climate, fuel costs and convenience, etc.
Most modern construction uses forced-air heating,
it's cheap, responds rapidly, doesn't take up room space, and
the ductwork can be used for central air-conditioning.
My condo in Silicon Valley uses electric baseboard heat,
which was a fad in the 60s and 70s when electricity was cheap,
and has high ceilings so it doesn't need A/C in this climate.
My apartment in Berkeley 20+ years ago had a gas-fired wall heater,
relatively small and efficient for a 3-room place.
My house in New Jersey, built in 1931, had steam radiators,
with an oil-fired boiler that was originally coal-fired;
my sister's house in Delaware is a bit older and 
has hot-water radiators.  

I paid less for winter heat in the Berkeley apartment
than I did for summer electricity in New Jersey;
I pay more now for winter heat in this mild California climate
than I did in New Jersey where the winter gets reasonably cold,
because electricity's more expensive than oil (even with
lower night-time prices) and high ceilings are much better
for keeping cool in the summer than warm in the winter,
plus nobody bothered to insulate buildings out here in the 70s.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Fri Jan  5 15:49:38 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:49:38 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <200101052349.SAA23861@domains.invweb.net>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From udhay at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 05:27:08 2001
From: udhay at pobox.com (Udhay Shankar N)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:57:08 +0530
Subject: [IRR] Announcing Cypherpunks-India
Message-ID: <mailman.349.1576007487.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

***Please circulate to all interested parties***

This is to announce the Cypherpunks-India mailing list. The list is
for cypherpunks in India, and for those who want to track the
convergence of cryptography, politics and society here.

As you know, I volunteered to organise cypherpunks fleshmeets in
Bangalore a few months ago. We had an initial meet with some hoopla,
along with the Linux-India monthly meet in Bangalore. Public
meetings, however, have not happened since then (as opposed to the
private meetings and interactions - you know who you are.). It's been
difficult co-ordinating with people, who are mostly madly busy and
geographically distributed throughout India. This list, therefore, is
a first step towards giving some structure to the various
behind-the-scenes interactions we've been having, and to spread
awareness of crypto and how it impacts commerce and politics today.

The list is kindly hosted by Vipul Ved Prakash, who needs no
introduction to crypto observers here. Vipul also hosts
http://munitions.vipul.net - which is an archive of crypto software
that is mirrored across multiple locations. Vipul also was one of the
finalists in the 3rd Annual Obfuscated Perl Contest with his
dimunitive implementation of the Russian GOST algorithm.

To subscribe, use any ONE of the following URLs:

<http://lists.vipul.net/mailman/listinfo/cpunks-india>

<mailto:cpunks-india-request at lists.vipul.net?subject=subscribe>

In the next few days, as things evolve, we will put up some more
information at the URLs above.

Thanks for all your support, and see you on the list!

Udhay

- --
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
      God is silent. Now if we can only get Man to shut up.


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----- Backwarded
-- 

\|/ ____ \|/
@~/ oO \~@    <http://www.tbtf.com/roving_reporter/>
/_( \__/ )_\
\_U__/

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo at bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at bbs.thing.net

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'






From seawolf_84746 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  5 19:00:46 2001
From: seawolf_84746 at yahoo.com (seawolf)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:00:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Ferry Woman
Message-ID: <20010106030046.24685.qmail@web4104.mail.yahoo.com>




Some time back I posted a note to what I thought was
an individual interested in the Mountain Meadows
Massacre, as it was listed in a thread.

I did not realize that it was going to be posted to a
list, and I do apologize for annoying your members. 
Please accept my apogies.

Gerald Grimmett
Author, The Ferry Woman


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Fri Jan  5 16:04:15 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:04:15 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C41@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From mailbot at sunspot.net  Fri Jan  5 17:02:40 2001
From: mailbot at sunspot.net (mailbot at sunspot.net)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:02:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
Message-ID: <200101060102.UAA24904@msubwa10.usi.net>


Do not reply directly to this email; it is being sent out from an automated program on SunSpot and will bounce.


Wilfred forwarded this story to you from www.sunspot.net,
Maryland's Online Community.

 To view this story on the web go to
http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&storyid=1150520223288

It was sent with the following comments:
     "-- I'd love to have this place
     as a playpen :)
     
     -Wilfred
     Wilfred at Cryogen.com"
     

------------------------------------------------------

Headline: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
Subhead: <box>Surprises: Astronomers who took over an abandoned spy base find remarkable, expensive and often incomprehensible stuff at every turn.

By Laura Sullivan
SUN NATIONAL STAFF

TRANSYLVANIA COUNTY, 
N.C. - Along the long, twisting road through the Pisgah National 
Forest, the first sign that something is out of the ordinary 
is a line of giant transformers. Then, around the bend, a barbed-wire 
fence, guard shack and surveillance cameras protect what looks 
like nothing more than another hill of trees and dense shrubbery. 

It is anything but. 

This is the entrance to one of the National Security Agency's 
former spy stations, a place shrouded in secrets and denials, 
the source of local lore that seems right out of "X-Files." 

What is inside that giant geodesic dome that looks like a golf 
ball? Where do the tunnels snaking beneath the 202-acre site 
lead? Why are the rugs welded to the floors of the windowless 
buildings? 

Few people have been beyond these gates, deep inside the Appalachian 
Mountains, 50 miles southwest of Asheville. 

The NSA abandoned the site to the U.S. Forest Service five years 
ago, leaving behind a deserted minicity in the middle of nowhere. 
Now, some of the secrets are being revealed. 

Last year, with the base boarded up and close to demolition, 
the property was transferred to a group of astronomers in exchange 
for a piece of land in western North Carolina. Over the past 
year, they have begun piecing together the site's past. 

"There 
are things on this site you will never see anywhere else," 
said site manager Jim Powers. "I've never had someone 
come here that wasn't blown away." 

The astronomers, who formed the Pisgah Astronomical Research 
Institute, were attracted by two 85-foot satellites dishes on 
the site - some of the largest in the country - which could be 
repositioned to catch deep-space radio signals and allow them 
to study the life and death of stars. 

When the group arrived in January 1999, they expected a basic, 
albeit large, government facility, but as the weeks passed they 
realized little about the site was what it appeared. 

As they began to install their computers, they found hundreds 
of miles of top-of-the-line cabling running under every floor. 
They discovered that the self-contained water and sewer treatment 
plant could handle tens of thousands of gallons of water at a 
time and the generator could produce 235 kilowatts of energy 
- powerful enough to light up a small city. 

In a basement room of one of the larger buildings, they found 
the entrance to a 1,200-foot tunnel system that connects two 
of the site's main buildings. 

Every inch of floor in more than four buildings was covered 
with two-by-two-foot squares of bleak brown carpet. When the 
astronomers tried to replace it, they discovered it was welded 
with tiny metal fibers to the floor. The result, they eventually 
realized, is that the rugs prevent the buildings from conducting 
static electricity. 

Even the regular lighting looks different, covered by sleek 
metal grids that prevent the light bulbs from giving off static 
interference. The few windows are bulletproof. 

But what fascinated the astronomers was the still-operable security 
system that, among other things, sounds an alarm in the main 
building any time the front perimeter is crossed. The group can 
watch on monitors as cars approach from miles away. 

Inside the site, the agency had taken further measures. One 
area is in a small, sunken river ravine surrounded by barbed 
wire and an additional guard post. Steps, with reflective metal 
paneling to shield the identity of those walking beneath, lead 
down a small hill and wind their way to two small buildings with 
conference rooms inside - both of which once emanated "white 
noise" to prevent electronic eavesdropping. 

What Powers and several others in the group find remarkable, 
though, is not just the expansive network of buildings and security, 
but the extraordinary cost of all they items they have found 
- items the agency discarded. 

He said the extensive fiber optic cabling that runs for miles 
under the floors and through the tunnel system is the most expensive 
on the market. 

When a state regulator came out to issue a permit for a massive 
underground storage tank with a double lining, the astronomers 
said he told them he wished he had a camera. He wanted to take 
a picture to show his co-workers because he had never seen a 
system so sophisticated. 

And the agency didn't just install one water tank; it installed 
two. In a basement room, beneath a system that pressurizes wells, 
is another system just like it. 

"You see this kind of thing everywhere here," Powers 
said. "They never have just one of something." 

Even most of the heavy bolt locks - which every door has - are 
covered by black boxes locked with padlocks. 

Despite the site's stark appearance, there are some human 
- and humorous - vestiges. A bright happy face is painted on 
the smallest of the four satellite dishes on the site, something 
one former employee said was done so that they could "smile 
back at the Russians." 

Inside the tunnels, too, are chalk drawings of animals and warriors 
resembling those found in caves thousands of years ago. 

Aside from the rustling of deer and the wild turkeys that run 
rampant across the hundreds of vacant parking spaces, everything 
about the place is now eerily quiet. 

Paperwork in the guard shack is held in place by a stapler though 
no one has been inside the small building in years. Security 
cameras still work and alarms all still sound, though no one 
is listening. 

When the agency withdrew in 1995, some of the 300 workers, especially 
those who grew up locally and got hired on as groundskeepers 
and mechanics, returned to the nearby towns, though many say 
they are still forbidden to talk about their work. 

Most of the others - the security officers, military personnel 
and cryptologists - left the area for their next Department of 
Defense post. 

The site dates back to the early 1960s, when a scaled-down version 
was carved out to support the space program. It was operated 
at first by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, 
and scientists used the early satellite dishes to track the flights 
into outer space and kept the door open for school groups and 
visitors who wanted to learn more about space missions. 

But suddenly in 1981, the NSA took over from NASA. Local hikers 
and hunters who stumbled onto some of the agency's acreage 
would be suddenly surrounded by armed guards who appeared as 
if from nowhere to escort them out of the woods. Vans with darkened 
windows shuttled past the local coffee shops, fueling rumors. 

The agency's presence was hard on the local employees as 
well. 

Don Powell began working on the site in 1967 as a car mechanic 
and spent the next three decades learning the mechanics of every 
inch of the satellite dishes for the Defense Department. He also 
learned to avoid questions about his work and to lie to his neighbors. 

For 15 years people would approach him and the few other local 
workers, asking what was out there, what they did and, of course, 
what is that golf ball? 

"The kids would always ask, what's in [that] giant 
dome?" 

He would tell them it was "filled with chocolate pudding," 
he said. "I couldn't even tell my wife. I couldn't 
tell anyone." 

The 1995 closure appears to have caught the agency by surprise. 
It had recently cleared several more areas and laid the foundations 
for additional smaller satellite dishes that were never built. 
One newly built satellite dish, which one insider says was never 
turned on, was dismantled and shipped to England. 

The Forest Service tried unsuccessfully to engineer a land trade 
for three years, hampered by a site that posed many problems 
for the few interested parties - from the remote location to 
the expense of removing satellite dishes embedded 80 feet into 
the ground. 

The agency was about to return with a bulldozer when the astronomers 
group, headed by benefactor J. Donald Cline, a scientist and 
former computer executive, offered to buy and trade 375 acres 
along the French Broad River in North Carolina for the spy station. 

What made the site, shielded from interference in a natural 
bowl-shaped terrain, so perfect for the NSA made the site perfect 
for the astronomers as well. They plan to use the satellite dishes 
to read the characteristics of elements given off by dying stars. 

"This area is free of light pollution," Powers said, 
as he stood in the middle of a vast, empty parking lot. "It's 
also clean in terms of electromagnetic interference like cell 
phone towers or things that create electromagnetic noise. 

"And 
we can be sure there won't be any in the future because the 
Forest Service owns everything around here. ... It's easy 
to see why they liked this place." 

Recently, in one of a dozen large empty rooms in one of four 
mostly empty office buildings where the group decided to set 
up shop, four scientists stood around a portable panel of monitors 
and computers, watching the results of a test appear on a screen. 

"It's stardust," said the site's technical 
director, astronomer Charles Osborne. "This stuff is just 
floating around out there. It's the building blocks of life." 

In order to use the satellite dishes, they had to spend months 
trying to slow them down. Both of the 85-foot dishes swing on 
two axes, an extravagance the astronomers suspect allowed the 
agency to swing the face around swiftly to catch up with satellites 
orbiting Earth. The astronomers need the dishes to move no faster 
than the speed of Earth itself. 

But there is much on the site that the astronomers don't 
know what to do with, such as the paper-shredding building up 
on one hill, the large helicopter pad on top of another, and 
down in a valley of well-manicured grass, that giant golf ball, 
similar to those seen at NSA headquarters at Fort Meade. 

Close up from the outside, the ball is a circle of triangles, 
no two identical, that feel like Gore-Tex to the touch. When 
one triangle at the bottom is pushed, several triangles around 
it gyrate, letting off a low grumbling sound of bending metal 
echoing throughout the ball. 

Inside, past a small door less than 4 feet tall, the ball glows 
white, lighted by the sunlight outside reflecting and bouncing 
inside from one triangle to another. 

In its center is a 40-foot satellite dish, cleaner and smoother 
than any of the others. It looks new, though it has been there 
for years. There are unusual numbered patterns on the dish's 
white panels, laid out like a cheat sheet to a jigsaw puzzle. 
The astronomers believe that the triangles vary in size as a 
clever way to minimize the effect of interference that comes 
from patterns. 

Enclosing the dish under such a surface, they speculate, would 
protect it from the weather, and prevent anyone else from seeing 
it or reading the direction it is pointed. 

For the astronomers, though, this curious dish is somewhat irrelevant. 
They need dishes with large faces, like the two bigger ones, 
to read the radio signals of stars millions of light-years from 
Earth. 

>From far above on the perfectly level, perfectly painted helicopter 
pad with a view of miles of mountains and green trees, Powers 
laughed at the differences between the previous owners and the 
astronomers, a group short on staff and scraping for funding. 
He studied the golf ball. 

"You'll go a long way before you find anything like 
that around anywhere else," he said. " ... But nothing 
about this place is what it seems." 






------------------------------------------------------


To view this story on the web go to
http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&storyid=1150520223288





From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Fri Jan  5 17:03:02 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 20:03:02 -0500
Subject: NSA LookingGlass Facility (media)
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010105200302.00a7ae68@mail.internet-95.com>


jan 05 2001

News article referencing NSA lookingglass facility, etc... Of both general,
technical, "esch--" and location oriented interest.

http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&stor
yid=1150520223288

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com




From he-who-watches at gmx.de  Fri Jan  5 11:31:08 2001
From: he-who-watches at gmx.de (Olav Stetter)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:31:08 +0100
Subject: When they came for the Jews...
In-Reply-To: <3A560CC8.51853757@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <114E43AA5F76D411B62E00508B95A9370265E242@kscgrndexc1> <3A560CC8.51853757@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <01010520375601.00716@elevator>


Am Fre, 05 Jan 2001 schrieben Sie:
> We don't have a website.  But the quote is supposed to be Martin
> Niemvller
> 
> "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up
> because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the
> Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for
> the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
> wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
> speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me - and by
> that time there was nobody left to speak up." 
> 
> No doubt Tom Vogt has the original auf Deutsch.
---snipped---



I didn't follow the mailings on this topic, but here is the original version (in
case Phil ist interested):

"Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
Ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten, habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr,
der protestieren konnte."



Does anyone know when he said that?


Best regards,
Olav Stetter


P.S.: His name is Martin Niemoeller, not Niemvller.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan  5 17:50:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:50:40 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A560BA8.6F9AD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b67c26d34f41@[207.111.241.40]>


At 1:00 PM -0500 1/5/01, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>Harmon Seaver wrote:
>>        In different areas of the US we have different tems for the 
>>thing get water
>  > out of at the sink. In the south it's often called spigot, and in the north
>  > faucet. Also tap. What do you Brits call that?
>
>Tap. We find the word "faucet" funny, it sounds as if it should be
>slightly obscene, a good example of the US habit of never using a short
>word when a long one will do. But when I found myself amongst Americans
>I was slightly disappointed to find that they almost all say "tap" these
>days. Just as they say "car" instead of "automobile". You are obviously
>all watching too much British TV, or listening to too many British rock
>bands. You should defend your language against this tide of old-world
>vulgarity.

I'm now 49, and "car" has been much more common in these United 
States than "automobile"  has been, in my lifetime.

Further, I often hear Britishisms which are far longer and more 
labored than the American equivalents. For example:

"articulated lorry" vs. "semi"

"redundant" vs. "laid-off"

"Mackintosh" vs. "raincoat"

"Pantechnicon" = "moving van"

(I only learned this last one on a site devoted to Britishisms vs. 
Americanisms.)

Fact is, both dialects of English have longer versions of the same 
basic word than other dialects have.

Which is preferable is a matter of taste and familiarity.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From bear at sonic.net  Fri Jan  5 20:53:55 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:53:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <200101060102.UAA24904@msubwa10.usi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052046170.13788-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




 On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 mailbot at sunspot.net wrote:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Headline: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
> Subhead: <box>Surprises: Astronomers who took over an 
> abandoned spy base find remarkable, expensive and often 
> incomprehensible stuff at every turn.


Very cool...  

I think it would be a profoundly and disturbingly interesting 
problem to try and do a security verification on the place, 
especially since miles and miles of cabling and fiber optic 
are being "inherited" -- do you know everything that stuff is 
hooked up to?  Have you checked every inch of it to make sure 
it's not hooked up to something else too?  Do you even know 
where all of it GOES?

Heh.  These astronomers may never know whether the NSA is reading 
all their astronomy long before they announce it.  Fortunately, 
there's not *too* much motive to keep astronomy secret. 

				Bear




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jan  5 18:21:15 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:21:15 -0500
Subject: Electric Kettles
In-Reply-To: <3A54C465.B2C3B809@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010105182028.00b17100@idiom.com>


At 01:40 PM 1/4/01 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
>Steve Mynott wrote:
>> Ken Brown <k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>> On a tangent a friend claimed Americans didn't have electric kettles
>> for boiling water.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
>>
>I have never seen an electric kettle for boiling water for tea. 

That's because Real Americans don't drink tea - 
we have electric coffeemakers.  The Mr. Coffee machine got
most people to switch over from percolators to drip-filter coffee, 
though some people still drink (yecch!) instant coffee.
Other than tea and instant soups or similar things, 
most foods that require boiling water involve cooking them in pots,
which you do on the stovetop.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Fri Jan  5 20:03:28 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:03:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <200101060102.UAA24904@msubwa10.usi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052207580.7921-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>


On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 mailbot at sunspot.net wrote:

> Wilfred forwarded this story to you from www.sunspot.net,
> Maryland's Online Community.
> 
>  To view this story on the web go to
> http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&storyid=1150520223288
> 
> It was sent with the following comments:
>      "-- I'd love to have this place
>      as a playpen :)
>      
>      -Wilfred
>      Wilfred at Cryogen.com"
>      
> 


No shit. Glad it was rescued from the bulldozers and put to good use
again. 

This has to be the old satellite uplink site and tracking center in
Rosman. It was the major, if not the only, such site on the East Coast for
some time, if I recall. There were intelligence functions even
then, too. We were told the same thing about the dome; among other
things, it was to prevent prying eyes from discerning what the antenna was 
looking at. 

I'm at a loss, though, to figure the need for a level of secrecy
that would preclude acknowledgement that there was an antenna inside, when
everybody knew it anyway. Especially any spies. What, everybody just
forgot all of a sudden? I'm sure the NSA was a lot more restrictive
than NASA, but this is ridiculous. This sounds to me like journalistic
hyperbole, or maybe just a gool 'ol boy having fun at the expense of a 
reporter.     

I took one of those school tours in '69 or '70. I remember them showing
us live network video feeds from Europe and such. No doubt the NSA added
some stuff, but contrary to the breathless implications in the article, at
least from what I remember, almost all that stuff was there back then. The 
tunnels, guardhouses, dishes, the dome, the redundant diesel generator sets, 
fuel bunkers, etc. I can't remember if the carpet was welded down back then,
but that was the level of detail this place was built too.  

It was designed from the start to be self-sufficient and remain
operational in pretty much any emergency short of a direct nuclear
strike. At the time, it was a vulnerable linchpin in the global telecom 
infrastructure, and given the times, no expense was spared or contingency 
unplanned for. 

I highly recommend anyone go see it if they get the chance. I also welcome any 
corrections or additions to 30-year old schoolboy memories. 

jbdigriz 




From SnSTrkn1 at aol.com  Fri Jan  5 20:21:01 2001
From: SnSTrkn1 at aol.com (SnSTrkn1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:21:01 EST
Subject: would like to join
Message-ID: <db.e8234d9.2787f72d@aol.com>

please email me the information needed to join the club. 
Thanks 
-------------- next part --------------
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From barryjohnson at themail.com  Sat Jan  6 00:08:31 2001
From: barryjohnson at themail.com (Barry Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:08:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 300,000 FRESH LIST GUARANTEED !!!
Message-ID: <419.436897.12747662barryjohnson@themail.com>


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From: rolf.hansen at usa.net (Rolf Hansen, SS Knights of the KKK)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:12:34
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Message-ID: <200101060912.f069CEA06934@ak47.algebra.com>


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From p.txt at toad.com  Sat Jan  6 01:48:17 2001
From: p.txt at toad.com (p.txt at toad.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 01:48:17
Subject: Computer Suplus upto 80% off -- terminals networking printers workstations etc
Message-ID: <200101060647.WAA17659@toad.com>


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hp c1553 dd3 4mm autoloader $299 96 gig 
emerald vas026 9000
exabyte ex4200c
exabyte exb8500 8mm $129, exabyte exb8205 8mm $149
exabyte exb8205xle 8mm $169
exabyte exb8505xls 8mm 14 gig $399 
exabyte exb10-chs 8mm 10 tape autochanger , exabyte exb10-chse 
hp 1300s       $99
hp model 35470 $99 2 gig 4 mm
hp model c1504 $299
legacy 500s $50, legacy 525s $50, legacy 2000s $99 2 gig 
legacy 2200d 4mm 2 gig $59, legacy 4000d 4mm 4 gig $99,
legacy 8000d 4mm 8 gig $199
sony sdt 500
seagate ctl 96gs 96 gig 4 tape autochanger
trimm da5
tecmar datavault 4000 
wangdat 3200, wangtek 6130 hs $99
external enclosure $8
qualstar 6250 9 track $480
dec tu81 $400
6250 tapes New $5 Used $1
8mm 5 gig tapes used $3
3480 tapes new $3 used $1 
6525 tapes new $3 used $1
tk50 tapes new $3 

call 514-744-9665          we accept amex call 514-744-9665   
514-744-9665
dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
dec vax vax
dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
dec vax vax

           Digital Equipment - All prices in U.S. $

New arrivals: vax 4105a  
              rz27 disk
              128 meg
              cd rom
	      vaxstation 4000 60   (35 units)
                  16 meg 
                  rz23
                  rz26
                  vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
	      vaxstation 4000 90
                  16 meg 
                  rz23
                  rz26
                  vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
	      vax 3100 90
	      vax 3100 80
              tf86 tape drives  (dlt)
              tf85 tape drives (dlt)
	      280 gig dlt loader 
              dsrvg-ma   decserver 90l+ 
              dehub-ax
              1 detmm-m  decrepeater 900 tm
	      1 dmhub-mb
              decnis 600
	      dex2r-z routeabout access ew
	      dex2r-m routeabout access ew
	      dez8r-p routeabout central ew
Networking:   dsrvh-n decserver 90m
	      h7082-88
              decserver 700 $475   8 port dsrvw-aa
              decserver 550 dsrvs-c2b03 with multiple cxy08 card
              pmad-a   p/n 54-19874-01 
              pmaz    p/n 54-19876-01 
              rf-delni -aa (fibre optic output)   
              decrepeater 90T   detmr-m   $150 ea    
              decrepeater 90T+  detmr-n   $150 ea    
              decserver 90l+   dsrvg-ma   $225
              decbridge 90+    dewgb-m   
              dehub 90 ax               1
              dehua-nb
              DESPR-AA,PC100-B,DECROUTER 250,LANBRIDGE 
150,LANBRIDGE 100
              DEC200 NICS, pm37b-by, delni-ba, ab74100b7c, 
dsrva-aa,dempr-aa
              h7317,pm20b-ag, dsrvb-aa,lanbridge debet-ac
              70-19062-01, 70-31353-01, devp03, dvrvb-b, demsa-aa
              decserver 300
              vxt2000
              ba350 scsi enclosure
              dsrvb-a
              lxy12
              decserver 100,decserver 200dl, decserver 200md,
              decserver 300 dsrvf-ba
              dsrvf-b,rf-vx20a-m9, di-31cp1-a cpu ka41,lanbridge 
150
              P/N DEC 7876-AA  dehub ax power supply   
              DSRVB-B,DSRVB-A, DEC REPEATER 350 ,P/N DERFVS240A 
20  
              DESPR-AA THINWIRE REPEATER
              DECMUX 300 P/N DM308-a,MUX SERVER 310 P/N DSRZC-B  
                       
              MUXSERVER 300 P/N DSR2C-A            
     

TERMINALS: VT220,VT320,VT330,vt330+,vt340,vt340+,vt420 $99, 
vt510, vt520     
     VRM17-AA VRT19-DA VRT19-HA VR241-A VR299 VR290-DA have 200 
spare lk450

PRINTERS: LA50 
$50,LA70,la75$70,la75s-a2$110,la100$70,la210$99,la324 $300,
          la424 $550,lno3$50,lno3+$75,DECWRITER III $170, RFLAIDR 
$200,
          lp27 $300, lp37,LQP45,lgo1,lg02,lg31

DRIVES      : 
rd53,rd54,tz30,tk50,tk70,tu81,tu81+,tz85,tz86,ra60,ra90
              ese20-ba   - 120mb ram memory drives  4  
              ra650-xa   - 5 1.2 gig sdi drives 1 250 meg ra70
              ra600  2 1.2 gig ra70
              h7142 power supplies 6  
              micro technolory inc. stingray  has 4 rackmount
                 stingray hard drive controllers 1 2.1 gig 
seagate barracuda
                 10 hard drive enclosures
              hsc50  2    sdi disk drive controllers

SYSTEMS:
        vaxstation 4000 60
                vx46k-ad
                cpu ka46
                rz 25e
                video card 5020364-01 d3  5420366
                ram 2 pieces of 5419103  5019079-01

        vaxstation 4000 60
                vx46k-ad
                cpu ka46
                tzk10-aa tape drive 
                2 hard drives  rz 25e
                video card 5020364-01 d3  5420365
                ram 2 pieces of 5419145  5019144-01


        microvax 3100 80
                tz30
                board 54-20652-01
                rz26e hard drive

        microvax 3100 40
                tz30
                54-20654-01 h02
                rz 26e hard drive 
                on onboard ram no modules

        microvax 3100 30
                tz30
                board 54-20654-01
                on onboard ram no modules

        microvax 3100
                dj31esa-a-a01
                tz30
                54-18858-01
                50-18905-01
                54-18905-01
                501982901
                rz24-e

        microvax 4000 600
                tk70
                128 meg ram  ( 2 units l4002aa  ms690-ca)
                kfqsa
                kzqsa
                no hard drive
                
        microvax 4000
                6600r-b2
                m9047
                h7868-a
                desqa-sk
                ms650-bf
                tk70 sf
                tk70
                

        dec 3000 400
                pe401-cb
                rz26
                cpu kn15-ba
                cd rom
                vid 50-21142-01
                ram 8 pieces of 5421139cl 

              vaxstation 8 meg ram modules mso2  p/n 54-16812-01 
 120  
              vax 4000-100a
              vt1300 50
              decsystem 5500
                 2200h-b9 series ba400
                 ms220-ba
                 m7639
                 kn220 m7637
                 kn220 m7638
                 2 rf72, tlz04 (dat) ,
              vax 4000 300,vax 4000 200,microvax 3800,microvax 
3400
              microvax 3100
     VAXSTATION 4000/VLC 24 MEG 20 INCH TRINITRON RZ23L HARD 
DRIVE $    
     VAXSTATION 3100 M38 2 SCSI HARD DRIVES 20 INCH 
TRINITRON......$    
     VAXSTATION 2000
     decstation 2100 pm10a-ba
     DS5000-200 ,ds500--125,ds5000-240,MICROVAX II     

MISC
----
     TK50 MEDIA(new)$5 used $3                          
     DEC 16 BIT ETHERNET $5                     
     DEC 8 BIT PDA508 $3                         
     DEC DESTA                 

dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
dec vax vax


We will beat any ad price on  ibm equipment   prices u.s $

SYSTEMS:
        powerstation 220  type 7011     
        2.5 gig seagate barracuda
        32 meg
        powerstation 220  type 7011       50 units in stock
        500 meg
        32 meg

        powerstation 340 type 7012
        2 scsi drives p/n 55f9915
        scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
        token ring 74f8653
        16 pieces of 4 meg 72 pin (on 2 cards 8 pieces each)
        color card fru 71f1223
               processor card fru 00g3149 cpu 37

        powerstation 370 type 7012
        2 scsi drives p/n 75g3628
        scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
        token ring 74f8653
        64 meg  
        processor card fru 51g9441

        powerstation 410 
        2 gig scsi drive
        scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
        token ring 74f8653
        64 meg 
        color video fru 88g2749 609
        token ring fru 7280422

        powerstation 320
        XSTATION 150 15 UNITS
        XSTATION 120 100 UNITS
3com 3c319 rj45 and db9 isa 16  130 units
ibm auto 16/4 fru 9873456 rj45       approximately 200 units   
isa 16
olicom 00055797-12671-73c-opin  fcc id an055h6800   rj45 and db9 
 isa 16
dca 014253 rev a 500 units rj45 and db9 mca and isa  
smc 8115t c d2 4996  400 units rj45 and db9 isa 16
madge smart at ringnode 152-034-04   152-028-14  100 units 
intel rj45 and db9 isa 16 200 units
card swiper 4717 3
ibm 16/4 short card 
ibm 5250 8 bit 
hp jetdirect j2555-60003  
hp jetdirect j2373-60001  db9  
hp jetdirect ex j2383  db9 rj45 external unit with power supply 
proteon 1392+  16 bit isa tokenring  
ibm powerstation 320h 32 meg 16 ports for terminals
ibm sierra xterminal model 120 8 megs ram p/n 950-000024-000
terminal ibm 3151, 3192,3196,3197,3471,3472
terminal ibm 3472 color (same tube /flyback) as 3477
terminal ibm 3477, 5085-1, 5272,3178c,
terminal ibm p/n 83x7944  color
controller ibm 
3174-1r,3174-1l,3174-11r,3174-51r,3174-61r,3174-91r
mau ibm 3299 2 8 port coax
ibm 5242,4224  $200,4230,4234,4324,3812 2,3287, 5210 go2
ibm 8228 10 port token ring p/n 6091014  50  
ibm irma2
ibm auto 16/4, ibm lanstreamer pci tokenring
lexmark 4109, 4029, 4039
proteon 
7202,33g4389,6091014,4459,4869-009,4869,3174-g2454,3274-41d
5362,3268 2,4869-002,4869,3299-2,7010,3044-d02,9404 as400
23-p2899,3820,2380,2381,33g4389
madge token ring cards
mca network cards  16/4 
mca adaptek scsi cards  also future domain $20
assorted other microchannel cards 
token ring cables 
proteon cnx 500 and cnx 600 routers dual ethernet token ring 
model

inkjet
------
kodak diconix inkjet portable - runs on batteries or adapter$19
hp thinkjet.................................................$19
hp deskjet..................................................$29
hp paintjetcolor continous feed ............................$39
hp paintjet xl  - takes wide paper..........................$79
kodak 300w - takes wide paper-- 
epson sq2500 takes wide paper SUPER HIGH SPEED HUGE CARTRIDGE

dot matrix
----------
epson lq570  lq 570, fxl070 fx 1070 
epson lq2500 color - computerized 7 layer form 
(reg$1099)......$129
toshiba p341,p351...................................$call
mannesmann tally mt330, mt390 ,mt86, mt660, mt661, t6045 
nec p9 color dot matrix commercial................
printronics mvp, p300, p600, 9012 (1200 lines per minute - WOW)
genicom 1010, 1020 , 3210 3820 3840
genicom line printers 4410xt, genicom 4410, genicom4490..$call
okidata 82,ml182,ml320,ml321,ml380,ml395,ml393+,ml591,ml2410
hp ruggedwriter high speed commercial dot matrix 
         accepts input from tray or tractor (reg $1500)...$199
fujitsu dl2400, 5600 and many genicom, datasouth,mannes tally, 
tektronix phaser iipx, phaser cp, pahser 220, phaser iii, 4694
qms colorscript 100 model 10    serial parallel scsi
qms colorscript 230 11x17, magicolorcx color toner csl 1000-1
qms ps 2210 black and white 11x17 serial parralel scsi
50 tektronix toners reordr no. 016-0898-00
qmd colorscript 100 color toners 4 color  $20 u.s
part number 1730451-013                      $20 u.s.2

we will beat any ad price   mac note the prices in u.s. $
                            ---
        mac laserwriter iint $59
        mac laserwriter      $29
        nec postscript laser , 4 meg ram $49
        hp paintjet 300  wide carriage color postscr inkjet $59
        mac mono monitor $   9 color 13 inch $19
        20 inch trinitron monitor for mac $199
        20 mono monitor for mac radius tpd/19 $49
        radius pivot $55
        scsi syquest 88 meg $25, scsi cd $10, scsi enclosure $8,
        scsi ribbon cables $1, external cabels $5, terminator $5
        old mac machines iicx etc $40  mac se $15

3com 3c509, 3c905
3480 TAPES NEW TENEX BRAND $3
QUALSTAR  6250 TAPE DRIVE (SCSI) $350
chipcom 5006c - 5000m-ctl
                5104m-f1b
lan/wan optimizer series 5000 model 5010l p/n acx067g110001l-r
gandalf premier lanline 5220 p/n 7707z1
gandalf mux 2000 16 port  10  
gandalf mmux 2000 8 port 10  
gandalf swith mux   5  
proteon cnx 500 router  3  , cnx 600 router  1 unit
newbridge 1032 mainstreet p/n 90-0533-01 channel banks 32 port
newbridge 1082 8 port
gandalf starmaster
lots of gandalf ldm and lds series modems  lds120a, 
lds120e,ldm309a, ldm409a 
ibm 3174-11r, 3174-51r ibm 3174-61 ribm 3174-91r
intel satisfaction modems, satisfaction 200, 400, 400e , 
pcfm6401v, pccb6201a 
bicc datanetworks thin ethernet repeater model # 1121-0 20  
comterm c6274-201
dg 1348 as tape drive with wheels
dg mv4000 dc
digiboard 8 port isa bus  $150
digiboard digichannel c/com-16
digital rflaidr looks like genicom c1
disk mini digital  rl02 
docking station compaq 2684
docking station nec op-560-4701
docking station texas instruments 2581447-0041  c2
docking station toshiba deskstation ii 10 u
dot matrix color nec p9xl
dot matrix oki 321 d2
dot matrixa centronics 359 p351 p353
dot matrixa dg 6494 
dot matrixa dg 6594 c1
dotmatrixa dataproducts tcg 202   10u a2
dotmatrixa datasouth ds220, ds180
dotmatrixa dg 6594  c1
laser postscript, qms ps820 turbo , ps825 turbo 
modem gandalf lds 100, lds120a,lds120e, lds300, lds 309a, lds289
modem gandalf lds 125, mlds, ld140,pacx2000, lds300, lds 389
modem motorola cdm264 modem
lattisnet 2510, 102, 3000
telex 87
wang 75lis12en
harris l191-s1
dest pcsan200
texas instrument silent 700
allied telesis centrecom 3008
sytek 20/100
npi 521
general datacom de-1
codex 2600
puredata pdc520a, pdc608a, pdc620a
comterm c6274-201
telex 076 controller
questronics cpa17
ast&t 6386 wgs
intergraph 340
datability vcp1000
css 486te-33
consultronics fdm-3
microtel bb5007-ca8575
control data corporation cyber 910
memorex telex 1374-51r
aries iii image analysis system dipix
telebit t2500
baytech printer controller
develcon 7330
byteway 2000
cimterm c6274-201
seikosha sbp-10ai
allied telesis 5000, 3025, 3024, 3008, 3008sl
data general mv 12000
memorex telex 2062
analogic 68
codex 6006
telenet tp3/11-3025
datawatch dwx86
canstar ncu 200-00-020
datasouth performax a600
dataproducts bp 2000, bp 1500, dp 1000
gandalf access server pcm2022
                      npm2021 
                      lds2123e  <----4
                      asm2081
                      gcm2091   <----3
                      sgm2094
motorola uds model 201b rm16m m
adic 530/h
allied telesis centre com 470
local data interlynx 3287
fifth generation systems lc-01
penril 2332-01
ostrocom e299 squeezplexor
gandalf minimau
synoptics lattisnet 102 powersupply
                    408 fault status
ncr 3000
canstar fibre optic hub
otc 2160
cisco igs-r multiprotocal router
qms csc-100
castelle lanpress  95054
honeywell hds2
3com 3c1351
3com linkbuilder ecs10 type 1200-1 with 12 port utp cards and 
management card
motorola 6005
ods 296
telenet tp3/11-3025
delta data 8700t
memorex telex 2062
at&t 1600
ncr 3400
alpha industries um3000
system industries csr176700, csr176300, csr176200
fibrecom 9600r
chipcom 9314s-st fibre optic hub
sytek 2550
comterm dc8101-101
local data ld 3278
telebit t2sa
gandalf 3790z1
net 3com multiconnect repeater 10u   p/n 3c588
net allied telisys centercom 810 (switch?) 
net david systems 6102-01 40 port  rck
net gandalf lds120, lds140, lds260, lds309, ldm309, ldm409, 9106, 
2200226
net gandalf mux 2000 mmux2000
net gandalf 6808a rev d1
net gandalf 500540101 rev 1b
datability 500540101 rev 1b
net gandalf p/n 427421 mux?
net gandalf pacx 2000
net gandalf sm9600-d
net gandalf sm9600-oyr
net gandalf starmaster, access server xl
net gandalf swithmux 2000
net memotec mpac mp8002  60 port x25 switch multiprotocol
net memotec mpac sp8300
net memotek sp8000 18 port
net micom m2002
net newbridge mainstreet 1082 in box
net paradyne p9600
network memotek sp800  18 port
plotter calcomp plotmaster
plotter hp 7550a
protec bytelink plus  24 port peripheral sharing device 1 meg 
             p/n 24p/1m  50  
puredata 12 port hub + 12 network cards $195  
qms 4 color toner rolls 2 per box $80 per box p/n 1730451-013
ricoh 150 opc  20   $30
sony gdm-1962b $190 20 inch 1024x768
sony gdm-20d10 (sun) $250
tectronics hc02 video copy processor (mitsubishi p71u)
terminal memorex telex 1471 , 1472, 2391g 
terminal tecktronics 4205 14'
terminal volker craig 6220   
terminal wyse 30,50,60 75, 85,99gt,160, 185,285,325,350   
terminal linc mc3, mc5
terminal televideo 905, 955, 965
terminal qume ,qvt31, qvt51, qvt-101, qvt101+
toner color tektronic 016-0898-0050 40u
adacom cp150+
shiva lanrover/8t
newbridge p/n 1032-8706-0259 32 port channel bank 2u
timeplex microplex x25 pad 24 port 
newbridge 1032 mainstreet    p/n 90-0533-31a
citoh ci4000, ci15000, c310
m3358a ,ibm 2381, 2391, 5202, 2178, 3192, 5202, 
facit b3100, 4509, 1513
epson lq570, lq1170, fx1170, fax 1050, lq2550, lq2500, sq2500, 
sq2550, etc
panasonic kxp1592, kxp1624,, raven pr248, pr9101
alps 324 printer for dec systems 50  
rf delni with fibre optic interface 50  
fibre optic tranciever (digital brand) 43  
gandalf 500540101
datability 500540101
gandalf 6808a  revd
intel netport 306515-004   token ring db9, 306514-003   ethernet 
rj45 ,306482-004   ethernet aui
xircom pocket ethernet adapter II pe3-10bt
seiko smart label printer plus slp1000p  slp1100
general datacom diz ai
general datacom dei 
human design systems hds2000
memotec isu5600 v.35 dte
synoptics lattisnet model 2500
telebit netblazer st
emerald rap150-9000 tape drive
hp28681a 10:10 bridge lp
hemulex jetdirect netjet ethernet  pwb-er2010276-01
hp jetdirect j2550,j2552,j2555,j2382
pacifac data jetcard/mio 8 serial 1 parallel
banyan jetdirect 6034100 20322e rj45 coax
asp serverjet asp sj400 4 rj45 or 8 rj45
datability vcp200
datability vcp1000
valtek pst250f 250 meg external tape parralel/serial
mita ldc550
3com h46891 ethernet card 16 bit
3com etherlink ii 16tp
3com elii/16 tp, el2tp 8 bit, etherlink 3c509c parralel tasking 
adaptek mp401 autoswitch
hpiiisi i/o card 28644-60002
pacifac postscript  for laserjet ii,iii pd-016907   
ibm mca microchannel video xga-2 fru 8tf4774aha1640 aha-1640 
adaptek isa 16 bit aha1542
puredate arcnet pdc508a
ascend mb4bri option nx56isdn 4 x 128k ----8x64k
memotek da3224
intel etherexpress 16tp 16 bit ethernet card
pioneer drm-604x 6 cd changer scsi 
telenet to8010-16
seikosha sbp-10a1 
xyplex maxserver 6020
qume qvt 31,101,101+, 102, 203+
datawatch vm14
volker craig vc8325, vc6220
AT&T 705 MT
mai basic four 4313
memotec mc504
canon
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Jan  5 17:40:03 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  6 Jan 2001 02:40:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Timelyness
Message-ID: <4db87ee787a0859efc5e1f4f993ac4e4@dizum.com>

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From han_don8 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  5 18:53:31 2001
From: han_don8 at hotmail.com (han don)
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 02:53:31 -0000
Subject: Solution to riddle 666 clear not cryptic Jah guidance
Message-ID: <F202LZWUXHOQGZaoojY000106cd@hotmail.com>


This is the riddle to the mystery of the beast numbered 666.

In the Book of Kings (and 2nd ChronicleV9:13) Solomon counted out his gold 
and it measured 666 cubits.

The calf was the creature/beast made out of gold (and precious stones) at 
the foot of the mountain when Moses descended. The calf being symbolic of 
our unhealthy craving for unecessary commodities such as gold, gems, milk 
and blood.

The gold standard is used in the world economy ( no-one shall be able to buy 
or sell without the mark of the beast.)

The great whore is symbolic of individuals and institutions which perpetuate 
the myth/illusion that you somehow need gold or diamonds to sanctify a 
marriage, you don't. The vow is sacred and sanctified by our honour and 
faith in God. Bringing token payments of gold and gems into the act sustains 
the corrupt and exploitative jem and gold trade. Furthermore it is in 
essence the same principle as the prostitution act of material for 
affection.

The manifestation of all these false values display their destructive and 
corrupt nature. Rainforests and their irreplacable, incomparable beauty, 
housing Gods finest creations are being massacred at a frightening rate the 
main reason being to feed cattle and to prospect and exploit natural 
resources.

The gold and diamond industry creates a perverse and inhuman imbalance of 
wealth (Sierra Leone's bloody civil war was fought for control of the 
diamond trade.)
The world economy with its unfair trade policies and debt traps (using the 
gold standard) has created a world where 40,000 people AT LEAST die daily 
unnecessarily due to hunger.

This theory holds up in the Chinese Bible or 'I Ching' also where the 
number666 refers to the mother. As we know the cow acts as a mother to 
humans by suckling human children (a perversion of Gods laws of nature.) 
Here also the quality of the 666 reference is receptive again gold is 
receptive and the hexogram is bottomless symbolising the bottomless pit.

This is THE SOLUTION to the riddle. Whether you choose to believe or not is 
up to you but this is IT. If you have faith in God and the Bible the command 
therein is to withdraw and refuse to trade in such commodities. THis is not 
just religeous fervor it is the important realisation which is crucial to 
the survival of our species and the living planet itself which as it stands 
is on the brink of annhilation.
I dislike to use strong language but you are warned as of NOW!

This was confirmed to me when the 8 angels of the revelations appeared to me 
(and no I wasn't on drugs). Pass this info on and spread the solution.Don't 
be fooled into disbelieving because of the simplistic nature of this 
solution as it's simplicity is its greatest strenght.
May God guide and protect !
I urge you do not hesitate to pass this info on.
Amen.

(The fruit of the knowledge of good n evil in line with the fairly universal 
law  -actions which provide pleasure and nourishment to others are in 
essence healthy and nourishment to the self- excludes all true tree fruits, 
therefore the only fruit borne by a tree which is destructive must be the 
friuthead of parasitic fungi. This therefore is the fruit of knowledge and a 
warning to the use of fungi. From hallucinogens to yeast in bread (again all 
referred to in REV: maddening wine of impure passion -this also referring to 
the obvious 'bitter sex'). Note Christ never ate bread with yeast in fact 
all he ate was fruit and grains (unleavened). Not fish as is widely 
misconcieved in fact when he was being followed by the crowds he preached 
and then with the 'miraculous' catch gave people the option stay and eat of 
the flesh or come and follow him. AS for the feeding of the 5,000 with the 
few loaves and fishes he fed them with his words and satisfied them and the 
uneaten bread and fish was returned to the basket this then fed the fish 
keeping them at the shore while the boats fished hence no catch and some 
more snacks of food into the water as the boat resailed brought them out 
again into deep water- hence the miraculous catch.)
He holy grail has also been revealed to me but is too precious to reveal 
yet.
more info at-  http://realjesus.homestead.com
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com  Sat Jan  6 00:26:59 2001
From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:26:59 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
References: <200101052349.SAA23861@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <012901c077ba$dc4c8a80$eec11d97@seminole>


I have sent a copy of this message to a cyber crime officer in Tallahassee
FL.


----- Original Message -----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Hahaha" <hahaha at sexyfun.net>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:49 AM
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!


>
> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated
and
> polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a
> *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the
Seven
> Dwarfs enter...
>
>





From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan  6 00:37:31 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:37:31 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
In-Reply-To: <012901c077ba$dc4c8a80$eec11d97@seminole>
References: <200101052349.SAA23861@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105223559.00bd9a00@flex.com>


Why?  sexyfun.net traces to a .au domain, and Graeme Platt is already tired
of hearing from me.

At 03:26 AM 1/6/01 -0500, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote:
 >I have sent a copy of this message to a cyber crime officer in Tallahassee
 >FL.
 >
 >
 >----- Original Message -----
 >X-Loop: openpgp.net
 >From: "Hahaha" <hahaha at sexyfun.net>
 >To: "Multiple recipients of list" <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
 >Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:49 AM
 >Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
 >
 >
 >>
 >> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated
 >and
 >> polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a
 >> *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the
 >Seven
 >> Dwarfs enter...
 >>
 >>





From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Jan  5 18:40:09 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  6 Jan 2001 03:40:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Powdered Sugar
Message-ID: <d7879a56b9d8240b614c14581de7bcf3@dizum.com>

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From barryjohnson at themail.com  Sat Jan  6 06:07:07 2001
From: barryjohnson at themail.com (Barry Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 06:07:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: YOU WON'T GIVE UP !!!
Message-ID: <419.436897.37642269barryjohnson@themail.com>


Hello Friend,
       
In order to succeed in an on-line business, you need to know these 5 things:            

#1. In order to make SALES, you need TRAFFIC to your site.
#2. Success with SEARCH ENGINES and F.F.A. LINKS is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. 
#3. YOU are 1 of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who received this ad.
#4. It cost me NOTHING to reach you with this ad.
#5. This ad earns me a FULL SECOND INCOME.

                                         
                    ******* IT IS A FACT THAT E-MAIL MARKETING WORKS !!! ****** 

I have been working online now for about 3 years. I have tried everything from 
F.F.A. links to classified posts and banner exchange programs...all unsuccessfully.
Then it hit me. I needed people to FOCUS on my ad ALONE and without distraction. 
So I began to compile thousands of targeted e-mail addresses and I used a free 
bulk e-mail program to send my ad out. 
                                                                
                                                             $$$$ JACKPOT $$$$$
                              
                  IN ONE DAY I ACQUIRED OVER 3,000 HITS TO MY WEB SITE !!! 

                                  ++++++++++YOUR SEARCH IS OVER+++++++++

Last week, I successfully extracted over 300,000 FRESH EMAIL ADDRESSES from 
people all over the country, who have expressed interest in On-line Business 
Opportunities. 

         $$$$$ ((((((((( THAT'S OVER 300,000 TARGETED LEADS !!! ))))))) $$$$$$

Imagine how many hits you would get if only 1% of these people were interested in 
your offer. Lets see...

                                 300,000 x .01 = 3,000 HITS TO YOUR WEB SITE !!!!


{{{{{ STOP WAISTING YOUR TIME ON PROGRAMS THAT DON"T WORK !!! }}}}}
 
           
              ****** THESE PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR OFFER !!! ******
                                     
We not only believe that you will get thousands of hits to your website, we 
guarantee it !! It's easy to give a guarantee like this because these people want to 
do business with you !!!
                         
                                         Are you ready for a TRAFFIC EXPLOSION ???


                                                   http://emailexplosion.iwarp.com 


DISCLAIMER: This e-mail was sent to you because you or someone who uses 
your computer has expressed an interest in business opportunities. We apologize 
if you are not interested in our ad. To be permanantly removed from our database, 
kindly reply to this e-mail with the words "REMOVE ME" in the subject line. Your 
name will be promptly removed from our database. 

-God Bless !!!





From ichudov at algebra.com  Sat Jan  6 07:14:15 2001
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:14:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: remailers still operating?
Message-ID: <200101061514.f06FEGa03359@manifold.algebra.com>


I would like to have some fun on usenet, but I lost track of the current
state of anon remailers. Are they still operational?

	- Igor.




From chilibean6 at home.com  Sat Jan  6 07:28:06 2001
From: chilibean6 at home.com (Jose Lopez Jr.)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:28:06 -0600
Subject: SB3100 internal menu?
Message-ID: <000f01c077f5$44cdba40$a6ab0e18@hmmnd1.in.home.com>

Did you ever find out the program to acces the cable modem?

If so, can you email me the answer.
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jan  6 07:52:11 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 09:52:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.519 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010106095208.25692X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:25:48 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.519

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 519  January 4, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
Stein          

PHYSICS NEWS STORIES OF THE YEAR.  Our top three
stories represent one definite sighting and two near misses: the
discovery of the tau neutrino (Update 495) and the report of
statistically-poor but fascinating evidence for quark-gluon plasma
(Update 470) and the Higgs boson (502).  Other top physics
events for the year 2000 include (in roughly chronological order
through the months) the resolution of the astrophysical x-ray
background into discrete sources (467); the ability to guide atoms
around "atom chips" (469, 486); all-optical NMR (472); quantum
entanglement of 4 ions in a trap (475); the fabrication of a "left-
handed" composite material, one possessing both a negative
electrical permittivity and a negative magnetic permeability (476);
the best map yet of the cosmic microwave background, showing
that the curvature of the universe is zero (479, 481); the
observation of quantum heat, particles of thermal energy moving
down wires (481); the best measurement, by a factor of 10, of the
gravitational constant G (482), with a corresponding adjustment in
the mass of the Earth; the first-time measurement of gravity at the
micron distance scale as part of the search for extra dimensions
(483); the quantum superposition of superfluid currents flowing in
both directions through a SQUID (492); a record number of
daughter particles made in heavy-ion collisions at RHIC (505);
numerous advances  in quantum cryptography (480); light slowed
to 1 mph (472); advances in delivering drugs and genes with
ultrasound-activated bubbles (487); and the discovery that
entangled photons can defeat the diffraction limit (503).

NONCLASSICAL LIGHT.  A feature of quantum theory is that
objects should have both particle and wave properties.  Thus,
things usually encountered as particles such as electrons or atoms
show their quantum, or nonclassical, nature in the form of
wavelike effects.  Conversely, light, which can usually be
described by a wave equation, shows its nonclassical side by
acting like a particle.  In most optics experiments, even those
involving lasers, the light produces only classical effects which
can be described using 19th century electromagnetism.  For
example, a grocery scanner diode laser emits about 10^15 photons
per second.  When such a stream encounters a half-silvered
mirror, half of the light will be reflected, and half transmitted. 
With so many photons, the individual particle nature is hidden
when the photons are detected at photodiodes sitting behind each
exit port of the beamsplitter. If the original laser beam is replaced
with a source of single photons, then the story is different: a lone
photon might well have an equal chance of going towards either
detector, but it will ultimately register in only one, a sure sign of
quantum behavior.  One can probe these issues more deeply by
using entangled photon pairs.  Kevin Resch, Jeff Lundeen, and
Aephraim Steinberg at the University of Toronto send ultraviolet
(UV) light into a special crystal in which a single UV photon can
produce two red photons in a process called down-conversion. 
One of the red photons is vertically polarized and the other is
horizontally polarized, and therefore the photons can be time-
delayed relative to one another by varying the thickness of
birefringent material (which can swivel a light wave's orientation)
traversed by the photon.  By adjusting the delay between the
photons, the researchers were able to change the number of
photon pairs emerging from an interferometer without changing
the intensity, or brightness, of the beam.  Owing to the intrinsic
nonlinear response of the detectors this quantum interference
effect then became apparent in the counting rate at a single
detector (an effect never before observed) and not just in the
coincidence rate between a pair of photodetectors.  The
researchers believe that the ability to observe such nonlinear
responses in photodetection at the single photon level may be
useful to the study of decoherence in photodetection and for
providing an experimental basis for developing a more accurate
theoretical description for photodetection.  (Physical Review A, 1
February 2001; Kevin Resch contact: 416-946-3162,
resch at physics.utoronto.ca.)




From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org  Sat Jan  6 07:14:58 2001
From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:14:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FWD from Wilfred@Cryogen.com: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052207580.7921-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101060938430.24016-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>


On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:

> 
> I highly recommend anyone go see it if they get the chance. I also welcome any 
> corrections or additions to 30-year old schoolboy memories. 
> 
> jbdigriz 
> 

Ok, I'll correct myself then. It never was a commercial satellite
communications center, but the 85 ft. VHF dishes sure could pick up commercial 
traffic. It did do telemetry for a lot of vital birds, too. 

It was the 2nd of NASA's STDN (Spaceflight Tracking and Data Network) VHF
telemetry stations, opening in 1963. The first was outside Fairbanks,
Alaska. Mostly for unmanned LEO satellites like GEOS-3, but also used when 
needed on manned missions like Apollo-Soyuz. Data could be routed in real-time 
to other NASA telemetry stations like Wallops Flight Center for digitizing and
processing, or taped and mailed. So there were some serious phone lines 
running into the place even then. 

It was mainly used for NASA missions, then, and some DOD stuff. I'm
sure some other TLA's had some presence, as well. You can easily
see why the NSA would be interested in it, at any rate, given what we know
about Echelon now. And it was already built to the nines, isolated,
secluded, and crawling with security systems. 

Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute has a website at
http://www.pari.edu that has more informatation and lots of pictures. See
especially http://www.pari.edu/ToursHistory.htm.

jbdigriz    





From info at domain4u.st  Sat Jan  6 13:46:17 2001
From: info at domain4u.st (info at domain4u.st)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:46:17 -0600
Subject: Lock in your domain name now!
Message-ID: <200101062146.f06LkHA00504@ak47.algebra.com>




Register your domain name as a .ST domain too!

Just go to:  http://www.nic.st


.ST stands for:

.Strasse, .Street, .SiTe Domain ... etc.

- Take care of your trademark and your domain name!

Secure the domain name in a minute!

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3 year: $75 USD
5 year: $100 USD

Register at:

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option.


And remember - Domains are forever


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Anybody, for example any person, company or organization in the world
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country.

