Illusional delusions

[Black Unicorn]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of AARG! Anonymous
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:40 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Illusional delusions
>
>
> The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined
> by the state, from the equation.

Yes yes, here we go.  A cutesy technical argument about why this that or
another doesn't fit the strict definition of this that or the other offense.
I'm sure the prosecutor, the judge and the jury will be eager to listen.

> Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties
> that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to
> convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to
> rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money
> launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper
> cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is
> not a solution.

Therefore murder, if not witnessed, never happened.  If a body falls in the
forest...?

Please.

> This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop
> copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof
> watermarks.

The fact that party X commits a crime without being witnessed does not
eliminate the crime.  It merely makes prosecution a bit harder.

> Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in
> any form or shape.

Good luck finding a currency that is not "state-money."  The state does a
wonderful thing.  It provides legitimacy to investment vehicles.  It does so
through imposing (or eliminating) liability for transactions failures of
various sorts.  If you don't recognize the importance of that (or propose a
private solution that does a similar thing) then you aren't worth listening
to.  Remember that multiple-issuer currencies have been tried before in just
about any economy you choose to name.  There is a reason none exist anymore.
(Bad money displaces good, or any other of 15 college or early graduate
level economics courses will enlighten you if you choose to pursue them with
anything like interest).

> Thinking aloud ... this may be silly:
>
> Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange,
> maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by
> defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties
> should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own
> currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating
> new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly
> connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it
> was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone
> whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business
> for reputation building. Again, hardly new.

Not new?  Name 5 prominent reputation brokers.  Reputation services?
Reputation clearing agents?  What manner of reputation do they measure?
Trustworthiness?  Identity?  Creditworthiness?  One?  None?  All?  (I can
only think of two, neither of which approach the level of sophistication you
propose here).

> This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain
> much from it anyway.

Oh boy.

> Going through a series of intermediaries to buy
> some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the
> state's sight.

You want work too hard to stay out of the state's sight.

> In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for
> centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business
> will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad.

Tell me a bit more about how wonderful the world would be without economies
of scale.

> So, tell me, is this silly ?

Uh... sure.

(Incidentally, it's "Illusory Delusions."  "Ilusional" isn't a word.  It's
also "Imbalance" not "Disbalance").  I'm prone to typo occasionally too, but
try not to make words up unless your in uncharted waters, eh?