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******************************************************************
UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS NEWSLETTER
Please go to: http://www.nic.st/unsubscribe
******************************************************************

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From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Jan  6 07:43:57 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:43:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <200101060647.WAA17659@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101061643420.9677-100000@dns.interklub.pl>



Pozdrawiam 
Mateusz Ziolek

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001 p.txt at toad.com wrote:

> exporter deals systems 25cents/pound printers 12 cents/pound 
> we can supply you equipment by the piece/pallette or container 
> 
> DO NOT press reply to this email-for more info call 514-744-9665 
> or check our website at http www.merasel.com  which has a 
> downloadable catalog and an email option.
> 
> We will BEAT all ad prices on computer surplus -- give us a try
> 
>     A1 50 Stinson, Ville St. Laurent , 25,000 SQ FT wharehouse 
>     COMMERCIAL COMPUTER EQUIMENT SPECIALISTS  --- upto 80% off
>  terminals  - dat - lasers/ parts - line printers- networking
>  	COMPLETE UNITS -- PARTS -- REPAIRS DEC WYSE IBM HP
>                   W E----- A C C E P T----------A M E X
> Specials:
> ----------			
> HP laser $39   hp ruggedwriter 480cps (list $2000)  $139 
> OKI MICROLINE $49 2 meg matrox pci $6 scsi card $9 3com 3c509 $9
> WYSE ibm DEC qume HP terminals from $75 (over 5000 in stock)
> color tektronix $290 ($3000 REG)  QMS color $290 8mm dat $59
> fujitsu dl2300 $39 dl3400 $69 dl5600 $149 dl1100 $29 4mm dat $49
> epson lq570 $69 (reg $249)  epson lq1170 $79 (reg. $299)
> epson dfx 5000 $349  APC UPS $40 STAR reciept printer $59
> DEC HP GENICOM IBM FUJITSU EXABYTE PRINTRONICS LEXMARK WYSE OKI
> 
> REPAIRS -----> laser, monitor, printer repairs. Fusers $39       
>       
> 
> LASERS ---> OVER 1000 LASERS IN STOCK - SPARE PARTS/FUSERS/TRAYS
>             HP Jetdirects from $39 ($200 list) lexmark marknet
>             HP datasouth DEC oki LEXMARK ibm GENICOM qms etc
> 
> PRINTERS---> fujitsu ibm dec hp epson genicom lexmark OKI 182 $49
> 
> TERMINALS--> 5000 terminals in stock HP DEC IBM WYSE LINK NCD etc
> 
> NETWORKING-> DEC IBM HP CISCO Cabletron (120 port hub $200) 
>              8 port hub $19 3com 3c509 $9 ethernet tokenring 
>              fibreoptic routers wireless satelite etc
> 
> TAPE ------> dat dlt 6250 HP SEAGATE ARCHIVE IBM QUANTUM DLT $249
> 
> Workstation> IBM HP SUN DEC ibm rs6000 model 220 $149 etc
> 
> List is partial if you don't see it ask for it we have it or can 
> get it
> WE PROCESS 350 PALLETTES (SKIDS) OF COMPUTER EQUIPMENT PER MONTH
> COMMERCIAL EQUIPMENT--UP TO 80% off -OVER 5000 TERMINALS in STOCK
> 
> 
> NEW ARRIVALS:
> mylex cacheing raid level 5 pci card 72 pin ram 3 channel $225
> 2 meg matrox pci $12
> 500 3com 3c509
> cisco 2502 20 units 
> cisco ws-x3001 $500 u.s. (new in box)
> cisco igs 
> cisco lgs 
> intel es500mfx $380 new in box  2 port 100base-fx module f/500 
> series switch
> here is the baynetworks/nortel products.
>  
> 
> Model 5110 Supervisory Module  
> Model 5001 950W AC Power Supply 
> Model 5399
> model 5378-f
> Part# AD1004004 Model 5308PS 24-Port 10BASE-T 
> Part# CX1004019 48 Bay DSP Modem Upgrade Kit  North America (T1).
>  
>  We have 14 skids of current model cabletron networking
>  equipment.  List price of about $10,000,000 75% off of list 
>  All is the MMAC line there is ethernet , tokenring fibreoptic ,
>  rj45 and isdn. some part numbers are:
>  
>  irm, irm3 (over 500 units ),fdmmim, esxmim, emme, tprmim-22
>  emm-e6, fdcmim-08, efdmim,
>  sehi 34 24 port ten base t with lanview rs232 console(125 units)
>  tpmim-22 (over 500 units), tpmim 34 (over 500 units)
>  fot-f2 fibre optic tranceiver, tp-4 rj45 transceiver(over 500) 
>  tpt fj45 tranceiver     (over 500 units)
> 
>         ms-283 bar code gun (200 units) fits termial or pc.
>         cisco igs, ags lgs , 3640 , 2502, 2503
>         annex cm1009e47 
>         at&t comsphere 3000
>         bay networks cm1001070  mlb 360-084-901 option 1         
>     360-072-936 rev a5
>         36 port remote annex 4000
>         bay networks cv1001018 adv. remote node 100 base fx arn
>         bay networks cv0011013  token ring expansion
>         bay networks 450-1sr mda media dependent adapter module  
>                100 base sx
>         bay networks ae1001005 p/n 111375
>         baynetworks an flash card corporate suite p/n112639 rev a
>         bay networks ae1001010 p/n 113359
>         bay networks db1501e16   (MARLIN) ISDN ROUTER two channel 
>         bay networks model 800
>         memotec da3214
>         memotec netaccess 900
>         motorola mp router 6520 voice, data , fax
>         synoptics 3395a, 3308ba, 3313sa
>         teleglobe dm1000, dm2200, MP 9000
>         uds ddsmr64, ddsmrs,3266
>         xylogics clam na/d
>         xylogics 4002-pn1  (REMOTE ANNEX 4000)
> 	tec b-602-gs20-us label printer
> 
>  
>                                    HP items - all prices U.S.
> 
> laser trays over 2000 in stock --- fusers hp ii,iiisi,4si,4,ETC
> hp differential drive towers 4 x 4.3 gig barracuda 
> 			     4 x 2.2 gig fujitsu 
> 			     4 x 1.2 gig $249
> 
> HP D4943A NETRAID PCI RAID LEVEL 5 ADAPTER NEW IN THE BOX
> 
> hp 9000 e35
> hp9000 f20
> hp 9000 800/140 857s
>     (upgrade a2464a)
>     a1703-60022
>     28696-60001
>     28640-60001
>     gpib
>     802.3
>     scsi (se) parallel
>     c1504b 4mm dat drive
>     c2474s 2 units
>     1150-1865
> 
> advancestack 27288a router 430, ROUTER 230, ROUTER 440
> hp28673a bridge
> hp4995a lanprobe II
> hp2564b printer 
> hp 2563c
> hp 2563a
> jetdirect j2550 j2552 j2371 j2555 jetdirect ex etc 
> router 430, 440
> all jetdirect cards $100 except j2555 $60
> 27286a router tr (cisco 4000 equivalent)
> 27289a router fr
> 28682A  FIBRE OPTIC HUB
> 28674A BRIDGE
> 28688B HUB
> C2261A STORAGE ENC
> 27270A ROUTER
>     CARDS : ENET 27271
>    SYNC 27270
>    SYSI/O
> 
> hp 9000 series 700 128 meg  a1421x a2278b
> eisa card #1 (looks like a digiboard ) bit 3 computer corporation 
> model 487-1-201
> eisa card #2 fddi fibre optic transciever crescendo 
> communications model
>                                                              
> es-9211-xf
> eisa card #3 daughter board of above card
> hp ux 4 cd set release 9.0 part #b2826-13681
> $call     have 2   in stock
> 
> 20 inch trinitron for the above (manufactured sept 1994) $400
> 
> hp 28682a fibreoptic hub plus
> for hp dat drives and auotoloaders check our dat section
> 
> iiisi jetdirect for banyan rj45 and coax
> rj45 jetdirect for hp III
> coax jetdirect for hp III
> jetdircet combo for iiisi/ivsi 
> 
> !!!!!!!  HP RUGGEDWRITER  $190
> hp apollo 400 16 meg 425 hard drive $400
> hp 20inch and 17 inch trinitrons   
> 500 NEW hp II and III trays
> 60 NEW boxed HP IV multitrays
> 200 NEW HP 3si/4si trays
> hp under sheet feeder for hp IIP/IIIp
> Terminals HP 700/92,700/22, 700/94,700/96es  
> HP 98578
> DOT MATRIX HP 2631G
> DOT MATRIX HP2563A  
> HP 7958
> INKJET HP PAINTJET Xl
> PLOTTER HP 7550A plotter , 7475a, draftmaster, draftmaster ii
> PLOTTER PENS FOR HP (VACUUM SEALED SETS ) $5
> SYSTEM HP 7936
> SYSTEM HP MICRO X3 3000
> 
> TAPE DRIVE HP 9144
> TERMINAL HP 35731A 
> TERMINAL HPD1181E
> HP LASERJET I   $40 HP LASERJET II  $80 HP LASERJET IID $130
> HP LASERJET IIID $195 HP LASERJET IIISI 17PPM  $370
> HP ivSI 17PPM 600DPI HP LASERJET 2000 40 PPM 11x17
> 98546a
> draftmaster sx plotter
> draftmaster I plotter 7595
> draftmaster II plotter 7576a
> 2345a dtc
> 2463a
> laserjet 2000
> hp 4955a logic analyser
> 
>                    DAT and tape drives  Prices in U.S. $
>                   I WILL BEAT ALL AD PRICES ON DAT DRIVES !!!!
> 
> The following list is incomplete for items not listed please call 
> 514-744-9665
> 
> scsi ribbon cable $1
> scsi centronics to db25 $5
> scsi mini to mini $10
> scsi centronics to centronics $5
> 
>  SUPER SPECIAL EXABYTE EXB8200 8MM DAT $59 $u.s.
>  adaptek 1522 scsi controller $10
>  adaptek 1542 scsi controller $15
>  future domain scsi controller $10
> exabyte exb210 autochanger 600 gig !!!!!!!  $1900 u.s.
> dlt 20 gig               $350
> dlt 30 gig $450
> dlt loader 280 gig $4000
> hp 35470 4 gig 4mm dat $99
> 150 meg archive, wangtek (5150) $25         case $5 extra
> archive 150e, archive 2525s ,archive 4320nt,archive 
> 4324np,archive 4350xt
> conner ctd8000e-s
> hp c1553 dd3 4mm autoloader $299 96 gig 
> emerald vas026 9000
> exabyte ex4200c
> exabyte exb8500 8mm $129, exabyte exb8205 8mm $149
> exabyte exb8205xle 8mm $169
> exabyte exb8505xls 8mm 14 gig $399 
> exabyte exb10-chs 8mm 10 tape autochanger , exabyte exb10-chse 
> hp 1300s       $99
> hp model 35470 $99 2 gig 4 mm
> hp model c1504 $299
> legacy 500s $50, legacy 525s $50, legacy 2000s $99 2 gig 
> legacy 2200d 4mm 2 gig $59, legacy 4000d 4mm 4 gig $99,
> legacy 8000d 4mm 8 gig $199
> sony sdt 500
> seagate ctl 96gs 96 gig 4 tape autochanger
> trimm da5
> tecmar datavault 4000 
> wangdat 3200, wangtek 6130 hs $99
> external enclosure $8
> qualstar 6250 9 track $480
> dec tu81 $400
> 6250 tapes New $5 Used $1
> 8mm 5 gig tapes used $3
> 3480 tapes new $3 used $1 
> 6525 tapes new $3 used $1
> tk50 tapes new $3 
> 
> call 514-744-9665          we accept amex call 514-744-9665   
> 514-744-9665
> dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
> dec vax vax
> dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
> dec vax vax
> 
>            Digital Equipment - All prices in U.S. $
> 
> New arrivals: vax 4105a  
>               rz27 disk
>               128 meg
>               cd rom
> 	      vaxstation 4000 60   (35 units)
>                   16 meg 
>                   rz23
>                   rz26
>                   vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
> 	      vaxstation 4000 90
>                   16 meg 
>                   rz23
>                   rz26
>                   vrt19-ha (20 inch trinitron color)
> 	      vax 3100 90
> 	      vax 3100 80
>               tf86 tape drives  (dlt)
>               tf85 tape drives (dlt)
> 	      280 gig dlt loader 
>               dsrvg-ma   decserver 90l+ 
>               dehub-ax
>               1 detmm-m  decrepeater 900 tm
> 	      1 dmhub-mb
>               decnis 600
> 	      dex2r-z routeabout access ew
> 	      dex2r-m routeabout access ew
> 	      dez8r-p routeabout central ew
> Networking:   dsrvh-n decserver 90m
> 	      h7082-88
>               decserver 700 $475   8 port dsrvw-aa
>               decserver 550 dsrvs-c2b03 with multiple cxy08 card
>               pmad-a   p/n 54-19874-01 
>               pmaz    p/n 54-19876-01 
>               rf-delni -aa (fibre optic output)   
>               decrepeater 90T   detmr-m   $150 ea    
>               decrepeater 90T+  detmr-n   $150 ea    
>               decserver 90l+   dsrvg-ma   $225
>               decbridge 90+    dewgb-m   
>               dehub 90 ax               1
>               dehua-nb
>               DESPR-AA,PC100-B,DECROUTER 250,LANBRIDGE 
> 150,LANBRIDGE 100
>               DEC200 NICS, pm37b-by, delni-ba, ab74100b7c, 
> dsrva-aa,dempr-aa
>               h7317,pm20b-ag, dsrvb-aa,lanbridge debet-ac
>               70-19062-01, 70-31353-01, devp03, dvrvb-b, demsa-aa
>               decserver 300
>               vxt2000
>               ba350 scsi enclosure
>               dsrvb-a
>               lxy12
>               decserver 100,decserver 200dl, decserver 200md,
>               decserver 300 dsrvf-ba
>               dsrvf-b,rf-vx20a-m9, di-31cp1-a cpu ka41,lanbridge 
> 150
>               P/N DEC 7876-AA  dehub ax power supply   
>               DSRVB-B,DSRVB-A, DEC REPEATER 350 ,P/N DERFVS240A 
> 20  
>               DESPR-AA THINWIRE REPEATER
>               DECMUX 300 P/N DM308-a,MUX SERVER 310 P/N DSRZC-B  
>                        
>               MUXSERVER 300 P/N DSR2C-A            
>      
> 
> TERMINALS: VT220,VT320,VT330,vt330+,vt340,vt340+,vt420 $99, 
> vt510, vt520     
>      VRM17-AA VRT19-DA VRT19-HA VR241-A VR299 VR290-DA have 200 
> spare lk450
> 
> PRINTERS: LA50 
> $50,LA70,la75$70,la75s-a2$110,la100$70,la210$99,la324 $300,
>           la424 $550,lno3$50,lno3+$75,DECWRITER III $170, RFLAIDR 
> $200,
>           lp27 $300, lp37,LQP45,lgo1,lg02,lg31
> 
> DRIVES      : 
> rd53,rd54,tz30,tk50,tk70,tu81,tu81+,tz85,tz86,ra60,ra90
>               ese20-ba   - 120mb ram memory drives  4  
>               ra650-xa   - 5 1.2 gig sdi drives 1 250 meg ra70
>               ra600  2 1.2 gig ra70
>               h7142 power supplies 6  
>               micro technolory inc. stingray  has 4 rackmount
>                  stingray hard drive controllers 1 2.1 gig 
> seagate barracuda
>                  10 hard drive enclosures
>               hsc50  2    sdi disk drive controllers
> 
> SYSTEMS:
>         vaxstation 4000 60
>                 vx46k-ad
>                 cpu ka46
>                 rz 25e
>                 video card 5020364-01 d3  5420366
>                 ram 2 pieces of 5419103  5019079-01
> 
>         vaxstation 4000 60
>                 vx46k-ad
>                 cpu ka46
>                 tzk10-aa tape drive 
>                 2 hard drives  rz 25e
>                 video card 5020364-01 d3  5420365
>                 ram 2 pieces of 5419145  5019144-01
> 
> 
>         microvax 3100 80
>                 tz30
>                 board 54-20652-01
>                 rz26e hard drive
> 
>         microvax 3100 40
>                 tz30
>                 54-20654-01 h02
>                 rz 26e hard drive 
>                 on onboard ram no modules
> 
>         microvax 3100 30
>                 tz30
>                 board 54-20654-01
>                 on onboard ram no modules
> 
>         microvax 3100
>                 dj31esa-a-a01
>                 tz30
>                 54-18858-01
>                 50-18905-01
>                 54-18905-01
>                 501982901
>                 rz24-e
> 
>         microvax 4000 600
>                 tk70
>                 128 meg ram  ( 2 units l4002aa  ms690-ca)
>                 kfqsa
>                 kzqsa
>                 no hard drive
>                 
>         microvax 4000
>                 6600r-b2
>                 m9047
>                 h7868-a
>                 desqa-sk
>                 ms650-bf
>                 tk70 sf
>                 tk70
>                 
> 
>         dec 3000 400
>                 pe401-cb
>                 rz26
>                 cpu kn15-ba
>                 cd rom
>                 vid 50-21142-01
>                 ram 8 pieces of 5421139cl 
> 
>               vaxstation 8 meg ram modules mso2  p/n 54-16812-01 
>  120  
>               vax 4000-100a
>               vt1300 50
>               decsystem 5500
>                  2200h-b9 series ba400
>                  ms220-ba
>                  m7639
>                  kn220 m7637
>                  kn220 m7638
>                  2 rf72, tlz04 (dat) ,
>               vax 4000 300,vax 4000 200,microvax 3800,microvax 
> 3400
>               microvax 3100
>      VAXSTATION 4000/VLC 24 MEG 20 INCH TRINITRON RZ23L HARD 
> DRIVE $    
>      VAXSTATION 3100 M38 2 SCSI HARD DRIVES 20 INCH 
> TRINITRON......$    
>      VAXSTATION 2000
>      decstation 2100 pm10a-ba
>      DS5000-200 ,ds500--125,ds5000-240,MICROVAX II     
> 
> MISC
> ----
>      TK50 MEDIA(new)$5 used $3                          
>      DEC 16 BIT ETHERNET $5                     
>      DEC 8 BIT PDA508 $3                         
>      DEC DESTA                 
> 
> dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec dec 
> dec vax vax
> 
> 
> We will beat any ad price on  ibm equipment   prices u.s $
> 
> SYSTEMS:
>         powerstation 220  type 7011     
>         2.5 gig seagate barracuda
>         32 meg
>         powerstation 220  type 7011       50 units in stock
>         500 meg
>         32 meg
> 
>         powerstation 340 type 7012
>         2 scsi drives p/n 55f9915
>         scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
>         token ring 74f8653
>         16 pieces of 4 meg 72 pin (on 2 cards 8 pieces each)
>         color card fru 71f1223
>                processor card fru 00g3149 cpu 37
> 
>         powerstation 370 type 7012
>         2 scsi drives p/n 75g3628
>         scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
>         token ring 74f8653
>         64 meg  
>         processor card fru 51g9441
> 
>         powerstation 410 
>         2 gig scsi drive
>         scsi bus extension fru 00g2721
>         token ring 74f8653
>         64 meg 
>         color video fru 88g2749 609
>         token ring fru 7280422
> 
>         powerstation 320
>         XSTATION 150 15 UNITS
>         XSTATION 120 100 UNITS
> 3com 3c319 rj45 and db9 isa 16  130 units
> ibm auto 16/4 fru 9873456 rj45       approximately 200 units   
> isa 16
> olicom 00055797-12671-73c-opin  fcc id an055h6800   rj45 and db9 
>  isa 16
> dca 014253 rev a 500 units rj45 and db9 mca and isa  
> smc 8115t c d2 4996  400 units rj45 and db9 isa 16
> madge smart at ringnode 152-034-04   152-028-14  100 units 
> intel rj45 and db9 isa 16 200 units
> card swiper 4717 3
> ibm 16/4 short card 
> ibm 5250 8 bit 
> hp jetdirect j2555-60003  
> hp jetdirect j2373-60001  db9  
> hp jetdirect ex j2383  db9 rj45 external unit with power supply 
> proteon 1392+  16 bit isa tokenring  
> ibm powerstation 320h 32 meg 16 ports for terminals
> ibm sierra xterminal model 120 8 megs ram p/n 950-000024-000
> terminal ibm 3151, 3192,3196,3197,3471,3472
> terminal ibm 3472 color (same tube /flyback) as 3477
> terminal ibm 3477, 5085-1, 5272,3178c,
> terminal ibm p/n 83x7944  color
> controller ibm 
> 3174-1r,3174-1l,3174-11r,3174-51r,3174-61r,3174-91r
> mau ibm 3299 2 8 port coax
> ibm 5242,4224  $200,4230,4234,4324,3812 2,3287, 5210 go2
> ibm 8228 10 port token ring p/n 6091014  50  
> ibm irma2
> ibm auto 16/4, ibm lanstreamer pci tokenring
> lexmark 4109, 4029, 4039
> proteon 
> 7202,33g4389,6091014,4459,4869-009,4869,3174-g2454,3274-41d
> 5362,3268 2,4869-002,4869,3299-2,7010,3044-d02,9404 as400
> 23-p2899,3820,2380,2381,33g4389
> madge token ring cards
> mca network cards  16/4 
> mca adaptek scsi cards  also future domain $20
> assorted other microchannel cards 
> token ring cables 
> proteon cnx 500 and cnx 600 routers dual ethernet token ring 
> model
> 
> inkjet
> ------
> kodak diconix inkjet portable - runs on batteries or adapter$19
> hp thinkjet.................................................$19
> hp deskjet..................................................$29
> hp paintjetcolor continous feed ............................$39
> hp paintjet xl  - takes wide paper..........................$79
> kodak 300w - takes wide paper-- 
> epson sq2500 takes wide paper SUPER HIGH SPEED HUGE CARTRIDGE
> 
> dot matrix
> ----------
> epson lq570  lq 570, fxl070 fx 1070 
> epson lq2500 color - computerized 7 layer form 
> (reg$1099)......$129
> toshiba p341,p351...................................$call
> mannesmann tally mt330, mt390 ,mt86, mt660, mt661, t6045 
> nec p9 color dot matrix commercial................
> printronics mvp, p300, p600, 9012 (1200 lines per minute - WOW)
> genicom 1010, 1020 , 3210 3820 3840
> genicom line printers 4410xt, genicom 4410, genicom4490..$call
> okidata 82,ml182,ml320,ml321,ml380,ml395,ml393+,ml591,ml2410
> hp ruggedwriter high speed commercial dot matrix 
>          accepts input from tray or tractor (reg $1500)...$199
> fujitsu dl2400, 5600 and many genicom, datasouth,mannes tally, 
> tektronix phaser iipx, phaser cp, pahser 220, phaser iii, 4694
> qms colorscript 100 model 10    serial parallel scsi
> qms colorscript 230 11x17, magicolorcx color toner csl 1000-1
> qms ps 2210 black and white 11x17 serial parralel scsi
> 50 tektronix toners reordr no. 016-0898-00
> qmd colorscript 100 color toners 4 color  $20 u.s
> part number 1730451-013                      $20 u.s.2
> 
> we will beat any ad price   mac note the prices in u.s. $
>                             ---
>         mac laserwriter iint $59
>         mac laserwriter      $29
>         nec postscript laser , 4 meg ram $49
>         hp paintjet 300  wide carriage color postscr inkjet $59
>         mac mono monitor $   9 color 13 inch $19
>         20 inch trinitron monitor for mac $199
>         20 mono monitor for mac radius tpd/19 $49
>         radius pivot $55
>         scsi syquest 88 meg $25, scsi cd $10, scsi enclosure $8,
>         scsi ribbon cables $1, external cabels $5, terminator $5
>         old mac machines iicx etc $40  mac se $15
> 
> 3com 3c509, 3c905
> 3480 TAPES NEW TENEX BRAND $3
> QUALSTAR  6250 TAPE DRIVE (SCSI) $350
> chipcom 5006c - 5000m-ctl
>                 5104m-f1b
> lan/wan optimizer series 5000 model 5010l p/n acx067g110001l-r
> gandalf premier lanline 5220 p/n 7707z1
> gandalf mux 2000 16 port  10  
> gandalf mmux 2000 8 port 10  
> gandalf swith mux   5  
> proteon cnx 500 router  3  , cnx 600 router  1 unit
> newbridge 1032 mainstreet p/n 90-0533-01 channel banks 32 port
> newbridge 1082 8 port
> gandalf starmaster
> lots of gandalf ldm and lds series modems  lds120a, 
> lds120e,ldm309a, ldm409a 
> ibm 3174-11r, 3174-51r ibm 3174-61 ribm 3174-91r
> intel satisfaction modems, satisfaction 200, 400, 400e , 
> pcfm6401v, pccb6201a 
> bicc datanetworks thin ethernet repeater model # 1121-0 20  
> comterm c6274-201
> dg 1348 as tape drive with wheels
> dg mv4000 dc
> digiboard 8 port isa bus  $150
> digiboard digichannel c/com-16
> digital rflaidr looks like genicom c1
> disk mini digital  rl02 
> docking station compaq 2684
> docking station nec op-560-4701
> docking station texas instruments 2581447-0041  c2
> docking station toshiba deskstation ii 10 u
> dot matrix color nec p9xl
> dot matrix oki 321 d2
> dot matrixa centronics 359 p351 p353
> dot matrixa dg 6494 
> dot matrixa dg 6594 c1
> dotmatrixa dataproducts tcg 202   10u a2
> dotmatrixa datasouth ds220, ds180
> dotmatrixa dg 6594  c1
> laser postscript, qms ps820 turbo , ps825 turbo 
> modem gandalf lds 100, lds120a,lds120e, lds300, lds 309a, lds289
> modem gandalf lds 125, mlds, ld140,pacx2000, lds300, lds 389
> modem motorola cdm264 modem
> lattisnet 2510, 102, 3000
> telex 87
> wang 75lis12en
> harris l191-s1
> dest pcsan200
> texas instrument silent 700
> allied telesis centrecom 3008
> sytek 20/100
> npi 521
> general datacom de-1
> codex 2600
> puredata pdc520a, pdc608a, pdc620a
> comterm c6274-201
> telex 076 controller
> questronics cpa17
> ast&t 6386 wgs
> intergraph 340
> datability vcp1000
> css 486te-33
> consultronics fdm-3
> microtel bb5007-ca8575
> control data corporation cyber 910
> memorex telex 1374-51r
> aries iii image analysis system dipix
> telebit t2500
> baytech printer controller
> develcon 7330
> byteway 2000
> cimterm c6274-201
> seikosha sbp-10ai
> allied telesis 5000, 3025, 3024, 3008, 3008sl
> data general mv 12000
> memorex telex 2062
> analogic 68
> codex 6006
> telenet tp3/11-3025
> datawatch dwx86
> canstar ncu 200-00-020
> datasouth performax a600
> dataproducts bp 2000, bp 1500, dp 1000
> gandalf access server pcm2022
>                       npm2021 
>                       lds2123e  <----4
>                       asm2081
>                       gcm2091   <----3
>                       sgm2094
> motorola uds model 201b rm16m m
> adic 530/h
> allied telesis centre com 470
> local data interlynx 3287
> fifth generation systems lc-01
> penril 2332-01
> ostrocom e299 squeezplexor
> gandalf minimau
> synoptics lattisnet 102 powersupply
>                     408 fault status
> ncr 3000
> canstar fibre optic hub
> otc 2160
> cisco igs-r multiprotocal router
> qms csc-100
> castelle lanpress  95054
> honeywell hds2
> 3com 3c1351
> 3com linkbuilder ecs10 type 1200-1 with 12 port utp cards and 
> management card
> motorola 6005
> ods 296
> telenet tp3/11-3025
> delta data 8700t
> memorex telex 2062
> at&t 1600
> ncr 3400
> alpha industries um3000
> system industries csr176700, csr176300, csr176200
> fibrecom 9600r
> chipcom 9314s-st fibre optic hub
> sytek 2550
> comterm dc8101-101
> local data ld 3278
> telebit t2sa
> gandalf 3790z1
> net 3com multiconnect repeater 10u   p/n 3c588
> net allied telisys centercom 810 (switch?) 
> net david systems 6102-01 40 port  rck
> net gandalf lds120, lds140, lds260, lds309, ldm309, ldm409, 9106, 
> 2200226
> net gandalf mux 2000 mmux2000
> net gandalf 6808a rev d1
> net gandalf 500540101 rev 1b
> datability 500540101 rev 1b
> net gandalf p/n 427421 mux?
> net gandalf pacx 2000
> net gandalf sm9600-d
> net gandalf sm9600-oyr
> net gandalf starmaster, access server xl
> net gandalf swithmux 2000
> net memotec mpac mp8002  60 port x25 switch multiprotocol
> net memotec mpac sp8300
> net memotek sp8000 18 port
> net micom m2002
> net newbridge mainstreet 1082 in box
> net paradyne p9600
> network memotek sp800  18 port
> plotter calcomp plotmaster
> plotter hp 7550a
> protec bytelink plus  24 port peripheral sharing device 1 meg 
>              p/n 24p/1m  50  
> puredata 12 port hub + 12 network cards $195  
> qms 4 color toner rolls 2 per box $80 per box p/n 1730451-013
> ricoh 150 opc  20   $30
> sony gdm-1962b $190 20 inch 1024x768
> sony gdm-20d10 (sun) $250
> tectronics hc02 video copy processor (mitsubishi p71u)
> terminal memorex telex 1471 , 1472, 2391g 
> terminal tecktronics 4205 14'
> terminal volker craig 6220   
> terminal wyse 30,50,60 75, 85,99gt,160, 185,285,325,350   
> terminal linc mc3, mc5
> terminal televideo 905, 955, 965
> terminal qume ,qvt31, qvt51, qvt-101, qvt101+
> toner color tektronic 016-0898-0050 40u
> adacom cp150+
> shiva lanrover/8t
> newbridge p/n 1032-8706-0259 32 port channel bank 2u
> timeplex microplex x25 pad 24 port 
> newbridge 1032 mainstreet    p/n 90-0533-31a
> citoh ci4000, ci15000, c310
> m3358a ,ibm 2381, 2391, 5202, 2178, 3192, 5202, 
> facit b3100, 4509, 1513
> epson lq570, lq1170, fx1170, fax 1050, lq2550, lq2500, sq2500, 
> sq2550, etc
> panasonic kxp1592, kxp1624,, raven pr248, pr9101
> alps 324 printer for dec systems 50  
> rf delni with fibre optic interface 50  
> fibre optic tranciever (digital brand) 43  
> gandalf 500540101
> datability 500540101
> gandalf 6808a  revd
> intel netport 306515-004   token ring db9, 306514-003   ethernet 
> rj45 ,306482-004   ethernet aui
> xircom pocket ethernet adapter II pe3-10bt
> seiko smart label printer plus slp1000p  slp1100
> general datacom diz ai
> general datacom dei 
> human design systems hds2000
> memotec isu5600 v.35 dte
> synoptics lattisnet model 2500
> telebit netblazer st
> emerald rap150-9000 tape drive
> hp28681a 10:10 bridge lp
> hemulex jetdirect netjet ethernet  pwb-er2010276-01
> hp jetdirect j2550,j2552,j2555,j2382
> pacifac data jetcard/mio 8 serial 1 parallel
> banyan jetdirect 6034100 20322e rj45 coax
> asp serverjet asp sj400 4 rj45 or 8 rj45
> datability vcp200
> datability vcp1000
> valtek pst250f 250 meg external tape parralel/serial
> mita ldc550
> 3com h46891 ethernet card 16 bit
> 3com etherlink ii 16tp
> 3com elii/16 tp, el2tp 8 bit, etherlink 3c509c parralel tasking 
> adaptek mp401 autoswitch
> hpiiisi i/o card 28644-60002
> pacifac postscript  for laserjet ii,iii pd-016907   
> ibm mca microchannel video xga-2 fru 8tf4774aha1640 aha-1640 
> adaptek isa 16 bit aha1542
> puredate arcnet pdc508a
> ascend mb4bri option nx56isdn 4 x 128k ----8x64k
> memotek da3224
> intel etherexpress 16tp 16 bit ethernet card
> pioneer drm-604x 6 cd changer scsi 
> telenet to8010-16
> seikosha sbp-10a1 
> xyplex maxserver 6020
> qume qvt 31,101,101+, 102, 203+
> datawatch vm14
> volker craig vc8325, vc6220
> AT&T 705 MT
> mai basic four 4313
> memotec mc504
> canon
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Jan  6 07:44:21 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:44:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010105200302.00a7ae68@mail.internet-95.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101061644110.9677-100000@dns.interklub.pl>



Pozdrawiam 
Mateusz Ziolek

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Wilfred L. Guerin wrote:

> jan 05 2001
> 
> News article referencing NSA lookingglass facility, etc... Of both general,
> technical, "esch--" and location oriented interest.
> 
> http://www.sunspot.net/content/cover/story?section=cover&pagename=story&stor
> yid=1150520223288
> 
> -Wilfred
> Wilfred at Cryogen.com
> 




From mati99 at interklub.pl  Sat Jan  6 07:45:08 2001
From: mati99 at interklub.pl (Mateusz Ziolek)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:45:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105153056.00be76e0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101061645000.9677-100000@dns.interklub.pl>



Pozdrawiam 
Mateusz Ziolek

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Reese wrote:

> Prove that you ever had the password.  If you can.
> 
> At 03:24 PM 1/5/01 +0000, Paul Griffiths wrote:
> >SOS
> >I have lost password to a 123.97 spreadsheet. Any advice would be much 
> >appreciated
> >Thanx
> 




From njf82 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  6 16:48:38 2001
From: njf82 at yahoo.com (Keyser Soze)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:48:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20010107004838.92339.qmail@web10410.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 

=====
Search Engines: http://gpcm.tripod.com/search.html

FREE: http://www.freebieclub.com/FC_myFreebies.asp?a=16942

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Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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From freesignup at earthlink.net  Sat Jan  6 14:24:15 2001
From: freesignup at earthlink.net (Boot Man)
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 17:24:15 EST
Subject: Are you a computer user?
Message-ID: <200101062354.PAA01521@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>


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(For problems with your order only. No salesmen will call.)

Email Address____________________________________


[  ] YES! Please rush my Ultimate Boot Disk.  I 
understand I have a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee and can return
my order for the purchase price at any time.

[  ] DOUBLE YES!  I am ordering before January 31st 2000!  
Please include the extra special bonuses!

Note - If ordering outside continental US, please add $2 to S&H

Get This Disk Now
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Secure Visa/MC through paypal.com





You are receiving this list because you were targeted as a person who prefers to pay through the online service paypal.com.  This email was not sent out by Paypal or endorsed by the company itself.  
To Remove Yourself From This List: reply to this email with the email
address that you would like removed and the word REMOVE in the subject heading.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Jan  6 14:27:05 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:27:05 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A560BA8.6F9AD2C7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010106142649.007ba100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:00 PM 1/5/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
> a good example of the US habit of never using a short
>word when a long one will do. But when I found myself amongst Americans
>I was slightly disappointed to find that they almost all say "tap" these
>days. Just as they say "car" instead of "automobile". You are obviously
>all watching too much British TV, or listening to too many British rock
>bands. You should defend your language against this tide of old-world
>vulgarity.

Nah, we're simply Huffman-encoding.  A language has to be efficient
in this meme market :-) 




 






  








From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Sat Jan  6 16:17:53 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 19:17:53 -0500
Subject: FWD from W@C.c: NSA abandons wondrous stuff
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101060938430.24016-100000@dragonsweb.darkte
	ch.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101052207580.7921-100000@dragonsweb.darktech.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010106191753.010788c0@mail.internet-95.com>



-=|[ NASA/NSA and PARI, etc ]|=-

Of first note, remind me not to use any fool 'send this to friend'
buttons... :) -- sorry for message weight above...

Secondly, has anyone done the simple mapping and can post a terraserver
link for the facility itself?

Additionally, although located off "Government Road" out in the forrest,
there are a number of other facilities in that area, due east, we have
lookingGlass mountain and whatnot (with related facilities), due west a
short distance is one of the new facilities (for nsa), within proximinity
are prooving and operations grounds for numerous other entities, and
although nicely centralized, if they are transfering the old nasa facility
to a private entity (although with logistic lockdown), it is
logical/feasible that other such facilities will be becoming available in
the near future? -- theres not much use for them now...

Has anyone compiled a 'theorhetical' list or set of basic maps that outline
the physical presence of various entities for public review? This would be
an interesting project now, especially with the open-ness of public
sat/aerial photography, as well as the availability and non-cold-war type
security and new potential for visitors to see the places...

Sidenote: article references an 'exchange' of the astronomers' previous
land to DOD/NSA, possibly such is an interesting facet for potential research?

I would though, like to see an archive and index/lookup of all facilities,
their operations, interactions, etc, just for education/ammusement,
especially with the most recent phase of declassification, im sure 'public
enlightenment' is a high priority of our grey-realm friends... Anyone want
to toss together a script, or provide a host for something i'll easily
build to accomodate the info?

Anyways, back to other ammusements :)

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com

-=|[.]|=-





At 10:14 AM 1/6/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote:
>
>> 
>> I highly recommend anyone go see it if they get the chance. I also
welcome any 
>> corrections or additions to 30-year old schoolboy memories. 
http://www.pari.edu 


.
..




From rketchum at theriver.com  Sat Jan  6 18:33:45 2001
From: rketchum at theriver.com (Robert Ketchum)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:33:45 -0700
Subject: More Info
Message-ID: <000401c07852$42074d00$53c366ce@oemcomputer>


WE are interested in your services. We are looking for a cost effective way
to jump start our homepage. our number is 520.515.9809

Robert and Tanya Ketchum




From simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it  Sat Jan  6 13:40:18 2001
From: simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it (Simone)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:40:18 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <007901c07829$441fc960$03820b3e@host>


::
request-remailing-to: simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it

questa è una prova
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From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca  Sat Jan  6 20:06:59 2001
From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:06:59 -0500
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
References: <012901c077ba$dc4c8a80$eec11d97@seminole>
Message-ID: <3A577AA5.17951.25128D5F@localhost>


> Why?  sexyfun.net traces to a .au domain, and Graeme Platt is already tired
> of hearing from me.
> 
> At 03:26 AM 1/6/01 -0500, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote:
>  >I have sent a copy of this message to a cyber crime officer in Tallahassee

There is a web site at http://www.sexyfun.net which gives some 
information on this virus.  Apparently the domain name sexyfun.net 
was registered after the virus spread in an attempt to help people.  
The owner of the domain appears to be located in North Carolina.

Once the virus inflects a system it sends out messages to everyone 
in the address book.  This virus manages to remove all indication of 
the sender except the IP address being used by the sender.  At this 
point the sender is a victim and abusing them is of little value other 
then they were so foolish to actually run the application when they 
received it.

An easy way to check if you are infected is to drop to a MS-DOS 
prompt and check for files with an extension of "vbs" in the windows 
and windows/system directories.  The www.sexyfun.net web site 
has lots of information and links to all the major anti-virus maker's 
web sites.  







Virtually


Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond at fbn.bc.ca
"The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" 
http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Sun Jan  7 04:56:17 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 04:56:17 -0800
Subject: remailers still operating?
Message-ID: <a453bcbe413145a5667842042c289f29@melontraffickers.com>


On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Igor Chudov wrote:

> I would like to have some fun on usenet, but I lost track of the current
> state of anon remailers. Are they still operational?
>
>       - Igor.
>


Yep.

http://anon.efga.org/Remailers is a good starting point.




From wolf at priori.net  Sun Jan  7 07:19:30 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:19:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107084438.25692m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <200101071326.IAA21222@Prometheus.schaefer.nu>

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From carlwebb at commie.zzn.com  Sun Jan  7 05:32:56 2001
From: carlwebb at commie.zzn.com (Carl Webb)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:32:56 -0600
Subject: Austin's 360 Summit
Message-ID: <4291D8B5984E4D11EA610005B88CF74E@carlwebb.commie.zzn.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 06:45:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 08:45:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107084438.25692m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.sciencedaily.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 06:57:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 08:57:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: What's up w/ CCC in Germany?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107085624.25692n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

Anyone know why the ccc.de node is bouncing?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dakin at nationalpost.com  Sun Jan  7 06:14:27 2001
From: dakin at nationalpost.com (David Akin)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:14:27 -0500
Subject: CBC Undercurrents does privacy
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010106131212.027d3728@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <NEBBKOODCMLJIAIIKLPGMEOLDGAC.dakin@nationalpost.com>


"...this week's Undercurrents . . . tackles the issue of privacy in a wired
world and, frankly, she finds a future that looks bleak. "Nothing comes
free," says a man from Bell, explaining how the phone company makes money
from selling people the tools to protect their basic privacy." - John Doyle,
The Globe and Mail, Jan. 5

Undercurrents airs on CBC at 10:30 pm (EST) Sunday, Jan. 6

Details on Undercurrents (usually with streaming video of the broadcasts can
be be found at http://www.cbc.ca/undercurrents

David Akin / Senior technology reporter
National Post / http://www.nationalpost.com
300-1450 Don Mills Road, Don Mills, Ontario
CANADA / M3B 3R5
VOX: 416.383.2372 FAX: 416.383.2443
dakin at nationalpost.com / AIM: DavidAkin

Click to add my contact info to your organizer:
http://my.infotriever.com/DavidAkin




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 07:47:38 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:47:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <200101071326.IAA21222@Prometheus.schaefer.nu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107094601.25692p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Meyer,

Unfortunately there is no guarantee the URL is stable either.

The point being you've got the topic and they have a search engine.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com
> 
> Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> ever encountered. One would expect sciencedaily.com's website to change
> daily. Hence the name. Now, when someone reads this message of yours two
> weeks from now and wants to see what it is that you were talking about,
> they're not going to be able to find it. Quantum computing will have been
> replaced by stories of monkeys trading sexual favors for food in the front
> page headlines.
> 
> "Well, I have to do it this way or Tim will yell at me for posting HTML"
> you say.
> 
> Wrong. Post a direct link. Everyone's happy. You don't look stupid. We all
> win.
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010105075630.htm
> 
> Now, is that so hard?
> 
> 
> - -MW-
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> Comment: No comment.
> 
> iQEVAwUBOliJESsFU3q6vVI9AQETuAf+MFCuR1YIODPVWJT0u9jlUuxga/ICBIXB
> vOFEXMXfhWGGd1IERVHaUCr5cJFMD2apHJXYDqoWNOwFqUQyQWlk4pNog322kte0
> pJ9TDJT1Np5xRQB40okyjG1aYzoJ7NFCOdFmEBaTZXfvnKr+ho4npb9gW2MMX5xF
> e5JY4yn2Ex2im8wQDP2U80oDRW2GOxp10H0bF2cmQYMNt6gJBIa3RCFPVGpNAhuu
> +t6DfnvhwyU4DTagCwLiD2DR7BwRvr/CF17LR5DAeazWjT98NYHw5XNNKf+a/1S3
> WpLIQWT8qEb9VJCsdih+dB32twcBz+O5nbWTgwpBOsTb6kC1KvCZZw==
> =xByv
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From cels451 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  7 10:06:55 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>


Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
developed
world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
info,
such as address, telephone no, name, etc.

I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
UK and the rest of europe.

regards,



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From remove at mail.epay.sk  Sun Jan  7 11:02:52 2001
From: remove at mail.epay.sk (ePay Inc)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:02:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Does someone you love have dry skin or eczema?
Message-ID: <200101071902.LAA26214@toad.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jan  7 11:27:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 11:27:14 -0800
Subject: remailer test failed
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010107112714.02a31340@idiom.com>


Simone - your remailer test failed.   It looks like two things went wrong.
1) You mailed it to the cypherpunks mailing list itself,
	not to a remailer using the cypherpunks design.
	There's a list of remailers at 
	http://anon.efga.org/Remailers/TypeIList
2) Your message needs to be plain text.  You sent it using a 
	Microsoft X-HTML mail format.  I've attached a copy of what
	I received (in two pieces, since Eudora doesn't like to
	forward X-HTML without converting to plaintext.)
	So instead of seeing a line starting with :: ,
	the remailer sees a line starting with 
	<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>::</FONT></DIV>
	and doesn't know it's a remailer command.


>Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04405
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:39:59 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from mail.tiscalinet.it (mail-4.tiscalinet.it [195.130.225.150])
by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04399 for
<cypherpunks at toad.com>; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:39:56 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from host (62.11.130.3) by mail.tiscalinet.it (5.5.015.5)
>        id 3A51DED4000E79E3 for cypherpunks at toad.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001
22:39:38 +0100
>Message-ID: <007901c07829$441fc960$03820b3e at host>
>From: "Simone" <simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it>
>To: <cypherpunks at toad.com>
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:40:18 +0100
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C07831.A52B8FC0"
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Precedence: first-class
>Reply-To: "Simone" <simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it>
>X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>X-UIDL: b7fc41f2ba40a8ad2e91a25ec82a7e0e

<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>::</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>request-remailing-to: <A 
href="mailto:simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it">simone.lotti at tiscalinet.it</A></FON
T></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>questa h una prova</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 09:48:46 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:48:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CPS-2 Broken
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107114830.25692t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan  7 09:50:00 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:50:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Spam Re: Are you a computer user?
In-Reply-To: <000001c078ce$3665a100$3bc378d4@g8f8d4>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107114854.25692u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Alexandros Andreou wrote:

> Can't the admin do something about all this spam???
> 

Which admin? You must be a newbie, see the archives and

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Sun Jan  7 10:48:13 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:48:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <200101071848.f07ImDF02903@rebma.pro-ns.net>



On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:19:30AM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com
>
> Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> ever encountered.



Is that the regular OR, or do you mean XOR?




From amar at nde.vsnl.net.in  Sun Jan  7 01:34:30 2001
From: amar at nde.vsnl.net.in (Playnet)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:04:30 +0530
Subject: want to save my program ,page on my web site help me
Message-ID: <LPBBKNEKHNICHHMCMLBLIEFICAAA.amar@nde.vsnl.net.in>


want to creat login that no body can hack my password 
also want password protaction, creation of mirror file
amar at nde.vsnl.net.in




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Jan  7 12:51:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:51:27 -0500
Subject: Spam Re: Are you a computer user?
In-Reply-To: <000001c078ce$3665a100$3bc378d4@g8f8d4>
References: <200101062354.PAA01521@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010107123018.007c1150@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:37 PM 1/7/01 -0500, Alexandros Andreou wrote:
>Can't the admin do something about all this spam???

Probably, if there were one.



 






  








From ajenks at microsoft.com  Sun Jan  7 15:56:52 2001
From: ajenks at microsoft.com (Andrew Jenks)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:56:52 -0800 
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119461@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>


In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.

-----Original Message-----
From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: cell phone anonymity


Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
developed
world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
info,
such as address, telephone no, name, etc.

I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
UK and the rest of europe.

regards,



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From abuse at microsoft.com  Sun Jan  7 16:27:19 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 16:27:19 -0800
Subject: Confirmation Receipt
Message-ID: <200101080124.TAA12879@einstein.ssz.com>


Thank you for your inquiry to Abuse at Microsoft.com  

Your e-mail was received on Sun, Jan 7, 2001 at 4:25 PM and will be 
handled personally by one of our Customer Service Representatives within
12 hours. Our Customer Service Representatives can answer general policy
questions, validate your support eligibility, or refer you to the 
appropriate phone, e-mail, or Web resource.

To explore online support options, please visit 
http://support.microsoft.com/directory/default.asp.

Thank you, 
Microsoft Product Support Services




From sbrown249 at excite.com  Sun Jan  7 13:34:11 2001
From: sbrown249 at excite.com (sbrown249 at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:34:11 -0500
Subject: Take aim at e-commerce
Message-ID: <00003ebe4962$000036f7$00001598@209.162.52.75>

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From cels451 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  7 17:44:35 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:44:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <20010108014435.48950.qmail@web11404.mail.yahoo.com>


>To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards
and change
>frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not
counting the prepaid
>calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is
sending it's serial
>number (but who - except for deep insiders and
possibly Lucky Green -

Your belief is ... well, unfounded. Cell phones do
always
send the handset ID. You must exchange handsets with
SIM cards.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From vab at cryptnet.net  Sun Jan  7 15:00:05 2001
From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:00:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PGP Key Signing Party! (Gainesville, Fl)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101071753480.9170-100000@sovereign>

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From andreou at netexperts.gr  Sun Jan  7 08:27:31 2001
From: andreou at netexperts.gr (Alexandros Andreou)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:27:31 +0200
Subject: Spam Re: Are you a computer user?
References: <200101062354.PAA01521@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000001c078ce$3665a100$3bc378d4@g8f8d4>


Can't the admin do something about all this spam???




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jan  7 15:29:51 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 18:29:51 -0500
Subject: Steven Levy Book Tour
Message-ID: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Steven Levy writes:

Here is a link to some sites for a book tour:

   http://www.penguinputnam.com/stevenlevy/tour.htm

Not on there for some reason is a reading/discussion at Microsoft's Mountain
View (CA) campus on Jan 12 at 3:30 p.m. that's open to the public.  Another
public event is Jan. 16 at the University of Washington bookstore in
Seattle, at 7 pm. 

-----

Sorry I failed to mention previously the full title of Steve's new book
(first posted, I thnk, by Commando Hettinga):

"CRYPTO: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government - Saving 
Privacy in the Digital Age."

And more:

Endorsements for Crypto by Neal Stephenson, Kevin Kelly and David Kahn:

"You've got to hear this story of how renegade geniuses and unlikely heroes
liberated crypto from under the noses of spooks, and installed the code in
the dream servers of dot-coms. This book persuaded me that despite the
dangers of strong crypto (it gives a chance for evil to hide) providing it
to the public was a Very Good Thing. Crypto not only makes e-commerce
possible, it is also the first political movement in the digital era. Read
about the future here."
--Kevin Kelly, author of New Rules for the New Economy and Editor-at-Large,
Wired Magazine

"At last! The human story of the breakthroughs that gave us e-commerce and
privacy on the Internet. Steve Levy has written cryptography's Soul of a New
Machine.'"
--David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers

"Civilian crypto hardly existed three decades ago.  Now we can't get cash
from an ATM or buy something on the Net without it.  To tell the story
coherently is a service, and to tell it entertainingly is a favor to anyone
with a stake in crypto--which nowadays means all of us.  CRYPTO  is a book
that needed to be written and Steven Levy has written it. "
-- Neal Stephenson, author of Cryptonomicon

Author Bio

Steven Levy is also the author of Hackers and Insanely Great: The Life &
Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything. He is Newsweek's
chief technology writer, a former writer for Macworld, and a frequent
contributor to Wired.






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Sun Jan  7 15:34:43 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:34:43 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDOEBGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


RE: actual cell phone buying experiences in Europe...

In Greece you can purchase a GSM cell phone with smart card reader for cash
(sometimes free if you purchase a smart card along with the phone)...no
address, phone number, etc. required to receive the phone.  Smart cards with
pre-set values (usually $5, $10 and $25 worth in Greek drachmas) are
purchased in cash via the thousands of corner kiosks or at electronics
stores, etc.  Again, no name, phone number, address, etc. required to
purchase smart cards.

The Greek GSM cell phones are useable across all of Europe, including the UK
and Eastern Europe, Russia, etc.  Plus the phones can be modified to
interact with Voicestream's US GSM-type service (I've been told, not
experienced first hand).

Phillip Zakas

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of montag montag
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:07 PM
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: cell phone anonymity



Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
developed
world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
info,
such as address, telephone no, name, etc.

I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
UK and the rest of europe.

regards,



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/





From PaulMerrill at acm.org  Sun Jan  7 16:55:57 2001
From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:55:57 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
References: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119461@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>


But, the rates on the prepaid services are
exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
always, you don't get more than you pay for.

PHM

Andrew Jenks wrote:
> 
> In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
> computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
> locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
> done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
> available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
> Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> X-Loop: openpgp.net
> From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: cell phone anonymity
> 
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/

-- 
Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
PaulMerrill at ACM.Org





From commerce at home.com  Sun Jan  7 18:35:00 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:35:00 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
References: <3A53606F.3552F6FF@lsil.com> <3A537BE0.4A4E9E96@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <03fd01c0791b$99751940$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver"
> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> >  nefarious activities. Same as Napster. What a stupid shit.
Think the
> > next prez will do any better picking an AG? Don't bet on it.
>    Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked.
Asscroft,
> the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his
ultra-fascist voting
> record. Gag. Barf.

Yes, but I bet he will burn very few children to death in a
church during his first year.

Nothing short of him raping babies with a ricin dildo while
banning swear words on the internet as he runs naked through a
synagogue singing horst wessel could put him below Reno.

And what the hell is an ultra-fascist?





From George at Orwellian.Org  Sun Jan  7 19:35:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 22:35:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NZ Snoop Backlash
Message-ID: <200101080335.WAA16172@www6.aa.psiweb.com>


But first...

Butt-ugly KGB watches:

    http://www.russia2all.com/watches/military/watch_military_army.htm

Get yer KGB memorabilia before portals bans it.

----

Wouldn't it be at least something to have a U.S. cabinet level
position of Privacy Commissioner? NZ, Canada but not US.

(via slashdot)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=167151&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Police snooping needs tight rein says report

01/03/2001 By EUGENE BINGHAM political reporter

Plans to give police and spy agencies the power to hack into 
computers and intercept electronic communications will lead to 
unprecedented snooping, the Privacy Commissioner has warned.

In a report calling for limitations to be placed on law 
enforcement bodies, and greater accountability, Bruce Slane 
opposes the "pernicious" practice of police hacking into 
databases.

He has recommended that if police are allowed to hack into 
personal computers, they should need more than a search warrant.

A law change making hacking and other computer snooping illegal 
except when carried out by the Security Intelligence Service 
(SIS), the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) or 
the police is before the law and order select committee.

Associate Justice Minister Paul Swain introduced the legislation 
in November, saying the agencies needed the powers to battle 
crime and terrorism.

Mr Slane reported to the Government on the changes before 
Christmas, welcoming the clamp-down on unauthorised access to 
computer systems but questioning whether there would be enough 
controls on state agencies.

"It is easy to think of the interception of communications or 
the accessing of a computer as affecting only the target of police 
interest," he wrote.

"However ... many other people [are] affected by interceptions 
or computer-related searches.

"Trawling or browsing through a myriad of personal information 
[would be] authorised on an unprecedented scale.

"A single interception warrant can, for instance, authorise 
listening into hundreds of conversations involving scores of 
individuals beyond the targeted individuals."

The new law would clear the SIS to carry out a sting on a database 
once the agency had an interception warrant.

Police would need only a search warrant.

Mr Slane did not believe that a search warrant, issued by a 
justice of the peace, was strong enough.

"Search warrants are not designed for regulating covert 
investigations or surveillance," he said.

"Hacking into a person's computer should be, if allowed at all, 
very much a last resort.

"Search warrants, unlike interception warrants, do not require 
the intrusive technique to be used only as a last resort."

Mr Slane said yesterday that the police should have to obtain 
an interception warrant from a judge too.

Hacking into a computer and intercepting electronic communications 
was far more intrusive than police saying, "We have got some 
evidence this guy's got stolen property."

The report also calls for the GCSB to be omitted from the 
exemption clauses until it becomes a statutory body like the 
SIS.

Prime Minister Helen Clark has said the bureau would be written 
into law this year.

Mr Slane said it should not be given more rights until the public 
was aware of its accountability and powers.

"Unlike the SIS, any interceptions which may be carried out are 
not subject to a statutory warrant process.

"This will not be put right until the GCSB's establishment is 
set out in legislation."





From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Sun Jan  7 19:48:09 2001
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 22:48:09 -0500
Subject: Free FREEDOM REFRESHER COURSE
Message-ID: <200101080351.TAA10000@toad.com>

FREEDOM REFRESHER COURSE
author unknown

a. An armed person is a citizen. An unarmed person is a subject.

b. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

c. Six-shooter: The original point and click interface.

d. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

e. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

f. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

g. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

h. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

i. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

j. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

l. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.

m. 64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.

n. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

o. Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety.

p. You don't shoot to kill; You shoot to stay alive.

q. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer.

r. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

s. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs safer.

t. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson.

u. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control
   them.

v. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

w. We don't enforce unconstitutional laws; we REPEAL them.

x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create
   slaves.

y. The American Revolution would never have happened with "gun
   control."

z. "....a government by the people, for the people....."



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From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:17:24 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:17:24 -0500
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107094601.25692p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 09:47:38AM -0600
References: <200101071326.IAA21222@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010107094601.25692p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010107231724.A3882@cluebot.com>


Choate: Moron or obstinate?

The truth is somewhere in between. As Choate knows, many news sites
keep URLs active for quite a while. Wired.com URLs from 1995 still
work, for instance.

And search engines aren't always updated or don't always work that
well. Etc. Like I said, a little of both.

-Declan



On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 09:47:38AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi Meyer,
> 
> Unfortunately there is no guarantee the URL is stable either.
> 
> The point being you've got the topic and they have a search engine.
> 
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > > http://www.sciencedaily.com
> > 
> > Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> > ever encountered. One would expect sciencedaily.com's website to change
> > daily. Hence the name. Now, when someone reads this message of yours two
> > weeks from now and wants to see what it is that you were talking about,
> > they're not going to be able to find it. Quantum computing will have been
> > replaced by stories of monkeys trading sexual favors for food in the front
> > page headlines.
> > 
> > "Well, I have to do it this way or Tim will yell at me for posting HTML"
> > you say.
> > 
> > Wrong. Post a direct link. Everyone's happy. You don't look stupid. We all
> > win.
> > 
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010105075630.htm
> > 
> > Now, is that so hard?
> > 
> > 
> > - -MW-
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > Comment: No comment.
> > 
> > iQEVAwUBOliJESsFU3q6vVI9AQETuAf+MFCuR1YIODPVWJT0u9jlUuxga/ICBIXB
> > vOFEXMXfhWGGd1IERVHaUCr5cJFMD2apHJXYDqoWNOwFqUQyQWlk4pNog322kte0
> > pJ9TDJT1Np5xRQB40okyjG1aYzoJ7NFCOdFmEBaTZXfvnKr+ho4npb9gW2MMX5xF
> > e5JY4yn2Ex2im8wQDP2U80oDRW2GOxp10H0bF2cmQYMNt6gJBIa3RCFPVGpNAhuu
> > +t6DfnvhwyU4DTagCwLiD2DR7BwRvr/CF17LR5DAeazWjT98NYHw5XNNKf+a/1S3
> > WpLIQWT8qEb9VJCsdih+dB32twcBz+O5nbWTgwpBOsTb6kC1KvCZZw==
> > =xByv
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:18:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:18:20 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010107233126.00934100@zebra.swip.net>; from mob@mbox301.swipnet.se on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 11:49:10PM +0100
References: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com> <4.1.20010107233126.00934100@zebra.swip.net>
Message-ID: <20010107231819.B3882@cluebot.com>


Just got to your local cell phone dealer (even blockbuster here
in DC) and buy an AT&T prepaid cell phone for cash.

-Declan


On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 11:49:10PM +0100, Mats O. Bergstrom wrote:
> At 10:06 2001-01-07 -0800, montag montag wrote:
> >Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> >pre-paid cell phone
> 
> GSM/Europe
> 1) Buy a cell phone and pay cash
> 2) Buy a GSM cash-card and pay cash
> 3) Don4t send in the registration form to get that extra half hour!  :-)
> 
> To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards and change
> frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not counting the prepaid
> calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is sending it's serial
> number (but who - except for deep insiders and possibly Lucky Green -
> knows for sure?).
> 
> //Mob
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:18:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:18:59 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>; from cels451@yahoo.com on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 10:06:55AM -0800
References: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010107231859.C3882@cluebot.com>


Ah, sorry, my comments were US-specific.

-Declan

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 10:06:55AM -0800, montag montag wrote:
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
> 




From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:20:28 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:20:28 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>; from PaulMerrill@acm.org on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:55:57PM -0500
References: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119461@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>
Message-ID: <20010107231950.D3882@cluebot.com>


AT&T is $.40/minute, still very high, for larger units such as $100
purchases of minutes. --Declan


On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:55:57PM -0500, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> But, the rates on the prepaid services are
> exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
> smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
> always, you don't get more than you pay for.
> 
> PHM
> 
> Andrew Jenks wrote:
> > 
> > In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
> > computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
> > locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
> > done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
> > available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
> > Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > X-Loop: openpgp.net
> > From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
> > To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> > Subject: cell phone anonymity
> > 
> > Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> > pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> > developed
> > world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> > info,
> > such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> > 
> > I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> > UK and the rest of europe.
> > 
> > regards,
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> 
> -- 
> Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
> PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
> 
> 





From declan at well.com  Sun Jan  7 20:21:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:21:25 -0500
Subject: Steven Levy Book Tour
In-Reply-To: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:29:51PM -0500
References: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010107232125.E3882@cluebot.com>


I took a copy of Steven's book to Aruba and read most of it there.

Very worthwhile. I'll review it soon.

-Declan


On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:29:51PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Steven Levy writes:
> 
> Here is a link to some sites for a book tour:
> 
>    http://www.penguinputnam.com/stevenlevy/tour.htm
> 
> Not on there for some reason is a reading/discussion at Microsoft's Mountain
> View (CA) campus on Jan 12 at 3:30 p.m. that's open to the public.  Another
> public event is Jan. 16 at the University of Washington bookstore in
> Seattle, at 7 pm. 
> 
> -----
> 
> Sorry I failed to mention previously the full title of Steve's new book
> (first posted, I thnk, by Commando Hettinga):
> 
> "CRYPTO: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government - Saving 
> Privacy in the Digital Age."
> 
> And more:
> 
> Endorsements for Crypto by Neal Stephenson, Kevin Kelly and David Kahn:
> 
> "You've got to hear this story of how renegade geniuses and unlikely heroes
> liberated crypto from under the noses of spooks, and installed the code in
> the dream servers of dot-coms. This book persuaded me that despite the
> dangers of strong crypto (it gives a chance for evil to hide) providing it
> to the public was a Very Good Thing. Crypto not only makes e-commerce
> possible, it is also the first political movement in the digital era. Read
> about the future here."
> --Kevin Kelly, author of New Rules for the New Economy and Editor-at-Large,
> Wired Magazine
> 
> "At last! The human story of the breakthroughs that gave us e-commerce and
> privacy on the Internet. Steve Levy has written cryptography's Soul of a New
> Machine.'"
> --David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers
> 
> "Civilian crypto hardly existed three decades ago.  Now we can't get cash
> from an ATM or buy something on the Net without it.  To tell the story
> coherently is a service, and to tell it entertainingly is a favor to anyone
> with a stake in crypto--which nowadays means all of us.  CRYPTO  is a book
> that needed to be written and Steven Levy has written it. "
> -- Neal Stephenson, author of Cryptonomicon
> 
> Author Bio
> 
> Steven Levy is also the author of Hackers and Insanely Great: The Life &
> Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything. He is Newsweek's
> chief technology writer, a former writer for Macworld, and a frequent
> contributor to Wired.
> 
> 




From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se  Sun Jan  7 14:49:10 2001
From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mats O. Bergstrom)
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:49:10 +0100
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20010107233126.00934100@zebra.swip.net>


At 10:06 2001-01-07 -0800, montag montag wrote:
>Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
>pre-paid cell phone

GSM/Europe
1) Buy a cell phone and pay cash
2) Buy a GSM cash-card and pay cash
3) Don´t send in the registration form to get that extra half hour!  :-)

To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards and change
frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not counting the prepaid
calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is sending it's serial
number (but who - except for deep insiders and possibly Lucky Green -
knows for sure?).

//Mob




From bear at sonic.net  Sun Jan  7 21:59:26 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 00:59:26 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>





On the larger purchases, the costs drop down to the forty-cents-a-minute 
range.  Totally worth it if you really *need* anonymity on the phone.  

Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips 
for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by 
a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for 
someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its 
exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.  (I don't 
know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether 
removing the main batteries will stop it).  So if you're into hard 
anonymity, keep it inside a faraday cage when you're not using it and 
don't use it from inside your own dwelling. 

Faraday cages don't have to be fancy; a fruitcake tin will usually do.

					Bear


On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

>But, the rates on the prepaid services are
>exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
>smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
>always, you don't get more than you pay for.
>
>PHM
>
>Andrew Jenks wrote:
>> 
>> In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
>> computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
>> locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and you're
>> done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
>> available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
>> Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> X-Loop: openpgp.net
>> From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
>> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
>> Subject: cell phone anonymity
>> 
>> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
>> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
>> developed
>> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
>> info,
>> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
>> 
>> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
>> UK and the rest of europe.
>> 
>> regards,
>> 
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>-- 
>Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
>PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
>
>





From jbdreads at swbell.net  Mon Jan  8 03:10:18 2001
From: jbdreads at swbell.net (jbdreads at swbell.net)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:10:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Dreadlocks Are Easy to Get!"....The Hard Part Is.......
Message-ID: <200101081110.DAA17411@toad.com>

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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 00:10:55 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:10:55 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell sites
reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
from region to region.

GPS, as you know, relies on the satellite GPS system which requires special
electronics and antenna systems that neither US-based (cdma, tdma, etc.) nor
Europe-based (GSM) nor Japan based cell phone systems incorporate into cell
phones.  The only system which MAY have included GPS (but I don't think they
included it though they could have) was IRIDIUM, which is now used by the US
Navy and US Special Forces units for remote communications...yes IRIDIUM is
still alive and kicking.  Turns out their satellite-to-satellite
communication, which uses direct laser communication, is pretty secure. :)

IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
conversation.  Digital cell phones use padded encryption keys which
effectively dummy down overall encryption.  If you cryptanalyze a
transmission you'll find a nice, consistent pad of zeros in every key (how
thoughtful to make the padding so consistent!)

phillip zakas

-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 12:59 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: cell phone anonymity






On the larger purchases, the costs drop down to the forty-cents-a-minute
range.  Totally worth it if you really *need* anonymity on the phone.

Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips
for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by
a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for
someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its
exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.  (I don't
know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether
removing the main batteries will stop it).  So if you're into hard
anonymity, keep it inside a faraday cage when you're not using it and
don't use it from inside your own dwelling.

Faraday cages don't have to be fancy; a fruitcake tin will usually do.

					Bear


On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

>But, the rates on the prepaid services are
>exorbitant, almost a dollar a minute for the
>smaller recharges and they never do get good.  As
>always, you don't get more than you pay for.
>
>PHM
>
>Andrew Jenks wrote:
>>
>> In the US they are now selling prepaid phones in electronics stores,
>> computer stores, and -- my favorite -- some Blockbuster movie rental
>> locations.  You go in, pick up a box, pay cash at the register, and
you're
>> done.  No information is required at the time of purchase.  Refills
>> available from various retailers depending upon your service company.
>> Again, you walk in, pick one up, pay cash, and leave.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> X-Loop: openpgp.net
>> From: montag montag [mailto:cels451 at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:07 AM
>> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
>> Subject: cell phone anonymity
>>
>> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
>> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
>> developed
>> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
>> info,
>> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
>>
>> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
>> UK and the rest of europe.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
>> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>--
>Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
>PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
>
>







From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Jan  8 03:11:31 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:11:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SEC Investigation into VA Linux IPO
Message-ID: <200101081111.GAA07835@www9.aa.psiweb.com>


It's a "Front Page" article at wsj.com.

There is free 30-day registration for access to the site.




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Mon Jan  8 04:35:36 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:35:36 -0500
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <03fd01c0791b$99751940$0100a8c0@golem> from "Me" at Jan 07, 2001 09:34:29 PM
Message-ID: <200101081235.f08CZMR13000@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


> >    Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked.
> Asscroft,
> > the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his
> ultra-fascist voting
> > record. Gag. Barf.
> 
> Yes, but I bet he will burn very few children to death in a
> church during his first year.


    No, instead he'll probably burn pot smokers at the stake by the 
millions. 

> 
> Nothing short of him raping babies with a ricin dildo while
> banning swear words on the internet as he runs naked through a
> synagogue singing horst wessel could put him below Reno.
> 
     I'm sure he'll be right in there, maybe a trifle different, but on 
the same par. This is the New World Order after all, Reno\Asscroft -- 
Gush\Bore, what's the diff? Your ass will end up a slave either way.


> And what the hell is an ultra-fascist?

    Ummm -- you have a dictionary? He's certainly more fascist than David 
Duke, for instance. Or the average pig on the beat. 
 


-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From dtolbert at g2a.net  Mon Jan  8 07:41:40 2001
From: dtolbert at g2a.net (donald)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 07:41:40 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010108074140.00796650@pop.g2a.net>


send me photo free




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Jan  8 05:17:51 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:17:51 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com> <a05010400b67c26d34f41@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:
> 
 
> I'm now 49, and "car" has been much more common in these United
> States than "automobile"  has been, in my lifetime.
> 
> Further, I often hear Britishisms which are far longer and more
> labored than the American equivalents. For example:
> 
> "articulated lorry" vs. "semi"
> 
> "redundant" vs. "laid-off"
> 
> "Mackintosh" vs. "raincoat"

"redundant" which has a technical legal meaning that is different from
"laid-off" (which we also use).
"artic" & "mac" are both normal (though the second now old-fashioned -
who wears raincoats any more anyway?)

 
> "Pantechnicon" = "moving van"
> 
> (I only learned this last one on a site devoted to Britishisms vs.
> Americanisms.)

Don't believe all you read on the web :-)  I wouldn't have known
"pantechnicon" was a van if you'd asked me. And  we used to think you
didn't have the word "van"  - we thought you always said "truck" or
"pick-up". (Though when I went to Texas my colleagues seemed to use the
word "van" to include passenger vehicles - the large car/small bus sort
of thing that gets sold as a "people mover" over here. For us a "van" is
for carrying things more than people, though plenty of drivers use them
as cars)

Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
for a while)

As you said:

> Fact is, both dialects of English have longer versions of the same 
> basic word than other dialects have.
> Which is preferable is a matter of taste and familiarity.

and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
"Randy" is a name in the US, even if we snigger when we hear it, and any
American spending more than 5 minutes in Britain UK would find out that
a "fag" is a cigarette, so no harm done.

If there is any chance of confusion it is in the connotations of speech
rather than the denotations. "Homely" has the same literal meaning
(home-like, reminiscent of home) on both sides of the Atlantic but in
Britain it is emotionally slightly positive (Tolkien's "Last Homely
House") & in the US very negative,  mostly used as a euphemism for
"ugly". The same applies ot tone of voice.    Brits (& Australians) seem
mostly less sensitive to insult than Americans but more to sarcasm &
irony. So we can sometimes be rude to you & you don't notice - and we
can be friendly and you think we are being rude. And presumably it works
the other way round as well. The society that invented the breakfast
meeting must have developed many exquisite verbal tortures that us
plainspeaking Brits miss out on.

Ken





From segen at gmx.co.uk  Mon Jan  8 00:26:50 2001
From: segen at gmx.co.uk (Segen Tselalu)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:26:50 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Crypto Law in Eastern Europe
References: <4546.978940912@www37.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <24240.978942410@www37.gmx.net>


Subject: DES-3DES Encryption - Legal Restriction

Dear Sir-Madame

I am preparing a VPN solution for a Dessertation, using DES 56 bit
and 3DES 3x56 bit encryption . Therefore I would like to ask you if you
are aware of any local legal issues in the following countries. Please
could
you write beside each country, what the situation is.

> >  > Azherbeidshan
> >  >
> >  > Armenia
> >  >
> >  > Belarus
> >  >
> >  > Bosnia
> >  >
> >  > Bulgaria
> >  >
> >  > Croatia
> >  >
> >  > Czech Republic
> >  >
> >  > Estonia
> >  >
> >  > Georgia
> >  >
> >  > Greece
> >  >
> >  > Hungary
> >  >
> >  > Kazakstan
> >  >
> >  > Kyrgyzstan
> >  >
> >  > Lativa
> >  >
> >  > Lithuania
> >  >
> >  > Macedonia
> >  >
> >  > Poland
> >  >
> >  > Romania
> >  >
> >  > Russia
> >  >
> >  > Slovakia
> >  >
> >  > Turkey
> >  >
> >  > Ukraine
> >  >
> >  > Uzbekistan
> >  >
> >  > Yugoslavia
> >  >
> >  > Thanks in advance, and keep the good work up.
> >  >
> >  > Regards
> >  > Segen


-- 
Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From adam at homeport.org  Mon Jan  8 07:40:37 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:40:37 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010108104448.A15487@weathership.homeport.org>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 12:59:26AM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips 
| for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by 
| a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for 
| someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its 
| exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.  (I don't 
| know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether 
| removing the main batteries will stop it).  So if you're into hard 

There are a couple of location technologies in use.  GPS is not (as
far as I know) actually deployed.  Much more common is triangulation,
generally without the handset's cooperation.  New phones will have
tools in them to help with the triangulation process.  All of these
will work if the phone is switched on.  GSM phones talk to the network 
regularly for call-routing optimization purposes.

The E911 requirements in the US include a requirement for covert 
"authorized" querying of the phone's location.  Doubtless, this
message will be strongly authenticated by a police-only PKI, and your
phone will log it for later audit purposes.

You might want to look at 3GPP TS 22.071 or 23.171, which can be found
off of http://www.3gpp.org/3G_Specs/3G_Specs.htm

Also, I'll point out that it should be possible to combine the RF
fingerprinting techniques being used to combat cloning with
triangulation techniques, and track phones regardless of what crypto
they're using.  You are, after all, carrying around a broadcasting
radio.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From freeflow at themail.com  Sun Jan  7 18:57:03 2001
From: freeflow at themail.com (freeflow at themail.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 10:57:03 +0800
Subject: FREE...VisaCard Pays Up To 10 Levels!!!
Message-ID: <200101080257.KAA29741@smtp23.singnet.com.sg>



Hi,


Wishing you a happy and prosperous 2001!

Take a quick look at the Free Visa Card program.
They're giving away free Visa cards with free flight miles on any airline and paying MLM commissions to refer other Cardholders.
They pay out on a huge 10-level plan ($10 for the first level and $2 on the next nine).

You already know how many millions of dollars that kind of multiplication can generate. Nobody buys a thing. The money comes from the bank because of the value of cardholders. This thing is spreading like wildfire. Please check it out.

Request for info!
mailto:amzin at usa.com?subject=Vinfo pls!

Regards.

.................................................................
**This is a one-time mailing.  There is no need to remove yourself to stop further mailings.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jan  8 08:01:57 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:01:57 -0500
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB1F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.

Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on
just this issue over a post he sent telling us to look
at slashdot. He responded with obscenities, ordering
me to not send him any more private mail.

I took issue with the tone of his letter (most people
PREFER having their nettiquette lapses pointed out
privately), and responded (politely) to that effect. Jim 
evidently felt this was unacceptable, and attempted to
alert my management. I haven't heard from them, and
assume they gave his rant (he included the
corrospondance, with his obscenity laden missive
alternating with my civil language) all the attention it
merited.

Peter Trei

(I'm posting this to the list, as he would seem to
prefer).


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> Reply To: 	Jim Choate
> Sent: 	Sunday, January 07, 2001 10:47 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	CDR: Re: Functional quantum computer?
> 
> 
> Hi Meyer,
> 
> Unfortunately there is no guarantee the URL is stable either.
> 
> The point being you've got the topic and they have a search engine.
> 
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > > http://www.sciencedaily.com
> > 
> > Choate, you're either a complete moron or the most obstinate person I've
> > ever encountered. One would expect sciencedaily.com's website to change
> > daily. Hence the name. Now, when someone reads this message of yours two
> > weeks from now and wants to see what it is that you were talking about,
> > they're not going to be able to find it. Quantum computing will have
> been
> > replaced by stories of monkeys trading sexual favors for food in the
> front
> > page headlines.
> > 
> > "Well, I have to do it this way or Tim will yell at me for posting HTML"
> > you say.
> > 
> > Wrong. Post a direct link. Everyone's happy. You don't look stupid. We
> all
> > win.
> > 
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010105075630.htm
> > 
> > Now, is that so hard?
> > 
> > 
> > - -MW-
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.3
> > Comment: No comment.
> > 
> > iQEVAwUBOliJESsFU3q6vVI9AQETuAf+MFCuR1YIODPVWJT0u9jlUuxga/ICBIXB
> > vOFEXMXfhWGGd1IERVHaUCr5cJFMD2apHJXYDqoWNOwFqUQyQWlk4pNog322kte0
> > pJ9TDJT1Np5xRQB40okyjG1aYzoJ7NFCOdFmEBaTZXfvnKr+ho4npb9gW2MMX5xF
> > e5JY4yn2Ex2im8wQDP2U80oDRW2GOxp10H0bF2cmQYMNt6gJBIa3RCFPVGpNAhuu
> > +t6DfnvhwyU4DTagCwLiD2DR7BwRvr/CF17LR5DAeazWjT98NYHw5XNNKf+a/1S3
> > WpLIQWT8qEb9VJCsdih+dB32twcBz+O5nbWTgwpBOsTb6kC1KvCZZw==
> > =xByv
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> 





From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 08:11:03 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:11:03 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:

>
>Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
>calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell sites
>reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
>good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
>believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
>(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
>from region to region.
>

Hm.  Okay.  I knew there were locators in them, and had assumed that 
they were GPS.  My mistake.  

Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be 
queried for their locations while not in use?


>IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
>conversation. 

Yes indeed.  Privacy is a tougher thing to achieve than anonymity, 
at least with cell phones. 

				Bear








From larsg at trustix.com  Mon Jan  8 02:30:42 2001
From: larsg at trustix.com (Lars Gaarden)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:30:42 +0100
Subject: Crypto Law in Eastern Europe
References: <4546.978940912@www37.gmx.net> <24240.978942410@www37.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3A5996D2.2682BC8E@trustix.com>


Segen Tselalu wrote:
> 
> Subject: DES-3DES Encryption - Legal Restriction
> 
> Dear Sir-Madame
> 
> I am preparing a VPN solution for a Dessertation, using DES 56 bit
> and 3DES 3x56 bit encryption . Therefore I would like to ask you if you
> are aware of any local legal issues in the following countries. Please
> could
> you write beside each country, what the situation is.

The following link should give you the answer to at
least a few of the countries.

http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm#toc

-- 
LarsG




From roy at scytale.com  Mon Jan  8 08:39:06 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:39:06 -0500
Subject: CPS-2 Broken
Message-ID: <000501c07991$569184d0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:17 AM
Subject: CPS-2 Broken


>
>http://slashdot.org


Christ, Choate!  Is it SO bloody hard to do a proper link?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/07/0246252

Note that 15 minutes after you posted this non-pointer, the story had
already slid off the Slashdot front page.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 08:39:50 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:39:50 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


Hi,

I don't believe cell phones can be queried while they're off.  The phone has
to xmit a pulse (to hear a pulse, crank up your PC speakers, turn on your
cell phone and place it within 3 inces of a speaker...you'll hear the
speakers produce static at a regular interval [about every 30 seconds or so
with my startac]).  In an unscientific study, I've placed my cell phone,
turned off, next to the speakers and not heard the familiar pulse.  Also
since you posed the question I ripped open my recently acquired Motorolla
Timeport.  Not seeing any activity in the xmit circuitry when the battery is
plugged in and the power is turned off.  Of course I'm having trouble
putting the case back on the phone correctly but I'll figure that out later
;)

phillip zakas




-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: Ray Dillinger [mailto:bear at sonic.net]
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 11:10 AM
To: Phillip Zakas
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: cell phone anonymity




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:

>
>Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
>calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell
sites
>reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
>good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
>believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
>(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
>from region to region.
>

Hm.  Okay.  I knew there were locators in them, and had assumed that
they were GPS.  My mistake.

Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be
queried for their locations while not in use?


>IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
>conversation.

Yes indeed.  Privacy is a tougher thing to achieve than anonymity,
at least with cell phones.

				Bear









From gbartoo at NYCAP.rr.com  Mon Jan  8 08:45:00 2001
From: gbartoo at NYCAP.rr.com (Gerald Bartoo)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:45:00 -0500
Subject: Echelon
Message-ID: <000a01c07992$58eeb940$f637a118@nycap.rr.com>

This piece about the Norwegian Police being able to monitor cellular phones is only part of the international conspiracy maintaiened by Governments to monitor all communications by those it considers to be subversive under ECHELON type activities.
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Jan  8 04:35:54 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 12:35:54 +0000
Subject: cell phone anonymity
References: <20010107180655.34471.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A59B42A.F5472FAB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Trivial in UK - walk into shop, pick one off shelves, walk to counter,
pay money. They sell them in supermarkets & video rental shops now.  

Last year's most common Christmas present. My Mum and my daughter both
got one. When you open the packet you can start talking within minutes.
The battery even had charge on it. There was bumf asking you to
"register" for which you got 5 pounds "free call time" but nothing to
stop you making calls without registering. 

Ken

montag montag wrote:
> 
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan  8 09:38:47 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:38:47 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <a05010406b67faa1e98b4@[207.111.241.161]>


At 8:17 AM -0500 1/8/01, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
>instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
>Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
>for a while)

The most interesting Britishism to suddenly invade our shores and 
spread rapidly is "gone missing." I'm now hearing this in American 
movies, t.v. shows, and, importantly, television news. "The hunt is 
on for the fugitives in Texas who have gone missing." This is 
definitely new to our shores; I'm surprised (and pleased) at how 
rapidly it has spread.

"At university" and "at hospital" have not become common (though "at 
college" and "at school" are fully equivalent and are common).

>
>As you said:
>
>>  Fact is, both dialects of English have longer versions of the same
>>  basic word than other dialects have.
>>  Which is preferable is a matter of taste and familiarity.
>
>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
>"Randy" is a name in the US, even if we snigger when we hear it, and any
>American spending more than 5 minutes in Britain UK would find out that
>a "fag" is a cigarette, so no harm done.

You must be a bum.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 10:07:03 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:07:03 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 03:10:55AM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <20010108123015.A27769@cluebot.com>




On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 03:10:55AM -0500, Phillip Zakas wrote:
> 
> Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
> calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell sites
> reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
> good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
> believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
> (where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies

For now; future trends include GPS. See an article I wrote below.

-Declan


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40623,00.html

Qualcomm, for instance, said that its gpsONE technology shifts the
choice to whomever is holding the handset. The user has three choices:
a default of always on or always off, the option of deciding every
time the device is used, or choosing which applications will reveal
the information.

The company argues that providing its customers with that flexibility
will give them even more options than they enjoy with landline phones,
which often reveal the subscription address of the person paying for
the service. The gpsONE technology, which uses both GPS technology and
base station triangulation, can locate a user within a diameter of 5
to 15 meters outdoors, and 30 to 60 meters indoors.





From jfoti at nist.gov  Mon Jan  8 10:20:18 2001
From: jfoti at nist.gov (Jim Foti)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 13:20:18 -0500
Subject: Update on NIST crypto standards
Message-ID: <mailman.350.1576007488.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Hello-

Here is a brief update on NIST's crypto standards efforts:

1.  On January 5, 2001, we announced a Draft FIPS for HMAC (Keyed-Hash 
Message Authentication Code) that is a generalization of HMAC as specified 
in Internet RFC 2104 and ANSI X9.71.  A 90-day public comment period ends 
April 5, 2001.  Details are available at <http://www.nist.gov/hmac>.

2.  On January 2, 2001, we posted a white paper that discusses our plans 
for developing standards and recommendations for public key-based key 
management.  This will be a two-part process, involving the development of 
1) a scheme definition document, and 2) a key management guideline.  This 
paper is available at <http://www.nist.gov/kms>.

3.  The Draft FIPS for the AES is anticipated for release for public review 
in the very near future.  Final approvals for the release of this document 
are pending.  When an announcement is made, information on the draft and 
for providing public comments will be available at <http://www.nist.gov/aes>.

Best regards and Happy New Year,

Jim

[This note is being sent to those people who have attended any of NIST's 
AES conferences, the Key Management Standard (KMS) workshop in February 
2000, the Modes of Operation workshop in October 2000, or who have 
expressed other interest in our efforts.  If you would not like to receive 
similar notices in the future (which should be infrequent), please let me 
know, and we will remove you from our email distribution list.]

*******************************************************************
Jim Foti

Computer Security Division
Information Technology Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
100 Bureau Drive, Mail Stop 8930
Gaithersburg, MD  20899-8930
USA

TEL: (301) 975-5237
FAX: (301) 948-1233
jfoti at nist.gov
*******************************************************************



------- End of Forwarded Message



		--Steve Bellovin






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jan  8 10:23:45 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:23:45 -0500 
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB22@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


Experience in Scotland this summer:

Walk into store.
Plunk down 40 pounds + VAT.
Pick up boxed phone.
Walk out.


> ----------
> From: 	montag montag[SMTP:cels451 at yahoo.com]
> Reply To: 	montag montag
> Sent: 	Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:06 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: 	cell phone anonymity
> 
> Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> pre-paid cell phone (aka "mobile" in the less
> developed
> world) without revealing any (correct) identifying
> info,
> such as address, telephone no, name, etc.
> 
> I know that it can be done in Canada. Unsure about US,
> UK and the rest of europe.
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
> 




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 10:24:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:24:40 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010108104448.A15487@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 10:40:37AM -0500
References: <3A591090.4AFE638@ACM.Org> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <20010108104448.A15487@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <20010108123208.B27769@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 10:40:37AM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> The E911 requirements in the US include a requirement for covert 
> "authorized" querying of the phone's location.  Doubtless, this
> message will be strongly authenticated by a police-only PKI, and your
> phone will log it for later audit purposes.

Yes. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,40623,00.html

Probably the biggest push toward including location information came,
ironically enough, from the federal government. In 1996 the Federal
Communications Commission began the lengthy process of requiring
cell-phone companies to build location-broadcasting

The justification: enhanced 911 service, which lets emergency workers
find you when you're on the road.

The FCC required that of all the handsets sold by carriers by December
2001, 25 percent must support location broadcasts, and 100 percent
must by December 2002. By December 2005, 95 percent of all handsets in
use must be able to broadcast location data, tNow that the regulations
are in place -- status reports were due last month -- businesses are
considering what else to do with the features.

-Declan





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan  8 10:44:14 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:44:14 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101072147460.1332-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010408b67fb7fada6a@[207.111.241.161]>


At 12:59 AM -0500 1/8/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On the larger purchases, the costs drop down to the forty-cents-a-minute
>range.  Totally worth it if you really *need* anonymity on the phone. 
>
>Of course, anonymity is relative; these phones have built-in GPS chips
>for 911 calls, and these are activated from the central office, not by

Which of these phones have built-in GPS? Gonna be a real shock to 
Trimble, Magellan, and Garmin that the GPS units they're still 
selling for $100 and up are competing with cellphones given out free 
with new accounts!


GPS is getting cheaper, and may someday appear in even inexpensive 
cellphones, but that day has not yet come.


>a 911-sensing circuit in the handset.  IOW, it is not impossible for
>someone with the right gear and knowhow to query the phone for its
>exact latitude and longitude at any moment when it's in use.

Why do you believe this to be so?

>(I don't
>know whether it can be queried when it's switched off, nor if so whether
>removing the main batteries will stop it).

A backup battery is likely only usable for the local storage of 
temporary parameters, and probably not even that. I don't recall any 
mention with either my Motorola Star-Tac or my current Nokia about 
backup batteries.

Which means that when the main battery pack is removed, the circuitry 
is "OFF." No power to transmit. (And forget passive sensing, as with 
some radio or t.v. tuning coils of old, as that required being very 
close to the coils to detect resonances. And no longer even 
applicable, what with digital tuners.)


>  So if you're into hard
>anonymity, keep it inside a faraday cage when you're not using it and
>don't use it from inside your own dwelling.
>
>Faraday cages don't have to be fancy; a fruitcake tin will usually do.

Removing the battery is easier. Turning the phone off is _probably_ 
(I am convinced of this, but haven't studied it in detail) enough to 
stop any location detection, at least with the current generations of 
cellphones.

(The very long battery life of a turned-off Nokia vs. a turned-on 
Nokia tells us a lot about what it could possibly be transmitting.)

As for Faraday cages, there are easier options that a fruitcake tin. 
Reception is bad enough in mountainous areas  like mine.

Ray, you seem knowledgeable in some areas. But your pontifications on 
California basements, cellphone GPS, etc., are very "Choatean" in 
nature. Something you might want to look at.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From bram at gawth.com  Mon Jan  8 14:03:37 2001
From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:03:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Steven Levy Book Tour
In-Reply-To: <200101072336.SAA31519@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081402240.23016-100000@ultra.gawth.com>


On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John Young wrote:

> "CRYPTO: How the Code Rebels Beat the Government - Saving 
> Privacy in the Digital Age."

Yeah, I can remember back in the days before almost all mail was
encrypted, and when nearly all online transactions were done via credit
card.

Boy am I glad those days are over.

-Bram Cohen

"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                        -- John Maynard Keynes




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 11:14:43 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:14:43 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



This pretty much kiboshes the idea that they might be continuously 
broadcasting; I'm more concerned about the idea that there may be 
some signal they're passively listening for, to which they will 
*respond* with a pulse signalling their location. 

			Bear



On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I don't believe cell phones can be queried while they're off.  The phone has
>to xmit a pulse (to hear a pulse, crank up your PC speakers, turn on your
>cell phone and place it within 3 inces of a speaker...you'll hear the
>speakers produce static at a regular interval [about every 30 seconds or so
>with my startac]).  In an unscientific study, I've placed my cell phone,
>turned off, next to the speakers and not heard the familiar pulse.  Also
>since you posed the question I ripped open my recently acquired Motorolla
>Timeport.  Not seeing any activity in the xmit circuitry when the battery is
>plugged in and the power is turned off.  Of course I'm having trouble
>putting the case back on the phone correctly but I'll figure that out later
>;)
>
>phillip zakas
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>X-Loop: openpgp.net
>From: Ray Dillinger [mailto:bear at sonic.net]
>Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 11:10 AM
>To: Phillip Zakas
>Cc: Multiple recipients of list
>Subject: RE: cell phone anonymity
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip Zakas wrote:
>
>>
>>Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
>>calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell
>sites
>>reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
>>good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
>>believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated areas
>>(where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies
>>from region to region.
>>
>
>Hm.  Okay.  I knew there were locators in them, and had assumed that
>they were GPS.  My mistake.
>
>Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be
>queried for their locations while not in use?
>
>
>>IMHO, the real privacy issue with cell phones is the security of a
>>conversation.
>
>Yes indeed.  Privacy is a tougher thing to achieve than anonymity,
>at least with cell phones.
>
>				Bear
>
>
>
>
>
>





From adam at homeport.org  Mon Jan  8 11:17:45 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:17:45 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDGEBKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101080806390.31751-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010108142146.A17321@weathership.homeport.org>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 11:11:03AM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
| Does anyone know any particulars about whether these phones can be 
| queried for their locations while not in use?

Define use.

If your phone is on, it can be queried for location.  I strongly
recommend reading the fine specifications for this stuff.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Mon Jan  8 15:04:39 2001
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:04:39 -0800
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010108142422.A6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <20010108142422.A6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <p05001903b67ff6074763@[192.168.16.228]>


>Indeed, Motorola has done a good job building their pagers so that they'll
>run a long time on a relatively small battery, because they've got internal
>timers which shut down even the receive circuitry between transmission
>cycles; they wake up every so often to listen for pages, then go back to
>sleep - if they go outside a coverage area, the battery life drops
>substantially because the receive circuitry is active full-time waiting
>to find a familiar signal.
>
>I have no information that this technique has been used in cellphones - or
>will be - but it's already in consumer-grade technology that's been shipping
>in volume for years now. So it's certainly not difficult to build a
>wireless device which remains active on very low power, waiting for a
>signal from its Real Owner to wake up and do something.

The PCS cell phones that I have owned all had this property as well.
When there is no coverage, the battery life drops dramatically.

However, after about 15 minutes of this, the phone goes into "power save"
mode, in which it doesn't listen all the time.
-- 
-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Idio Software   <mailto:mclow at mailhost2.csusm.edu>

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 12:23:57 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:23:57 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20010108123015.A27769@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMECNCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


Thanks for pointing out the article -- love learning new things.  Didn't
realize companies were moving so quickly to GPS.  Not sure how well it would
work in urban areas or buildings (hence I guess the two mode system of
triangulation and GPS in one).

phillip

-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 1:07 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: cell phone anonymity





On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 03:10:55AM -0500, Phillip Zakas wrote:
>
> Just a minor correction to the below posting: cell phone locations are NOT
> calculated using GPS.  They're triangulated via the three nearest cell
sites
> reading the cell phone signal.  Accuracy is much lower than with GPS, but
> good enough for cops to, say, find a stranded motorist on a highway.  I
> believe resolution is somewhere around 40 meters in densely populated
areas
> (where there are many cell phone towers).  This resolution figure varies

For now; future trends include GPS. See an article I wrote below.

-Declan


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40623,00.html

Qualcomm, for instance, said that its gpsONE technology shifts the
choice to whomever is holding the handset. The user has three choices:
a default of always on or always off, the option of deciding every
time the device is used, or choosing which applications will reveal
the information.

The company argues that providing its customers with that flexibility
will give them even more options than they enjoy with landline phones,
which often reveal the subscription address of the person paying for
the service. The gpsONE technology, which uses both GPS technology and
base station triangulation, can locate a user within a diameter of 5
to 15 meters outdoors, and 30 to 60 meters indoors.







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From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Jan  8 12:54:06 2001
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:54:06 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b67faa1e98b4@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10101082027211.78693-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>


[Apologies for continuing this odd thread but ...]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> >Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
> >instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
> >Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
> >for a while)
> 
> The most interesting Britishism to suddenly invade our shores and 
> spread rapidly is "gone missing." I'm now hearing this in American 
> movies, t.v. shows, and, importantly, television news. "The hunt is 
> on for the fugitives in Texas who have gone missing." This is 
> definitely new to our shores; I'm surprised (and pleased) at how 
> rapidly it has spread.
> 
> "At university" and "at hospital" have not become common (though "at 

The more common British term is "in hospital".  I don't recall
ever hearing anyone say "at hospital".

There are innumerable small distinctions in usage .  If you are 
in hospital, you are ill, not a member of the staff.  

Your being ill may the result of an injury.  That is, the same
term covers both sicknesses and injuries.  If you are in hospital
because of a broken back, people will say that you are ill.

If you are sick, on the other hand, it means that you have vomited.

> college" and "at school" are fully equivalent and are common).

They aren't equivalent at all.  In the UK [young] children go to 
"school" and "college" generally refers to something very roughly 
equivalent to either an American senior high school or junior
college.  My company has university students spending a year or
so with us on placement; if you ask them when they are going back
to school, they tend to be offended, thinking you are poking fun at 
them.  Taking the mickey, that is.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015





From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Jan  8 13:02:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:02:38 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <m266jv35hm.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010108125838.007c7100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:17 AM 1/8/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know

The meaning of 'billion' differs by three orders of magnitude 
across the pond.  That's plenty of room for confusion :-) 



 






  








From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Jan  8 13:16:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:16:10 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b67faa1e98b4@[207.111.241.161]>
References: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010108131326.007d67a0@pop.sprynet.com>


>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. 

So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.




 






  








From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan  8 14:18:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:18:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB1F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108161701.25692X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.

By the bitching you and others are making it's not I who has the problem.
I have none (zero, nadah, null, nil).

> Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on

And I told you to stop, you didn't. Don't give me consideration then don't
bitch when you don't get it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





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From: k_quy at IVER.bighits.com (k_quy at IVER.bighits.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:49:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New MILL - time to make money with YOUR PC - cypherpunks! -XIVV
Message-ID: <200101090049.QAA07088@cyberpass.net>


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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Jan  8 13:57:49 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:57:49 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
Message-ID: <3A5A3897.6C5EC6F9@lsil.com>


>>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. 
>
>So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
>her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.
>
That's where technology can help : catch it on video.





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan  8 14:09:49 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:09:49 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
Message-ID: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>


Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew
Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, 
in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on 
January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the 
applicant. 

The agents asked no questions except to verify my identity. 
The principal agent, Mr. Jack, referred me to Special  Agent 
Jeff Gordon for questions if I had any, and presented a note 
with Jeff's name, title, Treasury office, and phone number.
Mr. Jack said they knew nothing about the case and were only 
serving the subpoena. I asked for Mr. McWhirr's name, borrowed
his pen to jot both names -- neither had cards, only badges to
show. Mr. Jack said they were with Treasury Inspector
General for Tax Adminstration (TIGTA), as is Jeff.

The date of the subpoena is December 27, 2000, and was
faxed to New York at 8:36 AM today. 

The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not 
disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a 
disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation."

The subpoena is one page, with two pages of attachments,
one titled "Information for Grand Jury Witnesses," the other
a description of arrangements for reimbursement of
expenses.

The subpoena orders:

  You are commanded to appear and testify before the Grand
  Jury at place, date and time (as given above).

And,

  You are also commanded to bring with you the following
  document(s) or object(s):

  Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
  disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
  in your possession or under your control, including electronically
  stored or computer records, which:

    1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
    Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or

    2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
    or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or

    3. Contain the names, addresses, license plate numbers, or any
    other identifying information involving any Government employees.

  This subpoena shall remain in effect until you are granted leave to
  depart by the court or by an officer acting on behalf of the court.

-----

We'll do a full transcription of the whole shebang to post on Cryptome 
tonight.

Nothing in the subpoena indicates that it is restricted to the current
interstate stalking charges against Jim. Those charges are
not mentioned.

Anybody else who got one of these, or other subpoenas, and 
wants to share send it over. Our fax: 212-787-6102. Delete any 
info you don't want to be public.





From Courses at raven-villages.net  Mon Jan  8 14:16:55 2001
From: Courses at raven-villages.net (webmaster)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:16:55 -0500
Subject: FREE COURSES JUST FOR YOU !!
Message-ID: <200101090432.UAA05099@toad.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jan  8 15:18:24 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:18:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA

The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this about
it:

America's Most Secret Agency

The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic intelligence
information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the director,
Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is watching
you!






From gbroiles at netbox.com  Mon Jan  8 14:24:31 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:24:31 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 02:14:43PM -0500
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081108190.6483-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010108142422.A6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 02:14:43PM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> This pretty much kiboshes the idea that they might be continuously 
> broadcasting; I'm more concerned about the idea that there may be 
> some signal they're passively listening for, to which they will 
> *respond* with a pulse signalling their location. 

Indeed, Motorola has done a good job building their pagers so that they'll
run a long time on a relatively small battery, because they've got internal
timers which shut down even the receive circuitry between transmission
cycles; they wake up every so often to listen for pages, then go back to 
sleep - if they go outside a coverage area, the battery life drops 
substantially because the receive circuitry is active full-time waiting
to find a familiar signal.

I have no information that this technique has been used in cellphones - or
will be - but it's already in consumer-grade technology that's been shipping
in volume for years now. So it's certainly not difficult to build a 
wireless device which remains active on very low power, waiting for a 
signal from its Real Owner to wake up and do something. 

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604





From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 14:31:15 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:31:15 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010108125838.007c7100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081420310.17867-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

>At 08:17 AM 1/8/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
>
>The meaning of 'billion' differs by three orders of magnitude 
>across the pond.  That's plenty of room for confusion :-) 
>

And in the US, "billiards" is a game played with cues and balls 
on a felt-covered slate table.  In the UK, it's also a very large 
number.  Thankfully, so large that that definition rarely comes 
into conversation.  As I understand cross-pond conversions, it 
goes like this....

USA          UK           Scientific
Thousand     Thousand      1E3
Million      Million       1E6
Billion      Milliard      1E9
Trillion     Billion       1E12
Quadrillion  Billiard      1E15
Quintillion  Trillion      1E18
Sextillion   Trilliard     1E21
Septillion   Quadrillion   1E24
Octillion    Quadrilliard  1E27
etc          etc           etc


This silliness seems regular, and has no good reason not to 
extend indefinitely.  But perversely, both dialects use the 
same word for googols and larger quantities.

This is one reason why I tend to just say "screw it" and go to 
scientific notation when writing.  That way it's clear what I 
mean no matter where the reader is from.

				Bear






From jburnes at savvis.net  Mon Jan  8 15:35:09 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:35:09 -0600
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Monday 08 January 2001 16:09, John Young wrote:
>   You are also commanded to bring with you the following
>   document(s) or object(s):
>
>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>   in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>   stored or computer records, which:
>
>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>
>     2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
>     or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or

How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
had not been comprimised?

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From commerce at home.com  Mon Jan  8 15:10:08 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:10:08 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <015801c079c8$256aa4e0$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Young" <jya at pipeline.com>
>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters,
computer
>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other
items
>   in your possession or under your control, including
electronically
>   stored or computer records, which:
>     3. Contain the names, addresses, license plate numbers, or
any
>     other identifying information involving any Government
employees.

Will they pay any transportation (airline) expenses before the
appearance?

If so, I have a large number of old newspapers and phone-books to
give you.





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From cels451 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  8 19:57:15 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:57:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena 
Message-ID: <20010109035715.20514.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com>


>The purpose of the alleged grand jury of my subpoena
is a 
>mystery, but it's surely ham sandwich bait of some
kind. An
>invitation to perjure or self-incriminate.

Look at the bright side - authugrities are afraid.
Using the
only "legal" recourse left - grand jury sub - to
silence and
intimidate is a clear sign of fear. These are good
times. In bad
times a pot joint would be discovered on JYA premises.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: wm5288 at yahoo.com (Wonka)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:00:00 -0600
Subject: Thousands Are Joining-Monthly for FREE
Message-ID: <200101080600.WAA12260@toad.com>



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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan  8 17:09:37 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:09:37 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101090117.UAA15684@barry.mail.mindspring.net>


Jim burnes wrote:

>How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
>that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
>had not been comprimised?

Right. Nor could I know that "Jim Bell" who's was posting to cpunks
is Jim Bell or a Jim Bell being run by London/Gordon et cie.

Remember that a parallel grand jury investigation was announced 
during CJ's trial to spook those who might consider tampering with 
blind justice. Then nothing more was heard of that Robb shot, as 
far as I know.

The purpose of the alleged grand jury of my subpoena is a 
mystery, but it's surely ham sandwich bait of some kind. An
invitation to perjure or self-incriminate.

Jim Bell is, and has been, fed bait since he was released.
Whether he was that before his first bust, that's a reasonable
question. Bell's shit certainly bred to CJ's shafting.

WWA pack believe they've got a winning campaign to keep 
on trucking, using secret agents of persuasion.









From reeza at flex.com  Mon Jan  8 22:55:56 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:55:56 -1000
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108161701.25692X-100000@einstein.ssz.com
 >
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB1F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010108205524.00b00f00@flex.com>


Jimbo's a real piece of work, ain't he?

At 04:18 PM 1/8/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
 >
 >> Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.
 >
 >By the bitching you and others are making it's not I who has the problem.
 >I have none (zero, nadah, null, nil).
 >
 >> Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on
 >
 >And I told you to stop, you didn't. Don't give me consideration then don't
 >bitch when you don't get it.
 >
 >    ____________________________________________________________________
 >
 >           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
 >           smaller group must first understand it.
 >
 >                                           "Stranger Suns"
 >                                           George Zebrowski
 >
 >       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
 >       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
 >       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
 >                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
 >    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jan  8 21:53:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:53:42 -0800
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010409b680564c0cdf@[207.111.241.161]>



(Choate's various lists, like Inferno and Sci-Tech, removed. We got 
rid of Hettinga's massive list profusion, so adding Choate's seems 
ill-advised.)

At 10:57 PM -0500 1/8/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters.

Ah, but we wired golden staters have satellite, which gives us PBS 
East. However, I was enjoying the warm temps in Santa Cruz, though 
nippy after dark, so you are, it turns out, correct.

>A
>definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
>the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
>with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
>ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
>horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
>for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.
>
>-Declan, channeling JYA

--Tim, reading about JYA's subpoena just after reading Levy's account 
of how we won the crypto war. Hmmmhhhh.

(and after having just caught the late afternoon matinee of 
"Traffic," the excellent film about the nonwinning of the War on Some 
Drugs)

BTW, no apparent subpoenas for moi, which is good. Ignoring both CJ 
Parker/Toto and Jim Bell, except for a couple of early responses, 
seems to have insulated me well.
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 19:57:25 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 22:57:25 -0500
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010108171814.25692c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>


Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.

-Declan, channeling JYA



On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> To: cryptography at c2.net
> Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
> 
> The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this about
> it:
> 
> America's Most Secret Agency
> 
> The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic intelligence
> information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the director,
> Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is watching
> you!
> 
> 
> 




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan  8 23:09:50 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:09:50 -0800
Subject: Janet Reno on IP, piracy and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <200101081235.f08CZMR13000@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200101081235.f08CZMR13000@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <p04320409b68068948a0a@[10.1.1.42]>


>>  >    Bet on it? We don't have to do that -- look who he picked.
>>  Asscroft,
>>  > the boob who got beat by a dead man. Check out his
>>  ultra-fascist voting
>>  > record. Gag. Barf.
>>
>>  Yes, but I bet he will burn very few children to death in a
>>  church during his first year.
>
>
>     No, instead he'll probably burn pot smokers at the stake by the
>millions.

	The main difference being that the Church Goers *think* that 
what they are doing is legal, while the pot smokers (for the most 
part) know that what they are doing is either illegal, or legally 
questionable.

	No, smoking pot *shouldn't* be illegal, but it is. If you get 
caught buying, selling, or smoking, it's you're own damn fault.

	I am not aware of any law against joining or attending a church.

	<I have no argument with the rest>
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From dorr at asc.upenn.edu  Mon Jan  8 20:13:21 2001
From: dorr at asc.upenn.edu (Daniel Orr)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:13:21 -0500 
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
Message-ID: <A1F1578A0269D2119C930008C7F48F48010071DD@ASC02>


 
I agree, most of it was like a bad history of cryptography in America. I
wish I had stuck watching Boston Public.

Last year (1999/early 2000) Congress tacked a requirement onto an
appropriations bill which required the NSA to report on Echelon and
monitoring of American citizens. This was shortly after the director plead
attorney client privilege with the NSA's Chief Counsel.

Does anyone know what happened with this report? Were there any sections not
classified?

-----Original Message-----
From: Declan McCullagh
To: Jim Choate
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; The Club Inferno;
austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
Sent: 1/8/01 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)


Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.

-Declan, channeling JYA



On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>
____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> To: cryptography at c2.net
> Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
> 
> The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this
about
> it:
> 
> America's Most Secret Agency
> 
> The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic
intelligence
> information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the
director,
> Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is
watching
> you!
> 
> 
> 




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Jan  8 23:18:19 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:18:19 -0800
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A5A3897.6C5EC6F9@lsil.com>
References: <3A5A3897.6C5EC6F9@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040ab6806ba5426c@[10.1.1.42]>


>>>>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding.
>>
>>So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
>>her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.
>>
>That's where technology can help : catch it on video.

	I think I'm going to be sick...

-- 
Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the 
nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party).
The Ideal we strive for: http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh/bofh/bofh11.html




From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Mon Jan  8 20:59:49 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:59:49 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10101082027211.78693-100000@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>
Message-ID: <B67FF6C6.552%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/8/01 2:54 PM, Jim Dixon at jdd at vbc.net wrote:

> 
> [Apologies for continuing this odd thread but ...]
> 
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:
> 
>>> Anyway - I heard Americans on the TV last week talking about "railway"
>>> instead of "railroad". And "station" instead of "depot" (though Grand
>>> Central Station is I suppose quite old, so you must have had that one
>>> for a while)
>> 
>> The most interesting Britishism to suddenly invade our shores and
>> spread rapidly is "gone missing." I'm now hearing this in American
>> movies, t.v. shows, and, importantly, television news. "The hunt is
>> on for the fugitives in Texas who have gone missing." This is
>> definitely new to our shores; I'm surprised (and pleased) at how
>> rapidly it has spread.
>> 
>> "At university" and "at hospital" have not become common (though "at
> 
> The more common British term is "in hospital".  I don't recall
> ever hearing anyone say "at hospital".
> 
> There are innumerable small distinctions in usage .  If you are
> in hospital, you are ill, not a member of the staff.
> 
> Your being ill may the result of an injury.  That is, the same
> term covers both sicknesses and injuries.  If you are in hospital
> because of a broken back, people will say that you are ill.
> 
> If you are sick, on the other hand, it means that you have vomited.
> 
>> college" and "at school" are fully equivalent and are common).
> 
> They aren't equivalent at all.  In the UK [young] children go to
> "school" and "college" generally refers to something very roughly
> equivalent to either an American senior high school or junior
> college.  My company has university students spending a year or
> so with us on placement; if you ask them when they are going back
> to school, they tend to be offended, thinking you are poking fun at
> them.  Taking the mickey, that is.
> 
> --
> Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
> tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015
> 
> 
> 
Actually, gone missing has been in common usage in my home area for the past
20 years at least.  My home area being southwestern Arkansas.  This may be
the reason that it has shown up on the news broadcasts for the Texas
fugitives.  Maybe it has already been in use in this small, little part of
the country for awhile.

Bryan Green





From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Mon Jan  8 21:22:26 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:22:26 -0500
Subject: Book Review: The secrets of cryptography
Message-ID: <812c65895e71032c648540dd03e36718@mixmaster.shinn.net>


by Joel Enos
January 08, 2001
J
At last, a book about secret codes that isn't boring or too technical! 


As any kid from any era knows, the pinnacle of privacy is the secret code (from decoder rings to James Bond to Harriet the Spy and beyond). So why is it that when most authors write about cryptography (or, as Steven Levy abbreviates it, "crypto") they leave out the fun factor and simply veer off into computer geek-speak about lines of data and whatnot? Who knows? And who cares now that Levy has written the definitive story of crypto so far, keeping all the excitement and drama surrounding the topic intact. 

Levy's latest work (he's also the author of "Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution," which, when it appeared, made the term a permanent part of our Silicon subculture) has a writing style that's a seamless blend of his other lives, chief technology writer for Newsweek (thus a brisk, to-the-point tone), freelance writer for Wired ("Crypto" is speculative and analytical as much as it is informative) and for Macworld (while the book isn't techie, it's obvious Levy is, and, when he has to, he can explain code, and what it takes to crack one, quickly and easily). 


The result is a riveting story that begins with the meeting of Mary Fischer and Whitfield Diffie in the late '70s and moves on to the present-day controversy surrounding the delicate Internet balance of privacy vs. freely available information. 


The story does explain the background you'll need to comprehend what cryptography is (divisions between public and private keys, where they came from, etc.) and why it's important (many of us may not realize we reap its benefits every day, on everything from ATMs to online shopping), but sticks to the human element of the tale rather than simply "the facts." 


In the end, you get a history lesson and a new set of questions to ponder (such as, where is this all going to go?) filtered through the people at the core of the controversy. Levy interviewed basically all the privacy luminaries, from Fischer and Diffie to Phil Zimmerman (head of Pretty Good Privacy). From them, he's managed to create what reads more like a novel than a history book -- and certainly comes off nothing like a computer history book. 


Empowering the people 

For those who want to jump right to the juicy bits, the best section of Crypto is "Crypto Anarchy" focusing on Zimmerman's "hatred of Big Brother" and his drive to "write his own public key encryption program -- for the people" and the subsequent government backlash. 


Levy includes just enough verbatim legislation from the infamous U.S. Senate Bill 266 from 1991 (as worded by then head of the Senate Judiciary Committee Sen. Joseph Biden) to strike fear in the hearts of all encryption nuts and privacy advocates. 


And his portrayal of Zimmerman as the freeware rebel flying around uploading PGP to the Net via a laptop, acoustic coupler and various pay phones is priceless. 


All in all, "Crypto" is a good introduction to a relatively young public policy issue (how private will the government allow us to be with our electronic communications?) that is only now starting to be addressed or even understood.






From bear at sonic.net  Mon Jan  8 21:32:32 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:32:32 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <a05010408b67fb7fada6a@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101082108550.11286-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>Ray, you seem knowledgeable in some areas. But your pontifications on 
>California basements, cellphone GPS, etc., are very "Choatean" in 
>nature. Something you might want to look at.

You can trust anything I say about Math or Programming (especially 
AI and LISP programming -- ie, my job).  A lot of my "rants" in 
fields like architecture, state government, etc, come from situations 
in Kansas, many of which do not apply to California, and I need to 
think twice before speaking once.  Much of the rest (including GPS 
chips in cell phones "within the next couple of years," heard a couple 
of years ago) is gleaned from mainstream media and evidently has its 
share of distortions. 

				Bear

An aside -- Contractors are now building uninsulated homes in Kansas 
(a climate where temperatures range from about 110 fahrenheit to 
-3 fahrenheit over the course of an average year) on floodplains, 
with slab foundations, not even buttressed down to the heave line 
and with no provision for airflow to mediate temperature - and 
people are buying them!  This monumental stupidity was a feature 
of the circus of fools around me for many years, and is still 
where my mind goes by reflex action whenever I hear about electricity 
supply difficulties, power costs and escalating home insurance prices -- 
however irrelevant it may be to the situation in California.  

California, it seems, has its own set of completely different acts 
in the circus of fools, and I'm still learning them....






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Jan  8 21:45:25 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:45:25 -0500
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDMECGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I also watched the program.  Not very exciting.  The Puzzle Palace by James
Bamford, though dated, is probably the best insight I've read.

I've had a few direct experiences with the NSA over the past years because
of my crypto/tech background.  Strangest experiences: getting yelled at by
an NSA mathematician during several odd negotiations at Ft. Meade in '98; as
chief technologist for a large US online company's endeavors to export a
128-bit browser to its intl. users in '98 (worked with both FBI and NSA on
this -- came close to getting the license too); met with former heads of two
nsa groups who hinted interesting observations on Skipjack, intl crypto
products and relative strength of 128 bit crypto; finally, I was actually
trained in NSA's infosec methodology in 2000 (I even have a certificate from
them for passing the classes...the legal disclaimers on the thing are
priceless -- you can check out some of their classes at www.nsa.gov if you
want details).  ...blah blah some other stuff too which is not nearly as
interesting.  No, though I've been to ft. meade several times i've never
seen the "11 acres of super computers" and i've never seen operations rooms,
etc.  though i have seen some pretty boring cinderblocked conf. rooms in the
middle of upper floors where computers aren't networked at all, the doors
are made of steel and the walls emit a strange low hum; one door had a label
which said: "not much of anything, really".  there's lots of humer like that
all around the place...probably to help break the tension of not being able
to talk about what you do all day every day i imagine.

IMHO the NSA staff are overworked and still in search of a clear, cool and
patriotic uber-mission.  fighting drugs and hackers just isn't as sexy as
manipulating russian satellite image transmissions. Plus funding cuts means
they've scaled back on activities which have normally been the role of the
nsa...must be weird to work there where for years you had all the funding
you needed, and now you're losing funding and staff. Recently, for example,
they stopped performing infosec assessments for large US companies (like
Disney in 1997, clearly because mickey mouse is a national critical icon)
because they don't have enough people to perform the work and while NIST is
now responsible for such things, only the NSA has staff trained to do these
assessments (which is one reason I was trained, and no, i don't work for
nist). Now NSA only performs infosec assessments for US critical
infrastructure (mostly military and r&d sites). In fact the whole PDD-63/us
critical infrastructure thing is very big and right now no one other than
NIST/NSA is assumed to have the knowledge to carry out that mission.  Yet
there are seriously something like only 13 NSA staffers performing the
duties/leading red teams, etc.

I got the strong feeling that Red Team and IW efforts are hot topics of
interest at the NSA (and Army, Navy and AF too).  Thanks in part to
successes in manipulating Milosevic-and-friends banking records during the
Yugoslavia conflict, these areas are receiving a lot of attention.  Watch
for huge growth in activities here (in fact you can see some congressional
funding justifications for IW program using China's, Israel's and Russia's
own official IW ops activities).

BTW, has anyone heard of recent moves to push SS7 phone messaging traffic
over the internet in a bid to boost scalability and LNP resolution speeds?
Three effects: it'll work better than the current SS7 network alone;
improved eavesdropping on conversations which touch land lines (fyi only
phone-to-phone cell phone comms like nextel's two-way-radio feature don't
use land lines I believe); decreased need to try to decipher the message
while it's in the air (it's harder to intercept over the air transmissions).

sorry for the long posting, but thought i could share my small glimpse of
their vast activities.

phillip





-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:57 PM
To: Jim Choate
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; The Club Inferno;
austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)



Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.

-Declan, channeling JYA



On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> To: cryptography at c2.net
> Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
>
> The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this about
> it:
>
> America's Most Secret Agency
>
> The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic intelligence
> information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the director,
> Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is watching
> you!
>
>
>





From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 22:22:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:22:54 -0500
Subject: Anonymous Remailers cpunk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1001016230116.30086J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0500
References: <35ef637b5c366a720f012b20c2beb949@remailer.ch> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1001016230116.30086J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010109012254.A4269@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On 17 Oct 2000, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > Pipe the message into GPG and test the output on STDERR.
> > 
> > There was some perl code posted to the list not too long ago which does this.
> 
> So, now everyone has to use GPG. Why? How do you propose to answer the
> increased attacks on the protocol now that you've made it the monopoly?
> 
> I thought the point of anonymous remailers and commen crypto was to
> enhance liberty rather than enforce (coerce) another standard.

.

This is nonsense. GPG would in this situation not have a monopoly any
more (and in fact less) than SMTP or FTP would be.

Many free market economists believe there is no such thing as a
monopoly sans government intervention.  Even if they're wrong, it is
silly to describe protocols not owned by one entity as a
monopoly. (Who has the "monopoly power," for purposes of legal
analysis, for instance?)

The point of anonymous remailers and commonly-used crypto varies
depending on to whom you speak, but there are worse answers than
protecting liberty. And those who defend it know that coercion is done
by someone holding a gun to your head, not by someone suggestion
a protocol on a mailing list.

But of course this is Jim Choate.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Mon Jan  8 22:44:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:44:59 -0500
Subject: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <A1F1578A0269D2119C930008C7F48F48010071DD@ASC02>; from dorr@asc.upenn.edu on Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 11:13:21PM -0500
References: <A1F1578A0269D2119C930008C7F48F48010071DD@ASC02>
Message-ID: <20010109014459.B4269@cluebot.com>


Ah, yes, I remember this. According to one article
(http://208.201.97.5/ref/hottopics/security/background/web-clinton-12-08-99.html) it was in FY2K appropriations, so report was long due.


---
According to language in a report on the bill, the CIA and NSA must
address the following in their report to congress:

The legal standards for interception of communications to or from
U.S. citizens.

The legal standards for intentional targeting of the communications to
or from U.S. citizens.

The legal standards for receipt from non-U.S. sources of information
pertaining to communications to or from U.S. citizens.

The legal standards for dissemination of information acquired through
the interception of the communications to or from U.S. citizens.
---

I recall it was sent to the relevant intel committees around Feb 00.

-Declan






On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 11:13:21PM -0500, Daniel Orr wrote:
>  
> I agree, most of it was like a bad history of cryptography in America. I
> wish I had stuck watching Boston Public.
> 
> Last year (1999/early 2000) Congress tacked a requirement onto an
> appropriations bill which required the NSA to report on Echelon and
> monitoring of American citizens. This was shortly after the director plead
> attorney client privilege with the NSA's Chief Counsel.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened with this report? Were there any sections not
> classified?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Declan McCullagh
> To: Jim Choate
> Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; The Club Inferno;
> austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
> Sent: 1/8/01 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: History Channel television show on NSA (fwd)
> 
> 
> Watched it, ET giving me a 3 hr advantage over you golden staters. A
> definite passover except for last 10 minutes, Echelon-dodging making
> the spooks limber enough to Macarena with Clipper Chip-endorsing Al
> with dispatch. "Trust us," DIRNSA proudly proclaims, with Church bells
> ringing in the near distance. Of note is latest permutation of
> horsemen riding in on backs of Defcon-going hackers as justification
> for existence of The Agency That Shall Not Be Named.
> 
> -Declan, channeling JYA
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 05:18:24PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> > 
> >            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
> >            smaller group must first understand it.
> > 
> >                                            "Stranger Suns"
> >                                            George Zebrowski
> > 
> >        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> >        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> >        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> >                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:38:19 -0500 (EST)
> > From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
> > To: cryptography at c2.net
> > Subject: History Channel television show on NSA
> > 
> > The 'History Channel' cable TV network will air a show about the NSA
> > tomorrow night January 8, at 8 pm Eastern.  Their website says this
> about
> > it:
> > 
> > America's Most Secret Agency
> > 
> > The National Security Agency, America's most secret and controversial
> > agency, is charged with safeguarding the nation's strategic
> intelligence
> > information and decoding the secret communications of our enemies. For
> > only the second time in its nearly 50 year history, the N.S.A. allowed
> > cameras inside its Ft. Meade, Maryland, headquarters, and the
> director,
> > Lt. General Michael V. Hayden, sits for a rare interview and addresses
> > issues such as privacy. Tune in and find out if Big Brother is
> watching
> > you!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 




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From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan  9 01:40:29 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 04:40:29 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: Ray Dillinger's message of "Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:31:15 -0500"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101081420310.17867-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <m2k885awtl.fsf@squack.com>


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> writes:

> On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> >At 08:17 AM 1/8/01 -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding. We know
> >
> >The meaning of 'billion' differs by three orders of magnitude 
> >across the pond.  That's plenty of room for confusion :-) 

No it doesn't 1,000 million is in more common use now.

> And in the US, "billiards" is a game played with cues and balls 
> on a felt-covered slate table.  In the UK, it's also a very large 
> number.  Thankfully, so large that that definition rarely comes 

I have never heard "billiards" used as a number.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    whenever people agree with me i always feel i must be wrong.
        -- oscar wilde





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Jan  9 03:47:56 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:47:56 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
References: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010108131326.007d67a0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3A5AF9ED.53ADB91A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


David Honig wrote:
> 
> >>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding.
> 
> So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
> her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.

You've been listening to those old Max Miller records again, haven't
you?

And they are very old:


"Have you heard about the girl of eighteen who swallowed a pin, but
didn't feel the prick until she was twenty-one?"

"I was walking along this narrow mountain pass - so narrow that nobody
else could pass you, when I saw a beautiful blonde,     with not a
stitch on - yes, not a stitch on, lady. Cor blimey, I didn't know
whether to toss myself off or block her passage."

"Which would you like, the blue book or the white book? You like both
don't you. Listen, I was in Spain four years ago and all the girls wear
little  knives in the top of their stocking. I found that out.........
So I said to myself, I'll find exactly what's the idea in wearing a
knife on the top of the stocking and she said, that's to defend my
honour, I said, what, a little tiny knife like that...... I said that,
if you were in Brighton, you would need a set of carvers!"

et.c et.c et.c

So this woman walks into a pub and asks for a double entendre, and the
barman says "Do you want a large one?"





From davidjel at goingplatinum.com  Tue Jan  9 04:03:48 2001
From: davidjel at goingplatinum.com (davidjel at goingplatinum.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:03:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: An Invitation From David Lamb 
Message-ID: <6178853.979041828320.JavaMail.platweb@atl7mhfl0079>

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From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan  9 08:04:18 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:04:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB26@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

>[Jim: It's ok that you have no problem with
>your ineffective methods of giving pointers
>to articles, but your wasting your own and
>other's time - there's simply no reason for
>people to follow your links, since they are
>generally useless]

Actually, not *entirely* useless.  Usually right after jim 
talks about an article and posts a link that doesn't point 
at it, someone else will post a correct link.  If Jim 
just shut up, some of these stories probably would escape 
our notice.  In the course of correcting his errors, people 
do provide useful information.

			Bear





From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Jan  9 06:14:19 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:14:19 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101091421.JAA11938@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


We've completed transcription of the subpoena and attachments:

   http://cryptome.org/jdb-subpoena.htm

The Information for Grand Jury Witnesses says, 

  "The witness is required to answer all questions asked, 
  except to the extent that a truthful answer to a question 
  would tend to incriminate the witness. A knowingly false 
  answer to any question could be the basis for a prosecution 
  of the witness for perjury. Anything a Grand Jury witness 
  says which tends to incriminate him may be used against 
  him by the Grand Jury, or later used against him in Court."

That's good 5A advice to protect against coercion, intimidation,
squealing, fishing, entrapment, blindsiding, ham sandwiching,
and believing you're saving your ass by disbelieving what the
witness Information threatens:

  "The mere fact that this information accompanies your subpoena
  should not be taken as any indication or suggestion that you
  are under investigation or are likely to be charged with a crime."





From bo.elkjaer at eb.dk  Tue Jan  9 00:27:13 2001
From: bo.elkjaer at eb.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bo_Elkj=E6r?=)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:27:13 +0100 
Subject: GSM encryption. Reduction of algorithm. Interesting doc from GSM 
	Org.
Message-ID: <81485FE4A1E9D111847400805F592CF20347E987@mail.pol.dk>

 <<A5 algorithm key length.rtf>> 
Jørgen Bo Madsen
Fra:	James Moran [james.moran at gsm.org]
Sendt:	3. december 1999 12:02
Til:	Jørgen Erik Bo Madsen
Emne:	A5 algorithm key length

Prioritet:	Høj
Jorgen,

Below you will find the answers to the questions posed in your letter
dated 12th October.

1.	Is the implementation of European GSM encryption algorithm A5/1
reduced in strength to 54 bits?
	The key length of Kc used in the GSM encryption is 64 bits but
10 of the bits are set to 0. Therefore the effective key length is 54 bits.

2.	Is the implementation of the A5/1 encryption algorithm used in
one or more GSM systems in Denmark reduced in strength to 54 bits?
	I can confirm that A5 must be used by all GSM operators and that
all GSM operators in Denmark currently use the standard algorithm which has
the 54 bit effective key length.

3.	Why is the A5/1 algorithm reduced in strength?
	The key length is determined by control regulations that exist
in many countries regarding the use of encryption. As algorithms are treated
as dual use goods, similar to munitions, their movement and use is
regulated and certain countries place a limit on their strength. As GSM was
designed and developed to be used throughout Europe the design of the
algorithm had to take the restrictions of various countries into account.

4.	Who ordered the reduction of the A5 algorithm?
	The algorithm specifications were written by ETSI SAGE and this
group would have decided on the key length.

If you require anything further do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

James

================================================================

This e-mail is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. As this
e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information, if you are not a
named addressee, or the person responsible for delivering the message to the
named addressee, please telephone the Association immediately on the number
below. The contents should not be disclosed to any other person nor copies
taken.

James Moran
Fraud and Security Director
GSM Association Headquarters
Avoca Court, Temple Road, Blackrock, Co. Dublin, IRELAND.
Phone: +353 1 2091827;
Fax: +353 1 2695958
GSM: +353 86 8565124
Email: james.moran at gsm.org  Web: http://www.gsmworld.com/

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan  9 09:42:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:42:07 -0800
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a0501040cb680fcf033b8@[207.111.241.161]>


At 8:04 AM -0800 1/9/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>>[Jim: It's ok that you have no problem with
>>your ineffective methods of giving pointers
>>to articles, but your wasting your own and
>>other's time - there's simply no reason for
>>people to follow your links, since they are
>>generally useless]
>
>Actually, not *entirely* useless.  Usually right after jim
>talks about an article and posts a link that doesn't point
>at it, someone else will post a correct link.  If Jim
>just shut up, some of these stories probably would escape
>our notice.  In the course of correcting his errors, people
>do provide useful information.
>

Your definition of "useful" is different from mine. I believe lists 
like ours should primarily be about discussions and points of view, 
not a third-hand CNET or Register or Slashdot. There are many Web 
sources of breaking news (not that a lot of the "functional quantum 
computer" sorts of stories are usually breaking news...).

Personally, I like it when someone finds a news item, provides a 
detailed URL, even quotes (in ASCII, not MIME!) a paragraph or two, 
and then comments on it and connects it to Cypherpunks issues.

Merely dumping out "general science" items, with general URLs, is 
just plain abusing the list.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Jan  9 07:00:48 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:00:48 -0500 
Subject: Functional quantum computer?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB26@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


He's an existance proof that people can be
intelligent in some areas, yet astoundingly
obtuse in others.

Peter

[Jim: It's ok that you have no problem with
your ineffective methods of giving pointers
to articles, but your wasting your own and
other's time - there's simply no reason for
people to follow your links, since they are
generally useless]

> ----------
> From: 	Reese[SMTP:reeza at flex.com]
> Reply To: 	Reese
> Sent: 	Tuesday, January 09, 2001 1:55 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: 	Re: Functional quantum computer?
> 
> Jimbo's a real piece of work, ain't he?
> 
> At 04:18 PM 1/8/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>  >
>  >On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>  >
>  >> Jim seems to have a real hard time with this concept.
>  >
>  >By the bitching you and others are making it's not I who has the
> problem.
>  >I have none (zero, nadah, null, nil).
>  >
>  >> Last week, I privately mailed him a polite letter on
>  >
>  >And I told you to stop, you didn't. Don't give me consideration then
> don't
>  >bitch when you don't get it.
>  >
>  >    ____________________________________________________________________
>  >
>  >           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>  >           smaller group must first understand it.
>  >
>  >                                           "Stranger Suns"
>  >                                           George Zebrowski
>  >
>  >       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>  >       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>  >       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>  >                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>  >    --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Jan  9 11:07:46 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:07:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IRC FUD: Chapter II
Message-ID: <200101091907.f09J7kD26559@artifact.psychedelic.net>


On the heels of the Efnext debacle, I just read this fascinating 
article in Wired News which purports to explain that Usenet is already
dead, and IRC will be next. 

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,41077,00.html

Methinks some people are just a teensy bit too eager to announce the
demise of certain Anarchistic parts of the Net as a forgone conclusion.

Particularly those parts which are used for Horsemen-related activities, 
and exist in a more supervised and LEA accessible form from providers
like AOL.

I'm not buying.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 08:40:50 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:40:50 -0500
Subject: Review of History Channel's NSA documentary
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114029.02473470@mail.well.com>


[The documentary aired again twice this morning on the History Channel, and 
it's a fair bet it'll show again later this week. --Declan


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41063,00.html

    History Looks at the NSA
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Jan. 9, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON -- As anyone who watched Enemy of the State knows, the
    National Security Agency is a rapacious beast with an appetite for
    data surpassed only by its disregard for Americans' privacy.

    Or is the opposite true, and the ex-No Such Agency staffed by ardent
    civil libertarians?

    To the NSA, of course, its devilish reputation is merely an
    unfortunate Hollywood fiction. Its director, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden,
    has taken every opportunity to say so, most recently on a History
    Channel documentary that aired for the first time Monday evening.

    "It's absolutely critical that (Americans) don't fear the power that
    we have," Hayden said on the show.

    He dismissed concerns about eavesdropping over-eagerness and all but
    said the NSA, far from being one of the most feared agencies, has
    become one of the most handicapped.

    One reason, long cited by agency officials: Encryption. The show's
    producers obligingly included stock footage of Saddam Hussein, saying
    that the dictator-for-life has been spotted chatting on a 900-channel
    encrypted cell phone.

    That's no surprise. The NSA, as Steven Levy documents in his new
    Crypto book (which the documentary overlooks), has spent the last 30
    years trying to suppress data-scrambling technology through export
    regulations, court battles, and even personal threats.

    Instead of exploring that controversial and timely subject that's tied
    to the ongoing debate over privacy online, "America's Most Secret
    Agency" instead spends the bulk of an hour on a history of
    cryptography starting in World War II. Most of the documentary could
    have aired two decades ago, and no critics are interviewed.

    One of the few surprises in the otherwise bland show is the NSA's new
    raison d'etre -- infowar.

    [...] 




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 08:41:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:41:06 -0500
Subject: Review of Steven Levy's "Crypto"
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114101.02473470@mail.well.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41071,00.html

    Crypto: Three Decades in Review
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    8:20 a.m. Jan. 9, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON --It took only a year or two for a pair of computer and
    math geeks to discover modern encryption technology in the 1970s. But
    it's taken three decades for the full story to be told.

    Transforming what is an unavoidably nerdy tale into the stuff of
    passion and politics is not a trivial business, but Steven Levy, the
    author of Crypto, proves himself more than up to the task.

    Crypto (Viking Penguin, $25.95), is Levy's compelling history of the
    personalities behind the development of data encryption, privacy and
    authentication: The mathematicians who thought up the idea, the
    businessmen who tried to sell it to an unsure public and the
    bureaucrats who tried to control it.

    Levy, a Newsweek writer and author of well-received technology
    histories such as Hackers and Insanely Great, begins his book in 1969
    with a profile of Whit Diffie, the tortured, quirky co-discoverer of
    public key cryptography. Other characters soon populate the stage: The
    MIT mathematicians eager to sign documents digitally; Jim Bidzos, the
    Greek-born dealmaker who led RSA Data Security from ruin to success;
    and Phil Zimmermann, the peace-activist-turned-programmer who gave the
    world Pretty Good Privacy.

    Until their contributions, the United States and other countries
    suffered from a virtual crypto-embargo, under which the technology to
    perform secure communications was carefully regulated as a munition
    and used primarily by soldiers and spies.

    But what about privacy and security? "On one side of the battle were
    relative nobodies: computer hackers, academics and wonky civil
    libertarians. On the other were some of the most powerful people in
    the world: spies, generals and even presidents. Guess who won," Levy
    writes.

    (Full disclosure: A few years ago, Levy asked this writer to help him
    research portions of the book. For whatever reason -- perhaps he found
    what he needed elsewhere -- discussions ceased.)

    Throughout Crypto's 356 pages, Levy takes the perspective of the
    outsiders -- and, in some cases, rebels -- who popularized the
    technology. Although he provides ample space for the U.S. government's
    views, he casts the struggle between crypto-buffs and their federal
    adversaries in terms familiar to foes of government control.

    [...]




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Jan  9 08:58:34 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:58:34 -0500
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
In-Reply-To: <3A5AF9ED.53ADB91A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <3A59BDDD.F3CE6BA5@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010109085520.007cdd30@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:45 AM 1/9/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> 
>> >>and there are very few opportunities for real misunderstanding.
>> 
>> So Ken if you read that Blair was near Thatcher's house and knocked
>> her up, Yanks would think something very different from Brits.
>
>You've been listening to those old Max Miller records again, haven't
>you?

No, a british (Birmingham) cell biologist used it in casual conversation
in the early 1990s.  I was struck by the humor of it at the time.




 






  








From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  9 12:11:01 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 12:11:01 
Subject: Anglo-American communications studies
Message-ID: <LAW-F36GWSa1aNEVJpj0000041c@hotmail.com>


Ray Dillinger writes:

>And in the US, "billiards" is a game played with cues and balls on a 
>felt-covered slate table.  In the UK, it's also a very large number.  
>Thankfully, so large that that definition rarely comes into conversation.  
>As I understand cross-pond conversions, it goes like this....
>
>USA          UK           Scientific
>Thousand     Thousand      1E3
>Million      Million       1E6
>Billion      Milliard      1E9
>Trillion     Billion       1E12
>Quadrillion  Billiard      1E15
>Quintillion  Trillion      1E18
>Sextillion   Trilliard     1E21
>Septillion   Quadrillion   1E24
>Octillion    Quadrilliard  1E27

See this table from Merriam-Webster:
    http://www.m-w.com/mw/table/number.htm


- GH

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




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Partner Manager
partners at getyourcasinonow.com
http://www.getyourcasinonow.com


From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan  9 12:33:11 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 12:33:11 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>


>On Monday 08 January 2001 16:09, John Young wrote:
>>   You are also commanded to bring with you the following
>>   document(s) or object(s):
>>
>>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>>   in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>>   stored or computer records, which:
>>
>>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>>
>>     2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
>>     or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>
>How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
>that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
>had not been comprimised?

I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
posted by Jim Bell.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ektarohra at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  8 23:22:58 2001
From: ektarohra at hotmail.com (ektarohra at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:52:58 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <OE24qoOH32s1OmUEyMQ00006674@hotmail.com>

Hi Id like to buy the book 
How To Meet & Win With Women

Please send me the name of the author and publisher - and would like to buy either the cd rom or the book
thanks
ekta
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From bf at mindspring.com  Tue Jan  9 11:26:42 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:26:42 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
Message-ID: <3A5B6559.F1C3C523@mindspring.com>


With all the hoopla over the release of the final version of the Linux
2.4.0 kernel last week, Microsoft Corp.'s delivery of an interim beta
version of its Windows 2000 successor, code-named Whistler, got lost in
the shuffle.

 But according to Whistler testers, Microsoft issued build 2410 of its
next version of Windows on Thursday. New in this build are many
user-interface tweaks, as well as the incorporation of new anti-piracy
code.

...
No more casual copying?
The most potentially controversial addition to Whistler 2410, however,
is anti-piracy code that Microsoft is calling "Microsoft Product
Activation for Windows," (WPA) according to testers. The technology is
similar to the Office Activation Wizard that's part of Office 2000.

WPA will tie a Windows product key to one specific PC in order to reduce
casual copying. In order to "activate" it, a customer will send data
about the installation, such as product ID number and hardware
identifier, to a Microsoft-run license clearinghouse. The clearinghouse
won't allow the use of the customer's product key on a PC different from
the one originally activated.

 Microsoft plans to deliver WPA in all 32-bit versions of Whistler
except those sold to volume-licensing customers and the so-called
"Royalty OEM initial install images" provided to PC makers, said sources
close to the company. Microsoft is expected to add similar anti-piracy
technology to Office 10 and Visual Studio .Net, sources said.

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2672131,00.html





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jan  9 14:44:57 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:44:57 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6813e8d8dd4@[207.111.241.161]>


At 12:33 PM -0800 1/9/01, Bill Stewart wrote:
>  >On Monday 08 January 2001 16:09, John Young wrote:
>  >>   You are also commanded to bring with you the following
>>>    document(s) or object(s):
>>>
>>>    Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>>>    disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>>>    in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>>>    stored or computer records, which:
>>>
>  >>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>  >>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>>>
>>>      2.  Were previously possessed, owned, created, sent by, transported,
>>>      or oftherwise affiliated with James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
>>
>>How would you know if it was sent by him unless it had a digital signature
>>that you are willing to testify in court was know to belong to him and
>>had not been comprimised?
>
>I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
>in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
>posted by Jim Bell.

ven a "From: Jim Bell" doesn't prove anything. Besides knowing this 
from first principles (about spoofing, signatures, etc.), we have 
seen this demonstrated on this very list. Recall that various posters 
were claiming to be "Toto" during the unfolding of that situation.

Recall that Detweiler (presumably) used to issue posts with my name 
attached, with Nick Szabo's name attached, with Eric Hughes' name 
attached, etc.

These points were never tested in the court cases of Bell or Parker.

John Young could quite easily show up in Seattle with _none_ of the 
items the subpoena calls for. If questioned, he could say he had no 
means of knowing if the articles, posts, etc. were in fact from Bell 
or were generated by Infowar cointelpro operatives in law enforcement 
or even by Detweiler or May or whomever.

Also, even if he chooses to comply and grep through his mail archives 
for "any and all documents...mention...discuss....Jim Bell," this 
would presumably turn up many hundreds of such documents. And the 
provenance will be unknown (an ordinary mail spool, or Eudora folder, 
or Outlook Express whatever, etc., being editable and alterable).

John Young (or anyone else) could have edited his mail spool to put 
words into "Bell"'s alleged mail.

I expect this upcoming trial will not be the case which hinges on 
these kinds of issues, but some court will someday have to contend 
with this utter malleability of received mail files. Unlike paper 
letters which can be forensically analyzed, e-mail is nearly 
meaningless.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jan  9 11:58:50 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:58:50 -0500
Subject: DCSB: Ted Byfield; ICANN, Intellectual Property, and Digital
 Commerce
Message-ID: <mailman.351.1576007488.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Note that the Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets
and ties... --RAH]


          The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                         Presents


                        Ted Byfield,
                     Moderator, Nettime
                   (among other things...)

               ICANN, Intellectual Property,
                    and Digital Commerce

                 Tuesday, February 6th, 2000
                         12 - 2 PM
              The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                One Federal Street, Boston, MA




Through an erratic process intended to "lessen the burdens of
government," the Clinton administration transferred governance of the
Internet's essential functions to the Internet Corporation for
Assigned Names and Numbers. In trying to cement its status, ICANN has
sought to transform the net's cooperative structures into a
hierarchical contractual regime geared toward expanding and enforcing
intellectual property claims. The result of ICANN's deviation from
its technical coordination mandate into a captured policy-making
proxy for an absent-minded US government is a centralized namespace
that privileges the demands of late-adopters over innovative
expansions of DNS. This talk will provide a survey of ICANN's
activities to date and how they may advance alternative models and
extensions of DNS as a decentralized, cooperative system that is more
secure and less subject to political whim.


After working for over a decade as decade as an editor focusing on
intellectual and cultural history, Ted Byfield joined the faculty of
Parsons School of Design in New York City, where he teaches about the
social and political aspects of design. In addition to writing and
lecturing about areas where the technical and cultural collide, he is
a member of the rump Boston Working Group, co-moderates the Nettime
mailing list, and serves as an boardmember and advisor for various
New York-area cultural organizations.



This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held
on Tuesday, February 6th, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown
Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The
price for lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental,
A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club
has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning
no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons
in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the
Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code.


We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we
*really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of
Boston", by Saturday, January 3rd, or you won't be on the list for
lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston
will have to be sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The
Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your
e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements
(we've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for
instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can
work something out.


Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

March 6     TBA
April 3     Scott Moskowitz  Watermarking and Bluespike


As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers.
If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a
principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation
to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee,
care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah at shipwright.com>.

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-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at reservoir.com
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at reservoir.com

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From pxiao at Liberate.com  Tue Jan  9 15:42:45 2001
From: pxiao at Liberate.com (Xiao, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:45 -0800 
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
Message-ID: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>


Hi,

I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
(I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

Thanks in advance!!

Peter




From izaac at setec.org  Tue Jan  9 12:42:46 2001
From: izaac at setec.org (Izaac)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:46 -0500
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from Ray Dillinger on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 08:04:18AM -0800
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB26@exna07.securitydynamics.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010109154246.A3015@setec.org>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 08:04:18AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Actually, not *entirely* useless.  Usually right after jim 
> talks about an article and posts a link that doesn't point 
> at it, someone else will post a correct link.  If Jim 
> just shut up, some of these stories probably would escape 
> our notice.  In the course of correcting his errors, people 
> do provide useful information.

Yeah in a: "Gee, if I didn't sideswipe that truck and crash into this
utility pole, I never would have noticed that quarter on the ground!"
sort of way.

-- 
___ ___  .   .  ___
 \    /  |\  |\ \
 _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  9 14:37:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:37:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [alg] gpg with gnome clients (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109163754.446G-101000@einstein.ssz.com>



    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:27:26 -0600
From: geoffrey <monkey at blackhat.net>
Reply-To: alg at austinlug.org
To: alg at austinlug.org
Subject: [alg] gpg with gnome clients

Does anyone know of a good gnome email client ( ala balsa ) which has
strong support for gpg ( as does mutt)? I have some people from the
spoonfed MS world who have discovered the need/use for email crypto, and
they are having a horrible time getting pgp to work completely correctly
with anything: eudora/OE, etc. So, I felt that this might be the perfect
opportunity to wean them from the Redmond teat by showing them how that
job, plus all others they usually perform can be handily done in Linux.
Since they are from the Windows world I thought that I would soften the
transition by using gnome. I can't stand KDE; so, don't suggest kmail.

geoffrey
-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Santa Claus,
the Tooth Fairy,
Windows 2000 ...
Some things you just outgrow.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Key fingerprint ===> B83C C6E1 68F8 CEC9 8636  86B5 1F0E 9D33 E749 1BA6
Public key available upon request.
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From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Jan  9 16:55:41 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:55:41 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:33:11PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:33:11PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
> in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
> posted by Jim Bell.

Remember that the subpoena delivered to JYA is for a grand jury
appearance - not trial testimony (yet). Grand juries are supposed to
protect the accused (in that they're supposed to be an early review
of prosecution evidence) but have been twisted into investigatory 
tools where the production of secret testimony in an unstructured
environment (traditional rules like the rule against hearsay evidence
don't apply to grand jury proceedings) turn out to be very valuable
to the persec, er, prosecution. 

If witness testimony suggests that other evidence of crimes may be
available - say, maybe Witness X describes an email received from 
Person A, or produces a copy of that email - then investigators can
go forth and seek corroborative evidence to support (or replace)
Witness X's testimony at trial, perhaps with search warrants if they
believe the holders of that evidence are not inclined to cooperate
with subpoenas.

And, as Bill alludes above, the rule against hearsay evidence does 
not apply to statements purportedly made by the opposing party
(e.g., the defendant, in a criminal case), so messages allegedly from
Jim Bell are likely to be admitted into evidence - Jim and/or his
attorney will have an opportunity to argue that they should not be
considered reliable evidence, or that if reliable they do not
constitute criminal acts or elements of crime(s) charged. The mere
possibility that evidence might be fabricated or altered will not
keep it out of court, but only provide the basis for an argument
that it should not be trusted. The jury or judge is free to accept
or ignore that argument as their common sense or politics dictate.

The "you can't trust email headers because they might be forged"
argument didn't go far in CJ's trial, and they're not likely to
fare much better elsewhere. The criminal trial system is perfectly 
comfortable with evidence whose theoretical (or actual) perfection
and purity are less than ideal.

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  9 15:11:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:11:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DCSB: Ted Byfield; ICANN, Intellectual Property, and Digital  Commerce (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109171129.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Tue Jan  9 17:18:38 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
Message-ID: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>

As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S.,
Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
By MICHAEL ALLEN 
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


HAMILTON, Bermuda -- Operating out of a hurricane-proof command center in 
a former U.S. military base, Paven Bratch is a tax examiner's nightmare.

Although his Internet company, music and video merchant Playcentric.com 
(www.playcentric.com1), has just 10 employees, didn't go live until September 
and has yet to turn a profit, it has the structure of a major multinational. 
Its computer servers are located here, its operating unit is in Barbados,
 and it has a distribution deal with a big record-store chain in Toronto. 
The 36-year-old Mr. Bratch figures this setup will save him so much on corporate 
income taxes and other expenses that he'll be able to undercut Amazon.com 
Inc.'s prices by more than 45% and still make a bundle.

"One thing that always amazes me is, why would anyone who's planning on 
generating a profit locate themselves in a full-tax jurisdiction?" he says.

'First Generation'

Plenty of dot-coms are asking themselves the same question these days. Undaunted 
by their industry's growing ranks of flameouts and hoping to emerge as one 
of the profitable few, dozens of them are popping up in tax havens around 
the world.

In Bermuda, they range from tiny publisher ISI Publications Ltd., which 
sells hard-to-find business books under the domain name Booksonbiz.com (www.booksonbiz.com2),
 to E*Trade Group Inc., the big online stockbroker, which is locating its 
international trading operations here. Further south, on the Caribbean island 
of Antigua, an American trader has set up Indextrade.com (www.indextrade.com3) 
to allow small investors to bet on swings in market indexes, while in Cyprus,
 a former British jazz singer is doing a brisk business by listing vessels 
such as a Soviet-era submarine on Ships-for-sale.com (www.ships-for-sale.com4).

"These merchants are the first generation who can really domicile anywhere,
" says Andrea Wilson, chief executive of Bermuda-based First Atlantic Commerce 
Ltd. (www.firstatlanticcommerce.com5), which provides credit-card payment 
systems for e-businesses. "They can be a virtual corporation if they choose."

The trend started with Internet gambling companies, which fled to the Caribbean 
to avoid the long arm of U.S. law. But now, thanks to an explosion of new 
telecommunications links to places such as Bermuda and Britain's Channel 
Islands -- and an ambitious push by promoters in such countries as Panama 
to set up facilities capable of hosting hundreds or thousands of Web sites 
each -- more-legitimate Internet companies are starting to make the leap 
offshore.

A Wealth of Ambiguity

There are serious questions about whether some of the structures would pass 
muster with the Internal Revenue Service and its foreign counterparts. But 
many accountants figure there's enough ambiguity in the industrial world's 
offshore tax codes that e-commerce companies could, at least theoretically,
 rack up tax-free profits for years before the authorities sort things out.

The issues are often murkier than for a standard offshore tax shelter, because 
they involve technological innovations that the U.S. Treasury couldn't have 
anticipated when it began laying the ground rules for offshore taxation 
in the 1960s. For instance, nobody's entirely sure how to tax the earnings 
of a programmer who sells his software by allowing buyers to download it 
from a Web site hosted on a computer server in a zero-tax jurisdiction.

Some tax attorneys take the position that the sale takes place where the 
server is located, and that the business owes no corporate or sales tax 
in the buyer's home country. "It would be no different than you or I getting 
on a plane, flying to the Bahamas, and buying a T-shirt in the hotel," says 
Lazaro Mur, a Miami tax attorney.

New telecommunications options have brought Bermuda and much of the Caribbean 
even closer than a plane ride away. Cable & Wireless PLC's phone monopoly 
among former British colonies in the region is breaking up, and C&W's new 
competitors are starting to lace the seabed with modern fiber-optic lines,
 breaking down old technological barriers to working offshore.

At the same time, so-called server farms -- warehouses built to accommodate 
row upon row of computer servers -- are sprouting up to accommodate high-
tech newcomers. At Fort Clayton, a former U.S. military base in Panama, 
local entrepreneurs plan to open a 50,000-square-foot "high-tech hotel" 
later this month they say will be capable of hosting as many as 1.2 million 
Web sites.

HavenCo, a self-proclaimed "data haven," announced plans last year to host 
Web sites from an antiaircraft platform abandoned by the British after World 
War II. The North Sea platform has a colorful history: In 1966, a retired 
British army major seized control of it and has operated it for years as 
the sovereign "Principality of Sealand."

Ryan Lackey, HavenCo's chief technical officer, says the company, which 
spent the summer upgrading electrical power and air conditioning on Sealand,
 has more than 30 servers up and running, connected to the mainland by satellite 
and wireless service, and hopes to expand to as many as 5,000.

He says the company has fielded "several thousand" sales inquiries. "The 
big thing people really want is e-mail servers, because in the past people 
have been getting their e-mail servers subpoenaed," he says. He adds that 
HavenCo would only comply with subpoenas issued by the Court of Sealand. 
"But there's no Court of Sealand, so it's very unlikely."

Tax savings are the big selling point for many of the installations. "Offshore 
+ Ecommerce=Tax Free Heaven," screams a banner ad for Bahamas.net, which 
offers server facilities in the Bahamas for as low as $2,200 a month.

Bermuda, which has a rich history of helping foreigners shave taxes, also 
is doing its best to encourage the migration offshore. Its two biggest banks,
 Bank of Bermuda Ltd. and Bank of N.T. Butterfield & Son Ltd., have launched 
major e-commerce initiatives, establishing systems to allow online merchants 
to bill customers in several major currencies. A common refrain among business 
leaders on this tiny fishhook-shaped island is that Bill Gates would be 
a much-richer man today if he had originally established Microsoft here.

The pitch helped reel in Robert Edwards, an editorial cartoonist who lives 
in Canterbury, England. Not long ago he went looking for help in setting 
up a Web site to sell works by him and about 30 other artists from around 
the world. Tipped off to Bermuda by a visiting delegation of businesspeople,
 he registered his company online through Appleby, Spurling & Kempe, a local 
law firm here, and was quickly directed to Web designers, a hosting site 
and a credit-card intermediary, First Atlantic.

Late last year, at a total cost of less than $200,000, his Drawnandquartered.com 
(www.drawnandquartered.com6) went live, offering 4,000 artworks, which can 
be downloaded online with a credit card, for $200 and up. His company doesn't 
pay any income or sales taxes, and he only has to pay personal-income tax 
on the salary he draws. "I'm a perfect example of how it can be done," he 
says.

Playcentric's Mr. Bratch, a former Procter & Gamble Co. manager, says he 
relied on advice from an international tax attorney in structuring the online 
retailer, which will market its compact disks, videos and DVDs partly through 
packaged-goods makers who want to reward loyal customers. Mr. Bratch, a 
Canadian citizen, put his operating unit in Barbados, which, unlike Bermuda,
 has a tax treaty with Canada, in order to take advantage of the Caribbean 
nation's corporate income-tax rate of just 2%.

He says he located his computer operations in Bermuda because of its extensive 
banking and telecommunications infrastructure. Its attractions include a 
state-of-the-art server facility built in an old U.S. naval base by 360networks 
Inc.'s TeleBermuda International unit, which laid an undersea fiber-optic 
cable to the U.S. in 1997.

Tax considerations also helped lure Todd Middagh, chief executive of Originals 
Online Ltd., to Bermuda. His brainchild: a site that will allow importers,
 exporters and shipping companies to swap legally binding trade documents 
online, instead of wasting days with couriers. "It's a digital product, 
global in nature, 24-hours-a-day world-wide," says Mr. Middagh, who has 
already attracted the interest of several major grain companies, including 
Archer Daniels Midland Co.

"We're going to be in almost every jurisdiction over time," he says. Meanwhile,
 Mr. Middagh, a native of Canada, will be presiding over the company from 
his house here, which overlooks the Atlantic Ocean.

Scott Rubman, a Long Island, N.Y., real-estate attorney whose family has 
long been in the fur trade, is putting together Furs.com (www.furs.com7),
 a Bermuda-based site that plans to match mink farmers in, say, Norway, 
with fur-coat manufacturers in North America and China. As an American, 
Mr. Rubman may face a bigger hurdle in shielding any offshore profits from 
taxation. Unlike many other countries, the U.S. taxes its citizens on their 
income world-wide.

"If you move offshore strictly to evade taxes, that's something the U.S. 
will always look at," says Mr. Rubman, who is getting plenty of advice from 
U.S. tax experts. "When you have a legitimate business purpose to transact 
business offshore, I'd think the U.S. would be supportive of that."

And if the U.S. isn't supportive? Cryptographer Vince Cate thinks he has 
that covered. In 1998, the onetime Carnegie-Mellon University Ph.D candidate 
walked into the U.S. Embassy in Barbados and renounced his American citizenship,
 declaring that he was henceforth a citizen of Mozambique, thanks to a document 
he purchased for $5,000 over the Internet.

Then, he went back to the Caribbean island of Anguilla, where he had developed 
a reputation as a computer-encryption visionary. Among his many ventures,
 he has taken over the operations of an online marketer of driver's-license 
information that had run afoul of a new privacy law in Texas. Mr. Cate plans 
to build the business without paying a cent of taxes.

"Because I'm not a U.S. citizen, I'm not in the United States, and Anguilla 
has no taxes, I don't believe I have any problem," he says.

Write to Michael Allen at mike.allen at wsj.com8


From bear at sonic.net  Tue Jan  9 14:23:26 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:23:26 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <3A5B6559.F1C3C523@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

> But according to Whistler testers, Microsoft issued build 2410 of its
>next version of Windows on Thursday. New in this build are many
>user-interface tweaks, as well as the incorporation of new anti-piracy
>code.

>...
>No more casual copying?
>The most potentially controversial addition to Whistler 2410, however,
>is anti-piracy code that Microsoft is calling "Microsoft Product
>Activation for Windows," 


Until now it has been easy for people to be hypocritical about 
software piracy - to claim they're not doing it and don't support 
it when in fact a fair number of their IT procedures would not be 
possible if it were not done, at least in some small and usually 
transient ways. Did anybody else temporarily create a "pirate" 
installation of Windows NT 3.51 when they discovered that the 
installer for NT 4.0 beta refused to delete the primary partition 
and they needed to repartition their hard drives? It lasted twenty 
minutes, but since for that twenty minutes it was on more than just 
the original machine, it was a violation of EULA.

But if Microsoft and its ilk do in fact successfully create systems 
that prevent "piracy", it won't be possible to be a hypocrite about 
it any more.  And with commercial software flatly refusing some 
kinds of use, perhaps a fair number of people who now *think* they 
are not doing any piracy will have to face some harsh facts. 

Perhaps they will eventually realize that the way to avoid piracy 
without sacrificing usability is to use open-source free software. 
We can hope so anyway. 

In that scenario, this anti-piracy stuff could be one of the nails 
in Microsoft's coffin. 

				Bear





From ericm at lne.com  Tue Jan  9 17:38:01 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:38:01 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@netbox.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 04:55:41PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com> <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20010109173801.E31672@slack.lne.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 04:55:41PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

> ... messages allegedly from
> Jim Bell are likely to be admitted into evidence - Jim and/or his
> attorney will have an opportunity to argue that they should not be
> considered reliable evidence, or that if reliable they do not
> constitute criminal acts or elements of crime(s) charged. The mere
> possibility that evidence might be fabricated or altered will not
> keep it out of court, but only provide the basis for an argument
> that it should not be trusted. The jury or judge is free to accept
> or ignore that argument as their common sense or politics dictate.


I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that, unless there is a very compelling
argument from expert witness which "proves" to the judge or jury that
the emails in a particular case are forged, emails would be accepted in
pretty much any (US) court.  I beleive that's how written evidence is
treated now, even though handwriting and signatures can be forged.  If a
handwriting expert is brought in and "proves" that there's a forgery, the
evidence is thrown out or the judge or jury disregard it as appropriate.

In this regard, security experts will be the handwriting experts of
the future.

(Greg, have there been any cases where email evidence has been shown
in a court to be forged?  Has this even been attempted, other than
Bell's case?)


-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Tue Jan  9 14:58:40 2001
From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:58:40 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <p05010411b6814701f590@[141.142.22.21]>


At 5:23 PM -0500 1/9/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>But if Microsoft and its ilk do in fact successfully create systems
>that prevent "piracy", it won't be possible to be a hypocrite about
>it any more.  And with commercial software flatly refusing some
>kinds of use, perhaps a fair number of people who now *think* they
>are not doing any piracy will have to face some harsh facts.

Or you can realize that you were exercising "fair use" and the software
companies are now going to use technical means to prevent you from
exercising your right on copyrighted works.

It will only me a matter of time before some hacker provides the necessary
tools to exercise our "fair use" right again.

-- 


Matt Elliott			High Performance Data Management Team
217-265-0257			<mailto:melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu>





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jan  9 16:15:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:15:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Update on NIST crypto standards (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109181456.446W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:18:15 -0500
From: Steve Bellovin <smb at research.att.com>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: Update on NIST crypto standards (fwd)

Forwarded with permission.  There is also going to be an announcement 
on modes of operation; http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/tkmodes.html 
should have the information within the next month or thereabouts.


------- Forwarded Message



From jrichard at cubicle.net  Tue Jan  9 18:20:36 2001
From: jrichard at cubicle.net (Josh Richards)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:20:36 -0800
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>; from pxiao@Liberate.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <20010109182036.B12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>

* Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
> 
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?  
It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't 
just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting
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From jrichard at cubicle.net  Tue Jan  9 18:34:50 2001
From: jrichard at cubicle.net (Josh Richards)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:34:50 -0800
Subject: SS7 over the Net (was Re: History Channel television show on NSA)
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDMECGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:45:25AM -0500
References: <20010108225725.A2407@cluebot.com> <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDMECGCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <20010109183450.C12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>

* Phillip Zakas <pzakas at toucancapital.com> [20010108 21:51]:
[..]
> BTW, has anyone heard of recent moves to push SS7 phone messaging traffic
> over the internet in a bid to boost scalability and LNP resolution speeds?

There are already carriers doing SS7 over IP via gateways.  Over the public
Internet is not a stretch from a technical standpoint but, in practice, 
I'd find it hard to believe too many LECs or IXCs going this route.  Private
IP networks, yes already in production even.  The public IP network, nobody 
serious is doing it.  Wait, well, if you just mean VoIP there are VoIP 
companies that are attempting things like this by partnering with regional 
and local ISPs to place voice gateways.  If you're talking governmental 
moves, there are easier ways.  The SS7 network isn't exactly encrypted.. 

> Three effects: it'll work better than the current SS7 network alone;
> improved eavesdropping on conversations which touch land lines (fyi only
> phone-to-phone cell phone comms like nextel's two-way-radio feature don't
> use land lines I believe); decreased need to try to decipher the message
> while it's in the air (it's harder to intercept over the air transmissions).

How does this improve eavesdropping?  SS7 is only signaling.  There is no
voice payload on the SS7 network.  SS7 simply passes signaling information
around.  Perhaps the knowledge of calling and called party since those
digits are passed via SS7 but the converstation is entirely distinct.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting
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From pxiao at Liberate.com  Tue Jan  9 19:12:43 2001
From: pxiao at Liberate.com (Xiao, Peter)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:12:43 -0800 
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
Message-ID: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F7@usscmail1.liberate.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Richards [mailto:jrichard at cubicle.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:21 PM
To: coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto implementation for small footprint devices


* Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
> 
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?  
It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't 
just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.

The device is a DCT2000 set-top box with very limited footprint. Since the
box needs to run a lot of other applications, 50K is the space that we would
like to spend on the security purpose. The platform supports C interface.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan  9 18:07:24 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:07:24 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDEEDACAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


what kind of platform? are you counting on an internal processor, or are you
just storing a key to be acted on via a second device?  need more info.
pz

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Xiao, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:43 PM
To: 'coderpunks at toad.com'; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices



Hi,

I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
(I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

Thanks in advance!!

Peter





From jrichard at cubicle.net  Tue Jan  9 18:17:04 2001
From: jrichard at cubicle.net (Josh Richards)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:17:04 -0500
Subject: circus of fools (Re: cell phone anonymity)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101082108550.11286-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:32:32AM -0500
References: <a05010408b67fb7fada6a@[207.111.241.161]> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101082108550.11286-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010109181543.A12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>

* Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> [20010108 21:40]:
[..]
> ...  This monumental stupidity was a feature 
> of the circus of fools around me for many years, and is still 
> where my mind goes by reflex action whenever I hear about electricity 
> supply difficulties, power costs and escalating home insurance prices -- 
> however irrelevant it may be to the situation in California.  

Don't worry -- electricity supply difficulties are a problem here in 
sunny-but-raining-today California too.   In fact, it's a *big* PITA at the
moment here.  Super big.

> California, it seems, has its own set of completely different acts 
> in the circus of fools, and I'm still learning them....

They are not completely different.  Sure, there are some unique ones but 
there is plenty of overlap. :)  

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting
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From justinel at ms14.hinet.net  Tue Jan  9 05:47:06 2001
From: justinel at ms14.hinet.net (Sencera)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 21:47:06 +0800
Subject: offer sensor elements for .....
Message-ID: <200101091344.FAA13131@toad.com>


Dear sir,

We are the Manufacture of follow sensor elements:
- Own patent's shock sensor element for car alarm and lock.
- Own patent's tilt switch and sensor element. (instead of Mercury type)
- Shock detector model 201C type, for car alarm with VR sensitive adjust
- Shock detector model VB type, for security use such as window shock
 detecting.
- Ultrasonic transducer 40KHz for car security use.
- High power ultrasonic transducer from 28KHz to 1.0MHz for ultrasonic
  machine use.
-Air pollution sensor element
-Alcohol sensor element 
-Atmospheric pressure sensor element  
-Carbonate monoxide sensor element  
-LPG and Nature Gas sensor element  
-Capacitive humidity sensor element  
-Smoke sensor element  
-Temperature sensor element 
 measurement range from -40 C to +300 C, resolution:1%, 3%, 5%

Products design, OEM are available.

Any interesting, please contact
Sencera Co., Ltd.
Mr. Justine Lee
http://welcome.to/sencera
justinel at ms14.hinet.net
Fax:886-2-27041279
Tel:886-2-27046595
Thanks




From no1club at tds.net  Tue Jan  9 18:49:34 2001
From: no1club at tds.net (Rob)
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 21:49:34 -0500
Subject: Work from Home! Minimum Income Guarantee!
Message-ID: <200101100253.UAA00998@serak.svc.tds.net>


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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan  9 19:25:27 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:25:27 -0500
Subject: SS7 over the Net (was Re: History Channel television show on NSA)
In-Reply-To: <20010109183450.C12329@datahaven.freedom.gen.ca.us>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDOEDDCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Using SS7 one can redefine routes, gather number translation info via
Signalling Control Points (SCPs), etc. Rather than repeat boring details,
check out:

http://support.dialogic.com/ss7/SS7tutorial/tutorial.html

The link is a brief tutorial on SS7; it'll make possibilities more obvious.
What's the danger of SS7 over IP?  Lack of security features at gateways and
at the protocol level.
pz

>>>
How does this improve eavesdropping?  SS7 is only signaling.  There is no
voice payload on the SS7 network.  SS7 simply passes signaling information
around.  Perhaps the knowledge of calling and called party since those
digits are passed via SS7 but the converstation is entirely distinct.

-jr

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Josh Richards
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 9:35 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: SS7 over the Net (was Re: History Channel television show on
NSA)


* Phillip Zakas <pzakas at toucancapital.com> [20010108 21:51]:
[..]
> BTW, has anyone heard of recent moves to push SS7 phone messaging traffic
> over the internet in a bid to boost scalability and LNP resolution speeds?

There are already carriers doing SS7 over IP via gateways.  Over the public
Internet is not a stretch from a technical standpoint but, in practice,
I'd find it hard to believe too many LECs or IXCs going this route.  Private
IP networks, yes already in production even.  The public IP network, nobody
serious is doing it.  Wait, well, if you just mean VoIP there are VoIP
companies that are attempting things like this by partnering with regional
and local ISPs to place voice gateways.  If you're talking governmental
moves, there are easier ways.  The SS7 network isn't exactly encrypted..

> Three effects: it'll work better than the current SS7 network alone;
> improved eavesdropping on conversations which touch land lines (fyi only
> phone-to-phone cell phone comms like nextel's two-way-radio feature don't
> use land lines I believe); decreased need to try to decipher the message
> while it's in the air (it's harder to intercept over the air
transmissions).

How does this improve eavesdropping?  SS7 is only signaling.  There is no
voice payload on the SS7 network.  SS7 simply passes signaling information
around.  Perhaps the knowledge of calling and called party since those
digits are passed via SS7 but the converstation is entirely distinct.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Tue Jan  9 22:31:46 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:31:46 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <20010109173801.E31672@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 05:38:01PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com> <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010109173801.E31672@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20010109223145.E6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 05:38:01PM -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that, unless there is a very compelling
> argument from expert witness which "proves" to the judge or jury that
> the emails in a particular case are forged, emails would be accepted in
> pretty much any (US) court.  I beleive that's how written evidence is
> treated now, even though handwriting and signatures can be forged.  If a
> handwriting expert is brought in and "proves" that there's a forgery, the
> evidence is thrown out or the judge or jury disregard it as appropriate.

I think this is right on. It's important to remember that evidence
(especially scientific or technical evidence) is subject to a two-step
vetting process - there's initial review by the judge, who must be
convinced that the evidence is potentially reliable and relevant; and
then the judge or jury must decide that they want to believe the 
evidence after it's been admitted. There's plenty of evidence which is
both admissible (and admitted) yet ignored by juries. 

> (Greg, have there been any cases where email evidence has been shown
> in a court to be forged?  Has this even been attempted, other than
> Bell's case?)

I don't have an appellate case or a cite at hand immediately - I do know
that there was a case here in Silicon Valley where an ex-employee and
ex-girlfriend of Larry Ellison (CEO of Oracle) falsified an email which
purported to prove that she was the victim of sexual harassment at
Oracle - she lost her lawsuit against Oracle and was subsequently
convicted of perjury. (See 4 J. Tech Law & Policy 1 at para 31;
<http://journal.law.ufl.edu/~techlaw/4/Dixon.html> or a Seattle 
Times article at
<http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/html98/love_092798.html>).

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Jan  9 19:53:30 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip Zakas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:53:30 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F7@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDKEDECAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


I know RSA B-Safe stuff is made to fit onto cell phones and pagers.  They
also are the public key vendor for DOCSIS cable boxes.  Maybe they can help
you.  www.rsa.com

pz


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Xiao, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:13 PM
To: 'Josh Richards'; coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: RE: crypto implementation for small footprint devices





-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Richards [mailto:jrichard at cubicle.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:21 PM
To: coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto implementation for small footprint devices


* Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
>
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.

How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?
It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't
just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.

The device is a DCT2000 set-top box with very limited footprint. Since the
box needs to run a lot of other applications, 50K is the space that we would
like to spend on the security purpose. The platform supports C interface.

-jr

----
Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
<jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
IP Network Engineering and Consulting





From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan  9 23:15:55 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:15:55 -0800
Subject: Review of History Channel's NSA documentary
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114029.02473470@mail.well.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109114029.02473470@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040ab681bc505bc4@[10.1.1.42]>


Declan:
>    "It's absolutely critical that (Americans) don't fear the power that
>    we have," Hayden said on the show.

	Of course it's critical. If "we" don't fear it, we won't do 
anything to reign it in.

	If we do fear it, then they have to step carefully. From 
Hayden's perspective, it is critical that we don't fear it.

	I believe that it is critical that we do.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Jan  9 23:20:05 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:20:05 -0800
Subject: [alg] gpg with gnome clients (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109163754.446G-101000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010109163754.446G-101000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040bb681bd8ba609@[10.1.1.42]>


>Attachment converted: 9main:CDR- [alg] gpg with gnome clien 
>(MiME/CSOm) (00039B4A)

	The camel's back has just broken.


-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 22:29:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:29:54 -0500
Subject: Book Review: The secrets of cryptography
In-Reply-To: <812c65895e71032c648540dd03e36718@mixmaster.shinn.net>; from anmetet@mixmaster.shinn.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:22:26AM -0500
References: <812c65895e71032c648540dd03e36718@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <20010110015723.B19147@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:22:26AM -0500, An Metet wrote:
> by Joel Enos
> January 08, 2001
> Ê
> At last, a book about secret codes that isn't boring or too technical! 

And a book review that isn't accurate...


> In the end, you get a history lesson and a new set of questions to
ponder (such as, where is this all going to go?) filtered through the
people at the core of the controversy. Levy interviewed basically all
the privacy luminaries, from Fischer and Diffie to Phil Zimmerman
(head of Pretty Good Privacy). From them, he's managed to create what


With all due respect to Whit's very gracious and wonderful wife, I'm
not sure I'd call her a privacy luminary. Nor would I say Phil is head
of PGP.


> And his portrayal of Zimmerman as the freeware rebel flying around
uploading PGP to the Net via a laptop, acoustic coupler and various
pay phones is priceless.

This is not what Levy wrote.

-Declan





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jan  9 22:43:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:43:28 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101091350500.22051-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3A5B6559.F1C3C523@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010109214716.00b17af0@idiom.com>


>>No more casual copying?
>>The most potentially controversial addition to Whistler 2410, however,
>>is anti-piracy code that Microsoft is calling "Microsoft Product
>>Activation for Windows," 

Copy protection is annoying when you have only one machine.
It's much more annoying in the commercially interesting case,
which is when you have many machines and are
copying things legitimately.

I've got a lab with half a dozen year-old El Cheapo PCs
and half a dozen Genuine Antique AT&T Pentium 90s.
Then there's the stack of old-beater laptops,
which are very nice machines to put in a rack of routers
when you just want a Ping/FTP/Web target.

The El Cheapo PCs each came with a licensed Win98;
I've got the disks in a stack, and keeping track of which 
CD goes with which PC would be a serious annoyance.
It's actually worse, because the PCs are pieces of junk
that need to be have major chunks of Windows reloaded
every once in a while, though at least Win98 has less of the
"you have moved your mouse, please put in the Windows CD and reboot"
that Win95 had.  It's annoying enough to keep track of
which Win98 serial numbers go with which CDROMs -
writing the number on the CDROM helps, but you can't
read it when it's in the drive :-)

The P90s were covered by a site license; I never had
individual media for them (and most of them don't have CD players,
which makes the "Please put the Win95 CD in the drive" more annoying.)
The copy of Win95 I've got on CDROM was from somewhere else.
Many of them are happily running Linux now.  
N of them hang out on a DSL connection for doing firewall testing,
and they're named "Kenny" because they're targets for kiddies,
and it's nice not to mess with copy protection when I
reload the OS.

Some of the laptops still have their CDROMs; some don't,
and the ones that do often have funky drivers.
That's why they're still running Windows....
at least they don't crash very often, though you still
have to reboot them if you change static IP addresses.

And I paid cash money to upgrade the home machine to 
Win98 Second Edition specifically to get 
Internet Connection Service, which didn't work as promised
and trashed the DLLs used by several other commercial products
in ways that uninstalling didn't fix.
Will I feel guilty if I install WinME on two or three boxes?
(Skeptical, yes, but guilty?  No.)



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 22:47:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:47:34 -0500
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6813e8d8dd4@[207.111.241.161]>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 02:44:57PM -0800
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com> <a05010400b6813e8d8dd4@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <20010110014734.A19147@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 02:44:57PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> I expect this upcoming trial will not be the case which hinges on 
> these kinds of issues, but some court will someday have to contend 
> with this utter malleability of received mail files. Unlike paper 
> letters which can be forensically analyzed, e-mail is nearly 
> meaningless.

Yes and no. Courts have figured out long ago how to deal with
malleable computer files, of which email is a special case. And notes
allegedly taken during a telephone call or meeting (which were
important during the MS antitrust trial) are equally malleable.

What the prosecution here is interested in is chain of custody, did
you receive this message, can you verify that Exhibit A is what you
received from someone at somewhere.com, etc. with perjury as a
deterrent. Then they can use phone records to show a defendant was
online then via a dialup connection...

It strikes me that this is a sort of link padding: If you're online
all the time, those phone records will be virtually useless.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Jan  9 23:00:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:00:23 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDKEDECAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>; from pzakas@toucancapital.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 10:53:30PM -0500
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F7@usscmail1.liberate.com> <NGEPLIIHJPINEBAPHJDDKEDECAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <20010110020023.C19147@cluebot.com>

It also might be worth checking out the elliptic curve apps that run
on Palm OS. --Declan


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 10:53:30PM -0500, Phillip Zakas wrote:
> 
> I know RSA B-Safe stuff is made to fit onto cell phones and pagers.  They
> also are the public key vendor for DOCSIS cable boxes.  Maybe they can help
> you.  www.rsa.com
> 
> pz
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Xiao, Peter
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:13 PM
> To: 'Josh Richards'; coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: RE: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Richards [mailto:jrichard at cubicle.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:21 PM
> To: coderpunks at toad.com; cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Re: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
> 
> 
> * Xiao, Peter <pxiao at Liberate.com> [20010109 16:01]:
> >
> > I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> > footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> > protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> > within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> > alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> > about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> > smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> > (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> > the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> > anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> 
> How small of footprint?  50K (presuming you mean in currency) isn't really
> a measurement of footprint size to me. :)  Would something along the lines
> of a Java iButton <URL:http://www.ibutton.com/> match your requirements?
> It truly depends on what you need the device to be capable of...and I don't
> just mean the crypto implementation but is this a device to be self-powered?
> How do you need to interface with it?  Etc.
> 
> The device is a DCT2000 set-top box with very limited footprint. Since the
> box needs to run a lot of other applications, 50K is the space that we would
> like to spend on the security purpose. The platform supports C interface.
> 
> -jr
> 
> ----
> Josh Richards [JTR38/JR539-ARIN]
> <jrichard at geekresearch.com/cubicle.net/fix.net/freedom.gen.ca.us>
> Geek Research LLC - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/>
> IP Network Engineering and Consulting
> 
> 




From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Jan  9 23:19:04 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 02:19:04 -0500
Subject: MS Product Activation for Windows (licensing)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010109214716.00b17af0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101092320070.14572-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> The El Cheapo PCs each came with a licensed Win98;
> I've got the disks in a stack, and keeping track of which 
> CD goes with which PC would be a serious annoyance.
> It's actually worse, because the PCs are pieces of junk
> that need to be have major chunks of Windows reloaded
> every once in a while, though at least Win98 has less of the
> "you have moved your mouse, please put in the Windows CD and reboot"
> that Win95 had.  It's annoying enough to keep track of
> which Win98 serial numbers go with which CDROMs -
> writing the number on the CDROM helps, but you can't
> read it when it's in the drive :-)

Whenever I install a copy of Windows (rare these days), I always copy the
install files to the hard drive.  The reason for this is that half the
time when Windows decides it needs something else, it cannot find the
CD-ROM drive.

This new policy guarantees that I will never buy a Microsoft OS again.

I actually upgrade the motherboards on home machines.  I cannot afford to
repurchace, replace and reinstall every piece of software on those
machines just to upgrade the hardware.

Fuck them! Not for a game machine. (Which is about all that Windows gets
used for around here. That and Eudora.)

This is going to make life HELL for every sysadmin who has to deal with
this crap.  I expect that you will see alot of admins printing the serial
numbers and taping them to the machines.

Microsoft is just trying to squeeze every last dollar from their
customers. Many of them are going to get tired of it and tell them where
to go.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From robinc at iu.net  Wed Jan 10 01:59:59 2001
From: robinc at iu.net (Robin Cushman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:59:59 -0500
Subject: sterno
Message-ID: <000801c07aec$189a2680$3829fea9@4d3m00b>


  Are you the one selling products such as the sterno?

If so I would like to bid on the cases of sterno

please email me

Robin
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From robinc at iu.net  Wed Jan 10 02:05:01 2001
From: robinc at iu.net (Robin Cushman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:05:01 -0500
Subject: Fw: sterno
Message-ID: <001101c07aec$cc5580c0$3829fea9@4d3m00b>

Sorry about this email. I am seriously looking for sterno and did not realize this was a joke - du!
  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin Cushman 
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net 
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 4:59 AM
Subject: sterno



  Are you the one selling products such as the sterno?

If so I would like to bid on the cases of sterno

please email me

Robin
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 10 03:55:45 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:55:45 -0500
Subject: "Crime plan targets phone thefts"
Message-ID: <3A5C4DA0.48735F47@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Crime plan targets phone thefts":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1109000/1109234.stm

Apparently, Jack Straw (famously authoritarian British Home Secretary)
wants the phone companies to do something about street robbery of mobile
phones - now a third of all robbery in London and very embarrassing for
the government because it totally masks the genuine underlying ongoing
reduction in crime. 

Straw:  "We have a shared interest with mobile telephone manufacturers
and the operators in making telephones              more secure, It's
difficult because many of the phones that are sold these days are the
pay-as-you-go phones, but there is more that can be done and this is all
about joining together in a partnership with industries, the public and
the police to help get these crimes down." 

So mugging is joined to the now 6 or 7 horsepersons of the infocalypse
as yet another reason to  ban anonymous phones? I wonder who is in
Straw's driving seat this time?

Something Must be Done is always a bad start to legislation. Do we get
the Dangerous Telephones Act 2001?


Ken (and not his employers who are law-abiding people who would do
nothing to annoy a Home Secretary)





From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Wed Jan 10 04:05:51 2001
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:05:51 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEECKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0101101355060.106-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

>I don't believe cell phones can be queried while they're off.  The phone has
>to xmit a pulse

Quite right. In addition to this, the data used to triangulate a phone
usually originates in the phone itself - GSM phones periodically transmit
field strength measurements to the base station of all the cells they hear.
This is the basis of normal triangulation, as most GSM networks do not have
a triangulation capability built in.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 05:19:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:19:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a , Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110071703.446Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
> *aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
> up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
> colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army. 

You mean like Belize and it's tax free zones? You're thesis that these
small commenwealth countries aren't tax heavens is incorrect. There was an
article in Wired just a couple of months ago about two .com dipshits with
no clue who were down there trying to make a go of it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 05:35:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:35:58 -0600
Subject: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?
Message-ID: <3A5C653E.6D43F0BA@ssz.com>

The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books is willing to
put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the current IP argument
is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.

http://www.baen.com/library/header.htm

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From rguerra at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 10 04:53:42 2001
From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:53:42 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <20010110020023.C19147@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <39531.3188102022@hse-toronto-ppp262035.sympatico.ca>



--On Wednesday, January 10, 2001 2:00 AM -0500 Declan McCullagh 
<declan at well.com> wrote:

> It also might be worth checking out the elliptic curve apps that run
> on Palm OS. --Declan
>

Declan:

A Canadian company, Certicom <www.certicom.com> has been developping 
Elliptic curve crypto libraries for quite a while. Thier software is in 
many embedded devices and several PDA's including the palm.

hope it's of help

regards

robert






From ge at cobalt.com  Wed Jan 10 06:59:13 2001
From: ge at cobalt.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9_Weijers?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:59:13 -0700
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>; from pxiao@Liberate.com on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com>
Message-ID: <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com>

On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!
> 
> Peter

It's not the public-key operations themselves that use the space. I've
managed to squeeze OAEP-formatted RSA encryption into less than
20K. The public key was hard-wired, though. You probably want to stay
away from ASN.1 formatted data if space is a concern.

Gé

-- 
--
Gé Weijers             Voice: (614)485-2900
Sun Microsystems         Fax: (614)485-2929
Server Appliance Business Unit
1160 Dublin Rd., Ste 100, Columbus OH 43215




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 06:08:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:08:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: to Jim. 
In-Reply-To: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGAELDCKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Kristen,

Please don't send me private email. If you would like to have a discussion
then please leave it on whatever 'list' you happen to be refering to. If
you find this request strange then perhaps you should go to jya.com and
ponder his current situation. Additionaly I join public mailing lists to
public conversation, not to foster further private ones.

As to the email, I will forward what is relevant and convenient for me to
submit at the time. I make no promises about format or attachments, only
that if you follow the URL it will be worth your time. Only you can judge
that value however. Do as you see fit.

Have a nice day.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Kristen Tsolis wrote:

> HeaderDear Jim,
> 
> Thank you for posting relevant and interesting articles to the list.
> 
> I cringe from rehashing what others have already written, but if you could
> paste both the URL and the text of interesting tidbits directly into your
> posts, I would probable read your posts more often.
> 
> I also prefer not to receive HTML in my email.
> 
> Thanks, Jim.
> 
> -Kristen
> 
> 
> 




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From: partners at getyourcasinonow.com (partners at getyourcasinonow.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:43:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Strategic Partnership Proposal
Message-ID: <20010110144340.B749111E8E@ns.luckyscasino.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:18:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:18:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: to Jim. 
In-Reply-To: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGGELECKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110090921.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Kristen Tsolis wrote:

> sigh.
> 
> As we have already hammered this thread to death (i.e. Jim's inconsideration
> in the guise of free speech) I will refrain from any further posts on the
> topic.
> 
> Have a nice day.

That's actually a misrepresentation. What you are proposing is nothing
more than more 'freedom for me, not for thee'. Why?

Simply, your argument is,

-	It's personaly inconvenient, I want it thusly.

-	Because it's inconvenient then it should conform
	(too much ST perhaps?)

-	So, let's move the 'inconvenience' off on another party so
	I'm not bothered.

-	Never mind the effect on them.

It's a bullshit line of reasoning. It's self-absorbed, rude, and
socialist (in the sense of coerced monotonic behaviour).

As to those who threaten to kill-file such participants, this says more
about the kill-filer than the kill-filee.

The only requirement ANY participant in this community or any other should
have is to be fair and considerate of others and a willingness to
participate in a dialectic. Conformity or consensus are not required (and
are really detrimental). Whether a particular post conforms to some
'format' is really a moot point.

This is supposed to be an anarchy, yet the leaders of the 'conformity
clique' are supposedly anarchist themselves. How odd...

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:29:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:29:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It has been proposed that forwarding a URL with a page attachment is
copyright infringement. Taint so.

The situation is equivalent to a group of friends sitting around a table
and only one paper among them. As they discuss a particular article they
pass it among themselves. This is fair use and this is what forwarding a
URL and content attachment to a mailing list is.

The copyright infringement issue arises when you SAVE that post. The real
question of copyright infringement is the archivist who saves it but
doesn't have permission to hold a copy of that material. It is the act of
archiving digital data that is infringement and not sharing of access.

Strictly speaking the ONLY group who has a legal requirement to strip
attachments is archive sites.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:30:43 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:30:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: to Jim.
In-Reply-To: <20010110104543.B23183@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092956.446g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Is it just me, or is Choate worth keeping around purely for 
> comedic value?
> 
> (And here I was thinking it would be worthwhile to set up a
> Choate-free node! We could send invitations to all the subscribers on
> his node and then refuse to peer with it until he dropped the CDR:
> silliness. But then we wouldn't see paranoid pearls like the below,
> so never mind.)

Go boy, go! Come on, you can do it!

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jan 10 09:39:44 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:39:44 -0800
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
  Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010110093801.03ecf890@pop3.lvcm.com>

At 10:54 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>On Wednesday 10 January 2001 05:29, Ken Brown wrote:
>...
> > The sun still doesn't set on the British Empire (not while we have
> > Pitcairn!), London is still the heart of darkness, it is is still the
> > place where the money is (most of the money in the world, by orders of
> > magnitude, is in meaninglessly large dollar accounts in databases owned
> > by London banks, representing currency trades), and if you think you can
> > trust these guys to do anything other than act in the interests of their
> > own profits you are making a big mistake.
>
>Their interests are in making capital grow and prosper.  These
>are diametrically opposed to the interests of high taxation and socialism.
>I don't think the Bermuda dot-coms are worried about these guys acting in
>their own interests.  I think they are banking on it....

Published Wednesday, Jan. 10, 2001, in the San Jose Mercury News

WORLD NEWS
offshore banking
Developed nations pushing to get rid of tax havens

Wealthy countries aiming to recover billions of dollars lost to offshore 
tax havens are trying to convince small countries to give up the banking 
secrecy that has helped their fragile economies survive.

Officials from about 40 countries and territories were to reconvene Tuesday 
in Barbados for a second and final day of discussion about what the 
Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development terms 
``harmful tax practices.''

The organization's 30 member nations, which include the world's wealthiest 
nations, have set up international standards that they want all nations to 
abide by. Countries that have no taxes or low taxes are being pushed to 
change their laws

steve
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 07:46:56 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:46:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110094128.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



It's interesting that the current users of SSZ are free to express
their views now, by moving to an alternate node. Even one of the 'CDR:'
free ones (which realy makes the point moot, but it is insiteful).
Personaly, I can't fathom why somebody who was bothered by the 'CDR:' or
my views would participate through SSZ, so why would a strategy as
proposed work? Ignorance.

What I try to do is offer my users an alternate, a choice. The polar
opposite of ignorance. My goal is to treet them as a true peer.

Information is power (that't WHY it want's to be free). Wasn't it Stalin
who said something about books being stronger than guns?

The reality is that the issue isn't the CDR, attachments, or whatever.

Just another demonstration of why anarchy doesn't work. "Do it my way or I
won't play..." ;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Jan 10 09:55:12 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:55:12 -0800
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
In-Reply-To: <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com>; from ge@cobalt.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 07:59:13AM -0700
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 07:59:13AM -0700, Gé Weijers wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> > footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> > protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> > within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> > alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> > about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> > smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> > (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> > the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> > anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance!!
> > 
> > Peter
> 
> It's not the public-key operations themselves that use the space. I've
> managed to squeeze OAEP-formatted RSA encryption into less than
> 20K. The public key was hard-wired, though. You probably want to stay
> away from ASN.1 formatted data if space is a concern.


Unfortunately anything that uses X.509 (like SSL) will require it.
It's possible to write small X.509/ASN.1 decoding packages.  One that I
wrote for a small-device SSL package takes about 11k code (gcc on Intel
PIII) and it's not very optimized- there's lots of room to squeeze it
down farther than the original application required.

Encoding ASN.1 really eats space though, because of the nested nature
of complex ASN.1... unless you do some tricks like I did in US patent
6,111,660.   Using this trick, we were able to encode SET messages
(really ugly ASN.1) using only 4 bytes more than the size of the final
message.  So we could comfortably run client-side SET in less than 24k
of RAM.

-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 10:06:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:06:25 -0800
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>


At 12:22 PM -0500 1/10/01, John Young wrote:
>
>Steve at one point cited cypherpunks as a hopeless
>venture to overturn government with ideas of
>cryptoanarchy. And laughed at that. Then continued
>propounding the false idea that NSA is needed
>to protect US interests. Not a word about such interest
>being those of the USG.
>
>The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
>deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
>Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks
>not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
>access on the condition that . . .
>
>What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
>show?


But, John, weren't you just a week or two ago speculating that the 
very _origins_ of the Cypherpunks group and list in 1992 had 
something dark to do with NSA covert ops?

As one who was there, at all times, I can most assuredly tell you 
that neither Eric Hughes nor Hugh Daniel nor Arthur Abraham nor John 
Gilmore nor Jude Milhon had any links to the NSA or other TLAs. If 
you knew these folks, you would know, too.

As for writing a book, this is for book writers.

Remember when Brin's book came out a few years ago? I had some folks 
in Palo Alto pressuring me to join in on a "collective refutation" of 
the "bad memes" in Brin's book, with the idea of some kind of 
speaking tour or counter-book to follow Brin around as a kind of 
"truth squad." I declined to be part of such a collective effort, 
because:


a) better things to do with my time

b) I don't like committee or collective efforts

c) no such truth squad would get even a fraction of the "air time" 
that a published author like Brin would get

d) the sheeple really don't care, anyway

e) Brin's book would be just another drop in the ocean, anyway. His 
vision of the future is unlikely in the extreme (t.v. cameras in 
police offices...sure, whatever), so refuting his "bad memes" is just 
a waste of time

As it happens, I never heard a peep out of this group. Maybe they 
dropped the idea. Maybe they got no one to sign up for the Anti-Brin 
Brigade. Maybe they got no press coverage. Who cares, anyway?

As for Levy's new book, I've only read parts of it. My copy from 
Amazon hasn't arrived, so I only checked out a few pages in the local 
bookstore. What I saw looked accurate.

As for his views toward "crypto anarchy," what else would one expect? 
If the future many of us think is likely is in fact _actually_ 
likely, then what does it matter whether Levy makes dismissive 
comments on his book tour or not? I didn't find him making dismissive 
comments in his book, which is what will be read, anyway. (And even 
if he did, see previous point...)

Look, it was fairly clear to me back in 1987-88 what was going to 
happen. I have all of my notes from that period, as well as some 
published essays. Without going into details here, many of the things 
I thought would clearly happen have _already_ happened. (And, by the 
way, I made a lot of money by investing in companies based on my 
expectations.)

I've already written a _ton_ of stuff on these matters. Some essays 
collected into books by others. (Maybe even the new Vinge book, 
though the editor has been incommunicado with me for three or four 
years, so I don't even know if my piece will be in the long-delayed 
re-issue of "True Names.")

So count me out on some effort to Write Yet Another Refutation (of a 
book that doesn't, in my view, need refuting).

Others are welcome to. I hear Gary Jeffers is still kicking around, 
eager to be asked to write such a book. Jim Choate would probably 
like to be a part of it, too.


--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 10:20:25 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:20:25 -0800
Subject: Tales from an Alternate Reality
In-Reply-To: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b68256fd045c@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:23 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>It's amazing how Jim can be so earnest and so completely
>wrong. Actually, I've known him too long: It's not remarkable, but
>predictable.
>
>(Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
>an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:29:37AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>  It has been proposed that forwarding a URL with a page attachment is
>>  copyright infringement. Taint so.
>  >
>>  The situation is equivalent to a group of friends sitting around a table
>>  and only one paper among them. As they discuss a particular article they
>  > pass it among themselves. This is fair use and this is what forwarding a
>>  URL and content attachment to a mailing list is.
>>
>  > The copyright infringement issue arises when you SAVE that post. The real
>>  question of copyright infringement is the archivist who saves it but
>>  doesn't have permission to hold a copy of that material. It is the act of
>>  archiving digital data that is infringement and not sharing of access.
>>
>>  Strictly speaking the ONLY group who has a legal requirement to strip
>  > attachments is archive sites.


Declan,

Jim Choate is actually correct in what he says above.

The laws of physics, the history of the United States and Europe, 
even mathematics...all are as he describes them. In his world. In 
"Choate Prime," the parallel universe which he lives in, the 
Constitution is as he describes it, electromagnetics work as he 
describes it, prime numbers have the properties he has told us about, 
and copyright law works in the way he describes.

As a reporter yourself, you should be appreciative of these reports 
from Choate Prime, that parallel world off-kilter from our own.


--Klaus! von Future Prime

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 10:30:11 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:30:11 -0800
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
References: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <a05010402b68259e4b2bb@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:54 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Jim sent me the below message directly without any indication that 
>it was also sent to the list. But from past experience, I know 
>better. Another example of not-quite-adequate Choatian social norms.]
>
>Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of 
>IP with the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft 
>Word (or a Tom Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am 
>not liable.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>  > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
>>>  an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>>
>>Hint: WRONG.
>>
>>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>>them in stock can be charged accordingly.

So, if I tear the cover off of a paperback book that I legally own 
(bought, for example), Choate's claim is that this "is in fact a 
crime"?

Gee, so much for scienter. So much for proof of actual criminal 
action. So much for tort law.

Jim, please call the police, as I have just torn the cover off of a 
book I own. Worse, I just cut the tags off of a mattress. Call before 
I commit more crimes.

Fucking retard.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jan 10 10:32:12 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:32:12 -0800
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
  Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010110103046.07580990@pop3.lvcm.com>

At 12:22 PM 1/10/01 -0500, you wrote:
>NY Times has a story today about the offshores being pressured
>by the big nations to curtail tax evasion and avoidance. The islands
>first resisted assaults on their sovereignty, but have agreed to
>do a study of the issue.

1 )     Tax Havens, Wealthy Nations Face Off
By REUTERS
BRIDGETOWN, (Reuters) - The leader of Barbados, spearheading small nations´ 
fight against demands from developed countries to reform their offshore 
financial centers to thwart international tax evasion, proposed on Tuesday 
setting up a new working group to give all parties a voice in the 
contentious issue.
Date: January 09, 2001

2 ) Parties Agree in Tax Haven Debate
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
ST. MICHAEL, Barbados (AP) -- Leaders of a meeting between wealthy 
countries seeking to halt tax evasion and small countries with lucrative 
offshore banking industries said Tuesday that they had made headway toward 
resol ving their differences.
Date: January 10, 2001
Source: AP | Section: World

3 ) Nations Agree to Task Force on ´Tax Havens´
By REUTERS
Representatives of wealthy nations and of Caribbean and other small nations 
branded as "tax havens" agreed on Tuesday to set up a task force to devise 
ways to reform offshore financial centers used by criminals and tax dodgers.
Date: January 10, 2001
Source: The New York Times | Section: World

steve
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 08:45:35 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:45:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: remove (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110104519.446s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



See,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

for help.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:05 EST
From: KetraSaj at aol.com
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: CDR: remove

remove




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 07:45:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:45:43 -0500
Subject: to Jim.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 08:08:43AM -0600
References: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGAELDCKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110104543.B23183@cluebot.com>


Is it just me, or is Choate worth keeping around purely for 
comedic value?

(And here I was thinking it would be worthwhile to set up a
Choate-free node! We could send invitations to all the subscribers on
his node and then refuse to peer with it until he dropped the CDR:
silliness. But then we wouldn't see paranoid pearls like the below,
so never mind.)

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 08:08:43AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Please don't send me private email. If you would like to have a discussion
> then please leave it on whatever 'list' you happen to be refering to. If
> you find this request strange then perhaps you should go to jya.com and
> ponder his current situation. Additionaly I join public mailing lists to
> public conversation, not to foster further private ones.
> 
> As to the email, I will forward what is relevant and convenient for me to
> submit at the time. I make no promises about format or attachments, only
> that if you follow the URL it will be worth your time. Only you can judge
> that value however. Do as you see fit.
> 
> Have a nice day.




From jburnes at savvis.net  Wed Jan 10 08:54:37 2001
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:54:37 -0600
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>


On Wednesday 10 January 2001 05:29, Ken Brown wrote:
...
> The sun still doesn't set on the British Empire (not while we have
> Pitcairn!), London is still the heart of darkness, it is is still the
> place where the money is (most of the money in the world, by orders of
> magnitude, is in meaninglessly large dollar accounts in databases owned
> by London banks, representing currency trades), and if you think you can
> trust these guys to do anything other than act in the interests of their
> own profits you are making a big mistake.

Their interests are in making capital grow and prosper.  These
are diametrically opposed to the interests of high taxation and socialism.
I don't think the Bermuda dot-coms are worried about these guys acting in 
their own interests.  I think they are banking on it....

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 11:02:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:02:21 -0800
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b68260fd5dcd@[207.111.241.40]>


At 12:47 PM -0600 1/10/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Blueheart
>Alison Sinclair
>Harper Science Fiction
>ISBN 0-06-105820-3
>$6.50 US
>
>I quote from the 'fly' (or whatever it's called), the facing page to the
>first page of chapter 1.
>
>"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
>book is stolen property."
>
>They've been doing this for at least 20 years.

And incorrectly. Calling something stolen doesn't make it so. I could 
tear the cover off a book I own and then sell it to Alice.

Publishers resort to FUD the same way TLAs do.


Be sure to notify my local Sheriff's Office, in Santa Cruz County, 
that I am committing a crime.


Nitwit.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 11:27:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:27:59 -0800
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <200101101857.NAA09370@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101101857.NAA09370@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010405b6826674a669@[207.111.241.40]>


At 1:49 PM -0500 1/10/01, John Young wrote:
>Well, yes, I owe the cypherpunks founders an apology,
>so apology sent.
>
>Our rump session after Steve's talk last night, to which
>he didn't come, put me face to face with 20 nyms and
>let me tell you online has its virtues -- the main one
>being never having to have people stare at your
>TLA forehead mark and you at theirs.
>
>Everybody in the room said they're working on a
>book, really, but what they needed was a writer to
>burnish the jewels. There was a writer there but
>incognito, knowing what happens in NYC at
>any gathering when pols, doctors, lawyers and thieves
>lock onto someone who has authentic literary skills.

Well, I went through my "working on a book" phase in 1988-91, when I 
was working feverishly for many hours a day on my Great Crypto 
Anarchic Novel. (At least many of the ideas for the novel turned out 
to be useful for the Next Phase, which was Cypherpunks.)

I, at least, never fell prey to the Usual Malarkey of thinking that 
all I needed to do was feed some ideas to a Real Writer who would 
then help me finish it, or collaborate.

Fact is, generating a book is hard work. In terms of lining up the 
publishers, editors, etc. The actual writing may not be too hard, 
based on some of the fluff I see out there. (Some of the 120-page 
pieces of fluff by Silicon Valley types, for example, which look like 
something easily generated by anyone with even modest writing skills. 
In fact, I'm sure most of these books by Valley CEOs are, naturally, 
ghost-written.)

>
>Even a total stranger at the bar up front had a story which
>he said makes the stuff in CRYPTO mere child's play.
>NSA-trained he claimed to be and a long time battler of
>corporate evildoing. Great piles of files to prove it, only
>a ghost writer needed.

See!

At least we don't hear this kind of tripe at Bay Area gatherings. 
People are too aware of how foolish this stuff sounds.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Jan 10 03:29:02 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:29:02 +0000
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
References: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mean-green at hushmail.com posted:
> 
> As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S.,
> Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
> By MICHAEL ALLEN

[...]

> Plenty of dot-coms are asking themselves the same question these days. Undaunted
> by their industry's growing ranks of flameouts and hoping to emerge as one
> of the profitable few, dozens of them are popping up in tax havens around
> the world.

One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
*aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army. 

Britain has a good track record of supporting business in its little
island colonies & ex-colonies - most notably Hong Kong which at one time
had a GDP larger than that of the rest of China by some measures - but
does anyone seriously think that if businesses located in those places
were ever seen as a threat by the UK government/establishment/military,
or by their US handlers,  they wouldn't just move in and close them
down?  Even some of the ex-colonies rely on Britain  or (especially in
the the Caribbean) the USA for foreign aid and military protection (that
could be "protection" as in "protection racket") and their governments
aren't in a position to stand up to either the Mother Country or her
Bigger Brother.  And, on the whole, their ordinary citizens (never mind
resident aliens) don't even have the legal rights they would in Britain,
and nothing like those of the USA.

The very fact that such business are allowed to flourish is a Big Clue
that they aren't really causing the US or UK governments any hassle.
They are quite happy to have most people at home paying tax & a few
overseas not paying tax but doing business. But if they ever really
wanted to get an individual or a business, they would.

The sun still doesn't set on the British Empire (not while we have
Pitcairn!), London is still the heart of darkness, it is is still the
place where the money is (most of the money in the world, by orders of
magnitude, is in meaninglessly large dollar accounts in databases owned
by London banks, representing currency trades), and if you think you can
trust these guys to do anything other than act in the interests of their
own profits you are making a big mistake.

Ken




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 09:33:29 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:33:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
In-Reply-To: <20010110121848.A24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113023.446v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> If I were to take Choate seriously, I'd point out that most of us,
> when we talk about "crypto anarchy" (which is a chapter by itself in
> Crypto), are not talking about lack of rules. In fact, anarchy can
> include many rules: protocols, standards, and social routines. Instead,
> we're talking about lack of *government* rules instituted by force.

I never said there weren't rules. Anarchy means no central authority, no
'arch'. The distinction you gloss is that the rules and protocols are
TOTALLY VOLUNTARY. The decision to comply is left at the discretion of the
individual. Some do, some don't.

> But all of us know better than to take Choate seriously. So we can do
> what's appropriate in an anarchy, and simply ignore him. Shunning,
> after all, is more than appropriate: When it comes to loons, it's
> even necessary.

Just another example of 'freedom for me but not for thee'. You feel it's
ok to shun, but not ok to be shuned. What a hypocrite.

In ANY sort of anarchy the act of shunning must be for something more than
simply refusing to go along.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From KetraSaj at aol.com  Wed Jan 10 08:34:05 2001
From: KetraSaj at aol.com (KetraSaj at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:05 EST
Subject: remove
Message-ID: <38.1073b1ac.278de8fd@aol.com>


remove




From bf at farc.org  Wed Jan 10 08:34:53 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:34:53 -0500
Subject: to Jim.
Message-ID: <3A5C8EE6.DB9EE7DC@farc.org>


At 10:18 AM 1/10/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Is it just me, or is Choate worth keeping around purely for
>comedic value?

Well he does distract us from the "50% spam, 25% can't we do something
about this spam" content of the list.

Besides, rarely do we get visitors from alternate universes who are
articulate
about how theirs works.

Maybe he's just a secret low-growth Texas plan to deter the Bay from
migrating to cheaper housing.









From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 08:37:42 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:37:42 -0500
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110113734.00a05b10@mail.well.com>



>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:35:09 -0500
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
>
>
>*********
>
>I've put some photos of Ralph Nader, who is probably the least photogenic 
>person in Washington, and that's saying a lot, at:
>   http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/ralph-nader.html
>
>*********
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41106,00.html
>
>    Nader Wants Internet Control
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) and Nicholas Morehead
>
>    8:25 a.m. Jan. 10, 2001 PST
>    WASHINGTON -- To most people, the Internet is a way to communicate, an
>    untapped business opportunity, or a symbol of dot-com greed run amok.
>
>    Not so Ralph Nader. The former Green Party presidential candidate sees
>    an opportunity for a new global bureaucracy.
>
>    On Tuesday, Nader called for the creation of a "World Consumer
>    Protection Organization," comparable to the United Nations' World
>    Intellectual Property Organization, only "more democratically run."
>
>    Nader, at a National Press Club event, said the proposed WCPO would
>    focus on regulation of privacy, e-commerce, intellectual property,
>    antitrust and Internet governance -- areas he said affected consumers
>    directly.
>
>    "The technology of the Internet is far ahead of any legal framework,
>    any ethical framework or global framework," Nader said. "Are we going
>    to be left with self-regulatory standards set and implemented by
>    individual companies? Are we going to be left with standards set by
>    the Better Business Bureau as a last resort?"
>
>    Another justification: Fraud. During the panel discussion organized by
>    Forbes magazine, Nader said a recent Harris poll showed that 6 million
>    Americans felt that they were "somehow defrauded" on the Internet
>    during 2000.
>
>    The odds of a WCPO being created anytime soon, of course, range
>    between zero and infinitesimal.
>
>    [...]




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 08:37:55 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:37:55 -0500
Subject: Military survelliance program aims to detect biowar attack
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110113745.009fccf0@mail.well.com>



>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:24:51 -0500
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: Military survelliance program aims to detect biowar attack
>
>
>*******
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2671596,00.html
>
>Catching The Bug Before It Kills
>By Doug Brown, Interactive Week
>January 7, 2001 7:26 PM ET
>
>Web sites and a broad sweep of electronic databases are being targeted by 
>the military for a vast surveillance project aimed at detecting incidents 
>of bio-terrorism before it's too late.  [...]
>
>********
>
>Date: Tue,  9 Jan 2001 22:58:56 -0500
>Message-Id: <200101092258.AA586350668 at mail.cipherwar.com>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>From: " Scully at cipherwar.com" <Scully at mail.cipherwar.com>
>To: <declan at well.com>
>Subject: DARPA's new Bio-Surveillance program
>
>URL: http://cipherwar.com/news/01/darpa_baa0117.htm
>
>BAA 01-17: A Biological Defense System or an Infringement of Privacy? 
>....Jan.10.2001
>
>In addition to the usual threats against the United States' national 
>security, a relatively new threat has arisen - the threat of biological 
>terrorism. There have already been attacks using biological agents in 
>other countries and possibly against the US military but these have been 
>on relatively small scales. The possibility of a nation-wide or even 
>global attack is made possible by the relatively small doses of the agent 
>needed, the communicability of the resulting disease and the misdiagnosis 
>of disease as either the common cold or flu. For a comprehensive report 
>regarding the threat of biological terrorism and especially that of 
>anthrax, please read Cipherwar's article, entitled, "Anthrax: Are We 
>Prepared" by visiting http://www.cipherwar.com/news/00/anthrax_meta4.htm .
>
>To address this growing threat, the Defense Advanced Research Projects 
>Agency (DARPA) Information Systems Office (ISO) has issued a Broad Agency 
>Announcement (BAA) to solicit research proposals for a Bio-Surveillance 
>System project designated BAA 01-17. The initial proposal was published 
>December 27, 2000 in conjunction with a relatively detailed fact sheet. A 
>final report is currently being prepared by personnel at DARPA and is said 
>to be available shortly. The article that follows is not complete but 
>includes all the information that is currently available. Stay tuned in 
>the coming months for updates as they become available.
>
>The main objective of this Bio-Surveillance program is to mine information 
>from non-traditional sources in the hope that the combination of 
>information will alert officials to a biological attack faster than would 
>be possible relying solely on diagnoses made by medical personnel. Due to 
>the fact that several infections with biological agents manifest 
>themselves with initial symptoms resembling those of the flu or the common 
>cold, the possibility that a terrorist attack could go unnoticed for a 
>lengthy period of time is one of the biggest dangers associated with such 
>an attack.
>
>As time passes, those infected with the biological agent die and the 
>disease can continue to spread throughout the population without any 
>treatment, quarantine or vaccination systems intact. Traditional disease 
>surveillance has relied upon the watchful eye of medical professionals who 
>recognize a disease, order the appropriate tests to confirm or refute the 
>diagnosis and take the appropriate course of action to treat the illness. 
>However, during the aftermath of a terrorist attack, the inherent delays 
>in the lengthy process of diagnosis would result in countless deaths.
>
>A typical theoretical example follows. Within 24 hours following anthrax 
>infection, an individual begins to feel flu-like symptoms. If the infected 
>person actually visits a doctor and if the doctor does not know that there 
>has been a release of anthrax into the environment, the doctor would 
>diagnose the person as having the flu and send them home. Meanwhile, the 
>individual becomes sicker and sicker and soon becomes refractory to 
>antibiotics designed to treat anthrax. There is a short window of time 
>that the medication will actually work and once past that, the infected 
>individual has a 99% chance of dying. Thus, with the aid of a surveillance 
>system, the epic results of a biological terrorist attack could be 
>minimized by detecting the attack and taking appropriate measures before 
>many lives are lost.
>
>DARPA, in support of their proposal says that "surveillance for covert 
>biological warfare and biological terrorist activities is needed to 
>counter the threat. If an event occurs, surveillance is needed to identify 
>the presence of the pathogen or the initial indicators of disease as soon 
>as possible so that a rapid response can be implemented." In fact, DARPA 
>conducted a simulated project that showed that with proper 
>bio-surveillance, an abnormal health event caused by a terrorist attack 
>could be detected days before identification by the medical community. 
>These critical days could save an entire city's population.
>
>The Bio-Surveillance system will collect data from grocery stores' sales, 
>pharmacy databases, school absentee databases, animal surveillance 
>networks, veterinarian and health care records, and apply the information 
>to an abnormal disease detection algorithm that will be able to identify a 
>biological attack.
>The Bio-Surveillance System program intends to demonstrate that it is 
>feasible to 1) develop an integrated system using diverse military, 
>government (federal, state and local) and commercial databases from 
>geographically dispersed locations, 2) glean applicable data from these 
>databases while maintaining patient privacy privileges, 3) analyze the 
>data to discern abnormal biological events from normal epidemiology 
>patterns and 4) provide alerts to the appropriate DOD emergency response 
>infrastructure.
>BAA 01-17 is only in the initial planning stages. DARPA holds lofty goals 
>for their proposed surveillance system.
>The vision for the Bio-Surveillance Project is to develop the information 
>technology necessary to alert the DOD of any clandestine bio-agent release 
>within the CONUS, in time for adequate response. The envisioned network 
>would gather and integrate information from non-traditional health 
>information sources...and state-of-the-art bio-sensors for a city with a 
>large DOD population. The system would support real-time epidemiological 
>analysis and autonomous alerts of any anomalous or unusual health event in 
>the DOD military or civilian population. Once a possible anomalous event 
>is detected, the system would provide the capability for a medical expert 
>to quickly analyze the possible cause and isolate the infected population 
>for timely treatment.
>As for money, $24 million of taxpayers' money will fund the five-year 
>DARPA project that will be a system to protect primarily Department of 
>Defense military and civilian personnel. What about the rest of the public?
>
>The United States and its allies need some sort of counter to the very 
>real threat of biological terrorism. However, is the development of yet 
>another public surveillance program really the answer? Especially a public 
>surveillance program that holds as its primary objective to protect DoD 
>military and civilian personnel? Over the recent years, a few undercover 
>surveillance programs have been discovered and people in general seem 
>appalled at the notion that they are under the watchful eye of Big 
>Brother. BAA 01-17 may become the first "publicly-acknowledged" 
>surveillance system, one that is known about while it is in action. 
>Combing the currently available information on the Bio-Surveillance 
>System, there is very little mentioned about protecting the public's 
>privacy. Perhaps the issue of privacy is a lower priority or even an 
>afterthought to protecting the nation and especially DoD employees from a 
>terrorist attack. We should be weary of such a system and approach it with 
>extr!
>eme caution.
>
>Contributed by meta4 at cipherwar.com
>
>For More Information:
>http://www.darpa.mil/iso/bios/baa01-17..htm
>
>Sources:
>http://www.arpa.mil/iso/bios/baa01_17faq.html
>http://www.darpa.mil/baa/BAA01-17.htm
>http://www.darpa.mil/iso/bios/baa01-17..htm
>http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2671596,00.html
>
>--
>Founder
>Cipherwar: Information Warfare for Free Thinkers
>http://www.Cipherwar.com
>--




From donjrb at excite.com  Wed Jan 10 08:48:05 2001
From: donjrb at excite.com (donjrb at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:48:05 -0500
Subject: Pro Active Internet Marketing
Message-ID: <0000178a04a5$00007b45$0000228b@209.162.52.118>

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From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Jan 10 12:11:43 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101101206260.17413-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> "If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
> book is stolen property."
> 
> They've been doing this for at least 20 years.

The reason for this is that if the cover is ripped off the book in that
manner, it is usually one that has been "stripped".  That is when a
paperback is reported as "not sold" and instead of sending the books back,
they just send the front covers for a refund.  (Books are heavy and they
figure it is not worth the shipping.)  The books are then supposed to be
destroyed. Some dealers will then sell the books after they have been
refunded in this manner.  (Gotta get that extra profit!)

That is why that warning is there.  It is because the books have probably
already been claimed as destroyed to the publisher and a refund issued.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:18:48 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:18:48 -0500
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110094128.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:46:56AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110094128.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110121848.A24697@cluebot.com>


If I were to take Choate seriously, I'd point out that most of us,
when we talk about "crypto anarchy" (which is a chapter by itself in
Crypto), are not talking about lack of rules. In fact, anarchy can
include many rules: protocols, standards, and social routines. Instead,
we're talking about lack of *government* rules instituted by force.

But all of us know better than to take Choate seriously. So we can do
what's appropriate in an anarchy, and simply ignore him. Shunning,
after all, is more than appropriate: When it comes to loons, it's
even necessary.

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:46:56AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The reality is that the issue isn't the CDR, attachments, or whatever.
> 
> Just another demonstration of why anarchy doesn't work. "Do it my way or I
> won't play..." ;)




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 10:22:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:22:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [Jim sent me the below message directly without any indication that it was 
> also sent to the list. But from past experience, I know better. Another 
> example of not-quite-adequate Choatian social norms.]
> 
> Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of IP with 
> the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft Word (or a Tom 
> Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am not liable.

You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
rights.

In the case of the Tom Clancy novel, there's usually a clause about no
electronic storage so if you had such a novel then yes possession would in
fact be a crime.

I would have thought the .mp3 controversy would have made this point
clear.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jan 10 09:22:52 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:22:52 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
  Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


NY Times has a story today about the offshores being pressured
by the big nations to curtail tax evasion and avoidance. The islands
first resisted assaults on their sovereignty, but have agreed to
do a study of the issue.

On a related matter is the likelihood of nations and private interests
engaging in cyberwar over who controls financial and perhaps
intellectual property resources. Steve Levy last evening said he 
believes cyberwar is soon to come, and cryptography will play
a crucial role, but he said this would be between nations, whereas 
it is probably more likely that nations, utilizing their combined 
intelligence and law enforement agencies, will combat private 
interests not each other, in particular those parties attempting 
to run financial transactions outside government control.

The nations argue they must unite to protect their citizenry
against criminal businesses and outlaws, the othe side argues
the need to protect government invasion of private affairs.
What is lacking in Levy's CRYPTO is that it does not appear 
to consider that multiple governments will collude against their
citizenry, rather than each doing so. 

Steve at one point cited cypherpunks as a hopeless
venture to overturn government with ideas of 
cryptoanarchy. And laughed at that. Then continued
propounding the false idea that NSA is needed
to protect US interests. Not a word about such interest
being those of the USG.

The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks 
not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
access on the condition that . . .

What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
show?




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:23:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:23:35 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:29:37AM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110092430.446f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>


It's amazing how Jim can be so earnest and so completely
wrong. Actually, I've known him too long: It's not remarkable, but
predictable.

(Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)

-Declan


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 09:29:37AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> It has been proposed that forwarding a URL with a page attachment is
> copyright infringement. Taint so.
> 
> The situation is equivalent to a group of friends sitting around a table
> and only one paper among them. As they discuss a particular article they
> pass it among themselves. This is fair use and this is what forwarding a
> URL and content attachment to a mailing list is.
> 
> The copyright infringement issue arises when you SAVE that post. The real
> question of copyright infringement is the archivist who saves it but
> doesn't have permission to hold a copy of that material. It is the act of
> archiving digital data that is infringement and not sharing of access.
> 
> Strictly speaking the ONLY group who has a legal requirement to strip
> attachments is archive sites.
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 10:43:53 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:43:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b68259e4b2bb@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124157.446H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> So, if I tear the cover off of a paperback book that I legally own 
> (bought, for example), Choate's claim is that this "is in fact a 
> crime"?

No, Tim. That isn't. If a store, who takes it on concession, has not sold
it by the time it's display date expires the cover is torn off. The book
is entered into the accounting system as 'destroyed' and it goes on from
there. The key point being, at least to this conversation, is that no
royalty on the book was ever paid. It was legally bound for the trash
heap.

So, possession is in effect possession of stolen property.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 10:47:43 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:47:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110124516.446I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Blueheart
Alison Sinclair
Harper Science Fiction
ISBN 0-06-105820-3
$6.50 US

I quote from the 'fly' (or whatever it's called), the facing page to the
first page of chapter 1.

"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
book is stolen property."

They've been doing this for at least 20 years.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 09:54:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:54:20 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113350.446w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>


[Jim sent me the below message directly without any indication that it was 
also sent to the list. But from past experience, I know better. Another 
example of not-quite-adequate Choatian social norms.]

Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of IP with 
the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft Word (or a Tom 
Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am not liable.

-Declan


At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
> > an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>
>Hint: WRONG.
>
>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>them in stock can be charged accordingly.
>
>The primary distinction USED TO BE whether there was intent to make money
>off the act. Now the simple desire to want to make copies and perhaps even
>share them is under review. It's not the copy of the book anymore but
>rather simple access to the ideas (which is what copyright isn't about).
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 12:57:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:57:31 -0800
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>
 <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>


At 3:52 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 10:06:25AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>  e) Brin's book would be just another drop in the ocean, anyway. His
>>  vision of the future is unlikely in the extreme (t.v. cameras in
>>  police offices...sure, whatever), so refuting his "bad memes" is just
>>  a waste of time
>
>Right. Everyone's forgotten it; books like that (and Crypto, and
>Database Nation)  have a short half-life.

And of course there are at least a _dozen_ books on the general issue 
of "privacy." One of the Kennedy's co-authored one (or at least 
agreed to have her name put on the cover, perhaps). Whit Diffie 
co-authored one. And so on. A dozen, at least. Nothing new, either.

There are even a bunch of recent popularizations of crypto, 
steganography, PGP, etc. Do they really matter? At the margins, sure. 
Some kid in junior high school is perhaps discovering Singh's book on 
"Secret Codes" (or whatever the exact title is) the same way Whit 
Diffie read one of those early crypto books when he was a kid.

Ditto for political books.

It's not that I'm jaded, it's that there are TOO MANY DAMNED BOOKS 
out there. I spend a lot of time in Borders and Bookshop Santa Cruz, 
two very large and well-stocked bookstores in my town. (Declan can 
confirm this, though he may not have seen the new Borders yet.) I 
browse, in the classical sense, the New Books section most times I'm 
in there. The turnover is incredible. The range of topics is 
incredible, from climbings of an obscure peak in the Himalayas, to 
what women want in their sociology classes, to what the AOL-Time 
Warner deals means for prospects of peace on the Korean peninsula. 
And, every month, new books on quantum weirdness, new books on online 
privacy, new books on the history of the Web, etc. A flood of 
writers, a flood of books. The topics get more specialized in the 
same way Ph.D. theses have gotten so specialized. The grand 
unifications are few and far between.

Who reads this stuff?

We are drowning in a sea of factoids and well-researched books on 
obscure Beat Generation poets and books on the impact of technology. 
Big deal.

Very few current books actually are _important_. (There are some, 
IMO. "The Elegant Universe," "Noah's Flood," "Emerging Viruses," in 
recent years. The novels of Stephenson, Vinge, Gibson, in past years. 
"Atlas Shrugged," whatever flaws it may have. Etc.)

With the reported declines in reading amongst school children 
(various reasons, from poor schooling to lots of other choices like 
videos and games), and this explosion of titles, and with bookstores 
bigger than they ever were when I was a kid....hmmmhhh, lots of 
interesting forces about to collide.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Jan 10 10:09:06 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:09:06 -0500
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110113734.00a05b10@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGEENCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Not to worry.  Ralph is only momentarily distracted.  Just wait for the new
administration to start chopping down thousand-year-old forests (and
squishing some photogenic "poster animal" in the process).

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Declan McCullagh
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 11:38 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos




>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:35:09 -0500
>To: politech at politechbot.com
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
>
>
>*********
>
>I've put some photos of Ralph Nader, who is probably the least photogenic
>person in Washington, and that's saying a lot, at:
>   http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/ralph-nader.html
>
>*********
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41106,00.html
>
>    Nader Wants Internet Control
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) and Nicholas Morehead
>
>    8:25 a.m. Jan. 10, 2001 PST
>    WASHINGTON -- To most people, the Internet is a way to communicate, an
>    untapped business opportunity, or a symbol of dot-com greed run amok.
>
>    Not so Ralph Nader. The former Green Party presidential candidate sees
>    an opportunity for a new global bureaucracy.
>
>    On Tuesday, Nader called for the creation of a "World Consumer
>    Protection Organization," comparable to the United Nations' World
>    Intellectual Property Organization, only "more democratically run."
>
>    Nader, at a National Press Club event, said the proposed WCPO would
>    focus on regulation of privacy, e-commerce, intellectual property,
>    antitrust and Internet governance -- areas he said affected consumers
>    directly.
>
>    "The technology of the Internet is far ahead of any legal framework,
>    any ethical framework or global framework," Nader said. "Are we going
>    to be left with self-regulatory standards set and implemented by
>    individual companies? Are we going to be left with standards set by
>    the Better Business Bureau as a last resort?"
>
>    Another justification: Fraud. During the panel discussion organized by
>    Forbes magazine, Nader said a recent Harris poll showed that 6 million
>    Americans felt that they were "somehow defrauded" on the Internet
>    during 2000.
>
>    The odds of a WCPO being created anytime soon, of course, range
>    between zero and infinitesimal.
>
>    [...]





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 10:10:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:10:36 -0500
Subject: The uses of pseudo-links
In-Reply-To: <a0501040cb680fcf033b8@[207.111.241.161]>; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 09:42:07AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101090759020.5512-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <a0501040cb680fcf033b8@[207.111.241.161]>
Message-ID: <20010110131036.A25413@cluebot.com>


Right. Most news organizations nowadays provide some kind of "alert"
service. Wired News has one that lets readers choose to be alerted by
name of author or keyword:

http://www.wired.alerts.com/wired/add_alert.jsp

These, to buttress your point, are better mechanisms to be alerted to
relevant articles than the cpunks list is.

-Declan


On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 09:42:07AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> Your definition of "useful" is different from mine. I believe lists 
> like ours should primarily be about discussions and points of view, 
> not a third-hand CNET or Register or Slashdot. There are many Web 
> sources of breaking news (not that a lot of the "functional quantum 
> computer" sorts of stories are usually breaking news...).
> 
> Personally, I like it when someone finds a news item, provides a 
> detailed URL, even quotes (in ASCII, not MIME!) a paragraph or two, 
> and then comments on it and connects it to Cypherpunks issues.
> 
> Merely dumping out "general science" items, with general URLs, is 
> just plain abusing the list.
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 13:11:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:11:01 -0800
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
 Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>


At 3:46 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
>>  The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
>>  deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
>>  Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks
>>  not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
>>  access on the condition that . . .
>
>True. As a journalist, I do my best to avoid those conditions. I think
>of them (probably not an original thought) as entangling alliances.
>
>I could easily cobble together a book proposal that would include
>chapters by cypherpunk types; I'd edit. I've been thinking of writing
>a book for a while -- even had meetings with publishers in '96 -- but
>it would take too much time. Editing would be far easier.

I hope you don't do this. There have been several of these kinds of 
collections--a guy at MIT has done at least a couple of them (I 
forget his name, though three of my short pieces are in one of his 
books: the books cost $40-60 or so, for a damned paperback, which is 
why I don't have my own copy. Even at this high price, they don't pay 
for submissions and they don't even give out copies to contributors!).

What you'd end up with is a printed collection of a bunch of 
mini-rants or survey articles, whose total verbiage is just a tiny 
snapshot of the field.

There's probably a role for a good book on, say, "digital money," 
with a mix of overview articles and detailed articles. This would be 
a _lot_ of work, and the editor would need to be well-versed in the 
field.

But not a book on "Cypherpunk" themes. Too many seemingly-unrelated 
areas, too much background to cover (ironically, compared to digital 
money, but I think this is so).

And Yog help you if you end up just putting together whatever junky 
stuff people are willing to submit.
>
>>  What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
>  > show?
>
>Ah, it was a lackluster show and not that important.
>

I didn't see it, but I assume it was like most of the past t.v. shows 
on the NSA and codes and such: Discovery Channel, History Channel, 
BBC "Horizon," CNN, etc. These shows are easy for producers to put 
together: lots of shots of radomes and antennas and NSA buildings, a 
tour of the Cryptologic Museum, some obligatory juicy stuff about 
Enigma and Turing, interviews with talking heads about the need for 
blah blah, and so on.

Feh.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 11:16:16 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:16:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b68260fd5dcd@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110131137.446J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Are you a bookseller taking the book on concession? Are you listing it as
'destroyed' and then taking it to a local bookstore to sell it? No? Didn't
think so. Did the book have a cover when you bought it? Your comparison is
moot, you are ignoring who actually owns the property, and arguing that
because on one non-similar case one can do one thing then by extension
that same freedom of action extends to all others.

That's nitwit Tim.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> At 12:47 PM -0600 1/10/01, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Blueheart
> >Alison Sinclair
> >Harper Science Fiction
> >ISBN 0-06-105820-3
> >$6.50 US
> >
> >I quote from the 'fly' (or whatever it's called), the facing page to the
> >first page of chapter 1.
> >
> >"If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that this
> >book is stolen property."
> >
> >They've been doing this for at least 20 years.
> 
> And incorrectly. Calling something stolen doesn't make it so. I could 
> tear the cover off a book I own and then sell it to Alice.
> 
> Publishers resort to FUD the same way TLAs do.
> 
> 
> Be sure to notify my local Sheriff's Office, in Santa Cruz County, 
> that I am committing a crime.
> 
> 
> Nitwit.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 11:24:25 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:24:25 -0600
Subject: The Register - The Conscience of a Hacker
Message-ID: <3A5CB6E9.74556E5E@ssz.com>


The article written by "The Mentor" (If you see Loyd tell him ravage says
Hi!)has raised its head again...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15958.html


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jan 10 10:49:31 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:49:31 -0500
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>
References: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101101857.NAA09370@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Well, yes, I owe the cypherpunks founders an apology,
so apology sent.

Our rump session after Steve's talk last night, to which
he didn't come, put me face to face with 20 nyms and
let me tell you online has its virtues -- the main one
being never having to have people stare at your
TLA forehead mark and you at theirs.

Everybody in the room said they're working on a
book, really, but what they needed was a writer to
burnish the jewels. There was a writer there but
incognito, knowing what happens in NYC at 
any gathering when pols, doctors, lawyers and thieves
lock onto someone who has authentic literary skills.

Even a total stranger at the bar up front had a story which
he said makes the stuff in CRYPTO mere child's play.
NSA-trained he claimed to be and a long time battler of
corporate evildoing. Great piles of files to prove it, only
a ghost writer needed.

Now our secret meeting place was in a unisex dormitory 
building, and this gent was surely trolling with TLA crypto 
comsec pickup rap. 

It's as though the whole place was channeling Sandy's 
natsec-cryptoporn. Confirmed by an attendee who said
the Net is dead except for exchanging porn, as  in the
beginning, as it will ever be. I asked for a copy of his
essay, and he said, do you write.




From support at myspace.com  Wed Jan 10 14:13:54 2001
From: support at myspace.com (Myspace.com Support)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:13:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Urgent info re: your myspace InBox
Message-ID: <200101102213.OAA23949@toad.com>



Dear Valued myspace Member,

As part of our ongoing efforts to provide users with quality products 
and services, myspace will be temporarily removing InBox from the 
myspace site.  

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.  But, don't 
worry.  Inbox is not going away forever.  We will be reintroducing 
InBox in a short while as part of a premium myspace service that 
will include all of InBox's benefits, PLUS dedicated storage space 
and servers to ensure that our valuable customers receive the best 
service possible.

This change in service will take place in two phases.  1) Beginning 
on Friday, January 12, 2001, you will no longer be able to receive, 
send, or forward emails and files from your myspace InBox.  
2) On Friday, January 26, 2001, we will be temporarily removing InBox 
from the myspace site.  As of this date, you will no longer be able 
to access or retrieve files or emails previously stored in your 
myspace InBox.  

If you have files or emails in your InBox that you would like to 
use in the future, please move them into a folder within your 
myspace account or to another location prior to 
Friday, January 26, 2001.

Stay tuned for more news on the re-release of InBox and myspace 
premium services.

Sincerely,

The Myspace Team 


This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Jan 10 14:18:32 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:18:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101101356430.23209-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

>It's not that I'm jaded, it's that there are TOO MANY DAMNED BOOKS 
>out there. I spend a lot of time in Borders and Bookshop Santa Cruz, 
>two very large and well-stocked bookstores in my town. (Declan can 
>confirm this, though he may not have seen the new Borders yet.) I 
>browse, in the classical sense, the New Books section most times I'm 
>in there. The turnover is incredible. The range of topics is 
>incredible, from climbings of an obscure peak in the Himalayas, to 
>what women want in their sociology classes, to what the AOL-Time 
>Warner deals means for prospects of peace on the Korean peninsula. 
>And, every month, new books on quantum weirdness, new books on online 
>privacy, new books on the history of the Web, etc. A flood of 
>writers, a flood of books. The topics get more specialized in the 
>same way Ph.D. theses have gotten so specialized. The grand 
>unifications are few and far between.

Something in the way you write that reminds me of my brother.  He 
watches Television.  He doesn't watch actual shows.  He flips to 
a random channel, watches it for 15-30 seconds, flips to another 
random channel, watches *that* for 15-30 seconds, repeat for hours...
He's not interested in actual shows, but he is fascinated by 
Television - what kind of images people compose, what kind of ads 
different channels have, choices in background music and how 
they've changed over years of soap operas, fashions in body type 
represented by shows of different eras, etc. It forms some kind 
of gestalt to him, some fairly sensible idea of how the filters 
on human experience are and how they've been changing. 

Me, it just drives bugfuck.

>Who reads this stuff?

The literate subsection of society has clearly become more 
diverse, during the same period in which the aliterate have 
become less so.  This is interesting.

>Very few current books actually are _important_. 

Perhaps true, but no two people have the same list.

>With the reported declines in reading amongst school children 
>(various reasons, from poor schooling to lots of other choices like 
>videos and games), and this explosion of titles, and with bookstores 
>bigger than they ever were when I was a kid....hmmmhhh, lots of 
>interesting forces about to collide.

Collided, I'd have said, in the last ten years.  It's just that 
we can't fully see the consequences yet. 

				Bear





From j.fulton at juno.com  Wed Jan 10 14:52:01 2001
From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:52:01 -0800
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.]
Message-ID: <20010110.145202.319.17.j.fulton@juno.com>


Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  You're
wasting it.

On a related note, God gave you a brain. 

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:34:16 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
writes:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > You are confusing two distinct issues: Form and Content.
> 
> Your first mistake. They are not distinct. One can not have one 
> without
> the other.
> 
> > On the Content side, you are essentially correct. I and many 
> others
> > find the beliefs you espouse on physics, law, and mathematics 
> > idiosyncratic,  peculiar, and often just plain wrong.
> 
> And I challenge you to demonstrate the errors. To date not one of 
> these
> supposed failures has been demonstrated.
> 
> As to having ideas survive it is the reason I post in public forums,
> private forums are worthless for this.
> 
> > However, as to Form, you're mistaken. Cypherpunks is NOT an 
> > anarchy - it's a forum for communication. 'Communication'  shares 
> > roots with  'Common' and 'Community' . More than one party is 
> > involved. For effective communication to occur,  certain agreed 
> > (often tacitly or by default) protocols and standards are adhered 
> > to by the parties (note the plural) wishing to communicate.
> > 
> > This is where you are failing ('What we have here is a failure to
> > communicate' :-)
> 
> No, a failure to conform. To in fact conform to an arbitrary 
> standard with
> reason to its existance. The fact is if you refer to the archives 
> I've
> posted forwards in a variety of styles. Without fail each and every 
> one of
> them (some of them being suggested now as 'accepted' alternatives - 
> which
> is a hoot for me) has come under criticism. In many cases by the 
> same
> parties.
> 
> > To be specific, your methods of citation of outside sources are
> > both burdensome and ineffective.
> 
> In your opinion. You say 'potatoe' and I say 'potato'. They are in 
> fact
> standard accepted citations methods.
> 
> > Consider a very recent example. This morning, you posted an
> > note titled: 'CDR: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?
> > 
> > The message consisted of:
> > 
> > 1.  4 lines of message:
> > 
> > 	The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books 
> is willing
> > to
> > 	put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the 
> current IP
> > argument
> > 	is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.
> > 
> > ...which would have been greatly improved by the sentence: "Baen 
> is putting 
> > some of its books on the net for (cheap) downloads."
> 
> Get a fucking clue.
> 
> > 2. A one line URL (a useful one, BTW).
> > 
> > 3. 12 lines of sigfile, including a non-working hostname
> > (www.ssz.com).
> 
> Actually it does work just fine.
> 
> > 4. An attached HTML page, which does nothing but put up
> > a screen saying 'Baen Free LIbrary', along with a broken
> > image link. 
> 
> Shouldn't have been any attachment, just the URL. Oh well. Shit 
> happens.
> 
> > Jim: Can you explain why you did this?
> 
> Can you explain why I should? Why are your beliefs as to posting 
> style,
> content, what I or any other member of this find of particular 
> fucking
> interest? Demonstrate why any of my actions to date have caused you 
> ANY
> sort of harm? Because without harm you've no business asking, let 
> alone
> telling them what to be doing or how.
> 
> You're exactly the sort of person Cypherpunks are trying to stop.
> 
>     
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      
> ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Jan 10 11:56:10 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:56:10 -0500
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.] 
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB2F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>



> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com] wrote:
> That's actually a misrepresentation. What you are proposing is nothing
> more than more 'freedom for me, not for thee'. Why?
> 
> Simply, your argument is,
> 
> -	It's personaly inconvenient, I want it thusly.
> -	Because it's inconvenient then it should conform
> 	(too much ST perhaps?)
> -	So, let's move the 'inconvenience' off on another party so
> 	I'm not bothered.
> -	Never mind the effect on them.
> 
> It's a bullshit line of reasoning. It's self-absorbed, rude, and
> socialist (in the sense of coerced monotonic behaviour).
> 
[...]

> The only requirement ANY participant in this community or any other should
> have is to be fair and considerate of others and a willingness to
> participate in a dialectic. Conformity or consensus are not required (and
> are really detrimental). Whether a particular post conforms to some
> 'format' is really a moot point.
> 
> This is supposed to be an anarchy, yet the leaders of the 'conformity
> clique' are supposedly anarchist themselves. How odd...
> 
> 
[I'm posting this to the list since Jim appears to prefer that - most people
would rather receive criticism in private, but I'll accede to his wishes
here.]

Jim:

You are confusing two distinct issues: Form and Content.

On the Content side, you are essentially correct. I and many others
find the beliefs you espouse on physics, law, and mathematics 
idiosyncratic,  peculiar, and often just plain wrong. However, I think 
we'd all agree that you are free to post them. The list IS an anarchy
in that sense.

However, as to Form, you're mistaken. Cypherpunks is NOT an 
anarchy - it's a forum for communication. 'Communication'  shares 
roots with  'Common' and 'Community' . More than one party is 
involved. For effective communication to occur,  certain agreed 
(often tacitly or by default) protocols and standards are adhered 
to by the parties (note the plural) wishing to communicate.

This is where you are failing ('What we have here is a failure to
communicate' :-)

To be specific, your methods of citation of outside sources are
both burdensome and ineffective.

Consider a very recent example. This morning, you posted an
note titled: 'CDR: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?

The message consisted of:

1.  4 lines of message:

	The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books is willing
to
	put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the current IP
argument
	is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.

...which would have been greatly improved by the sentence: "Baen is putting 
some of its books on the net for (cheap) downloads."

2. A one line URL (a useful one, BTW).

3. 12 lines of sigfile, including a non-working hostname
(www.ssz.com).

4. An attached HTML page, which does nothing but put up
a screen saying 'Baen Free LIbrary', along with a broken
image link. Jim: Can you explain why you did this? It adds
zero, zip, nada to the usefullness of  your post, contains
no link, and takes up space. Don't you check your 
messages before you send them?

This is (a) ineffective, since you don't tell us *what* Baen
is doing which is interesting, and (b) burdensome, since you
tagged on a totally useless attachment. You tagged it on to
every single copy received by list members.

A couple questions:

1. If by expending one minute of your own time, you can 
save *each* of your (several hundred) recipients a minute 
of their's, is this an unreasonable burden to ask 
of you? You're asking hundreds of people to consider your
posting - isn't it reasonable for you to make it easy for
them to do so?[1] 

2. You say:

> The only requirement ANY participant in this community or any other should
> have is to be fair and considerate of others and a willingness to
> participate in a dialectic. Conformity or consensus are not required (and
> are really detrimental). Whether a particular post conforms to some
> 'format' is really a moot point.
> 
Are you being 'fair and considerate of others' when you burden every single
one of your recipients, to the extent of proposing that they use search 
engines to puzzle out to what you refer because you were too lazy to 
obtain a durable URL?

I'm not asking you to conform in your beliefs and positions. Others may 
criticize you there, but I don't think I have (crankish as I may consider 
them).  I am asking that you show 'a willingness to participate in a dialog'
by communicating in the common manner. To do this, the 'format' is far
from moot. If you posted entirely in uuencoded PDF files,  MIME-encoded
AVI's of your interpretative dances, or in Latin, your posts would go
unread.

To be read, considered, and appreciated - isn't that what you want? To
reach those goals, it's not good to post in such a way as to suggest
either contempt for your audience's needs, or technical incompetence 
on your own part.

Peter Trei

PS: You *have* been improving. You no longer post kilobytes of
included material. This is greatly appreciated.

-----------------------------
Footnote:

[1] For non-clued readers, Choate's reference to 'ST'
probably points to Star Trek and a quote from the
show: 'The needs fo the many outweigh the needs of the
few'.] 







 



 





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 14:59:33 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]>


At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
>Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew
>Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury,
>in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on
>January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the
>applicant.
>
>The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not
>disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a
>disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation."
>...
>   Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer
>   disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items
>   in your possession or under your control, including electronically
>   stored or computer records, which:
>
>     1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James
>     Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or


By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of 
Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the 
e-mail he copied the list on.


(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail 
to CD-Rs.)


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From j.fulton at juno.com  Wed Jan 10 15:24:03 2001
From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:24:03 -0800
Subject: Ravage.... A man... a mission.... a moron
Message-ID: <20010110.152404.319.18.j.fulton@juno.com>


Hey!  You're pretty witty, aren't you?  In the past two minutes, you've
posted an incredible amount of drivel.  (I say this objectively - only
you would think it wasn't drivel.  Rather fond of your own 'voice',
aren't you?)  
A real freedom fighter, aren't you?  One of those fearless crusaders who
have grown tired of living under a dictatorship?  The tyranny has finally
been enough!  Jim's fighting back!  All you book cover-rippers better
watch out.....?

What a moron.  Didn't your mother ever tell you that the point of
heckling was to make the *other* guy look like an idiot?  She certainly
must've told you never to get drunk before you email, didn't she?  I
mean, come'on.  Most of us are working here, we don't go to Burger King
and bug you while you're working, do we?  We're paying politicians to act
like fools, why do you bother doing it for free?

Crawl out from behind your terminal, putz.  It must suck having your
social life rise and fall with the price of electricity.

"I'm not interested in your body...."  tee-hee.... I guess the pen's only
mighter than the sword if someone other than Jimmy's wielding it.  

BTW, "Form" and "Content" are *not* one and the same.  Of course, unless
we agree on a basis of logic, it's difficult to argue an issue, isn't it?

(wait, wait.... let me guess.... your response is going to be, "No it
isn't.")


"Before a larger group can see the value of an idea, Jim has to stop
insisting that 1 + 1 = 3 for large values of '1' "

Joel


On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:10:04 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com>
writes:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:
> 
> > Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  
> You're
> > wasting it.
> 
> I've told you before, I'm not interested in your body. As to your
> bandwidth and it's cost, that's a personal problem. Good luck with 
> it.
> 
>     
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      
> ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 12:46:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:46:45 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:52PM -0500
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> The full story of crypto is yet to be written, in particular its
> deceptions, perhaps a piece by Vin McLelland, one by
> Declan, one by Tim May, if not by distributed cyperhpunks 
> not quite so malleable as solo individuals given privileged
> access on the condition that . . .

True. As a journalist, I do my best to avoid those conditions. I think
of them (probably not an original thought) as entangling alliances.

I could easily cobble together a book proposal that would include
chapters by cypherpunk types; I'd edit. I've been thinking of writing
a book for a while -- even had meetings with publishers in '96 -- but
it would take too much time. Editing would be far easier.

> What about that timing of CRYPTO release and the NSA
> show?

Ah, it was a lackluster show and not that important.

-Declan




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 15:48:53 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:48:53 -0800
Subject: Declan's book
In-Reply-To: <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com>
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
 <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
 <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
 <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com>
 <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>
 <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>


At 6:31 PM -0500 1/10/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 01:11:01PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>  I hope you don't do this. There have been several of these kinds of
>>  collections--a guy at MIT has done at least a couple of them (I
>>  forget his name, though three of my short pieces are in one of his
>>  books: the books cost $40-60 or so, for a damned paperback, which is
>>  why I don't have my own copy. Even at this high price, they don't pay
>>  for submissions and they don't even give out copies to contributors!).
>
>As someone who makes the vast bulk of his income from speaking fees, I
>wouldn't undertake such a project unless I could pay contributors and
>get a generous number of copies to hand out. Seems only fair.

"Pay contributors"...such a radical, but hokey, concept.

Without going into details about my financial situation, the prospect 
of a dollar a word, or three, or whatever it is publishers typically 
pay contributors these days, is not enticing in the slightest. The 
phrase "I don't get out of bed for less than..." comes to mind.

A share of the profits might be, though I expect there would be 
little in the way of profits for a non-bestseller.

It's true that I don't get paid a single dime for the things I write 
for Usenet, or mailing lists, even for the things others choose to 
include in their books (which I give permission for, when they 
contact me). But I also don't have a schedule to adhere to, I write 
about what interests me, and I don't have any obligation to do 
extensive research of the footnote variety.

If someone wants to pay me, say, $10,000 for whatever I can crank out 
in a couple of days, I guess I'd be willing to contribute something 
to such an edited book. If rewrites were called for, or more research 
were to be needed, then I'd want more money.

Colin Powell recently got paid $200,000 for a 30-minute off-the-cuff 
speech on some "why foreigh policy matters" b.s. topic. Of course, it 
was underwritten by a Lebanese "businessman" said in news reports to 
have close ties to Syrian intelligence, so do the math. A legal way 
to buy influence in our strange society. If Colin Powell can give N 
of these b.s. speeches a year, my thoughts are surely worth $10K for 
a day or two's worth of writing. Of course, this won't happen.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 12:52:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:52:53 -0500
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 10:06:25AM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]>
Message-ID: <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 10:06:25AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> e) Brin's book would be just another drop in the ocean, anyway. His 
> vision of the future is unlikely in the extreme (t.v. cameras in 
> police offices...sure, whatever), so refuting his "bad memes" is just 
> a waste of time

Right. Everyone's forgotten it; books like that (and Crypto, and
Database Nation)  have a short half-life.

> As for his views toward "crypto anarchy," what else would one expect? 
> If the future many of us think is likely is in fact _actually_ 
> likely, then what does it matter whether Levy makes dismissive 
> comments on his book tour or not? I didn't find him making dismissive 
> comments in his book, which is what will be read, anyway. (And even 
> if he did, see previous point...)

He didn't make dismissive comments, and was actually more critical
(though mildly) when we had conversations about it in the past.

The thing, though, is that Crypto only spends a paragraph or two --
really -- on crypto anarchy. It's not a focus of the book, or even the
chapter, its name notwithstanding.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 12:56:46 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:56:46 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110155646.D27031@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
> especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
> rights.

Oh, certainly there are such cases, such as if you're part of the
infringement. But as a general rule, my point is valid, and I'd
challenge Choate to provide a cite to the U.S. code that suggests
otherwise.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 13:03:01 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:03:01 -0500
Subject: Choate Free Zone (I'm famous Ma!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113023.446v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 11:33:29AM -0600
References: <20010110121848.A24697@cluebot.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113023.446v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010110160301.E27031@cluebot.com>


Oh, nobody's forcing you at gunpoint to follow any rules; thus,
there's no coercion involved, just social norms. Contrary to what you
say, shunning can take place for simply refusing to go along: If
someone repeatedly violates norms, it's a perfectly reasonable
response.

As for whether OK to be shunned, if folks want to shun me, I support
their right to do so. But, not being all that Choatian, I doubt they
will.

-Declan



On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 11:33:29AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > If I were to take Choate seriously, I'd point out that most of us,
> > when we talk about "crypto anarchy" (which is a chapter by itself in
> > Crypto), are not talking about lack of rules. In fact, anarchy can
> > include many rules: protocols, standards, and social routines. Instead,
> > we're talking about lack of *government* rules instituted by force.
> 
> I never said there weren't rules. Anarchy means no central authority, no
> 'arch'. The distinction you gloss is that the rules and protocols are
> TOTALLY VOLUNTARY. The decision to comply is left at the discretion of the
> individual. Some do, some don't.
> 
> > But all of us know better than to take Choate seriously. So we can do
> > what's appropriate in an anarchy, and simply ignore him. Shunning,
> > after all, is more than appropriate: When it comes to loons, it's
> > even necessary.
> 
> Just another example of 'freedom for me but not for thee'. You feel it's
> ok to shun, but not ok to be shuned. What a hypocrite.
> 
> In ANY sort of anarchy the act of shunning must be for something more than
> simply refusing to go along.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 14:34:16 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:34:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.] 
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB2F@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110162519.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> You are confusing two distinct issues: Form and Content.

Your first mistake. They are not distinct. One can not have one without
the other.

> On the Content side, you are essentially correct. I and many others
> find the beliefs you espouse on physics, law, and mathematics 
> idiosyncratic,  peculiar, and often just plain wrong.

And I challenge you to demonstrate the errors. To date not one of these
supposed failures has been demonstrated.

As to having ideas survive it is the reason I post in public forums,
private forums are worthless for this.

> However, as to Form, you're mistaken. Cypherpunks is NOT an 
> anarchy - it's a forum for communication. 'Communication'  shares 
> roots with  'Common' and 'Community' . More than one party is 
> involved. For effective communication to occur,  certain agreed 
> (often tacitly or by default) protocols and standards are adhered 
> to by the parties (note the plural) wishing to communicate.
> 
> This is where you are failing ('What we have here is a failure to
> communicate' :-)

No, a failure to conform. To in fact conform to an arbitrary standard with
reason to its existance. The fact is if you refer to the archives I've
posted forwards in a variety of styles. Without fail each and every one of
them (some of them being suggested now as 'accepted' alternatives - which
is a hoot for me) has come under criticism. In many cases by the same
parties.

> To be specific, your methods of citation of outside sources are
> both burdensome and ineffective.

In your opinion. You say 'potatoe' and I say 'potato'. They are in fact
standard accepted citations methods.

> Consider a very recent example. This morning, you posted an
> note titled: 'CDR: IP & copyright - Somebody with a clue?
> 
> The message consisted of:
> 
> 1.  4 lines of message:
> 
> 	The original article is over on /.. Apparently Baen Books is willing
> to
> 	put their wallet where there mouth is to prove that the current IP
> argument
> 	is doomed. It will be an interesting experiment.
> 
> ...which would have been greatly improved by the sentence: "Baen is putting 
> some of its books on the net for (cheap) downloads."

Get a fucking clue.

> 2. A one line URL (a useful one, BTW).
> 
> 3. 12 lines of sigfile, including a non-working hostname
> (www.ssz.com).

Actually it does work just fine.

> 4. An attached HTML page, which does nothing but put up
> a screen saying 'Baen Free LIbrary', along with a broken
> image link. 

Shouldn't have been any attachment, just the URL. Oh well. Shit happens.

> Jim: Can you explain why you did this?

Can you explain why I should? Why are your beliefs as to posting style,
content, what I or any other member of this find of particular fucking
interest? Demonstrate why any of my actions to date have caused you ANY
sort of harm? Because without harm you've no business asking, let alone
telling them what to be doing or how.

You're exactly the sort of person Cypherpunks are trying to stop.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 15:10:04 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:10:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.]
In-Reply-To: <20010110.145202.319.17.j.fulton@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110170857.446N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:

> Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  You're
> wasting it.

I've told you before, I'm not interested in your body. As to your
bandwidth and it's cost, that's a personal problem. Good luck with it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:04:02 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:04:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ravage.... A man... a mission.... a moron
In-Reply-To: <20010110.152404.319.18.j.fulton@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180148.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:

> BTW, "Form" and "Content" are *not* one and the same.  Of course, unless
> we agree on a basis of logic, it's difficult to argue an issue, isn't it?
> 
> (wait, wait.... let me guess.... your response is going to be, "No it
> isn't.")

No, it's going to be that I didn't say they were identical. I said they
weren't independent/seperate (ie you can't talk about the form of
something until you understand its function and so on), not the same thing
at all.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 15:05:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:05:31 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110165440.446L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010110155646.D27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110180351.0246b0b0@mail.well.com>


As a general rule, mere possession of infringing material is not a crime. 
There are some exceptions, such as stealing the printouts of Tom Clancy's 
unpublished novel, but they are narrow and not that interesting and do not 
advance our understanding, even in Choatian sense, of the topic. --Declan


At 04:57 PM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Oh, certainly there are such cases, such as if you're part of the
> > infringement. But as a general rule, my point is valid, and I'd
> > challenge Choate to provide a cite to the U.S. code that suggests
> > otherwise.
>
>That suggests what is otherwise?
>
>Your claim was that possession of copyright infringed material wasn't a
>crime. You made no (zero, none, nada, null) qualifications. In effect
>simply possessing the item wasn't a crime.
>
>I demonstrated a counter example, that in the case of 'stripped' books
>possession was in fact a crime. I also mentioned the .mp3 situation which
>is another example where possession is in fact considered a crime.
>
>You just want to fight.




From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Wed Jan 10 16:11:35 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:11:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
Message-ID: <200101110011.f0B0BZg24423@rebma.pro-ns.net>




I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
admit a simple mistake.

Go back through the archives and you'll see lots of examples where Choate
makes an error.  I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on many of them
and assume that he exaggerates to make a point.  When someone calls him
on it, rather than admitting that he overstated his case, he makes it
worse.  The quoted material at the bottom of this message is a good
example of the start of one of these.

If you read the archives, you'll find examples of pretty much every
frequent poster to this list over the years posting a retraction or
correction for some minor detail.  You won't find any from Choate.

In the past, I've plonked him, but I found that I missed the entertainment
value.  He's interesting, in the same way a car accident is: you have
no real desire for the victims to be involved, but if it's going to
happen right in front of you, you might as well observe it!



At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
> > an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>
>Hint: WRONG.
>
>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>them in stock can be charged accordingly.
>
>The primary distinction USED TO BE whether there was intent to make money
>off the act. Now the simple desire to want to make copies and perhaps even
>share them is under review. It's not the copy of the book anymore but
>rather simple access to the ideas (which is what copyright isn't about).




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:15:27 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:15:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180441.446R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

> >On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
> >> especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
> >> rights.
> 
> Interestingly, copyright and patent differ on 'unknowingly taking'.
> If (as was recently mentioned) someone dupes some content and gives
> you a copy, you are not responsible -the copier was violating copyright,
> not you.  The copier could 'unknowingly take' by simply mistaking the
> content for public domain.

Yes, you are responsible. Being in possession of a illegaly copied movie,
software, .mp3, CD, book, etc. is in fact a crime.

Copyright is the default, not public domain. So you're saying that if
somebody takes something with intent to steal (even though) it isn't
really stealable then they aren't guilty?

I suspect a jury will not accept the 'I thought it was free' defence.
 
> But patents are different.  If sell you a chip, and you build a board with
> it, and Joe build a system with your board, and that chip turns out to be
> infringing a patent, my chip, your board, Joe's system, everything that
> uses the infringing work is legal toast.  (And could be stopped at the
> border if imported, which happened to an American FPGA vendor who uses
> TSMC.) This is a major practical problem e.g., in the selling of 'cores'.

How is this different, it's still possession (or use) of property
illegaly. Simple ignorance isn't a defence.

> So anyway, its definately possible to 'unknowingly take' IP.

No it isn't. You either develop it independently or you don't. You can
however take it without malice, which is what you're talking about.
Not the same thing at all.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:17:48 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:17:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Declan's book
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110181702.446S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Colin Powell recently got paid $200,000 for a 30-minute off-the-cuff 
> speech on some "why foreigh policy matters" b.s. topic. Of course, it 
> was underwritten by a Lebanese "businessman" said in news reports to 
> have close ties to Syrian intelligence, so do the math. A legal way 
> to buy influence in our strange society. If Colin Powell can give N 
> of these b.s. speeches a year, my thoughts are surely worth $10K for 
> a day or two's worth of writing. Of course, this won't happen.

The market speaks, your time must not be worth the same as his after all.

That must be crushing.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 15:26:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:26:40 -0500
Subject: Refutations Considered Unnecessary
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:57:31PM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <a05010400b68250a586b8@[207.111.241.12]> <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com> <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <20010110182640.A29167@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:57:31PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> And of course there are at least a _dozen_ books on the general issue 
> of "privacy." One of the Kennedy's co-authored one (or at least 
> agreed to have her name put on the cover, perhaps). Whit Diffie 
> co-authored one. And so on. A dozen, at least. Nothing new, either.

Yep. That was Caroline Kennedy, I recall. Good review of privacy
cases, little on tech stuff. I have probably a dozen privacy books on
my bookcases. EPIC publishes a few books (such as their review of
privacy regulations) a year.

> out there. I spend a lot of time in Borders and Bookshop Santa Cruz, 
> two very large and well-stocked bookstores in my town. (Declan can 
> confirm this, though he may not have seen the new Borders yet.) I 
> browse, in the classical sense, the New Books section most times I'm 

Yep. I have been in the new Borders, bought one of this micro-Perl
handbooks there. 

-Declan




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 16:29:14 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:29:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <200101110011.f0B0BZg24423@rebma.pro-ns.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110182503.446U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:

> I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
> a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> admit a simple mistake.

Example please.
 
> Go back through the archives and you'll see lots of examples where Choate
> makes an error.  I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on many of them
> and assume that he exaggerates to make a point.  When someone calls him
> on it, rather than admitting that he overstated his case, he makes it
> worse.  The quoted material at the bottom of this message is a good
> example of the start of one of these.

Give me an example of overstating my case. The reality is that I've in
good faith answered, or at least attempted, to the best of my ability.
I've explained my thinking in detail.

Where are your rebuttals? I wait with hesitant expectation of your
enlightenment...

> If you read the archives, you'll find examples of pretty much every
> frequent poster to this list over the years posting a retraction or
> correction for some minor detail.  You won't find any from Choate.

Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out to
be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
are others.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 15:31:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:31:58 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 01:11:01PM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com> <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]>
Message-ID: <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 01:11:01PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> I hope you don't do this. There have been several of these kinds of 
> collections--a guy at MIT has done at least a couple of them (I 
> forget his name, though three of my short pieces are in one of his 
> books: the books cost $40-60 or so, for a damned paperback, which is 
> why I don't have my own copy. Even at this high price, they don't pay 
> for submissions and they don't even give out copies to contributors!).

As someone who makes the vast bulk of his income from speaking fees, I
wouldn't undertake such a project unless I could pay contributors and
get a generous number of copies to hand out. Seems only fair.

> There's probably a role for a good book on, say, "digital money," 
> with a mix of overview articles and detailed articles. This would be 
> a _lot_ of work, and the editor would need to be well-versed in the 
> field.

Yep, and not something that I'd be that interested in. But a limited
focus would be necessary. Maybe something titled "Crypto Anarchy." :)

-Declan




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 10 15:34:00 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:34:00 -0500
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <20010110155646.D27031@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com>


>On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
>> especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
>> rights.

Interestingly, copyright and patent differ on 'unknowingly taking'.
If (as was recently mentioned) someone dupes some content and gives
you a copy, you are not responsible -the copier was violating copyright,
not you.  The copier could 'unknowingly take' by simply mistaking the
content for public domain.

But patents are different.  If sell you a chip, and you build a board with
it, and Joe build a system with your board, and that chip turns out to be
infringing a patent, my chip, your board, Joe's system, everything that
uses the infringing work is legal toast.  (And could be stopped at the
border if imported, which happened to an American FPGA vendor who uses
TSMC.) This is a major practical problem e.g., in the selling of 'cores'.

So anyway, its definately possible to 'unknowingly take' IP.




 






  








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 17:05:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:05:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: For fun
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110190524.446V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://geekt.org/

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 10 16:06:45 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:06:45 -0500
Subject: Crypto books
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b682795415ac@[207.111.241.40]>
References: <20010110155253.C27031@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010110160551.007e57c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 04:03 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>Very few current books actually are _important_. 

I've found the following two books to be good reading and
even appropriate to this list: The Irish War, Tony Geraghty (c) 2000;
and The Story of Magic by Frank Rowlett (c) 1998.  

_Magic_ is about the career of a high school math teacher who
got into crypto under Friedman, before computers.  He eventually used them,
and there is much discussion about hilariously archaic IBM equiptment,
tabulator plugboards, relay circuit design, a whole chapter devoted to
building a device that performed autoindexed addressing (without the IBM
dudes knowing about it... you're not supposed to hack on the rented stuff..)
They were tossing hollerith cards in front of fans to generate
randomness.  They end up reverse engineering and duplicating a Japanese
cipher machine without plans. 

The book, written from Rowlett's perspective, reads pretty well, 
better than Kahn.  Rowlett describes some of the methods of attack, both
pencil and paper and punched-cards; the punch card operations & recipes are
fascinating to read about and try to figure out the modern equivalent.
It is hard to imagine the tedium that was involved in old cryptanalysis.

Obviously you get more out of the book the more you can relate to
the problems he faced -perfect for readers here.  



_Irish War_ is about the past and present north irish independence 
movement.  Its pretty fascinating reading about how the IRA and
British continually refined their practices and tools.  There's some
tech meat about surveillance, running a network, and homemade
military tech.  The IRA had metalshops to make their own weapons and
propellants and explosives, and had made their own recoilless rocket 
and HEAT warheads.  You get the same sense of intricately fucked historical
hatreds that you do if you read a brief history of yugoslavia.

You learn that the Brit SS set up a clothing cleaning service (p 90)
and ran forensic analysis on the collected clothes before cleaning.
Shades of the FBI's covert house cleaning service...or Boris's computer
repair shop.  

As a result of the War, North Ireland is set up like a demo room
for Louie Freeh's wet dreams.  This book might be 'important' for
documenting that.





 






  








From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 16:24:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:24:07 -0500
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110121948.446E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b682aab3e8eb@[207.111.241.18]>


At 6:34 PM -0500 1/10/01, David Honig wrote:
>  >On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 12:22:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>  You are if you take it knowingly (can you take something unknowingly?) and
>>>  especially if with the intent to defraud the copyright holder of their
>>>  rights.
>
>Interestingly, copyright and patent differ on 'unknowingly taking'.
>If (as was recently mentioned) someone dupes some content and gives
>you a copy, you are not responsible -the copier was violating copyright,
>not you.  The copier could 'unknowingly take' by simply mistaking the
>content for public domain.
>
>But patents are different.  If sell you a chip, and you build a board with
>it, and Joe build a system with your board, and that chip turns out to be
>infringing a patent, my chip, your board, Joe's system, everything that
>uses the infringing work is legal toast.  (And could be stopped at the
>border if imported, which happened to an American FPGA vendor who uses
>TSMC.) This is a major practical problem e.g., in the selling of 'cores'.
>
>So anyway, its definately possible to 'unknowingly take' IP.

As this isn't the Cyberia-L list, thankfully, I won't try to dig up 
legal cites (even those accessible with Google)..

Item: There _have_ been cases where copyrighted material resulted in 
"infringing works" becoming, in your words, "toast." For example, 
cases where entire runs of about-to-be-distributed or 
still-on-bookseller's-shelves books were recalled because the books 
contained the IP of others.

Item: Even more often reported are the cases where videos are seized 
because of copyright violations.

The fact that the "recipient" of the material didn't "know" the 
violations had occurred does not let him off the hook. A video 
distributor with 10,000 bootleg copies of "The Matrix" in his 
warehouses is not off the hook even if he didn't "know" the videos 
were pirated. If he really didn't know, he probably won't face 
prosecution, but he definitely faces the "toast" situation with 
regard to having the videos seized.

Item: In many ways, the case with _patent_ violations is actually 
_looser_. For example, consider the case of the Kodak instant 
photography system. Courts found that the Kodak product violated 
Polaroid's patents. Kodak withdrew the product line and offered 
compensation to those who bought the Kodak system. Did stores with 
inventories of the Kodak camera face seizure of their infringing 
inventory in the same way that stores with inventories of bootleg 
copies of a video face seizure? No. Nor were those who had purchased 
the Kodak system told that they were in possession of stolen property.

I'm not disputing the general tenor of your comments about copyright 
vs. patent law, just noting some interesting examples where the 
opposite seems to apply, where violations of copyright law face 
stronger sanctions than violators of patent law do.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Wed Jan 10 17:31:57 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:31:57 -0600
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:29:14 CST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110182503.446U-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <200101110131.f0B1Vvc25567@rebma.pro-ns.net>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
> > a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> > admit a simple mistake.
> 
> Example please.


No problem.  A good example was thoughtfully provided by you quite readily:

>  
> Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out to
> be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
> are others.





This is somewhat like feeding the trolls, so I'll be content to quit
here.  I didn't think Choate was dumb enough to step on his dick so
quickly.  I can see I overestimated him.


He's not nearly the sport that David Sternlight was.




From bpayne37 at home.com  Wed Jan 10 18:49:55 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:49:55 -0700
Subject: order of vazquez?
Message-ID: <3A5D1F53.CA1E029E@home.com>


cypherpunks at cyberpass.net

Each time a do a google seach on what you've posted about what we're up
to

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/
http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/
http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/

I cringe. Allahu Ahkbar?

I merely learned too much as a result of my jobs. As you might guess, I
don't like the creeps.

I can't get the forth link to work
http://209.211.36.9/users/billp/forth2.htm

I want to get on to other things now.  Up-wind, of course.

best
http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/menlo.html








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 18:08:17 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:08:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: <200101110131.f0B1Vvc25567@rebma.pro-ns.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features define
> > > a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> > > admit a simple mistake.
> > 
> > Example please.
> 
> 
> No problem.  A good example was thoughtfully provided by you quite readily:
> 
> >  
> > Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out to
> > be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
> > are others.

But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
.308) IS a .308 and not .223.

Now back to your point, your example please?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 19:12:54 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:12:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <3A5D1A03.363B49D2@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> > .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> 
>    I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
> What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
> (mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify, 
> Jim?

Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.

It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
gun).

Honestly, I never could figure out exactly what was going on there. That's
why I finally dropped it. I just did some searches on google and didn't
find anything helpful.

Hope that helps.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 10 18:27:35 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:27:35 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D1A03.363B49D2@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Jim Choate wrote:

> But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> .308) IS a .308 and not .223.

   I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
(mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify, Jim?





From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Wed Jan 10 20:00:13 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:00:13 -0600
Subject: Jim's posting practices [ Was: Re: to Jim.]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110170857.446N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B6828BED.5E5%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/10/01 5:10 PM, Jim Choate at ravage at ssz.com wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:
> 
>> Harm?  I sell my time.  You're wasting it.  I buy my bandwidth.  You're
>> wasting it.
> 
> I've told you before, I'm not interested in your body. As to your
> bandwidth and it's cost, that's a personal problem. Good luck with it.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
> smaller group must first understand it.
> 
> "Stranger Suns"
> George Zebrowski
> 
> The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
I have a suggestion:  Jim is free to ignore us and we are free to ignore
him.  If you don't like what he says....ignore him.  You can even set up a
rule to automatically delete any of his notes once it hits your mailbox.
How about posting something that has to do with cyphers?

Bryan Green  




From bgreen at conwaycorp.net  Wed Jan 10 20:02:58 2001
From: bgreen at conwaycorp.net (Bryan Green)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:02:58 -0600
Subject: Ravage.... A man... a mission.... a moron
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180148.446Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <B6828C92.5E6%bgreen@conwaycorp.net>


on 1/10/01 6:04 PM, Jim Choate at ravage at ssz.com wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Joel M Fulton wrote:
> 
>> BTW, "Form" and "Content" are *not* one and the same.  Of course, unless
>> we agree on a basis of logic, it's difficult to argue an issue, isn't it?
>> 
>> (wait, wait.... let me guess.... your response is going to be, "No it
>> isn't.")
> 
> No, it's going to be that I didn't say they were identical. I said they
> weren't independent/seperate (ie you can't talk about the form of
> something until you understand its function and so on), not the same thing
> at all.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
> smaller group must first understand it.
> 
> "Stranger Suns"
> George Zebrowski
> 
> The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
> Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
> www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
> -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
Actually, you can intelligently talk about form without function.  I assume
you must have never studied art or any eastern religion?

Bryan Green





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Jan 10 20:22:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:22:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: G3 chatter...
In-Reply-To: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110221311.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>    Oh, god, that goes waaay back. That's right, the HK G3 is a clone of the 
> CETME. Although I think, IIRC, that the CETME used the bolt from the German 
> (WWII era) MG-38/42 series of light machine guns, so it's not that the 
> Spanish really invented it. And, as a matter of fact, most of the CETME 
> people were postwar Deutsch refugees protected by Franco anyway.

True enough. Most of the European weapons designed through the early 80's
were either German or Russian based it seems to me. I've been looking at
the FN P90 for a while.

>     Nice weapons, all of them. Did you ever see the CETME light-weight 
> version of the MG-3 in .223? What a sweetie! Dual drums.

I don't know. I'm familiar with the dual drum setup.

>    Gotta' hand it to the krauts -- best damn weapons in the world. I could 
> care less what Smith & Colt do, as long as HK, SIG, and Walther keep on 
> doin' what they do!

I certainly like HK. Sig makes nice pistols. Haven't kept up with the
latest Walther stuff.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Jan 10 19:58:06 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:58:06 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


   Oh, god, that goes waaay back. That's right, the HK G3 is a clone of the CETME.
Although I think, IIRC, that the CETME used the bolt from the German (WWII era)
MG-38/42 series of light machine guns, so it's not that the Spanish really
invented it. And, as a matter of fact, most of the CETME people were postwar
Deutsch refugees protected by Franco anyway.
    Nice weapons, all of them. Did you ever see the CETME light-weight version of
the MG-3 in .223? What a sweetie! Dual drums.
   Gotta' hand it to the krauts -- best damn weapons in the world. I could care
less what Smith & Colt do, as long as HK, SIG, and Walther keep on doin' what they
do!



Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > > But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> > > .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> >
> >    I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
> > What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
> > (mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify,
> > Jim?
>
> Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
>
> It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
> used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
> standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
> selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
> reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
> pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
> gun).
>
> Honestly, I never could figure out exactly what was going on there. That's
> why I finally dropped it. I just did some searches on google and didn't
> find anything helpful.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------








From ktsolis at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 10 23:29:15 2001
From: ktsolis at mindspring.com (Kristen Tsolis)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 23:29:15 -0800
Subject: to Jim. 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110080534.446a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBJMDPAKJKJBKLMHOGGELECKAA.ktsolis@mindspring.com>


sigh.

As we have already hammered this thread to death (i.e. Jim's inconsideration
in the guise of free speech) I will refrain from any further posts on the
topic.

Have a nice day.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at ssz.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 6:09 AM
To: Kristen Tsolis
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: to Jim.



Hi Kristen,

Please don't send me private email. If you would like to have a discussion
then please leave it on whatever 'list' you happen to be refering to. If
you find this request strange then perhaps you should go to jya.com and
ponder his current situation. Additionaly I join public mailing lists to
public conversation, not to foster further private ones.

As to the email, I will forward what is relevant and convenient for me to
submit at the time. I make no promises about format or attachments, only
that if you follow the URL it will be worth your time. Only you can judge
that value however. Do as you see fit.

Have a nice day.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Kristen Tsolis wrote:

> HeaderDear Jim,
>
> Thank you for posting relevant and interesting articles to the list.
>
> I cringe from rehashing what others have already written, but if you could
> paste both the URL and the text of interesting tidbits directly into your
> posts, I would probable read your posts more often.
>
> I also prefer not to receive HTML in my email.
>
> Thanks, Jim.
>
> -Kristen
>
>
>




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 21:06:57 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:06:57 -0500
Subject: G3s and HK-91s and FALs
In-Reply-To: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010402b682e4be45e8@[207.111.241.45]>


At 10:58 PM -0500 1/10/01, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>    Oh, god, that goes waaay back. That's right, the HK G3 is a clone 
>of the CETME.
>Although I think, IIRC, that the CETME used the bolt from the German 
>(WWII era)
>MG-38/42 series of light machine guns, so it's not that the Spanish really
>invented it. And, as a matter of fact, most of the CETME people were postwar
>Deutsch refugees protected by Franco anyway.
>     Nice weapons, all of them. Did you ever see the CETME 
>light-weight version of
>the MG-3 in .223? What a sweetie! Dual drums.
>    Gotta' hand it to the krauts -- best damn weapons in the world. I 
>could care
>less what Smith & Colt do, as long as HK, SIG, and Walther keep on 
>doin' what they
>do!

I have no idea what the hell Choate is foaming about now.

The HK (or H-K, or Heckler and Koch, since quibblers are amongst us) 
G3 was their entry into the NATO standardization effort in the early 
50s. NATO was planning to standardize on the 7.62 mm NATO round for 
its main battle rifle. (The length was 54 mm, hence "7.62 x 54 NATO." 
Henceforth, I'll skip reporting the length. You can look it up if 
interested.)

Heckler and Koch submitted a model. As you say, based on the Spanish 
CETME rifle, itself based on one of the late-war Sturmgewehr efforts 
(G-43 or somesuch though don't bother quoting or correcting me...it's 
in the books).

It was introduced in 7.62 mm NATO, very, very close to .308 
Winchester. (Some say there are headspace differences, though I have 
used 7.62 mm NATO in my Remington 700 VSSF, ostensibly chambered for 
.308 Winchester, and I have used .308 Winchester in my Federal Arms 
FA-91/G3, ostensibly chambered for 7.62 mm NATO.

(By the way, the Brits had already done much work on a battle rifle 
to be used with a round somewhat smaller than the 7.62 mm. But the 
U.S. decided the 7.62 mm was to be the round, and what the U.S. 
wanted in those years was what happened. As it turns out, the U.S. 
decided only a decade or so later that the 7.62 mm was just too much 
of a round for most soldiers, and for intended uses, and so adopted 
the 5.56 mm in the form of the M-16. Some think it was too light. In 
hindsight, it's really too bad the British efforts were blocked by 
U.S. obstinacy. The 7 mm (roughly equivalent to the .270 Winchester 
in use today) would have made a good compromise.)

The G3 is, of course, the usual fully-automatic-capable rifle. In the 
United States, and perhaps in other countries, the 
semi-automatic-only version of the G3 was called the HK-91.

(I almost bought one in 1975, and now wish that I had. I could have 
bought one in California as late as 1987 or so, and I also wish I 
had. What once sold for $300 then sold for $600 and now is 
unobtainable in California, legally.)

In addition, HK developed a variant of the G3 chambered for the 5.56 
mm NATO (again, closely similar to the .223 Remington). They called 
this the HK-93 in the U.S.

And HK took the same roller-delayed action of the G3/HK-91/HK-93 and 
used it for a 9mm version which comes in various forms, such as the 
MP-5. In the U.S. the semi-automatic version of the MP-5 basic model 
came in two flavors: the HK-94 carbine and the SP-89 pistol, 
sometimes referred to as an "assault pistol." (A travesty of a name, 
but there you go.)

California made sales of the rifles and carbines impossible to 
civilian end-user buyers after the Stockton shootings of the late 
80s. The SP-89 was purchasable up until the mid-90s. I acquired one 
in 1991.

The Federal import bans of around 1994 made the prices of all of 
these skyrocket, to where a mint condition HK-91 is around $3500 and 
a mint condition SP-89 is around $2500-3000. Sales in California (and 
maybe New Jersey, Hawaii, and other such places) are not permitted to 
civilian end-users.

However, the way the California laws and Federal import ban laws were 
written allowed certain rifles and handguns to be built with many 
foreign-made parts (up to 7 such parts) with the remainer U.S.-made 
parts. And thus the "clone" was born.

(By the way, the post-Stockton ban in California only dealt with 
certain _named_ models. And thus a renamed Colt rifle could be sold 
as the "H-BAR" instead of the "AR-15." Likewise, Bushmasters and 
OlyArms and Armalites.)

Anyway, one of the clones of the HK-91 is the Federal Arms FA-91. 
Another is the Hesse G3. Both use receivers (the main part that holds 
the bolt carrier and the trigger group) made in the U.S., but barrels 
and other such parts from disassembled surplus G3s from numerous 
foreign countries. The Federal Arms variant uses an aluminum 
receiver, a la the AR-15/M-16 rifle, and the Hesse uses a sheet metal 
receiver, a la the actual G3.

I have one of the Federal Arms clones. Shoots very well, takes 
standard G3/HK-91 magazines (of which I have 20).

The same applies to the FAL, the astounding rifle built originally by 
Fabrique Nationale in Belgium and adopted by even more countries than 
the G3 was adopted by. (My recollection from my copy of "The FAL 
Book" is that the design of the FAL was originally designated the 
"G1." Something else was designated the "G2." And the HK design based 
on the CETME was designated the "G3." This was for the NATO trials. 
After the G1 won the trials and was selected as NATO's main battle 
rifle, Fabrique Nationale resumed calling it the FAL and HK just 
called their rifle the G3. While the FAL was preferred, the G3 was 
also considered acceptable. And the U.S. threw a spanner into the 
works by deciding to ignore the trial results and to adopt its own 
Springfield model as the M-14. And less than 10 years later, further 
confusing matters by switching to the 5.56 mm M-16.

FALs are being cloned as well, thus bypassing California's rules 
banning "the FAL." I have three of these, all based on Brazilian (or 
Argentinian, I forget which) receivers from IMBEL and enough U.S. 
made bits and pieces to make them legal.

Fucking burrowcrats were tearing their hair out over all of these 
clones evading their bullshit laws.

Oh, and I acquired 40 (yes, 40) magazines for my FAL clones. You see, 
we all knew that California had passed a ban on high-capacity mags, 
effective January 1, 2000. Gun dealers across the country were only 
too happy to help those who planned ahead. And since the FAL had been 
a main battle rifle in conflicts all around the world, from Zimbabwe 
to Viet Nam to Borneo, magazines were inexpensive. I paid $8 each for 
most of my magazines, mostly in "unused" condition.

Which brings us to the present. All such rifles are now impossible 
for Californians to buy legally. We even have to register them. I 
dutifully registered mine. It's bullshit, and perhaps someday those 
who violated the Second Amendment with these laws will be tried and 
convicted, but that's the way it goes.

As to what Choate was debating, only he and the other residents of 
Choate Prime (aka the Austin Halfway House for the Deeply Disturbed) 
know what is going on in his head.

The HK-91 has been an accepted name for the semi-automatic version of 
the G3 for nearly 30 years, perhaps longer. The G3 is often used as 
shorthand for the class of rifles, even if they're the semi-auto 
variants. The HK93 is the accepted name for the 5.56mm/.223 variant. 
Sometimes some people call both the "G3," due to the basic family 
type of both weapons.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 00:42:26 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:42:26 -0800
Subject: Bell Case Subpoena
In-Reply-To: <20010109165541.C6844@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>
 <01010817350909.03765@reality.eng.savvis.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20010109123311.009d3c60@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010111004226.01a57e30@idiom.com>


At 04:55 PM 1/9/01 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 12:33:11PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> I'd think there'd be serious problems with most of the evidence
>> in this case being hearsay, except stuff specifically
>> posted by Jim Bell.
>
>Remember that the subpoena delivered to JYA is for a grand jury
>appearance - not trial testimony (yet). 

Oh, right, good point.

>The "you can't trust email headers because they might be forged"
>argument didn't go far in CJ's trial, and they're not likely to
>fare much better elsewhere. The criminal trial system is perfectly 
>comfortable with evidence whose theoretical (or actual) perfection
>and purity are less than ideal.

But haven't there been people actively forging Bell's headers?
I forget who was forging whom in the CJ mess.
(And even that's not counting Detweiler.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Wed Jan 10 22:57:36 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:57:36 -0600
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:08:17 CST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <200101110657.f0B6vac27124@rebma.pro-ns.net>




Allow me to summarize:

1) I claim you can't admit an error.
2) You disagree, and ask me for an example.
3) You provide an example yourself.
   3a) Your example dates back nearly three years.
   3b) In your example, you claim you were right all along, and Tim
       was wrong.


Let's take it from there.  Either a) You were right and Tim was wrong,
in which case your example isn't an example of admitting an error,
or b) You were wrong, and Tim was right, and right now, you're showing
yourself incapable of admitting that.

If you'd have left it at "Back in 1997, I admitted that Tim was
right about the G3", you'd have had me.  I claimed you never
admit a single error, and you'd have found a counter example to an
all-encompassing declaration.

But you COULDN'T leave it at that.
You were compelled to add "I turned out to be right"...

And that pretty much confirms what I was claiming to begin with.

If NOMAD here was any good at logic, we'd be beaming him out to
the minimum safe distance right now.


My old man was often heard to quip: "I made a mistake once....
I thought I was wrong, but I wasn't."  

That second sentence is the punch line, Choate.  Just FYI.



On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I'm not sure if anyone has made a canonical list of what features defin
e
> > > > a crank, but one of them has just got to be a complete inability to
> > > > admit a simple mistake.
> > > 
> > > Example please.
> > 
> > 
> > No problem.  A good example was thoughtfully provided by you quite readily:
> > 
> > >  
> > > Actually you will. Does the string 'G3' mean anything (and I turned out t
o
> > > be right even though I backed down so Tim May would get his way). There
> > > are others.
> 
> But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> 
> Now back to your point, your example please?
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 21:58:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:58:39 -0500
Subject: Declan's book
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 03:48:53PM -0800
References: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com> <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <01011010543700.11747@reality.eng.savvis.net> <200101101730.MAA19989@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <20010110154645.B27031@cluebot.com> <a05010407b6827db01bfd@[207.111.241.40]> <20010110183158.B29167@cluebot.com> <a05010403b682a18dc2aa@[207.111.241.18]>
Message-ID: <20010111005839.A455@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 03:48:53PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> Colin Powell recently got paid $200,000 for a 30-minute off-the-cuff 
> speech on some "why foreigh policy matters" b.s. topic. Of course, it 
> was underwritten by a Lebanese "businessman" said in news reports to 
> have close ties to Syrian intelligence, so do the math. A legal way 
> to buy influence in our strange society. If Colin Powell can give N 
> of these b.s. speeches a year, my thoughts are surely worth $10K for 
> a day or two's worth of writing. Of course, this won't happen.

Ah, your output for two days is not worth $10K, at least based on a
publisher's estimation of market value. Sadly, politics may not be as
rewarding as investing. *

-Declan

* Unless you're Colin Powell





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jan 10 22:00:36 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:00:36 -0500
Subject: G3s and HK-91s and FALs
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b682e4be45e8@[207.111.241.45]>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b682fa9e69a2@[207.111.241.45]>



I got curious about Choate's latest mention of the "G3" issue, so I 
did some searching of the archives. Then it all came back, how Choate 
was claiming the "G3" was the same as the HK-93 rather than the 
HK-91, and how it is the preferred sniper weapon.

(In fact, HK sells a version of the HK-91, or semi-auto-only G3, as 
the "PSG-1." Definitely a .308 Winchester (7.62x54 NATO), definitely 
NOT a .223 Remington.)

Here's the original response I wrote. It covers much the same ground 
I just wrote about in my post on this topic just before this one.

Of course, what Choate says may be true in Choate Prime, even if not 
true in _our_ universe.


--begin post from archives--


To: cypherpunks at ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
* Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
* From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
* Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:46:25 -0700
* In-Reply-To: <199712231551.JAA25031 at einstein.ssz.com>
* Sender: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

------------------------------------------------------------------------



At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>  Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
>>  From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>>  Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
>
>>   I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
>>  weapon.
>
>Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
>Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
>pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
>is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
>91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
>the H&K home page...

Not much point in arguing with Jim Choate on this one. The G3 is the
orginal name (Gewehr). The G3KA4 is one of the .308 models currentlt being
sold.

For the past couple of decades the naming system has also included "HK -9x"
names, with this breakdown by caliber:

HK-91, the .308 model, aka the G3-xx models. Also, the variants like the
SAR-9 from Springfield, the Argentine and Greek versions, etc.

HK-93, the .223 model, much less common than the HK-91.

HK-94, 9mm model (which becomes the MP-5 and all of its variants and the
SP-89 as changes are made to the barrel length, stock configuration, etc.

(I know these things quite well, having almost bought an HK-91 back before
they came under new restrictions, and then having bought an SP-89.)

But if Jim doesn't believe me, consider this quote from the rec.guns FAQ:

"The HK series of weapons commonly avaiable in the US consists of the HK-91
(7.62 Nato) HK-93 (5.56 Nato) and HK-94 (9mm Nato). All
these rifles share common features, namely, the locking system consists of
a roller locked inertial bolt, which operates as a delayed direct blow
back action."

>
>>  For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
>
>Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay
>particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the
>break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup
>or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only
>thing these shows are good for.

Getting one's knowledge from, as you say, silly police shows, is not such a
good idea. For one thing, _entry teams_ are NOT snipers!

Go to some actual sniping sources. Or try some of the Web pages, such as
http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/ or http://sniper-store.com/ for
insights. Also, as I mentioned John Plaster's excellent 1993 book, "The
Ultimate Sniper." He discusses semiautomatics and their disadvantages in
price and simplicity compared to bolt-actions.

Again, entry team work is limited to close range. Sniping is quite
different, with ranges from a hundred yards on up to a thousand yards,
sometimes even more. The average police sniper takes his shot at a hundred
yards or less (less is always better). But he'll want the most accurate
piece, not a semi-auto.

Lon Horiuchi, the sniper at Ruby Ridge, used a bolt-action to take his shot.



>Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point...
>

This'll be my last response to Jim on this issue. It appears he's talking
about a completely different thing than what I am calling, and what is
commonly called by others, sniping.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

--end post from archives--
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From declan at well.com  Wed Jan 10 22:00:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:00:36 -0500
Subject: can you take something unknowingly? (was Re: IP, forwarded
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180441.446R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 06:15:27PM -0600
References: <3.0.6.32.20010110152808.007e3750@pop.sprynet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110180441.446R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010111010036.B455@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 06:15:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Yes, you are responsible. Being in possession of a illegaly copied movie,
> software, .mp3, CD, book, etc. is in fact a crime.
>
Cite, please, to the relevant section of federal criminal law?

Oh, wait. You're just a blowhard. Nevermind.

-Declan




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 01:01:13 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:01:13 -0800
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110124708.02465b70@mail.well.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110113350.446w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <20010110122335.B24697@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010111010113.01a57a90@idiom.com>


At 11:36 AM 1/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate replied to Declan's >> > post:
>> > (Hint: U.S. copyright law does not make mere possession or archiving
>> > an offense. Try distribution, performance, etc.)
>>
>>Hint: WRONG.
>>
>>Simply possessing a paperback book that has had its cover removed as a
>>sign of 'destroyed' status is in fact a crime. Used book stores that have
>>them in stock can be charged accordingly.

At 12:54 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Anyway, Jim is conflating physical control over an instantiation of IP with 
>the rights conferred by IP law. If someone copies Microsoft Word (or a Tom 
>Clancy novel) onto a CDROM and gives it to me, I am not liable.

The paperback book example has nothing to do with intellectual property -
it's about real property, the dead-tree portion of the book that's left
when the bookstore mails the front cover back to the distributor 
for credit and claims the rest of the book has been destroyed.
Somebody, I think Jim, incorrectly said this was an issue about royalties,
which would be IP-related, but it's not - royalties are what the 
publisher pays the author when the book gets sold, while this is about
what the bookstore does or doesn't pay the wholesaler when the book
does or doesn't get sold.  (I'm not sure which legal rules cover it -
fraud, tort, conversion, maybe theft by the store, so possibly
possession of stolen property by the purchaser or other recipient.)

However, that doesn't mean Declan's correct :-)
Before the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, he probably would have been,
but the DMCA is a vague ill-defined mess of evil intentions that
are increasingly being expanded (or at least people are attempting to
expand them; how much holds up in court remains to be seen.)
The DeCSS cases are a relatively direct use.  The Scientology claims
against E-Bay for using electronic tools (their auction system) to
violate their intellectual property constraints (by helping
ex-Scientologists sell used E-Meters to people who haven't paid
the Church of Scientology for their trade secret religious materials)
is a way blatant stretch, but seem to have been enough to intimidate E-Bay.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From aviz at bigfoot.com  Wed Jan 10 15:21:52 2001
From: aviz at bigfoot.com (avi)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:21:52 +0200
Subject: !MAKE $30,000 IN THE NEXT 40 TO 60 DAYS
Message-ID: <200101102321.AIW22321@odin.inter.net.il>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jan 10 22:29:41 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:29:41 -0500
Subject: [spam score 5.20/10.0 -pobox] Re: IP, forwarded posts, and
In-Reply-To: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010110222907.00b0f690@idiom.com>


Heh.  I'd been assuming the original 
	"Does the string 'G3' mean anything..."
question was going to be about Macintoshes or something :-)

Meanwhile, the spam filters at pobox.com suddenly decided
that almost everything posted to Cypherpunks or Cyberia-L
this evening rates a  [spam score 5.20/10.0 -pobox],
so in standard Choatean fashion, I figure I ought to leave it
in the mail headers like his CDR: internal-use fields.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 04:11:43 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:11:43 -0500
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110200608.446X-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3A5D1A03.363B49D2@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3A5DA262.46EE26B9@ricardo.de>


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> > But it isn't an example of my mistake. A HK G3 (and the non HK G3 is also
> > .308) IS a .308 and not .223.
> 
>    I'm not attacking, just interested. I'm extremely familiar with the HK G3.
> What is the "non-HK G3"? I've seen a clone produced here in de mudderland
> (mutter?? Tom?), but didn't really consider that "non-HK". Want to clarify, Jim?

"mutterland" would be the right german equivalent of "mother country",
but I don't think anyone's ever used it. eh, maybe a few feminists. :)

must correct that. I just put it on google to check, and the term does
seem to be in use actually. weird, I've never heard it in conversation
so far.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 05:20:51 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:20:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: <200101110657.f0B6vac27124@rebma.pro-ns.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111071909.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Mike Holmes wrote:

> Allow me to summarize:
> 
> 1) I claim you can't admit an error.
> 2) You disagree, and ask me for an example.
> 3) You provide an example yourself.
>    3a) Your example dates back nearly three years.
>    3b) In your example, you claim you were right all along, and Tim
>        was wrong.

I'm under no compulsion to prove YOUR case. You claim that I'm wrong much
of the time. Let's see one of my claimed failures. Demostrate why it is
incorrect.

This is your hypothesis, let's see your work.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 05:25:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:25:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111072333.446g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> kind of ammo they fire.

Thanks but don't put yourself out, it isn't the issue under question. The
only question of interest is who produced the non-HK 'G3' that the Germany
Army used for about a year back in the early 90's (say 90-92?). And it's
completely pedantic at this point.

Thanks for the offer.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From rsalz at caveosystems.com  Thu Jan 11 05:22:01 2001
From: rsalz at caveosystems.com (Rich Salz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:22:01 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com> <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com> <3A5D7B75.2C69D0E2@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DB379.E14E77EB@caveosystems.com>


> Similar experiences here, we have an ASN.1 encoder/decoder in 8k.

At CertCo we used a slightly modified version of the Umich BER decoder
that
can now be found within openldap.  I don't know how big it was, but it
fit
into a Chrysalis card with a whole bunch of other certco firmware.
	/r$




From rsalz at caveosystems.com  Thu Jan 11 05:34:55 2001
From: rsalz at caveosystems.com (Rich Salz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:55 -0500
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com> <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DB67F.158C4BB0@caveosystems.com>

> Encoding ASN.1 really eats space though, because of the nested nature
> of complex ASN.1... unless you do some tricks like I did in US patent
> 6,111,660.

It sure looks like the Umich LDAP library is prior art which invalidates
most, if not all, of the independant claims.  (At least 1 and 6, which
are the key ones.)  This library was documented in RFC 1823, published
in August 1995.
	/r$




From mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net  Thu Jan 11 08:20:33 2001
From: mycroftxxx at rebma.pro-ns.net (Mike Holmes)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:20:33 -0600
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:20:51 CST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111071909.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <200101111620.f0BGKXc30175@rebma.pro-ns.net>


On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> I'm under no compulsion to prove YOUR case. You claim that I'm wrong much
> of the time. Let's see one of my claimed failures. Demostrate why it is
> incorrect.
> 
> This is your hypothesis, let's see your work.


I've explained it twice, now.  You're just not getting it.

You're not even understanding what I claimed in the first place.




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Jan 11 07:23:59 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:23:59 -0500
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
In-Reply-To: <3A5D9C7E.61AC6E72@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEFNCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I respectfully submit to you:

1.  Ralph does not represent me or my own views.
2.  His 1960's views of the industrial society view of government, a nation
and corporations do not, imho, apply to the internet or information society.
3.  Number 1 and 2 are worth mentioning again :)

I do agree with you that in general most people are concerned with their own
day-to-day lives and cannot or don't care to understand how decisions made
in Europe or in Washington, DC regarding the internet do, or could, affect
themselves or those they know. I don't know how to solve this problem, but
my own observation is the media is quite capable of whipping people into a
frenzy (perhaps as a distraction to the daily chore of worrying about
whether there is enough or not there is enough jelly in the pantry).  I
certainly don't believe an 'egalitarian elitist' (is there such a thing?)
like Ralph can solve our problems.  Observations:

- in the case of standards and practices, corporations will charge through
and push standards and practices which enable the growth of their revenues.
In their perception they are filling the voids standards bodies and
legislative bodies leave open.  Shame on standards bodies for taking so long
to approve protocols, and creating the kind of research and peer review
environment which rivals even mathematics research (which involves years.)
Shame on legislative bodies who do not try to fully understand our new
society and rush to pass laws which are awkward and unworkable.
Corporations innovate and want to move forward; waiting years for peer
review is not realistic for many standards (I'm referring especially to
layer 4 protocols and above in the case of the ip stack).  Imagine if
Napster had waited for the RIAA to come around to a new way of music
distribution...or waited for the IETF to come up with a peer-reviewed method
of peer-to-peer file sharing.  In many ways Napster acted like a corporation
(albeit with a different motivation).
- corporations and lobbying groups represent not a single entity (the
corporation), but a group of people who are employed by the company and the
shareholders of the company.  Perhaps this is the .1% of the people you are
referring to.  Few things motivate people as much as money does.  Oh, and
free music is also apparently a great motivator.
- for the rest of us not necessarily motivated by money the key method of
influence is participation.  Participation through corporations (change from
within is sometimes not difficult to achieve); participation as a
significant contributer to a movement or project (linux for example); or
participation by creating a new kind of application which drives change.

Anyway i'm frightened that people who are supposed to get it (dyson, nader,
etc.) and don't are making the decisions.  At least with a corporation you
can buy shares, go to a shareholder meeting and speak your mind.  How do you
reverse poor judgement in an individual?
pz
btw I certainly don't think I get it any more than anyone else...I've just
not heard anyone who has presented a world view that makes sense from top to
bottom (maybe there is no comprehensive world view).

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 6:44 AM
To: Phillip H. Zakas
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos



"Phillip H. Zakas" wrote:
>
> Not to worry.  Ralph is only momentarily distracted.  Just wait for the
new
> administration to start chopping down thousand-year-old forests (and
> squishing some photogenic "poster animal" in the process).
>

as a matter of fact, he DOES have a point. consumers have become the
weaker part of the market food chain because they are not organized and
because they ARE sheep. they'll cry murder every time you steal
something from them, but never actually do something, and the few who do
are too isolated to be even noticed.
corporations, on the other hand, have been far more intelligent. from
MPAA/RIAA straight to WTO they understood that lobby groups can increase
their influence greatly and turn the playing field to their advantage.
it's only fair to reply in kind and organize the consumers. or rather:
the 0.1% of them who give a damn.





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 11 11:35:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:35:56 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <a05010407b683b765c3f7@[207.111.241.45]>


At 1:12 PM +0100 1/11/01, Tom wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>  Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
>>
>>  It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
>>  used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
>>  standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
>>  selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
>>  reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
>>  pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
>>  gun).
>
>a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
>(he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
>exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
>kind of ammo they fire.

On Choate's point above, it is not FAL (a rifle, but I assume Choate 
must mean the maker of the FAL, Fabrique Nationale, now owned by 
another company, IIRC) who are making a caseless ammo rifle. Rather, 
it is in fact H-K. The G11 has been in development for close to 30 
years now.

(H-K are _also_ owned by another company. Last I heard, a British 
company bought H-K, though the factories and design groups remain in 
Germany.)

Most NATO countries have now adopted some variant of the 5.56 mm 
cartridge, in either M-16-type variants or in bullpup designs like 
the excellent Steyr AUG or the newer HK G36 (with a civilian model, 
the SL8). Neither the caseless ammo of the H-K G11 not the 
flechette-firing prototypes are getting wide acceptance.

And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again 
recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62 
mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at 
least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate 
like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say 
"See, I was RIGHT!")

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From kaaneone at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 11 11:45:56 2001
From: kaaneone at yahoo.com (Kaane One)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:45:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Radius Hacks
Message-ID: <20010111194556.68469.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com>


Anyone know of any exploitable vulnerablilities in
Radius Server? I'm on a project and their looking into
deploying Radius, whereas I'm reccomending TACACS+...

TNKS

/kaan30n3

=====
kaaneone
t3knikal op3rativ3
d3pt. of mystikal awareness and overstanding
777 ahknaton plc
luxor, egypt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 03:43:58 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:43:58 +0100
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGEENCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D9C7E.61AC6E72@ricardo.de>


"Phillip H. Zakas" wrote:
> 
> Not to worry.  Ralph is only momentarily distracted.  Just wait for the new
> administration to start chopping down thousand-year-old forests (and
> squishing some photogenic "poster animal" in the process).
> 

as a matter of fact, he DOES have a point. consumers have become the
weaker part of the market food chain because they are not organized and
because they ARE sheep. they'll cry murder every time you steal
something from them, but never actually do something, and the few who do
are too isolated to be even noticed.
corporations, on the other hand, have been far more intelligent. from
MPAA/RIAA straight to WTO they understood that lobby groups can increase
their influence greatly and turn the playing field to their advantage.
it's only fair to reply in kind and organize the consumers. or rather:
the 0.1% of them who give a damn.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 03:49:24 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:49:24 +0100
Subject: The Register - The Conscience of a Hacker
References: <3A5CB6E9.74556E5E@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D9DC4.14225023@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> The article written by "The Mentor" (If you see Loyd tell him ravage says
> Hi!)has raised its head again...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15958.html

almost ancient literatury, by the net's standards. as usual, the
register proves to be a mixture of total cluelessness and occasional
gems.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Jan 11 04:12:00 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:12:00 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
> 
> It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
> used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
> standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
> selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
> reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
> pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
> gun).

a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
(he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
kind of ammo they fire.




From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 11 10:36:11 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:36:11 -0500
Subject: Napster, porno, oh my! more german fascism
Message-ID: <3A5DFC30.3D7FF3C1@mindspring.com>


German police in Napster child porn probe
                 By: Linda Harrison in New York
                 Posted: 10/01/2001 at 21:14 GMT

                 German police have launched a probe into whether
                 Napster is being used to swap child porn on the Net.

                 The investigation will also delve into other online
                 file-swapping services such as Gnutella and MyNapster,
                 and hopes to determine whether users have stored
illegal
                 material on their computers.

                 "We are conducting inquiries in connection with that,"
a
                 Munich police representative told IDG.net today,
                 although no further details were revealed.

                 Napster, which lets surfers share music MP3 or WMA
                 files through its Web site, threatened to ban users
using
                 the service to trade pornographic images.

                 "Any exchange of image or film files would violate
                 Napster's terms of service," it said in a statement.

                 "Under Napster's terms of service, users are
responsible
                 for complying with all federal and state laws
applicable
                 to shared content. User accounts that violate those
terms
                 will be blocked from the service as soon as Napster
                 learns of such violations."

                 In related news, seven Brits pleaded guilty today to
                 taking part in one of the world's biggest Net porn
rings.
                 The men were among 107 people arrested by police in
                 12 countries suspected of belonging to an Internet
                 paedophile ring. .





From opera at access7.net  Thu Jan 11 15:33:47 2001
From: opera at access7.net (opera at access7.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:33:47
Subject: Best New Trade Show Display by Opera Portables, Inc. adv
Message-ID: <701.169254.180517@unknown>

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From cels451 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 11 15:59:12 2001
From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:59:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: universal bullshit decryptor
Message-ID: <20010111235912.74115.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com>


Finally, a free service to see through linguistic
bullshit:

http://www.pornolize.com

Try your favourite web shit site, like
www.whitehouse.gov:

http://www.pornolize.com/cgi-bin/pornolize/pornolize.cgi?lang=en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whitehouse.gov



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Jan 11 08:16:07 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:16:07 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Quando_os_exames_batem_=E0_porta_._._.?=
Message-ID: <00baf0716160b11WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 15:56:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:56:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010111175557.446q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Thanks for the feedback.

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100, Tom wrote:
> > a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> > (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> > exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> > kind of ammo they fire.
> 
> current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
> version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
> anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
> find out.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From abuse at microsoft.com  Thu Jan 11 18:34:08 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:34:08 -0800
Subject: Confirmation Receipt
Message-ID: <200101120327.VAA20159@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft.

We received your email, but other than a copy of the initial 
Confirmation Receipt we sent you previously, your email did not contain 
any information about your issue. If there is an issue we can assist you
with, please let us know.

Thank you,

Matt H.
Microsoft Online Customer Representative



Original Message Follows: 
-------------------------
From: Abuse at Microsoft <cypherpunks at ssz.com>
To:      Abuse at Microsoft <abuse at microsoft.com>
Subject: CDR: Confirmation Receipt

Thank you for your inquiry to Abuse at Microsoft.com  

Your e-mail was received on Sun, Jan 7, 2001 at 4:25 PM and will be 
handled personally by one of our Customer Service Representatives within
12 hours. Our Customer Service Representatives can answer general policy
questions, validate your support eligibility, or refer you to the 
appropriate phone, e-mail, or Web resource.

To explore online support options, please visit 
http://support.microsoft.com/directory/default.asp.

Thank you, 
Microsoft Product Support Services






From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Jan 11 18:03:25 2001
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:03:25 -0700
Subject: learn web design
In-Reply-To: <2ow8jw.orvl2m524p7e05f33@beverly.babit.com>
Message-ID: <3A5E037D.21961.5A9E67@localhost>


To:             	$user at domain.com
Date sent:      	Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:36 +0000
From:           	jessicainf2 at spire.com
Subject:        	learn web design
Copies to:      	wardweb at infonex.com, c3 at infonex.com, cypherpunks at infonex.com,
       	agorist at infonex.com
Send reply to:  	jessicainf2 at spire.com

Internet/Web Page Design Training University
is seeking Commercial Web Design Specialists NOW!
Earn BIG $$$ while you learn!
Affordable Training From Home-New Internet Career!

We all are looking for better income AND personal freedom,
features that a "web based" internet business career can deliver!

What makes training with our institution the answer?
1) To begin with, a 1600 student track record and growing daily.
2) Hundreds of successful graduates earning in Internet activities now.
3) $100's of Dollars of FREE Trial Software
4) Career assistance and placement help just for the asking.
5) Conditional Money Back Guarantee!
6) Affordable and/or Subsidized Tuition (earn while you learn)
7) An enjoyable interactive, self-paced, self-taught, at-home system!
8) Teaches you how to effectively create high paying web sites quickly
9) Our University instructors become "Personal Trainers".

Our dynamic "Quick Start" trademarked program can teach you how
to build professional results-oriented commercial web sites
in hours instead of days!

Students receive a package including fully functional,
all-inclusive software for use in the class, along with essential
trialware and freeware added to enhance your education experience.
This package alone, has an estimated retail value to the student
of hundreds of dollars!  This allows our students to learn without
investing large amounts of cash.

Guaranteed placement assistance is part of the total philosophy too!
Students successfully finishing this intense, hands-on training
will be guaranteed assistance on THREE levels in finding
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Our Student Advisors can put you in touch with dozens and dozens of
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experiences and their new careers or part time lucrative businesses!

Call and see if you would qualify for a government grant for our school!

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(ask for more examples from admissions):

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"When I enrolled at The University I had little skills
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me with site work where I have earned from $400-$1000
in a 2-4 day period!  I've built a valuable portfolio that
I can market to potential clients or employees.  This school
was a big break for me."

Jennifer Den Adel said:
"The staff at The University has been great.
In fact, I started out as an intern, and through this
past year I've found flexible hours, an invaluable
work experience, and the ability to earn a great income.
The School has opened the doors for me!"

Paul Luecke mentioned:
"With the fantastic program at this school, I was able to pay for
my training in about two weeks worth of work for their clients!
To learn this skill was great....but to have a program where the
University basically paid me to learn was unbelievable!"

After your graduation you also receive FREE Web Hosting Space
to display your work, AND, as your client base begins to soar,
we will provide graduates with ADDITIONAL HOSTING SPACE
FOR YOUR CLIENTS at next-to-cost pricing! This is a direct profit
center for YOU, the web designer, resulting from your clients
monthly fees paid directly to you, for hosting their sites.

Think it through...
If you develop your own clientele and you net just $50 a\ month
from your hosting fees, 20 clients would bring you an
additional $1000 a month in hosting fees alone!  Now you see
why, as a Commercial Web Design Specialist...THERE ARE NO LIMITS!

Our staff of Student Counselors and Advisors will help to properly
structure your proposed curriculum, and answer any questions you
may have when your call is returned.

(So we may continue to maintain our highest level of service,
class size will be limited each session, to better serve motivated
prospective students.)

To speak with the Admissions Office about your needs and whether
you are the student we are looking for, please phone the following
number and leave the outlined responses shown below.

Please SPEAK SLOWLY and CLEARLY

>>>>>>>>> Call (303) 215-3062 <<<<<<<<<<<<
When you call we will need:
Your Full Name
Your Phone Number for the Interview
Best Weekday to Contact You
Your E-Mail Address



(REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS)
This mailing is done by an independent marketing company.
We respect your online privacy and apologize if you have
received this message in error. We do respect our remove lists!
Please do not use the reply to this e-mail, an e-mail reply
cannot be read! If you would like to be removed from our mailing
list just click below and send us a remove request email.

(To Be Removed)




From real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Jan 11 18:04:02 2001
From: real at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:04:02 -0700
Subject: learn web design
In-Reply-To: <2ow8jw.orvl2m524p7e05f33@beverly.babit.com>
Message-ID: <3A5E03A2.15444.5B2CE8@localhost>


To:             	$user at domain.com
Date sent:      	Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:36 +0000
From:           	jessicainf2 at spire.com
Subject:        	learn web design
Copies to:      	wardweb at infonex.com, c3 at infonex.com, cypherpunks at infonex.com,
       	agorist at infonex.com
Send reply to:  	jessicainf2 at spire.com

Internet/Web Page Design Training University
is seeking Commercial Web Design Specialists NOW!
Earn BIG $$$ while you learn!
Affordable Training From Home-New Internet Career!

We all are looking for better income AND personal freedom,
features that a "web based" internet business career can deliver!

What makes training with our institution the answer?
1) To begin with, a 1600 student track record and growing daily.
2) Hundreds of successful graduates earning in Internet activities now.
3) $100's of Dollars of FREE Trial Software
4) Career assistance and placement help just for the asking.
5) Conditional Money Back Guarantee!
6) Affordable and/or Subsidized Tuition (earn while you learn)
7) An enjoyable interactive, self-paced, self-taught, at-home system!
8) Teaches you how to effectively create high paying web sites quickly
9) Our University instructors become "Personal Trainers".

Our dynamic "Quick Start" trademarked program can teach you how
to build professional results-oriented commercial web sites
in hours instead of days!

Students receive a package including fully functional,
all-inclusive software for use in the class, along with essential
trialware and freeware added to enhance your education experience.
This package alone, has an estimated retail value to the student
of hundreds of dollars!  This allows our students to learn without
investing large amounts of cash.

Guaranteed placement assistance is part of the total philosophy too!
Students successfully finishing this intense, hands-on training
will be guaranteed assistance on THREE levels in finding
work and employment for which they can be compensated for!

Our Student Advisors can put you in touch with dozens and dozens of
satisfied graduates who are glad to tell of their Design School
experiences and their new careers or part time lucrative businesses!

Call and see if you would qualify for a government grant for our school!

We point with pride to a few of our graduates
(ask for more examples from admissions):

Mark Mentzer says:
"When I enrolled at The University I had little skills
in the web process. Now six months later they are providing
me with site work where I have earned from $400-$1000
in a 2-4 day period!  I've built a valuable portfolio that
I can market to potential clients or employees.  This school
was a big break for me."

Jennifer Den Adel said:
"The staff at The University has been great.
In fact, I started out as an intern, and through this
past year I've found flexible hours, an invaluable
work experience, and the ability to earn a great income.
The School has opened the doors for me!"

Paul Luecke mentioned:
"With the fantastic program at this school, I was able to pay for
my training in about two weeks worth of work for their clients!
To learn this skill was great....but to have a program where the
University basically paid me to learn was unbelievable!"

After your graduation you also receive FREE Web Hosting Space
to display your work, AND, as your client base begins to soar,
we will provide graduates with ADDITIONAL HOSTING SPACE
FOR YOUR CLIENTS at next-to-cost pricing! This is a direct profit
center for YOU, the web designer, resulting from your clients
monthly fees paid directly to you, for hosting their sites.

Think it through...
If you develop your own clientele and you net just $50 a\ month
from your hosting fees, 20 clients would bring you an
additional $1000 a month in hosting fees alone!  Now you see
why, as a Commercial Web Design Specialist...THERE ARE NO LIMITS!

Our staff of Student Counselors and Advisors will help to properly
structure your proposed curriculum, and answer any questions you
may have when your call is returned.

(So we may continue to maintain our highest level of service,
class size will be limited each session, to better serve motivated
prospective students.)

To speak with the Admissions Office about your needs and whether
you are the student we are looking for, please phone the following
number and leave the outlined responses shown below.

Please SPEAK SLOWLY and CLEARLY

>>>>>>>>> Call (303) 215-3062 <<<<<<<<<<<<
When you call we will need:
Your Full Name
Your Phone Number for the Interview
Best Weekday to Contact You
Your E-Mail Address



(REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS)
This mailing is done by an independent marketing company.
We respect your online privacy and apologize if you have
received this message in error. We do respect our remove lists!
Please do not use the reply to this e-mail, an e-mail reply
cannot be read! If you would like to be removed from our mailing
list just click below and send us a remove request email.

(To Be Removed)




From eay at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 01:23:01 2001
From: eay at pobox.com (Eric Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:23:01 +1000
Subject: crypto implementation for small footprint devices
References: <953A023D1ACA2F45A31A6F9B7B2A992502E8A1F1@usscmail1.liberate.com> <20010110075913.A16618@progressive-systems.com> <20010110095512.Q19819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D7B75.2C69D0E2@pobox.com>

Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 07:59:13AM -0700, Gé Weijers wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 03:42:45PM -0800, Xiao, Peter wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I am currently looking for crypto implementation that can fit into small
> > > footprint (in the order of 50K or less) devices. Ideally, an SSL type of
> > > protocol meets my requirements but it is almost impossible to implement it
> > > within 50K even with selected cipher suites. So, I am looking for
> > > alternatives (either symmetric key or public key based). I was thinking
> > > about WTLS but looks like its implementation can not be significantly
> > > smaller than that of TLS since it is also based on Public Key cryptography
> > > (I am wondering how it fits into a cellphone). Can any one tell me what is
> > > the approximate size of the client implementation of WTLS. Also, would
> > > anyone send some pointers to me regarding what I am looking for.
> >
> > It's not the public-key operations themselves that use the space. I've
> > managed to squeeze OAEP-formatted RSA encryption into less than
> > 20K. The public key was hard-wired, though. You probably want to stay
> > away from ASN.1 formatted data if space is a concern.

I have been doing some work on this recently, and also have gotten good,
results, specifically, PKCS#1 RSA multi-prime on a Palm is 16.5k
(1024-2 17.63sec, 1024-3 9.6sec, palm IIIx (68xxx 20mhz)), or more
interestingly
18k on a Psion (ARM7 36mhz, 1024-3 private in 0.18sec and 1024-2 in 0.34sec).
I'm waiting for ARM (or SH3/4 or anything other than 68xxx) to take over
the world.  It make the choice of public key algorithm based on
CPU load less irrelevant when low end devices have this sort of grunt.

I am interested in knowing how small EC can be for both
public/private operations.  Any public information or peoples experiences?

> Unfortunately anything that uses X.509 (like SSL) will require it.
> It's possible to write small X.509/ASN.1 decoding packages.  One that I
> wrote for a small-device SSL package takes about 11k code (gcc on Intel
> PIII) and it's not very optimized- there's lots of room to squeeze it
> down farther than the original application required.

Similar experiences here, we have an ASN.1 encoder/decoder in 8k.
I have not tries the really complex stuff yet,
like SET (and hopefully never will :-).  It is nice to have an ASN.1 encoder
this small but rather obviously it requires a bit of work per
ASN.1 data type.

eric (who has a day job at eay at rsasecurity.com.au)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jan 11 19:46:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:46:28 -0800
Subject: [MEETINGPUNKS] Jan 2001 Cypherpunks SF -- "CRYPTO" author
  Steven Levy, DVD/DeCSS, Martin Minow Remembered
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010111194628.00b3f750@idiom.com>


From:  Dave Del Torto <meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org>
-------------------------

Greetings,

Cypherpunks/Meetingpunks Announcements for January 2001!

Every month they seem to doubt us and expect our early demise, but 
EVERY SECOND SATURDAY, rain or shine, we have ... wait for it ... 
that's right: a Cypherpunks Physical Meeting (that means you show 
up!) somewhere in the San Francisco Bay Area, and this coming Second 
Saturday is no different... no budget, no frills, no BS (just the way 
Martin would've liked it) we're not going away until the NSA does. 
Check out the complete scoop at:

  This Month in SF: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/2001/0113-SF.html>

  All Jan Meetings: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/2001/01.html>
   Admin/List Page: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html>
The Handy Shortcut: <http://cryptorights.org/meetingpunks>



January 2001/San Francisco Meeting Synopsis:
............................................................................

SF Bay Area Cypherpunks (80th Chairborne Regiment) 
January 2001 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday 13 January 2001
TIME:   1:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  San Francisco Law Enforcement Regional Training Center
        (San Francisco Police Academy)
         Room 102  (or follow the cribs)

  This is the First Cypherpunks Meeting of the Millennium!

  The January 2001 Physical Meeting of the San Francisco Bay Area
  Cypherpunks will feature Steven Levy, author of the new 
  cypherpunk book "CRYPTO". If you haven't got your copy yet, buy one 
  and bring it to the meeting! We'll also spend some time catching up 
  with Cindy Cohn on the EFF's DVD/DeCSS case. At the end of 
  the meeting, we'll remember our departed friend Martin Minow 
  (who would have really enjoyed Steven's book).

  As always, this is an Open Meeting on US Soil and members of the
  Public are encouraged to attend, especially Martin's Friends and Family.


Meeting Agenda:      (all timings are approximate)

      "Our agenda is a widely-held secret."

  12:00 -  1:00 - Informal milling about, food & beverages.
   1:00 -  3:00 - General Meeting:
                  HAL2001 Planning
                  A Report from Burma!
                  CryptoRights Foundation News
                  MojoNation Update
                  (Possible Mystery Ph.D.: Vna Tbyqoret)
   3:00 -  4:30 - Special Guest: Steven Levy, author of "CRYPTO"
   4:30 -  5:15 - Cindy Cohn, EFF: Update on the DVD/DeCSS Case
   5:15 -  6:00 - "Remembering Martin Minow"
   6:00 -  ?    - Dinner at a nearby restaurant usually follows the
                   meeting.

FULL INFO: <http://cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/2001/0113-SF.html>

................................. end here .................................




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com  Thu Jan 11 15:53:00 2001
From: MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com (MarketPlaceNews at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:53:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: Add photos to your account and save.
Message-ID: <200101120551.BAA23057@localhost.localdomain>

Email subject: Add photos to your account and save.

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From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 11 17:17:22 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:17:22 -0500
Subject: heavy handed feebs fuck 16 year old kid
Message-ID: <3A5E5A75.4F38E7A9@mindspring.com>



Feds link boy, 16, and plot to 'take
              down Internet'

              Agents seize youth's computer equipment; family says it's
              all a misunderstanding

              Thursday, January 11, 2001

              By SCOTT SUNDE
              SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

              To the FBI, a Snohomish County teenager is a suspected
              cyberterrorist who planned to join others in unleashing a
              program that could "take down the Internet."

              Agents swooped in days before the program was to be
              tested, seizing computer equipment at the 16-year-old
              boy's home north of Lynnwood on Dec. 22.

              To the boy and his family, it's all a big
misunderstanding.
              The FBI is making far too much of a little computer
              noodling and adolescent boasting, they say.

              "They got it totally wrong," the boy complained
              yesterday.

              An FBI spokesman said yesterday the agency is working
              closely with prosecutors and can say little about the
              international case.

              The FBI has made no arrests so far in the United States,
              said Matt McLaughlin, a spokesman at the bureau's Los
              Angeles office.

              The investigation began in October, according to
              documents used to obtain a warrant to search the youth's
              Alderwood Manor home.

              DALNet, a San Diego company that provides Internet
              chat networks, contacted the FBI and complained that
              several computer users had begun attacks on it. The
              hackers caused computers to become disabled and denied
              other users access to DALNet, according to an affidavit
              by John Pi, a computer expert and FBI agent in Los
              Angeles.

              Investigators traced the user names of the alleged
              hackers, leading them to the 16-year-old and computer
              users in California, Michigan and Israel.

              In an interview yesterday, the boy said he used DALNet
              but didn't attack it.

              When an administrator there accused him of attacks, he
              said he "flooded her with messages. That's not illegal."

              A DALNet systems operator told the FBI last fall that a
              person using the user name "Booterror" had created a
              program that could "take down the Internet on New
              Year's Eve," Pi wrote in the affidavit.

              Booterror planned to send test versions of the program
              to other computer users by Dec. 25, with the intent of
              then spreading it world-wide, according to Pi.

              "That's totally invalid," the 16-year-old said yesterday.

              The teen acknowledged that his computer nickname is
              Booterror but said it is pronounced "Boot-Error."

              "Boot" is a common computer term used when a system
              comes online.

              The FBI agents raiding his home made it sound more
              sinister -- pronouncing it "Boo-Terror," he said.

              He said he tried to create a "Trojan," a program that can
              be sent out and used to control someone's computer. But
              he folded the project two months ago, he said.

              "I was just playing around and learning something. I was
              just going to make a small Trojan, and I just got caught
              up in this."

              He started working with computers and surfing the
              Internet two years ago, he said. He built his own
              computers.

              The youth had been attending a community college to
              earn the equivalent of a high school diploma. But he
              hasn't shown much interest in that or much of anything
              else since the FBI paid a call, the boyfriend of the boy's

              mother said.

              He said the boy is guilty only of getting a little
"mouthy"
              over the Internet. "He's just 16 years old. That's all it
was
              -- bragging. He had no intention of doing all that crap."

              But federal authorities and DALNet are serious about
              the investigation.

              The company's Web page provided a link this week to
              news reports from Israel, where police arrested four
              17-year-old hackers suspected of planning an attack on
              U.S. computer systems on New Year's Eve.

              DALNet said in a prepared statement that it is
              cooperating with the FBI and law enforcement outside
              the U.S. and "will continue to pursue all individuals
              responsible for attacks upon our systems."

            http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/hack11.shtml





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 11 20:19:39 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:19:39 -0800
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de> <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <a05010401b68435bf60ec@[207.111.241.45]>


At 12:26 AM +0100 1/12/01, Tom wrote:
>On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100, Tom wrote:
>>  a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
>>  (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
>>  exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
>>  kind of ammo they fire.
>
>current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
>version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
>anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
>find out.
>

Much information on the G36 is readily available on the Web. It is 
not actually very similar to the G3, except for the roller-delayed 
action used by HK in most of their semi-automatic rifles.

The caliber is, as per current NATO expectations, 5.56 mm.

I sent out a note entitle "More on the G3" this morning, but it has 
not yet, 8-9 hours later, appeared in my mailbox. Could be delays and 
glitches due to the storms hitting California today. If I don't see 
it in the next several hours, I'll send it out again.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From SGBvsLei at aol.com  Thu Jan 11 17:40:44 2001
From: SGBvsLei at aol.com (SGBvsLei at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:40:44 EST
Subject: sup
Message-ID: <c8.f445a75.278fba9c@aol.com>


i saw ur name somewhere on a board,... u were talking about NORTON YOUR EYES 
ONLY,.. i was wondering if u knew where i could get the US version or if u 
could send,... thanx,...

       >:)




From info at bacalao.net  Thu Jan 11 12:09:55 2001
From: info at bacalao.net (BACALAO.NET)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:09:55 +0100
Subject: Newsletter from Bacalao.Net
Message-ID: <200101112000.VAA30845@odin.mimer.no>


For Seafood offers, check out 

http://bacalao.net

This is a website where 

-producers
-traders
-importers
-exporters 

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Try it out - it is totally free of charge. 

If you register account you will also be able to use your company logo and product pictures while posting at the tradeboard.

If you want to unsubscribe from this list, please go to http://bacalao.net
Click 'join mailinglist'
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Best regards,
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From trutheye at trutheye.com  Thu Jan 11 21:22:27 2001
From: trutheye at trutheye.com (TruthEye Astrology)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:22:27 -0800
Subject: I SEE YOUR FUTURE...
Message-ID: <200101120019918.SM00178@localhost>


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From trutheye at trutheye.com  Thu Jan 11 21:25:28 2001
From: trutheye at trutheye.com (TruthEye Astrology)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:25:28 -0800
Subject: I SEE YOUR FUTURE...
Message-ID: <200101120022519.SM00178@localhost>


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From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Jan 11 18:42:00 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:42:00 -0500
Subject: Security Firm Signs Ex-CIA Director, Ex-Microsoft President to Board 
Message-ID: <8c734650d200e1cd9d046807a1499074@mixmaster.shinn.net>


Jhttp://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,21412,00.html
January 11, 2001 

Security Firm Signs Ex-CIA Director, Ex-Microsoft President to Board 
Advanced Biometrics says it will look to Robert Gates and Michael Hallman to help develop an infrared identification system. 
By Laura Rohde 

Advanced Biometrics Inc., or ABI, has added a couple of heavyweights to its board of directors: former CIA Director Robert Gates and former Microsoft President and COO Michael Hallman have joined the biometric technology company, it announced Thursday.

Both Gates and Hallman are joining the board, in part, to help guide the development of the ABI's biometric technology LiveGrip, which will be used to identify individuals for security purposes, the company said in two separate statements. LiveGrip identifies a person using infrared light to measure the substructure of a person's hand, the privately held, Washington state-based company said.

Gates, who had a 27-year career with the CIA and served as its director under George Bush, is being looked to for his expertise in security and intelligence issues, while Hallman, Microsoft's president from April 1990 to March 1992, would seek investment opportunities for LiveGrip, ABI said.

Laura Rohde writes for the IDG News Service. 






From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jan 11 22:06:05 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:06:05 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
Message-ID: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]>



[Sent this morning, 1/11, to algebra.com address. Not received as of 
11 hours later. So am sending out to cyberpass.net address.]


At 1:12 PM +0100 1/11/01, Tom wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>  Up until then I thought I did too...I"m not so sure any more.
>>
>>  It's not a clone of the HK G3 as it was explained to me, it was apparently
>>  used as an interim weapon when the German Army dropped the HK G3 as a
>>  standard issue weapon a few years ago (ala G11). Maybe FAL, they're
>>  selling a 'G1' rifle that uses caseless ammo? Though I can't find a
>>  reference to any such rifle. Maybe it was CETME you do see their gun
>>  pushed as the 'G3' (the HK is a 'clone' or derived weapon from the Spanish
>>  gun).
>
>a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
>(he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
>exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
>kind of ammo they fire.

On Choate's point above, it is not FAL (a rifle, but I assume Choate 
must mean the maker of the FAL, Fabrique Nationale, now owned by 
another company, IIRC) who are making a caseless ammo rifle. Rather, 
it is in fact H-K. The G11 has been in development for close to 30 
years now.

(H-K are _also_ owned by another company. Last I heard, a British 
company bought H-K, though the factories and design groups remain in 
Germany.)

Most NATO countries have now adopted some variant of the 5.56 mm 
cartridge, in either M-16-type variants or in bullpup designs like 
the excellent Steyr AUG or the newer HK G36 (with a civilian model, 
the SL8). Neither the caseless ammo of the H-K G11 not the 
flechette-firing prototypes are getting wide acceptance.

And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again 
recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62 
mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at 
least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate 
like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say 
"See, I was RIGHT!")

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From adam at cypherspace.org  Thu Jan 11 20:09:55 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (adam at cypherspace.org)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:09:55 -0500
Subject: copy protecttion doesn't work (Re: MS Product Activation for Windows)
Message-ID: <200101120409.XAA02290@modemcable101.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



Ray Dillinger wrote:
> But if Microsoft and its ilk do in fact successfully create systems
> that prevent "piracy", it won't be possible to be a hypocrite about
> it any more.  And with commercial software flatly refusing some
> kinds of use, perhaps a fair number of people who now *think* they
> are not doing any piracy will have to face some harsh facts.

Well I think the main reason no one bothered to write a license number
generator for win9x, win2k and the windows NT versions is because the
inconvenience factor is low right now -- most people have some license
numbers lying around.  People typically use the same code on all the
machines on their network just for convenience.

(Well probably someone has in fact written a crack for the different
windows versions, but my point is no one has an incentive to use such
work-arounds, because the copy protect code is not too much of a
nuisance).

The second they introduce this anti-piracy measure -- if they actually
go through with it -- the copy protect code check will be broken, with
a patch to disable it, or a program to generate licenses.  Everyone
will use it whether they paid for the windows CD, got it free with
their machine, or copied the OS.

So pretty much the only effect they'll have is to inconvenience their
users, and probably as Ray suggests make more people have negative
feelings about copy protection mechanisms because of the extra
inconvenience.

Adam




From George at Orwellian.Org  Thu Jan 11 21:19:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:19:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Two items
Message-ID: <200101120519.AAA27114@www4.aa.psiweb.com>


(via Wired)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15982.html
#    
#    German police in Napster child porn probe By: Linda Harrison 
#    in New York Posted: 10/01/2001 at 21:14 GMT
#    
#    German police have launched a probe into whether Napster is being 
#    used to swap child porn on the Net.
#    
#    The investigation will also delve into other online file-swapping 
#    services such as Gnutella and MyNapster, and hopes to determine 
#    whether users have stored illegal material on their computers.

----

[ugh, comic relief]

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/11/nyregion/11STAT.html
#    
#    January 11, 2001 [snipped; NYS sued for more education funds for NYC]
#    
#    The New York State will soon require every graduate to pass
#    college preparatory Regents exams in English, math, social studies
#    and science.
#    
#    The Court of Appeals had earlier defined New York's constitutional
#    right to a "sound basic education" as learning the competence
#    to vote and serve on a jury.
#    
#    The plaintiffs, the Campaign for Fiscal Equity, argued that new
#    Regents standards do include the cognitive skills to analyze 
#    complex ballot propositions and weigh statistical and other 
#    technical evidence in jury trials.
#    
#    But, the Campaign showed, the state does not appropriate enough
#    money to meet those standards.
#    
#    The state's witnesses, paradoxically, denied that the state's
#    own Regents standards were needed.
#    
#    After all, they said, jurors with trouble weighing complex
#    evidence can always ask other jurors for help.
#    
#    Voters with only eighth-grade literacy can make up their minds
#    by watching television advertisements.
#    
#    One state witness implied that New York City voters might be
#    constitutionally entitled to less education than others, because
#    the city has so many television outlets to inform the less
#    literate.

Yabba-Dabba-Doo!




From tom at lemuria.org  Thu Jan 11 15:26:25 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:26:25 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
In-Reply-To: <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>; from tom@ricardo.de on Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org>


On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:12:00PM +0100, Tom wrote:
> a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> kind of ammo they fire.

current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
find out.


-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--




From grandvirtu.com at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jan 11 21:46:47 2001
From: grandvirtu.com at einstein.ssz.com (grandvirtu.com at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:46:47 -0500
Subject: I have tried them all........this one is for real....!
Message-ID: <200101120559.XAA21266@einstein.ssz.com>




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Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:46:55 -0500
Subject: I have tried them all........this one is for real....!
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Subject: !!!!!Attention DoveBid Customer!!!!!!
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From dutch9 at xs4all.nl  Thu Jan 11 18:30:08 2001
From: dutch9 at xs4all.nl (dutch9)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:30:08 +0100
Subject: subscibe mailinglist
Message-ID: <3A5E6C30.3709FBAA@xs4all.nl>







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 05:45:28 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:45:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Another Tim May attempt at changing history. "No, it wasn't ME that made
that claim, it was Choate!, yeah, that's it. Blaim it on Choate." It's as
lame as his 'Choate claimed Gauss' Law didn't apply' when in fact it was
Tim who made the claim. Don't answer the question, complain about the
quoting practice, or that it has an attachment, anything but participating
as an EQUAL in a dialectic.

Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93) 
class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.

He went on and on about the '3 means .223' and that this applied to ALL
HK weapons.

Check the archives. At one point I forwared a HK hompage asking him to explain 
the page. He never responded. Though he did continue the ad hominim.

The rest of the points, who didn't make the 'other G3' or who happens to
own HK today are his typical strawman argument techniques. Don't answer
the question, it might be unfomfortable.

As to people trying to paint life with broad strokes and ignoring the
distinctions is another typicall May'ism. He's always making comparisons
that are flawed because of some 'minor' point that Tim 'overlooked'. It's
'minor' because it usually blows a hole the size of a grayhound bus in
whatever crank anarchist idea he's had today (crack induced is a
supposition at best).

Tim's general approach (Declan's as well) is "if they disagree with me
they must be stupid". What you'll find is Tim making argument after
argument but he never defends them. When questioned he simply attacks the
questioner and hopes nobody notices he slipped the real point in the
dialectic. He's always claiming how easy it would be to destroy this
argument or that, but when it comes down to it Timmy always comes up
short. He NEVER participates. He's quick to lay the challenge down but
he's never delivered. A perfect example of intellectus interruptus.

Look at the free market/economic equilibrium debate. He's quick to refer
to Hayek, though never by particular quote that is verifiable. And when he
is faced with Hayek quotes to the contrary he attacks the messenger. He's
quick to suggest this or that book but when questioned he never has a
responce. Sometimes I doubt he actually reads them. Just puts them on the
shelf so he can be somebody.

His backstroke isn't any better today than yesterday. Tim believe he
should be able to dictate from on high and that he has zero responsiblity
to other people with respect to treating them with respect or
consideration, let alone responding to questions about his claims.

Come on Tim, show us the email wher I (not you) claim Gauss's Law doesn't
apply? Show us the email where I (not you) claim the G3 is not .308. Or
that ESS's are real, or how the economic equilibrium is achieved in the
bullshit anarchic free market. Etc., etc., etc.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> On Choate's point above, it is not FAL (a rifle, but I assume Choate 
> must mean the maker of the FAL, Fabrique Nationale, now owned by 
> another company, IIRC) who are making a caseless ammo rifle. Rather, 
> it is in fact H-K. The G11 has been in development for close to 30 
> years now.
> 
> (H-K are _also_ owned by another company. Last I heard, a British 
> company bought H-K, though the factories and design groups remain in 
> Germany.)
> 
> Most NATO countries have now adopted some variant of the 5.56 mm 
> cartridge, in either M-16-type variants or in bullpup designs like 
> the excellent Steyr AUG or the newer HK G36 (with a civilian model, 
> the SL8). Neither the caseless ammo of the H-K G11 not the 
> flechette-firing prototypes are getting wide acceptance.
> 
> And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again 
> recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62 
> mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at 
> least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate 
> like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say 
> "See, I was RIGHT!")

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 05:55:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:55:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <3A5F0592.1A2F3C41@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....

What makes 'your friend' an authority? Why should we take your word for
it? How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
friend in collusion?

How do we authenticate your friend (ie pk management)?

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Tom wrote:

> should be no problem getting an authoritative answer on that. I'll call
> my friend again this evening. he's been using that weapon for a couple
> of years, he should definitely know which rounds go with it. :)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jessicainf2 at spire.com  Fri Jan 12 00:32:36 2001
From: jessicainf2 at spire.com (jessicainf2 at spire.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:36 +0000
Subject: learn web design
Message-ID: <2ow8jw.orvl2m524p7e05f33@beverly.babit.com>


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From rwindrem at msn.com  Fri Jan 12 05:35:41 2001
From: rwindrem at msn.com (Robert Windrem)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:35:41 -0500
Subject: Rosman's NSA role
Message-ID: <000a01c07c9c$8fb7be60$0ca40318@union1.nj.home.com>

I am a producer for NBC Nightly News in New York.  In 1986, I spent several days in Rosman and nearby Asheville researching Rosman and shooting it from the ground and the air.  The ground level shooting was mostly fruitless, but I still have video I shot from a helicopter.

At the time, Rosman had 14 dishes in a bowl like area in Pisgah.  It was quite secret as the Sun notes.  However, the FAA never instituted any restrictions over the site, as it did with other sites.

We included it in a two part series we did in 1986 called "The Eavesdropping War"--NBC having refused to kill the story, as requested by then-NSA director William Odom.   Odom threatened legal action if we ran the piece.  They are particularly concerned about Rosman.

We determined that Rosman had several missions. 

 One was intercepting communications from Soviet geosynchronous satellites, the Gorizont and Raduga.  We were told interception had two values: 1. the satellites were used to communicate with Russian forces in Cuba and 2. they were also used to communicate with Soviet SS-20 sites in Europe...several of which were in East Germany. The farthest Raduga, as I recall, was at 14 degrees west, putting it in range of both Rosman and East Germany.  It should be noted that Rosman is almost due north of the old Soviet headquarters in Lourdes, Cuba, southwest of Havana. Lourdes, of course, is also the largest satellite sigint base in the Russian equivalent of Echeon, which I just wrote about for msnbc.com.  I was told that Rosman was used in part to capture signals being sent between Lourdes and the Soviet sigint downlink at Vatutinki outside Moscow.

The other mission was intercepting signals from the agent satellite network the Soviet Union maintained to communicate with its agents worldwide.  A crude version of Iridium, it contained eight satellites in low earth orbit.

The property was ceded to the DoD from the General Services Administration in December 1980, at the close of the Carter administration, on the same day another smaller NASA site outside of London was turned over to DoD.  

At the end of the Cold War, with the signing of the INF Treaty and lessened tensions, it was shut down and some of its equipment sent to the NSA base in Sebana Seca, P.R.

I hope this was helpful to you.  If you need to call, give me a ring at 1-800-NBC-NEWS, ext. 7390.


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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 09:14:40 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:14:40 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b684ebbd99c9@[207.111.241.25]>


At 7:55 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....
>
>What makes 'your friend' an authority? Why should we take your word for
>it? How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
>friend in collusion?
>

So, Jim Choate has evolved to the "Tom is a tentacle of Tim" stage of dementia.


Hilarious.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Jan 12 09:28:15 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:28:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: heavy handed feebs fuck 16 year old kid
In-Reply-To: <3A5E5A75.4F38E7A9@mindspring.com> from "Blank Frank" at Jan 11, 2001 08:17:22 PM
Message-ID: <200101121728.f0CHSFt32085@artifact.psychedelic.net>



>               DALNet, a San Diego company that provides Internet
>               chat networks, contacted the FBI and complained that
>               several computer users had begun attacks on it. The
>               hackers caused computers to become disabled and denied
>               other users access to DALNet, according to an affidavit
>               by John Pi, a computer expert and FBI agent in Los
>               Angeles.

I never knew Dalnet was a commercial entity, much less one that cooperates
with the FBI in screwing over its users. 

I wonder if their servers log the chat traffic and index it for jackbooted
thug convenience.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 09:29:18 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:29:18 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b684ec90cb41@[207.111.241.176]>


At 7:45 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
>rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
>When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93)
>class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
>IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
>lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
>hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.

Nonsense. I have known what a 91 and a 93 (and a 94) were for many 
years. Almost bought a 91 in 1975, _did_ buy a clone.

You still haven't responded to what I sent out after my own search of 
the archives:

At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>>  Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
>>  From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
>>  Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
>
>>   I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
>>  weapon.
>
>Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
>Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
>pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
>is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
>91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
>the H&K home page...


This speaks for itself, especially:

"Your wording above would indicate the
91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect"


In fact, the 91 *is* a .308 and the 93 *is* a different caliber.

Do you still dispute this?


>
>He went on and on about the '3 means .223' and that this applied to ALL
>HK weapons.


I said no such thing. Please produce the message.

>
>
>Tim's general approach (Declan's as well) is "if they disagree with me
>they must be stupid". What you'll find is Tim making argument after
>argument but he never defends them.

Actually, many of us have wasted far more time on your crankish ideas 
than they deserve.


>
>Come on Tim, show us the email wher I (not you) claim Gauss's Law doesn't
>apply? Show us the email where I (not you) claim the G3 is not .308.


For example, your claim: "Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought 
they do share a lot of commen base pieces) that is the sniper rifle."

The 93 is a .223, not a .308, and it is _not_ the sniper rifle. 
Further, your phrase "G3 not the 91" shows your basic confusion. The 
G3 is the military version of the 91, not of the 93.

Trivial points, in some sense, but deeply illustrative of your mania 
for stating something that is incorrect and then never admitting your 
mistake, even years later.

Which is why even your co-workers acknowledge your crankishness.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 09:31:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:31:59 -0800
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <a05010402b684efb8892f@[207.111.241.176]>


At 11:54 AM -0500 1/12/01, John Young wrote:
>One of the Tempest FOIA docs NSA released recently
>concerns NONSTOP, a term whose definition is classified
>as SECRET. About half of the document, NACSEM 5112,
>"NONSTOP Evaluation  Techniques," has been redacted,
>and we'll publish it soon.
>
>>From the clear text, NONSTOP appears to refer to
>protection against compromising emanations of cryptographic
>systems, and maybe in particular radio crypto systems.
>
>Another document refers to NONSTOP testing and protection
>being especially needed on vehicles, planes and ships.
>
>We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
>the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text
>below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on
>what NONSTOP means.

The Tandem Computers "NONSTOP" was a product line in use by various 
government agencies for secure (fault-tolerant) computing for a long 
time. I'd look there for starters.


--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Fri Jan 12 09:54:37 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:54:37 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C5F@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Jan 12 01:57:15 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 12 Jan 2001 09:57:15 -0000
Subject: Idea for tamper-resistant PC hardware
Message-ID: <20010112095715.3159.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



Here's something I would like to see: a harddrive that is
tamper-resistant.  The threat model is a server is deployed in an
untrusted machineroom, and recovery of plaintext from the system is
unacceptable.  One obvious attack, involving an encrypted hard drive,
is for the attackers to have a "power failure" and then remove the
encrypted hard drive from the server, and reinstall it in an
"instrumented" server which can recover key data.  I want to defeat
that attack.

One obvious way to do that would be to have a bunch of thermite, or
explosives, or whatever that trigger when the thing is tampered with.
That's fine, but as a general rule, if the solution to the problem
requires explosives, I would rather try to find a different problem.

So here's another solution.  The hard drive itself is encrypted, and
the encryption/decryption hardware is part of the hard drive chips,
and all are mounted within a tamper-resistant enclosure.  Also mounted
in this enclosure is a little battery which will last for the lifetime
of the harddrive, and a large-enough capacitor.  When the enclosure is
tampered with, the capacitor sends a jolt through the chip that holds
the encryption key.  This jolt is big enough to melt the silicon, so
no key bits could be recovered (this would not require much of a jolt,
I would think).  Then the attacker would have the hard drive, but no
way to decrypt it.  Obviously, it would need sensors to detect
tampering with the case, and tricks liking freezing the thing, using
radiation, whatever.

This allows us to have data be permenantly destroyed, and the hard
drive permenantly deactivated, without doing any crazy stuff involving
pyrotechnics which looks bad in the media.  "The computer exploded,
injuring the thieves" looks much worse than "The thieves tripped a
safety mechanism and were unable to recover any data from the
computer."  It would also allow everyhting to be done in a
normal-looking PC case.

So the total solution would be a computer case with sensors which
trigger the capacitor in the hard drive, and also sensors in the hard
drive enclosure which trigger destruction of the key.

It seems like this wouldn't be such a complicated thing to implement.
Any thoughts on this?




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Jan 12 07:03:23 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:03:23 -0500
Subject: Rosman's NSA role
In-Reply-To: <000a01c07c9c$8fb7be60$0ca40318@union1.nj.home.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEGKCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


American federation of scientists maintain a list of facilities at the link
below.  The analysis looks pretty good to me.  Interesting point: there is a
limit to which satellites could be monitored from the area...for example I
believe european satellites and asian satellites are outside of 'view'
because of the curvature of the earth.  Could perhaps be pointed south and
at intra USA birds?
http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/nsafacil.html

pz
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Robert Windrem
  Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 8:36 AM
  To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
  Subject: Rosman's NSA role


  I am a producer for NBC Nightly News in New York.  In 1986, I spent
several days in Rosman and nearby Asheville researching Rosman and shooting
it from the ground and the air.  The ground level shooting was mostly
fruitless, but I still have video I shot from a helicopter.

  At the time, Rosman had 14 dishes in a bowl like area in Pisgah.  It was
quite secret as the Sun notes.  However, the FAA never instituted any
restrictions over the site, as it did with other sites.

  We included it in a two part series we did in 1986 called "The
Eavesdropping War"--NBC having refused to kill the story, as requested by
then-NSA director William Odom.   Odom threatened legal action if we ran the
piece.  They are particularly concerned about Rosman.

  We determined that Rosman had several missions.

   One was intercepting communications from Soviet geosynchronous
satellites, the Gorizont and Raduga.  We were told interception had two
values: 1. the satellites were used to communicate with Russian forces in
Cuba and 2. they were also used to communicate with Soviet SS-20 sites in
Europe...several of which were in East Germany. The farthest Raduga, as I
recall, was at 14 degrees west, putting it in range of both Rosman and East
Germany.  It should be noted that Rosman is almost due north of the old
Soviet headquarters in Lourdes, Cuba, southwest of Havana. Lourdes, of
course, is also the largest satellite sigint base in the Russian equivalent
of Echeon, which I just wrote about for msnbc.com.  I was told that Rosman
was used in part to capture signals being sent between Lourdes and the
Soviet sigint downlink at Vatutinki outside Moscow.

  The other mission was intercepting signals from the agent satellite
network the Soviet Union maintained to communicate with its agents
worldwide.  A crude version of Iridium, it contained eight satellites in low
earth orbit.

  The property was ceded to the DoD from the General Services Administration
in December 1980, at the close of the Carter administration, on the same day
another smaller NASA site outside of London was turned over to DoD.

  At the end of the Cold War, with the signing of the INF Treaty and
lessened tensions, it was shut down and some of its equipment sent to the
NSA base in Sebana Seca, P.R.

  I hope this was helpful to you.  If you need to call, give me a ring at
1-800-NBC-NEWS, ext. 7390.


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From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 12 07:10:04 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:10:04 -0500
Subject: DoJ publishes cybercrime manual, how much power cops have
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010112100930.00a23580@mail.well.com>



*******
See: http://www.cybercrime.gov/searchmanual.htm
*******

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41133,00.html

    The Feds'll Come A-Snoopin'
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Jan. 12, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON -- Ever wonder how much leeway federal agents have when
    snooping through your e-mail or computer files?

    The short answer: a lot.

    The U.S. Department of Justice this week published new guidelines for
    police and prosecutors in cases involving computer crimes.

    The 500 KB document includes a bevy of recent court cases and covers
    new topics such as encryption, PDAs and secret searches.

    It updates a 1994 manual, which the Electronic Privacy Information
    Center had to file a Freedom of Information Act request to obtain. No
    need to take such drastic steps this time: The Justice Department has
    placed the report on its cybercrime.gov site.

    PAGERS VS. PDAs: Anyone who's arrested will likely be patted down for
    guns, contraband and electronic devices.

    So be sure to yank the batteries if you're about to be nabbed. During
    an arrest, cops can scroll through the information on your pager
    without a warrant.

    What about PDAs? The latest word, oddly enough, might be a 1973
    Supreme Court case, United States v. Robinson, that permitted police
    officers to conduct searches of an arrestee's possessions. Lower
    courts have extended this rule to include pagers.

    But PDAs more closely resemble computers in processing speed and
    storage capacity.

    Concludes the DOJ: "Courts have not yet addressed whether Robinson
    will permit warrantless searches of electronic storage devices that
    contain more information than pagers. If agents can examine the
    contents of wallets, address books and briefcases without a warrant,
    it could be argued that they should be able to search their electronic
    counterparts (such as electronic organizers, floppy disks and Palm
    Pilots) as well."

    Not everyone agrees that an arrest can lead to a full search. "The
    search incident to arrest is less settled," says Jennifer Granick, a
    San Francisco attorney specializing in computer crime law.

    [...]

    "NO KNOCK" SEARCHES: Conservative activists may hate this, but "no
    knock" searches, where Kevlar-clad goons toting M-16s break through
    your front door without warning, aren't going away. If anything, the
    Justice Department seems to think they're even more necessary when
    dealing with computer crimes.

    "Technically adept computer hackers have been known to use 'hot keys,'
    computer programs that destroy evidence when a special button is
    pressed. If agents knock at the door to announce their search, the
    suspect can simply press the button and activate the program to
    destroy the evidence," the manual says.

    It doesn't end there: The Justice Department cites a 1997 case,
    Richards v. Wisconsin, in which the Supreme Court said agents can
    conduct a no knock search even if the judge granting the warrant
    didn't approve one. That's allowed when agents have a "reasonable
    suspicion" that the subject of the search could destroy evidence or
    obstruct the investigation.

    [...] 




From tom at lemuria.org  Fri Jan 12 01:46:08 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:46:08 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
Message-ID: <20010112104607.A20444@lemuria.org>


> a friend of mine was an officer in the german army until very recently
> (he decided to get a real job :) ) - give me 24 hours and I'll tell you
> exactly what the past and current standard issue weapons are and what
> kind of ammo they fire.

current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
find out.


-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--



----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jan 12 08:04:19 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:04:19 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a
  Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <3A5C477E.CB81FA21@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <200101100119.RAA09342@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110162653.047a5bf0@popserver.panix.com>


At 11:29 AM 1/10/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
>*aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
>up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
>colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army.

The British colonial possessions discussed in the article are, indeed, tax 
havens and have been described as such by every writer on the topic from 
the flakiest up to the Economist Intelligence Unit 
http://store.eiu.com/description/M727des.asp.

Red Tony's attempt to corral his colonies has been going on for a few years 
now.  The OECD has gotten into the act with its Financial Action Task Force 
(http://www.oecd.org/fatf/) handling Money Laundering and the OECD, itself, 
http://www.oecd.org/daf/fa/harm_tax/harmtax.htm handling what it calls 
"Harmful Tax Practices".  By the latter, it means evil countries that set 
their taxes too low.  It does not mean the harm involved in tax collection 
itself.

The Barbados meeting http://www.oecd.org/media/release/nw00-123a.htm was 
co-sponsored by the Commonwealth (formerly the British Commonwealth).  They 
released a hopeful closing statement of agreement and cooperation 
but  nothing is likely to come of it since the world's largest tax haven 
(the US) is never the subject of these talks.

After watching these activities since shortly after the US government 
started to crack down on trusts back in 1962, I have learned to ignore what 
governments say and watch what they (and the market) actually do.

More important than bank secrecy itself is the ability to easily create 
legal entities.  One of the reason that the US is a popular tax haven (for 
non-US persons) is because it is so easy to create various business and 
personal entities here.

The Net have only made things worse.  With a dozen P2P payment 
intermediaries created in the last 18 months or so and hundreds of online 
securities brokerages, it's rough for the control forces.

DCF

----
"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold 
justice and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of 
confidentiality, trust and basic decency between the banks and their 
clients."  Imelda Marcos' Prayer for the Swiss Banks - Manila - Sunday 25 
February 1996.




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Fri Jan 12 09:30:15 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:30:15 -0600
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <17301555316454@cyber2.powernet.org>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 12 08:32:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:32:47 -0500
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:45:28AM -0600
References: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010112113247.A19339@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:45:28AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Tim's general approach (Declan's as well) is "if they disagree with me
> they must be stupid". What you'll find is Tim making argument after

And you know what? We're usually right. :)

-Declan




From bf at farc.org  Fri Jan 12 08:39:43 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:39:43 -0500
Subject: SGBvsLei@aol.com 
Message-ID: <3A5F3322.CFF55736@farc.org>


At 08:52 PM 1/11/01 -0500, SGBvsLei at aol.com wrote:
>i saw ur name somewhere on a board,... u were talking about NORTON YOUR
EYES
>ONLY,.. i was wondering if u knew where i could get the US version or
if u
>could send,... thanx,...

Soliciting to steal software?  We've contacted the BSA and AOL.  Expect
a visit at home sometime soon.  You *do* have licenses for what's on
your hard drive, don't
you?

Chump.






From mnoche at usa.net  Fri Jan 12 10:40:41 2001
From: mnoche at usa.net (Mar�a Noche)
Date: 12 Jan 2001 11:40:41 MST
Subject: P.A.T.
Message-ID: <20010112184041.5530.qmail@nwcst319.netaddress.usa.net>


Dear Sirs,

We are a battery distributor company wide established in the Spanish territory
and we are interested in marketing a portable Alcohol tester, accurate and
lightweight, as the most important features.

We will be very pleased if you could send by answering to this e-mail more
information of your products, prices as well as pictures of them.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon,

M.Noche
Sales Mgr.

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jan 12 08:54:50 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:54:50 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
Message-ID: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


One of the Tempest FOIA docs NSA released recently 
concerns NONSTOP, a term whose definition is classified
as SECRET. About half of the document, NACSEM 5112, 
"NONSTOP Evaluation  Techniques," has been redacted,
and we'll publish it soon.

>From the clear text, NONSTOP appears to refer to 
protection against compromising emanations of cryptographic 
systems, and maybe in particular radio crypto systems.

Another document refers to NONSTOP testing and protection
being especially needed on vehicles, planes and ships.

We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text 
below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on 
what NONSTOP means. Joel McNamara has been searching
for NONSTOP info for some time: 

   http://eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html

We would also like to learn more about covert surveillance
by "resonance" technology. Peter Wright, in Spycatcher,
provides most interesting anecdotes about this. He writes
of remotely "radiating" specially-designed objects in a space 
to pick up signals, and tells of several covert operations
in which MI5 used this method.

Wright also describes the use of supersensitive microphones
to pick up the daily setting of rotors on cryptomachines of the 
time, in particular the Hagelins made by CryptoAG.

This loops back to NONSTOP and the question of what may 
be the signatures and compromising emanations of today's 
cryptosystems which reveal information in ways that go beyond 
known sniffers -- indeed, that known sniffers may divertingly 
camouflage. 

Along this line I mention for the nth time that the National Academy
of Science 1996 CRYPTO report, which advocated loosening 
crypto controls, also recommended increased funding for other 
surveillance technologies that have never been identified, although 
Carnivore may be one such, along with keyboard sniffers and who 
knows what else that has been passed to domestic law enforcement 
by the intelligence agencies to crack crypto protection.





From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 08:59:17 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:59:17 -0500
Subject: Idea for tamper-resistant PC hardware
In-Reply-To: <20010112095715.3159.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112085354.007e49a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:09 AM 1/12/01 -0500, drevil at sidereal.kz wrote:
>So here's another solution.  The hard drive itself is encrypted, and
>the encryption/decryption hardware is part of the hard drive chips,
>and all are mounted within a tamper-resistant enclosure.  Also mounted
>in this enclosure is a little battery which will last for the lifetime
>of the harddrive, and a large-enough capacitor.  When the enclosure is
>tampered with, the capacitor sends a jolt through the chip that holds
>the encryption key.  This jolt is big enough to melt the silicon, so
>no key bits could be recovered (this would not require much of a jolt,
>I would think).  Then the attacker would have the hard drive, but no
>way to decrypt it.  Obviously, it would need sensors to detect
>tampering with the case, and tricks liking freezing the thing, using
>radiation, whatever.

That is how its done.  Tamper detect can look for voltages, freqs, 
temps out of range, pressure changes, acceleration, mechanical intrustion,
etc.  If you see tampering, you zeroize your key, your disk is suddently
filled with useless noise.  

There is a patent on thermite-like pastes you can build into a chip, which
helps against reverse engineering the circuitry, post-mortem.  For you,
simple zeroizing will probably be enough; though see the work on remenance
in RAMs for caveats.

>This allows us to have data be permenantly destroyed, and the hard
>drive permenantly deactivated, without doing any crazy stuff involving
>pyrotechnics which looks bad in the media.  

Worse than looking bad, you can't take energetic materials
on airplanes.

Check the archives, this gets discussed periodically, and there
are commercial tamper-resistant/detecting modules out there.

dh




 






  








From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Jan 12 09:07:41 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:07:41 -0500
Subject: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a  Little Boomlet
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110162653.047a5bf0@popserver.panix.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNICEGMCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Just to add an interesting experience to this thread, I've flown to Bermuda
and to the Cayman Islands (not an attractive place, but great diving).  On
the flight to Bermuda the in-flight magazine had several articles discussing
Bermuda's aggressive moves against being a tax haven.  Saw the same kinds of
articles in the magazines while on the beach there.

In stark contrast, the in-flight magazine to the Caymans had several large
advertisements and one govt.-sponsored article promoting the fact that
banking transactions of less than $50,000 (per transaction) are never
reported to law enforcement inquiries unless it has been adquately proven
that the transaction was the result of a drug deal.  Other advertisements
stated the cost of starting a bank (as little as $5K if I remember
correctly) and of starting a private holding company (a little more than
starting your own bank).

Interestingly none of these islands/countries have the SA (societe anonamie
(sp?)) laws of French islands.  An SA company by definition never reveals
the board members, officers, founders, etc.

pz

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Duncan Frissell
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 11:04 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Re: As Dot-Coms Go Bust in the U.S., Bermuda Hosts a Little
Boomlet



At 11:29 AM 1/10/01 +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>One of the interesting, and to my mind odd, things is that they
>*aren't*  "popping up in tax havens around the world". They are popping
>up in little islands that are formally or effectively under British
>colonial rule, if not actually occupied by the British army.

The British colonial possessions discussed in the article are, indeed, tax
havens and have been described as such by every writer on the topic from
the flakiest up to the Economist Intelligence Unit
http://store.eiu.com/description/M727des.asp.

Red Tony's attempt to corral his colonies has been going on for a few years
now.  The OECD has gotten into the act with its Financial Action Task Force
(http://www.oecd.org/fatf/) handling Money Laundering and the OECD, itself,
http://www.oecd.org/daf/fa/harm_tax/harmtax.htm handling what it calls
"Harmful Tax Practices".  By the latter, it means evil countries that set
their taxes too low.  It does not mean the harm involved in tax collection
itself.

The Barbados meeting http://www.oecd.org/media/release/nw00-123a.htm was
co-sponsored by the Commonwealth (formerly the British Commonwealth).  They
released a hopeful closing statement of agreement and cooperation
but  nothing is likely to come of it since the world's largest tax haven
(the US) is never the subject of these talks.

After watching these activities since shortly after the US government
started to crack down on trusts back in 1962, I have learned to ignore what
governments say and watch what they (and the market) actually do.

More important than bank secrecy itself is the ability to easily create
legal entities.  One of the reason that the US is a popular tax haven (for
non-US persons) is because it is so easy to create various business and
personal entities here.

The Net have only made things worse.  With a dozen P2P payment
intermediaries created in the last 18 months or so and hundreds of online
securities brokerages, it's rough for the control forces.

DCF

----
"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold
justice and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of
confidentiality, trust and basic decency between the banks and their
clients."  Imelda Marcos' Prayer for the Swiss Banks - Manila - Sunday 25
February 1996.





From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Fri Jan 12 09:46:37 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:46:37 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF442D6@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Jan 12 10:27:41 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:27:41 -0500
Subject: Idea for tamper-resistant PC hardware
Message-ID: <3A5F4D80.F654222D@lsil.com>


I guess if your critical server is simply some sort of service provider
and the only data requiring security are the operating keys then your
hostile location is OK since rebuilding a system and restoring a few
keys ( which can be hidden just about anywhere ) is easily done.
Otherwise the loss of the data could be costly. 

If your data is static then it would be relatively easy to stash a copy
somewhere. If your data is dynamic then backups are necessary. Backups
can be tracked to their resting place. So their location needs to be (
physically and legally ) secure from the threat(s). Unless you can
readily hand carry the backups to the secure storage area it will need
to be connected in which case you might as well locate your server there
in the first place.





From socio at getyourcasino.com  Fri Jan 12 12:01:19 2001
From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:01:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Alianza Estrategica
Message-ID: <20010112200119.560F712801@ns.luckyscasino.com>

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From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 05:16:02 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:16:02 +0100
Subject: Nader wants global U.N. Net-regulation body; Nader photos
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEFNCAAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <3A5F0392.A2D69EB@ricardo.de>


"Phillip H. Zakas" wrote:
> I do agree with you that in general most people are concerned with their own
> day-to-day lives and cannot or don't care to understand how decisions made
> in Europe or in Washington, DC regarding the internet do, or could, affect
> themselves or those they know. 

right. an organization that helps them to find others of like mind and
can provide them with information and other help on making themselves
heard would be good. an organization that has an agenda of it's own to
push would not be good.

simple as that. just lowering the "barriers of entry" to the lobby
market.




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 05:22:27 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:22:27 +0100
Subject: IP, forwarded posts, and copyright infringement
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
	 <3A5DA310.709BC110@ricardo.de> <20010112002624.D20040@lemuria.org> <a05010401b68435bf60ec@[207.111.241.45]>
Message-ID: <3A5F0513.23A30ED1@ricardo.de>


Tim May wrote:
> >current weapon (after the G3) is the G36, obviously an advanced G3
> >version. I didn't have much time to chat about the subject today, so if
> >anyone wants to know ammo types, more details, whatever - ask and I'll
> >find out.
> >
> 
> Much information on the G36 is readily available on the Web. It is
> not actually very similar to the G3, except for the roller-delayed
> action used by HK in most of their semi-automatic rifles.
> 
> The caliber is, as per current NATO expectations, 5.56 mm.

thanks for the update. I'm not much into weapons, so I only got the
model number and from there concluded - obviously wrong - that it was
based on the G3.




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 05:24:34 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:24:34 +0100
Subject: More on G3s
References: <a05010400b6844eff3e05@[207.111.241.73]>
Message-ID: <3A5F0592.1A2F3C41@ricardo.de>


Tim May wrote:
> And as relates to Choate's "I was right" point, repeated again
> recently, the G3 in use by the German army was most definitely a 7.62
> mm, i.e., a .308 Winchester. It was _not_ the 5.56 mm variant, at
> least not for wide use. (I say this because quibblers like Choate
> like to find examples where _someone_ used a 5.56 mm and then say
> "See, I was RIGHT!")

should be no problem getting an authoritative answer on that. I'll call
my friend again this evening. he's been using that weapon for a couple
of years, he should definitely know which rounds go with it. :)




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Jan 12 14:56:10 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:56:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101121427410.4561-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Are there any good general cryptographic protocols for groups 
taking group actions by formal consensus or voting rules?

I'm thinking of a "distributed agent" that is empowered to do 
various things but which is activated only by a vote of its 
owners.  This would be like a "Robo-moderator" for a newsgroup, 
or a "Robo-Personnel Administrator" for a company's Board of 
directors, or a "Robo-Rater" for a restaurant rating website, 
or....

Crucial facts about a protocol that does the right thing would be: 

1) DOES NOT create any single priveleged user or machine. 

2) Resistant to denial-of-service attacks and attempts to 
   "stack the vote." (Requires user authentication)

3) No altered versions of the agent ought to be able to gather
   enough information to force an action as long as at least 
   the majority of agents are unaltered.

4) Once a consensus is reached, a majority of the agents acting
   together should be able to take whatever action is found
   even if the dissenters' agents don't cooperate with them.
   (a consensus reassembles a key?  But then that key can't 
   be used again, what's the next key?)

				Bear








From Dialpad-att at hotel.Opt-InEmail.com  Fri Jan 12 15:01:11 2001
From: Dialpad-att at hotel.Opt-InEmail.com (Dialpad.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FREE Cell Phone With AT&T Wireless
Message-ID: <200101122301.PAA20851@cyberpass.net>

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From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Jan 12 06:46:04 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:46:04 +0100
Subject: More on G3s
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112075321.446K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A5F18AC.80F15074@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....

ok, so let's play the game and assume you're not just trolling:

> What makes 'your friend' an authority? 

he had the weapon in question in hand pretty much every day for several
years. he trained new recruits on it. I bet he can disassemble, clean
and reassemble it blindfolded. is that enough authority to answer a
simple question on ammunition?


> Why should we take your word for it? 

because I have nothing to gain by stating anything false, while I do
have reputation capital to gain by making truthful statements based on
actual research.


> How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
> friend in collusion?

you are free to come over to germany and verify my existence in person.
in addition, I've been too long on this list to be a prank for this
unimportant issue. third, you can make a call to my company and ask to
be connected to me. ricardo.de happens to be a little too large for tim
to buy up just to create a fake account.


> How do we authenticate your friend (ie pk management)?

web-of-trust. I will authenticate my friend by having a face-to-face
meeting. you can authenticate my words via PGP if you want to, I can
sign the mail. which leaves only me as a possible instance of
introducing false facts, and that point has been answered above.

now as to how to authenticate whether or not my friend is what I claim
he is - well, I'm sure he has the appropriate documents that could be
checked for forgery, etc. if you insist (and pay the costs) that could
surely be arranged.




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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Jan 12 14:40:05 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:40:05 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


John Young wrote:
> We've been unable to retrieve more than a few words from
> the redacted portions (by use of xerography to reveal text
> below the overwrites), and would appreciate any leads on
> what NONSTOP means. Joel McNamara has been searching
> for NONSTOP info for some time:
> 

    I happen to admin a Tandem "NonStop" K-200. Not sure how truly
secure they are, but from my experience I'd say it's more security thru
obscurity than anything else, i.e., almost nobody has any knowledge or
experience with the OS, unlike unix and windoze, so info doesn't get
shared around, etc. The OS is Guardian and is extremely primitive. They
don't run C or anything else known to mankind. Well, there is know a
"unix shell" that runs on top of Guardian, with an extremely limited
command set and functionality, which does allow C code to run, but it's
not accessing low-level stuff, no hardware calls, etc. 
     Tandem was/is used mostly in banks and the like. The "nonstop" is a
bit of a joke, really -- yes, the hardware is robust, everything is
hot-swapable, but the software (at least ours) crashes a lot. You could
have a much better and more robust system with a unix cluster. 
    And of course, Tandem was a dead horse on the verge of bankruptcy
when it was bought by Compaq, about the same time Compaq bought DEC. So
now they've got Tandem "NonStop" servers which run the DEC Alpha
processors and unix. I'm sure Compaq will kill off the old Tandem line
as soon as they can, just like they are with the DEC Vaxes. Support,
yes, but no further development. 
    So the bottom line here is this -- I'd really rather doubt that the
NONSTOP referred to above has anything to do with Tandems. Certainly
they aren't running Tandem stuff on planes and vehicles -- this is heavy
iron -- and if the fedz are depending upon anything as primitive as the
Tandem OS to protect secrets, I pity them. 



-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From gene at gene-haldeman.com  Fri Jan 12 14:56:28 2001
From: gene at gene-haldeman.com (Gene N Haldeman)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:56:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Dell, Unisys and Microsoft -- DUMvoting 1.0!
Message-ID: <mailman.352.1576007489.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

"This Message Can Not Be Considered Spam, Even Though It Is.  
Some Law That Never Was Enacted Says So."

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============================================================================
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Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bf at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 12 15:13:14 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:13:14 -0500
Subject: Crypto sci fi: The Talking Kit
Message-ID: <3A5F8EE5.613A00BD@mindspring.com>



Mary tried to ignore the sobbing of her sister in the next room.  It
had been two days since They came to her village and she was still in
shock.  Two days is the minimum time to wait, Alex had said, before
Talking.  Alex was the fellow from the Engineers Sans Frontiers who
had given her the Kit.  This was not first time she had to use it, but
it was over a year ago... she tried not to remember.

The ESF had come into her wartorn country, as they always did
whereever they saw the poverty that follows tyranny.  The Engineers,
Mary had heard, got their money from some anonymous group of
California Norte businessmen, from that place they called
Sallay-Vallay, but Mary knew little of such distant things.  They had
the geopolitical immunity of the Red Circle or Docteurs Sans Frontiers
agencies but were more like the Corps of Engineers.

The ESF had come to build (or rather, repair) the roads into the
villages.  This was permitted by the Rulers, it was after all free
help.  They could set up  generators but that was about all that the
Rulers wanted the peasants to have.  There were not enough trusted
police to monitor all the calls if every village had phones, after
all.

Besides the bulldozers, chainsaws, and other machinery for turning
jungle into road, the ESF brought equiptment that let them stay in
touch with their headquarters.  They had some kind of telephones, that
didn't need wires.  But their communications were as controlled as the
peasants.  Armed soldiers loitered around the engineers' base and kept
an ear towards the phone station.  The ESF were guests of the Rulers,
dismissable at their whims.  Much like the Soldiers dismissed
peasants in night raids, only with less permenance.

.......


During her regular chores, Mary snuck out to The Place where she had
buried It.  Under the jungle mould was an olive drab case that she
brushed off and lifted out onto the ground.  She unlatched it and took
out the metal box within.  Then she put the waterproof case back under
cover.  She moved away from that site, taking the metal box.

Sitting down, she took a key from around her neck and unlocked it.
Inside was a pocket-sized computer, a solar panel and some batteries,
and a small tin that originally held mints but now had electronics
inside and a pair of buttons and LEDs outside. There were some other
cables in there too.

Mary knew none of these words, indeed she could not read or write.
But Alex had explained to her how to use it, and made her demonstrate
what he had taught until she was confident.

Mary slid the little black stone on the side of the larger, silvery
slab with the shiny window.  It beeped, lit up, then pictures appeared
in the glowing window.  A little blue line at the bottom of the window
was  most of the width of the window, which was good: it
meant she wouldn't need to fill up the little yellow cylinders, which
took a day.  You had to put the cylinders into metal holders in the
back of the blue plate and then leave the plate in the sun for a day.
Blue side up.  And the cylinders had to be pointed the right way, though

there were little pictures near the holders to show you ---the
cylinders had a nipple on one end and were flat on the other.  The
ends had different markings, too, one like the cross worn by the
missionaries who occasionally visited, and one a single line.

It was also possible to make fuel by turning the handle of a little
gadget that Mary had seen, which was good because you didn't have to
wait for the sun, but she didn't have one of those.  One of her
neighbors had a radio that worked with such a handle; turning the
handle for a minute would play about half an hour's worth of music
from the one station that they could hear.  You could see inside this
radio, and there was a coiled spring in there, and it rapidly turned the

shaft of something that actually made the fuel for the cylinders.
Turning the handle coiled the spring, which then turned the
fuel-maker.  How spinning a shaft could make fuel was beyond Mary's
comprehension, but it worked.  The missionaries had been impressed by
Mary's ability to turn fur into fine thread with a spinning shaft, but
you could *see* that; making radio-fuel by spinning was invisible.
That radio had also been a gift from another fellow with the ESR.

The little window now showed a padlock, which told Mary that the box
had checked itself over and was healthy.  She also looked at the sides
of the box, and saw that the wax along its sides was unscratched.  It
wasn't wax exactly, it was wax that hardened into stone, "metal poxxi"
Alex had called it.  It made it very difficult to open the window-box
(except for where you put the cylinders into it), and nearly
impossible to open and put back together without it being evident.
But no one had found the buried case or opened the locked tin or
changed the insides of the window-box.  Alex had explained that she
was trusting the box to protect her secrets, and that if someone
tampered with it it might tell them.  Mary buried these gifts well when
she could not have them with her directly.

Mary studied the box in her hands.  The green thunderbolt of the ESF
was blinking in the window now.  She touched it, and recited a phrase
which she had spoken to the box when Alex had made the box "hers".
Alex had said to memorize that phrase, and tell no one.  And to speak
it only to the box, and only when you are alone with the box.  The
phrase itself made little sense, it was a rhyme her daughter had come
up with when she was younger.  The box, for its part, seemed to know
her voice, because she had to repeat here rhyme a few times when she
had that bad cold.  After a moment, the box chimed and flashed a
picture of Alex as a way of greeting her, then presented several
pictures.

She touched the picture of someone talking.  This caused the scene in
the window to change, presenting her with two little colored squares.
One of them would make the box remember what she said; the other went
back to the first set of window pictures.  Mary touched the first
square and began talking.  When she talked louder, the square was
brighter, and when she spoke softer, it was dim.  Finally she stopped
talking, and after a few seconds the box knew she was done.

Now the box showed her arrows which she knew let her listen to her
message, and decide to send it, save it, or forget it.

She listened to a few seconds of it to make sure it worked. She didn't
think she sounded like the voice she heard, but Alex had said that you
hear yourself differently, and the voice from the box was saying, in
her language, what she had just said.  She wiped away a tear, for she
had described what They had done to her sister's village.

....

Mary put the computer in one pocket, then remembered that the she had
to check that some of the cylinders had fuel for the tin.  Again, the
cylinders had to point in the right direction, but there were pictures
showing how.  She put some into the holders on the bottom of the tin
and pressed a red protrustion, which caused a red light to
light.  When she stopped pressing, the light went off.  This meant
that the tin had fuel too.  She put the tin, with cylinders still in
their holders, into a pocket on the other side, and trudged off
further into the forest.

Now she had to find one of the wires.

........

Which had she used before?  The one by the East Hill she remembered,
so this time she would go right at the Big Rock and use the wire on
the West Hill.  Alex had explained that when you use a wire, everyone
can hear you, so its important to use different wires and different
times, so anyone who'se trying to find you has a harder time of it.

........

She rested after she found the tree with the wire.  She ate some hard
bread
and cheese, and her mind drifted to the story Alex had told her.  The
window-box remembers what you said to it.  It makes what you said
"smaller" and hides it in a krypt ---the missionaries had mentioned
krypts, they apparently kept corpses in them, something that disgusted
her, but these were strangers, from far away, after all.  Maybe they
didn't have wood to burn to purify the bodies, so they *stored*
them... ick.  So the window box, picking up the train of thought,
takes my voice, shrinks it, hides it, then tells it to the tin...

Mary jerked, realizing that she might have forgotten to bring the
cables, but she had grabbed them without realizing it, they were in
the same pocket as the tin.  She didn't want to have to make the trip
out to the wire twice.

The tin uses the wire to shout my hidden voice, she mused.  How
ironic, They try to keep us silent, so we are forced to shout ---with
hidden voices.

And Alex, miles away, was able to hear the inaudible shout, unhide it,
and pass it on.  It was like the radio Mary's neighbor had, she
realized, only the radio shout was not hidden.  Alex had explained
that even if They were listening, they would not hear her voice on
their radios.

And while Mary could only talk to Alex, Alex explained that he could
talk (and write!) to people far away.  Many people; and all their
conversations could be private.  Mary didn't see how this was
possible, her Talker only worked with Alex in the field camp, but
that's all she needed and Alex said it made it easier to use if it
worked this way.

Mary pressed the red button again, and the light indicated the
batteries hadn't dislodged.  She found one cable and plugged one end
into the tin, attached the other to the wire which went up into the
tree.  Then she took another cable and connected the window box to the
tin.  The ends of the cables had different shapes and there was only
one way to fit them together.

Ok, now she was ready to shout.  She pressed a different, green button
on the tin, which caused a green light to glow.  This button stayed
pushed-in when she took her fingers away.

Then she went to the window-box, and found the picture of the letter.
She tapped this twice, and a picture of two gears turning was animated
on the screen.  There was also a short line displayed, which grew as
minutes passed.  This was like the fuel-line, the longer the line the
more voice had been shouted.  In fact, as Mary waited, she saw the
fuel-line shrink.

But the gears stopped and the picture changed back to the green
thunderbolt.  This meant that her voice had been sent.  She hoped Alex
would listen to it soon, because it was urgent.  She knew that Alex
didn't have to be listening, that his window-box would hold her voice
for him like it held it during the jungle-walk to the wire.

She pressed the green button again and the glow stopped.  She then
moved the stone on the window box and its window darkened.  Pulling
the cables loose, she slipped them into her pocket, hid the end of the
wire, and departed.



......

A lot had happened.  Their had been more fighting, and distant flashes
and booms, and talk that They had been replaced.  Mary had heard of no
more raids for some time, and people from the "new" goverment had
eventually visited and explained that Fear was over.  They even tried
to explain a list of "rights" or "freedoms" that Mary now had.  Mary
thought this was rather scary, perhaps a trap, but over the months
that followed she saw that one could speak, or travel, or meet freely
and that They did not roam at night any more.

There had been talk that the Gringos had helped the resistance, which
had been hopelessly weaker than the well armed Rulers had been.  There
was now talk that vehicles with the ESF's green thunderbolt had been
seen in the city, and so Mary found an excuse to travel there.

She stayed in a church there, which was accustomed to helping the
locals when they came to town, and had the priest there try to contact
Alex
through the ESF people in town.  During the last day she could stay
before returning, the priest explained that he had contacted Alex but
that he was unable to visit; but he had sent something for her.

The priest held a small black box in his hand, different from the ones
in her Talking kit, and led her to another room.  He turned on a large
box with a window that glowed, but showed no picture.  He slid the
black box into an opening in the large glowing box, and moving
pictures appeared in the big window.   There were rows of Outsiders,
dressed more like the missionaries than Alex's more jungle adapted
garb.  The priest explained.

"This is a movie of the Gringo Rulers, and they are deciding what to
do about the Tyrants they helped us evict.  Many of them distrusted
the Tyrants but had no evidence of his crimes ---did you know that all
our
telephones were listened to, back then?"

"Anyway, this is a real movie.  About four months ago.  The Gringos
are trying to deciding if the Atrocity stories have any truth.  This
was hard for them, because they are far away, you know, and They
controlled what the world thought about us.  But this is the meeting
where they decided to help us."

That is nice, Mary interrupted, somewhat hypnotized by the moving
pictures.  But what has this to do with me?

"Look there.  Do you recognize him?"  Alex was there, he was facing
the rows of people dressed like missionaries, and he was holding
something up.  Everyone was looking at him.  What an odd thing to send
me, Mary thought; I can't make out his face very well.

"Wait, dear, I have to turn the volume up." said the priest, twisting
a knob.  And Mary heard that voice.. the one that the window-box
repeats when she talked to it.. saying what Mary had said.. to the
Gringo
Rulers..

(c) 2000












From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 15:17:06 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:17:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101121427410.4561-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101121808110.8719-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> 
> 
> Are there any good general cryptographic protocols for groups 
> taking group actions by formal consensus or voting rules?

There are distributed signing protocols which could go partway towards
meeting this goal. For some details, you can look at the IBM project on
"Proactive Security" 
	http://www.hrl.il.ibm.com/Proactive/ 

They've implemented some of the protocols involved; there's a paper in ACM
CCS 5 I think which gives the API for their "Proactive Security Toolkit."
Java 1.1 implementation of distributed DSA signatures. Unfortunately, the
web page, which advertises a download for 8/99, seems to be out of date. 

	http://www.hrl.il.ibm.com/Proactive/project.html 

Now, if you could get your hands on this, then you could do what you want
by having each voter hold a share of the distributed secret key. The
voters agree amongst themselves however on what orders to sign, and then
execute distributed key signing to sign an order. The robot doesn't do
anything unless it receives a valid signed order. 

-David





From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jan 12 15:25:24 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:25:24 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3A5F87AB.8699B80@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200101122333.SAA30321@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Joel McNamara first told me about NONSTOP and its commonly
associated classified codeword, HIJACK, both somehow related
to Tempest. 

When you do a search on either of them you get hundreds 
(or 1000s) of hits for the generic terms "non-stop" and "hi-jack" 
but few entries for the codewords, and then as standards in 
military security documents. 

It's as if the codewords were picked to be camouflaged by the 
generics. And, because codewords are usually set to have
no relation to the protected material, they probably are not 
descriptive -- but could be, just to outfox off the smarties.

The NONSTOP doc released to us was first issued in 1975 
and has gone through 4 reprintings, the latest in 1987. And 
it continues to be cited as still in effect, though usually such 
standards are updated at least every 5 years. So there may
be a later one which would account for the partial release
after first denial.

It's intriguing to read Spycatcher (1987) while reading the 
Tempest docs. I had not read Wright's most informative
book, and regret not having done so.

For those who have not read it, Peter Wright was MI5's
first scientist, and entered the service after WW2. He
specialized in the technology of counterintelligence and
with a few others cooked up a host of ingenious means
to spy on spies and suspects. A specialty was the
extraordinary use of electromagnetic devices -- radio, 
telephone, acoustic, resonance, and more -- applying 
scientific abilities well in advance of technicians and 
engineers. Some of his ideas were so advanced his
bosses said impossible, until he proved effectiveness. 
Then Wright quickly became the savior of bureaucrats 
who could not understand why Britain's enemies kept 
outsmarting them -- usually with advanced technological 
means. Wright changed that, but often got at odds with 
non-scientifically trained personnel.

Among others, he worked closely with GCHQ on occasion 
to provide technical attacks on cryptosystems which could 
not be broken by cryptanalysis. Thus his research on the 
cryptosecrets revealed by compromising emanations from 
devices, cabling, furniture, construction materials, and a host
of ordinary physical objects -- all of which emitted signals that
could be acquired and interpreted by careful tuning for 
comprehension. He writes of amazing methods of acquiring 
signals, and it is no wonder HMG fought to prevent publication 
of Spycatcher.

What he did not write about must be even more wondrous, 
and it makes you think he could pick up your brain waves
if you were part of particular triangulated antenna.

Maybe NONSTOP and HIJACK have nothing to do with
the stuff Wright excelled at. Still, reading Spycatcher
along with the Tempest docs -- and now Stephen
Budiansky's "Battle of Wits: The Complete Story of
Codebreaking in World War II," (2000) -- certainly
demonstrates how much of codebreaking has been
done by covert technical and physical means, even
as we are told misleading cover stories.

Are the crypto-revelations also disinformation?
Historically all have been.  Ha, ha, ha.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:18:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:18:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b684ebbd99c9@[207.111.241.25]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112191717.446U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Tim May wrote:

> At 7:55 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Not to be contrary but the crypto relationship is just too much....
> >
> >What makes 'your friend' an authority? Why should we take your word for
> >it? How do we know that you're not Tim via an alternate account or a
> >friend in collusion?
> >
> 
> So, Jim Choate has evolved to the "Tom is a tentacle of Tim" stage of dementia.

No, simply pointing out that you've admitted to use this anonymously. No
reason to suspect you couldn't be this person either.

No claim for actuality, just an observation of potentiality.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From reeza at flex.com  Fri Jan 12 21:39:53 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:39:53 -1000
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b684ec90cb41@[207.111.241.176]>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>


At 09:29 AM 1/12/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
 >At 7:45 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
 >>Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
 >>rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
 >>When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93)
 >>class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
 >>IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
 >>lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
 >>hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.
 >
 >Nonsense. I have known what a 91 and a 93 (and a 94) were for many
 >years. Almost bought a 91 in 1975, _did_ buy a clone.
 >
 >You still haven't responded to what I sent out after my own search of
 >the archives:

More important (to me) than quibbles about model numbers,
and I've not yet seen it addressed in this forum;

At 12:06 AM 1/11/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:

 >NATO was planning to standardize on the 7.62 mm NATO round for
 >its main battle rifle. (The length was 54 mm, hence "7.62 x 54 NATO."

7.62 x 54?

54?

You wrote it twice, so don't claim it was a typo,,,

Reese




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:44:02 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:44:02 -0600
Subject: An example of Tim's confusion...
Message-ID: <3A5FB2E2.B13A6BD5@ssz.com>


Hey Tim,

Seems you felt the 91 came in other calibres than .308 too...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.18-1997.12.24/msg00390.html

Where's your correction?

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 16:47:00 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:47:00 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b684efb8892f@[207.111.241.176]>
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:32 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>
>The Tandem Computers "NONSTOP" was a product line in use by various 
>government agencies for secure (fault-tolerant) computing for a long 
>time. I'd look there for starters.

(I thought this was too speculative, but given Tim's guess..)

I have also thought that NONSTOP refers to fault-tolerant under high-RF
conditions.   Also useful when flying (etc.) near your own antennas,
dishes, etc.

A sort of military version of the FCC standard for consumer electronics: 
doesn't emit bad (informative) radiation, accepts bad radiation without
interference.

Note that shielding that worked for tempest would also help nonstop;
and that some of the gear at a testing site (antennas) serves
both purposes.

(After reading  Harmon Seaver's piece) Since this is the NSA, maybe they
were testing that high-RF environments didn't cause info leakage -someone
else tests that the stuff simply works under field conditions.  Maybe the
thing they wanted not stopped was tempest protection.





 






  








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:50:15 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:50:15 -0600
Subject: Fuck you Tim.
Message-ID: <3A5FB457.304DCE07@ssz.com>

Yep, I never recognize my mistakes. Not once...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.25-1997.12.31/msg00100.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 17:53:22 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:53:22 -0600
Subject: And speaking of bad memory or intenional shit stirring...
Message-ID: <3A5FB512.F7900142@ssz.com>

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.25-1997.12.31/msg00119.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:02:25 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:02:25 -0600
Subject: And abou that Gauss thing...
Message-ID: <3A5FB731.5D598AAA@ssz.com>


What's that about Gauss's Law not operating on a sphere?...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.11.23-98.11.29/msg00038.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:03:35 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:03:35 -0600
Subject: Another genious on physics...
Message-ID: <3A5FB777.AB3D358A@ssz.com>

Like the sparks don't release charge that gets distributed via Gauss's Law
to the OUTSIDE of the sphere...

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.11.09-98.11.15/msg00035.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 17:09:42 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:09:42 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101121427410.4561-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:01 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>Crucial facts about a protocol that does the right thing would be: 
>
>1) DOES NOT create any single priveleged user or machine. 
>
>2) Resistant to denial-of-service attacks and attempts to 
>   "stack the vote." (Requires user authentication)
>
>3) No altered versions of the agent ought to be able to gather
>   enough information to force an action as long as at least 
>   the majority of agents are unaltered.
>
>4) Once a consensus is reached, a majority of the agents acting
>   together should be able to take whatever action is found
>   even if the dissenters' agents don't cooperate with them.
>   (a consensus reassembles a key?  But then that key can't 
>   be used again, what's the next key?)
>

Interesting idea.  Starting with 1 user who can admit (by virtue 
of having 100% of the vote) and then letting the users vote
to add others.  

I don't think reassembling the key is the final stage.  I think
the server could simply use a voting protocol to get (or timeout) 
permission to do proposed actions.  We are assuming that the server
is trusted, right?  

The server could send signed PGP-encrypted email to all members saying: 
"The following script has been proposed to be run by GroupServer for your
Group.. to vote yes or no, sign a yes or no message and encrypt and send it
to GroupServer.  This vote closes in 3 days, and votes are acknowleged
immediately."


Perhaps I'm not clear on what constitutes an action that could
be distributed without relying on a trusted actor (server).  

(Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
of the DB?  




 






  








From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Fri Jan 12 17:10:15 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:10:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200101130110.UAA09403@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com>



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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:36:06 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:36:06 -0600
Subject: About those EM waves, Gauss's Law, and somebodies fucked up physics...& incomplete CH archives
Message-ID: <3A5FBF16.E3372576@ssz.com>


http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1998.11.02-1998.11.08/msg00169.html

If the waves aren't reflected where do they go? The Faraday Cage is the only
place since it's absorbing them. What happens when that happens? A charge
builds up on the cage. Then what happens? The charge leaks away to Earth.
What happens when a charge flows? A current you say? And then what? A EM
field you say?

Wow, and we build detectors for both static and dynamic fields. Imagine
that.

What happens is this:

EM field strikes ungrounded Faraday Cage. This induces a current in cage
conserving the energy of the EM Field. When that field goes away the
electrons in the cage now have energy over their ground state. So what does
a happy electron do when it has extra energy and wants to go to ground? It
gives it away. What do we call that? EM radiation or radio/light/heat.
Easily detectable. Don't ground the shield you're just making an antenna.
One kind of antenna like this is called a box antenna. It also happens to be
why they build stealth planes out of something other than conductors (ask
yourself how that flat plate 'reflects' the radar).

If an electron always seeks the shortest path (which it doesn't, it hops
around quantum like and is only probabilisticaly taking the shortest path,
this old wives tail ignores the 'like charges repel' rule) then how come
lightening branches?  How come lightening is several inches to a couple of
feet in diameter.
Are you saying a tube is a shorter path than a line? Are you saying that two
paths through the air have EXACTLY the same resistance? That's pretty
unlikely yet almost all lightening has branching.

And if a spark gap is actually conserving charge (it doesn't, if it did a
spark gap radio wouldn't work) then where does all that Ozone come from?
What do you thing happens when the ozone breaks down with the first UV
photon that comes bopping along? They break apart and make O2 and O (which
has a charge).

I did notice while tooling around the CH Archive that it's not complete.
There are at least two posts in the 'Gauss' discussion that were a responce
to emails later on in the discussion (graphics showing ways to build
'batteries' that had excess charge in contravention to the supposition
proposed that all batteries had to have no excess charge to distribute to
the sphere).


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________


           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:56:44 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:56:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: An example of Tim's confusion...
In-Reply-To: <01eb01c07d06$4a56eb60$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112205532.446i-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I didn't quote it, I sent the entire message. Tim says HO 91 (.308
calibre) as if there were others.

Moot point really. The real demonstration here is that even Tim gets
confused. So his throwing shit at others for behaviour he participates in
is just silly.

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Me wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
> > Hey Tim, seems you felt the 91 came in other calibres than .308
> too...
> >
> http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.18-1997.12.24/msg
> 00390.html
> > Where's your correction?
> 
> In that message, Tim appears to say that the HK-91 is .308,
> compared to the HK-93 which is .223.  This is correct.  It is
> clearer if you read his original post, instead of your message
> that quotes it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:57:52 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:57:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim on E&M
In-Reply-To: <3A5FBE40.9DC55B86@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112205706.446j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:

> When it comes to E&M you're really off in the tall grass.

Really? I've been damned succesful with it over the last 25 years.

If you really believe that grounding is NOT REQUIRED for sheilding then
it's not I who knows nothing about emissive EM.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From commerce at home.com  Fri Jan 12 18:12:32 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:12:32 -0500
Subject: An example of Tim's confusion...
References: <3A5FB2E2.B13A6BD5@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <01eb01c07d06$4a56eb60$0100a8c0@golem>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
> Hey Tim, seems you felt the 91 came in other calibres than .308
too...
>
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.12.18-1997.12.24/msg
00390.html
> Where's your correction?

In that message, Tim appears to say that the HK-91 is .308,
compared to the HK-93 which is .223.  This is correct.  It is
clearer if you read his original post, instead of your message
that quotes it.






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Jan 12 18:28:14 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:28:14 -0500
Subject: Jim on E&M
Message-ID: <3A5FBE40.9DC55B86@lsil.com>


Jim,

I remember that whole Faraday cage discussion - it was painful.

When it comes to E&M you're really off in the tall grass.

Mike





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From: brain0 at 371.net (brain0 at 371.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:17:07 +0000
Subject: Affrdable Vacation Packages
Message-ID: <vqkg8e6f.8ii44v0anw8yujerdd@beverly.babit.com>


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From declan at well.com  Fri Jan 12 19:28:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:28:58 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:47:00PM -0500
References: <200101121702.MAA27817@blount.mail.mindspring.net> <a05010402b684efb8892f@[207.111.241.176]> <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20010112225629.A26805@cluebot.com>


David's suggestion makes sense to me. But if NONSTOP is a codeword, it
would be classified at least secret, and manufacturers of such
products would be discouraged by their customers at NSA from labeling
their products with such a name.

-Declan


On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:47:00PM -0500, David Honig wrote:
> At 12:32 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
> >
> >The Tandem Computers "NONSTOP" was a product line in use by various 
> >government agencies for secure (fault-tolerant) computing for a long 
> >time. I'd look there for starters.
> 
> (I thought this was too speculative, but given Tim's guess..)
> 
> I have also thought that NONSTOP refers to fault-tolerant under high-RF
> conditions.   Also useful when flying (etc.) near your own antennas,
> dishes, etc.
> 
> A sort of military version of the FCC standard for consumer electronics: 
> doesn't emit bad (informative) radiation, accepts bad radiation without
> interference.
> 
> Note that shielding that worked for tempest would also help nonstop;
> and that some of the gear at a testing site (antennas) serves
> both purposes.
> 
> (After reading  Harmon Seaver's piece) Since this is the NSA, maybe they
> were testing that high-RF environments didn't cause info leakage -someone
> else tests that the stuff simply works under field conditions.  Maybe the
> thing they wanted not stopped was tempest protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 12 19:54:03 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:54:03 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <20010112225629.A26805@cluebot.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010112164641.007f1100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010112195316.007dc7d0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:56 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>David's suggestion makes sense to me. But if NONSTOP is a codeword, it
>would be classified at least secret, and manufacturers of such
>products would be discouraged by their customers at NSA from labeling
>their products with such a name.
>
>-Declan

I agree... this remains a problem with my thesis.  Perhaps it is
from an earlier time, before they randomly chose short words or word-pairs
from lists as opaque labels?  

I just finished Rowlett's _Magic_ and in there, someone
had to point out to the SIS cryptanalysts that you shouldn't refer to what
the ca. WWII Japanese called "Cipher Machine, type A" in English as the
"type A machine".   Thus their arbitrary designators ("red", "purple") were
chosen.


------
The great thing about humans is they can come up with a theory for anything.






 






  








From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jan 12 23:17:08 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:17:08 -0800
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b685b1347a49@[207.111.241.220]>


At 7:39 PM -1000 1/12/01, Reese wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 1/12/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>At 7:45 AM -0600 1/12/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>>>Go back to the archives and you will find Tim May claiming that ANY HK
>>>rifle with *3 (eg 93 or G3) is a .223 whereas the *1's (eg 91) are .308.
>>>When in fact the '3 means .223' applied ONLY to the '90' (ie 91 or 93)
>>>class weapons. The reality (which Tim never admited either) is that a G3
>>>IS in fact a 91, or the other way around if you prefer historical
>>>lineage. The G3 was the mil-spec and the 91 was the civilian clone. But
>>>hey, since when was Tim interested in FACTS? Never.
>>
>>Nonsense. I have known what a 91 and a 93 (and a 94) were for many
>>years. Almost bought a 91 in 1975, _did_ buy a clone.
>>
>>You still haven't responded to what I sent out after my own search of
>>the archives:
>
>More important (to me) than quibbles about model numbers,
>and I've not yet seen it addressed in this forum;
>
>At 12:06 AM 1/11/01 -0500, Tim May wrote:
>
>>NATO was planning to standardize on the 7.62 mm NATO round for
>>its main battle rifle. (The length was 54 mm, hence "7.62 x 54 NATO."
>
>7.62 x 54?
>
>54?
>

51.

I acknowledge my mistake. Doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 21:23:14 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:23:14 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130010410.28940-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

> (Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
> N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
> reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
> of the DB?  

One way to address this problem is to use secret sharing. Everyone gets
a share. Only a certain threshold need to cooperate to reconstruct.
Everyone's secret counts the same, so in order to deny service you need to
have fewer than threshold non-cooperatives. 

You never reconstruct the database in one place. Instead, you figure out a
clever way to do a distributed query on the database shares, such that at
the end of the protocol, out pops the result. There are plausibility
results due to Ben-Or, Goldwasser, Goldreich, Wigderson, and others about
this under the name "secure multiparty computation." Briefly, if you can
express a boolean F function with n inputs, then n parties can get
together and evaluate F(x1,x2,...,xn) such that
	
	* everyone learns the output
	* no one learns anything about an xi not their own

So in particular you can build an F() which reconstructs a database from
shares x1,x2,...xn and then runs a query on the database. Only the results
of the query are output; the theorems tell you that the shares stay
secret.

"So is it practical?" The answer is NO. These protocols tell you how to
secure multiparty compute a function gate by gate. With nontrivial
computational overhead and communication per gate. But, hey, at least it's
possible!

-David





From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Fri Jan 12 21:25:18 2001
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:25:18 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Crypto Query
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112195316.007dc7d0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <20010112225629.A26805@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010113002447.010bc880@ct2.nai.net>


-=|[ duuh... ]|=-

"NONSTOP" is moreso a protocol and general criteria for operations. It is
not soley restricted to physical, TEMPEST, hij/abduct, intel, crypto, or
any other specific protection mechanism.

NONSTOP is more a general idea and concept, with implications and
implementations across all interrelated elements which probibly 'shouldn't
stop'...

JYA has an email from me directly with more basic info/'theory'. (he will
review and use whatever content desired thereof)

You note NONSTOP"" with hijack type associated logic... Although these
phrases refer to some unknown ic/dod/etc protocols, it is also quite well
founded in reality... 

NONSTOP protections prevent hijack. End of point. How? Research this.

A previous cp CDR message about a year ago referenced HIJACK/NONSTOP
training at the afb in san-antonio TX... It had TEMPEST shielding protocol
as a parallel course to NONSTOP... 

Any logical speculation as to why?

-- With 'baaah' in mind,

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com


-=|[.]|=-





At 10:54 PM 1/12/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:56 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>David's suggestion makes sense to me. But if NONSTOP is a codeword, it
>>would be classified at least secret, and manufacturers of such
>>products would be discouraged by their customers at NSA from labeling
>>their products with such a name.
>>
>>-Declan
>






From bear at sonic.net  Fri Jan 12 21:30:23 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:30:23 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101122103330.18893-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:

>the server could simply use a voting protocol to get (or timeout) 
>permission to do proposed actions.  We are assuming that the server
>is trusted, right?  

Actually, no.  That creates a single priveleged machine, which is 
also a point of failure, which is also a point of attack, which is 
also subject to subpeonas or outright theft.  Ideally, this is 
something that runs on the distributed machines of the participants.
I think that's the only way to be safe from the "lawsuit attack".


>Perhaps I'm not clear on what constitutes an action that could
>be distributed without relying on a trusted actor (server).  


For example, consider a robo-moderated mailing list formed by 
cat owners.  They have a "posting protocol" that requires you 
to submit a digital coin worth a dollar or two along with your 
letter.  If enough people click on the "this is spam" button, 
the group agents donate the coin to an animal shelter and you 
can't spend it. Otherwise, you get your coin back when your 
message expires.  

The posting protocols etc. are wrapped in scripts, of course; 
on your end you get a message box that says "Are you willing 
to post a two-dollar bond that says most of the people on the 
list don't think this is spam?"  and yes/no buttons.  The 
subscribers just have another little button on their mail 
reader - So it goes Next message, delete, reply, reply all, 
spam.

I'd really like it if somebody has figured out a way for a 
group to form consensus and act on that consensus as though 
it were a single individual -- capable of participating in 
general protocols.  

But individual solutions to problems like the above would 
be a great start. 

				Bear




>At 06:01 PM 1/12/01 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>
>>Crucial facts about a protocol that does the right thing would be: 
>>
>>1) DOES NOT create any single priveleged user or machine. 
>>
>>2) Resistant to denial-of-service attacks and attempts to 
>>   "stack the vote." (Requires user authentication)
>>
>>3) No altered versions of the agent ought to be able to gather
>>   enough information to force an action as long as at least 
>>   the majority of agents are unaltered.
>>
>>4) Once a consensus is reached, a majority of the agents acting
>>   together should be able to take whatever action is found
>>   even if the dissenters' agents don't cooperate with them.
>>   (a consensus reassembles a key?  But then that key can't 
>>   be used again, what's the next key?)
>>
>
>Interesting idea.  Starting with 1 user who can admit (by virtue 
>of having 100% of the vote) and then letting the users vote
>to add others.  
>
>I don't think reassembling the key is the final stage.  I think
>the server could simply use a voting protocol to get (or timeout) 
>permission to do proposed actions.  We are assuming that the server
>is trusted, right?  

>The server could send signed PGP-encrypted email to all members saying: 
>"The following script has been proposed to be run by GroupServer for your
>Group.. to vote yes or no, sign a yes or no message and encrypt and send it
>to GroupServer.  This vote closes in 3 days, and votes are acknowleged
>immediately."
>
>
>(Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
>N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
>reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
>of the DB?  
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 22:01:59 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:01:59 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101122103330.18893-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130051060.16038-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> list don't think this is spam?"  and yes/no buttons.  The 
> subscribers just have another little button on their mail 
> reader - So it goes Next message, delete, reply, reply all, 
> spam.

Well, the totally trivial and stupid thing is for a list reader to
sign a message saying "I think message X is spam" and send it to the list
server. Actually, he doesn't even have to send the message; he can just
send the signature if the message is in some canonical format. 

The server can verify the signature, verify the user's ID, increment a
counter, and throw away the signature. When the counter passes a
threshold T, -chomp- the server eats the bond. 
The server can even keep the signatures around if it wants to prove to the
luser later that yes, lots of people really did think his message was
spam. 

This has at least two problems

	1) Identifies the user who says "I think this is spam." 
	Not a good idea in principle, possibly not a good idea in
	practice. A potential solution would be a way for a user
	to sign a message in such a way that

		* no one can determine which individual public key signed 
		the message 
	
		* yet anyone can determine that the signer's public key
		belongs to a specific set of public keys (chosen by the
		signer and fixed at signature time to avoid the problem
		with "well, remove one public key and try again!")
		in this case, the set of eligible list voters.

	There's probably some crypto voting paper which solves a problem
	much like this. I'm not up on that. 

	2) Keeping an audit trail so the server can prove that the
	majority really did think message X was spam. With this proposal
	audit trails consist of up to T signatures, where T is the 
	threshold used to trigger the spam alert. At like 1K per signature
	and many e-mails, this could be sizable. 

-David





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jan 12 22:38:04 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:38:04 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130051060.16038-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130127470.29069-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>



> 
> Well, the totally trivial and stupid thing is for a list reader to
> sign a message saying "I think message X is spam" and send it to the list

Sorry, I re-read your message and noted the requirement to ahve no central
server. How about this:

	1) To post a message, sender S takes a 2-dollar coin and then
	uses some kind of verifiable secret sharing protocol to split it
	into shares.

	2) S sends the shares to the group agents. 

	3) Each group agent verifies that it has a share consistent with
	the other group agents (see Byzantine Agreement for this one).
	If any share fails, then something bad happens (what?). The
	other problem is what happens if S just submitted a bunch of
	garbage; I'm not sure how to deal with this DoS attack. 

	4) If a group agent thinks the message is spam, it sends its
	share to Engineers Sans Frontiers or whoever. Otherwise it keeps
	mum.

Now if enough group agents (1/2, 1/3, whatever) think the message is spam,
enough shares collect at step 4) to reconstruct the 2-dollar coin.
Otherwise not enough shares collect and the coin is never reconstructed.
Presumably S kept a copy and can spend it later. 

No central server now, just needs a verifiable secret sharing scheme.
Pedersen has one, and another is part of the Proactive Security work I
mentioned previously. 

-David 







From drhabib at y.net.ye  Fri Jan 12 15:42:43 2001
From: drhabib at y.net.ye (dr.habib)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:42:43 +0300
Subject: FREE Memberships today! 
Message-ID: <000901c07cf1$6e2a4380$0c055ec3@habib>

 free membership 
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From dsokol at osnut.com  Sat Jan 13 05:41:53 2001
From: dsokol at osnut.com (dsokol at osnut.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:41:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Exciting New Nutraceutical Company- Promote your own ideas!
Message-ID: <200101131341.FAA14652@toad.com>

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From declan at well.com  Sat Jan 13 05:52:59 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:52:59 -0500
Subject: GOP hopes for more porn prosecutions; Bush to weigh MS case
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010113085248.00a35a00@mail.well.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41164,00.html

    As the Porn Peril Turns
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Jan. 13, 2001 PST
    WASHINGTON -- The peril of online porn is why John Ashcroft should be
    the next attorney general, conservative organizations said on Friday.

    At a press conference organized to support Ashcroft's embattled
    nomination, the groups predicted that, among his other virtues, he
    would kick off a wave of Net-sex prosecutions.

    Beverly LaHaye of Concerned Women for America said that Ashcroft,
    unlike Attorney General Janet Reno, would enforce "laws against
    obscenity."

    Donna Rice-Hughes, the former Gary Hart gal pal turned antiporn
    activist, described herself as an "Internet safety advocate in support
    of John Ashcroft for attorney general."

    "The $1.5 billion online porn industry has continued to prosper with
    an anything-goes green light from the current Justice Department,"
    said Rice-Hughes, who founded Enough is Enough.

    "When George W. won, the porn industry lost," said Rice-Hughes, who
    claimed that online prurience "exploits women, preys on men and
    invades the innocence of (America's) children."

    [...]



http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41163,00.html

    DOJ Pushes Case Against MS
    by Declan McCullagh
    9:45 a.m. Jan. 12, 2001 PST

    President-elect George W. Bush and his cabinet will soon decide what
    to do about the Microsoft antitrust case, a spokesman said on Friday.

    "The incoming administration and the incoming attorney general will
    review them and make any decisions as necessary," Ari Fleischer,
    Bush-Cheney transition spokesman, said in response to a question about
    Microsoft and other lawsuits the Clinton administration has filed.

    Fleischer, at the daily transition press conference, said he would not
    comment further on the Microsoft case. But he said that in general,
    Bush believes that the feds "too often engage in litigation to solve
    problems."

    "The president-elect will not rush to litigate the way some folks in
    Washington enjoy litigating," Fleischer said.

    [...] 




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Jan 13 12:29:21 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:29:21 -1000
Subject: More on G3s
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b685b1347a49@[207.111.241.220]>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010112071131.446G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010112193633.00c96d50@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010113102845.00d49220@flex.com>


At 11:17 PM 1/12/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
 >At 7:39 PM -1000 1/12/01, Reese wrote:

 >>54?
 >>
 >
 >51.
 >
 >I acknowledge my mistake. Doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

I know, I'm just quibbling,,,  ;)

Reese




From hummertwo at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 13 12:16:17 2001
From: hummertwo at hotmail.com (hummertwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:16:17
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE!!! ....A Complete Maketing Package!!!
Message-ID: <150.304532.269529@mail.netidea.com>


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From sales at spyworld.co.uk  Sat Jan 13 13:41:33 2001
From: sales at spyworld.co.uk (Spyword)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:41:33
Subject: Surveillance and Counter Surveillance
Message-ID: <200101131340.FAA14605@toad.com>


 cypherpunks at toad.com recently visited Spyworld Ltd, Spyworld Ltd specialise in providing
surveillance  and counter surveillance equipment.

to find out more go to www.spyworld.co.uk

Regards,

Marketing Division
Spyworld Ltd




From sales at spyworld.co.uk  Sat Jan 13 13:41:41 2001
From: sales at spyworld.co.uk (Spyword)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:41:41
Subject: Surveillance and Counter Surveillance
Message-ID: <200101131343.FAA00396@cyberpass.net>


 cypherpunks at cyberpass.net recently visited Spyworld Ltd, Spyworld Ltd specialise in providing
surveillance  and counter surveillance equipment.

to find out more go to www.spyworld.co.uk

Regards,

Marketing Division
Spyworld Ltd




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Jan 13 10:42:44 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:42:44 -0500
Subject: cell phone anonymity
Message-ID: <NDBBIFGOKODBCKDGJDKLKEMPFDAA.shamrock@cypherpunks.to>


GSM phones do indeed broadcast their International Mobile Equipment Number
(IMEI). The IMIE is hardcoded into the firmware of each phone. Changing the
IMIE is possible, but not from the UI. Recently, the manufacturers have
announced that they will make it even more difficult to alter IMEI's in the
future.

--Lucky Green <shamrock at cypherpunks.to>

  "Anytime you decrypt... its against the law".
   Jack Valenti, President, Motion Picture Association of America in
   a sworn deposition, 2000-06-06


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cypherpunks at openpgp.net [mailto:cypherpunks at openpgp.net]On Behalf
> Of Mats O. Bergstrom
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 14:53
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: cell phone anonymity
>
>
> At 10:06 2001-01-07 -0800, montag montag wrote:
> >Please post the actual experiences about obtaining a
> >pre-paid cell phone
>
> GSM/Europe
> 1) Buy a cell phone and pay cash
> 2) Buy a GSM cash-card and pay cash
> 3) Don4t send in the registration form to get that extra half hour!  :-)
>
> To stall traffic analysis - buy many GSM cash-cards and change
> frequently - they are only around USD 10 (not counting the prepaid
> calling time). I don't believe the cell phone is sending it's serial
> number (but who - except for deep insiders and possibly Lucky Green -
> knows for sure?).
>
> //Mob
>
>
>





From hummertwo at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 13 14:09:15 2001
From: hummertwo at hotmail.com (hummertwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:09:15
Subject: FREE SOFTWARE!!! ....A Complete Maketing Package!!!
Message-ID: <776.791635.876341@mail.netidea.com>


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*  FREE Internet Training! 
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*  FREE E-Book Creation Software! 
*  FREE HTML Editing Program!
*  FREE FFA's! 
*  FREE Autoresponders! 
*  FREE Report - Creating Profitable Ads! 
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From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Jan 13 12:01:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:01:27 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130010410.28940-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010112170626.007db100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010113114410.007e8b80@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:23 AM 1/13/01 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>
>On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> (Thinking out loud) Maybe the actions require access to a distributed
>> N-of-M database?   How do you prevent someone from reusing the
>> reconstructed database?  Or uncooperatives refusing to update their slice
>> of the DB?  
>
>One way to address this problem is to use secret sharing. Everyone gets
>a share. Only a certain threshold need to cooperate to reconstruct.
>Everyone's secret counts the same, so in order to deny service you need to
>have fewer than threshold non-cooperatives. 
>
>You never reconstruct the database in one place. Instead, you figure out a
>clever way to do a distributed query on the database shares, such that at
>the end of the protocol, out pops the result. There are plausibility
>results due to Ben-Or, Goldwasser, Goldreich, Wigderson, and others about
>this under the name "secure multiparty computation." Briefly, if you can
>express a boolean F function with n inputs, then n parties can get
>together and evaluate F(x1,x2,...,xn) such that
>	
>	* everyone learns the output
>	* no one learns anything about an xi not their own
>

Suppose the action to be voted on is an update of the distributed
DB [1].  How do you enforce an *update* on the shares?  Wouldn't
that require the cooperation of all shareholders?  I would think that
enough noncooperative shareholders could fork off their own
group, diverging from the point where they didn't update their shares.

[1] For instance, the DB could be the list of members, the
action could be to add or drop a member.

Also, some group actions might compromise the DB itself, and so it seems to
me that you'd often need a trusted server which accepts
votes on its actions.  Though I realize this implies a central
point of attack/control (the Napster problem).









 






  








From softwareplus at YLUY.algo.at  Sat Jan 13 16:10:33 2001
From: softwareplus at YLUY.algo.at (softwareplus at YLUY.algo.at)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:10:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Make Money Now! -WDLO
Message-ID: <200101140010.QAA17146@cyberpass.net>


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From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Jan 13 16:12:41 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:12:41 -0800
Subject: Vaccum propeller-head conference
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010113160836.03ee13c0@pop3.lvcm.com>

One of the first, perhaps the first, professional conference on massless 
drives for space exploration is being held shortly in England.

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/space-science/workshop/agendax.htm

steve
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From marina at bizoppalliance.MIT.EDU  Sat Jan 13 17:06:11 2001
From: marina at bizoppalliance.MIT.EDU (marina at bizoppalliance.MIT.EDU)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:06:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHECK THIS VISA CARD OUT!!!
Message-ID: <200101140106.RAA25757@toad.com>


VisaRebates.com is giving away FREE Visa cards with flight miles on any airline, 
merchandise points, and more - all FREE. And theyre giving away millions of dollars 
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Have a Great Day!!
Marina Newman

If you wish to be excluded from any more mailings please reply and put REMOVE in 
the subjuct line....







From alphabeta121 at hushmail.com  Sat Jan 13 18:46:16 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hushmail.com (alphabeta121 at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 21:46:16 -0500 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200101140548.VAA29511@user1.hushmail.com>

Pardon me but was signing up for this list a joke, cause all I've recieved 
since i signed on is two kilos of spam for a gram of not-spam.

alpha

query:  what is best anonymous remailer?

From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sat Jan 13 19:03:41 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:03:41 -0500
Subject: (fwd) 'Rave' party organizers indicted under federal drug law
Message-ID: <200101140303.f0E33QD25542@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


-- forwarded message --
Path: newsfeed.slurp.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: nospam417 at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry,alt.drugs.hard,alt.drugs.pot,alt.drugs.psychedelics
Subject: 'Rave' party organizers indicted under federal drug law
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 06:34:37 GMT
Organization: Deja.com
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <93ostu$u23$1 at nnrp1.deja.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.58.46.166
X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 06:34:37 2001 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; sureseeker.com)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 142.58.46.166
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDnospam417
Xref: newsfeed.slurp.net alt.drugs.chemistry:89792 alt.drugs.hard:240476 alt.drugs.pot:367116 alt.drugs.psychedelics:197748

'Rave' party organizers indicted under federal drug law

January 12, 2001
Web posted at: 3:26 p.m. EST (2026 GMT)

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The U.S. Attorney for the Eastern
District of Louisiana and the Drug Enforcement Administration announced
the indictment Friday of three "rave" party organizers, marking the
first time the federal "crack house" law has been used for prosecuting
organizers of such events.

"Raves" are large dance parties often associated with the drug MDMA,
commonly called ecstasy.

The indictments were returned against Robert J. Brunet and James D.
Estobinal of Louisiana and Brian J. Brunett of Tampa. Florida as a
result of "Operation Rave Review," a joint investigation conducted the
DEA and the New Orleans Police Department.

The 1986 law, passed to combat crack cocaine, was designed to punish
the owners or operators of houses used for the manufacture, storage,
distribution or use of illegal drugs. Violators face a maximum penalty
20 years on prison and a $500,000 fine.

Users of ecstasy often describe a feeling of euphoria. Researchers have
reported the drug can cause brain damage by destroying neurons that
produce the neurotransmitter serotonin, responsible for controlling
mood, sleep, pain, sexual activity and violent behavior.


Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
-- end of forwarded message --

-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us





From bear at sonic.net  Sat Jan 13 23:46:36 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 23:46:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200101140548.VAA29511@user1.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101132339230.31265-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 alphabeta121 at hushmail.com wrote:

>Pardon me but was signing up for this list a joke, cause all I've recieved 
>since i signed on is two kilos of spam for a gram of not-spam.

That's because you're on the toad.com node.  I'm going to send this 
note there because otherwise you probably won't see it; but you need 
to sign up for one of the other nodes and get off toad if you want to 
see much of anything that isn't spam.  Outside of toad, the ratio is 
closer to fifty-fifty.

>alpha
>
>query:  what is best anonymous remailer?

go to http://anon.efga.org/Remailers/ for recent updates.  Pick the 
ones you think are best from the information there.  I recommend a 
mixmaster remailer rather than a first-generation 'cypherpunk' 
remailer, but other than that you're on your own.  For different 
uses and different operations, different remailers will be more 
reliable. 

I also recommend never using only one remailer.  

				Bear






From announce at inbox.nytimes.com  Sat Jan 13 21:01:53 2001
From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:01:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Important Membership Information
Message-ID: <200101140501.AAA25337@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com>



Dear bad_andy,

Welcome to NYTimes.com! 

We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. 
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Your account information is listed below for future reference:

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please forward this e-mail to cancel at nytimes.com and write "cancel"
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From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Sat Jan 13 21:21:38 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:21:38 -0500
Subject: Article:  The coming backlash in privacy
Message-ID: <b2ccbcc038659a95a253835b57aa81f7@mixmaster.shinn.net>


[From The Economist magazine]

New privacy services will soon allow consumers to buy goods anonymously online�forcing web-based retailers to change the way they do business

OVER the past couple of months, a Dallas-based company called Digital Convergence has given away more than 1m bar-code scanners to computer users across America. If the company sticks to its business plan, it will have handed out some 40m by this time next year. The scanners cost around $10 apiece. So why the sudden generosity? Because the company expects to get its money back, and more, by selling information about the users� purchasing habits.

Scanning the bar codes on a packet of cornflakes, say, sends the user�s Internet browser to the manufacturer�s website. Each scanner, known as a CueCat, comes with its own unique identifier code and software to operate it. On installing the software, the user is required to register personal details such as name, e-mail address, age, sex and post code. Such details can then be correlated with the information that the CueCat gleans about the products a user scans. The company hopes that such marketing information will eventually be worth more than the $400m it plans to spend seeding the market with CueCats.

But the company had not reckoned with the ingenuity of users of Linux software. Noted for their programming skills and their contempt for Microsoft�s Windows, a group of Linux hackers decided to let CueCat work on computers that use the free Linux operating system instead of the ubiquitous Windows. Being a mischievous bunch, they wrote their software so that it would bypass Digital Convergence�s own computers. And for a laugh, they made a Windows version available as well. Just days after the CueCats were released, free scanning software started appearing on the Internet and was downloaded eagerly by countless users. Digital Convergence was not amused. For the company, every hacked CueCat was another $10 down the drain. 
Data mavens

A number of e-commerce ventures have been based on the proposition that retailers, manufacturers and advertisers are ready to pay large sums to get their hands on marketing data collected by online services that bribe users with some free offer to divulge their personal details. But, as the hacked CueCats show, companies that do this are likely, sooner or later, to be bitten by their own customers. Indeed, life is getting harder for online firms that try to survive by exploiting the marketing data they collect. Consumers have become far more concerned about invasions of their privacy, and they are now being given the technology to protect themselves. 

Recently, two controversial incidents have caused politicians and consumer groups to turn their attention to online privacy. After vociferous complaints, DoubleClick, an online advertising agency based in New York, aborted its plan to merge its records of people�s visits to websites with its database of users� names and addresses. And public opprobrium was heaped on Toysmart, a failed Internet start-up, for violating one of its own privacy pledges when it tried to sell its customer database to another retailer.

	

	

Soon, consumers will no longer have to rely solely on the integrity of online merchants to limit what advertisers glean about their web-surfing practices. A new breed of privacy-service provider, or �infomediary�, is learning to make money from protecting people�s privacy by short-circuiting the way that online retailers secretly accumulate information about visitors to their websites.

One infomediary that works with consumers, Lumeria, based in Berkeley, California, aims to let its users evade marketers selectively�and to earn money in the process. The company�s free software encrypts a user�s profile and stores it on its own computers. Whenever the user wants to access the Internet, he can use Lumeria�s computer as a proxy-server, to stop his personal details from being transmitted direct to any advertisers. The proxy-server intercedes between the user and every web page, allowing only those adverts that match the user�s interest profile to appear on his browser. Anonymous, aggregated information is then sold to marketers, with a royalty paid to the user.
The only survivors

For the more paranoid, iPrivacy of New York has come up with software that can shield a user�s activities so completely that not even the company itself has access to the information. In iPrivacy�s scheme, a user begins by downloading software from a company he knows and trusts�for instance, his credit-card company or bank. The software allows the user to browse in complete privacy. When he wishes to buy something, the program generates a new identity for him�complete with a fictitious name and e-mail address, a coded postal address, and a one-off credit-card number.

This fresh identity is passed, via the online merchant, back to the credit-card company, which matches the details with the user�s real identity and approves the transaction. Meanwhile, the post office is sent a decoded address label, but still a coded name, and ships the goods. The only entity that knows what is actually going on is the user�s original credit-card company, which had all the personal information already. Two added bonuses are that, because the fictitious identity is used only once, it is impossible for online marketers to develop a profile of the user�or for criminals to profit from its theft.

Ruvan Cohen, iPrivacy�s chief executive, has already made a contract with the United States Postal Service for decoding addresses. The company is also working with financial-services firms that want to license the software for their clients. The main reason such a firm might be interested is the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, passed in November 1999, which requires financial institutions to disclose details of who sees the private information they collect from customers. The first disclosure statements must be sent out by July 2001.

Not surprisingly, many financial institutions, anxious about their customers� reactions, are looking for ways to shore up their reputations for confidentiality. American Express has already launched a free one-off system of credit-card payment and intends to provide its customers with a private web-browsing service by the end of 2000. Other credit-card suppliers plan to test iPrivacy�s software early next year so as to be ready for the July deadline. If enough users take advantage of these online filters, the benefits for e-commerce could outweigh the costs. Forrester Research, a technology consultancy based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, reckons that privacy concerns stopped consumers from completing more than $12 billion of online purchases last year.

One worry, however, is that a privacy backlash by consumers could make it harder than ever for online retailers to turn a profit. Amazon.com, the world�s largest online retailer, relies heavily on its marketing database to �personalise� its interactions with its 20m customers. Loyal customers swear by Amazon�s uncanny ability to recommend genuinely useful purchases. But if enough users camouflage themselves, Amazon will no longer be able to send special offers of, say, toys to customers who have just bought some children�s books. And this kind of cross-marketing is a mainstay of Amazon�s business model.

Many online firms have played a zero-sum game that predicated their own profitability on their customers� loss of privacy. The balance may soon tip the other way. The danger is that it could tip too far in the consumer�s favour. Ironically, online consumers could then find themselves being treated rather like offline customers�with free offers and the rest becoming a thing of the past.

Copyright � 1995-2001 The Economist Newspaper Group Ltd. All rights reserved. 






From bear at sonic.net  Sat Jan 13 23:55:37 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 02:55:37 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101130127470.29069-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101132350020.31265-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, dmolnar wrote:

>	1) To post a message, sender S takes a 2-dollar coin and then
>	uses some kind of verifiable secret sharing protocol to split it
>	into shares.
<snip>
>
>	4) If a group agent thinks the message is spam, it sends its
>	share to Engineers Sans Frontiers or whoever. 

>
>No central server now, just needs a verifiable secret sharing scheme.
>Pedersen has one, 

Cite, or URL?  A verifiable secret sharing protocol could solve a *LOT* 
of protocol problems and I want to read it closely. (Thanks in advance 
for any pointers...)

>and another is part of the Proactive Security work I
>mentioned previously. 

On Byzantine Agreements?  I have run into references to the topic, but 
it was never really clear what Byzantine Agreement really means.

				Bear






From jmp at iris.ocn.ne.jp  Sat Jan 13 10:00:30 2001
From: jmp at iris.ocn.ne.jp (Over Twenty)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:00:30 +0900 (JST)
Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPUshKiQ0QC4/TRsoQg==?=
Message-ID: <200101131800.DAA22428@iris.ocn.ne.jp>


ご成人オメデトウゴザイマス
http://www.gem.hi-ho.ne.jp/p-head/tobi/infdex.htm
成人以外は削除してください






From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Jan 14 06:12:11 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:12:11 -0500
Subject: Consensus Actions in Cipherspace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101132350020.31265-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10101140859550.15548-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> >No central server now, just needs a verifiable secret sharing scheme.
> >Pedersen has one, 
> 
> Cite, or URL?  A verifiable secret sharing protocol could solve a *LOT* 
> of protocol problems and I want to read it closely. (Thanks in advance 
> for any pointers...)

Pedersen's verifiable secret sharing:
Non-interactive and information-theoretic secure verifiable secret
sharing. In J. Feigenbaum, editor, Advances in Cryptology -- CRYPTO '91,
volume 576 of Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pages 129-140, 11-15
August 1991. Springer-Verlag, 1992

Stadler's publically verifiable secret sharing:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/stadler96publicly.html

Schoenmakers' publically verifiable secret sharing:
http://www.win.tue.nl/math/dw/pp/berry/papers/crypto99.ps.gz

Wenbo Mao explains what "publically verifiable" or "universally
verifiable" means and why to use it:
http://www.hp.co.uk/people/wm/papers/oak98.ps

Rosario Gennaro's thesis on VSS:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/72839.html

Stinson's bibliography on secret sharing schemes:
http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/~dstinson/ssbib.html

> 
> >and another is part of the Proactive Security work I
> >mentioned previously. 
> 
> On Byzantine Agreements?  I have run into references to the topic, but 
> it was never really clear what Byzantine Agreement really means.
> 

Actually, I meant that a verifiable secret sharing scheme is used in the
proactive security work. 

Thanks,
-David





From agl at linuxpower.org  Sun Jan 14 06:30:49 2001
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:30:49 -0500
Subject: Article:  The coming backlash in privacy
In-Reply-To: <b2ccbcc038659a95a253835b57aa81f7@mixmaster.shinn.net>; from anmetet@mixmaster.shinn.net on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:21:38AM -0500
References: <b2ccbcc038659a95a253835b57aa81f7@mixmaster.shinn.net>
Message-ID: <20010114144038.C3427@linuxpower.org>


On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:21:38AM -0500, An Metet wrote:
> Amazon.com, the worldUs largest online retailer, relies heavily on its marketing database to RpersonaliseS its interactions with its 20m customers. Loyal customers swear by AmazonUs uncanny ability to recommend genuinely useful purchases. But if enough users camouflage themselves, Amazon will no longer be able to send special offers of, say, toys to customers who have just bought some childrenUs books. And this kind of cross-marketing is a mainstay of AmazonUs business model.

<sigh> Could someone please tell them about pseudonyms?

AGL

-- 
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Jan 14 08:49:19 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:49:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.520 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010114104856.446e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:50:22 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.520

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 520  January 12, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, James
Riordon, and Ben Stein   

PLANETARY OCTAVE.  Johannes Kepler succeeded in

[ SSZ: Text deleted ]

TILTING AT OPTICAL WINDMILLS. One of the greatest
challenges facing engineers who design tiny
microelectromechanical systems (MEMS) is finding ways to
power machines that often measure only microns across. The
answer, it seems, may be blowing in the optical wind. Researchers
at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences have built resin-based
structures that operate on principles similar to those that propel
windmills. Rather than extracting energy from wind, however, the
new devices are driven by beams of light. In one demonstration of
the potential for light-powered machinery, an optical vane turned a
series of interlinked cogwheels, each only 5 microns in diameter.  
The researchers (P�l Ormos, pali at everx.szbk.u-szeged.hu,
36-62-433-465) manufactured various shapes for their devices,
including helixes and propellers, by curing resin with focused laser
light. A particularly promising structure that resembles a common
lawn sprinkler (see figure at
http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics) spins at several revolutions
per second when illuminated by a 20 milliwatt laser beam. In
addition to providing torque to miniature gears, pumps, and other
micro-machines, the light-powered rotors could be used to measure
fluid properties on micrometer scales. Alternatively, it may be
possible to study the mechanical properties of certain molecules,
such as proteins or DNA, by fixing one end to a surface, attaching
a rotor to the other end, and using light to apply a twisting force.
(P�ter Galajda; P�l Ormos, Applied Physics Letters, 8 January
2001.)

ARRAYS OF LOW-TEMPERATURE SENSORS can now be
serviced by a single SQUID
detector operating in a multiplex mode for the first time. A
SQUID, short for superconducting quantum interference device,
can detect very small magnetic fields in the following way: a 
SQUID circuit consists basically of a superconducting loop
interrupted at two points by a thin insulator gap through which
pairs (Cooper pairs) of electrons must tunnel (that is, in their
wavelike capacity the electrons can pass through an otherwise
forbidden zone) to maintain a flowing current. This whole process
is sensitive to any magnetic flux threading the circuit. The addition
of more flux will cause a slight voltage increase across the gap.
Thus a SQUID operates as a flux-to-voltage converter, but can also
be used to read small currents. Physicists at UC Berkeley (contact
Jongsoo Yoon, 510-642-8809, yoon at cfpa.berkeley.edu) have now
developed a SQUID-based multiplexer which can interrogate
arrays of many low-temperature sensors all at once. This makes
possible arrays of a thousand or more sensors for
magnetoencephalography (which maps magnetic fields from brain
activity) and arrays of several thousands of a voltage-biased
superconducting bolometers,  or VSBs, employing tens of
multiplexers. Such large VSB arrays are being developed for the
next generation of spacecraft-based astronomical
observations to detect radiation from interstellar dust and to
explore the earliest history of the Universe by measuring the
cosmic microwave background radiation. The multiplexer is also
useful for arrays of sensors for the detection of ultraviolet light and
X-rays.(Yoon et al., Applied Physics Letters, 15 January 2000.)

CORRECTION.  The correct acronym for the rainfall measuring
satellite (Update 518) is TRMM (not TRIM), and its correct
website is http://trmm.gsfc.nasa.gov/  




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jan 14 09:40:59 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:40:59 -0500
Subject: NONSTOP Doc Up
Message-ID: <200101141748.MAA00538@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


NSA's "NACSEM 5112 NONSTOP Evaluation Techniques,"
Reprinted July 1987, released under FOIA:

  http://cryptome.org/nacsem-5112.htm  (196K, 3 images)

About half of the >100-page document has been redacted, 
so brace for the mangle.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jan 14 15:04:42 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 15:04:42 -0800
Subject: FWD: Dell, Unisys and Microsoft -- DUMvoting 1.0!
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010114150442.0255eb00@idiom.com>


Forwarded from the RISKS Digest.
---------------------------------



From bzellner at socal.rr.com  Mon Jan 15 00:56:55 2001
From: bzellner at socal.rr.com (Bryan Zellner)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:56:55 -0800
Subject: <no subject>
Message-ID: <B687FB56.9D%bzellner@socal.rr.com>


I don't know if you will receive this, but you are a bunch of the sickest
motherfuckers out there. 




From asubmachinegun at mail777.net.cn  Sun Jan 14 17:33:15 2001
From: asubmachinegun at mail777.net.cn (asubmachinegun at mail777.net.cn)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 01:33:15 +0000
Subject: earn while you learn
Message-ID: <753h7a12x1fy4anlju8h.4d772uoq4r1uxk@nkyot.babit.com>


Internet/Web Page Design Training University
is seeking Commercial Web Design Specialists NOW!
Earn BIG $$$ while you learn!
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4) Career assistance and placement help just for the asking.
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7) An enjoyable interactive, self-paced, self-taught, at-home system!
8) Teaches you how to effectively create high paying web sites quickly
9) Our University instructors become "Personal Trainers".

Our dynamic "Quick Start" trademarked program can teach you how
to build professional results-oriented commercial web sites
in hours instead of days!

Students receive a package including fully functional,
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This package alone, has an estimated retail value to the student
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Guaranteed placement assistance is part of the total philosophy too!
Students successfully finishing this intense, hands-on training
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(REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS)
This mailing is done by an independent marketing company.
We respect your online privacy and apologize if you have
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Please do not use the reply to this e-mail, an e-mail reply
cannot be read! If you would like to be removed from our mailing
list just click below and send us a remove request email.

(To Be Removed)




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Jan 15 01:24:57 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:24:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: <no subject>
In-Reply-To: <B687FB56.9D%bzellner@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0101150324410.14194-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Bryan Zellner wrote:

> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:56:55 -0800
> From: Bryan Zellner <bzellner at socal.rr.com>
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: <no subject>
> 
> I don't know if you will receive this, but you are a bunch of the sickest
> motherfuckers out there. 

Well, Thank You! 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Jan 14 19:23:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 04:23:02 +0100
Subject: Patches to make PGP 6.58 compile (and work) under Redhat 6.2
Message-ID: <9b3fbe02996593cb4075fb1eeb7ff322@remailer.privacy.at>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 12 Jan 2001 21:46:51 GMT
From: Ian Goldberg <iang at cs.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp
Subject: Patches to make PGP 6.58 compile (and work) under Redhat 6.2

So I've spent quite a while tracking down why the source code for PGP 6.58
under Linux (Redhat 6.2):

a) doesn't compile, and
b) when I get it to compile, produces encrypted messages that the
   standard binary can't read

Len Sassaman and I finally got it working yesterday.  Here's a patch
to make PGP 6.58 both compile *and work* under Redhat 6.2:

diff -urN pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c
--- pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c	Mon Oct 13 21:48:14 1997
+++ pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/cipher/pgpCAST5.c	Thu Jan 11 20:36:06 2001
@@ -275,6 +275,7 @@
 /* Some macros used in the encryption/decryption code */
 #define ROL(x,r) ((x)<<(r) | (x)>>(32-(r)))
 
+#ifdef USE_BROKEN_GCC_ASM
 #ifdef __GNUC__
 #if __i386__
 /* Redefine using GCC inline assembler */
@@ -284,6 +285,7 @@
 	__asm__("rol %%cl,%0" : "=g" (_y) : "0" (x), "c" (r)); _y;})
 #endif /* __i386__ */
 #endif /* __GNUC__ */
+#endif
 
 #define F1(x,xkey,i) (ROL((xkey)[2*(i)] + (x), (xkey)[2*(i)+1]))
 #define F2(x,xkey,i) (ROL((xkey)[2*(i)] ^ (x), (xkey)[2*(i)+1]))
diff -urN pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c
--- pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c	Fri Aug  6 16:56:49 1999
+++ pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/priv/crypto/random/pgpRandomPool.c	Thu Jan 11 20:36:47 2001
@@ -424,7 +424,7 @@
  * #define UMULH_32(r,a,b) (r) = 0
  */
 #ifndef UMULH_32
-#if defined(__GNUC__) && defined(__i386__)
+#if defined(__GNUC__) && defined(__i386__) && defined(USE_BROKEN_GCC_ASM)
 /* Inline asm goodies */
 #define UMULH_32(r,a,b) __asm__("mull %2" : "=d"(r) : "%a"(a), "mr"(b) : "ax")
 #elif HAVE64
diff -urN pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp
--- pgpsrc/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp	Tue Mar  9 21:52:17 1999
+++ pgpsrc-fixed/libs/pgpcdk/unix/ui/PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp	Thu Jan 11 20:43:33 2001
@@ -5,6 +5,7 @@
 	$Id: PGPKeyServerDialogs.cpp,v 1.2 1999/03/10 02:52:17 heller Exp $
 ____________________________________________________________________________*/
 #include <string.h>
+#include <stdlib.h>
 
 #include "pgpDialogs.h"
 #include "pgpKeyServerDialogCommon.h"



And, as a bonus feature, here's a patch to fix a bug which prevented my
PGP scripts from working under 6.x.  The bug is this: even when +compat
and -force are given, PGP will ask you "are you sure you want to use this
key?" where 2.6 didn't.  This breaks scripts, of course.  Here's the
simple fix:


diff -urN pgpsrc-fixed/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c pgpsrc-ian1/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c
--- pgpsrc-fixed/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c	Thu Sep 30 20:10:21 1999
+++ pgpsrc-ian1/clients/pgp/cmdline/doencode.c	Thu Jan 11 20:50:20 2001
@@ -283,6 +283,7 @@
     PGPBoolean batchmode = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_BATCHMODE, &pri, &err );
     PGPBoolean verbose = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_VERBOSE, &pri, &err );
     PGPBoolean quietmode = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_NOOUT, &pri, &err);
+    PGPBoolean force = pgpenvGetInt( env, PGPENV_FORCE, &pri, &err);
     PGPKeySetRef tmpset;
 
     err = PGPNewEmptyKeySet( toSet, &tmpset );
@@ -317,7 +318,7 @@
         if(verbose)
             pgpShowKeyValidity( filebPtr, key );
 
-        if( validity < kPGPValidity_Marginal ) {
+        if( validity < kPGPValidity_Marginal && !force) {
             char useridstr[ kPGPMaxUserIDSize ];
             PGPBoolean answer;
             err = pgpGetUserIDStringFromKey( key, useridstr );


Now all my scripts work again!  Yay!

   - Ian




From nobody at dizum.com  Sun Jan 14 19:50:08 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 04:50:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Mac OS X patch for PGP 6.5.8
Message-ID: <d0c5ab4004942d754292e7d9dd9700d9@dizum.com>


begin 600 pgp658-osxclient-patch.tar.gz
M'XL("-,(8#H``W!G<#8U."UO<WAC;&EE;G0M<&%T8V at N=&%R`.Q=>Y/:N++?
M?^%3Z&13.1`P8%XSPX2MD!DF89=YU,!L=N_NUI2Q!7@#-FN;>6Q.OOOMEFS\
MP`9IDCVW;M60"9:M_K4>W6JI)2-=]WNGY_W*Y>B7[_ZQ3TVMU=K-YG>U6DT]
M:!]$K_BIU]KU[VH']7JCW6HWFFV at 5YMJ\SM2^^>R%'[6KJ<YA'PW<4S-VD&W
M+_[_Z2>?)R![<K6>+$R=O*.>1E::I\_)U';(:K92VI56Y1"H3JE.EQ/JD(9:
M)G406R4/3Z_I7VO3H4MJ>6X'[N&C;#'\.!A_`/P=7=@KI"1CVUZXQ+2 at ZA<+
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`
end




From reeza at flex.com  Mon Jan 15 08:01:09 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:01:09 -1000
Subject: Safety issue:  7.62 NATO == .308 Win   NOT!!!
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b682e4be45e8@[207.111.241.45]>
References: <3A5D2F41.BFF2DB1C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010110203943.446Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010115055249.00c73ee0@flex.com>


Another quibble.  This is a safety issue, so READ it.

One of our members wrote:

 >It was introduced in 7.62 mm NATO, very, very close to .308
 >Winchester. (Some say there are headspace differences, though I have
 >used 7.62 mm NATO in my Remington 700 VSSF, ostensibly chambered for
 >.308 Winchester, and I have used .308 Winchester in my Federal Arms
 >FA-91/G3, ostensibly chambered for 7.62 mm NATO.

Here's a 7.62 NATO gun that blew up with .308 Win ammo not long ago:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html


These two cartridges are NOT the same, more here:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm

Reese




From achameloen at toughsales.com  Mon Jan 15 05:06:55 2001
From: achameloen at toughsales.com (achameloen at toughsales.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:06:55 -0500
Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!!
Message-ID: <6gfltnd0wp3.48sy8v67446c@mx10.toughsales.com>

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From info1 at networkshosts.com  Mon Jan 15 07:09:49 2001
From: info1 at networkshosts.com (info1 at networkshosts.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:09:49 -0500
Subject: MAKE WINDOWS MORE RELIABLE!!!
Message-ID: <t7nnke35twt.5g2q3j0ln86v2gj3ml7@mx03.newsalesjob.net>


Dear Windows User,

Now you can boost the reliability of ordinary Windows ME, 95 and 98 to
nearly the level of Windows NT or 2000, Microsoft's professional and 
industrial version of Windows.

The new WinFix 4.4 is a very effective way to improve the reliability of
Windows, because it makes Windows fault-tolerant and self-repairing. And
WinFix is very safe, because it operates completely independent of Windows.

http://www4.newsalesjob.net/comph to find out more about WinFix,
the safest, most effective way to keep you working, by keeping your PC
working non-stop.


Arlen Dixon, CEO

Westwood Software Marketing


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This announcement is being sent to PC users who asked to be kept
informed about new developments in Windows(tm) technology.

To be removed from our mailing list, go to the Email-us page


OR

To be removed

mailto:remove at www4.newsalesjob.net?Subject=REMOVE






From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Jan 15 11:01:33 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:01:33 -0800
Subject: Voice over OTP during WW2. 
In-Reply-To: <20010115175508.A35B735DC2@smb.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010115110133.01b126f0@idiom.com>



>In message
<F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB3E at exna07.securitydynamics.com>
>, "Trei, Peter" writes:
>>http://www.nsa.gov/wwii/papers/start_of_digital_revolution.htm
....
At 12:55 PM 1/15/01 -0500, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
>There's an exhibit on this system in the War Room museum in London.

There's also one at the NSA museum in Fort Meade.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jan 15 08:51:55 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:51:55 -0500
Subject: Voice over OTP during WW2.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB3E@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


http://www.nsa.gov/wwii/papers/start_of_digital_revolution.htm

Fascinating article at the NSA site about the 
heroic efforts to provide long-distance secure voice 
communications over radio.

The good folks at Bell Labs essentially invented
digitized, compressed voice, and encrypted it
using synchronized pairs of records of
random data at each end. Each terminal site
had 55 *tons* of equipment!

Apparently this astounding - and apparently 
successful - effort was mostly declassified 
back in '76, but I first heard about it in 
Stevenson's Cryptonomicon last year.

A remarkable story.

Peter Trei




From achamele0n at toughsales.com  Mon Jan 15 09:30:01 2001
From: achamele0n at toughsales.com (achamele0n at toughsales.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:30:01 -0500
Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!!
Message-ID: <3ahy3e6dd5ec.16g64b7@mx06.toughsales.com>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Jan 15 09:50:47 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:50:47 -0500
Subject: Bell Update
Message-ID: <200101151758.MAA22605@smtp6.mindspring.com>


According to the Jim Bell court docket of January 11:

1. Innocent victim Jim (via attorney Robert Leen) has 
made motions:

1a. To suppress (unknown what).
1b. To dismiss the indictment.
1c. To continue the trial date.
1d. To change venue.
1e. To represent himself.

Though AUSA Robb has responded to these motions none
have been ruled on, as far as I can tell.

2. Judge Jack E. Tanner (who replaced J. Kelly
Arnold), has ordered a competency exam of Jim.

3. Jack has denied a Robb motion for Jim's handwriting 
sample until the competency report is submitted.

4. Jack has ordered that disovery materials not be shown
to Jim until further notice from Jack, because, according to 
Robb, Jim stated he intends to publish such materials on the 
Internet. The discovery materials, according to Robb,
contain "voluminous private information and per